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On April 1, one month from now, the TA might likey raise cash fares to $2. Get ready!!
"On April 1, one month from now, the TA might likey raise cash fares to $2. Get ready!!"
On April Fool's Day no less !
Bill "Newkirk"
It's also when the state budget is due (not to worry, it hasn't been on time in 19 years) ... something MIGHTY appropriate about our lawgivers picking April fool's day as "action and result day" dontcha think? :)
Anyone who thinks the budget will be finalized by April 1st is a fool. The last 16 or so years the budget has always been late.
Jeez that sux.
And will the NYCDOT Buses close their operations on 4-1-2003? Will the MTA take them over?
Also NYCDOT Buses Express Fare will be 4 bucks.
Geez!!!
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
I might have fill up my student pass.
Also the private busses will be following suit quicker they claim. And getting rid of the off peak discounts. Looks like everyone's out to screw the working man...
That's pretty coincidal with NJT's fare hike proposal implied on April 1, 2002. I hope these fares last another 10 years as did the old fares. NJT is slowly sneaking away mounds of cents which really added up over the months. A $1.25 increase in RT tickets from Metuchen to New York will really get you over time.
I remember back when I was in 2nd grade when the subway fare was $1.25. Could anyone tell me what the fare was before that and the date it lasted from? Also when did this fare get to $1.50?
before 1948: 5¢
1948: 10¢
1953: 15¢
1966: 20¢
1970: 30¢
1972: 35¢
1975: 50¢
1980: 60¢
1981: 75¢
1983: 90¢
1986: $1.00
1990: $1.15
1992: $1.25
1995: $1.50
2003: $2.00
There is a list at http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/tokens/, but it isn't linked to in the FAQ.
It does have an error, where it shows the NYC token was part of a $1 fare from 1984 to 1986. This makes no sense. The fare went up to $1 in 1986 with the bullseye introduction. No transit agency changes the token without hiking the fare simultaneously.
Many years ago, I e-mailed Jason R. DeCesare about this, and he made a snide response that I should go to the big library on 42nd Street and do research. Well, I don't have to go to a library to look up Times archives from the 1980s:
While the quality of service on New York City's subways and buses may not be rising noticeably, beginning Jan. 1 the price of a ride will increase. After weeks of hearings, occasional demonstrations and almost nonstop finger-pointing, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority on Friday formally raised the price of a bus and subway token to $1. Fares on the authority's commuter railroad lines will also increase, by 11 percent, and tolls on many bridges and tunnels will go from $1.50 to $1.75.
The increases were all but inevitable. The Transit Authority had faced an operating deficit estimated at $225 million next year, and the Long Island Rail Road and the Metro-North Commuter Railroad had projected their deficits at a total of $42 million. By law, the M.T.A., the rail lines' parent body, must approve a balanced budget by the end of the year.
The only alternative to a fare hike was additional financial support from Albany, but Governor Cuomo and legislative leaders said two weeks ago that they would not act to prevent an increase. With the Governor's approval, the Legislature saved the fare last year by extending a corporate tax surcharge that helps subsidize mass transit. When they renewed the tax last December, legislators and Mr. Cuomo indicated that it would probably keep the fare stable only through 1985.
Yesterday, the Governor and Felix G. Rohatyn, chairman of the Municipal Assistance Corporation, said they feared the mass transit system was heading toward a long-term financial crisis. They proposed setting aside $1 billion in surplus M.A.C. money to meet huge transit operating deficits anticipated in the future.1
1Mary Connelly and Alan Finder. "The Rising Price Underground," New York Times 15 Dec. 1985, late ed., sec. 4: 2.
"No transit agency changes the token without hiking the fare simultaneously"
I respectfully beg to differ. The TA DID change the token in 1979 as part of its Diamond Jubilee Year. No fare increase in 1979...
Those were limited edition tokens. I've no idea what they're worth to collectors.
But the existing token remained in use, nobody had to buy any new tokens.
That's true, the Y-cut out token was still valid. I just wanted to point out that transit agencies don't always do what folks expect of them. But you make a good counterpoint.
Here's an abstract of an article in the October 13, 1979 NY Times:
NYC Transit Authority begins circulating new subway tokens commemorating 75th anniversary of subway system. Tokens may prove to be financial bonanza for city because people are expected to keep them as souvenirs. City plans to make special nickel and silver versions cast specifically as souvenirs and will receive $12 commission on each solid gold version that jeweler H Stern intends to sell for $250 each. Design was executed free by Bill Bonnell of J C Penney Company (S).
Well, they were certainly right about souvenirs. I have had a couple of 'em since 1979 and they are among my "treasured talismans of the past". I wonder if the TA will have a Centennial MetroCard next year?
It won't be the same as that Diamond Jubilee token. :-(
Further research shows that the fare went to 90¢ in 1984, not 1983.
The following table gives a little more information. The last column is the % increase divided by the number of years at the old rate, indicating the annual rate of increase over the last fare rate.
From:To:YearsFareIncrease% Increase% Increase / years
1904 1948 44 $0.05
1948 1953 5 $0.10 $0.05 100.00%2.27%
1953 1966 13 $0.15 $0.05 50.00%10.00%
1966 1970 4 $0.20 $0.05 33.33%2.56%
1970 1972 2 $0.30 $0.10 50.00%12.50%
1972 1975 3 $0.35 $0.05 16.67%8.33%
1975 1980 5 $0.50 $0.15 42.86%14.29%
1980 1981 1 $0.60 $0.10 20.00%4.00%
1981 1984 3 $0.75 $0.15 25.00%25.00%
1984 1986 2 $0.90 $0.15 20.00%6.67%
1986 1990 4 $1.00 $0.10 11.11%5.56%
1990 1992 2 $1.15 $0.15 15.00%3.75%
1992 1995 3 $1.25 $0.10 8.70%4.35%
1995 2003 8 $1.50 $0.25 20.00%6.67%
2003 $2.00 $0.50 33.33%4.17%
Tom
Don't forget the introduction of the token @ 15 cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC there were 2 tokens at 15 cents. The first one was the same size as the token you're familiar with. But the Y was filled in. Unfortunately there were a number of cheap coins that were the same size.
I found this pie chart the BMT published in 1936 showing their operating costs as a percentage of the nickel fare. Wonder what the percentages look like today?
For the year ended December 31, 2000, NYCT's figures were as follows (source: MTA 2001 annual report):
(dollars in millions; totals may not add due to rounding)
Salaries & wages: $2,204 (52.8%)
Retirement & other employee benefits: $577 (13.8%)
Materials & supplies: $242 (5.8%)
Fuel & power: $183 (4.4%)
Computer, engineering, & other consulting services: $166 (4.0%)
Public liability & claims: $82 (2.0%)
Depreciation & amortization: $655 (15.7%)
Other expenses: $66 (1.6%)
TOTAL: $4,175
David
Has it been decided yet if the expiration dates printed on the backs of MetroCards will be honored? It doesn't matter for pay-per-rides, but what about unlimiteds purchased at the old prices? (In other words, do I stock up on Fun Passes now?)
I'd stock up on 30 day cards. If anything it'll keep me off the booth lines when all hell breaks loose. (no joke).
Considering TA has kept using the current token the last time the fare went up, chances are the 1, 7 and 30 day Unlimited Metrocards will still be good as well. Their website won't say that. But I think it'll probably happen. TA might bring out packs of mystery preencoded metrocards out to the booths if they feel people are hoarding them.
The only problem with your plan is that the cost of weekly and monthly cards is not going up that much. The montly card is only going up a mere $3.
You are not saving anything and you increase the likleyhood that if you loose, accidently use a secound card etc, you will be ending out way behind. In adddion you are doing the MTA a favor by loaning them extra money up front and not using the service immediatly.
I think the 7 day card you buy now for $17 will work after the same card sells for $21 ($22?) after the fare goes up. Of course if one stockpiles the cards now, they keep them in a safe place until the fare goes up.
I've never used a 30-day card. I've only used three 7-day cards. I use Fun Passes very often, and the proposed Fun Pass hike is 75%, far more than any of the other cards.
The final price hasn't been agreed on yet. Not that any of us agree.
I have about 2 or 3 FunPasses sitting around. How will that work after the fare hike? Anyone know the new price FunPasses will be?
Probably the official word about fare hikes will be made on a late friday afternoon after 5 PM. All agents will be instructed to sell no more than 2 tokens per person. Also every booth will have 2 or 3 bags of "Mystery" tokens with instruction DO NOT OPEN UNTIL TOLD TO. One of the turnstiles will be closed at every booth and altered to accept a different size token.
What are we to do if customers ask if they can redeem their old $1.50 tokens?
-Stef
If we use the same tokens, tell them the token is still good on the subway.
If a new token is used, the old token and 50 cents will get them a new token.
No matter what we still don't redeme tokens.
I see. In other words, we'll send take the old tokens for a certain amount of time and send them down to Jay St to be scrapped.
-Stef
Assuming a new token comes out, we sell the new token and the old tokens get bagged and tagged as "old tokens". Chances are we'll have the same tokens again.
And I think tokens will be discontinued in the subway. But it likely be done at a later time. People are going to be VERY PO'ed waiting on line that first Monday morning. Tell them that tokens are no longer in use, there will be mini riots.
I might be inclined to agree with you. Token elimination could be a gradual process if it's done at all. There are those die hard token users out there who don't want to use Metros.
It's alot like weaning a child off its mother's milk. They can't get enough of it. LOL!
-Stef
I can imagine American Pig or someone else saying something like:
"Just wean them off the milk cold turkey.
It will be hard at first.
But later on they'll get used to it."
voiceofreason says the same thing. More or less.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=455420
I can imagine American Pig or someone else saying something like:
"Just wean them off the milk cold turkey.
It will be hard at first.
But later on they'll get used to it."
While our porcine pal undoubtely would think that way, those are my thoughts too.
By the way, "wean them off the milk cold turkey" is getting perilously close to mixed metaphor territory :)
"I can imagine American Pig or someone else...."
I guess you're that "someone else" >g<
Do you know a better way I could have phrased that?
Nobody's being weaned off of anything cold turkey.
The token has not been the only way to use the subway in many places for 9 years. It has not been the only way to use the subway for 6 years. The MTA has offered free transfers, discounts, unlimited rides, the ability to pay with credit or debit cards, even something as simple as getting a receipt that couldn't be done with the token.
If these people are still suckling on their mother's teat after all of this gradual weaning, it's time to rip them from her breast once and for all. This is not cold turkey, not at all.
What kind of gradual weaning do you propose? Every single thing was done to encourage people not to use the token, the only thing left to do is to stop allowing the token. What should we have first? Only one turnstile per station accepting tokens? Only some stations accepting tokens? Please. If we had it your way, we'd still have ticket choppers in every station, and you would claim that their removal would lead to a revolt. You would be wrong in that case, you are wrong now.
There will be no new token and no token in general with any fare hike. read the MTA's Fare policy Presentation. slide 51. No metion of new token. Why would there be a riot. Almost no one uses tokens anymore and hoarding tokens will end up costing many riders more because token are at
A. full price $1.50 vs. $1.36 for metrocard with discount. Post far hike proce $1.70
B. Many people use bus to trains metrocard transfer which tokens don't provide
The few foolish die hards who have been paying more to use the antiquated tokens hardly makes a riot
"Fare Change Challenges
Implementation Considerations (continued)
•Some of the core implementation tasks include:
•AFC software migration and testing
•Modification, testing and downloading of fare media tables
•EPROM software chip production and system-wide installation in station devices and bus fareboxes
•Modify and test Accounting System and Fare Reporting System
•Adjustments to MetroCard High-Production Encoding and Ticket Stock Management & Inventory Operations
•Manage MetroCard inventory in 3,000 Retail Merchants including coordinating with fulfillment vendor
•Coordinate with TransitCenter regarding the MetroCard and Premium MetroCard program •Coordinate with MNR and LIRR on joint Tickets and Mail & Ride program •Prepare necessary updates to Reduced Fare materials and coordinate with Reduced Fare Mail & Ride vendor
Just wondering, do you live in NYC?
If your answer is YES
No matter how you explain it
some New Yorkers will not give up the token.
Some old habits are hard to break.
-Stef
Some people think otherwise.
Nope, this is easy to break: Stop accepting tokens. They can continue to play with them and be aroused by them, if that's what pushes their buttons, but the MTA will no longer accept them.
Do you seriously think people will starting smashing and burning subway stations to protest the fact that their tokens don't work? Hardly.
And while their will probably be media stories about poor old token users being forced to trade their precious tokens for evil Metrocards, the rest of us will give these stories a deserved YAWN.
Then they'll have to find a mode of transport other than the subway. When the fare goes up, tokens will be history.
When the fare goes up we'll settle that arguement also!
"When the fare goes up, tokens will be history"
How can you be so sure, David?
This is the first fare hike since the Metrocard. Previously, they had to mint new tokens for a fare hike because hoarding of old tokens would have been a serious problem. Now, with so few people using tokens anyway, maybe they'll just keep the same tokens, raise the price of a token on fare-hike day, and accept that some hoarding will take place. Just as you and others will probably hoard FunPasses. One can only hoard so many; it's only a short-term problem.
Yesterday, the bus company that runs the buses from the station to my office (in the UK) raised the price of its ten-trip tickets. They announced the price hike beforehand and actually encouraged advance purchases at the old price (I bought two extra on Friday; I saw someone else buy three). Why not? It's good for cash flow.
Yesterday, the bus company that runs the buses from the station to my office (in the UK) raised the price of its ten-trip tickets.
ARRIVA N'arrive pas have finally got round to it?!? Last notice I saw was that the fare hike was postponed, but evidently they've put it back on...
This is the second fare hike since MetroCard was introduced, IINM; it's the first since MetroCard was accepted on buses and at all stations.
Fare hikes with tokens are a substantial expense. Either NYCT will lose revenue to hoarders or NYCT will have to spend money minting a new token. In the past, this was simply an unavoidable cost of doing business. Now, with MetroCard accepted everywhere and such little token usage, it's perfectly avoidable. So why wouldn't NYCT use the money instead where it's actually of value, e.g., to pay for service, signal maintenance, station rehabs, or new car purchases, or to push off the next fare hike just a little bit? Any dollar spent on keeping tokens is a dollar not spent somewhere else. NYCT is in the transportation business, not the banking business; it should spend its money on transportation.
I'm sure many people who still use tokens don't prefer tokens, per se, they just haven't bothered switching. I rode the bus with my father a few days ago and I was horrified to see him pay cash, even though he had his MetroCard with him. He simply didn't realize that he got a 10% bonus on the card. He also didn't realize that, if he used an MVM, he could pay by credit card. I told him I was using a Fun Pass; he didn't know what I was talking about. He has nothing against these new-fangled payment schemes -- he's just a bit shy of technology, so he ignores them as much as he can. Many token users use tokens simply because they've always used tokens. Take away the token option and they'll use MetroCards -- and may be surprised at all the discounts they've been missing out on.
He also didn't realize that, if he used an MVM, he could pay by credit card. I told him I was using a Fun Pass; he didn't know what I was talking about. He has nothing against these new-fangled payment schemes -- he's just a bit shy of technology, so he ignores them as much as he can.
That sounds like my father. (Hell, he still calls the "L", the "LL" to this day). He has been using tokens since he was a little boy, and it is hard to for him to accept change in almost any aspect of his life, forget about using a piece of plastic (that he can't physically see how much it's worth in his hands) over a piece of metal that he's used to from when he used the subway every day for most of his life. Forget about new technologies. He hasn't been a regular subway rider since the mid 80's, and basically is stuck at that point, sometimes going years without stepping foot in the subway. He still thinks the old wood turnstyles are still around (although many stations still did have them until about 10 years ago).
A few weeks ago, I was on the subway with him, for the first time in years, and he was just amazed at how nice the system is now (also stuck with a vision of the 70's). He always said he hated the subway (but I know deap down he really enjoyed his rides on it). However, I gave up showing him how to use his MetroCard, or explain that it was a FunPass, good all day unlimited. As the day went on and after a few times I basically just swiped his card, and said, "Go"........
Yes I do live in NYC.
Some people are as stuburn as they come. I live in a former two fare zone with many die harders that refused to use metrocard. To make a long story short, when they saw that they could cut there transit costs in half. They tried metrocard, and eventually sofened thier anti-metrocard stance
My dad was one of them. Afraid to use any technology. He now has a seniors metrocard paying $0.86 oer ride vs $3 if he used tokens
The remaing die harders will have no choice. They will complain for a few weeks. But eventually they will fade into the crowd along with the thousands of others who swore never to use metrocard.
The remaining token users are die hards. I thank them everytime i see someone using a token. They say why? I say because you are subsiding my cost of ride by paying more for no apparent reason
I agree that people can and will be stubborn. They are going to be po'ed when they enter the subway and find the fare has gone up. I think we can both agree on that.
I also agree that they will come around to seeing the wonders of metrocard. But to fare a fare raise AND discontinuibg of tokens? We'll see what happens on that day.
I hope I'm nowhere near it.
I say let's wait and see how things turn out. With tokens out of the picture, I think Pre-Encoded FareCards should re-appear and be used as an emergency supply in case the Booth Terminal goes down. I have no tokens to sell, and the BT is shot to s@#t, what else should i do besides being a change booth for the MVM crowd?
-Stef
I agree let's wait. It's just a matter of time before tokens go. There is a disagreement in here as to when that will be.
If the TA were smart they would keep a small amount of pre-encoded fare cards around especially during the first few days of the turnover. Keeping two many pre-encoded fare cards around
If you read the Fare Policy Presentation it gives hints that it may be a bit harder then it should be to reprogram the turnstyles for the higher fare. If I am reading it right they will have to go to each turnstyle manualy to upgrade the EPROM chip. There should have been a provision to upgrade them from a central location. If the manually upgrade is needed we may see a case where some turnstyles will be deducting and fare box's on buses may be deducting the old fare and some the new fare. The report said it would take 4 days to change over and test everything
All I know it will be a busy week for any transit employee with many unhappy customers when the fare gets raised
IF the MTA does not discontinue the token at the same time as the fare raise it is missing a golden opurtunity to do so. The tooken lovers outcrys will be drowed out by all the other strapangers who are angry about the fare. I rather get all the bloodletting over with at once
TA probably will give booths a supply of pre-encoded farecards about a week before the fare goes up.
TA probably will also have one turnstile at every station closed so that the adjustments can be made. The agent in will booth will ensure that the turnstile is left CLOSED so that no one uses their card and pay $2 for what is still $1.50. However I think the turnstiles won't do that until a signal from downtown comes for all T/S to deduct $2 a swipe or MVM's to sell funpasses at $7 ect.
The last I heard, nothing has been decided at the MTA headquarters. Maybe the fare will only go up to $1.75.
Maybe only a few booths will close.
Hopefully the hearings have had people talking about ways TA can keep the fare at $1.50 instead of talking about how unfair it is.
And as far as the elimination of tokens, I don't think it will be done this April. With the fare raise it is going to be too much to have people pay more for a ride AND do away with tokens at the same time. I'd say tokens will go later in this year. Maybe in the fall.
"Hopefully the hearings have had people talking about ways TA can keep the fare at $1.50 instead of talking about how unfair it is"
I went to the hearing up in the bronx the other day. There were not many constructive comments at the hearing. In fact most of the preregistered speakers spoke the same crap at all the hearings.
There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience. Closing token booths, reducing it's administrative cost, deploying inteligent OPTO especially overnight and weekends, delaying some cosmetic station improvements.
The public hearing process is overrun with special interest groups who never have anything useful to say. It was the same old crap. Gene Russianoff even brought up osama bin laden name. for what reason I don;t know.
Unless someone tells the MTA board something definate and concrete, NOTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE!
Maybe Russianoff was trying to get his name in the evening news. I don't mind people complaining about the subway. But I find it amazing that those people never have suggestions how to avoid a fare raise. If they have a solution SAY IT!
"There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience. Closing token booths, reducing it's administrative cost, deploying inteligent OPTO especially overnight and weekends, delaying some cosmetic station improvements."
Have you said anything at the hearings about reducing the operating expenses?
Unfortunitly there was not enought time to talk about reducing expenses at the hearing. you only get 3 minutes. My primary focus was to let the board know that the average rider supports the closing of part time token booths provided that the proper security is put in place. I was propted to travel nearly 2 hours up to the bronx by the daily news article concerning scapping the tooken booth closing plan.
I have writen the govenor, a few members of the MTA board and a few local elected official concerning reducing operating expenses in a inteligent manner.
What I don't want to see is the reduction in the frequency of trains and cleaniliness of trains. Unfortuitly many people are opposed to the increase in use of OPTO. The G train deployment which reduced the number of cars and did not increase frequency of trains give the anti-OPTO crowd alot of ammunition to use.
I would love to hear some ideas on reducing overhead costs from someone on the inside.
Unfortunitly the reality is that the fare needs to be raised regardless of any cost cutting measures. Many measures to reducing operating expense take time to impliment and realize a savings. The MTA needs to close it's budget gap now. Operational effeciencies such as closing part time token booths for example requires the additioal expense of reconfiguring fare control for HEET's and the cost of the MVM's. Even if the Booths were closed today, it will take a least a year t recope the investment costs of the renovated fare controls.
Similar expenses are involoved in deploying the Inteligent OPTO system I described. On the good news side of things it appears the MTA board is at leaste willing to tackle some difficult fights that in the past was shied away from. The are doing it in a smart manner by not overpromising and falling short.
The biggest thing the MTA needs to do is to flatten out the organizational structure illiminating many middle manager and supervisory roles. This will take some excess undue heat off the average transit employee
(There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience.)
All of these take considerable time and investment. More HEETs, subway cars able to run OPTO, video cameras allowing OPTO in more circumstances, video cameras for security, reorganizing the bus operations for greater efficiency, introducing longer buses, etc., do not happen overnight.
The MTA's surplus is gone now, and NY State and City subsidies are reduced or gone. There is nothing that can posibly be done to keep the fare at $1.75 other than (a) reduce rush hour and weekend subway levels to absolutely crush loads on all lines (with corresponding reductions in midday and evening service) and (b) eliminate or drastically reduce massive numbers of bus lines, forcing many bus riders into cars, taxis, or the subway.
New procedures and technology MIGHT just delay the next increase, to $2.25, for a while, if the MTA manages itself well.
You are absolutely correct money needs to be spent to acheive these operational effeciecies. These technology should have already be deployed in many area especially lines such as the sea beach. If you look at it, better spending of earlier capitol budget would have reduced current operating expenses.
The political forces in NYC and NYS work agianst the MTA to right sizing thier services. I keep hearing that ridership is up 30% so we need to add 30% more service on all lines. this is hogwash. For one many lines had plenty of capasity to obsorb much of the gain in ridership while other lines saw no gain at all.
The MTA tried to close 35 part time tooken booths a few years back. The lack of political support in albany and the inevitable backlash to any change doomed the plan. If you look at it now, a large part of the 177 booth would have already been closed saving the MTA nearly 90-100 million over the 3 year period. Plus the MTA has delibertly left many S/A positions unfilled in anticipating the closing which they are now paying overtime shifts to fill costing extra money.
Local politicians would completly come out against OPTO on the sea beach even with the current budget cut. Imagine trying to deploy this with a small surpus. They would quote seat miles proclaiming a reduciton in service instead of the reduced wait times.
No, these saving can not save us from the current fare hike, but if implimented could save us from future fare hikes. They should be implimented where feasable. It makes me sick to see 8 car Q trains at 2 AM especially after waiting 15 min for the train. The nice thing about metrocard is that is the fare can be rolled back with discounts fairly eaily without implimenting an intirely new fare stucture.
Most of "that" upgrade has already been done in "anticipation" of a change on or about April 1st !
Yes I do live in NYC. Born and raised
Some people are as stuburn as they come. I live in a former two fare zone with many die harders that refused to use metrocard. To make a long story short, when they saw that they could cut there transit costs in half. They tried metrocard, and eventually sofened thier anti-metrocard stance
My dad was one of them. Afraid to use any technology. He now has a seniors metrocard paying $0.86 oer ride vs $3 if he used tokens
The remaing die harders will have no choice. They will complain for a few weeks. But eventually they will fade into the crowd along with the thousands of others who swore never to use metrocard.
The remaining token users are die hards. I thank them everytime i see someone using a token. They say why? I say because you are subsiding my cost of ride by paying more for no apparent reason
I admitt I have bought a few tokens recently. For my personal collection. In addtion I just payed $20 bucks for 16 tokens of various ages from a guy on riders dairies that was looking to turn them in to the MTA for a refund. They have not arrived yet
No matter how you explain it
some New Yorkers will not give up the token.
Toughh doo-doo. If they don't like it, there are plenty of short piers on the Hudson suitable for long walks.
You're welcome to stand at a busy station on Monday morning and explain that to customers waiting on line. I'll be too busy working in the booth to explain it to them.
Bull. The token will be eliminated, there will be no new token. The token's support base is so insignificant now that it will go out with a whimper.
Then its time for the collectors to start their collection.
Tokens will probably still be accepted on buses for $1.50, at least for a while. They might also be accepted at booths and MVM's, also as $1.50.
Probably not MVMs (but who knows?), but definitely booths and buses.
And there will definitely be $2 Metrocards just for trading in one token (and 50¢).
Let's wait until the fare goes up to $2.00. Then we'll resolve this once and for all.
I'll be damn pissed if they start charging a penny on Subway/Bus maps.
Don't give TA any ideas!
$2.00 fare, fine! thats it! No More, not even an extra dime on a pizza slice.
I can remember people saying the same thing about the fare going up to $1.50 some 7 years ago.
MTA! GOING THE TERRIBLE WAY!
There was a guy on riders diaries that had a bunch of old tokens and was asking how he exchage them for a refund. I jumped at the opurtunity to buy the whole lot.
Question...if they raise the fare, will Student Passes be reduced from 3 daily rides to 2?
Probably not.
An ancient enamel white-on-blue "Subway" sign has been revealed on the fence at the IRT President Street subway entrance. I do have a picture of it, but no clue how to show it here.
Go over and see it before they cover it again!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Upload it to your website, then post the URL here.
Apparently, back in the 1970s, the Port Authority proposed extending PATH service to Newark Airport, Elizabeth and Plainfield. It was to be operational by 1978.
It wasn't that NIMBYs got in the way, but YIMBYs! Too many alternate proposals were desired.
True. The PA proposed, around 1971, to extend the PATH Newark-WTC line from Penn Station to Plainfield, using the old Jersey Central Main Line tracks (now NJT Raritan Line) from Elizabeth to Plainfield. What ultimately killed the proposal was its high cost relative to the perceived benefits - it would not add new service, but simply replace one (the Jersey Central) with another (PATH). By 1979 the proposal was officially dead.
True, and probably appropriate.
However, the extension to EWR rail station is on the table. It is my hope that the feasibility study will result in the go-ahead for an EIS, a formal plan and preliminary engineering.
From the November 1974 PATH Newsletter:
"Your future trips to Newark International Airport will become even more convenient when PATH is extended south to meet the airports inter-terminal transfer system"
Obviously this never happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hello, I'm usually on BusTalk but I was looking on the Subway Map and I noticed that under the E train schedule has in smal letters "some rush hour trips to/from 179th St" Last time the E went to 179th St was back on December 10th, 1988 (day before Parsons/Archer opened). So, it that true? Thanks in advance.
Ray
Yes it's true.But it's in the peak direction.From 179St in the AM,to 179St PM.I forgot what the scheduled times of those trips are though.
What stops does the E train make and does the F train go express like it use to when the E train was at 179th St on a full time basis? The F train would be the express and stop at 179th St, Parsons Blvd, Union Turnpike then 71st Av. r does the E train make THOSE stops? Thanks in advance!
Ray
I'm not totally sure, but I think the special E's to 179th run express on Hillside Ave.
I think so myself. But I'm not sure.
Yeah, and the reason I say that the E runs express (other than I think someone mentioning it here once) is that the reverse would be a very confusing idea, if the F was to run express. First of all, there are only about 3 E's that go to 179th. Running the F express would confuse F riders, because than a few F's would skip some stations. It's much easier to just send the E express because most people are exprecting the E to go to Jamaica Center , not 179th anyway. The extra E's are just a bonus for either the 179th riders, or the express station riders, so it doesn't matter if the local stations don't get served by the E. The extra E's are a nice way to increase E service, even though Jamaica Center is at capacity. That is why those extra E's go to 179th in the first place - because they wouldn't have fit at JC.
I thought it was because TA uses the express tracks to store trains on the overnights and the weekends.
V is right. There are a few E trains that start or end up at 179/Hillside Ave. The last time I looked at an E timetable, I didn't see any trains listed that went to/from 179 St. I'm wodering if those E trains run express from Union Turnpike to 179 St?
Well if someone knows exactly what times those special E train's run to 179St from Chambers St then I can go this week and let everyone know if the train I was on ran express from UT-179St.
Well if someone knows exactly what times those special E train's run to 179St from Chambers St then I can go this week and let everyone know if the train I was on ran express from UT-179St or not.
I'll be waiting for your report.
It's been posted before:
From 179:
0712 (Hillside LOCAL)
0731 (Hillside EXPRESS)
0751 (Hillside EXPRESS)
0811 (Hillside EXPRESS)
To 179 from WTC:
1708 arrives 1801 (Hillside LOCAL)
1728 arrives 1821 (Hillside LOCAL)
1840 arrives 1925 (Hillside EXPRESS)
1920 arrives 2005 (Hillside EXPRESS)
On this date in...
1880...Getting around New York gets a little easier as the Second Avenue El opens from South Street to 65th Street.
1968...The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is created to oversee one of the world's largest commuter rail systems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, indeed.
Today, it is the largest commuter rail system in the world.
If you add up all the assets serving New York, together they outclass every other city in depth of coverage:
MTA (all rail assets)
PATH
NJT rail (including commuter trains plus Newark subway, now being extended again to Broad Street)
Hudson-Bergen Light rail
Brooklyn's Red Hook trolley from subway to waterfront)
Amtrak
AirTrain Newark and AirTrain JFK (opening this year)
I am referring to "Greater New York" which would include the west bank of the Hudson from Bayonne to Hoboken.
Yea, and on the other item, it seems they were able to get something done on Second Ave., albeit in 1880.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got off a #1 train tonight and took a cab home, rather than wait for the 2 to 149th St and catch a bus.
A couple of items to take note of:
1) 3s were layed up on the N/B express track between 72-96 Sts for the night
2) Platform at 103rd St N/B is being ripped up, work train at the station
3) Single Track Operation in effect at 137th St to enable transferring to downtown trains, but trains are stopping at 145th St. The MTA service adviosry is incorrect.
-Stef
I saw a 1/9 train today borrowed from the 3 fleet (blue stickers on half the cars and yellow stickers on the other half). (Sorry, no car numbers.) Perhaps one of the 3 trains stored on the express track have made its way into 1 service. I think we can safely assume it will be returned home soon.
David, you mean #1801-#1805/#1896-#1900? I saw that train around 10:45am this morning while taking my break on Bx7 line. Also there are few other 1800's running on #1. I have no idea why they put #3 train run on #1 line.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT TCO/OP
I didn't catch the car numbers. I was getting pictures around the shuttle station when I saw blue and yellow stickers pass by on the local track.
Yeah me too.I saw a Livonia 3 train set on the 1 today and at 96 St heading to Brooklyn,I saw a 1 train set on the 3.The only number's I could get were the last 5 cars;2301-2305.Look's like just for today, Livonia and 240St Yards decided to swap one 10 car train between each other.
"3's were layed up on the N/B express track between 72-96 Sts for the night"
Sounds like TA has a cold weather plan in effect or Lenox yard is closed.
Those trains would have been layed up on the 1 in the Middle between 103-116th Sts had the the #1 GO not been in effect. Lenox was also closed because of the track work near the junction of the 2/3.
-Stef
Here is my latest updated revised 2004 Manhattan Bridge Service.
Service on North Side Manhattan Bridge:
B
6th Avenue Express
[Midday/Evening] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge)
[Rush Hours]- All Stops Bedford Park Blvd, The Bronx to 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn
[Weekends/Nights] – No Service: Use D for service to/from Manhattan and The Bronx; and W for service to/from Brooklyn, Transfer between D and W at 34 Street.
D
6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on South Side Manhattan Bridge:
N
Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on the Tunnel:
M
Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R
Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
W
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (lower Manhattan) to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (via West End & Montague Street Tunnel).
[Midday] - Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 9th Ave, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights/Weekends]: Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (via lower Manhattan) to Pacific Street, Brooklyn; express stops from Pacific Street to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street, Stillwell Avenue, Brooklyn (via West End).
Another Service option for M
M
Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Midday/Evening]- All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Chamber Street, Manhattan
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
Please Keep in mind that this is not MTA's 2004 Manny B proposal.
Since the W is in the Montague rathole why not just make the N the Broadway Express to simplify things and make your friend Fred even happier?
Broadway:
EXPRESS = 63rd Street Tunnel / Via Bridge
LOCAL = 60th Street Tunnel / Via Tunnel
Anything else takes a penalty in tph for crossing and congestion.
Elias
OK Elias, who am I to argue?
That's one of the most sensible plans I've seen so far. On the B during Rush Hours you specified all stops from 36th Street to Stillwell, yet you did not specify it for Midday/Evening. Are you suggesting that the B should run express south of 9th Ave at these times?
Does anyone know or have resources as to when all of the major river tunnels, either Queens-Manhattan, Brooklyn-Manhattan, or Bronx-Manhattan, were completed? Thanks for any help.
Does that include car tunnels as well (such as the Queens Midtown) or only subway/commuter rail tunnels?
Here's a quick list:
Subways listed south to north:
Joralemon, Lex IRT, 1905
Montague, BMT, 1920
Old Slip, 7th Ave. IRT, 1919
Fulton, IND 8th Ave., 1933
Rutgers, IND 6th Ave., 1936
14th St., BMT Canarsie, 1924
42d St.(Steinway), Flushing IRT, 1915*
*actually completed 1907 for trolleys but not used full time till 1915 when subways took over.
53d St., IND Queens, 1933
60th St., BMT Astoria, 1920
63d St., IND, 1989
Lextington/125th St, Bronx IRT, 1918
145th St/Lenox, Bronx IRT, 1905
155th St, IND Concourse, 1933
Railroad tunnel:
32nd/33d Sts, LIRR & Amtrak, 1910
Vehicular tunnels:
Brooklyn Battery, 1950
Queens Midtown, 1940
Late 19th Century and early 20th Century engineers made miracles...
So technically the Joralemon tubes are a few years older than the Steinway tubes, but the Steinway tubes appear to be in much worse shape and more poorly designed. I guess it was all in the construction. No doubt because the Steinways were built for trolleys.
NO! Construction of the Steinway tubes started earlier than the subway and it was to open first, but an explosion halted construction.
The tunnels were completed to spec.
Really? I agree with QTraindash7's thought on the Steinways being in much worse shape. I don't even think they can even be expanded. Aren't they the only subway tunnels that are made of cast-iron? That's obviously hard to cut so deep in the water.
(Old Slip, 7th Ave. IRT, 1919)
Not to be picky, but I always heard that one called the Clark Street tunnel. Kind of like the Brooklyn Bridge.
(Fulton, IND 8th Ave., 1933)
Always heard that referred to as the Cranberry tunnel. Perhaps because I live in Brooklyn.
You are correct for both.
Joralemon, Lex IRT, 1905
There was no IRT Brooklyn service until January 9, 1908.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. The tunnel was constructed between 1905 and 1908.
Tried to send you an e-mail, but the address you have in Subtalk doesn't work.
Are there any plans in the near future to make an express train that will run from stillwell,bayparkway,62 st to 9th ave?
None AFAIK.
If there were expresses on every South Brooklyn line, I would guess the M/W or B/W would be the next in line.
It would be worth wild for the MTA to reinstate express service on the west end line. The slowness of the west end line encourages many riders take express buses into the city which are more costly for the MTA to operate and clogg up traffic on the gowanus/BQE/BATTERY TUNNEL and manhattan streets.
Better feeder bus routes need to be set up to encourage ridership at the express stops. When my girlfreind lived at cropsy and bay parkway in bensonhurst, the bay parkay bus would take forever to come. The MTA could put extra trains special bay parkway buses as they do on the B3 during the morning rush to shorten wait times and increase usage
One cannot "reinstate" what has never been "instated." There has never been scheduled express service on the West End Line. I don't know that there is (or can be) enough ridership to warrant such service, though it might be worth looking at.
As to bus service,
1. The B3 no longer has short-turns at E. 16th Street (Brighton Line subway station). All trips run through to 25th & Harway Avenues as of September 2002. When Stillwell Terminal reopens, consideration will no doubt be given to reinstating this service (it was discontinued to mitigate the impact of Stillwell Terminal construction on Brighton Line riders who need to get to/come from Coney Island and could use the B3 to/from the W train instead of the Q train to/from Coney Island).
2. Neither the B6 nor the B82 have their maximum load points anywhere near the Bensonhurst end of the line. There is plenty of room on buses between the Bay Parkway station and Bay 37th Street-Harway Avenue or Canal & Cropsey Avenues.
David
The issue is not plenty of room, but rather frequency of service. The bus just does not come often enough for riders to take it to 86th street for the b/w/m train. Extra short run service if provided would gain populararity if the west end was quicker then other route's into the city Factor in the slowness of the west end line and presto you have tons of express bus riders
The density around the west end line is just as dense as the brighton line. the reason the brighton line is more popular is due to it's express service and fast convient ride into manahattan. At leaste 25% of brighton riders come off feeder bus routes or people drive over and park near the stations.
As for the B3 short runs. They make the commute to the station much faster for riders in the kings plaza area. Besides the extra service they bypass many stops saving time. They also get away from the god offul bensonhurst bound bus schedule which gives the bus driver far too much time to get from E71st street to E16th street station. It is a regualar occurance that the bus waits a few blocks prior to nostrand ave checkpoint to kill time. even during rush hour with a crowded bus. I have been driving to work recently an have not noticed that it was discontinued
I lived at Cropsey & Bay 37 for about a year and the walk between there and the 25th Av station was hardly a killer. Heck, I even walked to the Bay Parkway stop quite a few times. There is really no need to make it into a two fare trip unless the weather is particularly bad.
(We're starting to get into BusTalk here, but...)
By "voiceofreason"'s logic, the B71 should run every 2 minutes, and the S42 should run every 2 minutes, and so on and so forth. NYCT does not base its proposed service frequencies on its current service frequencies; it bases them on how many people are using the buses at their current service frequencies. There are two routes in the corridor "voiceofreason" is talking about. They're both at rather good headways, even by NYC standards, and neither is anywhere near its most crowded in the corridor he's talking about. Thus, there is no justification for running more service there. If "voiceofreason" is willing to fund the increased service himself, I'm sure NYCT President Reuter will be happy to arrange a photo opportunity to accept the check.
David
Oh, and as to the B3:
ALL trips that previously terminated at E. 16th Street were extended to 25th & Harway Avenues with the September 2002 pick. Currently the exact same number of trips is operated on the B3 on weekdays as was operated before September 2002 -- only the destinations have been changed. If anyone has an E. 16th Street sign displayed, either he/she has been ordered to short-turn the bus by management or supervision, he/she is doing it on his own (a rule violation), or he/she has the wrong destination displayed.
David
David,
There was a rush hour West End Express service prior to the 1967 opening of the Chrystie Street connection. May i suggest that you check the history of the subway lines that are linked to NYC Subwway.org for the details.
I recall reading that there was both a West End Broadway Express and a West End Nassau Street Local service during rush hours
Thank You
This has come up a few times in past discussions and you are mistaken. The "express" referred to the service pattern on the 4th Av and Manhattan segments, not on the West End segment. As far as anyone knows, West End has never had regularly scheduled express service on it. The confusion is similar to how the F was called "6th Avenue Express" on old side signs -- express referred to how it ran in Queens, not 6th Av.
You're welcome.
What was referred to as the West End Express in the pre-Chrystie days was the T train. It ran express under 4th Av. but not on the West End segment. IIRC it ran during rush hours only from Sept. 1965 (when I started riding the subways) through Nov. 1967. The TT was the mainstay of the West End in those days. In Nov. 1967, the B replaced the T although the TT hung on a little while longer.
When my girlfreind lived at cropsy and bay parkway in bensonhurst, the bay parkay bus would take forever to come.
Three blocks? If the bus takes that long, did she think about the possibility of walking?
they could start an express service where trains would start at stillwell, stop at Bay 50, 25th street, and Bay Parkway, then run express to 62nd street, and from there run express until 9 av. The W train could probably operate that way during rush hours, with the M making the local stops.
I thought the reason was a lack of signals at a certain stop.
I see that between Forest Hills and Roosevelt Ave. the E Line bypasses 5 stations, Whats the fastest speed that has been obtained on that stretch? Or Whats the fastest anybody witnessed? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
New York City Subway BVE Authority
110 MPH
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
It depends. Sometimes during the rush hour, the E doesn't even go past 15 MPH bypassing stations between 71 Av and Roosevelt going Manhattan Bound because of congestion entering Roosevelt. If possible, I'll just have to peek into the speedometer in one of the unused cabs and see how fast it actually goes, assuming we won't run into an infinite number of reds and yellows...
the best i have ever seen on a manhattan bound express between continental and jackson heights is 40-41mph for a R32 and 45mph for a R46. of course this isnt rush hours, and in rush hours not only do u have more trains, but u have the big downhill when leaving 67 avenue, u have lots of Grade timers to slow trains down that hill. then u can fly through woodhaven blvd slattery plaza, only to slow down for another timer entering Grand Avenue newtown. it says red until u face it and then it turns green from red. but u better be doing the allowable speed or else u can get tripped. then u have the station timers entering jackson heights. not only that but recently, they are doing third rail protection board replacement around jackson heights, so trains literally crawl out of jackson heights. also be careful, supervision lurks around continental, jackson heights and queens plaza alot on weekday rush hours expecially mornings.
65mph..in regulated speed on a R46[when new]between Roosevelt ave and Queens Plaza
I should know. I took the E express on the way home Thursday. But the train went so slowly and stopped a few times. I tranfered at 74th street and got on the V train which dispite the stops was much faster. I learned a lesson: "Never take an express train at rush hour".
And in most cases, don't wait for an express if the local is about to leave. The time savings for the express will diminish.
Well Actually the A Express is pretty quick during AM rush hour.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
New York City Subway BVE Authority
Are you kidding? I take the C train almost every day from Utica/Rockaway/Bway Jct to Euclid, and it actually does travel faster than the A, especially during morning rush hour. The only time the A goes faster is when its late and the driver tries to get over on the speed limit. Even in Manhattan, I can recall about a dozen times I was on the C from 42nd to Canal, and we kept catching up to the A so many times to the point where the dispatcher at Canal couldn't remember which train was supposed to go first (after about 3 min. wait they chose the A).
The only place where the A runs faster is Manhattan-bound from Euclid to Bway Jct, not accounting for the door-holding delays at both Euclid and Bway. And, sometimes it takes less time from 59 st-125 St, simply because it makes less stops; not because it goes faster, especially if a D or a late B/C cuts in front of it.
I take the A/C Lines every single day to school from Nostrand Ave. - Euclid Ave. and vice versa, And after school I see the A Train most of time is late, and I've seen the A Train R44 hit 45+ mph.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
There are no grade timers coming into Jackson Heights. Those GTs are leaving Elmhurst Avenue EASTBOUND.
I have witnessed in this stretch 40 mph, but that is because of safety issues regarding a downgrade in Rego Park and a curve in southern Elmhurst (by Newtown).
Manhattan bound is considered southbound and Jamaica bound is considered northbound on the Queens Blvd. IND. On the express tracks between Continental and Roosevelt, in the southbound direction due to upgrades entering 67th Ave. and entering Roosevelt and due to grade timers from south of 67th Ave. to the north end of Woodhaven Blvd. and around the curve going into Grand Ave., speeds are not that great. However northbound leaving Roosevelt to north of Elmhurst Ave., the speed is the highest. You can easily reach 45 MPH. Then you have to slow it down at this point due to a couple of grade timers till you get south of Grand. After that, as long as trains aren't direcly in front of you, there are all greens till Continental. Good speed is reached between Woodhaven and 63rd Dr. then the upgrade to 67th Ave. slows you down.
That timer outside Elmhurst Ave. is a bitch. The trains reach a high speed thru the station then they immediatley decelerate, moving slowly thru Grand Ave before accelerating again. Thru Woodhaven the trains fly.
I worked the E line from May 1999 (when the WillyB closed) till July 2001 (when the V was born). I know that grade timer well! Not exactly one of my favorites!
Just watched everyone's favorite subway themed movie. During a fight scene in Union Square there was an area which was designated as an "arcade" with pinball machines and other devices. Was this merely part of the movie, or did it really exist?
Much of the footage at Union Square was actually shot there. At least I recognized most of the surroundings. For instance, you can see an R-12 heading an express train at the IRT stop. They did a quick cut to a station pillar on the BMT Broadway station when the leader looks around at one point. This particular pillar had a "To 14th St. subway" sign with an arrow, and I remember those signs very well.
Even the Canarsie line's Union Square station is featured in the movie.
If Steve says it, then believe it. Between him and Wayne Slants 40, these are two of the biggest subway nerds around. Their knowledge of the trains and stations astounded my last fall. I really felt like a pilgrim around them.
Thanks for the compliment, but I can be wrong at times. I used to wait for N trains at Union Square fairly regularly, so I recognized that "To 14th St. Subway" placard immediately. They used to be on every other station pillar at platform level just below the "Union Sq. 14th St." station signs.
I think it was part of the movie.Back in those days if it was true the way crime was back in days the machines would have been vandalized.Plus it would have been a good hookey spot:)
Sorry,
I did not see this before I posted my subsequent post.
Peace,
ANDEE
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The current Queens Tribune reports that City Councilmember Peter Vallone Jr. (his daddy's place-holder) has introduced a bill to establish a commission to study the possibility of seceding from the state. (The link is http://www.queenstribune.com/news.html#7 for those who wish to read it.)
I'd be very interested to see how secession would impact the MTA and its operating agencies - especially NYC Transit. Maybe NYCDOT would take over Transit, instead of the other way around? Any thoughts?
This is just a political talking piece. The federal government would never allow New York State, which is represented by two Senators, to be represented by four. My idea has been for the part of New York south of I-84 to join New Jersey: those Upstate would be glad to see us go. In which case all of the MTA and PATH would become part of New Jersey Transit.
[The federal government would never allow New York State, which is represented by two Senators, to be represented by four.]
But it wouldn't be one state with four Senators; it would be TWO states, each with TWO Senators...
- The new state (New Amsterdam? South New York? Old York?) would have two Senators;
- The old state (New York? North New York?) would have two Senators, one of whom would be Hillary Clinton!!
More relevant, though, is that the City would no longer send legislators to Albany (because the City Council would presumably become the new state's legislature). Sheldon Silver would lose his job AND his entire power base overnight, which is part of why it'll never happen.
Let there be New York State and the Independent Free City-State of Gotham! Viva La Revolucion! ;-)
- The new state (New Amsterdam? South New York? Old York?)
Its name proper would probably be New New York.
This topic was covered about a month and a half ago.
If you make New York City a state, you will have to arrange interstate agreements with either the rest of New York, New Jersey and or other states for:
-- Water supplies (New York City would have to go through a special water master appointed by the U.S. Supreme Court to get rights to water that falls in New York State -- it's do-able, but financial compensation would probably be involved)
-- Long-term prison facilites (can't stick everyone in Rikers -- you'd need multiple classification facilities or another interstate compact to house your worst felons elsewhere, the way D.C. does with Lorton and a couple of other facilities)
-- Power generation (PASNY would have to have a literal "power-sharing agreement" worked out, since the Authority as drawn up by Mr. Moses belongs to the state, not the city).
You would also turn the New York City Council in to a state legislature, but it would probably include about a third more representatives, since there would have to be an upper and lower state house (unless the city adopted the Nebraska single house format). Some of those pols could come from those currently serving in Albany, though adding more elected officials to the city's current political structure is about like giving a two year old lighted matches and a spray bottle full of butane. Not recommended for the long term benefit of the general public.
They would not have any tax reciprication because NY state does not have reciprication with any other state.
NYS residents who work in the city would have to fill out a full NYC non resident return and a NYS resident return with a credit for tax paid to the city. What a mess!
But would Jersey want us? Think about how much larger Jersey's government would have to get in order to support all the government-funded programs we have here in NYC.
Why in the world would New Jersey want New York City, instantly gaining a single city which would dominate the politics of their state?
And cause rural Jersey residents (yes, there more than a few of them in NW and South Jersey) to resent NYC in the same way Upstaters already. We'd be trading one set of bad neighbors for another.
And what if New York City DID become a state? How would the cities be broken up? Or would things like that just stay the same?
You could have a state with 5 cities(Boroughs)
Quoted from the February 1968 issue of the "New York Division ERA Bulletin"...
Fuses have been removed from side destination lights on R-1/9's so they cannot light and outshine the R-40's which will not have any lighted destination signs and only partial destinations and no routes.
This would indicate that there was concern that the old cars would look better than the new ones because they had lighted destination signs. Is this really the way it was?
It seems to me that they didn't want to let people know that they were too cheap to include sige destination sign lights in the R-40s.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-7/9s that were transferred to the Eastern Division had the light bulbs removed from their side destination signs, and the new roller curtains that were installed did not have holes cut out at one end to allow access to the bulbs. There were circuit breakers for the side signs in the cabs, so you'd think there was no need for fuses.
IIRC the side signs on old timers that remained on the IND still worked, although I rarely saw one that did after 1968.
MetroLink looks at new lines to Overland, West Port area
By JIM GETZ Post-Dispatch
02/28/2003 10:27 PM
Planners for the MetroLink rapid transit train system are for the first time leaning toward a route that would serve both north St. Louis city and west St. Louis County - the two constituencies now the most vocal about getting light-rail service.
A plan to serve both inner-city residents dependent on public transportation and suburbanites fighting traffic jams could be what's needed to convince county voters someday to approve another quarter-cent sales tax increase for transit. The plan, however, probably puts a once-planned route to Florissant on the back burner.
"It's the right transportation plan and the right political plan - you have to have both in concert to make it happen," said Larry Salci, president and chief executive of the Metro public transportation agency, as the Bi-State Development Agency now calls itself.
In a letter to a U.S. House transportation subcommittee Friday, the East-West Gateway Coordinating Council is asking Congress to authorize the plan in the next multiyear transportation bill, which would cover 2004-2009. That would enable MetroLink planners to get money for initial engineering work. If it gets funding, the route would be built after 2010.
Friday was the first time transportation officials publicly said they were going to request federal money for a priority other than three previous general route extensions: north to St. Louis Community College at Florissant Valley, west to Chesterfield and south to Green Park in south St. Louis County.
The new "Y-shaped" proposal is a hybrid, using only parts of the full-length north and west ideas. It would start at the convention center in downtown St. Louis and head north to a station on Union Boulevard. From there, it would split: The north line would continue to Northland Shopping Center, the west line to West Port Plaza.
The west line also would have a spur southward to Clayton, where it would connect with the new line now being built from Forest Park west to Clayton and then south to Shrewsbury. That route is expected to open in 2006.
Jerry Blair, director of transportation planning at Gateway, said the north-and-west line is estimated to cost $1 billion in 2007 dollars. He said the big difference between this route and earlier plans is linking the north and west lines.
Gateway's executive director, Les Sterman, agreed and said the idea was not a response to pressure from St. Louis city activists or West County mayors. Rather, it is a refinement of general ideas into something more specific, he said.
But Salci said voices from those areas had influence, even if he disagreed with criticisms by some of them about the Clayton-Shrewsbury line.
"I would sound foolish if I said I hadn't listened to the north city and West County residents," he said. "They both want more MetroLink. Rather than try to make it a zero-sum game, and build all or nothing, I saw in San Francisco how they built in a Y (shape)."
Some of the activists were at a meeting Friday of the Metro system's board to argue again that the $550 million Clayton-Shrewsbury line ignores inner-city residents and is so expensive it will force more cuts in bus service that poor and elderly people rely on.
The activists, from the Coalition for Responsible Transit and ACORN, continued to push their alternative to the Clayton-Shrewsbury route; it would include part of the proposed west line.
They took the north route proposal as a partial victory, even if it is a decade away.
"Had you not had public input," coalition member Tom Currier said, "you never would have had the public dialogue you had today."
In any case, the new north-and-west line would be built only after a South County segment extends the new route from Shrewsbury to Butler Hill Road, possibly in 2009 if federal money comes through.
The Metro board is hoping that because all local money is being used to build the Clayton-Shrewsbury line, federal officials will be impressed enough to fully fund the South County extension. If not, all of these plans might be 30 years away. That's because $419 million in borrowed money for the Clayton-Shrewsbury extension will take 30 years to pay back, and the Metro bus and rail system would not be able to afford anything else until then.
Back in 1994, Union Pacific Railroad was proposing commuter rail service from St. Louis west to Pacific and south to Crystal City, but never went through. Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?
"Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?"
Not really. Every couple of years someone floats the idea but it dies very quickly.
It was the first day of Operator Training at BERA today. There are eight of us in this year's class, including two SubTalkers besides myself. Sparky (John S) and all the other instructors were concise, thorough, knowledgeable and above all, patient. Training cars today were ConnCo 775 and Montreal MUCTC 2001. All of us had handle time as practice, getting familiarized with the cars and the railroad.
I can say truthfully that I should have been there years ago. Today was interesting and I learned a few things about trolleys I didn't know before. There are four more class sessions to come. I actually am looking forward to them.
PS Sparky, the GG DOES go around the curve at Bedford/Nostrand faster than 2001 at Branford. ;-)
You guys had it good. We had 4573, an open convertible car, last year in the freezing cold. (By the way, I'm not knocking the car. Its one of my favorites, just not in the winter)
True that. Both cars today were warm and comfy. But the instructors reminded us that Operator training used to be held in FEBRUARY...Brrr!
You'll get the privilege to run 4573; you have to put something into full parallel. Watch the forecast for the coldest Saturday of the month ;^)
That would be the first Saturday of Spring, no? It's Spring, take those side sashes off! It's open (car) season! ;-)
You current trainess are whimps, Class of 1985 in February on
CONNCO 1414, learning back poling on Track 10.
;-) Sparky
You will have time on 4573 before the end of training.
I had a total of moving it 10 feet during my training. Then I got that car for my road test, I can I never operated but still passed the road test and qual'd on striaght air (lost a few points for not knowing how to go from Full parallel to full series).
Brrr!
You mean to tell me there's a question on going through COAST? Wow. Just like the TA road test. :)
(lost a few points for not knowing how to go from Full parallel to full series).
That's easy.
Shut off.
Advance controller to full series.
Never, Never Back off.
How about an 1898 Single Trucker with open platforms in 15 degree weather?
BSM doesn't shut down in the winter - we run 12 months of the year.
(We did lose two Sundays due to the monster 28.2 inches of white hell followed by 2.5 inches of cold driving rain which reduced the snow to cold, soggy cotton. Finally got the railroad opened last Saturday.)
Anybody got a Brill 1913 vintage single truck sweeper? We'll take it!!
It will fit right into the collection. Call us.
Sorry, no Brill.....got a spare McGuire....roof optional
Bye Bye #59
8-) Sparky
Nope, no McGuires (might have to cloroform Ed, though) as we never had any, AFAIK. Lewis & Fowler, Brill (1907 & 1913 will do nicely.
The L&F's and 1907 Brills were open platform originally, closed cir. 1912. All hand-braked, single truck.
Yes, but you can always make exceptions to what actually operated
for BTC. St. Louis pre~war PCC, ex San Diego, ex El Paso to be
resurected as BTC. HMM!!!
#59 ready to relocate south of the Mason~Dixon. >GG<
8-) Sparky
However, we had St. Louis PCC's, which all went in the 1956 purge.
McGuire sweepers, nope.....
That's too big an execption.
I voted against getting 503/1503/7303 due to lack of permanent storage, but Ed did arrive at a solution. It came a bit earlier than we first thought, thus why it's sitting bagged on 4 track outside.
The (more or less) official BSM policy is "Baltimore, Baltimore and only Baltimore". The more or less 7303 exception was due to '56 purge and the fact that Mr. Peabody won't lend us the WayBack Machine.
BSM operates on the old Baltimore wide gauge track, right? If so, that would pretty much rule out anything that didn't run there.
Gauge is not an issue. We can & will regauge cars. We are currently regauging a tamper to our 5' 4 1/2" gauge. The ex-El Paso PCC will also be regauged. PCC's are very easy to regauge. The difference is due to axle length. The tamper is getting spacers to regauge it, as it may have to return to that funny narrow gauge at a later time, so the spacers can be easily removed and the tamper put back to TFNG.
As to the Baltimore gauge, streetcars have always used it. It's the MTA's light rail that went narrow, due to the railroads refusal to go to the Baltimore standard.
^^^"PCC's are very easy to regauge"^^^
Pardon my demur, but there is an exception to that expression.
Well the units I refer to are PCC "Look Alikes" and my understanding
is that no one has successfully regauged a Red Arrow 1949 St. Louis
Suburban. May be if a unit were sent to BSM, the gauge could be
widened, but none have been regauged to standard 4' 8 1\2".
8-) Sparky
PS-Have to run now and get to Branford for School Car.
The Red Arrow St. Louies are not PCC cars. They have Commonwealth trucks and a lot of PCC inspired techology, but are not PCC's.
True PCC trucks (Clark variety, but St. Louis made B3's as well) are all "standard gauge". Wide gauge trucks simply have wider axles, and the axle tube casting (containing the differencal case) has extenders welded to cover the extended axle. Narrow gauge PCC trucks are all custom jobs. (see Los Angeles and meter gauge TRC/PCC trucks.)
Philly gauge B2 trucks are easy to reguage to Baltimore gauge. (This applies only to trucks with Super wheels, D1 wheels are hell to remove. Ask PTM.) Unbolt the wheel, remove the outer cheek plate, the outer resilient plate, the wheel, the inner resilient plate, but leave the inner cheek plate (which is pressed on the axle). Insert a plate spacer of the proper deminsion that is drilled for the ring bolt pattern on a Super wheel and reasemble the wheel using longer ring bolts. Presto!! A Baltimore gauge PCC truck.
7303 will be getting this treatment. We have the parts on hand to do it, (the car currently has D1 wheels which will be replaced with Super wheels), but there are things afoot which I can't talk about that will result in a truck swap with another museum that will bring a pair of Philly gauge trucks coming and the standard gauge trucks going.
Does "narrow" refer to standard 4' 8 1/2" gauge?
At least to us. In the BSM archives are track drawings from the United Railways. Every place the strretcar tracks crossed a railroad, the engineering remark would be "standard over narrow".
We're right, it's the rest of the world that's wrong.
O-K.........
Sounds like my ex-wife :-)
Congrats to you JayZee for joining our Operator Training Class. Looking forward to seeing you up at BERA.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to meeting SubTalkers on March 30 and all through the season, too. Hope to meet you soon.
If we are going to exhault plaudits, let get all SubTalkers involved
in the BERA Class of 2003 listed. >GG<
STUDENTS:
JayZeeBMT
Third Ave Rwy
Silver Fox
INSTRUCTORS:
Big Lou from Brooklyn
Jeff H [Training Director]
JohnS (Sparky)
APPRENTICE INSTRUCTOR:
Anon_e_mous
;-) Sparky
Of the three newbees from SubTalk I only have met one, so I'll be looking forward to seeing you next Saturday ... I'll be at a meeting all morning, but on the proerty in the afternoon, so see you then.
Mr t
Sorry, we do not need hecklers disturbing the Students.
8-)Sparky
Augh come on it's a tradition we have to teese the newbees, at least a little < g >
^^^"PS Sparky, the GG DOES go around the curve at Bedford/Nostrand faster than 2001 at Branford."^^^
Yes, but the curve at Bedford Nostrand on the GG is 90'. What
curve on the GG is similar to Riverside curve at Branford, on a
larger scale, but is 180' opposite?
;-) Sparky
You're correct there. There IS a reverse curve between Queens Plaza and Court Square (Bklyn. bound) but it is not 90 degrees. You got me on that one. ;-)
The curve on the GG that is an S curve but 180' opposite of Riverside
Curve at Branford is between Nassau & Metropolitan\Grand as the line goes from Manhattan Avenue to Union Avenue or visa~verse.
The 180' opposite is you swing right first, then swing left either North or South.
Branfords Riverside Curve you swing left, then right either East or West on a smaller scale though.
;-) Sparky
OK I got you now. The directional orientation and left/right sequence is rotated 90' geographically and 180'sequentially. I knew I'd figure that out...;-)
Well, guess I can put my 2 cents in. Training was great, reminded me how rusty I am and what all the new rules are. From what I can tell the hardest thing for me will be figuring out the signals (which isn't all that tough). Was great to put faces to some more names on here. Too bad I will be at sea until May!!
Steve Loitsch
When early summer comes along they'll be in a pinch for operators when the "regulars" start doing other things, i.e. vacation with the family, etc.
So, take notes & study hard because they'll be glad to put you to work when you get back on dry land.
Thurston,
Third Avenue Rwy has been a regular at Branford for more years then
I'm a member, but never qualified for operations. Daddy Loitch brought
Steve to BERA in a carriage, so I think he knows the drill. Better then YOU or I. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Sparky, thanks for the accolades but you could have left out the carriage thing!!!:) Especially with this crowd. LOL Believe it or not things have changed, especially the signals. My problem is unlearning what I have been taught. Its mostly little things, like I was taught to run with the brake handle in the lap position, but now run in release. And remember to notch up slower. Just a little fine tuning and rust-cleaning.
Steve
When you come back to shore, the weather will be nice and all the cars at BERA will be there waiting for you. Looking forward to seeing everybody again on Saturday.
Did someone mention school car?
You ain't seen nothing until you get broken in on this thing:
Let the foaming begin! She's the right type for me.....
-Stef
Someday, but I've a long way to go before I'll get handle time on that car. But when I do, it'll be EXCELLENT!
It's a nice ride. Then you graduate up to something even bigger and heavier. :)
That moaning, groaning, grunting, snarling, hissing, throbbing juggernaut of a subway car, your baby, 1689.:)
Might be their heaviest car until we can find a way to get that standard to run again. :)
Listen son, IRT cars rule the mighty BERA rails. I might start an empire in which SMEE Cars are the dominating force. SMEE Cars here, SMEE Cars there, SMEE Cars everywhere.... They don't die, they multiply!
LOL!
-Stef
Oh bite me. Heh. I love YOUR toy too ya know, but let's face it. 1689's got a few pounds on ya. :)
@#$%! What did you say laddie?
My car is a lean, mean, fighting machine.
-Stef
Heh. (tap tap) Just checking to see if this PA works. :)
Pity we don't have a two track mainline, I'd race ya. But hey, look at the bright side. If I drool on 1689, then you don't have to break out the mop. Happy endings ALL around. Heh.
Even with just a single line, you could still do a pretty good car chase scene!
-Robert King
Assuming whatever signalling might exist premists two vehicls on the line to follow closely...or use the TVIV.
-Robert king
Branford's a VERY WELL signalled line with a safety record to be proud of. Wouldn't be possible unless the two cars were within inches of each other passing the signals, just like the early days of the IRT. About as close to a race like that as we're going to get would be making faces at each other out the cab window while one of us gets a lineup. :)
A-N-D they're about to add a couple more.
Why, different reason then the TA.
Can you say insurance ... those companys are looking for reasons to raise our rates, to we don't want to give them one !
If it's well signalled, I guess it's time to use the TVIV then if you want to do a subway car chase...
Insurance companies are something, aren't they? My personal experience with them was that all of them - all of them - wanted $5,000/year from me to be insured on the car I'd be driving if I could afford it. The car in question is a 1987 Toyota Camry! Can you imagine what it would be on a new car?!
-Robert King
Certainly *I* wouldn't have a problem with that, I was actually quite impressed with what had been done so far (right down to the punch boxes, NICE touch) and yes, it helps to further enhance the safety aspects that have made Branford a safer place to "work" than the TA. Nothing gives this old motorman more joy than sitting at a red and watching it drop for me. I was always such a cheap date. Heh.
I like to chase the car ahead thru the curves, but soon I won't be able to do that :-(
Mutli car operations at Branford & Warehouse Point aren't anything like the real thing, but they are a little bit of a challange & a pleasent change for the simple back & forth.
Yeah, got those kind of thrills on station time in the TA (59th St in particular) years ago when two trains were allowed to "close up" in motion, as well as keying by on the Brighton right up to the storm door of the train ahead. One moment's lapse of reality though and everybody on both trains gets to grab some floor and shout "ouch!"
Already got my yayas though "closing up" ... I can get by without getting to do that again. I actually found trying to get the whole car to stop at the high level platform MUCH more amusing. At least the TA gives you a few feet of slop. What's the slop coming into that high level there? 1/4 INCH? :)
My car is a lean, mean, fighting machine
Stef: Nice to hear from a good IRT man. We have to remind some of these fellowsthat the Interborough RAPID Transit Company took the RAPID very seriously. Some IRT speed lines are the Lexington from 125 Street southbound to Grand Central, the Broadway Line from 96 to Times Square or the Pelham Line center track between East 177 Street and Soundview.
The BMT gave up their experiment with RAPID transit after 1918 and settled forlow and steady. The INDependent subway was so named because the train came when it wanted to.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Some thoughtful remarks for us all to ponder < g >
Heh. I'm reminded though of Paul Matus' fine article on the 1919 IRT strike with an image on page two of "Trains operate at the convenience of the co." ... I hold no ill will towards the IRT, you couldn't cross a north/south street in the Bronx without hitting your head on an el pillar. :)
Great story (and the picture I refer to) here:
http://www.3drail.com/0301/index.html
6688's a great old girl though ...
Hey, when the R-10s ruled, the A train WAS the quickest way to get to Harlem.
Naw...BRT/BMT rules at BERA! Can't mess wit the big, 'n solid genuine railroad cars from Brooklyn...
Youse lookin' faw a fight or somth'n? :)
"Can't we all just get along?" Actually, I *like* SMEE's ... they're EASY. :)
So my undergraduate coursework would be straight air/safety/K control, while the postgraduate work would be AMUE/SMEE/ME-42. How nice that us railfans have the University of BERA for our baccalaureate education! ;-)
Wait until you're asked to change the oil. :)
That's CI Peter's job.:)
Poor boy's already overworked ... a dab here, a schmear here ... no biggie. :)
Actually it's a community college where you get a associates degree, i.e. community of associates < g >
Yeah! Let's rock.... C'mon, put up your dukes! I might cold cock you with my brake handle. It's a pretty heavy tool, you know?
Brooklyn Cars? What are those?
-Stef
Ya, well I'll have to introduce you to the receiving end of a third rail slipper! :)
Fix the spring under the parking brake lever on 1689 and we can demonstrate the old IND "roto-slap." :)
Then there's the electric brake plug - never mind.
You haven't DONE the TA shuffle until you've been whacked in the pants by an errant handbrake roto-twirl. I'm seeing stars and talking five octaves higher just THINKING about it. :(
Ouch!! That's worse than breathing helium!:)
If you ever rode an Arnine and heard that puppy clanking against its post along the ride, imagine what a well-wound spring could do. They had a nasty habit of "kicking" when they unsprung which is yet another reason why Branford disabled them in the name of safety ...
That was why the rule in the TA was "keep your head down and ALWAYS wear your cup." :)
^^^"They had a nasty habit of "kicking" when they unsprung which is yet another reason why Branford disabled them in the name of safety ..."^^^
Yes, they are disarmed on the air brake cars, but those "armstrong's"
do a twirl if not properly released.
Also had an occasion on an air equipped car and teens, where they
wound it up and didn't kick the lock and when I released and watched
the goose neck spin. Needed a change of my BVDs after that experience. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Hahahaha ... one of the things I *loathed* about Arnine put-ins at oh-dark-hundred (you SAW me at the Twin Pines, you could SPOT how I am with "good morning" and Connecticut is a "gun? what gun? state like up here) was having to walk the damned train KNOWING that the rule was "at least three applied" and trying to guess which one was loaded. :)
I was lucky though - only had four kick back on me as a motorman and they missed EVERY time. *WHEW!* ... them damned SMEEs ... lucky phuckers had them outside the storm door and they were jack-cranks instead of what WE had ... how COULD you go wrong and become a Soprano without benefit of obscenities? But yeah, for anyone who dislikes my "coarseness" from time to time, once upon a time, the term "motorMAN" applied, whatever your gland. Running the oldies WAS a serious gig. For WHOMEVER climbed up the grabirons in the morning and keyed the storm door to hit the breakers and walk the beech ...
Branford was FUN ... it was railroading without the bullskirt ... I cannnot TELL YOU how MUCH I appreciated an arnine without the qwap ...
And I though for sure you'd get all misty-eyed when you saw 1689.:)
I know that old timer was just as happy to see you, though.
Yeah, it was nice having an Arnine in my hands again. :)
Speaking of heavy weights. Is it an Interurban or is it a Rapid Transit vehicle?
Just as comfortable running under wire with a pole or from a third rail shoe.
And heaviest vehicle on the property. Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee #709
tops the scale at 105,000#, BMT 2775 = 96,320# and IND 1689 = 84,396#.
CNS&M 709 under wire from Milwaukee to Northern Suburbs of Chicago and
then via the L and third rail thru the loop. Speedy cuses also. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Seashore has three of them... 420 and 755 (passenger coaches) and 415 (dining car). I recall taking the 3-car train out about a dozen years ago. Today, we only run one at a time (420 is in the best shape) due to power considerations.
I've been at Seashore on one or two of those occasions, when the North Shore train would roll and the radio squealed to pull the poles on everything else, because the North Shore Train was going to operate. Also have rode 420 on occasion with either George Burdick or Maury Cott at the controls.
8-) Sparky
Like running a dual-quad V8.:)
Of course, had Shoreline managed to acquire a Big Orange South Shore car, that would have topped the charts weight-wise. As delivered, those hulks weighed 60 tons, and the ones that were lengthened during and after WWII tipped the scales at 75 tons. Even 2775 wouldn't stand a chance.
"... Big Orange South Shore car ... tipped the scales at 75 tons. Even 2775 wouldn't stand a chance."
And neither would the tressels :-(
We gotta DO something about that. I won't be satisfied until I pave new ruts on BOTH ends of the railroad. To NEW Haven and back! :)
Many have wished for the same, but I think we're locked in :-(
Unless we set up a ext. of the museum in the NH RxR yard ... problem is the O/H there would melt our trolley poles :-(
Would give a whole new meaning to Hi-V < grin >
Heh. Don't mind me and my delusions of grandeur, bro ... but yeah, while others may dream of where the N train may go tomorrow, to me where Branford's toys go is serious to the same insane nth degree. I *HAVE* 1.050 MEGAWATTS of substation, only TOO willing to expand that to 3.1 MW if only someone wanted to plug in, 8 miles of AVAILABLE track one way, 5 miles the other way BEGGING, "give me you arnines, your streetcars, your whole collection, ALL of them may draw power SIMULTANEOULSY INCLUDING YOUR B&O RELIC at the SAME TIME and as long as you don't collide, all will continue to move. :)
OK Kevin, STEP AWAY FROM THE KEG! Heh.
Kevin,
I always have a great deal of difficult understanding exactly
what you are saying in your posts!
Are you saying that you personally own a 1 MW 600 VDC substation?
We've got a big Niagara Mohawk substation on the edge of the property up here with plenty of "spare capacity" ... sorry for the confusion there. What I was saying is there's plenty of spare "watts for tots" here, more than sufficient to run an electric railway.
Kev is just itching to take a 10-car train of R-1/9s signed up as a D out for a nice spin on that stretch of track. Green signals all the way, no %$#@$@$ timers, controller pegged against the brass and the bull and pinion gears wailing away at A-440.
Nor the track, I suppose.:)
Of course, a Triplex is still heavier than a lengthened Big Orange car.
^^^"had Shoreline managed to acquire a Big Orange South Shore car"^^^
South Shore is mainline railroading, even if it came from an Interurban Traction Empire. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Now you KNOW you shouldn't have "leaked" that tidbit ... Unca Selkirk's handle fingers are twitching already ... got to insert key, push floor mushroom, full parallel or whatever we can get. You already know my passion for tons of fast moving metal ... now I *gotta* get my mitts on that even if I have to move it with a track crowbar. :)
I _wannit!_
^^^"I _wannit!_"^^^ No can have_it. It's OOS since the Northeaster
of December '93, when most of the property was under water. It has
salt water damaged motors, plus other ailments that have it sidelined.
8-( Sparky
Dang! Yeah, brine and copper don't get along well. Sorry to hear that. It's not like you can hit the JC Whitney catalog and order replacement trucks. :(
Well, at least 1689 was unscathed.
I remember seeing 709 running during a Trolley Parade in 1980. Took a picture of it, too. Now all I have to do is find it.
"Is it an Interurban or is it a Rapid Transit vehicle?"
That's an interesting question. In general, I would say that the basic difference between interurbans and rapid transit cars is the ability to load at street level. There are very, very few rapid transit cars really designed for street-level loading (the P&W "Strafford" cars among them, although they were later rebuilt without the feature), however all interurbans - right up to the present-day South Shore Sumitomo cars - are designed with steps so that they can load at street level.
Frank Hicks
At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms.
"At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms."
At least we hope so. "Watch that first step - it's a doozy!"
One thing I was going to mention was the P&W Bullet car... William Middleton considers these cars interurbans, as evidenced by the fact that they got part of a chapter in his excellent "Traction Classics: The Interurbans: Extra Fast and Extra Fare" book, but I still think that they're rapid transit cars because they don't have steps. The FJ&G cars, on the other hand, do belong in that book...
...I'm just pretty much talking to myself at this point, right? :-)
Frank Hicks
Almost... I'm still in the audience :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
^^^""At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms."^^^
I wonder where they ever conceived such a thought of center doors
on high level platforms only? Why didn't the BRT operate vehicles
with such an arrangement to Coney Island? And similar to the
North Shore Cars, Overhead or Third Rail!!! >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's a good question.
Well, the Bullets when they ran in Philly were in a suburb enviorment compaired to apartments & such in Brooklyn, Queens, etc. Route 100 is still like that ... sounds like a interurban operation even with all high platforms ????
"Well, the Bullets when they ran in Philly were in a suburb enviorment compaired to apartments & such in Brooklyn, Queens, etc. Route 100 is still like that ... sounds like a interurban operation even with all high platforms ????"
I agree that the P&W as a route is very interurban-like. There are other rapid transit routes that resemble interurbans - the Westchester Branch on the Chicago Rapid Transit, for instance, as well as the Skokie Swift (which really WAS an interurban route, or part of it anyway). However, my classification of the P&W Bullets as rapid transit cars has nothing to do with the route they ran on and everything to do with the design of the cars themselves. The Westchester and Skokie branches here in Chicago may have been interurban lines, but they were still operated with cars that were undeniably in the "rapid transit car" category. And to bring this back squarely on-topic... I don't know the NY system very well - any lines in NY (besides SIRT, already mentioned) you can think of that fit into this category? Jeff mentioned that there were some in the early days of the BRT.
Frank Hicks
Way back then Jeff is right the elevated cars had to switch from 3rd rail to trolley poles, and the car exits were similar to old LIRR, i.e. fliped up the platform to expose the steps. That line also went across some streets.
Early on (once they converted from steam to electricty) most of the system either burred the lines or put them up in the air. You also had some private ROW/cuts.
But back to the theme of this tread: rt to me means with in the city, interurban, to me, means between large cities.
So, the Philly & Chicago lines we've been sighting as examples would be interurban. Now what do you call them when they upgrade the line by adding high platforms ? A fine line to be sure.
Lets take another example: as more & more folks use M-N/LIRR what do you call them ... heavy rail, commuter, interurban, mass transit ?
Maybe interurban is a obsolete term, like "trolley" vs. "LRV" ?
How about a fly in the hand cream ... BRT, i.e. Bus Rapid Transit.
^^^"How about a fly in the hand cream ... BRT, i.e. Bus Rapid Transit"^^^
BLASPHEMY, but what you spect from a bus company employee? Excommunication from SubTalk ... send him to BusTalk forever!!!, better yet > "Riders Diaries". >GG<
8-) Sparky
HEY! I object! I understand that Unca Thurston's sucked in WAY too much bus exhaust, but hey ... he's fun to have around. Can I KEEP him? Huh huh huh? I promise to feed and water him EVERY day, and walk him, and hug him and keep him ... well, maybe OUTSIDE. :)
Well, if we don't excommunicate him from SubTalk, how about giving
him six months at CDTA instead of QST? Then you can care & feed him.
>GG<
8-) Sparky
Heh. I don't think he'd be mighty impressed with CDTA, but SHORE! We'll be happy to take him in. :)
Well, if your gonna water him every day, you should be warned that his brand of 'water' is Pabts Blue Ribbon. LOL!
He'll come back a refined man then ... you can get REAL firewater up here. :)
That was my Grandpa who wanted to know "what'll you have ..."
I'm a Shaffer man because the kids won't drink it < g >
They still MAKE that swill? :)
Got a keg of Warsteiner with your name on it, bro.
Yep, they still do. I thought Schaffer was discontinued years ago then was shocked recently to find it on the shelves of my local Pathmark. And if you are going "to have more than one..."
Gotta be Stroh's buying up brand names. I know both breweries (with their ORIGINAL microbes) are long gone. One of the nicer things about being so close to Canada up here is that the local beer distributor carries over 450 brands of beer. Takes more than a year to get around to drinking the same swill again. And some of them, though pricey, are VERY good. :)
Just don't name him George.:)
Now now Sparky !
The BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) concept has for one of it's goals to create private ROW for buses & high platforms that C-A-N lead to LRV replacing the bus W-H-E-N the city can come up with the money, i.e. it's a intrim step along the way ... at least it can be.
Therefore this was another of my on-topic posts !
^^^"Therefore this was another of my on-topic posts!"^^^
It may be on-topic on "BusTalk", this is the electrically powered
division and BRT is still Brooklyn Rapid Transit, no matter what
"Bean Town" calls the Silver Line. So it's off topic here, till
if & when they convert it to steel wheels. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I'd agree with your definition. What was the original
question? Is an IND subway car an interurban? Ahem, no,
not in anyone's wildest fantasies.
Middleton's Interurban book is very, very broad in what it
includes. It lists the NY, Westchester & Boston. How that
can be viewed as anything other than an over-engineered
division of the NHRR is beyond me.
Our Staten Island Rapid Transit car certainly falls on the
perimeter of 'rapid transit' Cars were often run single-unit,
and some of the stations were little more than makeshift loading
platforms. Still, no street loading.
The BRT gate cars _did_ do both high-level and street-level boarding
early in their careers (before approx 1922), with trolley poles and
third rail shoes. They also operated inter-URBAN in going
from Manhattan to Brooklyn (although by the time electric cars
were operating on this route, the two cities had been merged).
They started at a high-level elevated operation, then crossed
the lightly-populated areas of Brooklyn on the surface, finally
arriving at their popular destination through a dedicated, high-level
terminal facility. Yet, I've never heard of this operation called
an interurban.
Sparky,
the North Shore car isn't the heaviest thing on BERA rails.
SBK #4 is 114,000 lbs. Cornwall #12 ties 709 at 105,000 lbs.
Jeff,
But 709 is the heaviest vehicle on BERA rails that could be used for
passenger operations. The others are engines or locomotives? What's
PC for those electric power units in the 21th Century? >GG<
8-) Sparky
Droids. :)
(dreaded verbosity on the air - woohoo!)
The railroads seem to use either term, locomotive or engine. I've seen it written both ways on train orders.
Technically, the locomotive is the self-propelled piece of equipment that can move under its own power -- the power being the engine inside the hood (which is also called, for confusion's sake, the "prime mover").
"But 709 is the heaviest vehicle on BERA rails that could be used for
passenger operations. The others are engines or locomotives?"
Any standard electric locomotive is not an engine per se because it does not have an actual engine in it - it has no capacity to take solid fuel of any sort and convert it into tractive effort (as a steam engine or diesel does), which is what a true engine does. An electric locomotive can only take electric power already generated and convert that into tractive effort using traction motors. This is why operators of electric cars were called "motormen" and not "engineers" - there were no engines in the equipment they were running, only motors.
Frank Hicks
P.S. My apologies for not being Jeff! :-)
Picky picky picky ... just to let ya know though, THIS "motorman" appreciates the appreciation as to what the job is. AND enjoy your "Selkirk didn't know that" moments as well. :)
Frank,
With all the terminology that's now incorrect, you don't know what
to call them or the persons operating them. Motormen are now
Train Operators, I've also heard the phrase Subway Drivers.
A good friend who has 25+ at MNRR and is qualified for the Gennies,
but can't pick his hours & days off with same, when operating the
MUs calls them "kiddie cars".
But, it's always interesting explaining the difference between
Motorman, Operator or Conductor when the parents explain what you are at the Museum. Or better yet, why a trolley doesn't go Choo Choo. This board goes so OT so often, you just go with the flow. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Again I find myself agreeing 100%, and I'm not sure any
apology is needed :)
A locomotive is a railway vehicle that produces tractive effort
to move itself and other cars.
An engine is a thermodynamic device to convert heat energy into
mechanical energy.
In an electric railway, the engine is stationary at the powerplant.
Technically, the engine is only the equipment that receives
heat energy, in the form of steam from the boilers, and converts
it to mechanical energy to drive the generators or alternators.
Both reciprocating engines ("Corliss" style) and steam turbines
were used. Systems that used hydropower technically did not
have engines.
On a steam locomotive, the engine is that portion of the machinery
that converts steam to motion, e.g. the cylinders, connecting
rods, steam reverser, etc. The boiler makes the energy.
The functions of the engine and locomotive are inseparable
and therefore those terms are used interchangably.
On a diesel locomotive, the engine is the prime mover, i.e. the
big hot thing that burns diesel fuel and creates mechanical energy
to turn the generator/alternator. To talk of the entire vehicle
as "the engine" is, I believe, misleading. A diesel engine goes
nowhere unless it is part of a locomotive.
Jeff,
Thanks for the lesson. When, I posed the question, I was crunching
your jewels a bit. But it's good to get serious on occasion.
Your excuse is not required, I should apologize to you, but what the hey. This is SubTalk.
See Yaw in about 3 1/2 hours.
8-) Sparky
Hoping to get her looking like that again -- THIS summer!
It's almost time for a Pizza Painting party at BERA!!
We are going to celebrate big time when she's got that red paint on. I propose a formal ceremony with the car coming out of the Quonset and braking the red tape. The 3/4 Ton Crew will wear Tuxedos for the occasion. We could brake a bottle of champagne over the car as was done with the R-27 in 1960. LOL!
