I wouldn't count on it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/71731p-66550c.html
But I didn't expect the service to be ready to start as early as February. This is good news.
The D - replacing the W in Brooklyn - will run express from Coney Island through much of Brooklyn along the Fourth Ave. line, go over the bridge and travel along the Sixth Ave. line in Manhattan to 145th St. It then will continue to the Bronx.
Express through much of Brooklyn? Both these logical routings are already running like this in Brooklyn along 4th Ave. And, I would hardly classify a three mile express run as 'much of Brooklyn.'
The N gets shifted from tunnel to bridge. The is replaced by the B, The W is replaced by the D. So now there are fewer trains through the tunnel to downtown. On top of that, there is still no direct service downtown from the Brighton. Or will the M shift over? Or will they run additional routes not yet mentioned???
I know right now the tunnel trains run fairly empty to Brooklyn in the PM, at least that's my observation, and the Brighton trains are always crowded.
There is, and it doesn't. It does send more trains over the bridge and fewer through the tunnel, since far more people want to use the bridge (they're heading to midtown) than the tunnel.
1-Middays there is a 50% reduction on service through the tunnel between Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Since the 1920's there was at least two Broadway locals(4th Ave and Brighton) and one Nassau Street service (West End) which operated through the tunnel until Chrystie Street opened in 1967.
Between 1967 and 1986 there was the RR(Broadway Local) and the QJ(1967 to 1973) and M (1973 to 1986)via Nassau Street. Between 1986 and 1995 it was the N and R (via Broadway) and M(via Nassau Street).
Between 1995 and 2001 it was just the N and R and since 2001 the current M,N and R
2-Weekends it will be a 50% reduction on Brooklyn/6th Avenue service via Grand Street if this plan is implemented. Between 1968 and 1986 and from 1988 to 2001 it was always the B and D that operated except for owl periods via the 6th Ave Bridge tracks. Yet it will be a 33% increase on service via Broadway between the N,Q and R services from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
3-What happens to Brighton Line Passengers who want to go to 6th Avenue weekends. Since 1988 most West End trains do not stop at DeKalb Avenue
4-This plan still does not address the problem of Queens Blvd Local to Manhattan during the midnight hours from the East Side with a one seat ride which existed from 1987 to 1990 when the R operated 24 hours a day.
5-Does Brighton Line passenghers perfer Broadway to 6th Avenue. I do not believe they do.
6-There is no Central Park West to 6th Ave local service weekends which was growing in 2001 prior to the Bridge changes. This is an opportunity to pick up additional riders for the TA. They are blowing it big time.
Several years ago the TA tried to switch the 2 and 5 local and express services on White PLains Road in the Bronx. Public pressure killed it. We can do it again
Thank You
The D train WILL stop at Dekalb Ave, at least on nights and weekends.
"6-There is no Central Park West to 6th Ave local service weekends which was growing in 2001 prior to the Bridge changes. This is an opportunity to pick up additional riders for the TA. They are blowing it big time."
B weekend service to 145th st was due to the major completion of the 63rd st line, which only had either the rarely runs shuttle or any of the E, F or R lines diverted through the connector. We can argue all we want about the need for 2 CPW local services, how about arguing for more frequent serivce on the 4 line on Saturday? Why is there 10 minute service on the 4 line on Saturday until 12:30 PM, while the #7 line has 5 minute service from 6 AM on?
Headways are every 10 minutes apart, and there are more riders using the #4 line, than the #5 line. So is every 7-8 minutes from 9 AM till 1 PM too much to ask for on the #4 line? After 1 PM, service on the #4 line run as frequent at 6 minutes. Or is it more letters received by NYCT are from #7 line customers than #4 line customers about levels of service?
Is combined 4/5 service sufficient on weekends? If not, one or both should get more service.
Is the Jerome line itself underserved on weekends? Not that I've seen. The Flushing line is much, much busier than the Jerome line, so one would expect more service on the Flushing line than on the Jerome line.
"6-There is no Central Park West to 6th Ave local service weekends which was growing in 2001 prior to the Bridge changes. This is an opportunity to pick up additional riders for the TA. They are blowing it big time."
If there were enough demand, these two itmes could be coupled to have the draft B run weekends, but my feeling is the demand is not perceived to be high enough.
Especially this rabid Yankee fan who loved the NY MUTTS succumb yesterday to a 15-2 drubbing by the Cubbies at Shea. Now they want to take MY baseball specials away and run express on the Witches End Line from 36th st to Bay Parkway with a stop at 62nd st. Even Crazy Eddie Antar would think it's insane!!!
In recent years there have been 2 services in the tunnel midday only because of bridge related issues. The percent of S Brooklyn customers going to lower Manhattan has decreased since 1986.
(4-This plan still does not address the problem of Queens Blvd Local to Manhattan during the midnight hours from the East Side with a one seat ride which existed from 1987 to 1990 when the R operated 24 hours a day. )
Unrelated. If they wanted, they could use exactly the same plan, except extend the Q to Continental late nights, or make the R instead of the N the late night service. I guess they just don't want to, but that choice doesn't have any effect on the rest of the plan.
(5-Does Brighton Line passenghers perfer Broadway to 6th Avenue. I do not believe they do. )
Weekdays they probably prefer 6th Ave, and that can be reflected in the train frequencies. Weekends I doubt you can prove a strong preference either way.
(6-There is no Central Park West to 6th Ave local service weekends which was growing in 2001 prior to the Bridge changes. )
Looks like they're being stingy. As many have pointed out, CPW doesn't have the traffic for 2 local and 2 express services on the weekend; it really needs 2 locals and 1 express.
I walk to different stations and take different trains, and I can tell you the Brighton is much more crowded than the 4th Avenue Line, especially AM. At 7th Avenue you can barely get on.
That's why I had recommended 9, 9, 9, 9 on the bridge, and extending the Z via Brighton Express. That way the Brigton gets six extra trains, though they would be short ones. They'd be the equivalent of about five 600 foot trains.
I'm assuming that they will be standardizing on equal service levels (in terms of tph) for all the Southern Division services. If they do otherwise, then they will get non-uniform headways which will result in delays.
This means that they should adjust the schedules so that an N/R/B travels through DeKalb at the same time, followed by a D/M/Q combination. This will permit a Midtown<->Downtown transfer at both Pacific (4th Ave riders) and DeKalb (Brighton riders). 4th Ave riders wishing to transfer between midtown Bway and 6th Ave service will do a double switch, first at Pacific and then at DeKalb.
This presents some problems, if we assume this rate will be 10 tph. First, the capacity of the MB is 60 tph; so they will be operating at only 67% of capacity at rush hour.
Second, the M operates at only 7.5 tph not 10. The J/Z combination does operate at 10 tph - so it might have been a better choice. OTOH, they might decide to expand M service.
Third, there is a big problem with the 60th St tunnel. They will be running 3 services, each at 10 tph. Consider the downtown merge. The Astoria services will be operating at 20 tph or every 3 minutes; the Queens Blvd R will be operating every at 10 tph or every 6 minutes. The combined 30 tph service must operate at 2 minute intervals. This means that one of the trains must be held for 1 minute to maintain uniform headways. (The likely candidate should be the W because it will not merge with any other trains). Next the N will diverge to the express at either 57th or Times Sq. This will leave the locals running at with non-uniform headways (0,2,6,8,12...). One of the trains will have to be held one minute to restore uniform headways. It's the W again.
Finally, the 10 tph locks in the V at 10 tph due to the R/V merge. This means keeping the same unbalanced merges between the E/V and the F/V. This means additional delays for 6th Ave local service and the 53rd St tunnel.
Suppose the TA needs to scale up rush hour service due to overcrowding - on say the Brighton Line. They are running at capacity in the 60th St tunnel so they are blocked from doing this, even though the Brooklyn East River crossings are operating at 67% of capacity.
One would think that more flexible solutions have to exist. Of course the TA has one year to close their eyes and dig in their heels.
That kind of perfect synchronization sounds unlikely to work. Passengers are more likely to get off one bridge train at Pacific and wait 3-4 minutes for the other. Otherwise, if your local is delayed by 30 seconds, it will pull into Deklab just as the express you want is closing its doors. I also doubt they'll run as many Ms as bridge expresses.
(Third, there is a big problem with the 60th St tunnel. They will be running 3 services, each at 10 tph. Consider the downtown merge.)
Another possibility: N, West End, and W each run at 8 tph while the 2 Brighton lines each run at 12 tph. Reduces problems at 60th St to their current levels.
A third possibility: significant asymmetry in N service. It could be 10 tph northbound while it and the W are 7 tph southbound. There may also be asymmetry on the B and D: you want at least as many Brighton-6th Ave trains as West End-6th Ave trains, but you need fewer Concourse locals than Cocourse expresses.
If one schedules merging conflicts, they are likely to occur. The way to avoid them is to start at the merge point and work one's way backward. The synchronization was designed to avoid merging conflicts not to provide cross-platform transfers. The latter is simply a happy result of the former.
Another possibility: N, West End, and W each run at 8 tph while the 2 Brighton lines each run at 12 tph. Reduces problems at 60th St to their current levels.
The unbalanced service levels will create merging conflicts at DeKalb.
"A third possibility: significant asymmetry in N service. It could be 10 tph northbound while it and the W are 7 tph southbound. There may also be asymmetry on the B and D: you want at least as many Brighton-6th Ave trains as West End-6th Ave trains, but you need fewer Concourse locals than Cocourse expresses."
All excellent points, and BTW an obvious logical conclusion: IF you need more Brighton trains than West End trains AND more Concourse expresses than Concourse locals, THEN the D should remain on the Brighton and the B on the West End. I say: make the B 24/7 West End with service to Bedford Park (rush), 145th (middays and evenings) and 205th (nights and weekends). Overall, less confusion and better balance all around.
Brighton Express & Local - via Bridge north, 6 Ave, CPW & Concourse.
4 Ave Local(s) - via Tunnel to B'way Local and Nassau St.
4 Ave Expresses - via Bypass, Bridge South, B'way express.
Now if you want B'way -- 6 Ave transfers, you're either doomed to a B'way local for a cross-platform transfer at DeKalb or you have to walk through the Pacific/Atlantic complex.
The lack of flexibility that I referred to is that service levels are maxed out with the Bridge and Montague St Tunnel operating at 67% of capacity. There is no upward flexibility for Brooklyn service.
First of all, the 60 tph you suggest is considerably more than the current 48 tph. I'm not convinced the MTA is really going to send 60 tph through Dekalb. My guess, based on no evidence whatsoever, but based on standard MTA stinginess, is 2x12 on the Brighton, and 4x8 on 4th Ave.
Secondly, there is much more capacity if truly needed. The West End-6th Ave and Brighton-6th Ave could each be close to 15 tph if traffic demanded: there is no impediment further north, though 59th St would slow down. The 4th-Ave-Broadway via bridge and Brighton-Broadway via bridge could each be 15 tph, with 25 of the 30 turning at 57th St. and the other 5 going to Astoria. The Montague tunnel could be 10 tph to Astoria, 10 to Continental, and 10 to Nassau St.
Weekdays they probably prefer 6th Ave, and that can be reflected in the train frequencies. Weekends I doubt you can prove a strong preference either way."
Brighton line passengers on weekends prefer Broadway service. 14th street union square is a major hub for night life and also allows for easy transfers for the 4/5/6 Lex lines plus the L to williamsburg.
Personally I prefer broadway service during rushhour also. I work near herald square and it is a quicker ride on via broadway express then 6th Ave.
Although 6th ave express is probably prefered by those working a rock center.
I'm curious, how do you know, given that there hasn't been a fair option of choosing one vs. the other for 17 years now?
The only decenter was my cousing who works in rock center who lost direct building access to his train.
One concern that I have heard since the daily news story yesterday is that the wait for a brighon train at manahttan stations is going to increase due to the line being split over two separate lines in manahattan increasing one's commuting time home and to work.
That is warranted. Broadway is more popular on weekends than 6th from what I've seen. In fact, I saw it even before the 6th Avenue Bridge tracks closed for the second time. The B and D trains I rode on weekends before they were cut to 34th, were nearly empty, while over on the Broadway Line, the N and R trains were standing room only and even packed on weekends. R and W trains today are still crowded, but not like the N and R were when they were the only Broadway trains. And having the Q there on weekends, I think, helps. And it will still be needed on weekends.
What that additional route it will be. I hope it will be a T.
And by the way what about the M R and Circle Q in all of this. if N run 24/7 over the bridge, then will R run via Manhattan 24/7 as well. There has to be one broadway local service when W is not running at least.
As for Q, TA should let us that whether or not Q will be full-time brighton line service.
In the draft plan, it's the Sea Beach late nights.
The Concourse local (B train) runs every 9-11 minutes during rush hours. Since Brighton Express trains must maintain 6 minute headways or better, we may see huge improvement in reverse-peak service above 59th st/CC and some slight improvement (maybe 8 minutes or better?) in the peak direction on the B train. Because of the nature of Brighton Express service starting early in the morning, the first B train from BPB may leave around 5:30 to 5:45 AM (pre B and C switch in 1998, the first C train to Brooklyn left BPB early, at 5:07 AM). We may also see some Brighton express service still running past 10 PM, but I doubt it.
The biggest winners are Bay Ridge riders, who suffer from inferior rush hour service (8 minutes at best). In Feb. 2004, the R train will only have to compete with M service (10 minutes) and probably less W train service in rush hours (also most likely 8 minutes), Bay Ridge and Sunset park local riders will be see 5 minute headways on the R line.
The D train loses it's identity for the past 36 years as a Brighton line resident (sob!), but will gain 24/7 access to the West End line. Only the R line will be the only shuttle running at night, the N will go through the rat-hole on nights and weekends (I do see a better and easier service plan to have the N on weekends run via. bridge, BUT local from Prince Street, all the way up to Astoria.) Except for Cortlandt and Whitehall st, the numbers really don't justify two services through the Montague rathole on weekends. But 2 local services are needed above Canal Street. To have (like the W line now.) the N using 2 dirrerent platforms at Canal Street is confusing enough for customers using that station. I've seen a LOT of people waiting for the R or W train (on non-G.O. weekends affecting R and W service) on the Bridge platform.
Let the public vote on this plan, guess I will have to live with this plan next year and will miss my D train.
"(I do see a better and easier service plan to have the N on weekends run via. bridge, BUT local from Prince Street, all the way up to Astoria.)"
I thought that is what the draft plan calls for on weekends, "via Bridge and Broadway Local." Perhaps I misunderstand; Do you believe that following the hearings the N will be assigned to go via the current draft late night plan (Broadway Local via Tunnel) on weekends as well?
"To have (like the W line now.) the N using 2 dirrerent platforms at Canal Street is confusing enough for customers using that station."
Would it be more convenient then if the N ran via the Montague Street Tunnel on weekends as well, with no Broadway Local using the Manhattan Bridge, and thus the lower level platforms?
Currently the first s/b B leaves Bedford Park at 0526. The first Brighton Express leaves BBC at 0600 and returns at 0730. Combining the two will either result in a) an earlier s/b Brighton Express, or b) a later start to s/b Concourse local/express service.
---Brian
Darn, I have to miss a Kaplan SAT class for that one (free). Is a score of 1240 a good starting point for a sophomore? Or should I skip the rodeo and attend the class?
The original poster said that he might be able to attend as part of a school field trip. I would imagine that the school was able to get an exception to the employees-only policy. If so, it sounds like a very good opportunity.
A school group, I dought it.
P.S. If you are an employee it's an event you should do with the family at least once !
---Brian
Last year a certain SubTalker had his MTH subway cars set up & gave tours (just walk bys with yada yada) of the museum/RPC fleet (the ones NOT at Court Street.
As I said before, it's a great event if you're able to tag along with an employee.
I also had that same option last year, but conflicting events, same
as this year. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Also, not being blessed with children, I'm not that familiar with the
SAT scoring etc. But for those who are replying to DTrain22's post,
he is a student at "Transit Tech", so add this into the equation
of your responses. And we are not anti student or anti female at
Branford. Ask R-30, our student participant or Notchette, Samanta
or Leslie. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
These days you won't hear many a 4 letter words or smell cigar smoke. It's just a different World.
At Rockhill Trolley Museum, the operating staff consists of a number
of female operators. IIRC there's a Mother/Daughter team in ops.
Mr. RT, I am the traveling Trolleynaut and good will ambassador.
Any significant teams or finer gender at CTM? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
It's still very unusual to see a blond wisp of a girl bring a 9 1/2 ton single truck hand brake car to a full stop in two car lengths.
15 minute wheel gauging, 45 minute exam, magic box test, so much more.
Nice jacket/tee shirt/hat. Free breakfast and lunch. Free stuff from TA. Gotta go to Home Depot and write down the names of plumbing and electrical fittings. I could be a 'killer' changing out a Redbird shoe beam....takes a crew of three when I can do it by myself. Brake shoes, pneumatic hoses, oil changeouts, computer downloads....no problem. Gonna do it!!!!! CI peter
And Good luck!
The description says that the tram only takes tokens. What’s going to happen when the MTA discontinues tokens?
John
The last time I rode the tramway, they were using their own tokens.
Bill "Newkirk"
If that's the case, they used to have their own tokens. They can go back to those if they have enough stockpiled.
---Brian
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Actually, it was free, because you were already inside fare control.
Anyhow, I'm glad you enjoyed your redbird ride.
---Brian
A friend from Boston was at the game with me. He's a bit of a railfan. I showed him the C/R pointing at the board and he nearly fell over laughing.
After I dropped him off at Penn Station, I had to get back to my car at Shea. I took the LIRR to Flushing. When I went downstairs to the 7, there were three sets of redbirds lined up. It seemed like the clock had turned back!
See Here
1101-05 were delivered to East 180th St last night, and a fellow SubTalker reports another set has gone into service on the 4. 7131-35 and 7156-60 were at Nevins St when he saw them yesterday.
7131-35 were assigned to the 5 several days ago, but this has apparently changed. My take is that the 5 will receive 6811-15 in place of 7131-35 now assinged to the 4. Initally, 6811-15 and 7156-60 were burn testing together.
1100 Series Car Pileup! There's a whole bunch to be found at East 180th St and Unionport. One of these sets should be burn testing now...
-Stef
Right you are, 6811-6815 were in service on the 5 with 7106-7110 March 31. Newest deliveries are 1101-1105 and 1136-1140, which (apparently) came down on Sunday's CP train. 6876-6880 were delivered to East 180 on March 28.
7141-7145, 7161-7165 are waiting for some last minute mods at East 180 to be accepted. That oughta soon be Trainset #3.
It looks like the 6800s and 6900s will be placed in service on the 5, and traded for 7100s to the 4. The 1100s will also go to Jerome.
FYI, details on the last #5 Redbird on March 25, 2003 were: Gap 239 to 138. In service 0803 @ 125 to Flatbush (0856). 0903 Flatbush to Dyre (1023). Laid up @ East 180.
Consist was (N) 8820/8821-8862/8863-8878/8879-8892/8893-8914/8915 (S).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
BLAH
Why don't they just put the D back where it was on Brighton, and the B back on West end? They're both ultimately going to the same place (along Sixth Avenue and up to either 145 or Bedford Park).
Here's a wacky idea: run the B to 145th St on weekends. Leave the B & D where they belong. Run the B as a shuttle at night. It worked for 30 years.
I don't understand. You're saying there was B service on weekends to 145th for 30 years? I thought it was for a year during the 63rd St GOs.
If NYCT were willing to run 4 services on CPW on weekends there would be lots of plans that would work.
The long-standing notion that the Sea Beach must have 24/7 service to/from Manhattan is even more ridiculous. The West End is more heavily used (because its catchment area is more heavily populated) than the Sea Beach. Why must the Sea Beach be treated like God?
Uh, oh. Them sound like fightin' words directed toward a gentleman in California!
I agree the West End line needs a full weekend route. The Sea Beach doesn't. Now do I have to re-iterate my B/N swap yet again?
The MTA says they will present the plan to local community boards in June. There's your chance to make your opinions known. Sign up on the speaker's list early (before the actual meeting) and you can speak early while people are still paying attention.
I hope, though, that there's no overlap where Sea Beach riders are served by the same community board as Brighton riders. That could make for an interesting riot.
It also doesn't shortchange Broadway itself on weekends.
It also keeps that Sea Beach access via Broadway, where the Sea Beach riders want to go. They're not interested in 6th.
Your alternative proposal pushes aside all three of these plusses because you don't like a letter. How silly!
It also doesn't shortchange Broadway itself on weekends.
It also keeps that Sea Beach access via Broadway, where the Sea Beach riders want to go. They're not interested in 6th.
Your alternative proposal pushes aside all three of these plusses because you don't like a letter. How silly!
Hogwash:
- The Sea Beach line needs a bridge route. Whether it's the B or N is irrelevant. Right now, the B is a vast improvement.
- The Sea Beach ridership is noticably lower than the other 2 routes to Coney Island. It does NOT need a 24/7 route to Manhattan.
- 4th Ave doesn't need 3 Manhattan bound routes on the weekends.
- In my plan, 3 Broadway weekend lines would be reduced to 2. The one eliminated would be the Q. the N/R would run local. This would NOT affect Manhattan-only BMT riders that much.
Yes, my plan provides less service than the proposed one. I think the proposed plan is excessive.
Sorry, I guess my other post is irrelevant. I thought you were proposing a 2nd Brighton line on the weekend.
I use the Manhattan Broadway BMT frequently on the weekend. I can't claim an inalienable right to 3 services there. But I can attest that before July 2001, when there were 2 services, the quality of service was pretty poor.
For various reasons the N and R tended to come one right after the other, with no service at all for 10 minutes after the 2 of them came. And when they were properly spaced, they would be far more crowded than any other B division line in Manhattan except for the L.
Also consider service from Dekalb if there is no bridge train to Broadway. The MTA has done ridership surveys. They certainly asked questions like: if you only have an express to either Broadway or 6th Ave on the weekends, which do you prefer. I suspect that the answer was Broadway, not overwhelmingly but enough to make a difference.
In my proposal, which matches the current proposal by the MTA, the N would run over the bridge on weekends. It would run local north of Canal St, however.
NYCT has taken ridership surveys. Have you?
Based on the little I've heard, I would venture to say that Sea Beach riders would consider 6th Avenue bridge service only a small improvement, if at all, over Broadway tunnel service. Broadway bridge service is what they want.
The Sea Beach ridership is noticably lower than the other 2 routes to Coney Island. It does NOT need a 24/7 route to Manhattan.
Weekend ridership on the West End, IME, seems no greater than weekend ridership on the Sea Beach, but I haven't seen any actual ridership numbers. Certainly, when the W was a weekend shuttle, trains ran almost entirely empty. Even now, I rarely see more than a dozen passengers in my car and I often have the car to myself.
The Dyre Avenue branch has service to Manhattan on weekends. Ridership on the branch itself is very low, but there needs to be some service on the branch, and the 4 and 6 alone aren't sufficient in Manhattan -- so Dyre branch passengers get the bonus of direct through service to Manhattan.
Similarly with the Sea Beach.
4th Ave doesn't need 3 Manhattan bound routes on the weekends.
I never said it did. Why do you keep bringing this up?
In my plan, 3 Broadway weekend lines would be reduced to 2. The one eliminated would be the Q. the N/R would run local. This would NOT affect Manhattan-only BMT riders that much.
Only 33%. That's a lot. Trains are already crowded with three services.
With more tracks available, your plan provides less weekend service than has been in place during either of the half-closed plans. Why do you think that's appropriate?
what about the 2? it doesn't run that fast and needs the 5 as help, without the 5, everyone would have to wait 10-12 minutes(sometimes up to 20) for a slow 2.
It's great that some people get the bonus of two services where their ridership levels would only support one. It's still just a bonus. Service would be adequate on weekends with just the 2; passengers for the East Side could transfer at 149-GC.
But, since some sort of service is needed on the Dyre line, and the East Side would starve with only the 4 on the express tracks, through 5 service might as well run, even if the intervening section would get more service than its ridership demands.
-----
Service would be adequate on weekends with just the 2; passengers for the East Side could transfer at 149-GC
-----
What about Yankee Games, if the 5 didn't run how would people take the east side, cram on the packed 4? Please the Bronx doesn't need to be screwed out of more service. Of course unless you are suggesting that they all take the long ride on the (6) which is not always an option if someone is in a rush.
Making the 5 a shuttle was brought up as an analogy to certain people's proposals for the Sea Beach.
The argument went like this: if you want to make the Sea Beach a shuttle (and add service to the Brighton line) because it doesn't have enough patrons, then it's equally valid to make the 5 a shuttle (and move all the trains to the Jerome line) because the Dyre line has even fewer patrons.
It's equally silly to make either the Dyre or the Sea Beach a shuttle on weekends.
Ridership surveys.
IMHO you're over-emphasizing weekend service. 3 trains thru Dekalb, running at 6-8 tph, would serve southern Brooklyn adequatley.
But it would underserve the Broadway line in Manhattan, as I keep saying.
With only half the bridge available, the current service pattern has 3 Broadway services (QRW) and 1.5 6th Avenue services (DF) on weekends, for a total of 4.5 services between the two lines.
With only half the bridge available, the previous service pattern had 2 Broadway services (NR) and 3 6th Avenue services (BDF) on weekends, for a total of 5 services between the two lines.
I take that to indicate that there's a demand for at least 4.5 services between the two lines -- and possibly more, but because of the bridge closures, some of that demand couldn't be realized.
Yet your suggestion reduces the combined Manhattan service to 4 services, 2 on Broadway (NR) and 2 on 6th Avenue (DF). NYCT's plan maintains 3 on Broadway (NQR) and restores 2 to 6th (DF).
You're suggesting something very counterintuitive: that, with more trackage available, less service should run. We're still waiting for some sort of justification.
You still haven't addressed why it's OK to make the Sea Beach a shuttle on weekends so that the Brighton can have 2 services, while it's not OK to make the Dyre Line a shuttle on weekends and move all its Lex trains to the Jerome Line.
Replacing the Sea Beach with a 2nd Brighton line would require more crews, since the Sea Beach would still have to run from CI to Pacific. Replacing the Dyre Line with more Jerome trains would actually SAVE money, but NYCT isn't doing it. And yet the Dyre line has fewer passengers than the Sea Beach!
Thank You
Better get used to it. The TA is selling this plan like they did the V train 2 years ago. That means they're adament about it's implimentation despite whatever protests it will arouse.
Not quite. The plan described in the article is obviously a DRAFT which was still in some stage of development.
Whenever Transit officially releases a proposal, at least one spokesperson is identified and quoted. Yet NO official (or unofficial) Transit source is named in the News' article! V-e-r-y interesting...
Methinks they've lifted it off Subtalk (or some Subtalker has "leaked" it)!
The plan makes sense, for the most part, unlike many others that I've seen here. That's why NYCT is pushing it. My criticisms of it are minor.
I completely disagree with that premise.
The MTA says they did extensive ridership preference surveys before coming out with the plan. Do you think that they did the surveys, found that riders prefer 6th Ave to Broadway, and then decided to come out with the current plan anyway?
Of course lots of people want to go to 6th Ave even on weekends. But probably the surveys found that more people want to go to Broadway.
That's a load. I want to see these surveys before saying otherwise.
1. They took surveys and went with the preferences they heard.
2. They are totally stupid and incompetent, and probably deliberately like to make life worse for their customers.
I don't think the MTA is a perfect organization by any means, but I still vote for #1. Others may have different opinions, of course.
I also think the MTA wants to show off the Broadway BMT, given the millions spent to rehab it's stations.
#3 West End Jeff
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Most customers who use the Nostrand Ave LIRR station to board, go towards Jamaica, why would you spend $4 one way ($150 monthly, as a hypothetical example) to go towards Flatbush Ave, when the A express train is 2 blocks away?
There is no need for any ticket booths at either side of Nostrand Ave station.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And indeed it does list Nostrand and ENY as being without ticket issue facilities. But it'll cost you $4.75 off-peak one way to go from Nostrand to Jamaica. Makes the new subway fare of $2 look like a bargain by comparison.....
Well, there is the matter of comfort. If you either depart from or arrive at either station, or in the vicinity of either, it can make a difference in your state of mind to take the faster, more comfortable train, if you can afford it. If it's a daily commute, I can easily see people wanting to take it. In one sense, the Downtown Brooklyn to Jamaica corridor could be considered a true "super express" route. The local/express subway (with a transfer needed for Jamaica) as the base service. LIRR one or two stop "fast line" for people who value the faster service as the "premium option". The LIRR is still cheaper than a cab or car service anyway. For people in that category it's a welcome option to consider.
You can usually get away with not paying the sur-charge at most suburban stations, however they usually get you downtown since those ticket windows are open for almost all departures. I see people all the time that try to ride for free and end up paying the extra $2.00 when departing downtown terminals. The conductors are pretty good when departing downtown, these people are pretty stupid.
What is really stupid is that TVM's on the electric line don't count at all stations that don't have agents. Only Randolph and Van Buren Downtown and 59th St. do have agents. You can jump the turnstile, and pay your fare on the train without no surcharge. It is stupid that the electric line has turnstiles at select stations and not at others in the first place. They shouldn't descriminate against electric line riders like that. But the no penalty for jumping and paying on the train is good. It saved me a few weeks ago when I just made a train at University Park by about 1 minute because of unexpected construction on the way to the station. If there was a penalty for jumping or not having a ticket, I would have had to wait another hour for the next train.
Nostrand still has a large volume of reverse-commuter riders heading to jobs on Long Island. I would doubt if very many do domestic work, of course.
Reverse commuting to Long Island isn't an easy task, given the LIRR's scanty number of reverse-peak trains. Yet people still manage.
The office at East New York is also open from 6:45 - 2:10, but the lunch break is from 10:50 - 11:20.
CG
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
How does that prove that the schedule is a lie?
# 2 Line :Brooklyn bound trains Will operate Via Lex Line from 149 GC to Nevins St.
# 3 Line: Will operate from 148 Lenox to Times Square
# 4 Line: Will run local from Atlantic Ave to New Lots Ave
# 5 Line : Bowling Green bound trains will operate Via 7 Ave from 149 GC to Chambers. Then operate in service from Chambers around the South Ferry loop to Bowling Green where customers can transfer to a Brooklyn bound Nos. 2 or 4 trains.
OTOH, I'm just about ready to shoot (and I don't mean with a camera) whoever decided to wait until just after the 5 lost its last Redbird before running this GO.
-Stef
R-16 6382 was in the middle of a group of IRT cars on Sept 5 that went up the ramp from the IND Concourse Yard and along Jerome Ave to the Mosholu Yard. Motorman of regular IRT train reported station platform damaged and signal knocked over after the event.
That must have been some sight!
Man Oh Man... brickwall stops & more!
vlad
Vlad
Is there enough clearance when passing other trains amd when on a curve?
You'd probably end up making IRT cars narrower than they already are.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
--Mark
R-10 3226 was on the operating end of a train of IRT cars that climbed the Bedford Park ramp from the Concourse Yard and ran onto the IRT Jerome Ave Line at 5:41 AM Saturday, March 6. The train then wrongrailed to the IRT Yard, scraping the platform of the Bedford Park Station on the way. It remained in the IRT Yard until 11:15 AM. The car was back in regular service within two weeks.
This is almost exactly six months after a similar incident with an R-16.
Of course, you could always say that R-16 found out about its R-17 cousins and wanted to go meet them.:)
Bill "Newkirk"
I am looking to possibly find some subway cars in N scale, Hopefully operational.
Andy
Images Replicas made three-car sets of R62's.....
http://www.imagesreplicas.com
And there are PLENTY of Japanese prototype subway cars in N scale. There's one particular variety that has sides that look somewhat close to R38's....the ends are totally different but someone with above average modeling skills might be able to fashion more correct-looking ends onto them.
http://www.collect-corner.net/new_york_city_models.htm
Quote" I make a lot of "desktop" models from scratch, using cheap plastic toy train cars (and/or old model railroad cars)....made a couple of O scale LO-Vs, and smaller scaled R15 and Slant R40. "
You got Any pics of the R15 and R40 models ???? A few mounts ibought An Ho R15 form The "Famous" Red Caboose For $70 unpowerd and With alot of flash ! AND SPEAKING OF THE r40 I BUILT a r40 out of brass in Ho pboth powerd units for a frend a A Year Go ! Not an Easy Task !
Vlad
Save The Slants !!!!!!!!
And when I feel like going for a ride and can't make it to Branford, I go for BVE. I have to remind myself to put my N gauge toys under power every now and then just to polish the rails.
But NOTHING beats 1:1 scale. Ask anyone here who's gotten some handle time. Heh.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Might wanna try to get up there for one of the events.
The big model train set is just outside of New Haven: Directions
However I have twice driven a 6 pack of Rohr cars on WMATA in to the tail track at Dupont Circle A03 when Dupont Circle was the end of the line. Kind of fun controlling 3000 Hp through the crossover.
This sounds like a good story... :)
Thanks.
"This sounds like a good story... :)
Its not the only story I have. I also got the chance to operate the MP54 that Washington Terminal use to use to shuttle employees between Ivy City and Union Station.
By The way does anybody know if any Museum any where have any of either PRR or LIRR MP54 in there collections?
Enjoy,
John
I know that the cars at Warehouse Pt and Seashore are ex-LIRR.
I suspect the rest are PRR, but I don't know.
But you can still see Dashing Dan on the side as you cruise by in a Rio de Janeiro open car :)
Down in the basement I have a nice O gauge traction layout, and the cars to run on it. (One of my O gauge cars is a scratchbuilt (NOT by me :( ) model of WB&A 92, a Laclede built combine that was unique in that the car has no baggage doors. The Cab doors at one end are wider than normal.
I run it (and the others) every once in a while. (Very once in a while. Just polish the rails.) My BSM uniform has a 30 year service pin on the sleeve. 1:1 is more fun, but the workload is a LOT more. But worth it.
I haven't done any O scale additions since 7/2/70.
--Mark
BTW, the proprietor of 'Collector's Corner' used to be a member of BERA and we got him up there several times via car-pooling.
And you know me and bingbong. We'd bless a CHECKER cab. Heh.
Other than that, Jack LaFarge of Images Replicas is the only one around doing N scale subway cars that I know of - they're very, very nice but not in my price range!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i might make you a married pair for under $30 in n scale good ones too !
Woking on a redbird R33 set for a custumer an Slant 40s set an a R27 and a R16 for my self !
I bet they would sell a ton of them.
I know I'm an exception, but there are people all over the US that love the NY Subways, love Athearn models, and would buy their subway cars.
I'm sure a NY Subway model would sell a lot more than the Athearn Hal Carsten's 70th Anniversary passenger car that recently came out.
Don't you think that if Athearn sold a model of let's say the BMT Standard, there would be a big demand for it?
bigedirtmanl in Montana, just recently finished building a six car set in S gauge from scratch, and I think he built some from each different roof style. I do think that Ed really prefers the roof style of the 2500-2899 cars, particularly the 2500 series.
which cras exacly R ?
if only youre willing to buy models for me are yo willilling to wahit for a test/pilot model ?
and if you want i can give you price ?
interesting !
There have been stories that the physical Bridge work is already complete, and what's left to do is mostly just touch up, along with administrative work, planning, train crew signups, etc. I don't know if that's true, but you can contact NYC DOT and someone there will tell you.
Newark is currently building a extention to its subway. It would be great to have more cars. Classic, nostalgic, cars like the R-36 could supplement the 1999 Kinki-Sharyo LRV cars on the subway and new extention.
One thing good about this: because NJT would buy the cars from the TA, the TA would ACTUALLY make money. Every time a Redbird is sunk into a coral reef, the TA LOSES money, because the car is donated, not sold. So, this the TA could make money in times of fiscal crisis. So, this is a better idea.
- Replace low platforms with high
- Replace 3rd rail 600V system with overhead 750V system
- Replace all the innards of those cars anyway (consider their age)
- Replace center-facing seats with forward/backward ones (NCS pax not gonna put up with NYCTA seats after all this time)
- Thanks to platform disparity, new LRVs and Redbirds cannot operate side-by-side (also LRT versus heavy-rail concerns)
- Is this an April Fool's joke?
Well, that outta the way, you got a few things wrong:
- TA most likely gets a huge tax writeoff every time a car is "donated"
- NJT only got one deal from the TA, that being the old Grumman Flxibles
- NJT logo is not a chevron (which is a V shape); it's unofficial name for years has been "disco stripes" and has recently been altered somewhat
- NCS extension has been operating since last year, exactly when the PCCs went OOS (although the "extension" you are thinking of is the one to the old DL&W Broad Street Station, not part of the original NCS but part of the Newark-Elizabeth Rail Link officially)
Story here.
The Second Avenue Subway's first service plan will have trains using the existing bellmouth to run in the 63rd Street line, then onto the Broadway line.
The way the tracks are arranged, trains from the BMT most naturally flow into the 2nd Avenue leads. If 2nd Avenue ever opens, expect a Q train north of 63rd. Trains from the IND most naturally flow into Queens.
One possible modification to the 2004 route proposal is to terminate the F at 57/6 and to extend the Q to Queens in its place. I don't know if NYCT has conducted a formal evaluation of this option; offhand I see some small advantages and disadvantages but no strong arguments either way. The F and Q would probably swap yards and car assignments in such an event. (R-46's and R-32's on the Brighton local? R-68's on the Culver? That would be an interesting change.)
I know that there are many fans of the Q coming into Queens, but I've never understood it myself. Perhaps it would be more of a 'lose nothing' swap if the Q were a 6th Avenue service, but then again, if that were the case, why switch at all? I mean, R-46 Q trains look unusual, but I don't really crave them. Given the 2nd Avenue change that looms ahead (well that makes it sound like it's just ahead, doesn't it. I like it that way-but you get the point), why not keep the routes as is so that in a few years (I hope, I dearly hope) there would not have to be yet another switch after the Q/F flip described here?
6th Av IND service goes through three outer boroughs, whereas Broadway service only takes care of two. If you're going to add service, you add it to 6th Av, not Broadway, though Broadway is still a close second.
The Second Av Subway will introduce Broadway trunk service to another Corridor, and connect people, via transfer, to the Bronx.
The only picture I took of the area leading to the turnstiles came out overexposed, but basically the fare control looks completely new and different. Now instead of coming down the stairs from the W platform and making a left to get to the turnstiles as it used to be, they put in new stairs and the exit is directly below the W platform now.
The pictures
The camera I have isn't too great, and a few of the pictures were through a subway car window, but it'll give you a basic idea of what it looks like.
Nice job! If you can find reading material on the project itself, why not describe it and use the pictures to support your story. I'm sure Dave Pirmann, our webmaster, would be happy to create a section on subway.org which would tell the story. It would make a great addition to this website.
Don't you think so, Dave?
I'm forgetting the layout of the station already.
To try to combat a projected $55 million deficit in 2004, SEPTA proposes cutting the following:
TRANSIT:
-Operate Sunday level service on Saturdays
-Operate buses on trackless trolley routes
-Reduce midday MFL and Subway service
DISCONTINUE:
-bus routes 19,35,47M,77,121, and BROAD RIDGE SPUR
and here's the killer...
REGIONAL RAIL:
-Discontinue the R6 Cynwyd, R1 Airport, R2 Warminster, and R8 Chestnut Hill West.
-Close 9 stations: Lamokin, Angora, Eddystone, Rydal, Delaware Valley College, Link Belt, Eddington, Wister, and Wissinoming.
-No weekend R5 service past Lansdale
-No weekend R8 Fox Chase service
FARES:
-Raise fares 5.5%
--Tokens by 10 cents
--Transfers by 10 cents
This sounds very painful for Philadelphians, and excruciating for railfans.
With all the cuts you mentioned SEPTA will barely be running anything at all.
If they are going to eliminate one of the Chestnut Hill services, take the R7. It gets lower ridership. They could even slash the service on the R8 to hourly, and it would still be respectable. I don't care about Cynwyd, and it only got about 300 riders a day anyway.
There are plenty of other changes listed on the webpage that I gave the URL to, I only mentioned the biggies.
Maybe this is an ultimatum, like what Dave Gunn did at Amtrak. The Pennsylvania legislature might be persuaded to come through if things get bad enough.
If this is true, who do we write to to prevent it? Rendell? Street? Some nameless state representive from Upper Dinksburry? How about newspapers and TV stations, perhaps Fox's 'What's bugging you' thing?
Write John Perzel (R-Philadelphia), the GOP leader in the PA House. He is the biggest opponent of any tax increases and the one most favoring Rendell's first budget, which calls for eliminating a $2.5 B deficit with no increases, and it was a budget never intended to pass. Let's face the music, conservative Pennsylvania. You need to think outside the box and realize that tax increases are often necessary. Taxes are pretty low in that state, they can afford a few extra million. One of the biggest causes of this shortfall is the fact that SEPTA will lose 6% of their state funding in this next budget unless things change.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
And the emphasis of SEPTA operations needs to be placed in the city over the suburbs. There are a lot more people in the city who are dependent on transit, and its very difficult to serve the sprawling suburbs in an efficient manner with transit. We need to end urban sprawl and focus the redevelopment back in the city center, where the transportation infrastructure is already in place.
I heard about the cuts too and losing the R1 doesn't seem like such a hot idea.
And now the Republicans are trying to take the Convention Center over, and have a suburb-oriented board of directors, although the center lies in Philadelphia and employs mostly Philadelphians. It's a power grabbing strategy to try to build Repub support in heavily Democratic Philly. Last I heard, Mayor Street filed a lawsuit to stop the takeover.
They've got that great airport rail link, and now they want to get rid of it? It boggles the mind. The R6 to Bala-Cynwyd, I can understand. It had so little ridership that it should have been converted to light rail long ago. Perhaps both Chestnut Hill services aren't needed on weekends. Were they built today, only one would have been built. But the Airport Line? I don't know...
No, it isn't. And there really isn't much controversy about it any more. New Yorkers need to turn it on and start running it. And they will by the end of the year.
You don't know much about that Monorail. I suggest that the next time you fly out of Neww York, use EWR (good prices from there) and check out Newark AirTrain. It should be very educational for you.
" And who knows what's gonna happen with LaGuardia, probably nothing but more buses, taxis and cars."
Write MTA. Who knows...
Yes, it is. It will only go to Howard Beach to connect with the A train and to Jamaica to connect with E, J, Z and LIRR. Newark's monorail only goes to the NEC to connect with Amtrak and NJT trains. Both of them won't go directly to Midtown or Lower Manhattan. Philly's R1 service at least goes directly to Center City.
I'm not putting down the monorail. It's better that it's there than if it wasn't. Same thing for the JFK Airtrain. I'm simply saying that SEPTA's R1 service goes directly downtown and that the monorail doesn't and the JFK Airtrain won't (and they're spending all that money on it). The SEPTA service is better in that regard.
Yes, it is. It will only go to Howard Beach to connect with the A train and to Jamaica to connect with E, J, Z and LIRR. Newark's monorail only goes to the NEC to connect with Amtrak and NJT trains. Both of them won't go directly to Midtown or Lower Manhattan. Philly's R1 service at least goes directly to Center City.
I'm not putting down the monorail. It's better that it's there than if it wasn't. Same thing for the JFK Airtrain. I'm simply saying that SEPTA's R1 service goes directly downtown and that the monorail doesn't and the JFK Airtrain won't. The SEPTA service is better in that regard. What the JFK Airtrain will have as an advantage is that most LIRR riders from the east will be able to change in Jamaica for the Airtrain without having to going into Manhattan first.
It would be nice if the TA could speed the trip up from manhattan to either Howard Beach or Jamaica.
Plus you are also assuming most riders are coming directly from midtown manhattan.
most are not. Most business travelers come in from LGA or newark
And that's all you need it to do. It isn't necessary for it to do anythging else. It brings the airport, in essence, to those stations.
" Newark's monorail only goes to the NEC to connect with Amtrak and NJT trains. Both of them won't go directly to Midtown or Lower Manhattan. "
Not relevant. You have a convenient ADa transfer.
"Philly's R1 service at least goes directly to Center City."
And that's the only place it goes, and it only goes every 30 minutes. And if you want to transfer, you have up to an hour wait for a train, depending on where you're going. It's a nice service, but AirTrain will take you places where you can get service every 10 minutes to Manhattan and every 30 minutes to Brooklyn (from Jamaica Station) and the A train. It blows the R1 away for convenience without any doubt. Not even close.
Losing it in Philly, though, is a bummer because they don't have any other service.
Now that I think about it, it's a shame that SEPTA didn't build its Airport line as a high-frequency subway or light rail line. That would have been a much better and probably more popular service.
This is a very good point. In essense the airport begins at howard beach or jamaica. A 600 foot subway train winding through the airport would be a waste of time and money not to mention a serious terrorism issue. Remember JFK is not one building like say grand central. It is a group of terminals.
Someone could put a bomb in a conductors booth in the seat somewhere in manhattan and dedonate it at the terminal without a trace. It is much harder to police.
In paris you had to take a bus to the rail station. Luckly I met a sexy French gal on the plane who steered me in the right direction.
In addtion Ait train makes Jamaica a more viable location for hotels and other Airport related activities
Was it the direction she was taking? :0)
Now it does -- at least at Howard Beach. There's free shuttle bus service between the two sections of the airport.
When AirTrain opens a fare will be charged, probably around $5. Do you know of any other airport that doesn't provide free access between its sections?
I learned my leason in Denver when I depended on a bus to get me from the off property Rental Car place to the airport. Never again
By the time I lugges by luggage onto the bus, walked from the inconvient place the bus left us off. I was so tired and sweaty, I forgot to change into my flight cloth's and thus missed my one opurtunity to be bumped into first class*. My girlfriend made fun of me the whole flight.
Trains are perceived as more frequent, easy to find and have stations to wait in.
$5 does not see that much when you are traveling on business or vacation. It's a business expense for business travelers. Maybe they can offer a discount for riders with unlimited ride metrocards. It would help the MTA to sell more of these cards to tourists and business travelers.
* A freind of my ex-girlfreind worked for the airline. For $200 roundtrip you got priority to be bumped into first class.
And it's not just perception. Especially at JFK, the traffic is a killer. The buses get bunched up and delayed like crazy.
So make them reliable. Provide a better bus service. Run express service between the terminals and the subway, bypassing the parking garages. Restrict one lane on the terminal roadway to buses only so they don't get stuck in traffic.
Of course, it's not the Port Authority's interest to do that. It's in the Port Authority's interest to ensure that the bus service is as poor as it can be so that people will come out in favor of an expensive new rail line that doesn't actually accomplish anything the cheaper buses could.
But you still didn't answer my question. Do you know of any airports that charge a fee for access from one section of the airport to another?
Then the terminal circulator train at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, where it meets MARTA's terminal, isn't at the airport either, because it doesn't actually continue onto MARTA's tracks and provide a one seat ride into downtown Atlanta. Why don't you go to Atlanta and hang up a sign asking people not to use it because it is a fraud? :0)
Very few people actually "agree" that Airtrain is "poorly integrated." There is you, and 24 people in South Ozone Park, and a a few other people who showed up at public hearings pissed off because the Port Authority didn't use their "best plan."
For all the noise and speechmaking they did, the local politicians (except for good old Julia, who wishes the subway would disappear never mind AirTrain) didn't really give a damn, either.
The whole issue is more about mental masturbation and semantics than anything else.
My thoughts on that have always been, the re-use of the old LIRR ROW would have been the best option to choose. If the realities of the situation would have allowed it to happen. What's done is done, true. But....maybe it would have allowed better direct service from New York and Long Island. Hell, even Brooklyn. Maybe it could have been good for the old corridors' neighborhoods. Maybe it would have allowed for direct interstate train connections via Penn Station or right over the Hell Gate Bridge.
ISTM that all the AirTrain will offer is a "trainstitution" of the bus or a cab from Jamaica to JFK. And that much more schlepping.
Could be worse. Another part of this thread has gone into politics and insults, and may result in the entire thread being deleted.
ISTM that all the AirTrain will offer is a "trainstitution" of the bus or a cab from Jamaica to JFK."
That's what the whole NYC subway system does, basically.
" And that much more schlepping."
That's silly.
Let's compare this to the 63rd Street connection. It was quite pricey, as you're aware. It could have been built for much less if it weren't an actual track connection. Consider this alternative: Deep tunnel a track between the 21st Street and 36th Street stations. Install elevators connecting the platforms. Charge $5 for the new shuttle line. Based on your reasoning -- that ADA-compliant elevator transfers and $5 fares are not deterrents to ridership -- such an arrangement would have been perfectly adequate. So why was a much more expensive track connection built instead?
So what? Do you know of an airport that offers extensive free parking to its users?
If you show me one, then you have a right to complain about AirTrain's fee.
My point is that your claim fails the quack test. Every airport has free access between its sections. If Jamaica were really part of the airport itself, then it would cost exactly as much to get from Jamaica to the American terminal as it costs to get from the United terminal to the American terminal. (Pardon my examples if there are no terminals by name -- I've only flown into, not out of, JFK in recent memory, so I wasn't paying close attention to the name of the building I walked through to get from the plane to the bus.)
Or do you have counterexamples?
I'm not complaining about the fee. It won't affect me; now that I've discovered the B15 bus, and it's easier for me to reach New Lots than Howard Beach or Jamaica, that will be my preferred route to JFK (for those occasions when LGA isn't an option). I'm pointing out that, if the PA really considered Howard Beach and Jamaica to be part of JFK, no fee would be charged to get from Howard Beach or from Jamaica to the rest of the airport.
There is no quack test here, and so your comparison is not relevant.
"If Jamaica were really part of the airport itself, then it would cost exactly as much to get from Jamaica to the American terminal as it costs to get from the United terminal to the American terminal."
Nope, not necessarily. That isn't one of the ten commandments handed down by God, after all. Maybe the PA will ultimately see it in its best interest to make it free, but that's a separate question.
"It won't affect me; now that I've discovered the B15 bus, and it's easier for me to reach New Lots than Howard Beach or Jamaica, that will be my preferred route to JFK (for those occasions when LGA isn't an option)."
For you, certainly. For everyone else who uses it, a non-issue.
"I'm pointing out that, if the PA really considered Howard Beach and Jamaica to be part of JFK, no fee would be charged to get from Howard Beach or from Jamaica to the rest of the airport."
And I have tried to point out to you that, as long as you strictly limit your complaints to Subtalk,you deserve whatever you get. :0)
Hotel that may spring up at airtrain stops may offer free airtrain passes etc.
Special tourist deals that will include attractions, metrocard and airtrain fare's included.
$5 will be the base fare just like $2 is the base subway fare.
Anything is possible. They are not likely to do that, but they could if they wanted to.
Trade shows bring in $29-50 million per show. NY is desparately needing more convention space. Such an arrangement would also allow NYC to tap into the market for one day coorporate meetings. NY currently is passed over becuse it lacks easy hotel access to it's airports. with international flights arriving at JFK and most domestic flights at LGA there is no place to build hotels to compete with orlando and chicargo
Besides the 8 million people who live in the city. Millions more work or visit each week
Mark
The MTA does not fully tap into other revenue streams. These streams could subsidies its rail and bus operations.
Some options to reduce the fat.
1)Eliminate token booths. Metrocard sales through third part vendors, MVM's and subscriptions
Savings - nearly 1/2 billion dolars a year.
The security issue is bogus. SA don't deter crime
Add $10 million for the operation of extra security equiptment, cctc central monitoring, call boxes, bioterrorism sensors extra patrols.
2)ATO with ZPTO where possible lines. Preferable with platform doors. monitoring for draggers could be done via cctv from central location. Automatic door operations. OPTO utilizing CBTC and inteligent OPTO.
The MTA own statistics show draggings down signifcantly at stations with CCTV to assist T/O
Savings nearly 500 million
Add $10 million on extra security patrols
Add $50 million one time capitol expense to equipt all cars with in car CCTV.
Add $60 million one time capitol expense for 3G wireless network to transmit images and emergency phone calls to central monitoring.
Reduce by licence fee charged to cellular opertors for use of network
3)Right size service. Shorter trains after 10 PM. Shorter more frequent trains on weekends. This allows for addtional maintance and longer life due to less overall milage on cars. Plus will attract more riders increasing revenue.
Save $10 million a year on operting and mainance costs
Save nearly a few hudred millio over 20 years for exteneded live of rail cars and the need for less cars in reserve
4)Elimination of the layers and layers of obsolete mangement, line management, supervisors etc.
5)Elimination most bus trackers. Use GPS based bus tracking, monitoring including on bus weight sensors to get accurate real time statisics of bus utilization to enhance schedules and to keep buses ontime
Savings for bus trackers less then $1
savings on fuel due to less dwell time and better schedule?
6)Purchace low floor articulated buses reducing overall bus runs
7)Better utilize MTA real estate including leasing out portions of subway stations for news stands, drug stores, starbucks etc..
Add revenue $10 million a year
7) Better utilize the system as an advertising vehicle including in station audio and video advertisments, promotions and other marketing tools.
Add $20-30 million a year
Make appropite modifications to subway lines and modify feeder bus route's to reduce the number of express bus runs. The West end line is a prime example. Build new express station and/or improve the feeder bus routes to attract express bus riders to the subway. Make the El's more appealing. remove the boxed in look, add more glass.
The MTA does not fully tap into other revenue streams. These streams could subsidies its rail and bus operations.
Some options to reduce the fat.
1)Eliminate token booths. Metrocard sales through third part vendors, MVM's and subscriptions
Savings - nearly 1/2 billion dolars a year.
The security issue is bogus. SA don't deter crime
Add $10 million for the operation of extra security equiptment, cctc central monitoring, call boxes, bioterrorism sensors extra patrols.
2)ATO with ZPTO where possible lines. Preferable with platform doors. monitoring for draggers could be done via cctv from central location. Automatic door operations. OPTO utilizing CBTC and inteligent OPTO.
The MTA own statistics show draggings down signifcantly at stations with CCTV to assist T/O
Savings nearly 500 million
Add $10 million on extra security patrols
Add $50 million one time capitol expense to equipt all cars with in car CCTV.
Add $60 million one time capitol expense for 3G wireless network to transmit images and emergency phone calls to central monitoring.
Reduce by licence fee charged to cellular opertors for use of network
3)Right size service. Shorter trains after 10 PM. Shorter more frequent trains on weekends. This allows for addtional maintance and longer life due to less overall milage on cars. Plus will attract more riders increasing revenue.
Save $10 million a year on operting and mainance costs
Save nearly a few hudred millio over 20 years for exteneded live of rail cars and the need for less cars in reserve
4)Elimination of the layers and layers of obsolete mangement, line management, supervisors etc.
5)Elimination most bus trackers. Use GPS based bus tracking, monitoring including on bus weight sensors to get accurate real time statisics of bus utilization to enhance schedules and to keep buses ontime
Savings for bus trackers less then $1
savings on fuel due to less dwell time and better schedule?
6)Purchace low floor articulated buses reducing overall bus runs
7)Better utilize MTA real estate including leasing out portions of subway stations for news stands, drug stores, starbucks etc..
Add revenue $10 million a year
7) Better utilize the system as an advertising vehicle including in station audio and video advertisments, promotions and other marketing tools.
Add $20-30 million a year
Make appropite modifications to subway lines and modify feeder bus route's to reduce the number of express bus runs. The West end line is a prime example. Build new express station and/or improve the feeder bus routes to attract express bus riders to the subway. Make the El's more appealing. remove the boxed in look, add more glass.
8)Revamp the way the MTA buys, tracks construction projects, handles payrole, manges parts inventory etc.
For instance, A schedules purchace and replacement program at the bus division to buy x number of buses with similar mechanical underpinings over a say 10 years would allow the MTA to negotiate better prices on buses due to allwoing the manufacturer to maximize factory utilization . Adding a secound shift or adding overtime drives up the cost of builing buses and rail cards.
The difference between public transit and police and fire is that there is no practical way to charge for police and fire. Public transit already has a charge.
For that matter, so does water and sewer and in many places, garbage too.
According the Census Bureau's journey to work file, about 240,000 worked in Center City in 1990. This is a file that comes out late, and 2000 data will not be available for some time.
Don't be so sure. Existing buildings can be less intensively used. Here in NYC, the average SF per office worker has risen from 125 square feet in 1960 to say 300 today, as legions of clerical workers have been replaced by machines and a smaller number of managers and professionals.
The Convention Center has been built since 1990 IIRC, and expanded dramatically. 5,000 Hotel rooms were added to the city since 1992 alone. And retail is booming. I don't think a 270,000 working population is very far fetched.
And while we're on the subject - If it's a free country and YOU are allowed to say what you want when you want. why do you take it upon yourself to try to limit my freedom of speech - especially since my comments were not addressed to you. Does freedom of speech only apply to people who think the way you do?
Would you like me to start citing parts of the Bill of Rights? Ok, here we go...
FIRST AMENDMENT:
-Freedom of Religion
--Since 9-11, Muslim Americans have faced incredible scrutiny which is senseless. The average Muslim is just as dangerous as the average Christian.
--School Vouchers, Faith-based Intitiatives. Violates the Separation of Church and State, with tax money going to fund parochial schools and to religious organizations.
FOURTH AMENDMENT:
-Right to Privacy
--The privacy of literally millions of Americans has been violated without just legal cause. Emails read, people questioned and detained, racial profiling, etc with no legal warrants whatsoever to back it up.
There are many other examples, but I don't want to waste space on Subtalk with a big off-topic message. If you are really interested, there are many places you can check this stuff out. Try researching some of the USA Patriot Act.
How many chistians were members of the first or secound terrorist attacks on the WTC - ZERO
Many of the muslim that were questioned and detained were either here on visa's for which they are at the mercy of the govenment to come in for questioning.
Many had paperwork that was either expired or obtained under false pretenses.
In addition it is little know that the first bush administration spent $70 million dollars resettling Iraqi's after the first gulf war. Many were former solders that were surrendered or were captured. The Bush and then clinton adminstration droped the ball and failed to do thorough background checks.
"School Vouchers, Faith-based Intitiatives. Violates the Separation of Church and State, with tax money going to fund parochial schools and to religious organizations."
I agree that federal money to faith based initiatives is wrong. Bush's child left behind law which guarentee's a transfer of any child from a failing school to a top performing school whether the school has space or not is ment to pave the way for more vouchers.
Faith based initiatives is going to result in money being given to some "religious organizations" that are shames set up to collect on the governments pot of gold
"FOURTH AMENDMENT:
-Right to Privacy
--The privacy of literally millions of Americans has been violated without just legal cause. Emails read, people questioned and detained, racial profiling, etc with no legal warrants whatsoever to back it up."
Unfortunitly we live in a world that is very different then the one when the bill or rights was written.
Many of the above do have legal presedent when there is a suspicion of involvement in an issue.
What the NJ troopers did was wrong. Profiling is a valable and needed tool in solving crimes. If used within the framwork or the law it does not illegally descriminate against any one group.
This is another case where the word has taken on a life of there own. Words like descriminate and profiling with many in the public who don't know the real meaning and use it as a crutch.
A descriminate shopper is a good shopper who shops around for products that are both high quaility and priced right
After 9-11, THREE THOUSAND Middle Eastern Muslims in America were detained in Brooklyn without legal cause and without suspicion other than their nation of origin. Some of these people were detained for up to three months with no lawyers, and no charges brought against them.
Does this make it right for the airports to stop me three times because of my appearance? It has happened to me and to a few of my Italian cousins based on our looks.
Theres no easy solution to this. I prefer that we step down our "bite me" foreign policy, and stop pissing off the rest of the world. Not only will this eliminate a lot of the hatred, but it will allow us to step down our security enough to preserve the freedoms that our nation was built upon. The Bill of Rights wasn't created to be changed 200 years down the road.
See, the thing is, and I hope you understand this, such changes as you mention in "our foreign policy" are not just isolated pure changes, no matter if they're based on "righteous thinking". Analyze realistically your current lifestyle. Look at it from a blank slate so to speak. Not that I know anything about you but I'd bet you lack none of the comforts of home. Roof over your head, running hot and cold water, electricity, sanitary environment, clean garments, foods both plentiful and varied, assumption of benign external conditions which will allow you to continually seek greater comfort and pleasures.
In comparison to a very large percent of the world's population, YOU'RE LIVING LIKE A KING! And none of all that....none of it....came without the torturous price being paid for your bounty. In blood, sweat and tears.
I'll join you in this desire. So if we want the world to get a fairer shake, we too gotta be willing to pay the price. Ready to wear those shoes a "little longer"? Mind sharing your toilet? And hell, I don't care about medical care....got good strong genes.
Hahahahahaahahah....... Too rich for words........ Why don't you give us all an example about Canada's 'higher' standard of living. Perhaps your knowledge of canada is more extensive than your understanding of the Bill of Rights.
From the United Nations Human Development Index:
Canada is ranked as the 3rd highest nation.
Life Expectancy: 78.7 years
Adult Literacy Rate: 100%
Combined Primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollemtn ratio: 97
GDP per capita: $26,251
Life Expectancy Index: .89
Education Index: .98
GDP Index: .93
HDI value: .936
GDP per capita rank minus HDI rank: 3
Also remember that Canada has a much higher level of social services, a virtually nonexistant crime rate, lower inflation, and universal healthcare.
United States is ranked as 6th
Life Expectancy: 76.8 years
Adult Literacy Rate: 99%
Combined Primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio: 95
GDP per capita: $31,872
Life Expectancy Index: .86
Education Index: .98
GDP Index: .96
HDI value: .934
GDP per capita rank minus HDI rank: -4
The US has a much lower level of social services, a larger gap in incomes, tens of millions without adequate healthcare, crime rates much much higher than Canada, and higher inflation.
Let's look at that. First, your own data actually shows (without the arbitrary formula) that the US is number one in some respects, and Canada is number one in others.
"Also remember that Canada has a much higher level of social services,"
and more overt rationing of things like health care, which your neighbors do not want and would not vote for.
"a virtually nonexistant crime rate, "
That's easy with a more homogeneous, and smaller population. But look at how the Canadian government treats its indigent Indians and Eskimos - far worse than we treat ours (not that we're so wonderful, though).
"lower inflation,"
Wrong. If there were a difference it would not matter much - with one exception:
"and universal healthcare."
With significant overt rationing. Canada uses a single-payor system. Some Canadians like it, and others think it sucks, so they come across the border to see US doctors.
The public here has fought tooth and nail not to go to such a system. Our health-care system is prone to inflation, but it provides customer-friendly conveniences that Canadians are not used to having. It's not wrong for Canada, but it's not better than what we have.
The US has "tens of millions without adequate healthcare,"
Canada does not have to, and never had to, deal with the kind of economic stratification that we do, so your statement is trite and meaningless. Canada also never had the kind of heterogeneous society we do. Put New York in Canada and its federal government wouldn't know what to do with it. Toronto, while a beautiful city, is a joke compared sociologically to New York.
Canada uses diplomacy more than we do, because Canada doesn't shoulder as much responsibility over world security as we do, and is less capable than we are. The US pays a higher % of the UN budget than anyone else. If there's UN action to be taken, most of it is US forces, with others helping. Look at Korea in the 1950's and Bosnia in the 1990's.
Switzerland is very diplomatic, and neutral. Why? Because nobody has anything to gain from conquering it, and because the Swiss were willing to get naked and into bed with anybody if it was to Swiss advantage (like WW II, when they refused to intervene to prevent the slaughter of millions of Jews on the one hand (and stole concentration camp inmates' money), shot down Axis aircraft in Swiss airspace on the other hand, and were happy to launder money and entertain spies for all comers).
So let's not put Canada on such a pedestal. They don't belong there.
Brother, this is gettin' way O.T. But here's a basic fact. The strong win. No disrespect to the people or government of Canada. But in one sense, Canada is the sucker fish to the American shark. Who'd you rather border....Mexico? Germany? Upper Volta?
As far as what that has to do with foreign policy...uh, how do you think this country has survived and thrived? By being "pleasant" or "respectful" of other countries? Naw man, we had plenty hungry folk here, looking for gelt. And we lucked out to have somehow created the political and financial infrastructure that made our fortunes rise accross the board. The two put together got us here.
There'll always be dumb, unlucky or jealous people looking on. It's the way it is. Either they can utilize the data gained from our "great experiment" and adopt it towards their own respective situations, or they can bitch and moan and try to steal it or destroy it. So we gotta defend ourselves....and yes, our way of life.
Burkina Faso
"Burkina Faso? Disputed Zone? Who called all these weird places?"
First of all, I don't need you or anyone else to teach me anything about courtesy. My comments were directed at a pucilanimous weasel who doesn't work, doesn't pay taxes, lives at my expense and called my President a Bum. I'd say that made him fair game. You chose to inject yourself into the dispute. feel free bo back out any time you wish.
Second, how has this president done anything to abridge anyone's first amendment rights? If anything, he's gone well out of his way to point out that the acts of some fanatical fundimentalist muslims does not reflect the mainstream of islamic thought.
Finally, there is no right of privacy guaranteed by the 4th amendment. Let me repeat that. There is no right of privacy guaranteed by the 4th amendment. That's a perversion of the origional intent of the amendment. The amendment was written to protect against unauthorized searches and seizures. There was never an absolute guarantee of privacy - just the expectation of such without a court-order to the contrary. Do you have evidence that this has been violated by this president? If so, since sucha violation would fall within the realm of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", I'm sure that ted (backstroke) kennedy and his band of merry dems would love to know about it.
You seem to be quite the expert on his life. Perhaps is NAFTA didn't ship millions of jobs south of the border, he would be working right now.
First Amendment Rights have been violated in terms of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which concerns government support over religions. I outlined that pretty damn clear in a previous post.
And I am well aware that the 4th Amendment in its original wording doesn't protect privacy, but this can fall under unlawful search and seizure, depending on the interpreter. That is the entire purpose of the Constitution--to be a living document that can be amended and interpreted as the times change, although the fundamental principles remain the same. But some people are so narrow-minded that they refuse to escape the 18th century, and follow it word-for-word, which was not the intent. A Protection of privacy is a legal precedent set over the centuries in our court system, which is based on the Fourth Amendment. I could give you a list of cases in which this was upheld if I had convenient access to a law library. Check out the ACLU if you'd like some information on the Bill of Rights, and some of the freedoms that make America so great.
And I described in a previous post how this was violated, with the illegal detainment of Muslims in this country. The Village Voice was just one of the newspapers that published articles concerning this. I'm sure you could research and read about it if you were really that interested in the facts, and were willing to get away from the propaganda spoon-fed to you on mainstream news.
And as far as I'm concerned, this issue is over. I think we should bring this off-topic discussion to an end, since this is not a political message board. Thanks :-)
Thank you very much. It would be sad to see this thread deleted, since originally it really did involve transit, and David doesn't usually surgically delete just the political parts of a thread.
FACT:People were detained because of their suspected Anti-American (terrorist) activities - NOT because they were muslims. They happened to be muslim as were the murderers who hijacked 4 US airplanes on Sept. 11, 2001 and used them to kill nearly 4,000 innocent Americans. There is a significant difference.
As for the illegality of their detention, the courts disagree with your point of view. So unless you hold yourself above the law, you are incorrect once again.
Most not all of those detained had problems with there visa's or were participating in some illegal activity.
Get the facts straight. it is people like you who cause fear in the muslim communities..
Are you aware that the US government has spent $70 million dollars since the last gulf war resettling muslims who were oersecuted by Saddam Hussein . That does not sound like a government that hates muslims.
Don't confuse the govenments attempt to track down an question those who violated thier student or travel visa's with illegally detaining people. They have every right to.
I wished the govenment would crack down harder on illegal immigration.
Especially in NYC it leads to many good paying jobs going to illegal immigrants and contributes to the housing shortage.
Contractors charge customers at rates based on current wages and hire illegal immigrants and pocket the difference. Illegal immigrants from mexico are willing to work at jobs in pizza places and deli's for far less then an american and work ungodly hours. The owners pocket the profits. Many send the money back to mexico where it buys more. I don't blame the people, I blame the politicians on the take who fight to ignor it.
Bad Building owners rather rent to an illegal immigrant because he/she is not going to complain when the heat is not working or the deiling is falling. Plus some landlords charge mexican workers per person making twice the rent as it would be to a normal renter.
It is not smart to cheer the WTC disaster when you don't have your proper paperwork!!!!
Read that article. That's just one of the thousands you will find on the internet relating to the similar subject.
And, I would consider changing your handle.
It fails to mention why many muslim immigrants were detained when they showed up to register. There were either on expired visa's or there visa's were obtained using false or inaccurate information.
Comparing the situation to the 1940's issue with japanease americans is rediculous. For one many of the japanease americans put in camps during the 1940's were ameicans many for more then one generation.
Most of these muslim immigrants detained are not american citizens and are here illegally or provided false information on there visa applications, or were known to be associated with people believed to be involved in terroristic activities
You have to understand that many of these civil liberties groups need to come up with cases to make money to feed there pockets. There interests is purely selfish.
Your allowing them to decide the outcome of the fact pattern for you. read many sources on this issue and put the fact patter together yourself and you will see the truth
If you did nothing wrong and you followed the rules you will not be detained. The fact of the matter is that the INS screwed up over the last 20 years issueing torrist and student visa's without a system of tracking down and rounding up violaters. The INS also did not do adequate background checks on asylum seekers. The INS even resettles some of saddoms inteligence officer seeking asylum after the last gulf war complete with food stamps, medicaid, educational training and housing assistance.
First of all, I don't need you or anyone else to teach me anything about courtesy. My comments were directed at a pucilanimous weasel who doesn't work, doesn't pay taxes, lives at my expense and called my President a Bum. I'd say that made him fair game. You chose to inject yourself into the dispute. feel free bo back out any time you wish.
Second, how has this president done anything to abridge anyone's first amendment rights? If anything, he's gone well out of his way to point out that the acts of some fanatical fundimentalist muslims does not reflect the mainstream of islamic thought. The fact that some islamic institutions have been targetted has been well justified by the discovery that their activities have been linked to the funding of terrist activities to the tune of 10s of millions of dollars in this country alone.
Finally, there is no right of privacy guaranteed by the 4th amendment. Let me repeat that. There is no right of privacy guaranteed by the 4th amendment. That's a perversion of the origional intent of the amendment. The amendment was written to protect against unauthorized searches and seizures. There was never an absolute guarantee of privacy - just the expectation of such without a court-order to the contrary. Do you have evidence that this has been violated by this president? If so, since sucha violation would fall within the realm of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", I'm sure that ted (backstroke) kennedy and his band of merry dems would love to know about it.
An expectation of privacy which is enforceable. The Patriot Act does get into a grey area there, and people have good reason to be concerned.
This is not to say that the whole act is flawed per se, but that concerns about civil liberties deserve respect.
This is an open forum. There is no such thing as a private conversation on Subtalk, and anyone can butt in anytime. You want to insult Qtraindash in private, use email. Otherwise, expect criticism from others when they think it appropriate.
While he underfunds
Homeland secutity
Medicaid
Education
Economic development(except farm subsidies which to large coorporate farmers)
The end result is that cities like NYC have to raise taxes by twicew as much as the average taxpayer will see in federal tax cuts
Homeland secutity
Medicaid
Education
Economic development(except farm subsidies which to large coorporate farmers)
You missed the worst one... the railroads!
Certain cuts (like the C bus) will bring out the usual "dog and pony" show of elderly and handicapped people, with their (unfortunately all too accurate) sob stories about their lifeline to getting food, prescriptions, medical care and whatever, plus the in-ability to use the Broad St Subway because of fear of crime, and the fact that most of the stations are not ADA compliant. The R8 CHW cut is an attack on Rendell's core constituency- the Mt.Airy-Chestnut Hill middle class pseudo liberals. The R1 will hurt tourism and Airport workers, the R2 will hurt commuters in the northern suburbs, and the R5 cut will piss off the commuters who live "way out there" in Chester and Bucks counties, who don`t want to drive their massive gas-guzzling SUV's into the city where they'll be vulnerable to break-ins. The bus cuts in the Northeast will piss off even more seinor citizens and send a message to the GOP legislators that represent those districts in that part of the city.
In closing, there will be huge, bloody, and nasty battles over whose ox gets gored, and who will get screwed over. Adding to this mess, is the fact that this is an election year for Mayor, and these cuts will be a HUGE issue in an increasingly nasty race between John Street (incumbent) and Sam Katz (challenger).
Stay tuned, this might be more interesting than Bush's dirty little war [at least in Philly].
Very good. You presented a very astute gestalt of the situation. Great post.
Interested parties can try to use www.hallwatch.org to set up a fax bank and fax their elected officials.
vey
vlad
Be careful...there's quite a few Philadelphians here on this board.
Mark
I lived in a few places around the country. All had good and bad.
Mark
Of course, things could be worse. I could live in Baltimore.
: )
Mark
If, however, you are speaking of our no-count transit system, I totally agree.
Mark
If I was to follow your example, I would say that whatever town you are from is filled with people just as ignorant and inconsiderate as yourself and the subway and food SUCK!
So we should not judge another's city's system by looks alone, or by the opinions of the users since they have to ride it everyday. We have to experience it on a daily basis to make an accurate judgement.
With the amount of money that exists in the MTA/TA there is just bound to be smoeone who's going to try & steal some of it.
Some do it in a legal way, i.e. another study of the 2nd Ave STUBway, etc.
However the City goes to the other extreem, i.e. lowest bidder has to get the job ... the City pays & pays for their rigidness on that one.
Washington (HDN) - In a reversal of Republican policy of the last 30 years, the Department of Transportation announced today that in recognition of changes in national transportation priorities since 9-11-01 it has formulated a plan for a vastly-expanded and improved national passenger rail system. “An expanded and more soundly funded rail transportation network complimenting and augmenting the nation’s airlines and interstate highways is necessary for our national security as we enter the more dangerous world of the 21st century, not to mention the effects of a more rational rail-based system on energy efficiency and especially highway congestion,” said Transportation Secretary Norman Minneta at a press conference held in Washington’s recently-renovated Union Station.
“Our proposal to Congress includes $20 billion in capital funding over the next five years to completely rehabilitate the Northeast Corridor between Washington and Boston, the keystone of Amtrak’s national system, which is still operating almost entirely on an infrastructure dating from early in the last century,” said Minneta.
The proposal also includes $5 billion per year for the next 10 years to renew the nation’s national rail passenger network. “These monies are intended to rebuild existing modern Amtrak equipment and acquire new cars and locomotives for a number of new routes, as well as for more realistic compensation to the private freight railroad companies that host these trains,” Minneta continued. “In order to demand on-time performance and new routes we intend to compensate the freight railroads to a level equivalent to current expedited manifest trains, as well as to provide funding for additional facilities actually required for new services.” When questioned as to why operational compensation levels should not be even higher, to the level of the railroads’ most premium freight services, Minneta reminded reporters that Amtrak not only pays its own labor and fuel costs but also continues to relieve the companies of the costs of services required of them for well over 100 years prior to the formation of the nationalized and publicly-subsidized system in 1971.
When quizzed about new services, Minneta said that while marketing studies would have to be conducted to determine where new services are most needed, at least a few conceptual routes were almost certain, most of them neglected north-south and among them Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland south to Atlanta and Florida; Duluth-Minneapolis/St. Paul-Kansas City-Dallas/Ft. Worth-Houston; and Glacier Park-Billings-Denver-Dallas/Ft Worth and Albuquerque-El Paso. An east-west route from St. Louis through Kansas City to Denver is critical, as is restoration of service from Denver to Portland and Seattle as well as Las Vegas and Los Angles, according to Minneta. “We are also looking into making the current three-days-a-week transcontinental Jacksonville – Los Angeles route daily, but with alternate routings between El Paso and New Orleans via San Antonio-Houston and Dallas-Shreveport,” he said.
“These are not the only routes under consideration,” Minneta cautioned, noting that “Railroads have been an indispensable part of our great country’s transportation system, in fact the foundation of this republic, for 175 years. We would not be the United States of America were it not for our railroad network, in fact the veins and arteries of our nation. We have neglected this critical element of our national security for far too long, and now that the need for transportation alternatives has been so cruelly imposed upon us by outside forces it is time to correct this wrong.”
The larger freight railroads that host most of Amtrak’s current passenger trains were not enthusiastic about adding new trains. “We can’t handle the trains we have now,” one official was overheard to say at Minneta’s news conference. When it was later pointed out that his particular railroad once hosted a fleet of premier passenger trains that were operated with pride and efficiency, to the point that employees were disciplined for losing minutes in operating them, in a time when there were many more trains, no computers, not even radio communications, he said, “That was then, this is now. We learned a long time ago that we can’t outperform airplanes and cars, we can’t even outperform trucks, so we don’t sell performance anymore, at least with few exceptions we don’t guarantee it. We sell transportation, pure and simple.” When reminded that Amtrak intended to increase payments for “transportation” substantially in return for performance guarantees, he said, “We’ll look at their proposals,” and refused to answer any more questions.
In related news, House Republican leaders today announced a proposal for an additional $3.5 billion bailout for the nation’s ailing airlines. This would bring total cash bailouts, loan guarantees, and other taxpayer support since 9-11 outside of the aviation trust fund to approximately $30,000,000,000, more than Amtrak has cost the taxpayers in its entire 32-year history.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
If you had not written that, I would not have fallen for it.
Good job!
Hey is that Gate Flight 98, 2000 or 2002?
Anywhere I can get that plane? I uh want to learn to take off from Dallas, and navigate to Crawford. Umm, landing not required.
aPril Fools :)
Bill "Newkirk"
In related news, House Republican leaders today announced a proposal for an additional $3.5 billion bailout for the nation’s ailing airlines. This would bring total cash bailouts, loan guarantees, and other taxpayer support since 9-11 outside of the aviation trust fund to approximately $30,000,000,000, more than Amtrak has cost the taxpayers in its entire 32-year history.
I think that the plan cam about because they just couldn't support the hypocracy any more.
“Our proposal to Congress includes $20 billion in capital funding over the next five years to completely rehabilitate the Northeast Corridor between Washington and Boston, the keystone of Amtrak’s national system, which is still operating almost entirely on an infrastructure dating from early in the last century,” said Minneta.
Keep in mind that Amtrak's starvation diet has preserved such Railfan interests as NORTH PHILADELPHIA tower, amber PRR signals, Pneumatic switch machines, the E60's and the Heritage Fleet. This could wind up biting us in the butt.
Are you "lowwater" on Trainorders, or did you plagiarize it?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
If you had not written that, I would not have fallen for it.
Good job!
Hey is that Gate Flight 98, 2000 or 2002?
Anywhere I can get that plane? I uh want to learn to take off from Dallas, and navigate to Crawford. Umm, landing not required.
aPril Fools :)
Bill "Newkirk"
Besides that, it had been a while since anyone actually used it. :)
We, who enjoy all that the site provides, should not expect the Webmaster to cover the whole load.
In related news, House Republican leaders today announced a proposal for an additional $3.5 billion bailout for the nation’s ailing airlines. This would bring total cash bailouts, loan guarantees, and other taxpayer support since 9-11 outside of the aviation trust fund to approximately $30,000,000,000, more than Amtrak has cost the taxpayers in its entire 32-year history.
I think that the plan cam about because they just couldn't support the hypocracy any more.
“Our proposal to Congress includes $20 billion in capital funding over the next five years to completely rehabilitate the Northeast Corridor between Washington and Boston, the keystone of Amtrak’s national system, which is still operating almost entirely on an infrastructure dating from early in the last century,” said Minneta.
Keep in mind that Amtrak's starvation diet has preserved such Railfan interests as NORTH PHILADELPHIA tower, amber PRR signals, Pneumatic switch machines, the E60's and the Heritage Fleet. This could wind up biting us in the butt.
---Brian
Of course, now that the north side of the bridge is closed, it would be useful to be able to send B and/or D trains to Brooklyn via Nassau. (For a brief period in the early 80's, D trains actually did go to Brooklyn via Nassau. They used the connection from Broadway-Laf to Essex, relayed on the bridge, and ran down Nassau from there.)
Understood. But NYC isn't static. Downtown has almost as many lines coming into it as midtown, but only 1/4 the workers (as opposed to the 1900s and 1910s, when the IRT and BMT lines were built). So the demand is much lower, especially on Nassau St., which is hit by a double whammy because (a) it doesn't go to midtown at all, unlike the other lines and (b) the areas it serves in north and east Brooklyn are not the most well off.
Vlad
Save the Slants
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Vlad
Save the Slants
---Brian
too bad !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
---Brian
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
-Stef
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
i rode em on wensday last week
no 7790/7791 7800/7801
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
i rode em on wensday last week
no 7790/7791 7800/7801
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
-Stef
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
-Stef
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
-Stef
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
---Brian
Break me ?????????? R.O .F.L You got a long way before you can Break me lol !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
R-26s had green stickers when they were sunk.
-Stef
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
-Stef
Could this be what I think it is?
thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Either you are mistaken about both the car numbers and the sticker numbers or this is an April Fools joke.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
BTW, an 8 Car Train of R-26/28s last used on the 5 in October were still at Concourse Yard when I saw them a few weeks ago. I wonder what the status is of those cars?
-Stef
Stef that might be what i saw !
Dont you think ????????
---Brian
-Stef
---Brian
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
LOL
..and send the BUSH daughters instead!!
Are you "lowwater" on Trainorders, or did you plagiarize it?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
http://www.geocities.com/robaking_hotmail/ns.htm
-Robert King
-Robert King
-Robert King
Woulda made a HELL of a subway car museum/ride since when I looked into it with a few potential "sponsors" we were told by all municipalities along the way that they'd ALLOW third rail operation as long as the property was fenced in. :(
It ain't Conrail anymore. CPRail/D&H was denied trackage, end of story until we get our OWN regime change here in Amerikkka. But it's the end of the line for the D&H Voorheesville branch. It'll be weeds and trees. :(
Uh, that's it. Who are you, the upstate Jimmy Breslin??!
Lissen' closely now.
"PLONK"
....`n not a moment too soon.
Oh yes, how can I forget. The expression of opinion is a thought crime. I've already notified the authorities. Kiss me, Taliban Man. We've got a shopping Mall here in Albany you might like. To THINK that our children are over there DYING for people like you so IRAQ gets freedom and you republicans take ours away. Blome.
lol
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
I've really had my fill of the aftermath of the Laissez Fairy turning into roller derby and then into demolition derby at the hands of pinheads who can't even pronouce "NU-CLE-AR" ... agggggh. :(
Im just currious Why are R40 "Slants" getting scrapped early this year ????????
i been told that by frend who is a T/O
ive seen a ttrain of R40 slants with brocken windows with two diesels on each end durring 9:30am today towed away from the coney island yard !
thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
i only saw six cars 4434/4435 4319/4320 and 4267/4268
Hope this Helps !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Doug i think you are mistacken i might be young bu i aint Blind !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
When the R-160 order comes in in a few years, the R-40's will be scrapped, along with the R-38's, the R-40M's, the R-42's, and either the R-32's or the R-44's (depending on who you ask).
Fortunately, some continued in service for a few more years over on the Third Avenue El. Even MOVED over to Webster Avenue just so's I could ride them a few more years before the R12's pushed them off there too.
Still, with all of that said, the R-40 is a very unique looking car. It has that distinctive railfan window. Lotsa eccentricities.
And still the R-32's roll on. They're my fave. I think I'll actually get watery eyes when they start their retirement. The slants have a special place in my heart too, because when I was a youngster, still too short to see out of any railfan window, there were the slants with their window out the front for the vertically challenged.
---Brian
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
from what i ve heard i will be going in this order
R40s
R38
R40M
R42
Doesn that suck !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
So, Hipps, Rinos, 142s & 143s yuck.
The C is very unlikely. I see no reason for them to leave the N. As for the other line, who knows? If they stay on the Brighton express, that's the B -- but Concourse Yard only likes R-68's and R-68A's, so they may have to leave the Brighton express. All that's left is the Brighton local, the Q. Or maybe the G? There was talk a while back of the G moving to CI.
My website "NYCTBA may be down in a few sections of the site because I am redesigning it, apparently my Computer was wiped out and all my files were gone, including the NYCTBA files, so instead Im gonna start off fresh, and redesign the website even better, so check back for frequent updates.
In other News, I have been told that we will be rebuilding the L Line and MAYBE in both directions, this is not a promise, we will be adding new textures and walls, So Look out for that. The S Curve Will be taken out and the new connection will be built in BVE.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Suggestion - KEEP the old L line with the old curve - no problem with providing multiple RW files in a route package - that'd be the sweetest way of doing it - new and old, choose. Just a thought ...
I will suggest that, Thanks for the idea
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
My sympathies, bro. Rebuilding is a pain in the butt. And now here we are with Billyware taking over the MTA. (and folks wondered why I believed in tokens - they don't crash or lose their little minds) - :)
ps linix servers can get hacked esaly than windows i happend to me once ! That is why my "toweRs" OS is 90%unix and 10% the "GOOD" ol win Xp pro !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
thanks Selkirk
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Billy won't TELL us what's in the box. Strangely though, he handed it ALL over to the Chinese government but not *OURS* ... I *never* run code I don't know about and can't fix. :)
But this is way WAY off topic for here. I make my living though hacking windows (or letting it BE hacked) and then I go back in and find ways to stop it. But until Billy's willing to let those of us in the security business see (and possibly FIX) the holes we DON'T known about (and cannot see) then ain't no way I'm going to stake my business on a Billybox, or our customers.
Amazing though - he lets CHINA see what's in the box, but not America. Meanwhile we're lambasting the FRENCH when we have an enemy WITHIN. :(
Wit all spyware adware and F*****G pop ups nbilt on winbloose tech will evntialy dissued !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Wit all spyware adware and F*****G pop ups bilt on winbloose tech will evntialy dissued !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
---Brian
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
---Brian
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Want reality, or "policy?" :)
I then went to Broadway Junction and wanted to get some J action over Broadway, and ride the J to it's temporary terminal at Myrtle for today's GO. I took a photo stop at Gates Ave on the way. I decided not to deal with the 24 minute headways the M was on today, and headed back east after Myrtle, with another photo stop at Chauncey Ave. I got a photo of a "Z" train (it was about 1:30), that was signed on the front and back as a "Z", but the side signs did say "J - JC-Myrtle Ave". The J wasn't running that great, so decided to get out and walk back to Broadway Junction from Chauncey, after I took a few photos (thus missing a few JC bound J trains). It always seemed fairly close. Well, that was a mistake, as it was a long walk (at least longer than I figured it would be). Although I got a cool photo of the abandoned western-most mezzanine stairways, which look like they are open from the street, give hours of operation, but look like they are going to completely fall off the El structure. It says "Eastern Parkway Station" on those old stairways.
After that I finally got what I wanted. I got an R42 L train at BJ and rode the railfan window back to Halsey. I finally got what I wanted, however did get a bit sad at the railfan window, as not only did I have to say good-bye to a big part of my childhood (Atlantic Station), I basically also sort of officially said good-bye to the L's railfan window view in this probably-last-R42-railfan-window ride I will ever have also on the L - another big piece of my childhood vanishing.
I really enjoyed this quick tour of Atlantic and a small section of Broadway. I officially said my good-bye to both Atlantic Ave, and the L's R42's - not many trainsets left there at all......sigh.........
the 42s the 32s 40ms and the beloved slant 40s all becoming a part of history ! "Damn" time is fast !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Slants a a good pice of history !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
The change was supposed to take place this past weekend, but was squashed due to high winds. This weekend (4/5 & 4/6) the big change is supposed to happen.
GOODBYE SNEIDKER "EL".
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I managed to catch one of two(?) R-42 sets on the L right away at Union Square, and the midday GO wasn't running, so I went straight to Canarsie and back to Broadway Junction, then the J to Myrtle and the last wrong-railing M of the day to Chambers, where I got off to check out the mainline Redbird scene. (Shall I continue?)
You were luckier than me yesterday! I saw both sets yesterday, but missed them both when I first got to Broadway Junction, and they were headed to Manhattan (two in a row). Luckily I did get one at the end of my trip described above.
I was on the L line for a while yesterday, and I think I had seen much of the fleet. I only saw two sets of R42 and one set of R40M....so you may be right...possibly only two sets left.
This afternoon, I was planning to take the L from Manhattan to Myrtle, ride the M single-track over the bridge to Essex and back
I wanted to do that yesterday also, but due to time constraints (I had to be somewhere later), I couldn't deal with the M's 24 minute headways. The part I did on the J took longer than I expected, especially after staying at Gates Ave for a few train photos, because the J seemed to have long headways also yesterday. I was originally also planning to get off at Kosciuscko too, but I decided to wait until the J was running normal.
and the midday GO wasn't running, so I went straight to Canarsie and back to Broadway Junction, then the J to Myrtle and the last wrong-railing M of the day to Chambers
What GO was supposed to happen on the L today? It was running normal yesterday also.
where I got off to check out the mainline Redbird scene. (Shall I continue?)
Always love to hear that.....
I had a copy of the schedule with me so I knew I wouldn't have to wait long. I had actually wanted to stay on the L to Myrtle and get the M there, but I didn't know if I'd have enough time for that, so I transferred to the J. Naturally, I just missed one, and headways did seem to be greater than usual. But I caught the M in time, though someone had already claimed the window.
What GO was supposed to happen on the L today? It was running normal yesterday also.
Single-track shuttle between BJ and Canarsie, scheduled for weekday middays until April 11. It was probably cancelled the entire week because of the weekend's setback.
Always love to hear that.....
Sure.
I got to Brooklyn Bridge around 3. At 3:29 (according to my watch), a Redbird set pulled in on the SB track. I grabbed the reverse railfan window and rode to Utica, and then claimed the railfan window for the ride all the way up to Woodlwn (as the front rollsign calls it -- really!). I had hoped to ride back down on the same train, at least to 149-GC and possibly all the way to Fulton or into Brooklyn, but it was removed from service, so I returned to 149-GC on the R-142 (Bombardier) set across the platform. This happened at about 5:13.
Redbird: N9232-9233-9240-9241-9160-9161-9303-9302-9109-9108S
Only 9232-9233 had bona fide orange stickers. 9240-9241 and 9303-9302 had orange-over-black, 9160-9161 had plain black (9160 had its bulkhead signs set as a 5 to Dyre), and 9109-9108 had no stickers.
R-142: N7136-7137-7138-7139-7140-7180-7179-7178-7177-7176S
Lots of Redbirds in Concourse Yard. These are the reserve cars, I presume.
---Brian
My aim this Sunday is to both ride and photograph -- specifically on the Livonia el. At weekend headways, there's no guarantee that any will be running, but I'm hoping at least one will be out there due to the increased run time. You in?
I would assume you are correct because whatever was the reason for the canceled Go was probably finishing touches on the new alignment AFTER it was in effect. Since it didn't happen - no need for the GO.
DO you know how that single tracking was supposed to run? It seems like a long stretch for only one train to run back and forth. When they would do track work on the M for example, between Metro and Myrtle, they would single track it, but in two sections meeting at Wyckoff or Seneca, depending on where they were doing the work. It's easier there because of island platforms, and easy to switch between connecting trains fast, and without stairs. The L doesn't have that luxury in the middle stations. Sutter, Livonia and New Lots, the stations in the middle, are all side platforms. And it wouldn't make much sense for it to meet at 105th St. So it sounds like this single tracking train could actually be the ONLY train running back and forth? Looooooooong headways!
I rode it a few weekends ago -- after transferring from the 3, which was also single-tracking in the same area, between Utica and Livonia.
I understand it may rain this weekend.
There are (were) three platforms and 6 tracks at Atlantic Ave. I'm going to look towards Canarsie, and call the current Manhattan-bound platform - platform 1, middle platform - platform 2, Canarsie-bound-platform - platform 3.
What ran where and in what direction?
-The left of platform 1 has been abandoned for years.
-The right of platform 2 is the current Manhattan bound Canarsie/14th Street line. Was it always?
-The left and right of platform 2 has been abandoned for years. What service ran there, and in what directions.
-The left of platform 3 has been abandoned for years, and will be the new Manhattan bound Canarsie/14th ST Service.
-the right of platform is the current Canarsie bound Canarsie/14th St service.
I know one service missing is the Canarsie/Fulton El service. Which tracks did that use.
What was the third service? Canarise/Broadway El? Did that use the middle platform? I thought it used the same tracks that the current Canarsie/14th St service uses (pre snediker el abandonment).
Platform 1:
Left - Downtown Fulton Service Lefferts-Sands St (Park Row) or (Futon Ferry). Also, possible Fulton (Lefferts)-Bway-Lex?
Right - Canarsie-14st or Canarsie-Bway El
Platform 3:
Left - Fulton service from Sands St or (Park Row) or (Futon Ferry)to Lefferts or Bway El to Canarsie or Lex-Bway-Fulton (Lefferts
Right - 14 st - Canarsie
Platform 2:
May have been used for trains terminating at Atlantic of 14th St -Lefferts service? What about Fulton Expresses west of Atlantic since between Atlantic and Franklin the El was 3 track dual-contract elevated.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I think all four of them were for the Fulton El, merging into three tracks to the east and three merged into two to the west, the fourth went into the yard, or something like that...
That was a big mistake. While these mezzanines need not be converted back to fare controls, they at least could have been modified with HEET's as an alternate exit/entrance. If crime and vandalism is a big threat, then they could have abandoned just the mezzanine part and left the stairways for the HEET's. The fare controls at the other end could have been used as a cross under.
Unfortunately, the purge of unused "el" mezzanines was before Metrocard. But at least, they could have left them, but who knew ? I've seen some formerly abandoned fare controls reopened as Metrocard entrances. One might be the southbound Atlantic Ave IRT, which is undergoing rehab. If you go all the way to the south end of the #2 & #3 platform, that long unused exit had new fluorescent lighting installed. Possibly future Metrocard entrance ?
Bill "Newkirk"
True, you are right, I didn't think of it that way. Actually, I was going to post a question about this in a future post, but you may have already partially answered it, but I guess it seems fitting to ask now.
My question is this. On the Broadway El, they seemed to rebuild the platform stairways to all the abandoned mezzanines, even though they are currently still closed. At those stations, the canopies originally did not fully cover the stairways (at either the in use or abandoned stairways). During the renovations on Broadway, they went through great lengths to not only extend the canopies completely over the in use stairways, but also did that over the abandoned stairways at the opposite ends which are still abandoned. Even the stairs were replaced.
I was going to ask why they even bothered to do this, but you may have answered my question. Maybe they were thinking that as ridership rises at some of the Broadway El stations due to a lot of the contruction in the neighborhood going on there, they may actually open some of these abandoned exits to MetroCard only mexxanines?
In this way, all the neglect to the subway stations along the Broadway El may actually be a plus for those stations. Most of the extra mezzanines at elevated stations that had more use all along, thus better kept stations, did loose these extra mezzanines, while Broadway's stations that were much neglected in the past due to lower ridership got to keep them in the general neglect of the stations.
Without the Atlantic Ocean, there won't be an East River.
And all of the new east coast volcanos that will form will probably have destroyed NYC long before.
Well then I probably won't be here to make one of these trips.
Maybe they should leave the Snediker el. That's gotta be long enough for four or five trainsets right there.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
---Brian
and
the Inquirer article
Thanks
rob@rodcogroup.com
Obviously a railroader's lantern, but I could not make out all the lettering on it.
Tom
Thanks
ROB
Sean
Temple University
I think it's important to remmeber that the spur as originally planned was part of a much larger line that was never built. Which brings me to a question: what would you like to see become of this service? I remember a neat idea one subtalker had for extending it northwest, still under Ridge Avenue past where it meets Broad Street. I don't remember where he said it should ultimately go, but I would continue in the same northwest direction to provide subway service to Germantown.
Other ideas?
Mark
Sean
Temple University
What killed the planned route was NIMBYs in the Rittenhouse Sq area(they were a problem back in the eary part of last century, particularly this type of people, they were Philly`s wealthiest and most powerful residents back then), and the general inability to get things done in this city (a problem that exists to this day). The city gave up on this route, eventually settling on the alternatives that exist today (the Subway-Surface tunnel to 40th st, and the eventual use of the Locust St Subway, which gave way to its use by PATCO today).
The spur's glory days are past, particularly since the demise of 2 out of the three department stores that once crowded 8th and Market, Gimbels and Lit Brothers. I remember the traffic on the spur filled a four car train, not the tiny two car train SEPTA now runs. Now the spur is a shortcut to the Gallery, as well as commuting students from NJ going to Temple U. If the subway was being built today, the spur would not have been built.
Sean
Temple University
Sean
Temple University
There is also a shitty concourse leading from North Broad Street and Arch to the 15th Street/Suburban Station complex, but I doubt it's what you were talking about.
a one time poster "bobw" IIRC had a map.
Of course given the evolution of the 'homeless' much has been closed off.
Sean
Temple University
Mark
Sean
Temple University
Sean
Temple University
Sean
Temple University
The No Broad Concorse ran from the north end exit of BS City Hall Sta. uphill to Race St. - as it crossed Arch St. the quite deep stairways gave evidence of the distribution system where it would have curved under office building now closed (SE cor Broad St. at Arch St)
Also the No Broad concorse connected Reading RR station (Now motel) with No Phila Subway Sta at Lehigh Ave and two blocks north with PRR No Phl Sta.
I rode the "spur" once in a while in the early eighties when the B1 cars were still used. I was amused at the sight of the conductor working with his door open and reading a newspaper and only looking up and out the window to see if anyone was being scraped or dragged by the departing train.
-Stef
P.S. Will try and hit the sheets early, gotta 7AM meeting with Sparky. Time to work on the Lady In Red....
---Brian
FOR EVERY R143 THAT ARRIVES, WE ARE GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO PUTTING THE R40 SLANTS INTO A COFFIN!!!
If the redbirds being sunk doesn't strike a nerve for some of those here - maybe THAT will!
---Brian
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=469114
---Brian
Would I really want to ride in a Redbird? No question.
IIRC, you ride the 7. It's widely acknowledged that the 7's Redbirds are in much worse condition than the R-33's that used to run on the 2 and 5. Most of them were never "rusted out."
No, YOU DON'T LOVE THEM, because if you did, you'd KNOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO GO.
Hmmm, because of that the:
R40
R40M
R42
R32
R38
R62
R62A
R44
R46
and especially the
R68 and R68A should all go also.
Which Redbirds? The ones on the 7 are very different from the ones just removed from the 5, you know.
Scractchiti is common.
On all subway cars.
I find that the seating was actually spread out, leaving spaces in them, allowing trash to build up.
There are gaps between seats on all subway cars. If you don't think the car cleaners are doing their job properly, that's hardly the fault of the cars themselves.
Some of the end doors open and close randomly,
The storm doors? At least it's possible to walk between cars safely. On the R-142's, only three-armed mutants can walk between cars safely.
If a door latch is broken, it can be repaired or replaced.
the announcement quality aren't as good, etc...
Not as loud, you mean (but they don't have a loud HVAC system to compete against, so they don't need to be as loud). C/R's on Redbirds tend not to announce the B and D trains at Atlantic Avenue, they don't announce late night local trains as expresses, and they don't announce PATH at Park Place. They modify their announcements for the GO's that they know about. They often give useful information about the available transfers instead of a flat list of numbers and letters. They pace their announcements appropriately so they don't have to cut themselves off mid-sentence to close the doors at a quiet station. And each one speaks slightly differently. I used to enjoy riding the 2/5 in the Bronx. Now I dread hearing that voice make the exact same announcements I heard last time in the exact same way.
I love the Redbirds, but I know when they have to go.
The ones on the 5 that just went through SMS were in perfectly good shape and would have easily lasted a few more years. Instead, they were pulled, and now we're left with the cars that really are in poor shape.
I'm talking about the 7's Redbirds, solely. From my experiences, the ML's Redbirds were better to go.
On all subway cars.
Yeah, I already figured that out from reading GP38's post.
There are gaps between seats on all subway cars. If you don't think the car cleaners are doing their job properly, that's hardly the fault of the cars themselves.
The gaps on the 7 that I find are much wider than other rolling stocks. So much you can stick your hand there, but point taken. I did exaggerate.
The storm doors? At least it's possible to walk between cars safely. On the R-142's, only three-armed mutants can walk between cars safely.
That's a matter of opinion. I see people on the 6 using the end doors all the time. I have no problem with it as well.
Not as loud, you mean (but they don't have a loud HVAC system to compete against, so they don't need to be as loud). C/R's on Redbirds tend not to announce the B and D trains at Atlantic Avenue, they don't announce late night local trains as expresses, and they don't announce PATH at Park Place. They modify their announcements for the GO's that they know about. They often give useful information about the available transfers instead of a flat list of numbers and letters. They pace their announcements appropriately so they don't have to cut themselves off mid-sentence to close the doors at a quiet station. And each one speaks slightly differently. I used to enjoy riding the 2/5 in the Bronx. Now I dread hearing that voice make the exact same announcements I heard last time in the exact same way.
No, the announcements I hear on the 7 have plenty of static which I know is a problem the TA can't handle, unfortunately. Other than that, a good read.
The ones on the 5 that just went through SMS were in perfectly good shape and would have easily lasted a few more years. Instead, they were pulled, and now we're left with the cars that really are in poor shape.
Which proves my point. I think the MTA should have gotten rid of the WF's cars, move the ML cars to Corona and then start bringing the new rolling stock to the ML. I guess the MTA could have done that.
Finally, I'd like to say I was talking about the 7's Redbirds if you weren't aware of that before. I sohlud have also mentioned the fact that these cars are made of carbon steel have doomed us to this situation we have right now of reefing them. There, that was a doozy. :)
-Stef
I really really hope that at least one of them will be out on Sunday for the GO. (I'd prefer to see one on the 5, but that seems quite unlikely.)
As for R142s bumping out de boids, it's all over!!! Last roster had 12 on #5 and highly unlikely a ten-pack will appear. It'll be scratchittied 'X-Men' R142s from now on. CI peter
wayne
I understand from past discussions, that PATH Trains could physically run on the Lex tracks, but the curves would be too sharp in the New Jersey Tunnels to allow the NYCT Division A Trains to run on the PATH.
Besides the obvious political problems, what are some of the other issues and how realistic is this goal.
---Brian
Sounds like all it needs is $1 billion, give or take (which probably makes it very unrealistic). With a moderate amount of construction, the 6 and the PATH could each be extended underneath Vesey St., allowing trains to run between the Lex local and either Hoboken or Newark.
The other question is, how valuable is this? It sounds like it would still be quicker to get from Newark to GCT the old fashioned way, via Penn Station. And Hoboken will be getting less important once the Secaucus transfer is completed.
NJ almost certainly has far higher priorities to fund, while NY has no real reason to fund this.
Hoboken is a vibrant city filled with people who work and play in manhattan. Such a connector would dramatically increase housing development on the other side of the river.
It would also add addtioal office development along the path tracks as it make it easier for NYC residents to work in hoboken, jersey city and along other path stations.
I agree with that. Look at all the transportation options available there. Train, streetcar, subway, bus, ferry. A place with all that cannot help but remain prominent in the local scheme of things. With the LRT getting extended northwards, even submerging into a lengthy subway stretch, the entire "Gold Coast" is taking on a true urban character.
There's already development happening along the tracks.
Arti
I seriously doubt that. Unless a person has some hatered toward PATH, one has no reason to use Secaucus transfer. Timewise it's almost a wash (look at NJT timetables and not taking into account of NJT to Penn being less reliable than to Hoboken) but in Hoboken you get an empty train, more destinations and air conditioned place to wait the departure.
Making Secaucus a terminal instead of Hoboken, extending PATH and terminating NJT Turnpike buses there could make this investment perhaps useful, IMHO.
Arti
PATH from HOB to 33RD takes the same time as NJT from Secaucus to Penn.
Arti
I agree, 1/2 billion later, nothing really has changed.
Arti
Could PATH still build their 9th Street Crosstown line to the east side, and then up to Grand Central? Or have developments like the 6th Avenue NYCS tracks cut off this option?
Yes, it does, but it can't handle it.
---Brian
The local can handle more traffic below 42nd St., especially uptown in the morning and downtown in the evening.
Additionally, PATH trips are B Division style, so either PATH would need to change sides or all cars used for this service would need dual trips.
Could PATH still build their 9th Street Crosstown line to the east side, and then up to Grand Central?
There's a piece of the tunnel there, actually. But you don't want to use it as it would involve an at-grade crossover, blocking both directions of the existing PATH service when merging. The H&M was built entirely with flying junctions (in fact, they abandoned the original south uptown tunnel because of this) except for the 9th St. spur.
PATH cars use lower profile wheels than NYCT. IRT cars would run the risk of scraping the tunnel ceilings.
Bill "Newkirk"
It wouldn't need more track capacity if you just extend the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to the PATH tracks. That doesn't make it a good idea, however.
STOOPIT IDEA!
Not if it attaches to the local tracks at BB.
"2) where in GCT or any place else do they propose to turn the foolish things."
Run them all the way to Pelham Bay.
"STOOPIT IDEA!"
I can't see that this is the best use for $1 billion or so, and I don't see either NY or NJ funding it, but it's not totally moronic either.
I believe that the sides of PATH are more steeply sloped inward above the belt line.
The PATH PA series cars are 48' long while NYCT IRT cars are 51' long.
Bill "Newkirk"
51' x 10 = 510'
48' x 11 = 528'
So just run 11 car trains.
So just run 11 car trains.
That certainly doesn't work at GCT, unless you make the end doors inoperative. It would be pretty expensive to extend the local platforms by 18'. There are almost certainly pillars supporting buildings above in the way. And you'd end up with a seriously curved platform.
You're assuming the existing space between the ends of the cars and the doors hasn't already been used in making the GCT platforms serve 10-car IRT trains.
I think you mean that PATH tunnels can accommodate IRT trains but IRT tunnels might not accommodate PATH trains.
But in this post Joe V says "IRT cars are 2 inches higher", and he suggests that IRT cars might not fit into PATH tunnels. Which way round is it, and do you agree with Joe V's conclusions?
The tunnel would have to split off from the current City Hall loop somewhere around the front of the abandoned platform (hope thet front part isn't landmarked), pass over the 2/3 tunnen coming across City Hall Park from Park Place to Beekman St. and then start diving down, so it can get under not only the N/R Broadway tracks at Vescey St. but also the A/C tracks coming down Church and turning onto Fulton St. from there, it would continue to descend, before connecting up with the current PATH tracks after they leave the rebuilt WTC station.
As for the uptown terminal, the trains couldn't be turned at Grand Central, but they can be turned on the center track between 59th and 68th Sts. on the local, and 59th St. is as logical a terminal for it as Grand Central (the Low Vs were turned their back in 1979 during their special runs on the Lex as part of the 75th anniversary IRT celebration).
On the other hand, hooking the PATH tracks up to the Lex via either a grade crossing at Ninth St. and Sixth Ave. or by splitting a line off between the Christopher and Ninth St. stations and running it across West Fourth Street would be far cheaper, since it would avoid having to dig under as many lines. Ninth St. would be the cheapest option of all, since the start of the tunnel is already there and the trains could hook into the Lex local tracks south of Union Square, but a West Fourth tunnel would allow for no grade crossing and two additional area stations. The PATH trains could stop at Astor Place on the Lex, and then have another stop at West Fourth St. and Sixth Ave. -- using part of the mezzanine between the Eighth Ave. IND trains upstairs and the Sixth Ave. trains downstairs as the platform.
Neither is likely to happen unless the PA, MTA, New York and New Jersey all suddenly find better peace, love and understanding, but it is interesting to speculate about.
Routing the Downtown 6 to WTC isn't THAT hard - there are 2 tracks already alongside the Lex Express to Fulton which could be used without touching the City Hall Loop. They still go OVER the 7th Avenue Express and the line would need to go under the Broadway Local if not under the 8th Avenue Line.
Coming back uptown is harder. It might be easiest to dig under everything, build a new platform below the existing Lex Local Uptown Platform at Brooklyn Bridge before rising to take the local tracks.
Not quite the Coney Island Cyclone, but not practical for a New York City subway car (to be fair, you could reopen the original H&M tunnel into/out of the old Hudson Terminal station and slope the trains down gradually to meet the PATH tubes somewhere under the World Financial Center, but you'd still have to figure a way to get the tunnel past both the N/R tracks on Vescey and the A/C tracks turning off Church and onto Fulton).
It would not be 59th Street, it would be Pelham Bay Park. The NWK-WTC and the 6 become one in the same, still with the ability to loop trains back as they do now.
The uptown PATH is to slow and means an at grade junction at 9th Street.
The downtown Manhattan tubes will be under-utilized with ridership expected to be down 25%. Reverse peak 6 trains are also very under-utilized. PATH is also setting up EXPL and WTC to accomodate 10 car trains. The other stations to Newark can be easily converted, including Grove Street.
And going from the City Hall loop to PATH would be the smaller of the two concerns. Getting the trains up from the PATH station to Brooklyn Bridge would be the biggest obsticle to overcome.
If the trains stopped at the outer (furthest east) platform at the new PATH station, it would then have to make a sharp right turn onto Vescey St. from a full stop and begin going uphill. Remember, because of the slope of the streets in lower Manhattan, the City Hall loop, which is two levels below the ground there, is the equiavlent of street level at Vescey and Greenwhich. The 1/9 tunnel at Cortlandt St. is one level below that, and the PATH station is three levels beneath the IRT tracks.
That means in a stretch of five blocks, with a 45-degree curve at Vescey and B'way/Park Row, the tracks would have to rise four levels, or roughly 60 feet, to connect the PATH tracks with the IRT Lex tracks. And the tracks would have to make that 60 foot climb by the time the tunnel got to Park Row and Beekman St., because the tracks have to go above the 2/3 tracks coming across the park.
There are other climbs of similar steepness -- the Culver express tracks coming from one level below the local at the start of Carroll St. to the Smith-9th viaduct is the most obvious example. But trains there get a running start at the climb. These trains would have only slightly more ability to pick up speed than the N/R does around the Vescey curve, which would mean either a very s-l-o-w climb to B'klyn Bridge or would require special cars with more powerful motors, a la the old Low V Steinways for the Flushing line.
It could be done, but it would be both more costly to dig and mre problematic to run than a connection either across West Fourth or Ninth streets. And the grade crossing at Ninth St. would be a problem (which is why I think a West Fourth hookup with a flying junction beneath Christopher St. at Sheridan Square would be better), but if the decision was ever made to hook up PATH and the IRT, they would just have to do a cost/benefit anaylsis and see if the savings in construction was worth the future delays in time.
"PATH is FRA compliant; the Lex is not. Legally, you couldn't do it at all."
This is a non-answer. Getting the law amended is child's play compared to the other problems that would need to be solved.
You're seriously underestimating this. Do you understand the quagmire you just stepped into?
It would be as difficult a single issue as any other, not more and not less.
Serious. It make the economics of installing such a system a more compelling argument.
Concider yourself lucky that the MTA is so inept and does not already have ATO running system wide.
Enjoy the handle while you can. Subway train operators will got the way of the Elevator operator withing the next 50 years
Don't be surprised if freight lines go to automated operation over the next 20 years. As it is, it is almost impossible to stop a long freight train based on visual observations.
I don't hate train operators or engineers. I am just being realistic
Seems that this proposal, which was discussed in this forum, may be picking up steam.
Also see http://www.nj-arp.org/path_lex.html
for the original proposal dated 18JUL2002.
If the two systems (IRT and PATH) are compatible, and it seems that they probably are, this seems to be a very good plan.
The line would provide a one-seat ride from Newark to Pelham Bay Park via the WTC and Grand Central. The work should be eligible for FEMA funding, as it improves transit in Lower Manhattan, unlike the Fulton Center which has no transit benefit.
There are only 3 differences between IRT and PATH cars that I see: IRT cars are 2 inches higher, PATH truck centers are 3 feet closer, and PATH cars have a longer draft gear with possibly more swing. It does not automatically render thru-rounting of some #6's to NWK an impossibility.
All that would have to be done is make whatever clearances needed on PATH for an R142A and get them double tripcocks.
Or as MTA puts it: "Fulton Street Transit Center: The $750 million project will improve access to and connections between 12 subway lines for hundreds of thousands of daily commuters and Lower Manhattan residents and visitors, and will link NYC Transit facilities with PATH service and the World Trade Center site."
So $750 million of FEMA money is to be squandered on pedestrian links with fancy architecture.
Unlike the Fulton Center, the PATH — Lexington link would be a transit link.
The illustration on The New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers site shows the PATH terminal grayed out, suggesting that it would not be needed. Instead, through trains would stop at a new regular subway station. The money saved by not building the Fulton Street Transit Center and by not building the permanent PATH terminal should go a long way towards paying for the PATH — Lexington link, the subway station, and the modifications that you mention.
The new line would have to pass under the 1/9 and under the N/R, but would it pass under or over the A/C and the 2/3?
The NJ-ARP plan seems to show the new line passing over both the A/C and the 2/3, but it's not very clear. J Lee had the line passing under the A/C but over the 2/3. And you envision a line passing under both the A/C and the 2/3. I don't know which of these ways of threading the needle are feasible. But I think your solution would work, because there are sidings (the yard) south of City Hall that pass under the 2/3, as shown on the track maps on this site.
I am not sure what difficulties if any would arise from the northbound merge with the City Hall loop.
Of course if all trains were through trains there would be no more need for the City Hall loop or for the PATH loop terminal.
How many people are clamoring for a one-seat ride between Newark and Pelham Bay Park?
The work should be eligible for FEMA funding, as it improves transit in Lower Manhattan, unlike the Fulton Center which has no transit benefit.
The Fulton Transit Center does indeed have numerous transit benefits. It creates new connections between a number of lines that never had them, improves connections that previously existed (thereby reducing commute times), and reduces dwell times at Fulton Street by improving passenger circulation along the platforms. It also makes the station ADA compliant.
Go ahead and argue—if you want—that these benefits aren't worth the cost, but at least you should have your facts straight.
None, but there is a demand to get from Jersey to Grand Central, and from the Lex local line to the financial district.
The Fulton Transit Center does indeed have numerous transit benefits.
Admittedly the new pedestrian connections will save time and add convenience, and I was wrong to ignore those benefits.
Seems that this proposal, which was discussed in this forum, may be picking up steam.
Also see http://www.nj-arp.org/path_lex.html
for the original proposal dated 18JUL2002.
1) PATH would have to be resignaled. Trippers would have to be moved.
2) What about PATH employees, their unions ? They're not civil service.
3) My earlier post stated that PATH wheels are low profile while NYCT cars sit higher.
4) You can't run ten car trains on PATH.
This idea ranks with extending the #7 line to New Jersy as talked about a few years ago and the recent ranting about taking over the Cranberry tubes (A Line) for LIRR WTC - Jamaica service. Save the billion or so dollars for the SAS.
Bill "Newkirk"
I see that the map was produced by the Lower Manhattan Development Corp, which suggests that this project was considered eligible for FEMA funding. It's too late now, but there would have been no need for a permanent PATH terminal. A regular subway station would have been built at WTC instead. The advantages would have been to connect the Lexington local line to the financial district and Jersey, and to connect Jersey to the Lexington local line including Grand Central.
Also, there is a difference in the signalling system of PATH from NYCT. PATH uses the NORAC system (same as LIRR) which is a North American mainline standard signalling system. In short, it is a system of various lights and their positions relative to one another. Whereas the IRT system -- like the rest of NYCT subways -- is based on color aspects and their meanings when used in various combinations.
http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/path/path-signals.html
Totally unrealistic when the Lex Ave IRT tracks are at 110% capacity during both rush periods. Express is max out at 24 tph, locals a bit more at around 25-26 tph. And they want to add PATH trains to Grand Central with at least 10 TPH more? Oh, I forgot, where will PATH trains relay?
DUH!
"The Central Line is to be restored to the centre of London from first thing on Thursday morning, 3 April.
Tube Managing Director Paul Godier announced the return of a limited service to the busiest part of the Central Line to MPs at a House of Commons Select Committee hearing today.
The restoration of limited services means that two shuttles introduced in recent weeks on the west and east sections of the Central Line will effectively be 'joined up', with services finally running through the capital's West End."
Peace,
ANDEE
The MTA IG's office is a separate entities then any of the operations the operate bus, rail and bridges units. They do not report to any of the Presidents of say NYC Transit or LIRR.
Concidering the IG's office released made public there findings on the 2 broadway case yesterday leads me to believe that they may be looking into other matters concerning corruption in construction contracts.
This involves going through hundreds of boxes of paper records, talking to confidentional informants on the ground. These cases take months to put together inorder to successfully procecute the case.
I have personally headed up involving fraud in construction contracts similar to the 2 broadway case. It is not as cut and dry as it may seem. Most likely in the two broadway case, the investigators suspect that $50 million is actually stolen but $5 million is they can prove with a reasonable doubt in court.
Most of these cases are assisted by CI turncoast who rat out people higher up the chain.
If the MTA had robust real time database of all construction activities that tracks quality of past work, who is subcontracting on the project, all transaction including all material purchaces, where and when the material were used, all supliers on the jobs, who is working onthe job, what hours, credentials etc the MTA would save billion of dollars a year. YES BILLIONS.
The database would be able to flag any improper behavior by contracts immediatly prior to the MTA loosing money. If the contractors know this they will be less likely to flargrantly participate in these fradulant activities.
I currently work for a consulting company that deploys the above technology.
The security chief appears to want to work on cases that are the juridiction of the IG's office. The problem we had over at DOI and most likely is the same at the MTA IG's office and the office of is that the security director goal may be differnt then that of the IG's office. The IG wants to procecute construction fraud cases and the secutity director is looking to close securties varnabilites that these contractors may have access to.
Making public certain allagation prior to the IG having all the information it needs to procecute the case would jeperdise the IG's Case. It is the classic case of a power struggle when crimainal security cases overlap with operational finacial cases. I have seen this a number of time's where two teams are investigating the same person or company for two different matters. The matter is ussually settled by an outside third party with one side loosing there case.
Lets not start throwing the coverup word around prior to knowing all the facts for which the public will not be shared with
The security director can help reduce vulnerabilities to fraud. The IG can help by providing trends in what he has had to prosecute.
2) The IG can then prosecute whatever fraud doesn't get blocked by the security director's actions.
Lets not kid ourselves to think Pataki does not have influence over the IG's office to stop a particular investigation
Well, more like "there's room for interpretation."
Part of the problem is that Anemone is like an attack dog. That's both good and bad. But he will agggressively move against something he thinks is within his domain, and try to put the fear of God in people who get in his way. It also tends to allow him to take shortcuts which land him in trouble.
To some extent, his style was useful when he was Chief of Department and running Compstat sessions. (But you can still take that too far).
But in his new job, where an Xacto Knife (spelling?) is more appropriate than a sledgehammer, he kept swinging the sledgehammer.
And there's just no excuse for lying.
"Lets not kid ourselves to think Pataki does not have influence over the IG's office to stop a particular investigation"
True, true, though even Pataki has to weigh the risks.
Don't get your issues confused. Anemone was deposed and he betrayed everyone's trust. He both legally and morally met the standard for dismissal, period. There's no controversy there at all.
His question of criminal guilt or innocence will be decided in court.
The issue of corruption in the agency is a separate one, serious and deserving of investigation.
I shouldn't have said what I said. But are you sure that there is no controversy regarding what he did?
There is plenty of controversy over the specific details - but that's for Richard Brown, the District Attorney, to work out in court.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is called the "LiveCrashCam" and is set up tp point at a spot where Metro-North goes on a bridge over a street in Port Chester, NY. A lot of trucks hit the bridge so this guy set up a ca mto watch it. It updates about every 5 seconds. This sohuld make for some good train watching :) Read here for talk about the bridge and the truck crashes. Also includes photos.
---Brian
http://bwass.net
It is called the "LiveCrashCam" and is set up to point at a spot where Metro-North goes on a bridge over a street in Port Chester, NY. A lot of trucks hit the bridge so this guy set up a cam to watch it. It updates about every 5 seconds. This should make for some good train watching :) Read here for talk about the bridge and the truck crashes. Also includes photos.
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
There is also a link (lost it) to a webcam on the flushing line I think near 33rd Street. When it first came on I was all excited seeing the first R62 train or two there, now it could be useful for the remaining redbirds.
Does anyone still have that link? I used to enjoy sitting here in England and watching Redbirds live in Queens....
What isn't funny about those trucks is that we had an overpass like that in Cincinnati, that met the road at an angle and turned the trucks over when they hit. A truck turned over onto a car and, well, let's just say it's the truck driver who survived. No, truck drivers don't read signs, they meet schedules. Sad.
---Brian
Chuck Greene
---Brian
What route is this and is it a heavy truck route?
How are these bridges measured? I'm sketchy about an actual measurement since a truck a hair over the clearance of a bridge can actually overtake it by smudging through. Yet, there is another concrete flatbridge under the NEC under Grove Av., that is signed as 13'-10", (the road dips down) although truckers doubt their trucks can get through.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/72128p-66867c.html
I'm surprised. The temptation to use money just because it's there can be overwhelming. There's not much wrong with South Ferry; I'm glad to see they're rethinking spending $500 million to fix the little that is wrong just because FEMA will pay.
There's a lot that's wrong with South Ferry. You may not be familiar with the demands placed on a station like that, and the impact of not having access for the disabled and others who need a more accessible station.
"I'm glad to see they're rethinking spending $500 million to fix the little that is wrong just because FEMA will pay."
You're not making sense, unless you only intend to serve die-hard railbuffs. They're rethinking the design because of its impact on the park, and that's fine. I don't think they should sautomsatically spend $500 million on it, but as someone very familiar with the environs and ADA, I do think (and so do a lot of people ) that the station can be improved and modernized to accept 10 train cars. And as an important terminal for the ferry, and an important feeder into what will be the new WTC, that's very important.
I agree. Just I don't see why they can't just extend the platform westward along the track and put in an elevator. More like $100 million than $500 million.
OK. I agree with you that this should be done inexpensively if possible - but considering that South Ferry is a terminal, hooks up to the Ferry, and is the West End's major rail artery, spending some money to redo it properly isn't a bad idea.
The MTA's idea of redoing it properly reduces the the West End's major rail artery's capacity from 40 tph to 20 tph.
If you have a better idea, write to MTA with it and post their reply here.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/72128p-66867c.html
Meanwhile, rebuilding officials exploring a one-seat ride from lower Manhattan to Kennedy Airport are looking at a plan to create a "hybrid" subway car that could use existing rail lines and the light-rail AirTrain tracks connecting the airport to Jamaica Station, sources said.
---Brian
wayne
---Brian
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree. The only design that could possibly be worse, and impossible to do is what some Subfans proposed. :0)
i like the sound of the idea !
even better some R40 "slants"
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
But you don't know how to do that. It's easy to call someone else's project a toy; much harder to prove you actually have a better idea that can work.
"Better yet, we'd be seeing trains passing newly-rebuilt stations like Ozone Park-101 Avenue, Woodhaven, Brooklyn Manor-Jamaica Ave, Parkside, Rego Park etc."
But you don't know how to do that either. Talk is cheap. You can say whatever you want about AirTrain or the Port Authority, but they have a lot more to show for their efforts than a few Subtalk posts.
A one-unit train of Triplexes on a nice steel El would work. Whether it's a better idea or not is another matter.
There are dozens of threads on this subject. It keeps getting rehashed in part because nobody reads them.
The key is to dig underground. This cannot be an at-grade line or elevated line. Do cut and cover if that's the cheapest way, or use a TBM.
---Brian
How would it increase tph? Usually loops are better than terminals at handling a lot of trains. Is there anything about South Ferry that prevents 30 tph?
---Brian
If the loop were east of the platform, either the platform would have to be moved much further west (far less convenient to the ferry terminal), or else the loop would have to be moved further east. The latter would mean a new loop that has to avoid one or both BMT subway lines.
Better still, the interlocking could be moved West of the station, and an island platform created between the two straightened and elongated loops - this would mean that all trains on the left-hand platform would run on the Lex Express and all on the right would run on the 7th Ave Local. A coincidental benefit of this is that South Ferry would gain off-peak 5 train service.
Now would be a good time for one of you to actually author a letter to MTA and say so. Who knows - maybe they'll find a way to do it.
Your statement has no basis in reality. What James is suggesting, if it is feasible, would not cost anything close to what ytou are saying, and it would accomplish both of the goals you have stated.
Of course, if you're posting just to see yourself posted, that's a different issue. :0)
The MTA has at one point proposed something about half as complicated, and put a ballpark estimate of $500 million on it. Therefore I don't think I am way off.
Maybe they could do James' plan for $700 million. But it's massively more money than would be needed for just extending the current platforms westward and adding an elevator, which solves the main existing problems.
You're $500 million off. If that isn't way off I don't know what is.
"Maybe they could do James' plan for $700 million."
Back to your own (unsupported) budgeting. You have nothing to support that with.
"just extending the current platforms westward and adding an elevator, which solves the main existing problems."
If you think that will solve the problem, write to MTA and say so.
I have an MTA figure on the cost of a stub terminal. James' proposal involves much more excavation and construction. Of course I don't have precise budgetary figures, but neither do you. I am expressing my opinion that James' plan is extremely expensive, and I have some jsutification for my opinion. You have given no justification at all (not that you need to) for your opinion that James' plan is farless expensive.
False statement. We both have very good data available to us. You choose not to use it appropriately.
There are a number of different ways South Ferry could be redone, as a stub terminal, enlarging the loop, etc. There are diffferent ways the construction could be attempted.
One of the ways to drive up costs is to do the work as unobstrusively as possible, do it only on weekends and at night (overtime, anyone?) and take every pain to keep things as normal as possible. This was necessary with the 63rd Street Connector, in order to keep trains running through the Queens Boulevard corridor without disruption. It resulted in a 7 year schedule and contributed to a $645 million price tag, though it was not the only reason for that expense.
Personally, here's what I would do: I would select a plan (and I am not going to rank them here), I would set up shuttle bus service, and I would build the new terminal (whatever the design) in open cut fashion (not even cut and cover unless that subsection of area cannot be isolated). There would be 18 months to two years of inconvenience and dirt flying, and the budget could be reduced. I'd reward the contractor the same way the contractor was rewarded for rebuilding the line after the 9-11 tragedy.
The Greenwich Street subway was rebuilt for slightly less than $100 million. Recreate the exclusivity of the work zone at South Ferry as much as possible, and MTA can achieve something similar (though not as impressive a savings, perhaps) at the new South Ferry terminal.
Bottom Line: If you have a bright, well-thought-out idea of what to do at South Ferry (don't just throw rocks at their plans- that's worthless), write to MTA and post the reply here. Your idea may indeed be better than theirs; You may be pleasantly surprised by what they send you, and I guarantee you'll learn something.
And if they adopt any of your suggestions, I will personally toast your success here on Subtalk.
And if the reconstruction is poorly designed, that service reduction on the 1 will become permanent.
I agree with you that S Ferry renovations should be low key. But supposedly part of the 1/9 reconstruction was placing crossovers south of Rector so that Rector could be a terminal.
I'm glad you posted that. If true, it means that South Ferry could be closed and renovated without worrying about trains entering.
Not acceptable to David Greenberger; acceptable to everyone else.
Someone finally solved the problem, and you want to undo it to solve a different problem that doesn't exist.
Extending the existing South Ferry platform 255 feet back and installing an elevator would be cheaper than a rebuild, easier to use than a rebuild, and less disruptive to service on the rest of the line than a rebuild. Why is the rebuild option even on the table?
To the contrary, I'm very familiar with it. It's part of the reason South Ferry needs attention.
"Extending the existing South Ferry platform 255 feet back and installing an elevator would be cheaper than a rebuild, easier to use than a rebuild, and less disruptive to service on the rest of the line than a rebuild."
What you've just described qualifies in my book as a rebuild. bAnd it sounds very satisfactory to me. If that can be done, great. If it can't, then other options need to be chosen.
Now get off your lazy butt and write to MTA. Would you like me to send you a 37 cent stamp, or can you handle that? :0)
Extending the existing platform and leaving the rest of the station alone is not a rebuild -- it's a small modification.
The inner loop can't be used as a station unless the rolling stock on the 5 is modified so that only the middle doors can be opened. Seeing as the rolling stock on the 5 is brand new, I don't see that happening.
Even if that were done, the 5 could only stop there off-peak. Most rush hour 5's go to Brooklyn. That would be an unusual service pattern.
It won't happen
That means that door can be adressed independently
therefore one door can be programed to open and close on command. That option is most likely not available to T/O at the current time. It should be just a matter of changing the business rules of door operations.
"-- they can't even be programmed to do what they're supposed to do"
Thats propabaly because MTA employees have not been completly trained on how to operate more advanced features in the software
When an end user use windows 2000 at work he or she only see's the features the system administrator wants them to see. There are features within windows that only the most skilled system admins know how to use.
You may be right. But then again, one would have thought that changing the announcements on a train would be performable by a trained customer (i.e., NYCT) representative, and wouldn't require a vendor modification.
Software isn't always as flexible as it ought to be. I wouldn't be sure of it.
Operationally, this might be possible, although one must bear in mind that throughput is reduced when switches need to clear depending on whether a 1/9 or a 5 train is coming through.
The larger problem, I think, is customer confusion. Once the maps were updated to show SF as a 5 train stop, people would enter SF station hoping to catch a 5 train, and at rush hours it wouldn't be there.
Now, there are places in the system where certain routes don't operate at all hours. But normally, any curtailment is during off-peak times. This would be the only place where a station would lose service during rush hour -- presumably the time when it would be most useful.
For these reasons, this idea is not practical.
Wrong. In fact the station does have a problem, and your reliance on raw numbers proves you don't understand it.
I do not object to keeping it a loop - I don't use the word "terminal" top mean only a stub terminal. But South Ferry needs ADA access and needs room for more train cars.
Your idea may work. Instead of lazily posting nonsense, write MTA a letter, and post the reply here.
The station has no elevator. Tourists, espcecially those with poor command of English, occasionally don't realize that they can't get out from the rear cars and end up at Rector St. I agree these are both less than ideal situations.
Are there any other problems? I'd be genuinely interested to know.
All I'm saying is that a solution to the South Ferry problem that (re)creates a reliability and crowding problem on the rest of the line is no solution.
Now write the letter. Do you need a postage stamp? How about paper for your printer?
:0)
Don't get me wrong though, I am not really for a total rebuild of SF. I think it can possibly decrease local service on the line. Although SF is not a full station, it does do it's job well at turning trains fast, faster than a poorly designed stub would do. I say extend the platform into the tunnel, leave the loop alone, and use all the money saved on some other project downtown.
So get off your rear end and write into MTA to ask them to change it.
The terminal needs work. If you have a better idea, tell 'em. Get your friends to sign a petition. Send it to elected officials.
There is a huge FERRY TERMINIAL on top of the station.
Yes, there may be more or less of a ferry terminial there right now - it is being reconstructed. But, I don't see DOT holding their project - which dates back to the Dinkins Administration - for a TA project now that it has built up a head of steam.
Oh, well. They'll have to do it another way.
If that did have to close for construction, I don't see any reason (although my knowledge of boats isn't great) that ferries couldn't use another Lower Manhattan ferry terminal (eg Pier 11, Pier A, North Cove).
If it didn't have to close, then Whitehall St is a perfectly good station!
Your knowledge of NYC transportation is superb for someone living 4000 miles away. However, SI Ferry boats are far bigger than all the other ferries. They probably can't use the other piers, and certainly can't unload the large numbers of people in a reaosnable time span.
Maybe they could rent rubber dinghies and SCUBA suits to passengers.
:0)
Not a conflict, just the major expense of building a new train loop on top of existing tracks and station. Nothing $1 billion couldn't cure.
What it would affect is any new underground connection between the fare control area of the Whitehall St. station and the new S.I. Ferry terminal, along with the interlockings, as I mentioned before. Better to just extend the platform another five car lengths at the rear of the current station.
Agreed. You'd still be stuck with maintaining the platform extenders and frequent replacement of the rails, but you'd solve 2/3 of the problem for 1/4 of the money.
speaking of 149th street...I always hated the screeching on the 5 going to and from manh. Recently it seems it has gotten a little better. I hardly notice the noise anymore. Is it just my hearing going or were some improvements made?
Remember that recurring weekend GO about a month ago that had no 2/5 service between 149-GC and E180 and sent the 3 to 137/Bway? One of the many work sites was the jughandle. I don't know if the work somehow quieted the screech, but it's possible.
Yeah. Stupid HVAC units.
But even aside from the HVAC units, the trains themselves make a racket. It sounds like they're much heavier than their predecessors. Are they?
Right. Thus my wanting to call them hummingbirds. I like the sound of the R-142A better, myself. The R-68 is another pretty noisy car (on the outside) too, a "screechy yeller" sorta sound.
I suppose they could have very inexpensively installed a water sprinkler, which would seriously help screeches.
The Vultures (R142/142A) screech differently than the R62 and the Redbirds, probably due to the fact that the wheels are different. It's not as much a high-pitched sound as the older cars, but it's loud nevertheless. I heard quite a din from 7056-7-8-9-0/7065-4-3-2-1 recently as it ground its way into Mott Avenue.
wayne
Just extend the existing platform 255 feet back and add an elevator.
"I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metoropolitan areas atlases. Suffice to say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and I have used all the letters, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routings, names of lines and route markers, leave your repsonses/questions here and I'll answer them as thoroughly as I can."
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
With construction on the Manhattan Bridge nearly complete, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority will soon announce its most substantial change in the subway map in nearly two decades, officials confirmed yesterday.
I'd like to point out this sentence from the article that will make Sea Beach Fred extremely happy.
The N line, which travels Broadway, will become the sea beach express, so-called because it will become an express as it runs through Brooklyn to Coney Island. It will replace the Q diamond in Manhattan.
Now, granted, we all know that this is the strawman that Mark W posted a week or so ago, but it looks like this is what is going to be discussed with the community boards in the coming months. I don't live in the 5 boroughs anymore, but if I get wind of where some of these meetings will be, I may try to attend some.
--Mark
About six months after it opens.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take you on with that bet, for lots of money. If the bridge were only going to last 6 months, the south side would be showing cracks already.
I can conceive that it won't last 50 years. I can't believe it would only last less than 6 months.
--Mark
Wait! Did I say six months? Sorry, I must be having a relapse of my Alzheimer's. I meant to say six weeks.
Wait! Did I say six months? Sorry, I must be having a relapse of my Alzheimer's. I meant to say six weeks.
Are you sure you didn't mean hours? ;-)
Are you sure you didn't mean hours?
Nanoseconds.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Peace,
ANDEE
This is a big difference. Now it's not just a leak to the press by an MTA person who wants his own personal favorite plan to get publicity.
If the Times says this, it means this is the plan the MTA currently endorses. It may still change if the screaming is loud enough and a reasonable alternate gets proposed, but it is the official proposal of the moment.
Note also the Times confirms the plan will be in effect in February.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope this is a blooper on the part of the Times.
They might be able to squeeze all three routes onto the local tracks, and it might make the Eighth Ave. line more attractive to people on the Upper West Side if the frequency was increased to more than that of the 1/9. But it would be a tough fit to get all three onto the local track during AM and PM rush, and Concourse riders will defintely stage a protest about losing express service to Midtown Manhattan (which could, depending on where some riders live and where they're going, actually push a few people to opt for the Jerome Ave. el instead. Putting more riders on the Lex is not exactly a smart gameplan on the MTA's part).
Bustini-bustini ... but YOU of all people believing the Times. Life is good. Heh.
If the changes go through as planned then the "D" will be the first line to operate (in regular scheduled service) over 3 different routes to get to Coney Island (Culver, Brighton, West End) during its history of service to Coney Island.
Now if we can just kick the N off of the Sea Beach later on, the D could then claim all 4 Brooklyn routes to Coney Island.
[Fred - put down that shoe-slipper]
wayne
If so, then the M is close. It had Sea Beach in 2001, it had Brighton before 1986, and it runs most of the way down the West End now. If only we could pull it down three more stops, we'd be there.
But since it still hasn't hit Coney Island (in service) via the West End it can't be counted because the criteria is service to Coney Island. We can give it half a point for the fact that it does cover almost all the West End line.
This plan is a very smart plan, so N trains have to cross over to the express track, its a 1 minute delay. A small price to pay for a faster overall ride!
1-Sea Beach Line-(N Route)
It will no longer stop at DeKalb Avenue when operating express especially during rush hours. The N Line has always skipped DeKalb Avenue when it operated express in the past peak hours. I would not be surprised if N Express services skips DeKalb period
The plan also called for the N to operate local late nights but did not specify the time. What about weekends?
The proposed W Line will most likely operate weekdays from approx 6AM to either 9 or 10PM. Does the N operate local all other times?
2-West End Line(D Route)
You are wrong that the proposed D Route will operate express along its whole route. It will still make all local stops between Stillwell Ave and 36th Street and thats at least 25 minuates. The revised D will still take about the same time to complete its trip. In addition will the new D skip DeKalb Ave. In the past the TA had West End Express service skip DeKalb.
3-Brighton Line(B and Q routes)
With the proposed B routing Brighton/6th Ave Express returns weekdays only similar to what operated between 1968 and 1986
What about evenings,nights and weekends when the B will not operate.
Does Brighton passengers make a two seat ride to go to 6th Avenue and if the proposed West End D does not stop at De Kalb then Brighton passengers have to change at Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street or 34th Street both are not easy transfers
Also do Brighton Line passengers perfer Broadway or 6th Avenue service.
4-4th Avenue Local(R Line)
This proposed service revision fails to address 24 hour local service between Queens and Manhattan
5-50% Reduction of service between Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn
Thank You
2 - Stillwell to 36 run time 26 minutes. West End will bypass DeKalb rush hours and middays
3 - Brighton passengers prefer B'way. But then again, so do passengers on all the other south Brooklyn BMT lines.
4 - E runs local at night between Queens and Manhattan. Might not be convenient transfers to B'way, but that's life. this has nothing to do with Bridge service.
5 - R service is to be increased under the plan. M is barely used during middays and B'way needs a second Express over the Bridge.
DAILY it will operate Express on B'way until the R shuts down. Weekends, it will operate Local on B'way, with the R, and continue to do so after the R shuts down.
Where did you get this idea?
Not a big issue. at all. The only issue is coming home from yankee games if the service ends at 9 Pm as the current Q diamond does
"Also do Brighton Line passengers perfer Broadway or 6th Avenue service."
Brighton riders prefer broadway. I whish they would run the broadway Q express in brooklyn during rush hour.
Except for those who work at rock center, broadway service offered better transfers and destinations and is quicker
More than Rock Center. Midtown Development is heaviest between 7th and Lex avs. The 6th av trains are the lines that best serve this area. I dont know if broadway will be more popular when the bridge opens. 6th av is a very important midtown line. However, Broadway's importance is somewhat raised with the develpoment of Times Sq. We'll see how it works out. I still think that 6th av is more in the thick of the buisiness district, while Broadway is a line that provides more service to tourist destinations.
I'd say on 40% of days it's more comfortable walking underground than above ground because of rain, snow, cold, or heat. On those days, a block can make a huge comfort difference. And even in nice weather, waiting to cross an avenue forces you to inhale a lot of exhaust fumes.
Also, using one line may allow you to make use of passageways. I can get to Port Authority Bus Terminal from the Broadway Ave line without going outdoors. From 6th Ave, it's 2 long blocks outdoors, or else I have to go back downstairs (and pay again unless I have an unlimited card). Similarly, I can get to the NY Public Library from 6th Ave with only a tiny outdoor walk, whereas it's a long outdoor walk from Broadway.
Moving all Brighton service off Broadway was a widely criticized error of the original plan. The TA has been trying to patch it ever since--this was the reason for the jerry-rigged addition of the original rush-hour only QB (successful) and the NX (unsuccessful).
Brighton reliability will also be improved by the shorter Q service.
This leaves the D-Concourse/West End as the only core 6th Avenue service. Much betetr.
Trivia note--this will also make the Sea Beach the only Coney Island routing that the D train has never covered as the regular service line. Opinion, Fred?
I already mentioned your trivia note:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=469170
Will Broadway as the core Brighton service be better? Considering the amount of people I see every morning having to switch at 34th St from the B & D to the Q I have my doubts. When the MB closed in 2001 it was even remarked in the newspapers about the sudden large influx of passengers using the trasnfer point. The TA even closed the front end stairwell for a while because of the overcrowding.
The B via Brighton will help but by how much?
We can specualte all we want but until 2004 comes along we won't know.
The nuisance for people who might want to go further uptown from the Brighton could be eased by having West End Ds stop at deKalb when the B isn't running.
I guess it's sort of a knock at the Brighton line (although it doesn't really matter) that they are not getting the D train back but rather the part time B.
Of course it affects people going to Yankee games living along the Brighton line as they no longer will have off peak hours the ability to take one train (the D train) to Yankee Stadium but apparently will have to change at Atlantic for the 4 or at 34th St for the D if the D is not stopping at DeKalb. Kind of not good news for what was once the pride of the BMT the Brighton line.
But then again I am not Sea Beach Fred and don't take it personally.
I guess it's sort of a knock at the Brighton line (although it doesn't really matter) that they are not getting the D train back but rather the part time B.
Of course it affects people going to Yankee games living along the Brighton line as they no longer will have off peak hours the ability to take one train (the D train) to Yankee Stadium but apparently will have to change at Atlantic for the 4 or at 34th St for the D if the D is not stopping at DeKalb. Kind of not good news for what was once the pride of the BMT the Brighton line.
But then again I am not Sea Beach Fred and don't take it personally.
At the time, they legitamately may not have thought that there was a need for four midtown services across the Manny B, but sending the QJ to Coney Island during regular hours Monday-Friday while leaving the QB as a peak-direction rush hour service was just nonsensical. It seemed as those just because they had created a connection from DeKalb (and Essex) to the IND they felt they had to make sure as many trains as possible ran via the IND, so the entire project could be justified. Throwing in all those other part time routes (NX, JJ, RJ) along with the QB and later the KK just served to confuse things more, even if it did produce the wonderful "LSD map" of 1967.
The new MTA plan is far more logical, and balances out the primary (Q, D) routes to Manhattan on the Brighton and Fourth Ave. lines, with the secondary routes (B, N) so that one of those also runs Brighton and the other runs Fourth Ave.
As for destinations, I'd say the Broadway line is better for off peak travel (Time Square) but the 6th Avenue line is better for offices. It puts you right at Rock Center, and teh V gets you to the most densely developed part of Midtown 42nd to 56th from 5th Avenue to 3rd.
One other advantage of the Q ending at 57th St. is that if the E or V or F is disrupted the Q can continue to Queens via 63d Street as an alternate service.
Just one other suggestion. Why not have four or five rush hour R/4th Ave. expresses that operate express north of 59th St. Brooklyn and go to 57th/7th Ave. via 4th Ave. express, Manny B, and Broadway Exp to 57th? Would help those Bay Ridge folks who now have to take a local all the way or change to a crowded express at 36th or Pacific.
One other advantage of the Q ending at 57th St. is that if the E or V or F is disrupted the Q can continue to Queens via 63d Street as an alternate service.
Just one other suggestion. Why not have four or five rush hour R/4th Ave. expresses that operate express north of 59th St. Brooklyn and go to 57th/7th Ave. via 4th Ave. express, Manny B, and Broadway Exp to 57th? Would help those Bay Ridge folks who now have to take a local all the way or change to a crowded express at 36th or Pacific.
Wouldn't people from Bay Ridge change at 59th for the N-Broadway?
Good question. It depends on how good the timing is, and how good the information is. Outbound, you might as well hop on an express and change later. Inbound, if an N just left you are better off staying on the R until at least 36th Street, rather than waiting 5-8 minutes. If you know an N is within three minutes, it's better to wait for it.
Hopefully they can rig something up in cases like these, even if by radio, because ATS for the B division is a long way off.
#3 West End Jeff
My idea is to meet at Times Square about 4:30 to 5 & take an Express out to Main Street. Personally I can be a Main Street at 3:30. That will ensure me of a local Railfan Window in to Times Square. We could ride back & forth until dark or agree on something else.
So, how about Friday April 12th ? or the 18th with a ERA meeting as our destination after the railfanning ?
For my fellow Long Islanders a M-7 ride to cap off the night might be included in the plans ?
I'm afraid the redbirds might be gone by 2013 :). Friday the 11th works for me. 18th, maybe.
Times Square about 4:15 to 4:30 ... we'll have to come up with a specific time & meeting palce at Times Square.
Imagine getting a train from Corona Yard to South Ferry: Flushing Line, 60th St Tunnel, 57/7, REVERSE, 63rd St Line, REVERSE and wrong rail, Rockefeller Center, REVERSE, CPW Line, Concourse Line, Concourse Yard, Jerome Line, Lex Line, South Ferry. Some deadheading!
Not fast, but it does save a couple of track switches...
I don't know if ridership was that much of a problem as mainting the equipment. In 1975 the modified R12s started to brake down a lot and we wound up walking to Bowling Green.
Any equipment running on the shuttle would have to be modified so that only the center doors open on the South Ferry inner loop station. Only at Bowling Green can all the doors open.
After 27 years of not running the service I can't see any rational to resurrect it. It is only a about a 5 minute walk from SF to BG.
Also if they did resurrect it they would have to run the #5 Bowling Green trains on the outer loop in order to send the back uptown. Now they can use the inner loop w/o a problem.
IINM, the BG-SF shuttle only ran when the 5 or 6 trains did not run to South Ferry. It wasn't the shuttle getting in the way which made the 5 and 6 use the outer loop - it was the only way they could platform!
You mean the platform is that short?! It can't even hold a 102-foot train? What was the IRT smoking when they built this station?
Trains were able to open only their middle doors at South Ferry inner loop because of the extreme curvature of the platform.
-- Ed Sachs
-- Ed Sachs
Service cut backs. It had nothing to do with the equipment. At the same time they were rebuilding Bowling Green which included a rebuilt Shuttle platform that was never used. When the Shuttle was discontinued the TA also eliminated #5 and #6 service between Bowling Green and South Ferry
At the same time the TA merged the EE Line with the N Line and discontinued the K Line between Eastern Parkway and 57th St/6th Ave.
Other cutbacks at the same time
AA Line-Midnight hour service replaced by A Local
B Line-Shuttle between Stillwell Ave and 36th St and between 47th/50th Streets and 57th St/6th Ave midnight hours
GG Line-Service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave replaced by F Line late nights(10:30PM to 6AM)
N Lime-Shuttle between Stillwell Ave and 36th Street midnight hours
Also the CC and E Line switched Rush hour terminals
Thank You
Oh, and they don't want a new stadium there, because that would take the Jets away from the Meadowlands (which gives me this image of McGreevey lobbying before the IOC next year to please put the Olympics anyplace but New York City so Chad Pennington can play his entire career west of the Hudson).
How this will affect the downtown transit plans if it really gets into the dogfight stage is unknown. But I think it does show that Bloomberg's other pet project -- the JFK rail link to lower Manhattan -- better not be counting on a chunk of Port Authority cash and/or assistance to become a reality, unless the city and state can figure out something of equal value to give New Jersey to make their polticialy leaders happy.
Considering what's been happening to air travel, trends which may not reverse themselves anytime soon, the JFK rail link plan sounds an awful lot like an answer to a question no one has asked.
The rail link did not make economic sense even before air travel tanked. The most optomistic projections would be a couple of thousand daily users between downtown and JFK.
Wait a minute... The politicians in Queens are opposed to the swap because it would "give 25% of Queens County to New Jersey" (exaggerated, to be sure, but still a valid point). However, if New Jersey opposes it, then it must really be a GOOD deal for the city, right?
Then again, instead of the airports, how about letting New Jersey take Staten Island? :-)
In this site, http://wt.mit.edu/Subway/Archives/Worth/Worth.html, the closing date is reported as 1964.
Anyone know?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Me being a suspicious railfan, I played about with various ways of using multiple tickets to achieve a cheaper fare. What I eventually worked out was that it was cheapest to buy three return tickets - B'ham-Derby (£7.35), Derby-Sheffield (£8.45), Sheffield-Leeds (£5.90). These add up to £21.70 - a saving of £2.55. (NB - I am riding exactly the same trains and still have a one seat ride!)
Put another way, Virgin Cross Country is reaping £2.55 (an extra 11¾%) from every rail user on that line who isn't both as suspicious and as knowledgeable as to where trains stop as me. Oh well, I suppose all these ignoramuses are subsidising my ride - something nice to think about on a two and a bit hour train journey each way!
People have tried doing that with air itineraries. For example, NYC-to-Chicago-via-Pittsburgh might be cheaper than NYC-to-Pittsburgh, so you'd buy the through ticket and not use the second leg. The airlines fought back by getting a law passed against that. (Yes, you can be arrested for NOT using a partial ticket.)
Not quite. There's no law against this so-called "hidden city" ticketing. What will happen, however, is that the airline will cancel the passenger's return trip once it catches on to the plan, and airline computers are quite adept at uncovering these plans.
Of course, more and more people are flying discount carriers, where it's not necessary to resort to anything like this in order to get a low fare.
There are plenty of rip-offs everywhere in the UK. Wivenhoe to Liverpool Street starting during the morning peak is something like 30 pounds return, but get a return ticket to Shenfield and another from Shenfield to London and the saving is over five pounds. The downside is that technically the train has to stop at Shenfield, so you lose the one seat ride for this saving.
Voters got the crazy notion that just because her husband was killed and her son was shot, Carolyn McCarthy would make an adequate legislator AND
legislation was passed giving police officers free transit on the LIRR.
(Forgetting Carolyn McCarthy for now) Fast forward nearly 10 years. Police are still riding for free but rarely, if ever, get inviolved in on-the-train altercations. I am not anti-police by any stretch of the imagination, however, yesterday, I witnessed a display of pure kutzpah on one LIRR train. Cop and a friend seated in a 5-seater in the 2nd car of a crowded train. Cop shows his ID card and conductor nods (even though the officer should have been standing). The conductor then gestures to the friend. The friend is caught off guard - not expecting the conductor to ask him for a ticket. The cop says something like, "He's with me." The conductor acknowledges the officer and then asks the other passenger for a ticket. The cop says, "I said he's with me!". One thing leads to another The C/R says he will not 'ride' the friend. The cop continues to protest. The conductor persisted and finally, they relented and paid the fare sans the $2.00 on-board surcharge.
I guess that had the governor not put State Troopers on the trains and had I not seen them 'get involved' on two occasions, already, this event might not have seemed so significant. Of course, I think the conductor was 100% correct. Any other thoughts?
[FDNY incident at another time]
I am retired now since Sept and only used the LIRR twice and both times the conductor's let me go free with my retired ID. I smile and say thank you and carry an extra ticket in my pocket just in case they charge me. I will not become argumentative.
When I was still on the job, 90% of the time let my wife and son go free. (my son would be free anyway because of his age) I always thanked them with a smile. If he charged my wife I wouldn't argue, and I'd pay and not be argumentative. I figure I'm ahead in the long run. As far as friends are concerned it never even dawned on me to try to have them go free.
By the way, although I always use my shield to get on the subway, I always bought my wife a metrocard or token. But lately I found out other cops have their families go through the gate with them.
Despite my general dislike of the LIRR, I've got to admit that the conductor was completely in the right. And needless to say, the cop should not have continued to complain after the conductor said that the friend couldn't ride for free. Come to think of it, if the cop was aware of the LIRR policy from the start, he shouldn't have said "He's with me" in the first place.
1) The conductor was right and this particular cop was an asshole, abusing the policy.
2) The conductor should have made a note of the cop's shield number and reported the incident to LIRR supervisors.
3) The cop deserved either a written reprimand, or letter of instruction (or other action) designed to inform him that the next time this happens, he could end up being his department's newest meter maid.
The policy is well-intentioned, Train Dude, but inevitably a few people will abuse it.
Nah, he collected the fare, so no need to turn it nasty. Sometimes it's better to be laid back!
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry, but you don't have to love a particular class of cars more than any other in order to be a die-hard buff. What you are describing is just someone who is old (which isn't a bad thing, I don't mean to put down people who have more of those orbital miles) or with a moderate-to-severe case of eruthornithophilia.
-- Ed Sachs
My two cents' worth would be drawing R-32 sign boxes on the covers of your schoolbooks and filling in the route and destination spaces with your name and subject. Not to mention drawing front bulkheads on test papers and filling in the grade you got in the route sign slot.
-- Ed Sachs
And I can remember being over 6 years old and ducking under the turnstiles when not riding with my parents. :-)
Tom
Of course it depends upon the person's size, but 6-10 it was better to go under, particularly with the large wooden turnstiles. It was much less likely to catch the eye of the person in the change booth if you approached with your hand out and appeared to put a coin in the slot and quickly ducked under. 10-14 was the awkward age when it was harder to duck under, but you needed vaulting practice to go over smoothly. 14+ it was a macho thing, you had to go over.
Tom
There was the yellow or pink "warning" tape that held open the service door entering into the Subway which blocked the two turnstiles which were next to it on the left. There was a worker in a construction vest outside talking with the booth clerk. A dark and eerie night as it was, we asked him dealing with the fare. The worker in the orange vest said "just walk right in". We resentfully went in (because I was obligated to pay the fare) but the impact of 9/11 was still at large. The reason why this happened is still unknown. BTW, the entrance at the other end of this station still had turnstiles operating and people paying the usual fare to enter the Subway system.
I tried not to enjoy the free ride, but 9/11 was a big enough thing to worry about.
I lived in L. A. from 1976 to 1998, and on a few occasions, the SCRTD fare was actually a little higher than the TA's fare, which I found amusing considering how much bigger the NY system was than LA's. Usually this was the case for a few months, then NY would "catch up".
(I don't even know what I just said!)
:-) Amdrew
As young as I am, one is die-hard when they will WAIT for an R-32 and let an R-46 train pass by on the Queens Line, or you will not ride a 75-foot car if you can avoid it. One is also a die-hard railfan if they want to railfan the MTA Railroads (so far, I have railfanned Babylon, Far Rockaway, Port Jefferson, and Long Beach branches (electrified portion of Pt. Jeff only), and the LIRR Main Line to Ronkonkoma, Metro-North Hudson to Croton-Harmon, and New Haven Line to Stamford. I haven't railfanned any NJT lines yet, but hope to do so soon.)
Yes, it implies that one slays vampires for a living.
Done a lot of that. Even managed to board at two now abandoned stations: North Newark and West 8th Street, in Bayonne. Hey, that means I got to detrain at the CRRNJ Elizabeth Station! Forgot about that. And used Rossville Avenue station too. That was a nice curved platform station.
New Jersey is good for cross line railfanning. Like taking a train out to, say, Bound Brook and walking north to take a Gladstone Branch train back in. I did it when those Erie-Lackawanna trains had open windows. Ahhhhh, on summer nights, there was nothing like it.
It's better than "foamer."
And just think, one day when the younger post-R62 delivery railfans of the board today are posting on subtalk off in the future, and they will be crying over the scrapping of the R142s.....hating the R865's on their arrival to replace them......there hopefully will be new young railfans there too wondering why they are getting so upset about the R142's being sunk, just like all of us are upset about the passing of the Redbirds.
CG
Here she comes!!!
There she goes!!!
Take Pride,
Brian
You'd LOVE "Lester Lines" ... it's a bus company that runs between Newburgh and New Paltz (though I think they finally went four paws to the moon, owwwoooO!) and the "fleet" consisted of ONE yellow school bus ($4.50 each way) with kindergarten seats that took about an hour to travel 6 miles ... "Hi. I'm LESTER ... RIDE my bus." (talk about your catchy slogans) ...
Capitol is the building in DC....or any other capital city.
That SRS 403 is one very historic piece of equipment. It is a Mack FCD Railbus, originally built for the New Haven Railroad.....
What the hell is an SRS 403, and what does it do?
Thanks :)
http://www.trainweb.org/elso/SPERRY.HTM
---Brian
Thanks for the link.
Other features: it takes power like a conventional gas-powered vehicle via a gas pedal, but brakes via straight-air brake valve, like a trolley car (and w/o a dead-man feature).
---Brian
Mind ya, I like subway cars and all (if nobody noticed) but the old Budd RDC's were pretty neat too and so absolutely vegetarian-unfriendly. No volts? NO PROBLEM. We go anyway. But given the specialty of electric traction and the REALITY that 99% of America's rails are unpowered, only made sense to me that would be the design.
And hey! Wait! YOU willing to give up your "Lucky Luciano handle?" Geez ... I'm impressed that you'd hand me down your PERSONAL heirloom. Or is it TRUE that hell just froze over? Moo.
The electric option is USUALLY more efficient than direct traction. And of course, the RDC's were the grandfather of the 32's as far as style went. When it comes to NON-subway cars, I always had a thing for RDC's ever since the first time I got to run one between Poughkeepsie and Croton North. Thanks to a buddy that I roomed with in New Paltz, I got more handle time on RDC's than on Arnines, though I hope to catch up THIS year. :)
Particularly amusing about RDC's was the "stick shift" controller. A zig-zag arrangement much like many muscle cars without having to push for the clutch (clutch was automatic based on controller gauntlet position) ... and the braking was VERY MUCH ME-23 (Arnine/LoV like) ... they were NICE toys, though a bit smelly.
Mind you, those were 6-71 engines, same as what was in all the GM diesel-powered city buses built until 1959!!!
The SPV-2000, newer version of the RDC, went to the 6V92 Detroit Diesel engine, as did city buses of its time.
Correct. And if you do see third rail shoes, it's usually in the winter, when scraper shoes are installed for cold weather duty; these scraper shoes do not power the locomotives.
--Mark
There's one at the Danbury Railway Museum... might be the one from Remington Arms, I'm not sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Indeed it is... see detailed informationhalfway down this page. From the information provided it would appear that two of the ten Mack railbuses have been scrapped, at least three survive, and five are "fate unknown".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_12995.jpg
---Brian
---Brian
Robert
---Brian
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Here is the company's website: http://www.sperryrail.com
---Brian
Anyway, I never knew the R16's were red at one time.
It's hard to believe that all the trains used to look like this....I remember it all too well.....
1 Broadway Local 9292
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Well this is a great shot from the Broadway platform on the Myrtle El. That neighborhood was about to fall big time. I remember passing that bank in the backround in the 80's and it looked like it was going to cave in. It looks so nice in the photo. They did fix it up in the early 90's and one of my professors in college was involved in making it some kind of cultural arts building or something.
Anyway, Broadway had some dark days ahead at the time of this photo. It only now is beginning to turn around, and is really remarkable how nice it is getting (well anything looks good next to what it was in the 80s!)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24385.jpg
---Brian
Yes, but perhaps the caption was done by someone who remembers when the tracks of the Franklin Shuttle were part of the Brighton Line.
Tom
If for no other reason than that there's never been a 48th St station anywhere in NYC. ;-) (Go on, someone, prove me wrong.)
If for no other reason than that there's never been a 48th St station anywhere in NYC. ;-) (Go on, someone, prove me wrong.)
See ya Saturday,
Mark
The alignment is pretty well known by now. The line would start at the 125th St. Metro North station. After running briefly east, it would turn south along 2nd Avenue and go to the Financial District, with Lower Manhattan stops at Houston St, Grand St, Chatham Square, Seaport, and Hanover Sq.
About half of the trains would peel off at 63rd St and run down the Broadway line, and over the Manhattan Bridge. In the accompanying diagrams, the route continuing along Broadway is labeled Q. The route continuing along 2nd Ave is labeled T.
Connections to other lines at 57th St, 42nd St, 14th St and Houston St are portrayed as "under evaluation."
The cross-platform transfer at Grand St (which was the original plan, years ago), has been abandoned. The two options being considered are to build a 2-level station at Grand St, with a vertical transfer to the B and D. Or, to construct the SAS along Forsyth St, with a 200 ft passageway connecting to the B and D.
Public hearings have been announced for May 13 and 14. The cost of the project is on the order of $12.8 billion.
---Brian
I interpret it differently. I think that when the "early work" was done, there was less concern about the temporary and permanent effects on the neighborhood. Look at the SDEIS and all of the environmental concerns that are addressed; do you think Robert Moses did any of that when he built the Cross-Bronx Expressway?
We simply live in an age when pros and cons of various construction options are weighed differently. Depending on your point of view, that's either an advantage (because it forces public works projects to be more environmentally sensitive) or a disadvantage (because it makes these projects take more time, and limits what can be done).
Also, this is in Community Board 3 territory. Dealing with that board is like dealing with a very determined pit bull. They will sink their teeth into you and not let go, ever.
One of many examples: from about 1960 until 1985 developers tried to get a zoning variance for a lot at the corner of 3rd Ave and 12th street. The community board fought and pressured until eventually NYU bought the land and built a dormitory that did not require a variance.
Interestingly enough, they have been trying to get a middle income housing project built for 40 years now in a parking lot on the corner of 2nd Ave and Chrystie St, over the B/D tracks. I think they are finally succeeding, because the lot just closed. I wonder if the SAS plan contemplates using that lot for staging materials.
1. Far more people exit at GCT than enter in the AM rush. Good news for any added burden that ESA might add.
2. Dwell times at GCT in the AM rush average 45-60 seconds. As a result, true capacity is only 25 tph.
3. Currently, there are 28 express trains in the peak hour at 125th St but only 25 at GCT and further south. Where do the rest go? They queue up.
Hopefully, the projections for increased congestion on the 4/5/6 will make an impact on Bloomberg and get him to realize how improtant this is for the economy of NYC.
You know I WILL be writing. If I am visiting the East Coast during the hearings (there is a chance) I WILL attend.
You should write and speak regardless of your opinion.
Already did write -- as a TA employee I shouldn't do more than that.
There should be a fiscal analysis, showing the enormous federal, state and local taxes paid by post-1950 buildings, their residents and businesses pay net of the cost of the services they receive. And the net federal, state and local taxes that would be paid by future buildings and their occupants, because no matter what anyone says, the East Side does have development capacity, just not transportation capacity.
It is these cash cows who are being jammed onto the Lexington Avenue line, and who will be disadvantaged further if East Side Access and not the Second Avenue goes ahead. I would refuse to believe that was an accident. After all, which went first and received the federal money?
I can imagine that much of the dwell time is that the platform is too crowded to allow people to exit the train quickly. Maybe installing escalators to move people off the platform quicker would reduce the dwell time a bit
That has nothing to do with it. The trains are packed, so if those exiting at Grand Central are not by the doors, they have to shove their way out. Meanwhile, you have as great a volume shoving its way on, both from MetroNorth and from the local train. If the station had been built to allow trains to be entered from one side and exited from the other, that would have helped, but it wasn't.
The Dept. of Subways has done things to reduce dwell time -- platform conductors, the new trains have offset doors, etc. It is coming up with modifications to try to get up the 30 train max, but even it it worked that would not even absorb the projected added riders from ESA.
In one of the earlier MTA studies, it was suggested that a fifth track would be added to the station, which would have allowed three downtown trains to be in the station at once, rather than two. Obviously this wouldn't have been a trivial project, but it received serious consideration before being rejected (rightfully so, IMO).
There is an appendix in the SDEIS that lists the alternatives that were considered. It makes fascinating reading. Another suggestion, although I don't think it received serious consideration, was upgrading the Lex to B Division standards.
One thought that I posted recently (and I'm sure others have had it as well) was to lengthen IRT platforms to 12 cars. That would get 90% of the benefit with a lot less money. Still a gigantic expense, of course.
No, about 70%-75% of the benefit (I'm not saying it wouldn't have an impact); you've consistently discounted the political impact of the Upper East Side. Your being tone-deaf to that is OK, on Subtalk, of course.
But your suggestion is worth looking at. Lengthening the platforms isn't enough. If a renovated Lex took the place of the SAS, you'd need:
a) Longer platforms, more entrances, larger mezzanines or redesigned fare control areas. Getting passengers on and off faster is critical.
b) Full ADA compliance at most stations (to compensate riders because SAS would be fully ADA-compliant).
c) Extensive tunnel renovation and improved signaling (CBTC?) to increase speeds, increase tph and reduce travel time.
d)I'd even seriously consider renovating additional stations in the Bronx to allow a true peak direction 4 express service (Lexington Av Express - Jerome Express, rush hours) as well as local service. The 4 is the only Lex branch line without a Bronx express option.
Now, add all that up in $$$ and tell me what you think that might cost.
What on earth am I being tone deaf to? Did I say this would be a full substitute for a SAS? I also doubt it can be done for a reasonable amount of money. GCT especially would be a killer expense. But this is Subtalk, not the MTA's planning organization.
And of course I meant it would provide 90% of the capacity of a B division line, not make up 90% of the difference between A division and B division capacity.
Clearly, any scheme that restricts passenger flow to only one direction will decrease loading/unloading time. It's the difference between laminar and turbulent flow.
An alternate method would be to reserve certain doors in the car for entry and others for exit. This was done in the LV's. Entry was via the vestibule doors at the end. Exit was via the center door. Moreover the vestibule doors lined up with railings and gates on the platform. A single platform conductor could control two doors simultaneously. Moreover, entering passengers would line up behind the gates because they offered protection from the platform edge.
The result was that when LV's ruled the Lex express, they carried more passengers with reduced dwell times and ran more tph. Then again, what did they know. :-)
Build subway cars that have doors along 50% of the cars length. Or more if you want to get creative. That would help people got on and off A LOT faster.
---Brian
Not many seats on such cars. Long ride standing from the Bronx.
On a car with 110 people in it, most of them are standing anyway.
Can you please repeat that so that the meaning is clear?
Huh? You'd have to be pretty damn creative. The doors have to *go* somewhere when they have slid open!
---Brian
Arti
If the doors were thinner or the car's walls thicker, the doors could clamshell (that may not be the right word, but I mean to slide on top of one another, like the roof of the Milwaukee Brewers' new stadium, Miller Park).
---Brian
This is contradicted by the data shown in Table 5B-2. It shows that the leave load levels for both the express and local are greater than those for arriving trains. This is a reversal of the pattern shown in Table 9D-9 of the DEIS.
If this pattern is indeed correct, then the assumption that the ESA should be built first becomes questionable.
2. Dwell times at GCT in the AM rush average 45-60 seconds. As a result, true capacity is only 25 tph.
Actually, it clearly shows that 30 tph operation is viable. The chokepoint for subway operation is at stations. The time a train occupies a station can be divided into 3 distinct segments: the time it takes the train to stop (braking); the time the trains remains motionless within the station (dwell) and the time it takes the train to leave the station (acceleration).
The average braking time for downtown expresses entering Grand Central is 31 seconds. The average acceleration time for downtown expresses leaving Grand Central is 38 seconds. This leaves an average of 51 seconds for dwell time within the station, with trains coming every 120 seconds.
Dwell time is proportional to headway. The Grand Central measurements were taken at 25 tph or 144 second headways. One would reasonably expect that a 60 second dwell time at this service level would translate to 60 x 120/144 = 50 seconds, if they ever ran 30 tph. This falls within the required dwell time, based on acceleration and braking times for the station.
There is great variablilty among train operators vis-a-vis braking and acceleration times. If operators were trained to be one standard deviation quicker on average, then an additional margin of 8 seconds would be gained.
3. Currently, there are 28 express trains in the peak hour at 125th St but only 25 at GCT and further south. Where do the rest go? They queue up.
The trains are already "queued" up when the reach 125th St. There is no attempt made to keep uniform headways to prevent them from becoming queued up. The tailway variability (leaving times) is greater than the headway variability (arriving times) at every station, all the way up into the Bronx. No effort is made to prevent trains from becoming queued up. One would find the same headway decrease in the Bronx. Only the Upper East Side has warranted study by the TA.
You assume the train behind can come right up behind the one in the station, or close to it. Actually, the train behind is kept some distance away, because the fixed-block signaling system assumes it is coming in at max speed, and signals are at danger far enough back for such a train to stop. T/Os coming up on a signal and danger slow to be sure to avoid tripping it. So trains are backing up a full block behind the train in the station. And a full block behind that. They want to try some modifications to get back up from 26 to 30, but that's pretty much as far as it goes.
And "average" dwell time doesn't matter. What matters is the LONGEST dwell time, which backs up the train behind that and the train behind that, making those trains slower, which increases dwell time, until the whole rush hour collapses.
I did not define what I meant by braking and acceleration time, although I've done this in previous posts.
Braking time is the interval from when a train hits the enters the rear of the station at FULL speed until the doors open. Acceleration time is the interval from when the train starts to move until the signal with only a red/yellow aspect (the one that controls access to the station) turns from red to yellow. This means that signals behind this one will turn green with the propogation speed of the signal system. Finally dwell time between when the doors open until the train starts to move.
With these definitions, all following trains will see only green aspects. The TA might not realize this because they have not tried to send trains down the track at 120 second intervals. :-)
And "average" dwell time doesn't matter. What matters is the LONGEST dwell time, which backs up the train behind that and the train behind that, making those trains slower, which increases dwell time, until the whole rush hour collapses.
Actually one usually uses average + 2 standard deviations to project a reliable schedule. At least that's what's recommended by the Transportation Research Board of the National Research Council in their report entitled "Rail Transit Capacity".
Interesting. So reliable is officially defined as 95% reliable then (presuming that trains, like Carbon-14 dates (how can you tell I'm an Archaeology student?), follow the normal distribution). That would still have one train in 20 outside the range of +/- 2 SDs, but it would be just as likely to be below that range as above, so it would be only one in 40 which would be statistically likely to be unreliably late.
When pigs fly, Hell freezes over, the Sun rises in the west and two plus two equals five.
It will; just look at the designs posted on the MTA website. The 63rd St line was built with bellmouths for future connection to the SAS, and the design shows that the connection will in fact be built (i.e., assuming the line itself is built).
However, there is currently no plan to use the connection in revenue service. When the 63rd St tunnel was built, there were also plans to build a "super express" service along Queens Blvd. Those plans were never realized. Queens Blvd is currently saturated, so new service onto 2nd Ave couldn't be added without reducing service along one of the other routes that currently use QB.
What to do?
East Side Access will help Queens, but in addition I think you need to reconfigure the LIE to include a two lane express busway, and provide it with direct connections to Queens' extensive boulevard system. Provide bus lanes with signal jumpers on some of those. The LIE busway would end with a direct entrance to a bus terminal in Long Island City, the way buses can go directly from the Lincoln Tunnel to the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
Then you branch off from the 63rd Street line directly into a single station right in that same bus terminal. Therefore, you can walk to a bus somewhere in Queens (or Nassau, for that matter), ride down an boulevard stopping at bus stops but not lights, and zip to this bus terminal. There, you would have a quick walk to a waiting empty train, which would travel through the 63rd Street tunnel (change for the 6th Avenue line at Roosevelt Island) and down Second Avenue.
Twelve fully loaded B division trains can move 17,280 people per hour in OK comfort -- remember the train ride would not be that long. That's perhaps 40,000 people in the AM rush period. An expressway lane used exclusively by buses could probably move than many, and then some. That would be a significant increase in capacity just by reallocating road space that's already there, extending a branch off a line for perhaps a mile, and building one train/bus station.
I see that they have left provisions for potential expansion south from Hanover Sq. to Brooklyn and north on 2nd Ave to the Bronx. Did they bother to consider the utility of extending the line west along 125th (or relatively nearby) to the west side with potential connections (heading westward) to the 3, 2, A/B/C/D, and 1/9 where appropriate? While I am sure that there will be many people who suggest that the bus is an easy way to commute cross island and do it daily, I am equally sure that there are people who freely take the subway, but hesitate to transfer to a bus. Given the lack of cross-island subway service as a whole, especially north of the park, wouldn;t this be the perfect time to supplement the line so to speak to do just that. While Bronx-originated 2 passengers could have just transfered to the 5, and then the Q/T at 125th, I think all Manhattan-originated 2 passengers, and 3/A/B/C/D/1/9 passengers would benefit.
I am not suggesting holding up construction of the whole project just for this. I would just hate to see an otherwise potentially feasible and worthwhile project forever pre-empted from fruition because certain steps, be they financial, construction, etc., were not taken today to preserve the opportunity later. For example, if the line were to cost $12B today, yet just $13B with the 125th extension, but $12B today and another say $3-4B to add on the 125th extension later. Or if certain construction were used to allow no possibility of extending past the 125th tail tracks. I know the numbers above are not true, but I hope you all get my point.
Thoughts?
I've often thought that a 125th St line would make an awful lot of sense, given the relative paucity of crosstown service. As the gentrification of Manhattan moves steadily northward, I wouldn't be surprised if this idea enters the frame at some point. On the other hand, I wouldn't count on it anytime in the next 20 years, as there are simply too many other big projects competing for the same $$$.
The terminal could be Riverbank State Park.
I'm not saying the MTA planners read SubTalk, even less that they follow its suggestions, but, who knows, maybe someone there figured a future 125th St. line at least should not be precluded.
The plan changed when the consultants were brought in. It could be a "great minds think alike" criteria. I could be cost -- the double curve would have been vastly more expensive, and I never say the point of it. Maybe they got the idea here, or maybe it was obvious.
I agree that it's probably a "great minds think alike" deal.
You have already noticed, though, that the plan includes an east-west station as one branch of a T tunnel arrangement - so the line can, in future, be extended both north and west.
Tail tracks can become a new line if further extension is desired.
So, where is this?
My prediction is business as usual: shuttles, by train and by bus.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now, what's the deal with maintenance work being done on the Broadway tracks north of Union Square in the middle of the PM rush hour??? Who's bright idea was that? Everything was backed up all the way to the Manny B!
Doesn't sound like regularly scheduled work to me. If nothing else, a fully opened Manny B should allow less disasterous consequences if a re-route is required.
Why was the Sea Beach built without any express stops between Coney and 59th Street, anyway? Did they anticipate a building boom down there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm sure the TA does not intend to revive the NX. They simply mean the Sea Beach will be express for its entire route. The "Sea Beach Express" always made all stops from 59 to Coney.
NX - Sea Beach Super Express: Stillwell, 59, 36, Pacific
N - Sea Beach Express: Stillwell, 86, Av U, King's H'way, Bay Pkwy, 20 Av, 18 Av, New Utrecht Av, Ft Hamilton Pkwy, 8 Av, 59, 36, Pacific
NN - Sea Beach Local (theoretical): Stillwell, 86, Av U, King's H'way, Bay Pkwy, 20 Av, 18 Av, New Utrecht Av, Ft Hamilton Pkwy, 8 Av, 59, 53, 45, 36, 25, Prospect Av, 9, Union, Pacific, De Kalb Av
The Daily News was therefore correct in stating that the N train would be express from Coney Island to Manhattan as it would not stop at 53, 45, 25, Prospect Av, 9, Union, or De Kalb Av - ie it is not a Local - but it would stop at 86, Av U, King's H'way, Bay Pkwy, 20 Av, 18 Av, New Utrecht Av, Ft Hamilton Pkwy, and 8 Av - ie it is only an Express, not a Super Express. It's why the trains were called N and NX, not NN and N.
A Sea Beach express is an express on the Sea Beach line itself.
Your terminology can't describe a hypothetical line that runs express on the Sea Beach line but local on 4th Avenue (a common routing for W's during GO's, though I can't imagine it would be very useful as a regular service). Mine can.
R8 Crane car
R13 Allocated to a track cleaning unit purchase
R18 Allocated to a pump and hose car purchase, never purchased
R19 Diesel loco for pump car, never purchased
R20 38 misc. service and MOW cars
R23 30 hopper cars for MOW
R24 Wheel truing machines (2)
R25 Wheel truing machine (1)
R31 Vacuum cleaning unit
R35 15 misc service and MOW cars
R37 4 diesel-electric locomotives
R41 6 diesel-electric locomotives
R43 3 diesel-electric locomotives
R45 2 crane cars
R47 8 diesel-electric locomotives
R48 1 Rail Derrick Car
R49 20 Flat Cars
R50 2 Supply Car (not purchased; included in R-74 Contract)
R51 18 Flat Cars
R52 12 Diesel-Electric Locomotives
R53 5 Crane Cars
R54 1-2 Supply Cars (not purchased)
R55 Passenger Cars (not purchased)
R56 1 Two-Car Rail Welding Unit
R57 1 Self-Propelled Crane
R58 27 Refuse Flat Cars
R59 1 Track Geometry Car
R60 1 Track Gang Car (Canceled)
R61 2 Diesel Crane Cars
R63 Not Rolling Stock contract (Car Sign Modernization)
R64 Door Operator Mechanism
R65 3 Pump Cars
R66 3 Tank Cars
R67 Fabricated trucks (four designs for R-84 to R-87 inclusive)
R69 Prototype of Air Conditioning for 8 "B" Division Cars (not purchased) (presumably the GE GOH R-32's)
R70 20 Ballast Cars (not purchased)
R71 20 Rider Cars, 3 Hose Cars, 6 Reach Cars, (conversion of cars from R-81 contract)
R72 24 Flat Cars (4 from R-82 Contract)
R73 3 Crane Cars
R74 2 Signal Supply Cars (from R-50 Contract)
R75 5 Diesel Locomotives (not purchased)
R76 Door modernization 900 cars (R-27, R-28, R-29, R-30, R-32)
R77 20 Diesel Locomotives
R77E 10 Electric Locomotives (5 from R-83Contract)
R78 1 Rail Grinding Car
R79 1 Self-Propelled Rail Changer
R80 18 Hopper Cars
R81 conversion of 10 Passenger Cars to Rider Cars (incorporated into R-71 contract)
R82 4 Flat Cars (incorporated into R-72 Contract)
R83 5 Electric Locomotives (incorporated into R-77E Contract)
R84 2 Prototype Trucks, 8 Production Trucks (production trucks canceled)
R85 2 Prototype Trucks, 8 Production Trucks (production trucks canceled)
R86 2 Prototype Trucks, 8 Production Trucks (production trucks canceled)
R87 2 Prototype Trucks, 8 Production Trucks (production trucks canceled)
R88 14 Rail Car Movers (1 purchased)
R89 1 Rail Grinding Car
R90 Pilot Overhauls, 4 cars
R91 Pilot Overhauls, 4 cars
R92 Pilot Overhauls, 4 cars
R93 Pilot Overhauls, 4 cars
R94 Used Flat Cars (Canceled)
R95 10 Revenue Collection Cars, 10 Locker Cars
R96 Overhaul 43 Flat Cars
R97 1 Vacuum Train Canceled
R98 Retrofit Traction Motors
R99 Overhaul 236 R-29 Passenger Cars
R100 2 Crane Cars (Not Purchased)
R101 30 Reconditioned Flat Cars
R102 9 Ten-ton Crane Cars (3 from R-119 Contract)
R103 3 Side Dump Cars
R104 Upgrade and Overhaul 13 Locomotives, Upgrade 22 Locomotives
R105 1 Ballast Distributor
R106 New Car Design: Future Cars (incorporated into R-110 Contract)
R107 New Car Design: Lightweight Trucks
R108 New Car Design: Propulsion Controls
R109 New Car Design: Auxiliary Systems
R110A New Tech. Test Train A Division - Design
R110B New Tech. Test Train B Division - Design
R111 Purchase 2 Cranes
R112 1 Dynamometer for Track Testing (Not Purchased)
R113 12 Three-Ton Crane Cars
R114 20 Flat Cars (Canceled)
R115 Develop and Test Prototype Air Conditioning Unit (Canceled)
R116 10 Hopper Cars (3 from R-118 Contract)
R117 10 Diesel-Electric Locomotives (Canceled) Design Stage for R120
R118 3 Hopper Cars (Incorporated into R-116 Contract)
R119 2 Ten-Ton Crane Cars (Incorporated into R-102 Contract)
R120 7 Diesel-Electric Locomotives
R121 Overhaul 22 Flat Cars and 2 Crane cars
R122 Overhaul 18 R51 Flat Cars
R123 Convert 16 passenger cars to 2 continuous welded rail train
R124 3 Tampers (Track and Structures purchases)
R125 1 Ballast Regulator (Track and Structures Purchases)
R126 Overhaul 20 Diesel Electric Locomotives (8 R47 & 12 R52)
R127 EP001-EP010 (Refuse train propulsion units) Bombardier
R128 Overhaul 2 continuous welded rail trains
R129 Overhead Cranes (for shop)
R132 Planning MW104111- replace Coney Island Yard Cranes
R133 Overhaul 27 R58 Refuse Flat Cars
R134 EP011-EP018 (Refuse train propulsion units) Bombardier
R135 Overhaul Four Diesel Locomotives
R136 Upgrade/Repair 2 Track Geometry Cars
R137 Vacuum Cleaning Train (for track maintenance)
R138 Overhaul 18 Hopper cars
R139 Overhaul 4 refuse flat cars
R140 Overhaul 1 rail grinding train
R141 Recondition 24 NYCT flat cars and 6 SIR flat cars
Whoops. So that's why there was no announcement when we were rerouted over the bridge.
Chuck Greene
R162 Furnish and Deliver Twelve 3-ton Crane Cars
R167 Upgrade and Modernize Existing NYC Transit Diesel Electric Locomotive
--Mark
Nice list, but IIRC wasn't there a R-39 for replacement cars for the
BUs, but never built?
8-) ~ Sparky
I meant for the Qs on the MJ.
8-) ~ Sparky
Then there was an R-39 "proposal", if nothing more for light weight
cars for the remaining "ELs". BTW, how's weather up your direction?
I scratched half my weekend to Maine, due to the projection of SNOW
and winter weather advisory. Enough already.
8-) ~ Sparky
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, that record didn't last very long, did it?
"2nd thoughts
on S. Ferry
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is rethinking the planned redesign of the South Ferry subway station amid concerns that the construction will tear up part of Battery Park, sources said yesterday.
The plans to revamp the station, which serves the 1 and 9 trains, would tap into the $4.5 billion in federal funds earmarked after the terror attacks to improve transit downtown.
The original plan for South Ferry would have involved tearing up a swath of Battery Park and dozens of trees on its eastern side.
The MTA is now considering several options — including one that would "minimalize" the effect on the park, sources said. Planners want to extend the subway platform so that all 10 cars can pull into the station instead of just the first five.
An MTA spokesman could not be reached for comment.
Meanwhile, rebuilding officials exploring a one-seat ride from lower Manhattan to Kennedy Airport are looking at a plan to create a "hybrid" subway car that could use existing rail lines and the light-rail AirTrain tracks connecting the airport to Jamaica Station, sources said.
Pete Donohue and Maggie Haberman"
While this may appear to be a tribute to the Stars and Stripes, we will actually look at flagging rules in today’s lesson. I have touched briefly upon flagging rules in the past. In this particular little workshop we will probe deeper into the subject.
In many railroad rulebooks for many years, flagging rules have been known as rule 99. On a few others it has been given a different number 130, as it is designated in the NORAC book. Some of the methods may vary slightly as well and we’ll look at those, but in any event the overall requirements of this rule are the same. The use of torpedoes, fusees and in the case of flagging in daylight, a red flag are all essential components of the flagging equation.
Once upon a time, it was essential in railroading to be extremely well versed on all aspects of Rule 99. Flagging was very important, especially with the operation of trains in non-signaled territory through the use of timetable schedules and train orders. Your train required an absolute form of protection when moving slowly or stopped. No other duties were to be allowed to interfere with providing flag protection to your train. Flagging was also routinely used in other aspects of train movements to protect against other trains.
In today’s world virtually all railroads have eliminated cabooses from trains. This has resulted in some modifications to the requirements of flagging rules, which has resulted in somewhat of a change in their significance. Flagging rules been eliminated by at least one road. CNIC has dropped all flagging rules from their US operations rulebook. The use of track warrants and automatic block signals take the place of the requirements for flagging, so CN management has determined flagging requirements under the traditional scope are no longer necessary. Some railroads have opted to keep them but suspend such rules by use of a track warrant when necessary. Other roads use absolute blocks or direct traffic control rules to protect trains thus relieving crews from having to provide flag protection. We will delve into this in a bit. On many roads though, flagging rules are still in effect and used as required. We will examine these rules past and present.
One of the reason flagging rules may be suspended in today’s railroad scene is the fact there are only two crew members on most trains. It would be difficult for a crew to provide flag protection when there are hardly any of them on the train to protect it and perform the other duties. Also, in this era of cabooseless trains, in addition to walking back the prescribed distance, the employee providing the flag protection would also have to walk the entire length of the train as well. After walking seven or eight thousand feet of train (or more) then having to walk the prescribed distance in compliance with the rules would take forever to accomplish. And by then, a following train could have already plowed into the back of your now stopped train before the Flagman could even get back to the tail end yet alone the required flagging distance.
Under the rules, in non-signaled territory, if a train cannot sustain at least half the normal maximum speed, or may be operating under circumstances where it could be overtaken by a following train, flag protection must be afforded. For example, if normal timetable speed is 40 MPH and the train cannot sustain at least 20 MPH, flag protection must be afforded. To protect a moving train, lighted fusees (pronounced Few-ZEES) are dropped from the caboose of such a moving train. They are dropped off along the right of way at intervals that do not exceed the burning time of the fusee. Most railroads use ten minute fusees, so this means a lighted fusee must be dropped of at least once every ten minutes until the train reaches more than one half of track speed.
Good judgement and common sense are required for dropping off or placing lighted fusees. You certainly don’t want to drop them on a road crossing or a bridge for obvious reasons. You also want to take grade and curvature into consideration as well.
In the case of an unattended fusee, with this being the one tossed off by the Flagman of the slowly moving train, a following train that encounters the unattended fusee must bring their train to a stop consistent with good train handling techniques. This means don’t put the train into emergency to get stopped but stop it quickly and safely using service braking. Now if the following train were already operating at restricted speed, they would have to stop before passing the unattended fusee as this is a stop signal they should be on the lookout for.
Rules have varied over the years and from railroad to railroad. In the case of an unattended fusee encountered, there have been several different philosophies invoked. Once stopped, the crew is required to both wait until that fusee burns out and then proceed at restricted speed, or simply come to a stop and then proceed at restricted speed for one mile or two miles. CSX requires that you do not have to stop but immediately reduce to restricted speed for fifteen minutes. In any event, you are looking out for all that bad stuff including another unattended fusee or perhaps even the Flagman of that train ahead that might be flagging you to a stop.
If encountering nothing requiring that you must stop while proceeding that prescribed distance or time, you may then proceed at normal speed.
If you were in a situation where you had stopped and needed to afford flag protection there was (and continues to be) a specific procedure for doing that as well. In the days before radios, the Engineer would sound a whistle signal to instruct the Flagman to get off the train and provide flag protection under the rules. The sounding of one long and three short blasts of the whistle was used to protect the rear of the train and three shorts and one long to protect the front of the train. The Conductor and Flagman on the caboose had to be attentive for the sound of this whistle signal. Even in the absence of the whistle signals, the crew had to be attentive and mindful of the situation and take the necessary measures to protect their train.
Flag protection for stopped trains worked as follows. Upon hearing the whistle signal, receiving instructions on the radio or under any other circumstance that requiring flag protection, the Flagman would gather up his flagging kit and embark upon his journey.
The flagging kit is comprised of a metal container with a strap to carry over your shoulder. This container carries a supply of fusees, a compartment to hold a supply of torpedoes and a red flag.
As I mentioned in the restricted speed piece, torpedoes are metal packets containing gunpowder. There are two soft metal straps that resemble large twist ties coming off this packet and used for strapping the torpedo onto the rail. When the torpedoes are run over by a train or railcar, they explode making a boom sound about the same volume as a silver salute type of firecracker.
The Flagman will walk back the distance as prescribed in the timetable and place two more torpedoes and light a fusee. Flagging distances are determined by such factors as track speed, terrain and grade. Most railroads used a chart based upon speed as their basic guide but could modify this on a particular portion of track in the special instructions of the timetable. On some railroads the scale worked like this;
0 to 10 MPH, one-quarter mile.
11 to 20 MPH, one-half mile.
21 to 30 MPH, three quarters of a mile.
31 to 40 MPH, one mile.
41 to 50 MPH, one and one-quarter miles.
51 to 60 MPH, one and one-half miles.
61 to 70 MPH, one and three-quarter miles.
71 to 80 MPH, two miles.
81 to 90 MPH, two and one-quarter miles.
In the NORAC book the table is slightly different.
20 MPH or less, on-quarter mile.
Between 21 and 30 MPH, one-half mile.
Between 31 and 40 MPH, one mile.
Between 41 and 90 MPH, one and one-half miles.
91 MPH or greater, two miles.
The old Grand Trunk Western rule 99 used measurements in yards based upon range of vision and, curvature and grade. In daytime with no down or descending grade toward the train within one mile of its rear and a clear view for 2000 yards from an approaching train, a flagging distance of at least 1000 yards was required. In other places and times at least 1500 yards was required.
If there was a downward grade towards their trains within one mile of its rear, 2000 yards was required.
And of course, the always popular extra precautions had to be taken as conditions warranted.
In my initial MoPac days flagging distances were prescribed by speeds above and below 35 MPH; one mile where maximum speed was under 35 and below, two miles for speeds in excess of 35 MPH. And once again, the timetable might modify these distances. On the station page of the timetable would be a notation of flagging distance, usually in feet or mileage. It might say "Flagging distance 2500 feet" or perhaps "Flagging distance two miles." Normal timetable speed, terrain and other factors are taken into consideration when prescribing the actual distance required for flagging distances.
Today CSX uses the same scale as the MoPac used to use; 35 MPH and above requires two miles and below 35 MPH one mile.
In all of the above examples these scales were minimum flagging distances. Again, common sense and the timetable might prescribe a greater distance. So with all of this required information burned into his memory, off goes the Flagman walking the prescribed distance. Upon his arrival at the required distance, the Flagman places two torpedoes one hundred to one hundred fifty feet apart on the rail, lights a fusee placing it along side the rail and then proceeds back half the distance to the end of the train and waits. The Flagman is required to wait at this spot until recalled to the train, they flag a following train to a stop or until relieved. To be recalled, either a whistle signal or a call on the radio instructing him to return will be given.
Should it be flagging a following train to a stop, upon doing so, the Flagman will then board this train and inform the crew of what is happening. The Engineer of this train may, upon permission of this Flagman, proceed at restricted speed to close up behind the stopped train. The Flagman may then return to his caboose and the flagman on board following train would then have to drop off to begin to protect his own train now.
In the event of being relieved, the Flagman would be replaced. This might be the result of the crew expiring on the hours of service. The Flagman, even though expired on the hours of service still may not leave his post until somebody relieves him. Even though dead on the hours of service, protection of his train still takes priority. His relief could be in the form of train order issued by the Train Dispatcher. The Dispatcher then assumes the responsibility and may hold all following trains at a specified location short of the stopped train until it starts moving again when recrewed. The order issued might inform all trains to "Wait at (location)." Once the stopped train begins to move again, the Dispatcher would then issue orders to all the trains being held behind the stopped train permission to pass such point from where they were being held. Or the relief could be in another Flagman coming out to take over the responsibilities.
In Canada before the era of cabooseless operation, there were a few additional steps in flagging rules. The Flagman was required to place torpedoes right behind the caboose first, and on both rails as opposed to just one. They were also required to walk back the prescribed distance and follow the rules like their counterparts in the United States but also placing torpedoes on both rails at the required flagging distance instead of just one rail.
When the explosion of one or two torpedoes is heard, the Engineer on the train exploding them would acknowledge this fact with two blasts of the whistle and then immediately reduce his train to restricted speed. Even if only one torpedo explosion occurs and is heard, the train must still be reduced to restricted speed with the crew keeping a vigilant lookout for a stop signal be it red flag, burning fusee or flagman giving a stop sign.
The radio was never to be used to circumvent flagging rules. One could never assume who was behind them. In the days before the ninety-seven channel radios, foreign line trains (usually trackage rights trains of another railroad operating over the line of the host railroad) were not likely to have the host railroad radio channel. This meant such trackage right trains would not hear any call from a stopped train ahead of them over the radio. So you needed to provide the proper flag protection as required.
Whenever a Flagman was recalled to their train, they were to light a fusee and leave it at the location where they had positioned themselves waiting to flag a following train to a stop. As they proceeded back to the caboose, they had to be mindful of the potential for following trains just the same. They also had to light and drop fusees not to exceed the burning time of the fusees as they headed back to their train. Even though they were heading back to the caboose, they still had to provide protection. And the torpedoes they placed on the rails were left in place.
Once you boarded the train and it began to move again, the Flagman was required to light and place a fusee on the ground immediately behind the caboose. And until the train reached at least one half of normal speed, they were to light and drop fusees along the way not to exceed the burning time of the fusees.
Now in the event a Flagman was in the process of heading back to protect his train and determined there was a following movement approaching before he could set the torpedoes and get into position, they were required to immediately place the torpedoes on the rail, then light a fusee and continue towards the approaching train giving them stop signals. Of course good judgment had to be used and you were not to head towards the approaching train while standing within the gauge of the rail (in between the rails).
Flag protection was also required in the event of a train overrunning a location where they were supposed to stop. If a train order only gave a train rights to Able and they went beyond Able, even if only by a short distance before stopping, flag protection had to immediately be provided ahead of their train against a possible opposing movement approaching them from the opposite direction. This requirement was for all territory, not just non-signaled. Also, flag protection would be required under other circumstances as necessary, especially against first class trains operating on timetable schedules.
In the days of dispatching and operating trains by timetable schedules and train orders, particularly in non-signaled territory, flagging rules as prescribed by Rule 99 were not only the requirement, they could also be a lifesaver. They were the last line of defense in accident prevention. There are other types of non-signaled track aside from those with none at all. This would include the opposite direction of track signaled for a current of traffic. Should you have double track railroad with one track designated as the eastbound and the other as the westbound, this meant each track was assigned operation for one direction only and were normally equipped with a block signal system for that particular direction.
Now even though it was assigned one direction, trains could and often were operated against the current of traffic. Sort of like running the wrong way on a one way street, only there were rules in effect to permit such operation. If a train was authorized to operate against the current of traffic, this meant operation without the protection of block signals to the rear of their train. Should this train either stop or be unable to maintain at least one half of normal speed, flag protection would be required.
Trains could be and sometimes are relieved by a train order or track warrant of the requirements of flagging. A train order would be issued that might read "Not required to protect against following trains." Or perhaps they might be relieved from having to protect against only some trains. They might have an order that read "Not required to protect against extra trains." In some situations trains would be relieved from flagging for specific time periods. Their relief order might read "Not required to protect against all trains from 600 am until 1001am." There were other methods of modifying flagging rules as well in through the use of train orders as well, but we won’t go through all of them here.
In today’s world with track warrant control replacing train orders on numerous railroads, there is a line on the track warrant for to provide for relief from flagging. This line when instructed to be checked by the issuing Dispatcher would read "Protection as required by Rule 99 is not required." Like the train order, this meant the crew on the train would not have to provide flag protection as prescribed by the rules. In such circumstances, the Dispatcher would be required to hold any following movements until the train ahead reported clear of a specific point first.
There is also another method to provide flag protection relief on a track warrant. This method would allow two or more trains to occupy overlapping limits in non-signaled territory without requiring flag protection. A line on the track warrant will be issued to all trains or movements authorized within such limits that reads "Between (location) and (location) make all movements at restricted speed. Limits occupied by train." Under this authorization, all trains involved had to be prepared to stop short of another train that could be working within these limits. Once again, that restricted speed issue surfaces. Everybody governed by these instructions has to be on the lookout for other movements at all times within the limits designated on the track warrant.
Automatic block signal systems normally overrode the requirements of rule 99. If you have two block signals, a block and an interlocking signal or a block and distant signal to the rear, you are not required to afford flag protection. In direct traffic control (DTC) territory that is non-signaled, you are issued an absolute block in which you are the only train authorized to be in any part of the limits of that block.
As you can see, flagging rules are absolute and essential. Employees had to be well versed in their meaning and application. Failure to do so could result in disaster.
Back in 1986 I met a retired Conductor from the New York Central Railroad. He told me of a story that took place during the Second World War when the Central, like most railroads of that era, was operating numerous troop trains which were transporting military troops en route to ports of demarcation destined for service in the various war theatres abroad.
He told of traveling at less than half of the normal track speed. He had positioned himself at the tail end of the last car of the train with a case of fusees. About every ten minutes he lighted and dropped off a fusee. After this went on for some time, a well-dressed man came up to him identifying himself as a member of the accounting department of the Central. He observed the Flagman lighting and dropping off the fusees. After several more had been lighted and dropped, the suit questioned why this Flagman was "Wasting company assets by throwing these things off the train."
The Flagman pointed behind their train and asked him to observe the glow of the light on the horizon behind them. When the suit acknowledged this glow in the night sky the Flagman explained to him that was another train following theirs. He went on to explain to this suit the reason he was "wasting the company’s valuable assets" was to keep that train from catching up to and plowing into them likely resulting in a horrible wreck with tragic and fatal results. He suggested to the suit that should something like this happen, he would be spending all of his time calculating how much money a disaster like this would wind up costing the company.
He said the suit commended him for making sure everything was being kept safe and walked back into the train, not to be seen by that Flagman again. Proof that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Support our troops.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Is it around 120th St NB and around 130th St. SB? Thanks.
Also, is there anyting interesting about the structure or station worth seeing?? I am planning on visiting this station when I visit NYC in August.
Last year I stayed in Queens and rode the 7 daily. I really enjoyed the unique concerte structure in the middle of Queens boulevard around 40th St. where I started most of my trips. It was very interesting in contrast to the Steel structure at Willets Point-She Stadium like I'm used to here in Chicago. The Doubl-Decker structure at Queens Boro Plaza is really awesome. The only complaint I had was that the conductors needed to do a better job of identifying trains as local or express before departing Queens-Boro Plaza outbound (Towards Main St.) Some did good, but most were too quiet or didn't say anything. But then one time many people on the platform and train started yelling "local or Express" until the conductor identified the train as a local. I found out quickly that the signs on the side of the train don't do much help identifying the 7 as a local or express. Half of the train says 7 express and half 7 local. OVerall it was alot of fun though and one of those things that you can say "only in New York". One of the many reason I love NYC.
No. The same line emerges from underground at Dyckman (200th) Street and continues for about a mile north in Manhattan as an el, and then for about another mile in the Bronx elevated to 242nd St.-Van Cortlandt Park.
Also, if you had been around 65 years ago, the Queensboro Plaza station would have been even more awsome, since it was twice the size of the current complex (width, not height) and had trains running to Manhattan across the Queensboro Bridge and down the Second Ave. el, as well as through the Steinway and 60th Street tunnels.
Anyway, back to the present, I believe once the R62A's become the dominant rolling stock on the 7, it'll be easier to identify trains with their larger rollsigns....given, of course the T/O's/C/R's change the rollsigns when necessary.
Why is that? If the signs are set wrong, the signs are set wrong.
The signs are often set wrong because a train on the 7 can change its identity on the spur of a moment. What was supposed to be a local becomes an express. What was supposed to be an express becomes a local.
I though I knew the (&) line! Where *is* the spur of the moment. Is it in Queens, or is it in Manhattan.
Bored Troublemakers want to know~!
I guess the problem can be blamed on the laziness on the staff. That's all I can deduct, or the fact that it doesn't matter. I've ridden the 7 and I have a knack for knowing if a train is local or express.
Me too, at least by the time we get to Woodside (in either direction). :-)
Tom
I understand that the train can change from local to express or vice versa at the last minute, but you would like to think that either the whole train would show the same designation, right or wrong.
Why freak? Both local and express stop there, with a whopping six minute time difference between the two. If you pass up a local to wait for the next express, you'll typically save a whole three minutes, but have far less breathing room.
Out of towners freaking over getting to MoMA Qns is understandable.
I understand that the train can change from local to express or vice versa at the last minute, but you would like to think that either the whole train would show the same designation, right or wrong.
Provided the crew has time to change all the signs. Typically, only the signs in the lead car and conductor's car(s) are updated.
I very nice line, htat I have not ridden on since I lived on 102nd Street
Elias
Elias
Yup... That *is* what I was looking for. What is Smith-9th... 60+ feet above sea level?
What is Washington Heights?
I have seen railroad maps that mark elevations (kinda important out here... to determine where extra locomotives are needed and such), is there such a critter for the subway system.
Thanks
Elias
http://americasroof.com/nyc-manhattan.shtml
According to www.topozone.com, the GWB Bus terminal is about 200' above sea level. IIRC the A train is not particularly deep there.
Further north, the terrain gets even higher, but the A is very deep relative to surface level of the hilltop. By Dyckman St, the terrain is low and the A is still underground.
So my guess is that the A at 175th is at least 160' above sea level. Somebody who travels that way could count steps from the bus station down to the platform.
To answer another poster: this particular struture is unique among all NYC elevated routes. If you ride the #1, get off at 125th Street and stand on the platform for a while. You will be about five stories high - much higher than the normal three story height of NYC els. That's because this route, which is part of the original 1904 IRT Contract One line, was elevated for one station because of the hilly topography in the area. Go down to street level and you will understand better. At 122nd Street Broadway is at the top of a hill called Morningside Heights, near Columbia University. North of 122nd Street the ground slopes steeply downward into a valley, the bottom of which is 125th Street. North of 125th, the ground slopes up steeply to 135th Street and a neighborhood called Hamilton Heights. The subway could not be tunnelled because the grades would have been way too steep. Instead, it continued on a level route which necessitated building an el with one station. Look at the station itself from the street. A large arch bridge actually supports the station as its straddles 125th Street, a unique engineering achievement that is largely forgotten today, 99 years after it was built.
You will also note that West 125th Street does not follow the normal street grid, but instead goes at an angle SE to NW. That's because the valley was created by an old earthquake fault centuries ago, and 125th Street follows the bottom of the valley. When the 1904 subway was built this west part of 125th was called Manhattan Street - name was changed later. One more fact - the old name for this valley is Manhattanville.
Erythos = Red (Ancient Greek: the “y” is a better transliteration of the greek upsilon (u)–cf Erythromycin, a red antibiotic)
Ornithos = Bird
Philia = Friendship
Need I say more!?
Ferrum and equus are Latin words. Logia is a Greek word. Your word "Ferroequinology" is therefore a bastard.
Before you ask, the Greek for ferrum is sideros and the Greek for equus is hippos. You might have meant "Siderohippology".
Incidentally the most frequently used bastard word is "television" from the Greek "tele" far and the Latin "visio" seeing. Better alternatives would be the wholly Greek "telehorasis" or "telehorama" or the totally Latin "proculvision".
I think I'll go and watch the PV - or is that the TH?
The study of R-68s!
Back when I ran that chat room, I called it the premier chat room for siderodromopholiacs.
LMAO!
I called it the premier chat room for siderodromopholiacs.
I hope you meant siderodromophiliacs! Pholeo means something very different from phileo!
Ferro = Iron
equin (short for equine) = horse
ology = the study of
Therefore it means the study of the Iron Horse.
I kvetch - therefroe I am!!
Eclinator
Necrocrat
Panophobe*
and now Erythrornithophilia
*I'm sure somebody else invented this first, but I never saw it before.
Well, first, I think it will be a major shock and confusion for most brighton and west end straphangers. It will changes the whole Brighton and West End line histories since decade. On other hand, I was amazed by the change through TA's consideration. I wasn't trill about the flip-flop ideas at the beginning, but I guess I shall give an chance and see what this flip-flop change will bring.
At least one conductor DOES expect everything to go back exactly as it was - she still announces transfers to "the Q train running on the D line and the W train running on the B line."
The 'real' information has not yet reached all of the (operational) managers in the field. It's being passed by word of mouth so far. Any info I have has come via public media or from my counterparts in RTO.
From an operational standpoint, though, the swap is not a bad thing. First, the West End line will (as I understand it) become a full-time line. The shuttle to 36th St. will be a thing of the past. Late night West End riders will be better served.
On the otherhand, the 'D' line will have some new challanges, not all related to the swap. Prior to the bridge closing, the D line was supported by 284 - 300 R-68 cars. The West End line, being a 'slower' line will likely require more trains to maintain the same level of service on the Concourse 'D'. Add to that the supplimental schedule proposed for the 'D' line due to the signal replacement to begin later this year and you'll find that the D line may require 320 - 324 cars. This may result in R-32s back at Coney Island or even the possibility of running them on the Eastern Lines.
CI will need more cars anyway. The B/D will require more R68's than these 2 lines needed in 2001 given the increased headways the full bridge will allow and the TA is commited to exploiting. That means a number of CI r68's headed to your neighborhood. The N & Q will also need more cars for the same reason the B/D does. Then to replace the extra cars the B/D will need. If all R143's are in revenue service by the time the new service pattern is implimented, will enough ENY R40/42's be available for x-fer to CI to compensate?
You are partially mistaken. At any instant when there is a train on one side of the bridge but not at the corresponding place on the other side, there are major twisting stresses.
It doesn't help to have the same amount of service on both sides on average (even over the course of an hour), unless you can match the trains instant for instant. And of course, that's impossible given the random things that happen with trains.
I suppose that's conceivable, especially with the bridge before reconstruction, though I'd find it surprising. Do you have a source for that information?
The MTA wants to send 3 trains over the bridge on weekends, 2 to Broadway and 1 to 6th Ave. But on weekdays they want to send 2 to Broadway and 2 to 6th Ave. They don't want to send a 4th service up CPW on the weekends, and Queensbridge is no longer available as a destination.
So, something has to change from any previous plan that has ever been in effect. One possibility would be to keep the D on the Brighton, and have the West End be an orange B on weekdays and a yellow B on weekends. Another possibility is the B/D flip-flop. A third is to totally screw the Sea Beach riders by having 2 Brighton bridge services on the weekend, one West End, and no Sea Beach.
The MTA in its wisdom, or lack thereof (depending on yuor opinion), has chosen the first option.
My B/N swap would not have 2 Brighton services. The Sea Beach B wouldn't run past Pacific St on weekends, but the N would (over the bridge, but local in Manhattan). The Q (express via Brighton) would keep it's familiar weekday only pattern.
Yes, I missed that one. However, that doesn't help the Yankee fans on the Brighton line and may therefore be considered radical by some who post here.
Well, this is a flip-flop too--it's just doing it in another way.
Like it or not, the bias is that, wherever possible, the traditional routes in Manhattan are maintained, and any changes are in the outer boroughs. With Manhattan being the core of the system, this seems appropriate.
A frend from the ta told me yesterday that there are 4 slant 40s trains in Ci that are getting striped for parts/scrap can anyone confirm that ????
thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
A frend from the ta told me yesterday that there are 4 slant 40s trains in Ci that are getting striped for parts/scrap can anyone confirm that ????
thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
You are assuming things that are simply not so. While the D will, indeed, need more R-68s than it did prior to the AB tracks closure, the B will not. The B will be 100% R-40 Slants.
Maybe there will be some minor confusion the first week but after that no way.
Remember people said the same thing when the north side closed and the Brighton got 2 Q trains.
Maybe there will be some minor confusion the first week but after that no way.
Remember people said the same thing when the north side closed and the Brighton got 2 Q trains.
:-) Andrew
I thought it over...I thought they need a FULL TIME train to run to Coney Island, plain and simple, as is the situation now, they need a 24/7 train...since the D was always 24/7 - let that be the designation...the B was always a P/T train...if this wasn't the case, they would have to make changes to the yello Q, making three changes...2 changes are beter than 3...that must be their reasoning...
My guess for car assignments:
B: R40
N: R68/R40
D: R68A
Q: R68/R40
Best
Jonathan
Not neccessary, when you still have the Q in 24/7. But you still have transfer between Q (Broadway line) and the D (6th Ave) at 34 you reaching for Dekalb Ave Station and between West End and Brighton line. With this service change its like say transfer between two Brighton line (the current line and former line).
The pic is 1906, probably January...
Anyone who has a relevant website and wants to use one of the Avenue H pictures to promote saving the station, feel free. You don't have to link back to rapidtransit.net or the Third Rail article, but you might want to least cite or link to the Times article.
Peace,
ANDEE
1) What was the nature of the service patterns between the J, JJ, M, MJ, QJ, & RJ trains in the late 60s? Was there express, or skip-stop service? Which ones were what? The maps here only tell the route.
2) Yesterday I saw something very interesting...an R30 (the one in my school, different sign every day) signed as:
Jamaica Center
Parsons/Archer
Chambers St
Manhattan
(Q) Broadway
Brooklyn
Now this raises an interesting question. Broadway-Brooklyn can be used as a designation for a train running on the Broadway El, or a train running from the IRT West Side to New Lots or Flatbush, or for a train that uses the BMT B'way subway to Brooklyn. Before the current system of letters was adopted, when they had only names to refer to routes, how would you distinguish between these three if you saw a train signed as "Broadway Brooklyn"? And second, when they adopted the letters, why didn't they change the (Q) sign to "Broadway Brighton"? Note that these are real signs on this R30, similar to those currently on R-32 and R-38 cars. And worse, what if such a train arrived at Atlantic/Pacific, where all three of the above combinations would stop? Was this a security measure in case the (Q) had to be shifted to another Brooklyn Line?
While the QJ ran (168th St to Coney Island via Brighton/Nassau) on weekdays, the letter "J" was never used. In 1973, when the QJ was cut back to Broad St, it was re-introduced. The M ran from Metropolitan Ave. to Broad St when the QJ ran. The M ran express from Myrtle to Marcy. The JJ ran for only a few months in 1967/68. It ran from Atlantic Ave to Canal St. On 7/1/68, it was replaced by the KK, whose routing should be familiar to you. The RJ ran just like the QJ did after reaching Broad St.
I have been reading a lot of the posts about what should and shouldn't be posted here, which foamer got which employee in trouble, etc. and what goes on in a train while in service.
May I make a few simple suggestions?
1) MTA employees have no obligation to post anything on Subtalk that is confidential to their employer, or share information that is not intended for public consumption. "Leaks" happe all the time, and MTA may not even care, depending on the subject. But if you're not sure it belongs here, don't post it. Posting "weird" stuff and neat pictures may be nice for us, the audience, but employees do not owe Subtalk anything.
2) There's nothing wrong with using Subtalk as a way of getting feedback on sticky situations - but you have to change the details enough so people don't automatically know the real incident. In medicine, we present the case of a patient, sharing relevant clinical details while witholding, or changing other details to prevent listeners from knowing it was Mary Jones we were talking about, who lives at 555 Lexington Avenue. You could do the same - but pay attention and do it right.
3) If a person sees something illegal or dangerous on a train, and wants to do something about it, do the right thing: call 911, call the Inspector General's office, write a letter of complaint, documenting things carefully, to MTA. If you post it here in a casual manner, by the time we get to the end of a thread, who knows how the details could change by the time MTA reacts to it? Recall the "person tells person tells person" routine. The story starts out as a theft of a piece of candy and winds up as a shooting...
Take responsibility for what you post.
- Sensitive/confidential stuff ... use great care in what you post as the TA is a very anti-information organization, i.e. only those at the highest level are "authorized" to talk to the public.
- Feedback on a job situation ... I have made a number of friends who work in different parts of the system or otherwise will give me a heads up. All of this via PRIVATE e-mail. I got one this AM from a non-employee. It was something I didn't know about. I sent copies to our Pres. & several VPs. Within an hour I got a reply from one of the VPs.
- Illegal/dangerous situations ... if you are concerned about it, report it officially or keep quite. Posting it here is probably not a good idea UNTIL it become public knowledge, then you can comment on it.
- Public service ... I for one am happy to answer questions put here or at BusTalk, but I do it on my terms, i.e. if it's something I don't know I'll go to the trouble to find out, if it's something I do know & I don't feel it's confidential I'll provide it. Sometimes the person doen't get the answer they wanted or I'll tell them that they are wrong or off base, but speaking just for myself I can do that.
- Disclaimers: If a lot of the folks at the web site know you're employee or it can be easily figured out, then add a disclaimer that you are NOT speaking officially. You wouldn't want to end up on the front page of the Daily News "Train Dude, speaking for the Maintenance Department of the TA, said ...."
Mr t __:^)
BTW, a mutual friend sends out XXX rated JPGs to a group of his firends.
I delete them right away & empty the "trash" to make sure they aren't on my work machine.
That might not even be enough. I once sent a letter to the editor in to Planning Magazine. They decided to print it, called me back, and asked me where I worked. I said that I was expressing my own opinion. They said that was understood, so I told them I worked at NYC Planning. The letter to the editor was signed "Larry Littlefield, NYC Planning." THE DAY AFTER THE MAGAZINE CAME OUT I was called on the carpet for giving the appearance of representing the views of the Department.
Some are better. The NY Times, when citing the fiscal data I have prepared on my own, didn't mention my employer: I asked them not to.
Larry Littlefield: Formerly of City Planning, current employer irrelevant.
Personally everybody, all the way to the top, knows I'm a railfan here.
They also know I sometimes get involved with the public/busfans on issues outside my job responsibility. I make not secret about what I do, e.g. the fare document that Allen provided that is now in our Transportation department. They also know HOW I do this, i.e. my previous post. Even some of the folks in nycDOT & TA know of my activities.
That doesn't mean that some circumstances might not occur where I embarras my employeer, but they will probably give me the benifit of the doubt.
I think the point here is that we employees need to seriously think about these issues and decide on how best to conduct ourselves. If at all possible find a way for your boss to know what you are doing. If they are the nervious, insecure type, then maybe you better be more careful. But most, if they know in advance, will defend you to some extent should something come up. At the very least they'll tell their boss at the time, "oh yea Thurston he's a railfan nut, but he's harmless" then tell you to cool it for a while. I have both kinds of bosses here, i.e. one thinks I'm a nut, another thinks what I do provides some benifit to my employeer.
Keep in mind also that if you work for a government entity, and you do not disclose any confidential information, and you make clear that you speak for yourself and not the entity, you have a First Amendment right of free speech to say what you want, including criticizing the entity you work for.
Tom
That may be the other extreem, but as we're said in this thread you do need to be aware that what you say CAN get you in trouble, so think about it first, not after you've said (typed) it.
Did you go to an event on February 18, 6:00PM at the Urban Center Galleries (456 Madison Avenue), that was described as an APA sponsored event, a panel discussion on the transit improvements proposed by the regional transit agencies and how they fit into the greater policy objectives for the City and the Region?
---Brian
I am, and I know whereof you speak.
- - - - -
[MTA employees have no obligation to post anything on Subtalk that is confidential to their employer, or share information that is not intended for public consumption.]
That statement should be a little stronger: As an employee of NYC Transit, I'm specifically obligated to NOT post anything (on Subtalk or anywhere else) that is confidential to my employer, and to NOT share information that is not intended for public consumption. Therefore, I limit my NYCT-related postings to either public information - i.e. things that are in operation, or have been in operation, or are currently being picked - or my own (hopefully obvious) personal opinions.
Yep, that's the policy as I read it, and a pretty good one.
On Rudy's plantation, in contrast, you were hesitant to say anything to anyone about anything. At City Planning, people would call up and ask for publicly available economic data. Under Dinkins I'd give it to them. After early 1997, when things got really freaky, I'd tell them to contact someone else.
NEVER disclose sensitive information
NEVER release details about an accident
NEVER criticise TA or its policies
NEVER identify anyone under any circumstances
I am very careful of my postings because I see an opportunity to
teach and instruct. Any violation of those four rules can lead to
charges of insubordination and loss of employment. What I do after
careful review is provide 'SubSchool 101' IF warranted. I enjoy doing that because it bolsters my confidence in what I do every day
and reinforces my experience. I also enjoy sharing my knowledge with my friends. CI peter
Look here
or point to this URL: http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-nybus033204299apr03,0,1561447.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dqueens
or Point and Click here
"We've got to protect our phoney-baloney jobs, Gentlemen!!!"
Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles
DOI though independent of agency they investigated still reported to and was influenced by the Mayors office.
You can not avoid this. It is better that it on an elected officials head otherwise who to hold accountable in case things go wrong
Pataki has done a masterfull job during his election of hiding from all the crap he has been doing
If reporting to the Attorney General and not the MTA Board, it would be independent, in the sense that there would be a different chain of command. MTA does not tell the Attorney General what to do.
Not sure if that would improve the quiality of oversight of the MTA operations. After the who fare increase issue fades away the public and politicians have little interest in the working of white collar investigative units. In the case of DOI, they don't want a strong DOI to crack down on the games they are playing
The AG budget is still set by the Govenor and the state senate. The govenor could easily still influence the IG's by limiting funding etc. Each new hire needs to be aproved in albany.
So you want the mta IG's be a unit of the AG's office. The current AG runs a rather tight operation. There manhattan office is real nice. A former Dot Com Space.
The MTA needs to be looked at from an operational point of view from top to bottom. Information technology needs to be put in place to adress area's that are prone to corruption and to improve the overall effeciency of the operation. Real time information shall set you free. Many of the low level scams can be easily identified and stoped befor they start costing the MTA large sums of money.
The technology exists and is being implimented by large corportations. There is a large upfront cost of implimenting such a system but at an organization the size of the MTA, it is penuts as to the cost savings
Otherwise you will have the same circular pattern of cases over and over. History proves that inconsistant procecution does not deter people from attempting to commit an act. With the current hog pog system of paper records it is very difficult to prove a case without someone feeling the heat and ratting someone out.
For point of reference it often take many weeks just to sort through boxes and boxes of junk to find anything useful. Thats if you get the opurtunity to take all business records from the offending company
Search warrents for records from contractors are often very specific to as what can be taken off property. A contractor who knows the system and wants to be a ball buster mixes his records is with other junk. The records needs to be gone through one by one on sight.
That is why better tracking makes it harder to hide money, no show jobs, purchase of lower grade materials etc.
In fact it would not be a bad idea if the mta is contracting out work to have contractors buy certain supplies such as concrete, lighting, elctrical cabling from MTA aproved suppliers at areed apon prices. The contractor would simple enter the order for the needed material into the MTA system with delivery directly to the work site for use.
One funny story. A co-worker of mine was working on a case involving the Department of Sanitation. DOS was keeping track of what trucks when out, came in, weight after pcikup etc in log books that looked like they belonged in alice in wonderland. Not to mention the entries were often written in pencil. These books weighed about 5-10 pound each.
Proceedure was to write it down in a peace of paper as the trucks when in and out then a secound person entered into this log book. Two people were employed to track these trucks in a log book that was virtually useless. It was very difficult for management to get a handle on what was going on.
The information could have been collected in a form useful to management by simply using a system that read an E-Zpass technology. Weight measurement could either been done by having a drive on scale or some on board sensor.
Cost - very cheap
Saving -tremedous
Abiltiy to track down potential issue and prevent stealing by employees.
The aligation was that NYC DOS trucks and crews were picking up garbage from local businesses and construction sites. Such an automated information system make the ability to pull off such a scheme virtually imposible.
Real time accurate information in an easy to query format would have spoted the fraud in secounds
A -- 8 AVE EXP
A -- FULTON ST EXP
A -- OZONE PARK
A -- LEFFERTS BL
Is it possible that they are finally updating R44 Destination signs just like they did on the R46's last year? I recall someone saying that they weren't gonna update R44 signs because they only operate on 2 lines (A, Rockaway Shuttle). Anyone in the know about this?
Brian
R68 2690
R44 5224
:-) Andrew
A -- FAR ROCKAWAY
A -- via JFK AIRPORT
A -- 8 AV EXP
A -- FULTON ST EXP
My long-standing comment on some bus destination signs applies here as well: By the time one reads the whole thing, the train is gone!!
And how does a train go to Far Rock "via JFK airport" its as annoying as "A via Delancy St" and "F via BWay-Nassau"
A--8 AVE EXP
A--INWOOD-207 ST
Saw cars 5390-5393 together with 5264-
OZONE PARK/LEFFERTS BL/8 AV EXP/FULTON ST EXP
Coming home northbound with south motor 5254
INWOOD/207 ST/8AV LCL
I wonder why does the TA insists on not including the northbound Fulton St status on all signs.
4. Which train will take you from the Native American caves of Inwood in Manhattan to the ocean beaches of the Rockaways?
a) IND E train
b) IND A train
c) BMT R train
d) IRT 9 train
See more sample questions here.
And you can find out more about the new exam from this New York Times article.
--Mark
These are the stations I can think of that are named after buildings. PS: I am talking about original station names, not names that have been tacked on since the station opened. (Example: West 8th Street on the BMT - had "New York Aquarium" tacked on. Since the Aquarium was not there when the station opened [it was in Battery Park until Robert Moses closed it as revenge for not getting the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge {according to Robert Caro}], that station doesn't count.)
City Hall - Lexington Avenue IRT
City Hall - Broadway BMT
Borough Hall - Brooklyn IRT (The Boro Prez is not a powerful position anymore, but it was in the early 20th century.)
45th Road/Courthouse Square - Flushing IRT
Grand Central - Lexington Avenue IRT
Bowling Green - Lexington Avenue IRT
Grand Army Plaza - Brooklyn IRT
68th Street/Hunter College - Lexington Avenue IRT
77th Street/Lenox Hill Hospital - Lexington Avenue IRT
Christopher Street/Sheridan Square - 7th Avenue IRT
Brooklyn Bridge - Lexington Avenue IRT
High Street/Brooklyn Bridge - 8th Avenue IND
Who can think of some others?
Is Broadway Junction a structure? More so than some of the other examples.
Until its name change to Neptune Avenue, Van Sicklen on the F, named for the hotel at that location and no other reason. Further in the past, don't forget Culver Depot.
Well Times Square fits both the "place" categories and the "building" categories, so it could be used in the original stations names named after buildings. I think Longacre Square became Times Square simaltanuously with the building of the subway and the Times Building in 1904.
If you want to have a category for stations that are named for places (as opposed to streets), we can add a lot.
To quibble slightly, Courthouse Square, Sheridan Square, Grand Army Plaza, Bowling Green, are places, not buildings or structures. And Brooklyn Bridge is a thoroughfare that people travel on, not just a structure.
(68th Street/Hunter College - Lexington Avenue IRT)
Also on the official map, BPB-Lehman College, 161st Yankee Stadium, 81st-Museum of Natural History, Woodhaven Blvd - Queens Mall(!), Willetts Point - Shea Stadium, WTC, 34th-Penn Station, South Ferry.
I think his original criteria was for stations named for buildings from the construction of the stations.
-I'm not sure if 161 Yankee Stadium counts in those criteria, but certainly counts in general. The mosaic says "161 St-River" I believe.
-Woodhaven Blvd counts, but not because of it's current name of "Queens Mall (Center)", but because it was called "Slattery Plaza", whatever that was.
Of course Shea, and WTC count in general, but not according to Mitch's "original station name" criteria.
South Ferry and 81st Street fit of course.
People assume that "South Ferry" refers to the fact that it is a ferry terminal at the southernmost tip of Manhattan. Not so. South Ferry refers to the ferry line that ran from that point to the tip of Hamilton Avenue in Brooklyn. The ferry terminal in Brooklyn was also known as South Ferry, just as both ends of Fulton Ferry were known by that name.
Properly, the name of the station should be "Municipal Ferry" or "Staten Island Ferry."
Of course a ferry is not a building. Is it a structure.
They can add something to the name, but I think the main name, and front part of the name should remain "Fulton Street". See Here.
Other than Broadway-Nassau, which can easily be changed to Fulton Street (as explained in the above link), all the other "Fulton stations have tile mosaics that say "Fulton Street". It would be a shame to cover the great new mosaics at the JMZ station, or the old ones at the 4/5 station. The base name has to remain "Fulton" for that reason alone. Call it Fulton Center, Fulton Station, Fulton STreet, or Fulton Whatever, but it has to remain "Fulton" because of all the tile walls. They should however take down the Broadway-Nassau metal signs, and replace them with Fulton Street (or Fulton Whatever). Other than that, no other name change will work, because there is no way to tastefully change the mosaics on all the walls in the other stations.
Perhaps "Fulton Street, New Amsterdam Transit Center" and "Broadway, New Amsterdam Transit Center" would do. They could add mosaics to cover the new concept. How about windmills?
To really stick with the retro theme, it could be "Niew Amsterdam."
Not that we're likely to see any renaming at all.
Hudson Terminal (original name for the last stop on the E)
181st Street-George Washington Bridge (if Brooklyn Bridge counts, then so does this)
Canal Street-Holland Tunnel (same here!)
110th Street-Cathedral Parkway (once removed)
A10 Medical Center
B01, F01 Gallery Place (National Portrait Gallery)
B03 Union Station
C07 Pentagon (A really big building)
C10 National Airport
D03, F03 L'Enfant Plaza (Hotel' shopping arcade)
D08 Stadium-Armory
E08 Prince George's Plaza (shopping center)
F02 Archives
K01 Court House Station
Other that are borderline;
D01 Federal Triangle
D02 Smithsonian
D05 Capitol South
F05 Navy Yard
Future planed stations
M03 Tyson Center (Tyson Central D) (shopping mall)
M04 Pike Seven Plaza (Tyson Central C) (shopping center)
M06 Wolf Trap (outdoor concert venue)
M11 Washington Dulles International Airport
What about White Flint (after the mall of the same name?
Mark
Opps !!
John
In San Francisco, there's BART's Coliseum station, and arguably El Cerrito Plaza and Bay Fair (both named for a nearby shopping center).
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
-Andrew Merelis
However, I do realize that this is a fantasy, and won't actually happen (nor should it). The station names are too well known to justify such massive changes. I would agree that this would make sense where formerly separate stations have been joined: Fulton/Bdwy/Nassau is perhaps the best example.
It would be gradually possible - in the style of "42nd Street" changing to "42nd Street - Bryant Park".
23rd St would actually be a very good place to start adding suffixes: 23rd St on the Broadway Line could become "23rd Street - Madison Square", but the others would require some work in coming up with a suffix.
23rd Street-Park, 23rd Street-6th, etc. Don't always have to do handsprings.
Good luck.
McBurney/St Vincent's.
Chelsea-Village.
Next?
---Brian
You know what I mean.
Good night.
Take Pride,
Brian
and, let's not forget:
23rd Street-Bellevue Medical Center (U,Y)
It get's silly when you have to have the name of the street the line is on after every station.
If the TA wanted to, they could eliminate street names entirely on the Broadway Line with little problem because of the number of Squares etc on the line!
What about Beach 98th St / Playland?
--Mark
On the Metro..
Lexington Market
Reisterstown Plaza
Mondawmin
On the Light Rail
BWI
Camden Yards
Convention Center
Lexington Market
Penn Station
Hunt Valley (in reference to the Mall)
Mark
The R17, the R16's IRT twin, never had the same problems. Was that due to proper maintenance (they spent the bulk of their early years on the high-profile east-side IRT), or were they mechanically different?
The boys at Kingston say the same about their R-16
-- Ed Sachs
In early 1961, the new R27s suffered from guilt-by-association. Followng a particularly bad snowstorm that winter (which had the Brighton and Sea Beach lines shut down for several hours with 3' snowdrifts in the open cuts) the brand-new R27s were pulled of the Brighton (QT) line and reassigned to the all-underground RR (now R) line.
That was the last time it happend. By the following winter, all of the R27s and R30s had been delivered, and the RR line as all new cars as well.
-- Ed Sachs
The G.E. R-16's were scrapped first, I believe in the early 80's. Those R-16's were mothballed at Rockaway Park, Concourse, Fresh pond Yards and elsewhere. I can't say when the last G.E. R-16's were in revenue service.
Bill "Newkirk"
A search through the archives says it was June 1987 on the M.
thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
i dare to ask why ????
46s are in better condition !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
You have can have "faith" that the R40s may stick around longer, but not know their true "fate" or destiny as to whether they will.
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
thats sucks !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
N-slant 40
-Myrtle Ave (L), Wyckoff Ave (M) to Myrtle-Wyckoff Avenues --- no mosaic tablets to change, just take down the Wyckoof signs upstairs, and the Myrtle signs downstairs, and put up "Myrtle-Wyckoff Ave" signs.
-Broadway-Nassau St (A,C) to Fulton Street. Call the whole complex Fulton Street. Easy to do because it only involves taking down the Broadway-Nassau signs and replacing them with Fulton Street. Again, no mosaics to deal with on Bway-Nassau St (the little IND "Bway"s and "Nassau"s could stay - no big deal - WTC said H&M for years). The other stations all say Fulton street in their mosaics, so no changes needed there.
-Bleecker St (6), Bway/Lafayette to Bleecker-Layayette. Again, very easy to do. Change the metal signs on the Bway-Lafayette platforms to Bleecker-Lafayette. The Lexington Bleecker station is to undergo a renovation, and in the contract one part of the station, they can just renovate the old tablets. On the extensions, which are ugly anyway, they can have a great opportunity to play with the name, and make new tilework showing the new station name - Bleecker-Lafayette Streets.
The ones above are the simplest to change, and would not involve much money, or construction, or covering or destroying mosaics. I am all for changing the names of all the transfer complexes into a uniformed name. Some of them are hard though because of mosaics, for example Lorimer St-Metropolitan Ave. It would be hard to tastefully incorporate a new name into either of those stations.
Then there are some others that could easily be changed without worrying about mosaic tablets, but have no idea what to call the complex:
-6th Ave - (L) and 14th Street - (1,2,3,9)
-Roosevelt Ave - 74th St
Both of these could have their entire names changed, and would not involve anything but metal sign changes.
Any suggestions?
That would be unhelpful for 7th Avenue Line riders as Cortlandt St is actually at the World Trade Center.
True, but only the 1/9 7th Ave riders would to Cortlandt, and only the 2/3 7th Ave riders would go to the new World Trade Center station (formerly Park Place), so it wouldn't really be confusing.
Yeah, but if you are destined for the World Trade Center and you are on the 1/9, you will get off at Cortlandt-World Trade Center, and if you are on the 2/3, you will get off at World Trade Center (former Park Pl). How is this confusing? For all the other passengers not bound for the WTC, it doesn't even matter, they are headed to other 2/3 stops or the remaining 1/9 stops
How is this more confusing than if you are at 145th/St Nicholas bound for 155th street? If you are at 145th, no matter which side of the fork you are destined for, the next stop is 155th, but they are different stops.
Just because there's an awkward situation there, you don't have to create one somewhere else too.
Yeah, but if you are destined for the World Trade Center and you are on the 1/9, you will get off at Cortlandt-World Trade Center, and if you are on the 2/3, you will get off at World Trade Center (former Park Pl).
I'd much rather extend the 8th Avenue Local tracks a bit further South, between the Broadway and 7th Avenue Local Lines to a terminus at Cortlandt St, with a transfer passage to both the 7th Av and Broadway Lines. Then call the station at Cortlandt St "World Trade Center" and the A/C/2/3 complex "Park Place".
Why is it awkward up there? I don't think it's really a problem up at 155th stree, and I still don't think it would be a problem at WTC either.
As for the WTC, if you work near the WTC area, you are going know which exit or station will be close to where you work, so if you are a 1 rider, you will either go straight through to Cortlandt-WTC, or you may even get off at Chambers and switch to a 2 to WTC (former Park Place, depending on works for you and what exit gets you closest your destination (or visa-versa for the 2 riders). And tourists or non-regular users destined for the WTC area will be in the area whether or not they get of of the 1/9 station or the 2/3 station.
It's not like it's two stations in a row on the same line with the same name. That would be awkward and confusing. This would be two stations with a similar name (remember the 1/9 Cortlandt-WTC would still have the a slightly different name), but they are not even on the same line technically 2/3 trains never go on the SF line, and the 1/9 never go to Brooklyn.
The 1/9 goes one way and the 2/3 goes another way, just like up north at 155th Street the C goes one way and the B goes the other.
I'd much rather extend the 8th Avenue Local tracks a bit further South, between the Broadway and 7th Avenue Local Lines to a terminus at Cortlandt St, with a transfer passage to both the 7th Av and Broadway Lines. Then call the station at Cortlandt St "World Trade Center" and the A/C/2/3 complex "Park Place".
But then there is construction involved. It's a good idea, but with my idea, the only cost involved is the removal of one set of signs, and replacement with another. As for calling the 8th Ave line's station Park Place, I don't think that would be an accurate name for the 8th Ave line station. I still think it would be fine to change Park Place to WTC, but the reverse is not feasible. If we can't agree on WTC as a complex name, I don't feel it could be Park Pl for a complex name either.
1) the LIRR station IIRC is called Flatbush Avenue Terminal.
2) Atlantic Terminal would be inaccurate as it would only be the terminal for one of the lines there.
How about holding our noses and saying that if some bigwig politician will fund a 4 track Second Avenue Subway, it can be renamed something ghastly like J** B**** Transportation Center?
Cypress Hills - whatever street the entrance is located at.
Jamaica-Van Wyck - Jamaica Ave
5 Ave - Bryant Park
Sheepshead Bay - just add Road to the name.
Prospect Park - Empire Blvd-Prospect Park.
Except at most stations in London.
OK.
This is Crescent Street. Queens-bound J, the next stop will be Crescent Street.
Eastern Parkway is a strange name, since the entire line from that point to Utica is under Eastern Parkway. I prefer to call it by its subtitle, Brooklyn Museum. (A street name would be even better but we don't have one.)
....see, this is how SubTalk legends like 76th Street start......
B Line-Between Brighton Beach/Brooklyn and 145th Street/Manhattan daily except for late nights. Rush hours extended from 145th St to Bedford Park Blvd/Bronx. Operates via Brighton Express,6th Ave Express,Central Park West Local,Concourse Local
D Line-Between Stillwell Ave/Brooklyn and 205th Street/Bronx at all times. Express in Bronx Peak direction Rush Hours. Makes local stops between 36th St and Pacific Street midnight hours, and 59th St to 145th Street late nights when B does not operate. Skips DeKalb Ave when M Line operates. Operates via West End Local,4th Ave Express,6th Ave Express,central Pk West Express,Concourse Line
M Line-Between Metropolitan Ave and 9th Ave Weekdays 6AM to 8PM. Extended from 9th Ave to Bay Pkway rush hours. Operates via Myrtle Ave Local,Broadway/Jamaica Local,Nassau Street Local,4th Ave Local,West End Line
N Line-Between Stillwell Ave and Ditmars Blvd/Astoria at all times via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express,Broadway Express to 34th Street then via Local,60th Street Line,Astoria Line. Late nights via Broadway Local. Skips De Kalb Ave weekdays 6AM to 9PM
Q Line-Between Stillwell Ave and 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Local and Broadway Express at all times
R Line-Between 95th St/4th Ave and Continental Ave at all times via 4th Ave Local,Broadway Local,60th St Line,Queens Blvd Local
W Line-Between Ditmars Blvd/Astoria and Whitehall Street Weekdays 6AM to 8 PM via Broadway Local,60th St and Astoria Line.
G Line-Midnight hours cut back from Continental Ave to Queens Plaza 12AM to 5:30AM
J/Z Line-Skip Stop service span to operate inb both directions rush hours and weekend J service extended to Broad Street
This plan will do the following:
1-Maintain midday service level on 4th Ave Local same as current.
2-Introduce weekend Brighton Line Express Service
3-Maintain both 6th Ave and Broadway service for Brighton Line passengers.
4-Improve downtown service
5-Improve late night 4th Ave Local Service
6-Restore 24 hour service to West End,Sea Beach,4th Ave to/from Manhattan in over 25 years
Any comments
Thank You
Also the B should go to E 200th Street middays and rush hours to extend the Concourse Express, to make up for this, the B can be the late night and weekend West End SHUTTLE, and unlike last time, it will be a shuttle shortly after midnight in BOTH directions, just like the 5 line. Last train from 145 St at 10:35 pm
Brighton xpress service will likley be curtailed from 2004-2008 for other work in that area.
There will also be significant work in Manhattan the will affect weekend service, too.
Of course until the host puts in a policy about banging people in and posting about it you will have to wait until it filters down.
Brighton xpress service will likley be curtailed from 2004-2008 for other work in that area.)
I don't see anything on the MTA web site (other than SAS stuff) that projects beyond the 2000-2004 capital plan. If there are internal documents that haven't been released to the public, most of us here don't have a chance to read them.
If these documents are available to the public in some non-obvious way, could you please tell us what that is?
Thanks.
See I am not a buff I was interested in current information on train stuff but you guys have driven away most of the T/O's that are breakdown experts. As RX and being involved with the Union, I do get to see stuff of minor interest to me but greater interest to you. There is NO reason to share when you guys tolerate banging people in for small crap. I am not saying to cover if someone overruns a few stations or opens on the wrong side. But most of you want the crews to talk to you but now you will not tolerate them talking to anyone else.
OTOH from Neck Rd to Ave H there will be tracks out of service from 2004-2008 for Station Structure Remediation and some ADA work at the Hwy. Or does it matter that Lower manhattan riders want local stations and Astoria riders crave the express stops plus 49st. The Metrocard is a great analysis tool.
On the more general topic, you are of course entitled to be as open or as closed-mouthed as you wish. But perhaps you might consider that Subtalkers, like police officers (see Train Dude's post of today), NYCT employees, firemen, priests, subway riders, etc., come in all forms. Some are totally self-centered and selfish and most are very decent people. Some will be self-centered and obnoxious some of the time and very generous at other times.
Most posters on Subtalk have never made a big fuss about the conduct of any MTA employee. Relatively few (though more than I wish) have ever deliberately insulted another poster. But the people who do make Subtalk less pleasant can't be removed. Even if David wanted to be a policeman, there's always the issue that what annoys you may not be what annoys me, etc., etc.
I guess it was better when Subtalk was just a small bunch of people. It's got so many posters now that someone is always going to be annoying someone else.
- 4 CPW services on the weekend
- 2 Brighton services on the weekend and late nights
- Full length R late nights
- M service extended into south Brooklyn middays
- B/D will be completely R68. Can Concourse handle all 415ish available cars?
- The Q will use the R68A's. If there are any left, they will fill in on the B or D.
- The N & W will be all R40, both slant and modified.
Sorry Brighton express riders, but the current service proposal precludes their continued use on this line.
I still don't understand the rationale behind the B/C swap -- in particular, how important is it at this point that R-40's stay away from Concourse?
If it's not important, then the Brighton express will probably keep its R-40's, which will return home to the B. Since the B is a longer route than the current diamond-Q, the N will have mostly R-68's or R-68A's and few or perhaps even no R-40's. The Q will take the rest of the R-68's and R-68A's.
If it is important, then the B will get its R-68A's back. Either the N or the Q will run exclusively R-40's, with many on the other.
In either case, the D will stick with its R-68's, and the part-time W will probably run R-40's.
This is all speculation. We'll see what actually happens.
it cant be happening !! it cant be happening !! AW SH*T !
Well there goes my home route ! AW FU*K !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants !
vlad
A R44, R32-38
B R40
C R30, R32-38
D R68
E R32-38, R44
F R46
G R46
H R30
J R40M-42
L R40-40M-42
M R40-40M-42
N R68
Q R40, R68
R R46
S R68
Z R40M-42
- B/D will be completely R68. Can Concourse handle all 415ish available cars?
- The Q will use the R68A's. If there are any left, they will fill in on the B or D.
- The N & W will be all R40, both slant and modified.
Sorry Brighton express riders, but the current service proposal precludes the slants from continued use on this line.
does anyone know the faith of the BHRA aka Brooklyn trolley museum ?
i heard only that its going to be shutdown !
Thanks
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the slants and the tolley's !
Not "faith" .... you mean to say "fate"
so what is it ??
OK, in English:
I think the BHRA is a secular organization.
Let's also try Canadian:
I think the BHRA is a secular organization.
and Australian:
I think the BHRA is a secular organization.
lol
(those who know some Ancient Greek will get that one)
if no you have anwered you own question !
Two shrimp on the barbie for ya, mate!
--Mark
Carless mitsakes always sink me.
You're slipping ... and I did get the Greek gymnasium reference. Naughty, naughty.
No, those days are behind me, now:
I'VE FALLEN AND I CAN'T GET UP!
Carless "mitsakes" always sink me !
"mitsakes" ?????? L.M.A.O.
and there goes the titanic !
If you don't believe me, well, I don't have fate in your spelling.
lol
I think the BHRA is a secular organization.
Except most Brits would write "organisation".
NJ will take 250 Redbirds, with a 8-year moratorum on train car reefs.
(After reading this, I am going to talk to a local short-line near me (Morristown & Erie Railway) about them buying and saving some Redbirds).
Unfortunately, MTA still has no process in place for "buying" a complete Redbird for any other use. MTA is responsible for mitigating the shells in advance of transfer so they will not leave the property until "packaged" for reefing. At least one trolley museum is working to preserve a pair intact, but this has not (to my knowledge) been resolved as yet. So, in short, M&E likely wouldn't have any better luck than others have to date.
Sorry...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
(Q)-From Coney Island to 57th st/6th av. Brighton Local, 6th av express. All times.
< Q >-From Brighton Beach to 57th st/7th av. Brighton/Broadway express. Rush hours/middays.
(Q)-Brighton Beach to 71-Continental Av.* South from BB then Over West end express track beginning at Bay Pkwy, peak direction express. West End/4th av/Broadway exp. 63rd st tunnel. Queens Blvd local. Nights terminates at 57th st/7th av, and runs via 4th av local.
(B)-168th st manhattan to Bay Pkwy. CPW local, 6th av express, 4th av local. Weekdays until 9pm.
(D)-205th st to Coney Island, via CPW/6th av/4th av/Sea Beach express. Peak direction exp from 59th st to Kings hwy on Sea Beach, then via local to CI. All times. Nights via 4th av local.
(N)-Ditmars Av/Astoria to Kings hwy. Broadway/4th av exp, Sea Beach local. Nights/weekends no service.
(R)-Ditmars Av/Astoria to 95th st Bay Ridge. Broadway local, 4th av local. All times.
(M)-Metropolitan Av to Broad St. Rush hours, extended to 9th av lower level.
< W >-Rush hours. From 57th/7th av to Whitehall st.
(F)-returned to 53rd st tunnel. When Bergen interlocking work is finished, via Crosstown exp.
(V)-suspended until work on bergen interlocking is completed. Then from 57th/6th av to Kings Hwy. Via 6th av/crosstown locals.
*-Work will be done north of 57th/7thv to tie in local trackways to the broadway/63rd connector. The aforementioned (Q) train will switch to the local tracks just south of 57th/7th av, along with the N. N will use 60th st tunnel, (Q) will use 63rd.
Benefits of this plan: Every line has a 6th av and Broadway train. 4th av service increases markedly, and also attempts to get some Brighton Riders off of the Brighton Line.
Can anyone point out why this plan would be bad? (aside from the extreme cost it would incure, or the fact that there may not be enough cars.)
(Q)-Brighton Beach to 71-Continental Av.* South from BB then Over West end express track beginning at Bay Pkwy, peak direction express. West End/4th av/Broadway exp. 63rd st tunnel. Queens Blvd local. Nights terminates at 57th st/7th av, and runs via 4th av local.
Too confusing to have a West End and a Brighton Q (three Q's total!)whether it's diamond or circle, orange or yellow. It works on Brighton now because it's the same line, it would be too confusing on two seperate lines. The service ide may work, but it needs too be called something else other than Q.
Also, I can't find a West End local? (I must've missed it). But either way, now there are two locals on West End, and obviously you have one, but if the M is cut to 9th Ave, and all this service on the West End local, I don't think the West End Local stations are being served enough, you may have to keep the W there for a local train on the West End.
(M)-Metropolitan Av to Broad St. Rush hours, extended to 9th av lower level.
Ahhh, someone has been listening! Not bad, 4th Ave still gets the M at rush hours, and M riders keep the Fulton St transfer during the day.
The **** should read "West End Express".
I think the service from Queens Blvd local stops to E 53rd St has disappeared. That service is necessary to reduce crowding on the E and F. Without it, crowding will return to pre-Dec 2001 levels.
All the south Brooklyn lines are way overserved. I can't wait to see the jams at Stillwell and Brighton Beach.
Direct access between Stillwell and local stops on the Sea Beach/West End lines is eliminated.
The N and W cross paths.
The R is the only midday Broadway local.
I could probably find more problems if I looked at it for another two minutes.
It's innovative but I'm afraid it's full of holes.
Too many Q trains.
Canceling the V would make Queens Blvd. an unbearable hell. (no mention was made of G service...)
W is pointless. Unless you're change the tph on the N, not running the W from astoria isn't smart.
This is just what I got from skimming...
Certainly, but only because you asked for it. Here are two points, spoken like a Queens rider.
1. Mind your P's and Q's. Since you don't have any P routes in there, I must be referring to the Q's. Too many. Convenience demands that another letter be used.
2. Queens Boulevard riders are hurt by this plan. The V is eliminated. The R is eliminated (from the Queens Boulevard Line). In return for this, riders receive a Broadway Local Q via the 63rd Street Tunnel and the F put back on the 53rd Street Tunnel. I don't think both Queens Boulevard express services should be put in the same tunnel, putting enormous stress on the junction.
If a route is not mentioned, it is unchanged from the previous post.
(Q)-Coney Island to 179th st via Brighton Local, 6th av express, 63rd st, queens blvd exp, Hillside exp.
(F)-Coney Isle to 179th st via Culver/6th av local, 53rd st, Queens Blvd exp, Hillside local.
(W)-Queensboro Plz to Whitehall st. Via Broadway local, rush hours/middays.
(V)-continental to 2nd av, via 53rd st, queens blvd/6th av lcls.
E/F/Q-10tph each. E/F/V can all fit in 53rd st tunnel, and both Q trains can fit in 63rd st. now there are 2 queens blvd locals.
Guys, i wasnt really being too serious with this one....... Just trying to take off with everyone's obsession with the Brighton line, and trying to make the craziest plan possible. Then again, it IS the best plan!
10 tph on the E isn't enough to carry the hordes going the reverse way from Penn Station to E 53rd St.
The W service is needed in Astoria, not Queensboro Plaza. Vast hordes of yuppies are moving there and taking the train to Manhattan during rush hours.
Both N and R go there.
10 tph on the E isn't enough to carry the hordes going the reverse way from Penn Station to E 53rd St
Ok then. 12 E trains, 9 (F) trains, 9 (Q) trains.
THE BEST PLAN!
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Thank you very much,
Coco McPherson
I think you will find that most of us here are in the same situation.
CC Local might be able to help. He plans to use tokens until the very last day.
Big drawback with token: not accept for FREE surface to rail transfer.
So when is the protest to keep the tokens?
Join the parade!
Set on vibrate no doubt. Sheesh - talk about a booty call.
Hey - he started it!!!!!
--Mark
Yo pig that is not kosher ! lol
I can put you in touch with both organizations.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
As for the two R42's. That seems to be what everyone is confirming. I confirmed that Tuesday, David Greenberger confirmed that yesterday, and now you today. (I also saw one set of R40M).
It appears that when three more trainsets of R143 arrive, the L will be 100% R143.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
As for next weeks and two from this weekend G.O. Shuttle busses replace train from Braodway Junction to Leffects Ave from 11:00pm to 5am weekdays and 11:00pm Friday to 5:00am Monday.
Robert
This also reminds me of a question that I posted a while ago that some tried to speculate on, but nobody gave a definite answer. If every train went out of service, could all the yards and sidings hold them? It's not like tracks are being added to yards, so where are they storing all these extra B-division trains? They haven't gotten rid of any yet and they will probably need them with extra service next year when the MB opens. They just keep ordering more and more and more...where are they putting them?
Flexible 9037 on the #29
---Brian
Good God, do you think the 1970s never happened? Some of us had the bad fortune to grow up in them, and now you want us to wear fedoras and break our ankles on high heels (no wife or daugher or mine)! From the title, I thought the thread was about littering, not fashion. As for the former, we are still stepping on the black chewing gum wads from the good old days.
(Common courtesy, pride in one's appearance, and simple good grooming can make a WORLD of difference!)
To those who have noting else to be proud of. In your particular level of hell, may you be condemned to wear tightly knotted neckties and three-piece suits 24/7!
I've always said that Ronkonkoma station is hell on Earth. Guess this proves the point.
Why end there at the time of ties, suits and fedoras? Why not go back to the powdered wigs of the 18th Century, or maybe the complicated gowns worn by Henry VIII and his high-class contemporaries?
If you look at a retrospective of fashion through history, you'll find that clothing has become less and less "decent" and "proper" and more and more comfortable. The clothing from the past was too cruel to even force a mannequin to wear!
Tell me what purpose a tie serves? Seriously. A nice shirt will have buttons, so what purpose does a tie have other than as a noose by which individuals are hanged by the forces of conformity?
The last time I went to a formal event, there was NO TIE on my neck.
Then why don't you wear a loincloth and go bashing bison with a wooden club for dinner? For after all, if you were truly in favor of conserving everything, how could you ever have advanced past that point?
Why is it fine to advance to 1953 and not to 2003?
On the other hand, I see no problem in wearing an armpit stained undershirt and ripped-at the-asscrack Umbro shorts when I go to the gym :-)
That's OK... those who know me understand perfectly well why my image doesn't reflect in a mirror... and no, contrary to the opinion of my employees, I am NOT one of the "undead"... it's just that even the mirror understands the concept of ugly :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, if you're skinny, which is what you seem to be saying, that's actually good. Eat a lot, do some heavy weights, and before you know it you'll have terrific muscular definition and vascularity.
Here is a very good site for a quick-bulking program.
-Robert King
OH! A gym!
American Pig: 6'1" 224 pounds
Well actually, get enough exercise and you can keep eating the same, or even more, yet still lose weight.
6'1" and 224 #s doesn't sound bad, not pig-like at all.
with me is simmiar thing 6feet 5in 180lbs 8% body fat !
all of that becouse of badminton ,voleyball ,soccer and kickboxingand also karate !
and im only 18! lol
N_Slant_40
with me is simmiar thing 6feet 5in 180lbs 8% body fat !
all of that becouse of badminton ,voleyball ,soccer and kickboxingand also karate !
and im only 18! lol
N_Slant_40
From what I remember from health class, I've concluded it doesn't matter what you weigh, as long as you think you look good and a doctor says you're physically healthy. Fat weighs less than muscle, so charts that compare your height with weight are pointless if you don't know your body fat %.
That's nice. I'm sure you've also never known a woman in your life.
Again, I think subway riders dress pretty neat compared to Long Islanders in their jeans and sportwear.
The point of clothing is to cover your body and provide warmth. Those "jeans and sportwear" you decry achieve that purpose admirably and do so with a maximum of comfort.
Please stick to serious topics.
I dunno, but last time I wore one, I made up for it with a red crushed velvet waistcoat and bow-tie - it was quite fun standing out a bit from all the boring people who were too stingy to buy a waistcoat and wore black bow-ties - oh, and the ladies seemed to like it...
The previous time I wore a purple bow-tie...
:-o Andrew
And this was pre-air-con! They must've been mad!
Please elaborate on this.
---Brian
Has nothing to do with it.
(Hope you never get them nasty little buggers again!)
Having your two and four year old get them is worse. Combing out the nits hurts, and who likes to hurt their kid for an hour a day for weeks, sometimes after putting pesticides on them. Lice went around the pre-K classroom for months, as the kids passed it back and forth. It was seven years ago, and we still have nightmares about it. It was one of the three worst things to happen in our lives, and the other two involved deaths (one was 9/11).
Cool
:)
Then I guess we won't see you dress that way.
What about all those men that wore hats in the old days? Why is one type of head covering right, but another wrong? Doorags are less offensive than a fedora: They don't block anyone's view, and you can't hide stuff under it.
Teenagers have traveled in packs since the dawn of time, it is part of their nature. It is quite fashionable nowadays to deny them that and force them to be locked in their house when not at school. Thank god NYC doesn't have a curfew law (it wouldn't affect me, but I would oppose one as a matter of principle).
The girls are no different,they dress trashy,with mouths to match,pushing a baby stroller,with sometimes more than one illigitimate child.
This is a biased sample. You are using the behavior of a small subset of a group in order to attribute those behaviors to the group at large.
In 1999, there were 49.6 births for every 1000 girls aged 15-19, a third of these people are adults.
You think this rate was higher than in 1949? GUESS AGAIN! The rate in 1949 was 81.9. In 1974 it was 58.1. The 1999 rate was the lowest since 1919.1
Rap music blares from the walkmans and discmans(yes I HATE THAT GARBAGE!!!!!)
So what? I hate YOUR music too. Would you rather the music be blaring from a cranked up boombox as one had in the 1970s?
God for bid you look at someone the wrong way,they want to put a bullet in your head for "dissing"them.
Everyone is out to get you, aren't they?
Come to think of it,when I see the rats and giant roaches crawling around on the trackbed,at least I am looking at more civilized behaivor than my human counterparts!!!
I see that you take pride in your misanthropy
1Source: National Center for Health Statistics, Natality, Vital Statistics of the United States (1937- ); Birth Statistics (1905-36). Washington: US Department of Health and Human Services. Populations from US Bureau of the Census.
You're not alone. I too hate Rap music. Nor do I have respect for people who wear gangsta clothes. I too hear this horrible music, but from cars. I sometimes think these suburbanite kids are alot worse than city kids. Many kids out here in Massapequa are wannabes. They act tough and stuff but I think they are really wusses inside.
-Robert King
Another gripe, I jumped on an express train heading to Flushing. When the train got to Shea stadium, the conductor said there was conjestion at the Flushing station. We waited about 15mins with the doors wide open, while it was cold outside as well as feel the A/C on inside the cars. Another disregard for the customer. When the train finally left the station, it headed toward the station tunnel, but then stop short of going inside because of a RED signal. We waited outside the tunnel for what seem to be eternity. What burned me up was that the so-called EXPRESS train had to wait oustide while 3 local trains past us by. Why bother taking an EXPRESS train if the local train gets into the station before anyone else does. I have seen it happen all too often......
That's weird. And there are frequent delays during the rush when trains are headed into Main Street. The interlocking at the other end (Times Square) seems to be so good; maybe the best around. Is there some reason why it takes so much longer at Flushing. Perhaps it's the 3 tracks, but even when both the E and F ran to 179th Street I can't remember such delays (or maybe it's because of memory lapses-I was just a youngster then).
Are there any plans to upgrade the train-turning ability of the station? Is it even possible?
I was going to ask the same thing. It happens routinely; the express sits outside the portal because we're "waiting for a train to leave Main St terminal." A train comes out... and a local goes in. Then another train comes out... and another local goes in. Third train comes out... third local comes in. The first local that came in comes out, local #4 goes in. The express is finally given the yellow-over-green after local #2 comes out, twelve or so minutes later.
My only guess is that it's caused by local trains bunching because of door-holding at 74 St, but then, why not short-turn them at Willets Pt Blvd and kick the passengers onto the express? Usually, the express is SRO, while each local has maybe fifty passengers. What's more puzzling is that this holding doesn't cause a conga line of expresses; I've never been on a train that was held for congestion before Willets Pt Blvd.
Well, my observations are that two (maybe one) express train(s) can occupy the track between Willets Point Boulevard and the interlocking at Main Street. Another train can be held at Shea Stadium. Then beyond that, up the line, at the downgrade on the flyover track, there are timers. I've never seen congestion further back than that. Of course, maybe that's because by the time the timers allow an express train to the top of the track, the express in front has cleared through Shea Stadium.
No. Several trains, Queens-bound locals, at least during rush hours, terminate at Willets Point Boulevard. I'm not certain, but I'd guess about 5 tph or so. Sometimes, the destination sign on the front even denotes this (but this is the 7 line after all, with route and destination signage not given high priority by most T/O's to be changed with the route and service).
GOOD POINT on the last notation........ but cmon... please
tell us------- WAS IT ATLEAST A REDBIRD??
1SF9
Explore inside an idle redbird.
A fare increase causes P.A. systems to malfunction ? Gee, that's interesting, please explain how !
Bill "Newkirk"
Number of available areas to purchase fare media with fully staffed double-booth: 2
Number of available areas to puchase fare media with one agent and multiple machines: More than 2
I say the MTA should continue its current staffing policy: Punish the luddite fools without affecting me.
And when the machine malfunctions is the customer still a luddite fool? I ride BART whose TVMs did not accept the new Fed Reserve 20's for six months after introduction. Agents do not by policy handle ANY monet. please swipe again. How long has it been since you deposited a token and the gate failed to recognize it. Obviously I am willing to use modern technology (this computer board) but there are many things which do NOT need techno replacements.
This would be difficult to say since I haven't even used a token in years. But if you must know, this has happened. At least the MTA turnstiles have coin return slots and digital displays that say TOKEN RETURNED.
I haven't used a token in many years, but I remember the jammed slots. If you were lucky, you got your token back out. If you weren't, you lost the token and didn't get in either.
I agree Metrocards can be a pain, but I've lost less money and time using them than using tokens. If S/As were measured on the cleanliness of Metrocard slots, there wouldn't be any problem with them. As it is, some agents don't seem to care how well the Metrocard readers work, and make the experience unpredictable.
So with the increase in the fare, how can you say everything is going to be worst.
If it wasn't for progress, you'll still be on MS-DOS 2.0.
damn right !
Try to buy your Metrocards at a booth that is not that busy. Easy if you try.
"the added thrill of watching three downtown #2s pass by before a #3 finally shows up"
Depending on where you're going on the #2 or #3, Take a #2 traib as far as you have to go and catch a #3 train further down the line. Better than waiting on the platform and watching a crowd form.
"more discarded Metrocards discarded on the station floors."
Call 718-243-3222 once in a while and complain to a supervisor who can order a cleaner to clean the cards off the floor instead of complaining to the agent in the booth who can't come out and do it himself.
"more surly and obnoxious station personnel."
If people complained to and/or threatened you over things you have little (or any) control over, you'd be the same way. They don't want to be.
How does a fare increase cause employee surliness and obnoxiousness?
Thank you Alanis Morissette
Thank you Google
However, the "R" should be upgraded a bit to headways of at least 6-7 minutes. I know the Queens section has these headways.
The map shows the Manny B fully open, with the N Sea Beach and Q Brighton on one side, and the D Brighton and B West End on the other. So it appears the D/B switch in Brooklyn, rather than on the Concourse, was of recent vintage.
Since the Q would obviously be a 24/7 line to serve Second Avenue and Broadway, this implies that until recently the TA was considering a D/B switch on the Concourse rather than in Brooklyn. The D would be weekday, express, on the Concourse and Brighton from Brighthon Beach to Bedford Park. The B would be 24/7 on the West End and Concourse from 205th to Coney Island, and perhaps David G would have gotten his second local on Central Park West.
Obviously, their plan for everything other than the SAS doesn't fully hold water. But they really only need to name routes so that they can describe estimated impacts of the SAS on other lines.
Steve Loitsch
On April 1st, a clearance test train left Mosholu Yard at 6:00 pm and operated over various IRT lines. THe train was composed of three motors, car 8776, XC 375, 8777 and three more motor cars. THe motor cars were single unit R17, R21 or R22 cars.
So it's later than I thought...
But isn't it ironic. The TA was so in love with the economies of longer equipment that they were interested in a 64' IRT car. Now we're back to ordering 60' BMT cars.
I still have my doubts a 64' car could make a lot of the IRT curves.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I have some video in mini DV format that I have been planning to convert to mpeg and put online. Does anyone have a good free or cheap hosting company that allows unlimited bandwidth or cheap bandwidth.
I have fotage of numerous paris subway lines, stations and of course lovely parisians on the trains
-- Tim, who's on a new schedule and hopes most of his trains tomorrow will be C20
--Mark
-Stef
Based on my reading, the Board of Transportation in the 1920s did some research that suggested that a 55' long car (of about 10' width but with tapered ends) could serve most IRT lines with relatively minor wayside clearance obstruction removals (and of course altered platform width). They did this as they pondered the ultimate design paradigm for the IND subway system, with hopes of "recapturing" the Dual-Contracts built lines and integrating them with the IND. However they felt it probably wasn't worth the longterm bother, and settled on a 60' X 10' design for the R1/9's.
Hasn't anyone noticed the date on this report (8-) ??
David
Incidentally, this same Proposition One would have included funds for 280 rehabilitated BMT / IND cars. "Inside sources" in September and October of 1979 claimed that many of the cars to receive the overhaul would be the R-16, and as part of the overhaul, they would get air conditioning. The estimated cost of this project was $98 million. A prototype refurbished R-16 (6429) was put on display at the 207th Street shop during an open house in September 1979. It even had a full width cab.
More information on Proposition One can be found in the discussion of the NYCTA in the 1970s.
--Mark
I doubt it could have run on the 2/3 lines either (curve South of Chambers St) or the 7 line (curve West of QBP). So we'd be looking at a car which could only run on the 4 train. Brilliant.
No offence, but not using MetroCard (aka not getting the discounts) is dumb.
---Brian
1) You have to wait on line to buy them. With the Metrocard you can buy a one day Funpass, weekly and monthly Metrocards. Try that with a bag of tokens !
2) Everytime a fare increase happens, everyone hoards them. The TA limits sale to two. Longer lines at the booths. Sometimes a different size token has to be minted. This isn't cheap. Counterfeiters make slugs and sell them cheaper than the fare.
When the fare increase happens, the turnstile or farebox will just deduct $2 from the Metrocard after the stroke of midnight of the first day of the $2 fare.
3) Oh and how about the Metrocard transfer ? Subway to bus, bus to subway, bus to bus. No can do with a token ! And there are those Metrocard subway to subway transfers at a couple of locations. Can't do that with a token
4) Then, there are the HEET's (hign entry exit turnstile). A newer high tech version of the "iron maiden". I rarely used an iron maiden, wondering if I would get trapped. Once I lost a token in one. I walked a block to the full time fare control. In their last years, the T.A. had them all chained shut. Probably were problematic.
I haven't bought one token since Metrocard became system wide. I'll probably buy two before they bite the dust since I'm a token and farecard collector. I just want to see when I give the agent the token and 50 cents and see what kind of single ride Metrocard I'll get. As far as Metrocard goes, except for the occasional "swipe again at this turnstile", I've never had any problems with a Metrocard.
In closing, magnetic stripe farecards have been around for a while and are doing well in other cities. It's just time for New York City to join the party !
Bill "Newkirk"
Your reactionism is filled with scads of contradictions and blatant hypocrisy.
typewriter ??? man youre old !
not old enought to drink but old enough to drive
Hmm, tradition.
Let's look at a bunch of wonderful traditions we've had through the years:
Women wearing chadors, abayas, burkhas, [INSERT VEIL HERE]
corsets
Footbinding
Female "circumcision"
slavery
human sacrifice
Divine right of kings
leeches, bloodletting and other forms of "medicine"
The Inquisition
Geocentric theory
Well actually, male circumcision is not that "wonderful" of a tradition either, and not necessary.
This is the only country in the world that does that for non-religious reasons. If you are Jewish or Muslim, it's a religious ceremony, and to each their own.
But for everyone else, it's just as outdated a practice as footbinding and all the other body altering traditions.
Yes, we lost our tokens in Chicago four years ago. It is even hard to remember their use anymore.
I use the 30 Day CTA pass for $75 - that is $2.50 a day - what a bargain!
Jim K.
Chicago
As for the issue of tokens vs. MetroCards, there are ups and downs. MetroCards can break, tear, rip, be scratched, etc. and won't work. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a device to break a token, even a truck running one over won't hurt it. On the other hand, tokens are coins, which add to the incessant amount of change in my pocket, are hard to pick out from everything else especially pennies and gold dollars, and you need one for each ride. MetroCards require only one card that you can use for a long time, but transfers don't always work in a predictable fashion and there are so many different types all with the same look (really stupid) so you can't tell a funpass from a monthly express to a regular pay-per-ride. And there's the infamous "Please Swipe Again" and "Card Expired" with money left on it, gone to waste. Also MC's are easier to lose than tokens. I personally use MetroCard simply because I'm used to it, since I use my student pass everyday at least twice. And MetroCards can be better in case like, the trains are backed up and you can go get the bus or walk or with unlimiteds you can cross-transfer between subways at places you could not otherwise. Overall I think they're about even; if MC's brought about opening up of all the closed exits and mezzaines of stations with HEET's I would like them more but since they don't I don't. They both serve their purpose. You can't buy a card with $1.50 on it, and single-rides don't transfer at all. I am going to miss tokens, but I will miss the Redbirds and the Sneidker el structure much more.
hey what are you smokeing ?
Q express has mostly R40m
Wanna ride the slants ride my home line The N on the weekdays !
But transfers with tokens do work in a predictable fashion:
Bus-Subway transfer: NEVER ALLOWED
"Card Expired" with money left on it, gone to waste
No, you can trade the value to another card using an agent or vending machine.
Bus-Subway transfer: NEVER ALLOWED
But giving people the illusion that transfers exist when they don't or don't exist when they do or they do but don't work or may expire after time's up is even more annoying than not having transfer in the first place.
There are very few exceptions. But then, why would anyone transfer from the M27 to the M50 unless one wanted to get a free return trip?
Some transfers are a lot more complicated. I can take the 3rd Ave bus uptown and return downtown on the 2nd Ave bus for one fare. If I return on the Lex bus, it costs me a 2nd fare.
Admittedly, a round trip is supposed to be 2 fares, so I can't complain that I get a free bonus by returning on the 2nd Ave bus. But here's another one. I can't transfer for free from an M14 that goes Ave C to Chelsea to another M14 that goes Ave A to Abingdon Square. This is a legit transfer need, but not allowed because both are M14s.
Other tricky transfer rules involve the free 2nd subway trip you're allowed to take when you re-enter at Lex/60th or similar stations. Again, a free bonus, not an entitlement.
None of these transfer rules are a reason not to use Metrocards, of course.
You can't transfer between directions on the:
M1, M2, M3 and M4
M101, M102 and M103, probably also the M98 but I'm not sure
Bx1 and Bx2
You can't transfer at all between two buses on the same route or:
M27 and M50
M31 and M57
M30 and M72
M96 and M106
Bx40 and Bx42
Q25 and Q34
Triple transfers are:
Any trip where the first or last, and the middle bus is on the Long Island Bus system.
Any trip starting or ending on the Q79 or the Bx29 (there are probably others).
A trip from the subway or bus in lower Manhattan, to the SIR or Victory Blvd buses, to a bus that doesn't run to the ferry.
From the S60 to the S53 to a third bus or subway or back.
The Metrocard subway transfer eat up the one transfer on the card. They are allowed at Lexington Avenue/63rd Street (F) to 59th Street/Lexington Avenue (4,5,6,N,R,W), 23rd Street-Ely Avenue/Court Square (E,G,V) to 45rd Road-Courthouse Square (7) and from 51st Street (6) to the Third Avenue end of Lexington Avenue/53rd Street (E,V), but not back.
When the M10 was first split into the M10 and M20, a triple transfer was created. Is that still available?
I still think the entire transfer period should be replaced with a two-hour unlimited use period, especially now that the Fun Pass is too expensive to be of any use.
Either block tickets for everyone or free walk-ins at the iron maidens.
1SF9
Buying tokens today-- to keep.
: )
It sure is better than carrying around a sack of tokens. I have a token I purchased years ago with the $1.50 fare. I'm saving it as a "souvenir".
Besides, the B has been a weekday-only line since 2001. As has the V. And what about the new W?
2. It's DeKalb Tower, not Pacific.
3. People who don't have gap sheets in front of them are in no position to comment as to which train should go first.
David
DeKalb also controls the Brighton to Church Ave as well as the Franklin shuttle.
Pacific St is a satellite (if even that)
In fact, Pacific Street has a relay room on the mezzanine (I was not referring to the dispatcher's office N/E N/B). So its the "if even that" part of my previous statement.
I didn't include DeKalb to Church because the original post didn't involve the Q line.
While I have not been on a 2 with updated automated announcements, my guess is if the TA is smart, they will leave in the PATH announcement because the PATH will return some day rather soon. Also, it has not been nearly two years since 9/11. Finally, the R142 announcements should be made to be more easily changed, but 9/11 was totally unexpected. Can't hold the TA to too high a standard.
Such true gospel!! :)
For those who have never heard of it, it is between Fort Washington Avenue, Haven Avenue, West 173rd Street and West 176th Street.
Or, just use it on a bus (+50¢)
at my station this morning, only ONE clerk was on duty inside the two-clerk booth, at the HIEGHT of the rush, a LONG line
Of idiots no doubt. I find it highly unlikely that they all needed to buy a $3 Metrocard with a $20 bill.
"I can't break a Twenty."
Haven't you ever heard of people running out of change? Why is the clerk or the MTA faulted for your (and obviously those of others) failure to provide smaller bills? Or pay with a credit card.
A better question is why do you wait until your card is out of money to refill it. You would not leave your house without money. Why not have money on your card at all times?
Why should the riding public have to pay for more token booth clerks because you were not prepared with proper fare?
Try having to take a bus to the train every morning. You make sure you have enough fares to get you where you need to go.
"as a sidenote, at my station this morning, only ONE clerk was on duty inside the two-clerk booth, at the HIEGHT of the rush, a LONG line, and when I gave the clerk a $20 (which is all I had) he looked at me as though he were in a stupor and muttered, "I can't break a Twenty." Thanks MTA, you are really showing just how much you care for your customers(and they have the AUDACITY to raise the fare??)"
Who's the idot who waits to rush hour to refill his metrocard. I think it's you. It's like the old adage if you build more lanes on the highway you just attract more cars. If the MTA opened more token booth during rush hour you would just be encouring more people to wait to the last minute to buy there fare. The lines would still remain.
Part of the reason the fare is going up to $2 is the anti-change activist which prevented the MTA to close additional booths a few years back.
Among other things:
1. Second Avenue study. How much did it cost to hire an outside firm to do the study as opposed to doing as much as possible in house?
2. Various in house projects that had been logged as expenditures to outside firms.
These come from a Times article for which I no loner have the date.
Look at other TA projects where a contractor sucked funds and didn't do the work or has taken a good deal of time. Howard Beach -- the GO has been running now for at least 6 months that I can remember. And last time I checked that GO was for rebuilding the platforms" (If it has been added to or additional GOs issued please correct me here). It seems like the PA AirTrain station itself was built in less time and the GO is STILL not done.
The rebuilding of the barn at E180 St went through severL contractors.
Yeah they got fined and not paid for the work not done or however it works (exactly I don't know) but they did they something out of it. And some of it came out of your pockets.
If you make two trips a day using a token, you should have only 42 token to use up (Mon to Fri travel, 60 if you include weekends) before the token slots are sealed. So how many you have left today?
They will never be worth more than they are now.
And this is a pic of the notice.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/PDRM3025.jpg
You (and others) have a month to find your old tokens hidden in your jackets, top drawers and cookie jars and either use them or cash in the value onto a metrocard. If you hold on to them past May 5th, you're still going to hold on to them. Booths will not accept them.
I know, you're not complaining for yourself. You're speaking up for those other people. I've been writing this all thru this thread for all those other people to read.
From your post, it would seem that you might have a bigger gripe with your local school system.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Others can go into more specific detail.
-Stef
Back then also, don't forget the signage was terrible. It was rare to have a train signed correctly on all parts of the train. This could hvae been a "M" or "MM".
A few "KK" did go to Metropolitan I think at the end of the AM and beginning of PM rush. They would have been meet and right to sign these as "MM".
wayne
wayne
wayne
Also, what are those white circle things on the sides of the R46s?
wayne
til next time
Looks different to me, but what do I know?
If you have an unlimited metro card (or are willing to waste some $$) you can make it essentially covered by entering the 1/2/3 station and exiting at the north-eastern most stairway (which I believe is at the SE corner of 34/7. Dash across 34th and into Macy's and head east -- you can come out at 34/6 and duck into the subway there. Depending on where you enter, you may be able to make it over to PATH without swiping again, but I don't recall.
CG
21 NYCRR 1050.7 (j)
Read the whole thing at http://www.tmk.com/nycrr.
APRIL 13- TOKENS NO LONGER SOLD.
Let's REJOICE AND CELEBRATE (by way of purchasing and storing)
NYC SUBWAY TOKENS over these next (AND FINAL) TEN DAYS OF TOKENS!!
1SF9
Token = Subway.
Take Pride,
Brian
After May 4th there will undoubtly be people who will swear they never saw any announcements.
---Brian
I guess nobody really ever takes a single ride anyway, but...?
Elias
I assume riders wishing to purchase a single fare would be directed to a vending machine.
Out of towners certainly do. They visit someone and get driven in one direction but not another. Or they walk one way, but take the subway back because they're tired. Or they think they need to take 2 rides, but then a third item comes up, and they have to buy one more fare.
If the changeover is supposed to happen on May 3-4, when exactly
does it happen? At midnight, will all the turnstiles automatically
stop accepting tokens?
Tokens have been such an integral part of the transit scene for
so many years it would be a shame if nothing was done to
commemorate the passing.
Good idea, Jeff.. I'd tape something like that! :)
I think you need to take something for your extreme foaming. Or maybe you should come over to the Strappies board. They might go for something like that.
Tokens have been basically dead for years, it is just a lot of people refuse to accept it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't plan to be at at subway station just to deposit a token at 11:59:59 PM.
Now I can see why people think we are crazy.
I read that they never even installed turnstiles in the City Hall station.
It would have to be Brooklyn Bridge.
I should have said Brooklyn Bridge. Thanks Allan.
Neither do I... it's way past my bedtime :-) But our presence isn't a prerequisite for someone else to do it. I've had my share of transit "firsts" and "lasts", including being a passenger on the last operating streetcar in Barcelona (1972 fan trip) and the first revenue passenger to pay their fare at a new Metro station (Joanic) in Barcelona in 1973, so I understand the enthusiasm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This week, since the TA started selling only two tokens at a time you would think you would see an immediate drop in volumn N-O-T.
Guess folks have a lot of them to use up, or they are going back to the Station at coffee breaks & lunch to stock up ... well maybe next week they start running out of them.
Having a last token ceremony is no more foaming than riding the
last train on the Myrtle El or the last streetcar in Brooklyn.
It represents the passing of a long and significant era in
public transportation and culture.
Peace,
ANDEE
---Brian
No matter how you word it, it's a nightmare for all involved.
Perhaps the MTA could change perceptions by giving the T/O a decal to be affixed below the cab window. (It works for the Air Force). :-)
Tom
Of course TA employees know the proper way of stopping the train in such incidents (and its NOT by RADIO!), I hope.
I took the x29 express bus home last night, and was wondering what was going on at Church Avenue. Seems like the F train was terminating at Church, and everyone was pouring out onto the street from the exits.
Look at how these two articles refer to the Avenue I station:
Daily News Train kills blind man after platform slip
"the Avenue I station in Ocean Parkway"
Is Ocean Parkway now considered a neighborhood?
WNBC Blind Man Run Over By Subway After Fall Onto Tracks
"the Avenue I station on Ocean Parkway"
Did they move the station?
--Mark
But why is it that when people who have all five senses are run over by trains, they are "Darwin Award Winners?" I guess it's because when a person isn't physically disabled, it's OK to make fun.
But think about this the next time you want to make fun of somebody who's a 12-9: A physically disabled person is less fit as far as natural selection is concerned than someone who is simply careless or stupid.
Do you accept the token and 50 cents and hand out a single ride Metrocard or are customers informed to go to Jay St. to redeem them ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The TA might give them pre-encoded MCs. Non of them want them because they'll have to be treated just like money, so you have the issue of who stole that one MC.
People failed to buy tokens in advance.
Lines were long with people waiting to buy tokens on day one.
Change booth became token booth.
People jumped turnstyles or entered slam gates.
People did not like the idea of extra coins in their pockets.
History is repeating itself, except Fare Cards have been around MUCH longer.
Bye-Bye tokens, you are now part of the era as part of the "good-old-days".
Lines were long with people waiting to buy Metrocards on day one.
Token booth became change booth.
People jumped turnstyles or entered service gates.
People did not like the idea of plastic cards in their pockets.
History is repeating itself again!
The token booth became the MetroCard booth
People had extra money being deducted from Pay-Per-Ride cards (actually, this has been a problem that is only now being looked into).
People tried to jump the turnstile. Instead, the NYPD Transit bureau had an artic at the ready, and it was full of farbeats.
"People did not like the idea of plastic cards in their pockets." People also accidentally bent their 30-Day MetroCards on Day Two, causing the card to become so damaged that they LOST the remaining 28 days.
This is history repeating itself, only on a grander scale. Can May 4 come any sooner (actually, May 5 will be the day of FUN, and January 1, when tokens are no longer accepted anywhere).
It has been called the station booth for quite some time.
And the tokens were so nearly dime-sized that some people had to fumble to pick out a token from their change. Some people (my dad, for example) bought little token holders to keep them separate.
I feel that I was more upset with the fact that the fare was jumping from 10 cents to 15 cents. People in general were just as upset as they were five years earlier when the fare went from a nickel to a dime.
I did not mind the increase to a dime because I was young enough that my parents were still paying my way.
By the time the 15 cent (token) fare started, I was paying my own way, and I was a very unhappy traveler.
So, the shrine fits perfectly on the crown jewel of all subway lines, the Brighton Line and it's little sister, the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
However - at Bank, the 1992 stock's recorded announcement said "Change here for the Northern, District and Circle Lines, the Docklands Light Railway, and Network Southeast services" Huh? The only line that "Network Southeast services" could mean, at Bank, is the Waterloo & City Line, which has been part of the Underground for the last nine years. And the 1992 stock was delivered about the same time, so those announcements have probably *never* been right!
At least the "Please, No Windstorming" sticker found on an R-40 Slant in 2001 was polite, funny, and wasn't covering any other sticker. I also still don't exactly "get" what that sticker means...
---Brian
#3 West End Jeff
I guess Windstorming is holding on to a pole in such a storm. Maybe some southwestern sport? :-P
Also I have seen it to mean sort of travelling quickly... "He windstormed through the New York City Subway in search of Redbirds."
Wow, I haven't seen that. I can't believe they'd go that far.
Peace.
ANDEE
---Brian
I obtained it back in the mid 70's. I think I brought it from Bill "Newkirk" at an ERA meeting (who said he was selling it down on Canal Street near Chinatown)
It's still in the orginal blue box sitting on a pad of cotton. I never wore it.
Anyone else have one?
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
Heh, that wasn't me. Not only I don't recall selling a belt buckle at an ERA meeting, but I've never sold anything on Canal St. Things haven't gotten that bad yet !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
9323 was also missing its bulkhead signs, but since it doesn't need them, I'm not sure it means anything.
aw shit !
we got slants and da birds and the rest of historical fllet rotting away !
that just aint right !
Westchester and 239 Yard wash 142s without any problems that I know of.
The operator kept his finger on the bell (Boston version of NYC's buzzer) while stopping as a signal to the guard (conductor) to not open the doors.
There was no permission sought or granted to back up; the guard came on the PA and told the passengers to stand-by, as we had to back up a bit.
The operator honked his horn three times, and backed up. The guard was on the PA with "come back a little more... that's good!"
The guard opened, closed, and we were on our way.
Oh, did I mention? The operator had someone else in the cab and was chatting at the time of the overshoot.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe it was Salaamallah, he hasn't posted here lately.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is considered unpatriotic to speak of the disappeared. :-(
Tom
So? Many systems including SEPTA do not require T/O's to get backup permission if the move if limited to within a single block.
The conductor would not open the doors.
After a delay of about a minute the dispatcher instructed the crew to key out the passengers through the front door.
The dispatcher then instructed then announced that the train was out of service.
The dispatcher then instructed the crew that the train should go back into normal service at Rector.
The train departed without taking on any passengers.
The dispatcher then announced that the next train was just leaving Chambers St.
That train arrived in a few minutes and did not overshoot the mark.
The situation was exacerbated because ferry operations had been suspended for over an hour because of a tanker fire in the harbor. The first boat out of St George met this train. They used the Barberi, which while not filled, was definitely not empty. The platform at South Ferry was packed.
I guess that is how NYCT takes care of things. Public be damned. :-)
If the T/O backs up the train and is caught, he will be fired - no excuses.
In all likelihood, the T/O was instructed to NOT go into service at Rector by Control, but, instead to pick up a TSS at Times Sq for a fitness for duty check.
Transit was covering its collective butt by doing things as you described.
Sounds more like safety first.
Tom
Actually it was closer to safety last.
I had mentioned that there had been a disruption in ferry service. The crowding at St George was so greate that they had to open the Barberi to prevent a dangerous overcrowding in the waiting room. That boat can handle 6,000 people safely; the St George waiting room can't. The boat had to wait an additional 20 minutes before the Coast Guard ropened the harbor. Boats usually wait only 5 minutes before departing.
The number of disembarking people overwhelmed the South Ferry Station, at 4:30 on a Friday. They completely filled the platform. There was also a fair amount of passengers on the arriving train, trying to get an early start for the weekend. Movement was very restricted on the platform. Forcing the train's passengers to exit from the front door helped matters because they interfered with a minimum of waiting passengers on the platform.
They could have had passengers enter the train from the front door after the train's passengers had been offloaded. There were no trains behind. Instead, they chose to let the train proceed to Rector and and not remove any passengers from the overcrowded South Ferry platform.
The platform was really packed by the time the following train arrived. More people had entered from the office buildings - trying to get an early start uptown for the weekend. They had a lot of trouble emptying the train because the new entrance/exit is at the extreme front end. This maximizes the amount of walking for exiting passengers to reach the street. It maximizes the number of two-way flow problems.
Of course, the TA could have backed the train up less than a foot, like they did in Boston. The following train wasn't within a mile of South Ferry at that time. They also had sufficient time to partially empty the South Ferry platform through doors that were supervised by the C/R and the T/O.
Instead, the TA chose to create an unsafe loading condition on the platform. At least the ferry people had the good sense to open up additional room, when their normal waiting area became dangerously overcrowded. They are governed by local fire and occupancy laws. The TA is specifically exempt from all local health and safety laws. If they were not then the dispatcher, who was present in the station might have been served a summons for overcrowding.
You have a good point. Sounds also like a good argument for renovating South Ferry to handle people more safely.
Which reminds me - weren't you going to do your part by writing to MTA? Would you like mail you some paper and a postage stamp?
Then there should have been police called to handle the crowds and prevent overcrowding of the station. Those eyes and ears in the token booth that we keep hearing about which are so essential to customer safety should have taken action.
Tom
So, it should take a squad of cops from the 1st Precinct to back up a train 12 inches. :-)
Those eyes and ears in the token booth that we keep hearing about which are so essential to customer safety should have taken action.
Actually, the token booth does not have a view of the station platform. The dispatcher does. The crowded platform obsucred her vew of the train. She had to stand up to get a decent view of the train. :-)
BTW, safety is not a high concern. The current configuration of South Ferry violates NYC building codes. The former configuration also violated building codes (but not those in forced when the station was built). The violation constitutes a danger to public safety, whose exact nature I will not discuss in a public forum for obvious security reasons. It's not as if the station were so busy that the TA could not rectify the problem. The station had been closed for one year. They reconfigured the station during that time. The reopened station's failure to comply with the building code is even more blatant than the old station.
My guess is that half of all stations would be padlocked, if the Building and Fire Departments made inspections of all the subway stations. The don't because the TA is exempted from all local building , health and fire codes. I'd have some respect for the TA, if their station rebuilding program redressed the more obvious safety hazards. Very few have. The most obvious one that has, 72nd St, was purely coincidental.
Coincidental? I don't think the new wider staircases were coincidental.
However, the ultra-narrow platforms there are still as ultra-narrow as they were before the rehab began, and the new staircases on the NB platform are at the far north end (although that will be rectified when the old stationhouse reopens).
The reason you don't discuss them is that you don't know what they are, and therefore cannot dicuss them.
Compare the number of exits and width of stairways at one of the large theaters at Lincoln Center, each of which holds roughly 3000 people, with certain subway stations whose exit capacity is very skimpy, but which could disgorge 2 trains of 1500 people each in a very short period of time.
I'll send you an email.
Then *what* *does* he do?
There paying him do do something!
And a conductor is always able to call in an unsafe condition!
Elias
NYCT passengers have been injured and killed in the past due to the alcohol-induced impairment of operating personnel.
If NYCT passengers are ever again injured for that reason, NYCT had better be able to prove that it has done everything in its power to prevent alcohol or drugs from being a factor in the operation of trains. Otherwise they are liable for not just compensatory but also punitive damages for reckless conduct.
Therefore, as Bill from Maspeth points out, the minute a T/O does something that might ever so possibly be the result of impairment, that T/O is completely off duty until he can be tested.
So, short of them having a spare T/O at South Ferry, I don't really see what they could have done other than take the train out of service right there.
Once again, you can thank Robert Ray for a huge amount of inconvenience and time delay for the riding public.
To give a contra-example: All evidence suggests that the Lex line is saturated at rush hour. Are there any lines which aren't?
W Bridge has max 18 trains per hour, and that's just for 2 hours per day.
Rutgers Tunnel has max 15 tph.
63rd St tunnel has max 15 tph. More could feed in from the QB local tracks, not from the express.
1/9 tracks max 20 tph, and rarely over 15
Manhattan Bridge will have only 40 tph on 2 tracks after 2/2004.
L train runs max 15 tph. Might need some signal changes at 8th Ave to run more.
Is there a way to efficiently "put in" trains in Manhattan only for the Brooklyn direction?
For example: You have shown in your post that more F trains can run through the Rutgers tunnel (and when they fix Bergen interlocking MTA can do more with them), but those extra F trains have to either be turned somewhere in Manhattan or find their way to a yard, because they cannot continue onto the saturated Queens Blvd. line.
Unless, of course, you just added a lot more V service, and extended those V trains into Brooklyn via either the Manny B (you can do that in February 2004) or the Rutgers tunnel.
Yes, many more trains could be sent to Brooklyn if they were needed.
1. As you mention, just extend V trains.
2. Send V trains to Culver, thus allowing some F trains to go express on 6th Ave (this switch exists at 6th and 53rd), and thus go over the MB.
3. Add more Concourse trains of either type. CPW and the 6th Ave express track are not maxed out.
4. The trains that are contemplated for turning at Whitehall St (Ws, and probably also some Rs) could be extended to Brooklyn, as could more Nassau St trains.
5. Some E trains could be sent through the Cranberry Tunnel.
Many of the river crossings and trunk lines really still have additional capacity if future traffic grows. The real constraints are the Lex and the Queens Blvd line.
True. But if there were a serious need for more trains on the 2 and 3, they would stop running 5s from Flatbush. If the hordes can cross the platform at W 96th and E 125th, they can do it at Frnaklin if it ever becomes necessary.
In any case, two thirds of the people on the Flatbush line see a 2 before a 5 anyway, so the best move for them is to take the 2 to Franklin and wait for a 4 or 5, whichever comes first.
Arti
All this is hypothetical, of course. Only needed to provide more 2.3 service.
5s could be turned at Utica or New Lots. Some 3s could go to Flatbush to replace 5s that don't go there.
Arti
The signal capacity is 30 after the safety modifications, if nothing else gets in the way. It was more before, can could be again under CBTC but you still have problems with dwell time and the most jammed station, and turn around time at the terminals.
The QB express is up to its signal capacity (30). It doesn't have a terminal problem because its routes merge from and diverge to different terminals.
The QB local is constrained by terminal capacity at 71st Street. I've put in a suggestion for an additional local terminal using the Winfield Spur, which would allow more local trains and perhaps a re-extension of the G to Roosevelt.
The Lex Express is almost up to its terminal capacity and is contrained by dwell time at peak stations, expecially Grand Central. It has 26 tph instead of 30. They are trying to come up with modifications to get to 30.
The Lex Local is contrainted by terminal capacity -- the back up to empty the trains at Brooklyn Bridge.
The 1/9 local is also constrained at the terminal, with the half-platform getting the blame for slowing things down. The new South Ferry Terminal would help that.
The 2/3 are constrained by the need to merge with both each other and the 5 for a very short stretch at the interlocking east of Franklin. They are also constrained, along with the #5, by terminal slowdowns at Flatbush and Nostrand. There are studies around to try to solve that.
I believe that there is a limit to the number of trains you could turn at WTC on the E, and 8th Avenue on the L. I don't think you could get 24 tph there, though perhaps one could add a few more. After all, they manage to turn more than that on the Flushing line. Perhaps those terminals need to be modified somehow.
The Flushing Line is at or near capacity.
Capacity problems at the core limit trains per hour on the branches. One could run more trains on the Jerome Avenue line, for example, by they'd get jammed up in Manhattan.
Plenty of room on the J/M/Z however. With multiple terminals, it could probably handle close to 30 tph rather than just 18.
The Manhattan Bridge fix will add plenty of potential capacity on the Broadway BMT and 6th Avenue line to/from Brooklyn, and there is loads of capacity on the BMT southern division to feed it. More trains than planned could turn at 57th or be sent up Central Park West.
One could argue that more frequent train upline would result in less crowded trains thus shorter dwell times at busy stations
This theory hold weight, but in practice it may not work
Signal systems constrain capacity only marginally. The principal constraints on capacity are train operating characteristics: acceleration and braking rates as well as train length and station dwell time. For NYCT rolling stock and a system average of 30 seconds dwell time, this places capacity in the 40-42 tph range. Systems which have similar operating characteristcs operate in this range using conventional block systems such as those currently used by NYCT.
It was more before, can could be again under CBTC
One additional factor that affects capacity is the signal system reaction time: the delay between when a section of track is clear until the following train responds. It is assumed that cab based signals, including the cab based signals employed by CBTC, would reduce this time from 5 seconds to around 3 seconds. The projected capacity under reduced signal reaction time becomes 45-47 tph.
you still have problems with dwell time and the most jammed station
One major dwell time problem is that current car design encourages passengers to stand in doorways. Older equipment design discouraged passengers from standing in the doorways.
The QB local is constrained by terminal capacity at 71st Street.
NYCT has created a terminal capactiy problem at all relay terminals, where none existed because of work rule changes. The terminal at 71st Ave has two separate crossover tracks making its capacity in excess of 40 tph.
I've put in a suggestion for an additional local terminal using the Winfield Spur, which would allow more local trains and perhaps a re-extension of the G to Roosevelt.
The easiest way to address the self-inflicted capacity problem at relay terminals would be to add 2 or three T/O's to aid in turning trains. This would eliminate the need to "fumigate" cars before a relay. This operation takes about 4 minutes, effectively limiting capacity to 15 tph.
A turnstile count check would reveal that the most heavily used local stations are Woodhaven, 63rd Drive and 67th Ave. Building expensive terminal facilities to short turn locals and avoid these stations would not be an effective solution.
Should one really want a mega-million solution, then building a local terminal on the lower level of 75th Ave should be considered. :-)
The Lex Express is almost up to its terminal capacity
Short turning downtown expresses at Bowling Green would add an additional downtown terminal and avoid the problems with the Rodgers Junction in Brooklyn. There is the "fumigation" problem mentioned above. However, there is no work rule reason for such a policy going round the inner loop. One could modify rolling stock to permit the inner loop station to be used, if a no capital cost solution is not acceptable.
...contrained by dwell time at peak stations, expecially Grand Central
Dwell time at Grand Central averages 60 seconds with 25 tph. This shows that 30-32 tph operation is still feasible.
They are trying to come up with modifications to get to 30.
One untried modification is to run trains at 2 minute intervals during the rush hour period. :-)
The Lex Local is contrainted by terminal capacity -- the back up to empty the trains at Brooklyn Bridge.
Loop topology does not constrain capacity. Pre 9/11 paranoia by a former mayor required the TA to "fumigate" trains before entering the City Hall loop. Placing a security guard in the City Hall station would achieve the same security benefit and increase local capacity to the 40-42 tph range.
The Lex Ave Local is contrained by the topology of the E 177th St terminal. There are no-cost solutions around this that could be used to add more trains to Manhattan service.
The 1/9 local is also constrained at the terminal, with the half-platform getting the blame for slowing things down.
The half length terminal at South Ferry would be a capacity constraint, if they made two stops. They don't, only the front half detrains.
The 2/3 are constrained by the need to merge with both each other
Merges should not affect capacity, if schedules are properly drawn and maintained. This also holds for full grade crossings like the one north of 135th St.
and the 5 for a very short stretch at the interlocking east of Franklin. They are also constrained, along with the #5, by terminal slowdowns at Flatbush and Nostrand. There are studies around to try to solve that.
One could alwyas use the routing that worked 50 year ago that did not send 5 trains down Nostrand Ave. Another solution has been proposed. Assuming a nominal 30 tph on both the local and express tracks: route 20 tph of the locals down Nostrand to Flatbush; route 10 tph of the locals to terminate at Utica, essentiall serving only 2 stations. Route 20 tph of the expresses to New Lots and terminate 20 tph (10 each of expresses and locals) at Utica. This eliminates the need for locals and expresses to share the same track at the Rodgers Junction.
I believe that there is a limit to the number of trains you could turn at WTC on the E, and 8th Avenue on the L. I don't think you could get 24 tph there, though perhaps one could add a few more.
The capacity limit for non-loop terminals is set by the amount of time the interlocking is occupied. This is determined by: how long it takes a train to clear the interlocking; how long it takes the tower to change the switch and how long it takes the switch to change once it receives a command from the tower. NYCT has been replacing the original electro-pneumatic switches with slower acting all-electric switches. The actuation time difference does not completely explain the difference between the current 15 tph and the previous 24 tph service levels.
After all, they manage to turn more than that on the Flushing line. Perhaps those terminals need to be modified somehow.
The Times Sq terminal (as opposed to the Main St Terminal) has tail tracks. This means that the trains can move faster over the interlocking because they do not have to slow down for a bumper.
Tail tracks do not guarantee greater capacity by themselves. It is possible to design a terminal with tail tracks that has reduced capacity by mislocating the interlocking. Jamaica Center is an example of such capacity reducing design. :-)
The Flushing Line is at or near capacity.
The Flushing Line used to operate 36 tph; they currently operate 28 tph.
One could run more trains on the Jerome Avenue line, for example, by they'd get jammed up in Manhattan.
We know that fewer trains get jammed in Manhattan. The TA has not tried running more express trains on the Lex. There is ample theoretical and practical experience to suggest that this would not be the case.
Plenty of room on the J/M/Z however. With multiple terminals, it could probably handle close to 30 tph rather than just 18.
One result of the the TA is eliminating one of the terminals will be to create a capacity problem should they ever want to run 30 tph.
The Manhattan Bridge fix will add plenty of potential capacity on the Broadway BMT and 6th Avenue line to/from Brooklyn, and there is loads of capacity on the BMT southern division to feed it. More trains than planned could turn at 57th or be sent up Central Park West.
The entire 1967 Manhattan Bridge reroute presented the possibility of sending 90 tph from the BMT Southern Division to midtown. This was part of the BOT's SAS plan. An additional 90 tph would exhaust the terminal facilities in midtown and uptown Manhattan. The suggestion had been made that a temporary terminal be built on 2nd Ave to handle the new volume before the rest of the line was complete.
The TA had the chance to build additional midtown terminal facilities, when the 63rd St tunnel was built. They didn't.
The second statement is true; the first is false. Signaling can have a major effect on train line capacity.
"One additional factor that affects capacity is the signal system reaction time: the delay between when a section of track is clear until the following train responds. It is assumed that cab based signals, including the cab based signals employed by CBTC, would reduce this time from 5 seconds to around 3 seconds." The projected capacity under reduced signal reaction time becomes 45-47 tph.
"One major dwell time problem is that current car design encourages passengers to stand in doorways. Older equipment design discouraged passengers from standing in the doorways."
The older equipment also resulted in more dragging injuries and deaths. In a lawsuit-ruled nation, this is significant.
There is a second effect: dynamic block signaling (such as CBTC) eliminates the fixed distances between trains represented by the current system. As train equipment and capability changes, distances between trains can change, too. AThoe distances can even change within a line (longer distances for areas where braking is problematic, shorter distances for areas where braking conditions are excellent. These can be changed "on the fly," which is impossible to accomplish with fixed signal blocks.
If CBTC is fully exploited, a 30 tph line can become a 40 tph line; more importantly, it can also become a 20 tph line when that is warranted and signalling rules can be changed at any time with the need, on the fly.
"For NYCT rolling stock and a system average of 30 seconds dwell time, this places capacity in the 40-42 tph range. Systems which have similar operating characteristcs operate in this range using conventional block systems such as those currently used by NYCT"
Only in countries which do not allow lawsuits against transit authorities the way they can happen here.
"The capacity limit for non-loop terminals is set by the amount of time the interlocking is occupied. This is determined by: how long it takes a train to clear the interlocking; how long it takes the tower to change the switch and how long it takes the switch to change once it receives a command from the tower. NYCT has been replacing the original electro-pneumatic switches with slower acting all-electric switches."
This is one area where I might agree with you. Switches should be faster acting.
One could run more trains on the Jerome Avenue line, for example, by they'd get jammed up in Manhattan.
"We know that fewer trains get jammed in Manhattan."
You are confabulating here. You know that this is not true, and you say it anyway. That is dishonest.
"The TA has not tried running more express trains on the Lex. There is ample theoretical and practical experience to suggest that this would not be the case."
False statement.
The design features that encourage passengers to stand in doorways does not affect door closing and door closed detection system. Your objection is a non-sequitor.
Signaling can have a major effect on train line capacity.
Only if it is poorly designed. NYCT's block system is not poorly designed.
There is a second effect: dynamic block signaling (such as CBTC) eliminates the fixed distances between trains represented by the current system.
NYCT blocks are not fixed length. They vary from 100 feet to 1500 feet. They are shorter where trains are more likely to run closer together - namely within stations and their approaches. The difference is not between a dynamic and fixed length block system. The difference is between a dynamic and a varible length block system. The benefits in this case are marginal.
As train equipment and capability changes, distances between trains can change, too.
NYCT has had a propensity for specifiying equipment with poorer braking capabilities. Simply ordering equipment that met past braking performance would have been sufficient and would have saved lives.
AAThoe distances can even change within a line (longer distances for areas where braking is problematic, shorter distances for areas where braking conditions are excellent.
NYCT's current block system provides grade timers where braking conditions are less than excellent.
If CBTC is fully exploited, a 30 tph line can become a 40 tph line; more importantly, it can also become a 20 tph line when that is warranted and signalling rules can be changed at any time with the need, on the fly.
Suppose CBTC could increase capacity from 30 to 40 tph. Where should it be implemented first, on a trunk that could might need greater capacity or on a branch that operates at less than 20 tph? One would think that the money should be spent on the truck to achieve any benefits as quickly as possible. NYCT's implementation plan is to start at the branches and work towards the trunk lines. It's not the fault of NYCT's planners. It's the nature of CBTC.
"The TA has not tried running more express trains on the Lex. There is ample theoretical and practical experience to suggest that this would not be the case."
False statement.
The number of people on a waiting on a platform is a Poisson random varaible with mean aT, where a is a constant for a particular location and time of day and T is the headway. The average number of people waiting on the platform for 30 tph operation would be 120a, whereas the average number of people waiting on the platform for 25 tph operation would be 144a. To provide for any level of reliable service one would schedule headways so that the appropriate number of standard deviations were added to the average dwell time (which is proportional to the number of people waiting on the platform) and braking and acceleration times.
The problem is that the variance and mean are identical for a Poisson random variable. Suppose we were working at 2 standard deviations beyond the mean for a reliability of 95%. Now suppose we increased headways by 20%. The mean would increase by 20% and the standard deviation would increase by 9.5%. Now, instead of the headway being 2 standard deviations in excess the mean; it would be only 1.83 in excess of the mean. Reliability would be reduced from 95% to 92.5%.Conversely, reliability is increased by decreasing headways.
I have just shown you why they are not marginal - in this or any other case.
"NYCT's current block system provides grade timers where braking conditions are less than excellent."
A grade timer is an elegant and simple way to handle a fixed situation, but an even better way is to handle it dynamically. Outdoors, for example, CBTC can quickly change a timed track area to unrestricted as operating conditions (example: weather) improve, then back again when operating conditions deteriorate. A grade timer cannot do that.
Grade timers and slide rules are wonderful devices, but the latter has been superseded, and it is time the former leaves us as well (but not until the Transit Museum saves a couple for posterity).
Regarding Express Trains on the Lex: You do present an excellent theoretical explanation, but without accounting for all the variables you need to keep track of. And you still lack any practical experience with this regarding the NYC subways.
As far as I know, this is not a gratuitious statement, if you are speaking in terms of the early 20th century. Demands changes, and now, the MTA is trying to run a very efficient, fast system involving a system with wayside signalling... a system that is still very similar to the standards the IRT used in 1904! If anything, I would think CBTC would help a lot. It's a pity the MTA doesn't think of replacing the current signalling system...
I think you should define what you mean be efficiency and fast. You should then see how well various systems meet your objectives without prejudice to a system's age or lack of sex appeal.
The kinematic principles for signalling were well understood by the IRT in 1904. They were better understood by 1918 and 1932, when most of the present signal systems were installed. CBTC does not provide much advantage over the existing system in terms of increased capacity.
One question is which system can provide the greatest return for the money. CBTC has a problem in this regard for retrofitting an existing system with branch lines over a conventional variable length block system.
What evidence do you have for that contention?
I can see very strong reasons for the distribution being far different from Poisson, because people arrive in batches from connecting trains, railroad trains, and buses.
I have not run any tests to see how well station platform queueing conforms to other queueing problems. I suspect that the number of people passing through a single turstile during an infintesmal duration of time is either 0 or 1 and not more than 1. I also suspect that probability that it is 1 person is proportional to size of the infinitesmal duration. Finally, I suspect that over relatively short time intervals (120 to 150 seconds) that the behavior of one infinitessmal is independent of that of another infinitesmal. These three conditions are all that is necessary to derive a Poisson distribution.
However a poisson distribution for those waiting on a platform is only a sufficient condition to show that incresing headways reduces schedule reliability. The necessary condition does not require the assumption of any particular probability distribution and may be more difficult to challenge.
How well does a period 120 seconds of platform loading predict the the next 24 to 30 seconds? If the next 24 seconds are perfectly predictable, then the variance for a 144 second sample will be the same as for the first 120 seconds. If there is any randomness in the next 24 seconds, then the variance for the 144 second sample will be greater than that for the 120 second sample. If the first 120 seconds and next 24 seconds are statistically independent, then the variance of the 144 second period will equal the variance of the 120 second period and the variance of the additional 24 second period.
So, if I tell you what the turnstile count is for the last 120 seconds, can you tell me what the count will be for the next 24 seconds with perfect accuracy? If you cannot, then the variance for the 144 second period will be greater than for the 120 second period. If the variance is greater, then schedule reliability will be less.
I'm afraid we'll have to assume some distributions and correlation coefficients, if we want hard numbers. :-)
Agreed.
And actually, while I doubt that arrivals on the platform are anywhere near Poisson*, I personally suspect the variance is greater than the mean, not less. So if I'm right, your argument on that point just gets stronger.
* The probability of someone entering a platform in an infinitesimal time span is much higher when a connecting train has just arrived a bit earlier and the associated horde all makes its way at once to the platform. The horde is not spread out by different walking speeds because pretty soon most of the horde is constrained to the speed of the slowest walkers. However, these near-batch arrivals increase the variance.
Thanks
Could you elaborate on this point? I haven't been able to think of much while looking through photos of the car interiors over the years.
What difference do you notice between the interior fixtures on the A/B's and D-types (repeated on the Mutli's) and those of the later types.
That's it!
If one moves to where there is something to hold on to, then one does not block the doors.
This is where you've stopped thinking. Youy see the train, but are oblivious to its passengers. Classic single-mindede railbuff.
If one were to look at today's crowded cars, one would notice that loading density is not uniform. The doorways are crowded and the area between the doors is relatively empty.
OTOH, if one were to look at historical footage of D-types, such as was shown on Ken Burns NYC series on PBS, one would notice the opposite loading density pattern. People avoided the doorways, in favor of the poles and grab bars away from the doors.
The R-44 (with carpeting, no less!) has these nice sort of-almost foyers, which, of course, people like to lean in. The new model cars seem to continue the foyer tradition. The R-68 and R-62 seem to have the upright bars right by the doors, which would tend to encourage congregation there.
Is that what you hoped to convey? If so, then I've some comments. There are three features that I identified here (partition, single, and foyer); the latter of which does not seem to be favorable. But what of the other two? I'm not certain how single doors would aid, although I don't discount that they might. I've just never seen them in action on, say, the Lexington Avenue line. Perhaps the design would combat door-holding, but I'm not sure.
As for the in/out partition (I assume that's what the partition is for), it would seem to depend alot on civility. Should we count on that? I'm not sure. At the very least, those doors would have to be such that they were much larger, enough to fit a wheelchair through, nowadays.
In the end, empirical experiments would be the best way to decide amongst door/doorway types. Has the MTA ever contemplated or done this?
It is quite obvious that, while you profess to care about passenger safety, you are perfectly content to sneer at the TA for not utilizing systems that inherently are prone to causing injuries.
You're being generous to him - which is your privilege.
"Of course, I think that particular placement of uprights wouldn't be ADA compliant, but I'm sure there are other schemes that could be tried."
ADA is important not just for wheelchair access, but also, incidentally, because it allows faster evacuation of trains in emergencies. The MTA has tried different interior arrangements on the new subway cars (recall the R110 trial trains), and passengers had plenty of opportunity to comment on them.
The R142 and R143 are arranged for comfort and safety. They do not use the only acceptable scheme, but every scheme has pluses and minuses.
Huh?
In many stations, ADA has resulted in replacement of a stairway by an elevator, resulting in slower evacuation in case of emergency.
Offhand examples: A/C/E at 14th, Q/N/R/W at 14th.
Did you ever ride A/B's or D-Types during rush hour. Did you ever enter one at Prospect Park after a Sunday double header at Ebbets Field?