But seriously after the worst of work is over, there will be some small items to do.
-Stef
>>>The 3/4 Ton Crew will wear Tuxedos for the occasion.<<<
...and will YOU pay for the rentals....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean everyone doesn't own one?!?!
But he better buy good champagne :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll toast to that! LOL!
-Stef
Small item, like fix one operating end that is broke...
Feh ... we use the reverser key and mirrors. :)
LOL!
I'll do it, if it hasn't been done already. The weather is getting warmer, I'd like to have the car out and about.
-Stef
That's GRADUATE school car, bro. :)
Did anybody take any pictures of the exercise?
-Robert King
Not that I'm aware of. I wanted to bring a camera, but I didn't know if the instructors would permit that. I'm currently saving my nickels for a camcorder, though, that I hope to have before SubTalk Sunday. I'll find out from the instructors if picture-taking (at appropriate times, not to interfere with training) can be allowed. :-)
I'll find out from the instructors if picture-taking (at appropriate times, not to interfere with training) can be allowed. :-)
Don't see why not, but I'll leave the final say on that up to the more senior members of the instructional crew.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problem. Make sure you have your photo permit. Go over
to Willoughby St. and see Sybil :)
Just as long as them danged terrorists don't get to see the "big board" ... no flashes, please - except on the top of the car. :)
How would these cars be defined, Locs, engines, Interurbans, Commuters or what?
Wouldn't their operating environment as well as their design cross some of the grey areas of defination.
Maybe a little soften of the edges should be permitted in the vast arena of vehicles and service needs of rail trafficing.
Then you have Laws and regulations imposed by the Fed and States and local governments.
The Steamtown Trolley museum is running stock on the Laural Line.
Are these trolleys now interurbans, or trolleys on an interurban ROW?
If an RDC ran on it would it be an interurban or a commuter? Both?
avid
^^^"The Steamtown Trolley museum is running stock on the Laural Line."^^^
It's the Electric City Trolley Museum, even if it departs at the
Steamtown platform, they are seperate entities and not associated
except by geographical location. Also it's the Laurel Line.
^^^"Are these trolleys now interurbans, or trolleys on an interurban ROW?"^^^
The only car now in service at ECTM, is #76, which was a Philadelphia & West Chester Center Entrance Interurban Car, operating on an Interurban ROW. But the trackage is shared with the Lackawanna & Delaware for freight services. Also the Laurel Line, was unique when operating as it was low level boarding and operated under wire & third rail.
8-) Sparky
Freight is still running on that line? Still?
Thanks for the info.
avid
Yes, there are industrial sidings between the Steamtown Loading
Platform & the North entrance to the tunnel. So its shared trackage
rights. We rode in December 2001, so have not riden #76 thru the tunnel as yet.
Even after the ride on the center entrance, heard a whistle and hung around to see where it would go. Caught a 30 car movement on video with a CP engine right thru the Steamtown Platforms. >GG<
8-) Sparky
But the trackage is shared with the Lackawanna & Delaware for freight services.
It's the Delaware Lackawanna.
And that trolley museum would be THE BEST PLACE for subway cars on account of their MILE LONG tunnel! I went on a private charter of #76 last Fall, and going nb on the way back to he loading platform, the conductor told the operator to let her rip. That trolley got up to a good speed before slowing down for the exit curve. I would SO love to see a Redbird or two dashing through that tunnel. It would be unbelievable!
---Brian
Brain,
Thanks for the correction.
8-) Sparky
2 questions:
1. What will be the final assignments of the R62s(with car #s)?
2. Which cars are singles?
I don't know car specifics, but as far as I know for the time being, after all of the new trains are delivered and what not, the 1, 3, 4 and 7 will either have R62, R62A's or a combo of the 2.
The 4 will have mostly R-142, some R-142A, and a few R-62A. It's the only line that will have a mixed fleet (unless some R-33's are retained to fill service requirements).
I think the Singles start with 1901 and run up to 2159. I call them "Years of Our Lives" cars.
wayne
Is 1511-1515 an R62 set? This has yellow labels under its number plate. What does the yellow stand for? The 7th Av. lines have red underneath and the 7 line, purple. I distinctively remember this because this was the first set that crept up the n/b platform at Bowling Green on a dim, Saturday of 9-15-01, when the impact of 9/11 was at large. Also, the first time I rode a 7--- series of the R142A at Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. (We transferred from this 4 to the 6)
Questions (both in reference to 9/11/01):
1) When did NY open its bridges and tunnels again into and out of Manhattan?
2) How did the automobiles turn back after they closed all connections into Manhattan?
I don't know why 1511-1515 have yellow stickers, but these cars are indeed R62's.
Red labels are on the 1/9.
Blue labels are on the 3 and shuttle.
Orange labels are on the 4.
Yellow labels used to be on the 6 -- now there are some on the 3.
Purple labels are on the 7.
1901-1908, 1910-2155 are the R62A Singles-pieces of garbage.
#9708 7 Flushing Local
Are the linked R62A's pieces of garbage too?
ALL R 62As on the 7 line are garbage.........
Do you think are all R62As on the 1, 3 and 42nd Street Shuttle garbage too?
ALL R62As and R142/R142As are complete garbage. I hate those clunk-a-junk trains. R62As are very unsafe to be on the road. I was a standee on 1 of those bombajunks and almost got whiplash because of the extreme heavy braking. And they're too damn small. They're cattle cars!!!
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!! ENOUGH SAID!!!
#9768 7 Flushing Express
"And they're too damn small."
R-62A and R-142/142A cars are exactly the same size as Redbirds.
David
Nope-seats are smaller on the R62/R62A than that on the RedBirds.
R142/R142As seats seem to be the same but they just seem smaller than the RedBirds. REDBIRDS STILL RULE!
ENOUGH SAID!
#9469 7 Flushing Local
The comment I responded to seemed to refer to the size of cars in one group vs. the size of the cars in another group. Cars in both groups are exactly the same size. As to the seats, it's a matter of bucket vs. flat.
David
STOP...you're making too much sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
Go look at some MDBF stats before you make that statement. Hope you got a chance to ride a Redbird on the 2 or 5 during rush hours in the summers of past years. 'Cause with no A/C and everyone jammed up against each other, it made for some pretty packed trains, oh you know, like CATTLE CARS!
I sure did and I still hate those Cattle Car R142/R142A. I don't care about any MBDF.
They should send all of those crappy R142/R142A back to where they came from. THEY SUCK! What other trains that you know pull apart in service?
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!!
#8986 2 7 Ave Express
You really SHOULD seek help, just my opinion.
Peace,
ANDEE
Agreed. I don't get why people are so intent on keeping these trains in service when they're time is almost up. And MTA MCI 102-DL3 #1979, please don't tell me Redbirds can last 10 more years.
Some people just really can't let go can they? =\
I said by year's end the redbirds will be gone forever except the ones that will be used for work service. I will get my rides and pics while I can.
And FYI some redbirds look like they can last much longer but MOST of them NO-especially the ones on the 7.
The 2 redbird cars that looked beyond horrible were R33 9216 and 9217. But they're gone now so I have no complaints.
#9138 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
this is the real deal here folks a real nyc subway car pic below!
YEA THE REAL THING !!
Good pic!
The redbirds are still my favorite car on the IRT (the R32, R46, R68, and R143 are my favorite on the IND BMT) every time I get a R62 on the Flushing I feel disapointed.
i know just how you feel
i prefer the more traditional types of rolling stock too ....
Redbirds are going - DEAL WITH IT! R142s are here to stay! HA!
Whatever! I still hate those cars with a passion!
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THE BOAD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
>>> #1979 1 7 Ave Local <<<
I thought you hated R62/R62As too.
1979 is my birthyear. R62s are better than the R62A. R62A need some braking remodifications and they would be ok in my book. R62 I have no problem with those whatsoever.
#1555 4 Lexington Ave Express
#1979 7 Flushing Local
I sure did and I still hate those Cattle Car R142/R142A. I don't care about any MBDF.
They should send all of those crappy R142/R142A back to where they came from. THEY SUCK! What other trains that you know pull apart in service?
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!!
#8986 2 7 Ave Express
All classes of TA cars have had pullaparts from wooden el cars to your beloved dead birds came apart at one time or another. So what? Freight trains, the Titanic, tractor trailers, articulated joints in City Buses, anything bolted, welded, riveted, glued, bonded, even using bondo has separated. From Atlantic Avenue to the Atlantic Ocean these are history in the making. I wish they'd make history a little sooner. Redbird MDBF: May Develop Bottom Feeders
the bottom feeders are those who refuse to keep at least
.........ONE MUSEUM TRAIN .........
at least 2 sets of the best redbirds for future museum runs !!!!
( like the set of low-vs and the D triplexes
should have kept a 10 car set of r-1s and r - 9 s !!!!!!!!!
"All classes of TA cars have had pullaparts from wooden el cars to your beloved dead birds came apart at one time or another."
The R-44's had a pull apart problem in the late '70's IIRC. One happened on the Brighton Line where they were assigned back then.
Bill "Newkirk"
My favorite R44 pull apart story was on the A line at Nostrand Ave. Train makes a 10 car stop, doors don't open. T/O sees people running from the rear towards the front. He wonders what's going on! Some passenger tells him he only had 2 cars! Somewhere between there and Utica Ave., the train pulled apart 2x6. Fortunately the 6 cars went into emergency. The other 2 cars should have done the same but didn't.
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THE BOAD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THIS BOARD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
It looks like I found the official 'Stupid Post of The Day.' :)
Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!
#9300 4 Lexington Ave Express
Oh Lord, get a life. The RUSTbirds are dead . . . dead . . . DEAD.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thye're still alive and well on the 4 and 7. So what do you have to say now?
#9293 4 Lexington Ave Express
#9542 7 Flushing Express
Look here SUBWAYSURF-I'd like to ask you something: Have you got a look at the R142/R142As recently? Some of them look like they're 35-40 years old and they have body rot on them already especially the ones on the 4. They look sound and ride horrible for cars that are just about a year old.
At least the Redbirds are 35-40 years old and they do look their age. I agree with you that they are a dying breed. But compare them to the new subway cars we have, the redbirds look and run much better than our high tech cars. If you want to make them look newer the least they can do is maintain them and make them look cleaner.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to make a point that the way they look now, they'll be lucky to last 5 years.
In fact, I'll tell you that I rode 7671 last week on the 4. Why? IDK! But I did. Brakes were shot-car was extremely filthy and there were rot marks on it. Now this 5 car set came in only last year. Why does it look this bad already?
They can be a great addition to our subway fleet but only if they were maintained better than they are now-then I will accept the R142/R142As. Other than that I will only accept RedBirds as the best cars in the IRT Division until they're all gone.
#8888 4 Lexington Ave Express
#9543 7 Flushing Local
There is no rot on the 142's. The stains are not rust and they handle much better than the redbirds. Once winter is over and the car washes are fully back in business you will see the difference.
Well what else could it be? There are different colored streaks down the side of the cars and it is brown. So what could it be?
Hmmmm?
#8834 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Look at previous posts on the composition of the residue on the cars
its called " R-142 RUST - ROT " .....................lol !
Well what else could it be? There are brown colored streaks down the side of the cars. So what could it be?
Hmmmm?
#8834 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Could it be, oh I don't know - dirt?
lol..i guess we're on the same page
dirt/grime..i saw it too..when it rains the dirt runs down the side and dries up.
Dirt is everywhere in the system...EVEN ON REDBIRDS! Oh but you don't seem to whine about that...
Dirt.
RIGHT ON ..........well said .............!!
[Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!]
The "Redbirds" are inanimate hunks of metal, many of which are resting/rusting in peace underwater. They can't "get their revenge" - unless all that rust causes the fish to mutate into three-eyed railfans.
Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!
In the Atlantic. :)
I'm trembling with fear.
"Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!"
From the bottom of the Atantic Ocean ?
Bill "Newkirk"
i take the approach that the r-142s "R" 'breakin down already'.!!
brand new falling apart breakin' down ........
lol!
every train has initial teething problems. This doesnt seem to be half as bas as what I heard the R40 Slants went through. Some cars seemed to have fewer problems than others. The R143s actually passed their 30-day test in 30 days!
They cheated. At least one of those days, the train was running around anonymous -- not only were the announcements not working, neither were any of the signs. That's not the end of the world on a line that runs on dedicated trackage, but eventually R-143's will be running on the M (during the week), and an anonymous train at DeKalb is asking for trouble.
It was clear from posts here that NYCT really, really wanted that train to pass its 30-day test right away. I don't disagree with that desire at all, but standards were apparently lowered to force the train to pass, and I don't think that was a good idea.
What teething problems did the R-40's go through? I haven't heard any stories, aside from safety concerns between cars.
They had a lot of problems with those fiberglass fronts cracking.
I would tend to agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
yeah and thats what the riders though of the R12 thru 36 cars when they first came in.I PERSONALY MISS THE OLD R1/9 CARS,due to the fact I rode them most in my childhood...the rattan seats were comfortable and they were still fast in their old age.I also like the ''new cars'',because i just like em... they give good service,look good,and are fast....Look,the Redbirds did their jobs for 40 years,[R29/33/36]AND ITS TIME FOR THEM TO GO.there's nothing you or anyone else can do to change that. the 142/142a are here for the next 40 years or so,and the R62/62A untill 2020. so you dont have to like them...but you gotta ride'em,unless you buy a car....so stop this foolishness and grow up.
.........you aint no fun at all....................!
yeah I know....Believe me.. I like the post war stuff too... I grew up riding them,mostly on the Broadway/Jamaica line,where the R1/9 ruled untill 1977,and my father use to be a T.O years ago out of Coney Island[N Train and a few others],so I was fairly use to the ''old cars''.My Pop's was there when the R32's first came to NYC!!He was the one who told me all about ''those new fangled tincans''that start up by themselves[R44'S]AND CATCH FIRE FOR NO REASON[LOL]!!!!So on Saturdays when I use to ride with him,I got to see lots of trains...but my favorite of all time>>>>R27/30. Keep me informed on the progress of the Gold line....
oh yes the gold line !!
go to my webshots photo site paste this in ...
************************
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
*******************************
click on diesel trainz .....
*******
one shot of the gold line yards on the los angeles river
with the amtrak superliner blasting by
the yard is full of the p 2000 light rail fleet ready to run
and be tested !!
i agree with you on the pre world war 2 fleet wish i could have
enjoyed the pe cars here and that they would have never been
removed !
so i am a member of the orange empire museum here in peris ca.
and enjoy them on the museum grounds !!
my memories of the r 1 - 9 fleet was the ultimate experence
all railfan window all the time
the pre world war 2 cars were buit the best to me !
loved how they sounded too !!
i always tried to get to the front on those cars,and when i was with my dad.. I HAD TO STAND BY HIS CAB..or sit by it...
yea .........................sigh ..........!
Why? Only becasue you like Redbirds?
this is the real deal here folks a real nyc subway car pic below!
YEA THE REAL THING !! BUILT SO MUCH BETTER !!
WHAT!? Are you mad or what!? The R62A singles have RF window's you dimwhit!They are very good,way better than those crappy Redbird's! Face it man,those deadbirds have gotta go.40 years of service is good enough.It's time for the R142/142A's to step in and take over where they left off.If you love the Redbird's so much,go live with em in the Deleware River along with all the pretty fishies.But never say you hate a car class,that's an insult.I'm a buff just like everyone else here but....IMO,that's taking it to far.You'd never hear me say I hate a car type,just maybe some things that can be done to improve them.But hate them?No way.That's just plain wrong.
1901-1908, 1910-2155 are the R62A Singles-pieces of garbage.
#9708 7 Flushing Local
Care to explain why? By far, the 7's Redbirds are in need for replacement and the R62A IMO does just fine.
Change, no matter how inevitable, is hard for some people.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well, those people may need to try changing themselves.
---MTA MCI 102-DL3 #1979 -----
dont sweat these fools here join my msn group " redbirds "
and post your redbird pics there !!
******************************************
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
**************************************
paste this in your url click on join in and lets talk bout this !
Couldn't answer the first one. or actually be specific. my guess is that they will float all around the IRT at some point.
As for still single R62A's, you can find them on the 3 train and the 42 Street Shuttle. Sadly, I don't have actual car numbers. All Kawasaki R62's are 5 car linked with the exception of the cars destroyed in the Union Square derailment.
What I am trying to get is the exact car #s that will be on the 1, 4, and 7 trains(R62As only), and what configuration they will be in(5 car sets, or singles)
Isn't the 7's sets 2 5-car sets and 1 single?
From what I've seen, its one 5-car set and 6 singles.
Damn the 7's longer platforms...
Otherwise one of the cars would be isolated, with no way for passengers to move to a different car, unless the transverse cabs were folded up.
The 4 will have about 10 single R62A's from the 3 for 42nd St. Shuttle service, and the 3 will get all of 4's R62's. The 1/9 will retain its R62A's, while the 7 will replace all of its Redbirds with the single, and 5 car linked R62A's meaning that the 4 will have R62A/142/142A for its services.
1511-1515 have orange stickers-not yellow. They will soon be blue as they will make their move over to the #3.
#1515 4 Lexington Ave Express
As planned:
Quantitative totals are 365 on the 1, 45 on the 4, 404 on the 7 and 10 on the S. Fleet total is 824 (1909 is retired).
The single cars are 1901-1908 and 1910-2155 (254 total). Cars ending in 0, 1 , 5 and 6 between 1901 and 1965, except for 1905 and 1910, have a full-width cab at one end for S OPTO.
Extrapalation would be necessary to figure out the future assignments, but the #1 cars will definitely be 5-car sets; the 7 will be a mix and the 4/S likely just single units.
We could specualte that the 1 will get 1856-1900 and 2156-2475. That would put all the other unitized cars on the 7, namely 1651-1855 (205). Based on the pattern so far, we could also anticipate the last 199 non-cab singles going to the 7 (1952-1954, 1957-1959, 1962-1964 and 1966-2155). That would leave 1901-1908, 1910-1951, 1955, 1956, 1960 1961 and 1965 for the 4/S.
Time will tell.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks
I saw 1956 on the S last fall, fast asleep on Track 4. Took a picture of it - that's my birth year.
Ah, NYCSubway doesn't have any pictures of carsd 1980's to 1990's... Where are they today?
I have a photo of 1983 that I can scan.
Rode 1986 over the Thanksgiving weekend. Look on the 3 and Times Square shuttle. Some of them were on the 1 after 9/11. They all have blue stickers.
Sure they do. Look in the Car Roster under R38, R40. They definately have a few shots in the '80s and the '90s.
On the other hand, they don't have interior shots of the color schemes from the 1980s-graffiti and all.
If you read other correlating posts, I meant R62A's. Nice try anyway.
Oh, sorry.
I saw #1994 and #1998 on the #3 today.
wayne
One of Randy's story wound up as a one page article in April's Trains Magazine. It's the one on the track walkers and the "hole" (river tunnels).
Seems Trains is slowly realizing that subway are Trains too!
Seems Trains is slowly realizing that subway are Trains too!
If somebody wnats to write the articles, they'll consider them for publication. If nobody writes them, the cannot.
Elias
David P Morgan drew the line as Trains won't cover streetcars and urban mass transit. It seems the new team is willing to accept one or two subway articles.
How much of Fallen Flags can you cover in the current Trains? Trains now covers the Fallen Flags in Classic Trains (that is to say Fallen Flags from pre-Penn Central (or is it Conrail)).
Print magazines are becoming more and more irrelevant with time - and their subscription bases continue to shrink. In the electronics realm, I've seen five magazines I've subscribed to shrink down to one, and that LAST remaining publisher, Gernsback Publications just folded shop.
Adapt or die ... seems the "Trains" folks have answered the cluephone and have seen that there might be a few dozen subscribers they can get by expanding their base a little. This should be ENCOURAGED ... who knows? Maybe THEY might put a shovel to dirt and look for that ... ummm ... station. :)
Makes sense that Trains mag draws the line when it comes to Street cars and lightrail. Technically they ARE trains, but operational wise are closer to buses (with the exception of some lines that run street cars in coupled units).
Nice! Another notch on Randy's belt. Congrats to him! AND a boost for us subway fans as a mainline train publication finally sees the 'light' (of a Redbird sealed-beam headlight, of course) :)
Traction subjects have usually been the subject of specialized rail publications, not too many in general publications, as opposed to newsletters and magazines of clubs. Examples were Traction & Models and Electriclines.
However, Railroad Model Craftsman ran rapid transit oriented articles in the '60s, and Model Railroader had at least one article a few years later.
And let's not forget Railroad which carried Steve Maguire's excellent column every issue for many years.
To their credit Trains has started running a monthly segment dedicated to urban rail within the past few years. They even had a cover story about NJT, though that's commuter rail, not subway.
Mark
Is it an April Fool joke?
A short article on modeling a subway station (London Underground) and then sealing it up. Only the above the street part shows. A N scale tube stock is shown on the side. Where does one get a N scale London Underground model?
Are you sure it isn't a scale model of (gulp) 76th Street?
--Mark
Wash out your mouth with monkey oil for that one. :)
I forget where, but I have seen such N scale models....perhaps they were home-made, I don't know. (I saw them AGES ago -- it interested me,because I am into N scale myself.)
Do you have to work a lot with a magnifier and miniature implements?
We do... tweezers, 10/0 brushes for painting, modified insulin needles for gluing, and the occasional surgical laser for removing parts from sprues (OK, so I made that last one up... the rest is all true). Z scale is even more fun... ever ballast track with coarsely ground pepper? Mix the desired proportion of light and dark peppercorns before grinding in a hand mill and it produces a good ballast mixture of just the right size particles. Use spray adhesive before laying down the track, then ballast before the adhesive has the chance to dry; seal with hairspray (Aqua Net Ultra Hold works great), let dry for 24 hours, then clean the railhead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a an LT lodelling exhibition at the LT Museum Acton Depot next weekent. I will look for N gauge stock (N gauge buildings are definitely available).
Sounds line an April Fool joke to me. Railway Modeller did something that sounds very similar approx 20 years ago in April.
But for me there was an item of interest that appeared in the April
issue of Model Railroader, of which I am not a regular visitor.
I'm a three rail O gauger. But shown at the Nurenberg Toy Fair
was LGB's entry into the realistic USA Streetcar Market, with
NOPS #962, which still travels the rails of the St. Charles Line.
But, they didn't list a MSRP. It has this Trolleynauts attention.
And the funny thing is it was a sample copy that arrived Saturday
while I was at Branford with School Car and Mrs. Sparky brought it
to my attention. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Just saw an interesting subway scene on "The District" (Ch.2)- looked like a flashback since it was filmed in b/w - supposed to be NYC, station signed up "Times Square", looked more like Newark (with the iron fences), but it obviously was not since it had octagonal pillars and the tilework didn't match - a quick shot of a passing train revealed R62 #1354, and another train pulled in - a mockup obviously, a wannabe R32 or R38, with a cyclops sign "A" in its rear bulkhead (front and center like the current ones) but wearing an brightly illuminated bullet. A peek through the rear window showed a modified axiflo fan. Wonder where they filmed it.
As many episodes of "The District" I've seen, I have never seen one in which the Metro was featured or even briefly shown.
Oops another subway flashback, but nothing to report...
wayne
I taped the episode and ran the scene in slow-mo with the VCR in order to pick up details that I missed in "real-time". The Times Square logo was definitely a mock up, but don't know if it was a studio setup or disguised station. One thing I noticed is that the station looked like a local station with express tracks when the scene showed the R62's. I saw surprised to see a real train with the MTA logo. I couldn't see the route/destination sign too well. The scene with the train pulling away with the A bullet was really bogus and I was disappointed.
Jose
Back in 1994, Union Pacific Railroad was proposing commuter rail service from St. Louis west to Pacific and south to Crystal City, but never went through. Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?
"Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?"
Not really. Every couple of years someone floats the idea but it dies very quickly.
I just finished watching "The French Connection" on AMC and enjoyed seeing the great scene where Popeye Doyle chases the train on the el. Does anyone know where this scene was filmed and what line that was?
It was filmed along the West End Line in Brooklyn.
Also a part of the scene was filmed under the M line between Forest and Seneca Ave stations. There is a crash into a line of garages, that is Onderdonk Avenue in Ridgewood, under the M train.
The line was the West End line, the station was Bay 50 St., even though the R-42s have "N" end signs. The Pontiac street chase was filmed on location in Brooklyn. During the chase, a woman pushing a baby carriage almost gets slammed by Gene Hackman (who did his own stunt driving, according to "That's Hollywood!"). That part was REAL. The NYPD had closed off the street for the movie, but this lady got around that and crossed anyway. The in-car camera caught her scream (she wasn't hit) and the director thought it was so good he had her sign for it and printed it! No lie! (You can read about it in "New York in the Movies" by King & Lippmann.)
Anyway, the R-42/R-32 collision sequence was accomplished by filming the trains backing away from each other at slow speed, then printed for the movie backwards--at high speed. BTW like all TA cars, the ones in the movie are safety cars. The train should have gone BIE the second the T/O dropped dead. But y'know, suspension of disbelief...;-)
Thanks, JayZee BMT. I appreciate all the background information and, yes, I knew the train would have stopped when the T/O dropped dead.
Thanks again.
Thanks, JayZee BMT. I appreciate all the background information. It's a great scene and, yes, I knew the train would have stopped when the T/O dropped dead.
Thanks again.
The conductor was the actual conductor. The actor who was supposed to play the conductor didn't show up on the day they filmed that particluar scene. Unfortunately, he was uncredited and no one seems to know who he was.
The motorman was a real motorman. The T/A refused to allow an actor to operate a subway train. Apparently they sang a different tune when the original Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed.
If you have the DVD, as I do, you've heard Bill Friedkin's commentary on how many cars they went through in that chase sequence.
I did not know THAT! Cool. Thanks for that info, that's interesting.
The motorman's name was William Coke, who incidentally is credited. You can actually hear the conductor refer to him by name: "Coke, you all right?" Ironically he died of a heart attack while in a crew room, AFAIK.
I thought the T/O fell on top of the deadman, keeping it depressed.
Also, one of the collissions b/t cars was real and unintended with Gene Hackman driving. It was suposted to be a simple straight ahead drive, but some moron pulled out in front of him.
Oh well, it still looked cool.
That's the collision at Stillwell Ave. and 86th St. They kept it in the movie because of the realism.
Also, if you look closely at the train directly above Hackman during that collision, you'll see that it's a train of R-32s instead of the R-42s used in the interior train scenes.
I always thought that the motorman character simply fainted from fear and fright, but did not die. The "bad guy" character had already shot the conductor. He held his gun to the motorman's head, but never fired.
My impression was that the motorman had a heart attack from the fright. I'd have to see that scene again.
The T/O in that scene can be seen to clutch his chest, as if he were having a heart attack. Maybe a "sudden death heart attack"? They DO happen in the real world, so it's plausible that the T/O did drop dead.
Actually my favorite scene in "The French Connection" came in the shootout at the end of the movie when Roy Scheider (the good Dago as detective Russo) gunned down and wasted Tony Lo Bianco (the bad Dago as drugman Sal). I like it when my fellow Italians play good guys but not when they play bad ones. I still cringe when I hear of "The Godfather". To me those types are nothing but a pack of shits.
All subway cars have devices which would have brought the train to a halt if he actually had a heart attack. Even as a kid watching this movie I knew that.
Not necessarily. A number of years ago, 2 R46 cars were destroyed as they rammed the bumper block north of 179 St. because the motorman had a heart attack in the seat and fell forward onto the console holding the dead man in place with the weight of his dead body.
Those R-46s were equipped with the Cineston controller which slid up and down and whose handle rotated when released, unlike other, older cars whose handle is the traditional spring loaded up-to-release type. I wonder if a corpse could fall on a safety handle in such a way as to keep it depressed for an extended time. I think I'll ask my instructors that one at Branford next Saturday...;-)
No need to wait for next Saturday... remember, all but one of your instructors are SubTalkers :-)
On either of the "pure" safety cars in our regular service fleet (Montréal 2001 and Johnston 357), it would theoretically be possible for that to happen. Given the position of the controller handle when it is against the stop in the full parallel position (which we have blocked but which would have been there in regular service), however, I would consider it highly unlikely, as the handle is away from the operator. In any other position, the handle is likely to move, which would make its remaining depressed even more unlikely.
Our other safety car in the regular service fleet, Third Avenue 629, has a very sensitive foot-operated deadman; zero chance there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool! I did not know that. Thanks for an interesting answer. See you Saturday.
Well, once you pass your Branford test you MIGHT be able to get some handle time on one of the RT cars...you can practice getting a heart attack at the controls to test out this theory -- but I suspect that you have to be a rather tall and/or chunky corpse to do that :)
That's what I thought, too. But when I have my heart attack, I'll be reading my phone bill. ;-)
I actually have a photo of the master controller out of car #1054, showing that it was in the series position when the train hit the block. That was the old style R-44/R-46 master controller. The operator would slide the andle foward or back to accellerate or brake, while he held the spring-loaded handle turned 90 degrees.
I remember that controller well.
Not necessarilly. On most NYCT cars, the master controller handle requires about 9 Lbs. of force to depress the master controller handle and engage the dead-man's feature. It takes less than 2 Lbs. however to hold it down once depressed. A person collapsing foward onto the handle could easily hold it down.
Which is what happens in the movie. Unless the T/O was hooked into an EKG machine, there is no way the train would know he was dead unless he fell off the handle.
Makes you wonder if the dead man is really necessary. An alerter system is much more effective at guaging operator vigilance. Most models watch if the operator moves the throttle, applies the brake or uses some other systems. If nothing happens on any of the monitored systems, an alerter whistle goes off and the operator must acknowledge else the train goes BIE. On the NYCSubway with its near failsafe triparm and timer system, an alertor vigilance system could replace the deadman device and save on the associated arm/hand fatigue.
Doesn't that make the "dead man's device" pointless?
Not pointless - just not as effective as desirable as a "DEAD MAN'S FEATURE". In an emergency, most operators find it easier to let go of the handle instead of pulling for an emergency brake application.
King & Lippman apparently got it wrong about the woman. That was stunt actress Lora Mitchell, who was interviewed for the Fox Movie Channel docu "Making the Connection" (it's on disc two of the DVD). Mitchell tells of being terrified of Hackman's driving! Also, much of the driving in that chase was by stuntman Bill Hickman.
You sure that stutman wasn't Rich Hackman, Gene's brother? That was the case for Gene Hackman's stunt scenes in his next big film, "The Poseidon Adventure".
AFAIK Hackman did most, if not all, of his own driving in the chase sequence.
In both of the documentaries on the Fox Five Star DVD, Bill HICKMAN is credited for doing much of the stunt driving. In fact, director Friedkin and others claim that they hot-shotted Hickman's portions of the chase - meaning they drove like crazy through traffic and filmed WITHOUT the city's knowledge or approval. It sounds far-fetched, surely...
Hackman did do some of the driving...he was behind the wheel when the car was tagged by the guy in the white sedan, as well as the baby-carriage bit with Lora Mitchell.
The reason that chase is in the movie is producer Philip D'Antoni, who also did "Bullitt". He was hell-bent on topping Steve McQueen's legendary chase, and by the ghost of Augustus Belmont, he DID it!
If anyone is interested, as well as awake enough, the French Connection will be replayed on AMC at midnight here on the east coast.
Any video captures of the scene? I'd like to see some.
How the hell did they tear that "dirty car" down and rip it to shreds, strip down the motor and put it together with no tears and nothing out of place? That part of the movie was pure Bull@#$%.
You need to but the DVD and listen to Bill Friedkin's commentary. He admits that tearing a car apart and putting it back together that quickly (it actually took several hours) is pushing things a bit, but that really did happen. That police garage was fully equipped and had every conceivable spare part on hand. They could have manufactured an automobile.
PS, when I worked at 46, the FDNY shops at Red Square in Sunnyside ( the shop is always surrounded by apparatus parked on the street waiting to be fixed) they had COMPLETE fire engines, in parts and pieces, in stock. They could assemble a spare truck if they had to, and they have home-built specialized pieces in the past. I think the TA's car shops could have built its own cars like Third Avenue did, if they wanted to. Stuff like this IS possible!
That was a REAL police garage BTW. As well, IIRC the head mechanic in the film was indeed a real NYPD Mechanic...
As a matter of fact, he was the actual mechanic who found the heroin in the actual series of events. The late Irv Abrahams. Even Bill Friedkin points out in the commentary that this wasn't an actor.
Let's try this again. Sorry for the typo in my first post.
You need to buy the DVD and listen to Bill Friedkin's commentary. He admits that tearing a car apart and putting it back together that quickly (it actually took several hours) is pushing things a bit, but that really did happen. That police garage was fully equipped and had every conceivable spare part on hand. They could have manufactured an automobile.
Or you can watch it.
Just heard of an idea being floated to allow LIRR/MNRR riders to travel for the price of a token (1.50) from stations within NYC during the off-peak hours. I for one think it's a good idea, what are your thoughts on this plan? Would we need to resurrect some of the closed stations in the city in order to make this float?
wayne
You find a way to connect those 7 abandoned LIRR stations on the LIC line into Manhattan directly and it'll be the best! Even if the subway takes over this line? Question: If there is unification, does the MTA get the right to run subways over railroad or former railroad tracks as it wishes?
My principal plan for the LIC-Lower Montauk branch would be for the LIRR to use it to move passenger trains into a new WTC terminal (moving south from LIC to Ave C in Manhattan)
Another idea (Presuming a new subway line on NORTHERN BOULEVARD connected to either Broadway or to Second Avenue via the 63rd Street Tunnel) would allow the transfer of the Roosevelt Avenue Line to the BMT (Re-route the RR on to it) which would leave the (7) looking for a new route. Enter the Lower Montauk Line. To be used by the subway would require a new elevated structure on the ROW leaving the street tracks available to the LIRR/NYARR for their continued use.
I am looking at a small number of stops mostly near the Expressway, where it may be possible to build some large park-and-ride facilities. This line would follow the LIRR routing to WOODHAVEN BLVD where it would turn south followning the route to the ROCKAWAYS, and replacing the (A) train on that service.
Most of the (7) trains would short-turn at the last Park-and-Ride facility, probably at Woodhaven Boulevard, but adequate service will continue out to the Rockaways. While this alignment would be much longer than the existing route to Flushing, it would have about half as many stations, which would provide for a very quick ride.
If the structure between Woodhaven Boulevard and LIC were four tracks wide, then two of them could still be used by the LIRR for access to the WTC while the other two (physically separated) would carry the (7) train to Times Square.
I shall create a map to this effect and post it on my website sometime in the future.
Elias
Ron provided the link to the Newsday story in the thread on Larry's LIRR-Lower Manhattan plan, while my response is here. To sum it up, a good idea, but some pol a year or so down the line if it's implemented is going to push to expand it to all-day, and that will screw everything up.
Check out these M7 Photos I found on a yahoo group!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling!
To paraphrase David Greller in "New York City Subway Cars": The artist's conception can be very different than what actually rolls into the station...but way cool photos!
They're not loading for me as this time. Just red X's... Maybe the server is loaded? It is Yahoo! after all...
Ya Maybe, Everybody saw the pics.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I cant... It seems as if 3 of the 4 who tried cant see them
I have same problem-can't load any of the pics. Please try again.
Thanks.
#7052 LIRR
Me too!
Me three
Same problem here, just the litter red "X's".
If you can't view them, just E-Mail me and I will send the photos, BTW-they are not mines, I found them on LIRR Yahoo Group and thought I would share with all of you to see.
For those who are interested I posted an article that appeared in the 1936 B.M.T. Monthly about the PCC Car on my site - enjoy!
Isn't it ironic that they show pictures of Fiorello LaGuardia driving the PCC? Wasn't it he who wanted to get rid of all the trolleys?
Yes, and he worked to make certain the BMT couldn't get its order of 500 PCC cars. If they had been delivered, the entire picture of transit in NYC and the nation might have been different.
Try to pull a train from National Airport to Crystal City with a derailed car? How DUMB can you get? Was the controller high or drunk or something? Seriously, tat makes you just want to find the guy, slap him, and yell "Stimpy, you EEEDIOT!"
I take it Metro will do some inspections on the third track at West Falls Church now, especially since that's supposed to be used frequently when and if they start running trains to Dulles Int'l Airport. That also means to check the center tracks between Dupont Circle and Farragut North, west of Grosvenor and east of Silver Spring on the Red Line, and the third track between Mt Vernon Sq and Shaw-Howard Univ. on the Yellow/Green lines.
Pocket track and layup track... is there a difference? I know the terminology refers to a third track between two "regular" tracks, often used to lay over or store trains... but sometimes, the third track stub ends (What the track west of Franconia-Springfield would be should an exstension south ever be opened), and other times, it merges back with the two tracks (Stadium-Armory, Grosvenor, Silver Spring, the spot between Haddonfield and Woodcrest on PATCO, and just west of Spring Garden on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line). While I'm on that, I also don't know any official terminology for three-track island platform stations like PATCO's Woodcrest or WMATA's West Falls Church and National Airport stations. And it seems the designs for Rosslyn, Pentagon, Wheaton, and Forest Glen stations utterly defy definition.
A pocket track is a layup track.
The only center tracks used to carry revenue passengers on a REGULAR basis are the tracks at West Falls Church and National Airport. Avoiding use of the West Falls Church track is possible but could possibly cause delays. The National Airport situation is not avoidable if they are working on the canopy. That work has been suspended. Passengers do not ride the pockets at Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mount Vernon Square on a regular basis. The track at Farragut North was used when the Red Line terminated there and again when the Green Line Commuter Shortcut ran, but never carried revenue passengers on a regular basis. Even if trains had to use those tracks during trackwork for a weekend, it would be OK. The issue at the airport was that the tracks were susposed to be in use EVERY DAY for several MONTHS on a regular basis. Even if multiple weekends of work required use of the center track, weekend services are not that frequent.
I do not know the purpose of the Franconia third track. It is currently used for storage but could be a provision for if the Blue Line were further extended. That way, trains could easily be turned there.
Rosslyn and Pentagon are built the way they are so trains don't cross at grade when the lines split. Make those stations single level and you would have a standard island platform. Forest Glen and Wheaton were done that way to save money I believe.
You coming on the field trip in April?
I wish... I'm supposed to be moving sometime this spring, albeit NOT out of Philly. If I can scrounge up the cash to go, I'll go. I haven't been to my favorite getaway city in almost a year.
I know of why Rosslyn and Pentagon were done that way (Wheaton and Forest Glen... your guess is as good as mine). I'm just unsure as to what name you'd give to such a platform design. "Split-Level Island" sounds good for Rosslyn and Pentagon. Wheaton and Forest Glen... "Excessively Large Island". Forest Glen also may have been done that way because of the elevator-only exit. You need plenty of room when dealing with that many elevators.
Hey, here's a question. If Metro knew they'd only turn trains back from one direction at Grosvenor and Silver Spring, then why did they make the pocket tracks accessible from both directions? Especially Silver Spring, which has double crossovers west (actually south by geographical direction) of the station. Moreover, why did they put Stadium-Armory's pocket track so far east of the station itself?
The pockets at Silver Spring and Grosvenor enable trains to use them almost as diamond crossovers. A train can use the pocket to switch from track 1 to track 2 in both of those locations. A stub track would not be able to do that.
Not sure why the Stadium-Armory is where it is. Might be to reverse trains coming from the New Carrollton to go to Addison and vice-versa so that they don't block other train traffic.
It is probably from when Stadium-Armory was the terminal for the Blue Line when it first opened, as when Farragut North (and later Dupont Circle) was the terminal for the Red Line. Another use is laying up special put-ins for major events at RFK (they have done it on occasion for soccer games and that car race last year).
Or kind of like the Yellow Line above Mt. Vernon Square
I was referring to its location, at the D&G Junction itself instead of closer to the Stadium-Armory Station. The similar pockets, at Silver Spring, Grosvenor, and Mount Vernon Square, are right next to the station. Stadium-Armory is not. R6 asked why, I was offering my hypothesis.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory was not in service when phase II opened back in 07 1977 trains were crossed over at the interlocking at Eastern Market The same situation existed when the Yellow Line service started between the lower level of Gallery Place and National Airport back in 04 1983 the crossover at the north end of L’Enfant Plaza was used to crossover trains.
You are absolutely right in regards to the Yellow Line, but in the case of Stadium-Armory and 1977, this was only done as a temporary measure---some time in early 1978, before the New Carrollton branch opened, they did use the pocket track on the bridge beyond Stadium-Armory. If memory serves me, they started using it at the same time they were testing trains for the New Carrollton Branch, which opened in November of the same year.
I know for a fact that the two week period prior to 11 20 1998 opening of the New Carrollton extension trains were run beyond Stadium-Armory during the normal two week preopening shakedown. As for using the pocket track during testing, I don’t think so. After completing exceptence testing and WMATA taking over the operations from the contractor but prior to two week preopening shakedown I don’t recall that happening. I could be wrong.
A number of the segment I got sneak looks at by riding trains during two week preopening shakedown. This was back when I lived in DC and I new most of the train operators by name.
Ah yes, those were the good 'ol days----when you could watch it all as you went up & down Kenilworth Ave.----the good 'ol days.....
Wheaton and Forest Glen were built the way they were built because of the geology of the bedrock and to lower costs. The bedrock in this part of Montgomery County Maryland is very different the bedrock west of Rock Creek Park.
The pocket track are not just for making short turns. They are also used to stage what WMATA calls gap trains. Gap trains are put in service to replace trains that encounter in service failures that require them to be taken out of service. They are also used to store bad order trains that are limping back to yards. This is why pocket track are accessible from both ends on both mainline tracks. As was said by WMATAGMOAGH it can also be used as a crossover.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory at D and G junction internally known as D98 is there because this is a single interlocking plant and was the most convenient place to put it that was on a tangent with a 0.35% grade. All pocket tracks are on a 0.35% grade.
The third track at Springfield-Franconia is just that a third tail track for storage of trains. The now under construction Largo Town Center station will be configured the same way as the Springfield-Franconia tail tracks along with a small maintenance building.
Apparently, back in 1997, crybabies were protesting the uniticket because they didn't ride the subway and thus wouldn't be getting the discount.
I was just visiting an excellent site about some of the abandoned stations on the London Underground. On one of the pages (http://www.pendar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tube/Other.html), the author shows a shot of either a Paris or Madrid subway station and compares it to a typical Underground station. The author calls the Underground station "shameful" and an "embarrassment" in comparison to the Paris/Madrid station.
I guess the author has never seen some of OUR "finer" subway stations! I think NYCT would love to have a station as modern looking and clean as the one shown in the Underground photo!
The entire site is really good. Go visit it to see how the Underground deals with its abandoned stations. Some very interesting stuff there.
Or how about comparing Chambers Street BMT to anything in the Moscow subway.
It's a Paris metro station in the picture, the brand spanking new Line 14. Obviously he's never been here:
(Paris metro line 10 at Michel-Ange Auteuil)
P.S. (And Simon Billis can confirm this) that station really IS that dark. It's not just a poor photo.
Dave's right if you want to take Paris Metro pictures you need either mega fast film or a floodlight.
Simon
Swindon UK
Maybe we can arrange a trade with the French. They send us their new train and we give them the Montague Tunnel in exchange. The French would love it since it would make them feel right at home.
Rat filled? Filthy? I give up how will they feel at home?
What's your guess as to what I feel for the French right about now? Figure it out and you'll have your answer.
Jeeez, you're making it sound like Quebec's located in your country!
-Robert King
France, Robert, France. You know the frogs, Pierres, surrender champs, ungrateful ones?
Reminds me of the American who asked the the Frenchie if he spoke German. Why no, said the Frenchie. Thanks, said the American.
Yeah, I know - the same people who caused the Quebec mess way back when that we're stuck with now. France isn't too popular here either, sometimes.
-Robert King
You can also force it out from logic, too. That's a farily good sized centre platform station and the only lighting is from single tube fluroescent lamps that are placed at intervals instead of in a continuous row, so the station couldn't be very bright.
-Robert King
You did have to pick the worst station in Paris to make THAT point!
Note the track where short turns on line 9 could (and don't) take place fenced off on the right.
Lol, well look at it this way, some people chose to mention Chambers Street/BMT as a symbol of New York's stations. I think mosty people would get scared off if they were shown a photo of Chambers Street, and were told this is what New York's stations look like. Of course at this time, New York is doing very well in station condition. They are slowly renovating many of them, little by little.
(from NYCRail.com)
ALthough, I've never ridden Paris's subwya, I have heard that is very cave/cavern like, and even worse than some of New Yorks cave-like stations.
That's not a fair photo. That's the closed platform. I do agree, though, that if NYCT is not going to seal that platform up (and I hope they don't), it should be renovated or at least cleaned up.
That's not a fair photo. That's the closed platform. I do agree, though, that if NYCT is not going to seal that platform up (and I hope they don't), it should be renovated or at least cleaned up.
Yup, of course thats's the closed platform. But remember that that track is the ACTIVE track in use, that ceiling is the on top of the ACTIVE track, and the platform on the left is the ACTIVE platform, so that disaster in the photo is all in clear view to passengers.
I hate loosing history and I love the abandoned platform, but there is no excuse that paying passengers should have to look at that shamble. Columbus Circle on the A has an abandoned platform in clear view, and that doesn't look like that. They really need to either renovate that platform for historical purposes (which would be great), or just seal over with a new tile wall. It is a fair photo because that mess is all in clear view of passengers and a working station.
This reminds me of the abandoned Spring Garden station on the Broad-Ridge spur in Philadelphia. There's scarcely a square milimeter of it that isn't covered in grafitti. The abandoned PATCO Franklin Square station isn't as bad, but it doesn't look good either.
Mark
Luckily, they do clean the grafitti off of the abandoned platform at Chambers. After all it is in clear view of the in use part of the station. It's still a shame how they keep the platform and let it fall apart.
Well speaking of grafitti, how about abandoned 91st St and 18th St! At least these are not working stations, or included in working stations - just in the tunnel at this point.
I'm not sure whether I should be more amazed at the tenacity and audacity of the grafittists who crawl through the tunnels to paint the stations, or the fact that the transit agencies who actually have the keys to get into the stations the easy way can't seem to manage to get in their to clean it up!
Mark
Hehe, yeah it does take big ones to crawl through the tunnels to do this. When I went on the abandoned station tour at 18th street some years back, there was some fresh grafitti on the wall high up and a ladder there! These guys dragged a ladder through the tunnel to get to 18th Street to "do their thing"!
91st Street is definitely the worst with respect to grafitti over any of the abandoned stations I've been in or have seen photos of.
That sure is a lot of work for grafitti that no one will ever see except whizzing past at too high a speed to really make anything out, least of all the tag of the proud grafittist. ONe has to wonder what the motive is. Just to prove how much of a man you are to a small band of peers who may or may not be able to verufy your claim of having tagged the station?
Mark
I've seen these pictures of 18th St. & 91st St. stations for quite awhile on the Subtalk site and they always bother me. Here are two never modernized contract I IRT stations - which could be kept up as landmarked listed properties - stations that almost 100 years later still appear very close to the way they were in 1904* (minus the original change booth, turn of the century signage, ticket choppers, and fare control area exit gates)- and the walls are just trashed from one end to the other with spray paint.
Everytime I see these photos I think - give me a vest, some kind of hose, plenty of hot water a face mask and strong cleaner, and I'll wash the @#$% walls myself!
* except for 91st St's northbound side - does it still have the tank and piping structure mounted on the platform?
I agree with that. 91st street is considerably worse than 18th Street. That part of the mosaic when I took that photo in the above post was the only part of the wall that wasn't strewn with grafitti. (That was 1996, who knows know). It really is a shame.
There was some talk last year about turning 18th Street into a bar, but I haven't heard anything about that recently. Both 18th and 91st street are almost like time capsules. Amazingly, most of the original 1904 features are still there, just covered in years of grime, and grafitti.
Thankfully, they have not allowed the jewel of the system, City Hall, suffer that indignity. In the photo below, you can see that grafitti does make it there, but I guess they do remove it right away. It's a real shame, however, that they will not be restoring it for it's 100th birthday in 2004, it does need some help also.
Theoretically it IS fair, because the right hand track on the Paris photo isn't used too.
Of course at this time, New York is doing very well in station condition. They are slowly renovating many of them, little by little.
I do agree that they are doing a good job of renovating many stations, but they need to clean them better, or they look like the renovation never happened. If you look at many of the stations that have been renovated over the past few years, you will notice that the floors are disgusting! For example, I was on the B'way-Nassau station platform a few months after the floor had been re-tiled. One of the tiles had broken and was replaced the day before. The color difference between the same two tiles was shocking! The new tile was bright white, and the slightly older(by a few months only), renovated tile was dark grey already. What's the point of renovating these stations if they are not being maintained properly?
This is not a criticism of the cleaners and power-washer crews. They use the tools they are given. Why aren't stronger cleaning supplies and better cleaning equipment used? Power-washing and a mop only go so far... A machine with brushes and stronger cleaning fluid would do a much better job on the floors.
It makes me sad every day to see those floors.
I do agree with that. Maybe it is a cost-cutting measure lately, because it does seem that some stations are less clean than they were cleaning them a few years ago. (Although much better than many years ago). Then you also have some neighborhoods that actually have protested renovations at some of their stations. I remember reading that the neighborhood was against a recent renovation at 110th Street and 116th street on the 1, which included special rooms to keep cleanign equipment. (they weren't necesarily protesting the room, but I guess the renovation). I don't understand why (I guess they were thinking of the monstrosity at 137th Street) because most recent renovations have been done very tastefully. And they certainly could use a room to store cleaning equipment, even if it means slight modification to the station.
Renovations have begun. There are temporary blue plywood walls at 103rd and the white tiles have been stripped along part of each platform at 110th and 116th.
Thanks for the info. I guess the MTA has won the neighborhood over by reminding them it will tasteful renovation, probably along the lines of 33rd Street (hopefully). I guess I would feel the same "fear" thinking of having "original" stations and then imagining they would turn it into 137th Street.
One of the problems with the renovations/cleanliness is that many of the renovated stations now have floor tiles with a very porous surface. Dirt sticks to those tiles and needs to be scrubbed off. Most of the stations that have non-pourous, shiny tiles are much cleaner. I wonder why those porous tiles were chosen in such a dirty environment?
People are less likely to slip and fall on rough surfaces. I agree, they don't look good for long, but I guess it's a compromise.
Mark
HEH, I have a brother in the tile business...heh.
Peace,
ANDEE
(Most of the stations that have non-pourous, shiny tiles are much cleaner. I wonder why those porous tiles were chosen in such a dirty environment? )
I know many cases of near falls on the shiny tiles. The MTA probably realized they would be sued to death if they continued with them.
Yeah, the "new" shiny tiles were considered by many people to be a hazard, particularly when on an angle and/or when wet. At Union Square they added some traction strips along sloped areas. At Chambers/WTC, they tiled only level floors with the shiny tiles, and later tiled in the sloped portions of the corridors using the rougher tiles.
The rougher tiles are much better for walking, but get dirty REALLY quickly. When they were installing them on the ramps in Broadway-Nassau in phases, you could tell which tiles had been installed more than a week ago because they were already filthy, while the ones installed in the last week were still pretty new-looking. Also, the shiny tiles seem to be exceptionally good for scraping gum off of (something that seems impossible with the untiled concrete floors, and difficult but still possible with the rougher tiles).
They shoud've kept the concrete floors. Much lower maintenance.
They kept them at Tremont on the Concourse line.
Peace,
ANDEE
The shiny ones don't stay clean, either. Been to 7th Avenue lately? Not only are they filthy, they don't even sit flat there.
Hey, the ones at 34/6th, IND platform, can get slippery as hell when it's humid. And they're "textured"....Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very true. I think the "granite" looking tiles do look fairly descent. Stations like Sutphin on the Archer line look terrible though with the sort of tiles they have there. That station did not age well at all.
That's not so bad. Its old and dark, but clean. It looks better than Grand Central on the 7, and that's after the renovation!
"The author calls the Underground station "shameful" and an "embarrassment" in comparison to the Paris/Madrid station.
I think NYCT would love to have a station as modern looking and clean as the one shown in the Underground photo!"
I'm a little puzzled by Mitch45's statement - there isn't really a photo of a London Underground station at the URL he gives. There are a couple of pictures of old tube rolling stock (1938 stock, which wasn't running all that recently, despite what the site says) in a couple of surface stations, but those photos are really there to illustrate the trains, not the stations.
I'm sure we could find some very attractive LU stations (some new, as on the Jubilee Line Extension, and some refurbished), and some pretty dreadful ones. I'm not sure what all this proves, except that the New York, London and Paris systems are large and old, and you can't refurbish a large system all at once. Madrid's is smaller and it seemed pretty old and grungy when I rode it about seventeen years ago - and I liked it that way! - but no doubt it's been modernised since then.
Continental Europe does have good examples of modern railway station design, and rail architecture on these offshore islands is perhaps not so innovative. I think Luton Airport Parkway station (built about three-four years ago) looks like a modern continental station - appropriately, since I pass through it en route to low-cost flights to the continent! Similarly, the new Eurostar station currently under construction for the Channel Tunnel trains at London St Pancras looks as if it's going to be pretty interesting, as it grafts very modern design in the extension on to the historic Victorian building.
I'm sure we could find some very attractive LU stations (some new, as on the Jubilee Line Extension, and some refurbished)
Attractive, but not as practical as many other stations (eg Oxford Circus).
You have to scroll to the bottom of the page I linked to. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.
Just one word:
SEPTA
Mark
Major article (four pages in online version)by Wendell Jamieson in Sunday Times on the NYCH, including some history, some day-to-day operations, some people stuff, three photos and a small map
Riding the Bounding Rails
It is strange to see train tracks running into buildings, which look more like dead ends than destinations. The Cross Harbor tracks, which are also leased from the city, were cobbled together in 1984 from those belonging to two dying dock railroads. They run along First Avenue, and spread out into several warehouses. They go east on 41st Street to Second Avenue and then turn north again, literally cutting through the corner of one warehouse.
Thanks. I'm gonna have to read this later, or in the paper when I get home.
---Brian
Very nice article! I got a laugh when it said that the line's VP is probably the only person in New York who actually needs a Land Rover.
Great Article. I think the 65th st. yard float is older than 3 years. Looks rather decrepid, also.
At least those tracks serve a purpose.
Yes, the as-yet underutilized concept of floating freight is a fire waiting to ignite. It's such a good idea I'm stumf****d as to why we aren't seeing endless floating transfers day and night. The sight of `em crossing should be as fixed a sight as the Verrazanno Bridge, yet another sign to a returning Brooklynite that he has indeed come home again.
Think I'll look into getting some of that stock....which would be the first ownership of such on my part. Put my money (ha ha) where my mouth is....
CP and New York & Atl were/are ready to use it a lot more, however I believe CP has gotten cold feet & found it cheeper/just as cheep to sent freight South the l-o-n-g way :-(
CP and New York & Atl were/are ready to use it a lot more, however I believe CP has gotten cold feet & found it cheeper/just as cheep to sent freight South the l-o-n-g way :-(
This is good pre-publicity for one of my Waterfront Railway Tours...
Interesting that the author didn't take note of the CONDITION of the tracks in the street...some places along the route it's almost easier if they ran trains w/o rails. LOL!
How's about you, me and Jeff get together and demonstrate some locomotive steering wheel technology to these guys? :)
No problemo...
Seriously, you should SEE what CSX accepts for rails up here. Ever woner why I wasn't sheeting a peekle about somce certain mainline rails in a secure, undisclosed location that had crescent moons out of their bottom profiles that 1689 ran over again and again and again in (ahem, kaff) "revenue?"
If I was a hardass, I would have dumped the train before you coulda said, "you bet yer life" ... but I know the dynamics of iron. As long as they're in gauge, they'll qwap the bed AFTER I've run over them. :)
Just for the comparison, I ran an SD-80MAC onto a siding in Voorheesville, NY and spotted an OUT OF GAUGE in my face and BIE'd in time. Conrail. So ... can't spot the train, and can't cross all 12 wheels across the IG to clear ... GENIUSES from Philly comes up, throws it into reverse ... ONE FOOT of travel and ON THE GROUND. Hahahahahaha ... whoops. :)
I can spot metal. DYING phucking ART. GEEZ ...
Should have added, unless someone gets antsy about me, that if I felt in the LEAST bit that the "rail defects" (multiple) that I spotted were *ANY* risk, ya know I'm imbued with genuine NYCTA paranoid (you and others SAW how I was about "safety, deadly serious, and adherence to proper motoring") mindset - there was NO danger to the "mooned feet" of the rails, KNOWING that if a rail actually BROKE, Unca Jeff's ANAL track circuit measurements would have dropped the ball on EVERYTHING toute suite ...
Saw them, went "tsk tsk" and grabbed the controller with a firm hand ready to throw the brake handle to 5:00, or just let go of the throttle. But as expected, the rail HELD ... again, and again, and again. AS EXPECTED ...
Wish Branford gave more credit for the SUPERB track conditions to the FACHES I see routinely credited for shaping up - *you*, Unca Thurstojn and a few other regulars. WISH I could get down there more often than I have ... I feel *SO* useless all the way up here. :(
Thanks for the Kudos! BTW, I was at a train show this past weekend in Jersey and I picked up a book on recognizing rail defects...it was published by the 'experts' -- Sperry Rail Co. I'll certainly be using it as a reference tool.
Heh. It'll only make you CRAZY! CROWNING is serious stuff, and can make a rail failure UNDER your "car" ... crowning is longitudinal failure, and it's pretty serious ... from out of nowhere, you have 5% of the iron to carry the weight of ... whatever. Nope, GROUND. Take some wood with you as a souvenir if you must. CRUNCH. :(
The DEFECTS I spotted were ALL *TA EMERGENCY* simply because they were THERE, but I have faith in Unca Jeff's ANAL impedance checking and other safeguards. And before JEFF thinks I'm picking on him, NAH! SIGN OF RESPECT! I *know* a crack or bre4ak would register. I've been nothing less than OVERWHELMED by Jeff's knowledgeee, awareness, proofs of concept, and annoying minutiae (heh) over how he, as curator of Branford signalling among OTHER important minutae, has taken his craft DEAD seriously and KNOWS his shi'ite ...
Bottom line, as long as it stays *ON* the rails, speed restrictions *ARE* the engineering solution. SCWOO what 2 MPH will do to your motors, read the @# ^&@*#%@^ sign. :)
That would be a fun idea. With those tracks you practically need a steering wheel.
#3 West End Jeff
You would be AMAZED at what flanges can negotiate *IF* the speed is slow enough and if your brakeman/conductor can SPOT if a car goes sideways and you can MAKE IT STOP. And THAT is the magic. :)
CHITTY rails are a way of life on MOST sidings, and let's be real here, no matter WHAT your motive, NYCH is a toy railroad, a common carrier of "nobody ELSE wanted THIS JOB" status. As a small business in NYS, I can understand EXACTLY the qwap they're going through, perenially being shaken down for money they DON'T have, but since they're not working for the state under contract, and NOT paying off Joe Bruno, then they're SCROOD for lack of "value." Been there, done that, dissed Don Joe Bruno and gotten abused out of my rights as a voter by "Proud to be republicans" ... OK, I shut uppa my face..
But yeah, they should be allowed to drop honestly parallel iron on their piece of the street. They should be allowed to smack vehicles like any REAL railroad (and at "speed") without penalty ... and Don, errrrrrr ... JOE Bruno should be allowed to bring in Sicilian contractors to ENSURE that the train move on time. Political contribution of $5 million required in advance, of course. :)
The NYCH RR seems to be like a gigantic set of Loinel trains. It would be good if they could place honestly parallel iron on their piece of street and if anyone dares to park on the street, they deserve to have their car smacked!!
#3 West End Jeff
The New York Cross Harbor railroad can remind one of the South Brooklyn Railroad that is the T/As own railroad. I like the picture of the railroad tracks literally cutting through the warehouse.
#3 West End Jeff
I have Time Warner Cable in Manhattan and I can't find the TV show "Transit Transit" listed at all. Is it shown on Time Warner Cable in Manhattan on any channel?
---Brian
Try channel 25, WNYE.
Try channel 25, WNYE. It airs every Saturday at 3:30 PM. I believe certain Time Warner channels show it as well at other times but this is how I watch Transit Transit News. The next month, they have a new show. Unfortunately, I railfanned yesterday and I forgot a new one was aired yesterday.
I apologize for the double post but I forgot something. Personally, I think the TT shows have declined in quality starting a couple of months ago. The shows are becoming more and more tourist-targeted and they fail to mention pertinent information like service advisories or other potentially useful information. I'd like to see progress reports on what's happening at Times Square, Broadway/Jackson Heights or Coney Island. Probably the most stupid thing is that 'Professor Putter' segment. They ask some good questions to ask like 'What's the longest line?. Someone actually said the 7! LOL.
Though in April's show, the queston asked was 'What does MTA stand for?' Weird....
"Though in April's show, the queston asked was 'What does MTA stand for?' Weird...."
I think you mean February's show. -Nick
Oh yes... My mistake.. 8-)
For April the question hould be "How Do You Spell MTA?"
Thanks for the info!
Cablevision has channel 22 now (sigh), but Local TV and Time Warner is Channel 25, BTW, this month's edition was a rerun from last year, I remember seeing this months episode before.
Yea, but it does't matter TT SUCKS, IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
I've been considering this idea for a long time. For subway service to Staten Island from Manhattan and Brooklyn, can this happen?
1) The Nassau St stub tracks south of Broad St become the connection to Staten Island, through a cross-harbor tunnel. This gives the Nassau St line a purpose, and gives Staten Island residents access to the major points of Downtown Manhattan and only one connection to just about everywhere else. These two tracks, upon entering Staten Island, stop at a newly designed St. George and continue along the SIRT tracks, or if deemed necessary can branch off between the current SIRT tracks and the abandoned North Shore line.
2) The Sea Beach line is restored to a four-track line. West of 8th Ave the following would take place. The two local tracks (one in each direction) would go down as they do now into the express tracks as 59th. Question: Is it the Sea Beach local tracks that blend in with the express or vice versa going down that hill? Meanwhile the other two tracks would (this is the part I'm least sure can happen) somehow cross the 4th Ave line perpendicularly (either above or below, whatever is easier) and become the 67th St line out to Staten Island. For the sake of reroutes and construction, 4th Ave trains from Pacific and 36th, after stopping at 59th, would have three possibilities: Bay Ridge, Sea Beach, or Staten Island. The track to Staten Island would feed into the local tracks. The track to Sea Beach would feed as it does now into the express tracks. Sea Beach trains have two possibilities: Staten Island or Manhattan.
3) Make the R line from 59th to 95th a three track line as provisions allowed (there are no columns on the Manhattan side of Bay Ridge Ave and 77th St). Two trains would run to 95th, one express, one local. This would make Bay Ridge riders extremely happy. Express trains skip 77th and Bay Ridge Ave, and then run express north of 59th. Fewer trains will be coming in off the Sea Beach so this would be possible.
4) In Staten Island, the Sea Beach/67th St tracks (the 2 of them) will have three options: one to go into St. George and into Nassau/Manhattan, another to go to Tottenville, and a third for North Shore.
5) Build the SAS such that the two tracks of the SAS feed in to the two outside platforms at Grand behind the wall, and then after Grand they would cut across and stop at the abandoned two bridge tracks at Chambers on the Nassau Line and then go from there.
I fully understand the MTA's budget deficit, so if that wasn't an issue, would this plan be feasible? The advantages I see are that the Sea Beach and the Nassau lines (two lines with relatively low ridership) get a higher purpose. Sea Beach Fred is happy because his line still feeds into the 4th Ave express tracks, and now also through Staten Island into Manhattan. Staten Island/Queens commutes are made A LOT easier (one train maybe?), as well as Staten Island/Bronx commutes.
Comments appreciated, but please no jokes about me ignoring the budget deficit.
I'm more concerned about whether this plan is PHYSICALLY possible (ie it does not intefere with already-existing trackage) than anything else.
Have you been to SI? Have you ridden SIR?
They use two-car trains (75-foot cars). The stations are very close together, and the platforms are VERY short, with only a single car's doors opening at any given platform. Even at rush hour, the trains are infrequent.
Converting SIR to anything resembing a real subway line would entail closing about two-thirds of the existing stations, and enormously lengthening the platforms of others. At the same time, to make the line even passably cost effective, you'd have to probably have another elevated line over the SI Exp'y.
SI would be better served with a high-quality light rail service, via SIR, an el over the SI Exp'y, all feeding onto the lower deck of the VZ Bridge to a covered terminal intersecting with the Sea Beach, from 8th Ave practically over to the turn onto 4th Ave.
If any new under-river or harbor tunnel is built with service to SI in mind, then something into the upper level of the Culver IND at Atlantic/Smith, connecting it to the West End via Greenwood Cemetery. This would allow a tremendous increase in express service via 4th Av. One might even demote 36th St. to a local stop.
That is the worst idea I've heard yet. Light rail to bay ridge and then a slow long trip via the N and R 4th ave line would result in a big waste of money and no-one using the service.
IT would be a major improvement if the SIRR was converted into a 4-car subway line. Ridership is virtually nothing because it take you almost nowhere, it's slow and it never comes.
Increase the service with a simi-direct route into manhattan and ridership would skyrocket. The 4th AVE line would be bennifited with increased service.
Actually, IINM most SIR trains are four cars long, and with a few exceptions, all cars platform at all stations.
the sirt has 4 car trains and a few stations that can only platform two cars mostly on the outer end near tottenville. And they are not that close together..like the subways..
the sirt has 4 car trains and a few stations that can only platform two cars mostly on the outer end near tottenville. And they are not that close together..like the subways..
I think its a great idea, but...
Instead of having so many lines feed a terminal in Staten Island, it could be one continuous through-line, from Nassau St through Staten Island (via SIR trackage) to the Sea Beach Line. There could instead be through-express service from Nassau to St. George and one or two other Staten Island stops, and then through another tunnel to the Sea Beach. Since service on the SIR is so infrequent, a couple of express trains could slip in between each scheduled SIR train. The junction at 4th Ave would be difficult, though, between the SBK, 4 Av line, and the Sea Beach Line. The only way this would be possible is if the junction between the two express and local tracks would have to be moved east and the express tracks would have to rise to an elevated structure for a short period, then sink back into a tunnel. Creating a flying junction between all lines in all directions is impossible...Take the IND's 53 St/6 Av as an example. That's a four-track line and three two-track lines (the E and B/D lines don't even interlock) and look how complex that is. Imagine trying to make a complete flying junction between two four-track lines, and two 2-track lines, without disrupting the major offramp of the BQE/Gowanus/whatever the heck that highway over there is called. With a simple two-track through line a train like the Z could run express, make two stops in Staten Island, and have a stop just to the west of 4th Ave to transfer with 4 Av/59 St. At night, it would just be a shuttle from Broad St-4th Ave.
In fact, if the 2nd avenue subway is ever built, there could be a connection between it and the old Nassau Loop tracks @ Chambers St, and passengers would have direct service through the rest of Manhattan, not just part of the Nassau Line.
"Creating a flying junction between all lines in all directions is impossible.."
Can the 2 tracks from Sea Beach to Staten Island go UNDER the 4th Ave line so that the Gowanas isn't even in question? When you have those two Sea Beach tracks descend and come in as the 59th St express tracks, can't the other two tracks come down as well, but just go deeper? And again, on the Sea Beach do the local tracks merge with the express west of 8th Ave or vice versa?
It's both, actually-I think the Coney Island-bound local diverges from the express, and the 4th Ave-bound express merges into the local. So that would be three tracks wide (to the west), with a space in between. Those tracks turn and actually become the 4th Avenue express tracks, leaving a huge space between tracks on the R for a little while south.
Actually, I like an idea I read on this board to extend PATH across the Arthur Kill to Staten Island and run its trains on the abandoned North Shore line. I think another idea to extend the Hudson-Bergen light rail across to Staten Island has merit, too, though the PATH idea could provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan that HBLR couldn't. These ideas just seem easier than connecting SI to Manhattan or Brooklyn, from an engineering point of view.
Mark
And, I read somewhere ages ago, that the Bayonne Bridge was designed to handle IRT-sized trains, on separate trackways (i.e., not along the existing traffic lanes).
A PATH connection is improbable, as the system is already overcapacity. Extending the light rail line across the Bayonne Bridge to at least St. George, tho', would be an interesting idea: I wonder if it would be cost effective, and what effect it would have on the capacity of the H-B line.
(A PATH connection is improbable, as the system is already overcapacity.)
A PATH connection is improbable, but not because the system is over capacity. They are improving the signaling system. They can probably get 36 tph, which is far more than they've ever run on any segment before. Note also that Hoboken traffic decreased with the advent of midtown direct service and will decrease even more with the Secaucus transfer.
It's money and politics, not capacity, that would keep the PATH out of Staten Island.
But going across the lower deck of the VN Bridge would be phenomenonally cheaper than a subway tunnel. And a properly configured Sea Beach transfer would allow reasonable service to Manhattan.
As it is, lots of people take a bus across the bridge and transfer to the R in Bay Ridge.
GREAT IDEA!! I certainly would be for a direct Staten Island to Manhattan connection. I also like the idea of restoring the BMT Sea Beach Line to its former glory. #4 Sea Beach Fred would be estatic.
#3 West End Jeff
My father has provided me of some footage of himself riding an R train and walking through the destroyed WTC area, with his own brand of commentary, on videocassette which he shot himself using a camcorder.
Some of this may be of interest to fans of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
though i have deliberately shied away from using WTC images other than those on my own WTC tribute page.
My question is...is it at all feasible to transfer this video footage into my computer and convert it to a quicktime file viewable from the website.
(I already have a gizmo that should enable me to transfer vinyl recordings into my mac so this shouldn't be impossible either...
I have a video capture card. I bought it a few years ago for $60.
They probably have similar models for the Mac.
Hi Subtalkers. When I visit NYC next week I intend to do as much railfanning as possible and take as many photographs as possible. I am a little wary, however, of venturing in to neighborhoods which are a little unsafe, as my camera is an expensive one! Are there any lines/stations best avoided or are most of them reasonably safe, by day at least?
by day, all are safe. So long as you dont act like you want to be robbed.
In general it's always a good idea to watch your p's and q's anytime you're in the subway. Keep your eyes open and watch out for people that might cause problems. Also don't spend too much time in any one location. And always think about where you're going afterwards.
I'm sure other people will come up with lines and stations to avoid. During the day it shouldn't be too bad. Also don't let your camera hang from your neck in plain view. Someone can just walk up, grab it and run. No joke.
Well most stations are safe. But I'd be wary of some G line stations, as well as the 3 in ENY, and some areas in the South Bronx. However, personally, the station I find most un-nerving is the Bowery on the Nassau street line, it's like a ghostown. Creepy..
However, personally, the station I find most un-nerving is the Bowery on the Nassau street line, it's like a ghostown. Creepy..
Bowery is a bit spooky, but it's really not a dangerous spot though. I think it's more the low ridership, and the delapitated condition of the station itself that makes it spooky. That neighborhood is not any worse than many other "less-nice" areas in the city.
Think of Chambers/BMT station. That station is NOT in a bad neighborhood at all, but you can't get spookier than the way that station looks, but it's just the condition of the station that makes it spooky.
^^^"I'd be wary of some G line stations"^^^
Well, I resent that remark. You should learn to mind your P & Qs or
stay in Sea Cliff, deviated ninny.
8-( Sparky
I resent some of your resentment. While parts of the G line are not bad, Myrtle/Willoughby and Flushing Aves are not in the greatest of neighborhoods. Sereral clerks have been injured at those stations.
For the sake of keeping this on Topic and not have this thread degenerate into something else, Let me say Parts of the G line are pretty good. There are a few stations where you shouldn't get off to explore the area. It's true for all of the system. Not just one area.
The best station on the G is Smith-9th. A safe station and it share the line with the F.
If I have to go to Smith-9th I'd rather be on the F. Over there the G train either goes in or out of service.
It doesn't matter which train you take to Smith/Ninth; you get off the train there to take pictures, or just look at the scenery and later get on whichever train you want.
And that view is amazingly still a great view (even after 9/11/2001).
And that view is amazingly still a great view (even after 9/11/2001).
Yes, and it serves to remind us of 9-11 by what we don't see.
Yes, it's very sad.
Looking at the current pic it's like someone smiling without 2 front teeth. 8-(
^^^"Flushing Aves are not in the greatest of neighborhoods"^^^
Lots of new housing going up in that neighborhood, north of Flushing
Avenue as well as in the vicinity of Broadway station. Not the
subsidized type either. Also much vacant land in the vicinity.
The area is making a come back.
Want an unsavory station on the G line, how about 21th~VanAlst after
normal Monday~Friday business hours?
8-) Sparky
21/Van Alst doesn't have projects nearby as Flushing Ave does. I hope the neighborhood is getting better. I worked in the booths along the G line and it doesn't seem so safe. I hope it's only me that feels like that.
^^^"21/Van Alst doesn't have projects nearby as Flushing Ave does."^^^
Well, 21/Van Alst has a very insipid reputation and not from its
surrounding neighborhood either.
The new housing North of Flushing and toward Broadway, are not
projects. May have non existent Saturday ridership though.
Also you are stereotyping when using the phrase "projects".
8-) Sparky
Maybe "projects" is the wrong word to use. But there are the Marcy Houses on the south side of Fluahing and Marcy. Some of the clerks I know who have worked at M/W and Flushing don't think so highly about it.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion of specific locations.
But, if you use that "P" word, one of the most ill-reputed "P" locations is at 21th/Queensbridge.
But lets not go there, its way OT.
8-) Sparky
agreed
Well, to make one final comment, JohnS himself referred to "subsidized housing," which these days has the same negative connotation as "the projects."
Speaking of P, the north end of the Queensbound platform at 34th on Broadway was pull of P and I had to hold my nose.
Ah yes....well I resemble that remark. The subway may be dangerous. If you have to ask, take the bus. Don't ride if you're scared, you chknsht.
No part of the system is really unsafe, especially during the day, you should be fine. Just use your head. Don't flash expensive items in secluded areas, that goes for even the best of neighborhoods. There is no part of the subway that you really need to be scared of as long as it's daytime. New York's subway has been trying to shake the stigma it got in the 70's for years. It finally has. It's been more than safe for at least 15 years, even if the stigma still existed well into that time.
It's unlikely you'll be able to do the whole system. The G line is fine, but I would not get off at the Myrtle, Flushing or Broadway stations (these are downright scary -- nothing a few cops wouldn't cure); the transfer between the G and L at Lorimer, tho', is interesting, and worth an exploration.
You'll want to do the Myrtle Av el (the M), and if you have time, the whole of the J/Z line out to Archer Ave. The West End and Brighton lines are interesting too. You definitely want to do the whole of the Flushing line.
With IND stations, once you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all.
One interesting area to explore is the Borough-Hall complex: check out all three platorms, then exit and see how it all relates to the streetscape above (I suggest the exit at the east end of the BMT, platforms where you go to transfer to the IRT lines).
For the Bronx, upper Broadway is a must. The other three IRT el lines are also interesting. The Dyre Av line is very interesting: you'll it was built as a full four-track system.
I agree, as Jefferey said, the M is definitely worth a trip, and the J/Z also.
You probably wouldn't have time to do them all, but these are the best of the best - the lines I say are a must do, if for the first time in New York:
-The J and M lines - great old style, traditional el routes. The J between Marcy and Broadway Junction (and the M between Myrtle and Knickerbocker) is in a bit of urban decay, but perfectly safe and very interesting.
-The A train from Broadway Junction to the Rockaways. If you are doing the J and M, it's easy to transfer to the A at Broadway Junction. Great scenery as the A traverses Jamaica Bay to the beach.
-The 2/5 in the Bronx. As Jefferey said, the Dyre line (5) north of East 180th is very interesting.
-the 1 line from 42nd Street to 242Street. It's part of the original New York subway, so the underground stations are all very interesting, the 125th viaduct is a nice highlight, and the northern end is pure old el.
-the 7 line. A Queens classic.
The bottom line is that the IND is boring because it's primarily underground. A railfan window ride out to Far Rock would be priceless for a visiting railfan.
Yup exactly, the A to Rockaway is the first line anyone should do as a tourist, that's why I said to take the J to Broadway Junction, and then switch to the A, instead of taking the A all the way to Far Rockaway from manhattan. Although on the way back he might as well take the A to Broadway-Nassau Street (for a different way back to Manhattan, even if it's just plain standard underground IND from Broadway Junction to Broadway-Nassau Street) and transfer to the 2/3 there (and later along the line transfer to the 1 and then ride up to 242 Street).
I recommend the following non-boring IND stations:
- 181 St (A)
- 191 St (A)
- 110th St, uptown platform at the rear (A)
- Columbus Circle
- Smith / 9th Sts (F,G)
- 9th St / 4th Ave (F)
On the Rockaway Line, I'd recommend you get off at Beach 44th St and walk to the boardwalk. There is clear line of sight between the Beach 36th and Beach 60th Street stations if you stand on the Boardwalk in the vicinity of the Beach 44th St station. Also, get off at Beach 90th St and walk to the park in the middle of Hammels Wye. Finally, walk over to the Cross Bay Bridge and take pictures of the A & shuttle trains crossing the South Channel Bridge. Part of the fun of this is getting off the train and finding that great shot from a vantage point off the system. The Rockaway Line is one such example where you can do this.
--Mark
What's "unsavory" can also be highly subjective. I was going to post on my experience in ENY just about 45 minutes ago. I wanted to do it in a new thread, but here goes:
I had travelled today from my home in Queens Village via LIRR to ENY/Atlantic Ave., then L train to Livonia Avenue to visit one of my former EMS partners who lives there. (It was raining, and anyway, an excuse to railfan is..well you get the idea). On my way back, I took the L back to ENY/Atlantic to catch the 3:58 home.
Being a railfan, I walked around the easternmost part of the plat, looking at the old underpass and station layout. I then walked back by the Atlantic/Snediker entrance, because the LIRR closes the head pair on this train. When I got there I saw a bag laying on the wall at the street side of the plat. Just as I began thinking about "abandoned bags" a fellow came running back to his bag from waaaay down the plat where his friends were. "You didn't see anybody going through this bag?" he barked at me as he searched his bag frantically. "Did you touch this bag?" he cried. When I said "No", he yelled "What the $@*& were you doing down THERE?". By then his friends had joined him and it looked like I was gonna be the "bad guy".
I explained that I was just looking at the station. This got me some odd looks. But then the fellow realized all the contents of his bag were still there, and he and his group left me and walked back to where they had been. That's how TOO much fear and prejudgement can get you messed up, especially when you're an "unsavory" railfan.
That is messed up. Luckily, you turned up all right. If those people want to do their 'business', they should do in a better place, not in an area where's it easy to mess up and get caugh.
While doing the #7, get off at 90th st and walk along Roosevelt until 82nd St cut down 82nd to 37th ave, make a left follow 37th ave towards 74th Street, follow 74th up to the entrance to the E/F/G/R/V/7
You experience the world in that short walk, and some great places
to eat!
Yeah, that place is really great! Of course, you can't forget Astoria and its El as well. I highly recommend though you don't get off early like at Beebe or something. Yesterday, I was doing railfanning and I had gotten off at Queens Plaza to look at the ESA workplace. As I was walking along, some guy passed me and starting barking obscene and lewd things. I just shunned him, thinking his stupid action were no concern to me. It was hard to believe once I got to another subway station... it is rough out there... Use common sense.
Uh, isn't this where the Riker's Island bus starts? Very few actually use Queens Plaza or Queensborough Plaza as a destination.
Nope, that's much more northwest, where the N/W terminate.
The bus to Riker's Island starts at s/w corner of Queens Blvd and Jackson Avenue. It's closer to Queens Plaza than to Queensboro Plaza.
My advice, after 8 years of living by Halsey St/Wilson Ave on the L:
Stay off the L. Wilson, Atlantic, and Sutter Ave stations are in bad physical condition; Atlantic Av on a weekend is empty and creepy; besides, once you get in the tunnel west of Bway Jct, its nothing but a boring, slow, timed, two-track line. Only Bway Jct-Rockaway Pkwy is of any interest (minus Sutter). Unless you're trying to get from the M to the A/C or between trains in Manhattan on 14th Street, don't get on the L. If you want shots of the R-143, or of ENY yard, just stand on Broadway Junction platform for a while; you're bound to see at least one.
Also, there is construction on the L, breaking it up into three sections on weekends, and even on weekdays, trains crawl at 5-10 MPH between Wilson Av and Halsey St all the time.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, do NOT take the Manhattan-bound L from Broadway Jct to Myrtle Av. The train may take 15+ minutes to come, and will probably be late, and will run at 10MPH. Take the J instead; at least its outside and you can get some good shots at Broadway/Myrtle.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, do NOT take the Manhattan-bound L from Broadway Jct to Myrtle Av. The train may take 15+ minutes to come, and will probably be late, and will run at 10MPH. Take the J instead; at least its outside and you can get some good shots at Broadway/Myrtle.
This has got to be a bit exagerated. "No matter what you do....". Yes right now ON WEEKENDS the L is undergoing construction, but during the day on the weekdays there is NO problem. I do agree the J/M combo is more interesting between Myrtle-Wyckoff and Broadway Junction than the L between Myrtle/Wyckoff and Broadway Junction, but the L is not a scarey line, and is far from uninteresting. Actually, Canarsie Bound, east of Myrtle, the L is fairly interesting because you are underground, then duck outside for Wilson, go back underground for Bushwick, and then then back out again for broadway Junction. West of Myrtle the L is all underground, but contains some of the best mosaics in the system. The L would not be the first line I would recommend, but not because it is bad or uninteresting, just because the others mentioned are a better to do first if on a limited tourist time schedule.
I *completely* disagree. Back in November, I walked the line between Bushwick / Aberdeen and Sutter Ave taking video of the soon-to-be-removed Snediker Ave El and its environs, including the Broadway / Junction complex, one of, if not the, most interesting elevated complex on the entire system. The "S" curve out of Sutter is a great place to take pictures from, at street level. And it's changing, so grab pictures now before what you want to get is totally gone.
I did this alone during daylight hours. The area is mostly industrial (scrap / recyclers) and there is a cemetary nearby. In fact, I walked into the cemetary onto a hill and the view of the Broadway - East NY complex was great. (I didn't take video because the sun was in the wrong place and there is a sign in the cemetary expressly prohibiting it).
Take a look at the second half of the description of this video and you'll see exactly what I videotaped.
--Mark
Okay, maybe I didn't quite put it right...what I meant was to avoid actually riding the L train, not to avoid getting shots of Bway Jct/Atlantic Av. If its a weekend, L service is so screwed up that by the time the train would come you could walk from Bway Jct to Atlantic to Sutter and back. Of course Broadway Junction is a great photo spot; the only elevated junction still existing that comes even close to being as complex as that one is E 180 St in the Bronx.
This gives me an oppertunity to ask a good question.
I have been to NYC 3 times and explored all the boroughs a little bit on the subway. I would have to say I really wasn't scared or thinking why did I come here at any time on any of my trips. The walk from the Belmont Italian district to the Subway in the Bronx was a little rough, but if I would have stayed on main streets and not tried to take short cuts it would have been fine.
My question I have is, is there anywhere that you should avoid at all costs in NYC??? Something similar to 63rd/Ashland, Englewood, here in Chicago. I know you guys are sympathetic towards the subway and I am also towards the CTA L system. However, I always tell people that there is absolutely nothing to see in Englewood and because it's very dangerous to never ride the Green Line there day or night. I would recommend anywhere else on the CTA system for rail-faning during the day. On the other hand East 63rd/Cottage grove has some new developments and is changing into a very nice area. Also at the extreme east end of 63rd St. you have the beautiful Jackson Park and 63rd St. Beach. Not to mention you can also ride Metra Electric to 63rd St. about 3/4th mile east of East 63rd on the Green Line. This way you can still see the majority of the green Line on the south side and have something to do when you get off at East 63rd. Not to mention you can ride Metra one way and make the trip even more interesting.
It is not either because 63rd/Ashland or 63rd/Halsted are in bad condition, it is because of the neighborhood their in. Almost every-single day someone gets murdered in the Englewood neighborhood. I know people who live on the West side of Chicago in neighborhoods that are considered very dangerous who would never dream of even driving to Englewood let alone taking the L.
My question is, is it possible to specifically say to avoid certain NYC areas like Englewood here in Chicago at all cost or are all areas generally safe during the day-light hours???
Again, I do not feel any part of the NY subway system is unsafe during the day. And as long as you stay in the system in some of the questionable areas, anyone should be fine. This may because I sort of become immune to most of NY's neighborhoods, probably through railfanning, and none of the areas really bothers me anymore.
Where I wouldn't recommend getting out by oneself would probably be some areas of the South Bronx, and around where the L and 3 lines meet near East New York, and around where the G line makes it's 90 degree turn in Bedford-Stuyvesant. But even all of those areas are not really half as bad as they used to be, and have improved. In those areas, there is nothing really for a tourist to see anyway, if gettng out of the system there. In a group, again you would have no problem, especially during the day.
Question-
How's the area between the 2 (Bronx Park East or Pelham) and the Bronx Zoo. I was considering taking a half day and shooting up to the zoo on a wednesday.
Thanks,
Bryan
Question-
How's the area between the 2 (Bronx Park East or Pelham) and the Bronx Zoo. I was considering taking a half day and shooting up to the zoo on a wednesday.
It should be fine.
Wednesdays might be very crowded because it's "free" day, and many school groups come and take advantage of the no-cost option.
--Mark
Maybe that's why he's going.
Yup, that's why I'm going!
....I did see a couple of jabborwockeys there last week.
Thanks guys and gals, if anyone is going to be in the Bronx Zoo tomorrow (Wednesday), just shout "Jimmy Proboscis" once in a while in the monkey areas, I'll be there!
Thanks for all the info, guys and gals!
I don't agree with the assessment of the L in the Broadway Junction area during daylight hours. See this post.
--Mark
I don't agree with the assessment of the L in the Broadway Junction
I agree with you too, but I never mentioned Broadway Junction, unless you were agreeing with me disagreeing with the previous poster's opinions on the L line.
This gives me an oppertunity to ask a good question.
I have been to NYC 3 times and explored all the boroughs a little bit on the subway. I would have to say I really wasn't scared or thinking why did I come here at any time on any of my trips. The walk from the Belmont Italian district to the Subway in the Bronx was a little rough, but if I would have stayed on main streets and not tried to take short cuts it would have been fine.
My question I have is, is there anywhere that you should avoid at all costs in NYC??? Something similar to 63rd/Ashland, Englewood, here in Chicago. I know you guys are sympathetic towards the subway and I am also towards the CTA L system. However, I always tell people that there is absolutely nothing to see in Englewood and because it's very dangerous to never ride the Green Line there day or night. I would recommend anywhere else on the CTA system for rail-faning during the day. On the other hand East 63rd/Cottage grove has some new developments and is changing into a very nice area. Also at the extreme east end of 63rd St. you have the beautiful Jackson Park and 63rd St. Beach. Not to mention you can also ride Metra Electric to 63rd St. about 3/4th mile east of East 63rd on the Green Line. This way you can still see the majority of the green Line on the south side and have something to do when you get off at East 63rd. Not to mention you can ride Metra one way and make the trip even more interesting.
It is not either because 63rd/Ashland or 63rd/Halsted are in bad condition, it is because of the neighborhood their in. Almost every-single day someone gets murdered in the Englewood neighborhood. I know people who live on the West side of Chicago in neighborhoods that are considered very dangerous who would never dream of even driving to Englewood let alone taking the L.
My question is, is it possible to specifically say to avoid certain NYC areas like Englewood here in Chicago at all cost or are all areas generally safe during the day-light hours???
Do LIRR engineers have stop markers on the platforms? I noticed that many of them pull their trains up to the platform edge even though there are a lot of people wating towards the middle, hence forcing them to walk up. This happens at huntington even during bad weather. We have to exit the protection of the canopy. If there are pulling 3 cars instead of 4, they still stop at the same spot.
Is it legal for the crew to stop the train short of the markers? Instead of pulling up to the end of the platform, they could stop sooner? The TA does that on shorter trains so why can't it be done on the LIRR? Does NJT or MN do this?
Short MNRR trains usually stop short of the end so the train lies roughly in the middle of the station. I don't know how the engineer does this, since there are no visvible car markers. Probably by experience with the length of each platform.
You can see signs on the LIRR. Usually they may be numbered: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 6-10, 4-10, 8-10, 8-12, 10-12. They appear on the right hand side. However, these are just guidelines. They are not enforced, IIRC.
I once rode a train which stopped on Platform 10a at Birmingham New Street where the driver realised he'd made a mistake, closed up, then opened up again on Platform 10b.
Heh, you'd never see that happen on the subways!
On the subway, it is the conductor who ensures that the whole train is correctly platformed, by pointing to the zebras before opening the doors. Naturally the T/O must play his part by stoping at exactly the right place, and then enabling the doors.
On the LIRR it is the responsibility of the Engineer to stop the train so that all cars that are intednded to open are correctly platformed.
Elias
by pointing to the zebras before opening the doors
Or in NYCT terms the "jail bars".
I rode an LIRR train (aboard the locomotive) and the conductor leaned out to signal (patting his head and then holding up two fingers). He was telling us that he was using the head two cars and wanted us to stop shorther. Apparently they had not agreed on what cars they would be using before they left the station.
So how would the engineer know where to stop if he did not even know what equipment was in use.
It was however a pet peeve of mine, that the same train was never consistant on where he would stop coming into Merrick from one day to the next. It was my impressing that he came in quick and stoped wherever he stopped, though of course a 10 or 12 car train did have to platform correctly or as expected.
I suspect that those numbers (I never saw them myself, maybe they were not there in the early 80s) were just to let him know that he had to get past that place for the cars in use to platform.
Elias
It was however a pet peeve of mine, that the same train was never consistant on where he would stop coming into Merrick from one day to the next. It was my impressing that he came in quick and stoped wherever he stopped, though of course a 10 or 12 car train did have to platform correctly or as expected.
I suspect that those numbers (I never saw them myself, maybe they were not there in the early 80s) were just to let him know that he had to get past that place for the cars in use to platform.
The markers at Merrick center a train of M-1/3s on the platform. Unless you've got 12 cars, you can stop ahead or short of a marker and still have all doors on the platform.
Mark
Most westbound peak trains stop on the markers. This is why the regular commuters cluster in the places that they do.
Eastbound on 12 car platforms, some engineers stop on the markers while others use a bit of discretion in where they stop the train.
On shorter platforms, the markers seem to be used at all times.
CG
Most westbound peak trains stop on the markers. This is why the regular commuters cluster in the places that they do.
Also known as cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons.
I've noticed that some morning s/b weekend trains stop short of the beginning of the platform at Rahway on track 6. I've also seen this "short stop" happen at Linden. Also, on one occasion, an afternoon weekday n/b would have 14 Arrow III cars, thus making the engineer stop all the way to the next "catenary pole" ahead of the platform before stopping.
1) Do these "short stops" happen at other stations?
2) Why would an afternoon n/b weekday NJT have 14 cars to NY? (One other occasion I saw one of these going s/b at Metuchen)
3) Why do engineers perform "short stops" on some (not all) trains and on some station stops but not on others?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
4) If you mean not going all the way to the end of the platform, I believe the engineer stops where the majority of passengers are waiting. This practice occurs only at night. Had the experience with ARROW III m.u.'s at Broad Street-Elizabeth. 10 car train northbound and only first two cars platform at south end of station.
No. This happens also during the morning hours on Sundays. I'm not sure about Saturdays. Sunday afternoons are where 10-car trains can fully platform on Rahway, but I see your point.
Also, NJT runs few 6-car and 4-car trains which stop in the latter end of the platform regardless of passenger location. Sometimes while railfanning, I see passengers all the way up front walk back to the first car to board the train.
I've seen eastbound trains stop short of the platform end at Hamilton and then overshoot the Princeton Junction platform end by half a car to spread the passengers out. Otherwise most of them would be in SRO middle cars, with first and last cars nearly empty.
I heard a story about a schoolbus driver in Los Angeles Friday.
Supposedly: Schoolchildren (primary school) accuse a schoolbus driver of threatening to get them hit by a train when they refused to refrain from rowdy behavior on the bus.
Several children allege that the driver pulled the bus across a grade crossing and stopped. Allegedly, she threatened them and demanded they shut up. The crossing gates lowered, the lights began flashing and a train approached, blasting its horn. The schoolchildre then, allegedly, cried and screamed and begged the driver to move. I did not hear whether the train went BIE or not. The driver then, allegedly, moved the bus off the tracks, took the children back to school instead of home like she was supposed to do.
Does anybody know any details? Is any of this true?
Just Friday? It would surely be on Google news. I did a search for "los angeles school bus" and came up with a batch of stories, but none like yours.
I live in the LA area, and haven't seen or heard anything like this.
But I've heard that story before.
Maybe it's on urbanlegends.com....
OK gang, I finally watched the Warriors on TNN for the 1st time yesterday. I have a few questions:
Was the 96th street station the real thing?
Was the union square staion the real thing?
When they were walking through the tunnel, where was that shot?
Peace,
ANDEE
Was the 96th street station the real thing?
No. That was Hoyt/Schermerhorn re-signed
Was the union square staion the real thing?
Yes and no. The fight scene on the platform with the cops was filmed at Hoyt. Other scenes were filmed at Union Sq. I'm not sure if the bathroom they had their brawl in was a set or a real bathroom.
When they were walking through the tunnel, where was that shot?
The Court St. shuttle tracks.
The scenes filed on an "el" were done on the Broadway elevated between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Ave.
Hello,
Does anyone out there know what the work cars 36895 and 37366 are used for and if they are still self propelled? There are pictures of them on the site here.
36895 3-15-2002 R17
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3201.jpg
37366 2-10-2002 R21
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3284.jpg
I was curious since they don't have their windows covered over with steel plates or bars.
Thanks, Laddie Vitek
R-17 6895 is self propelled and was used in for non-passenger duties such as serving on the garbage train, and being used as a classroom for train operators and conductors. 6895 was operational when I rode the car in 1998. It currently resides at Concourse Yard. There is interest in preserving the car for the Transit Museum.
R-22 7366 is also self propelled and was used on the Signal Dolly Work Train. The Signal Dolly is used for distributing supplies to various points in the system (such as Towers). 7366 was retired from active duty in 2001, and was in the process of being scrapped.
-Stef
7366 is still wasting away in South Brooklyn yard; I don't think it's self-propelled any more ;).
I always thought of the terms Protestant and Catholic marriage of two subway cars permanently coupled as a cute term. I have not heard it lately.
What is more common the Catholic or permanent coupling or the Protestant marriage of two cars where the coupling can be broken without undue effort?
currently there are ONLY catholic cars
Well then, what was the last Protestant marriage subway model? Was it on the BMT?
How about this Protestant/Catholic pairing right now: R40M 4460 married to R42 4664? Except I don't know who the Protestant is and who the Catholic is!
The R-40M went to subway car Pre-Cana and is now Catholic like the R-42...;-)
Since they were both linked by drawbar from the start, both cars came from Catholic married pairs. The R-26s and R-28s were converted to Catholicism during GOH.
A mixed marriage?
Does that make the multiple link-bar arrangement a Mormon harem, or just an orgy?
:0)
No, the Morman cars are the R143's (but I guess it could be an orgy - maybe the R143's aren't married at all, and just living in sin.
Damn, this thread is going over the top........
LOL!
The 110Bs are officially the mormon cars...
The BMT ran three-car sets of el cars and standards for years.
Oh Good Grief!!!
a menage-a-trois!!!
Sometihng along those lines.:)
It was truly "An Affair To Remember!"
The remarried R42 is #4665 and (she) and #4460 (he) are both Catholic.
wayne
Well then the R32-38's must have converted to the Jewish religion after going through the bris during their rebuilds on their front ends.
Or is that the Jewish R40M's with their "modified" fronts?
LMAO!!!
It was the R-30 and yes, it was first assigned to the BMT.
The R-29s were the first so-called Catholic married pair cars.
So, we now have a trivia term that applies to something that doesn't exist anymore. Didn't know that, thanks for the input.
Mr t
Weren't the R32-42's also sort of "Protestant" as opposed to "Catholic"? (This is getting a bit silly). Anyway, did either end of those class cars have controls on either end of the cars (before rebuilding) like the R30's or did only one end have controls, and the pairs had to remain "married"?
The R-32s through R-42s were all linked by drawbar from the factory. OTOH the R-26s, R-27s, R-28s, and R-30s originally had couplers at both ends even though they were still married pairs; hence they could easily swap mates.
Thanks, that's what I wasn't sure about.
The R44 and R46s were origionally Prodestant, but like the 26 and 28s, they were converted into catholocism
Well, now that the 75-footers have been linked into four-car sets, you really can't call them married pairs anymore. Now it's a kind of Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice-type setup.
THEY'RE SWINGERS!!!
The R-44 and later (except for a bunch of R-62s and the R-68s on the Franklin S) are Mormon married pairs.*
*Contrary to popular belief, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has not allowed polygamy for quite some time; its outlawing was a condition of Utah's statehood in 1896. Only Mormon fundamentalists still practice it.
B division cars R32-R42: Catholic
A Division R33, R36 (all): Catholic
A Division R33S, R62A cars 1901-2155: Protestant
B Division, R44s and newer, and A Division R62 and newer (except for above mentioned R62As) can you say, orgy? (4 car sets B div. and 5 car sets A div.)
You wanna know when this gets really "illegal"? When the R160s come in!
IMHO single unit cars should be considered as "nondenominational" or "confirmed bachelors".:)
I guess that makes such a case for the Broad Street Line, which has a mixing of double-cab and single-cab cars, likely due to their five-car consists, and the two-car runs of the Ridge Spur.
I think the couplings on Regional Rail cars is easily broken... I've seen many mixings in the three-car sets, but the cars are "married"
Hmmm.... I wonder how it is for WMATA...
Wow, a three car Married Silverliner?!
All I've ever seen is 3 car the Silverliner IVs Married Pair + Single unit, with the single more or less termporary (two parents and a child? couple and a roomate?), or the Silverliner II and III's Three single units all coupled together (a true menage-a-trois if there ever was one).
Why don't we use the term "family" for the 4-and-5 car sets, with the low cab car number being the "father", the high cab car number being the "mother", and the UNDM/trailers between being the "children".
wayne
Good idea!
To the best of my knowledge, the terms Protestant & Catholic, as related to NYCT subway cars, are not use by any NYCT personnel. It seems to trivialize the religeons.
Organized religion, such as it is, is in no danger from cute and affectionate terms to describe the pairing of subway cars. Everyone knows these are not official NYCT terms. I'm sure the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority) never sanctioned railfans calling its 6000-series cars "spam cans", either. (Were the Hormel people aware of this use of their no-doubt unauthorized use of their trademark?)
Yeah, I think everyone was just having a little fun at this. I know it wasn't meant to offend anyone or their religions. It was not meant in serious context.
I hope George F. isn't comparing canned meat to organized religeon. As for my comment, I never intended to imply that some people on subtalk were deliberately being disrespectful towards those organized religeons. My main point was that the terms were not legitimately used in terms of NYCT subway cars. About the only such term I've ever heard was used to refer to mis-mated cars as "bastard pairs".
"I hope George F. isn't comparing canned meat to organized religion." That was the farthest thing from my mind.
forget the spam cans ... wonder how they reacted when junk e-mail got called spam ... and STUCK!
--Mark
A Catholic married pair is a set of two cars that cannot be uncoupled except with considerable effort. A Protestant married pair can be uncoupled fairly easily.
#3 West End Jeff
Your alittle late...
Better late than never. Hopefully a few people get the message and will know the difference between Catholic married pairs and Protestant married pairs.
#3 West End Jeff
I know that Ross Rowland had sold the 614 and it was placed on the auction block. Anyone know what has become of it since? Also, I read that he was looking into building a new type of steam locomotive in the 1980s called the ACE 3000. It was never built, but if it was, it would have looked like a cross between a U23B and the Jawn Henry turbine electric, with the exception of the running gear. Anyone know about this? Thanks.
The AEC 3000 was covered with a patent that is at least 40 pages long. It was a good concept on paper, but the hard facts of the economy set it.
Trains had a news item on the 614. I think it was moved recently.
the C@O 614 was not sold as nobody bid high enough.
NJT agreed to have engine leave the MMC and its now at Blue Mountain & Reading in storage.
for ACE 3000 page see :
it does takes a while to load.
the C@O 614 was not sold as nobody bid high enough.
NJT agreed to have engine leave the MMC and its now at Blue Mountain & Reading in storage.
for ACE 3000 page see :
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html.
it does takes a while to load.
sorry other link somehow got screwed up.
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html
sorry other link somehow got screwed up.
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html
The Blue Mountain & Reading is now the Reading & Northern. This is a news release from their website concerning 614:
An interesting looking piece of rail equipment arrived with our cut of interchange cars from NS at Reading on Saturday May 25th. C&O 614 arrived on the RGPN-25 (Reading to Port Clinton turn job) and was set off at Port Clinton. To dispel a frenzy of recent rumors, the 614 will be at Port Clinton for long term storage only. There are no plans by the owners of 614 or the R&N to operate the steam engine in any capacity. The R&N has NO interest in the purchase of the steam engine but has agreed to store it for an undetermined length of time. Railfans are reminded that all grounds associated with the Reading and Northern Railroad are private property. Railfans and other interested parties must use common sense in regard to the respect of private property when viewing the 614.
The common sence means come on Sunday. The Port Clinton is deserted at that time with maybe the occasional freight snaking through. I also don't think the R&N people are anti-railfan what would probably let anyone who asked take pictures. Last time I was there I got a pic of the Reading T-1 that have in LTS as well as a CF-7 on an inbound freight.
The wording of the press release seems to be a 'quiet' way of saying 'If you ask nicely and sign a wavier, we'll let you get a a few really good angles'. Obviously, they don't want the floodgates open, but if they wanted people to stay away, they'd sure say it.
So let me get this straight. It's got nearly equal performance to a diesel 1/2 it's weight and 2x it's thermodynamic efficiency? To say nothing of a contemporary electric - an ALP-46 or HHP-8 can match it's projected performance (and beat it), while being considerably shorter, and less than 1/3rd the weight.
Steam died because it sucks compared to diesels or electrics. It just does. It's inefficient, dirty, maintenance instensive, and requires a lot of supporting infestructure (coaling towers, water tanks, a place to store the ashes...).
The ACE project had kicked around for a few years and has gone nowhere. I don't think anyone seriously expected it too. In1980, maybe it looked good as an absolute last ditch effort to avoid electrification (which was considered taboo even then) in the face of high oil costs, but today, it wouldn't even be considered purely on environmental grounds.
Diesels outperform steam anyway, AC traction diesels by a wider margin. IIRC, there reasons have to do with the diesel being effectively a constant HP locomotive, whereas the steam isn't. But that a diesel outdoes a steam is well documented.
Except at high altitudes like the Himalayas and Andes ... up there, steam's about the only thing that can "breathe" and still have some power to pull. Otherwise, you're absolutely right.
Diesels have still yet to match the most powerful steam engines in terms of power and haulability (aka "Q2 Power"). Of course it costs 20 times as much to do so.
BTW, please stop comparing electrics to everything. Yes they are better, but wide spread electrifacation is not going to happen.
I'm not into the technical or whatever power specs associated with
diesel vs steam. AFAX: When 614 did the excursion[s] on NJT/MNRR it
hauled 25 cars, only assist was an extra tender. The Northbound trip
was slower, because the excursion[s] followed a scheduled run from
Hoboken to Port Jervis. But the Southbound return to Hoboken, she
hauled a** with the same twenty five cars in tow. How many diesels
would be required to haul the same consist? >GG<
8-) Sparky
one or two at most. since even 614 was not doing commuter stops. the train would weigh only about as much as 30 freight cars, something one diesel can easely pull.
and since the consist had its own HEP car even a diesel would not have had to feed that load.
>>Diesels outperform steam anyway,<< perhaps, but for fin you might watch the video of UP 3985 with a stack train. The APL train comes into Chetenne w/4(5?) then modern diesels. 3985 replaced them solo. The footage of a Challenger effortlessly pulling 140 stacks is glorious. Mind you, I favor electrification, but steam is majestic.
That's good to know. I was reading that because of high insurance costs, a lot of steam excursions may be put on hold this year. SP 4-8-4 4449 will not run this year and Frisco 4-8-4 1522 had been forced into retirement back in September 2002.
"EXPL" plates are now on the PATH cars next to the lighted destination indicators. Anyone know when the station will open?
They're shooting for June. Based on the onsite activity looks like they'll make it.
Every couple of years, they close one side or the other of the Manhattan Bridge, causing total chaos. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if they just made some kind of simple junction at the north end in Manhattan for trains to switch over to the open side, so they don't have to completely cutoff service from either 6 Ave or Broadway over the bridge into Brooklyn? Just curious...
Well.... what is on the south side used to run on the north side before Christie street was invented to destroy the whole thing. In them days the south side went to Nassau Street and the North Side to Broadway.
After Christie... the Nassau Loop was disconnected, the south side was contrived to serve Broadway, and the north side was rebuilt to serve Sixth Avenue, thought in therory it could also serve Second Avenue, shoult that eventuallity ever come to pass.
The tracks are no loger extant, but clearly could be contrived that Bway could run either North or South, I do not know if the opposite may be possible or not.
But WHY! Get the IND out of SOUTH BROOKLYN! that is BMT Country!
Elias
Oh piffle ... it's one big happy Star Fleet. :)
Although one would wonder why they didn't connect up both sides to both lines to cover the eventuality of what's been going on ever since ...
The MTA actually considered that. The problem is that unless it was a flying junction, you'd really only be able to run service on one line anyway; without a flyning junction all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
The real solution is the one the MTA's planners proposed, but the politicians wouldn't even consider funding -- connecting the DeKalb tracks to the Rutgers tunnel. With a modification to allow trains from the north to to terminate at Grand, that would have allowed the TA to run a complete, high quality network with service to all stations during off peak hours without using the bridge at all. That would have allowed ongoing maintenance, and reduced wear and tear, prolonging its life.
Why am I not surprised? :(
But even without flyers, if one side was shut down, there'd be a way to win.
York Street is so deep, could you possibly make it to DeKalb and keep a 3 or 4 % grade ?
What is the ruling grade on NYCT, anyway....
(York Street is so deep, could you possibly make it to DeKalb and keep a 3 or 4 % grade ?)
Looking at my Hagstrom's, Dekalb to York looks like at least 4000'. Subtract 600' for one station length, and that gives you 3400'. Even at 2%, that allows a drop of 68'.
Actually you are wrong. A flat interlocking would not be that difficult for the Manny B. Basically it would be a giant 4 track sicsors X over, however, since it would only be used when one side of the Manny B is shut down it would be equivalent to a simple flat divergance of 2, 2-track lines, just like Myrtle Ave on the MJZ and that place where the 3 diverges from the 2 in Harlem. The use of movable point frogs would serve to speed trains through the x-overs.
(Basically it would be a giant 4 track sicsors X over, however, since it would only be used when one side of the Manny B is shut down it would be equivalent to a simple flat divergance of 2, 2-track lines, just like Myrtle Ave on the MJZ and that place where the 3 diverges from the 2 in Harlem.)
Well, you're right in a sense, they couldn't move 40 trains over two tracks on the bridge, so you'd have just 10 trains diverging from 20. Still, that's one train every six minutes crossing in front of both bridge tracks. It would still cause the trains to stack up.
BTW, I didn't know that the 2/3 divergence was an at-grade interlocking. Yuck!
Theoretically, the thing which limits a line to 40tph is the stations. Nothing much more could be run without the subsequent train "futtbucking" the one already in the station. Given a 30 second stop, including acceleration and deceleration, the minumum gap caused would be 1 minute - the equivalent of 60tph. Therefore, properly signalled, 30tph should be able to cross 30tph at grade, at least in theory. But both are branches of 2 tracks, so in this case we are only talking about at most 20tph crossing at most 20tph at grade. This might mean a bit of waiting for signals to clear, but it should be possible with a decent signal system (although it would seem a bit like a trolley system!).
But if you have trains waiting inthe same place at red signals for conflicting moves to clear, then wouldn't that part of the bridge wear out(again) first?
The MTA actually considered that. The problem is that unless it was a flying junction, you'd really only be able to run service on one line anyway; without a flyning junction all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
Full grade crossing junctions (configured as a Y) should not limit tph nor slow down the operating speed, as compared to a flying junction. T
Provided that NB and SB trains on each service are scheduled to coincide (not necessarily possible or desireable, given other constraints) and that schedules are upheld.
all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
If they slowed down any more on the Manny B, they'd stop.
Proving operational flexibility isn't a bad thing.
The bridge's current repair program looks like it will take care of the most important problem, so you're proposing a solution to a non-problem. However, operational flexibility is always a good thing, so long as it doesn't impose an unwelcome financial penalty on the TA (eg maintaining revenue tracks which aren't used).
Why don't you write to the TA and ask them, and post the agency's reply here?
The IND certainly had operational flexibility in mind.
That's one thing that's being built into Denver's light rail system - flexibility. Every major junction allows or will allow any train to take one of two possible routings from any direction. Granted there will be unused connections, but if the situation were to arise where a reroute was necessary due to an accident or temporary closure for some other reason, the show can go on.
I have the solution.
Connect all the bridges with light rail (trolley) tracks & vehicles (wood ones at that), (re)build the Second Ave El as a light rail structure, connect all the bridges (Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro & Triboro) to it and have an great tourist attraction. Connect the Triboro bridge line to a new light rail structure in the Bronx, north to Bronx Park and the Zoo. Same thing in Brooklyn, all the way out Flatbush. Using the triboro bridge would facilitate a Bronx/Queens (light) rail connection.
In time (very shortly), the current rubber tired vehicular (truck) traffic and vibrations will render all of these bridges usless except for pedestrian use.
The city really needs to get all the heavy vehicles off the bridges.
After reading the article about the 2nd Ave El on the Thrird Rail site, I think 2nd Ave is the key to future use of the bridges.
The subway, if it is ever finished and connnected will not do anything for the bridges.
This could only be done, assuming it would not compromise the bridge structure in some way, if the three highway lanes on the lower deck were closed. This won't happen.
Let me rephrase that.
The configuration at the north (west) end of the bridge would allow trains running on the A/B tracks to go to either 6th Avenue or Broadway.
The south side configuration would allow Brodaway or Nassau Street, but not 6th Avenue.
Making the north side configuration flexible would require a grade crossing on an incline, which I think the TA would not want to do.
In light of my recent post on R142 vs. R142A, I thought that another IRT comparison was needed. So, what are the differences?
Floors....
R62 Black
R62A Grey or Tan
Outside speakers?
R62 Yes
R62A No
Outside speakers?
There is no such mention of a feature on either car in NYCSubway's R62/A section.
The R-62s were retrofitted with exterior speakers about 10 years ago.
David
Gobble--gobble--gobble!!
8->
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Then why doesn't NYCSubway (or any other NYC transit fan website) mention this?
All R-62's still have latches to keep the storm doors open. R-62A's only have them in operating positions (i.e., either end of a five-car set and either end of a single).
The rectangular sliding windows across from the cabs can still be opened on the R-62's but not on the R-62A's.
The lighting seems a bit dimmer on the R-62's. I don't know why. Fewer light bulbs? Dimmer light bulbs? Dirtier covers? (The R-62's are slightly older.) Less reflective car interiors (due to the floors)? My imagination?
R62A cars 1686-1690 and 2033 have black floors in them.
R62A cars 1686-1690 and 2033 have black floors in them. BTW, are R62s and R62As compatible as R68s and R68As are compatible?
yup... I have seen a picture of an R22 runing with an R62A... Hows that for a salad train...?
R62 R62A
Kawasaki Bombardier
Japanese Canadian
Westinghouse controller General Electric Controller
4 train 1,9,3,5,7,S Trains
Outside Speakers Only Inside Speakers
Best MDBF Second Best MDBF
No More Railfan Window Few Railfan Windows Remain
Large Fonts on side roll signs Small Fonts on side roll signs
Very Fast Semi-Fast
Loveable Likeable
Dependable Dependable
I added a few subway pics on my webpage.
Some side R-32/38 sign settings, an original "Times Sq." station sign on the BMT, an original "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign with arrow on the s/b IRT Times Square platform (don't bother looking for it; it's gone now), and a railfan view of the West End from a slant R-40. Enjoy!
Wow, I like the mechanical crank that changes the tracks. I assume none of those exist anymore in the NYC Subways anymore? What about LIRR or MNRR?
I'm sure there's still some hand-throws out in the yards still, bad idea on revenue trackage though. That's my missus there if you're referring to the "bingbong" picture there. She was kinda enough to provide me a diverge so I could get an Arnine out for folks to play with that day. :)
You were wearing your work face in that pic of you at the handles.:)
I look like that when I drive a car too. :)
A face only a mother could love...on paydays! LOL!
Yeah, well mother STILL threw me a diverge, the hard way. Gots me a foamer sweetie, and she's beefo enough to throw a pair of rails over to the other side to let me have my way. Can't complain even *IF* I be butt ugly. :)
And yeah, she cashed the check. She delirious.
Don't tell me you say moo when you're driving.:)
Nah, usually have my head out the window panting. Woof. :)
^^^"I'm sure there's still some hand-throws out in the yards still"^^^
IIRC, Rockaway Parkway & Fresh Pond still use hand trows. And a
location on a revenue line, where you would not expect to find a
hand trow is on the Shuttle at Grand Central on the westbound side
of track 3 which is a HAND TROW. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I'm not the LEAST bit surprised, in all sincerity. CIY was full of hand-throws also, as was E180 and a few other places of NON-REVENUE RAIL. So stuff THAT in yer stovepipe, Mister Branford. You can't IMAGINE the embarassment of *MOI* (TISH! You spoke FRENCH!) when I had to wait while you butt paraded like a damned trolley in front of my grunting, hissing Arnine while you took yer sweet TIME crossing the iron, reaching up and punching the damned CALL-ON for me. Yep, I'm an INGRATE and damned proud OF it. And I'll *DO IT AGAIN!* Fuzzer. :)
But yeah, Unca Steve went and snagged Bingbong throwing the steel better than the rest of us. Damned railroaders should be ASHAMED. Not *ONLY* could Nancy throw iron better than you guys, she ran 1689 better than *ANY* of us, and I have MIGHTY fragile male ego. She made us look like street beaches. Heh. I'm ashamed of us ALL. Heh.
^^^"Unca Steve went and snagged Bingbong throwing the steel better than the rest of us."^^^
The iron at Shephard is easier to trow, than some of the other
diversions at BERA. >GG<
8-) Sparky
The day we were there, it was a bit fussy. Then again, the entry to the mainline from the high level was particularly finicky until it got a good hard shove. Then it too behaved. Love that "up and over and down" operator. Quite unique. :)
Yeah, Nancy got 1689 rolling merrily along at E above middle C on the straightaway. Now you know why I would have liked to have an outbound run at the handles.:)
You're a lucky man, Kev.
I know. I'm reminded often. :)
With Railfan photography becoming increasingly difficult (see the latest issue of TRAINS magazine) - I think I found the perfect camera:
Casio Color Wrist Camera
Not bad at all ! I remember thier first "wrist watch BW cam "
it was only a few years ago .........!!!!!!
THE NEW COLOR WATCH CAM MUST BE A GREAT INPROVEMENT !!
"176 x 144 pixels"
Better forget about those 8x10 prints ... or 3x5s ... or wallet size .. or ...
Just to give you an idea of how small that is, here is a 176x139 pixel image of Woodhaven Tower in 1931:
I'll wait for the next version of this camera ;-)
I think I saw Elroy wearing something like that on a Jetsons cartoon once. His teacher in school took it away.
The only thing I see is that 176x144 I think the image size was, not even suitable really for posting on a website. With a lot of people nowadays using like 800x600 or higher, that's not going to fill much of the screen. And many details will be lost.
Can someone provide a summary of the applicable part of Trains magazine - it's a bit hard to find here.
Thanks,
Robert King
I was referring to the cover story
Can you give me a rundown of the article? As I said, I haven't been able to find that magazine here.
-Robert King
I only skimmed through it - it tells the story of a railfan who was taking pictures out West somewhere and his wife was visited by the FBI while he was in the field. Still others were detained and questioned for doing nothing more than taking pictures of trains from public property. The article also indicates that the new Office of Homeland Security might be in the process of writing regulations for railfanning and other hobbies.
Thanks for the nutshell version; I've tried several large bookstores downtown and still haven't been able to find a copy of Trains yet. I'd still like to get one just so I can read the article for myself.
I'm not keen on the idea of regulating hobbies in this manner. On the other hand, there may be a beneficial aspect of some degree of regulation because it would concretely set out what is and isn't permissible and would put an end to authorities overstepping their bounds because they'd be clearly defined. However, this does assume the best case scenario of a regulated environment, that the regulations are relaxed and don't interfere with your freedoms (to the most minimal degree possible). I do have the suspicous feeling that if regulations are implemented, that they will be much more draconian than that. Perhaps even to the extent that the authorities won't be overstepping any boundaries at all if they start arresting, detaining and interrogating people photographing trains.
-Robert King
>>> On the other hand, there may be a beneficial aspect of some degree of regulation because it would concretely set out what is and isn't permissible and would put an end to authorities overstepping their bounds because they'd be clearly defined. <<<
The real problem is that the limits are now well defined, no trespassing on private property, but photography from a public place is O.K. It will be absolutely not be helpful to have new regulations making what is now legal, illegal.
>>> I do have the suspicous feeling that if regulations are implemented, that they will be much more draconian than that. Perhaps even to the extent that the authorities won't be overstepping any boundaries at all if they start arresting, detaining and interrogating people photographing trains. <<<
They are likely to be the type that leave it to the discretion of local officials to determine what could be photographed. Something like "No photography of railroad tracks or trains or signals without express permission of an officer of the railroad responsible for security."
Tom
The point I was trying to make was that I'm against regulations if they make currently legal activities illegal.
Another point I was trying to make was that it may be a good thing if regulations nail down for everybody to understand that what is legal IS LEGAL.
-Robert King
I suppose I have some good news to report, then. Yesterday I took 120 photos of the Times Square complex (during the afternoon rush, no less), a few in the presence of police officers, and nobody bothered me.
here is a spy cam from sony thier new U cameras .........
anyone out there seen this one .?...........lol !
******* >>>>>here it is .........lol !
I COULD NOT GET THE UPLOAD FROM THE SONY STYLE SITE .......oh well !
tried to upload the image maybe some other site can do it
anyway go to the SONY STYLE site
go to digital cameras and look ant the U cameras
using 2 aaa batteries they are the smallest full function digital
camera out there !!
much better than a casio watch .........!!
i will get one and shoot a lot of rail transit shots with it 4 sure
www.SubwayInfo.com
Provides Door-To-Door Subway Directions
I would like to announce the launch of a new site, www.SubwayInfo.com. This Web site will give you subway directions from anywhere in New York City to anywhere in New York City.
Email: info@subwayinfo.com
Web Site: www.SubwayInfo.com
Very impressive!!! My only slightly negative comment is that it is perhaps a bit too willing to make you transfer trains even when you check off "fewest transfers".
From 10th St and 2nd Ave in Manhattan to a place along the Culver Line in Brooklyn it told me to walk to the F at 2nd Ave., as it should have.
From 11th and 2nd, it told me to take the L at 3rd Ave and 14th over to the F. That saves me 1/4 mi of walking (5 mins) but requires 2 stops on the L plus 3 more stops on the F (probably close to 15 mins), despite my checking "fewest transfers".
Thank you. However, I am concerned that the SubwayInfo.com site did not give optimum directions. If you send me the addresses you used along with the travel time, I will see if we can make it perform better.
Thanks again for you comments.
Edward Garrity
www.SubwayInfo.com
Thanks!! This is more convient for me, if Im leaving from Home, but I always carry a Subway Map.
Received an 'Application Error' when I tried it.
"Your search SubwayInfo.Com returned no results" >GG<
8-) Sparky
Works fine for me.......
SAME RESULTS AS PREVIOUS POST:
"Your search SubwayInfo.Com returned no results"
Maybe someone will post a link THAT WORKS. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Try this
When I put in "www.subwayinfo.com", my computer changes it to numbers for some reason.
Chris,
Thank you, it worked and did convert to numbers also. See ya later.
Honna go play. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Typo ~ Sorry!!!
Honna = Gonna >GG<
8-) Sparky
I tried it. Nice.
But the best subway directions ever, are on the first page of the short story "Only The Dead Know Brooklyn" by Thomas Wolfe.
You must have be using a DNS that doesn't recognize the site for some reason.
It's designed for cars, i.e. it tells me to walk around the block rather than opposite the one-way street direction.
It seems to need a lot of work. For the starting point I entered several valid addresses near Kings Highway on the Brighton line (Q train), and it didn't recognize any of them. In addition, when I entered 1625 Avenue U, which is only a few feet away from Avenue U on the Brighton, your site suggested that I instead walk to Neck Road.
while I have tried it yet, I suspect they are using software similar to what is offered on bayareatransitinfo That one failed to accept location dirtectly on bus routes, instructed extra bus transfers which induce delays, and other 'typical' glitches. But for someone who doesn't know, its a start. We can only hope they improve it.
I'm actually quite impressed. Yes, it does seem to "drive" you to the subway, adhering to 1-way streets, and it is pretty quick to put you on an extra subway rather than have you walk a short distance more. But I personally haven't been able to give it any address it doesn't recognize, and it's never given me garbage as a route.
I played with it last night already, and was pretty impressed also. Although it didn't recognize many real address I put in. And when it didn't recognize a specific address, it just used the street, and sometimes the directions would send you across town to a totally different end of the street and stations from the address you originally put in. But all in all I think it's a nice little system.
I just tried it with a real street address going to Grand Central Station, 110 East 42nd Street or from
Subway Station at 85 Nassau Avenue in Brooklyn.
Peeing In My Pants Laughing at the directions for various applications
by time and amount of walking/transfers/quickest.
Chris thanks for the directions to get into the sight, have to have a
good rolling laugh on occasion. >GG<
8-) Sparky
It seems to have got Broadway on the Crosstown Line and Broadway on the Astoria Line conflated into one station... talk about a long walk!
Yes, and that was the only one that put me at Grand Central on the
Lexington Avenue Line. All others directed me to 42nd Street &
Sixth Avenue by different routings. None of which were the
easiest.
8-) ~ Sparky
Out of interest, what's quickest anyway?
- G to Court Sq, Metrocard Transfer to 7 to GCT
- G to Court Sq to E/V at 23rd Ely to Lex/51 to 6 to GCT
- G to Metropolitan/Lorimer to L to Union Sq to 4/5 to GCT
- G to Broadway, walk to the J/M at Lorimer to the 4/5 at Chambers to GCT
- G to Hoyt Schermerhorn to A/C to Fulton/Bway-Nassau to 4/5 to GCT
(Out of interest, what's quickest anyway?)
2 trains are almost always quicker than 3, except when one of the 2 trains almost never comes, or there's a huge walk in the transfer. Also, direct routes are almot always faster than the ones that go a few miles out of the way.
So that strikes me as a no-brainer: G to 7 to GCT.
The directions it gave me from my house in the Beford Park section of the Bronx to 151 W. 34th st in Manhattan were totally ridiculous. It directed me to the 205th street Subway station in the Bronx, 8 blocks away, instead of the Beford Park Blvd. station, 2 blocks away. It then told me to take the D train to 42nd Street get off and walk the rest of the way. Travel time of 70 minutes, trip never takes more than 50 minutes. Needs some work, I'd say.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS: The reverse directions were OK.
Peace,
ANDEE
Did you select the correct time zone for your trip? The directions for AM Peak, for example, will be different than the directions for Weekend Evening. The program takes into account which trains run during those times. That may be why the return trip was closer to what you expected.
If you send me the details of what you entered, I will see if the problem can be corrected.
Thank you for the feedback.
When I tried to go from two different street addresses in the Bronx and Queens to MTA HQ (347 Madison Av, NY NY 10017) all I got was a blank screen with my addresses listed at the bottom.
The program needs a little debugging.
Also, I just discovered, it does not work with OPERA.
Peace,
ANDEE
I need to know if you SubTalkers can view my NYC Subway BVE Website:
NYCTBA Website
I notice I can't view the website at all, I might have to transfer my website to www.megspace.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
It's THERE, but Lycos is apparently one of MANY sites under attack at the moment. There's some incredibly nasty things going on right now across the internet and traffic in a number of places is impossible, depending on how much asian/middle east traffic is exposed. This has been going on for a few days now and tonight is kinda over the top for it.
I am getting a can not find server message
Ok Thanks !! I think Im gonna move into www.megspace.com, they offer 50 MB of space and Unlimited Bandwidth.
How much are they charging? Unless its FREE, their deal can't possibly be better than cyberpixels.com-they offer 300 MB and 10 GB bandwidth for only $8/a month. That's where I host my site's 313 pictures (and, hopefully someday, my fantasy NYC Trainz layouts-if I ever finish any of them).
Well megspace.com offeres unlimited bandwidth and 50 MB of Space, I don't need anymore space than that for right now. Megspace.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If you look at the lower left portion of the picture, you will notice something interesting (if you work for the TA, ya might know about this already).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3211796664&category=35
Ho ho ho ho In The Hole. April Fools. CI Peter
The MTA's Subtalk has been around a lot longer, look at this article from the New York Times, which clearly predates the establishment of nycsubway.org:
"The subway now has an on-time record of 90 percent. That's better than a lot of clocks."
"Every subway car is now new or overhauled. Don't you wish you could say that about yourself?"
"Weekend 'A' trains now come more often. If only weekends did, too."
What's this? Clever, even funny ads on New York City's subway cars, that's what. The ads are part of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's "subtalk" campaign aimed at building ridership.
Meanwhile the Transit Authority, the local arm of the M.T.A., has embarked on its own promotional campaign called "Poetry in Motion." Devised by Gannett Outdoor New York, an advertising business, with an assist from the Poetry Society of America, the T.A.'s ads display verses from Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman's "Crossing Brooklyn Bridge" and others.
The ads are cheerier and more literate than the usual fare, like the posters touting laser surgery for hemorrhoids and clinics that repair torn earlobes. The larger point, however, is that the M.T.A. and T.A. have earned the right to toot their own horns.
In 1984 they vowed to erase graffiti, refurbish old cars and buy sleek new ones. They did it all. In a city where the simplest projects seem to take forever, the completion of a formidable task is not only a tribute to the two agencies. It's a big boost to public morale.1
1"Poetry in the Subways," Topics of the Times, New York Times 18 Dec. 1992, late ed.: A38
That's very interesting!
Yeah, and so far they haven't complained.
FYI:
THe last 20 R-32s left at Coney Island, and used on the N, are:
3598/3599, 3602/3603, 3608/3609, 3622/3623, 3626/3627,
3638/3639, 3648/3649, 3724/3725, 3808/3809, 3816/3817.
Any and all observations would be greatly appreciated. When these are transferred, it will no longer be possible to see R-32s on the N. They have also turned up on the W weekends on occasion.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Add: 4520-9 replaced one of the R32 consists not mentioned in your post.
Where else are the R32s assigned today? I realize the E has the biggest group, plus I've seen them on the C and R. But anywhere else? There are still about 590 active cars in the group.
They are also on the A line
And the F line has been seeing a few of these a day.
Jamaica & Pitkin only. That limits their use to the E/F/G/R/V/A/C
I saw an R-32 set on the N this afternoon at 5:00 at Times Square (SB), north motor 3623.
No More R32 on the N? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Since 9/8/02, I only seen no more than 2 R32 pop up on the W.
we should make a poll not subtalk but nycsubway.org, on the best car class, line, in each category, like have a poll for cleanliness, announcement, crowding, usefullness, tph, the actual line, the cars ect
My thread about the Wacky Packages is GONE!! I was having so much fun with it. A few other Sub/Talkers were having a good time with it too. Who ever pulled the thread, spoiled all the fun. DRAT!!!! Oh Well!!
#3 West End Jeff
Musta been Unca Dave. The thread was as off-topic as any.
Gotta keep that rail content.
I know that the thread was off topic, but Unca dave spoiled the fun. I guess that we can't have everything. Oh Well.
#3 West End Jeff
At least you can now have an equally OT thread about deleted OT threads!
This OT thread about OT threads might continue until it is too deleted.
#3 West End Jeff
join my redbird msn group if you want to
especailly those who appreciate the more traditional type of
railcar the r36 & older irt fleet was .......
enter this into your url
paste then join ............... enjoy !! .........thankz ......
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
International News - March 2, 2003
Italian Cop Killed in Train Shootout
March 2, 2003 11:58 PM EST
ROME - A wanted Red Brigades terrorist whose false identity papers were being checked by police on a train started shooting Sunday, killing one officer and wounding another before he was gunned down, authorities said.
The gunman's female companion, another alleged Red Brigades member, also was arrested, Italian state television said.
The Italian news agency ANSA said doctors and other staff were refusing to give any information of the death of Mario Galesi, whom the Italian interior minister Giuseppe Pisanu recently described as a Red Brigades terrorist wanted in connection with the 1999 slaying of a labor reform adviser to the Italian government.
The woman passenger, state television reported, refused to answer investigators' questions after she was arrested, declaring only that she was a "political prisoner," a throwback to the stance of members of the extreme-left Red Brigades gang, which terrorized Italy in the 1970s and 1980s with kidnappings and assassinations.
The ultra-leftist group arose out of the student protest movement of the late 1960s. Its ideology advocated class warfare and revolution, and most of its attacks targeted politicians and businessmen.
Later, it advocated Italy's withdrawal from NATO.
Authorities warned that the extreme-left Red Brigades could be planning new attacks to coincide with a U.S.-led war on Iraq.
After a decade of calm when it was widely believed the Red Brigades had been largely wiped out, the slayings of two government advisers since 1999 have sparked fears that the group had revived.
Sunday's shooting occurred as two policemen checked the identity papers of the two passengers on the early morning local train from Rome to Florence.
"The passenger put a gun to the head of one of the policemen and fired," an unidentified witness in the largely empty car told Italian state radio. "Then he fired several more shots" at the second officer, who suffered a serious lung wound.
A top national police official, Alessandro Pansa, told reporters the gunman opened fire "because they were afraid about the checks on the documents, which weren't clean." He did not say whether the documents were stolen or if the names on them were invented.
It was not clear whether the policemen approached the pair because they recognized them, were suspicious or were carrying out a random check.
Italian police can demand identification under anti-terrorism legislation enacted when the country was battling domestic terrorism from the extreme right and left in the 1970s and 1980s.
State television quoted investigators as saying the pair likely was planning an attack. Besides the pistol, the couple had a miniature camera hidden in a cigarette package, the report said.
RAI state television said the companion was identified as Nadia Desdemona Lioce, 43. Other news reports said the gunman was Mario Galesi, 37, and both suspects were wanted for the 1999 slaying on a Rome street of Massimo D'Antona, a labor reform consultant for the government.
The killing of D'Antona was the first Red Brigades attack in 11 years. Last year, gunmen in Bologna gunned down another labor reform consultant, Marco Biagi, outside his apartment building.
Enzo Bianco, the head of the Italian Parliament's oversight committee on secret services, warned that the Red Brigades and an associated terrorist group, the Fighting Communist Party, "could broaden the scope of their possible
The medical examiner found evidence of 54 more bodies in the remains. Still no word as if the deaths were caused by fumes of fire.
When was the express service on the West Farms El implemented? And also when did 4 trains start skipping 138th?
Today's edition of DESTINATION:FREEDOM has many interesting articles on northeast-area rail projects. The table of contents is below; I've highlighted some of the topics mentioned often on SubTalk. Click here to access the newsletter.
* The National Corridors Initiative’s 2003 Conference
* Bay state signs deal: New commuter rail operator in Boston
* House subcommittees support railroad, airport connections links
* Hutchison pledges to fight for Amtrak
* S&P may cut Amtrak’s ‘BBB-minus’ rating
* The ‘fat lady’ has not sung (Downeater 79mph story)
* Rails spread under Texas GulfLiner
* Amtrak looks to cut jobs
* Amtrak continues Missouri service
* Ohio could lose all Amtrak service under Bush’s plan, say Ohioans
* Augusta looks for trains
* Georgia solon looks for fast-tracks cash
* Commuter lines…
* Greenbush restoration hits a snag
* Blue Line expansion to Lynn inches forward
* Connecticut stations scaled back; Shore Line East is in a service quandary
* PATH writes WTC station timetable
* JFK rail link may be ready by June
* Third track ‘not derailed,’ says LIRR
* D.C. Subway may see longer hours
* Charlotte’s trolleys aren’t what the used to be
* Minnesotans pitch commuter rail to governor
* Hastert helps Metra extend route
* Economic engine must fuel new line
* Albuquerque unveils light rail plan
* FTA okays California rail corridor pact
* A California idea; Developers look for commuters; build homes near new stations
* West Seattle merchants unhappy over monorail
* APTA Highlights…
* Policy Forum Showcases Research Supporting Federal Transit Investment
* Coalition of Local Officials Urges Increased MPO Control Over TEA 21 Funds
* Howlett Named President of Rotary Lift
* Charles Shannon Dies; VIA Board Chair
* House T&I Committee Names Leadership, New Members
* Transit Rallies as East Coast Digs Out from Severe Snowstorm
* Congress Funds Federal Transit Program at $7.2 Billion in FY 2003
* Sound Transit Wins Constitutional Challenge Against Initiative 776
* ATC Appoints Two New General Managers
* Labor lines…
* Labor fears for Amtrak workers
* Where does the retirement cash come from?
* Station lines…
* Culpeper depot, 98, gets funding to finish repairs
* Desolate Berkeley station to get makeover
* Freight lines…
* CSX moves to Jacksonville
* Rail industry lobbies Capitol Hill
* CSX completes sea lines sale to equity firm
* NS says territory benefited from development
* Beans, of all things: NS finds unique way to longer track life
* Wichita corridor project ready for bids
* FEC wants to merge two stock classes
* Texas solon wants to add freight line to highway route
* Winter storm takes bite out of rail traffic
* Selected Friday closing quotes...
* Canadian lines…
* Canadians at odds over proposed amendments
* Overseas lines…
* Bombardier opens China offices
* ALSTOM to refurbish Atlanta cars
* South Korea subway toll now 189
* Shinkansen engineer falls asleep
* Off the main line…
* Less smog from cog railway
* The way we were...
* End notes...
Thank you. I've added this link to my favored bookmarks.
Even Republicans are getting into the act.
Thanks, Todd,
I find especially interesting more details on the fact that we're going to have an outdoor PATH station in lower Manhattan, at least temporarily...
(I find especially interesting more details on the fact that we're going to have an outdoor PATH station in lower Manhattan, at least temporarily... )
The article says "roofed but not fully enclosed or heated"
From what I see of the construction going on, there isn't likely to be much natural light in the station. Sort of like Penn if you go all the way to the west end of the platforms.
That sucks, they should build at least ONE terminal in NYC that's got a glass ceiling to the open sky, and an 'open' atmosphere to it.. GCT is a GREAT terminal, but even it's trainshed is a dump. I hope MN gets around to cleaning (and lighting!) it up nicer some day....
Destination Freedom has a lot of interesting material. I just wish that whomever supports their web site learned how to separate each article into a single page…
Hidden amongst the announcements was that PATH intends to support Metrocard for fare payments by late 2003/early 2004. I think this is great news: one less card to carry around in the wallet. However, I wonder how this will work in the contect of:
NJT ticket machines (most of them) dispense multi-trip PATH cards. Will they be retrofitted for metrocards? Will they just dispense fixed-value cards (ie no recharging/replacement)?
Stay tuned…
The was an article in the NY POST today that mentioned that the path will soon accept metrocard
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/69801.htm
"Meanwhile, MetroCards are expected to get "smarter" next year.
The MTA and Port Authority are working on a new automated system that would give PATH riders the chance to use a SmartCard to pay their fare.
Both agencies are working on a system where MetroCards could also be used on PATH trains - a plan that would benefit New Jersey commuters who transfer to MTA-operated buses and subways"
It would be smart for the MTAA to sell path the cuurent turnsyles it is removing to install HEET's
It would be smart for the MTAA to sell path the cuurent turnsyles it is removing to install HEET's
Not really. I think the PATH/MTA collaboration will only happen with the next generation of Metrocard...some kind of contactless RF transmitter system. But that's only my opinion. And I haven't read the articles yet.
---Brian
Maybe that's why the MTA is trying to get riders to keep refilling their cards, instead of discarding them.
The only modification that is needed is a new RF-Reciever to be added to the current metrocard. The physical turnstyle has nothing to do with the type of metrocard used. The TA will have plenty of extra surplus turnstyles that PATH could put to good use.
The RF-Recieves is tiny and could be placed right next to the current metrocard swipe area
Does anyone know the diameter of the wheels on the R29's?
Last Weekend Service Changes poster regarding the 3 section L line G.O.:
"Trains runs in three sections- ....between Rockaway Park and Bedford Ave."
Is NYCT so confused between Rockaway Parkway and Rockaway Park, or did I miss a secret flyover linking Broadway Junction on the L, directly through a tunnel to the A and C lines at Liberty Ave?
Naw, its just one of their thousands of mistakes, like the route for the B20 on the Brooklyn bus map for the last ten years (Schaeffer St is closed!) But I like the sound of that Atlantic Av-Liberty Av connection, though...
No, they tore down the el on Pitkin that connected the Canarsie Line to the Liberty Av El a few years ago.
Yeah, like 40+ years ago.
It'll be 47 years ago this July 4th weekend.
Wow. Did they start demolition at the stroke of midnight on the day after service closed in '56? Abandoned els usually stick around for a year or two (or 10 for the Culver Shuttle).
Prbably started tearing down the Fulton St El after the holiday weekend.
"Is NYCT so confused between Rockaway Parkway and Rockaway Park, or did I miss a secret flyover linking Broadway Junction on the L, directly through a tunnel to the A and C lines at Liberty Ave?"
Actually, there is a tunnel veering off to the left (nb side), just south of the Bway-ENY Station of the "A" "C". I believe that either leads or used to lead to the Bway Junction yard.
If you're talking about the tunnel heading/blowout, I read in one of the History of the IND that it was to have been a branch that would have ran along Jamaica Ave. I never read it in any of the websites for the IND Second System or anywhere else for that matter.
So, then this too is a mistry, like "76th ST. Station, Who didn't do it.
I think it was for a Jamaica El capture.
avid
Does anyone know the exact. lengths of the Manhattan Bridge (tracks), and the Montague, 53, 60, and 63 St Tunnels?
Sorry, can't help you on these, but I do know that the 7's East River Tunnel (Steinway) is approx 1.6 miles long (with 0.8 miles underwater).
I just renewed my MBTA Photo Permit (after a year's lapse), with no problem. It was quick and easy. Go to the 6th Floor of 10 Park Plaza (nearest Green Line station = Boylston or Arlington), and find the Marketing and Communications Department (you'll need to show ID and sign-in at the second floor guard station). They'll take care of it for you. The permit specifies you must be in public areas only, and no flash, floodlight, or tripod usage allowed.
While at 10 Park Plaza, be sure to look up George Sanborn in the MBTA Library on the second floor (he's also the MBTA Historian and a Senior Trustee of the Seashore Trolley Museum). He always has great stories to tell.
Todd, Thanks for the very valuable input !
Mr t
What a mono, bi or quadrapod?
Effective at Midnight on March 17th, CSX Seneca yard will cease operations as a cost cutting measure, most of its work shifted to the nearby Frontier yard. The former NYC yard located on the south side of Buffalo near CP-5 on the Chicago Line was located at the junction of the former PRR/CR Buffalo Line, now owned by NS.
Hopefully the recent tax legislation passed in NY will stop CSX frop ripping out the tracks and whatnot and there's a chance that the yards proximity to the NS Buffalo Line, NS Nickle Plate Line and several other shortlines might see alternative uses for the yard.
If the SW1500 were equipped with HEP generators, how would they perform on the tracks? HP? Fuel tank capacity? Supplemental aspects would be helpful.
What is the capacity of the HEP generator? For commuter operations you're looking at 400-700kw which is like 300-500hp taken off the engine leaving like 1000 available for traction. That'll be enough for a 3-6 car commuter train, reaching speeds of 65-80mph with acceleration that might be a bit iffy.
A lot iffy. There's a 15 - 20% transmission loss on top of that. That leaves about 800hp at the wheel, which over 3 - 6 cars wouldn't be a lot.
Max engine output is %10 higher than the rated hp to account for auxilliary equipment and transmission loss. For example, the new NJT diesel has a 4200hp engine with a c.750kW HEP takeoff. The power at rail figure was quoted at 3620 which is exactly 4200 - HEP.
Its been this way since the early 50's.
Anyway, back in the day on the PRSL, 1500hp Baldwins would haul 9-12 P-70's at up to 85mph.
IIRC, the MP-15s the LIRR used are SW1500s with 'road' trucks, and alternator/rectifier instead of a DC generator (less sparking, longer life). The LIRR ran them at 65max, due to braking considerations, and they'd hit that speed, but with 5 or 6 cars they'd take a LONG time to get there, even on flat land. I don't recall the exact weight of the demotored MP-72/75 cars, but I believe it was actually sub 100,000 lbs, so it's a light train. The DE-30s can outpace them by far, but then, I recall the GP-38 could beat them too. They tended to be stuck on the Oyster Bay line and other out of the way places where they'd stay out of trouble.
I guess for a small service (like, 3 cars) with long distances (say 5 or 10 miles) between stops and few grades/restrictions, it could make sense, but with a 2 or 3 or even 4 car train, the argument for DMU operation is strong (and even stronger as station spacing drops), though if you were running in non or poorly signalled trackage with proximity to large freights, a loco at each end would allow at least some protection, though there's really no excuse for a train - train collision in this day and age, anywhere, regardless of equipment.
You are right about the MP15's. You rarely saw a train without a GP38 on the Montauk/Patchogue or Port Jefferson trains. On the contrary, you quite often saw to MP15's (and no GP38-2) on the Oyster Bay branch or the Greenport to Ronkonkoma run --- like you said, probably to stay out of trouble.
Interestingly as a sidenote, I seem to remember sometimes in the winter two lone parlor cars (with the red stripes) sandwiched between 2 MP15's quite often on the weekend Greenport Scoot, when the parlor cars were not really often used on the Montauk Branch in the winter. No regular cars on those runs!
Oh heavens.....
Southern Pacific used to pull two gallery cars with one GP-9 (1750hp IF it was all there....) And that GP-9 would be straining at the gills. The train could barely keep schedules.
And if the train was three or more cars, they'd try to find a second GP-9. Made all the difference in the world.
I was on the very last run of one of their F-M H24-66's, #3031. It made it from San Jose to Santa Clara, coasting in the last half mile. Crew got on the radio, and was told by the dispatcher to grab the SW1500 sitting at the end of the yard. We left about 5-6 minutes late, but the SW-1500 got us back on time before we got to Bayshore (just outside San Francisco).
The SW-1500 has the low-end acceleration, and if the stations are close enough, can do it (without head-end power sucking the orsepower away). If a run requires high-speed operation, I don't think it could handle that.
For those interested in the economic side of transit, you may note that the MTA's website now publishes both operational and budgetary data under "performance." The budgetary data isn't anything that couldn't be had from the FTA, albeit with a time lag, or from other reports, with a little work. But some may find the summary useful.
More significant is an article in today's Daily News, in which the MTA identified the bus lines which cover the smallest share of their costs. If the TA can do it for those lines, it can do it for other lines.
Several years ago, President Reuter spoke at NYC Planning where I worked at the time. He brought John Tucker, newly installed at OP, with him. During question time I asked if the TA compiled cost data on both the marginal and average cost per ride, by line, and by time of day. My question was intended to be a lead to a question about peak hour pricing -- peak hour service would be identified as expensive if properly costed because a significant share of the TA's trackage, cars, employees, etc. are only used at peak hour.
After fumbling for exactly how to put it, Tucker indicated that the data wasn't compiled because "it depends on whose ox is getting gored." In other words, rather than being a management tool to decide where and when to alter service, such data would likely be politicized, especially since it would probably be revealed that lines in better off, low density areas are more heavily subsidized.
Nonetheless, I think it's important that this information be compiled, made available, and used in decisionmaking. Cost per ride isn't the only factor -- you need to provide lifeline service in some places and at some times -- but it is a factor that shouldn't be ignored. Perhaps, with ridership data available in more detail thanks to Metrocard, the TA will begin to cost things out in more detail. I'm all for it.
He's right -- it's so much easier to justify road budgets, since each mile is cheap, and you need a mile of it everywhere in front of everyone's houses. Even then, think of the brouhaha when certain potholes get fixed.
Lots of subway riders gets subsidized -- nighttime workers, suburban commuters who could spend more and drive, downtown workers who could dig deep and spend two thousand a month to park, the working poor. And most of us give back a lot of it, but we shouldn't be expected to pay exactly for the miles of track that we use. We need, as a giant "board of directors", to keep it loose and not micromanage. I don't mind subsidizing others, if it makes the entire system more useful and efficient. But if you put it in front of the voters, every inch of track will come under scrutiny, and inch by inch, they'll take "everybody else's" subways away until we don't have any.
Just a theory. In practice, I agree with you, Larry.
[In other words, rather than being a management tool to decide where and when to alter service, such data would likely be politicized, especially since it would probably be revealed that lines in better off, low density areas are more heavily subsidized.]
In plain English, the debate shifts from city-versus-suburb to inner-city-versus-outer-city.
(In plain English, the debate shifts from city-versus-suburb to inner-city-versus-outer-city.)
It's nowhere near that simple. The G is neither inner-city nor outer-city, but gets a lot less usage per employee than the Lex (which in turn has a mix of inner city and outer city riders).
The Sea Beach and Rockaway Park lines also get low usage per employee and are very much outer city. But the Brighton gets much more usage per employee and is as much outer city as the Sea Beach.
Don't assume the results. There is marginal cost to consider. The Lex at rush hour may have the lowest average cost, but it has the highest marginal cost because accomodating a significant increase in ridership would require -- a $12 billion subway.
I'd like to see the results. Because in the political climate of the day, it is always assumed that those with darker skins are more foreign accents are draining everyone else. I'm not sure that assumption holds up; it certainly doesn't hold up all the time.
In any event, when you have the community protesting against a bus line that covers 15 percent of its operating costs (ie. the B71) CANCEL IT and make the pandering pols and pontificating activists beg to get it back. Could have used those buses elsewhere, for those who are appreciative.
Don't assume the results. There is marginal cost to consider. The Lex at rush hour may have the lowest average cost, but it has the highest marginal cost because accomodating a significant increase in ridership would require -- a $12 billion subway.
And of course the opposite can be true too. The G certainly must have high costs given its low ridership, but service could be doubled at reasonably low cost.
"The Sea Beach and Rockaway Park lines also get low usage per employee and are very much outer city. But the Brighton gets much more usage per employee and is as much outer city as the Sea Beach."
The problem with the sea beach is not frequent enough service. No express service. And the proximity to the F, B and brighton . The brighton drains off many passengers who want faster access into the city.
The TA needs to right size it's services. 15 min service on the weekend on the sea beach scares people off from taking it. Plus add in the station are dank and you got a service that is used less then it should. If there were more frequent service the sea each would be used to go shoping because the sea beach connect many major shopping districts in brooklyn.
Scheduled headways on the N train are 8 minutes most of the day on Saturdays and 10 minutes most of the day on Sundays. Where did that 15 minute headway figure come from?
David
I may have exagerated a bit with the N. I ment to talk about the N and R together. I often concider them complimentary services along the 4th Ave and on broadway.
Look at the schedule closely and there are a few 10, 12, 20 minute headways especially as you head into the evening hours.
The T on the other hand runs at 15 min intervals for large portions of sunday and equally terrible 10 and 12 minute intervals on saturday and some off peak times
My point nether the less is that it is in the riders best interest to run 4-car inteligent OPTO with much shorter wait times then the current schedulal. It has the potential to save money and resources that could be spent elsewhere and also reduce the wait service making both the N and R usefull to people other then to go too and from manhattan. Right now the schedule does not meet the needs of the people along the lines
(The TA needs to right size it's services.)
Why is it that when it comes to token booths you are all for NYCT doing what's economical and streamlined, yet with the Sea Beach you want them to spend money to attract customers who aren't there.
If you are a voice of reason you need to study some economics. If you make a service twice as good you rarely get twice the market (this is based on the phenomenon of elasticity of demand). NYCT ought to make the stations livable, because that is a basic part of the service everywhere. But adding trains when there aren't enough people to fill up the existing trains just spends money.
The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there.
"The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there."
Not trying to jump on your case, specifically. But one train of thought never seems to be talked about here. Should there not be planning done for future growth? Not that I'm inviting or even liking the possibility, but....houses do get knocked down, eventually. And usually higher density proceeds in kind. Check out the developments that went on up 20th Ave near McDonald. Also, I remember when Elmhurst, Queens wasn't as dense as it is now. But so many new triple family and "mini-apartment buildings" were shoved into former single family home plots that the neighborhood completely changed. More anonymous in texture....Grand Avenue is so damn busy.
So for that reason the Sea Beach line needs improvements. And yeah, that includes a higher TPH number. Plenty of people on that line own cars. That's a good subgroup to target. It'd be a good test of the efficiency of mass transit vs. private auto. Attract more of the, for Brooklyn, the Middle Class. Even get really interesting, squeeze in some commuter-type scheduling. Non stop from 59th Street, Brooklyn to Herald Square! (For that I'd easily pay four bucks. Am I crazy?)
Within a year or so you'd start to see more apartment buildings getting built. Decent ones. And so the ridership would increase. And so on. Haven't we seen this pattern elsewhere in Brooklyn? If it can happen in Park Slope, it can happen in Bensonhurst. The stuff I hear here, you'd think all these neighborhoods were frozen in time like some Outer Limits scenerio. Well, they're not. And like it or not, the future of cities, barring some fantastic new transport mechanism development, is dependant on their rail lines. Not that I'm saying YOU like it or not....just a point in general.
In fact in bensonhurst, there has been a steady transformation of large single family home's being converted into 3-4 family condo type buildings. There is definitly plenty of room for growth around the sea beach. If there were more frequent faster service, land around the sea beach would become more valuable to developers thus creating new housing and potentially more ridership.
The area around sheapshead bay station has seen two large apartment building developements go up in the last 3 years with a major drawing card being the fast express train service into manhattan.
The Oceana development near the Brighton Beach Sop on the Q uses the fast express train service to premote the property to people currently living in manhattan and park slope who would not ordinarily look in brihgton beach.
There is much improvement and pleny of devlopement opurtunity along both the sea beach and west end that goes untapped because the relative time it takes to get to manahattan. Many west end and Bay ridge commuters take fast ferries and express buses and shun the W, N and R because of the slow ride.
Along the N there is plenty of development opurtunity around Ft hamilton Parkway station as well as New Utrich station. On this stretch of the Sea Beach there are numerouse old warehouses and other low slung building that could be developed into housing. Some housing has already been built.
"The TA needs to right size it's services.)
Why is it that when it comes to token booths you are all for NYCT doing what's economical and streamlined, yet with the Sea Beach you want them to spend money to attract customers who aren't there."
Tooken booths are a dinasaur that provide little service to the riding public. They were rendered redundent with the introduction of metrocard and the myrid of ways to purchace metrocard(MVM, MEM, Local stores, subscription). If all tokken booths were eliminated tommorrow, the riding public would still have plenty of options to buy it's fare and would have no problem accessing stations. The sky is not falling in in chicargo, or dc and even at PATH. IF you read the MTA website fare policy presentation, the new pricing scheme is designed to further encourage riders to buy more per transaction further reducing the need for tooken booths. In essense they are passing the savings along to the rider. (in economic speak the more one buys at a time reducing the need for MVM maintance, need for station agents, etc reduces the cost of goods sold)
"If you are a voice of reason you need to study some economics. If you make a service twice as good you rarely get twice the market (this is based on the phenomenon of elasticity of demand). NYCT ought to make the stations livable, because that is a basic part of the service everywhere. But adding trains when there aren't enough people to fill up the existing trains just spends money.
I possess a BS in Accounting with a minor in finace, economics and marketing. The price elasticity of demand curve is shifted when a better product that people want is put forth into the marketplace.
If you read my post closely you will see that I am not preposing twice as many full length trains(at twice the cost)
I am preposing a shorter cheaper to operate inteligent OPTO tm based service. This scheme could be used on the r as well as the N.
In essence deploying current equiptment and staff in a more effecient manner. Instead of running all trains with 8 75ft cars with 2 crew members aboard at 8-10 min intervals during rush hour, run 4-8 car trains(depending on ridership needs, if more riders materialize add more cars) using inteligent OPTO tm with 6 minute intervals. One of the 4th AVE services(either the N or R) would need to operate express from 59th street to reduce the travel time with riders from one service having the opurtunity to transfer to the other
During OFF Peak Hours and on weakends headway could be reduced to 6-8 minuted from headways that aproach 12 min during the day on the R. The reduced headways once again won't increase costs because inteligent OPTO tm will be used. The use of OPTO will slightly reduce the total number of seats and staff. Some or all of the savings attributed to few wotkers will go towards paying the OPTO differntial to the remaing T/O's
The net result is fewer overall cars, employee's and seats but an improved frequency of service. The increased service will draw people away from competing services such as express buses during rush hour, cars and car service. It will encourage off peak ridership which is largely shunned due to the long headways. If people know that when they head to the station a train will come shortly, they will take the train more often. Over time people will start using the sea beach for leasure travel Even if ridership increases only 10% it is a huge increase in revenue without an increase in operating costs.
This is much the same way subway ridership in general increased during the 1990's as the MTA began to clean away the graphitti and reduce the number of train breakdowns and delays. The service became more reliable and people like myself began to use the subway more for leasure travel into the city where in the past I would have drove or just not gone into the city at all.
THE IMPROVED PRODUCT : More frequent service - Possible an express service. The feeling by customers that the train will come shortly
THE COST TO OPERATE : Less then or equal to the current cost
ADDITIONAL BENNIFITS: Excess 4 car sets could be transfered to the Q to run 4 car OPTO on the Q weeknights starting at 9pm(brighton terminal) and ending at 7 AM without increasing the cost due to breaking upand puting trains back together
"The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there."
The TA is not providing the right size service to sea beach and 95th street bound R riders. Spread a slightly smaller number of seats on shorter more frequent trains and the value proposition of taking a bus to the brighton, west end or culver line vs. taking the sea beach which may take a slightly longer time on train but, reduce the time to get to the train and wal la more riders.
There is a nice sized untapped market of rider's looking to travel from point to point along the 4th ave and sea beach line who now drive or take car service or just stay home that would take the train the same waypeople take the train to get around manhattan. Any additional rider is money in the bank.
Inteligent OPTO tm uses CCTV camera's mounted on the platform who's Images are wirelessly transmitted into the T/O operators cab and displayed either on flat pannel monitors or through a heads up projection. Using Inteligent OPTO tm reduces some of the negatives associated with traditial OPTO. For one dwell time is decreased because the T/O does not have to cross the cab to operate the doors. Safety is improved over traditional OPTO and current 2 man crew practices due to the fact that the T/O has full view of the Platform on his monitor to check for dragger then the current Conductors hanging his head out the window for three car lengths. The money spent on installing this system won't be wasted when CBTC is installed. The camera's could continue to be used by the train crew.
As for the tm after inteligent OPTO. I am thinking to trademark the term so if the MTA ever decides to impliment the system I can claim fee for all the work I have put into promoting the plan.
Thanks for the details.
I agree, more frequent OPTO trains could make the Sea Beach more attractive to customers without raising NYCT costs. There are also tricky issues related to the fact that the trains get a lot more crowded in Manhattan, but those can be addressed with proper care.
«but those can be addressed with proper care»
Just make it a shuttle.
Arti
The broadway local line is not used as much as other local services in manahattan such as the lex. The average Broadway local rider only takes the train for a few stops. This is partially due to the fact that the broadway local especially off peak times does not come as often.
If you take a look at the platforms while flying by on the broadway express they are sometimes crowdrd only due to the fact that the trains never seem to come. Reduce the wait time and one would assume that you would reduce the crowd on the platform.
Reduce the wait time and you may also draw more riders which would require more service. This would definitly need to be studied closely and adjusted if needed. Some of the riders especially those who will not be getting off at local stops will choose to take the express where now they take the first train to come in. In addtion riders who may need the N in brookly will take the Q/W express service and transfer in brookly where the trains will be less crowded. I already see this behavior by N riders who try to save time by taking the bridge service and transfer to the N at dekalb or pacific.
At night and on weekends the broadway local would draw many more leasure riders if the trains would come more often. Many people knowing that the train does not comes as often cabs rather then to wait for a train. Manhattanites are very fickle and with other option available they tend to take the option that is the easiest.
I take clases on sat and sunday at 34th street hearald sqaure. You would think it is the middle of rush hour to look how crowed the platform is. Then you look and people a yawning because of the long wait. How many people stay home or take other means of tranist because of the wait.
Pre manhattan bridge flip my girlfreind was working in Union Square and myself neat macy's. It was often just easier to walk down or not go rather then take the train. The train seemed to never come. Many people shyed away from using the service in manahatan because of the wait
4 car OPTO during rush hour on the broadway line is a tricky issue. Based on current ridership data and personal observation 4-car inteligent OPTO could work but there are some serious issue that need to be adressed
1) Cross platform transfers - Over time people will know which car they need to be in to complete a cross platform transfer. Take a look at people current habits, many people choose to ride in the car that leaves them closes to their exit. Conductors will need to announce a few to riders that inorder for a quick cross platform transfer the rider must be in X car.
2)Properly marking the platforms to notify people where the train will stop. Currently the MTA is doing a poor job of this on the F OPTO service. This is very important
The beuty of inteligent OPTO vs. Regualar OPTO is that you can run longer then 4 car trains if needed. Inteligent OPTO should be deployed. It will enhance what riders really want which is more frequent service.
How much will this "intelligent OPTO" really cost? So far you need new trainsets where you want to deploy this service (since the cost of retro-fitting current equipment to open both sides from one position, adding monitors for CCTV and the associated wireless receivers is probably cost as well as space prohibitive) and vandal-proof CCTV cameras (with some sort of wireless transmission system to the operating cab) at every station where this service might stop.
The system will not cost as much as you might think. It will pay for itself in a rather short period of time. There are defintly costs involved in deploying the service.
There are various transmission technologies that would be capable of cheaply transmitting the analog or digital video signal. As for the camera's themselves, there costs have come down dramatically over the past few years. There are numerous platforms on the brighton that already have CCTV systems covering parts of the platform. To the best of my knowledge, vandlaism has not been a major issue. The camera casings at Sheapshead bay and kings highway appear to be in rather prestine shape
The only car series that would make sense to rewire is the R-68/R68A. With the comming order of R-160 series cars there may be enough cars available to test such a service out.
Train lines that have full platform coverage could run 8 car trains with one crew memember safely. This is a tremdous cost savings.
To tell you the truth The sea beach/4th Ave/Broadway line could theoretically run Non Inteligent 4-car OPTO with realative ease due to the fact that the large majority of platforms are on T/O side of the Car
A detailed cost bennifit analysis would need to be done before widespread deployment of such a system. Concidering many platforms already have CCTV camera's to assist Train Operators. Further deployment should not be that difficult
Excellent points.
Link to Daily News Article.
--Mark
What are the signals for the Washington Metro?
I do know it is somewhat like this:
White-proceed
Red-stop
Blinking yellow or blinking "X"-caution
Flashing white is caution. The signals have three aspects. The top and bottom are red, the middle is white. There is no "X".
Signals are really not useful. Rumor has it they won't even trip a train because the trains all have cab signalling (and that will trip you).
The signal will most likley have 4 aspects: STOP, CLEAR, DIVERGING and ABSOLUTE BLOCK, probably shown by R, LW, *LW* and ?
Of course the "signals" will not trip a train. Intermittant ATS systems are not used on cab signaled lines that have an failsafe absolute stop code.
Red over Red means stop and stay, Lunar means clear with switch set to normal direction, flashing Lunar at some of the newer interlockings and upgraded installations means clear with switch set to reverse 'diverging route' direction. Flashing lunar, are currently installed at the following locations.
B09 Forest Glen
B10 Wheaton
B11 Glenmont
C07 Pentagon
C97 C&J Junction J Line turnout
D98 D&G Junction
E01 Mount Vernon Square
E03 U Street
E05 Georgia Avenue
E06 Fort Totten
E07 West Hyattsville
E08 Prince George's Plaza
E09 College Park
F03 L'Enfant Plaza
F05 Navy Yard
F06 Anacostia
F08 Southern Avenue
F09 Naylor Road
F11 Branch Avenue
J02 Van Dorn
J03 Franconia-Springfield
At the facing point of the switch that access pocket tracks running in the reverse direction of normal travel is a P signal. This signal is dark when there is no train occupying the track circuit adjacent to the P signal. The P signal indicates to atrain operator that has reversed normal direction of travel that he/she may manually set signal and switch to enter pocket track.
Somehow I am not able to catch on to your explanation of the P signals. I don't know if this one falls into that, but at Grosvenor, trains entering the pocket get a flashing lunar.
"Somehow I am not able to catch on to your explanation of the P signals. I don't know if this one falls into that, but at Grosvenor, trains entering the pocket get a flashing lunar."
Not all pocket track are equipped with "P" signals. "P" signals are only visible to trains approaching pocket track interlocking on tracks against the normal flow of traffic. see Farragut North interlocking.
Apparently the Grosvenor pocket track interlocking has been upgraded to display flashing lunar when switch is set reverse (diverging route). My list of interlocking that use flashing lunar is about 5 years old.
OK. Grosvenor is most definately able to display flashing lunar, I see it many mornings.
From what I undersand, the LIRR used to run power packs on pax trains considering of a Gp38 supporting HEP and a MP15. The MP15 pushed the train, not the GP38. Correct? How powerful was the MP15? I seen it push 10 car trains.
Also, how are the view in engine-foward locos?
I think it was 2 MP-15's coupled together, one for traction, one for HEP.
No many trains had just one MP15 with a GP38-2 on the other end. What you are thinking of are some trains (mostly oyster Bay) which just had two MP15's coupled together, then yes then one was used for traction and the other for HEP.
I believe however that when a GP38 was on the train, it did both push or pull, with the MP15 (or F unit) for controlling if the GP38 was on the back. The GP38's were usually on the east end of the train, except for some long train Montauk runs which would have two GP38's coupled together on the front of whichever way the train was going. The MP15's, FA1's, FA2's, F7A's, or lone F9A were usually on the west end of the train (except some Oyster Bay trains or Greenport scoot trains which sometimes just MP15's)
No.
Two MP-15's couple back-to-back were both for power, none for HEP, becuase the 2900's had their own generators. Oyster Bay had no turning facilities and FRA prohibits cab-forward operation of them on the LIRR.
When the GP38 was at the opposite end, the MP15 was for HEP. The MP15 had a toggle switch for either HEP or traction. 169 was strictly for HEP.
169 was strictly for HEP.
Does this have anything to do with why some of the MP15's had "P" on their numbers. Like "P171", etc?
Yes, but all P units from 161 to 172 can convert to a standard locomotive with a flick of a switch. 172 blew its HEP back in 1993, so it became just a standard locomotive as it still is today being used as a work train locomotive. And yes, P stood for locomotive providing HEP.
Speaking of the "P" MP15's.....Anyone remember this?
Poor 171 hit a bit of a problem here. Luckily, 171 was cleaned up as good as new, and repainted into the yellow and blue paint scheme when it returned.
Doesn't ring a bell, where was this truck accident at?
This happened on a Monday morning in May 1992, I think a week before Memorial Day. It happened at the Orchard Road grade crossing in Bellport or East Patchogue. Apparently, a very heavy truck hauling new concrete cesspool parts got hung up at the Orchard Road grade crossing. Of course, right after he got stuck, 171 pulling the (what is currently the 7:28AM train from Speonk) was coming down the track after it's station stop at Bellport and hit the truck at Orchard Road. I don't think anyone was killed. I think the truck driver escaped when the gates were coming down, and I don't believe the engineer was severely hurt (but not sure).
Luckily the train did stop at Bellport, otherwise it would have been going much faster. MP15 #171 was pretty badly damaged, and did derail. After a few hours, the GP38-2 on the other end, #254, pulled the train (minus 171) back to Bellport and left it on the siding there. It took a while longer to rerail 171. Luckily, new locomotives were still years away, and thankfully 171 was brough back to life, repainted, and served passenger trains for a few more years in yellow and blue (I think it's still on the property, but I don't know if it's NYA's or the LIRR's.
Actually, it could have been the Tuesday after Memorial Day. I don't remember. ALl I know is that it was near Memorial Day, and it was the first day of the workweek.