I have and survived. So did everyone else who ever did.
Your posts don't support that fully :0) Just kidding
"So did everyone else who ever did."
The fact that they survived does not mean no one was injured.
I totally agree and the same thing can be attributed to buses. Once the bus gets a good amount of passengers, I will often see them cling to the vetical bars that lay at the front part of the bus. Even with announcements the B/O makes, it has little effect and passenger stubborness prevails. If anything, I would think it would be practical to reduce or possible eliminate the bars that exist at the front part of the bus and increase the amount in the latter part of it... All logic.
What's the Winfield spur?
The trains aren't emptied at Brooklyn Bridge. The computer announces that it's the last stop, sometimes the C/R makes a manual announcement to the same effect, the doors close, and the train leaves.
The 1/9 local is also constrained at the terminal, with the half-platform getting the blame for slowing things down. The new South Ferry Terminal would help that.
The constraint is at the other terminal, the typical arrangement with two tracks and bumper blocks, just like WTC. That's why I've been long suggesting that alternate 1/9 trains short-turn at 137th or Dyckman. It's a miracle that they manage to turn 20 tph there in the morning rush.
Depending on how South Ferry is rebuilt, it might become a constraint, but it isn't one now.
Ridership numbers have been posted. Look at them. Think about them. Not all stations place equal demands on service.
(Besides, most people going north of 137th are going to skip-stop stations and have to wait for the right train anyway. Wouldn't they prefer 15 tph over 10 tph?)
I found your postings 396649 and 396806 (Re: South Ferry Loop News) which quoted cordon counts for all IRT lines, hour by hour, as the trains left central Manhattan on a weekday in 1996.
But your posted numbers seemed remarkably low, and I said so in my recent posting "Are Cordon Counts Correct?", to which I have seen no response so far.
Stephen Bauman cites present peak hour Lexington line services of 28-tph express and 21-tph local. But your posted ridership counts showed 18-tph express and 12-tph local, assuming ten-car trains. That's a reduction of 19 trains out of 49, or 39%.
Another surprise was the Flushing line, where your passenger ridership was 16,232 compared with 35,420 reported in the Queens Cordon Count report. That's a reduction of 54%.
I think you will agree that these differences are too large to be random variations, but I am not sure which numbers to believe.
Perhaps you have access to more comprehensive ridership data, that would shed a more objective light on the matter.
This may be a mundane subject, but the counts are done for a reason - presumably to find troublespots and to plan what to do about them.
My numbers come straight out of the NYCT document. I don't vouch for their accuracy, but I haven't seen any other numbers to compare them to.
It's quite possible that there was less service in 1996 than there is now. I take that back -- I know there was less service in 1996 than there is now, but I don't know how much less. Also, keep in mind that the book doesn't report scheduled service; it reports the actual service that happened on the day the count was taken. (I highly doubt there were only two NB 6 trains scheduled between 3 and 4 in the afternoon, but that's what the table shows. There may have been another service disruption between 5 and 6, because the following hour had 21 trains.)
I don't know what to say about the Flushing line. I double checked and the number in the book is, indeed, 16,232. I also checked another source, but it seems to have gotten its numbers from the same NYCT book.
You ask if I have other data. I have annual fare registration counts at each of the 424 station complexes in 2000.
Is there the slightest chance that you could cooperate with David Pirmann to get those numbers posted on this web site? Just a long page of text would be fabulous.
I realize it would be work for you and David (including retyping), but it would be rewarding for many of us here.
Arti
No. Even public agencies are entitled to have internal documents.
OMB publishes subway ridership numbers by station, and bus ridership numbers by route, every month, in Adobe Acrobat format, on the TA intranet. It also publishes annual data.
I'm not sure if this is "confidential," but I would never release something I see inside the agency like that without getting permission, which is generally more hassle than it is worth.
If someone would like to see such data on the site, the best way to get it is for a non-employee to request it from Public Affairs. If it is acceptable for the public to have it, it will be provided. If someone is going to make a request, I suggest annual numbers since one probably won't do it monthly and annual numbers are more representative.
As I said, 2002 ridership was reported as the highest since the the organization of New York City Transit in 1953, though obviously not the highest in the history of the subways. The last time ridreship was higher, there was an additional line on the East Side -- the Third Avenue El.
I was not aware of the NYMTC “hub-bound” data site, which is very interesting.
It shows that the total number of people entering the hub between 8:00 and 9:00 by public transportation is much greater than the number leaving the hub between 17:00 and 18:00. The totals for 2000 were 549,000 entering the hub in the morning peak hour and 405,000 leaving the hub in the evening peak hour. I had wrongly assumed that they would be about equal. The data that you posted applied to outbound traffic, and that is why it is lower than I expected. The Queens Cordon Count report used morning peak hour data, which goes some way towards explaining the difference on the #7 Flushing line.
Your data is more comprehensive than the hub-bound data in that:
1. It gives numbers for each hour from 7 AM to 7 PM.
2. It gives the number of subway cars in addition to the number of passengers.
3. It gives separate numbers for expresses and locals, whereas the hub-bound data lumps together expresses and locals, and all trains crossing Manhattan Bridge.
The hub-bound data may not tell the whole story but it is an excellent source. I am going to suggest adding a link to the NYMTC site to the “Transfer Station” of this site.
This is unsurprising, because it's much more common for people to work late than to arrive early. Also, people sometimes remain in the city after work to shop, socialize, entertain clients, etc.
It's well known in transit circles that the evening rush is spread out over a longer period than the morning rush.
I only quoted a small piece of what the NYCT document contains. It includes counts from all day and night, midnight to midnight, broken down into hours and into fifteen-minute periods. It includes route-by-route counts as well as track-by-track counts. It covers buses as well as subways. It's a big book.
I still can't explain the disparity in counts on the 7. Between 8:00 and 9:00 the official 1996 count, according to NYCT, is only 20,553 (on 22 trains of 11 cars each) -- still a long shot from the number you've seen elsewhere.
But he doesn't have the time or interest to maintain the ridership data himself.
Being retired, I have plenty of time and interest, and would be willing to help but only remotely as I am not a US resident!
My email address is david.fairthorne@rogers.com
Based on previous experience, all lines are underutilized.
To give a contra-example: All evidence suggests that the Lex line is saturated at rush hour. Are there any lines which aren't?
On the contrary, they used to operate 32 tph on the express and 30 tph on the local. They currently operate only 28 tph on the express and only 21 tph on the local.
No.
In some cases that could very well be. Given the well publicized problems, I doubt seriously that there is any more capacity on the Lex, no matter what they used to do.
But in other cases, service levels have simply been adjusted to demand. That is almost certainly true on the J/M/Z, for instance.
He also says the TA would do so if everyone in it wasn't incompetent. Those who operate the system have a different view. They say that signal modifications to slow trains for safety reasons have reduced throughput, due in part to the loss of something call "field shunting." Rising ridership also plays a role, due to increased dwell times. Bauman talked about two standard deviations on dwell time, which makes only one of 40 trains unacceptably late. At 26 tph, that guarantees that you'll have one such train the peak 90 minutes on an average day..
One reason I question the TA's competence is that they continue to blame field shunting and slow grade timers to be the reason that previously obtainable service levels can no longer be achieved.
It's simply not true. It's not supported by any published published papers on the subject. The lack of field shunting limits effective maximum speed to around 30 mph, as opposed to 45 mph with field shunting. The TA's excuse is that the reduction of maximum speed, from 45 mph to 30 mph, has caused a reduction in maximum service levels from 36 tph down to 28 tph.
One should therefore assume, that a line that had a maximum speed of only 16 mph should have an even lower maximum service level. There was such a line 100 years ago - the Brooklyn Bridge Cable Railway. It had maximum service levels of 90 tph and averaged 40 tph over a 24 hour period. The line was electrified 95 years ago and a block system was installed. They kept the 16 mph speed because of operational restrictions on the bridge. They ran 66 tph at peak.
The reason is that safety is guaranteed by keeping a safe distance between trains. The distance between trains is determined by the relative velocity between the leader and the follower. It is not determined by either's absolute velocity. A given separation will remain constant, so long as both leader and follower maintain the same speed. Clearly, a cable gets fairly close to a 0 relative velocity.
There is a mile's separation between two trains travelling at 30 mph at 2 minute headways. Trains require 350 feet to stop (they used to require only 250 feet). The only way the follower can gain on the leader is when the leader is going slower than the follower. The only time there is a great difference in their speeds is: when the leader is stopping for a station; when the leader is motionless in the station and when the leader is leaving the station. Not surprisingly, these are the three factors that most influence maximum service levels; the absolute maximum speed does not enter into the equation.
Rising ridership also plays a role, due to increased dwell times.
The only problem with this argument is that ridership was greater in 1954, when maximum service levels were in excess of 30 tph.
Bauman talked about two standard deviations on dwell time, which makes only one of 40 trains unacceptably late. At 26 tph, that guarantees that you'll have one such train the peak 90 minutes on an average day..
The standard deviation that I was referring to was 20 seconds. Therefore with 120 second headways 97.5% of the trains will arrive no later than 40 seconds of its scheduled time. This is equivalent to 1 train every 90 minutes arriving more than 40 seconds late. It also means that 99.74% of the trains will arrive will arrive within 1 minute of their scheduled time.
1 minute is also 50% of the headway for 30 tph operation. Arrival within 50% of scheduled headway is one of the TA's measuremnets for service reliability. System performance is 78%. The TA also consider 80% acceptable.
As Casey Stengel asked of his 1962 Mets "Can't anybody here play this game?" :-)
David
First of all, the current NYCT signaling system can't tell if the leader is moving or still until it enters a new signal block.
Secondly, you can't rely on the velocity of the leader. Suppose it derails and decelerates at a rate of 1 g or so, miuch faster than normal braking speed?
You could have signaling that takes the speed of the follower into account, which the current signaling also does not do. I hope CBTC will do so.
1."N: No trains running; Take the W running on the N instead."
2."W: Coney Island-bound trains run on the N from 36 Street to Stillwell Avenue."
3."Trains run EXPRESS [my caps] to Stillwell Avenue."
4."For service to [9th Avenue through 55th Street], take the N to New Utrecht Avenue-62 Street and transfer to a Manhattan-bound W [which is apparently running normally inbound via West End]."
WHAT THE-???!!!
How in the devil can you take the N to New Utrecht if there IS no N?! Furthermore, if the W is running express over the Sea Beach to Coney, and there's no N, how can you get to ANY Sea Beach local stop?! Paragraphs 1 and 4 completely contradict each other. The combined message in Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 leave one with the impression that there's no Sea Beach local service IN EITHER DIRECTION. Shouldn't the W run LOCAL out via Sea Beach and in via West End to at least provide one-way loop service?
I tried to explain this to the N and W line supers, whose numbers are listed in Straphangers. They held fast to the notion that the W would indeed run express via Sea Beach and return via West End- and at the same time claimed there WOULD be Sea Beach local service. A call to TA Customer Service yielded similar results. The general attitude was that I didn't understand the advisories, and if I were that confused, I should take the F train- or the bus- instead.
It doesn't seem logical that eight stations would be completely stripped of service in both directions. Or is someone posting incorrect information on the wesbite?
That wouldn't be the first time; one weekend GO had the 2 running express in BOTH directions in the Bronx. Quite a trick on a three-track line!!
No trains marked N.
Trains marked W use the Sea Beach Line to go to Stillwell, and stop at every stop along the way, and use the West End Line to go to Manhattan, again stopping everywhere.
I suspect that in TA terminology, the term express only refers to stops on 4th Ave. The TA does not acknowledge the possibility of an "express" that doesn't stop at Sea Beach stops.
I guess the terms Sea Beach and West End are no longer standard terminology. They would have had a lot easier time explaining it with those terms.
Whoever writes up these posters doesn't understand the Sea Beach line. How many times, when the W actually was running express, have we seen the poster instruct passengers to transfer at New Utrecht?
If there's no N service and the W runs over the Sea Beach in one direction, it will run local, regardless of what the advisory claims.
If there is N service, then there are three possibilities: (a) the W will run express and the N will serve the local stops; (b) both the W and the N will make local stops; (c) the W will make local stops and the N will run light.
Busing is in effect from Leominster to Fitchburg on the Fitchburg Commuter Rail branch due to a plane crash.
(Note - it was a small private plane.)
Small Plane Hits Building in Massachusetts
Theere is a train with 3 on the front route sign. #3's have used 239th for the car wash so it is probably there
Westchester Ave Master has some old pictures of the yard displayed. I'll compare next time I'm there. But it has to be Westchester, its the only IRT yard I remember with loop tracks.
I can tell you for sure its not 239, 240, Lenox, E180 or New Lots. I don't think Unionport has a loop (only been there once).
-Stef
-Stef
Peace
David
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
If any other posters provided this answer, please understand I did not read all of the postings before putting up this one.
Best wishes Vlad from brooklyn !
it happens ! Vlad
This is a 3 minute report by Bobby Cuza:
http://real.ny1.com:8080/ramgen/real3/00046CA1_030319_153016hi.rm
Here is my take on the post 2004-2005 world, including completion of the new Stillwell Ave.-Coney Island terminal.
1) Route changes
B: Extended as Brighton Express via Chrystie St., replacing the Q Diamond. It will run weekdays only from 145/Bedford Park Blvd. to Brighton Beach.
D: Extended to Coney Island via West End Line, all times via Chrystie St.
N: Coney Island to Ditmars Blvd., via Bridge and Broadway Express.
Q: Coney Island to 57 St., via Bridge and Broadway Express weekdays (rush hours?), Local via Tunnel weekends to replace present W.
W: Whitehall St. to Ditmars Blvd. Weekdays (rush hours?) via Broadway Local.
2) Equipment changes
With the D extended to Coney Island via West End, its requirement will rise, but with the B transferred to Coney Island some R-68s should go over there with it. Add in the R-68/68As now used on the W and there will be plenty of 75-foot cars to go around.
Requirements on the N will be reduced markedly thanks to route shortening and express operation. With the W reduced to weekdays (rush hours?) only it may be possible to consolidate the equipment presently used on the N to both of these new lines, plus what comes off the discontinued Q Diamond.
Based on these conclusions, this is the car assignment that would result:
A (207): R-38
A (Pitkin): R-32, R-44
B (Coney Island): R-68A, R-68
C (207): R-38
C (Pitkin): R-32
D (Concourse): R-68
E (Jamaica): R-32
F (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
G (Jamaica): R-46
S-Rock Pk (Pitkin): R-44
J/Z (East NY): R-42
L (East NY): R-143, probably some R-42 until CBTC
M (East NY): R-42
N (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, maybe R-68 & R-68A
Q (Coney Island): R-68 & R-68A weekdays, add R-40, R-40M/42 wknds
R (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
S-Franklin (Coney Island): single R-68
V (Jamaica): R-46
W (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, R-68, R-68A
This is just one man's opinion, and let's see what transpires....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Don't forget that Bergen Interlocking will be repaired by then.
So, in addition to the changes you've listed, try these out:
F - runs as express in Brooklyn (rush hours?)
V - extended over the Manhattan Bridge into Brooklyn and frequency of service increased.
So: You'll need more subway cars for the V. Will the N's excess cars be enough for that, too? What if the G returns to six car operations?
BTW, R143's are continuing to arrive.
I was just thinking, when the R-32's left Coney Island (yard) could one small reason be that the R-32 side roll signs be not used on the (B) & (D) just in case if they would show up there ? The signs say (D) Brighton and not West End and (B) West End and not Brighton. Probably not the main reason, but something they may have considered.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually some of the newer R-143s to enter service (a small batch of high 8200s/8300s) have the M line software and are probably being used now.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
A (207): R-38
A (Pitkin): R-32, R-44
B (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, maybe R-68 & R-68A
C (207): R-38
C (Pitkin): R-32
D (Concourse): R-68
E (Jamaica): R-32
F (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
G (Jamaica): R-46
S-Rock Pk (Pitkin): R-44
J/Z (East NY): R-42
L (East NY): R-143, probably some R-42 until CBTC
M (East NY): R-42
N (Coney Island): R-68A, R-68
Q (Coney Island): R-68 & R-68A weekdays, add R-40, R-40M/42 wknds
R (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
S-Franklin (Coney Island): single R-68
V (Jamaica): R-46
W (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, R-68, R-68A
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
A (207): R-38
A (Pitkin): R-32, R-44
B (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, maybe R-68 & R-68A
C (207): R-38
C (Pitkin): R-32
D (Concourse): R-68
E (Jamaica): R-32
F (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
G (Jamaica): R-46
S-Rock Pk (Pitkin): R-44
J/Z (East NY): R-42
L (East NY): R-143, probably some R-42 until CBTC
M (East NY): R-42, R-143 wknd OPTO
N (Coney Island): R-68A, R-68
Q (Coney Island): R-68 & R-68A weekdays, add R-40, R-40M/42 wknds
R (Jamaica): R-32, R-46
S-Franklin (Coney Island): single R-68
V (Jamaica): R-46
W (Coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, R-68, R-68A
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yes, unfortunately.
:0)
Under the NYCT plan for next year, it will continue to run express on weekdays and probably on weekends, but not at night.
-Stef
Any additional loco photos would be appreciated to fill in the blanks, there are several with no photos: 57, 58, 64, 67, 68, 72, 75, 80, 81, 883, 892, 897, 903, 904, E01, E05, E08, E09
If you have any in your collection of these beasts in particular, help make a complete loco photo roster!
-Dave
I grew up in Bergen county, there is (at least was) the Bergen Mall (where Sterns is) and the Garden State Plaza. I have heard the names scrambled more than a few times.
Have a safe a restful trip on Train 79...
I'll see you at Union Station Gate G in the morning.
So, get those digital camers charged up and loaded with blank discs:)
And quiz time----When the Metro made its debut, where was the Springfield station to be located? What was the line color?
Question #2--Where were the Nicholson Lane and Chillum Stations to be located?---what stations took their place?
Question #3--On the ARS, what was the original name for the Eastern Market station?
John & Oren, I know you both know these answers....;)
See y'all in the morning,
Mark
#3 West End Jeff
David
If express service was instituted on the west end line, ridership would increase and the number of express runs would decrease.
The MTA currently runs 24 express buses per hour
YES 24 BPH on the X28/x38 corridor which serves the Coney islands Sea gate and the high rise apartment houses that are are along cropsy ave between Bay 50th and Bay Parkway
It currently takes un unacceptable 46 minutes to get from Bay parkway to Times square on the west end local. 54 minutes from stillwell. The constent open and closing of the doors letting the cold in during the winter and the heat in the summer is also a deterent
Add on that to the 10-20 minutes it takes to get to bay parkway station from the cropsy corridor on the b82/b6 bus that comes every 4-6 min, many rider will choose the much more costlier for the MTA to operate express bus over the west end line
Estimated Total travel time to take west end local from bay 55th to time square
Bus to train including wait 15
Wait for west end train 7 min
travel time 46 min
Total travel time 1 hour and 18 min
Even longer from Sea Gate or the myrid of high rise housing projects in CI
Compare that to the x28/x38 express bus that comes every 1-5 minutes and a total ride time to midtown of 55 minutes
Nice comfortable ride, no constant heat/cold fluxurations and ding dong of the doors
Total travel time on Express bus 55 minutes door to door
West end ridership would soar if express service was started. The service would run local from stillwell to bay parkway then make stops at 62nd street and 36th street. It could even stop at 9th ave if it make you happy. Express service would attract addtional development in the Bay 50th and 25th ave area which is currently underdevelped
Just as on the brighton, riders who board at local stops with transfer to the express to save a few minutes on there journey
In addtion it would save the MTA millions of dollars it now spends operting ultra-frequent service on these express lines. The remaining express runs would be sped up by removing many buses from the crowded bensonhurst, gowanus express way and manhattan roads
The infrastucture is there why not use it. If addtional exress stations were needed to be added it is not terribly difficult to add it to the el structure. Sprucing up the stations, replacing the aluminum platform panels with glass, installing wind gaurds or small canapees to make the stations warmer in the winter would also attract riders, Chicargo is installing wind guards and heater on some loop stations. Paris has canopees over the tracks.
While west end express would serve people in the cropsy corridor. There is more then enough potential ridership to attract enough riders to make such a service worth wild. The bensonhurst bath beach area was my secound home growing up. My grandmother and aunt lived in the neighborhood.
At half the price 50% or more current express bus riders would choose west end express over the express bus. Plus express train service would attract addtional development and more people who work in manhattan into the area.
NX. It served Brighton to BBC, but it ran up the Sea Beach.
West end express would bennifit riders along the west end line.
#3 West End Jeff
How would such a service figure into the draft plan, though? It seems to me that any West End Express ought to also run express on the 4th Avenue line as well.
Of course, I'm not entirely sure which route one would want to use. Extending the draft M or W would be extending Manhattan locals, which of course, take longer to get to Midtown (in the case of the W, the extra time to run through the Broadway Local tracks, a good 8 minutes or so, I'd guess; the M doesn't go to Midtown, so a transfer would be required). Extending the V might be an option, but that would require more cars to be put on that line, which is, at least until new R-143 or R-160 cars are sent to, say, Pitkin Yard so that they can send their R-32 cars to Jamaica Yard. That V would be operating like Queens Boulevard Local/53rd Street Tunnel/6th Avenue Local/Manhattan Bridge North/4th Avenue Express/West End Express-Local.
This raises more questions. Does the Manhattan Bridge North have the requisite capacity to handle the additional tph? Does DeKalb Avenue? On the return trip, does the West End Local. If not or maybe even if it could be done effetively, could the trains be better turned around by, say, sending them back up the Sea Beach Express tracks (non-revenue service)?
#3 West End Jeff
And how much time to you think an express would save? The rule of thumb (based on other express runs) is about 30 seconds per station bypassed -- that's 4 minutes total for people boarding at or south of Bay Parkway or 2 minutes for people boarding at 62nd. If this new express service is coupled with a reduction in local service, then the local passengers will start riding the express buses due to insufficient local train service.
Estimated Total travel time to take west end local from bay 55th to time square
Bus to train including wait 15(this is a generous number)
Wait for west end train 7 min
travel time 46 min
Total travel time 1 hour and 18 min "
According to the MTA schedule during rush hour
W runs every 6-9 min
M runs every 8-10 min
the W express would skip 7 stops.
The Q diamond schedule gives 52.5 secounds per stop skipped. The Q diamond skips 8 brighton stops.
Based on the 52.5 secounds per station skipped the west end express would save riders boarding at bay parkway a minimum of 6 minutes. I a believe greater time savings could be had on the west end due to the fact that the local never seams to be able to get up to speed with all the close stops.
Don't discount the comfort and phsycological issues that the express provides
1)Better climate control. Outdoor stations especially elevated stations tend to be windy especially in the winter. The more stops, the colder the temperature inside the car is in the winter, the warmer it is in the summer.
I will not take a brigton local in the winter(especially the R68/68A) because the car never completly warms up. You can never relax and reed or sleep. The wind blows into the already chilly car at each stop
2)It is mentaly fustrating to stop and start.
3)Reliability issue - The more time the doors open and close the greater the chance someone holds the doors or they door fails.
"If this new express service is coupled with a reduction in local service, then the local passengers will start riding the express buses due to insufficient local train service"
First of all there is no express buses in walking distance of the west end local stations east of 86th street. The only station skipped on 86th street would be 20th ave station.
Many passengers will choose to use the express stop over waiting at there local stop,
20th ave riders would choose bay parkway or 18th ave station
many 79th street station riders would choose the 18th ave express stop instead.
Many riders who use 55th street or 71th street will use 62nd street station.
Secound, just as on the brighton line, the local trains will arrive just ahead of the express trains allowing cross platform transfer mitigating the possible extra 2 min wait for the local train.
The ride on the express is a more plesent ride. There is already feeder buses along 18th ave and bay parkway that could feed riders along the dense crospy corridor to bay parkway and the new 18th ave express station. 18th ave station would also draw riders using the B1 north of 18th ave and some commuters living on 13th ave.
The feeder bus schedule could be beefed up a bit with subway specials if needed.
The 6-8 min savings plus extra comfort at half the price will draw many riders alloing the MTA to cut the X28/x38 runs significantly. This would save the MTA money and also boost the desireablity of developement along the west end. Lets not forget it will speed the travel time on the x28/x38 by removing traffic on clogged narrow cropsy ave. (cropsy ave drops to one lane in both directions west of bay parkway. I got stuck behind a x28/x38 bus this afternoon. It was not fun.
"Bus to train including wait 15(this is a generous number)"
This is the time it takes to wait + bus travel time to get to the station.
Cropsy ave for those who are not familia with bensonhurst is 3 to 4 long blocks from 86th street where the west end elevated is located. The express bus runs along cropsy therefore it is just easier then waiting to take a bus to a slow, tedius(many stops, Hot or cold air blowing in at each stop) west end line.
An express train would remove some of the negative. At a price that is half the cost of the express bus, it will attract more riders to the subway system.
It is a crying shame that a subway exists with an express tracl a few blocks from a densily packed area and it is under used due to the slow travel time. Stop and go, hot and cold does not let one relax.
Bensonhurst has bulked up on density over the last 10 years replacing big old house with 4 story condo's. there is plenty of additional develoment available, Express service make the area more attractive.
Under the new fare stucture the average fare paid by express bus riders will move up from $2.70 to $3.20 still a far cry from the $4 a ride prior to 1996 and far less then the cost of providing the service. A shorter ride(time wise) on NJ transit is over $5
That's a pretty silly comparison. The Brighton line is arrow-straight and has few if any grade timers. The West End line has a number of sharp curves with speed restrictions. Expresses would be subject to the same speed restrictions as locals. And terminal congestion at Bay Parkway would introduce new slowdowns on the express.
Look at other expresses around the system and you'll see an average of about 30 seconds.
Don't discount the comfort and phsycological issues that the express provides
Fine. Also, don't discount the comfort and psychological issues that the local provides. Or do you enjoy standing at a local station watching trains pass through your station without stopping?
You've suggested that 18th Avenue be converted to an express station. When was the last time a local station was converted to an express station? The only case I can think of is 59th Street on the 4/5/6, which was relatively easy, since no tracks had to be moved -- and that's a much, much busier station than anything on the West End.
Based on the 2001 weekday ridership numbers that David posted elsewhere in the thread, the resulting express would stop at the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 11th busiest of the 11 non-transfer points on the West End line. Doesn't that seem odd to you? If there are four (non-transfer) express stations, shouldn't they ideally be at the four busiest stations on the line?
I'm sure you'll claim that those four stations would become much busier if there were express service, since current express bus riders will switch to the subway. But how many express bus riders are there? I don't have route-by-route statistics (perhaps David does and he would be kind enough to post them), but according to this source, there are only about 5,000 express bus passengers per day through the Battery Tunnel, and most of them are presumably coming from Staten Island and other points in Brooklyn. Even if every single one of them were coming from the West End corridor, and every single one of them switched to the subway, they'd only fill up an additional four or five trains, total. Of course, not all of them are coming from the West End corridor and many will continue to ride the express bus.
I agree that NYCT should discourage the use of express buses due to their generally poor farebox recovery ratio, but the best way to do that is raise the express bus fare and reduce express bus service -- a solution which the governor would probably object to but which he should be continually pressed on. Attempting to bribe them onto the subway won't work and will only cost more money -- money that would be better used improving service on lines that could actually use more service.
Then why not run all brighton line trains on the local track to reduce the wait time of brighton line riders. They would fit. People would wait a shorter time to get there trian. Of course total travel time would increase especially downline(kings highway or beyond). The downline neighborhoods would decline because of the addtional travel time plus the discomfort of the constant stoping and starting, plus the uncomfortable temperature extremes at each stop
Take a look at the neighborhoods east of bay parkway on the west end. They are not as well kept up as well as brighton line neighborhoods with many people living there not working jobs in manhattan. Coincidence?? compare them to the neighborhoods downline on the brighton, similar type housing and density but, in better shape because people have better jobs in manhattan.
west end neighborhoods do not attract people working in manhattan because there is no express service. Add the express service, attract more manhattan workers. The neighborhoods do not have problems such as drugs or high levels of crime or murder. The neighborhoods issue is related to transit access to the city. The line is there, add express service, new stations if needed and you will increase west end utilization
Proper train scheduling as is now done on the brighton schedules the local train in peak direction to arrive a few secound to a half minute prior to the express allowing local station riders to also participate in the bennifits of express train service. Ride the brighon local from ocean parkway to church ave. You will see large percentages of passengers gettin on a local stations transfering to the soon to be arriving express train. This service improvement since the early 1990's is astonishing.
It works the opposite in the evening, express trains arrive prior to local trains allowing those on the express to transfer to the local to complete there commuting.
The additional wait time of 2 min would be more then made up by transfering to the express.
Wait time may be increased by 2 min but total travel time would remian the same or improve even for those who use local stops.
Don't discount the power of attracting new development and riders the express will bring. This will allow the MTA to add a few addtional rush hour runs.
On the way home passengers wanting local stations who originally boarded an express would add 1 minute to there commute but save downline riders 5-6 min.
"Based on the 2001 weekday ridership numbers that David posted elsewhere in the thread, the resulting express would stop at the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 11th busiest of the 11 non-transfer points on the West End line. Doesn't that seem odd to you? If there are four (non-transfer) express stations, shouldn't they ideally be at the four busiest stations on the line?"
The busiest stations along the brighton comes from the feeder buses. Most Brighton express station such as sheaphead bay, kings highway get a large preportion of there riders from feeder buses. Many riders who now use local stations near the new express station will choose to use the new express station. If express service is started this will tip the balance of station usage numbers.
For example if you live near 21th ave and 86th street you may use bay parkway or 20th ave stations. Add the new express and most riders would use bay parkway.
Don't forget about the downline stations of 25th ave, bay 50th and stillwell who's riders even if they have to transfer to a waiting express train at bay parkway will bennift also.
Living along these stations becomes more attractive if one can reduce there travel time. This will attract more manahattan bound commuters living in the area
You can not do an analysis based on current ridership numbers at each station. The reason is that adding an express shifts the demand curve for the whole line making areas around express stops more vailiable to manhattan bound commuter. More manhattan bound commuters will move near these stations adding addtional riders not currently there. The west end line is more dense along 86th street then say sheapshead bay or kings highway. You will find that many people in the area don't work in the city due to the lest then stellar transit access. The area is nice safe enough and has many ammenidies that will attract people if transit was more convient
"but according to this source, there are only about 5,000 express bus passengers per day through the Battery Tunnel, and most of them are presumably coming from Staten Island and other points in Brooklyn. Even if every single one of them were coming from the West End corridor, and every single one of them switched to the subway, they'd only fill up an additional four or five trains, total. Of course, not all of them are coming from the West End corridor and many will continue to ride the express bus"
The ridership numbers seem a bit low. When were they taken. Prior to the $3 express bus fare the ridership was lower. The IRT Joralemon Tunnel of 16,000 per morning rush seams a bit low. Battery tunnel via mass transit of a little over 5000 can not be accurate. Concidering the MTA operates 24 57 seat mci's per hour or 1367 seats per hour on the X28/x38 during the morning rush. They would not be running this many buses if they were empty. This line's seats alone would account for the majority of the battery tunnel ridership numbers. This does not even count all the busy si express runs, the Bay ridge x27 express runs, not to mention the command bus runs.
If the MTA would run 3 additional trains per hour, the local stop wait time would be about the same as the current brighton line local stop waiting time. The cuurent M service along the west end forces many people along the west end to get off and wait for another manhattan bound bridge train. This increases commuting time more then a peak dirrection express would
Looking over the weekday ridership numbers posted by dave of west end stations http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=471194
Moving 1/3 of the current express bus riders on the X27/x28 would make bay parkway and 18th ave the top two west end stations by far. Plus half or more of riders boarding at 20th ave will board at either 18th ave or bay parkway instead.
Hour by hour ridership breakouts are needed to further analyze current data. For instance fort hamilton parkway is often used by people visiting maimonides hospital and are not neccessarily entering the station during rush hour periods. subtract out the off hour rider data and this station usage during rush hour drops big time. Once again station usaage patterns and number of manahattan bound commuters will increase with express service.
"You've suggested that 18th Avenue be converted to an express station. When was the last time a local station was converted to an express station? The only case I can think of is 59th Street on the 4/5/6, which was relatively easy, since no tracks had to be moved -- and that's a much, much busier station than anything on the West End"
18th ave is an importent station to add because it has an important feeder bus route the B8 that brings riders from cropsy between 14th and 18th ave plus riders from the other direction along the b8 route plus b1 riders from 13th ave.
It will cost money but it can be done on the el far easier then at station sin open cuts or in tunnels. One time capitol cost will be recooped over time. Minus out the cost of upcoming renovations(this station has not seen any recent renovations), reduced operating costs of express runs and increased overall ridership and the modification costs are a good investment.
" agree that NYCT should discourage the use of express buses due to their generally poor farebox recovery ratio, but the best way to do that is raise the express bus fare and reduce express bus service"
I agree that increasing the express bus fare to a more accurate representations of cost would reduce express bus ridership on X28/x38. These express lines have also attracted more manhattan bound commuters to the neighborhood in the past 5 years who would not have moved along the cropsy ave corridor. raising the fae alone will kust lead to more manahattan bound commuters to move out of the area.
Concider the fact that express bus fares were reduced from $4 to $2.70 in 1996 and it explains the new found express bus popularity. With the fare raise the express bus fare(3.20) will still be less then pre 1996 levels (4*20% discount =3.20)
Because the Brighton line has sufficient ridership to support an express service in addition to a local service. The Brighton local runs at reasonable headways and continues onto a popular Manhattan route (currently the exact same route as the one the express takes). The West End line does not have the ridership to support more than perhaps a very modest service increase. Adding an additional express service is a waste of money that could be better used elsewhere. Converting some of the current service into express service would leave local stations, which carry most of the riders, with unacceptably long headways and perhaps with a route that most of them wouldn't find useful.
Take a look at the neighborhoods east of bay parkway on the west end. They are not as well kept up as well as brighton line neighborhoods with many people living there not working jobs in manhattan. Coincidence?? compare them to the neighborhoods downline on the brighton, similar type housing and density but, in better shape because people have better jobs in manhattan.
Many factors influence the condition of a neighborhood; transit access is one of many. I don't see why the fares I pay to ride the subway should be used on a neighborhood gentrification project. I also don't see why riders further up the line at local stops should lose the service they need for a neighborhood gentrification project.
west end neighborhoods do not attract people working in manhattan because there is no express service. Add the express service, attract more manhattan workers. The neighborhoods do not have problems such as drugs or high levels of crime or murder. The neighborhoods issue is related to transit access to the city. The line is there, add express service, new stations if needed and you will increase west end utilization
Remind me: why is it that I want to increase West End utilization, again?
Proper train scheduling as is now done on the brighton schedules the local train in peak direction to arrive a few secound to a half minute prior to the express allowing local station riders to also participate in the bennifits of express train service. Ride the brighon local from ocean parkway to church ave. You will see large percentages of passengers gettin on a local stations transfering to the soon to be arriving express train. This service improvement since the early 1990's is astonishing.
Er, um, at which stop do these connections take place? I see four possibilities.
If they take place at, say, Sheepshead Bay, anyone boarding a local north of that point doesn't benefit. If they take place at, say, Church, there is no benefit at all -- the passengers who don't want to sit north of Parkside waiting for another train to clear Prospect Park have to give up their seats and transfer to the express, which doesn't actually save them any time.
The additional wait time of 2 min would be more then made up by transfering to the express.
Wait time may be increased by 2 min but total travel time would remian the same or improve even for those who use local stops.
Where do you come up with your numbers?
If the express runs at less than 15 tph (and it had better run at less than 15 tph), the average wait for a train will be greater than two minutes.
Travel time from Bay Parkway to 36th Street is, at best, four minutes faster via express than via local. Those boarding the express at 18th Avenue and at 62nd Street will see savings of about three minutes and about two minutes, respectively. Those starting on the local north of 62nd but transferring to the express later anyway -- if the local is the M, anyone bound for 6th Avenue has to transfer to the express no matter what -- don't benefit at all from the express run, but now they have to wait for two trains instead of one.
The busiest stations along the brighton comes from the feeder buses. Most Brighton express station such as sheaphead bay, kings highway get a large preportion of there riders from feeder buses. Many riders who now use local stations near the new express station will choose to use the new express station. If express service is started this will tip the balance of station usage numbers.
The Brighton line is the nearest line to a huge section of subway-starved Brooklyn. Of course many of its riders come from feeder buses.
The West End serves primarily its own neighborhood, since it isn't the nearest line to much else. Most West End passengers walk to the subway. Running an express won't change that, though it might push some people who live between the West End and the Sea Beach onto the N, which would have more frequent and more useful service than the West End local.
Or do you expect the West End to attract passengers who currently ride feeder buses to the Brighton? Somehow I don't expect many people to spend an extra 20 minutes riding past the Brighton, past the Culver, and past the Sea Beach, all to take advantage of a four-minute savings on the West End. Nor do I see why this would even be desireable. Get people off the buses and onto the subways ASAP!
The ridership numbers seem a bit low. When were they taken. Prior to the $3 express bus fare the ridership was lower. The IRT Joralemon Tunnel of 16,000 per morning rush seams a bit low. Battery tunnel via mass transit of a little over 5000 can not be accurate. Concidering the MTA operates 24 57 seat mci's per hour or 1367 seats per hour on the X28/x38 during the morning rush. They would not be running this many buses if they were empty. This line's seats alone would account for the majority of the battery tunnel ridership numbers. This does not even count all the busy si express runs, the Bay ridge x27 express runs, not to mention the command bus runs.
I don't have an exact date, but it seems to be from around 1996.
Actually, it turns out that I do have route-by-route statistics, broken down into hour and 15-minute chunks. Unfortunately, they're also from 1996, but they're the best I have.
There was no B38 at the time. At its peak hour, 8-9am, the B28 carried 444 passengers on 13 buses through the BBT. In the afternoon the B28 carried 200 passengers on 6 buses between 5 and 6 and 202 passengers on 5 buses between 6 and 7. The daily B28 ridership total was 950 northbound and 757 southbound.
I know express bus ridership has grown since 1996. How much has B28/B38 ridership grown? I don't know, so I'll have to guess. What's a reasonable guess? Two times? Three times? I'd be very surprised if ridership increased that much, but let's go with three times. That's 1,332 passengers between 8 and 9. And let's say your express service managed to attract every single one of them onto the subway (which of course wouldn't happen). How many trains per hour would NYCT need to add to accomodate the additional load? One.
18th ave is an importent station to add because it has an important feeder bus route the B8 that brings riders from cropsy between 14th and 18th ave plus riders from the other direction along the b8 route plus b1 riders from 13th ave.
Yet apparently there are enough walk-up customers at 20th Avenue to outnumber the bus passengers who transfer at 18th Avenue.
It will cost money but it can be done on the el far easier then at station sin open cuts or in tunnels. One time capitol cost will be recooped over time. Minus out the cost of upcoming renovations(this station has not seen any recent renovations), reduced operating costs of express runs and increased overall ridership and the modification costs are a good investment.
How would this capital cost be recouped over time? NYCT loses money on each West End - Manhattan trip.
Concider the fact that express bus fares were reduced from $4 to $2.70 in 1996 and it explains the new found express bus popularity. With the fare raise the express bus fare(3.20) will still be less then pre 1996 levels (4*20% discount =3.20)
$3.33, actually. A $10 card is valid for 3 express bus rides under the restructured fare.
This is an irresponcible statement made without much thought. For one, demographic improvements that may result by better subway access would result in increased ridership and TAX REVENUE, additional jobs etc without additional increases in cost to the city. Take into acccount the number of fewer express bus runs and the cost of additional subway service is reduced.
One of the purpose of mass transit is to provide convient access to the central business distict. A properly managed system would have a goal to improve commuting experience of riders to attract residents to areas where the service runs. The west end local does not meet this requirement.
If you have ever been to this area and talked to the residents you will know that they hate the commute on the west end for many of the reasons I stated earlier. It's a shame that the infrastructure is there and it is not fully utilized. Other areas of the country would die for such infrastructure and NYCT transit wastes the infrastucture.
If NYCT would install inteligent OPTO allowing one man crews on full length trains the economic case would even be better.
There is plenty of development room along 86th street corridor
The areas around 62nd street currently factories and auto repair shops is in the process of being rezoned residential adding even more riders to the west end.
"If they take place at, say, Sheepshead Bay, anyone boarding a local north of that point doesn't benefit. If they take place at, say, Church, there is no benefit at all -- the passengers who don't want to sit north of Parkside waiting for another train to clear Prospect Park have to give up their seats and transfer to the express, which doesn't actually save them any time"
Morning rush
Sheapshead bay. Express arrives 1 minute after local
Kings highway Local and express arrive at same time- as per schedule
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tqcur.pdf page 2 right side.
During the peak of rush hour between 7:20 and 8:20 where the schedule does not break out the arrival time at kings highway
local station are served every 6-8 min
Express station are served ever 2-6 min
Personal observation has shown the following
Express either arrives just after the local or within 30 secound to a minute behind. Express holds for transfer if it arrives early(this was not the case in the early 90's)
Nekerk ave - Peak periods, trains meet up 50% of the time. Express holds for the transfer if the local is arriving. Local does not hold for transfer to express
Coney island bound
Church ave - Express is about a few min behind local. I am ussually looking to transfer to the express.
Newkirk ave - Local and express meet up with local holding for transfer
Kings highway - Express arrives first, local aprox 3-4 min behind
"I know express bus ridership has grown since 1996. How much has B28/B38 ridership grown? I don't know, so I'll have to guess. What's a reasonable guess? Two times? Three times?"
Express bus ridership grew by leaps and bounds once the fare was lowered to $3($2.70 with 10% discount) and subway fare rose to $1.50
"Actually, it turns out that I do have route-by-route statistics, broken down into hour and 15-minute chunks. Unfortunately, they're also from 1996, but they're the best I have.
There was no B38 at the time. At its peak hour, 8-9am, the B28 carried 444 passengers on 13 buses through the BBT. In the afternoon the B28 carried 200 passengers on 6 buses between 5 and 6 and 202 passengers on 5 buses between 6 and 7. The daily B28 ridership total was 950 northbound and 757 southbound."
Well the MTA now operates 24 bus PER HOUR on the X28/X38 run. Express bus statistics prior to the Metrocard discounts and $3 fare are worthless. That is more thean a 400% increase in capasity per hour.
24 buses x 57 passengers seating = 1368 passengers seats per hour
"I'd be very surprised if ridership increased that much, but let's go with three times. That's 1,332 passengers between 8 and 9. And let's say your express service managed to attract every single one of them onto the subway (which of course wouldn't happen). "
"Yet apparently there are enough walk-up customers at 20th Avenue to outnumber the bus passengers who transfer at 18th Avenue"
That because most riders at 18th ave are walkups themselves. Prior to 1996 the area in dyker heights/hamilton heights neighborhood along cropsy and 13th ave was a two fare zone. Residents looking to commute to the city did not decide to live here. They drove to work or collected wellfare(the old rental apartment had many welfare cases. It is now marketed as luxury condos-many old time southern italians found ways to collect welfare and not work)
The remaining passengers either commuted to the subway bus or filled those 5 express buses an hour you speak of. Since 1996 there has been a few new condo projects along cropsy to take advantage of the new cheaper express bus service. Express bus service is much more costlier then running train service
Many passengers take the x28/x38 express bus if they live along cropsy. The same avenue between 14th ave and 18th ave that the B8 runs. The lower express bus fare attracted more manahttan commuters
Why would someone add 20 minutes to there commuter plus the constant temerature changes just to take the subway to save a perceived mere $1.20. Also remember that this area was a two fare zone prior to 1996. Because of this many people in this area did not work in manhattan.
This area along cropsy near 14th ave is 1 and two family homes. Once you pass 16th ave it becomes 3 to 8 story apartment buildings, 3-4 family condos. Express train service will entice some of these express bus riders to ditch the express buses for express train service. Express buses cost a fortune to operate.
"How many trains per hour would NYCT need to add to accomodate the additional load? One
One additional train per hour would = aprox 14 trains per hour (m+w)
Concidering the brighon manages to operate both express and local service with only 12 TPH between 9-10 am with little complaint, why is it such a big deal to offer the same service level on the west end.
Express service would attract more riders then just express bus feeder crowd. More commuters would materialize in the blocks along 86th street and stillwell once the word of express service gets out. Local real estate agents will shout it out.
"How would this capital cost be recouped over time? NYCT loses money on each West End - Manhattan trip."
The capital costs gets recoped in the form of lower operational losses due to increased ridership(former express bus riders + new neighborhood residents) , reduced cost of more costly per seat on express bus service.
It is the same funny math that the MTA "surplus" which was in actuality a lower then expected operational loss. The mta loss less then it thought it would. Minus out the state and city subsidy and it still lost money.
There are other ways to reduce costs to make this service less costly and provide better service but that is a topic for another thread
"The Brighton line is the nearest line to a huge section of subway-starved Brooklyn. Of course many of its riders come from feeder buses"
SO is the west end. Cropsy ave is 4 long ave blocks from 86th street. Then add a two mile stretch along cropsy that is even further from the nearest train. The density along this stretch is far greater then in ,any brighon line feader neighborhoods(ever been to gerritsen beach?) These feeder buses are not coming from neighborhoods served by the sea beach and culver. You forget about the density and distance of the neighborhood west of 86th street. It spans 4-5 ave blocks back to the belt parkway.
The west end does not attract these riders because the lack of expres service.
Once I catch the B3 it is a 10-12 min ride for me to the brighon ave u station. My total commute time on train including cross platform Q express transfer is 30 min to midtown 34th street station.
Compare that to the 46 minutes it takes from bay parkway to 34th street station. Add the bus and your trip under PERFECT CONDITIONS is over an hour and 10 min
" -- if the local is the M, anyone bound for 6th Avenue has to transfer to the express no matter what -- don't benefit at all from the express run, but now they have to wait for two trains instead of one."
The M is not needed. It does not take you anyplace in lower manatttan that you could not get using the broadway line. The MTA travels to and from manhattan almost empty. I took it between 1996-98 when I traveled to and from work with my boss. The train had at best 50% of the seats filled during rushhour going from manhattan to broklyn. It just does not come often enough to attract any ridership base and does not serve any business stops other than broad street. The buildings around the broad street stops are all being converted to residences further reducing the demand
Then perhaps the city should subsidize the rebuilding of the 18th Avenue station and the operation of additional express service (with no reduction in local service). NYCT doesn't lay claim to that tax revenue, so NYCT has no business using its limited funding to generate it.
Would it be a worthwhile investment on the part of the city? I highly doubt it, but you're welcome to promote the idea. Have you suggested it to Mayor Bloomberg?
Take into acccount the number of fewer express bus runs and the cost of additional subway service is reduced.
Express bus service is a gift from the governor, paid for by subway riders around the city. The way to reduce express bus ridership is to insist that the governor stop giving gifts that he doesn't pay for himself. Asking subway riders to pay even more to try to entice a few people off the express buses is not likely to succeed, IMO.
One of the purpose of mass transit is to provide convient access to the central business distict. A properly managed system would have a goal to improve commuting experience of riders to attract residents to areas where the service runs. The west end local does not meet this requirement.
No, the purpose of a mass transit system is to provide adequate access between points in its service area within the bounds of its limited funds. Running unwarranted express service works against this goal, either by starving the local stations on the line or by reducing the funds available to improve service where more service actually is warranted.
If residents of the West End corridor don't like the service that can be reasonably made available on a line with moderate usage a significant distance from the CBD, then they're more than welcome to move elsewhere, to a line that can support express service or closer to where they work.
Well the MTA now operates 24 bus PER HOUR on the X28/X38 run. Express bus statistics prior to the Metrocard discounts and $3 fare are worthless. That is more thean a 400% increase in capasity per hour.
24 buses x 57 passengers seating = 1368 passengers seats per hour
It's actually only an 85% increase in the morning rush, but who's counting?
In any case, let's assume that the X28 and X38 carry exactly 1368 passengers between 8 and 9am. Let's also assume that, by reducing the subway ride by four minutes, all 1368 passengers decide to take the subway. How many trains will they fill? Still one.
Of course, the buses actually carry fewer than 1368 passengers, and most of those passengers will stay exactly where they are, on the express bus.
One additional train per hour would = aprox 14 trains per hour (m+w)
Concidering the brighon manages to operate both express and local service with only 12 TPH between 9-10 am with little complaint, why is it such a big deal to offer the same service level on the west end.
Why is it a big deal to offer the same service level on the West End during rush hour as the Brighton gets after rush hour is over? I think you're smart enough to answer that question yourself.
SO is the west end. Cropsy ave is 4 long ave blocks from 86th street. Then add a two mile stretch along cropsy that is even further from the nearest train. The density along this stretch is far greater then in ,any brighon line feader neighborhoods(ever been to gerritsen beach?) These feeder buses are not coming from neighborhoods served by the sea beach and culver. You forget about the density and distance of the neighborhood west of 86th street. It spans 4-5 ave blocks back to the belt parkway.
Look at a map of Brooklyn. The section of Brooklyn closest to the West End is much, much smaller than the section of Brooklyn closest to the Brighton.
Once I catch the B3 it is a 10-12 min ride for me to the brighon ave u station. My total commute time on train including cross platform Q express transfer is 30 min to midtown 34th street station.
That's impressive, considering that the diamond-Q alone is scheduled to take 31-34 minutes from Kings Highway to 34th Street.
The M is not needed. It does not take you anyplace in lower manatttan that you could not get using the broadway line. The MTA travels to and from manhattan almost empty. I took it between 1996-98 when I traveled to and from work with my boss. The train had at best 50% of the seats filled during rushhour going from manhattan to broklyn. It just does not come often enough to attract any ridership base and does not serve any business stops other than broad street. The buildings around the broad street stops are all being converted to residences further reducing the demand
Service between Broad Street and the south Brooklyn BMT network is needed, and the West End is the best place to send it, since West End riders prefer Nassau over Broadway for their lower Manhattan service. Still, most West End riders prefer the bridge, and passengers at West End local stations will rightfully put a stop to any plan that gives them only Nassau service or even local Broadway service.
Arti
Arti
I had the day off today, so I decided to do a block by block housing study along the west end line from CI to 62nd street
My study proves my basic contention that express service will make the area on the southern end of the west end more attractive to developers and riders. The cropsy corridore where the express bus runs is the newer part of the neighborhood. Many riders would take the train travel time decreased. This area is not in need of gentrification as David from manhattan who probably never lived in the area has implied. The neighborhood is rather safe and would attract development money if the commute was improved
62nd street. Many new 4 story condo type developments replacing the older lower density houses and empty lots. One entire block was nearly completly demolished and was replaced by new buildings. I counted at least 20 invidual developments. May of these developments were being done by the hesidic community. The industrial block and factories along 62nd street are being discused for re-zoning residential
18th ave - Plenty of room to expand the El's to allow two island platforms. A few underdeveloped lots now used by used car lots or older run down queen ann houses. A few new 4 story condo developments. The older one family queen anne homes have been town down and redeveloped into condos for the past 20 years. Two possible feeder bus routes with good headways during rush hour present
Bay Parkway station. Similar to 18th ave but fewer condo's built. the further you head down the west end towards CI the fewer new houses built. Some blocks with most of it'older one family homes remain. These old houses are build right on top of each other and are not very atttractive and drafty to live in. Bay parkway is the dividing line of the national stores(gap, pc richard etc. SOuth of bay parkway along 86th street under the El you begin to get one story market district stores and empty lots,
25th ave-MTA subway academy- Many of the old Queen ann(large one family houses) along the side blocks are still there as compared to the neighborhood north of Bay parkway which has the same basic housing stock. A few empty lots that could be developeded into housing
Bay 50th - One mitchell lama high rise surrounded by empty lots, and run down houses. Marborough housing projects a few blocks away
Stillwell terminal area.
East of the terminal - Luna park Mitchell Lama complex. High rise co-op apartment develomement. My old co-worker who lived in the development told me(I would driver her home in my agency vehicle) that she and most other took the brighton.
West of the terminal - a few semi run down blocks with low density run down houses. 3 blocks west - many empty lots and run down houses. Long commute times to the city, makes the property unattractive to developers and buyers. There are a few blocks of city funded new row houses.
How many trains per hour express? Going where (e.g., 6th Ave via bridge)?
How many trains per hour local? Going where?
If the Nassau St Line isn't the one and only local service, does it go elsewhere now or does it remain on the West End?
These questions are crucial to establishing how expensive a suggestion you are making. If perhaps you are talking 8 additional tph above those that already exist, it's quite a bit of money.
Why?
Most riders would have to transfer another train at dekalb overloading already crowed brighton trains into midtown. Dekalb would be the first cross platform transfer to midtown brige service
Most west end riders want midtown or china town.
According to the Times, the MTA took rider surveys before coming out with the current plan. They also know how many riders enter at each station. For Metrocard riders, they can also figure out where those riders enter the subway on their next trip, which is usually the destination of their previous trip.
Arti
Arti
If I could get to where I'm going from there, hell, I'd prefer the Bowery station. Never did like Grand Street. Seems barren somehow. Don't like the platforms there either.
Actually, in the past 10 years, I've used Bowery much more often than Grand St. If I need to go from the Lower East Side to lower Manhattan (which I occasionally do), Bowery offers me a single seat ride and Grand St doesn't offer me anything.
It's not as unused as it used to be. I've never been there without well over a dozen other people. I suspect it's more heavily used than the downtown Rector Street 1 platform.
Agreed. There are M riders who would rather take a B/D to Grand St. But Metrocard data can tell the general destination to which the riders want to go. It might say Canal St. or Bowery when Grand is the actual preferred destination, but it isn't going to say 6th Ave and 42nd when the preferred destination is City Hall.
All I'm saying is that the MTA already has a lot of data about where West End passengers want to go, both Metrocard and survey data. They don't need to take a poll; they've already done it.
By the way, I agree with you about low M usage. I was just at Broad at 5:30 last night. The M leaving there heading southbound had not a single standee in the last 3 cars.
I've seen E trains in the morning rush at Lex about which the same could be said. The first 3 cars were a different story entirely.
I have a pretty good sense from the lack of crowds in the stations that the front car of this M were pretty empty too. I got off immediatey at Broad and didn't see many people entering any cars. It would have been more scientifically accurate for me to be closer to the middle of the train, of course.
I'm also all for trains with seats on them, but only when I'm riding them and not for other people.
Seriously, we can't afford to have lines that consistently have empty seats in the rush hour on the most crowded section of the line. Even in a full (not crush loaded) car only about 1/3 of people have a seat. And every rush hour train costs close to $10 million and is operated by a crew that works about 8 hours. So every ruh hour train is expensive. If rush hour trains weren't used extremely effectively on average, the $2 fare would look really cheap.
It is the slowest of the four options even if you transfer to the IRT and have to walk through atlantic terminal to get the 2/3/4/5
The walk time is offset by the wait time for the M at dekalb or atlnatic.
Plus unless you work upstairs at 20 broad street or NYSE you have to walk a few blocks to get where you work because most buildings around the M in lower manhattan are now residential,
Not to mention all the barricades around NYSE which slows you walk over to Broad street station
Money could be spent better on other services such as west end express.
How can it? That would mean that to break even at a $2 fare, 5 million people on average would have to ride every train in rush hour. Seeing as a train only has a capacity of 2000 or so, that's some feat!
In other words, if every trunk line in Manhattan ran at half its capacity, there would have to be about 675 million riders at rush hour to break even. Seeing as that's nearly three times the population of the USA, that's pretty amazing!
My guesstimate would be closer to $1,000 than $10,000,000 to run one train for one rush hour.
How can it? That would mean that to break even at a $2 fare, 5 million people on average would have to ride every train in rush hour. Seeing as a train only has a capacity of 2000 or so, that's some feat!
The capital cost of every rush hour train is around $10 million. At 5% interest, that generates an expense of $500,000 per year or about $1600 per day (counting Sat plus Sun as 1 day).
If it's needed because otherwise people can't really fit on the trains and do something counterproductive like driving instead, it's a worthwhile expense. It only averages $.25 per passenger or less. But if all the people on that rush hour train could comfortably fit on another train, it's a lot of money spent to no useful purpose and just drives up fares or taxes eventually.
The question is whether riders would pay an extra 10 cents or so for less crowded trains.
My boss and I would get down to the station at 5 PM sharp ( I worked at 20 broad directly in front of the station)
The first train came 5:08. If there was 30 people on the platform waiting in both directions it was alot.
The trains would pull in virtually empty.
The M service to brooklyn is a big waste of time. Most riders who board the M along the sea beach transfer at dekalb for the brighton line over the bridge or the broadway line at Pacific street
The money wasted on running the M to brooklyn could be spent on enhanced west end service. There are people wanting to live in the area between bay parkway and CI. There is a large asian population moving into the area. There is a large asian suppermarket at 25th ave and 86th street. The areas around bay 50th looks like a no mans land.
The M is useless in brooklyn.
The M should be cut back to broad street at all times. Not sure what the situation would be with turning the trains though
Why is that?
I haven't seen anyone on Subtalk posting actual rider survey results. I also don't recall anyone posting observations about how West End riders behave. Lots of speculation, but no obervations.
With the manhattan bridge closed and access to grand street from the west end not available, the M had a station close to the old grand street station that was a substitute for asian riders. They instisted on 24 hour service
The average west end train rider uses the west end service to get to
grand street china town or mid town Manhattan.
As far as downtown service goes, Broadway is far more usefull then Nasau service. The only stop near major office building is Broad street which leaves you on the block of the NYSE. I worked at 20 broad street for 2 years in the late 1990's the trains during rush hour barely had 50% of the seats full.
Fulton street is a major transfer point but if you want the lex or 7th ave lines it would be far easier and a quicker ride if you transfered at atlantic ave pacific street.
Exiting and entering Fulton street is a maze
Many of the older office building that dominate the area are being redeveloped as apartments.
The Broadway line in lower manhattan makes over 5 stops in front of major office properties.
Whitehall street - Newer office buildings along water street including 55 water the largest office building in the world(square footage wise), One new york plaza etc.
Rector street - 2 blocks west of broad street.
Courtland street WTC- the new WTC plus other newer office buildings not suitable for residential conversion.
Even before 9/11 older downtown buildings were being converted at a fast pace to apartments. This pace of conversions was slowed by the dot com boom but has resumed. The M makes two stops in the business district, both are in the area of older buildings.
The M did not run on the west end until about 1996
Adequate service is not being provided to west end cutomers along the 86th street corridor and on towards CI. The lower ridership data for the relative denseness of the area is quite evident. My assertion it is not spending it's limited funds correctly. How else would you describe operation 8 75 ft cars with long rider unfreidly 10 plus minute waits nights and weekends. The current service pattern is not effective and deters ridership and developement downline.
Take CI and brighon beach as examples. Along the brighton beach and Ocean Parkway stations there is a huge demand for housing by memebers of the rusian community that have risen to the middle class and are having a hard time finding suitable housing. Many of these people work in manhattan and want to live close by to there parents and freinds.
The boardwalk is filled with cafe's and resturants. Brighon beach ave is filled with a miix of both local and national retailers. Although Stillwell terminal is two stops beyond Ocean parkway, there are huge delays between ocean parkway and stillwell terminal
Take a look at the area directly west of still well terminal and the amusement parks. many empty lots, eun down homes. Plenty of room to accomedate market rate developement but the poor transit precludes this developement. The same can be said about bay 50th street station
My comments including the possible addition of an 18th ave express station should indicate that begining an express service should coincide with other technology upgrades of the west end line to reduce operating costs.
THE MTA IS NOT PROVIDING ADEQUATE SERVICE TO THESE AREA's.
"If residents of the West End corridor don't like the service that can be reasonably made available on a line with moderate usage a significant distance from the CBD, then they're more than welcome to move elsewhere, to a line that can support express service or closer to where they work."
The reason the usage along the west end is low is exactly that. People have moved elsewhere leaving a serious void in the stability of the neighborhood in the form of little private developement along the 86th street, still well coridore. Unlike other area where violent crime is a major issue. It is not a big issue in this area. Revitalization would happen quickly the adequate rail service would be provided
This moderate usage does not effect the fixed costs of running the line such as maintance, station operations, signalling. They do spread these costs among fewer riders making the average variable costs per rider higher. Increasing ridership would lower the average variable costs of operation without raising the fixed costs.
NYCT has the infrastructure in place to make the commute to the CBD shorter and more appealing to riders making the downline areas more attractive to manhattan commuter. They should be providing this essential service.
Maybe the answer is upgrading the technology on the line to shorter more frequent trains. This would allow to both reduce headway and provide more frequent service with existing equiptment. My experience with the M from brookly to broad street would suggest that 4 -car OPTO could be run without ocercrowding conditions. The addtional crews and equiptment could be used to provise west end express without significantly raising the cost to operate.
Other upgrade's such as inteligent OPTO would also allow more trains to be run at lower costs.
Part of the problem with the way NYCT transit schedules it's services is that it does them in a vacum. During the 1980's and early 1990's the MTA had there own fishes to fry getting there operations to be reliable. It is now time to reconcider the one size fits all service scheduale that poorly serves parts of subway lines and stiffle's developement and neighborhood improvement projects in many parts of the city. Many people my age are moving out of the city to the suburbs to take advantage of more convient commutes
"Service between Broad Street and the south Brooklyn BMT network is needed, and the West End is the best place to send it, since West End riders prefer Nassau over Broadway for their lower Manhattan service."
Remind me exactly why why this service is needed?
There is no demand for riders going the lower east side from the west end. The Broadway local takes riders closer to the major office complexes in lower manhattan. The M service is not needed on the west end, the brighon or any other brooklyn line. I rode it during rush hour.
The few if any rider who want the M for point north of lower manhattan can change for the M at canal street.
Russians are more accustomed to use mass transit, as for rmost of them this was the only option of getting around (aside walking.)
Arti
Vlad
Arti
I just don't see the big deal about "art" in subway stations. To me, the art IS the station, and the system behind it. The perfectly parallel rails, the trains themselves, the dynamics of the passengers, the symphony of the rails. Art As Life.
In that sense, Chambers Street Station is an Art Museum.
Russians educated in russa have strong math and science skill and have made a wuick transition into the middle class in NYC. They took advantage of the generous education stipens alloted to then after the fall of soviet empire
Above all they want to ramain in the community. west end service is a discrace. It regards anyone living downline as not worth of a speedy commute to midtown.
They also love the beach. if speedy service would be available to manahttan from stillwell terminal, Development in CI would mirror the revitalization in Brighton Beach
True Russins myself included are fond of imports ! But dont do well with domestick Cars LIke F.ound O.n R.oad D.ead or F.ast O.nly R.olling D.ownhill !
LOL
many americans think of cars as a means to get from point A to point B. They don't enjoy the pleasures of a nice ride and good road feel
I am a beemer man myself.
Arti
Well im Subaru Impreza WRX ! LOL
Leeme say " That bich Got pickup " LOL
BTW what's a beemer?
Nick name given to the car Gear head such as myself !
Subaru impreza WRX " Hamster on Steroids " it might be small but powerfull !
That's ridiculous. That area has more than enough transit service. The upper east side has developed even though it's transit is so bad that it cannot accomodate all of the residents. There are other areas that have develped with poor transit service: a good part of queens. A terminal with 4 train lines running to it is VERY GOOD service.
There is no demand for riders going the lower east side from the west end. The Broadway local takes riders closer to the major office complexes in lower manhattan. The M service is not needed on the west end, the brighon or any other brooklyn line. I rode it during rush hour.
The Broad St. station is right there. What are you talking about?
Arti
The transit is there but it is a slow tedius ride to the city. One that I would not take on a daily basis. It is not comparable to a ride a 1 10 min ride on LIRR. Riders have to put up with constant temperature fluctuations.
The infrastructure is there. A better, faster quality service which would not cost that much to operate would greatly enhance the attractiveness of the area plus reduce the need for the 24 express buses an hour currently run on the x28/x38 which connects CI via cropsy ave to the city. Express bus service is the lost leader of NYCT operations.
The Brighton express is not a slow tedious ride, and the Sea Beach can make it to Pacific in 30mins. Making the West End an express will not suddenly spark development. Where would you get that idea?
I liked it. Very much. What can I tell you, brothers? It was good to live in a neighborhood that was, excuse the exhuberance here, "run" by "my people". "We" ain't got a lot of that in this town, talking about working people, so it always did my soul good to be there. I would walk from 20th Avenue and 65th Steet to....anywhere. Flatbush, Coney Island, Fort Hamilton, Downtown...all over. And here's a tip for outsiders: It's a Brooklyn Thing. It's like, you feel proud of where you're coming from. So, you can traverse other streets in other neighborhoods with your head held high, your steps confident and bold. You got that look in your eye that showed folks you WERE from Bensonhurst! Yeeupp! Church Avenue, Fulton Street, 86th, Kings Hwy....they knew! Nobody wanted to **c* much with Bensonhurst.
Uhhh, yeah. Got side-tracked. I agree, put express trains on the West End line.
I know that there are others, but these come to mind right away.
`course, I haven't seen much mention here on the possibility of building track crossovers (or maybe they exist already?) to facilitate express trains stopping at the chosen express station. Say a train from Coney Island could stop at Kings Hwy, roll onto the express tracks up to New Utrecht. Maybe go back onto the express after N.U. up to 8th Ave. As to whether the N would be local and express, something like the J / Z skip-stop runs, or another train would serve the passed local stops, ya got me.
I know it's impractical....sure would look nice though, seeing those trains moving snake-like over the tracks.
W runs at 9 tph and M at 7 according to the NYCT schedules. 16 tph should be enough to justify an express service on a line with 8 local stops and 5 express stops (if the express stops at Bay 50th and 25th Ave, which it can). That's very similar to the Concourse, which has 16 tph, 6 local stops, and 5 express stops.
The local and express going to different destinations is also true of the 4th Ave local. And besides, no matter which train you're on, you may need to change to a different train. You may want upper Broadway (which won't be served any more in 2004), or you may want an R. And if you don't care whether you go to 6th Ave or Broadway, you'll have a ton of trains to change to (16 or 20 per hour) at 36th St.
As for (b), you may be right. Voiceofreason suggests there's plenty of demand at the outer stations, but NYCT ridership surveys and fare registration statistics may tell a different story. After all, 2004 would be their obvious chance to introduce an express if they thought it was justified.
If West End local stations are only served by the M, they will lose direct access to all points in Manhattan north of Delancey Street. All passengers going north of Delancey will have to transfer
That's entirely different from the Concourse line, where the B and D both serve midtown Manhattan.
My understanding is that in rush hour very few people (those who really want a seat) take the R or N all the way from Pacific to midtown. I believe most transfer to a bridge train. I realize they save at most 8 minutes by the transfer, but 8 minutes is a lot for many people and makes it worth forgoing a seat.
I admit my understanding comes mostly from Subtalk postings. I haven't personally observed the patterns.
Anyway, back to the original point. Someone else pointed out that the local stops on the West End have considerably more registrations than the express stops. That's almost certainly why there's no express. The Astoria phenomenon.
I'm wary of that term, at least if it refers to the W being changed from the Astoria Express-Local to the Astoria Local, for Astoria peak express service skipped almost every station on the Astoria El; I'm not certain that the West End Express-Local would do that.
Use the metrocard discounts and unlimited ridership experience as an example of how offering a service that is more useful to the riding public attracts large numbers of new riders.
Lowering the express bus far resulted in an explosion of express bus ridership
Metrocard unlimited ride cards drew throusands of new riders into the system and changed the riding habits of coutless millions more.
Bensonhurst and the area around the west end is in a state of transition. 20 years ago the Itailian middle class began to move out in numbers to LI, NJ and latter staten island leaving blue collar Itailians who were less likly to work in manahattan. Over the last 10 years russian immigrants and chinese immigrants back filled the area. These groups education level has improved an is begining to work in manahattan. What is happaning is that they move to other area's sometimes out of the city due to the lousy commute on the west end line. New residents who work in the city choose to live elswhere pulling money out of the neighborhood.
West end express will stabilize the neighborhood and attract new middle class residents to this area boothing ridership numbers.
Also, there are 16 tph on the West End line in rush hour. That should make an average wait 2-3 minutes rather than 7, even if the trains are not uniformly spaced.
But I agree, with 16 tph, there ought to be a possibility for express service. The Concourse has express service with only about 16 tph total.
I wouldn't count on the express service wiping out the demand for the express buses though. I think it's the getting to it by local bus that discourages people. I know I sure hate waiting for buses that don't come particularly frequently.
The double wammy of waiting for the bus and then the slow train drove my girlfreind to the express bus. The cost reduction also helped make the equation more appealing
My commute involves taking a bus and a train. Heading to work I'll take the B3 if it's coming to ave U and then transfer to the arriving Q express. Coming home I get off at Kings Highway take the B2 because it is reliably there even though I need to walk 2 long and 1 short block from the bus. The B3 leaves me infront of my house but is unreliable kings plaza bound with waits up to a half hour even with 8 min service
PArt of my argument is the cost savings of cutting express runs to offset the cost of a few extra west end express runs but addtional ridership will materialize from blocks within walking distance of bay parkway and 18th ave stations if express servive was instituted. If you are looking for an apartment and work in the city you avoid apartments along the west end due to the commuter. Even though you would only save 5 min, it is a much more pleasent ride.
I wait for Q express trains at kings highway letting locals go chewing up the time savings because once aboard it is just more comfortable.
I have been studing this issue for years. My grand parents and aunt live near 20th ave station. I have talked to people on the neighborhood. My uncle would even walk to bay parkway(short walk from 20th ave) to catch the waiting M train. The extra walk time saved him the cold wait on the platform.
Personally, I favor seeing a West End Express-Local service pattern, as long as the local train is a Broadway Local. This would not only be a more popular option to 4th Av/West End riders than the Nassau Local, it would also give Brooklyn riders two B'way local routes into lower Manhattan.
62nd Street: Is lightly patronized, more local stations are more used than a lightly used station in a primarly mixed use area (factories on east side of station, low density housing on the north and west side.)
To focus the West End line justifying express, remember that lines have to cross-over south of Bay Parkway (i.e. the express train to Coney Island crosses over with the local train, shouldn't be a problem because it's done daily on the Parkchester IRT line in the Bronx and was that way on the Culver Line north of Kings Highway.) But the M having 10 minute headways will p**s off Besonhurst and Borough Park riders at local stations, that they will try to derail this plan.
If the upcoming D (assuming the 2004 service plan is in effect) line runs express and the M runs local, the M line must improve rush hour headways in order to make it more effective. And scheduling in the AM rush hour so that the D train on the express track just comes in as the M train is in the 62nd st station will have a positive impact on ridership on the West End Line.
Board the M train at broad street at 5 o'clock brooklyn bound. The train is Virtually empty. I wotked at 20 broad street for 2 years and when i rode home with my boss we wuld take the M. It was always empty. No more then 505 of the seats filled.
If they want to send one of the west end services to lower manhattan send it up the broadway local
most brighton express ridership(50% or more) comes from kings highway to the south. Some of these riders transfer from local stops. If you take the ridership numbers from stillwell to 18th ave, express service is warrented. 18th ave station is important because it would serve two important feeder routes. If 18th ave was converted to express stop, 20th ave ridership would plumit.
"62nd Street: Is lightly patronized, more local stations are more used than a lightly used station in a primarly mixed use area (factories on east side of station, low density housing on the north and west side.)"
The 62nd street station is a pass through station akin to church ave on the brighton. Riders at church ave bennifit very little by express service. In addition ridership numbers would be lighter at church ave if it was a local stop with some riders who currently use church using parkside or beverly road instead. These are riders who are almost equal distance from both station. I hear it all the time at prospect park, riders say since this is an express i'll get off at church instead of parkside(yes I am nosy, I am so board)
Southbound this station will act as a transfer station to riders wanting local stops and riders from midtown who want south bound sea beach service. The sea beach transfer is currently a trek. When this staion becomes ADA complient I would assume a direct elevator will be installed.
Once again the express service bennifts riders downline. This is as true on the brighton as it is on the west end. You build it they will come. West end Neighborhoods are zoned for high density housing. there are numerouse underdevelopmed plots of land in bensonsurst. Some have already be redeveloped from large queen ann homes, many have yet to be.
"(factories on east side of station, low density housing on the north and west side.)"
These factories are almost dead and there are preposals to build housing and/or retail construction in this area. The thorny issue of rezoning has been discussed in recent years.
""To focus the West End line justifying express, remember that lines have to cross-over south of Bay Parkway (i.e. the express train to Coney Island crosses over with the local train, shouldn't be a problem because it's done daily on the Parkchester IRT line in the Bronx and was that way on the Culver Line north of Kings Highway.) But the M having 10 minute headways will p**s off Besonhurst and Borough Park riders at local stations, that they will try to derail this plan."
Just throwing out ideas. A few extra trains per hour will needed to be added if the increased ridership I am predicting materializes. Can't some D trains be signed diamond D and circle D. The circle D would suppliment the local service. A better idea would be to run W trains through the tunnel and elliminate the M coming to brooklyn altogether. I have no knowledge of M ridership north of Broad street and don't know who many train could be elliminated by the shorter route and cars could be sent to suppliment W service. I do know M ridershio from brooklyn to broad street from 1996-98 was dismal. Post 911, there is even less demand as many brokages have moved to midtown to be replaced by housing.
Thanks.
Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island: (complex)
Bay 50th Street: 712,530/2,439
25th Avenue: 1,144,425/3,898
Bay Parkway: 1,799,643/5,986
20th Avenue: 1,266,071/4,159
18th Avenue: 1,278,318/4,291
79th Street: 1,377,616/4,732
71st Street: 1,222,812/4,207
62nd Street: (complex)
55th Street: 686,402/2,329
50th Street: 980,036/3,324
Fort Hamilton Parkway: 1,134,934/3,727
9th Avenue: 1,443,383/4,826
TOTAL: 13,046,138/43,918
David
Thanks.
Truthfully, riding at the closed Brighton and Culver stations isn't all that heavy (when they're open), and neither is riding at Stillwell Avenue (I'm talking overall here, not just summer weekends).
David
My own opinion? On weekdays, Stillwell isn't very busy and doesn't warrant its own express. On weekends, ridership on the W is much too low to support any more service than it already has, but replacing alternate W's with expresses would yield unacceptably long headways at local stations.
As for railfans taking buses -- I've been known to take the B6 from Avenue J near the Brighton line to the Sea Beach line -- but I'm one of those weirdos who actually like the Sea Beach.
Hey, Fred! Did you hear what this guy just called you?
By the way, David, happy upcoming Passover and may you have good weather for your holidays...
Most brighton express riders board at brighton beach, sheapshead bay or kings highway. The neighborhoods along the west end from stillwell to 18th ave are far busier. the express could even start at Bay Parkway. Many riders from earlier stops on the west end would transfer to the express.
By chance I was forced off the belt and drove down cropsy ave in bensonhurst. From Bay 50th to 14th ave there is numberous apartment building developments that could easily feed enough riders to justify express service on the west end.
Many of the residents choose to take advantage of the frequent(1-5 min) headways of the X28/x38 express bus vs taking the bus to the train at either 18th ave or Bay Parkway and then endure the 55 min. ride to midtown.
The X28/X38 runs 24 buses per an hour during rush hour. Thats is capsity for over 3000 riders over the peak of the two hour rush hour period. West end express would also spur addtional development along the west end in the bath beach and bensonhurst area plus draw more residents looking working in manhattan. Many people I know avoid apartments in the area due to the morbid West end line.
If a new express station was built at 18th ave, the express would be just as packed as the brighton express at that portion of it's route.
18th ave station would serve the
B1 bus line for riders along 13th ave and 86th street between 13th and 18th ave
B8 riders along cropsy between 14th ave and 18th ave who now take the x28/x38 express runs.
Bay Parkway
B6 and B82 serving riders along cropsy from bay 50th to bay parkway
They can often be widented to faciliated the adding of island platforms. Of course there is a cost involved, but the cost in many cases can be justified with additional ridership, increased property and income taxes collected
part of the problem is that many housing groups are only interested in providing more housing for the poor further putting a burden on the working and middle clases. The more genreous servies for the ultre poor the city offers, the more housing for the ultra poor that is created, the more poor people you attract from other cities around the area. The bloomberg administrations recently conducted a study of thse applying for emergency housing for the homeless. 10% moved to NYC in the past 6 months.
Transit could be used as a stimulous revitalize neighborhoods with faster commutes into the city. It is often quicker to get to the city from parts of new jersey such as edison, jersy city, hoboken ever as far out as willobrook mall then it is from areas far closer within the 5 boroughs
Taking the willowbrook park and ride express bus as an example comparing it to west end express.
Some willobrook express buses operate super express whos first stop is port Authority bus terminal and some operate through multiple local routes with various ammounts of stops. Without the super express reduces the travel time to 30 min from aprox 50 min(plus or minus a few min) the quick service to midtown drives up the number of people working in manhattan vs other areas with poorer transit access.
Riders along the local routes have somewhat longer wait times due to the super express. Eliminateds the supper express and you would significantly reduce downline riders at willowbrook and beyond
#3 West End Jeff
8-) ~ Sparky
They (the chevrons) also adorn the front of some Metro-North and NJ Transit trains.
For large image (which Imagestation won't let me post of link to use this link:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid58/p5151e989fc2e907a349d2c0270cf53ef/fc64aab8.jpg.orig.jpg
(although I think even the diesels would have trouble with that!)
They cannot go into the water.
Likely enough they will pust the pump car into the water, perhaps pushing it with some flat cars, but the locomotive will need to keep its feet dry.
As the pump sucks up the water the locomotive can advance.
Elias
---Brian
This photo is mixed with a whole bunch of New York subway photos, but it sure doesn't look like anything I've ever seen in old photos of New York. Again, it was with a bunch of NY photos from the 1960s, if that helps, but I really don't think this is New York.
So, where is this?
What is this?
Any other information would be appreciated, I haven't a clue.
Thanks guys....
Big photo here:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid58/p7f788f4454d05e4404f0c01f442e3466/fc64abb8.jpg.orig.jpg
Now the MBTA Blue Line. Those cars were retired in 1979 or 80 when their new "Bluebelles" were delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
-- Ed Sachs
Bill "Newkirk"
-Robert King
The oversized headlight was added when the line was extended over the old Boston, Revere Beach & Lynn narrow gauge ROW. The headlights were unique as they had no dimmer setting. Both the headlight lens and the motorman's window were polarized. The motorman saw a brightly lighted track ahead and an oncoming train's motorman saw only a dim glow.
The headlights were turned off in the tunnel. Boston did not (until recently) believe in headlights on subway cars. The cars had very small running lights, but no headlights.
Sorry to correct you, but the R-44's were the last cars built by St.Louie in 1971.. Those "Bluebelles" were built in 1979 I believe by Hawker-Siddely, who also built the PATH PA-3's.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll be there and so will another SubTalker...maybe we'll run into some more of the 'regulars' later on...
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
"TONIGHT IS YOUR "LAST" LAST CHANCE TO RIDE SNEIDIKER EL ON CANARSIE LINE!"
Where exactly is this station. Atlantic Ave and where?
Thanks!!
I don't think so Kev, those R-143's have full width cabs. That space is reserved for a certain railfan photographer from the Los Angeles. You haven't seen him here on SubTalk for a while, have you ? Rumor has it he's donning a business suit, putting on some makeup, mustache and glasses and is going for cab ride as Larry Reuter !!! LOL
Bill "Newkirk"
HOPEFULLY there will be pictures of the last trip, and even more so the three card monty with the steel work. With or without benefit of a telephoto lens to nab it as camera moves away from the site in the back of a radio cruiser. Heh.
if so damn i was there today and did see four cranes set up around the area !
there goes another chapter in the Nyc el history !
OR
Another piece of the old BMT bites the dust !
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
Robert
LOL!!!
The Snediker El isn't going out easily!
Maybe I'll still have a chance at a 4th "last" trip (not that I plan too). It looks like it has at least a week to live AGAIN. I would assume that they would need the entire weekend to do the final connections, so I'm sure that if they didn't start on Friday night, the el gets to live another week.....
Robert
-Stef
-Stef
Not this weekend ! REPRIEVE...REPRIEVE...REPRIEVE...!!
I heard that Memorial Day weekend Snediker becomes circumcised for good. Maybe we should have a SubTalk farewell on the final night on Atlantic Ave. We'll have a farewell dinner on the platform, everyone brings a Subway sandwich and soda. Maybe we can have a three piece string band playing those old favorites the night the Titanic took on water !! LOL
Bill "Newkirk"
The HBLRT does have strong echos in parts of what a new BMT line opening must have felt like. Riding this line now, IMO, keeps that spirit alive. Think 30-40 years from now. Remember those pictures of the Flushing line through Sunnyside? Or the south Brooklyn lines?
More Old Brooklyn feelings the line gives me: it passes by and terminates at Manhattan (and, by ferry transfer, Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens!) ferry docks. This is decent stuff, when it comes to getting your mind off bad news.
The factors in favor of the razing the Myrtle south of Broadway were the age of the structure (then about 80 years) and an alleged drop in el train traffic over the previous decade. Remember this was an unimproved 19th century el (pre Dual Contracts) that probably would have required major structural work to remain in service. In 1958 the Myrtle was given a facelift and complete painting after the TA decided against razing the structure. Ten-plus years later things changed.
You are right that the BMIT experimental lightweights built in the mid-1930s were designed for both subway and el service, since many parts of the old BMT el system was built prior to the Dual Contracts and not rebuilt later on for steel cars - notably the els on Fulton St., Lexington Ave., and 5th Aves., besides the Myrtle.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - but wouldn't it have been nice to have the BMT Myrtle El still crossing the Brooklyn Bridge, then crossing Park Row and taking the IRT Third Ave. el up to Bronx Park, going straight through mid-Manhattan. What great tourist attractions! In Chicago, the Loop L has become a major attraction in its own right - a great way to see the city up close, and still in daily use since 1897!
I wonder also. I'm assuming they may have looked like a lightweight verion of the R38 (it was around that time-just think of the order after the R39s----imagine a cross between the R38 and the R40!)
Seriously though, of course they would have been IRT sized because that is what the sized of the old BMT El cars were. The stations at Central, Knickerbocker, Wyckoff, Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond, and Metro of course are built for BMT sized cars. When the old trains ran at those stations, they had little extenders on them under the doors because of those stations. I assume the R39s would have had to have them also.
The old stations should have been restored; they would have been landmarks in thier own right. And,most importantly, the line would have been still around to provide quick and reliable public tranport,
The old el would have no doubt lost their stations, and would proabbaly have had a renovation on the scale of the Franklin shuttle.
See here for some photos of the Myrtle El in it's final days. They are great photos and very much worth a look. They are very artsy, and show the grunge, and oldness that must've made the Myrtle El great.
I would have loved to see Brooklyns Lexington Avenue el in operation. That must have been a pretty cool view from the rfw, as the train would turn off of the Broadway el structure and head down Lexington.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Then they had a R32 on the Express side just waiting there for about 5-10 mins.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
hope this helps
1) Graffitti wash.....That alkaline wash to remove grafitti helped start the rusting process of Redbirds. The Low-v, Standards and Triplex's didn't have a graffitti problem, they were built like a tanks, made of steel. I suspect that the alkaline wash may have contributed to the steel roof rust problem with the R38-42's. There is a rust problem in those roofs. Of course the R-32's escaped this.
2) Anti graffitti polyeurothane paint..... that high gloss super tough paint used on Redbirds etc. is known to inhibit moisture. Moisture + exposed steel....mucho rusto !
Bill "Newkirk"
Frank Hicks
I don't think the T.A. uses the alkaline wash anymore. It was used at the height of the grafitti problem of the late 1970's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, they chose a cleaner to remove lacquer base paint. It had to strong to do that. Ivory soap sure as hell wouldn't have !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
This is one of those problems that actually could be solved with a little planning. And, probably not "too much" capital. ST does pass by almost all the LIRR stations in Suffolk. I'm not even talking a digital solution. Get the hardest part over with first. Revamp all the schedules to offer reasonably good interchange with scheduled trains. The logistics planning would be complicated but surely nothing too difficult to undertake.
One example: The S42 last bus out of Central Islip is at 17:00. There are three or four eastbound trains arriving there for the next hour or so. So why not schedule a bus or two AFTER 17:00 geared for the commuters? The taxi situation at the station is chaotic; it resembles the dollar vans pickup jumble at Kings Plaza or Jamaica. I've ridden cabs from the station at those hours. Plenty of folk are going in the same direction as the S42 follows, i.e., in the quadrant of Suffolk Ave., Islip Ave, SSP and Carleton Avenue. And most of `em ain't encumbered by many bags and packages. They're commuters, with papers and that's about it. So the bus option wouldn't be any hassle for most.
Another non-technical solution: Detailed signage. A few stations have the right idea. Farmingdale, Hicksville, Babylon, Mineola are some that come to mind. The stations have bus schedules prominently posted in accessable areas. But it's not sufficient if you're seeking a comprehensive display of the connecting services. The art of sign printing is pretty advanced. All weather metal signs can be printed on with great detail and yet be easy to understand. I get the feeling if ST could only attract a few "fans" of the technology, people who are well aware of the current SOTA in transit, there could be a fresh approach to the countys' transportation options. As it is, the county looks at the current ridership and can't project much how intelligent usage of the infrastructure could increase the attraction of taking the bus out here. Even with, gasp, people who are car owners.
This is very dangerous stuff since it becomes flammable when mixed with water. Due to a forecast that included rain or drizzle it could have developed into a serious situation.
Fortunately Fire Chief Greg Anciewicz was on his lawn getting his mail when he noticed the plume eminating from the back of the truck. He got in his chief's car and caught up to & stopped the truck before further damage.
This occured less than a mile from my house and I understand that there were some major detours because of the situation.
If the penalty is not too severe, any cop who wants to search by bag will be getting a nice "f**k off" from me. Going to jail for a few hours wouldn't bother me unless I had stuff to do. Either way, I'm sure as hell not giving them an easy time going through my stuff.
The penalty is probably being removed from the transportation facility you are on and escorted to the street.
If you ask most people it is a small price to pay for safety. The people it would piss off is those carring illegal items such as drugs, guns(legal in GA?) or bombs.
We don't live in the same world as the framers of the constitution. They could not have imagined people blowing themselves up.
Some palestinenes commit suicide bombs so there family could have a better life. They get paid hansomly by the likes of osama and MR husain
Arti
The assumption being made is that people don't want to consent to searches because they are carrying something illegal. What if a girl is going home after having purchased a variety of sex toys... or a guy is going to visit his girlfriend with a bag full of x-rated movies and sex toys. Some things might be simply embarassing to reveal to strangers - NOT ILLEGAL
That is what is always said by those who do not think the 4th Amendment is important. You are arguing that such searches are reasonable, I disagree and I do not like the idea that if someone in government does not like me, I may have to submit to a search of everything I am carrying every time I step onto some mode of public transportation. Your faith that those charged with enforcing the law will always act with nothing more than the most noble of intentions is touching. You are lucky to live in such a Utopia.
OTOH, we have had signs like that on public transportation in Los Angeles since shortly after September, 2001, and I have never seen or heard of a search being done. Then again, I am not a young black man.
Tom
Very thoughtful post, you covered much ground in a few sentences. I've always found it interesting that people assume "... those charged with enforcing the law will always act with nothing more than the most noble of intentions is touching. You are lucky to live in such a Utopia". Yet when they are subject to an intrusive and harrasing search, they are the ones to yell loudest. You also hit the nail on the head with "... I have never seen or heard of a search being done. Then again, I am not a young black man." It is an unfortunate fact that double standards are more the rule than the exception.
Yet it is also true that in the post 9/11 world, danger is closer to us than ever and many people are willing to give up many of the liberties set down in the bill of rights. This issue is truly complex and even I find that my feelings change frequently.
Ben Franklin said it best: "Those who would trade essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve NEITHER liberty nor safety."
If you ask most people it is a small price to pay for safety. The people it would piss off is those carring illegal items such as drugs, guns(legal in GA?) or bombs.
We don't live in the same world as the framers of the constitution. They could not have imagined people blowing themselves up.
Some palestinenes commit suicide bombs so there family could have a better life. They get paid hansomly by the likes of osama and MR husain
The suicide bomber who struck us troops was given $32k a rather large sum in a country like iraq.
Vlad From Broolyn !
That may be right. Unfortunately, the "peer pressure" which affects most cops involves chipping away at civil liberties, treating everyone as a potential terrorist.
The department of Homeland Security cannot order MARTA to do anything. But MARTA would want to follow some useful guidelines.
There are many government facilities where searches are a reasonable expectation - airlines, government buildings, museums, and stadiums or clubs where they do not want you to bring in drugs or alcohol.
"My question is, what is the penalty for not allowing a pig to search your bag?"
The tone of your question, and your crude condemnation of a police officer who must do his/her job as best as possible does not lend credence to your complaint. I would hope you could take a more mature approach to your concerns, and treat others, who did not make the rules but must follow them, with the same respect and understanding you want them to show you.
And if not, the slap of a billy club upside the head will do wonders as an "attitude adjuster"!
And a cop doing that would do wonders for my wallet.
There is nothing to fear.
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
The same was said in Germany about the Gestapo and in the Soviet Union about the KGB - and, I don't doubt, in Iraq about the Republican Guard.
Franklin put it best: "He who would sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So what they are doing is giving you notice that, having entered onto their property, you may be subject an inspection. That notice alone my deter some illicit stuff in your bag, and if they feel they have cause to inspect your bag, they do not need further excuse or warrant to do so.
Your resistance, in and of itself then becomes a cause for detention and further investigation.
Officers have many things to do, and will likely not bother people at "random" without some other underlying cause or suspicion.
All that being said: It still suc#$.
Elias
If I am going somewhere like MoMA, and they want to inspect any bags I might have, I have no problem with it. My consent is implied when I go there, and I can plan ahead what I will and will not bring. But when I am entering public property, such as a subway, I will politely refuse any inspection without legitimate legal cause. If they want to "detain" me, I know my rights, and there is nothing they can do about it but harass you for a little while.
Our country is going down the tubes, and unwarranted searching and surveillance undermines freedom.
Please e-mail me and tell me about your experiences there.
How 1960's of you.
Afraid they will find your love beads.
Private searches by rent-a-cops aren't covered by this (i.e., if you're going to a concert, the security guy can frisk you, but he's under zero legal obligation to report the bag of weed in your jacket), but in the US, the police can NOT just stop and search you, and it's not reasonable at all to expect, or accept it.
It's amazing how many otherwise rational people accept the multitude of intrusions into everyone's lives for stupid and even totally baseless reasons.
In case you're thinking of going to Edgefest or any other rock concerts in Canada, I'll let you know now that the rules are quite different here. You'd probably be kicked out of the event and possibly (however very remote) even arrested if the rent-a-cop's determined to make you miserable.
>:)
-Robert King
You are absolutely correct. However, the authorities can make transportation facilities available only to those who consent to being searched. This is true of planes and a system operator could apply it to subways if they chose.
And to let everyone know. I DO NOT carry around anything that could get in trouble. It's the principle of the matter. If you let go of a little freedom for one second, you'll NEVER get it back.
Homeland to me sounds like something right out of Paul Gobbels' playbook, not the USA.
Next thing you know out of Foggy Bottom, Right Wing Section will be replacing the Star Spangled Banner (remember, it has the ultra-liberal phrase "The Land of The Free, and the Home of the Brave") with something like "Amerika over Everybody".
I'm decended (on my Mother's side) from the Adams. Like John and Samual. I'll be dammed if the yo-yo's (like Ashcrof and a couple of others) are going to turn my country into something like Nazi Germany.
I'm a pretty quiet guy, but push me far enough, and you might not like what you get.
We fought a revoulution to run our own affairs as free men. There's too many down in DC right now who seem to have forgotten that. My local representatives feel the same way, and vote in Congress that way.
Oh, yes. I carry my digital camera regularly, and have taken bus, LRV and train pictures on transit/railroad property and from public areas.
BSM Baltimore Streetcar Museum property is right alongside Falls Road, and we've
kicked CSX cops off the property for hasseling railfans takeing pictures of trains crossing over our line. AMTRAK is right across the Falls from us, and their cops never bother us, or fans taking pictures of Acelas and AEM7's from the public road.
Also, what is the difference between WF and ML?
Read your first two sentences.
Long may they roll, and when they come to the ends of their lives, may at least one trainset be preserved somewhere.
wayne
Vlad
The next stop on this train will be kings highway please stand clear of the closing doors !
BTW, was 4178 running on the F on that August day in 1968? You said you wouldn't take an E under any circumstances. Then there was 9/11/73.....
wayne
Or use URL: http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/ny-bc-ny--mtascheme0404apr04,0,5044164.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dmanhattan
The SDEIS indicates this was considered, but rejected. It was decided that MetroNorth riders would not use the Second Avenue in lieu of the Lex Express, so it would not reduce crowding. Since the spur service would have to merge with the T, it would only have 12 tph rather than 26, so the wait would be longer. The Lex Express has two stops before the finanical districts, the Second Avenue would have six. In addition, using the additional capacity on lower Second Avenue for the spur would eliminate the possibility of future service to Queens.
All of the that is true IF you only have a two track line. To really cash in the disruption and cost of construction, however, I think it would be worth it to put four tracks on lower Second Avenue. The Grand Central and New Jersey spur would be the express, stopping at 34th Street (so Second Avenue riders could transfer and go back to GCT) and then running all the way Downtown. No new stations, just two new straight tracks.
The RPA also wants the Second Avenue extended through a new tunnel to Atlantic Avenue, the out to Jamaica. It would bring LIRR riders to Downtown. The SDEIS includes a provision for this.
If express tracks were thus extend to Brooklyn, the express would bring NJT riders to Times Square and Grand Central, MetroNorth riders to Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn, and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan.
I will be writing in a response for inclusion in the record. I will mention expansion options as a plus.
It does rule out the express tracks south of 42nd Street; the SDEIS correctly points out that MetroNorth riders will not be pulled off the Lex Express without it.
It does make provision for the line to Brooklyn, and thus the possibility of the new tunnel and Airtrain extension that Bloomberg wants and the super-subway from the LIRR that Brookfield wants, and that's good.
Of course, the odds are poor that the southern half of the line will be built anyway. I'll be happy if we get the northern half before 2011, when East Side Access is set to open. Those improvments, the Flushing Extension, and perhaps MetroNorth to Penn are the MOST we'll get.
After 2010, payroll tax proceeds will no longer cover Social Security outlays. This will begin a long process in which virtually all publc money will be going to the elderly, and other public services are starved, until it is too much and benefits for the elderly are also slashed (around 2030). Nothing gets built after 2010 -- we'll be lucky if the system is maintained and normal replacement occurs. Better to fail to achieve a big dream than a small one.
We should be planning for this, and building what we can now. That's what "saving" now when you have a big workforce when so you can benefit later when you have lots of old people means. Instead we are BORROWING over the next decade and CUTTING capital expenditures.
Morons.
Bastards.
Liars.
Theives.
Note I also said the public sector pension disaster was coming, and wrote letters to the editor decrying the benefit increases and reduction in pension contributions in 1999 and 2000. The Daily News published one, that I know of.
You're right, I missed that one in my post.
"... the SDEIS correctly points out that MetroNorth riders will not be pulled off the Lex Express without it."
First: No forward-looking statement in an EIS is absolutely "correct." It can be judged more likely, or less likely, but it is not "correct" until events prove it out.
You've missed a few things: The Second Av Subway won't pull anybody off the Lex who's headed for Brooklyn, obviously. As far as other downtown locations go, I think it depends on where you're going. If you're going all the way downtown, you'll want to take the Lex express. Closer in, the Second Av subway will be a legitimate option. It will be the ONLY option if you are ADA-dependent and the Lex has not been upgraded yet.
In short, the SDEIS is being overly conservative here. I believe there's good reason to think the numbers will be a lot better.
Few is correct, you're point point to insignificant minority of transit users. At this point I'd suggest to stop nitpicking an focus on the bigger picture (usually your line :-)
Arti
Wrong, Arti. That's a significant minority of transit users. And, among them, are users who are now, appropriately, covered by a 1974 transit law regarding handicapped access (wnd also by ADA, which superseded it in 1990).
\" At this point I'd suggest to stop nitpicking an focus on the bigger picture (usually your line :-) "
Before you use that line, I suggest you do your homework and make sure you know what you're talking about. Contrary to that popular line, Ignorance is not bliss. :0)
I had my accent on the word MINORITY. Weather minority is significant or not bears no significance in democracy. There's a show on TV about significant minority right now :-)
Arti
In other countries, that is true. In America, it is not.
For starters: Look up the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, for starters. Read the text of the acts, and then look at federal Dept. of Transportation regulations which interpret ADA. Then post here what you've learned.
Other examples of why MINORITY is important IN THIS COUNTRY (you are living here, right? You're not back in Talinn, in case you need reminding) include the 1965 Civil Rights Act, which still governs today. Read it, too.
I think you'll find that very educational.
«You've missed a few things: The Second Av Subway won't pull anybody off the Lex who's headed for Brooklyn, obviously. As far as other downtown locations go, I think it depends on where you're going. If you're going all the way downtown, you'll want to take the Lex express. Closer in, the Second Av subway will be a legitimate option. It will be the ONLY option if you are ADA-dependent and the Lex has not been upgraded yet.»
1. You state as if SIGNIFICANT amount of riders would be pulled away from Lex because SAS is ADA compliant. If few hundred a day will use it because of that I'll be suprised (remember 2 avenue blocks from GC to SAS.)
2. What has ADA have to do with people with Brooklyn destination?
3. What has ADA have to do with few people who need to go from MN to mostly residential destinations south of GC, but not in Downtown?
So what kind of minorities are we talking about here, it seems to me that those few that use MNRR and need to go to residential destinations between GC and Canal Street. I don't know of any legistlation granting that group any privileges. ADA and Civil Rights Act for sure are not those, so I guess that reading them won't educate me on the matterr at hand.
On a side note, after you moved to KCK, you seem to be more confrontational, really that's why I posted at all (you may have noticed, I rarely do it lately)
BTW, have you happen to be at the mall in Olathe?
Arti
You're talking about a group of citizens who have never had full access to the subway before. So a few hundred of those IS significant, because they have been denied access to a vital public facility. Once upon a time if you were black, the same thing happened to you. Democracy in the US places a lot more importance on equal opportunity for minorities than anywhere else in the world. You're not in Tallinn anymore.
If you want to discuss this further, you should read the references I just provided you, instead of merely repeating your posts. I want you to be familiar with it.
"2. What has ADA have to do with people with Brooklyn destination?"
I said that people on the Lex in Manhattan who are headed for Brooklyn will not usethe SAS - so I think you and I are in agreement on that. There is no dispute there.
"3. What has ADA have to do with few people who need to go from MN to mostly residential destinations south of GC, but not in Downtown?"
How many Lex stations south of 42 St are ADA-compliant? If you are in a wheelchair, have difficulty with stairs, have a child in a stroller, or heavy bags, you can't use the subway to go to those areas. The SAS at least would allow you to do that. You get off MetroNorth at GCT,and go to the SAS. People travel one full block now to go from Penn Station to the 6th Av lines or PATH. It's not a big deal.
"On a side note, after you moved to KCK,"
I actually live in KCMO, and work in Johnson County - Olathe is the county seat there
" you seem to be more confrontational, really that's why I posted at all (you may have noticed, I rarely do it lately) "
Yes, I am challenging you directly on posts which show very little sensitivity or understanding about a significant group of people. Subtalk, by the way, does host a lot of posts which show a keen interest in the trains themselves (color schemes, grab bars, type of wheels etc.) but little interest in the people they serve.
Subtalk is a forum, a boxing ring, a game, or a place to commiserate (sp?), all at once. Whatever goes on here stays here, as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't apply to off-line communication or relationships.
Are you really that thin-skinned that you can't handle it? :0)
I haven't been to the Olathe mall yet, but I've been to more of Costco and Walmart lately than in the last twenty years (my wife likes Costco and Walmart very much)
The sad thing to realize is that every subway station in NYC will never be ADA compliant, but hopefully, all of the key stations will, so it won't be that much of a problem.
Ronnie, Kansas is obviously getting to you. Watch out for rogue tornadoes. ;)
That's true. Some stations really cannot be modified with reasonable effort. I accept that.
" but hopefully, all of the key stations will, so it won't be that much of a problem."
I will be very pleased when the 100 Key Stations are done, but that represents less than 25% of all stations. I expect MTA to start work on a second list of at least another 100 stations after that.
"Ronnie, Kansas is obviously getting to you. Watch out for rogue tornadoes. ;)"
Iam still disoriented here. Which way is north? :0)
About the key stations that are expected for ADA access, is there a way to obtain a list of these stations on the MTA's website? I'm curious since one of my key stations, the Roosevelt/Jackson Heights in Queens, is currently going under a major reconstruction.
Arti
At the same time, if a local resident (property owner, corporation, etc.) wanted a station upgrade, including ADA, and was willing to foot part of the bill, the TA would be willing to cooperate and upgrade the station.
I've always wondered, has anyone ever studied, that one in wheelchair can actually travel from 1 ADA station to some random other. As we all know, in lot of those stations it is not possible to travel from one end of the plat to another on wheelchair. Are elevators placed, keeping that in mind? Somehow I doubt it, as I've never seen anyone in a wheelchair in the subway.
Arti
Then how are they pulled away from Lex? Also in reality, SAS being a Mmanhattan only line duplicated in it's full length by bus service, I'd guess people in wheelchairs will continue to use them, as they are more user friendly for them.
«3. The SAS at least would allow you to do that.»
Of course, but I think even 5 of commuters like that would be overstatement.
***The original issue was impact of SAS to MNRR commuters.***
«I haven't been to the Olathe mall yet, »
I'm just wondering if they still have the kiosk system running.
Arti
In other words, for anyone living east of Lexington Ave and north of 39th St, they will now have another way of getting downtown by subway, and will be less likely to take the Lex.
Some passengers who now take the Lex in the Bronx will transfer to the SAS at 125 St, if their work destination is on the far east side. Lastly, some MNR passengers will transfer to the SAS at 125 St, either because they work on the far east side, or simply because they want to avoid the crush at Grand Central.
For all these reasons the SAS will relieve crowding on the Lex at Grand Central.
Larry :"... the SDEIS correctly points out that MetroNorth riders will not be pulled off the Lex Express without it."
Ron: First: No forward-looking statement in an EIS is absolutely "correct." It can be judged more likely, or less likely, but it is not "correct" until events prove it out.
Arti
You're misstating the position. The primary position you've stated is correct; however the SAS will provide many secondary benefits. "Not supposed to," in this context, is inappropriate.
Big deal. Anybody can WANT anything - especially a think tank like the RPA, whose sole existence is based on pulling ideas out of thin air. Plus, they don't even have to worry about what their ideas will cost because RPA's own money is never involved. Maybe these ivory-tower planner types should step into the REAL world and consider the full implication of their proposals.
Consider a "concept car" as an analogy. It is a really cool car, with lots of "bells and whistles" and fancy features and the like - and you know that it will never see the street. But real cars you can buy will incorporate some of the concepts it demonstrates.
The RPA creates a "concept subway." It's up to all of us to see if some of those concepts (and others) can be implemented.
I must disagree. Planning for its own sake is NOT the way to go. If the RPA is going to develop plans - AND get paid rather well for doing so - then it has a responsibilty to its public funding sources to ensure that its plans are actually viable, both physically and fiscally.
The RPA is, in that respect, no different from any other community group (or individual) who expresses an opinion -- i.e., like everyone on this board.
The difference is, the RPA has legitimate expertise, and their views are taken seriously (which is not to say that every one of their ideas are implemented). They successfully opposed some of Robert Moses's more outrageous projects in the post-war era. We all owe them a debt of gratitude.
Robert
UAL went bankrupt, abrogated its labor contracts, and slashed worker wages and benefits. It's employees lost their defined benefit pension plans, and their 401Ks which were invested in UAL (it was 55 percent employee owned) are worthless. Lots of people think the MTA should follow his lead, most of them right wingers. Is that what you meant.
They argue that since the private sector is hurting and its employees are losing jobs, wages and perks, we civil servants should share the pain. In fact, it was just reported that the wage earned in the city fell nine percent year over year. This one guy who writes editorials at the Post and used to work for Crains e-mailed me that he was furious that TA employees were getting raises -- after threatening to shut the city down -- while everyone else was being hurt.
I had noted that some of the data he cited on the relative cost of the TA's bus service -- he had written an article pushing privitization -- weren't the whole story, and cited other measures of operating cost ratios from the FTA. He wrote back that he never had such positive feedback about a story, that people are furious and the MTA and the TWU.
People sympathize with public employee union arguments when times are good, and government wages look low. They hate public employee unions when times are bad, people are hurting, taxes are rising, and those short careers and pensions look fat. Like now. Kalikow could work for free, and it wouldn't cover 1/1000 of one percent of the cost of that pension deal in 2000.
Kalikow does work for free (for the MTA). So dd the previous Chairman. It is an unpaid position.
David
Yes, there IS a legal requirement that such positions must pay SOMETHING. Thus, the symbolic $1-a-year salary. (Mayor Bloomberg, who himself is paid $1 a year, even hired his own daughter for $1 a year.)
How about upperlevel managment belt tightening in general? It's all well and good that the MTA Chairman doesn't earn a salary, but what about all the VPs, adminiswigs and so on? Perhaps one Chairman's salary won't cover costs, but how about a good 30 or 40 high level report generators? I would say fire them, but in this already bad economy, the MTA firing or laying off high level admin people wouldn't be viewed well by Wall St or something, and we'd be even more in the crapper. Just spread the load evenly over all the admin people and leave the ridership, maintenance personel and operators alone for a change.
MTA executive salaries are not that high. Generally far lower than similar private industry positions. Does anyone have salary figures? From previous posts during contract negotiations I got the impression that there were few if any positions paying in excess of $200,000.00 annually. Compare that to private industry where upper executives in businesses losing money regularly earn multi-million dollar salaries.
Tom
According to the 2000 Census of Population, the average college graduate in the United States earned over $60,000. More than I did at the time, only slightly less than I earn now, and I have a graduate degree, 20 years of work and two plus promotions behind me.
According to the recently released occupational employment survey, the average worker in New York earns 29 percent more than the average worker in the United States. So adjusting for that, MTA workers in non-line positions are not well paid.
Lots of high level bank examiners at the Federal Reserve, where my wife works, earn more than TA President Larry Reuter.
What union workers have to understand is this.
Over the past 30 years, the pay and benefits of those with college educations or special talents on one hand, and those who are unskilled or even skilled manual workers on the other hand, have diverged slightly, to the point where they are very unequal.
Most people don't like this. Even lots of liberal-minded college graduates (like me) don't like it. But there is nothing to be done about it, since this trend has been driven by the decisions of millions of people (including non-college graduates) as to what to buy and who to buy from, to get the best deal for themselves, in the private market.
Where they can do something about it is in government. The pay and perks of public sector managers and professionals, therefore, has not risen the way that of private sector managers and professionals has. The pay and perks of public sector line workers has not fallen -- pay isn't always high, but no one but the super rich in the private sector retires in their 50s or 40s anymore the way government workers can.
The reality is that as a TWU member, you are better off than you would otherwise be, one reason NYCT has little trouble recruiting. Lots of people would love to have your job. As for the higher ups, they could generally do better -- unless they are lazy and incompentent and no private company would hire them. In fact, many private companies refuse to hire former public employees, so you can get trapped.
I always try to talk young college graduates out of public serivce. But if I was talking to a high school dropout, I'd say get yourself a government job somehow; it's the only way you'll get health benefits and a pension.
Suppose that, say, $250,000 covers an average high-level MTA executive, including his/her benefits package and matching Social Security contribution (and I'm being generous here; the average pay package is probably lower). And suppose you wanted to get rid of 50 such people. $250,000 x 50 = $12,500,000. Now, compare that to an annual operating budget of roughly $7,000,000,000, and an additional annual capital budget of $3,200,000,000.
But it would still be a good idea if it reduced the time needed to make a decision from six months to two weeks.
Another important change that would help many govt. agencies, would be to empower lower level officials to make decisions without getting approval all the way up the chain. In some places, a decision that the sky is blue today requires even a division chief to pass it by the agency director for sign off.
http://diggers.ru/img/metrogolden.gif
Below requires cyrillic font:
Ìîè äðóçüÿ ìîãëè óñòàíàâëèâàòü ãðóçîâèêè, ïîåçäà è ëîøàäåé.
Arti
vlad
I work at Rutgers and see the Engineering and Computer Science courses largely filled with foreign students. Graduate courses, doubly so.
Liberal Arts: full of Americans.
I shudder to think about what this means in the workplace/global economy 30 years down the road!
John
russian/ukranian ladies are very sensitive !
LOL
thanks
It makes one wonder how you learned the phrase, and if you knew what it meant, why you would say it to a hot girl.
Tom
It had to be the last Cyrillic font on the list! (Why on earth are DOS, ISO, KOI8-R, KOI8-U, and Windows so different when it comes to Russian?)
ñ ÌÀÂÌÀ òÕÓÓËÕÀ ×ÏÄËÕ!
home sweet home ! mother Russia !
Notice the "secret" subway in in Moscow isn't shown...IF there really IS such a thing. I saw a website on the Internet showing its supposed location (so it must be true it it was on the Internet, right???)
Cool! Can you remember the URL of this website?
The "secret" line ran, as I remember, from the Kremlin to the southwest area of the city (if the map was oriented with north to the top).
If I happen to find it, I'll post it here (AND e-mail you with it).
Again, sorry I didn't bookmark it.
Moscow Secret Subway
The "secret" line ran, as I remember, from the Kremlin to the southwest area of the city
Better still, this map shows one line to Vnukovo-2 and another to Domodedovo - remember the thread about pisspoor access to Moscow's airports? Pity Sheremetyevo isn't there! I wonder if anyone in Moscow is thinking about opening these lines to the public...
Arti
Why was this particularly dumb configuration and unnecessary duplication built and why aren't the last three stations on the éÚÍÁÊÌÏ×ÓËÁÑ now losed and trains run through from the æÉÌ£×ÓËÁÑ?
(KOI8-R Cyrillic encoding used.)
A big thank you for posting that URL...I've been looking for such a map for eons. Someone gave me the name of a place to purchase a Moscow Metro track map but that turned out to be an erroneous lead.
Again, thanks!!
How's that saying? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...???
It's cool to see that all the lines interconnect pretty well via the Circle Line. I think this maps shows the tunnel portals throughout the system.
I'm suprised to see that their subway has a complete lack of switches. Any service disruptions would be brutal on the busiest subway in the world.
as for finding it - they found me through a site I have with some subway info on it. it's just too bad i don't know russian so i could email them...
and that is just the routemap the realtrack map has more swithches !
wayne
From: http://www.nywf64.com/amf06.html
After they were converted to run over the rail instead of under it.
This finally puts to rest the argument. It was 1913.
til next time
wayne
since when ?
#132: R40 W Train @ Stillwell; 12/22/02 Sun
ps slant on the W that just aint right !
wayne
You do have a very Slanted view of things, don't you Wayne? :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Photo 2 comment...Great photo! That "thunderstorm" sky makes the slant even more mean looking than they usually do!
For those looking for car numbers; this was the "W" consist, south motor first:
(south)4165-4164, 4248-4249, 4329-4328, 4228-4229, 4294-4295(north)
wayne
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Is anybody able to get train sounds from NYC Subway?
I might get some for you !
Because we need those sounds for the BVE Subway Trainsets to make it as real as possible, like braking sounds, and take off sounds, and sounds you hear when you are in the cab. I do believe we need R40 Slant, R40, R44 & R62 Sounds,
R40 slant and 62s i can try to help you with ! you got an email i can contact you for emailing the sound files ?
Thanks!!! Remember we need, Braking sounds, Door Closing Sounds and Cab Sounds, if you can get them, thanks again!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Vlad
Da Beastmaster
This sucks, I was going on vacation this week, catching a 6:30am bus out of PABT and could have made that 5am trip on Monday morning :(
Anyhow you now know what the deal is on the postponement after today's CI events...
URL:http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-toke0405,0,858022.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dtrans
Maybe bush looking to spend Iraq's oil money could prepose restarting the project. Lord knows Iraq has the money once they restart the wells
The one stiplulation the rail cars would need to be built uo in platsburg. The candians would be estatic
I kind of like Baghdad Metropolitan Transit (B.M.T.) ;-)
I kind of like Baghdad Metropolitan Transit (B.M.T.) ;-)
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Save Da Slants
or at least the ta should donate a slant train set to branford or somethin !
I was probably on them earlier than this, but I rememeber the first time I noticed the slants. I got on one after school with my first high school girlfriend at my school station on a warm spring day around 1985 or 1986. It was a dirty R40, full of graffiti, orange interior doors (under all the graffiti).
I remember sitting down on the aqua-blue uncomfortable seats, with my girlfriend and she commented on the skinny doors. She then said, "I like this train, it's space-aged looking."....I had to agree. I wasn't a railfan at the time yet (although sure did like the subway already), and I just remember that so clearly. I was hooked.
Maybe I should have held on to her....she may have been a closet future railfan.....
i salute you !
Slants just kick @$$.
***Do not try this at home. It is not recommended to ride between cars. Dangerous. BAD!
I've done some between car rides as well, like a Redbird on the 7. It got me some looks but to hell with them. The air feels great past your face!!!
It's still DANGEROUS, THOUGH. Don't do IT!!
aint that right CC
heheheh
CC "don't sweat it time to test it" im talking about R40 lets drag race 40s with a camaro a we will see who could pull a 0 to 60 under 6sec i dont think a camaro can pull it off ! on the other hand An R40 rev it up and hang on to deal life ! YeaHaa !
lol
R40 Rock
I have not forgotten about the five car TTX wells cars for hauling double stacks.
Nice concept but you lose a whole two unit set of car for one bad traction motor.
The same thing happens with the TA's link bars, only they loose 4 or 5 cars at a pop. Then again they might ignore a single bad traction motor or two. :-)
By the way Dave, I sent a request to change my registered email through the feedback form but password requests get still sent to the old address(which is still alive but unused due to the extreme level of SPAM). Can I send you an email to request the address change?
Thanks
-- Ed Sachs
-- Ed Sachs
What are "blinker doors"?
Tom
:0)
Thanks for the explanation. How did they get that name rather than "folding doors" or "accordian doors"?
Tom
-- Ed Sachs
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
When I get to drawing maps, stations and additional types of rolling stock to be scanned, that is when everything will go into a website.
And the chase of D-39 on the Red Arrow Division still has seats available, so come on down and RIDE.
Here's the details:
Rockhill Trolley Museum is sponsoring a four hour fantrip over the Media (101) and Sharon Hill (102) trolley lines with a suburban Kawasaki car and line car D-39 on April 6, 2003.
The trip may be the last chance to photograph D-39 in operation as it has now been virtually replaced with new diesel line car #862. D-39 is the oldest vehicle currently in use by SEPTA and was originally constructed in 1908.
The Kawasaki car will be one of the remaining cars in the older paint scheme with the red and blue striping below the windows. This scheme is disappearing as the cars are overhauled at Woodland and then repainted in the new scheme.
The trip is limited to 45 passengers so everyone has a seat.
There will be a number of photo stops and opportunities for run-by's for the pleasure of those shooting video.
Come enjoy the warm (hopefully) spring weather in Delaware County.
>>>"Sunday: Generally sunny despite a few afternoon clouds. High 53F. Winds NNW at 10 to 20 mph."<<<
The cost of the trip is $35.00 for adults and $27.50 for children. All proceeds will benefit the Blacklog Narrows track extension at Rockhill, which was placed in service this past operating season. For more information, contact Gerhard Salomon at (610)965-9028.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A few seats still available so just come on down to 69th Street Terminal and be ready to board at 10AM promptly.
I'm driving down from Brooklyn in the AM, have room for three passengers, share expenses if interested call: 1-718-389-0979 or
1-347-306-2403.
8-)~ Sparky
I met up with SubTalkers Walter (whom I met on the SubTalk DC trip on Saturday), Keystone Pete, and Sparky. I got a couple photos of D-39 at 69th Street (one here) and a couple more at Fairfield Station, a couple blocks away.
Then I headed for home, but exited the MFSE at 30th Street to photograph SEPTA on Amtrak, since I learned on Saturday (when I took the train to the DC trip) that SEPTA was using the Amtrak part of 30th Street Station during this phase of their catenary replacement. Too bad it's a chitty picture; at least I got my documentation of SEPTA on Amtrak.
Boo, Rick Telander! You didn't stand on the wooden "L" platform at Addison Street and stare into an empty Wrigley Field because the outside wooden platform was replaced by a center concrete platform more than ten years ago. Was this yet another Cub fan fantasy?
Bill "Newkirk"
Somehow I do not believe it is part of the MTA's mission statement to provide future generations rides on vintage NY subway trains. They sometimes have to struggle to provide the current generation rides on modern subway cars. Maybe if they sold MetroCards with the option of taking the discount or paying the full fare with the difference going to a fund to maintain a historic fleet it could be done, but no matter how much we appreciate the vintage trains, it is not an appropriate expenditure to be passed on to the general riding public.
Tom
Preservation is fine, but operation of vintage equipment is another matter. Wells Fargo Bank has a restored stagecoach in their L.A. lobby, but when they want to move cash, they no longer hitch up the horses and load a strongbox in the boot.
Tom
When I was in New York about 5 years ago, I was on a #6 train as it approached Brooklyn Bridge. The T.O. (or conductor) announced over the P.A system: "Train will stop on northbound side of Brooklyn Bridge". I suppose the train was behind schedule and needed to make up for lost time. Besides myself, there were only two people in the car--a lovey-dovey teenage couple. They seemed shocked that the train wasn't going to stop right away at Brooklyn Bridge. I told them, "You're in for a minor treat--you get to see the fanciest, although abandoned subway station in the entire system."
As we passed through City Hall, I was pleasantly surprised to see all the chandeliers lit---you could clearly see the station details through the train's windows.
As I understand it, bulbs have been allowed to burn out, and the station is now dark. Has anyone been through it lately?
No seriously, I visited City Hall twice on the platform, once in 1992 just by itself as a Transit Museum tour. The second time was when I got many of these photos in 1998 on a "Day One on the IRT" tour, which was very very good. It covered, 91st St, Grand Central control tower, 14th Street .ocal platform, Brooklyn Bridge Local platform, and City Hall.
Those tours were great! I was sceduled to go on a Worth Street tour, and I thik Nevins St, but had an emergency that day, and couldn't make it.
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/westend/bmt-westend-9.html
--Mark
--Mark
I have been through there several times...
It *is* revenue track, and they *are* allowed to take you through if you ask. The do kick everybody off, because it *is* the last stop, and they do not want to haul your but all the way uptown if they thought you wanted to go downtown.... so they *are* trying to do you a favor by putting you off the train at Brooklyn Bridge.
Just ask politely, saying that you would like to ride the loop to see the City Hall Station, and they will usually let you, and if not, you can always try the next train.
AFIK it *is* revenue trackage (I found that out here, so take it as you find it.) and is therefore *not* OFF LIMITS to PAX.
Elias
Hmm...now I am not going to trespass nor do I recommend anyone else doing something illegal. But out of sheer curiosity, how would one be able to sneak into the station to begin with? It's not like the #6 train opens its doors when passing through Old City Hall. -Nick
I guess you would have to have the balls to follow the tracks into the station. NOT a good idea. When they used to have the tours we would take regular in revenue trains to the abandoned stations. The "Day One on the IRT" tour started at 96th Street ehere they made us meet at 9:00 one Sunday morning. When the group assembled, we boarded a regular 1 train that took us to 91st Street. The train would stop, the conductor would open one door, and we would all get out to the darkness, much to the astonishment of all the passengers on the 1 train. After a half hour or so, they would flag down a regular 1 train, which would stop, and the process would repeat itself. This was even more startling to the regular 1 passengers, as we all piled on from the darkness. The looks on the faces was priceless.
The same thing was done for 18th Street, and City Hall. At City Hall, the tour ended, and they flagged a 6 train that took us back to Brooklyn Bridge. Many 6 trains passed in the 30 minutes or so we were at the station, and the sound of screeching is almost unbearable. It is VERY loud. Being on that platform makes Union Square/Lex sound quiet!
I agree...you are just asking for a death wish there! I guess what I was asking is if you can see any of the old entrances/stairs that lead to Old City Hall, like from above ground. -Nick
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know that the line was first built in the 1870s. I also know that a small portion of it was always below grade level (The portion near Eastern Parkway, as an example,) and that much of it was at grade level. What is not clear is:
1) How far the open-cut portion ran when the line was first built.
2) At what point in time the grade-level portion was raised onto an embankment
3) The years the line was widened from two tracks to three and four tracks.
4. Where all the pre-Dual Contracts construction ended, and what was added during this phase.
From suth of Park Place to south of Church Lane (Avenue).
2) At what point in time the grade-level portion was raised onto an embankment
Between 1906 and 1908.
3) The years the line was widened from two tracks to three and four tracks.
From two to four south of Church Avenue to South of Sheepshead Bay, 1908.
4. Where all the pre-Dual Contracts construction ended, and what was added during this phase.
From deKalb Avenue through Prospect Park to south of Chruch Avenue, and from Neptune Avenue to Coney Island.
Apparently, the optimal distance between signals was determined using the R-10 (or maybe R-9 or R-6, I forget), but rail equipment has become heavier and faster since then, but emergency braking has not improved proportionally. So, it is argued that trains able to move faster but come to an emergency stop slower are not a good combination. The MTA felt that it was left with two options:
1. Update the entire signal system so that it may safely (as per the new definition of safe) be operated.
2. Make the motors on the newer car models less efficient so that they won't have acceleration that is too fast. I believe that many signals where the MTA determined there was not a proper distance were redone as well, particularly on the former BMT lines.
As relates to the original Williamsburg Bridge wreck, I suppose the argument is that had the J train been travelling several mph slower, the emergency brakes would have been sufficient to stop the train before it struck the M train ahead of it. Not having the T/O asleep would have doubtless helped as well.
In any case, I suppose the measure taken was appropriate. For example, an R-46 trainset accelerating up to, say, 65 mph (it is said to be able to do more) that had to be stopped by the trip mechanism would probably not stop in the distance that an R-10 travelling at 30 mph would. That model is not alone, either; many of the 1960's-1970's trains contain comparable power.
Are the trains from more recent times ordered so that they will have less powerful motors, e.g., R-62(A), R-68(A), R-142(A), R-143, R-160? COnsidering the capability of the R-46 (and R-44) cars to run at high speed, was the Second Avenue Subway originally designed to have advances in signalling or was that not a concern?
Are there any advances in braking technology that are being examined or that exist out there?
Of course. The most obvious method is to use track brakes for emergency braking. This would effectively double deceleration rates from 3 mph/sec to 6 mph/sec. Track brakes were used on PCC cars and were employed on the Bluebirds. They are used extensively.
Most rapid transit braking systems now employ disk brakes. NYCT is virtually alone still using tread brakes.
Building (or using) Better Brakes is a good thing...
BUT...
NYCT also has more standees per square inch and more seats that cannot restrain PAX in high deceleration stops.
In other words, make the brakes too good (ie good enough to stop heavy, high speed trains withing existing signal parameters) and you will be picking passengers out of the storm doors.
Elias
If the trains slows down two quickly standees will be thrown across the car. Not good at all
The 1914 spec was 250 feet. The specs were relaxed for the R10's to 275 feet.
Could you explain that is less technical language for us civilians?
Thanks for your help...
But yeah, the "inshot" arrangements didn't quite work out as planned. Then again there was "P-wire" also known as "P-you" ... the braking system that was actually based on a random number generator (the pins on the electric portions) ...
In order to do it, I'd need to reride the line taking notes out a foamer glass again in order to be accurate. There were certain places where you had to take care along the way, but the memories of specifics are quite hazy after all these years. One of these years, I'll try to do that. A bit too nuts on this end today though ...
Of course, the bridge is a no-brainer: wrap it uphill and work the air handle downgrade. It must have been more interesting with AMUE as opposed to SMEE.
Actually, it was pretty easy on the downgrade once you "setup" properly. About halfway down, you gave it a wee bit more and if the timers and Grand Street were in your favor, it was a nice smooth descent. It was Fordham, Tremont and 34th that gave me the willies, and the plunge down through 7th Ave (BK) and the timers between there and DeKalb (busy work and a half both ways) ... there were others but those memories were hazier as to eactly where. Gotta remember your "fast" stations or you'd say hello and goodby in the same sentence. Of course, if you overshot, it wasn't the worst thing that could happen years ago. Now, they COME for you. :(
But I've seen them opened up when I was working there and there's just a pair of contact fingers that contact the sides of the end of the plug. If it's in, you get electric assist. If it's not, you get straight air triple valve. With more than two cars, you WANT it in there.
Hey - guess what? I had a dream the other night that we met again. Know how we greeted each other?
"Moo."
"Moo."
Rim shot!
E.g. I think the R9 uses a 14" brake cylinder, which means
approx 7700 lbs of push rod force at 50 psi cylinder pressure
(which is full pressure for these cars). The car weighs about
85000 lbs, so for a nominal 100% braking ratio each wheel should
have a little over 10000# of shoe pressure, if all wheels had
equal weight on them. If the weight transfer calcuation shows
that the motor truck has 70% of the weight on it during braking,
then the body levers will be sized so the wheels on the motor
truck have 14000# of pressure vs 6000# on the trailer truck.
OK, I only had an R-10 set once aside from school car, and it was a WAA to get it out of the way at Concourse Yard (BPB usually made those go away so as to not pollute Concourse, but the one I had to move had some "issues" as it had gone there as an A that became a CC owing to a gummed up railroad). I DIDN'T like it a bit but it was bad ordered so I forgive the mess I was handed to move. Two cars wouldn't release so I did my bit to add to the traditional "clop clop clop" ... pushed it to the back from third car since the tail two were cut out completely.
My primary experiences with the 10's were as "geese" and since I would usually take the A *only* from 211 St, I often rode the tail car and can attest that frequently back in the early/late 60's when I lived in Kingsbridge, the "brick wall" effect as long as the "too much power" BANG-THUD was a way of life in the caboose. But in all sincerity, aside from being a goose, I knew little about them and really despised them in the condition they'd gotten into in the late 60's particularly.
I can talk at great length about the Arnines since I spent a good deal of my "almost a year" working THOSE. And yeah, they could be ornery. Since Arnine duty had to anticipate allt he problems you describe as well as others, I was taught by my instructors that holding a full serve was a REALLY bad idea and when you cruised to your marker, you'd go to full release, then pull a pinch so they wouldn't roll. So on my own stops, the TRICK was to get that release BEFORE the whole train brickwalled, then feed enough to clasp and lap it there at the stop point. Last thing you wanted to do was to pull after releasing more than 10 pounds or so. Guaranteed to make lawyers very happy. I had gotten it down to the required "science" so that once I had my light bulb, I could release and wrap it. They wanted you to run that way. You'd wait until you heard the release complete, wait one second, then pull.
On the few occasions where I got a 32 or a 42, the way I was taught to run Arnines would result in NASTY bucking, probably the reason why I didn't care for SMEE's and why I'd gladly jump ahead or fall back to take an Arnine off an unwilling accomplice's hands who just didn't want to take that interval, no way no how. :)
But really ... HOLD a full service? Never did that ... not even at Tremont. Heh.
Here's a conductor-related question: on those occasions when you had a train of R-32s, did you make your announcements while the train was stopped at a station, or did you announce the next stop once the train got going? When I rode on N trains on Saturdays in the late 60s, the conductor would announce the next stop after the train was already moving.
Selkirk: On the subject of electric holding you have it almost
right, I think. The way AMUE works is the R wire is actually
the DON'T RELEASE wire. It is energized in Electric Holding through
Service positions, and it causes the quick tcsshhh sound which
is the Exhaust Valve Cutoff Valve in the UE5's moving to the
Cutoff (Electric) position. When the brake valve is in electric
holding, the brake pipe is being recharged and the UEs pneumatically
want to release, but the R wire being energized keeps the cylinder
pressure bottled up. When the valve is moved to Release, the R
wire is de-energized and the air exhausts. So, an open R wire
near the rear of the train would actually cause the rear cars
to release prematurely, not fail to release. If the motorman was
using the technique of doing a full release followed by a quick
light re-apply to make the final stop, then the rear cars would
run into the cars in front. This is because with the R wire open,
the A wire, which causes auxiliary reservoir pressure to reduce
directly into the brake cylinders, only functions when the R wire
is also energized. So, the re-apply would take place pneumatically
on the rear cars and they would still be in release as the other
cars made their final stop. Just a theory.
Re Harry and R10s. There should be no difference between running
and full release as long as the B2 is OK. If some cars have
a magnet valve problem then full release may help them along, more
so if they are closer to the head end. Most of the dynamic brake
kicking and bucking on classic SMEE cars was due to poor adjustment
of the spotting current limit setting, so that when the brake handle
was pulled back and the 5 wire came on and the fields un-shunted,
the group was spotted at the wrong load resistance value, and
therefore the dynamic load current built up to an excess value.
Another problem was broken SAP transducers so that every dynamic
brake application looked like a full service request.
My understanding is that NYCT has decided to have neither occurrence. For now, they insure neither by slowing down the trains.
The TA's solution addresses only situations of which the signal systems is aware. It does not address situations that the signal system does not detect such as objects on the track.
My understanding is the same. In fact, there is a signal project underway in which the modify the signals to slow things down. A project to do so in "priority locations" is already done. But RTO is concerned about the lost capacity, and wants to study ways to speed things up again, if it can be done safely.
It is also my understanding that the TA intentionally made the brakes weaker, as a result of having lots of teens joyfully pull the cords to create fun injuries in the late 1970s and early 1980s, after which lawyers joyfully sued. After that created a problem vis a vis evergency stops by the stop arms, the TA had to slow the trains down.
Just another way the punks screw the rest of us.
One could have designed a braking system whereby pulling the emergency cord resulted in one braking rate, whereas going over a tripper resulted in a higher rate.
Did the TA ever consider that solution or has it implemented it on its new cars?
Intuitively, this would appear to be a good solution. The assumption is that pulling the emergency brake never occurs in situations where violent braking is necessary. This may well be true most of the time.
An even better way is to link the emergency cord and the trip mechanism to the CBTC system (with redundancies) so that every individual situation can be assigned an appropriate braking effort.
At 35 mph it is highly unlikely that even the best braking effort would save that person. Maybe at up to 15 mph or so it might make a difference.
That might work if you consider all cord pulls false alarms (in which case it would be better to remove the cords like L.A. which has emergency intercoms only), but it is probable that a legitimate cord pull needs faster braking than a trip. If the cord is pulled because someone is being dragged, or someone has fallen between cars and is holding onto the chains by his fingertips, you want the fastest stop.
Tom
It would appear that NYC has adopted the LA practice of effectivly eliminating the emergency cord from the latest models.
Mr. Jeff H has noted that it is possible to provide higher braking rates without injuring passengers. The method, a uniform braking rate throughout the stop, has been known for almost 70 years. Evidently, news of this latest discovery has not reached NYCT. Their response has been to reduce braking rates and maximum speed.
I personally hope that I never am subject to a braking deceleration of 6 mph/second while standing on a crowded subway train. Yes, it's preferable to hitting the train in front, or a person lying on the tracks, but that's the only good thing I can say about it.
Especially in a crowded train, you may be holding on with your arm up, rather than with your arm horizontal. The force on your shoulder socket can easily exceed your weight.
The problem is the force on your shoulder has to be your weight times the deceleration (as a fraction of gravitational acceleration) divided by the cosine of the angle at which you hold your arm.
I have been subject to the application of track brakes while standing in a PCC. I survived, here are some of the reasons why.
The force on your shoulder socket can easily exceed your weight.
Not even half that. 6 mph/sec = 6 x 1.47 = 8.82 ft/sec2
Gravitational acceleration is 32 ft/sec2 so the force that is exerted is 0.28 g.
The problem is the force on your shoulder has to be your weight times the deceleration...
Actually, its your mass which is your weight divided by g.
... divided by the cosine of the angle at which you hold your arm.
No, it is multiplied by the cosine, which has a maximum value of 1.
People can support 100% of their weight from their arms, while holding onto a chinning bar without injuring their shoulder. They can certainly, support 28% of their weight.
Let's go back to my encouter on the PCC. The application happened at the worst possible moment because I wasn't holding on to anything and had just started to walk forward from mid car. I was pushed all the way forward. Why did I survive the collision with the windshield without injury?
I went a distance of 20 feet and was subject to an acceleration of 8.82 ft/sec. This means it took 2.13 seconds for me to cover the 20 feet and that I was travelling at 18.8 ft/sec when I hit the windshield. This is equivalent to my terminal velocity had I jumped off a platform that was 5.52 feet above ground level. I've survived many jumps from that height as I'm sure you have.
Here your math is simply flat out wrong.
If I can hold onto a vertical bar with my arm horizontal, then yes all I need is a force of maybe 1/3 my weight. But if my arm is up in the air, I have to exert that force of roughly 1/3 my weight in an extremely inefficient manner. I'm not going to try to draw diagrams. But every subway rider knows it's harder to hold on when your hand is way up high, and the physics backs this up.
By the way, I never said I wouldn't survive a deceleration of 6 mph/sec. I just said I never want to experience it. I probably wouldn't even dislocate my shoulder or anything. It would just be very unpleasant, with a relatively small chance of actually getting hurt enough to need a doctor or a hospital.
I wouldn't mind a T/O having a braking ability of 6 mph/sec for life-threatening situations. I'm willing to risk being hurt in a good cause like a person on the tracks, or to prevent an accident. I don't want my fellow riders having it to use for fun, though.
Let's try a little sanity check.
By your assertion a Force f resolves into two orthogonal components. One componeent is fx = f/cos A and the other is fy = f/sin A.
Derive the magnitude of the original force from its orthogonal components.
f2 = fx2 + fy2
= f2[(1/cos2A) + (1/sin2A)]
>= f2
Help!!
OTOH, cos2A + sin2A = 1 for all values of A.
I wouldn't mind a T/O having a braking ability of 6 mph/sec for life-threatening situations. I'm willing to risk being hurt in a good cause like a person on the tracks, or to prevent an accident.
In this case, some golfer did not want to take a penalty and was playing his hole on the Highland Branch tracks which went through the golf course. His back was to the oncoming trolley. I don't know, if he made par.
I am holding on to an overhead rod at a 45 degree angle. I weight 150 lbs.
The train decelerates at 1/3 gravitational acceleration.
For me to stay still relative to the train, using only my arm, my arm needs to support me with a 50 pound force in the direction opposite the deceleration, i.e., in the horizontal direction.
So, I need 50 lbs horizontal force. But my arm is at a 45 degree angle. Therefore, the force on my shoulder socket has to be
(50 lb)/(sqrt(2)) in the 45 degree diagonal direction. This force on my shoulder socket resolves into the 50 lb horizontal force I need to stay still, plus a 50 lb vertical force.
It's easy to see in the extreme case. Suppose I am holding on to some rod directly above. Now I have no ability whatsoever to keep myself still during a deceleration. I can only exert a force in the vertical direction. There is always zero component in the horizontal direction. I can't resolve the vertical force into a horizontal component of 50 lb and a vertical component.
PS. There invariably is one problem like this on the NY State Physics Regents. It's one of the most difficult problems they throw at the students. Even the best students get it wrong if they haven't seen it before.
First, sin 45 = cos 45 = 1/(sqrt(2)) = 0.707;
the force along the diagonal is f cos 45 not f/cos 45.
I'll assume by diagonal you mean along the arm's axis.
Part of the horizontal force resolves along the axis of the arm.
The other part of the horizontal force resolves along an axis that is perpendicular to your arm's axis. It will be equal to the force along your arm's axis because you are working with a 45 degree angle.
The component along your arm's axis has a component that is downward and another that is forward. The component that is perpendicular to your arm's axis has a component that ths upward and another that is forward. The upward and downward components cancel, leaving you with a net total force of 50 pounds at your shoulder socket in the forward direction.
Let me suggest another way to approach the same problem, that might be easier to follow. Suppose you were standing at a pole, with your arm in the horizontal direction. What would the force be?
Yes, and a total force, in the actual direction my arm points, od 50*sqrt(2) pounds.
I suggest looking at a Barron's Physics regents review Book.
The entire analysis is flawed by the assumption that one's
shoulder socket absorbs all of the force in this situation.
Draw a free-body diagram, completely ignoring the issue of
rotational moments. Because you and the subway car are in
a non-inertial reference frame, there is a phantom force
acting on you, which in this example has been given as
50 lbs (150 lbs at a 1/3 g rate). The direction of this
force is horizontal. Since you do not accelerate with respect
to the reference frame (i.e. you don't go flying across the
car), then the sum of forces must equal 0. There are two
points of support: your arm and your legs.
Intuitively, your legs must provide some horizontal support,
because it is possible to avoid falling over during braking
when you are not holding on. However, let's completely ignore
that as you've done and focus only on the shoulder.
You've stated that if the arm is entirely vertical, it can not
provide any horizontal force. Since we know from experience this
isn't true, it must be the case that the model is flawed.
The arm is in fact two rigid members connected by the elbow joint.
It can not be accurately depicted as a single member. If you
are holding on and your hand is exactly above your shoulder socket,
then one part of your arm is in tension and the other in compression,
and your arm must be slightly bent.
You are, however, correct that if you were to model the arm as
a single member without an elbow, and it were being held at
a 45 degree angle, then for it to exert 50 lbs horizontally
the compression in the arm itself is 50/cos 45, or approximately
70 pounds.
Thank you. That's all I was saying. I was never claiming that I had a perfect biomechanical model. Stephen was disputing that simple statement of mine that you agree above is correct. He was saying it was 50 * (cos 45), not 50/(cos 45).
And remember that my original point was only that I would not ever want to be subject to a deceleration of 6 mph/sec while standing in a crowded train. I didn't actually think anyone would argue that.
Thanks for your point about the jerk rate.
I can believe there wouldn't be any serious injuries. But for a short person holding on above, they really will experience very strong forces on their arm and shoulder, because they can't hold on horizontally. And if the car is really crowded they won't have much leeway to use their legs to brace themselves.
Regardless of theory, in the practical application, unless you are swept off your feet, you lean against the direction of the force, and some of it is dissipated through your legs and feet, so not all of it is a strain on the arm.
Tom
True. But less so in a crowded train where I can't spread out my feet. In the extreme case where I have to stand completely upright, my arm takes all the strain.
Remember, I'm not claiming that serious injury will necessarily result from a deceleration of 6 mph/sec. Just that it could be extremely unpleasant, and injury might result. I'm just saying I don't want the emergency brake that anyone can pull to have that capability. I would accept the T/O being able to use it for life threatening emergencies.
We are talking about EMERGENCY braking. The choice is between people being thrown in the car or a collision.
Another interesting point about CBTC is that, with appropriate software, one could set braking rates for emergency stops based on actual speed and distance to the next train, braking a bit harder than needed to provide a safety margin. Emergency braking need not automatically be, regardless of situation, at the maximum possible deceleration rate achievable by the subway car.
Another interesting point about CBTC is that, with appropriate software, one could set braking rates for emergency stops based on actual speed and distance to the next train, braking a bit harder than needed to provide a safety margin. Emergency braking need not automatically be, regardless of situation, at the maximum possible deceleration rate achievable by the subway car.
NYCT's block system employs emergency braking as a last resort. The purpose of the yellow aspect is to avoid emergency braking. Emergency braking is employed only when there as been a failure of the onboard equipment (pilot error) or a signal system failure.
The same is true for CBTC. Emergency braking must be applied when the central computer or the train detects a failure on the part of the CBTC system. This is the case for loss of communication between a trainset and signal system.
It is also highly unlikely that emergency braking can be entirely avoided because there are situations that are beyond any signal system's scope. The most obvious example is some track obstruction that is not detected by the signal system.
The question is how effective should the emergency braking system be.
BTW, I'll invoke Goedel, if you wish to argue that there is appropriate software to cover every contingency.
OK, agreed.
"The same is true for CBTC. Emergency braking must be applied when the central computer or the train detects a failure on the part of the CBTC system. This is the case for loss of communication between a trainset and signal system."
Agreed. So what you are saying, and and you defined it better than I did, is that CBTC handles braking such that the most violent stops occur only as a true last resort - such as when CBTC doesn't know where a train is in relation to other trains.
David
However, what if you have the very unlikely event of a train car separating from the train and operating without an operator? In that event, either the brakes would have to deploy automatically, or the emergency brake cord would have to stop the train, because the T/O would no longer be in control of that car.
This is very unlikely, of course, but not impossible.
I thought of another situation -- activation by the Train Operator to avoid hitting a person who has jumped, fallen, or been pushed to the roadbed.
David
So, if terrorists take over a moving train, there is nothing a passenger can do to stop it.
That is not strictly true since a train can go BIE for a number of reasons when collision is not imminent. Perhaps the trip should cause "automatic braking" with another higher level (the "Oh Sh@#!" level) available to the T/O when necessary.
Tom
BIE can be caused by inadvertent loss of air pressure due to a pipe rupture or valve failure. Something like that occurred on a Washington Metrorail train I was riding in in March during a visit to DC. Why should that cause people to be launched like airplanes off a catapult?
Just because the *train* has brakes, does not mean that the PAX also has brakes! When a train is running at 40 mph, the pax are also moving at 40 mph. (duh!) When the train slams on the brakes, the train slows down, but the pax are still moving at 40 mph! What happens then is that the bulkhead rushes back to meet them (or vice versa!).
This is why you have seat belts in your car. In all my years as an EMT, I have NEVER found a dead passenger wearing a seatbelt. Conversely, of those launched from their cars, only one survived, and that was because she was knocked out. Had she been able to move she would have moved her head, and only too late would have discovered that her neck was broken in three places.
Elias
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
I do not follow your logic. Why would the price of a vehicle keep it from being taken off road?
>>> So I guess it was built mainly for show. Just like Range Rovers. <<<
You have to check out the Discovery Channel and National Geographic Channel more often. The Range Rover is one of the most popular off road vehicles in Africa, and has been for decades.
Tom
I'm well aware of that. I'm sure the ones used in Africa don't cost $50,000. Probably only in American are they luxury vehicles. In other countries, they probably cost the same as a Chevy truck. And that makes me mad. Just like Mercedes. In Israel, they use Mercedes' as taxis! And here they cost twice as much as the Ford Crown Victorias that we use as taxis.
---Brian
If I spent $50,000+ for a vehicle, unless money is no object, I don't think I would take the risk of taking that into off road driving risking all the off road hazards like rock dents, a tree branch scratching the entire side of the vehicle, low brush messing up the paint. I think many people do just but them for show, and a $50,000 vehicle doesn't show well with rock dings and scratches all over it.
I think you have just hit the nail on the head. Not too many people would spend $50,000+ for a hard riding, low gas milage, high insurance, hard to park, impractical truck unless money is no object. These are not purchased as 1st vehicles, but as one in a stable of cars. Out here, they definitely are used off road, and the more rugged the terain the better.
Tom
It is a cousin of the Land Rover, whose military version and its predecessors have served the British 22nd Special Air Service Regiment in all kinds of environments, for decades.
The subway equipment of today does not achieve 4.0, even in
emergency rate. There are a number of ways to increase service
and emergency brake rates without risk of passenger injury.
Note that CBTC buys you nothing, other than a very expensive
and complicated cab signal system.
One method is magnetic track brakes as Mr. Bauman suggests
often. These can achieve rates of up to 9.0 MPHps even in
poor adhesion conditions but they are very maintenance intensive
and can cause damage to track special work.
Another approach is hybrid ECP (electronically-controlled pneumatic)
brakes, sort of anti-lock braking for trains. The NYCT approach
has been (even on the R142 and up cars) that the emergency brake
is a purely pneumatic system that bypasses all electric and
electronic aspects. I believe you can reliably interpose
sensors and microcontrollers without compromising the fail-safe
of the emergency brake so long as you do it on a car-by-car
basis and don't allow a systemic failure mode that affects
the entire train at once.
The simplest approach is to install a small volume reservoir
and chokes at the J relay valve to provide some jerk rate
limiting, then nudge the pressure settings up slightly. Not the
best because you'll have more flat spots, but definitely cheapest.
Something does not compute here. If you run the cars at the speed the system was designed for, and the brakes stop the cars within the design distance (but not much shorter), there should be no more effect on the passengers today than there was when the system was designed, regardless of the change in weight of the subway cars.
Tom
Cars today have a greater mass, they are heavier, therefore require more effort to bring them to a stop within a given distance.
However, I guess you are correct if we are just looking at the net velocities within the vehicle.
Also, it would only be an emergency application that would require maximal braking effort.
Elias
But in terms of reality, I'd MUCH rather find myself on the floor with a chipped tooth than having to be extricated from between crunched metal. Personal choice there I s'pose ...
A very sudden stop actually would be less serious in cars totally packed with standees than in cars with smaller numbers. In less-crowded cars, people would be more or less cushioning one another, you wouldn't have a few hapless people go flying.
But you still don't want it to happen, because people can still injure each other. And you don't want Big Bob (350 pounds) falling over on top of petite B.L. Rina (98 pounds)
David
Using a single number for acceleration or brake rates is
confusing, because the curves are not flat. The original
R-10 SMEE spec was for both a service and emergency rate of
3.0 MPHPS. Those were minimum values, i.e. at the highest
speed (50 MPH), where the cast iron shoes produced the lowest
coefficienct of friction. The stopping distance with cast iron
shoes with a minimum rate of 3.0 is less than composition shoes
with an _average_ rate of 3.2
Bottom line is (especially at speeds below 30 MPH), the older
equipment stopped shorter in both service and emergency
from the same speed than the current equipment (even taking into
account the post-1995 increase of emergency rate to 3.2)
Do we also use lighter, under-powered cars?
I have an OLD post from here that talked about why the MTA is limiting speeds, and the upshot was that the braking systems have been reduced in the braking rates, because of complaints/lawsuits over 'hard stops'. Supposedly, the poster claimed that subway cars stopped better years ago.
And where does this conception that weight has dramatically increased upward over the years come in? The R-32, 38, 40, 42 and 44 are all lighter than the R4/6/7/9 were. The R-68 was heavy (at 90,000 lbs), but I think the R-143 is lighter. On the IRT side The R-12 and R-62 are within 3,000 lbs of each other.
The weight differences between new and old cars are nothing when you look at the LIRR - the M-1s were 92,000 lbs, and the M-7s are 125,000 lbs, heavier than the M-2s are (Although CDOT has been thinking a dual power MU order, I doubt it'd be worthwhile, or even technically possible - add another 10,000 or so lbs for the AC catenary support, you'd have a car that would seriously draw amps on a 650V DC third rail. The current cars are already dogs on third rail, worse than the M-1s are by far).
So Metro-North still uses 650 V DC? LIRR had switched to 750V by 1972, a decision made in view of the M1's arrival.
Since folks are oft' confused by what that "field shunt" was all about, I offer once again a link to a site that explains it all. I still maintain that they cut ONE wire ...
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
Down near the end ... (snip)
what do you think?
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? There's no track connection from the 2/3 to the Jerome Ave. line going northbound.
*THAT* is *NOT* where I would build the connection. I would extend the (3) from its present terminal, crossing the harlem river somewhere around 153rd Street and following Jerome Avenue west of John Mullay Park until the (4) lion catches up with it.
Elias
-- Ed Sachs
Probly cheaper to build something new, but yeah....
You made my heart skip a beat....up until the point after 200 St above, I thought this was some kind of GO for tomorrow. I thought for sure I would have to run over to the Bronx tomorrow to ride this!
http://www.railroad.net/forums/messages.asp?TopicID=11275
Indeed, me too. Of course, that's probably because a part of me feels strongly opposed to building any more trackage to A-division specs. I suppose that plan would cost a fortune that we don't have. Not to mention that residents are sure to object to elevated lines.
I'll believe it's a rail trail when I see the boy wonder, E Giff Miller, cuting the ribbon, not before...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If anything, I'll reiterate what I said there before. If this plan gets through, tourism and ease of pedestrian flow will surely increase!!
If you can't get the R-62 files, open the .rw file and change the "file=r62" line under [Train] to something you do have. Have some fun and send an R-143 through there.
NYC BVE Authority
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
'JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ'
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........
www.forgotten-ny.com
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Although, this would probably be more fitting for the R Line:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
wayne
PSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
On the BMT standards, it was much louder.
THE (N) WILL RIDE AGAIN!
Elias
I wonder how they're going to manage, although I'm not aware of how the RR did in terms of this problem, something that would help along any analysis.
: ) Elias
First of all, the W is only a supplementary train. There is no minimum frequency requirement at any time of day - they just need enough to serve the load. My guess is that there will be 10 N tph (making the MB merge simple with 10 each of B, D, N, and Q) and 5 W tph.
Since the Ditmars-Whitehall round trip is about 90 min including a few minutes at each end, they probably need at most 8 train sets. When repairs aren't needed, they can easily store 5 on the Astoria express track and 3 at City Hall. When a train needs to go to the yard, it runs light from Whitehall, or it gets relabeled an N at Astoria and does an ordinary N run to CI.
wayne
I wasn't even born yet in the 1970's (I was born in 1983) but from what I hear from youse it must have been some experience to ride those R6's. If those R1/9's were fixed at Coney Island Yard I would like to ride them!
Here on the "A" train, passengers refer to the R38s as the old trains and the R44s as the new cars.
This is interesting because:
1. The R38s are only 5 years older than the R44s
2. The R44s have operated on the "A" 5 years longer than the R38s
3. The R44s, which are termed as the "new trains" are actually 32 years old.
For those people who pay a little, but not very much attention, to the subway cars they ride, it's going to come as a surprise a few years from now when they hear that the "new-looking" R-44s are being scrapped or sunk while the "old-looking" R-32s remain in service (if it does turn out that the R-44s go when the R-160s go into service)
wayne
wayne
Well when the R16's ran anywhere they sounded like they were about to fall apart.
and speacking of the R16 and 40s im macking models of em well 40s are going to a particular Customer an the R16 i keep ! all done in N scale !
Vlad
Not that the GOH's helped the R-30's very much.
Remember the old T-shirt slogan,
Live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse.
The R-30's got two out of three.
I hated the R16s when I used to ride them. As bad as the R30s looked (before cleaned up), the R16s were twice as bad. But they have almost been martyred in my memory. I would do anything to ride one of those rolling disasters right now. The sad thing is that since I was used to seeing the R10s become green, and then the R30s become red, I never realized the R16s were endangered. They were gone with the blink of an eye. When they all of a sudden turned up "missing", I just figured they were out getting green paint-jobs like their R10 cousins. The same thing with the R27-30s. All of a sudden they were gone, back then there wasn't SubTalk to warn you of their demise.
Yes, but shortly after that they disappeared over night. They kind of took over in great numbers, especially on the M line at the end of their lives. They were the majority of the M fleet in the fall of 1986.
I was standing and waiting at Chambers Street and saw several, as well as R27's on the M.
The M was always a mix of everything throughout the 80's, although the R27-30's were always the mainstay. In the early 80's you had R32, R38, R27, R30, R40, R40M, R42, & R16. Then all the R32-42 got blue doors, and were around a bit longer, mixed with red R30, and graffited R27, R30, and R16. The3n the R32 to R42 disappeared gradually for the GOH, and the M was left with a lot of R16 (in great numbers) and graffitied R27. Finally the R16's disappeared, and the M was almost 100% graffitied R27, and red R30 until the R27-30s got squeezed out byt the returning R40, R40M, and R42 GOHed cars around 1989.
Typical Rodeo Food (so what else is new!)
Out here on our rodeo field they got two old outhouses, one labled "Heffers" and the other labled "Steers". It is quite apparent that the GIRLS painted the signs!
Elias
OR
THE FOOD = FREE !
Bill "Newkirk"
MS McK introduced me to a few on official business...I knew I was talking to Superintendents during the short breaks about new Tech.
The biggest thrill was the CI Sup asking me about the work...same questions when BERA crewmember videotaped me operating the R9.
TA has specific rules about identifying employees on the internet...even a positive comment can result in charges of insubordination. What I can throw out is a big thanks to MS-2 A.M.
from PS 248 'SubSchool' for putting up with me and exciting my interest. Got him really going when I suggested CIs should be trained to operate trainsets.
BTW, I heard there were supposed to be other events, like a train running around the loop track giving rides, and a walking tour of the (outside) yard. Where were these things? We saw them listed on the event sheet they were handing out but we couldn't find them.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I don't think Brian's that stupid.
I wanted to leave because I was going to New Jersey but was still searching for the Train Dude when I came about the presentations. I was absolutely STUNNED when I heard my name called. I'd be dangerous if I knew what I was doing!!! Learned a lot...stuff I need to learn about.
Thank you to everyone and God Bless to all. CI Peter
lol
The sandwiches were OK, but what was that smell on the second floor? Oh, right; railfans :)
--Mark
---Brian
I ran into Peter and two Mikes from SubTalk (SubBus and RIPTA42) in the cafeteria -- after the contest -- but before the judging was completed.
CONGRATULATIONS to CI Peter -- On the Juice!
Trains nowadays are much longer than they were in the age of pockets, I think, so any newly constructed pockets would have to be long enough for 10 or 11 car trains. Personally, I don't see much potential for the concept, but then again, I might be missing something. All of that money for construction, though, of the interlockings, signals, and all that, probably would be better spent on some other capacity improving measure.
I guess we had some subtle thread drift. The title and original post was about "Rush hour gap trains" with a suggestion that they no longer run. Lack of extra equipment would lead to that result, and I can't imagine the TA having a crew standing by on idle equipment to be thrown into the gap just in case it is needed in off hours. I would think the idle train on the middle track at Main Street is more like a mid day layup than a gap train.
Tom
The point of a gap train was that it would be held in a pocket on an indefinite schudule, to be placed in service if a service disruption created an abnormally long interval between trains. Then this train would be pressed into service to fill the gap.
They still do this -- put trains in hide-e-holes during rush hour to cover a disruption. In fact, subways top priority is to improve the usability of potential gap train locations north of 59th and south of Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex.
It's been a real education. At City Planning, people are concerned about potential city-changing improvements, like the Flushing Extension and Second Avenue Subway.
Inside the TA, particularly in the operating departments, where everyone looks to "finishing" something before retirement, such things are pie in the sky. What those people care about it improvements to make the existing system work better and easier, like places to hide gap trains, ways to get trains in and out of yards easier, and ways to make G.O.s work better. Folks who came up through the ranks and had a particular situtation aggravate them for 25 years want it fixed. All this is stuff that I never thought about until two years ago.
Can you tell us where, precisely, such gap trains are kept and used? It's always been a burr in my side that there were all these unused extra spur tracks that could be used to fill service gaps -- and I assumed they were not being used.
Gap locations that I've seen used in the IRT:
south of VC on 4 Track
north of 238/WPR behind what used to be 10 Ball
north of Dyre Ave on tail track
2 Track at Main St
south of Woodlawn on M Track
lower level at Utica (3 Track Block)
In the B Div
north of 145 on 3/4 Track
north of Astoria Blvd on 3/4 Track
south of Brighton Beach in lots of places
2 Track at Main St <<<
That one does not seem logical. Don't they use all three tracks to turn trains as quickly as possible at Main Street during rush hour? It would be more logical to hold a gap train at the Corona yard.
Tom
I know there would be significant energy savings if these cars had at least one aerodynamic feature, but over the years, don't rail companies experience more electric expenses than needed (the more cost for making trains aerodynamic would pay off in the lifetime of the car). I like the AE for its design in cutting drag. What about NJT?
I can think of 3 reasons.
1. You only want the front and tail car to be streamlined. That means you need different car types. You need more spares and there's operational overhead whenever you change train lengths.
2. If the front car is streamlined, it has to be longer to have the same carrying capacity. At GCT at least, that means everyone has to walk an extra 10 feet to get out of the train. (100,000 people per day x 10 feet x 250 days per year)/(15,000 feet/hour) = 17,000 hours per year of lost time.
3. At some platforms (GCT, Penn, or anywhere), an extra 10 feet at each end might force a reduction of 1 car length so that the train doesn't impinge on an additional signal block (or a switch) while in the station.
A slightly slanted nose and a 'streamlined' figure does not connote an aerodynamic design. Acela is little more aerodynamic than an AEM7, go to the station and stand there as an Acela and an AEM7 pulled train pass at track speed, I have found there to be nearly no practical difference in the wake between the two, even if the Acela might be moving 10mph faster.
I'm amazed that Bombardier is basically a HSR consortium, formed out of ABB, ADTranz, basically in bed with Alstom, and with some sort of relationship with Siemens, yet ACELA shows little connection to the TGVs and other HSRs in Europe. It's as if they looked at our requirements, and went "150MPH? Phht, our locals go that fast" then they and Warrington BS'd stuff about what a quantum leap this would be over a completely incomparable service, namely the Amtrak operation BOS-New Haven, seemingly their one and only big PR line, "We save 2 hrs WAS-BOS." Yeah but how much time do you save WAS-NYP?. I really have to ask, why do they insist on saying that they save some 2-3 hours over the old engine change at New Haven? NO SH!T STUPID! There you had to take the engine off, and strap another on! Lets see what would have happened if we had just gone for electrifying BOS-New Haven, buying some 125mph ALP-46s, and some luxury Comet Vs, and running the same damn service without all the Acela BS.
Anyway, away from Warrington's BS. It's blatantly clear that Bombardier designed Acela to look like an HST in Europe (actually I think it looks like a Talent DMU on steriods) from the track or platform level, thereby giving us our 'HST' (even though we've had an HST for the past what? 20 years in the AEM7). This is particularly telling in the roof, look at an overhead photo of the ACELA, and observe that on the shouded powercars, there is a deep trough immediately behind the cab's aerodynamic transition to the roofline (now readily visible due to the de-Shrouding), this area is a perfect spot for drag, turbulence, and pretty much every other little issue that Aerodynamicsts like to study. Also, on the shrouded ones, the air could only enter from the top, both sides were blocked, this squeezed the air, but also would work to create lift, admittedly less than 50 lbs of force balanced against some 100 tons normal force on the rail, with no shroud (note subway, On Topic!), the air flows from three sides, so that instead of a flap, it's merely a brake.
Now follow the overhead photo back, and see that there are some insulators, which is great, cause those are just hanging out in the breeze, completely unprotected from the wind (or rather the wind is not protected from them), and easily causing drag, follow back from there to the massive housing that actually looks to extend beyond the slight cover of the shrouds, exposed to the airflow and free to cause all the drag it can. I must admit that the pantographs don't seem to have too much of a problem, but every car behind that one has the obligitory air conditioning unit, each of which is interupting the air flow as if there were nothing behind it.
Look at all that Europe has done with HSTs in the past thirty to fourty years, from the TGV-01 to the ICE3, TGV-Duplex and Talgo-350, especially the evolution of the roofline of TGV series. Starting with the Paris Sud-Est (Orange) trains, you have a two step roof, bad for aerodynamics cause it means that you basically have to change the direction of the air twice in it's trip over your cab. Next the TGV Atlantique and Reseau (Silver-Blue, and the Atlantique is the current record holder for fastest wheeled rail vehicle) had the same nose as the TGV PSE, but incorporated an aerodynamic fairing to make it just one change in direction of the air from the nose to the roof. Finally the Thalys PBKA and TGV Duplex have the current nose, which is one continuous curve from the front of the nose to the roofline. And note in all cases that the entire trains's roof is devoid of the complications that the Acela brings into the picture, the roofs are smooth, no insulators, boxes, or air conditioners.
The Q were transfer by rail, on their own power. ENY to Myrtle-Broadway. Reverse ends. Go up to Myrtle Ave El.
The roof was lowered between the IRT and the return to the BMT so Qs could reach Coney Island without the restrictions placed on the high roof BUs. Not long after the high clearances on the Sea Beach were effectively lowered.
What I wonder is: where were the Qs stored for the 3 years from the end of the Third Avenue el in Manhattan until they replaced the BUs. It was a pretty sizable fleet to be stored.
The Centre St and 4th Ave Subways were built to Triborough standards, which permitted El car clearance. The Montague St tunnel and Nassau St tunnel were built to Dual Contract standards that did not permit El car clearance.
Did the Q's go to Coney Island at all before they had their rooves lowered? I thought they were based at East New York.
BTW, I also heard that the fans they got when the rooves were lowered came from scrapped Multi's.
Can anyone elaborate?
BEST
Conrad Misek
(Formerly of Ridgewood, now in Boston)
Very wishful thinking...
Not so! That *is* how a photographer takes serious pictures. The want to examine a thing with several different lighting posibilities, and will want to bracket their shots to achieve an opitimum exposure. They want to get a picture of a train arriving at just the right juxtiposition over some signal head or something.
Good photography is an art that takes patience and many exposures. With a good digital camera you could even show the cop all of your nice pictures, rhapsodizing over each shot, and its angles and lighting. A good photographer could talk his ear off for 15 minutes, and th cop will wander off in a stupor shaking his head.
Elias
The cops gotta do what they gotta do just so they show decent respect while they're doing it. Hopefully this crap will end one day, like after other wars,
There's a neat opportunity here. Maybe your friend could borrow your pictures for an essay. I'm sure the cop could lead a lively discussion in the classroom about it, since he was there, too.
It's ironic that we are sacrificing American lives in Iraq to protect freedoms that we ourselves are losing in this country!
If his idea of "doing his job" consists of harrassing innocent railfans because of a completely nonexistent "terrorist threat," then his career should be messed up.
The other time was in the LIRR Fresh Pond Yard. We were taking some photos of boxcars, and we got stopped by the cops. This time it wasn't as easy. They wanted ID, etc, and kept insisting that we were graffiting the trains, and taking photos of our "work". It took 20 minutes to try to explain that we "don't do that kind of thing." It took a little memo notebook I had with some "railfan" notes in it to finally prove we were just photographing trains. Before that he even threatened to take our film as "PROFF" that we were photographing our vandalism.
And this had nothing to do with terrorism, etc. It was 10 years ago! So take all the photos you want. It is legal, and as long as you don't tresspass, you should be fine.
"Just doing their job" ... where have I heard that before ... oh right, Judgment at Nuremburg.
Chris did say he was (a) trespassing and (b) treated courteously.
Is it your opinion that police officers have no right whatsoever to question people about their behavior if it's a bit odd?
For example, suppose I were standing in a subway station for an hour taking notes each time a train arrived and departed so that I could support some argument about minimum headways. No officer has any right whatsoever to arrest me and possibly no right to tell me to leave (I'm not sure what constitutes loitering in the subways). But do you feel they have no right to even question me? Even Lynn Stewart might disagree.
While there may be very unusual situations in which the police may be justified in questioning people, ordinary railfanning activities are not among them. I would consider the example you give to be a borderline case. Spending a few minutes in a station taking pictures, assuming that no rules against flash or tripods are violated, does not justify police harrassment under any circumstances.
1) Determining the threat level of an individual is highly subjective, that is, the individual cop makes his own assessment.
2) Because the most innocent-looking person can kill you, all possible "threats" must be evaluated. Remember that the cop wants to go home to his or her family, too.
3) Don't forget the 16 acre hole in the ground at Church and Liberty Streets which caused our world to change. I'll bet the hijackers of 9/11 went up in the WTC, too, to plan their attack, and I'm sure they took THOUSANDS of pictures.
4) From my own experience, both as a railfan and at EMS, I can tell you that it's a fine point, when talking about freedom to photograph. I've been stopped for taking pics, but my experience may be atypical, I show the cop my shield and ID, and that's the end of it. However, I've also been called to incidents where the picture-taker and the cop got into it and somebody got hurt. Again, it's a fine line.
5) I don't like our precious freedoms being chipped away at any more than the next man. But the whole Police/Photography debate, to my mind at least, centers around safety, not harrassment.
As always, Stay safe, have fun and use your heads!
You'll be safe almost anywhere on the system during daylight hours. Even at night, there's probably very little risk on the trains or in the stations.
Normally, crime in the subway is very unlikely, especially in New York, but things can always happen when you least expect it. 30th Street is a very busy station in a decent part of Philadelphia, yet someone was shot in the station on the platform in the middle of the day. Go figure.
That was NEVER true.
Actually, it was true, when there were no guns, but people were killed in other ways.
---Brian
Did you hear anything about the circumstances of the crime? I ask because at least in New York, and almost certainly in other cities too, some homicides and assaults which happen in the subway have nothing to do with the subway per se. They are pre-existing arguments, sometimes domestic, which are more or less "carried down" into the subway. In other words, they're not random, stranger-on-stranger crimes.
Anything can happen anywhere. Don't change your routine for that.
Even in the best of neighborhoods, be street smart. I try not flash my camera when I don't have to. But just use common sense. I have it out obviously when I am taking a photo, and many times I am on the end of a platform by myself in a "bad" neighborhood. If you act scared, people will sense it...but remember, the subway is fairly safe - the safest in years, most of the people on the platform, are just trying to go to work or whatever, and go about their business. They are not there to harm you.
I walked through Compton Calif (gang territory, big time Bloods and Crips) once on my way to a school district meeting.
Iasked some high-schoolers for directions. They were falling all over themselves to be courteous and helpful to me. Real gentlemen. They treated with with respect, and I returned it.
And the subway is always safer than the street.
Your best assets are your social skills, common sense and prudence. If you're not properly equipped in that department (especially the first), don't bother leaving your house.
B D Q remains the same/unchange according to 2004 Manny B Service rough draft.
W return to Brooklyn via tunnel and replaces M to/from Bay Parkway during rush hours and terminate at 9th Ave at midday. No service at other time.
M runs local via Sea Beach N line in Brooklyn to 86th Street or Stillwell Ave all time except nite and weekend and; replace by W in west end
N runs via Bridge ALSO at nite - making local stops in sea beach route from 36 to Stillwell Ave and remain express between Pacific and 36 at nite.
R extended to 57th St/Broadway at nite as local, and remain normal and unchange at all other time.
This idea of mines is to keep three service in lower manhattan (between canal and Dekalb) while N operates via bridge during its own schedule.
I will be attending the 2004 Manny B service change public hearing and submit my own 2004 Manny B Service to TA upon the hearing announcement/schedule.
Any suggestion?
The obvious question is whether the ridership levels justify it.
Depends how much advantage Southern Brooklyn Riders is taken under the new plan.
It would be interesting to consider which extensions should be priorities when cars are available. I suppose that rider demand and response to the new lines will have to be considered, so we will have to wait a while for any decisions.
Extending the V to Church Avenue or Kings Highway, extending the G to Church, extending the V or the R to 179th Street, and 6 car G trains will compete with the suggestions for W and M service.
Yeah, you have lost your mind.........
Example everyone......
This is your brain.....
This is your brain on SubTalk.......
Comments welcome.
N Bwy Line
Astoria
So what difference does it make whether the Q or N serves Second Av?
The Q will become a local train if MTA's Fen 2004 service plan goes through with no changes. But there might be changes...
"The Q will become a local train if MTA's Fen 2004 service plan goes through with no changes. But there might be changes..."
However, if there are no changes to this plan, the N will run on the B'way express and if it still does by the time the SAS opens, it will most likely run on 2nd Ave.
That is a reasonable assumption. But I must warn you: it probably won't consist of R40 slants.
That's from the SAS SDEIS,and was no doubt written before the Manny B Service Plan was put together. It is not relevant to the service plan itself, which will govern what the trains do after Feb 2004.
The SAS SDEIS is not the basis of the upcoming 2004 service plan.
OK. This thread was about connecting the Q or the N to the SAS, so I assumed you were talking about a map in the SAS SDEIS.
So you're not. Then what on earth are you talking about? The chart that was posted on Subtalk (viewable here) clearly labels the Q as a Broadway express.
Although I'm not a B/D rider, I'm sure a lot of people will be upset about this plan... Maybe you should consider the population before you come up with such a proposal.
N Broadway Line
Not my proposal, the MTAs. And they did consider the population. They even did formal rider surveys.
Over the years, Astoria has had service from all BMT branches - Fourth Ave., West End, Brighton, and Sea Beach. Queens Blvd. local has had all of the above except West End. Second Avenue will no doubt see changes after it opens. But why worry about it now?
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Forgive the length of this, but I've been reading "The Lord Of The Rings," and Tolkien's great storytelling is still in my head. BTW, the movies cannot compare to the books.
I saw plenty of GO posters on the platforms at 34th, 14th, and Chambers, but not so many further uptown. Lots of confused people at 96th when a 5 pulled in.
On a different topic, the first 5 train I got on had its own special flavor of poor announcements. We all know about the various automated annoucements on the 142s - "please do not hold the train doors", "thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit", so forth - but this conductor felt we needed some serious lecturing. He played four of those announcements between 96th and 72nd, FIVE before reaching Times Square, and another three before Penn Station! I decided to hop out and wait for the next train at Penn, just to avoid that irritation. (Since he was so busy with the prerecorded bits, nowhere in that time did the C/R mention anything about the 5 reroute.)
Then they blame anyone they encounter
who works for transit for
NOT telling them about anything.
As far as reading. The same applies. Some don't even read there own language that well
Yes, back then the roll signs were all screwed up (and I remember as a kid, I used to even play around with the ones on the R27-30s to see all the different routes and destinations, and you know the roll sign never wound up back to the route it was supposed to be.
But actually, just the other day I saw "Z" train (just after noon, when only the J runs) at Chauncey Street that had Z on the front and back, and most of the cars had J though (1 of the 8 was Z).
Same with a G running on the F or visa versa, get on you know where it
will end up.
David
On the southbound platform at 96/B'way - "Does this stop at 42 St?"
On the northbound platform at 34/6 Ave - "Does this stop at 42 St?"
On the southbound platform at 57/7 Ave - "Does this stop at 42 St?"
And those were ALL on trains with correct signage and working PA systems.
I'm not making this up. I pointed to the stairs.
Someone walked up to me and calmly asked me how to get to Brooklyn.
More than once.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Man of Steel may have had Feet of Clay. ;-)
Anyone remember the ads for "X-ray glasses" that used to be in comic books? Supposedly they'd let you see through clothing. I never had a pair, but it's a reasonable deduction that reality fell a little short of the hype.
...something good came from that Canadian vs. Canadien thread many months ago...
-Robert King
As David mentions, there are a few more train sets kept. But I don't know if they were modified to handle today's passenger safety standards.
According to this site the Sprague-Thompsons run during the summer on a tour basis.
The Sprague-Thompson cars were built 1908-1935, replacing wooden cars, and ran in five car sets with motor cars at each end and three trailers in between. They were painted green, except for the center car which was a 1st Class extra fare car (cushions rather than wood slat seating) painted red.
Tom
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/metro/Paris/Sprague/pix.html
And you can tell Heypaul wired up the cab - BMT style. :)
As for the Spragues, they came in many different flavors, it's hard to generalize. Two-motors, four motors, dark green livery, gray livery, four-doors, three doors, large cab, small cab, four car, five car, six car consists, etc...
I used to ride them everyday on line 6 to go to school and I also saw the line's conversion to rubber-tyre stock. It was quite interesting.
I always used to think that the Eastern Division always got the short end of the stick. But if you think about it, it really wasn't that badly treated:
-It got the R16s as new cars (alright, they were lemons, but the ED did get them new).
-The ED also did get a few air conditioned R42s (they were spread all over the place).
-The next new orders were the 75 foot cars R44, R46, R68. This is the period, the 70s and 80s that it seemed that the ED was getting only hand-me-downs. But the truth is that it couldn't get the other new cars because they were too big, and can't run there.
-Then the era of the GOHs came...and who got the NEWEST 60 foot cars in the system when they were rebuilt, the R42---The Eastern Division!!
-and now the Eastern Divsion is getting the newest B divison cars. I used to always feel that the Eastern Division was treated as second class. But the truth is, once you think about it, the only time the ED was treated badly was when the whole system was neglected, and the era of the 75 foot cars which wouldn't have fit there anyway.
The E.D. (Eastern District) got the R-40M and R-42 cars because that's where Car Equipment and Operations Planning put them.
David
wayne
wayne
Thank you.
In the R32 section, you will see several 4 car R32s signed "CC". That should be a clue.
If you look at any map prior to the 1979 version, the description of Rockaway service on the "A", "CC" or "E" were either extremely vague or non existent.
Now that definately answers the question I used to have which was:
Why, after 11:30 pm, the "A" trains were reduced from 6 cars to 4 cars.
For the record the last train Left Euclid Avenue at 746AM and arrived at Bedford Park Boulevard at 903AM. It had cars 1057-937-1283-1294-1132-1004-1145-1314.
Larry, RedbirdR33
R-6/7 stock persisted on the Queens Blvd line until 1976.
wayne
The few prewar D trains I rode on after 1968 were R-4s, judging from the lack of headlights on the lead motor each time.
(1) The R1s actually began their careers on the BMT. In 1931 some test trains were operated on the Sea Beach (today's N) line between Coney Island and Times Square as a means of testing the new equipment before the IND subway opened.
(2) The R16s began their lives on the Eastern Division (Jamaica Ave. El) and ended on the Eastern Division (Canarsie).
(3) The R46s, which caused the final replacement of the R1-9s, were themselves OOS for a while around 1980/1981 to allow replacement of defective truck frames on the entire fleet. For a while I distinctly remember R10s running on the E train replacing the R46s.
In 1980/81 I was working at the World Trade Center (North Tower) and living where I still reside on Long Island. Most PM commutes consisted of taking the E from WTC (first stop) to Penn Station. The first night the R10s ran on the E I did a double take, and also was much more uncomfortable than the previous day, since it was summertime and the AC R46s were suddently replaced with the R10s and their little, nearly useless fans. By the time the R46s returned to the E I had left that job for a different one, and a different commute.
Sure they took OFF faster than Arnines, but the Arnines would dust them on the local track until they had to stop. A/CC races or A/E races could be amusing until the platform appeared on the local side.
I know the R-1/9s were fast. That first E train I took in Queens proved it. Even those D runs up CPW weren't shabby at all. I only wish I'd ridden on them more on express dashes.
Had the BMT standards been equipped with beefier motors, they might have had some more oomph. OTOH I never thought they were sluggish. Ugly yes, but not sluggish.
Were the R-1/9s just as sluggish on the Brighton?
I think I can, I think I can...I think I can....cough...I think I can....cough, gasp.....I dunno about this....more coughinng and gasping.....I'm not gonna make it - everybody out and push!
wayne
wayne
Same stretch of express track was covered in equal speed in 1981 by an R-10 on the "F", with #3080 in the lead.
wayne
I've made a mental note on our own LRV #114. This past Friday I rode on it between Broadway and Englewood, and it hit 60 each time and held until the T/O backed off a bit on the speed. That was the first time I saw one of our light rail trains hit 60 on level track, not going downhill from one of the flyovers.
I also rode on car 149, the highest number in the fleet.
Not exactly. In 1968, R40's were delivered to Queens only and are what bumped the R7-9's to the ED; the R16's had vanished months before to the RR and EE. The R27's were already on the QJ and stayed there. Standards were on the rush hour JJ, LL, M.
The R7/R9 cars arrived earlier, in 1968/69, to replace the retiring standards and the rest of the R16's, which were then sent to Jamaica.
(1) The R1s actually began their careers on the BMT. In 1931 some test trains were operated on the Sea Beach (today's N) line between Coney Island and Times Square as a means of testing the new equipment before the IND subway opened.
Were they actually used in revenue service, or merely tested?
(2) The R16s began their lives on the Eastern Division (Jamaica Ave. El) and ended on the Eastern Division (Canarsie).
The R16's ended their lives in 1987 on the M line.
(3) The R46s, which caused the final replacement of the R1-9s, were themselves OOS for a while around 1980/1981 to allow replacement of defective truck frames on the entire fleet. For a while I distinctly remember R10s running on the E train replacing the R46s.
Yup, and the mothballed 6400 series R16's were called back into service.
Believe it or not, the last train of R-1/9s I ever rode on was a CC!
wayne
When was the last time you could get a one seat ride to the Concourse from that particular station? Not possible, of course, with the F.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's a lot more recent than 1967.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And intended to admit as much natural light as possible.
It's been 10 years since I've been there, I can't remember.....
Larry, RedbirdR33
I remember that waiting room in Tottenville back when the old cars were running. On a warm day of riding the old cars from St.George, there was a water cooler that was worth the trip. Also a real lavatory to use. Both are probably being used by the crews and not the passengers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Larry, RedbirdR33
1)How is the Ride? Is it like the NYC Subway?
2)How fast does the SIRT usually operate at?
3)And does SIRT have OPTO at certain times?
Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
No, it is much better, since these cars have to go by FRA standards, since it is a former B&O railroad. The windows also look better as a dark blue window. The only thing that sucks, though, is that while you can walk through the train going southbound, there are two drawbacks: (A) There may be an A car in the middle of the consist, and (B), there are no railfan windows).
2)How fast does the SIRT usually operate at?
I have not seen how fast the trains go, so I cannot answer it. I can say that is generally faster and smoother than their A train counterparts.
3)And does SIRT have OPTO at certain times?
Unless Nassau and Atlantic are not full-time stations, it cannot, because the conductor needs to leave his booth at one of the two stops to open one door (I forgot which one of the two it is).
Also, there is only one point of fare collection on the system: St. George. However, it is not advised to get off at Tompkinsville (the stop before) becase you will miss the ferry.
Too bad I never got to ride the SIR North Division. If anyone has pics, please share them.
s-440-397-415-428-n
The RoW is smoother.
2)How fast does the SIRT usually operate at?
40-45 mph MAX.
The one thing I disliked was the very shrill whistles and they had to use them all too much for the many grade crossings -- eliminated in one big project in the 1960's.
Routine maintenance is performed in Clifton, while heavier jobs are performed at the Coney Island Shops( the only time SIR trains run on subway trackage).
Plus, all SIR cars still carry the two-tone M on the sides with "Staten Island" under the M. No Pac-Man logo here, only on the timetables.
I don't know why this never makes the advisory.
Personally, I think it's confusing to label a train as an E but to run it off the E route from Roosevelt all the way to the south terminal. To most of its potential passengers, it's an F, not an E! IMO, on weekends like this, the E shouldn't run at all. Extend the R to Jamaica Center and run a bit of extra F service short-turning at 2nd Avenue. If that won't fly, at the very least label E's as something else, like "Special" (if that reading is on the R-32 rollsigns).
Thanks Oren,
Mark
Thanks again to Oren for organizing a fun trip.
Mark
Why do flatbed cars carrying subway cars restrict humping?
Also, are retarders hand-in-hand with this type of sorting freight?
Aside from a yard hump, humping signals, some sort of switch control system and car barcode reader to make sure cars are routed onto their proper trains, a pin puller (employee) and retarders to slow the progress of the cars, no.
Why do flatbed cars carrying subway cars restrict humping?
Two reasons. One is that the cars might be too long. The hump is a very abrupt change of grade and a car with a long wheelbase might derail. Also, when you hump a car it can be subject to voilent decelerations and even collisions. Due to Newton's second law, a SOFC might continue to slide forward causing a big mess.
Also, are retarders hand-in-hand with this type of sorting freight?
Yes.
There's also a slot into which something must be inserted in order for release to occur.
---Brian
Here's a site with a decent show and tell on "humping" ...
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1967/67-11/bros.html
But "ain't nothin' dirty goin' on ..."
wayne
Chuck Greene
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
Daylight SAVING Time.
What are midnight schedules? AFAIK, the only thing I worry about is AMTRAK's Twilight Shoreliner (if this train ran on the night of DST) that departs NYP at 2:10p. I would think a margin of 10 minutes would render the train being 60 minutes "late" to Virginia Beach or Newport News (I forgot which destination in VA). NJT has no problem since its final NJCL and NEC trains depart at 1:36a and 1:41a respectively.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
1.save the OPTO survice for weekend only and use the R160 for that survice.
2.bring in some R143 for that line(wtich i think won,t happen)
but hey,ya never know.
til next time
As to where the R-160s will run, let's wait until the cars are actually constructed AND find out how many of them there will be (the base order is for 660, but it could go as high as 1,700 if all the options are taken -- even more if the contracts are modified somewhere down the road) before worrying about where they're going to run.
David
I keep laughing everytime I remember Chris yelling "CAF, CAF" as we were going up the escalator at Huntington. Of course, not realizing which way the train was going since it was at its terminal I began, mistakenly, running for the back of the train only to turn around and see everyone running the other way! LOL.
Thanks to All,
Mark
For those of you who did not come, here is my trip report. Of course those who came along are free to make comments or additions. Pictures from various group members should be coming in over the next several days. Dave, get in touch with me to let me know how to get this stuff over to you.
And now, my trip report:
The second Washington, DC SubTalk trip will probably be remembered for its numerous delays, missed connections, and other minor mishaps, but it will also be remembered by those who went as it being a great time for all and a chance to meet the faces behind the handles. My day began when I took Rohr 1088 from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor, where I met Mark Greenwald (Mountain Maryland), and his son, Jeremiah. We then took Breda 4029 to Union Station to meet up with everyone else. En route, Ken LaCapria boarded the train.
Upon our arrival at Union Station, we found out that train 79, which was transporting our out of town contingency was 30 minutes late, so we started looking at Mark’s Rohr roll sign and my copy of The Story of Metro. We rolled through the roll sign from end to end and introduced ourselves until the train arrived. At 10:45, the train did arrive, so our group set out towards the Metro. The group consisted of myself (WMATAGMOAGH), Alan Braunstein (Faxman), Chris Der (New Look Terrapin), Wayne Johnson, Chuck Greene (TransitChuckG), Mark Greenwald (Mountain Maryland) and his son, Jeremiah, Tristan Cunningham (BusStalker), Raymond Mui (aznboy4305), Bob Vogel (chuchubob), Perry (whose last name I don’t remember but his handle is 1C/Ballston), Walter Walsh, Ken LaCapria, Carlton Walton (Transit is my Drug), and Chris Garnier, a total of 15 people.
At the Metro, those who did not have day passes bought them and we proceeded to the platform to wait for the train. It was Breda 3239 and we took it to its last stop, Grosvenor-Strathmore. As members of the group announced facts and trivia at several stations, the entire car grew quiet, an event that happened many times throughout the day. At Grosvenor, we asked a bystander to take a group photo of us around the rollsign. We then took advantage of our day passes and went to Mark’s car, where he showed us a framed map showing the Green Line to Rosecroft Raceway, the Yellow Line to Huntington, and the Blue and Yellow Lines to their original southern terminals, among other things. After some time, we proceeded back onto the Metro to continue onwards to Shady Grove. To that, we were on Breda 4003. Ray left the group upon our arrival at Shady Grove.
At Shady Grove, we took the first of the two bus legs of the trip on board the Q2 route, operated by WMATA. We had Orion V 2144 from Montgomery Division. The ride was fairly fast and served its purpose, allowing us to cross to the other side of Montgomery County without riding the Red Line all the way around. Again, the tour guide type announcements got the attention of everyone. At Wheaton, we alighted and went to Wheaton Plaza to have a quick lunch. After lunch, we boarded the Metro again by using the longest escalator in the system and the second longest in the Western Hemisphere. We rode Breda 3271, the last car of the train, from Wheaton to Glenmont, expecting it to be the lead car on the next trip out. But the next train was already at Glenmont and on the other platform, so we crossed over. The lead car of that train was Breda 2023. At Silver Spring, Carlton ran out to get pictures of a Neoplan AN460 Articulated and we made plans to meet him later. The rest of the group got out at Fort Totten with plans to wait for Carlton. Unfortunately, he missed the next train from Silver Spring and by the time he caught up with us, we had missed two Green Line trains. Fortunately, we were able to get pictures of the Capitol Limited passing by Fort Totten on the CSX tracks.
Another unfortunate thing was that both trains we had let go while waiting for Carlton were Bredas, and the one we ended up taking was also a Breda, not the CAF we had hoped for. The lead car was 3277. At this point with the trip nowhere near our original schedule, we polled the out of towners who agreed to go for a train an hour later, giving us more flexibility in planning the afternoon. After passing the pocket at Mount Vernon Square where we saw the next Yellow Line train would be yet another set of Bredas (notice we haven’t been on anything else as of yet), we decided to go to L’Enfant Plaza in hope that the Blue Line might have something different. At Gallery Place, we saw a train of CAF cars on the Green Line heading towards Greenbelt. Luckily, a train of Rohr cars pulled in at L’Enfant. We got on the third car, took advantage of the large number of tourists at Smithsonian to move up to the second, and at Federal Triangle, finally made it to the lead car, 1288. We were separated in the process but reunited by the time we reached Pentagon City, where we took a brief but needed bathroom break.
After our break, we went back to the Metro where we decided to take the Blue Line out to Franconia-Springfield. The lead car of the Blue Line was 3081. Unlike two years ago when our Franconia-Springfield bound train broke down between Van Dorn Street and Franconia-Springfield, we made it to Franconia-Springfield without any delays. It was at this point that Ken left us; his car was parked at Van Dorn Street. We then waited for a Fairfax Connector bus to take us to Huntington, thinking it would be just as long as the Blue to Yellow Line routing. The 109 trip on Orion V 7797 took a mere 50 minutes, but it was well worth it. Once again, all point of interest announcements created a hush through the entire bus (popular group, aren’t we?) and we got to see a few cherry blossom trees. At Huntington, after observing there was still a small pile of snow under a tree in full bloom, we went up to the platform and found a 6 car train of CAF cars with its doors wide open and awaiting the group. At this point, we had ridden on board cars from each of the five shipments of cars. The lead car was 5051 and it was the first ride on board the CAF cars for a number of people in the group. Unfortunately, the interior LEDs were not working but that did not dampen anyone’s spirits at this point. We saw some of the Tidal Basin cherry blossom trees as the train crossed the Fenwick Bridge from Virginia to DC, the closest we came to seeing them. At L’Enfant Plaza, where we got off, a train of CAF cars on the Green Line was sitting there but just before anyone could get in a position to take pictures of the two CAF trains along side each other. We then proceeded downstairs, to continue onwards, Chris Der left the group to go to the MCI Center.
We took the Blue Line, lead car Breda 4019 (having gotten both a Rohr and a CAF, the Breda didn’t bother people too much), to Addison Road. At Addison, we were able to photograph the rear car of the train under the now fast setting sun, as well as a train of Rohr cars waiting to be laid up on the opposite track. We decided to ride in the rear of the Blue Line train back to Stadium-Armory so that we would be up front on the Orange Line out to New Carrollton. Unfortunately, transit police had to do a quick investigation of something on board the train, so its departure was delayed, making us miss the New Carrollton bound Orange Line train. After yet another wait during which we got pictures of a Breda train going to Addison Road and a Rohr train to Vienna, we got on board Breda 3174, which took us out to New Carrollton. By now, it was nearly dark, so the busfans in the group had trouble making out the various MetroBus lots along the right of way, but they still managed. At New Carrollton, we went into the Amtrak waiting room to say our goodbyes and get a much needed drink from the station vending machines.
At this time, Walter, Alan, Carlton, and Bob went to wait for their Amtrak train, which this time arrived at New Carrollton on time, left on time, and arrived at their respective destinations on time. Mark and Jeremiah went ahead to start going back to their home. The rest of the DC area contingent, now consisting of myself, Perry, Wayne, Chris Garnier, and Tristan, boarded an Orange Line train led by Rohr 1267 to head back to our respective residences or whatever intended destination we were bound for. Perry left at L’Enfant Plaza, the rest of us got off at Metro Center but Chris and Wayne headed towards Glenmont, while Tristan and I headed towards Shady Grove on board Breda 3254.
All things considered, everyone considered the day to be a successful one. We passed through approximately 73% of the stations on the system (61 out of 83 stations). For those of us who had been on the first SubTalk trip to Washington in April of 2000, we had each now traveled the entire system in its entirety at least once. At least three other people on the trip had completed their tours of the entire system. And everyone was pleased to have met various people who had merely been online acquaintances before with the hopes of meeting each other again in the near future and also those who had hoped to but were unable to join us.
After the Caps- Pitt. Penguins Game at the MCI Center, I got on a Breda Green Line to Greenbelt to head back home and when I stpped on the train I heard the operator say on the PA system
"Transit police please report to car 3255. A fight has broken out on that car. Transit police to car 3255. A fight has broken out on that car."
My guess is that a Penguins fan and a Caps fan wanted to finish what they started inside the arena.
Mark
025597 2002 Orion V
This is Mountain Maryland's old Metrorail map. Note how the Blue and Yellow Lines have reversed VA terminals. Also note that Rosecroft is one of the Green Line terminals.
Fairfax Connector 7789 Orion V
Ahh yes...Snow in April.
I will make a formal request for pictures from the trip in a few days, I want Dave to e-mail me first about how he wants the info sent to him.
WMATA Rohr car #1228 @Pentagon City on the Blue Line
WMATA Breda #3271 @ Glenmont on the Red Line
WMATA Breda #4086 @ Pentagon City on the Yellow Line
WMATA CAF #5051 @ L'Enfant Plaza on the Yellow Line
AND NOW FOR THE BUSES...
Montgomery County Ride-On Orion V #5597 @ the Grosvenor-Strathmore Red Line Station
Montgomery County Ride-On Orion V CNG #5814 @ the Shady Grove Red Line Station
Fairfax Connector Orion V #7797 @ the Huntington Yellow Line Station
WMATA New Flyer C40LF CNGs #2303 and #2305 @ the Fort Totten Green and Yellow Line Station
That's it for now...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
SubTalk DC 2003
Damm I wish my insurance company had come through so I could purchase the new car so I could have joined the group.
Oh well next time.
John
Thank you.
Ground shots, my friend. Basically, I kneel down to the ground, and in the case of that WMATA Breda car at Pentagon City, #4086, I actually, was mostly on the platform ground when I shot it, to get a worm's eye view of the rail car, per se...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Chuck Greene
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
And thank you for your kind comments on my photos.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
That me on the right. Then WMATA Director Of Community Service Cody Pfastieh took the Photo. Dupont Circle Flood 09-27-1975
Love the pants, I'd hoped you were going to where them on Saturday;-O
Quick question though, how old were you there? I know how old you are now and I'm trying to figure this one out---I was going to say, 18, maybe?
Mark
LOL!! The are likely someplace very deep in the Lorton landfill. Kind of reminds you of "That 70s Show" doesn’t it.
"Quick question though, how old were you there? I know how old you are now and I'm trying to figure this one out---I was going to say, 18, maybe?
Let see, let me do the math.... I had just turned 18, And get this, this city boy didn’t get his drivers license until he was 21. Loved riding those $250,000 limos WMATA had running around Washington. Believe in or not, you would never guess that my favorite bus that WMATA had on the roster back in the early days were the AM Generals. God I loved those rattle traps.
John
While on the Q2 when we got near Wheaton, the Clever device system announced the old reminder about the front seats being priority seating, catching all of us off guard since we didn't expect the announcement. We did not hear the eating/drinking/smoking announcement during the trip at all.
I thought for sure that the Red Line we took to Shady Grove was 4008 rather than 4003, but I think my view was blocked.
Oh, forgot too, my last name is Palistrant. I don't think I ever put that in my email, sorry!!!
Chuck Greene
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Many thanks to Oren for the planning/coordination of this trip. It was great meeting you guys and I look forward to the next.
Wayne
Wayne
Chuck Greene
The long bus ride was what aided us in getting that CAF train, too! Of course, seeing the snow pile next to the garage was pretty funny.
I can't wait to do this again on either a bus or subtalk trip, or just to hang out.
Mark
p.s.---I think the local folk enjoyed a little redneck humor---It's like I must've been from another country---I guess Appalachia is another country.....almost
On the bus - I can't remember exactly where you were sitting, but I was sitting on the 3 side facing seats (over the wheel) with an empty seat between myself and the young lady telling us of her experience of driving far down US 301. Later on the Red line... I was sitting in the aisle seat. Yes, I think we all enjoyed the humor. Did you travel back home the same evening?
For others reading this post. After Christopher and I split up from Oren and Tristian... we boarded a Silver Spring bound train and once again saw Mark and his son.
Wayne
After we saw the two of you on the Red Line, Jeremiah and I got something to eat at Union Station, then back on the Red Line to Grosvenor where we got in the car and drove home. We got home at about 11:50 p.m.---pretty much what I expected....Jeremiah fell asleep before we even got to I-270...He had a great time, that's all I heard about on Sunday---Everybody did a GREAT job making sure he had a good time and didn't get lost in the crowd---THANK YOU!! I know he loved riding in the railfan seat....As luck would have it, after we left Union Station, the train that we got on had a Green/White sign just sitting there on the floor just outside the cab. If that car was empty......that sign was going home with me....opportunities lost.
Thank You again,
Mark
Mountain Maryland
p.s.--would you believe we got snow, ice, slush just in time for the morning rush---UGH!!
(Hey, that rhymes)
It was a "hoot-and-a holler"
YEEEEEE HAAAAAAA!!
I can't wait till next time!!! And yes, Jeremiah had the time of his life, that's all I heard on Sunday
Thank You to All My New Friends!!!
Mark
(Perhaps I ought to change my handle from Mountain Maryland to Redneck----hmmmmm)
Did you talk to the guy who ran several blocks to catch the bus? He got on at the first stop after we turned from southbound Van Dorn Street and back onto Franconia Road and sat on the silver thing in the middle of that back row of seats. I didn't mind the Orions as much as you did and on 2144, getting the public service announcement might be able to make getting the Orion instead of the Flxibes worth it.
Glad you had fun. I personally set a record for longest time spent on the subway/bus if you count the wait at Union Station, lunch, and our bathroom break at Pentagon City (11 hours).
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
This isn't an old vs. new thing so much as it's a Redbird vs. everything else. If there were still pre-1955 cars around, I'd prefer them to the Redbirds too. The Redbirds are the NADIR of subway car design, they are bland and minimalist, both with design and technology.
On the other hand, the R-142 has the curved bars, and the colored bonnets, showing that somebody actually cared about aesthetics. There's also the glass end that let's you see into the next car.
Also, why do you put a colon at the end of your subject lines? It's kind of stupid.
---Brian
intersting point of View !
But try this Quote "Whenever I see , hear or read your posts, I am unhappy " !
My two cents !
PS CC local i hope you can Back me up on this one !
---Brian
I like the R-40 slants, they were a noble attempt by the subway to finally add some DESIGN to cars, lacking for over 20 years.
You're only saying this because it's lonely to be the only one on this board.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Thank you! That excellently summarizes my attitude when I see posts by you. I couldn't have said it better myself!
/me claps
How long did it take you to come up with that one?
You reap what you sow.
some people cosither redbirds and the the resat of the subway "mashinery" an art !
Why would I want to see someone picking their nose in the next car? People are stupid. I want to see out the front as my train cruies along at an average speed of 18 mph.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
If we go back to the R-16, we get even more monotony. The R-32 (even though I like them) and R-38 are just stainless Redbirds.
The only reason I prefer the old cars is because they have a railfan window and provide a roller coaster type ride in both sound and feeling.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#Gas
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Looks like Amtrak dodged another close one. Let's hope they can resolve St. Loius->Kansas City problem as well.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#Michigan
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Another Happy Ending. we only notice that something is worth preserving once it is gone. This nearly happened to the Amtrak F40's but one man's dream prevented tragety.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#Fussell
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And NYC can't get any part of its 2nd Ave subway built.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#D.C.
With that in mind, PATH is a New Jersey system with a branch going into New York State. Is it NJ Path?
But let's not begrudge DC it's success with Metrorail.
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What a waste. Las Vegas gets a monorail when so many cities are in need of legitimate forms of transport. If people didn't piss so much money away gambling we might have more local tax revenue to support more transit.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#Las
---Brian
Not a dime of taxpayer money was used on this, it is funded on the most part through the Casinos. Whether Las Vegas builds a monorail line or not has absolutely NOTHING to do with other cities needing rail transport.
If people didn't piss so much money away gambling we might have more local tax revenue to support more transit.
Again, totally irrelevant. Any money spent by gamblers at Las Vegas, was already earned by the gamblers spending it in Las Vegas, and they already payed income tax to whatever state they live in on that income they used in Las Vegas for gambling. And do you really think that if there was no Las Vegas monorail being built that one of these other cities would be getting one because Las vegas isn't building one?
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#N.C.
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With much arm twisting no doubt.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#CSXto
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Someone asked about this awhile ago.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#CSXadjusts
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I hope they won't harm my beloved railfan window on the M-2/4/6 models by replacing them w/ newer designs.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03312003.shtml#More
---Brian
---Brian
There is the monorail. It really would have been nice if they put it in from Animal Kingdom, Disney MGM, and some more of the hotels.
There is the bus service. I'll bet that they have more lines and buses than most small cities.
They have ferryboats - even the classic double-ended ones. And they even have the NY Waterways style boats to run people back and forth to the resorts.
There's the horsecars on Main Street. And the Double Deckers on Main Street.
Where else can you come up with that much diversity?
I know...they need someplace to put Redbirds...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
-dave
Jimmy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24467.jpg
---Brian
Monday night. Snow. Ending after midnight. Windy. Lows in the lower 30s. Chance of snow 90 percent.
If it holds true, we could get nearly a foot of snow. Great, now I have to walk in the street again, and deal with the mounds of snow. Ugh, this is truly the winter that wont quit. Well, look on the bright side, it also could be sweltering in the 80s.
Yes, it is always better to be too cold than too hot. You can always add more clothes to keep warm. But once yer naked, you can't take off any more clothes. So I'd rather it be zero degrees than 100 degrees.
---Brian
---Brian
---Brian
Does my name give you a Clue ?
Vlad
---Brian
Also, when it's warm, you can always wear wet clothes.
Which will come in mighty handy if we don't come off orange alert soon. :)
www.forgotten-ny.com
My mission for tomorrow: the Astoria and Flushing lines.
A DARK cab is a HAPPY cab. Whoops.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
You know what, that's true. I haven't really thought about that lately. Years ago until the early 90's it was very common. I remember being on graffitied trains, in which all the windows were completely spray-painted, and they would always turn the lights out on the els. It would make the interior very dark, and any light entering would be sort of all different colors. That along with the orange doors, and interior graffiti would probably give someone a '70s-type trip without the drugs.....
I have to pay attention next time I'm on an outdoor train if they turn off the lights or not.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
---Brian
I know it's mostly unintentional, but it's a nice division.
---Brian
You must mean 32 years old. The R-44's came out in 1971.
Bill "Newkirk"
Built 1971-74 by St. Louis Car
I agree. Amazingly, I have come to terms with the R62s. I always disliked them. But now with at least they add some variety (and color in the form of the rollsigns) to the IRT lines, now the the redbirds are going...going....gone soon.
---Brian
To put 30 years in perspective, in the 30 years from 1900 to 1930, almost the entire IRT and BMT subway system we know today was built or massively rebuilt, and a good chunk of the IND was under construction. Also the SIRT was electrified, and the Hudson Tubes were built. Also a lot of the LIRR was electrified, and Penn Station and its attendant facilities. Do I have to go on?
What you should be doing is writing MTA and your elected officials about the opportunity we have now, instead of whining about the good old days. Your observations are correct, but I'm asking you to engage in a more productive activity at the same time. If you have time to post here, you have time to write a letter - so get on it.
To put it another way, Rome Wasn't Built in a Day, but if its building had been given to the MTA back when, they'd still be revising the DEIS of the Colosseum.
Do you want this subway or don't you? If you don't, fine, say so.
If you do want the subway, then cut the crap, put some paper in your printer and get to work.
Or better yet, since the "MTA" is already in favor, write a letter to the state legislature and threaten to work for "regime change" if it doesn't.
But still write to MTA - because you want to comment on the record (so your letter is included in the FEIS).
I did write to the MTA, but asked that my comment NOT be included as I am now an MTA employee (one of my comments is already in there from prior to my employment).
I have been talking with people and circulating the one concept -- the one threat -- that I think might get it built. No more infrastructure capacity, no more development permitted on the East Side, no more squeezed in workers and residents paying big time state and local taxes, net of services received, to be used for other Democratic and Republican special interests, elsewhere.
1951: Bond issue approved for 2nd Ave. Subway, permitting demolition of Third Avenue El. My parents graduate High School.
1953: Mayor Impellitieri runs for office with the 2nd Ave. Subway a strong plank in his platform. Withy the forming of the NYCTA, this line is widely reported in the press to be just months away from construction, projected to be in service by mid-sixties. My parents start dating.
1958: Bond Money intended for 2nd Avenue Subway goes for infrastructure projects in existing system instead. Third Avenue El gone. My parents get married.
**FAST FORWARD**
2003: NYDN reports 2nd Avenue Subway given "green light" for completion from the Battery to 125 Street. Construction time to be 12 years. My parents have long since retired to Florida.
THE TRUTH: This project will have taken EIGHTY-SEVEN YEARS to complete if its 2016 completion date is correct. The line was first proposed in 1929, and I think Our Heavenly Father will WALK down 2nd Avenue before the subway gets built!
Oh I know there have been missed opportunities over the years, and certainly this project is one of those. That's why I think there is more politicial push to get it done, especially by the Manhattan Borough President. -Nick
Make sure you contribute to the SDEIS. In writing.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
--Mark
Write to your elected representatives and voice your support.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
When regime change occurs here after the 2004 elections, we'll finally see everything promised for Iraq start to happen here and nothing will create jobs in New York like building a subway and other revitalizations ... I think it'll happen and progress on the paperwork would bring it about at JUST the right time when we have an administration that is concerned about Americans, and not a few rich friends.
And you can smell the winds of change coming ...
"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets
rid of Saddam Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with
food, medicine, supplies, housing, education - anything
that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally comes up with
a domestic agenda - and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring
that here if it works out." -- Jay Leno
But as others have said, capital funding has not been approved yet, and preliminary engineering just started last month.
Bryan
Best regards
Olle Kvarnsmyr
I myself did get a date by meeting someone at random in the subway - but it was on Philadelphia's Market-Frankford line.
I've also had social encounters on commuter rail and Amtrak.
This idea was written up in a few newspapers several months ago, but I doubt that it happens in practice, since most singles meet in bars, through affinity groups (churches, schools, etc.) or personal ads and computer matching services. So many people of all types ride the NY subways, that singles looking for singles would not stand out enough to notice.
Tom
Robert
What you know is incorrect.
Notice the carefully worded "it may be". I am not in a position to know what's going on at City Hall until they do it, but if it looks like a duck & walks like a duck I think it's a duck.
However I want to thank all the BERA instructors and members for giving of their time so I could learn. I did enjoy the training, and if you'll let me, I'll try again in 2004. I think we'll be at peace then. In the meantime I'll try to make Members' Day and some of the other Special Events this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Loitsch
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
That's very true my friend. BTW, one member of that class did the first of his three required trips with a Pilot, me, this Saturday. Was a birthday party, lots of very young screaming kids who needed to go to the bathroom a lot ... I'm happy to report he did just fine.
Mr t__:^)
8-) ~ Sparky
Steve Loitsch
I don't expect anyone to actually get the station (but you never know), but I'm going to assume it's somewhere in the Bronx. Most of the other photos are the early 60's, so I assume that is also the case here.
So, where is it and what kind of trains?
Big version of photo here (although I can't read the destination signs in that one either). Copy and paste - no direct links with Imagestation....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p50cdedb044abcfb0f0b333f1cdf317a6/fc7a8b9f.jpg.orig.jpg
For nostalgics, you can ride the Bronx Third Avenue El from end to end here:
http://www.palter.org/~subway/index.html
And while you're scoping it out, in THIS picture you can spot my ragtop Mustang parked on 204th and Webster ...
FINALLY ... in the same grouping that THAT shot is in, you can spot none other than Branford's car 5466 in THIS grouping while it was in revenue service on my friendly neighborhood el. Small world, n'est ce pas? :)
But the background buildings may still exist.
Tom
-Stef
What a SMALL SMALL WORLD! And my RAG TOP in the same set of pictures parked RIGHT on the corner. Ah, life is good. And for what it's worth, the paint job that they did on the WF's was the same in 5466 at the time. I think you'll find some of that two-tone blue if someone scraped deep enough. Blew my face off, I rode that baby just about every day ... wowsers!
And 5466 ... that's PRICELESS! :)
Strange little planet, eh? Damn I miss that el ...
They had to have special heavy duty high cranes to lift off the massive crossmembers once they were severed.
I also have a map image from 1889 showing the line, and a detailed map of the area that the reservoir would or does cover.
I will endeavor to make a web page on the subject.
Those early maps are very interesting due to the layout of the RR lines as shown.
-Stef
Speaking of substations. There is another substation in the "middle of nowhere" on Jamaica Ave, I think near where the Metropolitan Ave station used to be. I remembered it when the el was still connected to it, and I have seen it fairly recently also. It's blue, and very 60's looking, and used to have the TA logo on it (like the R40s used to have).
wayne
After comparing the picture to others, I agree with you. The shadows indicate the picture is taken from the Southbound platform during mid day layups. The buildings around 210th Street and 200th Street just do not seem to match the ones in the picture. This picture might help convince doubters.
Tom
Good job selkirk for getting it
By the way, I'm puzzled. In the NYCsubway.org photo, aren't those the R12's? I thought they were too heavy to run on the old els, and was one of the reasons both the 3rd Ave and the Myrtle El died. Why are they there then?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
HAVE YOU BEEN (heh heh) Behaving with your local area politicians lately (mooo)...!!!????
RE: That 3rd Ave El Station Photo above----
---Of course. I know that YOU know that I KNEW it was 204th street -- you know I have about 5000 photos of the 3rd ave El in my archives.....so I waited to see how long it took those here to figure it out ... AS YOU and I know --204th street was the only station to have its station houses on the south end of the platforms....the both entire platforms ran north from the stationhouse --- just the reverse of the Fordham Road Express, and the Manhattan 99th Street Local, El stations ---whose station houses (on the EL at 99th Street and below the El in a Brick housing at Fordham Rd.) were at the direct North end of the platforms.
Marker lights were changed at 204th street as it was the point of layup for Manhattan-Bronx (pre-May 12, 1955) Locals and exress trains. "EL" Trains dead headed to the center track southbound after PM rush hours from either 241st street (very early years service to that terminal) and later Gun Hll Road Terminal, had their markers changed at layup to be set for early AM downtown local and express rush hour services.
In the old late 1940's to mid 1950's days (my youth) El trains were laid up as far south as just above (north of) Tremont Avenue Express stations...and prior to 1950 they were also stored in the 179th Street Yards coming off the northbound local track just below 180th street Station. There were much more 3rd Ave "EL" services then --to South Ferry terminal, City Hall Terminal, and Bronx Park terminal on the north of Fordham Road.
Regarding Low V "Standard Bodies" - there were TWO types of body classes - (a) The Lower-Geared "Steinway cars" (all motors as built - never had trailers in trains of such in IRT Astoria and Flushing El services prior to 1950) --and (b) "Mainline Low-V's" --with higher, systemwide-standard higher gearing. Both shared the same body design.
Later came the 1939 Low-V "Worlds Fair Steinways" built in 1938...a fleet of 50 cars only of modified body design as we all know...to supplement and MU-trainline with the earlier "Standard Body Steinways".
"Mainline" Low-V's and ALL Steinway Low-V's (both Steinway body-style classes) could "air-iron and trainline-MU" together - BUT, because of the much lower geared motors of the Steinway Class, (for the Steinway Tunnel steep grades) -- resulting in unequal acceleration and drawbar stress of such --they were NEVER mixed in passenger service. Steinway Cars (ALL Motor cars) had a RED LINE under their car numbers...to identify them readily to yard and shop crews, and used "Mainline" Low-V trailers ONLY for trailer cars in their 8 to 10 car Steinway Motor consists. That is what was done at the end on the Bronx 3rd Avenue El.
The All-Low-V "standard" body trains you see in the 1970-1973 era 3rd Ave EL photos are "Mainline" Low-V (ie: Non-Steinway) cars which make up the TA Museum-Set seen in various fantrips on the EL. These "Low-V Mainline Standards" never mixed with their cousin-look-a-like carbody "Steinway Motors" nor the "1939 WF Steinway Motors" modified design bodies !
Marker Lights on the 3rd avenue El for Q type and MUDC expresses after 1950 were RED-RED both directions. After May 12, 1955 Manhattan operation cessation, the Bronx portion used RED-RED on both ends of trains to indicate "Shuttle" service...as was done on other IRT shuttle uses (ie: Bowling Green, Polo Grounds, etc.)
Regarding the IRT R-12's on the 3rd Ave El
(a) they were NOT too heavy for that structure --which was built new above Fordham Road in 1920 to
Contract 2 specs for heavy steel cars, and partially REBUILT to Contract 1 standards (like Broadway IRT EL and White Plains Rd Line El's in 1906-8) below Fordham Road to Harlem River, including replacing original island platform-stations (ie: Like Myrtle Ave El had) at many stops, and adding dual-platform express stations (Fordham, Tremont, 149th Street, and double decked ones at 143rd, 138th and 133rd Streets, between 1914-1916.
(b) R-12-14 cars (and any R-types) could run ONLY on the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave El - (and theoretically, from Harlem River, Bronx side, to 149th) from 149th street all the way to Gun Hill Road and of course, beyond.
(c) The R-12-14's ran with 4 cars ONLY ---as there were NO R-class trail cars ---and a 5th motor wasnt deemed necessary because of ridership drop on the "EL" by 1970 and thereafter.
(d) Operational MODIFICATIONS WERE done to to the R-type cars operating on the Bronx 3rd Ave El with the disconnection of the Dynamic brake feature -- due to a NYCTA engineering study that stated the stress of fast "dynamic mode" braking at station stops (which already swayed with the older "air-brake-only" mode of the older cars) would be harmful to the already ill maintained, neglected and aging structure. So they now braked like the older cars --- straight air-with electric-control portion
Well, Kevin (MOOooo) --that should answer any loose end in the abive threads, and as you KNOW, the old beloved car still run today, on my "EL" - along with R-types --we NEVER send anything to scrap on this system (heh) --see below and enjoy - Moooo
Regards - Unca Joe
Joseph Frank
New York City Transit Modelers Group
Steinway Low-V Motor cars in EL Local Train soon to replace IRT Q-Type El Cars by January 1957 as seen in layup on 3rd Ave El center express track.
Vlad
THANKS for the fill-in! :)
They'll be more where that came from, as long as people enjoy the old photos.
I was working all weekend.
It's funny, I probably post most while at work, many times while waiting for things to download or print, I do a quick sweep through SubTalk. Even at lunch break, if I eat in the office, I skim through subtalk. It helps ease the stresses of the day many times. And quick is sometimes an understatetement when I get home. If I skip a day or two of SubTalk, it takes FOREVER to catch up, especially when there are so many posts lately, and this is after skipping much of the stuff I am not as interested in! Sometimes though, a subject line may be something I am completely not interested in, but when I click on one randomly it is something interesting, and nothing to do with what the subject says!
Re: The "below 149th Street portion of the Bronx 3rd Ave El - Mellow One is correct in this little known or didcussed, or written about fact.
There were NO switches between express and NS and SB local tracks from the single ramped curving express track at 144th street...north to the 149th street Express station.
The only switches NORTH of 149th street were in the block around 153rd-154th street along 3rd Ave --between the Alexanders and Ludwig Baumann Stores (HEY!! Remember them fellow oldheads!) along the east side of 3rd Ave. These ---
(a) --allowed a southbound Local-express to enter the EXPRESS track, or a southbound EXPRESS to enter the southbound LOCAL track, into 149th street Station. (THAT train could then get back to the express track via the ramp at the south end lower (Local train) level 143rd street station to the upper "express" route level and into 138th street "upper level express" station platforms.)
(b) --By the set of switches on the Northbound local track above 149th Street Station which did the same in reverse...Express train on Local track at 149th Street Station NB got back to center track at 153rd street.....and a Manhattan Express could go LOCAL at swicthes there from center express track to local
(c) -- thusly, the two north-most switches of that interlocking, with you facing south along the center track, towards 149th street, took an express southbound into BOTH local tracks...obviously "wrong rail" going left into the opposing NB Local Track.
However, trains could have "turned there" when terminating at 149th Street Station..using that
" Y " setup..tho a bit cumbersome as the motorman would have to change cabs (train ends) THREE times
that way !!
The other way was the longer distance (8 blocks approx) south of 149th street to and thru the lower level 143rd Street Station....then swicth left and UP the Ramping "center track" to the upper level...changing ends (cabs) and running back down the ramp and switching right at the "Y" switch at the bottom...into the NB local track at the lower level of 143rd Street Station, and continuing northbound on local track to 149th street station.
The ramp here in mention was used (after years of limited little use) and the switches outined in (a) and (b) above --- were used to re-route North (PM) and South (AM) bound express trains to and from the express and local tracks above and below 149th Street Station AFTER the center track was discontinued from (upper level of) 143rd street and " S " curving down its ramp to 3rd Avenue and into 149th street.
By Early Friday morning on 9-24-1954 the work for the express track at 149th street station being boarded over commenced. The 138th to 143rd Street "Ramp" trackage and switches from upper to lower level had been overhauled and began use. From that point on, Upper level 3rd Ave Express trains used the LOWER (Local) level platform at 143rd street, and entered 149th street NB and SB via the LOCAL only tracks. The 149th street "platform" and center canopy conversion was completed by mid November.
Meanwhile - at the north end of 149th Street Station, work for the new interlocking towerhouse over the express track "pit" at the north end of the platforms, was under way. This was completed by December 1954 --I have a photo I took of it from a SB EL Local MUDC in early evening ( 4PM ) --but the crossover was not yet built at that time.
NOTE: In March and April 1954 the NYCTA installed new switches from local to express tracks NB & SB just above 174th street Station for raising the EL structure 14 feet for the Cross bronx Expressway being built then. This allowed one track at a time to be raised --while re-routing trains off the track being raised at a given time. I keenly remember riding the el during in that area during that time...once in a blinding rainstorm! I have photos on and around the el during that construction thru 1954.
BTW - Demolition on the El in Manhattan started N & S of 115th street on August 3, 1955....and the Harlem Bridge was gone and riveredge and river-center stone piers (I have the news clippings!) were blasted out an removed on May 22, 1956. "mellow one" is right ---the Bronx portion below 149th street was kept until the (completed...by May-June 1956) X-Over at 149th street and the longer-taking full Block Signaling of the El was finished...by the end of 1956. This included changing 3rd rail to subway type along of the line. The IRT EL Q types and EL MUDC cars could not run during this 3rd rail changeover, so this was done during Steinway Low-V car train-operation which had already started by Jan. 1957...These cars had 3rd rail "paddle" shoes that could operate on either el or subway position 3rd rail.
A few minues after midnight on Saturday, December 15, 1956, the first train of 4 IRT Steel "Steinway Low-V" Motors and two "Mainline Low-V" trailers left Gun Hill Road southbound --with cars (M) 4757, (T) 5642, (M) 4700, (M) 4716, (T) 5638 and (M) 4768.
I assume that at this point ---or shortly before, the new Crossover at 149th street, interlocking tower, and all new signaling, were tested and working properly...obliterating the need for the "train reversing 'Y' function El structure below 148th street (to Harlem River) and this structure was gone by Early 1957.
The ex-BMT, now IRT "Q" types provided most of the 24 hour Bronx 3rd Ave El servive from mid- 1955 thru Dec. 1956..but the last EL "wood" train northbound from 149th Street that night was IRT "Manhattan Railway" El MUDC cars - with first car # 1795, 1793, 1754, 1778. 1761 and 1780..all MUDC Motor cars. That ended wood cars on the 3rd ave El !
With the removal of all wood cars, including IRT EL "Pay-Car G" (built 1870 and now at Branford Museum)
and Q-Type 1634-A (Motor) -- a backup Pay Car for the IRT EL, these were replaced by steel Steinway car # 4517, and 2 alcohol cars for the EL were Steinways # 4515 & 4516. At this time also Electric lower running lights were just being added to the steinway cars (all Motor cars). Trains are run in 6 car sets ---business was very good on the bronx el back then !! --- Cars with the electric (replacing kerosene) lower running lights were kept on ends of the consists. The 1939 WF Steinways entered the el around 1963...and trains were reduced to 5 cars ----4 motors and 1 trailer..mixing both Steinway classes at times...but relieving the oldest 1915-17 era "standard-body" Steinways to work-duty or scrapping.
Thanks Kevin ---guess the, heh, historic text data was too much for the multitudes to absorb all at once...and I forgot some photos ---so I will post some more now for those earlier who expressed an interest -- sort of the icing on the "dull" long-ago "dark-ages era transit" text-cake !!
I'm sure ya'all know the rolling stock subject matter !
Kevin..they say a picture is worth a 1000 words ---MOOoo---- !!!
Regards !!! Unca Joe
Joseph Frank - Webmaster
New York City Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
Soon, we'll be reading tales of those old fashioned "redbirds" larger than life with all the rot conveniently forgotten about. Heh. I'm looking forward to it actually.
The center track of the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx ceased express operations with the end of service south of 149th St to Manhattan on May 12, 1955. The express track remained unused except for the portion from Gun Hill to the Mosholu Pkwy structure, where the rush hour trains would lay up. About 1956 or 1957 the xovers were removed from the Fordham Road station and a bumper was installed on the Mosholu Pkwy structure on the express track to prevent passage south of that point. However, the rest of the express track and the xovers remained at the Tremont station and south of the156th St Station.
Note: The structure south of the 149th St Station to the river remained in use for turn-backs for a couple of years until the xover at 149th St was signaled for turn-back use. About 1959 (I need some help here) the wooden equipment, the Q’s and MUDCs were removed from service and replaced with the IRT Low-V cars and was the line was converted to subway (covered) third rail.
The wooden equipment was stored on the express track south of Tremont all the way to 156th St. The were xovers to the center track just south of that station. Some time before I went into the Navy in 1962, that equipment was removed. Most the MUDC's were destroyed and the Q cars went to the Myrtle Ave Line in Brooklyn replacing the Gate cars there.
During the changeover from the open third rail to the covered third rail, the Tremont Ave station was used as a turn-back station for the north and south bound trains as each side had the third rail installed. The xovers and center express platform at Tremont Ave were used for this operation. And, once the wooden equipment was removed from the center track south of Tremont.
So, I would guess that after 1962, the center track fell into disrepair and was slowly eliminated as the rail was cannibalized for use elsewhere on the line. Only the center track north of Mosholu Pkwy remained. I believe that it remained in use for a while even after service was terminated on the line. We were living in Connecticut in 1971, 2 &3 and we would visit my parents in the Bronx.
If anyone has a correct time line of the events described here, it would be useful for the line-by-line descriptions for this site.
Another item of note is that the Substation at 161st St was taken out of service with conversion to the subway third rail.
After checking both a 1948 map and a 1959 map, I find no reference to Mosholu Pkwy. Where is it?
Tom
Didnt you read my indepth date post placed 2 hours
BEFORE your one following it and being answerd, corrected here, now.????
********************************
I have covered, correctly in factual details, the partially incorrect data of your post above --- re:
the Crossovers at 149th, the 147th street to Harlem River section of the el (Gone long before the year 1959 you stated)...the crossovers were operational by December 1956 and conversion of all wood rolling stock by steel All-Steinway Motor Low-V's (NOT "regular" Motor-Low-V's)...and ALL Manhattan El and Q types were removed by March 1957 from the EL center track storage....to the BMT CI Yards for overhaul, and the MUDC's taken to the White Plains Rd Line and headed south under power to E. 180th street and switched to the Dyre Line and run southbound on the former NYW&B south (western-most) local track south from 180th St. NYW&B station down the downgrade to just above the E. 172nd street (about 174th street) track connections to the New Haven RR Mainline. The outside rail of that local track was removed for a few lengths to allow, one by one, the IRT EL MUDC cars, one by one, to be rolled OFF the track, and embankment, and to fall into the ground below formerly occupied by Starlight Åmusement Park...to be dragged by tractors to the scrap "lineup rows" and burned. Most of these were trailer cars and B/O Motor cars. Some MUDC Motor cars were stripped for underbody running gear spare parts at 239th street shops and their trucks, and the body shells were flatbed trucked to the Starlite "graveyard". ALL (not "most" per your statement) were scrapped...NON were saved past mid-late 1957...all scrapped by then. The Q types furnished most of the Bronx 3rd Ave El service...along with a tiny few MUDC trainsets....freeing up the majority of the MUDC's to be slowly scrapped from late May 1955 thry early 1957.
In mid-to-late 1956 the TA had already had designs on moving the Q's to Myrtle Avenue El. In late MARCH 1957 a Single BMT Q type Motor Car (cant remember the number but it WAS an IRT service Q, not a QX unit) ran as the 2nd car of a 4 car "test" train on the Myrtle El, MU'd with a BU 1300 Gate car at rear and two BU gates ahead. I have a photo of that taken down near Fort Greene projects.
In early May 1957, the first IRT Q type transferred to the BMT Myrtle line, in a Maroon body with silver roof, and door tread extenders, unit # 1618 A-B-C was run on the Myrtle El....and on the early eveing of June 21, 1957, freshly painted Q type # 1625 A-B-C was tried for "on board" nightime fare collection on the Myrtle El for two round-trips - leaving Fresh Pond Yard and starting at Metropolitan Avenue Terminal southbound around 7PM and making a last southbound trip from there a few minutes after 8PM. Only One car containing the conductor, who had a portable farebox, carried passeners...by him opening only one door. BU Gate cars still rulled most operation during thst time.
NOTE: On October 10, 1957, from 5 AM to 10PM, 3 sets of Q former IRT El Q-types - in new Maron bodies and silver roofs, operated on the BMT Franklin Shuttle. By late day only ONE 3 car unit was running --the other 2 went bad-order. They did not operate well due to the steep upgrade from Eastern Parkway portal up to the Fulton El structure remnant Franklin Ave. terminal. The last running Q was yanked at 10PM that same night.
By April 1, 1958, enough ex-IRT Q types were overhauled and repainted with Maroon bodies and silver roofs, to completely take over ALL Myrtle Ave El service, replacing the 3 to 5 car BU elevated Car car train consists. The April 7, 1957 thru late March 1958 reconstruction of the line, including re-building station houses and extending the island platforms below B'way-Myrtle junction on the "original" el for accpeting Q-type 6-car "rush-hour"sets ( two 3-car units) had been completed.
Re: The center track on the 3rd ave El below Tremont....it was kept "live" and used by work trains from mid 1955 thru late 1956, powered by IRT wood EL MUDC's, to aid in overhaul and conversions to the line...including signal removals on the center track...and delivery and installation of new signals on local tracks. The center track was used ONLY for very rare, occasional IRT steel-car hauled work trains from early 1957 thru 1960 in refurbishing the track deckwork and primarily removing scrapped crossings, switches connecting it to the outside local tracks, and removing remaining express track "IRT-Manhattan Railway" era signals. By 1960-1 the express track was totally abandoned below Tremont to at least 161st St., and and sporadic track crews did slow, piecemeal removal of old steel rail sections over the next few years...with the work trains removing the rails, placed trackside during the day, at late night trips on the local tracks. That is why the switches at 153rd Street (mentioned in my post earlier) remained nearly to the end of service..or at least to 1968-9 or so. The center track below 156th street was kept live until 1963-4 with subway type covered 3rd Rail (and a SB facing flimsy pipe-bracketed bumper in the middle of the 156th street station) southbound to the late-1954 installed large wooden bumer on the express track just below the interlocking at 153rd street ---that heavy bumber installed then when Manhattan bound express trains were forced to exit center track at 153rd street (and also enter it uptown bound) and use local tracks into 149th street station due to the late 1954 covering of the center track with a platform at that station.
The center track above 200th street (via a NB facing Bumber on the high Bedford Park ornate El)...remained for layup until the end.
Re: my accuurate rememberences, the 161st Street substation operated (and I was in it 2x in the late 60's) to the end of service as it FED the 3rd Ave El AND the White Plains Rd. subway via cables the el carried to the subway down columns at and under the 149th street El station. THATS why that section of the El structure remained standing from 161st street to 149th street 15 months after everything NORTH of the buss-cable-bridge and walkway from the EL structure to the substantion (including the entire 161st st. station) was removed by early 1974. The cables had to be re-routed from the substation, underground, to the # 2 subway. I have photos of that remaining structure and its later-date demolition also. I believe the substation was de-commissioned by the mid 1980's - as I recall seeing some commercial (tires, and whatnot) operation in there by sometime in the mid to late 1980's - or via whom can confirm its exact date of de-commissioning.
So, Mellow One, I think and hope I have corrected all your inncoent errors within here....and yes, Mr.Palters' photo website does bring back fond 1960's thru 1973 El memories---tho I have fonder ones of pre-1956 years into Manhattan on the EL !
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
NYCMTA- NYCTMG- NYCMTS
PS: Here's some T.A.R.S. trolley Photos of long ago Bronx (on My layout system) to enjoy !
And, below, all their replacements by the late 1950's !! (Heh, belongs on BUS TALK!!)
My memories are getting fuzzier every year.
That why I asked for help on this.
Your description of the death of the MUDCs was very gruesome.
I was attending Cardinal Hays HS in the Bronx 1958/59 and used the el every day during that time to/from 204th St.
I wanted to get the time line straight for the removal of the wooden equipment from service, the last time the structure south of 149th St was used and its removal date, and the replacement of the third rails.
I did travel the line during the third rail conversion and the single track operation on the weekends when it was being done. However, I could not remember the exact dates, and for some reason, I never had a camera available. I did not remember that the center track below 156th St was equipped with subway third rail. I guess that was done to turn back a train for whatever reason.
Do you happen to know when the 149th St connecting structure to the Westchester Ave Line was removed. Was it incorporated into the later Bergen St extension, or was it dismantled then?
Many years ago, I purchased a bunch of AHM oldtime passenger cars with the hope of converting them somehow to run on my own HO model El system. I finally realized that the best scheme was to use the Bachman HO Trolley components for the power units. However, there was still a lot of kit bashing involved. The structure components were too much of a challenge for me. So, I never got further than building a wooden structure that looked more like the Rockaway concrete elevated structure. I still have a roll of double track fibre tie strip that was the best looking tie simualtion for the el tracks. Curves were a monsterous problem. I salute you.
There are some interesting videos of the various ELs at http://www.backinthebronx.com/catalog.htm
I do have a video of the 3rd Ave El. There are olny a couple of shots of my old neighborhood. It has a quick view of the Gun Hill approach looking west and the Mosholu Pkwy portion shot from Mosholu Pkwy looking southwest across Frisch Field.
Thanks again,
THANKS for putting that up there, my gratitude ALSO to Joe Frank for HIS treats of the el that meant so much to those of us who grew up in the Bronx and appreciated the treasure as much as BMT fans appreciated the old Myrt ... ours at least had more stops. Heh.
If you want another ragtop mustang, there are lots of them out
here in California (I know it wont be the same tho).....
But what was special about the 3rd Avenue was the wonderful wrought iron railings on some stations and the Rube Goldberg pipework on others. Not to mention the LoV's. Once again though, THANKS for the site, and all those wonderful photos!
My railfan heritage gaes back a long way.
Did you see my post about going to the Bronx Park terminal.
I used to hang out at the Fordham Hobby Center on Fordham Road just east of the 3rd Ave El Station. There used to be a bunch of car dealerships there also. That's where I saw my first Edsel and the Dodge Turbine car. I hung out with Roger Arcara, Ray Crapo, and a few other rail fans, who I can't remember thier names any more. I accompanied Roger on some trips to get data on some different lines in and around NYC. One was to the BEDT to see the steam engines in action. We also went on the initial Red Car Inaugeration trip to commemorate the NYW&B. I have some pix of that buried somewhere in my mess.
Thanks very much for your assistance in documenting the transition of the 3rd Ave El to the Bronx only opoeration.
Well, I'm kind of pushing it here if I think anyone can get the station with the hipped roof on this one, but at least maybe someone can recognize the line it's on. I think (think being the key word), one of the destination signs may say South Ferry, and I think the car number may be 1148 if that helps anyone.
So, where is it and what kind of trains?
Thanks!
Big version of photo here. Copy and paste - no direct links with Imagestation....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pa78aed994e63ac559d02ca9f58013f6e/fc7a8b88.jpg.orig.jpg
I am not sure that is a station roof, but possibly a tower at or near the end of a station. The fact that the sign on the car reads South Ferry means it is either 3rd or 9th Ave. El. Because of the script on the sign at the left end of the picture I guess this is after the demise of the 9th Ave. El, so it is most likely the 3rd Ave. The el in Manhattan from 125th Street to Chatam Square was very straight, and only two tracks south of Chatam Square, so the curve is somewhere north of 125th Street. Is it 129th Street? 210th Street?
Tom
F: R32,R46
M: R40M,R42
N: R40,R40M, some R42 and R68/A
Q: R40,R40M,R42 (diamond), R40M,R42,R68/A (circle)
R: R46, possibly a few R32
W: R68/A only
I don't know who said the R-32's were gone from CI, but they most certainly are not. There are plenty, most signed as F. I imagine they're probably rush-hour put-ins @ Kings Highway. There are none on the N or W, however, and few (if any) on the R. Whatever leftover (N) consists are running on the (W) on weekends is limited to R68 and/or R68 cars only, All R40-R42 cars were signed as M, N, or Q (a few in maintenance were signed as L and Z).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
My prediction is the weatherpeople are wrong again, like they were yesterday. We should have done the trip today, the weather was much nicer, but Sunday freqeuencies are not.
But losing an hour of sleep is great, sleep is EVIL. A necessary EVIL, but still EVIL.
Hopefully one day someone will cure sleep. Why is it that people don't consider something that robs you of a third of your life to be evil?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management."
Doesn't say anything about asking questions being bad. As long as it involves the topics above, I don't think it matters if it's "new information" or "questions", as long as it's rapid/rail transit related.
True, there are no rules, but there is common courtesy. Mike may be sensitive because mention was made of his prolific, but shallow posting a couple of years ago. (IIRC he indicated that he was trying to start three new threads a day for the entertainment of Subtalkers.) It takes time to read a new thread to find out if it is interesting or not, quality is appreciated much more than quantity.
Tom
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
And after this thread I will not entertain any more complaints about Subtalk being slow.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And I don't know what kind of "complaints about Subtalk being slow" that you've received lately, but you know I've already told you that since Thursday night (I think), SubTalk has been SUPER FAST and I love it!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpresss2005 - R143 #8265
L Train - R110B
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
The same thing happened the following week, except the T/O already knew he had to buzz at each stop.
AMI
Most of the reports I've seen list the crush load level of the R36 at 165 people. A figure of 200 would give each person less than 0.2 m2 of floor space. Various references list that threshold as being "Totally Intolerable".
OTOH, I have seen the 200 figure used in TA documents that sought to show that existing service levels were adequate. I had discounted them as typical TA fabrication. :-)
You can discount the numbers if you wish but these are the numbers published by NYCT.
It would appear that they also publish a lower set of numbers for the Second Avenue Subway SDEIS Table 5B-1. The source they quote is: NYCT Division of Operations Planning/Facilities & Equipment Planning, "Subway Vehicle Passenger Capacities," December 18, 1992.
Do you know, if they might have revised their figures in a later reference?
Clearly we have two sources of contradictory information, published by two different entities with differing missions. As I said previously, you can choose to discount whichever set of numbers you choose not to believe.
I just took a look at the Second AVenue developments on the MTA site. I came across a draft of the new map. Is it going to be permanent that they are going to create a T Train that will run on second avenue and the Q gets an extension? Didn't they have a QT train before? Thanks?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Q and U would be a great statement.
Also at 2nd Avenue/Houston you would get the F U V.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Actually, this is a serious question, prompted by some recent threads that I've just been reading. I can tell it's something that prompts a major rearrangement of service, but that's all I've been able to figure out so far.
Thanks, guys. I'm glad I got *one* word right. :-) I figured it had to be construction or a temporary failure of some sort.
There is loads & loads of stuff on this site besides the BBS, so you had better block off some time to get up to speed with the rest of us
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Should you run into any other jargon in need of translation, you can try here.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Choo Choo: That's double what I charge.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Wow, you'll pay me if I ask you for help?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Choo-Choo: Here's my price list
IRT Questions (easy) $1.00
BMT Question (not so easy) $2.00
IND Question (a little hard) $3.00
PATH Question (a little harder) $4.00
Sea Beach Line (don't ask, you couldn't afford it)
Of course as a professional courtesy to a fellow sub-talker I will waive all fee.
Larry, Redbird R33
But I would think a PATH question would be the easiest since that is a much smaller system than the IRT, BMT, or IND. In fact, growing up, I read my dad's copy of "Tubes Under the Hudson" many times over and knew a lot about PATH/H&M before I started reading about the NYC subway.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
For such a small system there are several abandoned stations, unused tunnel sections and at one time there was a fairly complicated fare structure.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Newark
World Trade Center
wayne
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
They were only born in '86!
Overhauled trucks and TBUs
New Propulsion packages - Possibly AC
New Air Brake Packages
New Air Compressors
New HVAC ewuipment
Possibly replace the M-A with a converter
Overhaul Door Controls
New Door Hangers
Perhaps new floors
Ammenities Upgrades.
1.on the pic of R68#2502,to the far left of the pic,there seems to be a R44 or R46 with the orange Q on it,do all the R44/46 have all the
letters of the BMT/IND on there front rollsigns?
2.there,s a pic of R42#4594,where it,s mate 4595?(note.captions say pic
is R40,when it,s an R42.hope you can fix it dave)
3.what happened to R32#3620,it,s boarded up,and where is it,s mate.is
it in survice.
4.the front of R44#314 seems to have an LED front rollsign.was this going to be put on all R44 or was it just some test for something new.
til next time
til next time
Replace ( and ) with < and >, this done so I can avoid putting a actual link...
(A HREF="URL")Link Title(/A)
I forgot how to post pics in the actual post.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
(img src="url")
such as (img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i24000/img_24469.jpg")
would give you
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
(img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24451.jpg)
(img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24460.jpg)
(img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24469.jpg)
(img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24425.jpg)
trying to post pics.
til next time
the 44s signs was just an experemnt that had beennprove unsesesful !
hope this Helps !
1.on the pic of R68#2502,to the far left of the pic,there seems to be a R44 or R46 with the orange Q on it,do all the R44/46 have all the letters of the BMT/IND on there front rollsigns?
When they were working on the other side of the Manhattan Bridge, Broadway trains were closed to the bridge, and the Q ran on 6th Ave instead of Broadway. That's why it's orange instead of yellow. IINM, I think "Q" is the only letter in more than one route color (aside from "S" of course).
2.there,s a pic of R42#4594,where it,s mate 4595?(note.captions say pic is R40,when it,s an R42.hope you can fix it dave)
Yup, you are right, that is an R42 (lloks like Dave already fixed it).
That sure is wierd to see it by itself - cool photo. I don't know why it's by itself. Seeing that it's in CI Yard, maybe they were doing work on it?
A: orange (R-110B only), blue
B: orange, yellow
D: orange, yellow
Q: orange, yellow
R: yellow, brown
S: orange, yellow, gray
Not all of these are necessarily found on all cars.
3.what happened to R32#3620,it,s boarded up,and where is it,s mate.is it in survice.
Another very interesting photo. It looks real sad all boarded up. like an abandoned building. I hope someone has the answer to this one. Although again, it is at CI yard, so they may just be working on it.
4.the front of R44#314 seems to have an LED front rollsign.was this going to be put on all R44 or was it just some test for something new
Wow, I'm glad they didn't continue with that idea! It must've been a test. Anyone know if that car kept that digital sign?
Bent frame; out of service. Answer found right here.
You must use the HTML tag: (img src="http://websiteofphoto"), replacing the parenthesis with inside and outside brackets. You can also link pictures from the posting board, but this makes the image appear right on your message area.
For example:
I took this personally during a late, summer afternoon at Metuchen with a shabby 200 speed camera. The train wasn't moving fast, though, so you see no blurs.
But as to things that go around, I look forward to seeing (and hearing) the B&B Caroussel yet again.
1) Subway cars you think of as the "new cars" are close to retirement age.
2) You remember all 4 tracks on the Manny B in service...at the same time.
3) You still look for the cartoon display when your Manhattan-bound train goes thru the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station.
4) You actually rode the Culver Shuttle, Myrtle Avenue El, or Third Avenue Shuttle (8 Train on the map) in regular service.
5) You got on/off a QJ train at 168th Street in Queens, or rode an E train out to Far Rock.
6) You still cry that the LIRR Rockaway ROW should be where the Airtrain runs...PS I saw a story about this in Thursday's Daily News, hint hint.
7) You waited on Queens Blvd for an R-1/9 E Train, passing up several E's of "new cars" to do it, back in 1977.
8) You have half-fare weekend tickets in your drawer from those days (1979) or a bunch of old R1 school passes.
9) You remember when transit cops carried only .38s, not MP5's.
10) You remember when the RR (or QT!) went to Astoria and the 2 went to New Lots, the M went to Coney Island and there was a Shuttle from Bowling Green to the Ferry.
Feel free to add a few of your own! ;-)
Yes, Lincoln really did have a beard!:-)
You know you're getting older when the terms "SUBWAY" and "EL" had specific meanings.
You know you're getting older when you remember when the transit system had four divisions. And I don't mean the South Brooklyn.
Larry, RedbirdR33
You remember riding Lo-V's on the #3 7 Av-Lenox Exp.
You remember the Orchard Beach Bus Tokens.
You remember them boarding over the center track at 149 Street on the Third Avenue El in preparation for converting it into a terminal.
You recall seeing a train of Steinways crossing the Putnam Bridge going to the Polo Grounds.
You know you're really old when you remember when instead of three subway divisions we actually had three separate companies. (I don't.)
Larry, RedbirdR33
Don't you mean Hi-Vs on the 7th Ave Express?
Tom
Tom
I'm sure that I did ride Hi-V's on the 7 Avenue Exp but most of my memories of the old cars were the Lo-V's and Steinways on the #4 and #5. During the last month or so of the old cars in mainline service they were shifted to the #3 and so a chance to ride a Lo-V on the #3 was a treat for me. I rode the train up to 145 Street-Lenox Av which was the northern terminal at the time and it arrived on the exit-only northbound platform. I crossed the street to the southbound platform and explained my situation to the token clerk. She let me go through the gate without paying another fare.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes indeed. From 1956 until sometime in the 1960's the Rockaway Lines were considered a separate division. Through rush-hour trains actually changed crews at Euclid Avenue which was the Division Point. I wonder when the Rockaway Division was officially absorbed into the IND Division?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Even better, let's send today's politicians back to 500,000 B.C. We'll see how well they deal with hungry saber-toothed tigers.
If I had a time machine (and found when & where your parents met each other) I could go back to that time and place and prevent your parents from ever meeting. (Most people find their spouse by accidental meetings, like introduction by a friend. There are few, if any arranged marriages in our society.) So, you never get born.
You also could prevent the Titanic sinking in 1912, so people who died then, don't.
Or, go back to that date in 1918 (Malbone St.) and knock Luciano away from the controls long before the train reaches Malbone St. and bring it to a stop. Nobody dies.
Time is very malleable. The slightest thing can change the future. By going back in time and affecting what happened, you mold the clay.
If time travel is possible (and it's been postualted that it might be)
then changing the past will affect the future.
Time is very mallable. You actually change the future by everything you do.
Why? Well, Parsons builds the subway using plans I brought with me from the future. My travelling back through time to meet him is part of the time loop that gets the subway built. But, I deliver plans for the subway to him four years before he draws them up. So Parsons, in this paradox, will NEVER draw up the actual plans for the subway, since he got them from me. The fascinating question is, WHERE DO THOSE PLANS COME FROM?
I take them with me because in my timeline, Parsons DID design and build a subway in NYC from 1900 to 1904. So I have his original drawings. But in the past, I alter history by giving Parsons both the idea and the technical drawings which (in my time) he will draw up in 1897. Einstein once rejected a version of the above scenario, since if you look at it carefully enough you will see that it makes grape juice out of cause and effect.
But all the same, wouldn't it be fun to mess with history just a little bit? Yes, I am a BIG Harry Turtledove fan...hee hee hee.
OK I'll put down the QUACK pipe.
1) Subway cars you think of as the "new cars" are close to retirement age.
...have been in The Subway Yard in the Sky for a decade.
2) You remember all 4 tracks on the Manny B in service...at the same time.
You look up from your newspaper when your Q train starts across the Manny B and wonder why you've been rerouted to Nassau Street.
3) You still look for the cartoon display when your Manhattan-bound train goes thru the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station.
You wonder why your Brighton Express is bypassing Myrtle.
4) You actually rode the Culver Shuttle,
You wonder why R1-9s are parked on tracks E and F in Coney Island instead of BMT Standards or BU shuttles.
8) You have half-fare weekend tickets in your drawer from those days (1979) or a bunch of old R1 school passes.
You have a dime-sized token holder in your drawer.
10) You remember when the RR (or QT!) went to Astoria and the 2 went to New Lots, the M went to Coney Island and there was a Shuttle from Bowling Green to the Ferry.
You knew that letter trains ran only on the IND.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Then there were the "For Wash. Hts, the Bronx and Queens trains, use underpass" signs on the s/b platform at 42ns St. Or having to use the underpass?
How about when the Chrystie St. connector opened and the resulting mass confusion, misdirected trains, reassigned rolling stock, etc.?
There would still have to be a news conference because no one would read flyers and posters. And no one would listen to announcements either!
I guess that I am getting old.
-- Ed Sachs
We did not know anything about #15 either.
It was simply the Jamaica Train!
Is that ancient enough? ;-)
Pig take a Bow !
2. When you know which color marker lights are your line. (BMT Standard)
3. When you remember the World's Fair paint job on the 7.
4. When you remember the station platform extension and no express track operations on the Brighton line for six months (1965).
5. Times Square Records-record store in station specialized in doo-wop.
Future memorable-TOKENS!
-The M to Coney Island,
-Four tracks on the Manhattan Bridge all open,
-I have used R-1 school passes (and still have them),
Let's add:
1. You remember "Please keep hands off the door." stickers.
2. YOu remember "No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta" stickers.
3. You remember orange interior doors on most trains.
4. A clean train - What's that?
5. An ungraffitied elevated station - What's that?
6. The N runs on Queens Blvd.
7. Unscratched windows
8. The woodgrain interior of the R46s matches your father's (or your own) car.
9. 49th Street/Broadway is a modern looking station.
14. You got on at Broad Channel and could expect to get to Woodside.
There have got to be other signs that say that it is time to pack it in!
17) Lucy on the D-Type with a trophy on her head
18) The Incident
19) Green illuminated destination signs
20) Fire extinguishers accessible by passengers
21) AVISO: La via del tren es peligrosa...
Seriously I think JayZee is thinking of an old movie.
1440 #4 (wrecked by that drunken motorman at Union Square)
The World's Fair-Steinways, regular Steinways and Lo-V trailers were in use on the el up until Novemebr 1969. In the last year of old car service even the museum Lo-V Motors were pressed into service.
There were three trains of old cars left when I rode the el on October 18,1969.
1st) WF 5669,Lo-VM 5483,Lo-VT 5356,WF 5666,WF 5655
2nd) StM5641,WF5670,StM 5636,Lo-VT 5353,WF 5676
3rd) WF 5679,WF 5684,Lo-VT 5340, WF 5658,Lo-VM 5466
The last old train ran in the am rush on November 3,1969. Its consist was StM 5641, WF 5670, Lo-VT 5353, StM 5636, WF 5676.
Larry, RedbirdR33
A shade of green would liven this car up!
-Stef
thanks
The biggest passenger plane at Idlewild still had propellers...
Penn Station was still Penn Station, and Grand Central Terminal was still grand (I know, it is once again, but it wasn't for a long time)...
When you changed engines at South Amboy, it was for a K4...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had a friend who drove a '48 DeSoto cab in Brooklyn. It was a big yellow "boat", with bright red fenders. I thought it as the greatest vehicle that I had ever seen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The neighborhood "hack stand" was eliminated around 1950, and I don't know where it was relocated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bite your tongue. The last real Packards were the ‘56 line. I had my heart set on earning enough money to someday buy a 400 or Patrician, and wondered if there was anything left in life working for when they announced the sale to Studebaker. But Packard lives!! And BTW, the best Studebaker was the 1955 Speedster (aka the Banana Boat).
Tom
No argument from me there... as noted, it was just a fancy Studebaker. I was hoping to find a photo on the web of my old car, but no luck... the fellow who bought it from me did a very nice job of restoring it (I saw the car after he got done). When I had it (late '70s), it was a tired old daily driver in need of a complete overhaul. Took the new owner about ten years to complete the restoration.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
do you have any pics of that car ?
thanks
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl: You know you're getting older when taxicabs could seat eight people in comfort.
When most of the ferries on the Hudson were run by the railroads and carried vehicles as well as passengers.
When you remember the "WALL STREET" and "THE CRUSADER" running between Jersey City and Broad Street Terminal, Philadelphia via CRRNJ and the Reading.
When everY railroad had one premier train that had superiority over every other train on the railroad.
NYCRR THE TWENTIETH CENTURY LIMITED
PRR THE BROADWAY LIMITED
CRRNJ THE QUEEN OF THE VALLEY
ELRR THE PHOEBE SNOW
LIRR THE CANNONBALL
NYO&W THE MOUNTAINEER
NYNH&H THE MERCHANT'S LIMITED
D&HRR THE MONTREAL LIMITED
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The back seat of that '48 DeSoto was huge! We even got my bike and newspapers in with no trouble at all.
When most of the ferries on the Hudson were run by the railroads and carried vehicles as well as passengers.
I rode the ferry from Barclay St to Hoboken many times, but always as a walkon passenger, never in a motor vehicle.
PRR THE BROADWAY LIMITED
This is the only one I ever got to ride. I made the trip from Penn Station to Harrisburg, and hated to have to get off. It was a real treat to have dinner in the diner.
I remember them, but we couldn't afford to ride in them, except for one time when we were seeing someone off on a ship to England. I got to ride on one of the jump seats, and the steamer trunk was lashed to luggage rack on the rear of the cab. Just the thought of a window in the roof seemed so exotic at the time.
Tom
6A. Bought a ticket for a nickel and gave it to the ticket chopper
David
You mean the ones in the 1970s that didn't clear the traffic lights on 5th Avenue? :)
--Mark
5b. Fifth Ave. ran in both directions.
And I remember wooden escalators at A & S when they were in Downtown Brooklyn.
You have no desire to stand at the railfan window and look for ST and GT signals.
You long to hear a "THWACK" when the doors close.
You want to hear the chugging sound and the whine of the air compressor charging the brake pipe and to hear it shut down with a woosh and a hiss.
Northbound: 23rd St, 40th St, 54th St
Southbound: 57th St; 46th St; 19th St; Canal St; Chambers St; Rector St; Battery Tunnel.
I suppose you'll want the entrances next.
Being able to buy a piece of Beechnut gum for a penny or Reeds (hard candy) for a nickel from one of the THOUSANDS of vending machines attched to posts in Midtown, downtown Brooklyn and Queens Blvd.
Those machines are a great subway station memory.
12) You rode R-11s on the #3 To Coney Island
13) You rode R-10s on the Eastern Division (a loooooong time ago)
14) The "Heart Attack Donuts" at 34th and Sixth in the BMT part of the station. They were 25 cents, had sugar on 'em and were GUARANTEED to stuff your arteries in one serving. But Boy were they GOOD! Extra Credit if you washed 'em down with Orange BANG!
15) Sly and Billy Dee chasing the terrorist on the R-1/9s in "Night Hawks"...Wulfgar!
"Life is no less beautiful when it is accompanied by disease, infirmity...or old age"--Terrence Cardinal Cooke, who knew and loved NYC (and its subways)
2. You remember the FANS turning on the R1-9's!!!
3. You recall an empty KK came through the station when you were waiting eternally for an F.
4. You talk about the old days on the N and a 16 year old asks "The N used to run on the bridge??"
5. You accidentally ask the bus driver for an "Add-A-Ride".
6. You run for the "IRT".
Tony
#3 West End Jeff
Of course, pretty soon you'll be old when "you can remember when the last time it was that the Manhattan Bridge was open on both sides."
"6) You still cry that the LIRR Rockaway ROW should be where the Airtrain runs...PS I saw a story about this in Thursday's Daily News, hint hint. "
They're still talking about it? BTW The defunct Rockaway Branch and AirTrain never shared a ROW.
Even today, only special units carry MP5's. The day that regular cops start carrying MP5's is the day that I invest in my own peice.
Actually with the removal of jurisdictional borders in rapid transit/rail facilities, ALL area cops can be thought of as "transit police"...
Like, you know you're into subways too much when...
-You know the name of even single subway station in the city.
-Subways are usually in your dreams.
-someone talks about cars, you think they're talking about trains.
I know you's here can think of better ones.
I'm sorry, I don't get it. Isn't everyone like that? :-)
Tom
Tony Leong
And of course the Archer Ave. extension was still about 17-18 years away, so you had to walk a few blocks from the E/F Sutphin Blvd. station to the QJ, which is where we had boarded.
Or when you see ceiling fans for sale in Home Depot and say - "they look just like the one's in the subway..."
We had Rhubarb and Custard one year for the benches along the promenade at Redcar…
Hey, I need some way into this thread.
I have observed photos from other photographers in the same NJT section and elsewhere and their photos are much better in quality than mine.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How old are these equipment?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110a.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110b.html
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
Downtown trains run on the 2 from 149 to Chambers Sts
Weekend, 4:30 AM to 11:15 PM Sat, 7 AM to 11:15 PM Sun,
Apr 5 - 6 and 12 - 13
R-142 (5) train entering South Ferry
Leaving South Ferry, all without stopping
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
1. Using very little used switches at South Ferry.
2. Seeing the confusion of the people on board the train. 25 people actually had massive strokes on my train and needed to be taken away from trying to figure out what was going on.
I reinterate from a previous post. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE? ARE THEY FRIGGIN' RETARDED!!!!!!!!!! I remember, for about the 800,000th weekend last month, the 2/5 weren't running, so you had to take a shuttle bus. Even after weeks of this, there was still some 2nd grade educated retard giving the shuttle bus driver a hard time for not informing people about this. LEARN TO READ, JACKASS!!!!!
One more good one.
Conductor: "Due to track work, all, I repeat, all, one more time, all, oh what the hell, ALL uptown 2 and 5 trains are running express from Freeman to 180th. Every one. No exceptions."
People get off the train and wait for another one. I shoot up with heroine. :)
They were until 2001, but little attempt was made at ensuring that they stayed posted.
I wonder why the R-142's don't have a designated "display case" for service advisories, where they could be safely locked behind glass. (The windows at car ends don't count.)
The R-143 electronic displays should be used for this sort of useful information instead of for MetroCard ads.
They do however seem to be very successful at keeping posters on the 6 trains advising that you can't transfer to the eastbound E/V between 7:30 and 9:30. I guess if it's really important to them, they make the effort.
I would think they could use the ad space for that. They already put up plenty of those Sub/Bustalk messages...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.rapidtransit.net/net/silverleaf/index.htm
So does anyone have those BMT Standards?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Michael
Washington, DC
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It reads 'TKA' horizontally and '9.00' vertically.
Here were four of the R-62A trainsets running today on the 4:
S1815-11 / 1806-10N
S1846-50 / 1936 / 1989 / 1932 / 1975 / 1933N
S1911 / 2078 / 1959 / 1924 / 2075 / 2043 / 1968 / 2060 / 2007 / 1964N
S2071 / ???? / ???? / ???? / ???? / 1876-80N
So it looks like there were no mainline R-33's running today, anywhere.
Are these trainsets being transferred permanently to the 4 or are they just visiting for the weekend? We'll find out tomorrow.
R-62A SINGLE 1933 @ Saratoga Av (4)
BIG VERSION 700KB
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
2: TO FLATBUSH AV
2: LEXINGTON AV EXP
Da Beastmaster
5: TO BOWLING GREEN
5: 7 AV EXPRESS
5: VIA SOUTH FERRY REROUTE
Or something to that effect. I saw it under the #2 line listing.
Da Beastmaster
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Why couldn't the 3 terminate at Chambers? It would have had the SB express track all to itself, since there was no SB 2 and the 5 was switching to the local track. There would have been no relay, no service reduction, no backup of 5 trains. So why Times Square?
And I might add, those perplexed passengers were stuck on that stationary relaying (3) train for at least 5 minutes, and maybe as many as 8 minutes. I hope the C/R noticed them and came out and talked to them.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Monday. Snow developing during the morning. Heavy at times. Mixing with sleet late. Accumulation 5 to 10 inches. Colder and windy. Highs in the mid 30s. East winds 15 to 25 mph. Gusting to 40 mph. Chance of snow near 100 percent.
Monday night. Snow or sleet ending before midnight. Then cloudy. Total accumulation. 6 to 12 inches. Windy. Temperatures steady in the lower 30s. Northeast winds 15 to 25 mph. Gusting to 40 mph. Chance of precipitation near 100 percent.
Tuesday. Mostly cloudy. Brisk and continued cold. Highs in the upper 30s.
Gird it up, you'll live. And it'll all be blackened mush by Tuesday. Heh.
Wanna trade? :)
You're playing in the wrong town, bro ... every day is "Northern Exposure" around here, right down to our cranky ex-astronaut. :)
We didn't have a problem this year with our vans right in Uncle Joe's backyard...
In fact, the only place where we got stuck this year was Schenectady.
WEATHER MAP DISCUSSION FOR EXTREME SOUTHEASTERN NEW YORK
Northeastern New Jersey And Southern Connecticut
National Weather Service Upton NY
230 PM EDT Sun Apr 6 2003
A winter storm warning is in effect for 6 to 12 inches of snow for Monday morning through Monday night
Near blizzard conditions will occur Monday afternoon and evening
The ingredients are coming together for an impressive late season winter storm. Very strong Canadian high pressure will continue to build southeast from Ontario into the area overnight, funneling cold air into the region on a northeast flow. At the same time low pressure will develop in the Tennessee Valley, move into the Ohio Valley by Monday morning and weaken. A secondary area of low pressure will form off the Virginia coast and take over, deepen and move northeast. It will pass south of Long Island Monday night. this system will have very good dynamic lift, plenty of moisture, and an extensive Reservoir of low and mid level cold air, to create significant wintry precipitation for the area.
Clouds will increase, lower and thicken towards morning. Snow is expected to overspread the area during the morning from west to east, with the snow quickly becoming heavy by early afternoon. along the coast, warm air may work in aloft causing the snow to mix with or change to sleet late in the day, holding down accumulations slightly. The precipitation should taper off around midnight, but not before leaving from 6 to 12 inches on the ground, with slightly lower amounts along the Atlantic ocean shores.
In addition to the heavy snow and sleet, winds will pick up from the northeast during the afternoon as the pressure gradient between the deepening low pressure and very strong high pressure tightens. travel will become hazardous Monday with reduced visibilities in near blizzard conditions, so adjust your travel plans accordingly.
Things will quiet down for Tuesday, but remain cloudy and cold. another coastal storm may skirt just to our south on Wednesday, bringing a bout of light snow or rain overnight Tuesday.
lol
Its obviously her nature's wrath did major d to all of us on daily basis. Remember one her stubborn daughter (Hurricane LILI), that paralyzed the south last summer. I'm surprised she didn't wiped out the entire city of New Orlean before made it to the shore.
#3 West End Jeff
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68, and R68A.
The same credit should also be given to the R10 and R16 cars. While R10 produced the R12 and R14, R16 has, or had, the majority of our subway fleet influence:
R17, R21, R22, R26, R27, R28, R29, R30, R30A, R32, R32A, R33, R33S, R36, R36WF, and R38.
I can't give much influence on the R11 or R15. Only exception is R15 introduced indoor conductor controls and the current rooftop style.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Jimmy
Yes! As a matter of fact, when I was younger, I had (or still have) two pins. One pin was of an R-44 or R-46 and the other was of an M-1. I used to think they were the same thing.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Even more so on the R44 and R46, whose appearance was utterly ruined by the GOH. Only the rotting redbirds are uglier than a post-GOH R44.
---Andrew
Wowzers, strong words. Can you back that up with photos? Let's see a comparison, or at least make a list of your points.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
*Nothing but dull greyish silver, with nothing to break it up except the ridges. (at least the R68 has a shinier surface)
*UGLY (not to mention not very useful) puke-yellow, low-contrast LCD displays instead of rollsigns.
*blind-ends have no rollsigns or anything but the door and painted steel--true of all pre-R62 cars...except that on the R44 and R46 these are all but every fourth car (with the rare exception of the R46 6-car trainsets.) So most of the train is just the sides and ugly blind ends.
*On the R44 only--the bellies are rotting right through! (The roofs rotting through ain't helping the appearance of its 60-foot cousins either)
*That fake wood never did anything for the interior.
All in all, just grey, featureless things.
As for the redbirds, what can I say that hasn't been said a thousand times? On the R38-R42, the roofs are rotting. On the R44 the bellies are rotting. On the redbirds...the entire things are rotting away!
:-) Andrew
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
:-) Andrew
#3 West End Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Incidentally, QB Plaza remains the only place in New York where a cross platform transfer exits between and IRT route and a BMT/IND route.
Or is it the remnant of the tail tracks where the BMT trains arriving at the upper level of QBP were turned to the lower level to return to Manhattan?
Tom
4LC is the level number and it indicates that the signal was placed at the wide end of an asymetric interlocking. US&S signals were generally controled in pairs (4L would have a 4R signal controled by lever 4). However, if you had like 3 tracks converging into one, the signals would be 4R one one side and then 4LA, 4LB and 4LC on the other.
AK signs were first introduced on the IRT and BMT to indicate
signals that had been modified from the original "key-by" design
where the motorman had to operate a physical key or switch to
drive down the arm to the IND-style where the key-by was
"automatic" in that all the motorman had to do was cross the IJ
into the next block (slowly) and watch the arm go down.
As time went by most of the signals were thus changed, so a
circle-K plate was used to indicate signals that had the
original key-by semantics. Nowadays, since you are not allowed
to key by a signal unless you have permission of control center
witnessed and notarized the A in AK stands for "Authorized"
and that plate denotes a signal where explicit permission is
not needed. Mostly these signals are found on the BMT to control
yard moves or reverse moves.
I'd be hard pressed to think of a place on the old IRT where they were "typical," where's the plant you're citing?
The BMT and IRT as private companies were trying to REDUCE the number of controlled signals if possible. There were even cases of mainline signals without overlap!
The a, b, c, scheme, although more typical to US&S, is not specific to them, W4th has 44a & 44b on two converging tracks. And Concourse X68 clears signals 68A through 68L on a Model 5E.
Both GRS and USS plants have A, B, C signals, but I think USS
tended to do this with signals on different tracks, e.g. trailing
point junctions, and use a SS circuit to pick the signal to clear
based on switch correspondence, whereas GRS tended to assign
separate levers to each signal and rely on mechanical locking.
44A/B balls at W4 would be counter-example, I guess. Where is
that?
Agreed.
The US&S scheme is efficient when there is only one way to get from track to track in a plant. GRS becomes the better answer when you add parallel moves into the equation.
44A/B balls at W4 would be counter-example, I guess. Where is
that?
44A/B allow converging moves into the lower level local station track. Musta run outa lever spaces...
Yogi "deja vu all over again" Berra
KILL THE Q49. LEAVE THE J TO 168 & JAMAICA AVE.
Jimmy
;)
"Bill "Newkirk"
Jimmy
Did you notice that the "4" on the front rollsign looks slightly different on the R-62A's than on the R-62's? I noticed it the moment the train pulled in and I used it to reliably tell R-62A's from R-62's the rest of the day.
Only 1 R-62A consist and R-62's. Nothing else.
"Did you notice that the "4" on the front rollsign looks slightly different on the R-62A's than on the R-62's? I noticed it the moment the train pulled in and I used it to reliably tell R-62A's from R-62's the rest of the day."
The #4 bullet looks a lot cleaner than the ones on the R-62's. Then of course that sign was exposed since 1984 and accumulating dirt etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
The 4 sign is a bit cleaner but it's also in a different font. IINM, the horizontal protrusion sticks out a bit more on the R-62A. I like.
Whoa !! Four sets ?
Looks like this long overdue change is finally taking place.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now, I'd love to find out why the 4 wasn't running any of its own R-33's, R-142's, or R-142A's.
wayne
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
Where are the experts?
-Stef
-Stef
Of the four trains I spotted, one had a railfan window at the south end, one had a railfan window at the north end, and one had both. But railfan windows aren't extinct yet on the 4, thanks to the lingering Redbirds.
And even without the GO at Utica, ask yourself which makes more sense? Sending T/O's all the way to Utica for a put-in, just to bring the train back to New Lots for service, or simply burrowing a 3 train from New Lots Yard and putting it in service from there.
And I'm still waiting to learn why there were no R-33's, R-142's, or R-142A's running on the 4 on Sunday.
Redbirds rarely go down the road on weekends on the 4. 142's usually do, but I don't know why they sat in Mosholu Yard this weekend.
I did get one back in October, on the 5:
I'm sure what you meant to say above was:
But now with no redbirds on the 4 on weekends, even when the 4 gets routed to New Lots (usually because of G.O.s on the weekends) - no redbirds.
I forgive you.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
2) Speaking of Livonia, are there any Redbirds floating around in Livonia/Linden yard?
3) Now speaking of Linden, where does that connection from the (L) go anyway? I've never seen where it goes.
2) It's possible that a 4 train of R-33's occasionally lays up there. Certainly no Redbirds call it home.
False alarm ? I thought the siege was starting to take place.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
-Stef
Does anyone have braille subway maps? I guess you are really a hardcore collector if you have a subway map in braille.
How long were they out?
The following questions arise:
1. What would have been the harm in announcing the "express-via-local" G.O. with all the others? What was so special about this one that it had to be kept secret?
2. What work was being done? On the southbound express track between Continental and Roosevelt, there was exactly NO activity.
- - - - -
For those who plan to call me out, this post doesn't really qualify as "adverse criticism" of my employer. I'm reporting what I saw as a memeber of the riding public, and I'm expressing curiosity as to the full nature of what was happening.
They're certainly not as critical as local-via-express GO's or full reroutes, since there's little risk of missing one's stop on an express-via-local GO. IMO, they should still be posted, so people know to allocate a bit more time or to consider alternate routes.
To some extent, it's like the private bus companies in New York City. Employees of Green Bus Lines and Triboro Coach work for private companies though they receive funds from the city (I guess) to operate routes.
Michael
Washington, DC
The NYCDOT contract carriers get all of their expenses covered (including executive salaries, wages, campaign contributions, liability settlements, and "penalties" for poor service) PLUS a "management fee" (i.e. guaranteed profit) regardless of actual performance. The employees get only their paychecks.
On the other hand, Amtrak's only profit is in the Northeast Corridor and the commuter rail contracts. For all else, federal funding is needed just to cover costs. Meanwhile, employees make out big if a line is discontinued: TWO YEARS' severance pay!! (That's why Amtrak has so many 2-or-3-times-a-week routes; it's actually cheaper to keep a skeletal service level than to kill a route completely.)
Somehow, that doesn't seem right.
One of the things about a national company is that when the company wants to move your job, you go. Why would this not apply to Amtrak?
Welcome to the real world. Unless you are a key employee, you are terminated and someone else is hired at the new location (at a lower wage).
Tom
Also at Universal Studios, we have Back To The Future, The Ride. I would like to try out as a ride the following:
1) Pelham 1 2 3, The Ride or
2) French Connection- The Car/El Chase Ride.
What do you guys think?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
Of course, since it was one of the best rides there (not because of the Tram!), they closed it.
--Mark
I think it's closed now, but at Universal Studios they used to have the King Kong ride in which you entered into the ride through the old 7th Ave entrance to Penn Station. Once inside it was set up as a subway station, complete with black metal subway signs, and when the ride was made, NY still had the graffiti stigma, so of course that was everywhere, and almost every tourist through there added to the graffiti. It also had graffited pre-redbirds during the course of the ride. The ride was staged on the Roosevelt Island tram, and you exited the ride at what looked like you average elevated station platform.
You would have to be a real salesman to interest people in paying money to ride an imitation subway at Coney Island.
Tom
I'm planning of getting some Redbirds soon.
A great way to own a Redbird...if you don't have room in your backyard.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Rather odd story here.
Mayor Daley (son)
The Whole World is (still) Watching!
I used to like to try to land the 737 at Meigs Field,too. But Flight Simulator just ain't the same anymore over NYC.
I've been at this longer than Billy.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
That new Dailey sounds like real asshole. I'll bet if the mob used Meigs he wouldn't have shut it down. He's just bitchy about his O'Hare expansion getting sunk. Bet he's just trying to manufacture a capacity crisis by eliminating alternatives.
--Mark
Probably not, as the airstrip is of much more recent vintage.
Look
"FS 01: Cleared to land Meigs Runway 18. Winds reported niner 1 at 8 knots. Please be advised there is artillery shelling the runway. Use extreme caution when landing. No fire trucks are available to respond."
:0)
6 months of winter
one month of spring
three months of heat
two months of fall.
In spite of this, EIGHT MILLION PEOPLE live here.
Must be the weather. ;-)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Weather patterns are highly variable -- from month to month, year to year, and decade to decade. No single event means ANYTHING.
Did you know it snowed on May 10, 1977?
Soon enough it will be hotter than the blazes in the subway, and we can all complain about that.
I'm smiling as I post this...so looking forward to a lovely, hot summer. : - )
--Mark
And from there, I will be utilizing floating transportation :)
--Mark
Does anyone know where I can find a pic, and what station it is?
Thanks :)
Another in Downtown Brooklyn by Mays? Or was it the Dekalb entrance?
Why don't you look back at the posts that you start?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
What type of work is being performed there that cannot or is not being done at Jamaica or East New York?
anything that dosnt make this a great era of accomplishment?
They aughta build the 2nd Av subway, they aughta buy new equipment,
etc, etc, etc.
Here is the official scope as forwarded to this poster by the
"March of Dimes" Project manager Bill Wall as to ticket purchases.
Tickets are: $35.00 for Adults; $20.00 for Children.
Include a Stamped Self Adressed Envelope [#10] please.
Available from:
NYCT Subdivision C - MOD Trip
1311 Waters Place, Rm 221
The Bronx, NY 10461
Note: BERA Members, Bill Wall will have tickets available at Members Day.
Bill Wall says:
>>>"For trip information, they can contact me at 347-643-5310. Of course I will be tied up the next few weeks on moving museums cars around to get them for this trip, so they may or may not catch me. They can leave a messaage and I will get back to them at some point."<<<
8-) ~ Sparky
There was also a concern about swapping equipment on the second weekend, I will post Mr. Wall's response on seperate response to the poster, who first asked if it could be done.
OOPS, Check are payable to "March of Dimes".
Sorry about that.
8-)~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Sparkster,
Since there will be two trips for the IND and IRT equipment becuase of short consists, any possiblity that all trips could be sold out before Member's Day ? Does Branford have their own tickets to be sold to members to ensure participation ? I don't want to chance not sending away for tickets if the all four trips could be sold out by Members Day (which I will attend).
Bill "Newkirk"
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Rather then advertise, what may or may not happen on a given trip,
they reserve the option to alter the itinerary as needed. For those
that have ventured on "March of Dimes" excursions in the past few years,
we're sure you weren't disappointed at the conclusion.
Also consider that Mannie B is only open on South Side, Stillwell
is mostly closed. Rockaways anybody on the B division arnines???
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
--Mark
8-) ~ Sparky
I would love to see those R-1/9s go for a sprint up CPW.
IIRC, it would have been 3 cars on the "AA" or "GG" in non rush hours
ala 1967. The "AA" became six car "BB" for rush hour and the "GG"
doubled its length to six cars. Of course in snowy weather, both
off peak lines became eight cars 24/7. >GG<
CPW or QB between the Plaza and Roosevelt are race tracks. Or the
"GG" under Newtown Creek from Brooklyn to Queens accelarates like all forty.
8-) ~ Sparky
>>>Sparky:
I may be swapping the last two trips, with the SMEEs on Sunday and the R1/9s on Saturday for the 28th and 29th. Also, true to form, the flyer has the right dates on top in the text, but has June 27 and 28 on the coupon. Thus the opportunity to change dates.
If you want to put it on subtalk that we will swap the last two trips around to accomodate religious concerns, feel free.<<<
>>>"For trip information, they can contact me at 347-643-5310. Of course I will be tied up the next few weeks on moving museums cars around to get them for this trip, so they may or may not catch me. They can leave a message and I will get back to them at some point."<<<
For those that have received the flyer or read the internal communication in-house, this is the latest news I have received.
But my association with Mr. Wall for almost 2 decades, he is "Full
of Surprises". He just doesn't have the time to fend all the rhetoric
that may generate here on SubTalk, so I'm his intermediary.
8-) ~ Sparky
Larry, RedbirdR33
During the 1970's when they started to terminate the #5 at Bowling Green middays this called for some adroit scheduling because you had to fit the shuttle in between regular #5 runs going around the inner loop.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.04.06/r-62a_01.wav (100k)
I actually forget if it was an R-62 or R-62A. I'll have to ask David.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Reef it!
I'd think it would make more sense to scrap it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
But one sound I will miss is when the redbird doors open up. That was a cool sound. R62 and R62A used to have a different sound when doors were opening. So did the R68 and R68A. Heck, the entire B Division sounds different. Only the R44 stood the same. How did they change the doors from making their authentic sounds when opening?
That sound, at times was unbelievably loud and in my mind a sound which was synonomous with a ride on the IRT. I took the IRT mostly in tunnels, so it was not as bad if I would have taken the train outside.
That is a memory (sound) which I am glad is not around anymore.
ROTFL! And here I thought I was the only one who thought that!
D.
if i will hopefully before the end of this year build a set in Ho will you be interested ? or anyone else ?
ps my modeling skill is way above Average !
i aint a crafsman but im good !
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
brian have changed your handle on me ?
Vlad
The project was dropped due to miscommunication between Corgi and those with technical knowledge needed to produce the models (they would have been non-powered signal units.
--Mark
--Mark
Does anyone else make or plan to make anything like this in this proce range. $150 for a 4-car unit rtr is quite a bargain compared with the price of mainstream stuff in the UK.
I don't think $150 for a four-car set -- WITH a powered unit, is all that bad. Consider that you can buy three excellent cars (R17, R21/22, R26/28/29 types) from Images Replicas for about the same price, and NO powered unit!!
On the Corgi R-9 question--is it possible Corgi and the TA had some sort of general problem? Some people have suggested that the reason the Brooklyn PCC doesn't have logos on it was that the TA refused to allow their use. (If that's true, I don't know what right the TA would have to say anything about the logo of a City department that existed before the TA was even forced on the City.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
WHY?
Because at the very same time Corgi released a GM 5309/5310 model in two-tone blue NYCTA colors, and it came with MTA logos all around it.
When they first introduced them, they were making anywhere from 6,000 to 8,000 of each individual issue selling for $50.00 upwards (believe it or not!!) And about 4,000 to 6,000 or each issue were NOT being sold, winding up in liquidation outlets such as Tuesday Morning stores and KB Toy Outlet stores at prices from $11.95 to $19.95!!! That was 3-4 years ago. (I was fortunate, bought up LOADS of them at those prices, custom painted a lot of them, and auctioned them off at eBay for some handsome profits.)
Sine then, Corgi has been making only 1,500 to 1,800 per issue (and the prices were in the $35-40 range, but lately they arein the high $40's), and they STILL can't sell them all -- so they don't produce that many new ones owing to lack of demand.
All too many bus fans say they should make this livery, that livery, or the other livery....trouble is, they talk, but do NOT buy.
I have a feeling the same thing would happen with a subway car if they were to produce them....lots of people would say, "Oh yeah, they're nice, I want one!" but when it came time to fork over the hard-earned sheckels....the story changes.
Corgi was supposed to make a London Underground subway train a couple years ago -- again, a static display model, unpowered -- but that seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth.
Yes, Corgi does have a "communication" problem....and it has stopped some projects. But I think the REALLY BIG reason projects get stopped isn't so much communication, but economics -- people just cannot afford the prices, or just don't want to spend the $$ even if they do have them.
http://www.showbus.com/efe/1938tube.htm
They are selling very well too apparently. 1959 stock due soon.
Unfortunately, us Brits are still in the dark ages, and model at 4mm to 1 foot (OO scale). Track gauge is HO though, so it would be possible for surprise visitors to appear on subway/underground layouts.
Thank you for the clarification!!!!!
Is this one of these "At Hoboken, there are still 1908 cast-iron kiosk entrances, truly amazing they were never torn out!"?
More photos are available here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/PATH
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Maybe it's you who should refrain from posting idiotic posts like this one.
It is the emergency ventilation plant, use to remove smoke from the system in the event of a fire. It does an excellent job. PATH has had safety innovations (tunnel lighting, emergency ventilation, and fire standpipes) for many years that NJ Transit/Amtrak are just getting around to in their Hudson tunnels.
Anyway I am still pissed off at The Map brand map for depicting nothing but EMPTY WATER west of Manhattan with the Path Lines trailing off the left side of the map. WE EXIST DAMIT! WE'RE A STATE! WE HAVE THE HIGHEST MEDIAM INCOME IN THE NATION AND WE DESERVE SOME REGOCNITION.
Or maybe New Jersey can be recognized as the smelliest place on earth. It used to be, anyway -- all those chemical plants in the Secaucus area. Would make your eyes water and nose plug when you came out of the Lincoln Tunnel.
"Why did NJ get all the toxic waste dumps and California all the lawyers?"
Because NJ got first pick.
:0)
That landfill is giving the state a lot in fees and taxes.
Do your homework before posting out of ignorance. The last golf course you played on might have been built on top of a landfill.
Ski hills are not unknown, but golf courses exist too. Check out Los Angeles for those, for example.
Peace,
ANDEE
There's one in western Suffolk county, just past the Nassau line, that also appears to be built on a dump site (I refuse to use the p.c. term "landfill.") You can see it very clearly from LIRR trains between Farmingville and Wyandanch, on the south side of the tracks. Can't think of the name right now.
LaGuardia Airport's runways were also built on a former dump.
Tom
www.forgotten-ny.com
PATH is awash in a sea of red ink. PATH has been a losing proposition since the day the the PA took it over (even worse than before they took it over). As a daily rider of PATH I can tell you that nothing gets fixed until it literally falls apart. I have no idea as to what was holding the elevators at Pavonia / Newport together. They are being "refurbished" now and they are already 2 weeks behind the date they kept announcing (March 20). The side platform was supposed to be open back in December 2002 (and that was way of schedule as it was). There is still no date as to when it will be put into use. The lighting program in the station entrance has been sitting in limbo for almost a year.
For a system that has only 13 (including Exchange Place and WTC) stations it is very poorly maintained. Even back in the 1970's with the fiscal problems the NYC Subway was in better shape.
There has been some musings about connecting PATH to the NYC Subway one of these days. I hope it never comes to pass. It would be a disaster.
The equipment and stations are kept clean but the surrounding infrastructure slowly crumbling.
Check this out.
or point to: http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php
I'm not as knowledgeable about New York's subway as most subtalkers are, so I have a few questions. Does anyone know which yard is pictured? Also, does anyone know what kind of cars are in the photos? I just know the numbers are all in the high 6000s, so I'm guessing they're R17s...?
Mark
Mark
: )
Mark
Mark
R32 - Sea Beach Express
The new pick takes effect Sunday, April 27, just after midnight.
I dont think the B,Q, and V are in the same section. The B and Q are in the same section, I believe but not the V. Someone in the B division could clarify that.
*=OPTO
Da Beastmaster
The picks are fixed, whoever has better senority gets them. Pretty much the senority on the Brighton line is above average than most "B" division lines, so some plum picks on the Brighton line AM and PM shifts are already taken. The current D line in the Bronx has among the highest senority, I see the same C/R's day in, day out on that line operating out of Bedford Park.
Generally, only extras have the opportunity to work up to 5 different lines in the same week, it is rare to work more than 3 lines in a single standard pick.
Peace,
ANDEE
The disability bit at the end, though, sounds a bit fishy to me. But this is Ray Sanchez. Whether or not the operator actually said what he said about the TA, I wouldn't put it past Sanchez to put words in somebody's mouth for the story. Sanchez does like to bash the TA regularly, whether it needs it or not...
The lunacy of this announcement aside, its not actually a bad idea. I'm sure people riding the 7 would appreciate a one-seat ride to downtown Manhattan instead of having to change at Times Square, and it would reduce crowding on the 1/9 below Times Square. All you would need is a 2-track tunnel connecting the end of the station with the downtown tracks of the west side IRT. Maybe the 7 could use the inner platform at SF.
They had one until 1942.
> NIMFY's (not in my FRONT yard) on 2nd Avenue would ensure it would
> never go up.
More like NIFOM2FW (not in front of my 2nd floor window). But who could pronounce *that*? Unless you took off the W, but that sounds like something you'd tell your dentist while he's got your mouth stuffed with plumbing.
Just a thought.
Funny, when I think of a monorail, I think of the 1960's.
They'd be better off running the 7 over to the west side yards/Javits Center and then as an el over 12th Ave. and West Street down to Battery Park City. Not quite South Ferry, but in the neighborhood.
A second problem is that the Flushing tracks run quite a bit west of 7th Avenue.
And a third problem, perhaps the most serious, is that peak loading on the 1/9 is north of Times Square. Running some 7 trains south along the 1/9 would force a service reduction north of Times Square. Running all 7 trains south along the 1/9 would force a complete service elimination north of Times Square!
Instead, I think they should just extend the 7 west to 10th Av, then south to serve the West Side.
If you wanna get really ambitious, connect it to the L, nail a few boards along the edge of every L platform to cover the gap, and run the 7 between Flushing and Canarsie.
:-D Andrew
:-) Andrew
Mark
The #6 probably could be sent to South Ferry at some non-peak times, but I think it would confuse customers. They'd see the green 6 on the station entrance at SF, and enter the station expecting to find #6 trains there. Yet, at peak hours--precisely the time when such a stop would be the most useful--the #6 trains would not be there.
See NY Times This Day in History" for other, less historical, events :)
--Mark
8-) ~ Sparky
Chaohwa
Peace,
ANDEE
many nooks & crannies in the basement to get lost in.
It doesn't even compare to this armory at Kingsbridge, but I was in the one on Lexington Ave and 26th Street(?) for a concert once. It was also a cool old building. It was a great spot for a concert, sort of spooky, and it was like the hottest day of the summer, and everyone was drenched at the end of the concert. When we got out, the whole perimiter of the building was surrounded by beer bottles.
Large version of photo:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p26193bb962d7f550d23a4c7a972e8713/fc79d647.jpg.orig.jpg
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where sand cars are concerned, Chicago had some really wild ones. Check this out:
http://donross.railspot.com/dr0701/cslr202.jpg
-Frank Hicks
Steve Loitsch
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve
Mark
FUN HOUSE: Brighton Line
HOUSE OF HORRORS: Sea-Beach Line
One attraction is already set to go, no change needed for this. Chambers Street is your "House of Horrors", Haunted Mansion, Roller Coaster, and Water Ride (with the leaks) all in one!
Harry Beck Photos
One attraction is already set to go, no change needed for this. Chambers Street is your "House of Horrors", Haunted Mansion, Roller Coaster, and Water Ride (with the leaks) all in one!
Harry Beck Photos
A combined fare Trolley\Bus to Subway or Subway to Trolley\Bus was
12 cents. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I've mentioned July 21, 1965 so many times it's a giveaway question.
Another key ADA station finally getting done...
Let's see, my guess would be the following. Let's start from the bottom. One elevator from subway (L) platform to first mezzanine. Second elevator to intermediate mezzanine (between "el" and first mezzanine). Third elevator from intermediate mezzanine to "el" (M) platform. The "el" platform elevator would be situated in unused center track area. The contract solicitation states removal of some "el" structure. Look for that area to be concreted over as part of the project. Since the "el" platform is directly above street, an intermediate mezzanine would have to be built.
Well, that's my take on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
You can not go right from the booth to the el. As it says in GP's post, the el is not over anything but the street. There are two booths actually, one at street level, and one in the L mezzanine. You need one elevator from the L platform to the mezzanine. Then another from the mezzanine to street level, but that one can also go up one more level to the M mezzanine level (top of escalators). Then after that, you need a seperate one from the M mezzanine to the M platform. Like mentioned in Chris' post, there is no structure to support an elevator between the M platforms, It is completely over the street. Can an elevator just hang freely off of the elevated structure? They may have to put it on one side, let's say the Manhattan bound platorm, and then finally fill in the center express track.
---Joe
-- Ed Sachs
Nice new pics ...
Middle pic: Ave. X, showing a train coming from Neptune Ave.
Bottom pic: ????
--Mark
There's no other structure that looks like it, and that's definitely the Brighton embankment.
-- Ed Sachs
--Mark
Anyway, I think Chris is right, it has to be somewhere on the Brighton Line. The only other place it could be and is very possible is between Fresh Pond Rd and Metro Ave, which also looks like that a bit
Center: You really got me there???
Bottom: Midwood Field on Brighton Line near E. R. Murrow HS
That is the Culver yard lead to Avenue X/Coney Island Yard
Brighton Line, immediately south of Sheepshead Bay Road station.
Culver Line at Ave X. Lead into CIYD at right. A hunch, that building in the background with the smokestack is Brighton Laundry. The picture predates Warbasse and Trump Village.
Brighton Line facing Wingate Field (between Avenues K & L). View from apartment house at Ave K facing south. The picture predates Edward R. Murrow HS.
--Mark
And BTW, it's Sheepshead Bay station NOT Sheepshead Bay Road station. Like Brighton Beach, it's the neighborhood and not the street that intersects or runs underneath it.
Did the NYC actually have a station at 149th Street?? How did the subway passengers reach the NYC Station??
Thanks for any info..............J
If the Broadway Brooklyn K was switched to 8th Ave at West 4th (if possible) meaning:
Broadway-Lafayette to West 4th to 14/8th,
it would be blue.
If it was switched via 53rd to CPW (meaning:
BBroadway Lafayette to West 4th to 14th/6th,
it would be orange.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Believe it or not, when the "A" received the R40s, the bulk of them came from the "CC", not the Queens Blvd. line. The R40s provided the bulk of the service on the "CC" for a couple of weeks until sometime in October of '77 when the "A" swapped the R10s with the "CC" for the R40s.
The R40s were the bulk of the service from that point until early 1981 when the "A" received the other half of the R44 fleet from the "D". They took the R40s off of the "A" in 1985.
Why they did this is still a mystery to me. All I know is that I wished they had not.
When the R44s came back in 1983, the "A" retained a hand full of the R38s, (along with a couple of R10s) and sent the bulk of the R38s to the "C".
This arrangement would last until 1985 when the R38s came back to the "A", then replacing the R40s.
They should have kept the R40s and got rid of the R44s. Although I will admit, the R44s have improved since GOH.
"When the R44s came back in 1983, the "A" retained a hand full of the R38s, (along with a couple of R10s) and sent the bulk of the R38s to the "C".
This arrangement would last until 1985 when the R38s came back to the "A", then replacing the R40s."
wayne
Vlad
Vlad
thanks anyway Vlad
Second Avenue was pretty much out of mind during the 1988-1991 period.
Chuck Greene
"and PLEASE be forwarned that this board can get like the Gong Show sometimes...but it's part of the fun!"
This Guy almost Left the Board because it was getting to be to much for him..LOL And he's only been here for 2 1/2 weeks I believe.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
i was not planning to leave the board !
a bit more than that !
until Dave P will kick me off for flaming "the pig" !
Can everyone say "barbeque" !
oh wait i cant im a vegeterian ! LOL
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chuck Greene
or "pigs" in this case !
LOL
Well now you know how to rhyme my name ! LOL
Vlad
#3 West End Jeff
YUM!
Add a 1000 hp turbo diesel V-12, transmission, and your done!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
And I responded to your post, not CC LOCAL's similar one because that would be nitpicking!
Any idea when this white elephant is finally going to get started?
If you set up an HO-gauge IRR replica of airport service in your basement, would that make you feel better?
I'll be riding AirTrain probably the next time I visit New York. It will be very convenient for me.
But I think you should not ride it. It might make you too upset.
I doubt it is any more convenient than the shuttle bus to the A train for $1.50
Only if you don't care about A train passengers.
But that's the past. Screw it already. We have the future, and we need to make the best of it that we can.
Any way you slice it, it would have been much cheaper than Air Train and more convenient (a one seat ride from Penn Station).
Only on a Lionel set in your living room. In real life, it would have been more expensive, due to mitigation required, and legally/politically impossible. I'm amazed at the stuff you gloss over.
Of course, I wish it were that easy.
Would reactivating the tracks directly serve all the terminals, car parks, etc. that AirTrain will (hopefully one day) serve?. If not you are comparing apples with pears.
Rebuilding the LIRR Rockaway Line would probably cost as much as double that, because of the mitigation you'd have to do. And, of course, the cost of the airport circulator would be a part of that (LIRR trains would still need the Howard Beach leg of AirTrain to get people to the terminal. You would just be substituting the LIRR for the Van Wyck Expressway ROW- which is really a bad decision because the Van Wyck is a far superior ROW going to the airport.
I could see it rebuilt, in part as an undeground line, in places probably stacked (northbound on one level, southbound below it) to avoid encroaching on property. At grade or elevated, forget it.
And you couldn't operate it before 2010 or 2012, because ESA would have to finished first to give you enough capacity under the East River to handle the additional traffic. AirTrain to Jamaica at least gives you capability by the end of 2003.
I think that's only partially true. IMO one bad thing about AirTrain is no local stations. I've walked that route, from the Conduit up to Jamaica LIRR. There's not a real sense of individual communities in that stretch. It's almost suburban-like north of the Belt. As in many low density lawn-lined streets.
Whereas the LIRR ROW passes through a denser, older series of distinct neighborhoods. An area more in tune with traditional transit served urban areas. I just think it's a shame these neighborhoods, still roughly middle class, didn't get that chance to renew. Especially south of Jamaica Avenue.
I know, the purpose of the line is to get people to the airport. For that purpose alone you could consider following the highway the "best" routing. But if it had gone the other way, imagine some of the possible side benefits. Direct train service from Howard Beach to stations on the N.E.C.?
You're right. Since the A train offers very fast, convenient service to New Hyde Park, Merillon Avenue, Mineola, Valley Stream, Queens Village, Hollis, 71-Continental Av and Jackson Heights, it's obvious no one would ever want to do something as stupid as going to Jamaica Station to catch AirTrain.
To reward yourself for your brilliant observation about my trip to the airport (you even predicted my starting point!), I think you should be the first to set up the JFK Express in O gauge on your living room floor.
:0)
While some of the lack of ridership can be attributed to the economy and fears of war I suspect that the biggest reason is the frequency of terrorist-style attacks by my cat, Sparky.
CG
LOL!!!!!!!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
But they're too little and have too many bones to satisfy him.
Those shuttle buses are evil incarnate.
CG
CG
Pretty sure there are no sealed baggage compartments on the Newark AirTrain. My guess is that any checked bags are/were transported separately by road, at least between the airport station and terminal.
Remember, the reason for x-raying baggage is that a small bomb can kill hundreds of passengers if it explodes on an aircraft in flight. A small bomb exploding on the AirTrain might kill a few people, but would not have the same effect as one in flight. Or perhaps you would like to see x-ray screening at every subway station.
Tom
And that's when you are flying to Toronto. :-)
Tom
It is hard for me to envision anything less convenient than the shuttle bus to the A train. Well, maybe the existing mass transit connections to LGA...
Even for people (like me) who will still take the A to JFK because the LIRR option is too far out of the way, AirTrain will be a huge improvement over the awful shuttle buses that serve the JFK subway station today.
I've taken the A train to JFK airport frequently. On arriving at Howard Beach station, you have to carry your luggage up a flight of stairs, over the tracks, down a flight of stairs, and over to the bus stop.
You then get onto the bus (if it's there), where you are most unlikely to get a seat. At some times of the day, you could wait up to 20 minutes between bus departures. It can then be easily another 20 minutes until you get to your terminal. The bus travels a route with many starts and stops, where it is held up by red lights and traffic.
Whatever one may think of the AirTrain (and I agree it's not all one might have wanted), it will obviously be an improvement over the above.
JFK Airport is very spread out, with 9 terminals in separate buildings. For rail service to provide a meaningful improvement over the current situation, it needed to reach every terminal. (Otherwise, you'd have another "train to the plane" debacle, with bus service adding another 20-30 minutes to every trip.) Given the complexity of the infrastructure that is already in place, such service couldn't be at ground level; it had to be elevated or in tunnels. Elevated service is far less costly than underground service, and a "conventional" rail link wouldn't have been feasible.
Precisely. SFO is getting a (BART) transit extension to the airport, but most passengers will still need to change to their version of 'AirTrain' to get to the terminal. And SFO only has 4 terminals in a relatively compact area.
If that is a given for JFK as well, then I don't see it really matters much whether the transit to AirTrain interchange is on-airport (as it is at SFO) or off-airport (as it is at Newark and will be at JFK).
Will passengers have to pay an additional fee of 2.5 times the BART fare to ride the airport train?
BART uses long cars, IIRC. The airport train presumably requires short cars. AirTrain's cars are the exact same dimensions as the R-38's that currently serve the A train.
No. I think the SFO AirTrain is free. The last time I passed through was before it opened, but peeking at the stations they seemed barrier free and the website makes no reference to fares.
The subway already goes to Howard Beach, where a free shuttle bus runs to the airport. The shuttle bus service is far from perfect -- it could be improved a great deal at no capital expense if anyone were interested in improving it -- but it exists. When AirTrain opens, the shuttle bus will cease to exist. A $2 route to the airport will be replaced with a $7 route to the airport that's no more convenient.
It could have been more convenient -- and cheaper to build, too.
I don't understand how the fare structure JFK is proposing to charge has any bearing on the practicalities of serving a spread-out, nine terminal airport with subway trains, which is what my post was about.
The AirTrain could be free as at SFO. PANYNJ could still find a way to charge a supplementary fare on a subway extension (eg. exit barriers at the stations). The two are separate and largely unrelated issues.
The argument that, since I have to transfer somewhere to an airport circulator, it might as well be at Howard Beach or Jamaica, fails.
And what do you find impractical about serving a nine-terminal airport with subway trains? A few more stations wouldn't kill anybody, and the R-38 cars used on the A have the same dimensions as the AirTrain cars. Would a modest track connection have been so difficult? (It would probably have been cheaper than the gaudy Howard Beach station that's being built at the transfer point.)
NYCT uses manual controls while airtrain use ATO
This the same basic difference of opinion we are having on the west end express thread.
You do not take into concideration the target market for airtrain who prefer a faster more convient service vs price.
who are the majority of airport riders? (excliding airport workers)
-business traveler and upper middle class leasure travelers who would get to airtrain via the faster LIRR service. A more costly subway connection paid out of MTA funds that ran less frequently then air train does not serve these riders. These riders are on a schedule and LIRR is more predictable safer to carry expensive laptops and other luggage than the slow.
Many of these riders are now paying $35 for a cab ride or $15 for the midtown express bus.
The $5 fare is a base fare. There will probably be discounts and premotions to reduce this cost. For instance airport workers may be able to buy monthly passes, tourist passes that combine unlimited metrocard with round trip airtrain purchace. The combinations are limitless
You didn't read my post. Not all airport circulator service would leave the airport. And there's no technical reason ATO and manual controls can't mix.
This the same basic difference of opinion we are having on the west end express thread.
Indeed: you want to spend a fortune on a service that will attract very few customers.
You do not take into concideration the target market for airtrain who prefer a faster more convient service vs price.
Let's analyze these claims.
Faster? About two years ago, in a similar thread, I ran a comparison. I compared the time it would take to ride from JFK to Penn Station on an extended A train vs. on AirTrain and LIRR. I stacked the odds in AirTrain's favor by using off-peak subway schedules (20-minute headways on the A) but peak LIRR schedules (frequent service between Jamaica and Penn). IIRC, the AirTrain-LIRR route saved 10 minutes. That's 10 minutes saved to Penn Station itself. Anyone with a destination other than Penn Station would have to then transfer to the subway and perhaps transfer a second (er, third) time. The A train has more stops and more transfer points (it has direct transfer points to all lines but the 6), and with one exception (Times Square), those transfer points are easier to use than the ones at Penn. So -- AirTrain/LIRR is 10 minutes faster than direct subway service, at best, for those bound for Penn Station itself, and slower for those bound for pretty much any other destination in Manhattan.
More convenient? JFK to Penn via AirTrain/LIRR requires one transfer; JFK to Penn via extended A train requires no transfers. JFK to any other point in Manhattan via AirTrain/LIRR requires 2-3 transfers; JFK to any other point in Manhattan via extended A train requires no more than one transfer, except for local stops on the Lexington Avenue line, which require a second cross-platform transfer. Why do you say that AirTrain/LIRR is more convenient?
Of course, none of this even applies to the Howard Beach connection. Obviously, a transfer at Howard Beach both takes longer and is less convenient than direct service past Howard Beach. I have nothing against running a premium service to Jamaica for those who would find it useful, but who would direct A train service hurt?
who are the majority of airport riders? (excliding airport workers)
Airport workers don't count? What about budget travelers?
-business traveler and upper middle class leasure travelers who would get to airtrain via the faster LIRR service.
For most of them, the subway is faster. See above, or look at the schedules yourself.
A more costly subway connection paid out of MTA funds that ran less frequently then air train does not serve these riders. These riders are on a schedule and LIRR is more predictable safer to carry expensive laptops and other luggage than the slow.
How is a subway connection more expensive? The trackage at the airport proper would be no different than AirTrain's, though fewer stations would suffice, and a ramp to the unused express tracks between the Howard Beach and Aqueduct stations would undoubtedly be cheaper than the extravagant transfer point that's going up at Howard Beach.
Every train rider knows that any schedule can break, and the fewer transfers are necessary, the less likely one is to be late. If I'm on a tight schedule, I might consult the LIRR and AirTrain schedules to determine the latest time I can be at Penn Station so I'll just catch my flight. If the LIRR leaves a few minutes late, it arrives a few minutes late at Jamaica. If I miss the AirTrain I had planned to catch, that costs me 12 minutes -- which could be enough to cost me my flight. Without that intermediate connection, if my train leaves a few minutes late, it arrives only a few minutes late at the airport. The more connections I have to make, the more of a cushion I need to leave myself to allow for missed connections. Enough connections are missed at the airport itself. Who wants to add the risk of missed connections at Jamaica?
If you're claiming it's safer to carry laptops on the LIRR than on the subway, I await the police statistics you will bring to support your claim.
Many of these riders are now paying $35 for a cab ride or $15 for the midtown express bus.
And the vast majority of them will continue to pay $35 or $15. AirTrain/LIRR costs about as much as the shuttle bus, serves fewer Manhattan destinations, and entails an additional transfer. Why would anyone bother?
The $5 fare is a base fare. There will probably be discounts and premotions to reduce this cost. For instance airport workers may be able to buy monthly passes, tourist passes that combine unlimited metrocard with round trip airtrain purchace. The combinations are limitless
Irrelevant. For the average Joe, it will cost 2.5 times as much to go from Howard Beach to JFK than it costs to go from Van Cortlandt Park to Rockaway Park.
1) Jamaica Station serves passengers headed to the airport from NY and Long Island. The A train does not.
2)Jamaica Station offers passengers transfers to the E and J subway. Big markets not served by the A train (you had to erase half the subway map before you posted).
3)If you really thought you had a valid argument, why didn't you take this to MTA and your elected officials ask them about extending the A train into the airport (obviously: you didn't want to hear their reply, and you still don't).
If you don't like AirTrain, don't ride it. It'll leave another seat for me...
Reliability. Any bus service is incredibly unpredictable. Train service isn't perfectly predictable either, but at least you know that everyday events such as traffic won't hold it up.
(If you're claiming it's safer to carry laptops on the LIRR than on the subway, I await the police statistics you will bring to support your claim.)
There may not be any difference. But I suspect lots of business travelers perceive a difference. I personally would feel more comfortable carry a laptop plus suitcase or garment bag on the LIRR and AirTrain than on A train and AirTrain. I can't claim it's rational or supported by the evidence, but it's how I feel.
Especially on a new M7 or DM30 train.
Of course, by then there won't be any non-bankrupt airlines left and hence no one riding AirTrain!
But, of course, you didn't want to bother.
:0)
But at SFO, it costs significantly more than $2.00 to get from anywhere in San Francisco to the airport. The same goes for most of Silicon Valley. The fact that the fare is high to the AirTrain with the ride free, versus very low to the AirTrain with an expensive ride, only affects the costs for people living or working in and around Millbrae or Howard Beach, not costs for people from the city going to the airport.
A
Personally, I find the notion of a flat fare economically unappealing, but it's what we have in NYC.
It costs one flat fare to get from pretty much anywhere in the city to Howard Beach. It will cost another flat fare, 2.5 times as high as the first, to get from Howard Beach to JFK.
So much for unified fare system, let alone a unified transit system. We're turning into New Jersey, with lots of little transit networks and no attempt at unifying the fares. (I once went via transit from NYC to Liberty State Park: subway to PATH to HBLR to bus, each with its own fare. Next time I'll drive.)
BTW, does the HBLR station not serve the park itself? What was the bus doing for you?
Before HBLR, there wasn't a direct bus from a PATH station to the park? I don't know that there was one but I'd be surprised if there wasn't. Although HBLR is a nice ride for a railfan, it would have been easier, and probably cheaper, to take a bus the whole way.
Good.
" (I suppose I did get my dollar's worth. I was somewhat amused to see a parking lot gate crash down on the front of the bus, although the driver didn't seem very pleased. I'm not sure why he didn't stop. No damage to the bus, but IIRC the gate was history.)"
Gate shouldn't have been there in the first place! That'll teach 'em...
"Although HBLR is a nice ride for a railfan, it would have been easier, and probably cheaper, to take a bus the whole way."
Maybe. But once you have rail in place, it's cheaper for NJ Transit to feed into rail, rather than duplicate routes (andbuses are more expensive to operate). That makes the whole system more affordable for everyone.
The needs of the many and the needs of most of the disabled outweigh the quirky preferences of David Greenberger...:0)
Airtrain is a differnt animal targeting a differnt population. The $5 fare also covers the people riding for free inside the airport and is priced to be compettitive with other means of getting to the airport
from manhattan
IE
Yellow cabs $35
Car service from brooklyn $20
Airpot ecpress bus $15
LIRR + airtrain = less then express bus and other ways of getting there
The average busiess traveler or lesure traveler is not interested in a long slow subway ride to the airport. Try moving out of manhattan and learning a thing or two about 1 hour subway rides.
Although the AirTrain will charge nothing to go to a parking lot, I am sure the parking lot itself is not free. Another way to look at it is that charging to go to the airport parking lots would be a double charge to those parking there. The public is given a choice of driving and paying a large parking fee, or traveling by public transportation and being charged a relatively small fee to travel from one of two locations convenient to public rail transportation to the terminals.
You keep trying to make the AirTrain something that it is not, part of the regional rail network. It is an appendage of the airport itself, and the fact that it runs on rails and is powered by electricity is coincidental. It gives greater value than the present free shuttle bus from Howard Beach, and users will pay for the improvement.
Tom
Nice theory, but it doesn't quite fly (excuse the pun).
Parking rates are based on time. There's no flat fee tacked on for access to the terminals.
Also, parking rates are per vehicle, not per person. A car carrying five people pays exactly as much to park as a car carrying one person, even though five people take up five times as much space as one person on the train. Is the parking rate for one day less than $50? (I assume it is but I haven't looked it up.) Then it costs less for five people to park a car and ride to the terminal than to not park a car and ride to the terminal from the other side of the fence at Howard Beach.
You keep trying to make the AirTrain something that it is not, part of the regional rail network. It is an appendage of the airport itself, and the fact that it runs on rails and is powered by electricity is coincidental.
Fine, it's an airport circulator. Are you aware of any (non-PANYNJ) airport circulators that charge a fare?
It gives greater value than the present free shuttle bus from Howard Beach, and users will pay for the improvement.
Whether it gives greater value is a decision to be made by its potential users.
Many will feel that it does give greater value, but that its value is still not 2.5 times that of the subway system.
And many will feel that major improvements could have been made to the free shuttle bus service with little or no capital construction.
Some might even find the shuttle bus more convenient, if slower. The shuttle bus stops closer to the terminals than the train will, and access from the bus to the NB subway (though not from the SB subway to the bus) is easier than AirTrain - subway access will be. With luggage, many value convenience over time.
That is your opinion, but you do not have any data to back it up.
"And many will feel that major improvements could have been made to the free shuttle bus service with little or no capital construction."
Again, theory without supporting data.
"The shuttle bus stops closer to the terminals than the train will, and access from the bus to the NB subway (though not from the SB subway to the bus) is easier than AirTrain - subway access will be."
False statement. The PA did do its homework on this one (and you did not). Travellers with heavy bags find using elevators far more convenient than stepping off a bus. In addition, the Jamaica leg of AirTrain is the more important one, and serves markets the A train does not.
Plus, disabled riders (and you cannot even begin to compare your situation with those of wheelchair bound passengers) are not as well served by a bus as they are by ADA compliant rail (which, again, you don't seem to comprehend).
You would like the subway physically configured the way you want it, which is not what most people want (and you have nothing to show the opposite).
But a huge recuring operational costs that would not attract riders to use it
Have you ever tried using Covent Garden Station with heavy luggage? If you had, you would realise that it is MUCH easier to manoeuvre heavy luggage on or off a bus than using an elevator.
In addition, the Jamaica leg of AirTrain is the more important one, and serves markets the A train does not.
You are right, but it may make the E train even more crowded (which is of course no argument against AirTrain - rather it's an argument for an extra 2 tracks from Continental to Queens Plaza and shifting the switches nearer Jamaica Center).
Plus, disabled riders (and you cannot even begin to compare your situation with those of wheelchair bound passengers) are not as well served by a bus as they are by ADA compliant rail
With low floor "easy-access" buses, this simply is not true. If anything, it is easier for disabled riders to use a bus due to there being only one entrance with an employee at it to give you a hand if you need it and there are no elevators to malfunction. (And you know how É'm no great fan of buses.)
You would like the subway physically configured the way you want it
Who doesn't?
which is not what most people want (and you have nothing to show the opposite).
Invalid argument. You have in effect stated "Because something can not be or is not proven, its antithesis is assumed regardless of the laws of probability or logic." Perhaps it is better to say that what David wants is not what most people with influence (ie those who run PANYNJ) want.
At Covent Garden, maybe. Not here.
"With low floor "easy-access" buses, this simply is not true. If anything, it is easier for disabled riders to use a bus due to there being only one entrance with an employee at it to give you a hand if you need it and there are no elevators to malfunction. (And you know how É'm no great fan of buses.)"
Low floor buses are great (for buses) but they are not the standard here in the US. There are still relatively few of them (most buses utilize lifts); and their low passenger capacity compared to other buses limits their application. They have a place, to be sure. In any event you may think they are superior to a rail connection, but most disabled riders here do not think so.
"You have in effect stated "Because something can not be or is not proven, its antithesis is assumed regardless of the laws of probability or logic." Perhaps it is better to say that what David wants is not what most people with influence (ie those who run PANYNJ) want."
No, what AI am saying is that most RIDERS have clearly expressed a preference to the PANYNJ and their elected officials that a BUS is something they do not want in preference to AirTrain. The PA has shown this to be true; your position has been shown to be FALSE.
Were they given the option of the buses having dedicated ROW (eg by banning other vehicles from some or all of the roads the buses use or by the creation of parallel ROW)? That can be a cheap way of achieving much the same journey times.
Low floor buses are great (for buses) but they are not the standard here in the US.
Modern technology like that only appears in the most necessary locations first. If the buses going to JFK don't have it, then something's seriously wrong.
Here in Birmingham, UK, the bus fleet over the last few years has changed from virtually all non-accessible to predominantly accessible.
and their low passenger capacity compared to other buses limits their application.
It is true that on an average double decker, about 8 seats are lost. However, NYC buses hardly maximise their capacity to begin with. There aren't exactly many double deckers, are there? Other ways of increasing capacity include longer buses and even articulated buses. Maybe someone might like to come and look at some of the exciting buses there are in cities like Birmingham, Leicester and Leeds.
I don't see quite what extra is achieved in running a rather small train to Howard Beach over applying modern standards of bus operation, other than a lower operating cost, which is itself negated by capital outlay and the interest thereon.
Sadly, it seems that in America, Margaret Thatcher's words about buses are still true:
"any man who finds himself on a bus at the age of 26 can account himself a failure"
How about working to change this negative image?
(I never thought I'd write such a defence of buses!)
He should be proud that he's doing his part to help break America's addiction to imported oil.
:-D
Not that America doesn't have its own oil... why else is Dubya drilling in Alaska?