Chris, 171 is still on LIRR property in hands of LIRR being used for work trains. At least it won't see that type of paint job that 167 got. Although, most MP15AC's still on LIRR hands will get it except engines such as 161, 166 and 171 which got repainted in 1992.
The MP15, aka SW1500, produces 1,500 hp. Indeed, on trains with the power pack and a GP38, the geep will do the pushing and pulling while the MP15 is along for the ride providing HEP.
The LIRR used converted Alco FAs as power packs also. The original prime mover and traction motors were removed and a Penske engine/generator set provided the HEP.
Can someone give me the best way to get to Parson Blvd and Jewel Ave in Queens. Would it be better that I drive there from Plainview or get on the train in Hicksville.
Drive.
I live in Nassau also, and I would drive as long parking were not a problem. If you take the LIRR, get off at Jamaica. Take the Q44 Bronx bound or Q20A/B College Point bound at the NE corner of Archer and Sutphin. Ask for a transfer or use a Metrocard. Get off at Jewel Ave. and Main St. Transfer to the Queens Surface Q65A eastward (towards 164th St.) to Parsons Blvd.
Depending on time schedules you could do the Q44/Q65A as previously suggested or :
1- LIRR to JAM---Take the E to Continental Ave and the get the 65A at its first stop.
2- LIRR to JAM---Q60 (Green Bus Lines) to Continental Ave. to Q65A
3- LIRR to Forest Hills. Walk one block north and cross over Queens Blvd to the Ridgewood Savings Bank and get the 65A as in #1 & #2
#3 BAD IDEA, Not worth crossing the "Blvd. Of Death" use #1 or #2 for your safety.
You've been offered several good answers.
One suggestion: try the Straphangers' site at www.straphangers.org - they have a pretty good interactive map. Put in the intersection and then zoom in and out of the map.
I thought there was a prohibition against asking for
directions on Subtalk? Oh well, since I live in the
neighborhood I'll make an exception.
Parsons & Jewel: home of the Joint Industries Council and
JIB Lanes bowling alley. Parking is OK, as NYC goes.
Reasonable amount of free on-street parking and a cheap
parking lot across the street. During the rush hours you'd be
better off taking the train, but otherwise it's a quick ride
on the Northern State/GCP or the LIE.
If you take the LIRR from Hicksville:
Take the train to Jamaica Station. Walk a few blocks from Sutphin/Archer to Parsons/Jamaica and take the Q35 or Q24 buses up Parsons Blvd.
Article is at:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/ny-lirr0301,0,1299507.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
Sounds like a good idea.
In the Chicago area, Metra monthly rail fares are quite competetive with the CTA.
CTA fares: $1.50 base, $.30 extra for transfer, $75.00 monthly pass.
Metra zone B (Oak Park): $2.05 single ride, $17.45 10 ride, $55.35 monthly pass.
Metra zone C (Evanston): $2.90 single ride, $24.65 10 ride, $78.30 monthly pass.
-- Ed Sachs
Why do commuter rail systems give such obscenely large monthly discounts compared to subway systems?
(Why do commuter rail systems give such obscenely large monthly discounts compared to subway systems?)
Interesting question. And it wasn't always this way.
For some reason I remember circa 1966 fares from New Rochelle:
1-way $1.01 (but almost no one used it)
10-trip, good peak and off peak, no real time limit (like today's $15 metrocard): $8.50.
Monthly: $33 (approx)
The 10-trip fare of $.85 was in essence the basic fare for all but the most casual customers. So the break-even point for monthly was that you had to use the railroad 20 round trips a month, which is a lot.
Much closer to today's metrocard fares than today' railroad fares.
Then about 1967, the Penn Central (or was it already the MTA?) slightly lowered the monthlies and massively increased the 1-ways, and made the 10-trips almost useless by putting a 1-week time limit on them.
The discounts are an old custom, dating back to the 19th century. Discounted tickets, such as 10-rides, weeklys, and monthlys, were called "commuted" fares (from the meaning of "commute" to exchange or discount, as in a "commuted prison sentence"). People who used these "commuted" fares came to be known as "commuters", hence the derivation of the word "commute" to mean to travel to and from work.
-- Ed Sachs
But that doesn't answer the puzzle of why suddenly in roughly 1967 Penn Central or the MTA suddenly decided to dramatically increase the level of discount for a monthly.
I think it's a real cool idea, as I travel off peak and could be home in 23 minutes as opposed to 45 minutes. MNRR vs D train. It would involve a little extra walking on each end, however.
If this happens remains to be seen, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds Good. Travel On Bart at all times Bewtween Embarcadaro and Daily City is the same fare as MUNI. and MUNI tickets/passes are excepted for travel at the same stations.
"I think it's a real cool idea, as I travel off peak and could be home in 23 minutes as opposed to 45 minutes. MNRR vs D train. It would involve a little extra walking on each end, however."
Except for New Year's eve, there is no MNRR service between 1:30 AM to 5:30 AM. Doesn't work if you want to get home at 3 AM.
Being on Jury Duty got me thinking... anyone ever see the new version of "Twelve Angry Men" with Tony Danza, James Gandolfini and Jack Lemmon? Danza's character had tickets to a Yankees game, which leads me to believe this version was set in NY. So, where in NY do you have the following: an el at such a height where if you looked out of your apartment window, you can see through the windows of a subway car and into an apartment where a sun supposedly killed his son? The only place I can think of is the Jamaica Ave. el, but even that's a bit high, I think.
Anyone ever see the original with Henry Fonda? Which city was that one set it (I thought it was Chicago, but maybe NY as well)? The original had the same situation.
I think it's a bit of artistic license on the part of the film maker. Then again when the original was made it probably was the 2nd or 3rd Ave El around the Criminal Courts building in Lower Manhattan.
I believe it is Manhattan, with the Els.
I think so also. But considering Hollywood the El in the background is probably just a prop.
It could been the Jerome Avenue Line (#4), Flushing El (7), West End (W), or 2-5 in the Bronx. Was it a Redbird? Then it was the 7. Growing up in Queens, I always knew that the second-floor windows of apartments along Roosevelt Avenue directly were facing the tracks at the same level.
Don't forget Chicago.
I think they would be closer to the 3rd floor, think of the #7 pulling out of Junction Blvd heading towards 90th st. You could see inside the buildings and see nothing but mattress's all over the floors!
I saw the original not too long ago on AMC. Most of it, anyway. Did you know it featured Mr. Green, Martin Balsam? Not to mention a young Jack Klugman.
I have not seen the remake - didn't even know they made one. The original was clearly meant to portray NY City. as for the el?? In the time that film was made - pick it. Myrtle, Jamaica, #7, RR, West End, and many more. All ran close to apartments - as suggested in the testimony. Bit of trivia:
Originally, Henry Fonda stood alone against the other 11 jurors. Ed Begley, E.G. Marshall and Lee J. Cobb were the last 3 hold-outs on the jury. What was the name of the actor who was the first to side with Henry Fonda?
Was it Sweeny? IIRC, The next juror (#9) was the first to agree, right? Damn I haven't seen the original since senior year H.S. (97).
Damn I haven't seen the original since senior year H.S. (97).
I can beat that, I haven't seen it since the late 80's in high school!
Absolutely - Joseph Sweeny...
I'm just guessing because I haven't seen it in a while but could it be Oscar Madi Jack Klugman? I know he eventually switched sides but not positive if he was the first.
Jack Klugman was the 2nd to change his vote after Sweeny. Jack Warden gave in because he had tickets to a Yankee game.
Question 1) Who were the Yankees to play against?
Question 2) Who was the actor that first voted guilty, then not guilty, then changed his vote twice more?
Question 3) What did the characters portrayed by Henry Fonda, Jack Warden, Ed Begley, E.G. Marshall and Lee J. Cobb all do for a living?
The Yankees were to play Cleveland as revealed by Sea Beach Fred in another part of this thread.
As far as the other 2 questions, I have not a clue.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, in the original, the Yankees were going to play Baltimore!
Sooo...I gather Sea Beach Fred was wrong.
Peace,
ABDEE
Actually, it was I who was in error. I should know better than to doubt Fred....
I was about to say. I would have remembered if it was Baltimore since I am an Orioles fan, but I know it was Cleveland.
You guys have given me an inspiration. This afternoon I will put in my tape of the "Twelve Angry Men" and enjoy a liesurely early evening treat. Thanks for the idea guys.
Cool, Fred, enjoy...I just watched it myself about 2 weeks ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
ESPECIALLY when it comes to baseball 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Since when is your name ABDEE! Like Abdee Salami? :)
That's just about enough out of you. 8-)
Peace,
ABDEE
Actually, the Yankees were playing Cleveland. Baltimore was the favorite team of Jack Klugman's character. Before Klugman was about to give his reasons for changing his vote, Jack Warden said "and now we hear from the Baltimore rooter".
Sorry to disagree with you my friend Dude, but in the 1957 movie it was Cleveland. I know because I used to be an Indians fan in the American League for over 40 years. CLEVELAND.
My condolences.
Q2...The advertising exec (can't remember his name) was the one who flip-flopped his vote.
Q3...Fonda was an architect. Warden played a salesman. Marshall was a stock broker. Cobb owned a messenger service. I'll pass on Ed Begley.
Great tangent Train Dude!!! This movie is one of my all-time favorites.
Q2...The advertising exec (can't remember his name) was the one who flip-flopped his vote.
The actor was Robert Webber (more well known for his role in "The Dirty Dozen".)
Q3...Fonda was an architect. Warden played a salesman. Marshall was a stock broker. Cobb owned a messenger service. I'll pass on Ed Begley.
Begly owned a string of Taxi Garages. Lee J. Cobb's messenger service was called "Beck & Call".
You're right about the Yankee game. Warden says rooting for Baltimore is like getting hit in the head once a day. My mistake.
1. Indians were the team being played against.
2. I am going to guess #6
3. Don't know
When I read the play in school, I was juror #4.
1. Yankees vs Cleveland
2. Robert Webber
3. Cobb was a businessman, Marshall was an accountant, I believe. I forgot about Fonda and I should know it. Warden was a salesman. Well, I get at least a B for this.
The original movie dates from about 1955 which is when the 3rd Ave. el stopped running. My guess is that the locale of the fictional murder would be on 3rd Ave. above 59th St. where the avenue was lined with five and six story commercial buildings.
BTW, the story locale of the jury room where the entire film was shot was no doubt supposed to be Lower Manhattan where the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els ran on the City Hall Branch.
If the movie was from 1955 then likely the timing in the movie would be a year or two before then. The scene of the murder probably would be alongside the 3rd (or maybe the 2nd) Ave El. The jury room doesn't have to be in the courthouse building. It could be a nearby building.
I'll have to see it the next time it pops up on AMC or TCM.
The film was originally released in 1957 (and was nominated for three or four Acadamy Awards (Oscars) in 1958). I think in those days, post-production didn't take nearly as long, so if it was released in 1957, it was probably filmed no earlier than 1956. Filming took only 19 days!! and it was Sidney Lumet's first directing job and Henry Fonda's first producer job. Not bad getting Best Director and Best Picture nominations for your first effort in a category ...
Late July or early August, 1956.
I heard that the original movie was shot in Ridgewood, Queens on Catalpa Ave.
Alright Bob, now you got my interest. Where on Catalpa?
Maybe the jury room was along the Myrtle Ave El. Interesting!
My favorite part is mundane and meteorological. The afternoon thunderstorm and the high humidity of summer in Manhattan.
Here are your characters, along with the order of acquittal:
Juror #1 (The Foreman): (Martin Balsam) A high-school assistant head coach, doggedly concerned to keep the proceedings formal and maintain authority; easily frustrated and sensitive when someone objects to his control; inadequate for the job as foreman, not a natural leader and over-shadowed by Juror # 8's natural leadership [9]
Juror #2: (John Fiedler) A wimpy, balding bank clerk/teller, easily persuaded, meek, hesitant, goes along with the majority, eagerly offers cough drops to other men during tense times of argument; better memory than # 4 about film title [5]
Juror #3: (Lee J. Cobb) Runs a messenger service (the "Beck and Call" Company), a bullying, rude and husky man, extremely opinionated and biased, completely intolerant, forceful and loud-mouthed, temperamental and vengeful; estrangement from his own teenaged son causes him to be hateful and hostile toward all young people (and the defendant); arrogant, quick-angered, quick-to-convict, and defiant until the very end [12]
Juror #4: (E. G. Marshall) Well-educated, smug and conceited, well-dressed stockbroker, presumably wealthy; studious, methodical, possesses an incredible recall and grasp of the facts of the case; common-sensical, dispassionate, cool-headed and rational, yet stuffy and prim; often displays a stern glare; treats the case like a puzzle to be deductively solved rather than as a case that may send the defendant to death; claims that he never sweats [10 - tie]
Juror #5: (Jack Klugman) Naive, insecure, frightened, reserved; has a slum-dwelling upbringing that the case resurrects in his mind; a guilty vote would distance him from his past; nicknamed "Baltimore" by Juror # 7 because of his support of the Orioles; he may be Hispanic but this is only speculation [3]
Juror #6: (Edward Binns) A typical "working man," dull-witted, experiences difficulty in making up his own mind, a follower; probably a manual laborer or painter; respectful of older juror and willing to back up his words with fists [6]
Juror #7: (Jack Warden) Clownish, impatient salesman (of marmalade the previous year), a flashy dresser, gum-chewing, obsessed baseball fan who wants to leave as soon as possible to attend evening game; throws wadded up paper balls at the fan; uses baseball metaphors and references throughout all his statements (he tells the foreman to "stay in there and pitch"); lacks complete human concern for the defendant and for the immigrant juror; extroverted; keeps up amusing banter and even impersonates James Cagney at one point; votes with the majority [7]
Juror #8: (Henry Fonda) An architect, instigates a thoughtful reconsideration of the case against the accused; symbolically clad in white; a liberal-minded, patient truth-and-justice seeker who uses soft-spoken, calm logical reasoning; balanced, decent, courageous, well-spoken and concerned; considered a do-gooder (who is just wasting others' time) by some of the prejudiced jurors; named Davis [1]
Juror #9: (Joseph Sweeney) Eldest man in group, white-haired, thin, retiring and resigned to death but has a resurgence of life during deliberations; soft-spoken but perceptive, fair-minded; named McCardle [2]
Juror #10: (Ed Begley) A garage owner, who simmers with anger, bitterness, racist bigotry; nasty, repellent, intolerant, reactionary and accusative; segregates the world into 'us' and 'them'; needs the support of others to reinforce his manic rants [10 - tie]
Juror #11: (George Voskovec) A watchmaker, speaks with a heavy accent, of German-European descent, a recent refugee and immigrant; expresses reverence and respect for American democracy, its system of justice, and the infallibility of the Law [4]
Juror #12: (Robert Webber) Well-dressed, smooth-talking business ad man with thick black glasses; doodles cereal box slogan and packaging ideas for "Rice Pops"; superficial, easily-swayed, and easy-going; vacillating, lacks deep convictions or belief system; uses advertising talk at one point: "run this idea up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes it" [8]
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I remember I was selected to a jury duty when I was only (19) which is five years ago. I was expected to joined the group of six women and six men included me to served the rape case. Eventually, I was the youngest of all 12 jurors, and oldest are 59. And one of the member was the guy (24) with numbers of tatoos all over are and nose ring.
The original "Twelve Angry Men" was made in 1957 and was supposed to be taking place in late summer 1956. It was set in New York, and Robert Warden, a wise cracking character, who, by the way, was my favorite in that movie, had tickets to the Yankee-Cleveland game that evening. He made fun of Jack Klugman who was an Orioles fan--at a time when Baltimore was a crappy team. I have it on tape and I watch it every so often. It was a good movie.
He made fun of Jack Klugman who was an Orioles fan--at a time when Baltimore was a crappy team.
Not much has changed since '56 eh? ;-)
Hey Piasan, you've hit that one out of the park. What goes around comes around. The situation is what it was back in 1956, but there was an era when Balltimore was a damn good team and the Yankees were in the pits. From 1966 until 1997 the Orioles were in the thick of most pennant races in the American League and won World Titles in 1966, 1970, and 1983, plus numerous league titles. The Yanks were in the hole from 1965-1975, and from 1982-1995. They had reversed places. Now it is back like the 50's. I suspect the Yankees will not have another downturn like before and the Orioles have one of the biggest assholes around as their owner. It might stay the way it is for a long time.
Eh, I know. Just your typical pro-Yankees anti-anyteam-playing-in-a-B-town comment that I had to make. Then again how can I hate Baltimore when Babe was born there. Boston, however, can go to hell :) What ever comes around bypasses Boston. Nineteen-eighteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!
Maybe they need a downturn, straighten Jeter out. The Boss is paying him, and he should just calm down a little on the partyin'. Not completely, but just enough to make the Boss happy. Wells should hsut his mouth.
Subway related: The 4 train still runs to Y.S. Ok, cheap attempt, but its related. :-P
The Red Sox are my favorite American League team and I am trying to get NE Sports Channel on my cable program. We will eventually come back and win the big one---when I don't know? I wasn't a Sox fan when they played my Mets in the '86 World Series and I wonder how I would react if they met in the next couple of years? It would really make me twist and turn. If the Red Sox get another pitcher we could go all the way this year.
Get the pizza pan - even Steingrabber's channel is available on it coast to coast ... only thing they've gotta black out is your local team(s) if you're in the wrong zip code.
Those of us who remember 1969 know what happened that year. First the Jets beat the Colts in Super Bowl III, then the Miracle Mets did in the mighty Orioles in the World Series.
the Orioles have one of the biggest assholes around as their owner.
Very true, Fred. Here is a list of players and personell who have left as a result of not wanting to be around Angelos:
Pat Gillick (GM)
Davey Johnson (manager)
Roberto Alomar
Rafael Palmerio
Jon Miller (play by play radio announcer, considered to be the best in baseball)
And that is just the beginning. I can't wait until he is gone. If you were wondering where Ripken is on that list, he did not retire because of Angelos, but the two had their disagreements.
Getting ready for another long, losing season for the Orioles. This after we lost all but 4 of our last 32 games.
Is Angelos worse than Steinbrenner?
I'd say Steinbrenner's worse. How many times has Angelos threatened to move the Orioles out of Baltimore?
At least your stars stay. Ours leave (and in Mike Mussina's case, go TO New York).
>>> The original "Twelve Angry Men" was made in 1957 <<<
Close, but no cigar. The original was a Studio One live television play in 1954 with Robert Cummings playing the juror who would not convict. It, like "Marty" (1953) and "Requiem for a Heavyweight" (1957) were later remade for the big screen.
New Yorkers can see the original at the Museum of Television and Radio in Manhattan.
Tom
I meant the original movie, not the play. I missed it on Studio One, one of the few I missed. I really like Studio One and Playhouse 90 which followed a year or so later. If we take the TV version, then the scene was the summer of 1953, the last one when I was riding the old Sea Beach Triplex BMT#4. I never rode the subway much in '54 before I moved. I can't remember why.
>>>> I never rode the subway much in '54 before I moved. I can't remember why. <<<
Maybe your parents purchased an automobile??? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> If we take the TV version, then the scene was the summer of 1953 <<<
Which is appropriate for looking through the el train, since there were many places on the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan where that would be possible.
Tom
*Which city was that one set it (I thought it was Chicago, but maybe NY as well)?*
Since the case took place in the "Manhattan Court of General Sessions" that pretty much rules out Chicago, dontcha think? *G*
Like I said, I hadn't seen the original in several years, so I'd forgotten, and was looking for the info.
So are the R110A (R130) and/or R110B (R131) being carried on the Revenue Active Roster or have they been retired?
I hear so many conflicting stories.
They have been reired.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
They have been retired.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
I highly doubt that we will ever is the 110 A/B in Revenue service again.The 110-B entered into service as an A-train.The 110-B was a odd car train. 3 sets of 3 cars. 1 set caught fire and the train was then used off peak hours on the C. After having problems with it they finally decided to pull the plug on it all together.
The 110-A was made up of 2 sets of 5 cars and was assigned to the 2-line. This train was the better of the two expect this one had brake problems which were fixed and continued to service.A year later rumor has it that a it caught fire and they pulled the plug on that on too
To answer your question -
The R-110A is now on the "Revenue Inactive" list.
The R-110B is still listed as "Revenue Active"
Thank you Steve.
Always like direct answers.
The R-110A is now on the "Revenue Inactive" list.
Wha dose that mean. Can they make it active again. Where is it being stored?
Historically, it's been done previously. R-9s were activated after being scrapped. R-10s and R-16s were also brought back to life. The R-110A, last I heard, was in storage at Pitkin Yard. It's not likely but entirely possible to revive them.
If it were my choice, I'd be using them on the Shuttle @ 42nd St.
True. i wouldny mind seeing them signed up for the #2 line again. Can anyone got to pitkin and take pictures? I only rode them 4 times.
AMI
Man, did I love the R110A. Foward facing window seats on the IRT is a novel idea which I thoroughly enjoyed. I used to "chase" that train from Flatbush to Wakefield.
It's a pity they didn't think of putting the 110Bs into service on the Franklin Shuttle as it's pretty much an isolated line since the rebuild. I presume the platforms couldn't handle the 201' lengths.
"If it were my choice, I'd be using them on the Shuttle @ 42nd St."
This would be outstanding! They already have automated anouncements, which is exactly what a shuttle train needs (just like airport trams). I don't know if they would keep the bucket seating though; you need more standing room. -Nick
To finally put this misconception to rest, I have dug up a New York Times article which clearly shows that the Queens streets were renumbered in the mid-1920s, not the mid-1910s as commonly believed here (this is another one of those wrong facts that I complained about recently).
According to an article on August 21, 1927, the numbering system had been put in "recently." 1916 may seem recent to 1927 compared to 2003, but a contemporary newspaper in 1927 would not consider 1916 recent.
So it stands at 1925. I was unable to find an article that pins down the date more precisely. That is for a later time.
Also, here's a rhyme by a man named E.P. Butler that was published in the Times on December 3, 1926:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
This would be a really cool thing if they still taught this to Queens schoolchildren.
The numbers weren't all changed overnight. From what I understand, the numbering system was BEGUN in 1915, but it wasn't completed for over a decade. By 1927, most of Queens would have been renumbered, but most likely not all. So, the whole renumbering process would indeed have been a "recent" phenomenon in 1927.
By the way, the renumbering is still not done. And I am not referring to Jamaica Estates, Forest Hills Gardens, or any other upscale area where whole neighborhoods are outside the grid; nor am I referring to Rockaway, where the addresses have dashes only on the E-W streets, but not on the N-S streets.
There is one very odd street, Walnut St, that runs E-W, and whose eastern end hits 71st Ave. at a right angle (while 71st Ave. is running N-S., at a point just north of where 71st Ave. hits Union Tpke.).
Addresses on either side of the street show a weird mix of old and new. I believe the houses on the south side of the street begin at 71st Ave. with house no. 98, 100, 102, etc. However, the houses on the north side are normal Queens addresses, with dashes. (I don't remember the actual numbers.) Then, halfway down the block going west, the pattern reverses! The old-style addresses are on the north side, and the reguar Queens addresses are on the south side! I find this street bizarre.
Ferdinand Cesarano
A visit to the NY Public Library, and a look at the 1922 Queens Hagstrom, will show you a Queens about midway through the change. Astoria hung tough for awhile, while Flushing STILL doggedly clings to its names, for which I'm grateful.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Interesting. Instead of Brooklyn, NY, we could have had:
Bay Ridge, NY
Borough Park, NY
Blythebourne, NY
Gravesend, NY
and a myriad of others. Any reason why Brooklyn didn't follow Queens in the towns standing independent rather than adhering to the Borough name? Also worthy of mention: It's KINGS County.
Staten Island is RICHMOND, but QUEENS is still QUEENS County.
Oy.
Because Brooklyn was the name of a city in KINGS county. It grew and absorved the other communities in KINGS county. City of Williamsburg(h). Towns of Bushwick, New Lotts, Gravesend and a few other locations I can't think of at this time of morning.
Queens County had Long Island City, Towns of Flushing, Jamaica, Rockaways and 3 other towns that became NASSAU County when western QUEENS County decided to join NYC.
That is a nifty rhyme:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
The only problem in it is that the word "street" is used twice close together, but in two different senses: first as the specific label; second as a general word which would encompass all of the labels.
I can't come up with a perfect rhyme that's better, but I think you need something along the lines of:
While even numbers shall be spied
On the west and southern sides
Then, we need a few more lines:
A boulevard is wide and grand
It carries two-way traffic and
Direction we can't take for granted
North or west; or even slanted
Ferdinand Cesarano
I must say that I am disappointed that no one has critiqued my attempt to add on to that Queens address rhyme by E. P. Butler, or has tried his/her own hand at it.
In hopes that the reason for this is that other SubTalkers overlooked my earlier post completely, thinking it to be a duplicate a post I had made a few hours earlier, I will re-submit, with a few modifications.
The original rhyme:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
I really like this rhyme, despite the minor flaw that the word "street" is used twice close together, but in two different senses: first as the specific label; second as a general word which would encompass all of the labels.
I think you ideally need an ending that doesn't re-introduce the word "street" as a general word, since we need that word as one particular label. Maybe something along the lines of:
While even numbers shall be spied
On the west or southern side
Then, we need a few more lines to account for that other major type of thoroughfare:
A boulevard is wide and grand;
It carries two-way traffic and
Direction we can't take for granted;
North or west or even slanted
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>> I must say that I am disappointed that no one has critiqued my attempt to add on to that Queens address rhyme by E. P. Butler <<<
It could be that others, like I saw the poem, appreciated the change you provided, and had nothing further to add to it. Look at it as "No news is good news." However, if your ego requires it:
BRAVO!!! An inspired change. It should be included in any new anthology of Queens poetry!
Tom
...if your ego requires it: BRAVO!!! An inspired change. It should be included in any new anthology of Queens poetry!
Thanks, Tom! (You know that we sensitive, creative types need our recognition.)
Actually, I was really hoping to generate a round of verse-writing on the topic of Queens streets. I have this sonnet about Junction Blvd. that will knock your socks off...
Ferdinand Cesarano
["This would be a really cool thing if they still taught this to Queens schoolchildren"]
Or cabbies!!!
ROTFLMAO,
Peace,
ANDEE
Cute rhyme, but it doesn't address the myriad miscellaneous street titles, such as Crescent (there are many of them in Forest Hills/Rego Park), Circle and Parkway (like Marathon or Little Neck Parkways, neither of which are "parkways" but regular roadways).
Maybe at the time the "parkways" were that considering there weren'y too many roads in that section of Queens.
Than why does this 1924 map contain only numbers for the Jamaica Ave BMT? The Liberty Ave BMT also appears to have numbers alongside names. No Jamaica Ave. station ever sported their numbered street's name (121 St. was never called Spruce St). The same map does show only names for the now numbered stations on the Astoria and Flushing lines, though. Perhaps certain sections of Queens were numbered at different times.
There is a plaque on a pole in front of a house on Park Lane South in Woodhaven (I just saw it this past weekend) which clearly states that the house was the first to be renumbered according to the new scheme in 1917. I could find the exact address, if you're interested. The irony of this is that Park Lane South should really be Park Avenue (or Road or Drive) since it runs east and west at that point.
There is a plaque on a pole in front of a house on Park Lane South in Woodhaven (I just saw it this past weekend) which clearly states that the house was the first to be renumbered according to the new scheme in 1917. I could find the exact address, if you're interested.
I forgot about that, even though it's only 2 blocks from where I live. The year is 1913, not 1917 IIRC. It's obvious street numbers in Woodhaven were instituted in the 1910's, not 1920's.
The irony of this is that Park Lane South should really be Park Avenue (or Road or Drive) since it runs east and west at that point
It does run the length of the park along it's southern edge. The street turns into Park Lane when it turns and runs along it's eastern edge.
I'm old enough to remember when the street signs in Queens had BOTH the new numbers AND the old names on them. My street (114 St) was previously named "Stoothoff Avenue".
>>>I'm old enough to remember when the street signs in Queens had BOTH the new numbers AND the old names on them.<<<
Green and whites installed in Sunnyside Gardens do have both names. I guess the community board asked for it....to be chronicled in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
...where you will find the Street Necrology of Astoria
In going through the microfilm of the Brooklyn Eagle from 1916, I found a series of maps showing how Queens and Brooklyn would be zoned. This is not New York City zoning as we now know it (building height, etc.), but rather streets where commercial, residential, or business development would be allowed. It showed the streets with both numbered and (for want of a better term) nouned names. In many cases, there were things included that never came to be (a wider Baisley Pond Park for one) or streets that no longer exist (some oddly-angled roads in the Queens Village/Cambria Heights street grid), but they had at least begun to deal with the numbered street concept.
This actually restarted the process. At one point, some streets in Western Queens had different numbers that they now have (31st Street was 2nd Street, as an example).
I was just wondering, how would the BSS and the Locust St subway interchange?
I know the Locust St subway was originally an extention of the Broad St Subway running along Locust St and built to serve the communities down Locust St west of Rittenhouse Sq, as well as west of the Schuykill river, an area currently only served by rather heavy bus service, as well as the Subway Surface 11, 13 and 36 trolley lines. Budget problems lead to the subway only running between 8th and locust and 17th and locust, and being completely unconnected to any lines, left to site for some fourty years. Of course finally in 1969 PATCO finally joined the Bridge St line on 8th to the abandoned Locust st subway and built the stations at 9th, 12th, and 15th.
But I'm wondering, how the heck were the BSS and LSS supposed to interchange? The LSS drops WAY below the BSS, it would seem to make any connection between the two require a helix down from the BSS. Somehow would the tail tracks at Walnut Locust drop down to the LSS, creating a flying junction between the two?
Also, was it PATCO, or whatever group that built the LSS originally (PTC, SEPTA, City of Philadephia) that built the subway stations? Both 15th, 12th, and 9th seem to have something different in common compared to the other subway stations on PATCO, in fact they look like the south philly BSS stops. Could it be that the Bridge Line Stations and Locust St Stations were quite different, and that PATCO, back in 1969 modified them mostly to their liking? Thus accounting for any differences between the two.
The interchange was via the Ridge Ave subway. Before PATCO Ridge and Brigde trains could either terminate at the upper level of 8th and Market or 15/16th and Locust.
(Of course Mike meant the lower level.)
When you ride PATCO eastbound out of 8th & Market, there used to be a switch where the line now curves to the right approaching the (closed) Franklin Square station. The tracks to Ridge Ave have been removed and a fence has been erected. This is easily seen through the railfan window from the first or second seat.
At various times bridge trains terminated (as Mike stated) at 8th & Market or 16th & Locust; sometimes the train continued (in the opposite direction) to Girard Ave on the Ridge Ave spur.
The bridge and Ridge lines were separated upon the advent of PATCO.
Wow, that seems a bit odd to me. Kinda counter-intuitive, if you want to ride whatever the LSS would become west of the schuykill, you have to first travel east on the Ridge Ave Spur (assuming that you start at say, Olney or Fern Rock and want a one-seat ride, if you start in center city, may as well just ride either the BSS or MFL to one of the interchanges, plus it wouldn't be the Ridge Ave Spur, would it?). I could see Walnut Locust being overwhelmed at times with people who work on the western half of Market St (between 20th and 16th) flooding off the LSS and onto the BSS cause they're in too much of a hurry to ride the LSS/Ridge Ave Subway all the way up to the MFL interchange at 8th and Market, and too lazy to walk from Locust up to Market, so three interchanges actually sound good to them (but it'd have to be Subway Surface, not MFL).
Was anything else planned for the Express tracks? Were they just to end at Walnut Locust, I suppose that South Philly Express service was planned, but canceled due to budgetary reasons. Would it have been a double decker subway, similar to the Lex between 59th and 125th(?)? Would they have completely redone the Subway, ripping out the island platforms in the name of 4 track express running, or would it have been a chicago-style express, with the expresses on the outside, locals on the island platforms in the middle?
Just south of the Walnut station the tracks jog to the east. The south Philly portion of the BSS was built to serve as one half of a 4 track express route if such a route was ever needed. The other two tracks would have been added to the west of the two existing tracks giving the option to re-do all the stations or run the other line as express only with no accross the platform transfering.
If you think about it, you wouldn't need to rip out the island platforms entirely, just at non-express stations cut back the portion of the island serving the now express track and build a wall. On the other side side wall platforms could be built as normal.
Even further back, LSS was to be part of center city distrubution system. Arch st. (two unfinnisher stations WW1 - Juniper st and tenth st) 8st and Locust st. Two tracks from North BSS turning each direction on Arch St. Plans latter changer to ridge ave spur, 8st and Locust Sts
I have responded to a few posts on strappies about the R110 fleet, some poeple disagreed with me, so i will ask it here
Does anybody know the fate of the cars??
When will it be decided?
What happened to the plans to rebuild them?
"There's no fate but what we make." -- Kyle Reese
I guess any plans to rebuild them were scrapped with the arrival of the 142/143. But I know of no other plans.
Why don't they rebuild them. The R-11 was delivered as a prototype for the Second Avenue Subway. They were used in service for a considerable amount of time. They were even rebuilt as contract R-34, and used for even longer. Why not do the same with the R110 A and B?
They were prototypes for The R142/143 fleet, but now the that fleet has arrived, I guess there is no need to rebuild them, although I did like the R110B very much so. Another reason they probably won't bring the R110 Fleet back is because the 110A has transverse seating and caused less standing space and during rush hour on the IRT is a no no, you need all the space that is a available, and the 110B was 67' long, and that's over the IND standards, on the A Line it was 603' when the Max. length of a trainset is supposed to be 600' and on the C Line it was shorter than the standard 480', it was a 402' trainset.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
What? The R110B was built as three three-car sets. 9x67 is 603', no matter how you slice it. 8x75 is 600', as is 10x60. There is more than enough 'slop' in the platform and signaling to allow the additional 3' of train, all of it beyond the end doors and not a danger to passengers.
And people wonder why I rarely post...
-Hank
Hank.
Why are you wasting your time, you know he always speaks from his ass.
IMO.
After all he said both have been retired.
Peace,
ANDEE
(sigh)
The R32/38/40/42 are 60'6", so 10x60'6" is 605' which makes it shorter than the 9x67 110 anyway.
Last time I checked, every train can hold people. I saw a 4 car train on the Red Line heading towards Grosvenor or Shady Grove this evening on Metro's busiest line which is susposed to only have 6 car trains. I am sure all the people packed onto that 4 car train were grateful that it showed up, despite being crowded in. I couldn't see how crowded it was but I can assume that upon leaving DuPont Circle, it was probably at or near crush loading. I am sure that even if it ran on the IRT during rush hours, people wouldn't mind seeing it. It is a train after all.
The primary reason to keep the train out of service is training and maintenance. You have to train crews to operate on those trains and they don't use all the same parts other trains do. Those are the primary reasons, from what I understand, that the trains are not in service.
As of December 2002, the R-110A's were no longer on the roster of active cars. The 110B's were on the roster.
Does anybody know when the Subway Roadeo is and where? If I can, I'd like to see what it is all about.
#4489 N Sea Beach Local
The Rodeo if I remember correctly is usually held on the first Saturday of April every year and is always held at Coney Island Yard.
It could be the third Saturday of April,I forgot,it's either the first or third Saturday of that month.
If anybody knows a specific date, please post it here on the Upcoming Events Board so that we all know when it is and hopefully we can have a huge SubTalk gathering there. Thanks!
#2830 Q Brighton Beach Local
The only way I could there is if my older brother goes this year and invites me as well.
The subway RODEO is only open to employees of the the TA and their families.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know that,that's why I was at the last rodeo.I'm the younger brother of one of the TA worker's.
My Mom is a Bus Operator, What do they do at the Rodeo anyway?? I never been to a Subway Rodeo.
last one i was at, they had lots of food, train rides and lots of events for the kids. for the grownups, if they knew anyone from RTO, they get to watch the competition.
according to a motorman i know it went like this
FIRST THING
UNIFORM INSPECTION U HAVE TO PASS HAVE ALL TOOLS READY
2ND THING
WRITTEN EXAM
3RD THING
TRANSIT TRIVIA BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF SYSTEM
4TH THING
CONE EVENT. HOW CLOSE U CAN GET TO THE CONE WITHOUT HITTING IT AND I BELIEVE U CAN ONLY HIT THE BRAKES ONCE. NO FANNING! AKA THE SPEED DISTANCE EXAM ITS CALLED
5TH THING IS, U GO AROUND THE YARD WITH SUPERVISION AND U HAVE TO POINT OUT WHATS SAFE, WHATS WRONG, WHATS A DEFECT. ONE EXAMPLE IS, I SAW A RED SIGNAL WIT THE TRIP ARM DOWN
What employees (volanters)of the Transit Museum don't count?
WestFest was an employees only thing in 1998. I was able to get in because of my association with the Museum. Now I posess an EPIC pass, that makes me extra special....
-Stef
I suppose I could go but I'm not really interested.
Peace,
ANDEE
We went back in April '01 and got in without too much resistance. The guard just couldn't turn down a young child. Of course, that was in a much more innocent era. Now security would likely be much tighter. We were away for the '02 rodeo, so it's unknown as to whether we would've been able to get in.
Wonder if telling them I know Mark W would get me in the Roadeo? Or would it get me in jail instead?
While the Rodeo events are in CIY this year, everyone is to show up elsewhere first, so don't go to the Yard.
Probably jail...8-)
JUST A JOKE, MARK. So don't get all bent out of shape.
Peace,
ANDEE
ROTFLMFAO
8-) Sparky
Thank you for not telling him he will be taken to the roadeo by three men in white suits strapped to an orange vest.
With or without patented antireflector shields? :)
Howard, maybe you should tell them you know Dennis Riga...that should get SOME kind of result...LOL!
NOT TRUE, I WENT 2 YEARS AGO said i was invited by my uncle and he wasnt there to accompany me. i bet this year i will get in on my MTA metro North ID. u would be suprised how much u can get away with when u have a MTA badge
Enjoy!
02 R-32
02 R-38 (Page 2)
01 R-40 (Page 7)
07 R-44 (Page 2)
10 R-68 (Page 9+)
05 34 St/6 Av IND
01 34 St/6 Av BMT
02 59 St - Columbus Circle
01 96 St (B/C)
Total: 31 Photos
Take Pride,
Brian
Why do you have pics of R-44's and R-46's on Railfanwindow.com?
Because it beats taking photos of brick walls.
They have arrived at East 180th St.
-Stef
Goodie-more crap to deal with.
#8888 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
>>>by Stef on Tue Mar 4 00:02:50 2003.
Goodie-more crap to deal with. <<<
Call it crap, if you wish, but the FACT is you are going to have to deal with it for the next 40 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I guess I will have to like it or not-Yuck-time to get an interest in the B Division cars-especially the R32 R40 and R40M.
#3469 E Queens Blvd Express
#4489 N Sea Beach Local
#4398 Q Brighton Beach Express
>>>
Goodie-more crap to deal with. <<<
Call it crap, if you wish, but the FACT is you are going to have to deal with it for the next 40 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
what are the top 20 subtalk topics?
id say
1- The Manhattan Bridge Service patterns
2- The Second Avenue Subway
3- Why the CPW express is not an express, just a skip-stop saving you no time
4- The Airtrain
5- Bringing the lirr to JKF via the Rockaway Beach ROW
6- Bashing the "Rathole", brooklyn you know what I mean
7- Bashing Freds line
8- Proposing freds line be a total Local via tunnel to the bronx...lol
9- Saying the brighton is the best
10-Tell brookfield to use the 2 3 4 5 M N R from Atlanti-Pacific, its about 6 billion cheaper, it only costs $1.50
How about?:The Nimbys of Sea CliffKosher Hot Dogs at Newark Penn StationJoe BrunoRobert MosesDeep fried Hostess TwinkiesSkee Ball76th StreetSuit covered anusesThe gender of V Train B47 Bus
Darwin Awards
Looking at both of your lists, this thread might be a classic!
You both forgot the incessant threads about the Redbirds. When they all go? When will they go? When will they go?
And also 'fantasy lines', where we happily go off and spend $100 billion or more ripping apart and reconstructing the system into what it really should be.
And, I forgot to add, badmouthing Mayor Hylan. This is not so much an exclusive thread topic as it is a universal motif underlying just about every posting.
Or "WHEN IS THE TRANSIT MUSEUM GOING TO OPEN?"
SHHH....That's a secret. 8-)
peace,
ANDEE
I believe I was the one who started the 76th Street Station Post, the thread was long as hell!! So the 76th Street is definately a classic. Here's the my thread!, and here's another thread started by abother SubTalker.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling INc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling Here!
no !it was ...............
"" kosher dogs at penn station in newark ""
...........lol
How about the inevitable threads about a the exploits at Branford? I'm not complaining, I love to hear about that stuff, but between the planning, debates, announcements, general hype before the big day, and, of course, the follow up reports, that place must occupy a significant percentage of the messages on this boad.
I for one would enjoy hearing more from museums at:
- Kingston
- Coney Island (about both RPC & Museum fleet progress)
- Bob Diamond's PCC
- Seashore
- Baltimore
- IRM
(Branford just happens to be the place where many of us SubTalkers go to get dirty on the week-ends)
And I regularly read, rapid transit related, posts from:
- Washington D.C.
- Atlanta
- Boston
- Philly
- Chicago
- London
You're forgetting the infamous Train Dude/Heypaul feuds of nearly three years ago (those posts would be remembered by only true SubTalk 'veterans') :)
>>>...the infamous Train Dude/Heypaul feud...<<<
Who the hell are they...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How can you forget 76th Street????
Quite easily, seeing as there's nothing there to remember ;-)
Subway scenes in movies- especially PELHAM 123.
Slants are faster than hippos.
The dulcet tones of the R/1-9 motor and pinion gears.
How much faster express runs used to be till these darn timers.
Incorrect R142/A automated announcments.
"If I could build lines and had unlimited amounts of money-"
Remember Nedicks/automats/Robert Hall/any defunct NYC institution?
Manhattan Bridge after 2004.
Why can't they restore the F express in Brooklyn?
Chambers Street station is DISGUSTING!!
Fastest express run.
Fastest river tube.
Nicest/ugliest station rehab.
Can you take photographs in the subway or not?
Don't forget Food Talk.:)
Then there's the ever-popular Bob and Fred Show. Guaranteed to leave you in stitches when it's on the air.
And how about classic posts:
The slant Q train that got up to 54 mph on the Brighton express.
The two A train conductors going at it all the way down 8th Ave. with one train on the express track while the other was on the local track.
And my personal favorite - Wayne's Ride From Hell on that broiling, crush-loaded prewar F train on 9/11/73.
Most classic and outstanding post has to go to 76th Street. Bashing SeaBeachFred is another. I would say I myself was bashed once on SubTalk. I panicked over nothing if you recall that virus thing( still sorry about it). Any post on the 2 Ave subway goes for some distance. My Jamaica Q&A post lasted about a week or week and a half. And I started at least 1 or 2 Transit Trivia posts. I usually enjoy it when someone else hit's us with trivia. My questions are too easy. Manhattan Bridge is another hot subject. V and Dubya trains, our redbirds, and the bucket of bolts that we call R142 and R142A. But I have to give thanks to Selkirk and SeaBeachFred. I was born 1977 and was a BMT baby. Proud of the Brighton, Sea Beach, Culver, and West End lines. Hey, I was born in Coney Island and had access to all these lines. Now, I'm an IRT adult along the ranks of the Lexington Ave Lines.
I was on two 2 trains today, one with cars borrowed from the 5. Both had updated strip maps. They seem mostly correct, but Park Place still shows a connection to PATH and the M south of Chambers is in a diamond.
I thought I was imagining that. It looks like a stick on over the portion of the map that needed updating.
-Stef
It is a sticker. They could have actually replaced the maps but I guess pasting a sticker over much of it was a cheaper alternative. I've yet to see R142s with these updated maps.
Yeah I noticed that too on the 2 train I was on today.It had all the current connection's at each station.Finally!I thought they'd never update those strip maps.
Well, I don't see why leaving PATH off is strange. It will come back.
Is it omitted in the updated announcements? I figure it won't be.
Was this station rebuilt as new during the Archer Avenue subway construction? Or was it kept the way it was since 1918?
Give me some answers please.
I think the station was rebuilt when TA rebuilt stations arond the line from 121 back to Crypress Hills. I thinm that was the early to mid 1980's.
121st Street was never rebuilt. What you see was alwways there since the el was built. Originally, what is the J line ended at Cypress Hills (an old station before the curve on Jamaica. Cypress hills station was actuually over Crescent Street not Jamaica Avenue. About 1918 or so, the line was extended from Cypress Hills to 168th Street. On September 11th, 1977 the Jamaica El was cut back to Queens Blvd, and QB became the terminal. In I think 1985 or so, the Jamaica El was cut back further to begin connecting the Archer extension, so Queens Blvd and Metropolitan Ave were abandoned, and 121st street, which used to be just a stop in the middle of the line became the terminal, until late 1988 when it was extended to Jamaica Center. So our current 121st street is the original 1918 station.
Interestingly, 111th Street ided to be used as a terminal station also when the Lexington El use to be in service, they usewd to short turn Lexington El trains at 111th Street (of course there still was quite a ways to go on the el back then).
On the J line from Cypress Hills to 121 St the stations were rebuilt. Mezzazines were rebuilt in some places and others were totally removed. That was the early to mid 1980's. Before then Alabama thru Crescent stations were also rebuilt. The old wooden platforms were replaced with cement. There was also a GO that went on for months were trains didn't stop at the stations and shuttle buses went from B'way-Junction to Cresent St for bypassed stations.
Rebuilt is too strong a word for what happened to Jamaica Ave. el stations. I'd use the term "heavily rehabbed". 102nd, Forest Parkway and Elderts Lane each had entire mezzanines physically removed. Other than that, the repairs were cosmetic.
I'm afraid the stations look much like they always did, and were not really rebuilt. Yes, they got some windscreens, and new lighting and railings, but the basic structure is the stations that was always there. Even the concrete flooring is original in most of the stations. When I think of rebuilt, it means what they did on Broadway before the current 1918 stations were built. The original 1888 stations were removed, and replaced with the 19-teens stations (and structure) that are there now.
i realy dont like it when people say things in such a ''know it all,as a matter of fact'' type way...all the stations from Eny to 121 street have been reconditioned[rebuilt]from its former appearance,along with track,bents,signals,lighting and a few other things...and even stations between ENY to Marcy recently received the same treatment.The East NY station,at this moment,is being ''rebuilt''.come out a take a visit sometimes.....
i realy dont like it when people say things in such a ''know it all,as a matter of fact'' type way..
First of all, it was not meant in any way to be "know it all" as you seem to have taken offense to, because it surely wasn't meant to be. If anything, I should take offense to the way you replied to my post. The problem here is not an issue of if you think I came off arrogant, it is more an issue of what we each define as "rebuilt". The truth is the stations on the Jamaica line ARE the original structures, meaning they are not rebuilt, at least how I would define it. Your last statement (at this moment,isbeing ''rebuilt''.come out a take a visit sometimes..... ) couldn't be farther from the truth, as I do know exactly what those stations look like, and still say they are not rebuilt, heavily rehabbed maybe, but rebuilt no.
Actually, just to add, I find the stations above Fulton Street on the J to be more on the lines of what I would call "rebuilt". I guess it's how all of us define rebuilt, or define rehabbed. I don't know, but when I see old photos of any of the stations on Jamaica Avenue, they look basically just like they do now, they are the exact same structure, so that's why I said they were not rebuilt, even the concrete is 19teens on many of them. (you sure can't say the same about the Fulton street J line stations which are almost unrecognizable).
Look, it has been some 16 years since I rode the Jamaica El. and even with pictures those stations still look about the same as I remember. but,this might be a middle of the road way to resolve the term rehab or rebuilt, we can all agree that the structure is the same but there may have been ajustments and udates to the original structure and stations. do you feel this would be reasonable
john
Here's a general list of what was done to the Jamaica Ave el stations from 1987-89:
- Stairs replaced
- Mezzanines rehabilitated, some with tile floors. All received flourescent lighting.
- Sodium lamps replace incandescent fixtures at each uncovered end
- Flourescent lighting installed the length of canopies, replacing individual incandescent fixtures
- Each exiting stairway rebuilt, including new canopies over them. This is where the most extensive rehabilitating was done.
- 3 stations (Elderts Lane, Forest Parkway & 102nd St) had their part time mezzanines completely removed. This is why these 3 stations now sport additional numbers in their titles.
The vast majority of the concrete and steel on these stations was untouched. It was a heavy rehab, not rebuild.
we can all agree that the structure is the same but there may have been ajustments and udates to the original structure and stations. do you feel this would be reasonable
Yup, that we can all agree on. The disagreement seems to have arisen out of just a simple miscommunication about what is "rehabbed" or what is "rebuilt".
I'm sorry, but I stand by my original assumptions and post:
This (as well as any station on Jamaica Ave) is the same unrebuilt (although rehabbed) station
as this:
Chris, Is your second picture Cypress Hills? That looks a lot like New York's best high school in the background!
Thank you for the answers, guys.
I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?
"I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?"
Here we go again....
Uh, well, if you really want to know, safe is as safe does.
1. Step onboard train.
2. Sit down. Or
3. Stand up.
4. Look out window. Or
5. Look at ads. Or
6. Read. Or
7. Look at people. Or
8. Close eyes; fall asleep.
All that is safe. You can do it. It's safe. However, if at any point you emote loudly to the car how their respective mothers behave in private......, then
It is not safe.
I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?
Yes, by all means ride it, it is perfectly safe, especially between Sutphin and BJ. And even though the line runs through a run down neighborhood from Broadway Junction to the Williamsburg Bridge, it's safe there too.
oh boy ...here we go again....so your saying the neighboorhood I grew up in ... is run down? Your cruzin'....
Oh boy. Well, if it makes you feel better, my grandparents started their lives along Broadway also, and my grandfather worked very hard in that neighborhood as an "iceman" and kerosene hauler of all things...so I do have roots there, even if I hadn't ever lived in that particular part of Brooklyn. Very early on they had moved to Bushwick, and later Ridgewood, but my granfather still worked as an "iceman" in Bedford-Stuyvesant and Bushwick until the refrigerators and central heating units were installed. But yes, unfortunately, although better than years ago, unfortunately it is a bit run down along Broadway.....
"I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?"
Here we go again....
Uh, well, if you really want to know, safe is as safe does.
1. Step onboard train.
2. Sit down. Or
3. Stand up.
4. Look out window. Or
5. Look at ads. Or
6. Read. Or
7. Look at people. Or
8. Close eyes; fall asleep.
All that is safe. You can do it. It's safe. However, if at any point you emote loudly to the car how their respective mothers behave in private......, then
It is not safe.
Yep, that's Franklin K. Lane HS!
Yup, that's Cypress Hills and yes that's good ole F. K. Lane in the backround.
Actually, in this case they were not my photos, but photos right from this site.
I still have fond memories of my alma mater of fifty years ago!
From what I remember, the major change at 121st Street and the other Queens stations came in the mid to late 60s, when Q-panels (the corregated wall panels) and new signage, replacing the old BMT signage, was installed at stations like 121st Street. The major rehab work, which took place at stations like Woodhaven Boulevard, came in the mid-80s, which basically replaced the wall panels and installed new lighting.
- The Jamaica Ave el stations retained the old white on blue BMT signage into the late 1970's at many locations.
- The windscreen panels were not replaced during the late 80's rehabs.
BTW, does anyone know when the Jamaica Ave. el canopies had their asbestos tile rooves removed, being replaced with the current sheet-metal? It had to date before I was born (early 1970's). Oddly, the Broadway elevated station canopies didn't have them removed until a few years ago.
The windscreen panels had artwoek attached (or cut into them, such as what was done at Woodhaven Boulevard) at various points, plus I beleive that some of them were replaced.
Yes, each station did receive some sort of artwork.
And those pieces of art have garbage in them 8-(
Considering the effort involved with stuffing garbage into them, it's as much an act of vandalism as graffiti and scratchiti, and even harder to clean.
The Fulton St. J train stations are total rebuilds. I remember the time they were being rebuilt, and the entire existing structures, except underlying steelwork and canopy supports, were razed.
Exactly, and that's why I said 121st Street was "not" rebuilt, because I was thinking the original poster had that kind of construction in mind when he asked the question about 121st Street.
Alabama to Crescent is what I consider rebuilt stations, as this is a photo of them unrebuilt. What went on here is beyond "rehab"
I would add Marcy Avenue to the list of J line stations that is "rebuilt", however it's neighbors at Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, (and the rest of Broadway) are NOT rebuilt...(yes edwards, I know what they currently look like), and even though they even have new concrete (which is more than Jamaica Ave stations got), I still say they are "rehabbed" as opposed to "rebuilt"....the original structure is intact.
Heh. Notice the piles of wood on the platforms. Fire, weather and vandalism must've keep the TA busy keeping those wooden platforms intact.
Hehe, yeah, those piles of wood made me laugh too when I first looked at that photo. Forget about dragging wood there, just keep the wood handy as it must have been a never ending job keeping those platforms intact near the end!
Do you know why Marcy Ave was not rebuilt during the dual contracts?
I asked that question about a year ago, and got a fairly good answer. Before the Broadway El was rebuilt under the dual contracts, most of the stations from Cypress Hills to Hewes Street were island platform stations (like in the photo of Alabama posted above) with two tracks. Marcy Avenue was always an island platform for some reason. When the Broadway el was rebuilt, they rebuilt the whole structure to four tracks, and all the stations were rebuilt to side platforms. I guess since Marcy was already a side platform station, they just left it be. Marcy originally had a layup track I believe on the original 1888 Broadway El, so it was not necessary to rebuild Marcy when they rebuilt the rest of the el and stations in the 1910's rebuilding. Of course that left marcy with it's original wood platforms, while all the other stations (except the Fulton Street section) got the dual contract concrete stations, with mezzanines, that are there today. Marcy was rebuilt to what is there now I believe in the early 80's or so.
Interestingly, in addition, that center track at Marcy (which was the layup track on the original 1888 el) originally became part of the express run after the rest of the line was triple tracked. The express tracks only merged with the local tracks after passing Marcy on the way to the WillyB, and Marcy was a local station . I don't know when they put the interlocking on the east side of Marcy.
Ahhh, Sorry dumb typo
This
Marcy Avenue was always an island platform for some reason.
Should say "Marcy Avenue was always an wall platform station", not "island" - sorry.
The switches were moved and Marcy Ave became an express stop sometime around 1960!
Wow, I didn;t knwo that. By the way in my post, I just noticed another typo. Obviously I didn't mean the Braodway el was rebuilt to four tracks, and meant three tracks.
Before 1960 Jamaica really did have an express. In those days the express ran from Eastern Parkway to Essex St with only one stop, Myrtle Ave. It was a great ride!
What always amazes me is that the line over Jamaica Ave was built with all local stations, even though provision was left for a center track. Now that would have been some express! 168th Street to Eastern Parkway without a stop! I wonder what they were thinking.
I also wonder what they had planned for the Alabama to Cypress Hill section. Obviously they had something different planned when they were rebuilding the Broadway el, and building the Jamaica Avenue section, because they didn't do anything about making the Fulton street section dual contracts, like they did over Broadway.
I don't think there was any thoughts of extending the line any further when Alabama Ave to Cypress Hills was built.
One might think that Dual Contracts was considering an express track above the stations, based on the steelwork to the west of Alabama Ave.
I wish that I had been around when the Cypress Hills station was the last stop and was located on Crescent St. I would have loved to have seen the center platform station, and the incline down to Jamaica Ave in operation.
There was a proposal in 1917 to build a Williamsburg Bridge Plaza station. This station design was to be similar to the current Myrtle Ave and Eastern parkway stations. If this was built, it would replace Marcy Ave, and Marcy would have been razed. As a result there would have been no reason to rebuild a station that was to be torn down, and it was bypassed in the dual contracts rebuild program.
That would explain why it looked like a Fulton St. el station on Pitkin Ave. before 1979. I wonder why this station was retained in it's condition, so close to the newer Hewes St.
I'm still wondering why they converted it from a local to an express stop!
I always assumed that this was done so that people who accidentally took a Manhattan bound express but wanted a local stop wouldn't have had to go all the way to Essex St to backtrack. But there is no free crossover at Marcy Ave! Maybe patronage was much higher than Hewes or Lorimer which justified the change.
Or maybe because of the bus terminal there?
Say, that looks like the Museum Train to me. All the cars are sporting fresh paint, and 1802 on the end is sporting an R-32 KK roll sign. The new route curtains installed on the R-7/9s on the Eastern Division did not include subscripts.
I Dunno, could be. Maybe this will help someone determine it if they recognize the date (just before my time) - Here's what the caption under the photo says:
R7 1465 @ Alabama Avenue (BMT Jamaica). (KK) Photo by Doug Grotjahn, 10/9/1970. Collection of Joe Testagrose. (110k)
Dunno, could be. Maybe this will help someone determine it if they recognize the date (just before my time) - Here's what the caption under the photo says:
R7 1465 @ Alabama Avenue (BMT Jamaica). (KK) Photo by Doug Grotjahn, 10/9/1970. Collection of Joe Testagrose. (110k)
Ignore that above post, I posted this under the wrong post!
The Jamaica Ave. el stations were rehabbed at the same time Archer Ave opened. The further the station was to the east, the earlier it was completed. Some stations like 121st and 111th were done before service to Jamaica Center commenced.
It has been there since 1918. The el was first cut back from 168th Street to Queens Boulevard. It was then cut back to 121st Street before the opening of the Archer Avenue Subway.
The current station has received the same modifications that other el stations have received in the last 25 years or so - windscreens replacing open fencing, improved lighting, new signage. 121st St. received no additional rebuild when the Archer subway opened; the new trackage into the tunnel begins just east (north) of the station, which was not impacted or moved because of the new subway.
It is as it was. The scissor crossover east of the station was installed in 1987, though.
If that was the case, then how did J trains reverse direction? Was there a different crossover after 121 St? (I still miss that green structure that went to Sutphin; I'm probably not old enough to even remember the el all the way to 168.)
From 111 St. they would cross to the middle track. Just before the current bumper block the TA did a temporary track modification. The middle track curved over to the Manhattan bound track, called a "hard rail connection". The train would now stop on the Manhattan bound platform of 121 St. and change direction for the next trip.
That setup was a pain in the ass during the morning rush, with only one track in use. Trains were always held at 111th St.
Prior to the use of the scissor crossover, the tracks between 111th and 121st were temporarily re-aligned. All trains switched over to the center track after leaving 111th. About a trainlength past this switch the center track merged with the Manhattan bound track. Part of the Manhattan-bound track was temporarily severed from service. All trains used the Manhattan-bound platform. Leaving 121st St trains used the temporary merger to the center track, then switched back to the Manhattan bound track just before arriving at 111th. The Jamaica bound track was used to store trains.
I rode the Jamaica line when the terminal was at Queens Blvd, but I never rode between the time when they cut it back to 121st, and when they extended it to Jamaica Center. Was the Jamaica Bound platform at 121st temporarily "abandoned" during that whole time?
I thought I seem to remember them using either platform at Queens Blvd when that station was the terminal, I was just wondering about 121st.
Not abandoned, just not used. The platform always had a laid up train on it. The track configuration during this time meant that any train headed to Manhattan from this platform could NOT cross over to the proper side before getting to 111th St. Laid up trains would wrong rail into the eastbound platform at 111th, then reverse direction thru the temporary track setup to get onto the Manhattan bound track.
Interesting. It certainly was not an ideal terminal. Luckily it wasn't for too many years.
Nope, just 2. Once the majority of the work connecting the ramp from the Archer Ave bellmouth to the existing steel structure was done, the tracks were restored and the new crossover east of 121st was used. Not sure exactly when this changeover happened, but I'm assuming it was in late 1987.
"I'm probably not old enough to even remember the el all the way to 168.)"
Heh. Well, I remember it. I think my memories of Jamaica Avenue was of probably the last time the Avenue was still considerd to be a valid shopping destination for a large area around it. Including Nassau/Suffolk and other boroughs of the city. Had big city style department stores, many many other small and medium shops, including a magic and practical jokes store that I loved to go to. Movies, banks, crowds of shoppers, the smells and sounds of the buses passing and the el train rumbling by every few minutes. When you're on a street like that you know that you've arrived at the "main drag".
The malls like Green Acres started the long reduction in regional importance of centers like Jamaica. What a calamity that cycle has been. I don't care about how momentarily convenient it is to be able to park in a huge lot and drive your stuff home. The overall results of this changeover has not been very good to out city. (Although thank goodness for places like 86th Street in Brooklyn. The rhythm still beats strongly, on streets like that.) I'm just glad I knew the Avenue when it was still a main destination. I mean, seeing the el supports was to me like seeing trees in the forest to a country boy. A natural, normal part of the scenery. Later, in the `70s and early `80s I was able to use the Jamaica el more frequently, as I had a girlfriend in Williamsburg and I lived in Central Islip. Those long nightime el rides from Hewes Street to Sutphin Blvd. on Sunday nights were good for the spirit.
My most vivid memory of the el was a giant billboard for the movie "Star Wars" attached to the very end of the structure at 168th St, easily visable after leaving the old "Mays" department store.
That's a great story. I have to agree, Jamaica Avenue definitely lost something when the el was removed. As a kid in the 70's, I had an Aunt that lived somewhere in the 150's and I remember taking the el to go visit her. She would usually meet me and my mother at Sutphin Station and we would then go eat somewhere before heading out further to go shopping at Mays or Gertz, etc. I also remember that billboard at the end at 168th Street very well (although not with "Star Wars" on it). I also remember riding under that rusting green el in the car with my father (it could have been after it closed, I don't remember) asking him why it was so rusty, and I nearly cried when he said they were going to take it away......
Heh. Well, I remember it. I think my memories of Jamaica Avenue was of probably the last time the Avenue was still considerd to be a valid shopping destination for a large area around it. Including Nassau/Suffolk and other boroughs of the city. Had big city style department stores, many many other small and medium shops, including a magic and practical jokes store that I loved to go to. Movies, banks, crowds of shoppers, the smells and sounds of the buses passing and the el train rumbling by every few minutes. When you're on a street like that you know that you've arrived at the "main drag".
The malls like Green Acres started the long reduction in regional importance of centers like Jamaica. What a calamity that cycle has been. I don't care about how momentarily convenient it is to be able to park in a huge lot and drive your stuff home. The overall results of this changeover has not been very good to out city.
Some of the merchants who were along Jamaica Avenue had to bear partial blame for the area's decline. They pressured the MTA to remove the elevated line because they considered it noisy, unsightly and downscale, even though everyone knew that the Archer Avenue subway was still years off. Well, the merchants got their wish, and the fact that the neighborhood therefore was left without effective mass transit for a decade was one of the factors - of course, there were others - that contributed to its decline. If there's any poetic justice in the situation, it's that many of the merchants who demanded the el's premature removal soon became casualties of Jamaica's decline.
Yup, very true. If they had been smart, they should have kept the el until around the time when the line was cut back the second time to 121st Street to connect the Archer in the late 80's. That would have left a much shorter time frame without subway service (although Jamaica Center still falls short of where the old el used to go to 168th Street).
Would anyone happen to have any photos of the El east of Queens Blvd during demolition? I witnessed in person the actual demolition of the Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd portion along with the Culver shuttle section. Cried my eyes out.
Click Here, Today's Tunnel Vision
Congratulations on your day of fame, Clayton!
Yeah, congrats. On a related note, after my (B) train had come to a stop inbetween stations this morning, the C/R today announced, "The train has momentarily come to a stop. We will be moving shortly." WOW. How did he figure that one out?
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Hey at least he didn't give you the announcement I heard on the N/B D train just south of 59 today: "Due to congestion ahead of us we are delayed, please be patient". 3 minutes later the "congestion ahead of us" passed us on the left.
Peace,
ANDEE
My C/R (oops! guard) on the MBTA Red Line this morning must have been a rail fan. Arriving at Park Street (Alewife bound), he announced, "Ladies and gentlemen, this train will be crossed-over at the next interlocking, and return in service to Braintree so that we can close a gap in service."
Most in my car said, "HUH?" But then, the automated announcement (it was an 1800-set, David Cole) came on and boomed, "LAST STOP! THANK YOU FOR RIDING THE T!" And everyone got off the train.
HAHA
Nice. A moment of glory.
Held for an A? The conductor even BOTHERED? That's what the middle ramp is FOR fer krimminy's sake. If there's an A train north of Chambers St, the D gets to wait for it. That required an ANNOUNCEMENT? :)
I remember on April Fool's Day in 1993 when I rode an "F" train to 179th St. Jamaica, the conductor would announce loud and clear just before he was ready to close the doors "STEP IN, PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS!!" and then you would hear the "DING!, DONG!" of the door chimes since I was riding a train of R-46s. I'll never forget that and sometimes just for fun I like to mimic that conductor by saying "STEP IN, PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS!!, "DING!, DONG!"
#3 West End Jeff
I don't get it.
[...the C/R today announced, "The train has momentarily come to a stop. We will be moving shortly."]
IIRC, the conductor is also supposed to announce WHY the train is delayed. For example, yesterday at 3:15 PM at West 4th Street: "This Queens-bound F train is being held for a connection with the next Grand Street Shuttle" (which is 12 minutes away - since the previous shuttle had just left).
So, who gave Mr Kennedy an outdated copy of the Blue Book? The current version has 31 pages. "Stand clear of the closing doors, please," doesn't show up until page 16; "We are delayed bya person on the tracks," is on page 25, and; "Please release the train doors so that the train can leave the station," is only to be used after "Ladies and Gentlemen, please do not hold the train doors open." They are not either/or choices.
Maybe Jimmy did. Fell into the whole give the media stuff and info to get my name in writing crowd.
I am not a native of NYC, and I am always reading about people holding the doors open. Why do they do this? I don't get it.
Pretty easy if you think about it. To let other people, like friends or relatives board, maybe someone has a baby stroller. You have to remember, these are New Yorkers we are talking about.
I was just wondering, why do all the stations on the Canarsie, Jamaica, Broadway, Myrtle, and Crosstown Lines have closed "Emergency" exits? How much could it possibly cost to put in HEET turnstiles in some of them? They don't even need a station agent to watch it if they used those. It's a pain always having to walk to the opposite end of the platform to get in, meanwhile missing my train. The worst of all is Broadway Junction, where you must climb 4 stories then go down one just to get on the J or L trains, when there are two exits on Broadway, both closed. Couldn't they open even ONE?
About 0758 hours this morning a propane car derailed at the New York & Atlantic's Fresh Pond Yard. There is no leak and no spill. FDNY and NYPD are monitoring the situation. No effect to NYCTA passenger service. At this time, new car delivery for tonight is cancelled.
Oh well! At least the car isn't leaking anything!
-Stef
I'm sure some of the crew did! lol
Just lucky it was being moved in the yard -- otherwise speeds would have been greater and with propane cars -- ya don't wanna mess with those at high speeds. :O
Coming after the tanker explosion on Staten Island, a propane blast in Queens would have really unnerved a lot of people (though if you really want to see something weird, wait until a liquid nitrogen tank car explodes).
Coming after the tanker explosion on Staten Island, a propane blast in Queens would have really unnerved a lot of people
For sure. What with all the paranoid bedwetting cowards and ignorant schmucks on Wall Street, a propane blast would've dropped the Dow 100 points ... oh wait, that's already happened.
Sidenote: Investors are said to be "unnerved" by a bomb blast at the airport in the city of Davao in the Philippines - a place that 99% of Americans couldn't find on a map, and a news item that would have been virtually ignored 18 months ago. Christ.
Yea, I saw that today on the noon Wall Street report AP sends out. It gives me a mental image of all these big mutual fund managers looking and acting something like Don Knotts whenever some minor unexpected thing comes up.
Yea, I saw that today on the noon Wall Street report AP sends out. It gives me a mental image of all these big mutual fund managers looking and acting something like Don Knotts whenever some minor unexpected thing comes up.
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
I just can't comprehend how the United States ever got through World War II, the Cold War, and so on. Past generations must have been a hell of a lot more courageous than today's cowards.
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
If you try uulating while you do it, you can probably knock 10 percent off the market's price...
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
If you try uulating while you do it, you can probably knock 10 percent off the market's price...
Now, if I rode a camel instead of walking ... well, it would be October 1929 all over again.
Paturkey has been promising them upgrades to their facilities for years now, and still nothing. If I'm not mistaken, they also dropped a train on the bushwick branch last week.
the tracks are in shit condition, and since the RR doesn't own them, there's nothing they can do but deal wait until someone gets killed in order for the problems to be taken seriously... of course, once that happens though, they'll call the RR a nusance...
NY&A's situation within city limits seems no better than the old Cross Harbor's sitaution. (more on that here" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/nyregion/02RAIL.html?pagewanted=1 )
The only thing either of them have in their favor is that the tracks are so bad they can't move very fast, leaving the frequent derailments not-too-distructive and rather unnewsworthy.
Expect a lot more cars to hit the floor before anything gets fixed.
Believe it or not, but a derailment -- if not hazardouse to persons and/or cargo -- is HELPFUL to NY&A...it's the only time ties -- and occasionally rail -- get replaced! :)
LOL! So all they have to do is keep derailing cars?! Maybe when the stone traffic starts they can drag a derailed train of them through the yard and get the tracks redone one at a time!
Maybe this explains the plethora of freight trains I saw on the Bay Ridge line as I rode past it on the N today.
Email the MTA here.
At least it's a form. Not the e-mail address itself.
Yeah, I saw that last night and I thought of your December 2002 thread. But I figured it must have been added to the site previously and I just hadn't seen it until now.
---Brian
Well, now you can email your questions as well. I had a feeling you could, sooner or later.
It's about damn time, now all the foamers can go crazy. But be advised someone on the inside told me it has a vulgarity filter.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you know if questions and suggestions are forwarded to the appropriate parties? If I write a long, detailed suggestion, I want to be sure it's read by more than a customer service agent.
Sorry, I do not know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "vulgarity filters" ... are they INBOUND or OUTBOUND? :)
Both.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, I'd give my left nut to define the lookup tables. qwap, sheet, phuck, wankel rotary engine ... :)
I'll see of I can get the lookup tables for you. My contact works in IT. They have always had the filters, even before public exposure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't mind me if I find the concept dumb ... sometimes you WANT to know just how "hot" the complainant is. And when you work in civil service, well ... you should be able to handle the obscenities. After all, ever have a politician in your face? For masters of "decorum" many are a sight to behold. :)
I've seen some funny results with vulgarity filters.
Names like:
Lipshitz or Takashite
become:
Lip[censored]z and Taka[censored]e
LOL
Parliament's e-mail filter celebratedly bounced back an e-mail from a man named Butt.
Did anyone read any of the Subway FAQs? Some are priceless.
Lol yes! I personally liked "Where is Grand Central Terminal?", "Is the Port Authority Bus Terminal at Penn Station?", "What should I know if I am a disadvantaged-, minority-, or women-owned business and want to do business with the MTA?", "If my bus or subway train is late, can I get a letter for my employer?"...
Well, they better add a few more to the subway FAQ's or knowing some railfans, the poor "email reader" will run screaming out of the office and quit after a week. I can hear it now.......
"Is there really a 76th Street station?"
"WHen is the transit museum opening?"
"Why are the platforms offset on the lower Lexington line?"
"Why don't they fold up the cabs so people can see out the front window?"
Why don't they use R40's on the A train anymore?"
.....and the list continues......
Very nice that they've added that.
The best way to communicate with them is still by US mail or by telephone, however.
Is there a conductors test coming up anytime soon (like within the next year or so)? I've been checking with DCAS and on the MTA's website, but I haven't found any info, has anyone heard anything?
Nope,as far as I know,there isn't any conductors test coming up this year nor next.I'm waiting to see when the next conductor's test will be too.I'm dyin to be a conductor for the TA.
I'm dyin to be a conductor for the TA.
When's the funeral? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Conductor is not a job worth dying over. Trust me!
I don't think there will be one anytime soon. They still have a list out from the Exam in 1999 and they stopped hiring off the list because of the hiring freeze.
B division C/R school car is taking their yard practical at CIY tomorrow morning at 8am. They just hired 10 people.
Thats good to hear. I understand B Div needs all the C/R's they can get.
THere must be atleat 30 new C/R in this class, I think that this is the smallest number they have per class. Also they most likey got in right before the freeze was put in.
Robert
Actually, I believe there were only 10 people in this class. My friend was called on a Wednesday, and the TA asked him if he could start next Monday. He said yes, and they told him to report to ENY. Naturally, when Monday rolled around, there were only 9 students, b/c one had already dropped out. I don't know how many failed school car, and I don't care anymore.
Why? Because I don't understand why they don't recruit some T/O's over to the B division. They recently recruited 35 C/R's. There's definitely a shortage of T/O's in the B. Almost daily, the B div crew office assigns voluntary overtime to an average of 25-35 T/O's a day. That's alot of overtime. Now, let's look at the A division T/O sheets. How many T/O's are working board/GAP/WAA today? 50? 60? It's just a matter of time before someone realizes that the B division needs T/O's, and the A division has plenty to spare. I know T/O's in the A divsion who have not been given voluntary overtime in four months.
Tolls are killing me and my co-workers from Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island. Over the course of a year, we will spend the equivalent of 3 weeks take home pay on TOLLS and GAS. So whatever overtime we make working 10 hour yard jobs, or 9+ hour jobs on the 3 and 4 lines, is offset by toll and gas costs. Oh well, at least I have a job. I guess I should count my blessings, and just deal with it.
I know a lot of new T/O's that would kill to be in B Div. One T/O I worked with one time loves the subway and lives around Coney Island he wrote many G2's already but they just keep him on the #2 Line out of White Plains.
If there is indeed a hiring freeze, it's just a matter of time before the B division asks for some volunteers. If not, I'm going to be stuck in the A for awhile longer.
Did you know that there are about 4 classes in A division school car as we speak? I can't believe they're still hiring.
Nothing wrong with the A div. Great people. Great management. Great equipment(except the R-36 on the 7). The 6 line is great. The 7 is usually great. The 1 can be fun, and I love the 2 line. The 4 is by far the worst, and the 5 is not far behind on my "worst lines" list. The 3 is also a terrible place to be.
There are so many penalty jobs in the A division yards and road. I can't wait to see the call sheets when they come out. I bet you'll see no less than 25 T/O's from the B division transferring over. Maybe more.
"Hiring freezes" can be gotten around, it merely requires the agency to demonstrate greater than planned "attrition" and the declaration of an "emergency" if they fall TOO short of people to do the job. Where it gets interesting though is that in an "emergency" people can be hired as "temporaries" or "provisionals" and given a job for six months and then put on the street if the agency's financial situation doesn't improve (and here it won't) ...
So never say never - political agencies can do whatever they feel the NEED to do, regardless of "freezes" ... and if there's survivors on the "eligible list" who haven't been called up for school car, they can go there first. They might even do another set of civil service tests and list-filling even if there will never be anyone hired. Some interesting times ahead - watch the rules bend. Watch rocks float. Film at 11 ...
Those 4 classes need to be going to B Div I hear they need them more then A Div. However I don't mind taking students.
My favorite IRT lines from Best to Worst 5,6,1,3,2,4,7. The #5 is the best in my opinion because of the diffrent locations in the IRT you can end up and I just like the Dyre Line but pass on the eats. The #7 sucks because the R36's are not C/R friendly and the R62 singles I hate because you have to cross over with the door opening out instead of in.
50 C/R's was hired last week. 30 to the A div. 20 to the B.
Currently, there are T/O school car classes in both the A and B as we speak.
I noticed that you listed the 7 line as your least favorite line. It seems like everyone hates that line. I used to think it was the greatest until I got one of those 5 trippers that pays only 8 hrs. Who writes these jobs?
I've been watching the new show "Miracles" on ABC Mondays @ 10pm EST. (I think its good, like "The X-Files" meets "The Sixth Sense.") Last night, the main characters, who investigate seemingly paranormal miracles, travelled from Boston (where they are based) to Hartford via train. The scenes at Hartford station clearly weren't filmed at the actual Hartford station -- the station in the show was a grade level affair, with the tracks running at grade far enough for the lead character to run alongside them (in an effort to stop the train, which he *knew* was about to crash). The train exterior was gray and had no other livery (it may have been digitally removed in post-production). The interior scenes were filmed on rolling stock which was definitely not of the Amfleet or Heritage variety you would likely see on the Boston-Hartford run, with a rather ornate dining car, actually.
There was also a scene at the beginning of the show in which a T bus blows up. This bus may very well have been a T bus, with its yellow and white livery, and with the location looking very much like it could have actually been in Boston. [Setting this scene on a bus rather than a Heath-bound Type 7 LRV was probably easier for the production, but not as fun for me :O) ]
I'm guessing this TV show is filmed in Vancouver, and the train was probably a VIA train. I am familiar with Amtrak and GO equipment, yet this consist of gray rolling stock was unfamiliar to me. Perhaps it was L.A. commuter equipment. Can anyone verify the location and origin of the trains?
<< There was also a scene at the beginning of the show in which a T bus blows up. This bus may very well have been a T bus, with its yellow and white livery, and with the location looking very much like it could have actually been in Boston. >>
Ah, so that's where it was. I didn't see the show but I did see a promo for it, all I could tell was that the doomed bus was an RTS.
The commuter equipment in LA (Metrolink) would be the Bombardier "lozenge" shaped cars painted white with purplish-blue striping/lettering. Doesn't sound like LA to me.
http://www.lirr.org/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm
On this map you can see that is much closer to NY then .
Most pax must transfer to a MU at Huntington which, when running of peak makes all local stops to New Hyde Park. Ronkonkoma trains stop at Hicksville, Mineola then Jamaica. I find that this is vert unfair to PJ customers. Should the local stops between Hicksville and Jamaica be split between the two lines? For example, the train form RON should make Merillon AVE and NHP while the PJ connection makes Westbury and Carle Place? This is done on the weekends and it seems like a fair deal.
Most people would agree that this does seem unfair, but the reason it was done was because there was no electric service out to Ronkonkoma. When electrification came to Ronkonkoma, the LIRR ran big ads that you could not get into the city in less time because of the new service. So explains why there is express service for that line as opposed to the Hungtington line.
Actually, on weekends, there is no PJ service into the city. The line operates as a Hicksville-Jeff shuttle, with limited service to Jamaica. Also, no PJ train will make all those stops. For the most part, the stops are made by Huntington-only trains.
Have you ever had to ride the train to or from Ronkonkoma on a weekend?
It is the most aggravating ride, why cant there be an express train
to Hicksville?
the ride is almost an hour and a half!
Can anyone tell me why there are no TVMs at the LIRR station at Woodside?...I remember seeing the old one there before, but now there seems to be NONE!......
There was a (new-style) LIRR TVM at Woodside on Valentine's Day, when I ended up there to catch a Port Washington-bound train (after finding LIRR service from Penn Station suspended because of that track fire). I actually started to buy a ticket, until I realized there was no way LIRR would be collecting any fares.
Yesterday night while I was on the 7 train going eastbound, I noticed that the Hunterspoint station for the LIRR was totally in the dark. Why is that?...I always saw it lit up always until now.
Whats the point?
No trains are stopping there after 6:30 PM
Has the MTA introduced a new production line of MetroCards that feature "safety messages" on the backs of the cards? My mom got a MetroCard last month that had a message about slowing down on stairways and escalators, and to always hold handrails on stairways and escalators. The two-line message has a top and a bottom border with slanted blocks going in one direction (IIRC) and looks like a "railroad native."
Are all current MetroCards this way?
Who can endorse designs and programs on MTA MetroCards?
'Railroad Native'?
That's the design used on conductor boards. The conductor has to make sure he/she is at that point and point too to ensure the train matches exactly with the station. Otherwise, don't open the doors!
Peter,
I guess you have been away from this board for a while because these cards have been out since the latter part of 2002. There are 4 cards so far:
#1 Why run for the train. There's another one just like it on the way.
#2 Please, no running in the station. (Although we applaud your boundless energy and zest for living.)
#3 Hold onto your youth, your dreams and while you're at it, the handrails.
#4 Please use the escalators on stairs and escalators. They're free.
The messages are boardered by the black/white stripes emulating the C/R stopping board.
What are the physical differences of these locomotives. I can't distinguish any up close.
I haven't seen this posted here; sorry if it has been. On Tuesday, March 11, between 1100 hours and 1400 hours there will be a Jamaica line super express operational test. Approximately four designated intervals in each direction will operate local between Marcy and Myrtle.
Four super express trains will operate light between Jamaica Center and Broad Street, making simulated stops in each direction at the following stations: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Woodhaven, Crescent, Broadway Junction, Essex, Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad.
Southbound departures will leave Jamaica Center 20 minutes apart between 1128 hours and 1228 hours; northbound departures will leave Broad Street 20 minutes apart between 1244 hours and 1344 hours.
Southbound express will operate via Track J2 from Jamaica Center to north of Broadway Junction, then via J3/4 to north of Marcy, then via J2/R1 to Broad. Northbound will operate via R2/J1/J4/J1 from Broad to north of Marcy, then via J3/4 to north of Broadway Junction, then J1 to Jamaica Center.
This is in General Order 3426-03.
What exactly is this trying to test? An actual possible service pattern?
If there's serious thought to a Jamaica super-express, I wonder if there's sufficient demand to route it from Essex to 8th Avenue through the Chrystie Street connection? The challenge then is to find a north terminal that doesn't tie up traffic.
This could potentially replace the J/Z skip-stop serivce; the J would be the local, and the Z the new super-express. Or, it could be a resurrected K. Or (heaven forbid), a P.
Or, an alternative idea would be to run it from Jamaica Center to Continental Ave via the Christie Street connection and 6th Avenue, replacing the current V's south terminal of Second Ave.
(If there's serious thought to a Jamaica super-express, I wonder if there's sufficient demand to route it from Essex to 8th Avenue through the Chrystie Street connection?)
Todd, the Regional Plan Association is pushing the super express as an alternative to the Brookfield plan to get a better ride for LIRR riders and Airtrain riders to Lower Manhattan.
I'm surprised they are going to try it with the existing infrastructure. The transfer means going from up above to deep underground. And there is no third track, so they'll have to time a battery run.
As you know from other threads, we had discussed putting in a third track from 121st to Broadway Junction -- incluing one track on a viaduct straight down Jamacia, avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Such a service could have orignated/terminated up on the LIRR level with 12 tph, supplementing the existing J/M/Z.