The cost of the pipeline will fall on the US govenment. Another gift to Bush's oil company friends. Drilling in the artic national preserve is a big mistake. Not only will it destroy one of the last untouched ecosystems in the world, it won't yeild more then 5% of the US needs for oil. The large cost the government will subsidise this pork barrel project would be better used to deploy and research alternative fuels. Many of these alternative fuels main problem is that they do not have the economy of scale and government support to make them a real alternative to oil.
One such process buy changing world technology kills two birds with one stone. The technology turns waste products such as sewage sludge, tires and plastic and animal waste products into quality deseil fuel
http://www.changingworldtech.com/techfr.htm
FYI Haliburton, The Company VP chaney was CEO of prior to joing bush was just awarded a $70 million contract to help rebuild IRAQ's oil infrastructure
We still produce a lot of oil and gas (esp. gas!) The problem is we use so damn much of it.
So why not buy Russky oil?
Up until recently most of the oil idustry in russia was controled by organized crime. American companies got burned
Besides the american oil companies are in bed with saudi arabia. The #1 biggest supporter of terrorism and who's education system teacdes there students to that killing americans and jews will allow them to go to heaven. NO JOKE do a search on google and you will find NY Times and articles from other papers
The Saudi's also have been spending the oil dollars the US gives them to spread a radical brand of islam around the world in the form of Imans teaching the radical saudi brand of islam even in american jails.
It is no coincidence that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from the UAE.
Not practical here. Nowhere to put the bus lanes, and a bus service would involve much greater operating costs. If you're building an elevated guideway anyway, might as well use rail.
About low-floor buses: "Modern technology like that only appears in the most necessary locations first. If the buses going to JFK don't have it, then something's seriously wrong."
I'm not as harsh about it - but I am glad to see that low-floor buses are being adopted. SEPTA and NYC Transit are buying them, and when you combine them with LNG fuel systems (do those combination exist) you can help improve air quality. We will see more of them in future - but they will not be 100% of the fleet.
"It is true that on an average double decker, about 8 seats are lost. However, NYC buses hardly maximise their capacity to begin with. There aren't exactly many double deckers, are there? Other ways of increasing capacity include longer buses and even articulated buses."
You make a good point. NYC has purchased articulated buses (Neoplans), and they also use over-the road coaches (MCIs). SEPTA uses articulated buses too, on heavily traveled routes (Neoplans).
We'll probably see more of that with time. Still not practical as the primary transit service to our airports.
As are the PA's low floor buses.
I stand corrected. Thank you.
It's called taking away lanes or indeed entire roads from other traffic. If there's only one lane, it should be for the bus. It's how Oxford City Council got rid of the problems buses were having getting along the High.
Still not practical as the primary transit service to our airports.
I see no reason why a bus cannot provide effective service to an International Airport.
I agree with Ron. JFK is too far away for street running buses, even with their own lanes and signal priority. So you'd need highway lanes.
Given that they just rebuilt the LIE, it's amazing that there ISN'T two bus only lanes for express service. But the Van Wyck is another matter. South of the Kew Gardens Interchange, it is the only north south highway that permits trucks east of the BQE and west of the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway, and it is ALWAYS jammed -- and has been since the 1960s.
JFK is a mega air freight destination, and if a product is valuable and time sensitive enough to put in the air rather than on the water you aren't going to put it on a train, even if there was one. So you can't have just two lanes each way for the cars and trucks, in order to make room for buses.
Of course, you could use part of the Rockaway Branch for a busway, but given that the Rego Park NIMBYs have blocked its use for trains don't count on buses.
To borrow an old expression, hell will freeze over (not Dante's version, of course; its core is already frozen) before anybody lets you do that.
Damn it, I know this has been hashed and re-hashed ad infinitum...but I just can't understand the viewpoint. We're not talking about creating a new ROW out of nothing. If anything, it's an alley or a path in a lot or scrub woods or just empty land.
I'm trying to understand the objections of the communities. Could it be new train stations where none has been for a while? Let's say a station is reopened at Woodhaven. How could you, living at or near Atlantic Avenue and 101st Street object to a brand new transit alternative?
More likely, it's the communities north of Hillside Avenue doing most of the objecting. And that is strange, considering nearby areas are already served by two rail systems and plenty of rubber tired transit services. It's not as if the neighborhood is, up to this point, "safely isolated" from the world at large. So what's the beef? So much has been lost....or, at least, put off for a while with the non-development of this corridor. What a great way to place Jamaica Avenue back into the regions' mindset, for one thing. Or Ozone Park. A rail line is the only way these widespread low to medium density city neighborhoods can hope to thrive into the future. There won't be anymore new Van Wyck Expressways built, no more Belt Parkways constructed. How many city neighborhoods have even the possibility of getting brand new railroad service? To reopen that line is to be planning not just for the next 10 years or so but for the next 50 years.
And the short sightedness of the objecters is plainly evident. Can't they see how upscale Forest Hills or Kew Gardens is? Because of the transit? Their bullheadedness is, at times, maddening.
Well, no, it's not that simplem, though Peter's post may make it seem that way. The ROW is in very bad shape; the ROW has been encroached upon; in many places people's houses really are too close for trains to operate reasonably, so eminent domain condemnations wuld have to take place, and land would have to be cleared. I and many others would strongly oppose its operation in certain places unless it went underground. That increases cost.
And yes, you have a lot of NIMBY. Politically connected NIMBY that could crusah the project real early.
Let's stop beating this dead horse and move on.
Agreed, albiet sadly, reluctantly and even shamefully. Although I'll go with what you said in another post. Let's see how the prospects for this ROW are in ten years or so. I predict a change of heart.
Highway lanes between JFK and Howard Beach?!
Most of the criticism expressed in this thread has been regarding the Howard Beach leg, not the Jamaica leg.
The only traffic issue on the Howard Beach shuttle bus is at the terminals themselves. IINM, there are already dual roadways most of the way. Simply reserve the inner roadway for buses.
But that's not extravagant enough for the PA's taste.
Not practical in this case, and politically infeasible. Now, lanes can be added, underground, but if you're going to do that, you might as well invest in rail. Dedicated bus lanes here provide little benefit for huge cost, both in capital and operating cost. What your position doesn't deal with is the inefficiency in operating cost inherent in buses.
If London Transport really thought a bus was so wonderful, then it would have invested in a couple of dedicated lanes instead of extending both the UndergrounD and the commuter train to Heathrow. But they did not.
"I see no reason why a bus cannot provide effective service to an International Airport."
It can, and JFK has bus service serving it. But it is not the primary service. A rail link is far superior, whether or not it conforms to the (mostly arbitrary hogwash) "one-seat ride" concept.
The Howard Beach shuttle runs low floor buses.
No, what AI am saying is that most RIDERS have clearly expressed a preference to the PANYNJ and their elected officials that a BUS is something they do not want in preference to AirTrain.
Most RIDERS have never expressed a preference one way or the other. If AirTrain and the free shuttle bus were to operate simultaneously, if only for a trial period, riders would have the opportunity to express their preferences. How convenient it is that the PA isn't allowing this experiment to transpire!
False statement. You're just making that up, and you know it.
I assume you have proof that "most riders" have been surveyed as opposed to a statistically significant representative sample. :-)
Tom
I don't think that is a particularly good analogy. If you want a British example think more of the 'AirTrain' link to/from Gatwick North Terminal. Passengers to/from both departures and arrivals levels need to use an elavator; but that is still much easier than taking your luggage out of the terminal onto the forecourt, onto (even a low-floor bus) and reverse at the other end.
Which does raise an interesting point that hasn't come out in this discussion yet. Most ground-side airport 'AirTrain' type systems do allow baggage carts on the trains (eg. SFO AirTrain, Birmingham SkyTrain, Gatwick).
I'm not sure if JFK AirTrain is designed for this. That is certainly an advantage over using an NYC subway extension for intra-airport traffic, as has been suggested on this thread.
Yes it is. It is a station which is a total bugger to use on a line which goes to an airport. This is SOLELY due to the elevators.
If you want a British example think more of the 'AirTrain' link to/from Gatwick North Terminal.
I cannot comment on that, seeing as I've only used Gatwick once. I rode the bus.
but that is still much easier than taking your luggage out of the terminal onto the forecourt
At BHX, I prefer the bus. You walk straight out of the Eurohub terminal to the stop for the 900 limited stop bus. It is very quick with a wheeled suitcase, even if the headways on the 900 are pisspoor.
It is much easier with a suitcase than the multiple changes of level required to reach the platforms at International station.
Not that JFKis the best designed airport, either, but what you are describing is not a relevant objection here. Of course, youare describing only your own reaction. I do not know how many of your fellow travelers there would agree with you, or tell you that your preference for a bus is ridiculous.
At any rate, your analogy doesn't work at JFK, and that is the majority opinion, not just mine. The public agrees in surveys they much preferred a rail link.
In addition, AirTrain involved scoping and DEIS stages, which included other alternatives. The final documents support AirTrain's development.
2 problems with that:
- the public will "prefer" a rail link in almost any circumstance, regardless of the feasability of buses.
- the public will "agree" to whatever you want if you phrase the question right.
Don't pretend you're so naive you don't know that.
In addition, AirTrain involved scoping and DEIS stages, which included other alternatives. The final documents support AirTrain's development.
And what is the point of the legal profession? Come on, Aristophanes noticed this 24 centuries ago.
Sounds like the airport was poorly designed.
I like the design of BHX (freight the other side of runway from passengers, buses stop outside passenger terminals and station). Any station will have a change of levels - it's not bad design, it's just that it's a pain with a wheeled suitcase.
I'm at a loss as to why you think hoisting a wheeled suitcase onto a bus (even low floored buses don't have level access to the sidewalk) is easier than getting it onto an elevator or "AirTrain/SkyRail" type system (both of which normally do have level access).
Can you explain?.
[Covent Garden] is a station which is a total bugger to use on a line which goes to an airport. This is SOLELY due to the elevators.
Come off it. The problem with Covent Garden station is that it was designed 100 years ago, and hasn't been much changed since. And pretty obviously the line didn't serve an airport then.
If you really want to represent rail access by Covent Garden, can we please make sure we compare it to horse buses.
Don't pretend you're so naive you don't know that. "
I'm also not naive enough to miss the fact that you would dismiss any survey that didn't reflect your point of view. The fact is, the public was consulted, and even if it wasn't perfect, you have nothing to offer that would be any better.
Isn't that almost always true with public transportation? Even with the high cost of gasoline, if I take four other people with me it is usually cheaper to drive and park than to pay five fares on public transportation. OTOH, if I am traveling alone, the public transportation is cheaper.
>>> Fine, it's an airport circulator. Are you aware of any (non-PANYNJ) airport circulators that charge a fare? <<<
I have not made an exhaustive survey, so I do not know if there are any. But even if this is the only one that charges, it is the operator's decision whether to charge or not.
>>> Whether it gives greater value is a decision to be made by its potential users.
Many will feel that it does give greater value, but that its value is still not 2.5 times that of the subway system. <<<
Not true, that is a decision that is made by the operator of the system. It is like air conditioning in the subway. Those of us hardy souls who remember the Lo-Vs may think we would prefer to have a lower fare and no air conditioning, or a lower fare and no train-bus transfer, but that is not our choice. The amount charged is to a certain extent market driven, so I imagine if the AirTrain is always empty they might lower the fare, and if it is crowded they might increase the fare. The ratio of the AirTrain fare to subway fare is not significant. For those willing to pay the price, the AirTrain is worth 2.5 times a subway ride.
Tom
i dont think so!
I hope the PA's feasibility study was positive on extending PATH to the EWR rail station and hooking it up to AirTrain.
Your claim was that someone who parks and then rides AirTrain has paid his fare in the parking fee. The question isn't whether it's cheaper to drive (only) or to ride public transportation (only) -- it's whether it's cheaper to drive and ride public transportation or to ride public transportation (only).
I have not made an exhaustive survey, so I do not know if there are any. But even if this is the only one that charges, it is the operator's decision whether to charge or not.
If the operator were a private body, I'd agree. Anyone who didn't like the way one airport was operated could open a competing airport.
But JFK isn't a private operation. Its business decisions must be tempered by an outside notion of reasonability, which is largely determined by other operators' practices in similar settings. Charging a fare on an airport circulator doesn't meet that standard of reasonability.
Not true, that is a decision that is made by the operator of the system. It is like air conditioning in the subway. Those of us hardy souls who remember the Lo-Vs may think we would prefer to have a lower fare and no air conditioning, or a lower fare and no train-bus transfer, but that is not our choice. The amount charged is to a certain extent market driven, so I imagine if the AirTrain is always empty they might lower the fare, and if it is crowded they might increase the fare. The ratio of the AirTrain fare to subway fare is not significant. For those willing to pay the price, the AirTrain is worth 2.5 times a subway ride.
Given all we've read here about overcrowding on the 6 and underuse of the M, should NYCT raise the price of a ride on the 6 and lower the price of a ride on the M?
False. The PA has no such obligation. However, if enough people complain to their legislators and to the PA, they may decide to change the arrangement."
"Charging a fare on an airport circulator doesn't meet that standard of reasonability."
That's something you created here on Subtalk, not something the PA is required to do. But you are welcome to write to the Governor and suggest it.
The Airtrain won't charge a fare when it *is* an airport circulator, for trips wholly within the airport perimeter. Neither does the Newark Airtrain, also run by PANYNJ. Fares are only incurred when these trains leave the airport for the outside world. In the Newark case there is another mechanism available for collecting the premium fare, namely on the NJT train fares, because you can't actually leave the airport train station on foot into the outside world.
However, as I argued in another message on this thread, it would make sense not to charge the $5 to Howard Beach (which is only just outside the airport perimeter fence if I remember rightly), while charging it to Jamaica.
I agree, but Tom's argument (justifying AirTrain's lack of integration with the subway system, either in fare or in route) relies on Howard Beach being a part of the airport itself. Strange as that sounds, I'd be willing to entertain it if the PA actually treated Howard Beach as part of the airport itself, but the fare structure demonstrates otherwise.
That is a slight misstatement of what I had said. I said the AirTrain (not Howard Beach) is part of the airport rather than part of the regional rail network. The Howard Beach and Jamaica stations are places where the airport interfaces with the regional rail network. The entrances where one can drive into the airport are where the airport interfaces with the regional road network.
Tom
Uh, RonInBayside...I have not seen ONE posting by Mr. Greenberger that wasn't concise, precise, and purely pertinent data. His facts are straight on the money. Sorry but when it comes to critical analysis of a given subject I have to go with Mr. Greenberger.
Whenever the politicians figure they can get away with it.
Tom
David Greenberger enjoys playing with definitions (and it is an important intellectual skill which serves him well and makes him quite articulate). I like reading his posts; often he has great insights and really good analysis, because he is precise about details.
He's having fun with AirTrain, though.
And as such is a bloody good idea, like Ken Livingstone's Congestion Charge in London (which he's now pledged to add Heathrow Airport to in 2005). In fact, I'd like it if PANYNJ charged a double AirTrain fare to parking lot users...
traveling by public transportation and being charged a relatively small fee
Relative to what? AirTrain will cost less to run than the B15 bus, but the fare will be 150% higher. Relative to the B15 bus, it is an extortionate fee.
It gives greater value than the present free shuttle bus from Howard Beach, and users will pay for the improvement.
Value to whom? Obviously it's greater value to PANYNJ as it reduces their operating costs and increases their revenue at once. The question is as to whether and in what way this is of any value to anyone else.
Making out that AirTrain is better value to riders than a bus is the same as making out that Concorde is better value than a normal BA plane from LHR to JFK (and we all know how Concorde is being withdrawn because people see no reason to pay £8,000 when they can pay £250).
Not if you count the interest on capital costs. Somebody has to pay that interest, after all. Either taxpayers or Airtrain riders or airplane passengers.
It is indeed a shame we stopped believing in Leviticus 25:36-38.
"ne accipias usuras ab eo nec amplius quam dedisti time Deum tuum ut vivere possit frater tuus apud te. pecuniam tuam non dabis ei ad usuram et frugum superabundantiam non exiges. ego Dominus Deus vester qui eduxi vos de terra Aegypti ut darem vobis terram Chanaan et essem vester Deus."
(Vulgate)
"Take not usury of him nor more than thou gavest: fear thy God, that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor exact of him any increase of fruits. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that I might give you the land of Chanaan, and might be your God."
(Rheims-Douay)
Oh well, I guess other people have freedom of religion too...
"ne accipias usuras ab eo nec amplius quam dedisti time Deum tuum ut vivere possit frater tuus apud te. pecuniam tuam non dabis ei ad usuram et frugum superabundantiam non exiges. ego Dominus Deus vester qui eduxi vos de terra Aegypti ut darem vobis terram Chanaan et essem vester Deus."
(Vulgate)
If you truly believe this literally, perhaps you should leave Britain and move to Saudi Arabia. Banks are not allowed to charge interest (you will find there are other types of compensation, of course).
Whenever you deal that superficially with a prodigious work like the Bible, you cheat yourself profoundly (among other things).
You miss the small point that you are not allowed to believe in the Bible in Saudi Arabia.
Whenever you deal that superficially with a prodigious work like the Bible
I was not being at all superficial. Until about 1600, it was considered un-Christian to charge interest (why else do you think that bankers were Jews?). What basically happened was that people abandoned their principles to get rich.
That's not the relevant point here. The relevant point I was making is that the Koran also forbids the charging of interests, and the Saudis follow that literally (but of course, they get around it).
"I was not being at all superficial. Until about 1600, it was considered un-Christian to charge interest (why else do you think that bankers were Jews?)."
It was also unChristian to think the earth rotated around the sun.
"What basically happened was that people abandoned their principles to get rich."
No, I' afraid not. What happened is people developed new methods of inquiry, new means of producing wealth for themselves and others, and led the way to a society whose complexities and opportunities you are evidently uncomfortable with.
And yes, your approach is incredibly superficial, and in manyplaces would be considered crude and uneducated as well.
Irrelevant. I do not believe in the Koran.
It was also unChristian to think the earth rotated around the sun.
You are conflating physics and ethics. Kindly consult a dictionary (or alternatively the relevant three books of Aristotle) before proceeding further.
new means of producing wealth for themselves and others, and led the way to a society whose complexities and opportunities you are evidently uncomfortable with.
Yes, people abandoned their principles to become rich. You admitted it. You provide what is to you a justification; to me it is an inadmissible excuse. You view it as moral. I view it as immoral. We disagree. That is no reason for you to use offensive language at my sense of morality.
And yes, your approach is incredibly superficial,
I take offence at your religiously intolerant comments. I invite you to retract that or else move to a suitable country, for instance Saudi Arabia.
in manyplaces would be considered crude and uneducated as well.
Again, I suggest that you stop hurling insults based on religious intolerance.
If you wish to share your interpretation of scripture, then I would be interested to hear it.
You also do not understand the Koran, whether you believe in it or not. It appears you may not understand the Bible either - that's a pity, since you do want to believe in that.
"It was also unChristian to think the earth rotated around the sun.
You are conflating physics and ethics."
No, I'm not. I'm referring to the kind of primitive thinking which infected both the Pope at the time and your post. It has zilch to do with ethics.
"Yes, people abandoned their principles to become rich."
No, they did not. They may have discovered, however, that their principles could be upheld while improving everyone's life. Life in the 1600's meant dying early of disease and pestilence and constant warfare. When it was no longer "un-Christian" to dissect human bodies, doctors began to understand disease and its treatment, and public hygiene, better. When Pacioli (spelling?) invented double-entry bookkeeping, he contributed to our ability to understand and create economic value. That wasn't an abandonment of principlees; that was a gift and a rejection of the "thought poverty" all too common back then. You don't really want to bring that back, do you?
(And yes, your approach is incredibly superficial)
"I take offence at your religiously intolerant comments."
I am not intolerant of any religion. I am dismayed by the profound ignorance frequently put on display by its self-styled "purists." It was your comment that was, in reality, fearful and closed-minded.
Most devout Christians today would double over with laughter at the idea that interest is evil. Muslims, with the possible exception of the Wahabi (and there is a lot of hypocrisy there anyway) thankfully have gotten past it. Islam has a rich tradition of science and discovery, which in modern times has been squandered by many Middle Eastern countries. Christianity has at times suffered the same sort of thing.
"If you wish to share your interpretation of scripture, then I would be interested to hear it."
The Bible is much more than "Scripture." It is the basis of liturgy, yes, and many different traditions of liturgy (Christiany of many denominations, Judaism, etc. etc.) and also an allegorical tome, a history book, a political science text. It has all kinds of quandaries, problems, paradoxes. To dismiss it as "Scripture" is a little like trying to appreciate an iceberg by looking only at its tip.
To this day, observant Jews obey the command you cited, only it's taken to refer only to loans with other Jews.
No, it is not. The PA's "markup" is not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the cost vs. the benefit to the passenger. If the PA provides a service that people will use (and we shall see soon enough what happens in real life) then it will have charged the right price.
If not, the price can be lowered to encourage ridership.
"Making out that AirTrain is better value to riders than a bus is the same as making out that Concorde is better value than a normal BA plane from LHR to JFK (and we all know how Concorde is being withdrawn because people see no reason to pay £8,000 when they can pay £250)."
That was only a very recent event (due to 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq). The service had actually been profitable until 2001, though the market was too small to expand beyond 16 airplanes. For those people who rode (and made BA and AirFrance a profit), the Concorde was indeed a better value - else they would not have used it.
Don't you guys have any sense of public agencies being accountable to the people and meant to be acting pro bono publico? O tempora, o mores!
What is relevant is the cost vs. the benefit to the passenger.
Exactly. AirTrain will get you to JFK. So will the B15 bus. I hold that this is an equation of benefit. Historically, so has NYC. It was the entire basis of "One City: One Fare" (one of the big plusses of NYC). If you are saying it should cost $5 to ride the B15 bus, as that is what public transport to JFK (or indeed anywhere within NYC) should cost, then you have a point. However, I would consider it a rather large fare hike.
If the PA provides a service that people will use (and we shall see soon enough what happens in real life) then it will have charged the right price.
And it will be the greatest step backward in terms of unification in the history of transit in NYC. You are indeed right that people will be stupid or desperate enough to put up with this fare, but it is a reversion to the pre-Dual Contracts era of thought. I thought times had changed.
That was only a very recent event (due to 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq).
Actually more of a long term trend of improved telecommunications (eg the internet and ADSN lines), the basic price of air travel dropping and a slow-down in the economy. 9/11 and those wars have not helped, but they are only events which have pronounced an existing situation.
though the market was too small to expand beyond 16 airplanes.
Otherwise called expensive, pre-Henry Ford methods of production. Great use of good technology...
Actually more of a long term trend of improved telecommunications (eg the internet and ADSN lines), the basic price of air travel dropping and a slow-down in the economy. 9/11 and those wars have not helped, but they are only events which have pronounced an existing situation.
The Concorde may not be dead quite yet. Virgin Atlantic is considering acquiring British Airways' aircraft and operating them.
So will a taxi, or a shuttle-van, or your own car.
I hold that this is an equation of benefit. Historically, so has NYC. It was the entire basis of "One City: One Fare" (one of the big plusses of NYC).
That equation can only works if you assume a customer base whose only option is to ride NYC transit. Otherwise you have to factor in all the other transport modes that people use which do not charge the NYC fare.
Now that may be a reasonable assumption for NYC's primary customer base (people who ride the subway to work), but it is completely inappropriate for people travelling to the airport.
There the equation of benefit is much more sensibly applied to the current taxi/shuttle-van/own-car 'fares'. Because they have a much larger current market share than the B15 bus.
(I assume this is a typo and you mean "...NYCT's primary customer base...")
The majority of transit usage is now off-peak. I take that to mean that most subway riders are not going to work. Speaking from experience, I can say that some lines (e.g., mine) are often crush loaded on weekends and after midnight.
Perhaps you've missed the point that the Howard Beach leg of AirTrain will be replacing a free shuttle bus service. Who do you think uses the shuttle bus? Subway riders (and a handful of Howard Beach residents). While the Jamaica leg is targeted at cab and shuttle bus passengers (though I'm skeptical even they will find it attractive), the Howard Beach leg is targeted at subway passengers.
The way you come up with a price is to set the price at what your target market is willing to pay. If ridership does not meet that mark, they will have to lower the price.
"Concorde is being withdrawn because people see no reason to pay £8,000 when they can pay £250"
Riders who were paying $9000 for a flight on a concord will never buy a $350 seat. They will fly first class ticket for $4000. Part of the problem with concord is two fold. Corporate heads are under more scrutiy from stockholders and can no longer justify the concord as a business expense. Celebs are not flying to europe because of the war
The concord is an old plane. It's burns a tremedous amount of gas and parts are very expensive.
It is a monument of the failed efforts of the european airospace industry to supplant american aircraft makers that it took two decades to catch up from the mistake that is the concord
I had the pleasure to go aboard(but not fly on) the concord. It is a lovely aircraft
Bit unfair. Concorde was an excellent idea and virtually halved flight times across the Atlantic. However, the failure to build enough of them left it as being an expensive technology.
At privatisation, Virgin took over services that were already using HSTs. Since they had to run the service with something from privatisation day 1, they had little choice but to go on using the trains that were already running those services. Midland Mainline and First Great Western were in the same situation and are both still running HSTs. Virgin now has some new hi-tech trains for the cross-country route on which the HSTs were so spectacularly unreliable, and is getting rid of the HSTs, some of them to Midland Mainline which is running them still in Virgin livery (I rode in one of those yesterday).
Not that the Class 220/221s haven't got their problems. The trains are too short and are often horribly overcrowded. Virgin's solution to this is to remove stops rather than add carriages. Oh, and the fancy new computerised seat reservations are tempremental to say the least. At least they've made a token gesture to the sanctity of Coach B - they've put up "Quiet Zone" signs - however, in my experience, the old "Smoking" signs worked better in discouraging irritating noise.
is getting rid of the HSTs, some of them to Midland Mainline which is running them still in Virgin livery
And those bastards got rid of my nice quiet smoking car too!
The Russian TU-144 was also a notable achievement (they did one better by giving the 144 a canard). However, it could not "supercruise" like the Concorde. Its afterburners remained lit for the duration of the flight above Mach 1, which could easily double or triple the fuel burn. Thus, it had limited range.
When the Heathrow Express started running a few years back, was the Piccadilly line cut back to Hounslow West (or Hatton Cross), or were Underground fares raised to Heathrow Express levels? No and no. The budget service is still of use to budget travelers.
You're about to see the evidence in real life. Withhold judgment until then.
"When the Heathrow Express started running a few years back, was the Piccadilly line cut back to Hounslow West (or Hatton Cross), or were Underground fares raised to Heathrow Express levels? No and no. The budget service is still of use to budget travelers."
The subway isn'tr being cutr back, but pricing will change. If enough people complain and ridership drops, the price will change.
Pricing will change by 250%. That's quite a change. Why am I wasting my time criticizing a 75% increase in the price of a Fun Pass when I can point to AirTrain?
But you're not really doing anything at all. You're just blowing smoke on Subtalk.
:0)
The Newark Airtrain also charges its $5, but it is collected as part of the NJT fare from the Newark Airport station - the fares from that station to all destinations are higher than they ought to be for the distance. They can do it this way at Newark because there is no way off the airport train station - to leave it, you have to use either a train or the Airtrain - so you cannot avoid the $5 supplement by riding the Airtrain and then walking away from the train station.
As others have said, the real gripe is the withdrawal of the Howard Beach bus while charging $5 for the Howard Beach Airtrain. The solution (but it won't happen) would be to make the Howard Beach Airtrain free - the A train isn't very frequent there, so this is a slow service - but charge the $5 for the Jamaica one, which is a new facility and links to the faster but more expensive trains on the LIRR, as well as to a more frequent express subway line, the E.
Incidentally the Heathrow Express isn't going to be operating at all over the Easter weekend (for four days, Fri-Mon inclusive) because Paddington mainline terminus is closed for a G.O. The premium passengers will have to slum it on the Piccadilly Line (8-) !
It's good that both Underground and commuter rail service can be had at Heathrow. More choice is a good thing.
London Luton - is this an airport with scheduled service, or is this like the PA's Teterboro NJ Airport (corporate and private aircraft and helicopters)? Does it get international flights?
HX is hardly a commuter train - it doesn't stop anywhere and charges a "premium" (i.e. rip-off) fare. There are no stopping trains from Paddington to Heathrow - bit of a shame seeing as some of those stops would have been pretty useful (Ealing Bway for instance).
London Luton - is this an airport with scheduled service
It sure is. It is used by BA, EasyJet, Britannia, Monarch, and Aer Arann. You can fly from Luton to a wide range of domestic (including Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness) and foreign (including Athens, Madrid, Palma de Mallorca, Paris CDG and Zurich) destinations.
It rather helpfully for me has a station served by Midland Mainline. Thameslink also serves the station (and rather more frequently than Midland!).
See. That's why the LIRR Rockaway Beach ROW woulda been better! :-)
Yes, if it were possible. Unfortunately, it is not, at least for the foreseeable future. The fact that we want something does not meamn we can, or even should spend money on it if it is not able to accomplish what we want. Revisit this in 10 years and we'll see.
Plus West London bus connections are still very good. My favourite is bus to Feltham, train to Waterloo.
There is a free shuttle bus from the train station to London Luton airport
That must take forever! I can see the convenience of it, but my guess would be that it'd be much quicker to ride HX to Pad, then the H&C Line to Farringdon, then Thameslink to Luton AP.
I'd probably for the fun of it try something crazy like bus to Feltham, train to Twickenham, train via the Kingston Loop to Wimbledon, then Thameslink to Luton AP. However, most riders are not trying to get an LSW flying junction or two into their journey!
and then you get a choice between the premium-fare Gatwick Express and cheaper ordinary commuter trains into London (and to other destinations).
Pity Gatwick's miles out in beautiful South London Surrey - and only just - 3 Bridges, the next stop, is in Sussex. Random useless Sussex observation: people from Sussex pronounce Chichester "Chiddesterrr".
Incidentally the Heathrow Express isn't going to be operating at all over the Easter weekend (for four days, Fri-Mon inclusive) because Paddington mainline terminus is closed for a G.O.
It's days like those you wish London Broad Street still existed to re-route trains into - leaving the MLN (I love the way the GW Main Line is simply chained as "Main LiNe") tracks at Acton Main Line along the AWL curve (Acton East Jn - Acton Wells Jn) then along BOK through Willesden Jn HL and all the way to Broad St.
I guess if they'd wanted to, a reroute to St Pancras (via the Cricklewood Branch), Euston (via the N&SWJ tracks), Victoria or Waterloo (both via the N&SWJ tracks, the WLL and Clapham Jn - okay, technically it's Longhedge and Latchmere Jns not Clapham Jn) would have worked. I'd've quite liked to see HX at all of those but Euston too!
Anyway, I can imagine the scenes when all the Welsh and Cornish are told their train's terminating at Reading, but they can get a stopping train to Ealing Broadway to ride the... CENTRAL LINE!!!
The premium passengers will have to slum it on the Piccadilly Line (8-) !
Or they might get one one of those big red things with rubber thingies on their wheels... I'd do that over riding over-crowded tin can trains. I never got why the Piccadilly Line got the Heathrow Branch - C and D stock trains are so much bigger than any tin cans.
Write to the PA and tell them that's what you want.
But then again, I have to experience it to really decide if it's worth it. Until then, I'm against the 5 buck fare for the segment.
OK. You have to do what's best for you. If it turns out that enough people think as you do, the PA will take notice and remedy it.
And those budget travelers will still have the ability to take the A to Lefferts with a free transfer to the Q10 bus. In fact, I have no idea why more people don't utilize this option currently, as the Q10 actually runs more frequently than the Subway Shuttle bus.
Why do you consistently ignore this reality?
I'm not ignoring it. It's one of three options (four, if you count the Q3) to reach the airport for a single subway fare. The shuttle bus is the most popular of those three options, and it's slated for elimination. I don't think that's a good idea.
If the cabbies are smart, they'll ask NYCDOT for a taxi stand near the Rockaway Boulevard station. A trains run twice as frequently there as to Howard Beach, and the fare from there to the airport will be less than $5 (and passengers traveling in groups can split the fare).
I've also taken the bus from Rockville Centre to JFK. (Forgot the route #) It's been discontinued. I don't know why; lack of ridership? That was a decent connection for suburbia. If you didn't have many bags to carry it was the quickest way there. Take any Babylon branch train to R.C. and transfer to the direct bus. It was extended to Hempstead on a non-stop express run between Hempstead and Rockville Centre. (The ONLY north/south express transit service ever offered in Nassau/Suffolk!) Which meant a single fare trip from any Hempstead or R.C.-bound bus in Nassau County, or even Bablylon in Suffolk, to JFK, with one transfer at Hempstead.
JFK Flyer.
I heard that indeed it was lack of ridership that lead to its cancellation. Not sure whether the lack of ridership had anything to do with the bus itself; it might have been attributable to the decline in airport traffic.
Almost anytime I've used JFK, I have been driven, so that is true.
As for a bus, I would never consider a bus. I would however consider rail if that was an option. Rail is more reliable, and can not get stuck in traffic. For the most part, if the schedule says you will be at the airport at 6:00, most of the time you will be there within that time. A bus doesn't have that luxury. Road conditions vary day to day. Any LI JFK Flyer connection using a bus was doomed.
A bus would not due because it is prone to get delayed
Trains are fast and effecient and once built are cheaper to opertate then buses with all new transit links operation in automatic mode.
It is time the MTA gets off there butts and agressivly roll out ATO on NYCT transit
Why not? Plenty of people think nothing of taking a bus from Jamaica.
The JFK Flyer was very handy. It ran every day, and R.V.C. is a decent enough place to transfer to a bus or train from. Not a small consideration for Long Islanders. The buses were equipped with large luggage racks, not regular buses. For that matter, you could get a better transit connection for Brooklyn than in any fashion, by catching the B15 at the airport. That in itself is a first; going from the south shore of Nassau County into Brooklyn bypassing Jamaica. In transit terms, that's like going from NY to LA without passing through Chicago.
I guess it didn't get the chance to prove itself. And the economy, of course. Too bad.
In New York, dedicated busways are impractical (exception: the dedicated ramp leading into the PA Bus Terminal. But that doesn't get rid of the delays and traffic under the Hudson.)
I took it one time only. I arrived at JFK without making plans for a ride home. I walked out of the terminal to get better reception on my cell phone, saw the bus coming and was able to get to the stop before it passed. 55 minutes from the terminal to Rockville Centre LIRR, then about 10-15 minutes for the bus connection to my house. 1:10 compared to a 20 minute car ride isn't awful by public transit standards, but with 45 minute headways, the true average travel time was really 1:30 or so. I'd call a cab before suffering that long a trip -- $30 is well worth an hour of my life not spent standing around JFK and riding LI Bus.
On the other hand, I do expect to use the AirTrain from Jamaica for all my JFK travel.
CG
From past Rockville Centre to JFK in 20 minutes? When, at two in the morning? I don't think so. It could easily take 20 minutes just to get from the Belt to your terminal.
I'd even dispute that. I'm not sure why the Flyer didn't become successful but its intrinsic value can't be denied. The economics of the bus ride are attractive also. As I noted previously, the JFK Flyer allowed a one fare ride from a large area to the airport. Any other option is more expensive. And don't discount the idea of not having to ride into Jamaica for a lot of people. Say someone has commited to taking public transit to JFK. If they start at Lindenhurst, it's about a 20-25 minute train ride to Rockville Centre. Train comes twice an hour, middays. The same train will go to Jamaica, but it'll take another 15-20 minutes to get there. By that time, assuming decent connection timing, the passenger who got off in R.V.C. has just boarded his direct-to-the-airport-terminal bus. Just for the hell of it, let's say that bus left R.V.C. at the same time the train arrived in Jamaica.
Now, the Jamaica rider has to probably go down, or up, a stairway to walk over to the AirTrain platform. Say his train leaves within 10 minutes. The trip down to the airport will take what? Twenty minutes? By this time the bus rider has already reached her terminal, figuring on a 45 minute ride. And she only had to transfer once...and there's an escalator at Rockville Centre.
My example is valid for the areas covered by the Bablylon Branch and area buses so it couldn't be considered a system-wide option. But it sure worked for that specific population. The main hump about it was the non-sexy image of a bus. But dang it, here was a solution that used ALREADY EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE efficiently and directly. They shoulda' had better advertising for it.
Yes, it can, and the bus service died because of it.
"Now, the Jamaica rider has to probably go down, or up, a stairway to walk over to the AirTrain platform. Say his train leaves within 10 minutes. The trip down to the airport will take what? Twenty minutes? By this time the bus rider has already reached her terminal, figuring on a 45 minute ride. And she only had to transfer once...and there's an escalator at Rockville Centre."
AirTrain offers more in the way of elevators, escalators and other aids than the pitiful facility at Rockville Center ever will. Your example is a joke.
"And don't discount the idea of not having to ride into Jamaica for a lot of people."
Pure BS. Total nonsense, as the ridership figures at Jamaica without AirTrain already show.
"Say someone has commited to taking public transit to JFK. If they start at Lindenhurst, it's about a 20-25 minute train ride to Rockville Centre. Train comes twice an hour, middays."
Why would I take a train service to Rockville Center so I can wait for a notoriously unreliable bus to take me to the airport, when every train coming out of LI stops at Jamaica and AirTrain operates, via climate controlled facility with every amenity, every few minutes?
"The same train will go to Jamaica, but it'll take another 15-20 minutes to get there. By that time, assuming decent connection timing, the passenger who got off in R.V.C. has just boarded his direct-to-the-airport-terminal bus."
Only if he's timed it right, and the bus is on time and doesn't run into traffic. You live in a dream world, my friend.
I think we've put this puppy to bed, don't you?
But the one escalator was all that is needed. You just walk off the train and step onto the escalator and ride it down to the street. Then you walk about 15 feet and enter the bus. You stay comfortably seated until you reach your terminal. Again (sigh), this is NOT an all-encompassing region-wide solution. It's a dedicated solution to a target audience.
""And don't discount the idea of not having to ride into Jamaica for a lot of people.""
"Pure BS. Total nonsense, as the ridership figures at Jamaica without AirTrain already show"
Uh, what percentage of LIRR passengers exit at Jamaica? To work or whatever in Jamaica, or to connect with buses...or even to connect with the subway? I'll say this: At rush hours, not a large percentage. I've never seen or been on any LIRR train that significantly emptied at Jamaica. Overall, maybe, roughly, 5% of any given train will be headed there. Flatbush bound riders don't count since they ain't staying in Jamaica.
"Why would I take a train service to Rockville Center so I can wait for a notoriously unreliable bus to take me to the airport, when every train coming out of LI stops at Jamaica and AirTrain operates, via climate controlled facility with every amenity, every few minutes?
There's a simple solution to the problem of being "notoriously unreliable". You become reliable. If the bus wasn't sticking to it's departure schedules, make sure it departs on schedule. This would be a simple, effective and inexpensive solution. Even with the traffic you mention, it's never enough, outside of rush hour to make the trip into the airport take more than the scheduled 45 minutes or so. Have you ever done that trip, so you would know what you were talking about? Sure, Jamaica is a central location for airport-bound transit facilities. So what? It's the ONLY way? Again, your discounting of the local, more fiscally prudent ridership is showing some ignorance of the totality of the problem of people-moving dynamics as related to urban airports. Yep, it can make a difference: $1.75 train + $1.50 bus vs. $5.75 train + $5.00 (?) AirTrain. You're wrong about every train stopping there also. Not at rush hours. Nor does the Port Washington Branch. So even you have a need to check his facts before posting blindly.
""The same train will go to Jamaica, but it'll take another 15-20 minutes to get there. By that time, assuming decent connection timing, the passenger who got off in R.V.C. has just boarded his direct-to-the-airport-terminal bus.""
"Only if he's timed it right, and the bus is on time and doesn't run into traffic. You live in a dream world, my friend."
Timing is everything. Even connecting LIRR trains to Jamaica can get delayed. Even brand new AirTrains can go O.O.S. or be delayed. I'll ignore the "dream world" comment.
"I think we've put this puppy to bed, don't you?"
Nope. I've not seen anything quantifiable to alter my basic premise. The mutt continues to howl.
And it didn't work. So MTA read the writing on the wall and cancelled it. So much for your regional solution. For the record, I'm sorry it didn't work (I would not have been standing around with a protest sign saying "Cancel the Bus.")
"Uh, what percentage of LIRR passengers exit at Jamaica? To work or whatever in Jamaica, or to connect with buses...or even to connect with the subway?"
You obviously don't; I did for a lkong time and a lot of people were riding down that escalator with me after I got off the LIRR. I used it both at rush hour and non-rush hour. And the waiting room downstairs was always full of people (inconvenienced as of late due to rehab-related construction).
"At rush hours, not a large percentage. I've never seen or been on any LIRR train that significantly emptied at Jamaica."
I have, many times. But what's relevant is that there are enough people exiting there that the notion that passengers will avoid it unless they have no choice is a false one. Start up AirTrain, and you've got another reason to get off at Jamaica.
"There's a simple solution to the problem of being "notoriously unreliable". You become reliable. If the bus wasn't sticking to it's departure schedules, make sure it departs on schedule. This would be a simple, effective and inexpensive solution."
Unfortunately, that never seems to be accomplished. Maybe if they hired you, it would be better?
"Again, your discounting of the local, more fiscally prudent ridership is showing some ignorance of the totality of the problem of people-moving dynamics as related to urban airports. Yep, it can make a difference: $1.75 train + $1.50 bus vs. $5.75 train + $5.00 (?) AirTrain"
Wrong. There will be people for whom AirTrain is uneconomical, but those people (such as you) are in the minority, and you'll have other ways to use a bus to get to the airport. So you are already taken care of. The majority of the market is not, and does not value the economics the way you do.
"You're wrong about every train stopping there also. Not at rush hours."
Do you make it a habit of missing 20 trains so you can complain about the one that didn't stop at Jamaica?
" I've not seen anything quantifiable to alter my basic premise. The mutt continues to howl. "
Then you'll do it on your own. I'd like to have a meanoingful debate with you, but you don't have enough facts with you to do it.
This is getting tiresome. I've seen no outpouring of "facts" from your end. You are exhorting to the same degree that I am. One example: Just because you exited at Jamaica frequently does not a datum make. I too have used Jamaica, for decades. And what I've posted holds true. "Most" people don't get out there. Hell yes, local people and people with direct connections to or near Jamaica Station do access it. That's why the ticket sellers and the waiting room are in existence. It's a very very handy facility. However, we were discussing the amount of traffic ORIGINATING IN NASSAU/SUFFOLK that exit at Jamaica. Not the very existence of such a phenomena. Okay, I'm a rail buff and a transit buff. For instance, I've traveled from Williamsburg to Patchogue by bus. That trip takes four buses and about as many hours. So what? I'm not claiming that this is a viable option for the MAJORITY of travelers. I think it's the same thing with the concept of getting off at Jamaica, pre-AirTrain. It wasn't in the cards for the "money crowd" to do anything there.
It was telling when you mentioned that "...you people are taken care of..." regarding local bus connections to the airport. To transfer to the Q3 means at least two buses if you're starting from east of Freeport or Hempstead. Then there's the notion that the Q3 is sufficient for the Nassau/Suffolk ridership along with the Queens ridership. In effect you're stating that this is the price such riders have to pay. And it's curious that your first response to the Jamaica quandry was a recitation of your personal journeys there. This is not a well thought out answer as it makes you appear as "earnest" as I am regarding train buff-ery emotions. Two train nuts chewing the fat.
Which is cool. It is SubTalk. And I'm pleased as punch that you wouldn't be standing with a sign deriding the bus service. I too would never do the same re: AirTrain. Sure, I'm pissed that the LIRR ROW wasn't used. But I'm happy as a monkey in a tree to see such mega development opportunities finally touch Jamaica. And the buff in me can appreciate the Brand New Rail Line being built in the city. That's a rarity!! So, hooray for the P.A.! But don't kill the JKF Flyer. And I did write a letter to the MTA about it. If/When I get a reply I'll relate it here.
I can bring you to the trough, but I can't make you drink. You have to do that yourself.
"You are exhorting to the same degree that I am."
Not really. You're doing all the exhorting. I'm quite relaxed.
"Okay, I'm a rail buff and a transit buff. For instance, I've traveled from Williamsburg to Patchogue by bus."
You're not a transit buff; you're a masochist. Did you flog yourself along the way, or did you let the buses do that for you? :0)
"So what? I'm not claiming that this is a viable option for the MAJORITY of travelers."
OK, I'll buy that. Incidentally, you may be interested that the JFK Corporate Center, a 350,000 square foot private commercial development, is now in the works, intended for use by AirTrain and LIRR (and subway) patrons.
"Then there's the notion that the Q3 is sufficient for the Nassau/Suffolk ridership along with the Queens ridership. In effect you're stating that this is the price such riders have to pay"
That is the price the PA and MTA are, in effect, imposing. However, public demand (and more riders) could change that, so it's never a totally lost cause. I am not anti-bus per se. You want your bus back - take out a pen and paper (or word processor) and get to work. I wish you luck.
"And it's curious that your first response to the Jamaica quandry was a recitation of your personal journeys there. "
I was comparing my journeys to yours, since you made yours the basis for your argument. Your data was your journeys.
"Two train nuts chewing the fat."
I'm happy to do that with anyone. :0)
"Sure, I'm pissed that the LIRR ROW wasn't used"
Wait 10 years. When ESA approaches completion, this can be revisited. I think the Van Wyck ROW is far superior, and glad it was utilized; however, I think the Rockaway ROW can be revived if the train goes underground through significant parts of it, and consideration is given to stacking the tunnels to reduce the width of the ROW that is actually used. And a lot of political rear end
will have to be kissed and massaged. And then cross your fingers and don't be upset if it still doesn't work.
"But I'm happy as a monkey in a tree to see such mega development opportunities finally touch Jamaica. And the buff in me can appreciate the Brand New Rail Line being built in the city. That's a rarity!! So, hooray for the P.A.!"
Now we're on the same page.
"But don't kill the JKF Flyer. And I did write a letter to the MTA about it. If/When I get a reply I'll relate it here. "
Your stock with me just went up 20 points.
Much as I despise these non-referenced reply posts.....`nuff said.
"And in the end, Jamaica, Queens finally gets a new start."
Actually, that started in 1987, wjhen the Archer Av line finally opened. The TA caused a lot of pain during the 1970's and early 1980's, when it couldn't get its act together on anything.
But I gotta give credit where it's due. The Archer Av line, with its limitations, was the original kickstarter to this whole thing.
Is a signficant percentage of that 350K square feet pre-leased to creditworthy tenants? If not, it's unlikely that any lenders would touch the project with the proverbial ten-foot pole. Spec (i.e. not preleased) developments in Midtown Manhattan can't get financing. Ones in an untested market like Jamaica - well, you figure it out.
You're prejudging a project you know even less about than I do. And you're looking at the wrong comparator.
The market is for airport conferencing - there is demand for it, and in New York that demand is not met by anything yet. So the risk in this project is relatively small compared to other developments, even in midtown. And because the size is not humungous, the risk is moderated by that, too.
I think the banks, who will look at this with a much less jaundiced but more informed eye than you do, will figure out there is something here.
BTW, I understand One Jamaica Center has opened, and is doing reasonably well.
If people were riding it, I'd agree with you. I don't expect transit to turn a profit.
But, as both a taxpayer and a fan of transit, seeing that bus run empty day after day after day made me want to hurl.
Thankfully, the resources have been diverted to a new bus line from Freeport to Roosevelt Field which from my (limited) observations has much better ridership than the Flyer ever did.
CG
Well, I'm surprised by your observation. It's a sensible idea. Maybe there could have been better signage, along the route and at the airport? Maybe not the first time they see it but people might've taken note of the option and thought to at least find out more about it.
On a smaller level, out in Suffolk, the Ronkonkoma LIRR station is served by a direct Suffolk Transit bus to MacArthur Airport. But ther are NO signs at all anywhere in or around the station to indicate this. There is a large sign for the privately-run shuttle taxi service, however, and guys yelling out "airport shuttle" near the platforms when a train pulls in. Too bad nobody at Suffolk Transit has the acumen to hustle the public transit available to the airport there. Or just some marketing skills. There's SOME kind of market for this bus. But you gotta let the people know about it.
9/11 didn't help. During the period they were requiring you to arrive 2 hours before your flight -- who wants to leave their house in, say, Wantagh 3.5 hours before their 2 hour flight to Florida?
The one thing I thought they should have done was make it a limited stop bus all the way from Hempstead/Rockville Centre to the city line. With the local bus, if ridership had ever grown it just would have slowed down service more.
CG
If these people's employer saw it as an advantage, that bus could have been subsidized and employees given passes to ride it. That would be a legitimate strategy; anybody else boarding and paying a fare would be gravy.
"9/11 didn't help. During the period they were requiring you to arrive 2 hours before your flight -- who wants to leave their house in, say, Wantagh 3.5 hours before their 2 hour flight to Florida? "
You're right.
"The one thing I thought they should have done was make it a limited stop bus all the way from Hempstead/Rockville Centre to the city line. With the local bus, if ridership had ever grown it just would have slowed down service more. "
That wold have definitely have been worth a shot.
Well, so that's that. Maybe, "after conditions "stabilize"", the approach can be tried again. If at first you don't succeed, etc. If you look at Long Island you do see areas where new ideas in bus transportation can take hold. For instance, that BRT idea sure doesn't seem like a good fit for NYC but the extended linear dimensions of Nassau/Suffolk might offer a better test bed for such a service. It's being bandied about re: NY 347 rebuilding. And I've often wondered how an extended express & local service along the L.I.E. never has been given a serious consideration.
The LIRR supposedly puts the kibosh on such notions. (kybosh?)
When I flew into JFK in February, I had to ask someone where to get the B15, since there were no signs in the terminal. When I found the bus stop (which wasn't in the same place as the PA shuttle bus stop), there were signs for "Q3,Q10 to Queens" and "B15 to Brooklyn" -- no mention of any subway connections that might be of possible interest to a few travelers. Is it any wonder that I was the only passenger on the bus with luggage? I don't think many air travelers even know there's a bus connecting the airport to the 3 and L trains.
Those taxi hustlers are annoying, for sure. I suppose business must be lousy, given the number of them and how loud they can be.
Anyway, I'm not so sure that the bus to the airport would be particularly useful given Suffolk Transit's relatively infrequent service.
That route is the S57 and it runs pretty good, for Suffolk. I was on it once coming up from Sayville. At the airport, there was a group of baggage-laden passengers, obviously just off the plane, seemingly looking for a taxi or car service. They noticed the bus, enquiries were made, and, lo and behold! They got onto the bus, baggage and all. Everyone was SURPRISED and PLEASED at this unexpected transit line. And to keep it in perspective, they took the bus to the LIRR at Ronkonkoma! So the system showed it can be viable. But at the airport, like at the railroad station, no signs. Sigh.
Train arrives RVC Time 0:00
The JFK Flyer passenger goes down the elevator (the escalator only goes up) to the bus stop and waits (on average 22.5 minutes) then hauls his luggage up the bus steps and rides 45 minutes to the terminals, arriving at 0:57.5 -- on the outer roadway in most cases. Anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes (Terminal 3) to get from the bus stop to the actual terminal. Call it 1:05 from the time they got off train.
The Airtrain passenger arrives at Jamaica at 0:17. Up an elevator, over and then down an elevator to the Airtrain platform. Call it 3 minutes (it was 0 at RVC -- which is generous). Airtrain to Jamaica will run every 12 minutes during times of lowest demand, so an average of 6 minutes waiting time plus 8 minutes travel time (remember, it is only 5 miles -- it just seems like 50 when you're on the Van Wyck) to the first terminal. Means that the arrival time is, on average, 0:34 -- at times when AirTrain is at it's least frequent.
That's a 30 minute savings, something for which I'm more than willing to pay $5. Especially if the ride is on an M-7 and what looks like some nice equiptment on the Airtrain. LI Bus ran their usual equiptment on the Flyer, which made it all the more uncomfortable. (Someone mentioned that they ran special equiptment, but that was not the case).
CG
I've taken it all of three times (round trips, to meet someone), and I could have sworn the buses were NOT the standard coaches. I remember luggage racks, at least. And not the standard bench seating but padded seats. And I see what you're saying regarding timing. Obviously, the JFK Flyer wasn't for the time-sensitive. Still useful, though. Ahh well.
That's possible. The Q30 bus I took one day last year was an RTS bus, only with padded luxury seating like you find on MCI coaches, and a raised platform, in place of the standard NYC bus arrangement. I don't remember luggage racks, though.
Nice bus for local service!
CG
Yeah, but do they know the MDBF for every type of engine?
:0)
Back in the 80's, I would occasionally catch a 3800-series bus with padded seats on the M18 (now M86).
Where I would usually get on (traveling from Bayside/Oakland Gardens along the Horace Harding, toward Jamaica) there were anywhere from a handful to a dozen people on board, sometimes more. A few blocks later the school crowds would board, or the shoppers. Invariably the bus was always full by the time we reached the IND 169 St station, and then a lot of people would get off there, the rest heading for Jamaica Avenue shops and/or the LIRR or Archer Av subway.
CG
I think the jury is still out on the easier and faster until we see how easy the transfer at Jamaica is. If current projections hold (an admitedly huge if), once your LIRR train arrives at Jamaica, you should be at the first terminal in an average of 17 minutes (3 minutes to get to AirTrain, 6 minute max avg waiting time, 8 minutes to the first passenger terminal).
That means 42 minutes from Hicksville to JFK terminals, 33 minutes from Mineola and 60 minutes from Huntington. If you can beat those times with consistency on the roads, I don't think that it's by much. If the physical transfer at Jamaica is relatively pain-free, I think you'll see a meaningful change in the way LIers get to JFK.
CG
Also, I think you're underestimating the time the transfer will kill. Are the elevators as large as the AirTrains? If not, you may have to let the elevator pass two or three times before you can fit. (Ever try to use the elevator to get out of 63/Lex?)
We'll see what happens.
Exactly. Once it opens, we'll have to do a SubTalk field trip for those of us who've been debating this thing forever can see how it all works in practice.
CG
Hopefully more than one!
Suggestion:If you explain your purpose, perhaps the PA will grant you permission to do some limited photography - or allow you to borrow their images (or some combination of that).
I've made it to JFK from Medford, well into Suffolk County, in just under an hour. As you might imagine, that was at a very early hour on a Sunday when traffic was very light. It's usually necessary to allow for at least 90 minutes, two hours to be safe.
Rockville Center is not home to a majority of Long Islanders. That's like saying David ZGreenberger is like a majority of New Yorkers (and you know in your heart that is true, isn't it?)
:0)
It works well, and sees very heavy ridership.
JFK was built as an airport city with many terminals. Many of the riders of airtrain have no interest in going to manhattan by mass tranist. They want to get to the parking lots or car rental places.
If regualar NYCT trains would operate directly to the terminals there would be a few problems
1)Not as many trains as needed to handle the riders AT TIMES WHERE FLIGHTS ARRIVE AND DEPART. Rush hour for airports does not neccessarily time up with rush hour for NYCT. Additional ATO controled airtrain service can be added during periods when arrivials and departures increase. These peiods are often 1 to 2 hour chunkes at various parts of the day. This would be terrible expensive with NYCT current 2 mn crews with gaurenteed shifts
2)Length of airtrain plarforms. There is no room for 600 ft subway platforms at the airport. The platform at the new international arrivals building looked quite short when I viewed it last summer
3)Delays or blockages downline on nyct subway lines will also effect riders inside the airport who are just looking to go to another terminal(passengers looking to transfer from international to domestic flights often have to got o a differnt terminal)
4) NYCT is still using antiquated train control methods operated by expensive 2 person human crews driving up operating costs.
5)Who would pay for the construction. The FTA rules that airport user fees could not be spend on enhancements of off airport projects that riders not using the airports would bennifit from.
6)Secutity issues. Riders boaring airport service could have boarded anywhere making it harder to track suspicious people entering the airport. How would you handle the homeless man with all his life's belongings with him. He would have to be stoped and seached adding addtional security and scutany. Airtrain allows you to check riders, possible puting them through airport sceening prior to entrering airtrrain ensuring that no bomb go off on the trains as these trains enter terminals.
MTA owned a ROW (or a ROW easement, etc.) of one track leading into the airport from Howard Beach, and chose not to use it. Ultimately it was left to the PA to build an airport connector, and they did.
La Guardia is small enough so that the subway could serve it directly.
Most service would be on the airport circulator; only a fraction would run up the A line.
Some of this circulator service could be provided by A train crews. For instance, one crew might take an A train from 207th to JFK in the morning rush and spend the rest of the shift on the airport loop.
There could be additional airport-only service using half-length trains, if necessary.
2)Length of airtrain plarforms. There is no room for 600 ft subway platforms at the airport. The platform at the new international arrivals building looked quite short when I viewed it last summer
Let each station serve two adjacent terminals. This would also reduce construction expenses (one 600-foot station is cheaper than two 300-foot stations) and speed up service. Airport passengers don't care if the train connects to the middle of the terminal or to one end.
3)Delays or blockages downline on nyct subway lines will also effect riders inside the airport who are just looking to go to another terminal(passengers looking to transfer from international to domestic flights often have to got o a differnt terminal)
Not if most of the service never leaves the airport at all.
4) NYCT is still using antiquated train control methods operated by expensive 2 person human crews driving up operating costs.
See above. Half-length airport-only trains can be OPTO. They don't even have to be run by NYCT.
5)Who would pay for the construction. The FTA rules that airport user fees could not be spend on enhancements of off airport projects that riders not using the airports would bennifit from.
An extension of the A line to JFK is only of benefit to JFK passengers, employees, and visitors.
6)Secutity issues. Riders boaring airport service could have boarded anywhere making it harder to track suspicious people entering the airport. How would you handle the homeless man with all his life's belongings with him. He would have to be stoped and seached adding addtional security and scutany. Airtrain allows you to check riders, possible puting them through airport sceening prior to entrering airtrrain ensuring that no bomb go off on the trains as these trains enter terminals.
The exact same security issues apply to arrivals at the airport by car and to any other subway line. Cars aren't searched when they enter airport property.
I see the posts about AirTrain haven't gotten any less useless and non-informative either.:0)
Of course, the Jamaica leg of Airtrain was to open later. Maybe the whole thing will open complete on one day. Otherwise, try the PA website to see what's new.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/
Bill "Newkirk"
I really find that hard to believe. If they really do take MetroCard, especially unlimited MetroCards, then I will take back some of the bad stuff I have said about this project. If it is a free transfer with the MetroCard (such as a subway to bus) then I will take back almost ALL of the bad things I have said about this project.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
:0)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Except that even the AirTrain itself doesn't work on AirTrain yet.
Please email to radio88@radio88.net directly. Thanks in advance for helping Transit and Weather Together.
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
That is absolutly UNTRUE!!!!!!!!! I saw a report on a 20/20 type show on one of the major networks where a smart guy took swabs from a stairwell handrail and from a subway strap and analyzed them back in his lab and he found no higher amount of germs than any other non-toilet place.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
That's never a bad idea, and if you work in food service, you are required to.
Think of the cash you collect during the week. Where have thpose dollar bills been (especially the old ones). Yet somehow, between forking over a $10 bill that might have been in someone's mouth several people ago, to pay for lunch and then eating a pastrami sandwich, you haven't dropped dead yet.
Bottom line: It's not time to panic.
You may want to try Dr Brown's Celery Tonic instead of Cream Soda. I've always found it to be the perfect complement to delicatessen food. Besides, it will taste antiseptic enough to rid you of SARS.
The current product is a pale comparison of the old. Then again, I might be getting old, if I can remember when opening up a brown colored bottle of Celery Tonic would make the entire delicatessen smell like celery. I'm definitely getting old, if I remember that happening at Sussman-Volk or Weitzman's on Delancy St.
Take one mouthful and a shot of good Kentucky Rye is necessary to wash the foul taste out of your mouth. :)
All seriousness aside (Three points extra if you know the source of that remark), Our (BSM) Director of Restoration used to drink it back in the swinging 60's. Even he said it was pretty rank. None of us would even try it.
The one and only one since 1869.
Our (BSM) Director of Restoration used to drink it back in the swinging 60's. Even he said it was pretty rank. None of us would even try it.
You need not have worried. It was pretty well watered down by the swinging 60's. You should have tried it. It was quite refreshing.
OTOH, perhaps our Boston readers can tell me if Durgin Park still has spruce gum. Now that is definitely an acquired taste. Their source was some farmer in Kennebunkport Maine. Perhaps the Seashore contingent has used it for other purposes. :-)
For one, what do you think is holding the SOAC cars together?
However, people are NOT dropping like flies on the subway.
Don't worry so much.
-Robert King
However the union station renovations are not being demolished so maybe when $ becomes available service can ve restored.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
The top pic I'm not too sure about. I think at one time both platforms were being used. There was another booth on that platform. But I'm talking about years ago.
My photo, the first one, was taken about 1990. IIRC, the platform on the right was not in use at that time. In fact, there wasn't even track.
I meant to post this one...should always check the preview.....
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Shhhhhhhh!!!!!! Maybe we should rename that street "Empire Blvd".....
The fatal S-curve was not an original feature of the line. It had recently been installed where the southbound shuttle track had to move out of the way of the new connection (still under construction) from Prospect Park to DeKalb Avenue. It's that new connection that rendered the shuttle a shuttle. Southbound shuttle trains continued to run over the S-curve until, IIRC, the 60's, and they still do during occasional GO's (e.g., for three days in 2001 when the northbound platform was closed for construction).
-Stef
The first certain operation of steel cars on the shuttle was with the inauguration of Franklin-Nassau service in 1924, though I have seen at least one secondary or tertiary source which says some steel cars ran with the inauguration of shuttle service in 1920--I have my doubts about this but will not dismiss it out of hand.
All wooden equipment didn't give up Franklin service (and the fatal curve) until 1927, nearly nine years after Malbone Street.
The Dual Contracts provided for the gradual elimination of wooden equipment. The Malbone wreck added to the hue and cry to speed up the elimination. The final elimination of wooden cars underground took place not in the Hylan Administration but in Jimmy Walker's. The final runs of wooden equipment in most tunnel situations took place in 1927, when wooden cars were finally pulled from the Brighton-Franklin (as in Malbone Street tunnel) and in the Centre Street Loop.
Still, BUs ran through (or into after 1940) 9th Avenue Lower Level until 1954, if you consider that "subway."
The decision to not allow passengers to be carried underground at all appears to have been an administrative one. Can't give you a firm date.
Interesting. Is that why center of the station shifts at that end? I assume that is where the center tracks were supposed to originally go, and what also makes any realignment (ala Canal Street) impossible between Fulton and Chambers.
Alot of things seem to have been planned for the entire loop.
The Brooklyn Bridge itself seems to be the weakpoint of it all:
The Manhattan side was to have 2 tracks to the Centre St loop and 2 tracks to the Park Row Terminal.
The Brooklyn side of course had both the Fulton St and Myrtle Av trunk lines coming in.
If only the Bridge were 4-tracked!
That routing wasn't possible without a reverse move. The line was called Centre Street Loop because of the anticipated connection with the Brooklyn Bridge, which was never completed.
In my memory ('50s='60s) what was properly the Nassau Street Loop was sometimes referred to as the Centre Street Loop. though incorrectly.
Peace,
ANDEE
1918
There were a few other events of note in 1918. On November 11 an armistice (cease-fire) was signed bringing the Great War to an end.
The 7 Avenue Line opened from Times Square to South Ferry on July 1.
The Lexington Avenue Line was opened from Grand Central to 149 Street on July 17.
THe H System was made complete on August 1,1918 when two silver spikes are driven into the express tracks at Grand Central.
Larry, RedbirdR33
--Mark
CC: If you're planning a trip to the United States proper why don't you post the date on this board when you're plans are final? You might find a lot of friends willing to meet you.
Larry, RedbirdR33
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
I'd hate for "lightning to strike" and you to have a bad experience when I said it was safe, but I haven't seen the threat.
As to the shuttle's condition, yes, there isn't too much BRT or BMT evident, if you don't know what you're looking at. If you have an antiquarian's soul, there's a lot more. And there's a lot of original BF&CI between Park Place and Malbone Empire Blvd. And you can still read the sign on the side of Consumer's Park Brewery.
The "new" stations have been done in a varierty of styles. WHy not read BMTman's paean to the line and tell us if it changes your mind.
Awww, man. C'mon already with that. I mean, sheesh. Bro, take the A train....at p.m. rush hour. Get off at Franklin and TAKE THE DAMN SHUTTLE! Swing down the rails into Prospect Park. This is an historic route, still in existence. Never mind the rebuild. The way the line cuts through this thickly populated district is alone worth the experiencing of. I hear you expressing regret about all the trains and lines gone into just memories. Well, the Franklin Shuttle is a Living Memory. You don't have to bitch about how you miss the line. Here's a way you can make a kind of direct connection with someone alive 75 years ago, going about their daily life. Think about how the "millions" passed down that very path on the way to the beach. This don't sound intriguing?
Just go where you want to go. Don't be afraid, man. Don't make "dem strangers" the enemy. Ride the trains like a man, and don't even think about it. Else you're a prisoner....of life.
But I agree that it's definitely worth a ride. It's perfectly safe.
Heh, forgot that for a second. Thanks. Well, this way he gets to experience changing at Hoyt-Schermerhorn for the local. Another station worth seeing.
Paul: Well we will know where to find BMT Man that day. We should bring a lot of candles.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Most of the areas surrounding the Franklin Shuttle have gotten quite a bit better in recent years. I'd say there's no risk during the day and very little at night.
CCLocal: the area is safe for railfanning...enjoy a ride on the ORIGINAL Brighton line!
Seriously, folks ... the Frankie is ALWAYS a treat, even with the psychedelic foamer glass. And if you're lucky enough to find Unca Dougie on the line (does he ever LEAVE it?), the sidetrips of the brewery, the Heinz plant location, the abandoned trolley poles and all else (including the remains of "Consumer Park station") are absolutely WORTH it ...
Seriously, bro ... I always loved the line - the highlights you pointed out that I never noticed made it like the very first time! :)
Heh ... 85 years ago this November, Consumer's Park station was pretty much the LAST thing 100 people ever saw.
Train late? Would you rather get to your stop DEAD? Geese never understood the border of that. They just whined about the delay or the train being slow. Whoops. Still happens. :)
If you're right with yourself, and you're right with everyone else, nobody's gonna bother ya.
"Gangstas" only go after those willing to play the game. If you're not into playing the game, you're no fun and you can't dance. They look for someone more willing to play. In all my years in the city, the most THREATENING people I ever encountered were WHITE. Sorry for putting it this way, but folks here who know me personally know where I'm coming from.
Sorry to say, you got chased because you ran. Dogs chase things that bolt. So do cops. So do crims. :)
You are comparing conditions to 1996 than to the conditions now. Since the complete rebuild of the Franklin Ave Shuttle (formerly Franklin Shuttle) ridership has nearly doubled, rush hour is at near capacity (even with BOTH cars), and the area in Crown Heights has improved with some new housing in some areas. I would not say it's the safest area at 3 in the morning, but as a person who sees no color boundaries to anyone, I simply ride the shuttle on a daily basis (I am caucasian). And I meet some really nice people in the area too, thank God you were unharmed by those punks.
You really should spend a day in Brooklyn, explore the Zoo at Prospect Park, take in flowers at the Botanic Garden, see some artwork at the Brooklyn Museum, get a taste for some Islamic food and culture at Fulton st. All this within walking distance of the Shuttle.
Interpret please. Does that mean almost all seats taken? Or almost all standing room taken as well?
You are the only one who didn't recommend the trip.
The renovation has made the shuttle more historic. The Franklin Avenue and Park Place stations were rebuilt to look like the BMT had built them, they are not modern in their styling st all. Franklin Avenue was also the first station in the system to sport stained glass, since used at Myrtle Avenue/Broadway and the 7 local stops along Queens Blvd (33,40,46).
--Mark
Using R68's with fixed rollsigns (only the Shuttle information is present), the ride from PP to Franklin is 3 quick stops, improved stations (Park Place and Franklin Ave are both ADA compliant, Propspect Park will soone be ADA also, if they get their dume a** and remove the barriers to the elevators at the south end; Lincoln Rd side., will be the new 24/7 full time entrance) of the station.
A quick look (but I told you to look in the Franklin Shuttle page in Dave's website.)
Botanic Garden: Bright station, with indoor passageway at N/B side to IRT Franklin Ave station.
Park Place: Single platform on west side, with new control house by old basketball courts, and new ramp to Prospect Place (1 block south of original dingy entrance), serving Interfaith Medical Center
Some remains of Dean Street still exist, station demolished.
Franklin Ave: No more going outside to contend with drug addicts to catch the IND train underground. New control house, along with two elevators, an escalator, and three new staircases will take you either (a: downstairs to main entrance and a second staircase to the Euclid/Rockaways bound platform. OR b: Crossing bridge over Fulton Street, then long set of staircases to Manhattan-bound platform.)
Whatever you do in your next visit to New York City, just save the Sea-Beach line for last.
Before the fisticuffs between you and Fred commence, I just wanted to say that the first time I met #4 Sea Beach Fred, I dragged him on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. We took the "long way" from Penn Station to Coney Island!
1) No railfan window.
2) Trains run slow, I'd estimate 20 MPH at best.
3) Trains are short and crowded with passengers transferring between Fulton, Brooklyn and Brighton lines.
4) Service is terrible. What makes it worse is the train has a limit of I think 5 MPH entering Fulton, and after the long wait for the train to come you have to sit there and stare at it while it crawls into the station. And if it's rush/peak dir you better be standing at the front of the line on the platform or you won't get a seat, or even a spot at the door-windows, in fact you'll be lucky if you even get a pole to hang onto.
On a lighter note, I do like the new Park Place station. The old platform as I recall it seemed like the second worst in the system (Chambers/Centre is worst).
As far as I can tell from the windows most of the Botanic Garden station is gone, except for what looks more like an emergency exit than a station, it's so incredibly short, just enough to hold the 150' trains. But at least the transfer to the Brooklyn/New Lots/Flatbush lines is convenient. I have used it several times. Just don't understand why they had to cut the platforms in half...
ANd while we are comparing trains. WHat is the difference between R68 and R68A?
Check it out here!
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
BTW, Are you new?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
On those pages, the only difference I see is that they were built by differend builders, and in the case of the R68s, have much different numbers.
The R62A seems to have some different mechanics.
But are there any physical characteristics, that make them all look different, like the R44 to R46, have slightly different exteriors (where the stripe was), and the plexiglass in the doorways.
Or the modified R40 or R42, have the dent under the windows.
However, the R62-R62A, and the R68A-R69 remind me of the R27-R30 - I can not tell them apart.
--Joe
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
As a bit of background: all R-62's, R-62A's, R-68's, and R-68A's were originally built as single units. All R-62's and most R-62A's (except for the ones needed for the shuttle and for the 3, which at the time ran nine-car trains) were reconfigured in the late 90's into five-car sets; all R-68A's and most R-68's (except for nine cars assigned to the Franklin Avenue shuttle) were reconfigured in the late 90's into four-car sets.
On to some of the differences you'll notice. First R-62 vs. R-62A:
R-62 floors are black; R-62A floors are beige.
R-62's have exterior speakers.
R-62's have one-line destination signs and R-62A's have two-line destination signs, though there's some crossover here.
R-62's have openable windows across from the cabs and have latches to keep the storm doors open. (These features were removed from non-operating positions on the R-62A's.)
R-62's seem a bit dimmer to me.
The conical brackets that mount the handrails to the ceiling have a slightly matte texture on the R-62. They're smooth on the R-62A.
(More?)
On to R-68 vs. R-68A:
The R-68 cab door swings in. The R-68A cab door slides.
The R-68A has sharper edges on the side signbox. It's also a bit darker.
When you enter the car, look at the handrail at around waist height. Follow it until it meets the vertical pole. If there's a mounting bracket, you're on an R-68; if there's a seamless connection, you're on an R-68A. (But if you look up, you'll find a mounting bracket on both the R-68 and the R-68A. Yet both of these connections are seamless on the R-62 and R-62A alike.)
(More?)
Incidentally, you mention the R-40M and R-42. I don't know why people have trouble telling them apart. Sure, their exteriors are similar, but their interiors are totally different. The R-42's have much more exposed metal and don't have the atrocious three-piece R-40 signbox. They also don't have the atrocious R-40 seat.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
How many more R142s still have to come into the system?
R46 at C.I.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
R46 at C.I.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Da Beastmaster
Da Beastmaster
How So? I see the flag on the R68 yellow Q cars. I say this pic may been taken sometime during 9/11 emergency reroute.
til next time
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
So, the photo is ultra-recent and this is in a shop. Anything can happen.
OTOH, a few years ago(maybe a little more but no more than 8 years), you could see R-46 Qs every night. This didn't last very long but, the F would turn to a Q at Bway/Laf. late nights, and went to 21 St./Queensbridge. I remember the sign at Bway/Laf. (or maybe 2 Ave.), near the 10-car stop, saying "Change sign to Q". I think they changed the sign at 47/50 when going southbound. As changing the rear sign would be too much of a hassle, trains had F sign on one end and Q on the other for the rest of their trip to each terminal.
Most likely in the early/mid 90s the F served the 63rd St. line late nights (to Queensbridge). During those hours, the G or R served Hillside to 179 St. They shuffled the G and R a few times(I think).
Later, the Q late night shuttle between Queensbridge and Bway/Laf was run as I mentioned in an earlier post.
They changed front signs at Bway/Laf and 47/50 Rock but was really an F.
Second Ave. was not used regularly to turn trains until the B late night shuttle came back(The previous Manhattan B shuttle was run between 57/6 and Rock). That B shuttle ran between Queensbridge and Second Ave. until the closure of the Manny bridge north tracks, at which point the Grand st. shuttle between Queensbridge and Grand St. was introduced.
Odd balls on 63rd st. line included things like:
Evening: JFK Express only(no extra fare between Rock and Queensbridge). The Q running daytime and the F running late nights
Shuttle to 57/7 or 34/bway via 7th Ave.
to mention a few.
This was done because during this time, the "B" ran to 168 St weekdays from 6am to 12 am. The "F" ran to 179 St weekdays (as well as weekends) from 6am to 1 am. So that left the hours of 9pm - 1am that 57th St (and or thru to 21 St) was not serviced by either the "B" or "F". Therefore, it was ONLY during these hours they ran this "Q" Shuttle I described above. Whatever operated on the "Q" also operated on the Shuttle (R32s, R42s and R68s).
After 1am, regardless of what the maps and signs in the subway stated, it was the "F" and ONLY the "F" that operated to 57 St-6 Av (21 st after 1989). Sometimes, on nb trains ONLY, you would see the orange "Q" circle on the front rollsign on the first car. The rest of the train would read either "F" or "F/Q" (side rollsigns). This was practiced for a very short time. Once the R46s completed GOH, the digital signs didn't permit the "F/Q" display, so I guess this is why the practice was stopped.
As for R46s operating on the "Q", it has been done pre 9/11. During the winter of 1992/93, we had a brutal winter. The TA claimed that they were having a hard time charging R46s due to the cold weather, so as a result, for approximately six weeks, the "E" and "F" swapped equipment-the "E" was mostly R46s, the "F" were mostly R32s. Also, during this time period, 2 or 3 R46s did indeed find their way to the "B" and the "Q".
As far as the R46s on the "B" and "Q", I remember the ERA recorded these sightings in their Bulletin. If and I do mean "IF" I can find one from that time period, I will try to scan a copy.
Isn't that what I stated?
#3 West End Jeff
When a train is in a maintenance shop, the signs often get changed around. Nothing big.
#3 West End Jeff
Subdivision C of NYCTA will be sponsoring two special excursion train weekends utilizing some of the cars norrmally found in the NYC Transit Museum. These trains will operate on June 7th (Saturday) and 8th (Sunday) and on June 28th (Saturday) and June 29th (Sunday), featuring R1/9 equipment as well as a vintage IRT SMEE train made up of R12, R15, R17 and R33 equipment. This will be a rare opportunity to ride and photograph these cars as they will be returned to the Transit museum after the June 29th trip.
The vintage IRT SMEE cars will be operating on June 7th and June 28th from Grand Central Shuttle track #1 at 10:30 AM. The IND R1/9 cars will be operated on June 8th and June 29th, leaving from the Chambers Street Station of the J Line at 10:30 AM. Each trip will be taking differnt routes. Join us in supporting the March of Dimes. Fares are $35 per trip for adults and $20 per trip for children under 13. Day of trip tickets, if available, are an additional $5 extra.
Checks or money orders are to be made payable to 'March of Dimes.'
Tickets are available by mail from:
NYCT Subdivision C - M.O.D. Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room # 221
Bronx, New York 10461
Telephone inquiries to:
1-347-643-5310
PLEASE enclose stamped, self addressed envelope when ordering tickets.
MARK your calenders and make your decisions. Revenue obtained goes to
medical research for wiping out the latest in discovered disease. I hope to make at least one of these trips to say hello to my friends.
CI Peter, 180/239th 'troubles crew.'
'Attention in the barn. Attention in the barn. This is Inspector Murricane. Please give a hearty 239th and 180th WELCOME to my friends on this NYCTA March of Dimes excursion run. The trip is for a good cause and I'm proud to bring my friends to my home.' CI peter
The earliest one that I can think of is at Ditmas Ave/Coney Island on the IND extension to the Culver Line.
I considered the 1939 World's Fair tracks but rejected a possibility as the only BMT line nearby was Jamaica. (At least the Van Wyck went under the elevated tracks of the Jamaica line.)
thanks.
Maybe a better idea to have them as part of an NYC exhibit...not as a monorail. Not worth the effort. "IF ANYTHING", better to have them run on the "RAILS" that the disney World steam train runs on... =)
I'd question whether the Seattle monorail is really a transit system as opposed to a tourist attraction. Yes, monthly commuter tickets are available, but I really can't think of many people who'd use it for commuting.
As for the monorails themselves, they're genuine 1962 ALWEG original, one of a kind, the only Alweg monorails still running. The big difference between the Redbirds and the Alwegs is that the Alwegs have been meticulously maintained over their fourty year lifespans, that, and they are stainless steel construction, perfect for long life (plus I'm sure that the "Fine German BMW engineering" helped:) ). When the monorail was finally given to the city for like 500,000 dollars, ALWEG was swiftly heading for bankruptcy, and it gave ALL the engineering papers, every blueprint to the city of Seattle to maintain it. According to a Monorails.org special report, "new trains could EASILY be fabricated and an entire system could be built from these blueprints."
Of course Seattle is moving ahead with their plans to create a new monorail line, the Green Line. Running from the northwest area down 15th to the city, then past the Stadiums in SODO, and out over the West Seattle Causeway into West Seattle with a future connection to the WSF ferry terminal at Fauntleroy, it should provide a much needed rapid transit line for the city of Seattle. Of course the Seattle Center Monorail's track along Fifth Ave was to be torn out, or at least used by the new monorails, replacing the 1962 models with newer ones, possibly relegating the 1962 monorails to a 1.2 mile line along the original ROW as a 3rd track. Possibly in a move by NIMBY's along other parts of the route, namely 5th ave south of Westlake Center, the original Seattle Monorail has been awarded landmark status, which means that it must remain as it currently appears, and it cannot be torn down. I'm still not sure how to take this, since it would appear that it blocks a desperately needed, and very deserving project from being completed. Hopefully a 2nd Ave (which will get done first, NYC's SAS or SEA's SAM?)or 4th ave alignment will be chosen, with free connections at some point to the Seattle Center monorail (a kind of historical shuttle).
OH, and did I mention that this thing has a friggin Greenhouse Railfan Window?
And yes, you can sit on the bench seat to the right of the M/O (driver? T/O?).
Everyone says it rains all the time in Seattle, but every time I go there (week at a time, twice a year) I see nothing but sunshine.
I think they like to tell all the outsiders it rains constantly there just to keep them all from moving into that beautiful city.
Exactly like Penn Station.
Darn...
Lyle Lanley:Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine...
Bona fide...
Electrified...
Six-car Monorail!
...What'd I say?
Ned Flanders:Monorail!
Lyle Lanley:What's it called?
Patty+Selma:Monorail!
Lyle Lanley:That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover:I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley:It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu:Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley:Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney:What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley:You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe:Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley:No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum:The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley:Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All:Monorail!
Lyle Lanley:What's it called?
All:Monorail!
Lyle Lanley:Once again...
All:Monorail!
Marge:But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart:Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All (except Homer):Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer:Mono... D'oh!
I was there in 1985, 1986 and there was a red train and a blue train. And the past ten years or so, they've been basic white.
But there's a television commercial shown regularly up there (for a drug store chain, of all things) and they showed the rainbow-ed monorails. The cars below did look slightly older, so I had a feeling it was around the time you mentioned.
The controls are EXACTLY like those in NYCTA subway cars from the 60's!! Same deadman handle, same brake handle, same reverser...and the same sounds emanating from all the controls.
The only thing different is the horn...it's a foot button, and does not sound like NYCTA!!
It could be a cultural museum. This is: 74th/Jackson Heights. Exit here for the Little Korea exhibit. Next stop is Hispanic Town, stand clear of the closing doors.
The 7 should keep a small fleet of R36's. These cars are historic, they are synonymous with the 7 train (and Queens), and are more well known than the ugly R-62A's. Therefore, vistors riding the 7 will get to see these historic landmarks of Queens they've seen on TV and in books rather having all of them gone forever.
David
By the way, did this bridge even have a name? And when was the draw converted into a fixed bridge?
Thanks a mil.
Jimmy
Name: Stillwell Avenue
Crossing: Coney Island Creek
Type: Fixed
Tracks: 4
Length: 266 feet
Opened: April 18,1971.
The original bridge had two tracks and I believe but can't say for certain that it was probably movable at one time because Coney Island Creek was open to navigation years ago. I don't believe that in later years (1960's) that it ever opened. There was a half sunk old tugboat called the CAMBRAI tied up on the west side of the bridge for many years. It was removed when the new bridge was built.
Maybe some of the Brooklyn boys could provide more information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I also believe it became a fixed bridge at the same time the span was redone in 1971. Is it really a four track bridge? Or was the original bridge simply fixed and doubled?
I can't lay my hand on the details right now but I believe that a two track bridge(actually a trestle ) was built adjacent to the old bridge and service was shifted to the new structure. The old bridge was then removed and replaced by a second two track trestle.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Just as a historical curiosity, there were two stations that were prominently signed CONEY ISLAND when the BMT signage was still around. The second was W8, which was prominently signed CONEY ISLAND with west 8th street below in smaller letters.
Paul: You're right. I remember the 1961 Subway Map identifying stations as WEST 8 ST
(Coney Island)
and CONEY ISLAND
(Stillwell)
I remember thinking to myself what or who was Stillwell?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Robert
Larry, RedbirdR33
and this:
and this:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
And if you would have taken that today that clock would have said 7:32 P.M.
And if you would have taken that today that clock would have said 7:32 P.M.
(I HAD TO FIX THE TYPO....)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
What does she remember?
The rats on the Canarsie line!
What's up with that?
In the A division, garbage train T/O's sign-on at 239 Yard at about 9pm and clear at 630 or 7am the next day. On weekdays, the hours are slightly less grueling because we have to be off the road and back in the yard to make way for rush-hour service. I don't know much about the B division, but the few times I've checked their sheets, I saw jobs titled, "Refuse relief", which is some sort of relief job for the guys on the garbage train. People have told me that those garbage train jobs in the B division have little or no OT these days.
#3 West End Jeff
(then they's Shriners) ...
#3 West End Jeff
Hey CC what you opinion of a model Slant r40 in N scale ?????
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
NO-RAC, NOR-AC?
Ack like you're coughing up a hairball.
No-rack?? That's a gal with a flat chest.
The first instance was on September 5,1970 when R-16 6382 in the middle of a group of IRT cars rodeup the ramp from the IND Concourse Yard onto the IRT Jerome Avenue Line. The crew then reversed direction and took the train into the IRT Jerome Avenue Yard. The crew of a regular #4 reported damage to the platform and a signal knocked over.
In the second case IND R-10 3226 was on the operating end of a train of IRT cars that again ran from the Concourse Yard up onto the Jerome Avenue Line and then wrong railed to the IRT Jerome Avenue Line. This was on March 6,1971 and the R-10 remained in the IRT Yard from about 5AM to 11AM. After visting its IRT cousins R-10 3226 returned to the IND.
So if anyone ever asks you if R-10's and R-16's ran on the IRT the answer is yes.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Any platform damage when wrong railing ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Larry, RedbirdR33
a frend from CI called me and told me that there are 6 pairs of "salnts" came in this morning and the will be stripped for parts before the end of the week an then they will be scraped i did not ge the # sorry i got the info froma relible sourse !
SLANT
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Adam
Adam
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
But that does not apply to two sets of Slants on the forget witch numbers.
instead of : But that does not apply to two sets of Slants on the forget witch numbers
this : But that does not apply to two sets of Slants on N the forget witch numbers
#3 West End Jeff
On the R142A's it does.
Heh heh, we'll have to ask OnTheJuice for his opinion :)
(Explanation: "Juicing" is weightlifting slang for using 'roids, which of course isn't to imply that he uses them)
wayne
I wonder whatever became of that creek?
Larry, RedbirdR33
There is a pretty little creek running nearby to my in-law's home near Philadelphia. I asked her dad where it ended up. He said it just "disappeared" near the City Line--i.e., it now travels through sewer pipes under the city to the Schuylkill or Delaware or wherever.
I suspect Hubbard's Creek has had a similar fate, or (if the ground was stable enough) it might have just been filled in.
On topic--do you know that the Brighton Cut is drained by a huge storm sewer that goes all the way over to Ocean Avenue?
Paul: I didn't know that but it makes sense. The BMT had to be very foresighted when they built that otherwise the Brighton cut itself would be one long river.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Tuesday through Thursday (April 8-10), 5PM - 9PM
Saturday and Sunday (April 12-13), noon - 5PM
For more information and to read some reviews, click here.
I plan on being there on each of these days in case you want a guided tour, to ask questions, or just to say "Hi".
Then I'll start hand selecting equipment. Can anyone find for this IRT man, the following:
A Playmate for 6688
A Modern Day Work Motor
A Little Red (or Yellow) Diesel That Could
Garbage Flats With Trash Bins
Dolly
And a Station Booth that sells tokens?
Anything else?
Give me a IRT Homeball and little furry creatures that say hi. That'll really make my day!
I better get some ZZZs.
I'm getting together with John S. for Round Two of BERA Adventures on Wed.
-Da Station Agent
6609?
A Modern Day Work Motor
Enough of those to pick from...
A Little Red (or Yellow) Diesel That Could
Half the SBK fleet?
Garbage Flats With Trash Bins
To park by the picnic grove
Dolly
With the Redbirds on the ends, of course
And a Station Booth that sells tokens?
See Work Motors above
Anything else?
Give me a IRT Homeball
Settle for a WD?
and little furry creatures that say hi. That'll really make my day!
That's the ¾ Ton Crew!
-Stef
-Stef
8-) ~ Sparky
What's a matter, you no want to sell Branford tokens at "Avenue EL"? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Sorry about ruining Thurston's fun by telling him the turnstile in residence was a classic IND "Exit ONLY" type. Whoops. They CAN be converted, batteries not included. All ya needs is a slot stand to reject (umm, err "accept") tokens ... umm ... err ... nickels, dimes, ofays and kilos.
OK ... what's your excuse for not being a member of ShoreLine (Branford, CT) Museum? Know what's sitting up there WAITING for ya? Arnine #1689 (WONDERFULLY restored), LoV 5466 from the Third Avenue El, several OTHER subway cars you grew up with (threw up with?) and trolleys out the wazoo ... but wait ... before we ask you "what would you NOW expect to pay?" you can actually manage HANDLE TIME and actually RUN the train of yesterday! Scwoo reminiscing ... actually BE a motorman!
www.bera.org
'word ... you need some. Better than ANYTHING you're smoking. Heh.
Alas, there's a world out there, they used to buy our stuff and pay my bills. Americans downloaded free qwap that didn't work, but our stuff required payment to keep me here doing it. That money came from France, Germany, Austria, New Zealand, China and other nations where people understood that if someone worked for you writing software and offering actual interest, someone had to pay the bills to keep them going. Alas, with the rest of the planet BOYCOTTING us because I live in "Shrubland," nada. :(
Anyhoo ... sure do want to somehow manage to get to meet the HiV ... never RAN one of THOSE. :)
GOTTA get something NEW ...
When you pay your admission, you get the approapriate token(s) from the cashier and depost it in the farebox or the conductors' hand, depending on the car. You then recieve a transfer, which enables unlimited rides.
Can't believe I forgot the "relay" trick. Shows ya what 30 years away from subway handles will do to a NYCTA short-timer. Heh. Then again, you were there to see MANY an embarassment on my part for all I'd forgotten and what I'd forgotten to LISTEN for. Heh. NEXT time I promise to get more than two hours sleep before waking up to operate.
I knew it! You have the whole thing in pieces in your basement, and you're looking for a place to assemble it! ;^)
Hey! How did you find out! :-)
-Stef
Of course, another first runner up would be the IRT "Mineola", though that could run into big bucks and take years to complete.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Stef
True statement Stef. I don't like it when I hear those who want us to acquire more subway cars, when there is still plenty of history waiting to be restored. I commend the recent restoration job of NOPS #850, also contributing some bux towards it. When #850 hits the rails, that should bring in those who are tired of riding the same old, same old at Branford. Yes, we need people who want to roll up their sleeves for #8111 just like #850. Let's hope a movement to resurrect #8111 from the cobwebs for a restoration takes place. I, like others would love to ride a Brooklyn "Peter Witt".
Bill "Newkirk"
My two cents is that you DO have to be selective because of the above, but if the item is unique enough then I would rather save it now and worry about the other stuff later, because when they are all cut up & made into something else it's too late.
Will 6688 get a playmate, that would be a hard sell at our small museum (even though my personal preference would see a World's Fair single arrive). If you look at the fleet roster you'll not find two of anything, except our Johnstown pair (356/357). Now 6688 is a St Louis product. A AFC Red Bird might be nice or a MOW (rider car/motor car) or Money Car or an older IRT R type. Down the road a few years a Slant 40 seems to be unique enough, but a pair ? That's why I've said a 40/38 combi might be a comprise, i.e. you would have a "pair", but get two unique items in the package. The rt guys don't mind the trolley pole on one end, so they might not yell to laud about a pair that's not exactly a prototype pair ?
Now, back to one of your points. I too echo Steff's & Sparky's remarks, i.e. all the stuff just sitting there waiting will stay that way until get more members & money. One of the items that many of the museums I'm familar with are getting into is serious begging of money from government agancies. That will help if it's not wasted. That's where to Board of a museum comes in to create & ensure a plan. If we waste it once, we won't get anymore :-(
Meanwhile, you, I and many of our friends at Branford are doing what we can to preserve & restore the current fleet. Saturday four of us will be trimming branches on the line so this Summer the rt cars trolley ropes don't catch them when come out one week-end each month.
Thurston, Don't you have 1349, 1362, 659, 1227 & 197? :-)
So, it would appear that even those many years ago when the above were acquired that they choose carefully.
Ya don't need four people to do that. Besides, that'll be TWO as you'll be getting 'bored'....and I don't now who the fourth person is (?)
I know I'm a railfan because....I have difficulty letting go of the R-17's brake handle! Gosh, do I have it bad. I think I'm a Redbird, because I start making all the sounds!
-Stef
Careful Steph - the TA might take you and sink you off the cost Virginia (or worse - New Jersey)
Those who are against the so-called "nitpickers" would rather than they always be wrong, think they are right, and never get called on the matter. I do not believe in such a world, and so, I will continue to be a "nitpicker."
If you're in so much pain, you should go to a doctor and not bring that pain here to Subtalk.
Yesterday I noticed how many postings CC Local had made, including several topics that he started (but several were not being answered due to the fact that the original post simply wasn't necessary). That is why I made my post to him. There are several times when he does post some relevant and interesting topics on here; it would be good to just see that instead. -Nick
If you say so :p
In any event, many online forums have their own set of "understood" rules that everyone obeys. If someone tries to come in and change those rules, or even defy them, they *will* be flamed like nobody's business. I'm not saying that it is ok to flame someone who doesn't like to follow the "unwritten" rules, but that's just the way the internet works. So my suggestion to all of you who enjoy to post many, many times per day, with most of those posts being *new topics* is to choose one of three paths:
1. Start following the established "unwritten" rules of SubTalk by changing your posting habits to be more in line with the rest of us, *or*
2. Continue posting as you have been, accept the fact that people will flame you up the wazoo, and just deal with it. Don't respond to the flames. Your responding isn't going to change a thing because *YOU* are the "new guys" coming in and violating *OUR* unwritten rules. We are going to enforce our rules. Your responses just cause more hatred. Let the people who want to hate you, hate you, and don't reply to their posts. -or-
3. Leave SubTalk. This should be an absolute last resort, and frankly, I don't see why it even has to be an option, because the first two choices above seem pretty reasonable. I only included it because people in the past have chosen the option of leaving, so it is a valid option.
I hope this helps you guys deal with this board and its members.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
It's fine if people don't want to respond, but for the record I don't hate anyone on this board. I was simply making a frank statement, and that was that. -Nick
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
CC local now you see my point !
if you are interested i could nme you his injuries ?
LOL
THE MODEL YOU SAW IS OUT OF BRASS
Yeah, right! Man, you are more full of crap than I originally thought. -Nick
-Stef
-Stef
But if i realy wanted to insult him I would breck his Ribs in person ! HAHA
Well arcing "catenary " here pussy pussy ! Here pussy pussy !
This will become so much fun when i will meet you in person !
I see you there !
By the way how old are you ?
I dont want to breack the body parts of a "Geezer" !
Vlad
ps good luck you will need it !
so you comming to brooklyn ?
Ps are a Cop
if you will hurt which is unlikely you wont make it home in one piace ! I think A you ither dont have The Guts OR B You were not planinning come any way to make look like an idiot !
And A little dietail im not a PUNK !
Not to burst your bubble or anything, but if you're that tall but weigh only 180#s, you don't have much muscle at all.
Dunno, if you're only 180 pounds at 6'5" your workouts aren't very effective. What I suspect you're doing is lifting light weights for a large number of reps. That's a big mistake that a lot of people make, especially women but many men too. You could lift light weights all day and it won't do anything except make your muscles tired. If you want to get big (and strong), you have to lift big. No other way about it.
Obligatory transit content: an ad for Michelob Ultra low-carb beer, seen in a lot of subway cars, shows a fit-looking young woman doing dumbbell rows with a 5-pound dumbbell. That's a totally wasted effort.
I can see two problems right away. First of all, you should not do the same weight exercise every day. Muscles need at least 48 hours rest time between workouts. 72 hours is even better. If you want to lift every day, do a "split routine," in which you work different parts of the body each day. For instance, I do a 3-day split, in which I do back and biceps one day, lower body the second day, and chest, shoulders and triceps the third day.
Second, benching 100 pounds is too little for a man, unless he's a rank beginner. At your weight, 135 or 145 pounds would be a good amount for regular workouts. Try working up to that amount over a couple of months.
'nuff said. :-) -Nick
WEll Nick ARE you also A Racist like A.C. ??????
if you are and you got anything againt muslims or especialy jews i would love to beat the hell out of you and A.C. !
Slant
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
OR
Your parents give you a trainset for Christmas, and you start crying because the D-Type Triplex are not among the cars in that trainset.
Or THEY start crying when they get the bill for the brass D-Type they bought you for Christmas
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
So don't rush it.
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Up until the Iraq war, I used to see several uniformed police officers at Flatbush Avenue terminal, but no security personnel (that I could detect anyway) on the trains themselves. Starting about 10 days ago, however, there's been at least one armed NY State trooper patrolling the trains I've been on (usually during the morning and evening rushes). Last Friday afternoon, I took the 4:32 out of Flatbush to Cedarhurst, and saw two heavily armed National Guardsmen, in full combat gear (fatigues and everything) on the platform at Valley Stream. After the train pulled in and the doors opened, these soldiers walked along the length of the train, peering intently into the windows, their fingers ON THE TRIGGERS of their M-16's.
What were they looking for? Why Valley Stream and not Jamaica? Has there been a threat of terrorism on the LIRR? Maybe its just the Far Rock line?
Two or three National Guard dudes have been on duty at Ronkonkoma station for the past couple of weeks. As far as I know, there haven't been any specific threats, just your typical paranoid bed-wetting cowardice.
No other stations on the main line seem to have Guardsmen on duty. Ronkonkoma may have been singled out because it's so busy, or possibly because it's used as a transfer point by airport passengers.
One idle thought occurred to me while waiting for the Greenport connection at Ronkonkoma the other day. Assuming there actually are any terrorists around (which I'm convinced is not the case, but let's just assume there are), one of them easily could "upgrade" from an ordinary pistol to an M-16 merely by sticking the pistol in a Guardsman's face and demanding the M-16; the Guardsman could scarcely do anything if there's a pistol pointing at him. Or a reasonably fit terrorist could just wrestle away a Guardsman's M-16; a weapon of that sort isn't much use at hand-to-hand range and most of the Guardsmen I've seen most definitely aren't Tank Abbot or Royce Gracie types, to say the least.
What TA needs is a Redbird weapons platform consisting of John Bulls smoothbore gun, some GE Mini-guns and a batch of 'Ma Dueces.' Operated, of course, by qualified Car Inspectors. Sidearms would be Colt M1911A1s Series 70 Mk.4, the last of the all steel 0.45s.
Do you mean the TA workers who stand guard when MVM's are opened? They do carry pistols.
The Guardsmen at Ronkonkoma station have clips in their M-16's; whether there are bullets in the clips, I don't know.
M-16s do not use clips, they use detachable magazines, and without a magazine, the M-16 does not look complete. It is probable that the M-16s carried by the guardsmen have empty magazines, but the guardsmen may have one or more full magazines with them. Typically there is very stringent control of ammunition, and the magazines they are carrying have some sort of seal on them to insure the same number of rounds are returned that were checked out.
Tom
This is a good thing, I feel. First, I doubt that the Defense Department wants to give Neil Young a chance to remake one of his hits, and second, it is good that the civilian authority be superior, not the military entity. Further, while I'm certainly no expert on firearms, I don't think that such high-powered weaponry is what close-range combat calls for. I would hope that all of this is not being done so that it is a gimmick to allay fear-What's next then? Parking a howitzer in Penn Station?
I agree with you, though I understand if a member of the Guard is concerned that a bad guy would be inclined to shoot first, seeing the M16, and the Guard member could not immediately shoot back in self-defense (more like dive for cover, try toget the clip into the gun and chamber a round - and hope and pray that a police officer saw it happen and is returning fire).
NYPD
NYPD (as Transit Bureau)
NY State Police
NJ State Police
CT State Police
MTA Police
National Guard
Nassau County PD
Suffolk County PD
NJ Transit Police
PAPD
Amtrak Police
PLUS all the towns and villages' departments whose jurisdictions include stations of either LIRR, MNRR or NJT!
That's a LOT of agencies. Many of them also enjoy "interoperability", for example an MTA Police officer assigned to the area around 125/Park is given an NYPD portable radio set to Zone 6. Again, most of this is to make the riding public feel "better".
The principal terror targets are all in Manhattan. I highly doubt Osama has his sights set on Bellmore or Valhalla, after all.
Extremely doubtful, seeing as he's been dead for over a year.
--Arthur C. Clarke
Although I am loath to call Osama a human being.
For those of you who want to memorialize the token, we have two tee shirts now for sale at the NY Transit Museum, and on my website
http://nycsubwayline.com
One has a big image of our final "Five Boro" token, with a sticker telling of it's story, and the other says "Token Required" which is done in glow in the dark ink, so it shows up in the dark like the emergency signs on trains.
Both are limited edition. We hope you like them!
Subway grrl
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Chicago, unfortunately, has done the same unfriendly thing as New York, full-width panels. I've been surprised that with OPTO, the Midway Line in Chicago isn't run left-handed (I've talked about this in the past), since most of the stations are island platforms and the operator wouldn't have to get up at all for most of the run.
Many (I don't know if all) Washington DC Metro cars have dark but transparent panels on the left side of the door into the cab area. Even though there's a seat facing into the car, it is possible to stand near the first platform doors and look out.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
This is not true as there is still plenty of equipment with railfan windows. Talk to me in another 10 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-3/1049112545240070.xml?starledger?nnj
Arti
Arti
Do you know the route of the Newark<->Jersey City trolleys? Would it be possible to resurrect this and connect the HBLR with the Newark City Subway? This might take some of the load of the PATH train to the WTC when it reopens!
Thanks,
John
Newark's one of my favorite places. It is so much the "brother city" of my favorite city, uh, Brooklyn. To think that Newark is getting this brand new connection between the two stations is magnificent. And the railfan in me drools at the new enhanced ways I can plan all rail circle trips. Hmmmm, let's see. PATH to Hoboken, any train to Newark / Broad Street. Newark Subway to Newark Pennsylvania Station. PATH to Jersey City. HBLRT to....Hoboken. Just for the hell of it, boat to Wall Street. Whadda life.
Oh yeah.
Have a look here.
There is also information on the proposed (not yet committed) extension to Elizabeth.
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
And it does work provided the 2 stations are NOT in the same complex.
You can also swipe the card for someone at a subway station and then go take a bus. That even works with a pay-per-ride card. With a pay-per-ride, you can also swipe a card for someone at 5th and 60th, then walk over to Lex and 60th and enter.
All these things are probably fraud if you do them to give rides to 2 separate people.
There is no 18 minute limit on pay per ride cards, and the MTA does not care how many different people enter the system on one card as long as it is swiped for each one.
Tom
There is no 18 minute limit on pay per ride cards, and the MTA does not care how many different people enter the system on one card as long as it is swiped for each one.
What I didn't say was that you can do the maneuver above and only pay one fare. The second entry registers as a transfer.
You can also swipe as many fares as you want at one station.
But does that message prevent further usage? What happens if someone takes four rides without ever transferring?
Tom
You'd have to wait until EITHER the transfers are USED or
wait 2 hours until thge transfers have EXPIRED.
No.
There's some older photos, but there is also some recent ones of the L's Atlantic Station (for those that haven't gotten a chance to see it recently), Broadway Brooklyn action, Willy B, Canal Street abandonment progress towards the end.
I'll keep adding more, as time goes on, but please feel free to check it out, and leave comments if you'd like, here's a sample...
As for Forest, have a photo of the entire station covered in plastic for "asbestos" removal. I'll post it when I scan it. The old ceilings were made from asbestos. The station was closed for a week or two while they removed the roofs. This happened at all the island platform M stations between Wyckoff and Fresh Pond. There was no other way to do it.
http://homepage.mac.com/alex.labianca/PhotoAlbum1.html
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
That car is a LoV not an R4.
I can see the thumbnails, but cannot enlarge them. Must not be compatable with Opera.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://homepage.mac.com/alex.labianca/
The only exciting part of the RTO competition was out on the loop track, which would have meant safety vests for everyone.
The original posting didn't work very well. It took me awhile to fix.
Addrssing pre-9/11, I would say it is standard corporate paranoia. Even if the company considers itself well managed, a well placed photo or video always has the potential to show them in a bad light. And if they know they're a bunch of sleazes, then it's obvious. Slightly in their defense, one has to realize that the press hardly ever prints pictures that show people acting well; usually they are newsworthy if someone is acting badly.
My wife once tried to photograph a building contractor's truck so that she could later ask if the guy had done good work and maybe use him if he had. He came running out of the building screaming "Don't photograph my truck!" What was he worried about? Who knows!
If MARTA has gotten paranoid about photography, either it's a recent terrorism-related development or else I've just been lucky. I've visited Atlanta once or twice a year for the past several years, to take pictures of MARTA, and have never had any trouble. The most recent trip was last May. In fact, I'm finally scanning those pictures right now so I can add them to my Web site sometime in the next couple of weeks. I managed to hit most of the underground stations on that trip.
Going back to the general question about why some transit agencies have always been suspicious of photographers even pre-9/11, I think there are basically two reasons. One is the fear of bad publicity that someone has already mentioned. Another is probably that they don't want commercial photographers to make money off pictures of their property without getting a cut from it.
I think that in many cases they just don't realize or appreciate that people like us do this purely as a hobby, so their policies don't take us into account.
Yet another reason for the MTA (and others) to simply sell picture-taking passes of some kind, as several people have mentioned in other threads. This would solve their monetary concerns while also allowing railfans to photograph in peace. I really don't know why they don't do this.
I spent quite a bit of time there, looking for a good angle that would include both a train and those nifty murals recessed into the wall. If there ever was a suspicious-looking character there, it was me!
Here's one of the pictures I ended up with. It's a strongly compressed "thumbnail" from the CD that I burned tonight. The final version from the original scan will look a lot better.
Out here in California, we don't seem to have any problems (yet, thank heaven...) I go up to Tehachapi Loop and Cajon Pass quite regularly and take a lot of pictures. I park my pickup on public roads next to the tracks, and shoot the pictures from there, and have not had any sort of "interference" from anyone....train crews, railroad-hired private security (BNSF has 'em on Cajon), or local law enforcement. And it seems no matter where, or what railroad, I ALWAYS get a wave (from non-air conditioned cabs) or a horn toot from the crews.
Up at the Tehachapi Loop, the spots on the loop itself where all the railfans tend to congregate are actually on the property of the Union Pacific Railroad....and I have not heard a single report yet of railroad police showing up there -- and the UP train crews there also wave or toot.
Never a smart move. You are likely to get a practical demonstration of the difference between authority and power.
Tom
2:21 PM
2:32 PM
2:35 PM
2:37 PM
2:41 PM
2:43 PM
2:44 PM
And to show the contrast with the climate in the Deep South (Collingswood, 100 feet from David Cole's office, 40 miles south of Princeton Jct):
3:51 PM
Also, I got yelled at today by a T/O for taking photos. More on that later.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Don't foget!
Where, why, how, what, etc, etc, etc.....
Are you serious, or being sarcastic? I was thinking of emailing the details privately to one of the T/O's on this board and asking him if he could contact the T/O that yelled at me and find out why he yelled at me and inform him that photography is legal. Do you agree that my idea is good?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
So if any T/O or MTA employee would like to know the details so that you can tell the A-Division T/O in question not to yell at railfans doing legal things, please reply to this post or email me. Thanks. I'd really appreciate it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
More likely the T/O was just camera-shy. I encountered one on the last R-33 5 train I rode, so I took a picture of the side of the train instead.
3/21/2003
Notice 30-03
To: All Employees
Subject: Observing suspicious individuals taking pictures of Transit facilities
As part of MTA New York City Transit's continuing efforts to make our system safe for our employees and customers, we are encouraging our employees to continue to keep an observant eye on their surroundings, looking for anything unusual or suspicious. This includes individuals taking photographs of various parts of the system, including structures, bridges, tunnels, transit buildings, emergency exits, etc. If you observe anyone taking photographs of transit facilities or infrastructure, call Control Center immediately.
WHAT MAKES SOMEONE LOOK SUSPICIOUS
* May be taking photos of personnel, facilities or equipment
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Transportation Officer
Rapid Transit Operations
If you think taking pictures in the subway is legal, go ahead and take them anyway. He didn't make up the rules, and he isn't in the position to challenge his superiors who wrote them, whether or not his superiors are legally justified to make them up. Thats for the judges and ACLU to take up. You don't like the rules, or getting harrassed, then get a lawyer and sue like everyone else. Don't use this board to encourage NYCT employees to break rules or assist others in overlooking them. Next time, he could call for police. You WILL answer to them. I personally don't mind the occasional snapshot. I fear the day when trains will arrive in stations without a motorman, conductor or engineer in the cabs and relish the few pictures I had snapped over the years. Other T/Os may fear the PI going for evidence for child support, or a beakie trying to catch them for a write-up. TA mentality is that fear installed you shall answer to the above when you don't comply, and all their bulletins are accompanied by "strict compliance monitored by supervision". This guy isn't a complete moron for protecting his family, is he?
Note: taking pictures of a S/B V at W4 while standing in front of the tower and wearing an "F" hat does not lead to a T/O in a good mood. :-\
All that happened was I took the picture, he shot me a look, and actually went to the side window (pretty damn fast too) and watched me get on. No words exchanged or anything, but when I got off a 2nd Ave he watched me again.
Damn, all I wanted was a picture (and a pastrami sandwhich).
More I think about it, that's probably why some T/O's and other transit workers are suspicious about photography. It may not be that they're actually afraid that the towel heads are going to attack. Instead, it's a much more basic wariness of being watched when doing one's job, a wariness that the TA's harsh disciplinary policies helps create. And then there's the simple fact that many people dislike being photographed without their consent.
He must have been very furtive. He managed to evade your every attempt to take his picture, no matter how you repositioned yourself. :-)
Tom
You got that right! People call him an old furt.
-Dave
I may be missing a few here and there -- so if anyone has editions that I've missed, please send me a private email with the information in the same categories that I use, and I'll add it to the table.
When I get a chance, I'll look at the maps that you are missing and email the info to you in the same categories that you use.
You might also want to look at Peter Lloyd's list of subway maps:
http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/NewYork/newyork-governmental.htm#subway
Larry, RedbirdR33
There is some unusual signage on the unused platforms:
Larry, RedbirdR33
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
They used to run 3-car GG's off peak, up through the mid 1950's.
Were there any other odd-number operations? Overnight AAs, perhaps?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Due to emergency track work at Flushing/Main Street on the line, shuttle service is provided between Main Street and Willets Point and main line service between Willets Point and Times Square. Customers should expect 5 to 10 minute delays.
What happened?
This pic strongly suggests that the inner platform only has about three to five openings, not 10.
When the Seventh Ave subway was planned under the Dual Contracts system in 1913, the Public Service Commission decided to route the Seventh Ave local service into South Ferry, and to construct a platform on the inner loop to handle the shuttle and mainline trains from the original subway, which became the Lexington Ave subway. The inner loop platform was built for ten car trains so that Lexington Ave express trains could spot all cars at the platform, but the outer platform was left at its short length because only local trains would use it. At that time local trains were six cars.
There must be 10 "arches" on the inner loop. As the website states, the area is now used for storage and crew quarters, which probably indicates some areas being blocked off.
--Mark
If there was no partition you could use trains with special drop ramp style doors (think Higgens Boat) to bridge the gap.
Because that wall is structural, I believe. If they took out the entire wall when they built the inner-loop platform, the station might have become structurally unsound.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Elias
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I will be putting up screen shots for the upcoming 2 Line Route for BVE and 3 Announcements that will be on the 2 Line, the route I would say is about 80% done, we need to install more signals and to produce more walls for the stations and add more trainset objects to the route.
NYCTBA (BVE NYC Subway)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Can you give me your e-mail address offline? I probably should have it.
Given the city's problems in supporting the subway system, the downard spiral of the LIRR and New Haven Railroad, while Bob Moses' Triborough raked in the dough, this wasn't necessarily a bad idea. The problem was, Ronan was as much about promoting both himself and his vision of making the MTA as ubiquous as possible in every New Yorkers' life. So while the creation of the MTA theoretically allowed the growing 1960s problem of deferred maintenance to be addressed with the new source of revenue (remember, the Standards had to be pulled off the scrap line to replace the dying R-1s before the MTA existed), Ronan's main goal in the first several years of the new authority seemed to be to paint or design every single thing in the system -- buses, subway cars, M-1 railcars, SIRT cars, maintenance vehicles, BMT wall tiles -- so that it carried the corporate silver-and-blue colors, while not putting the money into actualy infrastructure repairs that would have done more long-term good.
The MTA did at least try to get the Second Ave. subway started in the 1970s (its failure is more Beame and Lindsay's fault than Ronan's) and getting the vending machines and the trash they created out of the subways was also better in the long run. But Ronan's obession with that was completely offset by the MTA's incompetence in dealing with the graffiti problem. If you go by the "broken windows" theory William Bratton pushed while NYC police chief -- that if the small things are tolerated and left unrepaired then bigger problems will develop because nobody seemingly cares -- then allowing the graffiti to grow from a few "Taki 183" felt markings here and there in 1971 to the full car paint jobs of just a few years later was the signal that nobody at the top gave a damn about the system, and the crime rate also began to rise.
Mix that with the spraypainting with lack of preventive maintenance and with the stupid move of going with the untested Rockwell trucks on the R-46s, and the system got so bad even the politicians who appointed the people to the MTA had to finally make some changes by the early 1980s.
One good thing that came out of establishing the MTA, though, was the final separation of Robert Moses from public influence and control.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
This may be an old photo, but it still looks almost like that today. I have a current photo of this same angle, but don't feel like scanning it right now. Actually though, renovations are finally under way....
Anyway, the subway has come along way from around 1985. Times Square is finally getting renovated. Canal street as one of the worst (and it was), as you mentioned looks great, and they are in the final phase with the Nassau Street platform abandonemnt. Most stations throughtout the system are a pleasure now.
My key transfer station, the Roosevelt/Jackson Heights Complex in Queens, isn't! It's been such a hassle ever since the rehabilitation started!
I think the theory is nice to abandon both Queens bound platforms at both Bowery and Canal, and it will work at Bowery. But at Canal I am a bit worried that nicely renovated Broad St bound platform at Canal will not be able to handle all the Queens-bound passengers, as well as passengers getting on and off Broad street bound trains. The Queens platform at Canal is ALWAYS packed.
I'm wondering if it would have been a better idea only to abandon Bowery, and at Canal, break down the curtain wall, fill in both express tracks, and make one big platform there. It may not have cost more that the realignment work they are doing now, and you certainly wouldn't have an over-crowding problem there.
This idea, although far-fetched, would have gotten rid of "abandoned areas (the trackways), and improved the look of the station, which is what the whole goal of the realignment project is anyway.
The only space they have had for 3/4 the length of the platform is between the track and the green column (that guy is leaning on the construction barrier). I actually think it's almost a dangerous condition at the Canal platform.
That is only part of it. If I recall correctly, the other part was to introduce straight track in that area, which improves the ride
I was just there. The platform is 20' wide. A lot wider than 72nd St (which is mostly 12') for lesser crowds.
The Brooklyn bound Q platform at Canal is much worse - at least the same crowds and much narrower. But it should get better once the B and D run again.
That might have had something to do with the fact that the city came close to going bankrupt in the 1970s. It took a while to dig out of that, and there probably wasn't much money to go around for anything, including the subways.
--Mark
Every now and then, they'd release them again with a new theming -- the grafitti theme was one, another was football teams.
Is this becasuse the station is outside and the TA does not want to upset neighbors with annoucments?
Any other reasons?
>I'll take service disruptions for $300.
>"AFTER OVER HALF AN HOUR TRAPPED ON A DUMPED C TRAIN AT EUCLID AVENUE, THE DUMBASS CONDUCTOR FINALLY OPENED ONE OF THESE:"
>What is a train door?
>CORRECT!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
N_Slant_40! The group say you didn't pay your fares, with 10 votes, you r the weakest link! GOODBYE!
Slant
BTW: is that correct, maybe the Beach Pnumatic was first? Or were there any extended tunnels on the Els?
THE TRAIN STOPS SUDDENLY WHEN LITTER MAKES CONTACT WITH THE EMRGENCY BRAKE UNDERNEATH, RELEASING THE BRAKE AIR OUT. THIS FORCES THE TRAIN OPERATOR TO DO A VISUAL OF THE UNDERCARRIAGE (TRUCKS) OF THE TRAIN!
What is a BIE?
'This failed project continues to haunt the New York City area today, specifically the borough of Manhattan. This idea started in the 20's and has the potential to relieve the current Lexington Avenue line....'
.....Even Numbers!!
Waht is R127/R134 Garbage collection Units / box motors
ps CC why did you post a tread about my modeling ?
He posts from time to time om the web, is a retired school teacher, but lives in Arcadia CA and is a rabid Republican. And he has an OBSESSION for a Brooklyn subway line as if he LITTERLY owns it.
-Dave
This song immortalizes a New York subway route and is also Duke Ellington's signature tune.
These subway cars are also known as German Pinzer tanks, Thunderbirds, and the Thundering Herd.
Before stainless steel was used on subway cars, what type of metal was the skin made of?
Anyone 18 years of age or older, anywhere, can enter the competition to design a World Trade Center memorial.
Read this article
or point to http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/nyc-wtc0408,0,1129134.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dmanhattan
If someone I know dies in a hospital, I do not expect the hospital to permanently seal off that room for a memorial to my lost loved-one, why is this any different? The people are just as dead.
Some people, very unselfishly, donate ther bodies to science (for training medical students anatomy, and for experiments on tissues, and for organ donation).
But many others still cling to the rituals. You could argue that a aveyard is the ultimate in wasted use of land.
Definitely. However, it is a use that the owner of the land decided on. Usually, the owner bought the land for that specific purpose.
In this case, some relatives of those who died there are pressuring the owner of the land to leave the land unoccupied.
Of course, the south tower footprint is already partially occupied by PATH infrastructure, but no one seems to talk about that.
They talk about it plenty. Some of the more militant family members wanted PATH to be rerouted, so that the footprints would be vacant down to bedrock. I have read articles recently in which these family members complained that this suggestion was not heeded.
Other family members who are less militant who are less militant have said that the "footprints" need to be preserved, with the explicit exception of the PATH tubes. (This is, I think, a far more practical point of view.)
Government and redevelopment officials, if they can possibly avoid it, don't refer to the presence of PATH below the South footprint, but that's understandable. It is much more poetic to refer to the footprints as hallowed ground, than "hallowed, except...."
But I have to ask: Why bedrock? Why is it only hallowed up until there? Can I drill underneath the Bedrock and build something there? Or do they want the land to be preserved down to the Mantle? Or the Inner Core? Or the Indian Ocean 880 miles southwest of Cape Leeuwin, Australia?
Sorry I took so long to respond: I had to find the location of the exact opposite side of the Earth from the WTC. :-)
What if the person dying died of a gunshot wound from an armed robbery? Should the hospital bed or the location of the robbery be permanently set aside?
Then you can argue that the people who are infected are innocent, but it is not right in conduct to just build in place of what America remembers one of its greatest tragedies in history.
It is wrong to leave such a site fallow, because then one would not be celebrating the triumphs of America, one would be wallowing in the sorrow of a defeated America.
The 2,800 deaths are not domestic or regular. They were people internationally. It is regarded as a worldwide tragedy, different than what happens in the hospital.
I say that diseases that kill thousands of people every day are a much worse worldwide tragedy. September 11 was ONE event. Cancer, AIDS and other horrible afflictions continue to kill people DAILY.
Imagine if you were in the situation.
What situation? I can tell you that when I die, what happens to my remains is of NO CONCERN to me.
Time doesn't seal the impact of a tragedy such as this.
Yes it does, do you realize how many deadly disaster there have been that no one remembers? Do you go around mourning for the victims of the General Slocum fire? Does the Johnstown flood bring a tear to your eye? Have you ever even HEARD of these things?
WHY?
If a person is qualified enough to submit a design, they should be able to submit it. If the contest required a degree or experience in architecture or design, then I would understand, but this is an abomination.
This is just like saying "Any white male 18 years of age or older" in the past. The first two adjectives are now abominable in such a context.
The reason is probably due to the desire to ensure that the winner is able to sign legally binding agreements, which a minor cannot do.
Even if I was under 18, I wouldn't care for myself because I am not qualified to submit a design.
The reason is probably due to the desire to ensure that the winner is able to sign legally binding agreements, which a minor cannot do.
It's MAY not, not cannot.
http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Signals.html
"May 3, 2003, 9 a.m., 9th Annual Rail Rodeo and the 2nd Annual Custom Car and Motorcycle Show, at the Greenbelt Rail Yard. Operators and mechanics will demonstrate their rail operating and mechanical skills, while other employees showcase their custom cars and motorcycles."
I will be there, Come early so you can ride a train around the yard loop track.
John
The MARTA East Line runs parallel to real Dekalb Ave, too. :-)
I can't remember if there is a Fulton St here.
This is YOUR government saying YOU cannot enjoy fire protection. YOU cannot have adequate EMS coverage. YOU cannot have a subway which maintains a standard of quality. Doomsberg says no one will be affected adversely by firehouse closings. If that's true, why has he relocated SQ 252 from Brooklyn to E.74th Street to replace E 44 which will be cut? Because Doomy lives on E. 79th Street and God forbid HE has no firehouse open in his neighborhood.
I yelled myself blue in the face over fire & EMS cuts, wrote EVERYBODY, signed petitions! All to no avail. So railfans, start thinking about your trains and subways before it's too late...again.
David
"Deferred maintenance" was around long before the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. While it probably wasn't apparent at the time, in retrospect it appears that the (unwritten) policy began in the late 1950's.
Hey CC what you opinion of a model Slant r40 in N scale ?????
Slant
i just have fix the fucking email again ! Damn
Thanks Vlad
Bloomberg has been donating LARGE sums of money to charitable causes in this city and others for many years. In fact he has donated money to many programs who's budgets was cut last year money to cover there short falls.
He has also stated that he will donate his entire remaining wealth except for modest trust funds to his childern upon his death to charities.
Remember Bloomberg is a democrate who ran as a republican.
Because we elected him as the city's mayor, not the city's treasury department. He's under no greater obligation than anyone else to make charitable contributions to a good cause.
I certainly don't agree with all of his decisions but I'm thrilled to finally have a mayor who is willing to act on fiscal problems when he sees them rather than trying to cover them up and push them off to future generations. If only we had a governor with such integrity.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
VOTE BOB!
Voice: Quimby: If you were voting for mayor, he'd vote for you. Paid for the Mayor Quimby for mayor mayorial committee.
Voice: Mayor Quimby supports revolving door prisons. Mayor Quimby even released Sideshow Bob. A man twice convicted of attempted murder. Can you trust a man like mayor Quimby? Vote Sideshow Bob for Mayor.
Bloomberg borrowed $1.5 billion to cover current expenses last year, and is pushing off getting out of the pension hole at eight percent interest per year. He is also slashing capital spending.
(If only we had a governor with such integrity.)
Perhaps we would if the state had a Control Board of non-state officials hanging over it. Of if Pataki had been as smart as Giuliani and Whitman and hit the road before the chickens came home to roost.
Just so you know, neither the city nor the state are planning to reduce spending. They are raising taxes and borrowing to offset the decline in tax revenues due to the recession -- and due to all the special tax deals handed out in the past eight years.
And they are cutting spending on everything else to make up for soaring spending on Medicaid, Health Insurance, Pensions, and Debt Service. The Medicaid "cut" everyone is taking about is a reduction in spending growth. That is what Local 1199 and the Greater New York Hospital Association are objecting to in their ads, in which they threaten to let our babies die if we don't give them what they want.
Giuliani's term EXPIRED, he couldn't even run again if he wanted to.
I didn't say he was perfect. At least we don't have a Pataki clone.
Which pretty much rules out any possibility of spending cuts in those areas. If 1199 told Bloomberg that his daughter Emily had to go work in a massage parlor, we'd be seeing her picture in the back pages of the Village Voice next week.
All of which just supports my case, which I've been making for years, that municipal bankruptcy would be an excellent choice. Let the city be taken over by a federally appointed control board that's answerable to no one and resistant to all pressure. Then you'll see the vitally needed cuts, and a few sacred cows (e.g. Medicaid) will be made into hamburger.
Bloomberg is doing an excellant job of positioning NYC for the next upturn. It is unfortunite that 9/11 and the war have lead to further private sector job loss and reduced foreighn travel which has further reduced tax rolls.
Federal take over would not be effective in reducing the medicaid expense which is rising out of control. In fact it would worsen it by creating kaos in the agencies hampering bloombergs effort to provide these services to NYC residents and only NYC residents. OVer the years many people from other states and lands have come to NYC for the generous bennifits
NYC has done an excellant job over the past 30 years of chassing the middle class and corporte base out of the city. The unions suggestion that the city should raise taxes even further to cover there raises would further excellerate this process. The maniciple unions not there members live in a fantacy world where librial city leaders has been more then happy to give them what they want. It has resulted in a situation at city agencies where skilled labor often get paid the same as unskilled secretaties and administrative assistants. At DOI the secretary who's job was more or less obsolete was getting paid more or the same as most of the investigators. What a crock.
It is the middle class residents of this city who endure the tax hikes. they are the residents that are pissed on time and time again paying for countless social service programs that have increased the number of poor and destitute people in this city over the past 30 years. The only ones who see to bennifit are those who run the programs and those lawyers who work for them. These programs in many cases are controled by politics and are loaded with corruption.
In this era of tight physical pressures the city concil is cocidering two bills to make it even worse. One want the city to has companies who are bidding for city contrats to IDENTIFY if they ever did business with companies that may have used slave labor. This is first of all devisive and would require a multi million dollars tracking infrastructure that would in effect prevent any estblished coorporations from bidding on city projects driving up costs even more
I worked for a NYC agency. Many agencies operte as social service agencies for there employees protected by the unions. The fact that NYC has to work with dozens of individual union welfare funds which drives up the costs for the city by millions of dollars a year. The ones who bennift oare the union brass.
The city has been trying to close these firehouses for many decades. They receice very few calls and have other houses close by. They are a redundent expense that the city could spend the money better somewhere else
Remember fire house spacing was done in the era horse drawn hand pumps or very primative fire trucks. Current trucks and equiptment can respond to fires far quicker then the trucks 50 years ago. These houses should have been closed a long time ago.
Current trucks and autimatic ladders pump 100 times more water per minute plus today's firefighers have better equiptment
In addition other houses should be closed in the evening. If a 4-6 min responce time is acceptable in the day time. The same resonce time should be acceptable at night.
People would be shocked to know how many calls many fire houses get per month. The number of fires in this city has gone down 60% in the last 40 years, we have better equiptment, yet we employ the same number of fire fighters.
One of these firehouses to be closed was positioned in it's current place to support long closed factories and docks. There is another house blocks away that could easily, safely handle the calls.
Examine the fact before you shoot off your mouth.
This is another case of civic waste left to be because no one had the courage to take the heat and do the right thing and close these houses. Bloomberg commishened a panel of experts which was made up of his appointments and the appointments of the city concil who opposed the closings. The experts report determined that the fire houses could be safely closed
" when, as 9/11 proved, EVERY fire station COUNTS"
NYC employes thousands of fire fighters. They still will employ thousands of fire fighters. Many areas of the country imploy volunteer fire fighters who get notified by fire siren and beepers.
FACT: 1.5 minutes is a VERY LONG TIME if you are trapped in a burning building or under a truck.
FACT: Your EMS system responded to over 1 million calls last year.
FACT: 38 ambulance tours and 17 Supervisor tours have been cut from the system in the past year, increasing the wait time for an ambulance a citywide average of two minutes.
FACT: It's very hard to hold your breath those extra two minutes, when you're choking.
These are sober facts, right out of the city's own records.
he doesn't have to give a dime though.
However I'd like to see Giuliani brought to court over this. The man is making mega-millions for his supposed actions on September 11 (you know, running his ass off till it was over, then showing his face), recently Mexico City paid him $4.5 million to help with their crime problems. How many more officers could they have hired with that money? Anyway the man's making it big for one event and left his city to the gutter for his other years of poor decisions...
Not that I really like Bloomberg, but I will admit that this isn't hsi fault. Bloomberg didn't walk into office on his first day with a perfect budget and blow billions by the next day. He found the mess that Giuliani (and previous mayors) had created and kept their months shut about.
I am a cyclone season ticket holder. Even though the stadium is officially sold out half the stadium is empty on any given night. The area between the stadium and nathans has not seen any developement. Most people arrive by car and park in the parking lot on the abe starke side of the station and go home afterwards. The project was a waste of money. To make matters worse is to build the stadium at coney Island plot guiliani refused $50 million for a indoor areana and privately financed entertainment project(forrest city ratner- the metrotech people) to build the stadium
Guiliani also failed to manage city agencies correctly increasding the head count at many agencies even as technology rendered many of the jobs obsolete.
This argument to keep them open for the sake of keeping them open is just a colosal waste of money. Money that could be spent better somewhere else.
The politicians who oppose the closing are doing so for political reasons.
They wanted a study. The experts ruled that it would be acceptable to close the companies.
NYTimes - fire dept study
"If the plan to close the firehouses goes forward, the remaining companies in those neighborhoods would pick up the slack, and first response times would rise above the city average in areas around two of the eight affected fire companies. Those companies are Engine 293 in Woodhaven, Queens, and Engine 261 in Long Island City, according to the department's analysis.
But the projected first response times to fire boxes in those neighborhoods, 5 minutes 25 seconds and 5 minutes 10 seconds respectively, would still be faster than in some other areas of the city, fire officials said."
Good Lord! Is the NYFD still using Gamewells?? Tradition is one thing, but this is the 21st Century. Actually the link from that site shows quite a few of these systems in operation in the United States. This comes as a surprise to me since I remember them from the ‘40s, before we had a phone, when it was important to know which corner the nearest box was on, because if we had a fire at night it would be my job to run and pull the alarm and remain by the box to direct the firemen.
Tom
All NYC fire boxes require you to make voice contact with the dispatcher to report a fire. There were too many false alarms when you could just pull a handle anonymously.
I believe that in areas with decent pay phone service there are fewer or none of these boxes (I might be wrong), since NYFD prefers that people call 911 instead.
Originally FDNY wanted to eliminate ALL fire boxes but community activism killed that plan in the '90s. After all an ERS box or phone is no good if your throat's cut and you speak. But when you pull those old Gamewells rest assured help is on its way.
The same politicains and union officials are protesting the redundant fire house closings also predicted that the city would go up in smoke.
"This is a litigious society, and there are a lot of underemployed attorneys out there who need to make money," says John Kozero, a spokesman for Fireman's Fund, an insurance company that underwrites a number of reality shows. "[But] it's clear that producers seem desperate to top one another in terms of stunts and effects."
Sure there was a reason. It was great fun to watch the four horse team galloping over the cobblestones with the boiler belching black smoke and the bell clanging to be sure everyone got out of the way. (But maybe that was before your time.) :-)
Tom
"The city needs to tighten its own belt and get its own house in order before it turns to others demanding more cash."
Hmmm... this coming from a resident of Nassau which just recently was in major financial trouble looking for help. I guess he didn't know that, or just forgot.
"Bloomberg needs to make good on his threat to expand on the token layoffs of city employees hired when times were fat."
Yup, times may have been fat, but its always nice to see people calling for others' jobs to be cut. Ah, the human race. At least in the wild the animals go for the kill rather than suffering.
I wonder if (or why don't they) offer substantial paycuts before laying off. I know I would take one rather than not have a job, provided I could still pay bills and rent with it.
'“If we were to not get help from Albany, we will on Tuesday put out a contingency plan to cut another billion dollars out of the budget and that will be very scary,” Bloomberg said Thursday. “There will be no sacred cows whatsoever. That would require a downsizing in the number of police officers, fire fighters, teachers.”'
No scared cows except for the workers. :(
The city govenment by law mush ballance it's budgets every year. The state govenment spent it's money and borrowed heavily on pork barrel projects
The federal government is willing to spend $70 billion on Iraq and the latest word is that the $70 billion is just a first request with the real bill being closer to $200 billion. The federal government claims it has no money to help state and local governments. Down economies are the perfect time to spend on infrastructure projects to both employee sidelined construction workers and to take advantage of cheaper labor rates
Bloomberg is in a tough spot. He is faced with an economy in NYC that shed 250,000 private sector jobs due to 911 and the war in Iraq. The city can't borrow to cover the lost revenue. He must cut costs or face even worst concequences.
The job cuts in areas other then police and teachers won't result in significant reduction in city services. Many of these agencies under bloomberg have been refining business processing that require less workers to do the same job.
Judging from what's going in my house and in my friends' and family's houses, there's a sense of worry during this time. People are canceling trips or purchases on "big-ticket" items unless they're necessary. Those with sick family members are wondering how they will pay for their medical costs. Children who are aware of the news are scared of what will the future be like. Finding work isn't easy because of the poor economic outlook.
I'd wished that other alternatives would have been found to avoid layoffs. I would have rather seen alternatives such as attrition, early retirement packages, or payment garnishing (4 days pay for 5 days work), but sadly, layoffs were chosen. I am aware that the city must have a balanced budget, but should it be on the backs of it's most valuable citizens?
Too late now once the cat is out of the bag
Actually, my father is the one who works for the city.
I didn't think that things would get this bad, but then I'm only 19, and the last recession in the early 90s is only a faint memory. I expected the union to actually do their jobs and protect workers.
Lesson number one: unions love layoffs. Public employee unions have, as a goal, doing as little work as possible. They represent those who are retied, who are about to be retired (hopefully early), who work for the unions themselves, and who barely do anything when they work.
And they have succeeded. The City will eventually lay off 20,000 to pay for the rich pensions which were made richer by deals in 2000, at the top of the stock market boom. Its required pension contributions will soar to 30 percent of payroll (national average seven percent). Many of those benefitting from the rich pensions will move away, just as in the 1970s.
As for those who are laid off, once they are gone they can no longer vote in union elections, even if (unlike in DC 37) the elections are real. So why should them that have sacrifice to save people's jobs, let alone services for a city that the unions just want to milk until it dies? The union leadership can just move to the suburbs, if they aren't there already. And by the way, notice how the deals have gotten worse and worse for "future employees" as public employment has gone from white to black, yellow and brown?
The only thing the unions have done is throw out a few bogus proposals to make it seem like they made a real offer to prevent layoffs. They did not. It is not in their interest. They don't care. They sold out your future, just as the politicians they pay for sold it out in other ways (debts, etc).
The city has to bear at least part of the blame, for agreeing to the big pension increases in 2000. City officials must have figured that the stock market boom would never end. Of course, any number of ignorant schmucks, er, stock market investors thought the same way.
And by the way, notice how the deals have gotten worse and worse for "future employees" as public employment has gone from white to black, yellow and brown?
Why does that not surprise me in the least?
BTW, does anybody know what is the percentage of city workers out of the total city population.
The pensions are part of the compensation package which is determined through collective bargaining. Future pensions could be modified, but those who have already retired are entitled to the pensions that were agreed upon. Non union municipal pensions are usually set by law or a regulation authorized by law.
Tom
Except in New York, where the state legislature, after receipt of sufficient campaign contributions, simply passed a law making the pensions inflation adjustments, and eliminating employee contributions for those with more than 10 years seniority, all guaranteed by the state constitution. They state legislators and the unions are the good guys, handing out benefits that don't hurt anyone else.
Now local governments all over the state are facing huge increases in pension contributions, and will be laying off and cutting salaries and benefits for low seniority and future employees. Local officials are the bad guys, wrecking services, raising taxes, firing employees, not giving raises.
See how it works?
The main obstical is the union managements who would loose a way to skim money from there members to bennifit themselves.
You are mistaken. The City of New York already (mis) manages its own pension funds -- the State Comptroller manages the rest.
The funds that are run by the unions are benefit funds for health benefits other than health care -- drugs, dental, vision. I believe it is these that the city wants to consolidate.
The New York State consitution says that public employee pensions may not be reduced. It guarantees very little else to anyone else.
That is a totally unfair statement. It mandates that the state owned wilderness lands shall remain "forever wild." This is one of the most forward looking and valuable provisions of any state constitution in the country.
I guess I shouldn't be so cranky. Yes, there was a long ago period when the State of New York was one of the best run states in the country, and there are legacies from that era.
Some of them are ignored, however. For example, the state is not supposed to be able to borrow money without the public's approval. And as for special deals, the state constitution prohibits Article 3, Section 17 "granting any person, association or individual any exclusive privilege, immunity, or franchise whatever." That's all they do up there.
Off-topic I know and cheeses off the tax cut party folks, but do the history. Sadly, it works. And it's always affected the city and transit. When bills become due, you PAY them, you don't borrow MORE. :(
1. Central Park West to Queens (53rd)
2. 63rd Street to CPW?
3. CPW to 6th Ave to Rutgers?
4. straight through West 4 down 6th Ave?
5. Diagnally through West 4th from 8th to 6th Ave line (could that be local and express)?
6. York Stree-Jay Street-Hoyt?
7. High Street-Jay St-Bergen St
8. Between Grand Street and East Broadway?
1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. No
David
For the common non-connections: http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/nonconn.html
Looking at the track maps can help as well; for instance some of these 'impossible' moves are possible for emergency re-routes and equipment moves through reverse moves, e.g., your first query.
> 1. Central Park West to Queens (53rd)
No, according to http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/nonconn.html
and the track maps (well, without reversing direction, which I'll assume here because it's not feasible).
> 2. 63rd Street to CPW?
Similarly, no.
> 3. CPW to 6th Ave to Rutgers?
Yes, but they'd have to switch between express and local either at W4 or between 42 and 34, which would involve merging with the local no matter what.
> 4. straight through West 4 down 6th Ave?
Yes, but only from the 6th Ave local to the 8th Ave local going downtown, or the 6th Ave express to the 8th Ave local if it merges with the 6th Ave local first.
> 5. Diagnally through West 4th from 8th to 6th Ave line
> (could that be local and express)?
Yes, but only between the locals. And the junction is such at W4 so that the locals on both lines could swap (i.e. the 8th Ave locals go to Rutgers and the 6th Ave locals to WTC) without merging problems.
> 6. York Stree-Jay Street-Hoyt?
> 7. High Street-Jay St-Bergen St
Yes, there are crossover switches both ways. It creates merging delays if both lines are saturated, though.
> 8. Between Grand Street and East Broadway?
No.
A
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
The Manny B has been a disaster, and it and the Willie B make me worry about Brooklyn's future. We still don't have the Second Avenue Subway.
The certainly are fixing up all the major stations in the system, however, including those in Brooklyn. Grand Central. Times Square. The new Moynihan Station (let's drive Jersey Mike nuts). The Downtown Transit Center. And in Brooklyn, Stillwell, DeKalb, Nevins, Atlantic Avenue, etc. I guess Jay Street will be the most important Brooklyn station that is in poor condition.
The Manny B will require care and maintenance forever. The DOT's repair program, however, has proven to be a success (trains have been operating on one side only without a problem) and the completion of the other side is a notable achievement.
This doesn't mean that one shouldn't worry. But I have been reading your posts about this from the beginning, and I conclude that you're pissed off because the TA didn't opt to build a Rutgers diversion (not that I think it's a bad idea), and you're doing what a lot of other people do in New York: "My idea is the ONLY one and if you don't do it my way, a disaster will happen."
That kind of closed-minded thinking on your part doesn't do you or the TA any good. We've sen examples of that elsewhere - during the debate on AirTrain, and even now with the Second Av Subway (some people saying "either use the shallow Chrystie option or don't do it at all"). MTA will select a construction method, and no matter what, somebody is going to be pissed (and that's who we will hear from, of course). Oh well.
The Manny B has plenty of life left in it. The city and the MTA judged it not cost-effective to replace it. In the future, that may change. If they revisit the issue, put in your two cents' worth.
Until then, get over it and move on to other things.
Hmmm. I wonder what any replacement would cost? You couldn't just tear it down. So it would have to be adjacent to the bridge. Will there be any combo rail/road suspension bridges ever built again? Doubtful. So the replacement would "probably" have to be a tunnel. Wow. Talk about a Big Dig. Maybe a two level tunnel. I'm thinking a ten lane lower level, a four track upper level. Although, it's hard to see a four track tunnel being built. Seems like an extravagence....still, the trains do need the four separate tracks now.
I've not seen one conceptual drawing of what ideas are floating around on this subject. Seems like nobody has given it much thought.
wayne
The T/O is supposed to interpret a dark signal restrictively -- i.e., as if it were red. If a T/O were to ignore that rule or to not notice the signal at all(!), the emergency brakes would be tripped and the train would stop before it could do any damage.
Unless its on the Williamsburg Bridge!
Unless its on the Williamsburg Bridge!
No, that problem has been fixed by disabling field shunting. So you should have said:
"Unless field shunting turns back on!"
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If we ignore the rule OR not notice the signal, what happens depends on what color the signal should have been displaying. If it should have been green or yellow, brakes will not activate, since the stop arm is down. However, if it were a rigged test and we passed a dark signal, we would be taken OOS at the next stop and put in the queue to be fired.
A rule like that that is in every signal rulebook I've encountered.
If I'm going along and can see 4 green signals ahead of me, there's no particular reason I should be slowing up. Now, if upon passing the second signal I notice a dark signal before the third green, I have to stop the train per rulebook. If I don't, nothing will happen to the train (because the signal would've been green if lit); however, I stand a very good chance of being fired for not stopping.
Now offer your opinion on this:
You enter a GT area. The first signal is Yellow w/ an illuminated 'S', followed by 5 red signals (which will each clear to Yellow over 'S' and then Green. Today you notice the second Red signal is dark. As you slow down, the dark signal clears to Yellow over 'S'. You now have a clear aspect. Can you go?
Is the T/O required to stop in that case? The dark aspect is, at worst, yellow, so ISTM that as long as he's prepared to stop at the following signal (which may be red), all should be fine.
Of course, the rules often don't make sense.
Do you know its not red. You can have a bottom green or yelow and top red - its a defective signal. Not common but it happens.
Of course you can imagine how many T/O's change divisions and call in when they see green over red :)
Am I correct that, except for blind stops (like on the Williamsburg Bridge) and when specifically authorized elsewhere, a T/O is never to make a judgment based on the physical state of a tripper or a switch?
Ride the M wrong-railing into Manhattan over the Williamsburg Bridge (I think the last day of the GO is tomorrow) and you'll see a whole bunch on the downgrade. (I think there may also be some on the Manhattan-bound track proper, but I'm not sure.)
Queens Plaza express track N/O S/B plat.
Canal Street (IND) express track N/O S/B plat.
that I can think of off the top of my head.
Stand at Canal when a (C) is in the station and you'll notice the (A) cannot enter the station - blind trips.
I believe the blind trips at QP will allow the (E) to enter at a very slow speed if there is a (V) on the stand, but I'm not 100% sure of this. I know however once that the (V) starts moving, the (E) isn't coming into the station.
Speaking of Canal, is the WD on the SB local track always active? I see it blinking away (and boy is it bright!) even when I'm on an E, which shouldn't have any crossing or merging issues.
The WD is active under the following conditions:
1. A lineup is established for a diverging route.
2. A straight lineup is established, but the associated home signal is at danger (Note that if that signal is clear, and a train is in the WD area when that signal is cancelled, the train goes BIE unless its speed complies with the posted speed for the WD area).
Thanks for bringing this up. There's a third condition which I cannot remember, and I need to go take a look at my bulletins again.
To answer your q. about the E at Canal, I believe that homeball at the south end of the station is always at danger until the train has stopped (good tower practice, maybe even a stick feature [a stick feature prevents the signal from clearing automatically after a train has passed, the TW/O must clear it using the lever]). This falls under situation 2 above.
And yes it is bright. On the NB side the WD light is right in the conductor's eyes as he's observing the platform. Its painful. Which leads me also to check out the NB, I remember seeing a steady light even on the A with a straight lineup, the the WD should be inactive. Maybe my memory's gone bad. Something to research.
Speed control always in effect, except when a switch is set for a straight route with the home signal cleared for that route.
The R143s are equipped with a CBTC bypass feature, so I'm assuming the TA would need some other way to move trains other than Line of Sight operation.
WDs are designed to protect switches. Look at it this way:
While a signal is at danger, a switch can be thrown, even when a train is in approach to that signal. Now the T/O happens to be sleeping, or not paying attention, and overruns that homeball. He hits the switch while its in transit, very nasty.
Now, add WDs, and make them active when the switch is straight and the ball is at danger. Those WDs are supposed to be set to a speed to protect that switch. So now the T/O overruns the ball, but it swas likely that the train was going slow enough to never reach the switch.
Facing points have always been free to move with approaches clear and homeball at danger.
If a train were to overrun the homeball just after a switch was called to the opposite position, it would generally have operated over by the time the wheels hit the points. This worked fine for the fast acting A-10's and other air operated machines, and probably even for the Model 5; the M4 and M3 electric machines operate so slowly, that the design rules might have to have been changed...
Dave corrected this, but in fairly technical jargon.
When a train is on the approach track circuit(s) of the switch,
the switch lever (or relay equivalent in a push-button plant)
can not be moved until a certain time delay has expired. This
is called Approach Locking with Time Release.
When a train is standing over the switch, in the so-called "detector"
or "OS" track circuit, the switch lever can not be moved at all,
except through use of the sealed emergency release.
The larger danger is running through a trailing point switch which
is set against the train. This will usually put the train on the
ground. Approach locking makes it very unlikely, because in order
for time to have expired, the train must have been sitting on the
approach circuit for a while. Yes, there are some cases where
the train may have slowed down or stopped, allowing time to run
out, then wrap it up and blow the homeball. Basically, unless the
motorman is malicious, this won't happen.
A facing-point switch being thrown as a train approaches it is
a minimal danger. The train would have to be approaching very
quickly and the homeball dropped and the switch thrown just
as the train approaches the ball (but before it passes it, because
then detector locking prevents the switch from moving).
Time release is for signals. And the newer machines pretty much do this at any switch anyway (except for straight routes).
Being in the A division I can't test this. Nobody seems to want to call out sick at the East. I think the S/B is the only place I could try this too.
I guess this is one failing of school car not to cover this. I know that when a train is on the approch to a home signal and the signal was dropped that you have to wait on time. But I had thought that if the signal was arleady at danger before the train was on the approach that the switch could be thrown. Eh. Whatever. Thanks for the info.
If the home and approach signals are placed normal and there
is no train approaching, the lever can be placed in full normal
position immediately (pushed all the way in for GRS plants,
swung to dead center for USS). Otherwise, the lever stops just
before the full normal position and the towerman has to wait
for time to expire before completing the stroke.
If the signals were placed normal first, with no train approaching,
then at a later time the train approached, the switch can be thrown.
This isn't a problem because in order for the train to have reached
the homeball, it must have also gone past the approach signal, which
is only possible through time control of the signal. At a typical
IND 4-track station with a diamond at the leaving end, the train
can enter the station, with the approach signals clearing on time.
If the train has been sitting in the station with the leaving homeball
clear, then you want to change the lineup, this can happen without
delay because the train has been sitting on the approach circuit
while making the station stop, so time has probably run out already.
Homeballs protect switches and routes, and Approach signals protect against overruns that might collide if the switches were in improper position.
At Canal, with all switches set straight, you could have a train run both homeballs and they wouldn't hit, --so why have the WD on in that case?
"Classic" IND signaling allowed a train to enter the station on
time when the leaving home signal was R/R, using three approach
signals. The A approach is at the portal, the B approach is
about 1/3 in, and the C approach is about 2/3 in. This was all
very carefully engineered back in the 1930s to protect the train
crossing ahead while not fouling up service.
The assumption is that by virtue of the fact that the train
made it into the station without being tripped, the operator
has demonstrated that s/he has the train under control, is aware
of the danger signal, and is operating slowly. The worst-case
scenario is that a train operator, hell-bent on causing an accident,
stops just beyond the B approach signal, allows the C signal to run
time, then posts it, running the homeball at about 20 MPH, in which
case the stopping distance will not be sufficient to avoid fouling
the switch or train crossing ahead.
After the 1995 WB accident, signals and system safety took the
opposite stance: that train operators can not be trusted at all.
As a result, we have WD signals, blind trips and no field shunting.
The blind trip at QP is there to protect against the sort of
accident described above.
Actually its:
A @ Portal
B 1/4 way
C 1/2 way
3/4 way is a cut section
Homeball at the end
at least 2 short cut sections beyond the homeball, one of which is just before any trailing point switch
According to the TA we have WDs because of Union Sq. regardless you're right them rascally T/Os can't be trusted :)
Are you talking about the little red light on the blind trips themselves? You're correct, they used to be red-dark. Maybe a new implementation? Maybe sort of a mini houligan.
Blind stops are not considered dark signals. I don't know about the Willy B but I know Queens Plaza and Canal St the stop arms have red lights (where exactly they are located I do not know) that indicate that the arm is in the tripping position. They are not normal signals.
I'm not a T/O so I'm not going to say I have THE answer, but doesn't the rule pertain to passing a dark signal? Which would make your example perfectly legal to pass, but however should be called in to Control.
Did they take any action against you?
No. The responding TSS shared our POV and refused to write me up for passing a clear signal.
A big problem back then was track debris, so you also had to keep your eyeballs on the right side of the rail to make sure that trips for CLEAR signals were actually down. Sometimes they weren't. You'd have to go stomp them to pass a signal.
Actually since I've become a TW/O I have learned a lot from T/Ds about what goes on at Control Center. And I'll attribute their attitude to the same as that of a road T/D: paranoia.
Any IND homeball can display the following:
G/G: Proceed at speed on the normal route
Y/G: Proceed with caution on the normal route
Y/Y: Proceed with caution over a diverging route
Y/Y/Y: Yard indication signal, route is taking the train to a yard or layup track (IIRC, this is also displayed at 179 St for a relays leaving Tk 2)
R/R: Stop and stay
R/R/Y: Call on.
Yo bro ... gotta meet one fo these days. But for now, THANKS for whooping the IRT with your PERFECT rule interps! In MY day, if we GOT a bulb to pass, we did (your ancestry would be questioned if you screwed up the railroad for anything LESS than a busticated hose) ... you'd walk out of the cab, reverser in hand and go visit the nearest TOWER to turn a bad bulb in.
Back in MY day, the TA's interest was getting *ANY* train to the terminal the same day. GOOD ENOUGH ... :)
BTW, how often did you encounter a bucking train, as depicted in Pelham 1-2-3? Did they actually use that term when you worked there?
Did ya notice that I didn't bother to ask about 1689's condition or whether there were any things I should be aware of before stepping up on it? Not that I didn't have faith in Branford's maintenance, it was just the inevitability of fate you'd associate with the Arnines years ago. If something wasn't right, you just dealt with it and put it into service unless it wouldn't move at all. Heh.
You had to be a stoicist (?) to work the Arnines. They were like the infamous Uncle who was always asking you to pull his finger. :)
I don't think we need to wory about 1689. She's in good loving hands. Looks and runs great.
And in 2 months the BMT and IND are in trouble (yet again!) :)
Thanks. I worked one day with a Shop Steward who told me "Everyone who gets in trouble does so because they don't know the rules. No one here knows the rulebook." So I took it upon myself to read up. This way if I ever do break a rule (accidentally or whatever) and get caught or in trouble, I at least know the correct procedure to write in my G2.
And what about G/Y? Isn't that an aspect too (proceed diverging at normal speed)?
I guess they didn't care if defective, they were doing so much construction slowing the train down it took about 42 minutes to get from E. Pkwy to Sutphin. I could've WALKED in that time-and besides we still had to wait for a dollar-van (Q6 or Q9 or Q40, I don't remember which) afterwards to get to our final destination. We'd've been better off walking.
Now for the other end of the line.
Going north from Kingsbridge Road on C2 Track (n/b local), you arrive at X2, which is displaying Y/G and a straight (no going left or right over the switch) lineup into C6 (middle track at Bedford Park). Hidden from your view here is a Red automatic that clears at 10mph, hence the top Yellow. There are no Misc. speed restriction signs. There are no timer signals in the station limits. Once the Red clears to Green, how fast can you go? a- continue at 10; b- take power remembering to stop at the 10 car marker; c- some other choice. Explain your answer to the TSS who didn't agree with you.
Anyway, here's my take (assuming its not like W4 S/B):
To my knowledge, there's no speed restriction entering a station (unless otherwise posted) so I go with b. Once that signal cleared to green, and with no other speed restrictions in place, I can proceed into the station at an "allowable speed" - which would be more than 10 mph - and bring the train to a stop at the 10 car marker.
As for BPB, that too is my old line and I know that well. Despite the lack of a speed restriction, it's a terminal and therefore the 10 MPH to the 10 car marker (are they actually running ten cars into there?) so (a) would strike me as the correct answer. Actually, I'm surprised that they CHANGED things since the X2 *used to* display a yellow over yellow since the outer NB track was the "main route" and the center track was the diverge (despite the layout of the iron) ... so that's changed since I worked there. Never did run any CC's nor did I ever end up on the center there. But (a) should be the right answer as long as the red clears.
Do I win a cookie or something? :)
So Gs, Rs and Vs coming into CTL should be going 10 mph as well since that's their terminal?
Anyway, I thought the rule was terminal where the track ends in a bumping block must come it at reduced speed. The middle track at BPB is a through track (as you know), so if a D is rerouted onto the middle track, it too must proceed at slow speed?
I was told years ago that I was to hold to speed right up to the car marker, so I'll go with what I was told in 1970 for the proper procedure for that center track. Who knows though what may have changed in interpretation SINCE then? But you were supposed to take it slow all the way to the biggie dump. :)
Alex picked a good one here. :)
The day I had a problem here, the TSS (not the regular one at BPB) chose A, while I went with B, coming in at 16 (as shot on the radar; speedometer said 18 - but that's someone else's problem). The ensuing 'discussion' killed my entire recovery time. his first reason was"it's a terminal", countered by "no bumping block". Then "it's a diversion", opposed by "with a bottom green?"; "No, no, a diversion over the second switch (the trailing point you mentioned)", parried by "a diversion over trailing points? Remember that as I single-handly slow the entire system' and then walked away. Asked another TSS the next day, who said unprintable things about the first guy and agreed with me.
One more, also on the current B/D line. Leaving 42 St southbound on B3 Track, you encounter 3 (4?) closely spaced homeballs. the last one governs the switch to cross to B4 Track. This is preceded by a misc. speed sign "D 20". Entering 34 St Terminal, the B, which stays on B3, gets into the low 30s before pulling brake. The D crosses to B4 and encounters one Yellow automatic mid-station before dumping at the 10 car marker. How fast may a D enter 34 St? How fast should it be going before starting to brake? Does the T/O need to do anything else upon entering the station?
Now to make you feel a BIT better, it's almost the same deal at 205, and you could COUNT on both relay pockets being filled and something crossing over in front of you. What do you to approaching 205? RAMMING SPEED! Heh. Go figger.
As for your question, it's been a LONG time ... I remember that there were TWO crossovers between 34 and 42, so I'm going to *GUESS* that you'd be diverging on the one nearest 34 rather than the one just outside of 42 ... I don't remember the plate numbers down there since everything used to be normalled through. Diverges were damned rare.
So GUESSING that you're talking about the crossover just outside of 34, I would guess that you'd have to maintain a max of 20 all the way in, and aside from brake off and closing up, dunno if there's anything else. Gotta admit, you've got me GOOD and confused now. :)
As for 34 St -- yes, you're correct, I did mean the crossover closest to 34. This is the preferred x-over to get the Ds into 34 St. Since you were foolish enough in this case to agree with me, read Todd's answer to this question.
As for BPB, ANOTHER "gotcha" ... the ONLY time the center track was in use back in my day was for CC trains. All other hours, it was empty. So the rule applied at all times since the only time that center track was in action WAS rush hours. 30 years has turned the apple into an orange. (grin)
Back in 1967, I remember seeing a train switch over before pulling into 34th St. on one of the inner tracks. It was probably an F train on a weekend, since that's as far as they went on weekends prior to Chrystie St.
You've picked the 'other' answer, which is to say the one I don't agree with. Along with the toot-toot, the train is also supposed to be kept at or below 10mph while operating against the normal flow of traffic. This is indeed the preferred method of arriving Ds, but makes no sense to me. The wayside sign explicitely states I may take the x-over at 20mph entering a terminal track with no bumping block. Why operate as if the last train through this station did anything different than what I'm doing?
I officially came to the B Div on 6/22/01 (or the Sunday closest to that date). Barring GOs, the D has been using B4 Track at 34 St as a terminal from that date until now. The D arriving and departing from its terminal is the ONLY normal flow of traffic I've seen. The same TSS wo had a cow at my 20mph entrance to B4 also told me I DID NOT have to toot-toot when entering 145 Middle with the first B to terminate there. Figure that one out - for the last two hours, downtown Ds have had exclusive use of 145 Middle; now here I come as a northbound - the first train operating against the 'normal' flow of traffic - being told to sneak in quietly.
TA logic is like pretty flower that smells bad.
A thought: occasional visitors to 34th might be expecting the train to come from the southbound direction, and might decide to lean over the platform edge looking southward just in time for the train to clobber them from the north.
Do Q trains coming into the southbound express platform at 57th and 7th have to toot?
My particular favorite for this scenario: School Car in A Division. We were operating a Main St bound express around 10am. A GO had taken out the Queens-bound local, forcing all Manhattan bound trains onto the local so n/b service could use the express. Aproaching Woodside, we toot-tooted and could see ahead pop out looking towards Main St. We toot-tooted again and the blithering idiot stuck his head out farther because he couldn't see the train.
I've been highly amused by all this though - and as others have noted, apparently not all the bulletins or TSS instructions have been as yet written. I'd go fetch another pile of G2's for the handle bag. :)
No matter if a person is so reckless in putting his/her half their body over the edge of the platform or a person safely avoids the warning strip, the train will arrive the same time.
Speaking of which, is there any place other than France with both systems whose trains regularly run on the left (railroads and RER) and systems whose trains run on the right (subways)?
Reminds me of the first time I rode the RER. I was at Javel (having just got off the Métro) - a nice simple above ground station with two side platforms. I could see which way I wanted to go, so I headed straight down onto the wrong platform. The train I wanted proceeded to pull out from the other platform and I thought "D'oh!".
While they come in different directions, they are going in the same direction. In other words, go to one platform and all trains arriving on that platform are going uptown or all trains are going downtown. I think it would be even more confusing to make them come from the same direction but have 1 track going uptown and the other downtown.
34th: There may not be a bumper block, but there is a marker at the end of the station -and it seems like there's only just slightly less paperwork for a signal run-through than for hitting a block!
That depends. Ask your browser :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that I hear they're uncommon, I'll be on the lookout.
You can also find them at:
X96/X86 - south end of DeKalb s/b for 4 Ave service
X144/X132 - south end of 59 St/CC s/b for 6 Ave service
X560/X570 - north of 135 St n/b for Concourse service
X68/X54 - south end of 36 St s/b for West End service
X490 - south end of 125 s/b for Lex local service
North of 96 s/b on 1 Track for s/b West Side IRT Express
Probably plenty of others; these are just ones I know. Most of the time, I'm just making sure the bottom aspect (routing) is correct and don't consciously pay attention to the top aspect
The T/O should have called it in, and notified Control Center that the stop arm was down. Even though the arm was down he would have been probably told to key by the signal "according to rules".
Read the book.
didi it go trough ?
thanks Vlad
thanks
Thanks Vlad
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
RealOne Player(tm) (win32)
Version 2.0
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Build: 6.0.11.853
What version do you have? I really want you to hear this song. It is really funny. And with out hearing it, you'll have no clue at all what my handle is all about.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
As for the subject: Probably not, since the East River was demolished some time ago.
I saw that also when they were renovating that station, and damn it, I didn't have my camera with me. By the time I went there next, the B initials in the ceiling band was covered again. Yes, Canal bridge station used to be called "Broadway", not Canal. I don't know when it was changed, but it may have been when they put the 70's "cement block" tile up. It definitely was called Canal in the 70's, because as a kid I remember getting off there, and it had white "Canal" signs with Chinese writing alternating on every other sign, and "Chinatown" on the others.
Does anyone remember the station before the "70's" tile went up, were the "Broadway" name tablets the name of the station, or did they have them covered with "Canal" like up at "MottHaven". I would love to see a photo of the old Broadway tablet mosaics.
(It also doesn't show a free transfer at all at that station. I can't believe that! At the very least, there was obviously a free transfer between the bridge platforms and the Nassau line, since the stairs lead directly to the island platforms.)
As for the Broadway name. It was Broadway on the 1961 map, the 1966 map from this site, and my 1968 map which is the first one to have a different color for every route. It's still Broadway. Then I'm missing a few maps, and the 1972 map I have calls it Canal. So it's probably safe to say that it was called Broadway right until they covered the mosaics with the 70's "cement block" tile, as the name changed sometime between 1968 and 1972. On this site, the oldest photo on this site of Canal-bridge is 1972, and it shows brand new cement block tiles. I guess I'll have to wait.....
The transfer required a rearrangement to the fare control areas for the 6.
It also required a change in the thinking of the TA that new transfers were good. The thinking used to be that they were bad because they would reduce revenue. L to 1/2/3 at 14th also required no new construction but was done in the same time period with the same issues. A former access to the fare control area from the SE corner of 7th and 14th had to become an exit only (and is now a HEET).
I always found it amusing that those monorail trains went from the "Happiest Place on Earth" to "Sin City". From Mickey Mouse ears to people drinking cocktails and beers on them.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
In NYC: WB E train between Roosevelt & 71st, August 14, 1997, 45 mph (I think)
As for railroading, it is the Comet III/IV between EWR and Broad St. - Elizabeth at 96mph. I was standing in the vestibule in the dark of night, (because of PM rush) and I felt the train was going to lift up from its wheels because they were spinning so fast.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I have ridden the entire WAMATA system, but I do not remember how fast we got up to.
In 1977, 108 mph on an Amtrak train between Schenectady (actually, Colonie station at the time) and Rome (no stop at Amsterdam); a conductor got on the PA system and announced, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I thought you might be interested in knowing that we are traveling at 108 miles per hour."
In 1998, 65 mph on DART, both underground along the Northeast Expressway and south of downtown on the aerial structure.
Last week, probably around 65 mph on the Blue Line going west from King Street (my favorite DC stretch).
In 2000, the LA Red Line branch to Hollywood--that must go at least 75 mph.
Various times--NJT and Amtrak on the NE Corridor through New Jersey--they do around 110 mph, I believe. The NJT push-pull is a bit unnerving at those speeds, knowing that a locomotive is pushing the train.
I think the CTA Evanson express does at least 60 mph. Maybe one of the Chicago folks can enlighten us on that.
Amtrak 79 mph up the Hudson Valley to Albany (many times).
I'm surprised no one has posted the fast European and Japanese trains that put North American operations to shame.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
NJT trains are limited to 100, Amtrak do 125.
Amtrak 79 mph up the Hudson Valley to Albany (many times).
That like see 90 mph running and it probably good for 110. If you have a scanner the 3 detectors will tell you your speed. When I went to Toronto we hit 92 at the Styvusent (however its spelled) detector.
Of course, this was a very curious R-68 car, as the usual screen that takes up the window on the door had been replaced by some sort of clear plastic; thus you could see into the operating portion of the cab. I didn't take any car numbers down, but I did think it mighty peculiar. Has anybody else seen a similar window into the cab on an R-68?
Fastest subway train would be a WMATA Breda on the Red Line near the Pooks Hill portal (between Grosvenor and Medical Center). We reached 77 MPH at one point.
STEAM 90+ -- 1 mile in just under 40 seconds -- CB&Q 5632 Ebd between Savanna & Aurora in Sept '61 (NRHS)
Rapid Transit BART 80 in regular service
Nice. I did Acela Regional on that stretch and I have no idea how fast we were going but I hope it was 125mph.
PC Jan 1969 (1st revenue run) Metroliner 124 several segments--speed displayed difitally in cabs.
Awesome! First revenue run...my favorite kinds!
STEAM 90+ -- 1 mile in just under 40 seconds -- CB&Q 5632 Ebd between Savanna & Aurora in Sept '61 (NRHS)
Sweeeeeeeet! My fastest behind steam was probably on one of the MILW ROAD 261's excursions out of Scranton, PA, in the mid 1990's. Especially on the Scranton-Syracuse, NY round trip. On CP between Binghamton and Clarks Summit we were FLYING!
Rapid Transit BART 80 in regular service
I hope to ride rapid transit at 70mph plus someday. I rode PATCO a long time ago, so maybe I already have. And how fast does PATH hit out in NJ when it is above ground?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Subway speed: 58mph in an r46 in the 53rd Street tube, early 1990s.
I've seen Acelas pass Attleborro at whatever speed they're going, and that's neat to watch.
I've been on Bart going "80" (probbably like 75 or so), on a Septa train that topped 95, an NJT one that topped 100 (pushing - the main breaker opens and the engineeer in the push cab gets all nervous when that happens, along with an evil sounding bell going off), and an LIRR one that hit 87 or so. I've paced MN stuff at 90 on my bike and timmed a few at 90+ through larchmont. The funniest was one that topped out at a wimpy 78mph through there - so many dead cars the thing just didn't have anymore in it.
I've been on two Amtraks on the New Haven Line that were obviously going well over the MAS - the first one the conductor actually admitted to it ("We're doing about 90 right now, Metro-North lets us do that when we're late..."), the second one the conductor honestly didn't know the MAS on the line (it was obvious we were going faster than normal), excused himself, then came back with his ETT and hey, I was right about that 70mph limit afterall (got two glo-sticks from him >:) The train oddly slowed down a bit after that.....
A GPS makes rail travel interesting in ways you'd never imagine, BTW.
Most dissapointing was the MBTA up from Providence. You could fall asleep between stations (my friend actually DID). And Metra - I could walk between stations faster at times.
Most impressive was still the RTA in Cleavland. 70mph, cab signalled, 600V DC overhead traction. Acceleration was low (no surprise there), but the top speed was an eye opener, especially for such a backwater system (actually, the whole airport line was very interesting)
A GPS makes rail travel interesting in ways you'd never imagine, BTW.
Please tell me about this. I'll email you privately also.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
As for NYCT, I thought all rolling stock was limited to 40 mph? Even on downgrades, are there really any signals that allow trains to go over 50 mph? I can't imagine there are, especially if NYCT really installs grade timers like a cokehead rubs his nose. There have been several posts in the past about how speedometers on the trains aren't always accurate.
So what's your answer to the question in the "subject" of my post?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Awesome car. BMWs are my favorite cars. It has to do with my initials... So, was 135mph the highest you ever went? BTW, the car I rode at 135mph in was a 1992 Nissan Maxima SE.
However, I'm going to Europe next month and hopefully I'll ride a high speed train that does well over 100 mph.
Good for you! Please take notes and photos and share them when you come back. I hope you hit 186mph!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo wrote "BMWs are my favorite cars. It has to do with my initials"
Interesting Brian A.K.A Railfan Window (BMdoobieW)
Slant
WMATA, 04 1975, B Route, Red line, Southbound track B2 at Brentwood Yard, 2 car train, 81 MPH.
John
r33 2 line between 72st and 42st Spring 2000 (cab read 51)
r10 A line between 125th and 59st est. 1985 (dash dash)
Well, we've come a long way since then. For example, this morning I was on a sb (B) approaching (slowing down for) 81 St when a sb (A) overtook us. We still beat it to 59 St by about 2 seconds. That (A) train should have beat us by at least 25 seconds. What gives? The signal system, that's what. And this same scenario happens quite often during my weekday morning commutes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Likely, there was another train ahead of the A train. A trains do move slow through that area (extremely) but not slow enough for that to happen. Prolly rush hour back-ups.
As for transport by car, the fastest I've driven is 90 mph on the Seaford Oyster Bay Expressway during the summer, and my fastest car ride ever was I-81 north of Watertown at 120 mph.
But nothing beats a Boeing 767 to Amsterdam...600 mph! :-D
Sad to see the classic Broadway Limited go by railfan heaven, it was a great run from Chicago to NY-Penn Station.
The N/W on 4th Ave are close seconds. Southbound R32 or R40 on the N, northbound R-68 on the (W), usually about 9th Street it starts to go fast. Once I was coming down from the (F) to get a northbound train there, and the train was roaring for about 10 seconds and then was gone, just like that. The sound and speed reminded me of the time I went to Philly and the Acela went by.
I have also been on some pretty fast LIRR trains, like the one I took out towards Ronkonkoma branch, skipped lots of stations and picked up speed.
1141-1145 arrived at East 180 Street on April 7.
So far, 7146-7155, 7156-7160 and 7176-7180 have entered passenger service on the 4. 7131-7140 have been relocated from the 5 to the 4, replaced by 6811-6815 and 6901-6905 as they entered service on the 5.
Waiting to enter service on the 5 are 6876-6885 (which will kick 7100s to the 4) and waiting for acceptance to the 4 are 1101-1155, 7141-7145 and 7161-7175.
There remain three daily R-33 trains on the 4, but there are definitely enough new cars in the pipeline to replace them, and start relocating R-62s to the 3.
Tick, tock....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-Stef
-Stef
And because of that, I make visiting the Bronx a daily event :)
BTW, this evening I rode R-33ML 9234 from GCT to 170th St, and then saw/photographed the other two redbird sets within 15 minutes of stepping off of 9234. Couldn't have asked for anything better!
See here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.04.08/openingdaybronx.html
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
However, there is one where the same two are on an LIRR platform. IIRC, it is on the Port Jeff. Double-Tracked, electrified.
Why does it?
And that's Transit and Physics Together
Now, if the propulsion package fails, no dynamic current is generated during braking. If this happens, the Lock-Out Magnet is never energized and that car relys on a strictly pneumatic brake application. In this case, the shoe is on the wheel during the entire brake application. This generates a tremendous amount of heat that causes that characteristic smell that composite shoes give off.
I recall past threads explaining why the NYC subway system does not utilize dynamic brake generated energy for powering other trains in the circuit. I don't recall the explanation, though. Does WMATA or another system utilize it (ie do other subway fleets not utilize resistor banks as much as NYC trains)?
If I did not properly explain the bove, please correct me on it.
Incidently, those packages were replaced by the E-Cam units for that reason.
what ?
Now whous nuts you bustin' ?
Gotta dirty mind, son. Heh.
ps where is the MOO ????????? LOL
lol
it aint morning in your "Hood" but my for me it is morning ! LOL
Microsoft giving away their source code to Chinese hackers. Dumba$$es
why ?
I've learned some new undocumented tricks too from what's starting to circulate over in PRC. :(
well at least that more of a plus than a minis !
Most of the computer attacks in the last few months have been coming out of PRC. The rest out of the Mideast. They've GOT the code, we ain't. Makes for a lot of work with little money coming in to cover the workload and folks to do it, so I doubleshift and tread water instead of getting out to play with trains at museums. Bugs me to no end the ramifications of the elected clueless ...
thats aint suprising !
and in their desperation, they're trying to get the People's Republic to replace Linux with XPee ... heh.
AKA "unSTABLE" piace of shit !
People's Republic demanded that the source code for Windows be published before they'd even consider it.
Smart Fucks !
What our OWN Justice Department went after during most of the clinton Administration that the SHRUB administration blew off was handed over to China, but not to US. Whoops. Amazing what campaign $ can do for national security. :(
Well arent they smart! lol
Most of the computer attacks in the last few months have been coming out of PRC. The rest out of the Mideast. They've GOT the code, we ain't. Makes for a lot of work with little money coming in to cover the workload and folks to do it, so I doubleshift and tread water instead of getting out to play with trains at museums.
good luck cause i know from experience that "workload" of yours is a Bich to deal with !
(to save the need for a reply since it's back to work, the "biggie bug" is the electrical wire hanging from the ceiling in the car barn that provides a nice tingle so you can move cars in the absence of a third rail - 600 volts on an extension cord)
just hope you aint going to touch the Wrong "shoe" !
I think you have too many zeros somewhere. 50,000 volts at 6000 amps is 300 million watts. Aren't radio and TV stations about 10,000 watts max?
But by comparison, the 600 volts on subways is piddly by comparison. Still quite deadly if you decide to become part of the circuit. I've just learned to be even MORE careful around transmitters.
that is too much of a dietail ! LOL
Shit i have no lauthes so hard in years ! thanks !
Did you hear the jingle they wrote for Quayle that went to the tune of "Back Home Again in Indiana?"
I spent the war in Indiana,
Getting shot was not for me.
One nun I had kept telling me to stop daydreaming. The nuns we had weren't jailers. Oh, I had one who threatened to sharpen a kid's finger the next tine he used the pencil sharpener and threatened to put certain people through a meat chopper, but none of them ever told any of us we were destined for eternal damnation.
I spent first grade at a parochial school, St. Mary's in Waterbury, Connecticut (Good God, has it been almost 40 years???). About all I can remember is the time another kid tried to spit at me when we were standing in line, and I got caught ducking behind a column to avoid him - naturally, he didn't get caught. This nasty old nun who was the principal slapped my face so hard I got a bloody nose. What a rotten old [deleted], she was probably such a [deleted] because she never got [deleted] in her life. Okay, rant mode off.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Billy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I was going to comment on that, but thought it's better not to.
(coming from a passenger who didn't have the good sense to hang on tight) :)
As the airliner pushed back from the gate, the flight attendant gave the
passergers the usual information regarding seat belts etc. Finally, she
said, "Now sit back and enjoy your trip while your captain, Judith
Campbell and crew take you safely to your destination."
Joe sitting in the 8th row thought to himself, "Did hear her right; is
the captain a woman? I think I better have scotch and soda. When the
attendants came by with drink cart, he said, "Did I understand you
right? Is the captain a woman?"
"Yes," said the attendant, "In fact, this entire crew is female."
"My God," said Joe, "I'd better have two scotch and sodas. I don't know
what to think of all those women up there in the cockpit."
"That's another thing," said the attendant, "We no longer call it the
cockpit."
I already sold all of them on Wall Street. Sorry.
wayne
On the LIRR they sometimes have a "beakie" with a radar gun to see if the engineer is taking that curve faster than he or she should. This was told by a LIRR engineer friend of mine.
Perhaps you rode on an M-1 with spotted wheels which always makes you seem to run faster than usually. Same on the subway.
Bill "Newkirk"
LOL
The M-1/3's run at 80 MPH max, although the are capable of doing 100 MPH or better.
Bill "Newkirk"
First, MAS in the AMTRAK tunnels from Sunnyside to Penn is 60 MPH so, I doubt that joyce dewitt was doing 80 MPH or even 65 MPH.
Second, gender plays about as much a part in how people operate as race or religion. There's absolutely no correlation. There's also no significance to it. If being a good train operator or engineer was only about speed, then anyone could do it. Speed does not insure a comfortable ride, a safe ride or even "On Time Performance".
Get rid of your gender bias.
R-62
R-33 ML
R-142A
Don't you love the variety on the (4)? I would be happy if the (4) just kept the exact car assignments it has right now. But that is just a silly dream I dreamed one afternoon, long ago....
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
As for the stadium and "opening day" - a tribute:
I did the best I could with the captions, since I wasn't too diligent in writing down the photo locations. If you were on the trip, and you see a miss-label, please drop me a line. You can find the photo album along with other transit trips on my Webshots Homepage.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Frank Hicks
Seriously, he said he also enjoyed the trip.
Minor nitpick... it ran 1936-1946... which actually helps substantiate your primary point :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I found out from a Friend who is assigned to 207th street yard that he told me that there are two of these cars o is at 207th and on is a Pitkin! A they are not owned or leased By the TA!
And no the are not Speery Cars!
Does anyone who anything about these cars or their purpose.
Thanks Slant
With occasional variations, 1939 base service was A 207 to Fulton-Rockaway, express from Canal to 145, C 205 rush hours only Concourse to Hoyt-Scherm, CC (replacing the AA) all times Councourse to Hudson Terminal, E / EE Jamaica 169 to Church Ave. via Houston (as E rush hours only), GG QP to Smith-9th, rush to Forest Hills, when E was running. HH - I guess so.
Yep, known about that knock out sense when I first saw in on one of my bicycling tours during construction back in 1974.
I think one of the twin platform subway station on the K Route Orange line in Arlington has a similar knockout.
Archives (F02) has a knockout in the south end wall as well.
Not visible but there is a knockouts on the east mezzanine opposite surface entrance passageway at Farragut West (C03) and a knockout opposite surface entrance passageway from the Connecticut Avenue and K Street entrance passageway at Farragut North (A02) These knockouts were originally put in to allow for a paid area transfer between the Farragut stations. WMATA is presently proposing a more ambitious project to utilize these knockouts. Farragut North to Farragut West Pedestrian Connection shows what in now being proposed.
I puled this from a PDF file on WMATA web site titled 10-Year Capital Improvement Program
I started a discussion on this on 03 13 2003 on news:misc.transport.urban-transit under the heading "WMATA Metro Center to Gallery Place Connection, Farragut North West Connection".
Oh and by the way, what Wayne Whitehorne refers to as a "pod" in the WMATA pages at Washington D.C. Transit is official called a "mezzanine" by WMATA. And by WMATAs definition the level of the station where the station managers kiosk, faregates and venders are located is the mezzanine level regardless of whether it is above or blow the platform level.
Enjoy,
John
I know about the pod vs. mezzaninr thing, but as they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Interesting about the other knockouts, It just goes to show I'm not as aware of my surroundings at the different stations as I thought.
Mark
I will also note that the intermediate level at the Woodly Park-Zoo (A04) that is just below grade was built to accommodate a second surface entrance on the west side of Connecticut Avenue and a possible tunnel up to the hotel.
I think I have an advantage over most here as I had the opportunity to see the system up close and personal as it was being build. I have been in places that most here don’t know even exists, along with about 3500 pages of construction drawings of some of the downtown station and connecting tunnels.
Here is one that most people don’t know. One can walk from the vent shaft on the north end to the vent shaft on south end above the train hall vault in the following stations; Medical Center (A10), Bethesda (A09) Friendship Heights (A08), Tenleytown (A07), Van Ness (A06), Cleveland Park (A05), Woodley Park-Zoo (A03), Dupont Circle (A03), Forest Glen (B09), Wheaton (B10) and Rosslyn (C05). The coffered vaults in these stations are strictly cosmetic and serve no structural purpose.
John
You know I'm gonna have to check out the site plans that you have.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For another view, here's the same photos in black and white.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In a strange way, there's something almost fitting about letting the PCC car rust into the ground.
How so?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's hard for me to articulate. I suppose it's the way the car is returning to the earth from whence it came, or the way nature is reclaiming the works of human hands. I know, it sounds sort of ridiculous, but that's what I thought when I saw the pictures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
or point to http://www.panynj.gov/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=339
"Warning: Supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /export/home/nobody/6311110048/docs-dev/pr/pressrelease.php3 on line 11"
Chapter 11 Choo
Choo | Lyrics | href="http://www.railfanwindow.com">www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
What everyone is waiting for (so am I) is the resumption of full service. But Exchange Place is a good start.
Arti
What a model of efficiency Port Authority has been on this! My adornment of their efforts on this project is only out done by my admiration of their now many month project to fix an elevator at Pavonia and their 2 month project earlier this year at Grove St. to fix 2 15-foot rising escalators only to have one of them break last week, sealed off and left alone. Kudos guys!!
I got $100 that says the SAS gets built before a permanent WTC station for PATH. To give a more specific prediction...the temporary site gets finished in early 2004 (I know the schedule says Dec 2003, but the PA doesn't seem to be in any hurry), the infighting between all responsible (and I use that term very losely) parties continues for years over the final design, and either they just give up and "complete" the temporary station out of their own laziness, or Washington steps in and cuts of the funds thereby necessitating the need to just use the temporary station permanently.
Any takers? Ron, respectfully, before you type your usual response of late, I already wrote a letter. Although I seem to recall you were equally cynical of the PA's performance on the Exchange Place/WTC's rebuild's when I rasied the issue a few months ago.
Arti
Delayed indefinitely. FEMA won't pay for it.
Arti
Maybe there's still a viabile use though.
Arti
To clarify what I meant, it seems the routes may be essentially NWK>HOB via EXPL and HOB>NWK via EXPL. I must admit I will miss the convenience of the 1 seat from Journal Sq or Grove St to Hoboken ride.
Oh well!
And those are NEW escalators installed only within the past 4 years or so... I was a regular user of Grove St. during that project...
"I got $100 that says the SAS gets built before a permanent WTC station for PATH. To give a more specific prediction...the temporary site gets finished in early 2004 (I know the schedule says Dec 2003, but the PA doesn't seem to be in any hurry),"
They're working six 12-hour shifts per week. Good enough.
"Any takers? Ron, respectfully, before you type your usual response of late, I already wrote a letter."
What did you say in your letter?
"Although I seem to recall you were equally cynical of the PA's performance on the Exchange Place/WTC's rebuild's when I rasied the issue a few months ago."
I recall being impatient, because I saw what the TA was doing with the Greenwich Street line. Butr it wasn't the kind of self-serving cynicism by armchair wannabe subway designers that shows up here a lot.
2) I couldn't find the letter, but recall that I expressed my subjective opinion as to their work efficiency as well what I felt to be objective comparisons to which some type of standard could be derived. It was not received warmly, to say the least.
3) The cynicism categorization was not an insult. In fact, I felt that it was something we might actually have common ground on, as I AM cycnical. Apparently, I misrepresented your position or my memory is failing me as to your previous post, or both. In conjunction with #1 above, the end result is not good. Your comparison to the TA Grennwich St project is accurate, in my opinion. I probably started as simply impatient, which then evolved into full-blown cynicism.
4) In responding to another post, but also tied to this one, I too would simply like to see something, anything, open at WTC at this point. I suppose my real concern lies with the political processes involved in deciding what to put downtown. My one and only statement regarding the permanent station is that I wish it would be, geographically, more like the Hudson Terminal. While I was never around to see it, it seems more transfer friendly to the TA, being more easterly. If it never happens, I'll live. However, I would be dissappointed to yet again see our duly-elected officals squander/sabotage a true opportunity by their own ill-doing. If the project is truly not needed or not feasible, so be it. My 16 months in Albany, 3 blocks from the Capitol and LOB to be exact, really enlightened me to the way politics, specifically New York State, works. Not much has changed since I moved down to the NYC area. Sorry for the political rant!
The PA promised the return of PATH service In June at Exchange Place, and December for WTC. They are going to keep the first of these promises. Let's see if thewy are successful with the second.
If you're cynical, you certainly don't have any common ground with RonInBayside. He's just about the least cynical person on Subtalk. Me, on the other hand ...
Do you do any work in "natural language processing" - AI stuff?
Arti
That's what they say, but it's deceptive. I've been there at 5 PM on quite a few weekdays and the site is very quiet at that time. I'm sure some work goes on for 12 hours each day, but the vast majority of workers are doing 8 or 9 hours a day.
There may be some very good reasons why they aren't working 2 full shifts at the WTC, but I haven't heard them.
Do you know when the shifts start? When they break? When they end? Where was each group supposed to be and when?
"I'm sure some work goes on for 12 hours each day, but the vast majority of workers are doing 8 or 9 hours a day."
Let's see: You went to a work site you've not been oriented to, at 5PM, and decided that somebody you don't know, working a shift you're not familiar with, is slacking off on the job.
And then you decide to post a judgment about that work.
Does that sound even remotely intelligent to you?
Where did I say anyone was slacking off? I just said the PA has been deceptive. I'm sure everyone is doing the work they are being paid for.
There are hundreds of people on site at 2 PM and a dozen or two at 5 PM. They do NOT start work at 5 AM.
Work goes on for 12 hours per day. But most people there don't work 12 hours.
Who cares when they get around to building a permanent shell around the new WTC PATH station?? All that matters is that there is a station there that is able to allow passengers to get on and off trains. The "permanent station" will just be a pretty exterior to the "temporary station." The physical location of the tracks and platforms will probably not change anytime soon.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Editor’s note: Media representatives who want to film the ongoing work at the Exchange Place Station will have the opportunity to do so between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. today, April 9. Media should report to the guard house near the Exchange Place Station entrance to be escorted to the PATH platforms and tunnels.
Man oh man I wish I could have gone over to that.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
News to me. Ridership on the Pt. Jervis line is said to be growing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.railfan.net/lists/erielack-digest/200301/msg00587.html
The press release does not make any mention of the late-night service. Wherein, I believe, previously only 2 late-night routes run: WTC>NWK and back and 33>JSQ via HOB, how will they run now? Will it just be 1 line with a gigantic round the world route: 33>NWK via HOB and EXPL? Again, taking into the restrictive nature of the train-turning abilities at EXPL, I am not sure whether a 24-hour NWK>EXPL, with daily service as noted in the aritcle, and nightly service of 33>JSQ via HOB, is feasible.
Further, can anyone speculate is to the headways, or would it be sheer conjecture at this point? I ask because I believe during normal operations (speaking strictly during rush-hour), I think the NWK>WTC ran on 3-minute headways and the 33rd line was approximately 6 minutes. I don't think that ratio would be appropriate with just EXPL open. Many will take certainly advantage of the EXPL station with ferry connections, but certainly not in the same numbers that would have ridden that line to get to WTC directly, as previously done.
--Mark
Its communications network was outmoded, when the specifications were written.
It is just north of the Sutter Av station. Do a search in the archive you will find all of the history surrounding it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Robert
i dont think so but it depend how long is the block in that area the block takes about 60% of the line just after the curve !
Bill "Newkirk"
Before I left on Monday I ofcourse got my slants in...
Lancaster/Amtrak:
The station:
And once I got home I decided to hit Katz' for lunch :) took a Caddy there
About damn time I got a 32, although this one looks like it was involved in a food fight:
Like I said, not many, but enjoy anyway.
MoW is actually a division not a type of equipment, which includes signals, track, and whoever else are needed to keep the system in operational order.
BTW- AMTRAK is going to start stopping in historic Strasburg PA within then next two years.
What's CORK?
Re the home signal. ICK! They replaced the lower head with a round backing. That is PRR blasphemy!
Would this be it?
This was two Sundays ago, not as good quality as yours, since I was taking it through the window (no way in hell was I going out into the freezing rain/snow).
And yes, I know, it was all my fault ;)
Mark
Mark
im guessing you dont build models !
They refer to the wheel arrangement.
In 1901 F.M. Whyte, a mechanical engineer on the NYC, devised the system of locomotive nomenclature that bears his name. The Whyte system provides a numerical notation for lead trucks, drivers or sets of drivers, and trailing wheels. When one of these groups is missing, "0" is the common notation.
For example, an eight wheeler (called an Atlantic), with a wheel arrangement of oo 00, is a 4-4-0; and an arrangement of o 000 o is a 2-6-2 (also called a Prairie). The Wyte system counts the wheels, not the axles. The famous Pacific type engines were 4-6-2, or oo 000 o.
4-6-0 G-5 (name ?)
4-6-2 I-4 Pacific
2-6-0 K-1 Mogul
2-8-0 F-5 Consolidation
Is it the letter-number or name that differentiates between Alco, Baldin, Lima, etc. ?
Opps let me get back on track ... topic :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Manhattan El Steam locomotive seen at 131st Street shop and yards of the 3rd Avenue el in 1941. (Willis Avenue Yards). This Locomotive #259 built by Baldwin in April 1881. Stack for service in subways during construction periods to haul work trains prior to electric service."
I seem to recal reading somewhere that it was on the property into the 1960s but I may be wrong on that.
Elias
Elias
Elias
-Dave
It looks like engine #3 out here at Disneyland.....without it's shiny green and gold paint.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I honestly don't know how you put up with some of the nonsense on this board. You have got to be the most tolerant guy on the planet.
Anyway thanks again for this web-site.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Both the bart and WMATA cars are vastly different then the anything ever built for the NYCTA. One very important thing these cars have that to this day NYCTA has never been satisfied with for use used in normal daily service are inboard truck frames with outboard disk breaks.
Bart and WMATA cars are of monocock design. This design is vastly different then any thing NYCTA ever ran, or likely ever will run.
The per foot weight of the Rohr cars are significantly less then weight of any thing similar used NYCTA.
wayne
In a word Yes.
Thank you for your spelling correction.
John
Can anyone explain the advantage of this?
Can anyone explain the advantage of this?
This one I can’t confirm definitely. But I think it has to do total unit weight.
John
Wouldn't a lighter car be more energy effecient
Yes, But you are trading weight for raggedness, I don’t think any of the WMATA rolling stock would hold up to the pounding they would get running on the NYCTA. Frankly what I would like to see WMATA do is dump the aluminum monocoque design and use a traditional rail car structural design skinned with stainless steel.
This was a problem on the Rohr cars when they were first put in service. No structural modification were done to the cars and the still sage in the middle under load to this day. The problem was solved by loosening the tolerances in the door tracks to compensate for the flex in the car bodies under load. And as far as I know the Bredas and CAFs will also flex under load as well.
John
wayne
Mark
What cross street? When did they put in the 3rd track on the 3rd Ave. El? The station roof extends to the end of the platform, and does not look like 3rd Avenue style, but there could have been changes by the time I saw the line.
Tom
Bill "Newkirk"
That looks like Manhattan to me. Probably the Ninth Ave "el" or maybe the Second Ave "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
Were they three track els? The pictures I have seen in Manhattan make them look like two tracks only.
Tom
The 3rd Ave. "el" was double tracked wheh first built, then the center track was added at the time, I believe, when the line was electified.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is what makes this picture so hard to place. It is clearly a three track el, and I do not see any third rail which would indicate electrification. If it is the 3rd Avenue El, where in Manhattan is there such a wide cross street (assuming the station is built over the intersection) at a local station other than 34th Street?
Tom
Yeah it is very hard. I can tell by the number of posts in this thread. Usually, there are many when people have some clues. It's tough. Where were there three track els in NY before electrification. Maybe it could be Brooklyn? It looks like Manhattan though. I was hoping someone would be able to get somewhere with it.
I haven't a clue, and I guess no one else does either.
I believe the shuttle terminated in a third track on the 3 Av end, with the access switch just out of camera range.
Larry, RedbirdR33
and im still whaiting on you rply about the n scale subway cars !
Slant
ps thanks for the comliment
The last R-26 and R-28 ran a few weeks before that, also on the 5.
DYRE
UTICA
< 5 >
When my rollsign arrived today, the side sign was rolled very close to those points but I got the cover from a WF R36 car. They could have sent me a roll sign and a cover from two different cars though.
What ultimately happens to them is anyone's guess, but I might have an idea...
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
Watch the Crap!
Mark
As you can see by the M-7's, the blue stripes are now dead. There are reasons why they dropped the stripes, perhaps that's another process to maintain the cars exterior. Also, graffitti is removed easier than that of a striped surface. It may be interesting to see if the Metro North M-7's are delivered with stripes or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
They were not scale length; they looked very much like a 1980s version of Hoge tinplate streamliners from the 1930s without the bulbous nose. Even the two headlights are exposed bulbs. As I recall, there are four cars in the set, with one powered. The powered one uses a front four-wheel truck and motor with wheels about the size of a Marx tinplate locomotive motor's.
They weren't great runners, either.
I bought mine at York about six years ago; one shows up at shows every now and then.
The Washington and BART cars in the Walthers catalog are HO kits, powered or trailer. (I've got both of those, too.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Also, it wasn't till after I posted my original reply that I continued my way through messages and read about CC LOCAL's illness and I'd like to add my statement of concern.
Some people faulted him for asking what seemed like elementary questions, but all of us at times ask things that others may consider rather naive or dumb. I've received several e-mails from him thanking me for some info or just commenting on something I had posted. Several other Subtalkers send individual messages at times, and they're always refreshing to read.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Also is there any chance of NYC Subway getting a upgrade for comfort on our subway system? Besides the New Tech Trains, The R44/46/68 should have smooth trucks for comfort and for high speed(Express & Underwater, etc). What do you SubTalkers think?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Underwater?? I'd like to see an underwater train. With those, you wont need tunnels
Second reason is money is not that easy to come by. Most people rather see something like a new line or rolling stock, than to accept the fact that ATO will improve operations.
NYCT was in such dire shape in the mid to late 1980's that basic operations needed to be taken care of. By the mid 1990's the MTA should have began to roll out technologies to reduce operating costs. It is a crying shame that the bae fare had to be raised to $2. If new technologies such as CBTC/ATO and/or inteligent OPTO would have been rolled out, the cost of the fare could have been lower plus more right dized service to improve commuting times and reduce waiting times could have been rolled out
The cost of uprading signals and installing technology is cheap compared with the sky high labor costs of 2 man crews.
The way wayside hardware used in ATC transit systems to communicate with train board hardware is similar to the cab signals that are used on the LIRR and Amtraks NEC. The biggest differences between LIRR and Amtraks NEC and ATC equipped transit system is, ATC equipped transit system have bi-directional communications capabilities .
A simple example is what happens when a WMATA trains stops at a platform.
Train approaches a station. Train continuously receives speed commands that are above 0 from wayside hardware. Wayside hardware tell the train how far it is from the center of the platform. Train enter platform approach track circuit. Wayside hardware transmits maximum platform speed command. Onbored hardware executes station stop program. Train stops at platform. Onbored hardware informs wayside hardware it has stopped at platform. Wayside hardware confirms that in fact the train has birthed within the platform track circuit. Wayside hardware transmit 0 speed command and train birthed command verifying to the train it has birthed within the platform track circuit. Onbored hardware interrupts 0 speed command and train birthed command as OK to executes door open command. Onbored hardware executes door open command. Wayside hardware holds a 0 speed command based on a preprogrammed time limit. Wayside hardware transmits a speed command above 0 when time expires. Doors are closed and train proceeds to next station.
Another example is the destination code.
When a train is in the approach track circuit from an interlocking the destination code is transmitted to the Wayside hardware. Wayside hardware interrupts the destination code and sets interlocking and display lunar signal for the desired route based on the destination code.
John
Not bad for an afternoon's trip to Fordham Road after work.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I had a bit more luck than you in the Bronx on President's Day. The Redbird I would have missed had signal problems at Burnside:
Keep it up.
I ride it every day. I had a few hours to kill and had never been to Woodlawn before.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Here are some of the things I got in the mail today:
I also have two of the grab bars and the plate for the interior of the side roll sign off a World's Fair Car. I probably won't finish unwraping the stuff tonight and I plan on giving it a spongebath (it is very filthy!) but I will let you all know if I find anything interesting when I play around with these things.
When will your mail carrier be released from the hospital for treatment of a hernia?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Im jealous :)
As for the side roll curtain, that seems have spent most of its time on the 5, since those readings are very faded and dusty. Right now, it is set for the Flushing Express from Times Square to Main Street.
This question is more for car buffs tahn rail buffs.
When Gene Hackman chases the R42, what model of car is he driving.
(I recorded it off AMC, and looked at the car in slow-mo, but couldn't tell the make to be sure).
Anyone who can assist me please post here or send me e-mail.
http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/earlyfilms.html
But I'm in the process of fixing the code to do exactly that.
-Dave
There is no reason to do that. We do not need to vote on what goes on your site. If someone thinks something needs to be posted so badly, they could rewrite the deleted post and send it to you privately for an explanation if they really do not understand why it was deleted.
Tom
Arti
CG
A guy there was selling a supposedly original BMT entrance sign for the Broadway line. He wanted $265. Unfortunately I had no cash and he was leaving for the day. Wouldn't give any contact info :(
Here is what I wrote.(to the best of my memory)
"THERE I SAID IT!!! It seems that everyone is afraid to take pictures these days,We are not terrorists,the Fundamentalists Muslims are.I dont believe that ANYONE on this website is a terrorist,we should not be treated as such.All of us have a love for trains,yet our freedoms are being taken away by a very small percentage of evil people.Keep taking your pictures."
There it is,to the best of my memory.
Don't make things worse by sticking the other foot in your mouth.
Arti
Just go back to your compost heap under the Manny B.
Stop casting such aspersions on honorable men like Ashcroft and Ridge. No wonder David deleted your post.
Tom
A couple of comments.
1. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. There are plenty of "good men" on SubTalk.
2. If Dave is monitoring these threads (I know he doesn't make a regular habit, but ac has brought a liberal can of gasoline with him and spread it heavily, so I suspect he is "watching.") I suggest that he apply the E_DOG action to him.
Even his handle is suspect: catenary doesn't arc, pantographs arc. If catenary arcs, it's shorting somewhere. :)
Not once, but three or four times. The last one was so virulant that Dave shut down both boards (SubTalk and Bustalk) for several weeks), permanently banned E_DOG and two others from the boards, and made it VERY clear about what had been done.
Dave's stated policy is that we police ourselves, he's not babysitting the board 24/7. The SubTalk/BusTalk communities have, for the most part, done exactly that.
That's why I suggested the same treatment for ac.
i do agree with you on that one !
ither that or have fight him in person which almous happend !
thanks again !
Vlad
Still a closure, and I must say: JUSTIFIED!
That may be true in general, but on SubTalk it's the reverse. If everyone would just ignore the truly annoying posts, they would stop happening.
The artwork is beautiful. An R-17 in the dark sky floating in space like a baloon supporting a baloon basket with a pretty little girl in it. Look for it soon in your favorite cars. 'Transit for the Arts' really outdid themselves this time!!! Many balk about waste in TA...this particular piece of art is worth its cost a hundred times over. BTW: no number on the car but WE know it's 6688! CI peter
YES! I saw this in an R-142 on the (4). Must have been a brand new set of cars so they have the latest and greatest in Arts for Transit available. I was standing on the platform and didn't get on to the car, but it immediatly caught my eye. I looked in through the window and saw it has the round railfan window so I thought it might be an R-17. I can't wait to get a closer look at it. Thanks for reminding me.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Looks like closing will be saved
The last thing America need is handful of worldwide enemies. I don't think its good idea to declare another war (domestic and international).
Saddam
B*tch Laden
The North Koreans
Belgarian, and so on Gods know many more.
Plus, we should feel bad that Non other countries put their support in this current war with Iraq.
True !
wayne
Anyway, I hope this turns out to be just a bad case of indigestion and to Selkirk, GP38 Chris, maybe you two should take note of caution :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Les
Les
Maybe you could make up a list of his well-wishers here so he can know how much we're thinking about him!
Arti
Thank you for the information, and I wish your uncle a full and speedy recovery. The other day I had a small dispute with him, but please let him know that there are no hard feelings. -Nick
I enjoy his posts and wish him well.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Sincerely,
Stef
I feel that in this case I have to come out and wish CC well, even though we may have had our differences before.
Seriously, please wish him a speedy recovery.
Mr t
--Mark
I hope we see him posting here again soon.
Sometimes the littlest things
Can help make a big difference.
~ Sparky
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Doesn't anybody else find it interesting that "Dave" knows CC LOCAL's password or is using his uncle's computer for every post he is making?
Even though it seemed strange to me, I did not think much about it because it does not seem too implausible.
But I do have to ask: Isn't it more than just a coincidence that Dave picked up the following habits from his uncle:
The use of colons at the end of thread subjects
The use of ellipses (...), including ellipses with 4 or more dots.
The repeating posting of new subjects instead of responding to existing, similar threads.
What I said before about wishing well still stands, I wish any sick Subtalkers that they get well, regardless of the circumstances of the illness.
It seems strange that someone would tout a person so much on an internet message board from that person's HOME at all hours (so Dave must live with CC) and yet never visit that person in the hospital.
Something is rotten in the board of Subtalk.
i think you are right !
this dont look kosher to me!
I also noticed there was only about an hour or 2 between CC's last post and the first posting about CC going to the hospital. Maybe something isn't kosher and stinks in Denmark. But for now I'll give the benefit of the doubt that CC went to the hospital like his nephew said.
Perhaps his nephew Dave will post his name and that of the hospital so we can send old fashioned get well cards.
Tom
Wado
Former CC/B/AA commuter
(current F/V/6 rider)
Subreader/occasional talker since '96
Dude, get with the program.....
Fixed your post, son.
Earlier on one of my previous posts about the fastest trains,Some of you said that trains reach between 90-100 MPH at Larchmont-Dont they go just as fast at Mamaroneck?
I think that 76th st station does exist, but you have to go thru a teleporter after Euclid, and the station is in the bronx, after 205th st on the Concourse Line.
But then you would know for sure, and then there would be noting to talk about!
Elais
76th Street opened but was immediately closd when the first train, known in coded TA paperwork as "The Titanic," came to grief on its maiden voyage.
The PROFF!!!!
What's the deal with those HITTITES? I remember when only Anatolians lived in Asia Minor?
And when will the damn Medes just SHUT UP?
No! Okhi! It is land for the Hellenic colonies. Barbarians don't get a say.
:-P
--Mark
Mark, that really brings back memories for me. My treat for a good report card when I went to PS249 was a ride on the Church Avenue trolley. When we'd head out toward Bristol Street I'd watch the street numbers go up as the signs passed by, and it always seemed that East 98th (IIRC) jumped out at me unexpectedly. It took me a number of rides to figure out that there was a big jump in the street numbers, and it's warped my mind, even to this day...
BTW, I just learned Xplorer Press will have a book about the Brooklyn PCCs coming up, if anyone's interested.
Elias
In the late 30s, there were plans to hook it into the New York, Westchester, and Boston tracks, but that went out the window when the IRT connection was made.
When the Dyre Avenue Line was first brought into the system it was an IND line!
Elias
Why did they do that? I thought the IND intented to replace the 3rd Avenue El with a subway.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Also, the latest issue of Classic Trains has a nice article on the old LIRR double-decker cars. As a kid (and even after I was a kid) I'd hope to be on a train that included on of these. My favorite spot was the upper level seats.
CG
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
My second post bashed the R-142s. Times haven't changed.
My 23rd post was funny.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
My best friend, this site, and commuting back and forth between Manhattan and Queens is what pushed me toward an interest in subways.
BTW, my favourite cars are the R-46s...the trains of my childhood! :-D
Back then if you wanted to post a message, you had to write it on a 3 1/2 x 5 index card, and mail it to Dave. He would take it and post it on a real bulletin board with a thumbtack.
If you want to read all the posts on the board, you had to go to a warehouse in Jersey City.
Some of the topics I remember from those days were:
- R/9’s are vanishing fast
- I hate the new R/44’s
- 76 Street Station DOES exist – here’s the proff!
The old board lacked the immediacy of today’s SubTalk, sometime you would have to wait weeks for a reply to your post.
I bet Dave was glad when the Internet came along.
peace,
ANDEE
Transit Transit show
Posted by paul C-49 Mack Bus on Sat Sep 4 10:58:44 1999
About a week ago, someone commented that they hadn't seen such an agreement of opinion of people
concerning Red Caboose. I wonder how people feel
about the MTA's Transit Transit show that appears
on Channel 25 on Saturdays at 3:30 PM , and at other times on Cablevision. I find it too staged and too
goody two shoes ( is that an expression? ) It's too
upbeat, not depressing enough for my tastes. It might be better if the hosts could get into fights with each other, or just silently glare at each other when they're on an outing together. Anyway
what do you think?
A Subtalker immediately questioned the state of my mind (very perceptive on his part).
My feelings toward Transit Transit have not changed much in the ensuing years. I stopped watching the show a couple of years ago, on advice of my gastroenterologist. Since then, I rarely experience any episodes of bloating, cramping or periods of excessive flatulence. The few times I have had any such distress were usually traced back to watching Steve Thomas on "This Old House".
But the real joy of SubTalk is when I joined BERA 2 weeks ago and met fellow SubTalkers at the SubTalk Gathering. My main man Sparky, Pete the Pole, R30, the CBS Weather guy, just to name a few.
After meeting fellow SubTalkers at Branford, they became like a family to me. Sparky and Lou and the others were great people, and I look forward to meeting them again at BERA.
However, on "Brooklyn's Most Wanted" list is Selkirk. That's one guy I definitly have to meet in person.
However, to get back slightly on topic, I can recall my favorite post that I created: The Trainmaster Simulation Game- or at least close to that.
If it wasn't for Dave Pirmann( hope I have the name right), SubTalk would be non-existant.
Thanks Dave, for a good year on SubTalk, and I still look forward to posting on this sight.
Jimmy
Can't wait for the next chance! :)
A was planning to do a model subway car in N scale as a gift to Him !
Best Wishes From the Bottom Of my Hart !
Vlad
-Larry
It would be a great way to utilize the operating ends on all cars.
-Stef
9306 has been sitting in the Museum since 1976 can it even move under it's own power? I wonder if any of the other cars in the Museum are moveable under power or do they have to be towed liek unmototized trailers.
Another question - can LoVs MU with the later equipment and operate properly? I have feeling the answer would be no.
I can not recall ever seeing a mixed consist of LoVs and R12s in passenger service.
*ALL* of the cars supposed to be operating on these trips have been sitting in the museum since 1976 and at various times I have been told here on Subtalk and elsewhere that they all were mostly inoperable. (The museum roster will be due for an update if these trips go smoothly!) If they can fix them up, what's one more? But at least in the case of 9306, they've got plenty of spare parts! :-)
-Dave
I see a few posters I'd volunteer to the task....
Others in the fleet have the Vandorn coupler, so she can't mate with them either.
Sparky here, I forwarded the above message to Bill Wall, the
following is his reply to you and others who are wondering
"What Evil Lurks In His Mind":
>>>"That would be giving away what I am up too..."<<<
All I will say from past experiences is expect the unexpected.
Looking forward to meeting many SubTalkers on the excursions,
except June 7, medical appointments.
8-)~ Sparky
-Stef
Regards,
Stef
MAJORITY ?
think 99.9%
#3 West End Jeff
So hang in there, and don't contemplate the "hypothetical negatives". Think forward, think positive. And.....roll with it. (And just between you and "me", when he feels up to it, uh, go with him to ride on the Franklin Shuttle! He was hesitant about taking it. And, gulp, I had chastised him for that attitude.)
BEST wishes and a speedy recovery to John !
Vlad
http://web.mit.edu/spui/www/temp/mbta.pdf
And to cap out the day, don't forget to ride the Franklin Shuttle. One of the regular posters in this group has plastered the bike path with signs directing enthusiasts to the shuttle.
avid
Investigation into Track Worker's Death
Simple forcing of you idea on the current system would be to simply place something metal across the IJ. And every employee working on or around tracks be given a large but lightweight LED red latern (this way its not too much a burden to carry but can be seen). In the case of the signal maintainer who was told to check out another signal, when he arrives he puts that signal 100-150 feet away. By the rules the train must stop. Integrate the device previously mentioned and he has 2 blocks of protection. TW/O must be notified however when the gangs are out there doing this. Its not a big deal either as this will illuminate one segment (or bulb) on the board and in most places a train illuminates 2 or more.
if something happens 'you bought it' not the people that put you in that situation.
The technology should be simple, but also, EVERY track worker crew should be "noticed" to the T/O's on the routr. In mainline RR practice, engineers receive notice that a track crew is working between mileposts x and y... Its not perfect but it helps.
and the front of R142#6416 has black over it,s front.
yesterday while i was waiting for the J train,i saw R42#4811&4810,only
thing was that their bonnets were painted a light blue.that first time
i see an R42 with it,s bonnets painted.and on the side the car,there were 2 small pices of paper stiking to it,s side.one paper said event 3,the other said ac problems.were these 2 cars apart
of the coney island redoe?
til next time
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
AMI
I looked at both photos closely and the fronts look the same except that the car in the top photo doesn't have the LED on.
The 2nd photo looks like they have a problem with the LED judging by the black "stripe" of dead led bulbs down the center.
Look again. 6395 doesn't have black around the windows.
You know something? It looks better w/o the black around the windows.
Robert
til next time
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
For those who grew up in the Bronx and am as old (or older) than I am the Dyre Avenue line was always known as the "Dinky" during the time before it was connected to the main line.
I thought he meant something else too.
As you see in this photo:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=469711
..this is also called the "Dinky"
But NJ Transit did pay attention and respond to his complaint. Good for them.
Twenty years ago, if this fellows complaints were shown to have merit, the line would simply be abandoned. Now...?
#3 West End Jeff
Folks in the Princeton area have a love-hate relationship with the Dinky and NJT in general; those who live close to Princeton Junction generally don't like the Dinky (and have repeatedly opposed the RR's efforts to build a parking deck for the station, which was one of the reasons Hamilton station was constructed - although they all want parking spaces at PJ and complain because they can't get them), whereas those who live on the Princeton side of the canal generally like it, as long as they're within walking distance of the Dinky station (there's no all-day parking anywhere in the vicinity). The complainant resides on Scott Lane, which is in a high-priced neighborhood at the edge of the University campus, just beyond reasonable walking distance from the Dinky station, so he's probably not a fan of the Dinky in the first place, and would probably support abandonment of the line since that would enable the construction of an additional 30-50 parking spaces at PJ. Therefore, I would surmise that he has an interest in making the situation look as bad as possible, in the hopes that those annoying trains will go away and let him jog along the canal in peace, undisturbed by any sound other than that of his Walkman and his cell phone.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, that saves me the trouble of digging out a map. My first guess was that he lives near the ROW and is looking for an excuse to have the shuttle shut down. It's highly irresponsible for an engineer to make such a call based on visual inspection; if he wants to put some strain gagues on the span or measure deflections, pro bono, then I'd take his concerns seriously.
This guy should be fired from his engineering job since he can't tell what is holding up the bridge.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Well, we know where you don't live :-) PJ&B or Dinky... with Dinky being the more common usage locally.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But I pray godspeed that your father makes a speedy recovery and hopefully gets back into this friendly message board. Just wanted to tell you directly in this board that I did thanked him for such a vast interest in life riding the subways in the 60's and 70's. He really did flood this board with a lot of posts and he had to take is easy on that, but they were all transit related and spoke of positive things and the ROTTEN times of the defferred maintenance era of the 70's. His handle reminds me of a line I wanted to ride on an R10 from Rockaway Park to Bedford Park, the conductor standing between cars operating the controls, the hissing of the doors, the little fans (no A/C of course) that were blowing hot air in the summertime.
May your father be well, thank God, and hope he returns to this board, flooding messages again! (lol)
-- Ed Sachs
Vlad
From the 04/10/2003 NY Daily News-
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/74126p-68591c.html
From the Bridge Tolls Advocacy Project,a pro-toll group-
http://www.bridgetolls.org/saying/nysun-09Apr03.htm
Only if they toll you coming and going.
Since the MTA and PA controlled spans are tolled as well, it effectively would mean you can't come into Manhattan by car without paying.
And that's exactly what happens in the London CBD.
The tolls will also, presumably, be lower than in London, and will serve a different purpose.
Manhattan residents won't be granted discounts or waivers, nor should they be.
You're right, forgot about those. So Bronx residents and Westchester folks only would be exempt? You can't get to those bridges from Brooklyn or Queens without paying a toll somewhere either coming or going, and it's a long detour.
And what if the city decided to erect a toll plaza and EZ Pass on the Harlem Bridges?
You're well aware that it costs a lot to maintain those bridges. It also costs a lot in time when too many cars try to squeeze onto them. Tolling the bridges would shift that first burden specifically onto those who drive over the bridges and would substantially reduce the second burden. See the BTAP's comments on bridge tolls.
I would have no problem if the city decided to toll the Harlem River bridges. For that matter, I would have no problem if the city decided to (electronically) toll every single city street. Most New Yorkers don't have cars. Tolling the streets would allow the city to lower its taxes considerably and thereby attract residents and businesses. Why do we pay to ride the subway but not to take up much more space in a car on the street?
The question is whether more businesses would be attracted by the lower taxes or driven away (so to speak) by the much higher costs of operating vehicles. That's a risky gamble, and now isn't the time to try it.
Reducing taxes is a wonderful thing when you have an economy. When you don't, then you have to decide what your priorities are, and SOMEBODY has to pay the piper ... the state could save in excess of $3 billion and not have to raise taxes as substantially by suspending corporate welfare until the economy improves. What are the chances? :)
What's the risk?
Cordons don't accomplish quite the same purpose.
My idea is that, if you drive on a city street, you will pay (a) your share of the maintenance of that street, (b) a nuisance fee, since your vehicle produces significant quantities of noise and air pollutants and interferes with pedestrian activity, and (b) rent for the space occupied by your vehicle (which would vary by location and time of day, and would include parked vehicles), since space in this city is too valuable to be given away for free to anyone who happens to have a car.
ObTransit: Imagine how much quicker bus service would be in such a city!
:-D
Until you reach Oxford Street style traffic - traffic jams made up entirely of buses!
Then where do all those brightly colored cars that I see in pictures of New York streets come from. Somehow I find it hard to believe that all the vehicles on city streets are just people joy riding. Do not forget that tolls on the streets would also increase the cost of everything that moves by truck. There is no free lunch.
Tom
From a minority of New Yorkers.
Do not forget that tolls on the streets would also increase the cost of everything that moves by truck. There is no free lunch.
I'm not looking for a free lunch -- I'm looking to eliminate the free lunch that a few people eat off the backs of average New Yorkers. Yes, I'll have to pay more for a loaf of bread, but my taxes will drop more than enough to offset the price increase. In fact, with user fees on the streets, traffic volumes will be much lower, so the truck delivering flour to the bakery won't hit as many traffic jams -- lowering the total cost of transport even further. And, with direct user fees, trucking firms will have a direct incentive to invest in other modes of transport, like rail.
Good points, but I don't trust the city government enough to be sure that extra revenues from tolls will be used to reduce taxes. They might end up going to various pork-barrel schemes or even to Medicaid. Okay, maybe the laws governing the new tolls will be written so as to require revenues to be used for tax reductions. Trouble is, loopholes are very hard to eliminate.
Secession from the state requires permission from the rest of the state. They'll never let their cash cow leave without a fight, nor will the suburbs (which got improved their own image by weakening the city) ever allow that city to strengthen itself (and thus make the suburbs look less attractive).
Yeah, you and John Lennon.(damned subversives) :-)
Tom
For all the talk of cutting taxes, it might be helpful for some of these suburban areas to start looking towards cutting EXPENSES. Just another thought that'll go nowhere. After all, the borrow and spend party rules the suburbs.
And Congress. Also consider that there have been no secessions in at least the past 100 years except maybe for a few trivial boundary line adjustments.
Speaking of Georgia and bringing things back on-topic, any word these days on the old plans for a commuter rail system to connect Atlanta with the the surrounding region?
Mark
Mark
I'm not sure what would be involved. There's certainly not much precedent for such a step, seeing as how state boundaries have been nearly sacrosanct for many decades.
There is an ongoing push to have the town of Wendover, Utah become part of Nevada. The town is rather depressed, while just across the Nevada line, in an unincorporated part of Elko County IIRC, there are several thriving casinos, which do excellent business as they're the closest ones to the sizeable Salt Lake City metropolitan area. Congress will have to come up with some procedures for handling the Wendover situation if it gets that far.
This is really off-topic...how can I shoehorn subways into this... Both WV and ME split from states that would later have subways...?
Mark
No! "Marching through Atlanta" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...
Well london tube doesn't have quite the same ring to it... ither
LOL
thats why we got glasgow !
A subway that likes rape, ultra-violence and Beethoven ;-)
Brooklyn didn't lose all of its independence on January 1, 1898, it lost it gradually over the years to come.
Nonsense. New York is a poor city in a poor state supported by one center of economic wealth -- Manhattan. Only a handful of New York Counties have per capita incomes significantly above the national average: Manhattan, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam and Albany. All those counties on that list have their incomes raised by commuters to, or taxes extracted from, Manhattan.
Brooklyn was never fully independent. It had two economic bases, commuting to Manhattan and manufacturing/the port. The latter one disappeared, the former remains. Without commuters to Manhattan, Brooklyn would be Buffalo.
Of course, Manhattan couldn't be Manhattan without commuters from, and support activities located in, the rest of the city and region. But anyone who thinks other parts of the city could secede from Manhattan and prosper are nuts. On the other hand, the city would be better off if it seceded from the state, but the rest of the state and the federal government would never allow it.
It will be interesting to see the post-9/11 evolution of corporate office space. I’m reckoning that there will be a fair number of companies having significant activities well beyond Manhattan, eg Morgan Stanley’s buying of the former Texaco site in Westchester.
What this will do to Manhattan and the office space demand/price remains to be seen.
John
There's nothing new about the migration of jobs to the suburbs. It's a process that began at least as early as the 1960's. Look at the major corporations with their headquarters or main operations in the suburbs and chances are good that many of them started out in Manhattan. Corporate migration rates, like anything else, go in cycles. The supposed post-9/11 exodus of jobs to the 'burbs probably represents nothing more than a regression to the mean, as statiticians would say, following a period of several years during which Manhattan saw relatively few jobs leave.
Right now, demand is inhibited by price. Usually when you get a downturn in the economy, space becomes cheap enough to attract start-up companies in soon to grow industries, leading to the next boom.
One fact that might work against this: there really wasn't much office space built in the 1990s boom, compared with the 1980s boom or the 1960s boom. And there was a lot of office space lost on 9/11/01.
Come to think of it, there wasn't a lot of development, period. You had a hospital building boom in the early 1990s, paid for by you and me. You started to see a significant increase in unsubsidized housing at the end of the 1990s, but it was nothing to write home about.
The local sector boom I had hoped for, taking advantage of the fact that the boroughs are underserved for retail and consumer services, was modest. You got some new buildings, but not many, and the extra space on most local commercial streets was filled up, choking off growth and pushing out less profitable businesses.
This is a period of falling interest rates, falling crime, and rising employment. Hard to figure out. Maybe there's hope here -- if the economy stabilizes, a building boom could occur due to pent up demand.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
If you feel like it, be sure and stop by and say hello.
Then again, you should set up shop somewhere on the Sea-Beach line, cause when people see the decaying stations, they might need your "services".
Are you actually going to be visiting Coney Island? If so, I plan to be there on Sunday April 13, 2003.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I hope to be there to throw out the ceremonial first Skee Ball :^)
how much ???????????
price ?
Quanto peso ??????
Well... Since there were less than a dozen R11s made, this is quite a rare item. I've checked with several serious collectors of R11 memorabilia and they agree that an opening price of $15,000 is quite in keeping with the importance of this item...
paul where or should i say ho did you get your hands on that stuff ?
thanks Vlad
imight be loockin for a builders plat of a slant 40s !
You found an R-11 builder's plate?! I suspect you also have the key to the food locker...
#3 West End Jeff
Frank Hicks
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
An Ode To “CC Local” (To The Tune of “Tears On My Pillow”)
[1:]
You don't remember me
But I remember you
T'was not so long ago
We were teaming up.
[CHORUS:]
You at my window
Plodding along
on the CC Local
to Rockaway Park
[2:]
If we could do it once more
I wouldn't hesitate
I'd love to have you there
watching as I shine the way
[CHORUS:]
Stop after stop
for 26 miles
on the CC Local
to Rockaway Park
[3:]
Rolling Day in Day out
‘Neath the C-P-W
We made quite a team
I wish we still were
[CHORUS:]
They got on they got off
Across Brooklyn and into Queens
on the CC Local
to Rockaway Park
[2:]
You don't remember me
But I remember you
T'was not so long ago
We were teaming up.
[CHORUS:]
Stop after stop
for 26 miles
on the CC Local
to Rockaway Park
[CONCLUSION]
I wish we still were.....
----------------------------------------------------------
Get well, Pal!
ONE word WOW !
Oldest cars on the system
Four boroughs
Two hours
Bedford Park Blvd. to the Atlantic Ocean
the conductor rode ouside
pneumatic doors
Mayor O'Dwyer was in office when the R-10s went into service
Whew!
Get well CC!
Good luck to both of you.
While SubTALKers may engage in posting ad hominem attacks,
when one of ours is ill, that's when the real FAMILY within
this board comes together like butter...
A DOUBLE Get-Well to CC LOCAL from the 1SF9!
Meanwhile, T-Rex construction continues. The Park'n'Ride garage for the new University Blvd. light rail station is taking shape. IMHO they should put one of those up at Mineral Ave. Piers for most of the new light rail bridges over major arterials are in place. One bridge remains to be taken out at The Narrows portion of I-25: Emerson St. They'll leave it up for now until at least one more new bridge opens this summer, either Downing St. or Louisiana Ave. They took out the Logan St. bridge last week. Well, they finished taking it out. That blizzard we had three weeks ago put a damper on things.
They're starting to place steel girders for the light rail bridge over Broadway. Sounds like a photo op this weekend.
I took the D line downtown today and saw the following:
The new track alignment along Stout St. is in place and all D trains are now using it. They're shutting down the D line again this weekend to remove the last remaining temporary switch part. What they've done is realigned Stout St. to the north and west between Speer Blvd. and 14th St. to make room for expansion of the Colorado Convention Center. This includes the light rail tracks. They now go almost to Curtis St, running parallel for a few hundred yards before swinging back over to the original alignment at 14th St. You cab see where the new station will be. The line literally runs through the Convention Center, by the parking garage. There is even a scissor switch embedded in concrete - the first one in the entire light rail system.
The Broadway station is being expanded with the addition of a third track and a second boarding area. The canopy where the ADA ramp is going to be is already up, as are forms for the ADA ramp itself. The third track has not been installed yet, but you can plainly see its alignment. It's going to be west of the existing s/b track. I saw an artist's rendition of what that area is going to look like when the new Southeast Corridor line is finished. S/b trains to Mineral Ave. will use the new third track, which will continue south and merge with the existing s/b track before Mississippi Ave. The existing s/b track will be used by trains turning off to run along I-25 and the Southeast Corridor. AFAIK trains continuing south to Mineral will also be able to use it, depending on traffic. The main difference is that trains on the new third track won't be able to take one route or the other whereas trains on the future center track will. The new line will branch off less than 100 yards south of the Broadway station, and the retaining walls outlining the wye junction are already in place. One thing I'm not sure of is the layup track south of the station. Thye'll either have to eliminate it entirely or move it. Currently short-turn trains use it to relay back downtown. RTD has announced service cutbacks effective in May, eliminating the short-line Broadway-18th St. midday service.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
Adam
So the "storm doors" did not have the cream stripe.
R29/33ML/36ML were bright red.
R36 WFs were "Bluebirds"-World's Fair blue.
Prior to the mid-1960s, the Transit Authority did not wash their cars. All cars acquired "the color of borrowing animals" as one writer so eloquently put it.
When I was a kid, R-17's looked exactly the same to me as R-21's. The thick layer of soot hid the red paint. Later, when they started washing them, the red color had been marred by ground-in dirt that made them appear darker than the original color. To confuse matters further, in the early 1960s, many R-17's were painted fire-engine red to stylistically match the R-29-R36 models.
If you look at the R-17 photos on this site you will see trains that have original and repainted color schemes mixed together, so you can get an idea of the different shades of red that were used.
I went home (ie, to NYC) yesterday for a brief visit, and did a little railfanning. Got in a short M7 ride. Interesting. The AirTrain work at Jamaica is impressive. One thing that struck me as odd about the M7s is the reverse slider controller - full power is towards you, full brake is away (a reverse of the customary, as Ive seen).
I also went out to ENY to check out the Atlantic Ave Complex work, I switched from a canarsie-bound to manhattan-bound L train at Sutter Ave. I noted that the corridor walkway from the control house to the canarsie-bound platform is still wood. This must be one of a VERY FEW wooden walkways left in the system. The island platform bridge at Myrtle-Wyckoff was partially wood, it appears to be gone now. It would be interesting to document any others. Anyone care to comment?
BEST WISHES to all!
Conrad Misek
Boston
Actually, I can't think of too many wooden walkways, etc. There used to be an overpass connecting the two platforms at Myrtle-Broadway. That was a great old crossover/walkway. It was just west of the old Myrtle El tackways, and it used to connect the JMZ platforms together, and the southern end of it connected to a long stairway to the abandoned platform for the Myrtle El. Of course that was fenced off, but you used to be able to walk between the two current Myrtle platforms until about 1994 or 1995, when they removed it. You used to be able to walk up there and and see a train coming all the way from the WillyB, and a great view of the old el station while the station still existed to about 1992 or so.
Also an interesting observation for Sutter (and Livonia also), is that where the station mezzanine's stairways exist, there is such a little area where you can walk be between the railing and the track, as you can see in this photo of abandoned stairways at Sutter (the platform on the right had it's stairway removed, but you can see where it was. Safety sure wasn't much of a concern way back then.
Kool pix! See you've been there & done that. Agreed, Sutter Ave is quaint. I remember the Myrtle/Bway overpass too, good photo op. Too bad they didnt restore Marcy or Alabama ave, instead of just replacing the platforms altogether. BTW, I noted that the old Ridgewood Grove Arena is now a billiards hall. Is the air raid siren still atop Senecea Ave station platform canopy?
THANX!
And as for Sutter Avenue..........air raid siren still at that one!
I will one day get a chance to add more photos to it, of other locations throughout the Eastern Division, but there are some photos I have uploaded of Sutter in this Eastern Division album.
To warn the population of an impending air raid. (For more information check your history books regarding the 20th century.) :-)
Tom
While were on the subject of Sutter Ave., does anyone know what the red building next to the north end of the station is? It's only 1 story, and it used to have large picture windows. It seems to be too small to be a church, but it doesn't seem to be near any known railway stations, so I'm not sure if it is railroad-related.
An Update from Amtrak President Gunn on Federal Funding
Dear Amtrak Co-Workers:
You will recall that under a new arrangement set up by Congress, we must
seek quarterly grants from the US DOT for the funds that have been set
aside for us by Congress. Today, after many weeks of discussion with
the DOT, the agency approved our grant request and delivered the first
installment of the money.
A fourth-quarter funding request must still be made by us to DOT this
year, so I want to tell you how important it is to continue to stay on
budget.
After six months, we are favorable to budget on expenses and unfavorable
on revenue. I believe the revenue story is mostly written by the war and
the economy, but rationalizations are a mugs game. There is no choice.
We must make our budget, i.e, expense underruns must occur to offset the
drop in revenue. If we are successful, we will rebuild our credibility
and the public's confidence that we can capably manage and operate this
business.
That we have come as far as we have this year will be helpful to my
urging that we be fully funded next year as I testify before Congress
tomorrow. However, our performance to budget this year will have an
even bigger impact on our funding next year, as well as the DOT grant
process under which we are currently working.
Sincerely,
(s) David L. Gunn
There's a good posibility that I'll be able to do it next Friday 4/18.
Personally, I have that one Fun Pass that is burning a hole in my pocket & I just got a E-Z Pass today (no more TBTA tokens on the bridges in May)
Whatever happened to settling at a Nedicks' I believe, and going for a good 'ole foot-long?
I really like hotdogs. I especially like to get 'em with everything on 'em! Ketchup, mustard, relish and that white stringy stuff...damn I can't remember the name...
No stomach ache either :)
I guess it won't make a difference to my day, but it was great as a C/R with normal rush hour service but fewer people riding.
And the RFW will probably be easier to get to as well. :)
BTW, I just noticed that the 18th is Good Friday, so some need to find Kosher while others can't eat meat.
E-mail me privately if you think you can make it the 25th, thanks.
But the budget is the real question ...
"Pataki says clock ticking"
Path to state budget could be separate ways
(Times Union newspaper, no subscription required)
Bottom line, is if it goes in da chitter, it'll be subways or no subways ... but Paturkey's decided that ruling by decree is better than representative government. In other words, business as usual.
For example, Pataki has indicated he's willing to have the MTA "buy" land from the city to balance its budget, floating bonds to do it. This would have to be paid back with lower service or higher fares. He could do the same thing to suck out a few billion for the state budget.
Those aren't rocks. That's s__t.
(One thing I learned in state service is that FLOATS ROCKS.)
What dedicated taxes? The quarter-percent in the sales tax that's earmarked for public transportation? Pataki already takes the NYCT portion of that fund and spends it on upstate pork barrels - which is what forced the 1995 fare increase. (Then again, Joe Bruno's historic barn door DID need restoring....)
That quarter percent sales tax is the tip of the MTA iceberg. Corporations pay the bulk of the MTA's taxes. The corporate profits crash had as much as anything to do with the fare increase.
Up to now, the state and city have milked the MTA by removing tax revenues that are NOT dedicated. Pataki removed state financing from the MTA capital plan, counting MTA taxes as its contribution, while still using general state taxes (collected in part downstate) for transit elsewhere. Giuliani cut off operating funds to the MTA. So did the federal government. Now the city wants to eliminate its support for the capital plan, and its funding for the buses. Nassau stopped paying to maintain the LIRR stations.
Diverting actual MTA taxes, or fare and toll revenues, is a whole higher level of fund seizure. It would take a ruse, like the bonded "purchases" I described -- similar to having the state "sell" prisons and highways to public authorities back in the Cuomo recession. Beware.
I would think that the amount of money to be generated through such chicanery would be a mere drop in the bucket when compared to the city and state deficits. That probably would make it somewhat unlikely that the MTA will be "raided" and would have to resort to layoffs.
Elmer fudd
(oh yeah, on topic - arnine goes psshhhhh-shhhh ...)
Wait…that’s what the subway is!
ROTFLMAO!
There seemed to be a lot of activity on the radio, so I listened in. Apparently, the C/R on a 3 train noticed an unidentified person on an emergency exit staircase between Nostrand and Kingston. All 3 trains were sent express to bypass the scene. But wait! The express track at Utica was already clogged with just 4 trains, and now 3 trains had to also get through? There wasn't enough time to empty our train, so it, too, was sent through to New Lots, as was the 4 train in front of us. That's right, after Brian and I waited around on Sunday for R-33's on the Livonia line during the GO, I found myself on a set today completely by accident.
At New Lots the friendly T/O, who by then had figured out that I was railfanning, told me that the train would be going into the yard (rats!) and wished me a happy Passover, and I pulled out the camera out to document this momentous event. I let the next train come and go, and that's when two police officers approached me. A rule of thumb for fellow photographers: just tell them what you're doing. I tried to bluff. "What are you doing?" "Just waiting for a train." "But a train just left." "There'll be another one." Whoops. Foot planted firmly in mouth. Once I explained what I was really doing, they had no problem, although they did ask to see ID.
N8842-8843-9247-9246-9255-9254-9090-9091S
The number plates on 9295-9294 are thoroughly rusted over. Many of the seats in 9091 have their pre-GOH layers showing through, and one of the straps is bent.
One question, unrelated to all of this. While I was waiting at 86th, at about 4:09pm, a 4 train stopped on the SB track signed consistently for Bowling Green, and the C/R announced it as a 4 to Bowling Green. Is this an everyday occurrence? I thought all 4 trains ran all the way between Woodlawn and Utica (or New Lots, at night).
Incidentally, while riding NB around 4:45, I saw train -- I think it was a 4, R-142 -- stopped on the middle track at 138th, south headlights on. There were no passengers. By the time we returned SB, it was gone. Gap train? Short turn? None of the above?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
This was unexpected, but I could see it coming. When I heard that 3's were going express, I quickly realized that they couldn't possibly clear out 4's at Utica anymore -- and that meant through service to New Lots, or at least Pennsylvania (depending on whether the tower that controls the interlocking between Pennsylvania and Junius was manned). We were third in a four-train congo line on Livonia.
The only disappointing bit was that the train was laid up. I wonder where it is now. I was hoping that a 3 crew would take it up to 148-LT and an R-62A set would become a 4. (That isn't as outlandish as it sounds given the big swap that's about to begin.)
You can say I had a powerful imagination when I was younger. To this day I still have the HO Scale boxcars, but are waiting to be "reefed" in my 55 gallon fish tank.
Jimmy
SIRT Unknowns
I'll take a shot at img_24692.jpg, the R-44s. It looks like the overpass in the distance may belong to the (then) Richmond Parkway.
It's been a long time since I lived on SI - and longer since I "rode the rapid" to Tottenville, but that's what it looks like to me!
Chip
It looks more like the Staten Island Expressway (2 individual overpasses for traffic in each direction and a double-headed lamppost for the main and service roadways). This would out the picture just north of the Grasmere station.
--Mark
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe when the reconstruction for Corona commences, the 3rd rail throughout the yard will be upgraded.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=460536
It's my thread analyzing the supposed R142 test on the 7 way back then... Some people really come up with good stuff. Some of us think the test never happened!
I simply don't know why they were there. Presumably something was being tested, but was it something on the line itself or was it in the yard?
in corrona the are getting replased but wery slowly !
Wrong title, bro ! If this were 1969, it should read:
Why did the chicken cross the BMT tracks at East 105th St ?
You should know the IRT doesn't have grade crossings !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's because the third rail doesn't extend through the crossing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
But to be fair, I *really* like the stained glass work that they did at Franklin. That was *nice* ...
Is that E105 looking south?
2) The plats were a little ways down from the crossing, but I think they were protected by fencing.
Were the gates operated electrically or manually ? The crossing gates at South Amboy, NJ were operated manually by a gatekeeper in a shanty until 1983 !! I photographed this and chatted with the gate keepers, truly a throwback to an earlier age in the 1980's !
Bill "Newkirk"
Look at the picture below. The two windows nearest us (and a third you can't see) provided the gatekeeper's view of the crossing in three directions. The sorta white thingy at the near corner is the back of a mirror which enables the gatekeeper to see a train approaching from Canarsie.
But the last two stops I saw in 2001 bear NO resemblance at all to what I remembered, nor does the immediate neighborhood down there. I guess I should have paid more attention, but I was distracted by the rare BMT standard (Canarsie line was chock full of them at the time) and that grade crossing. Did that line a number of times, but it was 40 years between the two rides. I kinda liked it the way it was, but then again I LOVED the Myrtle El as well. I'm not a well person obviously. :)
I recall in the 60's when the surface ROW from New Lots Avenue to Rockaway Parkway was something akin to an interurban run, especially in the summer time. The Standards blended in very nicely and with that grade crossing and a little imagination you could be on a country rail line. Remember that the Statards had to sound the "standard' railroad signal for a grade corssing; one long-one short-two longs.
Unfortunately with the buildup of the area around the Canarsie Line and the construction of that warehouse next to the East 105 Street Station the line nowadays is more akin to an industrial side track.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Even in its heyday I don't think that Turnbull Avenue (or Road) was much of a throughfare. Someone here has described it as a cow-path and they may not be far from the truth.
For sure it wasn't a thoroughfare, and I guess a "cowpath" is not a bad description. But it was minimally driveable--I did it several times. But you didn't go very fast if you wanted to save your suspension--it was unpaved and seemed like it was rarely if ever graded.
Remember that the Statards had to sound the "standard' railroad signal for a grade corssing; one long-one short-two longs.
Not in my memory (1957 to the end of the crossing). Two longs approaching, then a full stop, then two shorts before crossing.
Standard RR practice is --o-. On the LIRR you hold the last long until you've actually entered the crossing.
Paul: You're absolutely right about the grade crossing signals. I had it right in my head but wrote it down wrong. I hear it every night at Peekskill and Manitou on the Hudson Line.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chicago's Els still have some grade-level rights-of-way on the Ravenswood and Douglas Park lines, complete with grade crossings over city streets. These work just like "railroad" crossings - gates, bells, flashing lights, and of course a gap in the 3rd rail to permit the street traffic to cross.
As to width of a crossing, I don't know if there is a published limit, but there would have to be a practical limit. There are some wide ones in Nassau County.
They seem to do that easily enough in West Brompton station ;-)
Peace
ANDEE
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
One thing we all have learned: wildlife and electric railway vehicles do not mix.
We have three operators that have 12-9'ed the above at various times.
Occasionally we have to hose the offending items off the running gear. (ick!!)
This is in the big city, not in the woods like Shore Line.
I'll disagree. Maybe in a Urban location as BSM they can't coexist,
but in a rural setting such as "Shore Line" they do. We haven't
had any 12-9s involving rodents or animals to the best of my
knowledge in 18 years. Now the deer, the 4 legged type,
are frequenting more often.
We do have one of the more scenic ROW, if you know what to look for. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Maybe not, but one of these days I'm going to bag us a guinea hen for supper :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Want "freedom fries" with that? :)
Peter,
When you cross the bridge behing the "Twin Pines" complex from
Farm River Road, East Haven to Alex-Warfield Road, Branford, town
maintenance ends. Alex-Warfield Road is a private street that is
the resposibility of the residence of same to maintain. That includes
the owners of 55 Alex Warfield Road, across the double set of tracks.
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peter,
When you cross the bridge behind the "Twin Pines" complex from
Farm River Road, East Haven to Alex-Warfield Road, Branford, town
maintenance ends. Alex-Warfield Road is a private road that is
the resposibility of the residence of same to maintain. That includes
the owners of 55 Alex Warfield Road, across the double set of tracks.
Besides, the highlighting of the collection of farm animals is a neat addition
to the pastoral setting of times past passing by on the "Trolley". >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Moo.
I guess John and Myself and others includes Got the "Slant" R40 FEVER !
I wish him a speedy recovery !
If the W can go to Stillwell, why can't the N?
Michael
confused in Washington, DC
P.S. - Stay Confused in DC.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
There are usually 4 platforms at Stillwell, but 3 of the 4 are gone for the reconstruction. The remaining platform is the one for the West End line, but there are connecting tracks so Sea Beach trains can reach that platform.
If you look at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn3.gif you can see that the connector is just an X crossover, so it can't be used for a high volume of trains, and certainly not to run both the N and the W, but there are few enough on the weekend that the trains from the Sea Beach can terminate there.
A
Riding that train last weekend showed that there ARENT few enough weekend trains that it wont get congested.
Well it doesn't help that the T/O on a northbound (W) hit the emergency brake at 25th Avenue Station, and the investigation as to why took about 30-40 minutes, I know because I got stuck @ Bay 50. I remember seeing the headlights behind me @ Stillwell (Bay 50 and Stillwell are above the same street) disappear to the left, and I was hoping it would go express, so I could get a shot of two W's one on the express track, but it turns out they just fixed the problem. It trailed us like a 6 or 7 in rush hour until I got off at 62nd Street. On weekend headways I would imagine, counting ours and the one in front, a total of 6 (possibly 7) trains were delayed by this. This was on Sunday, sometime around 2PM.
That's funny. If they did an investigation every time a Manhattan-bound (J) T/O hit the EB just to stop in time at Halsey after coming in faster than a downtown (4), the (J) and (Z) would never move.
The big problem with that is that the cars don't get cleaned anywhere.
And speaking of the weekend disruption, why can't the (N) run normal? Are they doing trackwork between 59 St and 8 Av too? There's no reason why two three-track lines should be served by only one train in only one direction. Unless the downtown express track construction was resticting on turning (N)s...then they should extend the (N) north and cut the (R) to a shuttle to 59.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Bill "Newkirk"
if the option order is taken the remaining R40M, and R42MK would be the next to go
It is possible that some R32 or R44(if this class hasnt been scrapped already) will be replaced by another option order
All of this is uncertain, most of it does not come directly from the MTA, and some of it is me guessing(meaning: if this is wrong, dont blame me :) )
NO R46s, 68s, or 68As will be replaced by this order(unless they get MAJOR problems, or have accidents)
--Mark
As for Expo cars - I don't know.
wayne
Seems to me the LIRR back then wasted a large fleet of middle aged cars to replace just about everything with M1s. I guess that rendered all the MUs including mid 50's and even newer - surplus.
wayne
These ACMUs are from the same era as the LIRR "ZIP"s and for whatever reason, MNCR has been able to maintain them as self propelled electrics. They were not turned into diesel hauled trailers nor were they sent to the scrapper.
MNCR kept their ACMUs in service all this time alongside M1s, M3s and everything else they own. And MNCRs reputation with their riding customers is probably better than that of the LIRR. Nobody seems to mind riding in the old ACMUs.
Sure makes me wonder why LIRR couldn't/wouldn't/didn't do the same as MNCR.
The Expo Express Fleet consisted of 48 cars arranged in eight 6 cars sets. The trains were made up as follows
A01 SE Cab Motor Generator
B02 Blind Motor Air Compressor
C03 Blind Motor Air Compressor
D04 Blind Motor Generator
E05 Blind Motor Air Compressor
F06 SE Cab Motor Generator.
The cab cars had bulbous glass fronts not unlike the SOAC Cars. Since these were six cars sets and SIRT to this day doesn't operate trains that long. The cost of breaking up the sets and installing cab controls may have been prohibitive.
Montreal did retain the Expo Express trains for several years after the close of the fair. They were stored on Ile Ste.Helene. Unfortunately the tracks leading to the LaRonde Amusement Area which I belive were located on Ile Notre Dame were removed. This was a curious decision because the yard and shops were located next to the LaRonde Station.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
--Mark
This station is really a shame. They just re-did all the tiling work and it's already deteriorated dramatically. Is there anything that can be done to prevent this?
-W
Toilet backed up ?
Cascading water is more than just run off from melting snow. Could mean something serious. Wonder if anyone alerted the station manager of this station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Just kidding.
It is being rebuilt, and the part above the Atlantic Avenue station is an open mess. Maybe that's the problem. Now that I think about it, perhaps rebuilding it from the bottom up was a mistake.
Yes, the steel skeleton is rising rapidly, but it's all still open, which means the snow piled up and melted off. Hopefully, that's all the water was, it didn't do much damage, and it won't happen again.
Uptown (W) trains make all stops on Fourth Ave and run on 6th Ave in Manhattan...All downtown (W)s skip Dekalb, Union, 9, Prospect, 25 Sts...No (N) service between 36 and Whitehall, no (R) between 59 and Canal...Uptown (Q) trains run on 6th Ave, every 24 mins...No (B) south of 34...No (D) between 34 and Prospect Park...All Manhattan-bound (2) and (4) service is express and Brooklyn-bound service is local...All (5)s end at BG...No (3) at all...
My guess is the reason for the waterfall on the brighon platform at atlantic ave is that the costruction of the building. The subway station roof is the new building. Once the building is complete the waterfall will stop.
This building skeleton went up quick. The building arose out of the existing foundation of the rail complex.
At this rate the building should open by mid 2004
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/northfulton/0403/10train.html
We STILL have a vote ... with our wallets ... :)
Seriously, the Crossgates Mall's security people were more than likely caught between a rock and a damn hard place with respect to that ruckus. My experience has been that security (management) kowtows to the client's wishes damn fast regardless of the situation it leaves the people who wear the uniforms in (standing over cars for 13 hours at a time, going for hours in 35+'C without water and shade breaks etc). The kowtowing happens even faster when the security's an in house affair as it is in most malls, since the mall's management is also the security management.
However, the management of Crossgates deserves to lose businiess over that mess.
-Robert King
Needless to say, the biggest mall in the area is now pretty much a tomb and stores are closing left and right and moving across the highway to Colonie Center. And STILL they're thumbing their noses at the locals. OK ...
Any time free to come out to Voorheesville? Promise I won't tell da Sheriff you're "underage" and I'm sure he won't object either as he serves you a beer from our company bar. Heh.
I'm doing propulsky (Alstom PCE) downloads and go into an office with a Roosky woman engineer that has no freakin idea of what she is reading from the DLs. Trainsets are full of crap. I DL 14 systems in the morning praying not to have computer crashes and have to go back in the afternoon to recheck/clear/eliminate system lockouts AND go undercar to reset any systems in fault. MOAB MOAB MOAB InsAllah.
I'm in touch with an engineer who posts on TrainWeb/tecnical pages.
it was about wheel gauging...sent him a ton of stuff. The link he previously sent was of stories and I'll paraphrase:
Railroads are like elephants attempting to copulate. They're big and fat, have trouble fitting together and take eighteen months of gestation.
Rooskies maintain launch sequences/latitudes/longitudes. Fat chance they would blow up their own nuke plants in Iraq before getting paid.
Saving my story about cheesies in CI Rodeo for SelkirkTMO. CI peter
BUT easy with Russian comments
Vlad just another Roosky
ps by any chance do you where ican get my hands on NYC subway car drawings ? it is for model trying to recreate the ta's museum fleet !
thanks Vlad From Brooklyn
Seriously, the Russian crew members are a bit clannish and want to work closer to home in Brooklyn. With increasing seniority, they can pick out to 'Little Odessa'.......Coneys Island Ovehaul/Maintainance Shop. They don't accept well of outsiders and it took a long time for them to recognise that I'm there to lend a hand and be of help.
Guyz picking out will be missed by me and I'm wondering what will replace them. This crew is not kids....it's 'fiftiesh' in age. Just like me. CI Peter
It's unfortunate that people choose to limit their options - I suspect this is what's behind a lot of Unca Peter's ribbings of his buddies. What America is about is that you're limited ONLY by your own attitudes, whatever directions those take. "Outside help" can be turned around into "Inside help" ... there's a lot of talent there to be shared, nurtured, and brought to bear. Sorry for lecturing but I grew up among MANY cloistered immigrants in my day in their own little "ghettos" ... fortunately their CHILDREN saw the light and seized the opportunities that you have to make for YOURSELF.
(soapbox now stowed) ...
Yeah, Colonie Center was the area's dump. CruiseGates was the shining castle on the hill. Colonie Center is the epicenter of the cultural revival, komrade. And to think - this is probably one of the most extreme right wing areas you can imagine and around here, stomping on the free speech of liberals isn't tolerated either. I'm PROUD of our locals for showing CrossGates that "shut up and shop" is not an option.
After Sept 11 2001,everything changed in this country.There have been checkpoints everywhere,from the airlines to the tunnel and bridge crossings.Recently this level of heightned awareness was implemented on the railroads.While this may seem all safe and good,it does not solve the problem.The 19 men who caused all of the death and destruction were all from the AlQueda which is a militant islamic fundamentalist group.I know that this is a very small minority of people,probably less than a tenth of a percent.I to have friends who are muslin who are very decent people,who disagree with me very strongly about this topic.My whole point I was trying to say yesterday,is even though this AlQueda group is very small,they are also very dangerous,and threaten more terrorist acts against this country.Stanley Crouch,a highly respected coloumnist who writes for the Daily News,has said in past articles,that although it may be disturbing,anyone in this country who is muslim,or of middle eastern descent has to be checked out.Lets say we check out 500,000 muslims,and out of those 500,000 we find 10 who are associated with AlQueda,we just prevented another terrorist attack.For decent,peaceful muslims,this may seem like "profiling"but what are we supposed to do?As far as what I said yesterday,if anyone read what I said,I said that anyone on this board,was not a terrorist and should,not be looked as one,or treated like one.If however you are a muslim or of middle eastern descent,and taking pictures,you should be watched more closley,dont blame me,blame AlQueda,they set the precedent.Does anyone remember what happened in August of 1997,when a group of terrorists were planning to blow up a subway station in Park Slope,the only reason it was stopped was because one of the people in the group went to the police?Anyway,now I have explained myself.This is only MY opinion.If some of you want to call me racist,bigoted,or stupid or evil,or any or all of those,go ahead,it does not bother me.I just wanted to explain my side.
David,if you are reading this thread and want to remove me from this website,you can if you want to.I however would like to continue posting about high speed trains and about how the the MTA stands for (mostly timers actually)and of course my favorite topic,those ripping arcing high-voltage catenarys that I love so much.Thanks to all who read this.
As for what you said: Would it be fair to start targeting ALL white people if the KKK started lynching people again?
If you want to be technical about it, we really ought to check everyone. The guys behind the Oklahoma City bombing were white, Christian fundamentalists. They didn't use a plane, but maybe they will next time.
Face it, people of any faith, skin color, race, background can go crazy and blow up a place with a bunch of people. Profiling one particular group isn't going to help.
Even our own administration seems to know the difference here. Let's just drop this altogether, no good can come of it. There's looney tunes in just about every religion who defile the religious affiliations they proclaim.
I think the difference is that the government and "establishment" consists primarily of White Christian not-quite-so-Fundamentalist guys.
None of this is grounds for suspension of civil liberties, but it is grounds to be slightly wary of everyone, regardless of appearance. If I were running a farming supply store in rural America somewhere, I wouldn't be selling ammonia based fertilizer to anyone I hadn't known for 20 years, no matter what they looked like.
600volts thats one fried cat ! LOL
LOL
Justin but dont forget that called off the fight becous he thaught that he woul get jeil time for assalt !
i was expecting Him in a "hospital" and no not the mntal one ! LOL
"Let's say we check out 500,000 Muslims and out of those 500,000 we find 10 who are associated with Al Qaeda. We just prevented another terrorist attack. For decent, peaceful Muslims this may seem like 'profiling' but what are we supposed to do?"
Jay Zee BMT says:
If we WERE to "check out" half a million Muslims and found ten bad guys, we would NOT prevent another attack. All that would be accomplished is we would have captured 10 bad guys, at the cost of trampling the rights and dignity of 499,990 decent people. If you can't recognize that this is profiling, and wrong, you need to go back and read history. Terrorists get caught by good, solid detective work, not by racial or religious profiling.
As a railfan, you should be aware that we have PLENTY of security in our stations and on our trains, and ANYONE can be a terrorist regardless of appearance. As Kool-D pointed out in another post, he and many others of the Islamic faith are railfans, as well as citizens of the United States. They have the same rights as you do to be let alone.
Remember also that millions of people came to our country from all over the world to escape religious persecution in their homelands. By advocating the profiling of half a million Muslims merely because they are Islamic, you're encouraging religious and racial persecution against them. That is as unpatriotic as you can be! Vigilance does not mean viciousness.
You don't realize how awful profiling can be. My sons will grow up to be young Black males. God help them when they have to go forth as the most TARGETED segment of our society. Remember the profiling on the NJ Turnpike? Thousands of Black motorists were improperly harrassed by NJSP for the capture of about 3% of those stopped. That's NJSP's own figures, as heard at the racial profiling trials in 1997. How many lives were disrupted by this that didn't hasve to be? I don't want my kids, or anyone else's kids, to be subject to degradation and humiliation because they are being "profiled". I don't think we need to do this to Muslims, either.
I hope you one day have the courage to experience the knowledge of your own psyche, because you do seem to have tolerance issues.
By the way, talking about terrorism in NYC:The bomb at Laguardia Airport Terminal in the late 70's was by FALN, Puerto Ricans, not Muslim.The bombing of Aeroflot Airlines on 5th Av was by the JDL, a Jewish group.Fraunces Tavern bombing was by FALNPolice Headquarters and Federal Plaza on New Years Eve '82-'83 was also by FALNRandom Shooting of cops by the BLA was by BlacksNone of the above was by Muslims. (except possibly 1 or 2 BLA members were Black Muslims) And yet all were terrorism in NYC. So should we also stereotype White Jews, Hispanics, and Blacks???
Mr Bloggs is a criminal
Mr Bloggs is an Episcopalian
therefore all Episcopalians are criminals
or its modified form:
Mr Bloggs is a criminal
Mr Bloggs is an Episcopalian
therefore Episcopalians are likely to be criminals
Should we check out and harass every black male in South Central LA or Brownsville because he could be a card-carrying Crip or Blood? How many people have the Bloods and Crips and Latin Kings killed, robbed and terrorized and sold poison to over the years? Al-Queda killed 3,000 in one fell swoop, sure, but the gangs in South-Central LA alone have racked up a lot more damage, accumulated, over decades.
I fully supported our actions in Afghanistan to hunt down Al-Queda and make them pay. I support what we're doing in Iraq (though there are risks). But part of being patriotic and loyal to our nation is upholding the Constitution (which ol' Stanley needs to brush up on).
New York will recover from 9/11, and will be better than it was. We will all be stronger. We don't need vigilante-style crap and wholesale suspensions of the Constitution to do it.
NOT ONCE DID YOU EVEN GAVE A HINT OF APOLOGY TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE OFFENDED (INCLUDING MYSELF) ABOUT YOUR MISGUIDED REMARKS DIRECTED AT MUSLIMS TAKING PICTURES IN THE SUBWAY.
I say misguided because you NEVER complared the flip side of the coin as to how the media brandishes certain classes of people right away. Take the 4/1996 OKC bombing by Timothy Mcveigh and Terry Nichols. Immediately after the TRAGIC incident, the media rushed to judgement saying the bombing may be the work of Islamic fundmentalists (which is NOT Islam and the Quran, our "bible"). Days later, we find our that the culprits were not Arabs overseas, but 2 men from the armed forces who belong to a right-wing facist militia group.
And to add you insult, I attended a NY Div. of ERA fan-trip saying goodbye to the R33 redbirds last year. I took pictures like everyone else in this happy group. I even joined in the group photos, yet I am white and muslim, and proud to enjoy this discussion group about a hobby I loved since I was only 4 (seeing the R34 trains at Prospect Park, running as the Franklin Ave shuttle was my earliest memory.)
So Arcing, think about the words you said. You made a lot of enemies here in the past 48 hours.
link to story
Escapes death? Sounds like he failed to escape life.
I hope I didn't give then ideas!
Hmmm, maybe it could be used if there's a sequel to Jackass: The Movie.
He'll be taking the subway home from the hospital, I assume?
Wouldn't wanna hafta repost our condolences blindly...
Vlad
"Published Monday, April 7, 2003, by US Plastic Lumber
U.S. Plastic Lumber Announces Railroad Tie Sales To The New York and
San Francisco Bay Transit Authorities
BOCA RATON -- U.S. Plastic Lumber Corp. (Nasdaq:USPL), announced
today that it's Engineered Products group has signed new contracts
to supply Duraties(R), its recycled Composite railroad ties, to the
New York Transit Authority and San Francisco Bay Area Transit
Authority.
Mark S. Alsentzer, Chief Executive Officer of USPL, said, 'We are
excited that transit authorities throughout the country continue to
choose Duratie(R) as a viable and value-added replacement to
traditional railroad ties, such as wood, steel or concrete. Our
Composite railroad ties have significant benefits, including reduced
maintenance and a life expectancy many times that of wood.'
Mr. Alsentzer concluded, "With over 10 - 15 million wood railroad
ties replaced annually in the United States, we continue to believe
that there is a significant opportunity for USPL to capture a
percentage of this market."
USPL's DuraTie Composite railroad ties are made of recycled plastic
and fiberglass for durability and strength. Benefits include a
greater life expectancy over wood ties; no hazardous materials used
or needed to have or maintain insect and rot resistance; no
hazardous materials generated; and, no seepage of hazardous
materials into the environment. USPL's railroad ties are
nonconductive and do not absorb water, like wooden ties, and help
eliminate the effects of stray-current corrosion of track hardware
in electrified mass transit systems, while significantly extending
the life of the railroad ties.
The American Railway Engineering and Maintenance-of-Way Association
is developing specifications for plastic composite railroad ties.
Wood ties are replaced in the United States at a rate of
approximately 10-15 million ties annually."
--------------------------------------------------------
Interesting, huh?
You know, before that Korean disaster I would have said "great." Now I'm worried. Do they burn, and what do they emit if they do.
Again, I don't know its the same material mentioned in this article but apparently some plastic composites will burn easily.
From memory, (my Dad used to run a fibers company), polyester carpets have good wear, reasonable static electicity resistance and are easy to clean.
I think the ties are polythene/polypropylene/polybutylene with filler. The same materials they are making boardwalks out of.
BTW: I don’t believe that flammability is any better/worse than wooden ones, which are soaked in creosote and other preservatives, probably including arsenic, like deck timbers. I wouldn’t want to be around the wooden ties burning at all!
John
Elias
Seriosuly, as a MUSEUM we'll need to continue to do it in the old way.
You've just got to see the "Electric Chair" that he uses to bore holes in a rail, it's a genuine antique, no cordless power drills for us ! We have two, wonder how many exist in the World, let alone still function ?
P.S. Al, breaks over back to work < grin >
Mark
Hayos
You can specify the amount - just make sure it is in multiples of $2.
Example: You can buy a $4 card for 2 rides, a $6 card for 3 rides.
If you are going to do a lot of rides in one day (4 or more) there will be the $7 Fun Pass which will be good for the day you first use it up to 3AM the next day.
There has been no word as to how a single ride (aside from the single ride cards sold in the MVMs) will be handled at the booths.
As those of us here find out more information rest assured it will be posted on this board/
Hayos
A brand new MetroCard is usually valid for a bit over a year (check the date on the back). If you don't use it up by then, don't worry -- you have another full year to transfer the value onto a new card. You can do that by asking at the booth or by trying to add value at a machine (the machine will trade it in for you and you can walk away without actually refilling it). After that date, it's gone for good.
The current card has a purchase minimum of $3, this is likely to go up to $4 because otherwise the paper SingleRide ticket becomes redundant. These are available only at MVMs.
This feature will be valuable in the interim period. Suppose I have a card with $1.50 left on it on the morning of May 4th. To use the money left most effectively, I will want to add $.50 plus some multiple of $2.00 in MTA dollars (where I can get 12 MTA dollars for $10 US dollars).
My question of idle curiosity and total lack of importance is: suppose I add $12.50 in MTA dollars and pay by credit card. Will I be charged $10.50 in US dollars, or only $10.42?
There doesn't appear to be any way to bring the balance of such a card to below ten cents until the fare is raised again (assuming all transactions are in increments of $2).
TWU LOCAL 100 "WE MOVE NEW YORK"
Could this have been early in the morning?
FTR, the datestamp is Wednesday, August 1, 1998, so a GO is possible but unlikely.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We Are?
We Are?
[end mode]
[begin mode="grouchy old man"]
Yes, we are... or at least those of us with the maturity to accept differing points of view.
[end mode]
:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
take care
wayne
He gave me a funny look and was quiet for a minute. Then he said, "why would they be concerned about me?
This sort of sappy dialogue is not something one would ever speak in real life, but would write a part of a dramatic fiction designed to elisit sympathy. Moreover, this sentiment is not at all reflected in the content or demenor of CC's previous posts.
To me this whole medical episode has seemed rather contrived from day one and Dave's recounting of the tale never fails to mention particiularly depressing episodes from CC's life that are sure to evoke the maximum sympathy from the average person.
If CC is truely sick I am sorry for my accusation and I hope he gets well soon. It is totally possible that "Dave's" account is in fact the truth, however as much as SubTalk is a community it is still an internet forum and we need to take everything on the internet with several table spoons of salt. For me this whole medical episode has raised a giant "fishy" flag and I would feel derilict in my duty as a SubTalk community member if I didn't raise my concearns. To whomever this "Dave" is, all I have to say is faking something like this is the height of "not cool". I am not looking to start a war here, I am not demanding proof. All I want to say is that I am holding you within the scope of the SubTalk honour system. I hope you find it within your honour to tell the truth here on SubTalk. I will speak of this no more and if you continue to post as you have been I will accept what you say as the truth ON YOUR HONOUR. Please, don't let me down.
Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:52:29 EDT
i got an email from cc with the subject line GOING TO HOSPITAL:
Body of the email !
...just called my brother to take me to the emergency room. Bad chest pains....will talk to you soon. CC
I understand there's a friendship here, but if I needed immediate medical attention, I would not waste my time sending e-mails to people who I know cannot help me.
but i do find it fishy And he told me He is 46 !
Watch it, kid, or I'll hit you with my cane!!
I'm younger than SlowBeach Fred, and he's only 62.
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously something beyond your comprehension.
You might be taken more seriously by some of the older folks here if you'd stop sprinkling your posts with foul language. From what you've said in your posts I know that you're 18 or 19, but your language is that of a twelve year old punk who's trying to impress the nine and ten year old kids with how "tough" he is. Well, it impresses us too... but it's not a very good impression.
Parental mode = OFF.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully there wont be a next time with you !
Regards Vlad
im just loockinf for drwing in Ho scle or any other scle but preferably Ho for R 16 , R27/30 and "Slant" R40 !
IF any on of you can help me it is for a modeling project !
Thanks for the Help !
Best Wishes !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the Slants !
-Nick
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7223.jpg
if it is it was on inspection most likely !
Vlad
Thanks !
-Nick
thanks
thanks !
Vlad
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
thanks
train dude works for TA ?
(As we've SADLY learned these last three ST days you don't get
credit NOR swine attention unless you check into Bellevue..)
Yeah, that makes sense.
I also noticed you stopped using ATTN and started using TO. I guess you figured I wouldn't catch on to that similarity either?
And it is Not "SLANT R40" genius It is N_Slant_40 !
Got it !
and speaking of Slant R40 "John" Only called me that when he emiled me privetly !
Compare the messege
A http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=474737
first messege of cc illnes
and the last one http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=475642
on the first one you could click the name and see his emial but on the other one you cant !
i dont think aregular owner would change settings/cookies if he was in a hurry !
New York City Transit investigation into the death of one of two track workers struck by subways in November has concluded that a supervisor was at fault for asking the victim to interrupt his work as a flagger of oncoming trains.
The finding, in a report released Tuesday, comes after an extensive review and several changes in safety procedures for subway workers. The investigation focused on the death of Joy Antony, 41, a signal maintainer who was struck Nov. 21 on the tracks near the 96th Street station on the No. 3 line.
The other worker, Kurien Baby, 57, a lighting technician, was struck and killed the next day by an E train near the Canal Street station. That event remains under investigation by the transit agency.
Among its conclusions in the case of Mr. Antony, which were disclosed yesterday in The Daily News, the transit agency said his supervisor on the day he was killed, Deanroy Cox, violated safety rules. The report said "appropriate action" should be taken against him.
Paul Fleuranger, a spokesman for the transit agency, said that Mr. Cox had been placed on modified duty and that a disciplinary hearing would be held later in April.
Local 100 of the Transport Workers Union sharply criticized the decision to single out Mr. Cox and said transit officials were trying to make one supervisor a scapegoat for senior management's broad failure to provide adequate safety precautions.
Union officials said that the problem was in staffing levels and that Mr. Antony's death would have been prevented if an additional worker had been assigned to his crew. It said Mr. Cox pulled him away from his flagging assignment because he was needed to work on a subway signal.
Mr. Cox "basically had to chose between flagging protection and getting his work done," said John Samuelsen, a spokesman for Local 100. "He's a symptom of a much larger problem and is now being used by management as a scapegoat."
Mr. Samuelsen said the union would defend Mr. Cox against dismissal even though, as a supervisor, he is not a member of the union.
The deaths of two subway workers in November prompted a wide review of safety measures and several changes, some stemming from discussions with union officials.
One result has been greater use of a warning system known as full flagging, in which workers place several blinking warning lights along the tracks, post someone as a lookout and install an emergency device on the tracks to stop a train if it runs past the signals.
Transit officials have not agreed to an arbitrary minimum number of workers assigned to jobs like the one Mr. Antony was on when he died. Mr. Antony was one of two workers supervised by Mr. Cox, and union officials maintain that there should have been at least three in Mr. Cox's crew.
The agency report said the "primary causal factor was on the part of Mr. Cox, who asked Mr. Antony to perform other duties while he was flagging and failed to ensure that proper flagging was established."
i wish ! Thn i would be working for the TA
ps do you know where i can get drawings of subway cars ?
thanks !
beats me, I don't work for TA. I guess you ask the subway car manufacturer. What r u gonna do with these drawing?
Vlad
Vlad
http://www.natransit.com/video/31.mpg
Respecting the Past - Celebrating the Present - Embracing the Future
NA Transit - Transit Sounds
http://www.natransit.com/sound
NA Transit - Video Club
http://www.natransit.com/video
Regards,
Stephen Lam
(Gillig Phantom)
or point to: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/74420p-68854c.html
but i think the are going to shut down a smaller yar pike pitkin o livonia and fire half of the emplois !
NYC Transit's subway car fleet is growing, not shrinking. A fleet needs yard space, and it needs car shop space. These problems become more acute as fleet size increases. Pitkin and Livonia store hundreds of subway cars (cars that would otherwise have to be stored on the mainline, where, even if there were room for them, they would be subject to constant vandalism) and their associated shops are responsible for inspections and running repairs on hundreds of cars.
David
2. Work trains and other non-passenger equipment don't need storage space and shop space?
David
i did !
2. Work trains and other non-passenger equipment don't need storage space and shop space?
they do but not the whole yard 207th got some space !
David Do you work For TA ?
We have that problem at the Seashore Trolley Museum, and it adds a significant amount of time as cars are shifted -- often blocking "revenue" track.
An NYCTA yard with some spare room is a happy yard.
Who told you that? Are you an NYCT employee who has physically walked through those yards at, say 2 AM, when those yards have their maximum number of layups?
nope but i live close to CI and Sometimes i do Late night walks if i cant sleep !
Those yards store active A & C trains while these cars are not needed for service. 207Yd maintains R38's.
Pitkin maintains R32's and R44's.
pitkin only works with 44s
the 32s are at 207th since lasth mounth !
Livonia maintains R62A's from line 3. The yards at both ends of line 3 are full during the midnight hours since the line does not operate.
My mistake
I hope I am not exaggerating your original post, but NYCT will not close any yards unless the routes they serve are also closed down which ain't gonna happen!
I hope You Are Right !
The way you worded that it seems like you were trying to say that the 32s were transferred FROM Pitkin TO Jamaica.
Or a new yard. I believe Sunnyside Yard is scheduled to become an all new subway yard. From what I've read, it will be the 'CI' of Jamaica...and what...Flushing!? The thing is, I don't know where they would tunnel. If anything, ride a 7 and look out the window or walk along the bridge viaduct and you can see that new track/wood have been layed there... Hmm, I wonder what they're for?
The place is pretty packed
Sorry guys don't have the link, but I think it was on the same page as the SAS project.
Someone is not reading the thread. This came from a suggestion that the TA should close a yard and lay off half the people there. Locating a new yard would not be a solution to the problem that was put forth (reducing TA expenses).
Tom
And I posted that the TA had already stated that they do not have enough storage space for Subdiv. B, so closing a yard would be impractical.
What happened at Sunnyside was that around 1990 Amtrak was interested in giving up part of the yard site, and NYC Transit was interested in buying it. A few years later, Amtrak decided that it needed the space after all and decided not to sell.
David
I don't know if we have Roger Twocents to thank for this.
David
That often happens in the News. The headline is more sensational than the article and totally unjustified by the contents.
I'm hoping they'll come up with a furlough plan for those other than the people actually running and fixing the trains and buses. I'm so pressed for time at home, relative to the office, these days that I'd consider a 20 percent reduction in hours for a 20 percent reduction in pay. I'd come in extra or work at home when the workload was peaking. I'd say I could cut my hours by 15 percent with no reduction in work done. Essentially, that's the deal I had at City Planning. The MTA isn't as flexibile.
In other words, suspend people for some amount of time, even though they've done nothing to warrant disciplinary action of any kind. The trial-lawyer crowd will love that one.
The proposal I heard for the state, and what I had in mind, was voluntary furloughs, not suspensions.
or point to: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/74420p-68854c.html
I do wonder though how the MTA can figure out staffing levels when there's no state budget, nor even a HINT of one forthcoming anytime soon. And it was DUE April 1 ... :-\
thats why we got Bill "The Dick" Gates !
lol
There is plenty of room for layoffs or reduction in work force by attrition
David
"The 817 reductions will be made in administrative and support staff and were detailed in the 2003 budget which was approved by the Metropolitan Transit Authority Board. Officials said there are no plans to lay off any employees and said any reductions will be made through efficiencies and attrition. "
I don't know if this is accurate. Also "Officials said there are no plans to lay off any employees" I guess administrative personnel and support staff (WTF would that be?) don't count as employees. They're more like chimps with passes I guess.
Reductions could be obtained by leaving unfilled position empty, retirement or people simple leaving to work somewhere else.
In the early days of a Subtalk chatroom, I noticed that the hours would go by very quickly, but afterward I didn't know what had been said. It was chatter. I suppose it filled up the void, but it was illusory, as the chatter had no meaning either.
Subtalk has progressively become Subchat. Just chatter. That I listen to it and partake in it is a sad commentary on the emptiness of my own life...
So true, when it becomes more important that there are 1,000 posts in one day rather than 200 intelligent on topic posts, we have all lost something. :-(
Tom
I used to post every day before the "surge". Now, it's usually not worth it. However, the dirt covering the gold does not negate the value of the gold. I can tell you that I won't be chased away by the chatter, but maybe the issue could be handled via an IM trading area to open up another channel to relieve this one.
There is nothing wrong with 13 or 14 year olds posting to Sub Talk. It is only a problem when it becomes painfully obvious to all that they are 13 or 14 years old.
Tom
Mark
Chuck Greene
we need more threads about the slow hippos !
A turtle could race A 68 in and beat it !
how much we all hate the R142's
im guessing as soon as R 160s ML Arive !
92% of the post would be about them !
And a remarkably high number of the messages don't say anything more than: "Good point," "I agree," or "Thanks for posting that."
Um, what did you say?
--Mark
On the sharp curve between Chambers Street and Park Place on the 2/3, the GT is set to 15 mph. However, the distance between the stations is so short that the front car is at the Park Place station (and out of the GT zone) before the end car has left the Chambers Street station. The T/O, of course, will increase speed once he or she has cleared the last of the GT signals.
So, why is the speed for the "front" of the train restricted to 15 mph, but it is ok for the rear to get up to, say 25 mph?
It is against TA rules (and grounds for termination) for a T/O to allow the rear of a train to travel 10 mph faster than the front. :-)
Tom
WDs can be as inaccurate as GTs, so you'll possibly get WDs set for 25 that will only "clear" at 15-20 anyway.
1SF9
Entendido.
Timers on the other hand are a different matter, and are controling the approach speed of a train, rather than the speed of a curve or of the next block. If a train aproaches the curve at 15 mph, then it will be able to negetoiate the curve safely. The GT says noting about block occupancy or route alignments.
When driving a car, I enter a curve more slowly, but then pick up speed once into the curve. Entering the curve entails a change in direction of travel, once the wheelsets are aligned to the curve, you may again accelerate.
On the other hand, there was a carnival ride called the whip, you always wanted to ride in the last car of that thing because that is where the ride was the most exciting. But this entailed a sudden change in vectors that does not occur in railway geometry.
Elias
Ozzy Osbourne - Crazy Train lyrics
Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as fools
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love
And forget how to hate
Mental wounds not healing
Life's a bitter shame
I'm going off the rails on a crazy train
I've listened to preachers
I've listened to fools
I've watched all the dropouts
Who make their own rules
One person conditioned to rule and control
The media sells it and you live the role
Mental wounds still screaming
Driving me insane
I'm going off the rails on a crazy train
I know that things are going wrong for me
You gotta listen to my words
Yeh-h
Heirs of a cold war
That's what we've become
Inheriting troubles I'm mentally numb
Crazy, I just cannot bear
I'm living with something that just isn't fair
Mental wounds not healing
Who and what's to blame
I'm going off the rails on a crazy train
IF any on of you can help me it is for a modeling project !
Thanks for the Help !
Best Wishes !
Vlad
N_Slant_40
Save the Slants !
tried that none well red caboose is out of stock and im not whating for a mounth to get the book !
but thanks anyway
It is a nighttime scene with a full moon near a city. A R17 car in red livery (with no car number) is portrayed as a balloon with a basket below. In the basket is a child with a teddy bear.
The car is signed on the visable end as "6 LEX" with no destination sign showing just a white sign.
I forget the arist's name but I think this work is nicer than the 2 previous ones.
I don't know if the TM store has these in stock yet.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
True, but I'd rather get more stuff for my $18 then just one poster. When I bought the regular posters @ $8 each, I bought three at one time. That was $24 that went to a good cause, but more importantly, I got three items for that money.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I don't understand what that means. Are you saying you have redbird parts you can give me? Because I'd really like some, I just don't want to spend the $300 worth that the MTA requires to place an order with them.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
It is quite lovely, and I was thinking of using 6688 as a balloon and going on many journeys with the old gal.
6688 is #1!
-Stef
-Stef
The artwork is heavy on dark/black and should not be scanned at size to print. Hopefully, a poster will digipic to post a small rendition
in correct aspect ratio. A fullsize belongs on my rollaway # 6688. Gauges have been collected and tools thrown away. Handed another brake handle...useless for New Tech but great for whacking sense into dead brains and stuck R142 brake keys. Ho Ho Ho Down in the hole DOWN IN THE HOLE B I E Air Discharge COVER YOUR EARS. CI Peter
Peter, apparently no one else saw your posting (if you did one on it )either becaue it would have been mentioned by someone right after I posted.
As for you having the cards in your hand - naughty, naughty.
They have the card!! The cost is $8.00 plus 66 cents (sales tax) for a total of $8.66.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I went to the TM store and the Art Card was in fact $12, $12.99 with tax. I was disappointed, but I bought one anyway. Why did you say they were only $8?
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Needless to say, it was the V I wanted.
By the time the V had shown up, I was sitting on a D that had arrived, figuring that if it left first, I could change for the E at 7th. The B did leave first, but I didn't want to play the platform game.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
There are more F's than V's, so there has to be some sort of time where there will be 2 F's in a row.
When I'm in that position, I wait on the uptown platform. If a D leaves first, great. If an F or V pulls in, I take it one stop and wait there instead, so I can also get the B.
The annunciators seem to be of little use. IINM, they chirp when a train is arriving or has just left. I suppose, in that case, it's safe to assume that the train on the other track will be the next one out.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
2nd Ave works on an automatic feature and if the Fs were on top of each other, they would keep hitting that magic point at 2nd Ave which would give them the lineup. F has priority at 2nd Ave.
You guys don't honestly think they care about alternation, do you? Especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn (4 Av/DeKalb). When a delay or something happens, whatever they feel like sending comes whenever they feel like sending it, via whatever route they feel like sending it, wherever they feel like making it stop. Is there even any kind of written procedure for what should be done when there is a delay? I find no consistency in what happens. A train is 30+ minutes late with several backed up behind it, and goes local; a train with no trains behind it that is 3-4 minutes late goes express.
If its been a 30 minute delay, then the first train SHOULD go local, even if it WAS an express. There hasn't been service in so long that there are going to be a lot of people waiting, and you're gonna need every train. Plus, its not like making that local train go exp is gonna get it back on time, whereas if a train is 3-4 mins late, then it actually can catch up.
Yah dont happen to think that correlation of V to (Victory)
of all things has annnnything to do with the C/R getting a personal
rise outta whuts' going on.... youknow.... far ovah dere!
Real annmouncement like Ronald Reagans 'Five Minutes.' Cut my teeth on mechanical 60 baud Teletype......300 baud ASCII was 'out of this world' and we're on 56,000 baud dial-ups. Do the math. CI Peter
Mark
They freed the man, it happened on a Blue Line train at 7:44
The Metro Center Station is open and they're single-tracking trains through the station.
Mark
These are unfortunately referred to as "Space Cases". More commonly, the person is wedged between the train and the platform. Unfortunately, the compression of the body between the two is significantly more damaging than seems to be apparent by the victim's ability to converse while waiting to be extricated. Sadly, when the person is freed, they frequently die. Largely, it depends on the part of the body trapped. These incidents are not too common but surely not a rarity. There was a space case recently at 33rd St. The person was caught by his legs between the train and the plat.
Probably need some IVs going before you try to release the victim.
Elias
It used to be that trauma victims were given a salt solution IV wide open (two IV lines) - but we have come to the realization that this dilutes oxygen-carrying capacity too much. Now the IV's are given TKO (to keep the veins open) and the patient gets volume expanders like blood, or red cells or plasma.
I hope he makes it.
Nice. But out here we are talking 40 minutes to the hospital, and we gotta maintain that BP *somehow*. We have NS or LR, but we don't have that other stuff out in the field. You can call the Doctor or you can call the Pastor.
Elias
You do what you have to do, with whatever resources are available. If the patient is in shock and "third spacing" you keep the fluids coming, add pressor support, and hope you're not putting the patient into heart failure from the overload...
NY1 is supposed to be airing an interview with me tonight and thru the weekend about the demise of the token and my token tee shirts.
Also Transit Transit will air one in the beginning of May.
I'm also looking to find interviews where I was quoted in Newsday and
Daily News, all about to break within a few days. If you see anything, give me a shout,okay?
subway grrl
--Mark
Frank Hicks
Summer of 2000 he scanned & re-published his 1966 "The Road to the Transit Museum". You'll find a great amount of detail about the formation of it there.
Mr t__:^)
I don't recall being a detractor of these cars vis-a-vis older rolling stock. However, the published figures I've seen for 2002 show:
R-62: 159,425
R-62A: 157,490
R-142: 74,153
R-142A: 130,498
Are your figures substantially different, or do you have a different spin on the data?
Seriously, the R-142's appear to have had a lower MDBF than the R-33's they're replacing. In fact, they had a lower MDBF than all but the 10 R-26's. Even the R-44's did better.
Sadly, once facts are posted here, they tend to limit discussion rather than promote it. The numbers may or may not be correct. I'm more curious about whether the perceptions persist - much like they pesist regarding other TA car classes.
The poster did not say. The posting was made 9 April, and mentions a year and not a month. I presume they are a 12-month average for 2002, but this is merely conjecture.
The numbers may or may not be correct.
I have questioned the accuracy of some figures that you posted. You are certainly entitled to return the favor. :-)
I'm more curious about whether the perceptions persist - much like they pesist regarding other TA car classes.
Perceptions, and initial perceptions, are difficult to live down.
I've also found that perceptions are often backed up by quantitative data. In this instance, the posted data would indicate that the R142s are the worst performers in the fleet. Your perception is that it is equal to or better than other models. It is certainly difficult to expand a discussion on this topic with two such dissimilar statements. :-)
The numbers purport to be the MDBF for 2002 for different car types. They were posted on the usenet nyc.transit.
R-26 (10 cars): 0
R-28 (6 cars): 0
R-29 (2 cars): 0
R-32 (594 cars): 88,889
R-33 (278 cars): 62,506
R-36 (250 cars): 69,096
R-38 (196 cars): 186,214
R-40 (391 cars): 165,360
R-42 (391 cars): 83,696
R-44 (272 cars): 68,838
R-46 (752 cars): 111,465
R-62 (320 cars); 206,519
R-62A (824 cars): 163,606
R-68 (425 cars): 147,903
R-68A (200 cars): 227,597
R-142 (730 cars): 161,441
R-142A (520 cars): 265,280
R-143 (168 cars): 89,464 (first time MDBF was reported for this car class)
David
These monthly figures are substantially different from the one's I'd seen posted in the nyc.transit usenet.
That source has subsequently indicated that his numbers came from 2003 MTA Board Agenda (page 9).
Is this a question of looking at monthly vs. yearly averages?
Probably. MDBF on the new cars seems to be trending upward, something that a single annual figure for last year (for each car class) would not capture.
David
One should do some regression analysis on the data before making such a bold statement. :-)
David
I've said that I doubted the value of the TA's MDBF definition and its application to prove or disprove the performance of one car model vs. another. I have not doubted the value of reliability/availability statistics.
Also, I have suggested that regression analysis should be used for trend analysis. There is nothing inconsistent about insisting that mathematical rigor be applied to using statistics, no matter how flawed that metric might be. :-)
I seem to recall that you suggested that individual monthly figures are not as important as a yearly average because of the high variability from month to month. The figures you cite do indeed show great variability from those for January that were presented by David. They also show great variability from the 12 month average presented to the MTA board.
Is that regressive enough?
There is a common mathematical technique to determine whether a random variable is increasing or decreasing with time. It's called regression analysis. I prefer to use it. It requires the previous measure as well as the current measure. The average value requires the same measures. Do you have any problem with mathematical rigor?
Yes, I did say that in general, the 12 month moving MDBF is more significant and a more reliable indicator than the monthly MDBF statistic. The problem is that because of their 'youth', the R-142 and R-142A do not yet have 12 months of reliable data because the car is evolving through modification and 'tweeking'. Some of the 12 month mdbf data for those cars reflects some of the infant failures of the fleet.
Finally, we are all aware of yor extreme discomfort with the MDBF statistic. Yes it is imperfect as is GNP or the Dow Jones Index. However, the MDBF, because it measures the performance of NYCTs 13 maintenance shop's individual fleets by the same criteria, it gives an indication of relative performance that most NYCT & MTA managers are comfortable with. However, if you wish, feel free to add the Bauman variables to your own personal calculations. If you wish you can divide by 2, 4 or 5 depending if we're dealing with a married pair, a 4-car lonk or a 5-car link. You can use a 50' car as your base and multiply the MDBF by 1.2 for a 60' car and by 1.5 for a 75' car.
When we find a defect affecting passenger and/or system safety with the R142s, our supervisors write up a work order for Bombardier to fix it (unless it's something I can whip up a fix for and get that trainset back into RTO.) Time and revenue lost don't come up in MBDF.
Now IF you worked for Bombardier contract in London and trainset was out of revenue service, your salary may be docked EVEN if lack of parts prevented operation or brought back trainset in TT. TA loses money everytime a trainset is held over for 'lack of parts.' I'm beginning to get the feeling that Bombardier is holding out...waiting for warranties to expire to sell parts. If TA analysed losses atrributed to trainset defects, boy would they have a case!!! CI Peter
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I, too (altho much passively and privately) still stick to my gospel.
I first met an R143 car last week fresh from the factory and
I'd much rather ride THAT than an armadillo.. small differences
make big contrasts..
Dave really got on my nerves last night !
but we still cool ???????
and whats your new email Adress !
cause my reply to your last letter bounsed back !
All up in the family, bubba.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Changing over one's e-mail address could be a very harrowing experience :)
Seriously, glad you're on the mend.
--Mark
Don't be put off by these nitwits.
Best Wishes for a speedy recovery.
Larry, RedbirdR33
There also seem to be a lot of posts where they say I agree with this or that, what do you agree with? Formulate an opinion and contribute something worthwhile (in general terms, not directed at anyone)!
-Stef
Okay. CC LOCAL, everything is coming along well? Feeling chipper and ready to get back to the board? Cool. Now....
ENOUGH ALREADY WITH "AS THE WORLD TURNS"!!!!
Trains! Trains! Trains! Get it? Please, man. Don't add to the click count for nothing. Thank you.
Already, 40th st/Broadway BMT stairs are closed and the ORIGINAL 1904 Times Square P/T entrance (by Track 4 of the Shuttle) will close for 9 months for renovation work, starting Monday 4/14.
But Phase II only covers the BMT Broadway and IRT Flushing lines, with a new link to the two. Why are they working on the Shuttle entrance, when it is in Phase III (for the Shuttle rehabilitation) as in the words from the MTA web site "...to be addressed seperately."?
Does that mean it will close for good tonight? I don't think it's open on weekends.
When did the 40th Street BMT mezzanine close?
Phase I: IRT 7th Ave side and installation of some elevators. (completed)
Phase II: IRT Flushing line, associated ramps and escalators, more elevators, the BMT Broadway gets a redone also. Plus the best part; a new set of staircases and passageway on the BMT platforms leading directly to the IRT Flushing line platform. No more navigating through the "maze".
Phase III: Shuttle platforms.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Which will also make for a much simpler transfer between BMT and (mainline) IRT.
Would be nice if you're right. But looking at the MTA Capital Plan info, I see (a) no details of what is to be done and (b) no money allocated to Times Square in 2003 or 2004.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
My personal choice would be October 27, 1904. I really would have liked to have seen firsthand what the original line was like to ride and see the stations as they were when they were all new.
11/25/67 through 11/28/67
a weekend in the city, experiencing the old Manny-B routes (including the Nassau Loop) and the mayhem and confusion of the new 6th Ave/IND routings after the route changes. Plus an extra day on Monday for the first ride on the NX from Brighton Beach.
#3 West End Jeff
There are conflicting dates as to when the Sea Beach line actually ran to Coney Island, but it was NOT the first line to Coney Island, nor on 6/22/1915, the full Sea Beach line opened either.
On 6/22/1915, you would've witnessed the opening of the 4th Ave line as far south at 59th st, that's it. The Sea Beach Line from 59th st to 86th st opened on 1/15/1916. The extension to Coney Island was later than that.
I have the following from primary sources:
"June 22, 1915 - 4th Ave. - Sea Beach subway service started at 12 noon CI to Chambers 10 am to KY and 10 am to CI.
"Sea Beach-65th Street service (trolley service) discontinued after 1157 am from CI and 1218 pm from 65th Street."
I believe the 1916 date you cite for 86th Street may have been the opening of the express tracks on the Sea Beach Line to that point.
Some of these dates appear based on published dates in ERA NY Division Bulletins which contained quite a few "best guesses."
I will stand on the 5/22/15 on the Sea Beach subway service to Coney Island. There are a few caveats which may explain some of the confusion. I don't readily have the date that Sea Beach trains began using "New West End Terminal" (Stillwell) but it was surely no later than October 18, 1920, since I have a firm reference on that.
It's difficult to put a hard date on station or line openings where the line is pre-existing because "opening" is a matter of interpretation. Any kind of service? The current structure? A particular kind of equipment? A particular routing?
As I said in an earlier post, I believe your January 1916 date to 86th Street refers to completion of the express track or tracks to that point. For some reason the BRT considering this a big deal in its own right.
Another date I can hand you is September 25, 1919 (one day off your 9/26/1919) for Prospect Park to Church Avenue, but that date simply refers to the inauguration of the permanent local tracks between those two points.
Also one day off is the entry of Brighton into Stillwell, 5/30/1919 not 5/29. May 30 is significant in that it was Decoration Day (Memorial Day) that year.
Sorry to seem so nitpicking. It may seem complicated and in fact, it is. This is why I usually just give a year or a month and year in postings since specific dates require explanation.
"I will stand on the 5/22/15 on the Sea Beach subway service to Coney Island."
should be 6/22/15. See how errors in history get started?
-Dave
Express track ride right out and over the Brooklyn Bridge and to Park Row. That would be one of many.
Second choice...first time use of BMT Standard. To ride in a brand new BRT standard with the new car smell. I remember the smell of the R32 when they were new. With those wicker seats, the standard must have smelled great.
Rule is: you can't change a thing.
People are always fascinated with disaster. How many movies and books have there been about the human tragedy of the Titanic? Look at Civil War re-enacters.
When one thinks about "witnessing" the Malbone wreck, I think it's fair to assume that we could look at it like Scrooge being guided by the ghosts, merely observers who could observe, but not act.
Still, if it were real, even observing as a "spirit," I'm not sure I could stand to be dispassionate about the human suffering.
WHo said I want to see people die?
He didn't say he was going to glorify the disaster, laugh at the people who were killed, look in pleasant awe at what happened. He just wanted to witness 2 events that would change the course that the subway took. Both had implications on how the subway would be operated in the future, the way we see it now. Nothing wrong with that.
Actually, the wreck that seems to have had the most significant consequences with respect to subway operations is the Williamsburg Bridge crash of 1995.
But if we could do the "take my digital camera to a point in time" I would trade the early IND for perhaps early 1924 when the elevated was at about its greatest extent and I could capture such rarities as the Grand Central spur in operation.
Before then I might leap all the way back to the transition time between steam and electric.
What happens when you run out of batteries? Or if you cover the wrong time and one of the Dead Rabbits comes over and asks to see "that little box yer holdin'?"
I would also love to check out those streets that for a time had both els and subways, and maybe even streetcars running. Like Fulton Street in Brooklyn, or Sixth Avenue in Manhattan.
Great book. There's also a wonderful color video of the 3rd Avenue El titled, "3rd Avenue El"
I think I have that tape. I have never seen it, because I don't have a VCR anymore, only two DVD players. I would have to go to my grandmother's house just to watch it. Dumbest thing I have ever done, buying a tape without a VCR. I would like to go back in time to warn myself not to waste 22 (regardless, still my lucky number) dollars, and save it for the delicious sandwiches that I later couldn't afford at the deli across the street from Stillwell.
That's OK, I don't have a DVD player, only two VCRs :-) Go to Grandma's and watch the tape... it's a good one (I've got a copy myself).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
* IND service into and out of the '39 Worlds Fair
* Putnam Division final day of service in 1958
* Last day of Myrtle service to Bridge/Jay
* Last LIRR service into Rockaway Park
* Final departure of Chicago bound Erie/Lackawanna service
* First day of service for R32s
* First day of service for New Haven FL9s
* Elevator service on Queensborough bridge to Roosevelt Island
I'd also take rides on opening dates and on other important dates: first train; first train from Flatubush terminal; first train from Fulton El; first train from Park Row; and the Malbone wreck train.
Both series of hearings went on for hours, with language much stronger than what you'd hear today at an MTA hearing (to read the newspaper articles). In addition, John Delaney, the B of T chair, going by his public comments, appeared to be someone who did not take criticism very well.
I mean, imagine being part of those meetings that discussed plans for the IND Second System and (gulp) 76th Street!
--mark
Here's another thing I would have loved to have been at: the meeting of the McAvoy Commission on transit issues held on December 24, 1924 (a virtually all-day meeting on Christmas Eve?), at which John Hylan had the opportunity to speak out against all of his transit enemies.
1st and 4most.
If medical science extends the average human lifespan to 175 or so, you might have a chance.
There is no excuse for the upper section of the line, the part north of 63rd Street, not to open in 2010. I'm not saying it will happen. I'm saying there is no excuse for it not to. If it doesn't, we'll have been robbed.
It's probably possible to extend the human life span to 175 centuries, but not before all of us die.
wayne
I would have loved to go back to September 9, 1964 (my first day of school in second grade, incidentally) to witness the inaugural R-32 run from Mott Haven Yard to Grand Central Terminal.
Not to mention experiencing a revenue trip on the Triplexes.
--Z--
Peace,
ANDEE
The opening of the A train extension over former AirTrain trackage to the JFK terminals.
You obviously plan to live to be VERY, VERY old don't you?
(even to witness the SAStubway at a minimum)!
Mark
If so I would pick either
1)sometime in the late 40's/early 50's because I think (I'm not sure) most of the lines were around back then, right after Flushing opened, before 2 Av El and Myrtle/Flatbush was closed, and Chrystie St hadn't happened yet. The old Jamaica El was still around, too. Then I could ride every line.
2)The last day of the 3rd Avenue El.
(1) Last day of service on the Myrtle Ave. El (would like to have ridden last Gate Car run with Ed Davis, Sr. as Motorman).
(2) The ERA-sponsored fantrip of D-Types along SBK trackage that took place in Sept. 1975.
I miss not being in the states for the three years after Chrystie Street. Although I rode the first train through the line I was overseas for most of 1970-1972 so I missed the openning of 57 St-6 Av and a lot of the post-Chrystie Street pandemonium that ensued. It was a mixed blessing though. I did get to ride the London and Madrid subways and the last days of the Madrid streetcars.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Also the 1834 opening of London & Greenwich Railway (London's first suburban railway).
The construction of the current (7) IRT Fluhing line. It being my favorite line and all, aside from the annoying interlocking construction, I'd like to see pics of how the land was when it was being built? No one has pictures, I imagine...
The opening of the Beach Pnuematic Subway
The opening of Penn Station, New York
The first through car on the Poughkeepsie and Wappingers Falls Street Railway
The first train across the Poughkeepsie bridge
The last streetcar run in Raleigh, North Carolina (I have the fare register that supposedly came from that car... don't know the number of the car though)
The opening of the original Chicago 'L'
The first run of TARS 629
The first run of BQT 1001
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
- Opening Day of the original IRT in 1904
- Any typical summer day in the 30's or 40's at Coney Island
- Riding the 1939 IND World's Fair line
- Opening Day of the original IRT in 1904
- Any typical summer day in the 30's or 40's at Coney Island
- Riding the 1939 IND World's Fair line
1. Opening day in the IRT Subway, of course.
2. A ride out of Park Row over the Brooklyn Bridge and over the BMT Els just before abandonment.
3. A trip on the Second Avenue El, so that in case the time machine couldn't go forward in time (how much forward is an open question, although I hope sooner then later) I could say that I had rode a train on the Second Avenue line. This one just prior to abandonment.
4. A ride across the magnificent curve over 110th Street on the 9th Avenue El just prior to abandonment.
5. The first train out of Queensboro Plaza through the 60th Street Tunnel, if only to have claimed to have rode on the fastest train in revenue service.
6. Down CPW express on the last R-10 trainset through there. And the first. Then compare noises and speeds.
7. To ride the BMT standards on their first day of service. Then on their last run too.
8. Board the last train ever to operate out of 42/8 Lower Level.
9. Ride the pre-IND Culver route. Then fast forward to the last run on the shuttle.
10. Rides around on the routes just after their alteration by the Chrystie Street Connections. Take joy in telling people that they'd get used to it, eventually. Let them know to enjoy the KK train while they could.
But my true wish is to be age 18 in the year 1969, and start off as a young motorman on the A division driving the whole series of subway cars from the R12 to the present R142A. I would love a long stretch like that as a motorman. Maybe they would have used me as the motorman in the "Pelham 123" flick, but that's kind of asking a wee bit too much. The name "Denny Doyle" doesn't really go with me.
Jimmy
Opening Day of the 63rd St Tunnel & Archer Ave
"NX" service in 1967
Last days of 3rd Ave El, Myrtle El, and Jamaica El past 121st St
First run of the "Train to the Plane" in 1978.
plus many others.....
2. The last passenger train on the Bay Ridge LIRR;
3. The last Fulton/Franklin/Brighton line ride;
4. The last LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch line all the way to the Rockaways from Penn Station.
A belated apology to you about my mixup regarding your nephew. I erred in saying that David was your son instead of your nephew. Whatever the case may be, he did a great job of holding the fort down and letting us know about your progress while you were in the hospital.
Example...I am waiting at Jay Street to go to Broadway Junction when in comes a C train...do Itake the C train or is the A train right behind. Now during te rush hours perhaps it doesn't matter but at 10 PM at niht, the next A train might be just behind or 10 minutes behind. Now there are annoucements made at Jay St. all the time, "there is a Queens bound train at High St., one station away." so the train dispatcher there has a board showing something. If there is no trainshowing on the board would it be so much to announce, passengers are advised to take the C train in the station as the next A train is at least 7 or 8 minutes away or passengers for express stops please note there is an express train at High St..passengers are owed that and it is something that can be done today don't you think.
It is being done. It will take 15 to 20 years to do the whole system, in additon to the seven or so years it has been so far. The A division and the Canarsie Line are going first, then the BMT, and finally the IND.
PS CC check your Email !
Peace,
ANDEE
Really if someone can't afford up to 10 extra minutes, then its not the system, its the passenger. 10 minutes is really no a lot of time under normal conditions.
Here's another example of what I'm talking about.Today I wanted to take the 1 train from 157-207Sts and I had just missed a train.Then 4,yes 4 straight train's going to SF show up and none come up.So basically that told me that something major must've happened downtown.
First train arrives and I let it go cause it was too crowded and get on the train that's right behind it.At 168St a young woman and an elderly woman,both know each other,most likly family related, got on the train and they were pissed off and I mean really pissed off.They obviously went through the same thing I did.But I wasn't mad cause I knew something went wrong with the 1 so there was no need for me to get PO'ed but them....man o man.They had no reason to be pissed off at all about what happened.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you see 4 trains go by in the opposite direction and none come in the direction your going then something's wrong.So if there's a reason to get PO'ed in that type of situation,be my guest and let me hear the reason cause it's truly ridiculous.It really is.
Working QP passenger control, people would come down the stairs from the street and if there was no train waiting for them "I'm going to be late for work, where is this train?" I mean really if you have things planned that tightly where you're late if the train ain't already there you deserve to be late. 2-3 minutes is not a good margin of error when you're trying to get to work. And crowding? You know its the same way every day. Why bother bitching about it?
About that I think we could eliminate that problem by getting employers to stagger work hours a little. Say between 14-23 Sts 9-5, 23-34 9:30-5:30, etc. Doing PC I realized how much a half hour makes a difference. At 8:30am Roosevelt Ave would be packed but by 9 or 9:15 there is a remarkable difference (at least last time I was there).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Thank You to All who love transit---It has truly opened my eyes and added to my subway curiosity in ways that could never have happened before subtalk, or for that matter, before the internet.
Mark
All the way from Fulton to Marcy, on a Queens-bound M train, I didn't see any trains pass in the reverse direction. Then at Marcy I saw an M, followed by another M at Lorimer, which despite the fact that it had people on board, it did not stop, and did not even slow down. Then after we got to Myrtle, seven trains passed in seven minutes. J after J after J after J after J after J, then a Z at Chauncey. Not to mention both our Queens-bound M and the Queens-bound J we got on were both late.
I'm not even gonna go into the fiasco of the (2)s that were late at Flatbush...just that somebody literally got kicked off the train because it was so crowded. The reverse train we saw had gone express, followed by a local, and then a <5> at only about 3:20. I thought <5> service didn't start until four or five o'clock? And since when do (5)s actually go to Utica?
There are a comple of putins before the rush hour that actually start at New Lots. After the rush hour a few 5 trains terminate at Utica. I don't remember the exact times, sorry.
There's been a midday GO for the past few weeks: no J service south of Myrtle, and the M runs on 24-minute headways and single-tracks over the Williamsburg Bridge.
What really fries me is that of all the trains that I saw, none were empty. All were pretty healthily full considering reverse-peak direction at 4PM with last train left a minute ago.
But lets all try to behave a little better lest you log in on Monday morning and find your posting quota smaller than you might prefer.
...Where's tha line to help kick the bag to the curb??
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Others aren't mature enough.
wayne
Have appetite, will token!!
I'll take a Dunkin Donut anytime.
Another one in Harlem, 125th st/Fredrick Douglass. 1 block east of 125th st/St. Nick IND station.
For a real donut, try Dunkin Donuts.
That's right, they're DOUGHNUTS.
And remember the stereotype...
Cops are the best judges of doughnuts!!
And also remember, no matter what Duncan calls 'em:
It's Doughnut, NOT Donut!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
The main document is a 26-page "Draft Scoping Document" (PDF download). The preliminary concept is also illustrated on the linked web pages. A public scoping meeting has been scheduled for April 29th.
The main features of the program are:
1) A new street-level transit center on Broadway between Fulton and John Sts.
2) Rehab of the 2/3 and 4/5 stations
3) A new mezzanine for the A/C lines, improving access and transfers
4) A new underground concourse under Dey St, connecting the 4/5 line to the N/R (soon to be W/R) station
5) A new free transfer between the Cortlandt St N/R and WTC E stations
6) Improved street-level access to all lines
Also mentioned are future transfers to PATH, Hudson River ferries, and the 1/9 Cortlandt St station. The document provides some interesting history of the current station and the sequence in which its current elements were built.
Construction would begin sometime near the end of 2004, with project completion at the end of 2007.
Speaking of which, does anyone know if the passage under Dey St that connected the IRT with Hudson Terminal still exists?
But, as this is one of those projects that is 9-11/FEMA related, I never kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Arti
If 150 percent of the money hasn't yet been used, however, it may want to consider my J/Z at Atlantic Terminal suggestion.
That is, built a branch off the Montigue tunnel tracks south of DeKalb, connecting to a terminal in the LIRR concourse. The J/Z would run not to Broad but to Atlantic Terminal, with extra trains running between Atlantic Terminal and Chambers Street when necessary to maintain frequent service and make connections. LIRR riders bound for Downtown could transfer to empty, frequent subways to Atlantic Terminal rather than packing on the IRT. And DeKalb Avenue would feature transfers to the Nassau Loop throughout the day.
Here is what I sent to the LMDC"
The threat of disaster for Brooklyn (ie. the Brookfield Plan) is enough to concentrate the mind. Therefore, I submit this alternative.
Branch off from the unused B1 and B2 tracks south of DeKalb, the ones
that now connect the Brighton Line to the Montigue Tunnel. Connect
them instead to a new terminal station directly under the LIRR's
Atlantic Terminal.
With the Manhatan Bridge fully open beginning in 2004, instead of running the Sea Beach (N) through the tunnel at rush hour, run the J/Z, terminating it at Atlantic Terminal. The new station would NOT be a free transfer from the subway, but would qualify for a discounted transfer from the LIRR. Subway passengers could transfer to the J/Z at DeKalb, Lawrence, and Court.
Here are the reasons.
I've come to believe that a one-seat ride is not important, since you
can only have it from one origin to one destination at one travel time. You end up losing more time adjusting your travel time to take the one-seat train than you would have lost connecting.
Still, the subway transfers at Grand Central and Atlantic are a bad ride for those from the suburbs, because by the time the suburbanites get on the train they are already jammed with city residents. On the other hand, the NJT transfers to the PATH at Newark and Hoboken are better. You transfer to a waiting, empty train.
The Nassau line is, and the Montigue Tunnel will be, underutilized
assets. The proposed station at Atlantic Terminal would allow this
capacity to be used by those transferring from the LIRR and other subway lines without running empty trains all the way down to Brigthon Beach or 9th Avenue. NYC Transit woudl only need three or four more trains to extend the J/Z the additional four stops from Broad Street to this station.
In the AM, the J/Z could time it's departure from Atlantic Terminal to
match the LIRR -- it would have the same frequency, and could even wait a minute or two if need be to allow the transfer. LIRR
riders would be getting into an empty train, and many folks would get seats. Subway riders could get on afterward at DeKalb, Lawrence (after the Jay-Lawrence connection is built), and Court. With a
subway designed to serve them primarily, many LIRR riders would stop
using the IRT -- a good thing for Brooklyn residents.
In Manhattan, the J/Z stops at the large, well located, and underused Broad Street station, the proposed Downtown Grand Central, and the potentially grand Chambers Street Station.
In the PM, subway and LIRR riders would board at the same time, so LIRR riders wouldn't get all the seats. The PM rush hour is more spread out and less crowded, however. Put-in trains could
be stored in the former H track connection to the Manhanttan Bridge north of Chambers Street. This would ensure a reliable connection to the LIRR in case a disruption on the inbound J/Z leads to delays. So LIRR riders would be reasonably sure of making their train.
The alignment could be designed so that it could be connected to the
LIRR tracks someday, if there is a desire to move the transfer point from Brooklyn back to Jamaica. That would allow those on LIRR trains not bound for Brooklyn, and those on the Airtrain, to transfer once rather than twice. And the city-MTA agreement could stipulate that if half of the Manny B is out, the train to Atlantic Terminal, not some other train, would sacrificed. This would give Long Island an incentive to make sure the bridge is maintained or replaced.
It may well be that there are already nearly empty trains available to take LIRR passengers to Chambers St without need for building an expesive terminal.
With the N going through the tunnel and the number of trains going over the bridge constrained, the tunnel trains are 1/2 empty right now leaving Pacific and DeKalb. The suburbanites do not consider changing to these trains a feature of an acceptable commute, because they are not consistent or enough (relative to the leaving time of LIRR trains) and the change is difficult. They jam on the IRT, go to Penn, or try to avoid working in Lower Manhattan instead.
The new passageway will help somewhat.
With the Manny B fully open, the number of trains going through the tunnel will be reduced from 22 to perhaps 16, perhaps 14, at rush hour -- and from 18 to just 6 during mid-days. That may be enough to prevent trains going to Lower Manhattan from being crowded, but it also will mean long waits -- bad service, low quality of life -- and no access to the Nassau Loop most of the day/week.
In my proposed Manny B service plan, I suggested running the Z down the Brighton at rush hour, and keeping the M middays. But it seems not to be worth it to the MTA to run semi-empty trains long distances in order to have transfers available closer in. There is nowhere to turn the trains closer in (seems to ge a generic issue).
Therefore, I propose a separate terminal for trains just for those transferring. If the platform was steps away from the LIRR, and the trains were managed to match the arrival and departure of the LIRR trains, this would be a faster and more comfortable option than the IRT. City residents would benefit from the transfer at DeKalb and (ie the Jay-Lawrence transfer is built) Jay Street.
I believe you suggest connecting from the new LIRR terminal platform to the 4th Ave local tracks south/east of Dekalb. Take a look at the Brooklyn Heights track map on this site.
It shows 8 (yes, 8) BMT (Brighton and 4th Ave) tracks underneath Fulton St., to a large degree on 1 level. And the 4th Ave tracks are below the Brighton tracks where they cross over in the merge. Even if one agrees to obliterate the connection between the Brighton tracks and the Montague Tunnel (which would be a major loss of flexibility, even if it's not usually used now), I don't know that it's possible to thread in another set of tracks originating at the LIRR terminal.
An alternative might be to bypass Dekalb and merge with the Montague tracks underneath Willoughby St between Dekalb and Lawrence. But that would be a lot of new and very expensive tunneling, probably including tunneling underneath the foundations of existing buildings.
If service on the M were increased to 10 tph by adding 4 short runs between Essex St and 9th Ave, then the average leave load levels would be in the 30% range. This is fairly close to guaranteeing a seat during rush hour.
Balancing local service levels to 10 each for the M and R would also improve schedule reliability, so it would be a benefit for Brooklyn passengers who do not use Nassau St service.
Another alternative would be to extend the W from its projected Whitehall St terminal to 9th Ave. This would have the same effect of providing a nearly empty trains at Pacific St and balancing running headways. It would have the added benefit of depositing the passengers a couple of blocks closer to Brookfield's properties.
That probably makes more sense - lower cost. But can the allegedly persnickity LIRR riders be persuaded to walk to the Pacific St station? I know I probably would stick with a crowded 4/5 train rather than walk a crowded passageway.
True, and there is the possiblity of service disruptions on the way home, causing one to miss one's LIRR train.
The advantages of the separate terminals are:
1) The empty trains don't have to go all the way to 9th Avenue, so you need fewer trains, operators, maintaners, etc.
2) The trains at the terminal could wait until everyone has walked from an arriving LIRR train and then depart.
3) Trains parked on the H tracks north of Chambers could fill in in the event of service disruptions or gaps in the PM, to ensure connections could be made to the departing LIRR trains.
4) Eventually, the J/Z could be extended right to the Jamaica station platforms via the recapture of that line. That would allow those on every LIRR train, now destined for GCT, Penn or LIC, to have a cross-platform transfer to a quick ride to/from lower Manhattan.
With a third track added on Jamaica Avenue, city residents could gain a similar fast ride to Lower Manhattan via the lower level. Extended to new tail tracks (with perhaps new yard space) east of the station, the J/Z could thus run as a loop.
The connecting trains, whether using their own terminal or not, must operate on a predetermined time schedule. Waiting to fill up is just not an operational practicality. The connecting train must interact with other trains whose tracks they share.
1) The empty trains don't have to go all the way to 9th Avenue, so you need fewer trains, operators, maintaners, etc.
Are you arguing cost-effectiveness? The running time between Pacific and 9th Ave is 12 minuetes. Roundtrip running time is 24 minutes plus 6 minutes turnaround at 9th Ave. That comes to 30 minutes, which at 6 tph comes to an additional 3 trainsets and crews. Compare that to the annularized cost of constructing the new terminal and tracks plus the recurring cost of maintaining them. Which option meets the beancounter test? :-)
3) Trains parked on the H tracks north of Chambers could fill in in the event of service disruptions or gaps in the PM, to ensure connections could be made to the departing LIRR trains.
Those parked trains will not help, if there is any problem in the Montague St tunnel or in the tracks leading through DeKalb. The old northbound connection to the Manhattan Bridge might have helped but it was removed a quarter century ago.
The reason I suggested using Essex St as the northbound terminal instead of Chambers St was to avoid the TA's self inflicted foot wound of mismanaging relay terminals. Using Chambers as the terminal will simply backup through trains bound for the Broadway El. Of course you are welcome to remodel Chambers St as well and add another 100 million to the project's cost.
BTW, there is nothing to prevent the non-rush hour storage of the trains just north of Chambers St. It's just that using Chambers St as a northbound terminal is not practical with current TA operating procedures.
N.B. nobody has given any estimate of how many people might use this service. It's not going to be that many because there are not that many trains terminating at Flatbush (less than 10/hour). Nobody has done a study to figure out how many of the people taking those trains are trying to get to downtown Manhattan. Some people do actually work in downtown Brooklyn. However, 10-12 tph service on the subway would appear to be quite generous.
The idea twofold. First, it is to divert not only those passengers now going through Flatbush to Lower Manhattan, but also those going through Penn and those who might go through Grand Central. To attract people away from the jammed IRT, in other words.
Second, it is to make Lower Manhattan more attractive as a destination, thereby increasing demand. Remember all those subways through farmland. One can run the cause and effect the other way.
(That comes to 30 minutes, which at 6 tph comes to an additional 3 trainsets and crews. Compare that to the annularized cost of constructing the new terminal and tracks plus the recurring cost of maintaining them. Which option meets the beancounter test?)
I was hoping for more TPH than that at peak hour. One can argue that no transportation improvements are worth it, and to be fair you do. But I think you do not count quality of life and time savings as benefits, whereas the FTA does, at least for the moment. And something tells me your discount rate is quite high. Mine is not.
I was using the 6 tph for the additional service which would terminate at 9th Ave. There is also an existing 6 tph for the M that terminates at Bay Pkwy. That brings total service from Pacific to downtown to 10-12 tph.
OTOH, if you have only a new costly terminal for the connecting train, then you will be limited to 6 tph because both R and M service must be maintained. So, using the existing Pacific Station for the transfer means an average waiting time of 2 1/2 to 3 minutes, whereas using a separte terminal means an average wait of 5 to 6 minutes before departure.
The idea twofold. First, it is to divert not only those passengers now going through Flatbush to Lower Manhattan, but also those going through Penn and those who might go through Grand Central. To attract people away from the jammed IRT
Neither the Lex, 7th Ave nor 8th Ave is operating at anything near capacity. The jams are caused by operating too few trains.
Second, it is to make Lower Manhattan more attractive as a destination, thereby increasing demand. Remember all those subways through farmland. One can run the cause and effect the other way.
One way to make an area attractive is to have affordable rents. Permitting Brookfield and other landlords to keep rents high is counterproductive.
There will only be 16 tph going through the Montigue Tunnel. That leaves room for 12 more.
You know, I wonder why you never started a thread that said the entire subway system should never have been built. Given that the IRT and BMT were broke a short time after the dual contracts were signed, and the system went to operating deficits soon after public ownership, you could say you were right. Just discount future benefits at some reasonable percent and all the value of any benefits post 1970 are probably something close to zero.
"Just discount future benefits at some reasonable percent and all the value of any benefits post 1970 are probably something close to zero."
Stephen believes the correct year of reference is 1957, not 1970.
You raised the question of additional operating cost of a dedicated terminal and service vis-a-vis additional service levels between Pacific St and downtown. We're agreed that LIRR passengers will get a rush hour seat regardless of either alternative. So, the question is which is more costly: a dedicated service between Chambers or Essex St) and a new terminal at 12 tph or the existing 6 tph on the M to Bay Parkway plus an additiona 6 tph between Essex St and 9th Ave.
Which alternative do you think is less costly to implement? Which alternative do you think can be implemented more quickly? Which alternative(s) require an EIS? If the underlying assumption (LIRR riders would take a quicker route via Flatbush in preference to Penn Sta) is wrong, then which alternative do you think places the least amount of money at risk?
I wonder why you never started a thread that said the entire subway system should never have been built.
One item remarkably absent from an EIS is how the project in question can be paid for. May I suggest one method that was used by Robert Moses. The bonds necessary for financing projects should be paid for by the increase in property taxes resulting from the increase in property values due to the project. The biggest percentage increase results from the conversion of vacant or nearly vacant land to income producing property. There is a scarcity of such land available today; there wasn't in 1910 or even in the early 1920's, when the Dual Contracts and IND lines were planned.
One can still apply the same principle but with less dramatic results. Should lines be built with the object of increasing property values of already expensive land or increasing the property values of less expensive land? Is Brookfield willing to entertain a 50% increase in real estate value on their downtown properties as a result of the new transit lines they are proposing?
I have proposed extending existing lines to areas of the city that have no train service at present. This has two purposes. It will increase property values and property tax receipts. Where appropriate, it will also decrease operating expenses because more expensive bus operations can be terminated. It will also provide quicker service.
Now, are service improvements possible in areas that already have train service? Absolutely, I have presented a proposal that will provide equivalent service with no construction cost for the downtown area.
Very true and well said.
"I have proposed extending existing lines to areas of the city that have no train service at present. This has two purposes. It will increase property values and property tax receipts. Where appropriate, it will also decrease operating expenses because more expensive bus operations can be terminated. It will also provide quicker service. "
I agree with you 100%. I hope you have not confined this advocacy to Subtalk.
Recall, however, that even on developed land you can reap many advantages. For example, look at Bethesda's development above Metrorail, and MARTA's strategy for utilizing air rights and encouraging development on top of rail stations.
Even without using Stephen Bauman's theories on reducing train congestion, there is capacity remaining on the IRT in Brooklyn. They would just have to get rid of the 5 to Flatbush, forcing people to make cross-platform transfers at Franklin, just like they do at W 96th and E 125th.
My letter will say that additional alternatives should be considered. I'll put in the idea you advanced; I will also be "floating the trial balloon," so to speak, of connecting the E train to the BMT Broadway line via 400 feet of additional track under Church Street. I fully expect that to be shot down, but it's worth a try, and it doesn't cost me anything.
If you ask me, that's the perfect place to build a new tower (if one is going to be built at all). Right on top of the bustling complex.
Ideally, MTA should put the whole design into a computer, and let building architects and engineers log on, so conflicts can be spotted and resolved quickly.
How about two towers, stations for several transit lines, an underground shopping mall, and observation deck, and a hotel.
Oh well.
I hope they GO FOR IT (at least the 1050' tower, anyway).
Asian countries build tall buildings to show that there city is big time. They want to show that they are a global player. New York is does not construct a large impractical building to prove anything.
smaller more Architecturally significant building is a better fit for NYC
While i dont agree with you for the most part on this post, i do agree with this. Building sway is really bad in tall buildings, but it's something that CAN be countered. The Empire State building is so strong that sway is not really an issue, unless it's gale force winds. The Citicorp Center, and Chicago's John Hancock Center use Tuned Mass dampers to reduce sway by 50% (and on Citicorp, help prevent the building from suffering lateral failure in a catastrophic hurricane!)
Asian countries build tall buildings to show that there city is big time. They want to show that they are a global player. New York is does not construct a large impractical building to prove anything.
Generally true, but a super skyscraper is not always impractical. I think the reason NY doesn't develop super SkyScrapers anymore is because it has developed most of it's necessary office space, while these places still have enough demand at once to build buildings that are gigantic.
It's also interesting to note that Only 4 buildings have ever eclipsed the 100 floor mark, and one of them, the Empire State Building, only reached it's 102 floor height because of it's Mast; intended to be a docking point for Dirigibles. The Twin Towers were truly the 'worlds tallest' in terms of floors because they reached 110, and had habitable space up to 107 (the others being mechanical floors). The Sears tower ends at 104.
All these new buildings in Asia are able to reach new heights because of use of masts, which are considered part of their height. Taipei 101 reaches it's colossal height through use of a mast, though it also does eclipse 100 floors, barely. The New Plan for the World Trade Center also utilizes this, with the trademark building reaching 1776' (would be world record) through use of a mast and light uninhabited glass tower. Incidentally, the Planned Times building would also do this, using an extremely long mast to become taller than the Chrysler Building. Oddly enough, Antennae are not included.
NYC should build taller in the future. I have a feeling that when the Far west side develpos, new superskyscrapers will develop there.
In my younger days I would love for NYC to regain the crown of worlds tallest building. My opinion changes one summer in college when I was assigned a temp job high up in the north tower. Dampers can help to reduce sway, but some sway is needed for structural stability. The higher you go up, it is unavoidable
But from a practicality matter for developement, ultra tall buildings required addtional elavators that reduce usable floor space on lower floors. These smaller floor plates are not apropiate for many corporate tenanta. Any building over 50 stories is unpractical from an economic standpoint unless the upper floors could be leased out at significantly higher rents. Something that is highly unlikely in todays market. Throughout the life of the Twin towers much of the office space on the upper floors was virtually vacant.
I have been following the worlds tallest building race over in asia. These buildings are being put up for national pride. Much of these building upper floors in the current tallest buildings are virtually empty of office tenants.
I rather see smaller well designed buildings then a colosal ultra tall structure. Statements could be made with masts and spires. Human inhabitance on the tops of these building is impractical.
There are ways to overcome the elevator issue, as was demonstrated by the Twin Towers and the American International building (double decker elevators, which were abandoned but again picked up by the Citicorp building.) That's not the real issue at this point. It's what u mentioned: higher rents for higher floors. Used to be people loved those views. Now, people are afraid of being blown up in another [unlikely] attack. So the value has depreciated. Plus, once you get to 80 stories (according to a manager at Bovis construction), construction does reach high cost.
But something else that has allowed for the construction of tall buildings is mixed use. Putting residential apartments at the top of a building gives you a chance to make an high initial profit from those floors, and you dont have as great a need for elevators. Of course, you can't expect someone to live TOO high.
I agree that in this day and weak market, superskyscrapers are at least temporarily dead in NYC. But the value of these tall buildings will rise again, especially as world population grows. Plus, they make powerful statements as symbols, and they give cities a tourist identity. If NYC had not built so many 50-70 stoy buildings, then buildings of that height would be signature buildings. But manhattan is the IDEAL place for putting up a superskyscraper.
If the far west side develops, I fully expect to see another Superskyscraper in midtown.
Its all a scam. The government assumed responsibility for insurance payments for all future terrorist attacks so from an risk assessment point of view there is no change from before 9/11. All the insurance companies are trying to do is recoup their 9/11 losses and losseses from many other recent fiascos like asbestos and possibly tabbacco.
The government did not assume all responsibility. It will help with the cost of terrorist attacks under a formula (I can't remember the details). The insurance companies will still bear a significant cost of any attacks.
What round in their boxing match have they reached?
This was true or the first 10 years. Before the 2001 bombing the vacancy rate was 3% and the top floors were full of blue-chip clients.
"I have been following the worlds tallest building race over in asia. These buildings are being put up for national pride. Much of these building upper floors in the current tallest buildings are virtually empty of office tenants."
Yes, true - collosal national egos.
In NYC it wouldn't really matter. If Leader Bush can convince the redneck hick moron sheep of this nation to engage in a war with Iraq that makes absolutely no sound economic sence then he could convince they to work on tall buildings. All he needs to do is get on TV and say something spirational about how tall buildings defeat the goals of terrorism and sprad freedom, then have the congress pass a bill called something like the Tall Buildings Freedom Preservation Act that enacts tax breaks for tall buildings and prohibits critism of tall building building policy for the duration of the war on terror.
"But from a practicality matter for developement, ultra tall buildings required addtional elavators that reduce usable floor space on lower floors. These smaller floor plates are not apropiate for many corporate tenanta."
Trueabout structural aspects; the rest depends on the customer.
"Any building over 50 stories is unpractical from an economic standpoint unless the upper floors could be leased out at significantly higher rents."
That is a wild exaggeration not supported by data.
Official Height that should go down in Almanacs should be tallest structural element that supports (the weight equal to what is found in a standard office), and a space accessable by humans by fire code approved means and that is no smaller than some square feet (100?).
wayne
The drawing seems to imply that there is enough room above the upper level Nassau Line and under the street to run a concourse through to the 2/3, if I'm not mistaken.
(AND the #4/5 station doesn't need much in the way of rehab; I believe it already went through it once. The #2/3 station is another issue.)
The plan is only to rehab the 2/3, but additional entraces will be opened to the 4/5 from the trainsit center. I guess a lot of that wall, with its nice, intact mosaics, will have to be removed to get attitional transfer entrances from the A/C to the 4/5. Beware the art and history crazies.
I find that slightly hard to believe (not that the drawing implies it, but that there's room). Next time I'm down there, I'll see how deep the southbound Nassau St tracks are, but IIRC they are very shallow.
What I remember is the following:
1. If you enter at the eastmost Fulton St entrance, you go down a short flight of steps to the token booth. The 2/3 is another level directly below. If you go straight ahead, you go down a ramp, but then you go back up to get to the downtown J/M/Z.
2. If you get out the J/M/Z at the southmost exit, it's a standard flight of stairs or escalator up to the 1 Federal Plaza building.
Maybe they can raise street level of Fulton St and Nassau St by a few feet and provide room for a passageway that way. That would only be a tiny fraction of $750 million and would definitely help make the connections easier.
David
Your suggestion smacks of something done in the early 1970's. When Beame tried it, he encouraged the subway system to nearly fall off a cliff...
As Broadway line riders to Lower Manhattan have many other options unlike 8th Avenue ones, it looks to me (in light of this document) that it would make a lot of sense to connect 8th Av. local to Broadway line and terminate Broadway local at City Hall (as originally planned anyway.) Especially as bulk of the Broadway trains are destined to go over the bridge anyway after 2004.
Arti
PA has their fancy "Downtown Grand Central," MTA's gotta have their own "Downtown Grand Central" too. None of this adds capacity. They could accomplish 95% of their goals with 5% of the money. Got a problem with signage? No choice but to tear down a bunch of buildings!
Those property owners who would be wiped out for this Taj-MTA (the 95%-of-the-cost-for-5%-of-the-benefit part) may stop it yet.
It's much more than signage. It's crowding, old design which has fallen behind safe practices, lack of access to the disabled, and very confusing to the people whom New York wants to invite to visit the city. It's also about creatiung a new free interchange, inside fare control, between two lines that do not have it there yet.
"They could accomplish 95% of their goals with 5% of the money. Got a problem with signage? No choice but to tear down a bunch of buildings!"
No; they could accomplish 100% of YOUR goals with 5% of the money. But your goals are incredibly easy, since they do not include any of the above.
"Those property owners who would be wiped out for this Taj-MTA (the 95%-of-the-cost-for-5%-of-the-benefit part) may stop it yet."
Better yet, they could see all of downtown die a slow death if MTA decides to hire you as a consultant. :0)
Interesting point. The question is, what is the value of amenity?
The City has been and is planning to spend big bucks on the quality of the station environment all over the city -- Times Square, Atlantic Avenue, Moynihan Station, etc. Then there is the "arts for transit" program. And the multi-year, couple of billion dollar project to improve the customer information system. And at Grand Central, the MTA is doubling the cost just to have a separate "arrival area" for the LIRR.
In short, big bucks are being spent on amenity. That money is being borrowed. So the fare is rising, and the Second Avenue Subway is on thin ice. Is it worth it? Hard to say.
But take the money for the Taj-MTA, and apply it to better downtown access with new capacity. There is no lack of good ideas (such as yours, SAS, a commuter rail tunnel, etc). But there IS a lack of money. We need to prioritize.
Perhaps you could demonstrate for us how that is done, underground on several levels, without money. AAnd, by the way, doing it on On an O-gauge train at home doesn't count.
Projecting again.
And if really can do it, then you can propose it in a letter as something that would appear between the Partial Build and No Build alternatives on the Scoping Document.
The big bucks are for the passageways, as these involve digging up the street and relocating utlities, and ADA access. To get to Dey Street, you need to remove the buildings.
The Taj-MTA -- the above ground entrance -- is a small part of the cost of the project, and if it can raise the value of the development rights above it, which could be resold, it might more than pay for itself.
Sounds like the way to pay for SAS: Make it the Second-And-A-Half Avenue Subway, and just go mid-block the whole way.
Let's see what the final cost for buying out those businesses are before declaring it a cakewalk. NYTimes is still bogged down getting their parcel on 8th Avenue assembled.
That's the best idea since I thought up calling it the Second Avenue Subway.com four years ago, and selling stock since people could use computers while riding the train, and there must be some way to make money.
Either that, or you just like blowing smoke on Subtalk...it'sa OK. It's Subtalk, so it's harmless.
Missouri is a little slow on the ball. But St. Louis is learning fast.
They need to be shown first. :-)
I don't think it's absolutely essential, but the proposed connection to the N/R and E would be nice. But once the passageways have gone that far, they should continue one more block to the 1/9.
I do agree that much could probably be trimmed from the MTA's plans.
I don't see anything in the meager posted plans that would suggest they are doing what you propose.
The drawing shows nothing underneath John St at Nassau St. And at Fulton and Nassau, where they show improvements to the A mezzanine, the J/M/Z take up the first two levels below ground and the A platform is 3 levels down. This suggests that one will still need to go down to the A platform to cross under the J/M/Z tracks. I guess the improvement will be escalators instead of stairs.All in all, for $750 million, the benefits are disappointing.
You don't have enough information to reach that conclusion. You might start by asking MTA for more details regarding the aforementioned transfer, as well as other issues.
You may be right - but inquire first. Learn. Then decide.
Sure I do. I have the MTA's own drawings, which I presume are accurate. They show:
1. No transfer to the 1/9.
2. No passageway under the J/M/Z as suggested by David.
3. No passageway east of William St on Fulton St for easy access to the Water St skyscrapers and South St Seaport. (Have you ever tried walking the Fulton St sidewalk?)
I like what they do propose, but I am disappointed that it costs $750 million. Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am.
Those drawings are not all-inclusive, as any reasonable person could quickly deduce. For example, the station rehabs on the IRT are not shown in detail.
Again, you may be right - but you won't know that for sure until you find out. And you'll have the opportunity (which you can avail yourself of) to tell MTA in writing that they should do more, if their answer is unsatisfactory.
If you have time to post on Subtalk and jump to conclusions without all the facts, you have time to do a little homework. You'll learn something you don't know right now, and we can learn from you too.
Or you can practice intellectual laziness and do nothing.
I have done a lot more homework than most other people:
1. I have counted steps down from street level to each of the levels at the Fulton St station, so I know to within a few feet how deep each platform at Fulton St is.
2. I have observed the conditions on the Fulton St sidewalk at various times of day.
3. I have closely examined the MTA's own description of its proposed plans.
If there is absolutely no suggestion in the plans of any changes at John and Nassau Sts, I don't see the point of writing the MTA and saying, "Excuse me, by some chance, does your plan include any construction at John and Nassau Sts.?"
I have plenty of information, given what I see published on the MTA's web site, to justify my disappointment.
"3. I have closely examined the MTA's own description of its proposed plans."
If you are referring to the plans you posted about, you know they are inadequate (or at least incomplete) for this purpose, so examining them means very little in supporting your criticism. However, if you are referring to more detailed plans to which you have not posted a link, then please so state.
"If there is absolutely no suggestion in the plans of any changes at John and Nassau Sts, I don't see the point of writing the MTA and saying, "Excuse me, by some chance, does your plan include any construction at John and Nassau Sts.?" "
To the contrary. It is at this very stage that you should be asking these questions. I am disappointed that you do not.
"I have plenty of information, given what I see published on the MTA's web site, to justify my disappointment. "
I have just shown you that is not the case. You will not follow up with any more research, of course, because it isn't worth it to you. It does, however, reduce the validity of your criticism.
David's idea is a nice one. I hope he writes it up and mails it in.
I have always maintained that if you have an opinion about something MTA does, you should feel free to write to them (and they need to hear from you and other taxpayers). You are correct, though, in that my initial point to you was that you were jumping the gun on something where you were not necessarily wrong, but had not built a good case yet. (And you might be wrong, partially right, or completely right. You don't know that yet). Doing a little more work (you seemed to take pleasure in the effort you put in; just extend it some to focus more on the details of the rehab and other issues where I showed you you don't have a complete picture) will be helpful to you to increase the credibility of your argument to MTA and others (elected officials should see your opinion too!).
If you decide in the end that this thing is a boondoggle, fine. If you want to post the additional details here, great. I'm interested, and so are others (esp. David Greenberger!) They may affect what I write to MTA about it (and I have already mailed in one suggestion to expand the list of Alternatives - but I'm not necessarily finished writing) and how others look at it.
By the way, in whose district (state assembly, US Rep etc.) do you live?
Have you ever once written to the MTA and received more information than was already publicly available?
Yes, in this sense: Publicly available information that is put out may not be complete information (eg details missing). And not all documents have all the details. So you have to go to multiple places to get "the whole picture."
This does not mean MTA is hiding something; if you ask a specific question not covered in the document(s) you've seen, and it is public information, or it is information that the MTA official can give you, then you will learn something new. It also means that you can then share it with other people. MTA cannot anticipate every question which might be asked, and sometimes the true answer to a question is "we don't know yet."
So if you ask, and then tell them what you want in the way of an answer, and why you're asking, the person answering you can better answer your question.
I can tell you that I have received both general answers and very specific answers to my questions. I have very rarely received a "form letter." Someone at MTA (or SEPTA, or Amtrak, to which I have written several times) read my letter and answered me point for point.
I was not always 100% satisfied with the answer. Sometimes I was dissatisfied. But I always gained something from the interaction.
I keep my correspondence polite and professional and constructive. Over time (years!), too, people at MTA, the PA and other agencies have come to recognize who I am (attending hearings helps too). They have often gone out of their way to be helpful to me. I have even met some of them.
For example, look at this. Before writing the text, I called the appropriate dept. at the TA and then sent a letter requesting confirmation of certain details. I got a prompt reply, and a referral to someone very knowledgable who courteously and graciously answered all my questions to the best of his ability. Now, this wasn't the Second Av Subway or other controversial topic, but I get that kind of treatment no matter what I ask. For that I am appreciative.
Unfortunately, I don't know if it's fixable. According to nycsubway.org, the southbound J/M/Z tracks are just 20 feet below surface level -- too shallow to construct a passageway above them.
It's not in the way at John Street. That's where a new passageway could go, at approximately the level of the A/C platform but without the confusion and the crowds of the A/C platform, and without the current ups and downs, since staircases (and elevators) could lead directly between the 2/3 and the new passageway.
Of the six elements of the Fulton St program, only one of them involves tearing down buildings (i.e., the construction of the new main entrance on Broadway between Fulton & John). This new entrance hall is not 95% of the cost.
The Fulton St project will add capacity, because it will reduce station dwell times, therefore allowing more trains to pass through the line in the same amount of time. Adding access for disabled passengers creates capacity of another kind (making the system accessible to people who otherwise couldn't use it).
Creating connections that don't currently exist and making existing connections more efficient adds capacity in another way, by making certain commuting routes more attractive.
No doubt the most expensive. Drop it.
Here's the basic problem with a the idea of a "Downtown Grand Central": there is no single arrival point downtown.
Commuters arrive from waterfront to waterfront at a dozen different places:
* Hudson River (WFC ferry)
* WTC (PATH)
* Greenwich (1/9)
* Chambers (E)
* Cortlandt (N/RW)
* Broadway (4/5)
* Fulton (A/C)
* Nassau (J/M/Z)
* William (2/3)
* Water (SAS?)
* Bus hub (location?)
* East River (Wall St. ferry)
The city needs streetlife to connect these nodes, not an underground suburban shopping mall.
Fix what we've got, but drop the Taj-MTA, the Dey St. tunnel and the PA underground mall as well. They're antithetical to what New York is about. Plow this money into new capacity instead.
But it is clear you have absolutely no idea how to do that. If you did, you would have said so.
"drop the Taj-MTA, the Dey St. tunnel and the PA underground mall as well. They're antithetical to what New York is about."
They're antithecal to what your post is about, but we already knew that. :0)
I like underground passageways to get to and from work. Why? It saves time, since you don't have to wait at a light. If you are stunned that anyone would care about the time it takes to cross a street, you are not from New York City.
It isn't as important as in Midtown, where you've got avenues with signal priority. I think a cross-town underground boulevard would be a great thing under 48th street or so. Downtown has small streets, and is pedestrian friendly.
Still, there are three streets that you do not want to cross - Broadway, Church, and especially West. Grade separated pedways across those streets, and more pedestrialized streets, would really enhance Downtown.
On the contrary, on the whole, Dowtown streets are much more pedestrian friendly than Midtown.
"If you are stunned that anyone would care about the time it takes to cross a street, you are not from New York City."
If you think pedestrian tunnels are the way to get people aroud town, you must be from Toronto.
It's interesting that Simon likes to engage in debates on the fringes of an issue when he is confronted with the fact that he has no reasonable solution to offer the main issue MTA is trying to answer.
It's easy to dismiss somebody else' solution and call it ridiculous, especially when you don't have to think of one yourself.
Ron
You haven't pointed that out yet, because it hasn't happened yet. How can I be mad at you for something you can't take credit for?
Why do certain "Urbanists" hate underground passageways? Suburban shopping malls are nothing more than carless streets with roofs over them.
Outdoor streets are exposed to the cold, rain, snow, wind and various other forms of atmospheric nastiness. The outside is great on a beautiful sunny day, but I don't go to a park on a rainy day.
Fully indoor cities will always be the wave of the future.
"Of the six elements of the Fulton St program, only one of them involves tearing down buildings"
No doubt the most expensive. Drop it.
So that's your game? Completely ignore another person's argument when it doesn't suit your own. If you had paid attention, then you would have read oakapple's next sentence: "This new entrance hall is not 95% of the cost."
If you drop the Edifice Complex and the sterile hamster tunnels (which do suck the life out of cities such as Toronto, Houston and Minneapolis, and in any event does not reflect NY), I have no doubt the vast majority of the cost will be eliminated. Spend it on capacity expansion instead. It's not like we're rolling in bucks.
Lower Manhattan needs a few sterile hamster tunnels for crosstown movement. On some crosstown streets, the street-level sidewalks are totally inadequate for the traffic. They are dangerous, too. People are walking within inches of passing vehicles and in some danger of being jostled into the street.
Can't be done. Many of the crosstown streets downtown are only 1 lane wide. Don't forget, lower Manhattan was built around the same time central London was rebuilt after the great fire.
Those are the safest to navigate. Traffic calm where traffic is going too fast.
It is the wide ones, like West St., that are the most dangerous. (And that's the one street they aren't going to tunnel under.)
It's walking along the narrow crosstown streets, not crossing them, that's dangerous. I guess you've never been almost knocked off the sidewalk by another pedestrian while a truck was passing by inches away at 15 mph. This has happened to me several times and is not an enjoyable experience.
It is the wide ones, like West St., that are the most dangerous.
West Street is very time consuming to cross but relatively safe to cross if you wait at a light until all the traffic has come to a halt and you have a walk signal (which might be delayed if turning traffic gets the right of way first). The chance that someone will deliberately accelerate from a stop while they have a red light is relatively small.
Also, West St already has 2 bridges over it and will almost certainly eventually get a third.
Why isn't it pedestrianised?
Because the Lower Manhattan street grid was designed during the horse-and-buggy era. Individual streets and intersections have of course been "tweaked" over the years, but opportunities to fundamentally rethink the infrastructure occur only rarely. We have such an opportunity now, and the Fulton Street Transit Center is one of the plans for doing so.
Errrmmmm... so was much of many cities in the UK - most have large pedestrianised cores. Banning anything more than a horse has been shown to work :-D
No, no, no! Many cities in Britain spent huge sums of money on shoving pedestrians into underpasses 40 or so years ago. The result was that unsavoury characters frequented these underpasses and that people would rather run across 6 lanes of dual carriageway than use the underpasses for fear of being mugged, raped or murdered. The same cities have been spending huge sums of money for the last decade or so trying to fill in underpasses, ban cars from many streets entirely, and demolish the dual carriageways which have stifled City Centres. Don't spend half a century wasting money like this - just ban the cars from the streets with high pedestrian traffic to begin with!
John
And trucks don't always observe the posted restrictions. If you try walking down Nassau St in the evening when it's still supposedly a pedestrian mall, you'd better walk on the sidewalk or you'll get mashed by a delivery truck.
Usually by means of turning the hazard lights on and driving at 5mph. There is also usually a time restriction (e.g. "No Vehicles. Except deliveries Midnight-7am.")
I depends. We have our failed passageways too. Roslyn, VA features an above ground pedway network that no one every used, for the reasons you mention.
OTOH, plenty of people use Underground Montreal, or walk through passageways at GCT to get to the subway without going up to the street, or walk through the passageways at Rock Center. I think the lesson is you need a critical mass of people, and lots of shops along the way. In other words, it will be critical to get retail along that Dey Street passageway. And you only want such passageways in the densest corridors of the densest cities.
Tribeca Bridge at Chambers Street (1992)
South Bridge at Liberty Street (1986)
and
Rector Street Bridge (2002)
Let's also not forget the lost third one:
North Bridge (1986-2001)
I did not forget about the North Bridge. I trust it will be replaced; it is sorely needed. There are many people waiting to cross West St at Vesey during the rush hour.
You seem to have some pretty firm opinions about cost and benefit already? Why bother with the facts now?
Seriously, though, it is good to see you ask that question.
Toronto seems to like it a lot. But you know a lot more than they do, apparently. Should they appoint you Mayor?
You're right. And neither Toronto nor the new Fulton terminal have any. So you needn't worry.
Then why not eliminate the new entrance, thereby eliminating the need to condemn property, and just do the rest of the project?
There is another problem -- getting a new passageway from the A/C line to the 4/5 and the Dey Street Concourse. One of the problems is that everyone gets off the A/C and tries to get into the first car on the 4/5 through the one opening. Having additional people walking down the platform to get from the A/C and J/M/Z to the Dey Street tunnel would make it worse.
So you need a new concourse behind the eastern wall of the 4/5 Fulton Street station. And I don't think you can go there without going under the buildings.
I've worked in this area almost my entire working life, and believe me that block would not be missed. It is a hodepodge of small buildings in poor condition on a prime site. Only a couple of these were built to last. It will someday be assembled in any event. The only good part of it is the underground barbers and other services, but these could be retained. In fact, capitalizing on what seems to be its key commercial market, perhaps the MTA could install a "barbers row" with room for 4-5 competing shops. Could become a tourist attraction.
"...................................................................."
Besides the improvements in existing connections, and ADA access, all very important, the MTA is proposing something else: "both paid and unpaid" connections between the E terminal at WTC, and the NR station nearby at Cortlandt Street. A free transfer there would be very nice, in that there currently is no way to transfer between the Broadway BMT and 8th Avenue lines anywhere in the subway system.
But I want to take this one step further.
Is it possible (and forgive me if there past threads on this I am missing) to extend the E tracks past the current bumper blocks and actually merge the line into the Broadway line (under Church Street if I read the map correctly)? Some of you have posted that the Montague tunnel and the line to 95 Street-Fyt Hamilton will have excess capacity when the Manny B reopens the the R becomes its lone occupant during the day. I don't know if that would hold when the M traverses it as well.
Would it make sense to extend the E, even part-time, through the Montague? In non-revenue or emergency modes, you could send A trains through this route as well if the Cranberry tubes were temporarily out of service for some reason.
Is this even possible to do, engineering-wise? How far back up the line would the MTA have to go to line up the E's tracks to merge with the BMT (eg do we need a ramp and how steep)?
Besides switches and a new bellmouth, this would be, what, one city block's worth of new tracks?
Is what you are saying that the E tracks would have to turn too sharply (reverse the curve) to make the merge onto the BMT line?
You have pointed out that the two services are at the same level.
Still, DeKalb is the issue.
My Plan:
(V) 6th Ave Local to Chambers Street [Give 6th Ave a shot at downdown, eh?]
(C) 8th Ave Local to Hings Highway via Culver Express
(A) 8th Ave Express to Hillside Avenue (via Fulton Express and an extention along Liberty Avenue then north to Jamaica Center and Hillside Avenue via Supthin Boulevard)
(E) 8th Ave Express to the Rockaways via Fulton Local
Elias
Probably possible quite cheaply at grade level, since both E and N/R are roughly one level below Church St.* There might be some issues if they are at slightly different levels. Incredibly tricky if you want a flying crossover, since the A is 2 levels down, so you can't rework the E or the N/R to descend another level down by the time it gets to Fulton St.
*However, then the E tracks no longer dead end at WTC. In rush hour, the E still has to terminate but can't relay south of the station. How do you get passengers to the correct departing track, since they can no longer swing around the south end of the tracks?
Good point. A pedestrial overpass with switch-back ADA 1:12 ramps? This would require a lot of rebuilding - but they're doing it anyway...of course if they want the new walking connection between the BMT and IND to use the current pedestrian space, obviously these two ideas can't be done at the same time.
Still, this is a Scoping Document stage. It is not too late to at least introduce the idea. I may do that when I file my comments.
Thanks.
Can't do. The E platforms are only 15' below the surface of Church St. Would have to be an underpass.
if the connection is not routinely used a simpler merge may be enough. This type of merge means that trains might be held up waiting for a train to cross in front of them, but if we are talking non-revenue moves or only part-time stuff it might not be an issue.
But your point is well taken.
IMO, it would be a nice connection to have available, but it's probably not worth the cost. In 9/01, when all the stations in the area were still closed and we all thought (or at least I thought) they were all seriously damaged and would need to be rebuilt, I had suggested including such a connection in the rebuild.
You recently asked about how to get from Bay Ridge to Inwood (how about Inwood to Coney Island or Brighton Beach?)
This is one way to do it, if the E is extended to Brooklyn.
There are some difficulties besides cost to consider. But I am in favor of the MTA considering the use of 9/11 rebuilding funds to build a connection. It may not be the Preferred Alternative - but I want them to look at it. This is the stage (Scoping Document) where that is appropriate.
This is one way to do it, if the E is extended to Brooklyn.
There are some difficulties besides cost to consider. But I am in favor of the MTA considering the use of 9/11 rebuilding funds to build a connection. It may not be the Preferred Alternative - but I want them to look at it. This is the stage (Scoping Document) where that is appropriate."
Agreed. I like the idea. I think we should all try our best to see that this proposal is at least studied. Thus, I'll borrow your refrain and encourage epistolary exchanges with the MTA.
Write a letter to MTA, specifying that you are offering testimony to the Scoping Document of the DEIS. Address it Community and Govt relations, MTA, 347 Madison Av NY NY 10017, or show up at the hearing and say so.
1. How to get from Bay Ridge to Inwood ?
a) "R" train to 4th Ave. for "F" to Jay St. for "A"
b) "R" train to 42nd St-Times Sq. for "A"
2. How about Inwood to Coney Island or Brighton Beach?
a) "A" train to 42nd St-Times Sq. for "W" for Coney and "Q" for Brighton.
I don't understand what the problem is. Also, once the Manny B and Coney Island opens in 2004, the trip will be even simpler.
1. How to get from Bay Ridge to Inwood ?
a) "R" train to 36th St. for "B" or "D" to 59th St. for "A"
2. How about Inwood to Coney Island or Brighton Beach?
a) "A" train to 59th St-Columbus Circle for "B" or "D" for Coney and Brighton
It's no reason not to have another, but there are already free transfers at 42 St, Queens Plaza, Roosevelt Ave, and 71-Continental, plus the proposed transfer at Lawrence St.
The other transfers you mention are in Queens, which is not directly relevant to the problem of connections betwen Manhattan and Brooklyn on these lines.
Lawrence St is in Brooklyn, and is scheduled for completion well before the connection at Dey St.
PS. Could you please consider being more polite when you think someone else has made a mistake. I don't feel the need to make negative comments about the extent of your research or thought when you make a mistake. You shouldn't need to do so when you think others have made a mistake.
Many apologies if the previous comment was taken as negative. It was not intended to be a criticism, but I agree that I should have said something different. The person's post was preented in amost helpful manner, and I did appreciate it.
This is indeed good news.
Quoting from the 2004 capital plan, http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm:
"Also, $5 million is included for stairway improvements to improve transfer passenger circulation at the Court Square (G) station on the Crosstown line and to design a new passageway between the Jay Street (A,C,F) station on the Fulton line and Lawrence Street (M,N,R) station on the 4th Avenue line."
Thank you for posting that.
The Chambers-Cortlandt connection from the A & C would be about as long as the 42 St connection. A large portion of E riders could transfer in Queens.
Other potential riders in this group include A line riders from Inwood, Harlem or Columbus Circle, for example, who would transfer to the E.
There is a way to transfer between the Bway BMT and the 8th Ave. lines at 42nd St.-Times Square. Granted its a long walkway, nevertheless it is a FREE transfer.
There are also 3 transfers between Bway BMT & 8th Ave. lines along Queens Blvd. ("E" & "R").
The lines are close enough together that you just get off at the street you need, and walk a block or two in either direction.
Elias
You *still* have to go out in the weather, or to you actually work in the tunnel. I always took the Broadway Lion and walked the extra block rather than tollerate the (F) train from Brooklyn. In fact I walked extra both in Brooklyn and in Manhattan just to use the Broadway Lion and to avoid the (F) train, which would have been closer at both ends.
Yes, in any kind of weather! It would never have occured to me to use the (F) just because it was raining or snowing.
Elias : O
At 23rd Street, the C/E and N/R are separated by three long blocks -- and the C/E is the closest line there to the Hudson. Would you suggest that someone bound for the waterfront take the N/R to 23rd and walk?
How should I get from the Fulton Street line to Astoria? From Bay Ridge to Inwood?
Both very easy with an Unlimited Metrocard.
Fulton St Line, A or C to Jay St, walk to Lawrence St and get on the N train to Astoria.
Bay Ridge, R to Lawrence St, walk to Jay St and get on the A train to Inwood.
Shows how the IND was built deliberately to be awkward though.
Many of us will have little choice but to use the 41st Street passageway.
As a Manhattanite, I'm quite used to triple-transfer commutes. Ever try to get from the Upper West Side to NYU Medical Center pre-MetroCard? Three trains (and two moderately painful transfers) followed by what sure felt like a seven-mile walk (this was in the summer and I have a low tolerance for heat and humidity). I was actually riding on a train for only a few minutes of the half-hour commute.
Arti
The Civic Alliance workshop, however, advocated an even bolder idea. In their proposal, as in Ron's, the E would hook up to the present N/R Broadway line. South of Whitehall St, a new tunnel would connect to the transit museum's Court St station, and from there to Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. Then, another new tunnel would connect that station to Atlantic terminal, where it would join the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue branch (converted to subway use).
A major objection raised here is how to make the connection from the E to the N/R, because it doesn't appear that a flyover is possible, and a grade crossing is also unacceptable. The Civic Alliance proposal solves this problem in a radical way. In their version, southbound Broadway service would terminate at City Hall, and northbound Broadway service would use the Nassau St line. Hence, the Broadway BMT would never again use Cortlandt, Rector, or Whitehall stations. E train service to these stations is arguably more valuable (because of the E's express connection to Queens and its connections to Penn Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal). Still, W and R riders would lose their 1-seat ride from Queens to Lower Manhattan.
The Brooklyn end of the plan resembles the Brookfield proposal to connect the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal to the Transit Museum tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. But Brookfield then hijacks the Cranberry St tunnel, instead of building a new East River tunnel. If the Brookfield proposal would cost 2.0 billion, this proposal likely would cost more like 4 or 5 billion. The Civic Alliance had transit experts on their panel, so this is probably do-able. I leave it to you whether it is worth the cost.
Incidentally, the same document makes another proposal that has been discussed here: connecting PATH to the Lexington Avenue subway.
If downtown R service terminates at City Hall, the Montague Tunnel is now very lightly used. (How many people really want to go from S Brooklyn to Nassau St.? Absolute max 12 tph.) Now there is plenty of room in the Montague for the E. No need for a new tunnel.
The point of the new tunnel is to connect to the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR, and therefore to create the fast one-seat ride from JFK Airport and Jamaica Station to Lower Manhattan. Assuming you buy the arguments for doing that, this is one way to accomplish it.
AIM also wrote: "(How many people really want to go from S Brooklyn to Nassau St.?)"
The point is that, if you believe it's beneficial to bring Atlantic Avenue service into Lower Manhattan on the E, then R service needs to go *somewhere*. The J/M/Z stops in Lower Manhattan are tolerably close to the current R stops, so the proposal assumes that this would be acceptable to R riders. Those destined for Broadway Line stops above City Hall would no doubt transfer to Bridge line trains, rather than continuing through the Montague St tunnel.
Incidentally, my prior post left out the link to the Civic Alliance report. It's: http://www.civic-alliance.org/pdf/WorkshopReport.pdf
I didn't mention that my suggestion also requires a connection from the R tracks under Willoughby St to the LIRR tracks.
Even less expensive and just about equally effective is Larry Littlefield's proposal to run the new special trains from the LIRR station to Nassau St. via the Montague. (Though he doesn't suggest converting the LIRR tracks to a super-subway).
But in any case, the Montague is so under-utilized that there is no real need to build a new tunnel.
BAD PLAN!
Show My Plan to the Civic Alliance. It does much more than what any Atlantic Avenue scheme could do, and it does not disrupt existing subway structures.
It brings NJT into downtown, and also permits freight to cross the Hudson south of Albany as well.
Elias
Well, it's the MTA, the Port Authority and NJT whom you need to persuade, not the Civic Alliance.
But what the Civic Alliance seems to have been aiming for was to leverage the existing plant as much as possible, to minimize the cost. "Minimize" is obviously a relative term here, since we're talking billions of dollars.
Elias's plan requires a new subway along Avenue C up to about 18th St, a new 4-track Hudson River tunnel, and a new 4-track East River tunnel. All worthy ideas, perhaps, but you're talking another order of magnitude of expense.
No one yet has figured how to pay for the more modest plans under discussion for creating a JFK/LIRR connection to Lower Manhattan. To say "BAD PLAN" and then propose an alternative about 5 times more expensive is an exercise in fantasy.
Yes, it is an exercise in fantasy, but it is also fivetimes more valuable: It brings all of New Jersey into lower Manhattan on a one seat ride: It brings Long Island into lower manhattan with a greater tph than Flatbush can handle (because it is a station, rather than a terminal, trains are serviced on the opposite coast) It gives lower Manhattan direct access to both LAG and Newark Airports, and it provides freight access to Long Island. Those are FIVE services that other plans do not address.
A Transfer to the (E) Atlantic Avenue Line, with a non-stop subway is not a one seat ride. Getting beyond Flatbush Avenue will prove to be more expensive than building a four track tunnel under the East River, why? becasue of the existing infrastructure. You will have to back up a half mile or more along the existing Atlantic line to get enough space to achieve a low enough level to pass under existing infrastructure. There is A HUGE expense and disruption to attach to existing lines in Manhattan. The subway route along Avenue C is a very deep tunnel, cutting, cut with a boaring machine that will be well below existing infrastructure, and will as deep as the bed rock under the WTC site. While it is a longer distance and two major tunnels, we do need the capacity or will in the future, the costs are mitigated by not disrupting existing infrastructre.
This is a very important consideration, and has a price of all its own.
Elias
Arti
OTOH, they can already get to the Broadway local easily by transferring from the express (at Pacific, DeKalb, Canal, 14th, 34th, or 42nd), while it's difficult to get to 8th Avenue. Perhaps the majority should be forced into a slight inconvenience if an greater inconvenience to a minority would be eliminated in the process. I'm not sure.
Also, it's nice to have the flexibility of two alternative routes between Canal and DeKalb -- consider the upcoming weekend Q reroute via tunnel, which changes the line's schedules but doesn't require a full-fledged reroute. Then again, this connection would grant a new alternative to north side bridge service via the W4 switches.
If the 6th Ave side of the Bridge were to shut down for any reason, the B and D trains would effectively use the Montague Rat hole, then go via. 8th Ave local fromm WTC to Spring, then do a double switch, once at each end of West 4th st. Then it's back to regular routing toward CPW and the Bronx. Not as much fun when the D line used the Willy-Br for a short time, then a reverse via. M to Brooklyn back in 1981-2 or so, but this will do.
No more confusion as to which line I should take to the Bronx and which I should take to Brooklyn if I'm at Hearld Square. And you still have a one seat, one train run from Brooklyn to the Bronx.
This is an excellent plan indeed.
And the new alternative route wouldn't be able to handle weekday train traffic, anyway.
Look at all the Lexington Ave traffic using a single track during rush hour because of an "incident" on the other track. Or 5 lines on the Broadway BMT, going on the local track because something happened on the express track.
In a pinch, it will work, not as a full-time service plan, but something usable for weekend G.O.'s or emergency "temporary service changes".
As it is there is no 6th Avenue Service south of HOUSTON street, and with your change there would be no BROADWAY service to downtown either.
This is unacceptable. Why should the only services to downtown exclude passengers from the middle of mid-town?
Me thinks youse guys ought to rethinks your thinkings!
If you want to run tracks through Court Street, then were were you going to move the museum to?
Building another tunnel seems a little crowded down there... will it go Under the Joralemon Tunnel? or will you stay north of that (Grace or Remsen Street are your only two choices there, plus digging to get under Joralemon street anyway...
And Why Connect to the Schermerhor complex at all. Just because it has an unused track. Poor reason... better (if your line were to be to the south of the Joralemon Street tunnel, that it come right up Atlantic Avenue, and avoid ditzing with more working subway lines.
If all you want to do is to get LIRR customers into downtown.... you could extend the LIRR through a new tunnel and bring it into a terminal on the West End Drive area, and avoid all of the subway lines.
Of course if you were to ask me, I would tell you about my LIRR/NJT station in the WTC complex with access to WTC via Avenue C from the Montauk Branch in LIC... with connections to both Newark and LAG airports!
Elias
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
To the rest of you, do you notice how Slant 40 has become the #1 poster since CC Local took ill? I counted 103 postings within the last 18 hours, and many times he replied to a new subject within minutes of it being posted. Just seems a little odd here.
As for CC Local, welcome back! While it seems odd that your Slant (who seems to be your best friend on here) has been posting even more than you used to, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are for real and really did need to go to the hospital. But in all due respect, I hope you can see how things seem a little suspicious. -Nick
The reason for that is I have a laptop with wireless connection I and I carry it everywhere with me and I post when ever I get some free time!
And also to quote my self previously that im not a spammer!
While it seems odd that your Slant who seems to be your best friend on here .
Why is it odd?
Is there any specific reason for this oddness?
Why is it odd?
Is there any specific reason for this oddness?"
Yes, there is a specific reason for the oddness. Because you and CC Local are known for being best buddies....CC Local posted quite often before taking ill, and then as soon as he was off to the hospital you were posting more than you ever had before. In other words, it almost seems like you and CC Local were the same person; even though I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he really was hospitalized. -Nick
Same person?????????
A question ARE YOU NUTS?
If not we are not the same person!
ARIVIDECHY !
Well i guess you have not been here long Enough ! LOL
I would not give CC the benefit of the doubt. There is no substantial evidence countering my claims that he and "Dave" are the same person and therefore he was never in the hospital.
Meanwhile, N_Slant_40 first called my claims of such crazy, but later warmed to them. Unlike that such a response would occur if they were the same person.
It might be better if you posted only when you had something to contribute rather than just when you have free time.
Tom
Can we add a few other posters to that list? :0)
A. How is an R62 able to link up with an R22??
B. What's with the rollsigns? Is this a 1 or a 5 train?
C. I know this is beating a dead horse, but what was the MTA thinking? White paint scheme?!!
-Stef
2. A Yard move on the 2/5. 7534 in white dates the pic back to at least 1987.
3. The MTA genius who chose white paint was smoking something so good, I wish I'd had me some. ;-)
David
But it is an easy color to match paint with so just a portion of a car can be repainted without it being noticeable. This was probably the reason it was chosen, since the idea was to clean and if necessary repaint over graffiti daily.
Tom
That's what I thought too, but my mom says it is black that shows dirt more. She only buys white cars just for this reason. I think she's right.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
They won the war, but ultimately some of those cars got tagged anyway.
After getting off the southbound (W) at Queensboro Plaza, I went upstairs in hopes of getting a picture of a (7) coming around the turn, but it was already in the station. Got on, hoping to salvage the day with some railfanning of the Flushing line.
Our train was held for about 5-7 minutes. First they said "police investigation", then "medical emergency", then "incident". We just sat there. Finally after that, we left.
As we were pulling out, I did a double take. I could've sworn I saw R-36's in front of me out the window, going east, but that wasn't possible...no, it WAS an R-36, #7, with people in it, going EAST, coming from DOWNSTAIRS...I thought well, maybe it's gonna go express back, because there was a lapse in service. But no, it cut dead in front of us, and our train stopped.
We wait. "Sorry for the delay", says the conductor...
2 minutes later, we start moving again, finally. Conductor says, "Attention passengers, after 33rd Street, the next stop will be 52nd Street. We apologize for any inconvenience..."
We pull in to 52nd, and after repeated announcements for another minute, they change their minds and retract the announcement, pull out, and sit at 40 St for another 2-3 minutes. Meanwhile another 7 of R-62's comes up behind us, about two signals apart. It eventually creeps into the station, sits for awhile, I cross over, and it leaves, then it, too, sits at 40 St for a few minutes. An R-33 train creeps up behind that and does the same (the one I got pictures of). Then there is a lapse.
Eventually an R-62 going back to Manhattan comes, I get on it, switch to (W), straight to Canal and home on (J). Worst trip ever, even worse than my first trip where I left at 2PM and ran out of daylight in under 2 1/2 hours.
There are about three sets left. I can personally vouch for two on Thursday.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Do you have Gene Sansone's Book on the evolution of NYC subway cars? It came out in 1997, and also should be available from the Transit Museum store. About $60 I think. Hard cover, with lots of pictures and diagrams and historical anecdotes.
Isn't somebody forgetting about the R11's? It isn't that the TA was unaware of stainless steel's benefits; they just did not appreciate its worth.
Amazing, you learn something new everyday.
:)
Keep in mind those were concept cars at that time. Many of the items had to wait for the solid state electronics era to be considered practical in subway service.
Tom
Some questions for anyone who has seen it:
(1) Is it worth seeing? I live on LI, but don't mind going to Hoboken to see a worthwhile exhibit.
(2) Best way to get there from NY? PATH, NJT #126 bus from PABT, or drive?
(3) Any admission charge at the musuem?
Thank you to all who answer.
Admission is $2 for non-members. It's about a mile and a third from Hoboken Terminal; cabs are a $3 flat rate within Hoboken city limits. The bus runs a couple blocks away on Washington St. Driving is probably easiest from LI.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
if you have seen this R143,on the left side of the car,there is a burn
like mark on this car,what car # is it
a.8109
b.8128
c.8120
d.8116
name the song for nyc,s famous subway line.
*hint*the R10,s were famous for running on this line.
til next time
Its (A)
a.8109
b.8128
c.8120
d.8116
name the song for nyc,s famous subway line.
*hint*the R10,s were famous for running on this line.
dont know the Name but it is Ether about the A or C !
Man, You really need to work on the writing.
Duke Ellington's "Take The A train".
Peace,
ANDEE
question#1 anwser:a 8109(partly) b.8128
question#2 anwser:take the A train,wirtten by billy strayhorn,sung by
duke ellington.
8109 also has a burn-like mark on it,s side.so you would say there were 2 anwsers.
til next time
(1) 242VCP - Bway (Lcl) - 96 - Bway-7th Exp - Bkln Lcl - New Lots
(2) 241 - Bronx Lcl - Bway-7th Exp - Bkln Lcl - Flatbush
(3) 148 Lenox Terminal - Bway-7th Lcl - South Ferry
(4) Woodlawn - Lex Exp - Bkln Exp - Utica
(5) Dyre - Bronx Rush Hr Peak Dir Exp - Lex Exp - SF (peak to Flatbush)
<5> 238 - Bronx Exp - Lex Exp - Bkln Exp - Flatbush
(6) Westchester Sq - Pelham Lcl - Lex Lcl - Brooklyn Bridge
<6> Pelham Bay Pk - Pelham Exp - Lex Lcl - Brooklyn Bridge
(7) Flushing Lcl
<7> Flushing Exp
(9) 137 - Bway Lcl - GCT
I think this would be a big improvement on the IRT.
This is not minor.
1/2/3 and shuttle are 1.5 levels below the street.
BMT is 2.5 levels below.
7 is 3.5 levels below.
This "diveunder" would run into the BMT tracks. And if you wanted to lower the BMT tracks, you'd have to lower the 7 also.
If we're going to spend that kind of money on the IRT, I'd rather see all the platforms lengthened to hold 12 cars.
But it isn't under 42nd Street. It's under 41st. It therefore has precisely no effect on any line turning from Broadway North of Times Square onto 42nd Street. Yes, a dive-under would have to drop 2 levels to avoid the BMT, but that isn't too monstrous. At a 4% gradient (not unreasonable as IIRC there's a 7% gradient somewhere on the Subway), we're talking a 600ft incline. That's 2 and a bit short blocks, or slightly over half an Avenue block - therefore it could start dropping at 44th St and resume level before 6th Avenue. Even with a platform at Times Square and much easier gradients, this shouldn't present problems.
This "diveunder" would run into the BMT tracks.
No, it would be below them too, parallel to the Flushing line (one block to the North on 42nd St).
If we're going to spend that kind of money on the IRT, I'd rather see all the platforms lengthened to hold 12 cars.
My plan has a major service increase for local stations TSQ-137 (i.e. where it's needed) without extra cars, motormen and conductors... okay the infrastructure costs a bit, but it saves on other costs.
4% is a pretty steep gradient, and you need 16' clearance between train levels.* But even 32'/.03 is only 1000'.
*Don't ask me why. But I've measured level differences in a lot of stations, and it's always at least 16'.
Here's one system I've considered, in which routes are based on their Manhattan Trunk Line.
1-19=Mixed Reroutes
20=Reserved for 2nd Avenue
30=Nassau St
40=Lexington Av
50=Broadway (BMT)
60=6th Avenue
70=Broadway (IRT)
80=8th Avenue
90=Crosstown
A=80
B=60
C=81
D=61
E=82
F=62
G=93
J=30
L=96
M=31
N=72
Q=73
R=75
Franklin S=99
42 Street S=98
V=64
Z=33
1=71
2=72
3=73
4=40
(5)=44
<5>=45
(6)=46
<6>=47
(7)=96
<7>=97
9=79
:o)
wayne
5)Extend the local tracks at 57/Bway north to make IND-style flying junction.
6)Cancel #1 and #9 (routes 71 and 79) skip-stop, make 9 (route 79) express, make #2 (route 72) local, establish #<2> (would be route 75) from Dyre to Flatbush, via Dyre Exp-WPR Exp-Lenox-Bway/7 Av Exp-Clark-Bklyn Lcl.
7)Establish #<4> (route 41) from Woodlawn to New Lots via Bronx Thru Exp, raise center track at 161 to new upper-level platform on stadium side.
8)Establish skip-stop service, if it is feasible (i.e. if it shaves off at least 3 minutes total) on the L (route 91) with an I (route 90) possible skipped stops would be 1,Bed,Grahm,Grand,Mont,Morg,Jeff,Dklb,Hlsy,Wlsn,B/A,Sttr,Nlts,E105.
9)Establish peak-direction express service on the West End Line. M (route 31) would be the local, T (route 76) would be the express.
10)Run a K (route 83) from 71 Av-Rockaway Pk; QB-53 St-8 Av-Houston-Chrystie-WB-Bway-Canarsie-Fulton-Rockaway.
Although this system is probably more logical, and makes reroutes and rearranging routes easier, the railfan in me thinks letters are better. In my fantasy system, despite all the (needed) lines I've created, I still have left the letter "O", and have only used 17 IRT numbers. Besides any new lines I build from here will most likely be extensions of existing ones, like 1/2 the Archer to 165 and the other half to Rosedale-Green Acres, and the Flushing line to extend to the Bronx and hook up with the IRT West Side, to complete my letter "P" of Flushing lines (7, 11, and 17). And the letter "S" is no longer a shuttle designation but a route (Franklin), one that will be extended north somewhere and may go south to become something like a Culver Shuttle Subway.
*An express track on Jamaica Avenue (Avoiding Fulton/Crescent Street)
*Not building the Fulton Subway or the Concourse Subway (sorry, Selkirk), and have built a 2nd Ave subway in the 30's instead, with a branch on 125th Street connecting to the 8th ave line. This 2nd Ave subway would have swallowed the Pelham Line for the IND/BMT use. To make up for the loss of the Concourse, and the loss of the Pelham to the IRT, the Lexington 6 would have been connected to the Third Ave El instead. The D trains would have run to Pelham Pay park via my 125th Street branch to 2nd Ave instead of the non-existant Concourse line in my plan. The D would have been Local, and the 2nd Ave would have been the peak express (like the 6 and < 6 > run today on Pelham.
*Since the Fulton subway would naot have been built, the Fulton El would have been connected to the Cranberry Tube, along with a rebuilt Myrtle Ave el.
Most of these things could have been done, with not too much extra money, just shifting money from some of the things that were actually built. I think the above would have been a good improvement to our system.
The below would have required extra money, but would have been nice:
*Rutgers connection allowing increased flexibility.
*In the mid 1980's, instead of even beginning to fix the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge, replace the bridge tracks with a tunnel. (although if the money that was poured into the bridge was used towards a tunnel, we would have already a large chunk of the money needed for a tunnel).
As for the first pointd mentioned, those could quite possibly been done, if money was spent differently.
-Express track on Jamaica could have been done in 1918 (most of the other Dual Contract els (except Livonia) came built originally with center tracks. Even the rebuilt portions of the Fulton el had three tracks. The one line where it is really needed is the one that doesn't have it.
-The more needed 2nd Ave subway could have been built with the funds used for the redundant Fulton and Concourse subways.
Was this the Bulletin Editor's pet name for MTA, or did everyone refer to MTA as Big "M"?
TRANSIT for NYCTA
SURFACE for Mabstoa
STATEN ISLAND for SIRTOA
LONG ISLAND for LIRR
CENTRAL for PC/CR Harlem and Hudson LIne
NEW HAVEN for PC/CR NEW HAVEN LINE
SUBURBAN for MSBA
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I
That leaves 9536-7 and 9542-3. Both pairs were on the road this evening.
Is it a matter of weeks before NYC finally has a 100% stainless steel subway fleet (Brightliners included in that definition)?
Can there be a chance that the rest of the cars will become work units?
Ps is the reminded of Te WF are singles or pairs?
Thanks !
The experiment was judged a "success", but nothing ever came of it. The bus was stripped of its Hy-Rail equipment and ended its days as an ordinary fishbowl.
Nah... that was back in the 60s and 70s (even the 80s?) but now a days, they put you on the treadmill even before you leave the hospital. Stays are shorter, and exercise is *good* for you and your heart. Much of the 'repair' work is handled by medications. They generally *want* you to return to your 'normal activities'.
This being said: pain and discomfort is always greater at night: you have no other distractions and every little ache or discomfort is magnified a hundred fold. So you are a wake with a little discomfort, and then your mind wanders and you cannot get any rest.
It may be better to get up and post until you are tired. Sometimes it is easier to get some rest in the day time with the ordinary noises and distractions of the household to mask some of the discomforts that kept you awake at night.
Good sleep hygine frequently suggests that you not be in your bed if you are not sleeping (or performing horizontal excercises that require a bed) but that you get up and read or something until you are sleepy again. Sleep comes in cycles, of deep and shallow sleep: cyycles of about two hours. When we are younger we sleep through these cycles because the threshold of wakefulness is well above the period of shallow sleep. As we age, our threshold of wakefullness falls until we are awakened during our periods of shallow sleep. Some people will say that they were awake all night, when in fact their deep sleep was in fact uninterupted (and therefore they really are rested) and were only awake during the 'shallow sleep' when rest does not occur anyway. This is why us old men can get up and go potty in the midle of the night without loosing any sleep or rest.
So, if you cannot sleep, then by all means, make some posts here on Subtalk, and then go back to sleep a little later.
Elias, RN
Some are easy some are not so easy.
1 What two stations have a curved platform?
2. What two stations have twin train halls?
3. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design? (‘waffle’) How many coffers are in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
4. What two stations have twin platforms with three tracks?
5. Name all five junctions?
6. How many escalators are in Rosslyn (C05)?
7. How many coffers are in the length of a subway station?
8. What is the deepest subway station where the platform are reached by escalators?
9 How many flashing lights are in the edge of the platform? (if you know the answer to 7 you can calculate this one).
10 What is the maximum length of a train?
11 What are the three aspects that can be displayed by an interlocking signal?
12. How many coffers are in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive)?
13 What is the different in the elevation between ends of the platform of a typical subway station. (I would guess no one here know this one)?
14 How many transfer station cross a 90 degrees?
15 What station has the widest island platform?
16 What station has the widest twin platforms?
Answers posted Sunday evening.
John
West Falls Church and National Airport
5. Name all five junctions?
Rosslyn, L'Enfant, Stadium Armoury, Pentagon and King St.
8. What is the deepest subway station where the platform are reached by escalators?
Used to be Wheaton, but now might be Glennmont
11 What are the three aspects that can be displayed by an interlocking signal?
STOP, CLEAR, DIVERGING.
14 How many transfer station cross a 90 degrees?
3
2. What two stations have twin train halls? Forest Glen and Wheaton
3. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design? (‘waffle’) How many coffers are in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive). This one I don't know...
4. What two stations have twin platforms with three tracks? West Falls Church and National Airport
5. Name all five junctions? D&G, C&L, C&J, C&H, and F&L
6. How many escalators are in Rosslyn (C05)? 7
7. How many coffers are in the length of a subway station? Don't know
8. What is the deepest subway station where the platform are reached by escalators? Wheaton
9 How many flashing lights are in the edge of the platform? (if you know the answer to 7 you can calculate this one). Don't know
10 What is the maximum length of a train? 600 feet/8 cars
11 What are the three aspects that can be displayed by an interlocking signal? Lunar, flashing lunar, red over red
12. How many coffers are in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive)? Estimating 55
13 What is the different in the elevation between ends of the platform of a typical subway station. (I would guess no one here know this one)? I would hope 0 :-)
14 How many transfer station cross a 90 degrees? 3
15 What station has the widest island platform? Farragut North
16 What station has the widest twin platforms? Metro Center
Don't you live in DC? Can't you just go and look?
Let me rephrase the following questions so that they may be clearer.
6. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design. (‘waffle’) How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
7. How many rows of coffers are in the length of a subway station.
12. How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
6. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design. (‘waffle’) How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
7. How many rows of coffers are in the length of a subway station.
12. How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
I'm a little ashamed at the fact that I don't have a clue regarding some of the questions---but here goes--Oren, I hope you had better luck...
1) Brookland & Silver Spring (Thanks Oren for confirming that one last week)
2) Forest Glen & Wheaton
3) 24?
4) W Falls Church & National Airport (I refuse to call it Ronald Reagon Washington National Airport--I take offense at the way the feds tried to Black-Mail what the citizens of Arlington County wanted)
5) L & F, D & G, C & H, C & L, c & J
6) 5
7) Not a clue
8) Wheaton
9) 60?
10) 8 cars
11) dunno
12)
13) Isn't this the same question as #3?
14) 4--Mertro Ctr, Gallery Pl, L'enfent Plaza, Ft. Totten
15) Farragut North
16) Metro Center or Gallery Place--I'm not sure which
3. You are very close. 24 is the number of coffers in one row of coffers in the upper level of L'enfent Plaza (F03). This will aide in correctly answering one of the questions.
John
I only use the name of the station that was affixed to it when it originally opened, regardless of any reason political or otherwise for modifying the station name.
John
U Street (E03)Columbia Heights (E04).
John
Mark
like I said in post Re: WMATA metrorail quiz (477283) I only use the name of the station that was affixed to it when it originally opened, regardless of any reason political or otherwise for modifying the station name.
As to Marks rant about attaching Ronald Reagon to National Airport I have no trouble with that and I believe it to be proper. But that does not change the fact that I will only refer the metroril station at Ronald Reagon Washington National Airport as "National Airport (C10)".
John
Assuming that railroad design is the same as highway design (which, for the most part, it is). The minimum slope is probably around 0.3% (AASHTO recommends a minimum highway slope of 0.3%). Knowing that the platform the 600 ft, the elevation differnace is around 1.8 feet
Your are very close.
John
Answers
1 What two stations have a curved platform?
Brookland (B05) Silver Spring (B08)
2. What two stations have twin train halls
Forest Glen (B09) Wheaton (B10)
3. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design. (‘waffle’) How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive). Note rephrased questions.
Each row has 22 coffers
4. What two stations have twin platforms with three tracks.
National Airport (C10) West Falls Church (K06)
5. Name all five junctions
Rosslyn C and K (C05), Pentagon C and L (C07), King Street C and J (C97), Stadium-Armory D and G (D97), L'Enfant Plaza F and L (F03).
6. How many escalators are in Roslyn (C05)
8, 4 from surface to upper level platform and 4 from upper level platform to lower level platform.
7. How many rows of coffers are in the length of a subway station. Note rephrased questions.
72. WMATA stations are 600’ long each row of coffers is 8’ 4" wide from vertical revile to vertical revile. Divide 600’ by 8’ 4" and the sum is 72 rows of coffers.
8. What is the deepest subway station where the platform are reached by escalators.
Wheaton (B10)
9. How many flashing lights are in the edge of the platform. (if you know the answer to 7 you can calculate this one).
144. The length of each platform granite edge unit is the same width as 1 row of coffers. Each granite edge unit has 2 flashing lights. 72 times 2 equals 144.
10 What is the maximum length of a train.
8 cars. 600’ station platform length divided by 75’ car length equals 8 cars.
11 What are the three aspects that can be displayed by an interlocking signal.
Red over Red STOP, Lunar CLEAR, flashing Lunar CLEAR DERVERGING ROUTE.
12 How many coffers are in one row of coffers in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive). Note rephrased questions.
Each row has 4 coffers.
13 What is the different in the elevation between ends of the platform of a typical subway station. (I would guess no one here know this one).
2’ 2 3/64" Each Station either in subway or on elevated is pitched at 0.35% for drainage. This is a difference of 2.17’ or roughly 2’ 2 3/64" over the 600’ length of the station platform.
14 How many transfer station cross a 90 degrees.
3, Metro Center (A01, C01), Gallery Place (B01, F01) L'Enfant Plaza (F03, D03) technically Fort Totten (B06, E06) does not cross at exactly 90 degrees. So if your answer was 4 I would call it correct because this transfer station is in the same class as the others.
15 What station has the widest island platform
Metro Center 38' 1/2" lower level Blue Orange (C01).
16 What station has the widest twin platforms
L'Enfant Plaza 21' 0" upper level Green Yellow (F03).
You can get rough measurements of platform widths without using a tape measure by counting the tiles. The big tiles plus grout are 8 1/4". The small tiles plus grout are 5 3/4 Add 18’ for the granite edge units and 24’ for the bumpy tiles in station that have them. Note the measurements used here were taken from construction drawings.
John
Good Quiz John, I'll have to put one together equally challenging.
mark
1. What two stations have a curved platform?
Silver Spring HAS to be one, not too sure of the other... Naylor Road?
2. What two stations have twin train halls?
What the hell is a "train hall"? I guess Wheaton and Forest Glen, but I'm not sure...
3. In typical subway stations with the pre 1980s design? (?waffle?) How many coffers are in the arch. (No fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive).
I don't live in DC, nor do I cheat, so I can't answer this... now, anyways.
4. What two stations have twin platforms with three tracks?
West Falls Church and National Airport.
5. Name all five junctions?
By WMATA terms or stations... if by stations, Rosslyn, Stadium-Armory, L'Enfant Plaza, King Street, and Pentagon.
6. How many escalators are in Rosslyn (C05)?
Can't say... never got off a Blue or Orange Train there.
7. How many coffers are in the length of a subway station?
Entirely too many. Just kidding. I've NO idea.
8. What is the deepest subway station where the platform are reached by escalators?
Dupont Circle or Wheaton.
9 How many flashing lights are in the edge of the platform? (if you know the answer to 7 you can calculate this one).
56?
10 What is the maximum length of a train?
8 cars, rarely seen, and NO idea how long a DC subway car is.
11 What are the three aspects that can be displayed by an interlocking signal?
This wouldn't require me to know DC interlock signals, would it? If so, or even if not, I'm stumped...
12. How many coffers are in the arch of an (Arch I) station. (once again no fair looking in Mr. Pirmann photo archive)?
Uh... which is Arch I, II, and III again? I'm confused, and I still wouldn't know.
13 What is the different in the elevation between ends of the platform of a typical subway station. (I would guess no one here know this one)?
No idea, but probably just enough for easy wheelchair access.
14 How many transfer station cross a 90 degrees?
3: Metro Center, Gallery Place-Chinatown, and L'Enfant Plaza.
15 What station has the widest island platform?
If split-levels count, Rosslyn and Pentagon are tied. If not, then Blue/Orange Metro Center Station.
16 What station has the widest twin platforms?
I'd gues Farragut North, as it was the first TERMINAL with twin sides.
John
-Stef
Or: visit the Queens Borough President's (Helen Marshall)office, or look up the Borough Prez' website, and see if there are any announcements there. The plans might be available through her staff. Call and find out.
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/dyn-content.html?item_id=19856&ticket=00007689081049972421
All courtesy of SubwayWebNews, which provided the link. I have just one question... Does anyone know if the ADA access is linked only to the IND part of the station, or is the MTA somehow going to connect wheelchairs to the IRT part of the complex?
Look at the Borough Hall complex. The Seventh Avenue Line platforms are fully accessible, the Lexington Avenue Line platforms are partly accessible (northbound only, via passageway from the Seventh Avenue Line's northbound platform), and the Broadway/Nassau Street Lines platform (Court Street) is not accessible at all. The elevators were installed post-ADA.
David
Do you know where the elevators are going to go at Times Square IRT? The obvious place is the 41st Street mezzanine, but the floor there appears quite permanent.
Vollmer Associates, the designers, do a lot of transit work. Maybe a design is available on their website...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
or link here
Press Release
CONSTRUCTION UNDER WAY ON SECOND PHASE OF REHABILITATION OF QUEENS SUBWAY STATIONS (4/1/03)
NEW YORK, NY - Construction is under way on the second and final phase of the rehabilitation of the two-station subway complex consisting of the Roosevelt Avenue station on the IND line and the 74th Street station on the IRT line in Queens, NY.
The multimillion-dollar project, which also includes the construction of a new New York City Department of Transportation/Triboro Bus Intermodal Facility, was designed by Vollmer Associates, along with subconsultants that included Fox & Fowle Associates and Cosentini Associates. The construction contractor is Slattery Skanska / Gottlieb Skanska JV.
The cornerstone of the project will be a 50-foot-high steel and glass building, reminiscent of stations from an earlier era, which will serve as the new entrance to both the IND and IRT stations. The building will feature a façade consisting primarily of solid glass blocks and a painted steel curtain wall system with clear laminated patterned glass in fixed awning windows.
New wide stairways and four new elevators will permit easy access as well as comply with all ADA requirements. The elevator inside the building is glass-enclosed and will provide access to both the IRT and IND. The new building also will house retail facilities, New York City Transit equipment and personnel, and bus station facilities and a balcony which overlooks to the entire atrium-like space of the building interior.
The bus station will have four lanes enclosed in a space-frame roof and is directly linked to the rail station building. As part of the trend toward "green engineering," the roof will support a photovoltaic panel array which will supplement electrical power to the facility.
The elevated IRT station will have its mezzanine expanded and its vertical circulation points widened to alleviate current crowding. Additionally, it will be outfitted with new canopies and windscreens, and additional, widened stairways will alleviate crowded conditions. The below-grade IND station will have corridors expanded, get new floor finishes, lighting, wall treatments, and safety features. There will be eight to 10 retail shops on the reconfigured mezzanine. Stairways to the platforms will be rehabilitated and one additional stair will be added. Elevators will connect the mezzanine to the platform level and provide full ADA compliance for the facility.
The project is scheduled for completion by 2006 at an estimated construction cost in excess of $80 million.
Vollmer Associates, consistently ranked among the nation's top engineering design firms, provides comprehensive engineering, architecture, planning, landscape architecture and survey services from 14 offices throughout the northeast, including New York, NY. A multidisciplinary staff of over 500 professionals performs assignments for both public and private clients ranging from property surveys and site designs for commercial developments, parks and municipal facilities to engineering design and construction supervision for complex highway projects. Vollmer's in-house staff of civil and structural engineers, transportation and traffic planners, landscape architects and urban planners, surveyors and construction inspectors enables the firm to take a job from conceptual planning through completion.
At this rate, I wonder what remaining stations will combine both high importance and a crummy condition in 2010? Jay Steet would have to lead the list.
What about Columbus Circle?
Vollmer Associates does a lot of transit and street beautification work. Good firm (and also politically connected).
How so?
#3 West End Jeff
There are serious problems which merit investigation. It is unfortunate that the security chief had to soil his own uniform while pursuing them.
But my disdain for politics, politicians, and the bloodsuckers they appoint to "political subdivisions" such as the MTA comes from almost 13 years of experience in state government. NO surprise. NONE.
#3 West End Jeff
WHY? The trash can was certainly not full. What would it take to have New Yorkers have some pride in a clean system? I hope it's not these people who contribute to the high cost of cleaning the system who are the first to scream they can't afford a fare increase.
Something tells me these people are the first to complain about fare increases.
I have to say, however, that tossing a soda can onto the trackbed or a candy wrapper onto the platform is nothing compared to what I once saw - a couple people eating (greasy) fried chicken on a D train and throwing the bones onto the floor!
Maybe an in the system ad campaign reminding riders how much is spent on trash removal?
Robert
(That won't help. Peope are people)
Assholes are assholes, so it doesn't help to lecture them. Those who require a lecture are the rest of us. We sit there and take it, and then blame the system.
I have chewed out youngsters in the subway four times in the past month. Once for holding doors back just for the fun of it. I yelled that they were going to burn out the doors, screwing everyone else, and how could they be so selfish. Once for whipping a basketball back and forth in a crowded car. I yelled that I hoped that when a ball got away and hit someone in the head they wouldn't say it was an accident, and hadn't anyone taught them to give a damn about someone other than themselves. Once for blocking doors in a train packed due to a delay. When a couple of people did make it off the train, I pointed at the two selfish jerks on each side of the door -- who had just allowed one person to get by at a time -- and said "that's on you, you selfish, nasty people." And once for littering.
I also point out to my children when they do something selfish that hurts others. And you know what -- after nine and 11 years it almost never happens.
The campaign should be aimed at the victims, not the perpetrators. They should be encouraged to curse out those who do these things, and trail them until a cop comes in view (not to long these days) and point them out. If that happens enough, it will stop.
HUH?!?!?!?! But it's word from our government so it MUST be approved. :(
Again, the police aren't everywhere, and we can't throw everyone in jail for every offense. There are less drastic means of social control, but they have been abandoned. Perhaps people would be less likely to be selfish if they at least faced being identified as selfish, and criticized for their selfishness.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/subwaysun/subwaysun.html
While it's certainly convenient that one can eat and drink on the New York subway, I've come to the conclusion that it's time to change, and follow DC's lead in banning these practices. Littering has simply gotten too bad.
At 0315 on Friday at Bedford Park Blvd. I saw a woman throw a bananna peel onto the trackbed via the gap between a laid up train and the platform edge. Not 5 feet from a trash can. I called her a damn slob right to her face.
Peace,
ANDEE
What a stupid ho. At least she didn't throw it on the platform.
Assholes.
RATS get thirsty too, Mr. Todd!
or point to: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-centerline12apr12,1,3939153.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dcalifornia
About a year ago this project got a lot of press. I do not know whether the present proposal is different, but the old one was roundly criticized and shelved because the line meandered thorough so many different towns for political reasons that it could not be considered "rapid" transit by any stretch of the imagination.
Tom
I hate to say it, but I feel it IS a folly. The routing is designed just like they had the original bus system designed -- it was more like a sightseeing tour than transit. (Bus routes used to take all sorts of detours just to cater to the whims of one or two people...they were "straight-lined" a couple years ago, which gave some improvement to travel times, but little by little, they are going back to their old methods.
The rail line they had planned, from Fullerton to Irvine via Disneyland, Anaheim Stadium, the agency headquarters (of course, so they could look down and pat themselves on the shoulder for the trains), downtown Santa Ana/County Civic Center, South Coast Plaza shopping center, University of California Irvine, and then to the Irvine Amtrak/Metrolink station area was....a sightseeing tour.
To go from end-to-end in one's private automobile can be done in approximately 30 minutes (Fullerton to Irvine) if no traffic. If using the present OCTA bus system, it can take about 75 minutes (one of the bus routes is a freeway express -- but it goes further than, with no stops at, the Irvine Transportation Center where the rail line would go....) And with the rail route the way it was planned (thanks to all the twists and turns and trying to make it hit every point of interest in the county)....90 minutes!!!!
They cut the rail line down as Fullerton, Anaheim and Santa Ana had told them where to stick it (not the routing....) So they cut it to running between Irvine and Costa Mesa (South Coast Plaza) through, of all places, Irvine. Irvine is mostly upper middle class yuppie territory....who want NOTHING to do with public transit. (I drive one of the agency's bus routes through Irvine, and believe me, it's mostly empty bus the whole day -- first morning trip is busy bringing all the maids to the yuppies in Irvine, but that's it.)
Don't neglect the IMPORTANT.
A Guess !
-Stef
(daoh!)
Or link here
In government, never assume the problem is corruption when incompetence is an equally reasonable explanation.
Lemme put it another way - "Human Relations" takes care of those who are malfeasant, or run afoul of "***APPEARANCE*** of impropiety under "Ethics law" ... those who remain are WILLFUL in their abrogations or the HR trolls would have dismissed them in a nanosecond.
Before Unca Selkirk gets accused of "making things up" here with respect to how "malfeasance in performance of the people's duties" (does that sound KREMLINSKI or WHAT?) is prosecuted by the "HR" department, anyone in government wanna chide in with what happens to docudroids accused of "ethics" violations as compared to the deputy junior adminiswigs? I don't wanna stand alone here without another "statie" at my back. :)
I got hired up by a political appointee of "Padre Mario" who was actually as honest as the day was long, but like dummycraps of his time, he was shuffled off into a state agency as "Chairman" to get him out of the way. The basis on which politics dictates political appointments to agencies ranging from Dorm Authory to MTA is based this way - political favors (you lost the election, here - have a JOB to "you raised the most cash in your county for politician "X") for people with connections, even if they can't sheet and wind their wristwatch at the same time ... there is no burden of "expertise" to be appointed as an "expert" with a political agency. In fact, the :ESS you know, the more likely that duty will be what you're appointed to. "Experts" and "consultants" will TELL you what to do and who to sign off on.
Anyhoo, I got hired up by the state under the SAME circumstances as most of the corrupt, a "personal services" contract as a "consultant." My job was to build a television network known as "NY-SCAN" which would have been (and *WAS*) a state version of C-SPAN ... I got hired up to buy, install, and operate and repair the EQUIPMENT that did this task for 8 years. Straight up and up all the way, in fact I managed to circumvent some of the corruption in YS' OGS purchasing practices, INSISTING on purchasing equipment that FUNCTIONED since my personal reputation rode on what was built and placed into service. Had MANY a fight with "special interests" who would have sold us SHITE.
I won the battles, but ONLY because I had an honest former politician as Chairman of the agency (William B. Finneran, in case any Westchester residents remember and honor their former Assemblyman from Greenburgh). He backed me up in my protests against shite and we built a WORKING facility that did VERY well until it was killed by Joe Bruno because the boring-a$$ republicans rarely did any performances before our cameras when they short-sheeted us on money and staff to do "photo ops" as opposed to covering hearings and legislative action which allowed a crew to sit there for 8+ hours and fill a TV schedule as opposed to following politicos around for a 5 second sound bite. But the channel got killed by Bruno because we didn't. COULDN'T ... :(
When the agency got killed by Paturkey, owing to my electronics, communications, internet, surveillance countermeasures, telephone, cable, fiber optic, and cable television technology background, but MORE IMPORTANTLY SO my own, and my wife Nancy's TELEVISION CAMERA APEEARANCE in front of the local and NYC television reporters, with our saying "as far as we're concerned republicans eat their young" and "I wonder how many other laid off employees will be piled up in the elevator shaft before MINE hits" after a number of 12-9's from other employees laid off by Paturkey saved the jobs of myself and 60 other people in the "Cable Commission" by "street theater" political tactics. I spent most of my life in political journalism and it worked. For a short while. Paturkey got his revenge. I'm only going into this in the interest of "full disclosure" ...
Yeah, people get honked off when I get political, but I do it *SOLELY* in the interest of EDUCATION for everyone here in WHY things don't make sense in the MTA and other political subdivisions. What everyone thinks is LOGICAL doesn't apply in politics, or the droids appointed by them. Once again, sorry if I offend people with the politics, I'm only speaking of all that from the SAME (even more years) level of experience with which I discuss Arnines ... been there, done that, burned the T-shirt.
Only difference between borrow and spend republicans and tax and spend democrats is at LEAST the democrats spread it AROUND a little bit. For GOP, it all ends up in Halliburton or Bechtel. Ain't NOTHING for the hourly worker out of the GOP. I'm an "ontapanoor" and they're screwing *US* too!
Maybe that's why I come off as a "liberal" ... sadly, I live upstate and there AIN'T no "commies" up here ... they die each winter while waiting for free oil ... nothing says "conservative VALUES" like upstaters and all we've got is a damned Shrub. Agggh.
But my dissertations on politics are based on reality - I've lived STATE government as surely as I've piloted Arnines. At least Arnines you could RECKON with. With politics, you MUST have a cigar (preferably a republican-issued Cuban Cohiba) so you can tell which way the wind is blowing. Since you'll be blowing that after lunch, or be furloughed.
"Budget crises" are th PERFECT time to get rid of "disloyals" rather than "incometents, incontinents and medicals" as they used to say at the PSC ... "cripples are the first to go" under THIS administration. Once again forgive me my rantings, but such is the mentality of the Paturkey administration. MTA corruption. Gack. Ever hear of the "Business Council, Joe Walsh and Joe Bruno?" Nah, nevermind. It's that grade 6 that stole your wallet. :(
In case you hadn't heard the Iraqi National Museum was completely looted over the last few weeks. The Museum was an important repository of artifacts from Humanity's first known civilization dating as far back as 5000 BC, notable for such mundane contrabutions as writing, reading and a code of laws. The value and vulnerability of this museum was known far in advance and got a lot of press on the majour news outlets. It was also located downtown right near where that statue got pulled down. The loss of the museum and its priceless contents are an irreperable blow to both the Iraqui people and the global human civilization in general. The fact that this was allowed to happen shows either really really REALLY poor planning on behalf of Cent.com or willful negligence on the part of the Adminitration* and its war council. The disturbing part is that this disaster probably could have been prevented by stationing a squad of guys and a Bradly around the museum.
I don't know about the W regime, but I consider irreplacable items from the dawn of Human civilization to be a key mission objective. Failure to complete this key mission objective gives us, in the words of Field Marshall Montgomery "a 95 percent victory". Think about that for a second, do you know what a 95% victory is? The Red Sox in 1986 had a 95% victory. There's a term for a 95% victory, LOSS.
*A more alarmist person might think that Born Again Bush might be trying to eliminate any physical evidence that contradicts the Biblical (tm) interperation of events.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/12/international/worldspecial/12CND-BAGH.html
We will no doubt probably see many of the articles show up at Chrystie's or even eBay in the decades to come. :0)
Seriously, though, there will come a time when a reconstituted govt will try to return them to their rightful places.
But consider this: how many people got to see them under Saddam's regime?
Yeah, but that can't occur until January, 2005. :-)
Tom
I'm sure some of it will also be recovered. It hasn't gone very far.
So it's our duty as PATRIOTIC railfans to break homeballs we like off their posts, remove rollsigns we adore and loot the turnstiles ... FOR FREEDOM! As Americans, we DESERVE all the accoutrements of anything we desire but can't afford and take it home. The current administration SAYS that this is GOOD. Me, I'm going to knock over a bank later, then hit an oil terminal to celebrate "freedom" ...
And an SD60 on my lawn would be nice too. I go get! :)
Ain't that just amazing though? EVERYTHING we were taught in school out the window, LOOTING IS A GOOD THING! Sure wish I'd gotten ME some. Then again, speaks VOLUMES about the "moral majority" in charge now. :(
President Willie only got some nookie. These guys encourage CRIME! Gotta admire the holier-than thou folks, I guess. Still can't believe that Rummy actually SAID that, but I heard it with my own ears and here we are just the same. :(
Crime is in the eye of the beholder.
Rumsfeld made a MONKEY of the "party of tax cuts/God" by saying "anarchy, robbery, rioting and theft is Okey-dokey becauwe "they're poor and they've been repressed and they're only blowing off steam because they've found freedom ... What would America do if the same were to happen on 117 and Madison? Hmmmmm. Double-standard, anyone?
Were any FETUSES harmed? Sorry, I have a LOW tolerance for double standards of "morality" ...
Well I never met a homeball I liked. But I can break one off if you like. Give me a break handle & reverser and I'll hit it too (literally).
-Robert King
-Robert King
Trinkets, man. Their importance pales in comparison to the lives which will be saved now that the Butcher of Baghdad is nothing more than an historical footnote.
Try A Slant ! LOL MORE FUN !
And Why ?
So i deserve the handles !
Slant 40 for me !
I DONT CARE. GIVE.. ME.. HANDLES..
This isn't even about the justness of this war, its about the execution. Protecting the museum should have been a top priority and could have been achieved by squad in a Bradly, but the Keystone Cop civillians in charge over at the Pentagon clearly don't see the big picture.
It is the EXACT same gang who in 1991 won the battle but lost the war and they are going to do it again. Garbage in garbage out. In 2016 when we're fighting Gulf War III and Jeb Bush is in command everyone will be talking about what we should have done way back in 03. I was always taught that its ok to make mistakes as long as we don't repeat them. It seems like most of the voters in this country spent that school day drinking.
Well, since Rumsie says this is "venting" or "ebullience", the next time the lights go out in Queens I'm going to EBULLIENTLY get me a wide screen TV and VENT me up a couple of PlayStations. The NYPD should have no problem with this, according to Rumsfeld's logic...
The purpose of the Electoral College is the same as that of the Senate: to make sure that the small states are represented, otherwise the needs of big states will always take precedent.
Not that GORE wasn't just as BIG an idiot as what the SUPREMES elected ... either WAY we were just so ... screwed ... :(
If it's ANY comfort though, those who say it was KNOWN ("Bush KNEW") *REFUSE* to put their John Hancock on the "PROFF" ... and if they WON'T sign the documents, then it *MUST* be cosidered as "unoffical" and therefore NOT FACT. SOME of us "journalists" have scruples and will NOT make claims that we cannot PROVE. Joe Bruno's a corrupt, kinky bondage and dominance phuck. *THAT* I have 3+ witnesses to which would be willing to come forward with. As to WTC, none exist. Therefore, it MUST be treated as "X-Files" until anything different shows up in the Public Library ...
O/T even more, but has anyone else noticed that none of the Supreme Court Justices have even spoken about stepping down? Before the election/appointment of 2001, we were bombarded by the media outlets saying how the next president might have the oppertunity to select as many as 3 supreme court justices, and that the older conservatives were pulling for Bush, cause he'd put super-conservatives in their place.
Now in 2003 I have yet to hear about a single conservative stepping down. You'd think that with a conservative president, conservative House, and mostly conservative senate, it would be the perfect time for some of the older Conservatives to step down to be replaced with younger, longer lived conservatives. Could there be some kind of distrust of dubya, or his administration that leads the conservative justices to want to remain on the court? I know there has to be some kind of interesting story behind this.
Any thoughts?
Ugh. Keep your historical rantings to yourself. The facts remain plain: GWB won the election because he had more than the required number of electoral votes. The Supreme Court did nothing to put George Bush in office. It refused to do anything to stop it, though.
Given that this current regime got off on such a bad footing, trouncing all over law and stuff, perhaps it's no coincidence that they'd also be the ones to revoke constitutional rights, basically declare the first war the US has started in 100 years, and just generally make a mockery of the constitution and all that we have held dear for the past 200 or so years. The 21st century isn't shaping up to be such a great time, what with rampant Nationalism, the loss of the only stabilizing force most knee-jerk reactionaries understand, Mutually Assured Destruction, and the breeding of terrorism by the House of Republicans, err Representatives, during the 1990s and Clinton Administration.
Perhaps we should have a prefix for O/T thread on politics, how about:
*Politico*
or we could warn off the people of the wrong party with left and right additions:
*<- Politico* for threads by Jersey Mike, Selkirk, John J Blair, Myself and any other pinko lefties out there.
and
*Politico ->* For threads by ArcingCatenary, SeaBeach Fred, or any other knee jerk reactionary conservative republicans out there.
Just insert like so:
*<-Politico* Look what dubya's up to now!
or
*Politico ->* God Bless the USA!
Conservatives of the old guard ALSO believe that if you don't have a surplus in the bank to pay your expenses, BORROWING money doesn't solve CHIT ... if you're in debt, you TIGHTEN YOUR BELT and PAY IT OFF. If the family has to kick in MORE to pay it off (taxes) then that's part of the ugly reality - PAY IT OFF and GET OUT OF DEBT!
The reaon I think that republicans are S$$HOLES is because they're violated EVERY FUNDAMENTAL TENET of their EXISTENCE. While Rush whines and pythes and moans, the current "republican regime" is a bunch of whiny-a$$ed liberals ... let SOMEONE ELSE PAY ... *REAL* republicans *PAY* the debts they incur and *DON'T* stick their children with it. It's all about "personal responsibility" and *TRUE* republicans don't play the Shrub BS ... we *PAY IT FORWARD* ... then there's Paturkeys, Shrubs, and other THIEVES ...
Please don't get the two confused, thank you!\
Current mainstream "republicans" are called "a$$holes" who have RUINED the concept ... hosers, posers, and whores. :(
What is it with you guys? Must your personal convictions be constantly displayed? For whatever side you're taking. Ain't this a rountable for discussions of mass/rapid/rail transportation issues? This "we" against "them" bent is disturbing. It just adds noise to the data. I don't think none of us need to be political here. What's the point? Why get people angry for nothing? And the jabs at each other are sickening. No kiddin', it seems like everyones' edgy here lately.
And that ain't fair, IMO, about the "..don't have to read it.." bit. I don't come on this board to get educated about ANYBODYS' politics and I sure don't want to edamacate anyone on my POV, outside of trains. (I hate writing this freekin' O.T. message too!) But I do try to read most postings. It's like, yeah, you got the right to write what you feel is right. Since it's outside of the context of the environment however, it comes across as boring and even silly. And I've even K.F,'d one poster, because I got sick of the "clever" writing style. First time I've ever done that. But that's it. And I didn't go yappin' on about it either. Others could take a lesson in that.
Respectfully, I suggest you check your fact, rather than accepting the Spin of the "Ministry of Information" ... reporters chuckled at THAT dude, we have Ari Fliesher. FACT is Gore won the election in Florida, but the Supremes elected the resident. DEAL with it as you wish, as far as *I* am concerned, Shrub and Gore were EQUAL opportunity IDIOTS. I *wish* we'd elected ANYBODY ELSE ...
Given a choice though, the Dummycraps would have included *US* in the "spreading of the spoils" so I would have leaned towards Gore just to pay my mortgage. :(
Can't BELIEVE our REGIOME condones CRIME, but there it was. Then again, I remember when us conservatives RECOILED at "The NEW WORLD ORDER" (Hitler's FAVORITE doctrine, repeated by the holy trinity - "BUSH" the father, "bush" the son, and "Cheney," the holy ghost.
But hey, LOOTING IS GOOD! Republicans SAY so ... what are you wasting your time on SUBTALK for? Go break into some homes and stores! It's FREE and after all, it's an act of PATRIOTISM! Better than that, expressing *FREEDOM!* NOTHING says freedom like Dolby 5.1 and a plasma Teevee!
GEEZ!!! :(
How are we to say that we are, in fact, a nation of laws if we encourage lawlessness elsewhere?
I just can't BELIEVE what our administration is telling us is the conduct of "FREEDOM" ... GEEZ. Whatever happened to the "born-again" "do unto others and run like hell?" But yeah, grab an R68 along with that free mule and more sugar. You'll get a check from Unca Sammy for the dividends. :(
As a TRUE conservative, it embarasses all HELL outta me that our "regime" would CONDONE such. We deserve at LEAST as much as the Irawis for paying for this war, homeland security and GOP deficits. And where's our GOT-DAMNED Second Avenue subway by the way? Not like we haven't already PAID for it. :(
BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS
collected by BuzzFlash Reader R. Miller
"President Bush said this Iraq situation looks like 'the rerun
of a bad movie.' Well sure, there's a Bush in the White House,
the economy's going to hell, we're going to war over oil. I've
seen this movie, haven't I?" -- Jay Leno
"President Bush has said that he does not need approval
from the UN to wage war, and I'm thinking, well, hell, he
didn't need the approval of the American voters to become
president, either." -- David Letterman
"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets
rid of Saddam Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with
food, medicine, supplies, housing, education - anything
that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally comes up with
a domestic agenda - and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring
that here if it works out." -- Jay Leno
"President Bush announced tonight that he believes in
democracy and that democracy can exist in Iraq. They can
have a strong economy, they can have a good health care
plan, and they can have a free and fair voting. Iraq? We can't
even get this in Florida." -- Jay Leno
"Democrats were quick to point out that President Bush's
budget creates a 1 trillion dollar deficit. The White House
quickly responded with 'Hey, look over there, it's Saddam
Hussein.'" -- Craig Kilborn
"We have it. The smoking gun. The evidence. The potential
weapon of mass destruction we have been looking for as our
pretext of invading Iraq. There's just one problem -- it's in
North Korea." -- Jon Stewart
"War continues in Iraq. They're calling it Operation Iraqi
Freedom. They were going to call it Operation Iraqi Liberation
until they realized that spells 'OIL.'" -- Jay Leno
"CNN said that after the war, there is a plan to divide Iraq into
three parts ... regular, premium and unleaded." -- Jay Leno
"Iraq began destroying those missiles they don't have over the
weekend. See, President Bush may be the smartest military
president in history. First, he gets Iraq to destroy all of their
own weapons. Then he declares war." -- Jay Leno
I just don’t like politicks in general!
And yes I do know that politicks can screw you badly!
I know the feeling Something you want to do once and that it !
No, it is politics that KEPT the token.
If practical issues alone decided things, the token would have been eliminated in 1979.
Americans deserve a little freedom too, after all of ours have been eroded lately because FBI, INS and CIA screwed up after budget cuts for tax cuts. If those agencies had been FUNDED by the republican congress, we might STILL have a WTC, friendly relations with other countries and no people on the list of "DO NOT LET THESE BASTARDS IN THE COUNTRY" having flown planes into WTC. But hey, Rush won't tell anyone this. Nope - it's all CLINTON'S fault. A$$holes.
KEV That is Enough !
Thanks Kev
I needed a laugh !
That's disgusting.
I stop ... I'm sorry, but I'm going to post it anyway. We WON the war, but just watch us lose the PEACE. I'd be a whole lot LESS angry if we had an economy, but alas, I'm NOT in the oil business. :(
Despite the media spin though, Al Qaeda had about as much regard for Unca Saddam as they did for the Shrub, so even now, despite the spinmeisters I *still* cannot correlate the connection, but so be it. Let's fast forward to reality - Arabian nations everywhere are EXTREMELY humiliated by Saddam's failure to put his "army" where his mouth was and frankly, with most of the world feeling *MIGHTY* vulnerable even after the "aw shocks" compared to what was promised, NOW would be the PERFECT opportunity for America to show the rest of the world, "don't SCREW with us, we've PROVEN what happens ... NOW we can show COMPASSION to the world, solve the Palestinian problem, solve North Korea, and now that you all know what we can DO to your if you screw with us, let's be friends and work this out."
NEVER has America been at such a crossroads of potential CHANGE, not even after defeating HITLER. Why is it then that I worry that we'll screw THIS up too? :(
There's a new Sheriff in town and his name NOT be Reggie Hammond.
Pure dribble, this isn't transit related in any way. And that is as far as I am going to read this thread.
For me, at work with no TV, and with news sites like cnn.com totally overloaded, Subtalk was my main source of information.
Don't blame the U.S. military, blame the savages who trashed the museum. Let's say that a contingent of troops were stationed around the museum and ended up firing upon some looters. Can you imagine the public relations nightmare?
The Geneva Convention and the customs of land warfare require an occupying power to maintain order.
Tom
I tossed together this idea, which you can see in the map below, of the SAS linking out with the Brooklyn/Queens Crosstown. There is very little construction involved here, on top of the existing SAS plans.
http://www.tranq.com/temp/subway/SAS-G_1.gif
The reason for the 'loop' in Manhattan, instead of heading right accross the river, is to The station location in Red Hook is generalized, as I don't k allow the trains to descend to river tunnel depth, and to avoid constructing new tunnels crossing old ones underwater. This would reduce cost and possibility of a catasrophic failure during construction.now the area very well. I have not put in any possible transfers in downtown Manhattan, or a new station, to keep costs down.
Bringing the G into Manhattan will boost G ridership, brining in new riders who currently avoid taking that line to work. It will increase the utility of the SAS line by making it more easily accessable by a greater population. It will GREATLY improve access to Red Hook. A clever switch at 9th St will also boost the re-routability and future expansion possibilities of the F line.
What do you all think?
There is very little interference with existing lines that building a tunnel further north would entail, and the SAS would already have to be very deep in lower Manhattan anyway to clear all of the lines that are there.
It is good for the (GG) train, but it would also be a big relief to brooklyn if it went south on the Culver as well. The (F) via Rutgers is every bit as bad as Sea Beach Fred says the Montague is.
(Not wanting to ride the Rutgers Local (aka (F) ) is the main reason why I walked the extra distance to take the (QB) train, as explained in another post elsewhere.)
Elias
My memory, and LarryRedbird's research seems to confirm, that the current 4-track bridge is the original 2-track bridge (rehabbed and made fixed) on the west, with a new bridge added to the east.
The 160's wont be arriving for some time now....
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
You dont got me to hang around here so you go for him !
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Nice big letters
W H Y A R E Y O U A T T A C K I N G CC LOCAL ???????????????????
is this better ? !
How neglected the lass must feel... :(
As old friend of mine whom an engineering professor would say “ once an idiot always an idiot “
CC you've been posting SO MUCH I've just become curious about the
lady you told us you were looking after (was it?) just before your
medical episode a few days past.. do hope she's well.
And about me cutting off the nonsense-- funny that's exactly what
the majority was saying to you (or was that Dave?)
LOL... too confusing.
Anyway, regards to the lady & peace out guyz.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=477861
the 110b are have not ahd a move since seprmber of 2002 ! exept when they were moved to CI in late Febuary for a Week for some reason and back to 207th !
Considering that the first ones haven't even been built yet, I don't think so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yep with a difrent front !
what were the car #'s on this supposed set?
i will get picks with in two weeks !
What about 8402???
David
BTW, u just called another subtalker a YUTZ. Follow your own advice.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And if Dave will kick me off for what ever reason Than let it Be !
If so im not surprised!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
PS You are staring to bitch like my psychology professor! LOL
And believe my psychology professor and my girlfriend bitch at the same level! LOL
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
That said, it is nearly impossible that a set of R-160s would be anywhere on the property. The contracts weren't signed very long ago, and it takes time to develop subcontracts for the various components, get the components made, get the car shells made, put the whole thing together, and ship it out to the operating agency (in this case, NYC Transit). It should also be mentioned (as I believe it was here a few days ago) that Alstom's finances are being looked at by the MTA because the company owes creditors billions of euros.
David
nope the first train set was built Kawasaki about 3 mounts ago as a modefied R143 !
the contracks was signed if im not mistacken some time in october of last year !
Basically the same as a schmuck, as far as I know.
So please except my apology!
buT as you can see i was right !
LOL
But you were wrong, and obviously sarcasm impaired.
i use KOI8
R7A 1575 was EXTENSIVELY modified. Yet it remained an R7A, and did not become an R10.
Oh, so that's where they have been hiding the R39's. And all this time I thought they have been storing them in 76th Street Station.....uh oh, THAT must be where they have been hiding the R160s!
As for the Slants, no decision has been made yet. If it's any consolation, they are looking for a barge that'll be able to handle 75 foot cars so maybe the slants will be around for another 20 year overhaul.
Thanks Vlad
Read the post. What company builds 20 cars before they win the contract? If each car costed $1,000,000 that would be a waste of $20million! No, TD was pulling your leg.
But i was right about the R160s test train !
Would alstom build 20 cars b4 it won the contract? Nope.
Would the TA EVER consider not scrapping the slants? nope.
You were (and still ARE wrong)
yep
do you know anything about the first set of R143s ??????
Would the TA EVER consider not scrapping the slants? nope.
Yep the are getting replased by R160s
Read this http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r160.html
you see my point now !
Would alstom build 20 cars b4 it won the contract? Nope
yep
do you know anything about the first set of R143s ??????
Kawasaki did not construct the First R-143 until it had won the contract.
Would the TA EVER consider not scrapping the slants? nope.
Yep the are getting replased by R160s
Read this http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r160.html
Train Dude said there was the possibility that the 75' cars would go first. Obviously a joke.
you see my point now !
Yes, that there are people out there looking to buy the brooklyn bridge.
alsots needs mone so they would go for the risk asl a the are owned by bombadier !
Train Dude said there was the possibility that the 75' cars would go first. Obviously a joke.
how would you know !
Ive been ridin the TA for years before i got my Subaru !
And i Have Frend In the TA inboth 207th and CI
This post was so dumb, that it was funny. I was literally rolling on the floor from laughter.
1. Why would a subsidiary of a company make a competing bid against it's parent?
2. Alstom has never built a NYC subway car, and they build 20 before they win a contract? Sounds like unsound fiscal practice.
3. alsots is not a company.
Train Dude said there was the possibility that the 75' cars would go first. Obviously a joke.
how would you know !
Ive been ridin the TA for years before i got my Subaru !
And i Have Frend In the TA inboth 207th and CI
4. I've been posting here for a while, and TD is good for this kind of stuff. That r162 post is kinda one of those 'sarcasm posts' too.
5. The 75' cars are in better shape than the slants. Why would the TA scrap any of their 75' cars and GOH the 40s cars?
6. Oh yeah. Ridin the TA makes you an expert.
7. Knowing security guards doesn't count.
8. you're looking stupider and stupider
Knowing security guards doesn't count.
funny guy EH !
but there is nothing on the site exept the previous work !
BTW... I think that Alstom actually has won the R160 contract(with Kawasaki), but that was to recent to have a prototype
He also said that the slants might be GOH'ed. thats not serious.
! R30 Why do you want the pics of the R160 ?
And regarding The R160 pics ?
I dont thinks So Brian !
You think i care if i will be limited to 50 post per 24 hours before i leave on sartuday at 11.30 pm ?
I dont !
Or not anymore to be exact !
And regarding The R160 pics ?
And as they say tick tock ,tick tock and one by one and there goes the clock ! :~)
ANF Industrie is a subsidiary of Bombardier, Quebec, Canada.
The R68A is Japanese, as Train Dude just pointed out.
Alstom is a French company unrelated to Bombardier.
But Wasn’t Alstom bought out by Bombardier. in late 2001 ?
David
CC am i correct !
Vlad
Besides, I can't imagine any R16 being treated to a new paint scheme in the 1980's. They were barely cleaned on the inside, let alone painted.
-- Ed Sachs
-- Ed Sachs
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I guess that R16 was an LL train trying to be an M - take your choice. I wonder what the red on the side destination sign says.
The red on the side look like the "HH" Rockaway Shuttle. If not, then it probably was the old "QB" Broadway Express. Those were the only two B division route that were colored red.
If you had children, you could say you'll also be paying higher property and income taxes for inferior and worsening schools, dirty streets, deteriorating parks, and few libary hours.
Want to know who the winners are? Find out the categories where city and state spending will be going up under these doomsday scenarios. That's right, up. Then trace back to the decisions that caused them to go up. If you want to know the score, go to www.ipny.org under "Essays" and read "The Truth About the State of New York" and "Pataki's 10 Most Unforgivable Decisions." That will tell you all you need to know.
Only if there are others who pay less for more. Those others are well represented in Albany. In fact, only they are represented in Albany.
Lemme put it to you this way. I earn about $8000 a year. My property taxes are $1250 per year and my SCHOOL taxes are in excess of $4000 a year. So we're already at $6250 ... then add in "income taxes" and forget all about sales taxes, insurance, and "user fees" ... do the math and you can see PLAINLY why Unca Selkirk is such a kvetch, I pay more in taxes that I ***MAKE!!!!*** ... and right now, the reason for my sour attitude is that if I don't come up with $4000 in one month I will lose my house and be on the street.
So for those of you who decry Unca Selkirk's "political threads" ... KISS MY ASS ... Where's the republican economy? Oh yeah. IRAQ gets our tax dollars. How could I FORGET? I don't GEt a dividend check, I don't earn over $100,000 a year. republicans can KISS my buttcrack.
BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS
collected by BuzzFlash Reader R. Miller
"President Bush said this Iraq situation looks like 'the rerun
of a bad movie.' Well sure, there's a Bush in the White House,
the economy's going to hell, we're going to war over oil. I've
seen this movie, haven't I?" -- Jay Leno
"President Bush has said that he does not need approval
from the UN to wage war, and I'm thinking, well, hell, he
didn't need the approval of the American voters to become
president, either." -- David Letterman
"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets
rid of Saddam Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with
food, medicine, supplies, housing, education - anything
that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally comes up with
a domestic agenda - and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring
that here if it works out." -- Jay Leno
"President Bush announced tonight that he believes in
democracy and that democracy can exist in Iraq. They can
have a strong economy, they can have a good health care
plan, and they can have a free and fair voting. Iraq? We can't
even get this in Florida." -- Jay Leno
"Democrats were quick to point out that President Bush's
budget creates a 1 trillion dollar deficit. The White House
quickly responded with 'Hey, look over there, it's Saddam
Hussein.'" -- Craig Kilborn
"We have it. The smoking gun. The evidence. The potential
weapon of mass destruction we have been looking for as our
pretext of invading Iraq. There's just one problem -- it's in
North Korea." -- Jon Stewart
"War continues in Iraq. They're calling it Operation Iraqi
Freedom. They were going to call it Operation Iraqi Liberation
until they realized that spells 'OIL.'" -- Jay Leno
"CNN said that after the war, there is a plan to divide Iraq into
three parts ... regular, premium and unleaded." -- Jay Leno
"Iraq began destroying those missiles they don't have over the
weekend. See, President Bush may be the smartest military
president in history. First, he gets Iraq to destroy all of their
own weapons. Then he declares war." -- Jay Leno
UH Kev Dont think So I aint kissin anyone Anotamy !
I'm SERIOUSLY considering emigrqating to Canada, New Zealand, Czech republik. Companies such as ours that are NOT subject to "World against America" boycotts, and since most Americans STEAL our software without paying for it, we could offer true encryption if only we moved offshore. Only downside would be not being able to get to Branford. :(
But as long as America gets its news from FOX and the other ministries of propaganda, I don't believe anyone will ever GET what's been going on lately. Pucker up. :(
Gotta admit though ... Muhammad al-Douri, the ambassador to the UN from Iraq is ONE CLASS ACT. Words cannot describe how much I *admire* the man, wish him wll on his haj to visit his family back in Iraq and hope they're all well (with God's grace) ... the man came off SO cool with all that's been going on and could be a GENUINE asset for both the US and the Arab world in forging some understandings if only we didn't have a reckless cowboy in Deecee now. THIS man could actually serve to SOLVE some problems if only "we" could work it out with him. I was particularly impressed by his willingness to take some reporters into his UN limo, his acility to love, HUG and get along with US media reporters, AND his concept of reality to which he faces now. This is someone who SHOULD be a future Iraqi leader, but knows his station in Allah's wisdom. A *VERY* cool person that I, as a former journalist and patriot, would LOVE to meet some day.
AH, if ONLY we had wise leaders. Alas, all we've got is a Shrub. :(
As Bill clinton once said !
Bill Clinton Quote “ I did not have any sexual relations with that woman “
LOL
And Kev Good luck And Speacking of Canada ! Remember the R142a ?
If you do you see my point!
Once again, I APOLOGIZE to folks here for my political comments, but we one HAD an economy, lead on by a PRESIDENT who caused us to have faith in AMERICA instead of one who has us going through Depends like they're toilet paper. :(
For whatever folks may have not liked about BUBBA, he at LEAST encouraged us to spend money. And we DID. And everyone did better than now. NOW we have a Shrub. The *PRIME GOALS* of Al Qaeda were as follows:
1. DECIMATE Anerica's economy.
2. DESTROY our civil liberties.
3. CAUSE us to live in persistent FEAR
Screw Al Qaeda, WE'VE got REPUBLICANS. Any questions? :(
I was born and railsed here (lucky ME) ... but you have historical lessons from your elders to compare that mpst Americans DON'T. TELL me something don't smell funny with what your relative TAUGHT you? When I told you days ago that I understood Russian culture, I wasn't kidding about it. We're talking five day old fish here. :)O
All depends on what you ascribe to the goals of the terrorists vs. what our *OWN* regime has done. After all, You know about Chechnya, no? Yea i do i live in russia for 11 years and you dont think that i would know that ? Come on !
Would Kremlin let Chechens dictate internal policy? You're RUSSKIE! Can you POSSIBLY defend what Shrub's pulling?
Dont start on that one !
Thought your family ESCAPED this "same old, same old?"
oy that is Enough !
As a born and raised AMerican, what Ashcroft and his ilk scares the QWAP outta me. I'd rather be FRENCH if this is the end game. I *KNOW* People op Russian ancestry are DEVOTED readers of history. TELL me PRAVDA that you don't recognize my concern from the history of your own nation and people?
True since You have not lived a day out there !
You *KNOW* Russian history of things repeating. You mean to tell me that this ISN'T "same old, same old" to YOU?
I was born and railsed here (lucky ME) ... but you have historical lessons from your elders to compare that mpst Americans DON'T. TELL me something don't smell funny with what your relative TAUGHT you?
No since most of the Shit that happend to my Family and myself included so id ont need a history lesson since i ve seen and expereensed thise things myself !
When I told you days ago that I understood Russian culture, I wasn't kidding about it. We're talking five day old fish here. :)O
have you ever live in russia ? For more than than A Year in A Samll City ?
Knowing you !
I guess you would Say NO
Russia's always had leaders (for better or worse) who were at least "edumicated" ... look what *WE* got ... a "leader" who called the present Premier "Pooty-poot" ... now you just *KNOW* how well THAT "disrespect" went over. :(
Like I said, I never lived there, unlike Bill Clinton, never went OVER there, but sure do UNDERSTAND reality from other immigrants ...
"In Russia, they hold you TIGHT by collar ... In AMERICA, they let you out on leash." ... no disrespect intended - ask Dad. : )
you fill in the balnk !
family Divorced before I was born!
Like looting in Baghdad, if it ain't THEIRS, it will BECOME theirs. And same for your choochoo. :(
that is comfusing !
I'm done, nighty ... last post.
which would be ????????
Hey, I wasn't blaming those who live in Albany, but those who practice the dark arts there. There are a few winners and lots of losers upstate and down. The State of New York determines who they are.
Up where *I* live, ain't no meatball. If you ain't got a HYRAIL for your Arvee, then no train for you. Yet we *PAY* like we live in White Plains, with all commensurate services to JUSTIFY the freaking tab. Aggggh. :(
As I've said before, if the legislators in Albany are such idiots, then why do people vote for them???
David
Essentially true, except that employee turnover normally drops, often significantly, when unemployment rates rise. People tend to hang onto jobs they may not particularly like when it's tough to find new jobs. Even retirement rates may drop slightly during hard times. Retirement-eligible workers whose spouses have lost jobs, or are in danger of losing their jobs, may elect to keep working a little longer until times are better. People who want to get other jobs after taking early retirement, as surely is often the case with transit workers, may decide to wait a while too.
As a result of all this, employers that want to reduce headcount through attrition, without having to resort to layoffs, frequently cannot do so when the economy's doing poorly.
IM guessing again that 99% exept the two of us dont give a ying yang about the russian Commuter transport !
Arti
Arti
According to Jane’s Urban Transport Systems, 20th Ed, 2001 ridership for Moscow was 3.2 billion. Even if ridership declined for 2002, there is no way in hell it decreased 25% to 2.4 billion.
Even if their ridership WAS 2.4 bil, it's still a billion more than NYCT, not "a thousand" as you said.
there is no way in hell it decreased 25% to 2.4 billion.
thats nothing if you lived in russia as long as i have !
What is the source for your figure of 2.4 billion?
Tom
moscow times !
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/
and the other Komsomolskaya Pravda
http://www.kp.ru/
Are satisfied Now ?
I checked both cites and found no statistics on subway usage. Since these are newspapers, they are secondary sources which should have indicated who supplied the figures they quoted.
Tom
Arti
BTW in Korea, IMO they don't use latin alphabet so your transcription is as wrong as any other.
Arti
I guess not !
So Shuddup !
Where would 800 million riders disappear anyway? Has there been a mass exodus out of Moscow? Has there been a major spike in auto sales? Ask yourself how 800 million riders would stop using the Metro, THEN you'll see how that is not possible.
If ridership was at 2.4 bil, then no one would be saying Moscow had the busiest subway, Tokyo would.
They bought a car, the closest example in US would be the suburbanization era after WW2. BTW there IS a major spike in auto sales. IMO, before demonstrating your ignorance, you should use the resources available on Internet.
Arti
I did better than looking up an internet site that can make up any number they wish. Jane's is a well-respected data-collecting company and you won't find better numbers.
Arti
Arti
Arti
Whic is your stop ?
Arti
thanks ! Vlad
Arti
>>Where would 800 million riders disappear anyway? Has there been a mass exodus out of Moscow? Has there been a major spike in auto sales?<<
I also pointed out in another post that I doubt 2002 ridership figures probably aren't availible, based on the fact that US ridership figures aren't yet availible. You have a dozen or so subway agencies in the US counting less than half the riders of Moscow, and they still haven't released their numbers. How should Moscow already have their numbers when only one agency is counting double the riders of the US? This is a very good reason why I should doubt his number. I'm pretty sure that he was readiung the third quarter numbers, based on the fact he said he read it two months ago, which is around the same time the APTA releases US figures for the 3rd quarter.
Please keep in mind that I only started this because I doubted his number. I wasn't EVEN trying get into the reasons why it declined, it just turned out that way.
1. There is a greater appreciation of public property in Russia and all of Euroope.
2. A much lower cost for labor and commitment to full employment allows more cleaning and upkeep.
Tom
It's their capitol, and in the old USSR, it was a showpiece of communism. So they spare no expense.
The corresponding system here is Washington Metrorail, and thanks to Congress, it is ornate, lavishly taken care of and is already expanding again. And, except for Georgetown, there's not a NIMBY in sight. Being in the capitol gives it certain privileges.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
The NYC Subway is safe and reliable. And many stations are clean, while some are not.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Hey, where are the crowds of people?
I wondering would it be nice if we can post our own Manny B Service Plan here and have our site host David Pirmann be the judge and have Eric B be the second judge for TA.
Somebody else pick it up from there.
In his April 8 Tunnel Vision column, Randy Kennedy writes, "In five days, when the last New York City subway token slides through the slot of the last booth to sell them, few people will notice and fewer will care."
He's wrong! I care about the end of subway tokens. I always carry a few with me, mostly for the times my Metrocard won't swipe. Usually the token booth clerk makes things O.K., but since I'm not alone, that can take time.
Why can't we get dependable readers, like those in other cities? Even the ones in city buses are easier. Since I still have problems, I pity the poor tourists.
PAULA GLATZER
New York, April 10, 2003
Either you're lucky or I'm unlucky. Much of the time when I go to a HEET (out of sight and mind of the S/A responsible for cleaning the mechanism), I have to re-swipe.
In June 1973 they reported that 108 had been completed. Supposedly they were all retrofitted with an R-44 door opener.
I first saw the slanted door pockets in 1973, as you noted above. About the same time, I noticed the ceiling paint, which had been recently redone, beginning to peel excessively.
wayne
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
The ad panels either side of the doors were replaced with enclosures that sloped inward from top to bottom. The modified door motors were inside these enclosures.
wayne
Wow, and while on the subject of the R16's, here's a photo of that painted window thing we were discussing last week:
I can't remember the R16's any other way (and certainly not the "eat off the floor look of that museum R16 above!).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
-Stef
So much for SEPTA at your service....
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I was even inteviewed. Whether I will get any airtime will remain to be seen (I hope I didn't ruin their videotape ).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
WAIT, THE INTERVIEW WAS JUST ON! I SAW SUBWAYGRRL! AND ALLAN!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Most people get 15 minues of fame - I got 7 seconds.
I am glad to see someone was watching besides myself (and I got it on tape).
This is why I need to get an ethernet cable down there.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Very photogenic!
"you don't have to carry the weight of all those coins in your pocket, whether it be loose or in a token holder"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
10 tokens does weigh enough in your pocket - it is dead weight.
A metrocard weighs barely an ounce.
I noticed that about shirts worn by women many years ago, and it has never bothered me. :-)
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Thanks Brian.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
But I would be willing to listen to whatever Ms. Sarmiento had to say. :-)
Tom
:)
Thanks !
And anyone Has An Ho scaled Drawing Status of an R16 #6452? Or Any Drawing of R16 that the willing to send that would help me a lot im planning to do a model of that car!
Thanks Again !
Vlad From Brooklyn Where weather is gorgeous out here right now!
But mean to say : And anyone Has An Ho scaled Drawing ? Or Any Drawing of R16 that the willing to send that would help me a lot im planning to do a model of that car!
Sorry im falling asleep from Studying !
What University gives a course in SubTALK?
Mt. Dew will perk you up a notch there studyboy.
And I try to take brakes because studying for 4 to 5 hours strait is starting to give me a headache!
HUH ?
I know you do train/subway car models but do you building/stanchion/environmental models?
most of the new stuff i try to build usualy comes out pretty good !
That really sucks since I thought it could be an operational unit!
Thanks Again!
Vlad
6305 and 6339 are at CI
Private owners?
it belong to TMNY ????
who owns the other two ?????????
no
Thanks anyway !
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Manually?
The guards stood between the cars to operate thee levers, just as they later did with the pneumatic or electrically operated doors.
1904-ca 1908: end doors only, manually operated
1908- ca 1922: end doors operated manually, center door operated
pneumatically through a rod from the end door operating linkage
that actuated the control valve.
post-1922: MUDC. All doors converted to trainline electro-pneumatic
operation, manual end door levers replaced with MUDC button boxes.
The exception was the 50-car "Deckroof" Hi-V order of 1907.
These cars were never converted to MUDC and retained the 2nd
configuration (above) until retirement ca 1957. There may have been
a few other "Gibbs" 1904 Hi-V cars that were also un-modified.
How many pizza places, especially in Manhattan still charge $1.50 for pizza?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
And the real comparison in May will be $1.67 for a subway ride vs. $1.90 or so for pizza. I can get 6 rides over the next year for $10. 6 slices of pizza over the next year will be $11.40 or $12.00. Also, the subway ride has gotten slightly "bigger" (free transfer to the bus thrown in) while the pizza slice hasn't.
So pizza has definitely forged ahead of subway rides in price.
Not fair! If you are going to use the discounted price of a subway ride it should be cost of 12 rides ($20.00) compared to the price of a whole pizza (assuming there are 12 slices in the whole pizza).
Tom
Some places that sell by the slice use extra large pizzas and use 30º arcs to cut their slices.
Tom
Are we talking New York City here? And traditional pizzerias rather than chains or imports (from elsewhere in the US) like thin crust pizza?
Suppose we compare Sicilian pizza, classic New York pizza (oily, on wax paper), Chicago pizza (like at Eduardos, under the Loop), Dominoes, Pizza Hut, etc.
How do they stack up to the new transit fare scheme?
Hey, wait a minute. I have to look all over town to find the real crap that is a NY pizza. :-)
Tom
In New York, standard traditional pies (not Chicago style or Pizza Hut) have 8 slices.
I cannot go into a pizzeria and say: "Here is $14 (say). I'd like a whole pie, but I'd like 1 slice each day for the next 8 days." I can do that (6 rides for $10) with the subway.
But you could take the whole pizza, and freeze the uneaten slices at home, and when you want to eat one, microwave it. Whether you want to do that or not, the analogy is the same, pay now for more than you need at the moment, and get a discount for doing so.
Tom
Do you even like pizza? A microwaved slice of pizza is worth maybe 50% as much as a fresh slice. A prepaid subway ride is worth 99% or so of the subway ride you pay for immediately before using (not 100% because you loan the MTA a bit of money and might lose the Metrocard).
Microwave pizza isn't horrible, but to compare it to a pie fresh out of the oven...
OTOH, there is a value to not having to go back out to the pizza joint again every night. So the value of that convenience compensates you, in part, for the pizza not being fresh.
Unless there is another reason to go to the pizza joint every night (like a potential date who works there and whose attention you're trying to attract).
I don't know but the eBay price just went up ;-)
Check this out--
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170101876&category=4152
AFAIK, you can still buy old tokens at the Transit Museum for $1.75.
Seriously, at this Depot they are still coming in at a good clip, but this week we may see a downward trend.
Prices down the Jersey Shore are a bit more reasonable for pizza, of course, but the analogy is the same... one plain slice $1.40, one plain pizza $9 (eight slices, or $1.125/slice) at Siino's in Eatontown. Buy in quantity, save a couple of bucks. (Indeed, on a percentage basis his discount is better than the TA's.) We lament the passing of the token, but like many other folks here I haven't used a token in several years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I *pray* and *hope* I earn my keep here in OTHER ways when I go off on my own political tangents. Seems some have been bothered by it, but I chalk many of those up to people with no PRACTICAL experience in how it's all wired. For those with civil service titles and their OWN experiences, never an argument.
Just wanted to extend my apologies AND appreciation to ya ...
wayne
There's an article in tomorrow's Times about the troubles surrounding the MTA's Inspector General's office
There's a War on Now in the M.T.A., and It Has a History
If you have the Times in your hands, you'd really have trouble missing the article. Front page of the Metro section, on top.
For those paranoids adverse to registering with the NY Times for whatever reason, it is possible to get to the article without registration by doing a Google search on the key words in their news section.
Tom
Yes.
Because I can't see the IRT still having 51' Cars for their Rush Hour Operations, and 8' width.
They're wider than that, nearly 9 feet.
And why not? It's not as if there's much of a choice in the matter.
Mark
Only every day.
Its madness!
And what reason do you have to believe that it would be any different with slightly larger equipment?
Nobody's saying that 30% more capacity wouldn't be nice, but it wouldn't make as significant an impact as you might imagine. Since a conversion of the entire mainline between Grand Central and Bowling Green would essentially involve an entire new subway line, and it would be incredibly disruptive, why not leave it and dig a _new_ line?
In the mean time, there are other ways to increase capacity on the East Side. Longer (but still narrow) trains and signal improvements are two examples. While neither is something that could be implemented next week, both are more feasible than replacing that portion of the 1904 mainline.
Mark
For example the Queens Blvd IND. Longer and wider cars and damned if that helps.
Interestingly, on the heavy rail subways in Boston and Philadelphia, each line is an incompatible clearance dimensions than the other. In Beantown, the Red Line is similar to the IND/BMT, the Orange is a little smaller, and the Blue Line resembles IRT clearances. In the Quaker City the Broad Street is an exact copy of the IND, while the Market/Frankford has car widths similar to the IRT. The Market/Frankford is unique among all North American subways because of its wide gauge (5' 2 1/4") and underrunning third rail.
Market-Frankford is Pennsylvania trolley gauge, isn't it?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
When Budd-manufactured M3 cars ("Almond Joys" of 1960 vintage with no A/C) were borrowed for use on the Norristown High Speed Line because it was short on rolling stock, they had to have their trucks replaced with trucks conforming to standard American railroad gauge.
Not quite... it's either 5' 2.25" or 5' 2.5", I don't remember which.
Until next time...
Anno_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WRONG!!!
Philadelphia gauge is Five Feet Two and 1 quarter inch.
Pennsylvania Broad Gauge is Five Feet Two and 1 half inch.
A Philadelphia car can run in Pittsburgh, but a Pittsburgh car can't run in Philadelphia.
BTW, New Orleans is Philadelphia gauge, not Pennsylvania Broad Gauge.
It was common street railway practice, in the case of standard
gauge, to use a wheelset gauge of 4' 8 1/4", i.e. 1/4" narrower
than the track gauge, presumably to reduce curve binding.
Was an analogous measure taken on broad gauge lines?
I suspect that it's AMTRAK but I doubt it is the NEC, since this was not too far from Harrisburg.
I also encountered an underpass on another highway in Pennsylvania not far from this area and I think it's a CONRAIL terminal or a small storage yard.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Has there been any "trolley transformations" in which trolleys are turned into regular, rubber-wheel operated transportation cars? (I don't know how this works) The one I spotted on the highway resembled so much as to a traditional trolley car.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You,
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Those things have the charm of a bus, while retaining all the discomfort of a vintage trolley.
Tom
-Robert King
If it was green with gold lettering, it was probably a Chance/Optima
Following Mr. Fellow's death, it has been transformed back to a street car (actually interurban car) and it is currently (?) running under wire in San Pedro, CA. (In the LA area).
You should be able to get information from the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris, CA.
1. The McDonald Avenue elevated section. Solid el structure, long platforms, nice straight run.
2. Waiting at Smith & 9th or 4th Avenue stops, at night. Excellent views all around.
This is from a railfans POV, of course. Still, for me the F train in Brooklyn always seemed more reliable than any other southern Brooklyn lines. Something about it seemed more "professional". Less interline switching, perhaps. The Sea Beach is still my favorite but all Brooklyn trains have their good points.
Mickey Rourke
First of all, they are only a couple of blocks apart, and sound carries, especially that short of a distance. The only time it doesn't is if there's other noise drowning it out. So how can people on Jamaica complain that moving the line would bring noise?
Second, about 1/4 or less (one in every 10 I saw, just estimating since I didn't see down to Crescent) buildings that are high enough that there would be the "third floor window" problem. Besides, to the north of Jam there's much cemetary and park, not lots of tall houses. How can they complain about that?
Third, this would bring the subway a little closer to them, adding convenience.
The only reason I could see is that people on Fulton don't want to let it go. I figure they don't want to walk two or three more blocks to the new stop on Jamaica.
Somebody please enlighten me, because clearly I'm not seeing something.
It won't effect the Fulton section of the line's riders at all. Only the express needs to be rerouted over Jamaica. It actually only needs to be a one track el. The locals J's would still use it's regular route over Fulton, while the expresses would be sent down Jamaica. Actually it would be foolish to abandon the Fulton section of the J. That's where the line is needed, not on Jamaica Ave next to the cemeteries. The express realignment wouldn't have any stations on it.
The middle track trough the Cypress Hills station would have to elevate through it in order to cross above the Manahattan bound local track. Similiarily, there would have to be some kind of flying junction before Broadway Junction also to again cross over the Manhattan local track.
AirTrain is the perfect excuse. Let's get the center trac on the Jamaica Line built!
I imagine a 6 tph regular J and a 6 to 12 tph express. With the M, that would mean 24 tph into the Nassau Loop. The only question is, could the merge at Myrtle handle that or would a flying junction be needed.
(The middle track trough the Cypress Hills station would have to elevate through it in order to cross above the Manahattan
bound local track. Similiarily, there would have to be some kind of flying junction before Broadway Junction also to again cross
over the Manhattan local track.)
Looking at the track map, it appears that the Broadway Junction connection would actually be a snap. I'd make Cypress Hills the first express stop after Jamaica, on two levels. Everyone boarding in Queens could switch to/from the express. At Broadway Junction, everyone in Cypress Hills/ENY could switch to the express. The local would then pick up people in Bed Stuy/Bushwick until a final merge at Marcy Ave.
(AirTrain is the perfect excuse. Let's get the center trac on the Jamaica Line built!)
I don't know if all that service would be necessary on the Nassau Line. A perfect opportunity to combine the M and the V, using Chrystie St.
Looking at the track map, it appears that the Broadway Junction connection would actually be a snap. I'd make Cypress Hills the first express stop after Jamaica, on two levels. Everyone boarding in Queens could switch to/from the express.
At first glance of the infastructure and not looking at ridership, it would seem most logical to make Cypress Hills the first express stop after Jamaica, however, Cypress Hills is one of the least used stations on the J. It would not warrant express service. I would recommend Wodhaven Blvd as the only express stop between BJ and Sutphin Blvd. Like at Cypress, the express track would have to rise through the Woodhaven station, and this time, express platforms would be built over the local tracks. It would be the least painful way to make Woodhaven and express station.
Hey! If they can VOTE, then surely they should have transit Service!
Sounds like it did,/u> work as well as could be expected, which of course is a very limited improvement. The super expresses did catch up to their leaders. In other words, they saved as much time as there was to save.
But even on paper, there's a limit to how much time you can save with what is at best a third version of skip stop. My thought was that you could get the best savings with a J, a Z, and a super express each every 15 minutes.
(I heard that it was someones idea (I don't know if it was someone from MTA or NYCT or Port Authority) to compliment the Air Train when it eventually opens)
That obviously can't work on a 2/3-track line, since airport passengers are often going against the rush. Also, the super express really only works decently if the "local" trains are skip stops themselves.
That makes me wonder...how feasible would it be to build a fourth track over the third? Peak service on the lower track, reverse-peak service on the upper, and about a 15-30 min. lapse during the midday hour, where they switch? Interlocking would be at Marcy, Myrtle, Bway Jct, and then the two tracks would run level to Crescent, where they would start the stacking again. Next interlocking should either be there or at Woodhaven, then the two tracks would each be swallowed by a Y switch before hitting the Archer ramp. The only problem would be Myrtle, how high the track would have to go to avoid the upper level. Also at Marcy it may be possible that one track or the other will have to bypass Marcy, because by the time the track could ramp up to a platform, the other end would be Hewes Street.
As for disruption during construction, how much worse could it be than when they redid all the stations on the Bway line? They would just have to suspend express service for a short period while construction commences.
I believe Robert Moses gets too much blame, but he gets the blame here. Perhaps many people might have believed that the middle class was leaving the subway behind, and that they didn't want the unwashed in their new-age airports. But if he hadn't been so anti-transit, there easily could have been an LIRR connection to JFK.
I have six, 14-15 if you count the terminals. Here're mine, starting from Euclid & Pitkin...
LCL Sutter & Pitkin
LCL Acqueduct Racetrack
LCL 114th & 135th
LCL Lefferts & 135th
LCL 130th & 135th
EXP Federal Circle
EXP Airport Terminals
Five more if you include the new Manhattan tunnel I had to put in to allow trains to serve this line:
Cortlandt & (?)
Rector & (?)
Battery Pk-S Ferry
Gov Island
Court & Schermerhorn (outside the museum tracks)
john
Isn't that the case already at 111 Street on the Flushing Line?
H-H-H-H-Hell yes!! Love those multi-layered elevated junctions!
(That makes me wonder...how feasible would it be to build a fourth track over the third?)
The way to go is to make the connection from the Montigue Tunnel track south of DeKalb to the LIRRs Atlantic Avenue branch, and covert that branch to a subway.
The super J would run from it's present terminal at 12 tph along the new third track, as discussed in this thread. Bus riders would have a free transfer to it at that level.
It would also run at 12 tph from the LIRR platforms via the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR. LIRR and Airtrain riders would have a free transfer to it at that level.
Put it together and you have 24 express trains per hour zipping people from Nassau, Suffolk, and eastern Queens to Lower Manhattan, in just 22 mintues from the point of transfer. There would be no reason for anyone from Queens to take a crowded E, F or LIRR train to Midtown, then transfer to the crowded IRT, if their destination was south of Houston Street.
1) eliminate the "S" curve.
2) Express (J) trains from Jamaica Center stay on Jamaica Avenue non-stop from Crescent to East New York, and then rush direction express to Myrtle and Marcy.
3) Local (JJ) trains run from a new Rockaway Blvd Terminal on Fulton Street.
4) the (M) terminates on the old upper level and becomes a shuttle with a walking connection to the (J)-(JJ). (Until the New Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway is built!)
Elias
I *was* thinking of that as I looked at my street map.
The *easiest* connection would be to join it to the Montague east of Court Street.
But, from there to where? Nassau Street. Make the (J) train into a little bow-tie from Jamaica Center, under the over around and through?
Keep it on the Broadway Line, prhaps as a local to Astoria (replace the proposed (W) alignment to Whitehall)
Having the Myrtle Line back would be one of the greatest things to happen to Brooklyn since the invention of Sliced Bread!
Elias
Long as we're supposin', how about a LRT line down Myrtle connecting to an expanded ferry service at the old Fulton Ferry dock? The LRT line could start at Broadway, over the J/Z line, where the Myrtle Avenue train stopped.
Sure have express service on the J line, at the expense of and while totally screwing Bushwick, Ridgewood, and Middle Village riders on the M.
I recomended once reopening the upper level for the weekend and night M shuttle to avoid the J track crossover, but by no means ever would have wanted it to be permanentally banned to never going to Manhattan.
Of course, to be fair the original post said, "4) the (M) terminates on the old upper level and becomes a shuttle with a walking connection to the (J)-(JJ). (Until the New Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway is built!)." To that I say, build the line first, even with the increased confidence the capital plan might afford.
Of course, I happen to think that given the requisite funding (which isn't forthcoming, of course), the M line would be nice to expand. By this I mean that the M and G routes would be nice to link up. I have in mind a connection from Broadway/Myrtle El to the center tracks at Bedford-Nostrand Avenues, by subway. This, of course, does little for the branch of the Crosstown line going from Court Square to Myrtle-Willoughby Avenues, but perhaps then to Manhattan via the Rutgers Street tunnel and following the current V route the rest of the way. At least, that's one dream scenario, motivated by improving access into Manhattan.
You know, there's finally something to fill up all those cable channels with! Imagine being able to tune into the real-time forward view video of your choice! Oh, I feel like seeing the uptown C.P.W. express run, go for a little freight action crossing the Mighty Miz, then I'll switch to the San Diego Trolley for a while! I ain't kiddin' on this. Wonder when the idea will appear? I've also had thoughts about real-time video views from migrating birds and such....
Oh well, we can dream, can't we?
--Mark
"This special edition of TRC Sports-Train Races has been brought to you by:
AMTRAK-'What a difference the train makes.'
and MTA New York City Transit-'Going your way.'"
LOL!
Once he closes the doors, the computer is given "Indication-1" and the train moves out at 15mph.
If everything remains all clear, he or she closes his or her window, and the computer is given "Indication-2" and the train accelerates smartly to 75 mph (If it is an express~~ or to what ever speed the line calls for if it is not).
The Operator in the Fifth Car, does have a systems monitor which shows the occupancies of the whole line in relation to his or her own train. There is a forward looking monitor, but since there are no signals, all the operator really has is an over-ride handle to take control of the train.
There is a similar operating position in the front of the first car for emergency or yard movements. But for the most part the front of the train is a wide railfan window.
Elias
I'd have to call it a miserable failure; on some runs, newspapers and paper bags are all over the seats, and coffee is all over the floor.
I'd say that more aggressive treatment is called for, though even in the best of times, security is busy with more pressing matters, like not letting a repeat of 12/7/93 happen again.
To SLIGHTLY defend LIRR riders, Amtrak, say, does have trash containers in each car which the LIRR lacks.
But the problem isn't confined to the trains alone. Is NYC the dirtiest city in the country? Sometimes it sure seems like it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You've not been to San Francisco lately, I gather. Bad enough you have dirt everywhere, but the place is filled with homeless bums hitting you up for money all the time, not to mention tons of rotted college kids living on the streets. Seriously, I was there this summer and IMHO, it's as dirty as NYC is.
You can always do your part. If you see a coffee cup left half full on a bench, toss it in the waste basket.
I know! there's this guy on Subtalk named after a defunct 8th Avenue Subway train who posts a ridiculously large number of posts and rarely adds anything constructive.
Bismarck, North Dakota is on of these. There were some folk out here from some big city somewhere, they were evaluating cities for some sort of an award. Unimpressed with our clean down town, (lots of cities have clean downtowns...) tey asked to see the slums. The city fathers looked at each other, scratched their heads and said that there were not any. The visitors did not believe this, and needed to see for themselves... so they were given some city cars, and some maps, and told they could look around for themselves.
The *did* find the trailer parks down by the airport, all neat and clean, without trash on the streets or any think like that. Just a nice clean city.
Then there was the time some big federal bigwig came to town and the state govenor drove to the airport to meet him in his pick-up truck.
Take *tht* you chaufeour driven stretch Cadillac!
Elias
CG
New Yorkers are slobs, plain and simple. It starts with the MTA. I regularly see MTA contractors smoking and discarding cigarette butts on the platform while working in stations. I also see MTA platform conductors throwing trash onto the tracks while they have nothing to do between trains. Passengers are worse of course, and several times I've seen parents actively tell their young kids to throw leftover foodstuffs and trash onto the tracks, platform, or train floor. The problem is that everyone thinks of public property as being owned and maintained by some faceless bureaucractic enemy ("The City"), and not by themselves.
A few weeks ago, as my train rolled into Penn the conductor announced: "It now appears that the Clean Train Campaign may never come to an end. Our only hope is that you folks take the trash off the train throw it in a garbage can. Penn Station. Last Stop. All change here."
CG
I leave the train with my trash and deposit it in the waste cans all the time. I see others drop off their paper bags and newspapers too. But I still see newspapers, rolling bottles and paper bags on the floor. You can't fault the clean train campaign for that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hit them in the pocketbook
Trash cans on train can lead to potential security issues. It is easy to deposit a bomb into the trash can, get off the train and detonate it remotly or by timer
simple, yes.
Elias
That might work in Singapore, but I doubt that Americans would accept the idea that personal possessions could have hard to remove stickers placed on them. If these stickers are being placed on newspapers they would have to be placed on each page. If they are placed on a paper bag, the part with the sticker on it could be torn off and taken with the litterer, while he leaves the bag and its contents (now spilling out of the torn bag) behind.
Tom
Don't get me wrong, I am a Pennsylvania native and I spent the majority of my life in Philly, and I love the place.
But walk through any street, and you will step over newspapers, garbage, and all sorts of shit. The subway in general stinks, but not all stations have a foul odor. On some of the Regional Rail trains, you get good views of some of the streets, and you can see the sidewalks are just lined with litter in many places.
Regional Rail trains often have newspapers all over the seats, but not much more than that. They are relatively clean.
Oh Well, the thought the Mrtle Avenue El was useless too.
Elias
1. Why did the TA stop E service out to Euclid Ave or the Rockaways during the rush hours in 1976??
2. When the E trains did get extended to Euclid or the Rockaways, were their headways as long as the "C" is today??
Tony
Knowing how the TA likes to cut corners, they probably figured by cutting the "E" back to WTC and extending the "CC" along Fulton St., thus cutting the amount of tph along the Fulton St. Local, and also, cutting the train lengths from 10 cars ("E") to 8 cars ("CC") would save a couple of $$.
An example of how it would be if the "E" were extended along the Fulton St. Local happened twice. First time when the TA replaced the crossover just north of the WTC station-which caused suspension of "C" service, and replaced by the "E". The second time was post 9/11.
When the TA operated the "E" in Bklyn at the 3 - 5 min headways, a lot of the trains were virtually empty.
Ahh...those were the days...when I could take the B60 to Fulton and not worry about missing the train and having to wait 10 minutes for the next one...
A trains actually come pretty often during da rush.
The money savings (7 rush hour Cs to Brooklyn rather than 12 rush hour Es) probably didn't hurt either.
Not really. At the time of the switch, August 1976, the TA assigned approximately 272 R32s to the "CC"-definately not the oldest equipment. The exclusive R10 operation didn't start on the "CC" until October 1977. At that point, the conductors got the raw deal.
Do you have any idea why this was done with the R32s on the "A"?
I do remember one car that was repainted in the TA colors around 1983 or 1984. It was #3324. The damn TA only painted the front, back and sides. Didn't touch the roof.
I did ride on 5-car trains on the 3 in the late 70s. IIRC the conductor was between the first and second cars.
I can vaguely remember seeing a 6-car train on the 7 during midday in August of 1977. Of course, I'd just gotten off a plane from Switzerland, so jet lag may have fogged the memory cells a bit.:)
However, you're right about the TA trying to run them as little as possible. The R46s provided the bulk of the "CC" service during rush hours. During non-rush hours, the "CC" (Rockaway Park Shuttle) was 100% R10s.
The R46s provided about 30 to 35% of the service on the "A" during rush hours. During non-rush hours, the "A" was 97% R40s with an occasional R10 or R46.
Good one !
PS, could anybody tell me what I am doing wrong. Information will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thank you.
If it doesn't work, the http addresses are as follows:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5144.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5156.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5260.jpg
Here we go, one more time. On this site, you now have to right click the pictures, and click properties to get the proper link of the photo to post it:
Wow, R40's on the GG and F!
Graffiti showing it's face:
Wish me luck.
Here are some examples of equipment used on the "CC" during 1976-80 (exception of the R10s).
I think that's also the only time in history when the R44's were called on to replace failing equipment. Usually, they were being replaced themselves!
When enough of the R38s were finished, the R27s were gone from the "A".
In other word, there were NO R44s on the "A" from early 1980 until January 1981.
Anyway you're right. Everything was okay on the "CC" until that faithful day in October '77. Anytime it looked like the R10s were gone from the "CC", after a couple of months, there back.
Example:
R40s from Sept. to Oct. '77.
Then all R10s.
Mostly R46s from June '80 to Jan. '81.
Then all R10s
Mostly R38s from May of '83 to approx Apr. of '85 (the longest run)
Then all R10s.
This remained until the R27s started sneaking in around 1986.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
'Is MTA/New York City Transit Authority the "ENRON" of the public sector?'
Check this link out... I knew about it for sometime, but never bothered to mention it until now.
http://www.newyorkcitytransit.com/
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Must be Summit. On the weekends, most Hoboken trains go to Gladstone and most Midtown trains to Dover, but there are exceptions.
If you are departing from Hoboken you'll probably need to transfer at Summit; if you are departing NY Penn you should be able to stay on the same train all the way to Dover. But ask the conductor to be sure.
Is there any mass transit system that has an operational energy regeneration system working?
Depends how short a "track section" is. And does it contain both express and local tracks?
On most tracks in rush hour, there's another train pretty close by.
(Could an energy storage unit be put underneath one of the cars of a 4 or 5 car set, that would store the energy and then feed it back to power the lights and heating and airconditioning of that set? )
I suspect lights and A/C don't take much power relative to propulsion of the train.* And batteries of any kind (including fancy technologies like flywheels) weigh and cost a lot.
* Easy high school physics exercise. A subway car weighs 30,000 kg, and is slowed down from 20 mps to 3 mps by regenerative braking. How much energy can be collected? E=.5*m*(v squared) = 5.9 million joules = 1.63 kilowatt hours, which will power the lights and A/C for quite a few minutes, depending on the load the A/C requires.
You would be absolutely right. A small fraction of it.
But it is possible that a nearby train is also decelerating and therefore also generating extra current. For the system to be practical, there has to be some way capture the regenerated energy system wide. That is an electrical engineering problem, which could be solved, but apparently the MTA believes the costs of implementing such a system exceeds the costs of wasting the energy through heat dissipation.
Tom
Regenerative braking is interesting to watch sometimes, especially if the equipment is out of adjustment slightly. Several months ago, I was on a train that was sitting in a station when a train going the other way arrived on the other side of the platform. The train arriving had regenerative braking and it was being used. Right as you could hear the brakes being applied, the lights got brighter and the pitch of the MA set of the car I was on got higher and remained that way until the arriving train had slowed almost to a stop and the regenerative braking had fallen off. At that point, the MA set's pitch and the light brightness both returned to their usual level.
Usually, on board resistors are used to throw off excess regenrative current as heat, but, as I said, if the equipment is off specification or malfunctioning, the results can be interesting to watch and this is a mild example of what can happen to an H6 that needs to be tuned up.
-Robert King
21 Street
but now
21 Street
Queensbridge (smaller)
Of course, day zero was a really long day on the 63rd Street Tunnel. Did the plan for a station at 21st Street come about when the super express option was abandoned (not permanently, thankfully-note the turnouts left in place for when there is presumably enough money to do the project)? Same question for the station at Roosevelt Island too.
If anything, I'd expect "Queensbridge" to be phased out over time.
Arti
BTW, where are these "Bryant Park" signs? I didn't see any when I went looking. Bryant Park was mentioned on the exit signs, but that doesn't make Bryant Park the name of the station.
Thanks.
It's apparently an attempt at unifying the entire complex, as there are now "5 Av-Bryant Park" pillar signs on the 7 platform.
Or Roosevelt Island?
The proposed names for the stops on the Second Avenue Subway include some stops which emphasize neighborhood, not street intersections.
It's named for John R. Slattery, Deputy Chief Engineer of the BoT from 1925 to his death in 1932. He was hired away from the Army Corps of Engineers specifically to work on design and construction of the IND.
wayne
There are also Briarwood-Van Wyck Boulevard signs on the street stairways.
wayne
1) What percentage of R68s/R68As make this noise? If you don't know exactly, take a guess out of experience if you can.
2) Why do only certain cars make this noise, and is there a pattern as to the ones that do by ID# or line? (It is strange to see a car making the noise in between two cars that aren't.)
3) May be answered with #2, why do ANY cars make this noise?
Where are our resident electricians on this question?
Where's the electrician when you need him/her? I need to talk to Dave Pirmann about the rates they get for consulting on this board...:0)
The sound you are referring to is, as you suggest, coming from the static converter. There is a very perceptable pitch change form the nominal 1500Hz as the load changes. You can hear the sound more clearly on the R-44/R-46 fleets where there are just 2 converters for every 4 cars. It's less perceptable on fleets like the R-68/R-68A where each car has a converter to handle the load.
The sound when the cars are moving is directly related to the very tight tollerances that were used when the R-68/R-68A trucks were rebuilt during SMS. Largely benign gear and bearing noise.
The PA hum is a problem with an open ground loop in the cars. Where? Engineer ing has been looking into it for ?????? years now.
Are you sure the noises were coming from the trains? I hear that heypaul emits some strange noises too.
I was quite interested in going "Hippo hunting" on that trip, rode some of yours as well. Didn't catch THAT noise on any of the D's I rode, but did catch the PA squeal when the PTT was hit, but ONLY between 59 and 145. Got quiet once it got to the Bronx, and hadn't heard it south of 59 either. Then again, it wasn't all that far removed from what I remembered of the 42's and 44's when they lived on the D. But I'll say this, only rode maybe ten trains while I was down there, but YOUR 68's were in MUCH better condition than CI's ...
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I also posted a question that I don't think was directly answered. That was the R62(A)'s and the R68(A)'s make a steady, slight air release noise until it completely stops. What is the cause of this noise?
#3 West End Jeff
Only a passing mention of the West End Line, but it's Brooklyn, and Brooklyn and transit are nearly synonymous, IMO.
Larry with his hair combed doesn't look as much like Ed Koch.
I guessed at the labeled, "42nd St." The most obvious clue would be the streetcar tracks. In the background there appears to be an el (the 3rd Ave. el, perhaps?), then further back there appears to be an approach to Grand Central Terminal.
Anybody want to take a stab at where the "Interborough Subway" sign was?
The other four have been up for a few months; however, I rescanned them directly from the original negatives in the hope of bringing out some additional detail. It seems the photo shop really cranked up the contrast when they printed the photos, so I backed off on it during the scanning. One change I made was the labeling of the direction in the two 6th Ave. el pics. If even-numbered streets in Manhattan ran from west to east in the 1930s as they do now, then the view with the train is looking north.
You might also spot a few additional details in the Myrtle Ave. line photo. You can just barely see the bottom of the "Trains stop at Centre of Platform" sign. One nice thing about scanning a negative is that you can capture the entire frame doen to the last millimeter. IIRC someone said that stop is either Knickerbocker Ave. or Seneca Ave.
And I'm still trying to figure out where that mystery el photo was taken. While my grandfather catalogued his M45 format photos very meticulously, his 35 mm negatives (which is what these pics are) were labeled only with the general theme or location, in this case New York. He did label one negative, "Boat ride around Manhattan" in Lithuanian. Yes, he went on the Circle Line. Bridge photos are in abundance, but there are no pics of Yankee Stadium or the Polo Grounds. He wasn't a sports fan.
Check 'em out here.
You can also see streetcar tracks, so 42nd St. would make sense. As a side note, those two vertical pics were not taken in sequence. They're not even on the same roll.
I would guess the photo was taken at the location of the present-day Grace building facing Bryant Park.
IRT Sign
What station is that on Myrtle Ave? It surprises me that the station looks so "clean". There are no vending machines on the platforms, and the platforms are clearly not wood. From the picture itself, without the additional knowledge that it was with other photos from 1936, I would guess the date as in the late ‘50s.
BTW, what application is generating the .jpg images? They will not load in most of my viewing software which usually load .jpg without any problems.
Tom
-- Ed Sachs
For a while I thought that may have been a different crosstown street with New York Railways streetcar tracks. My grandfather was in the US in August and September of 1936, and the remaining NY Railways lines had been abandoned in April or thereabouts.
Posted on:4/11/03 4:13:09 PM
Due to a 4 train with mechanical problems at Grand Central, Brooklyn bound 4 trains are running local between Grand Central and 14th Street until further notice.
END OF NOTICE
I sure hope that train is gone by now!!! Also, they seem to have forgotten about the 5.
I wonder how long till the MTA does automated email notification of delays like WMATA does.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Washington, DC
Ride-On (Montgomery County, MD)
New York City Subways and Buses
Metro-North Railroad
New Jersey Transit
PATH
SEPTA
PATCO
MARTA
MBTA
CTA
Montréal
Haifa (Israel) Carmelit
Egged (Israel)
London Transport
Docklands Light Railway
Park City (Utah) Transit
If that list isn't long enough for your liking, then what does it take to be able to make a statement about which systems have good customer service?
New York City Subways and Buses
Metro-North Railroad
Long Island Railroad
New Jersey Transit
PATH
WMATA (I never rode it, but I took a look around the stations and looked inside the cars)
I still think the MTA is the best in Subway Operations and my especially favorite LIRR, I think the WMATA is Subway/Railroad, because I saw photos of it and it runs like a Railroad outside next to highways and what not, and the speed is pretty close to our LIRR and MNCR.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
MetroRail is definately a high class subway. It is not commuter rail no matter what people think because it operates more as a subway. I still stand behind my opinion.
Back to the original topic of the thread, 4 trains are still presumebly making local stops...
Because I had to get back to my Amtrak Train which was leaving in 10 mins., besides me riding the WMATA would not change my mind.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Of all of these systems, Berlin is a clear best in customer service, with signs saying which train will come and in how many minutes
I have also been on the Baltimore Light Rail.
More total capacity.
Almost all the capital expense of the NYC subway system, and much of the operational expense, is governed by the need to serve the rush hour traffic.
The L is jammed because of demographic changes. They need every bit of room they can get. If they buy trains with less capacity, they have to buy (and operate) more of them.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
These style manuals probably let you split infinitives (THE HORROR!)
I don't remember offhand, and I'm too lazy to search right now, but I'm only referring the plural suffix following a numeral (like 143).
These style manuals probably let you split infinitives (THE HORROR!)
I speak English, not Latin. The "rule" to not split infinitives (whoops!) was invented by prescriptivists who wanted English to mimic Latin. Fortunately, it never took hold except inside high school English classrooms (and even in high school English classrooms it never made it off the blackboard).
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
That is probably true, but there is less expense in building the car by using the plain bar, and no moving parts that can wear out or break and need additional maintenance. Cost cutting trumps comfort. :-(
Tom
On what grounds do you make this assertion? Subway style transverse seating have low seatback, so you have to reat your head on the person behind you. Also, aside from the issue of backsupport, transverse and longitudinal seating on subway cars with both are designed the same.
I think that, for many, the strap is easier to hold onto, especially if you are not a six footer.
What medicine did they put you on in that "hospital"? Straps are for novelty purposes only. If I were not a railfan I would find them utterly useless. The only thing worse from a stability standpoint are those stupid balls they use on the LUL.
LOL i find those straps compleatly useless and im 6foot 5in !
I know ADA (in the setting of a building, not a subway car) frowns on standard doorknobs in favor of "graspable" ones with arms that stick out, since not everyone has a strong grip. I wonder how this applies to subway car design.
I say was because the railfan restaurant is gone.
Simon
Swindon UK
Tho I remember the platform-level windows not long ago...
It has long been said that the base transit fare and the price of a (good) slice of pizza tend to roughly parallel one another. When one goes up, the other can't be too far behind. That was part of why I thought the new fare would be $1.75!!
This is so true. When I was a teenager, and preteen in the late so's and 80's, this formula worked. I remember vaguely the subway/bus being $.75, and so was a slice of Pizza. It went up to $.90, and so did a slice of pizza. It held true for $1.00, $1.25, and $1.50. I always compared the price of a subway ride to the slice of pizza. I lost track of a it more recently because I don't count my pennies like when I was a teenager, and rarely just buy one slice of pizza anymore. I guess it's close, because I think a good slice of pizza is close to $2.00.
My only concern was that when the cost of a subway ride was reduced from $1.50 to $1.36 due to MetroCard a few years back, the cost of a slice of pizza did not go down with it.......
It shouldn't have. But the per-slice price of a whole pie ("MetroPie"?) might correspond with the MetroCard "bargain" rate.
I asked the owner about the display and it turns out that most of it is from the collection of Brian Merlis (aka "Mr. Brooklyn").
I highly recommend a stop for a bite at Armando's as you will not be disappointed by the new decor that awaits your eyes! (I'm certainly going to make it a 'pit-stop' during the 'Last Ride on the Sneidiker El' event next month).
Simon
Swindon UK
--Mark
I'm getting nostalgic now. You're gonna make me go down there for an impromptu visit! LOL
Jimmy
Queensboro Plaza.
One time, I was in the mood for Blimpie's Sandwiches. I found one on a street adjacent to the massive station complex. I was able to sit inside, and gaze at both the upper and lower levels, carrying the 7's mix of Redbirds and Silverbirds. It really was something to admire.
These make up the two legs of a right triangle. Express trains use the hypotenuse of the right triangle, a dedicated route under Northern Blvd.
scrapeed since 1998 !!
Calssic R12
It's the truck of a mobile wash service.
Really good advertising....
In a small North Dakota town... there were two barber shops.
One was very neat and clean, and the barber was well groomed.
The other shop was rather messy, and the barber had a poor haircut.
Now... which barber shop would you go to?
: )
There will ALWAYS be a lot of people standing on the Bridge platform, thinking that the N and R trains stop there, anytime day or night. After all, Canal Street is a tourist station (for people to visit the Chinatown area.)
For that matter, people still haven't adjusted to the removal of the F from 53rd Street. This past Saturday, while getting off a downtown E at 5th Avenue, I noticed a lot of people remained on the platform- despite the conductor's repeated announcements that there was no weekend V service down 6th Avenue, and that this E train was the only service. Someone responded "What V?! I want the F!!"
Similar occurrences are still common on weekends at Lex/53rd and 23rd/Ely. If someone rebuffs my advising them that they just let the only train in service pass, I can only wish them a safe wait till Monday morning.
Come to think of it, there are still people who steadfastly wait for the N in Manhattan- letting many Rs and Ws go by. This is especially prevalant above 34th Street, where they're convinced the W will NOT take them Astoria.
Heh heh. That is so true. I have seen people waiting there back then when there weren't even rails in the trackbed! And then they would look at you like you have two heads when you try to help them and tell them they have to go to the N and R platform!
Actually it will be hard to keep people from waiting there. As mentioned, you can't even rope the track off because of the lack of pillars. Back in September when they had the bridge closed on some weekends, it was chaos with all the people waiting there, and the Saturday I was there, there were only about one or two handwritten signs taped on the walls that most people didn't even read.
NO SERVICE AT THIS PLATFORM
I have to go to Bay Ridge from Herald Square every Saturday. Looks like a long ride. I may try the IRT to Atlantic, but there are frequent GOs there too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wouldn't bother with the IRT going to Herald Square. Going back I might, since it's such an easy walk from the SB IRT platform to the BMT at Pacific.
I often head to brooklyn from astoria on weekends, though I reckon I can make the trip via the g and a quick walk over to dekalb and get where i need to go in perhaps 40 minutes...
them subway schedules they hand out sure do come in handy sometimes...
There's no additional transfer involved. Q trains will be making all the stops they make now. Through Q passengers will lose about 8 minutes. R/W passengers who used to transfer to the Q will lose less than 8 minutes, since now they won't bother transferring. Brighton passengers bound for lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn will save time.
My advice? Bring a book and keep your seat.
Hope springs eternal. On Saturday, with all three services running n/b over the bridge, I would come into DeKalb with a Q right on the tail of a W (the leaving signal was still red). Standing on the platform were at least 50 people, scattered the length of the station. Why did they transfer? or did that many people enter DeKalb in a one minute span on a Saturday morning?
(I know, I'm grasping at straws.)
According to other postings, this is not related to the bridge. It is due to work at Dekalb.
What ? when ? Where the hell have i been ?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Check Outr New York City BVE Authority here!
Whi cars did you hear the32GE ? or the other ones ?
When they first overhauled the R38s and R32GEs, ALL of them originally had that R40 sound-in fact, it was originally the R38 sound. But throughout time the TA started messing with the R32GE and R38s, and you have today's results.
Huh??? Could you please phrase your question in the form of a
comprehensible and complete English sentence?
What is an Airline Noise? You mean a voice comes over the PA
and apologizes and announces that the seat belt light has been
turned off?
ever hear of alsots? they've already built the first 20 R-160's!
But the R-44's don't do that, so apparently he's referring to something else.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
It comes from the traction motors. It's either the cooling
fan which is inside the motor attached to the rotating armature,
or it is noise from the carbon brushes rubbing on the commutator.
I've heard this noise on many car classes, not just R44s.
Perhaps Train Dude knows why some cars make the noise more than
others.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Of course I'm sure that R30 wouldn't look like that for long after the photo was snapped.
Also, is "Herald Square - 34 St" a destination on the R32 side signs?
Before I proceed, I'll apologize for being pedantic. With that cleared I'll note that the statement should be qualified by "except for the R-143 cars", unless something very unforeseen happens to the newest generation of 60' cars. :)
I want to note that the R-32 cars are not on the retirement block, though (the 10 R-32GE cars excepted, of course).
As for the R-32 signage, I suppose that one could not have really reasonably (there isn't infinite space on these signs) anticipated that Avenue X would be used as a terminal
I always wanted to see a photo of Lorimer before the apartment complex was built there.
Not to mention the "Trains stop at the CENTRE of the platform sign". Well the trains do run under "Centre Street".
Also, the name "West Farms Square" is not relatively new. The town of West Farms was formed in 1846 and this was its town center. It therefore predates Tremont Avenue or East 177th Street.
I waited there to see that the token clerk wrote that tokens could not be sold anymore
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I wanted to see if I could get better information on Stillwell, so I consulted both Fausser and Cudahy, but came up dry on both. In fact, Cudahy tells us very little about Stillwell in terms of dates, despite the fact that its opening was one of the big events in Coney Island transportation.
Anyway, I dug into my own research material, and here is some more information, which could make for a more accurate timeline.
Between 59th Street and New Utrecht Avenue, as part of the through service from Chambers to Coney Island: 6/22/1915.
Between New Utrecht (Bath Junction) and Coney Island, using BRT Standards with trolley poles January 28, 1915. So far this is the earliest operation of [BMT] Standards in revenue service anywhere that I am confident of. I'm not certain whether this service operated continually until June 22, since Sea Beach trolleys also continued running until then.
The operation into Coney was also 6/22/1915, but this was obviously not Stillwell. As I previously stated, the earliest definitive date I have for Sea Beach service into Stillwell is 10/18/20. However, since the Sea Beach and West End were sharing terminal facilities pre-Stillwell, I would consider it probable that Sea Beach entered Stillwell the same time as West End, i.e., 12/18/1918, or very soon after. But that's just a "probable."
So Dave, which dates will you use?
As to the other dates, the Stillwell terminal date (original opening) can possiblly br cross-referenced in contemporaneous newspaper accounts. The January 1915 date probably can't be found in a newspaper, because it was something of an internal "event."
Also FWIW, the "official" opening of Stillwell was 5/29/1919.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
However, if anyone's a Married with Children fan, FX has aired recent the episode where Al is selling the Dodge and 2 Arab looking folk come toting a bomb asking for the keys and directions to the Sears tower.
So Fox cuts that Simpsons episode and leaves the Married? Kinda sucks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
"Maybe it collapsed on it's own"
"Do you want to take that chance?"
"I want to take a chance...you never take a chance".
Maybe in another thread, we'll discuss the current plight of the Canal Street Bridge, debate the merits of running a train from 6th Avenue via the Delancey Street Bridge, or lament the long-gone elevated trains that once ran on the Chambers Street Bridge.
If that happens, then I'll have no choice but to leave the city on the 125th Street Bridge or the 178th Street Bridge (or is that the George 178th Street Bridge?).
Mr. Burns: Simpson!
Bart: Aah!
Mr. Burns: I've just reviewed your ten-year performance record, and its appalling.
Bart: But I'm not Homer Simpson.
Mr. Burns: I think I know who Homer Simpson is. In ten short years, you've caused seventeen meltdowns. One is too many!
Bart: Yeah, but...
Mr. Burns: You sold weapons-grade plutonium to Iraqis... with no markup!
According to DirecTV, they're going to be showing "Saddlesore Galactica" ON TWO CONSECUTIVE DAYS!
I just changed my TiVo Season Pass for the Simpsons to FIRST RUN ONLY.
and you told me al be fine !
Yes. It would be slightly longer than the X51 because it would go downtown, but it wouldn't go to Auburndale.
There are definitely buses longer than the X51. The X21 comes to mind.
"No Pizza. Only Khlav Khalash, on a stick, stick"
That was my favorite part in that episode. Even Bart begging for money on the subway was funny.
"Look kids! Fourth Ave! Governors Island! The Williamsburgh Bridge! New York is just chocked full of monuments!"
Anyway, is there a connection, or is it just a coincidence, or is it still a matter for speculation??
Dunno for sure, but the Simpsons is full of sometimes-obscure cultural references. My guess is that Matt Groenig planned it that way.
Where did Matt Groening get the names for the Simpson family?
Homer and Margaret ("Marge") are the names of his parents (Mrs Simpson is Marjorie); the names of Matt Groening's sons are Homer and Abe. His siblings are, in birth order, Mark (unused so far), Patty, (then came Matt), Lisa, and Maggie (named Margaret like her mother but called Maggie). Maggie Groening has written a series of children's books featuring Maggie Simpson, and for the illustration, she enlisted her older brother's help.
The name Bart is simply an anagram for "brat", although on several occasions MG has said he is strongly influenced by both himself and his brother Mark.
The surname Simpson is a natural choice for the family as the name "Simpson" literally translates to "Son of a Simpleton".
There has also been debate on the group about the film Day of the Locust. It seems a character from this film is actually named Homer Simpson, and has exhibited characteristics with uncanny similarities. It is unknown for sure whether this film has ANY connection with MG's choice of name, whether it is pure coincidence, or whether MG just took advantage of that coincidence.
Incidentally, MG's mother's maiden name is Wiggum, and many of the secondary characters are named after streets in Portland, Oregon. Examples include Flanders, Van Houten, Quimby, and Lovejoy. In fact, some street signs in Portland for "NE FLANDERS ST." (NE = Northeast) were once vandalized so that they would read as "NED FLANDERS ST."
I think the general concensus is that they started falling around S8 or 9. Hopefully in season 15 they'll get back to their roots.
If anything, Homer is rarely used for anything involving intelligence anymore, but rather serves as the cheap way out for comedy relief. You can't pass ONE recent episode without him experiencing some sort of injury or harrassment. It gets tired after a while...
If anything, Lisa is my favorite character. I love all of her oriented episodes, like the one where she gets involed with Mr. Burns to make oil, or when she becomes a Buddhist, or when she thinks she has the 'Simpson Stupid' gene.
Actually, if you know anything about PHOTOGRAPHS, you can see it's a fake, and computer generated. Just look at the knobs on the route panel, the pane in the window, the stickers on the doors on the right, the doors themselves, the stormdoor....none of these items are real photographs, they are clearly computer generated.
Not only is the photo a fake, it's not a particularily good fake.
and i dont ride the subwy that muck i just drive !
But using a computer was a lot cheaper, and authenticity was not high on his list.
You will have to explain in detail how you know each of the items was computer generated. It is cheaper to take a picture of a real interior and add pictures of real people in the background and photograph real people for the foreground and then assemble the images than to computer generate everything. Lets face it, even the best Japanese anime (or virtual porn) does not look this real.
I would suggest that this car does in fact exist somewhere in the world, and the people pictured also exist, and a computer was used only to edit the images.
Maybe I am not clear on the concept, but I get the impression that each element of photos you linked to came from photographs of stations, rather than being written as a computer program, so the final result is from photo editing. If that is not the case, then it is impressive programming.
In the case of the subway car in the ad, why would anyone want to generate a wholly fictional railcar rather than using existing images and inserting the people, the destination signs, and the scenes through the windows?
Tom
Amazingly if you look at the handhold on the seat, its right for an R32.
wayne
Look at the ceiling and the way it's constructed. Doesn't it look like an "arnine" deck roof ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Looking out the window, there appears to be an R-62 in the background, but this is also a layered image.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
No way!
Tom
In fact, I don't think that's even a REAL subway car in that photo. For some reason it reeks of "studio mockup" to me.
Thank you Steve !
Bill "Newkirk"
I have also concluded that the chick to the left of "Wierd Al" has nice legs !
Bill "Newkirk"
I never said anything about the people, just the subway car itself. As far as shooting movies, commercials etc. it runs into big money to charter a train on the GC Shuttle. They've even gone to Canada and dress up their subway cars and tried to pas them off as NYC (ex. Big Girls Don't Cry).
Next time check out "Ghost", I spotted some phoney baloney that arose my suspicion. The storm door with the door handle mounted low, car numbers that would be on a slant 40 and not an R-38, even the picture windows had aluminum strips to mimic the vent windows. They can't be opened ! And how about when the ghost pushes Patrick Swayze through the storm door and he lands on his back. Since when does the diamond plate extend the entire width of the anticlimber ?
My point is that it's no big deal to construct a set for a movie shoot and reuse it again and again. Could this be the case ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah yes ! but nowadays, the T.A. charges big bucks to charter a train and use a station for a brief shoot in a movie or commercial. The movie producers will opt for a phoney set. We've all seen them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
It's more like Hollywood doesn't care about the shap-eyed buffs in the audience. OTOH, some of the posters here are so parochial that they consider it cheating if any subway scene for a commercial is filmed outside of New York, even when there is nothing in the commercial to identify the location as New York.
Tom
Speaking of Ghost, that movie drove me crazy when I first saw it. It obviously was a real station because of the trains going through it, and I couldn't figure out what station they filmed it in. I tried to figure out what station looked like that because I thought the "42nd Street" signs HAD to be fake. I was trying to figure out what station had only one platform and one track (like Fulton JMZ, 14th/6th etc). None of them fit. It wasn't until I found this site in 1998 that I realized there was an abandoned station under 42nd Street/8th!
Then it all made sense. The tall escalator Patrick Swayze runs down at "Franklin" was this:
You even see that old hanging sign in some of the Ghost scenes.
The scene at "42nd Street" was really 42nd Street playing itself in a long scene where the subway ghost teaches Patrick Swayze's character how to move things as a ghost. The mosaics are weird looking (New IND style), that's why they looked weird in the movie:
Looking south, the lower level was underneath the southbound platform.
Bill "Newkirk"
The lower level track should be under the south bound local track. I don't know if that answers your question. BTW - there is no northbound lower level platform and track.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
The Skell Sez: GET OFF OF MY TRAIN!!!!!!
GHOST: R40 #4209; R38 #4138
wayne
I love that!....."MY TRAAAAAAAAAAAAIN!!!!!!!! GET OFF MY TRAIN!!!!!"
Not to mention all the scenes at Myrtle-Broadway both on the platform where Patrick Swayze gets off a J train (with the Myrtle sign in clear view, and under the el where the demons come and get "Willy Lopez". BTW, Woopie Goldberg's forune telling stor and "Willy Lopez's" apartment seem to have been filmed right near the Myrtle station because I recognized that abandoned building at the Myrtle station in the backround.
That movie is high on the list of worth-while watching subway movies.
Obviously, that shot was taken after the crackheads stripped the escalator parts to support their habits !!
Bill "Newkirk"
And guess what was the letter shown on that rollsign in the same movie too? Hint, at that time this was MY favorite subway line.
The reason they throw these sets together is because nobody other than ourselves will notice the difference. :)
There's a subway car in the picture?
Even "Weird Al" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, Bill, that statement only confirms two things: that you're not blind, AND that you have good taste being an obvious 'legs man'. LOL! :)
Whether she is real or computer generated, her legs have to be better looking than Sea Beach Fred's !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
MAJOR leg action going on front lower left... ay chihuahua!!!
MAJOR leg action going on front lower left... ay chihuahua!!!
that a museum car !
i was thinking of the one R21 that was used for the mvie money train !
sorry !
src="http://community.webshots.com/sym/image4/6/88/16/56968816DDRZCB_ph.jpg">
The R62A's have been on the 7 for quite a time now. I remember the hubbub when they first arrived and everyone was all over 'em. Now look: no one cares...until new rolling stock hits the 7.
I think the trains out of the Southern Division are the most neglected when it comes to scratchitti (I have a hunch I didn't spell this correctly).
I'm also starting to notice this white milky looking markers all over the windows on the "A".
What's your opinion on this?
When the 2/5 line between 149-GC and E180 was closed on weekends until about a month or two ago, the 5 ran 4 equipment -- R-62's and R-33's (I didn't see any R-142A's). And before the R-142 influx, the 5 borrowed one or two sets of R-62A's from the 6 for late night OPTO shuttle service. But last weekend? I can't imagine what an R-62 or R-62A set would have been doing on the 5 -- the only GO-inflicted equipment change that I know of was R-62A's from the 3 running on the 4.
Today I have seen approximately 6 RT's of the M7's today on the Far Rock. Unable to get the times, but they WERE in revenue service. Maybe something happened with a few sets of M1's? Or, Far Rock will see more service (because it goes to Flatbush)? Does anyone know why the LIRR is reluctant to have normal service to Penn?
Today I have seen approximately 6 RT's of the M7's today on the Far Rock. Unable to get the times, but they WERE in revenue service. Maybe something happened with a few sets of M1's? Or, Far Rock will see more service (because it goes to Flatbush)? Does anyone know why the LIRR is reluctant to have normal service to Penn?"
the entire far rock will be M-7 before you know it
nope same service
cause since it is a low usage line, it goes to flatbush, and it just so happens it has gone to flatbush for a long time so you know how the mta is they dont change anything unless it is absolutely nessesary
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
New York City Transit BVE Authority"
Still not enough cars to run 10/12 car consists. Rather than running a couple of full lenght trains, they run more shorter consists to spread them around. They will run longer trains when more cars arrive, be patient.
I hear some retired M-1's have been loaded on those long trailers and headed to Mexico as per an agreement with Bombardier. We think it may have something to due with scrapping them outside the U.S. due to the asbestos fiasco.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Those who toured LIRR facilities and reported back here said the same a while back. They also reported, IIRC, that the M-7 performance in the snow was relatively good (when the relative is the M-1, I figure it has to be good). Try searching for 'LIRR' over the past 3 months to find the posts.
In the case of the Hempstead branch, I think that it's really a passenger routing issue. On the off-peak and weekend Hempstead trains I have been on, there has always been a sizeable number of people travelling between Flatbush/Nostrand and Hollis/Queens Village/Hempstead.
I'd love to see the numbers, but based on my observations while killing far too much time on weekends at Flatbush/Atlantic, I suspect that the stations east of Jamaica that get the most ridership from Flatbush during off-peak hours are (not in order) Hollis/Queens Village, Locust Manor/Laurelton/Rosedale and Hempstead.
I believe this is why Far Rock and Hempstead end up being the best off-peak choices for Flatbush.
CG
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/NJTransitNYC
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
They are the bottom 16 photos on Webshots Southeast PA, South Jersey page.
Seriously, thanks for sharing Bob.
Oh man that is so kewl ! Now the TA can run trains from Whitehall St, crossover at Queensboro Plaza and out to Main St. Flushing !! No more changing at QBP on those frigid windy days ! Thanks Train Dewd !
Bill "Newkirk"
Toilet paper ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Soft footwear such as cloth sneakers or even tennis shoes can present the same problem. And those are not worn only by "certain immigrant groups."
There are a few places where that would not work - for example, in stations with two island platforms and a center track - such as on the Flushing Line, or if the train were to make a non-revenue move on the Jerome Av line.
Correct me if I have not described it correctly.
I assume it is Toronto?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-Robert King
R-32 F
R-46 F
R-44 A
R-32 F
R-44 A
R-32 C
(plus two E's on the local track)
Had something gone wrong in Brooklyn or was this just the C acting as always?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Absolutely. But I just pointed that out to show that the C's runtime during rush hour sucks and that's why you'll see at least 2 E's for every C.
Apparently, the A, the B, and the E are much more important lines since they always get the right of way. Heck, even the F running on the C line during a G.O. gets the right of way.
In fact, why was the C running express all the way from Canal to 168th? The only work I saw was on the (upper level) local track at 145th, and there may have been more work between there and 168th. I didn't see anything going on near 50th, and the rest of the way the local track was covered by the E and D. Would it have been so difficult to run the C local to 125th and only then cross to the express track?
At least it was running. Next weekend it won't be, and with the GO on the E, it looks like 50th, 23rd, and possibly Spring will be closed entirely! That must be a coordination error.
I still don't see why priorities are assigned to lines. Whichever train was scheduled to go first should go first. Barring that, the line that's generally less crowded should get priority, in an attempt to subliminally coax passengers off of the more crowded one (think of the E and V at Queens Plaza).
The C was running local up to 125th Street for the past two weeks then was crossed over to run express to 168th. My only guess is that has to do with the switching at 125th. It's easier to bring the D in on the local at 59th, have it run on 2 track to 135th, then run it downstairs to the Bronx and keep the A and C strictly on 4 track. If you noticed, the lineup was already set for the D to go down the Concourse after 135th. There was a lot of bottlenecking at 125th when the C was running local.
I agree that whoever is supposed to go first should go first, but it doesn't go like that. Until people start complaining by calling and writing letters, the service on the C line will not improve. It will, in fact, get worse.
IMO, supplement schedules should be posted on the web alongside service advisories. They don't have to be fancy PDF's -- a quick-and-dirty table generated automatically would be fine (perhaps even preferable, since it would be more accurate).
Then the public would know when to complain -- and, more important, when to expect a train. On many weekends I've waited longer than the scheduled headway for a C, but I thought I was just getting the usual C treatment.
(It's funny. On weekdays, if I want a B, a C invariably comes first. On weekends, when the B doesn't run, the C takes its sweet time to show up.)
It's one thing for it to happen occasionally. It's another for it to happen on the regular. For anyone to see C trains coming in 15 minutes apart almost every day and say, "Oh, it's just acting the way it normally does" is just plain unacceptable. What other line do you see that happening on? On what other line do you see the performance that bad and nobody says a blessed thing about it? None. Picture this happening on the E. Or the F. Or the A. Or the 4. Or the 6. Or the 1. You probably can't because it's unimaginable. People would open their mouths and complain, and something would get done.
The fact is, because nobody says anything and just accepts lousy service and says, "It's just the C", proves that people don't care. And if the people don't care, why should the TA?
The 1/9 used to often have 10-minute-plus gaps in the afternoon rush, and the first train after the gap would run express. I guess enough people complained that, after at least ten years of that nonsense (I distinctly remember putting up with it every day in the summer of 1992 -- or was it 1991?), it was miraculously fixed on 9/15/02. I still don't know what was changed but now the line runs like clockwork -- only once have I had to wait unacceptably long, and there had obviously been a big problem further up the line because the gap was about 30 minutes just after 9 in the morning on a weekday (though I still can't understand why the T/D didn't send one or two expresses down the local track to ease the load south of 96th).
Is it really too much to ask that the same be done for the C?
However, I still don't feel it justifies running C trains at 10- to 12-minute intervals. And even if ridership dictates that 12-minute intervals are sufficent, common sense would dictate that when a C does stop at 50th Street southbound, it should automatically get the right of way. Why hold the train up that's 12 minutes behind the previous C an additional 2 to 3 minutes to cross an E or two in front of it? Are there more people going to World Trade than there are people going to Brooklyn?
I get asked all the time, "What took so long?" What am I supposed to say?
Like any other local (including the V), the C often gets quite crowded. Of course, it won't be terribly crowded leaving an express station on an inbound run, since almost everyone boarding an inbound train at an express station wants an express. But closer to (and within) the CBD, most locals are quite crowded.
On weekends, when total carrying capacity is usually not a major concern, local service is more important than express service. Anyone can take a local -- it just takes a bit longer to travel long distances. Not anyone can take an express. A passenger waiting at a local station is stuck there until a local shows up.
As for weekend GO's, I'm still curious: what will be stopping at 50th and 23rd this coming weekend? The A is running express, the C isn't running at all, and the E is diverted to 6th Avenue (or Broadway at night).
Also, I doubt many people bother to get off the local and wait for an express if they're traveling not north of 116th and not south of Franklin -- anyone who does is a downright idiot.
The advisory says A will run local Euclid-Hoyt and 145-168 and the D local from 59-125. Obviously someone didn't realize ther E wasn't running on 8th Ave and would leave no local Canal-59.
I noted this in an earler post about the late night E train diversion on the R line on weekends and how it gets screwed by the Manhattan-Bound R and W line G.O. over the bridge (in this case, it's only the W line running during these times.)
If the E line is diverted to Whitehall, how will it affect customers from Whitehall to City Hall? Do they have to walk to the nearest 4 line station, or could they take the N/B E train? Or will they waste their time by taking the downtown W train to Dekalb, and then double back on a W or Q train over the bridge? Are those stations "affected" by the R/W lines G.O. will open back up for a few hours at night? (Simple: "unlock: the turnstiles from the S/A's computer)
Much like telling customers in last weekends W line G.O. (Coney Island bound via. Sea Beach, shades of the NX), the last paragraph told riders in order to access W line stations, take the W to NEW UTRECHT or Stillwell, then double back. Troubling thing is New Utrecht is a local stop (the trains ran express according to the poster) and there are no switches from express to local until Kings Highway.
If the D runs to WTC, that's a pretty major service change of its own, and it leaves 7th Avenue unserved (unless the D runs one way via 6th and one way via 8th, which might not be a bad idea).
And this all has to mesh with the other GO on the A, the one on the Liberty el (although that one was apparently cancelled this past weekend, so it may be cancelled again).
The C train I was on wasn't very crowded (my car had most of its seats filled but not many standees), but it was running express directly behind two A's also running express. The D local it didn't quite connect with at Columbus Circle was appreciably crowded -- not crush loaded, but much more crowded than the average weekend B Division train (and this was after many of those D passengers got off to transfer to the express). When the D runs express on weekends (as it usually does), I rarely see more than a few people in each car.
I dont see a way to get rid of one of these lines though. At least not without headache to riders.
CG
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Good night Vlad !
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
it was Bondo iwas at 86st this afernoon looking from the bridge at the CI comlex When a Slant Pulled up i did no look at the number but I saw where the roof was reinforced with rivets and a sheet of steel I’ve seen “BONDO” covering 6 rivets in a row! An unpleasant sight!
#3 West End Jeff
I had experience in England of mending small holes in auto bodies with glass fiber mats in an epoxy resin. Sand down smooth and then paint and the hole disappeared completely!
John
hahahahaha !
Vlad
just give me your email !
Thanks Vlad
Am wondering where it came from since it was glass & was mostly covered by graffitti, not that I'm looking this gift horse in the mouth mind you.
I can offer four guesses :)
Or you can do it the way gearheads do on musclecars, cut out the bad section and weld in a section on clean metal. Better than trying to cover up existing rust.
Question: I know that SOAC was an experiment, however what cities used the design and technology of the SOAC's in use today (aside from a design similar to the BART cars in San Francisco?) Do the R142(a)/R143 cars embed some of the components of the 3 decade old SOAC cars?
thats what i meant in the firs place and sorry for the Confusion
The SOAC subway cars never bit the dust with the scappers torch and
are on display at the "Seashore Trolley Museum", Kennenbunkport, Maine.
So the "SOAC" live on as "SOAC". >GG<
8-) Sparky
Thanks. Like many on this board, which I hope I don't bore...you follow up my lead in that highlight's the subject. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Please let me know if this picture doesn't come out. I'll try from another source.
Thank you.
GloboWrapCorp
Feel USED? :)
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
Don't try to ask me what yard it is in, as I did not get to ask him
what yard it was in before he had to close the cab door as it was
time to depart AVE X.
Daniel
Sorry to break it to you.... THE R-160 HAS NOT BEEN BUILT YET
-Mark
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Thanks
oz12
oz12"
LOL, No Problem.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Greatly Appreciated!
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I found out that the former token booths will not sell a single ride card. The customer has to buy a minimum $3 card or go to the MVM.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/14/nyregion/14TOKE.html?tntemail1
I give this a couple of days before all hell breaks loose and it is revealed how many people have been jumping the turnstiles instead of waiting on line at the machine.
Great customer service MTA!!
Maybe so... but a TOKEN would not have helped you either.
Go ahead.... SPLURGE, and buy a $20. card.
Elias
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
It's not so odd. Consider the suburbanite who comes into Penn Station or Grand Central maybe once a year and takes one round-trip on the subway.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I'm not going to get into the token thing, but maybe for many tourists there's no money to be saved. If you're here from say Europe, when will be the next time you'll be here? Unless you plan on travelling a lot in the subway, even a $10 card may be impractical. And some tourists seem to prefer travelling by cab except for the occaisonal train ride.
Save money? Ha! How many do you see take a CAB from Manhattan to LGA or JFK? I'm not saying most, but there are a good amount.
What was the scam?
Half a block later, my brain was reengaged and I turned around to see what he was up to. He was at the top of the staircase to the subway, holding the same conversation with someone else. I nipped that attempt in the bud, and ran into him a few minutes later at the opposite token (er, station) booth buying a MetroCard with my $20, at which point I called the cops, but he fled on the next downtown train. I waited 20 minutes and gave up on them.
I've lived in Flatbush all my life, been there, seen that! Some street knowledge is important in order to avoid falling into their prey.
Saturday, after taking the GRE, on my way to observe the L train G.O. (what I saw is on BusTalk), a woman came up to me trying this same scam. She deliberately opened up her coat to expose her fake chest, cleavage line and all. I tried to brush that woman away, but you know when you have a pest on your tail 24/7? That's what it felt like. I wonder if it was the now departed N_Slant_40, lol.
Certain slanted Subtalkers aren't nearly as lucky.
I'm just glad I awakened somebody else's brain.
It's probably just as well you left after 20 minutes. It's doubtful that the cops could have done anything, and they probably would have been annoyed with you for wasting their time.
Reporting a crime to a police officer is never a waste of their time. They may be responding to an emergency and unable to take a report, but that's a different issue.
Part of the success in keeping down serious crime is that the police no longer ignore minor offenses. This helps keep the murder and robbery rates down, because bad guys are sufficiently concerned about being arrested for urinating in public or jumping a turnstile that they are less likely to carry a gun (that would land them a sizeable prison term if they were searched after a minor misdeed).
Does anyone remember about 10-15 yrs ago the young kid with no shirt on begging at Pennsylvania & Atlantic making believe he was deaf? He used to yell "hungry, hungry". Well he had perfect hearing and was a crack head named Bernard. He actually used to break into the green traffic light boxes on the corner and take out the fuse so the light wouldn't work, just to build up bumper to bumper traffic so he had more time to beg!!! We arrested him a number of times for breaking the traffic lights.
In Queens we had Gypsies charging elderly people thousands of dollars for unneeded roofing jobs. Another thing would be a Gypsy with a kid begging elderly to get a glass of water for their kid. When the elderly would go into the kitchen with the two to get the water a third person would sneak in the house and burglarize the bedroom.
And I'm sure everyone knows the old pocketbook switch or the variation, the handkerchief switch.
Suburban variation: a man knocks on the door of a house with a somewhat worn-looking driveway in the late afternoon. He tells the homeowner that his crew just finished putting sealant on a driveway in the area and has some materials left. Because the sealant will harden by the next day, he has to use it up this evening, and says he'll do the job at a bargain rate. The homeowner agrees and pays. The "sealant" put on the driveway turns out to be used motor oil.
The laws should be toughened to punnish repeat offenders.
Just as the fine for moving violations esculates for repeat offenders, so should the fine for illegally selling fares
Vandalization of fare control infrastructure should be a felony punishable by a steep fine
The penalty for illegally selling fares should carry steep fines for repeat offenders including a ban from NYCT ifrastructure after 3 offenses
3 strikes and your out.
From what I have read on this boars, Station Agents appear to have no interest in enforcing laws in the fare control area's they work in. Another reason why they should be illminated all together.
Kinda reminds me of something that happened a while ago. One P.O. came up to a S/A and told that Clerk not to waste the time of the Officer calling in these Swipers. Isn't that their job to stop a crime no matter how petty it may be? Also, NYC Transit doesn't prosecute these people (more like a slap on the wrist), so they go back to doing the same old crap.
So when some obsessed idiot comes in here who has all the facts and says Clerks are useless, I point you in the direction of the Police and NYC Transit.
-Stef
S/A are not needed with the Advent of MVM's and third party metrocard resellers.
If there are no S/A more riders will choose to buy there cards off property the same way bus riders make sure they have the correct fare.
Riders will buy more per transaction to avoid possible MVM outages.
It is a scientific fact that has been proved over and over that people change there purchace/driving behavior when the conditions in front of them change.
Two much traffic on the roadway durring rush hour
Build more roads = Attract more riders
Restrict the number of lanes or build no new lanes = Riders take mass transit because the option becomes more appealing
Close all tooken booths = riders buy more at a time, make sure they have a backup card(riders in former two fare zones quickly addopted this with metrocard, buy metrocard at there local store which leads to the stores stocking more metrocards and making additional income from riders buying more items.
This stupid rule of minimums used to be in force on the Paris metro. Then they had the strike of armed car drivers who refused to deliver currency to banks. They quickly discovered that stupid rule made no sense and now you can use your credit cards on the RER for as little as €1. The same thing is true in London. You can use your credit cards in the machines for whatever amount you like.
Please don't give me that bs about use of a credit card costing them money. You pay the same percentage for use of a credit card whether it is for 50 cents or $500,000. Don't also give me that nonsense about credit card transactions taking more time. How many times have I been at a grocery check out counter when some damn fool with a bill of $6.29 gives the clerk the $6 and starts counting in his or her purse to come up with the 29 cents and then seeing they didn't have enough change, giving the clerk another $1 bill. Compare that with the time it takes to swipe your card and complete the transaction. Same thing is true at the metrocard machines...it takes a shorter period of time to dip your card then it does to count out the change. And then of course there is the problem of dealing with all that cash.
With the elimination of the token, it is about time the MTA begain obeying its contractural obligations and allowing you to use your credit card for any transaction at the Metrocard Vending Machines.
I believe the usual arrangement is for the vendor to pay a fixed percent plus a per-transaction fee to the bank. That's why many vendors request or insist (usually in violation of the contract but sometimes in compliance) that small transactions be paid in cash. Imagine being paid $1 by credit card and having to pay the bank $2 to process that charge.
In today's competitive banking industry even small vendors are able to get that done - not necessarily on as favorable terms as a large vendor, but most banks would rather negotiate terms than lose a customer.
I believe the usual arrangement is for the vendor to pay a fixed percent plus a per-transaction fee to the bank.
You are correct. The last vendor agreement signed by the hobby shop I was involved with for many years included a per-transaction fee of 40¢ on sales and 65¢ on credits, plus a percentage. This was for Visa and MasterCard; we chose not to deal with Discover or Amex because their percentages were approximately double that of Visa/MC, and while Discover made up for that to some extent by not charging quite as high a fee, Amex's fees were higher as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I recall a conversation I once had with the cashier at a supermarket as I was charging a very small purchase ($1.50 or so). She told me that the store permitted charges for purchases of $1 and up even though the store was charged $3 per transaction. Of course, there's a good chance that she didn't know what she was talking about, but I could imagine that the per-transaction charge is high at a supermarket that (by design) doesn't verify signatures, with the greater risk of successful chargebacks. Hmmm, neither does NYCT!
Can anyone out there confirm or deny this? If you can put any amount on a used card, all you have to do is pick up a used card and add $1.50 (later $2) to it for a single fare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arti
It's like having foamers run the subway. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You don't have to miss it
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After the fare changes in May, all that loose change on existing pay-per-ride MetroCards will amount to a one-shot infusion of cash for the MTA. Lots of people will permanently have odd dollar amounts carried over to new MetroCards unless they can add an odd dollar amount to make it even or unless one can actually get a refund (options most folks probably won't bother to exercise). In the meantime, as an occasional subway rider, I'm going to try to be zeroed out on May 4 so I can start fresh with multiples of $2.
Got 20 tokens at home, but cannot do anything right now, it is still valid fare media. Anyone else have same idea as mine?
Yea it still is !
How about now!
Check out these auctions, the first one is already up to $14.53!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2169874442&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170132335&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170262198&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170243483&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170206495&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170197895&category=4152
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2170169030&category=4152
Its like when I was working at a bank people were going nuts over the state qtrs and gold dollars. Its probably going to be a while before thet gain any valu.
In the meantime I won't be paying more than $1.50 for a token :)
I don't know if Shirley Bassey is alive today, but she probably might not mind belting out a new song "GOLDENDOLLAR".
But what I like doing is getting a bunch of $2 bills from the bank, then go around spending those.
Do most/all banks have $2 bills on hand?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Would this be based on the song MAX POWER?
Max Power
he's the man with the name
you want
to touch
But you mustn't touch!
His name sounds good in your ear
but when you hear it
you mustn't fear!
Because his name
can be said
by anyone!
The situation on ebay is going to be short lived. There is already a glut of the tokens available for auction.
Within 6 months I predict that the sellers won't even be able to get face value for them.
You're being generous; I give it a couple of days. Remember when the "Chambers St-World Trade Center (1)(2)(3)(9)" signs from the Transit Museum were selling for hundreds? I put one up about a week later and got $25 for it.
In the meantime, since I missed out on hoarding from token booths in the last few days, I have to stop off at Roosevelt Island tomorrow...
Check out how many tokens are on the category list now.
Wonder how many of them will acually sell?
"Collector's" Metrocards, ironically, seem to do much better.
No in russia old moscow subway/metro tokens from the fiftees and till late eightees are worth a lot on the collectors market !
I hope the same will happen to NYC Subway tokens !
new series every half a mounth !
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The N_Slant_40 program crashed!
This was brought about by one day last week where I noticed 4 people posted 25% of the messages (that was over 200 in a 800-post day). While I appreciate their enthusiasm I notice that each of the four of them had been involved in several bouts of flaming and off-topic-ness in the past few days. I hope this system will encourage them to think twice before posting and help this board remain a civil place.
WOW !
Vlad
Also before i forget Sorry and i had my sleep !
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
well there is AOHell ! LOL
: ) Elias
How about (just kidding here) only 1 per day that has more than 6 capital letters in a row?
Anyway, while it has been shown for some time that the SubTalk Lorentz curve has been significantly skewed, an post cap is probably not the more effective way to redistribute posting wealth. A better idea would be a posting tax that kicked in after maybe 50 posts a day. At the end of the month the super high volume posters would be solicited with donations or face a banning from SubTalk. If your goal was a true redistrabution of posts you could then invest the revenue in programmes that supported low volume posters like templates or forms and made posting easier.
And don't fool yourself, there's no "revenue" from Subtalk. For a long time, EVERYONE has been solicited for donations. I got $9 in donations last month. Do you think the super high volume posters are going to come up with the other $241/month it costs me to keep this thing online? Hahahahahahhahahahhahaha.
How about make subtalk a pay service ?
Vlad
I suppose it's the lowest cost (in terms of your time) way to encourage a little order.
Of course, I'm reminded of one of my first school trips to the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens when I was a kid. The garden lady was explaining to us that the garden looked so pretty because they never allowed evience of vandalism to remain for even an hour. If they found a broken branch or trampled flower bed, it was pruned or fixed as soon as it was discovered.
That would have been good advice for the City as we went into the '70s. Too bad it's not practical for most newsgroups and bulletin boards.
If it was my full time paid job, you can be assured that's how it would be run.
-Dave
Personally, I think there's going to have to be a big shakeout in free content. People have come to accept that everything on the web is free, but I doubt many people are really aware that even people like me, who can only put up a small fraction of the content you do, can only do even that much because what we provide is an adjunct to our other work or business, and/or comes out of our free time and own pockets.
I've already seen some sites go under because the props died, lost their server access, or just couldn't afford the time and expense any more.
Geez, I think twenty-five is enough!!!! Maybe some of these people using the board as e-mail might think before doing so.
Now for your next project, a “quality filter”?! :-)
Am I one of these 4? I did kinda go crazy last night. Not really because of the flaming, but it's just funny to watch N_slant going crazy!
If you dont wanna post it here, can u e-mail me? (If i was indeed one of those 4)
An excellent idea, but it might lead to threadjacking.
Tom
Flagging the Right Culprit
Are you being sarcastic or just naive? Assigning more work to a crew than can be done following all safety procedures, and looking the other way when they are not followed is not unusual. When something happens, the supervisor is the scapegoat when the managers higher up pull out all the written safety rules and memos.
Virtually all big business will lobby against any safety legislation on the basis that it is not necessary and will increase costs. If they move a manufacturing operation to a third world country, they will not provide their workers the same safety devices that have been proven useful in the United States.
Tom
He's leading the team with a .167 average!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think about those lost in 911, my life, what I've learned and lost, what goes on in TA and my future at my age. Two emails from a certain individual: 'GET REAL, PETER' do not recognise what I do or why. There is a handful of us who go home everyday knowing we did our work well to the best of our abilities. Most come from the 09/17/2001 class that I know of. it is a matter of age. CI peter
Thew new century sucks !
The new century sucks !
Lil Brightliners? More like Lil Rustbuckets.
back when they were new !
Lil Brightliners? More like Lil Rustbuckets.
ahahahahahahahahhahahah !!!!!!!!!!
Good one !
Now, if you hate the modern era so much, WHY ARE YOU USING A COMPUTER? Oh, I forgot, you ARE a computer. Strange for a computer to hate the era of technology without which it couldn't exist. I guess those programmers really have a strange sense of humor.
Anyway, we're getting the 10:45 AM (I think) non-Acela Amtrak out of Penn on Monday the 21st. I've never taken Amtrak out of the Penn in that direction, so it should be interesting to compare our speed to that of the NJT Arrows on the speedway from New Brunswick to Princeton Junction. I've never ridden south of Wilmington at all, haven't seen the Baltimore area since 1977 (driven through without stopping) and haven't set foot in DC since 1971, at the age of 11. Unlike the trips we took the previous two Easters to Toronto and Philadelphia- two cities I'm familiar with- I'm as much a neophyte and my wife and son, and hence can't be the confident tour guide.
Our hotel is at Dupont Circle, an easy trip on the Red Line from Union Station. We'll be there all of Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and return Friday. From what I can see on the WMATA website, it's only worth getting a daily $5.00 pass if we're getting on and off more than four times, with the off-peak fare of $1.10. I'm still trying to get a fix on the fare zones. It doesn't look like it costs any extra to cross the Potomac to get to the Pentagon (if they let us near it) and Arlington Cemetery.
Dunno if I'll get to do any railfanning in my spare time. I may meet with resistance from the family unit, especially since it's a new city for all of us. From what I hear, the system is generally safe except in the SE quadrant across the river by RFK. As far as dining out, they say Georgetown is safe in the evening. It looks like the Foggy Bottom station serves that area.
Does anybody have any insights, advice or suggestions? I did meet M4 last January on a Subtalk trip. He was very helpful and informative. If only I could remember anything-
Two things to look forward to: (a) No car, rental or otherwise; and (b) neither of us has ANY FAMILY in the area!!
Secondly, the entire system is safe, regardless of what part of town your in----All stations have station managers w/ cameras everywhere. Now, I'm not saying there isn't any crime outside the stations--but wonce you're in the system, your safe--in all my years, I've never felt the least bit uneasy......As for traveling to Virginia--the fare doesn't change just because you're crossing state lines---
Now, when it comes to dining out, if you like the Hard Rock Cafe and things like that, the area around the Metro Center and Gallery Place stations is rather trendy---also, the Connecticut Avenue corridor (embassy row) is really popular, and, as you mentioned, Georgetown. The only downside to Georgetown is that the Metro doesn't go there, and it IS quite a hike from the Foggy Bottom station---Personally, if I was going to G-town and had only Metrorail to survive on, my instinct would be for me to get off at the Rosslyn station in Virginia and walk across the Key bridge.
Now for seeing the sites---Closest to the Smithsonian museums---well, that is a matter of opinion--For the Smithsonian Castle, the Smithsonian station, for the Natural History and American History museums, I always found a closer walk from Federal Triangle and for the Air & Space Musuem, the L'enfent Plaza station is closest--use the Maryland Avenue entrance/exit. For the minuments--the Capitol is closest to Capitol south, the Washington Monument is closest none, although I'd probably get off at Smithsonian--as for the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial & Lincoln Memorial---it's a hike from any station...when I take the kids, I'll start off at the Smithsonian Staion--hit a couple museums, and work my way west, passing the Monument, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the Lincoln Memorial, then I'll walk across the Arlington Memorial Brisge (the one you see in the movies leading directly to the Lincoln memorial) and then we'll get back on the Metro at Arlington Cemetary--plus, the kids always like the planes overhead going in and out of National Airport.
Another insider tip, if you're planning on going to the National Zoo, get off at Cleveland Park and walk south, the entrance to the zoo is 100 feet closr to Cleveland Park than Woodley Park--Connecticut Avenue is one giant hill and with getting off at Cleveland Park, you'll be walking down-hill to the zoo, then, when you're ready to leave the zoo, continue walking downhill to the Woodley Park Station--it's a lot easier on the feet this way, plus if thekids are hungry, there's a Mcdonalds just outside the Woodley Park Zoo entrance.
Anyhow, if you find that you have any specific questions in regards to "where to take the kids" feel free to e-mail me.
Mark
As one that use to live at 22nd Street and Massachusetts Avenue I can vouch to the convince of using the G2 to get to Georgetown.
Michael
Washington, DC
Your train leaves @ 10:35 #95 RESERVED TRAIN, arrives DC at 2 p.m. Wash DC tourist web page is www.washington.org. Metro has an all-day bus pass for $2.50 which you buy on the bus.
Besides the museums, consider walking part of the C&O Canal which runs 184.5 miles to Cumberland, MD. (I said PART of the Canal.) Boat rides can be found at http://www.nps.gov/choh/co_julin.htm. You ride through one of the locks. (Sorry no bagels. This isn't New York). Also, you can take Tourmobile at www.tourmobile.com around Washington with on and off priviliges. Consider the National Zoo, if all the animals haven't died by the time you arrive.
Railfanning on Metrorail ISN'T as exciting as New York's system. There are only 3 signals, Clear, flashing, and red. Flashing means the signal is naked! Just kidding. Flashing means a switch is set for reverse and the train will cross over.
Enjoy your trip. You'll be here before the sultry sun bears down on Washington and the humidity is a killer.
Michael
Washington, DC
Formerly NY
Michael
Wash, DC
--Mark
When you first enter the Metro, get enough bus transfers for everyone in your party to have one from the little dispenser on the mezzanine. Then, take a train to Farragut North (this is always how I did it). Exit at K street, walk down 17th Street, passing Farragut Square on your left. At the corner of I and 17th, the 30 32 34 35 36 Metrobuses stop every ten minutes. With your tranfer, the fare to Georgetown is 25 cents per person. These bus routes will take you directly to Georgetown in about 5 minutes, going down M street, and up Wisconsin Av...the two main drags. To return, it's $1.10 exact change per person.
Georgetown and Dupont Circle are extremely safe neighborhoods, and are more crowded during the evening than during the day. You should be really safe at all hours as long as you stay west of 15th and south of Massachusetts Av, NW. That's a good rule for out-of-towners to follow. Capitol Hill is also safe until about 15th Street NE/SE. And stay west of the Anacostia at all times. If you are west of Rock Creek Park, you will be perfectly safe.
If you want railfanning suggestions, my favorite rides are:
Red to Shady Grove (or at least to Grosvenor)
Orange to Vienna
Let me know if you want more ideas.
Might be easier to get from DuPont Circle to Georgetown on those blue buses that run ebtween the two areas, I can't recall their name but they run frequently from DuPont Circle. The WMATA Rail map is NOT to scale!
Ironically, DC's taxis do just the opposite!
Here's one suggestion that will combine railfanning with "malling." From DuPont take the Red Line to Metro Center, a station worth seeing if only for its stunning high celinged architecture. Then transfer to the Orange Line going towards Vienna. Stay on the train all the way to Vienna (about a half hour) if only to see it race the cars along I-66 for the last four stops. At Vienna don't exit (there's really nothing in the vicinity) but take the train back towards DC, this time getting off at Rosslyn. This is a unique two level station. Go to the opposite level and take a Blue Line train to Pentagon City (about 2 or 3 stops). There is a nice upscale mall connected directly to the station, that has shops and restaurants galore to keep everyone happy. On the adjacent streets there are more stores and restaurants. Return to DC via the same route. And remember that your $5 day pass is good all day after 930 AM, including the PM peak when the one way fare is higher than $1.10.
And in DC, the Smithsonian Air & Space and American History and Technology museums are free and excellent, but unfortunately will be crowded during vacation week. Closest stop for the History Museum is not Smithsonian but Federal Triangle, which is across the street from another nice food court complex in the Old Post Office Tower at 13th and Pennsylvania Ave. The History Museum has a nice railroad and automotive section adjacent to each other.
Georgetown, as one poster noted, is not reachable by Metrorail directly.
Have a nice trip.
There doesn't appear to be any one-day $5 pass that covers both subway AND bus in the style of NYC's Funpass- just separate ones for the subway and bus. Since I don't anticipate doing any heavy-duty railfanning (if I were by myself, that would be a DIFFERENT story!), and we'll probably stay in one general area for each of the three full days, it's probably just easier to pay the $1.10 base fare each time. With the 25-cent bus transfer, this makes the most sense.
We'll probably spend a lot of time in the various museums, especially Air & Space. The Zoo, the different monuments, the White House and Capital are priorities. I know you can't go in the Capital anymore without written approval from a local politician. I'm not sure about the White House and the Washington Monument. Supposedly the Bureau of Engraving is off-limits. Of course, we'll have to go to Pentagon City so Rob can add Virginia to his collection of states. It's up to four at the moment. If we can somehow step onto the Amtrak platforms for a second while stopping at Wilmington and Baltimore, that'll add two more. (I've set foot in 35 states, for whatever that's worth!)
It's amusing how every American city is said to have a place that sells 'New York-style' bagels. Despite my Jewish lineage (and because I'm generally nonobservant), I just DON'T do a Homer Simpson/doughnut-like drooling trance over bagels. Now if you want to excite me, to find a place that has New York-style pizza that drips a pint of hot oil when you fold a slice- or even better, a White Castle- while traveling WOULD excite me.
BTW, what hotel are y'all staying at? Since I'm in the 2100 block of P (~3 blocks west of Dupont Circle), maybe we can find a few free minutes and grab a beer or something nearby.
Out of curiousity, my brother went to Douglas MacArthur High School with a Howard Fein, who lived in Seaford. I was wondering if that's you.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
No, I'm a different Howard Fein who grew up in Whitestone, Queens and graduated Bayside HS in 1977. I never realized how many people there could be with the same first and last name till I checked out various Internet phone directories and anybirthday.com. There's also another Howard Fein somewhere who apparently had a very bad credit record, because when I applied for a mortgage some years ago, Chase initially turned me down because they thought I was him. The fact that our dates of birth were eight years apart helped exonerate me. But I still had to write an affadavit that I was not the delinquent Howard Fein, get it notarized and mail it registered and certified to Chase- all with my OWN money.
And I thought Three Stooge jokes were annoying!!
As for the monument, at last check, tickets are handed out at a booth near the base of the monument beginning at, I believe 8:30 am and are on a first come, first serve basis---and I do believe there are a finite number of tickets each day and you can not get them for another day in advance.....It's a pain in the $#% I know.
(1) Then rail and automative exhibits at the Smithsonian's American History museum are closed for renovations till 2004, so don't look for them. The museum is still definitely worth seeing - a very good exhibit about the 9/11 attacks is one highlight.
(2) The Old Post Office food court, which is visited today, is not as good as it used to be - there are fewer food vendors than prior visits. A better bet might be the food court at the Amtrak Uniion Station - obviously a place you will visit anyway. And if you take the Red Line from there towards Glenmont it passes through the Amtrak yard complex north of Union Station. Go 3 stops to Fort Totten, then go downstairs and take the Green Line back to downtown DC. Fort Totten is a unique two level station, that also has Amtrak and MARC trains passing alongside Metro on the upper level.
Have a good trip.
-Dave
Which is why we take measures to keep it (orderly and sane).
If yes you got till sturdat to deal with me !
so be happy !
- latiest
- sturdat
Thanks
Due to a police investigation at Dekalb/Wyckoff Ave station, L train service is suspended in both directions between 8th Avenue, Manhattan and E. Parkway/B'way Jct. Brooklyn.
I don't know how individual cars fared, apart from the lines.
Why was that? Relative security levels at the different yards?
Some of the media, notably the Times, thought that this was a fascinating development and went out of their way to describe the rise of the phenomenon and the "game" gradually spread to the rest of the city.
Only later, when such lions of pop culture as Norman Mailer took up interest did graffiti gain credence as an artistic issue.
--Mark
I'd say the worst case of vandalism had to be the old 2 when it ran out to New Lots. On a good day, that train looked like a work of art. On a bad day, it looked like something out of a horror movie.
wayne
wayne
The M-7 is certainly nice looking; I got my first peak at them last week at Flatbush Ave.! -Nick
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Thank you.
I haven't seen them running on the weekend. But an acquaintance of mine who attended the ERA LIRR Hillside Tour said he rode one that day. I crossed him up on that in disbelief, but he was quite serious. The M-7 he rode was on the Hempstead Branch.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anything?
:-) Andrew
Full length 4 track 2nd Ave Subway from the Bronx to downtown.
Extension of the Hillside Ave IND to Nassau County.
Extend the E train to SE Queens via the LIRR right of way.
Build Elias' Myrtle-Fifth Ave Subway!!!
Build the 63rd St super express as planned.
Construct a four track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
Build a middle track on the Jamaica El from ENY to Archer.
Extend J/Z trains to Belmont Park.
Depending on how much is left, I'd extend the E subway and merge it into the BMT, and I'd extend PATH across lower Manhattan. W
With the last 20 billion I'd build a second train tunnel across the Hudson, replace additional catenary and signals, and enable 150 mph on the NEC between New York and Washington. The Acela would routinely make the trip in under 2 and a half hours, incl. stops.
And I'd turn the unusued LIRR Rockaway branch into parks and bike paths (HAH!)
2. Worth St subway, coming from the E line after Canal st (where bellmouths are today). Runs along Worth st to new underwater tunnel. connects to S 4th st. From there there is a line running SE to Bedford-Nostrand on the G. This line would then continue via crosstown to the LL of Church av. Then it would run south to roughly 59th st and head west to go into Staten Island.
3. Another Branch from Church LL to Bay Ridge LIRR branch, running out to east brooklyn. Perhaps running via new EL at some point to Kings Plz. (yeah, i wanna use the untapped capacity of the Crosstown and Rutgers lines!)
4. Build the Propsed Horace Harding expyway line. (runs east just north of Ditmas Blvd line. Then crosses flushing at about Shea stadium, and runs out northward slightly similar to Port Wash line.) Link it into 2nd av (at about 100th st there would be an East River Crossing).
5. Extend Hillside Line and Fulton El.
Now for stations on the BMT/IND, I would extend each stations for a full length of 700', so the 8 Car Trainsets can fit in (680') and renovate the entire system, the tracks would be much cleaner and all that. Now for the IRT, I would maybe renovate the IRT system so we can have larger trains, because that 8' width ain't working especially in rush hour. And Also I would have a LED system at each station on the ETA of a train arrival, so passengers would not pissed.
And If I had a few extra billion dollars left, I would take over the AirTrain Project and rebuild those So called AirTrains and if Invest more money, I would connect Manhattan and Brooklyn to Staten Island, so that the SIRT can reach the City at approxiamately 80 mph, running SI Ferry out of business, but I wouldn't be surprise if they stayed in business because they need alternative connection to S.I.
Well Thats mines, I probably have more up my sleeve, but those are the main ideas for me, remember Its just a fantasy.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If there's money left over, either 2nd Avenue Subway or a few more tracks on Lexington avenue. Oh, and finally, computerized cars that can run safely and reliably at at least 100 tph.
100 tph? u mean Mph?
It wouldnt be hard to make a version of ST timers on EVERY signal in the system that would allow trains to move at speeds above 50mph regularly.
Furthermore, if trains came every 36 seconds, you wouldn't hold the door, since another train would be coming in less than a minute. If you have some cops stationed and enforcing the no-door-holding policy at trouble spots, like 51st and Lex where there's a constant trickle of people and one always seems to run and hold the doors, it won't be a problem.
It would take a little bit of redesigning the stations, getting rid of some platforms, but it's doable. And that way, we don't have to get rid of the S altogether, which is a very important train.
1)4-track 2nd Avenue Subway from 149 St/3 Av Bronx and 125 St/10 Av Manhattan to Chambers/Centre Streets, Manhattan. Connections would allow the following moves:
2 Av N-63rd W
2 Av S-63rd E
2 Av-MB North Side
2 Av-MB South Side
6 Av Exp Trks-MB North Side
6 Av Lcl Trks-MB South Side
2 Av-Nassau St
6 Av-Nassau St
2)Flatbush Avenue Subway from DeKalb/Flatbush to Gateway Centre Mall.
via Flatbush Av, Ave U, Seaview Av...four tracks, with new yard somewhere in Brooklyn. Two for local, one for express, one for IRT moves from Flatbush Av station to yard.
-Two express tracks deep under Flatbush allowing B/Q to skip DeKalb, 7 Av, and Prospect Pk (relocated, current one is called Empire Blvd).
-Connection to IRT at Flatbush.
-Flying junction between Utica and Ave U allowing for local or express to terminate while other continues, or both terminate, or both continue, without crossing paths.
3)Connect Myrtle Av El stub tracks to Crosstown Line at Bedford-Nostrand. Run a (P) train from Metro Av to Church.
4)Construct third track along Jamaica Ave. For Bway Jct connection, either run the track through the building if possible to relieve the curve, or turn after Jamaica/Penn to meet the existing stub.
5)Extend Archer Avenue. Upper level extended to Rosedale/Nassau border/Green Acres if possible. Lower level extended to 165 St terminal.
6)10th and 11th Avenue Subway. Connects with Flushing line twice to form a P. A cross-bronx line that would junction with the Bway Line at 242 and the Flushing at Main. It would also connect with all IRT lines it crosses, to allow for operational flexibility (i.e. end of isolation on the 7).
7)Third Ave El rebuilt, with branch to Botanic Garden. Local service BG-149, Exp service GHR or 241-149. Weekend shuttle BG-(Fordham or Tremont?)
8)Third track on Myrtle from Central to Wyckoff.
9)Tunnel connecting A)City Hall lower level Bway and B)WTC 8th Ave with C)Court St (either relocate it, or build two outer tracks around it). Run the (C) and (W) through this tunnel, (A) and (E) through Fulton tunnel. A stop at Gov Island is included, in case anything of interest is ever placed out there.
10)JFK Airport Line. Extend stubs of Fulton subway via Pitkin and 135th to airport terminals. One stop to every 1-2 terminals. (A) is full-time through express to Manhattan, (W) runs local at all times and shuttle to Euclid at night. Express trains run loop in one direction, locals run opposite direction, with switches at Federal Circle station.
11)Extend the Hillside Line as neccessary.
12)Build a new yard in Sunnyside.
13)Build a connection between the Canarsie Line and the Fulton Subway, with a (K) running QB-53-8-Houston-Chrystie-WB-Bway-Canarsie-Fulton-Rockaway Pk.
14)Install information screens at all "express" stops, which display scheduled trains and their status at the last timed station (i.e. how late or early), and if the train is scheduled or is an extra, and if it is late enough that will warrant it going express.
15)Extend the Franklin Shuttle's platforms slightly. Extend the line (via el) south/west to run like Culver Shuttle, crossing Ditmas Av and 9 Av stations.
16)Extend Nassau Street relay tracks to Staten Island, follow SIRT ROW and then new subway tunnel under Railroad Ave for short distance before turning and heading back into Brooklyn, feeding into the Sea Beach Express tracks.
17)Install digital rollsigns like the R-32 size, but occupying the whole space, next five stops, next stop's transfers, current time, train status (local/exp, on time/late) and occasionally flashes to service advisory if any apply to this line.
LINE
HOURS OF OPERATION
TERMINALS
STATUS
CROSSINGS
NOTES
A
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
207th Street, JFK Airport
Express 168 St-Federal Circle
Fulton St Tunnel
A
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
207th Street, JFK Airport
Express 168 St-Federal Circle
Fulton St Tunnel
B
6:30 AM-9:30 AM, 3:30 PM-8 PM weekdays
205th Street, Gateway Centre Mall
Express Fordham Rd-145 St to 145 St AM hrs, to Fordham Rd PM hrs Express 145 St-Ave V
Manhattan Bridge
Skips DeKalb Avenue
B
9:30 AM-3:30 PM, 8 PM-Midnight weekdays
205th Street, Kings Plaza
Express 145 St-Ave U
Manhattan Bridge
Skips DeKalb Avenue
B
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
205th Street, Chambers/Centre Streets
Express 34 St-W 4 St
C
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
168th Street, Lefferts Boulevard
Local
Schermerhorn St Tunnel
C
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
Euclid Avenue, Lefferts Boulevard
Local
D
6:30 AM-9:30 AM, 3:30 PM-8 PM weekdays
Bedford Park Boulevard, Coney Island
Express 34 St-W 4 St
Manhattan Bridge
D
9:30 AM-3:30 PM, 8 PM-Midnight weekdays, 6:30 AM-Midnight weekends
145th Street, Coney Island
Express 34 St-W 4 St
Manhattan Bridge
E
6:30 AM-9:30 AM, 3:30 PM-8 PM weekdays
179th Street, Far Rockaway
Exp Far Rockaway-Euclid Av: to Euclid Av AM hours, to Far Rockaway PM hrs; Express Euclid Av-179 Street
E
9:30 AM-3:30 PM weekdays, weekends
179th Street, Far Rockaway
Express 179 St-Euclid Av
53 St Tunnel, Fulton St Tunnel
Extra trains 71 Av-B 103 St
E
8 PM-Midnight weekdays
179th Street, Far Rockaway
Express 71 Av-Euclid Av
53 St Tunnel, Fulton St Tunnel
E
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
179th Street, Far Rockaway
Local
53 St Tunnel, Fulton St Tunnel
F
6 AM-8 PM weekdays, weekends
179th Street, Coney Island or Kings Highway
Express 71 Av-Queensboro Brg Plz, Bergen St-Church Av
53 St Tunnel, Rutgers St Tunnel
F
8 PM-Midnight weekdays
71/Continental Avenues, Church Avenue
Local
53 St Tunnel, Rutgers St Tunnel
G
6 AM-Midnight daily
71/Continental Avenues, Church Avenue
Local
G
Midnight-6 AM daily
71st/Continental Avenues, Smith/9th Streets
Local
H
6 AM-8 PM weekdays, summer weekends
Far Rockaway, Rockaway Park
Local
H
8 PM-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Broad Channel, Rockaway Park
Local
I
6 AM-9 PM weekdays, weekends
8th Avenue/14th Street, Rockaway Parkway
Skip-stop service to 3 Av AM hrs, to E 105 St PM hrs
14 St Tunnel
J
6 AM-Midnight weekdays
Jamaica Center, 86th Street
Local
Williamsburg Bridge, Nassau Street Tunnel, Narrows Tunnel
Extra trains start @ Bway Jct
J
Midnight-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Jamaica Center, Broadway/Myrtle Avenue
Local
K
6 AM-Midnight daily
71/Continental Avenues, Rockaway Park
Local
53 St Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridge
Extra trains 71 Av-Bway Jct, 71 Av-Euclid Av
L
6 AM-3 PM weekdays, 7 AM-5 PM weekends
Rockaway Parkway to 8th Avenue/14th Street
Skip-stop service 3 Av-Bway Jct
14 St Tunnel
Extra trains 8 Av-Bway Jct, 8 Av-E 105 St
L
9 AM-9 PM weekdays, 7:30 AM-5:30 PM weekends
8th Avenue/14th Street to Rockaway Parkway
Skip-stop service 3 Av-Bway Jct
14 St Tunnel
Extra trains 8 Av-Bway Jct, 8 Av-E 105 St
L
All other times
8th Avenue/14th Street, Rockaway Parkway
Local
14 St Tunnel
M
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Metropolitan Avenue, Coney Island
Express Wyckoff Av-Marcy Av to Marcy to Marcy Av AM hrs, to Wyckoff Av PM hrs
Williamsburg Bridge, Montague Street Tunnel
Extra trains Metropolitan Av-Bay 25 St
M
8 PM-Midnight Weekdays, summer weekends
Metropolitan Avenue, Coney Island
Local
Williamsburg Bridge, Montague Street Tunnel
M
Midnight-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Metropolitan Avenue, Broad Street
Local
Williamsburg Bridge
N
24/7
Ditmars Boulevard, Coney Island
Local
60 St Tunnel, Montague Street Tunnel
P
6 AM-8 PM weekdays, weekends
Metropolitan Avenue, Church Avenue
Local
Some trains short-turn @ Myrtle/Wyckoff
Q
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
Jamaica Center, Coney Island
Express Jamaica/Van Wyck-Sheepshead Bay
63 St Tunnel, Manhattan Bridge
Extra trains 71 Av-Brighton Bch; Skips DeKalb Avenue
Q
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
Jamaica Center, Coney Island
Express Jamaica/Van Wyck-Canal St
63 St Tunnel, Manhattan Bridge
R
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
71/Continental Avenues, 95th Street
Local
60 St Tunnel, Montague St Tunnel
R
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
36th Street/4th Avenue, 95th Street
Local
S
24/7
Franklin Avenue/Fulton Street, Prospect Park
Shuttle
T
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
125th Street/2nd Avenue, Coney Island
Express 9 Av-Coney Island to 9 Av/39 St AM hrs, to Coney Island PM hrs Exp 119 St/2 Av-36 St/4 Av
Manhattan Bridge
Skips DeKalb Av
T
9 PM-Midnight weekdays, weekends
125th Street/2nd Avenue, Coney Island
Express 119 St/2 Av-36 St/4 Av
Manhattan Bridge
Skips DeKalb Av
T
Midnight-6 AM daily
36th Street/4th Avenue, Coney Island
Local
U
6 AM-Midnight daily
LaGuardia Airport, Gateway Center Mall
Express 57 St-Houston St
63 St Tunnel, Manhattan Bridge
Extra trains LaGuardia A'prt-Kings Hwy
U
Midnight-6 AM daily
Atlantic Av, Gateway Ctr Mall
Local
V
6 AM-8 PM weekdays
LaGuardia Airport, Coney Island
Express Church Av-Kings Hwy to Church Av AM hrs, to Kings Hwy PM hrs Express Bergen St-Church Av
63 St Tunnel, Rutgers St Tunnel
V
8 PM-Midnight weekdays, weekends
LaGuardia Airport, Coney Island
Express Bergen St-Church Av
63 St Tunnel, Rutgers St Tunnel
V
Midnight-6 AM daily
LaGuardia Airport, Coney Island
Local
63 St Tunnel, Rutgers St Tunnel
W
6:30 AM-9:30 AM, 3:30 PM-8 PM weekdays
Ditmars Boulevard, JFK Airport
Express Astoria Blvd-Queensboro Brg Plz to Queens Plz AM hrs, to Astoria PM hrs Express 57 St-Canal St
60 St Tunnel, Schermerhorn St Tunnel
via JFK Airport Loop
W
9:30 AM-3:30 PM, 8 PM-Midnight weekdays, weekends
City Hall, JFK Airport
Local
Schermerhorn St Tunnel
W
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
Euclid Avenue, JFK Airport
Local
X
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
125th Street/2nd Avenue, Coney Island
Express 59 St-Coney Island to 59 St/4 Av AM hrs, to Coney Island PM hrs Exp 119 St/2 Av-59 St/4 Av, Exp Kings Hwy-Coney Island
Manhattan Bridge
Skips DeKalb Avenue
X
6:30 AM-9:30 AM, 3:30 PM-8 PM weekdays
149th Street/3rd Avenue, Coney Island
Express 59 St-Coney Island to 59 St/4 Av AM hrs, to Coney Island PM hrs Exp 125 St/2 Av-59 St/4 Av, Exp Kings Hwy-Coney Island
3rd Avenue Tunnel, Manhattan Bridge
Skips 119th Street, 97th Street, & DeKalb Avenue
Y
6 AM-Midnight daily
125th Street/2nd Avenue, Chambers/Centre Streets
Local
Y
Midnight-6 AM-daily
125th Street/2nd Avenue, Grand Street/Chrystie Street
Local
Z
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Jamaica Center, Coney Island
Exp Sutphin Blvd-Marcy Av to Marcy Av AM hrs, to Suphtin Blvd PM hrs Express Broad St-Coney Island
Williamsburg Bridge, Nassau St Tunnel, Narrows Tunnel
Z
9 PM-Midnight weekdays
Jamaica Center, Coney Island
Express Broad St-Coney Island
Williamsburg Bridge, Nassau St Tunnel, Narrows Tunnel
Z
Midnight-6 AM daily
Broad Street, 86th Street
Express 4 Av-Kings Highway
Nassau St Tunnel, Narrows Tunnel
1
24/7
242nd Street, South Ferry
Local
Broadway Bridge
2
24/7
241st Street, Flatbush Avenue
Local
Lenox Av Tunnel, Clark St Tunnel
Extra trains 238 St-Franklin Av
3
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
148th Street, New Lots Avenue
Express 96 St-Chambers St
Clark St Tunnel
Extra trains 145 St-New Lots Av
4
6:30 AM-Midnight daily
Woodlawn, Utica Avenue
Express 125 St-Utica Av
Harlem River Tunnel, Joralemon St Tunnel
Extra trains Bedford Pk Blvd-Utica Av
4
Midnight-6:30 AM daily
Woodlawn, Utica Avenue
Express 125 St-Franklin Av
Harlem River Tunnel, Joralemon St Tunnel
5
6 AM-Midnight daily
Dyre Avenue, South Ferry
Express 125 St-Brooklyn Brg
Harlem River Tunnel
Extra trains E 180 St-S Ferry
6
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
177th Street, Brooklyn Bridge
Local
Harlem River Tunnel
7
6 AM-Midnight daily
Main St, Varick/West Sts
Exp West Side Jct-City Hall
Steinway Tunnel
Extra trains 111 St-West St
7
Midnight-6 AM daily
Main St, 35 St/11 Av
Local
Steinway Tunnel
8
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Bronx Botanical Gardens, 149th Street/3rd Avenue
Local
8
9 PM-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Bronx Botanical Gardens, Fordham Road
Shuttle
9
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
242nd Street, South Ferry
Express 242 St-96 St to 96 St AM hrs, to 242 St PM hrs Express 96 St-Chambers St
Broadway Bridge
Stops at Dyckman (200), 168, 137, 72, 42, 34, and 14 Sts
10
6 AM-Midnight daily
Grand Central, Times Square
Shuttle
11
6 AM-Midnight daily
200th Street, West/Varick Sts
Local
11
Midnight-6 AM daily
207th Street, West/Varick Sts
Local
12
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Dyre Avenue, Flatbush Avenue
Express 180 St-149 St/3 Av to 149 St/3 Av AM hrs, to E 180 St PM hrs Express Dyre Av-E 180 St, 96 St-Chambers St
Lenox Av Tunnel, Clark St Tunnel
Extra trains E 180 St-Franklin Av
12
9 PM-Midnight weekdays, 6 AM-Midnight weekends
Dyre Avenue, 3rd Avenue/149th Street
Express Dyre Av-E 180 St
12
Midnight-6 AM daily
Dyre Avenue, East 180th Street
Local
14
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Woodlawn, New Lots Avenue
Express Woodlawn-125 St to 125 St AM hrs, to Woodlawn PM hrs Express 125 St-Utica Av
Harlem River Tunnel, Joralemon St Tunnel
Extra trains Burnside Av-New Lots Av
14
9 PM-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Atlantic Avenue, New Lots Avenue
Express Atlantic Av-Utica Av
15
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
241st Street, Flatbush Avenue
Express 241 St-125 St to 125 St AM hrs, to 241 St PM hrs Express 125 St-Franklin Av
Harlem River Tunnel, Joralemon St Tunnel
Extra trains Gun Hill Rd-Franklin Av
16
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Pelham Bay Park, Brooklyn Bridge
Express 177 St-138 St/3 Av to 138 St/3 Av AM hrs, to 177 St PM hrs
Harlem River Tunnel
16
9 PM-Midnight weekdays, 6 AM-Midnight weekends
Pelham Bay Park, Brooklyn Bridge
Local
Harlem River Tunnel
16
Midnight-6 AM daily
Pelham Bay Park, South Ferry
Local
Harlem River Tunnel
17
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
Main Street, 242nd Street
Exp Willets Pt-Queens Plz to Queens Brg Plz AM hrs, to Willets Pt Blvd PM hrs Express 43 St-125 St Express 125 St-242 St to 125 St AM hrs, to 242 St PM hrs
Steinway Tunnel, Broadway Bridge
17
Select events at Shea Stadium and Jacob Javits Center
Willets Pt Blvd, 42nd Street/10th Avenue
Express Willets Pt Blvd-Queensboro Brg Plz
Steinway Tunnel
18
6 AM-9 PM weekdays
241st Street, 149th Street/3rd Avenue
Express 241 St-149 St/3 Av to 149 St AM hrs, to 241 St PM hrs
18
9 PM-6 AM weekdays, weekends
Gun Hill Road, 149th Street/3rd Avenue
Local
I tried to come up with a table of rollingstock but obviously the current fleet is not enough to support them, and I'm conflicted as to whether I should go with current fleet types or subtract the soon-to-be-retired cars and factor in the soon-to-be-delivered ones. Besides, I haven't even figured out which yards each line will be assigned to (can't have nine routes running daily out of Jamaica, nor four out of VCP) and of the three new yards I've proposed, I have only designed the layout of one (150 St, Bronx) and don't even know exactly where the new Brooklyn yard would go (somewhere near Flatbush/Flatlands).
Creating yards can be a bit tricky because you want ot pick out an area that has lightly been built upon or not built upon at all. This would save you the trouble of picking areas where buildings have to be demolished to accommodate the yard, unless you know that a particular location has buildings that are run down and could be eliminated. This could be problematic because much of the city is built up now and you don't want to place a yard to far away from the mainline, where you have yard leads proceeding for miles and miles. Options that you can use for yards within the five boroughs are a portion of Floyd Bennett Field, Oak Point freight yards, and the site of the former Flushing Airport. The are west of Belmont Park by the LIRR stub tracks is another option. If you chose Oak Point as a subway yard for one of your routes, that location would have to be remodified to accommodate subway tracks and possibly expanded so that the freight operations and handling won't be diminished too much, and the two areas will have to be separated to avoid FRA complications. Staten Island is the only place where there is a good deal of unbuilt land that can accommodate yards, but in the western part of the borough where most of this space is located is marshland. But you only have the J and another service operating to Staten Island, and they don't serve the borough that well only around St. George to Stapleton, so that route may not benefit from having a yard in Staten Island, unless you want to convert the Arlington freight yard at the western end of the North Shore line to a subway yard, and connect to the subway route through St. George. But that would require trains deadheading a good distance across the North Shore line to reach the yard and I don't think you would want that.
These are simply sugggestions and if you made your decisions about the rolling stock and yard placement by the time you read this, then disregard this message. Anyway, good luck on your project and I look forward to reviewing the whole thing when you finish it.
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
These are simply sugggestions and if you made your decisions about the rolling stock and yard placement by the time you read this, then disregard this message. Anyway, good luck on your project and I look forward to reviewing the whole thing when you finish it.
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
These are simply sugggestions and if you made your decisions about the rolling stock and yard placement by the time you read this, then disregard this message. Anyway, good luck on your project and I look forward to reviewing the whole thing when you finish it.
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
Extend the E to Green Acres Mall via LIRR ROW.
Extend the Jamaica Line to Belmont Park via LIRR ROW and put in the middle third express track between B'way Junction and Sutphin Blvd. The local would terminate at Jamaica Ctr, but the express would operate all the way to Belmont Park.
Construct the Queens Blvd. super express as originally planned.
Have 6th Ave-Bway trains tunnel under the Manny B and East River.
Have a full length Second Ave Subway line as follows. Two tracks between Water Street and Grand Street (for the local). Four tracks from Houston to just south of 59 and 6 tracks from just south of 59 St to near 125. The line would have trains coming out of the tunnel under the Manny B as well as off the Willy B. Super express trains would run non-stop between 125 St and 42nd Street. Express would make three express stops in this stretch.
125-2nd Ave would be a two level 8-track station (like W.4 though the mezzanine between the levels would be in sections). The upper level would have the local(s) turn turn onto 125 Street and become a 125 crosstown line to Riverside Park, while the train on the express track would dive under the Harlem River, join the Amtrak/old Westchester ROW until Lafayette Ave and then turn under Lafayette towards E. Tremont Ave. It would make one stop on the ROW stretch connecting with the 6 at 143 St. This route directly serves Southeastern Bronx residents. The lower level of 125 would serve the 3rd Ave Line (Bronx), with the 2nd Ave Super Express being on the express track (3rd Ave Exp) and another express (perhaps a 2nd Ave-B'way Express) being the 3 Ave Local. The super-express would go all the way to Co-op City via 3 Ave, Webster Ave (north of Fordham), Gun Hill and Bartow Ave.
Third Ave Line would follow same route as the old el but would be 4 tracks. After crossing White Plains Rd. (terminal of local) the line would continue as two tracks on Gun Hill then turn onto Bartow and terminate at Bay Plaza (Co-op City).
Turnouts on 2nd Ave line to Queens via 63rd Street, and to the B'way Line and midtown via the same line.
Maximum speed limit on trains would now be 65 mph, with safety measures taken of course.
Keep dreamin' Q Exp, keep dreamin...
1) Eliminate LIRR service on Locust Manor section and extend E trains to Valley Stream( possible extensions to Far Rockaway and Long Beach).
2) Eliminate LIRR service to Port Washington and replace with 7 train.
3) Narrows tunnel to connect with SIR and convert line to subway operation. R trains will run to St George, W trains to Tottenville.
4) Extend Pelham line to serve Orchard Beach and City Island.
5) Extend Dyre Ave line to Co-op City.
6) R160 car order to resemble R27/R30 and R160A to resemble R16 for old times sake. Stainless steel of course but with railfan windows.
7) Reroute Canarsie line to operate to Erskine Street-Gateway Center via Linden Blvd,Pennsylvania Ave and Belt Parkway. East 105 and Rockaway Pkwy will be closed and demolished.
8) Restore K service from Metropolitan Ave to 207 Street via Chrystie St Cut and 6 Ave.
9) Third Ave subway from 149 St-3 Ave to Mount Vernon.
10) Give all TA workers the raise they deserve.
11) Rehab all poor conditioned stations.
12) Extend Van Cortlandt Park line to Yonkers Landing.
13) Entire 2 Ave subway plans dropped and relocated to First Ave and serve East Bronx to City Island, serve Astoria Queens and LaGuardia Airport, East Side via First Ave and connect to Court Street station where Museum is located. Trains Terminate at Euclid Ave, nites/weekends at Hoyt-Schemerhorn.
14) Relocate Transit Museum to Lower level City Hall with connecting tracks to Chambers Street on J,M,Z line.
There's nothing "creative" about how one would spend a blank check. What's more creative is how one would/should set priorities with a limited budget. Part of the public transit industry's problem is that big ticket items can be financed. If the industry had to live within it's farebox, it might be forced to come up with another PCC rather than an R44, SOAC or R160. Remember one of the PCC's design criteria was to recapture the capital investment within a fairly short time.
Perhaps you might show real creativity, if you worked up in $500 million increments starting from 0.
Anyway, my list would include:
1) A Sheridan subway from Columbus and Randolph north on Columbus to Oak, then following the inner drive to 1600 North, west to Clark, up Clark to Lincoln Park West following that as it changes to Sheridan and up to Lawrence where I'd turn west to the current Montrose stop on the Blue Line. 4-track most of the way, cut-and cover preferably for quick access (most current Chicago subways are two levels down).
2) The complete Circle Line, including subway along Ashland/North to the current North/Clyborn stop, reopened Paulina Connector and a connection from the Douglas Branch to the Orange Line. Also add a subway connection from the Sheridan Subway above to North Clyborn.
3) An L along the existing right-of-way along Willow from the Blue Line west to about Oak Park, and east as a subway connecting at the North/Clyborn super-station.
4) A two-part trolley system, one along the 20+ miles of historic Chicago Boulevards, and one along the north branch of the Chicago River running along Kingsbury as far north as Diversey.
5) An L/median line from the existing Yellow Line south in the Edens to the Montrose stop on the Blue Line, turning into the Cicero subway which will be a just-under-the-street subway running from Montrose to 75th Street (about 15 miles), and re-aligning the Orange Line to enter the Cicero Subway for drop-offs closer to the gates at Midway. This will connect all western lines and at 75th Street will turn East to connect to the Red Line. Also continue the Yellow Line north to Old Orchard Mall.
6) Re-extend the Green Line's East 63rd Street Branch to Jackson Park.
7) Elevate Douglas Branch surface section and extend to Berwyn's North Riverside Mall.
8) A subway under Monroe from Columbus to Clinton.
9) A subway under Clinton making a Blue Line Loop.
10) A subway under Halsted from North/Clyborn to the Orange Line.
11) Conversion of Metra Electric in-city operations to CTA Rapid Transit (a la the Gray Line). Either convert completely to L cars, OR use the double-decker eletric Metra cars to run express service north of Randolph with occasional stops between Randolph and the Montrose Blue Line stop.
12) Express tracks to O'Hare, and rehab of Blue Line to O'Hare to re-enable high-speed service (70 mph all the way from Loop to O'Hare with stops only at Division, Logan and Montrose between Loop and O'Hare)
13) Money set aside to lobby for zoning that emphasized high-desnsity development near any El line.
Extend the Broad Street Subway south under the Delaware river to National Park, NJ to relieve congestion on the bridges. I'd also extend it north to Jenkintown.
Build a Germantown subway. I think I'd do it this way: It would start at City Hall, travel under Franklin parkway to hit the Free Library and the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Then it would veer north to the zoo, then continue north more or less along 33rd street on the edge of Fairmount park, following this path until it reaced the right-of-way of either the R7 or R8 Chestnut Hill regional lines. I'd then use one of those right-of-ways for my new line, continuing to Chestnut Hill. I don't know which one I'd convert.
I'd convert the R6 between Norristown and East Falls into a rapid transit line. Coming from Norristown, the train would continue southeastward past East Falls station under Ridge Avenue. I'd eventually hook this line up with the existing Broad-Ridge spur, giving that little stubby line some real value.
Continuing through the PATCO tunnel (which would be allowed in my fantasy world) this line would continue past 15th-16th into southwest Philadelphia. I'm not sure how I'd do it, but I think I'd send it under Baltimore until 48th street, send it south to 49th and Chester to link up to the R3 regional rail station, then continue the line under Woodland Ave, or maybe Lindbergh, terminating at the R1 Eastwick station. I'm not sure of the details, but based on the extreme crowding on the subway-surface trolleys, better transit is needed in this neighborhood.
I'd build a peripheral light rail line. I'd start it at the Tacony R7 regional rail station in Northeast Philly, travel along Cottman Avenue, crossing with my Roosevelt Boulevard Subway, continuing until maybe the Ryers R8 regional station, then veering southwest through Cheltenham township and northwest Philly eventually reaching City Avenue, allowing for a transfer to my Norristown line at East Falls, then continuing along City Avenue, and continuing to 69th Street terminal.
I'd extend the Market-Frankford line past 69th, maybe to Broomall.
I'd restore the trolley on Columbus, plus all the usual ones everyone wants to bring back, like 23 and 56, plus I'd convert the 66 trackless trolley to a rail trolley.
I'd clean and completely rehab all those gross Broad Street Subway stations.
Lastly, I'd build transit-oriented developments around the Kensington stations of the Market Frankford line to help revive the depressed and depopulated neighborhoods.
Okay, that's going to cost more than $25 billion, but this is fantasy money.
Mark
-Extend the North Line to Windward Parkway
-Extend the Northeast Line to Buford and the Mall of Georgia
-Expand MARTA bus service to Cobb, Clayton, Cherokee, Douglas, Gwinnett, and Rockdale, Counties
-Extend the Proctor Creek Line to Symrna and Kennesaw
-Construct the Northwest Line from Woodstock or Canton to the bellmouths north of Arts Center
-Extend the South Line to Palmetto in South Fulton
-Extend the West Line to Douglasville
-Extend the East Line to Conyers along I-20
-Construct the Tucker-North DeKalb Line to Emory Univ. from the turn off near East Lake
2-increase work at coney island terminal.
3-manhattan bridge increase repair time.
4-connect "R" train from 95th Street to Bay Street in Staten Island.
5-begin North Shore SIRT service-at least from Port Richmond or Bayonne Bridge to St.George Ferry.
It's my fondest wish to see ideas such as that one, which utilize existing R.O.W.s to implement new rail service, become reality. I feel that there will be a major change of heart on this in about 10 years or so, as it FINALLY sinks into the conciousness of "the People" that there'll be no new Staten Island Expressways, no new Grand Central Parkways, and here's this perfect pathway ALREADY IN PLACE!
Either ideas such as yours (and others!) become "socially viable", or the region will stagnate. IMO, of course.
LOCAL: from 63rd/Lex (Broadway Express), with stops at 66/2, 76/2, 86/2, 96/2, 106/2, 116/2, 125/Lex, 125/Lenox, 125/Manhattan, 125/Bway
EXPRESS: from Bowery/Delancey and Essex/Delancey (two flying junctions), with stops at Houston/2, St Mark's Pl/2, 14/2, 23/2, 34/2, 42/2, 50/2, 57/2, 66/2, 116/2, 125/2, then a split between two Northern branches: (a) 138/3, 149/3, 156/3, 163/3, 168/3, Claremont Pkwy/3, Tremont Av/3, 183/3, Fordham Plaza; and (b) via former NYWB alignment to Whitlock (Pelham Line), E174, E180 (WPR Line), then taking over all stations to Dyre Av.
1b) Jamaica and Myrtle Lines improvements
Express track on Jamaica El, with Cypress Hills - Alabama Av bypassed by a single track over Jamaica Av. Express stops: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Woodhaven (new station required), BJ, Myrtle, Marcy, Essex.
Jamaica Line exended, with stops at Merrick/Archer, 179/Archer, then a large loop with stations at 190/Hollis, 199/Hollis, Francis Lewis Blvd/Hollis, 215/Hollis, Springfield Blvd/Hempstead, BELMONT PARK, Springfield Blvd/Jamaica, 212/Jamaica, Francis Lewis Blvd/Jamaica, 197/Jamaica, 190/Jamaica.
Platforms lengthened to 600' Broad to Jamaica Center.
Flyover for Queens-bound M at Myrtle/Broadway.
Myrtle Av Line extended along NYCRR and BQE Wye with stops at Eliot Av, Grand Av, Queens Blvd, Bway/Roosevelt, Northern Blvd, Astoria Blvd, LGA MArine Air Terminal, LGA Main Terminal.
SERVICES ON SECTION 1
(J) Belmont Pk - Jamaica Lcl - 2nd Av Exp - Fordham Plaza
<J> Belmont Pk - Jamaica Peak Direction Exp - 2nd Av Exp - Fordham Plaza
(M) La Guardia Airport - Myrtle/Bway Lcl - Broad St
(Z) Dyre Av - 2nd Av Exp - 4th Av Lcl - 9th Av *
* NB this (Z) train is a re-use of a convenient Brown letter - it has nothing to do with Jamaica skip-stop - Jamaica gets a proper express instead!
2) 14th St - Canarsie Line Alterations
2.1) 14th St Line extended West on 14th St then North on 11th Av with stops at 9th-10th Avs, 23rd St, 30th St, Javits Center.
2.2) 14th St Line diverted after Graham Av along Metropolitan Av, with a stop at Morgan Av, then branching (see 2.3 and 2.4)
2.3) Metropolitan Av Line with stops at Gardner Av, Flushing Av, Fresh Pond Rd, 69th St Middle Village (M), 75th St, Woodhaven Blvd, 72nd Av, Lefferts Blvd, Hillside Av, Van Wyck/Jamaica, Sutphin/Jamaica, Parsons/Jamaica, Archer/Merrick, continuing on Merrick Av with stops at 109th Av, Linden Blvd, Baisley Blvd, Farmers Blvd, Springfield Blvd, 225th St, 233rd St, Hook Creek Blvd, then curving to Green Acres Mall.
2.4) Tracks under Grand St from Metropolitan Av Line, then under Grand Av. There are no stops on this independent section. A second pair of tracks join from Flushing Av (see 2.5) - these become the local tracks. The tracks from 14th St - Metropolitan Av run as express tracks with stops at Fresh Pond Rd/Grand, Queens Blvd/Grand, then continuing under 53rd Av, Christie Av, 51st Av and Flushing Meadows Park, with a stop at 108/51, this line would curve onto Main St and terminate at Roosevelt Av.
2.5) These would be the local tracks of the line to Flushing, with stops at Roosevelt Av/Main St, College Pt Blvd, 108/51, Junction/53, Queens Blvd/Grand, 79/Grand, 69/Grand, Fresh Pond Rd/Grand, then diverging under Flushing Av with a stop at Metropolitan Av, then curving under the LIRR with a stop at Morgan Av (before which the line from the Jefferson St station on the Canarsie Line would converge). The line would then run under Montrose Av and S 5th St, with stops at Bushwick Av, Union Av, Marcy Av, then splitting into two pairs of tubes under the East River. One would run on the Manhattan side under Houston St with a stop at Clinton St before entering the existing 2nd Av station. The other would run under E Broadway and Worth St with stops at Rutgers St, Bowery, Broadway, before joining the 8th Avenue Local Line.
2.6) A new line from Javits Center under 34th St with stops at 10th Av, 8th Av, Herald Sq, Park Av, 2nd Av. Tubes would then run under the East River to Vernon/Jackson for the Flushing Line, then the Line would curve and head south on McGuiness Blvd with stops at Greenpoint Av, Nassau Av, Metropolitan/Bushwick, then serving the existing stations on Bushwick Av, then continuing on Bushwick Av, with stops at Flushing Av, Myrtle Av. The line would curve cross-block then run under Malclom X Blvd and Utica Av, with stops at Kosciuszco St, Gates Av, Halsey St, Fulton St, Bergen St, Eastern Pkwy, ENY Av, Winthrop Av, Church Av, Beverly Rd, Foster Av, Av H, Flatlands Av, Av N, Av U.
Services affected:
(C) 168th St - 8th Av Lcl - S5th St Line - Grand Av Lcl - Flushing
(K) Javits - 14th St - Grand Av Exp - Flushing
(L) Javits - 14th St - Metropolitan Av - Green Acres Mall
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 6th Av Lcl - S5th St Line - Canarsie
(Y) Javits - 34th St - Bushwick Av - Utica Av - Av U
3) Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn adjustments
New station under WTC with 3 island platforms. Tracks from West to East: 7th Lcl Downtown, 7th Lcl Uptown, 8th Lcl Terminal (2 tracks), Bway Lcl Downtown, Bway Lcl Uptown.
Spur from Montague St Line to Court St stub.
Services affected (ie those changed from 2004 provisional plan):
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Fulton St Lcl - Euclid Av
4) 7th Av IRT alterations
Reconfigure 137/Bway to have an extra track on the Eastern side of the current uptown platform, leaving the existing uptown track for trains about to relay.
Create a station on the 7th Av Exp at 106/CPW.
Create a flying junciton North of 96th St.
A dive-under at TSQ from the Southbound Bway IRT Lcl to the southernmost 42nd St Shuttle track (this would have to pass beneath the BMT). The middle 2 tracks would continue or be instituted as shuttle tracks (with a realignment at TSQ to make Track 2 useful). Platforms would be lengthened and the outermost tracks extended to a station at 2nd Av.
Services affected:
(1) 242VCP - 7th Av Exp - New Lots
(2) 241 - 7th Av Exp - Flatbush
(3) 148 - 7th Av Lcl - SF
(4) 137 - 7th Av Lcl - 42/2
(S) TSQ - GCT (tracks changed)
I could spend a lot more fictional dollars, but my fingers are tired from typing all this!
LOCAL: from 63rd/Lex (Broadway Express), with stops at 66/2, 76/2, 86/2, 96/2, 106/2, 116/2, 125/Lex, 125/Lenox, 125/Manhattan, 125/Bway
EXPRESS: from Bowery/Delancey and Essex/Delancey (two flying junctions), with stops at Houston/2, St Mark's Pl/2, 14/2, 23/2, 34/2, 42/2, 50/2, 57/2, 66/2, 116/2, 125/2, then a split between two Northern branches: (a) 138/3, 149/3, 156/3, 163/3, 168/3, Claremont Pkwy/3, Tremont Av/3, 183/3, Fordham Plaza; and (b) via former NYWB alignment to Whitlock (Pelham Line), E174, E180 (WPR Line), then taking over all stations to Dyre Av.
1b) Jamaica and Myrtle Lines improvements
Express track on Jamaica El, with Cypress Hills - Alabama Av bypassed by a single track over Jamaica Av. Express stops: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Woodhaven (new station required), BJ, Myrtle, Marcy, Essex.
Jamaica Line exended, with stops at Merrick/Archer, 179/Archer, then a large loop with stations at 190/Hollis, 199/Hollis, Francis Lewis Blvd/Hollis, 215/Hollis, Springfield Blvd/Hempstead, BELMONT PARK, Springfield Blvd/Jamaica, 212/Jamaica, Francis Lewis Blvd/Jamaica, 197/Jamaica, 190/Jamaica.
Platforms lengthened to 600' Broad to Jamaica Center.
Flyover for Queens-bound M at Myrtle/Broadway.
Myrtle Av Line extended along NYCRR and BQE Wye with stops at Eliot Av, Grand Av, Queens Blvd, Bway/Roosevelt, Northern Blvd, Astoria Blvd, LGA MArine Air Terminal, LGA Main Terminal.
SERVICES ON SECTION 1
(J) Belmont Pk - Jamaica Lcl - 2nd Av Exp - Fordham Plaza
<J> Belmont Pk - Jamaica Peak Direction Exp - 2nd Av Exp - Fordham Plaza
(M) La Guardia Airport - Myrtle/Bway Lcl - Broad St
(Z) Dyre Av - 2nd Av Exp - 4th Av Lcl - 9th Av *
* NB this (Z) train is a re-use of a convenient Brown letter - it has nothing to do with Jamaica skip-stop - Jamaica gets a proper express instead!
2) 14th St - Canarsie Line Alterations
2.1) 14th St Line extended West on 14th St then North on 11th Av with stops at 9th-10th Avs, 23rd St, 30th St, Javits Center.
2.2) 14th St Line diverted after Graham Av along Metropolitan Av, with a stop at Morgan Av, then branching (see 2.3 and 2.4)
2.3) Metropolitan Av Line with stops at Gardner Av, Flushing Av, Fresh Pond Rd, 69th St Middle Village (M), 75th St, Woodhaven Blvd, 72nd Av, Lefferts Blvd, Hillside Av, Van Wyck/Jamaica, Sutphin/Jamaica, Parsons/Jamaica, Archer/Merrick, continuing on Merrick Av with stops at 109th Av, Linden Blvd, Baisley Blvd, Farmers Blvd, Springfield Blvd, 225th St, 233rd St, Hook Creek Blvd, then curving to Green Acres Mall.
2.4) Tracks under Grand St from Metropolitan Av Line, then under Grand Av. There are no stops on this independent section. A second pair of tracks join from Flushing Av (see 2.5) - these become the local tracks. The tracks from 14th St - Metropolitan Av run as express tracks with stops at Fresh Pond Rd/Grand, Queens Blvd/Grand, then continuing under 53rd Av, Christie Av, 51st Av and Flushing Meadows Park, with a stop at 108/51, this line would curve onto Main St and terminate at Roosevelt Av.
2.5) These would be the local tracks of the line to Flushing, with stops at Roosevelt Av/Main St, College Pt Blvd, 108/51, Junction/53, Queens Blvd/Grand, 79/Grand, 69/Grand, Fresh Pond Rd/Grand, then diverging under Flushing Av with a stop at Metropolitan Av, then curving under the LIRR with a stop at Morgan Av (before which the line from the Jefferson St station on the Canarsie Line would converge). The line would then run under Montrose Av and S 5th St, with stops at Bushwick Av, Union Av, Marcy Av, then splitting into two pairs of tubes under the East River. One would run on the Manhattan side under Houston St with a stop at Clinton St before entering the existing 2nd Av station. The other would run under E Broadway and Worth St with stops at Rutgers St, Bowery, Broadway, before joining the 8th Avenue Local Line.
2.6) A new line from Javits Center under 34th St with stops at 10th Av, 8th Av, Herald Sq, Park Av, 2nd Av. Tubes would then run under the East River to Vernon/Jackson for the Flushing Line, then the Line would curve and head south on McGuiness Blvd with stops at Greenpoint Av, Nassau Av, Metropolitan/Bushwick, then serving the existing stations on Bushwick Av, then continuing on Bushwick Av, with stops at Flushing Av, Myrtle Av. The line would curve cross-block then run under Malclom X Blvd and Utica Av, with stops at Kosciuszco St, Gates Av, Halsey St, Fulton St, Bergen St, Eastern Pkwy, ENY Av, Winthrop Av, Church Av, Beverly Rd, Foster Av, Av H, Flatlands Av, Av N, Av U.
Services affected:
(C) 168th St - 8th Av Lcl - S5th St Line - Grand Av Lcl - Flushing
(K) Javits - 14th St - Grand Av Exp - Flushing
(L) Javits - 14th St - Metropolitan Av - Green Acres Mall
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 6th Av Lcl - S5th St Line - Canarsie
(Y) Javits - 34th St - Bushwick Av - Utica Av - Av U
3) Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn adjustments
New station under WTC with 3 island platforms. Tracks from West to East: 7th Lcl Downtown, 7th Lcl Uptown, 8th Lcl Terminal (2 tracks), Bway Lcl Downtown, Bway Lcl Uptown.
Spur from Montague St Line to Court St stub.
Services affected (ie those changed from 2004 provisional plan):
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Fulton St Lcl - Euclid Av
4) 7th Av IRT alterations
Reconfigure 137/Bway to have an extra track on the Eastern side of the current uptown platform, leaving the existing uptown track for trains about to relay.
Create a station on the 7th Av Exp at 106/CPW.
Create a flying junciton North of 96th St.
A dive-under at TSQ from the Southbound Bway IRT Lcl to the southernmost 42nd St Shuttle track (this would have to pass beneath the BMT). The middle 2 tracks would continue or be instituted as shuttle tracks (with a realignment at TSQ to make Track 2 useful). Platforms would be lengthened and the outermost tracks extended to a station at 2nd Av.
Services affected:
(1) 242VCP - 7th Av Exp - New Lots
(2) 241 - 7th Av Exp - Flatbush
(3) 148 - 7th Av Lcl - SF
(4) 137 - 7th Av Lcl - 42/2
(S) TSQ - GCT (tracks changed)
I could spend a lot more fictional dollars, but my fingers are tired from typing all this!
(1) Have the IND Second System built with trunk lines serving Utic Avenue, Horace Harding, Myrtle-Central connection to LIRR Rockaway line in Glendale, the Winfield Spur, extension of Hilliside Avenue service to 267th Street, the Van Wyck Extension to Kennedy Airport and Rosedale, the Fulton Street Extension to 229th Street in Cambria Heights and the "Smith Street Line", allowing either V or F serivce from Church Avenue south along Fort Hamilton Parkway into Staten Island as per 1939 plans.
(2) Have the 2nd Avenue converted to a four track line and connect to the Nassau Street line; have it extend into the Bronx via IND second system Lafayette Avenue line to Throg's Neck, the Cross-Bronx line to Co-op City.
(3) Extend the Flushing line into Lower Manhattan via 10th Avenue and Hudson Street.
(4) Build a Northern Blvd. line from Long Island City to Little Neck, with a branch north to the Bronx terminating in Mount Vernon and a branch south through Flushing along 73rd Avenue and Union Turnpike, terminating in Glen Oaks. This new line would connect to the 63rd Street Tunnel to 6th Avenue and 2nd Avenue and to the Broadway line via a new river tunnel at 65th Street.
(5) Build another line along Madison Avenue--it can be either A or B Division. In the Bronx, this route continues via the old Bronx third Avenue El, with most of the same stations rebuilt.
(6) the BMT tunnel from 4th Avenue to Staten Island with takeover of the SIR South Shore and North Shore lines; Also a line via Forest AVenue would also tie these connections.
This is it for now. All of these routes--with a few minor changes to reflect the context of this thread--are included in my transit project.
avid
Well, if we could squeeze a couple of milllion from that motherlode, here's what I'd like.
To build a two or three track enclosed train shed to store any museum equipment, not on display in the Transit Museum. A storage type building to keep out the elements so the museum cars are safe. A building obviously under lock and key. Nothing elaborate, just lighting, no heat or A/C. Now, finding some property adjacent to a yard for this building !
And what's leftover used to restore the unrestored cars, guaranteeing use for fantrips, movie and television shoots.
Bill "Newkirk"
Second... wait, there's money left for a second?
Why was these units at that location at the time?
Picture from: www.transitalk.org
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
avid
--Mark
Picture from: www.transitalk.org
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-Stef
And (tell me again) WHY didn't the TA keep that particular
carbody mold?? Atleast from the exterior views, those cars
SEEM (independent opinion) much nicer composed than 142s.
I haven't been on the R110A or R142/142A yet so I cannot differentiate.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I liked the R131 much better than the R143.
Or ride it. You can't ride the design.
You're saying you've never been on an R-142 or an R-142A???? I find that hard to believe. Even if you hate them (and you obviously don't), every self-respecting railfan should at least ride them once.
It's true, I've ridden the R143 countless times, but I've yet to ride the R142 or 142A, I don't ride the IRT that's why, I mostly a IND and then BMT person but not a IRT guy, I rode the IRT about 3-4 months ago maybe even longer than that.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I think the R131 (aka R110B) was/is one of the most attractive trains made, at least on the exterior. I do like the R143s MUCH better than the R142s, but I wish they left one simple thing alone when they went from the test train R131 to the actual product, the R143; I wish they kept the rollsign from the R131 as opposed to the digital display they have on R143s. Other than that I have no problem with the R143s from a practical transportation aspect....of course as a railfan I would have preferred a railfan wndow as opposed to the "drunken view" through the cab.
The R143s are pretty handsome on the exterior, they just need that rollsign from the R131, and we'd be set to go.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Im not sure where the Cars are at right now.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
til next time.
AMI
Also, why R130/131 plus R110A/B? Was it a screwup in the Public Affairs Office that, instead of being corrected, just changed everything else?
Finally, why did Bombardier build the R131 if they weren't gonna get a part of the R143 order? Instead they built the R142 order, with Kawasaki having built the R130, predecessor to the R142, this does not seem to make much sense.
Oh well, they certainly looked like a good design, it'd be nice to see the R44 replacement order be an R131 derived 67' car.
Those are the OFFICIAL contracts for the building of the cars. real question is what is the 110 contract for?
The R130s/131s are R110A/Bs, the two are one in the same. Check Joe Korman's list of "R" type contracts, they appear under both lines. Now that I look at it, I can see that its pretty clear that the R110 was the design phase, the R130/131 the build orders, and the R110A/B just a carryover from the R110, confusing the situation, but answering one of my questions.
R-130/1 were cars that were tech demonstrators. So, their purpose was for each company to demonstrate that what they could build. So, it was not a direct correlation to the future car orders.
And I think its function should have been carried over to the 142/143: it displayed the call letters of that train.
Did the r110A/110B have a railfan-accessible window??
oz12
But the BMT had quite a variety of electrically lit signage--third rail actuated signs to let those keeping warm in the station houses know when a train was coming, and various service signs.
Each express stop on the Brighton Line had a three lens sign--southbound it simply announced "EXPRESS RUMNING", notth bounf two additional lines said "TO MANHATTAN" and "TO FRANKLIN AVENUE".
P.S. The second sign may have said TO NEW YORK--it's been a long time since it was taken out.
Back in the early 60's, I remember two signs, side by side, above the entrance for the stairways at the Newkirk Ave. station. One said "From City" and the other "To City". They would light and buzz at the same time.
I spoke with Don Harold tonight, he believes that either the West End or the Culver had the "To New York" signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
The signs I like to remember were on the northbound platform at Pacific St. (both local and express side), indicating route and "next stop", which could have been DeKalb, Canal St., Chambers St., or Lawrence St. (yes, Lawrence St.).
I also recall the train approaching signs at Prospect Park - two separate ones on the southbound side, one "via Subway" and one "via Elevated" (from the Frankin shuttle line).
-- Ed Sachs
ALso I found it interesting that HB has a "FROM CITY" side on the northbound. I guess this was for the JFK Specials?
Being in vasselage to Manhattan is bad enough without having to think you are IN "THE CITY."
The sign would light up the next stop on the arriving train. There was one segment with broken glass that exposed the steel stencil work that had the lettering there. That segment said LAWRENCE STREET. That meant the next stop was Lawrence St. The train would use the DeKalb Ave. bypass and switch over to the Montague St. tunnel line.
This pre-dated the DeKalb Ave rebuilding of the late 50's and explains why there was an open area with no support columns. This area was recently cinder blocked over with exposed niches to replicate the rest of the wall for the new DeKalb Ave. rehab.
Bill "Newkirk"
The sign would light up the next stop on the arriving train. There was one segment with broken glass that exposed the steel stencil work that had the lettering there. That segment said LAWRENCE STREET. That meant the next stop was Lawrence St. The train would use the DeKalb Ave. bypass and switch over to the Montague St. tunnel line.
This pre-dated the DeKalb Ave rebuilding of the late 50's and explains why there was an open area with no support columns. This area was recently cinder blocked over with exposed niches to replicate the rest of the wall for the new DeKalb Ave. rehab.
Bill "Newkirk"
I see two fairly obvious locations for "The Day". One would be around 1968 or so when everything had a railfan window, 75 foot cars were nowhere in shite and the PRR and NYC existed as seperate corporations.
"The Day" could also exist between 1955 and 1960 before any real intruduction of stainless steel cars and when all those things that Subtalkers talk about so much (R1/9's, Standards, Hi-V's etc) were still plying the rails.
Anyway, I would very much like input on when Subtalkers consider "The Day" to be.
Of course, my joyride was a dash up CPW on an A train.
Don't mind me if I take on a new habit of not responding to all - we've got some folks tossing out mathematical equations and other nonsense and then turning around and complaining of others of posting nonsense and using subtalk instead of email. So I'd like to stand aside and allow THEM to capture the flag for "most inane posts" if'n yer not offended by my not replying to the various. I really don't WANT to be the top poster here, and looks like THIS month I'm finally off the hook. :)
I know, it's kind of annoying, but I'm trying to get N_Slant_40 to crash. The elimination of that thing will be worth the annoyance.
Hope this doesn't qualify as "instant messaging." (grin)
Even when you are disagreeing with another poster, you have a reasoned argument and debate, unlike some of the other posters, where the discussion degenerates into a “’tis”, “’tisn’t,” flame war.
If David allowed per-person quotas, I would vote for you to have whatever you felt necessary!
John
PS: Did you see that Haliburton won a no-bid contract to put out Iraq oil fires, and several other well-connected companies are ca$hing in on the rebuilding. Of course the selection was purely coincidental…
Yeah, I keep hoping that Halliburton was interested in acquiring a small software company out in the sticks of upstate New York that has the abililty to stop the military computers from being hijacked. If only they'd buy us out, my mood would improve GREATLY if I didn't have to worry about meeting my expenses each month. That's the major part of why I've had my fill of tinhorn politicos. Buy me that abandoned D&H spur, collect a few subway cars, put in a substation and take everybody here for a ride any time they blew into town. That'd be nice. Heh.
And "Night of the living slants" sure has demonstrated how NOT to foam. :)
Maybe it does - although there's only ONE track, the ROW was doubletracked and the embankment is still intact. So are the bridges over most of the roads it crosses. I don't believe there are ANY grade crossings, the tracks either go OVER or under the roads it crosses on bridgework.
That's moving.
Tap the shunt at midpoint and feed it 800, let's see what survives. Of course, I'd PREFER to do that to something less "classic" ... maybe a slant so we can determine what speed it rises off the tracks at.
You have a point - I wouldn't want to mess too much with a classic old timer, either. I'd just want to play conductor.
Seriously though, the nine plus miles out this way which is about to be abandoned would be the PERFECT railroad for former subway cars to stretch their legs and actually RUN like God intended them to.
How many cars are we talking about? I assumed we'd go for a 10-car train.:)
I had my growth spurt right during those years as a Saturday commuter. Between 1967 and 1971 I went from 5 feet tall to 6 feet tall. Had you seen a kid with a schoolbag at the railfan window, that would have been me.
Other than that, historically speaking, "the day" may be the date before which a particular line or service ran, and after which was discontinued. In other words, when thinking about Chrystie St the day may have been 11/67, or when thinking about 3 Ave the day may have been 4/73.
Freudian slip?
It is a nebulous concept (like a country mile) within the memory of the person using the term, but before the memory of the person he is trying to impress.
Tom
Would you run CTA 2200s on the Flushing Line? Run the BUs to White Plains Road? Would you run Redbirds to Skokie? Mix different kinds of equipment? Where would be your top photo run-bys?
--Mark
Not until CTA finishes converting that catenary to third rail! :-)
Hmmm, if Cleveland used third rail instead of catenary, we could run redbirds and bluebirds together. At least I saw a few bluebirds on a siding near the airport last time I was in Cleveland a couple of years ago. Don't know if they're still there.
--Mark
wane
The Turbos though aren't going anywhere except for a few that are off to be rebuilt. The ones that have already been rebuilt or are in the process of being rebuilt will go into service at some point in the near future once NYS antes up the cash it already owes Hamtrak ...
What I EXPECT you saw though was a *NEW* (just rebuilt) trainset that was parked behind the Genesis units until New York pays to put them into service. The Rennselaer maintenance facility is their current home since Amtrak won't run them until they get paid. The money that was SUPPOSED to go towards that went to Joey's train station instead. :(
Do THAT sorta 'splain it? :)
It hasn't run since December; for the last few months of 2002, it was pulled by a Genesis. According to this post from February, it has indeed been sitting at Albany-Rensselaer with a few idle F40s stuck to it.
OLD
NEW
And you're MOST welcome.
Maybe more by the time you read this.
Maybe you shouldn't hold onto your tokens thinking they'll be worth even more in the future. It's pretty common that some numismatic items from the U.S. Mint that have been around in their online catalog for months or years, will FINALLY sell out and the ads start on eBay: RARE MUSCOVY DUCK COMMEMORATIVE COIN!!! SOLD OUT AT THE MINT!!!
The price skyrockets to multiples of the issue price, then several months later plummets again, sometimes to less than the issue price.
Do you think the same won't happen with tokens?
Check out this one for 2 of the older tokens - a 1953 and a 1970, the bidding is up to $65.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2169402120&category=4152
This one is for the 1953, 1970 and 1980 and is up to $32.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3017941063&category=3457
If those prospective buyers only knew how many of those tokens are really still out there they would never bid so much. Too bad none of us are allowed to contact them (an ebay rule).
'Tis better for the fleecing....
Ebay isn't run by dummmies, some of the buyers though,...?
"July 16 - A fire at Metropolitan Ave Terminal of the Myrtle Ave Line reported at 10:14 AM destroyed a 4 car length strip of the southbound (M-2) side, leaving only a 4 car length usable at the north end. The train on that track (n8513-2, 8203-2, 8237-6, 8359-8s) was hastily evacuated and its passengers walked through the yard to Fresh Pond Road Station. Cars 8202-3 were totally cremated and 8512 and 8237 were badly burned and beyond repair. One report states that the car damage might have been avoided if the emergency cord had not been pulled. The train on the other track (n3694-5, 3659-8, 3356-7, 3614-5s) was speedily pulled out of the station and run into the yard. Cars 3659-8 and 8513 were slightly damaged but will be repaired."
Elias
Granted, I've seen burned cars in the yards but THAT consist is IMPRESSIVE.
wayne
(The sign is still there, as is the upside down map -- which seems to be kept up-to-date -- but I'm afraid the Redbird is not. I took this picture in October 2002.)
They don't seem to be terribly uncommon.
This one's my favorite:
The main problem is locating servicable locomotives and rolling stock. Iraq had bought about 200 locomotives in the early 1980's, but only about 20 are still functioning. Read more at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Coalition
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com | My Other Car is an R-40 Slant
---Choo Choo
about the other pics, the tunnel shot, inquiring minds want to know:
was it taken from an r32 R, or a slant N?
---Choo Choo
I don't care what anybody says, or whether the photo is artsy, fartsy, tartsy or smartsy. I like it!
Any asshole can learn to work a camera and make it do tricks. The "talent" comes in the composition -- the ability to frame a scene. I think you've done that here.
If the photo-snobs want to see "great art." they can go to a museum or buy a book about O. Winston Link.
---Choo Choo
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Yea! Amtrak isn't going to shut down this month!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#USDOT
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Just when oyu thought it was over
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Guilford
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I think this applies to the majority of you on SubTalk
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#AARP
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A nice gesture
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#BART
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WOO HOO! The PRR Lives! The last causality from the Chase MD wreck comes back from the dead!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------
From the April South Station Journal, a note that Amtrak’s business is up while the airlines are down. The publication also reported late this month Amtrak will change the name of the Twilight Shoreliner overnight train to Washington to the Federal. It will have three classes of service, leaving south station at 10 pm and arriving in D.C. at 7:30 am. A development worth watching is a single daily non-stop train that now runs between Providence and Penn Station, New York. Amtrak discarded the name Federal as a train name several years ago after a Conrail locomotive ran a stop signal in Maryland and collided with the passenger train.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Hello
I didn't know Amtrak ever used The Federal a train name. The overnight Boston-Washington train was given up as soon as Amtrak came into existence. It was revived a few years later as The Night Owl.
This has some historic significance since The Federal Express was one of the oldest train names in the U.S. The service ran before Penn Station existed, using a train ferry between New Haven and Jersey City.
The Amtrak train that slammed into the stopped Conrail lite motors that ran a stop signal, IIRC was the Colonial, #94. #94 runs today but under a different name, which escapes me at the moment.
Michael
Washington, DC
Since the quota is 50 responses and it's 10:30 om EDT, I can sell my unused 43 responses. I don't have time to put them on EBay.
However the much earlier accident at Was US in PRR times was what I am trying to track down.
In any event if the renaming indicates a Gunn aesthetic choice, I applaud. Northeast Direct is insufficient. Time for the Morning Congressional, The Potomac, and all the other traditional names.
Wrong. The name they discarded was "Colonial".
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Final
Now Sound Transit is looking to block (or has been blocking for some time) the creation of the Seattle Green Line monorail, despite the fact that it will not in any way compete with their BS 'Central Link LRT.' They're only talking three stations north of Seattle Union Station for the Sounder light rail, Edmonds, Mukilteo and Everett, what BS! If only I lived in King County or Snohomish, I'd be screaming bloody murder about where my money was going!
Something Stinks in Tacoma, and it's not the usual aroma from the paper mills...
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Phazes of New Transit Construction
1) Round of expensive studies
2) NINBY Bitching
3) Round of expensive studies
4) Politico cost Bitching
5) Round of expensive studies
6) More NIMBY Bitching
7) Final Plan Finalized
8) Final Plan Finalized Again
9) Optimistic Anouncements and Celebrations
10) Some Critical Compoment Falls Through, wait 20 years to continue
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Georgia
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Wow, some.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04142003.shtml#Some
I wish I could have that commuter rail supervisor's job! That must be the easiest job in the world. This guy will just get to sit in the dispatcher's office all day drinking coffee and reading magazines and surfing the internet and every once in a while yell over to the Amtrak dispatcher "will ya let my train go?!?"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com | My other car is an MBTA F40
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
75' cars are longer and heavier than 60' cars. The extra weight of the cars and extra passengers would cause additional wear on trucks and wheels and therefore additional maintenance, but it still should be lower per passenger mile than 60' cars.
Tom
Maintaining 100 60' cars costs a lot more than maintaining 80 75' cars.
Elias
The catches:
- Now the fleet is subdivided into 3 incompatible segments instead of 2.
- Longer dwell times at crowded stations.
Since the R-160 Fleet WILL be 60'6", the MTA should make its next purchase cars of larger dimensions. I had hoped that NYCT would make the replacements for the old 60' cars 67' in length (reducing fleet size even further), but I was disappointed. Can anyone explain WHY the TA decided to go with 60' vs. 67'? (67' standards could run on the BMT east)
The catches:
- Now the fleet is subdivided into 3 incompatible segments instead of 2.
The 75' cars arent really incompatible with the 60' cars like the IRT cars are. IRT cars are thinner, and thus leave unacceptable gaps on B div platforms. So, 51' cars cant go where 60' cars can, but 60' cars can go where 75' can. The only issue is the sharp curves, and i dont really consider this an issue at all. As long as there's enough equipment, the East division doesn't need 75' to run over there. The bigger issue is the loading factor. But since thats only an issue at a few stops during rush hour, it doesn't outweigh the benefit of lower costs.
Let's say that the TA had made the "r161" order 75' cars to replace as many 60 foot cars as possible instead of 60' R-160's. 600 R32's, 200 R38's, and 300R-40 Slants. (original orders, not including lost cars). That's 1100 cars becoming 880 cars. 220 cars you're not preforming maintenance on. Big savings in times of 'budget crisis'. Plus, you'd still have enough cars for operation on BMT east (R143, + enough R160's to replace R42/40M).
Can anyone explain why the TA did not do this?
Or if you are an optimist, still buy 1100 cars, but end up with not 110 trainsets but 137½!
According to another thread, the ½ car would be an infinite service increase on the C line!
Can't run 75' cars on the A division or the eastern division. Shouldn't run them on the Queens Blvd express tracks because dwell time is a very critical issue there.
What does that leave, using expected 2004 service patterns:
A, B, C, D, G, N, R, Q, V, W.
That's still a sizable chunk of the entire system. But I guess the planners decided it wasn't worth having equipment that could only run on those lines.
Depends on how you define incompatible.
R44s are incompatible with anything else in the system, since they charge to a different pressure. They can be coupled to R46s, but the resulting lash-up would have two separate brake pipes.
The R142/142A are incompatible with anything else in the A Div, since they have both different couplers and different pins on the electric portions.
R68/68As are theoretically capable of being coupled to R32, 38, 40 & 42s, but that train would look fairly ridiculous - an 8 car, 540 foot long train that would need new C/R boards or stop markers.
The R143 has yet another style of coupler, necessitating an adaptor to couple up with anything.
So, in the A Div there are two fleets, while the B has 5.
The curves are an issue under emergency situations -- Remember what happened after 9/11, when the Eastern Division J and M trains had to handle the Southern Division routes because of the loss of the Broadway line south of Canal. If the R-160 order had been delivered back then and if the MTA had replaced the 60-foot R-38/40/42s with 75-foot cars, they would have been left with nothing but R-32 cars (and R-143s) to handle those routes, since the 75 footers can't negotiate the Brooklyn curves, or supposedly the northbound curve coming into Chambers.
With a limited number of 75 footers, as there is now, odds are the MTA can always find some place to hide them if there's some major service disruption (such as a complete failure of the Manny B repairs a few years down the line). But if the bulk of the system is 75 footers, than the MTA's service adjustment options in such and emergency would be very limited.
Now for more great late night TV!
From what I have seen of this project in the northern Jersey City/Southern Hoboken area, I am pleased as to the management aspect, as it appears as though there is a definite operational plan that is being followed as opposed to the "what do we do now?" mentality. By way of example, I note that where the line forms a 'T' west of Hoboken Terminal, they actually constructed future MOS-2 portions of the line, including building bridges and hanging the catenary, before they ever opened the Hoboken Terminal, which was the end of MOS-1. I am very excited to see the MOS-2 portion grow and think it will greatly benefit those on the west side of Hoboken who seem to be somewhat isolated.
There are some issues though. For example, the routing through Jersey City is awfully slow with speeds averaging 10-15 mph. Grade separation should have used at Liberty State Park, and the line should have followed a less curvy path to support higher speeds between Liberty State Park and Jersey Avenue. Also, HBLR should have received street light preemption in downtown Jersey City.
I would have liked to see the system extended into Hoboken along the river, but improving access to Hoboken's west side is paramount for improving that area of Hoboken. An extension to Staten Island would be great for improving transit access in the region. Have they determined where the line would go from North Bergen?
Yes, but I don't know whether they'll be covered for operator privacy.
photo of SNJLRTS car
As for its planned route, check this link:
http://www.njtransit.com/images/hblr_maphighres.jpg
As for proposed routing, check this:
http://www.njtransit.com/images/proposed_west_shore_map.jpg
(The Northern Branch - blue and NYS&W - green rotes are the ones under consideration, I believe)
SORRY FOR THE LACK OF HTML (?) on the links!!! If anyone can provide a quick tip on how to do that using Internet Explorer and this board, I would greatly appreciate it.
Proposed route map
and you'll get this:
Proposed route map
Mark
Type this:
<a href="http://www.njtransit.com/images/hblr_maphighres.jpg">Proposed route map</a>
and you'll get this:
Proposed route map
Mark
Mark
wayne
BTW, why didn't they redesign the tracks on NCS when they switched from the PCCs to LRVs? IIRC, didn't they shut it down for a couple of months when they switched cars? It would have been nice if both systems could meet with each over via an extension of the West Side Avenue branch through South Kearny to NERL.
NO!
The cars were changed over during a weekend. The two week closure was in 1999 when catenary was installed. The PCCs ran under the cat for two more years.
Also perhaps a spur to Newark Liberty International Airport.
Boy, at least in Hudson and Essex Counties, it's getting to resemble Brooklyn in the first two decades of the 20th Century, i.e., the BRT lines getting extended and improved. It's like they're saying "your past is our future". Who'd a thunk it??
While we've been twiddling our thumbs they built the Jersey equivalent of the SAS. For shame, Empire State!
Everybody get to work,
Doctors, Lawyers, (some job that rhymes with work, sorry train made a noise and I missed it),
When you get there you won't miss
The acrid smell of human piss!
I'm fairly certain that behind her an E train was headed for WTC, and at other points in the show an entrance to West 4th Street IND station. Also on this show I've seen some Seattle KC Metro Busses (including ETBs), and in the same episode some low floor bus was visible in a white, purple and black scheme.
Anyway, it's a damn funny show, described by one person as the Tom Green show without the idiocy and vulgarity. And all the stuff shot in New York must have been shortly after one of the large snow storms, becuase there were cases where they were sitting on benches half-buried in snow.
Everybody get to work,
Doctors, Lawyers, (some job that rhymes with work, sorry train made a noise and I missed it),
When you get there you won't miss
The acrid smell of human piss!
Anyway, it's a damn funny show, described by one person as the Tom Green show without the idiocy and vulgarity.
Not that it sounds like wholesome family fare, based on that quote.
Some Redbirds have all the luck...
-Stef
P.S. This was totally unexpected. I didn't think I'd find Redbirds roaming Unionport Yard.
--Choo Choo
Wrong cars! This is 8954-55, they have the overhauled trucks. These aren't going anywhere, as they are on reserve status. These came off the 5.
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
---Choo Choo
What, no mug shot on your driver's license? Better not drive in North Carolina then... their "no photo on your driver's license means it isn't a valid license here" law was upheld in Federal court last year and the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal.
The law, by the way, was known as the "Quebec law" when it was passed a few years ago, as it was in response to a Quebec driver who presented four different Quebec licenses, none with photos, to four different state troopers who stopped him for speeding on I-95 - all four stops in the same day. It was his fifth stop in North Carolina, on his return trip northbound, that finally got him arrested... he was stopped by one of the same troopers who had stopped him when he was going south, but he presented a different license than he had used before.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I could rant on and on about that too, but I won't... suffice it to say that dealing with NJ DMV is a major pain...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The North Dakota license has a photo. One time I lost my license, and went to get another, and guess what! It had the SAME PHOTO as the one that was lost. The .jpg goes right into the database with your other information.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My drivers license still has the photo they took of me over 10 years ago. Since you don't have to renew in person any longer there is no opportunity to take an updated photo.
If you don't feel like going to get an eye doctor's letter but go to the NY DMV for an eye test, they take a new picture.
To get back to rail systems, how do NJ residents ride Amtrak if they don't have a passport, since Amtrak requires a photo ID?
By contrast, I've never waited longer than 30 minutes for either in North Carolina, and usually it takes under 15 for tags. (They're in separate offices, though - tag operations, except for Raleigh, are contracted, whereas license offices are all state-run.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have a new, Hi-Tech license, and now the photo gets taken before you do the eye test/paperwork. This gets instantly compared with the one in file, so it's just gotten almost impossible to get a phony license/ID card any more.
Maryland also makes it easy to renew, with major and mini offices all over the state. The Maryland MVA is the most maligned agency in the state and they are making a major effort to change the culture and the image. It seems to be working. Last time the tags got renewed, I did it over the Internet. You print a temporary registration and card on your printer and the MVA mails the tag sticker/permanent registration card to you. They give a 15-20 day window for mail, and they beat their own timetable by having the envelope in my snail mail box in just 4 days!
The last time I renewed my license, it took all of 20 minutes. Remarkably, the photo even looks like me.
And since New York has been allowing you to mail your renewal in, I had a photo "mugshot" from my old college "heavy-metal" look on my license for the longest time. I always would get a double-take when people would ID me, as I obviously no longer have 80's "heavy-metal" hair anymore. Now I think my newest license is an 8 year term, so most people now in NY will sure have "old" photos of themselves if they didn't get a change of photo recently, now some of those photos could be 20 years old by the time they have to renew again.
In Minnesota, I hear that they are encoding your ID information on the card, so that Liquer stores or bars can swipe the card to check its information, and to give a read out on its validity. I think the idea is that in the future the card must be swiped before the cash register will work.
Apparently we have those readers here in North Dakota, but we don't encode information yet, so it only works with Minnesota residents who leak across the border.
Elias
Buy your ticket online with a credit card; go to the station, insert the same credit card into the machine and your ticket pops out.
OH CANADA!!! :-)
-Robert King
And there is no law requiring you to carry any ID, with or without a picture – yet. Unfortunately more and more buildings are requiring you to show a photo ID to enter, although for the life of me I do not know why. They have no watch list, and in many places keep no record of your name. I suspect any reasonably competent terrorist could obtain one or more photo IDs. That's the sort of tradecraft that is taught in Terrorism 101.
Tom
Right click, "Properties," copy URL
But I'm glad that at least you and hopefully someone else saw them. Hope you enjoyed.
Thanks for the tip anyway.
As I recall the Standards, however, the was only one destination sign in each set. So, all signs contained the route, but the signs toward one end of the car showed the destination in that direction, and the ones at the other showed the other destination.
What was the practice with the metal signs on the IRT Lo-V's?
But the BUs had the same practice as the BMT Standards.
There was some variation in practie on the Standards, often involving the Nassau Loop. Brighton Specials in the a.m. carried EXPRESS BROAD STREET in the front set of signs and EXPRESS NASSAU STREET in the back.
-- Ed Sachs
Story in Albany NY TimesUnion, no subscription required
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
I found this interesting article in The Tufts Daily about life inside a token-booth.
Through the Token-booth Glass
Don't have exact measurments as to footage, so I will describe to you in terms of levels below and above ground, from East side to West side. Each level is approx one average staircase from one area to the next:
Lexington Ave (it's a bi-level station)
Uptown (Bronx-bound)- 2.2 levels deep
Downtown-3.5 levels deep
Lenox Ave-1 short level deep
St. Nicholas Ave-1.45 levels deep (The stairs from the mezzanine to platforms are shorter than the stairs to the street.)
Both Metro-North and West side IRT (1 and 9 lines) are above ground.
I hope this helps you in your study. Good luck!
JV
What would be the point of terminating the M up there anyway, except for railfan photo ops?
JV
There was some interest, but you had to hunt for it--some steelwork showing the turnouts for the Park, Lex and 5th Avenue lines could still be seen, and there was the bridge over Flatbush Avenue. The line got really interesting south of Jay Street, but of course that went in 1944.
The part that remains, north of Broadway, would really have been the greater loss.
JV
JV
I agree with you. The Broadway El is one fascinating piece of transit infrastructure. It just seems so heavy duty, you know? I couldn't even imagine Broadway without it. What could be built to replace it? Could you see a new three track subway as a replacement?! Not in my lifetime. I hope it lasts for a long time.
Arti
That's a very good question.
It probably would have become less used than it is now. It would have been the subway to no where. What use would it have been? I speculate that if the BMT was taken over by the IND, and there was no WWII, and they kept building the IND second system, the Nassau line may have been swallowed up by an IND Second Ave subway or something and used as it's southern end. More than likely they would have connected it to some other line in Manhattan.
This of course is speculation, I don't know what they planned for it if the Broadway el was abandoned. An underground subway, however short it is in Manhattan probably would not have been abandoned, as it's too valuable to build. But at the same time, who would have needed an Essex St to Broad Street shuttle. More than likely they would have connected it to some IND extension uptown.
I have always wondered if, since the South 4th Street shell has provision for six tracks, it was planned that the Jamaica el tracks from the Nassau Loop would have become one pair of those through the station; since the other four tracks at South 4th St. were planned to receive the two pairs that diverged from 6th Ave. via Houston/2nd Ave. and from 8th Ave. via the Worth St. connection.
That would have meant, constructing a new ramp northeast from the Williamsburg bridge into a tunnel approaching South 4th street, or constructing an entirely new tube under the east river, and eliminating the tracks over the Williamsburgh.
Though either of these two options would have been expensive and elaborate, the South 4th St. provision was included as the "G" was being built, and plans for it were developed prior to and probably revised, sometime after 1929 (when the second system plan was unveiled publicly; that Sept. in the NY Times).
That was also different era - the 8th Ave. subway was being built, contracts were being let (and completed) for underwater tubes into Brooklyn for Fulton St. and the route to Church St., as well as constructing the tunnel from Manhattan and the IND in Queens. The Board of Transportation (Delaney, Ridgway, Snow, etc.) may have assumed that with the ease with which the initial IND construction was occurring, that a project such as rerouting the Nassau St. subway into South 4th St., at some future date, was achievable as well.
However, any reroute of the Nassau St. subway as well as the route east from South 4th St., would have meant building through a heavily populated and dense section of Brooklyn, with property easements, and eminent domain of buildings above the right of way. All that would have became very difficult if not impossible after the war.
IINM, the other 2 tracks were to be from the 2nd Avenue Line.
Yeah - I should have remembered that!! You're right - I have seen plans for the 2nd ave line to go into South 4th St. via a *third* tube at one of the pages in Joseph Korman's site: http://www.thejoekorner.com.
(Where did you happen to find either text or plans for the 2nd ave. subway to S. 4th St. - at his site or somewhere else?)
It would also have seemed logical though, not to lose the Williamsburgh bridge connection into Brooklyn; and routing the Nassau St. route into S. 4th St. also would have kept the continuity of a subway route from that section of Manhattan, out along Broadway in Brooklyn to East New York.
Also, what does IINM stand for, as well as that other I always see - IIRC?
Not sure about IINM.
Yes, at the JoeKorNer - the relevant diagram is this one. There is thext on this page.
Also, what does IINM stand for, as well as that other I always see - IIRC
If I'm not mistaken; if I recall correctly.
It would also have seemed logical though, not to lose the Williamsburgh bridge connection into Brooklyn; and routing the Nassau St. route into S. 4th St. also would have kept the continuity of a subway route from that section of Manhattan, out along Broadway in Brooklyn to East New York.
It would have been nice to hook it up to the 7th and 8th tracks that terminated at Union Avenue in the more complicated plan.
(Where did you happen to find either text or plans for the 2nd ave. subway to S. 4th St. - at his site or somewhere else?)
Yes, at the JoeKorNer - the relevant diagram is this one. There is thext on this page.
Also, what does IINM stand for, as well as that other I always see - IIRC
If I'm not mistaken; if I recall correctly.
It would also have seemed logical though, not to lose the Williamsburgh bridge connection into Brooklyn; and routing the Nassau St. route into S. 4th St. also would have kept the continuity of a subway route from that section of Manhattan, out along Broadway in Brooklyn to East New York.
It would have been nice to hook it up to the 7th and 8th tracks that terminated at Union Avenue in the more complicated plan.
Why were they going to call the station S 4th St, when that's the street the line would have run under? Surely Marcy Av or whatever street the station would really have been at would have been a much better name.
Would that have been the only station on the S 4th St line? It sure would be a big gap from Union to the East River.
If the station would have been built to the east or west of Union Avenue, maybe then the name would be different.
But why not be more conventional and name it by the cross-street, e.g. "Union Avenue", which would cause precisely NO confusion with West 4th St?
Hey, at least it's not as dumb as in Moscow... Arbatskaya station on the Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya is an interchange with Alexandrovsky Sad on the Filiyovskaya. The next stop along the Filiyovskaya is called - wait for it - Arbatskaya. Talk about needlessly causing confusion!
JV
As long as they keep the skip-stop on the J/Z, they will probably to extend the exptress between Myrtle and BJ. Sending either the J or the Z express there, would give an unfair advantage to whichever line goes express. It works between Marcy and Myrtle because the M picks up the slack.
The only way they can make it work, while keeping the J/Z skip-stop service, would be to:
-Extend the V through Chrystie to Canarsie. Send the J/Z express from BJ to Marcy. The M would be the local b/t Marcy and Myrtle, and the V would be the local b/t Myrtle and BJ.
The only problem with this is that the Canarsie line doesn't need all this service between Canarsie and BJ.
Some options dealing with this would be:
1. This is kind of moot with the Atlantic restructuring, but before that the V could have run b/t Continental and Atlantic/Canarsie Line.
2. Terminate the V at Broadway Junction (if this is possible), with out messing up the J/Z now running express.
3. Run the V between Continental and Canarsie, while short turning some L trains at Myrtle/Wyckoff (the users of Halsey, Bushwick, and Wilson would be unhappy, but they are not extremely high use stations).
4. This is really David Greenberger's idea, but it's interesting. Have the L run between 8th Ave and Broadway Junction all times the V is running, making BJ the terminal for the L line. Run the V between Rockaway Parkway and Continental Ave. The V would in essence would become the Canarsie line's service. This would give Broadway Brooklyn and Canarsie riders direct 6th Ave midtown service. The M riders, and Jamaica riders would have an easy cross-the-platform transfers. If they still want to keep the V as a daytime weekday only train, that would also work. The L line could run between Canarsie and 8th ave late nights and weekends.
they should consider it and see how it would work
Jv
Hot Lunch!
jv
I've heard of that too. Whether it's in a place with public access, or can be seen from public streets, however, I don't know.
JV
Bill "Newkirk"
And After:
jv
I have been using the Pause and Slow Advance functions on my DVD player to get a better look at some of the locations and subway scenes in The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 and The "Freedom" Connection :O) .
In Pelham, I noticed they actually filmed many of the street scenes in their actual locations, particularly on Park Avenue South. I was slow-advancing through the scene where the cop cruiser carrying the million dollars careens into a newstand next to the Astor Place uptown entrance and rolls over. It was interesting to see that entrance pre-kiosk-replica-replacement. Had the kiosk been there, that scene would not have been possible. Another fun discovery: If you work your Pause button right, you can see the rear of the stunt-driver's crash helmet in the shot through the windshield just before the car rolls. It was also fun to be able to pick out the scenes clearly NOT filmed on the actual IRT, but rather at Court St. or Hoyt-Schermerhorn (most of the 28th St. station scenes, etc.). Clearly, the scenes of the train pulling into and at 51st St. were not filmed there. For one thing, the column supports are located too far away from the platform edge.
In Connection, I found it odd that Gene Hackman's character, a cop, lived in Public Housing in Coney Island. When Roy Scheider comes to his door, the corridor is made of cinder-block, a common trait in 1960's era public housing "architecture." Also, the pre-chase, sniper scenes clearly take place in and around those monolithic public housing high-rises near Stillwell and Bay 50th St. (where the chase begins). Was it common for cops to live in public housing? I can't imagine that the real guy, Popeye Egan lived there. Also, the Grand Central Shuttle scenes were clearly on-location. (Of course, just before the opening-and-closing-subway-doors scene, Popeye chases the French godfather all the way from the BMT 5th Avenue stop to Grand Central shuttle station, a 17 block distance dodging traffic and pedestrians, in just a few miracle minutes!) I remember that white tile with the blue and orange tile accents at the GCT shuttle platforms, and I've only been in NY since the mid-nineties. In the DVD "extras" the guy Roy Scheider's character is based on, Cloudy Grasso, mentions that in the real-life story, they in fact chased the suspect in a car while he rode the TSQ/GCT shuttle, but he talks about chasing him between "Penn Station" and Grand Central, clearly mis-remembering, since the shuttle does not stop at Penn.
Sonny Grosso went on to become a TV producer, having made the short-lived, but totally NYC location-oriented cop series 'True Blue' (about an 'elite' ESU unit based in lower Manhattan). I believe he was involved with other TV shows and movies, but I can't recall them...most of course would have something to do with the NYPD.
I had an acquaintance who appeared in a guest role on an episode of True Blue (which I think was called "Truck One" in the pilot). Don't know if he's still acting, though. That was the first time I saw a guys name on screen who I'd personally known.
That was pretty much an inside thing between them, since Sonny was already a nickname for Salvatore. BTW, did you notice his (Grosso's) bit part in The French Connection? How about The Godfather?
Tom
You can see a gap between the side of the train and the edge of the platform at "51st St."
When Carmody closes down the train while talking to Mattson out loud, there is a similar gap between the platform and the rear section of the train, but not the front section (may have been the other way around).
If you look quickly while Carmody removes his door key, you can see levers.
7339 appears in different scenes with other trains. For instance, you can see it across the platform at "Grand Central," where it's coupled to an R-10, of all cars! It's also visible when that train goes by Grand Central Tower as Caz Dolowicz is talking to Frank Correll.
The DVD answered a question as to why it takes so long for Carmody to close down the front section of the train after being instructed by Mr. Brown to shut the doors as soon as Mr. Blue boards the train: he closed the rear section first! You can't see it on the VHS version.
The DVD also revealed the number of that R-17 on the end of the first train visible in the movie: it's 6762.
It is with sadness I report that the final run of Mainline R-33 Redbirds was made on the #4 Monday, April 14.
The consist was (S) 9232/9233-9302/9303-9108/9109-9244/9245-9248/9249 (N). We hoppe to get a final trip time eventually.
This marks the end of all Redbird use on the IRT Mainlines, and leaves only the Worlds Fair and Mainline R-36s assigned to Corona (7) in active passenger service.
At the same time, the first train of 1100-series R-142s made its debut (1106-1110, 1121-1125-Trainset #5), so they only ran togetyher fleetingly for one day.
Hale and farewell to another piece of "Old New York."
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well, my day is ruined. I hope the last run ended before 5pm because I was planning on going up to the Bronx to photograph them but then something else came up so I couldn't. But I did hang out at Bowling Green from 5:25pm to 5:40pm and I didn't see any Redbirds. Should I still go up to the Bronx today with the hope that maybe the redbirds had to be pressed back into service?
---Choo Choo
Well, actually hearing this news, I think I just might find a corner somewhere where I can be alone....yeah that's it - a dark corner....alone and cry a little....
The Flushing 7 Line....The final frontier........
---Choo Choo :(
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo :(
Let me stop, I'm gonna cry now, BOO-HOO!
Numerous 1100 Series Cars are out burn testing, so I'd expect to see more soon. Also awaiting the entry of 6876-85 to service on the 5, where 7121-30 can be formally displaced to the 4.
-Stef
but if you dont mind me asking ?
Are the any Red birds left on the irt lines ?
No more Redbirds to roam through The Bronx or Brooklyn, and just barely into Manhattan.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The only thing for me to do is make a models of those cars !
Thank you for the information !
wayne
Does anyone know the status of that. If done, that will be the end of the reserve R33 fleet.
That still gives a handful of 'birds a few more years to live.
I think all remaining redbirds should be put in 239 St yard, so they will run during the rush hour on the <5> line(and one will be used as a (2) so it can interline into the off peak <5> train)
I'm due for a visit with 6688 tomorrow on the AM.
-Stef
Chaohwa
Best of all, the MTA here is having the cars rebuilt (ADA stuff, A/C upgrades, logic & propulsion upgrades) so the railfan window won't be going away in Charm City for quite a while.
Speaking of Baltimore:
Larry, RedbirdR33
This train is an example of the power of flexible routing and multiple connections.
I did say it was a trick question.
Is this the answer?
Oh dear. I guess that means we can't play with knobs anymore except for the handful that were never removed from a few R-36's and R-32's.
N/B 2 via Lex
No 4 Service between 149th and 125th Sts
5 Service via 7th Av both ways to TSQ, it ran all night.
That time, the 3 ran local from 96th to 34th Sts, while the 5 had the express track to itself. The rerouted N/B 2 was the only service at 138th St-GC.
Oh what a night. When I got off work at TSQ that Saturday, I had an empty Redbird 5 to myself!
-Stef
You described one of them. The other had the 2, 3, and 5 as you say, but the 4 running through (to New Lots, local in Brooklyn) and the 1 cut back to Chambers, terminating on both SB tracks (even though the 2 was running through on the express) and running express NB from Chambers to 14th. (Later incarnations had the 1 terminating at various other points to ease congestion at Chambers. One variant had the 1 terminating at 34th on the local track, running light all the way to Chambers to relay, and reentering service NB at Franklin. At that time it was the SB 2 that was on the East Side, so there was no SB service to or from 28th, 23rd, 18th, Christopher, Houston, Canal, Franklin, or Chambers, even though 1 trains passed through all of them to relay.) With South Ferry open, the reroutings of last weekend and the prior weekend achieve the same goal.
To make life even more confusing, one of the GO's was in effect the first weekend of 2002 and the other was in effect the following weekend. The second weekend, the T/O (yes, the T/O) of a 5 train I was riding made a most excellent, detailed announcement at 149-GC, directing passengers to the 4 shuttle bus for East Side service -- only that weekend, 4 trains were running through.
Can you fashion a trip plan where you would ride every line (including the three shuttles) for at least one stop, on one fare, without riding any line more than once?
Assume rush hour service (M to Brooklyn, Z and 9 skip/stop, et al).
Are 1 and 9 the same or different?
Are N and R the same or different?
4 and 5?
Is a line a letter/number? Or is it just a color on the map, so that all orange trains count as the same line?
Start at Rockaway Park (cannot double back any other way and you must ride all 3 shuttles)
S to any stop between B-110 and Broad Channel
A to Nostrand
C to Franklin
FS to Prospect Park
Q to Atlantic
2 to Nevins
3 back to Atlantic
W to 36th st
R to 9th st
F to Smith-9th
G to Metro-Grand
L to B'way-Jct
J to Myrtle
M to Canal
6 to 14/US
5 to 42nd st/GC
Shuttle across to TS
N to 59th st
4 back to GC
7 to 5th ave
B to 7th ave
E to 5th ave
V to 50th st/Rock Center
F to 42nd st
D to 59th st/CC
and last but not least, take the #1 train to any stop you need.
now! Did I miss any subway line?
You also don't have a 9, a Z, or a diamond Q (not sure if those are separate lines). But all of those are easy to add in.
There, challenge met!
S to any stop between B-110 and Broad Channel
A to Nostrand
C to Franklin
FS to Prospect Park
Q/Local to 7th Ave
Q/Diamomd to Atlantic
2 to Nevins
3 back to Atlantic
W to 36th st
R to 9th st
F to Smith-9th
G to Metro-Grand
L to B'way-Jct
J to Myrtle
Z to Marcy
M to Canal
6 to 14/US
5 to 42nd st/GC
Shuttle across to TS
N to 59th st
4 back to GC
7 to 5th ave
B to 7th ave
E to 5th ave
V to 50th st
D to 59th st/CC
and last but not least, take the #1 train one stop in either direction, then take the #9 train.
There, challenge met!
Not a big problem. Starting here:
B to 7th ave
Continue thusly:
E to W4
S to Broadway-Laf
V to 50th st
D to 59th st/CC
Then finish up on the 1 and 9 (not exactly as you describe it, since there's no free crossunder at 50th -- but that doesn't matter, since it you can end up anywhere you like).
So, according to the rules, you can take one line in one direction to the next stop (Penn Station or 50th st) and finish the trip on the second line in the same or reverse direction, although I know that doubling back at 50th st is not possible in this scenario.
Thanks for the correction to cover the Grand St. shuttle.
How many other interlockings are operating by the T/O pressing a button like that? Is this commonly under the T/O's control, or is it more commonly done by someone outside the train itself? Do all such interlockings require human intervention, or do some of them operate automatically?
It is remarkable how seldom mistakes occur (such as a D train being sent down 8th Avenue). It is not unheard of, but I believe it is very rare.
While some interlockings may be set up for fully automatic control, because the NYCS does not have a foolproof automated train tracking system, a fully automatic system of train dispatching is not feasible. Furthermore, the complexity of the system with all the possible GO's would also make such a system hard to implement.
Mark
Switch Irons come in various sizes, Baltimore used the 3 foot variety for standard cars up through our Peter Witts, and a smaller 2 foot long one for PCC cars. The PCC's have clips behind the operator's seat for storage, but usually it's just tossed on the platform floor behind the seat as getting it out of the clips is a pain sometimes, hence the "toss on the floor" trick.
Next Saturday, I'm going to catch a 13-Darby car from Center-City and ride the backyards between Yeadon & Darby.
Chuck Greene
Elias
Also some interlocking plants have an automatic feature, in which the machine itself interprets the signal. Many terminals are operated this way for most of the time, turned to manual during rush hours or during putins/layups.
How many other interlockings are operating by the T/O pressing a button like that?
Quite a few. You'll find them at most major "junctions", where train service splits (or has the ability to do so even if its not utilized often) - local and express; yard or mainline; relay or mainline; one terminal or another and so on.
It is remarkable how seldom mistakes occur (such as a D train being sent down 8th Avenue). It is not unheard of, but I believe it is very rare.
The TA doesn't look too kindly on tower operators who send the train down the wrong wroute, and will discipline them. So that's one reason you rarely see that happen.
The other is that we have more than 1 way to identify a train. Even if that train operator on the D punches for the A line (and that happens reasonably often), we have gap sheets that tell us what time that train should be at 59 St, and from that we can basically tell the order in which trains arrive (for example, A-A-D, or A-D-A-D, etc), provided the sheets are correct.
Also in most places:
- where there is a master tower, there are cameras, with usually one pointing at the end sign of the train.
- or -
- smaller towers, like Canal Street or 42/8 can basically look out of the window or at a mirror to tell what train is in the station.
Well, you do have a lot of extra people out there. When the Manhattan Bridge changes occurred in '01 they had a problem with x-extra T/Os punching for wrong lineups when they were on the N one day and the W the next because of the similar equipment (68s). They get confused, and punch for the wrong route. D'oh! I mean, annoyed grunt.
As they always say, it takes 2 to make a wrong route: 1 to give it and 1 to take it.
And don't kill the TW/O.
Qualification or not, people can still make mistakes especially being thrown around like XXL's are.
I wonder what they do nowadays? Then again, more supervisors, I'd expect "authorized personnel chatting me up and distracting me from my official duties" these days. :)
During the trip, the 'instructor' T/O is supposed to impart as much knowledge of the line as is possible to the student, who will promptly forget about three-quarters of it. If I tell you everything I know about the N line - timers, curves, line-ups, etc - how much could you repeat back on the next trip?two weeks later?
It IS amusing though how folks don't seem to think there's much skill involved.
Good (and safe) tower practice is for the TW/O to do the same. Wait for the T/O to punch before lining up the route.
Towers pass information to each other via the Line speaker, which usually is a somewhat direct connection between 3 or 4 towers. Information that should be passed is latenesses, conditions, any trains not moving for any reason and any trains not in place (out of order).
Unfortunately its not always passed by other towers. So I can sit at Nostrand Junction (Utica Ave), expecting a 5 as is on my gap sheets and POP the T/O punches for Utica Ave instead of Flatbush. Had I already had it set up for Flatbush (your ideal situation posted a few posts ago), both I and the T/O could be in deep sh!t. So practice is to wait for the punch then question the train if its not what was expected.
Slow. yes. but it avoids inconveniencing the customers and avoids getting myself in trouble. Hopefully in the future means of reporting such things accurately will be available.
It does not work that way at older mechanical interlockings
because it is physically impossible. Someone has to move
a lever to throw a switch.
If the plant is a pushbutton interlocking (NX or UR) and it
was wired with automatic route request and the automatic feature
is enabled then when the train operator presses the request
button, this causes the interlocking logic to process the request
for a lineup. If the lineup can be safely given, it is established.
At plants where this feature exists, it is usually turned off during
rush hour because of the potential delay to service if each train
has to wait for the route to be established.
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-0/104912551044820.xml
Simon
Swindon UK
Mark
Bill "Newkirk"
THIS
-Robert King
And Bombardier says they are "eager" to resume testing. It's their own fault that he died. I'd sue the hell out of Bombardier, for gross incompetance (uhh, we didnt realize he kpet driving the train, we thought he stopped, even though we didnt tell him to).
Might not be possible. Workers' compensation laws often prohibit injured workers (or the survivors of dead workers) from suing their employers.
AIRTRAIN JFK TO RESUME TESTING THIS MONTH; PASSENGER SERVICE EXPECTED TO BEGIN THIS YEAR; AIRTRAIN SAFETY OVERSIGHT BOARD CREATED
Date: April 15, 2003
Press Release Number: 51-2003
Port Authority Safety Board Issues Report
Click Here to View Report
The Port Authority today announced operational testing of AirTrain JFK will resume this month after the Port Authority Safety Board comprised of senior Port Authority officials determined the September 27, 2002, AirTrain JFK fatal accident – which occurred during system testing by Bombardier Transportation, a member of the consortium of contractors hired to design, build, and ultimately operate and maintain the system – was unrelated to the design and construction of the light-rail system.
The Safety Board also issued a report today that details the accident, its causes and the board’s subsequent recommendations. Among the findings, the investigation showed certain areas of operations, such as communication and training by Bombardier, needed enhancement. Bombardier has implemented or is in the process of implementing the board’s recommendations.