Too bad it isn't 100 years ago, pre NIMBY, consultants, construction unions, budget approvals, etc. They would have had the third track in and used for express service in four months with line-of-sight operating (the signals and interlockings would come later). And you know, the 1/9 restoration shows the TA personnel, engineers, and NYC contruction workers and contractors are fully capable of doing it right now.
(I'm surprised they are going to try it with the existing infrastructure. The transfer means going from up above to deep underground. And there is no third track, so they'll have to time a battery run. )
Looking at the J/Z schedule, it looks like it might work. The following could happen every 12 minutes:
00: Z train, current skip stop to eastern Parkway, uses express tracks after Eastern Parkway. The semi-express, 44 minutes to Broad St.
03: J train, current skip-stop, plus all stops after Eastern Parkway. The near-local, 48 minutes.
09: Super-express. Makes up 4 minutes relative to the J on the way to Eastern Parkway, then uses the express track. Passes the previous J but does not catch up to the previous Z. 41 minutes to Broad St.
12: start all over again.
It seems more viable for people taking the bus to Parsons/Archer than for LIRR passengers. The latter probably would still be better off going to Flatbush. But it might encourage the Parsons crowd to take the faster trains through Brooklyn rather than the E.
The J line still suffers from an inordinate amount of timers and wheel detectors which make traversing this line over it's full length an ordeal. The super express option doesn't address this problem.
I see a few problems with this approach:
Skip-stop stations will have service reduced from 6 tph to 5 tph.
J and Z trains will have uneven loading. (Why not have the J and Z run exactly as they do now? The superexpress still probably wouldn't pass the Z -- but if it does, big deal.)
The M may introduce problems in both directions.
Is total service of 15 tph, or more south of Myrtle, warranted? Even if so, might it not make sense to send one of the three distinct services uptown rather then sending them all to Broad (and beyond, in the case of the M)?
Aye, but you need at least one Montague service through Broad at least during weekday/evening hours.
Does an extended "V" to Canarsie factor into this equation?
wayne
See my other post about running all Canarsie services via Broadway-Brooklyn and terminating the L at Broadway Junction. I was being deliberately vague, but perhaps the new Canarsie service could be the V (or C, under an alternative version, with the V running to Euclid and perhaps the E and F swapping terminals as well to avoid merging delays at W4).
A"s you know from other threads, we had discussed putting in a third track from 121st to Broadway Junction -- incluing one track on a viaduct straight down Jamacia, avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Such a service could have orignated/terminated up on the LIRR level with 12 tph, supplementing the existing J/M/Z."
Even if you had to follow the Crescent Street curve to avoid $$$ and NIMBY problems, it would still gain you something useful. It's worth considering.
"Too bad it isn't 100 years ago, pre NIMBY, consultants, construction unions, budget approvals, etc."
Don't waste your time or ours crying about that. Also, don't forget that the Capital Planning process is what saved the TA and allowed new construction of all types to go ahead. I don't want to go back to the "good old days."
The Brookfield plan, in my view, was terrible. In contrast to that, this plan is much better, but I'd rather not ever use anything like the Brookfield 'plan' as a baseline.
The Broadway El plan, insofar as something done with infrastructure as it now exists, seems too ambitious to me, though. With some of the ideas for new construction, the express service idea becomes more viable, but it seems to me that the whole concept is ahead of its potential time. If it should ever come between the Brookfield plan and this one, though, I would be squarely for this one.
Hopefully, the Brookfield plan has been relegated to the abyss it belongs in-anyone know if this is so?
Hopefully, the Brookfield plan has been relegated to the abyss it belongs in-anyone know if this is so?
Hopefully Brookfield have seen sense and will spend a little money on the BJ - Cypress Hills flyover instead of on expensive tunnels.
Just a really random thought - take 2 tracks South of Chambers St, drop them down below the other lines, then run crosstown on Vesey St to a terminal between Greenwich and West Sts - that would satisfy their purpose completely!
Then a peak direction service could be run with the following stops: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, BJ, Marcy, Essex, Bowery, Canal, Chambers, Vesey St Terminal (WTC).
Just call it the "Z" and be done with it!
wayne
What's the point? It's just gonna have to slow down to 15MPH every station, what'll it save, two, three minutes at most? The only part of this plan that makes any sense is making use of the center track from Bway Jct to Myrtle. Now, that could save about 3-4 minutes alone. The rest is pointless without an express track of some kind.
Exactly that -- useless. First like you mention, slowing to 15 MPH. Second, this will work on a 10 minute headway, but try less, and you'll have the "SuperExpress" running into the its leader, which is running local on the same track PA-J to ENY. So to make this a real service wouldn't make any sense.
Also, I haven't been on a train switched over at ENY except due to a problem in service, but IIRC trains have to take the switch real slow, which hurts time there.
And light trains simulating stops? What would make more sense is to do like the "V" line test in 9/01, which would be to run it, picking up passengers. You'll have confusion of course, but we all know ENY is one station you don't get the doors closed in 10 seconds. The confusion caused and door holding would make the test more "accurate".
Build an express track, widen Woodhaven Blvd into an express stop (I believe there is adequate room from looking at it from the street), make this express track feed off at Cypress Hills along Jamaica Ave to above Alabama Ave where it comes down into the trackway in plain view. Without all of these (except the Woodhaven Blvd extension isn't immediately necessary) the express will save nothing, especially since the J/Z make only half the stops already with the skip-stop.
they use to run a service like this in the mornings[two trips]and the evenings[a few trips] on the QJ/J,and on the KK between ENY and Jamaica......
They also did something like that on the Canarsie Line (between Lorimer and Myrtle) years back.
Inbound, any express service would have to be designed to catch up to the local just before B'way Junction in order to allow it to pass at least one local J or Z train, plus possibly an M train between Myrtle and Marcy, and have any effect at all on the time schedule. If not, the MTA would just be creating a more glorified "skip stop" train that doesn't open its doors at a few more stations than before, but really achieves no time savings on the Broad-Parsons run.
PM rush would be even trickier, since the routing down the Broadway-B'klyn express track would have to take into account any M trains in front of it that would need to use the crossover east of Myrtle (outbound M trains in AM rush could be held at Myrtle to allow the inbound trains to pass with far fewer complications).
B'way-B'ylyn express service has been done before, of course, but enough riders would have to notice a difference in travel time in order to (presumably) draw more Jamaica-area passengers headed downtown off of the E and justify the change to offset the slightly longer ride J passengers at non-express stops would be forced to endure.
And any use of the Chrystie St. connection east of B'way Junction would either be as unsuccessful as the old KK was due to the huge number of local stops, or unfair to downtown J train riders, if it was designated the express service in order to attract more midtown passengers off the E train going to/from Jamaica. In the future, when the CTBC tests are completed on the Canarsie route, I think the best option would be sending selected V trains via Chystie Street via B'way-B'klyn local to Canarsie. That would permit all J or Z trains to operated peak-direction express from Broadway Junction to Marcy while giving Rockaway Parkway riders a one-seat ride to Midtown Manhattan (and which is a topic that's been covered dozens of times on the board before).
It would also run empty after Sutphin Blvd. The express will undoubtedly catch up to the local up in front of it, pulling into each elevated "express" stop right behind the previous local train. Savvy J riders at these stations will not "wait for an express" because this express trains can not physically pass the local until it reaches Broadway Junction.
I don't see any advantage to a super express over the current skip/stop setup. In fact, I see more problems.
That's why I think the best future option would be keeping the J/Z skip-stop along Jamaica Ave., and running both peak direction express while extending two out of every three V trains to Rockaway Parkway (the other would still terminate at Second Ave.). That would be the best way to speed up service for passengers at all stations between Parsons and B'way Juntion, not just selected ones.
You couldn't do it right now, of course, because of the signal testing on the Canarise line, but by the time that's completed, and possibly when the new 60-foot R-160 trains arrive, the Canarise-B'way Bklyn connection could be reactivated and Jamaica Ave. riders would only have to deal with two stops going to/from East New York and Manhattan during rush hours.
And actually with that, the local stations from Marcy to Broadway Junction riders would get the added bonus of direct 6th Ave service (and M and J/Z riders would have an across the platform (or same platform) transfer to 6th ave service.
I'm wary of sending service thru the Bway Junction crossover to Canarsie. I don't want any of the capacity of the Rockaway Parkway terminal dedicated to a line which doesn't run along the L line's most heavily used section, which west of Broadway Junction, to service the Broadway elevated, which is already well serviced by current J/Z trains. You could short turn some trains at Myrtle Ave on the L, but what advantage is there to doing all of this?
Very true. Actually, the railfan in me sometimes jumps before the logical person comes through. The heavy part of the line is west of Myrtle, and were extra service would be more needed. The canarsie end does not really warrant that much extra service. As mentioned, Myrtle could be used as a terminal to add service west of it. The V would run to Rockaway Parkway. The only part of the line that would miss out would be Halsey, Wilson, and Bushwick (although I think Bushwick is a fairly low use station).
Although it would be a cool line from a railfan's perspective (however unneeded), using two unused connections. I know you have stated many times you are against using the 6th ave connection, but I really think that part of the idea is a good one. It's what to do with the V after it's on Broadway. Unfortunately, the V would be of more use to the M line north of Myrtle or even the Jamaica line. Unfortunately sending the V down Broadway and to Canarsie are just the parts of the Eastern Division that could use the Chrystie connection the least.
Well, since any possible implmentation of such a service would be half a decade away at the earliest, the MTA would have plenty of time to survey riders boarding at Rockaway Parkway or other stations south of Atlantic Ave., along with Canarsie express bus passengers if they would like a one seat ride to midtown Manhattan if it also meant a slight decrease in rush hour service to/from Eighth Ave.-14th St.
As you said, trains could be turned at Myrtle as they were during the skip-stop days on the Canarise line. If two out of every three L trains went to Rockaway Pkwy. during rush hours and two out of every three V trains went there as well, I don't think the total increase in service would overwhelm the terminal.
If Canarsie passengers were shown to support V train service and if the number of TPH wasn't too much for either Rockaway Pkwy. or the Wille B to handle, then the next question would be if the additional service would justify a slight reduction in peak direction local stop service at Koscizuzko, Gates and Halsey on the Broadway-Brooklyn line, and in service in both directions at Bushwick-Aberdeen, Wilson and Halsey on the L.
The M/V merger option also has been discussed on the board many times, and could be looked at as well. That wouldn't require any significant increase in TPH over the Willie B that adding a seperate V line to Canarsie would, but at the same time it removes the option of peak direction J/Z express service all the way from East New York to Marcy. In practice, that might only save a couple of minutes of travel time, but combined with ENY-Parsons skip-stop service, if it could get enough boarding passengers at Jamaica to go one flight further down and take the J or Z instead of the E to lower Manhattan, thereby easing crowding on the rest of the Queens Blvd. line, it would be worth it.
Well, all what you said makes sense, but the real answer to me, is not the J/Z skip-stop, or a super express on the local tracks, but the forever talked about third track over Jamaica Avenue. Amazingly, out of all the lines that have unused express tracks on them: the Culver, the West End, Jerome, White Plains, Sea Beach, and upper Broadway, etc; the one line that should have been built with an express track, and the one line out of those lines that really needs one, and the one line that would probably really be using it today if it had it.....is ironically the one where it didn't get built, the Jamaica line.
Given the distance to Manhattan and the fact that it's pretty much local all the way, the J counts as one of the most irritating trips into and out of the main business area of the city. All the other lines mentioned either go express or have the option to change to the express before the majority of people reach their destinations. Even if the difference is only a matter of minutes, the perception without a doubt keeps a lot of people off the line and keeps them on the E around Jamaica, or on the A or C trains going downtown from the East New York area.
New construction on Jamaica Ave. would be the best option, but given the MTA's priorities, just reactivating the express track on Broadway and continuing skip-stop west of there is about as much as can be expected. Since the flying junction at East New York between the L and J connects to the Broadway local tracks, the J/Z express service could run through the station at the same time an inbound/outbound V train is stopped there. That would leave the merge at Marcy inbound and coordinating the M train grade crossing with the J/Z express outbound as the main slowdown spots for any express service.
It's not a perfect answer, but it's better than the current situation.
Even if the difference is only a matter of minutes, the perception without a doubt keeps a lot of people off the line and keeps them on the E around Jamaica, or on the A or C trains going downtown from the East New York area.
The difference is only a matter of minutes -- in favor of the J/Z. Perception is the enemy.
Well, maybe five years from now, when the first of the R-160s start showing up, if they did implement the V-Canarsie option, those brand-new digital destination signs on the R-160s can say to AM rush hour passengers "J-Jamaica Ave-B'way Brooklyn express" "To Broad Street-Manhattan."
Actually seeing the magical word "express" on the side signs of the cars might finally get some people to try the line, instead of sardine-packing themselves inside the E every morning.
ANd actually, the perception is a bit false for Jamaica to downtown riders. I rememebr someone mentioning here that Jamaica Center to Chambers Street via J/Z skip stop is actually faster than Jamaica Center to WTC via the E. Of course, midtown is another story, but possible the V running on the Eastern Division could alleviate that a bit.
I think that was me. J/Z is faster than E. J/Z is faster than E to 6. J/Z is faster than E to 6 to 4/5. Or, rather, J/Z takes less time. It's slower, but it takes a more direct route. The E does move fast in Queens, but it's going the wrong way.
What E riders like is the thought that going express means faster. With service reliability, on time performance, less crowding and fewer abandoned intervals on the J vs. the E, the J is the better choice, but Supthin/Jamaica Center riders shun the J as compared to the E. I would wager many of those E riders would make better commuting time by taking the J/Z to B'way/Jct. and transfering to the A.
I would wager many of those E riders would make better commuting time by taking the J/Z to B'way/Jct. and transfering to the A.
E Train: average headway = 5 mins; average wait = 2½ mins
From Jamaica Center:
34th St: 39 mins (total = 41½ mins)
W4th St: 45 mins (total = 47½ mins)
Chambers: 50 mins (total = 52½ mins)
J/Z Train: average headway = 5 mins; average wait = 2½ mins
From Jamaica Center:
BJ: 21 mins (total = 23½ mins)
Allow 5 mins for transfer
A Train: average headway = 4 mins; average wait = 2 mins
From Broadway Junction:
Chambers: 22 mins (total = 52½ mins)
W4th St: 26 mins (total = 56½ mins)
34th St: 32 mins (total = 1 hour 2½ mins)
Therefore, you theoretically only gain time doing J/Z to A over the E train if you are going to a station South of Chambers St. At Chambers St you break even.
I realize you were responding to another post, but the apples to apples comparison is Jamaica to Chambers or Fulton/WTC via E or via J/Z without a change. There the J/Z wins by a few minutes. As you go further south, the J/Z wins by many more minutes because the E won't take you further and you need to change trains.
Exactly. The J/Z wins by so much that even with a transfer to the A train you still lose no time.
(Exactly. The J/Z wins by so much that even with a transfer to the A train you still lose no time.)
I think you all are missing the point. It doesn't matter if the J/Z or the E is faster; the point is both take too long to get to Lower Manhattan. Access to Lower Manhattan, both for Airtrain riders and for LIRR riders, has become a political and economic issue. The J/Z takes 47 minutes from Jamaica to Broad at rush hour. Add to that the wait for the train, and the bus ride/LIRR ride/Airtrain ride to get to Jamaica.
There isn't just a need to draw bus riders off the E. There is a need to draw LIRR riders who might go to Grand Central off the IRT GIVEN THAT THERE MAY BE ESA AND NO SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY, NOT EVEN STUBWAY. And there is a need to provide an attractive trip to Lower Manhattan for Airtrain riders, comparable to the LIRR ride to Grand Central or Penn.
The thing is, I don't think the "super J" using the existing infrastructure does it. It's still too slow, and the transfer is to a line two levels underground.
If they really want to improve access to Lower Manhattan, we'll need that third track straight down Jamaica Avenue. In fact, I'd say we'd need the "Super J" to terminate on the upper level, at the LIRR/Airtrain platforms. You'd have to run the existing service 12 train per hour from the lower level, for TA passengers, and a 12 trains per hour peak direction express on the center track (with perhaps a premium fare to enter/exit at Jamaica). The super express would run Jamaica/Broadway ENY/Marcy and onto Manattan.
In any event, I think the idea is to have SOMETHING in place for Lower Manhattan when the Airtrain opens for business.
In any event, I think the idea is to have SOMETHING in place for Lower Manhattan when the Airtrain opens for business.
Has anybody bothered to look at the projected use between Manhattan and Jamaica for Airtrain before making these plans? It's less than 2000 daily. Look at Airtrain's FEIS.
No one who has every worked on an FEIS takes them seriously.
Within reason, I'd say that cause and effect works both ways in transportation. Put in the rest of the third track, and run super express service, and more people would adjust their employment/residence/business location patterns to take advantage. Meanwhile, with service as it is, I'd be surprised if they get the 2,000.
The question remains why the urgency for the Jamaica Ave Super Express? You implied that it was to meet the anticipated new demand placed by Airtrain. A figure 2000 more passengers per day, a figure you discount, hardly merits an extra service.
The Jamaica Ave Super Express made sense as a quick and inexpensive alternative to the 63rd St tunnel, Queens Connector and Archer Ave Subway. It does not make sense today, after close to $2 billion have been spent on these three items. There is less rush hour service to Jamaica today than there was 50 years ago, so the present infrastructure has room for growth.
"The question remains why the urgency for the Jamaica Ave Super Express? You implied that it was to meet the anticipated new demand placed by Airtrain. A figure 2000 more passengers per day, a figure you discount, hardly merits an extra service. "
Correct. However, LIRR, city bus and LI bus passengers boarding the subway will benefit, and more would be encouraged to use the service. That along with AirTrain is what we are talking about.
"The Jamaica Ave Super Express made sense as a quick and inexpensive alternative to the 63rd St tunnel, Queens Connector and Archer Ave Subway."
False statement. The Jamaica Super Express' relevance has nothing to do with the Archer Av line. The Archer Av line now serves as the J/Z's new final segment. If the J can be made to run faster to Manhattan, then passengers boarding at Archer Av stations will benefit.
"There is less rush hour service to Jamaica today than there was 50 years ago, so the present infrastructure has room for growth. "
Operational conditions of 50 years ago are not relevant to 2003, as many of us have explained to you.
Good points. I think the MTA is on to something with the idea of a super-express. I only wish that they would build a completed third track between 121 Street and Crescent Street. I know I've probably said this before but here's how I'd have the Jamaica Line with an express run (with the completed express track between 121 Street and Crescent).
Z: Operates between Jamaica Center to Broad Street via Nassau/Jamaica Express. Z would run express between Sutphin Blvd and Essex Street (AM hours to Manhattan, PM hours to Queens). The Z would stop at the following stations in this stretch: Jamaica Ctr, Sutphin Blvd, Crescent Street, Broadway Junction, Myrtle Ave, then Essex. Reverse-peak Z would make all stops through this stretch. The Z would then make all stops, in both directions, between Essex and Broad Street. Operates wkdays 6 AM-9 PM.
J: Operates between Jamaica Center and Broad Street via local, making all local stops at all times.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Chambers Street via Myrtle/Nassau Local. Rush hours (post-2004), M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. Late nights shuttle between Metropolitan Ave and Myrtle Ave.
What do you all think? Comments, questions, criticisms are welcomed.
J:
Good plan. I do have a question though. Would Z trains just bypass stops on the regular track between Crescent and Bway Jct.? I understand what you are getting to, and between 121 and Crescent a track J3 is possible. However, would a flyover have to be built between Crescent to the stub structure @ Alabama Avenue, by the East New York Depot? Everything else just seems to require minor modifications, except for construction betwen 117 and 127 Sts, and between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
... between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
Don't forget, there used to be a center platform station on Crescent St at Jamaica Ave 86 years ago!
Good plan. I do have a question though. Would Z trains just bypass stops on the regular track between Crescent and Bway Jct.? I understand what you are getting to, and between 121 and Crescent a track J3 is possible. However, would a flyover have to be built between Crescent to the stub structure @ Alabama Avenue, by the East New York Depot? Everything else just seems to require minor modifications, except for construction betwen 117 and 127 Sts, and between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
What I had in mind was to have the Z skip the four stops between Crescent and B'way Junction like the LIRR. No new construction would be required through this stretch. During AM hours I would time service so that the Z Express would pass the J Local at around Cypress Hills. There would always be a J right behind a Z at Crescent St. That way the Z would be free to skip the next four stops. During PM hours I would time service so that the Z would merge in front of the J at B'way Junction. Again the Z would be free to skip the next four stops. Only if the schedules and timing are all fouled up on the peak direction side would the Z run local between Crescent Street and B'way Junction.
However, LIRR, city bus and LI bus passengers boarding the subway will benefit, and more would be encouraged to use the service
Convenience is a mixed bag versus pre Archer Ave days. The walk from the 165th St bus terminal to the 168th St station of the Jamaica Line was less 0.1 miles. The bus terminal was sheltered; the El station wasn't. The Jamaica Center terminal is 0.4 miles further from the bus terminal. The station is sheltered the bus stop isn't. Many buses do not stop at Jamaica Center but still terminate at the 165th St terminal. All LI buses are in this category. OTOH, walking distance for LIRR passengers is less to both the Jamaica Ave Line and to the IND Queens Blvd Line. However, the point was not to increase the number of people using the Queens Blvd line by taking the IND rather than the LIRR.
The Archer Av line now serves as the J/Z's new final segment.
There was nothing wrong with the old final segment which continued along Jamaica Ave to 168th St.
"Many buses do not stop at Jamaica Center but still terminate at the 165th St terminal. All LI buses are in this category."
A valid point. I would have the TAlook into addingcovered bus bays to Jamaica Station and a covered walkway. How to do that - dunno.
"The station is sheltered the bus stop isn't. "
The bus bays at Jamaica Center are covered - but most of the time you are likely to get wet going to the subway entrance.
"OTOH, walking distance for LIRR passengers is less to both the Jamaica Ave Line and to the IND Queens Blvd Line."
There is no walk to tthe Queens Blvd line. It's around the corner and straight down an escalator. As Jamaica SAtation's redo proceeds, the transfer will be all indoors and climate controlled.
"There was nothing wrong with the old final segment which continued along Jamaica Ave to 168th St."
Which doesn't make your comment about the Super Express any less irrelevant.
"However, the point was not to increase the number of people using the Queens Blvd line by taking the IND rather than the LIRR."
Maybe not, but using either or both got a lot easier when the Archer Av line opened. Never kick a gift horse in the mouth.
The bus bays at Jamaica Center are covered - but most of the time you are likely to get wet going to the subway entrance.
Let's get definitions clear. By sheltered I meant that it has 4 walls and a roof. The 165th St bus terminal does. The Jamaica Center stations does. The bus "shelters" don't. The old 168th St station did not.
There is no walk to tthe Queens Blvd line. It's around the corner and straight down an escalator.
I was referring to the pre-Archer days. It was a 2 block walk from the LIRR to Jamaica Ave and a 5 block walk to Hillside. Yes, the transfer is easier than the pre-Archer days.
As Jamaica SAtation's redo proceeds, the transfer will be all indoors and climate controlled.
Why didn't the MTA's planners build such a transfer back in the 1980's, when they designed the Archer Ave Subway?
Which doesn't make your comment about the Super Express any less irrelevant.
Archer Ave was not necessary for a Jamaica Ave Super Express. My point was that a Jamaica Ave Super Express built in the 1960's, in conjunction with the Chrystie St Connection, would have made the 63rd St Tunnel, the Queens Connector and the Archer Ave Subway unnecessary.
Maybe not, but using either or both got a lot easier when the Archer Av line opened. Never kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Increased rush hour use of the Queens Blvd IND, from a source that has other means of transportation, is not a gift horse; it's an albatross.
The walk from the 165th St bus terminal to the 168th St station of the Jamaica Line was less 0.1 miles. The bus terminal was sheltered; the El station wasn't.
Why do you feel the 168th St station wasn't sheltered? It was a center platform station, roofed over for its entire length. There was always a train in the station, most of the time two trains.
Why do you feel the 168th St station wasn't sheltered?
I used that old station enough times to appreciate its charms. It was extremely cold and windy in winter. The winds would suck out any heat left in the waiting cars despite the fact that most of the doors were closed while the train was waiting.
By sheltered I mean 4 walls and a roof, not a leanto with an unobstructed path to the north wind.
If you thought that 168th St was cold and windy, I'd hate to think what you must have thought about Eastern Parkway.
I thought 168 was a tropical paradise when compared to EP!
Agreed, the one time I was waiting for the J there (2/8/2003) Saturday at 7AM, I felt for the first time ever so cold that I could not stand on the platform another second and ran upstairs to wait until I heard the train. The station is relatively high, but I'm not sure if it is the angle the station is on that makes the wind come in. The fact that the platforms aren't the widest (though not the narrowest) contributed to getting me feeling like I would get blown off the platform. Don't get me wrong, I didn't think it would happen, but the sensation was there.
I got the same feeling myself many times. In the old days, people would huddle in the stairways until their train came. In the really old days EP was the turnback station for the Lexington Ave el late at night, and there would be a two car gate train standing on the center track to break the wind. Frequently a cooperative gateman would let waiting Jamaica train passengers on the warm cars while they waited for their train.
running the express from eastern pkwy to marcy would be a plus, but they should re consider constructing a 3rd track for through express service, even down jamaica av to alabama av. yes it will cost money but it is alot cheaper than a subway. sooner or later some one will have to bite the bullet to provide a better service. better service would draw more ridership.
john
Building an express track over the already-existing infrastructure between Crescent St. and 121st would be the cheapest option -- way cheaper than an actual new express track continuing down Jamiaca
Ave. to B'way Junction (with it's inevitable NIMBY battles). However, other than rehabing the connection at B'way Junction, skip-stop service from Parsons-Archer to East New York, combined with running the V to Canarsie would at least be a way to speed up J/Z service at a near-$0 cost to the MTA.
And as I said, when the new R-160s with their digital route signs come in a few years from now and the CTBC testing on the L is complted, just the ability to use the word "express" on the route sign for the J and Z trains will at least give the line a shot at getting passengers boarding at Jamaica or East New York who normally take the E or A trains to use it instead, which would relieve crowding on those two lines while having the added bonus of giving Canarsie riders the option of a single seat ride to midtown on the V.
I think the idea of extending the v down to canarsie is a very interesting idea. Could you just imagine leaving Atlantic ave station and running above the jamaica line on the fly over. as far as i remember i do not think that connection was used in revenue service since the lexington line was discontinued.
john
The 1967 TA subway map that was done following the opening of the Chrystie St. connection has the gone-but-not-forgotten JJ local, which ran from Broad Street to Rockaway Parkway using the Broadway Junction flyover. Like the NX, its time was short-lived, and so the connection has been out of revenue service for the past 35 years.
The problem seems to be, at least for the TA in 1967, that they were still locked in some sort of 1930s communitng pattern mindset when it came to the Eastern Division, and misued the Chrystie St. link and the Broadway Junction flyover. More Canarsie riders were headed north of 14th St. than south of there, so the JJ was attractive to only a very limited number of people (who would probably perfer the 2 or the A train to get downtown anyway), while the ensuing decision in 1968 to send the KK train to 168th St. instead of Rockaway Parkway also made little sense. While today's J/Z trains are faster from Jamaica to lower Manhattan than the E train, the KK was slower than either the E or the F from there to Midtown, and therefore failed to ever gain traction with riders (its part-time nature also didn't help).
Riders looked at the JJ on the 1967 map going north before going south or the KK on the 1968 map going south before going back north and said to themselves "too roundabout" and failed to use the service. If they had run the KK, or if they run the V in the future, from Canarsie up Sixth Ave., it certainly wouldn't be a straight line route like the old Eighth Ave. AA train was, but it would proceed in a generally similar direction from Canarsie to Midtown.
That may not be a fully rational reason for passengers to pick one line over another, but passengers in Jamaica headed downtown also stuff themselves into the E train over the less crowded and slightly faster J/Z trains, because passing by local stops on Queens Blvd. makes them feel like they're getting there faster. Having J/Z trains pass by stations on Bway-Brooklyn would give passengers there the same feeling (and really would make the trip on that route even faster than it is now on the E), while a V train to Canarsie wouldn't seem like it's going the wrong way to L train riders, who already have to cope with the zig-zag nature of the line as it winds its way around Newtown Creek headed for the 14th St. tunnel.
This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway? After Atlantic, all Manhattan-bound trains would stop at the lower (J) level at BJ; the upper level would function as a terminal for the L.
Hmmm. Interesting. I was going to recomend having the V terminate at Broadway Junction, but didn't mention it because I couldn't figure out a way to do it without interfering with the J/Z passing through. Your idea is very interesting; I hadn't thought of that one. Actually, it would not affect L riders west of BJ, and it's probably safe to say that many Canarsie riders either get off at BJ anyway, or if on their way to Manhattan, probably would transfer there anyway, this would give them possible a one seat ride, if midtown bound. And as for some of the Canarsie riders bound for lower Manhattan, that would have transfered at Myrtle-Wyckoff for the M via Nassau, well they can do that anywhere along the Broadway El.
The only problem I could see with that would be capacity on the Williamsburgh -- could the MTA run enough V trains to/from Rockaway Parkway, M trains to/from Metropolitan and J/Z trains to/from Parsons-Archer during rush hours and not exceed the maximum possible TPH for the tracks between Marcy and Essex. If CTBC in the future was extended to the Broadway el and IND and worked well enough (and the bridge is sound enough) to get the TPH up into the 24-30 range going over the Willie B, then it would be a viable option.
The bridge capacity concern is why I suggested continuing to turn every third V train at Second Ave., and every third L train at Myrtle -- the total number of J, M, V and Z trains over the bridge wouldn't be more than what was running 30 years ago with the KK, M and QJ trains, while Rockaway Parkway could handle a small incrase in the number of rush hour trains above its current levels.
(This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway?)
What's the benefit?
1. 14th St is closer to midtown (the end destination of at least 75% of rush hour customers) than Delancey/Centre/Nassau St.
2. The Canarsie Line has plenty of capacity to handle more customers if traffic increases, so there's no need to offload any.
David was talking about running all trains from Canarsie via Broadway-Bklyn using the V, which would then go up Sixth Ave. to midtown. The M, J and Z trains would continue on their current routes.
"(This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway?)
What's the benefit?
1. 14th St is closer to midtown (the end destination of at least 75% of rush hour customers) than Delancey/Centre/Nassau St."
Yes - which is exactly why this is such a *good* idea. The other half of the idea was that trains from Canarsie would run along the Broadway-Brooklyn line, over the Williamburg Bridge, over the Chrystie St connector, and get linked through on to the V. So those 75% of Canarsie passengers get a one-seat ride to midtown instead of having to transfer at 14th Street. The 25% of downtown passengers get a same-platform connection onto the J. Only real losers - those from the 14th St-Eastern line stations who actually want to go to Canarsie (or vice versa), who have to negotiate some stairs at Broadway Jcn-ENY, instead of having a one-seat ride.
I see two benefits.
First, from what I've read here, it seems like the L north of Broadway Junction could use more service. This would allow service to be added only where it's needed. Broadway Junction probably has a greater terminal capacity than Rockaway Parkway, since it doesn't end at bumper blocks.
Second, if the new Canarsie service is sent uptown via either 6th (V) or 8th (C), its passengers (along with Broadway-Brooklyn passengers) would have direct service to midtown. At the same time, the J/Z could run express all the way from Broadway Junction, saving a bit of time for passengers from further out and perhaps drawing some passengers off the E from Jamaica.
I like it, you got me sold. It's an idea I never even though of (operationally severing the Canarsie line from the 14th Street line. I think though it would solve a lot of problems/inconveniences the Eastern Division lines have by only going to lower Manhattan, and not to midtown, and it would speed up the Jamaica line a bit by avoiding Kosciusko to Chauncey.
Well, you COULD do it now if you swapped some R32's from the "E" for some R46s from the "V", making 8-car "V" trains of R32s. In fact, why not make the "V" 100% 8-car R32? It doesn't get any more crowded than your average "C" train does, does it?
wayne
It could be done now -- technically, if you continued to turn every third V train at Second Ave., you could run those using R-46s. That would lower the need for R-32s on that line, but would limit flexibility in case of diversions. But if the MTA does order enough R-160s to not only replace the R-38/40/42s but also the R-44s, that would give them more 60-foot cars to work with by the end of the decade (and until the signal testing is done on the Canarsie line, they won't even think about adding a second route south of Broadway Junction, even if Peter Kalikow thought it was the greatest idea since Swiss cheese).
This hypothetical scenario makes me wonder the following: Is there an acceleration difference between the R-32 and R-46 that is appreciable enough to show up over the course of a local route?
I think the R32 picks up quicker than the R46, but on the flats they're just about even.
wayne
I have no idea what this simulated test run is supposed to prove. If NYCT wants to run this service, it very well may be psychological warfare with the public making them think that they are saving time. The J line has a lot of reverse commuting: passengers riding the E and taking the J to/from points as far as Norwood Ave. Many of these passengers would be better off taking the A from Manhattan to B'way Jct. and getting the J there. They could save time that way but it is a very difficult thing to change riding habits of passengers. They have one way how to get there and they don't want to change it. Should NYCT for whatever reason wish to place this idea into actual service, I think it will be another "NX" fiasco.
I used to get the J at 121st back in 1987-88. It always irked me that the tracks between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Ave were not used for express service. The skip stop service was a help, but it still took a long time for me to reach Chambers. If the skip stop service is still in effect, they should continue that to Eastern Parkway westbound, then have the J run express, making Myrtle and Marcy only, while the Z runs local, then let that train skip Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes while the M makes the local stops.
However, I like the super express idea. Its about time. Let's see if it will work. In a way it remind me of the 5:41 super express to Ronkonkoma that I loved to ride. First stop: Hicksville!
If the skip stop service is still in effect, they should continue that to Eastern Parkway westbound, then have the J run express, making Myrtle and Marcy only, while the Z runs local, then let that train skip Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes while the M makes the local stops.
IIRC, 121st Street is a "Z" only station. I'm sure if it was still 1988, and you were still using that station, you wouldn't be to thrilled with the Z going local after Broadway Junction while the J speeded ahead. This would give the J stations an unfair advantage over the Z only stations. What makes skip stop work is the fact that there is NO advantage to being at a J only or a Z only station. Both trains are equally balanced. Run the J express there, and all of a sudden all the time the Z people gained by skipping stations with the J east of BJ, is lost. WHile now All the stations and passangers benefit from some skipped stations with skip stop, making the J express and the Z local in that spot will make only the J stations save time, while the Z only stations are now worse off. The only way thay express track can be used while skip stop is also used would be to send a third train though there to act as the local (as discussed in a different area of this thread), while letting BOTH the J and the Z run express.
They did a test like this on the 1 a few years ago. don't know what came of it.
Wonder why it would skip Myrtle.
I agree with others that any additional new service like this should be sent up onto the IND.
Wonder why it would skip Myrtle.
Myrtle is not a particularily important station, at least not when both the M and J are running. The M goes to the same place the J goes, so M riders wouldn't "need" to transfer to the express, and for the rare few Jamaica riders bound for the M line north of Myrtle, well, they'll just have to wait for the local.
I just heard someone from control center making a memo announcement for all employees at the end of their tour must report to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to get the masks/filter devices to protect against terrorist attacks. Those who do not pick them up will not be able to sign on during their next tour tomorrow or whenever they work next. Guess they mean business...
What do you guys think of this layout? (you need Bahn 3.75 or higher to run it)
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/Downloads/yourmap1WD.zip
No wonder Sea Beach riders bitch. This darn train gets held at EVERY major stop. I got on an N at Union Sq. at 2:05 PM today. Everything was fine until we got to Dekalb. Then the fun began:
Dekalb: Held 2 minutes to await a meeting with a southbound Q
Pacific St. Held 4 minutes to await a meeting with a southbound R
36th St. Held 2 minutes to await meeting of an M train on the local track
59th St. Held for 4 minutes to await a meeting of a southbound R (the same train we waited for at Pacific St!)
Kings Highway: Held 5 minutes for crew change (those new crews should be there to meet the train immediatley!)
Arrived at 86th St @ 2:57 PM. Travel time: 52 minutes.
What a joke. Why bother running the N down the express tracks on 4th Ave anyway? It took nearly 20 minutes from the time we arrived at Pacific to the time we left 59th St.
BTW, there IS a set of R32's still on the N. I noticed it going northbound at 20th Ave around 2:45 PM.
N = Never
R = Rarely
W = Wenever
[N = Never; R = Rarely; W = Whenever]
You forgot one... Q = Questionable
What about M= Maybe
Are those hold lengths accurate? It seems to me that somewhere in the rule book (or a policy/instruction?) is something about not holding a train more than two minutes (except in the event of a service disruption, of course).
According to the official timetable, there is no N train scheduled to leave Union Square at 2:05 PM. There IS one scheduled to leave 34th Street at 2:05-1/2 PM. It's scheduled to be held at 59th Street for 30 seconds and at Kings Highway for 3 minutes (presumably for the crew change). Scheduled arrival time at 86th Street is 3:03-1/2 PM. Therefore, a passenger boarding an N at 14th Street at 2:05 PM and getting off at 86th Street at 2:57 PM (as described in the post I'm responding to) did OK.
David
I'd swear on a bible that those holding times are accurate. Perhaps my 2:05 train at Union Sq. was a little early, but that doesn't excuse the myriad of holds.
The rule book says trains won't be held for connections during rush. But that is for the C/R, the tower does what the tower does.
Funny, I always thought the rules for holding for connections were:
(a) If Howard Fein wants to make a cross-platform connection, the train (Train B) he wishes to connect to WILL NOT HOLD. It may keep its doors open during the time it takes the train Howard Fein is connecting FROM (Train A) to completely enter the station and open its doors. But Train B will close its doors and depart the station at the same time Train A opens its, making any connection impossible. Should Howard Fein attempt to re-board Train A, it will close ITS doors and depart the station before this can be done, hence stranding Howard Fein on the platform.
(b) If Howard Fein is on Train A stopping at a station at which Howard Fein does not wish to make a cross-platform connection, Train A WILL STAY IN THE STATION with its doors open for up to fifteen minutes until Train B arrives across the platform, and will remain so while passengers transfer from Train B to Train A, which is usually overcrowded to begin with.
(c) These rules are to be enforced consistently without regard to whether it is rush hour, the middle of the night or any other time. Special attention to compliance to said rules must be paid when the station at which the cross-platform connection is to be made by Howard Fein is one in which the two lines connect ONLY at that station. Examples are Queensborough Plaza, Jay Street, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, Myrtle Avenue on weekends and East 180th Street during night hours. Of course, compliance is also enforced on any line with numerous stops at which cross-platform transfers between local and express trains are commonly attempted.
At least it SEEMS that way sometimes-
ROTFLMAO!!!
...DITTO...ROTFLMAO
Brilliant, Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
...DITTO...ROTFLMAO
Brilliant, Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto Ditto Ditto
Good One, btw I'm moving into your old work location in 3 weeks or less and the elevators still don't work.
Howard, you may be entertained to know that BART as of several months back EXPLICITLY broke the scheduled connections between East bay Richmond Fremont trains with trains to/from San Francisco--analagous to riding a G to a transfer point w/a train to Manhattan but then waiting a full headway for it. Previously the two had pulled in in tandem allowing the bulk of riders to transfer to the SF bound train.
What could possibly be the motivation for changing that? I have experienced that connection many times, and it has always impressed me as a "customer-friendly" feature of BART.
In Bangkok, Thailand, the two branches of SkyTrain (Silom and Sukhumvit) always arrive simultaneouly at Central Station, the transfer point between the two lines.
Todd, the connection dated from 1992, when after twenty tears of hit miss connections, someone tried to be user friendly, and succeeded. Now the excuse is that in order to tweak the schedules to extend service to Millbrae (and SFO)m it was "necessary" to degrade service on the Richmond-Berkeley segment. Does anyone believe that in the BAY Area BART could not find a computer programmer who could optimize schedules for both issues? Naturally, the implementation of the service downgrade happened on time, meanwhile the opening of the SFO line is ANOTHER six months or more delayed. So much for mission statements and customer focus.
You just described Murphy's Law!!!
Howard, we must have identical travel schedules.
But you missed one example of holding, often experienced at Columbus Circle. I'm waiting for a SB A. First a D pulls in on the express track, and it's held, and held, and held some more for a connection with the local. I can see the headlights of an A behind it in the tunnel, but the D is in the way. Eventually a B pulls in on the local track. Then the guys in the tower spend five minutes searching for a coin to flip to decide which train to send out first. (The B, probably, since I'm waiting for an A. If I were waiting for a C, the D would pull out first.)
Then there's the additional delay of people running and holding the doors trying to make sure they're on the "next train" out.
The MTA should make its policy clear regarding connections. Right now, it's, "We'll hold for the connection if it pleases us to do so; what the commuters want doesn't matter."
There should be signs clarifying the situation posted in the station...it could read something like, "Trains are not obligated to hold for connections; they do so under the discretion of the dispatcher." ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
agree wholeheartedly that policy should be clear and be posted. IMHO evenings and nights connections should be mandated--conversely in rush, close 'em up and go!
All of the "holds" for this N train were tower holds (there were holding lights on).
A tower must hold a train for schedule, or for connections prvided that:
1. Trains are not to be held for connections during rush hours (I think CTL and 38MT needs to be reminded of this every day).
2. During non rush hours a train may not be held such that it is more than 2 minutes late on headways less than 10 minutes, or 3 minutes late during headways of 10 minutes or more.
Sorry forgot to mention its policy/instruction.
If you guys in New York look west and see smoke bellowing up in the distance you can be almost certain that it is coming from the fire coming out of my mouth, ears and nostrils. I am really getting pissed off reading about this post.
So don't read it! Dont forget, you have the best cars going in the system, the Slants. If you have Slants, you are blessed.
Viva El "N"!
wayne
If you have Slants, you are blessed.
Is that in the cab?
Now, class. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It seems the slants have overwhelmed the N. R68's and R32's a rare sight.
Now if only the N could run express in Manhattan with those slants.
Wow, this rule was broken twice on one trip!
I can understand the intellectual reasons for some of the "holds", but it is ludicrous to hold for the same "R" local twice. Either the Pacific Street or the 59th St. hold should never have happened.
Those holds come from two different towers - Pacific from DeKalb and 59 from Murphy (well, 59 Relay Room right now). They don't know what the other guy did.
Now that we are in the 21st Century, I am hopeful that the technology will be upgraded at some point so that the two towers are not operating indpeendently of each other.
That's poor communication. There's no excuse for an N train, running 2-3 minutes ahead of the next R train and running express in Brooklyn leaving 59th St. at the same time that next R does.
That would piss Fred off so much more. Another reason why it's called the Slum-Beach Line. Think it's bad, try the #4 train running hot on a cold day
Maybe Fred would feel better if he knew the New York version of Monopoly includes both the 4 and N trains among its railroads.
Any other fairly unknown and short lived IND routes besides the ones on this list:
C: 205th St to Hoyt St via Concourse and 8th Ave express (1933 - 1940)
EE: Continental Ave to Hudson Terminal via 8th Ave and Queens Blvd local (1936-1940)
BB: 168th St Washington Heights to 34th St/Herald Sq, via CPW and 6th Ave (1940 to 1967)
AA: 168th St to Hudson Terminal/WTC (1932-1933, 1940-1985...not exactly a short lived route)
This is a question for the super geeks or the old timers among us...LOL
It's interesting how some of these route designations have been resurrected over the years for similar routes:
EE: Used Again from 1967 to 1976, following almost the same route, but via the Broadway BMT in Manhattan. Interestingly the old roll signs were still there on the R1/9s that provided this service initially.
B: Today is from 145th to 34th, via the same route as the old B (minus three stops above 145th).
C: Today is really the same as the old AA extended to Futlon St. Brooklyn as well.
I consider the K designation for the Eighth Ave. local to be the more "short-lived" route than the AA, as far as pure IND trackage-only lines go, even though the route was post-Chrystie and the letter itself is more associated with BMT routes.
You can also include the HH shuttle out in the Rockaways under the "short-lived" routes.
Actually, the HH was just from Hoyt-Schemerhorn to Court in the salad days of the IND. 1946 was the end of that line and route.
The R1-9s used on the EE service in the late 60s-70s had a new route on their roll signs, EE - via Broadway.
Also the HH Court St. Shuttle (1936-46).
-- Ed Sachs
During the 1939-40 World's Fair there was an IND train that ran from Hudson Terminal to the World's Fair via Continental Ave and the Jamaica Yard, then up what's now the route of the Van Wyck Expressway to a terminal near what's now the Long Island Expressway. More info here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair
That would be the EE route. It supplemented the GG, IIRC.
During the 1939-40 World's Fair there was an IND train that ran from Hudson Terminal to the World's Fair via Continental Ave and the Jamaica Yard, then up what's now the route of the Van Wyck Expressway to a terminal near what's now the Long Island Expressway. More info here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair
The World's Fair Route was not a separate service. It was simply an extension of the existing GG Line. Ditto the weekend evening extension of E express service to the Fiar from about 8pm-1am. The EE was gone by this time.
Larry, RedbirdR33
But it was officially a [single] "G", but was signed as [also single] "S"
Although this route never appeared on maps, there was a very short-lived DD marking used during the aftermath of a water main break at 6th Ave. and 23rd St. (IIRC) in late 1962. The C was also resurrected during this time period.
What route did this DD train take?
Cool posting. Where did you find this? I have the actual notice when the Fisk Interlocking project was in effect. Unfortunatley, I do not have a scanner so I could share with you guys here.
Wow. A lot more affective than the annoucements made today, if they are even made. A lot of info, and I bet that was in effect for a relatively short time. The TA head honchos now would rather drop dead than do something of the like during a service disruption.
Who wrote that "we work around the clock on a 24-hour basis" ?
Yogi Berra!
avid
This service plan looks similiar to the one used in 1989 when there was a water main break at 42nd/8th. During that time the A & C ran only to 34th St. The B was sent to 57th St. and the Q replaced the A to 207th St.
Speaking of water main breaks, does anyone remember Niagara Falls at Grand Central:
New York Post Photo
Yup. Early 90's?
Yup, amazingly only about a month or two after the Union Square derailment in 1991. 1991 was not a good year for the Lexington Line. I was a regular user of Lexington at the time, and amazingly both "messes" seemed to be cleaned up in almost a matter of days. They did it fast. Grand Central on the 4/5/6 had water even with the platform edge. I have never seen photos of the 7's platform from then, but it had to be worse than Lexington's platforms. I don't remember how long the 7 was out. Luckily, it happened on a Friday, so they had the whole weekend to work on it.
The September 1989 break at 42nd/8th disrupted service for nearly 3 weeks because there was an extensive and lenghty asbestos cleanup. It did have one benefit: It allowed the R38's to see service on the Brighton for the first and only time in my memory as the extended "Q" route absorbed some of 207th St's fleet.
That must've been one brave photographer.
Was there ever a "true" 6th avenue route (other than the JFK express), that ran straight through West Fourth Street and down 6th Avenue?
Yes. For a time in the 40's and 50's the D train ran to Hudson Terminal, making every stop. The F served the IND in Brooklyn. I think this ended after the Culver connection opened.
What about through 8th Avenue-Houston Street service?
What about through 8th Avenue-Houston Street service?
David: That was provided for by E trains between Jamica and Church Avenue before the Sixth Avenue Line openned. Effective December 15, 1940 the Sixth Avenue Subway opened and F trains took over the Church Avenue service. The Eighth Avenue-Houston Street service was cut back to E trains terminating at Broadway-Lafayette Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The E ran to Church Ave from 1933 to 1940.
The E ran to Church Ave from 1933 to 1940.
Actually I've seen a map from the early days of the IND around 1934, that shows the Church Street Route running from the 8th Avenue line. It's interesting because it's the opposite configuration at Jay Street-Borough Hall than it is today.
It shows:
......Broadway-Nassau
High Street
Jay-St Borough Hall
Bergen Street
Carroll St.....
Interestingly, it shows all the stations between High Street and Church as local stations, so the express route wasn't used then either.
I believe the section from Jay St. to Church Ave opened earlier than the Houston St/Rutger St. line. During this time the E ran to Church, but ran thru Cranberry St.
Too add: I think the section from Jay to Church opened before the Fulton St. subway. In that case, I think it was the A which ran to Church Ave.
Thanks, I was trying to figure that out from the map because the letters are not on the map. Actually a closer look to the bottom of the map says:
Signal A Washington Heights-Brooklyn-8th Ave Express
Signal C Bronx Councourse-8th Ave-Borough Hall Brooklyn Express
Signal CC Bronx Concourse-8th Ave Local
Signal E Queens-8th Ave-All Local Stops
Signal GG Queens-Brooklyn Crosstown Line
And yes, the Fulton Street subway is not there yet. The whole 8th Avenue and Concourse lines were there which ran to Church in the way mentioned in the above post. The 53rd street tunnel is there and ends at Roosevelt, and the Crosstown ends at Nassau St. That's all what was in service at the time of this map.....Interesting.
At the time the IND was a "Work In Progress"
Yup, that's what's so cool about the map!
Was these ever used as a regular service
DD, FF, G, and H ?
G is currently, and H was the Euclid - Rockaway train for a few years before it became an S.
I think there may have been a 1939-40 "G" route to the Worlds Fair. I remember hearing something about it once, but don't know much. It may have run the GG route and skipped some stops.
Actually, Unca Dave settled this question on the page for the IND World's fair, right up on the top of the page ... I was surprised as well, but there it is, right on the bulkhead ...
Check out the World's Fair destination sign. Even 1689 doesn't have that. Or does it?
Don't think it did. Maybe they were all lifted for the 7 train years later. :)
Well, the font looks the same.
The only time I ever saw a World's Fair sign was once on a 7 train after a Mets game in 1970 or 1971. It was an upper side destination sign on the car we were riding in.
Rollsigns come and go. I only wished that the TA had a sense of humor and had HELL as a bulkhead destination sign. Would have kept the noise in the lead car down a bit during the run. :)
Or perhaps Moo.:)
People still would have run to grab the doors :-)
That was another thing about the arnines ... they actually had cutouts in the doors that you could grab. Thank heavens for homeballs though. WHACK! Wile E Coyote style. :)
You don't know just how tempting those cutouts were. I can still see that AA train pulling into 42nd St in May of 1967, cutouts in plain view. I wanted to grab hold of them and pull, but thought better of it.
Wouldn't have done much, and certainly not enough to hold onto to subway surf. They were mighty handy though to get that door that last inch you needed to make the indication fairy smile. :)
Those cutouts on the doors used to drive me crazy. See, in those days I didn't know there were different cars from R1-R9. I thought all the old IND cars were the same. And the lower cars (R-1 etc) didn't have the cutouts. So when a train came without the cutouts I'd think "didn't these doors have small niches?" Then later I'd see a train with the cutouts. The same thing with the single railfan window and the double railfan window. And I'm not sure about this but I think some cars had the wire mesh in the railfan window and some didn't.
The R-1s and R-4s had storm doors with one large window pane. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had split windows on their storm doors.
AFAIK all of the R-1/9s originally had chicken wire embedded in the storm door window glass. So did the R-10s. Replacement window panes did not. The side door windows on the BMT standards had chicken wire, too.
I can't recall if the window kicked out by Sylvester Stallone in Nighthawks had chicken wire or not.
A four car E train? I always thought that picture was of a test train.
Nope, that's all it needed. Now, being born in 1951, I'm certainly NOT going to argue with those who said it was a G, whatever ... all I can offer is the photo, WITHOUT "editorial comment" ... thar she blows. :)
think there may have been a 1939-40 "G" route to the Worlds Fair. I remember hearing something about it once, but don't know much. It may have run the GG route and skipped some stops
Bzuck: There never was a G service. The GG provided service to the 1939-40 World's Fair 24/7 with weekend evening express service by the E.
During the 1964 World's Fair there was a short-lived non-stop service from Hout Street via the Crosstown Line to Roosevelt Avenue. This only lasted from April 22-May 7,1964. These trains carried "S" "SPECIAL" signs. In his history of the Independent Subway Services Bernie Linder relates that" These trains might have carried "G" signs if the roll signs had the reading." Unfortunately this reference to a "G" was carried over into a listing of letter services which appeared in the August 1986 edition of the New York Bulletin of the ERA. The author lists the short-lived 1964 serice as a "G" but then amends it in the footnotes to indicate that trains actually carried "S" signs. Such is the stuff that rapid transit fables are born of. A similar mistatement occured in an otherwise excellent history of the BMT by Joseph Cunningham which stated that the BMT 14 Street-Fulton serice was #17.This was not correct. There never was a #17 and the 14 Street-Fulton trains carried #13 signs which followed the BMT practice of numbering routes by their outer terminals.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes, but I was speaking of the pre-1967 era.
The FF train would run in only one direction.
To go back, you would take the REW train.
Why you.....@$%&*+~#!!!
Actually, the "FF" was ON the R-1/4/6/7 rolls, just was never used.
wayne
So...
A, AA, B, BB, C, CC, D, DD, E, EE, F - existed and used
FF - existed not used
G - didn't exist but used anyway
GG - existed and used
H - neither existed nor used
HH, S, SS - existed and used
I, II, J, JJ etc... in your dreams...
H - neither existed nor used
The H was used in the late 80's as the Rockaway Park (Euclid to RP) shuttle, and also the Round Robin train at that time.
J, K, L, M, N, Q, R, S, T, V, W and Z was used
I, O, P, U, X and Y. were never used.
I think at least X, Y, Q and V will be used when the SAS is open.
Cute, very cute....LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Rim shot!
Wasn't DD used when the water main broke during 6th Av Express construction?
Yes, for about two weeks in December of 1962.
: 205th St to Hoyt St via Concourse and 8th Ave express (1933 - 1940)
EE: Continental Ave to Hudson Terminal via 8th Ave and Queens Blvd local (1936-1940)
BB: 168th St Washington Heights to 34th St/Herald Sq, via CPW and 6th Ave (1940 to 1967)
AA: 168th St to Hudson Terminal/WTC (1932-1933, 1940-1985...not exactly a short lived route)
This is a question for the super geeks or the old timers among us...LOL
Chris: I don't know if I qualify as a super-geek or an old-timer. I think that I'm somewhere in between. But bear this in mind. In about twenty or so years when many of the old-timers on this board have gone on to that "Great Coney Island Yard in the Sky" or the "Branford Trolley Museum" you will be one of the old-timers on this board. Just kidding.
Just to clarify the dates a little bit.
The AA Washington Hts-8 Av Lcl ran from 9/10/32 to 6/30/33 and from 12/15/40 to 5/6/86 went in officially became the K.
The BB Washington Hts-6 Av Lcl ran from 12/15/40 to 11/24/67.
The C Concourse-8 Av Exp ran from 7/1/33 to 10/24/49 and made a brief return from 12/7/62 to 12/24/62 due to a 6 Avenue watermain break. NOTE THAT THE 1962 VERSION ACTUALLY TERMINATED AT 34 ST-SIXTH AV.
The DD Concourse-6 Av Lcl ran from 12/7/62 to 12/24/62 due to a 6 Avenue watermain break. NOTE HOWEVER THAT THE SERVICE ACTUALLY RAN VIA 8 AVENUE BETWEEN 59 ST AND WEST 4 STREET. (Apologies for caps)
The EE Queens-8 Avenue Lcl had a very short existence from 4/24/37 to 7/1/37. This displaces the NX as the regular route with the shortest service history.
The FF as you know never ran.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The FF as you know never ran.
Or they called it the V train...
Then of course, there was the shuttle between Hoyt/Scherm and Court/Scherm. It was served by the HH from 1936 to '46, a full ten years before IND service to the Rockaways revived that designation for the off-hour shuttles.
The line was supposed to extend west past Court/Schermerhorn under a river tube that was supposed to connect to (variously, depending on what you read or who you talk to) the BMT at Whitehall or the stub at Chambers where the E terminates. Like many Second System projects, WWII kept it from being reality. So when it became apparent that the stub to Court Street would remain a stub, service was discontinued.
And 30 years later, the Transit Museum was born.
The line was supposed to extend west past Court/Schermerhorn under a river tube that was supposed to connect to (variously, depending on what you read or who you talk to) the BMT at Whitehall or the stub at Chambers where the E terminates.
Is this actually documented anywhere?
A permanent stub fits in line perfectly with the IND's policy of not allowing outer borough locals to cross the East River. If service followed the tracks, local passengers would have had to transfer at Hoyt, Bergen, or Queens Plaza to continue into Manhattan.
Once in a while I set my R4 roll sign to an imaginary HH from Euclid to Court. Court is there as a top destination, but Schermerhon is not. I wonder when the shuttle ran, what the signs looked like.
That looks to me like the original plan.
Maybe the run should be from 76th Street to Court.
I though we got away from any 76th st threads for awhile. Guess 76th Street is back from the dead in Subtalk.
Free transfer to the Twilight Zone - where all MetroCards and City Tickets are accepted, but you never know where the train will let you off.
DOO-A-DOO DOO-A-DOO- DEED-A-DEE, DEED-A-DEE, BAM BOM BOM BOMMMM
Free transfer to the Twilight Zone - where all MetroCards and City Tickets are accepted, but you never know where the train will let you off.
heh, or in what decade....don't forget that diehard railfan that was stuck in the same spot in both the 1940's and 1970's 76th street station photos.
OK OK
I only mentioned 76th st as a joke.
Sorry I opened it up again.
The part of the run from Court to Euclid is true though.
I only mentioned 76th st as a joke.
Sorry I opened it up again.
Why are you sorry, we were joking! 76th street is always good for a good laugh!
"but you never know where the train will let you off."
Should have that as IF the train will let you off.
IT'S ALIVE!
IIRC, on R1-9 roll signs, the lower destination which were removed
from the curtain included: Jay Street, Borough Hall; Hoyt Street,
Brooklyn; Fulton~Rockaway Avenue & Fulton~Bway East New York.
8-) Sparky
Ah!
So at the time the shuttle was running they had proper signs.
I wonder why they did not remove the upper destination Court St?
^^^"So at the time the shuttle was running they had proper signs."^^^
Well, Hoyt Street destination was used by the C-8th Avenue Concourse Express as its Southern terminal also.
^^^"I wonder why they did not remove the upper destination Court St?"^^^
Still could be used as a Northern terminal if the need arose. IMO.
Other destinations on Northen curtains that come to mind are the
169th St ~ Jamaica changed over to 179th St ~ Jamiaca. Two obscure
destinations, hard to find: Parsons Blvd ~ Jamaica or Union Turnpike ~
Kew Gardens.
Those I remember from turning handles as a young lad.
8-) Sparky
I saw a destination curtain complete with mechanism at Cityana gallery some 25 years ago that included a Queens - Kew Gardens sign. Shoulda grabbed it.:(
There are some rare earlier destination curtains for arnines.
The one that surprised me on 1689 was "Broad Channel" and IIRC
it doesn't have "Wavecrest". That last one was on all the
Thunderbirds in service when they went to the ocean. >GG<
"Wavecrest" is also another short lived IND destination.
8-)Sparky
Word ... those curtains didn't LAST very long in reality ... some DID as long as they were drilled into the middle and LEFT there for many years. I had a number of them rip on the railroad in Arnines, and about the best I could offer more often that not was three bulbs through a smoky glass window ... and they'd GET replaced. I can imagine that the expense of roll replacements (and what it TOOK to get into the bulkheads) resulted in the "we'll take flipdots even if no one can SEE them" metality ...
Infant mortality rates could get severe - after all, all it really took in ROAD service was for a "crankback" to get skewed, put the cloth in contact with the bulbs, and voila. On the rails, I had TWO rollsigns go up in flames in the bulkhead that I actually had to grab the fire extinguishers (useless) and make them schvitz on the floor and not TOUCH the flames ... in BOTH situations, I had to put out the fire with my damned COAT. :(
I think it's safe to say that some of the R-10 curtains probably had frozen crank handles after having been set to A for so long.
Is there anything holding those mechanisms in place in the bulkheads? It seems that one of 1689's front destination curtains is firmly in place while the other is loose and flopping around.
They were designed to hang on a bulkhead, the one that was loose had apparently been lifted and just fell off its mounts I would expect. I didn't want to mess with it though for fear of getting the fabric getting caught on the hooks and possibly damaging it or I would have done the lift, spot and drop for it. Museum pieces are far to precious to mess with unless you're absolutely sure of what you're doing and can see it. I opted to just leave it alone.
That was the one with the stiff crank handle, too. Every other sign on that car cranked very easily.
That may have had something to do with why it leaped off the bulkhead. I remember them having a tendency to do that, you'd write them up on the defect sheet and hope someone read it at least. :)
Gotta squirt some penetrating oil on the crank handle and gears.
I'm sure there's an approved practicum. Actually, I'm surprised that the transfer gear wasn't just REMOVED so it wouldn't turn at all (in the interest of preservation) ... so I certainly didn't mind that it was "fussy" ... but then you know me now, roll signs ain't all that big a thing to me ... had other things to play with. :)
^^^"I'm surprised that the transfer gear wasn't just REMOVED so it wouldn't turn at all (in the interest of preservation) ..."^^^
Then the disbuting would commence as to what it should be singed as.
For the limited times its accesible to the foamers, we'll let them
have their jollies and crank the sign. We are a living museum, with
live exbits, not stuffed & mounted. >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's exactly what they did to the signs on the cars at the Transit Museum - removed the transfer gears. You can turn the crank handle all you want and nothing happens.
Yeah, see your point and am quite IMPRESSED by it - tells me you guys have some spares squirreled away or a master seamstress on call. :)
Besides, we know the drill should a lockout ever be necessary - GG to FOREST HILLS on one end, A on the other. No biggie. If she's charged and ready to go, I'll take ANY board job. Heh.
A to Wash. Hts - 207th St., that is.:)
It's still strange to see an R-1/9 signed as an A. Didn't see too many of them.
I can't believe all 400 R10's were exclusively on the A line before 1967.
Well, 30 of them did run on the Eastern Division for a few years in the mid-50s. Karl B remembers seeing them there.
Other than that, the entire Thundering Herd was the exclusive domain of the A for years. After Chrystie St. a trainset or two could be found on the B, CC, and HH, but until 1977, the R-10s were still the mainstay on the A.
^^^"GG to FOREST HILLS on one end, A on the other."^^^
Naw, won't have the GG on her, I don't have that type of influence at BERA. Besides, one of 1689s mentors, whom replaced a/o repaired the lower destination sign on the west end of the car last spring, likes it signed as an S~Special to Aqueduct.
8-) Sparky
Yipe! Well, she'll always be acceptable as a GG in my book. They ran there. Funny though how many of them DID end up doing the "premium run" to the track. You'd think the TA would have put something shiny on THAT run for the extra shekel. But as you know, I really don't care about the roll signs myself, their position doesn't affect brake cylinder or cam rollout. :)
You always had a thing for a green-green marker light setting, though.:)
Gotta show your colors. It's a Noo Yawk thing. :)
^^^"You always had a thing for a green-green marker light setting, though.:)"^^^
Hey Bronx Boy, yaw gotta belive he had the markers right for the
Lex-Woodlawn Express on the Low Vs. Had a squezze in the Bronx
in my youth, so learned to identify the Woodlawns on Lex. >GG<
8-) Sparky
And green-green lasted right up to the end for markers over yonder until they went dark for good. Green green was reserved for the classiest of trains. :)
(Selkirk runs for cover)
Such as this:
Or this:
Or even this:
The film must have been damaged in that last pic.
Heh. Nah, I can tell by the smoke, that was my follower. :)
Also, that looks like my buddy Ben in the middle picture there - he was often my LEADER ...
The film must have been damaged in that last pic.
No, it's called an E-6 (or its predecessors E-2, E-3, and E-4 - don't think there was an E-5) process film after a few years of storage. Lots of folks loved Anscochrome and Ektachrome (and now also Fuji Velvia) but the price you pay for those saturated colors and flat emulsion is the instability of the color dyes. Kodachrome (process K-14) is unique in that it doesn't suffer from that problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Steve,
I got your message, green & green for Northbound D to 205th Street.
Funny thing though, I used the 'D' as an alternate to the Lex-Woodlawn
for the trip to Da Bronx, but never paid attention to marker lights,
with the R 1~38 type Route & Destination in the bulkhead. I was breed
on the IND >GG<, so what can I tell yaw.
8-) Sparky
Green/green for center track express in the Bronx, Green/white for local. Only time I ever CARED about my bulkhead markers since the last thing I wanted was to be thrown to the local tracks and be late at my terminal no matter HOW I wrapped it. :)
Sometimes I even played "Tower Roulette" by taking the "first local" and setting Green/green to see if I'd get my wish. Often did become an "extra" on the express.
Oy, you was bad on the road. Pity, the geese, who thought they was
on the local only to be expressed. >CC, Local< >D, Express peak
direction<
8-) Sparky
I had a job number. When I left the terminal, under the approval of the TMO, I was marked for "I am what I yam" ... if the railroad laid down and I got to 145th late, I wasn't about to be made even LATER because I arrived there after changeover time. But yeah, I was a kibbitzer - like any other good union person who'd had more than enough of their daily loaf of "organic matter" I'd try to pull what I could. :)
Being ON TIME is what matters, scwoo the geese. T'was MTA policy, let 'em write their congressfish. :(
I never paid any attention marker lights, either, much to my regret. Not until 1984, when I returned for the first time in four years. Then I started writing down every combination I saw whether it was correct or not. On one occasion, I was writing down a green-white setting on a D train of R-32s at 125th St. and the T/O looked at me as if to say what the $#$@$ are you doing. When I told him, he said they should be correct. IIRC I rode on that train to the Bronx, and it ran express along the Concourse line. Of course, by then the punch board was set up at the northern end of the station, and the T/O punched for the D Express lineup.
He was lined up for Concourse local if it was a northbound. Good thing nobody opened the bay window and LOOKED. :)
Keep in mind that marker light settings were changed in 1976. It's quite possible that the green-green combination may not have been used anymore afterwards. I'm not sure if anyone was paying attention to marker lights anymore by 1984. OTOH IRT trains were still sporting proper combinations then; this red-red business had not yet started.
As far as I know, they didn't mess with the D. But them pesky punches (the REAL reason for that yellow wood by the door) had taken over the system even before I ran the rails. :)
So you had to punch for the D express lineup at 125th then, correct? I wonder what would have happened if you would had done that during non-rush hours, say on a weekend. Hypothetically speaking. No dice, probably.
Definitely no dice ... remember also at the time that there was the CC running local when mine ran express. Since my last round trip was the start of the rush hour zone, I'd often be the last northbound express or close to it. The punch there was to determine if you were an A or a D ...
Uh John, I'm not from New York.:)
Whoops, posted to the wrong responder, the message was for Selkirk.
O.K., Jersey Guy. >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's OK - they're catching on here ... that like Heypaul/Avid, Steve/Selkirk ARE one and the same. :)
Well, let them think what they want, but I've eyeballed three of the
four, 'taint the same person. Haven't had the pleasure of meeting
Avid, though I been told he was lurking at Branford in October. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Yep ... that makes it four for four. But still, like 76th Street, some legends are like that pink bunny ... :)
Wait a minute. Who says we're one and the same?
I do. Neener-neener ... gotta show them da PROFF ... both of us in the same place at the same time. :)
You can look on my webpage. The Subtalk Day pics are still there.
We have two things in common:
1. We're both Catholic.
2. We both love the R-1/9s.
Other than that.....
Heh. That's how rumors get started. :)
Well, here's my take:
I'm still single. You're happily married.
I never lived in New York. You were born and raised in the Bronx.
I never worked for the TA. You did.
I was born in 1956. You were born in 1951.
Moo.
Works for me, just slap me silly with maroon paint and I'm set to go. :)
Besides, Nancy knows we're not one and the same.:)
Nice try. I'm a native Hoosier, although I did live in Jersey for 6 years.
Whatever, turns you on. You just ain't a Brooklynite! Need a passport to come here. >GG<
;-) ~ Sparky
Why, soitanly!:)
No problem. I've got one of those.:)
Does anyone know how long it will be before all the redbirds are taken out of service?
Summertime for the mainlines. Flushing's redbirds should last somewhat longer.
What about the WF series?
My magic ball say the 150 R-33's on the 4 and 5 should be gone by summer, the R-36's on the 7 could be gone by sometime in 2004.
Then the ML ones should be cascaded to the Flushing. They are in better shape.
The WF series-R 36 and R 33S should be on the 7 line for at least another 4-5 years.
I say once you see R62s going from the 4 to the 3, then you will see R62As going from the 1/3/9 to the 7 and that will be very soon.
R142 1106-1110 have arrived from Bombardier. Once that whole order arrives, The Redbirds will be gone from the 4 for good-I say by July.
The 7 will take a bit longer as there are over 200 redbirds still left on that line-approximately 150 of them are GE Cars.
I say by this year's end, ALL OF THE REDBIRDS will be retired. :(
I hope they keep a few around just in case they need them.
(r142/r142a pull apart or for some similar instance). But I doubt that will happen.
#9000 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
rode a bird on the 5 last friday and it had a bad wheel flat..it was so noisy i had to switch cars..i guess there are no plans to rebuild those trucks anymore..otherwise..carbodies looked pretty good..didn't get the numbers though.
I was in car 92xx on the 4 today. Still moved with great speed on express tracks, although the doors could use some coats of paint.
Email me please, my hard drive was wiped out, lost your addy.
Sorry, you'll have to e-mail me. I don't have my subtalk e-mail list.
What is the problem. a relative tells me no service going uptown on the 1 or 2.
AMI
Construction accident
See other posts
See other posts
See other posts
Hillside Ave. in Queens is crazy during rush hour, especially from Sutphin Blvd. going eastwards. Who does one write to in order to get the F line extended past 179th Street to say, Springfield Blvd? There are many buses full to the walls with people tryng to get to and from work every day - how come the folks in charge do not see this? I bet that there are some other places in Gotham that are screaming for extended subway service - let me hear from you guys out there. The transfer from bus to subway or vice versa can be real bad during a storm, especially in the winter months. How do we let them know what is needed?
Hasn't that been yelled for 50 years?
I always said connecting Queens Blvd to the Archer Ave. line was a mistake. My fantasy has always been using the Montauk LIRR ROW from the 63rd. St tunnel to Jamaica Center, completely bypassing Queens Blvd.
"I always said connecting Queens Blvd to the Archer Ave. line was a mistake."
That was not a mistake. It was actually an outstanding move and improved the utility of the Queens Blvd. corridor (and also allowed north-south movement using the J and E subways. I'm sorry that the E and J were not extended further, however. But one day that may happen.
"My fantasy has always been using the Montauk LIRR ROW from the 63rd. St tunnel to Jamaica Center, completely bypassing Queens Blvd. "
That's a great idea (and MTA thought about it too), and should have been done (or some variation of it) in addition to what they actually did.
That's a great idea (and MTA thought about it too), and should have been done (or some variation of it) in addition to what they actually did.
Too bad Geraldine Ferraro killed the plan when she was in Congress.
Pandering to the bigots...
Former Senator D'Amato deserves a lot of credit here also. He spoke at the QSOS public hearing in 1984, and said that he would cut off funding if the Montauk Options were adopted. It's in the minutes.
I don't view the connection from Archer Ave to Queens Blvd. as ideal. Busy service on this corridor means only a fraction of the capacity can be dedicated to Archer (the rest to 179th St). A Montaulk/Archer Ave. line could dedicate it's entire capacity to Archer Ave. And 179th St could have the express service it needs (2 lines) and had from 1950 to 1988.
"I don't view the connection from Archer Ave to Queens Blvd. as ideal."
Ideal would have been a lot more total track capacity in the area, as you correctly point out.
"Busy service on this corridor means only a fraction of the capacity can be dedicated to Archer (the rest to 179th St)."
Your description is misleading (actually, inaccurate!). There is substantial capacity present at Archer on both levels; meanwhile, the F service east of Van Wyck is very adequate to handle ridership at those stations. And people getting off at Forest Hills or Kew Gardens don't really care one way or the other.
Passengers looking for a way to travel north/south found it. There are people using the E and J for this purpose.
"A Montaulk/Archer Ave. line could dedicate it's entire capacity to Archer Ave."
Agreed. Find the money and build it. I told you I like your idea.
"And 179th St could have the express service it needs (2 lines) and had from 1950 to 1988."
A non-issue in reality. The time savings represented by an express east of Van Wyck is minimal, and the F handles current demand there very well. Now, if you extended the Hillside Avenue line a couple of miles further east with four new stations, you may have a point.
Additionally, a sizable group of passengers did appreciate being able to travel directly to Jamaica Hospital and the LIRR station. When in medical training in NY, I met a lot of folks who rode the subway to their Jamaica Hospital clinics.
They should extend the IRT Corona-Flushing Line to Bayside and have a branch to College Point. Extend the IND Queens Line to the Nassau County border. Extend the BMT Astoria Line to LaGuardia. Build a connecting line from the IND Queens Line to the Rockaways and have a extention from the Rockaway branch to JFK. Extend to Fulton St. line to as close to the Nassau county border as possible. Also build a connection from College Point to the Bronx and connect that line with the IRT White Plains Road line in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Where were you when MTA needed you?
Unfortunately I wasn't born until 1963. Those are not the only lines that I would want. There should be a connection between the IRT Westchester Ave., White Plains Road "No. 2" line in the Bronx and the IRT Pelham line "No. 6" in the Bronx. The connection would be between the Simpson St. station on the Westchester Ave. Line "No. 2" and the the Whitlock Avenue station on the Pelham "No. 6" line. I would have a Trans-Bronx subway Line Between 207th St. in Manhattan to Pelham Bay Park. I would extend the IND Concourse Line "D train" along Burke Ave. and then have it go along Boston Rd. to Ropes Ave. immediately south of the Westchester County Line. As a matter of fact I might have one subway line go into Westchester County. The IRT White Plains Road Line I would extend north of 241st St. into Mount Vernon. I would possibly extend the IRT Jerome Ave. Line into he Bronx all the way to White Plains along Central Park Avenue and have a joint operation between the MTA and Westchester county and enhance public transportation along Central Park Avenue. I would definitely build a 2nd Ave. subway in Manhattan. I would also build a direct connection from SIRT in Staten Island to Manhattan and Brooklyn via tunnels. There are other things that I would do to.
#3 West End Jeff
$$$$$$$$?
The 1939 "dream plan", as Stan Fischler writes in "The Subway", was to have what is today the F line in Queens run all the way to Little Neck Pkwy on the Nassau/Queens border. The line was to have used Hillside all the way from Queens Blvd. to the end. Likely stops east of 179 might have been:
188 St.(F)
191 St.(F)
Francis Lewis Blvd.(F & Express)
212 St.(F)
Springfield Blvd.(F)
Winchester Blvd.(F & Express)
Cross Island Pkwy.(F)
252 St.(F)
260 St.(F)
Little Neck Pkwy.(Term.)
Now if they'd only followed through when they built out to 179 St. in 1950!
In my humble opinion...The two big needs in New York for subway service are:
1. Another east side line eg. Second Ave.
2. A line through Queens, all the way east to Nassau County, hopefully with a connection at the end to the LIRR.
3 (extra) It would not hurt to have a line to NJ such as the L or 7 as well as a midtown line straight from the BMT eastern division without a transfer needed.
"3 (extra) It would not hurt to have a line to NJ such as the L or 7 as well as a midtown line straight from the BMT eastern division without a transfer needed."
Well you can forget these first two proposals, and you have the part of the Chrystie St. connection that hooks up to the Broadway El.
Only one problem with that, Little Neck Parkway comes at about 254th Street, which is between 252nd and 260th. Station should be at 249th Street. Cross Island Pkwy should read COMMONWEALTH BVLD (sic) in fact, you can dispense with 249th Street, go straight to LNP and terminate the locals two stops beyond at 267th Street. Only problem with that is parking.
191st Street should read 197th Street.
wayne
I stand corrected! Thanks.
Write to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue, NY NY 10017
Send a copy of your letter to:
Hon. Helen Marshall
Queens Borough President
120-55 Queens Blvd.
Kew Gardens NY 11424
THANKS! Who knows what will get done?
My friend, every politician, planner, and NYCT bureaucrat knows where new lines are needed throughout the City of New York. The only "problem" is finding the money to do it. Even with the feds picking up 90% of the tab, the city and state will still say that they can't afford it. Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods. And that's the reality.
Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods.
Hmmm... ostracism anyone? At least that way the NIMBYs will stop clogging up the roads and subways without allowing anything to be done about it.
(Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods.)
True in Maspeth, but are there NIMBY's in SE Queens or along Hillside Ave? I thought the people and politicians there would love a subway extension.
Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats.
"Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats. "
Not with modern construction methods. Granted, a TBM might not be useable for extending the F. But if you take enough care, even cut and cover can be done in a way to limit disruption.
You have to communicate with the neighborhood - and if you do disrupt something, you have to restore it to just like it was.
>>>>Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats. <<<
Except for the "dirt being tracked into buildings" all of these things exsist already.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats."
It seems preferable to being packt like sardines in a crushd tin box, at least to me. It is unfortunately also true that the NIMBY opposition to various projects, since time out of mind really, has had even some measure of success. The NIMBYs must be well organized; perhaps it is time for the forces of progress to similarly unite when things arrive in the coming years and are threatened by nothing more than avariciousness (there may well be good objections to some proposals, but the fact that , say, more extermination might be called for in order to better the lives of everyone and raise the quality of living for all can hardly serve as legitimate grounds to oppose rail projects)?
By the way, this is my first post here; I've been lurking in the shadows for some time, but I thought I should add that this is a lovely little corner of the web here.
Welcome, Jon... those of us who have been around since the beginning, or close to it, of this space agree... it is a lovely little corner of the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they said the same thing with the WATER TUNNEL 3 constuction....but thats being dug under their very feet....
They would, to a point.
You could extend the F line up Hillside Av into the 200's without causing a fuss. The closer you get t Glen Oaks, though, the more NIMBY you might run into.
But that's OK. Extending the F by two miles and adding 4 new stations would still be a great thing.
After 179th Street:
North of this station there are eight storage tracks, four on each of two levels, which continue as far as 184th Street.
IND Ghosts:
A subway station located below 212th Street in Queens Village. Supposedly, there are skylights on the sidewalk along 212th St and Jamaica Avenue, and a subway tunnel along 73rd Ave. right to Alley Pond Park.
Hillside Avenue widens out considerably at Springfield Boulevard in Queens Village, with service roads and main roads a la Queens Boulevard. It's said that this was a provision for a new eastern terminal for the IND, and the 1929 plan does have trains running to Springfield Boulevard.
Just FYI in case some haven't seen this.
But I 110% agree about extending the line.
North of this station there are eight storage tracks, four on each of two levels, which continue as far as 184th Street. "
There appears to be disagreement about whether the layups end at 182 or 184 street. Nonetheless, it would begreat to extend one level a couple of miles and establish some new stations.
We would then need to add a little rolling stock to the F.
Nonetheless, it would begreat to extend one level a couple of miles and establish some new stations.
Wouldn't that add more passengers to the already maxed out Queens Blvd Express?
What would make the Hillside Av line more extendible outwards would be to attach either the local or the express to a new subway on Metropolitan Avenue, either becoming a branch of the 14th St line or an extension of the M Train.
"Wouldn't that add more passengers to the already maxed out Queens Blvd Express?"
Yes, but the effect would be that more passengers would be redistributed to the V train, which, while it already has been useful, has room. Passengers boarding east of Union Turnpike would not be inconvenienced.
"What would make the Hillside Av line more extendible outwards would be to attach either the local or the express to a new subway on Metropolitan Avenue, either becoming a branch of the 14th St line or an extension of the M Train. "
That's a nice idea, but extending the Hillside Av line first would add a lot of advocates to your plan (read: political support), whereas now you might have NIMBY trouble you can't overcome.
"IND Ghosts:
A subway station located below 212th Street in Queens Village. Supposedly, there are skylights on the sidewalk along 212th St and Jamaica Avenue, and a subway tunnel along 73rd Ave. right to Alley Pond Park.
Hillside Avenue widens out considerably at Springfield Boulevard in Queens Village, with service roads and main roads a la Queens Boulevard. It's said that this was a provision for a new eastern terminal for the IND, and the 1929 plan does have trains running to Springfield Boulevard. "
I've seen it on the main site; thanks for the reminder, though. Has anyone ever checked these spots out?
I'd not bother to extend the Hillside Avenue Line, since it is already running to capacity.
Instead, I'd build my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
It features all new river crossings, a new Manhattan trunk line, and HIGH SPEED express services (Read 80 mph).
Elias
"I'd not bother to extend the Hillside Avenue Line, since it is already running to capacity.
That is a point of concern, but not a reason not to extend the line. Space isn't a huge problem at the 179 St end. If the trains fill up as expected, more passengers starting at Forest Hills would choose to then fill up the V train.
Extending the F train is cost-effective.
And now to your fantasy world.
"Instead, I'd build my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
It features all new river crossings, a new Manhattan trunk line, and HIGH SPEED express services (Read 80 mph). "
I commend you for your creativity.
Looking at the 1978 map on this site, Broadway in Manhattan has only a QB (Brighton to 57th, presumably only weekdays), an N (Sea Beach or Whitehall to 57th or Continental) and an RR (95th to Astoria).
On weekends, was there really only the N express via bridge and the R local via tunnel?
That sounds like an awful level of service!
Yes. Outside of a few QB trains in the peak direction on the express and a handful of N specials to Whitehall St. on the local the N and RR were the only trains servicing the Broadway BMT at all times from 1976 to 1986!
There was an oddity on the Broadway BMT during this time. All N trains, either normal runs or the specials to Whitehall St made all local stops from 57th St. to Canal St, downtown in the AM, uptown in the PM. At this time there was no Broadway express service in these directions at these times. Talk about crappy service!
When the N was running express, it skipped 49th St. and made the switchover just south of 57th St. At least that was the case once when I rode on a midday n/b N once back then.
There was a construction accident at Times Square
Suspension in all westside 1,2,3,7, GCT Shuttle, N/R/W at TSQ
IRT:
1 Terminates at 96 or 137
3 Train is gone
Brooklyn bound 2 and bronx 2 routed via 5
7 train service terminated at GCT
S terminated all together
Not sure about N/R/W, can't pick up BMT transmissions. Only heard what control center had to say.
OK, alternate 1's from VCP will be terminated at 137 while the others will be turned at 96. 3's are shuttling from 148 to 135, 3's from New Lots going to 148 will be turned at Chambers. Third rail shut off on westside IRT from 34st-50st. Again, reason is construction accident. More information as I get it.
Oh, and of course the only only mention on 1010 or 880 was about how th accident was affecting traffic.