The Safety Board also announced the establishment of an AirTrain Safety Oversight Board to monitor conformance with established safety procedures and current industry standards for the operation and maintenance of AirTrain JFK and AirTrain Newark. The AirTrain Safety Oversight Board, comprised of two agency executives – the Director of PATH and the Director of Operations Services, working with their staffs and consultants – will report to the Executive Director and the chairperson of the Port Authority Board of Commissioners’ Audit Committee.
Passenger service on the AirTrain JFK system is expected to begin later this year between John F. Kennedy International Airport’s Central Terminal Area, and the Howard Beach and Jamaica Station AirTrain terminals.
Port Authority Executive Director Joseph J. Seymour said, "On behalf of the entire Port Authority family, I again wish to convey our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of Mr. Kelvin DeBourgh, Jr., the Bombardier employee who was tragically killed in the accident. The Port Authority family and its partners are presently considering ways to honor the memory of Mr. DeBourgh.
"Understanding the importance of this investigation, the Port Authority’s Safety Board proceeded very deliberately in its research to determine the causes of the accident and to ensure the safe operation of AirTrain JFK. This investigation caused a postponement of the scheduled opening date of the system to the public, but we all understood that this investigation had to be conducted in a thorough manner. After more than six months of careful study, our investigation found the system is sound."
Port Authority Chief Operating Officer Ernesto Butcher said, "We have made a number of recommendations to, and worked closely with, Bombardier to ensure they implement changes in operating rules and procedures to address the causes of last year’s accident. Bombardier is implementing all of our recommendations.
"In order to make the system ready for the public and fully evaluate and verify the validity of the changes that have been made, we must resume testing.
"In addition, the Port Authority continues to work closely with the National Transportation Safety Board as a party to that federal agency’s investigation. The NTSB will continue to monitor the operation with particular focus on the improvements that have been made. We will continue to maintain close communications with the NTSB as we move forward in the process," Mr. Butcher said.
The National Transportation Safety Board is expected to issue a report on the accident later this year.
Port Authority Director of Priority Capital Programs Anthony Cracchiolo noted that Bombardier, which was running a vehicle power-consumption test when the accident occurred last year, has taken a number of organizational and operational steps to augment and strengthen their operations and procedures, and enhance safety during system testing and subsequent passenger service.
During the time operational testing was temporarily suspended, construction continued elsewhere along the system, and all infrastructure and stations along the system are nearing completion.
When AirTrain JFK begins service, passengers will be able to use, free of charge, the six stations in the Central Terminal Area loop for easy connections among all terminals; the Lefferts Boulevard Station for long-term and employee parking; and the Federal Circle Station for car rentals.
Service between the Howard Beach and the Jamaica Station AirTrain terminals and all other stations will cost $5 for a single trip. Monthly passes offering unlimited trips will cost $40. The state-of-the-art terminals at Howard Beach and Jamaica Station will enable airport passengers and employees to make more than 1,500 fast, easy, convenient and reliable connections every day between the airport and the A, E, J and Z subway lines; Long Island Rail Road trains; and buses.
Service from Penn Station in Manhattan to JFK’s terminals via AirTrain JFK is projected to take less than 45 minutes; the trip from midtown Manhattan to JFK can presently take more than two hours by car or taxi. The approximately 8-mile light-rail system is expected to serve 34,000 passengers per day at the start.
The $1.9 billion project uses no state or federal taxes. It is being funded through a combination of Port Authority funds and revenue from an existing $3 surcharge on departing passengers at JFK under the Passenger Facility Charge program.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey operates some of the busiest and most important transportation links in the region. They include John F. Kennedy International, Newark Liberty International, LaGuardia and Teterboro airports; the George Washington Bridge; the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; the three bridges between Staten Island and New Jersey; the PATH rapid-transit system; the Downtown Manhattan Heliport; Port Newark; the Elizabeth-Port Authority Marine Terminal; the Howland Hook Marine Terminal on Staten Island; the Brooklyn Piers/Red Hook Container Terminal; and the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. The agency also owns the 16-acre World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan. The Port Authority is financially self-supporting and receives no tax revenue from either state.
This is not the NTSB report, which I presume will still released later.
There are some items that are usually present in NTSB reports that are missing from the PA's internal report. I hope they are present in the NTSB's report because the PA's report is very limited in its scope.
If they didn't know, I'd be VERY worried about riding it ... even in manual mode, there should have been some indication or alert that the train was NOT where it should have been or that it hadn't slowed down or stopped where it should have. Tells me there's something amiss that was neglected in that report. Wonder if NTSB has caught onto that angle. After all, since the PA said that was the problem, I don't consider it to be a minor one or a "whoopsie." :(
And those systems werre purposefully disabled for this particular test. Truthfully, I would do that too, only I wouldn't have done it the way they did (and they ackowledge that).
"If they didn't know, I'd be VERY worried about riding it ... even in manual mode, there should have been some indication or alert that the train was NOT where it should have been or that it hadn't slowed down or stopped where it should have. Tells me there's something amiss that was neglected in that report. Wonder if NTSB has caught onto that angle."
I don't think that anfle is there. As they acknowledged, systems were disabled to test very specific conditions. The one system which should not have been disabled, though, was the governor. That was a bad move.
So your fear is misplaced.
What I'm concerned about is that nobody in the ivory tower noticed that the train had travelled PAST where it was supposed to stop, and if I read the report correctly, this happened several times. It SUGGESTS that they were unaware of where the train WAS and no mention was made of cautioning the "operator" to stop a long way ahead of the pount where the curve began. There was mention of "miscommunication" and "not recognizing the landmark" where the train should have been stopped.
What I'm wondering is that if the train had passed the point of no return prior, was there any indication or warning to those conducting or managing the test that somebody'd better make sure the "operator" had a better idea of the "point of no return?" Does this explain what I meant a bit better? That it would appear that nobody knew WHERE the train was with such a highly automated system that should have known its position on the track?
My concern is based on an incident that happened last year at Newark where the automated system was disconnected by a wayward foamer and put into a manual mode. I would have expected that even in this "cutout mode" there would still have been SOME mechanism that would have prevented the train from entering that curve at the speed it did regardless of the "operating mode" of the train, nor any apparent awareness of the train going PAST where it should have been stopped under the test in progress. THAT'S what's giving me the goosebumps ...
I can think of at least one scenario why they would not have such a display.
This is a CBTC system. It may not have any track circuits, except to protect interlockings. The method for manual control may just stop communications to the central computer and send in commands that are based on the operator's input. The result is that manual operation becomes a stealth operation so far as the control center is concerned.
I think I'll travel on a system where there's a professional in the front.
Sadly, this train did have an operator in the front.
If somr form of manual operation is ever contemplated, I'd think they place yellow tags along the ROW, indicating the maximum speed. I think that was the PA's fifth rcommendation.
The PA did say there were no standard ways to simulate a loaded train. How's that again? :-)
I'm also concerned with how crash-worthy the rolling stock is. They did ban wooden cars in tunnels after Malbone St even though their use did not cause the accident. The PA has been very careful to avoid the broader implications in their report.
But what was written up in that PR puffpiece disturbs me to NO end. :(
Once again, sorry for my big mouth there. :(
You're 100% right there.
I recall an early post where I criticized a poster who said he knew the family and said the dead man had not received any training, and was just a customer service rep. At the time, I did so because the poster could not present any supporting evidence for this claim.
The PA's report vindicates that poster to a great extent. He accepted word out of faith for what he was told in an uncorroborrated manner, but as luck would have it, he guessed right.
Now, the PA has some fixing to do. They've started doing it; you made some excellent points about what they should still do.
However, this train will operate.
But I *am* saying I won't ride it because I see some core flaws here. Not that it matters - if I wanted to actually FLY (which I am loathe to do anyway) I would probably prefer to get a flight out of Montreal to other continents - just a personal choice since Canada is less likely to cut corners on airline safety than our own FAA. But I still have concerns about what little I know of how Airtrain's idiot proofing is designed.
Ah, more cynicism. OK, cool.
But if you like flying out of Montreal, is Amtrak still offering the "Montrealer" to get you there (oh, wait, you live close enough to practically hoof it, don't you?)
My dad and I were booked on the Montrealer 10 years ago - and then the rail strike hit. So we went to the Poconos instead.
Bummer. Dad speaks and reads fluent French and we would have had a ball there (but we had a good time anyway at a B & B in Jim Thorpe., PA.
But yeah, I'm close enough that I could hoof it if I needed to. Besides, upstaters are WELCOME in Quebec - just bring plenty of dead presidents to hand out as souvenirs. Causes outbreaks of genuine English. Chacun Canadien autour ici. Nous sommes nord de Yonkers. :)
It appears from the pictures of the crash that the car did remain largely intact despite the speeds involved. Had it been loaded with passengers - and of course no concrete weights - there would have been many injuries but probably no deaths.
Modern cars have crumple zones that sacrifise the car and direct the impact away from the passenger cabin
The steal monsters of the 1950 and 60's showed less damage to the car but inflicted more damage to the passengers
The crash pictures showed doors that were ripped apart. People standing in their near vicinity would have been thrown out of the car to their almost certain death.
1) Why didn't anyone AFAIK determine safe, equilibrium,and overturning speeds for these cars BEFORE the test and notify the operator of these values, since the PA says excessive speed, not unsecured ballast, caused the cars to derail?
2) At EMS, there is a STRICT rule stating that NOTHING in the patient care area is to be left unsecured. There's a reason for that! Imagine an unsecured oxygen bottle flying across the patient compartment when that lady applying makeup (while driving) hits the ambulance. That oxygen bottle hitting the patient is all it takes for a stable patient to instantly become a critical one. This is EXACTLY what happened to Mr. DeBourgh when the train derailed and stonewalled. The bad part is that they didn't even need an engineer to tell them those concrete blocks should've been secured. Common sense should have told Bombardier and the PA that.
3) Bad things happen when critical systems are cut out, the same way bad things happen when communications break down. I thought 9/11 would have taught us all the importance of good communications (at the WTC the repeater was atop the tower, and when it fell, so did our comms) and redundancy, but I guess a few still need to learn this.
I know this is all Monday Morning QB'ing, but still, I think this goes right back to SAFETY and COMMON SENSE.
Lets remeber that airtrain internal systems may have not been fully operational and with only one train on the track such a tracking system being monitores is not as important. Also the manual over ride probably ment shutting down the central contol and monitoring systems
All they had to do was put a red flag into the ground to tell the operator where to stop. The landmark for the stoping zone was not picked up by the operator
Since he missed the stoping point before, it was dumb not to make the stoping zone more obvious
I don't buy the argument though that if you disconnect a train from automatic train control systems that it should become a stealth fighter, disappearing completely off the radar. Don't buy that at ALL. What happens if a repeat of the Newark Airport incident were to occur where a foamer (who did no real harm) and had no idea of what they were doing were to pry the control panel open and put it into manual mode? What about vandals or (gasp!) "terrorists" messing with the train once in revenue service?
Let's assume for argument's sake that all safeties on the train were completely cutout (no wayside trips, nothing) ... the "train" should STILL have been visible on control's screen and as it continued towards the curve with no indication of slowing down, there should have been a provision to trip power to it. Something, anything.
So with all due respect, I don't consider it safe regardless of what was cut in, cut out, or existing human error. Strikes me as a poor design, VERY poor supervision especially if the train completely vanished off "radar" ...
You don't have enough information to reach that conclusion.
"Strikes me as a poor design, VERY poor supervision especially if the train completely vanished off "radar" ..."
Reserve your judgment until you find out more (NTSB report and further details from the PA). If you're interested you can contact the PA or Bombardier and ask them if they will be releasing more details.
That all said, that the conditions that came together, for whatever reason, WORRY me ... if they were testing for an electrical overload condition, placing metal between the power rail and ground properly calculated to draw a certain amount of current could have reliably determined a trip point, but that falls into instrumentation and measurement which is also beyond my pay grade at this time.
Therefore, I offer this official disclaimer ... "opinions expressed by Unca Selkirk are OPINIONS ONLY, any "facts" will be linked to an independent source that can be read and interpreted by the reader, kids do not try this at home and as always, no wagering." :)
And yes, the final report of NTSB will suffice. What was presented in Newsday though should NOT have been printed in the first place as it is even MORE lacking in information and facts than my opinions.
Have you considered the possibility that the train was perfectly visible on the central monitoring system, but nobody was looking?
PS. I also have no facts. Just speculating.
AGAIN, I'm ONLY speculating here - but an UNUSUAL operating mode where things got cut out to do a test would be expected to result in insane amounts of "supervision" ... but the reason WHY I speculate is that according to what little information there WAS, this "operator" went past the point of no return at least once prior to the incident and given what I know of how equipment testing goes, and given that safety devices were disabled, there should have been a LOT more squawk than appears to have happened.
Experienced operator or not, you just don't allow a train to go barreling into a curve once. You certainly don't permit it to happen AGAIN. I'm not claiming to know ANY answers here, but the old Unca Selkirk qwap detector was ringing so loud, it fell off the wall. :(
You can not compare testing on NYCT trackage that has trains on adjacent tracks running and connections to revenue tracks with the testing on airtrain where one and only one train us running.
In the airtrain situation, it is likely that the only part of the system that was activated was the power to the tracks. Train supervision and signaling most likely was disabled to allow the highe manual opertion mode
Yes they were blind. But I see nothing in the report that says that they didn't have the ability to see what was going on. Why couldn't it be that they just weren't bothering to look, because they were busy doing something else?
But it does appear to come down to a train being operated at excess speed into a curve, and even those who haven't had school car should have been aware that curves and speed and centrifugal forces are not a combination that should be allowed to occur. If it's TRUE (again, doubts) that the train was observed once operating at speed past where it should have stopped, the testing should have stopped there until everyone was absolutely clear about where it was to be stopped and where it was NOT to proceed past. And someone should have been watching to make certain that the train didn't pass that point, even if it meant another "customer service rep" on the ground looking up the rails to shout "STOP!" into a radio.
You don't cut corners with multiple tons of rolling steel. :(
But I am slightly optimistic that it's a screw-up in the failure to use existing safety systems, rather than in the absence or circumventability of those systems. I suspect they COULD have observed and stopped the test, but didn't bother to out of inattention.
Lets be honest here. it is not very hard even with 10 minutes of training to push a lever and make a train go and make the train stop.
Just as it is with driving. it is fairly simple with noone around and not having to worry about tossing passengers around while stoping at the proper point.
The problem lies with the project test manager. He is responcible for making sure that the driver knew where it was safe to do the speed test and where to stop. The stoping zones should have been clearly marked instead of being a off track landmark that can be missed especially at 50 mph.
Reread what I said. The governor should NOT have been disconnected.
I agree with you, also, that the control center hoyuld have had a means of tracking the vehicles even with the usual sustems disconnected.
Non of this, however, has anthing to do with day to day operations.
Derailing trains is not part of day-to-day operation. Crashing trains is not part of day-to-day operation. Should we go back to coaches with wooden bodies?
#3 West End Jeff
:0)
#3 West End Jeff
I think Jimmy Breslin's column "City Should Exile Dogs" will anger many of his readers who are animal lovers.
I wonder what happened to Jimmy Breslin that made him want to kick a dog?
Er, dogs, being on leashes, go where they are brought to go. They don't have a choice in the matter - do it here, or pop goes the bladder. I'd advocate kicking the owner off the platform.
Mr. Breslin fails to mention how he feels about the humans who urinate against pillars :)
What's your favorite example of a station that would be configured very differently if it were built today? There are a number of stations on the neglected Nassau St line to which this applies, but the best example is perhaps Chambers Street: four platforms (there was once a fifth) and four tracks. Only two platforms and two tracks are used today.
No, because of heavy traffic coming in from the railroads. That is wht 42 Street is also a local station.
Willets Point-Shea Stadium
Judgment reserved
Bway Junction
Atlantic Av (IRT Brooklyn Line & Canarsie Line)
Bway Jct (L level) is just a plain problem. Atlantic Avenue will be reconfigured soon, and the Snediker Avenue El will be demolished. All trains will soon use the westernmost platform only.
Brighton Beach?
No.
Bowery (and Canal Street, you forgot that)
These stations are undergoing realignment. The Queens-bound platforms will soon be abandoned.
Essex St
Yes, this station was a trolley terminal. It now would have only one wide island platform.
137 St
Yes, it would serve as a reverse point (for customers and trains with ease if there were two island platforms.
In asking the question, I was not presuming that any station was poorly designed. Most of them probably were valid at the time.
OTOH, if anyone wants to suggest station designs that were wrong from the beginning, feel free. But you need to demonstrate (which is much harder) that the design was an inappropriate response to the facts of the time, not merely that the designers lacked clairvoyance.
If Union Square weren't built on a curve, requiring the gap filler panels, dwell time could be reduced by 15 seconds.
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/pix/n08_27.jpg
Picture is Euston, Northern Line City branch, which was rebuilt years ago, but Angel survived with this type of narrow island platform until the 1990s, and some stations at the south end of the Northern Line remain in this format. Its OK for lightly used stations, but a complete disaster for busy stations.
Wall St is about 12' wide. What keeps it moderately safe is lots of stairwells, and pillars to keep between you and the train, so if you get jostled you just bump into a pillar.
http://www.dewi.ca/
Euston would not have looked like this since the 1960s when the Victoria Line opened.
Train traffic? You're crazy. Under normal operations, four lines terminate there. It might be possible to get by with only four tracks (run Brighton trains onto the Sea Beach and Culver trains onto the West End, and treat Stillwell as a through station). But two tracks?!
Of course, right now, it is a simple two-track terminal, with a third bypass track off in the distance.
Those trains aren't needed for traffic at that station, but trains have to turn somewhere. All end stations have far more trains than they need for the traffic. Even 179th or Parsons/Archer doesn't need all the trains it has for its own traffic.
Come to think of it, the shuttle presumably doesn't have many more trains than it needs at either terminal.
My mind was on the outlying end, where of course the 7 is also very busy because of the large number of buses unloading there.
And I'm sure the front cars of the E were crush loaded coming into WTC but I'm equally sure the back cars had empty seats.
The 7 is busy in Flushing but locals come into the station mostly empty.
A couple of thirties-era IND examples:
Bedford-Nostrand has two island platforms and a middle track in the style of lines with peak-hour express service (Flushing, Pelham, Concourse). This is highly unusual on the otherwise two-track Crosstown line. Second System IND plans had another line continuing east on Lafayette Avenue branching off from where the existing line turns north on Marcy Avenue. Of course, this never came to fruition.
Why only the unusued center track appears to branch off onto the unbuilt extension is not clear. Perhaps there was intention to have switches from the two existing local tracks as well so as to continue east on Lafayette in a three-track formation.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn today functions as a junction of two two-track lines with one line (Crosstown) occupying the two center tracks, and the other (Fulton) the two outer. It looks exactly like a typical four-track/two-island platform express station. Jay Street has the same layout. There are two additional island platforms and four additional tracks, half to the north of the revenue tracks and half to the south. Neither are normally in regular use.
Supposedly the south platform was used specifically for the premium-fare Aqueduct specials, with its own special turnstile. One or both extra platforms were used for the 1936-46 shuttle to Court Street. Fantrips in and out of the museum still use the extreme northern and southern tracks. Both extra platforms are popular with directors of films and music videos set in the subway.
An obvious example is Queensboro Plaza. :-)
Tom
Also, the area now being planned for the Fulton Transit Center (of course, the TA is going to fix that).
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
From the above page (look near top) are other linked pages that go into even more detail on all the aspects of how it all works ...
But I hope that answered the question for ya at least.
Next, as the train continues accelerating, the control equipment puts the resistances back in series with the motors but also changes the connection configuration of the traction motors so this situation is present: All resistances are connected in series to the group of motors which are connected in parallel to eachother (instead of being connected in series with eachother and then connected in series with the control resistances).
This point, at which the motors change from being connected with eachother in series to being connected in parallel with eachother, is referred to as transition.
And then the acceleration continues up to full parallel and then field shunting can be introduced...
-Robert King
As for 'transition,' Selkirk is most correct. With R142 AC traction motors, transition occurs in steps which are heard as 'the traction song' if you are nearby. The motor winding connections do not change
but how the IGBT invertor 'timing' is readily heard like shifting gears. What the Propulsion Control Electronics package is trying to do is provide 1st point (dead torque to move,) second point (getting going,) to third point (going.) You can simulate the condition by driving a deck screw into a piece of pine with a VSR battery operated drill.
What you cannot simulate is 'Ho Ho Ho Down In the Hole BIE cover your ears In the Hole.' Nothing like a jerk dumping a trainset unannounced when you're inspecting a brake package. CI Peter
---Dave
Happy Holiday to all.
I'd say even Purim is important, even if it's not biblically ordained.
If you want to discuss theology, feel free to e-mail me. I do want to keep this as on topic as possible ;-)
Oddly enough, the story of Purim is found in the book of Ester in the Catholic Bible.
Guess you didn't learn it too well < G >.
Both the Christian and Jewish holidays move around according to how the moon orbits the planet. The civil calendar has 28 to 31 days in its months, the moon goes through its 4 phases in 28 days always.
Required Transit Content: All streetcar transfers go by the days of the standard months - always.
HAPPY EASTER
OR A
HAPPY PASSOVER
Mandatory transit: Enjoy your families on these holidays, and take the subway to see them if possible....
Dunno if this counts as transit ... on Easter Sunday the ankle-biters and I are driving up to my mother's in Connecticut (my wife has to work), and we might take the Bridgeport-Pt.Jefferson ferry back. Dang thing's so expensive when you take a car on it, but it saves a lot of driving. Have to decide by tomorrow and make reservations if I'm going to take it, because the vehicle spaces fill up fast on holidays.
It would be wonderful beyond belief ... and the possibility of its construction is also beyond belief.
In any event, I don't see that the LIE has extra capacity, truckers aren't going to take a route that's already heavily trafficked unless it's MUCH shorter. The cross-sound route would also be more expensive as I can imagine a cross-sound bridge would have tolls that give the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel ($10) a run for its money. I wouldn't be surprised to see such a bridge charge as much as the Confederation Bridge between New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island ($38.50CDN).
The bridge will add development to Suffolk County, which still has plenty of room for development, and THAT is what will cause traffic to increase, if anything. New development and higher property rates=higher tax revenues=more money for roads and RAILROADS. I can see such a bridge spurring a re-extension of the PJ line to Wading River and more electrification to Eastern LI.
Of course, the possibility of such a bridge being built is highly unlikely in today's environment, but things like this are cyclical. I can envision a new public works building boom in the future, the kind that built the NYC subway and fueled Robert Moses, although I'd prefer it to be without a Robert Moses II.
Or even better, a rail line across the bridge.
But there's one thing this would do: If you run intercity trains on such a bridge, then you achieve the LIRR's original founding purpose: Service to Boston.
I do not wish to live on the Moon, however I am open to living on a terraformed Mars. The latter oppurtunity will likely not be available to me, the earlier one will be.
We had a long discussion of this several years ago. Paul Matus said the goal would be an improvment that would be a big time saver for people and trucks on Long Island traveling to/from New England, but not for others passing through.
I came up with a ferry from an expressway right to the ferry terminal. Ie. extend the LIE to Orient Point, perhaps as a two lane limited access road (super two) with occasional passing zones, and run trains over to a ferry terminal near an expressway on the other shore. Big time saver for Long Island, but not enough to take the LIE if you can take I-95 or I-84.
Extending a branch off the LIE to Shoreham would be cheaper and easier, but the ferry ride would be longer, and ferries move slowly.
Yom Kippur can not fall on Sunday, Tuesday, or Friday
As a result, the first day of Rosh Hashannah can not fall on a Sunday, Wednesday, or Friday
Passover always starts two calendar days before Rosh Hashannah. As a result, the first day of Passover can not be Friday, Monday, or Wednesday.
The days I refer to are the actual days, each "day" starts the night before.
Not true... although it works out that way this year. Passover is seven or eight days, depending on where and how you observe (Orthodox and Conservative Jews observe for eight, Reform observe for seven in the Diaspora; not sure what the rules are in Israel), so there will be overlap regardless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Nick
(Keep in mind that the Jewish calendar, as originally set up, was defined each month by witnesses of the moon and each year by the Sanhedrin, who met to decide whether to add a leap month. Now that we no longer have a Sanhedrin, everything is predetermined according to a 19-year cycle, of which 7 are leap years. See the Hebrew Calendar Science and Myths page for all the gory details and more. I don't know when the date for Easter was set, but it may predate the adoption of the 19-year cycle, in which case it probably runs a different algorithm.)
Easter is always the first Sunday AFTER the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox. Having fixed Easter, you then count back 40 days excluding Sundays to find Ash Wednesday, the beginning of the Lenten season.
Best Wishes to your family also !
Peter, for a better ide of what is being sold, go here - http://www.rainmall.com/pesach/prohibition.html
The usual arrangement is that the non-Jew buys it outright at the beginning of the holiday (actually, the morning before, since the prohibition on owning chometz begins shortly before noon), but the contract allows payment to be delayed until after the the holiday. (The chometz is his, though, even though it's being stored in someone else's home.) After Pesach, the non-Jew has to pay full market value for his chometz -- or he can sell it back at the same price.
HAPPY AND HEALTHY PASSOVER
Shalom.
(And don't forget to grab a RF window on your way home this afternoon.)
I'm sure more to follow...
wayne
I betcha the guy in the truck was on his cellphone and looking at hand written directions.
Another option for many mid-sized entities (comapnies, cities, etc.) is self-insurance with re-insurance. For examples, the entity pays for all claims up to the first $10 million in a year. But they have inurance for all payouts in excess of $10 million.
That way, they avoid the overhead of insurance company involvement in every little claim, but they have protection against financial disaster if they are sued for $1 billion or whatever.
Apparently motorists don't take light rail crossings seriously without full controls. There have been some reported LRV-motor vehicle collisions on the HBLR which, with the exception of two fully-equipped crossings on the West End branch, have no controls.
I can't speak for any other cities with light rail, but the 'Tijuana Trolley' from downtown San Diego has MANY fully-equipped crossings along its ROW. Maybe the fact that it closely parellels I-5 and crosses many streets that have interchanges immediately adjacent to the ROW has something to do with.
Either that, or an ultimatum: grade-separation or permanent bustitution.
But of course that's logic and unfortunately logic isn't a forte for many people.
So far I haven't seen anyone mention that the Orange Street crossing is protected by a regular old street traffic light. Unless operations have changed recently, the trolleys stop at each side of the crossing and wait for the light to change. So it doesn't matter if the guy wasn't familiar with the area, he had to have run a red light. Would crossing gates make any difference to a guy who just wasn't paying attention or thought he could beat the train? Nope!
Its installation would be for NJT's lawyers (and it would add some protection).
The outcome however is probably going to be an over reaction and gates will end up being installed at this crossing.
The bar for motor vehicle driving has been lowered another notch.
Nappy
I wondered if there was a similar accident when the PCC's ran ?
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
New York City BVE Authority
Jimmy
He also said PATH should add on to the R-142 order, since the Class K cars were also 51 feet long. But alas, there has to be one major difference. If R-142 type cars were to run on PATH, they must have the smaller profile wheels that PATH uses for their PA-1,2,3,4 and Class K work motors. I don't know if this calssifies as a fantasy, but when in Rome........
Bill "Newkirk"
Metro North
Hudson Division(NY-ALB/RENS)
Location: Croton-Harmon Station
A new service has been initiated for Hudson Line trains to operate to Albany-Rensselear NY, replacing Amtrak Empire service between NY Penn and Albany. All connections to the ALB/RENS trains are made at Croton. All Albany trains are powered by F40 diesels and Comet II push/pull fleets. Poughkeepsie trains have been rerouted from Grand Central to Penn Station to compensate for the Albany trains. No direct service between NY and Albany. Stops served by Albany trains(Croton-Harmon, Beacon, Poughkeepsie, Hyde Park, Rhinecliff, Hudson, and Albany-Rensselear).
Now the scenario:
Train 1991 from Albany to Croton Harmon has a scheduled meet with 6688 from Penn Station to Poughkeepsie at CP 40 in Peekskill. The Westbound(North) track is having tie replacements done at the Manitou Station and under the Bear Mountain Bridge. Single track rules are in effect between Peekskill CP40 and Cold Springs. Behind 6688 is CSX Freight Train "Selk360" bound for Schenectady. In front of 1991 is Train 1575 from Poughkeepsie to NY Penn. At CP 40, 1575 loses power right at the interlocking, blocking the Westbound 6688. Selk360 is being held at Croton North, but being such a long train, blocks out Harmon Yard approaches. 1991 is approaching Garrison Station. How would you go about sending the relief engine to rescue 1575? Note: Both Harmon and Poughkeepsie have engines standing by.
Don't miss it at midnight if you missed this one!!
The animated bits were hokey, but it was nice to see moving trains and tunnels here and there. Don't get to see much of that anymore living upstate. And given how the TA's been lately, I'm not about to take the civil service test again to get some cab time. Heh.
They said the wreck on the Williamsburg Bridge involved a "J" train that ran a signal and rear-ended an "N" train!!!!
What most of us think of a computer is the PC or Mac we have sitting on our desks. A computer is just something that electronically decides at minimum, one little thing. It could be a 3/4 inch cube. But it "computes" an action to take as a result of circumstances and input.
I agree, but I still feel it's better than the torch. What would you rather have, a "grave" to look at one day on TV, or picking up a can one day and thinking, "This looks familiar, I think I rode on this can down 7th Ave."
Think of it this way. Think of Titanic (certainly not the human tragedy of it, but the ship itself). Is it interesting to look at underwater photos and film of the Titanic? No one ever thinks about the sistership, the Olympic, which was cut up for scrap.
The sunk redbirds, as opposed to all the other NYC scrapped cars, are like that on a much smaller scale. They live on....
---Choo Choo
Considering what I read on their website, it was worth the run down three flights of stairs and back up to TiVo it.
Chuck Greene
Just another bunch of Discovery Channel HOGWASH where they couldn't keep the facts straight.
First they said the system has 7000 cars, then they said it has 6000 cars.
They tried to make it sound like the PATH line affected in the WTC collapse was NYC Subway.
I caught a lot of stuff wrong....and I was busy fixing dinner!! Wonder if I was paying full attention to the show....
Trying to please subtalkers is a hopeless task for any widely-viewed dog and pony show for the public who wouldn't know better if they were showing Amtrak coaches as subway cars. I was happy enough with it.
The repeated renderings of M-1s in the subway (looks like Grand Central on the 7) is disturbing.
---Choo Choo
Agreed. The max speed of 2nd Av. Subway will probably be 55mph or less.
Yeah, purists can obsess all they want, the producers got paid, the advertisers said "good job" and everybody went to the corner bar for the "wrap party" once the editing was done and the witch was in the can. And as we'd say in television, "NEXT!" ...
The M-1 clones done by an animation studio in Korea and sold by weight ("I'll take three feet of news, please") still looks more like subway than any of the N guage flotsom running on my desktop ... and I'll bet the writers, producers, and everyone else involved in the production (aside from a contract cameraperson who got woken up at 3AM after a "go picture") got told to go "bag some shots of the NYC subway, we're doing a show" have never set FOOT in NYC.
Sometimes ya just gotta be grateful that the shots of the subway weren't the same Bombardier T-1's on Toronto, nor did Wierd Al Yankovich appear anywhere in the show. :)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
Hoover Dam is a great example of that.
Not to mention much of the building of the IND in the 30's.
John
---Choo Choo
Oh yeah, here are some frame grabs of a car I've never seen in active service.....
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
Mark
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
While some information was sort of out of context( us SubTalkers notice these things), I think this show was all right. But I wonder,we saw IRT Low V's, BMT Standards, but not one of Selkirk's R1 thru R9's. What's up with that?
The program included a shot of a large mausoleum in Woodlawn Cemetery where he and his wife were buried.
I never visited the cemetery itself. Is its entrance near the 4 terminal at Bainbridge Road, and where is the mausoleum?
"Blue blood" and "rich and famous" are certainly not synonymous. Blue bloods are "old money" WASPS who look down on everyone. No matter how much wealth and celebrity they attain, the likes of Arnold Schwartzenegger, Teddy Kennedy, Michel Jordan and Bill Gates will never be blue bloods.
It's a very impressive cemetery, with many famous occupants.
I was impressed by the features of the car, since this was the first time I've ridden a Comet V before. The large windows only do a good job of letting more sunlight in, making the inside hotter. The individual headrests are hard, but the seats are slanted already slightly so it doesn't mean a big deal. I like the high-tech, two-fast short and deep "beeps" before the manual message turns on.
The announcements, however, were very loud, and it sounded as if the conductor used a radio to speak into the microphone instead of him speaking directly.
The car had minor problems on its interior door. The door couldn't manage to stay closed, and it repeated the 'sliding open-then-close' procedure slowly. The yellow, green LED-lit button for the interior doors give it a sense of science fiction.
The wheels, in my perception, were louder than usual even with the interior doors closed.
The 'eee-ooo' tone when the doors close remind me of the icky Comet IB's (or the Arrow I's), although they bring me those summer memories.
I saw this same trainset that this car was part of heading back to NY near Metropark around 7:50p. I took the 11:34a from Metuchen.
Questions:
1) Why were the car annoucements louder than usual?
2) Do conductors and T/C's use the traditional 'turn the key, press the button and speak' method on the Comet V's or another method? The radio-like tone makes me wonder.
3) Do Comet V's still have rusty wheels or is it just my perception?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
After only a few months, the automatic bulkhead doors aren't working properly, the electronic signs are broken, and they are having trouble with the trucks. Otherwise, they are lovely pieces of equipment!
As far as the PA's are concerned, the volume is pre-set, but mechanical people can adjust it if there is a problem reported on a conductor's 1021 form. And yes, the conductors and T/C's use the traditional 'turn the key, press the button and speak' method. The bad audio is just bad audio. Just another "fine feature" of the Comet V!
DO NOT USE THIS DOOR
(normal picture with the two cars with the man in the middle crossed out)
Riding between cars kills more riders than all other accidents combined.
I am sure it is referring to subway accidents. All letters were white on a black background.
Is this sticker common?
Also, on a R46 car on the V at Lex Av. - 53rd St., I saw in place of "Do not hold doors" sticker a "Do not bomb Iraq" with the exact same font as the original sticker. It was only affixed on two doors of the third set.
Where did commuters or the public get this sticker?
wayne
An off-hand question:
What is the name of the yard outside of the #6 line near Castle Hill Av. and Zerega Av.? (I think this is the place, but I might be off by a station stop or two)
I'm still not sure why the platforms were never lengthened.
(Its northerly neighbor is rank 369, incidentally.)
(#2) Westchester Yard. It's between Middletown Road and Westchester Square.
wayne
Is it that the whole complex is divided, like Coney and 180/Unionport? Or is one or the other an entire yard that I haven't found yet? Which one is @ Westchester Square?
And the yard on the 6 is Westchester.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/irt/irtdiv.gif
It shows a runaround track for s/b service coming out of the Bronx going to Manhattan.
What advantages do inboard bearings have over the standard system? Why didnt the TA build their new trains with inboard bearings? (like the R131?)
Inboard bearing of R-110
Standard outboard bearing
So the M1 is considered light enough to run on inboard bearings, but NYC subway cars are not (although other subway cars, like Kawasaki's Philadelphia Broad Street Subway line cars, have them...
I still want to know what is the advantage of an inboard bearing.
But the thing was with BUDD PIONEER trucks the were first used on R32 on cars 3949/3948 im takeing this info form an NYC subway book
Budd Delivered 3 pairs of those trucks but due to lack of technology to improve the weight distribution since it was an experimental design! After the third pair cannibalized to keep the other 2 working and after about 3 or four mounts they were changed for the standard castled iron trucks with outboard bearings!
But the new one the ones that are used on the 110bs 143s are very improved since as Mike pointed out they distribute weight more equally with the an aircushion style suspension system!
Hope this Helps!
Vlad
Vlad
Unless your name is really Jack, and you happen to be sitting in a box while posting.
:0)
So got to go!
Vlad
With an outboard bearing truck, the weight of the car body has
to be transferred from the center of the truck to the outside of
the wheels. This requires a heavier truck. A typical SMEE truck
has the entire load weight resting on the truck bolster, which
in turn is suspended from the truck frame by heavy swing links,
then the truck frames rest on the equalizer bars through springs,
and finally the equalizer bars rest on the journal bearings.
All of these heavy unsprung parts means a hard and noisy ride.
Inboard trucks are lighter and quieter. The trouble is, every time
the NYCT system has tried them (or, I should say, every time
the BOT or TA, because the BMT had some success with them) they
develop cracks. That same lightness makes them flimsier and
less able to withstand poor track conditions or poor maintenance.
Would it be possible to build a stronger truck with an inboard bearing?
Journal bearings have to hold up to quite a bit of pounding.
And not only on trains.
Just for interest, if you're into mechanical engineering, check this out
They do tend to ride poorly, at best. My guess is because of high unsprung weight, there's a lot of stuff between the wheel and the suspension elements. Lots of weight.
The Budd design was supposed to be light (it was), low maintenance (it was), quieter (questionable - they don't rattle but wheel noise is quite high), and well riding (they don't, even on good track). It dates to the late 40's, and was based off of earlier patents. It supposed to be very good at staying on even marginal track.
A design that was great in the 50's, but lousy by today's standards. The more modern swing arm designs that are near universal in Europe and common even in the US, are superior. I don't think inboard was ever really used over there, either.
Now guess what PBCO stands for.
More than you wanted to know.
Mark
Thanks for the Wabco printout. CI peter
You missed 'Parking Brake Release.' Simply, each car has one truck
has two tread brake units with parking brakes. All trainsets, including freightlines, have TWO air brake lines. One line, brake cylinder, contains air pressure regulated by the operator that controls whether the brakes are on or off. The other line, brake pipe, is maintained by the trainset at a constant pressure beyond 90 PSI. If there is a leak or trainset brakes in emergency, loss of pressure in this line automatically engages emergency brakes. If the train sits somewhere for a long time, bladders in the parking brake units collapse and the two parking brake units per car use spring pressure to hold wheels in leiu of air pressure. 'Parking Brake Release' mechanically disingages upon pulling the lever.
Sounds complicated but is simple. Operator charges car, can release all brakes in trainset. One car has stuck brakes, pull SBCO. Brakes release, pressure problems, pull PBR. Train still stuck...call OnTheJuice.
The SBCO is used to cut out a defective electronics package
by venting the pilot pressure line. Emergency braking is
still functional if called for. The BCO cuts out both systems.
The PBCO, located in a different place, cuts out the moronic
spring-applied, air-released parking brake.
Is this action necessary to maintain stopping power immediately after a BIE (ie my question is, once you've gone BIE, what is the point of an automatic system restoring air pressure. Dn't you have to reset the emergency brake first?)
R130=R110a
R131=R110b
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
til next time
1) On both ways to/from Brooklyn/Queens, the motorman shut off the main light switch, leaving the sunlight to light the rest of the way to Far Rockaway. Does this happen normally on other A trains? (note: my way to/from the Rockaways was on the same train! I boarded R32 #3511 and #3539 (IIRC for 3539) on the way back and toward Rockaway Park respectively.
2) On the long, 3.5-mile stretch between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, there are numerous, short, metal structures with big yellow "tabs" that have a message regarding "grating." What are these peculiar structures and why are they placed in short increments?
3) What is the total speed reached on the 3.5-mile stretch? I thought we went fast most of the time except over the bridge.
Off-hand questions:
4) What is the black, round, cylindrical shaped object in the undercarriage of R44's? It is located in the center of the car. They have dates written on them in orange chalk.
5) What is the gray box that feature a white sticker that has a group of black, hexagonal shapes scrunched together with a red hexagon on the top-right of the sticker? This is found 3/4 of the way to the right of the car, and is found on every R44 car.
6) Are the box, shaped structures with small, metal circular objects woven by metal wires the dynamic brake plates?
I did not know that 3538/9 had come home from Jamaica. BTW, most operators on A trains do NOT do this, despite signs telling them to do so.
The gratings I have seen placed at various places for clear-up to be done by track workers. This especially became important when the R143s did their burn tests on that third, unsignaled track.
On an R38, I have seen trains reach 46 mph.
I can't answer the other 3 questions, maybe someone who works at a subway car shop or other transit personnel can help me out here.
I also had the railfan window on the 7 line on the way back from Main St. - Flushing. It was fun to see what the motorman sees. The signals changing, track changing, etc.
The trains aren't burn testing on that track. That is a track for testing a new kind of power facility. I don't remember the specifics, maybe someone else can elaborate.
Oh Man, I gotta get out there, thats nice for the sun to come in.
"3) What is the total speed reached on the 3.5-mile stretch? I thought we went fast most of the time except over the bridge. "
How fast did you think yall were going? I would like to get out there one day, I think they get at about 45 mph
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Its supposed to be done on all lines that have part of the line which is elevated for more than 5 minutes, between the hours of 0900 and 1600 (0900 and 1700 in the summer months).
Many crew members don't do it because they tend to forget to turn the lights back on. To avoid this problem they never turn them off.
The motorman on the way back to 207th turned the lights off and we traveled in total darkness until Grant Av.; that's when the conductor said "give me some lights".
I enjoy the lights being off, though, when the train travels outside.
We left Penn Station about 5-6 minutes late on the 7:14p express to Trenton, (good thing since I was rushing to the train from the E line) and instead of doing the full-throttle speed to Metropark, we stop before the station and watch an AMTRAK train pass us on track 3 northbound. I noticed a minute later a NJT train heading back to New York which was the same train I took to New York to go railfanning today on track 2.
We arrive Metropark slowly and I noticed that there was a stalled Comet train on track 1, forcing all n/b's to land on Track 4 or bypass it on Track 2. It was a mix of Comet III's and IV's, with Comet IV Cab #5017 leading with its lights on. Comet IV's were strung in intermittent intervals (ex. Comet 4-4-3-4-3-3-4) with intermittent intervals of them having their lights off.
We pulled out of Metropark and I noticed that there was an ALP46 behind the still train with its taillights on.
I suspected at first that the locomotive failed, but I thought that was a fallacy. Does anyone have any details? The time was around 7:50p when we arrived Metropark.
This reminds me of another time a train was stuck on track 1 at Metropark, which was an AMTRAK Acela Regional n/b on a rained out Sunday morning where we stopped on track 4 to pick up passengers and make the numerous track switches at UNION.
1) What causes signal problems, especially the one that happened today?
2) Did the locomotive fail or did something else cause the train n/b to stall?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Is this a normal occurence?
Off-hand question:
1) What causes the Bronx Express #6 train to be slow in the tunnels but fast and OK on the El portion?
2) What is in use for the #4 line? R142 or R142A? I saw one passing by an upper Manhattan station stop.
3) Do the LED panels work like normal LED's or are there bars of fluorescent lights in them? I noticed that the LED is broken in a myriad of segments much more than you'll find on a standard digital display. This also goes for all upper-level displays at Penn Sta.
This allows for more sophisticated curves and accurate designs? (I would think so, but how do they work?)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
* You may wonder why there are asterisks behind my subjects. This signifies that all of these occurences were picked up from today's railfan trip. This also includes "Comet V #6017".
Uhhh....that's......very, uh, expedient of you.
They're backlit LCDs.
LCD = Liquid Crystal Display. No light generated. LCDs work by changing the polarization of light that comes through them, depending on whether current is passed through or not. This has the advantage that the display itself consumes a tiny amount of power (so the battery in your watch can power the LCD display for over a year for example).
So you can read an LCD display, it needs some external light. The cheapest is ambient light, as used by your watch and pager. These have tiny fluorescent tubes behind them for intermittent lighting during darkness (since this is a relatively big drain on the battery).
More usual, in both computer screens and the big applications you are seeing on trains, are ordinary fluorescent tubes, which provide continuous lighting from the back (hence back-lit).
The simplest LCDs are variations on a simple matrix, like the dot-matrix printers of old. However, some designer worked out that a few more segments (separately switchable parts of the displays) in special shapes, provide much better looking text, which is what the big annunciator board in NY Penn Station uses, for example.
The annunciator board is interesting, as it uses big monochrome LCDs with the curved segments for the train name/time/destination, and small color LCDs (similar to laptop screens, but smaller) for the operating company logo.
John
R-36ML 9543
R-36ML 9542
R-36ML 9537
R-36ML 9536
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
---Choo Choo
-Stef
---Choo Choo
The 4 you shot..... That's all folks!
---Choo Choo
(note: it can't be 3 or 4 trains, as the first two are definitely together, and the last two are definitely together)
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
-- Ed Sachs
Parking garage? What parking garage?
What's up with the bottom rollsign on 9542?
What the heck is that pink stuff stuck in the bottom of the middle sign on 9536?
Fascinating site you've got here. I wish I'd had the chance to ride the NYC subway more than once in my life, but hey, them's the breaks.
In any case, I wondered something while riding the T today--going outbound on the Red Line, before pulling into Harvard (I want to say that it's before the 90 degree curve, but I'm not sure), there's a gigantic shaft of daylight on the left side of the tunnel, and what appears to be an iron maiden exit. Is this a remnant of the old Harvard platform? If not, what? Better yet, anyone know where this is located above ground?
Thanks
Tom
When the line was extended to the Northwest, the new alignment required a new Harvard Station to be built. Most of the original station was demolished. A small portion of the original Harvard station (used March 23, 1912-Jan 31, 1981) and the temporary Harvard-Holyoke station (used Jan 31, 1981- September 2, 1983) remain and can be seen just as the line curves into the present Harvard station. There is also a short abandoned tunnel segment from Harvard Square, underneath Brattle Square, to Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. The Red Line's Eliot shops and the temporary Harvard-Brattle station (March 24, 1979-September 2, 1983) were once located on the site now occupied by several Harvard owned buildings.
Savin Hill has an abandoned lower busway, and the old Bradlees next to the station was once a streetcar barn. Fields Corner is a magnificent structure, pix of it when new are in Frank Cheney's Arcadia "Boston's Red Line" book (cheap, well worth it).
Charles/MGH is also slated for a major makeover soon, so get your pix soon!
There was also an inbound entrance on the other side of Mass Ave.
1) The first street exit does not exist anymore--the Out of Town News kiosk (overpriced and staffed with terminally rude people, I might add--if it weren't for the fact that they sold tickets for the bus to Wellesley, I wouldn't give them my business ;-) ) is well-known for being the old T entrance.
2) The exit visible from the train must correspond to the second exit you're talking about. Next time I'm at the corner of Mass Ave and Holyoke (I'm there no fewer than 5 times a day ;-) ), I'll take a gander at any grates in the vicinity (don't remember offhand where they're located).
As for the inbound entrace, I assume you mean that it would be on the north/east (Harvard Yard) side of the street--considering the boundaries of Harvard Yard probably haven't changed since the whole arrangement was reconfigured, I have no idea where this entrance would have been located.
One of these days I'll have to check out the various old MBTA publications available at the Harvard Design School library--while I don't think they have actual blueprints, they should have at least something with a decent schematic of the various platform/exit arrangements.
Tom
I'm sure Wiedner must have the annual reports of the Boston Transit Commission from 1910 to 1912. I'm pretty sure one of those reports shows the old Harvard Square station as it was constructed.
If they don't, you may want to try the MIT libraries or the Boston Public Library. Both of them had these sets, when I viewed them over 40 years ago.
You may be interested to know that Lafayette was entertained in that year in Philadelphia at a place now called the Wyck House, a former revolutionary war era British Army field hospital still preserved as a museum and garden at Germantown Av (then called the Great Av) and Walnut Lane (Walnut Lane did not exist then - it was all a farm).
It's pretty rough on Pataki (and on the Rockefeller brothers as well), and I think he does pile on his accusations a little too much when he goes through the charges (made last year in the Dailey News and elsewhere) that Pataki’s former law partner, William Plunkett, was a lobbyist for Bombardier, without mentioning the fact that Bombardier got skunked in the bidding for the R-160 contract. But it's still an interesting read.
Taibi convenienbtly omits a few things. Like the MTA's merger of railroad and auto tollways helped prevent lobbyists for highways from stripping mass transit of crucial guaranteed revenue support. The bondholders are upset that bond revenues are supporting mass transit? Screw them - unless the bonds default (which they haven't) I don't want to hear about it.
Some of the other stuff is true enough. There's plenty of dirt. But Taibi's whining thaty car drivers got the short end of the stick is as disingenous as it is prejudiced (against the trains).
Was Taibi paid by the Auto Club to write this article?
The MOSES angle was more to show the "kingmaker" principle as I read it ...
They collect tolls and issue bonds, but where the money goes no-one knows.
The MTA control of the TBTA is used to subsidies the subways at the expense of the driving public.
And what do we get for the money. The MTA waste's tons of money. A look at the MTA website shows multiple contracts for installation of CCTV camera's. The amount of cameras they are installing would get a huge discount if the signed a long term contract with a supplier. Also the amount of contracts would indicate that it would make sense to hire a team of CCTV specialists full time
Why don't they do it?
It would limit the amounnt of poitical payback
Now guess how much is going to come of all this? :)
A chase scene along the Whitehurst Freeway in Georgetown (you can see the Key Bridge in the background)--then the chase continues on foot along the C & O Canal Towpath, and then the fun (for me)
He runs into a supposed Red Line Station in Georgetown (which doesn't exist) and as he goes down the stairs, imagine the look on my face when he's now in the Charles Center Station of the Baltimore Metro (I love Movie Magic), then he rides the train and gets off into a shopping center, which is none other than the Pavillion at The Old Post Office, which is back in DC across the street from the Federal Triangle Station (a different line than the fairy-tale Georgetown Station). The movie is a good movie w/ Kevin Costner, but I only watch it so I can laugh my ass off at the scenes, and to think of how many people it fooled.
Mark
-Stef
Any word on what a 'new order' of CTA cars will look like? If thats actually true that is.
-- Ed Sachs
The term "blinker" as applied to doors comes from the perceived similarity between the two leaves of the doors opening and eyelids blinking. The two door leaves open from opposite sides of the door frame.
By "cherries" I'm assuming you mean the emergency door openers, and yes, all CTA cars (both with blinkers and sliding doors) have them.
Also, while I would agree that their appearance will likely closely resemble the current 2400's and 3200's, the new cars will apparently have AC traction motors and will probably not be compatible with the current fleet.
Frank Hicks
-- Ed Sachs
Plus the CTA is also ordering these cars to accomodate higher ridership on the Green Line and Brown line after it is expanded to 8-car capacity. After the new cars arrive they will immediately add them to the brown line after the renovation is done and presumably the green line also. Currently the green line runs with a minimum number of cars. It only has a few 8-car trains heading towards Harlem/lake during the peak of rush-hour to accomodate the high ridership. I could be wrong, but according to my observations many green line trains during the rush period besides these couple are running at crush capacity.
It is a tricky subject though, because the green line gets much higher ridership to harlem then it does either of the 63rd St. terminals. Plus 8-car trains can only operate out of 63rd/Ashland because East-63rd can only accomodate up to 6-cars. This is really stupid because every other station can handle 8-car lenghts. You would think they would be contemplating short-turning trains and running some them between Harlem and the Loop with 8 cars to handle the high ridership to harlem. The cars are equipped with "loop" destination signs, so why not have some run to the Loop during rush hour?? They could loop the loop or turn around after Roosevelt. This would also free-up some equipment because of the shorter runs, atleast until the new cars are put into service.
I don't know too much about CTA operations, but there are probably big potential advantages in terms of maintenance and operational time savings that could be gained by adopting more modern equipment that may not train with the current fleet. I wouldn't be too surprised if these advantages were predicted to overcome the disadvantages of lessening fleet flexibility. I think that CTA mixes 2200's and 2600's on the Blue Line simply because it can - segregating them wouldn't be that hard. And, I'm almost certain the new order is supposed to be for something over 400 cars - it will replace not only the 2200's but also the 2400's.
Frank Hicks
In Blue Line service today, the rule is that a set of 2600's sliding door cars must be in the consist in order for the train to be ADA compliant. On eight car trains you’ll usually find two pair of 2200’s in the “middle” of the consist, with a pair of 2600’s on each “end”. The 2600 pair at each end allows the wheelchair to be in the car that contains the operator.
The 2200's, with their "blinker" doors, are not ADA compliant.
Jim K.
Chicago
I also saw a solid 6-car 2000-series train on what is now the Red line in August of 1991.
There are three other lines where, as policy, the trains are solid consists. These are:
The Green Line - 2400's
The Orange Line - 3200's
The Yellow Line - 3441-3450 (5 pair)
The other lines run trains as follows:
The Blue Line - 2200's & 2600's (high numbers)
The Brown Line - 2600's & 3200's
The Purple Line - 2400's & 2600's
Jim K.
Chicago
What are fully automatic couplers ?
That must cause delays!
Frank Hicks
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
ALL YOU TORONTO FANS SPEAK UP.
THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO ON THE SPADINA LINE: QUEEN AND DUNDAS?
MAYBE CARLTON (COLLEGE), ALSO ON SPADINA.
Since the picture was taken in 1980, the CTA has added another switch for westbound trains to take the loop route again (south) if the Wells Street bridge over the Chicago River is open.
I was on a Ravenswood on a Saturday last Spring (oh, Brown line to the youngsters) that took the loop routing again. The Wells St. bridge was open for pleasure boats.
Jim K.
Chicago
Otherwise, I can't think of any places in the NY el system
where a pair of lines crossed at grade like that, other than
the old Lexington Ave el in Brooklyn before the reconfiguration,
which was a 1/2 grand, IIRC.
Maybe I'm overlooking something.
I'm told that trains of different destinations berthed at their "own" location of the platform.
Keep in mind, many more people used the 'L' in those days, and the platforms needed to accomodate all those people waiting for trains. It is interesting to see pictures of the Loop 'L' prior to the opening of the State Street subway. The platforms were always crowded at the rush hour - especially the afternoon.
In the times before cab signals, trains were operated by motorman who would bring their train right up to their leader in order to load up.
Today, even with cab signals, the rule says an operator can not enter a station when a train is already berthed at the platform.
Jim K.
Chicago
Or are they thought of as mainly a commuters thing, not really popular enough to go see a movie, or to a museum...and get home again late at night?
Here's a run-down based on my experience (others here may disagree on some):
Red Line Dan Ryan branch (24-hour): many commuters, but also a lot of neighborhood traffic and some traffic for White Sox games and Bears games. The southern terminal for this line (95th Street) is one of the busiest stations in the system, driven mostly by commuters.
Red Line Howard branch (24-hour): Many on the north side of Chicago near the lake use this line for most of their travel. It is a true transit backbone and attracts not just commuters but students from DePaul and Loyola and the downtown campuses of the numerous downtown college campuses. Also provides access to many movie houses and many local stage theatres. It is only REALLY crowded to NYC levels at rush hour, but is heavily used at almost all hours.
Blue Line Congress branch (24-hour): mostly commuters, some limited other activity
Blue Line O'Hare branch (24-hour): the further towards O'Hare it gets, the more it is commuter-oriented, but closer in it is a standard means to move around from home to club to restaurant to park or whatever. Also a good number of trips from the Loop or the neighborhoods to O'Hare and back. A lot of airline personel live off this branch. It runs through Wicker Park/Bucktown which is a very hot neighborhood, and Logan Square, a stately older neighborhood that many young hipsters are moving to as they get priced out of Wicker Park.
Blue Line Douglas branch: mostly commuters (no weekend service), but may become more of a backbone once the reconstruction of it is finished in 2006. I think it will become like the Brown Line (see below) once it's fully rehabbed.
Brown Line: This is very much a backbone. It is maxed out at rush hour, but also has heavy ridership during off-peak ours. The neighborhoods it serves are some of the hottest in the city and it gets the most use of the non-24-hour lines. It is currently being expanded to handle trains 1/3 longer than the current platforms can handle.
Green Line Lake Street branch: mostly commuters from Oak Park to downtown. Some local traffic from West Siders, and a few riders to the amazing Garfield Park Conservatory, but mostly it's Oak Park commuters.
Green Line East 63rd/Ashland branch: very lightly used, a mix of commuters and people who need to get downtown or from neighborhood to neighborhood.
Yellow Line: 99% commuters
Purple Line Local: mix of north suburban commuters and people getting around
Purple Line Express: 99% commuters
Orange Line: mostly commuters and people going between Midway Airport and the Loop, starting to see some local traffic (this line is only about 10 years old).
The bus system in Chicago is pretty good, too. The busses here haul about twice as many people as the "L" does on any given day. They're especially imporant on the lakefront neighborhoods south of Wilson, and for east/west transportation. The Loop-centric planning has forced the "L" to be more commuter-centric than it might have otherwise been.
I'm still pleased at the large number of lines Chicago has. It's good to know that you COULD easily get around there by subway and "L" trains. Very cosmopolitan. I've only rode on CTA once, from Union Station out to Ohare (sp?) to find an inexpensive motel for a night. Didn't know of any beforehand but I did find one. Next morning I walked down to Forest Park and took a double decker commuter train (forgot which branch it was) back into the City. The landscape along that walk reminded me somewhat of areas around Jersey City or Staten Island. I loved all the railroad lines and trestles in your town!!
So tune in to the Discovery Channel RIGHT NOW!!
Enjoy
After seeing it, I decided that if I worked for NYCT, I would want to work in the Geometry Car. How cool would it be for your job to be riding over every single track of the NYCT all the time? You don't deal with customers at all. If you find a problem with the track, you call up the track workers and let THEM do the hard work, while you keep going on your merry way.
How does one get a job on the Geometry Car? It sounds like a high seniority position.
--Mark
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
Hard cases make bad law. Now anyone, regardless of how untalented can play his instrument of choice in the subway. And if musicians are allowed next come the Hari Krishna players we all remember from the airport.
Tom
Mark
When she first started performing in the subway, she was issued a summons for having a dangerous weapon in her possession. She had to remove the teeth from her saw in order to comply with the law.
Ms. Paruz has a website with samples of her work. If you've never heard her, you might enjoy listening to her.
The Saw Lady
I've also enjoyed listening to Alice Tan Ridley who really belts her music out and knows how to interact with an audience.
BTW, have you ever seen the B-I-G guy with the steel drum ?
Would like to know if someone can ID him by name or name the
whereabouts of his dreamy tune these days...
Such a real pleasure to listen his "music" (if you don't have a heart-related medical condition.)
Mark
I like taking photos too much to stop doing it, but the truth is, you don't need to take photos, as this site does provide it all...
This was at Orange Street... so you were taking pictures of a public street, from a public sidewalk? Last time I checked, the police couldn't tell you to stop doing that. :(
If you don't like it, you can sue.
If a cop asks you something which you believe to be improper, then be polite, and comply - but not before getting his/her name and shield number. Call the relevant district or precinct, and ask to speak to a patrol supervisor. If you don't get satisfaction that way, document the conversation, then write a letter to the transit agency or municipal govt (depending on whose property you were standing), describing what happened and asking for an official legal opinion.
If you were standing on public property, for example, then the city or county attorney should be able to tell you on what grounds the officer acted. If he can't, then you are entitled to a letter that says so. You can show that to the officer the next time. If the officer doesn't change his/her behavior, you have cause for requesting disciplinary action, or a lawsuit.
See, for example, what recently happened to SEPTA with the case of the musician.
Somehow I doubt that the no-photos order had anything to do with the fact that it involved a transit system. More likely, the cops didn't like being photographed while giving out tickets because they thought you might have been collecting evidence for police-brutality or discrimination claims.
Mark
Anybody who believes you about tokens is a total sap.
Let's review your record:
First you said that it would be too controversial to eliminate tokens on May 4, so they won't be eliminated and would still be for sale well after, you were wrong.
Then you said they'd still sell them after April 13, you were wrong again.
Now this.
It costs the MTA a good sum of money to maintain the token system for what will likely be an even smaller percentage of passengers. The tokens have to be emptied from the turnstiles by you people, they have to be collected and distributed. The MTA has wanted to eliminate the token for decades, it finally has the chance to do so cleanly and with little protest. It will do EVERYTHING in its power to make sure the token bites the dust on May 4. I'm sure that some people at the TA will be drinking champagne, celebrating the end of their ten year long mission to kill the token.
If TA was going to do away with tokens completely, all booths would have gotten rid of them last sunday. They haven't. Maybe they will. But we'll find out for sure come May 3th. So stay tuned. It isn't over yet.
If I'm wrong about this, I'll say I'm sorry to everyone. But we won't know one way or another until May 4th, 2003.
-Stef
-Stef
oz12
Here's an article about something everyone who rides MARTA has known about years: MARTA has a high number of fare evaders. The article said that MARTA loses $8-10 million per year on fare evasion. Divide $10 million by the fare, $1.75, and you get 5.7 million people riding for free a year. That's a very high number considering that MARTA has only 80 million riders per year. How does a 7% fare evasion rate compare to NYCT?
It's so easy to ride for free, I'll admit I done it a couple of times. You just pull open the handicap gate and you're in. I know of some people who ride MARTA regularly and have NEVER paid the fare.
What even more funny is that I've seen people ACCIDENTALLY evade fare. Yup, it's THAT easy. I was railfanning and waiting for a train at Medical Center, this lady comes to the platform and asks if she has to pay the fare on the train. I said you pay at the turnstiles, and she said she walked in from where the buses were. So apparently she walked through the driveway for buses, where the bus station is within fare control and just went down to the platform. This lady was an idiot since there are flashing lights saying pedistrians can't enter, but the fact that she was able do so anyway shows how lax security is.
The faregates are monitored via cameras, but if nobody is paying attention, you get in free. Even if they do, it's hit or miss whether the transit police can respond quickly enough.
MARTA will have to decide if they are losing enough money that they're willing to invest in more people to deter fare evasion.
That sentence illustrates in a nutshell why it is best not to upbraid people on Subtalk for not doing their homework.
If you had read the article that Rob so nicely linked to, you would realize that there is no new thought in that sentence.
So do us all a favor and lighten up. It's OK to post on Subtalk, as you just did, even when you haven't done your homework.
If you had read the article that Rob so nicely linked to, you would realize that there is no new thought in that sentence"
You are correct I was rephrasing, or paraphrasing the article. Did you miss that?
"So do us all a favor and lighten up. It's OK to post on Subtalk, as you just did, even when you haven't done your homework."
In the first place, you're not speaking for all of us. In the second place, you have a lot to clean up yourself before you can ask me anything.
Please try to be more mature and adult about your posting. And yes, do some homework first.
NYCT still relies on people and arrests to cut fare beating. HEETs help, but you can't have them everywhere, esp. since they cannot admit a wheelchair.
But this is still interesting since is technically a form of fare evasion and is perfectly legal. I jumped a few weeks ago at University Park because 294 was backed up on the way to the station and if I had to buy a ticket from the TVM's I would have missed the train and had to wait an hour for the next train.
It is always amusing to see new electric line riders try to exit at stations with turnstiles and get hit in the stomach with the gate since they don't know they have to use their ticket again. Although the turnstiles are useless since conductors collect the fares and not the turnstiles. It is actually a form of double-fare collection, but no fair since it isn't present on any other Metra line. I guess it makes up for the stupid barrier-free honor systems like the L.A. metro. I never saw anything that stupid. Everytime I rode everybody could have rode for free with no penalties. But then since ridership is low, why make the people who do ride pay!!
Those caught without a ticket are subject to a $250.00 fine and a warrant check. If you are caught just once, that is more than 185 fares. If you are commuting back and forth to work, you could get away with fare beating for three weeks and still lose money if caught in the fourth week. Random fare checks that I have observed have shown that more than 95% of the riders had valid tickets. Since there is no expense for turnstiles or anyone watching them, perhaps it isn't such a stupid system after all.
Tom
I remember the first time I saw MARTA up close. It was December 1983 and I was visiting Atlanta for the holidays. Those damn creeps that I was related to (LOL) wouldn't take and/or let me go anywhere near MARTA. So one day I lied and told my uncle I was going to the store. Instead, I jumped on the 60 bus and rode to Hightower.
Now, you have to understand, coming from NY, I had a NY mentality.
1. I didn't ask for a transfer because in NY at that time there were no transfers between bus and subway.
2. When I arrived at Hightower, the first thing I looked for was the turnstyles-spent 10 minutes and couldn't find one. So I call myself "sneaking" up the stairs to the platform. I didn't have any intention on riding MARTA, just wanted to take a look inside. I stood on that train until it was time to depart. Then seeing what time it was, I knew a 61 bus was going to depart from the station at that minute. I went flying down those stairs and through the bus bays. Saw the 61 just sitting there and leaped on it.
3. There was no bus driver in sight-passengers yes, bus driver, no. I'm twisting and turning everyway looking for the bus driver. Again that NY mentality kicked in. The bus driver still didn't show up, so I decided to pay the fare anyway. When I dropped the $.60 in the farebox, you should've seen the looks I received. Finally this lady informs me that I WASN'T suppose drop the 60 cents in the farebox-that this was a "fare paid area".
The funny thing about it was then the lady asks "They way you came tearing down those stairs and paying the fare, you must be from NY".
Come to think about it, MARTA still owes me 60 cents. Since it's so easy to evade the fare, maybe I should hurry up and go down there and jump the turnstyles before they set up a special task force to prevent this. LOL.
Mark
If you ride a bus that uses a station where the busway is outside of fare control, you are supposed to ask the driver for a rail transfer.
If you work those fare-paid areas right, you can see a lot of Atlanta on a single fare, hopping back and forth between bus and rail. For example, the #23 bus along Peachtree Road between Arts Center and Lenox. And on my last visit I took a long bus ride from North Springs (terminal of the North Line) to Chamblee (Northeast Line).
But it will be nice if MARTA introduces a day pass as part of its new system. No more having to carry a supply of tokens so I can exit and re-enter stations to take pictures!
I was at a conference and we were chatting about MARTA's fare problems. MARTA had the funding for the smart card project several years ago but it was held up several years while several things happend, most notably that GRTA issued standards for a metro-wide system so a smart card will be valid on all transit systems in Atlanta (GRTA regional express bus, MARTA, GCT, CCT, C-tran, Quicklink, etc.) Meanwhile, MARTA's turnstiles weren't getting any newer, and last year they added metal bands around the oldest ones to keep them from falling apart. The new smart card system (with cards you don't even have to remove from your pocket, purse, etc) will go online in 2004/2005. Funding is in place.
Didn't NYCTA have a turnstile crisis in the late 70's / early 80's?
Also, FYI MARTAs CQ310 and CQ311 rebuilds will have new linoleum floors installed. No more carpet. I will miss the smells.
On a final note: How do you know when winter is officially over in Atlanta? When the groundhog gets drenced from air conditioner condensate on a CQ311.......
"Mom, why is it raining inside the train?" - overheard on a MARTA train this week :)
-Paul
Often people divide small numbers by small numbers and think the answer they get is useful information. A good example is MDBF for brand new subway car fleets.
The trouble is that, if
lim(x=>0) f(x) = 0
and
lim(x=>0) g(x) = 0
then lim(x=>0) f(x)/g(x) (which is one way of defining "0/0") can be anything you want it to be, depending on how f and g behave near 0.
The conclusions:
1. "0/0" is anything you want it to be, so the mathematically rigorous answer is that it's "undefined".
2. Be careful quoting statistics that involve dividing relatively small numbers by each other. The result may be garbage.
It's probably a futile attempt to re-rail this thread
--An R-17 RailKing set in red. (He didn't say, and probably didn't know, since catalog photos are notoriously inaccurate, whether this was the original maroon livery or the early-60s bright red repainting.)
--A "Grafitti" RailKing Set. (He didn't say what type of cars would be used.)
--A "Premiere" flat car with a subway train on it.
Although a lot of us MTH fans hoped for an entirely new tooling, such as an R-9 or an R-62, what they're (apparently) going to do makes sense from a business standpoint: they will make maximum use of their existing toolings.
I would hope that the grafitti set contained a mixture of R-17s, R-21s, R36s and R12s. You could intermix this set with the silver-and-blue R-17s and the upcoming) white R-12s and have a realistic-looking, early 1980s consist, with both clean and dirty cars in the same train.
BTW, Saw the R-17 MOW car at a Greenberg show.
I've noticed, just here alone, dozens and dozens of unhappy people who wanted to buy a set only to find out that everything had been sold out long before the delivery date.
If you've ever see the complete lists of upcoming models offered by MTH or Lionel, its a wonder how they can produce such a large variation of models. My guess is that the overseas manufacturers, due to limited plant capacity, rotate the models they're producing so that they can keep offering the large variety. The same machines will produce a subway car one month, then a run of Santa Fe passenger cars the next month, then Amfleet cars another month, and so on.
I was assurred by my dealer that despite the fact that they ran out of yellow R-17 work train cars, I will eventually recieve mine, since I pre-ordered.
sure would love to see reasonably priced subway sets in MY size
Hey Kevin
Did you forget about me ?
and you would love a Craftsman’s set.
Does a bear wait in line for a rest room? :)
i guess not!
Kev you got a 60% chance of getting the set if i wont able to sell it for what its worthand what ive put in it wich is about $3.000 american !
Vlad
Does a bear wait in line for a rest room? :)
i guess not!
Kev you got a 60% chance of getting the set if i wont able to sell it for what its worth and what ive put in it wich is about $3.000 american !
Vlad
"Yowsah" is "Da" in uptownese. :)
if you car the most expensive car i made in brass was 2 pairs or Slant 40s they even had seats in em ! Ready To Run $12.000
spent a year on it ! purfect runners !
for me skrew the cash since if you had any idea how difficult it is to make the slanted cabs and those models were in O scale that was my first and last O scale subway project !
to much of a headeche !
i have not Tacken pics of my subway stuff !
and if i get some time off this break i will get back to my jappnice narrow gauge in HON20 Ho running on 5.8mm track to represent 20 in gauge mining railway must scrach build everething mechanis track work etc ! since none of that stuff is avalible commersialy !
Tell me what you think on the board !
and im going to sleep !
get real! cheapest one is $60 !
i might do an R11 car and a 3 car set of R110b !
now what do think of that !
and cc local left the board yesterday perminatly !
Vlad
30-2391-0: RailKing Graffitti R-17 4-car set w/Locosound
30-2391-1: RailKing Graffitti R-17 4-car set w/Protosound-2
30-2391-3: RailKing Graffitti R-17 2-car add-on
30-2392-0: RailKing Redbird R-17 4-car set w/Locosound
30-2392-1: RailKing Redbird R-17 4-car set w/Protosound-2
30-2392-3: RailKing Redbird R-17 2-car add-on
20-98364: Premiere MTA Flat Car with R-17 Subway car
20-98365: Premiere MTA Flat Car with R-17 Subway car
Who knows if the next items are subway items, Metro-North, or L.I.R.R.?
30-79037: MTA Engineering car
30-7255 : MTA gondola with junk load
And what is this?
30-90027 Elevated Station Platform
Nothing like a mooing subway train.
When those cars were new, the N was the Broadway-Sea Beach express 24/7. Well, express in Manhattan 24/7, anyway.
Quick someone get me a trolley pole for that sucker!
-Stef
-Stef
I think it's great that they're finally offering the add-on sets at the same time as the powered sets, as this will allow you to "mix-and-match" your subway consists. Just imagine: Redbird R-21s, silver R-17s, Turquoise and white R-36s, (all previously released), two-tone grey R-12s, white R-12s, and graffittied cars, all in the same train.
The "redbird" R-17 is apparently the bright red/black trim repaint job from the early 60s. The destination signs are from the #6 train.
The "Graffiti" set is a silver & blue set with grafitti added. (Can't tell from the photos what the destinations are.)
The flat car either contains a red R-17 or the yellow work train R-17.
Thanks
R1/9 AND R10 TRAINS
MOMENTARY S/W ON (or OFF)
Good piece of nostaliga.
Mark
Southbound
Lv Spg
6:00 am
7:15 am
10:40 am
12:25 pm
2:10 pm
4:05 pm
5:05 pm (Vermonter)
7:20 pm
Northbound:
8:50 am
10:15 am
12:55 pm (Vermonter)
2:15 pm
4:10 pm
5:15 pm
8:30 pm
Amtrak says the fares have dropped by nearly 50 percent for some locations. Drops range from five to 15 dollars and discounts also apply to monthly commuter passes. The Springfield-New Haven pass has gone down from 284 dollars to 171 dollars. Currently, the fares make a round trip from somewhere like Meriden or Wallingford, < 20 miles from New Haven, a $40 experiance and clearly prices it out of range of most casual short distance riders.
The best news is that Amtrak President Gunn was about to increase the service without it costing a single cent more. By altering Union service agreements and equipment usage more was about to be squeezed out of the current equipment. The same method was used to increase efficiency on the Chicaho-Mauwalkee Corridor.
Just goes to show that a win-win-win (union, management, and customers) situation is possible if labor and management work together rather than against each other.
Sure it's cheaper now. It's all those extra police officers and attack dogs that they don't need anymore now that you won't be riding.
:0)
Chaohwa
The switch will mark the first time the name Southeast will appear anywhere outside of town offices and documents. Interstate signs and the post office use only Brewster, a village of 2,162 that is part of the larger surrounding town of 17,316. Southeast Supervisor Lois Zutell said the town has trouble getting agencies to acknowledge the municipality because its name is also a direction.
This is the first complete name change in MNRR Hiistory.
Also when the NEW New Haven-State St station, are they going to rename it too.
Funny how they change the name to Southeast, when you are as northerly as you can get outside of the NYC metro area (outside of Wassic and Waterbury stations)
:-) Andrew
Well, yeah. I can picture the comedy routine.
Where do you live?
Southeast, New York.
Where in Southeast New York?
On Smith Road.
Yes, but in what town?
Southeast.
Etc., etc.
-----
I think MNRR will find the customer confusion rate increasing rather than decreasing after they make the change. Why would any town in their right mind call themselves "Southeast"?
Maybe the same reason (whatever it is) that a town not far from here (in South Carolina) calls itself "Due West". The folks there must be sick of the question, "Due West of what?" (but not sick enough to change the name :-)
I believe there's also a North, South Carolina (or is it South, North Carolina?)
Person A: We go left?
Person B: Right.
Person A: Ok.
Person B: No, left!
Person A: Right, gotcha!
Person V: Left, goddamn it!!
And it dreads on and on...
WELCOME TO METRO NORTH
Right, I've driven through it a few times on my way to or from Charleston. I've also been to North East, Pennsylvania (just off I-90 near the New York line).
Thinking about Due West reminded me of the Due West Railroad, a short line (about 5 miles) that once connected it with the Southern Railway line from Columbia to Greenville. I seem to remember reading that in its last years it used a steam locomotive from the Third Avenue El or one of the other New York els. But I can't find any references in my library or on the Web yet. Maybe it was a figment of my imagination?
MNCRR should have told Southeast to change the name of the town first, then the name of the station. If MNCRR needs to change the name of a station to "Southeast," it should be Grand Central. Brewster North would be better named "North Central."
I was going to say that myself. "Southeast" is such a generic name for a town, obviously a legacy from when the area was completlely unsettled (and when today's Putnam County was still part of Dutchess County, which to this day has a Town of Northeast, which is still extremely rural.) It's an even worse name than the Town of North Hempstead (there is no such community within the Town's boundaries in either case.) These and a number of NYS's townships should consider more relevant names. I suggest North Hempsead become the Town of Manhasset (that's the hamlet where town hall is located) and Southeast become...I don't know, Town of Brewster? Or if they really can't think of anything else, Town of West Danbury?
:-D Andrew
Putnam was established in 1812.
DTrain22
R30
British James
RonInBayside
Chris Rivera
4-ma-ny-ka
Ntrainride
Last year's group included 3 subtalkers that still regularly post on the board:
WestEnd Jeff
New Flyer
Paul DiMaria
You guys will automatically received your updated copies via email when I complete the fourth chapter in the next two to three weeks as will those who had responded to the first few threads I posted.
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
Again, those of you who hadn't seen or read the first few threads, you still have plenty of time to request a copy.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
PS I'll post this message again and again over the next few days, in case you miss this first response.
So far the following subtalkers expressed interest in hearing more about the transit project I'm working on:
DTrain22
R30
British James
RonInBayside
Chris Rivera
4-ma-ny-ka
Ntrainride
Last year's group included 3 subtalkers that still regularly post on the board:
WestEnd Jeff
New Flyer
Paul DiMaria
You guys will automatically received your updated copies via email when I complete the fourth chapter in the next two to three weeks as will those who had responded to the first few threads I posted.
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
Again, those of you who hadn't seen or read the first few threads, you still have plenty of time to request a copy.
Remember you can also email me privately for a request.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
Last year's group included 3 subtalkers that still regularly post on the board:
WestEnd Jeff
New Flyer
Paul DiMaria
You guys will automatically received your updated copies via email when I complete the fourth chapter in the next two to three weeks as will those who had responded to the first few threads I posted.
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
Again, those of you who hadn't seen or read the first few threads, you still have plenty of time to request a copy.
Remember you can also email me privately for a request.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
No MTA personnel could tell me when service would be next disrupted.
(Some have seen this as cause for martyrdom. I don't recommend this approach.)
Also, what is a differentiation between an R62 and R62A? Which one of these is in use on the 7 line?
In the Steinway tubes, I saw a series of small, square signs for a length between Vernon-Jackson and GCT. One green, rectangular sign displayed "R 11". What does this stand for?
then:
In the program menu, F_ile, O_pen, and then select "prgman32.trk" or "islingtn.trk" (the only two interlockings currently available to the public)
The help file for nxsys is extremely informative -read it!
You also need a righteous soul. Needless to say, I've never been there.
wayne
Then as the door opens, you hear, "Slowly I turn, step by step..."
BTW did that have anything to do with the movie of the same name?
CBTC
JV
The only thing I'm thinking is what material they would use for the El connection. I'd presume it would have concrete somewhere in the mix.
The new 24/7 Times Square entrance on the North side of W. 42nd st between 7th ave and Broadway has reopened yesterday. The entrance was closed due to the office building being constructed above it.
The bad news:
When you get to the lower level by the Shuttle and BMT area, you will encounter a sign in front, directing you to the N/R/Q/W platform. However NYCT screwed up by having an ORANGE Q circle line instead of the normal yellow Q circleon that sign. Why do they always do this to my subway line?
December 11th, 1988 was the first day of full B and D service on the 6th Ave side of the Manny-B, as well as the grand opening of you-know-what in Jamaica, and 5 day a week A express service in Brooklyn as well.
I had the dates correct.
I thank you, sir. You are an asset to transit.
It is really sad that when I've observed (over a six-month period, mind you.) live extension cords dangling on the S/B side of Atlantic Ave station/Q line platform, with the cord at nose level. And only did a call to the MTA I.G. office to correct that situtation.
This is so sad when there is no oversight from either Division of Stations or Capital Program Management, someone could've been seriously injured or electrocuted at a result of the reckless action by the contractor renovating the entire complex.
That's on the South side of 42nd Street.
The only thing I found a bit unusal is that you encounter a couple of massive columns at the bottom fo the staircases, but if they hold up the entire building, I'm not complaining.
Being 'cheap' to a grandeous pastime??
wayne
R-10's were never wore olive paint.
Bill "Newkirk"
Covered with a coating of steel dust to give them that "grunge" look.
Bill "Newkirk"
That may be true for the BMT, but the 3rd Ave El and Flushing line had them as long as I can remember.
Tom
JV
# 4 Line : SOME trains will be operating from Woodlawn to Bowling Green. So just because your on the #4 train it may not go to Brooklyn.
#5 Line : Running from Dyre to E 180 St ONLY
#6 lINE : Running in two sections
Pelham Bay to 125 Street
125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge
Does Grand Central master tower have a dedicated announcer to inform customers that the #5 is not running in Manhattan?
I sure will hear the conductors working on the 2 (computer generated),3,A,C,J,L (computer generated),Q,R, and W lines this weekend with this announcement: "Transfer is available to the 4, 5, and 6 trains". Don't they have a list of all the G.O.'s? (The same list of detours, the Station Agents have.)
wayne
RTO has no similar rules?
TSS's seem to be able to enter and leave active tracks at will, by themselves, without flagging protection of any kind.
A Few weeks ago I saw a TSS signal an oncoming train to stop with a flashlight, and then turn his back to us and unhook a stop while we were still moving. He was only about 100' ahead...
What gives?
As to your question, however, consider two things:
First, a TSS is a supervisor and not an hourly employee. More duties and responsibilities are conveyed to them by virtue of their position.
Second, as in the case of road car inspectors and other Car Equipment personnel, TSSs are directly involved with train movement, As such, their entire focus is on the road and traffic around them. MOW crews are working on things other than trains and due to concentration, not be observant of traffic in the area. It's just a different set of circumstances.
Incidently, when a train has an unexplained BIE, the train operator is required to walk around his/her train. They, too, do it without flagging.
The down train itself provides the flag for the block that *it* is in. The Adjacent track *is* a problem. Maybe they must call in before they can get down onto the tracks. Maybe they gotta stay on their own track.
Maybe if they stick their fat butts out into the adjacent ROW they will get part of it sliced off.
Elias
During signal trouble, signal personnel are primarily concerned with the safe movement of trains, just like the TSS. Yet signal must first set out flagging now, even if it means trains full of passengers are sitting still waiting. Personally I see no difference.
I know not a single manager who whould do that!
What's an MPR?
I think if you compare NYCT to Class I railroads such as the LIRR, you'll see that NYCT's discipline is not as Draconian as you might be lead to believe. On the LIRR, pass a signal - first time- and it's 30 days in the street.
MPRs are a rating system by which managers are rated in accordance with how well they've met certain pre-determined goals.
The term "smaller infraction" is misleading. It's a very slippery slope once you decide which provisions of the CBA are important and which ones are frivolous. Do you really want to do that? You say (for example) that the CBA provision about sick leave is too stringent. Ignore it? Well shall we also ignore the section of the CBA related to vacations? The CBA was negotiated by your union. You ratified it. You simply can't decide that some parts of it do not have to be followed because the infractions are small or trivial.
The issue was, however, that management spends most of its time trying to find reason to discipline the hourly employees. I said that claim is nonesense. So far no one has stated any facts that show anything but isolated incidents.
Elias
The philosophies of how government works flies in the face of problem solving, cooperation and the "we're all in the same army" alternative.
OK out *here* they got an engineer, who STAYS IN THE ENGINE no matter what, and a Conductor who has to get out of the train and walk around it in the event of defect, BIE, &ct. He has to walk a MILE down the track, around the back of the train and back again along the other side of the train. He has to do this in four foot high snowdrifts with wind chills hovering around -40 degrees, all to find an over heated brake shoe that has long since cooled down to the ambient temperature. He has to do it all in 45 minutes, and it is up hill both ways!
Elias
(Remember your response must be in the form of a question
I need to know, I know how to change words into making them bold and in italics, but how do you change color and size, though?
For anyone who wants to know..
WORD
WORD
Some tricks can get annoying
Better than Heypaul's scrolling text that doesn't ever work in Netscape.
JV
I'll take "Apartments with Motorman's Cabs for $10,000," Alex.
I may take it only as far as Medford, but it's usually quite reliable.
Wild guess. What is the 5:22 Penn to Ronkonkoma? or perhaps the better question is, Where is the 5:22? or When the heck is the 5:22 going to show up?
That depends on what your definition "on time" is.
Do R-44 and R-46 types even HAVE air conditioning? And if they do, what kind of temperature threshold do they require to put it on? It doesn't follow that they would turn it on in certain car types but not others. I remember another year as well, where, every day, when rush hour commuters, when faced with the choice between the hot express R-44 (A) train, and the local but cool (C) train, they would all bumrush the (C), and forget the (A). This could happen again, and it would be disastrous.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
But last year, I found the A/C on the R44s pretty good. The first time since 1979.
I remember when they 1st hit the "A" on a regular basis in 1977. During the summer, that was the only time that I would pick a R44 over a R10. Those R44s were really cold then.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And yes, there are also some Phase I still working out of Jamaica.
PHASE I = round plug w/keyhole on side of seat near door.
PHASE II= square plate w/keyslot on side of seat near door.
wayne
"At lease better than the R32s I ride on the "A" and "C". The R32s that I ride on the "E" werent better either, but on the other hand, I do not ride the "E" that much, so I can only go by what I ride the most, "A" and "C".
Those ARE my lines.
I also concur with the findings that the A/C in the R44 cars leaves a lot to be desired. I remember them fondly when new too, they were very cold then, somehow they lost something over the years.
R38 has good A/C and so do the Slant R40 but they tend to drip.
wayne
NYC subway cars (except the single-unit R-33s) have climate control systems that are designed to run year-round, and they are SUPPOSED to operate year-round. Assuming that the system is on, it should provide whatever is needed, be it heat, air conditioning, or straight ventilation. If it's off, either it's malfunctioning (an equipment problem) or it's been turned off (a personnel problem).
David
In general, NYCT cars all work the same way. Below 60 degrees F inside the car, the car has heat. As the car ambient drops, the heat increases in stages. Above 71 degrees F, HVAC comes on in stages. Between 71 and 60 degrees F, neither heat nor AC run, just the blowers.
Yeah; threshold plate heaters to prevent the build-up of ice and snow. They're on the R-143 also.
#3 West End Jeff
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--Z--
Even if it replaced all transatlantic flights and ship crossings, it would be horrendously under utilized, given its mega-trillion cost.
On the other hand, that kind of money would feed a lot of hungry people with enough left over to fund every urban transit project ever posted on this site.
Just a thought.
Remember the US "sightseeing tour" sub that hit a boat full of Japanese high school students about a couple of years ago? It hurts when someone makes a joke about that (even if it was not your intention).
I know you could be better than this post (especially about Arnines and broadcasting). So PLEEEEASE.... don't call us Japs (yes, my ethnic background is Japanese). Would you use the "N" word to describe African-Americans, on this board?
You own one of the handles I don't really want to "killfile". :-)
Back to the topic, I already hate flying even though I have to do it every now and then. I would probably choose not to ride such train. Chances are, flying is much safer than to ride a 5000 mph undersea train.
I'm painfully aware of the sinking of the Ehime Maru and the loss of nine students of the Uwajima Fisheries High School on February 9, 2001, and for what little my words may mean, express my sincerest regrets. As a former employee of Matsushita, SONY, Victor Company of Japan, and as a "gaigin" who was welcomed on the Akihabara as well as Okinawa prefecture, just wanted to express that what was said there was NOT how it was received. My apologies, I was commenting on the stupidity of that show. :(
And as an expression of my sincerity, I am aware of the cultural role of "apology/forgiveness" and you owe me no forgiveness here whatsoever.
"1941", heh? I need to watch "Dumbo":-)
And no, I didn't watch the "transatlantic tunnel" show. We can dream about it, but like I said before, it's unlikely that I would take the risk to ride that one.
Akihabara... We need a place like that in NYC. The closest thing I've seen here was 45th St between 5th and 6th. But now, only a few stores remains.
Peace,
Wado
But Belushi with his "Jap Sub" bit was the signature line of that movie, and that was what I was trying to tie in to the complete and utter stupidity of that "Transatlantic tunnel" thing Discovery ran. I'm sure it will rear its ugly head again on television sets - do find a few minutes to watch it - be sure to have a plastic lined wretch container handy, you'll need it. It was truly THAT off the wall.
New York once had a THRIVING Akihabara, it was known as "Cortland Street/Radio Row" ... but they tore it all down to put up WTC, and the displacement of all those shops to Canal Street ensured their untimely death. That was why I *had* to do Akihabara while I was over in Tokyo. It was beyond my wildest dreams!
Thank you once again for your patience and understanding with me. I'm actually quite harmless. Never thought I would have caused any harm by trotting out Belushi as a Bunraku there ... Arrigato.
I never knew the "Cortland Street/Radio Row" since I came to NYC in 87, but yes, Canal st. I forgot about that. I remember the days when Radio Shack clerks would tell me to "Go to Canal St.!" whenever I was looking for some uncommon electronic part. So much for their "You've got questions, we've got answers" TV ads, I thought at the time.
The great thing about Akihabara is that you can go to that one building full of tiny shops and you can ask anyone of them,"where would I find a European SCART male plug?" they would answer right away, "Try the shop on the second floor on the third aisle a few shops before hitting the south wall". Last time I went there, I could find European RF to US/Japan F plug adapter and USB male and female plugs quite easily. Not an easy task in NYC. You have to go through mail order catalogs.
On the transit side, Akihabara will eventually get two new commuter lines. One would be an entirely new line, and the other would be the reconnection of the North-South mainline connection that was severed during the construction of the Tohoku Shinkansen extension to Tokyo Central Station.
> "Cowboys and Muslims" (attitude)
Disturbs me and scares me. maybe that's why I'm being more sensitive, these days.
Before I get going though, I'd like to first start off by setting aside a former point, that "cowboys and Muslims" (attitude) ... so many times, in so many cultures, many nations (ours and others) have abused whole groups of people as scapegoats for institutional failings. Disturbs and scares is an understatement since, with all the tribulations these have caused, so-called civilized societies STILL engage in such for expedience. And saldy, down the road, it'll happen again unless for ONCE we pay attention and learn. :(
As for New York's "Radio Row," it was something to be seen. It is often said that what once was here was the inspiration for Akihabara and many other such clusters of shops catering to the hobbyist around the world. Here are a couple of sites that will give you an idea of what once was and the history from which it derived:
http://commemoratewtc.com/history/facts/radio-row.php
NPR: Lost and found sound, the history of Radio Row
Antique Radio classified
It was really something. That's where I used to go in the 1950's and late 60's, as well as Canal Street and how I became a foamer on my way to and from there with my "booty" ... you could find anything from strange Euro DIN connectors to genuine Klystrons removed from radars, "guaranteed to light."
Sad today - it's either ALL Electronics or other catalogs, or getting ripped off by the likes of Digi-Key. Started out my life in electronics, was one of the first trained by Matsushita and SONY on PRE-EIAJ helical open reel VTR's, early plumbicon cameras (prior to saticon) becak in 1969, got to know and work with the legendary "VideoFreex", got involved in all sorts of things.
All started with Radio Row. Hope you enjoy the shots of what once was. When it all got sent over to where there were a few OTHER dealers on Canal Street, it wasn't quite the same and of course when all that surplus finally sold out, we ended up with the likes of Rat Shack. :)
Yeah, you'll like what you see when you have time ...
While I was there for the four weeks of "shaming the company" (heh) I got around a lot on JR and rode that line many times. Back then, in 1969, Shinkansen was just getting built, and that line was still running. If I remember correctly, they were also digging a tunnel to Honshu but had only just gotten started. I think New Yorkers would flip out at what passes for a "late train" back on the "home islands." I'm talking riots in the streets here. :)
> one yellow, one green and one a kinda dark teal colored
IIRC, officially they call them "canary yellow", "uguisu (Japanese nightingale bird) color" and "emerald green".
> 1964 Nishijin pachinko
Almost my age! LOL. I haven't played pachinko since 1992.
I don't know how to play the recent machines. I entered a parlor in 1999, but I couldn't even figure out how you buy the balls and didn't dare to ask how. You have to buy some kind of metrocard/phonecard type of card now.
> a tunnel to Honshu
You probably mean tunnel to Hokkaido. Honshu is the big main island.
By the time they finished it, I think I was already in NYC and JNR went JR around the same time.
One thing about 1969. That's the year my family moved to Paris, France. So while you were enjoying the 103s, I was riding the Spragues and MP59s holding my parents' hands.
Doesn't it seem strange that flying is safer than any ground-based mode of travel? Well, most people know that it is true (and I'm sure you do). The ultra-high-speed train is likely to be even safer.
Since seriously, how many people 100 years ago thought that flying would one day be safe?
In a Tunnel? Hah, you will see nothing but RATS.
Huge Mutant Montague Rats!
Now then, My fantasy of a high speed rail line between NYC and CHI on a dedicated, elevated ROW following the I-80 alignment with 250 mph trains (doable, yes)...
I would put no head lights on it, and there would be no wayside signals.
Before eather of these 19th century devices could show you anything of interest that you would have to stop for, you would already be 50 miles beyond the place where at you needed to stop anyway.
Nope, each control position has a display of the whole system and of every train runing on it. The ROW is elevated, and has no access whatsoever for trespassers no matter how fancy they are. Snow will just blow off of the ROW, it will not accumulate here.
There might not be a "railfan" window as you now know it, but there is no reason why there cannot be dome cars on this train.
Elias
Yup... they were great. They used to run them back in the '30s
Elias
Rats can't survive in a vacuumed tunnel.
But these are Montague rats!
--Z--
After watching it though, I suspect that Saddam's big oil pipe gun and a pyth helmet would be a better transportation alternative. :)
Or you could just go north, keep to the Continenal Shelf, use a proven cut and cover tunnel, without all the complications of some resonance-prone suspension tunnel, have frequent access to your tunnel, and cross the Mid Atlantic Ridge on or near the surface in Iceland. But I've already gone into WAAAAAY too much detail elsewhere.
Do you think you could convince Jean Cretien that we need to get one of these so I can put in a bid on the contract?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
:)
-Robert King
-Robert King
I would tend to agree.
Last week I attended a lecture at the University where the lecturer suggested that in the future we would be crossing the Atlantic in giant metal birds, and that the trip would take but a mere few hours!
I am surprised that they would allow this opium-addicted lunatic to spew his fantasies. What's next? Is he going to tell us that we will start sending men to the moon?
But this SHOW was bizarre, especially when they put it over the top with that errant submarine. Did you SEE it? John Belushi couldn't have come up with something as dumb after 6 speedballs. :)
On the other hand, please note that the time to get door to door from a given point in NYC to a given point in London has increased since 1960 (though it has gotten far cheaper and safer). Progress isn't always linear.
-Robert King
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
John
:-) Andrew
That's what I think.
-Robert King
It did have some Discovery-isms in it. Windows on a vacuum tunnel, wouldn't that be begging for cracks, or failure of the exterior? Why even windows on a train that will never see daylight in service? Plus their usual exaggerations and so on. And didn't that map they kept showing seem a bit warped? The Abyssal plain does not end at the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, it is merely interupted, continuing with 13000 foot plus depths on the east side as well.
But I guess that with them needing to compete with the Joe Millionares and other such drek they do need some wild estimations and such to really intrest people.
I also have reservations about them using a floating tunnel, waves do get some 300' down, submariners apparantly avoid large storms, and there could be the real possibility of a resonating wave forming along the track at the exact frequency of the structure, a situation not unlike that which destroyed the Tacoma Narrows bridge. Forget submarines, currents and the vagaries of the sea would play havoc with any kind of system trying to use it at 100mph, let alone what riders would experience at 5000mph, can you say seasickness? Also, currently the only things built in waters of such depth are Spar type floating oil rigs, of the kind found in the deepest waters of the Gulf of Mexico, and I think those are restricted to less than 10000 foot waters, since the wires cannot take the tension.
Unlike the program's conclusions, it would seem that a G-I-UK (Greenland, Iceland, United Kingdom) alignment would keep the underwater running to a minimum, while adding only some 600 miles to the run. It keeps it's route to less than 3000 foot waters, allowing for a cut and cover tunnel, like San Fran's Trans Bay tunnel, to be used. It also stands the chance of crossing the mid atlantic ridge over Iceland, thereby possibly allowing them to do it on an isolated bridge supporting the tubes aboveground, or at least in a much more easily managed shallow tunnel somewhere on the land portion of Iceland. Finally the line would be replete with possible locations for emergency depots and so on in the event of an emergency on a train, be it loss of train pressurization, or a medical emergency requiring the shipment of a passenger back to new york or europe for medical care.
The basic route would leave New York and head nearly straight north, following the Hudson and the NY-VT border, it would cross the canadian border near Berkshire, VT. From there it would pass just east of Montreal, perhaps they could get a spur, to serve a greater ridership. After crossing the St Lawrence Seaway near Trois Rivieres, and from there on north it's a lot of lakes and lot of trees. It will cross Hudson Strait around the towns of Kangiqsualujjuaq or Port Burwell, and flirt with the eastern fringe of Baffin Island, finally turning nearly stright east (after a nearly straight north-northereasterly run from NY) at Cape Dyer, perhaps south of theres, perhaps as far south as Leopold Island, diving 220 or so miles under Davis Strait to Greenland. This crossing just exceeds 2200 feet, well within the realm of current deep-sea construction techniques.
Greenland would be bounded in one quick run, straight east to the eastern coast of Greenland. Greenland would allow for perhaps two rescue bases, keeping them some 600 miles from each other, and allowing easy rescue. Iceland would be reached by a crossing the Denmark Strait, a crossing that never exceeds 2000 feet. The tunnel would strike land right around the large three pronged peninsula at the northwest corner of the island. Pretty quickly it would have to cross the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, since that runs roughly north northeast out of the area of Reykjavik, this could be done with extendible tunnels or something, in addition to shock absorbers to damp out the motion of the continents. The Mid Atlantic ridge is not a wall to any kind of tunnel, just a slight impediment, like a speed bump, but it can be bridged. And since Iceland has become a major eco-tourist destination for Europeans, a station there may not be too out of the question.
Leaving from the southeast corner of the island, the line truely crosses open ocean, not mere straights, going 294 miles between Iceland and the Faroes Islands, another ideal location for a rescue station. From there it'd be 230 miles to the Shetland or Orkney Islands off the coast of Scotland, but here would be the most challenging area, with a 3200 foot deep canyon separating the very southeastern side of the Faroes upthrust and the British Isles northern reachs. The Orkneys area would be perfect for a kind of switching nexus sending trains to London, Oslo and Amsterdam, all of them respectively 530, 500, and 560 miles from the Orkney's flyover.
Why Amsterdam of all places? It has excellent connections to the European HSR network, Thalys and TGV to France and Paris, ICE to Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
Running down the North Sea from the Orkneys to Amsterdam or London (I'm presuming that since the line is mostly the same, it could be run on the same line, at least down to around east of Norwich, where it would turn for the London Terminal, adding 100 or so miles from the North Sea to London. Of course running along the bottom of the North Atlantic would be childsplay compared to the other parts of the line, almost all of it south of the Orkney's is largely sub-1000 foot depths, with most of it sub 500 foot depths, making construction pretty easy. About the hardest thing might be the pipelines running to refineries and tanker loading platforms from the many off-shore wells, some of them might need to be moved. But that is actually a credit to a North Sea alignment, since it would allow Off Shore platform-type structures to be built as rescue platforms in lieu of islands. Yesterday (Tuesday), there was a show on the Shell Troll Oil platform on the eastern edge of the North Sea, just two of those platforms, massively shortened to 400 and 200 feet could directly touch the tunnel, splitting it into two 210 mile long sections, and the southern platform serving as the rescue platform for a switching interlock to London, from there it's 110 miles to Amsterdam and 210 miles to London.
Perhaps the Trans-Atlantic could even be compatible with the similar concept SwissMetro vacuum-maglev system. Not with SwissMetro running at 5000mph in the Trans-Atlantic tunnel, but with slower speed (500mph or slightly more) Trans-Atlantic trains traveling over SwissMetro's European lines to access places further in from the sea, and not just dumping all passengers at Amsterdam.
Oh well, a trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon we'll have found that through fuel savings we'll have saved a few trillion dollars and created an investment that our childrens childrens children will still be using because of it's reliablilty and efficiency.
The City & South London Railway (which bizarrely became half of the Northern Line!) originally had trains which you couldn't see out of for his reason. Passengers didn't like them.
sending trains to London, Oslo and Amsterdam, all of them respectively 530, 500, and 560 miles from the Orkney's flyover.
Why Amsterdam of all places?
A more obvious question is "Why Oslo of all places?".
Oslo only has a population of 757,787, about the same population as the English County of Derbyshire. A comparably sized American city would be Jacksonville - a decent sized city, but not worth building a multi-trillion dollar maglev vacuum tunnel to. The entirity of Norway (much of which is nowhere near Oslo) still only has a population of 4,438,547, slightly over half the population of London or New York.
…and this was an overnight trip!
However, when it’s dark for 6 months of the year, there are only a couple of things to do, drinking being one of them!
John
The sure operate that ferry to the right city if they want beer! Now all these Norges have to learn is how to stagger out of the pub at 11:20pm singing very loudly one of the following songs:
- Blaydon Races
- The Fog on the Tyne
- Keep Yer Feet Still Geordie Hinny
Real engineering considers failure modes and their consequences, and I can’t think but that any failure here would be catastrophic for the whole system:
A big vacuum tube underwater, with caulked joints. Leaks anyone? How do you flag the caulking team when the trains are running next to you at 5000MPH?!
Wear and tear: what happens when something falls off the train? There isn’t much clearance and at 5000MPH, the crash would be spectacular!
As a race, we have no experience about running a commercial service of anything anywhere at 5000MPH. Our only efforts at this sort of speed have been into space, and the reliability rate, unfortunately, is not anything like we need for regular service.
No. I could see some sort of 4-500MPH suspended train system running long distances (I believe we have the engineering skills to build a transcontinental system with a not too unreasonable investment) but the underwater tube is perhaps the 22nd Century’s Great Wonder of the World!
John
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I hope that the cars will not be like the Space Shuttle. As I said, two catastrophic failures in about 130 missions is not commercial grade technology.
Also, the Shuttle accidents only affected the occupants. A similar failure in an underwater vacuum tunnel is likely to be catastrophic to the whole tunnel.
Lastly, a vacuum doesn’t suck. Air pressure pushes. In a vacuum, there is no air resistance, so the train can reach high speeds without air friction.
I didn’t see the show (I hope to tape the Sunday repeat). Did they explain how they are going to build the tunnel to the tolerances required for magnetic levitation? Or how they’re going to stabilize a floating tube, so there are no perturbations? If you are running at 5000MPH and have a one-inch clearance, a small perturbation can cause you to hit the side. What happens then?
Seriously, I don’t doubt we can build models. I don’t doubt that we could build a tunnel segment a couple of miles long and put a train in it. I absolutely believe that contemporary human engineering capabilities are nowhere near what is needed to build such a structure and keep it running long term.
That’s not to say the Discovery Channel shouldn’t broadcast shows like this. We can all dream. However, I think the Mars Outpost (another Discovery segment) will come before the transAtlantic tunnel.
John
And before I forget Has Acela Express ever derail? LOL!!!
Oh well there is a first time for everything!
I think I'll try to sell Discovery on my old supersonic blimp idea...
Mark
I interpreted the show to be describing the extent of what is technically possible, not advocating that it in fact be done.
til next time
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
im guessing Train Dude ???
if you say so !
But regarding the Design of the R160 !
i dont think so !
Didn’t feel like digging in the archives!
PS Saturday is getting close! LOL
With the money invested in the design of the R-143, it wouldn't make sense to spend even more money to redesign the new R-160. The R-142 and 142A's are almost identical, looks like the R-143's and R-160's should follow suit.
Bill "Newkirk"
:-) Andrew
Actually more people took the subway in 1947, when all 10 foot cars had transverse seating, as did some 9 foot cars.
Its true the MTA will not order no more 75' Cars.
On those grounds the R4 would have been called the R1A, the R6 the R1B, the R7 the R1C, the R7A the R1D, and the R9 the R1E.
I certainly hope so. While I want 75' cars for selfish reasons (perpendicular seating), the benefits of 75' cars cannot be denied.
Perpendicular seating allows fewer people per square foot. That means they have to run more trains, with more capital and operational cost. I suspect we aren't ever going to see new cars with perpendicular seating again. One of the few lines where capacity isn't an issue (the J/M/Z) is one where 75' cars can't run.
The area in square feet that a seated person occupies is that same whether he is facing forwards, backwards or sideways.
Like the circumstances in which the TA makes most profit.
Let's be serious for a minute. When does the maximum standing capacity come into play on any B division line? A couple of hours a day on a few lines?
Yes it does. It is calculated by income minus expenditure. Sometimes it has a minus sign in front of it. This is bad.
True, but those hours are what determines the number of rush hour trains they have to run, and that determines the number of crews they have to pay.
If they could decrease the number of rush hour trains by 5% (or conversely, if they had to increase rush hour trains by 5%), total operational expenses for that line would decrease (or increase) by nearly 5% (not fully by 5% because the weekends wouldn't change).
I believe maximum capacity (with some margin for error) is important on the A, D, E, F, L, N (Astoria end), Q, and W lines.
I didn't advocate anything. I don't actually have a strong opinion on the matter. I was talking about NYCT, and also I was using the subjunctive mood, not the imperative.
No, that's not his argument.
You're fixated on seating. Seating is important, but it is not the only way, or even always the best way, to accommodate passengers.
1) Wheelchairs need accommodating. At minimum, you need to make sure the wheelchair can pass safely through the car, and of course the wheelchair will take the place of at least one seat, depending on the width of the wheelchair.
2) Train routes with relatively short passenger trips and large volumes of people getting on and off don't need seats at all - witness airport people movers. In the subways, trains where a lot of passenger circulation occurs on and off serve passengers better if a small% of seats is replaced by open space to put standees and give them smoother exits through the doors.
3) Reducing the number of seats does not automatically mean reducing the train frequency. By reducing the necessary dwell time and delays, however, you can reduce the number of trainsets needed to provide the same frequency - or use the same # of trainsets to provide even better service. That saves money.
You're looking at one solution, without asking what the peroblem is.
Wheelchairs are accommodated by a flip down seat. They take the floorspace of two seats. They do not reduce seating capacity.
2) Train routes with relatively short passenger trips and large volumes of people getting on and off don't need seats at all - witness airport people movers. In the subways, trains where a lot of passenger circulation occurs on and off serve passengers better if a small% of seats is replaced by open space to put standees and give them smoother exits through the doors.
The tried cars with no seats on the 42nd St Shuttle many years ago. It did not work. The experiment was abandoned in less than one month.
3) Reducing the number of seats does not automatically mean reducing the train frequency. By reducing the necessary dwell time and delays, however, you can reduce the number of trainsets needed to provide the same frequency - or use the same # of trainsets to provide even better service. That saves money.
Standees within a car will increase dwell time, if careful thought is not given to where people should stand so as not to interfere with people entering and exiting the cars. The car's design should encourage people to stand in these areas and to avoid areas where they interfere with entering and exiting passengers. The R143 design ignores such principles.
What factors are in play on the Shuttle that would lead to such a failure? Why should the airport people mover have no seats (or actually, a very few) and work out just fine?
"Standees within a car will increase dwell time, if careful thought is not given to where people should stand so as not to interfere with people entering and exiting the cars. The car's design should encourage people to stand in these areas and to avoid areas where they interfere with entering and exiting passengers."
The station itself also participates in this. For example, if passengers exits through the left side while entering from the right, efficient fow is maximized. But the subway system is not designed to do that.
Another way is to force people to exit only from the first 5 cars, while entering only from the last five cars (or vice versa). But that might not work out so well on the NY subway...
"The R143 design ignores such principles."
Please elaborate specifically as to how. You will find diagrams on this site
There are two problems. The A and B types for the R143 are quite different. Only the A type is shown. There are no dimensions for the diagram.
You already know the overall dimensions of the car. Since the diagrams are, in fact, to scale, there is no reason why you cannot estimate the surface area within reason. And the diagrams also accurately reflect the relationship between seating and standing areas.
You frequently like to post comments accusing the TA of incompetence and malfeasance. I am giving you an opportunity to prove your case. You state that the R143 ignores certain sound design principles.
If you cannot explain how, then I will reasonably assume you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Incompetence is fairly easy to deomonstrate.
We'll use inches as the measurment unit. Let the cars length be the y direction and its 120" width be the x direction. Let the origin be the center of a doorway. There are standee poles at (60, 0) and (25, 20). The first pole is in the center of the doorway and center of the car's width. The second pole is at the corner of the longitudinal set adjoining the doorway. The door width is 50", as can be guessed from the y-coordinate of the second pole.
A person holding onto a standee pole will be in the radial direction and take up 18"-27" in the radial direction, depending on how far his arm is extended.
What is the distance between the two poles.
Drop a perpendicular from the second pole to the point (20, 0) on the x-axis. This point and the two poles form a right triangle. The two legs of this triangle are 25" and 30", respectively. The hypotenuse, the distance between the two poles is: 39.05". Therefore if there are standees holding onto both poles, they will leave an aisle of only 3" maximum for people to go into the car. Indeed, a single person with arm extended will leave an aisle of only 12".
The minimum aisle width should be at least 18" to permit passengers to flow freely. A wheel chair requires 24".
This is where the TA placed the poles to attract standees.
There is something basically wrong with a design that impedes passenger flow into the car's interior, when people are standing where they are supposed to.
If you cannot explain how, then I will reasonably assume you simply do not know what you are talking about.
qed
No. More and safer CAPACITY AND ACCESS are the true goals. Seats represent one tool to accomplish those goals. Seats are not the only tool, however.
Not by much. Remember, passengers must be able to enter and exit cars easily. This means that not every square foot can be occupied. When one accounts for this, then the difference is only marginal.
Tight double seating allots 0.36 m2 per passenger. Comfortable seating allots 0.54 m2 per passenger. Standards for standing passengers are: 0.2 m2 per passenger - uncomfortable near crush load...with frequent body contact...moving to and from doorways extremely difficult; 0.3 m2 - a reasonable service load with occasional body contact...moving to and from doorways requires some effort and 0.4 m2 - a comfortable level without body contact...reasonably easy circulation.
The closer one gets to providing an adequate level of service, the less advantageous standing is for capacity. For NYCT the service level for IRT cars is 110, which translates to 0.38 m2 per passenger; the service level for 75 ft cars is 175 which translates to 0.40 m2 per passengers; the service level for 60 foot cars is 145 which translates to 0.38 m2 per passenger. So, the penalty for more seats vs. standees is the difference between 0.38 and 0.40 or only 5.2%.
1. NYCT is avoiding perpendicular seating on recent car orders because the 5% extra capacity IS important to them.
2. There is another reason not related to total passenger capacity for ordering cars with parallel seating even when they are 60' cars such as the R-143s.
3. The MTA doesn't really know what it's doing and is basing car purchasing contracts on faulty premises.
There are two reasons why people are encouraged to stand near the doors on the TA's 75 foot cars. The first is that there is too little door space. The second is that the presence of poles and other features that encourage people to stand in the doorways.
OTOH, the BMT Standards were designed with passenger circulation in mind. There were design drawings showing a full service load and how passageways existed to provide passenger circulation within the car.
It doesn't have to be that way. If the transverse seats were staggered, there would still be a wide passageway, but that would have violated the same 70's design principles that brought us state seals and plastic wood.
But eliminating the transverse seats entirely creates an even wider passageway. Sounds good to me, especially if the plastic wood is also abandoned.
The narrower transverse narrow aisle created by transverse seats does not block access to the nearest doorway. The transverse seats are midway between the doors. There are nothing but longitudinal seats between any transverse seat and the closest doorway. Therefore, the path to the nearest doorway is just as wide or narrow, as if all the seat area were longitudinal.
Clearly, people should be discouraged from blocking the aisle between transverse seats. However, if a person does not have to go through an aisle to reach the closest door, then the this blocked aisle does not directly interfere with loading and unloading the car.
The BMT solved the problem of preventing people from blocking the narrower aisle caused by transverse seating. They placed a grab handle on the seat for its transverse seats that would accommodate only a single person. By contrast, the R-types use a pole at the end of the transverse seats which attacts a many more people to where they should not stand. The Standards had poles, where they wanted passngers to stand - where there was longitudinal seating. The Standard's poles were also offset from the doorways so that its standees would not block the doorways. The Standards had less aisle congestion than the R-types even though they used 3x2 seating.
The narrow aisle discourages passengers from moving well away from the doors, for fear that a thick crowd will block access to the nearest door and the seats themselves will block access to the next nearest door. The most accessible door is not necessarily the nearest one.
You say that "people should be discouraged from blocking the aisle between transverse seats." But you also say that people should be encouraged to move away from the doors. The aisle between transverse seats is as far away from the doors as they can get. By discouraging people from blocking the aisles, you're also encouraging them to congregate by the doors.
That asile is not that much narrower than that for longitudinal seating.
A longitudinal seat extends 20" from the wall. Add an additional 10" for the occupants' knees and foot for a total of 30". The transverse seat for 2 people extends 35" from the wall. So, with people sitting on the seats, a 10' wide car the aisle is 50" wide between transverse seats as opposed to 60" wide for the longitudinal seats. The door width is also 50". So, the aisle between transverse seats is no more nor less a barrier to free flow than does the doorway.
In both cases it is the people who are blocking the doorway that provide the imediment. Placing poles on the transverse seats draws passengers to the wrong spot.
There are only 2 Queens Boulevard Express lines: the E train and the F train. You could call at 3 at a push by defining the E trains to 179th/Hillside another line. Your figure of 4 however doesn't match with reality. Both (or all three) are indeed running under 100% capacity, but not by so much that it'd be a good idea to throw 5.2% of the capcity away, particularly in rush hour.
Personally, I prefer transverse seating, but can see the advantage in whatever the sideways one's called. I particularly like that type of transverse seating with 2 seats on one side of the train and 1 on the other with the little sign on the carriage reading "First Class". Maybe there should be First Class subway cars...
The only line which any amount of extra capacity a seating design would generate is needed is the east side IRT.
You're misiniterpreting the situation.
First, if a line averages under 100% but spikes to close to 100%, as is the case with Queens Blvd, you cannot base equipment decisions on the average number. Second, new cars which are fully ADA compliant and designed for better passenger circulation are trading a few seats to get those improved functions.
Third, most of the excess capacity is on the locals, not the expresses. Cars with slightly fewer seats can handle crowds much better (indeed, look at some airport "people movers" - no seats at all!); people who insist on seats can redistribute themselves to local trains.
So the TA isn't as incompetent as you would like to think they are.
"Spikes" can be handled two ways. One could design for an average plus a couple of standard deviations to make bring the probabliity of on time performance up to a stated standard. One could also look at the "spike" period. For example on the Queens Blvd line, the 15 minute peak period is 20% greater than the 1 hour peak period average.
Second, new cars which are fully ADA compliant and designed for better passenger circulation are trading a few seats to get those improved functions.
It's not the placement of the seats that inhibits passenger circulation; it's the placement of the standees. The new car design does not address this.
Third, most of the excess capacity is on the locals, not the expresses.
So, one should conclude that solutions that are designed to increase local service rather than express service will not be the most effective solution.
Cars with slightly fewer seats can handle crowds much better (indeed, look at some airport "people movers" - no seats at all!);
The load levels of airport "people movers" is so much less than existing service on the Queens Blvd line that comparisons are not warranted.
people who insist on seats can redistribute themselves to local trains.
People who insist on seats have redistributed themeselves into automobiles. One will have to provide seats, should one wish to redistribute them back onto public transit.
So the TA isn't as incompetent as you would like to think they are.
The TA has a lot of operational and economic problems. They are not forthright about them, insofar as explaining many operational decisions. The reasons they do give are transparent fabrications. This leaves many observers to conclude that they must be incompetent, if they believe that somebody will buy their fabricated reasons.
I think you've described the problem perfectly.
But I think the public deserves part of the blame. They often play some version of kill the messenger. Just as an example (and I don't want to get into a political thread here), Bloomberg is the opposite. He says we're broke, with no sugar coating, and as a result many people who voted for him (I didn't) now say he's doing a terrible job.
Whereas other unnamed politicians rode on a wave of popularity by saying everything was wonderful. No wonder the TA doesn't want to say things like "you're stuck with this particular situation because of decisions we made 10 years ago".
And the reason certain decisions were made 10 years ago are rooted in thgose politicians and in us - we elected them, we told the TA what we did and did not want (only we offer 160 opinions, very few of which sound alike), and the TA, imperfect animal that it is, made decisions. Some great, some lousy, some average.
But you and Stephen and I and others like us are as much to blame as the TA is, in our own ways.
False statement. On a per car basis (square foot) airport people movers can be every bit as crowded as a New York City subway car. This makes them, for short trips, a perfect comparator.
Next economic boom, the E and F will be back over 100% even with the addition of the V and the 63rd St tunnel. Transverse seating would make life even more miserable in the rush hour. 5% loss of space isn't much except when you're already at 105% of capacity.
There are 71 trains assigned to the am rush hour E and F. Only 31 are 60 footers. That means the average alloted area per person is 0.391 m2. Conversion would mean only a 2.2% increase in capacity would be necessary.
Let me count the ways:
1. go back to using 11-car trains - 10% increase
2. go back to running 34 tph - 13% increase
3. operate 6 additional V's from 179th St and run local from Forest Hills - 20% increase
4....
They are called Transverse Seating.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
New York City Transit BVE Auhtority
David
Maybe if it's not too late, we can go for 3 axle Commonwealth type trucks for 'em. Obviously we need SOME kind of unique "spotting feature" ... :)
For a post to cause harm someone has to at least read it. If you stop looking at "off-topic" posts they will loose their power and go away.
CG
I used to work near LAX inLos Angeles. Watching planes taking off and landing was a distraction.
Now one of my duties is with a county agency. My wife jokes that I work at the "mysterious island of beautiful women." There are very few men there.
Somebody has to do it...:0)
Mysterious island of beautiful women, huh? I guess the move to KC wasn't so bad after all.
CG
Glad you got out! :-)
Tom
I stand at the corner of Bway & Cooper Sts, look out for the B60, B20, Q24, or (J) train, whichever comes first. This maximizes my options and minimizes my chances of arriving to school late (which, bizarrely, happens anyway).
From the B60:
-to Fulton, Euclid-bound (C), if lucky transfer to (A) at Bway Jct, to Euclid.
-to ENY Ave, then B12 to Fountain Ave.
-(there was a time, before the extension of the school day, when I took the B60 to Rockaway, caught Manhattan-bound (C), and was able to connect at Utica with the Queens-bound (A). Nowadays when I try that I always miss the connection.)
From the B20:
-to Bway Jct. From there, A, C, J, B12, or Q24.
From the Q24:
-to Norwood Ave.
-to Bway Jct. From there, A, C, J, or B12.
From the (J):
-to Norwood Ave.
-to Bway Jct. From there, A or C.
Or, if I'm feeling lucky or running early, I can walk to Wilson and get the (L) to Bway Jct, transfer to A, C, or J. I do this every day on the return trip, unless the (L) is screwed up.
Most mornings, I end up on the (J) to Bway Jct and transfer to the A/C. Of course on Tuesdays I can't take the B60 because the entrance at Rockaway is not open at 7:15 AM and I have zero period.
When I was in second grade (first semester) I used to take the (L) to Livonia then the (3) (or whatever stray train arrived) to Pennsylvania. Back then, before MetroCard, student passes could be used as many times as you wished! So I didn't have to worry about the transfer. What I did have to worry about was going to school next to the Livonia El, in a classroom with a window that faced it.
Utica, where I transfer to the B46 to Eastern Parkway then to the (4) if working in Blkyn or
Fulton where I transfer to any train taking me to where I need in Manhattan or the Bronx.
To work since I work in Elisabeth new jersey I drive there and when I drive back home I pray that there wont be no traffic and no state troopers when im speeding.
Vlad
In past times I have walked to work at various locations in midtown (when it rains, taking the 4/5/6, or L and F, or L and A/C/E, depending on the destination). At other times I have also driven to the suburbs.
Well, I live and work in the same building. I don't even have to use the elevator! : )
OK, when I lived on 102nd Street and worked at 34th&5th I'd take the (1) one stop to 96th, and then the (2) or (3) to 34th street, and then WALK from 7th to 5th.
OK when I lived in Brooklyn and worked at 34th & 5th or later at 31st and 7th, I'd take the (QB) DeKalb to 34th Street. (I could have taken the (F) from Bergen to 34th Street, and had LESS walking at both ends, but I didn't *like* the (F) train. It was like riding in a tank car full of molasses going through the Rutgers and Local through the Alphabet Soup.
OK when I lived in MERRICK and worked at 31st and 7th, I drove to the dation and took the LIRR. I walked from NYP to work, which was just across the street in any event.
: ) Elias
If it's a vehicle, I want it to be fun. I hate appliances....
Ok, it's not streetable, but this might not be too far off in the future for me (I'm already starting to look into running my bike out at the strip this summer, if I'm having fun, then I'll upgrade to 4 wheels...).
The arguements for Super Comp are numerous (and I've got two opinions already that say that from a crash engery standpoint, very convincing, though Jersey mike wouldn't agree :) , though it all boild down to if i feel I want to take the plunge or not, and I figure I've got one or two years to research it first.
Well, maybe, it's technically doable, but %^%&%^ expensive (though no more so than my dad's hobbies, but still a bit of a stretch, though tolerable if I and stay local and not get overly competitive) and a logistics nightmare (the REAL problem to solve :( and it's going to be a bear at best. ), so it wouldn't be that easy (but damm, they gotta be fun - running ~~8 secs at ~~170mph.)
Then again, I doubt I'd look at it if it was. I figure (and talking over it over dinner with a few friends) the bulk of it is going to be money (initially - if I get real serious, I can snag a sponsor or two I guess, though i'm not sure who the hell would sponsor me: ( ), followed by the operations 1/2 - getting around (though some partial, though not optimal, solutions exist there), ground support (again, some exist here but I don't want to overwork them), engine / setup (depending on the detonation/rebuild rate, this could be an almost non issue, or a show stopper), scheduling (It's a hobby, not a job, I can't wrap my life around it. This is the big problem here),time (Life can and does go on), skill (a question mark in my mind, though not exactly a big one, I either can or can't), physical (almost a total non issue, I'll either like being thrown down a 1/4 mile in 7 or 8 secs, or I'll hate it, this is basically related to the prior mentioned point).
My current goals are more realistic (very) - get the feel for the strip with my bike (my friend Tony thinks I have a deathwish...), have fun (hopefully, but I know I probbably will), not kill myself (or the bike, but I doubt I will), and see if I can get into the low 12s or 11s on my bike - a real stretch, but technically feasable. I don't want to kill the bike (though the motor's getting it's annual this winter), but I'd like to see what it can do.
I figure it'll be a few hard first steps (running my bike at the strip, I have NO support whatsoever from anyone, though Tony says he might be willing to critique my launches if i need it, neither of my parents want anything to do with it, and my other friends don't know ^%$%^ about drag racing, or bikes for that matter), then a big long (2 - 3 years) research period, followed by either nothing, or a sumer of experimentation leading into some light competition (rules, points standings, etc come into play here, I just want to have fun initially, well, always), followed maybe by a maybe a more serious summer, followed by a hard running one, then an off year, then an on, etc. Repeat until no longer practical, or boredom steps in, then decided to go up or find something else to do.
Ambitious? Yes. Carved in stone? No. Difficult? Yes. Feasable? Yes. worth it? I have no clue yet, that's what I'm going to figure out this summer....
Worked:
* 95 cubic inch motor (Twin Cam, OEM cases, HD jugs)
* Wood TW-8 cam
* Axtell pistons
* S&S E with Thunderjet
* Andrews pushrods
* JIMS roller rockers
* Hillside heads
* Wood springs / retainers (titanum, IIRC)
* HD/SE ignition
* Stock headers / SE slip ons (soon to be a ProPipe)
* HD oil cooler
About 10.5:1 compression (actually a bit higher, it's shot plugs a few times)
The bottom end is amazingly stock.
Chassis:
* PM forged wheel , front (aluminum).
* PM 6 pistion caliper (11.5")
* Progressive Suspension front/rear
* HD solid cast wheel (rear)
* Painted by John Harding (Rolling Thunder's resident painter)
* Mustang seat (matched to the paint - he did a great job)
* Kuryakyn pegs/grips
* Iron Braid controls
* Barnett cables (throttle, clutch)
* Metzler tires front / rear
About 40,000 miles on it, built up by Bob at RTC.
Pulls wicked hard in 1st / 2nd (I take 600's off the line on the Sunrise hwy no problem at all ;) Can lift the front in 1st easily. Pulls hard in 3rd up to 80 at about 1/2 throttle (I rarely get wide open), pulls pretty hard up to 90 - 100. Will accelerate to 110+ up hill no problem. Will maintain 90mph all day, has been run at 100 for a few miles continuous (I once got passed by an old guy in a Toyota going 95 on Rt 2 in CT mid day), tracks like a dream at 80 - 90 in curves. Gets about 35mpg in mixed, hard riding.
Very demanding bike to ride, it can be downright brutal off the line, and can turn on you faster than you'd imagine. A slow turn can be downright dealdly if you accidently snap the throttle. Hard acceleration on anything but a perfect road will result in slippage. Rolling burnouts on wet roads are easier than you want. I never really totally relax on it, but it is a rewarding bike to ride. Cruise is about 1/8th throttle and 70-75mph in 5tth on flat land. It will try to get away from you - even small changes in incline can cuase surprising speed buildups. Being a rubbermount, it is decivingly smooth. Small throttle changes can cause large swings in speed, even in 5tth.
There are very few people I've let ride my bike,and the only ones are those who I know can handle it - it's not your average Harley at all. I've settled into a good relationship with it, and I've come to know it - and learned the hard way how tempermental it (she?) can be. It was a huge step up from my Sportster, and it took a while to build it to the point it is now. My Sportty took care of me, this thing does too, but has tried to spit me off a few times.
A great runner, surprisingly fast, demanding, and not average, but I wouldn't sell it, it's simply an enjoyable bike.
As a side note, one of the few times I've ever relaxed on it was this Tuesday night, comming home from Manhattan on the upper level of the 59th St bridge. Beautiful weather, the city was lit up nicely at 9:15 PM, and there was no traffic. The bike wanted to roll at a steady 40 in 3rd, and I took a few minutes as I crossed the bridge to just soak in the view of the city. Manhattan on a bike is NOTHING like a car - the view is much better, the riding style is much different, and it's very difficult, I rarely do it, but I do well.
And the views are simply rewarding.
for me i still drive a suzuki GSR-R1000 !
nice hamster on steroids !
but i still love a classic "HOG" !
thanks for the info !
Vlad
I've ridden Ninja 600s, they have no guts whatever below 80mph. I don't think a 750 is much better. A 1000 will take me fairly easily, but I drive the local 600's and older 750's nuts because I just cream them off the line. I'll get blown off over 80 - 90, but below that, I can get them with the mind games.
The direct approach is the F two stops from Prospect Park to 4th Avenue, followed by the M/N/R to Whitehall or Broad. I have to guess which is coming, to figure out whether to stand in the front or rear of the train. 30 to 35 minutes.
Other times I walk across Prospect Park and take the 2/3 from Grand Army Plaza to Nevins, and change to the 4/5 to Bowling Green. 40 to 45 minutes.
Sometimes in summer I take the Brighton to Prospect Park and walk across the park. That takes 50 to 60 minutes.
Sometimes I hop the 4/5 at Bowling Green, switch to the A/C and then to the F on the way home. That can take as little as 25 mintues, but with three trains to catch, it has a high rate of delay.
When I was at City Planning, I often walked across the park, got on the IRT at Grand Army, got off the IRT at Borough Hall, and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge.
Now that I think of it, next nice day I'm going to take the F to the A/C at high street and walk over the bridge, then board either the J/M/Z or the 4/5 to the Battery. 55 minutes, and worth every one.
Twice in the last two weeks, I've observed an M train leaving Broad southbound (at 5:20 and 5:30, not during Passover), with an estimated 400 passengers, i.e., fewer passengers than seats.
Would it make sense in 2004 (not that NYCT would do it) to terminate the M at Broad and extend the W instead, so that at least there's a critical mass of locals in one set of stations?
In the city I can have real fun, if it's 45 or so minutes to class and a nice day, I'll ride to the end of the line at 15-16th and Locust then walk from there to about 32nd & Chestnut or so. If it's about 30mins before class, I'll get off at 8th and Market and head upstairs for a bus, either a 33 or 17 connecting to a 31 at City Hall (nice cause it'll drop me off steps from Nesbitt Hall) or a 44,124 or 125 to 30th St station, then walk up to Drexel. Finally, if I'm racing to class, like 10 minutes to get from 8th and market to class, I'll always go for the MFL to 30th or 34th sts, nothing can touch that thing for getting crosstown fast.
Pretty much the same story going home, cept that I'll NEVER ride the Subway Surface to school, I just don't want to ruin it, the MFL is for getting to school, the subway-surface is for going home. In nice weather I've been going out and catching busses home, especially the 9 bus now that it runs from 30th st station down to Chestnut, getting me one block closer to 15-16th Locust than it used to when it was on Market. And on nice fridays I'll ride the NJT AC line home, dropping a buck thirty to get from lindenwold to my car at woodcrest.
Walk from my Lindenhurst apt. on E. Hoffman Ave. and Wellwood Ave. two blocks to elevated LIRR station. Take 6:39 skip-stop express to Merrick (stops Copaige and Amityville, skips Massapequa Park, Massapequa and Seaford, stops Wantagh, Bellmore and Merrick). Got off at Merrick, caught 7:05 N51 to EAB Plaza. NEVER missed the connection if I caught that 6:39 train. The good thing was, going home, I had at least 4 other ways to get back to Lindenhurst via public transit. Pretty good for the suburbs.
Worst commute:
Hitchhike on Southern State Parkway from Islip to "any train station or subway station". Get to Penn Station or any PATH station. Go to Newark Penn. Take Washington Ave bus up to Belleville. Generally, it took 2 1/2 to 3 hours. And coming home. Had to do that one for about 4 months. The only good thing was it gave me a chance to appreciate Newark. And opened up a new world of trains west of the Hudson.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
avid
I roll out of bed and scratch myself in various places while walking the five steps into the adjacent room to turn on my computer.
Tom
You should get that checked out. I know a good doctor.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
South End 7715,7714,7713,7712,7711,7716,7717,7718,7719,7720 North End
How many trains of R-142s are running on the #4 if I may ask.?
#3 West End Jeff
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
#3 West End Jeff
AMI
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Marx R15 are a joke compare to thr pro built Brass R15 i got one in ho scale ! And no i wont sell it !
So I'm wondering what train will come first, when what should come down the express track but a G! This G had been ordered to run express from 71-Continental to Queens Plaza. Wow! This is the perfect train for me.
It switched over to the local track and proceeded to skip all local stations (except for 36th St, when we were stopped at a signal so the T/O gave the two buzzes and we opened the doors).
I wonder why it went express? It couldn't have been the trackage since it actually ran down the local after 71-Continental (it was on the express track there). The only thing I can think of is that the G was very late getting started, maybe because it was very late from its last trip, so they ran it express the only possible place, at the beginning.
Maybe a train stalled on the local and you were rerouted around him so things didn't get backed up.
Bill "Newkirk"
That'd be logical, only the G ended up running express on the local track west of 71/Continental. If there was a stalled train, they'd have had to run it on the express track, and if it's local anyway, why not stop and open the doors unless they're doing it for time purposes.
A
Since I also commute using the 6th Avenue line in Manhattan, I'd even settle for running the V express between Jay St. and Church Av. using Bergen Lower Level and, again, stopping @ 7th Av., then turning the V at Church. Of course, the broken Bergen switch problem would need to be fixed, and more rolling stock needs to come on line, and we'd have to figure out where to turn the G so it doesn't block the V express at 4th Av.......
F express Jay to Church, then peak express direction only from Chruch to KH, then local to Ave X (Stillwell in May, 2004)
V local from Jay to KH (terminate)
G to Church (must go local, cannot run express)
Always note this: One line using a certain track to perform relays (doubling back to start of route), cannot have any other line in use. So if there are 2 lines needed to relay, then a minimum of two tracks are needed and no other line is allowed to use them unless it is an emergency order by the Division's Trainmaster.
How does this work, given the track configuration at KH?
Take a look at this and you'll see that's not true.
There is no way you can terminate a Culver Local at KH and operate a Culver Express to CI without cutting off service to Avenue U Northbound.
That was the service plan on the Culver line from 1954 (as D train), through 1967 (as F train) until 1990.
On the other hand, the track map certainly says it can't be done.
I seem to remember some postings about a switch being removed, thus making the previous service infeasible. There definitely is a very obvious switch missing on the map in the northbound direction after Ave U.
~W
til next time
wayne
COCK-A-DOODLE DOO! It's ROSTER, you so called college student.
Thank You For Your Time.
I think you mean the Joe Korner site...
Feeling nostalgic?
Anyway, if you are going to use the bullets, download them to your own site. I do not promise I will not break external linking to the bullets some day.
Please Request File Type BMP, JPG or GIF or I can send all 3 formats.
Bill "Newkirk"
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks!
John Kiernan
R142/R143MAN
Uh The 1101-1110 are not R142A those are Bombardier R142 cars. R142A are 7220-7730
Bombardier R142
6301-7180,1101-1220,1221-1250
AMI
Actually, more Redbirds should have been preserved for revenue service. It NEVER hurts to have extra cars.
AMI
Shouldn't that be 7211-7730 for the R-142As?
This has made a mess of my numbers book to the extent that I may have to create a new one! (but I am due for one anyway, last one is 1996).
thanks in adv. for any help on this one
wayne
AMI
With at least 1,800 new numbers needed for only one car class, how are you going to assign them?
1 through 1090?
2930 through 3299?
Most likely car numbers in the roster will be 8400 through 9900 (now that's only about 1,500, what about the other 300?)
Assume they go 8401-9999 that is 1599 numbers, 1600 if they use 10000.
Now add the 370 from 7730 to 8100 that's another 370, total 1969.
If they start some 4-car set by using numbers 8313-8400, that's another 88 for a total of 2057
I guess we'll have to see exactly what gets replaced.
wayne
Sad to say I hope the 600+ R32 Brightliners will not go first, but we may have to wake up to reality at this point.
THE RAILFAN WINDOW IS DYING!!!! SOB!!!!
The numbers above were a whole trainset that I rode from Atlantic Av. to 42nd St. - Grand Central.
AMI
AMI
AMI
AMI
Which begets several questions:
1. Is Bergen interlock now fixed or on the way to being fixed?
2. Why is the V being made the express while the F remains the local?
3. Is this rush hours only?
Any comments?
On its way, according to other postings.
(2. Why is the V being made the express while the F remains the local?
3. Is this rush hours only?)
The obvious guess: It is rush hours only, so they want to be consistent. The express is only during rush hours, and so it's the train that only runs during rush hours, namely the V.
If the N is running express along the Sea Beach, what train will be making local stops north of Stillwell?
They mean express on 4th Ave only.
Good news.
Also, it is not unusual for local trains in Manhattan to run express somewhere in the boroughs. The F and E are Manhattan locals, but express in Queens. The F had an express service in Brooklyn too until the Bergen fire.
I say, look at the proposed V express as an express Sixth Av service; whether it's the V or the F is secondary.
F trains had not run express in brooklyn decades before the fire.
Clearly, it must be!! It also means they have plans to renovate the lower level at Bergen St. Perhaps that has already started, and we just don't know it!
(Why is the V being made the express while the F remains the local?)
There tend to be more complaints when you change an existing route than when you add a new one. There hasn't been a Culver express for decades, so F riders are used to it being a local in Brooklyn. Those riders will simply keep what they've had, and those who would benefit from express service will have a new option.
Also, I'm sure the V to Brooklyn won't run at all times. It's simpler to explain the service pattern if the F always serves the same stations.
(Is this rush hours only?)
The article doesn't say. It certainly won't be 24/7.
As an aside, I would guess that this proposal seriously diminishes the likelihood of the Brookfield airport express proposal getting built. That proposal suggested re-routing the C through the Rutgers St tunnel, so that the Cranberry St tunnel could accommodate a new airport express. My guess is that the Rutgers St tunnel can't accommodate the F, the C, and the V.
Like me! I sure hope this is true. If it is, I can't wait for the service, since I mine is an unused express stop, 7th Av, which will then have V service on the middle tracks. Woo hoo!
Incidentally, you can see several fluorescent lamps illuminating the tracks leading to Bergen lower level, so they must be doing some serious work on the interlocking.
YESSSSSSS!
If there is express V service, then the G can't turn at Smith 9th right...does that also mean the G run to Churc Avenue?
Sending an Additional service out the Culver IS A GOOD IDEA, BUT
But I would send the (V) as a 6th Avenue Local to CHAMBERS STREET,
and I would send the (C) as an 8th Ave Local to Kings Highway via the Rutgers. Send the (E) as an 8th Avenue EXPRESS out Fulton Street via the Cranberry as a local.
1) Sixth Avenue NEEDS access to DOWNTOWN, send the (V) there and watch it's ridership go up.
2) The Culver does not need two trains to 6th Avenue. Let the (F) train run as the Culver Local to Coney Island 24/7; and let the (C) run as the Culver Express 16/5
3) Send the (E) as an 8th Avenue Express to reduce EXP/LCL merges downtown. Ie... All Exp via Cranberry, all Local (the (V)) to Chambers.
: ) ELias
Although, if you follow my suggestion and run the (F) on 6th Avenue and the (C) to 8th Avenue, and if Lower Level Bergen *is* opened, there will not need to be any consternation as to which platform to wait on.
6th Avenue and Crosstown trains on the Upper Level;
8th Avenue trains on the Lower.
Since going uptown, the only difference is the Avenues, it will be no percentage in platform guessing unless you really *are* headded to a station in Alphabet Soup Land.
: ) Elias
How are you going to deal with the constant merging at West 4th st local tracks (south of that station?) with C and V trains? This will back up existing service, headways on the C line must be increased to match Culver Express service in Brooklyn. And the E line will be among the worst line in terms of on-time performance (Queens Blvd traffic, 2 major transportation hubs, longer routing). This is one major reason why the E was shortened to WTC (Hudson Terminal), while the C line (CC line) was extended to Fulton St. And added E service will put a strain on rush hour A service in Brooklyn. A trains in Brooklyn need 3-4 minute headways, while C trains run every 7-10 minutes.
That is exactly the heart of my sugestion....
There is a flying crossover south of W4th St that allows local trains to make this swap.
There is no reason why the combined (A) (E) on Fulton Street cannot handle 30 tph through the Cranberry Tunnel. There is no switching/merging on the 8th Avenue Express between Hoyt Schermerhorn and 42nd Street.
The only issue is the merge of the (C) and the (F) coming into Houston Street. The Rutgers is way under used, and has all of the capacity that it needs. There is no need for the (C) and the (F) to be ballanced.
Elias
Another reason why the IND was built with track efficiency in mind. Look how peak trains on the Concourse line do not have to merge anywhere.
True, but the traffic on the Fulton St Line doesn't need 30 tph.
True, but you gotta turn your trains *somewhere*, and if a few extra trains on the Fulton is the price one must pay to get 6th Avenue passengers to downtown, and without extra merge points, then I'd say Go For It!
Sometimes a place gets more service than it needs, just because that is the best terminal available.
Elias
Get the same benefit by switching Cs with Vs and switching Es with Fs. In addition, at least in theory, reverse rush hour 8th Ave local service (Penn to E 53rd) should improve, because now northbound Es originate in CI rather than having to come from Jamaica to WTC to Penn.
This switch probbably needs to wait until the Bleecker transfer is completed, because otherwise Culver to Park/Madison Ave passengers are seriously messed up. It will probably also never happen because Culver passengers prefer 6th to 8th, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.
Lets make the (F) 6th Avenue Local to Chambers.
That would send the (E) 8th Avenue/Culver Local
Now, I'd send the (V) 6th Avenue Local/Culver Express via Rutgers
Which would leave the (C) where it is, though I would want to run it express from Hoyt-Schermehorn to 59th Street.
Elias
It makes more sense to the PASSENGERS to have more options!
What you think this is Russia! We got SWITCHES on our lines!
: ) Elias
well try russian subway yard plenty of switces there !
I'll bet... but they don't have the interline flexibilities that we have, nor do they have an Express Train!
But then it is Manhattan's shape that requires all north-south trains and makes the express a viable option.
Elias
So have they - they just don't use them, resulting in the most stupid terminal arrangement on earth at Alexandrovsky Sad on the Filiyovskaya. Yes, this is one that makes Flatbush on the 2/5 Lines look sensible. There is an X crossover before the station then - you guessed it - two side platforms. The tracks then continue straight through the station (but are not used), with the next station being Ploshad' Revolyutsii on the Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya. Why the hell isn't through service run?
In fact, why the hell was the Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya West of Ploshad' Revolyutsii ever built? Its only stops are Arbatskaya, Smolenskaya and Kievskaya, all at stations on the Filiyovskaya, but about two levels deeper. It makes precisely no sense!
Arti
Okay, Cold War hype. The Cold War ended 11½ years ago. The deep section is less convenient than the cut-and-cover above it and the Western end of the deep line doesn't have a track connection to anything. It looks like it would be cheaper and more convenient to close the deep section and run all trains on the cut-and-cover tracks. The deep section will still be there as a bunker in case the Yanks decide to nuke Moscow (which I think we can safely say will never happen)... Perhaps I should write to Moskovsky Metropolityen imyeni V.I. Lenina (at least I think they've de-dedicated it!) asking why they still operate this bizzare service pattern.
Oh and one other thing - as the combined line would now once again be the only line running under Arbat, it could become the plain Arbatskaya again instead of the Arbatsko-Pokrovsko-mouthfulskaya.
Arti
There have been several proposals to extend A-P Westwards ever since it was built in the 50s, none of which have actually come to anything (does this remind you of anything?).
The current map (2003) is probably the most realistic in only showing a one station extension to Park Pobyedy. Interestingly, it also shows a planned branch from the Filyovskaya (evidently using that extra capacity you referred to) after Kievskaya to Moskva-Siti, with intermediate stops at Dorogomilovskaya and Mezhdunarodnaya.
(Another map this year showed the same planned extension on the A-P, but a different one on the Filyovskaya - instead of the branch after Kievskaya, three extra stations are planned beyond Krylatskoye - viz. Strogino, Volokolamskoye and Mitino. NB Metro Planet seems to have come up with a 4th station between Krylatskoye and Strogino at Troitse-Lykovo)
This map from 1992 is slightly more adventurous with the A-P extension - it shows 3 stops - Park Pobyedy, Sportivnaya (interchange with the Kirovsko-Frunzyenskaya) and Leninsky Prospyekt (interchnage with the Kaluzhsko-Rizhskaya).
This map from 1975 puts the IND Second System to shame. Amongst a zillion other things, there is a branch off the Filyovskaya after Kuntsyevskaya and a huge two-branched extension of the A-P. The same plan is more legibly presented on this 1973 map and also this 1971 map.
1957 is interesting. It completely omits the Filyovskaya (as it was closed at the time), showing a planned extension of the A-P to Fili only.
Metro Planet seems to have gone back to the 1950s with its planned extension, with beyond Park Pobyedy, the proposed line continuing to Kuntsyevskaya on the Filyovska and taking over the Western End of the line. This would leave the Filyovska radically shortened and potentially useless.
My view on these extensions is that the ones from the mid-1970s are frivolous and never will happen; the one from 1957 and the current one on Metro Planet are grossly wasteful, given that the Filyovskaya was built; the only plan beyond Park Pobyedy which looks at all a good idea is the 1992 alignment. I can only hope they change their minds back to this sensible plan instead of doing a Hylan effort and spending huge amounts of money in making an existing line useless.
Bergen won't be done until 2005 at the earliest, so there is no way they could use both the express and local tracks before then. In addition, I've heard that many of the switches at Church are original, haven't been used in decades, and are in condition unknown. Track work may be required.
So what does this mean?
1) They have decided they want to do express when they can, but are annoucing it now to derail the Brookfield plan.
2) They have decided to do express when the bridge opens, by battery-running the express past Bergen, Carrol and Smith-Ninth and switching at the 4th Avenue interlocking, to get "full" service restored to Brooklyn once and for all ASAP.
They don't have the cars to run both the F and V to Coney Island, so something has to turn at Church. Maybe Church was found to be in good shape with the G turning on weekends lately.
I had assumed the G and V would turn at Church. Then again, there are more riders north of Church and more trains on the F, so maybe it makes sense to turn the F and extend the V.
Judging from the draft MB plan, NYCT has a new theory of naming simplicity, namely that the part-time service has a unique name, and goes away when not in use. Thus the Brighton express becomes the B. If you see a B, it's an express. No wondering, is this a D express or a D local?
Similarly, the Culver express becomes the V. If you see a V in Brooklyn or heading there, it's an express. This is simpler than wondering (say, at 7 PM), is this a rush hour F that's an express, or a non-rush F that's a local?
It seems unlikely that they'd run 25 tph to Coney Island. So some Vs and/or Fs are still likely to turn at 2nd Ave or Church.
Now if they could only figure out a way to apply this theory to the 7.
So the question is this:
Extend the V to CI rush hours only, truncate the F to church (rush hours only)
-or-
Make the F the rush hour exp.
wayne
Well, they sure were maintaining it yesterday. Of about two dozen trains I saw at TS, every other train was local and stopped on track 1, and every other train was express and stopped on track 2, and all bulkhead signs were appropriate (i.e. (7) or <7>), and about 80% of the side signs matched, except one that was so screwed up you could not see anything in the sign curtain. If you have a sequence that doesn't fit this alternation (i.e. LCL, LCL, EXP instead of LCL, EXP, LCL), you could always pull the errant train past the platform at TS and send in another that is signed correctly (only 2 minutes behind), and the station at Main already has three tracks, which makes it even easier. The same of course holds true for Willets and 111th. So maintaining signange is feasible, or at least it seems so.
wayne
I didn't say it was true everywhere. It looks like what they're doing for new services, though. Admittedly, one draft proposal and one NY Post rumor don't exactly make a pattern yet.
There is another possibility, albeit unlikely: Elimination of the short-turning at 2nd Av. and at 57th/7th (of the Q). This means extension of Q trains to Hillside to replace half of the F trains.
So *IF* an express were to run on the lower level, then the (G) would *have* to turn at Church, but there would not be track capacity to turn another service there.
Now, if the (V) [fools! it *should* be the (C)!] were to run via the Culver, it would want to be the Express (keep it simple stupid), it can be express on the Culver even if the lower level were not in service yet... It would turn at Kings Highway... the only place it can be turned without going all the way into CI which is not needed and because this is designed to turn the center track NOT The local tracks.
Elias
The config at Church looks like the config at Continental. The local can go into one of 2 relay tracks. Then it turns and heads for the inbound local track. If the track maps (brooklyn3 and queens3) on this site are accurate, there is no long period of reverse running.
The other problem is cars, ie. running half empty ones when there aren't enough to go around. It is possible, however, than an F express would draw in passengers, abeit from other subway lines.
This gets back (obliquely) to the toll issue, and (also obliquely) to the cars in Prospect Park issue. During the 1960s and 1970s, when the city and the subway went to hell, many of the traditional, multi-generation inhabitants of Brooklyn -- if they didn't leave the city entirely -- retreated to a subway free lifestyle in subway free neighborhoods. These are folks who drive everywhere, seldom go to public parks, don't send their children to public schools (unless they are special deal schools), etc. They created a life insulated from the decline of public services.
These are the folks who are objecting to the bridge tolls, and who drive their car thru the park. Many live down in Community Board 18 -- Marine Park, Flatlands, Mill Basin, etc. The question is, if it were somehow made easier to park near subway stations, could a fully open Manny B and Culver Express lure these folks back to the subway?
Honorable mention goes to the private garage underneath the shopping mall on Atlantic Ave next to the Flatbush Ave LIRR terminal. It's clean and pretty uncrowded considering the location.
I think in that sense, the subway is a victim of its own success. Real estate values in most areas near subway stations are too high to permit economical building of a parking garage.
NYCT could create it's own parking lots near stations.
Because people are willing to pay $25 per day to park there.
NYCT could create it's own parking lots near stations.
True. but could they do it for a price that people are willing to pay? Certainly, people aren't willing to pay $25 to park out in the fringes of the city. They are willing to pay something, though. For whatever reason, no one (either private or public) has been willing to take the gamble and build garages near outlying subway stations on any kind of large scale basis.
There's actually easy parking to a few of their stations. Great Kills and New Dorp have muni lots nearby - and if I recall correctly - they sell monthly permits. There's Stapleton, where they pulled the meters out a while back because they collected less than it cost to maintain them.
Of course, there are the three Xbus lots too - SI Mall, Richmond Avenue and Arthur Kill Road, and Fr. Cap and Sand Lane.
And yes, I realize that real estate in these areas is much cheaper than in Manhattan or many parts of Brooklyn!
Chip
The Post article suggests that this is a way to get people to "ride the V train." What? How is running the V to Coney Island going to increase ridership significantly at the Queens end?
Running F and V to Coney would require turning the G at Church to avoid fouling the express on the viaduct, as the last time the Culver Express ran in the '70s--more added mileage.
I don't see that the swicthes at Church Ave. would be a problem. Unless the tracks were inactivated I would assume regular inspection and maintenance would at least keep them operable.
It may not, but that's OK. Extending the V will offer Brooklyn residents better service (which restores what they had pre-Manny B closing), and will bring more Manhattan ridership to the V.
The V is already doing a good enough job taking pressure off the express lines in Queens. It is possible that riders west of Jackson Heights, who depend on a local anyway, will take the V in higher numbers because of the extended Brooklyn service (if that's where they are going). Also, a ride on the V may be seen as more convenient by some people than transferring to the G.
Do you see a downside in extending new Sixth Av service to Brooklyn?
Not at all, if it's really happening. I just have my doubts it will happen, given the past TA policy. It's also weird to institute more 6th Avenue service to southern Brooklyn AFTER Manny B reopens. It would have made more sense when the switch to Broadway took place, and all 6th Avenue service was taken off the Bridge.
If tis is really going to happen, I hope it's not a new service set up to fail, like the NX.
The TA wants to bolster service to Brooklyn by running the V on the now-unused express tracks alongside the F train route, down the Culver line to the Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue station, sources said.
Everything else is a surmise. The above quote implies to me that the V and the F will both run to Coney Island, but the V will be the Broklyn Express and might even be express on the elevated. It would also be a good guess that the G would have to extend to Church Avenue (for switching reasons), but the article says nothing of this.
So far The Post article is the only source I know of for what might be a rumor or wishful thinking.
It may not be that much extra money.
The Gs would have to be extended, that's true. But 14 F tph to CI might be replaced by 8 or 9 tph to Church and 8 or 9 tph to CI, which wouldn't really cost much more. Almost certainly some of the current 25 tph on the 6th Ave local would still turn at 2nd Ave.
You can't argue that the turnaround at 2nd Avenue is a good service plan for anyone. Even if you are a die-hard V train passenger at 2nd Avenue, you still have to play the which-platform-is-the-next-V-train game, since both "uptown" and "downtown" terminal tracks are used to turn the V, and there is no island platform in-between.
Although I would love to see the Smith St./9th St./Prospect Park IND express tracks used, running the V local between Jay and Church would not bother me too much, since it would stop at 7th Avenue either way. I've been doing this commute for over a year. Comparing the amount of passengers using York, Bergen, Carroll, Smith & 9th, and 4th (nobody uses York; a good handful get off at Bergen and Carroll, but not as many combined as get off at 7th Av.; a few dribble out at Smith/9th for buses to Red Hook; a bit more disembark at 4th Av. for the transfer down the stairs to the subway) to the amount who use 7th Avenue (a hoard so vast that there is a backup at the stairs at the 7th Av. end during the afternoon rush) leads me to believe that 7th Av. could use the extra V service either way.
1) I believe that no matter what happens, the Culver Express should skip Bergen St, even though the platforms are there. Now I WAS (not I am) thinking about having this express skip 7th Ave as well. Why? Because then the express gets loaded with most of the line from 7th Ave down, figuring anyone who gets a local at Ft. Hamilton and 15th will transfer at 7th for the express. So the local would go into Manhattan only with customers from 4th Ave, Carroll, and up, quiet unbalanced. I think the idea is to have trains enter Manhattan as balanced as possible in ridership. If you "zoned" the Culver line, such that the express took responsibility from Church Ave and south, and the local took Ft. Hamilton and north, it would be more balanced. (I could be wrong.)
2) Considering the same thing with the QB line. If you made Woodhaven an express station, you would reduce overcrowding there by giving more service, but then the express would have a great burden, as it would be taking on more people. I have considered the idea of having the E skip Roosevelt during the rush hour, such that anyone going to Lex 53rd and 5th/53rd would have to stay on the V if they are from 67th Ave to Roosevelt Ave inclusive. In this case, the E would only take responsibility for Forest Hills and east, and the V would take Forest Hills and west, with Queens Plz and Ely being shared.
The concept of express trains skipping express stops has been used in the past. Based on the old BMT service guides, from the 20s(?), rush hour Sea Beach trains, at least, used to skip 36th Street on 4th Avenue.
The article said that the V would run express on the Culver line -- that's the section of the line between Church and Stillwell. It doesn't mention the IND section between Bergen and Church. Until the interlocking is repaired, my guess is that all service there will run local.
Yes there is - Astoria Blvd.
Lots of people refer to the whole thing as the Culver Line. At NYCT, sometimes the original BMT section is called the Culver Line and the IND section the Prospect Park line, sometimes the whole thing is called the Culver. For "eight grade reading" purposes, I'd be lots of folks don't know it as anything other than the F.
Despite the Bergin interlocking problem, the 4th Avenue interlocking could be used to bypass 4th Avenue, MY STOP and Fort Hamilton if the G relay were moved to Church. The "express" could battery-run by Bergin, Carroll and Smith-9th. I'm not sure they'll do that. As I said, substantial completion on the Bergin Street project isn't scheduled until October '05.
I wonder if they will try turning both the F and V at CI, or turn one of them at Kings Highway. I also wonder if they will have enough equipment.
I figure the G will have to turn at Church Avenue.
BTW, Transit and Weather Together this coming Monday morning and afternoon.
The closest I came to mentioning SubTalk was about seven or eight years ago when the traffic reporter was Ray Rossi, who's also a big subway fan. He asked me what I did during my midday break, and I told him I rode a Slant 40 across the Manny B, passing all the gridlocked traffic and soaking in all the good weather.
Hey don't knock it, four of the seven telephones at my residence
are rotary and five are western electric. THEY WORK, so who needs
disposables, besides "pampers". >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Now, with a calling card, we have to press 34 buttons to make one long distance call.
Some things have not gotten better with time.
Some things have not gotten better with time.
Nobody forces you to use a calling card, it takes only 4 extra digits to dial long distance. Long distance calls are also much cheaper. Here, things HAVE improved with time with no disadvantage whatsoever.
I know about 10-10-321 and the others, but then you have extra digtits too, and I still have a better rate.
You have to admit that it was easier to dial O, and let her do it for you.
What does this have to do with long distance calling? If you use a calling card to pay for long distance calls from elsewhere, that's a feature that didn't exist in the old days and cannot be compared to anything.
You have to admit that it was easier to dial O, and let her do it for you.
You can do that now if you want. It'll probably costs you cheaper than it did to make long distance calls in the old days.
You have to admit that it was easier to dial O, and let her do it for you.
I'm so ashamed, no one ever does that!
Of course we didn't have that problem either when you gave a note to a neighborhood kid with your message and instructions for the Western Union operator at the local train station.
Tom
Unless the kid was run over by an errant horse.
Purchased a prepay cellular, with the hopes of eliminating the landline at that residence. Basic cost is $22 plus just for the dial tone. Guess What, 800' above the valley floor and my CELL says NO SERVICE available. Not every location on the main 48 is served and this is only 98 miles from the Big Apple, not the boondocks. Technology is both good and bad, dependent on where.
And by the way, my carrier is not some Johnny Come Lately upstart,it's the big V. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Purchased a prepay cellular, with the hopes of eliminating the landline at that residence. Basic cost is $22 plus just for the dial tone. Guess What, 800' above the valley floor and my CELL says NO SERVICE available. Not every location on the main 48 is served and this is only 98 miles from the Big Apple, not the boondocks. Technology is both good and bad, dependent on where.
And by the way, my carrier is not some Johnny Come Lately upstart, it's the big V. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Our local phone company is a subsidiary of the big V, but the best rate we can get without a monthly charge is .16 cents a minute.
We had a cheap cell phone some years ago to keep in touch during a critical illness in the family. We got what we paid for, a really cheap phone, with terrible reception. I've been half afraid to try another one, and have found that I really don't need one.
I am really having problems here since the crash. I may need a doctor for this iMac.
Read the fine print. I'll bet there's a connection charge in there someplace as well that wipes out a lot of your savings, especially on calls under ten minutes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our local phone company is a subsidiary of the big V, but the best rate we can get without a monthly charge is .16 cents a minute.
We had a cheap cell phone some years ago to keep in touch during a critical illness in the family. We got what we paid for, a really cheap phone, with terrible reception. I've been half afraid to try another one, and have found that I really don't need one.
I am really having problems here since the crash. I may need a doctor for this iMac.
Our local phone company is a subsidiary of the big V, but the best rate we can get without a monthly charge is .16 cents a minute.
We had a cheap cell phone some years ago to keep in touch during a critical illness in the family. We got what we paid for, a really cheap phone, with terrible reception. I've been half afraid to try another one, and have found that I really don't need one.
I am really having problems here since the crash. I may need a doctor for this iMac.
You mean they're paying you to make the long distance calls? AT&T charges 10¢/minute with no plan fees... 9¢/minute if you use online billing... and that's anywhere in the US. And I'm sure that there are other carriers with similar plans as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As for the card Karl B, gets for 2.9 per minute, how many minutes must be
purchased for that rate? Is there a time limit on it's usage?
7.9 on a per call basis without a plan fee is good enought for me.
The big V, charges a dime, if I forget to dial my ten-ten access.
And then comes the Universal Service Charge.
As for the cell phone, have no problem with reception with the
unit from Radio Shack\Big V. Just have to remember to use my
minutes in the 60 days on the re-up card or get a new one prior to
expiration date for a rollover.
My cell doesn't self-dial from Branford [East Haven, CT], yet from
New Haven West it will. In Maine, last weekend, had to pay
roaming charges to place call[s]. Cut my weekend minutes in half.
Still I must admit, I like it. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Yeah, so that they could get even MORE money.
BTW, what the hell is a rotary telephone :)
Instead of having pushbuttons, a rotary phone has a round dial with ten holes corresponding to each digit from 1 to 0 (not 10). There were no holes for "pound" (#) or "star" (*). The holes were labeled the same way as the buttons are today. You'd put your finger in the proper hole and rotate the dial clockwise until you reach a curved metal hook called a stop, then release the dial. Repeat until you've "dialed" the number you are calling.
While a touch-tone phone uses tone dialing, a rotary phone used the older pulse dialing method. The dial had a set of ten electrical contacts, and each digit on the dial represented the number of pulses generated when that digit was dialed. Dialing zero generated ten pulses, not none.
Area codes originally had to have the first digit as anywhere from 2-9, the second digit had to be 0 or 1 and the last digit could be anything. Codes with the same second and third digit were reserved for special uses.
The easiest to dial first digit:2Easiest second digit:1Easiest third digit (cannot be 1):2
This is not a coincidence. The easiest to dial code was assigned to the largest city in the country.
And to show how things really have changed, 4th simplest were 313, 214 and 412. 313 is Detroit.
I've gotten to know a number of area codes, but don't recognize 214 or 412. At last count, 14 states still have single area codes.
Oops, typo on my part.
I've gotten to know a number of area codes, but don't recognize 214 or 412.
Neither do I. I had to look it up. 214 is Dallas, 412 is Pittsburgh.
Click here Let it load (2.5m)
If you remember "Green Acres" it'd be like Lisa plugging in a 2, a 4 and a 6. Hootersville would go dark.
Isn't that what caused the blackout?
8-) ~ Sparky
Didn't Ma Bell used to require dialing numbers like this?
KL5-1212
How did THAT work?
ABC = 2
DEF = 3
GHI = 4
JKL = 5
MNO = 6
PRS = 7
TUV = 8
WXY = 9
Q and Z were not used (nowadays, when a telephone touch pad is used to correlate letters and numbers, Q = 7 and Z = 9). 0 and 1 did not have corresponding letters, and of course * and # weren't on the phones (even the early touch tone phones didn't have them).
The purpose of the letters was to facilitate exchange identification in the days when many calls, especially long distance ones, went through an operator: for example, my parents' phone number when I was growing up was GLobe 2-7648, while my grandparents' number was STerling 7-0701 and our immediate neighbor's was GRover 1-7489. The same numbers might be represented by different mnemonics in different places; while we had GLobe 2 and GLobe 4 where I grew up, we had friends in Chicago whose number was ILlinois 2-6672 - 452 prefix, just like ours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a result, we had foamer glass to look out, you didn't NEED announcements to know which train you were on or where it was going or what stop you were at or which was next, station signs that were innacurate were barely noticed because people would LOOK at the map and pay attention. Today, we have systems designed to "idiot-proof" our lives.
"Technology today is a race between engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof systems, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
Got a 302. (First WE deskset to have the network & ringer in the base.) Took it off the dump in Gitmo in 1972, shipped it home and rebuilt it. Still has cloth handset and line cords. Works like a champ!!
Only problem - dialing 10 digits on a 302 dial is S-L-O-W. Maryland's had 10 digit dialing for so long I can't really remember not doing it.
I do remember dialing 6 digits to make a local call. Peter Witts ran on the 19 line half a block away. Eisenhower was just sworn in as President, color TV was a dream of our future. Hetwork news was 15 minutes, local news a half hour. Baltimore had three newspapers, two put out a morning and two evening editions. Pay phones cost 5 cents, so did Cokes from a vending machine.
"Take me back, to that world gone away."
BTW, did you ever notice in the original Pelham 1-2-3 that the Mayor's phone does exactly that while he's watching The Newlywed Game with Tom Kennedy instead of Bob Eubanks as emcee? The pitches were C#-A.
Dang! Just went and queued it up and ding dong on the phone ... never caught that before. You're TRULY in need of help, son. Heh
BTW, how do you refer to Lindsay? I often think of the reference to Linseed on the Batman TV series. Not to mention Gov. Stonefellow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you define an internet line? I have one telephone line that I use for voice, fax, and internet. When I had multiple lines they were in rotation with the last ones being used for fax and internet.
Tom
A couple of years ago, an increase in such traffic was blamed for Seattle-area 911 callers getting busy signals.
Actually, the number of "second lines" in residences has been declining steadily for the past two years or more, as broadband (cable and DSL) takes an increasing share of the internet traffic. The problem, in a sense, is competition; numbers are allocated to phone companies in blocks, resulting in a larger percentage of allocated but unused numbers than was the case during the monopoly years. Cell phones and dedicated data lines (which, by the way, all have assigned numbers too, even if those numbers aren't obvious to the end user) represent the biggest growth area. ATM and credit card authorization lines, many of which are still "twisted pair" connections, also are a significant factor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Verizon used the nearly 50% retrenchment of the number of lines they had a few years ago as the excuse for MASSIVE layoffs. Much like the peak electrical demands that summoned the construction of new generators, telco plant demand has DIED ... in fact, on the electrical side, overcapacity exists even though some plants have shut down. Now that the "internet industry" has died under our Shrub, we have WAY too much infrastructure for the demand nowadays and it's been apparent in forecasts that it's going to STAY that way for a while. Nobody's building doowahdiddy. :(
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
'Bricks' were easy to fix with their discrete components. All ended with MX series handhelds with four layer mylar PCBs. Just shipped back my VX-5RS to Yaesu/Vertex for warranty service....don't stand a chance with this SMT stuff anymore.
Anyone remember 'Regency?' CI Peter WB2SGT Extra Class
When the TA first installed 'Portamobile' units, communications between trainsets and control was pretty poor, especially below ground. Passive repeaters did not fair well and all comm was simplex.
Introduction of 'Coatenna' at great expense made improvements coupled with the unity gain 'U-bars' mounted vertically on the face of the Redbird cabs.
It's amazing that R142 radios work at all. Telephonics radio chassis is behind the T/Os head and coupled into the audio communications system. Its antenna is in a metal box hidden in the bulkhead of #2 end of every A car....more than fifty feet of coax is used. Not at all OT....it's Transit!!!!!!! CI Peter
Fortunately, I learned by observing the RCI's and rarely had to call much in. The walk to the tower worked MUCH better. :)
I wonder how many receiver and tranmitter sites there are, and how the voting scheme is set up. Especially what I'd like to understand is if a signal captures a receiver somewhere in the system, which transmitters is it redirected to? Say, if a HT on a train captures a receiver near CIY, is that signal re-tranmitted throughout the entire southern division, just from CIY or some combination of sites?
What I seem to hear when I listen is the one desired signal hetrodyning with what sounds like at least one unmodulated carrier from another site. Is it just that the transmitters aren't synched or is there something I'm not getting?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Oh, don't get me going on Yaesu Garbage. My FT-90's CPU decided to go pointy-ends up last week so it's off to get the smoke put back into it for the third time. I wish I had room in the car for two Motorola mobile radios, one VHF, one UHF. Syntors maybe. But nope, just room for a micro-mini-dual-band's control head! Gah! What I wouldn't do for oodles of under-dash-space!
Anyone remember 'Regency?' CI Peter WB2SGT Extra Class
I despised them almost as much as I do Yaesu. Mostly I used their old scanners (M400, M100 and a couple of hand-helds), but I also had two VHF mobiles. Those damnable membrane keyboards were the first thing to give me the willies, faulty PA modules, front ends in name only, etc. For real communications, nothing beats the Bat Wings. Well, the B-K portables that crews use are actually pretty nice, too.
I'm going to have about $1000 to spend on VHF and UHF at Dayton next month (maybe a hundred more if my next Trains and Railroad/Railfan magazine ads do OK) and I'm looking to get a mobile and at least one HT. Probably going to replace that POS Yaesu FT-90R(otten) with a kenwood G707, and pick up a pair of Motorola HTs for when it really counts to have a working radio. Dunno which models yet, but JT-1000's are high on my priority list. Anything field-programmable and with an alpha-display is high on my list.
Incidentally, I have an MT-1000 that I use to receive the TA, and many times, when standing at the storm door, the Bendix-King's in the cab next to me pick up calls strongly that don't--or barely--break squelch on my MT.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
W2IRT (also extra-class)
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
1) Door Stop.
2) Hood Prop.
3) Bashing the heads of patients who want to go fighting instead of quietly. "Motorolarize 'em!" Just kidding. ;-)
A new model was field tested just before 9/11 but it flunked and so we've had the old reliable to this day. With the Doomsday budget 'round the corner, I daresay upgrades to our portables are a long way off. But those bricks are truly indestructible. A crew recently backed over one with a bus and it still worked. Didn't even crack the boards...
I'm really confused about the EMS service's radio system as well. I know the UHF 482 conventional repeater system is very active, but I also see listings for a Motorola trunked system which, from monitoring on and off, seems to have little (but some) activity. Is all the 911 EMS dispatching handled on the conventional repeaters now?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Gaaaah! They need new a new radio system like they need a hole in the head. Maybe new radios, sure, but not new infrastructure. Right now you have some if the FD's new portables, the PD system and the EMS guys actually able to interoperate. It's still pretty new, but all three can talk to each other now. Time to get all the FD up to 480 or so, non-digital and have real scene interoperability on conventional repeaters.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
True "interoperability" means EMS, NYPD, FDNY, NYCTA, MTA, PATH, NYSP, and TBTA all being able to get in touch with one another. This extends to the KDT's in the individual units being compatible, too. (That is, all KDT's can send and recieve messages, regardless of which agency they're on. KDT's have been in EMS units since 1990, and NYPD units since around '92 or so...)
It would be nice if, on the scene of a "Man under", I could tune into the TA and hear on my portable if the train was secure, instead of shouting it across the train...
It's just starting now. The new FD fireground radios that are being distributed to the officers are equipped with EMS TAC-2...but no NYPD interop frequencies that I can see yet. I'm willing to bet that FDNY's dispatch system will go up to UHF in the next 5-10 years, but the critical situation would be getting proper use of the borough interop frequencies set aside on the NYPD system, along with a few tacticals.
As far as I'm concerned, every incident command officer for PD, FD and EMS, at the very least, should be able to talk to one and other. It also doesn't help that OEM is on the DoITT trunking system and everybody and their brother uses Nextel. TA should be moved to UHF as soon as new equipment can be deployed, TBTA and TA police should also be able to participate.
I agree with you with regard to "Man Under" situations. I'm extremely active on the scanners, and when I hear a 12-9 called, it's a pain in the tuchas to monitor. PD Zone, SOD, TA cops, EMS dispatch, EMS tactical/CW, Transit road channel...It's a Mongolian Cluster f*** of biblical proportions. Last Sunday afternoon's 12-9 at Roosevelt was a prime example. I've heard 4 and 5-alarm fires with multiple patients and hazmat conditions communicate more smoothly.
I'm no fan of trunking, and with the rush of so many other agencies to trunked systems in the 800 and 900 MHz range, there has to be enough RF real estate around 480 to equip the TA, FD dispatch and a few other agencies in such a way as everybody can hear everybody else.
Failing that, bite the bullet, commit a zillion dollars to migrate every emergency agency to a new ANALOG trunking system. Better still, an analogue trunking system in the UHF or even VHF range.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
The fun begins when all the different agencies start to converge on the scene. Now there's FDNY Rescue and ESU, Transit cops, TA brass, street cops, and me and my partner (the only two from EMS and we're ultimately responsible for the patient). The TA wants the patient out rapidly so it can open the line again. The FDNY and ESU personnel both want to make the rescue. The cops want to ascertain if the patient fell or was pushed. My partner and I want to treat and transport the patient, and as the medical authority on the scene, we have to watch out for what everybody is doing, so the patient doesn't get worse and no new patients are created. Ok so far?
In addition to all this, as I noted above, everybody's on a different channel. It's dark, it's noisy, the adrenaline is pumping, and we're (usually) underground. If we had true interoperability, there'd be a multi-agency talkaround channel for dramatic calls like 12-9s. Everybody's different (and sometimes conflicting) interests could all be addressed. Operations issues, like "is the power off?" (which on the new cars, looking at the main lights inside the car won't tell you), or "Are the hand brakes set?" could be broadcast at once to all, instead of being shouted verbally as it is today.
That's how it is for the responders...and please don't ask me to tell you what the TA says when I say we need the train split in order to get to the patient...but anyway I hope this post was enlightening...
One interm answer (you may be doing it already, ??) is to give you a police radio on the rig and have the NYPD dispatcher assign you a call sign. FDNY will dispatch you, but you could also talk on the NYPD frequency and by yourn call sign, officers would know you're EMS.
At the University of Miami 18 years ago, we had a similar system. The University First Aid Squad (BLS) had a public safety radio for special events. When we used it, we became Unit 211 on the University police dispatch system (part of Coral Gables PD, actually). The dispatch system used the "Q" code system ("QSL" etc.)
If you're responding to an elevated station, say 125 Street on the 1/9 IRT, does that work a little better? I take it the precincts have to relay your call to Transit Bureau?
It *is* a FEDERAL CHANNEL, and EVERYBODY HAS ACCESS to it!
If I go on a mutual aid call in South Dakota or in Montana, we all still have access to the mutual aid channel. Police, Fire, EMS, INS, Guard, Fish and Game: doesn't matter. They all got it. Like I said, it *is* a FEDERAL allocation, so if your agencies are not using it, it is your own darn fault!
Of course, North Dakota does have it a little easier: we have *State Radio* with repeaters state-wide (Headquarters is in a deep bunker on the grounds of the Frane Barracks). They can patch me through to an ambulance if FARGO, if that is what I want!
Of course you probably have more responders in your area than we have *people* in the whole state, but that too is your problem.
At least we have more *cows* than you have! Moo.
Elias
The jobbies with the rubber duckie antenna on top were actually pretty good. We didn't HAVE those. :)
I couldn't tell where the dial or keypad was, though. I looked all over for it, and felt for a removable panel. Didn;t find one.
I assume the cranking function no longer applies. If I recall right, that was used to generate an electric current that broke polarity (so you could place a call) - and that's not relevant today, anymore.
There are three means of communication at the Seashore Trolley Museum,
Kennenbunkport, Maine. Outside telephone lines to store, office
and shop. Two way radios and Hand-Crank Telephones to various
locations on the property and they are functional. Long and short
rings to assigned locations. If a visitor picks up the phone at
Highwood Exibit Carhouse, many get a surprise, when there is an ongoing
conversation between other locations. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I heard one of the maintenance people say once that that switchboard was a pain to keep up because they couldn't get parts for it. The park bought it used in 1956.
I haven't been to the park since 1989, so I don't know if they still have that switchboard or not.
Home Savings was a unit of HF Ahmanson and Co., and now exists as Washington Mutual Savings Bank.
Chances are most of the ladies I knew who worked in the cashier's office are probably deceased by now.
Ahmanson was a great organization. I had my first checking account in Los Angeles at the Ahmanson Bank. The checking accounts were kept under the customer's names without account numbers, which was interesting when listing bank accounts on credit applications. As the banking system became computerized, federal regulations required that they assign account numbers. Home Savings is also fondly remembered, but it was not just renamed. Washington Mutual, a pre-existing organization, swallowed them up and the friendliness and ambiance is no longer there.
Tom
The best part was you left the train you brought in on the station track for the night so it meant the crew didn't have to put the train on "the siding".
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
I don't know what you mean by "broke polarity." It cranked a generator in the ringing circuit which would ring a bell at "central" to get the operator's attention. The operator placed the call and connected you. If your call was to someone on the same party line, you had to hang up while the operator rang that person's phone, then pick up again when it stopped ringing.
Tom
But air conditioning is STILL a right not a privilege. I'm a SELECTIVE luddite.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Are they ever going to outlaw two people in the same place at the same time in public? Too annoying, everyone talking on the train and in the street. They used to wait till they got home to talk to someone else in person.
Cell phone users in public would be fine if they used the same loudness of voice as people talking to each other in person. The trouble is, most of them shout into their cell phone in order to be heard. They are far more disruptive than people having an in-person conversation.
John
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I suppose geese would knock on your cab door to ask if this train was stopping at the next station when you were at the handles.
But the "customers" figured you had all the time in the world to be chatted up. Did get annoying at times, but you had to TRY to help them out. All part of the fun in playing "beat the clock."
I'll bet you chatted up a storm as a conductor.:)
I remember seeing prewar D trains as they raced past 81st St. and in most cases I could hear the gears. IIRC you only hear the gears when power is applied, right?
avid
Probably not many extra cars. If it's 8 tph to Church and 8 to CI replacing 14 to CI, it's a wash. If it's 10 and 10, it's still not huge. It's not going to be 12 and 12; that would just be too many trains.
Turning the (G) at Church makes sense.
Keeping the (F) as it is makes sense, no point confusing the geese.
Running the (V) as a new express service between Church and Kings Highway makes sense... it is a new service providing a part time extra. When the lower level express routing becomes available, the (V) can be shifted to it.
NOW I'd send the (V) to Chambers, and bring the (C) to Kings Highway because it 1) give 6th Avenue access to Downtown; and 2) gives Culverites the opportunity for service to either 6th or 8th Avenues.
Elias
I couldn't disagree more. F service is more than adequate SOUTH of Church Ave (elevated portion). Extra V service is unwarranted.
Nothing you knew survived Reagan though, nothing. 'Cept for the Chez. All the bars changed hands numerous times. They even abandoned the railroad! It was fun trying to radio and TV with trains rumbling by, shaking the building. :)
By 1969--1973, the only direct public transportation to the big city was the bus of Adirondack Trailways. I would take it to the PA bus terminal, then either walk over to 6th or take a train at PA for a transfer at W. 4th. I would never get on an R4, though, as I hated them on my home line, so I probably never rode with you. But the R4s were gone by the end of '72, anyway.
Re-registered as a Democrat, and GOT A JOB with the STATE! No turning back. Heh. Seriously, New Paltz turned to qwap when Mayor John Vett died, and the MORONS that took control borrowed and spent the town into a disaster. My FELLOW republicans. Business as usual. Silly me, I wanted to END the nonsense they pulled. I understand why I lost.
VALUABLE lesson of politics ... the REPUBLICANS steal from the till take care of their contributors ... the DEMOCRATS at least SPREAD IT AROUND. Like I said, VALUABLE lesson. :(
I went back to visit the college in summer '83, or was it '84. The college seemed to be as nice as ever. But I did not tour the town. Too bad it went downhill.
As to Zoo Paltz, perfect example of a GOP county - didn't wanna spend doowahdiddydoo, cops and services chronically underfunded, and most of the tax money going to monuments for the politicos and nothing to show for it all. Up here, we have Rensselaer county, a perfect mirror image of identical decay and trough usage by the annointed. :(
How's that, they bored of higher education? The politicos benefitted from it as young people and now don't need it anymore? Don't they have kids or is it they now have enough money to send them to private universities?
I don't miss the Paturkey farm AT ALL.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We do... and it was a SHE - Michelle Robinson by name. She made the national news when she personally cut out the chapters dealing with reproduction in the new high school biology texts because they were "too explicit". After another parent sued, the school system was forced to purchase new textbooks, to the tune of about $20,000.
As far as I know, though, she didn't have any direct involvement in the cross-burning; suspects were identified but not prosecuted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least in my home area of North Carolina, that's more defined by how church-going you are. If you're an "ultra-fundamental" Christian or an "Easter Sunday" Southern Baptist (as opposed to a regular church-going Southern Baptist) then Harry Potter is a no-no - for the ultra-fundamentalists because they sincerely believe that witches and warlocks shouldn't be mentioned, and for the "Easter Sunday" crowd because they don't know enough about their religion to understand what it even stands for. It transcends all other boundaries - political, racial, or social. (And it transcends denominational boundaries as well, although the Baptists seem to be more upset about it than the Methodists... and there isn't much else in our neck of the woods.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about SCUD BEACH LINE?
Moo.
you fill in the blanks !
I'm sure Fred would approve :)
Vlad
but i thinks you did not get the idia of the privious post !
Besides - it's already the name of a station ;-)
A lot more on Sundays than the Brighton line needs 2 services on Saturdays.
And 57th and 6th is chopped liver.
Well, in those days Broadway had 4 services even on Sundays.
Let's take this one step further....The 4th Av. (Brooklyn) line needs 3 services on Saturdays a lot less than the Brighton line needs 2 services.
At this moment in time, the B is not on the West End, and the D is not on the Brighton. They haven't been in those places in nearly two years.
I submit that people would get equally confused by ANY change in service pattern, not that that's a valid reason to leave the service pattern the way it is once the bridge has all four tracks available again.
David
Agreed. Confusion is indeed quantitative in the amount of people confused and how deeply they are confused. My belief is that the TA's proposal is a lot more confusing, on both counts, than is necessary.
My alternative: Restore the B & D to what they were 2 years ago. But, have the B run 24/7 and extend it to 205th--Concourse nights and weekends (in lieu of the D, which would run 16/5 or thereabouts: yes, 2 CPW locals nights and weekends, instead of 1 local). That would confuse less people a whole lot less.
I'm gonna guess that the writer is from Brooklyn. What he's really saying is, "Don't change my service pattern; change it in the Bronx, instead." Objectively, what he's saying makes no sense.
Under the MTA's proposal, the D and the Q will both operate 24/7, and they will both have the same northern and southern terminals at all times. This is simpler than having to explain that the B replaces the D in Manhattan and the Bronx on weekends and late nights. The D has had the same Manhattan/Bronx service pattern since 1940. Its Brooklyn service pattern has changed a number of times since then, so it can change again.
Also, the writer hasn't explained what would happen on the Brighton Line when the D doesn't operate. If it's replaced by the Q on weekends and late nights, then that isn't the 2-years-ago service pattern that he says he wants, so what is solved by this proposal?
Sorry to disappoint, I'm not from Brooklyn. In fact, I'm an expatriate American. That does not necessarily mean, though, that my idea should be dismissed out of hand because of where I live. Now for my reasoning:
First, according to the TA's proposal, the B and the D would be instituted in Brooklyn at many stations they never served: all of the West End stations and the Brighton Express Stations, from Atlantic Av. and Pacific Sts. southwards. What I proposed was, instead, introduce the B to only one station it never served before, 205th St. That's a lot less stations.
Second, a whole lot more people ride during the 16/5 period than ride at all other times. That's a whole lot less people that are to be affected according to my modification of the proposal, than according to the TA's current proposal.
"Also, the writer hasn't explained what would happen on the Brighton Line when the D doesn't operate. If it's replaced by the Q on weekends and late nights, then that isn't the 2-years-ago service pattern that he says he wants, so what is solved by this proposal?"
I did not state that I wanted full restoration of "the 2-years-ago service pattern." The TA's proposal has the Q operating on the Brighton 24/7. I did not suggest changing that.
4. Why is everybody accepting as gospel a story which doesn't even name a source or quote any MTA officials? MTA and Transit officially release a proposal by having an official spokeperson make an official announcement. That didn't happen in this case. V-e-r-r-r-r-y interesting, no?
It sounds to me as if the entire "V extension" idea was made up and "released" as a way to force Transit to implement it. Won't work.
David
Thanks, David. I tend to agree with that one. :-)
As I noted on BusTalk, all Transit employees (at least in administrative titles), myself included, have received an agency-wide memo regarding the release of non-public information. In addition, I've long cautioned against accepting non-official "information" that arises from crew-room rumors and some individuals' wish lists. When a proposal is deemed ready for public consumption, it is released through official channels. All else is speculation.
2.That could be subject to change.
3.That is pretty obvious if the V is chosen as the Culver express seeing it runs weekdays only.
I know I'm a lurker (ie, I mostly read rather than post), and this decreases the value of my post here, but this stuff about "I'm pissed/I'm leaving/I'm a moron/I'm a general piece of crap" is really starting to get a bit annoying.
Like others have said, this is a great board which is being diluted by certain people spouting utter fluff. Fluff being things such as replys to messages saying "I agree!" and "I like cheese!". By this I don't mean jokes by Selkirk in response to something dumb, or a scathing reply from SeaBeachFred about his line. I really don't know why these people (fluff people, not Kirk or Fred) would want to troll this board like it is slashdot, because it is a very focused board about a subject that (relatively) few people care about.
I know that this will not probably reach the people that are devaluing this board, but I would like to reach out and ask them to perhaps just moderate their level of flamage a bit.
I know this whole thing sounds stupid, it is just a small request. Thank you.
Bryan
Hopefully, the people who do this sort of thing will take your comments to heart and STOP IT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't have any fear of that!
Have fun!
TransitChuckG
Chuck Greene
Sorry for the typo. Typing too fast and not proofreading don't mix.
Thanks for good advice. I come here and hang out because there's some really great folks here (including some recipients of the perennial torch of righteousness) but mainly to have FUN. When it stops being FUN, then I'm leaving. Heh.
No, it does not. The value of your post lies in whatever you decide to put in it for the recipient, and the recipient's ability o read it. Your post can be incredibly valuable even if it is your very first one.
And I like your post.
Being a lurker is not bad at all. That's how I first started here a year ago. And you wrote an excellent post that makes a good point. I still lurk now and then, respond once in awhile, and sometimes create a game or two( I know my last one failed miserably).
As for Selkirk and SeaBeach4, they are both cool guys who I hope to meet at a SubTalk Gathering some time in the future. Some of their posts actually have me laughing in my sleep. My girlfriend is not too fond of this site. She says I spend too much time on it. Of course, I told her to "put a sock in it", and tried to teach her the ropes. Now she gets the idea of what SubTalk is about, but she said that she'll leave the railfanning to me. OUCH, that was a low blow, but at least she knows I'm not doing anything sleazy, thus she now supports me with SubTalk.
Hope to see some more posts from you.
Jimmy
my girlfriend's father works For the TA !
so im pretty happy !
That's funny, I thought her name was "Bing Bong"???
No, that's just the sound she makes when you push the right buttons :-)
(Sorry Nancy... couldn't resist... hope you and Kevin make it to Branford next Saturday...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry to say, won't be able to do it this month either - did even worse in sales than the prior month, hopefully things will turn around now that folks aren't embedded in their sofas watching CNN. Hopefully we'll get down yonder for the next event. :(
Jimmy
"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets
rid of Saddam Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with
food, medicine, supplies, housing, education - anything
that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally comes up with
a domestic agenda - and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring
that here if it works out." -- Jay Leno
"President Bush announced tonight that he believes in
democracy and that democracy can exist in Iraq. They can
have a strong economy, they can have a good health care
plan, and they can have a free and fair voting. Iraq? We can't
even get this in Florida." -- Jay Leno
If you go to a library to read books but not write any yourself does that make you a "lurker."
Please don't hesitate to post when you feel you should or when you see something that might be of interest to others.
There are 460 subway stations and over 6000 cars on the New York Transit System alone and no one of us has the time to cover them all.Its always good to hear news from the system.
And a new voice wouldn't hurt either.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
C is an open letter.
Just some quick statistics that a few people might find interesting:
- Roughly 135 threads show up in the past 24 hours (if a thread name was changed, I counted it under both names).
- About 115 threads involved transit in a real way, though some eventually got hijacked to other topics. Any given person is probably only interested in a fraction of those threads, of course.
- 12 threads were pure fluff, like the & thread and others.
I think this shows most posters stay on topic and remain polite most of the time. Let's just ignore those that don't.
It's unclear to me exactly what the creatures are doing, seeing as how I'm always on my C train leaving the station so I only get a glimpse of the actual setup. If you've seen it, let me know what it is. If you haven't, you might want to check it out the next time you're up there.
Here's two links for more information. One link is from the MTA Arts for Transit program, which does a station by station description of artwork. The other link has some pictures of other installations of the artist.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/aft/tour/14thtott2a.htm
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/7088/NYS/06.html">
BTW, does anyone notice how the tiling of the color bar, whether it be red or blue, staggers? I'm guessing it's from the slope of the station level.
1) Keep the general idea from the plan about where it will cross the river
2) Rather than sending it down the (G) line, have it run express down the Culver rather than extending the (V)
3) Do this idea during rush hour, but at all other times turn it at either Smith-9th Streets or in lower Manhattan
Would it be possible to do this? Also, would it be practical to do so?
The talk will be in the Mezzanine Lounge (3rd floor) of the MIT Student Center, 84 Massachusetts Ave., Cambridge, MA.
I am one Mr. Nagaraja's hosts while at MIT; if any SubTalker is interested in coming, please email me privately and I'll send further information as it becomes available.
Unfortunately, there is no way I’m going to be able to be in Cambridge a week Friday afternoon.
Will it be possible for the MIT-TV unit (I’m sure there is one) to record the lecture and make it more widely available?
Thanks,
John
Subway & Amtrak goes to Yankee Stadium, so why would folks want to a $200 HO freight tain with the Yankee logo all over it ?
Consist includes: Box, tank, flat w/trailer load, caboose & C Liner pulling it. Oh yes, it's an "Express" freight, "Next stop, Yankee Stadium". Well maybe the tank is full of beer ?
P.S. This is there version of the Yankee's 100th Anniversity (03 to 03).
Also, after 7:45 PM, until 8:43 PM weekdays all #5 trains go to Utica Ave. Last #5 train to Flatbush Ave is around 7:20 PM in Manhattan.
If traffic picks up much more on the Brooklyn IRT, they're going to have to discontinue 5s to Flatbush anyway. The only way to increase capacity is to send all east side trains to Utica or New Lots, and all west side trains to Flatbush or New Lots.
An alternate solution would be to make the New Lots/Flatbush terms different branches of the same line, like the south ends of the A which has two, and sometimes three, south terms.
Both East Side and West Side IRT riders always had one-seat rides to/from both Brooklyn term before the "2" and "3" exchange. Before the exchange, Flatbush (during rush hours) was served by the "3" (west side) and "4" (east side) Utica Avenue (during rush hours) was served by the "2" (west side) and "5" (east side).
The exchange wasn't just with the "2" and "3", it include all Brooklyn IRT's. I believe this was done to reduce the pile of confusion with the SEVERAL southern terminals of the "4" (Atlantic Ave; Utica Ave. and Flatbush Ave) and the "5" (Bowling Green; Atlantic Ave and Utica Ave) at that time.
The 2 and 5 kept the older cars hence based out of E180 and 239 St.
This is when the R12, 14, 15 and 17-22 cars went out of commission!!!
Tony
In addition to issues of yard access and the terminal capacity at Flatbush, there's also the issue of Rogers interlocking. Any train that runs between the East Side and Flatbush "eats up" one train's worth of capacity on the entire West Side express without actually serving the West Side express. The more service runs between the East Side and Flatbush, the less service can run through (e.g.) Times Square.
David
What restrictions on photography have been announced in the NY area since 9/11? All I know about is MTA bridges. There have been lots of Subtalk postings but no actual other policy changes that I know of.
I guess the antiRailfan policy is still on.
1) You'd be in jail
2) or dead
3) or you would have posted about it 50 times the second you got home
The thing that sucks about lying is that you have to remember what you wrote in every single post so you won't get caught. If you cut down on your posts, it'll be easier to remember what you are writing so that your lying is consistant and so we won't figure it out.
LMAOF !
You are Robert "Robby" Askew you have Contributed the station-by-station guides to and most of our photographs of the Atlanta MARTA system. Rob you are a college student in Atlanta, and some of your other interests are: traveling, racquetball, and break dancing !!!
LOL
genius check http://www.nycsubway.org/about/contrib.html
LOL !
Im same ol Vlad not John !
i knew john for about 3 mounts !
Heh heh, that misspelling could be really taken the wrong way!
LOL !!!!
Usually, most of your posts are annoying, but this one was extremely funny. Whenever im down, I'll read this post. What adds to it was Mark W's reply, and how true it was.
It could be possible that the guard actually did carry a burner, through his own private acquisitions, or with a permit, but it seems more likely that the "brake dust" make you think some things happened that didnt.
hahaha
i might " like " after a "simple chat"
lol
1. My father routinely works at CI yard. He's also worked at the 38th st, Westchester, 207th, E180th and Linden shops yards within 2 years. I asked him for clarification, and he stated that they do not carry guns.
2. If some guard pulled a gun on your ass, you'd be in jail. Instead, you're here with the same old crap. Further, Why would a guard pull a gun on you for holding a camera? It reminds me of the time when I walked up to a T/O's cab to ask if his train was going in a certain direction, and he pulled an AK-47 on me......
N_Slant_40 wrote:
you know what too bad we could not meet !
Here you go again. What did I tell you before?
i might " like " after a "simple chat"
3. I had a really hard time trying to understand what you were writing about here. I guess you were trying to say that you might "better understand me" if we had a "simple chat", of course implying violence again. You need to learn basic principles in language. You have the communication skills of high quality chipboard.
4. If we did meet, it wouldn't be on anything like fair terms. You would end up seriously hurt. Dont threaten me, stupid ass retard.
5. Another thing: You 'graduated' early, and went to Baruch?!? No one is going to graduate early (certainly not from stuyvesant, if you really did go there, which I doubt) and go to Baruch College (which is a good college, no doubt, but its no Columbia. The ONLY kid who graduated EARLY from Stuy recently {and it was because he had taken all the math that Stuyvesant and local colleges could supply} went to CalTech.) I think you're lying. I think you're lying about a lot of things. I doubt that you have a laptop with a wireless connection, which allows you to post so frequently. I doubt you have a girlfriend. I doubt you have sufficient amounts of brain cells remaining to make replies to posts longer than 2 sentences.
lol
6. And another thing: why the hell do you laugh when you've become 'angered', or you're threatening someone?
Get professional help. Not even mental help, Grammatical. Perhaps then you might be able to write an intelligent response.
fine kiddo ! im lying !
i havent gave a fuck about anyones opinion in years !
i doubt you have a persinal life exept this joint and school !
Another thing: You 'graduated' early, and went to Baruch?!? No one is going to graduate early (certainly not from stuyvesant, if you really did go there, which I doubt)
Stuy kids suppose to have better education since it the best hight school in the city .
i went to dewey and in dewey there is a policy that you could take extra classes if you want to graduate early .
you know what regarding
If we did meet, it wouldn't be on anything like fair terms. You would end up seriously hurt.
Hurt ?
i dont think so !
for a guy my size im pretty good shape and it would take a lot to get "the wind knocked out of me"
Just for fun :
for your info i'm a marine and the only reason i did not get drafted was becouse i'm in school !
Good night !
i get some sleep befor tommorow's Tour !
Stuy kids suppose to have better education since it the best hight school in the city .
i went to dewey and in dewey there is a policy that you could take extra classes if you want to graduate early .
I went to Bx Science and they allowed early graduation as well. So I can't see why Stuy wouldn't.
That's where I started paying attention to trains. Well on the long ride from Euclid to BPB (at the time, they changed it the year after I graduated), what else could I do but stand at the window? :)
fine kiddo ! im lying !
i havent gave a fuck about anyones opinion in years !
i doubt you have a persinal life exept this joint and school !
Another thing: You 'graduated' early, and went to Baruch?!? No one is going to graduate early (certainly not from stuyvesant, if you really did go there, which I doubt)
Stuy kids suppose to have better education since it the best hight school in the city .
i went to dewey and in dewey there is a policy that you could take extra classes if you want to graduate early .
you know what regarding
If we did meet, it wouldn't be on anything like fair terms. You would end up seriously hurt.
Hurt ?
i dont think so !
for a guy my size im pretty good shape and it would take a lot to get "the wind knocked out of me"
Just for fun :
for your info i'm a marine and the only reason i did not get drafted was becouse i'm in school !
Good night !
i get some sleep before tommorow's Tour !
Then you wouldnt respond so much, now would you?
i doubt you have a persinal life exept this joint and school !
Tell ya what cha do. Put my handle in a simple search, and look at how often I post, at any given time, compared to you.
Hurt ?
i dont think so !
for a guy my size im pretty good shape and it would take a lot to get "the wind knocked out of me"
I didnt say anything about knocking the wind out of you. If I needed to, I could get people who have fought in martial arts tournaments with Jackie Chan to jump you. Or people with knives. But it isnt that serious. I dont jump mentally disabled people.
Just for fun :
for your info i'm a marine and the only reason i did not get drafted was becouse i'm in school !
Either your a marine, or you aren't. You can't be a marine and get drafted.
Maybe you meant that you're in the reserves, and you didnt get called up, but you brain was too slow to realize how to make a good fabrication.
I could get people who have fought in martial arts tournaments with Jackie Chan to jump you. Or people with knives
that means A. i just dont got the balls to me or fight me .
B. you just plain stupid
Aw martial arts forgoten love !
i got a black belt in karate !
so fear i one of the things that i have no problem with !
and regarding my marine status you are right im in reserves .
B. you just plain stupid
You just said that you dont have the balls to jump yourself, and then called me stupid.......
I dont have a problem runnin up on you myself: I have ways and means to do that, but why, when you got people? You could make it fun. This is pointless. You're obviously gonna mess with the wrong person on the wrong day, and you're gonna be in the ICU or worse.
Aw martial arts forgoten love !
i got a black belt in karate !
so fear i one of the things that i have no problem with !
Obviously, you run your mouth a lot. Im referring to people who have 10th degree status in various different arts. Just shut up. You're an idiot. And dont threaten me.
P.S.- Trains routinely carry ads that say "LEARN ENGLISH!" Perhaps you should try one of those places.
You are just a kid with a big mouth and no balls !
try me !
Kinda sucks when you try to insult someone and end up a dumb@ss, no?
Half your posts here are insults to people, why bother posting?
Tony if I really wanted to insult you I would take tomorrow on the 207th yard tour and let get a peek at R160s !
Half your posts here are insults to people, why bother posting?
Correction genius only 8% were insults !
But I was curious as to whether that "bulletin" was an effect of orange or yellow and where fan photogs stood. As for me, I've got all the photos I need right here on Unca Dave's main site, although I'm always willing to take in something new as well. :)
Yeah, what means whenever you are out with a camera you need to proceed at a speed no faster than 30 frames per hour and prepared to stop short of next law enforcement officer.
Those of us outside NYC can proceed at 45 fpm for professionals and 40 fpm for amatures, prepared to stop shot of the second law enforcement officer.
Geez...I go semi-off-topic ONCE... :-p
David
Not that I permit such a restriction to stand in my way:
Photography is not a crime. anyone suggesting that it is from this point forward is a cowardly non-american in my book.
The only way anyone will get my camera or film from me is from my cold dead hands.
Photography is not a crime. the day it becomes one is the day the terrorists will have won.
USUALLY.
I see I'm not alone in liking the quickly disappearing smoking car!
But what irked me most at the time is that we weren't allowed to smoke in New Jersey, which was one of the most polluted states in the universe at the time - chemical factories, oil refineries, hog farms. Oh wait. I get it now - if we'd lit up, Jersey would have exploded. :)
It still is!
They're gone entirely over here now.
They're going fast over here too. Midland Mainline abolished the smoking carriage last year, Virgin Trains went and ordered new trains without one, and all the commuter-train style efforts haven't had them for ages. IINM, only GNER (the East Coast Main Line) still have that wonderful quiet smoky zone with no irritating small children that is forever carriage B.
whacky terbacky
LMAO!
I *miss* that speech.
I bet the scene at the NY State Line was amusing as everyone reached for their "terbacky"!
But yeah, only buses and mighty diesels are allowed to smoke now.
Like I said, ain't into buses. I still have that "caboose cabin taste" in my mouth after all these years riding the "route of the blue waters" ... :)
Now, now, you're showing your big city prejudices, where Albany is the big city for a change.
There are many towns in eastern New York that depend on Adirondack and Pine Hill Trailways as their only public transportation, unlike Albany which has that fancy railroad. Yes, they're overpriced, and have zoo-like conditions with students and weekenders on Friday and Sunday evenings. But they also run midday trips that serve a wide range of people who can't drive themselves for some reason. They also, at least until recently, delivered the newspapers to a lot of small towns.
I'm 99% sure Pine Hill Trailways bought much of Adirondack Trailways (not the NY to Albany run) and is still dog-free.
Didn't know what the deal was with the company since Cynthia Berardi (the former owner) died - saw the station in downtown Smallbany close and went to pick up a friend from the city last year and saw that it had all moved over to gray running mutt, asked, and they said that they owned it now at the ticket counter whilst waiting for the bus to roll in.
The college students (and a state subsidy for THAT purpose) is what kept the company afloat - most of the drivers and the company itself considered the locals to be a pain in the butt since it required that they get off the major highways and roll through towns they didn't WANT to as a result of the franchised routes they ran.
But don't mind me, I just don't LIKE long haul bus rides. If the train doesn't go there, I go by rollerskate. It was more bearable when you could smoke a butt in the back with a rear window open, I can't imagine being trapped in a bus for two hours or more without pulling off for a butt break.
"The fishermen used to like to tell the weekenders, 'Don't smoke or you'll set the bay on fire'"
This is true on both the Jersey and Brooklyn sides of New York Bay. ;-)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
www.nyrail.org
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
ither the server is getting updated or the server crashed !
John
This might help you track down what happened to the site.
The name servers for //www.nyrail.org don’t return an address, so it’s likely the site has been removed for some reason.
John
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
It seems to me that the TA was not putting any capital in improving or for day to day upkeep of it's 100% el lines. The 3rd Ave el was in sorry shape. In fact the TA seems to be looking for an excuse to discontinue it's el lines. If the R-39 (lightweight cars for the el lines) was approved at the time, the two el lines may be still running today.
Ta could have saved the shuttle but they didn't .
If the TA were a bit more savy in 1954, they would have abandoned the stretch then instead of nursing it along for another 21 years.
-- Ed Sachs
They could have, but he residents along the ROW would have howled that their subway service was eliminated. Politics may have kept the shuttle alive for 21 years.
Bill "Newkirk"
JV
Funny thing is that I would benefit directly by having that train around. Yet I'm arguing it's uselessness.
See! You should be arguing for extending it until it is useful...
JV
One reason the buses aren't full is because the riders are spread over various bus lines now that stop closer to their houses than one el would.
Jv
That could be because it's the bus ride from hell. For two years I traveled between Downtown Brookyn and Ridgewood, from Forest Ave to Jay Street (two blocks from the IND station). What did I take? I took the subway - the M to Essex Street, and the F to Jay Street, because that was easier than the free bus connection to the B54 at Myrtle-Broadway. Obviously I would have taken the Myrtle El if it existed at the time, and even though I was traveling between those two points, I was not included in the "not one of the most heavily crowded buses" passenger count, but would have been included on a "Myrtle El" passenger count. I'm sure I wasn't the only person traveling from Brooklyn to Manhattan, just to go back to Brooklyn again.
I wonder which line had higher ridership pre-1944: the Myrtle or the Crosstown? My bet's on the Myrtle.
Anyone have specifics on the R39? I'm assuming it would've had IRT dimensions to operate on both els. How would it have dealt with operation north of Broadway on the Myrtle? Or was the entire R39 idea a concept cancelled before getting specific?
The only thing I know about the R39s is from what I heard here. Supposedly they would have looked sort of like an IRT verion of the R38', stainless steal. I don;t know how they would have handled Central Ave to Metro Ave, but the old BMT el cars (which were basically IRT-like cars) used to have extended platforms attached under the doors, maybe the R39's would have had them also. I don't know how that would have held up in today's lawsuit society.
Can someone explain to me what the hell are we looking at here????
Damn Modified R44/46 Unit!
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Heh
Actually that is S.tate O.f the A.rt C.ars
try this url !
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html
hope this helps
Frank Hicks
Once again, I'm sorry, I'll try not to screw it up again.
- Branford vs. Shoreline
- Kingston vs. trolley museum of NY or what ever it's called
- Engine 39 folks vs. RxR museum of LI
- Engine 35 folks, well there official name is Friends of Engine 35
- The Point vs. CT Trolley Museum
- Naugy, Danbury, Williamantic, Putman, etc.
Correct. I rode in it on PATCO.
I have seen it move though...i assisted on a move clearing out that track...one of the cars was coupled to a Cambridge-Dorchester tunnel car. Interesting photo!
I've seen truck work in the Branford shop many times. We even have a wheel lath to turn down the flat spots, but it needs some cutters to replace some worn/missing ones.
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/SOAC/SOAC02.jpg
www.chicago-l.org also has a number of other photos of the SOAC cars, as well as some historical data. It says that both platforms at Dempster and one platform at Howard were cut down to allow the wider SOAC cars to negotiate them, and that motorized retractable platform extensions were added to allow normal-width CTA cars to continue using the platform (those extensions can be seen in the picture above, taken at Dempster).
Frank Hicks
Anyhow, the two cars were built as part of a consortium between the US Dept. of Transportation, Boeing and the St. Louis Car Co. (explains the R44/46 body styling). The idea behind the cars was similar to that of the PCC (President's Conference Committee) trolley cars that came about in the '40's: with the help of the government and rail car builders, a 'standard' subway car was attempted that could be used in different power-source modes (third rail, pantograph, under-running third rail). As well, the two cars had different interior configurations, whereby the 'A' unit featured an almost traditional subway car seating arrangement (ala the R-44) with the exception of the 'luxury' of carpeting (this was also originally implimented on some R-44's that ran on the 'F' line in the '70s). The 'B' car was setup like an interubran/commuter car (like the LIRR M-1s) where the seating was two abreast with high-back and vinyl-padded. There was also a pair of 'coffee/card tables' on either end of the car for added luxury. The car's were impractical for a city like New York, but for an entity like the LIRR or Metro-North, the cars could've been put into service (on second thought the SOAC cars lacked bathroom facilities, so long-distance travel was apparently NOT a consideration).
One day I expect to model these unique cars (gotta first get an R-44/46 HO set and then make the changes).
5 train is shuttle between Dyre and E. 180th st. NO 5 SERVICE SOUTH OF EAST 180TH ST.
NO C TRAIN SERVICE (entire route)
6 trains terminate at 125th st in both directions. 4 trains local in Manhattan (125th st to BB), and some 4 trains loop around Bowling Green. Limited #4 train service in Brooklyn (on top of the Manhattan bound #2,3, and 4 trains running express between Franklin and Atlantic)
Manhattan-bound R and W via. Bridge
E trains rerouted via F (days and evenings)
" " " " R (late nights, but see R and W Manny-B above)
L train shuttle bus in Brooklyn
Another hellish weekend on the NYC subway.
Robert
Robert
Hmmmm....I wonder if the MTA would think about ordering new 75' Cars but had 3 doors on each side like the IRT for more seating.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Only if a terrorist nerve gas attack decreases the population density by about 2/3rds.
Rohr (1000 Series)
Breda (2000, 3000, and 4000 Series)
CAF (5000 Series)
The WMATA cars have all been designed to look the same and the Rohrs and Bredas will be recieving the updated interiors in the very near future. It will be integrated onto the 2000s and 3000s as they go through their GOHs (some 2000s are already in rehab). I am not sure when the Rohrs and 4000s will get the new interiors.
The Rohr cars have more windscreens and seats than the Bredas and CAFs but the differences are minor. The 6000 Series cars which will arrive for the opening of the Blue Line to Largo will have the new interior colors but the interior layout will be very different than any other existing WMATA car.
Features of the 5000 series cars include the new interior colors, multiple computer systems to help troubleshoot problems and make train performance more reliable (and to delay their entry into service), a flashing light over the doors when they close, and an interior LED display to announce the next stop and which side the doors will open on (this too, does not work).
For more pictures, click here.
What many here probably don’t know is, when the decision on how to configure the CAF cars was made there was serious thoughts of building these cars with 4 door opening per side
John
Yes, even on the CAFs. I don’t recall where I read it.
In my opinion the original configuration of the Rohr car provide the best passenger comfort. I know there are some that may disagree. The thing I dislike about Bredas and CAF are the hand holds on the ceilings in the door area that encourages standing in the door ways.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/bronx/nyc-sub0417,0,6763927.column?coll=nyc-manheadlines-bronx
Adding sales tax to things like the subways, buses and so on was one of MANY low-flying objects during Division of the Budget diddling of the state books to find ways to cut, cajole and skewer, and sales tax hikes and adding sales tax to whole new categories of life (surgery?) were bouncing around for months, along with slapping the public with a BIG sales tax hike across the board. Certainly helps preserve those tax cuts for those who DON'T ride the subway. :(
Voila!
State DENIES talk of sales tax hike
I sit here in amazement watching one after another of the "rejected ideas" I heard about all winter lining up like Paturkeys at Fangsgiving. :(
This is bullshit. The MTA has tried to get rid of tokens for years and would have done so regardless of how their booth plan was received.
Tooken booth closing were opposed more by the straphangers campaign which spewed tons of false information out to the public.
Aske riders at stations where the booths are closed currently. You don't get many complaints. Teh only compaint at 34th street herald square for instance is that they needed more HEET's
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
I'd assume it wouldn't because people will most likely abuse it...
You really are the Voice Of Reason! LOL!
-Stef
If anything, it would work if a proper CCTV system was available to keep track of everything.
-Wild and Crazy S/A, And Loving It
It reminds me of a time a customer asked me if I would watch her bag while she went to the store. I told her to hurry because I couldn't watch it. If someone came along and grabbed it, I'd be watching someone walk away with it. She decided to leave it anyway and sure enought, I watched someone walk away with it.
Same thing with the CCTV system. Cops watch someone take over a gate that was opened for a carriage go thru, it will take a few minutes before they can get someone over there. Enough time for someone to make a few dollars before moving on to somewhere else.
Exactly
Good ol' TA.
The gate opens up automatically when a disabled person uses a special Autogate Metrocard.
The Autogate's main flaw is that it uses a dip style metrocard reader similar to the ones used on buses that make many of the slots become recepticals for garbage.
Autogates are a prime candidate for early deployment of smart cards with no dip to clog
You're telling me something I don't know?
I've seen numerous folks dip in their regular expecting the damn thing to open up, too bad they don't know what the Autogate is. Have you ever tried it?
-Stef
You read the flyer? Remember not everyone is as wise as you.
-Stef
People with baby carrages should use the main entrance. Another solution is to provider a call box to the 24 hour booth who could trigger the release the maintance gate.
The only problem at 34th street herald square east entrance is that there is not enough HEET's or exit only Iron Maidens when the booth is closed. I worked and went to shool at that station for nearly 4 years and observed riders behavior and complaints
There are two HEETS that get jammed up when people want to exit and enter at the same time. There is plenty of room for more heets's as preposed by the MTA that would easily solve this problem
I guess most folks are too lazy to close their strollers, because they insist on going through the gate, with the baby in the stroller, not in their hand.
>>People with baby carrages should use the main entrance. Another solution is to provider a call box to the 24 hour booth who could trigger the release the maintance gate.
There are call boxes in the main booth, for emergencies, but there are no remote access control boxes to the gates. Not everyone believes in entering by the main entrance.
>>The only problem at 34th street herald square east entrance is that there is not enough HEET's or exit only Iron Maidens when the booth is closed. I worked and went to shool at that station for nearly 4 years and observed riders behavior and complaints.
They'll always find something to complain about. Perhaps those exit only gates should be converted to HEETS. Would that solve your problem?
>>There are two HEETS that get jammed up when people want to exit and enter at the same time. There is plenty of room for more heets's as preposed by the MTA that would easily solve this problem.
More HEETS = More headaches?
-Stef
I did actually just relay my wife's serious complaint about Spring St on the IND.
With appropriate changes in procedure, the MTA could close booths. Those changes in procedure have not yet happened.
Given what the service contracts cost (I'm sure there's renegotiations given the extra wear, even if it's only 10% more, that STILL costs the vendor) but I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be a cash LOSS since the TA doesn't have it's own "pull, solder and put back on the shelf" for the TWU guy/gal to slap into a TA maintained piece of equipment departments anymore and depends on contractors. Oh, this can get interesting. :)
And how ABOUT those "hotline phones" ... PATH's got 'em, right? Anyone inventory the subways for that old measure of quality of government, "or equivalent?"
Looks like the T.A. will have to replace those read/write heads on a regular basis to prevent those lockouts.
Bill "Newkirk"
And having WORKED for goobermint, nobody thought of this outside of TWU "maintainer" titles who (if they happen to be reading this) are chortling with delight over what their wigs and Jay Street went and did here ... I've always maintained (from genu-wine PERSONAL TA experience) that they've got the WRONG people whizzing in them cups. :)
It may just be that people have dirty metrocards, and the scanners get dirty too. But NYCT is going to have to provide some incentive (whether negative or positive) to get S/As to clean turnstiles that aren't right in front of their noses.
My wife wanted to go downtown at Spring on the C/E the other day. She has a knee injury so every flight of stairs is an issue. She went downstairs, where there was a crowd of people none of whom could get their cards to work in the HEETS. She had to go back upstairs, cross 6th Ave, enter the uptown platform, and use the underpass.
I also find that unattended HEETs have a very high read failure rate.
The job of ensuring that metrocard swipes are operational 90+% of the time should fall on the shoulders of the station mananagers. If the percentages during tests does not meet a certain level he/she should face penalties or not recieve a bonus.
I course in the world of unions, the union leaders want nothing to do with job performancce bonuses. They want no penalties.
Yes the S/A are now responcible for the swipes. Station cleaners could also help out, but it is up to those who are in charge of the station facilities to ensure equiptment is working.
From a station agent point of view, the more the HEETS swipes are dirty, the easier it is for the anti-change folks such as the newsday writer to write misleading articles.
Smart cards is really the wave of the future and would solve many of the current problems. The expense of overlaying the system over the current technology ROI won't be good enough unless they can close more tooken booths.
At 14th street Union square for example. No more then one tooken booth for the entire station should be open. The demographics of the area and the fact that a police station is within cancels out any of the straphangers campaigns complaints. In fact this station would be the perfect station to go 100% tooken boothless
Not with HEETs, though. People just don't go through HEETs as fast as they go through regular turnstiles. And there are some entrances (e.g., SE corner) where all the turnstiles are in heavy use for the entire rush hour, and there's no room to add more.
HEET's are not apropiate for ultra high rush hour loads. Although with smartcards the thouroughput through heets would increase.
HEET's are good for secondary entrances which prevent those who don't pay a fare at all from entering the subway system. HEET's are easier to sneek multiple people in on one fare then regular turnstyles
Paris has an elegant solution. There turnstyles have a small door above the turnstyle that prevents people from easily walking or jumping over the turnstyle. The door opens once a rider pays the fare and moves the turnstyle. This would be more appropiate then HEETS at primary entrances.
As for 14th street union square closing all token booths. No one would even blink an eye. On Tuesday i observed the 16th street entrance for a half hour. 15 of 17 people who bought fare used the MVM's. 12 of them paid by credit card. That booth should be closed permenantly.
One other point from the newsday article that ticks me off. Would it be so hard for the S/A to close off the ligt inside the booth when one closes up for the night. The light in the booths at sheepshead bay part time entrance is on 24/7 even thought he booths is open for 5 hours or less mon-fri only. What a waste of electricity
Has it ever occurred to you that may be management wants the lights to stay on? As usual, you fault the the Clerk for everything that goes wrong. Get off your soap box and spare me your proverbial bs.
-Stef
Someone is rather touchy. There was nothing I saw blaming the S/A in the previous post. It is just as easy to interpret it as saying the TA should have the S/A turn off the light, implying a decision by the TA to have the S/A leave the lights on at all times.
Tom
-Stef
I don't dislike station agents. They are just not needed in there current function. They represent a $400 million expense that the public just can not afford. There are some bad S/A who are rude, but if I was locked in a small booth in a dank subway station I could not say with a straigh face that I would be smiling and wishing everyone a nice day.
"It is just as easy to interpret it as saying the TA should have the S/A turn off the light, implying a decision by the TA to have the S/A leave the lights on at all times"
I am not blaming the S/A. For all I know it may be TA policy to leave the lights on in the booth. If you read my post and previous posts on the matter(and I know you did) you would have noticed my questioning the MTA's policy of not turning lights off in fare controls that are locked up for the night behind gates. The MTA policy should be to turn off the lights. It is a big waste of money, not to mention the city has power shortages in the summer for which the energy could be put to good use. My suggestion was to install motion detectors that automatically shut the lights off after 30 min as to not to add an adddtional task to S/A duties when it is not needed
There are a lot of such places where you have this problem. I mean what's the use of cashiers at Old Navy? They're as rude as some S/As. Why not eliminate them, pay the computer myself and just present the receipt to the security gaurd who verifies I paid for everything.
There would be a lot more unemployed if we followed the "replace everyone we can with computers philosophy. Probably even yourself. Computers everywhere though.
I wonder how well SkyNet would be able to run the subway. Eh but without people who needs it.
No there wouldn't. People have to build and maintain those robots.
Using your philosophy, we never would adopted MUDC because those 9 other conductors in the train lost their jobs. There also would be no bulldozers because all those people digging with shovels would be unemployed. Let's not forget all of the people unemployed by the development of automatic brakes and couplers.
But that could be a problem in attended booths during slow periods. :-)
Tom
I would think that clean turnstile readers are in the best interest of station agents. Dirty turnstile readers mean longer lines at the booth and more complaints and hassles for the station agent.
-Stef
If more preventative maintenance were done on the T/S, you'd might see less problems. Every so often, maintainers should come along and inspect the equipment to ensure reliable operation.
-Stef
-Stef
Arti
-Stef
Nothing that can't be cured with a little paint and handle time tho'.
The MTA needs to find a smart card supplier that can cheaply manufacture the cards. Originally when the MTA bought the Current metrocards form Cubix they cost 10 times there current cost.
More reliable smart cards would pave the way for an expanded subscription based auto-refilling metrocard. This would spell the last nail in the coffin of S/A as fare sellers
-Stef
That's right! And the removal of the token from the booth was the first step towards progress, as you knew that already. Furthermore, when the computer in the booth goes down, customers have no choice but to use the MVMs.
-Stef
-Stef
Looks like the booth change funds are seeing increases as a result of the loss of the token reserve.
-Stef
Supervision will have fun getting small bills to booths that need them.
New York Times story
Answer Selkirk?
Tomorrow will mark 56 years since Fred rode on the Sea Beach for the first time.
And yesterday marked 54 years since my folks got on a military transport boat, the Hersey, at Bremerhaven for their 10-day journey to the US under the auspicies of the Displaced Persons Act. They arrived in New York on the 27th and began a new life in the States.
jv
1) What model is the car that MNRR uses out of GCT that look like LIRR M-series cars?
2) What is the Comet model of the MNRR that runs, i.e. from Brewster North to Wassaic? It looked like a mix of the Comet III and Comet IV car of NJT mixed into one.
3) What is the name of the New Haven locomotive that MNRR has? This was was #2024, and it pulled our 2-car train from Brewster North to Wassaic. Does MNRR have only one of these?
4) From the ground, I noticed 4-digit numbers in yellow on a navy blue background on a rounded-rectangular sign. One number I caught was 2334. What do these numbers mean?
5) What do .5, 1, 1.5, and 2 (and others) stand for when they are black and in a white background, small sign? These are found after station stops. (They may be found somewhere else if I'm not mistaken)
6) How many cabooses does MNRR have? What are they used for?
7) What is the yard outside of Brewster North? What are the names of the other yards along the line from GCT to Wassaic?
8) I spotted an abandoned track south of Harlem Valley station. What was that used for?
9) Who was the predecessor of MNRR? I noticed broken rails and crossties inside the tunnel north of GCT. What were these used for?
10) How many tracks are there at Grand Central Terminal and why are they numbered as such?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I'll do the easy question of the bunch.
New York Central for the Harlem and Hudson branches, New Haven RR for the New Haven branch. Then they merged w/ Pennsylvania RR to produce Penn Central and then Conrail.
For how long? It was certainly an independent (and nearly bankrupt) railroad in the 50s. I thought it was never merged into the NY Central until the big Penn Central merger.
Um no. They NH was a non-bias third party railroad that could freely interchange with both the PRR and NYC. The NH merged with the Penn Central in 1972, not 1968. This is also why only the New Haven Line should be given the option of Penn Station or GCT, NOT the LIRR East Access thinggie. PRR and NYC must never mix.
M1A and M3A
2) What is the Comet model of the MNRR that runs, i.e. from Brewster North to Wassaic? It looked like a mix of the Comet III and Comet IV car of NJT mixed into one.
Metro-North refers to them as Shoreliners. The ones that we designate "PP" (Push-pull) are Shoreliners I,II,III. The ones that we designate "CTD" Center-Door are Shoreliner IV.
3) What is the name of the New Haven locomotive that MNRR has? This was was #2024, and it pulled our 2-car train from Brewster North to Wassaic. Does MNRR have only one of these?
These are FL-9 engines orginally owned by the New Haven. In later years the State of Connecticut brough several of them and painted them in NHRR colors.
4) From the ground, I noticed 4-digit numbers in yellow on a navy blue background on a rounded-rectangular sign. One number I caught was 2334. What do these numbers mean?
5) What do .5, 1, 1.5, and 2 (and others) stand for when they are black and in a white background, small sign? These are found after station stops. (They may be found somewhere else if I'm not mistaken)
6) How many cabooses does MNRR have? What are they used for?
There are at least two cabooses left. We use them as rider cars on work trains.
7) What is the yard outside of Brewster North? What are the names of the other yards along the line from GCT to Wassaic?
North White Plains and Put Junction. There are sevral other areas where trains can be laid up adjacent to the mainline.
8) I spotted an abandoned track south of Harlem Valley station. What was that used for?
It sound like this is the long abandoned lead to the former State Hospital power plant. The elevated ramp for the coal cars is still intact behind the pwer plant.
9) Who was the predecessor of MNRR? I noticed broken rails and crossties inside the tunnel north of GCT. What were these used for?
1968 NYCRR (Harlem and Hudson LIne) merges with PRR becoming Penn-Central.
1969 PC is forced to takeover NY,NH &HRR (New Haven Line,formely called the Shoreline.
1976 Penn-Central is absorbed into Conrail
1983 Metro-North Commuter RRR takes over operation.
Trackage within the terminal has been changed many times. There are several sections of abandoned track. What you may have seen was the abandoned remains of one of the four lower level lead tracks. (Track A aka the Subway).
10) How many tracks are there at Grand Central Terminal and why are they numbered as such?
The actual number of tracks is somewhere over 100 if you include the yards. Tracks number 1-99 are on the upper level while tracks numbered 100 and up are on the lower level. Tracks are numbered from east to west.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Read all about it: There's a inexpensive book:
Commuter Trains to Grand Central Terminal, Quadrant Press Review #10 by Tom Nelligan = lots of history & photos in a small book.
The one-track line splits via a switch right past the station to the north.
The same models that LIRR uses out of Penn that look like the MNRR M-series cars.
What is the Comet model of the MNRR that runs, i.e. from Brewster North to Wassaic? It looked like a mix of the Comet III and Comet IV car of NJT mixed into one.
They are not Comets, but Shoreliner III's.
What is the name of the New Haven locomotive that MNRR has? This was was #2024, and it pulled our 2-car train from Brewster North to Wassaic. Does MNRR have only one of these?
You got lucky, that's an FL-9 and there aren't too many of them left. A few years ago MNRR had a pool of about 30, but its probably down since then. Here is a pic of 2024 at New Haven, it is usually teamed with 2014 on inspection train runs:
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/NH_2024e.jpg
From the ground, I noticed 4-digit numbers in yellow on a navy blue background on a rounded-rectangular sign. One number I caught was 2334. What do these numbers mean?
Probably millage
5) What do .5, 1, 1.5, and 2 (and others) stand for when they are black and in a white background, small sign? These are found after station stops. (They may be found somewhere else if I'm not mistaken)
Probably carlength markers
How many cabooses does MNRR have? What are they used for?
A handful. They are used for various forms of special clearance or cargo trains, work trains and trains that need long backup moves.
What is the yard outside of Brewster North?
I think its just called Betwster.
9) Who was the predecessor of MNRR? I noticed broken rails and crossties inside the tunnel north of GCT. What were these used for?
They took over from the Penn Central that took over from the NY Central and New Haven RR's. The crap in the tunnel is just crap.
10) How many tracks are there at Grand Central Terminal and why are they numbered as such?
There used to be more, but now there are probably about 30-40. 100 # tracks are the lower level.
The New York, New Haven and Hartford.
Peace,
ANDEE
David
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike: After the railroad ceased to have a use for much of the yard Concourse Village was constructed over it in much the same way as happened at the IRT Lenox Avenue Yard.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Brooklyn: The spur was one of only two branches of the New York Central's Harlem Division; the Port Morris Branch and the Lake Mahopac Branch. The spur even lost its branchline status about 40 years ago being downgraded to simply being a yard track of the Oak Point Yard.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Until the Bergen Street Tower is repaired i believe that the F and V will make all stops to Smith/9th Street however what happens after that is up for debate
1-The original concept of the Culver Line was an inner zone and outer zone
The Outer Zone is all stations from Kings Highway to Stillwell Ave and trains operating express from Kings Highway to Jay Street or Church Ave
The Inner Zone was all stations from Church Ave to Kings Highway with trains making all stops
Since the switches at Kings Highway currently do not allow a local train to switch to the middle track the F and V can not operate that service plan.
To operate the Express from Kings Highway will require passengers form the outer zone to switch at Kings Highway and does not make sense.
Also prior to Stillwell Ave being closed alternate F's terminated at Kings Highway because there was sufficent service between Kings Highway and Stillwell peak rush.
In 1995 there was a proposal to have the alternate F's terminate at Church Ave along with the G's but was never implemented.
I wonder what the TA has in mind now
Thank You
Understandable, because that would have provided pretty meager service (7 tph max, usually 6) at all except a few stations.
But if you add some Vs in, now you have maybe 16, 18, or 20 tph, and then you can turn half the trains at Church and still provide decent service.
Which locomotives have bathrooms in them?
Most freight locomotives have the crapper down in the nose.
Metrolink (southern California) has NO crapper in their locomotives. Their theory is, if the engineer has to go, he's gonna have to wait until he reaches a station, notifies the conductor and dispatcher via radio (and I've heard this done --"Hey Ed, I gotta go back and drain the main reservoir!") -- and then he can trot back to the first coach (and hope it isn't occupied already....)
Are there actually 2 bulbs in there or just 1?
Is the "Step all the way into the car" announcement an automated station announcement? I heard this harsh female voice at two different station stops on the Lex. line.
Also, if my memory serves me correctly (and it may be a bit faulty since these were done three years ago), the decision as to which lines and announcements were to be male or female voices was specified by the MTA in their instructions to us.
I also remember that reporter Dianne Thompson did the #2 line and that Charlie Pellit recorded a lot of the male voice announcements, such as "Stand clear of the closing doors."
Foamer that I am, it was a treat to go up to E. 180th Street shops with several other "Bloombergers" after the announcements were uploaded to the new cars. They gave us the royal tour of the new R142's in the shop before they went into service. I was especially appreciative of the MTA and Bombardier people who were so willing to answer my technical questions about the new technologies that were being incorporated into the new cars.
Ryan
p.s. also, anyone know if the masstransiscope is still working, or recommendations on extremely cool parts of the subway to visit?
1 Day pass: $7
7 Day Unlimited $22
So, 5 days of Fun passes will cost you $35 instead of $22 for the 7-day pass (even though you won't be needing it for 7 days.)
Parking in NJ may be difficult also, might want to try someplace in Hoboken, this way you can ride the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to Bayonne and back, then you need $1.50 to ride the PATH train into NYC.
Most Park and Ride lots are maintained by NYC DOT, not MTA and they charge a fee. There is only one NYCT parking lot I know of, at Arthur Kill Road/Richmond Ave that is used primarly for express bus commuters and it's too far away.
Are you near any city that is served by Amtrak or Greyhound/Trailways bus? You might be better off doing that. All Amtrak trains go into Penn station, a block from your hotel, and the PA bus terminal is 8 short blocks (get a cab ride anyway) from your hotel.
Queens Plaza lot is 24/7 and is a good lot to use but you have to get there first.
Correction: $21. So it's an even better value (even if by $1).
Hoboken is a no go for parking. The best place to park would be in brooklyn or queens on a city street. The only problem is that there is alternate side of the street parking rules used for street cleaning you have to be aware of.
If he wants to take a 30 ride into the city, parking near sheepshead bay train station on the Q express is a perfect spot. Parking is free. Nice express ride on a R40 slant. The station is located right off the Belt Parkway's Coney Island exit.
If you are going West bound the exit leaves you right next to the subway station.
If you are going eastbound. Take the service road to first left(sheapshead bay road) Make your first left and there is plenty of free safe parking all over.
There is also free street parking west of 8th ave. Just read the sign before you park. Some places yu can not park during rush hours.
Residential streets in areas such as park slope, brooklyn heights, cobble hill are fairly secure. More secure then in a long term parking lot or park and ride where wood be criminals know you won't be coming back for quite some time.
If he wants to take a 30 ride into the city, parking near sheepshead bay train station on the Q express is a perfect spot. Parking is free. Nice express ride on a R40 slant. The station is located right off the Belt Parkway's Coney Island AVE exit.
If you are going West bound the exit leaves you right next to the subway station.
If you are going eastbound. Take the service road to first left(sheapshead bay road) Make your first left and there is plenty of free safe parking all over.
There is also free street parking west of 8th ave. Just read the sign before you park. Some places yu can not park during rush hours.
There is also plenty of free safe street parking along the west end line.
Take belt parkway bay parkway exit. Eastbound make first left at bay parkway. You will see the west end El in front of you
West bound make a right and park on a side block near the EL.
Sheapshead bay would be a better bet due to the shorter commute
There are also some areas that have no alternate side at all, but most of them aren't near the subway (although I know of some near the Brighton line).
CG
Michael
Are you coming up from Atlanta? If so, why not just take Amtrak? You might even be able to snag a good fare among the Rail Sale specials on Amtrak's Web site.
In addition to the other suggestions you've gotten for parking, I've read that there's long-term parking near the Port Imperial ferry terminal in Weehawken NJ, near the Lincoln Tunnel. Don't know how much it costs, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I killed 3 rolls of film in 207th and I love it!
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
ps R160s have their front made in fully in stainless steel not like 143s sleel and fibeglass !
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
funny thing i didn't expect to see inboard bearing trucks on the 160s !
Robert
-Robert King
-Robert King
--AcelaExpress2005 - M7 #7046
i guess you have not read all of my previos posts this week !
i have a fiend who is actualy a good and a close friend of my family and who happens to be a 207th st yard Shop Superintendent who promised me a toor and a sneak peek of the R160s i ve been waiting for the tour for some time now and today at 6:30Am it happend !
Are you happy now ?
Vlad
LOL !!!
Thought maybe your girlfriend's father got you in
correct again my mother an my girlfriend's mothe work at the same place in NJ and that how ive met my girlfriend and found out she was an A. her father worked for TA B.she like's classic subway cars mde before 1980s ! And C .i never thought that a girl as hot as her would be a railfan !
life has mny suprises some a good and some are bad !
Gotta run boss is comming !
Vlad
You are a pretty bad liar. The only thing I believe is that you work in a cubicle in NJ.
BTW: I have a friend going down to 207th Yard this weekend to get this straightened out, because I don't want this being false information.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And for now Do me a favior just cool it !
and called me CC laocal i think youre theowho is nuts and not me !
Well after i will post pics of todays trip maybe you will shut up !
but you know what i just changed my mind im not posting "jack"
none of these pople including are woth to see the R160s even though i was planing to post em tommorow !
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Waht i was ive thinking of doing that !
i got a better propasition for you i will elave this board as of 6:00pm today since im just fucking wasting my time in this "TUB" talk !
AMI
after 2 weeks of dissing me ! you and the rest of this fucking board aint getting shit !
AMI
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
you called up 207th bulLshit
who did you call ?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Bill "Newkirk"
AMI
John
I am absolutely certain that they are off board acquaintances and knew each other before either came to the board.
i saw it i have prouf and i wanted to sue you just to prove you and the rest of this board wrong exept SELKRKTMO about the R160 issue i would do it !
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
HEH i know for a fact i wont be missin this place !
Getting into a flame war is like competing in the Special Olympics.
You might win, but you'll still be a tard.
Back to lurk mode.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
I don't even think this guy works in a cubicle in New Jersey, to be honest with you. I'm more inclined to believe that what we have here is a college kid posting from home and the campus computer lab between classes.
-Robert King
-Some form of work ID to prove the job.
-The American equivelent of a CFID card or something else to prove he's a reservist.
-Student card(s) from college to prove he's a student.
-Pictures of the R160 or other trains to prove photography.
By the way, N_Slant_40, I can personally scan stuff in to prove each one of these for myself. Given that, you shouldn't have any trouble proving your claims since I can make them myself, with a modification to the point about the military, and actually prove them if an argument starts. Since you're already embroiled in an argument, the ball's in your court so it's time for you to show us the PROFF.
-Robert King
-Work
-Military
-Student
-Photography
I couldn't care less what N_Slant_40 does for a living, what his military involvement may be, where and what sort of student he is, and that he takes railfan pictures (not necessarily of R160s) as long as he can prove them by scanning stuff for us to see as I suggested he do in my previous post.
-Robert King
-Robert King
i tried to be nice and calm but guess i does not work !
-Stef
i will home after celabrating my 19th birthday !
oh i forgot to tell you tha my fiend got me and early bithday present which was a R38 brass set and a R32 brass set 8 cars total all in Ho and powered made by mts imports ! and i think they woul look good with my scratched built R40 slants an an R40m !
Vlad
JV
Any FIENDS there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Operation of the gate requires the burning of various enchanted spices and inhalation of their magical fumes.
Jv
---Choo Choo
AMI
-Stef
wayne
Before subways become cost effective, land use would have to change, but before land use would change, you'd have to have a shift to mass transit. Something needs to do for today's cities what the streetcars and Els did for New York -- increase density to the point where heavy rail makes sense.
The best chance I see is BRT. If you have two fully grade separated busways, with pull outs for stations, with entrance ramps for local buses to get on and go express, congering on a city center from four points of the compass, then maybe you can get a change in land use. Once there is enough density, rails could be installed. At that point, additional subway routes may become feasible, without a transition from BRT. But you need something to start with.
Mark
Now LRV is cost effective, because adequate highway ROW is available, and people would prefer thier cars. Now in places like NYC traffic is so great, it would be impossible build new highway infrastructure. LRV can be seen as a way to increace capacity. I do not think that LRV can at all make a dent or impact in this traffic, any more than a few more busses can.
New elevated lines, running longer trains on an ROW that is not subject to traffic delays is a very viable option. But who would want more els in mid-town or down-town business districts.
So I foresee cities building elevateds along suburban avenues (Which are up to six or more lanes wide already, perhaps with a median) where they will not cause light oclusion to a neighborhood, nor would be a particualr audible impact. These lines would merge together into major trunks, until they transversed three or four major routes which clearly would need to be subways.
These might all be eight car trains, but the outlying routes might have 15 minute headways, but as they merge together, each of the city trunks might have 90 second headways, but with upto 10 routes being represented on each line.
I will pick a city, and try to make a map of my thought to see what such a system might look like.
Elias
I don't think that LRV is cost effective. As Matthew Parris (a former MP who is now a journalist) points out (The Times, London, 8th Feb 2003), "a tram [UK word for a trolley, LRV or streetcar] is just an incredibly costly bendy bus on an incredibly costly dedicated track to which it has dangerously low adhesion and which prevents it passing, diverting or being passed". He continues, "we are left with one big plus: the modern tram lacks the social stigma of the bus. Trams thus became a crazily expensive way of relaunching a brand whose image had become tarnished: the bus". Parris' solution is more nice big red Routemasters (those nice London buses with the entrance at the back), "ruthlessly policed bus lanes", and "fast and frequent buses which are free" - all this coming from a Conservative (our equivalent of the Republican Party) former MP. With the Congestion Charge, we might even be able to fund this system!
So I foresee cities building elevateds along suburban avenues
I like the idea!
I will pick a city, and try to make a map of my thought to see what such a system might look like.
Can't wait!
Bring ’em back!
John
Nothing like the lazy way to shop...
There’s nothing more frustrating than standing at bus stop Q when another bus you could have taken stops at bus stop S.
Oxford Street & Regent Street are particularly bad examples of this phenomenon.
John
Oxford Street & Regent Street are particularly bad examples of this phenomenon.
The worst one IMHO is at Marylebone Station, where the 2 stops in Great Central Street, but all the other Southbound buses stop a 5 minute walk away on Baker Street.
Minneapolis, possibly.
This is based on raw data, so if used as a sole means of decidng where needs a subway, it comes up with some pretty amusing things - Honolulu being more deservant of transit than Miami for instance, and Oklahoma City more than Atlanta.
What is notable is where these cities are - an awful lot of the big ones without subways seem to be in Texas!
Here is the list of transitless cities:
4) Houston, TX
6) Phoenix, AZ
9) San Antonio, TX
12) Indianapolis, IN
15) Columbus, OH
16) Austin, TX
18) Memphis, TN
19) Milwaukee, WI
22) Nashville-Davidson, TN
23) El Paso, TX
24) Seattle, WA
26) Charlotte, NC
27) Fort Worth, TX (this one really should be on the 3rd list!!!)
29) Oklahoma City, OK
30) Tucson, AZ
31) New Orleans, LA
34) Long Beach, CA
35) Albuquerque, NM
36) Kansas City, MO (according to the census data - I always thought it was in KS)
37) Fresno, CA
38) Virginia Beach, VA
41) Oakland, CA
42) Mesa, AZ
43) Tulsa, OK
44) Omaha, NE
45) Minneapolis, MN
46) Honolulu, HI
48) Colorado Springs, CO
50) Wichita, KS
Here is a list of those large cities which have light rail, peoplemovers etc:
7) San Diego, CA
8) Dallas, TX
10) Detroit, MI
11) San Jose, CA
14) Jacksonville, FL
25) Denver, CO
28) Portland, OR
32) Las Vegas, NV
40) Sacramento, CA
49) St Louis, MO (comes close to being a subway!)
Here (for sake of completeness) is a list of those large cities which have subways:
1) New York, NY
2) Los Angeles, CA
3) Chicago, IL
5) Philadelphia, PA
13) San Francisco, CA
17) Baltimore, MD
20) Boston, MA
21) Washington, DC
33) Cleveland, OH
39) Atlanta, GA
47) Miami, FL
I used to live in St. Louis, and I agree that Metrolink is more like a rapid transit line. With the heavy patronage, it should consider using overhead power rapid transit cars.
As far as the other cities are concerned, the low population density and a small CBD workforce population would not justify (to the Federal Government) funding to build a subway system.
Does Oakland qualify in having its own subway system? There is a BART line from Fremont to Concord that goes thru Oakland's CBD, and does not go to San Francisco. When I was in the Bay Area many years ago, I rode this line from Berkeley to Fremont in the evening rush hour. There was heavy patronage of commuters departing downtown Oakland stations.
Finally, Indianopolis has its own downtown people mover. Clarian Health Care has a 1+ mile line connecting its hospitals, and is free and open to the general public. Hopefully, it will be a catalyst for a citywide system (similar to the Las Vegas monorail).
As I typed it I thought "ha ha ha - what a joke", but I've been making a few quick calculations on population densities and so far Honolulu is the most densely populated on that list (okay, I haven't checked them all yet)! The only one I've calculated yet that came anywhere close was Houston, TX. However, both of those still have less than two-thirds the population density of Los Angeles, so I'm not sure even they are viable.
First some well known cities which most certainly do have transit, to give an idea of what kind of number is "dense".
Paris, France (63374)
New York, NY (26430) # remember this includes Staten Island, so it is lower than it might otherwise have been #
Chicago, IL (12758)
London, England (11862)
Washington, DC (9378)
Los Angeles, CA (7878)
And now the list:
34) Long Beach, CA (9230)
45) Minneapolis, MN (6957)
19) Milwaukee, WI (6218)
46) Honolulu, HI (4337)
37) Fresno, CA (4112)
15) Columbus, OH (3388)
4) Houston, TX (3374)
44) Omaha, NE (3362)
42) Mesa, AZ (3171)
9) San Antonio, TX (2806)
6) Phoenix, AZ (2781)
31) New Orleans, LA (2678)
16) Austin, TX (2605)
50) Wichita, KS (2532)
30) Tucson, AZ (2496)
35) Albuquerque, NM (2478)
18) Memphis, TN (2330)
23) El Paso, TX (2264)
26) Charlotte, NC (2235)
43) Tulsa, OK (2148)
48) Colorado Springs, CO (1940)
27) Fort Worth, TX (1825) # and it used to have a subway too!!! #
38) Virginia Beach, VA (1715)
36) Kansas City, MO (1406)
22) Nashville-Davidson, TN (1086)
29) Oklahoma City, OK (834)
I can quite believe it. The data had a load of notes about messing around with borders, so it looked like it had been fiddled.
Interestingly, the cities in Britain where I'd want to put subways have good population density figures (including, surprisingly, Leicester!):
Liverpool 10863
Leicester 10396
Birmingham 9725
Leeds 3365
Honolulu County is the entire island of Oahu.
You can fairly easily achieve a residential density of 75,000/per square mile with three-story buildings. The theoretical maximum density, even allowing 750 square feet of indoor space per person, for an area that allows 25-story buildings (easily within the 400-foot limit) would be about 625,000 people per square mile, a density never achieved anywhere at any time. That's without allowing for commercial space, but even if you allow 50% for commerce, you're looking at densities only seen in antibellum Lower Manhattan.
When was this bellum that caused a lowering of densities?
According to _722 Miles: The Building of the Subways and How They Transformed New York_ (Hood), "Even though the total population of New York City increased 56 percent between 1910 and 1941, the number of people who lived in Manhattan fell 19 percent during this period, from 2,331,542 to 1,889,924... in 1910, forty-nine of every one hundred New Yorkers lived on the twenty-three square miles of Manhattan Island; by 1940 only twenty-five of every one hundred resided there... from 1910 to 1940 its population density dropped from 161 people per acre to 130 per acre.
A
Has it actually started running yet? I've been watching for information about it, but I haven't seen any reports of a launch. All I've seen are references to a target of spring 2003.
New Orleans is listed as having nothing, but it has two streetcar lines, with additional construction under way.Seattle has its Waterfront streetcar, which started as a tourist operation but evolved into a regular part of the city's transit system. Don't Tucson, Nashville, Fort Collins and other cities also have streetcar routes?
And Miami's system isn't really a "subway," since it never goes underground.
How come Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Boston, and Baltimore don't get listed as having light rail?
And then there are the Seattle and Las Vegas monorails.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I'd actually done the list in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't look in depth into each city, merely at the list of cities with whatever on Metro Planet and compared it to the 2000 Census data. New Orleans evidently ended up as a result on the wrong list. Oops.
And Miami's system isn't really a "subway," since it never goes underground.
Again - Metro Planet lists it as having one full metro line.
How come Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Boston, and Baltimore don't get listed as having light rail?
Basically I'd classified them as having subways, not ONLY light rail. I nearly put St Louis in that category too.
And then there are the Seattle and Las Vegas monorails.
Yes, major headache.
All I was trying to do was, however imperfectly, to create a statistical basis for where the justification of new subways might be possible.
Of course it's a subway The technical term for subway is heavy rail, and Miami fits the definition of heavy rail. The word "subway" no longer exclusively means an underground railway.
Also, how does this current allow for high speed operation?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
There are several varieties in NYC.
Elias
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=326378
and it's in the same subject matter also... If you want to see more, go search for yourself in the archives...
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Weren't you opposed to flaming, you hypocrite? (look it up)
The third rail's voltage has nothing to do with its design.
There are two basic types of third rail: over-running (as found on NYCTA, LIRR, and most everywhere else) and under-running (as found on MNR). They are so named because the shoe makes contact on the top ("over") or bottom ("under") side of the rail. The cover is not an integral part of the rail, it's purely (surprise!) a cover, and need not be present. Do you have a specific question about a specific type of rail that you've seen used somewhere?
Also, how does this current allow for high speed operation?
Volts are not a measure of current; your question is unclear.
Mark
Hopefully this picture I took of an MFL train at 69th st will clarify things a bit more, you can see that the 3rd rail shoe is a good deal lower than overrunning shoes, such as those used by NYCTA, LIRR and SEPTA's Rt100 and BSS. Also note that the upper portion of the shoe is clearly shiny, showing that it's rubbed against something, plus I'd think SEPTA would paint it if it didn't need to conduct electricity.
I'm not sure how underrunning 3rd rail would be any faster than overrunning, in fact I've always thought of it as slower. I once did hear that underrunning 3rd rail results in smaller gaps than overrunning third rail in switching situations. Does anyone know if this is true?
Hope I helped clear things up.
There's no technical reason that it should. In fact, I would think that (as a practical matter) the opposite would be true, if indeed there were to be any difference between the two, and that is because overrunning rail can be located closer to the ground, and hence below any overhanging part of the carbody structure. But I don't have any practical experience with it so I can't comment authoritatively.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If this topic was discussed before then forgive me for bringing it up again.
http://www.nycrail.com/images/contributed/mark_w/mannybservice.jpg
Take a look here for one of many threads on the topic.
In any event the rational is that the Brighton and the West End sould each have a FULL TIME service, and each would have a part-time exp(?) service.
So the (B) and the (D) cannot both be 24/7 because that would screw up the north end. (Lines *do* have two ends!)
So if the (D) is 24/7 (and it is) it can run either on the Brighton or on the West End. My idea left it on the Brighton, and made the (Q) the Exp 16/5. The TA moved it to the West end and made the (Q) 24/7 Local on the Brighton, and the (B) the 16/5 Express there.
So the (D) is now to be the 24/7 Local on the West End joined by the (M) as the 16/5 (or whatever) Express (? we wish).
So now the 6th Ave (Exp) Bridge has a 24/7 Local and a 16/5 Express
And the Broadway Express (Bridge) has a 24/7 (Brighton Local) and a 16/5 (Sea Beach Express).
Follow me so far???
No? well, you *read* the article, so what did you think of it.
Me? I think it is workable and similar in scope to my own devices.
Elias
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
AMI
David
Robert
Shuttle
Thank You
I posted one recently of the undercarriage of an R44 which is within the '*' threads.
I also have another one:
What is the gray structure that has a fan caged in that is found under all R62(A)'s?
What is the wheel diameter of each type of subway car?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If someone asks a specific question, why would you post a rediculous non-answer? BTW Both of your guesses are wrong.
Dave
That's right, 34" is the standard diameter.
Mark
I'm wondering if the ever had anti abuse relays like elevators sometimes do (basically, keeps the operator from blowing the thing up by wacking the controller between modes quickly).
You're supposed to maintain it in this position for only a few seconds at a time, the objective to get the train moving slowly, then drop out into coast to roll through switches. Running in this manner (on subway cars at least) is the surest way to get written up short of splitting a switch or hitting a homey.
But basically it's same as series with a lot more resistance in order to simply MOVE the train. It isn't a different motor configuration.
That as because the R-44's were doing 80+ MPH.
Bill "Newkirk"
Details on the speed run here
I believe the traction motors may have been designed to transit specs. and pushing them beyond their scope caused damage. I don't know if the TA engineers consulted with the LIRR to verify their third rail voltage. Maybe the TA engineers should have added a voltage dropping resistor to make the R-44's accept 600 volts for testing.
When the M-1's were new, they actually did 100 MPH, but were governed for 80 MPH because the track work reflected the slower older MU equipment.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not true. There is no evidence the R44 blew out any motors. "Birdsnesting" of the windings may have occurred, though I don'tr have solid evidence that this happened either.
--Seth
Larry, RedbirdR33
Your friend misinterpreted what happened. The information I have is that it is not true. The motors did not burn out; the maintenance folks had to scrape a little extra carbon off the commutators. What your friend saw was the result of arcing due to the voltage on the track being stepped up to 700 volts when that happened.
#3 West End Jeff
What are straphangers? (This is not a stupid question. I want to know)
INCORRECT.
The handle is a strap, a straphanger is a person who hangs from it, hence strapHANGER.
Peace,
ANDEE
Their website has a message board, such as ours does. Some posters even like to think we are at war with each other... Ooh, Subtalkers versus Straphangers!! :-P Of course, it's all silly!
Peace,
ANDEE
When these people get cancer or heart attacks, the city ends up picking up a large portion of the bill. The free Nicotine patches is money well spent.
When these people get cancer or heart attacks, the city ends up picking up a large portion of the bill. The free Nicotine patches is money well spent.
The bill that the public picks up when a person suffers from a smoking-related illness is LESS than if they did not smoke, did not contract such illness and died in their 90s. What people don't realize is that it may cost the city or state money to deal with dying smokers, most smokers die more cheaply than they would have had they lived to be older.
The statistics I've read say that non-smokers die more cheaply. HOWEVER, since they live longer, they collect more in Social Security and other govt-paid pension benefits, and this more than offsets their increased medical expenses. So non-smokers do cost the govt more, but only because of pension benefits.
None of this accounts for the increased productivity of non-smokers. They are likely to be taxpaying employed contributors to the economy for more years than smokers. I don't know what the balance is after you count in their increased tax payments.
As for the relevance to transit, non-smokers are also likely to use transit for more years, driving up usage.
A 20-cent increase is a 10% increase, after 2 years of the new fare -- or a little less than 5% per year. That's a little high, since the biggest cost (staff) the TA has is locked in at less than 3% per year increase from the new contract.
We should really expect $2.20 or $2.25 in 2006, though.
CG
It's also a fact that the average fare actually paid has GONE DOWN since 1995 due to MetroCard discounts and free transfers between subway and bus. How many things do you know that cost less today than they did in 1995?
And when discounts are factored in, the average fare paid when the latest increase takes effect will STILL be less than it was before MetroCard.
In other words, I think the MTA had a pretty good prima facie case for a fare increase this time.
Long distance telephone calls.
NJT fares have been the same for 10 years before they went up on April 1, 2002. The new millennium. Must everything go up? (I don't mind the fare increase, but subsequent increases in a short amount of time I come to resent)
Sorry. While the Bureau of Printing and Engraving in WASHINGTON may print money, they do not create money. Money is created by exchange and by banking which is regulated by the Federal Reserve. The BPE and US Mint (coins) print money when the Federal Reserve needs paper (or metal) money to represent money that would exist regardless.
The BPE also makes stamps for the USPS.
And the reason that we went off the gold standard is that the cost of gold became too high relative to everything else, creating an inflation that really shouldn't have existed.
Arti
You have that backward. When we were on the gold standard, the price of gold did not fluctuate because the United States would sell it to foreigners (Americans were not allowed to own gold coins or bullion) at a fixed price, $33.00 per ounce. Once the United states said it would no longer sell gold, the price shot up.
Tom
I HATE Redbirds, always have and always will. I may respect them for the job they did carrying passengers over many years, but I do not like them.
What the hell are you talking about? That which doesn't conform is usually scorned.
#3 West End Jeff
You are so right, and i think that sums it up for a lot of people that like the Redbirds. It's not that I feel the R142's are a bad idea. Of course I think they arte great form a transportation standpoint. The reason I like the redbirds is because they added variety to the subway in a sea of otherwise silver.
It's the same way I feel about the LIRR. I lost a lot of interest in the LIRR after the old GP38's, MP15's, F units were retired from LIRR service. I think the double-deckers are a great improvement for commuters, but from a railfan's perspective they are rather dull (they all look the same).
However, with that said, I CAN appreciate them as the WORKHORSES of the NYCT, and do realize that they are the last of their kind on the IRT system. And that's why I donate some of my time and energy to restoring a Redbird up at the Shoreline Trolley Museum (Branford).
-Stef
Ya think I could get a token pail out of the deal?
One could go up on e-bay as a piece of memorabilia. This was the pail that carried your granny's token back in the day!!!
-Stef
My like for subways probably stems from the fact that my father has worked for NYCT since I was little.
wayne
The ride is decent, as is the acceleration and braking. I do like the acceleration sounds the R142As make. Mechanically speaking they are quite acceptable and they are as a car class quite smooth. But as far as looks and ambience are concerned, as well as aesthetics, they get a failing grade from me. There is absolutely NOTHING very cheerful about them.
wayne
You can't comment on that as it is simply a matter of opinion. My favorite scheme is that found in the R-62/68 if it wasn't so scratched up. R-44/46 otherwise.
3) the overly austere exterior treatment
I will agree here, but this argument would be far better if you chose to compare the R-14X to the R-32s or R-40s. Nothing is more boring than the Redbird exterior.
4) the choice of single-color red LED for front destination signs
5) the choice of LED for side destination signs
WHY can no one learn the difference? The front signs are LED, the side signs are LCD (they are in fact LED on the R-143).
I guess you would prefer rollsigns. Unfortunately, rollsigns are inflexible as 20 of them have to be changed in every train, and depending on what has to be changed to what, this can be quite painful for the operator/conductor. Digital signs are flexible, and as far as the origin/destination is concerned, I don't care where the train came from, I prefer the route description, which the signs offer. Only thing I can say against them is that they don't display route/dest simultaneously. Color is unneccessary on the NY subway and only used so the map isn't all black and while.
The door chime and RFW are a matter of personal preference. I like the new door chime better than the R-44-68 chime, better than the R-110A buzzer and I like chime better than no chime. I can care less about railfan windows.
Here are things I like about the new tech equipment:
The bar in the center of the ceiling, which means that one is never isolated from a place to grab onto.
The fewer poles down the center make the car easier to navigate
The glass ends
The digital announcer including clock
The individual fold-down seats near the cab
No straps
All the technology. I like technology.
Maybe they could have opted for a different kind of bulkhead sign. That alone annoys the heck out of me, seeing only red. Wouldn't reversing current/polarity make those red signs shine green?
wayne
As it is merely your opinion, it makes no difference whatsoever. Similarly, my opinion is that the R-142 interior color scheme is better. That doesn't matter either.
Wouldn't reversing current/polarity make those red signs shine green?
Only if they're the type that does that.
There you go again, you most certainly can pass through. The only car you can't pass through on is the C/Rs position.
Peace,
ANDEE
I feel that the cars from the 50s and 60s are the blandest and most boring. They are the nadir of subway car design.
Alas, by the time they were gone from the system, they'd gotten MIGHTY crusty in their old age. The prewars were a delight for foamers, skanky and a half for the general public. Like the redbirds, they HAD to go. Time trudges on. :(
And yes, torture devices is putting it mildly. Nothing I ever sat on, not even the R40 seats, were as bad as those!
wayne
That sign box I bought at Shoreline in 1980 had ED signs in it, but I sprang for IND curtains at the same time and put them in.
Us IND boys don't get no respect - to me, 1689 is a MONUMENT. I don't mind being a loner though, more room in da cab. Heh.
Remember, air conditioning is not a privilege...it's a right.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You sir are a weak wuss who will be one of the firhst to perish when hardship occurs. My house has never had AC. When its a 90/90 day I turn on a fan and take it like a MAN. A few trips ago in the summer I specifically rode in an R33 single just so I could say I had beaten it.
You turn on a FAN?
www.forgotten-ny.com
You turn on a FAN? Electricity is for weak wusses. If you took it like a man you'd have your own hand-operated fan. You would use it when taking breaks from tending to your crops while the oxen do the plowing.
WHAT? You don't grow crops? You buy food at the SUPERMARKET? You will surely perish when the end comes.
If subways didn't have A/C, you would have a lot of sweaty people going to work in their business meetings, they would lose business to people in other cities who drive in their air-conditioned cars and aren't as sweaty.
At idle or in heavy local traffic, the additional drag of the A/C compressor, coupled with the lack of forced air through the radiator, does increase the load on the engine. Not so on the open road; in highway driving, operating a vehicle with the windows closed and the A/C on is about 10% more fuel efficient than with the windows open and the A/C off, because the aerodynamic drag associated with the disturbance of the air flow around and through the vehicle is significantly greater than the savings from the compressor being switched off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talking about building cooling, does anyone know what energy it takes to lower temperature per unit volume? I read one time that fans were more efficent than A/C to cool a room and I'd like to confirm or reject that. Aerodynamics aren't a factor here, so the results will be different than with autos.
---Choo Choo
The redbirds are, or were, unique. They remained the only colored rolling stock on the TA long before everything else went silver. As far as subway rolling stock in NYC, they were probably the best recognized throughout the country. I've seen them depicted on TV, in the news, and many other places. They will always be a piece of New York history, like them or not. But, remember. I wouldn't call anyone's granny a rustbucket even if I didn't care for her. What do you think the R-142s will look like in 30 years. If they even can run that long, what with all the computers, DC-AC converters, regenerative breaking, etc. When Granny dies you'll show here respect and love, because she earned it. And, so did the redbirds.
-Stef
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
-Stef
It's been a few months since I've been able to get out to Atlantic Avenue. Just wondering if the cutover to the new Q2 track has happened yet, and if the Snediker line has now been abandoned? If so, how 'bout the connection J2A track (flyover to Broadway), and the yard lead?
Also, along the same line of questioning, has there been any news on the status of the simplification on the JMZ line at Fulton St., Bowery and Essex? Has the J1-J3-J4 interlocking south of Essex been removed yet?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
Still standing !!
The latest target for switchover is Memorial Day weekend. That way no strike threats or snowstorms can postpone it !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh, I'm sure Mother Nature can come up with something to stall the inevitable a little longer for this bit of steel . Last I'd heard was it was done a couple of weeks ago.
Now, with Memorial Day as the target, do you know if they plan to cut in J2A and/or the yard lead as well, or just the main?
Also, will everything go over to Line Q at that time (from the Junction to Rock Park)? I know some line-Q automatics were up last time I around E. 105th and Rockaway Park, but there were still old Line P automatics alive and kicking.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
I'm not sure of that, Peter. My hunch is that on that weekend, everything on both sides of Atlantic ave will be connected. They should have three days to do it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Arti
The plan calls for J3 to be permanently removed from service. If you have any version of the Third Edition of my book, check page 63. If not, the plan is for J1 to remain in service as a non-revenue track. J3 is to be removed/abandoned and the interlocking that presently allows access to/from J3 will be lifted and straight rail installed J1 and J4 tracks. J1 will only connect to J4 below Canal Street and just past Essex (near the portal).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
wayne
Nope. That will remain in service for non-revenue moves. There is no planned passenger service on the Chrystie Street cut for the forseeable future.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
I'm going to push 3.5 back past Memorial Day now, since Snediker is still operational and nothing much (track-wise) has changed since February to warrant a full revision up to 3.5. For now, 3.41 is still dead-balls-accurate as far as I know.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
There are a lot of places in the subway where someone taller than 6'3" would get clocked..... Just about every seat on a train is one place (stand up).
You don't even have to be 6'3". I'm about 6', and I have trouble in some doorways on the R32's (or it could be the R38's).
Actually, truth be told, I've not spent much time around here lately. Between the foul language, ad-hominem attacks and fantasy-train-routing threads that never end, I've just decided to drop in briefly here and there to see if there's anything relevant to track/MOW, GOs, tower info, etc. I've alwasy been more interested in the technical and behind-the-scenes discussions than in "what's your favorite line" or "I {love | hate} redbirds", etc.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Chaohwa
I hope to have the opportunity to be on a future DC Metro Subtalk field trip.
1) 1985 PATH Information Map
2) 1983 National Geographic Magazine Map Insert Washington D.C. Inside the Beltway with Metrorail Lines
3) 1984 New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority Annual Report
4) November 1992 Modern Steel Construction with an article on the construction of Chicago's O'Hare Airport People Mover.
All I ask for is reimburstment for the postage and envelope.
Please e-mail me for those who are interested.
1:I saw R142 set 1106-1110/1121-1125 on the 4
2:Saw 2 7100 R142 set's on the 4
3:Saw a Manhattan bound R142 2 train sign say "7 Av Local" instead of the usual "7 Av express". Now I wonder why they never use that sign during the late night's?
Peace
David
The only shift that was left for me to pick yesterday was from 1300-0300 hours with Tuesday&Wednesday's off.So next week is when I get my first paycheck and pick up my work for the following week after training.
Peace
David
What is happening is that the sets that say "2 7 Av Local" have had their software upgraded somewhat like the 5 line has received on all its cars. They are programmed now to say "7 Av Local" when they run all local stops between 96th and Chambers, instead of "7 Av Express" regardless of any route changes...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
I don't think so!!!!!!!
---Choo Choo
subtalk@railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good thing they have gone to work so fast on Spiderman II. Yet another Hollywood megapicture that will take special care to make sure that the viewing public dosen't think too much. Yup, a bunch of big budget action scenes loosley linked together by largely irrelevent plot scructure constructed of cardboard cuttout characters thrown up faster than platform bridges on Metro North.
---Choo Choo
Actually there's no staircases at all, authentic or otherwise. Apparently it will be filmed only from the back.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It might not have been possible, for various reasons, to do the filming where the real staircases are located.
BTW, there will be some filming for Spiderman II in the Village, not far from West 4th.
I am sure Jersey Mike was disappointed that they didn't blow up an authentic station. :-)
Tom
#3 West End Jeff
Plenty of subway and train stuff in the Press this week, with the cover article on MTA corruption and William Bryk's article on the Jay Street Connecting Railroad.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Nobody who's been following the recent MTA mess should be surprised by anything he or she reads. The MTA has always been a foul animal, a child of incest, the offspring of unnatural acts"
There's also a very colorful description of Governor Pataki's response to Louis Anemone's request for a meeting concerning his investigation into corruption.
Also in the article are allegations that the MTA contracted out oil changes for subway cars for more than $2000 per car. Is that gear box oil or what?
Here's a link to this article:
UNFAIR HIKE
The author of this article offers a lot of sympathy to motorists who were forced by the MTA to subsidize mass transit. HJis description of the MTA actually shows an underlying anti-transit bias, even if some of his allegations are true.
William Bryk's "Old Smoke" columns are the best thing in the New York Press.* While not specifically rail-related, except for this one, they offer a fascinating glimpse into the city's history.
* = next to "Rehabilitating Mr. Wiggles," of course.
At first I was confused, as Plymouth and John Streets run east-west and Adams is north-south. Then I realized the Manhattanocentrism.
1. QJ train changed to the J and the route was cut to 168-Broad 24/7.
2. M train extended to Coney Island via Brighton
3. KK train changed to K and all trains terminated at Eastern Pkwy.
I can understand the K route shortened probably due to low ridership on the Jamaica Av portion by the 70's. But what was the rationale for shortenening the J and extending the M route?? Tony
LIRR Focusing on Expansion, Repairs
By Joie Tyrrell
STAFF WRITER
April 12, 2003
Expanding the railroad beyond its current capacity and ensuring that the beleaguered diesel equipment performs as it should are among the top priorities for the Long Island Rail Road, the acting president said earlier this week.
In a public event sponsored by a transit advocacy group Thursday, LIRR acting president Jim Dermody said the railroad has started a process that could lead to more service on the Port Jefferson line, including electrification east of Huntington. He said the railroad may soon start an environmental review for a third track on the Main Line between Queens Village and Hicksville.
Both projects are in their infancy, however. The railroad is looking to build a yard on the Port Jefferson branch between Huntington and Smithtown for storage and light maintenance.
"We realize for service we need something out there," Dermody said. "It would give us the ability to put more trains out there and have additional service and eliminate overcrowding in the service for Huntington."
The railroad has hired a consultant to perform an environmental impact statement of the area. A specific location has not yet been identified and electrification will depend on the site's location, said LIRR spokesman Brian Dolan. Greenlawn is exempt because of a decision in 2000 by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority not to build in that residential area.
How exactly would they go about electrifying the line? It is known that within the stations on the Port Jeff line are two tracks, but are they going to redo all the structures - such as stonybrook, smithtown bridges and create spacing for two tracks? There are times during the off peak rush hour that ridership is low, is it worth electrifying? What was the case with Greenlawn. They could fix up that abandoned track turnout for the hospital for storage. any info? Thanks...
A big part of the reason ridership is low is because service is sparse. There's lots of unmet demand at rush hour, of course, and if the Port Jeff schedule (or at least part of it east of Huntington)went to hourly trains or better, you'd see ridership come up to some degree pretty quickly.
If I recall correctly, the LIRR ROW past the point wherethe Far Rockaway train splits away becomes 4 tracks until east of Floral Park, where the Hempstead branch splits off.
This means that a third track from Queens Village requires an additional switch, then 5 tracks on the ROW to Floral Park, then 3 tracks to Hicksville, as the Hempstead line splits away. Can this be done without widening the ROW itself?
I've ridden the Port Jeff line a handful of times. If I recall right, the line east of Huntington becomes one track except for stations, but in most places there is enough room to add a second track. As to stations, you make a good point - if we're just talking about a raised platform with a ramp, that can be moved over; but what about buildings? Will the third track force a realignment of the other tracks toward the "non-building" side in each case? I'm trying to think of the geometry - different at each station?
I predict a fair amount of time where the Huntington branch will see "single-tracking" and delays to get this work done. But it is worth it.
Of course there are many grade crossings. The ones at New Hyde Park, for example, will have their gates and light poles moved. Those are already fun crossings, esp. with the idiots who like to get hit by trains. With three tracks and more service (especially when the LIRR's 63rd Street tunnel gets hooked up), there will be lots more opportunities to hand out the Darwin Award.
As to why nobody uses the PJ line on weekends just look at the schedule....One train every three hours, horrible.....On 6/7 when I'm going on the MOD trip from GCT, I'll drive to Huntington (one stop away) so that I can have 4 trains within a 3 hour period, not one train.
I still maintain that electrifying the Ronkonkoma line was one of the worst mistakes possible. It has lead to grotesque overcrowding on that line while nearly killing off the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. In retrospect, it would have made far more sense to have kept Ronkonkoma a diesel line, and used the money to buy quality diesel equipment and have more frequent service on all three of the Suffolk lines.
I can't agree. It was a very good idea - but it should have been tied to a second step, whicch is ensuring sufficient track capacity. If I recall correctly, Ronkonkoma is not two tracks all the distance, right? So if that's the case, a two track line should have been built to Ronkonkoma as part of this process. In fact, LIRR should still do that now, and at minimum make sure that this is completed prior to ESA being completed, though sooner would be nice.
1 - By closing and consolidating several stations, the LIRR would cut about 30 minutes off a Ronkonkoma to NYP run since the line is basically flat and straight through the spine of LI as opposed to the hilly and windy PJ branch ----- Probably true.
2 - MacArthur airport was supposed to move the current terminal to the north side of the field so that the air-travelers would get their luggage and either get on a moving platform or small shuttle vehicle for the short distance to the LIRR station and be in Penn in an hour. This never happened and doesn't seem to be in the cards anymore.
Had both happened, perhaps with increased service and equipment, I could possibly support it for the greater good of LI as a whole. However, we got half a loaf......Both tracks at the Greenlawn Station were given high-level platforms along with a bridge over both.....To the best of my knowledge the south platform has NEVER been used even in an emergency.....Another waste of money and mismanagement by the LIRR.
#2 could have happened, but did not. It wasn't a bad idea - but politics plays in more than one direction.
B"oth tracks at the Greenlawn Station were given high-level platforms along with a bridge over both."
The one high-level platform that is used is much appreciated by those who use it. Definitely not a waste of money.
"To the best of my knowledge the south platform has NEVER been used even in an emergency.....Another waste of money and mismanagement by the LIRR."
Maybe that high level platform was not needed (and still not needed for now). But it's not the disaster you make it out to be.
Regarding LIRR mismanagement: There is some of that. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that if you let railbuffs make all the decisions, they will piss off a lot of passengers royally in the name of running the ultimate railroad (from the choo-choo point of view, if you catch my drift). Not that they can't make a valuable contribution (but many are too cynical and perhaps self-serving to do so).
If you were appointed LIRR President, and had lots of constituencies to satisfy, could you honestly say you could have done any better (and held on to your job)?
It sounds like everybody won something. Electrifying Ronkonkoma may have ranked higher for very legitimate reasons, and the DM30's and the train cars they haul are an order of magnitude better than what you had before. So there's a lot more than hot air there, whether or not you want to see it.
Agreed, the schedule still stinks - but now it looks like it's Port Jeff's turn. A higher population lends more political support for electrification. So now you may have an opportunity to do something about it.
Get over the perceived past slights (sounds like they were more perceived than real - the whole system needed work and PJ wasn't first in line - oh well) and see if you can influence the process now, in a positive way, with phone calls and letters to your elected officials and to the LIRR. The agency wants to start the EIS process - so encourage MTA to move forward. You have nothing to lose except for a few postage stamps.
Oh, really ? 300,000 pound lemons that can't pull over 6 cars is better than GP38's ? Bi-level cars has meant nothing more than trains that a higher and shorter, no more frequent, and no faster. Comet-IV cars and Genesis engines would have done fine, and without wasting money on high-level platforms through out all diesel lines with station abandonments. Some of the those platforms hold only 1 or 2 cars and has increased station dwell times.
And a lot more comfortable, better lit and more accommodating for passengers with disabilities.
"Comet-IV cars and Genesis engines would have done fine, and without wasting money on high-level platforms"
High level platforms discourage trespassing on railroad property, increase the efficiency of passenger loading, and are wheelchair and stroller friendly. Low platforms and stairs are not.
"through out all diesel lines with station abandonments"
Yes, there were a few stations abandoned. If you want them back, write to MTA and demonstrate that the ridership is there for them.
You make a lot of sense if the goal of a railroad is to serve only nostalgia buffs with railroad whistles in their pockets. The last time I checked, that was not the LIRR's mission.
On the other hand, low platforms do live on in dioramas and model trains...
Since the LIRR committed fraud by counting Southampton College ridership in the AM rush in January between Fall and Spring semesters to justify doing what they wanted to do, writing to the hapless arrogant MTA/LIRR is a futile exercise, and you know it.
High-level platform construction on those low-density diesel lines was a collosal and unnecessary waste of capital dollars, not nostalgia, and a con game to justify buying custom-designed bi-level cars for which there was no need. They could have lenghthened a lot of existing high-level platforms that are heavily used like Valley Stream instead. You would be hard-pressed to find another commuter railroad which has seen necessity to do that at every single station. Fraud, lies, and deception has been the LIRR's mission, which is why they are to be merged into Metro-North.
No, I don't and neither do you. You take a "tempest in a teapot" and turn it into a major scandal - but nobody's paying attention except for you.
In fact, while you blow a lot of hot air on Subtalk (that's your privilege, of course), I've had three of my suggestions actually accepted and implemented by the MTA. When I call the offices of elected officials, I get return calls. When I write letters, I get reasoned answers back in the mail, even if they don't always agree with me.
If they don't deal with you that way, it may be your approach that's the problem - have you looked at that?
"High-level platform construction on those low-density diesel lines was a collosal and unnecessary waste of capital dollars, not nostalgia, and a con game to justify buying custom-designed bi-level cars for which there was no need."
I just showed you what they are used for. Those uses are not important to you, but they are important to a lot of riders. And you have not presented any ideas on how to get around that.
"You would be hard-pressed to find another commuter railroad which has seen necessity to do that at every single station. "
They all see the necessity. They don't have the money. There's a difference.
I guess you didn't read Newsday a few years ago. It was a major story about the LIRR's underhandedness.
A lot of riders to not shove baby carriages. SEPTA and most other commuter railroads had simpler solutions for ADA and the LIRR (and you) ignored it.
< They all see the necessity. They don't have the money. There's a difference. >
None see the necessity to use them universally - only the LIRR. Most systems have the money and have equipment that could never be compatible with a high-level platform.
And how many times has that story appeared since then? By contrast, the problems at 2 Broadway are getting major attention with multiple stories daily. That's a major scandal, not Southhampton College's station. Nobody gives a hoot about it now except you.
"Most systems have the money and have equipment that could never be compatible with a high-level platform."
Unless you can prove that with good data I'll safely assume you made that up. SEPTA is perennially broke, so they are not a good example.
Well you give a hoot about baby carriages that must be wheeled on, but not stranded (and politically impotent) college students who now have to call cabs in Southampton or drive even though the train passes right by the college. I don't think you are in position to say I am the only one who gives a damn, even if you don't. Lack of political fallout is no excuse for the LIRR to have done a ridership study in an unethical manner. They certainly didn't pull that with little used stations at Pinelawn Cemetary and Yaphank (govt offices), or they would have had the feds up their ass, which is what happened when they tried to abandon St Albans (VA hospital) in the 1970's.
There is no need to "prove that with good data", because if you knew anything other than the NY subways, you would know that most systems operate with UTDC/Bombardier bi-level and Gallery cars which are totally incompatible with high-level platforms. Furthermore, no host freight railroad would not allow them in any case.
Let's just hope that all the LIRR managers get de-cruited in the process.
Loading a 6 car train with a 1 or 2 car high-level platform (i.e. Glen Street, Bellport, Amagansett) does nothing for efficiency. A simple ramp at one end of the station like SEPTA has would have done fine for ADA.
They also do live on EVERY other commuter railroad except Metra-Electric. Other than them, NONE exist on any system west of Harrisburg and Syracuse, or anywhere in Canada except Montreal-Central. That fact will not change.
Barely adequate, and only if one or two people with wheelchairs are waiting. You forgot about the folks with strollers, luggage, and the ones that handle stairs poorly (more people than you realize).
And then there's the issue of trespass on to the tracks.
I'm not sure exactly what your final comment was about.
You're good with the nostalgia, and I wish you lots of luck with your HO gauge dream layout at home. I'm glad that MTA offers facilities much better than the average cash-strapped commuter road.
"I think the money would have been better spent converting all the remaining diesel lines to electric with the exception of east of Riverhead and east of Patchogue"
As a practical matter, LIRR will not electrify a railroad line without putting up high platforms.
I don't think you have the nerve to tell MBTA, NJT, SEPTA, MNRR, GOT, AMT, VRE, MARC, TriRail, Dallas, and all the West Coast systems that they are nostalgia buffs and they are definitely not capital cash-strapped, except for maybe SEPTA. They certainly wouldn't be pissing away capital money on high-level platforms universally if they were.
I don't see hoards of people with wheelchairs getting on at these little Suffolk County stations. In fact, you can count ridership to be under 30 at many of them for an entire day, including all east of Ronkonkoma.
Trespassing is handled by a fence. They're all over NJT rail lines. High level platforms do not prevent it. There is nothing to stop someone from walking across the tracks to access the 1 or 2 car platform on the other side, and they do it all the time.
Say what? In almost ten years of daily commuting on Metro-North and now the LIRR, I've seen very very few people in wheelchairs. Maybe one per year, if that. It's hardly likely that more than "one or two" people in wheelchairs will be at a station.
If the ADA is looked at as a way of making it easier for disabled people to work (there are other purposes, however), it has been a miserable failure. The percentage of disabled people who hold jobs today is lower than it was pre-ADA. Quite obviously, the lure of government disability benefits outweighs easier job access.
I was all for raising platforms out to Port Jeff, Mastic, and a few heavy stations on the Oyster Bay and in the Hamptons to be done over time, but to buy equipment without traps was stupid.
As for LIRR's high-level platforms, you could't get a wheelchair, baby-carriage, or someone with a pair of crutches into the train as it is without great difficulty. The gap is often 8-9 inches, and the train/platform height are seldom alike. Whether that is deliberate to allow expresses through, or just LIRR's tool-shed engineering, I don't know. Given the fact that Islip and Oakdale platforms sank almost a foot after they were built, I suspect the latter. But the platforms are nearly useless for the disabled in any case.
What "Joe V" doesn't understand is that these are not rural, light density lines. There is no such thing as a rural, light density line on Long Island anymore. It's time to come out of the cave, bro, World War II ended a while back. Put down the rifle and code book and return home. :0)
What cutomers don't appreciate is infrequent service on lousy equipment. Give them decent train cars (LIRR did more than that) on accessible platforms and you'll find out just how much density you have.
"The Greenport line and "Scoot" is Long Island's version of the VIA Rail Dayliner on Vancouver Island. Running bi-levels on it is as ridiculous as though Amtrak ran Superliners on the New Haven-Springfield shuttle. "
Even if that were true, the Port Jefferson Line is not like that at all. The cost of maintaining disparate equipment is something LIRR sought to do without. While Joe V drools over the old garbage trains, customers would yell at LIRR claiming discrimination.
"
As for LIRR's high-level platforms, you could't get a wheelchair, baby-carriage, or someone with a pair of crutches into the train as it is without great difficulty."
Nonsense. Yes, there is a gap, but disabled riders have been able to get aboard well enough. The gap is there to protect the trains in the event their yaw dampers do not prevent collisions with the concrete.
"and the train/platform height are seldom alike."
Not enough to cause a problem, though now and then there may be one.
"But the platforms are nearly useless for the disabled in any case."
More like Joe V's "expertise" is useless in any case. Stick to the HO trains, Joe, and leave the LIRR to professionals. We'll all be better off...
You obviously have never seen some of the stations east of Ronkonkoma on the Greenport Scoot.
Not that I agree with the way the LIRR runs the line between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma (it should be run like Patchogue to Speonk), but you can not get more primitive or rural than those stations, even with the addition of the tiny high level platforms there.
Apparantly, Ron has been living in a cave for 10 years. They now have the nice train and accessible platforms and they still have not produced ridership growth. Ridership to Port Jeff, Speonk, and east of Ronkonkoma was decimated in the 1990's and remains that way 4 years after the fact.
I never said the PJ line was, and have not drooled over garbage trains.
Try to improve your reading comprehension. I said elsehwre electrify to Port Jeff, and buy Comet-IVs for everywhere else.
I commuted on that railroad for 13 years - you know nothing. A wheelchair can't get over a 9 inch gap without trouble. As for the LIRR "professionals", they're getting their resumes polished up right now for causing this disaster. You're not doing your credibilty any good by impersonating them.
Nonsense. Yes, there is a gap, but disabled riders have been able to get aboard well enough.
You mean the five or six wheelchair riders (no exaggeration) that I've seen in almost ten years of commuting?
Perhaps, in the immediate stations themselves, but I think the vast majority of the diesel district of the LIRR is just as accessable to tresspassers as it was before the high level platforms were installed. Actually, all you have to do is walk to the end of the platform at most stations and there is nothing stopping you from entering the tracks. There is not much more fensing now than there was before.
As an aside to this thread, I'm reminded of my sadness at how many of the stations have been removed from the village proper. "Deer Park" is a misnomer; it should be called "West Brentwood" or "North Bay Shore". I understand about the parking considerations. Still, look at the Babylon Branch stations in comparison. It's like night and day.
I loved how the Shirley station platform used to extend right up to the William Floyd Parkway. I liked the contrasting transportation options butting up against each other so baldly. It felt cosmopolitan to wait for a train there as the cars and trucks zoomed by a few feet away. The platform seemed like an island of peace.
In fact the acid heads would trip in the bamboo forest next to the tracks and often walk onto the one track bridge ocer a local road
High level platforms are nice but unless the plan was to electrify, they are not cost effective compared to other capitol improvements
The NJT booton line stop I get off has at grade station. It is a non issue that there is no high level platforms
Fast forward to 2003 - the gig is up - the DM's will never amount to anything, and the cars are technological nightmares that bearly work. Now they talk electrification - again, as they have since 1948.
A conductor back in the early 1990's did mention to me that the line may be electrified.
You're a very accomplished Luddite, right down to the misspelled "barely" (bearly). Now if we could just figure out what you really know about trains...
When they promise dual-mode service, spend a lot of money, they better deliver, and it better work pretty well, or they can find some other way to pay their mortgages. They took a big risk with custom-designed equipment, they blew it, now they can blow out of town as well.
No more excuses.
They already have delivered, albeit late. I don't like that part, but as long as service continues to improve and the manufacturer pays for repairs, I'm OK with the situation.
"No more excuses"
I'm still waiting to hear yours. :0)
BTW, did you write to LIRR about this, or are you too chicken to put your thoughts anywhere but Subtalk?
Really? Better than before? From what I have seen and heard about the DM/DE30 order is that it has been a total disater, with nothing but problems, which they are still trying to rectify to this day, after 4 years in service. Why they did not go with proven engines and went for this custom lemon is beyond me. As for better than before, what I seem to see is shorter trains than before, and the DM/DE30's can't handle much more than they pull.
I of course agree that the GP38's, MP15's and the F's time here was done, and they had to be replaced, but it seems that aside from better comfort for the commuters (which considering what the old trains looked like, anything would have been an improvement), physically, I don't think the old engines were all that bad considering all the problems and DM/DE30's have. Not to mention that a single DE30 can't pull more than 6 cars.
What amazes me is that they went with these custom trains and engines, which turned out to be total lemons, which could not use exising stations (the majority of the diesel stations were low level platforms) Yes, I agree many of the stations "look" better than they did before, but functionally, A LOT was lost. Bellport, Amagansett, amongs others that were at one time able to handle 14 car Montauk trains, can now handle a big TWO cars. How is that an improvement? ADA could have been met with a one door platform errected at a fraction of the cost. I agree with PEter, I can count the times I have seen a wheel chair person use the train, and their needs could have been met at a fraction of the cost with a platform.
And you, of course, would have predicted that the DM30's would fail before they were ordered. Just like you would have predicted Kawasaki's R142A's would fail, and every other car type introduced since the 1980's, right?
Did you notice that the new cars are double-deckers? What does that mean? Does that mean each car carries more, or fewer passengers, than the old coaches? Did you notice that the new cars have climate control systems? Does that mean more or less passenger comfort than previous trains?
Did you notice how passengers have reacted to the new trains? Do they really give a crap as to how many cars a DM30 can haul? You see to care, but you haven't shown how your solution actually helps the averaghe passenger any more than the LIRR's solution does.
You like long trains. The kind that take longer to clear a switch. The kind that require more rolling stock for the same number of passengers.
"From what I have seen and heard about the DM/DE30 order is that it has been a total disater, with nothing but problems, which they are still trying to rectify to this day, after 4 years in service. Why they did not go with proven engines and went for this custom lemon is beyond me."
Here you have a legitimate gripe. But that is partly mitigated by the warranty: the manufacturer was required to make the fixes. It tied up LIRR manhours dealing with it, and I wouldn't mind hearing about a financial penalty on the manufacturer for this screw-up. And the cars are not a screw-up; they're quite good. I rode in them many times, and, except for wanting a little more leg room sometimes, I thought they were great. Blew the old garbage LIRR used to haul out of the water.
"Bellport, Amagansett, amongs others that were at one time able to handle 14 car Montauk trains, can now handle a big TWO cars."
And, pray tell, how relevant is a 14 car capability at those stations? It sounds like the only "capability" that was lost is your desire to drool at the passing trains. Please accept my sincerist apologies if I don't feel sorry for you.
My gripe is not with the double-deckers cars themselves, just the fact that they didn't build them with the ability to use them with existing stations. Many commuter Railroads have double deckers and low level platforms (such as Metra, San Diego's Coaster, etc).
What does that mean? Does that mean each car carries more, or fewer passengers, than the old coaches?
Yes, of course the double-deckers can handle more passengers per car, but the original argument was whether the DE30's were "just as capable" as the engines they replaced, which apparently they arent.
Did you notice that the new cars have climate control systems? Does that mean more or less passenger comfort than previous trains?
I never said anything about the new trains being bad for commuters, or uncomfortable (in fact I said they were an improvement over the junk they were riding in). Again, my gripe was with the fact they these were custom built trains that were unable to use existing infastructure. I'm sure San Diego's Coaster riders enjoy the same comfort, and they don't need high level platforms.
Did you notice how passengers have reacted to the new trains? Do they really give a crap as to how many cars a DM30 can haul?
Again, I said that anything would have been an improvement over what they were riding in with the old trains, of course they would be happy with them, but they would have been just as happy in a climate controlled double-decker that could have platformed at existing stations that would not have needed millions to rebuild the MAJORITY of existing diesel stations, making some of them 2 car stations in the process.
And the cars are not a screw-up; they're quite good. I rode in them many times, and, except for wanting a little more leg room sometimes, I thought they were great. Blew the old garbage LIRR used to haul out of the water.
Once again, we totally agree here. I never said I didn't like the double deckers, but see my above paragraph.
And, pray tell, how relevant is a 14 car capability at those stations? It sounds like the only "capability" that was lost is your desire to drool at the passing trains.
I never said "longer was better" (gee did I just say that...oh that's right, we are talking about trains). I never knocked the fact that the LIRR was using double-deckers. My gripe was with stations formerly able to handle 14 car trains, now only able to handle 2, shorter than most LIRR consists.
And no the stations mentioned are not terribly relevant, but tell that to a group of passengers destined for Bellport, that boarded the last car of even an 8 car Montauk train at Jamaica, only to find out somewhere in between Patchougue and Bellport that they need to be in one of the first two cars to be able to exit there, and then have to run through at least 4-6 cars up and down steps in the process to try to make it to the 2nd car before the train gets to Bellport. Believe me, I have seen it many times. Whereas before even if they were in the 14th car, they could have exited there.
Again I never said double-decker was no good, or longer was better, my problem is in the actual cars they ordered.
1) You don't like the DM30 locos (I don't like the way they were manufactured - they haul enough cars behind them so that passengers can be properly accommodated, but I agree with you that the amount of rework they needed was excessive. That's a warranty issue).
2) You don't think high platforms are necessary. I like them, and support LIRR's decision to use them.
You are certainly correct about the Coaster's equipment and so on. Howeve, once the high-level platform decision was made, there was no point in buying cars which were designed for low platforms.
Have either of us considered one other possible issue: that the townships wanted LIRR to shorten the consists? (less time thru grade crossings; less visual intrusiveness of stations, wanting to reclaim platform space for something else (I am speculating here).
Incidentally, I have never seen a very long LIRR train. In the late 1980's and early to mid 1990's (before the DM30's happened) all I ever saw for diesel consists was a switcher engine, three cars and a cab control snub-nosed ex-loco. The most cars I ever saw was 6. Did the longer trains never visit the rails west of, say, Huntington or Hicksville?
Perhaps, but I don't know. Speaking of long trains, the babies here on LI really have nothing to complain about! I was stuck for about 10-15 minutes at a grade crossing in California back in January as I waited for a slow moving freight train with enough cars to loose count. Of course I enjoyed every minute of it, but I can see how when the gates go down in most parts of the country, it could mean way more that a fairly quick and short LIRR train.
Incidentally, I have never seen a very long LIRR train. In the late 1980's and early to mid 1990's (before the DM30's happened) all I ever saw for diesel consists was a switcher engine, three cars and a cab control snub-nosed ex-loco. The most cars I ever saw was 6. Did the longer trains never visit the rails west of, say, Huntington or Hicksville?
Long (10-14 car) trains ran mostly on the Montauk Branch. They were very common, and especially in the summer. They usually had two GP38-2's on the front and nothing on the back (giving a great "rear" railfan window). The engines would switch ends at Montauk, and of course run on the opposite end for the westward returns.
6+ cars were common all year on the Montauk Branch. Port Jefferson also ran more than 6 car trains, I have never seen the length of Montauk trains there. Scoot trains (Babylon-Patchogue/Speonk, or Huntington-PJ) were usually not as long. Most of the long trains were the ones that started at Hunterspoint or Jamaica. Greenport Scoot trains were rarely more than 2 coaches (sometimes the weekend Greenport scoots were parlor cars in the winter). Oyster Bay trains were rarely very long either.
BTW, considering that the DM30's generate at least 3,000 horses each, I assume that their haul limitations are related to Head-End-Power, not pure hauling ability. This is what limits an Amtrak AEM-7 or E60 to no more than eight or nine cars. Of course, the double-deck cars are bigger and heavier than single coaches (but not much more so) so this might have something to do with it too...
For the record, I am unhappy with how the manufacturers approached building the DM30's. But the cars are a hit, work very well, are super-comfortable (I've ridden those trains several times, with never a complaint; they're so quiet you can hardly hear the whistle and there's little or no track noise), and very popular with passengers. Contrary to what the Luddites would like you to believe, those trains are encouraging riders to come back.
If it were up to me, the line would have been all MUs (and the M7s are worthy indeed). But I don't know how electrification compares to buying new diesels. Is it 3 x the cost? 2x the cost? I would say that running an electrified line is cheaper, but I don't know by how much.
LIRR made a great marketing decision, but underestimated the debugging these new locos need.
Lest our good Luddite friends forget, the F-14 Tomcat was the most bug-riddled jet fighter put out in modern times. A lemon at first if there ever was one - engine failures, compressor stalls, problems with missiles and software. Joe V's counterparts in the defense critic business roared with laughter and told about the idiots and the morons who came up with the plane.
It's 25 years later. The F-14B and D became the best carrier-based fighters ever deployed, blowing enemies out of the sky in a manner so that our enemies preferred tangling with Air Force pilots because they knew the odds were a tiny bit better.
The DM30's will ultimately prove themselves, and everyone, including LIRR will learn some lessons.
Have you been licking those hallucinogenic Australian toads or something? The DM30's are total pieces of you-know-what, breaking down constantly (twice in the last six weeks on the evening Greenport shuttle, for example). And they certainly aren't "encouraging riders to come back," seeing that ridership on the diesel lines has been going down the donicker for years, a trend not changed by the new equipment.
I tried, but you had used them all up, down to the stick. Next time, be courteous and leave me some, would you? :0)
"The DM30's are total pieces of you-know-what, breaking down constantly (twice in the last six weeks on the evening Greenport shuttle, for example). "
But Peter, we know there's no pleasing you. The subway sucks eggs, the LIRR is incompetent, the DM30's are pieces of crap, and New Yor itself sucks.
Of course, if you were in charge, it would all be different...:0)
Let's see, anyone who disagrees with Ron or a transit bureaucrat is a Luddite.
I told you the LIRR thinks like a defense contractor, but it is not acceptable, even if it takes 5 - 10 years to work out the bugs. 25 years is far beyond the life-expectancy of an engine, so the example is irrelevant. They could have bought dual-mode Genesis or electrified, and would have none or fewer problems. It is now 2003. Four years is long enough. The Altoona rebuilding will not make them good engines, make them lighter than 300,000 pounds, or be able to pull more than 6 cars. They will merely weld back together what has cracked, and that will take a long time.
Do you know precisely what Altoona will do? Do you work there? Do you have access to the repair plan?
Here is the site if anyone is interested...
http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/20030421/mtr41207.html
At a recent forum organized by the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA, acting LIRR president Jim Dermody said that in addition to building a third track along the railroad’s main line, it was also aiming to electrify the Port Jefferson branch east of Huntington. He said the railroad would need a new yard between Huntington and Smithtown in order to offer the expanded service that electrification would enable. A consultant is looking for sites now, though one in Greenlawn was ruled out a few years ago when the community protested the idea.
According to Newsday, several commuters at the meeting urged capacity improvements on the main line east of Ronkonkoma. The third track project would run between Queens Village and Hicksville, but capacity and service is constrained east of Hicksville, where the line is a single track in places. Some longer-term MTA planning documents have included eastern main line double-tracking as a future system expansion project.
____
Well if anything was to ever happen for the Port Jefferson Line, I wouldn't be here for it =(, but I'm Out of SUNY StonyBrook =)!
I do recall having to wait in station for a eastbound train to clear the track ahead so the west bound train could proceed
Those cattle cars were the worst.
There was a stairway over the single track? I haven't see it, did they tear it down?
Also, most of the time on those cattle cars, the first car remains close. Can you imagine that? Hundreds of people stuffed into 3 cars.
It has to do with geometry... ;-)
John
I don't know my anniversary (Brighton Line). I probably came home from the hospital on the train after I was born.
The only fly in the ointment was the train carried the Brighton's old #1 sign instead of my #4. Some of the middle cars had a 4 on it but not the front one. Well you can't have everything and it was quite a day.
And you were wearing a silly grin the whole time, I'll bet.
wayne
This would prove to all, that it is, in fact, rat infested.
Those rides were some of the all time best subway rides that I ever took.
Your father certainly did create a monster when he took you on the BMT Sea Beach Line. You have ate, slept and drank the Sea Beach Line. I was thinking of you on Sunday when the southbound "W" train was running on your line on its way to Coney Island. It would have been your lucky day, my train running on your line. Next year you'll be a lot happier when the "N" train is out of the Montague St. rathole and running on the Manhattan Bridge.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
My E-Mail is: fperitore@altrionet.com
You lefty, Fred! ;-)
All foaming is to be done at the railfan window.
I can only bow before the Lord and be GRATEFUL that I had some cab time for a portion of a year with the TA ... the FOAMER GLASS was cool and all, but there's *NO* high like having the shiny rail to the right UNDER your nose, and see a motorperson's perspective. Foamers DON'T KNOW that the next automatic or homeball REFLECTS OFF THE SHINE! You don't get that even in a Redbird, unless you catch a glimpse off a curve. :(
Folks in the cab know what I mean - One of the things I thought SO cool when I posted was seeing how the signals are REALLY focused (as well as what MORONS we worked for) ... heh.
So I'm again calling our buddy #4 Sea Beach Fred to task. He loves it when I do.
It's nice to see The Bob and Fred Show back in full swing again.:)
I wish I could do that with my beloved Flushing line...
And of course Fred, you can't help but ignore that draft plan Harry posted some time ago. You'll have your day once the N trods along the bridge again. Now if those R142's make their way to the Flushing soon enough, I'll be on Cloud 9...or 7. :-)
I'm thankful to be old enough to remember when the R-10s ruled on the A with an iron fist and thundered along CPW, blowing past one local stop after another.
"So here's some news: to alleviate the line's lethargy, Pesaturo said MBTA General Manager Michael Mulhern has asked T staff to begin examining whether to close some stops on the Commonwealth Avenue line to make the runs more efficient.
''It's something that a lot of people have suggested for quite some time and it seems this is the right time to look at this issue.''
Any proposed changes would be part of a public hearing process, he said."
You could sign the trains as the B1 and the B9. :-)
Okay, they tried to do this in 1996, and they failed miserably... hopefully history will repeat itself... you take the yellow out of orange, and you're left with red... which is what many passengers will be seeing should these cuts take effect.
When will they learn to leave the Broad-Ridge Spur alone?
If you live i the area, you can help by calling or writing your elected officials. You can contact www.hallwatch.org and find out about setting up a Fax bank to get the word out and recruit others to do the same.
This isn't news, but I saw a set of R-40M on the (W) today. Railfan window equipped !
Bill "Newkirk"
Needless to say, I've never even tried to use them since.
They had to close them when they ran out of toilet paper!
Once upon a time, there were PAY TOILETS, but New York State in its eternal egaltairian wisdom, outlawed the practice, and since maintaining the was very costly, there was little other option other than to CLOSE them.
Now there are options that may be considered.
Without changing the law, the MTA *could* lease out space to vendors such as McDonalds, Donut Hole, or other such concerns. The law does reqire them to provide facilities, and NYCT *could* require them to maintain the facilities open to all as a part of their lease requirements.
Now if we could change the law, It would not be out of line to require a token.... ah er.. a SWIPE to enter and wipe. With a Metrocard it could collect say $1.00 to use the potty. That would pay for its maintenance. Perhaps the MTA might contract station management to a contractor who would erect a station, maintaing the facilites, providing security, and amenities such as news stand and other vendors.
So XYZ Company might buy the mezanines along say queens Blvd, and would divide and rent out space to the shops and etc, provide security, and station information, and cleaning etc.
Elias
As for the idea of leasing space in subway station sto reatial establishments. This is an area where the MTA has failed the public. There are plenty of high volume stations that could support retain operations. Requuiring the retailer to maintain certain facilities is not uncommon. An example is the bathrooms at union square park maintianed by the Luna Park Resturant
As you know, one of the options for the lower Second Avenue Subway was connecting into the Nassau Loop (cheaper) or going down Water Street as originally planned. I favored the Nassau Loop, as did many (but not all) on this board.
The 1968 plan was for Water Street. In fact, special zoning was passed giving the subsequently built buildings on Water Street FAR bonuses (bigger buildings) in exchange for producing subway mezzanines. If you go to 55 Water Street, you can see such a mezzanine, built and ready for a subway station to connect to it.
I just read that Mayor Bloomberg and Chairman Kalikow are hosting Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, who is head of the Congressional Committee in charge of transportation dollars, to lobby for New York projects.
55 Water Street is OWNED BY THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEE RETIREMENT FUND OF THE STATE OF ALABAMA! It is also stuffed with asbestos, and has the potential to become worthless in a diminshed Downtown. Or worth a great deal if it is rehabbed and a new subway goes right to it.
AHA! I hope my cynicism is correct, the MTA knows who owns the building, and this will come up in the meeting with Bloombergy and Shelby!
Mark
question
a subway project because it didn't take your pet routing?
would cost more than it needs to due to questionable politics.
I've got no personal attachment to a Nassau routing. In fact, there are a number of things that I like about the Water routing. But one of the first things that struck me as odd when reading the SDEIS was that justification for preferring Water over Nassau was missing.
In combination with the allegations of corruption, I think that this provides a very good incentive for people to take a look at how the MTA and its puppeteers do business.
Mark
I'm happy to hear you say that. I might even take back my last post...
Tilting at windmills, are we?
The "questionable" politics involves interests that want the subway to go by their buildings and even went to the trouble to prepare those buildings.
That's not "questionable" politics - that's making a route more marketable by adding pluses to it. And if a business then wants to fill a building full of people (employees, customers) based on anticipation that the subway will go there, that's GOOD.
Is it all perfectly clean? No. But "politics"
is a part of how business gets done in a democracy. It isn't perfect, but would you rather a dictator decides how the subwaywould run?
There is such a thing as healthy scrutiny, and then there such a thing as stupidity...
I noted who owned it when I went to donate blood there, must have been about a 18 months ago. They had a plaque on the wall announcing the owner. It could have been sold since then. Then again, I doubt much Downtown has changed hands since 9/11.
55 Water Street is OWNED BY THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEE RETIREMENT FUND OF THE STATE OF ALABAMA! It is also stuffed with asbestos, and has the potential to become worthless in a diminshed Downtown. Or worth a great deal if it is rehabbed and a new subway goes right to it."
Sounds like a great way to make sure a lot of politically connected people support the full-length subway.
"AHA! I hope my cynicism is correct, the MTA knows who owns the building, and this will come up in the meeting with Bloombergy and Shelby!"
Screw your cynicism. This is great news! The Nassau Loop may be cheaper, but if you have to sacrifice political support and cause a rift to use it, it isn't worth squat. So get off your sanctimonious high horse (before Bloomberg tells the MTA to knock you off the horse - and I hope he does) and look at what's important here. A Water Street subway with mezzanines in the buildings is very nice (all subways should be able to deliver you straight into a building when it's cold and raining - it's brilliant!) and far better than no subway at all.
It's perfectly OK to point out the advantages of the Nassau Loop - but I think it's time to move on now, don't you? You want to participate in building the subway, not trying to cancel it because you were politically tone-deaf (remember the fuss you made about the Rutgers diversion?)
You misinterpreted. I agree it is great news, and in this case I'm hoping I'm right to be cynical, that the MTA was aware of this, and that the Senator will be made aware of it. The bad news is if they are not aware of this, and it doesn't come up.
Maybe I'm turning into a latter day Robert Mosees, but if that's what it takes to get something done for a change, well...
Arti
No, pork isn't fair. But the choice between the two alignments is close enough to be reasonably determined by something like that.
You have two routes. The first is cheaper with better connections, but would limit the future expansion of J/M/Z service through to Lower Manhattan. The second would not constrain other lines and would make a new tunnel to the LIRR possible, but would have less good connections and would be more expensive. Moreover, the second route has properities in place for stations under a prior plan.
The Water Street route would make the RPA happy, although the RPA argued for a connection to the Nassau Line too. If the State of Alabama still has that building, and if its Senator would decide our fate, I'd say that's a reasonable consideration. I hope it's the case, and they are aware of it.
If it's 1% or so, even an Alabaman isn't going to allocate $8 billion of federal funds to increase its value. But if it's 5% or 10%, then maybe there's hope it'll have an effect.
It's likely that the percentage is very small. An institutional investor like the Alabama pension plan is required to invest its assets in a conservative manner. Putting a significant percentage of its assets into a single real estate invesmtment would be akin to putting too many eggs in one basket.
(It's likely that the percentage is very small. An institutional investor like the Alabama pension plan is required to invest its assets in a conservative manner. Putting a significant percentage of its assets into a single real estate invesmtment would be akin to
putting too many eggs in one basket.)
Any help we can get should be brought up as an argument. My main argument continues to be the huge federal, state and local taxes those on the East Side pay, and the crappy quality of life the government provides with the Lex line.
And, as I've said I'll be surprised and happy if we get ESA and the Stubway. I'll be outraged by not surprised if they get ESA and we do not get the Stubway. I'll be shocked if the full length SAS is built.
I know there used to be a street-level stairway leading down from Water Street into the basement shopping concourse of 55 Water. This stairway (and, presumably, whatever public access was left to the shopping concourse) was eliminated in the last couple of years when they renovated the Vietnam Memorial plaza. Since the public doesn't seem to be allowed in the building's street-level lobby either, I'm not sure how a future subway station could be accessed from the street.
There still is a lower level down there, where stairways are available to go up to the street. That is the zoning bonus concourse -- think of the Citibank building at 63rd Street. The station was to connect into there. I'd imagine some other buildings on Water Street also have provisions for exits.
If you look at a zoning map, you can see where the special zoning areas are, and where the entrances and exits to stations were supposed to be.
The basement was public access: MHT had a recruitment center there, and there was also a passageway under what is now Vietnam Veteran’s Plaza to 4 New York Plaza, which was all MHT where the cafeteria was in the basement).
I would be surprised to hear that the ground level access has been closed off, as there was a moderate amount of retail activity there: a travel agent and a (pretty good) deli come to mind as the principal occupants.
The big waste of space in the building was a 1st floor outdoor terrace/plaza that was never used. An expensive, but not really very good restaurant faced onto it.
Memories from the 1980s.
John
-Robert King
In 1994 they ran a train of LoVs on the 42nd Street Shuttle.
They will be in the minority, but probably not by a long shot.
You've already missed your chance to ride the R-33 mainlines, and I wouldn't count on the four remaining R-36 mainlines sticking around until June, so all you'll have are the World's Fair R-33 and R-36.
And germ-killing lamps will really help stem the tide of AIDS!
Years ago, doctor offices had little air filter units which were supposed to kill airborne bacteria and virus'....modern units are probably more efficient. What they do is direct the air flow into a mirrored chamber with a high-intensity Ultra Violet light source. There are similar units for water...light exposes water through a glass pipe.
Subway trainsets have improved in HVAC filtration but only to a point.
R142 cars have four filters for each unit (totalling eight.) When you pull out the filters, you learn to be careful not to dump the black dust on the floor or yourself. The duct system leaves little to be desired...collects materiel, especially if a ventilation blower was hooked up in reverse phase. I like the idea of the UV source but it would take quite a bit of retrofit that others would consider an unnecessary expense. There is one hidden hazard to the Car Inspector...high intensity UV light can burn skin and damage your eyes. I suffered with that many years ago servicing high voltage power supplies in tube-type radio transmitters using mercury vapor rectifiers...the bright light would leave me with spots in my vision for several hours. The post was a good one and apprpriate. CI Peter
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000159
I also think that if a new World's Fair is held, it should be about technology and world war, not world peace, since more inventions have come from the neccessities of war than of peace. War is the natural state of man.
And the Afghans celebrating the downfall of the TeleBan.
I suggest you look at the history of eastern Asian nations. The community and its survival is held to be important. The individual, while not unimportant,is subordinate and even expendable in the protection of the community.
The Unisphere might look a little out of place if it were to be retained.
And they have a monorail, like Brockaway, Orgenville, North Haverbrook and Springfield used to.
The erythrornithophilia of some people clouds their judgement.
The explanation for your predicament is that either you were on acid, or you're making it up. Either way, it's messed up.
There is no such thing as ghosts?
If I found a website which detailed children's experiences with the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, would you then believe that website?
Do you wait every Christmas for Santa to bring you a gift? Are you said that you lost all 24 of your baby teeth already and have nothing for the Tooth Fairy?
Sound insulting enough?
Until the Acropolis was replaced, it was a symbol of Athenian SHAME for having their grand temples destroyed by the Persians. We should not build a monument to the triumph of terrorists in the center of New York. As long as that hole is there, it will stand as a symbol of American DEFEAT. America is not built on the spirit of defeat and sorrow. All monuments should be built to triumph. The only triumph on September 11 was that of the terrorists.
Sounds like you know alot about this. Now, r u really sure you nothin to do this? MMMM! Piggy Wiggy!
That's nice, except the "hallowed ground" beneath the towers has already been excavated and sent to Staten Island or New Jersey. Whatever earth replaces it will probably be clean fill trucked in from elsewhere devoid of spirits; what does it matter if it's built on or not?
It's your logic, not mine.
And I might add that your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.
I believe your experience. I wouldn't let these non-believers get you down. They'll become believers, when it happes to them. There are many accounts of people seeing and even hearing departed spirits, they can't all be on drugs, drinking or insane either.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or I would just assume that it is my mind playing tricks on me. Unlikely, since my mind is not one that believes in the supernatural.
If it doesn't exist to science, it doesn't exist.
You must be very lonely.
Why? There are places to interact with people other than some phony-baloney church, or SYNAGOGUE.
Felix the Cat spoke volumes on those Saturday morning cartoons!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes they can. Drug use and insanity are more widespread than people with "visions."
You missed my point, that they weren't abusers of substances or mentally zapped. Just because you don't believe this stuff means it doesn't exist and you have every right to your beliefs and non beliefs.
You just said if you were there and heard the woman's voice you would have thought your mind was playing tricks on you. Mind playing tricks, now who's mental ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be a possibilty but I immediately discounted it because I do not believe in it. If someone else did, then they could conceivably hear things that don't exist.
BTW I'm having pork for Easter dinner tonight ! Happy holidays bro !
Bill "Newkirk"
Any spirits at Branford ? Any sightings of a long departed Conn Co. motorman walking the ROW wondering why those NYC subway cars are running there with trolley poles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope. Forbidden by Rule G.
2000
The fact that you heard something does not prove that Ground Zero is haunted as you failed to discount all of the other possibilities. Instead, your belief system makes you think that you heard spirits.
You take something that's made up and use it to prove something else which is also made up.
Well Well, I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. Piggy Wiggy! I guess you have to invited urself to ground zero sometimes latenight hours and find out for yourselve.
I've been telling Subtalkers that I am a pig, I am in fact a human.
It's a slow day on SubTalk...
Now the Pig is a human? I don't know if I can continue...
Which means what we thought were absolutely brilliant posts (considering the source) were really just ordinary. :-)
Tom
Who cares? More to the point, where is the @$£@@% V Train anyway? It's here so infrequently these days...
I see it all the time when I'm waiting for an F and the V won't do. You may have more difficulty finding one in the UK, though.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Mark
Mark
wayne (who's really a wart hog)
He realized he cannot wait till the end of the month to improve his stats and has to post drek all month long.
Tom
Although it's new to me, you have a lot of experience with it.
: ) Elias
Then people can add others.
Defunct lines:
Subway/EL:
2nd Avenue
3rd Avenue
6th Avenue
9th Avenue
34th Street El
42nd Street El
180th Street Branch of West Farms El
Queensborough Bridge
Brooklyn Bridge
3rd Avenue branch to Bronx Park, Willis Avenue
6th Avenue Branch to 58th
Fulton
Canarsie to waterfront
Broadway Ferry
Myrtle west of B'way
Lexington
5th/3rd
Park Avenue/Old Main Line
original surface ROW of Lutheran Line
Chestnut Street incline
Crescent Street incline
Culver Shuttle
Jamaica El to 168th
Original surface versions of lines to Coney Island (not necessarily their full routes)
Sheepshead Bay Racetrack Branch
PATH: Manhattan Transfer, Park Place
LIRR:
Manhattan Beach
Bay Ridge
Evergreen
Bushwick
Cobble Hill Tunnel
Whitestone
Wading River
Sag Harbor
Manorville-Eastport
Central from Flushing to Floral Park
Mineola-Garden City
West Hempstead-Country Life Press
Central between GC and Bethpage
Babylon Dock
Rockaway
LIRR White Line to Flushing
Flushing and North Shore or New York and Flushing (whichever one is NOT the modern PW line)
Cedarhurst Cutoff
MN/NYC/NYNH&H (may include still active freight alignments):
Harlem line to Chatham
West side line south of 30th Street Yard, including original surface alignment
Harlem River Branch of NH
NY Connecting RR from Hell Gate Bridge to Fresh Pond (active freight)
Oak Point Link (af)
Port Morris Line (under St. Mary's Park, af?)
Putnam Line incl branch to Getty Square (where did it end upstate?)
NJT/predecessor RRs (misafa):
CNJ main west of High Bridge
Lackawanna cutoff
DLW main west of Hackettstown
Original alignments of DLW Boonton, Erie Greenwood Lake and Erie Main Lines
Erie Main west of Port Jervis
NYC West Shore (only the fact of its existence, nothing else)
Erie Terminal at Pavonia/Newport
LVRR (only its existence)
CNJ main to modern-day Liberty State Park.
PRR Upper Bay Bridge from Oak Island to Greenville (af)
SIR: Arlington Branch, AK Bridge to CNJ main, South Beach, Mt. Loretto.
Never built lines that I've heard of:
Second Avenue Subway (IND Second System and MTA Program for Action versions)
IND Second System
MTA Program For Action (except I don't get what that 48th Street circulator was supposed to be)
I never heard of the other branches you've mentioned though.
there was trackage going to camp upton years ago when the lirr use to transport troops
and the tracks for pligram state hospital which was north of the main line near pine aire station . this all is going back quite awhile ago
I happen to see the credmore and pligram state trackage when going out to sufolk county when i was dating my wife.
The tracks still run into Brookhaven National Laboratory, which now occupies the Camp Upton site. I'm not sure how much they're still used for freight, if indeed they're still used at all.
and the tracks for pligram state hospital which was north of the main line near pine aire station
The tracks still exist for some distance north of the main line. NY&A freights use them as sidings.
JV
Kings County Central (one season) from Prospect Park via an easterly semi-circular route to connect to the Manhattan Beach.
Boynton Bicycle
Sea Beach line branch to Brighton Beach vicinity
Sea Gate branch of the Culver
Brighton's Sheepshead Bay Racetrack branch
Sea Beach to 65th/3rd and earlier to Bay Ridge dock
On LIRR, Rosedale to connection to Rockaways
A note about the LIRR to "Babylon Dock." Apparently this was a bit of hyperbole on the part of the Central RR of LI. Though their station was a good 1/2 mile or more closer to the dock than the South Side Line (current station) it is still a hefty walk to the still-existing Babylon Dock. "Connection (by street railway or carriages) to Babylon Dock" would have been more accurate.
You also seem to be including Bay Ridge and Bushwick to abandoned LIRR lines. Bay Ridge is still a LIRR line, only leased to the NY&A, and Bushwick is still with us, though it hasn't gone to the Brooklyn waterfront in many decades.
It still exists? Where and to what extent?
What were the routes of these other two lines to Flushing? Is anything left?
Kaaterskill Railroad.
Catskill and Tannersville Railroad.
Otis Elevating Railway.
Explain them.
Some were merged into the Ulster and Delaware (which I also didn't see on your list and still exists in a small part as 2 tourist lines). All are now gone, though some vestiges remain.
Google would give you lots of info if you are interested.
Larry, RedbirdR33
JV
<IMG SRC="address"> ?
You replace < with < and > with >
When you do this, do NOT preview. If you must preview, then when you see the preview, go BACK and click Post Message from the post form.
There is a "Post Message" button above the preview page.
(IMG SRC="http://www.mysite.com/images/mypic.jpg") substituting the angles for the parens.
works, nice doesn't it. Look at my source code to see the true location of the image.
: ) Elias
{a href="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5027.jpg"}this.{/a}
It looks to me that you were missing a "/" mark after the .org but I could be wrong on that, not being sure how the cgi code was operating.
Elias
{img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5027.jpg"}
Like this: <img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5027.jpg">
:>- Elias
I’m also experimenting, so let’s see if it works!
Question self-answered!
the IMG SRC command? Why should it make a difference at SubTalk? The code is client side.
John
<a href="www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/rr.html">Click here</a>
*By the way, you probably noticed my bad html. I forgot to put the http:// after the equal sign!!!
I heard a rumor that there is going to be a new line pick on the Q,W,N,R. Due to a ruling that if the TA takes cops off the OPTO train they have to put C/R's back on, which affects N OPTO operation. Is there any info on this or is this just scuttlebutt?. Perhaps we can get off the Iraq war subject & get to direct business.
Thanx!! "
This was an email from a friend of mine who works here in the TA. Does anyone know the truth about this issue here.....is there any truth to this at all or what? Please let me know!!
Stop right there:
1. I've never seen a cop on any of the OPTO "G" trains I've ridden.
2. Transit does not control subway policing - the Mayor and Police Commissioner do. CITY police are deployed as the CITY sees fit.
Must confess though, yours is the best version I've heard of it.
:-) Andrew
The Contracts 1 and 2 IRTs and all IND lines were not Dual Contracts, as were any sections of elevated track that pre-existed them. The Dual Contracts refer only to specific lines built in the 1910's and 1920's with city money both for the IRT and BMT.
:-) Andrew
Toronto subway is also non standard, believe 4 feet, 11 inches.
Any Boston experts out there? I know that the three heavy rail lines - Blue, Red, Orange - all have unique car clearances. The Red is similar to IND/BMT, while the Orange appears to be a bit narrower, and the the Blue is the narrowest. But do all three have the same track gauge, and is it standard US gauge?
Any Boston experts out there? I know that the three heavy rail lines - Blue, Red, Orange - all have unique car clearances. The Red is similar to IND/BMT, while the Orange appears to be a bit narrower, and the the Blue is the narrowest. But do all three have the same track gauge, and is it standard US gauge?
All Boston rail operations are standard guage. Though I am not sure about the people-mover at the Mystic Transportation center.
Philly: Market-Franford is 5'2 1/4"the same as the City Division Streetcars. Broad Street is standard guage as is the Norristown Line.
The Media and Sharon Hill Lines are 5'2 1/4"
Larry, RedbirdR33
:-) Andrew
I know this was 80 years ago, but did you have to remind me of what happened to wooden el cars 913 and 919? I just hope that the cars were empty. (Look at the bottom of the linked page to see what I am talking about.
I assume you are refering to this accident:
I only have heard about it here on a recent post
James: In both cases there was some damage to the wooden edging on the platform. In one of the cases a signal was knocked down.
Larry, RedbirdR33
:-) Andrew
That is why the R-39 was going to be used both on the Third Avenue el and on the Myrtle Avenue el, until the canceled the order and tore the lines down.
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
Bill "Newkirk"
As long as GZ ghosts are on the board, does anybody know their fate? Many contaminated vehicles from the site were destroyed, but FDNY apparatus was restored and returned to service where possible. Did PATH restore their cars?
For those who may have forgotten, or are curious, I have the seven car numbers, obtained through reliable sources within this community as follows:
PA-3 745
PA-3 750
PA-1 160
PA-1 143
PA-1 139
PA-2 612
PA-4 845
Of these, 160 and 845 are certified destroyed. 612 may also have been destroyed as well. 745, 750 and 143 emerged intact. 139 I am not sure of. I saw pictures of it in the ruins, but am not sure the extent of the damage beyond broken windows.
I do not know what the ultimate disposition of these cars was.
wayne
Jimmy
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't know what the plans are, but from what I read, all the cars are retired. None will return to service ever.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
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name the subway car that was in the 1939 world,s fair,and ended their
careers in the 3rd av el.
til next time
IRT LO voltage
til next time
(60x10)/(51x9) = 1.307.
30.7%
Computing net square feet isn't number crunching; it's painstaking measurement of unusable nooks and crannies. If anyone wants to do that, I'd sure love to hear the results, but I don't think that was the gist of the question.
To be complete, "AIM" should specify an error range (+/- x% in the estimate).
Hence a B division train cassies 22.22% more people
I'd be interested in hearing them if you have them.
I assume the 180 and 220 you quoted were so-called "crush load", which is more than "100%".
But correct me if I'm wrong.
I have a suspicion (no facts) that the 11-12% higher crush load of a train of 60' cars relative to a train of 75' cars is one of the reasons NYCT prefers 60' cars.
My ratio was square footage. That's why for a single car the ratio is (60x10)/(51x9).
Therefore B div cars have 30% more gross square footage than A.
Arti
Ah, but you could get 2/3 of the benefit (a 20% increase in capacity rather than a 30% increase) by just lengthening the IRT stations to 12 cars (612') without widening the tunnels.
That would be far cheaper, though still horribly expensive. I have no idea how expensive, but I suspect GCT would be a killer because the 4/5/6 station, and the curves immediately to the south and north of the platforms, are built under buildings.
30.7%
That assumes lengthening all stations to BMT lengths as well as shaving back the platforms and tunnels, which at Union Sq and Grand Central on the Lex would be very fun.
Without the lengthening, the following would fit on an IRT platform:
Main Line (510')
60'x8=480'
67'x7=469'
75'x6=450'
Flushing (561')
60'x9=540'
67'x8=536'
75'x7=525'
Therefore the widening alone would represent the following increase in capacity:
(60x10x8)/(51x9x10)=1.05
5%
Or on the Flushing Line
(60x10x9)/(51x9x11)=1.070
7.0%
But it was worthy of discussion.
Interesting academic question, perhaps, but for the billions that it would cost you'd be better off making a down payment on new service, rather than expanding an existing line so that more people could stand.
Plus, an old service's renovation rarely delivers the kind of functionality you can get in a new service. This is not to say that old subway lines shouldn't be upgraded.
For the peak hour (17:00-18:00) the numbers were as follows:
#1 and #9 leaving 59th Street northbound: 12571 passengers in 140 cars,
#2 and #3 leaving 42nd Street northbound: 17370 passengers in 191 cars,
#2 and #3 southbound leaving Wall St: 10594 passengers in 162 cars,
#4 and #5 leaving 59th Street northbound: 21898 passengers in 180 cars,
#4 and #5 southbound to Brooklyn: 13825 passengers in 230 cars,
#6 leaving 59th Street northbound: 16699 passengers in 120 cars,
#7 to Flushing leaving Grand Central: 16232 passengers in 220 cars.
Based on scheduled frequencies quoted by the Straphangers Campaign, the numbers of cars per hour should be:
#1 and #9: a ten-car train per 4 mins = 150 cars,
#2: a ten-car train per 6 mins = 100 cars,
#3: an eight-car train per 6 mins = 80 cars,
#4: a ten-car train per 4 mins = 150 cars,
#5: a ten-car train per 5 mins = 120 cars,
#6: a ten-car train per 3 mins = 200 cars,
#7: an eleven-car train per 3 mins = 220 cars.
On this basis there would be 90 more northbound #4 and #5 cars per hour and 80 more northbound #6 cars per hour than were counted.
Also, according to the "Queens Cordon Counts" (http://ntl.bts.gov/DOCS/queen.html), the #7 carried 35420 passengers in 297 cars westbound into Grand Central in the morning peak hour from 8 to 9 AM (1989 figures). That's 77 more cars and double the number of passengers shown in the posting for the evening peak hour in 1996!
These are surprisingly large differences.
Are the cordon counts correct, or did the cordon counters lose count?
wayne
You can see the map you're referring to on Joe Brennan's Chambers Street page.
That would have provided some surreal routings!
M - Metropolitan Avenue - Astoria - via Broadway and Broadway.
That's not really too surreal (as if anything could be "too" surreal).
Actually, the last Board of Transportation/early Transit Authority Chrystie Street/Second Avenue likely routings included a 'BB' running from 168th Street (Washington Heights) to 168th Street (Jamaica).
There have been other odd routes--the old 'hairpin' (my term) 'E,' running Queens-Manhattan-Brooklyn-Queens and Franklin-Nassau, for example.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Broadway/Broadway local from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center via bridge and tunnel.
Do you mean from Jamaica Center via Jamaica Avenue and Broadway (Brooklyn), the Williamsburg Bridge, Centre Street, the hypothetical Chambers-City Hall connection, Broadway (Manhattan), the 60th (or 63rd) Street Tunnel, Queens Boulevard, Archer Avenue to Jamaica Center?
What causes the confusion is the traditional use of "via bridge and tunnel" (especially for old BMTers) for the Manhattan Bridge and the Montague Street Tunnel.
And what would be 'northbound' or 'southbound,' especially in old BMT drections (northbound to Manhattan, southbound from Manhattan)?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/chambers.html
Agreed it's not likely--just look at the renovations being done at Bowery and Canal St for an indication of what would likely be done. I would rather not employ scarce resources to renovate a platform that hasn't been used in decades, and has no realistic plans of ever being used again. That station is way overbuilt for current or projected needs.
(FYI, PATH is planning to re-open the closed platform at Pavonia. One example of where an unused platform was rehabbed is at Bowling Green, so it wouldn't be unprecedented. But I don't think it s/b done.)
wayn
wayne
...and Essex Street looked like nothing. I wonder what they have planned for Essex St. Currently they have those primitive mosaics (from the rehab in 1989). The original tiles were even more bland than that - just pure white, with no decoration. I hope they bring the Grecian style to the Essex wall platform. I would even go a step further and recommend that they put a track wall up along the Queens platform, and finish that wall in the Grecian design. it sure would improve the appearance of that station. (This may also sound like treason that I would want the "Trolley Station" covered, but I feel Essex could really use the rehab).
Although this may sound like treason, I wouldn't mind seeing CHambers St rehabbed with the same brown/green Grecian tile mosaic used at Canal, Fulton and Broad St.
Interesting idea. Since the only place where the original Chambbers Street is showing is the remaining local platform, maybe they could carefully remove the pink marble and plaques, and use them elsewhere in the station (like the mezzanine), and then redo the platform area like they did at Fulton and Broad to match Canal and Bowery.
wayne
We shall see. Whatever they decide to do (I like your idea also), they have to get rid of that ugly 60's tile where the former local platform has been removed. They either got to copy the tilework on the existing local platform, or copy the design of Bowery/Canal. Whatever they decide it has to be an improvement, and hopefully the original elements of the Chambers Street station will not be lost.
wayne
Maybe he's at the LIRR Nostrand Ave. station waiting for the M-7's !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, it would be even more peaceful if the Caps Lock button was turned off.
-Robert King
-Stef
-Stef
It should also be noted that when the Redbird R-17s initially entered work service in 1988, they had yellow stripes painted on their sides, before being completely repainted.
-Stef
That's good to hear. Can't wait see them in a fresh coat of paint.
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
Jimmy
6688 can't have all the fun by herself...
-Stef
-Stef
Bill "Newkirk"
Question: In the R-46 contract, did the MTA allowed a different design other than the GSI standard?
The rest is history. The Rockwell truck worked its design flaws out at the expense of the TA, public and carbuilder. This, today, is why the TA tests new equipment to failure before signing off on it.
But there was a severe bottleneck at Willts Point & Main Street, all the way back to 111th. Our ride soon came to an abrupt halt just east of 111th, where I noticed some brand-new signals. They have a strange white-purple color with a slight blue tint on the "D" and "S" signs. I tried to get a pic of one of them but every time we got close to one it cleared, and when we finally stopped there were no more to see, just all reds.
Anyway, I assume Main was full or something, because locals were turning at Willets, and every other local was going past on the express track (our track), and was just sitting ther for a while. We had to wait for a couple of trains to leave Main before the local that crossed in front of us finally left, and we pulled into Willets (and sat there, of course). In the meantime, though, I got to witness some very interesting yard moves, including a train of about 15-20 Redbird cars with an R-62A single in the middle of it (is movement of such a monster consist permitted?), not eleven Redbird cars on either side of the '62, blocking the yard lead from all the incoming turning locals (reversed to 111th, laid up, then went into the yard). I also saw some in the yard that were stripped of bulkhead signs and looked pretty beat up. Some truly were red, ALL OVER, including the roof.
One more thing: after observing the 7 for a few days, I notice a severe problem. Trains are running at ONE TO TWO MINUTE HEADWAYS on a two-three track line. The train that is sitting on Track 1 is cleared to leave (and does) before the train coming in to Track 2 is even finished pulling into the station, and as it is pulling out, the yellows for the next incoming train are already clear, and as soon as it is gone, here comes the next one. If the Flushing Line has such high ridership (yes I know there happened to be a Mets game yesterday, but there isn't one everyday), why isn't either a third track in Manhattan, a fourth track in Queens, or at least a turning loop at TSQ installed? I shudder to think what would happen if a train died ANYWHERE, god forbid one should fail on a SWITCH, especially the one at TSQ. This is nuts!
And something DID happen on a train at GC for a couple of minutes, there were almost instantaneously two trains stalled behind it in the Steinway Tunnel! At one point at WP I counted NINE trains (NONE of which were Manhattan-bound) between east of 111th and Main. And that's what I could see, nevermind what else was back at 111 or in/out of the yard or approaching/departing Main that I couldn't see. This may or may not have had something to do with a nasty track fire at 33rd (couldn't have been too bad, we went flying through there at normal speed on the adjacent track).
wayne
Maybe the two who failed were R40M.
wayne
A fine Queens tradition! Ever watch airliners land at La Guardia on a busy afternoon? The passenger jet touched down before the previous one has even left the runway for the taxiway; the next approaching plane is already in sight. And the fact that the runway is only 7,000 feet long and if you don't stop in time you go swimming just adds to the fun.
I understand that the old Hong Kong Airport (Kai Tak International) featured a final approch that had jets zigzagging between buildings to reach the runway. You're sitting in an office tower and watch a DC-10 float by beneath you.
I observed that the probability for evening delays at Main St were always greater on a Friday than any other day. The probability was even greater on the evening preceeding a holiday weekend.
If there's this much exciting action now, I can only imagine how much fun it will be to watch when they build the new leads and the loop track in a couple of years.
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
That means the T/O was doing his job :-)
Do you have to reserve a spot or something, or do you just show up?
Any weekday non-holiday trips? (holiday as the MTA defines it) like this week?
This should be a good one. It's one of Peggy's tours, and this time it's the Eastern Division (my favorite), which should be a lot of fun. As mentioned, we are all meeting at 9:00 next Sunday morning at the McDonald's in Penn Station, by the LIRR's ticket windows. I'm pretty sure I will be able to make it. I went on the one in October of the Brooklyn IRT, and it was interesting (especially because it was the first time I was on the Livonia El in many years). It's fun to finally match the names here with actual faces.
Hope to see some of you SubTalkers there.
Are the people going required to e-mail Peggy first, or can we all just show up? -Nick
True, but it should be okay changing Broadway-Nassau to Fulton to make it a complex name. It's the only stop on the line actually on Fulton Street, so it shouldn't cause too much confusion. It shouldn't be any more confusing than calling Jay Street-Borough Hall, "Jay Street", that line runs under Jay Street there, and they call it "Jay Street". (probably because the back then calling Jay Street, "Myrtle Ave", or "Willoughby Street", or whatever other streets are around there would have been more confusing, as there were so many stations called that back then.
Jay Street is one of those names I just don't get. The F stops twice along Jay Street, once at the Jay Street station and once at the York Street station.
As for Jay Street, it is very odd. They could have simply called it Borough Hall (but that opens it's own can of worms as it really isn't even that close to Borough Hall). I think the IND planners wanted their own "Borough Hall" station, and that was the closest one to it in "their" system. I can't really think of a better name for that station than Jay Street or Borough Hall. It really is at Myrtle or Willoughby Street, but there were many Myrtle Ave stations on both the IND and BMT back then to confuse people, and the IND already had it's own Myrtle-Willoughby St on the Crosstown line.
A Myrtle-Willoughby in Brooklyn Heights wouldn't have been that confusion-wreaking - it's nowhere near the one on the Crosstown Line! Clinton-Washington on the Fulton St Local doesn't seriously get much confusion with the one on the Crosstown and they are much closer.
The streets were cut back, but I meant it in context of why they originally named the station "Jay Street" in the 30's in the first place.
By that argument, why ever fix anything? Every day, there is someone who uses the system for the first time. Making the system more user-friendly is an important priority, and the Fulton St complex is more confusing than just about any other.
Why not? It's good exercise.
A
Granted, I wasn't quite a railfan back then, but I had no idea the A/C station wasn't called Fulton Street until about ten years ago.
I'd find that remarkable, since the station was opened in 1916.
So what was the mane of the station before the 1880's el was rebuilt in 1916?
Chauncey Street.
There was no station at Eastern Parkway. Why is that so difficult to understand?
Why does the Pelham Express operate fast and well on the El portion but not in the tunnels?
wayne
wayne
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete: I lived on the IRT Pelham Line for many years. (Well actually I lived near it but used it to go to work.) The two places were the trains really open up are at St Lawrence Avenue and at Longwood Avenue. There is a grade timer at the Soundview Avenue Station going southbound that almost stops the express dead in its tracks. The grade timers after that at Elder Avenue are because of the upcoming curve at the Westchester Avenue Bridge. Trains posivitely crawl down the ramp into the subway but there is a good reason for this. Since the ramp faces more or less east you have a very bright rising sun in the morning hitting you right in the face and causing a kind of bright-blindness. Then al of a sudden you go underground and are in total darkness. If there was a train or obstruction right inside the portal you could not see it.
Larry, RedbirdR33
If only this type of trip and banner could be arranged for the last of the redbirds.
Also, how bout this idea: go retro for the next subway order and make cars look like the R-32-38. Consider it a "throwback" car;-)
wayne
No, I'd like to see a "throwback" car that resembles an R38.
Also, I would retain the LOC/EXP lights and the rollsigns, except the LOC/EXP lights and rollsigns will be color LEDs.
Well, the very first section of platform going up is on Fred's Sea Beach side, the northern part of the terminal. It's just coincidence, but tell that to Fred !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Another question: which will be done first, the Manny-B NS or the eastern 3/4 of Stillwell? If so then what's the point of 24/7 D service? This will (as I said) cause major congestion if the D goes to Stillwell via West End (or if ANY West End train goes to Stillwell without the West End platforms) unless they're installing yet another redundant switch to allow trains to pass parallel.
If the Q goes down Unca Fred's rathole, it's because the BRIDGE IS OUT! What BETTER time with no tracks on the bridge to send Fred's favorite train across the missing section of track, and down into the East River? Again, and again, and again until there's no SeaBeasts left?
I wonder if Unca Fred's right? Liberal fever got yer brain? Heh. Just had to bust some chops, so's you'd get to know me. Moo.
TRUTH - NEWT GINGRICH is the overlord of Iraqi policy - Watch the Middle East explode ... but hey, back to our RUSH qwap and lies ...
Check it out - when are you going to stop listening to the ministry of truth when they can't even make up halfway decent lies? :(
http://www.truthminers.com/truth/goldstar_mothers.htm
Hillary Clinton Refuses To Meet With Delegation From Gold
Star Mother's Group!
The email message that Hilary Rodham Clinton refused to meet with a delegation from the Gold Star
Mothers. It is quite false. Christian author & speaker Dr. Rich Buhler states the following on his
website, "Truth or Fiction":
The National President of The American Gold Star Mothers, Georgianna Carter-Krell, told
TruthOrFiction.com, however, that the two mothers did not have an appointment with Senator Clinton
and that, it turns out, she wasn't even in her office that day. Carter-Krell said that her office regrets the
misunderstanding and hopes that the negative comments about Hillary Clinton will stop.
The two Gold Star Mothers dropped by Clinton's office on February 27, 2001, but Ms. Clinton was not
in. They were apparently not taken care of properly by the receptionist. Naturally irked, the ladies
made a few comments that formed the basis of the rumor. Gold Star Mother, Shirley Jones said: "It got
blown out of proportion, in a way," Gold Star Mother Shirley Jones said of a flurry of nationwide
carping about New York's junior senator after Jones made a few offhand remarks about her
organization's reception at U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton's Capitol Hill office in February. Jones . . . said she
and another mother were disappointed when they stopped by Clinton's office to lobby for legislation
to provide annuities for Gold Star parents and weren't even given a few moments with a staff member.
She said Clinton's receptionist seemed oblivious to Gold Star Mothers, the Vietnam War and the losses
American families suffered because of it. (SNOPES ARTICLE)
Clinton, upon hearing of the incident, was not only apologetic, but had her staff communicate with
Jones about the legislation.
Unfortunately, instead of checking the rumor out with the people involved, a conservative
e-newspaper, newsmaxx.com, printed a blow-out-of proportion story based on these ladies comments.
Everyone is now trying to undo the damage.
Let's just take one moment to be reasonable as well. Like her or not (which many don't, including
myself), Clinton is a savvy politician. She is not dumb nor is she rude. Rudeness would not have
gotten her where she is today. She wants to be in office and is not dumb enough to turn away voters,
even those with whom she might disagree. Does anyone seriously believe she'd commit such a stupid
deed at this point? Someone obviously hopes so.
I generally don't think much of politicos on EITHER side of the aisle, all a bunch of pander bears. Hillary ain't so bad though, and she's managed to irritate the hell out of the other side of the aisle. In MY book, that's a good thing. Politicos should be kept in a continuous state of agita, just like they do to us. Heh.
#3 West End Jeff
A few got grafitti'd by Ronan's kids in that damned "war between the states" color scheme for the Eastern Division as well. But the Pullman green colored one was the PROPER color, and gold-colored "CITY OF NEW YORK" on the sides made it "mint." :)
In my youth, it was said the olive drab paint on the subways (and on post office boxes and trucks) was the result of great quantities of surplus paint ordered by the U.S. government for the Army during WWI and again in WWII. Anyone know if there was any truth to that?
Tom
I don't know, but it didn't affect them BMT. Their AB's and D's were painted light tan and some had silver roofs. There was a time in the late 50's when some cars were painted a dark green that was not olive drab. Maybe the IRT and IND hoarded all that surplus olive paint !
Bill "Newkirk"
BMT Standards and Triplexes had interior paint jobs of ugly dark olive drab ater the war through the 1940s--I heard in the early 1950s that it was war-surplus paint that the City picked up cheap. With low-wattage incandescent bulbs, the cars were dreary even though,like an ugly child, it was still possible to love them.
I think the BUs, Cs, and Multi-Sections were also painted with that color on the interiors.
Somehow the streetcars and buses escaped the treatment.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Bill "Newkirk"
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I am used to hotels holding your passport when you check in, but a driving school? :-)
Tom
Photo ID is needed to buy a ticket. But try doing that with the ticket vending machine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Same here...I've ridden Amtrak twice this year, and was never asked for an ID when I boarded the train. However, I also bought my ticket on the web, and picked them up with the quicktrak machines. -Nick
Here is a nice depiction of the size of the Paulens Kill arches, use the car for scale.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-Road-Arch.jpg
Here is a view from the viaduct north towards the Viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Water-Gap-View.jpg
Here is a view looking south. The white line is the former L&NE rail line through Blairstown.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-South-Pan-2.jpg
Here is the access manhole to the underside of the bridge.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Manhole.jpg
Here are two views of some cool ice formations that formed from water draining down through the access hatches.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Surreal-Ice-Flow-3.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Surreal-Ice-Flow.jpg
Here is the inside of the verticle piers. Between the point where the arch intersects and the bridge deck the piers are hollow and make wonderful resonance chambers.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Pier-Lookup.jpg
This pier has been flooded, but by late January it had turned to ice. I hope the expansion forces of the ice aren't damaging the bridge. The arch walkway passes through each pier and a pipe bridge had been provided for crossing the flood.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/imagesLAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Ice-Pier-Pool.jpg
Here is a view inside the east abutment
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Abutment-Inside-Left.jpg
Here are some facinating ice formations inside the abutment interrior.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Abutment-Inside-IceMights.jpg
Here is a view along the line of the viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Paralell.jpg
Here is one of the many cool murals that have been painted on the underarch of the bridge.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Mural-1.jpg
this is where I had my senior year high school yearbook picture taken. Note how little doorways have been built into the verticle supports and provide access along the entire length of the viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Gateway-1.jpg
Here is the poured concrete tower at Greendel NJ.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-GREENDEL.jpg
A view looking up. Notice how even the roof is poured concrete.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Lookingup.jpg
Here is a view from the inside. Note the steel level frame support structure.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Inside-Lookingup.jpg
Here is an interrior view of the tower. The hardwood floor and lower wall panneling is very much intact. This is no surprise as it is made from 4 layers of hardwood.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Top-Frame-Hole.jpg
Here is a westbound view from the bay window of the tower. Note the Greendel station. There used to be a poured concrete bridge beyond the station, but it was torn out to ease traffic flow.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-View-From-The-Bay.jpg
Here is the poured concrete station at Blairstown. Note the Train order semaphore mast. This station and the freight station is behind a low fence and looks to be in some state of preservation.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-Blairstown-Station-2.jpg
Thanks for the pics!
Chuck Greene
Good shots.
Question: is the cutoff in service or abandoned? I forget.
Suggestion: When you set up photo pages like this, why not post a warning to the dialup folks in a post preceeding the photo page.
That way the dialup folks could decide whether to view and tie up the bandwith.
Chuck Greene
That's not the big problem with broadband - quite frankly it's worth it. The major problem is the coverage isn't great - there are lots of places where no broadband service is available.
John
As for the 'explorations,' verrry interested in doing it myself or with a group. Did you have to 'tresspass' in order to gain access???
I don't think I would have a problem with Blairstown PD or State Police on a semi-official inspection basis. The neighbors get really pissed about visitors parking on their property and getting trashed....I know someone who restored an 'ancient orchard' full of old apples no longer available and dumped a load of fill closing the roadway. CI Peter
Where did I identify you as a resident of Blairstown?
When the Frelinghuysen milk siding station was rebuilt and used by a local engineering contractor as an office, the locals burned it down.
The what?
Here is a nice depiction of the size of the Paulens Kill arches, use the car for scale.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-Road-Arch.jpg
Here is a view from the viaduct north towards the Viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Water-Gap-View.jpg
Here is a view looking south. The white line is the former L&NE rail line through Blairstown.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-South-Pan-2.jpg
Here is the access manhole to the underside of the bridge.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Manhole.jpg
Here are two views of some cool ice formations that formed from water draining down through the access hatches.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Surreal-Ice-Flow-3.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Surreal-Ice-Flow.jpg
Here is the inside of the verticle piers. Between the point where the arch intersects and the bridge deck the piers are hollow and make wonderful resonance chambers.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Pier-Lookup.jpg
This pier has been flooded, but by late January it had turned to ice. I hope the expansion forces of the ice aren't damaging the bridge. The arch walkway passes through each pier and a pipe bridge had been provided for crossing the flood.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/imagesLAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Ice-Pier-Pool.jpg
Here is a view inside the east abutment
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Abutment-Inside-Left.jpg
Here are some facinating ice formations inside the abutment interrior.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Abutment-Inside-IceMights.jpg
Here is a view along the line of the viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Paralell.jpg
Here is one of the many cool murals that have been painted on the underarch of the bridge.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Mural-1.jpg
this is where I had my senior year high school yearbook picture taken. Note how little doorways have been built into the verticle supports and provide access along the entire length of the viaduct.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-PKV-Gateway-1.jpg
Here is the poured concrete tower at Greendel NJ.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-GREENDEL.jpg
A view looking up. Notice how even the roof is poured concrete.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Lookingup.jpg
Here is a view from the inside. Note the steel level frame support structure.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Inside-Lookingup.jpg
Here is an interrior view of the tower. The hardwood floor and lower wall panneling is very much intact. This is no surprise as it is made from 4 layers of hardwood.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-Top-Frame-Hole.jpg
Here is a westbound view from the bay window of the tower. Note the Greendel station. There used to be a poured concrete bridge beyond the station, but it was torn out to ease traffic flow.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/GREENDEL-View-From-The-Bay.jpg
Here is the poured concrete station at Blairstown. Note the Train order semaphore mast. This station and the freight station is behind a low fence and looks to be in some state of preservation.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAC-Cuttoff-Blairstown-Station-2.jpg
John
---Choo Choo
2am SUNDAY on DISCOVERY CHANNEL.
REPLAY begins in about 90 minutes... brahs!!!
So what did they end up saying? Was it mostly accurate?
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&langId=-1&productId=38203&categoryId=22762&interCategoryId=22637&parent_category_rn=22608&partnumber=687426
Available in both VHS and DVD. If you're to lazy to cut + paste the link, read the description I took there.
Extreme Engineering: Subways in America DVD
#687426
$21.95 Estimated ship date is May-16-2003
Manhattan's skyline may be world famous, but the Big Apple's most impressive engineering feat lies underground. The New York subway became the word's largest mass transit system shortly after it opened in 1890. Today, it carries fully one-third of all mass transit passengers in the United States. But after decades of neglect, New York's once great subway is nearing collapse.
Follow one of the most ambitious public works projects in American history: the complete overhaul of the New York subway. This enormous renovation effort will transform the city's subways and commuter rails into the most technologically advanced mass transit system in the world - that is, if all goes as planned. Join structural engineers as they grapple with the difficulties of updating the transit system while keeping it open to the public. And, watch as city planners work to strike a balance between attracting even more people to the city that never sleeps...and transporting them effectively. 50 minutes.
I do not know if this is what you are looking at or not.
AFIK they have never been used, but they are the basis of my suggestion that the (V) trains run to WTC (Giving 6th Avenue Access to Downtown) and the (E) trains to the Culver Lion via the Rutgers Tunnel, thus giving the Culverites access to 6th or 8th Avenues.
Elias
Arti
Did the Train to the Plane use that routing, or did it switch elsewhere?
Elias
Arti
You are in a place, and this place is called CORRECT. You are IN CORRECT.
When the Houston Street-Essex Street line opened on January 1, 1936, there was no 6th Avenue line, and E trains used the switches to get to East Broadway and eventually later that year to Church Avenue via the Rutgers Tunnel.
After the 6th Avenue Subway opened on December 15, 1940, The E would continue to use the switches to get to Broadway-Lafayette while the other direction of the switches would be used rush hours by the D running to Hudson Terminal, which otherwise terminated at 34th.
On October 24, 1949, the E was rerouted and extended to Broadway-East New York (later Euclid) via the Cranberry Tunnel. The CC was rerouted to Broadway-Lafayette.
Finally on October 30, 1954 the connection to the Culver line opened. The CC was rerouted to Hudson Terminal, the D to Coney Island and the F cut back to B'way-Laf (34th off-peak), the switches would then be discontinued in regular service UNTIL:
September 23, 1978 when the JFK Express was implemented. The JFK Express ran until April 15, 1990.
Does anybody know anything about the 1962 water main break reroutes, the 1988? asbestos flood reroutes and A service in the immediate aftermath of September 11?
No flooding. All service stopped for a while on Sep. 11. Certainly back in operation the morning of Sept. 12. May have gone via Rutgers for a day or so. May have skipped Canal*, Chambers, and Bway-Nassau for another day or 2 once back on it's regular route.
*I took an R at noon on Sep 12 and they had just reopened 8th St but all operating subways were still skipping all stops south of Houston.
I thought the R wasn't running and it was the W that made those stops.
I'm sure you can find all the details in the SubTalk archives.
For a few days after that As skipped Bway-Nassau and Chambers, but BWay-Nassau only because they were having power problems.
What was that? I don't recall ever hearing about it.
Peace,
ANDEE
AMI
-Stef
---Choo Choo.
---Choo Choo
what are you favorite lines/cars
It's a great railfan window for a child and an adult to share, or even for a child alone, since it's tall. It's a terrible railfan window for two adults to share, since it's narrow. (There's also nothing for the second adult to hold onto, but that's the case on everything but the Redbirds.)
The best railfan window I've seen, although I've never seen it in use as a railfan window, is the huge window at the end of the R-68 without the transverse cab. Unfortunately, all but nine R-68's are now in permanent four-car sets with those windows facing inward, so our only hope is for the Franklin shuttle to return to two-person operation and for someone railfan-friendly to turn the cars around. Don't hold your breath, in other words.
And as a kid I loved the R40's window. I only recently realized that the GOHed R42/R40M windows are smaller!
I absolutley hated the circle window on the R16/17. Very kid-UNfriendly.
I only vaguely remember riding at the railfan window of the R16's (probably because I didn't do it often on them because of the "unfriendlyness" of them". I do however remember flipping them open on the R16's as a teenager.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't recognise the bottom one.
My favourite ZPTO car with huge RFW has to be the VAL208 (Lille).
Somewhere I should have some pictures of the ones from Bradley Airport in Hartford (now at the Connecticut Trolley Museum outside Hartford) but they're not handy and I can't find any on the web :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
#3 West End Jeff
Theoretically yes, in reality money is fungible. The Flushing Extension is proposed to built with 100 percent city funds, backed by tax increment financing from new buildings on the West Side -- if they materialize. The SAS is supposed to be built with federal funds and debt.
But the federal government has already committed to ESA, and Pataki has already mortgaged the SAS to the hilt. In short, the city, the state, and the federal government have already committed to other projects first, and then they'll say "oopps we're broke." This is not an accident.
If he's knowledgeable in Visual Basic, he could write some software that automates the process so that he doesn't have to keep entering names. Then the software could also put the results into an Excel spreadsheet.
I think it's the latter because he talked at one point about having to leave his computer alone for over an hour while it crunched information.
Then I needed Word to remove all the stuff that isn't names. Since the file is huge, it took a long time for some things to process, here's what I do:
use Replace to change all " - " with ` (it could be any character that isn't used in any Subtalk name or subject)
Convert text to table using ` as the separator
Cut out the second column (the one with the names) and paste it into Excel.
In Excel, sort, subtotals, and sort again.
Now I do it week by week. Although I usually do not do it every week, I just extract the names from 5 separate files, one for each week and paste them into Excel. I've done April 1-14 so that I could see how the posting was affected by N_Slant_40. I stopped posting these because there were complaints. If you want the compiled data, then e-mail me.
The older track of Route 62 that lay next to Rte. 11 in the Darby loop, by the way are paved over. If you look ahead towards the NE, you can see the tracks of the 62 going into woods.Anyone from Philly, Help!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
IIRC, currently, if you're coming FROM Yeadon Loop, you come down 10th, turn east on Lansdown, are dropped across the street from the depot, and then the car runs light on the 11 line back to the carhouse.
Thanks for the info, guys.
Chuck Greene
Mark
What is unclear if the area will be open around the clock or during the same hours that the booth was operating.
-Stef
According to the plans initially released, R153 will be replaced with 2 HEET's and 1 HXT, which will be open around the clock. Sounds like a good trade to me, if it goes through. OTOH, the "footbridge" can currently be removed at night to allow access between shuttle track 4 and the mainline; but if the entrance is open at night, when can the metal plates be removed? (Will the underpass be reopened? Doubtful.)
If it had not been for the construction, would it be safe to say that it would have closed in July regardless? I don't even recall R-153 being on the closing list, but I'm short a few brain cells, so just bear with me....
As to the issue of it being open around the clock, is that necessary since the shuttle doesn't run all night? Some tourists might wait for a shuttle that isn't coming!
-Stef
In general I'm in favor of having as many access points as possible open around the clock, but you're right that we don't want tourists waiting for the shuttle in the middle of the night. OTOH, in bad weather, it's useful to be able to duck into the nearest entrance, even if it's nowhere near the line one needs. Certainly on Saturday mornings and Sundays, there's no reason for the entrance to be closed.
Exit only Iron Maidens were replaced with HEET's and MVM's and have operated that way for many years.
In addtion as station were renovated and fare control's reconfigured, booths were closed and replaced by HEET's and MVM's
That is why the whole scare tactics campaign by straphangers campaign is so funny.
In most cases the new plan to close booths will increase the access to part time fare controls to 24 hours providing better access and exits to riders.
A WIN WIN FOR RIDERS. A freind of mine told me that straphangers campaign gets money from the TWU. I am not sure if that is true or not,
-Stef
-Stef
Once upon a time, I was a paying customer of the general public. I had this certain perception that selling tokens was easy and that they didn't do anything worthwhile. When I first entered the booth in February of 2001, my perceptions changed. I knew what it was like to work my ass off. Try dealing with a line of people who need cards and tokens, answering questions, counting your money, and doing your paper work all at the same time. It's a lot to do. That's just part of it. Clerks are also under the watchful eye of Management.
When someone comes in here and says I make too much or I'm nothing more than a Cashier at a Supermarket, I have to be vocal and set everything straight. That's just me. When someone says Clerks are greedy and stupid, I think it amounts to nothing more than namecalling, which is unecessary. Clerks aren't robots who spend 8 hours in the booth tallying figures. When the person leaves the booth at the end of the night, they go home to be with their families. They are just as human as everyone else. They are tired, hungry, and have other needs. They settle in for the night, then the same routine starts all over again for the next day. In a high capacity booth, a 30 minute Lunch Break goes by fast. If I'm lucky I get to take a bite and go to the bathroom, but I spend my break gathering tokens, cleaning turnstiles, and bagging my money, then hopefully I have time for everything else. Once the break is over, it's time to serve the Customers again. Hey, I spend 8 hours at a Booth and it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone can do the job, but some of us don't have a choice. We do what we have to survive.
Did you know that on the first day of booths not selling tokens, Clerks got grief from the Customers? They were now being told they had to purhcase a single ride from the MVMs. Some Customers were quite apprehensive about using the machines. Heh, people are still don't understand after a whole week that tokens don't exist! One Clerk had a cup of urine thrown through the booth aperture and onto her money because she told a Customer she couldn't sell him a token. That qualifies as abuse. She didn't do anything to the person, he just didn't get it. We are not punching bags although some folks like to unload on us like we are...
We are in an age where Man is being replaced by Machine. The question is what happens to the man when the Machine does his job for him?
I will give credit where it's due to the Voice of Reason. The Voice Of Reason is quite intelligent and presents a good argument about various issues. However, I do not have to agree with everything this person has to say, and I'm going to let that person know. Maybe it's me, but the arguments always seem to go back to what Clerks should be doing and what they shouldn't (fingerpointing). My view is that while you're entitled to an opinion, that's all it really is. You haven't been in my shoes, so you won't get a full understanding of the situation at hand. Furthermore, Clerks are limited in what they can or can't do.
It is my sincerest hope that I haven't cast myself in a bad light, I'm just very vocal and I have to clear up misconceptions....
Regards,
Stef
P.S. Now it's time to talk about my favorite topic: R-17's Rule!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are 2 sides on this issue. Portions of the public act with totally inappropriate behavior. But it's part of the S/A's job to deal with that. If they can't, they shouldn't be an S/A. And S/As don't have the right to abuse courteous but confused members of the public (as a small number of S/As do) just because some members of the public abuse them.
I must have a lot of patience.....
-Stef
Or as Bert Simpson would put it:
"Don't Have A Cow, Man!"
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I was a bank teller years ago. The rudeness, nastiness and condescension I would get across the counter could be unbelievable (especially from the better-off customers!). I have no doubt that tstation agents get all that and more, especially on a busy day when the turnstiles have a problem and a GO is in effect.
What can I say - keep your chin up. Hang in there. The sun always comes back up tomorrow morning. Live your life to its fullest!
-Stef
I am all for pushing rote work off to machines whenever possible (I want an automatic bathroom-cleaning machine for the home!), and using humans where they genuinely add value: interactions with other humans. So the giving-advice, directing, walking around the station (with a packet of mag-stripe reader cleaner in a pocket!) and seeing that everything is OK portion is what the job becomes. Money handling, which was the bulk of the SA job, can be handled by a dedicated team, as each MVM needs servicing maybe once a day.
However, this means that a certain amount of reeducation and retraining is in order. Did any of this happen?
John
If what I hear is correct, Clerks are in the process of being trained now for their work outside of the Booth. When a booth does close, there should hopefully be a smooth transition for the Clerk.
Regards,
Stef
It's not a question of whether the Station Agents are working. It's a question of whether the reason they are confined to their booths (e.g. to sell fares) is something that needs to be done by workers in this day and age, rather than machines.
David
The it is more effecient to sell metrocards through MVM. The more booths are closed the more likely the MTA will offer automatically refilling subscription metrocard similar to the way ez-pass workes. ID anyone here has ez-pass you know how much it make life easier by not having to worry whether or not you have money for the toll.
Working at the fulfillment center for the subscription cards is much nicer work then being confined to a booth.
The end of the human sale of metrocards would also spur the expansion of the off site sales of metrocards at local stores as people who don't like MVM's and don't want to subscribe go out looking for cards increasing sales in stores and creating jobs.
The lower metrocard sales costs will allow the MTA to keep fares lower and or offer better service.
Further down the line the increasing automation of train control reduces the MTA's cost of running more trains allowing increased service
To make a long story short. Reducing labor cost by improvig effeciencies in the end will create more jobs then it will elliminate. These jobs will end up in being in the private sectors which will bring in added tax revenues for things like education and parks.
Technology allows us to do things faster and cheaper. More frequent service = More riders = possibility of express service on weekends and the west end line = more attractive neighborhoods and a better city for us all.
Due to the time needed to roll out these technologies these upgrades are unlikely to result in any layoffs of current employees
Immagine frequent, fast service both interbourough and to manhattan not just during rush hour but on saturdays and sundays and nights.
Brooklyn, queens and the bronxs residents would enjoy the same level of freedom from there automobile as manhattan residents.
Currently that is not the case
NOT SO, being the spouse of a NYCTA "Mail 'n Ride" Subscriber, the
fulfillment center is not operated by the NYCTA. It is operate
under contract by Chase and is located in Secaucus, NJ. So there
is some negative to job protection with the NYCTA for displaced
employees.
Voice, if you make a statement, please be sure of all facts.
8-)~ Sparky
Even if NYCT farmed fullfillment of metrocard subscription it is not likely that it would require the firing of any current station agents. For one the attrition rate of MTA employees would allow the positions to be elliminated over time and not all at once.
The only folks who would have an issue is the union brass who would have less dollars for them to spens on themselves.
Remember that NYCT planning to start metrocard bank in conjunction with chace. The plan would have allowed metrocards to be used to purchace items at stores, newsstands, parking meeters etc. The union put up a stink when they learned that Chase employees would be handling back end processing for the program. THis included chase managing the 3-party reseller network. This would have resulted in a 2 % surcharge on all metrocard transaction both on transit and out of network and the two parties spliting the proceeds. The end result would be NYCT paying $12 million in fee's per year for the transit end and spoliting the fee money at the end of the year. Transit in house metrocard procesing results in a signoficant cost most likely in excess of $12 ,illion and without the offset of it's share of off site fee money. Fees would also be generated by sales at off site locations such as movies and drugstores. This would likely have been an addtional source of revenue to help starve off the current fare hike.
What happens to those presently employed in Chase's fulfillment center?
Contracting fulfillment out to Chase in NJ is probably far less expensive than using union labor in New York City.
They can be offered positions at the Brooklyn location or other jobs at chase. Jobs move to other locations all the time.
"Contracting fulfillment out to Chase in NJ is probably far less expensive than using union labor in New York City"
Not neccisarily. Except for the lower real estate prices workers in Secaucus get paid the same salary scale is NYC based workers. The Secacus fulfillment center my also do fulfillment for other chase clients.
It is unlikely that many MTA employees would chose to leave the MTA to move over and work for chase. The turnover rate at NYCT and the gradual reduction in tooken booths that will result from the subscription program will allow the MTA to not lay anyone off.
Based on the experience of EZ-PASS and minusing out those who don't have credit card or checking accounts, subscription metrocard would probably have a 25% penatration rate. Not to bad. That is a conservative estimate.
Well, you're not alone on this.
We are in an age where Man is being replaced by Machine. The question is what happens to the man when the Machine does his job for him?
That why in today's world of technology, computers are designed to do all types of man's job. Back in the old days as a cashier, you have those ordinary electronic cash register machine where you punch in numbers of keys to add sales tax to the retailer price to get the merchandise subtotal. Now, With the computers that is armed with the tax calculator software, it only take the enter key to get the subtotal price. What happens when there is a blackout and its unable to have these man to do the job? Well, its back to square one.
Machines have been replacing humans for decades now (remember elevator operators?), yet unemployment has not become catastrophic.
You mean CENTURIES. This goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution, think about how many people people making yarn were replaced by one person operating a water frame. Machines replacing people aren't necessarily computerized.
This is The Brooklyn Bound 4 Express Train, The next stop is Bowling Green.
Stand clear of the closing door, please!
The sound of the R142/R142A Trains with human female and male programmed into PA system.
This is a vary valid point. Computerization is a rather new phonomenon.
There industrial revolution was all about implimenting machinery to do the job more effeciently
It is these effeciencies that allowed the united states to propel to past esablished world powers. It was out quick adoption of thes technologies that made american companies competitive on the world market.
Many of these machines worked under human power reducing the number of people to do a job from 3 to one lowering the cost of products allowing more people to be able to afford to purchace items.
Do a search on the industrial revolution
CBTC/ATO reducing the number of crews on train to one or zero will allow the MTA not to raise the fare and take lower subsudies allowing the price of a ride to remain afodable
Before that mechanical sliding doors n subway cars allowed railroads to add more doors without hiring more door operators. If each door was hand operated, there would be fewer doors on the train
Just as now all train and door controls are human operated. The result fewer trains per hour on some lines and longer then needed trains.
It would cost less to operate 10 4 car train per hour then the current 3 human control trains per hour
If elevators where still required elevator operators. Most apartment building would not have them. People would have to walk up. If they did, they wuld have fewer elevators causing people to wait longer to get where they are going.
Lets look at Automated train control. If NYCT would operate with ZPTO they would be able to run more service in a veriety of patterns.
The MTA could offer more frequent service at all our of the day featuring the correct length train.
Low volume lines suc th e 4th ave and sea beach line could run short frequent trains increasing the attractiveness of riding the train not just to the city but inter-brookly. This will help spur development of both residential and retail along 4th ave as riders don' think twice about jumping on the train to go shoping on weekend. With the current 15 min headway on weakends people think twice about using 4th ave service to go to atlantic center. People with cars in bay ridge would never take the train to atlantic center. They may drive to jersey or Long Island instead because it's more convient. The more freuent subway service will make it attractive to take the subway as manahattanites do creating more jobs.
In fact a new suburban trafic study recommends increasing public transit on weekends and midday to prevent saturday gridlock at the malls and arounds town. The problem is the infrastructure costs. NYC already has the bulk of the infrastucture but squaders it because it has failed to update technology and is very labor intensive
For instance west end supper express would be possible creating "transit villages" further down the line because the MTA could offer fast access to manhattan from downline west end stations such as stillwell terminal
In addition it will allow very frequent non rush hour service. For instance it could offer 3-5 minute service on the sea beach/4th ave corridor with 2-4 car trains. This will attract new riders and development because
Man is the one who programs and controls the machine. Man is the driving force of new inovations that make life better. Technology saves american jobs. If the automakes robotic assemble improvement replace assembly line jobs but created many highe paying computer programing and CAD drawing jobs.
Without the robitic automation on the assembly lines, all auto jobs would have been moved over sea or the price of basic aito like a chevy malibu would be about $50-60k a year.
This automation has also allowed for the reduction of time and cost of bringing a new model to market from 5 years to less the 18 months allowing the public a greater choice of cars
"That why in today's world of technology, computers are designed to do all types of man's job."
Computer software designed by man is designed to handles job that are repetive and man is not well suited for"
"Back in the old days as a cashier, you have those ordinary electronic cash register machine where you punch in numbers of keys to add sales tax to the retailer price to get the merchandise subtotal. Now, With the computers that is armed with the tax calculator software, it only take the enter key to get the subtotal price. What happens when there is a blackout and its unable to have these man to do the job? Well, its back to square one."
The waldbaums by my house had those up until a few years ago. Those old registers allowed cachiers to rob groceries by punching in lower prices for freinds and family.
Scaners speed the checkout line
Allow suppermarkets and store track the sell well giving stores the information to stock items shoppers want.
Store's are now begining to intergrate the registers with the back end inventory computers to allow for stores to better keep track of items in stock and indentify popular items for fast reorder. This allows the stores to keep the right amount of inventory on hand reducing the cost of inventory(stores borrow money to keep inventory in stock) thus allowing them to offer lower prices. The reason walmart can offer lower prices then K-Mart and make a profit while K-Mart's prices are higher and going backrupt is that Walmarts uses it's scanner data to ensure that popular products are in stock that buyers want to buy reducing there inventory expense
TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT, MACHINES DON'T REPLACE MAN, IT FREE'S MAN FROM DOING MUNDANE TASKS BETTER SUITED FOR COMPUTERS SO THAT THEY CAN PURSUE MORE FULFILLING ENDEVORS.
The company I work for, 40% of the workers are on H1-B visas. They include gentlemen and women from india, china, africa, russia. Nice people and friends
Public service unions in NYC fight to keep obsolete job title and resist effeciency improvements, installing technology that would reduce the cities cost of operation. The money wasted on station agents, duplicate positions, avoidable fraud that could be prevented by better digital tracking could be spent on educating out citzens from all races and creed's.
The higher taxes also pushs other private sector jobs out of city. Every unneed public sector position or poor business practice in this city chases 2 private sector jobs away.
Outragious union demands for salary also drove decent paying union manufacturing jobs out of state. The latest union crap occured last month when a defence contractor who recieved government orders to assist the war effort threatend to strike. The employer was already paying nearly twice what he would have to pay down south. Nearly $17 an hour. If they struck the factory and the jobs would have left the city as most of them already have
The technology business imploys more minorities then white american. In fact most well paying jobs in this city are held by suburbanites or people who come to NY from other parts of the country
NYC socialist demacratic party fails to educate New yorkers to obtain the skills to obtain many well paying private sector jobs
-Stef
I never posted in response to VOR's post, but to me it did have a condescending tone like he was trying to say S/As were too lazy to even turn off the lights, without understanding if there were any reason why they weren't turned off. Your response was understandable and I see nothing wrong with it.
If indead the reason for the light being on was due to lazy S/A, then management would have delt with them.
As for S/A attitudes, yes everyone does have to deal with stress but that is no excuse for treating customer poorly. The civil service system is the problem hiring people that don't have the proper demnor to work with the public. Basic customer service training and recording or otherwise monitoring of customer interaction for quility insurance purposes would go a long way to getting the few bad eggs that spoil the dozen.
Since station agents get paid a large premium over what other people in similar title get paid they should be held to a hire standard then other. Many fail this standard .
My dad was called both tristate consumer and Geico for a quote on car insurance week. The Geico representive was better train and was able to communicate the information better. My dad went with Geico because the price was similar. Tri-state mailed us the quote yesterday. It turned out that they were cheaper(2/3 geico's rate) but the customer service rep confused my dad and quoted 1 year instead of the traditional 6 month quote
Look around thwe city bro. Nobody has the proper demeanor to work with anybody. I can not tell you how many times I have been PUSHED out of the way for a seat in the past week. On Friday it was by AN OLD WOMAN! A good number of New Yorkers are rude, and it may reflect in the work force.
Not that I'm saying you're 100% wrong, but if you want the CSS to hire "pleasant people" then you'd have a lot of open jobs in NYC.
I have nothing personal with anyone here. I've always said I've wanted friends, not enemies. The VOR might become a friend of mine someday. One never knows...
-Stef
"someone says Clerks are greedy and stupid,"
If someone is willing to pay me X $ I take it. That has nothing to do with greed
"I just wanted to address for the moment, something that the Voice of Reason had to say with regard to my being touchy on the issue of Station Agents."
Touchy in the sense that you take business issues personal. The position of selling fares is no longer needed. The riding public would be better off if the money spent of Station agents selling fares would be spent on other more important areas such as increasing service. I did not in any way imply that you are less of a man or not a nice person. From your posts you are a bright artriculate guy.
That does not meen that the people who are now handling fare sales are stupid, not capable of doing another job. As you pointed out many station agents hold college degree's
"Some of you might that I sound like I have an attitude problem"
I never once thought you had an attitude problem. I just think that you defend the need of the role of human metrocard and token sales as if someone is making a personal attack against you as a person. It is often hard to look at the issue from all sides when you work in the job role.
" will give credit where it's due to the Voice of Reason. The Voice Of Reason is quite intelligent and presents a good argument about various issues. However, I do not have to agree with everything this person has to say, and I'm going to let that person know"
Stef. Thanks for the kind words. I learn alot from many of your posts as well. This board would be no fun if everyone agree's on every issue. It is through all of us voicing out opinions that we are able to form a accurate view on an issue. The MTA does a poor job of managing the subway system. The fact that they still run full length trains during night and weekend hours with long headways vs shorter more frequent service is clear indication of management bein gout of touch with what is in the best needs of the riding public. I try to point out ways that operation could be improved. My current job in IT project management requires me to gather requirements and look at issue from all angle and customers. If you look on two years of posts(Prior to the shut down my screen name was different) you will notice that I have refined many of my ideas based on input of the many knowledgeable posters.
As for the greif a station agents goes through on a daily basis, it is no more then a check out person at a suppermarket goes though. I can attest to that because I worked that job. And let me tell you It was not for me. I lasted all of 2 days before I moved back to my cushy position packing out frozen foods. Take a few minutes out of your day and stand near in front of the registers the first day of a new sale when the manager fails to add sale items into the scanners computers. It is the end of the token day multiplied by 20
The average suppermarket on the weekends is high volume booth time 2.
I also worked the position of Bank teller. Less stress, better clientel. S/A job in a high volume booth can be more stressful. Plus the union has done a poor job of gaining improvements in the booth working environment.
Part of the reason man creates technology is to find ways to reduce the mundane repetitive tasks and free man to pursue more enlightning endevors. As I mentioned when the whole union contract negotiations about raises and booth closing came up, the union should be pushing for training gaurantee's to higher paying MTA positions for current token booth clerks as a condition to allowing booth closings instead of higher pay as station agents get paid more then other's in the same title. The union seriously droped the ball on this issue in favor of the more sexy GIVE US A RAISE stance.
Higher pay would just increased the cost bennifit equation towards purchacing more MVM's, instaling Monitored CCTV equiptment and creating subscription automatically refiling metrocards for the masses.
Former Mayor koch made an interesting comment on a radio program this morning. The question was why won't the maniciple unions accept the mayors giveback package in exchange for fewer layoffs.(which by the way would match the states current union contract of 37.5 work week instead of 35 hour and 4 weeks vacation instead of 5 - extremely generouse by private sector standards)
His answer was that laydoff workers don't vote in the next union election. They rather the city layoffs workers then make all the union members unhappy and loose there cushy union leadership job.
You do have my respect.
-Stef
America is gained power and propertity through the hard work and quick adoption of technology to lower costs and Improve the lives of our citizens
Contrast that to the socilistic tendancies of most european nations where the refusal to adopt new technology and to part with centuries old tradions has put them at a sever disadvantage to american business.
For instance in parts of europe people take off a few hours for lunch making it difficult to conduct business transactions with other countries.0
It is only now with the uniifed european common market that many of these socialist tendancies are eroding and euorpe is makinf a serious threat to the US on the world stage.
It is the refusal of unions to allow many US manufactures to allow them to reduces the labor intensiveness of many jobs through the use of technology that propeted many manufactures to move operations oversee's. That is why the highly unionized northeast is has few manufacturing jobs then the south where workers where more likly to allow technology and auotmation to improve effeciencies. This led the northeast to have older less modern and effecient factories thus are the first to close when a company needs to reduce capacity and cost
The union leadership selfish stance and/or lack of forsight into the fact that if they make the cost bennifits ratio tilt to much by there demands that manufacturing will move elsewhere and all jobs will be lost.
NYC has many sociaist tendancies especily in it's public sector unions. The MTA being forced to keep Station Agents to sell fares and spend $400 million dollars to boot is insane. It not only drives up the cost of the fare but also drains needed tax dollars away from more worthwhile endevors. Lower taxes = more jobs
NYC construction Unions create a huge disparity in the cost of putting up a building in NYC vs Jersey city.
The result is higher rents for business and home renters. This leads to the demands of other unions for raises to meet increasing costs which leads to higher taxes. In the end the only makign out are the union leadership. The raise obtained by the union is quickly wiped out by higher taxes and living costs
NYC construction union even refused to increase the number of it's memebers or allow members from other cities to work in the city in the boom of the mid to late 1990's further driving up condtruction costs and preventing developement that would have led to more jobs and tax dollars
"Assertions by the intellectual econocratic elite that economics are exempt from codes of morality and civility and that "those who have the gold SHOULD rule" as well as the stupidity of free trade will leave America with NO industrial infrastructure or academic "
Your short sighted thinking is what is holding more city residents of being able to live a better life. Employing unneeded staff on the public payrole harms us all.
You'll never get operpaid morons pulling their own as long as the same businessmen that make the money run the government.
NYT Quote
"Mr. Hanley said Ms. Weingarten appeared serious about wanting to propose real savings, but he said many other union leaders were not serious and preferred layoffs to concessions. Union leaders recognize that their re-election chances are generally jeopardized far more by concessions, which hurt all union members, than by layoffs, which hit only a small percentage)"
Entrire story http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/21/nyregion/21UNIO.html
This is one of the major flaws in the democratic election process. It sometimes leads to leaders who are more interested in saving there hide then helping there constituants
It is one of the breaths of fresh air that Bloomberg brings to the table. He is interested in doing what's in the best interest for the common good more then past mayors. Many local policians are running scared from blomberg using childish attacks to sway public opinion away from the facts at hand. Carl Kruger my local state senator resorted to name calling when I brought up bloombergs name in a recent phone conversation.
Guiliani renewed the 10 year tax abatedment on developement on Si enven though SI did not need this incentive to spur developement anymore. This lead to huge city expenditures on infrastructure and school while recieving very little tax dollars
Dinkins uses a tactic of early retirement and defered pension contributions to close the budget instead of improved productivity putting the expense of these items on Guiliani's and the taxpayers of the cities back
Now if they could only apply the same here, and put the proceeds into mass transit…
(And, yes, I agree, that the Hudson River crossings have tolls which amount to something of the same thing. Can we do the same for the rest?)
John
It highlights an interesting argument that can be made to car drivers: How much is your time really worth? By giving up free access to Manhattan (ie placing tolls o the rest of the bridges), the volume of auto traffic can be reduced, offering dedicated limo riders, car drivers etc a faster ride and more parking. It works in their benefit.
And, of course, more operating subsidies and capital funds for infrastructure maintenance would go to the subway.
But actually, I'd not toll the East River Free Bridges so much as CLOSE THEM!
1) Brooklyn Bridge: Pedestrians and LRVs Only.
2) Manhattan Bridge: Pedestrians, Taxicabs and Busses Only, during Rush Hours.
2b) Manhattan Bridge: Open to trucks with EZPass permits 1000-1500 hours, and 2200-0500 hours.
3) Williamsburg Bridge: Same as Manhattan Bridge
4) Queensboro Bridge: Same as Manhattan Bridge
5) Brooklyn Battery Tunnel; Queens Midtown Tunnel:
5a) 0500-1000 Cars $25.00; Trucks CLOSED
5b) 1000-1500 Cars $10.00; Trucks $50.00
5c) 1500-2200 Cars $10.00; Trucks CLOSED
5d) 2200-0500 No Tolls Collected
6) Lincoln Tunnel; Holland Tunnel:
6a) 0500-0600 Cars $40.00; Trucks CLOSED
6b) 0600-1000 CLOSED - BUSSES ONLY
6c) 1000-1500 Cars $10.00; Trucks $50.00
6d) 1500-2200 (Inbound) Cars $25.00; Trucks CLOSED
6e) 1500-2200 OUTBOUND TRAFFIC = BUSSES ONLY
6f) 2200-0500 No Tolls Collected
7) Geo Wash Bridge: same as above, witout the AM Bus Only restriction.
8) Uptown Bridges are not controled.
9) 58th Street Barrier Line: Southbound Traffic:
9a) 0500-1000 Cars $25.00; Trucks by EZPass Permits
9b) 1000-1500 Cars $10.00; Trucks by EZPass Permits or by $25.00 toll.
9c) 1500-2200 Cars $10.00; Trucks Open
9d) 2200-0500 No Control - Open
All Weekends are per the 1000-1500 schedule.
No On-street parking permited.
Trucking firms form a controling contsortium to allocate street and curbside usage.
Some roadways (ie Broadway) are removed from the street grid, all traffic is baned, free trams and pedestrian walkways are provided.
Elias
I really have no plans to abolish the fares.
However, the Brooklyn and Manhattan LRVs would be fareless, as would my new 34th Street Crosstown Mall. The Idea is that circulation in the CBD should be as fareless as possible. With Broadway closed to traffic, and the street removed from the street grid, it would become an exclusive ROW for an LRV. Removing the parking lanes from the Avenues would make lanes for LRVs to operate on the Avenues, again fare free.
The 34th Street Mall is an interesting idea... The street level is street traffic as now; the next level is an elevated LRV that runs from the Meadowlands (Park-and-Rides) to Sunnyside (Parn-and-Rides), the round trip fare to and from the Park-and-Rides being covered in the parking fee, and with no fare collection in Manhattan; The third level of the mall is a shopping mall stretching from river to river. It is owned by the property owners on either side of the street, and they will construct (at their own expense) access from the mall to their stores. The will also derive the rents from the mall space.
The top-most level of the mall is a promanade for pedestrians.
It could be possible to move everyting up one level and to have a direct traffic connection from the QMT to the LT via this alignment. As an access road, the speed limit would be 25 mph, and it would not be subject to the same federal requirements as an interstate highway. It is just a long straight clover-leaf from Queens to New Jersey.
As for the Subways, the fare remaians the same. Busses in Manhattan (CBD) would be replaced by the free LRVs.
The LRVs I have in mind might be similar to those in Lyon, France:
: ) Elias
It would be much simpler to use the European model. Extremely high fuel taxes used to subsidize public transportation (with rebates for commercial use), making personal driving a luxury denied to 50% of the population, and use of a private vehicle limited to weekend and vacation use for many others.
This would also result in environmental improvements, but would be perceived as a reduction of the standard of living and therefore would be a tough sell politically.
Tom
Yes, fuel taxes are higher than in the rest of Europe, but the money is stolen for other things before it gets anywhere near public transport. It's one of the worst things about the country. Consequently, despite the highest fuel taxes in Europe, only 29% don't drive, rather than the 50% you suggest for the rest of Europe.
Britain: Europe gone wrong.
*the other exception is the VN - Goethals/Outerbridge/Bayonne combination which will cost $13 roundtrip as of 5/1/03. Today, driving from Kings Highway/W. 7 St in Brooklyn to my home in SI (normally 20 minutes) took me slightly over an hour
Nope! LI to Bronx Crossings would be come free, probably also the VNB and outerbridge... The jersey crossing only collect eastbound so we will let you off of the island for free, getting back, oh well....
The object is not to collect more money, but to keep cars out of Manhattan.
It needs work on it... but it is the framework of an idea.
Elias
It’s a hard sell. Once people have bought an automobile, they have paid (as far as they see) the major cost, so the marginal extra each time it’s used doesn’t register. The result is that we are creating more and more blacktop to satisfy ever increasing demand.
I personally, would use public transportation if it took me where I needed to go: I much prefer doing something else while someone is driving me to driving myself. However, I live in Plainsboro and work in Piscataway. The public transportation would be a bus, train, two buses, taking something over two hours each way, so I don’t use it (driving time is about 30 minutes each way, depending on the traffic on Route 18).
Even where there is a bus service, there is resistance to it: Rutgers is (still) suffering a severe parking shortage caused, in part, by students’ antipathy to the campus bus service. Indeed, tickets are regarded as a “study expense” by students. See here for the study. Interestingly, the principal reason the buses are delayed: excessive traffic from students who use their cars rather than the bus!
I hope congestion pricing succeeds, and the principle is widely copied!
Here in central NJ, we have exactly the worst scenario under that metric: sprawl of the worst kind, with McMansions everywhere, and the builders didn’t pay nearly enough infrastructure taxes (electricity, water, sewers, schools) for the load.
BTW: I live in a one-bedroom apartment in one of the complexes along Scudders Mill/Plainsboro road, which has pretty high density housing for this area.
John
BTW: Having played the work at home/work remotely game (I am a computer programmer), I have worked out that it’s still necessary to get face time on a regular basis with management, especially if you have a paranoid/generally mistrusting manager. You build the social aspects of work, which come in really important when raise/bonus times happen!
Telecommuting has been the Next New Thing for at least 20 years. Yet it never has become the Current Thing, in large part for the reasons you mentioned. Probably the best we can hope for is widespread adoption of part-time telecommuting, for example an arrangement in which people work out of their houses two or three days a week and come into work on the other weekdays. That will help somewhat with traffic and congestion.
I doubt that you can point to any specific political decisons (outside of the machanations of Robert Moses... but he was't political as above the fray in support of his own vision of automobiledom)
Mostly there was an out migration from the city to the suburbs for a variety of reasons: Cheaper Housing, GI Bill to purchase housing, the automobile to some extent, (but my parents moved to Long Island *before* they bought a car, and dad would take a bus to the LIRR to get to the city to work).
If you must know, the city demographics began to change *before* WWII, during the depression, when single family brownstones were converted into three and four (or more) family apartment buildings. With the return of prosperity, people began to move to the suburbs, especially as I say, returning GIs. Farms were bought out and developed in a hap-hazard basis that left the local politicos bamboozled. Surely if they had know what was befalling them, they might have taken steps (witness the North Shore of Nassau County) to keep the subdivisions out. Remember, there was and is no local governemnt in any of the villiages of Nassau County.
It is now twenty years since I lived on Long Island, and I wonder what Merrick looks like now?
As far as politicians are concerned, I think that they look out for themselves, to there constituent base as little as they have to, and skrew everybody else. That certainly has not changes since the time of King David, and he only gets singled out because I can't think of any that pre-date him right off hand.!
Work at home is not all it is sometimes cracked up to be. It may be a step backward to the isolation of cottage industries in pre-industrial times. There is a certain value in being able to see your co-workers chained to the oars helping to move the galley forward with you for both the workers and the organization.
Tom
I have thought about the campus parking problem, even in Dickinso North Dakota! Admitedly it *is* much COLDER out here than in sunny Rutgers, but I'd give dorm students a dorm parking permit, good only in the dorm parking lots, but not in the classroom parking lots. (Tow them away a few times and they will not look upon the tickets as part of their school expenses), Faculty and Day Students get commutation tickets good in the various classroom parking lots. The Higher the fee you pay, the closer you get to park. Cheapos park in the 4th lot out, those who can pay more can park closer in.
NOBODY EVERR SAID THE COLLEGE ENVIRONMENT WAS EGALTARIAN!
: ) Elias
Students pay set fees, and there are different parking lots for residents vs commuters. I don’t think residents are allowed to park in any lot other than by their dorms during the day, but that doesn’t stop them from parking where they think they need to be, causing the bus problem. One of the Rutgers campuses is in town, and there is on-street parking not too far away from campus (also abused).
Commuters park in way-away lots (like by the football stadium and basketball arena) and take buses into campus, though there are a significant number of commuters who also park wherever and regard tickets as part of the education price.
Faculty and full-time staff pay a percentage of their salary for a parking permit and get better lots, generally outside where they work. Some lots have special passes and there are reserved parking places for deans and such. RHIP, but a very inefficient use of space, since most of the cars here arrive and are parked all day, as there isn’t too much inter-campus traffic: the faculty make the students come to them rather than vice-versa, which is somewhat inefficient.
I’m part time, so I get a full year’s parking for $24/year! However, I’m usually at work in the evenings and weekends, so I’m competing for the resource at a relatively low-demand time.
John
It also puts the cart afore the horse (IMHO).
The students are PAYING, therefore the faculty is the hireling of the student. Which is why I said that a campus is not egaltarian: it is rather an establishment of the elite!
Egatarian is the principal that all should be able to aspire to join the elite. (Work at it: *That* is your right!)
Elias
Campaign for Real English.
I must work on my homonyms
I must work on my homonyms
I must work on my homonyms…
I wonder if there is any difference in behavior between people who:
1) Buy their cars outright for cash
2) Buy their cars and finance them (make monthly car payments)
3) Lease their cars (monthly lease payments).
People who lease cars may be inclined to drive somewhat less than others because almost all leases have mileage restrictions. I know that's the case with me. The lease on my Rodeo is ending in October and I'm already within a couple thousand miles of the 39,000 limit, and there's a 15-cent penalty for excess mileage. It does cause me to ask myself "Is this trip really worth it?" more and more these days.
I assume that buying this car would not be a great idea (ie the pricing is set so you'll overpay for it). Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
I don't remember what the purchase price is, but if I recall correctly it was a little high for what the vehicle likely would be worth. I might have considered buying the Rodeo, but I got a bit soured on it last November, when it was out of commission for over two weeks thanks to a leaking transmission seal. The part itself cost something like $50, but it took two weeks to get a replacement. Needless to say, the dealer had no loaner vehicles available and the Isuzu warranty did not cover the cost of a rental. It was a very expensive $50 part.
On any auto or other equipment lease the price is higher than purchasing. After all, the leasing company has to buy the vehicle to lease it to you, so they become a middleman and they intend to make some money on the deal. If the vehicle has not retained enough value because of damage or high milage for the leasing company to re-sell it at a profit, they will get the money from end of lease penalties.
Tom
I agree this is true everywhere but Manhattan. Lots of people have cars but do not drive to Manhattan, and congestion pricing could get rid of some of the rest. To get others out of cars, you need lots of mass transit and readily available, affordable rental cars for the places transit doesn't go. Then they won't feel the need to get a car to start with.
This reminds me... why are rental cars so expensive in New York? I read that NY State imposes higher insurance requirements than other places. I agree with everything you write above, yet it's ridiculously expensive to get a rental car in NYC. Wouldn't it be good public policy to make rental cars more affordable so people are more willing to forego car ownership?
On the other hand, if there were a big demand for this would a rental car company have already opened a branch right next to a PATH station (or are there such places? I couldn't find any).
A
Rental cars in Manhattan are very expensive mainly because there's high demand from non-car-owning city residents. There are other factors too, of course, such as expensive city real estate and insurance (though the latter applies elsewhere in the state). But mainly, it's a supply and demand situation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
Do you just need to stop at a connected station complex once, or on each line? Do you get to leave the system to cut over between close-by temrinals?
Anyway, assuming you can leave the system and only need to stop at a complex one time on any line, I came up with this routing:
Start at 42/6
D to 7 Ave
E to 5/53
walk to 57
F to Roosevelt
G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
A to Lefferts
A to 96 Rockaway
A to Far Rockaway
A to Broad Channel or bus/walk to Beach 90
S to Rockaway Park
S to Broad Channel
A to Euclid
C to 168
1 to 242, back to 207
walk to 207 (A)
A to 145
D to 205
Bx16 or Bx34 to Woodlawn
4 to 125
6 to PBP
Bx12 to Pelham Pkwy
5 or walk to Morris Park
5 to Dyre
Bx16 to Nereid Ave
2 to 241
2 to 135
3 to 148
3 to 96
1 to 168
1 to SF
walk to Whitehall
N to Ditmars
N or walk to Astoria Blvd
M60 to 125/Lex
6 to BB
J to Broad
walk to Wall
2 to Flatbush
2 to Franklin
S to Park Place and S/walk back
3 to New Lots
B6 to Rockaway Parkway
L to Union Square
4 to Borough Hall
R to 95
R to 59
N to Stillwell
Q to Atlantic
W to Stilwell
F to 34
B to Grand
walk to Bowery
J to Myrtle
M to Metropolitan
M to Myrtle
J to Jamaica
E to Union Turnpike
F to 179
F to 71 Continental
G/R to Roosevelt
7 to Flushing
7 to Grand Central
S to Times Square
There are a few questionable points, but I'm interested in comments.
A
A
---Choo Choo
Start at 42/6 - 4:00 AM - 0 stops
D to 7 Ave
E to 5/53
walk to 57
F to Roosevelt
G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
A to Rockaway Blvd
A to Lefferts
A to Rockaway Blvd
A to Far Rockaway
A to Broad Channel
S to Rockaway Park
S to Broad Channel
A to Euclid
C to 168
1 to 242, back to 207
walk to 207 (A)
A to 145 - 10:24 AM - 96 stops
D to 205
...
Estimate: 96 stops in 6.4 hrs = 480 stops in 32 hours.
I'll compare with a weekday tomorrow, but right now I need some sleep...
Start at 42/6 - 6:00 AM - 0 stops
D to 7 Ave
E to 5/53
walk to 57
F to Roosevelt
7 to Woodside (LCL)
7 to Courthouse Sq (EXP)
G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
A to Lefferts
A to Rockaway Blvd
A to Far Rockaway
A to Broad Channel
S to Rockaway Park
A/S to Broad Channel
A to Euclid
C to 168
1 to 242
1 to 207
Bus/walk to 207 (A)
A to 145
D to 205
Bus to Woodlawn
4 to 125
6 to 177 (LCL)
6 to Pelham (EXP) - 2:29 PM - 143 stops
...
143 stops in 8.483 hrs = 460 stops in 27.28 hrs (27:18)
+ 1:45 for food/bathroom/rest etc. = 29:03
8 minutes and 2 stops ahead of Sunday plan at same point.
Here's the rest, not calculated yet:
...
Bx12 to Pelham Pkwy
5 to Morris Park
5 to Dyre
Bx16 to Nereid Ave
2 to 241
2 to 135
3 to 148
3 to 96
1 to 168
1 to SF
walk to Whitehall
N to Ditmars
N/W to Astoria Blvd
M60 to 125/Lex
6 to BB
J to Broad - Not even possible on Sunday!
walk to Wall
2 to Flatbush
2/5 to Franklin
S to Park Place
S/walk to Botanic Gdn
3/? to New Lots
B6 to Rockaway Parkway
L to Union Square
4 to Borough Hall
R to 95
R to 59
N to 86 St
B1/B4 to Brighton Bch/Sheepshead Bay
Q to Atlantic
W to Stilwell
F shuttle bus to Av X
F to 34
F/V to Bway-Laf/W 4 St
S to Grand St
walk to Bowery
M to Metropolitan
--time-dependent--
M to Myrtle
J to Jamaica
OR
M to Wyckoff
L to Bway Jct
J to Myrtle
J/Z to Jamaica
------------------
E to Union Turnpike
F to 179
F to 71 Continental
--time-dependent--
R/V to Queens Plz
E to Roosevelt
7 to Flushing (LCL)
7 to Grand Central (LCL)
S to TSQ (?)
OR
R/V to Queens Plz
E to Roosevelt
7 to Junction Blvd (LCL)
7 to Main (EXP)
7 to Grand Central
S to TSQ (?)
OR
V to Bryant Pk
7 to Main (EXP)
7 to GC (LCL)
S to TSQ (?)
OR
R to 42-TSQ
S to Times Square
7 to Main (EXP)
7 to 33rd-Rawson
------------------
1) Does 96 Rockaway mean Rockaway Blvd?
2) Why do you need the last step, S to Times Sq?
Yes. I use Joseph Brennan's map as my main map, and there it's labelled 96 Ave - Rockaway Blvd.
2) Why do you need the last step, S to Times Sq?
It's not necessary based on the original constraints I laid out, but I realized the plan had already covered every line (right now, not the (Q) and <Q&rt; separately, though, since I was originally assuming one would be replaced by the B or D by the time I did this) except the 42 St shuttle, so I figured I could hit them all cheaply.
A
The other three "special" stations I've never been to.
My version of the ultimate train tour includes ALL stations of the following (very expensive proposition):
NYC subway
SIR
PATH
LIRR from Penn to Montauk, back to Jamaica, then out to Greenport.
All 3 Metro-North main lines and their branches in CT.
NJT to Trenton, then all 8 SEPTA lines.
finish off with MF and BS lines in Philly, then head out on PATCO
Whatever money you have left over, blow it on a NJT to Atlantic City and gamble away. Just remember that you need a fare to get back home in NYC.
The rules say you must ride the train and rail lines, not necessary to actually SEE the stations in the process.
It should be an interesting trip, but your estimate of 20 hours is woefully short if you expect to stop at every station (rather than just pass through on an express train) and leave the system to eat regular meals. My guess is that you will not get home less than 36 hours after you start.
Tom
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7204.jpg
Thank you!
Bill "Newkirk"
Also do you know what are the difference between regular TA Diesels and the ones used by SBK?
Thanks Again !
As for the diesels, generically speaking, there's little, if any, difference between NYCT's diesels and SBK's.
David
Thanks
David
No, the welded rail is the running rail and is continous, no rail joints. The contact (third) rail is delivered in sections and is welded section by section. Continous welded rail is absent of the old rail joints.
"Also do you know what are the difference between regular TA Diesels and the ones used by SBK?"
They're basically the same except for paint schemes and diesel numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Paul: Thanks for the kind sentitment. The best of the holiday to you and your family.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Bill "Newkirk"
I tried to paint a bunny on a R142 at the yard today but the security gaurd wasn't too impressed. Made me clean it with a toothbrush.
a "special" in a Kosher deli?
a "25 special" in a luncheonette or diner?
Thanks
-Stef
wayne
The MTA's board is scheduled to meet on Monday, but does not plan to discuss the booth closings, spokesman James Anyansi said. He would not say which booths were slated to be shut down.
"All we're going to do before the board on Monday is ask them to approve us adding gates for handicapped customers at 62 stations," Anyansi told The New York Times in Sunday editions.
The 45 stations that would be affected by the July cuts could include the Fulton Street and Wall Street stations on the No. 4 line, and the 167th Street station on the D line in the Bronx, the New York Post reported Saturday.
The MTA had initially proposed shutting 177 booths. That number was reduced after the authority's plan was met with public opposition.
Arti
Arti
MUCH HARDER.
Riders will adjust. It is not a big deal.
The biggest rider complaint at stations currently running automated for part of the day is that
1)MVM's need to be better maintained. Monitored CCTV that agressivly goes after vandals will improve uptime. A better refilling scedule derived from MVM's that report there status back to HQ will alos significatly increase UPTIME
2)Not enough HEET's available as most of these fare controls have there regualar turnstyles rooped off leaving too few HEETS
3)No access gates. This is being adressed with Autogate's being installed plus these users can request the gate to be open if they have large pakages.
Stef or douce correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the current swing gates at station attended for only MTA maintance personel not the average rider.
Much of the uproar about the booth closing was manufactured by straphaners campaign that planted fear into peoples mind.
The gate is available to whoever needs it.
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, NYCT proposed to the MTA board to close ALL p/t booths above 161st st on the Concourse line, and the N/B only booths at several booths on the WP and Pelham lines. Only the least used booths will actually close while preserving the booths that are full time.
So in essence, only 3 booths on the Concourse Line (out of a total of six) will close, and only three on the WP line (149th st, East Tremont, and Pelham Parkway) will also close. No closures are slated on thew Pelham line because there are no P/T booths on that portion on the #6 line in the Bronx.
It could've been worse, imagine no booths on the N/B plats at Propsect, Simpson, 174th st stations on the WPR line and all local stations on the Pelham line between 3/138 and Hunts Point. That will not happen, and it's a good deal for riders.
Arti
Arti
It's cheaper to occasionally lose a few fares when all the machines in a station go down than to pay agents to duplicate the function of the machines around the clock.
It's also better customer service to tell your customers, "We goofed, so we'll let you ride free" than to tell them, "We goofed, so you have to wait in a long line and you can't use your credit card and you can't buy a Fun Pass or a SingleRide."
It's also better customer service to tell your customers, "We goofed, so we'll let you ride free" than to tell them, "We goofed, so you have to wait in a long line and you can't use your credit card and you can't buy a Fun Pass or a SingleRide."
That is a good idea and bus riders do get free rides when deptot maintance fails to properly maintain metrocard swipes.
But this should be policy not when MVM's are in need of maintance but rather when the HEET swipes are dirty. If this was ever made policy, it may lead to much vandalism and abuse. That is why the need for securtity monitored CCTV is so needed. It will allow police to aprehend those who abuse the policy and otherwise hard the law abiding commuter.
It is far cheaper at many station especially overnights to allow everyone free rides then to staff the booths
Like I mentioned before it is not very hard for the MTA to have these machines report back to a central monitoring location when then need maintance.
If the MTA should have regular scheduled maintance and emergency maintance staff that should respond to a situation within a few hours.
If the booth was closed permenantly, local shops in the shopping center outside the station would stock and premote the sale of metrocards reducing the lines as riders choose to buy metrocard at the stores outside the station.
It also would be a good idea to have a list in station of the nearest store selling metrocards.
Arti
The way to figure out the proper refill and maintance schedule for the MVM's is to use the information about when items run out. And analyze that data to come up with a maintance schedule that reduces costly emergency maintance calls. It is analogous to schedule maintance on subway cars that you perform maintance and replace parts on a scheduled basis when you know based on experience that the part is due to wear out soon instead of waiting for the part to fail and fixing one car at a time
-Stef
Why not put MVM's at every bus stop. Doesent that Idea sound silly. Well many people suggestion that every fare control must have metrocard sales at all times is just as silly. If you wait to the last minute and the MVM's is out of money or otherwise not working. It is the riders fault for not being better prepared
As long as riders know they must have money on there metrocard to enter before decending down the stairs it is no different then a bus rider who needs to ensure that he has exact fare or money on his/her car prior to boarding the bus. In an earlier post I have suggested that the a information sign at station stairwells inform riders of the current status of MVM's before entering the station.
Once again is it really worth $400+ million dollars to have human metrocard sales at each and every fare control and LOCK up areas restricting exit and entrance access when a metrocard sell is not on duty. I think not. $400 million could go a long way to increasing service or better yet spent on capitol improvements that could further reduce cost prroviding long term bennifts of increased service and lower overall cost to rider. Lets not forget the $300 million state and city subsidy is coming out of our pockets also. It is not FREE MONEY
Closing the token booth does not limit the average riders access to the platform. In fact you will find that over time riders will see through the straphangers campaign scare campaign and see the booth closings as no big deal
The people who will be most effected are those who wait to the last minute to buy there fare. In other words those in this world who walk through life unprepared. It is not coincident that unprepared people tend to not do as well in the social laddars of life.
Take a walk over to your local pathmart. The self checkout line is utilized by all, young and old. Even I, Mr. technology savy did not think the self checkout would be such a hit. The average working Joe from all parts of the social spectrum are much more comfortable with technology now then they were 10 years ago. Seniors are not an uncommon sight on the self checkout. With the metrocard sellers gone, more people will try and like the MVM's. Those who do not will either buy there fare at the full time booth or from a local retailer
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
I was there yesterday, Wayne. Everything is ready to go. Just stop service, cut power, ignite the torches and it's a go. A while back where the new section is to be joined, there was some sort of panel box in the way. It's been relocated as I suspected.
Bill "Newkirk"
With a strike threat and various snowstorms postponing the changeover, it has been pushed up to memorial Day weekend. With three days, thats ample enough time to complete this. (L) train service from 14th and 8th should terminate at Broadway Junction. Buses will fill in from the junction to Rockaway Parkway.
Bill "Newkirk"
All I'd like to know is if NYC is receiving royalties, maybe by the production company for allowing for filming?
I stopped and watched for a short period of time. The scene being shot was pretty dull: just a traffic scene in which a bunch of cabs drove down Bway. One of the officers directing traffic said that it was a car chase scene, but I saw no evidence of that. Rather, when the cameras rolled, the only thing that happened was that cabs & other cars drove down Bway beside the el.
I told the officer that it was really dull watching the shooting, and that I could watch cars drive down Bway any day of the week. He laughed. Then I rode away.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What was the H&M fare at its opening and how and when did it change?
When did PATH abandon tokens?
I also have another question: I know that the PA had their own post 1962 token, but the fare wasn't hiked until 1982. Why did they change the token?
Was the fare 30¢ in 1908? Seems unlikely.
ABout half the K cars (and the prior Newark cars) were owned, and had logos for, the PRR, since the line west of Journal Square was considered a joint service. H&M and PRR also shared the trackage, but today the FRA would have a cow.
The same logic would say the Baltimore system has a "permanent connection" since the MTA has an interchange with CSX at Wabash Avenue. Despite the interchange, the subway isn't connected, however the Light Rail is, and has a waiver.
When they talk about extending PATH to EWR, is this the way they assume it would be done? Or, are they talking about building a new ROW?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you borded at Hudson Terninal and were going to Newark, you bought a Joint Service ticket, which was collected by the conductor and a "seat check" was issued. If you didn't have one (you could have gotten on by the 30 cent fare thorough a turnstyle) an additional fare was collected past Journal Square.
For railfaning, the K cars worked the HT-Newark Joint Service. H&M's "black cars worked everything else. The "black cars" did not have headlights, so running in the tubes was neat, running at speed , curves so sharp there were repeater signals at every curve, so the motorman could read the signals.
With the H&M and the Low-V's on the IRT, plus arnnines on the IND and Standards on the BMT, if you were enchanted by gear growl and the sound of air braking, you were in Heaven.
I think the token was done away with around 1970. Was there a fare change around that time, or in New York? Yes, I'm sure another PATH fare raise is due soon to match the TA's; in all fairness, the PA has certainly had unanticipated expenses.
I don't know when they started the Quickcard.
Flashing it on LED signs in stations would be a useful approach to the problem.
I suppose MTA will have conductors reading the announcements too? Hopefully with top of the hour headlines and weather? :)
(1 Built by Kawasaki in 1988, I am found exclusively on the W, but I can make cameo appearences on any BMT Southern Division line.
(2 Built by Bombardier and delivered from 1985-88, I am found on almost every major IRT line in the city.
(3 I am painted kale green. I am oldest of the Redbirds, with some of my relatives dating to 1957. None of them still survive today.
2. R62a
3. R21/22
Just too easy.
R32
2) R62A
3) R33S at Museum???
Wrong, sorry.
3) R17( only green one painted)
The R line is a Southern Division line but it's fleet comes from Jamaica which is IND and you won't see and R68A's on that line anytime soon. Also the W line has used R32, Slant R40, R40M, and R68's in the past, R68A's are not the exclusive fleet assigned to the W line. Fact is when R68A first made their appearance back in 1988, the were assigned to the Bronx D line from 34th st to 205th st.
No, the only equipment on the D back then were pre GOH R-42s and R-40Ms. I know, I rode that crap every day. We did not see any
R-68As 'til after the north side of the bridge reopened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Last I heard it was just one or two trains per day.
Not sure if the original poster was interested in the short (6 car?) platform on the north side of the station, or in how often main line trains stopped at Floral Park.
On a related note, the westbound train (7:40 AM) is actually the 7:28 from East Williston to Penn, making that train the answer to a pair of LIRR oddball trivia questions.
CG
Floral Park, how I miss that place.
wayne
thanks in adv.
wayne
Of which only one remains, and with limited service... Times have changed.
CG
:-) Andrew
There are enough existing and potential places to go to along the Hempstead Branch that could attract increased ridership. For instance, Garden City, or Hempstead Village. Future development trends could be influenced by new connection possibilities. Ten years down the road, I'd bet that the percentage of money spent on retail and business ventures in traditional downtowns will be higher than in shopping malls and box stores. I admit this is a "gut feeling" analysis. It just seems like that's the direction we're headed. And at least here, the tracks are already in service. I also think that's when we'll finally see the north/south LIRR connection be re-established.
Jimmy a.k.a.
" the one with the NJT 'Gilligan' hat".
:)
---Choo Choo
http://www.imagestation.com/search/albums.html?StartRow=1&Type=Albums&MaxRows=10&Criteria=mosholu
This Sony Image Station (FREE) service could enable us to share continuing text and images on specific subjects.
Actually, having seen lots of crappy track, the branch is in better condition than I thought.
That's the (LL) train at the Livonia Ave. station heading to 8th Ave. Manhattan.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I remember those days of incorect, ripped or missing signs. I guess you can call it rollsign roulette !
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
How'd they get mixed up like that?
wayne
I was responding to British James' referring to the area as Brooklyn Heights
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=482481
I was delighted to hear that a Chaldean Church ( very ancient Eastern Rites ) was finally able to celebrate Easter in Baghdad after Husseins fall.
This should be another symbol to show that anti-war people are EVIL and should be used against the next anti-war movement.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=482483
There is now a service called ZipCar Their goal is to make sure people in NY spend more time having sex than looking for parking :-)
f(x)=3x2+4
Limit Test:
lim x => 0 = 4
I was wondering, why instead of the traditional air system are not the brakes held in a default on position by powerful springs and then pushed into release by air pressure. In this case if anything were to happen to the air the brakes would go on and stay on forever. Instead of a handbrake there would exist a hand release that would manually pull back the spring loaded brake calipers.
Anyway, I am sure there is a good reason that this system has not been implimented so I just need someone to explain why.
It's Emergency Brakes 101, SubTalk SubSchool. ALL trainset systems have two braking systems: brake pipe and brake cylinder. Brake pipe continously charges all reserve air tanks in all cars and if broken (leak or disconnected hose) engages BIE applying brake shoes to all wheels. Cars like R9 and Low V have spring loaded brakes....pressure from brake application counteracts springs..zero air applies brakes.
problem is that a minor leak in system applies brakes. Another point is the application and release of Dynamic braking....control of the transition point (15 psi on the #5 wire.) In these systems it is very important that zero pressure means zero braking....ie...coasting...and not braking pneumatically....for the trainset may slow down but NOT to a stop using the traction motors.
R142s use electronic control for dynamic/pneumatic braking. I totally agree about the default....what will happen in the R142 trainset IF all air in all systems is evacuated to atmosphere is spring loaded PARKING BRAKES engage. I'm not going to say that they're up to par for emergency braking when all reserves are empty...theory is cars will BIE first to STOP and then PARKING BRAKE with total loss of air. Remember that a major loss of air pressure in one or two cars can be overcome by the six D4 air compressors and the reserve air tanks trainline....unless the T/O somehow manages to engage propulsion by overide (which I will not discuss.) Freight trains are another matter as they do not have the electric portion controls like NYC subway. Overall, NYC subways are designed to BIE full stop with existing systems under the most adverse conditions. Older trainsets have the option of a hand brake (I've used it during power tests) which must be engaged with full system evacuation while newer trainsets have automatic parking brakes. A little confusing but I hope some of your inquiry has been answered. CI Peter
But as I read your original missive (yeah, like *I'm* one for consistent clear explanations here) I feared that what you'd written had indicated that you didn't NEED to "pump it up" ... and Arnines had REAL CHAINS at the end of that ball-whacker handle. Arnines and their IRT siblings with ME-23's were notorious for going to zero reservoir and escaping over the fence. Heh.
But yeah, if pipe blows, you will get stoppage. If reservoir blows though, might as well start grabbing seat cushions and hope they land under the wheels. That and an industrial size set of rosary beads. :)
What I particularly enjoy about Branford is how the place puts old pros and amateurs on an equal footing. What a wonderful place! Can't wait to be able to get there again. Unfortunately, won't be this month yet either. :(
I'm PROUD to have my own little evil streak of course, it's what makes life entertaining. But getting put out on the street REALLY wasn't in the plans at the time. Silly me actually had visions of RETIRING from TWU. Got better. :)
If your compressor has failed then, after you have made an
application via a brake pipe reduction, you would be unable
to release the brakes. The air for the cylinders comes from
the aux reservoir on each car. The only failure mode of note
is that after a long, long time the air will bleed out of the
cylinders on each car and the brakes will release.
Transit is a different ballgame and there are a lot of systems.
In all of them, loss of compressors or rupture of the main
reservoir pipe or trainline will not cause loss of brakes.
The problems with spring-applied, air-releases brakes are multifold.
They've been tried from time to time over the years. The latest
incarnation is on the R142/142A/143, but that's for the
"Parking Brake", not the service brake. You need a tremendous
spring. Brake cylinder rod force is anywhere from about 1000# for
small truck-mounted cylinders to 10000# for big freight cars.
Springs follow Hooke's law so the braking force becomes very
sensitive to shoe wear and slack adjustment. Springs loose their
constant over time. Springs break.
I was making a blanket statement for all forms of transportation. On big railroads is it very easy to piss away all of your braking air and end up with a runaway. Also, the brake system has standard levels of leakage so a loss of fresh air into the system will also eventually lead to a runaway.
Yes, loss of brakes can happen if the engineer fans the valve
and uses up the air faster than it can be replenished. That's
not a fail-safe issue. It's just operator error, just the same
as if the engineer simply forgot to apply the brakes on a downgrade
and caused a wreck.
How, in your postulate, would spring-applied, air-release brakes
work in a freight train environment with a single trainline hose
and very long trainlines?
Out our was, most rendering is done by the Hebron Used Cattle and Soap Company"
LOL!
Bill "Newkirk"
You'll be delighted to hear that the new steelwork is slowly but surely going up. Even the north end of the new Sea Beach platform is in place. Being that the area has a high water table, it took time to put the proper foundations in place. But, things are moving along. I'm pretty sure the new Stillwell will have a decent Men's room. The old one looked and smelled like Dante's inferno minus the flames !!
Bill "Newkirk"
(Sorry, no interior shots -- I didn't want a mysterious substance to drip on the camera.)
Heh, and not to mention that the memory of that filthy "bathtub" urinal they used to have there is better left far in the deep confines of our subconscious.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/nostalgia2/stillwell.html
wayne
Woodhaven Blvd
Queensboro Plaza
Lex
125 Street
Sutphin Blvd
And finally, Woodhaven Blvd
My favorite is the 2nd to last, the phantom J
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I'm really not *that* happy with them as they're a little grainy from using ISO 400. However it got me that extra light I needed to shoot the underground shots at 1/50 a second shutter speed with no real blurring.
Maybe Wednesday I'll have a little more time to tweak my settings.
Did you see the R-40M W train? I got a few shots of it passing through 39th-Beebe on the middle track. Shortly thereafter, at about 5:15, the GO apparently ended early and an R-68 W train came through on the local track and stopped (and everyone who got off had to climb under the tape -- nobody pulled it down!). The GO was supposed to last until 9, but even at 4 I didn't see any work going on.
Also, did you notice the upside-down destination signs on most J trains? (Essex on top and Jamaica Center on bottom. I guess Essex isn't on the bottom roll. Jamaica Center is, to allow for routings via Christie.)
The J, oddly enough for a Sunday night, had "Jamaica Center" on top and "Broad Street" on the bottom. Apparently no one changed the signs for the GO. Or even for regular weekend service. I got the J around 10:40.
I was waiting around for a 40 on the W but one never came and I had to go.
Here's the photo that didn't come up on the page, I figured I'd post it for you (from view source - you forgot an ">" sign in your code for that one), it's too nice of a photo to be missed....And there is a "Z" hiding in the middle of that J train.
Stupid computers.
Yeah it was a pretty nice loop. The way home suffered from lack of photos because the AM dispatcher told me to try taking the Q44 home, which turned out to be pretty quick. I had planned to get some pictures on the A line but there'll always be more opportunities.
Was there something going on today or do we have a 46 (or more than 1) on the E to stay?
Yes, you'll periodicaly see an R46 on the E line.
Does this mean there are still two sets of R46s that run on the E, or do they just show up occasionally during a rush hour or something? -Nick
:-) Andrew
Just like when I started riding trains back in the mid-80s. I remember I used to be afraid of the R-32s because the lights used to go out over the third rail gaps, while I loved the R-46s because of they seemed so much faster. Despite the lack of railfan windows, the R-46s are still my favourite cars.
-Stef
For more information:
A nice history and roster of Steamtown - http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pennsy/steamtown/bellowsfalls/
A lot of informaation and links - http://www.northeast.railfan.net/trains.html
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We do have a Fourth Avenue Local poster on the board. Doesn't
use the BMT number designation though. I know arones on the
#2 Fourth Avenue Local Astoria to 95th Street~Fort Hamilton in
the late forties. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Are you honestly telling me you'd be surprised if someone were that crazy?
Who the hell in their right minds would want to be connected to the 4th Avenue Local by calling them #2 4th Avenue Local?
It would take someone with a sense of humour. But look on the bright side - the 4th Ave Lcl when it was called the #2 wasn't an IND train yet.
No it was a BMT train being operated with IND cars [R-1s], but with
the storm doors locked between cars. Frustrating for me as a youngun
being unable to walk forward to the "Railfan Window". >GG<
8-) Sparky
Maybe we should suggest to the TA that they bring back skip-stop on the Brighton Line...
8-) ~ Sparky
1. I would have succeeded
2. I would have been a dirty old man.
I could have a third thing, too. My wife would have thrown me out of the house when I came back. That is, unless Bob could keep his mouth shut.
Nah, I just like women and love to talk to them. My wife knows I am a one woman man.
We don't want Linda to be mad at you.:)
8-) ~ Sparky
Not the line that ran to Fulton via Franklin.
Tom
So for a #1 Brighton Local, it would have to be via Tunnel or
via Bridge, dependent on day of the week.
The 14th Street-Carnarsie was another with variations of the #16.
Weekdays, you could have #16 14th Street Local[LL], #16 14th Street
Express [L] and weekends #16 14th Street Line [LL], now the (L).
8-)~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
I was there in 1992. Not much left of the old Steamtown site. The Green Mountain excursions pass the site on it's run between Bellows Falls and Chester. Great scenery and a lot of fun.
Bellows Falls:
Chester:
Can it be changed, Dave?
1) Who's the T/O in the cab? It's a little difficult to see him, but Transit and Weather were definitely together on that day.
2) Who's that strange looking fella hanging out of the subway car?
3) The $64,000 question - What is that subway car?
4) Identity Crisis - Is that subway car really a trolley car in disguise, or are trolley cars really subway cars?
-Stef
2) Stef (wild guess)
3) r17 car 6688
4) Subway Car converted INTO Trolley
-Mr. Todd
-Stef
-Stef
2) Stef
3) R17 6688
4) A subway car going through a mid-life crisis
Jimmy( who happened to be on board earlier) :)
LOL!
-Stef
An Idea to Extend S. Jersey Rails
Mark
But that was a bad plan, said Gloucester County Freeholder Director and State Sen. Stephen Sweeney. The light-rail proposal involved using existing rail lines with at least two dozen grade crossings that officials viewed as major public safety and traffic concerns.
Although there are probably other reasons to oppose the SJLR, I believe the safety issue is a red herring.
Despite the recent mishap at the grade-crossing on the NCS, an LRV crossing at-grade has no more or less chance of hitting or being hit by another type of vehicle than does a bus. In fact, I would argue buses travelling among private automobiles and trucks are less safe than a light rail vehicle travelling mostly on its own ROW. Witness the recent runaway bus in Queens. Accidents can happen anywhere and with all types of public transport.
Furthermore, since the South Jersey LR ROW is an "existing rail line," the potential for the "public" to encounter "traffic" or something "unsafe" at these grade crossings already exists. What would you rather run into at 35 mph in a grade-crossing? An lightweight LRV or a big, heavy, lumbering boxcar?
Mark
Yes, that is the ROW referred to in the article with all the grade crossings. It was the West Jersey & Seashore (PRR) third rail electric line to Millville and Atlantic City. Electric passenger service terminated abruptly over 50 years ago when NJ banned use of wood passenger cars. Passenger service to Millville continued to around 1970 using Budd RDCs. The line now hosts Conrail Shared Assets freight trains.
You can run third rail systems with crossings (LIRR, for example), but building new ones like that is asking for NIMBY trouble, and not a great idea if you want subway-like frequency.
The only problem is access to center city. Using the Delair bridge tacks on like 30-40 minutes and transfering to PATCO gives a dreaded 2-seat ride and PATCO is already at crush load in the peak periods. If money were no object I would build a tunnel from Westville to Greenwitch Yards in South Philly, add a Sports Complex stop then run the trains into the lower level of 30th St Station on tracks 9/10.
That all by itself would be enough to kill that concept - unless you hook it up to SEPTA Regional Rail. Propose how you'd run your commuter train onto SEPTA tracks - let's say you'll use a DM30 type hauler, or something similar.
Go out to the Sea Beach line, you will see why Wilson Ave is not that bad. HEHE!!!
wayne
I guess you can also count some stretches of the D/B Concourse line, which are simultaneously elevated AND in an enclosed tube (according to the description on this site)...
I could cop out (excuse the pun) and say that my post said "SOME examples" but the truth is I didn't think of it at the time!!! Same thing with Franklin and Fulton.
Ugliest of all? Chambers BMT, of course, with its monstrous Leak, and the north-east corner of the abandoned platform, heaped with garbage and filth, has to be one of the worst-looking places in the entire system.
A close second: 21st-Van Alst on the "G", with a bubbling spring of mineral water gurgling through the wall, fouling and corroding the tiles.
wayne
I've just been looking at some of the nycsubway.org images of this station, and apparently the razor wire is a fairly recent addition. I understand the reason for it, of course, but as originally built it probably had one of the more beautiful panoramic views of any outdoor station.
But at least it was OPEN :)
--Mark
That must have hurt :)
--Mark
--Mark
Well, I suppose he was practicing hygiene, of a sort.
--Mark
I think heypaul posted a photo a while back.
wayne
I have used this restroom twice within the past 2 weeks and find this statement to be totally untrue.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, I have to disagree. I know people like to exagerate here sometimes, but in this case it seems true. I used the Amtrak bathroom at Penn just Sunday morning, and not only did I have to try not to breathe, but every sink had some homeless person shaving, the place was pretty bad. You must've been in there right after they cleaned it, but it sure was filthy on Sunday!
The Newkirk av restroom is gross, but at least is open
--Mark
A major intensive care rehab is needed for that station. And so does the 2 Ave Station, Essex Street Station and its entrance. Well, at least Stillwell Ave Station is still remained in the intensive care rehab.
Or they could always do what they did at Sutphin/Archer: install a system of catch trays and drain pipes and send the water to the trackbed and so on to the sewer system. At Sutphin, you have a single leaky main. At Chambers, you have an entire infrastructure.
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
HUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRKKKKKKK!!!!!!
You also said that 1277's fans would come on and off, spinning lazily. But the fact that the heat in the car was on only made it worse.
You mention you passed up at least four or five E trains, some nice and air-conditioned, because you had to have your F train. As Jack Smith used to say, "You asked for it!"
Here's Wayne's post from July of 1999. It's an absolute gem.
Let's just say you had to be there.
There must be something mystically horrible about that day.
Lee's a woman? Who knew?! I've been saying 'he or she' on
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yup... that is a CEMETARY across the way there, you GOTTA keep the ghosts out! Scare the sheets outa people, you know!
: )
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
WAYNE (still smarting over THAT one)
Now that I vented my anger out, shame on NYCT. And the underpass at the 3rd ave station is buried also, another waste.
I often wonder how they plan to clean those flourescent montrosities when they get encrusted with steel dust, which is enivitable. They sure as hell cannot power wash them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The only thing I don't like is there's no air conditioning like the Lex platform has. I just think the MTA is going to do the same quality renovation at the 7's platform at Times Square. Want to see how bad it is? Go over there and walk over to the west end of the platform. You know how certain stations throughout the system have this distinctive urine smell. Well....let's just say this platform is no different.
eau 'd transit. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Those electroinc sign high above you at the #7 platform are just plain AWFUL when on any given weekend, the message on the board reads:
TRANSFER AT TIMES SQUARE FOR
N Q R S 1 2 3
When the N train is not running in Manhattan on nights and weekends.
#3 West End Jeff
I wonder what the MTA was smoking when the renovated that station? I just felt that they didn't think of (7) riders, and thought the Lex. and 42 Street Shuttle riders were 'superior' to them. It's obvious the MTA has a list of 'priorities' when it comes to things like this.
Though now, it makes mes glad the MTA has been recently exposed with the audit Hevesi did. Personally, I want to see Kalilow ousted. Him with his name on the new edition 'The Map'. He's so snide! >:-(
And the BMT Times Square station is THE PITS, among the five worst in the entire system. Rehab can NOT come too soon for that bear's den.
wayne
TODAY I would say THE BOTTOM STEP of whichever station atwhich
you're getting off at... because once you reach the bottom step
you look back and know you've LEFT the subway kingdom... :(
Stop already! If I laugh any harder I'll wet my pants!:)
I use that term too, but where does it come from?
I guess because of its vertical dimensions. It seems to resemble a refrigerator. I think WayneMr40Slant coined that term.
Bill "Newkirk"
David
If anything though, I am one of the people who really like the 'tile' look. It just makes the stations so great. Even though I am a bit partial to the IRT (the 7, mainly), I always adore the shiny tiling the IND stations have! I also find it humorous how the MTA has been renovating some of the stations. You can see colors of tile obviously mismatched....even white tile! It's a shame, really.
Truth be told, I really have to agree. I don't want to get stoned, but I did like the "look" of the cement block aka refrigerator tile that Broadway had. Each station had a unique color scheme, and that color was the station sign area (before they removed every other sign when they went from white signs to black signs). What I have the problem with is that those blocks cover up the original mosaics, which was a total mistake on both Broadway and 4th Ave.
I would have NO problem with it if that refrigerator tile would have been used as original tile in new stations, such as on 63rd st, or if a 2nd Ave subway was built in the 70's when that was the style. The ONLY reason I want it removed is because I want the mosaics restored, not because I think it's a bad look.
I always adore the shiny tiling the IND stations have! I also find it humorous how the MTA has been renovating some of the stations. You can see colors of tile obviously mismatched....even white tile! It's a shame, really.
Although, many IND stations are a bit depressing, I also do like the IND look. They are quite cool in their simplicity. The tile band adds just enough color, and I love the little IND repeating station names. Unfortunately, many of the renovations either did not re-incorporate them, or replaced them badly. For example, some stations lost them completely, and at 14th/8th there are not enough little "14"s, and other stations like Delancey not only don't have enough of the repeating names, but the replacement font is awful.
Truth be told, I really have to agree. I don't want to get stoned, but I did like the "look" of the cement block aka refrigerator tile that Broadway had. Each station had a unique color scheme, and that color was the station sign area (before they removed every other sign when they went from white signs to black signs). What I have the problem with is that those blocks cover up the original mosaics, which was a total mistake on both Broadway and 4th Ave.
I would have NO problem with it if that refrigerator tile would have been used as original tile in new stations, such as on 63rd st, or if a 2nd Ave subway was built in the 70's when that was the style. The ONLY reason I want it removed is because I want the mosaics restored, not because I think it's a bad look.
I always adore the shiny tiling the IND stations have! I also find it humorous how the MTA has been renovating some of the stations. You can see colors of tile obviously mismatched....even white tile! It's a shame, really.
Although, many IND stations are a bit depressing, I also do like the IND look. They are quite cool in their simplicity. The tile band adds just enough color, and I love the little IND repeating station names. Unfortunately, many of the renovations either did not re-incorporate them, or replaced them badly. For example, some stations lost them completely, and at 14th/8th there are not enough little "14"s, and other stations like Delancey not only don't have enough of the repeating names, but the replacement font is awful.
Except for the fact that 47-50 is red. Shouldn't it be purple?
Sutter Avenue/Van Sinderin- L.
Lexington Avenue/53rd- E/V.
3rd Avenue/138th- 6.
77th/Lex- 4/6.
Because I use it a lot, Court Street- M/N/R/W.
-Robert King
-- Ed Sachs
They were designed as BMT clones.
-- Ed Sachs
Were the buildings always built after or concurrent with the subway?
I know of some current places and some past/future places but I wonder if there are more:
Current:
- SE and SW corner of 6th and 53rd
- SE and NE corner of 8th and 53rd
- 4/5/6 at GCT
- JMZ at SE corner of Kenmare and Centre
- NRW at north end of Battery Park
Past/future:
- PATH at WTC
- B/D at SW corner of Houston and Chrystie
Mark
Judiciary Square B02 only passes under the corners of two of the old court buildings. Some jail sells in the northeast corner in the basement of the west building were removed to make room for the west mezzanine ancillary areas.
A and C connector runs under the southwest corner of the Army Navy Club on the northeast corner of 17th and I Streets. The north front on the Unites States Treasury Building. These are the only buildings that I know of that were underpinned to accommodate metrorail tunnels directly under buildings. Many foundations were underpinned to accommodate tunnels adjacent to properties.
There are many others that were not underpinned to accommodate tunnels because the tunnels were excavated through bed rock. An apartment building between Ashmead Place and Belmont Road off Connecticut Avenue is above the twin track bore north of Dupont Circle A03. All of the buildings on the east side of Wisconsin Avenue between Grant Road and Brandywine Street are above the Tenleytown Station A07.
Short section of tunnels between L'Enfant Plaza F03 and Waterfront F04 pass under some buildings.
Many buildings were built over tunnels after metrorail was built. The Jackson Graham Building WMATAs headquarters at 600 5th Street NW over the Red Line B Route and across 6th Street The MCI Center is above the same tunnel. A DC government office build on 4th Street was build over the tunnels east of Judiciary Square B02.
John
In IND stations, tiled columns indicate a building overhead. See, e.g., Jay and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I assume the buildings came first.
148th Street-Lenox Terminal and the adjacent yard are underneath an apartment building, as are a few other yards. These buildings all came later.
Not always, 155th Street/8th Avenue and 205th Street on The Concourse line are under buildings, but they have concrete covered columns, not tiled.
Peace,
ANDEE
Interesting, I heard that before, and often wondered why one side of the Jay Street station had tiled columns, and the other just had beams, like Canal Street on the Nassau Line.
I often wondered why Morgan Ave on the L has tiled columns, does anyone know about why Morgan's columns are tiled?
Also, is that the reason Broadway Junction (aka Broadway-East New York) has a few columns encased in tile?
avid
The line and station on the F line are both built not underneath Propsect Pk West as one might figure, but about 50-100 feet east of the above ground street. So when the IND portion was built in 1935, parts of Prospect Park were ripped apart, and some buildings on Propspect PK SW existed before the subway opened (I think). This will also explain on how the entrances at 15th st and Windsor Place are mid-block (not the corner exits at Bartel Prichard Square), instead on being on street corners, as is the practice with most subway entrances.
1/9 at Cortlandt St. (see: WTC)
1/9 south of Dyckman St (see)
-- Ed Sachs
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, if I recall correctly, the Museum of Natural History had an exit leading directly to the subway platform (I do not recall, though, if the station was directly attached to the building).
The Broad St line had a problem It could not go straight under City Hall because of the massive foundations. So the subway turned from a straight North-South line, turned Southwest at Arch St, passes under a part of the now Munincipal Services Bldg,then turns sharply Southeast, starting at the NW corner of City Hall, then returns to its original straight North-South route at the South wing of City Hall (facing S. Penn Sq.).
City Hall pre-dated both Subway Lines. The building was completed in 1901. The Market St Subway was built in 1907/1908, the Broad St Line was completed in 1928.
There is a portion of the Locust St Subway that runs under a building at 8th and Locust, since the turn is rather wide and sweeping, and the intersection at that corner is a meet between 2 narrow streets, so tunneling under a building was a neccessity.
Correct me if I`m wrong, but there may be some buildings on the Univ. Of Pennsylvania Campus that sit atop the Subway-Surface tunnel. Until the 1950's, Woodland Ave ran all the way up to a 4 way intersection where 32nd st, Market St, Lancaster Ave and Woodland Ave met. When the tunnel was completed and the trolleys re-routed into the tunnel, both Woodland and Lancaster Aves were closed,(Woodland ave was cut back to 38th st, and Lancaster Ave was cut back to 34th St) and the streets was turned over to Penn (woodland Ave) and Drexel (Lancaster Ave) and both universities either built over the streets, or kept portions of these streets as walkways thru their campuses.
I wonder what the thickness is of the walls between the two? Sometime I'll have to see if I can find anything about it.
#3 West End Jeff
1. Ditmars Blvd/Astoria (The big mammoth structure overhead)
2. Driving (or riding the M60 bus) along the main span of the Triborough Bridge.
3. Between Whitlock and Elder Aves on the #6 line in the Bronx, as it makes the Whitlock curve, look for it on the right side going N/B, a station used to be there to my knowledge.
At least it's not like you played (and gave up on!) Lotto.
Amtrak crosses Northern Blvd at Broadway & 54th St. The BQE crosses Northern Blvd at 64th St, about 10 blocks further east.
wayne
That should be the LIRR Bay Ridge freight branch. The reason for the construction is that the BQE is having a curve straighted. So they had to build a new overpass for the railroad and relocate the tracks.
Bill "Newkirk"
1) Functional patch-up. This type of rehab fixes what's broken in a minimal way, with little consideration for the overall beauty of the station. Perhaps the saddest example of this is Bleecker St, which has those beautiful cobalt blue "Bleecker St" signs in half the station, and ugly lettering on bare walls in the other half.
2) Functional make-over. This type of rehab gives the entire station a new look, but doesn't make much attempt to be beautiful. Perhaps the best example of this is Bowling Green. It's no work of art, but it's consistent. And it doesn't look anything like the original Bowling Green station.
3) Respectful re-creation. This type of rehab attempts, more or less, to approximate the original appearance of the station when it first opened. An example of this would be Canal St on the #1/9.
4) Artistic make-over. This type of rehab recognizes the importance of creating a beautiful station, but does so in a new way. An example of this would be the Museum of Natural History (86th St) on Central Park West, which has gorgeous new mosaics relating to the museum. Obviously those mosaics weren't there originally (nor anything like them); equally obviously, the rehab attempted to make the station beautiful, not just to fix it up in a functional way.
Anyone care to give their favorite (or most infamous) examples of each?
As for some poor examples, 42nd st/8th Ave, 110th st/Lex and 125th st/Lex are examples on why they were rehabbed twice in the MTA's 21 year capital program history. Do it right the first time and money won't be wasted for the second rehab, the funds can be redirected to another station in dire need of an overhaul.
Thanks!
~W
BTW: Q trains will end at Times Square this Saturday (4/26) due to the R line using express tracks at 57/7. R trains are rerouted via 63rd st Line to 36th st Queens and the W is not running between Lexington Ave, Manhattan and Queensboro Plaza. The GO takes effect from 12:01 AM to 8 PM Saturday only.
Steve
Perhaps some of R46 as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Q gets a set or two of R-40's on weekends, just as the W has to run a few sets to make up for its all-local run. (Two sets would probably suffice, since a round trip will take about 16 minutes longer than it does now and, IINM, the Q runs on 8-minute headways on weekends.)
Sorry for any confusion.
I don't think the Canal bridge platforms have steel beam columns. I don't remember. If they were they could string up some red tape between the columns on the platform. No matter how many signs they'll put on the wall, people won't read them. I find that only a taped off platform usually gives enough clue to some people that the train ain't comin'.
So, how was rolling stock delivered onto the line? The system today has only one storage yard in that span, at 137 St, but there don't appear to be any maintenance facilities there.
Some of you must have taken this class in the past; anything surprising I should be on the outlook for? (Besides the trains, of course- I'm not going to set myself up that easy. :) )
While we're at it, anyone have any funny/scary rail walking experiences?
Thanks,
Bryan
Try to find a niche that isnt' completely covered in dripping crud, but don't count on it, and dress appropriately.
Track safety is a lot like driving school -- show you a lot of horrible things that can go wrong to scare you straight. Given what has happened in the past 18 months or so, I'm sure it will seem a lot scarier.
One thing for sure: a train every 10 mintues seems to take forever when you are on the platform. It comes up in no time when you are on the track.
Never step into a switchpoint.
Look all ways.
Walk around heavy machinery.
Walk around areas of multiple switches.
Avoid stepping where adjacent third rails abound.
Never enter or debark a trainset carring a heavy load.
Step sideways over the third rail.
Always wear PPE and carry a flashlight/flag.
Observe irons, signals and movement of trainsets.
Use your partner to transfer heavy materiels.
NEVER take a whizz over the third rail.
Safety is...what you make of it.
Again, good luck. CI Peter
While these are all very important I don't think there are any 3rd rails in Long Branch NJ.
If he's catching a train from Long Branch, NJ at 5:14 to get there, I don't think it's in Long Branch, NJ...
The railroad needs to invest in some porta potties.
"We make #2 our #1 business"
8-)
Hey, Pete, how many guys forget that rule? :)
- Never step on anything shiny
- Do not walk between the running rails, or between the running rail and 3rd rail
- Never assume the third rail has no juice, even if the power is off
- Always assume a train can come from either direction
Never step into a switchpoint.
Never step on the rods either.
If this is what you took away from the class, you need a refresher already. This attitude might have gotten the contractor killed at Atlantic Avenue last year. Contractors are only allowed on the tracks with flagging protection provided by RTO. You are not qualified to go on the tracks by yourself. Call your instructor if you doubt this.
I apologize for my previous simplification.
The class was great, though a bit overwhelming in the amount of info they cramed in before lunch. And when that first train went by..... it was just damn freaky having 50,000 pounds of metal cruising by about 6 inches from your nose!
If any of you folks work on the tracks, I salute you for working in those conditions. Me, I'll stay in my office, thank you.
Oh yeah, I did pass!
Bryan
-Myself, on an r62/62a I sit at the window seat opposite the cab at the non-operating (no. 2 end) facing forward.
-on a RFW-capable r62 car I'm... you guessed it... there.
-on an r142/142a I'm the one pressed ever closely to the doorpanel at hopes
of being let out of the car not a moment after upheaving yesterday's smoothie.
And you?
R-44,46,68,68A
Longitudinal seat, next to the window, taking full advantage of arm and foot rests, and looking out the side window.
R62,62A
Packed like a can of sardines in a crowded IRT train, usually sitting in the middle. Otherwise at an empty cab examining speedometer. The uptown (1) is pretty fast north of 116th!
R-110A
Seen it about five times in person, but never got to ride it.
R-110B
I don't remember what the inside looked like! All I remember was sometimes green and sometimes ivory seating.
R-142,142A
Either in the back looking out the drunken RFW, or fidgeting around on the uncomfortable seating. If train is crowded I usually don't get a seat, or if it's a #2 I usually have to remove trash from the seat.
R-143
Sitting in the folding corner seats, if I get a seat.
R-160
On the platform eagerly waiting for the test train to arrive. :)
R32/R38: I either sit in middle or stand by the railfan window.
R40 Slant: I usually like sitting at the end, and I love looking through the thin railfan window. I don't find the seats uncomfortable. I wish they could stay on the (L).
R40m/R42: Same as the slants, I sit at the ends and look out the railfan window.
R62/R62A: I never sit because the seating sucks! When its crowded you get squashed. These cars are uncomfortable, I'd rather ride redbirds than these.
R44/R46: The seats that are adjacent to the windows, no contest. Those are easily the best seats of any subway car. Arm rest and foot rest. :)
R68/R68A: Same as R44/R46, but the arm rest isn't that good.
R142/R142A: I like seating in the middle.
R143: Railfan window or the folding seats outside the T/O compartment.
Now, I'm all for new technology, but there was an elegant simplicity to the old trains. All they had to do was flip the roll signs, and a #5 could become a #2 in minutes. The automated announcements on the new trains are evidently "hard-wired" and can't be easily changed. So too, of course, are the illuminated route diagrams in each car.
You have to wonder whether this was well thought out when the new cars were designed. It isn't exactly surprising that trains are sometimes re-routed, and rolling stock is sometimes swapped between lines. I should think they could have come up with a cleverer way of handling it than to have each trainset pre-programmed for one, and only one, route.
Arti
The R-142's are beginning to catch up with the more recent program (installed on all 4 trains and I think all 5 trains but only a few 6 trains and I don't think any 2 trains), which has more options, but it still has a very limited set of options -- the R-46's can be programmed to display any B Division station as a destination.
Announcements are the least of the MTA's worries on the list of fixes with a new car class.
Be patient
A flexible system would allow NYCT personnel to update the announcements on the fly, to cover not only permanent service changes but also GO's and temporary reroutes. The brand new 4 trains' announcements are already out-of-date; they don't reflect the night/weekend N/W swap north of Pacific. Beginning next weekend, they'll still be announcing the N on weekends at Borough Hall when they should be announcing the W and Q instead.
I rode the L train last weekend from Manhattan to Lorimer, where I had to transfer to a shuttle bus -- yet the signs claimed the train was going to Myrtle. There's only one thing wrong than a train with missing or unclear signage or announcements, and that's a train with crystal clear but incorrect signage or announcements. Announcements are much more important than you make them out to be.
The 6 was still announcing a transfer to the F at 53 St not too long ago as I recall too. Ridiculous.
>> Announcements are much more important than you make them out to be. <<
I agree. Not everyone is a railfan-- lots of folks just want to get where they're going without getting misdirected. Occasional subway riders will get a really bad taste in their mouths if the announcements are wrong. Only two months ago I was on an F train and two unrelated riders were genuinely surprised that it was going through the 63 St tunnel and bypassing 53/Lex. They'd be even more confused if the announcements claimed that 63/Lex was 53/Lex.
If a train is rerouted, how do you expect the automated announcements to be handled anyway?
Doesn't 239th have 2 trains and diamond-5 trains? Also New Lots - doesn't that have a load of Lexington Avenue trains as well as the 3 train?
Apparently not, see other posts on this thread.
He continued: "If a train is rerouted, how do you expect the automated announcements to be handled anyway?"
When a train leaves its point of origination, I think the crew usually know where they are going, and by what route. It should be possible to punch that information into the on-board system--the modern technology equivalent of changing the rollsigns.
An exception for odd routings might be understandable (e.g., when the dispatcher tells the crew to battery run, because the trains have gotten too bunched up). But in the example I gave, which was not a first, a #5 was running on the #2 -- clearly something the system should be able to handle, if it can handle anything.
- was correctly signed as a 5
- played the correct station announcements for the 2
- had interior strip maps for the 5 that were correctly rendered inactive
- AND announced, "This is a Brooklyn-bound 5 express train via the 7th Avenue line"
This suggests that at least some of the flexibility you're talking about is there, but maybe not in all of the trainsets and/or not all crews know how to set up the routings correctly.
Close but not quite there yet.
Digital signs have the capability to display every station as a terminal. It's a shame the MTA hasn't programmed this into the R-142.
The next time you want to tout the superiority of rollsigns, ride the N terminating at Kings Highway, or so they say.
By the way, do the A Division cars have "Queensboro Plaza" on the sign curtains? When the 7 was running to Queensboro Plaza (because of the el structure repainting), ALL of the trains were still signed up for Times Square.
How do these 7 trains terminate at QBP? The only ways I can see are:
- a triple reverse move (in downstairs, reverse onto express tracks, reverse into upstairs station, reverse and depart)
- running express in one direction to/from 61st St Woodside
- running light to Hunters Point Avenue (if so, why don't they run with passengers to Hunters Point Avenue?)
Almost... there's a switch from the express track to the Flushing-bound local track before 33-Rawson, so it doesn't have to reverse into Queensboro Plaza upstairs.
Exactly. The platform upstairs is roped off.
The track network is finite. The automated system should allow any possible routing over the division in question (A or B).
Peace,
ANDEE
Arti
If a train is rerouted, how do you expect the automated announcements to be handled anyway?
Arti
If a train is rerouted, how do you expect the automated announcements to be handled anyway?
This is how automated accounments work on MARTA. Every train says the same annoucement at the exact same point as every other train, because annoucements are triggered by where the train is at and not simply by order.
This is far simpliar to execute then the system NYCT decided to use
The one good thing is that it software could always be replaced.
Using the transponders would fit the mold of KISS (keep it simple stupid)
The transponders cost dirt cheap. Never confusion of where the train is. What's it's route. what's the next stop. When to annouce the station.
Yeah it would be lost if the train is rerouted, but honestly, how often does that happen?
With the current system there is no additional equip to operate other than the train.
The other part of it is that many of the conductors do not speak clearly, mis-time the announcements, or don't make announcements they're supposed to. When they work (which is usually), the automated announcements are a massive improvement.
Last week approaching 14th/7th a human conductor made a manual announcement on my downtown 2 train warning people that PATH wasn't available at Park Place ... the solution he suggested? Take an uptown train to 34th Street and walk to Herald Square.
On one of the recent weekends when the 7 wasn't running to Manhattan, a conductor on the uptown 4 helpfully announced that fact when we pulled into Grand Central. Unfortunately, his instructions were to stay on the 4 to 59th Street, and transfer to a Queens-bound N train to Queensboro Plaza.
As recently as a couple of months ago I still heard a human conductor announce a transfer to the 63rd Street Shuttle at 14th/7th.
This sort of thing happens to me much more often than the kind of detailed, useful, accurate announcement you describe. If every conductor could make such announcements, there would be no need to automate them.
But some C/R's are careful to make correct announcements.
You complain about the C/R on your 4 who told 7-bound passengers to use the N. Guess what? If you had been on an R-142, it would have announced a transfer to the 7 at Grand Central and a transfer to the N at 59th -- and those announcements would have been crystal clear, pronounced with the voice of authority.
It didn't take long for 2 riders between 9/01 and 9/02 to learn to simply ignore the automated announcements, when the "2 express train" was a local. Anyone who tried to follow them ended up hopelessly confused. Unfortunately, many C/R's don't bother filling in when the announcements go haywire. If a SB 2 pulls in on the local track at 96th, I need to know if it will be making local stops (since I live at 86th). More often than not, the computer announces 72nd and the C/R doesn't chime in with a clarification, leaving the passengers to guess what's going on. (IME, if it's on the local track, it will usually make local stops, but not always -- fortunately, there's a free crossover at 72nd now.) Back when the C/R had to make an announcement, it would usually be correct in such a case.
Even if you have only an operator, changing the location where the train THINKS it is should with well-designed software take only a few seconds.
ON THE JUICE. Does the train use the same computer to run both the anouncements and the trains locomotion and door control
Does each indvidual car have it's own computer and hard drive that stores the announcements?
IF so they can probably be clustered together to maximize there overall computing power. JUNO wanted to roll out a system that shared it's free subscribers unused computer resources to sell to scientific research. On a serious not, lynux clustering is big and may be able to be adopted to the r-142 systems.
Bus lines that use such automatic announcement systems.
It started announcing as if it was starting from 241st. Within 2 stops, they were turnned off, and the CR did the over ride at each stop.
Today while in training at 149-GC,there was a Manhattan bound 5 train sitting on the track not going anywhere untill they decided to run it down 7Av.The sign said:
5 7Av Express
5 Bronx Express
5 Brooklyn Express
5 To Flatbush Av
But here's EXACTLY what the automated announcment said and I CLEARLY heard it from the NB platform. "This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train running over the 7Av line.The next stop is 135St."
I was sooooo shocked!I couldn't believe it and believe me,it takes ALOT to suprise me.
"This is a Manhattan-bound 5 local train...via the 7th Avenue Line. (2 train voice)The next stop is...135th Street"
The displays say what was previously posted...
5 TO FLATBUSH AV
5 7 AV EXPRESS
5 BROOKLYN EXPRESS
(5 BRONX EXPRESS is added if the 5 was running Express in the Bronx)
The 2 trains that were updated say this:
"This is a Manhattan-bound 2 local train...via the Lexington Avenue line. (5 train voice)The next...stop is...138th St-Grand Concourse."
The displays?
2 TO FLATBUSH AV
2 LEXINGTON AV EXP
After the 2 and 5 trains leave 149th-Grand Concourse, the guy says this:
"The electronic strip maps are not working. Please listen for station announcements and watch the displays."
When I heard that, I was like..."WHOOOAAAA!!!!!!!!"
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug, R142/R142As are my other drugs
The software you describe sounds like such a piece of crap
Are the anouncements stored on a hard drive?
What kind of Specs and O/S is the announcement system using
Maybe i'll write my own code and donate it to the MTA
No, though there might be very localized opposition in places where the disruption will be high. A shopkeeper who finds his access will be messed up for will scream, but he'll be in a tiny minority.
I do think the shallow Chrystie option was shelved due to expected community opposition, not to the SAS as a whole, but to that specific option. Locals would not want the park torn up for years on end if a deep option could avoid that.
Probably. Also, some opposition would come from...
1. Term-limited politicians who won't be able to claim credit for SAS once it opens.
2. The Straphangers Campaign, who will be unable to complain about overcrowding on Lexington Avenue once SAS opens.
There will some who like the idea, but think it's not enough (e.g., that it should have included extensions to the Bronx or Brooklyn). And there will be some who think the route south of 14th St should be further east, to better serve Alphabet City. I don't think these comments will lead to the design being altered.
But don't be surprised if some disingenous "community" opposition is manufactured by these groups. And don't be surprised if such "opposition" is used by those who want an excuse not to build what was promised.
Let me give you an example. In the early 1990s, the NYC Department of City Planning proposed to permit new supermarkets in industrial zones, the only places in near neighbhoroods where land was available. They had been banned to preserve sites for industry in 1974 -- manufacturing disappeared anyway.
The supermarket oligopoly came up with lots of money to create opposition from two groups. Whites were told supermarkets would be built in their neighborhoods, attracting "outsiders" who would alter "community character" and bring "crime." Minorities were told the whole thing was a White plot to drive minority owned companies out of business.
People has better be prepared to fight for this.
See what I mean? There are three steps in every issue in New York City.
1) The bureaucratic step, in which bureacrats try to come up what is best for the "public interest."
2) The "community participation" step, which is dominated by negative loudmouths motivated by race, class, and self promotion.
3) The political step, in which our "leaders" make an unnannoucned non-decision and go back to rewarding the small number of people who keep them in office with special deals.
The supermarkets? The zoning change was voted down by the City Council which said it had a better plan which would be proposed "soon." The "better plan" part was intended to divert the rage of low income people and their advocates who wanted unrotted food at the same prices people pay in the suburbs. That was in 1996.
True, but the city is still grossly under-supermarketed. You name the worthy project, there are people who'll fight tooth and nail to kill it. The SAS won't be any different.
I don't want to get into any Central Planning here....but a large increase in supermarkets into the boroughs will put a hurtin' on the shopping streets. I'm thinking streets like 18th Ave., Kings Hwy, Church Ave., Bay Parkway, etc. Just how much do we want to give up to become equal to the suburbs? It just encourages the proliferation of car ownership. Would the value of supermarket shopping overcome the loss of many specialty stores on your local neighborhood street? Do we want to see our streets become even less important as location and destination? There can't be that many cell phone stores on any block, ya know.
I like lively local shopping streets. This is one of the benefits of city living. Walk down the stairs, exit your building and all the stores you need within a few blocks. Nothing wrong with that.
18th Ave, Bay Parkway, Kings highway all have terrible mass transit with inconvient bus access. I live in the area and anyone who is anyone drives to the store.
Why should city consumers be held hostage to higher prices and weaker selections
Vegatables are ususally cheaper at local stoes but all other goods are generealy more expensive at bodega's and other stores because they buy there goods in smaller quantities through distibuters rather then directly from the manufactured
The people who fight tooth and nail are those who operate the small stores who contribute heavily to the local city concilmembers
NYC has come along way recently with the like's of Home Depot, Circuit City, Best Buy, costco and BJ's, Marshals, TJmaxx.
The old bog box laws favored the local buisness/local politician caartel and harmed those who did not own cars to drive to long island or Jersey.
It is nice not to have to drive a half hour to pick up some supplies to fix my home or to take advantage of good deals
The bodegas. What's interesting is that the owners of those businesses could potentially do just as well, or even better, if they put some effort into studying the the product mix coming from the new supermarket or supercenter and fit into it. They could use some of their political muscle to get he big stores to sign agreements for specialty "shops within a shop" that they could run. Result: Area gets supermarket it needs badly, and the small sopkeepers get a shot at running a business with bettermarketing support.
But many are, unfortunately, too stupid to see that. In a poor neighborhood, when a bodega owner blocks a store that will end his ripoffs, he deserves whatever happens to him.
it is unfortunite that the local politicains give there constituatants false information for their own bennifits. Many forcing low income residents to pay higher prices and get a poorer qaility selection while they praise the local bodega owner and talk of the low paying jobs that will be lost. Suppeermarket jobs are not good paying jobs but offer bennifits and opurtunity to become managers that bodega's just do not
The line of the week from a local state senator who is opposed to elliot spitzer plan to move certain tort crimes to state appellete court vs local state courts. He describes the action as another example of "making black folks sit in the back of the bus" How does this have anything to do with racial bias and the practices of the old south. It doesnt't. This back of the bus refernce is there to sturr up opposition to a bill. The truth is that sheldon silver's old law firm is the number 2 law firm in the state the makes money off suing the city. He stands to loose money and thus the democratic state senators are putting up opposition and smoke sceens to defeat the bill
Huh? What is a tort crime? Where I come from a tort is a civil wrong between a plaintiff and a defendant, and a crime is a violation of the criminal law prosecuted by a public prosecutor on behalf of the state. And trial courts hear both civil and criminal cases, while appellate courts review the decisions of trial courts to be sure they conform to the law. New York confuses things by calling the trial court the "Supreme Court" where most other states reserve that name for the highest appellate court in the state.
Tom
3) The political step, in which our "leaders" make an unnannoucned non-decision and go back to rewarding the small number of people who keep them in office with special deals."
It's unfortunite the local political establishment especially the city concil are only interested in keeping the small base that contributes to there reelection, and pocketbook.
I sure not many on this board know that city concilman who make about $70k are officially PART TIME. What that means is they are free to take addtional employement or otherwise provide consulting. This is clever way to give a kickback
The whole anti-big box store issue, the "community participation" clause is designed to protect the interests of the small buisness that contribute to political elections. A few hundred votes in any direction is all it takes to win a concil seat. Just as in survivor, the politicians look to make alliances to deliever votes. Non-profits eager to gain finacing for projects bring down there members and cause a rutkus at the meetings(very few individuals participated in the recent mta public hearings)
Local stores give to elected officials. The officials try to paint the big box stores as local job killers. They are actually net job and tax generators. Even though some small stores will close, the new home depot will generate many jobs that include health insurance and management training programs for local residents to move up in the world. Plus those like myself who drove out to LI to shop now shop locally
The same is true for the ant-progress/nimby/anti-booth closing crowd. The TWU contributes to both the strapahgers campaign and local politicians who do as the union says and gererates "worst case senarios" why the booth should not closed. Last I looked exit only iron maidens have existed for many decades with people get murdered on a daily basis
As for drawing more people into there cars. The current lack a dasical way the MTA operates it's off peak service drives me to my car. Running 8 car trains with long headways instead of shorter trains with shorter headways is just insane. Operating buses with no real time supervision and then penalizing the training driver for running early when the first bis gets behind shedule.
You're in favor of allowing buses to run early, or you're not in favor of penal;izing drivers for breaking the rules?
I used to work in Nassau County. I'd occasionally do some grocery shopping there on my way back home. The prices were higher in Nassau County.
I spent a week in Los Angeles this past January. The prices there were at least 20% greater than those in my local superette.
Fruits and vegetables? The asian markets have good quality and low prices. The "fresh" produce I saw in LA was very expensive and of lower quality.
I did do some shopping in an upscale market in LA. The quality was good but the prices were out of sight. This is much the same as if I were to shop in an upscale market on the Upper East or West Side in Manhattan.
I don't know where you get the myth that small markets necessarily sell rotten food at inflated prices. Perhaps you started believing some the hype that the "professional" planners wrote.
Yes, indeed. Can't beat 'em. And the exotic stuff you can get there...
"I don't know where you get the myth that small markets necessarily sell rotten food at inflated prices."
I agree with you, Stephen. However, the bodegas would be consistent with Larry's description.
The bigger difference I've observed comes when you factor in the frequency of sales and specials in the suburban supermarkets. These are more frequent and come with deeper discounts than what I saw on the UWS.
CG
But produce is cheaper and fresher in the city.
And any product marketed to a specialty or ethnic group, if it can be found at all in the suburbs, is vastly more expensive, since that group doesn't have the critical mass to transform the product into a commodity item.
What the city lacks is a Trader Joe's. That's a terrific chain, found in some of the suburbs, that's pretty difficult to categorize - it's partly a gourmet shop, partly a health food/organic shop, partly a discount shop.
I've never visited a Trader Joe's. I'd find it difficult to imagine that a gourmet chain could be better than single proprietor owned store. It's just the nature of the gourmet food business. I just think back to cousin's neighborhood in the XIVe arrondissment of Paris. There were separate stores for groceries, green groceries, fish, cheese, bread, meat and pastries. Each one of them had better quality merchandise than Zabar's or Dean&DeLuca. There was also a once-a-week open air market on the street. The hyper-marches in the new towns now served by the RER, were awful in comparison.
That's probably why I haven't heard of them. I'm the type that prefers to pick individual fresh berries. They didn't introduce that did they? :-)
Matter of opinion. My older daughter swears by it, and when she goes to Las Vegas to shop (she and her family live in Kingman, Arizona, less than two hours away) she takes a cooler and goes there. I've compared prices with our stores in New Jersey and the only thing cheaper at Trader Joe's is the wine; cheese prices are also lower in the deli/gourmet sections of Smith's and Albertsons, the two Kingman supermarkets with which I am familiar, than they are at Trader Joe's. So I fail to understand her fascination with the place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brand name sales are generally done by the food manufacturer not the grocer or supermarket. They will also insist that some competing brands (usually off-brands) are not stocked during the sale. In most cases the food manufacturer will also print the sales flyer.
If there is a price differential pattern for on sale items, it is most likely to be directed by the food manufacturing companies rather than the local grocer.
One major result has been the decline of local brands. Local beverage makers were killed by this technique. Gone are local breweries like Schaefer's, Ruppert, Piels, etc. Gone are local soft drink manufacturers like Hoffman, Kirsch (No-Cal), etc. Gone too are local bakeries like Silvercup and TipTop.
This sure is one thing, I don't miss.
Arti
Right, but the best deals are generally reserved for the highest volume customers - which is why you'll find a sale on 2-liter Coke or Pepsi for 89 cents almost weekly in the 'burbs, but not nearly as deep a discount, nor as frequently in the smaller city supermarkets.
CG
And places like Costco offer their own brands as well. You can even find Costco stuff in other stores.
Of course the brand doesn't automatically tell you who the manufacturer or bottler is. It could be Pepsi or Coke.
Hoffman cola sucked. My local synagogue would buy these for trips for their day camp (where I was a camper). It's nice to know that they'll now be forced to get Coke or Pepsi for future generations.
Their fruit sodas were quite good.
That's legitimate on one count. Property values will rise sharply, in some cases doubling, and when your sister's property is reassessed, she may find herself paying more in property taxes.
" and that the criminal element will make the trek from 125st and harass people as they do on 86 st and Lexington ave."
The usual racially prejudiced nonsense. If it weren't so hateful and pathetic I'd laugh about ignorance like that, but it hurts people a lot who don't deserve it. The KKK elementr at work. Well, petitions are a protected form of speech, and they are entitled. But it's a long stretch to say they represent the neighborhood. In fact, they do not. Your sister on the losing end of this argument (unless she sells her property at 100% profit after the SAS has been running a couple of years - then she wins big).
In the cases of the people who are signing the petitions against the Second Ave. subway, it would be interesting to find out how many of them currently have to use East Side mass transit on a regular basis, or if the bulk of those signing either are fixed income retirees or people who work relatively close to home and would therefore be the least likely people to care about solving the Lex overcrowding situation.
In a few cases it really is out-and-out racism. And in some, perhaps a renter is truly afraid he'll be priced out of that market. I wasn't joking about the effect on property taxes.
Your other observations are quite valid. My consolation is that support is so overwhelming that NIMBY is unlikely to derail it this time. We're not out of the woods- but we've got a better chance.
When the Baltimore light rail system was expanded back in the 1980's or thereabouts, residents of the town of Linthicum, near BWI airport, complained that cburglary rates in their formerly peaceful town rose significantly. They claimed that people from the Baltimore ghetto were able to take the light rail to Linthicum, commit burglaries and other crimes, and return home before they faced much risk of apprehension. It was true that burglary rates did rise quite a bit. Upon further investigation, however, it was determined that most of these crimes were being committed not by people from Baltimore, but by local youths.
That's not a bad idea, but, politically, it won't fly. There also are some engineering challenges when you get closer to the water, though most of those relate to east-west lines. But you've got some good thoughts there.
Second Avenue also has fewer underground utilities to get in the way of the subway.
Ain't happnin', for several reasons.
1) The already constructed portions, although granted they aren't extensive, are along 2nd Ave. This includes the bellmouths at 63rd St that will allow northbound SAS trains to continue into Queens, and southbound SAS trains to continue on the Broadway line.
2) Second Avenue brings the line closer to the hub of commercial activity in midtown. It would gain more riders along Second Ave than along First.
3) There would be serious terrorism concerns about building an underground line so close to the United Nations.
4) There's already a significant investment in putting the line on Second Ave, including completed engineering work, and the acquisition of property easements. To move the line to First Ave, all of that would be thrown away.
"I would rather have the tunnel dimensions to IRT clearences being the IRT is the majority on the East Side and the SAS can serve as an alternate branch of the Lexington Ave Line and connect with the Bronx els without needing to retrofit to BMT/IND clearences on the els."
That ain't happnin' either, because the connections to Queens Blvd and Broadway are nearer-term, and both of those are IND lines.
It's good to see MARTA using up their unused land. There are several parking lots in the system that are relics of when those stations were terminals and the parking spaces were needed for commuters who drove to the station. Most of those lots sit nearly empty all the time since driving commuters now use the current terminal stations. It's about time MARTA takes advantage of this prime real estate.
So, anyone else ever have a train (bus, plane, boat, show) sell out while you were buying a ticket? What are the odds...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
John
But travelling north on the day after a holiday is ALWAYS a bad idea no matter what your mode. :(
-Nick
Michael
Washington, DC
Note the spiffy new booth...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yes, they removed that section of wall from Track One of the shuttle. They replaced it with conventional white tiles.
Bill "Newkirk"
2) was i correct in believing i read a post here not too long ago relating of the entrance on 43rd street being closed for some time?
2) the entrance on the far side of the shuttle
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
-Stef
And Stef, the booth is R147!
When I was at R147 before it closed, I would assist the Clerk in the Booth. I assisted at two locations at TSQ, Lincoln Center, one lunch, and I escorted the clerk at 66th St at the end of the night. Ahhhhhhhhh, those were the days!!!
-Stef
wayne
And that MetroCard booth is not new - there's been one just like it at the 42nd Street entrance to the (7) Grand Central stop for several years.
Why can't the IRT respect the history of the original line and try to leave things as they were? Why do they have to make that stupid H system that will lead to the destruction of most of the Times Square station?
There has been a great preservationist movement afoot in the last several years. Apparently everything old is new again. Look at the Broadway BMT, 66th Street IRT, etc. If it can't be fixed in situ, then they go to great pains to recreate it.
wayne
While, "artwork" like this might make the subway a more pleasant experience to use, I really don't think more people would use the Times Square Station, as opposed to some other alternate station just because this old wall has been brought up to the entrance.
---Choo Choo
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
I know there was a hot dog stand in that location, but not sure if it obscured that tablet and tile work.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe part of the wall for which it hung was taken down durring the building construction
If anything, the MTA has shown what great artistry these immigrants have added to the system. How does bringing this wall upstairs make the memory of these immigrants fade? If anything, it praises the work of these immigrants, and makes it a focal point of the new entrance. It will be a lot more enjoyed now than it was before.
Amtrak's lucky to have him.
John
The way he wins his battles is not good politics at all. He tells everyone what he needs to get the job done and says if he doesn't get it, it is time to close up shop. A politician would be busy telling everyone what he thought they wanted to hear (just one more appropriation and we will be in the black in six months), and then come up with excuses later when things did not work. Gunn is just a damned good manager.
Tom
Disagree all you want, but IIRC, he backed away from the job at TfL because he felt the privatization scheme would not work, and as shown in this interview he speaks his mind and lets the chips fall where they may. That is just the opposite of what a politician does. He is already past retirement age, and is more interested in keeping his reputation than his job.
Tom
Wish we had MORE like him!
But nobody gets to his position in life without having some political savvy.
It could be that going against the flow is a very savy calculated political move.
Mr. Anemone did not do the right thing. He started doing the right thing and then crossed the line when he invented an informant (and he has admitted to doing so, under oath).
His motives may have been good but he committed a very serious error. He is in hot water because he put himself there.
One final note: 9526 & 9527 ARE NOT DEAD. I saw them pulling a westbound 7 local at 48 St and Queens Blvd. For those of you interested in the consist, it was 9526-9527-9644-9645-9706-9707-96xx and I forget the other cars.
47 Ave?! And a SUBWAY entrance... that will go really well with the scenes of the Chicago L dressed up as an R train :).
One final note: 9526 & 9527 ARE NOT DEAD.
Yes they are; they're still in the same place in Corona yard, missing the same parts. You probably saw 9536-7. 9542-3 were on the road today, too, but not at the end of a consist.
R-36ML 9537
R-36ML 9536
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bull!
Also - another thing I've been pondering - at the end of the 7th avenue (brooklyn) Q platform, there is an emergency exit. But then it says "key in token booth" on the door. Does that mean that in an emergency I have to run upstairs, get the key, run back down and then let myself out? I wonder how reliable most emergency exits around the system are. And where does that door lead anyway? Every time a train goes by in the neighboring tunnel it sounds like some sort of fan or motor is switched on in there - or maybe its just the air pressure from the train.
See, this is what happens when you don't bring reading material on your commute!
I never noticed any difference, but now I just realized that I never thought to try the view from the anti-railfan window in the rear car. I wonder what that's like?
When redbirds were plentiful on the 6 line, I enjoyed looking out the window of the last car, particularly during rush hours. The 6 was a conga line going down Lexington Avenue and I was always facinated watching other trains close in on us as they approached the station my train was in. :)
I also enjoy standing at the anti-railfan window, though not as much as at the railfan window.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The back end of a LIRR vestibuled coach was a similar idea to this train at Knickerbocker or Central Ave, but certainly NOT the ride this photo must have allowed!
(from subwaywebnews.com)
I'm with you on that one. Me and my buddy Winky once hopped on a train out of Islip headed east. It was a tour train of all things, with lots of cars. We walked through them, had to have been at least ten cars, to the last semi-empty one. And we had that open platform to ourselves mostly all the way out to Westhampton. Beautiful.
I also liked the old coaches on diesel express runs down the Babylon Branch. Those stations would just whip by, and it was always a thrill to be taking this "super express" non-stop run from Jamaica to Babylon standing in the last cars vestibule. Many times, the door would be open. Probably the longest stretch of bare-faced railfannin' available in the country. A straight run of about 35 miles. Great for having a smoke or two for the ride....
I'm with you on that one. Me and my buddy Winky once hopped on a train out of Islip headed east. It was a tour train of all things, with lots of cars. We walked through them, had to have been at least ten cars, to the last semi-empty one. And we had that open platform to ourselves mostly all the way out to Westhampton. Beautiful.
I also liked the old coaches on diesel express runs down the Babylon Branch. Those stations would just whip by, and it was always a thrill to be taking this "super express" non-stop run from Jamaica to Babylon standing in the last cars vestibule. Many times, the door would be open. Probably the longest stretch of bare-faced railfannin' available in the country. A straight run of about 35 miles. Great for having a smoke or two for the ride....
Right. As in "antipasta." I can understand though why someone might take it the other way. In that case, the term could perhaps also be used to describe a front window that has been covered with paper, cardboard, or other opaque material. Those films or whatever that make the railfan see in triple also qualify as "anti-railfan."
The word you are thinking of is "antipasto" which means before the meal (repast).
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
Now I know. I tried it on the E to Manhattan on Wednesday morning. It looks almost like the view from the railfan window on the Queens-bound E. But that cost me a train-- when I exited at the 34 St station, by the time I walked from the 35 St end of the platform to 33 St, where I was headed, the next E train had pulled into the station.
Also, Queens-bound, I'm usually headed either for the N4 bus at Jamaica or the south end of the Union Tpke station, so being in the front car makes sense for me. I'd hate to miss the bus because I was in the rear car of the train. If I do get on the rear I try to move to the front as I go.
I guess the other difference is that in the front car, the station comes first and one sees all the smiling faces of people who just came off the stairs and see that they are just in the nick of time. One also wonders where another trainload of people is going to fit on an already full train. In the rear car, the station comes last and one sees all the angry faces of folks who just missed the train and have to wait for the next one.
On the (C) and the (N) outside you can still see that quite often from the front.
The possibility does exist. If your T/O is the kind to cut corners to maintain the schedule then he will probably increase speed before the tail of his train clears the PSR, resulting in the guys in the last car whipping around the curve or through the turnout. Most T/O's I have observes do this to some extent.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
Token Booth? What's that? I guess they will have to start to update the signs....
Sometimes the good old days weren't so good.
I also recall that closed stairway at 7 Ave. I think it used to be an exit, but I believe they use that area for storage of equipment and tools.
Jimmy
There are a few of these odd spots around the system. at northern blvd. on the queens blvd line, there's a doorway marked 'emergency exit' that leads down to the express tracks below. it does not go up to the surface (for which the regular exit is just a few feet away).
I wonder where they will put 'the key at the booth' when they eliminate some of the booths...
Not only that, but you have to be sure to return the key to the token booth when you're done. :)
If the header had said the above, would have been here faster. I prefer though to leave the musical subway critiques to our own SteveB 8th Ave Express, I'm tone deaf. The only way I would have noted a defect would be if the bingbongs did like they did back int he 70's, sounding like a busticated 8 track tape ... you know what I mean, Bwwwwwwingbwwwwwong ... I always considered those to be like that annoying doorbell that you want to just find and rip off the wall and be done with it. Then again, I remember LIRR had an annoying BELL that rang like JW's at the door. I see why small arms are banned. Heh.
I heard some really unorthodox door chimes last fall. Instead of the standard E-C, these puppies were much higher, in the G-Eb range.
On the R-142s, the standard pitches are D-Bb, with a marimba-like timbre.
Moo.
wayne
(The image is a video frame from a FedEx commercial. Earlier in the commercial, it showed a train, but I forget which one and I only started recording after the train was gone.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
But I can't think of any places where there are 3 tracks like those in LIRR diesel country.
CG
I don't want to lead everyone off track, but I thought something like Metrolink when I First saw that commercial. I'd be willing to bet I'm wrong.
Perhaps the rest of the commercial makes it clear that it's a low level platform, but not from that picture.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I agree it sure does look like a LIRR station. Within the LIRR, we can also narrow it down:
-It's not the Ronkonkoma BRanch because there is no third rail.
-It looks to be a "new style" high level platform (goose-neck lamps, etc). If that is true (I can't really tell from the photo if they are the goose-neck lamps), that would rule out the Port Jefferson Branch.
-That would leave either the Oyster Bay branch or the Montauk Branch.
I'm going to sort of rule out the Montauk Branch a bit, as the foilage of the trees is not consistent with the south shore, which is more of a pitch pine look, since it is sandier soil.
My guess is it's on the Oyster Bay Branch.
There's no curve at Great River, ahtough the landscape matches.
Forgetting about the goose-neck lamps and trying to rule out the Port Jefferson branch for other reasons, it can't be anything west of Huntington (no third rail). Northport and Port Jeff are out (single platforms), and I think the station area around Smithtown is more built up than the photo. So for the Port Jeff branch that leaves St James, Stony Brook or Greenlawn as possibilities.
All three of those, plus Smithtown, are more built-up than the station surroundings as shown in the picture.
wayne
If it is indeed a low level platform, it's not even possibly the LIRR, so then I'm totally out of the game. If it is the LIRR, it's the Oyster Bay Branch, if we decide it's not the LIRR, I haven't the slightest clue.
---Choo Choo
JV
http://www.theevergreenscemetery.com/directions.htm
The directions on that page indicate that the Broadway/East New York station is your best bet. However the cemetery is quite large and there are two other stations on the L train (Bushwick and Wilson Avenues) that border on the cemetery. If you can figure out where the actual gravesites are in advance, you might find walking from one of those stations to be easier -- or at least your walk back to the subway might be shorter.
Good luck.
CG
Your post reminds me of two other movies I saw recently. "Frida" is the story of Frida Kahlo, who was injured in a streetcar accident in Mexico City. The streetcar is represented, but there are no tracks, and no wire in the sky. Not very convincing to the astute observer.
The second movie is "The Pianist", set in World War II Warsaw. The scenes with streetcars are numerous and real, and by themselves worth the price of admission. The cars depicted seem appropriate for the period. It was filmed in Warsaw and two other cities, presumably in Poland, and very well done.
And "The Black Stallion" has a couple of scenes with a PCC car (in Pittsburgh, I think) running by.
On that subject, I heard through the rumour mill that someone on one of the Toronto forms apparantly posted a bunch of NTSC frame grabs from some movie showing a 'really old' streetcar and asked what kind of streetcar it was. The rumour mill in question kindly forwarded the pictures to me and it was a typical TTC PCC from the 80s. All of a sudden I feel like I'm an old fart. Oh boy I'd better check my birth certificate fast.
-Robert King
The "Hollywood" car was a replica created for the movie.
The tracks were basically painted on the street. They did this sort of thing in another movie in San Francisco, so they could depict cable cars running from one end of Jones Street to the other (and in the filming, the amount of time the runaway cabe car scenes lasted, that thing could have made it all the way to San Mateo....)
I assume you are referring to "Metro"? (starring Eddie Murphy)
I thought that was amusing to see that long stretch of single
track, having been to SF numerous times I knew that the only
single track segments are the ones that pass the cable car barn
(due to one-way streets)
A few Hollywood cars survived to be operated by the old
Los Angeles MTA (predecessor to SCRTD) operating on
the Watts Local until that line died in 1958 or 1959,
those were renumbered in the 1800 series.
If you go to OERM, the Hollywood car that they operate
still has its LAMTA number on the inside.
Similarly, I like Middle Village and Glendale...I walked in these neighbrhoods a few miles on Sunday...but I just couldn't move there, because I work in midtown and all you have is the M. It doesn't go anywhere in Manhattan..pretty much Broad and Wall, but that's all.
I realize the M will be shortened in the Big Realignment next year, but can they do anything to route it over to the west side? I don't have Dougherty's track book on hand right now...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Watch SubTalk for the formal announcement when it's made, some time in 2004.
From their website:
The body shells will be manufactured in ALSTOM’s facilities in Lapa, Brazil, and the cars will be built up and tested in Hornell, New York.
Peace,
ANDEE
So when are they planning on getting around to building that? And how will we know when it is built? They could have already started it.
---Choo Choo
It took me over a decade of riding MARTA to realize what these carvings were!
Ho, ho! And I was wondering if they were supposed to be African or Mayan or something like that. Thanks for keeping me from waiting ten years too, before it all "clicked." :-)
Thanks for posting those!
Mark
For what it's worth, in case anyone else tries it, I used Fuji negative film, ASA 1600, with a f/2.0 lens. Most of the pictures were probably taken at 1/30 or 1/60 sec with the lens wide open. But most of the underground stations are dim enough to be at or below the lower limit of sensitivity of the light meter in my Pentak K1000, so some of the pictures came out underexposed anyway. Next time I try it I'll probably slow down the shutter speed another notch and brace myself very carefully.
And by the way, when I refered to "Arts Center" station I meant "Midtown." My mistake.
Keep up the good work!
Mark
Mark
You know what's funny? There are 200 other people on board your car who speak from direct experience. And so do I. And all of us say you're wrong.
You refer to "direct experience" in your response. Please elaborate! What direct experience do you have regarding the matter?
I said 200 people in the SUBWAY car - not railbuffs - real people with as much commuting experience as you do.
"You refer to "direct experience" in your response. Please elaborate! What direct experience do you have regarding the matter?"
Unless you're comparable in age to me, you haven't been on the subway as many years as I have. By your posts, I'm guessing you're not out of your 20's yet(I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to guess when you joined the TA). I was riding the subway since the 1960's. I spent a lot of time on the East Coast, and even when living in Philly Iwould take the day trip to NY to visit family and friends - and naturally Iused the subway.
I think it's cool you're a T/O. I hope you find your job fulfilling, and I hope you never see a 12-9 or have a jerk for a supervisor.
But unless I'm totally off about your age range (and tell me if I am)I have a lot more time accumulated on the Lex than you do (and every other line - I've ridden every mile of every line except the Franklin Av Shuttle) and I've ridden the subway at all hours (rush hours, nights etc.).
So I know as much about crowds on the Lex as you do. And there are other T/O's, some of whom post here, who have as much time in the cab as you do.
And guess what? Your opinion is in the minority. Now, you're entitled to it, and the fact that you think the SAS is unnecessary doesn't make you stupid or entitle people to call you names etc.
You're also out of touch with opinions up and down the East side, where residents have overwhelmingly asked for SAS to be built. The politicia want it - but this reflects constituent demand, as it should. A politician's job is to represent the people's view to the govt., and in this case, they're doing whjat they should.
You have some relevant experience, no doubt. What I am suggesting, though, is that the way you interpret your experience leads you to the wrong conclusion. In part that's because you only see it from the cab point of view. This is a multidimensional question.
And as to Subtalkers, yes they may like SAS (not all do - look at Simon's posts, for example), but their "railfanning" experience is also valid. They observe conditions on the subway when they ride, and they also know as much as you do about passenger crowding. So even if they cannot operate a train, as you can, their experience, from the passenger point of view, is equal to yours.
And by the way, I moved to Kansas City in January. Not my choice - my wife got recruited to a great job. I need to stay married. Kansas City Transit has some very courteous and helpful bus drivers, who only come by once per hour on most routes. Transit here sucks eggs without even the Hollandaise sauce.
And while I've rode and operated many cattle cars on the Lexington Ave. line, and will be the first to complain when I can't get a seat on the 4 train while traveling to work, I'll admit that the passengers cause many of the delays.
A common problem is this: I'm operating a s/b 6 during the PM rush. We enter 77th st and I know we're going to struggle leaving the station. C/R opens the doors, but he can't get them closed. I look down the length of the train. Everyone is trying to squeeze into the middle of the train. I then look to see if my operating car is full. It's not. And neither is the second car. There's still room on many of these trains. Unfortunately, maximum capacity is not be utilized. I blame the passengers for this.
Arti
Shame on you! Missing an interesting and historical line like that.
>>I need to stay married.<<
I assume you were being sarcastic, but in either case: Sorry to hear that!
Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx are also mostly residential. The state could save a ton of money shutting down all those unneeded subways and els.
I say go for it, and appoint you the titular head of the effort.
I know a lot of people would have to have some choice 4 letter words with you.
Including city planners, construction companies, construction workers, politicians, etc. - the people who will profit from directly from the construction of any big dollar project.
Have they really? Or, is it more that
Since the politicians have been informed by their campaign contributors that the contributors want the subway, the failure of the politicians to deliver it will be grounds for penalties at the next solicitation.
Ron, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that you ever were a New Yorker. Where did the naturally bred cynicism go?
Here's a question for everyone -- speculate on these numbers:
1. % of New York State residents who want a 2nd Avenue Subway built and are willing to fund it through tax $.
2. % of New York City residents who want a 2nd Avenue Subway built and are willing to fund it through tax $.
3. % of Manhattan residents who want a 2nd Avenue Subway built and are willing to fund it through tax $.
4. % of Upper East Side residents who want a 2nd Avenue Subway built and are willing to fund it through tax $.
Without comment on how much each voice should have in the decision, my guesstimates are 1) 15%; 2) 25%; 3) 45%; 4) 65%
CG
1) Should this sort of thing be answered by poll? (Bear in mind that there are 1,001 decisions potentially affecting NYC's commuting life, and none of them are made directly by poll.)
2) If it should, what percentages should trigger ratification? (Bear in mind that a 'yes' or 'no' probably triggers other decision points not being mentioned.)
The 'and are willing to fund it through tax $' is redundant. If you accept that your fare is essentially a kind of tax, then tax dollars are the only way to do anything on transit. Next time you pass a road under construction, ask yourself how THAT was paid for, and whether it was put to a vote of constituents.
Not true of this project.
"Without comment on how much each voice should have in the decision, my guesstimates are 1) 15%; 2) 25%; 3) 45%; 4) 65% "
Try again. I'd say 20%, 65%, 75%, 90%
And the number of people opposed is below 1%.
Cynicism is nice, but it';s also self-serving and hypocritical. Let's face it Charles: the reason I know your post is mostly bullshit is this - if the SAS got cancelled, you would be the first Subtalker to post something like "The people wanted it,, but the greedy campaign contributors didm't want to have a subway running down THEIR street and so they killed it."
That's cynicism for you.
I lived on the UES for about 18 months during 1995-96 and rode the Lex every day. It's crowded and not a particularly fun experience even for a railfan. Many of my neighbors that I spoke to thought the SAS would be a good thing. At the same time, though, I didn't sense an overwhelming urgency from them to "build it at any cost" -- it was more of a sense that it things would be better if we had it. In fact, the neighborhood has pretty much thrived for quite some time without it. That certainly isn't the sentiment on this board -- one can get a warped view of reality by spending too much time on SubTalk.
I didn't mean to imply that the percentages in favor should be used to decide what gets built or not. There is a reason for representative politics and deal-making and it occasionally even works quite well. I am actually quite curious as to what people on SubTalk think versus what the reality is -- I'd also be interested in finding out what reality is, i.e. whether any survey has ever been taken. The point I'd really like to get at is simply wanting something doesn't make it a good investment of tax $$.
I see lots of discussion here about how the SAS would ease crowding on the Lex -- this seems to be the overwhelming reason to build the thing. Cost to build and whether the reduction in crowding is worth the cost don't seem to get much discussion. I think that's because people in general have lost sense of just what a billion dollars is. Thousands, Millions, Billions, it's all the same. I blame baseball players.
There are perhaps 250,000 daily riders of the Lex from 68th and above. If the SAS costs $25 Billion -- that's $100,000 per rider. That's a lot of money to ensure that somebody doesn't have to wait for the next train a couple of times per week. (How many of those riders would gladly take $100K and never say another word about the SAS?)
My opinion of the SAS is unchanged -- indifferent due to lack of complete information. My instinct is that there's far too much pork in the cost and an overstated demand, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
CG
Well, actually if a large % of people do want it and don't object to taxpayer money paying for it, that's a very good reason a priori to build it.
"I see lots of discussion here about how the SAS would ease crowding on the Lex -- this seems to be the overwhelming reason to build the thing."
It's a very important reason, but not the only reason. Subtalk does get warped - I agree with you. Forget Subtalk. If you want a list of all the reasons, call the Manhattan Borough President's office and get the list. Then read it for yourself. Call Congresswoman Maloney's office and listen to her staffers. They will have something to tell you, and it would be benbeficial to hear it. Then you can react as you like.
"Cost to build and whether the reduction in crowding is worth the cost don't seem to get much discussion. I think that's because people in general have lost sense of just what a billion dollars is. Thousands, Millions, Billions, it's all the same. "
You're not giving people enough credit. But I agree that it should be part of the discussion. I myself have taken it into account. I know what it means.
"There are perhaps 250,000 daily riders of the Lex from 68th and above. If the SAS costs $25 Billion -- that's $100,000 per rider"
No Charles, don't play the dishonest game of limiting who gets defined as a Lex rider and who doesn't. That's not your place and it doesn't work with me. SAS affects Lex riders; it potentially affects Bronx IND riders if a connection to the D can be established; it affects Broadway riders; it affects Metro-North riders and encourages more people to ride Metro-North; it affects everybody who lives up and down the East Side.
"My opinion of the SAS is unchanged -- indifferent due to lack of complete information."
That may be; the trouble is you haven't bothered to go get that information. That's what makes your posts self-serving.
"My instinct is that there's far too much pork in the cost and an overstated demand, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise."
Actually, your mind is already made up and you're not going to let any facts bother you one way or the other.
I do like to see intellectual debate, perhaps if there were more of it on this topic I'd get my facts and form an opinion one way or the other. (But probably not.)
What I see on SubTalk is:
Reasons to build -- The Lex is really crowded. They've been saying they're going to build it for 3000 years.
Reasons not to build -- It's going to cost too much and we don't really need it.
Is not. Is too. Is not. Is too.
Perhaps it's because most SubTalkers have just made up their mind that the SAS must be a good thing, but it's too bad, because I think there has been meaningful discussion of things like AirTrain, LGA access, Farley and ESA. But for some reason, there's just this assumption that the SAS is a great and necessary thing. Which is very interesting, because there are few neighborhoods in NYC which have more consistently thrived over the past 20 years than the UES -- which did this all without the SAS.
I don't see how my posts could be self-serving -- what benefit could I possibly get from posting a couple of questions on SubTalk. I've paid my taxes and I'm quite resigned to the fact that if they don't build the SAS they'll build a super-collider in Kansas that won't benefit me at all or pay some farmers to grow tobacco -- at least I'll get to railfan the SAS.
I'm a contrarian by nature. When I haven't formed an opinion on a subject, I find it best to question the direction of the crowd -- if there's no logical support for how the crowd is reacting, then usually the minority opinion plays out as the better choice. It's a philosophy that has served me quite well in all facets of life.
CG
Lack of dissent may be the best guide of all why the SAS is needed. The project's been poking around for about 80 years, through many different administrations of all political stripes, and in all that time no mayor or other high official has seriously questioned the concept. That the SAS is urgently needed is basically a fundamental assumption of New York politics. Nor has it been a "wish list" type of thing, but rather a project that's considered to be worth a considerable amount of money (the availability of that money, that's the rub).
As for the Upper East Side's prosperity in the absense of the SAS, I have no explanation either. It is puzzling.
1. The triumph of image over substance.
2. Zoning.
Numerous quasi-luxury high rises have been built on York, 1st, and 2nd Aves on the UES in the last 50 years, replacing former tenements, despite the long hike to the subway.
By contrast, the western parts of the east village (very convenient to Astor Place and especially the superb subway hub at Union Square) saw a much slower gentrification based on renovation of existing tenements.
Why the difference?
- The UES had a reputation of being desireable. People would pay extra just to be able to say the live on the UES, even if they had a long hike to the subway. The image was a classic 6 on Park Ave; the substance was a poorly built exorbitantly priced 1 bedroom in a white brick high rise on 1st Ave.
- The UES, for various historical reasons, has had higher density zoning than the UWS or the east village. So builders could build more, and the people came. In the east village, and to a lesser degree on the UWS, the process was slowed by the zoning rules. So the UES was the only place where lots of new "luxury" apartments were available.
About the same time all that was being done, and other tenaments north of 49th St. on First and Second were starting to be replaced or gentrafied, was the same time the first bond issue for the SAS came about, so a lot of post-WWII construction there was based on spec that the Third Ave. el would be gone and a modern Second Ave. subway would replace it. Since work had just been completed on the Euclid extension of the IND, there was no reason at that time to doubt the el would be replaced by a subay line. Live and learn...
But you don't mind spending time posting about it. The time expenditure is the same (and you can even use email these days, though I usually use the Postal Service with elected officials).
What I see on SubTalk is:
"Reasons to build -- The Lex is really crowded. They've been saying they're going to build it for 3000 years.
Reasons not to build -- It's going to cost too much and we don't really need it.
Is not. Is too. Is not. Is too. "
LOL! Yes, I can't argue that one. OK - you win that one. Ishould point out, though,,m that I have elucidated other reasons. Also, please read Stephen Baumann's post regarding public opinion (where he answered your post).
"But for some reason, there's just this assumption that the SAS is a great and necessary thing. Which is very interesting, because there are few neighborhoods in NYC which have more consistently thrived over the past 20 years than the UES -- which did this all without the SAS."
"Thrived" is a judgment call and a matter of opinion. I think the neighborhoods are doing OK but the residents have clearly stated they want subway service on Second Avenue. So the fact that you think the neighborhood's thriving without it is beside the point.
"I'm a contrarian by nature. When I haven't formed an opinion on a subject, I find it best to question the direction of the crowd -- if there's no logical support for how the crowd is reacting, then usually the minority opinion plays out as the better choice. It's a philosophy that has served me quite well in all facets of life. "
And that's cool, even beneficial to the crowd. But if you haven't done your homework, and you don't at least have some essential facts with you, or you're asking questions that have been answered many times and you didn't listen, then that reflects poorly on you, not on the crowd.
CG
I don't mind posting about it here because that's what SubTalk is -- at least to me -- an informal gathering of people to discuss issues about transit. I'm not going to waste some TA employee's time answering a letter that I haven't thoroughly researched on a subject that I don't give much of a hoot about.
"LOL! Yes, I can't argue that one. OK - you win that one. "
As long as you throw me a bone once in a while Ron... It keeps me coming back for more.
""Thrived" is a judgment call and a matter of opinion. ..."
Yes, it is. But I think one would be hard-pressed to support an opinion that the UES has not thrived. I'd be awfully curious as to what such a person would use as an example of a neighborhood that is thriving. One might argue that the neighborhood would have been even better with the SAS -- there are arguments for and against that. But I think the argument that the SAS is NECESSARY for the UES is one that is quite suspect.
"And that's cool, even beneficial to the crowd. But if you haven't done your homework, and you don't at least have some essential facts with you, or you're asking questions that have been answered many times and you didn't listen, then that reflects poorly on you, not on the crowd. "
I think you're losing track of where we are. This is SubTalk. I've taken a momentary interest in the SAS and am asking some questions about whether it's really necessary. People are free to answer those questions, ignore them or tell me to bug off. I don't see how asking questions reflects poorly on me.
I could see where if -- without having done all the necessary research --I were out leading a protest against the SAS or getting myself into the media claiming the SAS was a bad investment, I could understand the opinion that I was being irresponsible or that I was doing something that reflected poorly upon me, but posting questions on SubTalk?
CG
I actually did not actually say the UES wasn't thriving. But its thriving does not negate the subway.
"One might argue that the neighborhood would have been even better with the SAS -- there are arguments for and against that. But I think the argument that the SAS is NECESSARY for the UES is one that is quite suspect."
If the residents want it, and have asked their elected representatives to support it, and it is beneficial to others in New York (Lex riders, Bronx riders etc. etc.) who have asked their elected officials to support it (and these are are all true statements, BTW), then I conclude it is necessary to build it. Is politics mixed into this? (Is this a democracy?) Sure.
"I think you're losing track of where we are."
No, I didn't lose track at all.
"This is SubTalk."
Yes, and it is harmless. But an unsupported argument is still an unsupported argument. To give one example, Stephen Baumann writes some very elegantly written theoretical treatises here. One of the reasons I like them is because he makes clear where they come from. It's informal sure, but misidentifying Poisson would be just as stupid here as it would in a classroom (except that you might get fired there).
You are freely entitled to advance anything you want, of course. But just because this is Subtalk doesn't mean that nobody is evaluating what you post. The practical consequences are nil, I agree.
On the other hand, I have used Subtalk to refine and modify arguments and turn them into ideas and proposals and testimony that has gone elsewhere and made a difference. I am appreciative that others have taken those ideas seriously.
I'd guess that the percentages are all quite a bit lower, about half of your guess, except maybe for the last one. Most people follow the "what's in it for me" policy with respect to spending on public works projects. In other words, people who won't themselves derive a direct benefit from a particular project aren't likely to support higher taxes even though they may acknowledge the project's usefulness to many other people. It's just basic human nature.
Of course, the SAS that they voted for extended beyond Manhatan. :-)
I have. According to TA reports, the the Lex will not be operating at capacity for the projected use in 2020 under the no build option.
(All passenger counts based on 2000 readings.)
You're welcome to argue against a 2nd Avenue subway, but you might be more convincing if you argued based on actual facts.
21 tph.
In any case, that's 23 or 21 tph of very crowded locals. Most of those people are traveling between Manhattan and Manhattan -- hardly the picture the OP paints.
I'm using the figures presented in Table 5B-2 from the SEIS for the SAS. The footnote claims data from 1999, 2001 and 2002. I suppose they have to create a perceived overcrowding some way. Cutting service is one method to achieve this.
From 10a-4p, it's 15 TPH with Pelham and Parkchester each working on 8 min headways to provide 4 min headways south of Parkchester. At the height of PM rush, I'm only aware of 18 TPH on Lexington Ave.
Again, nobody has made the argument that the SAS in needed for non-rush hour service. Therefore, all arguments are centered around the peak periods, even if they do not explicitly state so.
The SAS smost badly needed for rush hours, but your statement is false. SAS would be useful for other times as well. Part of this comes from service to neighborhoods which the Lex doesn't serve well, esp. when it shifts west to Park Avenue.
The facts I would actually like to see are a study that estimates the number of person hours of time saved per billion dollars of cost for each of the following projects:
- SAS Stubway
- Hillside Ave extension
- SAS balance, given that stubway is already built
My suspicion (unfortunately not based on facts) is that they would come out in the order above (from best to worst).
- SAS Stubway
- Hillside Ave extension
- SAS balance, given that stubway is already built "
But this is only one metric. And the hypothesis that a Hillside extension (which I like very much, by the way) is more efficient than the SAS does not preclude one from building the SAS, because they feed different, though somewhat connected markets. Comparing the SAS Stubway to the full-length subway is appropriate, but again, we need to be more than one-imensional about it.
Have you written to MTA about a Hillside Extension? I bet MTA could extend the F line by at least a couple of miles before having o deal with NIMBY issues.
Also, how about extending the J subway to at least Archer and Merrick?
The savings generated by a Hillside Ave extension will be due to eliminating unnecessary bus mileage. There are very little savings to be generated by extending the Archer Ave Subway 6 blocks.
OK, then how about half a mile?
I'm sure the merchants would like that.
You yourself were whining about the subway no longer reaching 168 St.
Although I have a good idea which one it is, are you talking about Utica/Fulton, Utica/Eastern Parkway or Utica/Kings Highway?
It's probably not the third one :-) but it still might be the other two.
Now that's a curveball if I ever saw one, as there is no subway station at Utica/Kings Highway.
If I know Piggy, there'll be an abandoned station on the Bay Ridge LIRR about there.
Well that's why it couldn't have been the one David was referring to!
Nah, all those people who live there don't need a subway < /sarcasm >
(Tear down of the Astoria El exempted of course).
I HOPE YOU ARE NOT SERIOUS?!
hmmmmm
N Bwy
Astoria
It's a stretch of logic to assume that an LGA extension is needed more. Approximately 16,000 passengers would use such a service. That's fewer than 3 million passengers per year entering at an LGA station. That puts in the same category as Lefferts Blvd.
What you should do is postulate criteria for evaluating a project's necessity. Both the SAS and LGA would flunk any objective critera.
Untrue. I have it on good authority that the people in LaGuaira, Venezuela strongly support better airport access.
This board is no stranger to hyperbolae, but "would flunk any objective criteria" suggests that no reasonable person could conceivably argue that the SAS was necessary. Such a ridiculous comment (far stronger than the a more measured "I personally oppose the SAS, for XYZ reasons") is unanswerable, since the writer patently lacks any sense of perspective.
Of course, it depends what the writer means by "necessary." There are thousands of cities and towns in America, and only a handful of them have any subway system at all. So I suppose it could be argued that, by any objective criteria, all subways are unnecessary, since clearly a majority of Americans endure life without them. If *that's* what the writer means by necessity, then I suppose I agree with him. Life would indeed go on without a subway system. It would also go on if we froze the system as it is.
But assuming you accept the premise--as most people do--that mass transit is a part of densely populated urban life, the SAS is probably the most urgently needed expansion to the system, given that the Lex is saturated already, and the LIRR's East Side Access project will tax it even more.
What if you could upgrade the Lex from its current 25 tph on each track to 40 tph for $2 billion? This is not a sure thing but not out of the question.
Is the SAS needed then?
If you mean, "Could the Lex absorb the additional incoming ridership due to LIRR East Side Access," the answer would appear to be "yes." The MESA study evaluated this in some detail, and they concluded it was not possible without reducing Lexington Avenue service for long periods of time during construction. Also--although I know AIM feels otherwise--the SAS is intended to bring better mass transit service to areas far east of Lexington Avenue, and no expansion of the Lex itself can do that.
I never said I feel otherwise. I was asking the question because the discussion was so strongly focused on Lex capacity, and there are potentially other ways to address that.
That answers only one of the SAS' proposed functions.
Is the SAS needed then?
The major cost will be additional rolling stock - which would also be required for the SAS. 41 additional trainsets would be required to provide 40 tph on the express and local in Manhattan. That cost would be less than $1 billion.
The additional cost for proven technology that would permit T/O's and C/R's to easily keep to a schedule would be in the $20 million range to install in 100 stations. They should be able to hide that in the extra rolling stock cost.
What would the effect be on current leave load levels? The express currently maxes out at 118% of service load level according TA supplied data. This would reduce it to 83%. The local currently maxes out at 98%. This would reduce it to 51% of service load level. Plenty of room for growth.
BTW, using proven technology to get service levels to up to 40 tph on both the local and express would provide an additional 31 tph. The SAS will provide only 30 tph.
Unless the "proven technology" includes converting the Lexington Avenue Line to BMT/IND clearances (yes, I know the part above 42nd Street is built to Triborough specifications, but it's not usable in that form at the moment), we're talking about 31 IRT trains vs. 30 BMT/IND trains. The 30 BMT/IND trains win, hands down.
David
However, I did point out that 40 tph would reduce leave load levels to very gererous levels, even if they were in IRT cars.
:0)
The Lex is not saturated. It operates at 2/3's the capacity of other subway systems. It opereates at 3/4's the capacity of its own operation from previous years.
If the Lex were to run the number of trains they previously ran, then there would be no overcrowding and no need perceptible need for an SAS from the passengers' perspective.
Of course, there is money to be made in a $13 billion dollar construction project. Operating the Lex at previous service levels won't provide the fringe benefits derived from building and administering a multibillion project.
I'm aware of that. That's why I'm critical of the TA's choice of CBTC.
I'm not proposing a CBTC based system to increase service levels. It can be implemented on an incremental basis with benefits imediately derived on the segments were it is implemented. Yes, it is implemented on other subway systems and it does permit 40 tph opertion.
Well, I'll pass all this on to the folks working on CBTC and ATS. I do like to point out to them every now and then how the buzzards are circling, and there will be plenty of folks to testify at the hearings if it doesn't work. I'm told engineers work better under pressure.
There is one fair criticism of engineers -- they care very much about how good it is, and very little about how much it costs, because they are primarily concerned with what is in front of them and not with alternative uses of the money (opportunity cost). In the long run that attitude seems to pay off. On Jeopardy, if the answer was "Washington Roebling" would the question be "Who is the guy who over-ran his budget?" or "Who is the engineer who supervised the building of the Brooklyn Bridge?"
We'll see about CBTC in 2004 or early 2005. Nothing you have said about CBTC could not have also been said about Metrocard a decade ago. And who wants to go back? The relay-based system is going to be replaced by something, because it keeps getting more and more difficult and expensive to maintain and buy parts.
The general sense is if you have a 50 year investment costing $billions, you replace it with something better. Aside from criticizing, who can lay out a vision for an alternative signal system that will be used from 2040 to 2090, based on its installation from 2000 to 2040? Think about it, 2040 to 2090! Would you really recommend the same signal system as in 1920?
Arti
The plan is for three "pilot projects" with both fixed block and CBTC. The Canarsie, a two track line with no merges. The Flushing, a three track line with no merges. And the Culver, a three-four track line with merges and diverges.
If it all works, subsequent lines would not have fixed block signalling. Note, however, that subsequent lines would therefore be unable to use pre-R142 cars unless some of the older cars could be retrofit, so the transition is long and complex.
Arti
There are a few points regarding a project's cost. First, the customer should specify a maximum cost in the RFP. The TA can't expect the competitive bidding process to work in its favor. There are too few companies and the documents that a prospcective bidder has to fill out are 1/2 inch thick.
Second, research and development are the expensive and difficult to estimate. The theory has been to amortize it over millions of sales. That's not possible with rapid transit because there are very few customers and very little demand
Third, many times customers will think that an inexpensive device will not perform as well as an expensive one. I started using PC's for factory floor automation around 1985. The PC cost about $3500 but a special purpose computer cost $25,000. Our tests showed that the PC was more robust than the so-called industrial special purpose computers. There was a lot of resistance to accepting a "consumer" product.
Nothing you have said about CBTC could not have also been said about Metrocard a decade ago.
The Metrocard was not accepted by consumers. They had to be bribed into using it through discounted fares. The same discounts would have been possible without a Metrocard system.
The relay-based system is going to be replaced by something, because it keeps getting more and more difficult and expensive to maintain and buy parts.
Various types of solid-state relay replacements have been around since the late 1970's. I've not been the one who has advocated retaining mechanical relays.
who can lay out a vision for an alternative signal system that will be used from 2040 to 2090, based on its installation from 2000 to 2040? Think about it, 2040 to 2090! Would you really recommend the same signal system as in 1920?
The laws of physics are the same as they were in the 1920's. The trains have pretty much the same operating characteristics. Any signal system will pretty much perform identically so far as safety and service levels are conserned. An updated solid-state fixed block based system will have pertty much identical performance as a CBTC based system. We used have a saying back when I worked in aerospace: if it works it's not sophisticated.
There's one thing that I can state with almost certainty: whatever is purchased today will be obsolete in 10 years. Replacement parts will be difficult to obtain in 15 years. The system will have to be junked in 20 years. This will be more so with CBTC because everything is "boutique".
Perhaps we'll be posting then, and we can see if you are right. If that is the case, it will be very bad given the cost of replacement signal systems.
Even on a 50 year replacement cycle, the cost of replacing signal systems may be more than the city can support. One fiftieth of the interlockings and track miles is slightly less than the Concourse job, and based on the Concourse job (which IS fixed block) it's $150 million per year in today's dollars. I'm hoping that electronics will bring the cost DOWN by increasing the number of potential suppliers as the old railroad signal market shrinks and the electronics and telecommunications industry grows.
Let's see. 50 years ago you just bought a brand new TV based on the RCA 630 chassis. It had vacuum tubes, high voltage electolytic capacitors, specially wound inductors. You can't find replacement parts anywhere.
Think in terms of a 20-25 year lifetime. The devices must be priced accordingly.
Arti
This is true. The military has begun to use "off the shelf" electronics for this very reason.
Actually, at least one "off the shelf" component has been in usefor over 25 years. The 8080 microprocessor, immediate predecessor to the IBM PC's brain, was at the heart of the F-14's AWG-9 radar and missile guidance system. My wife wrote some of the assembler code for it.
"The Metrocard was not accepted by consumers. They had to be bribed into using it through discounted fares. The same discounts would have been possible without a Metrocard system."
But much more difficult to implement in a manner that could produce a lot of useful information about rides. Bank ATM cards were not accepted at first either, until "value added" services were introduced for them. Now they are ubiquitous.
The Metrocard is the first device employed by NYC Transit that can actually help track a person's ride; whether or not the TA fully exploits this information I don't know. I do know that NYPD has used MetroCard information to confirm or refute alibis of criminal suspects and reconstruct their movements. This is of great value to us also.
"An updated solid-state fixed block based system will have pertty much identical performance as a CBTC based system."
Since you have little experience working with CBTC you have little basis on which to make such a claim.
"We used have a saying back when I worked in aerospace: if it works it's not sophisticated."
This has stopped being true, in stages, since the 1980's. It seems your obsolescence in trains is spilling over into other areas.
No the military used the 8080M, which was the mil-spec version of the 8080A. It came in a ceramic package, instead of the poor man's plastic. It cost $500 instead of $100.
Those chips are really hard to come by now. Some of Intel's interface chips are even harder to find. Writing stuff like that in assembler is another path to cost overruns. Although there weren't many other options in those days. Today's problem is that one can't just take the code and run it on another microprocessor. BTW, when the 8086 came out, Intel supplied an assembler that would convert 8080 code to 8086 code. Of course, 8086 and 8088's are also hard to find.
The CBTC stuff is going to have the same problem only worse. Everything has to interface with the "Neuron" chip. The supply problem should become even worse because a lot more 8080's were produced.
"An updated solid-state fixed block based system will have pertty much identical performance as a CBTC based system."
Since you have little experience working with CBTC you have little basis on which to make such a claim.
CBTC will have to work with the same rolling stock operating characteristics and the same passenger arrival times. It will not change these. That's what determines a signal system's performance.
I design system software for a living, and this kind of rapid change in technology is something we live with in spades (software components are often obsoleted after lives of only months).
The way we deal with it is good system architecture. Good well specified interfaces between different functional components, so that we can swap out one component without affecting all the others. After a while you may well end up with the apocryphal broom thats had 5 handles and 6 brushes.
Surely a similar technique in hardware can be used to isolate the signalling system (seen as a whole) from technology changes affecting different components.
If that can be, and is, done then there is no reason why a signalling system cannot be incrementally updated and last until a step change in current practice renders the over-arching architecture obsolete.
I think that brings us back to the argument as to whether this has already happened to the current fixed-block signalling system (hence the need to replace it with CBTC) or not.
You must be thinking of aerospace engineers. When I was in school we were taught that when solving an engineering problem, the first thing to do was to figure out how to obtain a desired result, and the second thing was to figure out was how to get that same result with the least expense.
Tom
Tell that to that guy who designed the kludge called "serial cradle" for my Handspring.
Arti
Where gold contacts are necessary, tin is never acceptable. It all depends upon the application. I have many consumer items that stop working after five or six years specifically because cheaper materials were used.
Tom
Show me the proof that the Lex as presently designed could operate *safely* 50% more trains than it does today. (That is, if it's operating at 2/3's of the capacity of other subway systems, then it would take a 50% increase to get it to 3/3rds.) Who figured that out? What were the engineering assumptions? Who validated that it could be done, and what was their background? Had they done this before, or had they any training in the subject? Otherwise, I assume this is an Alice in Wonderland story.
From the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS, page 9D-12, "The current NYCT signal system on the Lexington Avenue line is designed to allow 90-second headways, including a 30-second allowance for station dwell times.."
90-second headways translates to 40 tph.
From the Second Avenue Subway SDEIS, page 5B-4 Table 5B-2, they are current service levels are 21 tph on the local and 28 tph on the express.
The current combined total is: 21 + 28 = 49 tph. The signal system permits 40 + 40 = 80 tph. Current operations constitute 49/80 = 61.25% of safe capacity.
Had they done this before,
The Moscow subway currently operates at 43 tph. The Moscow Metro uses a conventional block system, similar to New York's. Line 14 of the Paris Metro operates at 90-second headways. This is a new system with a CBTC signal system.
The TA has previously operated 34 tph on the express and 30 tph on the local on the Lex. This corresponds to a combined total of 64 tph making today's 49 tph roughly 75% of that service level.
Otherwise, I assume this is an Alice in Wonderland story.
Perhaps, the SAS' raison d'etre is the Alice in Wonderland story. :-)
Passengers cannot sue the Moscow Metro in the event of injury or other untoward event.
Passengers will sue and collect in the event of injury or other untoward event from the TA, even though they are operating at 28tph or 21 tph or 15 tph. :-)
Passengers did not sue the BRT, when they were operating 66 tph over the Brooklyn Bridge because safety was never compromised. Passengers did not sue the BOT, when they operated 42 tph on the Third Ave El because the BOT did not give them an opportunity.
Your perceived risk of rear-end collisions as a function of increased service levels is groundless. The reverse is also false - reducing service levels actually increases the risk rear-end collisions, when measures are not taken to reduce headway variability.
Unfortunatley, in today's litigious society, the TA can not afford to open itself up to lawsuits. You can't do things the "old way" anymore.
:0)
The TA cannot afford to have rear-end collisions. They never could. No operating agency can or did.
The TA's contention is that simply operating fewer trains decreases the probabliltiy for rear-end collisions. It actually increases that risk.
{ducks}
90-second headways translates to 40 tph.)
The people who operate the system daily, and those in OP, say they cannot add trains to the express without risking a daily event (only requires a one in 200 chance to occur during rush hour) that leads to a massive chain-reaction service meltdown. Thoughtful people are now trying to come up with improvements to add four or so TPH, but there are bottlenecks due to safety slowdowns, dwell time at GCT, the three-train overlap at Nostrand Junction and the terminal at Flatbush.
As for the local, due to the need to empty trains at Brooklyn Bridge, they back up south of Canal Street as it is. I know, I've been on them. Same problem on the west side at South Ferry -- a loop should allow a faster turnaround, but the need to move passengers off prevents this.
You need a theory of motivation. Why this vast conspiracy? Why would people say that the Signal Control Line modifications put in place after the Williamsburg Bridge accident reduced speed and capacity if it were not so?
Because the MTA wants to build the Second Avenue? The MTA wanted to build the Stubway, so they could reduce the loading on the Lex at a low cost by running an existing service -- the Q -- 10 mintues further down the line. The elected officials demanded the construction of a full length line. Having actually been there, I can tell you that TA people are almost entirely focused on making the existing system work better and achieving "state of good repair", not on system expansions.
If Nostrand Jct is really a problem, why not get rid of the problem by running all 4s and 5s to Utica and New Lots. Make Flatbush to E Side riders change trains at Franklin just like 6 riders have to change at 125th for an express.
As for the local, due to the need to empty trains at Brooklyn Bridge, they back up south of Canal Street as it is. I know, I've been on them.
Can you explain? Riders need not get off at BB. I've seen trains with dwell time under 30 seconds at BB.
Same problem on the west side at South Ferry -- a loop should allow a faster turnaround, but the need to move passengers off prevents this.
Again, please explain. Dwell time at SF should exceed 30-45 secs.
Because Flatbush is just so much more popular a terminal.
And if the electorate wants it, that's legitimate.
"Having actually been there, I can tell you that TA people are almost entirely focused on making the existing system work better and achieving "state of good repair", not on system expansions."
Yes, that will continue to be their most important concern. And when the system is expanded, the new line will enter that maintenance schedule. The TA is not against expansion.
I still do no understand why the TA feels that it is necessary to empty a train that is immediately going to relay and resume service. The impact to inattentive passengers is that they start backtracking, but that is minor compared to the train backups along the line.
The line passes under City Hall. Giliani demanded that the trains be emptied as one of the security measures that seemed insane before 9/11, to prevent someout setting off a bomb under City Hall.
It's a fairly stupid gesture. There is nothing to prevent somebody from placing a bomb on a train and exploding it by remote control.
So, one must now spend $13 billion to build the SAS because the TA takes 3 minutes to empty a train at Brooklyn Bridge.
Let me make a no cost proposal. Let the occupants of City Hall and the Tweed Courthouse (the new Bd of Ed) trade buildings. The subway will now avoid the seat of government. Nobody would be upset if somebody blew up the Bd of Ed headquarters. Some politians have even advocated it.
Well, I agree about halfway. The policy does have some substantive benefit. A remote control bomb requires more sophistication than a suicide bomb. Also, if all passengers are required to exit, there's a good likelihood that the train crew would notice any package left behind.
"So, one must now spend $13 billion to build the SAS because the TA takes 3 minutes to empty a train at Brooklyn Bridge."
The SAS has been recognized as needed since the 1920s, long before the Giuliani era. The city's growth is dependent on continuing to enhance its transit infrastructure. In lieu of building the SAS, and other necessary transit projects, the city built roads, bridges and tunnels instead -- thanks to Robert Moses. It is pretty widely recognized now that that strategy has taken us as far as it can (and arguably went farther than it should have). Time for another paradigm. And anyhow, the SAS's benefits are not confined to relieving congestion on the Lex, nor in fact have you offered a plausible way of doing so.
"Nobody would be upset if somebody blew up the Bd of Ed headquarters."
If the rest of your comments have as much factual basis as this one does, no wonder so few people believe them.
However, (a) numerous posters have said that riders are allowed on the trains through the loop, (b) numerous posters including myself have gone through the loop since 9/11 without problems, and (c) some trains spend less than 30 seconds at BB before departing.
On the other hand, certainly some 6 trains spend an inordinate amount of time at BB.
Looks like the 6 is constrained because there isn't a consistent policy on how to handle passengers at BB.
The 40 tph capacity guarantees no slow downs. This capacity figure is not like that of an information channel. In that case, if the source is trying to put more than the channel capacity rate through the channel, then nothing gets through. The most horrible thing that will happen with more than 40 tph will be that trains will experience yellow and red signals. The system will not implode or explode on itself. Trains will move, no heroic rescues will be required.
As I remember the 1 in 200 chance comes from the following observations. The existing standard deviation for station dwell time is around 20 seconds. A schedule operating at 30 tph will be operating at the mean + 2 standard deviations. Therefore a 60 second delay will be 3 standard deviations away from the mean and will not occur for 99.5% of the time. The 60 second delay, which is 1/2 the scheduled headway, corresponds to the TA's own metric for schedule regularity. The TA's performance goal is 80% for its own metric.
Clearly, 40 tph operation would not be feasible, if the TA maintained is current operating practices. The key to reliable operation is in reducing variability of the process. That's what they do in Moscow. They give the operators an indication of how well they are on schedule at each station. This permits them to make minor adjustments and thereby reduce the variablilty. N.B. trains that are at or near 90 second headways with respect to one another will not encounter any red or yellow aspects. The key is in reducing process variability.
Thoughtful people are now trying to come up with improvements to add four or so TPH, but there are bottlenecks due to safety slowdowns, dwell time at GCT, the three-train overlap at Nostrand Junction and the terminal at Flatbush.
The process control principles that apply for 40 tph operation also apply to 30 or 32 tph operation.
Unless a "safety slowdown" consists of a complete stop and a wait of 30 seconds, it should not be a bottleneck. The proposal I made with costs avoids the Nostrand Junction by turning the extra trains at Bowling Green. There have been other published studies on how to reduce the problems of the Nostrand Junction without recourse to new capital expenditures.
As for the local, due to the need to empty trains at Brooklyn Bridge, they back up south of Canal Street as it is. I know, I've been on them. Same problem on the west side at South Ferry -- a loop should allow a faster turnaround, but the need to move passengers off prevents this.
There is no need to remove passengers at South Ferry. There is no operational necessity at Brooklyn Bridge either.
You need a theory of motivation. Why this vast conspiracy? Why would people say that the Signal Control Line modifications put in place after the Williamsburg Bridge accident reduced speed and capacity if it were not so?
Why are they unwilling to show any theoretical, mathematical argument to prove their hypothesis? I've read the theoretical basis for capacity, slow orders are not part of the equation.
This appears to be a quotation out of context. The same study explained why the present configuration will not support 40 tph. There are capacity constraints at the terminals, and choke points where the Lex splits or merges into other lines. Also, at rush hour dwell times regularly exceed 30 seconds at certain stations.
At no point in history has anyone competent suggested that the Lex could run 80 tph (40 each on local and express). There have been long periods of time when no Second Avenue Subway was even remotely on the horizon, and never was this attempted.
"The Moscow subway currently operates at 43 tph. The Moscow Metro uses a conventional block system, similar to New York's."
How fast can they turn trains at the terminals? Does Moscow have the same type of split and merge constraints? What are station dwell times?
"The TA has previously operated 34 tph on the express and 30 tph on the local on the Lex."
Is this safe by modern standards? Apparently you doubt this yourself, as in another post you proposed rehabilitating the signals at 100 IRT stations for a paltry $200,000 per station. Look at the MTA's capital program to see what re-signaling really costs. For instance, re-signaling the Concourse Line had a cost of $191 million.
Moscow's system is diagrammatically much simpler than New York's. It's closest comparator here would be Washington Metrorail, though I think even Metrorail splits and merges more.
It is a marvelous system (and gorgeous). It carries 10 million passengers a day (at least thaoose were the numbers a couple of years ago).
"Look at the MTA's capital program to see what re-signaling really costs. For instance, re-signaling the Concourse Line had a cost of $191 million."
Signalling costs are enormous. The cost of digging the tunnels in Sunnyside Yard, and drilling with a TBM from 2nd Av/63rd Streetto GCT for the LIRR ESA program, together, will be only $150 million. The rest of the project is station, platform, track, power and signaling. Stephen hasnt a clue about all this stuff (but he's good on theory).
Yes, signaling is incredibly expensive. But isn't a large portion of the ESA cost the physical construction that can't be done by the TBM? After all, they're adding in new tracks and possibly new platforms underneath existing buildings on one side of Park Ave in the 40s and 50s.
That sounds reasonable. I believe (and I don't know this for a fact 100%, so feel free to weigh in) that the order of expense from highest to lowest in tunnel creation is:
1. Drill and blast (esp. through solid rock - Washington Metrorail's Green Line had this issue)- this just takes long, and involves many workers, and you have safety procedures mandatory with explosives
2. Cut and cover, especially where you have multilevel structures)
3. TBM
Now, any time you have to underpin buildings, you add to the cost. With the ESA project, the MTA chose to use a deeper tunnel using a TBM in part because a shallower option would have required the underpinning of several buildings (and would have created more surface disruption). There's a nice discussion of that in the ESA EIS documents.
Your points are well taken.
The quotation is not out of context. The question was can the system operate 40 tph safely. This quote from the TA does not question the safety of 40 tph operation with the existing safety signal system.
There are capacity constraints at the terminals, and choke points where the Lex splits or merges into other lines. Also, at rush hour dwell times regularly exceed 30 seconds at certain stations.
These are not safety concerns, they are capacity concerns. Given that the signal system will guarantee safe operation at 40 tph, are there strategies that can be employed to address these capacity concerns?
Terminal constraints depend on a terminal's topology. Loops offer no additional capacity constraint. Terminal capacity is determined by the amount of time the train takes to negotiate the crossover for other terminals. The usual way to handle this problem is to have two or more branches. Turning 40 tph is difficult at most terminals, however turning 20 tph at two different terminals is relatively easy.
Splits and merges with other lines do not offer an additional capacity constraint provided a sensible schedule is established and maintained. This even holds for a full grade crossing such as at Lenox and 138th St or at Bway&Myrtle Ave.
Rush hour dwell time averages and standard deviations decrease with headways. A average 30-second dwell time at 20 tph service levels will be closer to a 15-second dwell time at 40 tph operation. Similarly, one would expect the dwell time standard deviation for 40 tph operation to be reduced to 70% of that for 20 tph operation.
At no point in history has anyone competent suggested that the Lex could run 80 tph (40 each on local and express). There have been long periods of time when no Second Avenue Subway was even remotely on the horizon, and never was this attempted.
Combined 80 tph operation is probably not warranted. However, combined 64 tph operation has been operated in the past. A return to this level will increase current capacity by 33%.
How fast can they [Moscow] turn trains at the terminals?
There has been a link to a track map for the Moscow system within the last couple of weeks in one of the messages in this board. The system closely resembles Paris in its topology.
Does Moscow have the same type of split and merge constraints?
As mentioned above, splits and merges should not introduce additional capacity constraints.
What are station dwell times?
25 - 30 seconds, according to a description in the "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual" from the National Research Council's Transportation Research Board, page 3-9.
Is this safe by modern standards?
According to NYCT, their signal system is safe. According to NYCT their signal system is capable of safe operation at 40 tph.
Apparently you doubt this yourself, as in another post you proposed rehabilitating the signals at 100 IRT stations for a paltry $200,000 per station. Look at the MTA's capital program to see what re-signaling really costs. For instance, re-signaling the Concourse Line had a cost of $191 million.
You misinterpreted my remarks. The $200K per station cost is not safety related and will not rehabilitate signals. Its purpose is to implement the successful strategy employed by the Moscow subway to operate trains at 40 tph. I actually believe that I've over-estimated the cost of the necessary station equipment by a factor of 5 to 10 because I would be dealing with the MTA.
No.
"As mentioned above, splits and merges should not introduce additional capacity constraints."
What is this claim based on? Moscow has spent money to build turnaround tracks to split operationaly line 11 from line 3 as recently as 1995 - this was treated as a priority project, ahead of some urgent new construction. More recently, it was decided to abandon the experiment with the turnaround of some trains on line 7 in the middle of the run (it was done for the benefit of the passengers boarding at intermediate stations) - turned out that with high frequency operation the number of delays due to the different routing of trains was unacceptably high. Since this is the large system with the most experience running high frequency schedule, and since it seems to have found even a minimal number of splits/mergers hard to manage, it would seem that these do, in practice, add capacity constraints. Even the 32 tph planned for a new branch operation to be opened soon is considered controversial there - and that involves a low passenger traffic line, with short trains on the main segment and very short trains on the branch.
There is no logical reason why this must automatically be true. Stephen are fabricating again.
You did very well to expose his other errors.
This is also the point where the nightly maintenance window of 4 hours plays a role - at the price of denying the late-night Muscovites the subway ride home: there are, indeed, fewer rush hour delays there.
Indeed. Anyone who has been on a highway that is near its saturation point knows this. Someone slowing down for a second can intiate a chain reaction that leads to stop and go traffic behind them. After crawling for a few minutes, you reach a break away point and look for an accident, but none is there. Then you are back in stop and go again after less than a minute.
An automobile highway is not a good analogy. The headway between automobiles is much less than 90 seconds.
Someone slowing down for a second can intiate a chain reaction that leads to stop and go traffic behind them.
On a rapid transit line, the locations were a train will slow down and/or stop are known. One works backwards and finds that there will be no slowing down from following trains, if they operate at 90 second headways. This is derived by taking into account the trains' acceleration and braking rates, the amount of time the train dwells in a station and the various reaction times for operator and signal system.
Excellent analysis. From what I can see, the fact that everyone does 70 and over on highways designed for 55 adds to this dilemma. The incessant braking, after speeding ahead to the next cluster of traffic is counter productive. Most people don't seem to grasp this. If you maintain a constant speed not only does it allow for a calmer driving experience, but it gives you more time to react to variations in the traffic flow. I wish more drivers could understand that. Most of `em just think that because some open space has appeared in front of them, it behooves them to rush ahead to gain "advantage". Then they jump on the brakes shortly thereafter. No sense at all of flow dynamics, or the positioning of birds in flock.
In some ways, I can't wait for real time "action-at-a-distance" traffic law enforcement with on-vehicle transponder equipped control logic. Screw it, make the major commuting highways operate with a railroad-centric traffic engineering POV. The current brownian motion philosophy is hitting the wall.
There is no logical reason why this must automatically be true.
"Dwell is made up of the time passenger flow occurs, a further time before the doors are closed and then a time while waiting to depart with the doors closed", TCRP Report 13, "Rail Transit Capacity", Treansportation Research Board, National Research Council. Figure 4.3 "NYCT Grand Central Dwell Time components", from the same reference states: "flow time averages 64% of total dwell time". Furthermore, "Flow Time = the time in seconds for a single passenger to move through a single-stream doorway" is shown to have a mean of 0.8893 sec with a standard deviation of 0.3640 sec in Table 4.4 of the same reference.
This means that the flow time component of dwell time is proportional to the number of passengers flowing through the doorway. The number of waiting passengers is a random variable. However, the random variable's mean is proportional to headway with all other factors (time of day, station, etc.) being equal. Therefore, if one were to cut headway in half, say from 20 tph to 40 tph) the flow time component average of dwell time would also be cut in half. Therefore, an average dwell time of 30 seconds consists of 20 seconds of flow time. One would reasonably expect that for 40 tph operation the flow time would decrease to 10 seconds. This would reduce the average dwell time to 20 seconds, which is closer to 15-seconds, as I stated.
Consider two equal, adjacent time intervals, A and B. Let x be a random variable on time intervals, with pA being the probablility for interval A and pB being the probablilty for interval B and pB|A being the Bayesian probability of interval B given interval A. How good a predictor of interval B is interval A? If it is a perfect predictor, then the value for pB|A must be either 0 or 1. In this case, the variance for the interval AB (both intervals considered as a single interval) will be the variance for interval A. OTOH, if the intervals A and B are statistically independent, then pB|A = pB. In this case, the variance for the AB interval would be the sum of the variances for A and B. Assuming the intervals are identical random variables, the variance for inteval AB would be twice the variance for interval A. The standard deviation, the square root of the variance, for the interval AB would be 1.414.. times the the standard deviation for interval A. Alternatively, the standard deviation for interval A would be 0.7071.. times the standard deviation for interval AB or 70%.
Which is closer to describing the relation between interval A and interval B? It's statistical independence. Suppose there were a component in interval B that was dependent on interval A, then the variance of interval AB would be the sum of the variance of interval A and the variance of the indpendent component of interval B. The variance of the independent component would be expected to be less than the variance, assuming no dependent component. Therefore the variance of interval AB would be somewhere between 1 and 2 times the variance of interval A. So, even a slightly random interval B will mean a reduction in standard deviation for doubling service levels.
Stephen are fabricating again.
All I'm doing is surveying the existing literature that is already out there and applying some elementary statistical analysis.
I will concede that I was wrong on that point.
However, when we progress to the next and main point, you still have not shown why, in practice, a transit system with branching lines and lots of shared track (NYC) would not have more problems keepping to a schedule than a subway (Moscow) with a very simple line structure. One other Subtalker has posted that the Metro is trying to either eliminate branching routes where possible due to the failure of the transit agency to deal with them, or accept a reduced train schedule because of them.
As I've said before, the closest comparator to Moscow is not NY (indeed, New York City's system is quite unique in the world), but rather, Washington Metrorail.
While I agree with what Mr. Bauman says, I disagree with what he does not say!
He notably does not say that you could adhere more strictly to the schedule by reducing headways or dwell times, and I think that it would be wrong to make any such inference.
Consider the effect of reducing headways on headway variability.
Suppose that headways are cut in half, from 180 seconds to 90 seconds for example.
And suppose further that the result of doing so (thanks to shorter dwell times) is to cut in half the variance of headways, so that the standard deviation (square root of variance) of headways is divided by the square root of two.
These suppositions may be open to question, but if they are true, what does that imply?
You now have two headways where there was one.
The variance of a sum of random variables equals the sum of their variances, so the combined variance of the two new short headways is equal to the variance of the original long headway, no more and no less.
So for the period under consideration, the original long headway, the combined variance of the pair of short headways is no more and no less than the variance of the original long headway. Likewise the standard deviation remains unchanged.
If you prefer to consider dwell times or flow times the same reasoning applies. The reduction in variability per time interval is exactly counterbalanced by the increase in variability due to the increased number of time intervals.
If you prefer to consider a complete hour's worth of headways, you are changing from 20 headways each having a standard deviation of sigma to 40 headways each having a standard deviation of sigma divided by root two. The sum of the variances goes from 20 times sigma-squared to 40 times half sigma-squared, so again it does not change.
Assuming that the suppositions are correct, the total variance and the total standard deviation remain unchanged.
Now I want to make a constructive suggestion!
It is not obvious to me that the variances of headways are a good measure of (lack of) adherence to the schedule.
For that purpose you should really estimate deviations of (absolute) actual times from (absolute) scheduled times, rather than deviations of (relative) headways between one train and another.
Only when the random variables are independent, which headways most certainly are not!
Var(X+Y) = Var(X) + Var(Y) -2 Cov(X,Y). The covariance of successive headways is probably negative (if one is bigger than usual, the next is likely to be smaller).
I don't have time at the moment to figure out if that point is the crux of your argument or not.
I was responding to a posting by Stephen Bauman in which he argued that it was better to assume statistical independence than to assume that one headway was a perfect predictor of the next one.
I agree with you, "AIM", that covariance between headways is probably negative, so neither one of Stephen Bauman's simplifying assumptions was perfectly correct.
My main point however is that if you shorten the headway the reduced variability per headway is balanced by the increased number of headways. Overall result: no change in total variability.
My final point is that headway variability is not necessarily a good measure of deviation from the schedule. In this context your mention of covariance is right on the money.
Let's not confuse the mean and variance for a single event and the mean and variance for several events. I would suggest that an hour's worth of 20 or 40 headways would be described by the sample mean and variance. Assuming 20 tph operation with identical statistics, the mean would be 180 seconds for the headway and the variance for the sample mean would be 1/20th the variance for a single event. Similarly, for 40 tph operation, the mean would be 90 seconds and the variance for the sample mean woud be 1/40th the variance for a single event.
OTOH, how does one compare the variance for a 180 second headway with that for a 90 second headway. This is a single event. One could observe that the 180 second event is the sum of two 90 second events - especially if one is counting the number of people on a station platform. In that case, the mean of the sum would be the sum of the means (90 + 90 = 180) and the variance of the sum would be the sum of the variances.
It is not obvious to me that the variances of headways are a good measure of (lack of) adherence to the schedule.
For that purpose you should really estimate deviations of (absolute) actual times from (absolute) scheduled times, rather than deviations of (relative) headways between one train and another.
The deviation from absolute time and relative time (headways) are one and the same.
One further point. Statistical independence means that the variance of the sum will be maximized. This means that if the real world will be better if it is loosely or strongly correlated.
Here's a counterexample. It's not 100% realistic, but the underlying phenomenon is real. It shows that in the absence of independence, decreasing headways could increase the variance in the number of passengers.
Let's assume at 125th St the only reason to get onto a 4/5 train is because you've gotten off a 6 that arrived since the last 4/5 departed. Let's also assume that 4/5s and 6s arrive at perfectly regular headways (I told you it wasn't fully realistic). Finally, let's assume that the variance in the number of people getting off a 6 (call it Var(P6)) is comparable to the number of people who get off (E(P6)), as would be true for a Poisson process.
If both 6s and 4/5s arrive at 180 second headways, then there is no variance in the number of 6 trains whose load is waiting for a 4/5. It is always exactly 1 train, so the variance in the number of prospective 4/5 passengers (call it P4) is the variance Var(P6) in the number P6 of 6 passengers on the train.
Next, suppose that 4/5 headways are cut to 90 seconds while 6 headways remain 180 seconds. Now every other 4/5 train receives a load of 6 passengers, while the other train receives none. If N is the number of 6 trains disgorging passengers to the 4/5, N = 0 or 1,
E(N) = .5, and Var (N) = 0.25.
So, E(P4) = .5 E(P6), while
Var(P4) = E(N)Var(P6) + Var(N)[E(P6)]**2
Now Var(P4) is much higher than it was before, because the second term is quadratic in E(P6).
It's an oversimplified example, but it does show that when batch arrivals occur, the variance of passengers waiting for a train can increase when headways are decreased.
"Stephen Bauman's math is a fairy tale."
I think you're being unfair.
True, subways do not exactly follow the mathematical models he describes.
However, that doesn't mean that the models provide no insight whatsoever.
It's also quite possible (I think even likely) that if NYCT were to try out some of the proposals he suggests, which aren't very expensive, they could improve capacity on the Lex.
That doesn't mean they could get 40 tph, but anything would help. The proposals are worth a try, and can be abandoned with no ongoing costs if they don't help.
Of course, it's also possible that NYCT is planning to give some of these things a try. Larry Littlefield refers to plans to tinker to inmprove capacity, but doesn't say what the plans are in any detail.
OTOH, if there is no synchronization between the local and express, then I would submit that you have underestimated the variances. You have not considered the case whereby a combination of the variable headways for the local and express would cause missed connections. If this factor were included I would think that reducing the headways on the express would result in reduced variability. My hunch is that an analytical proof is possible although a Monte Carlo simulation would result in a quicker solution.
That's exactly what was puzzling me; hence my long-delayed response, which I will try to clarify.
If you start the hour exactly on time, by how much have you departed from the schedule at the end of that hour?
The random variable that answers this question is the sum of all the individual headways throughout the hour.
That sum has its own mean and variance.
For want of a better assumption, assume throughout statistical independence of headways, as S. B. did.
On this assumption, I agree that if you halve the headway, you halve the variance of a single headway.
But there are twice as many headways, so that the sum of 40 halved variances equals the sum of 20 original variances.
Therefore at the end of the hour you have departed from the schedule by the same amount as you did before.
I hope that this does not add to the confusion!
As "AIM" has correctly pointed out, one should really take into account covariance, but this may be too difficult.
Therefore at the end of the hour you have departed from the schedule by the same amount as you did before.
One would assume that each train leaves its terminal on schedule and each train should be viewed as a separate event. Therefore one would talk about the average of all the trains. In this case there would be two factors favoring more trains. First, the variance for shorter headways is less than the variance for longer headways. Second, the variance for a sample mean of identical random variables decreases inversely with the number of samples.
Finally, I am advocating that proactive steps be used to reduce the deviation from the schedule at each station. This is fairly simple for a route with no merges/splits. The Moscow system does not need a time standard but requires an interface to the existing signal system. The Paris system requires a universal time standard but is completely independent of the signal system.
The extension to a merge/split system is fairly obvious. Some form of universal time standard is required between all branches.
That's the shortcoming of the Moscow system. It can be overcome by running a single train on each branch in the morning that is synchronized to a universal time standard. Once the relative clocks in the stations have been synchronized by the first train out in the morning, the followers will also be in sync. The operators have to remember the different headway figures for the branches and the trunk.
The Paris system needs multiple clocks at each platform to correspond to the different routes present. There would be at least two clocks on the express from 138th to Brooklyn Terminals - one for the 4 and one for the 5. The operator need remember only his route marker (which clock) and his run number (departure time). Additional clocks can be inserted to account for usual re-routes: e.g. 6's being rerouted to the express and expresses being re-routed to the local.
I was only questioning an implication that might have been drawn from one of your analyses.
My question is: by how much do you deviate from the schedule after some period of time?
The individual headways add together giving a sum. So my answer is that the sum of the headways is the random variable to consider. That is true regardless of whether you are looking at one, two or forty headways.
I am sure that New York can benefit from the experience of other systems such as Moscow and Paris, but the benefits may be limited because those systems were better designed to handle large crowds.
But Stephen does have one point which NYCT seems to be ignoring. Maybe they have good reasons for ignoring it or maybe they are working on things that haven't been mentioned here; I don't know.
This point is that the variance of the number of people who want to get on each train can be reduced if the trains come at very regular intervals.
Yes, an unruly public can destroy those intervals, but NYCT could be making much more effort to maintain constant intervals in the first place.
Here's what NYCT could do in addition to their current attempts at getting apssengers to behave:
1. Put something in place so that each T/O and C/R knows to the second where they are relative to the schedule at each station. As an interim measure, this could be done with platform conductors who have very accurate clocks at hand.
2. Train C/Rs and T/Os never to close the doors or leave a station ahead of schedule.
3. Explain to the public what is going on. E.g., hand out leaflets at 125th saying, yes we may close the express doors in your face as you transfer from the local, and here's why.
4. Back it up with police who enforce rules against holding doors.
Right now, according to the SAS Draft EIS, 29 tph head into the Lex express lines in the peak morning hour, but only 25 come out the other end. Maybe with some careful time enforcement, they could get the 29 to come out the other end without delay. Then maybe they could consider adding a few more trains as well.
"Yes, an unruly public can destroy those intervals, but NYCT could be making much more effort to maintain constant intervals in the first place. "
In Japan, train crews are allowed to push you into the train. In the US, that is considered assault and battery.
"Put something in place so that each T/O and C/R knows to the second where they are relative to the schedule at each station. As an interim measure, this could be done with platform conductors who have very accurate clocks at hand. "
OK. And you would reserve that only for very busy stations (else you'd need a lot of extra manpower)
"Explain to the public what is going on. E.g., hand out leaflets at 125th saying, yes we may close the express doors in your face as you transfer from the local, and here's why."
Agreed!
Back it up with police who enforce rules against holding doors.
"Train C/Rs and T/Os never to close the doors or leave a station ahead of schedule."
Is that really an problem. They seem to leave late more often than early.
But still, you have a point. Regular intervals = good.
This should be tried regardless. Propose it to MTA in a letter, and see what they say.
And I personally like a lot of Stephen's posts. He is great on explaining theory (I'm not being sarcastic here) - I wish I had him in Calculus 101 instead of the monotones I had to sit through.
Absolutely, and that's why I don't buy Stephen's claim that 40 tph is achievable here just because it's achievable elsewhere (along with many New Yorkers thinking that the right to hold doors is in the Bill of rights somewhere).
"Train C/Rs and T/Os never to close the doors or leave a station ahead of schedule."
Is that really an problem. They seem to leave late more often than early.
Stephen says it is, and I tend to believe him. It doesn't have to happen often to be a problem. All it takes is one train 30 seconds ahead of schedule, and suddenly the next train is getting 3 minutes worth of arrivals instead of 2.5 minutes worth, or approx 20% more load. That can easily slow down that next train, and before you know it the next train is forced to be behind schedule.
And you would reserve that only for very busy stations (else you'd need a lot of extra manpower)
I think it should be tried at every southbound 4 and 5 station in the Bronx and Manhattan down to Fulton St. (maybe every 3rd station would be fine above 180th on the 5 and above 161st on the 4). That's 22 or 40 stations. Yes, it's a lot of people, but only temporarily. If it works, they could install vandal-resistant clocks where they could be seen by the T/O and C/R at each stop.
So are you going to put this to paper and send it in?
Or they could require, like railroads did (and may still do), that the trainmen all carry a railroad-certified timepiece that is synchronized at the beginning of each run to a master clock.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As much as I like the good old days that is not practical on the subway. It requires some kind of a digital clock in the station which would tell the C/R and T/O when they pull into the station how many seconds remain till the doors should close counting down, and if the train is late, negative numbers counting up. The device would have to be intelligent enough to know when the train should arrive and when it does arrive, and have to have some way to accept changes in schedule due to a GO or temporary delay. The system should also be giving feedback to a central supervisory location, when and where trains are not running on time.
And of course, this would be the first step leading toward ATO with a central computer not only telling each train when it is ahead or behind schedule, but adjusting the speed to keep the trains on schedule, and when necessary make micro adjustments to schedules.
Tom
It wouldn't have to be intelligent at all. It would just have to be a normal digital clock with minutes and seconds giving a time that is slow by the run-time from the terminal. That way, at every station a train that left its terminal at xx:25:40 would leave when the clock showed 2540.
NYC has an additional complication: the merges and demerges. This would not be a problem. Let us consider the IRT.
The 7 Line in both directions could use absolute time, but would require an extra clock at Express stations.
Southbound on the Mainline IRT:
The 6 Line in both directions could use absolute time, but would require an extra clock at Express stations.
The 1/9 Line in both directions could use absolute time, but the clocks would need to change for skip-stop - or skip stop could be abolished. An extra clock at all stop stations would be required were skip-stop to survive.
The clock at 241st St could show the absolute time. The clocks at the other terminals would be set as follows:
Dyre: T-W+E, where T is the absolute time, W is the runtime from 241 to E180 and E is the runtime from Dyre to E180
Woodlawn: T-B+J, where T is the absolute time, B is the runtime from 241 to 125 and J is the runtime from Woodlawn to 125
148/Lenox: T-A+L, where T is the absolute time, A is the runtime from 241 to 135 and L is the runtime from 148/Lenox to 135
The Local and Express platforms in Brooklyn would have separate clocks and the Flatbush Avenue Branch would require two clocks.
Northbound a similar system could be used, using Flatbush as the point with absolute time.
This kind of clock exists at the conductors positions at Grand Central on the Lex.
Strictly speaking, a train or bus that leaves early is just as bad as one that leaves late. It really isn't fair to the rider who arrives on time if he misses his ride because the train left early. It can be maddening for the folks already on that train, especially if they're in a hurry, but the train should stick to its schedule. In fact, out here in Nassau where bus service is much less frequent than in the city, buses commonly idle at a stop for a minute or two if they're running ahead of schedule. That keeps things fair for the rider who hasn't boarded yet and may not want to wait as much as an extra half hour for the next bus, and it also reduces "bunching."
Granted, most subway riders aren't using schedules to determine their arrival on the platform-- but perhaps stricter adherence to the schedule may be a worthwhile try.
Could you be a little more specific?
Mr. gomberga mentioned the necessary device in his recollections of his brief waits on Moscow subway platforms.
Perhaps you can spot it and explain why it reduces process variability. :-)
I budgeted $200K per station to install them.
Presumably you mean the station clocks that show the time since the last train.
Ideally, if you were running 29 tph, you'd want to depart exactly (or very close to) 3600/29=124 seconds after the last train departed. That would help even out the traffic load. As I said, I have strong soubts about 36 or 40 tph, but maybe they could really maintain the 29 tph they're trying for and not have them bunch up at GCT and 14th.
That's ATS. Every train will have an AVI tag, and readers will be located at key points around the system. The car and timing of every single car, let along train, will be monitored from a central location.
(4. Back it up with police who enforce rules against holding doors.)
They've stuck platform conductors at key stations.
It's not enough. Clearly, there is a need to do as much as possible, but if there is going to be continued development on the East Side there needs to be more capacity. For example, do we know how many people are using cabs or buses because the train ride is so unpleasant? Do we know how many people living in Westchester choose not to work Downtown because the ride is so unpleasant on the Lex Express. My guess is if we got up to 36 tph we could use it all, and still build the Second Avenue north of 63rd and fill that.
Is the object to get trains operating on time or is it to spend money and get reports? One exercise that is taught in the second semester of automata theory (or at least it was 40 years ago), is to show that central control and distributed control are equivalent. The choice of which type to use is an engineering choice which is usually based on cost.
Moscow's station clock and a ATS will provide the train operator with the same information. However, Moscow's station clock costs a few orders of magnitude less money.
Moscow's station clock does not handle line splits and mergers very well. The Moscow authorities are doing their best to minimize such situations; New York will be increasing them soon, in 2004, and will be doing so again when the SAS opens for business.
Interesting question: give the press of traffic on the Lexington Avenue line, should merges and splits be eliminated at the cost of of reduced service and flexibility on other lines? Here is what this would require:
o Eliminate the 145th Street and 148th Street stations, and run the #3 through to the Bronx.
o The #3 replaces the # 5: no Lexigton Avenue Service on White Plains Rd.
o The #2 and #3 go to Flatbush
o The #4 goes from Woodlawn to Utica. The the #5 goes from New Lots and relays on track M north of Yankee Stadium.
o Nostrand Avenue and Kingston Avenue stations on Eastern Parkway would be abandoned, eliminating the three services into one track merge at Nostrand Junction, until the junction could be reconstructed to eliminate the merger.
Thus, there are no revenue merges and diverges, just trains on each end that could be put in at precise intervals after their leaders. Those at four stations would lose service, replaced by shuttle buses, and many others would have to transfer at 149th Street and Franklin Avenue, but capacity would increase.
Of course, I'm sure that if the Transit Authority was not run by "idiots," it would probably be possible to move 60 trains per hour through switches onto one track at Nostrand Junction, but since it is perhaps this -- along with the pushers and other measures -- is a real alternative to the SAS.
It would be an alternative to an important reason for the SAS, but it would not begin to address the others.
And in order to implement it, you wuld have to violate the rules of politics, the Constitution and lots of other things.
And, naturally, it's easy to call someone else an "idiot," until you're sitting in the "idiot's" chair and find out that maybe you're not a hole lot better at it...
...for a second there I thought I was reading STAND ON ZANZIBAR again.
In case you didn't get it, I was being sarcastic. The TA is not run by idiots, and one has yet to come up with a reasonable motivation for not running more trains if it were easy to do so.
Let me supply the motivation.
First off, I have not said running more trains was easy. I have said it can be done without waiting decades for a mega-million dollar project to be completed. I've also said that others are currently doing it and that the TA used to do run more trains.
If a simple inexpensive solution does indeed exist, then upper management's response will be why didn't you do it sooner. OTOH, if the only perceived solution involves many years of construction and mega-millions, then there won't be any pressure to come up with immediate fixes. The operations people can continue their careers in a predictably complacent manner. Usually, they will retire before the mega-million dollar project is completed.
There is another disincentive for quick, inexpensive solutions. One's salary is generally proportional to the amount of money one manages. Consider the Canarsie CBTC project. I think we're agreed that a Moscow style timer could double existing service levels. There are 24 stations at $200K per station for a $4.8 million project. OTOH, CBTC is coming in at close to 100 times that amount. The person who manages the CBTC project gets a lot more money and power than the person who manages a measly $4.8 million project. The group that proposes a project usually gets to implement it. Ergo, go with the big ticket item.
There is another benefit for the big ticket approach. Would-be suppliers will assure performance. The poor guy with the clocks has only mathematics on his side. Besides, if the project stretches out long enough, the project's initiators will have retired. They can then be called back as consultants to report what went wrong.
I don't think I've observed anything like 'agreement' that this is the case. I've observed one person saying so, and he is unable to back it up with facts. The only back-up is amateur math and comparsions to a transit system in Moscow.
And if "grand conspiracy theories" are the explanation, these cut both ways. The person who could figure out how to double capacity on the Canarsie line for just $5 million would be a big hero. His discovery could bring him untold wealth in consulting contracts, book deals, TV appearances, and so forth. His political influence would be something enormous. Someone who could do this has every incentive to step forward. With the current budget woes, Pataki and Bloomberg are dying to find this guy who can solve all of the system's capacity issues for $200k per station.
It hasn't happened, because it doesn't exist and can't be done.
Stephen Baumann's math is quite good - and always elegantly explained. He is far better than an amateur in a classroom or when performing theoretical work (or work in another applied field like spacecraft, perhaps). This is honorable, and we shouldn't make light of it.
But it's pretty clear he is unsuited for transit work...
The Cold War has ended. One can find good things about the Moscow Subway system without being placed on the Attorney-General's List. I can even say that they carry about twice as many people as NYCT. It's also true.
I can also say that during 40 years of an engineering career I always made sure the math and theory worked before I tried to build anything. It's part of the scientific method.
The person who could figure out how to double capacity on the Canarsie line for just $5 million would be a big hero.
Not to companies selling CBTC systems. :-)
There was a British film in the early 1950's that was made by the Bolting brothers and starred Alec Guinness. It was entitled: "The Man in a White Suit". You should see it.
With the current budget woes, Pataki ...
One contributer, who lives closer to Albany, has commented at length at what he perceives Patak's motives are vis-a-vis the MTA. I tend to agree because I know that D'Amato and two other prominent Republicans were not hired for their rapid transit car expertise by a rail car manufacturer.
The Boeing engineers who tried their hand at transit engineering made the same claims you do. And yet they failed miserably.
They did not fail because they were amateurs. They failed because they did not learn the necessary and relevant lessons and apply the lessons to the task at hand.
I am sure you have many accomplishments you can be proud of, not the least of which is your ability to convey theoretical information in a coherent manner. I have always applauded that in these posts, as you know.
But you have no experience in transit and your posts make it clear you really don't have any constructive solutions for NYC Transit. You are more interested in mindlessly criticizing others whose work you do not understand.
They did not fail because they were amateurs. They failed because they did not learn the necessary and relevant lessons and apply the lessons to the task at hand.
Were it not for statistics, you would still be using leeches.
You picked a bad example. The medical profession is still populated by many backward, Luddite members who would be happpy to use leeches today. I refuse to defend them.
Veterinarians, however, esp. those in service to cattle ranches, make splendid use of statistics and computers.
Maybe you should be a critic of the medical profession (find a medically-related Website) and do there what you do here. You would be right a greater proportion of the time.
Apparently some members of the medical profession would defend the backward, Luddite members of the transportion profession. :-)
Maybe you should be a critic of the medical profession (find a medically-related Website) and do there what you do here. You would be right a greater proportion of the time.
My contribution to correcting the medical profession's application of statistics was published 30 years ago. :-)
I'm not the one who wants the transportation profession to turn away modern technology. :0)
"My contribution to correcting the medical profession's application of statistics was published 30 years ago."
Care to provide a reference to the literature (article title, journal, date)?
You missed the point there. The Canarsie Line could easily be managed with nothing more than an accurate timepiece and rigorous adherence to schedule. But the CBTC project there is about validating an installation for use on other lines, such as the Lex, Broadway, and Sixth Avenue lines, where your proposed approach will not work (and you have nothing to prove that it would, other than recalling conditions pre-1957, which no longer apply).
Just for the record, which existing CBTC system (with ATS) manages splits and merges at 40 tph?
Arti
Gee, Larry you're starting to think outside the box. The TA's knee-jerk respose is that NYCT is different so it can't be done here. You've said, what does NYCT have to change to make something work. From what I've heard heresy is not tolerated in the MTA. :-)
A couple of points. There is a rather obvious reason why Moscow's station clock has difficulty with splits and merges. There are fixes that will overcome this difficulty. Again, the underlying principle is to reduce process variablity on a system-wide basis. Mosow's system reduces process variablity on a local basis. The fix still uses a clock but it is more complicated than Moscow's. It is closer to the Paris Metro clock.
There are a couple of mistakes in your analysis of removing the splits and merges. Your first mistake is not including the TA's fumigation policy for relays. You will not be able to turn #5 trains on track M north of Yankee Stadium. You will have to use the center tracks at 149th St and Burnside. If the TA will not change the existing switch locations, then these trains will have to run express from 125th and 149th Streets respectively.
The Rodgers Junction is a separate issue. If service levels were increased to 40 tph, then Flatbush, New Lots and Utica would not provide sufficient terminal facilities for turning all the trains. The South Ferry inner loop will have to be used to turn Lex expresses short. This means that the situation in Brooklyn will remain the same as it is now, unless somebody tries to substantially increase West Side express service. The cry that I've heard in this board is for incresing local service. This could be accomplished by adding 10 tph on the #3 and running it as a local south of 96th St.
There is no unusual conflict with splitting local service at Rodgers Junction. The problem is with moving express service onto the local track - either onto the Nostrand Ave tracks or onto the Eastern Parkway local tracks. Right now the 2's go to Flatbush and the 3's to New Lots. Route half the 3's to Flatbush to bring service levels up to that terminal's capacity. The remaining 3's will go to New Lots and service the Nostrand and Kingston Ave stations. Additional expresses would be sent to New Lots to make up for the lost #3's, instead of terminating at Utica. If it were practical to terminate the #3's at Utica instead of New Lots, I'd do it to compensate for the service level at these two stations. So far as I can tell the track layout at Utica won't permit it without interfering with expresses turning around and also going to New Lots.
The gist of the idea is for train #3 to replace train #5 in the Bronx, and for trains #3 and #5 to exchange routes in Brooklyn. That would eliminate merges and splits.
By letting passengers and not trains do the transfers you simplify operations and raise capacity, as in Moscow.
It is interesting, but I'm not sure even I take it seriously.
Eliminating two stops in Harlem, eliminating Lex service in the East Bronx, and eliminating Lex service on Flatbush is likely to be a politcal loser. Tearing up newly rehabed Eastern Parkway to eliminate the 3 way merge at Nostrand Junction wouldn't be popular either. And to work, the #4 would no longer be able to bypass Nostrand and Kingston. All the trains would have to run on the local track past Nostrand, then travel over a new switch to the express tracks before Nostrand Jct.
Still, if the upper Second Avenue doesn't get built, you might get some desperation.
There's a very simple device used on the Paris Métro to achieve this end. Trains are scheduled to an accuracy of 5 seconds - so a 10 train could be a departure from the Gare d'Austerlitz at 12:33:45. The running times between stations are of course known. At the front of each station, there is a rather odd digital clock, set at the real time minus the run time from the terminal at which the run started, reading in minutes and seconds only. Therefore, on that example train, the driver should leave each station when the clock reads 3345. This way, sufficient accuracy can be achieved to run 40tph (IIRC in practice line 4 tops out at 36tph, but it's close!).
This is one of the big differences between NYCT and systems that can. NYCT trains are scheduled to a precision of 30 seconds.
A train is not deemed late at an intermediate point, if it is less than 50% off the scheduled headway interval. This means 1 minute for 30 tph.
This metric has been difficult to achieve, rush hour on reliability performance of 60% on some lines. The TA has proposed a different reliability standard they feel that can produce better performance - wait assessment. The crux is that the late criterion would be tripled to 3 minutes.
There's a very simple device used on the Paris Métro to achieve this end.
There are some subtle differences between this and Moscow's station timer. The similarity is that one wants to present a frequent measure to the T/O of his train's on time performance. Also, one wants to present this information as a number that remains the same throughout the trip - from terminal to terminal. Providing each T/O and C/R with an accurate watch and having them memorize the departure times for each station does not work for subways.
The difference between Paris and Moscow is how the system handles deviations from the scheduled departures for following trains. The Moscow system forces following trains to adjust their schedule to compensate for the leader's deviation. The Paris system does not.
OTOH, the Paris system overcomes the main weakness of Moscow's timer - lack of syncronization between merging lines. The Paris system is more complex because it requires a method for displaying an offset to a single system-wide time standard. Incredibly, a practical system-wide time standard has eluded NYCT in the internet age.
Even Paris' system, wonderful as it is, does not approach NYC Transit's route and merge complexity. Thus a solution that works in Paris would be but a set of infant steps in New York - a basis for discussion and development, but not a mature and deployable technology.
In fact a guiding principal of the development of the Paris Metro has been to avoid route and merge complexity. Out of 16 different lines (counting the 3bis and 7bis 'shuttles' as separate lines since they do not share track with their nominal parents) there are only two branches (one on line 7, and one on line 13). And one of the objectives of the new line 14 is to eventually take over one of the line 13 branches).
On the whole most heavy-rail transit systems that post-date the Paris Metro have adopted the same segregated route approach, although not always taken to quite the same extreme.
A few earlier systems, most obviously New York but also the London sub-surface (as opposed to tube) system and (perhaps) Chicago, have adopted a different network oriented approach. I suspect this owes its origins to the main-line rail, streetcar and elevated networks that were the only examples these pioneers had to go on.
Both models have their advantages and disadvantages (9/11 would have crippled a Paris type network) but the main justification for the segregated route approach is its ability to handle many more trains per hour.
Which leads me to seriously doubt whether real high frequency operation (trains every 90 seconds) is really achievable by the network model.
Funnily enough, you will note that in the post you are commenting on I did explicitly limit my comments to 'heavy-rail transit'. The reason I did that was because I was contemplating a counter-point at the end of my post, pointing out that some of the recent driver-less light-rail transit systems (London's dockland light rail being a good example) actually seemed to have reverted to the network model and have made it work with quite tight frequencies. Perhaps having no driver removes enough randomness to make it work.
Washington Metrorail is essentially driverless. What happens in the morning when people are cramming onto in-bound Green Line trains from the Branch Av end?
Aside from the gastly Gare Montparnasse, Paris does not have high rise, high density buildings. Its density is fairly uniform and residences mix with businesses in almost all areas. As such the government policy has been to place a Metro stop within 300 m of every point. This requires a different track plan than one whose objective is to get people from the suburbs into the city.
Urban sprawl has come to Paris. The RER has truncks and branches at both ends. Fortunately the office parks stop at La Defense. Bien dommage, Corbevoie was a nice little backwater.
"Urban sprawl has come to Paris. The RER has truncks and branches at both ends. Fortunately the office parks stop at La Defense."
La Defense, incidentally, is the headquarters of ANF Industrie, probably the largest (or one of the top 3 or 4) rail carbody builders in the world. It is a subsidiary of Bombardier and designed the carbody of the R68.
I should say they built it. It may have been an internal NYCT design.
Yet the merges work well, particularly on the very busy 7 line. The reason 7 bis was chopped off 7 was not any problem with operating the merge successfully - they'd done it for years - it was a matter of needing more trains on the Villette branch.
counting the 3bis and 7bis 'shuttles' as separate lines since they do not share track with their nominal parents
Although this brings another operational headache - the horrible relay on 7 bis at Louis Blanc (triple reverse move).
And one of the objectives of the new line 14 is to eventually take over one of the line 13 branches
And one of the line 7 branches. 14 should eventually be Asnières-Gennevilliers - Villejuif.
A few earlier systems, most obviously New York but also the London sub-surface (as opposed to tube) system and (perhaps) Chicago, have adopted a different network oriented approach <<<
I hate to break it to you, but the first line on the Paris Metro opened three years earlier than the first New York Subway line. :-)
Tom
Arti
Still, the Main Line Elevated was built in 1901 and routed trains through the original subway. So on heavy rail, Boston still wins.
#3 West End Jeff
Better timing could be done in 2004 if NYCT tried.
The SAS is scheduled for 2012+.
If the Lex can be improved at low cost, it's worth trying.
A big part of this argument is whether the SAS has independent benefits, or whether it's little more than a Lex capacity enhancer.
If the SAS is just the latter, then I would agree that there are surely cheaper ways of achieving the goal than building a whole new line. (AIM is being a bit imprecise: I don't think that any capital project should be done, merely because it's 'worth trying'. You need to be a little more confident than that.)
But if the SAS has independent benefits, then all of this debate about Lex enhancements is an apples-to-oranges comparison. This does not mean that the SAS is necessarily the Right Thing To Do, only that comparing it to potential Lex upgrades is not entirely meaningful.
It's worth trying regardless of the SAS. And AIM's comment is true of any subway line.
"But if the SAS has independent benefits, then all of this debate about Lex enhancements is an apples-to-oranges comparison. This does not mean that the SAS is necessarily the Right Thing To Do, only that comparing it to potential Lex upgrades is not entirely meaningful. "
Exactly right.
Why don't you look at the order of the "benefits" that are in the SDEIS?
#3 West End Jeff
90-second headways translates to 40 tph.
Surely to run 40tph you need signalling designed for less than 90-second headways, to give a margin for recovery from random delay.
The Moscow subway currently operates at 43 tph. The Moscow Metro uses a conventional block system, similar to New York's. Line 14 of the Paris Metro operates at 90-second headways. This is a new system with a CBTC signal system.
Not sure which Moscow Metro line(s) runs 43tph, but most Moscow Metro and Paris lines (including 14) are dedicated end-to-end routes with no branches, no junctions and tracks rigorously segregated from all other routes. A different ball-game altogether from NY subway with its local/express operations, multiple routings, 3&4 track sections, etc., etc.
The signal system is designed to ensure there is always a safe distance between trains. The quoted statement was chosen to refute some arguments that 40 tph operation was no longer safe. The signal system will guarantee safe operation at 40 tph.
Recovery from random perterbations is not the function of the signal system; it is the function of the train scheduler system. NYCT essentially no train scheduler system. The only system approximating one are the holding lights at a few stations.
One can utilize statistics to quantify how much randomness can be tolerated for a given service service level and service reliability criterion. The key to improving service reliability is in reducing variability. That's what train schedulers do. The strategy of decreasing service levels during rush hours is counter-productive because variance of the random perterbations increases with the inceased interval between trains.
Not sure which Moscow Metro line(s) runs 43tph, but most Moscow Metro and Paris lines (including 14) are dedicated end-to-end routes with no branches, no junctions and tracks rigorously segregated from all other routes. A different ball-game altogether from NY subway with its local/express operations, multiple routings, 3&4 track sections, etc., etc.
It's the same ballgame. All of Moscow's lines and most of Paris' lines do not use loop terminals. There is an interlocking at the terminal. They must adhere to a schedule, to make sure there no switching conflicts arise at the terminal. The same principle applies when the switch is placed at a position other than a terminal. All trains using a particular interlocking must be on-time relative to one another. It's a more difficult task but it's the same ball-game - just the difference from AAA minor leagues to the majors.
Indeed. But if Moscow and Paris have concluded that they are not ready for the major leagues, why should New York be held to that standard?
You've put the cart before the horse.
Moscow and Paris did not build separate lines because they could not maintain split/merge schedules at 40 tph. Moscow, Paris and New York built their subways to conform to the geography of their cities. Both Paris and Moscow started at the center and grew out as circles of increasing radii.
New York is sandwiched between two bodies of water that are difficult to span. It grew lengthwise. The split/merge topolgy is a natural consequence of the remnants of the last ice age.
I cannot speak to the Moscow case, but that certainly isn't true for Paris. The Paris Metro took a deliberate decision to build separate lines in order to avoid the schedule reliability problems introduced by branches and (in-service) inter-line connections.
Paris could just as easily have fitted the network model to its topography. London, which has a very similar topography to Paris, built all its early sub-surface lines to the network model.
The only significance of New York's (or more specifically Manhattan's) topography I can see on this decision is that it probably dictated that some avenues were going to need more than one pair of tracks under them. But they could still just as easily have been been configured at build time as separate lines rather than express/local pairs.
If you had something else in mind, please tell.
Your description is quite good.
I've never come across that in any of the books or documents I've read about the Metro both in the States and in Paris.
I can see on this decision is that it probably dictated that some avenues were going to need more than one pair of tracks under them. But they could still just as easily have been been configured at build time as separate lines rather than express/local pairs.
One of the design criteria for the first subway was a 15 minute ride from City Hall to Harlem. The express/local concept provided this while keeping stations within walking distance for people who resided closer to downtown.
While the expresses and locals are not in separate tunnels, they might as well be. Normal routings pretty well keep expresses and locals separate. It would be better to think of it as two separate lines: a local for Manhattan residents and an express for the outer boroughs.
The uniqueness of Manhattan. What a city; adjacent high density street corridors, all in a row. Between two bodies of water; a completely developed narrow island. So of course, the geography of the place, this narrowness has directed the internal pathways design. The city is tailor-made for the four track underground transit railways running underneath the various avenues. For all the bluster regarding other cities transit system usage, none of `em can match the linear design of our city. Could you even imagine only local trains running all the way up and down Manhattan? The city would grind to an agonizing, if not halt, then a slow crawl. Or to put it another way, I don't think any other city has so many people wanting to go from "here" to "there" on a fairly straight tangent. As in from 96th Street to 18th Street. So the express concept fits right in with these desires.
I like your description of "two seperate lines". I think it makes sense to think of them that way. Again, the topography of the island that dictated how the humans would inhabit it allows for such a dense railroading device as two parallel railroad lines following the same R.O.W. yet offering two different operating philosophies. What a marvel of pure engineering design! Only in New York.
(I can imagine the different marketing directions taken in some future privatization of the subway system, with different companies operating the locals and the expresses. The local company might push the convenience factor of being closer to your home or business; the express company could point out it's speed advantages. Just a thought....)
That is all well and good - however, you have avoided the question posed to you (because you have no answer).
If the signalling is designed to safely operate trains at 90 second headways, then I agree that it is perfectly safe to operate 40tph. But that is a long way from saying that it is practical, or achievable, to schedule trains at 40tph with signalling designed for 90 second headways, which I think you are also saying.
Recovery from random perterbations is not the function of the signal system; it is the function of the train scheduler system.
Again I agree. But surely if your safety critical signalling system limits you to 90 second headways, and your schedule requires you to run 40tph, then there isn't a lot your train scheduler system can do to recover from random events.
Perhaps an example might help to explain what I mean, based on a 90 second headway and 30 second dwell time. If a train for some reason (doors held open, T/O distracted, minor malfunction) takes 40 seconds in a station, that train is going to end up 10 seconds late.
That is true in any case. But if your signalling insists on a 90 second headway, it will of necessity delay the following train by at least 10 seconds in order to enforce that headway. And so on right back down the line. There is nothing the train scheduling system can do to stop that happening.
I guess on a simple enough line, with the sort of frequencies we are talking about (where nobody looks at a timetable), that is no huge deal. Essentially the system will stabilise at an achievable number of trains per hour, but in practice that will be somewhat less than 40tph.
With complex routing though (and I take your point that most terminal arrangements other than loops introduce an element of that), that delay can cause positive feedback between different routings, with delays getting worse. I havn't the math to prove it, but I suspect this will also stabilise at some level. The more complex the routings, the bigger the difference between the theoretical maximum tph set by the signalling, and the practically achievable tph.
The signal system does not work in the way you have explained it.
The signal system senses the position of trains. The signal system is designed knowing how far a train will stop, when the emergency brakes are applied. The track is divided into blocks. A train is prevented from entering a block, if there is a train ahead at less than the safe stopping distance. Permission to enter a block is not governed by the time since the last train entered the block.
The minimum headway is derived from these safety concerns not the reverse. Minimum distance between trains occurs, when a lead train is in the station. Assume the lead train enters a station at normal speed. It will take 30 seconds for it to come to a full stop and open its doors. The dwell time is defined as the interval from when the doors open until when the train starts moving again. Let's say it's also 30 seconds. Finally, the train will accelerate out of the station. Assuming a clear track ahead, it will take another 30 seconds before signal aspects turn green up to the station's entrance. (This is based on the train's acceleration/speed and the signal system that knows the following train's stopping distance). At this instant, the following train can enter the station at normal speed to repeat the operation. So, the minumum headway is 30 seconds braking time + 30 seconds dwell time + 30 seconds acceleration time = 90 seconds.
The dwell time consists of 3 components. A period where people are moving through the open doors, followed by a period where the doors are open and there is no movement and followed by a period where the doors are closed but the train has not started to move. The first period - the one with people moving through the doors does not occupy the entire 30 seconds of dwell time. It's the other two dwell time components that the train scheduler varies to reduce overall variability.
BTW, operator variability in braking, acceleration and travel time between stations is greater than the variability for the first dwell time component.
Essentially the system will stabilise at an achievable number of trains per hour, but in practice that will be somewhat less than 40tph.
There is no equalibrium for maintaining train schedules. If proactive measures are not taken, trains that are marginally behind schedule will get further behind schedule and those that are ahead of schedule will get further ahead of schedule.
The more complex the routings, the bigger the difference between the theoretical maximum tph set by the signalling, and the practically achievable tph.
To reiterate, the signal system does not set the theoretical maximum tph. The signal system sets a minimum distance between trains as they are travelling. It's the function of the train scheduler system to set the time between trains.
Assume the lead train enters a station at normal speed. It will take 30 seconds for it to come to a full stop and open its doors. The dwell time is defined as the interval from when the doors open until when the train starts moving again. Let's say the schedule says it should take 30 seconds, but a drunk distracts the T/O and it actually takes 40 seconds. Finally, the train will accelerate out of the station. Assuming a clear track ahead, it will take another 30 seconds before signal aspects turn green up to the station's entrance, 100 seconds after the train entered the station.
At the time the lead train entered the station, the following train was running to schedule 90 seconds behind it. Because the signal controlling access to the station does not clear to green until 100 seconds later, the following train will not be able to run into the station until that time, and it will be at least 10 seconds late.
{Pedant mode on so I don't get another lecture on signalling details} How exactly this happens will depend on the nature of the signalling system, caution aspects, sighting distances, etc. {Pedant mode off}.
The scheduling system can do nothing to prevent this effect, nor to stop it propagating back down the line to yet more following trains, because there is no margin of error between the scheduled headway and the minimum headway supported by the signalling system.
So, the minumum practical headway is actually 30 seconds braking time + 30 seconds dwell time + 30 seconds acceleration time + a contingency for random delays = n where n > 90 seconds.
I'm quite happy to accept your analysis that no equilibrium is achieved; I think that strengthens rather than weakens my argument that you cannot schedule right up to the theoretical signalling capacity of a line and still expect to reliably keep to the schedule.
To give a similar example in a non-subway context: you do not (or should not) drive your car at a speed that assumes you'll be able to stop perfectly in the reaction time that the laws of physics would tell you is theoretically achievable. Unless you have a death wish, you allow some room for error. The more cars that are on the road, the greater the margin required. That's why Stephen's math is unreliable. Train behavior is a stochastic (random) process. Arrivals and departures don't happen with the regimented regularity that he's assuming.
So, the minumum practical headway is actually 30 seconds braking time + 30 seconds dwell time + 30 seconds acceleration time + a contingency for random delays = n where n > 90 seconds.
Here is one point of confusion.
I did say that dwell time is composed of three distinct components. The first component with people freely moving through the doorway cannot be modified. However, the second and third components - with no people moving through the doorway can be adjusted by the train scheduler. The contingency is built into the 30 second dwell time.
Published data would indicate that for a regulated system - such as Vancouver's SkyTrain - the flow time component as a percentage of total dwell time is less than that for an unregulated system. The data shows 64% flow time for NYCT at Grand Central and 40% flow time for Vancouver at Burrard.
So the leader will be 10 seconds late in leaving because of the drunk. The leader will make up that time at the next station and get back on schedule. The follower will arrive 10 seconds late but will leave on time.
The follower will be able to leave on time because the leader to follower distance will permit the follower to leave the station at normal speed.
One component of this is the time required by the conductor to open the doors. On an LIRR MU, a conductor sometimes is late getting back to the cab after punching tickets and answering questions from passengers (esp. on a crowded train) and the train can have arrived at a stop, wuth the doors not opening for several seconds.
A similar situation on the subway involves a train leaving a station where the platform is to the T/O's right and arriving where it is on the T/O's left (or vice versa). There have been times when this has resulted in a delay in the doors opening on arrival. Evidently the conductor took too long to switch cabs and operate the open door mechanism. Of course, even the doors are operable from either side, the conductor must be on the platform side to check for people as the doors are closing and then check for anyone being dragged.
The conductors should be better disciplined about that - assuming that this is prt of what causes delays.
That is defined as part of the braking time - not dwell time.
There are two reasons for this. First it conforms to the literature, so that any collected data can be checked against historical patterns. Second, it's easier to accurately determine the instant that something happens than to determine the instant it does not happen. Sometimes it's pretty hard to figure out when a train stops moving. There's no uncertainty when the doors open.
OK, that's fine. Your reasoning was is excellent on that point.
I believe it has the potential of showing higher variability than the braking process itself. For those parts of a route where the conductor need not leave his/her cab, that portion of the braking process becomes more stable - and presumably shorter.
I'm sure that people analyze the causes of variability in the braking rate, they will discover AWOL C/R's. The question is how much variability is introduced by such trangressions. If it's within the cushion and far enough from a merge/split or the terminal, then the train scheduler/supervisor will completely compensate for the transgression.
OK.
"If it's within the cushion and far enough from a merge/split or the terminal, then the train scheduler/supervisor will completely compensate for the transgression."
In theory, it should, yes.
Ce n'est pas vrai!
There are loops at:
La Défense (1)
Porte Maillot (1)
Nation (2)
Porte de Champerret (3)
Porte des Lilas (3 bis)
Porte de Clignancourt (4)
Porte d'Orléans (4)
Place d'Italie (5)
Etoile (6)
Nation (6)
Porte de la Villette (7)
Pré-Saint-Gervais (7 bis)
Porte de Saint Cloud (9)
Porte d'Auteuil (10)
Porte de Clichy (13)
Invalides (13, ex-14)
It is not possible, with current signaling and equipment and SAFETY STANDARDS and LIABILITY, to do so. The only subwaty systems which can do so exist in countries where citizens do not have the same legal rights vs. the transit authorities that they do here.
How about with a cop at every door at every station threatening arrest if you hold a door open.
And pushers at GCT to push everyone into the cars quicker?
And replacing the gap filler panels at 14th with ones that take less than 20 seconds to advance and retract?
And thorough indoctrination of every T/O and C/R of exactly when (to the second) they should be at each station, so that they don't leave more than 10 seconds early?
Not realistic, of course, but doesn't require any compromise to safety.
:0)
It's not just the courts - modern Russia is the society, where courts rulled unconstitutional towing your car away. Come a big disaster, there would be suits and responsible heads would roll - but Moscow metro has had precious few major incidents in its almost 70 years.
It's the system design: every line in Moscow subway runs alone, on its own track, with no branches, no change of tracks (at least as far as regular revenue service is concerned). The two historical instances of lines branching were abandoned for that very reason - too hard to manage this with 40 tph. In fact, even running extra trains from the intermediate stations (e.g. those near the yards), so that people boarding in the middle of the run would have some chance of getting onto the train in the rush our, has turned out to be too difficult to be practical on the most crowded lines. Except for trains going to/from a yard, they, mostly, just run terminus to terminus (or in a circle). They are indeed building a branch line now - but it is going to branch off the existing line with the lowest ridership in the system, and plans so far are to have only 32 tph (those running on the branch being much shorter than normal) on the joint segment - still there are doubts if this will be practical. Add to this, that, with very few exceptions, the system is almost entirely underground and, thus, isolated from the elements, and that station platforms are, mostly, very broad, avoiding some of the crowding at boarding. Moscow metro also shuts down for 4 hours each night for regular maintenance - all suggestions to run it 24/7 have been rejected as unsafe. Perhaps, that last also helps ensuring fairlly accident-free 40 tph during the rush hour.
But, mainly, it is just the first thing: the tradeoff is flexibility (switching tracks, routs sharing tracks, etc.) vs. frequency. (40 tph on a track).
It runs frequently enough to handle huge crowds, by virtue of the operational simplicity built into the design of the system.
Moscow's stations are far apart. Do they have large concentrations of passengers at a few exceptionally busy stations? How do their dwell times compare? Do they keep strictly to the regular schedules? Please tell us more!
There are no posted schedules - on some lines trains run every 90 sec during the rush hour (you see one train almost as soon as the other departs - and the platforms get crowded while you wait). Haven't been there in 10 years, but in my time rush hour delays of more than a minute or two were very rare (though, it seems, some of the more crowded lines have had them more frequently recently). I timed a ride from home to school at 16 minutes (13 if I ran at the transfer) - I can't remember a single deviation in a few years I took that route; perhaps, there were some, but this would be extremely rare. The station clocks, showing the time since the last train, couldn't even show 10 minutes or more - it was a problem, sometimes, only after 10 PM. Even 5 minutes between trains seemed like a wait. No service, though, 1 AM - 5 AM.
Hard to say about dwell times - I am sure that if you ask some people at metropla.net could be much more informative than myself.
Another system with similar operational simplicity, but nearer, is Mexico City - 11 branches, no splits, no turns, no large-scale traffic problems. I would say the delays are more frequent, though, despite smaller crowds. Still, except, possibly, Sundays, it is much shorter and more predictable headway than NYC - and it does carry more passengers than NY subway.
http://www.metro.ru:8080/facts/1999-2.html
Arti
Lex local fits that criteria.
Arti
In general ys, except for the rush hour Pelham Express, which I'm guessing is too minor to make a dfference.
As does the 7th Av / Broadway Local.
Becuase of the simplicity, the busiest line in the system (Line 3)carries alomst 900,000 riders per day, and the line itself is only 22 km long with 18 stations!. The enitre system is only 50 km long, but carries 2.5 million people per day. Because of the amazing effcency of the Metro, I think single-route lines are better then the flexibility of branches.
Even if train frequencies on the Lex could be increased, the SAS still would be useful because it would greatly improve subway access on the east side. Consider just how far west the Lex actually runs.
Extending the subway to the airport in LaGuaira, Venezuela would be very expensive.
You're not too familiar with how real estate works, are you?
Property values near new subway stations rise sharply. This increase will affect the Stubway route first, since that is intended as the first operating segment. This effect will occur a lot sooner than 2020, because 2020 is presented as a date when the full -length line is operating (and eve that's being very conservative).
In the second place, as a property owner, you would NOT want to "sell out to some sucker" - you'd be the sucker! Instead, what you'd want to do is collect appropriate insurance compensation from MTA if construction caused damage to your property; you'd then consult with an architect on options of how to make your building front or side friendlier to suybway access, if a station is to be located nearby.
Since construction will be done in phases, your building would not be in a construction zone the whole time. Plus, with the new cut and cover techniques they're using (pile driving plus new street decks) the whole experience will be a lot easier than in the past. Not a cakewalk, certainly.
And if you're in a zone where the tunnel's already built or MTA uses a TBM, your building wouldn't be affected.
"Honest Question what happens if they start building 2nd ave and it starts slowly becoming less populated?"
It wouldn't become less populated. No reason for it to become less populated. Roosevelt Island didn't become less populated when the 63rd Street line was built. Jersey City didn't become less populated when the HBLR was being put up.
The rest of your post makes no sense.
Agreed. And I hope they don't forget. MTA should be held to a higher standard for construction today.
The PA's construction of AirTrain did not involve a lot of tunnelling, but people were afraid of the disruptions to traffic, and the pile driving. The construction process itself was a success, and even homeowners gave a lot of praise to it.
I hope MTA was paying attention. I brought up this comparison in past hearings, as I am sure others did.
You're right, Peter. MTA has a chance to prove itself on this one.
That's actually quite a good proportion. I'd've expected nearer 25% for it just adding a local - a much needed local, but it of course will only serve the needs of local passengers. Pity there won't be a 2nd Avenue Express on the section 63-116(-125), or with that scale of benefit, a major dent would be made in congestion on the Lex.
As a somewhat irrelevant will never happen aside, here's what I would envisage as the best 2nd Av subway:
Local: 125/Bway, 125/Manhattan, 125/Lenox, 125/Lex, 116(/2), 106, 96, 86, 76, 66(/2), 63/Lex then Broadway Express.
Bronx 3rd Av Branch: Fordham Plaza, 183(/3), Tremont Av, Claremont Pkwy, 168, 163, 156, 149/3, 138/3, then 2nd Av Express.
Bronx Dyre Branch: Dyre Av, then all stops to E180, E174, Whitlock (on the 6), then non stop on the NH ROW diving underground and joining the 2nd Av Express.
2nd Av Express: 125/2, 116, 66, 57, 50, 42, 34, 23, 14, St Mark's Pl, Houston/2, then branching (a) next stop Essex St on the JMZ; (b) Grand/Chrystie, Chambers on the JMZ etc.
I'd add a Jamaica Av express track (including a BJ-Cypress Hills flyover) as an integral part of this 2nd Av concept.
Service:
(J) Fordham Plaza - 2nd Av Express - Jamaica Lcl
<J> Fordham Plaza - 2nd Av Express - Jamaica Peak Direction Exp
(M) Metropolitan - Broad
(Q) 125/Bway - 2nd Av Lcl - Bway Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI
(Z) Dyre - 2nd Av Express - 4th Av Lcl - 9th Av (- Bay Pkwy)
Am I the only one who fails to see the need for 2nd Ave express? IMHO it would needlessly make the wait longer for local stop passangers and if you look at the rest of the system, there's no express service on 1, 4, end of 2, 5, 6, 3, n etc.
Arti
I think a four track SAS would be cool and luxurious, but I also think a two-track SAS would be very adequate to provide service.
Exactly, but not at all necessary. Out of express tracks we have, only Brigton and Flushing line use them. 2nd Ave express tracks would be gross waste and how you characterized them is IMO correct.
Arti
OTOH, at least one Subtalker would like to reserve a track or two for Redbird fan trips...
Precisely, but to my knowledge, we have plenty of unused tracks to do so, even in Manhattan.
Arti
You forgot about the following 26 express tracks:
1&2) Broadway BMT (Q/W Express, N/R Local)
3) Broadway (Brooklyn) BMT (J/Z Express, M Local)
4&5) Fourth Avenue BMT (N/W Express, M/R Local)
6&7) Central Park West IND (A/D Express, B/C Local)
8) Concourse IND (D Express, B Local)
9&10) Eighth Avenue IND (A Express, C/E Local)
11&12) Fulton Street IND (A Express, C Local)
13&14) Queens IND (E/F Express, R/V Local)
15&16) Sixth Avenue IND (B/D Express, F/V Local)
17&18) Washington Heights IND (A Express, C Local)
19) Bronx IRT (5 Express, 2 Local)
20&21) Brooklyn IRT (4/5 Express, 2/3 Local)
22&23) Lexington Avenue IRT (4/5 Express, 6 Local)
24) Pelham IRT (6-diamond Express, 6-circle Local)
25&26) Seventh Avenue IRT (2/3 Express, 1 Local)
Only true in certain instances. It is certainly not true for these, as they all have sections of 2 or 3 track running:
Broadway (Brooklyn) BMT (J/Z Express, M Local)
Concourse IND (D Express, B Local)
Fulton Street IND (A Express, C Local)
Washington Heights IND (A Express, C Local)
Bronx IRT (5 Express, 2 Local)
Pelham IRT (6-diamond Express, 6-circle Local)
Now, at least half of these express services are worthwhile, but they are not a matter of capacity.
Arti
Arti
No. I agree with you. Many of the older lines are built with stations very close together. On those lines, express makes a very significant difference. On the SAS, stations will be farther apart. Modern signaling will reduce headways, and allow for more reliable service. For these reasons, I think a SAS express would be overkill.
Side note - 8986-87 are alive and well at Coney Island Yard being prepared for conversion to work service....
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
It's morning and I'm still awake. I better get some ZZZs!
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Stef
I hope MTH makes some Slant R40s since my father and I are tired of asking N_slant_40 to modify the 42s to slants because he starting to get pretty annoyed from us and I also hope the MTH makes some R38s .
With graffiti, I hear!!
1: How many cars can your average subway/elevated station hold?
2: In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Market-Frankford had a shifting size of consists. What were the trainlengths, and what was the basis for them?
3: What brought about the first incurrence of Broad-Ridge Spur Express service between Fern Rock and 8th Street?
4: Name five closed/abandoned Regional Rail stations and their locations.
5: For what purpose does SEPTA use Broad Street Line Kawasaki car #666?
6: Why are SEPTA's designated directions for Regional Rail service slightly wrong? (Note: This may be confusing. Look at a map for a MAJOR clue)
7: How many stops each were originally skipped by Market-Frankford Line A and B trains, and which were omitted?
BONUS: What imbalance lies within the current A/B skip stop service?
8: Name SEPTA's most recently constructed Regional Rail maintenance facility.
9: What are the differences between the original Norristown Terminal and the Norristown Transportation Center?
10: What "phases" of single track routing originally existed on the Route 101 line?
11: The crossover tracks near Marcus Hook Station serve what other purpose than terminating R2 Marcus Hook trains?
12: Which other line shared Frankford Junction Station?
13: Assuming SEPTA did restore trolley service to Routes 23 and 56, which depot would be the better choice for maintenance and why?
14: Which subway/elevated station has the longest platforms?
15: Is a full circle loop (such as at 69th Street Terminal or Fern Rock Transportation Center) possible at Bridge-Pratt Frankford Terminal?
16: What recent change was implemented on SEPTA's Rail System Pocket Map?
17: What problem of accurate information exists with the automated stop announcements on the Market-Frankford Line's M4 cars?
18: The following are destinations seen on Regional Rail line train signs. Name the destination on the opposite side: Center City Philadelphia; Glenside; North Broad Street; R2 Wilmington; R3 Secane; R5 Thorndale.
19: Which subway stop doesn't have a lot of steel support columns on the platform?
20: Name every possible Subway-Surface Destination on a Kawasaki single end LRV rollsign. (yes, those for routes 6, 50, 53, 56, and 23 are also there, but ignore them)
BONUS: Name every possible rollsign destination for Routes 100, 101, and 102. (Note: Don't forget non-revenue signage)
Answers WILL be posted Thursday. THIS Thursday. Best of luck, all
~ R6 (Norristown)
I only know the bonus...there is one more B stop than A stops. This is because the western Market Street end has two B stops, Millbourne and 46th, but only one A stop at 63rd Street.
The automated station announcement system on the Market-Frankford M4 cars often is out of phase, the announcements being a few stations off in either ahead or behind.
40th Street station in the Market-Frankford line doesn't have steel support columns on the passenger platform.
Mark
BSS = 8, MFL = 7
3: What brought about the first incurrence of Broad-Ridge Spur Express service between Fern Rock and 8th Street?
Delays in crossing the trains over at Olney.
4: Name five closed/abandoned Regional Rail stations and their locations.
52nd St on the R5 Paoli, Tibor on the Reading Main Line, Spring Garden on the Reading Main Line, Reading Terminal, Barmouth and Ivy Ridge both on the R6 Cynwyd Line.
6: Why are SEPTA's designated directions for Regional Rail service slightly wrong? (Note: This may be confusing. Look at a map for a MAJOR clue)
What do you mean for a designated direction?
8: Name SEPTA's most recently constructed Regional Rail maintenance facility.
I'd say Overbrook, but it might be Frazier.
9: What are the differences between the original Norristown Terminal and the Norristown Transportation Center?
NT was a nicer 30ies building a block or two north of NTC and was at street level.
11: The crossover tracks near Marcus Hook Station serve what other purpose than terminating R2 Marcus Hook trains?
HOOK interlocking is also the first full crossover south of PHILL and north of LANDLITH to be used by Amtrak, Conrail or SEPTA trains needing to wrong rail. HOOK also allows local freights to access interlocked spur tracks to service the massive refinery complexes in the area.
12: Which other line shared Frankford Junction Station
The Delaware River Bridge and Railroad company aka the PRR/PRSL line to the shore.
14: Which subway/elevated station has the longest platforms?
I'd say Pattison.
15: Is a full circle loop (such as at 69th Street Terminal or Fern Rock Transportation Center) possible at Bridge-Pratt Frankford Terminal?
From the looks of this terraserver image, I would say yes, but it would involve going through the shoppe ( http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=2467&y=22153&z=18&w=2 )
19: Which subway stop doesn't have a lot of steel support columns on the platform?
Hmmm, 2nd St?
The segment of PRR from Shore to West Haddonfield was never conveyed to PRSL; it was PRR and PC before it became CR.
1: How many cars can your average subway/elevated station hold?
8 For the BSL, and 7 for the MFL
2: In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Market-Frankford had a shifting size of consists. What were the trainlengths, and what was the basis for them?
Market-Frankford used 7-car, 6-car, and 4-car consists depending on the day. 7 was on weekdays, 6 on Saturdays, 4 on Sundays.
3: What brought about the first incurrence of Broad-Ridge Spur Express service between Fern Rock and 8th Street?
RailWorks, to expedite passengers from north of Fern Rock to the Market East area. However, work in the Ridge tunnel prevented the operation for a short period of time in 1993.
4: Name five closed/abandoned Regional Rail stations and their locations.
Very vast question, and by location, I meant address, not line.
Accepted answers:
52nd Street Junction (R5 Malvern/Thorndale): 52nd Street & Lancaster Ave.
Fellwick (R5 Lansdale/Doylestown): Camp Hill Road & Walnut Ave.
Fulmor (R2 Warminster): Mill Road & Warminster Ave.
Tabor (R2 Warminster): Tabor Road & Wagner Ave.
Fern Rock (R2 Warminster): 10th Street & Godfrey Ave.
Logan (R2 Warminster): Broad Street & Windrim Ave.
Tioga (R8 Fox Chase): 20th & Tioga Streets
Nicetwon (R8 Fox Chase): 21st Street, between Erie and Hunting Park Avs.
Fishers (R7 Chestnut Hill East): 20th & Logan Streets
Baldwin (R2 Marchus Hook/Wilmington/Newark): Chester Pike, behind Baldwin Tower.
Westmoreland (R8 Chestnut Hill West): 22nd & Westmoreland Streets
Frankford Junction (R7 Trenton/PRSL Atlantic City Line): Frankford & Glenwood Avs.
Frankford (R7 Trenton): Church & Tacony Streets
Andalusia (R7 Trenton): Tennis Ave. & Bristol Pike
Manayunk West (R6 Cynwyd/Ivy Ridge): DuPont & Baker Streets
Barmouth (R6 Cynwyd/Ivy Ridge): Levering Mill Road & Blemont Ave.
Shawmont (R6 Norristown): Shawmont Ave & Nixon Street
Mogees (R6 Norristown): Industrial Road, off Conshohocken Road
I didn't accept stations on the R8 Newtown or R3 West Chester, as the trains no longer go that far, unlike the stations accepted, which are along the route itself. R6 Barmouth and Manayunk West are exceptions, as R6 Norristown trains still serve Ivy Ridge... so technically, the R6 still goes that far.
5: For what purpose does SEPTA use Broad Street Line Kawasaki car #666?
For the workers on the garbage train/money train to sit in... without smelling the trash, or being crowded by the money bags.
6: Why are SEPTA's designated directions for Regional Rail service slightly wrong? (Note: This may be confusing. Look at a map for a MAJOR clue)
Only the R1 Airport, R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark, and R3 Media/Elwyn actually go SOUTH. SEPTA divides Regional Rail into Southbound and Northbound, but the R7 and R8 go North either way they travel out of Center City, and the R5 and R6 go WEST from 30th Street. Eastbound and Westbound (referring to the direction traveled THROUGH Center City) would have been more appropriate.
7: How many stops each were originally skipped by Market-Frankford Line A and B trains, and which were omitted?
8 for A, 7 for B, more recently downed to 6 each.
BONUS: What imbalance lies within the current A/B skip stop service?
A now skips one more stop than B, as Spring Garden was added to its current stops, while the B had both 34th Street AND 2nd Street added. Ouch.
8: Name SEPTA's most recently constructed Regional Rail maintenance facility.
Overbrook Heavy Maintenance Facility, 5320 Jefferson Street.
9: What are the differences between the original Norristown Terminal and the Norristown Transportation Center?
Old NT was at Swede & Main Streets, and even when moved back a block, hd no direct interface with R6 DeKalb Street Station. Also, the Route 100 platform was single track, a second track was added to NTC to avoid a need for terminating trains in Bridgeport.
10: What "phases" of single track routing originally existed on the Route 101 line?
No one got this? Phase 1: Aronimink to Scenic Road. Phase 2: Woodland Ave to Pine Ridge. Phase 3: Bowling Green to Orange Street. Phase 1 was eliminated quite some time ago. (unsure of exact date)
11: The crossover tracks near Marcus Hook Station serve what other purpose than terminating R2 Marcus Hook trains?
Frieght access to refineries and Stoney Creek Yard.
12: Which other line shared Frankford Junction Station?
Philadelphia Reading Sarhore Lines trains (what would likely now fall under NJT's Atlantic City Line).
13: Assuming SEPTA did restore trolley service to Routes 23 and 56, which depot would be the better choice for maintenance and why?
Luzerne, as it is closer to both lines, and there is direct access from both lines (via Erie Avenue and 10th Street for 56, and via Germantown Avenue and Old York Road for 23)
14: Which subway/elevated station has the longest platforms?
Pattison on the Broad Street Line.
15: Is a full circle loop (such as at 69th Street Terminal or Fern Rock Transportation Center) possible at Bridge-Pratt Frankford Terminal?
Yes, via the shops. Rarely done, though.
16: What recent change was implemented on SEPTA's Rail System Pocket Map?
North Phialdelphia Regional Rail Station has FINALLY been recognized on the map as two separate stations (R8 doesn't share platform or tracks with R7/Amtrak): N. Phila R7 and N. Phila R8
17: What problem of accurate information exists with the automated stop announcements on the Market-Frankford Line's M4 cars?
two accepted answers:
1) The navigation system occasionally fails entering a terminal, and isn't reset. As a result, the train says Spring Garden is next... you're between 15th Street and 30th Street.
2): SEPTA never programmed the surface routes you can transfer to at 34th Street, 30th Street, 15th Street (understandable, since not much time for it on westbound trains), 13th Street, 11th Street, 8th Street, 5th Street, or 2nd Street into the system.
18: The following are destinations seen on Regional Rail line train signs. Name the destination on the opposite side: Center City Philadelphia; Glenside; North Broad Street; R2 Wilmington; R3 Secane; R5 Thorndale.
R1 Airport, R5 Bryn Mawr, 30th Street Station, R2 Baldwin (or R2 Newark), R3 Media, R5 Malvern
19: Which subway stop doesn't have a lot of steel support columns on the platform?
TRICK QUESTION
40th Street on the Market-Frankford Line has none
NONE of the sidewall platform stations on the Broad treet Line do
Chinatown and 8th Street on the Broad-Ridge Spur don't
City Hall has very few (the foundations of City Hall itself also hold up the station, and cause for quite the limited view)
NONE of the Subway-Surface stops do (except 15th Street and 13th Street, which haven't got that many either)
20: Name every possible Subway-Surface Destination on a Kawasaki single end LRV rollsign.(yes, those for routes 6, 50, 53, 56, and 23 are also there, but ignore them)
Route 10:
City Hall via Subway
63rd & Malvern
60th & Lansdowne
63rd & Lansdowne
40th & Lancaster
(DIVERSION) 40th & Market Subway Station
Route 11:
City Hall via Subway
Darby via Woodland
(Short Route) Woodland Av & Island Rd
Woodland Ave & Island Road (Yes, it shows up twice!)
49th & Woodland
(DIVERSION) 40th & Market Subway Station
40th St. Portal
Route 13:
City Hall via Subway
Yeadon via Chester Ave
Darby via Chester Ave
Mt Moriah via Chester Ave
49th & Chester
58th & Chester
(DIVERSION) 40th & Market Subway Station
40th St. Portal
Route 34:
City Hall via Subway
61st via Baltimore
49th & Baltimore
(DIVERSION) 40th & Market Subway Station
40th St. Portal
Route 36:
City Hall via Subway
Eastwick via Elmwood
(Short Route) 73rd & Elmwood
Island Road via Elmwood (the same destination: Elmwood District, but one is for trips from Eastwick)
49th & Woodland
(DIVERSION) 40th & Market Subway Station
40th St. Portal
BONUS: Name every possible rollsign destination for Routes 100, 101, and 102. (Note: Don't forget non-revenue signage)
After I get some sleep...
That's PENNSYLVANIA-Reading Seashore Lines, named for the two railroads that combined service in South Jersey to save money during the Depression.
This photo is from the building of the Wyckoff Station. This is the actual site of the future Wyckoff Station, I recognize the buildings on the right.
This photo shows the el being built with buildings on only one side of Palmetto Street! The run around surface tracks are where the current buildings now are!
Mystery Photos
Can anyone figure out what angle this photo is taken at. The caption reads, "Wyckoff Ave Station - 1914". I would assume this is where the not yet rebuilt 1880's el met up with the 1914 dual contracts el? I can't figure out this one, as the building on the right no longer exists, and it seems like the two el structures run perpendicular to each other.
Also, I can't figure out where on the M line this photo may have been taken. It just says "Lutheran 'Ave' El" - the original surface rails (then trolley rails) neatly in place.
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Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Lutheran Ave runs alongside the NY&A ROW from Eliot Ave to 71 St. There's no el there, obviously, but it's possible that Lutheran once continued south along the ROW, through Lutheran Cemetary, and across Metropolitan Ave, putting it under the el?
I remember arriving via the LIRR, with my parents and paternal grandparents. They were all dressed up, like most patrons were back then. Looking at the pictures I realized that few of those companies (if they're even around) would be able to afford to build pavillions like that today, were another WF held in NYC. And think of the companies not represented in 1964...Microsoft, Apple Computer, and various other huge hi-tech companies didn't even exist! It seemed strange to see all those company pavillions and with the exception of IBM, none was in the computer/software industry. How different from today!
Now that the token has been off sale for a bit over a week I was wondering:
How has the public reaction been over the past week on this? Have you had much verbal abuse heaped upon you? Have there been a lot of $3 cards been sold or have there been more people buying cards with a greater value on them. Have there been longer lines at the MVMs with people waiting to buy the single ride card?
Any other insights?
Nosey minds want to know .
---Choo Choo
-Stef
Interesting. Nice going.
If more people would buy 7 day cards or $15 cards, I'm sure lines for single ride and $3 cards would be alot shorter.
People are still asking for tokens. I guess no one follows the news. I've said it about a dozen times that the token doesn't exist. I personally haven't had any problems with the Customers, fortunately.
>>Have you had much verbal abuse heaped upon you?
I've been lucky in that respect. One of my colleagues wasn't so lucky. It wouldn't count as verbal abuse, more like physical. I don't know you read the post on Station Agent attitudes, but the reaction of one customer was pretty horrible. The Clerk tells the Customer they can no longer purchase a token and the guy comes back and throws a cup of urine in the booth aperture! Pretty disgusting. I'm sure she didn't do anything to the Customer, he just didn't get the picture.
>>Have there been a lot of $3 cards been sold or have there been more people buying cards with a greater value on them.
There are lots of people now buying $3 cards. I give them the two choices, either get a 2 ride card go to the Machine, most opt to get the extra ride.
>>Have there been longer lines at the MVMs with people waiting to buy the single ride card?
At a place where there are 5 MVMs and 2 MEMs the difference is negligible. There isn't a line that I can actually notice. Surprisingly though, since I stopped selling tokens, I'm bagging less revenue at the end of the night.
Hope this helps,
Stef
The Beakies are watching, the Beakies are watching!
-Stef
Something along the lines of:
==================================
Tokens no longer sold (in Red capital letters)
Minimum Metrocard purchase $3.00 (this would be updated to $4.00 on May 4)
For single ride card please use the MetroCard Vending Machines
===============================================================
But I guess this would make sense and we all know how the TA hates do do anything that makes sense.
-Stef
Why don't people raed the signs that the SA might put on the window?
I'll tell you - most are poorly written, are not organized and are laid out in such a fashion that it does not catch the persons eye.
I have done many, many presentations in my 29 years with the bank I work for (who shall remain namesless for the time being) and I can tell you that most signs that the TA prints up are generally overloaded and rarely come directly to the point. The fact that we, as railfans, might understand them means nothing because we are in the minority of the total riding public.
Are they simply layup tracks, because I'm pretty sure no subway yards are near there.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
I'm going to answer from the perspective of the evening rush hour. You can reverse the explanation for the a.m.
Suppose there were a new Broadway express called the #10, which went express after 96. The next stop would be at 137, skipping 103, 110, 116, and 125. For such a service to be worthwhile, it would need to run often enough that passengers traveling to points north of 125 are willing to wait for it. Otherwise, they'd be better off just taking the local when it comes.
But if the #10 ran often enough to satisfy these customers, and existing local service weren't reduced, there'd be a choke point at the interlocking before 137, where the express needs to merge with the local. OTOH, if existing local service were reduced, then the passengers benefitting by this new express, would be offset by those who can't use this train because their destination is between 96 and 137.
For these reasons, skip-stop service is a better way to speed up the line, because there is no merge point.
The only explanation I have every heard that one could use to even somewhat reasonably defend skip stop is that it helps to get the trains back down to the southern part of the route where the ridership is much heavier. Yet that also smells of the TA belief that it is in the business of moving trains, not people. The way VCP seems to back every evening, they would accomplish alot more by short turning maybe every 3rd or 4th train at 137 and eliminating skip stop. That would absolutely get the trains back south quicker and the agrivation of having to watch trains speed by you without stopping on freezing mornings.
There are a LOT of customers who use these stops, save for 125th st, and having half of those trains skip those stations will be a mess at 96th st in the PM rush.
Exterminate the unecessary skip-stop 1/9 setup and have all #1 trains make all stops. This time, have about half of #1 trains terminating/starting at Dyckman St in the AM and PM rush, while the other trains go to 242/VCP.
Even better-northbound locals could turn at 145 (with a spare driver, of course, while the acting T/O walks to opp. end to empty the train going into the relay, because as soon as it stops, it needs to turn around immediately, even if it sits on M track between 145 and 137, as long as it clears the path of the next express (which would stop at 145).
One more thing-why is 137 designated as an "express" stop anyway? Does it have higher ridership than 168? Why does the express have to stop there at all? If it skipped it it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Timers slow down the middle track. It wouldn't make sense to run any type of express service up it.
When I lay up a train at 137 I send it down M, and the local will usually beat that layup to 207th if it doesn't follow the local out of the station immediately.
Elias
The main problem is that #10 is reserved for Lex Avenue service (it is green, 11 is purple, and 13 is red). You're right about the chokepoint. However, if they did short turns after Dyckman, then some problems could be alleviated.
But... 242 Street becomes the choke point, the limiting factor for tph on the whole line. So, as much as an intermediate turn point is needed: little is in the offing.
I have examined the maps of the 137th Street Yard, The most resonable option (according to me) is:
If the east-most track could dive down it could turn under the other tracks and come back up on the west-most track. Then if it is declared to be a revenue track, they would not have to empty out the train, but simply run it through the loop and send it south again.
Elias
I agree with you that an express service north of 96th doesn't make sense, since the busier stations on the line are the ones south, not north, of 137th. The best way to give each station the service it needs is to short-turn some trains at 137th or at Dyckman and to eliminate skip-stop. The bottleneck of the entire line is the north terminal; by adding a second terminal, more service can be run where more service is needed.
Also, I know the #4 line tries to avoid laying up on the middle track unless absolutely necessary due to safety reasons. Maybe its a systemwide philosophy.
I agree with you though about the dark and dangerous. But I guess that don't wnat to pay for you to lay it up down by Mott and ride back.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (href="http://www.railfanwindow.com/lyrics.html">Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Hey, a switch somewhere between Atlantic and Grand Army Plaza would have allowed a real #1 train: 242VCP - Brighton Line!
For the record, there was another West Side service, just called "7th Ave". The local ran from 145 St. - Lenox to South Ferry, and the express ran from 180 St-Bronx Park to Flatbush or New Lots.
-- Ed Sachs
Some of us here would like to see the old pattern restored, with more frequent service below 137th.
We could use more rush hour and weekend service, but midday headways are more than adequate. (Weekend service should ramp up to 12 tph much earlier in the morning -- I shouldn't have to stand before 9am on a Sunday, but I almost always do -- and peak periods in the afternoon and evening should have at least 15 tph. Alternatively, run weekend 3 trains, but not 2 trains, on the express track north of Times Square.)
It was a longstanding tradition for service to be erratic and for those erratic episodes to be remedied by bypassing the busiest stations that depend on the line. That was awful. Fortunately, tradition was broken on September 15, 2002, and now service is generally very good. (You are reading this from one of SubTalk's loudest critics of the line.)
The Lenox Ave - 145th Street Locals also had 5 cars while the 7th Avenue Express ran with 10 cars and they ran to 241st Street.
When the 7th Avenue stations were lenghthened to take ten car locals (with the exceptions of 145th - Lenox Avenue and South Ferry), the 7th Avenue Express ran to the Bronx and the 7th Avenue Local ran to upper Manhattan and The Bronx.
This eliminated the need for so many trains crossing from local to express and vice versa at 96th Street.
Since I grew up on Washington Heights, I don't know what went on over on the East Side Lexington Avenue lines. By the time I discovered the Eastside lines there were ten car locals.
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/nyregion/22REBU.html
As SelkirkTMO always says, free registration required...
---Choo Choo
I'm also glad to see there's an emphasis on low budget short term improvements. Often you can get sizeable benefits with a few bucks.
- New Vesey St bridge, with escalators. Sorely needed to get the areas back to as close to normal as possible.
- Improvements to Liberty St bridge. Also welcome. Hopefully means escalators too.
- Wall St improvements. Not clear what they mean, but it sure is a bottleneck now, with security closing a block of street and 1 of 2 sidewalks.
Did you actually call anybody to see if that was true or not? Who told you they were on 8 hour shifts? The last time you mentioned that, it was off-hand based on casual observation, and you clearly didn't know one way or the other (but you claimed it anyway).
Do you have access to the work schedules? Check the subcontractors to see what schedule they are on?
This bridge will cost $50 million hardly low budget
the $50 million structure is another example of ny government overspending that is designed to boost the govenors relection hopes. The fair govenor has his eyes on a senate seat.
What the public often fails to realize is $50 million here $10 million there in overspending and pork barrel projects adds up.
Our fair govenor is famous for that
This brige will likely be torn down when the final project takes shape. it makes more sense to put a more economical solution and spend the dollars somewhere else
If this helps get Pataki reelected, that's fine by me. Everybody wins something.
They sure will get an earful from me. I will be wearing waist length blue coat, black pants and sneakers and large black knapsack. Of course anyone can show up.
Next month, I will be at the SAS public hearing at the Bowling Green site.
I have written and sent comments for the record on the SAS and Fulton Street projects, with copies to the Mayor and borough presidents...
I salute you, sir. Keep it up.
You have also made a difference by sending written copies of your testimony to Mayor Bloomberg and the Borough Presidents' presumbly in support on these two noteworthy and important projects.
I will be at 347 Madison Ave tonight after 6, so if you (as well as anyone else) want to join me, you are very welcome. You can take a look at some of my interesting pictures too.
And, by the way, someone who opposes a subway because they have to dig to build it is not an environmentalist. The two positions are not compatible with each other.
The reason for the 138th st bypass is to allow the more efficient location of the #5 train without backing up service at 149th st GC. In the AM rush, if the #4 train stopped at 138th st, then the #5 train will have to sit at the horseshoe curve in between. Usually there may be two #5 trains this will force the second #5 train to sit at 149th st, and will cause a bad bottleneck backing up the #2 train behind it. Having the #4 perform the bypass will allow two #5 trains, one at 138th st, the other at the curve, while allowing #2 service to go through normally without any delays. The reverse holds true, it allows up to two #5 trains to sit while a #4 train can bypass 138th st without any delays in switching.
OTOH: The #4 train on the 138th st bypass track in the AM rush is SOOOOO SSSSSSSSLLLLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW in the morning.
Michael
Washington, DC
The problem is the tower. There are wheel detectors on both the express and local tracks to protect the switch at the south end of the station. If this switch were set properly before the #4 approached 138th St, it would not be slow. Similarly, the #5's approach to the station is timed down to 5 mph, if the switch is set for the express.
I've seen uptown trains wait up to 45 seconds waiting for the tower to set the switch properly. I've also seen motormen reading paperback books and not reacting to a green aspect for 40 seconds.
So, it's not just the tower. It takes a team effort to screw things up that bad.
However, there is a blind stop arm just before the Homeball leaving 138 on the s/b track. And I've worked the 4 line during GO's when the 6 relayed on M track at 138, which activates this safety device.
The 4 skips 138 St in the rush b/c 138 doesn't need that many trains served there but as of late 4 trains HAVE BEEN stopping there in the rush.
The MTA's preferred option was to extend the Astoria elevated line, because that's the most straightforward way to do it. The community opposes it, because no one wants a new elevated line in their neighborhood. As it is, most of the remaining EL's are blights on the skyline. It's no coincidence that all of the abandoned lines in the NYC subway system have been elevated lines. The community, by and large, would not oppose an underground line to LaGuardia, but that would make the project significantly more expensive.
Anyhow, it does not appear that the LaGuardia project is being actively worked on at this time.
Brilliant idea. It's been done; it was called the Delta Water Shuttle.
The catches:
- At LGA, only the Delta Shuttle terminal has any kind of easy access to the water.
- The east shore of Manhattan, except from Fulton St south, isn't convenient to subways or business.
My suggestion on Subtalk, which fell on deaf ears here, was:
1. Build an intra-LGA AirTrain with eventual extension along the GC Parkway.
2. Run the ferry to a new dock 100' from the Roosevelt Island subway stop as well as E34th and Wall St.
That was preposed as part of the original Aitrain plan. I have also advocated intr-airport airtrain solution.
It has the following bennifits
1)Allows for easy intra-airport transfers from international to domestic flishts
2)Monies spent for a LGA N line extention could be pooled with the JFK-airtrain supper subway and possible used for a new east river tunnel
3) Opens up the area around shea stadium to convention hall and hotel developement being a conivent place for both large conventions and smaller one day buisness meetings. Business travel magazine rated NYC last among top international airports as having a severe shortage of space convient to the airport for one day business conferences where internation coorportations fly in managers from all over the world for face to face meeting.
Mark
: )
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, those cheesesteaks are messy, aren't they? :-) (But *good*!)
Think of the promotional possibilities: Bagels on the B... Quiche on the Q...
Mincemeat Pie on the "M"
Mark
Another possibilty would be three-way chili on the 3. See Skyline Chili if you've never heard of it. But that one would be more appropriate for the Cincinnati subway if they ever finish it.
and it goes on.... :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
OK I'll stop..
1. Build an intra-LGA AirTrain with eventual extension along the GC Parkway.
2. Run the ferry to a new dock 100' from the Roosevelt Island subway stop as well as E34th and Wall St.
------------
Did you make the suggestion in writing to MTA or elected officials?
When I was at the Port Authority in the early 70's, we felt that was the only possible way to go.
And from there, what would it connect to?
I suppose the only political catch is it doesn't serve LIRR customers (though a branch to Woodside would).
Even better though, how about give the subway access through the Astoria El, and have the new LIRR portion of the LIRR access to Laguardia possibly connect to the new planned Sunnyside station (with East Side Access). This way it would connect to all the LIRR branches.
Peace,
ANDEE
And from there, what would it connect to?
Three ideas - in my order of prefrence:
1) THE (M) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
NORTHERN BOULEVARD
- transfers to Q47, Q66
BROADWAY / ROOSEVELT AVE - JACKSON HEIGHTS
- transfers to (E)(F)(R)(V)(7) subway lines, Q19B, Q32, Q33, Q45, Q47, Q53
QUEENS BLVD
- transfer to Q60, possible new LIRR station
GRAND AVE
- transfers to Q45, Q58, Q59
ELIOT AVE
- transfer to Q38
METROPOLITAN AVE - MIDDLE VILLAGE etc...
2) THE (W) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
49TH ST
STEINWAY ST
- transfer to Q101
30TH AVE etc...
3) THE (11) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
NORTHERN BOULEVARD
- transfers to Q47, Q66
BROADWAY / ROOSEVELT AVE - JACKSON HEIGHTS etc...
And from there, what would it connect to?
Three ideas - in my order of prefrence:
1) THE (M) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
NORTHERN BOULEVARD
- transfers to Q47, Q66
BROADWAY / ROOSEVELT AVE - JACKSON HEIGHTS
- transfers to (E)(F)(R)(V)(7) subway lines, Q19B, Q32, Q33, Q45, Q47, Q53
QUEENS BLVD
- transfer to Q60, possible new LIRR station
GRAND AVE
- transfers to Q45, Q58, Q59
ELIOT AVE
- transfer to Q38
METROPOLITAN AVE - MIDDLE VILLAGE etc...
2) THE (W) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
49TH ST
STEINWAY ST
- transfer to Q101
30TH AVE etc...
3) THE (11) TRAIN
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MAIN TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q33, Q48, perhaps extended Q23, Q72
LA GUARDIA AIRPORT - MARINE AIR TERMINAL
- transfers to M60, Q47, Q48, perhaps extended Q19A
NORTHERN BOULEVARD
- transfers to Q47, Q66
BROADWAY / ROOSEVELT AVE - JACKSON HEIGHTS etc...
Well I gave my shot at it.
I am frok England and as a result do not post frequently on this site. However, the topic of access to LGA interests me. I have visited LGA recently and did so by the M60 bus line. However, this is far from ideal for a traveller laden with luggage as the M60 seems a busy line and at peak times, I assume buses can be packed out, resulting in little space for luggage, aside from the resentment felt by 'normal' passengers towards the person with two suitcases blocking the aisle of the bus.
Taxi and airport bus services are one option but, particularly the former, are not ideal for budget-conscious travellers. These are also subject to the vagaries of traffic congestion, as is the M60 bus mentioned above.
So surely the best answer would be to build some kind of rail-link to LGA. Whilst the concerns of residents over the extension of the Astoria el to the airport are understandable and valid ones, surely on the other hand it would contribute to a huge reduction in road traffic (with a commensurate increase in air quality locally). Whether the Astoria line has the capacity to provide the service to the airport I am not sure, although I would not foresee this as a problem. Surely too a subway link to LGA would be hugely beneficial to the airport itself, as it would then become by some margin the most accessible to Manhattan, via the N and W trains, along with the easy cross-platform transfer to the 7 train at Queensboro Plaza. This I assume would lead to an increase in the number of passengers, therefore an increase in the number of planes using the airport and therefore more jobs (and hence greater prosperity) in the areas surrounding the airport.
Perhaps the station for the airport could be constructed on the outskirts of the airport itself (bearing in mind it would be a terminal and would thus require additional crew facilities and the like) and have a frequent, dedicated bus link to the various terminals at LGA, much as at JFK.
This is merely my favoured soloution to this dilemma, as surely LGA cannot be considered a leading airport with no rapid, reliable transit link to the rest of the city. I would be interested to know what any other subtalkers may think about this, either via this message board or through my personal e-mail.
Thank you,
Tim
Also, the wider issues -- which are good ones -- concerning increasing demand at LGA to make it a premier airport: the underlying motivation might be just the opposite. It's the RUNWAYS that are the bottleneck. LGA is like many "number two" airports (Midway, Reagan, Love Field, Gatwick): passengers like it for its proximity and close gate spacing, but then the runways fill up and the FAA tries to shunt the long flights to the JFK's and Dulleses, which then become the targets of the local transit systems. So all the original issues pertain: a one-seat ride is best, it should be a TA line, the neighborhood wants it underground, the airport bus is still cheaper, the status quo prevails.
7 trains already are overcrowded much of the time. Adding aircraft passengers to the mix would only make a bad situation worse.
A politician thinking in the best interest of his constituants would negotiate and say if you want to extend the el structure you much do the following
1) modern low noice structure. Possibly partially enclosing or otherwise decorating to make it an asset to the neighborhood(paris green line el is a work of art)
2) make improvement to lessen the impact of the current el structure in exchange for the communities patience during construction
These are items that could smooth over the opposition. Once again the opposition is often created by poilicians and "advocacy grouos" which often have an alterior motice
Tooken booth closings are the perfect example. Straphangers campaign along with the TWU spread misleading information to the public creating oposition where there really was none. Politicians wanting a political endorsement and campaign contribution from the TWU jumped behind the cause preaching the misleading information and swaying a public that is often resistant to change
One of the political advantages of more expensive routings to LGA would be the offering of new subway services/stations to communities which want it (like East Elmhurst). That way the pork or corned beef gets spread around.
The PA handed out perks too - street beautification, soundproofing for schools, a new aviation program at York College, a $500,000 annex to Aviation High School's program, a homeowners' resolution program which paid claims quickly, and a construction schedule that minimized the pain, overall.
So you would consider the point at which the 7 climbs out of the tunnel to Main Street to be Corona, not Flushing?
BTW, Flushing does have an El. It's called the LIRR Port Washington branch.
I admit I wasn't thinking about elevated railroads. Maybe they have less of a negative reputation because the trains come less often, and rarely in the middle of the night.
Note that Greenwich, CT, has far more mileage of elevated railroads than Flushing.
1)Darkness. Install natural light fixtures under the el's. There is a fairly new technology that collects the light on top of buildings and redirects the light to fictures inside the building or in our cae under the el.
2)Install a floor under the el that will collect rainwater and reduce the noice under the El.
3)Improve the look of the el by installing ordamental railings and other touches to make el less of an eyesour
Fiber optics?
Even if "eyesour" was a typo, it's a great word for what you meant to describe!
Mark
The 7 practically created Flushing.
One solution is a combination underground-elevated line. You can run the el underground just north of the Astoria Blvd.station. This is a commercial/industrial block that could accept a portal without much opposition. Then build a new underground Ditmars station. This would be billed as significant inprovement for the neighborhood. It would be protected from the elements, open the shopping street to light and space, be ADA-accessible and would be built right at Ditmars, facilitating transfers to the 19A bus. (Right now, the bus is a long walk from the station, which is well south of Ditmars Blvd.) It would also have 3 tracks, allowing transfers from the LAG trains to the Astoria local trains -- and local residents could use the LAG trains for an express ride down to Queens Plaza.
Continue underground till north of 20th Ave (some land from the old Con Ed plant would have to be taken for this purpose), then above ground the rest of the way.
It would cost more than an all-el route, but would be palatable to the neighborhood.
Great post.
Peace,
ANDEE
On a more serious note, for those of you who haven't ridden it, I have ridden it about 15 times (business class every time except once) and would say it is certainly worth at least one ride.
BROAD STREET (BETWEEN BEAVER STREET AND PINE STREET)
SUNDAY, APRIL 27, 2003, 10:00 A.M. TO 2:00 P.M.
In an effort to better coordinate emergency response and interagency communications, MTA NYC Transit will simulate an emergency situation requiring the need for emergency response equipment to be located along Broad Street and along Broadway.
Personnel and vehicles from NYC Transit, the New York City Police Department, the New York City Office of Emergency Management, Fire Department and Emergency Medical Service will respond to the simulated emergency.
We apologize for any inconvenience this exercise may cause and appreciate your patience and cooperation.
Should you have any questions, please call (718) 694-5125.
I can just see it now:
"On my honour I promise to do my best to love and serve God, my Queen my country and my fellow man and OOOOWWWW! IT HURTS!!!!"
-Robert King
or link here
The Millenium Hotel is about to reopen for business.
Peace,
ANDEE
4 ended 149 St, no service between 149 St and Brooklyn (3 ran all night instead).
5 ran via the 2 line from E 180 Street to South Ferry or Franklin Avenue (depending on the time of day).
6 ended at 59 Street to allow transfer to the yellow B, N and R trains.
Shuttle bus service ran down from 86 St to 27 St to get passengers to midtown.
Hope this helps.
I remember being at Broadway Naaasu that PM rush, and seeing the Orange Vest people explaining to the people that were "Surprized" that service was not restored yet, and would not for several more days.
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought all the steelwork for the south side tracks were finished !
Bill "Newkirk"
Wow! They're really dredging up the past! Qs from Brighton Beach to Times Square! Wonder if they still have TIMES SQUARE on roll signs (other than IRT, of course).
Uh, and I'm sure this has been discussed but I still think there are a few good points to having a train from Brooklyn terminating at some midtown station, where the track arrangement permits it. For one thing, it gives the midtown riders a place where they can board an empty train. It works for the commuter trains. You don't see the LIRR having extended branches throughout Manhattan. I know that it's not correct to make a direct comparison between the two different types of railroad services. The availability of trains is another concern. But this could be one of those "new" ideas that could be tried, maybe in conjuction with the notion of skipping express stops for certain times in rush hour. Make available a semi-commuter train type of service within the existing system. Sea Beach trains skipping 36th Street and DeKalb Ave. Brighton Beach trains non-stop from Kings Hwy to Atlantic Ave. I know the "Train To The Plane" did exactly that with the A train. I used it a few times and it was a pleasure to ride. Train scheduling, track conditions, "congestion ahead"....all valid concerns when it comes to running "super-express" trains. Still gotta be cheaper than building new though.....
57th St./7th Ave IS a station located in Midtown Manhattan. Trains leaving 57/7 (even during rush hour) are usually empty until reaching 34th st. That's when the crowds start coming in, most trains have some seats available.
"Brighton Beach trains non-stop from Kings Hwy to Atlantic Ave."
Have you seen how crowded Church Ave (and sometimes Newkirk Ave) can get at 8 in the morning? Kings Highway may be the busiest station on the Brighton Line south of Atlantic Ave, but Church Ave ranks as the second or third busiest station. Think of the outcry of the Flatbush community if your Super-Express plan went through.
Unfortunately, this guy didn't realize it:
Bill "Newkirk"
THIS WORK IS BEING DONE IN PART BY NYC DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, TO REBUILD THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE. WE APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE THIS MAY CAUSE YOU.
N Bwy Line
Mark
And finally, as a matter of preference, if you could only go on one of the trips, would it be the IND or IRT?
Tickets if available on the day of trip are $5 more per ticket.
>>>b) if not, how far in advance should tickets be bought?<<<
The consists of each trip is limited to 3 'B' Division or 4 'A'
Division cars, so tickets will be limited. From past experience,
the payments, which are payable to: "The March of Dimes" are not
processed till after the trips are completed. But don't not hesitate to order your tickets now.
>>>And finally, as a matter of preference, if you could only go on >>>one of the trips, would it be the IND or IRT?
As a personal preference, I would only go on an IND trip, if I had to
do only one. As is, I've ordered tickets for both INDs, but only
one IRT.
Hopefully, we will be covering the original IND routes with the IND
cars, not the BMT Southern or Eastern Divisions. 207th, Concourse,
Pitkin, the Rockaways etc. I know the starting point is on the Centre Street
Subway [BMT] but North to Essex, change ends and thru
Chrystie Street to IND trackage. >A, AA, BB, C, CC, D, E, F, GG, HH<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a question, does acid evaporate? I *think* acid DOESN'T dry up.
Which reminds me, was anyone else thoroughly revolted by those "Please don't lick our poster" pork ads some months back?
So don't sniff the etched glass either.
Well, I didn't happen to see the ads, but given that I'm thoroughly revolted by pork anyway...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't taken Chemistry in four years, but IIRC, acid reactions form H+ ions while bases form OH+ ions. Hence the pH and pOH scales, which show how much of each they form. Those two scales are exact opposites of each other, meaning a pH level of 3 is a pOH of 12.
The average person the street, unfortunately, doesn't know what you know.
Battery 101: automobiles use lead-acid wet cells and lead-calcium (gell cells) which are acid-caustic. When the water evaporates from the electrolyte, a powdery residue remains. It is almost invisible on the battery housing, gets rubbed into your shirt and pants. NEVER
goes away unless you neutralize your laundry...over time, small holes appear which become very large ones. It is hazardous to skin but you wash all the time and skin flakes off.
Trainsets used to use Edison iron cells and I am not familiar with the electrolyte. Now they use NiCads which have a potassium (base) electrolyte with similar warnings. We must wear rubber aprons, long rubber gloves and full face shields in examining, measuring, cleaning and filling the 37.5 volt battery banks since the explosions of the R110 and R142 battery boxes. An error had been made in selecting NiCad cells: years ago, a series of explosions were directly related to metal cased cells and they were replaced with plastic ones. In the R142, batteries went back to metal cased cells which I have found to be excellent conductors at high current. The battery boxes are now vented and use insulators in the mountings
to isolate the case from the carbody.
One word for backyard automobile mechanics: DANGER!!!
Storage batteries are a poor choice for 12 volt utility power...ever notice when the battery went dead because a door was left open? What they are specifically designed for is STARTING where current can exceed 500 Amperes. Safety clothing is mandatory...ALWAYS disconnect the GROUND (negative lead) before electrical work and ALWAYS vent batteries keeping a safe distance when 'boosting.' Of course, we never do, do we? CI Peter
A screwdriver can be used to kill someone, but it is not a deadly weapon until you do so.
A knife or gun is always a deadly weapon given their intended uses, a screwdriver, a hammer, or a bottle of hobby chemical is not.
If you filng acid in the face of somebody, you can be charged with the use of a weapon.
Not a Lawyer: opinions are worth what you paid for them.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
I tried in in Microsoft Word, it suggests "Rail fan" and "tailfin". Both are innocent words. So much for Microsoft being the devil.
Also, what is the cause of missing signboards at Atlantic Av. on the Q tracks? I was confused and had to listen to an announcement on a Manhattan-bound Diamond Q (through the noise of a circle Q arriving on the opposite track which is very loud) before I knew which way I was going.
Can MTA put some signboards here so that people know where they are going?
And I do appreciate the speed of the Worlds Best Express Line too, especially when you leave Propspect Park, it's only 2 minutes to Church Ave, a rarity among express lines that skip one station. And you get the best RF window on a slant R40 yet. It can top nearly 50 on that downhill from Avenue H northbound to Newkirk Ave but since the express stop come on suddenly, it won't achieve that.