I did hear about it around 5:30pm, but since they made no mention of subway service interruptions, I throught it was minor. Still, usually when there's any type of construction accident, they suspend subway service in the area.
What kind of accident? Was anyone hurt?
An the cable of an elevator thats used by construction workers of a building under construction snapped.That's all I heard,no mention if anyone was hurt or not.
What a mess, I hope no one was hurt.
I was just in that area around 4:30pm, transferred from a packed 2 to a 7 express at Times Square, wow, i sure got lucky.
No wonder why i heard some much babble on the T/O's radio on the way back to Flushing.
At the time of your post, I was en route from 53/Lex to 86 between Amsterdam and Columbus. I decided to IND it the whole way, though since I had to change at Columbus Circle to a local, I could have gone upstairs instead -- I'm glad I didn't try! The C I caught was unusually crowded, and now I know why.
About two hours earlier, I was waiting at 86/Broadway when a 5 train ("7 AV EXPRESS") went by on the express track. Any idea what happened there? If I hadn't been in a rush, I would have gotten off at 72 and waited for an R-33 set, now otherwise extinct on the West Side.
There was also something going on in Queens. While waiting at 53/Lex, I heard an announcement: "After an earlier incident at Steinway Street, local trains are now running. Please be patient." Poor R had problems in two places!
I first heard it at 34 ST / 6Ave from a C/R's radio on the D Train. Control was saying #1 service suspended from 96 St to Chambers #2 service sent down the Lex Line. #3 NO service between 96 St and Chambers. # 7 no service between Times SQ and Grand Central. No N,Q,W service between Queensboro Plaza and Canal Street. R trains replaced V Train service.
Anyway I needed to get to Queens from 34 St so I took the V train since it just happen to 74 Street where I got the #7 to Main St. Then on the return trip I needed to get back to my car parked at 242 St/ Bway that was a long trip. I took the #7 to Grand Central then got on the #6 to 51 St. Then took the E train to 7 Ave and got on a D Train to 59 Street. Now I took the A train to 168 Street where I had a 15 Minute wait for the Uptown #1 train. It was plugged by a work train. It was a long day for riding the rails I had a friend with me she never rode on the Subways so I wanted to show her the diffrent lines are areas in NYC. It just seemed like everything got in our way today plus I was on a Uptown W train at Bay 50th at 3:30 those school kids are bad we spent 5 Minutes in the station because of door holding.
Was 7 express service suspended as well? Usually if they have to short turn at Grand Central (I guess they use the 1st ave crossovers)they cant run trains as frequently. Though I think they should run the expresses anyway, since it is usually chaos when there is no express service on a weekday at anytime.
YEP.I was there yesterday,at 42nd/8th ave... and everything was shut down.No N/Q/R/W/1/2/3/7 or S. R trains were running on the 8th ave line,and V trains stoped running from Queens to Manhattan. Everything was screwed up....
Yes there was no #7 Express service and at Main Street one 1 of every 2 trains was in service. I would have to say at 7:20 when I was at Main street the headway had to be 10 Minutes. The #7 was not the line to be on.
Just wondering, Has service resumed?
Here is the story from the Times:
http:www.nytimes.com/2003/03/05/nyregion/05COLL.html
Pardon me. I don't know where the two slashes went. Story on construction accident from the Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/05/nyregion/05COLL.html
A friendly word of advice to young Mr. Parker (Clayton):
Do not ever state that you heard something over the scanner.
In doing so you have violated several NYS laws and at least one Federal law.
This is a matter that has been discussed a number of times here on SubTalk. Scanner transmissions are to be treated as privileged information. You are not supposed to repeat what you have heard.
If you want to pass on information, then at least don't say the word scanner.
Whoops...sorry bout that.
Here's something you're guaranteed not to care about. I was leafing through Alan Lind's book "From Horsecars to Streamliners" (about St. Louis Car Company), as I am wont to do, and I came across an illustration on p249 of a St. Louis #46 truck known as the "DuPont" type. Interestingly, at the Connecticut Trolley Museum in Warehouse Point, CT, is Nassau Electric Railway single-truck streetcar #169 (later BMT work car #83), which the CTM website says has a DuPont truck. Does anyone know whether this is actually a St. Louis #46? Comparing photos they look pretty similar, but have significant differences like springing over the journal boxes. I'm just not sure, and would appreciate word from someone who knows about such things. Thanks.
...well, I TOLD you that you wouldn't care. :-)
Frank Hicks
Yeah, that is a very obscure question. I've always wondered
about the "DuPont" truck, since I've never heard of such a thing.
The car was made by SLCC, so it makes sense that it is a St. Louis
truck beneath. Where do you have a picture of it?
There are a couple of photos of the car at:
http://www.ceraonline.org/collection/car169.htm
They're pretty interesting; an unloading shot from when CTM acquired the car (this doesn't show the truck), and a roster shot that has a good view of the car. Just within the past month CTM was able to put their "complete/updated" website back online - it still hadn't fully recovered from being hacked last year.
Frank Hicks
Their web site wasn't "hacked". The original web administrator
left the organization and took the passwords with him. The web
site was unmaintained and eventually the hosting company made
an error and pointed it to somebody else's site. Some time later,
the new webmaster took over and re-created the original site content
on another server.
"The original web administrator left the organization and took the passwords with him."
Oops. I know this sort of thing is not uncommon with restoration projects, but I can't think of any other instances of it happening with a museum's website. Well, I'll say this - whoever the new webmaster is has done a very nice job of rebuilding the CTM site.
Frank Hicks
This morning there was no local service o the 6 between 42 and 125,
They said it was due to "police action"
Happens all the time. This happens to be my home station as well. What a small world, huh?
This morning there was no local service o the 6 between 42 and 125,
They said it was due to "police action" What happened?
7166-70 have arrived on the property despite the problems encountered at Fresh Pond earlier in the day. It's only 8:30, aren't they early tonight?
-Stef
[ 8:35 PM] 020101 NYC BULLETIN
(TIMES SQUARE) +POLICE ACTIVITY+ HAS 7TH AVE +STILL CLOSED+ 42ND ST TO 40TH ST. CONSTRUCTION ELEVATOR INCIDENT)... EXPECT DELAYS ON ALL CITY BUSES THROUGH TIME SQUARE.
I guess an elevator plunged. I hope there are no deaths.
I'm guessing the power's out there too - tried to access the NYCDOT cameras at 42 and 8, 46 and BWay and 42 and BWay and they ain't lit. Nada. Sure do hope nobody was below it.
And AS USUAL, not a PEEP out of CNN or the others - didn't happen in Atlanta. :(
Not even anything on CBS, NY1, or WINS, which are actually in NYC.
They all depend on CNN apparently. wcbs880.com has it in the "traffic report" section but apparently "metrocommute" went awol. It's like Todd Glickman's station depending on the Weather Channel (Atlanta also) ... so you learn to fend for yourself and get your OWN data. There's THREE NYCDOT cameras in the affected area that should be able to see it, but the whole shooting match is down for the count.
But no surprise it wouldn't be covered. After all, Connie Chunk is off on some anti-aging creme. That's FAR more important. Maybe Larry King. Nah. :)
At 10:22, the S/B camera at 46/B'way is showing a very empty Times Sq.
I've been told that an elevator on a building under construction at 41st Street and Seventh Avenue fell 53 stories, and that its counterweight is in a precarious position and in danger of falling. If it does fall, they fear it might crash through the street and into the subway, so they suspended service.
We subtalkers should dispatch HeyPaul to the scene!!
Saw this film (the opening) on VH1 some time ago and has a lenghty scene with LIRR M-1s (or M-3s ?)somewhere along the Babylon or Ronkonoma branch. Show moring commuters about to board their M-1's (still with their blue stripe).
Was the best scene in the whole movie. The rest was a snoozer. Much more worthy movies are: "The Warriors, French Connection, and The Taking of Pelham 123". Even "Nighthawks" with Sly Stallone has a cool scene chasing the bomber through the 63 St tunnel while under construction and on a train of R1-9's. Earlier in the movie, you see R36 cars in World's Fair colors.
And let's not forget "Seven-Ups" complete with many shots of Bronx els including those damned R12's on the third avenue el (it's running now on FMC) ...
You really are not fond of the IRT, aren't you Unca Selkirk?
Actually, I've always been ambivalent. Growing up in the Bronx as I did, the IRT was like roaches. Everywhere. With just ONE 10 foot wide "stretch limo" line, IND was a bit special. My despising of the R12's is solely because they replaced the precious LoV's on the third avenue el and signalled the demise of my OWN favorite line. And they were in that horrid "war between the states" color scheme on top of the other insult of the LoV's going away.
But no, I don't despise the IRT ... it was just so ubiquitous that you tended to ignore it being there. I had a REAL love of the LoV's though - I had to transfer it to the Arnines while THEY lasted. But THAT'S my malfunction there. :)
I gotcha there. I kinda wish I was around to ride the ol' Third Ave El. But I wasn't born until 1977, but I always enjoy hearing stories from family and co-workers who used to ride or live next to the el. One co-worker said that the South Bronx area where he grew up was better when the el was up. He mentioned things had gone bad when it closed. Maybe the TA should have just rebuilt it and maybe today, it would probably still be running. I hate the idea of the BX55 replacing a dignified train line. I felt the same with the Q49 replacing trains at Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd. I never knew the J went to 168 St until I was old enough to go to the Transit Museum by myself. That was around 1992.
Actually the line was SLOW and slipshod in many ways by the time it died. But that made it CHARMING too - especially the remains of the old wrought iron stations, the wooden platforms and the bucolic ride. You didn't use it for SPEED, but it was a nice place to ride and reflect and hit 149 St. I *loved* it every bit as much as I loved the Myrtle ... which curiously suffered from, and was charmed by, the EXACT same situation. Both lines were wonderful bits of living history while they lasted. And neither borough is the same without them now. :(
That scene on the LIRR was filmed at Cedarhurst (Far Rock Branch), and then along the Atlantic Avenue viaduct in Brooklyn.
Waste of a good train in a cheesy movie.
Come on now. Michele Pheiffer was adorable. Pretty much anything she's in is a winner (except "Dangerous Minds")
Come on now. Michele Pheiffer was adorable. Pretty much anything she's in is a winner (except "Dangerous Minds")
Yeah, but she's never shown her "charms."
Ahhhh - you've seen 2 and you've seen em all.
Ahhhh - you've seen 2 and you've seen em all.
2 Movies? :-)
Of course, Karl. What else could I be referring to. BTW, looks like Mikey and I will be out to see you (next month)?
That sounds great! I sure hope nothing comes up that forces you to change your plans. Mike agreed with me last fall when I said that I thought you would really be impressed.
Incidently, I like Michelle too. I thought she was terrific in Sweet Liberty, One Fine Day & Up Close and Personal!
Especially in Up Close and Personal.
M-1 or M-3?
How about "The Incident"? Starring Ed McMann of Johnny Carson fame. A complete ride from the Bronx to Manhattan in glorious black and white. I think it beats The Taking of Pelham 123 in pure elevated and subway film footage. Great shots of the stations along the line too. Dang it, I can't remember which line it was though.
The movie was "set" as being on the Woodlawn Jerome line, however the FOOTAGE (when not in a studio mockup on a sound stage) was ACTUALLY the third avenue el in the Bronx ...
A very late film (1968) to have been shot in black and white, but it both evokes the proper nervous tension mood of the movie, and the Low V-WF car just seems to fit in with the monochome look (the aged design combined with the narrower IRT cars add to the claustrophobic feel, which is exactly what the filmmakers had in mind).
And Ed does way better here than he did with Pia Zadora in "Butterfly"...
Heh. I forgot all about that other dog until you brought it up. Yeah, the film was definitely intended to USE the black and white and although it really wasn't that great a movie, the TRAIN shots in it was superb. And you can TELL that the TA didn't want them on their property with all those rooftop and street shots of the trains going by ... they still managed to snag a few fare areas and platforms anyway. Musta been "grab some frames then run like hell" like an Ed Wood shoot. :)
I saw "Buttefly" when it first came out. "Mystery Science Theater 3000" was still just a gleam in a couple of Minnesotan's eyes, but the audience had a great time coming up with dialogue to reply to the characters on screen.
I should have brought a tape recorder. Sometime's a film really is so bad it's good (which paraphrases a lot of what Pia actually says during the movie. You can see why the foreign film critics gave her a Golden Globe for this one...)
Heh. Been to WAY too many of THOSE kinda flicks. :)
They actually concealed their cameras in bags and/or boxes. The cops got suspicious when they stated hearing whirring noises emanating from the bags.
BTW there is a very brief shot of an SMEE 4 train entering the tunnel south of 161st St.
Imagine if they tried that *now* ... there'd be stains up and down the platform, and the occasional sizzling sound from the third rail. :)
And the final scene was shot at Brook Avenue station. Been a long time since I saw this film.
Starz/Encore has run it a few times lately. They did cover a lot of the third avenue el though when they weren't in the plywood subway car. :)
You can see the curve of 210th St-Williamsbridge on the #8 (night shot) even tho the station sign says "Mt Eden Ave".
Ah yes, and those classic 1938 Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-V's...
wayne
The Incident is notable for being one of the few movies about the subway system where most of the action on board the subway car was shot on a full-scale mockup instead of in the system....The director realized that the film required more flexibility than the confines of an actual A-Division car allowed, so they contacted the St. Louis Car Company who gladly furnished the film co. with pictures and detailed drawings of a steinway car. Somewhere on the web is a site with all the info on this...
The annual Philadelphia flower show is on thru this weekend.
Want a glimpse of spring?
Why not take the train down? Any excuse to come to Philly to ride the El, the Sub, and trolleys, and you can get lost in the tropical theme of the show!
Come on down!
HA! It's like 22 bucks to get in, better not plan on riding Amtrak, you'll need every penny that you save NJT to SEPTA just to get in.
NOW if the 23 trolley was running under the convention center next to Reading Terminal, then it might be worth it to pay 22 bucks to get in and look out the windows, then I might go.
Until then I think I can think of better things to spend 22 bucks on, like a fantrip or something.
I went. Rode the 34 trolley there and back.
Mark
heavy rail lower manhattan 45 min on J/Z or more on all others from queens
Railroad lower manhattan via FBA on lirr-17 min on LIRR, 5-10 mins on subway
if Queens bus rides used the LIRR at jamaica instead of the subway, the lirr can offer a free transfer- like the paper bus transfers-but with a lirr ticket from Jamaica to FBA on the transfer instead of a metrocard strip
if the MTA used sense, they can have a much more useful use of the Atlantic-Pacific complex, with added M service, and heavy advertizing the ta could have a perfect solution with any new tunnels or anything. and yes FBA is WAAAYYYY underserviced in the rush
Well apparently there is a G.O. going on that M train's are terminating at Chambers St and not 9Av because of track work there.I saw this yesterday while I did my train trip.Is this an emergency G.O. that only happened yesterday or is this another G.O. that the TA FAILED to put on thier website?If this is a regular G.O. then probably this week 10AM-3PM,M trains run between Metropolitan Av and Chambers St only.Transfer to the 4 at Chambers St for service to Court St/Borogh Hall for N&R service along 4th Av.
Or you could more simply transfer to the N, R & W at Canal St.
Yeah,that too.It slipped my mind.
Ouch. What a nice double transfer, including - eugh - Fulton St.
If 9th Av is out as a terminal, it would have been easier for riders to have something like this:
(M) 4th Av Express - 59th St (relaying on the Sea Beach Express tracks)
(N) 4th Av Express - Sea Beach
(R) 4th Av Local - 95th St
(W) 4th Av Local - West End
Sea Beach Express tracks are out for another, unrelated GO.
The Ms are short-turning at Chambers because a GO has every other W terminating at Bay Parkway.
So why can't the M run to 9th Avenue? That shouldn't interfere with the W.
Sorry. Yet another GO has 9th Ave middle track OOS for signal work. The two work together - why, I don't know since they are run by different towers.
Why so many GO's at once in the same area?
Why not send alternate M's to 95th for the time being? I'm sure some people are showing up at Broad, Fulton, and Chambers planning to go south to Brooklyn on the M. If there were so much as a posting on the website, at least some people would know to walk over to the N/R instead.
Is the N running local in Brooklyn or have local passengers lost half their service with no warning?
Ouch! Too many GOs! So why not send both (M) and (N) to 86th St, make the (W) local on 4th Av and via the Rathole, with the (N) on da Bridge?
Sure hope there are signs posted for people waiting for the M between 36th and Fulton. A lot of people board the Metro-bound M at Court and Fulton, and the 9th-bound M at Fulton and Broad during midday hours. There'd be a lot of angry people who find they've been waiting for a train that isn't running- especially on the downtown Broad Street platform, which is a dead end without the M going through Montague.
Except for the dead end at Broad, it's fairly easy to get around this GO from both directions, if you know what to do- AND if there are proper signs and station announcements.
The Queens-bound G at Fulton Street seems to stop at the east end of the
platform (towards Queens), which is suboptimal because the only entrance/exit is at the west (towards Hoyt-Schermerhorn) end of the platform, via tunnel passage to the Smith/9th-bound side. Stupid.
Is there any good reason for this? If not, is there someone I can
contact at the MTA to fix it?
Its because of the position of the monitors I believe.
It's just as bad at Broadway, where the Queens-bound train stops fully at the north end, while the only exit is at the south. And the Brooklyn-bound G at Metropolitan Avenue stops a full car away from the exit (and transfer) at the north end. It's inexcusable. And OPTO is not the culprit, since this occurs with two-man crews.
Man quit your bitchin and moaning and deal with it like a man and don't be so f***ing lazy!
Yeah...but what if toro-papa is a person with bad legs?
Firstly, not everyone has the athletic abilities of active people. A young person can probably walk this whole distance but what about the elderly, disabled or children? Next time, stop making foolish assumptions unless you get a kick out of making an ass of yourself.
It'd be ironic if I see you out of breath while trying to walk the full length of the platform.
I can walk a platform length 10times over.Just watch me do 30laps back and forth without a problem.I once walked 3 1/2 miles for about 2 hours without ever stopping for a break.So I believe,just like everyone else,the guy is just complaining cause he's lazy.
I can walk a platform length 10times over.Just watch me do 30laps back and forth without a problem.I once walked 3 1/2 miles for about 2 hours without ever stopping for a break.So I believe,just like everyone else,the guy is just complaining cause he's lazy.
Maybe he's disabled or elderly, rather than lazy.
By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point.
"Maybe he's disabled or elderly, rather than lazy."
Good point.
"By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point. "
No, not true. Walking is both a way to get somewhere and very good, low-impact, heart-healthy exercise. You won't burn as many calories per hour this way as with other activities, or gain athletic fitness, but it is helpful to your body.
By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point.
No, not true. Walking is both a way to get somewhere and very good, low-impact, heart-healthy exercise. You won't burn as many calories per hour this way as with other activities, or gain athletic fitness, but it is helpful to your body
Everyone says that walking's a good exercise, but I have my doubts. I've always been big on walking. If the weather's decent, I try to get out and walk for at least a half-hour every day at lunch. Some evenings I'll walk the two miles to Penn Station after work rather than take the subway. I had thought that I was in pretty decent shape thanks to all that walking. But last August, while on vacation in Arizona, I tried using some of the cardio equipment in the hotel's fitness center ... and let me tell you, I had an unpleasant surprise. Five minutes on an elliptical trainer felt tougher than an hour's brisk walking. It was pretty obvious that walking's exercise benefits were quite overstated. Of course, the experience turned out to be a good one, as it motivated me to take up serious exercise and weight training, and to put my marshmallow days behind me. But clearly, walking's not all it's cracked up to be.
You're all missing the point. I'll walk the damn half a train length. Some people can't, or shouldn't have to. There's no reason why people should have to run for the train whenever it comes, because there's no sign saying that the train doesn't stop near the platform entrance. It's something I thought should be fixed because it was incredibly stupid. People have posted reasons why it's that way. Great. Now I know. It's not about laziness.
Well the TA isn't gonna do diddly squat about it just cause one guy complains.now if a million people complain,THEN they'll do something. So looks like everyone at Fulton St will just have to deal with it.
Good for you, maybe you'll get hit by a train, get your legs cut off, and you'll have to wheel down the platform to get the G train which "platformed stupidly". Not so easy, eh? Think for others, not only for yourself.
V Train, I suspect that the distance doesn't bother most of us on this board... even those of us here who, like myself, have some difficulty walking great distances will do so for the sake of a railfan window or some other desired goal. But we don't make up the majority of transit riders - people who are using the subway to get from point A to point B do - and the MTA needs to recognize the needs of those people, their primary customers, and act appropriately. As I'm sure you recognize, its customers are people of all ages, in all states of health, and the MTA must do its best to make usage of the subway easier for the least able of its passengers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It just makes sense for shorter trains to stop nearest to the busiest entrance/exit. If two entrances and or exits exist then stop in between. The biggest limitation of platform mounted monitors is the fact that the T/O needs too stop at the monitor location. The monitors are most likely set up so they can also be used by full length trains. That is why having in cab flat panel or wireless monitors makes more sense. It allows more operational flexibility and also corrects the sloppy project managment and planning which the TA is famous for
The G trains stop all the way at the opposite ends of the platform at Fulton Street and Broadway because the line is partly OPTO. The trains have to stop where the T/O can see the entire length of the 4 car train. The straightest parts of the platforms where he can see the whole train happen to be where the exits are not.
He can get into some serious trouble if he does not make the proper station car stops. So it looks like for the time being, people at those stations will be doing the G train sprint. Sorry.
Either you love the G, or you hate the G. I love it. Takes me where I wanna go in Brooklyn fast! 4 car trains fly!
Good reasons? Yes and no. While it has been said and is true, positioning of the car markers in certain spots is for the view of an operator/conductor to see the platform when no cameras exist. However with a little money, some spots could benefit with the help of platform cameras and monitors. Fulton St. northbound was rumored to get cameras for a while now but no action has commenced. During OPTO operation, northbound G trains stop at the very north end of the station. During regular operation, the train stops about 100 feet further south. I think they (TA) would be able to stop the train another 50 feet south and still have the operator be able to observe his/her train without any cameras. If some money was spent, cameras would be able to afford the train to stop at the south end of the station. Broadway northbound was mentioned also. The only place you are guarunteed to catch a train is at the conductors board. OPTO stops at the south end of the station. Train operator stops his/her position at the conductors board and uses cameras and monitors to view the platform. During regular operation, the train stops at the very north end and the back of the train is at the conductors board. The north end of the platform is straight. Without the addition of any new monitors, I feel the train (during regular operation) could stop about 100 feet south of where it does now. While this would benefit the riding public, it also benefits the employees as well because the passengers won't be angry towards them that they had to run after the train. Some customers feel the employees do this on purpose rather than just obeying the rules. As far as contacting someone, there must be someone that handles this somewhere but I'm not sure it would be of any good. I've heard some superintendents try to question some spots and were told that for safety reasons, and thorough studies, that is where they (TA) have decided to stop the trains at. I was helpful in getting the OPTO car marker moved at Woodhaven Blvd. however. When OPTO began on the G the short trains were stopping at the north half of the station, away from the staircases and main entrance that were at the southern half of the station. People were running for the train, getting angry with the operators. Trains were delayed because so many people were trying to board the first car. The TA finally moved the car marker about 100 feet south to another set of monitors and the crowding situation at this station is much better. TA could install cameras/monitors at some places but for their reasons, some people have to walk farther than others. Some monitors were installed at some stations at the R110B boards along the A line recently but when was the last time the R110B went down the road?
I notice that also, I get the A Train to Hoyt and then get the G Train to Fulton When Im going to dad's house, and its very annoying walking under that underpath, and very dangerous at times.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If not, is there someone I can
contact at the MTA to fix it?
Yes, you can e-mail the MTA here.
Same problem at Smith-9th SB (last stop). The only exit is at the far north end of the platform. The OPTO marker is at the midpoint (good) but the 6-car marker is at the far south end (bad), so weekend passengers have it easy but weekday passengers all have to walk.
I think the idea is that the person who opens the doors is always in the same place. When there's a C/R, he's in the last car. When there isn't a C/R, the T/O opens the doors, and he's in front. And on the F, the C/R is in the middle. A second set of monitors would be a worthwhile investment, I think.
I agree with you.
I also agree. This board is begining to make common sense. OOPS,
time to egress. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Remember the recent thread? Randy Kennedy offers his two cents' worth on the subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/nyregion/04TUNN.html
Yes, we do remember this morning's thread about this column :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone going to this:
A special Full Board Meeting to discuss the MTA Financial Plan will be held on:
Thursday, March 6, 2003
9:30 AM
5th Floor Board Room
347 Madison Avenue
New York, New York
Info taken from here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/hearings.htm
I might be there. Maybe we can do a secret handshake or something. I want to keep a low profile.
Oh Man!!!! My spring break starts this coming week. I really really really wanna go. I have something to say to these MTA Board people. Why now? Why not next week. Damn! Shoot! :(
Skip class and come to the meeting.
Can't, I got a midterm. :( GRRR! Oh well, I hope there will be another one next week. I was thinking about meeting you for the time in a way. Anyway, I liked your website, its awesome, especially the "Most Popular Pic, I felt sorry for that chinese kid who injuried from that bike competition in Great Wall. And that Sandstorm. They are really cool!
Thanks. I haven't updated that section in a while because I'm afraid someone from the AP or Reuters will sue me. In any event, it looks like I won't be going to the MTA meeting. My boss is going, but it seems he won't be taking me. I really wanted to go. Oh well.
---Brian
BTW, the chinese wall guy who died...he had already made a successful jump over the wall the day before or a few hours before and he doed trying it a second time. He should have quit while he was ahead.
Thanks for posting that. I really wish I could go.
I encourage anyone who can, to attend.
I was walking home in Flushing Tues. night at about midnight, when I heard a distant train horn...two long toots, followed by two short ones...and the unmistakable WHOOSH you hear when the train goes by. The PW branch is 3 blocks away, but there was NO train passing by when I glanced there during the noise, which was more distant than the noise from 3 blocks away, in any case.
The Jamaica main line is several miles to the south. Given the proper atmospheric conditions, can the noise carry all the way to Flushing?
I've noticed the phenomenon in other areas, as well, when there are no train tracks in the immediate vicinity.
Or maybe I'm nuts.
Any ideas?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I had a similar experience recently. I live in Rockville Centre, about 1 mile north of the tracks. Last week one late evening, I heard the long-long-short-long and thought at first it was coming from the Babylon branch -- but why would they be sounding that sequence when there are no crossings. A minute later I heard it again, and then again once more. Finally one last time. I realized it was a Long Beach branch train stopping at East Rockaway and Oceanside. Those stations are a 2.5 - 3 miles from my house.
I have also heard trains at Lakeview station which is about 2 miles west of my house.
CG
Sound travels in different ways, depending on atmospheric conditions (wind, cloud cover, snowpack), other external noises, and of course the decibel level itself and the direction of the sound waves. Out in the boonies, you can hear approaching train horns from several miles away, while in more crowded areas and with high winds or rain, train noises can just disappear amid other sounds.
Well maybe there were track workers. I used to hear horns coming from the south when I lived in Wantagh, usually at night. There were no grade crossings, maybe it an out of service train passing stations (or an express).
I could even hear the horns on the electrics as well, with a stiff south wind.
Probably not. It sounded more distant than usual, and it was one of those quiet nights that just seem to lend themselves to hearing things at a distance. Plus, the time that I heard it corresponded to a train on the LB Branch.
Back when I lived in Wantagh, I could hear the main line diesel trains blowing their horns, whenever there was a light north wind, this was usually at night. Of course, I could hear the diesels on the Babylon branch as well.
As well as here' in the evening, if the wind is easterly and the air moist, I can hear the diesel locomotives, going between Glen Cove and Glen Head. And if winds are calm or easterly, I always hear the horns. Not on a west wind though.
Sometimes on a nice foggy night the train sounds so close, but it's really a 20 minute walk away, or almost 1 mile.
Also, some mornings while waiting for the train at Sea Cliff, I can hear the horns blowing all the way from Locust Valley. It all depends on the wind, and humidity.
This happens all the time where I live in Leicester, UK. I often hear trains on the Midland Main Line even when I'm 2 miles away - after that hills tend to get in the way of the sound.
At night, when the air is colder and denser, sound travels farther. That, and the relative absence of other sounds (such as the cacaphony we're all used to during the day), makes it easier to hear train whistles. It also makes them sound closer than they really are.
At night, when the air is colder and denser, sound travels farther.
Actually in the region for normal temperatures (-10 to 40) ° C sound absorption decreases with temperature.
Thank you for correcting me on that.
The site you posted contains information that indicates that sound attentuation varies with relative humidity, as well as temperature, ground effects, wind effects, etc.
Density affects sound, in that sound propagation requires a medium (unlike light, which does not require a medium through which to travel). An example of the effect of the density of the medium is the traveling of sound waves through the water.
SFU's website also points out that cold air near the earth surface with a layer of warm air above it (an inversion) will propagate sound farther, due to the effect on the sound wave (bending).
I should add that the speed of light also varies depending on the medium it travels through. However, in space, or in a vacuum, there is no sound at all.
SFU's website also points out that cold air near the earth surface with a layer of warm air above it (an inversion) will propagate sound farther, due to the effect on the sound wave (bending).
There are two effects present in the attenuation of sound intensity with distance from its source. You mentioned absorption, which is the conversion of mechanical energy into heat.
The greater effect is due to sperical dispersion or the well known 1/r2 effect. No energy is lost (or created). It is simply spread over a larger area. However, the sound axis channel effect that you described permits cylindrical dispersion. This means that the intensity attenuation goes as 1/r.
This effect is more pronounced in the ocean. It was the use of such channels that permitted propogation and detection of sound waves from Lisbon to the Bahamas. Needless to say, such anomolies play an important part in the detection and "hiding" of submarines. Knowledge of them and ways to predict their existence is highly classified.
"This effect is more pronounced in the ocean. It was the use of such channels that permitted propogation and detection of sound waves from Lisbon to the Bahamas. Needless to say, such anomolies play an important part in the detection and "hiding" of submarines. Knowledge of them and ways to predict their existence is highly classified."
Yes, correct, though the basic science is not.
Submarine crews try to take advantage of "layering" of different water temperatures (thermoclines) and other conditions to try to hide from potential pursuers. The sources of sound traveling through heterogeneous regions is more difficult to track down.
Thank you for your illuminating and elegant posts on this subject.
On occasion, I can hear the horns of trains on the LIRR Montauk line from my house, even though I'm at least five miles north of the line.
At night, from my mother's house in Florida, it's possible to hear not just the horns from the freights on the FEC line two miles away, but the rumbling of the cars as well.
1. I grew up on E 24th St. in Sheepshead Bay which is ten blocks from the Brighton Line, and I was able to hear the trains (at times) loud and clear. I remember often hearing them in the morning when I left for school. (My school was in the other direction on Nostrand Ave.)
2. Yeh, in Miami Beach (which has no trains) I was able to hear the FEC trains across the bay (Biscayne) in Miami (which run near N. Miami Ave.) The sound would only travel in the winter months. Miami Ave. to Miami Beach is at least five miles (in a straight line).
Down here the NJT AC line traces an arc about 4 or 5 miles in radius around my home in it's transition from the north-south line to the Del-air Bridge to the line that runs along the PATCO line and continues to AC in that same basic direction. The closest the line gets to my house is 3 3/4 miles south of me, where the PATCO and AC line duck under 295 and the NJTP. The closest grade crossing on the AC line is Utica Ave in Haddonfield, just before the AC line (recently split from PATCO, just a few hundred yards back) leaps the Cooper River. Now I know for a fact that I have heard what could only be horns from NJT trains at that crossing, they do not sound right, nor do they come at the right times (weekends and nights as well as midday, PATCO runs no-pax specials in the mornings and afternoons to make up for a lack of Philly storage space, and they blow their horns at every station) to be PATCO trains. Also I have heard the 12:50am out of Philly, as well as the 12:45am out of AC, mostly for the reasons that RoninBayside was kind enough to post, I suppose it could be trucks on the highway (which is just 3/4 mile away), but the tone really doesn't sound right.
Back when I lived in Chicago my house was like 100 yards at most from the Chicago Northwestern Northwest Line, running from Chicago up to Janesville WI. Daytime meant lots of Metra commuter trains and maybe two midday freight trains, while nighttime saw the Metras turn in for the night, and maybe 2 to 4 freights coming out. The line was dead straight, not a kink or turn for maybe 20 miles in each direction. Those freights sound would carry for miles, echoing off the pretty much empty surroundings and slight river valley that the Fox River had dug for itself. I actually figured the distance out, a friend from school staying for the weekend with a relative who lived on the south side of barrington, nearly the same distance from the tracks as I, IM'd me that there was a northbound freight coming, I walked outside to take a listen, and heard the 645s growling, he was almost 6 miles away and I heard the same train that he had. It was night, almost 1 am, and absolutely still, not a breeze to be felt, very good conditions to hear something over great distances in any direction.
Here at Drexel, I can miss 4 EMD or GE SD70MACs or C44-9Ws if the buildings get in the way. I can be on the far side of Disque Hall, halfway between 32nd and 33rd, less than 1000 yards from the high line, and I will completely miss the sound of a passing freight, until I step out onto market and am surprised to see the rear-most locomotive duck behind the PPA's building.
I guess it is wholely possible that if the conditions were right, and there were no buildings to block the sound, or you had a clear line of sight with the train, you may have heard a train on the LIRR main.
>>>I guess it is wholely possible that if the conditions were right, and there were no buildings to block the sound, or you had a clear line of sight with the train, you may
have heard a train on the LIRR main. <<
It must have been. Where I am in Flushing, there are a couple of hills and valleys between here and Jamaica. But what I heard had to be from the main line.
Also, in my room, when the train goes by on the PW branch, I hear it loud and clear; the station is in view from my room in winter. It's weird because there's at least a quarter to half mile, abt 3 avenues and 5 streets, from my house to the Broadway station.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can clearly hear freight trains ten miles away.
How can I tell it is ten miles away.
Well, I can hear when it whistles for the grade crossings, and there aint all that many of them out here. And I can hear the locomotives for many minutes before I hear them whistle for the first grade crossing west of Taylor which is Seven Miles west of where I am.
But then of course, we do not have any city sounds to drown out the trains.
One time several summers ago I heard a WHISTLE instead of the horn, and looked up to see 8449 pulling a passenger train through town. Had I checked the papers, I would have known of its pending transit, and would have been at the wayside with camera in hand.
Elias
It's quite open and quiet where I am in Suffolk, but still not as much as a real rural area. In rural areas, the sound seems to travel farther because there are not as many houses, etc I guess to block the noise. I had a friend that used to live in Vermont, and I would hear the freight trains from quite a few miles away in the middle of the night. The sound seems to carry different in rural areas.
Back when I lived in Middle Village, I remember hearing the sounds of either a freight train or a LIRR train from my house. The LIRR tracks are about 2 miles from my house while a set of freight tracks (isn't there a set of train tracks that runs through Glendale, Queens?) is about...3-4 miles away?
Actually in middle village there is the NYCRR tracks that run right next to the M tracks, and just south of the Metropolitan M station is the LIRR tracks that do run right through there, and through Glendale behind the cemetery.
When I used to live in Brightwaters. we could hear the trains on the LIRR Mainline in Deer Park/Brentwood....and the Montauk line trains we could hear out to Great River. The horns used to carry quite a ways.
The horns used to carry quite a ways.
Yup, but some knucklehead in a car 20 FEET from the crossing NEVER HAS A CLUE!
Elias
I love hearing train sounds across rivers and bays. You can hear trains in New Jersey from many spots, including Staten Island, Manhattan and even Brooklyn. Or taking a ferry ride and hearing the trains passing behind you, the sounds particulary clear on cold nightime crossings. Makes me want to follow, see where the train goes.
From outside my house I can hear the train horns on the NJCL, which at its closest point is about 2.5 miles away as the crow flies. Sometimes the horns are faint, other times they are quite clear (usually at night when there is less ambient noise); don't think I've ever heard the sound of the train itself though.
There is a Conrail branch (connects with the NJCL at Red Bank) that passes within 1/2 mile of my house; I can hear the horn anywhere in the house and the actual train sounds if I'm upstairs and the air conditioner isn't running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Under the right conditions, weird things happen - I could hear I-84/I-91 from the University of Hartford campus at 3am, easily. On the flip side, walking between my apartment and the Stop and Shop, right next to I-84, there would be spots were I'd hear NO highway noise at all (ironically, none were behind the noise barriers that were up by my apartment, and are frankly worthless anyway).
I can hear the M-7s from quite a distance, the inverter noise carries. Same thing with the VFDs at work, I can hear the final tests on the VVVF controllers easily. Heck, I can hear my antique color TVs hunting for the horizontal on warmup, RCA based designs make a weird almost musical noise as they come up. Often when I'm working on a TV, I can tell if the sync's right simply by listening.
Some noises carry, some don't, and it depends on the weather, temperature, wind, etc...
Stephen Baumann's hyperlink talks about frequency of sound as an important independent variable.
I'm about a half mile from the LIRR Montauk Branch, and can usually hear the trains quite well, although it depends on the weather. Actually, I can hear the eastbounds better than the westbounds because the diesel end is much louder than the cab end which has M1 like horns. Before they got new trains, I heard much better in both directions, and could sometimes even tell if it was GP38, MP15, or an F! Sometimes at night when I can't sleep, I can even here the train stop at the station in the middle of the night, give two quick blasts as it starts up, and hear the rumbling of the engines. It is quite relaxing hearing the train in the distance. It was much nicer though in the days of the GP38-2's, those things really roared when they started up at the station.
STORY in todays Daily News, detailing unlimited card rates and more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bring it on. I am ready for this.
The Fun pass should be raised to $5 not $6 or $7 dollars to be inline with the fare increase. I dont think the fun pass fare should go up 50% or 75% more then its current price. Anyone agree with me here?
Currntly the Fun Pass is $4.00 meaning that if you use it 4 times for initial fares ($6.00) you will save $2.00. 4 times use is when you really start to save (OK at 3 times you save 50 cents)
If the MTA stays along that thinking then they will probably make the new FP $6.00 so that you would still save $2.00 with a 4 time use. If you used it only 3 times then you would save nothing.
They could go to $7.00 but I can't see them going only to $5.00.
You're forgetting about the 10% bonus. A $4 Fun Pass is worthwhile, but only slightly so, over three rides on a $15 PPR.
To continue that policy, a PPR should be $5 or $5.25.
But I don't think NYCT wants to continue that policy. The Fun Pass is too good a deal.
This may (or may not) even be another example of city-suburb warfare. Suburban commuters who use the subway most likely use it at every commute, so they buy 30-day unlimiteds (at a further discount, yet, if they're from the east or north), and get the now-improved savings. Suburban noncommuters don't use the subway much at all, and when they do, it's probably for only two rides per day. It's tourists and noncommuting city residents -- especially city residents without cars -- who find the Fun Pass most useful. Why should anyone care about tourists or city residents without cars?
Incidentally, where do the MTA board members live? How often do they use facilities belonging to each of the MTA's agencies? (Why do I have a nagging feeling that they use B&T more than all others combined? Notice how much smaller the B&T toll increase is than any of the fare increases.)
(The Fun Pass is too good a deal.)
I'm afraid you're right. Probably NYCT is getting killed by smart New Yorkers realizing how much they can save by using Fun Passes on their multi-errand days, and individual rides the rest of the time.
Currently with a fun pass you never have to spend for more than 3 rides in a day. So a weekly rarely makes sense for me, since I don't have to ride every day. With the weekly going up a bit and the Fun Pass a lot, I'll be stuck paying for more weeklies and more individual fares.
I think the current pricing scheme makes a lot of sense. It's the closest we can get to an off-peak discount without implementing an off-peak discount. Someone who rides only twice a day probably rides only during rush hours, and a PPR is still cheapest. Only someone who rides at least three times per day (or per weekday) does the unlimited make sense, and at least one of those rides is probably off-peak. (No, it's not perfect. Someone who commutes every day off-peak can't claim the discount, and a Fun Pass isn't very valuable to someone whose waking hours are 8pm to noon.)
In Boston, the equivalent of a Fun Pass (it's call the Visitor's Passport here) is $6, 6x the cost of a single ride. So it takes seven rides to pass the break-even.
You note that it is called the VISITORS passport. Does that mean that residents are not allowed to buy it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oops, it's the BOSTON VISITOR PASS. Anyone can buy it, but it's only available at certain locations, such as major stations, some hotels, and tourist centers.
The Boston Visitor Pass is valid for unlimited travel on the subway, local bus and inner harbor ferry.
-One day pass - $6.00
-Three day pass - $11.00
-Seven day pass - $22.00
Interestingly, the MBTA now sells commuters a "Weekly Combo Pass" for $12.50.
Here's the whole pricing structure.
How many people is it good for? In Toronto they have a 7.00 CDN pass that is good for 2 adults and 3 kids or 1 adult and 4/5 kids. The pass provides for unlimited rides all day. The TTC also provides for unlimited free transfers so you can ride it until the day you die if you never let your transfer expire.
A group pass is really what transit needs. So many times a family needs to get somewhere down town and using transit would cost something like 8x the fare. At that point they just pile into the SUV and off they go.
For example, going to the Vet for a ball game costs me $6.10 round trip. With my dad that's up to 12.20. My friend and his dad is 24.40, etc. You can see how the cost ballons. At 24.40 we might as well drive and park in a stadium lot. An Off-peak group/family pass is essential to get people out of SUV's and into transit.
Your arguments may have a point, but I just don't see this as being city-suburb warfare.
I work in midtown. Most suburbanites take the train in and walk. They ride the subway occasionally, and pay per ride. Therefore, they pay a lot more. Whereas almost every city resident has an unlimited. They get a big discount. So that part helps the commuting city residents.
In addition, commuting city residents are much more likely to take the subway more than just to commute, so their discounts are even deeper because taking the subway for errands is essentially free. Meanwhile, suburbanites have to drive, paying all the costs of car ownership (gas, insurance, depreciation, etc.)
> Who cares about city residents without cars?
Most of them commute, and get the greatest benefit under this system. Noncommuting city residents don't really benefit, true, but there's not much way to separate them from suburbanites who commute by railroad and not by subway.
As for the Fun Pass, tourists can afford the extra. Why is it suburban warfare to hurt tourists? As for noncommuting city residents, do they really bunch all their errands together in order to save money on the subway? How do they carry things? Is there hard data on this?
If you really want to save the most money and are a noncommuter (say, a domestic parent) you will do most errands without taking the subway, and when you do take it, go to an area with a lot of stores instead of shuttling around all the time. Besides, it's faster. And that is still the most efficient way.
Finally, I wonder if deeper bulk discounts might encourage more suburban commuters to take the subway, increasing ridership, revenue, and political support for the subway. Of course we ought to have enough capacity to accommodate them, which is another frequently discussed topic.
(Whereas almost every city resident has an unlimited.)
Not true. Many city residents do not need to take the subway to and from work every day. I have lived in the city of 26 years, and been gainfully employed for most of that time, and have never regularly taken the subway every day. I have worked in the suburbs, walked to work, and worked at home.
I use a fun pass whenever I have a major-errand kind of a day.
I suspect the vast majority of fun passes are used by city residents in situations similar to mine and see a nice loophole, which the MTA is about to close.
I used the Fun Pass when I was in NYC last year. My impression was that it was underpriced even then.
Elias
"The Fun pass should be raised to $5 not $6 or $7 dollars to be inline with the fare increase."
I agree with you completely. You should continue to be able to start saving money by the third ride, not the fourth. -Nick
"... But the centerpiece is the $2 bus and subway fare, which could be implemented as early as April 1 ..."
The big secret at the TA is out ! They did a pritty good job of keeping it quite since JANUARY !
mr. t,
Are the "privates" obliged to raise the base fare in sync? How is it that off-peak discounts are allowed on the "privates"?
I was on a Green Bus yesterday and I saw a notice for a fare increase on the privates. I wasn't on that long to see when. But it's there.
I guess the BOT gave the private buses a break by having the $1 off-peak fare to encourage ridership. For a dollar you can transfer to a TA bus without paying extra. It also gives me a chance to use my golden dollars.
Yesterday I stumbled onto a legal notice in the NY Post stating that the privates are petitioning to abolish the $1.00 off peak fare and have all fares consistent with those charged by NYCT.
Well, that's still to be worked out by the politians.
The TA is all set to go with it. Here the software will be put in "anticipation" of a change. There's a couple of other software changes part of the upgrade, one from August that they are just implementing now. So, likely the TA fare will go up then Mayor Mike will OK the same at the privates ... he may have already approved it, but then its still a secret ... NOT.
Mayor Rudy lowered the Express fare & added the off-peek benifit.
Mayor Mike wants the money lost from the off-peek discount. He also wanted most/all the week-end Express to go away, but was overruled by the City counsel.
Note: Folks get off-peek only if they pay cash, i.e. MCs still take $1.50 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The TA agreed to it because they thought not many would be bothered coming up with the dollar in cash (actually $2.00 for a round trip). Week-ends we see the biggest increase in cash customers.
Disclaimer: I'm NOT the spokesperson for MTA, TA or nycDOT. Just speaking for myself.
It doesn't give all the details, such as whether MTA will upgrade its software to allow you to replace a lost or stolen MetroCard, or whether a two week or one-week unlimited card will actually be introduced.
Two week cards and the like are not cost effective for the MTA unles they can Eliminate token booths.
There is no savings in reducing the number of transactions if one can not reep the savings by having less sellers of fares.
Thank all the activists at the public hearings who were a 40% TWU members and the large majority of the rest of the folks were from special interests groups. At the meeting I went to there were 5 speakers including myself that were not from a special interest group.
Instead of demanding two week cards, non-continuous 5 day unlimites and the like they screemed that college students could needed tooken booths clerks near there school
Lets subtalkers show up in force at tommorrows board meeting two week cards, replacement for lost cards etc. IF you look at it closely, two week cards, subscription metrocard etc are bad for the TWU membership. It mean less need for tooken booth clerks becuase less transactions
And this fare hike is all b/c of all of the money spent on new useless equipment such as the R142 R142A R143 Onion 7s that have still not showed up on the TA Property as of yet and New Flyer Artics. Artics I say have been the only good thing about all of the TA Purchases. Otherwise tsk tsk tsk!
#5529 M23
#8869 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Oh LORD
Peace,
ANDEE
You called?
:0)
And this fare hike is all b/c of all of the money spent on new useless equipment such as the R142 R142A R143 Onion 7s that have still not showed up on the TA Property as of yet and New Flyer Artics. Artics I say have been the only good thing about all of the TA Purchases. Otherwise tsk tsk tsk!
#5529 M23
#8869 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
"Two week cards and the like are not cost effective for the MTA unles they can Eliminate token booths.
There is no savings in reducing the number of transactions if one can not reep the savings by having less sellers of fares."
That is not the primary reason two-week cards are being advocated.
The reason is that unlimited MetroCards of whatever length represent more stable, predictable income. Overall, they reduce income variability, reduce the need for token booth clerks to handle cash (because you can get them anywhere, including machines). This makes the MTA's job of cash management easier. It will also make it easier to use MetroCards, making the elimination of tokens less of a hardship on those 9% of riders who still use tokens.
The unlimited two week card also helps people who do not have $63 at one time to pay for a monthly card. This way, they can still get a card which will offer them a discount, though not as much as the monthly card.
"Thank all the activists at the public hearings who were a 40% TWU members and the large majority of the rest of the folks were from special interests groups. At the meeting I went to there were 5 speakers including myself that were not from a special interest group. "
Do you condemn them for exercising their rights to freedom of speech?
"Lets subtalkers show up in force at tommorrows board meeting two week cards, replacement for lost cards etc. IF you look at it closely, two week cards, subscription metrocard etc are bad for the TWU membership. It mean less need for tooken booth clerks becuase less transactions "
TWU members will find other jobs.
No I don't Condemn them for there rights of to freedom of speech. What ended up happening is that these special interest groups monopolized the meeting. I arrived about a half hour before the meeting started, signed up to speak and waited almost 3 hours to speak.
The special intersts groups know the ropes and pre-registered to speak. Many average people who signed up to speak ended up leaving before there turn came up when the board took their secound break at about 7 PM. The sweet lady at the signup desk gave no indication of how long the wait would be. She did not see the preregistration list.
At times it felt like a fillabuster was being conducted in congress. One guy recited poetry completely unrelated to transit. Another bus depot worker(I feel sorry for BIG AL from bustalk) took the opurtunity to more of less yell at the board. She was mad that TWU jobs would be lost with the booth closing. Another guy thought he was funny and pitched completly rediculous ideas about changing the MTA colors. From what I overheard, many of these people spoke at every public hearing.
Should have been raised to $1.75 a few years ago, then we wouldn't be seeing a fare increase to $2 until 2005.
-Hank
A fare hike to $1.75 a few years ago combined with right sizing services would have avoided a fare hike for quite some time.
It is the MTA under political pressure from the govenor and the temporary surplus that was related to one of the biggest boom time in NYC history combined with tremendous growth in telephone line tax.
Look at that beauty on the "cover" page :)
What total crap. Discounting the monthlies is exactly NOT what they sould be doing. They keep bitching that the average ride is like $1. Well then dump the discounts before you start raising the base price. All you do is screw the vast majority of people who ride the subways infrequently. Shit, $7 for a Fun Pass? There's not much point in buying one at that price.
You know, I used to keep my Fun Passes after transiting in NYC. If they cost $7 I am going to give them away b4 I go home and exit swipe as well just to SPITE those jerks.
Way to encourage transit by making it prohibitively expensive.
"What total crap. Discounting the monthlies is exactly NOT what they sould be doing."
It seems to me that some on this board seem to believe that there is something morally right about everyone paying the same price for a ride, and something wicked about letting some people pay less. The elderly, disabled and students get reduced prices, and a good thing too. All regular travellers can also get reductions now, between the unlimiteds and the 6/$10 deal. There can't be many people, not disabled, elderly, or young, who can't afford to pay out $10 in advance. What is wrong with giving regular customers a better deal?
People paying a single fare will likely be casual, infrequent visitors to NYC. They will will typically be either visiting business people being paid for by their employers, or people on vacation. Either way they will be paying out a lot on hotels, restaurants, entertainments, etc., which give much worse value for money than a $2 transit ride. That price won't deter them from using transit, though imagined dangers on the subway might. And have you noticed what Gray Line charges for its red double-decker bus tours?
Another Warrington blunder reversed:
======================================
Acela Regional Changes Name to Regional
Despite the challenges of the last year, Acela Express continues to be a
popular service. Passengers like it because it’s fast and has lots of
desirable amenities on board. Many also like Acela Regional because it
offers a good value, providing reliable service for a reasonable price.
But we know that confusion over the two names persists. Consequently,
we are going to drop the name Acela from the Regional service, and
simply call the service by one word: “Regional,” effective March 17.
Frankly, we all heard our customers. The sharing of the Acela brand
name was confusing. Change, in this case, is certainly necessary. So,
going forward, there will be the following service options in the
Northeast Corridor from Newport News, VA to Boston:
· Acela Express. Our popular premium service offers reserved
First class and Business class seating. All passengers enjoy food and
beverages in the Café Car, and make use of RailFoneâ service and
electrical outlets. First class passengers enjoy complimentary at-seat
meal and beverage service and hot towel service. Business class
passengers benefit from personal audio entertainment and adjustable
reading lamps.
· Metroliner. With all seats reserved, Metroliner passengers
traveling between New York and Washington may choose between First class
and Business class seating. All passengers have access to a Café Car,
RailFoneâ, halogen reading lights, and electrical outlets. First class
travelers are served complimentary at-seat meals and beverages.
· Regional. Passengers aboard the Regional Service will continue
to enjoy Business class and Coach class options from Boston to Newport
News. Business class passengers enjoy reserved seating and a
complimentary non-alcoholic beverage in the Café Car. The Café Car is
open to all passengers and offers a selection of food and beverages.
Electrical outlets are also available.
· The commuter services will continue to be known specifically
by their own names – the Keystone (between New York and Harrisburg) and
Clocker (serving the corridor between New York and Philadelphia) – and
offer value, convenience, and reliability.
Transitions and changes in name don’t take place overnight. Over the
next few weeks, you will see a gradual transition from Acela Regional to
Regional, in signage and other areas.
To help you assist our passengers with this transition, we will be
providing northeast stations and customer service representatives with
ticket stuffers describing the choices passengers have from Newport News
to Boston. Passengers will also read about the service options on the
Amtrak Web site and in Arrive magazine. The changes will be reflected
in the new April timetable, Solari boards and monitors in stations,
“Julie” (VRU), and ARROW.
Sometimes the mark of a good business isn’t making the best decision out
of the gate, but having the wherewithal to listen to our customers and
make changes when necessary. Please help us communicate this change and
the outstanding train services we continue to offer to our passengers.
Source: Amtrak
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling!
W00T! Let's hope they bring back NE Direct!
Nice. A good move on their part.
That should have never been necessary. Northeast Direct was a fine name for what are now the Regional trains.
SuperSteel Schenectady's rebuilding of four Turboliners for service on Amtrak's New York Empire Corridor is being delayed by Amtrak's failure to deliver engines and transmissions for the trains. At a Saturday meeting of the Empire State Passengers Association, SuperSteel President Scott Mintier said that Amtrak has refused to deliver these key components, which could produce delays in the project.
Under a New York state agreement with Amtrak, the state is paying to refurbish seven high speed trains for service on New York rail lines. As part of the deal Amtrak is supposed to provide the engines and transmissions for the trainsets, which have a locomotive at each end.
Amtrak has been complaining that it doesn't have adequate funds to do little more than maintain and run existing trains. Mintier told the Times Union that the new engines would cost about $5 million. While two Turboliners have been used in tests, they have not yet started making regular runs.
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel said that the railroad was seeking to minimize delays on the Turboliner project. The engines Super Steel needs will be delivered soon, Stessel said, but he declined to give a specific date.
This is a complex project and there are a number of issues involving Amtrak and Super Steel and the state Department of Transportation that must be resolved, he said. Amtrak’s goal is to put the two complete Turboliners in service as quickly as possible and to move ahead the construction of the others, Stessel said.
Source: www.trainorders.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Just a minor correction for the Associated Press puffpiece that's being quoted - the STATE was supposed to give Amtrak the MONEY for those engines and transmissions and Amtrak didn't receive the money to pay for them. AP apparently didn't check that out ...
I wish to let everyone on SubTalk know that Steinway & Sons turns 150 years old today and I expect to be at Steinway Hall at 109 W. 57th St. in Manhattan today to join in on the celebration. If any SubTalkers wnat to drop by, please do so. I expect to be there.
#3 West End Jeff
The only piano maker with subway tunnels named after it :)
At first they were trolley tunnels.
And all this time I thought the pianos were named after the subway tunnel. (Could they even fit through?)
The pianos could certainly fit through the Steinway tunnel. However you might find trying to move a Steinway "D" (8' 11 3/4") concert grand lengthwise through the tunnel a bit of a tight squeeze.
#3 West End Jeff
There used to be a street pianist at 61st(?) and Broadway. He wheeled his grand piano across Broadway every day to store it in the Coliseum.
At least that's where I thought he was going. Maybe he was actually bringing it onto the subway for a ride into Queens on the 7 train.
I hope he performed for his Redbirdfull of passengers.
Hopefully the grand piano that he had wasn't a full sized concert grand since it would be difficult for one person to move it alone. Maybe he just had something like a Steinway "M" (5' 7") grand.
#3 West End Jeff
Not to mention thw worse tunnels. Aren't the Steinway tunnels the only ones made out of cast iron?
In the subway, I think yes (not sure), but PATH's are cast iron also.
Spam.
Sixty-six years old today, and seemingly all of it is sitting in your e-mail in-box (Whoops! Wrong kind of Spam -- the processed meat type actually was introduced by Hormel on this date in 1937).
Big party going on HERE at Queens Surface, and all our buses on the Q101, Q102, Q103 & Q104 were dressed in streamers ... NOT
They didn't even put the only qualified trolley operator to work :-(
ANy updates?Anything finalized?
I'm not sure yet what is happening, but according to Metro Alert, there is an incident between the Pentagon & Pentagon City Stations on the Blue/Yellow Lines---I don't know what is going on but it says a station is closed. Which One? I don't Know.
Update--It's the Pentagon Station.......more to come......
Update---At 1:35---there was a suspicious package found at the Pentagon station----trains are being allowed through the station on one level (which one I'm not sure) but they are NOT stopping....
.....more to come....
Update---At 1:35---there was a suspicious package found at the Pentagon station----trains are being allowed through the station on one level (which one I'm not sure) but they are NOT stopping....
.....more to come....
Undoubtedly, someone's forgotten lunch bag.
Or their DEPENDS.
Peace,
ANDEE
Update----2:40 p.m.----No explosives were found, now they're checking for chemicals......more to come......
After about 2-hours, the station re-opened without incident, all the chemical tests came back negative....WHEW!!!
Did the check to see if the blue strips turned yellow????
Which alert did you get? I only got one, stating that something was closed but not stating what. I figure you also went to the WMATA website though.
Anyone know the dimensions of the PRR Catenary Towers that Amtrak now uses on the NEC? I've been searching online and can't find the actual dimensions. I'm tryin to build scale models of them for 2-Rail O-Scale display.
I just picked up an Atlas-O NJ Transit ALP-44 and some Comet coaches in 2-Rail O-Scale. In my opinion, they look soooo much better than the 3-rail versions....much more to scale!!! They have scale wheels and couplers and the lower ends of the train don't swing out with the trucks like Lionel Trains. The 3-rails have scale bodies but the trucks and couplers are not to scale. Don't get me wrong...I still love the Lionel trains. =)
You might try posting this question on the Discussion Web of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. It wouldn't surprise me if there hasn't been an article published in the Keystone (the PRRT&HS magazine) at some point over the years... don't have my copies handy, however, to check.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanx... I posted the question but still no response. I just may have to take a field trip to one and measure it myself. =) Only problem is that the nearest ones are in NJ for me.
thank God i have a scanner now! it sure came in handy last night. i get off of the LIRR at atlantic avenue to catch a uptown 4 to Grand Central to begin my Metro North Machine operation duties. i turn on the A Division dispatcher to train channel and i hear the following:
"ATTENTION ALL ROAD CREWS, DUE TO A CONSTRUCTION ACCIDENT IN THE TIMES SQUARE AREA AND 7 AV, NORTHBOUND 1,2,3 HAVE SERVICE CHANGES. NORTHBOUND 2 WILL OPERATE VIA LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE BETWEEN NEVINS AND 149TH. NORTHBOUND 3 WILL BE TURNED AT 14TH STREET. THERE IS A 1 SHUTTLE BETWEEN CHAMBERS STREET AND SOUTH FERRY. SOUTHBOUND 1,2,3 WILL BE TURNED AT 96TH STREET. SITUATION IS EXPECTED TO LAST UNTIL 2300 HOURS. THE TIME IS NOW 2110"
upon Reaching Grand Central, my crew room is right by the shuttle passage. i see a sign displayin
NO SHUTTLE SERVICE OR 7 SERVICE TO TIMES SQUARE
ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?
Do you ever look to see what else might be on SubTalk before you post? Here's one of at least two other threads on the subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The seats are all gray except for one section, where a seat is a light greenish color (the color looks like the color on station pillars at 71 Av). I suppose a section of that seat was somehow destroyed and replaced with a new one, but I don't get why that section is in green.
Green was the original color of the seats on the r-32s.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the original color of the seats was light blue, matching the color of the interior.
According to my copy of the "Passenger Car Data Book -1947 - 1976", the R-32 seats were originally aqua. Some may consider this a shade of green while others may see it as blue. (Same as one of my bikes. The bike is TEAL. Some say green - DMV says blue)
I'd define the color more as baby blue with a touch of green. The 38, 40 and 42's had the samer color seats. The R26/27/28/29/30 had pinkish seats. Or was that color closer to salmon?
Does this mean that a seat may have been cannibalized from a Redbird (R-26-30, R33, R36) to replace a damaged seat? I see the similarities, and some of those cars did have green seats.
That second car was a Redbird (R-33, I think, but possibly not).
Nope that was an R-29 WH on the Pelham Local. Though I could be wrong. The Westinghouse R-29's were the only cars that had "white" emergancy brake stickers with red lettering. Did any one notice that?
D.
The R26/28/29/30/33's had the "coral" (I still say pink) seats originally. The R32/38/40/42's had the light blue seats.
I can't confirm what the R36's originally had, pink or blue.
The R-36's had the greyish green seats. Though I could be wrong about that too. I think pink seats would've thown off the "at the time" colorful interior.
D.
Did the R36 World's Fair cars and the R36 Main Line cars have the same seat colors?
Yes. Even though the interior walls and doors of the R-33/36 WF cars were closer in color to the R-32s than they were to the mainline IRT cars, all the seats in the R-29/33/36 cars were the same gray color, no matter whether they were MLs or WFs.
So the R29/33/36 had grey seats from the beginning? Only the R26/28's had the pink seats?
Yes. The R-29s debuted both the red paint exteriors and the blue interiors with the gray seats, but the mainline R-29/33/36 cars were painted a darker blue than the R-33WF/36WF trains. But all were given the gray seats, while the R-32s were painted roughly the same color inside as the World's Fair cars, but were given seats that matched the color of the walls. The R-38/40/42s would continue that tradition of matching the seat colors to the walls, though obviously after the R-38s the interior seat molding forms were changed (for the worse).
That's interesting. The R26/28's had the pink seats, and were manufactured by ACF. The R29/R33's had grey seats and were manufactured by St. Louis. The R27/R30's had the ACF's cars pinkish seats, yet were manufactured by St. Louis, which put grey seats in it's contemporary IRT cars.
Strange.
IIRC, the R-27-30s and the R-26/28s also shared similar floor tile patterns, which had a few darker tiles scattered among lighter colored ones on the floor. With the arrival of the R-29s, the pattern changed to where the darker color ties dominated, and were layed out along the main walking patters -- at the doors and through the middle of the cars -- while the lighter color tiles, which showed dirt more, were put on the floor alongside the car's seats.
As with the blue walls, that continued through the delivery of the R-42 cars, after which the MTA came down with a severe case of Ronanitis when it came time to draw up the interior/exterior plans for the R-44 and R-46 cars ("Damn it, we're a State Agency, and we're going to put the state seal on the walls of ever single car so people will never forget it!")
Look at the bright side: the walls are not scratch-ifitied on the R44/46. No other cars in the fleet (except the R142/143) can claim that.
R-26 and R-28 cars had coral seats.
R-29 through R-36 cars had dark gray seats.
R-32 through R-42 cars had aqua seats.
David
Is that lower photo from an R-26 or R-28? They had those puke-pink colored seats; it looks as though the grey paint has worn off.
Must've been, then. I don't have a car number or even a route number, and I can't identify the station from the photo.
Here's another shot of the car that may cause seasickness:
That's an example of what a train looks like from the eyes of a drunk......
LOL!
I'm not sure if you're referring to this photo or the photo in your previous post, but in this picture it looks like its a #6 at Brooklyn Bridge.
I concur.
Probably a leftover (non-GOHed?) seat from an R-32 or R-38. As has already been mentions, the R-26/27/28/30 trains had the salmon pink seats, while the R-29/33/36s had the gray plastic seats and the R-32/38s the light blue, all of which were interchangable between cars (and especially during the bad old days of the late 1970s, often were).
The R-40/42s also had the light blue seats, but the molding was different and wouldn't fit in the R-26 though R-38 seat frames.
They called it "CORAL".
wayne
Then aren't they turning the wrong cars into REEFS?
Well, the R26/28 have been seeing Davy Jones' locker as of late, so I guess the coral seats make nice "reefs".
wayne
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
That's an Odd Couple Car (with hubby #3862), so having an odd seat wouldn't surprise me.
That sounds like the original (aqua) color, maybe they failed to enamel it upon GOH. Don't forget, under that dull grey lies the original 1965 aqua.
wayne
"That sounds like the original (aqua) color, maybe they failed to enamel it upon GOH."
They didn't forget to enamel any seats during the GOH. Possibly the original enameled seat was removed by vandals and a spare seat from a scrapped R-32/38 was installed so the train could be returned to service.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw that seat the other day. South motor on the R. Sticks out like a sore thumb. The strange thing about this seat is that it really appeared to be a VIRGIN. No scratches, no foreign paint, super clean. Only Jamaica barn I suppose knows where they found it. Love that color.
How many different railroad signals are there? Are the standard ones used on the NEC? What does each of them stand for?
Two signals I distinctly remember are two, red lights across, and two green lights on the top and bottom in a diagonal slant to the right.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Each of the "old railrodas" ie PRR, NYC, B&O etc. etc. had their own way of making signals. LIRR-PRR used to use "position Signals" where in all of the lights were a whiteish-yellow, but they were aligned up and down (clear); diagonal (restricting); and horizontal (stop) When the stop aspect was siaplayed a single separate lamp indicates that it was in gact permissible to stop and then proceed with caution, expecting to stop within your line of sight.
B&O (IIRC) used the same position scheme, but with only two lamps instead of three, but the lamps were colored (green, yellow, or red) according to the position assumed by the signal.
NYC used single searchlites, capable of displaying red, yellow, or green.The multiple heads found on these signals represented either distant signals or diverging routes, but someone else will need to fill in the details here.
Since then, railroads have been replacing the traditional signals with something else, and the workings and arrangements of these signals is unknown to me.
Elias
The B&O also had a lunar white signal at the top of the mast that would sometimes be illuminated. If it was illuminated with two green bulbs, it meant clear (run at maximum authorized speed). It the lunar white light WASN'T illuminated but the two green bulbs were lit, the signal was slow clear.
Michael
Washington, DC
Not SLOW CLEAR, SLOW APPROACH SLOW. The B&O CPL's were more were position lights in the true sence of the word. The single main head was modified by one of 6 possible market lights each in a different position in relation to the main head. The PRR system basically just replaced a colour light with bar of amber lights in a one to one correspondance.
What do you mean by signals? There are signal aspects or indications which are what a signal shows. There are the different physical styles of signal.
The signals on the NEC are colourized Pennsylvania RR Position Lights that display 16 of the 23 standard NORAC signal aspects (dwarfs displaying 2 additional ones).
you can find a list of the NORAC aspects at: http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/norac/index.html
As for signal styles there are:
PRR Amber PL
N&W Amber PL
Amtrak Colourized PL
N&W Colourized PL
B&O CPL
NYC V-stlye target
Reading V-style target with lousange restricting head
Michagan Central small target searchlight
Generic large target searchlight
C&O large target traffic light
Southern small target traffic light
SafeTran hooded small target traffic light (aka the "hooded serpent")
CNW Horizontally mounted traffic light
Upper Quadrant 3-position Semaphores
Lower Quadrant 2-position Semaphores
Ball signals
Transit Style in-line traffic light signals
SafeTran Unilense signals
Single Unit colourlight dwarf (2 or 3 lights)
Modular dwarf signals
PRR Position Dwarf
B&O CPL dwarf
Searchlight dwarf
Stacked searchlight dwarf
PRR Position Light Pedistal signals
Penn Station "Key" Colour Light Signals
Mike summed up your types of signals rather well. Here are the NORAC signal aspects so you can research the subject on your own to answer these questions.
http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/norac/
How frequently do freights run on the NEC? I spotted a long CONRAIL train heading towards Linden on track 1 (n/b local track). Is it only making a trip to the storage yard in Linden? Also, I am aware of a CONRAIL stop at Metuchen. Is there a company that intercepts CONRAIL material here?
Conrail Does Not Exist Anymore. Its Either NS Or CSX.
"Conrail Does Not Exist Anymore. Its Either NS Or CSX."
Incorrect. Conrail does exist, albeit not as its former self. It is a more limited joint venture operation of CSX and NS headquartered in Center City Philadelphia.
The name is Conrail Shared Assets A(something). It controls most of the former CR trackage in New Jersey and around Detriot.
Correct.
The name is Conrail Shared Assets Organization (CSAO).
I photographed a Conrail caboose which had just been uncoupled from a freight train on the NEC by Millham Tower in Trenton. I was on my way to East Trenton to photograph scrapped SEPTA Almond Joys.
Was there anything salvagable in those almond joy shells?
I couldn't tell from my vantage point. I couldn't see any more than what the photos show.
Does anyone know the reason for this joint venture, as opposed to each RR operating under it's own name.
There would have been places where either CSX or NS would have had a monopoly had either of them obtained Conrail's property, so to maintain competition, CSAO was formed so that both railroads still operate in those areas.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Peace,
ANDEE
Thats wrong, Conrail still exists.
For those who ride Acela Express (or others), take advantage of this offer by riding the new 8:30p departure from Washington to New York. The train is #2118 and will last until April 25, 2003. The fare is $59 one-way from DC to NY, and cheaper for intermediate stops. For those who used to see Acela Express fares as being too much, here's a chance for you.
What happened to these cars?
AND... What is happening in the piucture?,(it is between an arnine and a lowv)
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6141.jpg
If those are the two revenue collector cars ex #66 & #67, they were both scrapped.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just E of the 69/Fisk station on the 7, the line crosses over the BQE and a single track rail line. This track is run-down and in sorry shape, with trash, debris and litter everywhere. Who uses this track? I think it is CSX.
That line goes over the Hell Gate Bridge, and was known as the NY Connecting Railroad a long time ago. It goes through Queens, then Brooklyn, and finally winds up in Bush terminal in Brooklyn's waterfront. Follow it by using a map of the five boroughs.
Part of the line is owned by New York & Atlantic Raulway and I remember was, in the films, "Sweet and Lowdown" and "The Yards".
NY&A owns no rails of its own. MTA/LIRR still ownes all the tracks.
Sorry, I got confused.
The stretch from Hell Gate Bridge to Fresh Pond is either CSX or NS (whichever is the successor to Conrail - does anyone know exactly which one)? From Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge it is the NY & Atlantic.
The stretch from Hell Gate Bridge to Fresh Pond is either CSX or NS (whichever is the successor to Conrail - does anyone know exactly which one)? From Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge it is the NY & Atlantic.
Until Fremont (Fresh Pond Jucntion) the line belongs to CSX, formerly Penn Central, formerly still - The New Haven Railroad.
The rest of the line to Bay Ridge, although used by the NY&A still is owned by the LIRR.
I think NY&A just operates. LIRR owns the track.
CSX owns the track Looks like second track may be added? theres a bunchof brand new ties laying around with the fresh smell of tar on em AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! also CP and P&W also use this line CP 3 times a week P&W seasonal summer mostly.
It's operated as part of the Bay Ridge line. NY& A calls the entire line the "connecting railroad".
Does this line go over a viaduct that passes over Queens Blvd? That viaduct doesn't seem to be in good shape as trees have started to grow along it.
On Queens Blvd area there are 3 RR viaducts that cross over. One is the LIRR Main Line, the 2nd is the LIRR going to Port Washington and the 3rd is the old NY Connecting RR which is the one we're talking about in this thread.
Ok thanks.
Isn't the Connecting RR's viaduct the most elaborate and ornate one? I seem to remember the city forcing whomever owned the line in the 30's to build it that way.
While we're on this subject, what is that track part of? The track runs in a submerged trench and the 2/5 cross over it after rising from underground north of 3rd Ave. Part of Metro North?
I think it's the old connection to the old IRT 3rd Ave El.
No, it's an unelectrified single track line, like the Bay Ridge LIRR.
That is the old CR Port Morris Branch Line which connects Metro North RR north of the Melrose Station to the Oak Point Freight Yard on the North East Corridor. Prior to the opening of the Oak Point Connector around the Harlem River, freights travelled this way.
-Stef
Ahhh, thanks. I guessed it was some sort of connection to the Oak Park Yard, but wasn't sure.
It is the Port Morris Branch of the old NY Central.
It dead ends at the River for the one time Caf float ops of the NY Central.
It was electrified (3rd rail) up until the late 60's.
The MTA is really pushing for the death of the token, and once the new fare hike is in place, wave bye to the token, so pick up your token, save it, polish it. If you don't have 1, get 1. Hopefully the token wont die with this oncoming fare hike.
Yo, Christopher! OT (my only token is from my first visit in 1969), but now that I have yr attention, did u get my email? I have the subway map u need for the SAS -- .pdf format, can alter at will.
The Transit Museum my start selling them individually, or as part of various trinkets...
May 1st? The fare hikes begin a month earlier than that, if approved tomorrow. -Nick
Why would you say that? Most transit systems don't bring out a new token w/ each fare increase. The money lost from hoarding is negligible.
New York played the game for years. Dime-sized, Nickel-sized, QUARTER sized with or without "Y hole" ... and folks'd hoard 'em only to have to cash them in anyway. Although there was a period of time where they went back and forth between two of them almost every other year and dang if there weren't folks keeping a stash. :)
Dear Transit workers,
I am still trying to find out what happens to all of the discarded MetroCards people put in the box below the "readers."
Are they just thrown out by the station cleaners?
I need a bunch of them, and would like to know what department to contact.
Help!
Subway grrl
There are magnents under the lid of the box. It erases any value or infomation that is on it. The computer can still read the card. But the infomation is usually scattered like crazy. They are supposed to be thrown out. Sometimes people do not put the cards in the box. They jam them in the slot or leave them on top of the reader.
If you need a bunch of empty MetroCards, go to the nearest term. or local/express station, and you can pick them up off the floor all over the place. People can't exert themselves to carry them to the box or garbage cans. I've even seen them on the roadbed...
My problem is, I need a constant and reliable source!
Whose job is it at the TA, to empty the boxes? Is it the station cleaners? Are they ever recycled by the TA?
I want to contact the department that deals with the ones people put
in the boxes?
Help!
Cards are taken out of the bozes and put in the garbage. You want to keep a card? you can ask the cleaner for a few. But if you want a card that is constant and reliable, get it at the booth. Keep in mind a Pay-Per-ide card can be refilled.
I think she means she wants a "constant and reliable" source of used metrocards (which are free). Maybe this has to do with her NYC Subway Lines product line?
---Brian
What does she want the cards for?
Yes, you got it!
I want to sell my Subway Bags with an empty MetroCard in the MetroCard
pocket, so folks can see what the pocket is for. I also have another
idea for using them I am working on.
So, the routine is to put them in the trash? I wonder who I could talk with to authorize collecting them for me. I am an official licensee, and royalties from sales of my product go to support the
NY Transit Museum...
They don't already come with an empty card in them? I thought they did. Oh well. I've kept an empty card in there for the last two years and no one has stolen it yet.
Whenever we can find them, we sell them that way. But often we run out. We need the right connection.
Who can help?
Subway grrl
P.S. I recommend people just turn the bag flap toward their body to
avoid theft - plus, that velcro closure is vicious... and LOUD!
Thanks for buying a bag!!
Have you tried contacting the NYCTA PR dept?
I would ask them first.
Or you can buy $3 Metrocards from the outside vendors (stores) and put those cards in the little windows on your bag. You might have to charge $3 more per bag!
Nobody wants to pay the extra money!
They do steal the empty ones out of the pockets in the stores though!
Neither the P.R. dept, nor the Transit Museum seems to know anything
about this. I had a source for a while. I paid 3 cents per card.
When he retired, I never could find another source. (He was the guy who sold them to the outside vendors, for the MTA.)
The frustration is how segregated the information flow is there sometimes! That's why I am asking for help here!
Subway grrl
Surprising that they didn't have a lead on that. All the token booths get bunches of new empty Metrocards. There must be a way to get them through the TA. Good luck!
Perhaps the office of public relations could put you in touch with the manufacturer of the cards. I mean, they don't have a value until the station agent places a value on it, so perhaps you might be able to get sent 1,000 blank cards directly from the manufacturer.
I actually asked McDonalds for a bunch of empty french fry baskets to use in my daughter's camp costume last year, and they gave me an entire sleeve. She won 2nd place going as a basket of french fries!
--Mark
>>> I mean, they don't have a value until the station agent places a value on it, so perhaps you might be able to get sent 1,000 blank cards directly from the manufacturer. <<<
Hey Mark, how about sending me 100 of your blank checks. They have no value until you fill in the numbers and sign them. :-)
Tom
Touche!
--Mark
You need to make a friend at your local bus depot.
When the fleet comes back the "Capture Bin" is full of MCs & Transfers. So, you would need someone, on their lunch hour, to go thru the fleet & empty the bins.
The friend would be a Station Agent with the key to the box.
Officially I'll bet they say "NO" :-(
You want to recycle used MetroCards, whereas the TA justs dumps them in the garbage. You might talk to a reporter, or someone in public relations at the MTA. I'm sure the head honchos would just LOVE being called pro-garbage.
*Sigh* Instead of running around for used ones, simply use a paper or cardboard insert of a fake Metrocard. It makes more sense. Though if you run senseless all around NYC, be my guess.
Ohhh. I see a new fashion statement coming from subway grrl. Will it be a dress made of real MetroCards?
Giggle, perhaps I should do a dress made of tokens instead. One would
have to work out for quite a while to be able to walk in it though!
Metrocard earrings!
Peace,
ANDEE
Token earrings would make better sense... :)
I have sent you an E-mail with a contact name.
Peace,
ANDEE
LEO SAYS GER!
The MT Metrocards go the Empty A.
There is some sort of work being done just before the manhattan-bound plat of the Jay St. station. It looks like some sort of new structure is being built. Anyone know what it is? Could it be the new interlocking machine replacing the lost bergen one? Any answer appreciated. thanks.
At the north end they're rebuilding the tower. If that will replace the tower at Bergen, I don't know.
We alway's make some fun posts here on Subtalk, anything from trivia to equipment. I figure I try to make a little some thing different for a change.
Welcome to the TRAINMASTER SCENARIO game. What I will do is create a situation, and you will create the G.O. or reroute based on your opinion, expertise, and imagination. But remember, you are the trainmaster of the following division. Use any means to keep your trains running, or most importantly, keep passengers on the move. Here's your first scenario. Good luck SubTalkers.
BMT Southern Division
Location: DeKalb Ave
Situation:
A massive summer thunderstorm appears out of nowhere around 16:35. Lightning strikes have shorted out signals, switches and power to the Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton Lines. Rush Hour service includes trains from Nassau St, Broadway via tunnel and bridge, and 6 Ave via bridge. Following routes are as follows:
D 6 Ave Exp to Coney Island via Brighton Local
Q Broadway Express via Brighton Exp to Brighton Beach
M Nassau St Local to Coney Island via Brighton Exp
B 6 Ave Exp to Coney Island via West End-4 Ave Local
R Broadway Local to 95 St via 4 Ave Local
N Broadway Exp to Coney Island via Sea Beach Skip-Stop-4 Ave Exp
W Broadway Local to Coney Island via Sea Beach Skip-Stop-4 Ave Exp
By your gut instinct, plan your reroutes and detours, whatever it takes. You are the BMT Trainmaster.
HAVE FUN!!
>B and D trains turned at 34/6 and sent back north.
>J serice normal. M trains turned at Myrtle-B'way or Chambers St.
>N and R service turned at Whitehall or Canal Sts and sent back north.
>R service in Brooklyn running from 95/4 to Pacific St and customers advised to transfer to IRT or Transfer at 9 St to transfer to F.
>Q, W, D, N and B service in Brooklyn suspended. If shuttle service can be set up, do it. On extended headways and depending the limits of the outage Q/D service Stillwell to Atlantic Ave or Prospect Park. N, W or B service shuttle from Stillwell to 59/4 or 36/4. Customers are advised to take the F line or the IRT 2,3,4, and 5 service. Expect delays.
Turn B & D at 34/6 back north.
M train runs to 95st.
N/R/W/Q service halted at brooklyn. N/R/W trains turn at Pacific and 36st (alternate service possible? maybe like every other train to ease the load). Customers urged to use IRT. All leftover buses at all brooklyn, queens, and manhattan bus depots are sent to Brooklyn. Depending on how many buses are available, shuttle them on the downed lines.
Let's just hope that doesn't happen.
In case of such an outage, would there be any service at Dekalb?
I actually based this on the 1992 December nor'easter where I was stranded at Kings Highway on the Brighton line. While there was no lightning involved, the only line that was running was the F Culver line. Majority of BMT Southern Division was out. At this time, I was a sophmore at James Madison HS, and thank goodness I had very good knowledge of subway travel. I had to walk from Quentin Road and Bedford Ave to McDonald Ave and Kings Highway in the wind-driven rain. Not easy with a backpack full of textbooks and a looseleaf binder that had gotten damp from all the rain. I was afraid at the time to buy a Jansport bag because at the time, they were being stolen from students at an alarming rate for no apparent reason. And those bags have the best waterproofing around. Didn't buy a Jansport until Junior Year. By that time, I was huge, and wasn't afraid of anyone or any weapon they might have on them.
well for radical, you can have all 6th av trains diverted to to the culver, or fulton
nassau street-broad street
broadway train turning at dekalb or whitehall, canal maybe too
It looks like we have a trainmaster here. You are the only one at this time to mention the reroute of 6 Ave trains via Culver.
F trains would be running over Culver anyway. I would assume IND service was not affected by the summer storm. B and D service coming from the Bronx would be turned at 34/6 or maybe 2nd Ave and sent back north. If you tried to send all that to Culver via the F line there would be congestion.
(B) terminates at W4th St before heading back North
(D) switched to 6th Avenue Local and diverted to CI via Culver
(M) terminates at 36th St (via 4th Avenue Express) before heading back North
(N) terminates at Whitehall St before heading back North
(Q) No Service
(R) Unchanged
(W) No Service
Kind of a tough one here. Remember, you are trying to keep rush hour service running.
All the posts were great. Here would be my solution:
B service would terminate at 2 Ave*, D trains would run along Culver Line with F to Coney Island to supplement Brighton and Sea Beach trains. Requires help from IND Trainmaster.
Q service may possibly be turned at Prospect Park if the outage doesn't affect the interlocking here. If that isn't possible, all Q service will be suspended and passengers will be advised to use the IRT Nostrand Ave line which is not really a long distance from some Brighton Line stations. Franklin Shuttle will be closed as a safety precaution.
M service suspended between Chambers St and Coney Island.
N service operates to 95 Street-Fort Hamilton via 4 Ave local
W service operates between Ditmars Blvd and Canal St, relaying on lower level City Hall tracks.
R service unaffected.
Grand St station closed.
All Manhattan Bridge service suspended.
Shuttle Bus service from Flatbush Ave station on 2 and 5 to serve Brighton stations from Ave H to Stillwell.
Shuttle Bus to serve West End and Sea Beach lines from 9 Ave station. Most likely, this area will be unaffected, but you never know. Shuttle train will run between 36 Street and 9 Ave. If unable to, buses will start from 36 St and 4 Ave.