It tops off at around 40 MPH. Once and a while you can view the speedometer through the holes left by the advertising frame
There were two kids in the railfan window and I didn't bother to get up because the motorman stuck his foot out of the motorman door, keeping it open the whole time. Last time I wanted to check inside a cab, but it was "gelled off" on the hinges, preventing me from seeing inside. I thought the speed was impressive.
But I love the slants on the 4th Ave express. It's underground, but still fast.
In a few cases, the TA has a habit of putting older cars on routes that do not operate all of the time.
I think that was one of the reasons why the TA swapped the R40s and R68As between the "B" and "Q" back in 1997 or 1998. I think the other reason was that the riders of the "Q" were complaining about the bad service they were getting on the "Q" (provided by R68As at that time).
In a few cases, the TA has a habit of putting older cars on routes that do not operate all of the time.
I doubt that. The B was moved to the Concourse line for the expressed purpose of allowing Concourse to shop only R68's. If the slants are moved to the B, it will mess that system up. The slants can run on the part-time W, achieving the same part-time rotation. Coney Island is due to receive about 100 R42's soon.
wayne
Word that should be there appears in bold.
I remember riding the Q Express sometimes to Brighton Beach...
Two more miles per hour, and it woud've been violating NY State VTL for speeding. Then again, this is transit so as in the film "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", ANYTHING GOES.
You cannot do that on the Scum-Beach line, no way, sorry!
Yup, enjoy it and seeing it has NO timers it makes it bittersweet! At Atlantic, there IS sideboards but it is slanted so you can miss it very easily. As for the top speed on the Q diamond it usually hits 40mph but in some spots like n/b bypassing Av H towards Newkirk Av and BB bound approaching Sheepshead Bay it goes slightly faster.
Does anyone know who does the announcements for the 4 and updated 5?
There were several T/A employees at the front, and a few at the back.
1) What does the T/A test for in newly shipped cars?
2) This set halted outside the boundaries of Gun Hill Road. Is this the brake test?
I forgot the name of it, but the R143 has a system for unused power being returned to the third rail. This is what that spur track at BC is for, and the building along side. Did the R142s come with this system as well, or was it added later? I think that building and track have been added after the introduction of the R142s.
-Stef
R142#7100
Regenerative braking, I believe.
--Mark
AMI
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
I guess no one notes it because they all missed it :)
AMI
1) When did these structures come into place?
2) Are the Culver Express tracks (this portion) still electrified? The wood coverings were wearing away thinly.
3) There was an amber light for the Manhattan-bound Express track at Smith 9 - Sts. I thought that was funny since there are no switches from Carroll St. to Smith 9. Is this signal used for something else?
4) How many switches are there to/from the Culver Express tracks Brooklyn-bound?
2. Yes, and there are some nighttime G.O.s that have the F runs express in one direction from Jay st to Church (imagine a R32 from the tunnel between 7th Ave and Church)
3. There might be a timer on the next signal to prevent the train from coming at max speed down that hill into the tunnel. That's why you saw the amber signal, the next signal ahead is red with a timer.
4. One switch between Jay and Bergen (the start of express service), one reverse switch and one merge in switch at 4th ave. There is a fifth track between Smith-9th and 4th Ave (starts one level down with bumper block) that diverts into both express tracks. Finally, there are leads to layup tracks south of Church Ave and a double crossover on both express tracks before exiting tunnel to the BMT portion of the Culver Line at Ditmas Avenue.
Peace,
ANDEE
I would guess these are temporary while the Bergen interlocking is under construction.
No, just temporary hiatus until the Bergen intelocking gets restored. Unofficially, it may be that the Culver Express may be in service by next year.
The express tracks are currently closed for repairs at Bergen.
Even if the tracks are closed, the signals don't stop working unless they're disconnected.
This makes them much more efficient, but somewhat less colorful.
:0)
Is the Real money train is still in service? If yes when is it in service and what time because I’m trying to take some photos of it to my collection.
Thanks .
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3284.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7243.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7247.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7220.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7262.jpg
Hope that helps....
thanks !
Are the going to scrap the R21/22 rider cars also?
Has “Empty-A “aka MTA ever used R the old R irt units as work motors?
Thanks .
-Stef, Whose Mouth Is Foaming
I thought that all the money trains were going to be removed from service and replaced by armored trucks driving on city streets. Did I hear that wrong?
til next time
R-12, R-14, R-15, R-21 & R-22
Thanks.
Danny
Here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/
To answer your question, only the R-12s have been actually scrapped, all other models are still in work service.
-Stef
It is I. Thanks for providing the information.
Regards,
Danny
These are numbered with 3-digits and there is a fleet where there are 4-digit numbers in the 9000 range.
What is also the numbering of SEPTA equipment?
Don't ask about the exact numbering system of the Septa 3-digit silverliners. It is almost at random. Just google for a roster.
Illustrated here on a non-revenue move.
SEPTA's Kawasaki subway-surface trolleys are numbered 9000-9111.
Mark
What about the line that branched off the NY&LB near Eatontown and met the PRSL at WINSLOW?
I'm not sure why the Philly train stopped, may have had something to do with a storm that destroyed the bridge across Bargingat Bay. But the NYC did run south to about Seaside Heights until WWII. Legend has it that a German U-Boat lobbed a few shells at a loco one night (the land being very flat and undeveloped between Bayhead and Seaside in those days), they then cut the line at Bayhead.
How much of this is true I don't know, but it seems fesible.
The NYC did not operate anywhere close to that area. The CNJ did operate south of Bay Head for a time... not sure when service ended.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3539 was majestically leading the C at Franklin.
Do not build prisons
Do not bomb Iraq
Do not cut jobs
This poor car had all of these stickers placed in three different doorways, with the prison one stuck on the interior door. Are there any other stickers that SubTalkers have noticed?
Screw 'em.
Also the TA has their own silk screen process to print the stickers "in house" rather than let an outsider do it.
At 149 St - Grand Concourse (2 train) I noticed the same thing, where signs reading "149 St - Grand Concourse" are covering the original mosaic nameplates. What was on the original nameplates at that station?
Mott Ave. was the original name for the Grand Concourse below 161st St. The Grand Concourse name was not used for the portion below 161st till around 1927.
And up one stop (on the #5) at 149th Street-Mott Avenue, the only original name tablet so exposed (on the southbound platform between the two stairways) has been damaged by moisture; one of the letters has been affected; some tile has fallen and the mud wall has bubbled and powdered. They should waste no time in making this minor repair. The tile that fell is solid color, dark green in color, except on the letter which is white.
wayne
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
Thanks, Wayne
Uh oh! Look out for Mitch45 who will call this barbaric butchery!
For example, when the MTA renovated Woodhaven Boulevard, they didn't cover up or change the original mosaics. 'Slattery Plaza' still shows. What is that anyway? Is it the current Queens Mall?
Some people may know that I posted this incorrectly at another thread. I apologize for that... I just wish these message boards had a delete feature. Oh well, no point in complaining.
Times Square, Hearld Square, Union Square, Slattery Plaza.
Just a name, just not so well known anymore.
Elias
True.
From my ownperspective, the Jamaica/Van Wyck Station needs more aggressive graffitti removal and periodic crackdowns (arrest and prosecution of vandals).
I was thinking more of Sutphin Blvd, but truth be told, all the Archer Stations are pretty shabbily built and are not aging well.
As for Jamaica-Van Wyck, nothing here looks really wrong.
Except for the men's room, I agree. The men's room is almost sub-civilized. I doubt that I'll venture in there again any time soon. (I know, at least it's there and open-- but still...)
wayne
wayne
wayne
The tracks are coming off the Crosstown line at Nostrand Ave (that mysterious middle track). Seems like a waste of resources to do so. But it does provide an interesting potential direct route from Rockaway to Coney Island without entering Manhattan.
As an interesting little nuance, the article also mentions that the line coming down from the Queens Boulevard line that would have linked up with this line would have been been built with a 53rd Street-style connection. That is, trains could have gone either to the east or west.
The way that things were described, the Crosstown line was then built as planned. The Bedford-Nostrand connection was built out far enough to make room for the South 4th Street connecting line to have been built, but nothing else would have been done until that line was built.
Looks like the V hater's and Gene Russianoff's plan in pursuaing TA to get rid of V have just went up in smoke. AW!!! What a pity, they've just lost battle.
http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/73694.htm
V TRAIN AIMS AT B'KLYN
By CLEMENTE LISI
April 17, 2003 -- EXCLUSIVE
The V train won't be just for Manhattan and Queens riders anymore.
The Transit Authority is planning to extend the unpopular V line into Brooklyn as part of a larger plan that includes a slew of service changes slated for next year, The Post has learned.
The TA wants to bolster service to Brooklyn by running the V on the now-unused express tracks alongside the F train route, down the Culver line to the Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue station, sources said.
"The V has always been under-serviced," said a source. "The line never took off, but this may make it popular."
The V currently runs local from Forest Hills/71st Avenue in Queens into Manhattan through the 53rd Street tunnel and ends at Second Avenue and Houston Street in Manhattan.
The V train was created two years ago after work on the 63rd Street tunnel was completed and the F line was re-routed to that tunnel.
This comes as the TA is looking to redraw the city's subway map next year by restoring service over four tracks of the Manhattan Bridge and re-routing the B, D and N trains there.
The TA said it wants to run more trains between Manhattan and Brooklyn starting in February 2004 by using the newly renovated bridge's four tracks - which have been closed since 1986. Three lines - the Q diamond, Q and W - now cross the bridge.
Under the plan, that number will rise to four - Q, B, D and N - and trains crossing the bridge during rush hour will rise from 27 to 40.
The Grand Street shuttle will also be eliminated after B and D service is restored at the Chinatown hub.
Other service changes include:
* The N train from Coney Island will run express through Brooklyn and go up Broadway after crossing the Manhattan Bridge.
* The B train will run express from Brighton Beach on the Brighton line, cross the bridge to 59th Street/Columbus Circle where it would provide local service to The Bronx.
* The D replaces the W in Brooklyn and will run express from Coney Island along the Fourth Avenue line, over the bridge into Manhattan and proceed to The Bronx.
Comments: This is what I've called "live with it and die with it"
The V is already doing what it should. But there is no downside to a Brooklyn extension; it'll be handy.
-Crosstown 'G' riders are inconvienced, both with their severed link to Queens and 4-car trains.
-The fact that the E and F have seen no improvement in terms of crowding and the V has no real impressive ridership.
Once again, these are not my thoughts, but other posters I've seen around. I am in favor of the V and ride it whenever I can.
A necessary consequence of running more trains to Manhattan. The only way around that in to build another subway line into Queens.
"-The fact that the E and F have seen no improvement in terms of crowding and the V has no real impressive ridership. "
False statement. In fact, the F has eased a little, and the V's ridership numbers show clearly that it is working. The problem is that people like to whine a lot.
They make them up. 50% and 60% capacity sound like guesstimates; 52% or 53% sounds like a fact and will easily get accepted as such with little scrutiny.
I agree that the 4 car trains are an inconvenience. As for the "severed connection", there is none. E & V (an F clone in Manhattan) trains can be accessed at the Court Sq. complex.
-The fact that the E and F have seen no improvement in terms of crowding and the V has no real impressive ridership.
This is complete bull@#!$. The E and F are running under 100% capacity for the first time since WWII.
The V has been a spectacular success. I'm now noticing Queens Blvd. local riders passing up R trains for V trains. That can only mean one thing: the prospect of a one seat ride (emphasis on seat) from the Queens Blvd local to 53rd St and 6th Ave is overcoming the addiction many Queens IND riders have for expresses.
In this case no one else has published the Post's story. That means either that it's just totally false or that it might turn out to be true but NYCT isn't ready to confirm it yet. But in any case, it's nowhere near as close to reality as the B/D switch.
Its nice to hear of such talk, but the fact is TA won't have enough equipment to extend service in any meaningful way such as V to Coney Island. That is, unless a) you assume its temporary until Stillwell terminal reopens; b) it shortlines at Kings Highway or even Church Ave.; or c) replaces one of the existing lines, such as thru M service via the Montague St. Tunnel. Even then it would be tough to see Jamaica fielding sufficient R-46s to fill all needs for the V and G, along with much of the F and R. Even with use of R-32s it would be very tight.
Call me a wet blanket or devil's advocate, but I doubt this will come to anything, and someone will be swallowing crow for some time over the V's well described operational follies. What the V line really needs is better headways to match its mated services, the F and E. This may be possible with the few extra trains Jamaica recovers through the R-143 acquisition, but an extension just spreads out the same unbalanced, unrpredictable and inconvenient service the present V offers.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Isn't the entire R143 order an addition to the trainsets they already have? AFIK, none the R143 order did not cause any trains to be scrapped. Seeing that the L line is almost completely R143 now, isn't that almost an entire fleet extra cars than they had before the R143's began to arrive?
There was also no "W" running between Astoria and Whitehall. I don't see where enough equipment will be available.
On the Manny-B, it was one sided since 1986 except for the brief reopening for express N trains in late 1990. The V to Brooklyn is NOT possible w/o a adequate train car increase and the R160 order should do just that.
Then they should have been assigned to Jamaica Yard and put on the (E), (R) and/or (V) Lines.
As is electrification, but discussing the idea of what it would have been like if steam had stayed on the Els is still IMHO an interesting thing to talk about. You might not like alternate historical hypotheses, but there are those who do.
I will agree with you on this. It can lead to some fascinating ideas. And while, of course, the message content here cannot be directed in any way, I do think it would be a great shame if there were ONLY "factual" topics being posted and discussed. I do note there is a paucity of "alternate routes" beyond extensions of existing lines getting talked about.
The IND Second System seems perfect for this. I also like speculation on what if the Manhattan els remained in service, or something like an elevated three track belt loop around the island had been built, or if the vacuum tube lines had been constructed, or some type of high speed canal system had been put in place on some of the avenues....stuff like that.
It is something I've been giving quite a bit of thought to. But not only the Manhattan Els - all the Brooklyn ones too. Then stick in a couple of few bits of track:
- double track the curve from the 6th/9th Av El to the 2nd/3rd Av El at South Ferry and add platforms on the new through route; close the terminal platforms
- add a curve from the City Hall terminal of the 2nd/3rd Av Els to the Park Row terminal of the Brooklyn Els
- steal an extra two lanes from cars on the Brooklyn Bridge to provide a 4 track line across the Bridge (2 tracks Fulton - IRT; 2 tracks Myrtle - Centre St Loop)
- let the historical actuality of the BMT Subway takeover of the Astoria Line happen, but terminate the El trains at QBP to maintain the connection
I'll get round to drawing a fantasy map of this "what might be" some time... it's quite fun!
an elevated three track belt loop around the island had been built
Was this a real plan?
if the vacuum tube lines had been constructed
Punctures would have been interesting...
or some type of high speed canal system had been put in place on some of the avenues
Splash!
>>Was this a real plan?"
Nagh. I was just skylarking there. There was a horse car belt line at one time. It just seemed like what might have been built if els hadn't fallen out of favor. Like that rail bridge proposed for midtown from New Jersey, with all the non-Pennsylvania RR lines that terminated at the North River using it to get to Manhattan. Imagine that one....a mainline railroad equivalent to the Manhattan Bridge! What a marvelous piece of complicated mechanical engineering it would have been. It would have completely altered the patterns of development that happened in this reality. The Hell Gate Bridge is probably the closest we got to that type of structure, and it is magnificent. But the cross Hudson bridge would have been more central to the cityscape.
I wouldn't mind seeing a citywide elevated moving sidewalk as a transit system either. That's like what I was mentioning in the post. Just like to hear some of the schemes ever proposed for the transportation problems of New York. Now, those skyscraper airship travel stations would've REALLY been cool.....
Then they should have been assigned to Jamaica Yard and put on the (E), (R) and/or (V) Lines.
Well, even though those lines don't use elevateds (well E/R only - there was no such thing as "V" back then, and as for the C, it still ran to Rockaway Park), the track wear and tear would be higher also with heavier trains, even on underground only routes.
Also, it decreases flexibility, in case of emergency reroutes (if a train can't run on an el), not to mention that they may have to use els at some point to go for servicing, etc.
I was referring to the current state of the subways. Those days would have been a more tricky situation, but by no means impossible.
Also, it decreases flexibility, in case of emergency reroutes (if a train can't run on an el),
So it would now be fine on the B, C, D (until 2004), E, the N in Brooklyn, R and V.
Diversions from the E line are not the most likely to involve Els. I suppose you could construe a situation where you could want it on the Culver, but then you could send C trains there instead. Likewise the V line. To a lesser extent, similar things can be said for the R line.
Anyway, the fact in the end was that the TA managed even though they scrapped the R30s. It would have been nice if they'd stayed and it would even have worked quite well, but it was not necessary in reality.
wayne
Just how many are they short to implement this full-length "V" anyway?
wayne
I'm sure they could use some of thoses extra car for V.
As for the V being the Culver Express I don't know. The V runs from 6 AM-10 PM. Wouldn't it make more sense to run the F Culver Express to Coney Island and the V local to Church Ave? After 10 PM, F trains would make all stops to Coney Island. To me at least, this would be less confusing. As for V being the inferior train, heck this V will imitate the old 53rd Street F route from Church Ave to Queens Plaza. It will definitely have more ridership.
The B was express over the D in Brooklyn (perhaps another reason for the swap in 2004?) but local under it in Manhattan.
The Q is local under the W in Brooklyn but express over it in uptown Manhattan.
The Q was always express over the F in Manhattan but whenever extended to Queens it is always local under it.
Anyway, with the digital signs on the R-46s, designating the southbound V as "Sixth Ave. local - Culver Express" while the uptown one is "Sixth Ave. local -- Queens Blvd local" will just be a matter of programming and flipping the right switch (and I'm sure the same will hold true in the future if the R-160s get assigned to Jamiaca Yard).
Adding the V won't decrease service at those stations between Jay and Church or Jay and Kings Highway, and using it as the express presumably won't make people think they're losing service because they're not getting the F trains during AM and PM rush.
It is possible to run the M as the Brighton Local during rush to CI. The Q could become a weekday train while the D would become the 24/7 train, just as it was before the 2001 bridge reroutes. The D on 6th Ave was every bit as popular at nights as the Q 24/7 service is now.
If a Culver express is ever introduced, it should obviously be the V. Everyone is used to the F being a Culver local. Why change it? There hasn't been a Culver express for decades, so it might as well be assigned to a new route, rather than disrupting an old one.
F: Operates between 179 St and Coney Island (whenever it reopens). F express in Queens and Bklyn (between Bergen and Church), local in Manhattan. Operates all times. Late nights (after 10) F local in Bklyn.
G: Operates between Court Sq. and Church Ave via Crosstown Local, all times
V: Operates between Continental and Church Ave. All times except nights (after 10 PM). V local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I believe F should be the express because its the train that is heading further south to Coney Island. It would offer riders south of Church a quicker one-seat ride to Coney Island. V locals will not be as crowded (as the F is now in Brooklyn) because Church Ave is one of its terminals in this plan.
F: Operates between 179 St and Coney Island (whenever it reopens). F express in Queens and Bklyn (between Bergen and Church), local in Manhattan. Operates all times. Late nights (after 10) F local in Bklyn.
G: Operates between Court Sq. and Church Ave via Crosstown Local, all times
V: Operates between Continental and Church Ave. All times except nights (after 10 PM). V local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I believe F should be the express because its the train that is heading further south to Coney Island. It would offer riders south of Church a quicker one-seat ride. V locals will not be as crowded (as the F is now in Brooklyn) because Church Ave is one of its terminals in this plan.
Les, the service plan you posted months ago was quite good, but I believe it too radical for the TA. And as I say, I believe that the TA is locked on the so-called draft. IMHO, the best course of action at this point is for you to e-mail Flatbush 41 and others who have the same general opinion to try to work out a common MODIFICATION to the draft, then each of you to write together or separately to the TA with this suggested modification, stipulating the reasons. The suggested modification should be nearly identical among the writers if separate letters are sent.
I suggested a modification and enumerated what I believe to be cogent reasons in earlier posts. In short, have the B operating 24/7 as CPW local and Concourse local (terminating at 205th, Bedford Park, or 145th, depending on the time), and the D operating 16/5. And you could stipulate in your letters your additional desire for re-instituting the post-game D Brighton Express specials.
The D has operated 24/7 to 205th St since 1940, but the D's service pattern in Brooklyn has changed a number of times. Since everyone agrees that we can't go back to precisely what existed before, we might as well hold constant what has *always* been constant: the D's 24/7 service to the Bronx.
I have yet to see any objective reason for sending the B to the Bronx during off-hours, rather than the D. What some people seem to be saying is, "Change the service in someone else's neighborhood, instead of mine." But all of these competing options are, in aggregate, more complicated. Today, there is no D or B in Brooklyn at all, due to bridge construction, so Brooklyn's getting something new, no matter what. It is better to limit the changes to Brooklyn alone, and the new pattern--once learned--is simpler than all others I've seen.
Again, my big issue here is with ridership patterns. If West End Yankee ridership was greater than Brighton Yankee ridership, then I wouldn't raise so much as a yell about this. However this isn't even CLOSE to being the scenario. Despite the fact that the M had much better ridership on the Brighton than the West End during rush, the M looks like it'll stay on the West End. And now, despite the fact that more Yankee fans ride on the Brighton than the West End it looks like the West End, not the Brighton, will get 24/7 service to Yankee Stadium. Someone tell me this doesn't reek of political influence.
It has become almost routine to equate "political influence" with any decision that's not the one the speaker would have made. Sometimes, the objective weighing of alternatives simply produces an answer that can't please everybody.
Besides, politicians generally love sports teams. If anything, politics would have led to the opposite result as what occurred.
Politicians rarely take subways after a Yankee game, so they could care less about what happens there. They only care more though if their constituents raised a ruckus about it. Hmm...
Okay, okay we're talking about 22% of the year with Yankee games without the playoffs and the World Series. In a typical Yankee season that's close to a quarter of a year.
I am one of those brighton riders who goes to yankee games. I have went to one night game since the service switch. Took almost twice as long to get home. I swore I would never do it again
The MTA screwed over brighton riders even when the D was a brighton service. The Yankee specials suplimental service goes out of service in manahattan .
At least when the d was on the brighton you could take a nap for the long ride home.
"There was more Brighton riders using the old M than West End riders use the M currently. I've heard from other SubTalkers who have worked in the MTA that the West End has strong political pull, particularly the Sunset Park area. "
There will never be the same ridership level on the M coming from brooklyn anymore because many of the jobs that were down town 20 years ago have long moved to midtown or jersey city
As for the M, you're right about there not being as much jobs in lower Manhattan now as there was 20 years ago. I've rode the M several times during rush and two things strike me that lead me to believe it would still have decent ridership on the Brighton:
1. The majority of those on the M train that get on in lower Manhattan during evening rush transfer to Brighton service at DeKalb.
2. Chambers Street (also served by 4,5) and Fulton Street (also served by the 2,3,4,5) have parallel routes in lower Manhattan (and more frequent service) to the M that enables riders to transfer at Atlantic. On any given rush hour, A LOT of people transfer here between the IRT and the Brighton.
I've guess I was unlucky. It happened a few times that the train went out of service in manhattan. The worst part is that there was no announcement until the broadway laf. The train last stop was secound ave
In addition the train went local down the west side
When you're talking about the world's biggest subway system, just how risky do you want them to get?
"I'm also becoming increasingly convinced that the TA isn't really trying to make subway routes more reflective of its ridership patterns, but trying to please strong political influences."
Exactly how does the new proposal reflect that? Who are these political influences that wanted the service pattern designed this way, and what had they to gain by it? What proof do you have?
And in any event, it seems like you're pursuing two different theories. Either they're being conservative (although I hardly see how this plan qualifies as an example of conservatism), or the change has been politically influenced. So, which is it, and why?
Or is this just another example of, "If they didn't design it the way I like, then surely it must be a hidden conspiracy."
Again, this has little to do with "If they didn't design it the way I like, then surely it must be a hidden conspiracy." For the last time, it has to do with ridership patterns. Under this proposal, running the same number of routes on the West End and Brighton during rush is HARDLY reflective of ridership patterns, even after you take into account TPH on these lines. If anything, it's more reflective of political pull. I've heard from people that the West End, particularly Sunset Park, has a lot of political clout. These proposals seem to support that. Again, if West End ridership was greater than Brighton ridership, I wouldn't even argue this. The selfish part of me probably still would not like this plan, but the rational part would understand and accept it.
But I believe that there is also a possibility that the TA is trying to round off corners, much like the B/C terminal switch in its day, which decreased quality of service but simplified maintenance and servicing.
In either case, when your final exams are over, you will need to write not only the TA but also the NYC councilman serving your district (and perhaps the representative in the NY State legislature, as NYS controls the MTA). The letter to the councilman should not go into detail, just that you are upset at the B/D switch and, in brief, why. You should write down now in outline form the points you will want to make in your letters. And, when the time comes, see if you can get other Brighton fans from this board who live in the district to send the same or similar letter to the TA and councilman.
You have my best wishes and full support. E-mail me, when the time comes, if you think I can help with you with the text of your letters.
Harry
Les
To the contrary, every alternative I've seen is either:
-- Obviously worse than the MTA plan, and patently offers no benefit other than maintaining service patterns in Brooklyn that some people view as "traditional" (ignoring the fact that the South Brooklyn lines have swapped many times over the years); or,
-- About the same, but it changes established service patterns in Manhattan and the Bronx, instead of changing them in Brooklyn; or,
-- Based on operating significantly more weekend or late-night service than has traditionally existed on these routes; or,
-- Requires more rolling stock than the MTA has.
Hey, check out the proposal I've posted in the "Pragmatists vs. Sentimentalist" thread and see if there really is a big difference between the pre MB construction map and the routes I'm proposing with both sides of the bridge re-opening. With the R-143's rolling in and R-160's to follow, there should be enough stock.
In other words, (a) if the M continues to serve the south Brooklyn network at all, it should stay where it is, (b) the Q should be the weekend Brighton service, and (c) the Q should remain the local on weekdays.
With all due respect, your conspiracy theory is silly. Indeed, a minority of Brighton line riders, on a few evenings of the year, travel to and from a station on the D, but the vast majority of Brighton line riders the rest of the year don't care what happens north of Columbus Circle. No serious politician would bother arguing over such a triviality. If the West End politicians were as strong as you claim, today's W service would be retained, since Broadway is the more popular Manhattan destination.
If there is such a strong desire on the part of West End riders for M service why do those trains continually run on the West End nearly empty or more to the point, MUCH emptier than when they were on the Brighton. If anything from what I've seen people on the West End seem to favor Broadway Local service than the Nassau during rush.
There are more weekdays than weekend days. If 6th Ave is more used than Broadway on the weekdays and Yankee Stadium is used more by Brighton riders than West End riders, shouldn't it logically conclude that the D should be the 24/7 service on the Brighton???
Before you dismiss something as "silly" I challenge you to ride a D Train after a Yankee game to Coney Island. Observe who gets off where and tell me on what planet is it justified to have the D run on the West End. The "minority" of Brighton riders is much more than the comparatively miniscule number (but politically well-connected) West End riders. This B/D proposal is set up in a way that those who object can be either labelled sentimentalists or conspiracy theorists. The issue here again is ridership patterns. Ridership patterns do not support this B/D switch.
Not many West End riders have use for the M, but fewer riders on other lines do. There's little reason for someone who doesn't want the M to get on the M to begin with on the West End. When the M ran on the Brighton, it was a local, so local passengers would take the M to the next express stop or to DeKalb and transfer there. (As a rule, local passengers on local-express lines will take whatever comes first to the next express stop and transfer there, if necessary.) Did the M carry large crowds from Brighton local stops straight through to Manhattan, or was there heavy turnover at each express station? I strongly suspect the latter.
Broadway is the more popular destination at all times, but the preference is stronger on weekends than on weekdays. That's why the Brighton line -- the busiest line of the four -- has full-time Broadway service in the NYCT proposal.
Yankee Stadium simply isn't a factor. Yes, a few trainloads of Brighton-bound D trains fill up after each Yankee game -- but that's only a small fraction of the trains that run that day, and Yankee games only take place a few days of the year to begin with. Yankee Stadium isn't a factor in assigning a regular Brighton service and it isn't a factor in assigning a regular West End service. Far more Brighton riders prefer Broadway service, even though they know Broadway trains don't go to Yankee Stadium.
A tiny fraction of Brighton trips are to or from Yankee Stadium. Even if a tinier fraction of West End trips are to or from Yankee Stadium (which I don't doubt), why do you ignore the other 99+% of Brighton trips? A substantial majority of Brighton riders prefer full-time Broadway access. Should the tiny fraction going to Yankee Stadium really dictate a service pattern that is in effect 24/7/365?
Here's why I doubt that: 6th av runs right through the heaviest midtown development, and is also closer to the East Side than any other South Bk. Line. I think that during the rush, 6th av is more popular.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
From what I've heard, it isn't just a slight preference, either.
I determine the ridership patterns just by sitting and observing who gets off where. The consistent pattern I used to noticed coming home from Yankee games is that about a third of the train gets off for 4TH AVE service at DeKalb (not just West End). My biggest gripe is if there is far more BMT Southern Div. Yankee riders on the Brighton than any other BMT Southern Division line at nights, why change it??? Why make the majority wait up 20 minutes at night when they don't have to.
I've got more to say David G. but I've got a lot of work coming up. So I'll be incognito for a few days.
Nothing's changed on the M between Fulton and Lawrence. If that's where the crowds are, what difference does it make where the M goes south of Lawrence?
I determine the ridership patterns just by sitting and observing who gets off where.
Um -- what do you hope to accomplish by watching Brighton riders choose between a Broadway train and a Broadway train? They're going to pick (get ready for this) a Broadway train! And between 1988 and 2001 they picked a 6th Avenue train! And between 1986 and 1988 they picked a Broadway train!
The question at hand is whether Brighton riders prefer direct service to 6th Avenue or to Broadway. Without direct service to both lines running concurrently, analyzing ridership patterns won't get us anywhere. Surveys are the only option.
The consistent pattern I used to noticed coming home from Yankee games
Stop right there. You're ignoring 99+% of the relevant statistics -- the 99+% consisting of those not coming home from Yankee games.
Why are you basing a service pattern on what's best for less than 1% of the ridership?
The only thing I got to say about the Yankee Stadium issue; if it ain't broke, if it worked well in the past, if the majority (however small in number you want to make it) of Yankee riders use the Brighton why change it now? Is it truly for the betterment of the whole system or is it for the betterment of a certain group of riders? Call me insane, lunatic, conspiracy theorist, whatever...I'm still not convinced that this proposed plan is politically neutral.
I haven't misunderstood anything. You keep focusing on service to a single point, one point of hundreds, one point that, except for a few hours on each of a few days of the year, is of interest to very few Brighton passengers.
In my reference to ridership patterns, I was specifically discussing what I saw coming from Yankee games on the Brighton D route.
Did you make these observations 24/7/365, or only before and after Yankee games? Because I thought we were discussing service patterns that would be in effect 24/7/365. Even if there is no regular service between Yankee Stadium and the Brighton line (which, incidentally, isn't the case in NYCT's proposal), a special Brighton service could be operate on those special occasions that your observations are germaine.
Now, let's get back to 24/7/365.
Since you wanted to take it to the level of where both sides of the MB was open, let me tell you what I observed during rush. 6th Ave was very crowded. The Broadway line, though also well used, wasn't as crowded as 6th Ave.
That was 1986. Destinations have changed.
Besides, from what I've read here, Brighton service to Broadway was very limited in 1986. Naturally, many Broadway-bound passengers would pursue other options, like riding the more dependable D or M to Atlantic or DeKalb and transferring there to Broadway service, or going to 6th Avenue even if Broadway would have been more convenient.
The Brighton M from Fulton to Lawrence was surprisingly well used, much more than today on the West End. I state that a Brighton M today won't have the same level of ridership as it did in '86 because I hear that jobs have left lower Manhattan. Still, I'm very sure that it'll have much better ridership if it runs on the Brighton during rush than on the West End.
Nobody traveling between Fulton and Lawrence cares whether, two stops later, their train goes to Atlantic or to Pacific. It could go to the moon for all they care. They're off the train by that point.
If ridership between Fulton and Lawrence has dropped, it's because demand between Fulton and Lawrence has dropped or because alternative options have improved.
If you want to trust surveys and take my personal observations as "pontifications" on my part, you're welcome to do so. As a rider (though a kid at the time) who USED the D, M and Q, on almost a daily basis, I'm telling you what I saw.
What you saw was 1986. NYCT is working on 2004. Your observations were relevant in 1986 but they're not relevant in 2004.
The only thing I got to say about the Yankee Stadium issue; if it ain't broke, if it worked well in the past, if the majority (however small in number you want to make it) of Yankee riders use the Brighton why change it now? Is it truly for the betterment of the whole system or is it for the betterment of a certain group of riders? Call me insane, lunatic, conspiracy theorist, whatever...I'm still not convinced that this proposed plan is politically neutral.
You've turned the issue on its head. Nobody's looking for the optimal Yankee Stadium service, since Yankee Stadium is only busy on special occasions. We're looking for the optimal Brighton service. Where do the majority of Brighton riders want to go on weekends? Broadway. So the optimal weekend Brighton service is to Broadway.
Actually, the TA generally has run 4 weekend services. Aside from the present plan, they've generally ran B/D/N/R. Now it will be D/N/Q/R, with N going across the bridge.
I am old enough to remember the original start of the Christie St. connection in 1967 when the TA told Brighton riders how lucky they were in getting one of the 2 crowns of the subway system, the D train and the excess capacity of Sixth Avenue (including the new express run from W 4 to 34th St.)
And of course yes there was the Yankees where no longer would we have to change at Union Square (think Atlantic Ave transfer came at same time as Christie St).
Now we are back to pre Christie times with the Q routing up Broadway...I don't remember anybody surveying me which I preferred. The D was the Brighton, they ran Q's for the few people who preferred Broadway. Now the Broadway is the Brighton and we'll run a few B's to give you an express service and access to 6th Avenue.
And yes, they intend to add 10 minutes to my Yankee trips because assuming this stupid plan has the D stopping at DeKalb where I can transfer to the Q, they would be on the same track. Or will I back in pre historic times and have to transfer from the 4 to the Q either at Union Square or at Atlantic, hardly across the platform which would add 20 minutes to my trips back from the Yankee games.
There is an old saying in sports that nobody loses their job because of injury. Well the Brighton people are losing their D train because of the injury to the Manhattan Bridge because I doubt extremely that the D would have come off the Brighton if the Manhattan Bridge project had not been implemented.
By your posting, BTW, are you an apologist for MTA decision making? Just because those people wear suits does not make them always correct.
Regards
Those polled (not everyone; read up on statistical sampling) preferred Broadway over 6th Avenue by a large margin. That doesn't mean that every Brighton rider prefers Broadway; it simply means that most do. When the B isn't running, the minority that prefers 6th Avenue will have to transfer at DeKalb or 34th. Your alternative would force the majority that prefers Broadway to transfer.
On a few days of the year, for two hours of the day, Yankee Stadium is a popular destination for Brighton riders. On the rest of the days of the year, and during the other 22 hours of the day, it's irrelevant. Times Square and Union Square are popular destinations 24/7/365. A service pattern that is going to be in effect 24/7/365 should reflect the 24/7/365 needs of the passengers, not the special cases that occur a few times during the year.
(As others have pointed out, NYCT could even run post-game specials to the Brighton line if demand is sufficient. Why condemn the full-time ridership of the Brighton line to what they consider the inferior Manhattan service when all you want is a few post-game specials?)
My only connection to the MTA and NYCT is as a passenger.
If someone wants to go to 3rd Ave and 42nd St, and decides the best way to do that is to take a Broadway train to Union Square and transfer to the 4/5/6, do they count as "preferring Broadway"?
If so, that would explain the strong preference for Broadway on weekdays. That is, it's not that Bway is so preferred over 6th Ave as an end destination, it's that Bway trains have a nice transfer to the 4/5/6 that takes them to their actual destination.
A suvey to be valid should be done in such a way that neither side has an unfair advantage over the other.....to take a survey on preferences of Broadway vs. 6th Avenue at a time when only Broadway is running is certainly not a fair survey....perhaps many of the people living closer to the Brighton who prefer 6th Avenue are now takng the F train at McDonald but would find it more convenient to use the Brighton if it were going only to 6th Avenue...in a similar vein if we took a survey 3 years ago before the advent of the Manhattan Bridge repairs, there certainly would have been a preference for 6th Avenue among Brighton riders as perhaps those preferring Broadway would opt for the IRT (still using the old names) for their Broadway-7th Avenue service.
Making the Brighton primarily a Broadway service certainly does cut down the options for Brighton riders who wish to go above 57th Street no matter what rationales are used. It is clear the Brighton line is the bread and butter of the old BMT/IND and should get the most preferential service which, like it or not, is the D train. The only service plan that makes sense is D trains 24/7 on the Brighton line, Q trains supplement on weekdays as the Brighton local (D express weekdays) and the B train on the West End. No problem for those riders on the West End needing Broadway as they have across the platform transfers at 36th St. to the N and the R. And since more Yankee fans use the Brighton than do the West End, that certainly should be a factor in these decisions.
One other thought on surveys. I doubt if the MTA spends the millions of dollars the networks do on surveys on such trivial matters as Presidential elections....and the networks never get it wrong (unless you want to count Florida in 2000 when the networks called Florida for Gore and Jeb Bush made a few phone calls and suddenly Florida was for Bush the only time in history the surveys were supposedly wrong. Or were they? Just food for thought of how we ended up in the mess we are today with somebody wo wasn't really elected President)
Is that what you're trying to say?
Actually, Broadway offers more and better options to reach points above 57th Street. Yes, 6th Avenue does have direct service, but it's on the IND, which is by far the least popular (and, apparently, least useful) way to get north of 57th. Transfers from the IND to the IRT are garbage. Those heading uptown on the IRT -- the way most head uptown -- are much better off on the BMT, with its full transfers at Union Square and Times Square.
Not if you're already on the train.
(Of course, anyone bound even for CPW has to transfer from the D, since the D bypasses the length of CPW. That's a small advantage, I suppose, to running the B rather than the D on the Brighton.)
Would it pay to get off of a train just to wait on another during off hours, or ride through to your stop and walk a few extra blocks?
Say I'm going to 96th and Broadway. Would I be better off taking the D to 59th, waiting there for the B/C, going to 59th, and walking, or taking the Q to 42nd, transferring to the 1/2/3/9 (any will do!), and going straight home? Between the walking and the waiting, sticking to the IND would probably cost me 15 minutes.
And, yes, and East Sider wouldn't use the IND. The BMT is obviously the better choice for an East Sider.
The problem is that the MTA's current off peak service patter of full length trains at long headways makes transfering at 10 pm a royal pain in the ass. Enough to keep me from going to many games vs sleeping the whole way home on one train.
I am going to the game tonight. If it turns out a 2 1/2 hour fiasco like the last game i went to last year. it may be the last game i take the train to. will just have to drive in
I must interject here is David's defense. He has proposed a plan that has the D staying on the Brighton with the Q. IMHO, his plan is superior to the TA flip-flop plan and it would be a pity if he did not present it to the TA in writing. In case you missed it, you ought to check it out, in a post of less than 24 hours ago.
If having to change to the D at Pacific or 34th is that much of an insufferable hardship for the "vastly greater majority" of Yankee fans on Brighton, then those riders need to get off their duffs and present FACTUAL evidence of how such inconvenience is harmful to them. Since Yankee home games aren't every night during the season, it might well be possible to convince Transit to run a few "Yankee Special" B expresses after games. And, to justify such special service, *only* people showing tickets from that night's game can board.
The Pre-1986 plan had the M as the Brighton local, with VERY LIMITED #'s of Q trains operating only during the rush in one direction. The "M" is NOT supposed to return to Brighton. If it did, that would be a TREMENDOUS drop in present service levels.
Now the D which was the 24/7 express train to Yankee Stadium is proposed to go on the West End
How many Yankee fans are going to the Brighton every game? At most, this affects the riders of 2 weekend trains (not lines, im talking an actual 8-car R68 train), only when there are Yankee Games. Asking them to transfer across a platform once a week is not a big deal. If it were a REAL BIG ISSUE, a special train could be operated after yankee games, running from 167th st to Brighton. Is it that big of an issue? Nope.
I've heard a couple of times that the West End line, particularly Sunset Park, has strong political pull. This is a proposal that supports that notion.
Fulton Av riders do not have a direct ride into the heaviest part of the Midtown Financial District. Must be a race issue by the MTA, eh?
Well think God. Its about time the TA is gonna make my day. I can't stand that stupid shuttle train and bus. What a wastes of TA's money. I can wait the TA DESTROYED THOSE STUNKEN SHUTTLES FOR GOOD
I mean too many trucks and cars
Ha! you tell me. they even fall asleep on the bus during break session. I once had a little friendly conversation with bus driver recently. I gotta tell you, they don't like this grand street shuttle bus operation. He said rather drive M103 or M15 than this. He said the traffic is terrible in both ways getting to canal. Everybody avoiding this only bus and uses M103, M15 instead. IT bored the heck out of him when one is on the bus.
You mean southern Brooklyn (Coney Island, Brighton Beach, the West End). Brooklyn gets direct service on the A and C.
--Mark
That confirms it. It's definitely Fresh Pond Road on the M. Up until about 1990 or so, On the track destination signs, all the M stations north of Myrtle had:
M-Nassau Street local (in light blue I believe)
SS-Myrtle Ave Shuttle (in green)
I hope this will help you .
Best wishes .
R32
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't be fooled !
If this is a fantrip, anything goes. I've seen some photos of "arnine" fantrips where numbered rollsigns were used. A fantrip on the Culver had the #5 sign on it.
When the museum "arnines" were actually in revenue service on the (QB) #1208 was signed up (QB) and that even looked like an R-32 sign.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think so, that arnine has no sealed beams, they yould not have pulled curtains out of 32s before the advent of beams.
Elias
Given the train's location and crowding, its probably not in revenue service. The last car of an 8-car train with standees wouldnt be at that platform location, next to the bus depot, and that camera angle wouldnt be possible. Chances are a 4-car train wouldnt have that level of crowding.
The "D" sign is not out of the ordinary since the then-museum R1/9 train was used for one trip a day on the Brighton Line. Though it was customarily a "QB" trip, it could have easily been snatched for a "D" or "M", the other two routes that shared the Brighton Line in the early-mid 70s.
Another great shot!
Elias
The buildings out in the distance invotked in my mind the Coney Island neighborhood.
I didn't recognize that brick wall, but the Culver was never one of my favorite runs, not the Culver section so much as that darn Smith-York-Essex bottleneck.
AMLTST
(from subwaywebnews.com)
til next time
Nope, when the (HH) was discontinued in 1946, the R-1/9's didn't have sealed beam headlights. This was probably a fantrip.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wondered about that when I saw those sealed beams...
I *was* on an ERA fantrip back in the 70s' that took Arnines out on a "Rail Grinder" trip and it included Court Street.
They showed us the tower, but told us not to touch it, because it was in use.
Elias
Headlights.
Bill "Newkirk"
There are no headlights on top.
Headlights, like the ones on buses, cars, trucks etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
Later (probably beginning with the R16s but don't hold me to that) a pair of sealed beam headlamps were added to the cars and eventually retrofitted to the arnines and artens.
The HH train in question had those 'added' headlamps clearly lighted, marking the photodate post light installation. The HH train never ran in service with those headlamps, thus marking the photo as a rail-fan trip.
Elias
The 'taillights' were not sealed beam. I *think* they had a clear lens like the marker light, but *I THINK* they were either white or red depending on the position of the reverser. *I THINK* it was electrical (two bulbs) but it may have been a sliding filter or something akin to the top, but I'm not sure.
SELKIRK where are you... come and bail me out! What about those bottom lights!
Elias
Newkirk here, not Selkirk !
Those marker lights, you call tailights originally had two bulbs divided by a red glass lens. The outer fresnel lens was clear, so when in operating position, the first lamp would light. This was before the sealed beams were installed.
When the train would change directions, the second lamp behind the red lens would light and act as the red marker light. This set up was on the early arnines, I think the later ones had a lever to move the red lens, though I'm not exactly sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember being on an ERA Lo-V fantrip sometime around 1975.
The Lo-V went bad order at Rockaway Park. It had an air leak.
They substituted a 4 car set of R1/9's from Rockaway Park yard to finish the trip. The next stop on that trip was Court Street. This was before the museum opened.
I think that picture may be from that trip.
That's true Conrad, since the station was essentially abandoned I think the TA painted those columns blue/cream since the station was used for movies.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway, here's a link to today's article on the Saw Man:
Moses E. Josiah... Maestro of the Musical Saw
NY Post article:
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/74022.htm
OLD FARE'S IN STILE
By CLEMENTE LISI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRASS FROM THE PAST:
Tokens will still be welcome at the Roosevelt Island tram.
April 22, 2003 -- EXCLUSIVE
You don't have to log on to eBay to get a subway token -there's still one place in town that can accurately be called a token booth.
One week after the Metropolitan Transportation Authority stopped selling tokens, the metallic dinosaurs are still legal tender on the Roosevelt Island tram.
And that makes the booth at TramPlaza on Second Avenue at East 60th - the Manhattan terminus of the much-loved tram - the last of its kind.
"It's completely strange that I am one of the last people in the city to still sell tokens," said Ionel Teodorescu as he stood inside his booth.
"People still like tokens," he said. "People feel a connection with the person in the booth. Plastic cards can't give you that."
On the Roosevelt Island side, riders can buy tokens from vending machines.
The token remains the coin of the realm on the tram because it is run by the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp. and its turnstiles do not accept MetroCards.
The tokens are still selling for $1.50. But it's not clear whether the tram ride between Roosevelt and Manhattan islands, and the tokens used to pay for them, will also go up in price.
The Roosevelt Island tram - the only one of its kind in North America used for mass transit - opened in 1976 as a temporary means of transportation when many island residents feared the Transit Authority would never get around to providing them with subway service.
A long-awaited subway station was completed in 1989, when the TA opened an underground stop connecting the island to Manhattan and Queens.
Plans to eliminate the tram were scrapped after it became wildly popular with island residents and tourists.
It carries 26 million riders a year.
RIOC bought 7,000 tokens from the TA last month so it could keep the system running after tokens were phased out as part of a plan that included raising the bus and subway fare to $2.
Tram riders said they could take the F train to the Roosevelt Island station, but would rather pay and enjoy the scenic route over the East River.
Despite the fact that tokens are still being sold in a convenient Midtown location, New York's so-called "last" subway tokens are going for $5 apiece on eBay.
I love the Tram. When I visited Roosevelt Island years ago, I rode the Tram one way, then took the Q subway the other way. The subway station was very nice too, and the island shuttle bus dropped me right in front of it.
Tokens Still Used on Roosevelt Tram
This article is the only place I've heard this, including the fare control area of the Tram.
And it is probably incorrect. The article also said tokens would not be accepted on buses after May 4th.
Tom
What a difference in ridership numbers between the two articles:
New York Post-
----------------------------------
"Plans to eliminate the tram were scrapped after it became wildly popular with island residents and tourists.
It carries 26 million riders a year."
-----------------------------------
AP-
-----------------------------------
"But the Roosevelt Island tram, which takes nearly 1 million people a year from Manhattan to the East River island, will continue to use the tokens indefinitely"
But if you see it on AyPee, *COUNT* on it having been written by a clueless Jennifer who was handed the assignment after getting doughnuts for the editor as part of the 4 credit hours ... :(
Sorry, I was taught by Fred Friendly, Bill Paley and others that the ROLE of a "journalist" is to be a POORLY paid "witness" and that the "5 W's; Who, What, When, Where, Why" were PARAMOUNT. The JOB of a reporter is to delve into a newly found story, obtain the details, cross-examine third parties, and find a FIRST party who will give you a quote you can print. THEN, you need to have three corroberating witnesses that your editor can CALL and CONFIRM the facts behind the story you want to print ... WITH attibrution! If the cops asked you to NOT print it, you'd SIT on the story for a "reasonable amount of time" and then, if stonewalled, print it ANYWAY.
NOTHING made it to print based on speculation, press releases, or spin without INVESTIGATION, and you didn't take ANY politico's word for ANYTHING unless you could confirm or deny it independently. As I got to work with the "press" over the years, I came to know lazy-assed people who would stroll into a room after the "photo-op" began, grab a press release off the table by the door, sit in a chair for a "reaction shot" and then LEAVE without paying one IOTA of what was being said or what it was about ... and CERTAINLY not setting off the BS detector and asking pointed questions. :(
Sorry, but the role of the PRESS is NUMBER ONE in our Constitution. The banks of clueless Jennifers and their MANIPULATORS offend me to NO END. "A FREE PRESS" is sacrosanct, and all we gots is street whores like Geraldo. :(
=====================================================
I WANNA BE EMBEDDED
(to the tune "I wanna be sedated" by the Ramones
=====================================================
{Refrain}
Twenty-twenty-twenty-four hours of news
I wanna be embedded
Nothing to do, no where to go-o,
I wanna be embeddeded
Just get me to the airport, put me on a plane
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go insane
I can't control my camera, I can't control my mike
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a taxi, get me on a plane
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go insane
I can't control my bladder, I can't control my brain
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a unit, put me in a hole
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go loco
I can't control my airtime, I can't control my dish
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a Humvee, get me to the show
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go loco
I can't control my camera, can't hear my IFB
Oh no oh oh oh oh
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
GoGo's concert in Central Park back in 2001 featured that tune, I think they did it better than the Ramones. Available on DVD Video, and WELL worth it ... sing along. :)
There are still true journalists out there; unfortunately, they're stuck doing what the person signing their paychecks tell them what to do - sell newspapers and please the advertisers. Unbiased and independent doesn't put food on the table.
First, MetroCard was an enormous step forward. Thanks to MetroCard, we have free bus-subway transfers, subway-subway transfers (in some locations), fare discounts, and 1-, 7-, and 30-day unlimited rides. None of this was possible with the token. On top of that, a MetroCard weighs less than a credit card. It's a lot easier than carrying a bunch of coins in your pocket.
I forget the exact statistics, but something like 90% of all fares are now paid with MetroCard. To maintain two fare-collection systems would be idiotic. The system that is being used to pay less than 10% of fares should be the one to go. Most other modern transit systems have gone to some kind of electronic medium; many others had it before New York did. Let's not go backwards.
Where do you get your statistics about "machines are always unsupplied" or "60% still have problems day to day?" The Iraqi Ministry of Information?
Where do you get that?
MEGA made a stupid statement and backed it up with bullshit. I called him on his bullshit. If he chooses to take that personally, fine. I'm not going to baby anyone and consider everyone's opinion valid, because they are NOT.
Everyone makes mistakes at some time and you can forge these instead of staring a flame war.
What happen to forgive and forget in Jewish culture?
You make one mistake and then try not to make the same mistake again.
You do remember that we learn from our mistakes?
R32
All they need is a bit of cleaning
Good bye tokens. I have not use one in 5 years.
ebay is going to have to wait a long time before I part with them.
oh yeah, I keep one on my keyring for good luck.
wayne
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Source: NY1 Transit Beat
According to the TWU, one token booth will be closed in each of the following
subway stations, with the affected subway line indicated in parentheses:
CLOSING IN JULY
MANHATTAN
Broad Street (J)
207th Street/Washington Heights (A)
175th Street (A)
188th Street (A)
135th Street (A)
34th Street (A)
23rd Street (C)
Broadway-Lafayette St. (F)
Houston Street (1) [2 booths] <-----------owch!
Wall Street (4)
Fulton Street (4)
23rd Street (6)
33rd Street (6)
BROOKLYN
Ocean Parkway (D)
Lawrence Street (R)
59th Street (R)
95th Street (R)
Ft. Hamilton Parkway (N)
New Utrecht Ave. (N)
22nd Avenue-Bay Parkway (N)
West 8th Street (D)
Greenpoint Avenue (G)
Myrtle-Willoughby (G)
Bedford-Nostrand (G)
Bergen Street (F)
Ft. Hamilton Parkway (F)
Church Avenue (F)
Ditmas Avenue (F)
18th Avenue (F)
Avenue N (F)
Kings Highway (F)
QUEENS
Woodhaven Blvd. (J)
Hudson Street (A)
Rockaway Blvd. (A)
111th Street (A)
63rd Drive (G)
67th Avenue (G)
Sutphin Blvd. (F)
Parsons Blvd. (F)
Vernon-Jackson (7)
BRONX
167th Street (D)
Fordham Road (D)
Bedford Park Blvd. (D)
Pelham Parkway (2)
CLOSING BY YEAR END
MANHATTAN
Fifth Avenue (R)
Cortlandt Street (R)
Fulton Street (J)
Spring Street (C)
Rector Street (1)
Wall Street (4)
28th Street (6)
BROOKLYN
Kings Highway (D)
86th Street (R)
Rockaway Avenue (C)
15th Street/Prospect Park (F)
Flatbush Avenue (B)
QUEENS
Woodhaven Blvd. (G)
33rd Street/Rawson (7)
46th Street/Bliss (7)
BRONX
149th St.-Grand Concourse (4)
East Tremont Avenue (2)
Hopefully when the work equipement leaves we'll get the evening Woodcrest Locals and Lindenwold Expresses back, and maybe higher TPH off peak.
AMI
Car classes from the R62 on never lived through defferred maitance. They've received scheduled and continue to recieve maitnance all along, so a full GOH program is unnecessary.
:-) Andrew
As for the R62 and cars after them, a second GOH is not needed seeing that they buy kits for the cars, the system is at an all time high of cars not breaking down and the R62; built by Kawasaki was always a dependable train car usually breaking down FAR LESS than its counterpart the R62A built by Bombardier. Really the R62's got new black floors; as well as other classes; and other modifications like half cabs instead of full width cabs on selected cars.
Secaucus is gearing up for yet another rebirth as a major commuter center. By the end of the year, virtually all New Jersey Transit train lines operating in northern New Jersey will converge at the Meadowlands Transfer Station, nearing completion at Allied Junction in the southern part of town. Initially, the giant 205,800-square-foot station will handle 70,000 commuters daily on their way to or from New York City. According to a state master plan for the region, Allied Junction will eventually be the hub of an improved rail system that will include double-decker cars, more powerful locomotives capable of pulling longer trains and new tunnels into the city.
"By next year, commuters who now take the ferry or transfer to the PATH train in Hoboken to travel to Manhattan will be able to disembark at Allied Junction and take the train directly" into Penn Station, said Mayor Elwell. "The ride will take just 12 minutes and will save commuters 17 minutes."
Plans for Allied Junction call for the eventual replacement of a number of dated warehouses and factories by four 70-story office towers, a 600-room hotel with a conference center and retail stores."
NY Times story
No, those are M-2/4/6
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW - This wasn't a fan trip. It was a July 4th "Nostalgia Special" run by the NYCTA. There was also one on Memorial Day and Labor Day pf 1980.
Bill "Newkirk"
For example, when the MTA renovated Woodhaven Boulevard, they didn't cover up or change the original mosaics. 'Slattery Plaza' still shows. What is that anyway? Is it the current Queens Mall?
Way ahead of you.
If It's Noon, It Must Be Bed-Stuy
1-718-694-5100
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
-Larry
That tells me as much as I knew before I read the post or Washing Post,it's a Brighton Line Trip sponsored by the New York Transit Museum and lists the number for general information.
WHY isn't the information posted on the Museum Web Site, for those of us that desire the wisdom of what the itinerary is? This is the age of the information super highway. DAH!!!
8-) ~ Sparky
I read Hey Paul's link and it seems this guy does walking tours of
various neighborhood[s]. But if you are sponsoring an event, do you
not list it on your website. Or am I in a different world? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Maybe this trip is only for residents of DC?
They don't want us New Yawkers to know about it! :-)
Yea, no "Railfans" AKA Foamers. >GG<
I do not want to take away from a "Transit Museum" event, but on
Saturday, May 17 it's a Subway Weekend at the Shore Line Trolley
Museum, East Haven, Conn. www.bera.org. Foamers Welcomed. Ride
a Subway Car for a NICKEL. Guest Operator option also available.
8-) ~ Sparky
HOW does that work?
>>>"HOW does that work?"<<<
You purchase an admission to the Museum a\o pass, since you ride
the Streetcar to reach "Avenue EL", the Rapid Transit Boarding
Area in the Yard Area. When boarding the selected Subway\EL Car
you pass thru the Station House and a NICKEL is charged to ride
the Rapid. So it's admission plus five cents. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
CORRECTION: that's every 3rd weekend starting in May. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
And if you come on a Rapid Transit Saturday (except May) you'll have the unique opportunity to see my ugly face... keep the camera pointed at the equipment and it'll be safe :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you come with a camera, the elevated station looks right, just be careful of your angle since she's on the ground & is ADA complient with a ramp. Our BU car, that is 100 years old this year, did have a trolley pole at one time in NY. The others have one on a single end so you can photograph her from the other side.
Sometimes you'll get a Brooklyn or Manhattan trolley for the meet & some times she may be from Johnstown, Montreal or Connecticut ;-)
So does this mean Unca Steffie's going to be stuck behind the jailbars all day? And does he get a bucket or will he be issued nickel bags? Seriously, glad to hear you got the turnstile done, I trust the museum managed to find a fare pedestal to go along with the exit ratchet assembly?
I'm looking to be up there on 5/18 and assist Big Lou and JohnS. I'll be holding the bag of nickels and doing the paper work.....
-Stef
I guess that tears it then, 6688 is going to have to get some field modifications once the paint's on and some stainless slapped on so you can have your NEW 6688 ...
-Stef
-Stef
------------------------------------------------
BOROUGH TOURS: Jack Eichenbaum (718-961-8406) typically leads two- to four-hour walking tours of one or two neighborhoods.
Upcoming tours include:
-Flushing (April 27, 11 a.m.-2 p.m., $12; sponsored by the Queens Historical Society, 718-939-0647 Ext. 17);
-Harlem's boundary (May 10, 11 a.m.-2 p.m., $15; sponsored by the Museum of the City of New York, 212-534-1672);
-Brooklyn's Brighton line (May 17, 10 a.m.-5:30 p.m., $25; sponsored by the N.Y. Transit Museum, 718-694-5100); and
-Queens parklands (June 15, 2 -6 p.m., $12; sponsored by the Queens Historical Society, 718-939-0647).
Bottom line then is that this tour is probably not using Museum Equipment, but is a guided tour of the line itself. It must be part of the same tour program in which Doug gives his South Brooklyn tours.
Also, I overhead the brakeman say "The seal is good".
What does this mean?
1) the train was brought into the station (from the east or from the west) by a yard crew, so whatever brake tests they may have performed become invalid once they have keyed off the train.
2) As soon as someone opens the doors, everybody is going to pile on, Including the road crew who is to take the train to Long Island, so there really is no way that it can be done without pax onboard. Especially since the dwell time for loading a train may be as short as five minutes.
3) the engineer needs to key in to start the brake test, but the test as conducted from the rear end of the train is done by a car-knocker rather than by the train crew. (An AMTK car-knocker, BTW)
4) They car-knocker uses the buzzer to ask for release, and application, and to confirm that the pressures at the end of the train reacted correctly to the release and application of the brakes. The intercom was never used. The train crew, other than the engineer did not participate in the brake test.
5) would the engineer have to have keyed off enroute, then the conductor or brakeman would have had to conduct a new test with the engineer.
Elias
Now, in comparison to the SAS, *this* is a project whose bang for the buck is really questionable: something like $2-3 billion for just two more stops (Penn Sta. and Javits).
On the other hand, I do see the benefits. It would put all three of midtown's major interstate transit hubs (GCT, PABT and Penn Station) on the same subway line. And it would connect all three to the Javits Center, which has always been at a disadvantage compared to other cities' convention centers due to its poor accessibility and its being located basically in the middle of nowhere. And yes, property values in the area probably would go up with better transit connections. Is that worth $2-3 billion, and can the #7 handle the extra demand? I'm not yet sure.
But only two stops?
According to what source?
I'm just musing. This is very casual thought (and would entail additional expense - probably not worth it anyway).
I don't know how feasible it would be, but it sure is an interesting idea you have there.
The one man crew switch would be quick because he/she will not actually be controling anything
A final decision to award the 2012 Summer Games is still several years away. Due to the complexity of this project, it needs to be well underway before NYC knows for sure whether it is getting the Olympics.
Also, NYC2012 has represented to the IOC that the #7 extension has economic benefits independent of whether NYC gets the Games, and will be built regardless. I'm not sure whether those benefits adequately balance the costs, but the project is evidently being pursued on that assumption.
The only problem is that if the olympics do not get awarded to NYC, private sector developement will be slower. IF the olympics do come, developers will be racing to get there projects completed by the 2012 thus adding tax dollars to the tax roll sooner
Bloomberg is doing a dam good job of setting the city up for a more prosperous future. Put it this way. If bloomberg was the mayor instead of Guliani the past 8 years. The city would not be in the finacial crisis we are in now
The west side redevelopement blue print is a prime example. Bloomberg and docteroff are going from business district to business district from flushing to downtown brookly to LIC and adrressing issues that effect why developers are not building in NYC and building along the hudson waterfront instead
1)doentown brooklyn. - last week bloomberg release updated zoning to allow office developement as of right in the areas ajacent to metrotech removing the unofficial hight limit that made developent not attractive
2)LIC - bloomberg rezoned formerly manufacturing areas to allow office developement and adress the secound most deterent for building in LIC that is the shaddy dirty looking streets. The city will invest in sprucing up the areas with more santiation patrols and tree and flower plantings
Throughtout the guiliani adminstration he ignored the boroughs even as the office market was tight and companies moved to NJ because they needed more room. Companies wanting to move to NYC cound not because they could not find enough quality space
Too true. For decades since Consolidation, City Hall was Manhattan-centric. On the other hand, IND big wigs did have the vision to see the economic potential of L.I.C. and Downtown BK (and all points in between) when they built the Crosstown Line.
Other potentially great downtowns would be The Hub, Jackson Heights, Flushing, Jamaica, and even the Broadway Junction and St. George.
By the way a great new line would be a Kissena/Parsons Blvd line connecting Flushing, Queens College, and Jamaica. With possible extensions to Laurelton and the Bronx.
It is a shame that past mayors ignored all the assets in the outer boroughs. The borough president especially in brooklyn(howard Golden) were not exactly throwing out the welcome mat.
You see, if you don't try to do something you can not be blamed for it failing. Howard Golden was Brooklyn Borough president for decades, I can not tell you one thing he did
The current BP Marty "the clown" markawitz is a total hack. He clame to fame is a shape up brooklyn campaign where he went on a diet and let everyone know. He had the nerve to come to brooklyn techs homecoming a few weeks back. He made a story up that Jews and muslims pass each other coming out of religious services.
I two long time high school buddies on each side of me. One was a jew the other muslim
Muslims pray around noon on fridays
Jews after sundown.
It is highly unlikly they past each other on the street coming out of the mosc or temple
Observant Muslims pray five times a day. There is no reason they shouldn't pass Jews coming out of a synagogue. And Jews do not go to Synagogue only on Friday.
"He had the nerve to come to brooklyn techs homecoming a few weeks back. He made a story up that Jews and muslims pass each other coming out of religious services."
You may not like him, but he did not make up that story.
Jimmy :)
From where the location of the purchsed/condemned buildings are likely to be, according to the Newsday story, it sounds as though if there is any Port Authority stop on the new 7 extension, it would be on the Ninth Ave. side of the bus terminal. That actually makes sense, since that would put the new station a full two aveune blocks west of the Times Square stop, where a station at Eighth Ave. would not.
(The question after that would be where would the stop near there be -- lying directly across on 41st St., or south of 41st on Ninth Ave. itself, if the MTA opts to turn the 7 extension south on Ninth to go to 34th St., and from there west to the Javits Center and the proposed Olympic stadium. Doing that would make the extension as zig-zaggy a route as the Flushing line already is between 33rd St. and Hunters Point Ave. in Queens, but it would permit a stop at Ninth and 34th that could serve the new Amtrak station in the Farley Post Office building. It would also allow the route to avoid a second tunnel conflict problem, with the three Lincoln Tunnel tubes on 11th Ave. between 37th and 41st streets.)
BTW, I believe the end of the #7 trailing tracks are right against the wall of the lower level of the 8th Ave ... some have even said there is a small door there.
The 7 Extension will result in very good bang for the buck. The property values alone if the developement gets done will pay for the line in a matter of a decade. Plus if they get the olympics. It will be even sooner. Without the olympics getting developement projects out of the ground will be slower.
The 7 will to the west side is like printing money. The lower property value and thus tax revenue due to the west side being far from transit is a crime.
Please note, though, that a 3 track Javits terminal could still be operated like a 2 track, except that departure procedures could be more efficient. This could potentially increase the tph rate through the 2 track part - so long as that new rate doesn't exceeecd track and signal capacity.
If you find out more post it here.
Wherever you have a two-track terminal with bumper blocks, it really constrains headways, because trains have to pull in slowly, and even in rush hour it takes several minutes to turn the trains around. The reason for a 3-track terminal is simply to increase the number of tph.
(Another way to do it would be to extend the tail tracks a couple of trainlengths beyond the terminal station, so that trains can pull in at full speed, but with the Javits Center beng so far west you really can't do that.)
"Wherever you have a two-track terminal with bumper blocks, it really constrains headways, because trains have to pull in slowly, and even in rush hour it takes several minutes to turn the trains around."
I guess the "bumper car" game doesn't play well on the subway. Maybe if they put springs into the bumper block the trains could come in fast, compress the springs, and then get shot out of the station at high speed something like what happens to a ball on a pinball machine.
:0)
Whoa. Is this RonInBayside talking? I like that idea, it could be done if:
1. The tension in the spring was held; locked until release.
2. Use of new cars with commuter-type seating.
3. All passengers strap in...no release until ALL seats locked.
There are other ideas....ever see FUTURAMA? Those clear tubes filled with passengers shooting all over the city....or how about ballistic pod vehicles launched from Javits on controlled trajectories to various outer borough "catcher" terminals....that would make for an interesting sky show to say the least.
Can you explain how a 3-track terminal allows an increase in tph? Each train spends the same amount of time crossing the switches. I can see that it allows more time for cleaning the trains, and allows more flexibility in case a train gets taken out of service or is seriously delayed, but I don't see how it can consistently increase tph.
(Another way to do it would be to extend the tail tracks a couple of trainlengths beyond the terminal station, so that trains can pull in at full speed, but with the Javits Center beng so far west you really can't do that.)
Do you have anything that says the terminal of the 7 will be heading west (on 34th) rather than heading south on 11th Ave.? And even so, if the final station is on 34th St with 280' of length on either side of 11th Ave, that still leaves the west end of the station over 750' from 12th Ave, which is plenty of room for tail tracks.
With three tracks, you can have trains load and pull out faster. Train on track 1 just unloaded it's passengers, and is all ready to load passengers new passengers;
Train on track 2 pulls in and passengers are unloading, all this is while:
The train on track 3 that has been sitting there all along, just closed it's doors and is leaving the terminal;
Then the whole process is repeated. It gives you a few minutes extra time to play with, than if you only have two tracks.
I suspect a Javits terminal for the 7 would have far lower traffic than even TSQ on the 7, which seems to be handling 30 tph quite nicely.
Very true, the 7 does handle it quite well at Times Square. As for the "future" terminal of the 7, isn't it actually supposed to terminate at or near Penn Station, which would probably be a busier terminal than Javits would be?
The greatest thing of this would be a direct connection between GC and Penn, which would kind of connect NJ Transit, Metro-North, LIRR, Amtrak all together through one subway ride, as opposed to the switching now required.
To serve Javits and terminate at Penn, it would have to go west, then south on 11th, then back to 34th and 8th.
I'm guessing that average traffic at the Javits station would be well below TSQ, but at certain times (special events) it would be very high.
There is the obvious other way of turning trains around without this problem: the loop. It would actually be quite a neat idea for Javits - have the tracks head West on 41st St, with a station at 9th Avenue, then loop on 41st St, 11th Av, 38th St (or whatever, with a station for Javits Center), 10th Av. That would be a nice big fast loop with no capacity problem!
What would be the point? Look at IND in CBD.
Arti
Here's a related question, what do you mean?
Arti
Arti
Arti
What is the TPH for the IND lines along the CBD. Let's take the A line for example. Is that clearer? I'm asking this since you said in a post earlier:
What would be the point? Look at IND in CBD.
This was your reply to my post, here: What I mean, is that will they built a couple of stations that are local where express stations will bypass them?
I want to see stats for the IND lines along the CBD that justify your statement. Is that clear enough?
Arti
Arti
Irrelevant, because the point of the #7 extension is to bring subway service to the Javits Center and Far West Midtown. An ancillary benefit is to create a one-seat ride between Penn Station and GCT. The tph of the 8th Avenue line is not particularly relevant, because that's a north-south line that doesn't reach the intended service area for the 7 extension.
Is that really in the plans? It sounds extremely expensive. Two possibilities, I guess:
1. Split off the 7 east of the current platform, run down 7th Ave underneath the 1/2/3, and turn west on 34th, allowing a station on 34th between 7th and 8th.
2. Continue past the current terminal, turn down 8th Ave underneath the A/C/E and turn west on 34th. In that case any 34th St/8th Ave station is going to be quite a distance from the core of Penn station.
Both of these solutions would be way more expensive than continuing west on 41st St and turning south on 11th Ave. The latter solution would also bring more of the far west side close to the subway, by having 2 stations well west of 8th Ave, namely at approx 10th and 41st and 11th and 34th.
almost. they'll use the NY Central cut.
"namely at approx 10th and 41st and 11th and 34th"
probably one in the high 30s for Javits and the "3rd CBD"; another in low 30s for the Olympic Stadium. no station for NYP, which will cause real low ridership day 1. whole thing is a huge "trust us"
whole thing is a huge "trust us"
You clearly don't understand the relationship between subway construction and real estate development.
It is you who doesn't understand. 8th Avenue has had a 4-track line for decades. Why isn't it full of high rises? It's a half-block from existing towers, not a half-mile. A subway line isn't enough to create a CBD.
Hey, if that's what it takes, it's OK with me.
But if he can get the WTC project out of the ground as other improvements done. I can't complain
I voted for Galasano.
I will check out the speech
I celebrate your voting (regardless of whom you liked). Too many people don't bother going to vote.
It had the World Trade Center - 50,000 people working in the two towers alone. And the E train and Chamnbers Street station were right there. It's that four track subway that helped make that possible.
Would you like some help getting the other foot in your mouth? Just open a little wider...:0)
A lot of smugness for being so clueless.
There are plenty of facts to support both sides of the argument about whether subways stimulate devleopment all on their own, or if other factors are necessary.
But Simon is certainly right about 8th Ave. Despite recent construction, 8th Ave in midtown still has less office space than any of the other avenues with a subway, and several that don't have a subway, namely 5th, Madison, much of Park, and 3rd.
I won't claim to be an expert on why this is the case, though I assume it has to do with the historical low esteem in which the neighborhood has been held. But Simon is 100% right about the underlying fact.
Source: NY Times Real estate section article with map of office space in Manhattan.
Speaking to prior to 2001, the WTC represented a huge amount of office space. So much so, that it stood empty for 10 years. I marvelled at it as an engineering feat, but others correctly pointed out that the market took a while to develop.
The presence of the 8th Av subway was an important element in its development. Not the only element; PATH also brought people right into the complex.
But the closer you are to WTC (pre the 9/11 tragedy) on 8th Av, the less there is any pressure for office development. WTC had something to do with that. Now it's gone and the epicenter shifted over to Midtown (but the Governor wants the first new WTC tower up by 2006).
Now, it's true that in the 30's and 40's its the neighborhood at play (but consider this: take the four track subway away and watch what happens!). But the context in which Simon presents this is inappropriate. Simon changed the subject, really, not me.
Simon, however, made an inappropriate reference to this, because the 7 extension is going into relatively Virgin territory. This makes Roosevelt Island, Jamaica or Bethesda (WMATA) more appropriate.
But your comments are indeed valid, and you used a reliable source.
I'll concede the point on the 30s, but overall Simon still doesn't know what he's talking about.
More ignorance masked in arrogance. Dowtown existed BEFORE the 8th Avenue line was built. When it came on line, it helped support a CBD that had existed for centuries.
Simply building a subway line does not guarantee the creation of a another central business district. To suggest it will is irresponsible.
I humbly beg from you more lessons in how to do that better. It is truly awersome to learn at the table of the master ignoramus...
Consider downtown Jamaica. People hoped that the Archer Avenue subway, a more convenient replacement for the creaky old Jamaica Avenue el, would be the catalyst for major commercial development. Needless to say, it didn't happen; there was little significant construction for almost a decade after Archer Avenue opened, and all of the buildings that have gone up in the past few years are either government-owned or fully subsidized. Ron in Kansas City, er, Bayside, seems to think that downtown Jamaica is the Next New Thing when it comes to office construction, yet hardly anyone shares his vision.
The projects are not any more subsidized than projects elsewhere in New York City. One Jamaica Center, the flower market, and other investments have been major boosts to the area; a 350,000 square foot conference building has been launched. It's not Rockefeller Center , but for Jamaica, it's very significant. The WTC was heavily subsidized, but by the late 1990's was doing well, with a mix of commercial and govt. clients and a 3% vacancy rate. It took 20 years to get there.
Additionally, the combination of a return of subway service, public and private investments have returned pedestrians to the shopping area. Crime is down significantly in that area, and I have walked around there many a time. This would not have been possible 15 years ago.
"Ron in Kansas City, er, Bayside, seems to think that downtown Jamaica is the Next New Thing when it comes to office construction, yet hardly anyone shares his vision"
Peter Rosa is unfamiliar with the area, having never set foot in it himself. He doesn't know who might or might not share my vision - or more correctly, who has observed the improvement in that business district. He doesn't know what's in One Jamaica Center, has never been in it, never shopped there. I have been there, both before and after. It is a stunning success and proof that a neighborhood can be rehabilitated. It is not an upper-class area; but that's not what's relevant.
In other words, he speaks of something he doesn't know at all. But this is Subtalk, so that's OK.
Peter Rosa is unfamiliar with the area, having never set foot in it himself. He doesn't know who might or might not share my vision - or more correctly, who has observed the improvement in that business district. He doesn't know what's in One Jamaica Center, has never been in it, never shopped there. I have been there, both before and after. It is a stunning success and proof that a neighborhood can be rehabilitated. It is not an upper-class area; but that's not what's relevant.
In other words, he speaks of something he doesn't know at all. But this is Subtalk, so that's OK.
I have been in downtown Jamaica a number of times. Sure, the area seems to have gotten better over the past few years, and I'm glad for that. What the area has NOT seen, however, is private-sector commercial development, at least not ones that aren't subsidized to the hilt. Downtown Jamaica seems to be turning into an area featuring various government offices with a decent amount of retail. That's fine. But it shows no signs of becoming a major office center a la Jersey City or even downtown Brooklyn.
And for now that's OK. Without the subway even that retail activity would not have happened (it was dying amid removal of subway and replacement with drug dealers and rampant thievery), nor would the federal govt. have been persuaded to move offices there. And never mind the conference facility (that's getting off the ground because of AirTrain, and because AirTrain actually has somewhere to go (the new Jamaica Station).
Actually, downtown Brooklyn is not a good example for Peter to use because even there you have a lot of municipal and state offices (govt. activity). But that spurred the private activity, and without subway service, hey, forget it.
And as I pointed out before, the World Trade Center of 1975 was the ultimate in govt. funding. So what?
it's airtrain that is spuring developement in Jamaica.
"Actually, downtown Brooklyn is not a good example for Peter to use because even there you have a lot of municipal and state offices (govt. activity). But that spurred the private activity, and without subway service, hey, forget it"
Downtown brooklyn is brooklyns govenment center. Always has been
Both Downtown brooklyns metrotech developement and Jersy cities recent development is highly subsidies.
The problem in NYC is that the cost structure created by the Union is unsubstainable.
Are taxes are high due to overpriced maniciple labor(if you count the 5 weeks vacation, 11 days sick leave a year, no cost full coverage of medical, dental, vision, plus generouse pension plan ads $10 k a year vs the average privae sector job)
Plus highly overpaid union construction workers, it is nearly impossible to build any new office space and attract businesses here without incentives. Busineses have kept only there most essential operations in the city.
Media companies stay because they can only get the best tallent in NY - Star magazine announced yeaterday that it is moving back from florida because it can't attract good editorial talent down there
Finacial compnaies keep there front offices here to attract the best talent but move there backoffices where middle class and working class workers work out of state because of the cost structure
Most package goods firms + att move out of the city except for marketing and advertising staff taking very good jobs with them reducing our tax base and ability to provide services to out residents
There you go again with the old union bashing. The prosperity of the ‘50s was based on well paying union jobs, and a well paid labor force pumps up the economy by providing more money for consumption. If anything, there are more problems, both social and economic when the rich get richer and working class gets a smaller piece of the pie. Jobs flee not because union wages are too high, but because the employers have found some place where workers have a lower standard of living, and the employers will exploit those workers until even cheaper workers can be found.
>>> Plus highly overpaid union construction workers, it is nearly impossible to build any new office space and attract businesses here without incentives <<<
Some of NYC's problems can be traced to negative economies of scale, and some can be traced to outright corruption and political favoritism back to the days of Boss Tweed and the Tammany gang. The construction industry, along with trash hauling has been mobbed up for quite some time. Construction workers, although well paid for a dangerous and difficult job, are not the ones getting rich.
Tom
1. The twin towers of the WTC were closer to the following subways than they were to the E Hudson Terminal/WTC station: PATH, 1/9, N/R.
2. They were also closer to the 4/5 than to the A/C Chambers St or Fulton St stations.
3. For much of the time between the original building of the IND and the time that the WTC was being planned (1960), the 6th Ave line also went to Hudson Terminal.
So I think it's something of an exaggeration to say that the 8th Ave subway had any particularly close connection to the WTC.
Also, of course, please note that Simon was talking about 8th Ave, not the 8th Ave subway. 8th Ave never gets closer than 1.75 miles from the WTC.
Yes, but that's really a tangent (relevant, but not directly related to the issue at hand).
The issue is really that the WTC, as huge as it was, created in 1975 a vast amount of office space (wasn't it the biggest office complex in the world by square feet at the time?) And its effect was more relevant to lower West Side development than to the East Side.
"So I think it's something of an exaggeration to say that the 8th Ave subway had any particularly close connection to the WTC."
No, it's not an exaggeration. It, and the 7th Av lines, did have a lot to do with it. The Sixth Av lines ceased to, so those really aren't in this picture (post 1975).
The cornerstone of bloombergs plan(besides the stadium) is neighborhoos improvements to make it attractive to both residential and office building developement.
Although 8th Ave has a subway. There was more anti-devlelopement forces such neighborhood conditions, existing manufacturing, low income SRO's that hindered development.
The Developent for the 7 line extention is going to have major city hall backing although the ussual cast of anti-change crowed will try to put wrench in any plans.
Bloomberg also plans to spruce up LIC to make it more attractive. The current shaddyness has scared away develpepers
I hope he does. Citicorp showed what was possible to do there. But they still have a ways to go.
Isn't Gantry State Park there? Gotta preserve green space, you know...
Doctoff recognises the fact that you need to create an envirnment that people want to work in as most office buildings go up only if there is an anchor tenant. Doctoff met with business and found out what turned them off about a particular location. Subsidies are not enough. If guliani would have made an effort to spur developement in the boroughs some of the development in Jersey city, hoboken and weehawking would have ended up in LIC or downtown brooklyn.
Although Metrotech opened while Pataki and Guiliani were in office, the developemnt plans date back to Koch and Cuomo.
As for the 7 extension, the advantage of going west of Ninth Ave. between 41st and 34th streets is that the Port Authority pretty much cleared out the area a half century ago with the construction of the Lincoln Tunnel and its various acesse roads running between 30th and 42nd St. That essentially walled off the area from 10th Ave. to the Hudson from the rest of midtown (the area east of the Queens Midtown's access streets between 34th and 39th have more development, but thanks to it and the Con-ed plant on First Ave. it was one of the last sections on the east side to be filled in over the past 20 years).
Extending the 7 over to 11th Ave. will not attract nearly the NIMBY crowd a subway project in other areas of Manhattan would because of its general detatchment from the rest of midtown.
That is good to hear. Also wasn't 6th ave developement effected by the rockerfell center developement and the slum clearance that was associat4ed with that project. I remeber reading somewhere that they basically condemed the entire neighborhood.
Newsday, dead tree version.
NYC Planning plan shown at Javits dog-and-pony, not online.
In fact, if *NJ* levied a commuter tax on New Yorkers, that would affect 7 of my small group of 11 co workers in my Jersey City office. It's NY residents 7, NJ residents 4. Might be an insignificant example in the grand scheme of things, I don't know, but it shows that jobs do flow both ways...
I don't care anyway since there's a "tax paid to other jurisdictions" credit in NJ and I'm sure NY has the same. So in the end it's all moot.
p.s. when the next "incident" occurs and all you "islanders" want to flee for the mainland, do you think NJ will turn you away? :-)
As anyone on this board knows, New York City is ripped off in 1,000 ways, and I'm very cranky about it. But the lack of a commuter tax isn't one of them. Those who say that the businesses commuters work at and patronize pay far more in taxes than their customers and employees require in services are essentially right. That's why suburban jurisdictions try to zone in businesses while zoning out residences for all but the most affluent.
(In fact, if *NJ* levied a commuter tax on New Yorkers, that would affect 7 of my small group of 11 co workers in my Jersey City office. It's NY residents 7, NJ residents 4. Might be an insignificant example in the grand scheme of things, I don't know, but it shows that jobs do flow both ways...)
There's the real ripoff. The suburbs get the business taxes. The city pays to educate the kids (or at least provide child care), and if the employee is laid off and falls into poverty, pays for 25 percent of welfare and Medicaid through local taxes and lower spending on other things.
That's why suburbs throughout the nation are interested in cities paying for transit options for their low wage workers to commute out to take suburban jobs. They are sent home at the end of the day, like those in Soweto, and their kids don't show up in the suburban schools.
NJ does levy a commuter tax on New Yorkers. Most jurisdictions, including NJ, levey the same income tax on non-residents and residents alike. It's only NYC that levies a lesser (i.e., 0) income tax on non-residents.
Back in the distant past, NJ levied a HIGHER tax on non-residents than residents. That was declared unconstitutional, and is not under consideration in NYC.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_042303_mtafinances.html
By ELIZABETH LeSURE
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - The nation's largest transit agency
concealed more than half a billion dollars from the public while
it was arguing for a fare increase, the state comptroller charged
in an audit Wednesday.
The audit found that the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority kept two sets of books - one public and another for
internal use, Comptroller Alan Hevesi said.
Hevesi subpoenaed the MTA's internal books and said he
found that the agency had moved $512.5 million from its 2002
accounts onto the books for 2003 and 2004. As a result, a
potential 2002 surplus of $537 million shrank to $24.6 million,
the audit says. Similar accounting moves turned a 2003 surplus of
$83 million into a $236 million deficit, Hevesi said.
The MTA had repeatedly said it faced massive deficits while
it was arguing for the fare hike, which was approved in March.
The approved increase raises one-way bus and subway rides
by 50 cents to $2 starting May 4. It also includes proportional
increases for commuter rail line fares and tolls at bridges and
tunnels.
Hevesi said his office is now drafting legislation to give
him an effective veto over fare and toll hikes by empowering him
to verify the accuracy of MTA budgets and financial plans before
any vote on an increase. The MTA's members are appointed by the
governor.
MTA spokesman Tom Kelly did not return calls seeking
comment, but said in published reports that the agency's books
had been checked by two accounting firms. MTA chairman Peter
Kalikow and executive director Katherine Lapp called an afternoon
press conference to respond to the charges.
The agency acknowledged this week that it needs to be more
forthcoming about its finances. Lapp told a state Assembly
hearing, "The MTA must overcome the perception that we are hiding
our books."
A separate, city audit of NYC Transit, which runs city bus
and subway service under the MTA, also found concealment of funds
and overstatement of expenses in the hundreds of millions of
dollars, city Comptroller William C. Thompson Jr. said Wednesday.
Thompson asked the MTA to reevaluate its fare increase in
light of the audit, he said.
The audits come after weeks of allegations that the
nation's largest transit system mismanages its finances. Critics
have accused the agency of excessive secrecy and questioned why
its deficit estimates have varied from less than $1 billion to
$2.8 billion. The agency also used deficit claims to argue
against salary hikes for transit workers last year.
I bet this is just a scratch of the surface. And to think people gave the rank & file sh*t for threatening a strike and asking that the MTA open their books... Maybe they shouldn't have asked that they open their books, but to show us what the real books look like...
to think that our taxes are paying their hoodlumns is pretty digusting.
Thanks
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
The Slant R40's were on the E and F lines first, then went all over the place, in particular the A line in the late 70's and early 80's, then the B line before and after the 1988 GOH program, then the L line and now on the Q line, with some on the N line too.
The R38's AFAIK were on the old AA line in their early days then some went to CI on the B line, but I don't know what line exclusively when they first appeared in 1966.
No R42 on the "EE" or "GG", they used R40M there.
wayne
R42's were scattered everywhere
R68's began on the yellow D in 10/86, Q in 1/87, N in 5/87.
Not exactly. Officially, the first train of R68s appeared on the "D" (for a 30 day revenue service run) one week before the first Manny B closure in 1986. In other words, the R68s first appeared on the Orange "D".
Dwayne:
R-38's First Day August 23,1966 on both the E and F.
R-40 Slants: March 23, 1968 on the F.
R-40M : March 6, 1969 on the F.
R-42: May 9, 1969 on the N in a mixed train with R-32's and R-40M's
R-68: April 13, 1986 on the D.
Larry, RedbirdR33
BTW did you all know the Beatles appeared at The Toilet Bowl (oops, Shea Stadium) on August 23, 1966? Six days later they would give their last concert in San Francisco.
AFAIK the R-38s were supposed to be initially assigned to the D, but when R-1/9s at Jamaica Yard began dropping like flies that summer, the R-38s were pressed into service on the E and F lines. They would remain there until the slants began to appear.
Curiously, the only time I ever saw any R-38s on the E back then was during rush hour.
Steve: You quite correct about R-38's then on the property being placed in service ahead of time. It was the summer of the Great IND Equiptment Meltdown at Jamaica Yard. There were 20 R-38's available and they were pressed into service. 32 R-16's were sent over to the GG and lo and behold the Mighty Standards were pulled from teh scrapline and returned to service.
I rode the R-38's the very next day that they were in service.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes, that was a classic example of the Ripple Effect on the subway system.
Were the equipment at Jamaica Yard at that time R1s and R4s or R6s?
I heard somewhere about the switching of the R1/9s between Concourse-207th St and Jamaica. Was it because of this meltdown?
Also, before the R7, R7A and R9 went to the Eastern Division, what yard were they operating out of?
Thank you.
I believe the oldest Jamaica cars (those would be the R1 and R4) were causing trouble in 1966 (based on what I've heard)
wayne
wayne
I think the first time I rode an R-42 it was in a mixed consist (w/ R-32s) on the D. Sometime in the summer of 1969.
You're quite welcome. If I can be of any further help please contact me.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I think the only time the R-38s appeared on the E was during rush hour.
R38-RR but I am not sure about other lines
R40-E,F
R40M-D,N
R42-D,F,GG?,N
R68-B,D,N,Q
R68A-D,Q
Wayne-MrSlant40, SteveB-8AveExp., FYBkyn1959, Larry,RedbirdR33, Ebwaytony1, edwards--their handles I can access for mail, but Steve Hoskins, Chris R27-R30, Flatbush41, Far Rockaway A train have the option of emailing me with their email address or posting it as a repsonse to this message.
Wayne-MrSlant40, SteveB-8AveExp., FYBkyn1959, Larry,RedbirdR33, Ebwaytony1, edwards--their handles I can access for mail, but Steve Hoskins, Chris R27-R30, Flatbush41, Far Rockaway A train have the option of emailing me with their email address or posting it as a repsonse to this message.
Of course, Manhattan is the bets in terms of coverage. I'd have to say the worst is Queens. It has the least amount of area covered by subways.
So each borough has the "best" of something. But I still think the two best routes in the subway were the A to Far Rock and the D as it was in the '70s: Coney to 205th all on one train!
One woman complained about how hard it is to fold up the stroller and carry the baby in the process while up and down escalators. Then she mentioned the walkway (the new people movers at 23rd-Ely and Court Square stations) and they are for RICH people only.
A male Orthodox Jew complained abouth the timing of this hearing, on the eve of the last 2 days observed of Passover, and the S/A at Marcy Avenue station. He tried to complain to Customer Service and wrote a complaint letter to 370 Jay St, but when he traced his "correspondence", it disappeared along with 49 other letters.
Mr. Reuter made a statement that "we never cut any service since Metrocard." But I can attest the fact that a couple of years ago, J/Z PM rush service was cut 15 minutes from the start time of 4:40 (leaving Broad St), to 4:55 PM, in the current schedules. Also in an issue for Bustalk, 30% of all NYCT bus routes will undergo some "SERVICE ADJUSTMENTS" next month, including a reduction of weekday and/or weekend bus service.
Another speaker complained about why an A train sits out (apparently outside Canal St on the S/B track) of the station and the discussion "Block Signals" was raised. He stated that the entire system will be CBTC ready in 2030, "he hopes.".
After this they should Rename MTA to “Empty-A” LOL.
Also Money Thrown Away and More Trouble Ahead !
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the compliment, but maybe not so. There may be some validity to them.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway was known as the "Money sunk and lost". It opened an extension to London and renamed itself the Great Central, which soon became "Gone completely".
PS CC local N_slant_40 asked you to email him at fieldbahn@yahoo.com. and also a thank you from him.
best wishes R32
THE IRT, BMT, AND IND. THE 3 COMPANIES THAT MADE THE NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM WHAT IT IS TODAY!
I didn't see anything in Kool-D's post to justify anything you said - but maybe you attended the hearing and heard lots of other things that he didn't post - I dobn't know.
I've been to hearings where a person's comment to the MTA Board about a new subway service plan is "I'm going to come back here and beat your ass."
How do you think Larry Reuter should reply to such a person?
It's a typical response from the everyday Joe the straphanger, I would say that too, but it's also important to have the facts first before venting your frustration out. I have a LOT OF EVIDENCE on that score.
So what are you going to do about it?
I can't change management, but it would be fun to embarass them in front of hundreds of people.
Thanks for going.
The woman's complaint about the moving walkway is silly - but if it made her feel good to vent, hey, good for her.
Did she explain how is this ? Are there personnel checking W-2 or paycheck stubs before entering ? I'm just dying to know !
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyone still interested in joing me ?
Yes, I start at Main Street about 3:45, go to Times Square to catch an Express about 4:30, then come back to Times Square where I head for Brooklyn and a M-7 to get home.
Ill come if I can make it
At Times Square be at the head end, we railfans stand out in a crowd for some reason :-)
I'll have on my Subway Series hat.
For those who don't know Thurston, he's TALL.
Fri: Redbird trip on the 7 followed by an M7
Sat: Members Day at BERA
Sun: Peggy's Tour
All for the price of a fun pass...
That would be three unless yours has a photo on it < grin >
But I looked all over and couldn't find the MetroCard slot.
Maybe when the TA goes to Smart Cards we'll get one. But then we would also have to update our fleet ... rignt now the most recent is 1955.
Ohhhh Stef would love that !
This train operator will be there in spirit with his gal:)
-Stef
Friday: Main Street at 3:45
or Times Square at 4:30 (first Express)
or Main Street at 5:15
then at 6:00 head for Brooklyn & a M-7, either Long Beach or Rockaway and a CHANGE AT JAMAICA. I'll be continuing on, most of you will catch a return trip to Penn Station or Atlantic Ave. OR J/Z (not a bad idea either !)
all times aprox.
At Times Sq. we left a few minutes late waiting for a Red Bird vs. R-62 Express. We started out as a local because of a stalled train on the Westbound side, but at Junction we got the center track & enjoyed the fly over at Wilets Point. At Main Street again we took the next train out just one stop & spent some time on the walkway between #7 & LIRR at Wilets Point. Some of the group like buses so they were on the north side of the board walk while others were on the south side :-)
We re-enter the #7 & took a Red Bird to Woodside to see the LIRR action, the artistic gates & other features of this re-modeled station. By this time the "problem" was almost cleared up.
At Times Square we caught a R-142 to Atlantic Ave. By this time it was after 7 PM and there was only one train in the LIRR station when we arrived. I went over to the Dispatcher to announced our arrivial & asked that he provide us our M-7 set .... NOT. Seriously, I asked when M-7 was scheduled to arrive, it was the next train in ! Several in our group of six hung out in the train for a few minutes, three of us rode it out. I "Changed at Jamaica" for my train home.
It was a enjoyable way to spend a Friday night.
Gee you should have brought her along to meet some of your friends. Bet she's wondering what they look like < grin >
:-) Andrew
I wonder if they're gonna keep them in CIY or Concourse Yard.
http://www.mta.info/mta/communications/releases03/030423.htm
The essence of the reply is this. Late last year, the MTA did a one-time financing deal that realized $600 million. Hevasi thinks that the MTA should have spent the $600 million on this year's operating expenses, thereby delaying a fare increase. Hevasi concedes that, once this was done, a fare increase would have been unavoidable in 2004.
The MTA decided, instead, to spend the $600 million over two years, coupled with a fare increase now, rather than waiting till next year, when the fare increase would have had to be twice as large. What Hevasi calls "two sets of books" is really two options for dealing with the same $600 million.
Undoubtedly the MTA did consider the option of burning through the $600 million more quickly, which would have deferred the fare increase, but would have made the increase steeper when it finally happened. Given that all parties agree that the $600 million inflow was a one-time event, the MTA's decision to spread it over two years is certainly a defensible one. No fare increase is ever popular. Getting approval for a much larger increase later would have been even more painful.
The press release also reminds us that, thanks to MetroCard discounts, the average fare is still lower than it was in 1995. I don't know of many things in New York that cost less than they did eight years ago, so I think the MTA is justified in blowing their horn about this.
But I'd say that the system is still recovering from a long period of underinvestment, a result of the Robert Moses era and then the 1970s fiscal crisis. It has come a long way in the last 20 years.
When you say they're "TOTALLY incapable of running the world's largest public transportation system in a correct manner" ... well, you should look up the NYT piece Randy Kennedy did a few months ago on the London Underground, one of the few systems complex enough to bear a reasonable comparison to ours. The NYC subway system, all in all, came out looking pretty good.
MTA can certainly improve, and you point out some important issues. But until you sit in the Captain's chair (or even the lieutenant's chair), and find out what that's really all about, is it really fair to totally paste them with the "incompetent" brush? Any more than a manager saying that rank and file are all just a bunch of morons (that would be wrong, of course, and it does happen).
When the Sept 11 tragedy happened, both management and workers worked together to help evacuate people, to save lives, and limit the spread of the damage. People at every level, president to car cleaner, did something valuable, something to be proud of.
When the TA rebuilt the IRT subway under Greenwich St, the contractors and the TA worked together to accomplish what was close to a miracle.
So it's not all bad. But it needs to get better.
But I am talking about simple little things that do not require a NY State P.E. license, such as why I saw at Atlantic Ave/IRT, a sign saying #2 to New Lots and #3 to Flatbush Ave. This give me the impression that NYCT is not capable of any oversight.
If I was President, I will go out on the field and hold Managers and Supervivsors accountable as they will explain to me in writing as to why this was installed wrong, why aren't G.O. information given to all affected employees, why is the S/A badge missing or not displayed properly, etc. The City of New York holds itself accountable for every correspondence it receives from the general public and takes corrective action.
That would be a breath of fresh air. Managers would take there job more seriously. I don't blame the line worker who may be installing the bad sign. If his manager does not care, then he is going to take heat for mentioning the problem and the sign still won't get fixed
I'm not convinced that the Greenwich St rebuild was such a miracle of cooperation. Certainly it could have been botched and wasn't, for which we are all grateful.
But consider:
- No interaction with any existing subway lines, since the north end of the tunnel by Chambers St was totally intact.
- No need to keep traffic running on the streets above.
- No sewer lines or utility conduit in the way at all.
- The contract was on a cost plus fixed fee basis rather than fixed price. This would have been unacceptable if it hadn't been an emergency.
- The contractor was coming off another job in the same location and already had all the heavy equipment in place.
Even with all this, it took 6 months (March to Sep, 2002) once the right of way was totally uncovered and all debris removed.
Am I compaining? No!
Do I think it was a miracle of cooperation and good intentions? Not quite. I think it was just a reasonable level of competence.
Whoa, Nellie. Your gripes have nothing to do with "running the world's largest public transportation system in a correct manner"; they deal with informing the public about that system.
All things considered, the operational part tends to go relatively decently. OTOH, the informational part often has more glitches than one would like.
No that the riders are back, they need to start running more effecient service. Roll out Inteligent OPTO as in intermediate solution. The costs will be recoved in less then a year per line roll out.
Continue with there plans to closs token booths, roll out subscription metrocards.
Did some railfaning today on the 6. For all those who are anti-booth closings take a ride over to bleaker street on the downtown 6. There is a Heet only entrance directly across from booth n519a. I monitored the area for 30 min. As each train arived and left, just as many people choose to exit through the heet only exit as the staffed exit. Those who exited through the staffed exit used the heets just as often as the turnstyle. In the 30 min period 3 customers bought fares in n519a fare control. ALL VIA MVM.
A few stops south on the 6 at canal. Two HEET only entrances exits. One was interesting because it was ADA complient elevator and all, no booth just a autogate.
When was canal 6 line renovated. A few years back, It is funny that there has not been a huge jump in crime of lawsuits over ADA access. Why? IT IS NOT BIG DEAL
HOLY S__T! That whole $600 million was assumed as part of the 2000 to 2004 MTA Capital Plan! Remember -- refinancing debt was a big part of the money expected to fund it, in place of state taxes, which were not included.
Well that sums up what's in store for the future of this city and its transit system. Pataki RE-borrows billions, stretching out payments far into the future, to fund just FOUR YEARS worth of capital improvements, which include designing the Second Avenue Subway but not building it. If you look back, you realize I was nuts about this decision at the time.
THEN he decides to use the money instead to fund TWO years of OPERATING costs. So do the Democrats criticize him for screwing the future? NOOOOOOO. The criticize him for NOT blowing it in ONE year rather than two!
Hope no one is expecting to ride that Second Avenue Subway anytime soon. The Beame Shuffle Lives!
Hope no one is expecting to ride that Second Avenue Subway anytime soon. The Beame Shuffle Lives!
So, why waste money designing a system that will not be built? Why wine and dine the Alabama State Employees Fund by adding the more expensive Water St option, for something that will not be built?
I realize planners have got to plan things to earn a living. However, don't they have any shame when they are being paid for plans that will be discarded? :-)
A more accurate number would be total rides x average fare per ride of $1.06
The base fare is meaningless because almost no-one pays $1.50 a ride except tourists
Seniors pay between $0.675 - $0.75 a ride
reguale riders pay between $1.35-$1.50
Former two fare zone riders such as myself when transfering to bus to subway pay between $0.675 - $0.75 a ride.
If you want to also include seniors who transfer from bus to train and the cost per ride goes down further
Not to mention those who buy a fun pass and ride 10 times(I used 20 rides yeaterday while railfanning) Which in many cases if they had to pay would not be taking the ride
The end this long story short. It is difficult to audit or recaluclate the fare revenue number without a detailed breakout of rides in each category. Most likely the MTA's computer systmes don't have the info stored in a manner to analyse it in detail and thus there cost per ride may also be a best guestimate
Or, even better, Salma Hayek in "Frida," soon to come out on video and DVD. I've heard that she shows just about all there is to show.
See, and she probably thinks it's perfectly safe to leave you sitting at your computer looking at "train pictures".
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I believe that Salma Hayek is somewhat vertically challenged herself.
Maybe your mistake is looking at the short petite types. You might do better with the Amazonish women. Guess it's too bad Lenda Murray is married.
Either she's married to a girl or the marriage is illegal except in Vermont.
Well....there's always a first time, hmmmm ?
What's up with Salma Hayak, you've given up on the mystical girls of Canal St ?
Bill "Newkirk"
like this Russian cutie...
And there's also Michelle Rodriguez, who was really stunning as a surfer chick in "Blue Crush."
Also, an Egyptian coworker of his was surprised that he knew about the Coptic Church.
J.Lo lives on the west coast, she could care less about subways. As for "el"s as backdrops, it's for that urban feel. So much for Jenny from the block.
"To me, she appeared like she was crying that the Redbirds were disappearing from her very eyes."
I don't think so, she was probably crying about the peanuts she was being paid for the movie !
Bill "Newkirk"
Leno is on the left coast, which speaks for the politics as of late.
Letterman's band leader is bald as a cue ball and I don't wear sunglasses indoors !
Besides, I like SubTalk better than TV.
Bill "Newkirk"
I worked with a guy who grew up on "her block" when she was young and unknown. She was an arrogant primadonna way back then too.
J.Lo's sister Lynda is better looking.
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought she was on Channel 4 .
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh god, you're one of "them". Your daughter probably hates you.
"Blink-blink, blink-blink,
He's on the brink
About to sink
I ask you,
Shall I save him, can he be saved?
No! No, no!
Next stop, 125th Street"
My favorite Last poets piece, which I know by heart, is "Wake Up Niggers". Here's a shorter one which is more on topic :
I was diggin' on The Man.
The Man was diggin' on me.
And if it's the IRT, the BMT, or the IND,
It's all the same to me.
Last Poets, "On the Subway," 1970
Or more likely at the Myrtle (L) station which was confirmed again today for those of us that witness the rat there on the Eastern Division tour. I have yet to use that station without seeing some sort of rodent, whether it be a rat or mice.
Fred would have have seen many of his "Montague Friends" today. I also saw a huge (only in the subway) rat on top of some garbage bags ON the platform (not the track) at 14th/8th.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Are you sure it wasn't a possum? They often look like a rat on steroids.
Tom
Some parts in the city you can get WSOU (89.5) which plays some good rock. I forget what college it is, but you get the occaisonal college babble too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ahh, a conversation about Metallica.
(mandatory transit: Metallica's original recording studio near Jamaica Station burned down a few years back.)
wayne
It still doesn't adequately replace Martin Block's "Make Believe Ballroom."
Tom
WNEW-TV was sold to the News Corporation in 1987 to become part of the new Fox Network. It became WNYW.
NEW stands for Network Ed Wynn.
TV call letters are fun. Too bad the call letters for 2, 4 and 7 are obvious (7 used to be WJZ).
I gotta slow down and start proofreading.
Before posting I thought I had better check the archives. Would you believe that I found 73 posts in late April on this very thread, 72 of which had nothng to do with the subway scenes.
I did enjoy reading them. It was hilarious how quickly the thread went off topic from subway scenes to J Lo, to weight lifting bathing beauties, John's girlfriend problems, radio music, decline of FM stations, and finally, rats in the transit system.
I got my answer in the very first post, but was amazed how quickly the thread went OT.
"Maid In Manhattan" on DVD has joined my wife's collection of "Cinderella" stories ("Working Girl" and "Pretty Woman" are two early ones) and I suspect I will soon know it by heart as background, and be able to access it should my interest in Bronx rapid transit increase. Like Karl B, I'm a Brooklyn boy, and don't know much about, nor do I have much interest in, "Da Bronx", except for that pronoun, "yiz", or "yuz".
The LIRR tracks will dive below the existing Metro-North Park Av line and continue to GCT, where LIRR will have a new terminal and concourse. Metro-North and LIRR traffic will not mix. Each will stay on its own set of tracks.
It's too late now. But so far, no apoclypse as of yet. Just satisfied commuters.
:)
This way today we would have had Pennsylvania Airlines: The Standard Airline of the World.
They'd still run the rail business, and there'd be better interchanging between rail and air.
They did, but the DoJ cited anti-trust laws and forced them to divest. The PRR once owned one of the nations larger trucking firms and would co-ordinate intermodal service (carload to local truck hubs). The culmination of this were their poineering "Truk Trains" of the 1950's (TT-1 and TT-2).
They also were part of a multi-railroad consortium that worked with one of the early airlines on a cross-country venture - fly by day, take the train by night. IIRC that flopped, though, rather than being squashed by the government.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two sets of books – one for the public and one for internal use – were used to mask the MTA’s true financial condition and give the impression it faced a severe budget deficit, which was used as justification for a fare hike, State Comptroller Alan Hevesi and City Comptroller Bill Thompson said Wednesday. A $537 million surplus in 2002 was reduced to $24 million by shifting the extra cash to 2003 and 2004, according to subpoenaed internal records.
Hevesi called for legislation to give the state comptroller veto power over transit fare hikes and toll increases.
An MTA spokesperson denied any wrongdoing, saying two independent auditors found no problems with the agency’s accounting methods.
Hevesi and Thompson had publicly urged the MTA to postpone approval of a fare hike until their audits were completed. But in March the MTA raised the basic fare for subway and buses by 50 cents, to $2, along with increases to commuter rail tickets and bridge and tunnel tolls.
“Both of the comptrollers are saying the MTA had hundreds of millions of dollars it did not report to the public,” Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign, a transit advocacy group, said, calling for an independent review of the agency. “I think the MTA is out of control. This is an agency that issued three different projections of its deficit during the fare increase debate. The public does not have confidence in the credibility of the agency.”
The latest allegations come while the MTA is embroiled by countering charges of corruption among top officials. A state Assembly Committee is holding hearings on whether the MTA can properly police itself.
Testifying Tuesday, Louis Anemone said he was suspended as the MTA’s security director three weeks ago as punishment for coming forward with reports of widespread corruption and cover-ups at the agency. The MTA says Anemone and his deputy, Nicholas Casale, were suspended because they obstructed an internal investigation.
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=29610
Didn't you get the fine print? That surplus money was SUPPOSED to fund the CAPITAL program, not one years worth of an operating deficit! The outrage isn't that the money was used for operating costs for two years rather than one. It is that it was used for operating costs AT ALL!
Robert
Not that I believe that the MTA's financial accounting practices are above reproach, but any audit done by Democtatic hacks Hevesi and Thompson must be taken for what they are: political tools.
Don't believe the hype.
As for the MTA's accounting practice they are not above reproach. Heviesi's fiancial audit did mention a fare hike would have had to be implimented anyway. In addtion the MTA's backwards finacial reporting structure is partly based on revenue reported on hand reports from hundreds of token booths is impossible to completly audit top to bottom and come up with concredte eveidece of fraud in two months. Just not possible
The MTA's accoounting practices are the least of the problems that are going on at the MTA. The MTA's outdated technology in both the transit operational area's and there contract management areas is a huge money waster and ripe for possible fraud
Tranisit operation - slow to adopt technology that would save hundreds of million's of dollars a year and improve service. For those who want to see a automated fare control with elevator and autogate check out canal street brooklyn bridge bound 6 train platform. Two automated fare controls. Have not heard of any deaths becasue of it
Contract management - The way contracts are bidded out, tracked and the like is so poorus that fraud and waste easily performed. In addition if the MTA chooses to use contractors to do construction projects the contractors should be buying there supplies from suppliers who have pre-negotiated the price for certain items. This would save millions becasuse the MTA would get volume discounts and would eliminate all the fraud perpertraied by contractors such a phony bills or buying inferior quailty materials, mixing extra sand in cement etc.
As for the two sets of books and the fare hike. The term "two set of books" implies fraud but may just mean two sets of revenue and expense projections which are just that projections(educated guesses) based on historical date, projected increases in labor and fuel exprense and projected increases or decreases in revenue. Based on current conditions these projections change. Good projections tend to come within 10% of acutual expenses and revenues
The fact that part of the surplus was spread out over a few years to close future years budgets is not uncommon or unethical. It is actually standard operating practice for govenment and private industry. These are sometimes called one time tricks because they simply move expenses or money from one year to another but are still on the books. The city unions have preposed some to mayor bloomberg calling them effeciency improvements. When calculating a budget an account(for which I am and have done govenment audits) has the ability to classify items in different ways. For instance a bus purchaces and paid for in full todays is a capitol item that expense on the books is spread over the life of the item in use. For tax reasons this item may be expensed on a differnt schedule hense "two serts of books"
If the fare hike was not done this year, a larger fare hike would have to been instituted next year as the surplus disappeared
Budgets are also based on projected revenue. The MTA projected a 10% reduction in ridership in 2003-2004 vs 2001-2002. Given the fact that NYC lost 300,000 jobs since 911 a reduction in ridership(or paid rides vs rides attributed to fun pass jamboree) is possible. A 10% reduction that is debateable
Yes politics in NY is cut a check get my endorsements.
Ever wonder why all the politicians are lining up behind this. They all receive hansom campaign donations from the TWU. This includes the straphangers campaign.
It's all a money grab
That what make's bloomberg so refreshing. He is not interested in the special interest groups money. He is interested in improving the city for the residents now and in the future
Many of the projects bloomberg is working on won't show fruits until his two terms are up
the 2012 olympics
Downtown brookyn and LIC rezoning and improvements to attract new coorporations
Flushing improvement planning study
West side redevelopemtnt
International recruiptment of new coorporations for new jobs for the city to fill these buildings
Revamping the Board of ed from top to bottom.
The plot thickens....
- - - - -
STATEMENT BY MTA CHAIRMAN PETER S. KALIKOW
The State Comptroller report issued today is a cynical, political document aimed solely at undermining the MTA’s credibility by capitalizing on the public’s natural dislike of a fare increase.
First, The Comptroller’s insinuation that the MTA keeps ‘two sets of books’ is an outrageous proposition that is belied by the facts and the MTA’s independent outside auditors. Just yesterday, the nationally recognized accounting firm of Delloite Touche gave an unqualified certification to the MTA Board of the Authority’s 2002 financial statements. The Comptroller’s allegation that working papers and supporting documentation provided to his office by MTA comprise a separate ‘set of books’ is false.
The MTA’s ‘books’, albeit complex given its $7B in annual expenditures, are certified compliant with Accounting standards and have even won awards for outstanding government accounting. The Comptroller describes the supporting schedules to the MTA Financial Plan as ‘undisclosed’ and ‘secret’. The facts are that the supporting schedules are simply the detailed components of the financial plan, neither inconsistent nor hidden.
Second, the Comptroller’s repeated allegation of ‘hidden funds’ found only by his office is simply a lie. The ‘hidden funds’ relate to the operating budget savings realized by an innovative debt restructuring undertaken by MTA in 2002. This debt restructuring was approved by the state legislature and effected in the open market. More importantly, the reduction in debt service made possible by the restructuring (over $600M) was recognized by the MTA, discussed publicly as early as November of last year, described in City Council testimony early this year, and disclosed in the public documents released in the context of the MTA’s 2003–2004 financial plan. Since these funds were not recurring revenues, they were not treated as part of the MTA’s baseline projections but rather were shown as gap closing measures to be spent over the twenty-four month period of the financial plan. Essentially, the Comptroller is arguing that the MTA should have simply spent the money as soon as it was realized to delay the date of the fare increase. The MTA Board decided that it was more appropriate to spend the money over two years, thereby minimizing the fare increase. Had the Comptroller’s suggestion been adopted, the 2004 fare increase would have been twice as large; a fact he conveniently omits. This is not ‘accounting magic’, it is arithmetic.
The MTA raised the fare because its recurring revenues are less than its recurring expenses. Hardly a surprising fact given the same base fare since 1995. Indeed, even after the fare increase, our regular bus and subway customers will see their commuting expenses increase by only 11%, after seven years of steady fares. Further, the average cost of a trip in 2004 will be NO higher than in 1995, a truly remarkable achievement.
In fact, the Comptroller grudgingly admits these financial realities when he states, “While it may have made sense to raise fares in 2003 to smooth out the budget gaps, there were a number of choices. Metro Card and EZ Pass permit an endless combination of fare and toll increases and discounts”. Exactly. That is why the Board in November set forth three fare/toll increase options for public review and comment over a three month period, held ten public hearings and conducted a several hour long public Board meeting in March to discuss various options. The end result was a fare/toll increase plan that introduced new MetroCard discounts and options.
The Board’s decision reflects a business decision to avoid undue reliance on one-shots pushing off the deficit problem to 2004 when a fare increase of at least 40 to 50% would have been required to balance the 2004 budget. The Board engaged in reasoned long term planning, not short-term planning - something that the Comptroller himself urged the City to utilize during his failed bid for the Mayoralty.
Lastly, the MTA does not quibble with the Comptroller’s right to review MTA’s finances. Indeed Section 1276-a of the Public Authorities Law obligates the Comptroller to audit the MTA annually. This document, an "examination" of MTA finances, is not an audit. Instead it is an unfair attack on the MTA intended solely to grab headlines and pander to the public
Where does the track continue past Wassaic, and other points at the ends of the MNRR line? (besides the AMTRAK routes)
Demographics, money, and politics.
For example, the last stop on the Harlem line has varied over time. Once it went to Millerton (I think), but it didn't get enough patronage as more people drove the Taconic instead. With the increased population of Dutchess County, there was clear demand for re-extending the Harlem Line past Dover Plains. There also had to be money for platforms and improved rail. Probably there was also politics with Dutchess County wanting more benefits for the extra .25% sales tax they pay.
High Bridge used to be the end point for electrification on the NYC main before it was extended to croton. Port Jervis was the a big Erie RR engine/crew change point and rail yard. Hackettstown was in a powerful state rep's district and he had service extended there (Hackettstown is an incremental terminal, service will probably be extended to Washington and possibly Phillipsburg in the future.)
The tracks beyons Wassiac I think went and at one point hooked into the B&A main line after crossing into CT/Mass. The rail lines in that region (the New Haven, Springfield, Albany triangle) have seen severe attirtion.
First off, I've seen the Manhattan Elevated lines referred to both as the Manhattan Elevated and as Manhattan Railway. Apparently the former is more of a vernacular term, and the latter the official name of the company. Does anyone know which term was painted on the cars, i.e. did the company bill itself as Elevated or Railway?
Second, there's a write-up on this site saying that the IRT leased the Manhattan Elevated for 999 years (transferring effective ownership, I would say), but it's not clear exactly what year this lease was initiated. Was this 1908?
I also have a couple of questions pertaining to preserved cars. First off, I've heard that car "G" was originally owned by the New York Elevated Railroad. How did this line relate to Manhattan Railway, and when was it absorbed by the latter company?
Finally, there are two ex-Manhattan Elevated / IRT wood cars at the Western Railway Museum in California. They were sold to the Richmond Shipyard Railway for service during WW2. Does anyone know what year they were sold? (A wild guess would be 1942, but I don't really know.)
Thanks in advance!
Frank Hicks
Larry, RedbirdR33
I also have a couple of questions pertaining to preserved cars. First off, I've heard that car "G" was originally owned by the New York Elevated Railroad. How did this line relate to Manhattan Railway, and when was it absorbed by the latter company?
The Manhattan Railway Company assumed control of both the New York Elevated Railroad and the Metropolitan Elevated Railroad on September 1, 1879. The Manhattan Railway Company itself was actually formed four years earlier on November 10, 1875.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The Manhattan Railway Company was leased to the Interborough Rapid Transit Company for 999 years on April 1, 1903.
Other examples of joint elevated/subway operations existed on todays's #4 line from 167th Street northward (the Lexington Ave. subway and 6th/9th Ave. El), today's #7 line (Flushing subway and 2nd Ave. El), today's Astoria El (IRT Astoria subway* and 2nd Ave. El), and today's #2 line from Gun Hill Road to 241st St. (Lexington Ave. subway and 3rd Ave. El).
*replaced in 1949 with current BMT subway service.
Frank Hicks
Do the R142 and R142A trains display a < 4 > on the runs that skip 138th Street? Ideally, the R62s and R33s would if someone actually wanted to take the time to change all the signs.
Do the R142 and R142A trains display a <4> on the runs that skip 138th Street? Ideally, the R62s and R33s would if someone actually wanted to take the time to change all the signs.
From <4>
to this < 4 >
Perhaps the MTA realizes that they are overusing the "diamonds" and reverting to a circle where necessary?
Also, someone else made a point I hadn't thought of: during rush hours, there isn't enough time to change all the rollsigns.
Diamonds are never used on trains to denote the only rush hour service -- they're used to denote a variant to a basic service that runs at the same time. In the case of the 5, the basic rush hour service is express in the Bronx and to Dyre; only the Nereid trains carry diamonds.
That's why rush hour 4 trains shouldn't carry diamonds. All rush hour 4's bypass 138th (or are supposed to bypass 138th).
in the AM many diamond 5 trains DO go to Flatbush, however in the PM only 2 of them come FROM Flatbush. To even this out they would have to run less <5> service to Flatbush in the AM, or run more <5> service from Flatbush in the PM.
WPR passengers at Flatbush at around 4:00 can take the nearest (2) train, or wait 10 minutes for the first <5> in service(assuming the TA doesn't cut it, or delay it for some reason) for a one seat ride.
Their American web site is http://www.kinkisharyo-usa.com/home.htm
Nothing interesting except their man line work witch is mostly passenger high-speed equipment.
The Japanese site on the other hand has massive amount of info on their subway car page .the page’s URL is http://www.kinkisharyo.co.jp/
N_slant_40 provided the info to me since he knows Japanese.
Hope this helps R32
The body shells were built by Nippon Kinki Sharyo in Japan, shipped here, and they were completed at a pier in San Francisco (i.e. trucks and couplers added, finishing touches, etc.) by General Electric. The cars all have Nippon Kinki Sharyo builder plates in the door/vestibule area.
There were coaches 3800-3851 and cab cars 4000-4020 for a total of 73 cars.
Actually, there was a 74th car built, believe it or not. The original coach 3846 is at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean!! It was being shipped as top-deck cargo when its transporting ship hit some heavy seas, and it managed to fall overboard (along with a steam loco that was being shipped to the New York, Susquehanna & Western Railroad). The replacement car has a 1987 built date versus 1985 and 1986 for the rest of the fleet.
Caltrain did get another order of gallery cars about two or three years ago, and I am not sure if those, also, are Nippon Kinki Sharyo but I do know they were also built in Japan.
Don't know about the Caltrain car, but according to published reports the NYS&W locomotive was in the hold and was lost when the ship sank.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arti
Our Web site (www.SubwayInfo.com) provides Door-To-Door Subway directions. A user, entering a starting and ending address, will receive instructions on which trains to take, and the street directions to and from the train stations. We believe that our site would be a great compliment to the wealth of information and services the MTA already provides to NYC commuters.
If anyone knows who we should contact, please let us know.
Sincerely,
Edward J. Garrity
Garrity Technologies
www.SubwayInfo.com
info@SubwayInfo.com
I disagree 100%. Your claim is very misleading. Your site is "door-to-door" ONLY if the subway station is within walking distance of the origin and/or destination. If there is a bus involved then the system draws blank. In fact it couldn't even find a well know address - 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza. I know this to be a fact because I have tried it a number of times.
As I pointed out in an email to your company, Ed, I hope you are not based in NYC because there are very strict laws against false and misleading adverting. NYers don't take very kindly to things being misrepresented.
I suggest you change your claim to "Station to Station" Subway directions.
I hope the MTA rejects your overture. They mislead people enough w/o your help.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually SubTalk has more post about the MTA's books than the MTA actual books the MTA has.
What are these hefty bonuses of which you speak? Who in the MTA is getting these bonuses, why, and how much?
Tom
#3 West End Jeff
If there was truely a criminal issue, they would be bringing this report to the district atturneys office
I worked at a city agency and have ivestigated such cases. If there is enough info and they are truely cooking hte books the case would have been refered to the DA
The fair comtrolers are playing with samatics
The public associates the work "books" to mean fiancial statements when in fact they are refering to the MTA Projected two year finacial plan for which it put together to help set a budget
The MTA took advantage and refinaced it bond dept at a lower rate thus freeing up $600 million is cash. This money is a one time cash infusion because you have no more bonds to refinace or refinacing bonds who;s interest rate is already low does not make sense. The money if used this year in full would not be in the budget next year because it is not recurring revenue such as fares or tolls.
The end result is a surplus this year and a larger deficit next year. The MTA handles the situation responcibly. If you follow wall street, it is not current earnings that move a stock but the companies future projection of cash flow and earnings
In the MTA's case it made sense to reduce the shock of next years shortfall by spliting the $600 interest saved over 2 years. This is an example of a rainy day fund which allowed NYC to help fill last years budget shortfall. It is also likely that paid ridership will dip due the week economy which claimed 300,000 jobs that take MTA bridges, tunnels, and subways. Plus fewer tourists who pay full fare etc.
This allowed for a small fare hike and less be honest, the average commuter who rides the bus and subways often fare is going up a small amount. This will allow some saving such as the new overnight OPTO shuttles, booth closings and the savings associated with the new rail cars to cushen the blow. We may even see on many full length crews on the L within the next two years as ATO goes into full operation.
The MTA has done a good job with it's money management. It has a way to go on ther operational side
Also remeber that the whole 2 broadway mess was E virgil Conways mess. Kalikow inheritied the problem.
Did Mr. Kalikow" provided any oversight of asked for explainations from Capital Program Managers about justifying each cost of labor before the $150 million project across from Bowling Green station ballooned to $450 million? Of course not, when S**T hits the fans and it is reported in the media to the general public then he, or his Inspector General has to answer the questions.
2)What is maximum acceptable grade in NYC Subway? (i.e. what is the steepest grade existing?)
3)What is the distance of ten Manhattan Streets? (i.e. 114th St-124th St) Feet, meters, yards, km, I don't care, I can convert...
4)How far is Bowery from Essex St?
5)What is the (approximate to nearest 50m) radius of the turn off Delancey onto Centre?
6)Are these levels relatively correct? I hope so. I'd hate to have to do this area all over again...
1 deep = Nassau St Line
2 deep = Chrystie Outer (Willy B-6Av Lcl)
3 deep = Chrystie Inner (Manny B-6Av Exp)
(4 deep = 2 Ave Line)
Now I see why MTA has gone with the Deep Chrystie option. Trying to fit the four 2nd Ave tracks in between all this, across platform from the 6 Ave tracks, has been an endless nightmare...
Rise over a 100 foot run. 1 foot in 100 is %1, etc.
2)What is maximum acceptable grade in NYC Subway? (i.e. what is the steepest grade existing?)
Hmmm, I don't know, but probably around 15%. The steepest mainline grade is 5.32% and the practical limit is like 6-7, but there have been %12 railroad grades in the past. Subway cars have many powered axles which gives better adhesion than a RR train.
What is the distance of ten Manhattan Streets? (i.e. 114th St-124th St) Feet, meters, yards, km, I don't care, I can convert...
Since 20 Manhattan blocks equal one mile (5,280 feet/1600 meters), 10 blocks is a half mile (2,640 ft./800m).
4)How far is Bowery from Essex St?
At Delancey, the Bowery is about 2 1/4 standard east-west avenue blocks from Essex. So the stations are further apart than the gap between the First and Third Ave. stations at 14th Street on the L.
6)Are these levels relatively correct? I hope so. I'd hate to have to do this area all over again...
1 deep = Nassau St Line
2 deep = Chrystie Outer (Willy B-6Av Lcl)
3 deep = Chrystie Inner (Manny B-6Av Exp)
(4 deep = 2 Ave Line)
Nope. At Delancey, it goes like this:
One level down at Chrystie -- Sixth Ave. express tracks (B/D)
Two levels down at Chrystie -- J/M/Z main tracks
Three levels down between Chrystie and Forsyth streets -- Former KK tracks connecting B'way/Layfayette St. station with the Essex St. station on the J/M/Z (It splits off from the F/V tracks two levels below ground at Houston and Chrystie Sts.)
The unused KK tracks going from Essex to B'way-Lafayette come off the J/M/Z tracks as they descend from one level below grounf at Essex towards the Bowery station (two levels below). The KK tracks then rise up slightly to run alongside the uptown track of the Sixth Ave. B/D into the B'way-Lafayette station, which allows it to pass above the F/V tracks going from there to the Second Ave. stop.
That's why a shallow Chrystie option doesn't work -- the tracks are blocked at levels 1 and 2 at Houston St. and at level 3 between Stanton and Delancey. But since the Sixth Ave. express tracks drop down a level between Delancey and Grand, then depending on where the old KK connection enters Sarah Delano Roosevelt Park, the Second Ave. tracks could begin risnig up from four levels down before Delancey St. and share at least the southern end of the platform with the B/D two levels below ground at Grand and Chrystie Sts., with a split platform at the north end (similar to the way the north end of DeKalb divides into two levels to serve the outer track headed to the Manny B and the inner track going to the Montague tunnel).
Oh my God...when I saw the "Nope" I was scared half to death...but it's not that bad. I can simply invert the levels and drop the Nassau Line one level. Good thing I didn't start on Bowery station yet!
...the Second Ave. tracks could begin risnig up from four levels down before Delancey St. and share at least the southern end of the platform with the B/D two levels below ground at Grand and Chrystie Sts., with a split platform at the north end (similar to the way the north end of DeKalb divides into two levels to serve the outer track headed to the Manny B and the inner track going to the Montague tunnel).
That was the plan, for the southbound local track-lower level at north(west) end, upper level at south(east) end. The express tracks already are on the lower level. The uptown local track, however, is a problem-I may have to get rid of the diamond crossover north of the station between the NB lcl and the NB 6 Av track, and replace it with a single switch allowing trains from the bridge to get to the uptown. It may indeed bypass the local trk altogether and merge into the express instead (less cross-traffic @ Houston).
The distance is exaggerated somewhat anyway (about 1 1/2 times what it should be between Grand and Houston or Bway-Laf) because of the physical limitations of the program. For it to really be the way it's supposed to be I'd have to go into 3D Studio Max and manually design the whole station itself (including the track splines, which are technically separate objects) and if I could do that, I'd be working as an architectural engineer for the TA right now. :)
Uptown trains (both local and express) are all stuck on the lower level, unless I isolate the northbound express track from the local (by two full levels), and keep it 1 level deep, and run it above the F/V 2nd Ave station. I may very well do this, because I don't feel like trying to figure out where the northbound express platform's gonna go, and besides it would be more convenient for transfers at Grand, however less convenient for transfers from uptown locals to incoming expresses-they'd have to walk up two or three flights of stairs.
8)At Houston/Chrystie Streets, do the 6 Ave Exp-Chrystie tracks cross over or under the 6 Ave local tracks?
But please, let's get serious here.
Oh... by the way, what brings you back to SubTALK, CC?
Simple Question.
Bless the RESERVE cars.
Also, where is its exact location underground?
The very same people whom you describe were by and large responsible for the very thing you are complaining about. The systematic destruction of the subway seen in the 70s and 80s cannot be blamed on those times, but rather on the money-grubbing people of the 60's who decided that defered maitenance would work.
Besides, as much as I hate to see chain-link fences and razor wire from a railfan and photographic perspective, I do think we're better off today than we were 40 or 50 years ago, in the "glory days" of the subway.
Least today we'll have completely no notice when one, and only one megaton device goes off in Manhattan, the waiting would have driven me crazy, a half-hour is way to long to wait for immenent death.
Here are a couple of questions...
What role do the tail tracks from D5 & D6 headed system southbound toward Jamacia Yard play in laying up V and R trains? Are these tracks used for turning V and R trains or do they turn on the loop track in the Jamacia Yard? Also how many trains layup in the yard beyond 179th/Hillside? Okay, it's more than a couple of questions, do any trains layup at Church Avenue yard in Brooklyn?
Thanks,
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
2. I don't know how many trains are laid up north of the 179 St terminal, but there's room to store one full-length trainset on each of the four upper level tracks, and one trainset each on the four lower level tracks.
3. I was last at the Church Av Yard on the 13th of this month. If I recall correctly, I saw three G trainsets there, two on one track, one on an adjacent track. Four tracks total, each capable of holding one trainset.
Robert
Anyway, here is the kicker. The SEPTA power outage has forced the transit agency to shut down its R-3 West Trenton line "INDEFINITELY". SEPTA WILL NOT PROVIDE SHUTTLE BUS SERVICE and in their words "R-3 passengers will have to find some other way to get to their destinations."
In the newspapers the last couple of days, I saw articles regarding the closing of station booths. Accompanying the articles were charts listing the stations where the booths were closing. In 2 different newspapers I saw the following stations listed:
1) Kings Highway- D Line
2) West 8th Street- D Line
3) Ocean Parkway- D Line
Question: When was the last time a "D" Train stopped at any of those stations?
And the reason I think that the MTA doesn't even realize this is because I saw this in more than one newspaper, which leads me to believe it was taken from an MTA press release of some kind.
NY Post vs MTA - the NY Post
Daily News vs MTA - the MTA
NY Times vs the MTA - the MTA
Newsday vs MTA - that is a tossup
Roger Toussaint/TWU VS. MTA
Alan Hevesi VS. Peter Kalikow - Heh, I can imagine these 2 getting it on in a boxing ring. :-)
And of course...
Riders VS. MTA
Hmm, I'm thinking, do we have any Riders VS. Alan Hevesi here?
Back to the topic, the topic question is rather interesting. The NY Post in particular is not really about news its more of a discounted tabloid newspaper and as for the MTA, well that speaks for itself so you guys decide on that.
The booth list quoted in the paper came from the TWU who claims they had a world exclusive and stated that the MTA gave them the list of which booths to close. The MTA had no comment. It is likely that the MTA gave teh TWU booth id's and they then put together the list of stations and trains who arrive at them
So it's the TWU that is stupid. That is not surprising at all
: ) Elias
I personally think that this is a load of bull. Service after 9/11 was temporary. Non-emergency service plans that are to be in effect for more than a period of, I don't know, a year, are not temporary. (There should be no need for hearings when they are renovating el stations and peak express service is eliminated for a period of time, for example.)
The proposal of B Brighton Express, Q Brighton Local, and D West End will be the subject of hearings before it is implemented next year. It is a change from the de facto "permanent" service even if no permanent service has existed for 20 years. MTA logic.
So, technically, the description may be correct, but not particularly useful.
Also using one side of the bridge for all the traffic on the other side, as well as the original traffic might have a very adverse effect on the structure, since it would be placing just more unbalanced stress on the side of the bridge.
The South side already has to make a nasty jog to connect to BWAY, connecting it to the 6th AV would make it even nastier.
So... I half-fast solution would have been to leave (or now to replace) the north-to-Broadway capibility which would give flexibility a half loaf anyway.
Elias
-- Ed Sachs
There are a few such crossovers remaining in the system, such as where the Myrtle El connects to the main Nassau St line. Certainly no more of them are going to be built in the future.
Correct. That would be stupid, except for emergency re-routes, where everthing is all fouled-up anyway. then it *might* help keep things moving.
Elias
-- Ed Sachs
Now riding NYC subway almost every day, I think when they are trying to implement changes, they do a fantastic job publicizing it, from brochures (multi-lingual may I add) to ads, to the website, to writing it all out behind token clerks, such that it is nearly impossible for any regular rider to not have it down unless they really don't pay attention to anything. Even after the changes are implemented, the conductors make frequent announcements, and the platform signs are installed a week before so people can get used to it even if they haven't been following along from before. I think that people who are ignorant enough not to view these signs before or even after the changes are implemented, especially such major changes labeled with their home lines, then they probably deserve confusion.
I think the majority of the passengers get what the MTA is trying to get across to them come time for a service change, and it isn't right that the service pattern can't be the best it can be because others don't want to pay attention to signage. Many a time, (while I love answering questions), I get asked which way a particular line is when the direction to that line is hanging right over my head, and there is no service diversion. As for riders who don't ride regularly, they should look at a map anyway before they undertake a trip in years to come. We shouldn't be avoiding the flip between the B and D in Brooklyn simply because it'll confuse my uncle when he comes back from Bermuda in five years.
Comments appreciated.
You have described the average NYC Subway rider.
Of course, as railfans, we are all above average which is why we pay attention and understand whatis going on.
"I think that people who are ignorant enough not to view these signs before or even after the changes are implemented, especially such major changes labeled with their home lines, then they probably deserve confusion. "
I have to agree on that except most are not ignorant. They just don't care. All they are concerned about is that the train comes in and gets them to their destination.
Try standing on the downtown Grand Central platform (4,5,6) during the AM rush when there is a problem on the Lex. When the announcement comes over the PA advising people to shuttle over to Times Square to get trains to lower Manhattan or Brooklyn you should see the totally blank stares. "What shuttle?" "Why Times Square?"
Or a #2 comes in and the announcement is made that the train is "making all #5" stops in Manhattan. I always overhear the question
"Does this train stop at Wall St?". Most of these people are from Westchester/Rockland and take MNRR to GCT. I would say there is enough intelligence to understand what is going on. But it is all I can do to keep from bursting out laughing when this occurs.
The beauty of the MTA's Manhattan Bridge plan is that:
-- The Q will have the same service pattern 24x7
-- The D will have the same service pattern 24x7, aside from the Bronx express variant that has existed for decades
-- When the B operates, it will always have the same service pattern, aside from the rush-hour extension to Bedford Pk Blvd that has existed for decades
Every other alternative I've seen is more complicated. Those who propose something different seem more interested in preserving their favorite route in their favorite neighborhood, instead of looking at the good of the system as a whole.
If the objective is to enhance weekend service on CPW, yours might be a good plan. If the objective is to maintain CPW service at current levels, then your plan breaks down. I think the MTA's proposal operates on the latter assumption.
Now, I'm not denying that some people might like enhanced weekend CPW services. But this argument has nothing to do with the MannyB going back online -- the MTA could start running 4 weekend services on CPW tomorrow, if it wanted to.
My modification to NYCT's proposal (which is basically sound, IMO) does away with that confusion:
B (all times) 205th Street to Coney Island via Concourse local, CPW local, 6th Avenue express*, Manhattan Bridge, 4th Avenue express, West End local. Weekdays cut back one stop to Bedford Park Boulevard.
D (weekdays) 205th Street to Brighton Beach via Concourse express (peak direction), CPW express, 6th Avenue express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton express.
Q (all times) 57th Street to Coney Island via Broadway express*, Manhattan Bridge*, Brighton local.
[* Late night local. As a matter of policy, if only two routes run on a line at night, both should be locals, and if possible they should be scheduled 10 minutes apart. This is already the case on the 1/2, the 4/6, and the A/E, and in Queens the E runs local along with the G while only the F runs express.]
This has two effects on actual B/D service, aside from its being more consistent.
First, weekend Concourse and 6th Avenue service is local on CPW, not express. This change is long overdue. C service alone is not sufficient for the crowds generated by the Museum of Natural History and by the denser-than-ever Upper West Side, and tourists coming from Herald Square should have direct service to the museum. This past Sunday, I rode on the most crowded non-rush D I have ever seen. It was running local. Coincidence? Of course not. The D on weekends normally has a few passengers in each car on CPW; I had to stand on Sunday. Concourse riders can either plan for the additional 3 minutes of riding time or transfer to the A.
Second, Concourse express service is extended to middays. This is probably not warranted by actual usage, but I'm including it for consistency and to throw Concourse riders a bone.
"But that's hardly simple. Bronx local passengers sometimes have to take the B (rush hours, peak direction), sometimes have to take the D (off-peak), and sometimes can take either (rush hours, anti-peak direction)."
I suspect the rationale was that the Manhattan and Bronx B/D routes have operated this way for a very long time, and to change them now would be gratuitous. Service patterns in Brooklyn had to change no matter what, so they chose the option that was simplest while leaving the Manhattan and Bronx routes as they had long operated.
The current B/D arrangement is only five years old. It used to be a B/C arrangement, and before that a B/CC arrangement, with some shifting of terminals (145th Street wasn't a midday terminal until the late 80's).
Saturday January 2003 Ridership:
Concourse: 39,500
Washington Hts 26,000
125th & 145th 25,000
Central Pk West, exc above 27,000
Of course, perhaps the poor service drives people to the IRT, with 82,000 riders just from 96th to 66th.
Still, keep in mind that some of those Concourse riders transfer to the 4 at 161st and others transfer to the A at 145th, 125th, and 59th. They wouldn't be affected if their D express were transformed into a B local. A few even transfer at 145th and 125th to the C local, and they'd clearly benefit.
Do you have counts for Sunday? (Also, while you're at it, for 86th/Bway on Sunday? I'm just curious about that one.)
As I said, you should write public affairs and try to get a whole set. I don't have the data at home, where I am now. I expect Sunday would be similar to Saturday, though lower.
The center staircases at the middle of the platform is to access new RTO and station field offices only. The wall tiles on the platform are much better looking than the UGLINESS when the bricks laid bare at the S/B platform and tiles were missing.
here
1116-1120 with 1126-1130 have entered 4 service. This is Trainset #6.
Here's the updated list of Bombardier R-142s on the #4 line:
#1: 7146-7155 (3/24/03)
#2: 7131-7135, 7156-7160 (3/31/03)
#3: 7136-7140, 7176-7180 (4/4/03)
#4: 7141-7145, 7161-7165 (4/10/03)
#5: 1106-1110, 1121-1125 (4/14/03)
#6: 1116-1120, 1126-1130 (4/24/03)
1156-1160 were delivered on April 16. Coming attractions are 7171-7175 & 7166-7170, 1136-1140 & 1131-1135 and 1101-1105 & 1141-1145.
No Redbirds at all on the 4 since April 19. The R-62s should start moving any day.
Tick, tock....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yes, I saw the pictures you posted on 2 April.
That was the "burn-in" crew parking the train for lunch.
They sometimes dismount and go down to the Mickey D's across from Yankee Stadium.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Peace
David
-Stef
Wow!! That's news! Like, Happy Easter!
I know there were none on Monday 4/21, or any reported sightings since then. That said, until they actually get removed from Jerome anything is possible.
The trip time is appreciated and a consist would be also. The one that I was given for 4/17 and 4/19 seemed a bit tentaive:
(S) 9232/9233-9300/9301-9108/9109-9234/9235-9254/9255 (N).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
There are now 200 R-143s in passenger service, including all cars EXCEPT 8205-8212 and 8117-8120. 8305-8312 were activated on April 8, 2003.
8205-8212 is the Siemens propulsion prototye train and requires extensive modifications before acceptance testing will begin. It will NOT be retrofitted with the standard Bombardier propulsion package.
8117-8120 is the other half of the CBTC Test Train (OMSES Unit 8121-8124 is in service). It reportedly has a variety of ills to be remedied before it will also begin acceptance testing.
That should be it for a while.
East New York has well over 600 cars in its fleet, so movement of R-40M/42s to Coney Island can be expected to resume at some point. One more R-32 train should also be transferred from Jamaica to Pitkin.
Enjoy the Spring!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
wayne
There is no place in the B division where the 75 footers cannot run, but in various places on the J,L,and M, if 2 75 footers passed each other going opposite directions, 1 would knock the other off the el.
I think, alone the 75 footers are fine on the Eastern Division, it's when two trains are moving in opposite directions, as mentioned that the problem starts. I believe the spots that ban the 75 footers, where two trains would side-swipe each other (from what others here have said) are:
-The Cypress Hills/Crescent Street turns,
-The turn by Marcy Avenue,
-One or two turns on the Canarsie Line (I think by Graham Avenue),
-The M turn at Myrtle-Broadway.
As far as I know, a 75 footer would make it from Broad Street to Essex Street in the Nassau Subway, and over the Bridge, but Marcy would be the first problem.
Someone once said here that they "witnessed" an R46 at Myrtle-Broadway. I forgot who it was, and there was no photographic proof, and I have no idea why it would have been there, so who knows if it was true.
Hey, that's what I thought to (and still think). But this poster swore to it back then. I know doesn't mean much....but.....
Evidently so, unless the Myrtle and 5th Avenue Els were reinstated specially for the purpose of getting that R46 to Fresh Pond.
I don't know if that's actually the case, but it probably would not be done as you'd lose 30' of train by running 75' cars (75'x6=450' vs 60'x8=480'), given that the platforms are short.
At every Brighton station, put two Bs instead of one, and have barbecues a plenty on opening day.
On the West End line, have free medical checkups.
The New "B" - the NEW home of the Slants!
wayne
R32
P.S. I'd enjoy some pork chops, although I consider it cruel.
I have bad molars.
I have written before: you and I have different senses of humor, so most likely for me your humor won’t work. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.
wayne
P.S. Christopher, either "j/k" means "just kidding" or else now they're going to switch the Jamaica with a route I never heard of.
hopefully some psychologists also, I think you need your head checked out.
After a few times, she started to notice that I would "conveniently" get on the L each time at Union Square (of course I would let L’s pass if I was early, and she wasn’t on the L when I got there). After a few weeks of this, we started to talk, and we went out a few times. Unfortunately, she was transferring schools, and wound up going to Virginia, so that was the end of that...but I almost always think of her when I pass Graham Avenue, the platform where I had my first kiss with her - at one of the mosaic signs...the best of both worlds for a railfan......
I didn't have too much luck other than that on the subway. The only other station that holds a "love" place in my heart besides Graham Ave is 33rd Street on Lex, the home station of my former girlfriend. You'd be suprised what you could do in a station without people noticing....if those "33" eagles could talk - I knew I loved something about that station besides the great renovation they did there.
Sorry, brah!
Thats my story
; )
There is no spring to apply the brakes. Reducing brake pipe
pressure below 70 psi causes air to be admitted to the cylinder.
The cylinder pushes the shoes against the wheels, just like
a SMEE, but there is only one cylinder, mounted on the car body,
and attached to the trucks with pull rods. The spring in the brake
cylinder actually works to release the brakes when the pressure
is vented, again just like on a SMEE.
The "inversion" of operation, i.e. reducing pressure in the brake
pipe causing and increase in cylinder pressure, happens because
of the triple valve (in actuality, the UE-5 Universal Valve, but
commonly called a triple valve). The operation of the triple
valve in conjunction with the brake pipe and aux reservoir is
explained on a few railroad-related sites with diagrams and
everything.
At least Unca Lou's newbies didn't have a trained mindset to fight when dealing with ME-23's. Heh.
Basically, you'd pull the handle almost parallel with the rails to reduce air by about 5-8 pounds to setup the shoes on the wheels, a bit more fed in began the application. After taking a reduction, you'd move the handle into the lap position to hold the amount of air, forward to release. The action was gradual - deviation of the handle determined how MUCH air moved in or out.
To prevent a brick-wall stop, as you got down to about 3 MPH, you'd release, then take anothe small bite to stop and hold. I see Unca Peter's gone into a few more of the details ... it was indeed different from running SMEE's and often folks who ran the newer cars would get themselves past the homeball or worse, brickwall. :)
Dunno ... I always considered SMEE as a bit too spooty - allowed ANYONE to run a railcar and stop it in the same town in which they applied. But then again, SMEE is (ahem) "manly" compared to the 143's. During a bit of playing with piloting by a friend on the Canarsie who had the good sense God gave them to get a better job at a better railroad since, I was just floored at pulling the handle back and doing NOTHING and had the train run at speed halfway into Wilson, pulled and held and the damned thing stopped all by itself right at the marker. *NO* *FUN*, no skill required. :(
Sorry I won't be able to shape up for this trip either, we're starting to see some INTEREST from some institutional accounts in what we make so HOPEFULLY there'll be the scratch to get down there NEXT month to meet and greet, flip Steffie a few nickels (I *will* require a sea shanty or two for the money though) and pull some handles and violate rule G at the end of the day. :)
-Stef
We gotta TRY dat. :)
See if Stef would go for such a thing on 6688.
Maybe 2775 could be rigged with a moo. Would you believe that old gal is 80 this year?
-Stef
I listened for it, believe me. Working the levers was fun even without the chimes.
But they took it out, fun was over and it wasn't prototypical of the car. Same for that WD 10 that was on the end of the platform.
And as to your comment about counting to five and praying with respect to 1227, once upon a time that was a way of life with the trains of yore ... I think I'll stop, I hope I'll stop, I hope we stop. Uh-oh. Whew. Anything less makes for a BORING run. Heh.
Except on the IND. Then we'll be serving chow halfway through the trip. Moo.
But that's just another thing that makes Branford fun - after the "show" when we put all our toys back away in the carbarn and cut the power, we head off to the great beyond, some food, some beer and some chuckles. Working for the TA was NEVER as much fun. Great trains, great crew, great attitude. WELL worth the trip.
It had been a while. :)
That's why I wasn't so fussy when I rolled her out and did a few trips, she was a LOT more cooperative than many. Heh.
Me, presonally, I prefer the challenge of stopping a car like 1227...where you surprise yourself by stopping that behemoth even though it doesn't feel that way when you initially go for braking...it's an art to master her controls...
When you pull brake on "modern" equipment (SMEE modern? Well, YEAH!) the AMOUNT of handle pull is proportional somewhat to the actual braking effort you get, much like a brake pedal on a car, except that here it's operated by hand ... pull more, more brake, release a bit, less brake and most importantly, modern equipment will "self-lap" at whatever setting you take.
In AMUE, you could FEED air, or RELEASE air and return the brake handle to the "lapping" position and HOLD whatever you took or let go. This was the major difference as far as operating went - if you pulled the handle all the way back and left it there as you might on SMEE or later, it would make for ONE UNHAPPY STOP, and probably not where you meant to. Forget to lap after releasing a bit (in the graduated release zone) and you'd find you had NO brakes at all. Whatever went wrong on my own errant layup had something to do with the "lapping piston" not working in my situation.
But there you have it - As I said earlier, I'm sure the UMD folks on the rails would find this ... amusing ... :)
They're GREAT old gals (the LoV's as well as the Arnines) but they can be a handful and get away from you if you forget that they're NOT SMEE's ... it's all in the wrist action. Heh.
Now we've got 142's and 143's ... I'll bet when the 160's start showing up, the person locked in the broom closet will be able to PHONE it in. (grin)
Yeah, that was another thing about the 143's ... kept trying to find subtalk on the screen, but all I could get was Harry's place. Heh.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Others assisted in ensuring that Unca Selkirk had all the tools required, but didn't want to be named. Chances are Heypaul didn't want it either, but he didn't tell me that I *couldn't* say so. And what HE provided was the ORIGINAL hard rubber style plug, not one of the newer compostire types. Thus, I have everything I once had with the TA in the original issues of the day! Happy happy happy ... joy joy joy.
I'm afraid to ask about that hard rubber style plug. Weren't those things all metal?
But the "business end" of the plug had metal on it, the rest was all insulator ... except for the chain of course so's you could tie it to your reverser.
The talk is open to the public, and will be held in Room 491 (4th floor) of the MIT Student Center, 84 Mass. Ave., Cambridge, MA.
Take the #1 (Mass. Ave.) bus to MIT; it stops right in front of the Student Center at MIT's main entrance. Or, the Red Line to Kendall/MIT and walk to Mass. Ave. (about 15 minutes).
I hope to see some SubTalkers there!
I can't make it (I'm in KC), but I'd love to see a tape of it (or watch it on-line, or read a transcript).
Probably the most interesting fact Mr. Nagaraja told us was the plan for the South Ferry rebuild.
There will be a two-track (10 car) terminal that is east of Battery Park. But the current loop track will REMAIN for reroutes, storage, etc. There will be a diverging route between Rector and South Ferry, where new tracks will dip under the 4/5 line to approach the new terminal.
The project is fully funded and in the design stage.
SOUTH FERRY: The newest station to soon be added to the Abandoned Station list....SAD.
That's gonna be a big dip, since the 4/5 is already dipping down to go below the current South Ferry station.
Better watch, or else you might end up with a significant net gain which (like the V) has enough negative aspects to bring out a barrage from the Bauman's of the world. In this case, I guess I am a Bauman, since I was in favor of just extending the platform and living with the platform extenders.
Checking a Downtown map, I see that the new terminal would be centered more opposite the depicted docks and closer to One New York Plaza.
So, getting off the SI ferry you'd then walk to your right instead f left to get to the 1 train.
Either way, it sounds like a far more expensive proposition than simply extending the current station 255 feet north from the rear of the current platform, or building a new terminal station beneath Battery Park itself (though the required construction within the park seems to have brought out the NIMBY fears in the MTA, which may be why they're willing a spend a few $100 million more to move the station a few 100 feet to the east).
According to the description, the MTA's plan centers the new terminal better in relation to the ferry slips. If you have more than one ferry service there, the new South Ferry station will be closer to all of them.
However the preliminary plan for the #7 extension is to have four tail tracks for storage past the terminal at Javits Center.
Now, of course, users of the South Ferry station itself will have effectively more service, since 15 tph of 10-car trains is a 33% service increase over 20 tph of 5-car trains. But South Ferry isn't the busiest station on the line. In 2000, it had 4,770,903 annual fare registrations. Who is going to tell the riders at 79th Street (5,319,045 annual fare registrations) and at 86th Street (5,876,037) and at 66th Street (6,674,250) and at 50th Street (8,052,456) that they are going to have to endure a 25% service cut, with 25% longer waits for trains that are 25% more crowded? Who is going to tell the riders at those four stations, who for years had the least dependable service in the system until service was increased to 20 tph last year, that their undependable service will soon return permanently?
The current bottleneck on the line is the north terminal. There have been calls to turn some trains short of the terminal to allow for more service on the busiest part of the line. Even if the south terminal can handle the same 20 tph as the north terminal, there will be no way to increase service beyond that 20 tph.
There might be a potential solution: take alternate trains out of service at Chambers or Rector and send them light through the old South Ferry loop. But it would be even more difficult to empty a train at Chambers or Rector than to empty a train at 137th or Dyckman, since daily commuters are more likely to understand service patterns than tourists, and South Ferry sees a lot of tourists.
A number of us have suggested a simpler upgrade to the South Ferry station: extend the existing platform five carlengths back and add staircases and elevators to the new rear end of the platform. This, it seems to me, would solve all the problems with the current station, would maintain the visibility of its unique artwork, would not jeopardize service on the rest of the line, and would probably be a good deal cheaper.
I intend to email NYCT to express my concern.
I'm not willing to assume. This isn't just a theoretical issue as far as I'm concerned -- it's a very real concern I have about the service on the line I ride most often. I don't want to assume that all will be fine and be proven wrong after the damage is done. I intend to email NYCT and make my feelings clear about any planned "improvement" that reduces the capacity of my line to anything less than 30 tph.
All depends how they route the tracks. Right now, the tracks come into the highly curved station from the west-northwest. With a slight modification, they could come in from the west, or curve a bit more before the platform starts, and you could have tail tracks heading underneath South Street.
I guess that means I have to do it.
---Choo Choo
BTW, did anybody find out if the R160 so called test train was at 207th Yard?
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Hope this helps.
I also could try to talk him into posting his photos from that particular trip.
R32
Aside from the sentence I gave you above, I can't find any details.
I want to thank ABNY for hosting yet another forum on Lower Manhattan, the second one in two weeks.
Bill told me he considered renaming ABNY the Association for a Better Lower Manhattan, but the acronym doesn't work.
When I look around the room, it's heartening to see so many leaders in the rebuilding effort...
Centuries from now, history will record September 11th, 2001 as a turning point for humanity –a date when those who believe in fear were overcome by those who believe in freedom.
But for us here today and our fellow New Yorkers, September 11th, 2001 will never be an abstract date in history.
For us, it was the day we lost loved ones, friends and neighbors...
For us, it was the day a battle began in our own backyard...For us, it is personal.
And that is why rebuilding Lower Manhattan cannot be an elusive promise reserved for another generation or for a distant tomorrow.
It is our honor, our obligation to rebuild.
Our place in time demands that we be bold and daring and swift.
It's fitting that we gather this afternoon at the crossroads of Lower Manhattan's historic past and bright future –to our south, the Statue of Liberty...
...to our north, the World Trade Center site, where a new symbol of the strength and courage of New Yorkers will rise.
In fact, the place we stand today is an example of New York's determination to move forward.
On January 29, 2002, the Ritz Carlton became the first new building to open in Lower Manhattan after the attacks.
Many questioned the wisdom of opening a new luxury hotel within five months, and five blocks, of the most devastating terrorist attack in our nation's history.
But the Ritz had the foresight to believe then what we now know for certain -- Lower Manhattan's best days are yet to come.
Earlier this year, in my State of the State address, I pledged that if 2002 was the year of recovery in Lower Manhattan, 2003 would be the year of renewal.
The seeds of that renewal have already taken hold, and will only flourish in the months and years ahead.
This afternoon, I will propose a series of short-term initiatives to be completed within one year, that will significantly improve the quality of life for thousands who live, work or visit Lower Manhattan. I will announce a plan for a new 21st century transportation network in Lower Manhattan -- one befitting the nation's third largest central business district and the financial capital of the world.
And I will set an aggressive schedule to carry out that transportation plan as well as the rebuilding of the World Trade Center Site and the broader community.
While the Libeskind plan for the site will be the catalyst for a new Lower Manhattan, the challenges we face radiate far beyond the 16-acre World Trade Center site.
We must extend the revitalization of Lower Manhattan to those communities that were not in the shadows of the Twin Towers, but nonetheless need our help.
Let me congratulate Mayor Bloomberg for his extraordinary vision for Lower Manhattan, which he outlined for you last December...proposing a new retail, entertainment, and arts corridor along Fulton Street stretching from the Hudson River to the East River...
...more housing south of Liberty Street...
...new parks and open spaces...and many other bold initiatives. Mayor Bloomberg and I share a vision for a strong and vibrant Lower Manhattan, and we share the determination and commitment to make it happen.
But as we look to the future, let us draw inspiration from just how far we've come since the attacks.
We must not lose sight of, or take for granted, the enormity of the devastation we encountered on September 11th.
2,792 innocent lives were taken from us –not soldiers at war, but firefighters, police officers, EMTs and thousands of others –mothers, fathers, sons and daughters - heroes all - who went to work that day but never came home.
We will never forget them or their countless acts of heroism.
More than 370,000 jobs were displaced...Seven buildings and 15 million square feet of commercial space destroyed...and another 15 million damaged.
Five subway lines and twelve stations were disrupted or closed south of Canal Street.
The 1 and 9 tracks and the PATH station were completely leveled, the tubes flooded, leaving hundreds of thousands of commuters unable to get to work.
Meanwhile, in the days that followed, businesses struggled to stay afloat while many residents either couldn't return - or were simply too traumatized to do so.
The residential occupancy rate plummeted to less than 50 percent in some areas.
And yet, in the midst of great adversity, we met the worst of humanity with the best of humanity.
The spirit that gripped our City within minutes of the attack did not fade with the last embers at Ground Zero.
The cleanup of the site - accomplished months ahead of schedule and for billions of dollars less than projected - set the standard for the rebuilding effort that followed.
More than $1 billion in donations poured in to help victims, while President Bush committed over $20 billion to get New York back on its feet.
New ferry service was quickly established to bring thousands of displaced commuters downtown.
The MTA restored the 1 and 9 line and reopened all but one of the closed stations within one year of the attacks.
The Port Authority –still mourning the loss of 84 of its own employees and the destruction of its headquarters - immediately set out to build a temporary PATH station on the site.
The State Department of Transportation reconstructed West Street and built a temporary bridge to reconnect Battery Park City and the World Financial Center with the rest of downtown.
By the end of this year, a little more than two years after the attack, every transportation line disrupted on September 11th will have been restored –yet another sign of New York's continued vitality.
The Empire State Development Corporation and the City's Economic Development Corporation administered more than $1 billion in aid to help more than 15,000 businesses, while the LMDC created a $300 million grant program to retain and attract residents.
And it is working.
To date, nearly 300,000 jobs have returned and the residential occupancy rate is now over 95 percent. In fact, the occupancy rate in Battery Park City is higher today than it was on September 10th, or for that matter, in the entire history of Battery Park City.
Nineteen months after the attacks, the transformation of Lower Manhattan is underway and the progress is unmistakable.
If you were to walk up West Street today, you would see the Port Authority building a temporary PATH station at remarkable speed...
...Con Edison building a new substation to provide redundant power supply for all of Lower Manhattan...
...Verizon working to repair damage from the attacks...
...engineers working to reinforce the slurry wall...and so much more.
Yet, perhaps our greatest achievement is the development of a vision for the World Trade Center site and the setting for the memorial.
Daniel Libeskind reconciled what once seemed an impossible contradiction –to transform a 16-acre void on our landscape into a place where loss is remembered, and life is celebrated.
This plan leaves exposed a portion of the slurry wall - a metaphor for the strength and endurance of New Yorkers and American democracy, which did not buckle under the weight of so much evil.
It creates a vast and respectful setting for a memorial not yet conceived, which will be the centerpiece of the site forever.
And it defiantly reclaims our skyline with a new beacon symbolizing all that makes our nation great.
Equally important as the design itself is the process by which it was created.
The terrorists who attacked our city sought not only to take human life, but to destroy our way of life.
The public process that inspired the plan reaffirmed the democratic ideals that came under attack on September 11th and demonstrated to a world audience the power of freedom.
We could not have imagined this inspirational concept one year ago, nor would it exist but for the sustained public interest that propelled this process forward.
To the more than 10 million people that took part in that process, New York thanks you.
Now that we have a shared vision for the site, we cannot relax our efforts.
We must redouble them. Lower Manhattan continues to endure hardships associated with the attacks, and will for some time.
At this critical juncture, let us not waver in our resolve to rebuild.
Let us, rather, move forward with a renewed sense of urgency.
Today, I am calling on the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation to fund approximately $50 million in short-term capital projects that will accomplish two over-arching objectives:
First, to improve accessibility in and around Lower Manhattan...
...and second, to enhance the quality-of-life in Lower Manhattan, making this a more attractive place to live, work and visit.
Most of the projects, which were identified with the help of the Mayor's office and business and community leaders, will be completed within six months –all of them within one year.
We cannot wait a moment longer.
We must make it easier to navigate the site and surrounding areas and continue to normalize conditions for workers, residents and visitors.
To reconnect the World Financial Center and Battery Park City with the rest of Lower Manhattan we will build a new enclosed bridge over West Street near Vesey Street linked with convenient walkways to mass transit facilities.
The bridge will open by November, in time for the reopening of the temporary PATH station and the restoration of PATH service.
The Liberty Street walkway and bridge will be upgraded.
And we will provide a covered walkway on Liberty and Church Streets linking the World Financial Center with the rest of Lower Manhattan.
We will undertake a number of initiatives to enhance the quality of life downtown.
Broadway should be worthy of its historic distinction as the Canyon of Heroes.
The Downtown Alliance's Streetscape program will transform Broadway into a grand boulevard with new landmark gray sidewalks...granite curbs with street names etched in corners….
...black granite strips denoting each of the 200 ticker tape parades….and new custom design lighting fixtures and bollards.
An additional $4 million from the LMDC will enable the Alliance to finish the transformation of Broadway, from Bowling Green to City Hall, by next year. It will happen.
For many years, the greenmarket at the World Trade Center site was one of Lower Manhattan's most popular destinations.
This summer, a new greenmarket will open on Broadway in Liberty Park Plaza, another sign that Lower Manhattan is back in business.
The September 11th attacks required us to heighten our security efforts at high profile locations - such as the New York Stock Exchange.
But the measures we put in place to protect life should not make it difficult to enjoy life.
I am calling on the LMDC to work with New York City, the Stock Exchange, as well as business and community leaders, to maintain appropriate security, while beautifying and improving access to the area around the Exchange.
For example, let us determine a more permanent solution for Broad Street than rows upon rows of police barricades.
And let's get that done quickly. I want to thank Dick Grasso, for his commitment to work with us on this project and for his unwavering commitment to Lower Manhattan.
As we move quickly to determine the fate of damaged buildings around the World Trade Center, we must do whatever possible to make them less of a blight on our community.
The black shroud over the Deutsche Bank building is an ever-present reminder of the darkest moment in our past.
Until the fate of that building is resolved, I have asked the LMDC to replace the shroud with a mural trumpeting a new symbol to rise at Ground Zero -- the 1,776-foot Freedom Tower.
I want to thank Deutsche Bank for working with us on this project, and for reaffirming and strengthening their commitment to Lower Manhattan following the attacks.
*** If we are to transform Lower Manhattan into a 24-hour community, we must invest in the resources and amenities that make a community great.
Today, I am calling on the LMDC to contribute up to $3 million toward a new high school -- the Millennium High School for 250 9th and 10th graders at 75 Broad Street -- and I urge potential private sector contributors to do their part.
The LMDC contribution will ensure that the Millennium High School will open this September.
I am also calling upon LMDC to fund $10 million in enhancements to open spaces throughout Lower Manhattan –in Chinatown, the Lower East Side, Tribeca, and elsewhere, as the Mayor called for in his vision.
This will create a network of parks and recreational spaces in communities where they are now in short supply.
The LMDC will work with the City of New York and the communities to identify and implement these projects.
We must also further the transformation of our waterfront along the Hudson River by supporting the construction of new recreational amenities.
The LMDC will work with the State and the City as we move forward to implement the next phase of the master plan for the Hudson River Park.
We must also do more to support our local businesses by marketing Lower Manhattan as a place for shopping, restaurants and cultural institutions.
The Empire State Development Corporation will fund a new three-point plan to help these businesses.
First, ESDC will launch a new $7 million "I Love New York" tourism campaign that will market Lower Manhattan to a domestic and, for the first time, an international audience.
Second, ESDC will launch a new discount card to promote shopping at downtown stores, restaurants, and businesses.
The card will be good for 10 percent off any participating destination and it will be promoted in a second campaign highlighting Lower Manhattan's accommodations, restaurants and retail facilities. And finally, ESDC will continue its efforts through its business attraction and retention program to help small businesses in Lower Manhattan.
These are only a fraction of the improvements we are pursuing in Lower Manhattan over the next several months.
Taken together, they will help retain and attract businesses and residents downtown while we work hard to realize the long-term vision for Lower Manhattan –beginning with transportation.
The greatest public investment we can make in our future is to revamp Lower Manhattan's antiquated transportation infrastructure into a 21st century integrated system.
At each table is a blueprint for a new Lower Manhattan transportation system that will be the envy of the world.
It was prepared by a team including the Port Authority, the Mayor's office, the LMDC, the MTA, the State DOT and all of our partners, working together.
This is not a theoretical proposal destined for the archives of state government. This plan will be carried out.
And thanks to the commitment of President Bush, we have at our disposal $4.55 billion to get underway immediately.
And thanks to an expedited process put in place by the Federal Transit Administration, these projects will not be delayed.
The creation of a 24-hour community will inject new life into Lower Manhattan but also place additional demands on our transportation network.
We must anticipate and accommodate the changes brought about by September 11th...the creation of a memorial that will attract at least 5 million visitors a year…
...a new World Trade Center site with tens of thousands of workers…and a revitalized Lower Manhattan with new cultural institutions attracting millions more.
As it stands now, Lower Manhattan already has the highest concentration of subway ridership and the densest concentration of subway service in the nation –15 lines and 20 stations serving one and a quarter square miles south of Canal street.
And yet, nearly all of Lower Manhattan's transportation infrastructure was built in the early part of the 20th century.
The Lower Manhattan transportation plan I'm proposing today has four pillars: To create a new grand point of arrival in Lower Manhattan, akin to midtown's Grand Central Station...
...To rationalize and improve Lower Manhattan's tangled web of subway lines...
...To provide a respectful setting for a memorial and create a grand promenade along west street...
...And to create direct rail and ferry access to Long Island and the region's airports.
The plan provides cost estimates and timetables, but let me take a moment to briefly describe key projects.
In the heart of downtown, the Lower Manhattan transit complex will anchor a network of connections to the region and the world.
This dramatic complex will consist of a new PATH terminal on the World Trade Center site, and a new Fulton Street Transit Center at the intersection of Broadway and Fulton streets linked by an underground concourse.
The PATH terminal will welcome 150,000 people a day downtown.
Located on Church Street, the PATH terminal will open onto the large public square envisioned by Daniel Libeskind where cultural facilities, a new hotel and conference center and a major new office building will converge.
The terminal will become a new architectural icon for Lower Manhattan recognized around the world, doubling as an important civic space for exhibitions and events.
It will be equipped with longer platforms that can accommodate 10 PATH cars instead of eight –increasing PATH capacity by 25 percent.
Just to the east, the MTA will rebuild the Fulton Street Transit Center, untangling and rationalizing a confusing maze of nine subway lines.
The new station will feature new and more station entrances; wider corridors and comfortable waiting areas, smoother and more direct connections between subway lines, and an attractive street-level presence to herald the renewal of the entire Fulton Street corridor. New underground concourses will connect the Fulton Street Transit Center to the PATH Terminal and continue west to the World Financial Center.
These concourses will make connections across Lower Manhattan quick, direct, and convenient.
To the south, we will reconstruct the South Ferry subway station to allow a full-length subway train to discharge passengers, something that the current station cannot accommodate.
The station improvements will reduce commuting time on the 1 and 9 line to and from midtown and for Staten Island residents. Today, I am pleased to announce that the MTA has developed a new plan for reconstructing South Ferry... a plan that does not jeopardize our valuable park land.
And the station will be closer to the N & R line and the ferry.
As part of the transportation plan, we will also transform West Street, a wide expanse of concrete and pavement that today isolates Battery Park City from the rest of downtown.
Under our plan, this highway will be remade into a magnificent tree-lined promenade.
West Street will become downtown's signature boulevard –a distinguished stretch rather than a barren divide.
Adjacent to the World Trade Center site, a new short tunnel from Vesey Street to Liberty Street will divert loud, fast-moving highway traffic underground to protect the dignity of the memorial, while also providing an elegant welcome at the front door of the World Financial Center.
As part of our shared vision with Mayor Bloomberg, we will also achieve the restoration of Fulton and Greenwich Streets through the World Trade Center site, infusing life across the full length of these streets.
Dozens of new shops, cafes, and restaurants will be created that will extend the workday vitality of Lower Manhattan into the evenings and weekends.
Coupled with the Downtown Alliance's beautiful streetscape improvements and the ongoing work of the state and city departments of transportation, these new investments will link together the many neighborhoods of Lower Manhattan –from Tribeca to the Financial District, from Chinatown to Battery Park City.
As we make it easier for people to travel to Lower Manhattan, we must position downtown as the gateway to the region and the world.
In addition to the ongoing efforts by the Port Authority to extend PATH service to Newark Airport, I have asked the LMDC, Port Authority, and MTA to work with our partners at the City to create direct rail service from Lower Manhattan to Long Island, and JFK.
Long Island is one of the fastest growing areas of the region.
By building a direct connection from Lower Manhattan to Long Island, we will ensure that New Yorkers can take advantage of the new job opportunities that downtown will provide.
JFK is the metropolitan region's premier international airport.
By simultaneously building a direct connection to JFK –which is only minutes from the Long Island Railroad's key junction, Jamaica station –we will provide a service that gives Lower Manhattan firms a global reach.
The transportation agencies and the LMDC, working with the City, will analyze the various options for Long Island and JFK access, and select the best within one year.
Once the plan is selected, we will immediately enter into the required environmental review.
By the conclusion of the environmental review, we will identify all the resources necessary to fund it - and we will build it. For Newark Liberty Airport, planning is already underway to extend the PATH train 2.5 miles to the airport, where riders will be able to board the Air Train.
I want to thank Governor McGreevey for his support, not only for this project, but for the entire rebuilding effort.
While we work over the next year to determine the best permanent course for direct access, we will take interim steps to establish direct access to JFK and LaGuardia through the use of ferries.
Lower Manhattan's ferry system, expanded in the wake of September 11th in partnership with Mayor Bloomberg, has proven a capable and valuable addition to the downtown transportation network.
To capitalize on this progress, I have asked the Port Authority to work with the LMDC and the City to undertake a study of ferry network expansion.
In late 2004, we will launch a fast ferry from Lower Manhattan to LaGuardia, cutting the commute in half - to less than forty minutes.
In 2005, we will launch fast ferry service directly to Kennedy where it will link with the Air Train –again dramatically cutting travel time.
These interim efforts combined with our long term planning for Long Island commuter service and access to all three area airports will energize Lower Manhattan's economy and propel its future growth as a place to work, live and visit.
Our competitors around the country and the world –Chicago, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong –all possess direct regional commuter and international airport service from their central business districts.
I am determined to ensure that Lower Manhattan not only meets, but exceeds this world standard by providing such access.
Beyond transportation, we must move forward to transform our shared vision for Lower Manhattan into reality.
For the first time since the attacks, we have not only a vision for redevelopment but also a comprehensive timeline of how the revitalization of Lower Manhattan will unfold.
It is an ambitious plan of swift action.
It leaves no room for error or delay, for parochial concerns or unecessary legal battles.
It demands of each of us -- and all government agencies involved -- that which we know New Yorkers are most capable of -- UNITY... a collective sense of determination... a shared vision for our future.
Let me make one thing clear: there's a lot to look forward to in Lower Manhattan, and you will see it with your own eyes, beginning next week with the return of the Tribeca Film Festival.
Several long-awaited neighborhood anchors will soon return, starting with the Millennium Hotel next week, followed in the summer by the reopening of the Borders book store and the return of the Greenmarket.
The nation's first environmentally sustainable high-rise residential building - The Solaire - will open this summer in Battery Park City, along with the dedication of new baseball fields...
In June, the LMDC will invite cultural institutions around the world to express interest in locating on the World Trade Center site.
We will begin designing the Fulton Transit Center and South Ferry while launching a study of direct access to airports and Long Island.
In the fall, the Millennium High School will open its doors...a new bridge will span West Street...a design for the World Trade Center site memorial will be selected... ...And in November – again, ahead of schedule – PATH service will be ready to carry 65,000 people a day to the World Trade Center site.
By the end of 2004, more than 3,000 new units of residential housing in Battery Park City alone will be in the pipeline.…the Whitehall Ferry Terminal will open…the fast ferry to LaGuardia will launch…and the downtown Manhattan heliport will begin regular service to airports….
In 2005, we will break ground on the new permanent PATH terminal, the new Fulton Street Transit Center...and the reconstruction of South Ferry.
We will open a new ferry terminal at the World Financial Center...Greenwich street will reopen to pedestrian access… and the West Side Highway will be transformed into a new tree lined promenade running south of Liberty Street, rivaling the Champs Elysees in France –or should I say, surpassing.
And by 2006, just five years after the worst attack on U.S. soil, Lower Manhattan will have been transformed…. the permanent Path terminal will open, along with the Fulton Transit Center to the east. The substructure for the memorial will be complete, allowing for construction to proceed, and Libeskind's spectacular entranceway to the site, the wedge of light - where the sun will shine without shadow the morning of every September 11th - will have been created.
2006 will also be the year New Yorkers reclaim their skyline.
By the fifth anniversary of the attack, September 11th, 2006, we will top off a new icon –the 1,776 foot tall Freedom Tower.
For all who come here, no matter the direction, they will witness the tower's imprint on the horizon - and they will know our determination to overcome evil.
Less than two years later, the Freedom Tower will be ready for occupancy. And today, I am pleased to announce the first tenant: the Governor of the State of New York.
This morning, I authorized the Office of General Services to relocate the Offices of the Governor from 633 Third Avenue to Ground Zero.
We will lead by example, and I invite the business community to follow suit.
Next week, New Yorkers will move closer to fulfilling our solemn obligation.
On Monday, we will launch a worldwide competition to design a memorial at the World Trade Center site, for all those lost on September 11th and in the 1993 bombing.
The memorial will provide a quiet place to reflect upon those tragic events, and to recall the heroism that prevailed in their aftermath –a heroism that still prevails today. But Lower Manhattan will also serve as a living memorial for the ages.
Let us remember those we lost not for how they died, but for how they lived.
And let us define Lower Manhattan not by the hatred of a single day, but by the courage that triumphed that day and the days after.
When our work is done, the history of Lower Manhattan will have been written not by the terrorists who attacked our City, but by the millions of New Yorkers who stood up to defend it, and who worked to rebuild it.
Thank you.
Just a study. Well, we'll have to see.
I was a big booster of the N to LGA. But since it has been discovered that JFK has airside capacity, whereas LGA does not, that tips a balance. Perhaps a change in accessibility that makes JFK "closer" timewise is a good thing.
(I'm intrigued by the short tunnel on West, though. That might work.)
I love Downtown, much more than Midtown, because it is a place for pedestrians. Several streets are pedestrianized, and the narrow streets slow traffic and make walking safer. Battery Park City has pedestrian paths. The WTC had its flaws, but also separated walkers from drivers.
The Dey Street tunnel and a West Street tunnel would build on this. There could be a whole Downtown people could walk around without being hit by a car, or even waiting at a light. Terrorist threat aside, it would be a better place for youngsters to walk around on their own than Midtown.
This is an economic question.
Could Downtown rival Midtown as the region's premier office district? That implies commuter rail to Downtown would pay in higher property taxes.
Should it remain, in effect, over-flow space from Midtown that fills at the peak of the business cycle and empties as business activity compresses? This merely requires thing staying as they are, since this is Downtown's current role.
Should it be a place for entreprenuers and the U.S. offices of foreign companies occupied by expatriates? These folks tend to live in the city, not the suburbs, so the commuter rail isn't needed, but more amenities and links to JFK airport may be.
Unfortunately, the marketplace will decide Downtown's role in the future, while the public sector will have to make investments up front that may or may not pay off. And New York is so deep in debt already that its ability to invest is constrained.
Downtown buildings are now renting to second-tier tenants. It beats having an empty building but makes the area less desirable for first-tier tenants. Merrill Lynch and a few other companies with a large prescence downtown will determine the area's near-term future by their decisions whether to stay or relocate.
The Fulton transit center and the proposed commuter rail links alone will not make downtown more desirable. The implication of Pataki's and others downtown plans is that people just can't wait to work downtown again, and I don't think that's accurate.
Located on Church Street, the PATH terminal will open onto the large public square envisioned by Daniel Libeskind where cultural facilities, a new hotel and conference center and a major new office building will converge.
The terminal will become a new architectural icon for Lower Manhattan recognized around the world, doubling as an important civic space for exhibitions and events.
It will be equipped with longer platforms that can accommodate 10 PATH cars instead of eight –increasing PATH capacity by 25 percent.
It sounds like they are talking about, if not a complete relocation of the PATH terminal from its WTC/temporary site, at least a relocation of the inbound tube from New Jersey slightly further to the south, in order to allow for an additional 110 feet of platform.
The Church Street entrance could just mean entrance at Church, escallator downstairs and then walk west to the PATH platforms, or they may be considering building a completely new station closer to Church (though with Liebskind's sunken plaza design, I don't think they could use any of the former Hudson Terminal area, it would have to be a brand-new station at least a level or two beneath the former platforms, and 515 feet long).
I'll be interested in seeing more details on the actual proposal, since unlike the JFK rail link, the new PATH station has to be built when the entire project at Ground Zero begins.
So the results of the feasibility study are in? Will we be seeing a Scoping Document or Draft EIS soon from the PA on a PATH extension?
The Governor's discussion of the JFK link is a useful point of comparison. All he committed to was launching the environmental review next year, with no indication of when the link itself would be built. He had a specific date for the PATH extension to EWR.
I've submitted feedback through the PA's website. They are pretty good about replying. We'll see what they write.
Dear Mr. Bayside,
Thank you for your comments. They will be taken under advisement. Citizen input is always appreciated.
Very truly yours,
[a PA flunky]
Translation: Your (or anyone else's) comments have about as much impact on transit operations and planning as does a snowflake falling on the Siberian tundra.
Translation: Your (or anyone else's) comments have about as much impact on transit operations and planning as does a snowflake falling on the Siberian tundra.
That's how they might answer you, Peter, and I wonder if that goes both ways (ie how much respect would you be showing them? My guess is, not much).
But that's not what I get. My phone calls are returned; my letters get return letters that were written by somebody who gave the issue some thought. I've had three specific proposals adopted by MTA and was consulted during the AirTrain process by the PA several times.
You reap what you sow.
*by the way* The signs might not have this reading but then again, they could. A V train was sitting in the station, waiting to proceed into the underground layup tracks after 71 Av. I noticed that ALL the signs read...
B SHUTTLE
B TO 36 ST/BKLYN
But I will take a guess and say the northbound designation is read as...
R ATLANTIC AV
R PACIFIC ST
R SHUTTLE
(if anybody knows what the reading is, I'd like to know. Thanks in advance.)
5902 F
So here is my partial list
IRT Broadway/7th ave
191-1940s IRT imitation
181-"
168-"
157-"
145-"
137-"
116-"
110-"
103-"
96-1950 dark tan on light tan
86-1950 dark tan on light tan
79-"
66-1950 dark tan on light tan(covered)
59-1950 dark tan on light tan
50-1950 dark tan on light tan(covered)
33-1950 White on white?
28-1950 White on white
23-1950 White on white?
18-"?
Christopher-"?
Houston-"?
Canal-"?
Franklin-"?
Rector-1950 White on white
Park place-
Fulton-
Wall-
Clark-
All IRT BROOKLYN-
ALL IRT BRONX-
Lex/S.Park line
125-teal on white
116-"
110-"?(covered)
103-teal on white
96-
86-maroon on white
77-blue on white
68-blue on white
59-
51-
33-1940 IRT imitation
28-1940 IND imitation
23-"
astor-
Bleeker-SB 1940 IND imitation NB dark teal on light teal
Spring-"
Canal-1940 IND imitation
Here's President:
And Fulton 2/3:
I think the Boro Hall photo displays two different extensions. The "Borough Hall" mosaic on the left side of the photo looks different than the other original 1908 mosaics in that station. The tilework on the right is the result of the TA's el cheapo work of the 1960's.
The extensions at Fulton and President also are the result of slapdash extension work. To NYCT's credit, far better work is being done today. Brooklyn Bridge also had such cheap work before the excellent renovation of the mid 1990s.
Two examples on the west side are Chambers St and 59th St, but those don't bother me quite as much.
And just think, Canal and Astor used to look like that also before their renovations. Although they are not great either, the West Side lines mercifully got beige extensions as opposed to that hideous aqua tiles lower Lex got. The people that chose that must've really been drinkin' when they chose that, as it doesn't even try to match the original tiles.
By the 1950s, '60s and '70s, the subway was seen as strictly utilitarian. If a station provided space for a train to arrive, pick up/drop off passengers, and depart, it had done its job. Whether the station was attractive was beside the point. Of course, another problem was that the subway was suffering from decades of deferred maintenance, and many of the repairs were of necessity done as quickly and cheaply as possible. But for another example of this attitude, consider the demise of the original Penn Station, now widely recognized as a terrible mistake.
The pendulum has swung, and most of the station renovations of the last several years have respected the stations as grand public points of arrival. Some of them now qualify as works of art. Among these, I'd list 207th St on the A, the Museum of Natural History, Lincoln Center, and Astor Place. Some others, like Canal on the 1/9 or 42nd St on the A/C/E, are not quite works of art, but at least they've been redone in a style that's attractive, consistent, and respectful of the original design.
Thanks.
Red: 240th Street
Green: 239th Street
Blue: Livonia
Orange: Jerome
Black: E. 180th Street
Yellow: Pelham
Purple: Corona
The subject comes up in here from time to time.
David
Also...
Corona Redbirds... the sticker is either a purple diamond on yellow sticker or a purple diamond on black sticker. The Corona R62As have a purple sticker
Some R62As out of Livonia also have a orange diamond over the blue sticker.
---Choo Choo
After all, I can always take the Transit Museum rides in my wheelchair! LOL
---Choo Choo
LISTEN PEOPLE, if..................you..........see....................................a.....................post..........that....
looks...like..........................................this.............DON'T REPLY TO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In 2050.
Tho after having a PERFECT train pass me by one too many
times, next time I don't dare come near site without cam handy..
Tho it's even more ironic that when you DO have the cam handy
you tend to see more INTERESTING and CATCHY stuff than you do
on days when you are sans camera... atleast that's how I've had it.
Pig: It’s only the 24th. Isn’t this a little early to be working towards your monthly quota? I forgot, Dave’s 50-per-day limit…
John
Now it's all so BORING that I have to spice it up.
-Robert King
Maybe it is becaue I do not "look like a spiller"? ???
P.S. I only open the little flap just enough to sip, then use my thumb to latch it back down. Technically not an open container (disputable in court I suppose).
Looks like another sale for my adult diaper business.
Poor Pigs ! I think hit just hit bottom !!
Bill "Newkirk"
R68 #2511 - the "Captain Morgan". Now THERE'S a pirate for ya!
wayne
See, they were pirates! They hijacked the IRT!
:-) Andrew
:0)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the favorite subway line of pirates? The ARR Train!
Where do pirates got to buy toyz? Toys ARR Us!
That's almost as bad as that chicken crossing the railroad thing. A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion. Ow.
Noel, Noel...
Noel, Noel...
Honestly, it's better that it happened this year and the cash is allocated for next year. Why wait until MTA is really in the hole and has to put capital projects money in the operating budget (remember the 1970's?)
Methinks you're overdoing it a bit...
It's called good management, and a good economy -- that's why the fare didn't go up in NINE years...that must be close to a record for the longest period w/o a fare increase.
First of course was the nickel from 1904-48, which started earlier if you count the els.
I know the els originally had a 10¢ fare that went down to 5¢ during rush hours. When was it lowered to 5¢ at all times?
With the economy in the country, especially New York City, on the low-end of the business cycle, shall we say, a Republican Governor-appointed agency is asking the working poor and working middle class to pony-up 33% more for commuting costs at a time when those lucky enough to have jobs find their wages frozen and/or declining with respect to inflation. Truly, we should have had modest, incremental fare-increases over the past 9 years which would have avoided this drastic jump. Personally, I can afford the increase, and I'm hopeful that revenue will fund the necessary improvements to subway and bus service in the city. However, I am aware of the fact that many subway commuters are of lesser means than myself and such an increase may have a greater affect on their disposable income.
Also objectionable is Mr. Kalikow's attitude about the whole matter. It's the our-way-or-the-highway, blame politics, shoot the messenger m.o. How dare the public, or Comptroller Hevesi have the affrontery to question his management!
It's also a matter of priorities. Paturkey doesn't want any "job-killing taxes" for his suburban constituents, so his solution is to ask city residents with lower incomes to foot-the-bill for this government service, city transportation. (New York City being the primary economic engine for the state and the fact that the MTA is a state agency makes logical the use of state funds to run it.)
This is typical of his party. The U.S. economy could not be more in the doldrums, so Shrub's solution is more tax-cuts for the wealthy. Depending on which PhD you listen to, this may or may not help the economy by "creating jobs" (most economists say NOT), but the truth is that the first thing it will do is benefit the wealthiest among us. The rest of the 99% of us might benefit from some of the crumbs they toss out afterward. [Typical, Reagan-era, Jack Kemp, Supply-side, Trickle-down (Hey! We're pissing on you!) economics. Just give us our big cut first, and the Little People will benefit. We promise!!!]
Really, it's the arrogance. The attitude! I can't believe our leaders are getting away with this. Oh, yeah. It's faith-based....somehow?!
And it just keeps getting better. The NY Times today reported that the I.R.S. is implementing more stringent requirements for claiming low-income tax credit, making it harder for the poor to qualify. In the meantime, it is generally accepted that that agency would gain more revenue by going after the wealthiest tax-cheating (illegal) and tax-sheltering (legal, and most vehicles for this will remain-so as long as Mr. Hastert is in charge of the House of Representatives) individuals and corporations.
I don't think anybody objects to responsible tax-cutting or responsible revenue management at the MTA or responsible management of the federal deficit. My hope is that someone will be able to overcome the din of Republican name-calling and actually demonstrate how irresponsibly bungled Republicans are leaving our financial system. If George W. Bush were the C.E.O. of a private corporation, a role to which he likens himself regularly, the company would have been out-of-business long ago. Of course, he and his "board of directors" would have made out handsomely in the process.
Timing and Priorities, folks. The first Democrat who can effectively communicate that message might have a shot.
The effective fare for anyone who can scrape together $10 (formerly $15) at once has gone up 23%.
The fare for commuters who use the 30-day pass has gone up 11%.
The fare for commuters who use the 30-day express bus pass has gone up about 10%.
The fare for commuters who use the 7-day pass has gone up 24%.
The fare for commuters who use the Fun Pass has gone up 75%.
But how many commuters use the Fun Pass? I certainly do think the new Fun Pass is unreasonably expensive, but it's hardly a popular choice among commuters, and it's certainly not any commuter's everyday choice. (Some commuters might use pay-per-rides on most days and Fun Passes once in a while, but their overall effective fare increase is less than 33%.)
The poorest ones. The ones who cannot afford to invest $10.00 at one time for transportation. They are the ones who are told you can get a day's work if you go to a certain address in the Bronx tomorrow morning at 6:00 A.M. Just the fact that you have a computer and the time to post to this board indicates that you are not one of that group, but they do exist in New York City.
Tom
But I think that group is tiny. All it takes is a one-time investment of $10 to start saving 20%. Skip one movie. Make two meals from scratch instead of going to McDonald's or eating TV dinners. Take that $10 and bring it to the MVM instead. The investment is fully recovered after 15 round trips.
Correct, but note that if the MTA had tried to push through smaller increases over the past several years, people would have claimed that the increases were unnecessary because economic times were good. I know, that doesn't always follow, but there would have been a lot of complaints nonetheless.
The NY Times today reported that the I.R.S. is implementing more stringent requirements for claiming low-income tax credit, making it harder for the poor to qualify.
False claims for the Earned Income Tax Credit are legion. It's not uncommon for college students to claim to be single parents and file for the credit, even when they have no children.
Peter Rosa: It's not uncommon for college students to claim to be single parents and file for the credit, even when they have no children.
Keystone Pete: That's a different issue. Yes, breaking the law is breaking the law, but which liars do the most harm? If our goal is to increase tax revenue by ferretting-out cheats, there surely is more to be had by concentrating I.R.S. investigative and audit resources on those hiding the most income. The same laws are being broken. It's simply easier for the I.R.S. to nickle-and-dime the poor (or college students), since they don't have the resources to fight the I.R.S. by hiring expensive accountants and lawyers. This is both an unjust and an unwise policy. Unjust, because it protects wealthier taxpayers (and Republican donors and voters) at the expense of the poor, and unwise, because it misallocates tax law enforcement resources to areas of lesser overall return.
...which had nothing to do with Pataki himself. It was an advantage of new technology which any administrator would have implemented regardless of who appointed him. Fortunately, Metrocards and their flexibility (part of which was the elimination of two-fare zones), actually increased MTA farebox revenue. Elimination of two-fare zones, the use of one card for both initial payment and transfer and the creation of the unlimited ride pass actually attracted more riders by enhancing payment options. Even though many were paying less-per-ride, there were more of us.
Be grateful that at least one of them is from NYC. You don't want to know what would have happened if Silver had been from Niagra Falls.
In each of his three elections, Pataki won the State but didn't win the City. As a result, he's quite content to stick it to us city-folk.
Ummmm guys? I'm REALLY too WELL to WANT the job, but thanks just the same ... but everybody's gonna get laid. Heh.
13+ years with the state though, it ain't all THAT hard to figure out what the "end users" need - it's just that the lobbyists and the pigs at the trough want it ALL. Been there, done that, burned the T shirt. I have no interest in being a political handpuppet ANY more. :(
This guy is riding along (in a shiny new R143 temporarily diverted to another line) when he hears the announcement saying "MTA House Of Prostitution, next stop" so he thinks thats different, I'll have to go and see what it's like. So he gets off the train, goes up the stairs and right at the top of the stairs is a large building and rings the bell. The door is opened by a gorgeous customer service representative who says "Welcome to the MTA House of Prostitutes" and leads him down a long corridor. At the end she hands him over to another gorgeous customer service rep who leads him to a door. She tells him that the charge is $2.00 which he hands over and is then told to walk through the door.
He opens the door and steps through and finds himself back in the station in front of a small sign which reads....
"You've just been screwed, THANK YOU for riding MTA!"
This morning, I get to the Metro platform and see that the next train to Grosvenor is in 4 minutes, more than the usual 2-3. It also seems like no train has come through for quite some time since I had not seen any large numbers of people exiting the station. Sure enough, that is the case, since the PIMS soon displays "Delay: Red Line in the direction of Shady Grove." Well, I figure that I can still ride up front and make my bus since I want to be able to overhear the radio. The bus driver knows me very well and will probably wait, and I can always run for the bus.
Well the train comes. As it is most of the time, it is entirely Rohrs (I did see a train going to Silver Spring with the lead cars Breda and the last 4 cars Rohrs while waiting for my own train). The lead car was 1180 and was extremely crowded compared to usual. We go along at the normal speed and get to Bethesda, where the operator announces that the next stop is going to be Grosvenor. All the very happy people who are destined for Medical Center get off the train. I am sure this made their morning. First, they got a delayed train and now it was skipping their stop. One of these people was the person sitting at the railfan seats, so I moved into position for the ride to Grosvenor. I also get out my camera so I can make a movie of our passing through Medical Center.
We cruise along under Wisconsin Avenue and Rockville Pike and approach Medical Center. I start filming as we go past the interlocking and we enter the station without slowing down. But then we start to slow down several car lengths into the station. I can hear the operator hitting the button, trying to get the train to keep going without stopping. We end up stopping just after the first car entered the tunnel, wait briefly, and then keep going onward, so when I download the video from the camera, it will probably look more like a station overshoot. Speedy run as usual the rest of the way to Grosvenor, where the usual announcements are made that the train is going out of service. Half the Red Line trains only serve Silver Spring to Grosvenor and this one was one of them.
I get off the train and look down the platform. Since this was the first train to get through the delay, it was more crowded than your average Grosvenor bound train at this time of day. And, about 4 cars down, one of the people gets off the train, turns around, and kicks the side of the subway car. Needless to say, I am rather surprised. The train car didn't give in at all and probably is doing fine, I have to wonder how that guy's foot felt. As I walked towards the exit, I couldn't see the person who kicked the train but did see one WMATA staff member. My thinking is that this person was wanting to go to Medical Center and didn't hear the announcement though it was made very clearly. The other possibility is that he wanted to go to Shady Grove and was pissed because of the delay, but if he was a regular or semi-regular rider, he would have been well aware of the fact the last stop was going to be Grosvenor.
Another funny part to the morning: Some people who get on trains going inbound that start at Shady Grove and get on before Grosvenor can't get a seat, so they get off at Grosvenor to get on the train originating at Grosvenor and thus, are guarenteed a seat. Now, if any of them had common sense, they would have stayed on their Glenmont bound trains this morning since the PIMS said trains to Shady Grove were delayed and if there are no trains to Shady Grove and Grosvenor, that means there are no trains to be turned back to pick them up!
Other than the above, nothing noteworthy was seen today.
Once I punched on a train door window on a stalled train, had gotten very angry at a long delay on the Brighton bound train at Kings Hwy. Guess it was a bad day or something. The door window, uh, fell out into the empty train. I didn't think I had hit it that hard....
Not that I'm proud of it or anything.
I realize 'token booths' are being closed to save money, but how exactly does closing turnstiles in the overnight hours save money or make the 'token booth' attendant's job easier?
www.forgotten-ny.com
There's no one around to stop these things from happening.
-Stef
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_042403_MTAworkers.html
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_042303_mtafinal.html
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_042403_mta.html
Thats its on the MTA's latest scam, We're live from NY; I'm Express M, subtalk news!
Remember my post about the initials M.T.A. ?....More Trouble Ahead.
And how about 2 Broadway...... Money Thrown Away.
I didn't think those up, but they seem to fit, don't they ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Who else should do it? That is the way of the world in business. The customer pays the expenses.
Tom
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_042303_reactionstomta.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hevesi even conceded in an NY times article that the MTA decision to pay down the debt due over the next two years was wise
No one stole money
The reason such a high debt load is the problem. Too many station renovations that cost too much because they were poorly supervised.
The board did testify and was grilled in front of the city concil over the budget. It goes to show you that none of the political hacks on the city concil bothered to read the budget. All they did was yell at Kalikow to not raise the fare and not to close any booths.
should the MTA present the budget quarterally in the same manner it layed out the fare raise options.
Maybe. But even if they did, if noone is listening what's the sense. In a city where people buy things they can't afford on layaway(basically a interest free loan to you local store) do you really expect one to understand that if you spend all the money now on operations and leave a large debt hanging over yout head, the equivilent to paying the minimum on your credit card that next year youe will owe alot more
At that time the only solution to plug the gap is to raise the fare a greater amount or cut services back greatly
The MTA did the right thing
The MTA did the right thing..."
Gotta agree with you. It's hard but, yeah, the moneys' gotta come from somewhere. As an outsider it is hard to understand how so much money taken in daily isn't enough to cover expenses. Roughly, let's say the MTA city transit has, oh, three million discreet fares tendered. I'm figuring total subway/bus ridership is higher but there's plenty of transferring going on. So I'll figure 3M. Let's say minus discounting on MetroCards that equals to four million dollars taken in daily. Just for arguments sake.
Wow. There sure must be some large expenses there if a weekly income of about 25 million dollars comes up short. I mean, how many businesses take in that much cash everyday? Coke? GM? IBM? Damn, as I said, not being much familiar with high finance like that, it amazes me. I still understand the need for more money flowing though.
In short, if there is a financial scandal at the MTA, the Comptroller did not find it. Again: read the report.
David
The scandal isn't that (having borrowed to the hilt) the MTA used the proceeds from a bond refinancing to reduce their debt. The scandal is that the MTA ran up its debt so high to begin with, kept down the fare, denied there was a budget deficit, and then revealed one RIGHT AFTER the 2002 elections. Criticizing the MTA for doing something right is bringing it down to Pataki's level.
The REAL numbers are total ONGOING revenues -- fares, dedicated taxes, state aid we are likely to receive -- Vs. total expenditures, operating and capital. There the MTA has been in the hole for years, and debt has been going up.
I don't care what the accountants and comptrollers say. If your signal systems, subway cars, and train stations wear out after 50 years, then you need to replace one out of 50 of them EVERY year. This should be paid for with CURRENT REVENUES on an ONGOING BASIS. Instead, they have borrowed to the hilt. This decision wasn't made at MTA headquarters, it was made in Albany.
As for the other real scandal is 2 Broadway. We wuz robbed, but no one has figured out was in charge on our end. It wasn't the Capital Program, which moved in but did not direct construction. We don't know if it was an inside job, or simply a matter of being taken to the cleaners. We'll have to say. My general rule is in government, never assume corruption when incompetence is an equally plausible explanation. Except for Pataki, Bruno and Silver. They know EXACTLY what they are doing.
Sure the politicos are grandstanding - it's their *JOB* ... as long as there's clueless reporters who DON'T study the rules, politicos will forver spin and twirl. But there ARE flames under the smoke, let's see how this gets dealt with. Should be amusing. Not.
I personally witnessed the widespread "I'll scratch yours if you pull on mine" in government service - I've seen corruption face up. When I complained about it, nobody cared and all I got for my efforts was unfavorable personnel reviews. And so it goes ...
It is the lack of grandstanding that cost Hevesi the democratic Mayororial promary
It is a shame that the public is so stupid as to believe everything the media says.
Yes they were playing a bit of 3-card monty, but the point about the "two sets of book" was the most insignificant offense. On could argue that since the $600 million interest savings came from a capitol expense item it should be used to pay down other capitol expense
Do matter what you do the public is not going to uderstand the intricacies of govenment accounting and one timer's used to close budget's end up costing the public more in the long run. Raising the fare a small amount now was the prudent thing to do. In effect the average rider who purcahces a monthly unlimited is paying an addtional $0.35 per buisiness day or $0.17.5 cents per trip
They are even more stupid than that. If the public had believed the media, Bloomberg and Pataki would have seen their popularity decline long before now, and that of the state legislature would be at rock bottom. Give the media credit. For two years they have been saying 1) s__t is going to happen and 2) the State of New York is to blame. They hadn't said those things in the past.
Instead, the public didn't bother to pay attention until the s__t actually began to happen. And then it is too late. The percentage of New Yorkers who said they approved of Pataki a year ago but not now are IDIOTS. The 40 percent who say they do not know who Bruno and Silver are are worse.
Anyone who DIDN'T pay the politicos off ... the public be damned. Oh wait, wasn't that the IRT motto? Heh.
????
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm not that old! And I've been a member of Amran Temple, A.A.O.N.M.S. (Raleigh, NC) since 1983.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last I looked, the guys with the fezes are still on our side. They are not due to be liberated until after France and Canada. :-)
Tom
You know, cash accounting may be "simplistic," and not correspond to every aspect of economic theory (amortizing assets, etc) but it is also impossible to fudge. All this other stuff can be manipulated so easily, aways with the goal of dumping liabilities on those in the future while absonding with the assets.
You know what they are doing in the private sector now, when they analyze corporations? Following the "cash"! Forget "earnings," "assets," "liabilities" and the like. How much cash was collected in revenues, and how much went out in expenses. That's it!
Unless you have a totally new facility intended to serve a growing population or economy, everything else is ongoing normal replacement. If you don't fund it with ongoing revenues, you are either running up a debt on operating costs or going to deferred maintenance. HERE WE GO AGAIN.
Just kidding, but they've gotta bury a lack of a budget somehow. NEXT week, the legislature's finally going to ante up a budget. And Paturkey's already promised to shoot it down. Current "formula" is no budget at all, state goes bankrupt next Wednesday and there will be *NO* paychecks for the employees. Includes MTA. :(
Of course, they'll pull the lever by Wednesday, but should be MOST interesting to see what shows up under that pea shell in the middle that was just selected as the winner. Is there a pea? But there's ONE thing we can all count on - the porcine will ALWAYS find the queen.
You are absolutly correct!!! The operating income - expense number is the fgure you need to look at when tdetermining if a fare hike should be enacted. Hevesi and Thomson found nothing
Hevesi as city comptroler released some fine audits that found that the city could save money by changing the way it purchaces items, manages payroll etc. He was ignored by the media and lost the primary for mayor. He learned his leason and is now grnadstanding. The politiciansknow the local media except for may be the times never actually looks at the fact and reports the sensational headlines and they tale advantage of it.
It is a crying shame. It is why NYC with it's big tax pot of gold from wall street is in the sorry shape it is in. We import the poor, give them enough food to stay alive. Instead of educating the poor and less fortunit. Working on the emotional problems those who lost hope sometimes develope and move them up into the mainstream of society. Instead the media and politicians who have an interest in keeping them poor and ignorant feed them lies and half truths. Some of the things you hear on the street just baffles your mind
Black men who succeed in coorporate america are sellouts? My college room mate was called an Oreo because he was a good student. He is now a assitant VP at a major bank. The guy was no nerd either. He was a 6' 5'' 250 pound lineman who enjoyed hip hop as I do
Your ideas are not very realistic. Take subway cars as an example. Buying one or two a year would make them much more expensive than buying a fleet at one time. And if you have a fleet with a fifty year life, are you suggesting retiring some of them after only one year, and some of them after only two years of operation?
The theory of financing capital projects is that it would be unfair to today's taxpayers to make them pay all the cost of a subway system or bridge or whatever that people will be using for fifty years into the future. With bonds, the people using the items in the future will be paying for its construction. Every day maintenance should be paid for from current earnings, but when it comes to replacement of subway cars, signals, or other capital equipment which again have a long life, the same reasoning applies as with the original project. Future generations will be the ones getting the benefits so it is fair that they be the ones to help pay for it rather than those generating the current revenues(which are paying for earlier capital projects).
Tom
We have 6,000 cars at various points in their lifecycle. I propose buying 120 per year, in multi-year contracts. That's pretty much what happens now, except that the money is borrowed. Then the MTA is deep in debt and you get a period like 1990 to 2000 when you get no new cars.
I believe that regular buying would cut costs, as companies wouldn't have to gear up for a big order with nothing afterwards. And by paying cash, you save the interest.
The MTA had a $3.2 billion hole in their capital plan in 1999. The fare SHOULD have gone up THEN as soon as the shortfall was pointed out. Instead, people fooled around and played games until no choice was left. These holes did not magically appear and now, the MTA took all the guts out of the fare hike. The result is what the fare hike should have looked like in 2000, not now. There will be another one in 2005, too.
The are many problems with your suggestion. The biggest one is that all the politicains are always going to want to raid the lock box to give raises to the union work force who pays for there re-election.
They killed the MTA for useing the bond refinacing savings to pay down the debt. An action which was both prudent and wise. Hevesi even agreed with it in a NY Times Quote. The politicains are always going to want to spend the money on services that will help there short term political gains. They would ahve killed the MTA for raising the fare when they had money set aside no matter it's noble purpose
The secound it is far cheaper to borrow at the low rates the MTA can issue devt at to buy items suc as subway cars that will result in a return on investment. In addition buy putting money aside, it is harder to go begging for funding from the feds.
Using debt to fiance less important uses such as station art at every station is not a good use. The example my dad(a banker) always told me is that it is good to use debt to finace and project or capitol purchace that would reduce costs or is needed to run your business.
The comptroler's were blowing smoke because made a big political stink in march that they were going to audit the MTA's books. What they found was some sloppy record keeping, the different MTA divisions are not unified on one accounting system and that the MTA created multiple 2-year budgets to evaluate what if senarios. Sounds like an agency that has plenty of warts but did some due diligence in trying to close the expanding HUGE budget gap in the next two years that is the result of inflation in labor contracts, higher fuel costs but mainly that debt the spent rappidly rebuilding the transit infrastructure is coming due
They took the $600 million saved from the bond refinacing(similar to refincing you home mortgage at a lower rate) and used it to pay down it's Mountain of debt that it would have had to may next year early saving so additional money.
All of a sudden after ignoring his responcibility to oversee the books of state agencies Hevesi decided to take advantage of the fact that some people are angry that the fare is going up for political advantage
#3 West End Jeff
Lets take todays Bilked MTA of $1M as an example
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/78273p-72136c.html
"A corrupt union official admitted yesterday that he pocketed more than $1 million by ripping off the MTA for work at its new downtown headquarters.
Downey hired elevator operators to work off the books for lower wages than Local 1 members, while billing the MTA at incredibly high rates," said Daniel Alonso, chief of the Brooklyn U.S. attorney's criminal division."
This is a top 5 scam that happans over and over again. When I worked for DOI we would see this same isssue 5 to 10 times a year. The only way we found out about it was someone on site who felt wronged ratting out the contractor.
The UNIONS in cohhoots with organize crime bill out the property owner at union wages(which are too high to begin with) and hire non union workers at half the price or simply don't fill the job at all which = A no show job.
This is easily preventable with proper supervision. The problem is who is supervising the MTA supervisors.
The solution is to require all workers on a particular project for a contractor or subcontractor to be background checked and aproved to work on govenment projects. Carry a smart-card ID with picture on site at all times. The MTA needs to periodically check to see that the proper people are working the proper jobs.
The mta supervisor needs to carry a GPS based tracking system to ensure that he is indead on site and doing his job. Timely reports and id swipes of workers on the job should be done periodically. The Supervisiors should be informed that random checks from the IG office will be used to verify that all is well.
If this sounds expensive and overkill, it is penuts as compared to what the MTA looses each year on fraud. It would piss me off to no end how easy it is to commmitt no show job fraud
Once again the union harm there members for there own bennifits. The construction union wants the hourly wage high so that they can make a nice profit hiring non-union laborors often for as little as $75 a day to work in a job it is billing the property owner $40 hour
This all gets passed on to use taxpayers in the form of higher rents, taxes and fewer jobs because it cost more to out uo new office space in the city
The MTA would be better off hiring more of it's own construction trades people, do fewer projects at once. It would be fare easier to track and monitor the projects. I rather a little extra and insure that the money goes into the pockets of the wroking fella rather then save a little and the money go into Tony Sopronn's pockets.
Outdated practices
Insistant in hiring outside contractors who are known for playing constant games
Not disqualifying contractors with past poor performance. And not even checking NYC vendex system to see if the contractors are on the excluded list
The are hundreds of construction fraud cases out there. The industry is just so corrupt. The construction unions and are in bed with many contractors.
It is so bad that even honest contractors get mixed up because unless they play ball they don't get any of the subcontractor work they need to say in business
The MTA should bring more of it's projects in house. Even if it needs to pay the over inflated union wage structure. At least if it puts proper controls and monitoring in effect, it will be easier to stop some of the game playing
I investigated construction contract fraud for years. It is very hard to prevent without many levels of checks and ballances, preferably technology based solutions which are harder to cheat
I can guess based on the fact that there was a pay fast ferry service from the 69th street peer in Bay Ridge that did quite well. I believe it was $5 a ride. There is a polulation who works long hours and would pay a premium for fast farry service. If this service would restart it could make a stop in Red Hook making the area more attreactive to residents who work
I though I pass this on to you guys.
Robert
Also I am not obscessed with sex, I am married for five years with a great woman. I still can look and appreciate a good looking woman and still not thinks about jupming her bones. You know As the saying goes "I might be 30, but I know in the grave yet."
Robert(Playboy T/O)
Just kidden.
Robert
* I hope my wife don't see this!!!
But a good looking T/O is just as transit related as Mis Subways, and may result in several Subtalk field trips to investigate the SIRT. :-)
Tom
Robert
Who said anything about sex? Maybe some of us lonely single guys with rail interests are looking for wives and families and would love to find a nice single T/O to marry. Anyone see if she's wearing a ring? Or do I have to take a ride on the SIRR to find out for myself? I was planning to do it anyway one Sunday morning, but now I may want to move that ride forward on my calendar. Of course, if I had the kind of luck to be on the right train, I probably wouldn't be having to write this message...
There's no law against a friendly approach to an attractive T/O at the end of her run. Offer a rose through the cab window, and tell her she's got a lovely smile.
That's what's different about us, I don't keep my comments to myself, and I won't. I don't think people should go their entire life acting obnoxiously without being told about it, it's a disservice.
Sometimes it's just best to leave Unca Selkirk out of some bright ideas ya know.
Expect QTraindash7 to be there tomorrow.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would you prefer a Hooter's uniform ?
Bill "Newkirk"
A good point (but I now realized I made a mistake in ther letter B/C the D line ran over the Culver line in 1956) is that it would've serviced all 3 baseball parks, Yankee, Polo Grounds and Ebbits field.
LONG LIVE THE D LINE ON THE BRIGHTON LINE.
We may have been "outsiders" as of 1967, but to me, the D *made* the Brighton line for a Bronx boy, and it made a magical fit to Brooklyn's finest line. Granted, I don't live in the city anymore and thus what works is OK by me, but as far as I'm concerned, the D will always be the shiny Brighton Express. I just don't associate with Bensonhurst.
Now, if Ebbets field was still around in 1968, then the D could have served it ...
-- Ed Sachs
Snider threw righthanded, though.
BTW who was your favorite Italian player? I'll bet it was Carl Furillo.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=128101&category=REGION&newsdate=4/24/2003
Albany Times Union - NO subscription games to read it required ...
Speed will be limited to 110 until the line can be brought up to FRA Class 7? standards.
Amtrak is keeping a protect engine/cars on stanby whenever the Turbo is running.
I've been in it while it was laid up in the yards, it's VERY nice.
How long before some defect is found (like what happened with the acelas) ? We need some virtual poker chips so we can start betting on this sort of thing.
Still while CSXT was planning on running trains through the site early today, SEPTA had no estimate on service restoration for the R-3 Line.
http://www.subway.com/subwayroot/MenuNutrition/Menu/menu_classics.aspx
They have a BMT sandwich. :)
I think you're referring to White Castle sliders.:)
:-)
www.forgotten-ny.com
An IRT or IND sandwich would just confuse things even more, though I guess to promote the BMT, they could tell customers to beat a PATH to Subway...
Peace,
ANDEE
If you're on a diet, you might want to have the Lo/V.
HiV - don't even bother to count?
Peace,
ANDEE
ITALIAN
ROAST BEEF
TOMATO sandwich
While the BMT is a nice start they need more real Subway related items. IRT and IND sandwitches would be the next logical setp and you shouldn't be allowed to buy an IND/BMT sandwitch together with n IRT sandwitch in the same order unless you eat them at the Queensboro Counter.
Sorry man, Subway is NOT kosher... (he he)
Wholesale & Warehouse Workers Union
Local 65 - C.I.O
13 Astor Pl. N.Y.C
The photo comes from the Robert F. Wagner Labor Archives, NYU, District 65/UAW Archives
Amazing that people could think that a 5 cent fare was reasonable as late as 1948.
Nice going, Dave.
Dave, maybe you could take that one out and put in one of a Redbird in service?
I like the image Dave. It provides closure. Keep it on the site.
Robert
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
*****THIS***** is depressing. Chopped, cut, and left to ROT ... :(
THANK GOD FOR BRANFORD AND SEASHORE!
I'm sure the TA would NEVER let me on the property again, but must admit it'd be nice to take a crawl up the Brighton with enough cars in tow to make using a butt plug worth doing. Heh.
Gee, the IND supporting the IRT, or maybe the IND squirming in under the IRT, either way some pretty good sylmbolism.
I think that the R1-9s had their ends cut off so that they were IRT length(just a guess)
Responses
And for those redbird fans.....
3 R33s,1 R15 and 1 R14
Perhaps I may be in the minority, and with the site being "NYCSUBWAY"--could you perhaps mix in some pics of other systems? Perhaps, one from DC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, and perhaps a west coast system like BART or LA---and if you really want to mix it up, throw in an Atlanta or Baltimore (Metro--not light rail)
Anyhow, just a thought.
Mark
Dave does have sections for other cities systems.
You're absolutely right---that's why I worded the statement the way I did---I just thought it would be an interesting way to mix up the banner ads a little more---I'm not complaining though, the main emphasis SHOULD be on NYC with the other systems as secondary subjects. Whoe knows, maybe there will be a site called DC Metro Resources someday, hehe. There you go Oren---it's all yours.
Mark
With the combined knowledge, materiel, and resources of the many WMATA geeks such an endeavor is quite possible.
I have the web server space. All we lack is a domain name.
John
1. The chaining code for the IND Crosstown line
2. The modern line on which most of the phaze II R32s run
3. The zero pt. for the IND Liberty ave line(K), BMT franklin ave line(O), and the BMT myrtle line(M), is BMT____
4. this line went from 179th to Rockaway Park, express before 1973
5. The letter left out of the IRT Beverley Rd station
6. the line which most often uses tracks AB1 and AB2 during GOs.
7. The first stainless steel car:
A-R11 B-BMT Triplex C-BMT Green Hornet D-R32 E-BMT Zephyr F-BMT Silverliner
8. Which BMT car # series did not have any of its cars converted top a C or Q type?(in this question Each number, and the 49 cars sequentially following it make up the "series",)
A-50 B-1200 C-1450 D-1250 E-1100 F-1450
9. Which car could not be considered a convertable in its original form
A-1006 B-1287 C-1111 D-1367 E-1261 F-1099
10. Which car does not, or did not have axiflow fans at one point in its lifetime
A- R127 EP007 B- R33 9310 C-R1 103 D-R40 4167 E-R38 4142 F-R21 7075
11. Which car was never a Revenue/Pay/Money car
A- 1939 R8A#67 B- 1957 R21/22 0r721 C-1903 IRT Gibbs 3342 D-1908 BMT Gondola 998 E- 1969 R39 #1909 F- 1878 ME car 41/G
12. the number of mineola
A-3624 B-3434 C-3288 D-6061 E-3344 F-7531
13. This Irt car had no center door
A-3223 B-3674 C-4198 D-4356 E-5302 F-4714
14. 1108 was/is not a:
A- BMT 1000 convertable B- R46 C- R6-3 D-1888 ME motor E-R110 F-R142
15. this company's "standard" car design did NOT run on the culver shuttle
A- BMT B-IND C-IRT D-SIR E-none F-ALL
this should be easy
That's all I know, sorry!!
wayne
Now why I didn't think about that?
As we all know, the original IRT line was designed not only to be a transportation breakthrough but as a work of art as well. That's why August Belmont had a separate budget for station design and beautification. On the London Underground, stations have been rehabilitated and station names have been changed over the years. However, unlike NYCT, Underground management not only does not remove the older mosaics, it does not even cover them up. Many stations whose names have been changed still display old station names prominently, and in their original positions. This ensures the continuity of the flow of the stations' history and gives riders a sense of perspective of how the station - and the area above it - has changed over the years. (I note that closed stations on the Underground that are visible from passing trains also have their station names in view. I suppose the Underground either never experienced the graffiti scourge that destroyed the mosaics at 18th, 91st and Worth, or never allowed it to ruin their mosaics.)
We should be doing the same thing in New York. Sure, change is inevitable and stations, sometimes, must be radically altered to further a construction project that will ultimately provide the public with better transit options. For example, at Lex/14th, Transit installed a new computerized control room on the local platform on the downtown side, so the "14" mosaics had to be removed and placed elsewhere. But in my opinion, where mosaics can be rehabilitated and left where they are, they should not be moved just for the sake of moving, especially if its not replaced with something of equal esthetic value. That's what happened at Times Square. There was just no reason for Transit to rip that mosaic out of the wall and replace it with plain white tile. I feel that it was a disservice to those of us who appreciate the historic aspects of the original IRT line, especially with the 100th anniversary approaching.
Considering that no one has seen those "14" mosaics for decades since the local platforms were blocked off, had the TA just disposed of them rather than placing them "artistically" on the mezzanine, no one would have known the difference.
How about the mosaics on the local platforms at Brooklyn Bridge? They are all still in place even though the platforms have been blocked from public view for decades.
Do I agree that the Times Square name tablet should have remained in place on the shuttle platform? Yes. But at least they kept in in the station.
"This ensures the continuity of the flow of the stations' history and gives riders a sense of perspective of how the station - and the area above it - has changed over the years. "
Most NYC Subway riders would not care one bit about the history of the station or the area above it. They are more interested in getting to they want to get to.
You have to give the TA a lot of credit for moving away from the "modernization" phase that caused the BMT Broadway/4th Av stations to be covered in "refrigerator" tile or the red tiles at 49th. The rehabs on the Broadway line stations have been looking quite good. If you didn't know they were rehabbed you would swear it was the original tilework.
Canal Street isn't the original tile and mosaic work but it was done with the orginal work in mind and IMO came out excellent.
I also give the TA high marks for the "Arts in Transit" program in which new artwork is added to many stations when they are rehabbed.
I don't profess to understand a lot of the works installed but the idea is in the spirit of the original construction and gives the rider more than just plan, ordinary tiles (even if they don't look at it).
I take it you've seen some of the hilarious stuff they put up at 28th & Broadway. I haven't a clue as to wot it is either.
wayne
I wonder why they chose to cover the refrigerator tile at the Canal N/R station instead of removing the refrigerator tile and restoring the original mosaics like they did at all the other Broadway stations. I have to agree, they did a great job at Canal, but THIS is what we are missing:
I feel they should have redone the bridge (Q/W) platforms like they did (because the original mosaics say "Broadway" instead of "Canal" there anyway), but they should have restored the original mosaics at the N/R platforms.
Thankfully, the eagles are still clean and proud at the Brooklyn Bridge local platform. However, what good is it if no one can see and enjoy them? I'm glad they brought the ones up from Union Square.
Not always true. Imagine the confusion if they hadn't covered up the original station name at Embankment on the Bakerloo and Northern Lines. Embankment used to be called Charing Cross. The next station North on both the Bakerloo and Northern Lines is now called Charing Cross, but used to be called Trafalgar Square on the Bakerloo Line and Strand on the Northern Line. Because of the Northern Line then having a Strand station, the completely unconnected Strand station on the Piccadilly line was at a very early stage renamed Aldwych. Confused yet? Sometimes replacing the tiles is a good idea!
In a way it would be better if Embankment were still called Charing Cross. It is about as close to Charing X station as the current Charing X (Trafalgar Sq/Strand), but also has District/Circle Line service. It would avoid people unfamiliar with the area doing one of the two dumbest routes on the Underground - District to Embankment then Bakerloo to Charing X, only to walk back halfway to Embankment for the main line station.
OK, since no one else has taken the bait, I will. :-) What's the other route?
Actually that's only bad if you walk to/from Monument (District/Circle). All the other lines (ie the ones where the station is actually called Bank) are quite an easy transfer.
For instance Circle line to W&C.
You'd do much better going to Embankment and getting on the Northern Line.
What's the other route?
Leicester Square to Covent Garden, even especially if you are transferring from the Northern Line. In fact, most routes involving Covent Garden are dumb. Covent Garden is extremely busy, is situated in a deep tube and the only exit is by lift (elevator) or a very long spiral staircase. It is also only 0.26km from Leicester Sq. It is literally quicker to walk. If you are on the Bakerloo Line, it is probably quicker to walk from Trafalgar Sq Charing X.
Incidentally, Leicester Sq to Covent Gdn is the most frequently used route by tourists.
1) Pete Kalikow was in charge of the NY Post after he "bought it" from Rupert Murdoch. Within years of the 1988 purchase, the Post went bankrupt, and guess where most of the money went. (Intrestingly enough, currently, Murdoch is hoping to buy a satellite company, which currently is against FCC regulations. He is trying to pursuade the government to allow him to aquire the company. Hence, fox news is "fair (to us) and balanced (in our favor)". Murdoch was also against FCC regs when he built up FOX. Apparently, you cannot have TV and print news in the same market. Thats why he sold it to Kalikow, and re-purchased it after the Post went bankrupt in 1992.
2) Does anyone know Peter Kalikow's REAL buisness? You guessed it. Construction. Guess which contracting firm is handling the debaucle at 123 Broadway? The good news is that with all this extra money (surplus+ fare hike+ low wages) the second avenue subway will be built, thanks to one certain construction company.
3) There were two security guards who worked for Kalikow and his righthand man, someone named Nasty (idk first name). When these two found out about PK and Nasty stealing, they were suspended, and blamed for all this trouble.
4) AN anicdote: Alfonse D'amato (Pothole AL) was seen IN the offices of Peter Kalikow when he was with the Post. Also, when Murdoch re-aquired the Post, he said to PK "I assumed you'd take something, but not EVERYTHING!"
~TRK
Your facts are way off.
When kalikow bought the post to gain control of the real estate for which the post main building was siting on in lower manhattan. It was more valuable then the paper. The newspaper business in this city is very competitive and not always profitable.
As for your other aligations. Do you have any FACTs to support them
Kalikows company had nothing to do with 2 broadway. The project was under way prior to kalikow becoming chairman
stop spreading half truths
The funny part of the whole comtrollers reports is that they found very little. If the comptrollers office was looking for anything other then a political gain the report would have not even been released.
Take a look at the Board of ed for instace, There was far greater deception and trickery going on when Thomson was head of the Board of Ed.
Not only were kinds not learning anything but construction fraud an waste was rampant
For example the district offices are bassed in schools taking over entire floors. The BOE decided to lease buildings, bring them up to school codes and move children in.
It would have been far cheaper to move the district offices into private buildings then moving schools.
Two separate construction authorities assigned to do the same task. Bloomberg layed off 200 duplicate workers who fought over what shape the doorknobs should be trippling the cost ofd buiding schools in the city
What the MTA did was wrong but is very comon in other areas of govenment especially in the BOE for which Thomson was the head of the BOE for years
You may be guilty of slander in the last three allegations, unless you show the PROFF. Remember, anything you say on this board is in public domain for ANYONE who can read your messages.
That is why this MTA board should be commeded for trying to close unneeded token booths and reorganize the MTA.
The booth oposition was generated by the TWU who spead money around to the straphangers campaign and the local elected officials who are also looking for political endorsements from the union while holding the riding public hostage
As long as the MTA does not lay any S/A off to close any booths the only entitiy that bennifits by keeping them open is the TWU that does not want to loose the Union dues
Or, of course, it could be industrial trackage somewhere else in the City.
Me, my first choice is definitely 1689, (an R-9) the car of my childhood. However, I wouldn't mind trying R-17 6688 or PCC's 1001 or 27. However 1689 is always my top choice.
---Choo Choo
8-) ~ Sparky
I would assume 6688 will be out, weather permitting.
-Stef
---Choo Choo
What a busy weekend for the professional rainfanner!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As they say "IT'S ALL GOOD", now aren't you going to be late for your R33WF-Flushing line tour?
This he did again this year. I think everyone who wanted to operate a car got to, maybe not their first choice, but their 2nd or 3rd. I know my family all got a trip each (two daughters, grandson & probably future son-in-law). I asked to operate #3152, but he said there wasn't enough snow on the line (it's a snow plow)
Mrs. Sparky also was in the Shack with him to make sure everyone got their lunch tickets. It was a very wet day, but with all the staff that pitched in, each in their own way, we all had a good time.
SEE YA TOMMORRROW!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will also try to make it for Peggy's tour on Sunday, but it's questionable at this point.
8-) ~ Sparky
Rain will NOT stop me this time, if I decide on Sunday that I need to do something else, then so be it, I sleep a bit longer on Sunday. But it's nice to attend BOTH.
Sorry folks! Nothing I normally do will apply to Branford, just a fun time is expected.
We've did this dance before ... prove me wrong.
Remember, your not yawking at a "Left Coaster" about the Sea Beach,
so hopefully you will "Brighton" my day, by attending. I've gotta
a 50% chance to be right or wrong. Will he or won't he, tommorow
will tell all? So stop the GD of ME. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Every day is a "BRIGHTON" day, just let me be real about this.
Like that beleaguers me. Hell, if I want to know what the latest is
on SubTalk, I can go to the Sprauge Building and log on. I going to have a jolly good time, by showing others the fun of operating a streetcar. Or talk up a storm with other members. Or whatever, got
no time for Sub Talk on Members Day, can wait till Monday. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter the Pole
Member's Day is a "Rain ~or~ Shine" event. So let's all hope for
the best "weather wise" for tomorrow. I'll be there, so will Mrs.
Sparky, anyone ordered the lunch, will have to be nice to her, she's
the person to see for your "Lunch" Ticket. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
See you in the morning.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We will be along about 0815, with Big Lou & Dee in tow at the "Pines". Expect another SubTalker to join us for Breakfast.
BTW, what vehicle you using tommorow? Didn't hear a peep from "Peter The Pole". >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Stef
The average member signs in with the dispatcher & indicates his/her preference amoung the operating fleet. The rt fleet will run a few times, but there will also be a number of trolleys that only occasionaly come out that a lot of members want to operate, e.g. Union Railway #316 from 1895 will be full every time she goes out.
The weather looks bad in the AM (this will keep 6688 & Hi-V inside until it clears), also 1001 is in the middle of a restore the last time I saw her (all in primer, no windows, etc.) PCC 27 should be out.
My daughter had the BMTman pilot her on ConnCo #775 & loved it.
Me, I'm going to see if 3152 is on the list, it's a plow
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Note: This will be my only post for today, being I'm on a relative's PC. Won't be able to respond after this post. Sorry guys.
Jimmy
Steve Loitsch
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And let's appoint "CC Local" as the chair of the new MTA Executive Committee!
Rah! Rah! Rah! Phim Toom Bah!
The straphangers campaign are a bunch of hacks that are influenced by large union handouts. They are not working in the best intererst of subway and bus riders.
Yes TWU members a large portion of your union dues goes to campaign contributions and contributions to the straphangers campaign.
But to the strappies' credit, Gene Russianoff responded very favorably to the proposed MannyB service changes in 2004. It at least shows that they don't automatically respond negatively to everything the MTA proposes. Some of their surveys provide an important public service.
1)reducing service whether warrented or not
2)Any reducution in overall union workforce. They recieve major funding from the TWU thus want to protect jobs over improving effeciency even if it improves service. This includes tooken booth closings, shorter train with less crews etc. They also are heavily involved with the local democratic club which is in bed with the unions for the bennifit of the union leaders and those running for political office. Those who get screwed are the union workers and the subway riders
I spoke for over a half hour Gene Russianoff a few months back. He is a sensible guy. He lied to me tell ing me he had to go to meetings. When I was persistant he began to talk. He talks out both sides of his mouth.
He game out and said he is not interested in any effeciency improvements he goal is to get more subsidies from the state and city. PERIOD. His words
To be fair to the unions, politicians and conservative think tanks talk about actual productivity gains (as they would be defined by an economist) and reductions in employee pay and benefits per hour as if they were the same thing.
Not that reductions in pay and benefits are never justified -- public employees have unfairly short working lives before drawing a pension, compared with the private workers who fund them, and sick leave is abused in public service too. But public employees believe that "productivity" means less for them not because they are ignorant, but because that's what they've been told.
Exactly my point. The unions feed there employees false information, make them angry and pull the fast one for the unions own bennifit.
Productivity enhancements means less overall workers and less union due for the union heads to through around. One productivity improvement that means more money for the individual union memeber is OPTO and Articulated bus bonus pay. Instead of resiting OPTO the union should be working in the best interest of ther employees to ensure OPTO is deployed in a manner that is fair to the trian operator. Such a system would be in cab flat panel monitors to ruduce the work involved in untilizing OPTO
Would you know how to do it? At least they bothered, if nothing else.
I guess Vlad/Slant/SeVeN Was right in the end that I will accused and flame and verbally attacked for no reason or maybe the reason was that I’m a friend of Vlad/Slant/SeVeN.
Anyway Good-bye.
And you wont be hearing form me anymore.
Vlad R32
(I did railfan the L recently. You *can* see out the front, but it's obviously a lot harder than on the older trains.)
yup... that is how I picture the operation of the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway. Four monitors visible to the T/O either on the right or on the left, depeding on which side has the platform (As a reminder as to which side to open~ although that doesn't really matter, since the COMPUTER already *knows* which side the platform is on.)
The monitors divid the train into quarters from back to front. The operator's control, looking like a small gear-shift leaver, closes the train from the rear by quarters at each indent, coresponding to the monitors that the operator can see. When the last (front) quarter is closed, control of the train returns to the computer, and the train leaves the station.
Now then the only concerns are that the monitors and the cameras are not vandalized. The monitors are a good ten to fifteen feet beyond the end of the platforms, and are not within reach of anybody on the platform or on the roadbed. The camers will need to be up out of reach probably a good 15 feet from the ground, so that some jerk with a long stick will not be able to whack or spray them.
If any station has monitors or cameras that cannot be used, then the station is either taken out of service (trains do not stop.) or else platform conductors will have to be used until repairs are made.
Elias
Alternatively, of course, the monitors *might* be in the cab with the motorman, and the cameras *could* even be mounted directly on the cars.
Inside of each door there is a gate consisting of about five metal rods about a half inch in diameter and about a foot apart. The rods of course extend in unison with the doors, and are never seen until someone holds a door, and the rods continue thier journey. Those rods that are blocked will not close but the others will close and lock. The door leaf (and any blocked rods) can recycle but access to the car is blocked by the locked rods.
Someone *could* put their whole body against a door stopping all of the rods from locking, but someone grabbing a leaf by hand or briefcase will not stop the gates from closing out whoever he was trying to hold the door for.
He can then give up and let go, or wait for the police officer to remove him from the train and charge him with intervering with the operation of the railroad. If the country is still at war, then Michael Savage can take him to Federal court and charge him with Sabotage, take him out back and shoot him! : )
Elias
Another possibility is to have a sort of "air lock" system on the platform. A rider would not be able to run off the stairs and directly onto the train; he'd have to pass through a set of doors (maybe an electronic iron maiden?) on the platform first. Those doors would lock closed as the train enters the station and only those riders already in the inner area could board. As soon as the train doors were fully closed, the platform doors would unlock and riders could enter the platform area for the next train. This, of course, might not work if the platform were too small. I like the "bars in the doors" idea too though.
What you describe is a system the Paris Metro used to have when they had ticket choppers at the station platforms. You could not enter the platform after a train entered the station until it closed up and was pulling out of the station. I have been told by those who have been to Paris more recently than I that they no longer have that system.
Tom
That's one of my favorite films! Now I have to see it again.
I could be wrong, but I always thought that was what had restricted the use of OPTO on the NYCTA. Anyone out there know otherwise?
There is a huge blindspot on trains and it also makes it easier with passengers when you have to go down to the roadbed.
Is it just me or has automatic door technology for about the last 20 or so years had the ability to NOT trap and drag people. Elevators, PATCO trains, SEPTA BSS and MFL trains, any other OPTO or ZPTO rail system have NEVER ever had dragging problems barring the highly improbable freak accident caused by some sort of bizzare technical failure.
Why can't the MTA either UPGRADE their current draging doors or at least buy modern doors on their new "modern" cars.
I have gotten stuck in the doors on an MFL car, luckily I was getting on at 8th and Market, it got the luggage tag on my bag and I couldn't move any further into the car until 11th st. I'm just damn lucky that it wasn't the other way around, getting stuck while getting out would be far worse.
I'm pretty sure it's an MTA decision, not anything handed down from the FTA or something, but could be wrong on that.
The technology suggested by my previous post on this thread demonstrates how a single T/O on the head end *could* safely run the whole train and its doors by himself. However, it is an all new subway, not connecting with existing routes, with all new stations, all new trains, all new technology, and could have a new set of work rules.
It has been a long time since elevators had an operator, and we seldom hear of any horror stories of pregnant women together with their babies being dragged through the walls and shafts of a building by an errant elevator door.
But of course that is not a fair comparison: elevators do not carry 2000 people, nor to they have 40 doors to watch. Passenger safety *is* worth the salary of an extra employee per train to assure greater safety. And the Transverse cab, like it or not, provides greater safety to the crews that operate these trains.
At least you *can* watch the ROW from inside most cars through special (and costly) windows, windows that need not have been provided in the first place. Methinks that the TA has done the best that they could have done for you in this regard, and rather than bitch, you should give them thanks. Encourage them to keep up the practice on future orders.
Elias
Those little fucks have put some sort of shit all over the window that makes it virtually useless purely for SPITE. The MTBA, SEPTA BSS and DC Metro units are a far better compromise. The MTA's contempt for their riders is almost paupable.
Anyway, CCTV is a FAR safer and FAR more effective system than a second positoon mod-train. CCTV is like having 5-6 conductors all up and down the platform.
There's no way I could say that any better.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I wouldn't go quite that far-- a window can be useful for, say, a rescue worker trying to see who is trapped *inside* a disabled or derailed car, especially if opening the doors is not possible for whatever reason. It could also be useful for seeing if a T/O is disabled or injured and needs assistance. But I agree that railfanning is a secondary consideration in train design. I just feel a lot better if the train is at a dead stop and I can look out the front window to see the train ahead of me. Then I know that the train is stopped for my own good. Otherwise I rashly assume that the T/O has stopped the train just for sport and I get unjustly annoyed. :)
Because 99.9% of the world's subways uses traverse cabs and this is the NYCT's small step towards arriving in the last half of the 20th century. It'll be a couple of more decades before they are completely in the 21st C.
Which has shown to add about 20 seconds to each station stop. CCTV is the future where the T/O never had to leave his seat or stick his head out the window. SEPTA and PATCO both know this and both are known for their propensity to cut costs everywhere.
Eventually traverse cabs will be gone when ZPTO is more common. Until then, we are living in the era of traverse cabs. Corner cabs are obsolete.
Even with transverse cabs, you can still at least have a front window on the left side, and a clear panel at the back of that side of the cab, and/or the door, like in Atlanta. That still allows you to see out.
I haven't seen the new NYC trains (it's been too long since I've had a chance to ride the subways there, alas), but I assume they don't even have that kind of setup, from what I've been reading here.
The R-62/R-62A cab is the exception. The window into the cab is clear, but it's very small, and on at least some cars there's a coathook directly above the window which many T/O's use. A few R-44's also have clear, round peepholes.
On my last trip to Cleveland a couple of years ago, I stood at first behind the luggage rack and peered through it for the view. This is okay for eyeballing, if there's no luggage there, but not so good for picture-taking. Then the T/O noticed me and waved me around in front of the luggage rack, so I got a good view for the rest of the trip. It made sense operationally, because all the stations have center platforms, so she didn't need to use that side of the cab.
NYCT's R-62 and R-62A has convertible cabs. As delivered, all cars were single units with railfan windows. When most of the cars were rearranged into five-car sets, the cabs at either end were unfolded, and now the only R-62A railfan windows are on the 3 (only on some trains) and the 7 (every train at the Manhattan end only).
And now that I think of it, so does Miami, which uses basically the same trains.
Los Angeles has a similar layout, but the whole front end is closed off as a transverse cab at the front and back of the train (OPTO operation), but configured as a 1/3 width cab in the non-operating positions to allow two more passenger seats.
Tom
Maybe subway cars should be equipped with a camera on the lead car connected to CCTV monitors in every car. Then everyone on the train can be a railfan! It would certainly make for interesting discussions among the passengers. I can imaging a bunch of New Yorkers debating why a particular signal had turned red, or why a station is congested ahead, and so on.
So that several hundred people at one time could suffer the psychological trauma of an 12-9 rather than just the T/O and one or two people at the rail fan window? :-(
Tom
But London didn't have railfan windows even before it was OPTO. I think there is another reason. Most systems couple their cars permanently into units of three, four or more cars, so that most cars have no driver's cabs at all (a cab with all its control equipment is expensive, after all, if you're never going to use it!). At the ends of units a transverse cab is o.k. because no-one ever needs to pass through. But if all cars have cabs, you have to have half-cabs, so that passengers can pass through the train. Transverse cabs are the norm; half cabs are the exception. They also give the T/O a cramped and claustrophobic working envirnment.
Okay, this is old news. Seems like everyone's all hunky dory about the prospect of One Person Train Operation. Well, I still think it sucks. Let the train operator worry only about safely operating the train. Why put extra stain on the most important component of that entity we call "a rush hour subway train"?
And I feel the function of allowing ingress and egress is worthy of having another human overseeing it. Humans ain't machines. Fatigue is a real danger with passenger railroading. We want these boys to be sharp, don't we? To put extra strain on these people is to be penny wise and pound foolish.
I don't like it, not at all.
Any help is ALWAYS appreciated by me. Thanks!
Lunch will run an additional $15 if you plan to partake of the delicious spread our caterer serves up every year... George indicated that there should be a couple of extra tickets available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Members Day is for "Members" & Guests. So if you show up and ask
for "Sparky", I'll have to admit to your existense. Be there, you
can be my guest ... hell, you couldn't outdo, a member of SERY & BERA,
for whom I was considered his mentor, couple seasons ago.
Members in the know, it I say "Parallel", you know of whom I speak.
So cut the cheet, if your there your there, if not, ain't no lose.
That goes for all fair weather attendees also. It's more fun in the Sun, but whatcha gonna do, if the Sun doesn't shine.
Hell, blame Todd G., he'll be instructing newbees in the rain in Maine. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
At first I thought it was a vehicular tunnel, but then I spotted the rail at the bottom of the photo.
I've never seen this tunnel. Any clues?
I have a few guesses about this one:
1) One of the built portions of the 2nd Avenue Subway (except there is track installed in the photo and I don't think rail was ever laid in the SAS portions built in the '70s);
2) Chrystie Street connector linking BMT Broadway line and the IND 6th Avenue line.
If those are wrong, I'm stumped. I do see broken third rail near the bottom of the photo, suggesting that the track was once used but is not anymore. However, the sandbags on the roadbed and the temporary lighting on the walls suggests renovation is taking place.
Any ideas?
Don't mess with THOSE furry pets, you don't want to get sea Beach Fred upset.
I ain't sayin' nuffin more than that..
Webshots photos here
Bill, the engineer, emailed me last week that he and Ed would be the crew this week. Both Bill and Ed are members of the West Jersey Chapter - NRHS (as are Jersey Mike and I), and each of them had previously invited me for a cab ride; Bill when he was with the Southern RR of NJ, and Ed a year ago on the Penn Jersey.
Folks enjoy company as long as nobody does anything stupid.
Is she in as good a shape as she appears to be ?
Due to the train being reported ten minutes late, dwell time at stations were kept to a minimum. This included 30th Street, a traditional layover spot. Speed was excellent through Trenton- no stops at New Brunswick or Princeton Junction. It felt faster than 90 through the traditional drag strip between those two stops. The local SEPTA R7 stops into Center City and R2 stops out were barely visible- hardly surprising, considering many of them are concrete slabs.
While it's clear when you enter Delaware (the Bay becomes visible on the left and the large pedestrian bridge over I-95 from the Claymont Station on the right), it's not certain when you enter Maryland. Elkton nicely put its name and state on a water tower next to the tracks to verify. The only really rural stretch of the trip lasts for about fifteen minutes in northern Maryland.
The ROW appears to enter Baltimore through one of its crummier looking neighborhoods, with plenty of gutted rowhouses. Not a lot of the city is seen, thanks to several long tunnels on both sides of the station- whose brick structure looked very weathered. Suburban sprawl prevailed the rest of the way to DC. We passed numerous MARC single and double-decker consists, and then several WMATA Red Line trains after New Carrollton. The huge yard leading into Union Station was a veritable smorgasbord of MARC, VRE and Amtrak cars.
Since our train was running through into Virginia, it discharged on the lower level to continue through the tunnel under downtown. This meant we and our luggage had to disembark down four very steep steps onto low-level platforms. Amtrak personnel offered some assistance. Union Station looked very complex and confusing with multiple levels, stairways and escalators. My wife convinced me it would better to cab it to our hotel than start messing with an unfamiliar subway system.
We stayed at the Radisson Barcello, a block off Dupont Circle. Very nice neighborhood, similar to the Village but with fancier restaurants (at least four Starbucks) and many more townhouses than high-rises. As a subtalker by this neighborhood's handle indicated, there was a very good bagel store across the street from the hotel. During an evening constitutional, I checked out the Metro station and fare control system and was amazed how cavernous the entrances are and how deep an escalator ride is required. It was then that I realized I would need a LOT of dimes and nickels.
The three full days, we always started on the Red Line at Dupont, usually changing to another line at Metro Center or Gallery. Notable were: the flashing lights on platform edge to inform of an arriving train; the huge, pitted station ceilings; the similarity of the door chimes to those of the R44s through 68s; very fast acceleration; carpeting and padded cushion seats; the fact that we're told in advance which side the doors will open on. Trains were quite crowded, and it took quite a while for people to get on and off. The Breda cars seem smaller than anything in NYC. Mostly 2X2 seating contibuted to the crampedness, and it took a while to adjust to the bars you hold onto being on the CEILING rather than over the seats. Patterns on the ceiling yielded an amusing illusion at transfer stations Metro Center, L'Enfant and Gallery whereby the lines appear to intersect perpendicularly at grade. It was interesting to be able to clearly see the top of a train arrive on the level directly below you.
We dined Tuesday night at Pentagon Centre so we could say we went to Virginia. The mall was dazzling, almost as much as the Yellow Line crossing the Potomac on a bridge. I was disappointed to see it immediately go back underground in a Manhattan Bridge-type arrangement. The following night I rode the Blue line, only to find it goes under the Potomac. At least it came out briefly at the Cemetery.
I was allowed to go out by myself in mid-afternoon while the wife and son crashed at the hotel. Covered the Red Line from end to end, the Green from Fort Totten to Greenbelt and the Yellow to Huntington. Highlights were:
-The unusual Red-Green junction at Totten, with the Red platform elevated above the Green platform, which sat in an open cut between two tunnels.
-The panaromic view from the Yellow of National Airport, downtown Alexandria (huge church visible at King Street station) and an unbroken corridor of high-rise office complexes. At the Blue-Yellow split, there are additional track structures forming a triangle junction directly between the two respective outer terminals. I'm guessing there's a yard for both lines near Franconia-Springfield, because there was nothing at Huntington, whose terminal station seemed to be built into a gorge.
-Running alongside MARC and VRE trackage on various lines, occasionally seeing some of their equipment. VRE cars have an interesting blue-swirly 'oceanic' looking paint job. The Red Line actually runs through Rockville BETWEEN the two MARC tracks- the opposite of PATH/NJT through Harrison.
-The huge Red Line viaduct over Rhode Island Avenue, which also towers over a very wide ROW that only had one track on it, but looked as if it must've had four or five at one time.
The Maryland suburbs are heavy on big office high-rise complexes around the stations (especially at Silver Spring), low-rise apartment tracts and large, attractive parks. All the outdoor suburban stations, and many of the outer DC ones seemed to have dedicated- i.e. off-street bus lanes and stops with large shelters, maps and schedules. Large parking garages were also present in most cases.
The only slightly bad area I saw was on the Red Line from Union Station through Fort Totten. For all I know, there may have been others. Some say the Green Line to Branch Avenue goes through some rough neighborhoods. But I didn't have time to check.
It was strange how some lines alternated between tunnel and el rather frequently. I sure didn't expect the Red Line to run underground all the way from Forest Glen to Glenmont after coming outside right after Union Square. The Green Line stretch I rode switched back and forth a bit as well. Time constraints kept me from riding the Orange either direction, but I'm willing to bet it runs mostly outside to Vienna.
The fare card system drove us nuts. It didn't make sense to get the $5 all-day unlimited, so we kept having to get the right change. At least the machines are a little more lenient about slightly wrinkled dollar bills than your average soda machine. The wooden paddles seem to stay open long enough to sneak through behind someone else. A couple times, lacking dime or nickels, I paid $1.25 for a card, then tried to upgrade it upon exiting so I could get a round trip but couldn't make the toggle switches on the machine get to 95 cents or put in a dollar to get a nickel change- well, let's just say I had to request assistance from the very polite and patient station attendants more than once. One asked what part of New York I was from!!
People were very polite in general. There were no arguments over personal space despite some very crowded rush-hour trains. The policy of using your card to exit the system seems to have led to a cottage industry of beggars and hustlers hanging out INSIDE the fare control grubbing money so they can get out. There were quite a bit of homeless, but the entire system was very clean. Only once did I see newspaper left on a seat or an empty bottle rolling on the floor.
Oh yeah- we did the Capital, Washington Monument, Air & Space, American History (four hours!!), old Post Office, the White House (from a huge distance), Aquarium and dined in Georgetown, the one place the Metro doesn't go. (I wonder if the obviously wealthy inhabitants of that community used NIMBYism to that effect.) To get to G-town, we had to take a ridiculously small bus- the D2, I think- that looked more like an airport shuttle or Access-a-Ride than a city bus.
Today, we took the unreserved 10:10 back home. We were allowed in the Business Class car, which had huge legroom between seats. It stayed nicely uncrowded till Baltimore, when people finally caught on you didn't need a special ticket.
At Penn, we just missed the 1:51 Port Wash train to Broadway and had to get the 2:19 to Auburndale. (We live closer to Flushing Main, but did not wish to negotiate packed Main Street sidewalks with all our luggage- and didn't want to get off at decrepit, huge-gapped Murray Hall at all.) Not sure if all cars would platform at Auburndale, I asked a conductor who said he had to ask another conductor. They both spoke about something else and then left without answering me. A passenger told me we were OK. It was then I knew we were home.
My wife wonders if anybody's going to read all this. So do I.
P.S: They sure must LOVE Reagan in DC to name an airport and an office complex after a guy who's not quite dead yet.
In Los Angeles, the Tom Bradley International Terminal at the airport (LAX) is named after a former mayor (Imet him once) who isn't dead.
As is Generalissimo Franco (for long time SNL fans). :-)
Tom
Wasn't there some discussion of naming something after Giuliani recently? Perhaps even transit related. I can't recall.
Apparently the rule must be that you've got to be dead to have something named after you -- unless you're an ex-president or mayor of a major US city.
CG
While it's clear when you enter Delaware (the Bay becomes visible on the left and the large pedestrian bridge over I-95 from the Claymont Station on the right), it's not certain when you enter Maryland. Elkton nicely put its name and state on a water tower next to the tracks to verify.
Elkton virtually is the border.
We passed numerous MARC single and double-decker consists, and then several WMATA Red Line trains after New Carrollton. The huge yard leading into Union Station was a veritable smorgasbord of MARC, VRE and Amtrak cars.
The Orange line stops at New Carrollton. The Orange Line is in the Amtrak ROW up until Cheverly. You join the Red Line right near the Ivy City Yard where the New York Avenue station is being built.
Since our train was running through into Virginia, it discharged on the lower level to continue through the tunnel under downtown. This meant we and our luggage had to disembark down four very steep steps onto low-level platforms. Amtrak personnel offered some assistance. Union Station looked very complex and confusing with multiple levels, stairways and escalators. My wife convinced me it would better to cab it to our hotel than start messing with an unfamiliar subway system.
Union Station is not that complicated if you are trying to use it for transit. The fact that there are all the shops and restautants can be intimidating for the stranger, I guess.
the fact that we're told in advance which side the doors will open on.
Operators have always told you which side the doors would open on when you arrived. Only recently have they made announcements like "Next station is Tenleytown-AU. Doors open left side" as they left the station before
Trains were quite crowded, and it took quite a while for people to get on and off.
WMATA is not New York, that is all I can say...
The Breda cars seem smaller than anything in NYC. Mostly 2X2 seating contibuted to the crampedness, and it took a while to adjust to the bars you hold onto being on the CEILING rather than over the seats.
Did you only ride the Bredas (2000s, 3000s, and 4000s) during your trip? The Rohrs and CAFs have the exact same exterior design and almost identical interior layouts.
The following night I rode the Blue line, only to find it goes under the Potomac. At least it came out briefly at the Cemetery.
WMATA wanted to build a bridge, like the one the Yellow line uses to cross the Potomac. But, since the bridge would have gone over Theodore Roosevelt Island, the Park Service shot down the idea.
-The unusual Red-Green junction at Totten, with the Red platform elevated above the Green platform, which sat in an open cut between two tunnels.
Half the Green line platform is actually underground, it is the only station where the platform is both above and below ground.
-The panaromic view from the Yellow of National Airport, downtown Alexandria (huge church visible at King Street station) and an unbroken corridor of high-rise office complexes. At the Blue-Yellow split, there are additional track structures forming a triangle junction directly between the two respective outer terminals. I'm guessing there's a yard for both lines near Franconia-Springfield, because there was nothing at Huntington, whose terminal station seemed to be built into a gorge.
Firstly, thank you for using the official name for the institution (National Airport). The building you saw at King Street is not a church, it is the George Washington Memorial Masonic Temple. There is a yard to the west of the wye at King Street which opened long before Van Dorn Street (and Franconia-Springfield) was built.
Running alongside MARC and VRE trackage on various lines, occasionally seeing some of their equipment. VRE cars have an interesting blue-swirly 'oceanic' looking paint job. The Red Line actually runs through Rockville BETWEEN the two MARC tracks- the opposite of PATH/NJT through Harrison.
The VRE cars you saw are Sounder cars which are on a lease from Sounder Pacific transit )or some agency like that) somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. The Red Line runs between the two CSX tracks (MARC does operate on them) from south of Brookland to just past Silver Spring. It runs along the same tracks on the Shady Grove side after Twinbrook but not between them.
Time constraints kept me from riding the Orange either direction, but I'm willing to bet it runs mostly outside to Vienna.
It runs above ground from west of Ballston to Vienna.
The fare card system drove us nuts. It didn't make sense to get the $5 all-day unlimited, so we kept having to get the right change.
No you didn't. The farecards are just like the NYC MetroCards and you could have put as much money as you needed and kept using them until they ran out. I have a SmarTrip card and load it up quite a bit, I won't have to go to the machine again for weeks. It seems to me you wasted quite a bit of time at the farecard machines.
The wooden paddles seem to stay open long enough to sneak through behind someone else.
They are plastic and if you try to go through with two people, it makes a noise. Sometimes will go off if you have a suitcase or a stroller.
A couple times, lacking dime or nickels, I paid $1.25 for a card, then tried to upgrade it upon exiting so I could get a round trip but couldn't make the toggle switches on the machine get to 95 cents or put in a dollar to get a nickel change- well, let's just say I had to request assistance from the very polite and patient station attendants more than once. One asked what part of New York I was from!!
The machines inside fare control are only there so you can add money to the card to get out if it doesn't have the right amount. They are not for you to add money to your card.
To get to G-town, we had to take a ridiculously small bus- the D2, I think- that looked more like an airport shuttle or Access-a-Ride than a city bus.
That was an Orion II on the D2 and it is a transit bus. It runs on the low volume routes.
My wife wonders if anybody's going to read all this. So do I.
Well now you know someone did.
P.S: They sure must LOVE Reagan in DC to name an airport and an office complex after a guy who's not quite dead yet.
We do not love Reagan here in DC. Bob Barr (R-Ga) loves Reagan which explains why we have all these buildings named after him. I believe Rob from Atlanta lived in Barr's district and I understand he isn't the most liked person down there.
Philip Hom
Living in Virginia since Jun 1993
The best way (the one I use) to attempt to see when you enter MD is by the I-95 bridge over the tracks. Virtually, once you cross it, you are in Maryland.
A minor nitpick... the proper title is the George Washington Masonic Memorial. It contains many exhibits, including some furniture from the lodge room of the lodge which George Washington served as Master during part of his tenure as President and the trowel used in laying the cornerstone of the Capitol. Additional exibits focus on the history of Freemasonry and some of its appendant bodies. It is well worth a visit if you are in the area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On another sidenote, along the L line near Sutter Ave is a little "house of worship" (for lack of a better term). Some of us had to laugh, as it has a brickwork Star of David on top, and a sign "La Synagoga" or something written on it....I guess it's a former synagogue that has found a new use as some sort of "church or temple".
But I really would like to know if anyone knows anything about the huge abandoned cathedral near Myrtle-Broadway.
I don't know anything about this particular building, but it's quite possible that it is a Sephardic congregation... sinagoga or synagoga is the Ladino word for synagogue. Or it could have been converted to an entirely non-religious use where the business name is simply evocative of its former usage.
Anybody have the straight scoop on this one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
It's common for synagogues to be converted into churches after there's no longer a Jewish population in the neighborhood. Go to the Lower East Side or drive along the Grand Concourse and you'll see plenty of them. In particular, a lot of Concourse temples were built in the same art-deco style as the apartment buildings lining it. In many instances, a stained-glass Star of David is still visible above the entrance- if it hasn't been replaced by a crucifix. If you look closely, you might still see outlines of removed Hebrew letters or the English name of the temple embedded in the brick or concrete.
ME: My error- that WAS the Orange Line at New Carrollton.
"Trains were quite crowded, and it took quite a while for people to get on and off.
WMATA is not New York, that is all I can say..."
ME: That's true. The small size of the cars seemed to result in more time required to detrain. But there was very little grumbling, pushing or shoving and quite a few "Excuse me"s. I can't say that's SOUTHERN hospitality, because I heard very few Southern accents. DC natives seem to have the same Mid-Atlantic accent as heard in Philly, South Jersey and 'Bawlmer'. Maybe when you get deeper south into Virginia, it becomes "y'awl".
"The Breda cars seem smaller than anything in NYC. Mostly 2X2 seating contibuted to the crampedness, and it took a while to adjust to the bars you hold onto being on the CEILING rather than over the seats.
Did you only ride the Bredas (2000s, 3000s, and 4000s) during your trip? The Rohrs and CAFs have the exact same exterior design and almost identical interior layouts."
ME: After awhile, I assumed ALL WMATA cars had the same orange/yellow/brown seating color scheme till I rode the Green Line. The cars were numbered in the 5000s and had seats of blue and green. The stainless steel on the exterior was a bit glossier than I'd been accustomed to. But every single Red Line train we rode- by far the most- were Bredas. ALL cars, regardless of manufacturer, had the same high-pitched buzzing sound when accelerating.
"The fare card system drove us nuts. It didn't make sense to get the $5 all-day unlimited, so we kept having to get the right change.
No you didn't. The farecards are just like the NYC MetroCards and you could have put as much money as you needed and kept using them until they ran out. I have a SmarTrip card and load it up quite a bit, I won't have to go to the machine again for weeks. It seems to me you wasted quite a bit of time at the farecard machines."
ME: Sure did waste a lot of time at the machines. I had this irrational fear of being stuck with a card with fifteen cents on it. We also never were sure how much we'd be riding a train on a given day, so I didn't want to commit to more than one fare at a time.
"The machines inside fare control are only there so you can add money to the card to get out if it doesn't have the right amount. They are not for you to add money to your card."
ME: I had to do just that when we went to Pentagon City in the rush hour and found that the peak fare was $1.35.
"To get to G-town, we had to take a ridiculously small bus- the D2, I think- that looked more like an airport shuttle or Access-a-Ride than a city bus.
That was an Orion II on the D2 and it is a transit bus. It runs on the low volume routes."
It wasn't low volume when WE rode it. We had to stand both ways, even when returning from G-town around 8:30 Wednesday night. Every single other route we saw had regular, full-sized Orions.
Thank you for all your insightful responses.
A few years ago, Metro decided to go to smaller buses for low ridership routes to cut down on operating expenses, i.e. no need for a 40 foot bus when a skateboard will do. LOL
They also use these smaller buses on N6 (Friendship Hts-Farragut Square), D4 (Union Station - Ivy City) and D8 (Union Station - Washington Hospital Center). This ISN'T a complete list of routes for these smaller buses.)
Michael
Washington, DC
The interior colors on the CAF cars are Potomac Blue, Colonial Burgandy, and Chesapeake Sand. Each color represents a jurisdiction Metro serves.
You are a railfan. What harm is there in being stuck with a farecard of any value?
What lines did you get the Rohrs (1000 Series) on? They are hardly ever on Green or Yellow, so I'm a little surprised to hear you never got one on Red.
Also, I have never had a need to ride the D2 but it is susposed to be a low-volume route.
I read it :-)
Phil Hom
CG
Hope the family enjoyed the visit. Glad you could do some railfanning on your own.
As to Baltimore, the Amtrak line does pass through some of Baltimore's run-down sections, both before the Union Tunnels and after the B&P Tunnel. Some of the areas are better than they look, some keep the cops busy.
As you leave Pennsylvania Station (yes, that's the name of Batimore's station on the Corridor), you can see the Baltimore Streetcar Musuem's carhouse on the right just as the train enters the B&P Tunnel.
Next time you come down this way, you gotta visit Baltimore's Inner Harbor and BSM. Here is the link to our website, see what we're about.
Baltimore Streetcar Museum
It looks like they've added some new cars to the Regional Rail since I last rode that in January '00. We saw them on the R2 and R7 from Amtrak. Nice blue-and-red color scheme. The local stations (or what I could see of them when we flew past) didn't look any better than I remember. The exception was Cornwells Heights, which has direct access from I-95 and limited Amtrak service. Is there a whole lot of industry around, a la Metropark, that justifies Amtrak service? Or are they just trying to make the line more attractive for Bucks County residents?
Here in South Carolina we've got tons of stuff named after Strom Thurmond, who's still more alive than Reagan is. There's even a statue of him on the statehouse grounds in Columbia.
So we settled for Bagels Etc, which was more expensive than your typical NY bagel store- but great muffins. The last morning we ate at The Lincoln, across 10th Street from Ford's Theatre. That offered more hearty breakfast fare, but it felt weird to order it, pay and then pick it up on plastic trays fast-food style. We had planned to have a good ol' diner breakfast yesterday, but it was Greek Easter.
F Train
Any Ideas of which R series trains these are?
When did you take these clips?
They're really good. I enjoyed listening to them. The conductors on both trains were very succinct. They're not normal conductors I meet when I ride the Subway.
so if they are both R46's, then do the R46's have different chimes on different car numbers?
You'll find more coherent chimes on R68's for example. And car numbers do not matter on the maintenance of the car; it only denotes it for reference.
In that case, the top link is a World Trade Center-bound R46 E and the bottom link is mentioned in my previous post.
Could you refer me to the site that you received these clips from?
Peace,
Nick
Unbelievable to be in the losing end of 27 K's in 2 games, a new major league record for most whiffs in a doubleheader.
Yeah, maybe that would be a good idea. When he left the Red Sox for the Angels, the Red Sox made the ALCS. When he left the Angels for the Mets, the Angels won the World Series for the first time in their 41-year history (which the Boston Red Sox call beginner's luck!).
-Nick
Forget using the word colorful ever again. Once the Redbirds are replaced on the 7, it won't be colorful at all. The 4, B and D are already all stainless-steel.
Out here in California, unfortunately, it seems to be just the opposite as the LA fans are the biggest dunces in the country.
BTW did you see what happened at The Toilet Bowl today? Mo Vaughn aka Butterfingers dropped a lob toss from Tom Glavine. Can you believe that? The Mets dropped both games of a twin bill. Same old Mets.
You got that right! I'm glad the Giants evicted the Yankees, because a beautiful stadium in the South Bronx was built for the Giants owner and fans to look at while they stayed in their dump. Even though the Giants beat the Yankees in the 1921 and 1922 World Series, the Giants knew how good the Bombers would be in the near future. Starting in 1923, the first year in Yankee Stadium, Th Yankees won their first of 26 championships. :-) -Nick
--Mark
Just a sampling, you can find more here.
I like that photo of the 7 train. I almost said, "Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds," just by looking at it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It seems to me that originally the plan was to have fare controls in the mezzanine and the escalators would empty right out into the street. This is evidenced by the fact that the escalators come out in a concrete box, and the fare controls are in a glass and metal extension in front of it.
Anyone agree?
Thats my two cents,
R32 - Sea Beach Express
The one mismatched R42 is also on the N this week...
Here's one for you: If the Sea Beach stations were spic and span - it wouldn't really be New York would it?? I kind of like having a little graffiti and a little chipped paint in the stations...that's what NY is about...the stations function - that's all that's important...who looks at the stations anyway...I look at the trees, the houses, the sky, the moonlight, the stars...there's much more to Sea Beach - I guess you paid too much attention to the stations and not the important stuff...
Now, does anyone what to comment on the stations on the JMZ & L lines? ...I just drove by on my way to Evergreen cemetary to visit my grandparents...now those stations are scary and depict death and decay...
By the way, thanks to all of you who wrote back to me when I spilled my guts as to why I loved Sea Beach so much...it was a very tough 2001 & 2002 for me...it was a tough time for Sea Beach as well...anyway, thanks everyone - I can't express the gratitude I felt when I found out that people cared and actually read my post...thanks again.
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
The Sea Beach line is a hidden gem.
Also what was the consist of the last R21,R22,R26,R28,R29,R33ML trains?
R-21 and R-22s were mixed into everything and if memory serves stayed that way to the end in early 1988. They never joined the graffiti-free fleet so I think the last trips were also on the 5, mixed with Mainline GE R-33s.
R-26/28/29s were mixed together as Redbirds from Day One to Day Last. The last 26/28 was on October 7 and the last R-29 on October 24 of 2002. Again, these were off the 5.
The last Mainline R-33 is still debatable. So far, it was one train on the 4 line this past Sunday, April 20, 2003. The consist is not known as yet.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
also, if you're a NYD ERA member, subscribers to the Bulletin have been given the opportunity, thanks to Ray Crapo (according to NYD fliers), to purchase old editions of it ... they're up to volumes 7 & 8 if memory serves me correctly and they're working backwards back to Volume I.
--Mark
Credit Where Credit's Due Department: That's Ray BERGER, not Ray Crapo (Ray Crapo has made contributions to the hobby in other ways, including posting on this site). Ray Berger's publication sales have not only helped our members and subscribers see what they've missed, they've also provided needed funds to the New York Division that help keep our membership/subscribership fee reasonable at $35 a year.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
And thanks to you, et al, and Ray Berger, I am very close to getting a full set myself. Keep 'em coming!
--Mark
Dave: Which ones are you looking for? I have a complete set.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just wanted to spend some time browsing, taking notes, gathering data.
Dave: E-Mail me @ RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Larry, RedbirdR33
PS The ERA usually offers one year at a time of the bulletins from the 1970's and 1980's for about $25-30 a year. The ERA can give you the exact figures. IMHO they are well worth it.
They are currently offering ones from the late '50s - early '60s, IIRC. Don't recall the price but I think it was under $40.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
--Mark
Even if they're not in a library, I'm glad to learn about my other options. Thanks!
#3 West End Jeff
The R-17 spent there last few months on the #5. The very last train was composed of cars 6620-6614-6550-6681-6579-6618-6624-6623-6619-6626. It ran as a Lexington Avenue Express leaving Flatbush Avenue at 8:06PM.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Steve: I always liked the R-17's. I remember when they were cleaned up for the World's Fair and sent over to the Flushing Line to pitch-hit for the not yet delivered R-33 Singles. They were the only clean subway cars on the system for several years in the mid 80's. IT was nice that they spent there last few months on the mainline.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Not according to my memory. R17's suffered the same fate as all other R types on the IRT. True, the redbird R17's like 6688 finished their careers with fine style, but others fell to graffiti, especialy those painted white.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If you look through the motorman's cab window, you can see part of that blue interior.
This was taken in 1982 and it stayed like this until a fleet of redbird, yes redbird R17s came of the "7" train sometime around 1986 or 1987 and replaced them.
(Beat Street scene on rooftop adjacent to Fresh Pond Yard by Ramo's pal)
Several of these cars were converted to work service and were finally scrapped in 1992.
-Stef
(*Myrtle/Bway to Broad, Canal to Whitehall, Canal to DeKalb, Montague Tunnel, DeKalb to 95th, 59th to Ft Ham Pkwy/Sea Beach, possibly more)
Anyway, while on the Slow Beach, I noticed some things:
1)The stations are in terrible condition! As someone else said, they look like they used to look beautiful, but they're all dilapidated now, with huge cracks in the concrete, peeling paint and plaster, chipped concrete, and many holes in the staircases (if you fall in at 8th it's a long drop to the SBK underpass!).
2)Graffitti and trash all over the place (where're VAKTRAK and the garbage train when you need them?).
3)They didn't really do a good job of destroying the third track, there's still third rail for a two-stop stretch north of Kings Highway, and it's powering a signal (oddly green).
4)After our train got away from the slow order, the acceleration was decent, but always hampered by a station. What a shame that they don't have express service...it would be so fast...
5)Why do they have to do the crew change at Kings Highway? And if they do, why does the train have to layover there and at 86th? What a nuisance. I was sick of the train sitting there, so I got off, got a few photos, walked to the back past some lost kids and a crew member taking his socks off, left the station, and the train was STILL SITTING THERE. Don't they have crew quarters in CI Yard?
6)There were a lot of trackworkers floating around (what's the point of putting a red flag in an abandoned track?) and as our train crawled by, I looked out the window only to see a TA worker in just about every ditch in the side of the rising wall...what were they doing?
7)Remnants of a track that seemed to continue in front of the Manhattan-bound express track, on a concrete structure that rose above our two, and disappeared under the BQE, parallel to the SBK tracks.
8)After changing to an M, when I got to Essex, as we were pulling out, I looked to my left at the old trolley terminal, and I saw tracks! I saw at least three or four separate tracks...they weren't buried in the concrete, but some disappeared behind walls or beneath temporary-looking structures, and others paralleled ours until hitting a wall at the portal of the ramp to the bridge. I always knew it used to be a trolley terminal, but I didn't know the tracks still existed! Why didn't they take them up? Do they use them to cart equipment back in forth or something?
I also noticed what looked like an exit, a staircase surrounded by short walls. Is that a former passenger exit from that station, or was it put there solely for staff to access facilities over there?
9)The West End does have express service! They just don't take passengers. I saw an (M) sitting in the lower level, peeking out (front end with white lights on, but cab unattended) and after I got on a W it caught up with us at 18th Avenue, on the express track. We caught up to it at Bay Pkwy, and the C/R was having a strong argument with another TA worker, I don't know what for, but I think the train was late or something...there were two more (M)'s waiting to start at Bay Pkwy sitting between there and Bay 50.
10)They painted 25th Avenue ORANGE! Now why couldn't they paint Halsey and Kosciuszko orange too? It was helpful to J/Z skip-stop victims to know which stop to get off when they were in the first or last car (most of them) and couldn't see the station sign, but knew their stop by color, blue or orange. Now they're all this blue-green color. I actually liked the shade of orange at 25th. I hope they paint some other stations this color.
11)Between Lawrence and DeKalb, on the downtown track, I noticed a short grey door in the wall. Is this place inhabited by large superintelligent Montague rats or are TA workers expected to walk in the tracks around a blind corner and have to duck down to fit through the door?
Did they also repaint the Queensbound platform? When I was there, it was still in the beige/off white color.
It could be just primer at 25th Ave. Many times they do that before they repaint the station
I remember though when Kosciuszko and Halsey were orange. When all the Jamaica/Myrtle/Broadway El stations were put into the grafitti-free program, many got some wierd colors. In addition Hewes Street (below) was also orange. Gates, Woodhaven Blvd, and Forest Parkway (and I think 121 St) were bright red.
Wyckoff (below), Marcy and Flushing Ave became a hideous pinkish-purple color. That one was truely awful. Many of the underground stations also got that ridiculous pink color also (Myrtle-L, 7th Ave/53rd, Van Alst, and many others).
N Bwy Line
Fred: You have been out of New York for too long. The former BMT Route Number 4 was renamed the Sea Dump Line about three years ago since it no longer goes to either the Sea or the Beach..But I thank you for the slow beach and slum beach titles. I will add them to my list of Sea Beach Line nicknames.
I hope that you and Mrs Fred are well.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
who I might mentioned actually rode the "D"Type Triplexes on there very last day in regular revenue service for the first and only time on the #5 Culver Shuttle, Saturday, March 23, 1974.
BTW The Yanks are off to the best start in team history.
BEACH
SLOW
SEE
GO
SEE BEACH
WHAT BEACH?
NO BEACH
SLOW BEACH
SEE BEACH GO
SLOW SLOW SLOW
Well, look's like your train will be restored to some of its former glory come some time next year. No Triplexes. No Brightliners. But at least out of the tunnel. During "normal" hours.
Red was very popular, even in the 70's. Here's Forest Ave getting rid of it's red 70's scheme full of grafitti to get it's new blue (1990) scheme (the white was the primer to get rid of the grafitti). The blue was a bit much also because EVERYTHING-windows, doors, exterior, interior - every paintable surface became blue (at Seneca, Forest, and Fresh Pond), but it was a big improvement over what was there prior. Notice the abandoned mezzanine stairway to Madison/Woodward Ave still there that was totally removed around 1993.
It was taken around 1990. The whole Myrtle-Wyckoff complex (up and down) was that ridiculous pink color from around 1987 to 1992. It was in a lot of stations back then. I only remember it in the ones mentioned in my other post though. I think I also vaquely remember the whole Union Square complex having those purple columns, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
I think at the time (in the 80's) they used many bizarre colors in stations to try "brighten" up the dull and drab stations, just like the orange interior doors back then. Of course you have to remember, everyone was used to THIS at the time:
It's hard to believe that every elevated/outdoor station in the system looked like 22 Ave-Bay Parkway did in this photo!
EWWW!!! 227 is the Infomercial Channel
But WPIX and WSBK *are* TimeWeenie feeds to their systems, you won't get those off the air here. And the crappy reception you're getting is TYPICAL of TimeWeenie, which is WHY everyone around here has a dish. Another "spotting feature" of TimeWeenie is that when it rains, the reception gets even worse. And no, only a handful of their channels are in stereo and nobody in their headend knows how to set up a Scientific Atlanta channel modulator properly which is why the stero chews, the picture levels are all over creation and chrominance comes and goes with the wind direction.
But yes, the state pays AOL/TimeWeenie a pretty large sum of cash to maintain that system of yours. :)
And with 450 channels out there now, still nothing to watch. And STILL no "railfan window channel" (which would probably have higher ratings than "Oxygen") ... where *IS* Salaam when we need him? :)
Another question about fonts (in re: R32 side signs)... The route bullets are either in Aksidenz, or in Helvetica. However, the majority of the "new signs" on the R32s are in Helvetica, but feature a certain font used in the route bullets that I have no clue what it is. Basically, the "Qs" in this particular font resemble the Helvetica Qs; but the "R," "G" and "S" resemble the ones found in Aksidenz (another question; how come the Rs on platform signs are in Helvetica while the ones found on the front rollsign [of the R46] are usually in Aksidenz?) Plus, the "E" looks nothing like the Helvetica or Aksidenz "E."
Any answers would be helpful. Sorry if these questions appear to be arcane in any way; I just happen to pay very close attention to minute details, while occasionally overlooking the "big picture." ;-)
Arti
AirTrain-JFK is back in testing, with facilities very nearly completed, since the fatal accident. There is no rail development at La Guardia Airport. As to the BQE, I don't know. The only current elevated line work I know about is the Snediker El work on the L BMT line described by other Subtalkers here, with some pictures posted in past threads.
The other expansion project now in progress is in the Sunnyside Yard, where the LIRR is being linked to a new terminal at Grand Central Station; that work is occurring underground.
Number 4 allows for the building of the 116th Street station which I think is very important for the area, and allows for a crosstown 125th Street line. Plus, it allows for an inside transfer between the Lexington Avenue Lines and Metro North Commuter Lines. And lastly, it leaves room for the expansion to the Bronx via Third Avenue.
What I also notice about this proposal, is that, it will have the least construction impact and relatively cheaper to build than the other three proposals.
What are your thoughts?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/pdf/sas%20presentation_116.pdf
N Broadway Line
(Local - soon to be express (once both sides of the bridge is open) HOPEFULLY)
N Bwy
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/pdf/overview12-23-02.pdf
The question is how it will run between Houston and Chatham Square. There are three options: Deep Chrystie, Shallow Chrystie (with ATP transfer to B&D trains) and Forsyth.
Provisions are made for possible extension to Bronx (bypassing the 125th Street station) and Brooklyn or Staten Island. Full connection is made to the 63rd Street tunnel.
Read the whole thing here
It is exciting to hear that the MTA is going with the crosstown plan. Does this means that there is a possibility that this line might be extended towards Broadway in the future?
"They've already chosen the alignment of the line as including 116th, turning crosstown at 125th and using Water Street."
I guess that totally eliminates the possibility of connecting it to the J/M/Z lines?
"The question is how it will run between Houston and Chatham Square. There are three options: Deep Chrystie, Shallow Chrystie (with ATP transfer to B&D trains) and Forsyth."
I love the cross platform idea.. so I hope they will go with that.
"Provisions are made for possible extension to Bronx (bypassing the 125th Street station) and Brooklyn or Staten Island. Full connection is made to the 63rd Street tunnel."
I can't wait to see this happening... But let me tell you, it won't be soon.. especially if you are talking about another expensive underwater tunnel.
With that said, would this line still take over the #6... or be the new 3rd Avenue extension? I guess it's a little early to know what their plans are.
Anyway, thanks for your response! And have a good day.
N Broadway Line
The IND built a connection for a Van Wyck Blvd subway to the QB line, that line was never built but the connection was used for the Archer line. You never know what provisions will end up being used for (if they are, I doubt South 4th will ever get any use).
The cross-platform connection at Grand Street is also dead, due to the environmental impact. The only options still on the table are Deep Chrystie and Forsyth. I prefer the Deep Chrystie option, which would create a vertical transfer between the SAS and the B/D. That seems better than having to walk a block underground.
How the Bronx or 125th St extensions would be done is a matter of conjecture at this point; the SDEIS says little about them. If there's to be a westward extension on 125, probably it would go to 8th avenue, with connections to every line it crosses on the way. A Bronx extension is likely to be a new line or a connection to the Concourse Line. Connection to the #6 is unlikely, because the SAS is being constructed to BMT/IND standards.
Pelham line is also built to BMT standards.
Arti
Arti
The ONLY parts of the IRT that bans BMT trains are the Contract 1 and Contract 2 sections of the IRT (the original subway and the extension to Brooklyn), and the Steinway tubes.
HEre are the IRT sections that can handle BMT/IND trains after shaving off a little bit from the platforms:
-Lexinton Line North of Grand Central (including GC).
-7th Ave Line South of Times Square (including TS, and excluding South Ferry station).
-All of the Bronx Els, except the West Farms (Contract 1 portion south of east 180th St) portion of the 2/5 line (The White Plains Line north of E180 and the Dyre Line can handle it).
-The entire Queens portion of the 7 Line - ***See Below. (excluding the Stienway tunnels and the Manhattan portion of the line).
-The 2/3 line from Chambers to Borough Hall, including the Clark Street tunnel.
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including the Livonia El to New Lots, and the Flatbush Line)
So in summary, THESE are the lines (below) that mess up the IRT, and banish it to narrow cars - relatively a small part of the IRT:
The Contract 1 and 2 lines which include:
-The 7th Ave-Broadway Line North of Times Square to 242 Street
-The 3 line from 103rd to Lenox
-The 2 line from 135th to East 180th Street
-The Lexington line south of Grand Central (including South Ferry, which was originally built as part of the Contract 2 portion of what is now the Lexington Line)
-The Joraleman (4/5) tunnel under the River to Atlantic Ave
-The 42nd Street Shuttle
Finally:
The 7 Line from Times Square to Vernon Jackson
**Note the only part I'm not sure about is the underground portion of the 7 line from Vernon Jackson to Queens Plaza. Someone else will have to finish one of the lists with that information.
Yes and no. All of the IRT Dual Contracts lines will have had their signals replaced by the time the White Plains Rd project is done. Signals are expensive, and perhaps the contractors haven't been so worried about leaving enough room for B division trains to get by. So in addition to shaving off platforms, some other work by have to be done. But it's doable.
So if Manhattan didn't want the disruption of street level contruction, you could eliminate the non-CBD stations, hook into the Pelham, Dyre, and LIRR Atlantic Avenue lines, build a spur to GCT, and use the SAS as an express run to move people from the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens (along with the suburbs) rapidly through Manhattan, leaving the Lex for Manhattanites. I think, however, the idea is the other way around.
If I were king of the forest, I'd run 'em express out the Pelham to Hunts Point on a better ROW and then use the Amtrak ROW to skip over to 180th and go out the wide platform on the Dyre. Just me.
Remember, the Pelham Line was constructed to IND/BMT standards as well, though the new signals installed a few years ago may not be too close to the trains to allow a switch. All you'd have to do is shave back the platforms.
Which leads to a money saving idea for the SAS I actually wrote in and proposed some years ago -- eliminate the stations. The idea was to pull the Bronx passengers off the Lex Local, leaving it for the Upper East Side, rather than pull Upper East Side people off the Lex Local, leaving it for the Bronx. Instead of adding two more local tracks, you'd add two more express tracks. The idea is that added speed would prevail over a longer walk, pulling more people off the Lex.
From a merge with the Pelham Line at 125th Station, the SAS would run non-stop to 72nd Street (near the East Side hospital complexes). One line would branch off to the Broadway Express, and one line would join from Queens, as planned. After the two Midtown stations at 54th and 42nd, the SAS would run express to 14th Street (to serve the other Hosptial Complex in that area), then head down to Lower Manhattan.
The Dyre Avenue line could also be connected with the Pelham -- and thus the SAS -- via the NYW&B ROW, picking up tranferres from the upper White Plans Rd line as it went by. Thus the 80,000 Pelham riders, and 15,000 Pelham riders would have no reason to transfer to the Lex whether their destination was East Midtown (walk from 2nd Ave) West Midtown (take the Broadway Conneciton) or Downton (just keep going on the express). Queens residents could get Downtown faster on the 2nd Avenue Express than on the 6 tranferring to the 4/5.
That leaves the Lex Local, which would start at 125th, to serve the 120,000 people who board on the UES at stations other than 125th and 86th. Except that some of these would use the 72nd Street station. perhaps with a transfer from a bus. The 68th and 72nd Street stations account for half of that 120,000.
This model doesn't provide any opportunities for Brooklyn residents traveling to Midtown to use the SAS Express -- unless it were extended to Brooklyn and Jamaica, as the RPA proposes, on the Atlantic Avenue Branch. That would certainly pull LIRR riders off the IRT. Why not put in the spur from GCT into the SAS and Downtown and pull even more off? That option was rejected because it wouldn't be as fast as the Lex. But it could be.
In short, it's an alternative. If you are looking to cut costs, the elimnation of eight stations out of 15 is something you have to consider, though the cost of the hookups to the Pelham and Dyre and the extension to Brooklyn would offset this.
Right, but if you shaved back the platforms, I assume the Pelham Line would no longer be safe for IRT trains, because of the wide gaps that would be created between platform and trains. (Larry goes on to describe a solution where the #6 would terminate at 125. In that case, I agree it could be done.)
This is the best option for the New Second Avenue-Bx alignment.. However, this does not address third Avenue...
Like you said, the good thing about this.. is it will provide a connection b/t between the Drye and Pelham lines.. But what you missed, is that DYRE will have full time Manhattan Service. Plus, there is a possibility to create a storage yard along this route.
Other than that, I can't agree with your other proposal.
N Bwy
Even easier way - charge subway fares on Metro North within the City limits. It's been done in London and Paris, so why not NYC?
N bwy
N Bwy
N bwy
N Bwy
N Broadway
All opinions are welcome.
Not something to cry about.. but it would have been nice to see some traffic finally on the Eastern Division.
"The cross-platform connection at Grand Street is also dead, due to the environmental impact."
I was counting on this option! TERRIBLE! The cross-platform option is always superior to transfering to another station. But I can understand how it will be for the dozen of people who uses that station everday.. What about this - Maybe they can close the station down until the line is put in? However, I don't think that is possible with all the people who will be complaining.. Remember the Manhattan Bridge.. and how angry people were when the MTA propose the station closing? It was an uproar...
"How the Bronx or 125th St extensions would be done is a matter of conjecture at this point; the SDEIS says little about them. If there's to be a westward extension on 125, probably it would go to 8th avenue, with connections to every line it crosses on the way. A Bronx extension is likely to be a new line or a connection to the Concourse Line. Connection to the #6 is unlikely, because the SAS is being constructed to BMT/IND standards."
GLAD TO SEE THE MTA FINALLY COMING TO THEIR SENSES!
Taking over the #6 IRT LINE was just toooooo crazy of a plan.
Lets pray that the line extends via 3rd Avenue... Whether it's elevated or subway remains a BIG question.
Anyway, thanks for the response! Good day! SIR!
N Bwy
Shallow Christie was pretty much eliminated because of the disruption that cut and cover would cause along the corridor of Second Avenue and Christie Street through the East Village, the Lower East Side, and Chinatown. There is a graphic in the SDEIS which sections would have to be C & C for shallow Christie.
Deep Christie would create a connection like West 4th Street or Lexington & 69th Street with and intermediate level between the Bridge station and the SAS island platform station. It should be escalator and elevator friendly.
As for the outer borough connections, I believe that, by not going all the way to South Ferry, the line can be turned to a new future tunnel to Brooklyn. I am not sure if the Bronx connection is from 125th & Lex. or through the underground yard north of 116th & 2nd. Queens is of course through 63rd Street, but will not happen without a place to send the trains. I wonder if they could turn trains at 21st-Queensbridge with the current configuration without disrupting through service. If not, we need at least a short track off the Queens Boulevard connecting tunnel toward Sunnyside yard, which will be built if they build a new yard in Sunnyside.
Given what subways are costing I don't expect any new ones in Queens. My idea was a short branch to a single station down by the LIE, which would also be a bus terminal. An express bus lane could be added to the LIE, and parts of Queens not within walking distance of a subway could have buses that ran down local streets, got on the express busway, and terminated at the station. People would board and ride through the 63rd Street tunnel, either down Second Avenue or (after a change at Roosevelt) down 6th Avenue.
What's the feasibility of having an LRT in Queens anyway? Would it be any better than the massive amounts of bus service that poorly compliment the lack of subways in Queens? Mmm, this just makes me wish the IND's Second System when through... Otherwise, I wouldn't be posting this. :(
As for the crosstown 125 St option, it should run all the way west to Broadway seeing that 125 is a busy thoroughfare and it would be better to do it all at 1 time than build it to 8 Av than find & spend MORE money to do a next extension. In the Bronx, the 6 connection is a BAD idea to begin with and shouldn't even be considered. It would make sense if the line had a provision to be extended via 3 Av [subway or el] well into the Bronx and provides a alternative to the Bx55.
But maybe in 150 years, after the PA has finally finished building the rail freight tunnel between NJ and Brooklyn, and it has nothing better to do, perhaps we could see a PATH line across 125 St connecting to NJ and all the uptown subways, including 2 Ave. Maybe?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sdeis/FigS-1.pdf
Looks interesting, especially the Broadway lines.
Anyway, the only thing that bothers me about the "T" line, it doesn't have any meaningful connections in lower manhattan.. Too bad the Whitehall Street connection was ruled out.. because they thought it would not have a large passenger base... and from an engineering standpoint, it was going to be very expensive.
N Bwy
Plus it would be relatively easy to add at least two:
- Grand St (T) - Bowery (J)(M)(Z) (in addition to Grand St (B)(D))
- Hanover Sq (T) - Wall St (2)(3)
Both of these would at the cost of a short connecting passage improve access to Brooklyn - okay, perhaps not the most useful lines in Brooklyn, but they go to Brooklyn nonetheless.
I did not know there was going to be a stop at Bowery with the J/M/Z.. I thought that was ruled out because of all the obstacles of running all those services through there.
As for the Wall Street connection with that 2/3... I haven't heard that either.. Plus, that will be physically impossible, because those stations aren't that close.. as indicated on the Map.
And, the B/D connection isn't in lower manhattan.. It is part of the Lower East Side. The FINANCIAL DISTRICT is DOWNTOWN or lower MANHATTAN.
N Bwy
Who cares what the neighborhood's called? It the Southernmost transfer to another line (albeit not a particularly useful one if you want to get further downtown). It is also a station location that could easily have a transfer passage added to get you onto a line which would get you to WALL-AND-BROAD-STREETS-THAT-IS-THE-FINANCIAL-DISTRICT-THAT-IS-DOWNTOWN-THAT-IS-LOWER-MANHATTAN (your caps).
I did not know there was going to be a stop at Bowery with the J/M/Z.
There isn't. What I was saying is that that would make the 2nd Avenue Line more use for those trying to go to/from Brooklyn.
I thought that was ruled out because of all the obstacles of running all those services through there.
A track connection was decided against for whatever reason - I personally thought Nassau St was a better option, but that's not going to happen now. However, a connecting passage from Grand/Chrystie to Bowery/Delancey should not be too difficult (think Court Sq - Ely) and would add a rather useful transfer.
As for the Wall Street connection with that 2/3... I haven't heard that either..
Read what I was saying. It is a short connecting passage which is not in the plans but would be incredibly useful. If I were not on the wrong side of the Atlantic, I would write to the MTA suggesting it. If you look on a street map, rather than the MTA's distorted map, it is the obvious place to add a transfer passage.
Plus, that will be physically impossible, because those stations aren't that close
Water/Old Slip to Wall/William is not a very long way (don't let the scale fool you). It is nothing compared to the existing connecting passages at Penn or at Times Sq.
Distance has nothing to do with whether something's physically possible anyway. Remember Wall St station is quite deep - there's a full length mezzanine above the platform - a connecting passage would physically fit above the tracks under William St and Old Slip. I think this passageway would be very useful - Brooklyn IRT riders wanting to go to East Side would now have a choice of 2/3 then T as opposed to 4/5 or 2/3 to 4/5 (as many Brooklyn stations only have 7th Av service anyway).
It might be particularly useful for people using the B/D/F lines who want to go further downtown.
"There isn't. What I was saying is that that would make the 2nd Avenue Line more use for those trying to go to/from Brooklyn."
That's irrelevant... They will already have the B/D/ and F option.
"A track connection was decided against for whatever reason - I personally thought Nassau St was a better option, but that's not going to happen now."
If you would have spent time reading the report like I did, you would have known that it is not feasible. For instance, the report stated that an added 2nd Avenue service would mean reducing J/M/Z services. It will be detrimental to the surround area.. and there will not be any added benefits when it comes to removing people from the crowded 4/5 lines.
"However, a connecting passage from Grand/Chrystie to Bowery/Delancey should not be too difficult (think Court Sq - Ely) and would add a rather useful transfer."
It will be very good, but if it isn't part of the SAS proposal, it won't happen.
"Read what I was saying. It is a short connecting passage which is not in the plans but would be incredibly useful. If I were not on the wrong side of the Atlantic, I would write to the MTA suggesting it. If you look on a street map, rather than the MTA's distorted map, it is the obvious place to add a transfer passage."
I'm very clear what you posted.. Do me a favor sir and take out a map. The Hanover station will be too far north and west to make a possible connection with the 2/3 at Wall Street. The best option will be Fulton Street.. but I don't think that is physically possible. Too far... unless they plan on destroying the entire Fulton Street to make that connection, which is a lot better than Wall Street.
"Distance has nothing to do with whether something's physically possible anyway. Remember Wall St station is quite deep - there's a full length mezzanine above the platform - a connecting passage would physically fit above the tracks under William St and Old Slip. I think this passageway would be very useful - Brooklyn IRT riders wanting to go to East Side would now have a choice of 2/3 then T as opposed to 4/5 or 2/3 to 4/5 (as many Brooklyn stations only have 7th Av service anyway)."
It is my understanding that the main purpose of building the new "T" (second avenue line) was to reduce the over-crowding on the 4/5 lines, not the 2/3 lines. Therefore, it make more sense to connect it to the 4/5 than the 2/3.
However, I do see some minor benefits for the Second Line to connection with the 2/3 lines. But is it worth the money? I disagree.
The only problem I have with Hanover is that it stop short of the Staten Island Ferry. But they ruled Whitehall Street out because of the major environment impact it will cause in the area. And the fact the station will have to be very deep in order for it to pass safety through that area.
N Bwy
As for the J/M/Z interference, while I agree the Water Street line would be better in the long run because it would serve a currently underserved business area of Lower Manhattan along with the South Street Seaport and Beekman Towers apartments, the MTA's claim that it would interfere too much with the current Nassau Street service seems a bit disingenuious, given the excess of tracks along the route and the two tail tracks already available for turnarounds, south of Chambers and Broad.
The MTA would have to do some track realignment at Chambers, Canal and possibly Bowery to extend the island platforms an additional 150 feet to handle 10-car trains, but I can't see how that would cost more than 1 1/2 miles of brand-new track from Delancey to Hanover Square (Fulton and Broad platform extensions would simply involve carving 150 feet of platform out of the side walls, and wouldn't require any track relocations).
Ideally, there would be two routes serving Lower Manhattan via Second Ave., one running to Hanover Square via Chatham Square and Water Street, while the other went via Nassau Street and from there possibly on to Brooklyn. That way, the Second Ave. line(s) would be within three blocks of almost all the downtown offices south of Brooklyn Bridge, which would make it more attractive to Lex riders coming from uptown and midtown on the East Side, and would void the need for any transfer to the 2/3 at Hannover Square or to the Fulton St. complex via an underground walkway from Water to Williams Street.
However, with the BMT Broadway express connection north of 63rd St. and only a two-track service planned, the only way this would work would be to tie in Second Ave. south of 63rd St. to the tunnel going to Queens, so one of those routes could go to Continental Ave. or Jamaica/Hillside while the Q takes its place north of 63rd.
As I understand it, the MTA concedes that the J/M/Z line could handle the SAS traffic initially, since half the trains leaving 125 St will peel off at 63rd St and head over to Broadway. But if a Queens service along 2nd Ave were added, the Nassau St line couldn't handle that *plus* the existing J/M/Z service.
Yes, there are plenty of extra tracks along the Nassau St route between Essex and Chambers Sts, but it's a two-track line at Fulton and Broad Sts. The line couldn't handle existing J/M/Z service and a full complement of 2nd Avenue trains.
Wouldn't be a problem. I personally think Larry's theory is more plausible. Also it would be kind of embarrasing to reactivate an abandoned line, especially as it was abandoned while the study was done. Anyway, I think reasons are political.
Arti
Naah, I don't think it's entirely political, though it is nice to think that the Water Street alignment could get us some money. The SAS EIS says if you run the service through Nassau, you couldn't add a Queens service in the future, or increase J/M/Z service by adding a third track super J.
Half true. You could use the unused Christie to route some JMZ trains NB on Second. So, as at 63rd Street, half the Second Avenue trains would turn off, half would keep going.
The real advantage of the Water Street route is the potential for an LIRR connection via a new tunnel. But I would be pleasantly suprised if we even get the stubway. If that gets built and there is more money, perhaps the Nassau Connection could be built. And later, if there is more money still, perhaps the Water Street route could be built in addition. It would provide a second viable stoppage point.
You're making too much of this. Abandoning a line and dismantling track can sometimes be just because the TA doesn't want to expend the maintenance effort on those tracks. Amid a multibillion dollar project, setting the tracks back up is a detail nobody will make hay about except us subway nerds.
Arti
Running two lines south of 63rd on Second Ave. would create a capacity problem on Nassau St., if no Water Street option was used. On the other hand, given the construction that would be involved in either sending the Second Ave. tracks past Delancey to Water Street or tying them into Nassau St., the MTA at the same time could tie the Second Ave. tracks into the unused KK connection, and send one of the current lines, J, M or Z (or even a new routing to Canarsie) uptown via Second Ave. So one route could give Williamsburgh and B'way-B'klyn residents direct access to midtown East Side while the other route serves downtown.
N Bwy
Arti
N Bwy
N Bwy
I wonder if they could build them both ... if they wouldn't have to extend the length of the Nassau Street platforms? How much will it cost to simply provide a track connection? It seems rather simple.
They can just run an 8 car service through nassau Street towards Brooklyn.. M service will terminate at Chambers during rush hours.. And J/Z will continue towards Broad Street.
What do you think? Is it possible?
N Bwy
Arti
Arti
Arti
And grab a pizza on a stick.
None of which go anywhere near the J, M or Z (Okay, the D will go near a part time section of the M come 2004).
that an added 2nd Avenue service would mean reducing J/M/Z services.
No it wouldn't. For a start, a better Nassau connector would give the possibility of 3 services: 2nd Av - Jamaica, 2nd Av - Brooklyn, and Myrtle - Broad. Even if a crappy V shaped connector were adopted, Chrystie St would still be able to carry enough trains out of the way (services 2nd Av - Brooklyn, Jamaica - Broad, and Myrtle - 6th Av). The only station that would lose service would in that scenario be 2nd Avenue.
The Hanover station will be too far north and west to make a possible connection with the 2/3 at Wall Street.
It sounds to me like you're conflating Hanover Sq and Seaport. If anything, Hanover Sq is quite a way South. Are you confusing Hanover Sq with Chatham Sq? Either that or the MTA is vey confused as to the location of Hanover Sq and you should write them a letter informing them that their planned station is nowhere near Hanover Sq.
It is my understanding that the main purpose of building the new "T" (second avenue line) was to reduce the over-crowding on the 4/5 lines, not the 2/3 lines. Therefore, it make more sense to connect it to the 4/5 than the 2/3.
No, no, no. It make sense to encourage 2/3 ridership in Brooklyn, not 4/5 ridership if the 4/5 is overcrowded. You would cram even more people onto more crowded trains to reach the T line.
The only problem I have with Hanover is that it stop short of the Staten Island Ferry.
Staten Island is completely irrelevant. The 7th Av Local can manage easily. It runs at half capacity and still carries all those passengers. Unless you're saying this causes disasters at Penn Station or Times Sq as a direct result of people from SI, nothing needs to be done.
And the fact the station will have to be very deep in order for it to pass safety through that area.
Who doesn't dislike that?
Arti
#3 West End Jeff
If you are an N ASTORIA RIDER! I feel you should write a letter to the planners of the SAS explaining why you feel a 59th Street connection is more necessary.
N Bwy
Arti
It looks like the bridge repairs for the 6th Avenue IND lines will be completed soon. This means that there will be major chances.
I suggest that these changes include returning the N on the Broadway Express tracks. And maintaining express service on the Brighton Line with the Q line.
It will go as follows.
N - Becomes an express on the Broadway line... everyday from 6AM - 12AM. Via Manhattan Bridge. Rush hour express via 4th Avenue. Othertimes local all stops.. Montague Tunnel.
W - Rush hour and Midday Express - to Whitehall Street from Astoria. No evenings or nights.
R - no changes.
Q - Express via the Broadway and Brighton Line.. everday except Sundays from 6AM - 10PM.
N Broadway Line
Astoria, Broadway, Seabeach
PS: Don't respond if you are not a BROADWAY supporter!
N - on the bridge, Bway express
W - Astoria to Whithall, Bway local
B - BRIGHTON! line
D - WEST END! line
R - same as now
Q - on the bridge, Bway express
Yes, but things did happen before 1911 and I am sure that a station existed at some point.
You are correct that trains changed power at Hunter Tower. There was always the lead with overhead catenary where the GG1 would take over. This was before the Aldene plan, which took place with the time change in October 1967 - IIRC. The last time I was up the NEC, it appears this lead has had new catenary and supports installed on the lead. Maybe they are getting ready to electrify the Raritan Valley.
The Aldene plan was a modification of the LVRR service that was discontinued a few years before. At that time the CNJ's station, now refurbished at Liberty Park, was taken out of service, and all trains continued to PRR NEWARK PENN STA.
The Reading (RDG) ran three trains into Jersey City Terminal (CNJ) from Reading Terminal in Philadelphia Monday through Friday until the Aldene took effect. These trains consisted of two heading towards NY in the morning from Philly. They were the Crusader, a 5-unit Budd built (1937) pocket streamliner with observation ends and a mid-train tavern lounge car. The other was the Wall Street that consisted of modernized reclining seat coaches with a mid-train tavern lounge. They returned from NY to Philly in the late afternoon. These trains were pulled by the FP-7's until both trains were converted to RDC operation just before the Aldene plan went into effect. Although these trains were not a treat to the mightly PRR, they did have their loyal patrons, usually commuters who boarded the trains at Elkins Park, Jenkintown, West Trenton, Hopewell, and Belle Mead.
In later years, a RDG crew member needed a lot of "whiskers" to hold down the 'Yorkers'. IIRC, those two runs paid a minimum of 2 days pay due to time and mileage (remember back in those days a day was 100 miles for an engine crew). Some of the crew members held jobs in NYC. One, Felix Liberto, conductor on the Crusader in the 1960's, worked for a bank in NYC. Talk about double dipping! Whatever, the crew had a 8 hour layover at Newark. Unless you had something to pass the time, that got old very quickly.
There also was a reverse commute train from NY to Philly, down in the morning and back in the evening. I think this train came off before the Aldene plan. This train was a CNJ crewed run.
The LVRR really didn't have commute service like the CNJ and RDG.
Someone may be able to help me with the dates, but that is pretty much the history IIRC.
Jim K.
Chicago
The link is http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=70984
Camera catches Port Chester crashes
Picture supplied by The Inquier
Link to where I first found this story on The Inquier
Through whose neighborhood do you suggest they reroute the trucks?
I'm sure the neighborhood already has plenty of low clearance signs. The truckers are just too stupid to notice or care. Trucks are constantly smashing into bridges on the parkways (or jamming traffic when they have to be escorted off the road because they stopped in the nick of time) despite all the regular signs, icons of trucks smashing into low bridges, portable electronic signs saying "no trucks," stationary electronic signs reading "no trucks on parkway," and INFORM signs changed to read "NO TRUCKS ON PARKWAY." I'm surprised we don't see trucks trying to get into the subway system.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
My brother-in-law runs short-haul (away from home no more than overnight) and my son-in-law is a former over-the-road driver who is now dispatching for a small firm in Arizona, so I have heard many stories about truck drivers and their mistakes. One of the most recent ones involves one of Larry's drivers who struck an overpass somewhere in Utah last month. The following conversation is from memory, as overheard on Larry's speakerphone when I was visiting last month (I've named the driver Curly here to protect his identity, and besides, it fits):
Larry: You're WHERE????
Curly: Stuck under the bridge on county 14. Top of the trailer's torn up a bit.
Larry: You know that's only twelve-seven...
Curly: Yeah, didn't see the sign... them pills weren't working too well, but I'm awake now. Besides, I went that way last week and didn't have any problems.
Larry: Last week you were pulling an empty flatbed, you idiot!
The trailer in question was 13' 9" high and was loaded with fiberglass insulation material. Not only was the top of the trailer sheared completely off, the frame was buckled and enough damage was done to the tractor - an older Peterbilt owned by the driver - that it too was totalled. Since that time Curly's bought another tractor and is still driving for the company.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, at the exact same time, the City allowed its own subway ("the World's Fair Railroad") to charge a 10 cent fare to the Fair.
Bill "Newkirk"
Have camera and tape. May travel (NOT for a nickel!) :)
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This ain't a good sign. Mail has always been Amtrak's bread and butter.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Mail
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Downeaster
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Amtrakto
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Passenger trains will run between Portland and Astoria, Ore., this summer as part of the Lewis and Clark bicentennial commemoration.
Train service, which last ran between the two cities in 1952, begins May 23, a Friday, and will run through September 2. Trains will travel between Portland Union Station and Astoria along the Oregon side of the lower Columbia River.
The train will be named The Lewis & Clark Explorer Train, and will be able to carry 166 passengers.
The route runs along the Columbia River close to several historical sites that were visited by the famous expedition, through nature preserves and over scenic river trestles.
The Lewis & Clark Explorer Train will depart Portland Union Station at 7:30 a.m. four days a week (Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday) for the four-hour ride to Astoria. The train will leave Astoria at 4:30 p.m. to arrive in Portland at 8:30 p.m.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#First
Sounds like the LIRR (minus the suit-covered anuses, of course)!
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Rats! I'd attend, but the Garage Door Opener symposium conflicts that weekend.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#First
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Romney
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Some
It surprised me even more that the City Comptroller is issuing a report on railroad station safety. It seems somewhat outside the scope of his responsibilities. Unless, of course, he has further political ambitions.
CG
Look back in newspaper files...this same report comes out around this time EVERY YEAR. It's an annual fight between New York City and the MTA over subsidies vs. station upkeep.
David
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I wonder when people will realize that if they support and use transit congestion problems will decrease. Maybe Heypaul needs to smack them w/ a rubber chicken.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#APTAAAA
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Finally, a tax cut that actually improves general national welfare.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04212003.shtml#Will
The more relevent examples is that cutting taxes for certain small segments of the population (aka the %5 income brakcet) will increase their utility slightly, while destroying various social problems that provide a far greater amont of utility over a far greater number of people.
Nothing prevents citizens from contributing to a general defense fund - voluntarily of course - for police, army, etc.
Take your Libertarian propaganda back to Montana and on the way I would suggest picking up an economics textbook.
I haven't heard that seriously proposed since the days of sitting around and passing a joint while reminiscing about the great weekend at Woodstock. :-)
Tom
Jim K.
Chicago
So if we reduced taxes to 0% we'd collect record taxes?? Are you truely that stupid or did you simply not even take the time to research the theory behind your republican clap trap.
The Laffer curve states that at 0% and 100% the government will collect no tax revenue and at some point in the middle there is a maximum revenue point. While the Republicans used this fact to cut taxes to an average rate of somewhere around 20% the REAL point was point was calculated to be an average tax rate of 57%. So where we are on the curve cutting taxes will do what is expected and LOWER revenue.
BTW, you realize that unless you make over 250k the Bush tax plan will probably not even cover your expenses from the fare hike.
The Laffer Curve
More suggested reading:
A simple description of supply-side economics
This forum isn't really an appropriate place to argue this topic.
Unfortunately the articles you linked to provided no information about the shape of the Laffer curve, or where the optimum point on the curve is, nor would it be a simple curve but a complex model involving both the rate and the income bracket. i.e. a 10% reduction of taxes in the lowest tax bracket may have a different effect than a 10% reduction of taxes in the highest tax bracket, and 15% reductions in both brackets may have different results. It appears to be most effective when taxes at confiscatory levels (above 70%) are reduced..
As far as considering the effect of a tax cut during the Regan years on tax revenues is concerned, it cannot be considered in a vacuum. If a drunken sailor walks into a bar an buys round after round for everyone in the house, the bar owner will have more income and pay more income tax. If the government spends money it does not have like a drunken sailor all over the country, more people will have more money and pay more income taxes, regardless of a minor tax cut and not necessarily because of it.
Tom
Arti
It is also abused by people in favor of supply side economics, mostly for political reasons.
I am not very comfortable with very "conservative" views on taxation ("conservative" and "liberal" don't always make a lot of sense, actually). But one "conservative" viewpoint I completely agree with is that, if you want to help the poor, the first thing you should do is stop taxing them. It's what you do afterward where the disagreement begins.
Arti
A tax cut in the lowest tax brackets not only will not bring in a lot of revenue, it would greatly reduce the revenue, which would not be painless to the government. If we accept the assumption that the government needs the revenue for all the good deeds it does, such as paying a $6,000.00 death benefit to the families of the servicemen killed while defending us from the imminent danger of Iraq's (well hidden) weapons of mass destruction, then reducing revenue is unacceptable. :-/
Tom
It's important to recognize that economics -- despite all its use of mathematics -- is still a social science.
CG
Well, it's a hybrid. It seeks to predict social behavior and to rationalize it. There is much of validity there. Recall John Nash' contribution to economic theory, popularized (but not adequately explained in a venue for the innumerate public) by the movie "A Beautiful Mind."
Economists create rigorous mathematical equations but with variables (like utility) that are inherently unknowable. They then make assumptions regarding those variables to develop a theory. Yet, despite the supposed technical rigor, the frequency with which political and other biases creep into the assumptions as well as the tendency to over-emphasize recent phenomena and under-emphasize or even omit others means that most economic theories eventually fall apart.
Look at all the supposedly great economists of the early 20th century. Keynesian economics has been almost entirely discredited -- yet when I majored in economics as an undergrad 15 years ago nearly half the professors were staunch Keynesians. On many college campuses, professors still teach it as the gospel truth.
Similarly, the last few years have shown the efficient-market hypothesis as applied to the stock market to be quite lacking. Yet, you'll still hear talking heads discussing "beta" on CNBC.
It's one of the things that makes business and investing so attractive for some people. If economics were a hard science, there would be a right and a wrong answer for just about every decision. Instead, two intelligent people can have different opinions about an economic direction and each can then "put their money where their mouth is"
CG
On the other hand, claims about "record high defecits" are a red herring. Certainly, the nominal dollar amount of the defecit would be higher than any in history -- but that's only because of inflation and the degree of growth this country has achieved. The projected defecit (let's just use the static projection despite all it's flaws) is just shy of 3% of GDP -- which isn't even in the top 10 of all time defecits on that measure. Defecits in the early 80's were 6% of GDP and the country came out of that era with one of the longest strings of prosperity in history.
As for those who claim that any defecit is bad -- you need to have some amount of government debt in order to establish a risk-free benchmark for interest rates. Without government debt those people relying on a fixed income would be forced to either invest their savings in banks at 1% or less interest or to rely on corporate bonds -- and we've all seen what can happen to so called safe corporate bonds lately.
CG
Anyway, I generally do not have a problem w/ Regan's cuts, taxes were far to high in the pre-1980 US. However, the rationale was flawed and has been continued to be used to hijack tax policy and give more and more tax cuts to the wealthy. Impovrishing the vast majority of Americans is not the way to improve the econony. Wealth is not a pie where one's consumption is takes away from anothers. If income and wealth has at least a modicum of even distrabution the total gains to society will be so much higher than if the top %1 get to live in their private gated estates occasionally throwing out bones to the rest of us slaves.
You have that backwards Mike. Real wealth is like a pie made up of all the goods and services in the economy. When the wealth becomes so concentrated in a relatively small number of very rich people who cannot possibly consume even a small proportion of it, the rest have to fight over the crumbs that are left. In the United States we have not yet come anywhere close to that situation, but it is obvious in the economies of many third world countries.
Tom
I think you're both right to a degree. In many (most?) third world countries the wealth is so concentrated that there are only crumbs left -- making it nearly impossible to generate wealth without resorting to violence.
On the other hand, the combination of a strong middle class, meaningful property rights and title laws allow someone from the lower or middle classes to generate wealth.
I don't think you can really say that wealth is a fixed pie. The money supply may be a fixed pie. Wealth is a combination of both the size of the money supply and the rate at which it turns over. The faster money turns over, the more wealth is created. In the third world example the money sits in the hands of the few and never leaves.
CG
"On the other hand, the combination of a strong middle class, meaningful property rights and title laws allow someone from the lower or middle classes to generate wealth."
Can we add to this that property rights include rights to real property (land), and intellectual property (patents and copyrights)?
++Can we add to this that property rights include rights to real property (land), and intellectual property (patents and copyrights)? ++
Sure. The land property rights and title allow you to borrow against your property to generate the wealth once. The intellectual property rights in effect create royalties.
Sorry, you still have it backwards. It is the money in circulation that can be increased by borrowing, but wealth, defined as the total goods and services is fixed (over the short term). As a simple example, suppose the two of us are stranded on the proverbial desert island with nothing but one tree with twenty-four coconuts on it. Those twenty-four coconuts are the total wealth of our economy, and we can divide them up and each have his own coconut supply. Paper money is unnecessary because there is so little wealth and we can see it all.
The United States is a bit larger than that island but the country's wealth is all the goods and services produced. Since we cannot just look at them and see them all, we use money as well as material goods (your house, car, jewelry, etc.) as a representation of portion of the wealth we individually own (your own piece of the pie). If the amount of money in circulation (which is the money supply and the rate it turns over) is increased without an increase in the total goods and services we have inflation, and goods and services become more expensive to sop up the excess money. The person who has more money is wealthier than the person with less money, but if the government were to hand out 1,000.00 new (redesigned) dollars for each $1.00 a person turned in it would not make anyone a bit wealthier.
Over time, due to increases in productivity, there can be an increase in the total wealth of the country. That increase in wealth may be passed on to workers through increased employment and increased wages or owners of the means of production through higher dividends and stock prices. By the same token, if there is a recession, and the total wealth of the country goes down, stock prices and dividends go down and companies may layoff workers or seek wage reductions.
Tom
Ok, I am going to ignore natural resource allocation here for a second, but it has been demonstrated, mostly through the use of micro-lending, that all you need to do to "create" wealth is to simply have people work in some sort of useful task. The problem is that you need to prime the pump. I can't trade for services if I have nothing to trade with. Our modern economy and monitary trade system works with the cash up front, but if there is no up front cash nobody works and if you don't work you don't have cash to spend, and so on and so on. The success of the micro lending enterprises have shown if you just give people the ability to start engaging in useful activity they will generate not only a return on the inventment, but also cash that they can spend on other things stimulating even more productive behavior.
Business lending, including the micro lending in the third world, is renting capital. Where there is virtually no capital, a small amount makes a big difference. The micro loans have a multiplier effect since they not only provide necessary capital, but also employment for the borrower.
Tom
That may or may not have been true in JFK's time, but it was NOT true in Reagan's time. The tax cuts were excessive and had the effect of robbing the pauper to subsidize the wealthy.
CG
A rate which is confiscatory to someone making $20,000 per year is not necessarily confiscatory to someone making $100,000 per year.
Reagan may have claimed to put a stop to 72% rates, but of course neglected to mention that hardly anyone who qualified for such a rate did not have a lot of tax sheltering options - the result is that the effective rate was much less.
I personally benefit from that, of course: last year my taxable income was over a third less than my gross income. How many people of modest income can say that?
Such shelters have always been disproportionally claimed by the wealthy regardless of whether a Democrat or Reublican was in the White House; Reagan seemed to make a specialty of it.
Pretty much anyone making less than $20 000 a year.
Arti
I haven't checked the tax tables lately, but yes, I suppose that may be true. The problem comes at somewhat higher incomes (but where you can still be struggling if you have mouths to feed).
Without real property and lots of business-related, IRA and educational tax deductions, it would not have been true for me
Arti
In Charles G's post he mentions that buying a house just to save taxes is stupid. So is having a baby.
You get stuck even deeper in the hole.
Arti
I certainly hope you do not agree with him. It is the greatest investment a less than wealthy person can make. There are tax savings on the property taxes, the interest paid, and especially on appreciation when the property is sold. I know a couple who make a considerable amount by buying a fixer-upper (preferably an REO), moving in and renovating over two years, then selling for a large untaxed profit.
Tom
Spending a dollar today to get back 33 cents tomorrow never makes sense.
CG
Unless you get more. Real estate purchases are also viewd as investments.
Arti
There's always the favorite college student ploy - "invent" a child and file for the Earned Income Tax Credit. This is a riskier venture ever since the IRS began requiring Social Security Numbers for the ankle biters, but it still continues.
The effective tax rate will always be less than the highest marginal rate in a graduated system. Once you were into the 72% bracket, your next dollar of income was taxed at 72% (plus state and city which would be 83% in NYC!) regardless of whatever tax shelters you may have used on your earlier dollars of income. In my book, that's a disincentive to keep producing.
"I personally benefit from that, of course: last year my taxable income was over a third less than my gross income. How many people of modest income can say that?"
Unfortunately, in the NY metro area there are many but for the wrong reasons. Too many people have bought into the "buy property because I get a tax deduction" phenomena and have purchased homes which consume as much as 40% of their gross income. The mortgage interest and real estate tax create massive adjustments to their gross incomes, but spending a dollar to save 33 cents on your taxes isn't smart -- it's idiotic.
"Such shelters have always been disproportionally claimed by the wealthy regardless of whether a Democrat or Reublican was in the White House; Reagan seemed to make a specialty of it."
Your comment about Reagan seems blatantly political. Didn't the tax cuts in the early 80's reduce the degree to which tax shelters were used? Further, the Tax Reform Act of 1986 -- which Reagan championed -- eliminated the investment tax credit and put limits on "passive losses" which were the two biggest tax shelters out there at the time.
CG
Agreed. I would argue that phenomenon is not limited to New York.
Off the topic slightly, I am amused by what happens to a guy working as a stockbroker or bond trader (at least it did a few years ago): He gets hired, makes his pocket money during the year, and gets a mortgage to buy a dream home in Darien CT based on the expectation of that million dollar bonus at the end of the year (the bank is very trusting). Gotta keep up with the Jones family, you know? Then Morgan Stanley tells him, "Sorry, business sucks. Your bonus is only $300,000 this year."
So naturally he's wetting his pants on the way to the bank to explain why he has to default on his mortgage payments. (True story with many variations)
The thing that kills me is that all this guy had to do was stay in his studio for a year, collect his first bonus, or even two, and then buy a really nice house with a mortgage he could afford even if he got laid off a few years later.
If that isn't moronic I don't know what is.
Sniff sniff, I'm so broken up with sorrow.
Hopefully, mortgage lenders aren't quite so trusting anymore.
What you are ignoring is that the 72% bracket was for earned income. Someone like a sports star who earned a large salary paid a high rate, but if the big bucks were coming from capital gains or municipal bond interest the rate was much lower. I suspect that very little of Donald Trump's income was ever taxed at 72%.
Tom
What truly scares me is that we’re going into a period where there will be a record number of people wanting retirement benefits, including expanded Medicaid, prescription drug benefits, etc, etc, with a reduced workforce able to pay for it. Having an ever-increasing debt service on top, just makes things worse.
Unfortunately, the United States, unlike some third-world countries, cannot just declare bankruptcy, without destablizing just about every currency/bank/market anywhere.
I agree with you. There is a big "gnerational equity" issue out there that is worse in NY. I'm very upsent about the huge debts and unfunded pension liabilities New York ran up in the boom, much of which was shunted onto the MTA and is coming due now.
After Perot, the fedreal government got religion for a while, but that's gone out the window. If the deficits persist when the economy recovers, it will be time for everyone under age 50 to stage a geneal strike.
Will there be any social security in 2016? Will my pensions be available for me to take?
Larry's point about underfunded pensions is a good point. What ever happend to ERISA? Isn't that the governmental mechanism that guarrantees that pensions and retirement programs are kept intact?
What congress needs is a letter writing campaign that questions what the government will do about broke or bursting pension funds in the country. What about the retirees from Bethlehem Steel? I've heard some horror stories about that pension fund.
Yes, the baby boomers are beginnging to retire. Most will continue to work as long as they can because of the high costs of health care, but eventually there will be a lot more people in the "retired" column of the ledger.
What will the states and Washington do about it as social security and medicare surpluses dry up?
Me, I'm ready to cash in and head for a third world country where one can live like a king on very little cash and the only worry one has is the next revolution.
Jim K.
Chicago
As a nation, we consume far too much and save far to little. I cringe every time I hear of somebody taking a loan against a 401K to buy a new car, or saving huge amounts for their childs college education while putting aside nothing for their own retirement.
Of course, there's a bit of Catch-22 there -- if we didn't consume so much, our current economy (OK, not current as in this exact moment -- but current as in the last two decades relative to the rest of the world) wouldn't be nearly as strong.
CG
I don't know who those many people are. I started working and paying Social Security in the mid ‘50s and was well aware all along from government advertising that Social Security was meant to be the kernel of a retirement plan, not the whole plan.
What discouraged a lot of savings was the huge inflation of the ‘70s. Those who did without in order to save saw their savings destroyed by inflation and decided to enjoy it when they had it. These are many of the people who have reached retirement age without sufficient savings. There is also a large proportion of the poorly educated unskilled workforce who have never had enough earnings to save for retirement.
Tom
I guess all those impassioned political speeches have gotten into my brain despite my best efforts to keep them out.
CG
Debt doesn't scare me. Fear of debt does. Balanced-budget laws do more damage to governmental finances than any sizeable debt could.
What the problem is here is that the 80’s debt was notpaid down in the 90’s: we had just got to the balanced budget stage by the end of Clinton. Our current president is pushing tax cuts, while there are some big-ticket items coming up that he is also not being honest about (if you believe that we can fix Iraq for $10 billion then there’s a bridge I’d like to show you…). See here* for a start.
John
*NY Times: free subscription required.
Tax cuts increase revenues. If you want to reduce the amount of money we need to borrow, then you should support tax cuts.
Can you stop spouting that idiocy without giving intellectually credible reasons? The only way tax cuts could increase revenues is if there are all these people choosing not to work or invest because the tax rate makes it not worth it who would suddenly become productive, and have higher incomes, if taxes were cut. Can anybody make a credible case that this is so?
Larry Lindsey, Bushes eco advivor (fired) was pushing this idea. In 1980, as one of Reagan's advisors, he asserted that exempting investment gains from income would encourage "savings and investment" while taxing borrowing would discourage debt. The tax break for consumer borrowing was eliminated in 1986. All kinds of tax-deferred savings vehicles were created, beginning with the IRA, then the 401K, 529s, etc. We have lots of savings, most of it tax deferred, some of it tax exempt.
So what happened? The personal savings rate fell from 8 percent in 1980 to 4 percent in 1990 to ZERO in 2000. Write a paper and get it published in a respected Eco journal explaining how this cause and effect squares with your assertion that tax rates drive decisions and then I'll consider believing your Vodooo.
Speaking of debt and Vodoo, when Christie Whitman decided to borrow against the pension funds (inflated by the stock market) to balance a budget in a boom, on the ground that the pension funds had plenty of money, I recall a member of the New Jersey Legislature saying about the something allegedly for nothing deal "I know it sounds too good to be true, it is." Some folks never learn.
Arti
This country is prosperous because of the tax structure. Although I don't agree with most of the Bush tax proposal, I do agree fundamentally, that tax cuts do raise revenue. When people have extra money, they spend it, and thus greater revenue is realized which usually equates to JOBS.
The problem is that you can not spend more money than you take in. It is called a budget.
We are lucky to enjoy the tax rates we do in this country. It is one of the reasons people are always trying to get here to make it their home.
Read the history, and then think about it.
Jim K.
Chicago
BTW, the only reason this country is great is because each time the top %1 have tried to consolidate power solely amoungst themselves we have done something to stop them. America will only prosper is all Americans are allowed to participate. Trapping our citizens into a vicious cycle of debt and jobs that provide neither living wages nor a worthwhile experiance will only lead to our downfall.
This country has a laughably low tax rate compared to the rest of the devoloped world. While I have no love of the nanny state with its double digit unemployment, we have a lot of room for improvement.
However, if it is so bad, why are thousands of people trying to immigrate to the USA every year?
Mike, if you look back in history, and I know you know about history, there have always been rich and poor. In Europe, it usually was VERY VERY rich, and very very poor.
In the USA, there is a middle class, who by the way, has shouldered most of the tax burden over the years.
You may look at the rich and say you dispise them, but they will always be rich, and could care less. However, you could look at it as hey, I'm better off than a percentage of the people here. One thing I've learned is that life isn't fair, but we must make the best of it. If you bemoan the fact that there are rich that don't pay their fair share, you'll get bogged down. Don't let that happen to yourself - you'll become a bitter man.
But remember, you could also start your own business, or invent something, and thereby make millions of dollars. If you had those millions, would you still be talking about more taxes for the top 1%? Now be honest.
One other thing to remember, the top 1% gets the same number of votes that you do - ONE.
Use your elected officials to effect change.
Jim K.
Chicago
CG
But they have unequal and direct face-face access to government officials. Some opinions are more equal than others, and frequently those whose opinions are more equal will write legislation that the elected officials will then propose. The average citizen has much less of this type of access (or at least must work much harder to get it)
"Use your elected officials to effect change"
Yes. This is always true, and should always be encouraged.
Don't you, especially being so politically active? Some of you stories you've told here, leave an impression, that you were taken quite seriously.
Arti
I am, but I cannot afford to pay $50,000 in "soft" money to dine in the White House, and I cannot announce a summit meeting to which the Vicve President will come for dinner (the way Bill Gates can).
At the same time Justice Dept doesn't keep bugging you about some Internet Explorer either :-)
Arti
You'd THINK that with a "war" on, Microsoft might have been pursuaded to tighten their mainsails a bit. :(
Yes, but there is this thing called the Lorentz curve and it ranges from socialist utopia to dictator who ownes everything. Not since the turn of the centure have we seen a greater trend towards wealth concentration in this country.
But remember, you could also start your own business, or invent something, and thereby make millions of dollars. If you had those millions, would you still be talking about more taxes for the top 1%? Now be honest.
Yes, I would. Its insurance against poor starving masses with nothing to loose shooting me in a revolution. Furthermore, my utility function for $ wealth rapidly levels out. If I had millions a high tax rate would not significantly impact my well being. I would take more utility from the fact that my tax $ was going to build the things I like to railfan than having it to live in some sort of over opulent pleasure world.
In the USA, there is a middle class, who by the way, has shouldered most of the tax burden over the years.
True indeed. The marginal rate actually starts going down after like 200k. I find that reprehensible.
I am not, per se, against a stabilization of the top marginal rates: I benefited significantly from this in the 1970s in England when my father’s marginal rate went from 98% (ninety-eight, no lie!) to about 70%. I would be happy with the highest federal marginal rate being 50%, provided all the loopholes, havens, special funds etc, etc just disappeared. I would also lump capital gains in with any other income, and limit just how much mortgage interest can be deducted.
If nothing else, it might free up some of the army of drones who spend their lives finding ways round the tax code to do something more productive–like conduct proper audits of the Enrons of the world!
John
Where did you find that? The marginal tax rate caps out at 38.6% for every dollar above $307K and never goes down from there.
Arti
I don't really know where he's coming from with the $200K marginal rate decrease. Given the intricacies of the Alt Min Tax along with other phaseouts, marginal tax rates can actually be near 100% for a brief period right at around $150-200K.
CG
The only proble with Presidents bush tax cut is that the money derivived from the cut won't be going into the hands of businesses or persons that will spend it
The supply side argument has proven to be correct time and time again. We should be providing temporary tax cuts to businees to spur new purchaces of equiptment in the form or an excelerated depreciations schedule
Bush's tax cut does not do this.
Tax cut people to clain that tax cuts will stimulate the economy through greater spending seem to forget that if the government spent the money directly you get the same effect, just cutting out the middle man. The government is also in a unique position to spend the money on such goods that have low revenue return but high social return (like Subways).
Unfortunately, they are also in the unique position to spend the money on such goods that have low revenue return, low social return and high political return like _____________ (fill in the name of your favorite governmental boondoggle here).
One can argue all day and all night about whether the former or the latter happens more often.
CG
Unless the amount is major, there is no embarrassment factor: the news reporting is likely only to be in the district of the pork-proposer, where it generally is welcomed.
Without it, we'll never get people with enough grey matter to take these jobs. Very few politicians, left or right, are idiots. Most are very intelligent and could earn far more in the private sector than their government jobs pay them. Once you factor in the b.s. they have to put up with, there has to be some incentive beyond the simple salary in order for them to take the job.
The question is where the line gets drawn as to what is just politicos being politicos and what is corrupt behavior.
CG
We hope that is the case, and we hope that the people elected have an altruistic reason for holding public office, not the desire to get rich from it. It is just as unacceptable for a politician to line his pockets even a little bit as it is for a station agent in the subway to keep a little of the money coming into the booth for himself.
Tom
Arti
Arti
That is not a bad thing, and not necessarily inconsistent with being altruistic. There is nothing wrong with someone hoping that some day people will build statues and name avenues after him because of all the good he did for his fellow man. Ex president Jimmy Carter probably fits that description. No matter what else you say about him, Richard Nixon wanted to be remembered as a great statesman rather than just get rich in office.
Tom
That’s (effectively) a tax cut I applaud!
But not by the same proportion. we survived of course, but there is a reason why his policy was referred to as "voodoo" econopmics by the budget director.
Huh?? What Russian planners?
Tom
By the Reagan era, television in Western Europe was so prevalent and varied that the East Bloc could not totally block it. As more and more information from the Free World became available, the rulers of the Communist countries could no longer shut it off, and the people began to clamor for change. It was like the small snowball rolling down the snow covered hill - it keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Reagon's econonic policy, as wacko as it was, forced the Soviets to divert more and more money to defense and away from supporting the client states, and the rest is history. It was wonderful to watch, and was somewhat unreal to those of us who lived through the Cold War.
And the the proof that freedom reigned in the former Soviet client states was the "Velvet Revolution", when Czeckoslovakia divided into the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic - without firing a shot. Two states completly friendly to each other that live as friends, but couldn't be "married" to each other. What's really wierd is that the only mint is in the Czech Republic and the only currency printing plant is in the Slovak Republic. So the mint makes coinage for both countries and so the currency plant prints for both.
But the collapse of the Soviet Union had nothing to do with Regan's tax cuts. Many believe it was his increase in defense spending, particularly Star Wars which caused the Soviets to throw in the towel with the arms race. My belief is that the younger leaders, starting with Gorbachev recognized that Soviet style communism with the central planning did not work as well as western style market economies, and that Western armies were not getting ready to march on Russia (as Patton had urged at the end of WWII), and therefore it was in Russia's best interest not to try to hold the Soviet Union together by force, and try to improve trade relations with Western Europe.
Keep in mind that the older generation of leaders were wedded to the idea that communism was the natural evolution from capitalism and the 1929 market crash was the beginning of the end of capitalism, but that capitalists would do everything in their power to preserve the old order and destroy the Soviet Union.
To a great extent you can say that it was TV that brought about pressure from all the eastern European people for a change to more consumer goods and less military spending.
Tom
I think it was a mix of both. And yes, citizens pressed their governments for reforms which wold lead to a better standard of living (consumer goods).
It all added up to NATO's winning a strategic victory over the Warsaw Pact without firing a shot.
Germany and France were some of the worst enemies in history, and yet they use the exact same currency. At some point, Czechia and Slovakia will use the Euro.
1) I got to meet one subtalker (and his wife) who I've been anxious to meet for a very long time. This was the highlight of my trip.
2) I filled in some holes in my Lionel Train collection.
3) I got to speak to Mike Wolf (Mike of Mikes Train House - better known as MTH). I voiced my disappointment at the cheap substitute for the R-77 loco included in the MTH worktrain set. I suggested that he re-tool and produce a more prototypical loco for subway fans. I also mentiioned it to the K-Line R&D people since they are getting into the subway work equipment market. Let's see if either heeds the suggestion.
While there, I saw the new R-12 subway set. I believe it'll outsell the redbird set. I also saw the model of the R-17 in 'Redbird' paint. It'll be another winner - saleswise. I did tell Mike that the Graffiti on the R-17 'Graffiti' set looked more like ART than graffiti. I promised to send him photos of real graffiti hits. Hopefully MTH has not begun to produce the sets and changes can be made.
I'd like to join in and post some of my images. Images that may never be seen in my subway calendar and as well as other miscellany stuff.
So to make a long story short, I'm looking for a web hosting site that is reliable and recommended. Also a site that does remote posting as well. If any of you can be of assistance, please use my e-mail above. Also, any site I should steer clear of, I would appreciate it too.
Thank you,
Bill "Newkirk"
If all you want to do is post photos that other people can look at, then I would recommend webshots: http://www.webshots.com/. It also appears to support picking up images and putting them into pages coming from elsewhere: exactly what you need to do when you want to include one of your images in a post on SubTalk. I assume this is what you mean by “remote posting.” The downside to this “free” service is the old pop-up ads.
If you want to build everything from scratch and have your own web site (which then means you can write your own articles, etc, etc), it’s more work and tends to cost money. Any of the Yahoo or Geocities (which is now part of Yahoo) free sites have limitations on taking only images, and they have all sorts of extremely irritating popups on each page–that take several clicks to remove.
A friend recommended http://www.webhost4life.com/, which has a package for $4.95/month, except you need to pay for a year in advance, and there’s a $19.95 set up fee, and there will also be a DNS fee for the newkirk domain. I moved a web site there a couple of weeks ago and the service was good and the move painless.
Hope this helps,
John
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
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Perhaps.
But after all the horsekaboodle we've had here recently,
'Identifying' should best be considered a godsend....
especially in a public forum with others of the same
common ON-TOPIC interest.
As always the crew at Branford did a great job under adverse conditions. Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, Hartbus, John S, Jeff H, Jeff Rosen and others did a great job running cars, instructing trainee motormen (and women) and dispatching. Goerge Boucher and the ladies did a great job with the buffet style lunch.
Due to the rain the dispatcher would not let some of the cars come out and play. 6688 (R-17) and 4573 (BQT Semi-Convertible) were no shows as was Manhattan Railway 41.
BRT 1227 made a few runs on her own and IND 1689 and IRT 5466 ran as a train.
There was a sizable turnout but I don't have an exact count. Of course BMT Man was there so that made it official.
Thanks to all the Branford crew for a bright spot on a rainy day.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The trolleys included Coneecticut 775, TARS 629, Johnston 357 and Montreal 2001. Connecticut 1609 made her first regular runs after being restored.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
A word of thanks to Sparky, Lou, and all those at Branford who had given my mother a warm welcome feeling, and a possible future of railfaning.
Jimmy and family
:)
Sorry you missed your turn on the R-9. Several of our guest missed their first choice because they were busy riding another car when their name was first called (no fun just hanging out waiting in the rain for your name to be called when there was so much action to be enjoyed). I know of at least three that this happend to inluding my friend Brooklyn.
Here's a list of the SubTalkers that I remember there. If I left anyone out, just chime in, remember the memory is the first to go!!! Even though it's redundant, I will mention the ones Larry mentioned just so I have a full list.Larry, Redbird R33TransitChuckGKool DBrooklynMr T (Thurston), John S. (Sparky), Lou from BrooklynJeff HaknerBRT Man (Doug)Hart BusAnon-E-Mouse (Chris) I'm sure there were others who's handles I didn't know and also people who I will remember as soon as I hit post message.
Among the non-SubTalkers there was Steve Super Cop/Tunnel Rat who was giving his arguments proving the existance of 76th Street! We should all chip in to give him either a 'puter or WebTV so he could argue with us on line!!!
To everyone there, It was great seeing you all!!!
Saw the BMT standard in the back yard, wish it was out for action but it will not be ready for awhile.
So YO HO, dewd! I'm hoping to meet up with ya and the rest NEXT TIME and take you for a ride you'll never forget. Heh. Those who toured the line with Bingbong and I the LAST time I was up there came away with a day they'll not forget. :P
Unca Selkirk's a FIRM believer in "tune for maximum smoke" and a "happy car is a car where everyone's on the floor in a gesture of TRUE subtalk equality." Wonder if Unca Lou has gotten over the white knuckle ride I gave him last time, getting 1689 up to warp 6. Heh.
Well, now that we've gotten rid of that pesky section break down by the curve, you can make warp 7 on the inbound run :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RAMMING SPEEEeeeeeeed! Heh. If it wasn't for that cautionary requirement, I would have taken the damned S curve at 55 MPH, ESPECIALLY with the official Luciano on the museum on board. Way I figure, is if I could hold back and then shoot the timers on the D train, doing that piddly S curve wouldn't have amounted to a hill'o'beans to 1689 since it was an upgrade and gravity and the force was with us. I might have coasted changing directions, but I wouldn't have fed her air because of a piddly curve. Heh.
DAMN! Gotta get back there and show some of these subtalkers that arnines CAN do a pirouette on four of eight wheels and STILL find the rail on the track return. :)
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER (with Vulcan sign)!
Anyone who's ridden with me on 1689 knows that I take ALL rules seriously and run a train properly, but as one with experience in running Arnines, I've been known to let them WAIL when the iron's right, and the weather makes no difference to an Arnine. I know what they can do, and what they CAN'T, and maintain the proper RESPECT at all times ... but to me, pushing the envelope within the KNOWN parameters ... well, it's just plain FUN.
And if I can't have FUN on a railroad, might as well pay TWU dues and beach-slap the trolls as I turn in my tools and badges. :)
Branford is FUN, and thanks to the likes of Unca Dougie, Unca Lou, Unca Thurston, and Unca Sparky, folks like me can HAVE some fun and see how many pants bricks we can collect at the end of the run. Heh.
This member of the Gandy Dancer gang says, you better not, unless you are prepare to nail those spikes back in < grin >
We'll even make sure Bing Bong gets a good shot of you doing it ;-)
You *KNOW* I wouldn't screw around, but Unca Lou can tell ya, I *know* where the envelope *is*. Heh. And apologies once again for the foamers tromping up the floor of 6688 last we were together - if I had KNOWN that Archbishop Sparky was granting penance, I woulda been the first to dip the ropes into the bucket, along with Bingbong. Unlike so many others, we ain't AFRAID of work, but at our advanced ages, we're a bit SLOW at it. Heh.
But I've ALWAYS been a disciple of:
1. You MADE the mess, you clean it up.
2. You BROKE it, you BOUGHT it.
3. Hey look! It's WANNABE! FREE autographs from a CURRENT TWU brother!
4. Was that SANDRA BULLOCK on that trolley?
You KNOW though, we have respect. Now stop SCREWING with my damned sidewqalk act, willya? :)
And with Selkirk banana-plugging the controller switch groups, no NEED to drop below 50. Proper application of crayons to leaf-switches riding on the cams does WONDERS. Even more so, knowing WHICH wire was cut to remove them pesky field-shunt coils. A properly applied Lousiville slugger TRUMPS any stupid T-handles sticking out of the ground. One thing about working Arnines, you LEARN timers, timing, hitting homeballs and MAKING them go "ka-ching" and clear to green in time. Heh.
But if, INDEED, Sandra Bullock was ON that trolley. Sorry guys, handle time cancelled, this cab door will NOT open until the Bishop shows up to CONFIRM the cab's SAINTHOOD. SCWOO a dumba$$ "blessing," we're talking "POLYGAMY" here :)
I've not had the pleasure of 5466 since she got to BRANFORD, but when she ran on the THIRD AVENUE EL, (Bender speaking) I HAD HER like a cheap Nintendo game in *MTA* REVENUE SERVICE! Heh.
And yes, I *RAN* her on the third avenue el! Words cannot DESCRIBE how much I wanna have her again! We're OLD FRIENDS! :)
Didn't you sneak even so much as a peak at 5466 last October?
I'd NEVER give Unca Bill, you, Dougie, and others *MORE* work ... all I can do presently is be GRATEFUL for the DAMNED hard work you guys do there as "da crew" ... it's one thing to grab handles and get one's yaya's, it's QUITE another thing to EARN it! Just cause I *ran* Arnines doesn't entitle me to DOOWAHDIDDLDOO ... It was fun because YOU GUYS gave me the "gift" without "schoolcar" solely becauwe I proved to you, Unca Lou and others that I already *HAD* the training ... but I'd NEVER touch the other cars without KNOWING that I was "beyond training" on that ONE car. Now that I know that I've already *run* 5466, I'm not as nervous, but I have *tremendous* respect for subway equipment that cannot POSSIBLY be replaced in the event of a whoopsie. Reason ENOUGH to not go there. :)
But for all my kidding, y'all KNOW (Movie: "Strange Brew" with the "McKenzie Brothers of Great White North fame) ... NO WAY WOULD I CRASH THIS, EH? THIS IS A BBER TRUCK! :)
But yeah, I keep forgetting that some folks cannot realize that it's tens of thousands of TONS of mass in motion. When I worked for the Tee-yay, I had the proper RESPECT for what the motors were moving ... and that any moron can make a train move, takes an "Einstein" to stop it. Takes Al Gore to make it stop at the marker. Hahahahahaha.
I was pleased though in still being able to get her there, even if I couldn't quite do the patented TA "rat-a-tat-tat" ... heh.
Spit happens on railroads. I woulda just let out a hearty "oh nertz" then get on the horn and demanding to know who screwed up the railroad, blissfully unaware as to the TRUE cause. Well, you know how it is in a cab - you're always the last to know WHY you're staring down cherries in a row and no payoff. :)
E above middle C was nothing to sneeze at.
Keep in mind that the IND has broad curves to begin with, so trains can go somewhat faster without derailing.
And STILL we had timers and grade timers. I just couldn't imagine having to work the Eastern division on the old QJ line ... woof.
It was better in the Bronx and south of West 4th ...
Back then the motto was "We'll get you there ... eventually."
Usually if they didn't cross you back to the express track on the north end of 59th, it meant blowing through all the local stops and going back over at 135th. That one time was a surprise. Had to take it pretty slow also.
True, but there's no more blinking lights for that "third rail gap" experience :(.
Glad to see all of you who could make it, missed a few who I had expected to see (OnTheJuice, SUBWAYSURF, and our illustrious webmaster - c'mon Dave, you wouldn't have melted), had a great time as usual.
Back again in two weeks for regular ops.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Prior committment or not, it's not like the world ends when you
don't show up at BERA.. :s
Hey... didja know Danbury Rail Museum is having a RailFAIR and
Museum Open House thingie this weekend??? No?
Amen to the UPCOMING EVENTS link, kids... :)
Branford Nice Branford... ya ya... BUT let's not forget those OTHER
transit-themed museums which could benefit from our nickel and dime
patronage y'all!
Variety is the SPICE of life.
Nice to meet your crazy self up there.
That would be Irene... the one he came with... why she puts up with him I don't know... let's just say the gesture was probably merited :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My OWN perverted joy here is trading war stories with folks who KNOW what 70 pounds means. Who don't GIGGLE when you say "butt plug" or "angle COCK" without somebody's pants stiffening at the thought and us all getting wiggy. Railroad people just DEAL with it, it's the foamers who leave the damned stains. Let's FACE it, my fellow UMD's ... if the car cleaners didn't have to hose down the car at relay time, then the damned bishop WOULD give the cab "sainthood." :)
But yeah, I can understand only *TOO* well, given moroninc habits by tattlers why we can't HAVE the favorite "war stories" and why we don't get any interesting "inside dirt" anymore. And also why the same TWU brothers and sisters wonder about some "foamers" who've proven why we can't have FUN anymore. And the politicians that whack out over what they read here and take revenge on individuals. (hint-hint) But yeah, I *do* understand the lack of enthusiasm even if it didn't come off as Mark might have intended ...
As to ME, I *love* Branford, and the folks involved. No clunkers YET! But even though I couldn't afford to get there and WANTED to, there IS another whole planet out here that doesn't have rails. After 30 years, it was a *GAS* to run an Arnine again, but there ARE other things that are better than trains. I married a foamer! It DOES get better! :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I refer to it as sawing wood. Talk about missing it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're hoping to have a small class for he & a couple of others who can't make the March classes.
BTW, SPARKY Classes are on Wednesday's in 2003 starting April 30.
If I have candidates, I'll run a class as I have in the past.
I also may recruit a certain S\A as an assistant [de]structor. Email privately to set the dates. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Just to keep the numbers straight, it was CONNCO 1602, for which I was
the designated pilot. It was the official "Thank You" run for the
members of the "Amherst Railway Society" of Mass., who have been
friends of "Projects" at Branford for a good time now. They came down
with a couple dozen for the day on a Bus [that shook up a lot of folks,
when I announced it's arrival after a scheduled "Power Off"
to get the LO\9 ready for service. The trip was run by George
Papuga, project leader Eastbound, and some short commentary by
George, Bill Wall, Branford's "Shaker" & I fetched the questions
of costs for it intended use, as the "Party Car". Rusty King of the
CONNCO crew returned it Westbound to the Yard Area.
Something not invisioned in 1911, when the car was built by Wason in
Springfield, Mass. for CONNCO as a city car, ala IRT seating.
1602 is a streetcar version of an IRT HI-V, cement flooring and longitudal seating.
Except, it was built to run under Trolley wire and as a solo unit, not MUed.
The "Birthday Parties" at Branford, does show the youngsters, what a Steel
Wheeled Trolley was that there elders rode.
But these are who we want to reach, this is the future of the "Trolley Museums", worldwide.
It carries the routing of "Special Car", which it is for that special
occasion.
8-) ~ Sparky
It was difficult because of the weather to get an exact count, but
a guesstimation was beyond 60 that did attend on Saturday.
Also having looked over the Guest List for lunch, many selected not
to attend in the "Rainy Weather". So at the end of the day, I'm
sure many stuffed themselves, PAID or NOT, well someone did pay and
it would have gone to waste.
Some of the missing were also posters on this board, I was hoping to
chat with.
Also Thanks to the contingent from the "Seashore Trolley Museum",
who made the trek South on I-95 from Boston & beyond. Good seeing
you folks. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Thanks for "Brighton(ing)" my day and taking a membership at Branford.
Now I have to atologize to you publicly for calling you out last week.
As for the party crasher, well "another day, another way" he'll pay
his dew. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I know it was mentioned previously in a tread, but Thanks again to
Dana, "BERA Signals", Bowers for an organized method of dispatching,
with equality to ALL. Even the late arriver, whom kept ringing
certain members cell phones ALL day on Saturday.
>>>"George Boucher and the ladies did a great job with the buffet style lunch."<<<
Well, besides George B, the ladies on the service line were Kathy
Slinsky & Sandy Papaga, assisted by Rob Paradis & Rich Slinsky.
Also thanks to my bride, Lucille Sikorski [Mrs. Sparky]
for assisting the "Dispatcher" & handling the lunch tickets.
George Boucher also tended to the "Gift Shop" later in the
I know it was mentioned previously in a tread, but Thanks again to
Dana, "BERA Signals", Bowers for an organized method of dispatching,
with equality to ALL. Even the late arriver, whom kept ringing
certain members cell phones ALL day on Saturday.
>>>"George Boucher and the ladies did a great job with the buffet style lunch."<<<
Well, besides George B, the ladies on the service line were Kathy
Slinsky & Sandy Papaga, assisted by Rob Paradis & Rich Slinsky.
Also thanks to my bride, Lucille Sikorski [Mrs. Sparky]
for assisting the "Dispatcher" & handling the lunch tickets.
George Boucher also tended to the "Gift Shop" later in the day.
And two other members of the signal department, who tried to resolve
some signal malfunctions in the severe weather, Jeff H and Dave Barazza [sub talkers].
The signals at Branford, east of Narragansett interchange are still a "work in progress" and
Mother Nature emphasized some of the weak points this weekend. All moves were conducted via radio, where required, except one operator failure, who bridged the GAP, and operating manually, we could not clear the signal. Yours truly did the walk to establish, what was the cause of the fault.
I'm sure there were other activities about that I missed, staying
at the shack, till called to duty, as required.
George Papaga and Rusty King were hosts in the CONNCO Subshop, where
the next primary target is #865. Bill Wall, I'm sure was talking up his ongoing project on the shop pit track PSNJ #27. Teddy, Branford's Master Mechanics, was about fingers crossed, that with all the play, notin busted.
Well, I can say we all had an enjoyable day, didn't say dry, but we
had a blast. We departed at 1900 and they were still at it. Thanks goodness, we only do this once a year.
Enough of my verbiage, Im outta here. Maybe a little bit late, but I wanted ALL to get recognition, as this was a team effort. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Actually that had nothing to do with "work in progress". It was
a bona-fide insulated joint failure. A metal tie plate had
shifted sufficiently to bridge the joint at signal 21 which,
combined with the soaked ballast condition, knocked down
the two track circuits intermittently.
Thanks for the clarification, but do I get a 50 for being half right,
as to "Mother Natures highligting a failure" or should we say being plain nasty. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
It'd be appreciated.
I recently posted a few hundred new photos of the London Underground, did you all miss them?
I spent most of my grade school years in Paris, and a few incidents made me give up pursuing the hobby. And although I lived in London for only a few years, I have a nice collection of London transit photos from 1978-1980. I have a few prints from those days with me, here in my NYC home, but most of them are at my parents' house in Japan. Last I went there, most of my stuff were put in storage space, and I didn't have the time to dig through. One day I'd like to get the negatives and post some here.
The way I take photos, I'd probably do no better than 75 photos in one week. I wait for crowds to leave the platform and look for the right angle, which translates into taking about 1 photo every 10-15 minutes, on average.
I guess I'm pretty lucky in finding shots with few people. In Sao Paulo, each station sees on average over 55,000 people/day, with some stations as high as 300,000 to 600,000/day, so they are always full of people. I was able to get some empty station shots with my constant waiting.
When I had my 2 megapixel camera I travelled with four 64 mb cards. In Paris I think there was one day where I filled them all up and went back to the hotel to offload, then went back out again!
When I got my 4 megapixel camera I added one 128 mb card to the original four 64s.
I recently got a 6 megapixel camera and so I've upgraded to two 512 mb Compact Flash cards (cheap nowadays at around $75 apiece-- look for rebates). One 512 mb card can hold around 150 JPEGS at the camera's largest size and finest quality. (300 between them) That's usually more than enough for a day's shooting but if it was absolutely necessary you can always adjust the size or quality down a little. On this camera the next setting down in either size OR quality will get you around 230 pictures per 512 meg.
My current arsenal of SmartMedia cards includes (1) 128MB, (2) 64 MB, (1) 32MB, and (2) 8 MB. The 128MB card holds 159 photos at full size and 2/3 Quality. The 64MB cards hold half of that. I've never actually had to use any more than the 128MB and the two 64MB in one day.
Also, does your new 6MP camera use SD (secure digital)? It seems that all of the new cameras are using that standard.
---Choo Choo
I hate toys like that.
---Choo Choo
My friend uses it to attach a picture to the phone number of girls he meets in clubs to remember who they are
It is not ment for seious photography
So what good is a toy like that, other than a Spy-Cam?
You are better off getting a color PDA type device for wireless web viewing. Even then it is not going to be the same experience as using you PC at home
The current generation of phones and 2.5 g wireless network like sprint vision has marginble useabilty charteristics
It's is more a toy then anything else.
another issue I read with sprint vision is that when you send a picture to another phone it send sit as an attachment unlike the phones over in japan where displays right away
I've only really used the "new toy" on one occasion-- the open house/roadeo at Coney Island a couple weekends ago. Of the pictures I took at CI, the interior photos are pretty much as-is from the camera, no cropping or photoshopping (although I discarded a lot of test/bad takes- I was shooting in full manual mode most of the time, keeping the aperture as wide as possible and adjusting the shutter as necessary). The exterior photos are both photoshopped (to add a little digital fill flash into the shadowy areas) and cropped (in the case of stuff that was far away from me when I took the picture).
And you're right, I always resize down for the site because no one is going to wait to download a 3 mb image (or even 1 mb); it doesn't really "look good" if you have to pan your browser in both directions to see the whole image; and even if everyone had super fast cable modems and would like 1600x1200 1 meg images, the server bandwidth costs money! I keep all the original images on CDROM for future reference.
I've never used more than my 128 MB CF card in one day. Probably not even half.
Also, does your new 6MP camera use SD (secure digital)? It seems that all of the new cameras are using that standard.
I hope that doesn'y become a standard. Like you I have an arsenal of (CF) cards because my Dell Axim uses them as well. Right now its pretty convenient having the camera and pocketpc using the same stuff, I can proof photos a lot better than on the measly 1.8" screen on the camera.
How ironic, I'm THE most IMPATIENT person you'd ever meet. I guess things are different for me when railfanning :-)
I'm going to be in the market for a new digital camera in a couple of months to replace my broken one. I'll probably get a 3 or 4 MP one, whatever costs between $300-400.
From my experience in the 70s.
Paris:
I was told not to take any pictures several times when I lived there (69-74) and was told the same thing when I visited in 78.
OTOH, a few motormen let me in to their cabs.
Madrid:
Forget about it. As soon as I pulled out a camera, a station agent came running to me. This was in the Franco days and it could be much easier now.
London:
Like I said before, no problems at all.
Well, from what I've been reading here, surprisingly, to me anyway, it appears that it isn't all that easy to take simple photographs of systems in many countries. After all the criticism (not specifically from anybody on this board) given to this country and its' political climate this little bit of data is interesting. Apparently, the average citizen of these places doesn't feel they could take a simple camera with them and snap shots of the trains, due to, uh, security concerns. I find that weird. All those cities worldwide with rail transit....could it be that only in New York is there even an interest in photographing the local system? Moscow, Argentina, Madrid, Berlin, Sydney, Tokyo, wherever, the inclination to do so isn't there? Damn.....
--Mark
---Choo Choo
Why he doesn't chat here? I don't know. But there's a lot of people who might have valuable information to contribute who don't chat here. I'm sure one of the reasons is "not interested in the flamage."
In Atlanta, I got stopped and got searched and was held for two hours while the stupid-ass cops figured out that there was nothing to get me with.
Try www.metro.ru
If you don't speak Russian, try www.translate.ru for a translation service.
If you don't speak Russian, try www.translate.ru for a translation service."
Checked it out. Good stuff! Don't worry `bout the Russian language. A web page is a web page is a web page. If it can be clicked I'll dig it. Thanks for the post.
P.S. I still ain't seeing any "amateur" photos from London on this board yet.....
What do you mean by "amateur"? There are large numbers of London (and other UK) pictures on this board taken by various people who are not (as far as I know) professional photographers. Some of them were taken by visiting Americans including our board owner, David Pirmann, but others were taken by locals. Simon Billis took a lot of pictures on our Subtalkers London trip last autumn, which I believe he sent to David, but they haven't gone up yet owing to the backlog of photos that David has waiting to mount on the board.
No offense meant. That's why I put quotes around it. I was refering to posts that have photos attached to them. I just figured that the same methodology would apply worldwide, i.e.: someone has someplace online where they can store picture files, inexpensively, the pictures that they may have snapped with a digital camera as they were railfanning in their respective locales. Snap the shots, download `em to their storage site, post a message incorporating the web address of the specific shot. Simple, random on-the-fly photos. And that ain't seen much on this board, outside of, well, New York subways. Pity.
With the availability of digital cameras all around the "Western World" there truely must be a paucity of transit railfans if we ain't seeing those random shots once in a while. Guys waiting on platforms, overhead shots of local train yards from streets above the tracks, interesting rail cars in service, stationhouses, etc. Everyday stuff commuters pass all the time.
Guess I will take a look at what's archived here and elsewhere. Not that I'm such a huge fan of foreign systems per say. But the cool thing about posting photos here on subtalk is the way they become part of the "logic of the post". They're slipped into the text flow smoothly and pertinently (is that a word?). Nice, like graphical leaves floating down a river of words.
9:00AM Penn Station McDonalds (towards the 7 Avenue side)
wayne
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The top speed on the CTA 'L' is 55 MPH, which is obtained in a lot of places on the system. Remember the CTA is mostly on elevated structure and median of expressways with only a small portion of trackage in the subway.
The ASC takes over when the cars exceed 55 - 58 MPH.
Although the trains/cars are not as long as those on the NYCTA, the CTA trains routinely run fast - even on the elevated structures. I was coming home on the Ravenswood train this afternoon, and the operator hit full speed between Sedgewick and the S-curves at North & Halsted.
Great ride!
Jim K.
Chicago
No, the poster is saying that is the top speed ABOVE GROUND. The top speeds in the entire systems are obtained BELOW GROUND. But my GPS unit will not work down there, so for the purposes of my scientific experiment, I only care about ABOVE GROUND speeds.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
How do you know how fast you were going on the Q? You can't see the speedometer on the slants.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But if you mean reroutes...
1)Super 5 Express from E 180 to outside Dyre
2)Sea Beach Express
3)Late J from Marcy to Bway Jct (happens quite often, actually-based on the look of 45 MPH, I would say it does at least 50+).
4)#1 between 116 and 137 (centre track)
I cannot vouch for the A between Rockaway Blvd and the Rockaways as I have only been down this line twice (two round trips) and was R-46's both times. The R110-B doesn't go much faster (was observing, not riding).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
NOBODY was going to get into the operating area. He even muttered about me being a damn railfan or a company spy.
Another engineman I chatted with on one of my many forrays on the LIRR when I lived in Philadelphia, was very railfan friendly. Showed me the cab set up and how the ACS system worked.
Being from ex-Reading operating, it was all very foreign to me. I rode many a mile on the head end of RDG MU and RDC trains in the late 1960's, all through the 1970's, when my engineer friend retired. Frank used to say he didn't like people looking over his shoulder. He asked me if I would like it if somebody was always looking at you while you were at your desk? I guess I couldn't argue with him. However, I did learn a lot about railroading back then.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
The 7 is fast too. Woodside to Junction Blvd.
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
VAN Interlocking Flatbush NY
..........to yard
__________/_______ to BROOK
....../......\....
_____/________\___ to BROOK
The trains have to back out of the yard then reverse to BROOK interlocking (Flatbush). Furthermore, VAN tower that controled the yard was closed (control probably moved to BROOK) and powered yard switches may have been de-powered.
However, during weekdays, the trains are layed up at Carlton Yard between rush hours due to the high volume of Flatbush-bound and/or originating trains. Otherwise, the trains will be layed up at Jamaica/Hillside.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
When the R44 was on the LIRR, it was
Cold
Snowy
Workday
Regents exams was given in high school and
between rush hours.
I counted Doug, Raymond, Steve, maybe Joe, and myself. No where close to hunreds.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I have a few photos of the R42 in Colorado somewhere in my collection.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
But still, wouldn't it be easier to buy a standard IR blaster for your computer and point it at your remote? Your computer can receive IR, so I'm sure you're aware that it can do the opposite.
If you have the Spider-man DVD, and watch the beginning parts of the movie with the "Factoid" pop-ups turned on, here is what they tell you when you first see the 7 Train in the background (but it's a different scene than the one Choo Choo took a screen cap of):
"Peter Parker lives in New York City, in the borough of Queens. This was filmed on location in Forrest Hills, on 69th Road."
WRONG! Not only is that NOT Forest Hills, and not only did they SPELL Forest Hills wrong to begin with, but that's 44th St. just north of Queens Blvd.!
And now that I look at the screen cap that Choo Choo took, Peter and MJ are walking down a TOTALLY different street in that scene, even though that SHOULD be 44th St. again since that is the street the school bus goes down that Peter is supposed to catch.
And now that I think about it, when MJ is on the school bus near the start of the movie, it was wrong of her to say that, "He's been chasing us since Woodhaven Blvd.!" since Woodhaven Blvd. is NOWHERE near there.
And DON'T get me started on the "loud freight train horn" sound effects that they gave the 7 Train! As Thurston, R-30, Cleanairbus, Lou From Blooklyn, that Dave guy, and myself know, the 7 has a wimpy clown horn!
SQUEAK-SQUEAK! >=-(
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
We do good until after Ft Hamilton Pkwy in which we make that turn into 9 Av. Then we get stuck between 9 Av & 36 St for about 10 minutes for a unknown reason and we go through that excrutiating turn into 36 St, make the local stops via 4 Av until I reach Dekalb Av where I get off at to catch the BB bound Q to go home. So I wait about 2 minutes until a R68 Q comes and I take it to my stop Newkirk Av & then I go home. 1 strange thing was that ALL the rollsigns on every W I saw only had the Coney Island dest. but the other sign [where the Astoria rollsign should be] was all rolled up and was blank, inside and out. Why was that done?
For those who want to ride it, you still have the rest of today to ride the express [and you have a RF opportunity with the R40's if you catch one].
R68A 5092 (W)
R68 2912 (Q)
The West End express will be running Sunday as well, and I hope to catch it, stopwatch in hand, after Peggy's tour.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
Arti
Arti
Why? you feared that some pyscho is going to rape you?
I probably won't be around this board for ten years, so it probably won't happen.
One can only hope!
One can only hope!
Yes, that is the only thing you can do, since you certainly can't post anything useful!
HYPOCRITE ALERT!!!
Go to any park. It's not like there are guys waiting at the entrances with video cams or something, radioing signals to other guys inside the park when a "likely suspect" enters. Ya want danger just drive on any highway where folks do 20 to 30 mph over the posted limit. And go weaving in and out of lanes even in the rain. That's dangerous. But please stop with the "Is the area "safe" to go to?" jive. If you don't feel comfortable just leave. Sheesh.
Before he was Mayor there were many parks in the city where it wasn't safe to go, or at least in parts of them, even in broad daylight. Yes, that included Central Park. I'm not just talking muggings, I'm talking murder. It definitely included pretty much all of Fort Greene Park--I was particularly aware of that because it looked so nice from the Myrtle Avenue L. Prospect Park was pretty safe, but only if you didn't stray from the main paths.
The problem was made worse because regular people just out for a stroll wouldn't go in many parks, which were generally run down and security was laughable. Lindsay opened up at least the major parks with security and publicity and the presence of large numbers of people helped a lot.
The Manhattan Canal Street Style Roasted Herbed BBQ American Pig with a touch of garlic and honey served with Pork Fried Rice and pork egg roll and a medium soda combo for just $3.99.
You see, fools have always been wary of the wise, and nobody on Subtalk is more foolish than you and most of your other respondents.
wayne
Nobody thought I was thinking of parks that are by themselves dangerous in their physical layout.
Arti
I also suggest not trying to use the road in Central Park between 10 AM and 5 PM on summer weekend afternoons -- inexperienced cyclists and roller bladers.
CG
Over the past few days I was thinking of a plan in my head that could make the subways more solvent, maintain 24-hour service, better maintain the infrastructure, and heighten the rider experience over the current system. Without knowing anywhere near the entire picture of rapid transit operations and the choreography involved, I feel that the plan I am about to present has no real insurmountable drawbacks if the will was there to implement it. I invite you to burden it to its breaking point, or amend it so that it could, in fact, be viable with similar spirit in mind. Okay, here it goes:
BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 10:00PM AND 6:00AM, ON FOUR-TRACK LINES, CLOSE DOWN ALL NON-EXPRESS, NON-TRANSFER STATIONS. EVEN IN MANHATTAN. ON TWO-TRACK LINES, STOP ONLY AT THOSE STATIONS WITH THE HIGHEST THIRD OF INCOMING AND/OR OUTGOING TRAFFIC DURING THE OVERNIGHT HOURS.
At ten o’clock in the evening, the final local stop will be made. After that, regardless of where the train is or when it left its point of origin, it will immediately skip all unauthorized stops. At six o’clock in the morning, the opposite will occur. The train will stop at the next platform, regardless of when it left its origin.
Doing this will produce the following benefits:
- You won’t need to pay as many station attendants at the closed stations. The remaining day can be split between two nine-hour shifts, allowing one hour for opening the station and one hour for closing. The closed stations can be cleaned and maintained far more efficiently during these off hours.
- You can either have more trips (shorter headways) with existing service levels, or fewer trains operating, as they will cover more ground in less time. The latter choice will mean more human resources savings. The former choice will probably mean more ridership as people will not have to wait as long for a train. Either way, it would mean a quicker trip overall as fewer stops are being made. Less time spent in transit means more discretionary time for the rider.
- On four-track lines, either of the two tracks may be put out of service for maintenance with minimal impact on ridership. More maintenance, performed quicker and better, can be performed under the guarantee of having no interruptions every twenty minutes. Trains can run express on either the express or local track, stopping only at the express and transfer stations. If there is a transfer point on a local stop along a four-track line, only one of the local tracks will be put OOS if necessary on any given day so riders could backtrack at the next express stop. On two-track lines, if one track is being maintained, utilize wrong-railing through the affected segment instead of bus shuttles or two-step service, as fewer stops will most likely be made through the segment, allowing for more trains to pass through the two-way segment safer.
The only drawback I see is that people will be forced to either board or exit a train far from where they would have normally wanted to, and this will be unsafe for a variety of reasons. Here is the solution:
- Establish Dollar Van stands at station exits where riders can pay one dollar to a van entrepreneur who will take passengers to their door from the nearest express station. This will create jobs and produce tax income for the city in licensing fees and income tax paid by newly- or super-employed individuals who will gladly work those hours and conditions for additional income. Riders will be safer in that they will be brought directly to their front doors from the subway exit. If they are entering the system from a station not served, they can call the dollar van to pick them up at their door and bring them to the nearest express station to continue their journey.
I can already hear the howls of the poverty industry folk who state that many riders can’t afford an extra dollar or two a day on their transporation costs. To this I say, Nonsense! It is a question of priorities in a majority of the cases. Money has a mysterious way of appearing when one’s back is against the wall. If it means one less six-pack of beer or carton of cigarettes every so often, then this plan will indirectly produce dividends in lower Medicaid and other health care costs and a better quality of life for the poor in other less tangible manners. In any event, if, for whatever reason, a rider doesn’t want to use a dollar van and wishes to walk (that, in itself, a healthful activity), my plan will provide for:
- Having Transit Bureau or neighborhood precinct police patrol the corridor under/over which the subway travels. Like palace guards, have them move in perpetually opposite directions; two cars for any predetermined length of line. There will surely be heightened pedestrian activity along the surface right-of-way; itself creating an atmosphere of safety in numbers. Additionally, who knows how many businesses that would otherwise be closed during these hours could remain open if they know they would have additional foot traffic during what would have been slack hours, creating further sets of watchful eyes, and still more private-sector employment opportunites?
My aim is to try and bring the greatest good to the greatest number, instead of being one-size-fits-all and not fitting a majority of the people well. Again, I don’t see this plan as totally air-tight. For one thing, how will the Bleecker Street transfer issue be addressed? There is no turning back if the southbound local track on the East side IRT is taken out of service one night for maintenance. Maybe disallow that transfer with enough advance notice on those days. How will movements such as garbage trains be handled with shorter headways? Maybe better use of switching by paying a few more towermen against the savings of hundreds of booth clerks.
Well, there it is. I submit this plan with the utmost of respect and love for the subway system, as well as consideration for the welfare of the City of New York. Again, if there are operational deficiencies I have overlooked, I would like to know about them. Please don’t find some sociological weakness affecting an isolated section of the system and project it over the entire plan. This plan is applied equally across all neighborhoods along the system, regardless of class, race, income, or creed. Every rider will have to make similar adjustments. How each rider chooses to adjust is his/her personal business.
Anyway, I said I was leaving the board, and I went back on my word. Having recently graduated from operator training at Branford, and being kept in the loop of activities many SubTalkers have planned for the Museum over the coming weeks and months, I must say I was wrong in wanting to leave in the first place, and ask for your forgiveness. I can be, and have been, irascible at times as well, and should not discount others for this trait lest I be discounted too. All of you comprise a great group of guys and gals with whom I enjoy a great hobby not too easily understood by others, and in unity, there is strength. God bless you all.
Bleecker isn't the only transfer affected. What about Columbus Circle, 9th Street-4th Avenue (both lines), Canal/Lafayette, 51st/Lex, 14th/6th, Franklin/Fulton? That's a lot of people who have to backtrack -- at 20-minute headways.
In some neighborhoods, walking in the middle of the night is a deadly activity, not a healthy one.
How does this make the system more attractive? It saves a few minutes for riders between express stations, but the very many riders who use local stations lose far more time, and an even greater fraction of their riding time. (Sending all locals express might save 10 minutes on a 60-minute ride -- a 17% savings -- but it would also add 30 minutes to a 20-minute ride -- a 150% penalty.)
I assume you're kidding.
Not necessarily short rides. What about two local stops between South Brooklyn and Northern Bronx? Overall the time spent, I believe, would be less, as the trains are covering more ground in less time.
But I do get your point about having to pay twice if you travel between local stations. You got me there. My assumption was that most of the rides late at night would originate/terminate in Manhattan, in neighborhoods where the paths are well traveled and subway stations are abundant, even at reduced levels.
>>> Bleecker isn't the only transfer affected. What about Columbus Circle, 9th Street-4th Avenue (both lines), Canal/Lafayette, 51st/Lex, 14th/6th, Franklin/Fulton? That's a lot of people who have to backtrack -- at 20-minute headways.
Bleecker is the only ONE-WAY transfer. All others you mentioned are on four-track lines with transfer capability in both directions. I said that all transfer stations will be accommodated regardless of local or express status. The only time there would be a problem is if the local track is down for maintenance under my plan. Then, only one local track would be down as pax will then be able to backtrack to the affected local transfer station.
>>> In some neighborhoods, walking in the middle of the night is a deadly activity, not a healthy one.
Therefore, in some neighborhoods the unit of line in which a set number of police cars will patrol will be reduced. And again, many people will be walking along the line corridor creating more pedestrian activity.
Again, if you don't want to walk, and you can afford it, take the dollar van. Or do what I do and drive your car to the nearest express or transfer stop and drive home the short distance from there. I live outside the system's reaches and drive regularly to the Lorimer Street station on the L line for a quick and easy trip to Manhattan. I don't resent the double dip I have to make in paying for gas, insurance, maintenance, AND a $3.00 round trip fare. My convenience, comfort, and time, come first. If LIRR commuters can drive to their trains, so can this demographic of subway riders.
With all the reductions in crime that have occurred in the past ten years, many formerly "deadly" neighborhoods have been dramatically reborn. I drive a friend home to Bed Stuy from work at midnight some days and am amazed at the neighborhood's perceived tranquility when I was expecting a war zone. Just for one example.
>>> (Sending all locals express might save 10 minutes on a 60-minute ride -- a 17% savings -- but it would also add 30 minutes to a 20-minute ride -- a 150% penalty.)
It will then save 20 minutes on a 120 minute ride. Ten minutes here, and ten minutes there . . . pretty soon you are talking real time. Few, if any people, will backtrack. Few will also spend more time even having to transfer to a dollar van, car, or even walking.
>>> I assume you're kidding.
I wasn't. I was just trying to speed things up and concentrate ridership to a few manageable portals rather than have a system that msut accommodate every single portal and get nowhere quickly. It's unnerving to have trains, even every 20 minutes, stop at every stop and see nobody on the platform and nobody getting off. Yes, I bob my head outside when the doors are open and check sometimes.
But you do bring up good points. Any way of keeping my plan while accounting for the shortcomings you cited? Any way of merging the two operating plans to produce a better whole?
A much better plan is to simply reduce the headway by running more frequnet shorter trains. Not only would this reduce wait time, cost less to operate but it will attract more riders who use other forms of transportation or just stay home.
Currently if a rider needs to transfer trains to get where he/she needs to go it is not worth taking the train. For instance last night I met freinds on the upper east side. I drove it because with long overnight headways, it would have taken forever to get home.
Your idea is almost as rediculous as a new tax on trades on the NYSE that democratic state senators are preposing. These guys are so clueless that they don't realize that NYSE not the only place to trae NYSE listed stocks. There idea like yours would drive down ridership(share volume) and result in a fewer city visitors at night
Not only that, but chase away those who have late night jobs in the city.
I don't see how that will help. You only have certain locations where the refuse collector can be dropped back and returned to the route it was on. 1 TW/O is sufficient, and there's no real delay with moving the refuse collector out of the way once it gets to one of those locations.
by newly- or super-employed individuals who will gladly work those hours and conditions for additional income. Riders will be safer in that they will be brought directly to their front doors from the subway exit.
I fail to see how its safer if you have a driver working the dollar van who has a daytime job. Safer as you won't get mugged, yes. Safer as in you won't end up in a crash when (s)he falls asleep, I don't know.
instead of being one-size-fits-all and not fitting a majority of the people well.
I see your plan as reducing the number of people the system services.
Just curious, you live near an express stop?
What I do on regular occasion is drive my car to either Lorimer Street or Vernon Boulevard and park there, in order to take the subway a few short stops into Manhattan to avoid the drudgery of a long-distance late-night subway (and bus) ride.
As I mentioned to Mr. Greenberger, I may not have to pay $1 or $2 to a dollar van, but I am paying for the insurance, maintenance, and other incidentals of driving a car. To me it isn't an inconvenience. In fact, quite the opposite is true. It is a convenience that far outweighs the value of the extra money spent in time and comfort. And I ain't no Rockefeller.
I feel that those who ride the subway at that time of night have little other recourse. My intuition tells me they would appreciate a quicker, if more indirect, ride, even if they were to have to pick up the "slack" somehow in getting drectly home. If this is not the case, then it is not the case. I will live with the current system anyway. Just I wanted to see how a different plan would be taken.
Thanks for your response.
All jokes aside, the plan is MISERABLE and it is totally useless. Closing the subways in the late night is not a wise idea and with the stuff you came up with its even worse. Now if shuttle buses were to replace train service if it ever comes down to that [EXCLUDING the shuttle bus in the nighttime to replace the 3 from 135-148 St], that sounds better but shouldn't be considered unless it is a last resort.
Dollar vans to replace subway service are you kidding me??? The MTA already despises them taking potential customers particularly in Brooklyn on the B41 via Flatbush and the B46 via Utica but that is crazy. Since you bring up health issues, what if the person's a non-smoker & non drinker & doesn't gamble or participate in illegal activity then what do you have to say about that?
Operation wise, you say you're a frequent rider of the late night so on 4 track lines you will cloze stations and have people go outside to wait for a dollar van while they can ride in a subway car and have more safety and less chance of a accident.
>>"- Having Transit Bureau or neighborhood precinct police patrol the corridor under/over which the subway travels. Like palace guards, have them move in perpetually opposite directions; two cars for any predetermined length of line. There will surely be heightened pedestrian activity along the surface right-of-way; itself creating an atmosphere of safety in numbers. Additionally, who knows how many businesses that would otherwise be closed during these hours could remain open if they know they would have additional foot traffic during what would have been slack hours, creating further sets of watchful eyes, and still more private-sector employment opportunites?"<<
That could happen and yes I admit a business that would most likely be closed can make some more money BUT would it be worth taking the risk and if it backfires then what do they do. And as for the Transit bureau, its going to cost more money for the patrols while the $$ can go elsewhere.
Sorry Silver Fox but the plan is too risky and not worth it IMO. The system is doing just fine for the late nights.
Mentioning "IND Rs" does not impart much information. All IND rolling stock and the successor B division rolling stock were designated with an R from the R-1 to the R-143. From the age of the film I would assume the train consisted of R-1/9 s.
Tom
wayne
3 Car Linked R46 Trainset"
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Robert
Although there were never any standees on the JFK (except during the Willy B crisis of 1989)-during rush hours, all three cars were almost standing room only.
---Choo Choo
Me personally, I never have been afraid of the "A". I was raised on the "A", and traveled on the "A" pretty much any and every hour of the day or night at one point or another until this day.
Explain.
Was this similar to the Willy B crisis of 1999 (if you could call it that)?
The TA was urging passenger to :
1. Transfer from the "M" to "L" at Myrtle-Wyckoff
2. TA issused free bus/subway transfers for buses that stopped at the "A" anc "C" stations.
3. Transfer from the "J" and "Z" to the "A", "C" and "JFK".
4. The TA made the "JFK Exp" stop at all express stops along Fulton St, weekdays from 6am - 9pm and did not charge an extra fare. During this time, the "JFK Exp" consisted of 8-car R46s.
Otherwise it is a snore, except from Myrtle to Gates.
--Mark
There were some cases where the TA didn't have some of the "assigned" cars ready for service and would stick a 4 car consist (ABBA) in service, sign as "S" Special.
There are AA sets of R-46s that have the higher numbers (there are more A cars than B cars of R-46s) and an AB set for some reason.
The TA tried weird combinations on the R44s on the "A" for a short period of time in the '80s.
As daylight arose, the E.R.A. ran a post-abandonment fantrip with museum Lo-V cars. That train made two round trips on that Third Avenue El in the Bronx, with the final run leaving Gun Hill Road at 4:04pm, and arriving back to Gun Hill Road at 5:46pm. Obviously, the fantrip's running times on that route was longer due to the many photo stops the train encountered.
However, work trains would later be seen on the Third Avenue El structure, salvaging and removing items off the line throughout the year of 1973. Demolition was not complete until 1977 after a brand new substation on Westchester Avenue near St. Ann's Avenue was opened to replace the original Manhattan Elevated Railway Company built one on Third Avenue near East 161st Street, which was still feeding power through the abandoned el structure towards the subway at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue.
The replacement transit service for this route would be the newly installed Bx55 Limited bus line (with the very new MABSTOA numbered 4800-series GMC "fishbowl" buses assigned) making stops at the same locations as the former El itself. There were two branches of the bus route in the beginning of this service going southbound to either 149th Street and 3rd Avenue or 161st Street and River Avenue, with free subway transfers provided.
The first four-car train of R-12's used on the Third Avenue El were in service August 30, 1969, and all of the remaining R-12's from the GE group of cars 5753 to 5802 would eventually enter the line within a two month period, displacing the pre-WWII Lo-V and World's Fair cars on November 3, 1969. The two R-12 cars absent eventually from that group were #5784 (from an accident in 1969) and #5781 (removed around the fall of 1970 supposedly due to a fire).
By the spring of 1971, GE R-14 cars 5803 to 5806 entered passenger service on the El as well. The R-12/14's that were assigned there had to have their dynanmic braking and accelration features modified and downgraded a bit so as not to pose any stress that could weaken the structure.
-William A. Padron
[R-10's...yes, of course!!!]
Chuck Greene
Most fitting adjective ever.
An oxymoron. :-)
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
O'Rourke's is next to the only rail line in town, a little spur served by the P&W. It comes into town and then splits into three pieces. One heads accross the river on a swing bridge to serve an industrial park (I just saw my frist train cross the bidge on Friday), one heads south to a sewage plant that recieves chlorine taks cars (the line used to head to Old Saybrook, but its out of service now) and one line that heads north to another industrial park. There is also a line north to Hartford, but it too is OOS.
Yes but what about all those lovely young girls at the university ?
Any of them going to be upset at your departure ?
Including Mike :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right about what?? Second Avenue El cars ran in regular service on the Astoria El.
Tom
www.dailynewspix.com
In the search box type in "ELEVATED TRAINS"
www.dailynewspix.com
In the search box type in "ELEVATED TRAINS"
Was the picture you saw among the ones on line? None of them appeared to be in a snow storm, and only one had a train of gate cars taken, from the looks of the cars on the street, in the late '20s.
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Plus, if David, who is aiming his camera at me, really took a picture of me, then we will see some or all of the missing people in his photo.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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wayne
wayne
Don't forget the R42 J train that startled everyone by pulling into the Metropolitan Ave station in Middle Village.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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We all assumed it was a J train having been just removed from service for the day, but I found that very strange at 11:30 in the morning. Your explanation makes a lot more sense.
Brian, what about the Metro Kittens?
Metro Kittens
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WHAT is the object at the bottom/foundation of it??
Some months back, the Times did a story about a cat that lived at the Fulton Street station on the J M Z. I always thought it would be nice if the Metro Kittens invited their city cousin to hop on the M and spend a weekend with them in "the country".
I don't know what that greenish colored disk is. It just seems that it was perfect for a water dispenser and put an upside down plastic bottle and viola ! If they didn't have that disk, then the water feeder wouldn't be possible, unless someone bought one at a pet store.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Quite often, people crack private jokes (private to those on the board) whithin their posts. Keep searching the board for a few more months, maybe you would understand the "private joke" regarding the N train, the Montague Street tunnel, and rodents.
Has it been that long since Peggy had a fantrip?
Or via the Williamsburg Bridge and Canarsie line.
wayne
---Choo Choo
(from http://arrts-arrchives.com)
---Choo Choo
wayne
That seemed to be the only R-40M set on the line today, and we kept running into it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yeah the "mean" lady (I love that) was just in a "power play" mode. We all sort of ignored her, and said absolutely nothing back. She said it a few times (even though no one was taking photos after she said it the first time). It's as if she was hoping for a fight.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
Judging from the picture of the group, you are lucky they didn't call out the NYPD ESU SWAT team when they saw so many suspicious looking people with cameras. :-)
Tom
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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GUFF?
---Choo Choo
Josh (on the first step on the right hand side of the stairs)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Anyway, nice photo!
John
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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You were on the tour? Which person are you?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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I on the other hand have to weigh myself in slugs in order to avoid having a 3 digit mass.
We started out with 25 at Herald Square and ended up with 4 at Delancey/Essex. Three people left @ Myrtle/Wyckoff, a few left @ Atlantic/Sneidker, half of those remaining left @ 121st/Jamaica, some more ducked out @ Bway Jct, one @ Halsey, two @ Myrtle/Bway, and then the other two disappeared over the Williamsburg Bridge when four of us started taking photos of two passing J's. For the first time ever I unconciously nearly ran out of photos (99/106). I learned a lot of interesting stuff about the abandoned Bowery mezzaine, the art at Canal Street, the Chestnut Street Incline, the Cypress Hills Terminal, and I saw an abandoned LIRR line that I'd never noticed before (despite passing through there several dozen times looking for exactly such things).
Somebody made a joke about a "Redbird Alert" when we were at Crescent Street, joking of course, but what he probably didn't know is that there was an Redbird car (R-27) about three blocks away inside my school.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Oh, wait, that wasn't today.
That's a shot of the Redbird trip from a year and a half ago, that ran over the Eastern Division (Canarsie & the J and M lines, IIRC). It was during the winter of 2002 or early 2003 (the memory ain't what it used to be). Also, please note the date on the post you are responding to: April, 2003!
The B-Division rollsign was a 'gift' from a certain C/R who was in service during that fantrip.
That's what I thought at first, but then I saw 15 JAMAICA BROAD STREET and that kinda threw me off...
The B-Division rollsign was a 'gift' from a certain C/R who was in service during that fantrip.
Is R-33WF #9331 still around by any chance? :)
All the R-33WFs are around, except 9321. The end signs were a loan, not a gift; they're not in the car any more.
---Choo Choo
"Somebody made a joke about a "Redbird Alert" when we were at Crescent Street, joking of course, but what he probably didn't know is that there was an Redbird car (R-27) about three blocks away inside my school."
Note the use of the phrase "Redbird car" and "inside my school." I'd say that's all the proof you need.
---Choo Choo
I think I beat everyone here: twelve consecutive hours of railfanning!
Thanks, Peggy -- and Wayne, too!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You don't understand. He was getting even for all those short rides in Manhattan where he is charged so much more per mile than those living in the outer boroughs. :-)
Tom
I just might as well seek professional help too.
I guess you got your ride on the W and other lines, huh? I did make it to my relatives in Greenpoint, but waited 20 minutes for the G to arrive. -Nick
I'm surprised you had to wait so long for the G. Then again, I didn't see a G at Smith-9th or in the relay at 4th, so that should have been a dead giveaway -- the G you finally got was somewhere behind our F train.
Well, it wasn't doing that yesterday...I waited over 20 minutes. -Nick
If it was, I didn't see the G train on the opposite side once I ahd crossed over. However, two F Queensbound F trains came through before I finally got the G. -Nick
Either that G train came from somewhere past 4th Avenue or one of us is blind.
(Actually, in 1988, the TA's ad proclaiming the new free transfer at Times Square between the IND and the rest of the complex has a graphic of an R-44 A sitting across the platform from an R-44 1. Hmmm!)
Incidentally, I think your web site needs updating.
I'm absolutely positive that I didn't see a G train go through the opposite side. Unless a G train came through right after the F departed, and then took off before I had finished crossing the platform. But obviuously I highly doubt that. -Nick
How about 25 hours of Railfanning over 2 days (R/T on Metro-North, bus to Shore Line Trolley museum, the subway rides to/from GCT in the morning and Fordham Road in the evening, and Sunday's tour).
Might be only half-good, weather wise, but it was a GREAT weekend for my favorite sport indeed.
wayne (Wayne-MrSlant40)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
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---Choo Choo
I'm originally from Connecticut. When you met me in Boston in October of 2001, I was in my senior year of college. Now I'm back home, 47 miles east of NYC. -Nick
Peace
ANDEE
As other subtalkers have mentioned, I am in the front row to the right of Dave with the fleece around my waist and sporting my Yankees cap. :-)
Special thanks to Peggy and Wayne for providing such an enormous amount of information, and to all the other subtalkers...everyone of you made this day enjoyable! -Nick
Nice shot Brian, amazing no police officer stopped us for "obstructing" a subway entrance. Imagine how well secure that station is now?
Glad you had a blast. I think that I passed you guys a few times on the J Sunday.
---Choo Choo
--Mark
Chauncey St
--Mark
Other places would be the 7 in LIC because of the unparalled views of Midtown and used to be also the Brighton Line to CI.
Any other nominations?
A second nominee would be the old NY,W, & B right of way of the 5 to Dyre Avenue. It might be a commuter railroad or interurban except for the fact that it's the Bronx!
Let's face it, underground transit is generally not very beautiful for the rider, and Els are not very beautiful for the neighborhood. So I guess I'd have to go the with open cut and embankment sections of the Brighton as the most beautiful.
If I had to pick an underground station, it would be one of those deep stations on the IRT up in Washington Heights. The big arches give you an opportunity to really see something and the walkover really lets you see the trains.
The City Hall loop station would probably qualify as the most beautiful station if it were still active, but as it's not available to the general public, I disqualify it.
I think the most beautiful station I've seen is the Museum of Natural History. Others that have been beautifully redone, are Lincoln Center, Astor Place, and Franklin St.
One of the most spectacular indoor stations would be 168 St on the 1/9, if it were renovated. But right now it is in rather dilapidated condition, and one only gets a hint of its former grandeur.
--Mark
B/C at 81st
F/G at Smith-9th
L at Bushwick-Aberdeen (the mosaics)
M/W at 9th Avenue, at the south end
N on the entire Sea Beach line, despite the peeling paint
1/9 at 181st, 125th (look west!), 66th, 18th, Franklin, South Ferry
5 on the Dyre branch
Considering what that USED to look like... A-weee yes, I agree.
Original restored City Hall/IRT station with the chandelier at the entrance, such a beautiful work of art (I rode the last car there, ignoring the C/R's instructions to discharge at BB/CH station)
Honorable mention: The classic 10 minute ride over Jamaica Bay from Howard Beach station to the first stop in the Rockaways.
Runner up to me is the glass mural at Brighton beach on the old D train where I'd key out and fall back for another round of fun if I wasn't WAA'ing with put-ins and layups. Other spots on the Brighton and other places have some truly WONDEROUS artworks, even if they ain't foamer glass.
I guess there's something fundamentally WRONG with me. Trains and the stations they visit don't do HALFWAY as much for me as the PEOPLE all around and the environment within which we MEET. Y'all have some PRETTY stations and people, trains and platforms were always WORK to me, not a "place" ... like I said, something's wrong with me. Musta been paying them TWU dues and dealing with morons that kinda cured my OWN foaminess.
Our own HEYPAUL long ago posted some links to some of the WONDERFUL art that is all about ya ... I tried to find the links to it and failed. Hopefully Unca Heypaul will read this and point to the glass mermaids and all the other DELIGHTS that can be found on a platform near you ... even if ya gotta take a damned B train to get there. :(
Bway Junction on the (L), you get a nice wide-open view of Brooklyn when you stand at the end of the platform.
Marcy Av. on the (J)/(M), nice view of the Williamsburg Bridge.
Honorable mention: The A over the Rockaways between Howard Beach & Broad Channel, wonderful sight of the Jamaica Bay.
I mentioned the same two items, only I added "From Howard Beach to the first stop in the Rockaways" because of the Broad Channel Bridge and the danger of falling off the tracks as we approach the Y switch in the first leg of the Rockaways, near Hammels Wye.
That mindset still carries within the MTA, even today. Look at Woodside Blvd. station on the Queens Blvd. IND. Already, there are tears in the floor tiling and major leakage. Bad.
And then the train comes from the wrong direction...
Coming out of the tunnel on the 4 train by Yankee Stadium (said by a Mets fan, too).
Any view of the water on the Rockaway line.
Looks as if Shea is going to remain The Toilet Bowl for a while longer until they get their collective act again. Not to mention until Mo Vaughn learns how to hold onto a lob toss from the pitcher. For Pete's sake, Mo, the ball won't bite you.
How about coming out of the tunnel on the #4 South of 59th St? ;-)
This show occupied nine buildings, had over 3000 vendor's tables and was attended by close to 16,000 people. Over the years it has earned the reputation as being the place to go to look for that scarce item for your train layout or model railroad.
My wife and I have been registration volunteers at this show for many years. Extra duties at this show prevented me for looking at the trains as much as I would have liked. However, this turned out to be one of the best York Meets I have ever attended!
The best part of this York show was to finally get to meet and spend some time with another SubTalker, Train Dude! Steve came as a guest of his co-worker Mike, a TCA member; between them, they have over 40 years of MTA experience. They were able to answer every question I could throw at them! It was great learning more about my favorite subject, New York's subways and els, from two of the most knowledgeable men I have ever met!
Steve, it was a pleasure to meet you. I sure hope that you and Mike enjoyed our conversations as much as I did and that both of you will be returning to York in the fall. I'll try to limit my future transit questions!!
Hopefully someday I can make it out there. I'll bet I could cross quite a few items off my wish list by doing so.:)
You and I have talked about York several times over the years, and I know that you would not be disappointed if you would give it a try. I worked registration at the National Converntion which was held at York in 1994, and was amazed by the number of members who attended the convention, that had never attended the York Meet. You don't know what you are missing!
BTW the 2007 TCA National Convention will be in Denver. You can bet I'll be there!
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The thought of switching hell at 34 St - 42 St just happened to be on my mind. I just want to hear your thoughts on this.
You might despise my "W" line.. but I love it... LEAVE US ALONE!
N Bwy (Father)
W Bwy (Son)
Astoria
It's more of a problem now because of the large number of trains.
Roght now you have 18 Qs running express, 16 Ns and Rs running local, and 9 Ws switching from express to local.
In 2004, you'll have 10 Qs running express, probably 14 Rs and Ws running local, and probably 10 Ns switching from express to local. So you're much less likely to delay an express behind you as you wait for a chance to switch onto the local track.
-Jeff
Why not have the N run up to the Bronx, Fred will sure love to visit Yankee Stadium. After all, they way the MUTTS are playing, in and outside of Shea, they will be the equalivent of getting their worthy prize: #1 pick in the first round of the 2004 MLB baseball draft.
Fred should ask Yogi what time it is. Yogi would answer, "You mean right now?"
I like the story of Yogi saying, "What the hell's wrong with him now?" when his wife said she'd gone to see Dr. Zhivago with their son, Tim.
I like Yogi's Berra-isms. He himself admits they just come out that way.
"Pair up by threes."
"A nickel ain't worth a dime nowadays."
Then there was the time the Yankees visited Gracie Mansion and Yogi was met either by the Mayor's wife or Gov. Rockefeller's wife. He was wearing a pea green suit. The exchange went like this:
"That's a cool-looking suit you're wearing."
"Thakns. You don't look so hot yourself."
But just think how much money the nursing homes saved on tranquilizers :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The W & R running at a maximum 7 THP headway? Hope not. The R better run at the same headways as the BDNQ will.
A simple problem deserves a simple soloution: Exterminate the N completely, and rename it #4-Sea Beach Shuttle, a two car train using old diplidated money cars with all seats removed and have the shuttle run from 59th st to New Utrecht Ave only. Transfer there from the shuttle to the extended B23 bus to current terminus at 86th st/West 7th st.
And those who live in Brooklyn know how frequent and reliable the B23 bus runs.
Summer is coming and a very busy June is in store, four MOD fantrips, at least TWO I will be attending and the re-opening of PATH's exchange Place station in NJ sandwiched in between the last two MOD fan trips on June 28-29. And let's not forget to see who can stand the Cyclone roller coaster the longest you or me. I am game for your favorite playground brother. Loser must use heypaul's compactor outside the coaster.
I have jury duty starting May 21 and hope to hell they don't put me on some long and drawn out case. I have plans to travel and don't want them putting a crimp in my style if you know what I mean.
I will get my Q line shirt, at least they won't touch the Brighton Local in 2004.
Arti
Wasting my daily limit:-)
Arti
(All taken July 21, 2002.)
Arti
Arti
Even the name of the company bar says it all, "The Rule G Suspension" ... our motto, "If you can still grab ahold of the handle, then you haven't had ENOUGH yet." Beer on tap, kegs powered by a D2F subway car compressor to keep it fresh. Air bag suspension "comfort ride" available on request. Gravitational suspension also available, cab blessings optional. Void where prohibited by unconsciousness.
But ONE thing we're grateful for - we have winter up here which kills ALL the insects. No termite issues, but of course we have the official bird of New York, the mosquito beginning to reappear. Sure you don't wanna take in some refugees? :)
As an experienced DAIRY farmer, "spreading it around" at least ensures that the CORN grows. Since there ain't no OIL here (except in da tractor) ... well, I sympathize politically for the party that's looking out for *ME* ... and that's NOBODY! NOBODY for President! :)
Now back to the "Depends party" which is already in progress ... is YOUR set of drawers filled yet? :)
In pre-Chrystie times ALL expresses not terminating at 57th switched in this manner to the local track.
I just happened to notice in the Premier section, MTH is offering two separate flat cars, one with a red R-17 as the load, and the other with the R-17 work train rider car as the load.
If these R-17 loads are complete functional cars, this might be the way for all of us who missed the rider car in the work train set to get it. The car number illustrated is 36740 which is the same number as the car in the work set.
I am sort of curious as to why these two cars are listed in the Premier series rather than the RailKing series.
The information in both editions, which happen to be 24 pages, is very much the same. There are some changes in the car roster, and also some different roster photos.
It would be an interesting project to track down all of the different editions of this BERA publication.
I'll contact you offline with some additional questions about the editions you have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Loitsch
Be glad to help any way I can, just let me know!
Yes, the 8th is the last... I've got that one and one or two earlier ones (5th and 6th I think, don't recall without looking).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you sure that "gang" wan't the SubTalk gang? Don't worry, I got friends in all parts of Brooklyn. No one's gonna mess with us.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm glad you enjoyed the day; it was certainly a fun time for everyone I think! -Nick
www.forgotten-ny.com
wouldn't happen till 1999. But there were 2 events in '73 I'd consider calamitous: end of service on the 3rd ave El and the grade-cross elim at East 105th on the canarsie.
Add to that the 1969 Myrtle El elim and the 1975 Culver Shuttle shutdown and it adds up to a down period for the MTA, even before the graffiti kings took over and service dropped like a cue ball off a dinner table from '75-'85.
Perhaps it;s just as well I was blissfully oblivious then.
The E still ran all the way to Rockaway
R-1/9s were still running all over the place
The only cars without RFWs were R-44s
You could still get hot dogs and Orange Bang without leaving the system
You could still ride the QJ all the way to 168 in Jamaica
A ride on the subway was fifty cents!
The fare was 35 cents from January 1972 until September 1, 1975. And the long-forgotten Sunday half-fare went into effect in Dec. 1973, due to the gasoline shortages that existed at the time.
How did that work?
Tom
The ticket would be handed to the agent.
Yeah, I remember that. The token booth clerk or someone standing near the turnstiles gave you a paper transfer. Good for one ride. From my limited experience with it the methodology seemed to work well. Maybe a little kludgy but that's what we had then, paper transfers. With the buses, the complete listing of all applicable transfers printed on the front. I miss those transfers....
On buses you were given a similar paper transfer that was good for any second bus trip until 1 AM Monday. Bus and subway tickets were not interchangeable.
On Sept. 1, 1975 the half fare was extended to start 6 PM Saturday night. On subways it worked the same way. On buses you simply paid 25 cents in the fare box as the fare as of Sept 1/'75 went to 50 cents.
From what you describe this was not truly a half fare system, but more of a buy one now, and get a free ride later in the day scheme. Anyone taking an odd number of rides did not get 50% off. It was a true half fare only for round trips.
Tom
MetroCard could make such an idea somewhat easy to implement if anyone were interested today.
Considering that I waited fifteen minutes for an E at 71-Continental and another half hour for a late N4 bus at Jamaica this past Sunday, I'd be willing to suggest that perhaps mass transit is only worth half fare on Sundays. (Oh, yes-- the westbound LIRR train I took was running almost ten minutes late besides.)
Baseball without players is like a guitar without strings.
Baseball without owners is like a classical orchestra without a cow bell.
I rode on the subway twice that whole year. One round trip to Shea on July 7 and then during a daylong excursion on December 27. Little did I know then that I would not board another subway train until July 28, 1976.
On the other hand, they were still digging the Second Ave. subway at that time...
--Mark
I guess we should all bow our heads in respect that in the film, they actually used NYC subway cars instead of Toronto I s'pose. For Hollyweird, that's about as good as it gets. At least they didn't put the controller stand on the Heypaul side of the cab like they did for Money train. And hey, how about that car building up steam with the spring on the handle *UP*? :)
However, on the plus side, Hollyweird DID build a reasonable facsimile of the NYC subway out in the desert, complete with R-27s for "Money Train" and "Die Hard With A Vengeance", plus "MIB II" so they ARE trying...too bad no more all-on-location films like "Pelham", though...
I suspect that people who actually work(ed) the subways cannot STAND watching movies about the subways. Trippers with big black and yellow stripes, DISK BRAKES on R27's that can be "bled" (?) ... and let's not forget that underground stop at Prospect Park after the wreck.
I didn't think all that highly of "Pelham" either. Only shows to go ya though, there's NOTHING to worry about with respect to terrorists hijacking a train. All the secrets REMAIN safe as far as getting ten feet in a purloined train without eating chow. :)
Sometimes you don't have to be a terrorist to wreak mayhem in the system. Sometimes you don't even need Hollyweird...
I'm still trying to figure out which unlucky car got that window kicked out. It was an R-1 or R-4 because there was one large pane of glass. The camera didn't aim high enough to catch the car number. I did identify three car numbers once I got my DVD copy: 800, 1208 and 1802.
P. S. If you advance frame by frame as Stallone tries to pry the doors open, you can see an undisguised Hoyt-Schermerhorn sign in the background. It happens too quickly to see in normal viewing.
Most lines should operate OPTO starting around 9PM in the evening. The brighton line is a prime candidate and a line that I rode nightly at arounf 9:30 pm nightly for nearly 6 months.
First 4 -car OPTO leaves brighton beach at 9 PM. Run one additional train per hour unless ridership needs demand more
Properly lable the platform with a different color safety stripe to inducate the area where the shortened trains stoped. Use in car advertising and stations handouts to notify the public
This is such an easy way to educte the public and reduce confusion it is almost stupid
Full length Trains at long headways makes not economica or operational sense. It limits where a rider can go because transfering to other lines with equally long headways would take forever.
The shorter headways will encourage more night and weekend usage thus increase revenue(or reduce costs in the form of more riders buying weekly and monthly metrocard which increase MVM manitance and availabilty schedules)
Here are a few ideas to reduce confusion and dwell time
1)use a diferent color safety stripe
2)Have different color lighting to indicate the area where the OPTO train would stop. Only turn the lights on during OPTO service
Better public education is needed to remind them where to wait. Station announcements would not hurt either reminding riders of the two above suggestions
As for the transfer issue, that is hard to do anything about. Over time if things remain consistant those who are looking to transfer from the E to the G will know what car to be on to transfer
The problem is that the current service pattern is not consistant
People ussually get on the car that will leave then near the stairway at the station where they will be exiting. People will adapt.
Just like anything else in this world. Those who do not adapt get left behind
There's a nice sign at 46th Street (Manhattan-bound, part-time control area) saying "G stops at center of platform." However, that sign is next to the regular turnstiles, and thus is visible to entering passengers only when the G does NOT stop there!!
An exampe would be a obvious strip where the train stops off hours combined with PA announcements and station sinage to educate people that blue stipe meens that short trains stop here.
The are also little yellow signs that are on all platforms that I first noticed in the early 90's that say off hours trains stop here with a little picture of a conductor.
Incidentally, what happens (with OPTO or otherwise) if the stop markers are missing entirely? End of platform?
2. Stop at the end of the platform, give C/R one long buzz to NOT open the doors, call Control Center to advise them of missing markers. Once permission is given to open doors, advise C/R on intercom, or PA if necessary, that the train is "fully berthed" (all doors are within the station). After that, the doors may be opened.
The more the trains comes, the less people waiting for the train.
Combine that with better signage on the platform thus reducing riders waiting in the wrong place. I ammit that during the late 90's I was guilty of waiting in the wrong location thus having to run and look foolish
The R could use shorter more frequent trains also reducing te confusion of one train stoppin location. The R runs with very long headway on the weekend. Broadway platforms sometimes crowded due to the long headways plus many riders along 4th ave stay away from the subway on weekend
I am interested in providing the service that will give the most bang for the buck for riders
4 car trains at 4 min headways is more useful to riders then 8 car trains at 8 min headways
Of course to even the cost equation out because of OPTO pay bonus, a soultion would to run 4 car trains at 6 min headways
Arti
I once saw a R46 F display destinations for Queensbound N service. I got on at 169 St, signs made it a Queensbound N, but by Parsons, the signs were for normal Brooklyn-bound F service. Can't remember if this took place before or after the Stillwell Construction...
Also it wouldn't pay to retrofit the fleet since replacement was on the horizon.'
Bill "Newkirk"
Jim K.
Chicago
The TTC guard in the train always blew his whistle to signal that the doors would be closing. The "short" whistle was blown once when the guard looked down the rear end of the train, the a second "long" whistle was for the front portion. The actual order may have been reversed.
The last whistles were "retired" when the TTC retired the last of the cars not equipped with door chimes. The ding, ding, ding, on the TTC subway is a hallmark in Toronto which is even broadcasted on the TTC website.
SEPTA started the whistle think in the 1970's IIRC. The motorman in the cab of the Budd cars was alerted that the doors were closed by a green light that came on in the cab. There was a buzzer system used, but it was usually used when the train was approaching Bridge-Pratt. The motorman would "buzz" to let the conductor know which track, and thus what side of the train, the doors would need to be opened. Remember, the conductor on the MFSE had to cross between the cars for island platforms and sometimes the Bridge Pratt Terminal.
The think I remember most fondly about the EL, was when one was climbing the stairs at Bridge Pratt, especially the north stairway, you could hear the motorman give the "about to leave" signal when they would insert the key and move the controller to "release". When you heard that exhaust of air you knew that you had precious seconds to get aboard.
Jim K.
Chicago
I know they had no public address system and no air conditioning as well. I think they were the last of the rapid transit cars built without A/C.
I thought the whistle blowing started in the 1970's, and I had heard a story, true or not, it was instituted after an elderly person was "dragged" along a platform.
As I posted previously, the whistle blowing idea was clearly brought from north of the border. The TTC used it before SEPTA.
Why on earth did this April message get resurrected?
Jim K.
Chicago
David
I rest my case.
David
To settle the argument voiceofreason and I had a few weeks ago, I compared the running time of the southbound local to the running time of the northbound express. (If I get a chance, I'll time the northbound local some day, but this will have to suffice for now.) I had earlier expressed my doubt that the express would save as much as four minutes over the local. I made a few photo stops along the way, but the timings reflect the total time elapsed between express stops:
9th to 62nd (local): 6:02
62nd to BP (local): 7:13
Total (local): 13:15
BP to 62nd (express): 4:45
62nd to 9th (express): 4:31
Total (express): 9:16
Difference, 9th - 62nd: 1:31
Difference, 62nd - BP: 2:28
Difference, total: 3:59
So it looks like I was right, if only by a second. (I'm totally serious -- none of these numbers are fudged, although I suppose each of my readings is subject to a margin of error of a second or two. At 9th Avenue, we were held for exactly four minutes.)
So, voiceofreason, I hold by my original assessment that a four-minute savings is unlikely to draw more than a handful of passengers off the express buses, and that running a West End express as a regular service would hurt more than it would help. You are, of course, welcome to agree, but I will not argue the point any longer. I will say that the train moved at a good clip over the straightaways and that, as a railfan, I enjoyed it a good deal.
Also of interest: there were at least six R-40 sets and one R-40M set (with mismatched R-42) on the W today. Why so many, when there usually are only three? I can only guess. For one thing, the Q needs two additional trainsets now that it runs through the tunnel on weekends, and it probably stole them from the W. For another, I read in an article somewhere that weekend W service would be increased this summer -- i.e., probably for the entire pick, which began today. The train I rode was S4423-4422-4435-4434-4324-4325-4205-4205-4444-4445N; the one two intervals behind it was S4399-4398-4382-4383-4305-4304-4162-4163-4360-4361N. The R-40M set had south motor 4472 and north motor 4458.
On the Stillwell front: the beginnings of a new Sea Beach platform, at the north end only, have sprouted.
Both 4th Avenue express tracks were closed south of 36th. I don't know if the N made local stops. (The SB track is usually closed for R layups, and the N bypasses 45th and 53rd on the local track, but the NB track is usually open.)
As of 9pm, the 1 was already running local from 72nd to 96th. It was supposed to run express until 5am tomorrow. Was the 1 running on severely increased headways? At about 8:30am (when the GO was still in effect), I had to wait about 15 minutes for a downtown train -- one 2 and two 3's, all mostly empty, passed by while I was waiting. When the 1 finally showed up, it was nearly crush loaded.
Beats me. All I know is that on my nb (2) train from Park Place going home, I got held up a bunch of times from Times Sq to 96 St because of a (1) that crossed in front of us.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The issue is not just the time savings but the comfort of not stopping, having cold and hot air rush in nad less possibility of a mechanical breakdown with the doors
All in all it is a less stressful ride not having to look up to see if any nuts are boarding the train at the next local stop.
The phsycalogical draw of an express train is important in drawing ridership and developent downline.
I often get off the local at kings highway and wait for an express for the above reasons. Many other passengers do also
Cutting nearly 4 min off ones commute saves 32 hours a year in commuting time ride is important to many subway riders. The express bus is no faster the the subway but it simply a more comfortable predictable ride.
Developers along metro north and NJ transit agrree with me putting up new apartment complexes near to train stations to take advantage of quick train service into manhattan
The super express would save a few addtional minutes. If the city could sell this to developers of new market rate developements downline it could work. But regualr scheduled west end express would be better.
My thoughts also. This just seems like the way to plan for the future. As long as the operational aspects of the ride are getting "computerized" I hope the Transit Authority would be open to new types of service. And try the idea on other lines too. I don't think it's right to assume current ridership patterns are written in stone. The Extra Fare Super Express idea should be considered.
In large part current ridership patterns are dictated by the type of service provied
A premium price service would not draw tremdouse crowds unless it truely provided quicker rider and other ammenities such as cushoned seats such as express buses. Add the cost of the new seats and the MTA would be better off charing regualr fare. Because the MTA would most likely collect the extra fare at the downline express stations such as bay parkway city bound and as an exit surchare on the reutrn trip thus allowing the masses to destroy the cushoned seats inside the manahattan zone
As for CBTC/ATO it will allow the MTA to deviate from it's current model of serving all stations equally which in many cases makes sense, but in other not much sense. This is especially true in areas far from the city.
In the case of the west end there is much underutilized developement potential between bay parkway and CI. The crime in the area is not terrible. The crime that is there such as some prostitution is largely there becuase the desolute nature of parts of the area. Especially in CI with real estate close to the beach there is great potential for some significant development. Areas along the same beach from brighon beach over to just Past Ocean Parkway is filled with middle class and upper middle class building that the majority of the riders commute to manahattan.
New Market rate developement would instantly improve the area around stillwell terminal and spur increased riders. The express service will also as I mentioned in previous post draw many current X28 bus riders allowing the MTA to reduce x28 service which currently runs 28 buses an hour.
If David is so sure that West End Express will draw fly's why not start it out as a 4 car OPTO service. Many stations already have CCTV camera's to assist train operators. Increase the platform coverage of hte cameras. There is certaintly capasity to run this service. My guess it will be packed
Photo taken today, by me
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Photo taken today, by me
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
:-) Andrew
But sometimes I do partake in the "railfan window", particularly on the inbound (7), where the oncoming view of the skyline is thrilling (and where I was unlikely to get a seat anyhow.)
:-) Andrew
At least the sorrow of 11/3/63 was eased on July 2, 1970, when streetcars returned to life as BSM began public operation.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
The Brightliners are expected to be around yet for quite some time, well into the 2010s. True, though, most lines will no longer have equipment with a railfan window.
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks - I'd often wondered as to exactly when Paris-Bastille had closed. The best I'd got was a map dated 1st April 1973 which showed it as closed on its 11th and 12th arr pages, but as open on its 4th arr page! Rather bizarrely it still showed Reuilly (12th Arr, West side of the Rue de Reuilly, opposite the Rue de la Gare de Reuilly), Bel Air (12th Arr, between the Rues du Sahel and de Montempoivre, opposite the Rue Paul Crampel) and St-Mandé (opposite the Mairie de St-Mandé) as open, despite the obvious fact that the only place trains could still go on that line was to the Gare aux Marchandises (Goods Station) between the former Reuilly station and the Mairie de la 12ème Arrondissement.
The next week, MS61 EMUs took over with a new Paris terminal.
IINM, the marginally worse located Nation. I don't know when it got extended through Central Paris, but the section to Opéra was allegedly under construction on my 1973 map.
By the way, I've always found the other and of RER A the most interesting. Do you know when the line from St-Germain-en-Laye was diverted into Etoile? I presume the service ran into St-Lazare beforehand - am I correct? And as you head into SG-en-Laye a trackbed diverges (IIRC to the left) - where did this go to?
According to the book I have:
Paris-Bastille and Bel-Air, Dec. 13 1969, last run of the steam trains
St-Mandé, Jul. 1 1968, closed to allow work for the new line
Paris-Reuilly, Sep. 30 1978, ticket office and freight only since 1969
> the marginally worse located Nation.
with transfers to 4 metro lines, it was not that bad.
Besides, I lived near Nation.:-)
Central section Auber-Nation opened to public Dec. 10 1977.
Transfer of SGeL line to RER, Oct. 1 1972.
Before that, Standard series third rail powered stock ran to St. Lazare.
The diverged line lead to "St. Germain-en-Laye Grande Ceinture". Not sure if the connection still exists, though.
My father took me(6-year-old) to ride the new Nation-Boissy line when it opened. Since it was a weekend, there were very few people. Can't imagine that today. Line A is always crowded now. I remember the steam trains but never actually rode on one.
According to the book I have:
What is the book, by the way? It sounds a good one!
Since it was a weekend, there were very few people. Can't imagine that today.
Depends which bits you ride ;-)
Last time I used RER A, it wasn't particularly busy, but I only used an outlying section of it:
Outbound I did:
10 - Odéon to Javel (packed)
C - Javel to Champ de Mars (great once I remembered RER ran left handed!)
C - Champ de Mars to Pte Maillot (nice ride on the top deck of a double decker across the Seine!)
1 - Pte Maillot to La Défense (SERIOUSLY packed)
A - La Défense to SG-en-Laye (slow and half-full at first, getting slower and emptier)
Return I did:
A - SG-en-Laye to Nanterre Université (unbearably slow and really quite empty)
SNCF - Nanterre Univ to St-Lazare (just as empty, just as slow, and I never knew trains still stopped at Pont Cardinet!)
3 - St-Lazare to Réaumur Sebastopol (ah, a nice normal standing ride!)
Then I walked across Central Paris (because I really don't like line 4, especially the station at St-Michel), nearly getting dragged into several rather dubious looking shops in the Rue St-Denis!
> especially the station at St-Michel
I remember one new year's eve in the early nineties. I went there to buy tickets to CDG Airport, so I could use the no-ticket-window entrance the next day. I got a nice welcome of a hallway full of tear gas. Stink bombs, firecrackers, tear gas... Sometimes I hate the way French youth likes to celebrate! Not that I want to be in a pub near a football ground in London right after a game either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe that's what the TA is counting on. There will be teleporters and so no need for a subway or to purchase rolling stock.
Any reason why you just made a general statement that really has little discussion value?
Today, I rode the "A" train. TWICE!!!
Actually, that was quite refreshing!
As I was told, August 4th (also my birthday) of 1969, a Myrtle-Chambers train left Metropolitan Ave making the usual stops. At Chambers St., passengers were discharged, the consist ran light to Coney Island yard for layup and that closed the book on daily revenue service for the BMT Standards. They would make a return in 1976 (only three cars) with the debut of the Nostalgia Special and run on weekend excursions to Rockaway Park or Coney Island. They also were used for fantrips.
Bill "Newkirk"
They naturally could not do this if one of the 3 car sets was a BX. A 3 car BX was not permitted to run on the Jamaica line. They had to remain in a 6 car set with a B set.
They also added extra cars to 6 car trains of Standards for rush hour, creating 7 or 8 car trains. They would also cut extra cars off at the end of rush hour.
168th St was an interesting station to watch the action during the time of the Standards. I think the practice ended when the R-16's came on the scene in 1955.
There are other solutions to the problem, but this is NYCT's.
Certainly, if the B/D are going to swap in the Bronx, they should swap full-time. Some people have suggested a half-measure, swapping them only during weekends and late nights, which seems to me clearly inferior to the MTA proposal.
I suspect the MTA's view is that the D has been the full-time Concourse Line train since 1940, and so the Bronx service pattern on that line is pretty well established by now. In contrast, the various line assignments on the BMT Southern Division have changed so often that there really is no long-standing historical pattern to preserve.
That all said though, what happens in Brooklyn really should benefit the folks *IN* Brooklyn, but do NOT screw with the D train or rename it in the Bronx. You've ALL been WARNED. Just DON'T go there. :)
Yo, bro! Glad to see you around and about! Was about to call it a "night" ... and after some audio in my face on a sidenote, realized why you weren't all that enthused when I suggested "Gogos" for the night while you were here, their OLD STUFF is LAME ... but the DVD of their gig in Central Park in 2001 ... SO much better ... next time, I'll sit ya down and let you take it in - you'll be impressed.
Which way to your house? The sign says we're at 71st Street
71st Street?
Hmm... Never heard of it. Downtown could be in any direction.
No sweat. We'll just take a spin on the B-Train
Bzzzzzzzzp! OOh, that feels funny
This is the Brooklyn-bound B-Train making local stops at wherever the hell I feel like.
Watch for the closing doors|bing bong
Wake up, buddy. End of the line
Gosh, my old neighborhood
My proposal does away with the role swapping. The B is always the local. The D, when it runs, is always the express (in one direction). Just like the Brighton line (according to both NYCT's proposal and mine), where the full-time Q is the full-time local. It's the Concourse express that's the part-time service, not the Concourse local; the Concourse express should carry the part-time letter. (What that letter is makes no difference to me, but it might as well be as consistent with today's service pattern as possible, which means the B is the local and the D is the express.)
If a train shows up on the center track instead of the LOCAL TRACK, WOO-PHUCKING-HOO!!! I get *ON* that beech ... folks that live *OFF* the United States MAINLAND never did GET the "Bronx culture" ... HOLY SHEEPSHEET! I'm *ALIVE*! *WOOHOO!* ... we don't fret about DOOWAHDIDDY. We're STILL BREATHING! :)
SCREW with the D train, you DIE. Screw with the IRT, *YOU* try to tell it to the TMO. Go ahead, I triple dog DARE you! Heh. If they approve it, nobody GIVES a qwap. It ain't the FOUR train, it's the WOODLAWN. It ain't the FIVE train, it's the 241 train. Same for the VAN COURTLANDT ... call it a 6, we don't care - NOBODY of any value lives in PELHAM. Booooowahahahahaha ...
Screw with the D TRAIN? Then you DESERVE to die. :)
But no, we don't care (us BRONX boys) where the D train stops *****BELOW***** Columbus Circle. Phuck with it anywhere NORTH of 145th and then you DIE. :)
Believe it or NERTZ, Riverdale was once a RAILROAD community of shacks, private houses and low-income apartments out where buses and trollies didn't go ... got better. :)
Bronxies though are USED TO THINGS being stable ... or at least a cheap diorama of same ... do whatever you want with a train not called "CC" or "D" ... but GHOD HELP YOU if you screw with those ... Unca Selkirk is might proud that his big brass clangers hang in a museum, but rest assured, NOBODY got stones like THESE. Heh. And even *I* couldn't get away with a number like screwing with the D train. :)
I would certainly agree that this is more consistent than the MTA proposal, and it allows the B/D to maintain their association with the West End and Brighton Lines respectively. The main drawback for Bronx IND customers is that, except at rush hours, the only train serving the Concourse Line (the B) would be a CPW local, instead of the CPW express they have today. Offsetting that, CPW residents would have 2 weekend locals and late-night locals, instead of 1.
It's a close call whether this is better than the MTA proposal. It's certainly the only alternative I've seen that merits serious consideration.
The big flaw in this arrangement is the added midday express service, which ridership probably doesn't warrant.
The loss of weekend CPW express service is not the big deal some make of it. It comes at a cost of three minutes (seated on an air conditioned train) at worst. As I pointed out elsewhere, last weekend I rode the most crowded non-rush D train I have ever seen, and it was running local on CPW. Coincidence? I doubt it. When it's running express, I usually see a few passengers in each car on Sundays. What a waste of a train!
If anybody ever came to their senses about these names, French Fries would be called British Chips, French Kissing would be called Snogging and French Toast would be called Fried Toast.
Moo!!!!
Ever play stick ball? Operative Bronx words ... STICK and BALL. Word. :)
Sticky balls ... another "trait" ... Holy cowpatties, batman ... someone's screwing with the D train! Next thing you know, I'll become Ronnie Raygun's FAVORITE vegetable (for the clueless, "catsup") ... oh wait, he's his OWN favorite vegetable. Ask the astrologer. :)
To FEIGN "on topic" ... motor speed governors once had balls. They zizzed in outer space, went in and out and twirled. Just like NANCY! :)
For those who don't get it, collect Firesign Theatre albums in mass quantities, or sign up for "Summer Camp at Selkirk's farm" this summer. No trains, but a LOT of fun. :)
It's the express service that's the part-time extra. You could still get home on the local; it would just take a bit longer. Local passengers can't get home on the express. The local is the basic service that runs around the clock.
And that basic service that runs around the clock should have a consistent name that stays the same around the clock, so the people who depend on that basic service don't have to memorize schedules.
I don't care what that name is. It seems like calling it the B would be most consistent with current practice. You don't like that? Fine, call the full-time basic local service the D and the part-time express service the B. It makes no difference to me as long as the basic local service doesn't go by one letter at some times and a different letter at other times.
wayne
Sentimental BS aside, the JOB of a TRANSIT authority is to get people from point A to point B in their LIFETIME. If swapping the lines works for the better, then I have no objections other than a nostalgic twinge. I don't PAY the TA to keep my damned train on a bridge or passing Heypaul's house. But I *would* be honked off severly if my D train wasn't the master of its domain. Whatever THAT is. :)
Good. So it can be the master of the West End Line.
(and then loop through CI, back up the Culver, along the Crosstown Line and as Queens Local to 179th/Hillside...)
Including the remarkably inappropriately named QT. I mean what QT is gonna ride through the rathole for starters and THEN ride the Blighton Line to CI... shurely shome mishtake?
By the same logic, the B belongs in "B"righton "B"each (hey, TWO Bs!) and the D belongs in Bensonhurst.
Anybody else wan the the B/D back on their "orignal historic routes"? I do!
OK.
B: No B, BB instead:
Rush hours only from 34th Street-Herald Square to 168th Street-Washington Heights via CPW Local
D:
Rush hours from Hudson Terminal via 6th Avenue local, other times from 34th Street-Herald Square to 205th Street via CPW Express and Concourse Local. Rush hours peak direction only express on Concourse.
The Q has the better claim to "original service" on the Brighton, being the successor to the Broadway-Brighton, which was the successor to the Park Row service (same markers--Red-Green).
What difference does it make which 6th Avenue train runs where? How many people from Brooklyn go north of 59th?
WHAT!!!??? Don't be a wisea**, boy. Keep talkin' that trash, you gonna get the 18th Avenue treatment. Listen to you....why you puttin' down my neighborhood like that? Bensonhurst is a true Brooklyn neighborhood. You understand what I'm saying? We utilize all the cultural resources available throughout the city, as any well-rounded citizen of this great metropolis can do so at their desire. And, and it's a BIG and, we got heart. Brooklyn heart, the best of `em all. Can you understand that? British James? It's a proud thing, man. You should be so lucky as to have lived there. And that smiley don' mean squat. Respect, Jack. Show some.
Or as we say on the block: "Shaddup!!"
I didn't know the Museum of Natural History was so bad it was an insult. Sorry.
Dang, you off base here man. I jumped up plenty a times in defense of Bed Stuy, Atlantic Avenue, Jamaica line, Nostrand Ave, Fulton Street, Crosstown Line, whatever. I busted on some guys more than once when I'm hearing s**t like "Is the neighborhood "safe"?". Yeah, mo, and check THIS out. I dig the J, B, but I lived near the N line. Home base. You got yours. I got mines.
It's all Brooklyn so it's all good. Capische?
Beeeyuutiful! There's a lot of truth in that. Brooklyn is one of those places that, if you've been away for a while, it REALLY feels like you're coming home when you return. (But in Brooklyneeze that'd probably be "youse".)
I think it's some of each. Since the MTA has "branded" its services as letters, it makes a lot of sense to get as much consistency as possible--therefore the Brighton Express is always a "B" and vice versa.
All they need is a little publicity for their new choices, have people remember that
B is for BRIGHTON and
D is for DA WEST END!
If that logic applied, then the damned LL train would run on the Brighton (LL for "Lucky Luciano") ... :)
Oh stop it. :)
If that logic applied, then the damned LL train would run on the Brighton (LL for "Lucky Luciano") ... :)
What extra transfer? Nothing will end at 34th Street anymore once the Manny B is fully operational.
- - - - -
[....people's not gonna like that b/c it has WAY more riders than the West End and it makes no sense to put the full time line on the lighter used route.]
Who said there would be NO full-time serivce on Brighton? Does the Q not count as a route because it uses Broadway?
- - - - -
Aside from the (tremendously petty) Broadway-vs.-Sixth debate, the nice feature of the "official" plan is that Brighton and West End each have one full-time "main line" route (Q and D, respectively) and one part-time "overflow" route (B and M, respectively). What's the problem?
Except that the D went away to college, and now has to strike out on its own!
Will Brighton riders really be upset because a different letter is used on the train? Will property values along the Brighton really diminish because of that new letter? Are people (outside Manhattan) really that petty and superficial?
Umm on weekends in particular if this current plan holds up, people lose a direct 1 seat ride via the Brighton they have to take the Q to 34 St to continue north [who really likes to use the transfer at Atlantic/Pacific].
To misquote William Shatner on Saturday Night Live: "Get a life! It's just a letter on a train." The world will not come to an end if the D runs on the West End instead of the Brighton. Repeat: The world will not come to an end if the D runs on the West End instead of the Brighton.
Western civilization has experienced actual atrocities in recent history and somehow it still survived, so stop kvetching about a stupid letter on a train.
There, I said it.
Or point to: http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-nytax253253425apr25,0,4470390.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dtrans
The MTA employees were not involved in any organized scam but heard about ways to eliminate withholding by word of mouth, Farrell said.
Classic. You couldn't make this stuff up.
---Choo Choo
The IRS is supposed to review the person's prior returns to see if the claim of 14 exemptions is reasonable. In some cases such as a large family with mortgage interest and real estate taxes, 14 or more could be a correct number.
If the IRS feels that the number of allowances is excessive, then they are to notify the employer what the number of allowances that the employee will be allowed to claim.
Wonder if the MTA complied with this requirement. Not sure if the state has a similar requirement for their equivalent form IT-2104.
Then again, as Leona Helmsley put it, "only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes." Ah, the benefits of a "straight corporation." Where's my dividend check?
The federal government over the past 10 years has slowly moved over to an electrnic reporting requirement for certain forms adding addtional forms each year. Once the forms are in the computer system the IRA or State taxation department needs to have scripts that check for certain red flags. those scripts may or may not be in place.
The end result is that it is impossible to manually check all fillings. The forms are only looked at when a complaint is made allowing tax cheats to run wild cheeting the public. The state most likely stumbled upon these guys becasue a similar scheme was investigated a few years back.
Seems simple enough - exemptions claimed on one form, compare to dotNET SQL on other form ... if not equal (form1, form2) then crash.
Or, in Vishul Basic:
10 SIN
20 GOTO HELL
Simple enough. :)
To me if it's mission critical I am not running a microsoft product
I'll wait until they get Win98 fixed. Ya just GOTTA love it though ... that's another reason why I personally have turned into a Luddite, being a programmer and all. I wouldn't DARE ride a railroad system where the train has to be rebooted several times each trip, nor would I trust my two dollars to a scratch and sniff card that uses NTee to determine if I ride or go to jail.
If it weren't for my digital camera and certain other programs I'd have no Windows on my computer. Most of my work gets done under Linux and very rarely do I have a problem.
Anyone else using such an OS check out OpenEXR for fixing up the colors and such in your images. HDRI does wonders for pictures shot in poor conditions (like underground).
What does the 142/143 runs as its base OS?
But click HERE and let me know if the RTO clock I have here is the same one you saw ... and yes, it's SAFE to click, even if you're running Microsoft. :)
As for Microsoft, I only run Office:Mac v.X (although my wife and daughter use IE instead of Netscape) on my Mac.
Many of our laws are based on self enforcement. There are many people who take advantage of these laws. Fortunitly modern Inforamtion technology allows us to check more and more of these schemes thus stoping these crooks from robbing the hard working tax paying public
even with modern computer tehnology it is difficult to root out all schemes. There is just not enough computing power available.
CG
Zero supervision at all levels of the MTA lead to a culture of not taken intitative when problems are detected that is if the Personel dept even looked at the forms
That is why Smart computer systems were developemed to detect such simple irregualartites that human paper pushers have proved not willing to weed out. The people in persnel may not even know the tax laws. If they possesed a high level of knowledge they would not be pushin papers for the MTA they would have left for highe paying employment.
Unfotunitly the technology was slow to roll out in the public sector.
Instead of NYC Transit it would be IRS transit and the IRT would become IRS.
The W train would become the W-2 train, there already is a W-4 station, so that would fit.
The IRT trains would get new 4 digit numbers like 1040 and 1099 (and 1040EZ).
Instead of a bonus on a Metrocard Taxocard, you would have to return all of your cards on April 15 in order to get a fare refund.
Even with all this, dependents under 44" still ride free. :-)
Maybe we'll see such a thing on october 27th, 2004.
--Mark
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=metro/specials/metrorail&contentId=A43138-2003Apr26¬Found=true
Please comment.
Mark
p.s.--It'd be a shame if it happened on a CAF car--
I only rode the northern extremity of the Green Line between Fort Totten and Greenbelt. From what I've heard, the SE quadrant of DC by the Anacostia River where the other end of the Green Line runs is the most dangerous. So I avoided that neck of the woods.
The DC Metro seemed to have its fair share of beggars and vagrants- especially by fare control- by other than that it seemed very safe. Even said beggars and vagrants were very passive and benign, showing none of the persistence and belligerence one might encounter when resisting one here.
One day I rode the Red Line towards Wheaton around afternoon school dismissal. There were some talkative teenagers on the train who were doing none of the stuff you see NY teenagers do on trains when they're sprung for the day.
Also, if you apply good common sense (absent in a lot of our citizens it seems) you can ride almost anywhere without being attacked. For the south end of the Green Line (Anacostia) just stay within the fare paid area, or take pics from the platform.
True. And after guns are banned there will be shootings in subways, malls, schools and on the streets, except that regular people will never be able to defend themselves.
Agreed. I don't choose to carry a gun on a regular basis, but it is my choice not to do so... and if at some point I choose to carry one again, for whatever (non-criminal) reason, I will.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(former high school champion marksman)
Then, the only people who will have guns would be:
The police - very interesting
The military - even more interesting
Criminals - what we already have
You can think that you'll end killings by banning guns, but remember it is the person who kills, and the gun is only the Instrument.
Put a gun on a table and let it sit there - it will never fire a shot. That is until someone who is motivated to commit a crime gets their hands on it.
Limiting or abolishing the legal sale of guns to individuals who want them will not bring a stop to criminals getting their hands on guns.
The last great US experiment in this regard was called Prohibition.
Jim K.
Chicago - Who by the way does enjoy his 2nd amendment rights because owning a gun in Chicago is against the law. However, we have shootings EVERYDAY here in Chicago.
You still have a similar failure going on: The Drug War.
BTW, the Second Amendment is the most misunderstood amendment in the Bill of rights. It specifically refers to the Common Defense of the United States, not that every person in the country has the right to own a gun.
The Founding Fathers felt that before we had a standing army (a concept that the British had and we didn't want that) every male between 16 and 65 had to own a rifle (note: not a handgun). The states mantained a Militia, which contained the above 16-65 males, and the States could defend the Union. The Civil War brought the standing army to the United States, and the Militia eventually became the National Guard.
It's the gun lobby and specifically the National Rifle Association that constantly push the "unlimited guns for all" line.
There's no easy solution to the problem, and until cooler heads prevail, it's not going to change.
As to owning guns, I do as well and the only time the .45 Colt Automatic comes out of the gun safe is on the range. The 3 rifles and shotgun haven't been fired in a long time. I don't go out and kill Bambi (great line, really shake up the females), I prefer the streetcar.
Come the depression, and the second deck was put on hold. Come the post-war period, and cars totally supplanted any idea of rail.
In my days at the PA, I never heard of any plan to run a subway on the lower deck.
I have not been able to read the document myself, but here is where you can find it.
American Society of Civil Engineers
"Transactions" Volume 97, published 1933
There are 8 separate technical papers about the bridge construction comprising over 400 pages.
There is a copy in the NYC public library, 188 Madison Avenue at 34th street.
This info was passed on to me by Larry Furlong of the NYD ERA during an exchange of e-mails a few months ago on my history of the IND document posted to this site.
--Mark
Franklin Square closed on July 10, 1939. On February 15, 1953, the Bridge line was extended to 16th/15th.
The Bridge line closed on December 28, 1968. Service would resume under PATCO on February 15, 1969 (PATCO actually started running from Broadway-Camden to Lindenwold on January 4). Franklin Square was reopened between 5/14/76 and 9/7/79. Woodcrest opened on February 1, 1980.
Was there some reason why service could not have been changed without interruption? That several-week break in service must have been a huge inconvenience for many commuters.
COme to think of it, they'd need to reconfigure the Jersey side too by bulding flyover ramps from the inner lanes to the bridge plaza bus stop.
There should also be a bus-only lane the entire length of Route 4 (and Route 17 for Short Line/Trailways buses), but whatever.
NJ Transit/Coach USA/PANYNJ could probably care less since the George buses don't really seem to get much attention.
The rails will seep into that area sooner or later. The HBLR is getting there. And it would have been a very useful edge-of-the-city corridor if there had been rails built with the bridge. Would've meshed perfectly with any Bergen County LR line that might get built. I've always found it strange that this large urban area filled with dense neighborhoods, and punctuated frequently by immense residential towers has developed so heavily without a rail transit component. The buses....I know. And now, happily, the ferries. But the lack of a central intra-region transit line has, I think, balkanized all the little "boros" of that section of New Jersey. Perhaps the residents like it that way. Change can come anyway. With the line from Bayonne to Hoboken, it has made traveling between them equivalent to riding from Brooklyn Bridge to 125th St. on the Lex. (Local, of course) In 10 or so years, the differences will be striking. It'll probably start to feel like the "new" West Side of Manhattan. That's what rail does. Buses don't even come close to having those widespread repercussions.
The middle lanes of the upper deck were not originally used due to light depression-era and World War II traffic. In 1946 the two middle lanes were finally opened for vehicular traffic, increasing the upper deck width to eight lanes.
BTW, it may be of interest to many subtalkers that prior to the construction of the GWB and the Holland Tunnel, a massive bridge was suggested (around 1920 or so) to connect New Jersey to Manhattan in the vicinity of W 57th Street, to carry railroad (the non-PRR lines that ended at the river shoreline), trolley, and highway traffic. The huge cost and difficult approaches killed the project early on.
The GW upper deck originally contained 9 automobile lanes, when the middle was filled in. The outer roadways were 3 lanes each and had a dedicated direction. The inner roadway was 3 lanes whose direction could be changed based on demand. This arrangement changed in the 1980's when the upper deck was replaced to the present 4x4 and a divider down the middle.
Phil Hom
Waiting for good information on Phase II - IND.
Wouldn't that be a bit of a grade?
The R32s, being built totally of stainless steel (Budd's patented design), could probably last virtually forever (at least the carbodies, mechanical components do wear out and need to be replaced every few decades). They will celebrate their 40th birthday next year.
Chicago's Metra (commuter rail) system has some Budd-built commuter coaches (double-deck gallary style) that are over 50 years old (but, then again, the main mechanical parts on these are the air conditioning - they're locomotive-hauled).
-- Ed Sachs
The R-44s are going to be retired "early" because even the best of maintenance is not enough to overcome flaws in its design and workmanship. Better maintenance has helped its MDBF rate, but it's still scheduled to be replaced by 160s when they arrive in a couple years. I still don't think today's new arrivals will still be running in 2053. As today we don't see cherrywood and mahogany in rapid transit cars, tomorrow we won't see 45, 50, and 60 year lifespans on our subway rolling stock.
People used to say that about automobiles, and point to a few examples to prove their cases. It's not true. Simplicity of design is a virtue, but a 1969 Buick Skylark still would not fare as well, overall, as a car in the same class of 2003. The one area where there WAS a tradeoff, though, was in collisions: the 2003 automobile is designed, essentially, to self-destruct to protect the passenger and driver. The 1969 model was not.
There's another issue: A mechanic who criticizes a new car because it's more complicated than the 20 year old one isn't pointing out the new car's flaws. He's pointing out that his own skills are no longer up to par. There's a difference.
You base your comments on a few surviving examples of old cars. They are nice, but they do not represent, overall what happened to the fleet in general. And you're more likely to pay attention to the survivors. Your example is the exception that proves the rule, not the other way around.
"The R-44s are going to be retired "early" because even the best of maintenance is not enough to overcome flaws in its design and workmanship."
Unfortunately true - I take it body rust is one of the biggest issues. The R44 broke new ground in technology, speed and ride comfort. But the TA asked a lot of it, and some of the design aspects were flawed.
"I still don't think today's new arrivals will still be running in 2053. As today we don't see cherrywood and mahogany in rapid transit cars, tomorrow we won't see 45, 50, and 60 year lifespans on our subway rolling stock."
You have little basis on making a claim like that. In fact, there's every reason to believe the new cars will outlast the old ones. And NYCT's more mature maintenance approach will help. The key is training technicians to take full advantage of everything the new subway cars offer.
The TA used to assume 30 years. Recently, it re-issued all the debt used to purchase the R62s for an additional 30 years after 20. Post 1980 cars had better last for 50 years.
(One wonders...how long will the new R142s and R143s last? What
will the world be like when these hi-tech cars are deemed as outmoded as the vintage cars they replaced? Only time will tell....)
Remember that the Redbirds and R10s had to be completely overhauled down to the shell to last 40+ years. The famous "Q" units were completely rebuilt. Unlike those cars, newer cars are stainless steel, and the very newest cars are designed with snap out-snap in modules. So 50 years, or even more, may be reasonable, though at some point only 1/3 of the car's components by value may be original.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the R46s hit 40. If their components are basically sound, the TA may want to go the re-manufacturing route to save some money. But only if the new seats and panels match the old autumn leaves and dark wood colors! (Even I can be an anti-progress irrational guy on my own line).
With newer cars especially cars with computer systems it makes sense to change out the central computers every 5-10 years because it is far cheaper to do so then to service old parts.
The airforce has this problem with it's fighter jets and other computer systems. they have tried a few apraoches to ensure the obsolete parts are available
1) Buy enough parts for 10 years of repair and maintance
2) Find manuafacturers that will custom manaufacture the parts
3) reguaraly schedual system upgrades
Reguarlly upgrading the computer systems is the best apoach because it keeps newer and older models on the same level plus adds functionality not availble when the original was purchaced
Airplanes seem to last a long time, though they are similarly rebuilt over and over. So do ships. Both face greater stresses -- pressure, temperture, salt water -- than subway cars.
Seems like automobiles and buses are the exception; they don't last like the other vehicles do.
In the cases of buses, other factors such as road salt, pot holes effect the life of key components.
A comprehensive rebuild would extend there lifes. The crapy rebuild as few years ago were not the best quality from what bustalk posters have posted
In addition the move to low floors make rebuilding high floor desiel buses less attractive.
Yet cars actually last longer now than they used to, and the average age of cars on the road has gone up.
An airplane's lifespan is determined not by its age in years, but by the number of takeoffs and landings it's been through. Its airframe goes through intense stress during takeoff and landing but relatively little while actually in flight.
Buses and autos' lives are usually measured in miles and not years. Buses can last for several million miles. Autos won't last nearly as long as buses, trains or planes mainly because cars owners don't have the budget of the other modes. If a person can afford to overhaul like they are done with trains and planes (replacing motors, transmissions, axles, brake systems and interiors every x number of years), then they would last for several decades.
My brother in law just overhauled his 1987 jeep cherokee.
He uses it when he goes to his vacation home and has no internions of paying $35k for an new jeep
You still didn't answer my question.
In order to get the discount you have to add a minimum of $15 (current) or $10 (starting Sunday) to get the bonus add-on.
If you add $.50 to $14.50 to get $15.00 you will NOT get the extra $1.50 bonus. And starting Sunday if you add $.50 to $9.50 to make $10.00 you won't get the extra $2.00 bonus.
The incentive to get the bonus is to add the full minimum amount required.
Does this make it any clearer American Trayfe?
No he didn't. And neither did you.
Does this make it any clearer American Trayfe?
Your wrong answer is just as good as Douce Man's.
I'll ask again: Is it possible to add an amount *AFTER MAY 4TH* to a Metrocard that's more than $10 but not divisible by 50¢ and get the full bonus?
Have I answered your question NOW?
You appear to be trying to avoid answering his question. How much credit would you get if you tried to add $13.33 to a MetroCard after May 4th (if you can add that sort of odd amount)?
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
Now it is clear, but is it correct? Other posts have suggested that the minimum additions have to be in multiples of $0.05 so that $13.35 or $13.40 would be acceptable but $13.37 would not. Since I will not be purchasing any Metrocards in the near future, I will accept your word and not worry about it.
Tom
You keep answering a question correctly, it just isn't mine (which I have already answered for myself).
I don't care what the policy between now and the end of May 3rd is, since I as I said I won't be doing any adding before the hike.
I believe the manual add-on amount is from $3 to $80.
No, this is NOT true. Don't post when you don't know the answer, somebody might actually take you seriously.
And $30 is not one of the pre-valued buttons.
There may have been in the past, but there isn't one now. There may still be a $30 pre-wrapped Metrocard, but the only way to buy a $30 card (with $3 bonus) from an MVM is to use the other amount feature.
Specifically, I asked if I could pay $10.42 and get $12.50 of Metrocard value, in case I had $1.50 left over on my card on May 4th.
Today I played with MVMs using some combinations (and always cancelling).
You can't add $10.42 because the MVM will not accept values not divisible by 5¢. It will give a bonus on those 5¢.
I made an Excel table.
The whole system is very deep underground, with very long escalators. The stations at the bottom have a wide central concourse with a platform at each side. They are in a similar style to the Moscow system (marble-tiled walls, no advertising), and all the stations have different and often very attractive artistic styles. The central concourses seem somewhat smaller than the pictures I've seen suggest the Moscow ones are. There are four lines with a total of 58 stations - not a large system for a city of five million - and the system is heavily used and very crowded. The trains are seven cars (a three-car unit coupled to a four-car unit), and are rather plain and straight-sided with longitudinal seating only. Difficult to say how old they are, and they all look the same. They are very frequent, seeming to run at better than 30 tph on all four lines. They are painted dark blue, and seemed very clean inside and out (no graffiti, a few scratchitti). At stations in the suburbs there seemed to be lots of transferring to (mostly old and decrepit) buses for onward transit. The stations are quite far apart, so the system is not particularly useful for travelling around the central area.
Line 1 (the oldest) has a break in it in the northeastern suburbs, where the tunnel collapsed in 1996. I didn't manage to ride on the isolated part; I assume it must be run with the trains that happened to be on the other side of the gap when the collapse occurred. The gap is covered by a free shuttle bus, which runs very frequently with articulated buses but is still jam-packed. I'd guess that repairing this gap would be top priority for any available investment. Nevertheless there are also plans for an extension of line 4 and a new line 5, but I'd guess that these are probably pipedreams.
In the central area the system is planned so that each line has one interchange station with each other line, making six stations in all where transfer is possible. One fare gets you the whole metro system, but there are no free transfers to or from buses or trams - bus and tram fares are slightly cheaper (6 roubles instead of 7 on the metro). Most of the interchange stations involve walking through a passageway between the concourse of one line and the concourse of the other, but at one of them (Technological Institute station where the 1 & 2 lines meet), the interchange is Queensborough Plaza fashion, with cross-platform interchange between the northbound 1 and northbound 2 at one concourse and between the southbound 1 and southbound 2 at the other.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
Supposedly it'll re-open "v 2003 godu". Let's wait and see.
KEEP BACK FROM THE EDGE.
(Or anything that looks like the edge.)
WORDS TO LIVE BY;
"Watch for oncoming traffic when exiting the bus."
I'm not sure if there is a third or fourth one out there. I found these at a Metrocard reader, so check those readers !
Bill "Newkirk"
1) Why runfor the Train? There's another one jush like it on the way.
2) Honld onto your youth, your dreams, and while you're at it, the handrails.
3)Please, no running in the station. (Although we applaud your boundless energy and zest for living.)
4) Please use handrails on stairs and escalators. They're free.
5) & 6) are the ones you typed in.
Robert
BTW, you must have missed Allan's post that announced these two cards ... got to wade thru all the post here every day or you are going to miss something realy important :-)
As of now, I am hoarding the new MetroCards with the messages on the back. I also have the two different versions of the "Hold onto your youth, your dreams, and while you're at it, the handrails" MetroCard; one has the message in the usual color and font while the other has a slightly different font.
I also have a Zagats Survey Metrocard that has a review of some restaurant on the back. Has anyone seen other Zagats Metrocards?
Robert
The Zagat cards are long gone. I doubt if any MVM's still have them.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's possible too. Although, I haven't seen any Zagats at the readers lately. Just the "safety" cards and the generic ones with the instructions.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably a different run or manufacturer. Back about a couple of ears ago, there was a Koszmo.com Metrocard. Some diehard Metrocard collectors were buzzing about how many variations of this card were out with just a slight difference in shade of the green logo or tghe orange background.
And there was the upside down American Express car that had a what looked like a faint stripe running through it while the others didn't. You had to look real careful to spot it since it wasn't that obvious. That taking collecting to extremes. I just have one of each, that's fine by me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill is posting about new flavors of the card.
Not exactly, but there's nothing wrong with a little reminder.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
"KEEP BACK FROM THE EDGE.
(Or anything that looks like the edge.)"
cards.
---Choo Choo
That's were I find my cards, either in the stuffed card slot or on top of the reader. The truth about these "Safety card" is there are so many of them, you become complacent. You have to check the reader to see if a new one debuted or not.
As far as the cards go, while the safety issue and public awarness is a good thing, the card is bland and sucks. They could have added some color and have alternate black and yellow safety stripes to jazz it up a bit. I'd like to see important announcements on the back of Metrocards, like the reopening of Stillwell Terminal, resumption of Manhattan Bridge Sixth Ave. service and the recent no (Q) trains over the Manny B. I guess that would make sense, so I'll leave it go at that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Click here, then scroll down to "May I Have Your Attention Please?" Be sure to listen to the call-out by clicking on the .wav icon.
Very nice job on the article.
Yesterday on the 4:04 PJ train, we overshot by 3 car lenghts. The loco and two coaches didn't platform. Only the last door on the last car could be opened. Enter the station doing about 45, BIE 1/3 of the way through and couldn't stop in time.
CG
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I overshot Tremont southbound twice - once by half a car, once by two. Put half a car out twice at 34th northbound, as well as 7th Avenue Brooklyn once. You buzzed back one long, then had a confab, then made sure that the breakers were cut out before allowing your conductor to pull the triggers. Back in the 70's, sheet happened. Today, you get to kiss the sidewalk and fill up a cup with recycled beer. :)
TODAY though, it's death penalty. Pucker up, go undercar, lift the woody and kiss the rail. Beats talking to the trolls. :(
I'd rather do a "BENDER" and abuse electricity. Heh. First season of Futurama CD ... can't help myself, it was a GIFT. Enjoy it immensely. Rule was, back in my day, you could NOT abuse the reverser key, but if you had to cut out doors owing to an errant Arnine, no biggie. But you'd FAIL to "beat the clock" as a result of the gyrations. If you couldn't MAKE UP TIME, then you had an abusive TMO to deal with who wanted to know why YOUR phuckup wasn't on the GAP SHEET. I'm sure it hasn't changed much. Hit a ball, you're late. Overrun, you're LATE. Back then, it didn't matter ... you STILL got to pick a stuffed animal off the shelf because you MADE IT AT ALL! Heh.
But ya hadta PAY for it. :)
"This is the Brooklyn-bound ``B'' train, making all local stops wherever the hell I feel like it. Watch the closing doors. Bing-bong."
But sure does look like it'll go down among subtalkers as the official slogan of the Brighton local. :)
I know a few O/Cs that hit signals and got away with a few days of platform duty.
Fortunately, no 12-9s.
subfan
ONCE upon a time, the MTA's attitude about blowing a stop was HARMLESS (unless you screwed up three OTHER trains and made them blow the 6 minute "on time" rule) ... you could even BACK UP if nobody banged ya in ... but you'd come out, guard the doors, drop breakers for the car(s) that missed, buzz back AFTER cutting out what need to be, and open sesame ... no biggie. Had to run FAST to make time, but there you were if the train GOT you there.
Can't believe how *ANAL* the MTA's gotten over "chit happens" ... it's ONE thing to keep miscreants out of the cab - whole NOTHER to punish those who effectively *DEAL* with it, keep everybody safe, *****AND****** "beat the clock." :(
PROFESSIONALS ONLY GET SHAFTED ... What's the POINT? :(
PHUCK the "customers" ... :(
Reality before the SMEEs was ... where it stopped, GOD intended for it to stop ... HERE. Heh. Wasn't such a big deal years ago ... chit HAPPENED. We DEALT with it, and unless you were drunk or stoned (they KNEW) it was just another day on the deferred-maintenance railroad. The CAR INSPECTORS got to see the doctor. If you actually MADE it to the terminal, the TMO would light CANDLES in celebration, and the crew would be deigned to SMOKE the chicken in celebration. Lava lamp at no extra charge to accrued leave. Heh.
ANYONE who has a *REAL* Arnine brake handle can tell you what da guys were doing inda yard ... lemme put it to you THIS way. ON da "underside" of the handle is a hole. Convenient to ANY "brass lamp parts SCREEN" (or "faucet strainer," depending on what the "head shop" sold it AS) ... THEN you had a hole from the "business end" of the handle right strasight through TO that hole. I won't say "MTA ISSUED HASH PIPE, but anyone who HAS one of MY handles can GUARANTEE you, you COULD smoke through a "MTA brake handle" ... anyone doubts, I'll SHOW YOU. :)
'word. :)
I was riding the Market-Frankfort El on the 69th St. side of the line.
The cars currently on the MFL were being delivered (that's what I was riding), so there were very few trains with new cars running.
Anyhow, we were pulling in to some station on the El. I said to myself that we were not going to stop in the station. Sure enough, we went about a half car length past the end of the platform. I said to myself, 'This is going to be interesting.' It wasn't, the operator just backed up!
This has left me wondering how realistic a 30sec dwell time is for a NY subway train in peak conditions, even given good scheduling and disciplined operation. Two things over the weekend added to my thoughts here.
Firstly I took a ride on the driverless London Docklands Light Railway on Sunday evening through an as yet little developed bit of docklands. At most stations the train did no business, the computer unlocked the doors (doors are push-button customer operated), the train captain opened the nearest door, looked out, closed the door, handed control back to the computer and the train restarted. Whilst the train captain's duties include fare inspection, with a very light load he was clearly anticipating stops and being by a door at the right time, so no delays there. The average dwell time was 25 seconds.
Secondly I read in a magazine here about two competing designs of mu stock being run on the mainline railways here. One was causing concern because its slow door operation meant it struggled to meet 1 minute dwell times whilst its competitor could manage 35 seconds. [I'm guessing these figures are also in the absence of significant passenger business otherwise the comparison would mean nothing in the context it was presented].
Now neither of these are heavy rail transit like the NY Subway. But I can see no reason why such transit should do any better. Unfortunately during my time in New York I never measured dwell time, but I feel 30 seconds is a very short time to open doors, deal with a rush hour passenger load, close doors and depart. Let alone include contingency for unexpected incidents like passengers holding doors, etc.
Does anybody have any evidence about the achievable dwell times?.
Dwell times are due to:
1. Number of passengers waiting to get on and off. This can be better controlled if trains come exactly on schedule (neither early or late).
2. Unruly passengers who think it's their constitutional right to hold the doors for people coming down the stairs. This phenomenon may be stronger in NYC than elsewhere and is hard to control.
3. Mecahnical issues like the Union Square moving platforms that add 20 seconds of unproductive time.
Maybe 40 tph isn't possible, but NYCT could try harder on item #1.
I've personally seen dwell times at 14th on the southbound 4/5 that exceed 45 seconds. But they were very variable. Again, more attention to item #1 might make them less variable.
First step: Something I'm surprised hasn't happened already. UNIFIED SYSTEM TIME DOWN TO THE SECOND. Every bus, turnstile, and other platform clocks should be set up at what should be known as system time, and if possible, have system time set to actual satellite time.
So, an averge dwell time of 64.3 sec consists of 41.2 sec of passenger flow with an average headway of 164.7 sec. One would expect that passenger flow time would be proportional to headway. There for a headway of 90 sec would mean a passenger flow time average of: 22.5 seconds.
At this point we're still in the game for 40 tph operation.
Not necessarily, because passengers tend to arrive on the platform in big bunches, not in a steady stream. Once the train doors open, they remain open until every passenger standing at the platform edge has entered that can be physically accommodated (and I don't see that changing). I would agree with Stephen that these variables are correlated; that is not the same mathematical statement as saying they are proportional.
On top of that, one must bear in mind that the problem isn't merely the dwell time at Grand Central (although that is concededly the worst problem), but the fact that it's highly variable at all stations.
I suspect that a graph of passenger flow time and headways would show a relationship that's asymptotic. In lay terms: as headways become shorter, there's a diminishing return.
"At this point we're still in the game for 40 tph operation."
As stated over & over again on this board, dwell times are merely one of many factors limiting tph on the Lex (or on any other line). The other factors are split/merge constraints and time it takes to turn trains at certain terminals.
I think Larry Littlefield's cogent point was that shorter headways will increase the standard deviation, because any slight perturbation of the expected arrival/departure times tends to have an amplified impact on the rest of the line when trains are much closer together. (He didn't use those exact words, but I think that was his point.)
To give a simple analogy, if I'm driving on a highway with ample space separating me from all other drivers, then my changing speeds (even drastically) won't immediately affect others. If everyone on the highway is tailgating, then even a slight change could affect every car in the vicinity. That's why, when cars are closer together, they don't maintain their speed; they slow down.
I meant to say that the average flow time is proprtional to headway. I did not mean to imply the actual flow time is proportional to headway. I used the word "average" 3 times in my statement. I should have used it 4 times.
There are studies that show the relation between total dwell time and headway for different North American systems.
As stated over & over again on this board, dwell times are merely one of many factors limiting tph on the Lex (or on any other line). The other factors are split/merge constraints and time it takes to turn trains at certain terminals.
The split/merge and non-loop terminal problems are really the same problem. More than one train cannot occupy the same track (the interlocking) at the same time. However, this is really a process variability problem. Suppose it takes 60 seconds for a train to clear an interlocking (interlocking 100' + train length 500' @ 7 mph). Suppose trains operate at 144 second intervals (25 tph). If the trains are on schedule, then there will be a cushion of 144 - 60 = 84 seconds at the interlocking. If both trains are within 84/2 = 42 seconds of their schedule, then there will not be any merge/split problem. Trains must be within 30 seconds of schedule to guarantee no merge/split conficts for 30 tph and they must be within 15 seconds of schedule to guarantee no merge/split conflicts at 40 tph operation.
To give a simple analogy, if I'm driving on a highway with ample space separating me from all other drivers, then my changing speeds (even drastically) won't immediately affect others. If everyone on the highway is tailgating, then even a slight change could affect every car in the vicinity. That's why, when cars are closer together, they don't maintain their speed; they slow down.
The analogy does not hold because the trains are not "tailgating" with 90 second headways. The worst case scenerio is when the leader not only slows down but stops in the station for 30 seconds before departing. Even that is not enough to delay the following train, if it started 90 seconds behind the leader.
1. Do you have any evidence that the Lexington Ave signaling system is not a cause for delays if trains are at 90 second headways and each train stops for 30 seconds at each station? I've read your assertion to that effect many times, but if you ever explained why this is the case I've missed it.
2. Only 30 seconds stopping at Union Square is an impossibility with the current gap fillers. The time required to extend them, plus the time for which the train is moving at less than 2 mph to allow them to retract (essentially stopping time as far as the signaling system is concerned) is at least 15 seconds if not 20.
Yes. The critical points are: how soon after a train starts to leave a station can the following train enter and will the following train see a green aspect if it leaves the station 90 seconds after its leader.
I have checked the timings of the signals at all the stations on the Lex from 138th to Bowling Green. I've also measured braking time. These measurements were taken at off peak to test only the signal system. The data showed that 90 second headway is possible.
2. Only 30 seconds stopping at Union Square is an impossibility with the current gap fillers. The time required to extend them, plus the time for which the train is moving at less than 2 mph to allow them to retract (essentially stopping time as far as the signaling system is concerned) is at least 15 seconds if not 20.
The gap fillers do not affect dwell time. The extra time to extend the gap filler comes out of the braking time. The extra time to retract the gap filler comes out of acceleration time. I measured the average braking time for Union Sq to be 31.07 with a standard deviation of 1.43 seconds. I measured the average braking time for Grand Central to be 30.98 seconds with a standard deviation of 3.16 seconds. Again, a nominal 30 seconds is permitted.
The acceleration time is a bit worse. Access to the station is blocked for an average of 49.13 seconds which can be improved. There is another station that has an average of 46.11 seconds. What was done was to add an additional timer aspect. This guarantees limits the speed that the train can pass mid-platform to 20 mph. This permits the following train to enter the the station in an average of 36.33 seconds for a net gain 0f 10 seconds. The same strategy should be applied to all the stations although it is most critical to Union Sq and Grand Central.
Finally there is only 1 station which does not show a green aspect for the next train leaving the station after 90 seconds. That station requires an average of 90.85 to turn green. This station would become the choke point for 40 tph operation. It's not Union Sq and it's not Grand Central. It hasn't been mentioned in any discussion regarding capacity problems on the Lex.
My guess would be BB. The curve approaching Fulton may hold things up.
The average time for that signal to turn green is 86.34 seconds.
You should be able to get the answer by asking 4 questions. However, that wasn't the first question to ask for a certain answer with 4 questions. I'm afraid that you'll need to think or have some luck to get it in 3 more questions. :-)
You should be able to get the answer by asking 4 questions.
Okay - question 1 - is it on a pre Dual Contracts section?
No
That depends on what your definition of "just" is. :-)
BTW, I did say that 40 tph operation was necessary only between 138th St and Bowling Green. :-)
(At least I didn't suggest Queensboro Plaza. Or Journal Square.)
Yes, I see that binary search working :-)
There's only 1 station north of 86th at which 40 tph would stop under your proposal.
No
Time till red signal at 125th turned yellow after the previous downtown 4/5 train started moving: 101 seconds.
IT'S 125th ST. It isn't Union Sq; it isn't Grand Central. It's 125th St!!!
It hasn't been mentioned by any of the NYCT people as one of the Lex Ave congestion points for the Lex. The lack of such mention makes me wonder what are these people thinking?
Your observation appears excessive. I took 10 readings to get averages and standard deviations.
The reason for the slow change is usually due to switching tracks south of the station. My guess is that there may have been some work going on that may have caused the train you measured to stop.
I did measure the time to turn yellow as well as green. The time to turn yellow, after the train starts to leave is: 80.61 seconds with a std dev of 6 seconds. The range over 10 readings was: 71.07 to 93.85 seconds.
It went out of sight at about 20 mph. I got on the next train, which chugged along at 20 mph without blowing its horn for construction. Maybe the T/O knew he was ahead of schedule!
Access to the station is blocked for an average of 49.13 seconds which can be improved.
How can you improve Union Square? New gap filler panels that retract more quickly?
The length of the block leaving most stations is 1000-1200 feet according to the signals. Cut the block in half - for 2 500' blocks. This will clear the signals controlling access to the station more quickly, without affecting safety. That will cut the acceleration time by 10-15 seconds. (N.B. this suggestion was made by Mr. Jeff H).
New gap filler panels that retract more quickly?
That certainly would not hurt. The gap fillers retract rather quickly, once pushed. A system that retracted the gap fillers once the train doors closed is all that is needed.
Now the unfortunate woman with her purse strap caught in the door has the platform drop out from under her before the train starts to drag her.
Tom
But even with the gap filler retracted, It is highly likely the women won't fall to the tracks
in addtion the NEW CCTV camera's have reduced draggins due to better visability of the train operator
I don't know what NYCT is waiting for to extend the cameras to cover the entire platform and reduce crew size
Besides, if you are carrying out a death sentence for a railbuff, whould you use a bus, with a defective lift over a ConEd work pit?
Maybe (and even very probably) it's not possible to get 40 tph on the Lex with current equipment.
But that doesn't mean that NO improvements would be possible if NYCT were to manage train spacing and passenger behavior better.
Not only did Mr. Littlefield not make that statement but the assertion is false.
If shortening headways increased the standard deviation, what about the shortest headway - 0? Forget for the moment that two trains cannot occupy the same track at the same time. This is just to test the assertion.
There will be no people waiting for trains at 0 headway with probability 1.0. The standard deviation will also be 0.
The reverse is true: increasing headway increases standard deviation. Suppose I told you that 50 people entered a station in the last 20 seconds. Could you tell me with absolute certainty, how many people will arrive in the next 20 seconds? If the answer is yes, then the standard deviation for the combined 40 second period is the same as the standard deviation for the first 20 second segment - that is it remains the same. However, if the answer is no, then the standard deviation for the combined 40 second period is greater than the standard deviation for the first 20 second period.
BTW, in which journals do you publish? I'd like to lok up some of your work.
Yes, up to a point. However, as no-one (or virtually no-one) would wait for a train on a very large headway, say 31,557,600 seconds, the standard deviation of the dwell time would also tend toward zero. However, this is of little relevance to the Lexington Avenue Line.
True, but note that there are many public transportation services with headways as large as 86,400 seconds, or small multiples thereof. The dwell times of such services tend to be a minute or two at minor stations and quite a few minutes at major stations.
SAS draft EIS says 25 tph, which is 144 seconds. Quite a difference.
"flow time percentage of dwell time: 64%"
But you're assuming that you could keep that percentage at 64% even if flow time decreased. Isn't the non-flow dwell time associated with nuisance passengers who hold the doors, and with things that just take a few seconds, like closing the doors and starting the train.
Even if flow time decreases from 41.2 seconds to 22.5 seconds, how do you decrease non-flow dwell time from 22.1 seconds to 12.1 seconds?
But you're assuming that you could keep that percentage at 64% even if flow time decreased. Isn't the non-flow dwell time associated with nuisance passengers who hold the doors, and with things that just take a few seconds, like closing the doors and starting the train.
No, as I've stated on several occasions, dwell time is composed of 3 components: passenger flow; no passenger flow with doors open; no passenger flow with doors closed. I'm simply deriving the passenger flow component for passenger flow for the given data. I'm assuming that the average passenger flow component is proportional to the average number of passengers which is proprtional to the average headway. I've simply determined that average passenger flow time would be close to 22.5 seconds, if the average headway were 90 seconds. If this figure were greater than 30 seconds, then it would be difficult to show that 40 tph were possible because it would violate one of the signal system constraints.
It doesn't. Now the question is practicality, which brings up the question of process variations. One would expect that the standard deviation would vary as the square root of the ratio of the intervals. So, the expected standard deviation at 40 tph opertion would be close to 12.3 seconds. One would also expect that the standard deviation of the headway would be 42.7 seconds. Both these number are way too high for reliable operation at 90 second headways. They are also too high for reliable operation at 164.7 second headways - but that's another story. One would need to take proactive measures to bring down the variability.
Fortunately, there are many measures that can be taken because the NYCT essentially operates without any train supervision. Even the slightest, inexpensive measures will yield tremendous results because of the existing lack of train supervision.
And that is an expectation (mean) with what accuracy (sd)? (Bloody hell, this is confusing having an expectation of an sd!)
I think Stephen used the word expectation in its English rather than probabilistic meaning. More precisely, "according to the model, the sd will be 12.3 seconds."
Though there is a concept of an estimator, i.e., a rule for determining an attribute of a distribution. For example, a well know estimator of the variance of a distribution, using n samples, is
(sum of squares of deviations of samples from the sample mean)/(n-1)
Then that estimator does have a variance of its own!
The data would indicate otherwise. Figures 6-1 through 6-15 in TCRP Report 13, show dwell time and headway plotted for successive trains during rush hour for various North American systems. Figure 6-9 shows Grand Central S/B express from 7:43 through 8:27 am.
They did perform a regression analysis because they provide the slope: dwell time as a percentage of headway. They did not provide a correlation coefficient or any other goodness of fit measure.
To use less technical language than Stephen, his point is that if there were more trains per hour, and they arrived at regular intervals, each would be less crowded. Therefore dwell time would decrease, because fewer people would be getting on and off each train.
Unless, of course, existing overcrowding was significantly limiting usage of trains. In which case running more trains and thus reducing overcrowding may be expected to result in more people using the trains.
A similar effect is often seen when congested highways are widened; traffic expands to fill the extra lanes and the highway ends up as congested as it ever was.
Stephens point is true in certain situation such as adding an additional train will reballance train loads. But in the case of the Lex, any addded trains if possible to run would still be at near peak loads plus there is a portion of the population that currently takes cabs or other lines that would then use the Lex if it had more capasity thus removing the dwell time savings
Precisely what Virgin Trains have done. They ran nearly 100% more trains, but they were only half the length of the old trains so it cancelled out to a 0% service increase. They were then taken aback by a 40% increase in ridership. Oops.
Statistical extrapolations are not reliable until you've proven that the population you're studying actually has the assumed behavior. Otherwise, it's just an armchair puzzle untempered by reality.
In defense of Stephen (and I have sniped at him too), I would say:
1. The changes he suggests are inexpensive, especially compared to any other possible capacity improvement. How much can station clocks cost?
2. The changes have a real possibility of improving capacity even if not to anywhere near 40 tph.
3. The changes have never been tried by NYCT.
I just did some measurements at Union Square yesterday in the PM rush. A train went out of service, and several trains were backed up behind it. Every following train, once the doors closed, cleared out rapidly.
The times each successive train took to get to the rear of the station once the previous train had started to move were 82, 67, and 48 seconds.
Since all trains were behind schedule, this shows that one T/O (the third) was really good at keeping as close to schedule as possible, one was so-so, and one was really poor. Some T/O training on keeping on schedule might really help.
Consider these factors:
1. PASSENGERS HOLDING THE DOORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. Connecting with an arriving train
3. A train running ahead of schedule being held for time
4. Terminals- These trains may be able to detrain and entrain
as fast as your studies have shown. But where do they all go
at the end of their respective lines? What IRT terminal can
handle such short headways?
5. Unavoidable delays such as a police investigation, 12-9, stalled train, signal problems, etc...
There are 3 terminals at each end of the 4/5/6:
- Woodlawn (could also use Burnside if more trains are added), 238th, Dyre.
- Bowling Green, Utica, New Lots (Flatbush would have to go by the wayside if any more trains go to Brooklyn).
Consider these factors:
1. PASSENGERS HOLDING THE DOORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually I have included this factor. Passengers holding doors would occur only in the segment, where the doors are open and there is no passenger flow. I have time-weighted only the segment with passenger flow for dwell time.
2. Connecting with an arriving train
We're talking rush hours with 40 tph operation. There is no need for holding trains for connections.
3. A train running ahead of schedule being held for time
There would be clocks in every station to help the train crew stay on schedule (not early nor late). Consequently, there will be no accumulated early time and no need to hold a train for getting ahead of schedule.
4. Terminals- These trains may be able to detrain and entrain
as fast as your studies have shown. But where do they all go
at the end of their respective lines? What IRT terminal can
handle such short headways?
The major need for short headways is between 125th St and Bowling Green. The additional trains would terminate short of the end of line terminals. This would be 149th and Burnside on the Jerome Ave line and Bowling Green - South Ferry inner loop. The service to the existing terminals would remain at current levels.
5. Unavoidable delays such as a police investigation, 12-9, stalled train, signal problems, etc...
These are problems with any schedule not just 40 tph. You neglected to add power failures, earthquakes, floods, acts of war, etc. :-)
South Ferry (both loops) :-D
"Secondly I read in a magazine here about two competing designs of mu stock being run on the mainline railways here. One was causing concern because its slow door operation meant it struggled to meet 1 minute dwell times whilst its competitor could manage 35 seconds. [I'm guessing these figures are also in the absence of significant passenger business otherwise the comparison would mean nothing in the context it was presented]."
I don't know whether "here" meant the UK in Chris's message, but I can give an example of the effect of different types of rolling stock with different door configurations. Central Trains in the UK operates some class 170 "Turbostar" trains which have two wide double doors about 1/3 and 2/3 away along each car, and some of the older class 158 trains which have two single-leaf doors at the extreme ends of the cars. These two classes are used randomly in service. At Leicester, where I often see them, many trains have an almost complete turnover of passengers, so in peak hours a lot of people detrain and board. The 158s are nearly always late, because the dwell times are very long with their door configuration: can be 2-3 minutes just to get everyone off and the new lot on. The 170s load and unload far more quickly. Are these the two competing types you meant?
Yes, it did.
Are these (dmu classes 158/170) the two competing types you meant?
No. I was actually referring to a reference in this May's edition of Modern Railways. The two types in question were emus from Bombadier (the Electrostar) and Siemens (the Desiro). The Desiro (outwardly a much sexier design) was the one with slow doors.
Apparantly this is having an effect on the current project to update 3rd-rail power supplies, because the Desiro (being bought by South West Trains) will need to accelerate harder to maintain schedules than the Electrostar (being bought by South Central).
Well personally, I think I'd notice the fact that the TurboStar (170) has a diesel engine noisily vibrating away under the floor long before I noticed the absence of 3rd rail shoes. :-)
I'm afraid I have little time for the swish new generation of dmus, be they TurboStars, Voyagers or Adalantes, especially when used (as they tend to be) on the sort of longer distance journeys that previously saw HSTs or locomotive hauled coaches. They are just too noisy in the passenger areas.
No such problems with ElectroStars, Desiros or even Junipers. One of the big pluses of electric traction.
Eugh. Yes, I rode one of those monstrosities today (1549 at Leicester). They seem to be worse than those really antique slam door trains you used to see a lot in the Midlands.
At Leicester, where I often see them, many trains have an almost complete turnover of passengers
Yep, so I got a seat right at the back of the train. :-D
The 158s are nearly always late
I was lucky today. It ran on time. More than I can say for the #47 bus - I really had to leg it across the London Road and down onto the platform!
I actually rode the entire Eastern Division yesterday, with the exception of Halsey St (L), Sutphin, and Jamaica Center. My day started out at 6:00 AM, and I drove from Suffolk to park along the M line. I took the L to 8th Ave, and got an R32 A train to Penn Station. At the end of the platform (where the scrubber rooms are) was a rat helping himself to breakfast on top of some trash bags.
-By 9:00 the tour group was quite large, around 25 people. We proceeded to Manhattan Mall in Herald Square where we boarded a train to Union Square for the 6 to Chambers Street/Brooklyn Bridge, where our tour began. Chambers was it’s “charming” self, with debris all over the local platform, and of course foul smells from all angles (even the smell of burning).
-Our next stop was Canal Street where we explored the soon to be abandoned platform, and the progress of the realignment.
-Bowery was next, and that station seems a lot more interesting than it appears from the train (I had never set foot on the platform there). In the mezzanine, there was a sign of busier days at Bowery, when it actually had a newsstand, with mosaics to state that fact. We also saw the evidence a long sealed mezzanine, and the remnants of an old escalatorway, along with a door to nowhere, that would leave you falling from above the ceiling to the platform if you tried to use it. At this point, the soon to be Broad St bound trackway was basically a canal of water, with no tracks or ties.
-Essex and Delancey stations were next, where we observed the new stairway from the wall platform to the F mezzanine, making a much better transfer (only a Chrystie train could be easier). At Essex some of as were scolded by a power-playing bitch transit worker woman, who told us not to take any photos and it was “illegal on transit property”. We totally ignored her (we didn’t take photos, but didn’t even answer or acknowledge her statements – she seemed to be in search of an argument). We were all in a good mood, and didn’t need an argument to ruin everything.
-We proceeded over the bridge, and our next stop was Marcy Ave. We discovered them building a brand new station house, and that we were actually standing on the platform on it’s last day of service until September, when it will reopen.
-Next stop was Myrtle-Broadway, where we took an M R143 to Metropolitan Ave. It’s almost like a station in the middle of the woods, and very peaceful. The peace was disturbed when the group started screaming as a J train (R42) pulled into the station. It was then converted to an M to Bay Parkway and sent to the yard for Monday’s rush.
-Next stop was Myrtle-Wyckoff where we explored the former express track, the two abandoned and removed mezzanine areas, then we went down to the Myrtle (L) station. The station is in real sorry shape, and ready for the pending renovation. As usual at Myrtle, one of Fred’s Montague buddies made it’s way to the station.
-After a lunch break at the White Castle (or one of the fast food places there) we continued to Myrtle-Broadway to catch a J to Chauncey St, but after a stop at Kosiuscko Street, the train ran express on the local to BJ on an R40M that we kept encountering all day. Then our stops included:
-Broadway-Junction
-Bushwick-Aberdeen – most colorful and unique mosaics in the system.
-Wilson – (group photo)
-Atlantic (Canarsie Bound platform)
-Rockaway Parkway – and a trip to the old trolley ROW
-Atlantic - for out “final” trip over Snedicker and Manhattan Bound platform
-Broadway Junction (J)
-Alabama Ave – Express track provision
-Cleveland St – explored former LIRR Chestnut St incline
-Crescent Street curve, and former site of terminal station
-The tour ended at 121st Street, where many parted ways to Jamaica Station
As you can see we covered a lot. (someone else can add the more particular items) At the beginning it seemed like we were rushing through the stations, but luckily we did, as we barely had enough time to finish as it was! Many were exhausted by the time we did the final segment along the Jamaica El.
The extended tour continued back towards Manhattan, we lost some more at Broadway Junction and Halsey Street. I left at Myrtle-Broadway to get back to my car parked along the M line. Someone else will have to continue with what happened after Myrtle-Broadway.
---Choo Choo
The J seemed to be in a rush all day, as there were numerous "express on the local" runs, strange headways - sometimes one J right after another, and other times we had a chance to get out of the system, explore, get back on the station, and sometimes a J didn't even go by in that time.
I would have gone, but 9AM is an ungodly hour.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Well the "official tour" was over some time around 4:00 (121st Street/Jamaica).
As for stations along the way, it may be difficult to post times in advance, as during the course of the tour due to mutual agreement, our plans changed a few times - we skipped Wyckoff and went right to Metro, and visited Wyckoff on the way back, we changed our lunch break to Wyckoff instead of Rockaway Parkway, we skipped Chauncey due to the J we were on skipping the station, we took a detour to the old Canarsie ROW, etc, etc. Also time lapses in service also could effect estimated time.
The best that could be done is give the approximate order the tour will take, but even that could change, which it did. Cell phones may be the best option.
Ironically, I never came anywhere NEAR making 50 posts in a day before the posting limit was implemented (except for December 30), and now I crossed it twice.
Hey, don't you decide NOW that you would have gone on the trip if you could have met us at a later time. You should have thought of that before hand, or at least expressed interest in going on the trip, but mentioned that you didn't want to get up that early. The cellphone option would have been obvious and many of us would have thought of it. Cellphones are not post-facto. They have been around in some form or another since the 1980's, and people have been using them to find the locations of other people since then.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
I didn't get home until about 9. I'm quite glad it began as early as it did or I would have missed the West End express.
I started by taking the Q from Newkirk and yes the ride through Sea-Beach Fred's hangout (the Montague Rat-nel) was not so bad, except a deaf person was so loud and asked for money on the train. I quickly went to the last car hoping that nothing would happen, good thing I got to 34th/B'way OK.
At the metting location, I thanked Peggy for the Metrocard holder after correctly answering the first question, we left there and walked back to 34th/B'way to wait for any S/B train to 14th st/Union Square. We rode the Q express to 14th st and switched over to an R142 #5 train to BB/CH. We took a look at the original 1904 mosaics and compared it to the copycats along the passageway to the J platform. (Somehow we ignored the original 1904 plaque at the elevator leading to street level from the 24/7 booth, it was the formal opening of the IRT). The J was waiting for us as we observed an error in the artwork for the Brooklyn Bridge at the abandoned end platform of Chambers.
We rode the J, stopping at Canal, took a quick swing at that station. There were a few people at the now semi-closed Bridge platform at Canal, I did my best to yell out loud that they were standing at the wrong platform. We glanced at the HUGE artwork, titled "Empress Voyage" at the wall leading from west end of the Bridge platform to the passageway leading to the Broadway exit and the N/R plats. Next stop was Bowery (I congradulated the S/A for the most people she has seen in the past week at that lonely station.) and Peggy showed us a closed staircase at the east end that might be used for a possible transfer to the "When Will It Ever Get Built?" subway line on the east side of Manhattan.
Then trouble started brewing at Essex Street, our next stopover. This b#$!@h of a so-called supervisor tried to chase us out becuase we were legally taking pictures of subway property. The J quickly came in, because if she motioned to me (I had no camera) I would've asked for her badge number and wrote one on my classic angry letters to NYCT. She was VERY LUCKY I didn't, there was no police officer stationed at the east end of that station either.
Marcy was next, it was last day of the old entrance, today through September all Queens-bound trains will now skip that station at all times. Myrtle was next, we saw the remains of the old Myrtle Ave el. then hopped on an weekend-only R143 M and we were planning Wyckoff as the next stop. The T/O on board was very nice to allow two kids who were with us to ride the cab for a brief time, so we went all the way to Metropolitan and seeing DaRidgewood Bus Buff's hangout (Fresh Pond depot) on our way to the Met and the R42 J trains laid up at Fresh Pond train yard. At Metro, we saw the J train prepping for lay up at the adjacent yard. We laughed at NYCT's inability to spell Metropoltian (Metropltan was on the LCD display panel) and Fresh Pond (Fresh Pnd) on the first R143 train we were on, thanks to David Greenberger for point that quirk out.
After going back to Wyckoff and toured that complex, we all decided to eat in the area rather than waiting will we get our scheduled lunch stop at Rockaway Parkway. I downed 8 White Castles a block away then we hopped back on the M to Myrtle. I goofed (one of my first) by looking out as to why it the C/R was taking so long with the doors, then got stuck on the Manhattan bound platform at Myrtle. It was so funny, then I made some people thnik that I hopped on the Manhattan bound J and left the bunch (of course I didn't). I went down and around and joined the gang back for some more adventures.
Part 2 (and the car listings) will be heading your way later on today.
Nope...I think you are confusing the parody of Star Wars "Jabba the Hut" in the movie "Spaceballs." -Nick
WHAT? They allow them on the IRT now?
I don't know why they usually close up and reopen on the other side, but apparently they don't have to.
Being that it's close to a BRIDGE... she may have had orders to bark at ye.
(whereas she otherwise might not have done so)..
---Choo Choo
Try 800 instead of 400. A 36-exposure roll goes for $2.69 at Adorama and B&H.
--Mark
---Choo Choo
She still would NOT have had to right to yell at us and tell us it was illegal.
Q R68 2774 34th st/Hearld Square (going to the tour)
Q R68 2773 14th st/US (start of tour), same train I was on
5 R143 7010 Brooklyn Bridge/CH
J R42 4572 Canal
J R42 4694 Bowery
J R42 4755 Essex
J R40M 4537 Marcy
J R42 4722 Myrtle-B'way
M R143 8165 Metropolitan (I spelled it correct)
M R143 8165 Wyckoff
LUNCH
M R143 8150 Myrtle
J R40M 4536 Eastern Parkway (battery run)
Walk to Bushwick-Aberdeen
L R143 8142 Wilson (Group photo)
L R143 8301 Atlantic
L R143 8217 Rockaway Parkway
L R143 8232 Atlantic
L R143 8114 B. Junction
J R42 4727 Alabama
J R40M 4548 Cleveland
J R42 4937 Crescent
J R42 4800 121st st (End of official tour)
J R42 4736 (I left the group at Eastern Parkway, they were heading toward Flushing Ave)
A R44 5209 Jay st
Walk over to Lawrence St
Q R68 ???? Newkirk Ave (was too tired to get car number)
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
wayne
I'd guess that, coincidentally, they are planning track work in that area.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
In short, it has every appearance of being a subway, and I suspect 95% of riders don't even know that it's technically considered a railroad.
SOMEDAY we'll have SSTOs and 45 minute flights between continents.
It's odd, we had the political will, the apparant need, and so on 40 years ago, one could even argue that we had the knowhow, if not the materials at hand to do it. Today we have the materials, the knowhow, and possibly the need, but we lack any and all political will to do anything of the type. Too bad
Perhaps in 20 years exo-atmospheric supersonic transports (which were predicted to be here today 20 years ago), will provide 300pax flights over the oceans in 45 minutes, but thats a loooooong way off. Until then it just doesn't make much sense to send 100 people at 2000mph when 400 people can move at 500mph with less cost, and greater profits.
Boeing has the Sonic Cruiser it's developing, but it will only reach about .95 Mach.
Eventually it'll be cost efficent to fly at supersonic speeds, but it won't happen for at least the next 15-20 years.
There aren't enough of them flying to make any difference. There were studies some decades ago which attempted to preduct what would happen if aircraft like the Concorde became standard equipm,ent around the world. The effect on the atmosphere has nothing to do with supersonic speed. It has to do with engine exhaust from the now decades-old Rolls-Royce Olympus turbofan engines.
Were a supersonic passenger jet to fly today, its engine technology would have to be evaluated anew for environmental effects.
Turbofans were around when the Concorde was built (witness the 747, a contemporary, using GE CF6s, or P&W JT-9s), but the problem that those turbofans had was that they couldn't generate enough thrust in a super-cruise application to work on an SST. Super-cruise just means that the engine is developing enough thrust to hold the plane at greater than Mach 1 speeds without the use of the afterburner. Ordinarily military aircraft just use the afterburners to make quick Mach breaking dashes, using prodigous quantities of fuel and making them only good for such short dashes, obviously you don't want a supersonic airliner to cross the atlantic burning hundreds of gallons of kerosene a minute, so they needed engines that could supply afterburner-like nozzle velocities without the use of an afterburner, this required the use of a noisy fuel glupping turbojet. Only until recently, on the F-22 Raptor's P&W F119 did turbofans become super-cruise capable, I think there was a proposal to reengine the Concordes with F119s, but the air force pooh poohed it.
Certainly any new SST would incorperate a supercruise turbofans, which would still have an effect on the stratosphere (assuming it flew there, but it's hard to imagine it down around 30000 ft in all the weather), but would have far less an effect than the old turbojets on the concorde.
And if I confused anyone more than I helped, I'd recommend HowStuffWorks.com for explanations of both the Turbojet and Turbofan.
Did Steve K. add anything new to this topic ?
Bill "Newkirk"
*Note: Unsure who to give credit to for picture. Thurston sent it to me after someone sent it to him. Thurston, can you help us on who's pic it is?
BTW, The Sea Beach line will be turned into a 24/7 shuttle between 86 and 62 St with all service provided by this car:
You sure know how to make someone really happy (that's me) about your idea for the Slum-Beach line, while in the process make someone REALLY p****d off (must be Fred.)
Simple as that! One less slimey subway line to deal with.
Because it's the sorriest excuse for a subway line in New York.
Who made it that?
All of us, except Sea Beach Fred, and he's a Californian... which explains a whole lot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And what factors do you use to justify such a statement?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< Q >
I don't think it's a real one. It's just that IE will think it's one and not show it as a result, but neither will it actually do anything as it's not a real command.
For instance, if I type:
<BUGGER HTML>
I will get:
See?
Are you not counting the Myrtle Avenue El as a Subway? :-P
I don't know, Fred. That sounds pretty narrow minded for a worldly, mature, well rounded retired school teacher like yourself to say. But then again, you do love the Sea Beach Line!! ;-)
I agree! However, as a Brooklyn resident for 40 years prior to moving to suburban New Jersey 3 years ago, it is closer to perfect than New York City is, for my needs anyway. And if I get the itch to go railfanning or bus-fanning, I can hop a train or bus and be in Manhattan in about an hour.
Ordeal? You get to laugh at all the dumb things people have done...
I like the way the IND distilled the word down to its real pronunciation...
www.forgotten-ny.com
1. All cars built later than 1/1/1948 will suddenly vanish, to be instantly replaced by what was in service on that day.
2. Acela & Metroliner trains are replaced by DD-1's and K-4's. Manhattan Transfer comes back.
3. The fare is reduced to 5 cents with no explanation.
If you really believe Tunnel Rat Steve, he can lead the SubTalk jackhammer, bulldozer and track team to the hidden entrance and reconnect it to the system. Otherwise, Steve's been smoking too many funny cigarettes too long.
Just because it's on a panel board doesn't mean it's real. Massive public works projects like building a subway don't loose anything that was designed and built. Too many people worked on the project and governmental project generate reams of paperwork for any project, so somewhere, something exists that either conforms or denies that a station was exists at 76th street. You can't hide something like that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
LOL
For a street-level analogy: If Flatbush Avenue is under construction, and if the B41 uses Flatbush Avenue, then is the B41 under reconstruction? Of course not.
Not quite. There are trains providing service on the M route, which uses the Myrtle Avenue Line. A "line" is a right-of-way (roughly the subway equivalent of a street); a subway route uses lines the same way bus routes use streets.
Except that everyone knows what the M Line or the 4-5-6 Line or the B-D-F-V Line is. Furthermore such phrases are by no means touristisms like "Brown Line", "Green Line" and "Orange Line".
Exactly. Everyone knows what I meant.
Geesh! There are more posts about how I phrased the subject line than about the actual subject matter itself!
Back to the topic, its about time that they do something with the M train, its in a desparate need for some TLC and brightening up; especially Wyckoff Av.
Heh. Well my brother, this here am the realm of the text. Text is "our" medium....we must adduce the content via adherence to structural constraints. Else, you're delving into chaos. Interesting, perhaps, but data content? Call it, uh, null mode.
Or, say hello to Mr. A Square from Flatland. X and Y, so squeeze it in there man, squeeze it in.
In the Our Neighborhood section of the Times Newsweekly (Ridgewood Times) has two photos of the Myrtle line under construction. One site shows the future site near Seneca Station under cunstruction, with the then current surface tracks still there, and another photo shows the location before the construction of the el - the same buildings we still pass today before reaching the Seneca Station.
Get your clicks now, as they change the link each week.
REFUNDS
One-Way and Round-Trip Tickets
Up to four valid (i.e., within three months of purchase) unused tickets purchased with cash or debit card can be redeemed for cash at a ticket office. More than four unused tickets or tickets purchased by check or credit card, and any partially used tickets can only be refunded by check through the mail.
Monthly and Weekly Tickets
These tickets are sold at a significant discount. Refunds are based on the difference between the price paid and the sum of the least expensive alternative fares for the days the ticket was held (including the day it is turned in) during its valid period. Monthly tickets, for example, are broken down into a series of weekly and daily fares (peak fares for weekdays, off-peak for weekends and holidays).
Monthly and Weekly tickets turned in for refund by 9:30 a.m. at your home station ticket office will not be charged for the turn-in day.
MetroCard portions of combined monthly MetroCard and train tickets are refunded subject to a $10 processing fee, forfeit of discount, and prorating.
Ten-Trip Tickets
Ten-Trip tickets must be refunded through the mail. No refunds will be offered after one year from date of sale.
All tickets submitted for refund to the LIRR Refund Department (P.O. Box 350383, Jamaica, NY 11435) will be calculated using the postmark as the turn-in date.
Sorry about the unlink...
http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
Historically, the LIRR and MN have always honored tickets purchased prior to a fare hike after the hike at no additional charge. This is no different this time.
I asked him, do I wouldn't have to pay a step up fare to make up for the fare increase difference. He said no. So I bought another ten trip, from a TVM at Hicksville.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are there instances where the blowers stop running or is there such thing as blowers that run very quietly? (You could hear a pin drop in the car with no one talking while the train was stopped with its doors open) Furthermore, it seemed that only the lights were on in this car and not the motors or the HVAC. I'm only saying that it sounded like this. I am not denying a fact.
Unfortunately, I didn't catch the car #.
The HVAC system on New York City subway cars (except the soon-to-be-retired single-unit R-33s) is designed to run year-round, with the blowers operating continuously at all times while the car is in service and being supplemented if and as necessary by the air conditioning compressor/condenser(s) or overhead heating units. If the blowers are off, either the circuit breaker(s) has/have been tripped (an equipment problem), they have been turned off in the individual car (a personnel problem), or the HVAC trainline has been turned off, shutting off the HVAC on the entire train (another personnel problem).
David
David
--AcelaExpress2005 - R44 #5465
You think the R44 is the mother of all subway trains?
Peace,
ANDEE
Think about it this way instead: Why do you want people responding to your post correcting it? Wouldn't you be happy with a complete correct post?
I usually only post when I have something to add. If it wasn't for the 50 post limit and the fact that I already post a ridiculously large amount at the current time, I'd respond to every one of your posts with nothing more than an acknowledgement.
Which one are you?
I am in favor of the Brooklyn swap and against the Bronx swap.
Swaps from one service pattern to another aren't worth worrying about, since it only takes a few days for a regular rider to get used to a new service patterns. (This is especially the case if the old service pattern hasn't been in place for two or three years.) If they can be avoided without any trouble, so much the better.
It turns out that, in this case, by eliminating the troublesome sort of swap, the less troublesome sort is mostly avoided as well. How convenient!
A: 207 St-Far Rock via 8th Ave/CPW Express and Fulton Exp. Some AM rush trains also from Rock Park, some PM rush trains to Rock Park. Late nights A all stops between 207 and Far Rock. (Unlike '86 no trains to Lefferts Blvd and no JFK Express Trains)
B: 168 St-Coney Island via CPW Local and 6th Ave and West End Express. B express Pacific-36th in Brooklyn, skips DeKalb. All times except nights, when it would be a shuttle between Pacific and CI. (In '86 B only went to 168 during rush and was a late night shuttle between 36 and CI)
C: 145-Lefferts Blvd via 8th Ave/CPW Exp and Fulton Express. Rush hours, C extended to Bedford Pk Blvd as a Concourse Local. Late nights, C a shuttle between Lefferts and Euclid. (Route somewhat similar to '86 route except C was local in Manhtn and Bklyn)
D: 205 St-Coney Island via 6th Ave/CPW Express and Brighton Local. Rush hours D express in the Bronx. (In '86, D was an express in Bklyn weekdays and a local weekends)
K: 168 St-Euclid Ave via 8th Ave/CPW Local and Fulton Local. All times except nights. (Basically extension of '86 local route to Brooklyn)
M: Metro-Chambers via Nassau/Myrtle Local. Rush hours M extended to CI via Brighton Local. (In '86, M operated both wkday rush and non-rush on the Brighton)
N: Ditmars Blvd-CI via Broadway and Sea Beach Express. Exp Pacific-59th Bklyn, skips DeKalb. Late nights N local between 57 St (Manhtn) to 59 St (Bklyn) via Montague Tunnel.
Q: 57 St-Brighton Beach via Broadway and Brighton Express. Operates 6:30 AM-9:30 PM. (In '86 Q operated rush hours and as a local on the Brighton).
W: Ditmars Blvd-9th Ave via Broadway and 4th Ave Local. Rush hour extended to Bay Pkwy via West End Local. (No W in '86). Wkdays 6:30-9:30 PM.
I think this would be a PRAGMATIC solution, more reflective of customer patterns and less reflective of MTA trying to cut corners...
1. Overserving of 8th avenue: The A/C/K thing is just ridiculous. Either you're going to have TOO many trains on the express track (with both A/C at present Headways, you'd have a serious headache) or you'd have a serious service problem on the "A" north of 145th (if your new "C" service used "A" trains presently going to Lefferts). Leave the C on the local, and keep the A train exactly as it is.
2. Comparing to '86 plan: The 86 plan sucked a lot. I stated this in another post: Trains that ran local in manhattan at truly random times, trains with the same designation running on both local and express tracks, the Brighton local getting truly poor service, and off hours service being much worse then compared to now. Drop the comparison to 86, because it sucked.
3. Obsession with a brighton/broadway express train: Let's get facts straight: weekdays are the only time Brighton exp will run. 6th av more popular on weekdays. Hence, brighton exp should be a 6th av train.
I think this would be a PRAGMATIC solution, more reflective of customer patterns and less reflective of MTA trying to cut corners...
Let's think about what you've said:
Brighton riders MUST have their 24/7 6th av service, so that they don't have to transfer to get to Yankee Stadium. But they shouldn't have 6th av exp service, so they can ride the Q and transfer up and down stairs at 34th? Hmmmm. Sounds Sentamentalist to me....
The '86 plan routing-wise was not that bad (though it could have been better). It was the breakdown-prone condition of the trains that caused the shortages. If we had trains in that poor condition today, we'd have the same problems. I remember seeing train after train self-destruct in some fashion. This plan improves on the '86 version. We have two local services on the B'way (R and W) and 6th Av (F, V). There would be two 4th Ave Local services in Bklyn up to 36th (R and W). Concourse riders would now have two different realistic Manhattan express options during rush (C, 8th Ave or D, 6th Ave). Riders heading to JFK and the Rockaways would know to use the A while Lefferts would use the C.
Obsession with B'way/Brighton Exp: I thought we agreed to disagree on that one. Again, I'd say that this would spread loading on the Brighton and offer everyone access to 6th Ave service, you think that forcing those on local stations to transfer to 6th Ave is okay despite the fact that its the more popular weekday train.
Brighton Riders MUST have 24/7 service to Yankee Service. If West End ridership was truly higher than Brighton service, I can honestly say I would not argue this. However, this isn't even CLOSE to the case. If the majority of Yankee fans on the old BMT Southern Division use the Brighton, wouldn't it logically follow to keep the D there.
Sentimentalist Planning?!?: These plans I feel are more reflective of RIDERSHIP patterns. Er...by the way your latest analogy about political influence is flawed. As far as I know, the Fulton Line was originally DESIGNED to run up 8th Ave. The Brighton D ran to Yankee Stadium, with decent ridership, since the 60's (except for MB reroutes). Why change the routing now??? Why make the majority of BMT South Division riders wait up to 20 minutes when they don't HAVE to.
The A runs at the 3.5 min headways for only a portion of the AM rush, and 4 min headways for a slightly longer period in the PM rush. The point is, there's no reason to make both C and A trains express.Keep the current designation in place.
The '86 plan routing-wise was not that bad (though it could have been better).
It was horrible. I've already made a post on the subject, detailing just why the plan was so bad. You can't even compare that crap to service plans when one side was open recently.
Again, I'd say that this would spread loading on the Brighton and offer everyone access to 6th Ave service, you think that forcing those on local stations to transfer to 6th Ave is okay despite the fact that its the more popular weekday train.
If the Brighton express is the more popular train in brookyln, and the 6th av more popular in manhattan, then it makes sense to put the 6th av train on the express track. Using the type of logic that you're coming up with, it would make the most sense to make a Nassau st train the Express. This way, you could lure riders off of crowded Broadway and 6th av trains, it goes to downtown, and it has a transfer at Canal where riders would be able to transfer to 4 broadway services (exactly what you said about 34th before). If they did want 6th av, they could make the transfer at Essex, and IF the V does get extended, then they'll have better service at the transfer than they would get in brooklyn.
Brighton Riders MUST have 24/7 service to Yankee Service.
Yankees play 81 home games. How many of these will end when there wouldn't be 6th av service (late nights and weekends). Brighton riders dont NEED service to Yankee stadium, and a cross platform transfer accomplishes the same thing with minimal inconvenience. Your plan denies Brighton riders to attractive weekend destinations in manhattan (Times Sq, most notably). Are you saying that the # of people who go to Yankee stadium for those few weekend games far outnumber those traveling to Times Sq. EVERY weekend?
These plans I feel are more reflective of RIDERSHIP patterns. Er...by the way your latest analogy about political influence is flawed. As far as I know, the Fulton Line was originally DESIGNED to run up 8th Ave. The Brighton D ran to Yankee Stadium, with decent ridership, since the 60's (except for MB reroutes).
This is annoying. Every single one of my analogies is flawed for some Reason that's really absurd, and is really only because it disagrees with your idea. Lemme address your claim:
You say that the Fulton line was DESIGNED to run up 8th av. Ever looked at the W4th st alignment? Routing for lcl. trains would be MORE streamlined if locals from Spring st ran to 6th av and locals from B'way Laff. went up 8th av. W4th was given flexibility in determining routing. ORIGINAL DESIGN.
If I recall correctly, the 6th avenue line was DESIGNED with NO LINK to the Brighton line. In fact, the Culver routing was it's first DESIGNED link into Brooklyn. Matter of fact, Culver riders LOST their DIRECT LINK TO YANKEE STADIUM when Chrystie opened. NOT THE ORIGINAL DESIGN.
The whole point of my analogy was to show the absurdity that this is a political thing. But of course, it doesn't count, because it doesn't agree with your points, as is the usual case.
Why change the routing now??? Why make the majority of BMT South Division riders wait up to 20 minutes when they don't HAVE to.
Because it is for the greater good. The MAJORITY of BMT south division riders are not headed to the South Bronx.
"The whole point of my analogy was to show the absurdity that this is a political thing. But of course, it doesn't count, because it doesn't agree with your points, as is the usual case."
Were the above really essential to support your argument?
Were the above really essential to support your argument?
Yes they were. Every single one of my analogies used in the past has been rejected because of some irrelevant fact that had little to do with my argument, but MAGICALLY made my whole argument invalid, as is the case AGAIN.
Why did you feel the need to point this out? Was your post essential to ANYTHING AT ALL?
By the way, the whole point of the argument I'm making is that this proposal is NOT reflective of ridership patterns. We're not gonna agree on this. If I lived on the West End, I'll probably still be making this argument, though perhaps not as heatedly. At the very least its the MTA trying to cut corners. I'm still not totally discounting the political pull of West End riders. If people want to call me insane, outlandish, or are just mad at me for even suggesting this, forgive me...
By the way, the whole point of the argument I'm making is that this proposal is NOT reflective of ridership patterns. We're not gonna agree on this. If I lived on the West End, I'll probably still be making this argument, though perhaps not as heatedly. At the very least its the MTA trying to cut corners. I'm still not totally discounting the political pull of West End riders. If people want to call me insane, outlandish, or are just mad at me for even suggesting this, forgive me...
Yeah you're right, I've been spending more time than normal on SubTalk. I should put more energy sending plans out to politicians, rather than debate on SubTalk. Heck, I should spend more time on studying more than anything else...I'm procrastinating. You (and half the world) already know how I feel about running the D on the West End. If theres not gonna be an agreement, there's no use for me to debate it any further.
If worse comes to worse, I'll plan to take up arms and march to the MTA. (I'm kidding of course).
Where do you get this? You decry the surveys, but you show no evidence to prove that they are wrong, then you make your own conclusions without backing them up.
No. The main argument is that the M sucks. On the West End, it's offending no one as the main West End service makes all of those stops too. If you put the M on the Brighton, since it is fed by only two tracks, the other services will have to be reduced. Brighton can only support two full services. The M has too many trains to be wedged in as a third.
And no, you CANNOT say the 1967-86 plan had three trains as the QB ran very few trains and could be seen as akin to the E to 179th Street today.
The only reason the M got more ridership on the Brighton than on the West End is because Brighton local riders were effectively FORCED to take the M to the next express stop and transfer to the D. It was the Brighton's equivalent to the pre-12/16/01 G on Queens Blvd. On West End, the passengers can wait for the W (or whatever train runs to Midtown) to show up.
I do wonder why send the M to South Brooklyn at all. I've had a few occasions to watch N, M, and R trains going through the Montague between 5 and 5:30 PM. My guesstimate is that the average N or R had 600 passengers (and there are 15 of them per hour), while the average M had 350 (and there are 6 per hour).
In 2004, why not just merge the M with the V, sending it up 6th Ave, and extend the W to Brooklyn? The only real reason I can see is that maybe the rumors about sending the V to Brooklyn are true.
Between 8 and 9am, NB, the M carried 3140 passengers on 7 trains, for an average of 449 passengers per train or 56 passengers per car; the N carried 4163 passengers on 7 trains, for an average of 595 passengers per train or 59 passengers per (60-foot-equivalent) car; and the R carried 4797 passengers on 7 trains, for an average of 685 passengers per train or 69 passengers per car.
Between 5 and 6pm, SB, the M carried 2176 passengers on 7 trains, for an average of 311 passengers per train or 39 passengers per car; the N carried 5851 passengers on 6 trains, for an average of 975 passengers per train or 98 passengers per car; and the R carried 2840 passengers on 5 trains, for an average of 528 passengers per train or 53 passengers per car.
So the M was less crowded than the N/R, but not by the margins you've seen. Of course, these counts were taken almost seven years ago.
IMO, the justification for running the M through Montague is not so much to accomodate crowds as it is to provide a useful, if not very popular, connection that would otherwise be lost. That's why I'd like to see off-peak service as well, even if the trains are mostly empty -- for the few who find it useful, the alternatives may be less useful. I can't blame NYCT for spending its money elsewhere, though.
"In 2004, why not just merge the M with the V, sending it up 6th Ave, and extend the W to Brooklyn?"
I'm not sure there's enough rolling stock to do that.
It also goes to the question of why the WillyB connection to the 6th Avenue Line has had so little use. You would think some J/M/Z customers would prefer a direct connection to midtown.
I'm not sure there's enough rolling stock to do that.
Same or less rolling stock needed to send the M to Bway Lafayette and use V stock for the rest of its trip than to send the M to Broad St.
However, I think that many of the alternatives discussed here probably WERE considered internally at MTA HQ before they finally settled on the version we now know.
There will be public hearings where objections can be raised and alternatives offered. Public input does sometimes alter the outcome. But many of the alternatives I've seen have operational problems that the proposers do not recognize, or are more costly to implement. Many others are either sentimental, or amount to shifting the service changes elsewhere without any overall benefit.
There is always the possibility of keeping the D on the Brighton and the B on the West End and making the B yellow (i.e., a Broadway train) on weekends. Clearly the MTA found their draft plan less confusing, and I don't blame them.
I like giving the Lefferts Blvd train its own letter, which is more satisfactory than the present system.
The main problem is that, to avoid the B/D swap in Brooklyn, you've made the off-hours B a shuttle to Pacific St. In the MTA's plan, the West End Line has a 24/7 one-seat ride to Manhattan and the Bronx. Maybe that's ok, but maybe West End riders wouldn't be happy. It goes to show that every alternative that attempts to "solve" what's wrong with the MTA plan introduces another problem elsewhere.
Also, you're running a lot of CPW service on weekends, which is more than probably justified.
It would be fine if he just changed the designation of the A to lefferts, but he's also routing these trains differently, and running them at headways far too often for midday service.
Technically at one point not too long ago CPW had 5 weekend services (the two A's, the B, which ran to 168 when the MTA was testing the new 63rd St connector, the C and the D). While my new weekend headways may be slightly more than it was on the old A route. It wouldn't be that different.
Why? It's just one more stop - am I missing something?
The D originally ran in Brooklyn on the Culver with Church Avenue its South Term.
The B, or #3 West End has more or less continually run the same route for at least 30 years.
The B/D swap will be something akin to when the F was put on the Culver and the D went over to the Brighton.
Call me a sentimentalist, because I don't think the current B to West End/D to Brighton plan is broke and it don't need fixin'!
No. The D ran to Hudson Terminal rush hours or 34th Street other times until the 1954 connection to the Culver. There was no Brooklyn D service until that time.
Call me a sentimentalist, because I don't think the current B to West End/D to Brighton plan is broke and it don't need fixin'!
The only thing that is "broke" and needs "fixin'" is that unintelligent, incorrect proverb.
There is no current plan. There has been no regular service over both sides of the MB since 1986. And the 1986 service pattern can't be done because you can't terminate trains at 57th/6th any more.
As far as most people on the southern rim are concerned, "normal" service is the B and D on the north side of the bridge and nothing on the south side. For them, having both sides open will be the equivalent of an entirely new service, something that hasn't happened since the Culver started running through on the IND in the 1950s.
Now ... how's about we swap the SeaBits and the D train and Unca Fred will have a canary? Heh.
Photos of trains entering tunnels!
Watch a T/O discharge his passengers right on the platform!
Lasciviousness.
Licentiousness.
Prurience.
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Mark
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
The IRT Flushing Line was sometimes refered to as "the Queensboro Line."
The IRT Station at Queens Plaza is the oldest one and has always been called "QUEENSBORO PLAZA." The newer IND Station is called "QUEENS PLAZA."
Any information would be appreciated.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I believe the planned Queensboro IRT line was the first thing to use the name. No doubt it was because it was to be the first subway line to serve The Borough of Queens, not counting the elevated Myrtle El. The Queensboro Bridge was built partly to facilitate this line, as it carried the branch of the 2nd Ave El that connected to the Queensboro lines' Astoria and Corona branches. As for Queensboro Plaza, that's easy. It's so named for the Queensboro Bridge.
No doubt the IND station was simply called "Queens Plaza" to avoid confusion. Nowadays, however, that is the name that seems to be most popular when refering to the neighborhood.
:-) Andrew
Isn't it called "Queensbridge"?
Anyone care to dispute that?
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Wait a minute. Someone is getting sloppy with terms. In the late ‘40s the 59th Street Bridge (I lived in the City) was known as the "Queensborough" Bridge (somewhat analogous to the Triborough Bridge), and was so designated on the 1948 subway map. The area at the Queens end of the bridge was known as the Queensborough Bridge Plaza, often shortened to Queensborough Plaza. Only the big eight track IRT/BMT station carried the shortened "Queensboro" name.
I often wondered about the station spelling. I believe earlier, when the station was built, the shortened Queensboro name was a variant of "Queens borough" was applied to the bridge also.
Tom
The Flushing line was probably dubbed the Queensboro line because it was the first to extend into the Borough. The naming discrepancy between the IRT/BMT and IND stations, wild guess, is a result of a change in the name of the Plaza itself between 1916 and 1933.
On a similar note, was "Queensbridge" ever in common use before the Houses were built?
BTW--at one point Queens Plaza North and South were called North Jane Street and South Jane Street.
Queens Plaza was the name given for the below-ground IND station in 1933, and in fact has two streets in the area as Bridge Plaza North and South (the outer roadways leading to the now-we-call-it the 59th st Bridge). So, instead of naming the station Bridge Plaza, they used Queens Plaza instead.
There are R68's in CI Yd.
One thought, though-if the W, an extra line, is running out of CI (may be 37th instead), then the B will most likely have no choice but to run out of Concourse. Currently there are four lines out of CI (Six if you count the F and M) and adding the B while keeping the W will make it five (seven)-don't know if CI can sustain that many lines.
My guess:
B: R-68, errant R-40
D: R-68
(F: R-46, errant R-32)
(M: R-40M/R-42, errant R-40)
N: R-40
Q: R-68A
W: R-40/M
...at the very least, it needs a bunch for late night OPTO.
They have OPTO on the N?
No, the 36th (or 38th) st yard does not house trains regularly (maybe a few B/W sets overnight, but not more than 2 or 3). It is purely a maintenance yard.
Now, it's pretty certain that the D will be R68 from Concourse yard, because the D is the only line operating from concourse when the B can reach CI yard. Plus, the MTA seems to like running R-40 slants on part-time routes, namely the Brighton exp. So, there's a good chance that the B will get slants. The R68A's have run on west end usually, but with Concourse R68's on that line, they'll probably need to be shifted elsewheres. Leading candidate is the Q, which will probably send a number of it's R68's to the N line. The N will in turn probably send some slants and modifieds to the part-time W. So, it may come out looking like this:
B-R40S/M (since modifieds routinely appear on the Q exp now)
D-R68
N-R68/32/40/42
Q-R68a
W-R32/40/42
Maybe the N/Q will swap things. But I'm inclined to think that the N will continue to be the line with the mix of cars, and will donate a few to the W.
This is ALL speculation.
I don't see why the Q wouldn't keep its current R-68's -- it's the one route involved that isn't changing at all. That leaves the R-68A's for the N and/or W.
Otherwise, your speculation sounds reasonable to me.
If NYCT adopts my proposal and makes the B the full-time route (and sends it back to the West End), then it would use R-68's from Concourse and the D would probably get R-40's. That's right: slants on the Concourse express!
Here's something that's been bothering me about your plan. You have the express short turning during the midday, with the local extended. While you say it's not a big deal, it's the whole point of express service: people at outer local stops get to skip stops closer to the CBD's. Granted, it's only 3-5 minutes from 145th to 59th, but it's a benefit that the riders are getting. What does your plan offer them in exchange for these 3-5 minutes? Nothing at all. True, you might like the idea of making the local the 'standard routing', it benefits the riders more that when the express is running, it is the longer route.
Now if the express isn't running when the B is extended, then your plan makes perfect sense.
Another thing, your Fulton/8av Late night service proposal: It has a big flaw (for those of you who don't know, it means making the C the late-night extended local.) What happens when the A stops running and the C is extended? At rockaway Blvd, nothing happens, because the next C is right behind it in place. But what about at Far Rockaway? There are no C trains out there. So, either you have to:
1. store C trains out there, which isn't possible, so you'd have to make deadhead runs, operationally difficult,
2. make the A trains switch their designations to C, and if you're doing that, why not just keep it as an A train, since you shouldn't have late night fleet swaps EVERY NIGHT, or
3. you can make the A trains at Far Rockaway keep running when the C is extended. Of course, if you have Late Night service strating at 12:00am on the dot (not really what happens, but bear with me), the A train at Far Rockaway will be the only one there (no C trains yet). So, the train will have to run basically the whole line to cover for the lack of C trains behind it. Thus, A trains wouldn't stop until well after late night service begins. And you'd have A similar predicament in the morning.
In the end, it doesn't make a difference which line is marked the late night local. Since its easier to keep it as an "A" train, why not do that....
The D would never short-turn. When the D runs, it would run to 205th, and the B would terminate at Bedford Park. When the D doesn't run, the B would go through.
(And it's not 3-5 minutes -- it's 3 minutes. Time it yourself. Incidentally, I rode a rush hour D from Bedford Park to 34th this morning. It was moderately crowded, but the D CPW local I rode a week and a half ago on Sunday was more crowded than this rush hour train was.)
As for the C vs. A, I don't care if the night C trains are the trains that ran on the A or on the C during the prior day. (With R-44's, changing the signs is the trivial task of rolling two manual signs and entering a new route code. I admit it's a greater challenge on R-32's and R-38's -- but, then again, R-32's and R-38's switch back and forth between the A's two south terminals already, and the signage is usually accurate.) The issue is simply one of allowing passengers to identify whether a train is a local or an express. The express-to-local transition takes a few hours as it is, which only adds to the confusion. If you saw a SB A train at 168th at 10:16pm on a weeknight, would you expect it to go local or express? It's a local, but there's no way for a passenger waiting for a C to know to take the A instead.
I would actually adjust the south terminals -- at all times. The C would run full-time to Lefferts, perhaps with a few rush hour A specials to placate the masses. The A, which wouldn't run at night, would alternate between the two Rockaway terminals. Late night Rockaway service would be handled by shuttles from Euclid -- either two shuttle services from Euclid to the two Rockaway branches, or a single shuttle from Euclid to Far Rock and a second shuttle from Broad Channel to Rock Park (like the current Rock Park shuttle), or a single round-robin shuttle, whichever is best for the passengers and for NYCT.
Oh. I could have swore that you said you would turn midday D trains at 145th. My mistake. But I agree with you actually about the off hour D train service (weekends).
I'd like to also note something else about off-hour service. Whenever I ride midday CPW trains, A trains are more crowded than any of the other services, D included.
And it's not 3-5 minutes -- it's 3 minutes. Time it yourself. Incidentally, I rode a rush hour D from Bedford Park to 34th this morning. It was moderately crowded, but the D CPW local I rode a week and a half ago on Sunday was more crowded than this rush hour train was.
I have timed it myself. Northbound from 59th to 125th saved a little less than 3 & 1/2 minutes. Southbound from 145th to 59th saved 4 minutes.
About your observation: it's invalid what you observed on one train. I've rode a weekend A train from Jay St. to Chambers that was twice as crowded as a rush hour A train on the same stretch. Of course, this is merely an isolated example; that the rush hour A was a rare empty rush hour train.
As for the C vs. A, I don't care if the night C trains are the trains that ran on the A or on the C during the prior day. (With R-44's, changing the signs is the trivial task of rolling two manual signs and entering a new route code. I admit it's a greater challenge on R-32's and R-38's -- but, then again, R-32's and R-38's switch back and forth between the A's two south terminals already, and the signage is usually accurate.)
Why make fleet swaps when you don't have to?
The issue is simply one of allowing passengers to identify whether a train is a local or an express. The express-to-local transition takes a few hours as it is, which only adds to the confusion. If you saw a SB A train at 168th at 10:16pm on a weeknight, would you expect it to go local or express? It's a local, but there's no way for a passenger waiting for a C to know to take the A instead.
Your point is really invalid. For one, the A would be on the LOCAL track, so it would be pretty easy to identify. I should know: I've actually ridden the line this late at night. As for stops where they Share trakage, you MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT! One could easily make the reverse application of your analogy: What happens to a person waiting at 145th who wants to go to 181st? When the "C" pulls in do they know to take it instead of the "A" train? Nope. And, that would be a problem at every express station, whereas your problem would be only at the few stations where local C and Express A trains share trackage.
Your plan tries to make the local stops uniform. The MTA's plan makes the outer stops uniform. Since both of these plans are about equal, why not use the one that is operationally easier?
The C would run full-time to Lefferts, perhaps with a few rush hour A specials to placate the masses.
Lefferts gets ridership comparable to the Rockaway branch. Why should they get snubbed?
No, that's never what I suggested, although at least two others have. I agree that, when there is local and express service, the express shouldn't end further in from the local, unless there's no other practical choice (as on the Brighton and Eastern Parkway lines).
I'd like to also note something else about off-hour service. Whenever I ride midday CPW trains, A trains are more crowded than any of the other services, D included.
Yes, I've noticed the same. On weekends, where they overlap, A's are most crowded, followed by C's, followed by D's. (I wonder why. The D covers more territory to the north than the A, and to the south the D goes off on its own while the A and C overlap.)
I have timed it myself. Northbound from 59th to 125th saved a little less than 3 & 1/2 minutes. Southbound from 145th to 59th saved 4 minutes.
In that case, I apologize for insinuating that you haven't timed it. Still, why do you say 3-5 minutes when the schedule shows 3 minutes and your longest timing gave 4 minutes?
On my handful of timings, all of my readings were actually slightly below 3 minutes.
(Of course, there was one time that I boarded a NB C at 86th. By the time we got to 168th -- or was it 145th? -- the C had caught up not only with the next A in front but the one in front of that. In other words, a small sample size can yield strange results. Keep timing!)
About your observation: it's invalid what you observed on one train. I've rode a weekend A train from Jay St. to Chambers that was twice as crowded as a rush hour A train on the same stretch. Of course, this is merely an isolated example; that the rush hour A was a rare empty rush hour train.
I wish I could compare on a regular basis. Unfortunately, I can't, since the D doesn't normally run local on weekends. All I can do is make observations during GO's that send the D local. My observations have consistently been that the D is more crowded, sometimes much more crowded, when it runs local than when it runs express.
If NYCT were interested in determining whether weekend CPW service should ultimately have two expresses and one local or two locals and one express, perhaps some trials are in order. Designate four or five weekends when no other GO's are in effect on CPW, and run both the C and the D local. Post this clearly in stations and on trains so passengers can make informed decisions. Then see what happens. If the D is more crowded as an express, keep it as an express. If the D is more crowded as a local, turn it into a weekend local (and, perhaps, call it the B).
Why make fleet swaps when you don't have to?
Who's making fleet swaps? I'm changing a few signs to accurately identify the train.
Your point is really invalid. For one, the A would be on the LOCAL track, so it would be pretty easy to identify.
At 168th SB (my example)? Look at the track map. All trains coming from 207th come in against the wall. That's the express track; at night, trains switch south of the station to the local track.
Besides, haven't you heard of trains running express on the local? Or of average New Yorkers, and especially tourists, who may not understand that one track generally carries locals and the other generally carries expresses?
I live at a local station on the 1/9. I know very well that if I see a 2/3 on the local track, I can't safely assume that it will make my stop -- I've been burned more than once by that assumption. At least the 1/9 runs frequently, so backtracking is relatively painless.
As for stops where they Share trakage, you MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT!
If only that were sufficient.
It isn't if the PA system isn't working properly in your car. It isn't if you come running onto the platform greeted by a train with its doors open -- after the C/R has already made his announcements. It isn't if you're deaf. ADA requires both announcements and signage, and even without ADA it makes sense to have both.
One could easily make the reverse application of your analogy: What happens to a person waiting at 145th who wants to go to 181st? When the "C" pulls in do they know to take it instead of the "A" train? Nope.
Yep. In addition to announcements, there are signs. All rolling stock used on the A and C has signs identifying terminals. OTOH, R-32's and R-38's don't have signs identifying local vs. express, and while R-44's do, I see expresses signed as locals (and vice versa) often enough that I'm not willing to rely on those signs. (Granted, if all late night A's ran R-44's, and if all crews set their signs correctly, my concern would be less pressing.)
And, that would be a problem at every express station, whereas your problem would be only at the few stations where local C and Express A trains share trackage.
No, both problems would exist at every express station. My problem would exist among those bound for local stations; yours would exist among those bound for stations past the end of the (daytime) C. There are more of the former than the latter, the former generally have greater ridership than the latter, and, except for Howard Beach, the former are more often tourist destinations than the latter (and tourists especially can't be expected to memorize a subway schedule).
Your plan tries to make the local stops uniform. The MTA's plan makes the outer stops uniform. Since both of these plans are about equal, why not use the one that is operationally easier?
They're operationally equivalent. The question is which would make more passengers' lives easier. I haven't checked the numbers (I could, if you like), but my guess is that about twice as many passengers are bound for local stations than are bound for the far upper and lower portions of the line.
Lefferts gets ridership comparable to the Rockaway branch. Why should they get snubbed?
Typical knee-jerk reaction. How are they getting snubbed?
Midday A headways are 15 minutes on the Lefferts branch. Midday C headways are 10 minutes. Their average wait time will decrease by 50%, from 7.5 minutes to 5 minutes.
With proper scheduling, the A could be timed to reach Euclid one minute after the C. (I'm assuming that, with all A trains going to the Rockaways, 10-minute headways would resume.) Passengers from the Lefferts branch would have two options. They could ride the local all the way into Manhattan, losing 6 minutes on the ride but gaining 2.5 minutes in the wait, for a net loss of 3.5 minutes -- but train seats are more comfortable than elevated platforms, so to many it would be a worthwhile trade. Or they could get off at Euclid, wait a minute, and board an A express, maintaining their former ride time but saving 1.5 minutes of waiting. Everybody wins.
(Rush hours, when service is more frequent and wait time is less of an issue, there would be a handful of A specials to Lefferts.)
Of course, most Lefferts branch passengers are likely to have the same knee-jerk reaction that you did rather than thinking it out fully, so they'd probably shout down such a suggestion.
3-5 minutes for the A express above 145th st.
If NYCT were interested in determining whether weekend CPW service should ultimately have two expresses and one local or two locals and one express, perhaps some trials are in order. Designate four or five weekends when no other GO's are in effect on CPW, and run both the C and the D local. Post this clearly in stations and on trains so passengers can make informed decisions. Then see what happens. If the D is more crowded as an express, keep it as an express. If the D is more crowded as a local, turn it into a weekend local (and, perhaps, call it the B).
I actually think it would be more sensible to make weekend 6th av trains local on CPW. I agree with you, I only thought [mistakenly] that you had said to turn midday D's at 145th st.
At 168th SB (my example)? Look at the track map. All trains coming from 207th come in against the wall. That's the express track; at night, trains switch south of the station to the local track.
One station, in one direction. How many of these people are tourists? How many are going to wait for the local anyway? Most People would wait for the express anyways, even if they were going to 135th.
Besides, haven't you heard of trains running express on the local?
Yes, and while it seems to be prevalent on the west side IRT, It's never happened to me on the 8th av/Fulton IND. It is pretty rare on that line, and generally LOCALS run express on the local track. Whenever an A I've been on has been switched to the local track, it makes local stops. Sometimes, the C behind it will even run express.
Yep. In addition to announcements, there are signs. All rolling stock used on the A and C has signs identifying terminals. OTOH, R-32's and R-38's don't have signs identifying local vs. express, and while R-44's do, I see expresses signed as locals (and vice versa) often enough that I'm not willing to rely on those signs. (Granted, if all late night A's ran R-44's, and if all crews set their signs correctly, my concern would be less pressing.)
Signage really doesn't mean a whole lot to people at all. I've seen plenty of people look at a correctly signed train, and still get on the wrong train. However, people generally know that a train on the local track is going local. Plus, a lot more people ride the A than the C. Fulton/8av riders generally pack A trains even if they're headed to a local stop. More people would let a C train pass than an A.
No, both problems would exist at every express station. My problem would exist among those bound for local stations; yours would exist among those bound for stations past the end of the (daytime) C. There are more of the former than the latter, the former generally have greater ridership than the latter, and, except for Howard Beach, the former are more often tourist destinations than the latter (and tourists especially can't be expected to memorize a subway schedule).
Again, when A trains are on the local track, most people know that it's making all local stops. I've rode the A train numerous times at the point where C service stops, and there is no confusion that this A train is going to make all the stops, it's NOT on the express track! But if a C pulled in, and I thought that an A might still be running, It's quite possible that i'd still wait for the C train. I guess what I'm saying is that when the A train is running local, there's no possibility of you thinking: "Hey, this train is an express and a C train will pull in on the other track", because the A train is on the other track. However, a "C" train looks like it's not out of place; that it could still be running only to Euclid.
As far as tourists go, Most of the stops they would want to go to are express stops anyway, except for maybe 81st street, and that's not really a tourist destnation at the time the A begins running local. Tourists are hapless in the subway anyways. They can be on the right train, with clear announcements and let their train go right past them.
The final aspect is the fact that the present pattern is what's in place, and a change would be more confusing. And, it's in place like this because the weekend C used to run in manhattan only, so A trains made all the stops in Brooklyn anyways. Even if your plan did make the most sense, many people already know that A trains do run local.
Typical knee-jerk reaction. How are they getting snubbed?
I actually meant during rush hour, when their headways are still better than my closest train's headways. I'd like to see the "C" train go to Rockaway Pk myself, but it creates a problem: another merge. C trains run so infrequently that you'd think they'd be able to schedule them around the A train's schedule, so they wouldn't cause delays, but they can't do it. At Canal SB and Hoyt NB, it happens often enough.
But you were discussing how much longer a ride on the D would take.
One station, in one direction. How many of these people are tourists?
No, most express stations. 168 SB. 145 SB and NB. 125 NB. 59 NB. Canal, Chambers, B-N, High, Jay, Hoyt SB and NB. Utica SB and NB. BJ SB and NB. Euclid NB. In all of these stations, a train can come in on the local track and switch to the express while pulling out. Wouldn't it be nice if there were some dependable way of predicting if that might happen?
How many are going to wait for the local anyway? Most People would wait for the express anyways, even if they were going to 135th.
Do you really have such little faith in your fellow passengers? Only an idiot bound for 135th would pass up a local at 168th. If the next express shows up within a minute, he'll catch that same local at 145th. Otherwise he'll miss it. Given headways on the C, if you're going to a local stop served only by the C, and a C pulls in with no A across the platform, take the C! The next express might or might not catch up with that same C; it certainly won't catch up with the one in front of it. From top to bottom, the A only saves ten minutes over the C.
Yes, and while it seems to be prevalent on the west side IRT, It's never happened to me on the 8th av/Fulton IND. It is pretty rare on that line, and generally LOCALS run express on the local track. Whenever an A I've been on has been switched to the local track, it makes local stops. Sometimes, the C behind it will even run express.
We're talking about two different events. If an express is sent onto the local track, it's supposed to bypass local stations, barring explicit instructions to the contrary. This happens on every line.
Yes, it's likely that an A on the local track around the time the A starts running local (remember, I haven't memorized the precise schedule) -- but if it goes express, I end up a few miles past my destination and might have to wait 15 minutes or more for a C to take me back. That's a risk I'd rather not have to take. Sign each train clearly as an express (A) or a local (C) and I'll know to stay off the express.
Signage really doesn't mean a whole lot to people at all.
So why do you care if the train is signed as an A or as a C?
People who care which train they get look at the signs. Right now there are two indications of the terminal and none of the express/local status. I'd like there to be one of each.
Again, when A trains are on the local track, most people know that it's making all local stops. I've rode the A train numerous times at the point where C service stops, and there is no confusion that this A train is going to make all the stops, it's NOT on the express track! But if a C pulled in, and I thought that an A might still be running, It's quite possible that i'd still wait for the C train. I guess what I'm saying is that when the A train is running local, there's no possibility of you thinking: "Hey, this train is an express and a C train will pull in on the other track", because the A train is on the other track. However, a "C" train looks like it's not out of place; that it could still be running only to Euclid.
Have you ever been on the NB platform at 59th during any of the many GO's that reroute A trains to the local track south of 59th? Nobody knows if the train's going local or express. Most passengers don't know how to read homeballs. A local passenger who assumes it's a local (after all, it's on the local track!) might end up having to backtrack from 125th; a local passenger who assumes it's an express (after all, it's signed as an A!) might be waiting until Monday morning for C service to be restored.
Now let's say my policy were adopted, and any train running local all the way between Euclid and 168th, whether or not it continued past either station, was labeled C. Local passengers would look at the route sign and know that the train in question is a local. Inwood passengers would look at the destination sign and know that the train would take them to 207th (and that, most likely, there was no A express service at the time). Nobody would be left out.
As far as tourists go, Most of the stops they would want to go to are express stops anyway, except for maybe 81st street, and that's not really a tourist destnation at the time the A begins running local.
There are lots of small hotels near CPW. Tourists stay at hotels.
The final aspect is the fact that the present pattern is what's in place, and a change would be more confusing. And, it's in place like this because the weekend C used to run in manhattan only, so A trains made all the stops in Brooklyn anyways.
Exactly. And before that, the A and C diverged at 145th. It used to make sense. It doesn't anymore.
The confusion from the change would be temporary. The confusion without it is permanent. There are new late night riders every night.
Even if your plan did make the most sense, many people already know that A trains do run local.
Most people? On what planet? I don't think even most people on this board could tell you what time the first and last A locals are. I was surprised the first time I saw one; fortunately, I was boarding at a local stop rather than going towards one, or I would have let the train go ahead without me. (This was well before midnight.) And it came to light recently that the first NB A express of the morning often passes the last NB A local of the night. How's that for confusion -- two A's can meet in the same station at the same time! Wouldn't it be convenient for the passengers if one were labeled as a local and the other were labeled as an express?
I actually meant during rush hour, when their headways are still better than my closest train's headways.
The Lefferts A runs 6 tph max, and I already said that during rush hours I'd run some A specials. The rest of the day, C service at half the headways is the better option.
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Sorry, I'm a lil' slow. (no, not really)
No, most express stations. 168 SB. 145 SB and NB. 125 NB. 59 NB. Canal, Chambers, B-N, High, Jay, Hoyt SB and NB. Utica SB and NB. BJ SB and NB. Euclid NB. In all of these stations, a train can come in on the local track and switch to the express while pulling out. Wouldn't it be nice if there were some dependable way of predicting if that might happen?
You're making it sound as if it's common practice for trains to switch back and forth between local tracks at around the time when A trains become local. THEY DON'T! When an A comes in on the local track at Utica at 10:30pm, it's likely going to run local. I could see if A expresses were commonly shifted from local to express at said stations, but that's not going to happen. When an A comes in on the local track, it runs local. It doesn't just suddenly shift to express. This may happen during the rush at 59th or maybe if there's a G.O., but these are special cases. You can't take the rare special case and apply it to the entire service plan.
Do you really have such little faith in your fellow passengers?
You do! You think that they can't tell that an A train is running local, when it is. You're making it seem that as a matter of practice, express A trains will run on the local track. I've ridden the A this late at night many times, during various times, and everytime people know that when the A comes in on the local track, it is going local. It's a more reliable than the signs.
Only an idiot bound for 135th would pass up a local at 168th. If the next express shows up within a minute, he'll catch that same local at 145th. Otherwise he'll miss it. Given headways on the C, if you're going to a local stop served only by the C, and a C pulls in with no A across the platform, take the C! The next express might or might not catch up with that same C; it certainly won't catch up with the one in front of it. From top to bottom, the A only saves ten minutes over the C.
Yet the A train gets substantially higher ridership than the C. Even though it's only 10 minutes, It helps that the A comes so often. If you missed a C train, you can catch an A train and catch up to that C train, and even if it was 5-7 mins ahead of you (talking about Fulton here). And I can name a few occasions where an A express made the difference from me being late to being early, when I only rode it from Canal St to 42nd.
We're talking about two different events. If an express is sent onto the local track, it's supposed to bypass local stations, barring explicit instructions to the contrary. This happens on every line.
How many A expresses are rerouted to the local track? FEW. Especially at 10pm.
So why do you care if the train is signed as an A or as a C?
I've already named why it's operationally more sensible. And if there are trains regularly changing signs, you will get poorly signed trains. It's not going to make a huge difference to me, I know that a C is gonna stop at the 8 car marker, but it'll make a difference to the rider who doesn't know if this R38 is an A or a C during the rush hour. Even worse for the Airport people.
Now let's say my policy were adopted, and any train running local all the way between Euclid and 168th, whether or not it continued past either station, was labeled C. Local passengers would look at the route sign and know that the train in question is a local. Inwood passengers would look at the destination sign and know that the train would take them to 207th (and that, most likely, there was no A express service at the time). Nobody would be left out.
And if you look at the present plan, Signs are up all over the place saying that the "A" stops on the local tracks when the C doesn't run. Anyone who reads signs (as you suggest) would know that the A is going to make local stops. You're giving rare examples of how your plan is better when the A train runs GO's. But GO's are special circumstance. What about when a C pulls in on the 59th express track because of a GO? What does anybody do then? That C train must be the most confusing routing in the whole system.
Most people? On what planet? I don't think even most people on this board could tell you what time the first and last A locals are.
Again: 10:45pm, and an A comes in on the local track. It's obvious. The TA doesn't re-route expresses to the local track at 10:45pm.
And it came to light recently that the first NB A express of the morning often passes the last NB A local of the night. How's that for confusion -- two A's can meet in the same station at the same time! Wouldn't it be convenient for the passengers if one were labeled as a local and the other were labeled as an express?
If anything, that A train is the one most obviously running local. At what point do these trains meet? Above 145th?
The confusion from the change would be temporary. The confusion without it is permanent. There are new late night riders every night.
Again, most people are not confused by the fact that an A running on the local track is running local. OTOH, if a C pulls in, it could mean that the A is still running, even if the C train's signage says Lefferts Blvd. Even if someone actually took the time to read those destination signs, (which they usually don't), it could easily be a poorly marked train. Plenty of trains withe multiple destinations get bad markings. And we established that these trains would be former A trains, correct? It's possible that you'd have a train that says A all over it, but it's when C trains only are running. What would a passenger assume about this train? A trains never run local under that plan....
a local passenger who assumes it's an express (after all, it's signed as an A!) might be waiting until Monday morning for C service to be restored.
Exaggerating a bit, eh?
The Lefferts A runs 6 tph max, and I already said that during rush hours I'd run some A specials. The rest of the day, C service at half the headways is the better option.
That 6 tph is pretty good. Again though, the merge..... and you'd be adding 2 extra A/C merges. During middays and weekends though, it probably is the more sensible option.
Common? Who said it was common? It happens.
Taking a local because you mistakenly thought the express wasn't running comes at a cost of a few minutes, seated in comfort (or possibly standing in somewhat less comfort) on a climate controlled train.
Taking an express because you mistakenly thought it was a local comes at a cost of (a) being dragged possibly miles out of your way, (b) crossing over to the other platform (as one who suffered from a bad knee for over a year, I can tell you that this is a significant hardship for some passengers), (c) waiting for a local (which can take as much as 20 minutes), and (d) riding back to your intended destination.
A passenger bound for an express stop prefers an express. A passenger bound for a local stop needs a local. It's not good enough for him that a train is probably making local stops.
When an A comes in on the local track at Utica at 10:30pm, it's likely going to run local. I could see if A expresses were commonly shifted from local to express at said stations, but that's not going to happen. When an A comes in on the local track, it runs local. It doesn't just suddenly shift to express. This may happen during the rush at 59th or maybe if there's a G.O., but these are special cases. You can't take the rare special case and apply it to the entire service plan.
Why not? My late night plan would apply equally in the case of a GO that suspends all express service on the line. Right now, what remains is called the A, and local passengers don't know what's going on. By my proposal, it would be called the C. OTOH, if there is both local and express service, and an A shows up on the local track, local passengers would know to let it go unless they heard very clear announcements that it was running local.
(Even clear announcements can be misleading. One Sunday morning, I was waiting at 59th -- for a SB train, fortunately. As an A pulled in on the NB local track, a station announcement came on, claiming that all NB A trains were running local to 125th. Then the C/R on the train made his announcement: "A express to 207th. 125th next.")
You do! You think that they can't tell that an A train is running local, when it is. You're making it seem that as a matter of practice, express A trains will run on the local track. I've ridden the A this late at night many times, during various times, and everytime people know that when the A comes in on the local track, it is going local. It's a more reliable than the signs.
Of course people like you who often ride the late night A knows that it runs local. Regular riders will figure out any service pattern that's thrown at them.
Do regular daytime riders who occasionally ride late know what you know about the late night A? No, they don't.
I'm a railfan, and even I didn't know most of the late night variants until I studied the map closely two years ago.
Yet the A train gets substantially higher ridership than the C. Even though it's only 10 minutes, It helps that the A comes so often. If you missed a C train, you can catch an A train and catch up to that C train, and even if it was 5-7 mins ahead of you (talking about Fulton here). And I can name a few occasions where an A express made the difference from me being late to being early, when I only rode it from Canal St to 42nd.
You've changed cases. You had said that someone going from 168th to 135th would pass up a local and wait for an express. That's downright stupid. If the express shows up within one minute, he'll catch that very same local at 145th. If the express doesn't show up within one minute, he'll miss it. By waiting for the express, most of the time he'll end up ten minutes behind and once in a while he'll end up on the same train he had passed up.
If the C runs at 10-minute headways, and the A saves 10 minutes over the C from top to bottom, and you're going to a stop served only by the C, then, if you see a C, it never pays to let it pass, since the A cannot catch up with the next C in front of it. By waiting for an A, either you'll end up back on that same C or you'll miss it.
Of course, if you're going from one express stop to another, waiting for an express sometimes pays off (although, in the case of Canal to 42nd, your expected arrival time is earlier on the local that's there than on the express that isn't, unless the express runs at 2-minute headways or better).
How many A expresses are rerouted to the local track? FEW. Especially at 10pm.
If there's a blockage on the express track, you'd prefer that they back up behind it?
I've already named why it's operationally more sensible. And if there are trains regularly changing signs, you will get poorly signed trains.
The R-32's and R-38's that run on the A switch back and forth a few times each day between Far Rock and Lefferts. The signs are usually (not always, but usually) correct.
That's 20 signs on each train that are usually changed correctly. All I'm asking for is two signs, one at either end of the R-44 train.
This is not an operational question. This is a customer service question. Marking a local exactly the same as an express is best avoided. It can be easily avoided here. So why not avoid it?
And if you look at the present plan, Signs are up all over the place saying that the "A" stops on the local tracks when the C doesn't run. Anyone who reads signs (as you suggest) would know that the A is going to make local stops.
Except at 34th, the signs refer to late night service, with no specific times given. On no other line is 11pm considered late night.
Platform signage is often out-of-date or downright incorrect. (Look at the 4th Avenue line, specifically at 36th and 59th SB, where the signs claim that the N is always on the express track. Indeed, the N always runs express, but all weekend long it runs on the local track, both in practice and by the official timetable.) I want a sign on the train itself indicating to me if it's running local or express. That doesn't seem to me like an outrageous request. Why do you keep objecting to it?
Again: 10:45pm, and an A comes in on the local track. It's obvious. The TA doesn't re-route expresses to the local track at 10:45pm.
Trains are rerouted all the time, for all sorts of reasons, and 10:45pm is very early for a late night service pattern to begin. The 2 is still running express at 10:45pm. The 3 is still running at 10:45pm. The 4 is still running express at 10:45pm. The shuttle is still running at 10:45pm. The B is still running at 10:45pm. (The one time I rode a so-called "late night" A local, there was a B on its tail.) The E is still running express at 10:45pm. The N is still running in Manhattan and Queens at 10:45pm. The R is still running in Manhattan and Queens at 10:45pm. The V is still running at 10:45pm. The W is still running over the bridge at 10:45pm. How on earth would even a seasoned subway rider have any idea that the A runs local at 10:45pm?
If anything, that A train is the one most obviously running local. At what point do these trains meet? Above 145th?
In Train Dude's example, they met at 42nd. Is the one on the local track making local stops or not? I distinctly remember reading a post on SubTalk a few years ago about a race between two A's, both running express, one on the local track.
Again, most people are not confused by the fact that an A running on the local track is running local.
Most regular late night A riders, you mean.
Rarely. It's not the standard practice. You're using a lot of special case examples. What about when C trains run exp from 59th NB, and D trains run local. What happens then? Does that mean that we should make the D the regular local?
Taking a local because you mistakenly thought the express wasn't running comes at a cost of a few minutes, seated in comfort (or possibly standing in somewhat less comfort) on a climate controlled train.
Passing up that local because you think the express is still running comes at the cost of waiting on that platform and possibly allowing multiple local trains to pass you. In fact, if they're headed to a stop beyond Euclid/168, they might be 'waiting until monday morning.'
Taking an express because you mistakenly thought it was a local comes at a cost of (a) being dragged possibly miles out of your way, (b) crossing over to the other platform (as one who suffered from a bad knee for over a year, I can tell you that this is a significant hardship for some passengers), (c) waiting for a local (which can take as much as 20 minutes), and (d) riding back to your intended destination.
Here's the point: it's really hard for anybody to mistakenly get on an express train. If a train is on the local track at 10:45pm, it's going local, period. You've named examples of an A train on the local track going exp, but these were all during GO's, not regular night service. You can't say that your chances of getting one of these shifty trains are anywhere near even 1%. And guess what? If they do let an A train pass them, when the NEXT one arrives on the local track (10-15 mins at most, this early at night) it's a safe bet that they'd get on this A local.
A passenger bound for an express stop prefers an express. A passenger bound for a local stop needs a local. It's not good enough for him that a train is probably making local stops.
It's good enough when that probability is as high as the regular local running express. Because an A making express stops when it's on the local track is just as likely as a C train running express.
Why not? My late night plan would apply equally in the case of a GO that suspends all express service on the line. Right now, what remains is called the A, and local passengers don't know what's going on. By my proposal, it would be called the C. OTOH, if there is both local and express service, and an A shows up on the local track, local passengers would know to let it go unless they heard very clear announcements that it was running local.
When there's a GO, there are signs posted up all over the place indicating that the train is running local. GO's are special cases that can also work in the reverse: What happens when the C runs express?
Do regular daytime riders who occasionally ride late know what you know about the late night A? No, they don't.
Again, the train pulls in on the local track, with a sign indicating that it stops here late nights and makes local stops. Just about anybody will know that this is the local train, tourists included.
I'm a railfan, and even I didn't know most of the late night variants until I studied the map closely two years ago.
That first time you got an A local, did you let it pass up or get on the wrong train?
If there's a blockage on the express track, you'd prefer that they back up behind it?
That's totally irrelevant. What about when there's a blockage on the local track and C trains are rerouted to the express? At 10:30pm, A trains on the local track are making local stops. Special case examples don't prove much of anything. Yes, there are A trains that may get re-routed to the local track, but does that happen regularly? nooooooo.
You've changed cases. You had said that someone going from 168th to 135th would pass up a local and wait for an express. That's downright stupid.
That's my point: many people do ride the trains stupidly.
Of course, if you're going from one express stop to another, waiting for an express sometimes pays off (although, in the case of Canal to 42nd, your expected arrival time is earlier on the local that's there than on the express that isn't, unless the express runs at 2-minute headways or better).
Well, my target destination was 53rd and lex, and I boarded an A at Chambers. When I got to Canal, the local "E" was right across the platform, and I didn't think we'd catch up to another E train, but I figured what'd I have to loose? Sure enough, I caught that next E train at 42nd (much to my surprise). Because of that, I made it in time, whereas that second E would have made me miss the event I was headed to.
The R-32's and R-38's that run on the A switch back and forth a few times each day between Far Rock and Lefferts. The signs are usually (not always, but usually) correct.
I always thought that the only trains that might switch destinations were Rush hour trains that terminated at Dyckman. And while you're right about most trains being signed correctly, some have signage that's very conflicting, indicating that the train is coming from "The Rockaways" (a big deal in the PM, because this was the sign used for Round-robin service) and headed to 168th/Dyckman/207th. A few occasions, I had A trains with C signage, and under your plan that would definately become more prevalent.
Midday "M" trains are the best example of a line that constantly switches signs, and they're wrong a lot.
This is not an operational question. This is a customer service question. Marking a local exactly the same as an express is best avoided. It can be easily avoided here. So why not avoid it?
Because the local is excactly the same as the express. C trains are always next to an A train (or lined up with one) but that doesn't work vice versa (Not that the trains themselves are actually lined up, but the routings). A local passenger at Kingston-Throop knows that A trains run into manhattan, and the sign clearly says: "Late nights A train stops here".
That's 20 signs on each train that are usually changed correctly. All I'm asking for is two signs, one at either end of the R-44 train.
I think it's clear that signage on R44's is frequently incorrect. If what you want becomes the plan, you could have:
C trains with digital displays still showing "A", which ONLY runs express.
C trains saying going to 168th/145th/Concourse or Euclid. These are wrong.
A trains still signed up as C trains.
Trains are rerouted all the time, for all sorts of reasons, and 10:45pm is very early for a late night service pattern to begin. The 2 is still running express at 10:45pm. The 3 is still running at 10:45pm. The 4 is still running express at 10:45pm. The shuttle is still running at 10:45pm. The B is still running at 10:45pm. (The one time I rode a so-called "late night" A local, there was a B on its tail.) The E is still running express at 10:45pm. The N is still running in Manhattan and Queens at 10:45pm. The R is still running in Manhattan and Queens at 10:45pm. The V is still running at 10:45pm. The W is still running over the bridge at 10:45pm. How on earth would even a seasoned subway rider have any idea that the A runs local at 10:45pm?
A rider will know that the train is going local because it's on the local track, plain and simple. Few people are going to say: "wait, it's not quite the time for late night service now." Most riders don't know exactly when the late night service pattern starts anyway, and only detect it when the trains switch up.
I want a sign on the train itself indicating to me if it's running local or express. That doesn't seem to me like an outrageous request. Why do you keep objecting to it?
The big blue A on the front of R44's indicates that the train is going local. That's what the other signs not on the train tell you to look for: when the big blue "A" is on the local track well after rush hours, it's going local.
I keep objecting, because it makes more sense to keep the present plan in place, and because this civilized debate is better than half of the crap on subtalk.
-------
How often do you ride the Late night A train? I've never seen anybody (tourists included) get confused by this arrangement at all. Everybody knows that the train is going local. Your plan seems to be based on the idea of the one time you were surprised to see a Local A train, but you didn't get lost, or have to travel out of the way.
I'll conclude with this note:
2 passengers are waiting at 42nd st. One is going to Rockaway Blvd, the other to Franklin Av. Now, i'm going to put both of them Into each scenario. #1 is the Rock blvd passenger and #2 is the Franklin Av passenger.
Your plan:
A C train pulls in at 10:45. It is correctly signed as heading to Lefferts Blvd. #2 has no qualms about getting on this train. If #1 reads the signs correctly, he too will have no problem about getting on this train. But is #1 going to know that this C train is not incorrectly signed? Do passengers look at the destination sign to determine whether they should get on this train, or just the route designation?
A C train pulls in on the local track at 10:45. It is incorrectly signed, saying that the destination is still Euclid avenue. Passenger #2 again gets on the train no problem, but passenger #1 has no reason to get on this train. True, the Platform sign does say that Late nights C trains are extended to Lefferts, but when exactly does this start? No way to tell if this train is going where he needs it at ALL.
Present Plan:
An "A" train pulls in on the local track. Passenger #1 knows that this train is going where he needs it. #2 looks up at the sign. Late nights A makes all local stops. Train is on the local track, indicating that it is indeed running local. Simple.
Err, i meant "A" train here.
B-R40,R68?
D-R68,R68A
N-R40/40M,R42,R68
Q-R68
W-R40/40M,R42,R68A?
wayne
I'm assumin' there's a few officers around here that might know... anyone? (if not I suppose I'll just call the recruit line... )
Thanks, well in advance. If yee rather, drop me an email at josephanastasio@nyc.rr.com
My reliable sources are several friends in the NYPD whom I've known since their Academy days. I apologize if there are any inaccuracies, but I think I've got it right...hope this helps, as a railfan, ask for TRANSIT! ;-)
thanks for the 411. so long as i ace the written exam as i suspect i will, everything else ought to work out fine.
Please note that your NYPD career could take several paths. In addition to the dozens of job specialties (street patrol, detective, ESU, marine unit, helicopters, anti-terrorism), there's also room or you if you pursue advanced training or a university degree in forensic science, mcrobiology, electronics, computer programming, etc. There is a Deputy Commissioner for Technology and Systems (Ari Wax, unless he retired). Also, if you're interested in law school, the Department probably has a career path there too (remember Colleen Rowley at the FBI? )
So you can do all kinds of things.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, you get to drive fast, go through lights, and play with the lights and siren!! I never outgrew the novelty of that!!!
i like the idea that you have to do tests to enter supervisory slots in the sense that, at least from what i've seen in the corporate world, there is rarely any cut and dry structure as to who should be promoted or not. the last company I worked at was all about stroking egos and nothing else.
how stricit is strict when it comes to the current supervision? i suppose that depends to a degree on the COs... I can't imagine showing up drunk to work though! damn... that's just plain dumb and dangerous. I don't mind rules and the like. i figure it'll be a lot more intense than the private sector in this regard, but that's fine by me. got to give up a little to get a little...
Two observations about Coney Island Yard. First, there is no fixed set of cars assigned to each line -- what ran on the diamond-Q yesterday could run on the N today. Second, R-40's and R-40M's are treated interchangeably, though they always appear in solid trains (except, of course, the lone R-42).
wayne
All remaining Mainline R-33s from Jerome were transferred to 207 Street Shops to be processed for reefing the night of April 23, 2003.
This ends the use of Redbirds on the 4 and, by extension, the IRT Mainlines.
The consist of the very last trip, which took place on Easter Sunday, April 20, 2003 should also be confirmed very soon. The last run would have been NB from Utica Ave. to Woodlawn sometime between 19:30 and 21:00.
That's the best info available at this time.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I shall have to go to watch them go by on the '7' line.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I cannot believe that the above was written with a straight face.
The #2 and the #5 go through some of the richest neighborhoods in the city, all right, but also some of the poorest. However, nobody is forced to change trains at some "border" from the oldest to the newest. The same brand new train one can board at 86th Street-Lexington Avenue, one can leave at 149th Street-Grand Concourse or Winthrop Street.
David
Another line of reasoning is that the TA wanted to send the new rolling stock to the poorest areas to show it "cares." The 7 runs through mostly lower-middle class areas and barely touches Manhattan, so it's less of a priority.
Of course, that decision had nothing to do with socioeconomic conditions and everything to do with Corona maintenace facility :)
#3 West End Jeff
The alternative was to send some Redbirds back in time to be scrapped.
R-32
With hindsight being 20-20, it might have made more sense to start the R-142 infiltration on, say, the 3, which would immediately hand its R-62A's (including singles) to the 7, allowing early retirement of the WF cars. The R-33ML would have been kept on the 2 and/or 5 until the very end.
Notice that the 58 reserve cars are R-33ML.
David
David
As for maintenance, perhaps it shouldn't vary, but it does. Remember all the threads about marker lights? R-33ML's had working marker (and EXP/LOC) lights until the very end.
---Choo Choo
Dig up those binoculars to check car no.s
I noted a string of birds in the back of the yard since about Feb 2003
And the scrap track up front (view from 215st) has been empty for
about just as long.. so atleast we know they arent the ones in back.. :o)
Any idea how much longer the Redbirds wil be on the (7)? R62A's already take up a good part of the fleet.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It appeared that all the R-62s in that division were on the line, so just Red Birds were in the yard ... about 100 cars ? While in service it was about 50/50. The volumn of R-62s is increasing, so the next R-142 delivery is lible to push more Red Birds out of the yard :-(
#3 West End Jeff
And what does that have to do with anything? That is irrelvant and has does not hold back the concept of CBTC in any way.
B) it isn't getting any new equipment (i.e. R-142/As) anytime soon
It will receive it in conjuction with CBTC. Of course, there have been no information on what the rolling stock will look like.
C) The Lex needs it more, and is about 84% (rough estimate) R-142/A.
It's not a matter of one needing it more. You fail to realize CBTC is a very experimental technology. The Canarsie Line (L) was chosen for CBTC testing first since it does not cross with any other route at all, and has a dedicated fleet of rolling stock, which the Lex. lines sharply contrast. The Flushing line will be next because it has only one cross-connection to another route.. The interlocking east of the Queensboro Plaza station on the Flushing-bound platform.
It will receive it in conjuction with CBTC. Of course, there have been no information on what the rolling stock will look like.
How many years into the future will that be? How long will it take for the entire system to become CBTC-retrofitted?
The Canarsie Line (L) was chosen for CBTC testing first since it does not cross with any other route at all...The Flushing line will be next because it has only one cross-connection to another route...
The Canarsie line has four.
1)Queens-bound Bway El track to Canarsie-bound L track
2)Manhattan-bound Canarsie track to Manhattan-bound Bway El track
3)Manhattan-bound Canarsie track to ENY yard (merges with two leads from other lines and a shunting spur)
4)The wye (unelectrified?) at Junius St/Livonia Av
Several years. To be honest, testing can be very long, maybe decades.
The Canarsie line has four.
1)Queens-bound Bway El track to Canarsie-bound L track
2)Manhattan-bound Canarsie track to Manhattan-bound Bway El track
3)Manhattan-bound Canarsie track to ENY yard (merges with two leads from other lines and a shunting spur)
4)The wye (unelectrified?) at Junius St/Livonia Av
This should answer your doubts being straight from the MTA's Capital Program. I apologize for the reasoning before I was too vague and didn't give enough information.
The pilot installation on the Canarsie line and follow-up on the Flushing line will develop, test and standardize the technology. These lines were selected for CBTC development because they are independent from other lines and use dedicated railcar fleets, minimizing the complexity of installation and impact on overall system operations. Afterwards, CBTC will be deployed on the remaining IND lines and complete state-of-good-repair signal work for the entire signal system.
So it wasn't the very existance of crossovers onto other routes, but rather the fact if they're used or not, which in the Canarsie line, none of the crossovers you mentioned are. That's what I meant.
#3 West End Jeff
Here's a portion of the list. Widecab5 can fill in the remainder.
-Stef
The likelihood of any increase is subjct for debate; the newspaper claims its TLC sources don't think it likely.
If it happens, it would change the relative economics of going to JFK Airport, among other things.
Story URL:http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/79336p-72967c.html
Removing the numerical quota on medallions would render existing ones almost worthless. That would be extremely unfair to people who've paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for their medallions. As most of them probably borrowed the funds, using the medallions as collateral, they'd be in default of their loan agreements if the medallions became worthless. The lenders themselves, some of which I believe specialize in medallion lending, would face a slew of delinquencies and defaults.
Really?
1) How do I know who is the lowest, if I'm hailing one from the street?
2) How do I know if the lowest fare cab just got forced off the road at gunpoint by the other Mafia-infiltrated ones and the only cab that will answer my hail is the one with the 300% markup over the average price?
The prices are posted on the door.
2) How do I know if the lowest fare cab just got forced off the road at gunpoint by the other Mafia-infiltrated ones and the only cab that will answer my hail is the one with the 300% markup over the average price?
That's insane.
That's insane.
Thank you.
HOORAY FOR FREE TRADE!! Of course, if anyone could enter the market for the price of the down payment on a car, and fares are driven down by competition to the point where no one could make a living while still doing such maintenance such as buying new tires and relining the brakes, safety will go way down hill. Since there will not be the threat of losing a valuable medallion, no one will fear inspection by the people who regulate taxicabs (who will now be underfunded). When drivers cannot make an honest living anymore, they will turn to dishonest ways, such as steering people to prostitutes, selling illegal substances, fronting liquor purchases for underage buyers, and all the other things we in Southern California see happening with Tijuana taxicab drivers. Think of all the problems with the dollar vans magnified, and add on the probability that the best hack stands will be controlled by those collecting tribute from favored drivers, and you see where sometimes there has to be regulation by more than free market competition. But at least my Doppelgänger Travis Bickle will always have a job.
Tom
You should use real crimes that actually have victims to further your point.
I don't know how Mike feels about this. While I agree with him, I feel there should still be regulation and safety inspections, various fees and the like.
It would be kaos. As it is there are already plenty of livery cabs operating illegally in manahttan and the outer bouroughs. Remove all restrictions and it would be kaos
20 years ago most cabs were operated by cab compnaies(lagely the same companies who lease out cabs to operators now) who paid drivers and hourly rate. The cab union demanded that they become independent operators and the cab companies monopoly was unfair. I believe at the time full time cab drivers had health insurance
Today cabbies must lay out hundreds of dollars a week to rent a cab and it is on the cabbies back to take the risk of earning enough money to pay the rental fees.
The end result is that many lower income new yorkers are excluded from working as cabbie becasue of the upfront cost. Cab drivers give a large portion of the fare income to pay the cab rental. Many cabs lay idle especially at night and now that the economy has cooled. Many cabbie refuse to take riders to the outer bouroughs because the economics of the cab riding idle back to manahattan make making shorter trips more profitable.I am white although put me in a latin club and I fit right in, I often have to trick the cabbie into taking me home. One cabbie though my friend and I out in the middle of ocean parkway when he realized how far into brooklyn we lived. He figured we lived in brooklyn heights not all the way out in sheepshead bay. If not for the 20 min headways on the Q we would have taken the train.
The city should make an effort to have more owner operated cabs. Owner operated cabs have fewer accidents, have more experience drivers and the cabs are genreally in better condition. The most important thing is that the driver who puts in the work gets to keep a nice poertion of the revenue not the cab companies. The city should provide low cost financing to city residents plus force medallion companies to sell medalions not utilized at least 60% of the time.
Owner operated cabs should also be allowed to keep the cab in service an addtional year rather then the standard retirment due to the better upkeep
Unless they've changed the rules since I last read them (and it's been a while) fleet cabs are allowed to remain in service for 30 months while owner-operated cabs can remain in service for 60 months. I don't know but what there may also have been a mileage restriction as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for blowing the wad early - I usually hold off on these things, but I really didn't expect many to know the spot. Cuff'em, Dan-O. :)
Gerard Avenue, know the place well.
Peace,
ANDEE
The old system though not perfect sounds a whole lot better then the system that is currently in place. It open the position up to all new yorkers. Plus from an environmental standpoint, if the cab companies had to pay for the gas maybe there would be a clamor for hybrid drive cabs that would save cab companies a fortune. Instead the cab companies are looking for bigger cabs that they can lease out for more.
Unfortunity it is not a win win for the drivers and the public. The main reason is that drivers will not want to lease a car when they perceive that they will not make enough money to cover the lease leaving to few cars on the road. The leasing companies answer is raise the fare to make the equation more attractive
With more advanced technology that exists today to combat theft the theft of fare issue could be virtually eliminated.
Lets hope the 200 or so new medalions the city wants to sell find there hands into as many owner operated cabs as possible
That may have been the case in New York, but fleet cab companies have gone out of business all over the country. The owner operator or individuals leasing cabs with a co-op for dispatching calls has become the industry model. Besides not having to provide pensions or health benefits, or deal with employee unions, what drove the large cab companies out of business was the high cost of insurance. Every accident would bring a claim, so someone operating 200 cabs had a lot of exposure and had to have insurance coverage for all the company assets in case of a multi-million dollar judgment. With the owner/lessee system, each individual driver is the only one sued after an accident, and after the insurance company pays the liability policy limit, which will be the legal minimum for a vehicle for hire, the driver files bankruptcy and goes into another line of work.
>>> Today cabbies must lay out hundreds of dollars a week to rent a cab and it is on the cabbies back to take the risk of earning enough money to pay the rental fees. <<<
And you find something wrong with that? It is a chance for an entrepreneur to go into business with virtually no capital. The high rent covers the cost of the vehicle, the maintenance on the vehicle, the vehicle for hire liability insurance on the vehicle as well as collision insurance. Sure owner/operators make more money, but they have the added capital costs included in the rental price others pay, and deserve a fair return on their capital as well as their labor while driving the cab.
Tom
The end result would be more native new yorkers who need jobs obtaining the jobs. The Bloomberg administration removed on hurdle by shorting the required cabbie cost and reducing the few to get a licence. Bloomber is also sending TLC recruiters to job assistance center(or whatever they call the wellfare offices now)
The immigrant work force that currently drives cabs is willing to lay out money for a sometimes uncertain return. Even with the leasing system some drivers do pretty well. Some native new yorkers don't see the bennifit of leasing a cab.
one of the biggest problems is that they must stay out on long shifts in order to make sure they don not loose money. In addtion the current system although technically illegal, discourages drivers from leaving the central business districts such as manhattan sout of 96th street because they often depend on catching fares in both directions to maximize time.
I have had drivers tell me tons of excuses why they could not take me to brooklyn. One driver told me he had to go to the bathroom and that he was hoping to get a fare going uptown. At the time I had a sheild from my job and told him it was illegal. He drove me home. On the way out I asked him if he wanted to use my batheroom. He refused
I don't really blame them sometimes for not wanting to go to brooklyn. Yes, the fear of gettn lost is part of the issue. They are under the gun to make enough money to pay the lease, there rent and sometimes send money back to there home country. Not to mention driving is sometimes streesfull especially a crappy car like a ford crown vic
Most drivers try to save some time and head over to JFK after droping me off since I live along the belt parkway.
The problem is that cab has to drive back 20-30 minutes empty. Besides the lost fares, longer rides generally result in lower tips as a pecentage of the cab fare
Many people give a dollar or two on a 5-10 ride
On a $30-35 ride people tend to give the same tip
In addition many illegal immigrants share thre TLC licences and drive. Many of these drivers send a good portion back home to there country to help support there wife and kinds. A noble endevor but that is money draining out of NYC economy. If more natives drove, more of that money would be spent in NYC. They need to make extra money to pay their rent
Getting back to this, its a real tough job b/c not only you gotta break even but they send money overseas like you said, living costs, gas [or do the fleets handle that?] and other expenses sometimes I wonder how they get by and if business is stiff and flat, even worse. Should they get a raise, I don't know but from the way things are and historically cab fares went up when transit fares go up, it seems more likely.
As for getting a raise, I don't believe it is warrented. The leasing companies need to come down on the prices. The problem is historically the city has always bailed and did the easy thing and raise the fare. Remember that the leasing companies are big campaign contributers.
An easy way to reduce the leasing companies costs is to gat rid of the mandatory cab retirement age. Under the current system, cabs must be retired after X number of years no matter there condition. Many of these cabs end up in car service fleets. The law is desinged to keep the cab fleet in pretty condition. Once a cab hits the manditory age, the cab owner should have a right to have an inspection done to keep the cab on the roas
It is a polular notion that cab passengers have plenty of money and a fare raise won't hurt.
There are numerous ways to reduce the cost of operating the cabs and to allow cab drivers to earn a living wage. If a cab driver has enough to send to another country to support his family then Native then the fare is priced fine the way it is.
As for a cab's mandatory age, I think that is just stupid IMO b/c that gives more leverage to a Livery & Car services and even if the car is well maintained, it has to be sold, auctioned or whatever they do with them. If the car is junk, then that's a different story
All rides within city limits must be charged at the metered rate according to T&LC rules. The one exception is for JFK trips. It would be easier to find drivers willing to take people to the outer boroughs if there were a surcharge for out-of-Manhattan trips. This would recognize a simple fact, namely that a driver who brings a fare to, say, Brooklyn is likely to have to return to Manhattan empty. Of course, were there such a surcharge, the car services would do better, and there would be claims that the surcharges were inequitable to the (generally less affluent) residents of the outer boroughs.
Robert
Only 19-20 train sets are needed on the L line (82 mins R/T, plus 5 min layover @ current 4 min intervals) equals 21 train sets.
So, about 8 trainsets can be used on the M line which is all it's needed between Metropolitan and Chambers, additional R42 sets will pick up the slack on rush hour runs to Bay Parkway. However, with CBTC in place next year or so, more trainsets are needed on the L line, but not by much only about 4 sets to my estimates.
Still you have about 5 trainsets on the M line.
Or are you referring to the route letter?
I think he meant the route letter.
wayne
Thank you for your insight on some of the BMT stations, especially a closer look at the painstakingly detail of the mosaics at Wilson and B.A. stations.
wayne
til next time
Peace,
ANDEE
:0)
David
Vivent longtemps la fenêtre des amoureux de "chou-choux"
Why does the LIRR use it's current signal system rather than the more simplistic Red-Amber-Green?
Thanks...Rich
Speak for yourself, the LIRR is well known to be virtually synonimous with the PRR.
Like the Southern Pacific used to do, when they had six locomotives on their trains and three were always dead motors...
PRR signalling includes flashing aspects.
Mark
Even the overhead signal support towers were costly to build/maintain.
Again, how would you propose having signals displayed to trains on a 4-6 track main line?
Still, compared to colourlight it was way in the minority.
1) what is the point of a changable signal above a fixed signal? Example: on the PW-bound track at woodside,there is the standard "vert, horiz, diag" sign. However, below that, there is only a vertical signal. Now, it cant be a home signal, because there is no interlocking. Can anyone explain the redundancy?
2) Is the LIRR main Fleeted? Does LIRR do fleeting? and how is traffic on the Far Rock, Long Beach branches regulated because I cant notice any signals.
Search for NORAC on yahoo.
2) That is done through cab signals.
Is the signal in question in advance of an interlocking, say one or two signals' worth??
That is a distant signal. The signals before an interlocking usually have to warn the Engineer to expect any diverging movements (like Approach Medium, Approach Limited or Approach Slow) and these signals require a second head.
2) Is the LIRR main Fleeted? Does LIRR do fleeting? and how is traffic on the Far Rock, Long Beach branches regulated because I cant notice any signals.
You seem to be confused on the definition of fleeting. First, only home signals can be fleeted. When one is it only means that the signal will re-clear as track conditions warrent it and the towerperson does not have to manually neutral and then re-clear the signal. The LIRr Main Line from HAROLD to JAY is all automatic signals which do not need to be fleeted as they are automatic.
All LIRR lines except for the Main Line and some un-electrified branch lines (like the OB) and the Flatbush Ave Line have had their automatic signals removed and only have signals at interlockings (with some exceptions). Trains are governed between interlockings by cab signal (ASC) indication only.
Being a fan of the Reading Company, I learned railroad signaling with color light aspects conveying the signal indication. However, learning position light was not that difficult.
The only drawback of position light is in a tunnel such as the Hudson or East River tunnels.
And one light bulb burned out on a postion light array does not have the impact that the middle bulb being burned out an interlocking home board has. On the position light array, you can still read the aspect of the signal. However, if the middle aspect is burned out on a three aspect home board, it's "stop and stay" until you communicate with the dispatcher.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim K.
Chicago
I am not so sure about that. Unless you can cite the specific example, basically the PRR simply replaced their semaphore arms with rows of 4 lamps. This change was brought about by the need to find an all electric signaling system that was visable in bad weather and in the new electrified territories (they first appeared on the Paoli and Chestnut Hill lines). Using lights to simulate a semaphore arm was a natural progression and the closest example in Europe are the route "feathers" on British Rail. However these were adopted in 1948. In fact, Danish State railways were so impressed with the PRR dwarf "pot" signal that they adpoted them and they are still in service today.
Anyway, the PRR changed the 4-lamp system to the current 3-lamp system we see today. they also replaced the "tombstone" style backing with the rounded shield targets we know today.
The Pennsylvania RR billed itself as the "Standard Railroad of the World". Thus, anything that was connected with the Pennsy, and the LIRR was owned by it until the late 1950's IIRC, was influenced by the PRR.
Jim K
Chicago
PORT interlocking, between Freeport and Merrick, is being rebuilt. A few days ago, the new signals were still covered, so I don't know if they're anything different than standard PRR position lights.
Mark
I wouldn't be surprised if they installed PL's. All the block signals they just removed over the last 3 years are all in storage somewhere. Free beats pay any day.
A few days ago, the new signals were still covered, so I don't know if they're anything different than standard PRR position lights.
A PL is easy to tell even if covered. How big were the targets?
Yup, 2 "yard" tracks north and a freight siding south of the mainline.
How is it being rebuilt?
I don't know all of the specifics, but there are some new wayside equipment sheds, new wiring strung from the wayside poles, and some new poles. I noticed new wooden ties recently delivered. Maybe one of these days I'll investigate some more. I don't know for sure about rails and switches, but it certainly does appear that it's getting the royal treatment.
I wouldn't be surprised if they installed PL's. All the block signals they just removed over the last 3 years are all in storage somewhere. Free beats pay any day.
The existing signal for eastbound entry into the interlocking on the usually-westbound track was a high dwarf and the new signal looks full-sized. Other than that, it's hard to tell what's changed as long as they're bagged.
A PL is easy to tell even if covered. How big were the targets?
They're PLs for sure, I meant that I don't know if they'll be the old PRR standbys or colorizations. I haven't seen the newfangled signal in HALL, so I really don't know what experimental signal goodies the railroad has on its collective mind. I'd doubt anything other than tried'n'true position lights at PORT.
What's the story with the new one in Jamaica?
Mark
The LIRR will not be installing Amtrak style colourized PL's. I guess the only question is if the new signal at PORT will be a re-manufactured US&S or a new SafeTran model. I hope they keep the M-3 switch machines and don't switch to those damn generic switch machines I have seen popping up all over the system.
I'm not familiar with the * notation - is that a flasher?
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
MTA - It is our way or no way
MTA - Going nowhere, fast
MTA - Where do you think you're going?
MTA - Don't go there
MTA - Going Your Way, And Taking All Day.
Peace,
ANDEE
MTA - Going to hell. And now with metrocard, faster and easier.
Hey wait a minute -- does that mean the "M" in MTA is being renamed to Microsoft Transportation Authority?
--Mark
From the operator's manual: If you experience a dead motor, have all the passengers step off the train; recycle the doors; then have them reboard the train, and start up the motor.
:0)
-Robert King
Which is precisely why it is a successful parody. Back in my college days I wrote a few myself, but none as good as that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
www.forgotten-ny.com
Peace,
ANDEE
But it IS interesting to note that Joe Bruno's turned over a new leaf and turned on the Paturkey. Maybe there's hope yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
If I had a token for every time *I* had to tell the unsuspecting, "there's another train right behind this one" ... heh.
According to today's Daily Telegraph, he's alive and well. He's also trying to give himself up to the Yankee army, but they won't arrest him as he's not one of the 55. So they've stationed a tank outside his place to hold back the fans (among whose number is Dubya).
I just read somewhere (Weekly World News?) that Dubya is gonna appoint MSS as the admins new Press Secretary. He's as truthful as whoever's in the job at the moment.
Either, that or the guy who plays Joe Isuzu is out of a job. MSS has TRUTH written under his beret.
Isn't he related to Joe Isuzu ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hope? No I don't THINK so. More than likely that SCUMBAG Bruno's pockets are being lined by someone else. Wouldn't trust Bruno as far as I could spit bricks.
Peace,
ANDEE
From today's New York Times ...
SUBWAY SECURITY The City Council's public safety and transportation committees have scheduled a joint public hearing on security in the city subway system. Council Chambers, City Hall, Manhattan, 1 p.m. Information: (718) 888-8747.
--Mark
Let's see ... if I can buy 100 boxes of adult diapers at $5 per box, and resell them at the meeting at a 100% markup ... hey, today should be a very profitable day for me!
Others: use the new South Ferry Station to get across Battery Place/State Street. Use the proposed Second Avenue Subway station to get under West Street. Improve the use of passageways from the top of pedestrainized Nassau Street through the Brooklyn Bridge and Chambers Street station to move from the financial district to the Civic Center and Downtown without crossing Park Row at grade. Etc.
West Street especially. It's always been a real nightmare to cross.
The entire area between Water Street and Broadway is very pedestrianized, like a medieval old town, and Battery Park City is as well. Now these will be connected. And you can walk outside fare control along the Chambers Street A/C station to a point north of Chambers and West of Church, in Tribeca.
(That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen, only that it's part of the current plan.)
I figure that's the second-best solution. The BEST solution would be to put West Street in a tunnel, but that's not going to happen.
Last I heard they still plan to do an underpass in front of the BPC site itself, allowing a passage at grade.
This is money well spent to infuse the anemic Downtown area, it needs it SO BAD! And the city will benefit from the tourist industry too. The first step is already taken place with the reopening of the New Millennium hotel next week, at Church Street across from Ground Zero.
But the GREATEST heroes IMO are the brave passengers who sacrificed their lives AND THIS COUNTRY in taking back Flight 78 from terrorists but crash landed in a PA field.
I remember listening to 770AM on the ride back, just not beleiving it. Until I got home and saw the towers fall.
Anyway, I'll buy you a beer some day for helping out those people (I work on Exchange Place).
Make it an Orangeade! :)
Made by Osaka Orangeade Concern. It's loaded with wasabi.
BTW, can you post that list of train-references in the Simpsons again? That list was amazingly concise.
Apparently I did, just not as a response to #1-12.
Then there's the Hobo telling stories for sponge bathes, the Simpsons were heading to vacation in Wilmington Delaware.
See #9.
During the time of the attack, I was on my computer playing Doom II but I didn't hear about the attack until my aunt called me and told me about the disaster on TV (this was at 10:30am). I shut off my game and tuned into the TV which I was glued to for the rest of that morning and early afternoon. I didn't get off it until after 1:00pm when I went out to lunch in shock and bewilderment. I was my mom's birthday that day she turned 47.
How old are you?
The coffee that I had there in 1999 was very good. I don't drink coffee largely because I don't enjoy hot beverages. For me it has to be cold, solid or a sauce.
Michael Moore is generally an idiot, but he was 100% correct some months ago when he said, in effect, that if most of the passengers on all the hijacked aircraft had been black men - rather than middle- and upper-class white men, as really was the case - the World Trade Center would still be standing.
I'm just repeating what Michael Moore said, mainly because it's so true in an ironic sense. And it sort of fits in with my diatribes about suit-covered anuses and paranoid bedwetting cowards.
As I said already, Moore usually is an idiot, but he was correct in this case. I don't consider his statement racist because he was criticizing whites, and he himself is white (and I am too).
Indeed. The tenets of most faiths allow for devout and faithful adherence, while being respectful, tolerant and compassionate toward other faiths.
For example: Both Catholics and Muslims have told me that, in their teaching, if you follow your faith or credo, whatever it is and however you define it, and treat others well, you are "saved" or honored to go to heaven, or paradise, etc.
Well, of course.
I think you might have misinterpreted what I had said. The point which Michael Moore brought up, and with which I happen to agree, is that middle-class and upper-class white men are by and large unaccustomed to any sort of physical confrontations and are very unlikely to get involved in a violent situation even when inaction may be dangerous or deadly. It's not a matter of race so much as upbringing. If you're a 40 year old executive, whose last physical confrontation was when an older kid punched you and took your lunch money when you were in fourth grade, and whose current idea of physical activity is playing a round of golf with an electric cart, chances are very good that you're going to be reluctant to challenge the hijackers who just took over your flight even though (a) the situation is looking pretty grim, and (b) there are enough other adult men on the flight to overpower the hijackers with ease.
This being said, I have a couple of things to add. First of all, it might well be that social class, not race, is the real factor at play. In other words, when Michael Moore made joking reference to airplanes full of black men, he probably was not thinking of upper class black executives, but rather "urban" types, for lack of a better term. Similarly, if the white men on the flights had been working-class types, they probably would have fought back. It was their social class, not skin color, that made them passive. Secondly, even your white executive types may be willing to fight back if things are really desparate - witness the passengers on United 93, who fought back (too late to save themselves, unfortunately) when they found out from cell phone calls that they almost certainly were doomed.
Most serial killers are white men
Most Drug dealers arrested are black men (some women too)
These are facts based on FBI and law enforcement agencies statistics across this country.
Michael Moore's theory is not just or proven, even with Sociology tests in place, there are no solid facts to justify his claims. So the outcome of black people on board the same 4 planes might be the same results.
CASE CLOSED, he is a bigot.
CASE CLOSED, he is a bigot. >>
He's also an idiot but I think that goes hand in glove with being a bigot.
...he probably was not thinking of upper class black executives, but rather "urban" types, for lack of a better term. Similarly, if the white men on the flights had been working-class types, they probably would have fought back. It was their social class, not skin color, that made them passive.
You just proved yourself wrong. Stop now while you have the chance.
Right. My comments were based on class more than race per se, as I already noted.
In addition, to the extent that what I said could be viewed as racist, it was critical of my own race, which in today's culture is okay.
......man, you outta your mind. Where you pickin' up this crap? Dude, you better like what you are....and be proud of it, too, damnit!! Screw "today's (sic) culture"...that ain't culture. It's just a weakness none of us need. And another thing, re the criticism bit. Sez Who? I love that logic. To me, it looks like:
"Oh, listen to me! I'm puttin' down my "people". See, I ain't like THEM. Yet, I so admire the goodness in "YOUR" people. So please, like me! I'll do anything to get you to like me, even debase my ancesters....please please please LIKE ME!"
Pathetic.
Rumor has it that the PATH people even delayed their own escape on the last train for several minutes as they talked a reluctant skell into leaving.
I wrote a letter to both agencies expressing my thanks (even though I was in Philly at the time). I had just been on the 207 St shop tour 2 days before.
I got a nice letter back saying my letter had been reproduced and posted in superintendents' offices.
It still hurts.
mark
Cowardice describes it too, but then there was lots of bravery afterwards. The hijackers WERE cowards as they believed in the afterlife.
Don't hold your breath. Given the way Pataki and Company keep diddling around with the WTC rebuilding, it probably will be many years, possibly decades, before anything gets done (except the temporary PATH terminal now under construction, of course). Sure, this transit hub would be really nice, but if it opens any time before 2010, I'd be extremely surprised.
- The governor said a new enclosed bridge over West Street, near Vescey Street, would be completed by November to coincide with the opening of the temporary PATH station.
- He said the Liberty Street walkway and bridge would be upgraded, linking the World Financial Center to the rest of Lower Manhattan.
- The governor promised continued support for the Downtown Alliance's program to beautify Broadway from Bowling Green to City Hall. The plan includes improvements such as the installation of granite curbs, new lighting and the addition of granite strips noting each ticker tape parade that has been held in the "Canyon of Champions."
- Pataki said that a new Greenmarket would open this summer at Broadway and Liberty Park Plaza.
- The black shroud which still covers the Deutsche Bank building next to Ground Zero will be replaced with a mural to lessen the "blight" it brings to the area, he said.
- The governor asked the Lower Manhattan Development Corp. for $3 million toward the completion of the Millennium High School, which is slated to open in September for 250 ninth and 10th graders.
- He also said he wanted the LMDC to use $10 million to upgrade public spaces in Lower Manhattan, including those in Chinatown and Tribeca.
- As part of an effort to help businesses, the governor said the Empire State Development Corp. planned a new $7 million "I Love New York" campaign that would market Lower Manhattan to domestic and international audiences.
The Transportation Hub
--The governor said the transportation complex, for which the federal government has already earmarked $4.5 billion, will get underway immediately.
-- The heart of the complex will be a new PATH terminal, which will open up onto the large square included in Libeskind's plan, Pataki said. It will have longer platforms and will be connected by an underground passageway to a new subway center at Fulton Street.
-- At Fulton Street, the governor said, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority would "untangle nine subway lines" that serve Lower Manhattan, add more station entrances and include the underground walkway that will lead to the PATH terminal and continue on to the World Financial Center.
-- Pataki said he had asked the LMDC, the Port Authority and the MTA to begin a study on linking Lower Manhattan to Long Island and Kennedy Airport by direct rail. He said a plan would be chosen within a year.
-- In the interim, fast ferry service would be considered as an option to connect downtown to the airports, he said. Ferry service to La Guardia Airport would hopefully be in place by late 2004 and that service to JFK's Air Train would be available by 2005, the governor said
That would be pretty cool, high speed ferries going to, uh, Howard Beach I guess. Interesting logistics there. I haven't heard of many airport mass transit connections involving taking a fast ferry to an intra-airport rail line. If that's what the above quote is referring to, taking the boat to the Howard Beach station. If so you'd probably get some commuter traffic on those ferries.
It WOULD be a good way for tourists to get to Manhattan. And that would be another boost for downtown. Good ol' ferries....there aught to be a Ferry Museum in the city, they've served us well, century after century.
The redering looks like grand central with a modernistic take
Personally I prefer the classic stylings of grand central
I hear you but it's not as good as when long-distance trains used the terminal. My favorite is Hoboken. Platforms and rails on one side, (soon to be re-opened) ferry piers and the Mighty Hudson on the other side. As an aside, I've always had a weak spot in my heart for the regions' secondary stations and terminals, like Jamaica, both Newarks, even Saint George. I'm glad we can still use such facilities considering how few cities have more than the one station.
(St. George as an interstate train terminal......hmmmm. Maybe in 20 years or so.)
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Is this true or did I miss something? If it is true, has this scenarion presented itself previously in the [NYC] subway's history?
AFAIK, not in NYC. However Paris allows this 3 stop walk on line 3:
St Lazare (3,12,13) - Haussmann St Lazare (E) - Havre Caumartin (3,9) - Auber (A) - Opéra (3,7,8)
Also a shorter walk on line 4:
Châtelet (1,4,7,11) - Châtelet Les Halles (A,B,D) - Les Halles (4)
NYC, no. In Chicago, however, it's possible to walk through six stations without leaving the paid zone and without boarding a train.
Both the Red Line (under State Street) and the Blue Line (under Dearborn Street) have stations at Washington, Monroe, and Jackson Streets that are linked to one another with continuous platforms! Plus, the Red and Blue are linked to one another with transfer passages at Washington and Jackson. Imagine starting at Washington Street on either line, walking along platform to Monroe Street and on to Jackson Street, then through the passage to the other line and along that platform to Monroe Street and on to Washington Street station, then through the other passage back to your starting point.
How do the geese tell where the train's gonna stop?
For instance, I'd like to see a connection along 42nd Street or 41st Street between the Times Square and 6th Avenue stations. The 7 would then stop twice in the same complex. Come to think of it, the 7 at 5th Avenue comes quite close to the shuttle at Madison; perhaps they could be connected as well, and the 7 would stop three times in the same complex (and the shuttle would never leave the complex at all).
Or, getting back to lower Manhattan, the Park Place and City Hall stations are across the street from each other -- might as well connect them. Carry the connection across City Hall Park to the 4/5/6. Now the A, C, J, M, Z, N (or W), R, 2, 3, 4, and 5 each stop twice within the same complex. But one real benefit is the direct transfer between the 6 and the A/C/2/3, which it doesn't have currently. (The connections between the 2/3 and the J/M/Z/4/5 would also be easier.)
ASAP, in New York transit-related terms, means "sometime within the next 25 years."
That could actually be done sooner than 2010 if PATH wanted to do so.
I think they would want to launch direct rail service to both EWR and JFK around the same time, the PATH extension is the easiest to build (whether to the Rail link station or right into the Terminal area).
However because of politics and the PA not wanting to play favorites I think they would try to introduce both within a year or two of each other.
1) It notes 2009 as the completion date of the permanent PATH terminal. By all other accounts the date was supposed to be late 2006.
2) The location of the permanent PATH station in this article,as well as the Star-Ledger article, seems to be the same as the temporary station. Other press releases indicate that a separate, all new station would be created east of the temporary station. If the former is true, why is so much time and money needed given the work that is currently proceeding? If it's the latter, then I have no questions.
Can anyone shed light on these musings?
More ambiguous is the future location of the PATH tracks, because Pataki said the station would be expanded to allow 10-car trains. I don't know how they fancy doing that.
It'd be kinda cool if they got regularly scheduled helicopter service from lower manhatten (with a branch terminal at 34th st on the east river) to EWR, JFK, Teterboro (as a semi-rich commuter terminal), and LGA. Maybe a headway of 15 to 30 minutes, using new Sikorsky S-92s and charging a fare just slightly more than a cab ride would help to bolster the service. And a dozen or so S-92s for PANJNY (or whomever operates the service) in the ledgerbook for Sikorsky would certainly help it fight off Eurocopter (alright, so a dozen helicopter is peanuts, but maybe it'd help with export sales. "Look, New York is getting these, you here in [insert major overseas city] should too"). At some point later VTOL or STOVL airliners could even be used, based on the Bell V-22 or Bell/Agusta model 609, flying to that Helipad on Columbus Blvd in philly, or someplace similar in Boston, Albany, or New Haven. A civilian V-22 could easily replace the current deHavillands and Embraers that ply the NEC, and their City to City times probably would beat the 737 size and speed shuttles, all without taking up precious landing slots at any of NY's airports. Course this would be bad for the improving of Amtrak's NEC, since Acela would have a hard time touching the V-22's cruising speed, and the drive to and from the airport would be eliminated, giving the V-22 probably the best door to door time of any mode on the East Coast.
But then, if they can do it better, cheaper, and just generally more efficient than trains, then why do we need trains? Excuse my blasphemy, but at some point we need to look, does rail stand a chance against such a foe? If not then it would be better to stand aside and bow out with some grace rather than try to compete in a self destructive manner with something that can beat travel times while matching fares.
Oh well, sorry to get carried off, was just supposed to just be a quick question, and if anyone has the answers to my questions, they'd be greatly appreciated.
By 2009/10 I will bet that there will be direct rail service to EWR via the PATH and JFK either via a Super Subway or LIRR.
One idea I have is that perhaps the PATH should continue through the WTC Transportation hub, through the Fulton Street Hub, through a new East River tunnel and connect to the LIRR's Flatbush/Atlantic Ave branch all the way to JFK via Jamaica.
That way there would be direct rail service to both Airports, with similar service levels, plus the bonus of linking Brooklyn, Jamaica and JFK with Jersey City, Newark and EWR.
They would need new cars with better seating, like Washington's Metro.
The announced plan for the Fulton Street Transit Center goes out through the end of 2007. I wouldn't bet on any earlier than that. A plausible scenario is that the FSTC and the WTC hub get finished at very nearly the same time. The two projects are of comparable complexity, and their designs will need to be linked at the hip.
"By 2009/10 I will bet that there will be direct rail service to EWR via the PATH and JFK either via a Super Subway or LIRR."
I am less sanguine about this. Gov. Pataki's speech referred to the PATH EWR extension plans as "ongoing" (implying that the Port Authority is already working on it), and he gave a date of 2010. Any date that far out is subject to huge estimating error, but certainly someone in the Port Authority has done enough to believe it's achievable.
But for the JFK extension, all he promised was to decide on a design approach within a year. Every approach mooted so far is either very expensive (in the $4-5 bn range), or sacrifices existing subway service (e.g., the Brookfield plan). I'll believe it when there's more meat on the bones.
"One idea I have is that perhaps the PATH should continue through the WTC Transportation hub, through the Fulton Street Hub, through a new East River tunnel and connect to the LIRR's Flatbush/Atlantic Ave branch all the way to JFK via Jamaica."
That idea isn't on any agency's radar screen, as far as I know. Some have suggested connecting PATH to the #6 subway line. I rate that as more likely to happen than sending PATH through the East River -- but still most unlikely in the foreseeable future.
PATH has already paid for a feasibility study to be done.
The first level down can also have direct access on the Nassau St. side of the Transit Hub to the downtown J/M/Z platform. The second level down can serve as an underpass to the IRT 4/5 downtown platforms, and access on the north side to the mezzanine level of the A/C platform one block to the north at Fulton. However, due to the Nassau St. layout, it can't access the Willie B-bound platform for the J/M/Z -- that will have to be done from the third level down.
Given the drop in elevation west of Broadway and the location of the N/R tracks at Church Street, the third level below ground is probably were the pedestrian walkway between Broadway/Nassau and Battery Park City will end up located (three levels below ground at Broadway is only two levels underground at Church -- and also below the N/R tracks -- and by the time you get to Greenwich Street, it would only be one level below the street from there to BPC, though that could change depending on how that handle the reconstruction of West Street).
I would guess that if the MTA still plans to tie in the BMT and IND stops on Church with the Broadway-Nassau complex, the fare control pssageway will be on the north side of the transit hub, while the free pedestrian walkway to the Liebskin project and BPC would be at the south end.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see more concrete details on the plan based on the artists' conceptions when they are released.
Regular operation of R-33s on the #4 was discontiued on April 14, 2003. For the following week, three trainsets were held on stand-by at Jerome Yard and three round trips were operated.
On Thursday, 4/17/03 and Saturday, 4/19/03, one trip each was covered by (S) 9233/9232-9300/9301-9108/9109-9235/9234-9255/9254 (N).
The final Redbird to operate on the IRT Mainlines, on Sunday April 20, 2003, was (S) 9302/9303-8842/8843-9295/9294-9090/9091-9241/9240 (N). This made the 17:46 SB Woodlawn to Utica Ave. (as previously reported by Pelham Bay Dave). It returned as the 19:11 from Utica, with a schedule into Woodlawn at 20:12. The train was relayed to Bedford Park Blvd. middle and laid up from there.
Transfer of all remaining R-33s from Jerome to 207 Street was via Concourse Yard (IND) the night of April 23, 2003.
...And there they rest...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It's true that these cars were durable, but that is in the past now; many of the redbirds have been corroding for quite sometime. Certianly they are nostolgic, but even good things have to come to an end. -Nick
Maybe I'll get lucky in October.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Larry, RedbirdR33
On the 4 today, April 29, 2003: 1131-1140 (S to N, in order).
That's Trainset #7.
No R-62 movements to 3 yet.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I take it you're nowhere near 215st to take them yourself??
Taken August 20, 2001 by myself
More pictures of other NYC Subway stations and more at www.orenstransitpage.com.
On the second page of Newest Images, your HBLR photos' image dates are either 5/24/03 or 5/28/03. May 2003 hasn't arrived yet. :-p
Chaohwa
Robert
--Mark
Oh, by the way, did you hear that the fare's going to go up?
So, what is the difference?
'The ball rolls down the playfield rolling over a wire which engages a microswitch. The switch sends a signal to the CPU. The CPU interprets the switch, looks up its subroutine and acts: lights light, score is registered, action (sound or motor/solenoid) engages...'bumper action.'' CI Peter
[note: having fun, the BMT standards did NOT run on steam]
Emergency response is NOT the job of train crews whether we like it or not ...
But yeah, at Branford, you guys actually empty the tanks and LEAVE them that way. :)
The ice was very hard and stuck to the bottom of the doors, keeping L1 from closing, performing the 3-tries then fail system. Kicking the snow off the ice didn't help. The motorman had to get a long, wooden bar to whack the ice with repeated blows to crack it off. It was an experience. (By this time we were delayed 5 minutes from our normal departure time.)
Unless there's politicos riding, the singular exception. :)
I just home Bloomberg and Kalikow knew this before they met with that Alabama Senator in charge of transportation money. We need all the help we can get.
Contrary to the stereotype about Alabamans, the RSA is a savvy investor -- they have effectively seized control of US Airways and were instrumental in putting together the deals which brought that airline out of bankruptcy so quickly.
If the RSA perceives any increase in value can come from transit improvements, I suspect that the Senator Larry referenced was well aware of his states vested interest long before meeting with Bloomberg and friends.
CG
I often accuse other states of trying to drain NYC until it's dry, and having no stake in its future. I guess I can't say that about Alabama.
55 Water Street probably was a good investment at the time RSA bought it. That's no longer true, of course, but even sophisticated investors make mistakes.
The building had asbestos insulation, but that was being worked on in the 1980’s when I worked there. I can’t believe that the asbestos hasn’t been removed by now.
All Alabama (and we!) need is an economy, so that Downtown occupancy levels increase!
Of course, the SAS wouldn’t hurt either!
I passed the building at 161 St and Third Av this afternoon, and it appears that it was being demolished. If that is the case, then one of the last surviving parts of the Manhattan Elevated will be lost. Very, very sad....
-Stef
New York preserves plenty of buildings within its environment, but it also renews a lot more than other cities do, which helps preserve the tax base.
That building will not be missed. However, a replica of the substation could be recreated in the Transit Museum. If you are interested enough, you could create an accurate diorama, complete with labels and diagrams and historical notes. Such an exhibit could also include an explanation of how electricity is "stepped down" so schoolchildren can learn some applied science looking at the exhibit.
--Mark
Bill
You can't compare inanimate objects to human beings.
And finally; kids can be worse than adults.
1) The Brookfield Plan: Connect the LIRR to the Fulton Street line via Vanderbilt, routing very few LIRR trains to the brand new LIRR station at Atlantic Avenue. Route the C train through the Rutgers Tunnel, eliminating forever the possibility of a Culver Express.
2) The Metrolink Plan: extend the Second Avenue Subway through a new tunnel to Jamaica via the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch.
3) The Extended Super J plan: build a 3rd track on the Jamaica Line, extend it down Jamaica Avenue avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Run 12 express (Z) trains per hour in the peak direction with the following stops Jamaica, Cypress Hills (upper level), Broadway Junction, Myrtle, Marcy, Manhattan.
4) The Ashland Connection Variant: Do the above, but also hook the Montigue Tunnel tracks into the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch south of DeKalb. The 12 express (Z) trains would not only run from the lower level for bus transfers, but also run from the LIRR platform for LIRR riders, in a loop. You'd have 24 express tph from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn at peak.
5) The Bloomberg Variant: Bloomberg proposed a connection to LaGuardia as well. Drop the super J (#3), but build the Ashland Place to LIRR connection (#4) and the Astoria Line to LaGuardia. Ramp the W train up to 12 trains per hour running from Jamaica (Airtrain), down the LIRR to Downtown Brooklyn, through the Montigue Tunnel, up the Broadway Local, and out to LaGuardia.
That's the best plan, im not sure where LGA comes in except for the pre-existing N Train extension plan.
Anyhow, I believe the drawbacks Larry mentioned will ultimately kill the Brookfield proposal, and I believe a new East River tunnel will be rejected as too expensive. Also, the reality is that the Montague tunnel is under-utilized.
I wouldn't be shocked if the Super J were picked, but I consider it a half-measure, because it's only a one-way express. So that is not my favored option, but I believe it's the cheapest option out there, since all of the construction would be on elevated structures. (Brookfield, although billed as a low-cost alternative, actually requires quite a bit of tunneling.)
I don't recall Bloomberg ever making a proposal like #5, but in any event, I don't see it being chosen. The focus now is on express service to the two international airports. It's worth noting that the Ashland idea in its basic form doesn't preclude building the LaGuardia connection later.
For these reasons, #4 (the Ashland Connection variant) seems to me the best. I suspect it could be built for about the price of the Brookfield proposal, and maybe a bit less. And it doesn't hijack any existing lines, as Brookfield's does.
Ashland it is.
As I've asked before, why? It's an open question whether air travel will ever recover from its slump. Business travel is gradually being replaced by videoconferencing, and more and more leisure travelers are choosing to buy RV's rather than fly. Okay, these trends may not last forever, but then again they might.
Meantime, NYC has worse airport connections than many major cities. Some investment to improve the situation is justified. It's reasonable to ask how much is worth spending to achieve that. To say that air travel will never come back is not, IMO.
1) As we discussed back when this was first proposed, since the new LIRR trains into Manhattan would be sharing trackage with the A, they'd have to be built to subway standards. This would just move the transfer from Brooklyn to Jamaica (although, granted, some LIRR passengers already have to transfer at Jamaica just to get to Brooklyn). As an airport option it's no better than the A to Howard Beach.
2) Again, transfer at Jamaica.
3) Ditto.
4) This adds another option but I still don't see the tangible benefit.
5) Well, this gives us something new: direct subway service to LGA. But JFK and the LIRR are still only indirectly connected.
Pardon my skepticism, but I don't see the point (except for the LGA link). LIRR passengers already have a variety of easy connections to lower Manhattan. Depending on which option they choose, they may have to stand, but only for a few minutes. Those who prefer to sit can use the existing M and R trains. JFK-bound passengers have a two-seat ride already, via Howard Beach; there's no need for a second two-seat ride via Jamaica.
Yes, some of these people are nervous about riding the subway. That's no reason for us to spend lots and lots of money to duplicate what we already have in an attempt to make them feel more comfortable. If they want to pay for it themselves, fine, but if subway riders and city residents will be paying, then we should be paying for the solution to a real problem.
If you want to argue that these benefits do not justify a new $5 bn East River Tunnel, I'm with you. (Although I should hope that, if a new E.R. tunnel is built, it will be leveraged for other purposes.)
But if your argument is that there is no tangible benefit to providing faster service between two very popular destinations, I don't get it. There is always benefit when you can speed up transit. How much you're willing to spend to achieve that benefit is another matter.
And an express to Jamaica is also worth something for its own sake.
But LIRR riders already have that express to Jamaica (from Flatbush/Atlantic), and I doubt the existing A train takes much longer, if at all, to reach Howard Beach than any of the proposed new expresses will take to reach Jamaica.
All wonderful stuff, but I think Metrolink requires more capital spending than will realistically be possible--at least, not all at once.
It wouldn't provide a line to JFK. It would provide a line to a transfer point to JFK. But there already is a line from downtown to a transfer point to JFK: the A. Do we really need two different routes to JFK? Sure, it's great to have multiple options, but at what expense?
Unfortunately, that's the key. With Pataki & Friends leading the discussion, the goal of benefitting Lawn-Guy-Land-ers will actually be secondary to the greater goal of disbenefitting city residents (in both service and city finances).
Incidentally, there has been a subway (i.e., London Underground) link between Heathrow Airport and Central London for decades. That's better than NYC has, but subways have a lot of starts and stops. It's a long trip, and the train cars don't easily accommodate luggage. At many of the stops, there are a lot of steps, and it is very hard to get luggage out of the station.
So they built another connection, the Heathrow Express, which takes you from Heathrow to Central London in 15 minutes, no intermediate stops. London has its share of transit problems, but this is an example of a city recognizing the economic value of smooth, fast airport connections, and doing something about it. London has fast one-seat rides from three major airports (Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted) into the city center; NYC has none.
And of course, everyone who lives in a city derives the economic benefit of the city remaining competitive (airport access being a determinant of competitiveness)--even if they themselves never use the airports.
So they built another connection, the Heathrow Express, which takes you from Heathrow to Central London in 15 minutes, no intermediate stops. London has its share of transit problems, but this is an example of a city recognizing the economic value of smooth, fast airport connections, and doing something about it. London has fast one-seat rides from three major airports (Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted) into the city center; NYC has none."
Thanks, oakapple, for these nice things you say about the UK! It always surprises me that there are people on this board who argue that rail access to NYC's airports is unnecessary. If so, there are an awful lot of other major cities around the world that have got things wrong!
The tube to Heathrow celebrated its 25 years last December. (I was on the first public train in, in December 1977.) My observation is that Piccadilly Line trains usually leave Heathrow about half full of seated passengers, which considering that they run about 15-20 tph is a pretty good loading. It's a mix of airline passengers and airport employees - Heathrow is the second largest employment centre in London after the CBD. I don't know how well the Heathrow Express loads since i don't uses it - it is a good service but it is expensive, and calling Paddington "Central London" is stretching things a bit, it is in the extreme northwestern corner of the centre. It might be better, ironically, if it *did* make one intermediate stop - at Ealing Broadway, which would give it a lot of useful connections. Similarly, the Stansted Express goes to Liverpool Street, which isn't the most convenient central London location; a lot of passengers change at Tottenham Hale on to the Victoria Line to reach the West End. Gatwick Airport station has a lot of direct train services to places other than London, as well as the non-stop Gatwick Express to Victoria station, and slower but cheaper services to central London run by the suburban train operators.
London actually has two more airports - Luton Airport has a station (opened a couple of years ago) though it is really a kind of Howard Beach arrangement, with a free shuttle bus from the station to the airport terminal. Also well used by staff and passengers, in my obsevation. London City Airport currently has a (non-free) bus from Canning Town (tube and Docklands LR) station, but the Docklands Light Railway is being extended to the airport and will get there in a couple of years time.
Elsewhere in the UK, Birmingham airport had a maglev shuttle from the airport terminal to the train station; that stopped working some years ago and so a free bus shuttle has operated, but the train shuttle is about to reopen using more conventional technology, not maglev. Manchester Airport has trains, direct from various other places as well as Manchester. Newcastle Airport is served by the Tyne and Wear Metro; it is the outer terminal of one of the lines. Southampton Airport has a train station with (allegedly) the shortest walk from the train platforms to the airline gates of any airport. Teesside Airport has a train station but I've never been there, so I don't know what the arrangements are like there.
"Fast one seat rides" from airports to CBDs are really a bit of a hopeless case, however, unless both the airport and the city are small (in which case the rail link wouldn't be justified anyway!). If the airport is large, passengers with their luggage need some kind of assistance to reach the train station. Gatwick, for example has an internal transit between the terminals which is separate from the railway system, so if you fly in to the North Terminal you are on a two-seat ride already. From Heathrow Terminals 1 and 2 it is a fair hike (assisted by moving pavements) to the Heathrow Express station which is actaully located at terminal 3; the reverse is true to reach the Terminals 1,2,3 tube station from terminal 3, since the tube station is near terminals 1 & 2. Stansted has an internal transit on the airside of passport control, between the main terminal building (where the train station is) and the gates. And then, of course, the CBD of big cities isn't all in one place either, so you will probably need some other form of transport to get from your fast airport train to your real final destination in the city.
Saying LIRR riders can always transfer at Flatbush and Atlantic is like saying the Second Avenue isn't needed because Upper East Side residents can take the Lex. Like the Lex, the IRT at Flatbush and Atlantic is already jammed by the time the Long Islanders get on it. Unlike Upper East Siders, they already have had a long commute. So I'm prepared to say they deserve a better ride, if one can be had affordably.
Now, Mr. Bauman has pointed out that the J/Z could be turned at 9th Avenue (at the cost of running a few more trains vs. a savings in construction), the LIRR riders could use the new, better passageway to get to Pacific Street.
That's not as good, however, as having an empty train in the LIRR Jamaica terimnal that one can transfer to across the platform. We're trying to provide here is at least the service that PATH riders get when they arrive at Hoboken and Newark by train.
PATH is funded independently of the subway, and PATH's primary function, AFAICT, is as a link from NJT to Manhattan. What happens on PATH doesn't affect subway riders. What happens on the LIRR does, especially for the proposals that fiddle with subway tracks and subway service.
More than that is required. You'd still have a three-in-one merge outbound, and you'd need new switches inbound. There is an active effort to identify and remove bottlenecks on the IRT. This is one of them.
Moreover, as I've said, I think IRT ridership is depressed by crowding -- people who would rather take the IRT take other trains, or other modes, to avoid it. It occupies all the best spots. Thus, I expect any new IRT capacity to be absorbed, unless something comes along that can attract away a lot of riders. Ie. a brand new Second Avenue Subway, and an express ride from a cross-platform transfer at Jamaica direct to Lower Manhattan.
Inbound all the necessary switches seem to be in place.
Removing the 5 from the Nostrand branch would push a handful of riders to the Brighton line, but most would take the 2 and transfer at Franklin to the 4/5 (as most of them do already if a 2 shows up first).
I used to think this plan was the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but it is a bit interesting. The fact is that this is actually a subway takeover of the LIRR Flatbush line, not a LIRR takover of the Cranberry tunnel. The truth is that the service would have to use subway cars. The LIRR could not run through the Cranberry Tunnel. I was against it when I thought the LIRR would be taking over the Cranberry tube, and the Fulton line would then become banished from it, and totally screwed. But if the capacity exists (I don't know), this actually becomes an expansion of the subway system. Brooklyn would have a high spead express route, with stops at East New York and Nostrand. The LIRR almost runs a "subway-like" service on the line already.
The sticking points:
-Yes, the transfer would be moved to Jamaica from Brooklyn.
-I would hope the service would become consolodated with the subway system, thus the same fare as the subway - that may be asking too much.
-It would have to work with existing capacity on the Fulton Line. I don't want the A or C riders to get screwed. Would there be room for the new service in the Cranberry tube?
The new service cannot be accommodated without disrupting existing service. The Brookfield plan calls for rerouting the C through the Rutgers St tunnel, where it would rejoin its original route at West 4th. One politician fittingly called this "Grand Theft Subway." The number of C riders destined for Lower Manhattan exceeds, by a comfortable margin, the number of riders the new service would attract. All of these riders would need to transfer to the A (an already packed route), or reach Lower Manhattan by the circuitous route of traveling to West 4th and then catching a downtown train (UGH!). As part of their plan, Brookfield proposed changing the V's terminal to WTC, which I believe would create unacceptable merge constraints south of West 4th. All in all, I think it's a terrible plan.
Or switch all locals at W4 (alleviating the merging issues). Send the V to WTC (replacing the E), the F to Euclid (replacing the C), the C to Culver (replacing the F), and the E to Jamaica via LIRR superexpress. That's right -- the E would make a giant loop.
Connect the LIRR Brooklyn tracks to the Montague tunnel without making any changes to the current J/M/Z. There is virtually no scenario, not even total disintegration of the MB*, that would make the Montague so full it couldn't handle the load.
This might require some messy work right near Flatbush and Atlantic but has the advantage of being very localized.
*With no MB, much of the diverted crowd would still avoid the Montague if they could and try to take the F or 2/3/4/5 to midtown. And the long term solution if the bridge was unfixable would be a Rutgers-Dakalb connection, not constantly feeding all those peopel through the Montague.
(*With no MB, much of the diverted crowd would still avoid the Montague if they could and try to take the F or 2/3/4/5 to
midtown. And the long term solution if the bridge was unfixable would be a Rutgers-Dakalb connection, not constantly feeding
all those peopel through the Montague.)
I agree. Hence I'm willing to suggest this connection, despite my concerns about he Manny B. Brooklyn has plenty of capacity to Downtown. A replacement tunnel to Midtown would be far easier to build, if needed, then trying to squeeze more tracks into Lower Manhattan.
You would still need to make a change to the JMZ. You'd have to run the J/Z through to Atlantic.
Hey guys, does anybody else not realize the other benefit of this line? IT WILL REDUCE CROWDING ON QUEENS BLVD! A whole new tunnel with limited stops, connections to the growing downtown brooklyn commercial sector, and people from outer queens will be able to use the 2nd av line directly. Since these trains could likely reach high speed, it would also be the fastest way for these people to get to downtown manhattan. I say build this line, and link it into Hillside. Heck, even EXTEND the Hillside line too!
Sometimes, it pays to look at the extra benefits!
But then I never saw how they couple Q cars when lower Mytle Ave el was running.
If the couplers on the two cars don't line up, the low coupler can be boosted up. On streetcars, a switch iron held by two men can boost the coupler up. A long switch iron is used so the men don't have to stand between the two cars bumpers. On El cars a long iron bar was used to give the length.
Please understand that coupling moves are always done at low speed.
The hook will allow automatic coupling. The link is inserted in the live car's coupler with the hook end facing out. A pin is inserted in the car's coupler in the regular point. As the live car is moved, the hook will grab the pin as the coupler faces touch. This method does not give a secure hold on the pin and is not recommended.
There were two types of link-and-pin "Van Dorn" couplers:
manual and automatic. The link on the manual variety was
rectangular with two holes, slightly elongated, to receive
the pins. The automatic coupler used a link with a hook on
either end which is caught and retained by a spring latch
mechanism face.
Either way, you start by inserting the link into the coupler
of the car which is moving. The stationary car is secured
against movement by having the brakes applied in emergency,
handbrakes or chocks. You bring the cars near each other,
swing the couplers by hand so they will line up, then inch
forward until the link enters the other coupler. With
the automatic, the link will retain in the latch. For manual,
go part way in, drop the other pin into the top slot, then
inch up until the pin drops in and seats fully. This phase
sometimes requires an assistant to stand on the platform and
lean over, banging or otherwise jostling the pin.
Once coupled, do a stretch test by taking a quick shot of power
in reverse. Hopefully the coupling holds (this is a real issue
with the automatics as the springs sometimes fail). Now,
set the brakes in emergency and go between the cars. Couple
the brake pipe and main reservoir pipe "glad hand" hoses.
Install the electric jumpers for MU control, door control,
heat&light busline, etc. Attach the safety hook and chains (in
case the coupler fails). Attach the passenger safety chains
between the cars. Open both angle cocks on each car.
Charge up and do a standing brake test.
Van Dorns are not "finger busters" like regular Link & Pin couplers. You don't have to hold the link.
Now, Face Phildelphia (or St. Louis), bow three times and give honour.
At IRM, the wooden CA&E cars use Van Dorn couplers. They can be pretty annoying at times. The most hazardous part of coupling is actually uncoupling - usually you have to reach down and pull the pin yourself while the motorman bumps the car. We invented a device to automatically do this, basically a large spring with a hook at each end. One end goes over a grab-iron on the car end and the other goes through the pin chain; when the motorman bumps the car, the pin magically flies out of the hole! ...it hasn't been patented yet...
Frank Hicks
We don't use the Van Dorns in semi-automatic mode (with the
hook-shaped link pin) because they are prone to accidental
uncoupling.
Baltimore even had compromise couplers on the Witts and PCC's. One end went in the drawbar socket, the other end is a Van Dorn head. The 5800's (which had Tomlinsons) carried a conversion head.
At BSM, everything except the Witt and the PCC's have Van Dorns.
We've even dragged a 19 ton Witt with a little 9 ton single trucker - using Van Dorns, and the Witt was pulled (and pushed) from 26th Street to the pit. Oh, hum. Another day on the car line.
Ok, I know you're brain is on the fritz and all, but do you remember that big place called the World Trade Center. Do you just happen to remember that HUGE MALL under it where Hudson Terminal used to be? Now maybe you can answer your own question.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
They would serve seriously huge buildings!
---Choo Choo
And ALL the way to the right is of course the original tube heading into Hudson Terminal. There would be another one all the way to the left but the basements of the WTC were still present in that area.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
(The knee injury was rail related too. Slipped and fell while crossing the tracks at the Dover NJ NJT station; my knee came down right on the railhead. Hurt like hell for a couple days.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
To actually answer your question, all those passageways were reconstructed as part of the building of 4 and 5 WTC.
They still survive in the reconstructed form; they were NOT demolished after the collapse of the towers. They are possibly being reconstructed again now as part of the access from the temporary PATH station to Church St.
Railfans are Terrorists
Absolutely correct! And if you were a child you'd be right. However, as an adult, you must be aware of the difference between right and wrong. IF the railroad says "No unauthorized photography" on its property, then the police must enforce the law. However, they cannot selectively enforce it. If the police will stop photography by a bearded middle-eastern man then it has to enforce the law equally for a blond, blue-eyed man with a child. To do otherwise would leave the police and the RR open to discrimination charges. Beingf an adult, I'm sure you can see that.
Now as long as we're on the subject. Why is it okay to forbid photography of nuclear facilitie and not railroads? Isn't that unfair to reactor buffs. Remember when you could park on the roof of the Pan Am terminal at JFK and watch planes up close. Bet you couldn't do that today - even if there was a pan am terminal. Doesn't that violate the rights of plane buffs? Can't photograph on any of the major bridges. Does that violate the rights of bridge buffs. Shit, let's close all of the railroads, all of the nuclear facilities, the airports and bridges so we can allow the buffs of the world to do as they please and screw the 99.9% of the population who use these facilities for their intended, legitimate purposes.
Sadly, no US railroad or transit property has in it's mission statement, anything remotely related to appeasing train buffs. Most have mission statements such as: To provide excellence in rail transit for the people of Whateverville.etc etc etc
Rail systems primary objective is to move people and equipment safely. If safety concerns dictate that the RR management must ban photography, then photography is banned. It's up to the police to enforce the laws equitably. It is definitely not up to the police to subjectively enforce or not enforce the rules.
As for pre-9/11 and post-9/11, it's not only the railroads that changed their rules. Pre 9/11 you could drive into NYC solo over any of the city bridges. After 9/22 you needed three in the car. Shit happens and things change as a result. Get over it.
Where does the MTA say no photography from LIRR platforms? For trespassing style crimes (as opposed, say, to murder), there is a burden on the property owner or local authority to make the rules clear through posters or some kind of public notices that a reasonably diligent person would see.
Don't forget Bill "Newkirk" !
Bill "Newkirk"
I think I've covered my supposed employment in a previous posting. No further comment is needed. Now, if you look carefully, you may find photos that I've taken, posted right here, on subtalk. I'm not anti-photography nor am I anti-railfan. However, following recent world events, the rules have changed. I'm adult enough to know that there are concerns that supercede my personal interests. The police officer in the original posting in this thread may have been correct or he may not have( depending on the interpretation of the MTA's policy) however, I think the use of the word "harassment" is childish and then relating it to the outlandish idea that the police were not pursuing murderers and rapists because they were hunting photographers is a perversion of the truth and an irresponsible comment. That's what I objected to.
I do believe, with or without 9/11 safeguards in place, that a cop has EVERY right to protect MTA property by asking for ID to anyone who is taking pictures at such. Only as long as these pictures are for that person's personal and non-commercial use (including downloading on the internet and email), and these pics, cannot be sold as such, and the person taking them is aware of what is going on, then the discussion between the officer and the person should be in an amibicle manner WITHOUT any threat of arrest or summons for taking pictures on public property.
If only police officers would be more senesitive to the average working class Joe and his hobby of professional photography maybe this subject would be a moot point.
Actually, for quite a while, he has been nasty to those who don't support his own opinion, and before that, he shared the common belief around here that having knowledge is a good reason to put others down. He has a wealth of information, but sometimes, its not worth it.
Train Dude owes us folks nothing but has given much.
There are also a lot of bs laws around, which are unfair. For example the law requiring all men of Arab descent older than 18 to register with the gov't (it may be all those who are immigrants, but still). It's a law, and it's an unfair one. Simliarly, this law does infringe on the rights of people, seeing as the MTA's platforms are public property. So if it is a law, it could be a very unfair one, much like the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII.
No need to become nasty about it....
Maybe not nuclear technology, but unteathered concrete blocks moving about the car on curves !
Bill "Newkirk"
Remember that in this case the railroad in question has no such rule. However, I agree that there is no constitutional issue here, just an issue of the stupidity of an individual police officer.
The law has NOT changed, therefore anyone ordering me not to take pictures is violating my rights under current law.
Personally I would prefer if they go back to issuing permits - at least we could flash the permit to an overzealous cop !!
So I see you agree the police officer in Medford acted incorrectly. He followed the first part of MTA policy (investigating) and forgot to follow the implicit second part of the policy (if your investigation establishes that the photographers are innocent, there is no law to tell them to stop photographing).
Or do you think that police officers have a right to order people to desist from legal activities?
I will tell you this. 2 weeks ago, we were in PA. for the TCA meet. My friend, Mike, was staying up near Harrisburg while I was staying near Lancaster. As railroading has a large presence in PA, we both did some railfanning. Mike was taking pictures along the Nofolk Southern ROW and was approached by police. He identified himself, explained what he was doing there and was left in peace to enjoy himself. I also did some railfan photography. I was never stopped or questioned.
The point is, the MTA is exercising its perogative to have police check all reported instances of photography on railroad property. This is their right. I would be hard pressed to believe that a Suffolk County Police Officer would come across a father & son photographing freight movement and took it upon himself to make their day miserable. Hard to believe that he would do this, unprovoked.
Perhaps the man felt that he was under no obligation to identify himself. Perhaps he came off as a wise ass. Perhaps he told the officer to "F#@K Off". I just don't believe the story on its face. The experiences I've had and the stories I've heard from others simply do not support this one account.
You know in the server world there's a name for people like you, a LEECH.*** When I railfan I put my self out on the line so that other railfans don't have to go through the hassle of finding out everything for themselves and because I enjoy it when other railfans post images of things I enjoy. To not take pictures is one thing, but to have you reason be that you find it easier to leech off those of hard working railfans is really selfish.
BTW, while some people (like TRAINS Magizine) was implied that Railfanning is un-American, I find it truely Un-American when someone is intimidated by the powers that be to willingly give up one of their lawful FREEDOMS. You should take Railfan Photos BECAUSE people are out there to harrass you.
***Please don't think my existing dislike of you has inspired this comment, I'd have said it to anyone to was a proponent of taking with out giving back.
The level of honesty on this board is admirable.
Had anyone said that they had stopped taking railfan photos simply because it was easier to get high quality photos online I would have called them a LEECH.
It never ceases to amaze me that you have so much insight about everything except your particular dilema. If you put as much effort into working through some of your problems as you do in finding injustices being perpetrated against others, you'd be far happier.
Happy?
Now when the owner is a public entity, we have the ability to convey our feelings about how such property is run by contacting our elected leaders, who (at least in theory) ultimately determine what is and what is not allowed on such property.
There are incompetent people in all jobs; the police are no exception.
What I suspect is that the incompetent and/or sadistic cops now have free rein to do as they please, because now they're "heros" and beyond criticism.
And what about all the homosexual Democrats? Why can't we vote for them?
A GAY PRESIDENT IN 2084!
Instead of harrassing a father and son enjoying trainwatching, why don't they patrol around places like Forest Hills, St. Albans and Locust Manor, by Rochdale Village, where the locals trespass OFTEN, and the trespassers there OFTEN either play chicken, throw stones, or most common, vandalize wayside equipment, stations and signals with their crappy "so-called" tags, and while having a complete description from the engineer, they frequently and commonly get away. Let's get serious, now.......priorities are way off!!
Eyewitness news had a story today how you can stock up now on LIRR and MNRR tickets. According to the reporter, an MNRR official said it was "a good idea." So stock up now. The 10 ride tickets are good for a year (if you use them you probably already know), so you can stock up for the next year.
NYC subway riders, rest assured that while the MTA is giving the LIRR and MNRR riders an unofficial break, that you're getting your fair share of getting screwed.
If you ride daily, sure. If you ride frequently but not daily, then stock up on those 10-trips! I did earlier today.
Mark
How can you even compare the two? LIRR riders getting WHAT break?
>NYC subway riders, rest assured that
>while the MTA is giving the LIRR and
>MNRR riders an unofficial break, that
> you're getting your fair share of getting screwed.
Another Before and After, a bit of a sadder ending though...
3751 F
5936 F (T?)
You made my day ;-) Wish I could have taken a picture of that...
On the R46 signs you'll find "W: to QNSBORO PLAZA" and related when the R46s never ran on the W (they were there with the old program too so they existed before the W did).
Yeah. Recent SAS SDEIS documents recently released to the public byt the MTA have a subway map showing the SAS constructed...with a (T) bullet in a sky-blue color.
like this in these scenario
Shift the M to Brighton, Sea beach, or Bay Ridge. OR Cut M back to Chamber or Broad in rush hours. T replaces M in brooklyn. W remain in Whitehall.
OR
T replaces W between Astoria and whitehall while W is disgarded
"F To 179 St, Queens, via Crosstown"
Thank you so much again Bill
---Choo Choo
That is most likey where they will turn up
Yeah, in the scrubber room :) But seriously, this sucks :(
In this day and age it is crazy for there to not be
What security failure allowed this to happen? If all of this stuff, even just the roll signs alone, could be smuggled out, can you imagine what could be snuck in? I think more attention needs to be paid to people and vehicles entering and leaving closed places such as the various yards as opposed to chasing camera wielding ne'r-do-wells on subway platforms.
-Robert King
Also... MANY people on this board are both employees and railfans...... I never said it was not an employee. I said railfan because employees are railfans too... It could be anyone......
"Mark, this situation could get ugly......you always have those who feel they are bieng pointed at. But, the situation is this: irreplaceable subway artifacts were STOLEN......SOMEONE BROKE THE LAW! I hope the stolen items will be returned. Again, much luck"
Again, I am not point fingers at anyone... So please, Don't let this turn into a war. All I want it the stuff returned.......
---Choo Choo
Or woman/women, transseexual person(s), person(s) with indeterminate gender, space alien(s) etc... all in the name of political correctness. I say hang the bugger - there, a non-controversial word.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's what I said. Also, it had to be an employee with ID to gain access with his car/truck.
Bill "Newkirk"
WHOEVER THE FUCKHEAD STOLE THESE PRICELESS ARTIFACTS, FOR YOUR OWN GOOD (AND TO PROTECT YOU FUTURE FROM A POSSIBLE CRIMINAL RECORD), I THINK STRONGLY YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM UP AND BRING THEM BACK WHERE THEY BELONG. ANOTHER POST READS THAT YOU CAN BRING THEM BACK TO THE GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT WITHOUT QUESTIONS OR ANYTHING ELSE ADVERSE AGAINST YOU. IF YOU TRY EBAY OR ANYTHING ELSE, YOU WILL GET CAUGHT, AND YOU WILL PAY, BIG TIME. AND IT WILL NOT JUST BE THE POLICE BUT THE GOOD LORD WILL ALSO CATCH YOU TOO, AND HE WILL HAVE A SURPRISE FOR YOU TOO, STRAIGHT TO HELL. BETTER THINK ABOUT IT AND DO IT FOR GOOD OF YOURSELF, AND EVERY DECENT, HARDWORKING MTA EMPLOYEE AND RAILFANNER (even those railfanners who are retired or don't work for the MTA.) ON THIS BOARD. YOU NOW GAVE NYPD MORE AMMO. TO GO AFTER US JUST FOR TAKING PICTURES YOU DICKHEAD.
If you choose to ignore these words and you get caught, I will see to it that this posted gets printed and is personally mailed or delivered to you while you get you ass f*****d at Rikers Island. If you do the right thing in time, them I and everyone else will applaud you for making a great move to save yourself.
E.D.? Isn't that what all the spam is about? Bob Dole's little blue pill, that stuff? Heh.
no, I wouldn't applaud a thief, even if they turned in the stuff they stole. I do agree with everything else you said, though.
I am still hoping for a satisfactory conclusion on this very sad incident. For the sake of everyone to stand together, please keep an eye out for any unusual number of rollsigns, or several recent submissions of similiar nature showing up within a 24 hour span on eBay.
I don't think there is any question that you are not alone in this, it's just your choice of words that we take exception to.
Some of these items are irreplaceable and if they had been removed from one of the cars there for safe keeping, THAT would be even sadder !
The more you get involved with a museum the more value you put in keeping the parts of the history intact, so they can be preserved & shown to future generations.
[I]If you choose to ignore these words and you get caught, I will see to it that this posted gets printed and is personally mailed or delivered to you while you get you ass f*****d at Rikers Island. If you do the right thing in time, them I and everyone else will applaud you for making a great move to save yourself.[/I]
A little extreme don't ya think ;-). A thief shouldn't have applause BUT he/she will be doing the right thing at least if they return the stolen stuff.
It is also sad that our current NY State Penal code is a running joke. Why? Because if it happened in NJ or CT you will do 15 years for the theft, but in NY State, you will be lucky to see 4 years in prison and in most instances you will be on parole after serving the first year.
Anyone who has amassed 3 felony convictions (5 convictions for drug possesion) in their lifetime should spend their rest of their natural lives behind bars, PERIOD! As we all know, the bleeding heart liberal State Assembly and numerous polictians will not go for that.
#3 West End Jeff
Hopefully it was just some moron looking to pawn priceless items. I just say that because I want to see railfans cleared of this.
And of course the moron will try to sell on ebay. As been proved in the past (WTC, Columbia) the moron thinks of profit and they won't get caught there.
Dont the CIY museum cars have locked storm doors?
Did anyone sight anyone having 'wee too much dwell time'
in the YARD whilst attending the CI RODEO just 3 weeks back??
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
What was this address?------55 Sullivan Place
You could always tell him, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
I got a kick out of Pee Wee checking out his old house in Bay Ridge during that series about the Dodgers. There was a clip of Duke Snider in front of his old house on another program.