Free transfers to any intersecting bus route from Culver Line stations that intersect with other lines e.g. Ave U B3 bus connects with Sea Beach, Brighton lines' Ave U station and 25 Ave station on West End line.
* No V trains. Line was discontinued.
-Terminate en-route Rs at Whitehall, W at Canal St (relay @ City Hall) and M at Chambers.
-Send the N through the tunnel via 4 Av to 95 St. Local stops in Brooklyn.
-Terminate the B at 2nd Avenue.
-Send the D via local to 59th Street (transfer to F @ 9th St for Coney Island). Turn trains around by switching to express track, wrong-rail north up to 36th Street, then switch back over, run express northbound (is this possible? maybe there're marker signals)
-Send Q trains to 36th Street/4th Ave (express)
I'm not sure about the wrong-railing south on the northbound express tracks. Check out my solution. Also remember that you are handling rush hour traffic.
I figured the BMT crisis mentioned above was quite the tough one. But I have seen some good trainmaster skills here. Let's move on with Scenario II:
IRT Division
West Side Lines
Location: Chambers Street
Friday afternoon about 17:05. Southbound 3 train made up of 10 R62A cars dies just north of the Wall Street station. At the same time, an emergency brake application occurs on a Northbound 2 train at Hoyt Street in Brooklyn on a 10 car train of R142's. While enough impatience is occuring amongst the straphangers, the gap fillers at South Ferry malfunction in the closed position, yet the gap signal holds at a steady red. Repair crews are stranded in traffic and trains are backed up as far as 14 Street. And to add a little spice, the crossovers at Chambers St are being rebuilt.
Let's see the IRT Trainmaster come out of you on this one. If BMT was tough, try this one!
My response:
1 is turned at Times Square, use downtown express track at 34th st for layup
2 is diverted to 4/5 lines from Atlantic to 149th/GC in both directions.
3 is turned at 34th st/Penn Station, use Uptown express track for layover.
every other 4 train in Brooklyn goes to New Lots
suspend all #9 trains
If I was the trainmaster at Times Square tower, I'd expect my counterpart at Grand Central Master to reroute all 4 trains to New Lots or Utica. But I would have 1 trains from 242/VC go south and turn at 14 St or Rector St.
(1)(9) suspended between 14th St and South Ferry
(2) some trains re-routed via Lexington Avenue Line (but it is 17:05), others terminate at 34/7
(3) suspended between 34th St and New Lots
(4) extended to New Lots in place of (3), local South of Atlantic Avenue
(5)<5>(6)<6>(7)<7> unchanged
Why suspend 1 service south of 14/7? The blockage is south of Chambers St. Have alternate 1 trains turned at 14/7 or at Rector St. Of course 3 service would be suspended in Brooklyn. But that is I'd expect my counterpart in Brooklyn to do.
Westside IRT service on extended headways. Dependant on how service can be turned. Customers advised to use the IRT or BMT service. All 2 trains rerouted over the 5 line from the Bronx to Brooklyn in both directions. 3 Trains run 148/Lenox to Chambers St. With the crossover at Chambers being OOS, have the southbound 3 trains turn at 42 and go back north. 1 trains run 242/VC to Rector St. If the repair crews are stranded in traffic, get another crew. Call Police on 6-wire to help in crowd control.
Hook down stop arm on gap filler signal to allow trains use of the loop. 1 Trains bypass South Ferry for duration.
3 train at Wall is discharged, S/B train at Fulton is discharged, keys up to rear of disabled 3, adds IRON and AIR ONLY and pushes disabled train to New Lots Yard. Any trains south of 14 St stack up, trains north of 14 turn at 14 or 34. 3 service suspended both directions. When disabled consist clears Wall St interlocking, stacked trains allowed to turn back north at Wall St. Alternate 4 trains extended to New Lots.
Northbound 2 trains sent north via Lex. N/B 3 trains south of Atlantic turned on spur at Nevins. BIE should take no more than 20 minutes to find and reset - two 2 trains re-routed, one 3 turned back south before problem on N/B track clears. Nevins Tower makes announcements to use M, N, R, Q, W for Manhattan due to service delays.
I'll assume that the two stalled trains can't be moved and that the malfunctioning stoparm can't be hooked down.
1: Skip-stop suspended. Most trains run to Rector, relaying south of the station. Others run express from 72 to 42 (SB only) and terminate on the NB express track at 34.
2: SB normal. NB via East Side from Nevins to 149-GC. A separate single-track shuttle runs between Fulton and Chambers on the NB track to give NB passengers access to the West Side.
3: 148-LT to 96 only, turning on the NB express track.
4: Increased headways, to make room for 2. Bronx passengers directed to B/D.
5: Diamond-5 service to Nereid suspended (but NB trains to Dyre still run express in the Bronx) to make room for 2 in Manhattan. All trains diverted to New Lots, via local in Brooklyn -- transfer to/from 2 for Flatbush service.
C: Decreased headways, to carry spillover from 1/2/3/9. If necessary, terminate the extras at 2nd Avenue.
D: Express service reversed in the Bronx -- NB local and SB express -- to accomodate displaced 4 passengers at local stops.
The dominant flow on the Q in the afternoon rush is SB, so it should be able to accomodate displaced NB IRT passengers with no changes.
Oh, sorry, I thought the dead 3 train was on the NB track. (I wondered why you needed two blockages on the same track.)
That makes the Chambers-Fulton shuttle even more important.
You guys are getting the hang of it. Very creative stuff here. I had just realized that I should have used the "Desk trainmaster" for these scenarios, but you guys get the idea. At how I see things here, you guys would make excellent trainmasters for NYCTA.
Here's the final one fellas. Good luck.
IND Division
Location: Jay Street-Borough Hall
G.O. #123.4 was issued for the weekend inspection of the Rutgers Street tube, requiring F trains both N/B and S/B to run through the Cranberry St tube via the A line to West 4 St. 2 work trains occupy the north Rutgers tube at this time at 13:20. South tube will be inspected the following day. Around 14:00, a smoke condition due to a track fire on the BMT tracks at Fulton Street cause the Broadway-Nassau platform to fill up with smoke. The smoke travels to the Eastside IRT platforms as well as the Westside IRT platforms. But the smoke becomes more intense at Bdwy-Nassau and moves north to Chambers and South into the tube towards High Street. Use your best judgement on this one.
To add some pepper on this, we will follow the current subway service with the north side of the Manhattan Bridge closed as well as the Stillwell rebuilding project.
Have fun on this one, and good luck!
Since the area affected on the BMT side is closed (no weekend J service at Fulton or Broad) we can try this plan
East Side IRT:
ALL SERVICE ENDS AT Brlyn Bridge, use City Hall loop, run all 4 and 5 trains on local track from 125 to BB. #4 in Brooklyn runs frm Bowing Green to Brooklyn, issue Blocks at Bowling Green. Layup the #3 trains in Brooklyn on express track to Franklin, as #4 runs lcal to New Lots
West Side IRT:
#2 turns at Chambers, #3 turns at 34th st-Penn station, #2 runs local from 96th st to 14th st
A and C service ends at Utica Ave from Queens In Manhattan, discharge all C trains and have the A run local from 59th to West 4th st only. Discharge at West 4th st, run lite to 2nd Ave, relay then run lite ac to West 4th st, local to 207th on regular route.
Request special approval from IND Southern Div to run F trains S/B thrugh Rutgers (cannot do N/B because of work trains). N/B F trains use G crosstwn tracks from Bergen to QP.
J and M service is not affected. As a precautionary measure, since the smoke condition may spill over to Cortlandt St, have R and W run over Bridge.
Cortlandt St will not be affected, too far away. The other divisions are for mentioning the scenario only. You are the IND trainmaster who should only solve the IND situation. The F via Crosstown was a good move. However, you posted it for northbound moves only. How about the southbound trains?
Overall, you did very well.
Your score(1-100)
92
Suspend the GO. It's only an inspection; get those work trains out of the way. Then start running all A, C, and F trains via Rutgers (A local south of 59 -- any stray expresses terminate at Canal). The E can probably continue to run to WTC; if not, turn on the spur track south of Canal.
I assume the smoke at the two IRT stations is too thick to allow trains to run through. Here's how I'd handle the IRT:
1: No changes.
2N: Bronx to Chambers, turning on the SB express track. If possible, Park Place is served by a single-track shuttle on the NB track.
2S: Atlantic to Flatbush, via Brooklyn express. Wall, Clark, and Hoyt are closed.
3N: 148-LT to South Ferry.
3S: No service. Any SB 3 trains stranded south of Fulton run in service to New Lots. NB 3 trains south of Atlantic turn there and run light to New Lots. NB 3 trains between Atlantic and Fulton stay in service as far as they can and then wait wherever they are for the condition to clear.
4N: Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge.
4S: Wall to New Lots, via Brooklyn local.
5N: Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge.
5S: No service. If one 5 train is stranded south of Fulton, lay it up on the inner South Ferry loop. If more than one 5 train is stranded, run them up the West Side to the yard.
6: No changes.
Not bad at all. That's the way to go. You have the expertise of being a trainmaster. Just as a note, this scenario, you are the IND trainmaster. BMT and IRT have to fend for themselves. Only solve your IND services. But you did good. Not many would think to suspend the GO.
Job well done.
Your score(1-100)
98
Talk about 'never gonna happen', heh. For the record, smoke doesn't just spread like that, but let's play along on this one. I'm assuming that ur point is to make the Fulton st/bdwy-nass station unusable.
IRT-
(1)-no change
(2)/(3)-Bronx/uptown to 42nd st. service to bklyn, xfer to bdway trains. downtown, xfer to 1.
(4)-to bronx to BB.
(5)-Dyre to E180 st
(6)-no change
(7)-no change
BMT-
(J)-Chambers st relay likely unsafe. Trains terminate at Canal st.
IND-
(A)-runs in 2 sections:
from 207 st to Canal st, local, using track D5 N of chambers to relay.
&
From Far Rock or Lefferts blvd to Jay st., local. Free xfers handed out at Jay st to Lawrence St R/W service.
(B)-since this is the weekend, there is no service.
(C)-service suspended
(D)-extended to w4th, lcl.
(E)-at W4th, trains switch to 6th av line, terminate at 2nd av.
(F)-runs via crosstown line.
GO-123.4 to be cancelled immediately. work trains moved to 2nd av. after this is completed, the following changes:
(A)- all stops from 207th st to Far Rock/lefferts. Via rutgers
(D)- to 34/6th
(E)-to Canal, turning on D5
(F)-normal service restored.
Lets keep in mind though that smoke rises. in reality, such a situation is virtually impossible. And how long would this suspend service? Not for more than 4 hours.
I hear you on that. No, I'm not looking to make Fulton-Nassau unusable. And I know smoke will not spread that way. But you pulled a good reroute for your IND trains. After all, this scenario was for the IND trainmaster. You included solutions for the BMT and IRT which were not part of this scenario, but it's cool. You did good.
Your score(1-100)
96
I have a feeling you have a hard-on for the BMT. Try the BMT situation which is the first scenario on the Trainmaster Game posts. It's kind of hard, but focus on the BMT reroutes and include solutions with permission from IRT and IND trainmasters. I have a feeling you'll like that one. And it is hard.
Bklyn
Firstly, as it's only an inspection, I'd get those work trains out of the Rutgers St tube and lay them up on the 6th Av Express tracks North of West 4th St.
Then:
(A) 207 - Far Rockaway or Lefferts, Local 145th-W4th Sts, diverted via Rutgers St tubes
(B) BPB - 34/6, Express 145th-34th (switching A and B on CPW, although less than ideal for the convenience of passengers, will avoid congestion at 59th St)
(C) 2 segments: 168 - WTC, High St Bklyn Bridge - Euclid
(D) No Change
(E) Express on 8th Avenue (get it out of the way of the A and C locals), terminating at Canal St
(F) Normal Service
(G) Normal Service
(S) Grand St Normal Service
(S) Rock Pk Normal Service
The solution has some potential. You may need to rethink the 8 Ave line reroute a bit. Won't give tips. This was your gig, and you came out ok.
Your score(1-100)
82
As the IND Desk Superintendant, I would NEVER have allowed such a GO to be written in the first place. GOs of this nature are ALWAYS written so that service is suspended in only one direction at a time. If I was stupid enough to let such a GO happen, I hope my replacement would just cancel the GO.
Simple...
Turn southbound #1/9 trains at Rector Street.
Turn en-route southbound #2 and all #3 trains at 14 St.
Run #2 trains on #5 line.
Run #3 trains en-route in Brooklyn on the #5 line up to E 180 St; take out of service.
Oh, snap...forgot about New Lots!!! #4 trains would run local from Franklin-Utica and on to New Lots Ave.
Also, if the turnback at Rector is inaccessible (or was removed) then the #1 would turn at 14th, the #3 would turn at 34th.
It takes a real buff to figure how to do the reroutes on the scenarios I put in front of you. I think all of you did great. I know the BMT scenario was hard, but I couldn't resist. A similar situation did happen sort of this way, but I spiced it up a bit, maybe too much. The IRT and IND were difficult, but not as harsh as the BMT.
Overall score for everyone that played(1-100), everyone deserves 100, just for trying.
I want to thank all of you for playing. After many Transit Trivias and Q&A's, we tried something new here, based on stuff we already discuss, yet put ourselves in the seat of those who control everyday movement of subway trains.
Thanks again. And see you tomorrow.
BKLYN
Here's a link to a site about a subway system that ran in Rochester NY from 1927 - 1957 complete with pictures and links to more info:
http://www.infiltration.org/transit-roch.html
Fascinating stuff.
Bill
There's also a wonderful 45 minute video of the operation of the Rochester subway. It's been shown on the History Channel and can also be purchased.
The End of the Line
Judging from the video clip it was a trolley system that ran in parts underground.
Yes, that's correct... I have the video.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!) was really a pretty neat operation. It was built to enable the entrance of the interurban cars of New York State Railways' Rochester & Eastern division in a timely manner, but the R&E went out of business due to the depression. The subway was then operated for about 20 years or so using a small fleet of suburban MU cars brought in from Utica, basically beefed up streetcars. Those were really neat cars - single-ended Cincinnati cars with curved-equalizer trucks and GE type PC control. The subway also had some ancient looking curve-side cars early on, but I think those were gone by the early 1930's. One of the Rochester subway cars was saved completely intact by the local NRHS chapter, but it was severely deteriorated by weather during the years it was stored at Rail City. It's now at the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum just south of Rochester in a mostly-disassembled state. I hope that it gets put back to together one of these days - that's a real piece of history there. Sorry for the rambling...
Frank Hicks
>>>by Anon_e_mouse on Thu Mar 6 11:27:09 2003.
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!)<<<
I always thought of P.A.T.H. as the other NY subway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!)<<<
I always thought of P.A.T.H. as the other NY subway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry for the double posts, people. I'm working out issues with my new browser.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Rochester Subway story makes me sad. All the upstate cities are now places of little significance, and vitually no one moves there unless they are transferred there by one of the dwindling number of large employers. But it wasn't always so.
What if Rochester had kept its subway, with just a handful of trunk trolley lines, and extended it to some of the suburbs? It would be a different place today. It might even have more of a downtown.
They built that street running system in Buffalo, though it's not the same (though I'm glad to see that according to FTA data, after we ate the capital cost, the operating cost per ride is lower than the average Niagara Frontier bus).
Very interesting indeed!
Then make your next stop the Cincinatti Subway, and if you're NY inclined, get off at Brighton Station.
--Mark
I was looking at a map from who knows when and it had shown the Westend line running from 18th ave down to Bath ave, making several stops, the it looks like it reconnects at Bay 50th st
Is this correct, and if so, is there anything that would hint of this
on the current El structure?
I may be wrong about Bath Ave, but it was certainly south of 86th St.
When the West End line was first built, it ran a slightly different route than now. It changed when the line was built as an El.
Those were pre-1916 days, when BU's were running on the surface.
At that time, the West End ran down New Utrecht Avenue to Bath Avenue. At Bath, the 'el' shared trackage with a trolley line. All power was overhead.
The West End connected to the el network at 5th Avenue at 38th Street, where trains changed over to over-riding third rail, and the poles were tied down.
Evidence of the connection still exists just east of the present day 9th Avenue station.
ast of 9th Ave is the old connection to the Culver Shuttle. That area is like 38 St/10 Ave.
I see at Grant Avenue today that they have already installed the signage for the OPTO midnight shuttle between Euclid and Lefferts on the A line.
OPTO signs have been up for quite a while now.
I drove under the overpass which carries the abandoned ROW of the LIRR Rockaway Beach line over Union Turnpike and noticed another, narrower overpass a few hundred feet to the west. It seems to be at an angle to the larger overpass and doesn't seem any wider than 1 track. What on earth is it? A freight siding?
I drove under the overpass which carries the abandoned ROW of the LIRR Rockaway Beach line over Union Turnpike and noticed another, narrower overpass a few hundred feet to the west. It seems to be at an angle to the larger overpass and doesn't seem any wider than 1 track. What on earth is it? A freight siding?
The Vanderbilt Motor Parkway?
That's it. A beautiful bikeway/strollway) a couple of miles long, if I am not mistaken. It was used at one time for Model Ts.
I've walked it. Check it out when spring arrives. It's quite pretty.
Absolutely, but it's nowhere near the Rockaway Beach Branch and never crosses Union Turnpike.
I've been away too long...
Very pretty. The following page has a pic of it in Queens, and some others too.
http://www.nycroads.com/history/motor/
Nice page. But it didn't start anywhere near Union Turnpike and the LIRR Rockaway Beach ROW.
Indeed. I just saw the messages that says this crossing is near Woodhaven. The Vanderbilt ROW is in scenic country anyhow-definitely worth a stroll in the springtime, which is looking like its going to be a long time away with the snow coming down now.
I think you're talking about the the origional route for the line. Around Union Turnpike the line made a left hand turn to connect with the current Montauk line.
When the LIRR was first built (1834) the line went from Greenport to South Ferry, Brooklyn along Atlanic Ave in Brooklyn. Several years later about 1840's Brooklyn banned steam engines so the LIRR had to change their route. They went from Jamaica Station to LIC along the Montauk route. And in the early 1900's after PRR bought the LIRR was the current main route built Jamaica to Hunter's Point and into the tunnels.
Yeah. Freight trains used to run there all the time. And as someone said, it was used to connect the Rockaway ROW to the Montauk Line. I used explore those tracks every week during my little league days. I used to love throwing the switches.
Single track connection between the Montauk line and the old Rockaway line. Rockaway switch was in what is now the Crescent (apartments) parking lot adjacent to Union turnpike. Montauk switch was close to the grade crossing (88 St.). 3 or 4 frieght sidings were off of this short piece of trackage. If you look close, you may be able to see the bumping block of one of the sidings right next to the building, west of the bridge, north side of the turnpike. If you are in the area again, (you sound like you live in Woodhaven from your previous posts) drive on Woodhaven Blvd. northbound and go past Unoin Tpke. but don't go onto the bridge over the Montauk line. Keep to your right and go down that street next to the bridge with the homes on the right side. After the last house, there is a little clearing to the right with the ball fields in the distance. The track is visible in spots not far from the last house and to the right of the ballfields.
Yeah, I'm thinking of tresspassing on TA property. I've become very curious about the non-subway trackage in my area of Queens (I had no idea how much there was!). I've never been on the Rockaway ROW north of the now burned bridge which crossed over the Montauk ROW. If anyone knows of another upcoming walking tour, please let me know!
The part of the Rockaway Beach line not used by the A line ceased being MTA property a long time ago. The MTA, under some lease provision, returned it to the city, and they're now responsible for maintenance, etc.
I attended some of tonight's public hearing in Rockville. Since I have other things to attend to, I will post full details later on.
Funny Subway Quiz
-Harry
NYCrail.com- over 3,000 current NYC subway photos
I got:
"J/M/Z
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you. "
Amazing! I wouldn't have wanted any other lines to come up for me. It's sick that it got my lines! It's my favorite subway stoo! SICK, I tell you....
I got them too!
Although I use the A/C/E when I am in NYC
-Harry
That makes THREE of us.
Did you guys say you wouldn't pay the $12 too?
I was just at the Met yesterday. I didn't pay the $12. (I paid $5 for two.) So I can't say I'd pay the $12!
I got caught on the Starbuck's, natch. It assigned me to the "trendy" Sea Beach/West End.
Heh, I'm a free-wheeling F/V/B/D guy that "likes surrealistic fun at Coney Island" ... and while that IS true, none of those lines currently go to Coney Island :)
--Mark
This is what I got...
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
I got:
"J/M/Z
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you. "
Amazing! I wouldn't have wanted any other lines to come up for me. It's sick that it got my lines! It's my favorite subway lines too! SICK, I tell you....
Don't be too impressed, I'm thoroughly D train and it identified me as the J/M/Z as well. Methinks something's broken. Yeah, that's the D train. :)
Hehe, it seems like we're all stuck in the JMZ, although I just put in the total opposite of "me" in and got the 1,2,3,9 lines.....
(and I kinda like that line too), but I guess it's not broken.
Heh, I got J/M/Z too, even though my home line is apparently the total opposite.
I got 1/2/3. No J/Z for Jay Zee! Oopsie!
Yeah, to get the 123, you had to check out the blonde. :-\
Nope, I think I got to Coney Island that way :)
--Mark
Heh. Cherchez la vache. :)
So! They said I'm a SHADY CHARACTER!
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you.
Well, I guess they didn't have many options that would appeal to a Monk from North Dakota. Sheesh! they didn't even have a way to say thay I had some nice Gregorian Chant in my CD Player!
Elias :)
Hehe, I got JMZ first time also, maybe it's just something with subtalkers! Great minds think alike!
I decided to screw with my choices, some of them that I was on the fence over, and got A, C, and E the second time. I think the tourist part suits me better than the New York resident stuff.
Third time 123, don't think it really applies at all, same for the 456. I'm not even sure if it has any 6th ave lines, I've played with it like 10 times, always one of the four above.
I'm not even sure if it has any 6th ave lines,
I hit JMZ first time, changed one answer got BDFV, changed another and got 123. I think the 6th Av Line exists, but Broadway and the Lex seem to be a myth!
Wow...mother...f...ather.
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
My home line! How about that...
I'm the 1/2/3 ... which, indeed, are the lines I ride most often.
NO 7?!
I'll settle for 1/2/3; at least I take it to work. But if there were a 7, I'd be it :).
got J/M/Z
wheres my Q!!!!!!!???
Where, too, are the G, 7, Frank and GCT shuttle?
I got 1/2/3 which is cool, but on the IRT I've always preferred Lex. Also my first preference would be IND 6 Ave and 8 Ave.
Wayne
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got the 1-2-3 as well. To paraphrase the late Mr. Rogers: "Can you say 'self-satisfied'?"
I got the JMZ as well. Boy, I'm sensing a trend here.
And not a good one either. I'm sensing a site operated by the Florida Board or Elections here. :)
I got "You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service."
Not a very accurate description of me (especially the working overtime bit!) but maybe it doesn't work for Englishmen. It also gave me the 1,2,3 lines, which is right (I was wearing my 1 Uptown and the Bronx T-shirt only yesterday - but does it actually give that result for everyone?
but maybe it doesn't work for Englishmen.
I got "You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you." - The JMZ Lines in case anyone hadn't guessed!
I don't think that's me at all - I think it DEFINITELY doesn't work for Brits!
I got JMZ, then 456-my home lines. Quite a coincidence we hit BMT lines as a majority.
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
LOL! That's me!
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
Here is one:
And here are the rest:
02 R-32 (Page 1+)
06 R-33ML (Page 10)
05 R-40 (Page 7)
04 R-68 (Page 10)
04 Work Trains
Enjoy!
Take Pride,
Brian
How do you create that blur effect anyway?
The blur effect occurs when the camera's shutter speed is too slow compared to the speed of the object in the photo. In the case of my photo, the dark underground stations force the camera to use a slower shutter speed to allow more light into the lens. But since the work train was close to me and going by at a good clip, the photo came out blurry.
There is an illustrated review of The Gangs of New York at Book Review Net by Gregory Christiano, who also did the IRT Strike piece for The Third Rail.
Of especially interest for the more antiquarian among us is a brief rundown of which streets of the mid-19th century became what today. One street ended in a dead-end called "Cow Bay."
Moo! :)
I had trouble taking "Gangs" seriously. It kept reminding me of "The Warriors"
The book is far better than the movie -- in fact the movie in some ways completely reverses the book's point of view towards the draft riots, and as William S Blyk points out in this week's New York Press even manages to include as a main character someone who had already been dead for eight years when the riots broke out.
(Scorsese's next film will be a World War II epic, showing Jimmy Doolittle's laser-guided missile attack on Tokyo with his stealth bombers in April of 1942...)
Just as a historical bit of interest, Greg Christiano interviewed me for a job at Hagstrom Maps...
...in 1981! Who knows what might have happened if I were turned loose over there. The world can thank Greg for not hiring me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, I did work for Hagstrom (before GC was there) and old Mr. Hagstrom himself knew of my eager interest in working for the map department. One day he came over to my drafting board and looked over my shoulder at a subway map I was designing. He said nothing at all to me but went in and spoke to my department head. Later I asked what he said. The answer: "Paul has too much free time."
>>>One day he came over
to my drafting board and looked over my shoulder at a subway map I was designing.<<<
Hagstrom had the world's most beautiful subway map before they modernized and 'improved' em in the (70s I think it was)...
I wish they'd get back to that classic look with that classic Viking longboat logo. The Vikings were world class navigators in the early 1000s and a longboat made for a fitting logo or a map company...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hagstrom considered that that Viking ship represented him personally and his trip to the U.S.
Today we clear out some stories in the odds and end file.
Before we get started with this week’s lesson, I thought I would take care of a few odds and ends of my own. The beautiful bride and I enjoyed a great vacation in North Carolina this past week. It was really good to get away, see some friends and family and even attend a wedding. Good friend and fellow railroader (and Hot Times subscriber) Don Woods and his beautiful new bride exchanged vows and are now husband and wife. Don’t know if the lovely Christie read the "Life of a Railroad Wife" column or not, but she has been with Don for several years, so I think she knows what she has gotten herself into. I thought I would take this opportunity to publicly wish them well and also many happy years together.
I even did something on this vacation I really do not care to do, fly. I’m still not past my fear of flying, but I guess sometimes you really have to do what you don’t want to do. But I don’t have to like it. At least I didn’t act like a raving lunatic on the plane, so I guess that is something.
"And now for something completely different."
I have all sorts of little bits and pieces of railroad amusement. Unfortunately though, these piece and parts are too brief to entitle the privilege of an entire column. So today we are going gather up a bunch of them and throw them out here for your reading pleasure.
I have mentioned in the past how railroading can be difficult on marriages. Many railroaders have been involved in multiple marriages, only in most cases, only one at a time. A good friend told me of one case where a guy had wife and family on both ends of the road. Somehow he not only balanced them, he successfully kept both wives and families from ever knowing about each other for years. That is until he got one son from each marriage a job on the railroad, each working in their respective hometown. At some point son A wound up in the home terminal of son B. They noticed they had the same last name and began to discuss this fact.
During the course of the conversation, it was learned their fathers had the very same name and worked at this railroad. Within no time it was then discovered they had the very same father and his deep dark little secret was soon exposed.
Busted!
I have enough trouble trying to keep track of my life with the beautiful bride. How in the world this guy managed to balance and support two families is really beyond me. I’m also trying to figure out how he managed to support two families simultaneously.
One guy I have worked with over the years has been married to and divorced from the same woman some five times over the years. Five times to the same woman! Here’s a guy who really knows exactly how to ruin a perfectly good divorce and do so in multiple. I wish I could be his lawyer.
We are forbidden by the rules from carrying firearms while on duty unless our job duties require them. (While this doesn't really tie into marriage, many marriages have involved shotguns.) In the transportation department there are no duties that require us to need them. Well, let me rephrase that, there are no duties in which the carriers see fit for us to carry firearms. Only the railroad police have duties requiring them to pack some heat. However, I have known probably hundreds of railroaders who have packed some sort of gun. Considering the neighborhoods we have to operate through and some of the things that have happened out here, it only makes sense to have some sort of assistance.
I believe some railroad officials are not so worried about us shooting ourselves or perhaps each other, they are terrified we will go postal and shoot them. Of course I have worked with and for a few railroad officials that have a justified fear of this sort of treatment. And while I certainly do not condone or encourage such behavior, had they met this fate it is not likely I would shed a tear upon learning of their demise.
I worked with a guy at one railroad whose train was stopped in a high crime neighborhood. While they waited upon a favorable signal to proceed, a couple of the neighbors brought forth a boarding party and climbed onto his caboose. Of course they were not high profile in their appearance, so this Conductor and his Flagman were caught somewhat by surprise when this boarding party appeared. And being there were no working locks on the caboose doors, there was no way to prevent them from entering unless you standing watch for such intrusions.
The boarding party leader walked up to the cupola area, looked up at the two sitting in their chairs and suggested they climb down and present his party with their valuables as a sort of welcome aboard gift. The Conductor graciously declined stating he had "nine good reasons" why he wouldn’t come down. Again the boarding party leader made his suggestion and again this Conductor reiterated his nine good reasons not to. The party leader then decided to offer some persuasion to the Conductor. He climbed up the ladder to the cupola to strongly urge the Conductor to reconsider his decision. When he reached the top he discovered the nine good reasons, the business end of a nine millimeter handgun. Upon making this discovery the boarding party leader called for a hasty retreat and they all exited, stage left. No gifts were given and no invitation to return was extended.
On the lighter side, one afternoon in early 1987 in my CCP days, I was working the Hawthorne-Markham Transfer job. We were heading back to Hawthorne in a snowstorm. It was really coming down and everything was quickly going down the tubes.
We got held at Clark Street on the ICG for the afternoon Metra Rock Island District commuter train curfew. We would get held here for some two hours or more almost daily if we showed up here anytime after 1600 hours. This day would be no exception.
While sitting here biding our time and discussing various topics railroaders discuss when held like this, one of my co-workers observed a couple of guys in the parking lot below having a snowball fight. They had just tied up from their jobs at the printing press located here and were just having some good clean fun. We all decided to join in on their fun, only we figured it would be much more fun if we did so unannounced. We all made a bunch of snowballs first while out of their range of vision. With that done we undertook our ambush. We all barraged them with snowballs. You should’ve seen the look on their faces when they started to get clobbered from above.
They put up the valiant fight but it was no use. They were out gunned and out supplied. It really paid off to have such a cache of ammunition built up before we began our attack. They finally surrendered and made a run for the safety of their automobiles. Railroad 1, civilians 0. And to think the CCP paid us for this bit of fun.
There is a superstition that you should never operate your locomotive with the coupler knuckle on the leading end open. Many years ago some of the old heads told me it was bad because you might couple onto a tank car that was on the main track. It could be a hazmat car and bad things might happen should you slam into it too hard and it couples up. The likelihood of this happening is pretty remote, but I suppose it could happen.
Others have told me that should you collide with an automobile the open knuckle could cause the cars to get hung up and then be dragged along with you as you are trying to stop the train.
In any event, I take no chances. I always close that front knuckle. Why tempt fate?
One evening while working the Heights Run local on the MoPac, we had a sixteen axle flatcar in our train. While it was not loaded with any lading, we had a rider (escort) accompanying it. He rode up in the engine with us and then joined us when we went to the restaurant for dinner.
He told a very interesting story that he heard from the railroad he had just come from with this car. Apparently this was a situation that took place on a well-known western railroad involving a Trainmaster who was pretty sneaky and rotten. This guy seemed to pride himself on hiding in the weeds and catching people violating rules. Not major infractions, just little, splitting hair issues. He chose to make them all into major issues though and had a reputation of being just a no good SOB.
One evening in the fall of that year he was doing his characteristic weed watching vigil. A couple of Car Inspectors discovered him hiding there. This Trainmaster was unaware that he had been discovered. These two Car Inspectors snuck up behind the guy threw a jacket over his head and then proceeded to beat the daylights out of him. He was then dragged, jacket still over his head, and shoved into an open boxcar. They smacked him a couple of more times for good (or bad) measure, yanked the jacket off him and quickly closed the boxcar door and latched it, locking this Trainmaster inside the car. They then fled the scene.
Being that it was autumn, the days were warm and nights cool. This was one of those days. As the sun disappeared from the sky, the temperature plummeted. All this Trainmaster had for protection from the elements was a windbreaker.
The story went on that this guy was discovered several hours later by another Car Inspector who was working the track along side the one this car turned jail cell was located. This Car Inspector heard screaming, yelling and banging coming from the car. He opened the door and discovered this Trainmaster, bloody, beaten like an egg, very cold and just about in mental collapse.
Word was when all was said and done, this Trainmaster recovered after a stay in the hospital. Apparently, while convalescing he assessed his entire present situation on possible future. When all was said and done, upon his discharge from the hospital and release back to work, he decided being an official was not part of the future for him. He exercised his seniority and went back from whence he came, another terminal far away in the Midwest.
Those involved were never captured and convicted of this act. Pretty much everybody had a pretty good idea who they were, but nobody gave them up. I guess this Trainmaster must’ve been quite the rotten individual as not a single soul felt any compassion towards him and his episode.
Now who says crime does not pay?
One night while at the Wisconsin Central, I was heading to Chicago with a train. The cab light on the Fireman’s side of the cab was acting up. It would flicker on and off every time we hit a rough spot or something. The Conductor became fed up with this problem and decided to see if he could affect some sort of repair. He borrowed my screwdriver and began to take the light fixture apart.
He seemed to be doing quite well when we hit another rough spot. All of a sudden there was this beautiful, brilliant flash of electric blue inside the cab, then a cry of pain. The light went dark and I heard the screwdriver hit the floor. I quickly deduced this was not good.
I asked the Conductor if he was all right and he told me he thought so. He found his lantern and turned it on. There was a huge burn spot on the cab ceiling where he was working on the light. His hand was also covered with a black stain. He flipped the switch on and off a couple of times and the light actually worked. And this time there was no flickering either. Don’t know exactly what he did, but aside from nearly killing himself, he did manage to fix the problem.
Then he began to search the cab for my screwdriver. He found it and observed the results of his handy work. Better than half of the slotted head on it had been burned completely off. Apparently, he made some sort of contact with something and completed a circuit. When this circuit completed, it acted like some sort of welder and must have used the head of the screwdriver as a welding rod. Whatever it did, this homemade welding rod seemed to create a bead of some sort that resulted in the repair acting the same as a soldered joint. This impromptu arc weld fixed the problem with the light, as it never acted up again.
I saved that old screwdriver for years as a keepsake of this guy’s efforts to both make repairs and survive while unintentionally trying to kill him self while doing such. Every time we worked together after that, I always pulled it out to remind him of his little escapade.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Mike, Thanks again for posting Tuch's always interesting stories.
You do all of us a service.
Today on the way home I got to have a really good time after Haddonfield. As my PATCO train, 218 on the point, pulled into the station and opened up, an Atlantic City bound New Jersey Transit AC line train passed us. I have been trying to catch a PATCO or NJT train that would race it's counterpart for a good 5 or so months, finally I got my chance, albeit in the dark.
While we were stopped in the station the NJT train passed us down in the bottom of the cut. We completed the station stop, the NJT train now well ahead of us, it was doing maybe 35-45 mph, having just negotiated the turn to come parallel to the Patco line. My PATCO train had started from zero, and yet by the time we were out of the haddonfield cut we were rapidly gaining on the NJT train. We passed the NJT train probably around the position light signal for the NJT tracks, the NJT loco's 645 pounding as it tried to push it to the 79mph that they can make on the grade separated ROW that they share with PATCO. By the time we passed them, the Patco train was doing 60, and climbing, the NJT train was straining away, yet the PATCO Budds just cruised by it, seemingly effortlessly.
My PATCO train made it to woodcrest a good full minute ahead of the NJT train, which consisted of cars 5014, 5558 and GP40PH-2B 4217. I hopped out and watched it zoom by, 645 now going to Idle as it was pretty close to 79, just as the door closing bell sounded on the PATCO train. The race to Ashland started all over, but I bet that round went to NJT, given the shorter distance between stations. Maybe the PATCO won the Ashland-Lindenwold section, since by now the NJT train would be slowing more and more.
Man, what a lesson in the value of acceleration in Commuter operations!
Cool race. I want to ride this 60mph+ PATCO line. I mean I have in the past, when I was like 12 years old. True, I was looking out the railfan window even then, but I wasn't looking at the speedometer.
NJT has a 40 mph speed limit within the borough limits of Haddonfield.
I think its 30.
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=6707§ionId=46
Ob transit:
Fitzgerald and Fitzgerald might change its subway car ads to read "We fight for dead nightclub patrons' rights!"
My LIRR bill will likely go from $117 to $145 with the next increase.
I can likely cut my bill in half if I use the #12 bus and 7 train from Flushing. But I would exchange a soft seat and a 20 minute commute for SRO on the bus and train, about an hour to work, and of course, "Good Evening/Morning Ladies and Gentlemen" or "It's Gospel Time!"
How many others in eastern Queens are weighing the options of giving up amenities for a cheaper ride?
www.forgotten-ny.com
well here in merrick its $153 now (zone 7)
Customers in Eastern Queens and Eastern Nassau may get more than a 25% increase.
There had been some discussion that the LIRR would narrow their fare zones back to the ones used in the 1970's. If this were the case, the stations in Nassau east of Hicksville or Wantagh and in Queens east of Jamaica or Flushing will likely see the bigger hits.
If the the LIRR wasn't highway robbery enough!
Well..it looks like someone at the MTA wants not nothing to do with us, since the board itself choose not to disclose to the state controller's office why they needed more money. I say get it from big corporations in the state of NY.
As far as what Kevin Walsh says above, I will save him a seat on the 7 train from now on.......as a resident of Bayside, it was great taking the train into the city since I live right down the block from the station. I currently use the bus, either I take the Q13 to Flushing or the Q31 to the 169st station on the F line. But with these increases, and my salary that was reduced after 9/11, I will continue to use the bus/subway route. The only time I will use the train is if I there is snow or it's freezing cold outside. I am certain there will be now crowding on the buses/subways since residents in Northeast Queens will opt for the cheaper route....which is more time consuming...it takes me 1 to 1.5 hours each way to travel....
Well..it looks like someone at the MTA wants not nothing to do with us, since the board itself choose not to disclose to the state controller's office why they needed more money. I say get it from big corporations in the state of NY.
That'll just drive more and more businesses out of the state. I say, slash Medicaid.
You and Larry Littlefield are on the same page with that.
My LIRR bill will likely go from $117 to $145 with the next increase.
I can likely cut my bill in half if I use the #12 bus and 7 train from Flushing. But I would exchange a soft seat and a 20 minute commute for SRO on the bus and train, about an hour to work, and of course, "Good Evening/Morning Ladies and Gentlemen" or "It's Gospel Time!"
How many others in eastern Queens are weighing the options of giving up amenities for a cheaper ride?
Some might. But most LIRR commuters, namely those from Nassau and Suffolk, will be stuck paying the higher fares.
Correct me if this is a stupid question, but you guys are saying that your commutes from Eastern Queens are going to go way up in price witht the 25% increase. Aren't your commute prices actually going to go down?? Isn't the MTA going to only charge $2.50 for commuting on the LIRR & MNRR within NYC limits??? Or is this only for the limits that the subway reaches????
Also is this just a thought the MTA has and is being studied or will the .50 fare go into effect with the May $2.00 increase?? Also will this include monthly, weekly, and other passes etc... or just one-way tickets????
It would sure be nice if the .50 cent thing was going into effect in May. Now if Metra and the South-Shore Line could only do something like this within Chicago. But that's only a dream that will probably never happen!!
BJ
it only applies on Off-peak on way tickets
it only applies on Off-peak one way tickets
March 5, 2003
MTA Chairman Announces Financial Proposal
for Board Consideration Tomorrow
MTA Chairman Peter S. Kalikow today (Wed.) unveiled the elements of a financial proposal that he will recommend to the full MTA Board at a special meeting being held tomorrow, March 6th at 9:30 at MTA Headquarters, 347 Madison Ave, NY, NY.
“New York City has the best transit system in the world and the MTA is dedicated to keeping it that way. Over the past three months the MTA Board has actively sought opinions from the New York riding public about ways to close our projected two year deficit. Thanks to the unprecedented input we received from ten public hearings throughout the region and more than 4,000 e-mails from customers throughout our ridership area, we have come up with a plan that addresses the concerns of our MTA customers,“ Mr. Kalikow said.
“First and foremost, our customers said that they did not want any service cuts. They also did not want to lose a physical presence in station booths, and lastly they felt the fare discounts must be maintained,” Mr. Kalikow continued.
The plan that will be recommended to the Board tomorrow incorporates the following elements:
An increase in NYCT subway and regular bus fares and LI Bus regular fares from $1.50 to $2.00 and NYCT Express Bus fares from $3 to $4, which means no service cuts or layoffs, allowing the MTA to maintain its current service levels and quality of service.
No full-time token booth closings and no more than 62 part-time closings.
An increase in the 7 day MetroCard pass from $17 to $21, the one day pass from $4 to $7, and the 30 day pass from $63 to $70.
Lowering the threshold for receiving MetroCard bonuses from $15 to $10, with an increase in the bonus from 10% to 20%. Under this proposal, a person purchasing a $10 card will now get a free ride. (i.e. Six rides for the price of five.)
An increase in the average LIRR and MNR fares by 25%.
An increase in tolls on MTA Bridges and Tunnels facilities by $0.50 in each direction on major facilities and $0.25 on minor facilities.
The introduction of an “insurance program” for 30-day MetroCard pass users. (For a small fee, regular pass users would obtain protection in the event of a lost or stolen card – a replacement card would be issued. The plan is to put this in place by September 1.)
The undertaking of a customer survey to ascertain the market for a new bi-weekly pass and to determine an appropriate price.
The implementation of a pilot program to test the feasibility of the “City-Ticket” program that would allow intra-city travel on the two commuter railroads for $0.50 more than the nominal subway fare.
“Under this staff proposal, while the fare may, in fact, rise from the current $1.50 today to $2, the average fare paid by our customers – $1.04 – will only rise to $1.30, a level that is still lower than the $1.38 average subway and bus fare our customers paid in 1995, said Kalikow.
“The proposal recommends no service cuts or layoffs, allowing us to maintain the levels and quality of service that have supported the nearly 40% growth in ridership we’ve experienced on the system since 1996, he continued.
“With regard to the closing of station booths, we have responded to the concerns of our customers. As a direct result of their input, the Board and I asked the staff to revisit the original list of 49 full-time and 128 part-time station booth closures. The revised proposal now recommends that there be no full-time booth closures and less than half the original number of part-time booth closures. In terms of the part-time booths that remain on the list, they are usually open during rush hours, not during off-peak hours when our customers’ concern for security is greatest.”
Sorry to hear it, but this was all set in STONE *before* the elections. This takes care of the transit side of what was promised - the bridge and tunnels piece (TBTA) will be next, and will be equally impressive as to its scope. Turns out they're STILL underestimating the extent of the budget deficits, and will need to come back to the well AGAIN. :(
An increase in tolls on MTA Bridges and Tunnels facilities by $0.50 in each direction on major facilities and $0.25 on minor facilities.
Nope, that ain't the plan ... dollars. Think dollars, ESPECIALLY on crossings across the BIG river. Same for the "no longer-funded" Tappan Zee that the state is actually trying to SELL! That puppy's about to splash in the Hudson and a replacement's going to have to come from somewhere. Ain't funded.
I told tales here towards the end of last year as to what "Division of the Budgie" was planning on, and so far it's a perfect score. And sadly, it's going to get even worse once there IS a "budget." :(
Perhaps the increases on the discounted cars was less because the MTA is going to get smart and start having small fare increases every year, in proportion to their wage costs.
I can understand how, politically, Pataki wanted to keep fares low for a few years after the big 20 percent increase in 1995 (doesn't seem so big now). But from 1999 on, the MTA has essentially kept its fare down (and its use of taxes for capital expenditures down) by borrowing money. We borrowed money when times were flush; it made me sick at the time. This is the result. The are blaming everything but the real reason. I'll bet Pataki thanks God every day for Osama Bin Laden.
I can sympathize with everything you've said on that post except:
"I'll bet Pataki thanks God every day for Osama Bin Laden. "
At the risk of being crude and offensive, that has to be one of the most moronic statements posted in the history of Subtalk.
Ron,
I usually agree with you, but I think Larry hit the nail on the head. He may have overstate just a wee bit. Let's be real, Pataki is a 100% political aninmal who's strings are pulled by Bruno. I don't know if you heard him lie through his teeth before the election, "I don't think we have to discuss a fare hike at this time". No, lets wait untill I'm safely re-elected and then I'll do it. The man has no shame, Andrew Cuomo (and I'm no great fan of his) was also on target when he said Pataki held Guliani's coat, and Andrew Cuomo was villianized for that honest statement.
I know it sounds unpleasent and I don't mean to say Pataki is glad thousands died on 9/11, but I'm sure a part of him is very pleased with the political cover it has given him. He has mismanaged the state in a style unseen in my lifetime and now that the chickens have come home to roost, he can blame 9/11
" He has mismanaged the state in a style unseen in my lifetime and now that the chickens have come home to roost, he can blame 9/11"
You can say that again. While the country was in the midst of one of the biggest booms in our history NYS hardly participated. I have read stories of how Pataki would try to stear new Manufacturing and Technology companies into area's of the state where he owed favors that had no infrastruture at all over areas where the infrastructure was completly in place.
Andrew Cuomo is not the answer. Look at the mess he oversaw in Harlem while heading HUD. I voted for Golisano. Although he may not have the experience of the other guy's, I believe as with Bloomberg, he owe's no favors and would do what he saw was correct.
Pataki's does make a good TV spot!!!!
The filthy business hack is the kinda guy who corrupts politicians. He owes no one favors but himself Just like bu$h, gas is $ 2.00/gal on it's way to $3 and he does'nt release the reserves. Too bad the people couldn't hire a ken starr attack dog like gulf oil/ roger mellon scaife did. Politically destroying bu$h and his 100% corrupt party and idelolgy would be a wonderful thing.
"Just like bu$h, gas is $ 2.00/gal on it's way to $3 and he does'nt release the reserves"
I read yesterday that Bush caused a price hike last year in gas prices when the administration bought large quantities of gas in a relativlely short period of time for the national reserves pushing up gas prices. So we are getting hit with a double hit
As for BUSH and the election. The first thing he did when he got elected was to pass a big farm aid package as a reward for the farm state vote. what most people don't realize is that most of this money does not go to the small farmer but rather the large coorporate farmers such as ADM
Dollars? Nah. I'm, sticking with $0.50 increase.
If this be true, then I hope New Yorkers quickly spread the word of how relatively cheap now the 30-day pass is. It only went up 7 dollars. Now if you use the subway 35 times in 30 days, you may as well buy that pass!
Yes, even at $70, it is still one of the BEST DEALS in the city!
Especially if you you it.
Was there anything said about the tokens? Will they be retained or elimated?
Eliminated, according to this account
Peace,
ANDEE
There wasn't anything specific about tokens. It mentions fare hike and breaks down how much and where. It mentions Metrocards and the bonus changing from 10% to 20%. But when it comes to tokens it only mentions a phasing out of them. It gives me the impression they're going to be around a little while longer.
This is the end of the token phaseout. The phaseout began in 1994 if not earlier.
A fare increase is the obvious time to eliminate the token. Maintaining the token through a fare increase is expensive. Maintaining the token through a fare increase it only to eliminate it a few months later makes as much sense as renovating a house only to tear it down a few months later.
They should just stop selling them and let people use up whatever ones they have. As they should've done years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think TA will do that later this year. Not now.
Didn't you read what David Greenberger posted, or does it go in one ear and out the other when it is contrary to your ASSumptions?
The tokens won't be gone. They'll still work at the turnstiles at 76th Street.
I believe 76th Street was equipped with ticket choppers. :)
The choppers at 76th Street are black.
Wall Street still has a ticket chopper. Watch where you put your MetroCard!
Heh. Pull my finger. Go ahead. ":)
Agreed.
There will come a point where (as they've done in the past when introducing new tokens) you will be able to "cash in" your tokens at 370 Jay Street, and that's it.
I'll miss the token. They made great tips for waiters, cab drivers, maids and bell hops.
>>> They should just stop selling them and let people use up whatever ones they have. As they should've done years ago. <<<
It seems more likely that after setting turnstiles to no longer accept tokens, they would be accepted at token booths with a value of $1.50 so a token and $0.50 would buy a single ride MetroCard. The redemption of tokens in this manner could take place over a year, and after that the tokens would have no value. The MTA would get a one time bonus from those who wanted to keep a souvenir token.
Tom
In the past, MTA has allowed tokens which were being withdrawn to be "cashed in" at 370 Jay Street.
They should just stop selling them and let people use up whatever ones they have.
More than likely, they will cease to accept them, but continue to sell them for $1.75 in the Transit Museum gift shop :).
(Or are they going up to $2.25 now?)
Get a monthly, and swipe on exit!
Give a free-bee, and run.
avid
the one day pass from $4 to $7
Is that a typo or a 75% fare increase?
That's no typo.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ouch that's criminal!
It's only for the daily pass. Still a good buy if you take 4 or more trips in a day. The monthly unlimited is only going up $7.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unless you make 5 or more trips in a day, a $10/6ride card would be a better deal.
The MTA never wanted to issue the day pass but the Goobener insisted. So they're making it less attractive.
Nah, that's REPUBLICAN. Only "the little people" use subways. Phuggem. :(
the one day pass from $4 to $7
Is that a typo or a 75% fare increase?
Message from City Hall and Albany: 'Screw the tourists - they don't vote.'
JD
Message from City Hall and Albany: 'Screw the tourists - they don't vote.'
The truth is, if I was a tourist, I would probably get the weekly anyway. Most of the time a tourist will be here for 3 or more days. I know that whenever I am in another city, even if I'm only going to be there for 3 days or so, I usually buy the weeklys if they have them. I did that a few years back in San Francisco (Actually I think they had a 3 day pass - I don't remember) and New Orleans also (which also may have been a 3 day pass), but whatever they were, it was more than just a daily pass.
Besides, Fun Pass wasn't really that advertised. A tourist may not even know it's an option if they just go to a token booth. How would they know it's not at a token booth, but you can buy them at a newstand?
>>> if I was a tourist, I would probably get the weekly anyway. Most of the time a tourist will be here for 3 or more days. <<<
A weekly pass might work for a tourist arriving on Sunday, but if he arrives on Thursday to stay through Monday morning, he is SOL. The weekly is not a seven day pass.
Tom
NYC has no weekly pass -- it's a 7-day pass, valid for any period of 7 consecutive calendar days.
"NYC has no weekly pass -- it's a 7-day pass, valid for any period of 7 consecutive calendar days."
So, doesn't 7 consecutive days equal one week. In the MTA commuter railroads, it's called a weekly commutation ticket.
No. A week on some transit systems is defined as Sunday thru Saturday or Monday thru Sunday. NY's "weekly" is therefore theoretically a 7-day ticket.
"NYC has no weekly pass -- it's a 7-day pass, valid for any period of 7 consecutive calendar days."
So, doesn't 7 consecutive days equal one week. In the MTA commuter railroads, it's called a weekly commutation ticket.
>>> NYC has no weekly pass -- it's a 7-day pass, valid for any period of 7 consecutive calendar days. <<<
That is a much better way than tying to the days of the week. How about the monthly unlimited? Is it tied to the calendar, or good for 30 days from the time it is first used?
Tom
The three unlimited passes offered by NYCT are the Fun Pass (valid from midnight on any day to 3am on the following day), the 7-day pass (valid from midnight on any day to midnight 7 days later), and the 30-day pass (valid from midnight on any day to midnight 30 days later).
I thought a weekly was good for 7-days. Hense the name "7 Day Unlimited".
I'm a resident. I use the Fun Pass on average at least 6-7 times per month. I vote.
(City Hall? How was City Hall involved?)
"An increase in the 7 day MetroCard pass from $17 to $21"
Apologies. I got my arithmetic wrong in the other thread. A weekly will be three times a Funpass. Still worth buying the weekly for a tourist staying more than three days and planning to use transit a lot.
"Under this proposal, a person purchasing a $10 card will now get a free ride(i.e. six rides for the price of five)"
This is the best (or least worst?) part of the proposals. My hypothetical tourists might be best off with a $10 pay-per-ride if staying for two days provided that they aren't expecting to use transit very much. For three or more days, a weekly unlimited at $21 is probably a better buy than a $20 pay-per-ride, because of the additional flexibility which that extra $1 buys you. Of course, if there are two of you travelling together, the $20 would be better if you're only planning on making a few trips, since you'd only need to buy one of them.
Remember we want tourists to pay more!!!!
Here's how it all pans out:
NYCT 30-day unlimited: 11% increase
B&T cash: 14%
B&T E-ZPass: 17%
NYCT subway/bus (bulk purchase): 22%
NYCT 7-day unlimited: 24%
Commuter rail: 25% average
NYCT subway/bus (individual): 33%
NYCT Fun Pass: 75%
This observation leads to two questions. First, do we want to shift the previous balance, with increases ranging from 11% to 75% depending on mode and fare media? Second, assuming we do, is this the way we want to do it? I'm not convinced it is. In fact, I see some serious shortfalls in these numbers.
In fact, I see some serious shortfalls in these numbers.
Then why aren't you at the hearing right now?
What hearing? There's a board meeting, not a hearing.
And the members looked very bored.
Woudnt you be if you had nothing to do but listen to the same statement over and over at all the meetings. regualar Joe's were not offering thier opinion. The same connected bunch of special interests spoke over and over again
Sorry, I have been on hiatus for a few days, good afternoon everyone. So next month, the fare goes up, the Manny-B goes down on weekends, NEW YORK, NEW YORK IT'S A WONDERFUL TOWN.
BTW: I know the anwser to this front page ad in yesterday's NY Daily News (The R40 slant Q), but rather than giving it away as Mr. almost Know-It-All, could you please tell me where this picture took place. You must identify the EXACT location.
IND 34th/6th Ave. Uptown Express track, south end of platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
On second look, Downtown express track, north end of platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
You were right the first time, Uptown express track, south end of platform. There are no stairs that close to the tower on the Uptown side, if it was the Downtown express track.
Yes, but I can't see the signal on the platform. I guess it's too far away.
Peace,
ANDEE
But you would also not able to see the elevator that comes first, BEFORE, the first set of stairs that lead to the 35th st ramps
True, I just took a look on the way home today.
Peace,
ANDEE
Call it what you want. On the MTA website, it is called a Board Meeting but listed under the heading of "Public Hearings."
Fun Passes seem to be hit the hardest. That's a stiff increase...almost double. I think they should have made it $6.00. Before, you were ahead if you made at least 3 rides. Now it's four rides. Unless you are guaranteed to make at least four trips in a day, a FunPass is a bad idea. At $6.00, at least you would have been no better off or worse off if you only took rides. I used to use the FunPass quite often when making only one stop outside the system. I guess I'll be better off with the 10 trip now.
They should have made the funpass $5.50
Even better, you are totally correct, especially if they were going to keep FunPass in the same structure it was before, but I would have been satisfied with $6.00. $7.00 is ridiculous.
That would put too much stress on the MVM's and stocking more quarters at token booths
Funpasses are not sold in token booths.
Peace,
ANDEE
Always have been. An agent can sell someone a $4 metrocard. But it's not a Funpass.
Well it's now official, and no surprises here:
MTA Board, against the whim of 50 officials who attended the Board Meeting approved the following:
-$2 fare
-Tokens to be extinct
-Only 68 P/T booth closings, no full time booths to be closed. The final tally may be even less than the 68 booths itself.
-50 cent increase in B&T tolls
More details later.....
DETAILS FROM NY1
Peace,
ANDEE
So the insurance on the 30-day cards is free? Cool deal!
It would seem so, but I'll wait for all the details. BTW, do commuter rail passengers enjoy any kind of insurance in the event of a loss?
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, do commuter rail passengers enjoy any kind of insurance in the event of a loss?
My friend says "no." He has a MNR monthly ticket.
Just changing the subject of this thread to make it easier for people to see that the fare hike was approved.
I think SubTalkers can see that the Fare Hike was approved rather than just changing the Thread Name.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Huh? I'd sure hope so! But what about the non-subtalkers that just happen upon this website now and check out SubTalk? This will make it easier for them to see the news.
HMMMM.............. LOL
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Ok, could someone explain this commuter "City Ticket" thing? It looks to me that if you use LIRR or MNRR and the Subway, you'll only have to pay $2.50 for both? Or did NY1 just word that poorly?
No, you just ride MNRR or LIRR only within the city limits
On MNRR from GCT to either Riverdale or Wakefield. On the LIRR it's from City Terminals to either Little Neck, Floral Park, or Rosedale. (I don't think Far Rockaway counts, it is a technicial issue, even though Far Rock is in Zone 4.) The one-way fare is $2.50 and will they charge this fare Peak in addition to Off-Peak? Sorry, you must buy regular ticket, no Metrocards can be used here, no discounts either, unless MNRR offers the 10 Trip Off-Peak on the City-Ticket
Sounds to me as if it's meant to be an LIRR-only or MNRR-only fare within the city limits for $2.50. Jamaica to Penn, Flushing to Woodside, Fordham to GCT, etc.
The Boston MBTA does that... if you ride the Commuter Rail within the limits of the rapid transit lines (i.e. Porter Square to North Station or Back Bay to South Station), you can use a Subway pass.
Very true.
How might you use a FunPass (tourist style):
Assume it's summer, just for example.
In the morning: Head out to Coney Island for hot dogs, the Aquarium, the beach etc. In the afternoon, head back to Manhattan to check out the (Cloisters? An exhibit at the MoMA?) Then go catch dinner and a show (riding the subway or bus again). Then back to your hotel or home).
OK. I'm stretching things a bit.
But the FunPass is a great deal for messengers/couriers who use the subway. Not for railfans, though - because a railfan would tend to stay inside fare control and not leave/reenter except to have lunch. And there are two places in the subway (Lex/63 - Lex 59, and Court Sq) where even that exit/reenter can be done as a free transfer).
Now that I don't travel consitantly into the city to work everyday, I always have a fun pass in my wallet to use for subfaning or other busy transit days. Under the new structure it just does not pay
I almost always use a FunPass in the city, especially when I would know I would make at least 1 extra stop. Many times my FunPass only included 3 actual subway trips, so I saved $.50. No big deal or amount, but for those kind of trips it will no longer be worth it to even use FunPass.
Also 51-53/Lex. But all of these free out-of-system transfers have to be used within about two hours of first entry -- not very useful for someone who's been railfanning all morning and takes a break for lunch.
>>> the FunPass is a great deal for messengers/couriers who use the subway. Not for railfans, though - because a railfan would tend to stay inside fare control and not leave/reenter except to have lunch. <<<
That was true when I was a kid and only had 25¢ to spend for the day (one 10¢ fare and 15¢ for Nedicks hot dog within fare control). Now I would use a FunPass to leave the system to get a view (and pictures) of els from the street, and see what the neighborhood is like above subway stations, and take buses to other subway lines to avoid backtracking.
Tom
My railfanning falls into two styles. Sometimes I try to cram everything into one or two fares, staying in the system. Other times I use a Fun Pass and pop in and out at will.
I anticipate that nearly all of my railfanning will be of the first style beginning in May.
Hmm, I dunno about it not being good for railfans ... now I can get on and off the system as I please to take video and it costs me $4 (soon to be $7). Whereas before I used to confine all my activity to within the fare zone, now I can go outside the fare zone and continue my railfanning activities. Before the advent of the funpass, it would be $1.50 a pop everytime I'd want to exit the system to eat or grab that great picture.
--Mark
Actually, a new Fun Pass costs more than four rides on a PPR with the new 20% bonus. I think the MTA has just killed off the Fun Pass for good -- how many people enter the system five times per day, plus free transfers?
I have rarely used at least 5 rides on my Fun Passes, because many times once out of the system (and not railfanning), I like to walk around the city if it's a nice day, so I guess now I will have to be going for the PPR with the new bonus. The Fun Pass used to work for me because with walking, I usually only used 3 or possible 4 rides many times, so the Fun Pass would actually end up costing me money with the new system. When I used Fun Pass, I always planned to use more than three, but many times didn't. So I usually planned to save more than $.50, but was never unhappy if it was turned out to be only $.50.
In addition, 3 rides with the the Fun Pass was also better than paying $15.00 for 11 rides, which at $1.36 a ride would come to $4.09 for three rides (wow - $.09), but hey, it still worked out better with Fun Pass, especially if there was even a chance I would take a 4th ride, which many times didn't happen.
"Actually, a new Fun Pass costs more than four rides on a PPR with the new 20% bonus"
How is that?
Price is $7, right? 4 rides x $2 = $8
Lowering the threshold for receiving MetroCard bonuses from $15 to $10, with an increase in the bonus from 10% to 20%. Under this proposal, a person purchasing a $10 card will now get a free ride. (i.e. Six rides for the price of five.)
Price is $7, right? 4 rides x $2 = $8
6 rides for price of 5 = $1.67.
$1.67x4=$6.68
4 rides PPR with discount = $6.68
4 rides Fun Pass = $7.00
See my response to David Greenberger's post.
I find the calculations much more convenient when you lop off 1% from the price (assuming you pay with a CC and get the cashback bonus).
A 15 dollar card costs only $14.85, which divided by 11 is exactly $1.35.
A new 10 dollar card will cost only $9.90, which divided by 6 is a nice $1.65
$6.93/$1.65=4.2
The effective price per ride for anyone who puts at least $15 on a card at once is currently $1.36.
The effective price per ride for anyone who puts at least $10 on a card at once will be $1.67.
4 rides x $1.67 = $6.68
True, but the consistent benchmark against which discounts are measured is, in fact the base cash fare, which is $2.
However, your point is well taken.
What you are saying is that the FunPass provides a 12.5% discount off the base fare. A $15 Metrocard provides 11 rides; each ride is at a 68% discount off the base fare. A $10 card provides 6 rides at a 16.5% discount.
Of the three cards, the Fun Pass' discount off the base cash fare is the least attractive at 4 rides, but can potentially surpass the other cards if you ride enough times.
One important note about MetroCards: New York City participates in TransitChek, does it not? So if you buy MetroCards for work, commuting, etc., with pretax dollars, you can effectively add an additional 25-30% discount to the discounts the MJTA is offering.
"A $15 Metrocard provides 11 rides; each ride is at a 68% discount off the base fare"
Sorry, I meant a 32% discount off the base fare.
>>> What you are saying is that the FunPass provides a 12.5% discount off the base fare <<<
That is too simple. The discount depends on the usage in one day.
1 ride = 250.00% premium
2 rides = 75.00% premium
3 rides = 16.67% premium
4 rides = 12.50% discount
5 rides = 30.00% discount
6 rides = 41.67% discount
7 rides = 50.00% discount
8 rides = 56.25% discount
9 rides = 61.11% discount
10 rides = 65.00% discount
The $10.00 MetroCard provides a 16.67% discount only if you are going to use all six fares. A tourist in New York for two days only, and taking four trips a day each day breaks even paying $14.00 for two FunPasses, or $10.00 for a MetroCard and $4.00 in single fares on the second day.
The new price is right for the FunPass for what it is intended for. The old pricing structure was more similar to the daily pass system used in this area by operators who do not allow any free transfers on a single fare.
Tom
The 20% bonus is applied to any purchase of $10.00 or more.
I thought the purpose of the Fun Pass, like the other unlimited passes, was to fill seats on off-peak trains and buses. Currently, none of the unlimiteds are worthwhile for people who only use the subway for the daily commute but become useful with only a few off-peak rides. Soon, casual users won't have any incentive to ride off-peak until they've racked up five rides in a day, while everyday commuters will get a discount even if they only ride twice a day during rush hour.
The unlimited cards have been widely credited with the off-peak ridership increases of recent years. The new fare structure is a step backwards.
"The unlimited cards have been widely credited with the off-peak ridership increases of recent years. The new fare structure is a step backwards."
Wrong. If anything, the cards are providing much better discounts off the base fare than they did before.
The only person getting "shafted" is the one-day tourist. And that's OK, because even a $2 cash fare beats cab fare to the same destination. The subway is still the cheapest impulse purchase around, transportation-wise.
And if the tourist stays for a week, there's a seven-day card top help him/her out.
Then I must be a tourist, because I make extensive use of the Fun Pass. (Hint: not every city resident commutes to work every day. Some walk, some drive, some are unemployed, etc.)
The new discounts are wonderful -- for those who commute every day and pack onto crowded trains every rush hour. So much for encouraging off-peak ridership Adding peak riders is expensive -- it requires the construction of new lines and the purchase of new cars. Adding off-peak riders costs practically nothing.
>>> The 20% bonus is applied to any purchase of $10.00 or more. <<<
Are you saying on can purchase an eight ride MetroCard for $13.34? If so that would still beat two FunPasses.
>>> Currently, none of the unlimiteds are worthwhile for people who only use the subway for the daily commute but become useful with only a few off-peak rides. <<<
That is exactly the way they should be priced. The daily commuters are a captive customer base, so you do not want to lower the total fares received by pricing the unlimiteds way below what they pay for the basic commute. You also do not want to give a discount to all casual users of the subway, only those who will pay extra for more use. This will bring the average price of a ride much closer to $2.00 than the current average is to $1.50. If the decision to buy an unlimited card over other pricing structures becomes a no brainer for everyone, then the unlimited is priced too low.
Tom
I'll tell you who the loser is here: children. Let's say you want to take the kids somewhere. They don't ride every day, so the weekly and monthly don't work. If you aren't doing more than three rides, the Fun Pass doesn't work. Children don't get half cards like the elderly and disabled.
They should have raised the weekely and monthly a little higher, kept the non-rush hour fares at $1.50.
Not as big a crime against the next generation as rising federal, state and local debts, or adding a prescription drug plan to Medicare while cuttting school spending all over the country. But similar.
children have the school passes, so they don't have to worry, the rest of us will just have to "raise ridership" and ride around needlessly to make the new discounts worthwhile, oh well, buses like the Bx20 need this kind of support
(children have the school passes, so they don't have to worry)
Only on school days, not on weekends. And my children's school passes are not good on the subway, only on buses.
I thought schoolkids get to ride the subway for free on school days. In fact, I know they do.
Are there different kinds of school passes?
Yes there are 4 types of school passes.
Bus only R-1
Subway and Bus C-1
Private Bus only
Half Fare
Depending on your distance from your school you receive a different kind of pass. The distance requirement is shorter for elementary and junior high and farther for high school.
In the case of a child who needs to take a bus and a train. The train is free. The train station replaces the school in determine the distance as to whether the child gets a free bus pass.
In my case I was 1 block short of getting a C-1 combo pass. Of course i went to school in the days where you just showed your pass to the driver. I ussually flashed my R-1 train pass and it ussually worked. If the driver stoped me i waited for another bus.
Many people would choose not to go there zone school just to get a free pass.
Thank you.
Please do not thank him yet, his information is outdated.
There are only 3 types of Student MetroCard, there are no non-Metrocard-based student passes.
Student Half-fare: Issued to students who live less than a certain distance from their school and thus do not qualify for a full fare pass, but live far enough away to qualify for some sort of pass. This pass entitles the bearer to three rides in any weekday from issuance until expiration (generally, this is one semester) from 5:30 AM to 8:30 PM. Each use requires 75¢ fare and user is entitled to transfer to other bus. This transfer is not encoded and a transfer must be issued by the driver. This card is not valid on express buses, the subway, or the SIR.
Student Free 3: This card is issued to people who live father away from their school. This card may be used on the subway, bus and SIR and automatically encodes the transfers. This card can also be used on private express buses for a $1.50 surcharge on initial board and transfer (so if you take two express buses, you still pay $3).
Student Free 4: Exactly as above, but 4 rides are allowed. This is issued when students participate in off-campus extra-curricular activities.
Other variants:
Special Program Pass: Allows two free rides (and transfers) but both rides must be used in the same day. Once used, it can never be used again. This is used for field trips and the like. This card can be used all day.
Evening school pass: For students who attend class in the evening, this one allows usage later than the 8:30PM that the regular cards allow, but also start later, they cannot be used at 5:30 AM. These cards also are the only ones that offer some weekend hours.
All cards when reported lost are cancelled and replaced within 24 hours.
K-6 full fare passes use orange text on a white background. All other passes use green on white.
Some things I forgot to add:
There is no private company only pass. All cards allow use on all local DOT buses.
There is a Long Island Bus student card. It uses purple text and works just like the NYC half-fare pass, but the fare is $1.35, transfers cost money (I don't know if it's the regular 25¢ or 10¢) and only two rides are allowed. Of course, it can only be used on LIB. NYC student cards cannot be used on LIB.
when many students get a replacement, the old card is still activated, I knew someone who got his brothers card and did that.
Some students even sell their cards to others
What would the card say if it deactivated in the bus farebox?
I did this too, except that I used the old card myself. While they officially say 24-hours, I got a week out of the old one.
"Children don't get half cards like the elderly and disabled"
Depending on where you live school kids do get half fare bus cards. I see students all the time with them at kings highway.
When I went to high school I recieved a free train pass (R-1) and a half fare bus pass because I live 19 blocks from the subway.
Does anyone remember the 5 cent passes
Are you saying on can purchase an eight ride MetroCard for $13.34? If so that would still beat two FunPasses.
Correct (in the new pricing scheme -- the old pricing scheme has a 10% bonus for purchases of $15 and up). A pay-per-ride MetroCard is encoded with a dollar value, not a ride count.
That is exactly the way they should be priced. The daily commuters are a captive customer base, so you do not want to lower the total fares received by pricing the unlimiteds way below what they pay for the basic commute. You also do not want to give a discount to all casual users of the subway, only those who will pay extra for more use. This will bring the average price of a ride much closer to $2.00 than the current average is to $1.50. If the decision to buy an unlimited card over other pricing structures becomes a no brainer for everyone, then the unlimited is priced too low.
Agreed. That's what I like about the current arrangement and dislike about the one that was just approved.
Thank you. Absolutely correct.
True, but the consistent benchmark against which discounts are measured is, in fact the base cash fare, which is $2.
No it's not. The base cash fare is an arbitrary number that may have no bearing on what an actual person pays for an actual ride. I haven't paid $1.50 for a ride since 1999, and I won't be paying $2.00 for a ride later this year. My options were to pay $1.36 for a single ride or $4.00 for a day's worth of rides. My options will be to pay $1.67 for a single ride or $7.00 for a day's worth of rides.
At four rides per day, only a tourist traveling alone for one day benefits from the Fun Pass. Two tourists traveling together or one tourist traveling for two days would be better off putting $13.34 on a pay-per-ride card, yielding a $16.01 balance after the 20% bonus.
As a practical matter, the break-even point is a fraction over 4 rides.
"No it's not. The base cash fare is an arbitrary number that may have no bearing on what an actual person pays for an actual ride."
Yes it is. The benchmark here has nothing to do with whether you in particular actually use it or not. It is simply a point of comparison which allows every discount tool to be measured in the same way.
"I haven't paid $1.50 for a ride since 1999, and I won't be paying $2.00 for a ride later this year."
As I explained, that is irrelevant to the definition I was providing you.
If you're comparing discounts against other discounts, sure, it doesn't matter what "base fare" you use. Use $2 if you like or $100 if you like -- it doesn't matter. You might as well use $x.
However, a practical question that arises for many people when they ride the subway is whether they're better off using a pay-per-ride or an unlimited. I gave a practical answer; you didn't.
"The introduction of an “insurance program” for 30-day MetroCard pass users. (For a small fee, regular pass users would obtain protection in the event of a lost or stolen card – a replacement card would be issued. The plan is to put this in place by September"
(from the MTA announcement)
Some months back, Old Tom floated an idea for insuring a fare card in a Subtalk post. I liked it, so I refined the idea and turned it into a proposal for an "Insured MetroCard" which I then sent to the MTA Chairman, the NYCTA President and the Govt. and Community Relations department. IThe proposal covered only the unlimited MetroCard, which would be easiest to instantly cancel and replace (because the TA would not have to figure out how much money was left on it). I received a reply from them indicating that the proposal would be considered and would be circulated to appropriate parties for comment.
It is about to be implemented. I cannot say that others did not also champion this idea (the Straphangers did not). But I am very pleased that MTA accepted it and that its riders will benefit from it.
Congratulations to Old Tom for providing the germ of a really nice idea (7 million people a day will have it available to them). And thanks to all of you on the Subtalk board for doing a great job vetting ideas, and being, collectively, one of the ultimate "sounding boards" a transit advocate could have.
Good work Guys!!!. The straphangers campaign only focus is to get the state to supply more money to mass transit. They are not interested in anything else. The study showing sub $15k transit riders not buying discount metrocards was just another ploy to get more money.
If you read the MTA's own study they brook out the purchace patterns of ridership by not only income but by heavy user, moderate user, and light user. Heavy users in the $15k range purchaced discount metrocards in a similar proportion to heavy users in higher income brakets
>>> Congratulations to Old Tom for providing the germ of a really nice idea <<<
Thanks for the "attaboy", but they are going farther than I envisioned aren't they? I suggested insurance be offered at a small premium, and as I understand it, they are insuring all unlimited cards, which was suggested by another SubTalker in the same thread.
Tom
I have not been able to confirm that. I will try to find out.
If so, so much the better for riders - but you still helped bring them the idea in the first place.
It's possible that it is easier to write software to make all monthly MetroCards insured rather than keeping track of which ones are/are not.
Not really. It is not a difficult thing to program. All you need to do is add another column to a table in the database that keeps a yes or no for the insurance. I see it being a bigger problem with confusing riders.
There are a few issue to be raised with the insurance dealing with the fraud issue. How will the credit be issued? How quickly? How much time will a person have to report the incident?
I read somewhere that the MTA was looking for an insurance provider willing to take on part of the risk. To me such a program would not be that attractive to insurer's
Not really. It is not a difficult thing to program. All you need to do is add another column to a table in the database that keeps a yes or no for the insurance. I see it being a bigger problem with confusing riders.
There are a few issue to be raised with the insurance dealing with the fraud issue. How will the credit be issued? How quickly? How much time will a person have to report the incident?
From the MTA website http://www.mta.info/mta/proposal.htm
"The introduction of an “insurance program” for 30-day MetroCard pass users. For a small fee, regular pass users would obtain protection in the event of a lost or stolen card in the form of a replacement card. (Anticipated implementation 9/03.)"
>>> There are a few issue to be raised with the insurance dealing with the fraud issue. How will the credit be issued? How quickly? How much time will a person have to report the incident? <<<
These are not real problems. There is no "credit" issued. The lost/stolen card is canceled and a replacement good until the expiration of the original is issued. Presumably some proof of the serial number of the lost card must be shown, so the proper card will be canceled. This is not really much different than replacing lost travelers checks. The longer a lost card is not reported, the less benefit the customer gets from the replacement. The MTA is not out any fares since the old card is canceled before the new card is issued. The only cost to the MTA (to be covered by the insurance premium) is the administrative cost of issuing the replacement card.
Tom
>>“New York City has the best transit system in the world...<<
Obviously, Mr. Kalikow has never ridden the TTC!
The increases that matter most to railfans:
Monthly Unlimited - $63 to $70 -- 11.11% increase
Weekly Unlimited - $17 to $21 -- 23.53% increase
Pre-Purchase Bonus -- 11/$15 to 6/$10 -- 22.79% increase
Fun Pass -- $4 to $7 -- 75% increase
Is that choking noises I hear on the last one? The MTA hates the day pass and they've said so. I don't think they're worried about railfans so much as they consider them a subsidy to businesses who send messengers on the subway.
Obviously, despite their best efforts to hide the thing as much as possible, the Fun Pass proved to be too popular for it's own good and had to be subdued. However, for messengers making two round-trips a day on the subway, the Fun Pass can still save their businesses a little money (just 50 percent less than it does now).
Based on these percentages, the MTA obviously is pushing the monthly unlimited deal. It makes perfect sense. If you're trying to reduce the number of token booth clerks, you have to reduce the number of visits each passenger makes to the token booth.
I hate subway entrances with no token booth clerk. You always find undesirables hanging around, trying to solicit money, or sliding Metro Cards, hoping to find one with a balance.
on monday i found a card with $1.50 on it.
I once found a 7-day unlimited used once that morning and discarded by accident.
"You always find undesirables hanging around, trying to solicit money, or sliding Metro Cards, hoping to find one with a balance."
True. However, that last part I won't begrudge them. Looking for discarded MetroCards with balances on them is like walking around the street looking for lost coins and bills. One guy managed to make $20-$30 a day reaching into sewers with a fishing line and chewing gum and retrieving coins. It's hard work andnot very rewarding, but hey, whatever makes you happy...
Kind of like the sightings of the Tunnel Dwelling Token Sucker. Anybody remember THEM?
Them suckers have been replaced by swipers.
Undesirable's hanging around not purchacing or moving through the turnstyles is loitering and could be and should be delt with
If the idea were to reduce the number of transactions, the solution would be a per-transaction charge of, say, 50 cents at a machine or $1 at a booth. I'll bet NYCT would sell a lot of $80 PPR cards if a transaction charge were implemented! The bulk discount is a step in the right direction, but now there's no advantage to paying for more than six rides at a time, down from eleven.
"You always find undesirables hanging around, trying to solicit money, or sliding Metro Cards, hoping to find one with a balance."
Or selling you a ride.
I hate subway entrances with no token booth clerk. You always find undesirables hanging around, trying to solicit money, or sliding Metro Cards, hoping to find one with a balance.
That happens even when there are 24-hour booths.
"Fun Pass -- $4 to $7 -- 75% increase
Is that choking noises I hear on the last one? The MTA hates the day pass and they've said so. I don't think they're worried about railfans so much as they consider them a subsidy to businesses who send messengers on the subway."
Interestingly, a seven-day unlimited will now be less than 2.5 times a one-day. So tourists (or business visitors) in NYC for a visit of more than two days may do best to buy a weekly. That is what I will do next time I'm in town. Others may find the new 6 for $10 a better deal, especially if they are in town for two days and won't be travelling around all that much. With the 6/$10 available, it will take five trips in one day for the Funpass to be a better deal.
There are still *messengers* in NYC? I know the city is old-fashioned, but surely electronic communications exist there? When the London and Blackwall Railway was built - one of the first urban trains in the world - one of its main traffics was messengers taking bills of lading, etc., between shipping company officis in the City of London and the ships lying in the docks at Blackwall. It seems NYC is still living in the 1840s.........(Deliberately provocative remark).
Messengers are a MUST in NYC. When packages or papers must be delivered the same day, and the sender does not trust the documents or material to electronic means, messengers are the ONLY way. The US Mail takes one day, MINIMUM, to deliver. Messengers travel by foor, bicycle, subway and (rarely) car. I've even seen Fed Ex on the subway with packages. Sometimes a system works so well it transcends time and technology. (Incidentally this is why the NYC subway's operations were essentially unchanged for most of its existence. Only in recent years has the "tech revolution" really made inroads into the system.)
Actually I was just goading you New Yorkers. In London, there are lots of messengers too, but they use motorbikes mostly, or sometimes pushbikes. I don't think they use the Underground much - perhaps because, with the long escalators down to the deep platforms, it takes a minimum of 20 minutes to go one stop on the Underground even when the trains are running at good frequencies!
Messengers are a MUST in NYC. When packages or papers must be delivered the same day, and the sender does not trust the documents or material to electronic means, messengers are the ONLY way. The US Mail takes one day, MINIMUM, to deliver.
Business functions just fine in most parts of the United States with little or no use of messenger services. Oh, I forgot, New York is "different."
Actually, there are quite a few messengers/couriers here in Houston, including downtown messengers on bicycles and city-wide couriers in cars.
When having contracts worked on by a law firm across the street, I’m always asked if the final contract should be mailed or sent by courier. They sometimes seem surprised when I offer to walk across the street and pick it up myself.
>>> When having contracts worked on by a law firm across the street, I'm always asked if the final contract should be mailed or sent by courier. <<<
"Silk stocking" law firms seem to think messenger is the only way to send things. I have had one send a messenger with papers for me to sign with instructions to wait while I reviewed and signed them and return with the documents. This was a situation where there was no tight deadline for the documents and I had suggested they be mailed to me after reviewing a faxed draft. Maybe they had a volume discount with the messenger service, but the retail cost of that type of two way courier was $80.00+ at that time.
Tom
"I have had one send a messenger with papers for me to sign with instructions to wait while I reviewed and signed them and return with the documents."
Any possibility they were hoping that, with the courier waiting, you would perform but a perfunctory review?
"Business functions just fine in most parts of the United States with little or no use of messenger services"
You should travel a bit. San Francisco is famous for bike messengers, and a lot of downtown businesses can't function without them; Los Angeles has same-day messenger services (only they use cars). Time-sensitive financial documents are often carried by courier, sometimes on a same-day basis; taxicabs in many cities offer same-day within-the-hour document delivery (and they do a lot of business).
My father used to carry the weekly payroll for his employer on the subway (this was back in the 1960's).
Those real cities you describe do not refer to most of the United States. Most of the United States is slow-growing cornfield and does fine without messengers, because by the time the message takes a few weeks to get around, nothing has really changed.
Oh, wait a minute, they have UPS and FedEx there too, so apparently they can't get around without some kind of courier service!
So much for that theory.
Messengers are used alot in the finacail services and fashion industries where fabics, and orinigal finacial documents have to be delivered to another location. Bank of New York has on staff messengers to deliver between it's buildings
The Electronic signature act of 2000 has reduced the need a bit but the industry has not completly converted to eltronic signatures.
"The Electronic signature act of 2000 has reduced the need a bit but the industry has not completly converted to eltronic signatures."
Old Tom and others knowledgable can correct me, but are electronic signatures valid for all business categories in all 50 states, DC and territories?
No, and lawyers don't like them because it's been proven that they can be forged. A good number of viruses and nasties slip right past Microsoft because they've been forged with valid Microsoft certificates. Same "Verisign" that is used for electronic signatures. When push comes to shove, their validity cannot be certain.
Actually electronic signitures are much harder to fake then standard paper signatures, stamps and seals. Much easier. The technology is still being deployed. More and more document types will change over to electronic signatures. No need to rush things. It is a tremdous cost and time savings
Lawyers don't like because they get paid by the hour. Why rush anything. Big banks are slowly and cautiouly deploying the technology. There is a large upfront cost of deploying the technology enterprise Moving from a physical document based model to a digital storage based model.
Messengers are here to stay, In what numbers, that is debateable, there will always be a need for them.
Yep ... merely pointing out that SOME political morons believe them to be BULLETPROOF, and electronic signatures are NOT. I've had to testify a number of times before legislators and agencies and DEMONSTRATE how, with the Microsoft "crypto API and signing kit" from "MSDN" I can generate fake documents in 250 milliseconds using Microsoft's own "MAKECERT.EXE" from the kit. And worse, it can be downloaded freely from Microsoft. :)
Nothing is bulletproof. I would not trust anything important to microsoft. Besides their history of crappy softeware. They are the biggest hacker target in the software industry.
Cleaning up Microsoft's messes is how I make my own living. :)
There are still *messengers* in NYC? I know the city is old-fashioned, but surely electronic communications exist there?
Forgive me, I couldn't *resist* ... here in New York State, under the watchful blind eye of the "make checks payable to Paturkey 2002" Department of Public Shafting (PSC or DPS if you actually have their address), we have this thing called "VERIZON" which is one of the shoddiest telcos on the planet (YES, they're worse than BT and then some) ... in the "Tech Valley" of upstate DIALUP is about as good as it gets, and with cities 20 or more miles apart, a bicycle messenger will get a single page document to the recipient faster than a FAX machine ... hell, that's why we still have PONIES ... they're a bit faster than a bicycle.
For an "Empire State" New York remains the joke of the internet. :(
And now that Verizon is OWED largesse, we're not expecting any improvements for a number of years.
Funny you should say that... When I needed to get some docs to FDNY HQ at Metrotech, the young lady I spoke to on the phone said I could fax 'em. After THREE attempts, I drove 'em over in the car. Took me less time than the three fax attempts, too. Would've been even faster if I'd gone by subway (reading and memorizing the BERA rulebook on the way). ;-)
Yeah, "Empire State" ... well, at least the BUSINESS COUNCIL (Verizon) is happy. But yeah, ain't it pathetic? I can understand it up HERE, but NYC? :(
We're fortunate though - as an Internet Company, *OUR* servers are located in Frostbite Falls, Minnesota (no joke) where there's access to T1's and DSL ... so New York gets beat out of the employees (and taxes) - they live and work in MINNESOTA, and because "we" are NOT in New York, New York loses taxes on the sales too since we're AUTHORS and not a MANUFACTURER. Dumbasses ... but hey ... this is New York. Some Looto tickets, some Injun casinos and we'll never MISS the "internet" ... it's only porn anyway. :)
For an "Empire State" New York remains the joke of the internet.
Why is NY called the "Empire State"? Last time I checked, NY had no colonies, unless you count Staten Island.
Heh. Good one. Colonialisation attempts in New Jersey apparently failed. :)
>>> Colonialisation attempts in New Jersey apparently failed. <<<
Unless you count the Meadows. :-)
Tom
Heh. Touché!
They mispelled Vampire.
Anyway, to stray BACK on topic, the fare structures proposed are the result of the sacking of the economy by political morons who gave away money they didn't have. ANY "revenue" agency that can get its mitts on the public wallet has been issued brass rings to try to make up for a MASSIVE deficit that will be distributed to other wallets, under the guise of "this agency has a deficit so that it can contribute MORE to the 'general fund' of the state" ... the transit fare hikes are NOTHING compared to what's about to come in the coming months. :(
But I knew the numbers back in September, and the $2.00 was GUARANTEED. What surprises me is that they didn't go for $2.25 or more. Then again, we're still in the OLD fiscal year. The NEW one is supposed to start on April 1, but there ain't gonna be a budget THIS year. When MTA gets their "2003 budget" numbers, PASSED by the legislature and signed by Paturkey, the numbers they're going on now will need FURTHER "adjustment" just as I'd promised from the data.
Whoops! "has been issued brass rings" should have read "brass knuckles" ... but bear in mind that the anticipation and planning for a $2.00 fare NOW is based on there NOT being a budget for THIS year and the MTA still "living" on LAST year's budget. While April Fool's day is the OFFICIAL start of the fiscal year for NYS, the budget hasn't happened within weeks or months of that date in NINETEEN YEARS.
MTA won't know what next year's budget will be until the legislature PASSES one ... and the odds aren't looking good:
"From gloomy to gloomier in state economic forecast"
Silver, Bruno offer revenue projections
and for a peek into how agencies are being shaken down for the general fund, one single example ...
Transfer of state environmental funds defended
MTA, Thruway Authority, SUNY, Medicaid, Health, local schools, local governments, DMV you name it, ALL being shaken down at gunpoint ...
(Albany Times Union, no subscription required)
Bottom line, MTA will be back for more ... in a few months. It ain't over 'til it's over when the FatCat sings ...
There are still *messengers* in NYC? I know the city is old-fashioned, but surely electronic communications exist there? When the London and Blackwall Railway was built - one of the first urban trains in the world - one of its main traffics was messengers taking bills of lading, etc., between shipping company officis in the City of London and the ships lying in the docks at Blackwall. It seems NYC is still living in the 1840s.........(Deliberately provocative remark).
Heh. I sometimes wonder whether New York has even made it as far as the 1840's. It's got to be the least future-oriented city in the United States, with its people wallowing in nostalgia for the long-vanished past and fearful of the future. Pathetic.
"people wallowing in nostalgia for the long-vanished past and fearful of the future"
I'm not sure if this is entirely the case. While it certainly is true that NYC has been slow to embrace the 21st century, I think many other places have been, too. NYC is NOT terminally unique in this regard. However, if I may "wallow" a bit:
THE PAST
R-1/9s all over the system
Low fares
CUNY open and free
Station Break at Penn Station
Nostalgia Special trains every week
Duct tape was what you put on your CAR, not your HOUSE
THE FUTURE
Transnational terrorists
Wars we can't afford
CUNY tuition up 4 times in the last 6 years, no longer open admits
$2.00 fares and climbing
K-Mart where Station Break used to be
Talking trains in the subway that aren't HALF as fun as the Arnines
Duct tape being hawked by your government
All the Nostalgia trains are few and far between
Any questions?
What was the Station Break?
Peace,
ANDEE
Station Break was a huge video arcade on the site of the present K-Mart. There was another arcade called Space Station near the 8th Avenue IND entrance, also on the LIRR level.
I remember space station, that location is still empty, don't remember station break. Thx.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't remember which arcade was which. But I think there was one closer to the IND Booths at 34/8. Either it didn't do well. Or I was working in the area at the wrong time.
The MTA hates the day pass and they've said so. I don't think they're worried about railfans so much as they consider them a subsidy to businesses who send messengers on the subway.
A fun pass currently makes sense, as compared to pay-per-ride, if you're going to make three or more trips per day. Under the new structure, it'll be four or more. I just don't see that as having much of an effect on messenger services.
Interesting point, but I don't see the problem with messengers. The subways are empty middays. (Seriously, on my line, I have to stand when I ride rush hours, evenings, weekdays -- but never middays.) With all the spare capacity on the trains, why not collect a few dollars per person per day and fill them up?
It's the rush hour passengers that cost a lot to accomodate. All capital expansions are done to accomodate the peak. And that's when most 30-day unlimited cardholders travel. So aren't we giving the discount to the wrong people?
(Incidentally, wouldn't messengers use 30-day passes?)
When I was younger and a messenger, my boss would give me 2 tokens to get to the location and back. If I was to go back to doing that now, I could get a 30 day card and make the money back by keeping the 2 tokens I'd get for every delivery.
When I was younger and a messenger, my boss would give me 2 tokens to get to the location and back. If I was to go back to doing that now, I could get a 30 day card and make the money back by keeping the 2 tokens I'd get for every delivery.
Chances are, most bosses today would be wise to that sort of idea.
Probably.
"Monthly Unlimited - $63 to $70 -- 11.11% increase
Weekly Unlimited - $17 to $21 -- 23.53% increase
Pre-Purchase Bonus -- 11/$15 to 6/$10 -- 22.79% increase
Fun Pass -- $4 to $7 -- 75% increase "
Just to add...
Single Ride -- $1.50 to $2.00 -- 33% increase
MTA Bridges -- $3.50 to $4.00 -- 14.29% increase (not clear if EZ Pass will go from $3.00 to $3.50 or what the change will be)
Commuter Rail -- 25% increase, details not disclosed. There had been some discussion of bringing back the smaller fare zones that disappeared back in the 70's. This would probably mean that commuters from Eastern Nassau and Eastern Queens would get socked the hardest percentage wise.
So now everyone can see where they stack up in the grand scheme of things.
>>>Single Ride -- $1.50 to $2.00 -- 33% increase <<<
I cant wait to see how they deal with token elimination. Will they sell single ride tickets at the booth? Stay tuned to this channel.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Single Ride -- $1.50 to $2.00 -- 33% increase <<<<
I cant wait to see how they deal with token elimination. Will they sell single ride tickets at the booth? Stay tuned to this channel.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyone who works in a token booth can't wait to hear it themselves.
Maybe they'll start accepting golden dollars in on the buses, and "selling" them in the token booths.
Dollar coins have been accepted on buses since the first automated fareboxes were installed in the 80's. (Before that, presumably anything that fit was accepted.)
(Dollar coins have been accepted on buses since the first automated fareboxes were installed in the 80's. (Before that, presumably anything that fit was accepted.)
The dollar coin has once again failed, because retail stores don't like it. I like the dollar coin, but I have found out that it doesn't matter what I or other consumers like. The cash machines give us $20s. The merchants give us everything else. So it matters what they like, not what I like. Dollar coins are heavier than bills, and current change drawers are not meant to accomodate them, so that's that.
The real disappointment is the vending machine industry. They pushed for a dollar coin, for obvious reasons. You'd think they'd have bill changers that accept a $5.00 or $10.00 and returned dollar coins, for use in their machines. But in many cases they haven't even modified the machines to accept the coins.
The dollar coin has failed again simply because Treasury won't stop printing/issuing dollar bills. As long as this goes on, the dollar coin will never become popular as people in general don't want to give up the familiar (also applies to tokens in NYC).
At BSM we had to get a new soda machine last year(our old 1972 model died) which (surprisingly) does accept dollar coins. It also takes $1 dollar bills and allows more soda selections. Apparently some vending manufacturers do make machines that take dollar coins.
Holding change in a vending machine costs money. Money that could be used to stock another machine. It just dose not make sense for the average soda vending machine to carry much change. It cost less to loose a few sales then to provide the change.
In the case of MVM's, the new fare structure should help the MTA keep the MVM's uptime better because they do not have to stock as many quarter and could add more dollar coins. In the case of the MTA, the savings by reducing token booth clerks outweighs the cost of coin inventory. And since they are a government agency, they have virtually unlimited amounts of low interest credit line to manage thier cash flow
I agree with you.
However, since postage stamp dispensers, fare card, commuter rail ticket and token dispensers in many cities take them and dispense them as change, the dollar coins will persist.
If the token is going to go bye-bye, why not do what the Baltimore MTA did with tokens: Continue to sell them in bulk packs ONLY (in NYC, 10 for $19.00, for example) and restrict the sale to one place only. Don't want to use Metrocard? You will have to go to a NYCT run central outlet (presumably downtown) to get tokens.
In Baltimore you can still buy tokens, but only at the MTA's Transit Store in the William Donald Schaefer Tower. Open 9 AM - 5PM weekedays only. They are not sold anywhere else. Currently they are sold 10 to a package for $11.00, which gives the buyer a 5 cent reduction for the base fare.
Our base is going up to $1.50 on July 1. Tokens will most likely go to 10 for 14.00, which will give a 10 cent reduction. Considering that less than 1% of riders use them, it's not a real serious issue.
Or at the MVM's.
They will probably do it just like at LIRR, i.e. that "green" Transfer will come out of the Token Booth as well as MVM (LIRR agent will sell you a MC without LIRR ticket), UNLESS it's part of their plan to elimate most Token Booths, i.e. you can only get a single ride from a MVM or by jumping the turnstile.
now this looks totally different now than when i was once there
i remember this same exact location etc......
....whew !!
georgia 400 & a marta train ??....wow ..........lol !!
Newsday Article
Peace,
ANDEE
“The token is not going to be abolished next week,” said MTA spokesman Tom Kelly."
I don't think the token will go yet.
Exactly, it will not go now, and it will not go next week.
But on the day of the fare hike: Goodbye token!
WWW.thetube.com has the story of Britain's worst civilian disaster of WW2:
http://www.thetube.com/content/metro/03/0303/04/
and it was at a tube station being used as an air-raid shelter - IIRC the station was't actually open as a station yet, it was one of the ones almost completed before WW2 but not opened until after the war.
Right. Somewhat of a vague title, so I'll make things more specific now. In the 'J-Super Express' topic, we have been discussing ways of moving more customers from Jamaica through the Broadway/Jamaica El lines, but I think that approach might be several years behind its time, as we've now built a 63rd Street Tunnel.
My understanding is that the original purpose behind the 63rd Street tunnel was not to connect it to the Queens boulevard line, but rather to borrow some words from elsewhere,
"The original proposal was to have subway trains travel below the Sunnyside Yard all the way to the east side and occupy an abandoned right of way going into the heart of Queens at 71st Street. This was in 1963, explained Richard L. Mitchell, technical director of new routes for Metropolitan Trans-portation Authority/New York City Transit (MTA/NYCT).
By the late 1970s, funding had run out for the project. New York City was going through a financial crisis. As a result, the project was terminated at 29th Street in Long Island City, N.Y. The project was then studied to see how it could be made a viable subway project. The concept was then developed to link the uncompleted project into the existing Queens Boulevard subway lines, Mitchell explained."
I'm not sure what this abandoned ROW that is spoken of is, but I assume it is the LIRR line that runs between Long Island City and Jamaica, and if so, it would only be semi-abandoned, as about 10 trains per day (wasted capacity, eh?) follow that route. Thus, my (perhaps ill-conceived) query, wondering if the link-up could still be done, either through the upper or lower level of the 63rd Street Tunnel.
A related query of mine has to do with the Rutgers Street Tunnel and the Mnahattan Bridge: Has there ever been any proposal to connect service from the Rutgers tunnel to DeKalb Avenue? The current feasibilty of doing so depends on the projected lifespan and viability of the Manhattan Bridge, i.e, if, say, we're going to have to shut one side of the bridge down again a few years down the road, then the Rutgers Street connection begins to look like a much better idea.
So, there you have it: two queries on connections that are, and with respect to what they should be.
"My understanding is that the original purpose behind the 63rd Street tunnel was not to connect it to the Queens boulevard line, but rather to borrow some words from elsewhere, "
True, but it wasn't long after that a local connection to Queens Blvd was seen as desirable, in addition to what you read.
There's no use crying over spilled milk. The past is gone - but the future is coming.Physically, a lot of options are still available. The ROW is still there, and you can plug a diversion onto the existing 63rd Street line. Find the money, build political support, and I wish you luck.
"There's no use crying over spilled milk. The past is gone - but the future is coming."
Right. Thus my unwillingness to entitle the post "What Is and What Should Never Be" after Led Zeppelin. I'm far more interested in what could be, realistically, than nostalgically looking back in this case.
"Physically, a lot of options are still available. The ROW is still there, and you can plug a diversion onto the existing 63rd Street line."
At the risk of sounding immodest, I think it's a good plan just because I find it almost offensive that the ROW in question has SO much unused potential, something that is in rather short supply on the Queens Boulevard Express tracks.
The MTA Did Not Exist until 1967!
I don't read my post as implying otherwise. Do you?
From Today's NY Times on-line, front page:
"Transit officials also said they would study the feasibility of a two-week unlimited MetroCard, which would be more easily within the reach of lower-income riders."
I had thought that idea was rejected. It's still opn the table. The Straphangers championed it. I support it and wrote to MTA asking that they implement it.
We'll see what happens.
Found on my desk this morning a copy of an IEEE newsletter with a summary of a presentation to IEEE by Jack Buchsbaum, Chief Electrical Engineer of the PANYNJ. The summary of the presentation in the newsletter was by Bennie Yee and I'm going to highlight that summary here:
1. Track connections made at west end of Exchange Place to allow crossover movements between the tracks. The article makes it sound like trains from the JSQ branch AND the HOB branch will be able to make the crossover, so it seems that three crossovers were installed, one between the two inbound tracks, one between the two outbound tracks, and one between the two centermost tracks closest to the platform. If so it might look mighty cavernous down there after the fact with all the tunnel walls broken through. Also platforms extended on both sides to handle 10 car trains. Cost $160 Million.
2. Claims that crews are working "around the clock" on WTC station-- contrary to reports here that they aren't working three full shifts
3. Tunnel plugs installed at Exchange Place after 9/11 have been removed. Interior of tunnels under the river were stripped bare of anything other than the cast iron rings, including electrical & communication, sidewall ducts, and roadbed. New duct banks of fiberglass conduit pipe installed.
4. New concrete roadbed laid in tunnels; track attached to bed without ties (ala original 63rd Street tunnel work that later had to be replaced). Larger capacity third rail installed (originally 70 lb/ft now 150 lb/ft) that decreases the voltage loss thru the tunnel. Power provided from NJ end (probably substation on Washington Blvd near Newport)
5. WTC station - escalators will not initially be installed. Temporary elevators will be installed for disabled access. But probably the original escalator run under the IRT will be preserved for later reuse. After the plans for the buildings above are finalized they'll figure out where to position permanent escalators and elevators to the station.
-Dave
Good news. Sounds like they made some important improvements.
PATH service will return, and be more flexible to boot.
WTC station - escalators will not initially be installed. Temporary elevators will be installed for disabled access. But probably the original escalator run under the IRT will be preserved for later reuse. After the plans for the buildings above are finalized they'll figure out where to position permanent escalators and elevators to the station.
Given the depth of the station, at least from what you can see now, it looks as if getting to and from it will require a lot of stairs.
Yeah, a lot of stairs! What would be so hard about installing a complete new set of escalators? If they have to be ripped out in two years and replaced with another new set, so be it.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is IEEE an acronym for?
Peace,
ANDEE
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
Mark
Yesh, I worked for them from 2/05/1973 until 8/15/1974 as a data entry operator - key to disc system. Their HQ was at 345 East 47th street, a structure that is now, unfortunately gone.
wayne
>> Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers <<
Yes. And technically, it's an abbreviation, not an acronym. Acronyms are abbreviatons pronounceable as words; so BART, RADAR, SCUBA & MADD are acronyms, while MTA, CSX, TBTA and IEEE are not.
Simply taking the initals of a series of words and stringing them together does not necessarily make an acronym.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Just curious, did you look that up?
From Mirriam Webster www.m-w.com
a word (as NATO, radar, or snafu) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term
nothing there about pronouncability. I've never ever heard that was a requirement. What's your source?
It's not a word if it can't be pronounced.
IEEE can be pronounced as a word, but it'll sound like it's the title of a Bjork song.
[youth mode: OFF]
It's right there in your source: >>a word (emphasis added) (as NATO, radar, or snafu) <<
Generally, words are pronounceable as such. Few would argue that the letter sequence "aabbcc" was a word, but they would surely say that bart is.
But if you must have a better source, here's one from the US Dept. of Education (although they draw a distinction between an acronym and an initialism, of which I was previously unaware):
http://www.y12.doe.gov/acronyms/intro.htm
My initial sources were all the nuns that taught English at my schools during childhood. The rule we recited ad infinitum was: "All acronyms are abbreviations, but not all abbreviations are acronyms."
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Never argue with a nun (they should register their rulers with the PD as deadly weapons).
A distinction is made between true acronyms (Nato, scuba), true initialisms (FBI =EffBeeEye, MTA=EmTeeA, MI5=EmEyeFive), and a third category generally referred to as mixed forms (e.g., Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association).
Some people get uptight when you mention the three categories, in that they have to unlearn calling all of them 'acronyms'.
Except the DOE (and yeah, I got it wrong, it's Dept. of Energy, not Education) site makes initalisms a subset of acronyms...
MTA wouldn't be an intialism, because it still doesn't meet the "pronounceable as a word" requirement. FBI and MTA are abbreviations, not initialisms, nor acronyms...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
This is getting off topic. But 'MTA' is indeed an initialism. We pronounce each letter by each letter's actual pronounced name, as when one recites the alphabet: MTA=Em-Tee-A.
The two female deer that constitute the initials of two Federal departments (Energy and Education) probably have something inside the Beltway to quickly distinguish one from the other. Dep'ped and Dep'en sound about right.
C.f.: POTUS for (President of the United States), FLOTUS (First Lady of the United States) -- true acronyms -- vs the mixed forms SecState, SecDef, SecTreas, et alii.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is IEEE an acronym for?
It's not an acronym. It's a written representation of the shreik of anguish I just made when I found out that Long Island Rotten Road fares are going up.
Any mention as to if the concrete "guards" will be re-installed. There were the concrete walls that the cable conduits ran through on either side of the track. They were designed to stop a derailed train from damaging the iron tunnel shield. The tunnels really won't have the same feel without the guards and ties.
No, it just said the new conduit was fiberglass pipe. I guess similar to PVC tubing... Didnt' say whether it was encased in anything. Guess we'll find out soon enough!
Does the majority of people that work in Midtown (ie Rockefeller Center) commute in from the suburbs or the city?
If alot of people from say, Long Island, work in Midtown, there would be a large benefit from the long awaited LIRR's arrival to Grand Central.
There seems to be alot of LIRR riders taking the west side IRT uptown to Times Square and 50th street/Broadway, coming from Penn station.
There is just as many going downtown as well, but the crowding on the IRT at Times Square is the worst I've seen in the system, and no doubt if the LIRR finally gets connected to Grand Central some of this will subside.
Also you got a real jam of GCT bound riders in the AM on the shuttle, in the PM, going back to Times Square.
HMMM.. is this deja vu...I've seen this subject somewhere before. Can't remember where though. Straphangers. Must've been a dream.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, I did post the question there as well. I'm just curious as to how much benefit to LIRR riders is the connection to GCT. I'm under the impression a good deal of Midtown workers come from the LIRR, and going into GCT would benefit them.
Among people who take the IRT from Penn in the morning, I'd guess that those heading northbound outnumber those heading southbound by at least 2:1. Northbounders also predominate on the IND, although I don't think the difference is quite so great.
Northbounders on the IND -- specifically the E train -- outnumber southbounders by more than 2:1 -- especially post 9/11. Crowding on the Queensbound E platform is so bad they've had to put 2 or 3 platform conductors on duty. The vast majority get off at 53/5 or 53/Lex -- so I assume these would be likely ESA riders.
CG
They don't get off at 53/Lex in the morning rush anymore. Queens-bound E and V trains bypass 53/Lex between 7:30 and 9:30.
I once rode an E from 53/7 to Queens just before 9:30. The crowding at 53/5 was truly a sight to behold, and this was after 9! I still think Manhattan-bound trains should have been the ones to skip. Sure, there are more passengers from Queens, but they have easier alternate routes: transfer at Queens Plaza to the R, or go to 53/5 and backtrack downstairs. I also wonder how many LIRR commuters have been getting off at Jamaica instead of Penn and crowding onto the E to get directly to 53/Lex.
I also wonder how many LIRR commuters have been getting off at Jamaica instead of Penn and crowding onto the E to get directly to 53/Lex.
There might have been some increase, but I haven't noticed anything.
There was an increase, and when I used that route, I noticed people getting on or off with me (I also often did the opposite - I went from a Queens starting point to Jamaica to catch an outbound LIRR train).
However, the E train still has room inbound from Jamaica (after all, it started only one stop away) and outbound, a lot of people are off the train by the time it leaves Kew Gardens (but there is still a healthy number headed into Jamaica).
Probably not as many as you'd otherwise expect for two reasons:
1. Us Long Islanders tend to like our patterns and aren't particularly creative at figuring out new ways to do something unless we absolutely positively need to, and
2. A high percentage of LIRR AM peak trains to Penn do not stop at Jamaica, so this option is lost.
CG
Even on the E today as late as 10:15am, Lex/53rd was a zoo. People backed up just waiting to get out of the station.
"Does the majority of people that work in Midtown (ie Rockefeller Center) commute in from the suburbs or the city?"
The majority are from the city. The subways carry more people than LIRR, MNRR, PATH, and NJT combined. But the numbers from the suburbs are very large too.
I saw the movie "12 Angry Men" again last night for the first time in two years, and let me tell something, it seems to get better with age. Many of the characters in the film like Jack Klugman, Martin Balsam, and Robert Warden went on to be great character actors. Edward Binns will always be on my shit list because of his portrayal of Walter Bedell Smith, Eisenhower's pathetic pencil pusher, who did more to try and destroy the great General George S. Patton's career than anyone else. It didn't work. Patton now ranks as the greatest general of World War II, while others have seen their reputations take a dive because of new revelations about their mistakes and incompetencies-----like Ike, Bradley, Montgomery, Hodges, and the rest.
It is a great movie, and it does get better with age, doesen't it? I especially like the el angle of "Can you see something through a moving train?" there, OT again 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Done deal this afternoon.
...when all MTA fares went up at the same time. Is this something new or is it just my faulty memory?
Peace,
ANDEE
It happened at the same time for a while.
T/O's and C/R's will probably like this one. Today over the radio, Control gave their usual speil about "Conductors must afford customers sufficient time to entrain and detrain." And one crew's response over the radio was: "As long as they hurry up control." :)
I guess the CTA here in Chicago is adding the capability to use cell phones in our 11 miles or so of subway.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-cta06.html
"Subways in New York City and Washington, D.C., already are partly accessible to wireless users."
Really??
Anyone know where?
Some spots where cell phones do work, (enough to receive your voice and email alerts, not to make a call unless you are stuck in one of those infamous BIE's):
On the Lenox Invert (most spots)
Partial on the Lexington Ave line from 23rd st to 33rd st
At 23rd st/28th st Broadway BMT
Jamaica/Van Wyck, E line
Essex St/BMT
Nevins St and Atlantic Ave/IRT (you can use it anywhere on IRT end at Atlantic Ave.)
Vernon Blvd/Jackson Ave (under one of those grilles)
north end of Hunters Point Ave
I have also received alerts while I was at 161st ST/River Ave/IND from time to time. Also Dekalb Ave/Flatbush Ave is possible, however the reception is worse since the restrooms were shored up from the flooding, and street excavation on Flatbush Ave above
"Dekalb Ave/Flatbush Ave "
There are Air vents directly up to the street at Dekalb which sometimes lets signals penatrate down. Having cellphone service in the subway is a significant safety improvement. What recourse does a person on a 75ft rail car have in the case of an emergency(assuming not in the first car or the conductors car)
I don't disagree that it would help in an emergency but do you really want to hear people making or getting phone calls all day long while you are riding the subway?
I ride the #6 and you wouldn't believe how many cell phone start ringing when we get outside after leaving Hunts Point. I used to think that the boom-boxes being used on the subway back in the 1980's was annoying. The cell phone is just as annoying.
Cell phones should be held to the same standard as other electronic noise making devices.
1)Ringers should be turned off
2)Exterior speaker phone aka nextel(verizon soon) walky talky should be disallowed
Other then that, someone talking on the phone is no differnt then someone talking to the person next to one another. Although it can be anoying at times, it should be allowed especially if the riding public overall would bennifit from additional revenue
A few years back the MTA was offeres a few million dollars to allow one of the phone companies to install service. The straphangers campaign of course opposed. Strapahangers campaign believe in a socialistic system where the government should pay the large majority of transit cost. We should keep as many people employed and just increase government aid
Culver, Sea Beach, West End, Brighton south of Newkirk, 2/5 north of 149/3 Ave, 4 north of 161, 3 south of Utica, 6 north of Hunts Point, 7 between Willets Pt and Vernon/Jackson, about 50 sq ft at DeKalb, a small stretch on the R south of 59 St/4 ave, J/M from Essex to Met and 121 St, A from Grant Ave south to all three terminals, L from Wilson to Rock Park, etc.
Corrections:
Brighton line south of Church Ave after the last tunnel going towards BB, it does work most of the time at Newkirk Ave.
4 line, south of 161st st, not North as you mentioned.
You also forgot:
N/W from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria
1/9 from Dyckman to 242/VCP
Also: on the E platform at WTC
Brighton line starting at Prospect park except for a few dead spots in the tuunel at parkside ave and church Ave works with Verizon wireless
From the Article it looks like NYCT may have missed out on an opurtunity to Get Cell phone access installed for free. A few years back NYCT could have named thier price. They still may be able to. Upstarts such as Cirgular/T-Mobile(use the same towers) could use the installation to gain an advantage in signing up customer. There service is so bad they need all the help they can get.
My service, Sprint, is no better either. Between PP and Parkside, there is no service (dead spot)
I here you about Sprint, I have them and find 10th Avenue between 57 Street and about 61 Street or so is dead, and this is on the surface of the street, outdoors. I also lose the signal many times around B'way between about 58 and 55.
Sprint (and other "CLEC's") are at a disadvantage since NYS's PSC (which doesn't believe an "Empire State" deserves DSL) has a nasty habit of checking Paturkey and Bruno's checkbook to see if Sprint has given enough (BUZZZZZZZzzzzzz ... not enough) ... upstate, if you've got ANYTHING BUT Verizon (permitted to place rectal cell phone antennas directly in bears) ... you scrood ...
Cell phone? vertibrate or invertibrate, whazzat? Welcome to New York - your internet options are "Casino" or "lotto" ... next! :)
New Yorkers need to be sufficiently grateful to get a DIALTONE - anything beyond that is "providence" ... ah, if only republicans had been "intelligence briefed" that there was an "internet" out there. But HEY, we got DUCT TAPE TECHNOLOGY! Woohoo!
But none of those are "subways".
All that you mentioned are above ground, or in an open cut.
I want to know where in the subway you can use your cell phone.
I want to know where in the subway you can use your cell phone.
Only in a few scattered spots, as noted elsewhere in the thread. Not enough to be useful to any extent.
Another part of this thread listed some places.
I also get good Verizon Wireless signal (and have placed calls while waiting for trains) on the platforms at Fulton St (4/5) and Brooklyn Bridge.
Does anyone have the maximum (Rush Hour) train requirement for all the lines (Division A and B)?
If so, can you post it here?
I used to like to watch Lexington Ave el operations from the 111th St platform in 1949 & 1950. I'm curious as to the station's current condition.
Are the switches and center track still maintained?
Are trains occasionally laid up there?
Does the small control room at the east end of the city bound platform still exist?
Are both mezanines at this station still in service?
Do you mean 111 St on the current Jamaica Line? If so,
Yes, the track is maintained, and trains are seen there occasionally. The room is there, but I doubt it's functional. That interlocking was probably consolidated into 121st St's.
Just last December there was construction on the Archer Av line, so two out of every three Js terminated at 111th Street, the other took a dense crowd of PO'd passengers the rest of the way, on the wrong track after 121st Street. At Sutphin it filled up on more angry passengers who wanted to go back to Manhattan, ended up at Parsons. 1 1/2 weeks later, I saw a work train on that center track. I don't think they maintain the portion of the center track to the west of the switches, though. I tried to get a picture of the train on this track, but I was still new to the camera then and the picture didn't come out right. I do have a picture of the control-room, though, at http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/12-26-02/0189_111_Ja
I think the only exit is at the other end opposite the control-room. Its mostly boarded-up, but I remember a wall or part of the roof was missing.
Thank you for the info!
When the Lexington Ave el was still in operation, the rush hour turnback was 111th St and Jamaica Ave. It was a fascinating operation to watch as they made three car trains into five and vice-versa. Extra cars were stored on the portion of the track between the two platforms. Oct 13th, 1950 was the end of a great train watching location.
Thanks for the control room picture link. It's bigger than I remembered it. I wonder if the portion on the left side of your picture was added on since my days there.
Are the switches and center track still maintained?
Barely enough to keep them operational. The middle track is in awful condition.
Are trains occasionally laid up there?
Every now and then.
Does the small control room at the east end of the city bound platform still exist?
Yes.
Are both mezanines at this station still in service?
No. The northern mezzane has been blocked off, acess only available through a locked door. I'm not sure what the mezanine is used for today.
That mezzanine has been closed for years. I took a J train to 111th St. 25 years ago and had to walk all the way back to the 111th St. end of the station in order to leave. Then I had to backtrack to 113th.
Perhaps the mezzanine now contains spare parts for maintaining the interlocking here.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_022603_lirrproblems.html#
After reading the story about the c3's it makes you wonder.
Any a few questions, I ride the PJ line a lot. Some of the coaches have sqeeching brakes. Sometimes, for the whole length of the application. What happened to the dynamic brakes on the locomotive? Are they not working? Happens on many of the C3's.
What other problems besides bad brakes and power transition problems are there?
Also, did the LIRR have any prior knowledge that these machines were problem prone?
The DE/DM 30's do not have Dynamic brakes, they do have blended brakes.
with Blended brakes the locomotive uses Dynamic under certain conditions like speed and air pressure. while coaches use regular airbrakes at same time, there is no seperate dynamic brake.
They are a new type in the industry, after working out the bugs, they are probably the best the commuter rail coaches in the country
It is now 2003. The working out the bugs excuse is no longer acceptable. There was also no excuse why they could not have bough Comet cars like Metro North, only to be different, and buy cars that can never thru 63rd Street or to Brooklyn.
All the cars on Metrolink out here in southern California have squealing brakes. It's cause by dust on the brake rotors.
The Amtrak Amfleet cars used to HOWL when brakes were applied. Again, the disc brakes were the music-makers.
And the Pacific Surfliner cars out here, too, have squealing brakes.
The absolute WORST squealers were the Budd R32's when they were brand new. And they had, from what I recall, only shoe brakes.
Because most months have 31 days instead of 30(or 28/29 combined with 30)
>>> Because most months have 31 days instead of 30(or 28/29 combined with 30) <<<
Do the math: 365/12 = 30.417 :-)
Tom
366/12 = 30.5 or 365.25/12= 30.4375 either way 31 days IS better
366/12 = 30.5 or 365.25/12= 30.4375
either way 31 days IS better than 30 days and with the new hike, an extra day should be added on to the highest unlimited card
>>> either way 31 days IS better than 30 days <<<
And from the standpoint of the purchaser, 40 days would be better than 31. In either case, (31 rather than 30, or 40 rather than 30), it is a reduction of price of the card. That is something that would not be better for the MTA.
Tom
Actually, since 30X12 = 360, riders are getting an extra discount from the monthly unlimited Metrocard. You're paying for a 30 day month, and the MTA throws in the last 5 days for free.
That's an extra 1.4% discount!
(BTW, Tom, the MetroCard insurance program will be coming with a fee - so congrats again).
Once again: NYCT does not offer a monthly unlimited MetroCard. NYCT offers a 30-day unlimited MetroCard. Twelve such cards used back-to-back cover only 360 days.
The commuter railroads offer monthly unlimited MetroCards in conjunction with monthly commutation tickets, at an even greater discount (only available to commuter railroad passengers). And I believe the one-year TransitChek card costs the same as 12 30-day cards but is valid for a full year. But the standard NYCT 30-day unlimited card is valid for 30 days from first use, and not a day more.
I stand corrected.
However, Tranitchek applies toMetroCard too (if your employer participates).
So a $70 MetroCard paid in pretax dollars can actually cost you $51, which makes a good deal even better.
TransitChek monthly Metrocards are purchased by the month, but they are still 30-day cards. There have bene times that my card has expired before I've received the next month's card.
It's not a monthly card. Nowhere does NYCT refer to a monthly card. NYCT offers a 30-Day Unlimited Ride MetroCard. It's valid for 30 days from first use, as well it should be.
On the other hand, the unlimited ride MetroCards that the monthly commuter tickets for LIRR/MNR are printed on *are* monthly cards, valid for the same calendar month as the ticket, be it 28, 29, 30 or 31 days.
--Mike
interesting
At some point during his reign, Augustus Caesar had the month of Sextillis renamed Augustus in his honor. It was a nice position as it was right next to his Uncle Julius (Caesar), not to be confused with Orange Julius!
But there was one problem, how could the Emperor's month have only 30 days? So a day was stolen from February so it went to being 28/29 instead of 29/30 as it was. To prevent three consecutive months from being 31 days long, September and November were dropped from 31 to 30 days, and October and December were increased from 30 to 31.
Instead of having 6 31 day months, and 5 30 day months, with a perfect 6-6 in leap years, it went to the current stupid 7-4 every year arrangement.
Imagine this rhyme:
"Thirty days hath October, April, June, August and December"
Seems to me MTA held Hearings on fare proposal knowing full well that its a done deal no matter who speaks to them.The budget defecit has several solutions,1 reducing MTA executive salaries which average around 150 k a year.How about those insane construction projects that serve no purpose and cost millions of Dollars.I cant wait till the Books are deciphered and we see what Paturkeys homeboys are really using the money for.I actually feel bad for the passengers who will have to schlep out 21 a week for less and dirtier service.I wish Straphangers Campaign could do a mass protest Like no one take a train or bus for a week,even though I know that could never happen it would be justice for the executive board ,Paturkey's Lackeys who all have free Metrocards and E Z passes.They have no Idea how bad 21 dollars in this economy could hurt some families.
1) Hearings are required by law
2) to allow the little people to be heard (after a fashion).
3) it blows off steam, people thinking that they have been heard
4) an unlimited forum for NIMBYs
5) occasionally a point that might be useful may appear.
:)
They have hearings just stay in "compliance" with state law and to make it look good. After all, how can they maintain their high salaries in poor economic times without a fare hike? Plus all those free MetroCards and EZ-Passes gotta cost something. But it's the working man, as always, who gets socked in the end.
50 cent fare increase=
$5.00 more each week
$20.00 more each month
$240 more each year
OR
$17 more each month
$204 more each year
(for monthly MetroCard)
That's a nice chunk of change, reducing annual disposable income by at least $204. But the MTA bigs ride free, with NO pay cut...
>>> reducing MTA executive salaries which average around 150 k a year <<<
150k per year is certainly not an extravagant salary for MTA upper management.
Tom
Ok, I know these are a little out of date, but I havent had time to post them yet. Here is set 2 of my Chicago Trip Pics. They cover Day 2 where I took the Metra electric to University Park and then rode the L around. It also covers the next day's commute into the city.
Here is Metra Electric engine #122 laying over at University Park
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_122.jpg
122 Had a bad heater in the first car so the crew was nice enough to swap it back to a later car in the consist that would run out of service
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_Electric-car-swapout.jpg
Here is KENSINGTON tower on the Metra Electric / CNIC Main Line. This tower is there both the CSS&SB and Metra Electric Blue Island branches divervge. Many ppl thought KENSINGTON would be closed by now, but it just keeps on truckin.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/KENSINGTON.jpg
Here is the view from KENSINGTON's southern home signal. Boy, what an eclectic mix of signals here! There are newly installed small target SafeTran traffic lights, older V target SafeTran signals, classic US&S V target's with metal backings and "pill" style 2-light restricting heads and what may be unique 4 lamp lower head target signal, a SafeTran model added after its US&S brethern above it. Notice the "end CTC" signs indicating that the interlocking is still direct wire controlled. Our trains is getting an APPROACH indication for some reason.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/KENSINGTON-s-Home.jpg
Here we are just past KENSINGTON when I got this amazingly clear through the front window show of this CNIC engine. Also note the old US&S large target traffic lights still burning strong even in this CTC segment of the line
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CNIC_2513.jpg
Here a shot of the quad truss bridges as our train crosses the Chicago Ship and Sanitary Canal
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_Electric-Ship-Channel-2.jpg
Ha! You didn't think that NY Penn was the only place with a double slip scissors crossover. Don't know why they really needed one for the junction with the South Chicago Branch, but here it is. Notice the backlog on the #2 track waiting for us to move through the interlocking. There's a hi-liner train, a South Shore train and then another hi-liner comming down the tracks. Also notice again the use of V target's for home signals and large target traffic lights for the block signals.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_Electric-South-Chicago-Double-Slip-Scissors-Xover.jpg
Now of course I rode the EL. Here is a grade crossing on the Brown Line
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CTA_Brown-Line-Grade-Crossings-2.jpg
And everybodies favourite Skokie Swift
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CTA_Skokie-Swift.jpg
The Skokie RoW with its own grade crossings, note the special green "snitch" light that tells if the gates are working.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CTA_Skokie-Swift-grade-crossing.jpg
The following are three pics of the famout CNW semaphore dwarf signals. Probably some of the last in the country. The first picture is an overview, the other two are closeups both front and rear.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAKE_ST-Semaphore-dwarfs.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAKE_ST-semaphore-dwarf-ground-mount.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAKE_ST-Semaphore-dwarf-rear.jpg
Ever wonder how a double slip switch works? You're welcome to try studying this picture, but I doubt you'll have much luck. This example is in the CNW station throat. Note the yellow pipes for point heater gas.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CNW_Terminal-double-slip.jpg
A pic of LaSalle St (former NYC) station from Roosevelt Ave (Roosey Ave really does give you a view of everything important).
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_La-Salle-St.jpg
And what sort of person would I be if I didn't get a Chicago Skyline at Dusk picture. Note the big Union Station complex heating plant at the left, very reminicent of the plant at 30th St. Tempature was something like 18 degrees here on Roosevelt Ave and WINDY!
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CNWChicago-Skyline-dusk.jpg
Great pictures, Mike!
Thanks for posting them.
Hey! If monthlys are going up to 70, mine will go up from 31.50 to 35.00. Not too bad! The elderly and disabled aren't getting hit as hard. It pays, even at regular fare, to buy the monthly. The people who are really getting hit are the people who pay fare by fare. If you work more than 3 days a week, you're better off with the monthly.
Average person works 5 days a week. Let's say 2 subway fares a day at 2 bucks. 4 bucks a day. Four weeks a month, average. 4X5=20 for the week, 80 for the month. If you buy a monthly, that's 70 dollars, and you can ride on weekends, too!
yes and you can help raise ridership by having some people you know with unlimiteds ride buses for one or more stops(instead of walking at all) this is what the TA wants, the buses are running anyway, so why not just fill up the emptiest bus in service
LOL! I've done that when I felt lazy (all the time). The bus driver looks at you funny. ^_^
Just heard on channel 13 that Amtrak will rename the Acela Regional trains due to passengers who though they would be getting the same equipment as the Acela express and were disappointed when it wasn't. I believe the effective date is March 17.
T.B
Amtrak will drop the 'Acela' and simply call the trains 'Regionals'. No surprise, as it's well known that David Gunn is no fan of the Acela name.
JD
I posted about that 2 days ago, check it out:
ACELA will soon mean ACELA!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
Is there any place that is open on a Saturday in Manhattan that sells Fujichrome slide film almost as cheap as Adorama ?
K&M Camera on E. 23rd St. is open on Saturdays.
Right by SVA. They probably carry Fujichrome.
I saw a few B-trains running through 42nd street Times Square this afternoon. I found it odd but they (TA annoucments)said that I was rerouted because of problems at 59th street. the R68's looked nice on 8th avenue too bad Concourse has them
they would look nice on the C
did anyone see this today
Hmm.... Those R68's would never look good on the C Line, and besides over here in Brooklyn, the kids would tear them up badly, mostly from my school.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Your point is? Most of the R68's look torn up. :)
Got word that Plan 1 is in effect tonight. 239 Car Wash is closed also.
Plan 1?
I know, I've been trying to figure out what each plan entails myself. I posted before but got no response.
Plan I has been in effect for about 75% of the nights since winter began. Hardly newsworthy...
Just thought I'd share the information in case it wasn't news.
TD, can you detail the different plans and what each entails?
Thanks.
I think that this question came up last year and I gave the same, unsatisfactory answer that I'm about to give. The Winter Operations Plan or more frequently, the Cold Weather Plan identifies different actions that are taken depending on temperture and snowfall amounts. The plan is over 100 pages long so I'd not even try to commit it to memory. Some of the stages have become irrelovent over the years. The plan has 5 basic steps - dependent on temperture or snowfall threshholds.
I'll take a look at the plan tomorrow and see if I can condense it into a simple format but for now.
Plan I - Run maximum length trains (we don't cut anymore so this step is irrelovent. Trains left in yards are kept charged when deemed necessary.
Plan II - Lay up trains under cover where possible. Order mechanical drill (rocking) for trains not under cover. Crews called out early. Sweep yard tracks.
Plan III - Same as Plan II plus Activation of Storm Command Center staffed by reps from different operating dept.s. Rail polishing when necessary. Scraper shoes installed on trains. Yards are a low priority.
Plan IV - Snow fighting equip. ordered out as necessary. Possible service suspensions.
Plan V - More of the above, etc.
thanks for clearing that up
That's simple enough, at least I have a basic understanding.
Wasn't there also an order which directed crews to run maximum frequency of trains (e.g., rush hour services levels) on surface and elevated lines to defer ice and snow build up?
Thanks again, TD
Go read this one
It's not a very good plan.
Come to think of it, Mayor Bloomberg does look a little bit like Criswell...
And Paturkey's getting to look more and more like Bela every day. :)
Is it possible for ANY NYCTA rolling stock to be used on MARTA trackage?
And Why would they need our equipment?
I wanted to know just out of curiosity, even though it will never happen.
While the running rails are the same gauge, the voltage might not be. If MARTA uses 750 volt DC, NY cars can't run on it. Washington Metrorail uses 750 volts, as does LIRR (and Metro-North).
The question that first need to be answered is what the load gauge of MARTA and what is the load gauge on the NYCTA. My uneducated guess is that none of the NYCTA rolling stock would fit as it is to tall to fit through the tunnels.
I sure that NYCT cars are taller than MARTA cars, so they wouldn't fit in the tunnels. Also MARTA is 750V while NYCT is 600V.
50th and park closed.... suspicious package may be bomb police say
Just another sandwich someone forgot...(roll eyes)
this is getting ridiculious
I bet'cha it's just another stupid false alarm.Like I've said before, all this tight security stuff need's to be taken down a notch or two.This is ridiculous already.
I was told when I went to gas mask training that there was a pound of C4 expolice found by a track worker at 57-7 about three or four weeks ago. So I guess that tight security it not needed at this point.
obert
A POUND of C4! Shit, that could have blown a hole in the station ceiling and into the street above! That is indeed troubling news.
As far as I have heard there's a SUSPICIOUS PACKAGE at the W/A Hotel, nothing more at this point.
wayne
11:23pm
Ch.7 Eyewitness News says that the Suspicious Package found in the Waldorf Astoria hotel was personal effects accidentally left behind by a businessman and they have sounded the All Clear.
This situation was no doubt exacerbated by the fact that Colin Powell was in the hotel during the day and evening.
wayne
See told ya,yet another false alarm.Every time there's a 'suspicious' package,it turns out to be a harmless trivial thing.It's the same scenario all the time.Someone spots a package or whatever unattended then goes to a guard or whoever and says that there's at suspicious package at this location,call 911 and it's time to clear the area only for awhile later to find out it was just a useless piece of junk.
Ok, but we can't just not respond. The one time it is a real bomb, I'd like to see what you say.
I'd just say "Whoops,oh well too bad for them.It ain't my problem.My time is not here yet to save everyone from world destruction."
Wow, you might be the most self-centered person I've ever seen. So basically if a bomb blows up and your view is that we shouldn't respond to all of these false alarms, and you don't get injured by the bomb, good for you? With an attitude like that, you won't get far in society.
By now the entire Middle East shouldn't be on the map!The day after 9/11 we should've sent planes over there and destroy every damn country in the Middle East!Instead Congress or whoever the hell over in Washington wants info,permission to do this and that...GET THE F*** OUTTA HERE!!!!!! Those damn terrorist's didn't get permission from thier country's government to destroy the WTC so why should we wait,and wait,AND WAIT! untill we finally start kicking all thier asses!? They just went on and destroyed a sacred place to this whole country,we should just go on and destroy thier country!They deserve nothing less!
And don't worry,there ain't gonna be any bomb's that were from 'suspcious' pakages blowing up anytime soon.All this is is truly pathetic.We're getting thrown way off our regular routine and we gotta stop being so on edge about everything.This can't go on forever.
We're getting thrown way off our regular routine and we gotta stop being so on edge about everything.This can't go on forever.
My thoughts EXACTLY!!
>>> They just went on and destroyed a sacred place to this whole country, <<<
It is always good to find a devout capitalist. :-)
Tom
See told ya,yet another false alarm.Every time there's a 'suspicious' package,it turns out to be a harmless trivial thing.It's the same scenario all the time.Someone spots a package or whatever unattended then goes to a guard or whoever and says that there's at suspicious package at this location,call 911 and it's time to clear the area only for awhile later to find out it was just a useless piece of junk.
I really have to get into the adult-diaper business. And the NYPD would be among my best customers.
The *REAL* money is in "discrete changing stations" ... NY almost tried rentaportapotties, but it was a miserable failure. Sidewalk (ahem) "kiosks" where you can drop the filled ones, and put on fresh would be a bigger money maker than "American Phone Card Corporation" or "Bill Gates says he'll let you keep a few pennies if you buy thousands of internet terminals and try to install them at JFK" scams.
"DeeperDapperDiaper" could be a true moneymaker - put your shekels on a northbound freight designated for humping at Selkirk yard addressed to the old TMO, be sure to stash them in the rag hopper on the axles and I'll set you right up.
REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS! This post is in compliance with all rules of 1689 of the USPO and is approved for implantation into your infant. If this message got to you in error, you need to open the storm door, remove the chains, step down using the MTA provided "hooplet metal" until you have reached the tracks. Walk to towards the wall blocked by that silly wooden thing. NOW ... there are metal thingies protruding from the car that touch what may appear to be another rail UNDER the wood.
Open your book of praises (whether of BLUE cover, or bearing the sign of the cross) ... lo verily, reach down TO the piece of iron resting on the unnecessary rail. Touch the metal and verily, *FEEL* the power ... OH YEAH BROTHER AND SISTER! Ye shall reach salvation.
Or else, BUY our sidewalk tube.
Ummm, It seems the "sucking of the keg" has started a wee bit early this week. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The suckling of the spout is a WAY OF LIFE upstate. It's not like we have alife (or DSL) any OTHER time ... GEEZ, guy ... when are you going to get your asp UP here? Boy ... we can fix whatever ALES you any way you like, priests are available if the need arises just a few hundred feet off my property ... heh.
Seriously though, Unca Selkirk has a deal under contract with this here company. The PAY sucks, but if I work past 16 hours, company HAS to buy me a beer. Or until the still runs dry. Been 23. 'nuff said. :)
D.D.A.G.T.M.
wayne
class of '95
smith & wilson univ.
(I really have to get into the adult-diaper business. And the NYPD would be among my best customers. )
You really don't understand, do you? The NYPD is just doing its job. A suspicious package gets reported, and they investigate. This does not mean that they are frightened out of their wits. They evacuate the hotel because that's what their orders are in suh a situation, not because they fear for the imminent demise of the people there.
American safety procedures work on the basis that it's better to have 1000 false evacuations than one disaster where people were not evacuated. That is rooted far deeper than the current terrorism scare, and it has saved a lot of lives in conventional fires that were first thought to be nothing serious but turned out to become conflagration.
Individual members of the public may be frightened, and the media and certain govt officials are helping them stay that way, but the police are very professional about all this.
American safety procedures work on the basis that it's better to have 1000 false evacuations than one disaster where people were not evacuated. That is rooted far deeper than the current terrorism scare, and it has saved a lot of lives in conventional fires that were first thought to be nothing serious but turned out to become conflagration.
We actually have a double standard at work. Paranoia is perfectly acceptable when the police are being paranoid, but not when "ordinary" people are involved. Consider the fact that in many jurisdictions homeowners and business owners are only allowed a certain number of false alarms from their burglar alarm systems. Anyone who exceeds that number faces a hefty fine. The police may be allowed 1,000 false evacuations, but Johh Q. Public may only be allowed two or three false burglar alarms.
Now now ... that problem ONLY exists in communities with "TimeWarner Cable Security Services" or "IDT" which ... well ... sell their suckustomers QWAP ... in areas where there's REPUTABLE alarm companies, such doesn't happen. :)
Wanna bet?
Down herabouts almost every county & B'more city have passed laws about excessive alarm reports. Keep sending false reports, get fined.
It ain't just TimeWeenie. It's everywhere.
The best thing is for the media to stop "Breaking News" everytime the cops get a "suspicious package" or "bomb threat". The Unwashed don't need to be told until later.
sheesh
Oh, life is just *SO* much simpler in upstate New York. You can hear the crunching in the snow (or "lawn" in the two weeks of "summer" when the snow goes away) and you just get your gun, shoot their brokearse, and drag them across the threshhold before calling 911 ... nice, neat, clean, simple. My condolences.
Up here, anyone with a suspicious package gets to EAT same or die. "Any unclaimed baggage is MINE" takes care of the rest. Boom. But yeah, if you install TimeWeenie security around here, your mortgage doubles. Only fair, if you're a homeowner upstate, as long as you drag the body past your threshhold, "justifiable homicide" and you do 30 days TOPS for failure to file a flight plan for the hollowpoint. :)
>>> Paranoia is perfectly acceptable when the police are being paranoid, but not when "ordinary" people are involved. Consider the fact that in many jurisdictions homeowners and business owners are only allowed a certain number of false alarms from their burglar alarm systems. Anyone who exceeds that number faces a hefty fine. The police may be allowed 1,000 false evacuations, but Johh Q. Public may only be allowed two or three false burglar alarms. <<<
Your comparison is not correct. Police answering a burglar alarm show up with drawn guns until they are sure there is no one there. They take the necessary precautions for the perceived threat. If a suspicious package is found, they take the necessary precautions for that perceived threat. If the same person causes false alarms with their burglar alarm they get fined. If the same person left suspicious innocent packages more than once in a public place, he too would be fined if he could be identified.
Tom
"There's enough C-4 to blow a hole in the world".
-Keanu Reeves, from the movie "Speed".
In this case, it would make one hole even bigger.
So THAT'S where I dropped my sandwich. :)
>>>Just another sandwich someone forgot...(roll eyes)<<<
No, it had to be a Waldorf Salad. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
MTA's insured MetroCard will require a fee.
"The introduction of an “insurance program” for 30-day MetroCard pass users. (For a small fee, regular pass users would obtain protection in the event of a lost or stolen card – a replacement card would be issued. The plan is to put this in place by September"
(from MTA's website)
I have just been reading all the postings about the MTA increasing fares and still don't think the $2.00 subway fare is that bad. I remember last summer taking a cab from Times Square to my hotel in Queens late at night and getting charged $20.00. I remember me and 3 of my friends took the cab because we were drunk and wanted to get back to the hotel quickly. It turned out that we still sat in solid traffic getting onto one of the bridges into queens and it took just as long as the subway did. Next day we used our 7-day passess to go to/from Manhattan late at night, the trains were just as crowded as the daytime and perfectly safe. Moral of the story is even if we had to pay $2.00 each, we still would have saved $14.00. $2.00 in my opinion is a great deal compared to taking a cab or just about anything else in Manhattan. I love NYC, but it is very expensive in most areas compared to Chicago.
However, my question reguards the Metro-North Rail-Road and LIRR trains. First of all, how do they determine their fares?? I couldn't figuere it out reading the different timetables. It appears that the same distance on different line was different prices, maybe I'm wrong though. Here in Chicago Metra charges the same fares for the same distances traveled on all its lines. Every 5 miles the fare goes up by .40 cents except from zones A to B and B to C because zone B has some special arrangement to charge a lower fare. I think because the Metra Electric line South Chicago branch lies within Zone B & C and they only charge you for zone B and discount the zone B fare. B is discounted on all lines though, not just that line, but I believe that's why.
Also, how come LIRR and Metro-North one-way peak and off-peak fares are so expensive??? The subway is a great deal, but the only thing that saves MNRR & LIRR riders is weekly and monthly passes. I couldn't believe that the one-way fare from Darien Connecticut to Grand Central 2 years ago was $10.00 peak. The same fare on Metra is roughly $5.00. Aurora to Chicago is about the same distance as Darien to GCT and only costs $4.90.
I will be back in NYC this August on a 6-day vacation with my friends. Thank god the 7-day pass will only cost $21 and that LIRR has weekly passes. (WE are staying in Hempstead, Long Island)
That 25% increase for the LIRR & MNRR still really sucks though. The city-zone .50 fare sounds great though, I hope they implement that ASAP. We could use that here in Chicago too! Problem here is that CTA goes outside of Chicago into Metra territory. It would be more confusing to determine here. A cheaper fare with the city limits or CTA limits. Anotherwords make the boundary for the cheaper Metra fares roughly from 95th St. to Howard St. or 95th St. to Linden??
BJ
There used to be more fare zones on the LIRR, but many were condensed (zones 5, 6 and 7 became Zone 7, for example) to make fare collection easier. This created some odd situations like Rockville Centre to Jamaica having the same fare as Massapequa Park to Jamaica, even though one is a 14 minute ride and the other a 36 minute ride. To further confuse things, distance-based fares were abandoned on the West Hempstead and Far Rockaway branches because of their infrequent service and proximity to other stations. If all or parts of those lines were in Zone 7 as their distance would suggest, commuters would drive to the nearby Valley Stream and Lynbrook stations for more frequent and cheaper service.
For your trip this summer, be aware that the LIRR weekly ticket is not a 7-day pass. Rather it is valid for a specific Saturday-to-Friday week. So if you're coming in on a Wednesday and leaving on a Tuesday you'll be better off buying individual tickets (or buy a 10-trip off peak, which is 10 rides for the price of 9).
CG
take LI Bus instead, it is cheaper, plus you can use metrocard(unlimiteds included), they could use the extra ridership
Oh please, we have enough ppl packing the buses at Great Neck to Flushing crush load all day!
Of course, if they increase service, then Im all for it.
Hang out at Great Neck sometime (esp in the afternoon) and see the buses frequently leaving people at the stop because there is no room.
Also in peak direction ridership is up, lately I'm lucky to get a seat on the 7:30am bus to Flushing. And that is from the beginning of the route!
N20/21 service needs to be doubled in the AM and PM rush hour, as well as Sundays.
my advice:
get a monthly its about $2 a ride that way from merrick (zone 7) to FBA(zone 1)
the weekly is pretty good though
the zones are based partly on freqency of service ie babylon vs far rockaway and distance (people from rockville center dont goto lynbrook (long beach line) because of infreqeuncy of service compared to rockville ctr (Babylon Line)although it is cheaper
Hi everyone. I need to go through North Philadelphia tomorrow and I was wondering which of the following places would be safe/unsafe to transfer from a train to a bus. I'm not that familiar with the area.
1. Regional Rail Wayne Junction Station
2. Broad & Erie
3. Olney
4. The 23 bus from Center City
This is in order of my preference disregarding safety.
That area is a rough part of town. As long as you wouldnt leave Wayne Junction station, you would probably be ok, because it gets decent traffic. The neighborhood surrounding it is rough, and the area around North Philadelphia is just plain rotten. Broad and Erie is sort of rough. As long as you stay on Broad Street, you would be reasonably safe, since it is so heavily trafficked. If you leave the station, don't go walking around through the side streets. Olney is hit and miss...some areas are nice, some are not so nice. The 23 bus is a long ride from beginning to end, but its an interesting one. Goes from South Philly to Chestnut Hill. The route goes through some horrible neighborhoods between Center City and Germantown however. As long as you are on the bus, chances are you will be OK.
Not many people use North Philadelphia for a destination, and many trains skip the station due to low ridership. At one time it was a major travel destination, and you could connect to Amtrak, the Pennsy lines, the Reading lines, and the Broad Street Subway via an underground concourse that has long been sealed off. They recently renovated North Philadelphia's Amtrak station, but it receives low ridership, and the entire area is in pretty bad decline.
If you are transfering between trains and bus, I would stay on the train down to 30th Street, and take the trolleys, the el, or one of the center city bus routes. It's a safer option. Also, the areas described above might not be horribly dangerous during the day, just watch yourself.
I agree with Chris's summary of the situation. Where are you trying to go, and from where? That might help us give you better advice.
Mark
"That area is a rough part of town. As long as you wouldnt leave Wayne Junction station, you would probably be ok, because it gets decent traffic. The neighborhood surrounding it is rough, and the area around North Philadelphia is just plain rotten. Broad and Erie is sort of rough."
The area between Broad and Erie and Front/Erie (St. Christophers' Hospital )is OK for daytime traveling. The 56 bus runs every 15-20 minutes and will take you across Erie Ave to various destinations. Justr don't flash a lot of money around.
Go west of Broad on Erie, however, and it gets pretty nasty.
You are right, the area towards St. Christopher's isnt quite as bad.
I would stay on the R7 SEPTA and take it to Downtown Philly (30th st, Market Square, anywhere in Center City.)
North Philly is not much to look at, outside the Pathmark next to the Amtrak/R7 station. Been there, done that. But do be careful, try NOT to stray a few blocks north of Market St, especially after dusk. You are better off riding the Broad St or Market/Frankford lines.
For some adventure, try the PATCO out towards New Jersey.
"North Philly is not much to look at, outside the Pathmark next to the Amtrak/R7 station. Been there, done that."
There's quite a bit more to North Philly than that.
"But do be careful, try NOT to stray a few blocks north of Market St, especially after dusk."
That's silly advice, reserved only for people with no social skills, or for people who are paranoid (they overlap).
The R7 doesn't stop at North Philadelphia, it stops at North Broad, about a block away. The R8 stops at North Philadelphia.
The only seedy areas of downtown are north of Market around Broad...up around Broad and Race and further north it gets a little run-down and empty...not much besides Hahnemann Hospital and a few parking lots. Market around 22nd Street isn't much to look at either. I'd hardly call these neighborhoods dangerous, even at night. As long as you are south of the Vine Street Expressway, you should be in the clear.
As far as subway lines, I prefer the Market-Frankford line. It gets much better service than the Broad Street Line, the stations are in better shape, and it gets more ridership. Its also very convenient for crossing Center City. You can ride from 2nd to 30th much faster on the MFL than in a car, no matter what the traffic is.
"The R7 doesn't stop at North Philadelphia, it stops at North Broad, about a block away"
Whoops...my bad. The R7 DOES stop at North Philadelphia on its Trenton Leg. It stops at North Broad on its Chestnut Hill leg. Damn, I've been away from Philly for a little too long.
I knew I was right about riding from NYC to Philly via. train and a $32 combined R/T ticket. Looking foward to revisit SEPTA sometime in the Summer. And yes, it WAS North Philadelphia that was the stop before the Central Philadelphia stops. I haven't been on the Chestnut Hill leg though. I love SEPTA, very fast and on-time, but the stops are too short of one another.
I will try to ride the R2 as far south as Wilmington DE this year, but after looking at the timetable, service is VERY limited to Wilmington.
Quick question: What is the best route to railfan, that has the fastest speed with stops not as close together as the R7 line?
If speed is what you want, the Route 100 Norristown Hi Speedline takes the cake. Service operates on about 20 minute headways, and the entire route is flag stops except for the terminals. Stations are pretty close together, but are infrequently patronized, so most stations are passed by. The line probably averages 50-60 mph by my guess...it is very fast.
The R2 to Wilmington isn't worth the cost and the inconvenience. Wilmington sucks...there's nothing to see once you get there, so you will be waiting around in the station for your return train.
As far as Chestnut Hill trains go, I prefer the R8. The R8 is slightly more heavily patronized than the R7, and operates on 30 minute headways, compared to the 1 hour headways of the R7. The R8 Chestnut Hill line has the best headways in the system. The line also goes through a much nicer area, very affluent. The line had freight service on it at night near the North Philadelphia end, but I think Budd was the last customer, and they are shutting down their plant on Hunting Park Av. The R8 ends at Chestnut Hill West, right on Germantown Avenue, which is an upscale, suburban-like shopping district.
That is a damm shame that Budd is closing down their PA plant, they will be known IMO as the manufactuer of the best stainless steel subway cars ever to ride the NYC rails in history. PERIOD!!!
Budd's been out of the car business for quite a while now. They make all kinds of stuff out of metal. I think their last plant in Philadelphia is the one on Hunting Park Av which is closing very soon, if it hasn't already. Budd even built the early subway cars for Philadelphia, right up to the M3 "Almond Joys" that ran on the El until a few years ago.
One more factory packing up and moving somewhere else. It's a damn shame for Philadelphia. Hopefully Governor Rendell can maintain some of his legacy of turning around Philadelphia. Philly was rapidly on the way to becoming "Detroit without the automobiles" until he was elected mayor, things turned around for a decade, and now it looks like development has become pretty stagnant again.
Budd is one of the world's largest makers of parts for automobiles. The Hunting Park Av plant is shutting down. The company wants to move closer to the Michigan auto assembly plants which are its biggest customers.
"The R2 to Wilmington isn't worth the cost and the inconvenience. Wilmington sucks...there's nothing to see once you get there, so you will be waiting around in the station for your return train. "
If you're impatient and don't mind paying more, there's always Amtrak...
"I'd hardly call these neighborhoods dangerous, even at night. As long as you are south of the Vine Street Expressway, you should be in the clear. "
That's silly. You can go well north of that and still be in the clear - it depends where you are, and if you are able to deal with people who may not look the way you do.
One thing you'll miss if you make the mistake of being paranoid is Spring Garden Street - home to Phila. Community College, among other things.
When I said that, I wasn't referring to the Vine Street Expressway as a total wall, just a basic guide for an out-of-towner. There are some neighborhoods as you get towards the Art Museum and Eastern State Penitentiary that would be a little dicey at 2 am. Also, some of the Northern Liberties are still a little iffy, but that neighborhood is being rapidly cleaned up. I should've rephrased, and said that Girard Street would be a better barrier than Vine St Expwy.
I agree that Girard is a better measure.
Prudence is always good, and the rules are always different for women walking alone.
Blah. Let the Philadelphian Traveler (R6 to all of you) dice it up.
Safer Transfer Points - North Phiadelphia:
Olney Terminal is your best bet, as the terminal has an actual building to stand in, and you've got the underground space as it is a BSL stop. Broad & Erie isn't as safe; my girlfriend once lived around 9th & Erie, and she always insisted on seeing me safely into the subway or onto the NiteOwl bus before returning home (she has a knife of mine in case of prowlers and assailants). However, as stated, Erie is generally safer east of Broad Street than west. Not much prettier though. Avoid Wayne Junction unless remaining in the station. Not that dangerous, but the people can become a pest, and if prevented from pestering, things may get ugly. You'll also want to avoid North Philadelphia station area. Train service through North Broad is infrequent, and the same goes for train service through North Philadelphia. Subway service is frequent, but the station is less than pleasing and often boasts a fresh aroma of human excrement.
Seedy/Dangerous areas:
Generally, traveling up one of the numbered streets (and Front Street in some cases) leads to some shady areas. Typically, the main streets aren't so bad, specifically the wide ones. Arch, Race, Vine, Spring Garden, west Fairmount Ave. (west of Broad) Girard, Cecil B. Moore, Diamond, Lehigh, Allegheny, Erie, Hunting Park, Roosevelt Blvd., Wyoming Avenue (west of 5th Street), Olney Avenue. Those are safe enough. Avoid streets in-between, as they aren't as used or populated, and thus aren't as safe.
Rail Service:
The R7 Trenton and R8 Chestnut Hill West stop at North Philadelphia (along with a few Amtrak/Acela trains). However, the R8 has its own tracks and platform there, as it branches away from Amtrak's property just west of the station. Most R7 trains stop at North Philadelphia, but only half of the R8 trains, and neither service is that frequent (R7 trains are every hour, R8 are every half hour weekdays and hourly weekends). The R5 Lansdale/Doylestown and R6 Norristown stop at North Broad. However, for both trains, service is hourly (R5 Lansdale trains don't stop there, but Doylestown trains do. However, the Doylestown service is hourly, while there's a train every 30 minutes to Lansdale on weekdays). The station is also totally open to the elements, and you'll be grumbling after seeing all the other trains breeze by.
Regional Railfan:
Other than the R7 Trenton... The R5 (both branches, though you'll need a Thorndale train to appreciate the west end), the R6 Norristown (scenic ride alongside the river), an the R3 West Trenton have a nice mix of speed and scenery. The Main Line is part of the R5 Malvern/Thorndale line's scenery, and the R3 West Trenton cuts through nice looking parts of upper Montgomery County.
Broad & Erie isn't as safe; my girlfriend once lived around 9th & Erie, and she always insisted on seeing me safely into the subway or onto the NiteOwl bus before returning home (she has a knife of mine in case of prowlers and assailants).
Now that's quite a twist on usual gender roles!
By the way, when women try to use weapons such as knives in self-defense, quite often they get forcibly disarmed and have the weapons turned against them.
A good point (pun not intended).
In general, if you decide to use a deadly weapon, you should make sure:
1) You are properly prepared and trained in its use
2) It is a legal weapon (using an unlicensed handgun, a switchblade or double-edged weapon on somebody will win you a free trip to jail)
3) You are in mortal danger (somebody "dissing" you or insulting you is not sufficient reason to pull out your 9mm Glock, even if you have a valid permit to carry).
You'll also want to avoid North Philadelphia station area.
I've walked between the Broad Street Subway North Philly station and the Amtrak/SEPTA North Philly station several times recently (in daylight) and felt no sense of danger.
A man who knows and respects his environs. I like that.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I ended up going to Olney and changing there, which was absolutely fine. It was not a railfan trip, I had to get to the Germantown area, to a place about halfway between the R7 and R8, along Germantown Ave, and was wondering which of those places was safest to get a bus.
"I had to get to the Germantown area, to a place about halfway between the R7 and R8, along Germantown Ave, and was wondering which of those places was safest to get a bus."
I owned a house near that stretch ofGermantown Av. It is low-key and safe to catch the #23 there. You really have little to worry about. I walked that part of Germantown Av myself.
BTW, there is a lot of police traffic through that part of Germantown Av.
Your forgetting that you can also transfer from the Regional Rail to the Sub at Fern Rock.
I think the R1, R2, R3, R5 stop there.
Unless of course your coming from NY, then this don't help.
To be honest, there isn't much to do down here, yeah riding the different trains, trolleys, and busses, but for the most part Phila
is pretty dull! How may times can you see the Liberty Bell?
I work there I know, as for the trains being on time, and clean, you haven't experienced the Regional Rails like I have the last 7 years!
This afternoon, The 4:47 R5 Express from Suburban to Wayne local to Thorndale, well we couldnt get on, seems like they had no way to open the doors!
Seems like its always something, and coming from NYC, I can tell you these little things wouldn't fly in NY!
well just imagine the lines at the end/beginning of the month
The 30 day unlimited IS the monthly metrocard.
There is no "monthly" card with the exception of Premium Transit Check with payroll deduction where the card automaticly renews each month you stay on payroll deduction for one year.
TA never said monthly or weekly only 7 and 30 day cards.
Because passes fixed to the calendar month are flawed. What if my schedule doesn't fit a calendar month? 30-day passes are the way to go.
The question is why doesn't your LIRR have passes with rolling months? They used to have them until the policy was changed under Austin Corbin.
The 30-day pass gives you more control over how you use your fair card. For example, you start using it when you want to; you don't have to follow a calendar. The monthly card is fine for smaller cities like Chicago, but New Yorkers are simply more "on the go" in a city (and transit system) that never sleeps. -Nick
30 day cards make more sense form an operational point of view for just the reason you describe. It spreads out the purchace period for cards from not just the begining of the week or month to the entire week or month.
>>> It spreads out the purchace period for cards from not just the begining of the week or month to the entire week or month. <<<
There is no technical reason why a monthly card could not be programmed to expire one month after it was first used, i.e. first used on March 10th, expires at midnight on April 9th, which would overcome the problem of all being purchased at one time, but then there would be complaints form those paying the same price for cards good only 28 days activated in February, compared to cards good for 31 days activated in March.
Tom
Strangely, in Baltimore the monthly passes are based on the calendar month. The passes are both a flash pass and have a magnetic stripe for the subway faregates.
The price never varies and nobody gripes. The passes are for unlimited trips and the cost evens out over a year.
>>> in Baltimore the monthly passes are based on the calendar month. The passes are both a flash pass and have a magnetic stripe for the subway faregates. <<<
Here in Los Angeles the passes are also calendar based monthly/semi-monthly and weekly passes. That is the only practical way to set up a flash pass since it must be recognized quickly without having an operator looking for a specific date. This is done by issuing different color cards for each month, or different color stamps pasted on a picture ID card for discount passes. If all buses and turnstiles have mag readers, it is possible to get more creative.
Tom
Here in Houston all busses have ticket processing units (TPUs) that read/write magnetic cards.
This allows a variety of time based cards (7 day, 30 day, 365 day) for five different fare zones that are activated upon first use. When used the first time, the expiration date is printed and magnetically encoded on the card.
We also have discounted stored value cards available in multiple denominations ($15 for $18.75 fare, $25/$31.40, $50/$64, $75/$97.50, $100/$132, $125/$167.50, $150/$204.50)
Upon each use the TPU display shows you how much value is left on the card. Once the card gets below $25, it prints the amount left every $5, and puts a mark for every $1.
Transfers are also generated by the TPU, and are good for exactly 2 hours on any route other than the one boarded.
Day passes can be purchased on the bus, cost 2x the base fare and are good for exactly 24 hours - quite a bargain compared to any other transit system I've been on.
I know the light rail system going into service next year will have random proof-of-purchase checks with self-service fare purchase systems on the platforms, but I don’t know how it will integrate with the existing fare system.
Looking at the Metro web site (www.ridemetro.org) I see tokens mentioned, but I’ve never seen one used in the two year I’ve lived here.
I remember in the past, that prior to a fare increase and with the token staying the same, people would rush out and buy a bunch to save on the fare increase.
With this current increase, what happens to the unlimited Metrocards that were purchased prior to the fare increase? I have several months of Transitchek Metrocards in reserve due to vacations and what not, so what will be of use of these $63 Metrocards? Will I still be able to use them, or do I have to bring it to a booth and given them $7 to upgrade it to a new monthly?
Good Question. Try call the Metrocard comster hotline number on the card. I am not tring to be a smart ass about this, but I don't know if anyone hear know the answer to your question as of now since it is so new. People at the hotline should know more then us, then again this is the TA we are talking about. The worker are alway the last to know, if we find out at all.
Robert
The following is a letter from the July 7, 1997 New York Times:
To the Editor:
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority's new plan to provide free transfers between the subway and bus systems with a strict two-hour time limit is no favor to New Yorkers (news article, June 30).
In a city with so many neurotic and obsessive-compulsive residents, adding this deadline will only increase the level of craziness. It won't be long before we see people pushing to the front of checkout lines and trampling others exiting movie theaters, all in the cause of beating the expiration of the free transfer.
Not wishing to increase the level of stress in my own life, I'll continue to use tokens and give up my right to the free transfer.
LAWRENCE M. REICH
New York, July 3, 1997
This ideas of this Reich are as dead as those of the Third Reich.
I'm amazed that a New York Times reader would actually ride public transportation. You would think his limo would be waiting downstairs! ;)
He's a true moron, but I wouldn't compare his stupidity to the evilness of the Third Reich. This guy doesn't understand that the transfer is optional, and he's not required to use it.
For that matter, paying only the fare required is optional.
If you wanted to deposit $2.50 in change into a NYC bus farebox just because you felt like it, or because you wanted to show MTA your appreciation, no one will stop you.
The bus driver might think you're off your rocker, though...
or how about dipping your unlimited card in the box every 18 minutes for no reason
I could see somebody doing that in an attempt to persuade MTA that lots more people use that station than the agency thinks. Of course, when MTA sends out their surveyors, they will notice a discrepancy...
Now, if you wanted to swipe your $15 MetroCard until it runs out of money for no reason...
I was mainly referring to buses, but yes, swipe the card in each of the turnstiles as well
Does Mr.Reich feel this way today or his he still anal ?
The free transfer part of Metrocard is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Or maybe Mr.Reich still buys unsliced bread !
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to walk around with tokens even after MetroCard was introduced just because I have a propensity to lose cards and pieces of paper, or get them damaged, but rarely lost change - and a token is pretty indestructible. Tokens have also been an accepted form of currency in New York - accepted by stores, restaurants and sidewalk vendors, good for entry at the Transit Museum, and good for offering waiters and maids tips.
I'll miss it. But both Mr. Reich and I will get over it.
Offering a waiter a token as a tip? Wow, people are really cheap.
Heh. Thanks for coming out and saying what I didn't have the STONES to ... reminds me of cigar ashes in the palm as a tip. But hey, could be worse, could have been a 100 shares in WorldCon. :)
Hey, maybe he gave more than one token for the tip? Did ya think of that? Two tokens is $3.00
SORRY ... but when *I* come to the city, the doorman gets a $10 every runthrough for a cab ride, and anyone else in my face who DID something gets a 10 OR a 20 ... it's just HOW it's done. Take care fo the people (and the beertender) who take care of you, and it's HAPPY times all around. For us, coming to the city means riding the trains (ONLY if there's a TA employee to have FUN with for the ride during "fallow time") or if I need to get somewhere. If there's nobody to meet up with and shoot the sheet with while falling back, then the subways AIN'T no fun for this former motorman ... I get off on the PEOPLE and hanging out for the brief times it doesn't interfere with "official duties" or just getting there. When I'm in "tourista" mode though, subway? WHAT subway? (in other words, funpass? we don't NEED no steeking funpass, we gots horse carriages and taxis, WHAT subway?) But I *do* enjoy having a TA employee handy to laugh and shoot da sheet with IF available ...
But *A* token is an INSULT to "servants" and offering one as a tip instead of REAL money is a BIGGER insult. Maybe it's just me though. When I come to da city, I'm just into having fun and spreading the joy ... when I *have* joy. :)
"Just HOW it's done"
Nice, now this is a class warfare discussion.
$10 to hail a cab is excessive. If it makes you happy to be ostentatious with your money, that's your right. But to make it sound like anyone who tips $5 or less for that same service is somehow a lesser person is just plain ... snobbish.
But I'd agree that cash is nearly always better than tokens unless you have good reason to believe they're prefer tokens.
Sorry if it SEEMS that way, but I grew UP in New York. I've done "indentured servitude" ... MAYBE I'm just GRATEFUL that, when I visit the city in its rareness, that I *share* some of the money I've set aside. I'm over 50 now, and I really appreciate someone lighting up and being happy I slipped them one. Maybe some conversation on the realities of life, whatever. But when I *travel* (it's DAMNED rare) I like to be among folks that are happy to see me, even if I have to bribe them. :)
But yeah, I *still* think that slipping anyone a token as a "tip" is an insult ... guess it was my upbringing. But ask anyone we visited on the rails that Christmas if we didn't spread some joy to those tuck having to work ... sorry, to *ME*, the joy of others *IS* the gift, and it's a gift for ME ... what can I say?
IF you can afford to spread some joy around. Knock yourself out. As far as giving someone a token as a tip that is an insult. Not for the dollar value, but as to the thought.
If that person would hold onto that token, that nominal $1.50 jesture may be worth fart more to a collector down the road.
I always try to spread a bit of chear during the holiday. I have been known to give some money or a gift card to those who need.
My buddy who is a rather successful stock advisor always make it a point to give $5 or $10 to every mexican bus boy, bar maid, ash tray cleaner when we go out to bars and resturants. As a Mexican american who has been able to climb the ladder of sucess, he see's it as his duty to spread some chear to his fellow countryman who are working hard to feed one's family.
It is not a matter of snobbyness as it is how much one can afford. Many people who have climbed that latter and are doing well, give back in more ways then people somehow give them credit for
Amen to that.
I hope he would also take the time to write a letter of recommendation for a college application, too...
"My buddy who is a rather successful stock advisor always make it a point to give $5 or $10 to every mexican bus boy, bar maid, ash tray cleaner when we go out to bars and resturants."
Hmmmph. So, let's say if I, a native American of Italian, Sicilian, Irish and German ancestry were to bus his table, or clean his ash tray....he would what? Stiff me? He would look at me and think "Well, I don't have to tip HIM! He better just serve me and serve me well!"?? Now isn't THAT a pleasant thought. Sounds like he don't know that's really biased thinking. Guess he doesn't understand what The United States of America is all about yet. A worker is a worker is a worker. We ALL deserve respect if we do the job well. Really, it's prejudiced thinking to only tip someone if they're of a specific nationality.
He would tip you in the apropiate fashion.
My freind gives tips to his mexican countryman whether or not they are actually serving him or not
Believe me he is gernerous with all who serves him. He like the attention. He even buys rounds for people he doesn't even know at the bar. He like to see people happy.
For the ultimate service, offer the ultimate tips:
"Doors are hard."
"Buy low and sell high."
"Plant corn."
:0)
Wow, that's pretty generous, I was brought up to believe a nickel to a snobbish waiter/ess was an insult.
No, like I said, I grew up in da chitty ... you either REWARD service with a smile, *OR* you write on the napkin, "I looked for you throughout my meal. Now *YOU* look for the tip." ... sorry, but I had an acytually shabby life. I've learned to APPRECIATE people who are kind, or who are at least TRYING to FEIGN it. To ME, a generous tip is a way of saying "remember this face, treat it nicely and I'll do it again." ... it WORKS. And if not, I have printed business cars with "STUFF YOU" on them which I hand out after being shafted.
*I* grew up in da Bronx. I lived by a simple rule - "you have THREE PUNCHES ... you'd better DO me" ... and by this rule of mine, I *never* swung. I just took the hits. But if you DIDN'T take me out with your THIRD punch, then the rest was mine. Needless to say, I was the last one standing, but I always felt guilty about nearly killing someone. THUS the "rule" ...
For "evil" there is "good" and if we're going to "punish evil" then we'd *BEST* compensate "good" ... that's where I'm at, and everyone's presumed innocent until they're in my face. :)
"But *A* token is an INSULT to "servants" and offering one as a tip instead of REAL money is a BIGGER insult. Maybe it's just me though. When I come to da city, I'm just into having fun and spreading the joy ... when I *have* joy. :)"
Pure poopycock, sir. Noonsense, I say. Moo! splat! Tokens make grand tips, and you can give more than one. But I ALWAYS ask whether the recipient would like a token.
However, you hit it right on the nose about generosity. Pay service people generously, and they will look after you like royalty. You can never go wrong with that.
In addition, I get to know them by name. If they do a splendid job, I not only tip them well, but I call over to management and I praise them to the higher-ups and tell the bosses what great employees they have there, and how I will be coming back because of it.
Pure poopycock, sir. Noonsense, I say. Moo! splat! Tokens make grand tips, and you can give more than one. But I ALWAYS ask whether the recipient would like a token.
Tokens aren't an insult because of the value, that's fine, but I resent someone receiving my services to have the NERVE to tell me how I should spend the money they give me. That's what a token tip is.
Yes, that I agree with. Always ask first.
>>> Hey, maybe he gave more than one token for the tip? <<<
And one token is not bad if you are buying a hot dog from a pushcart. :-)
Tom
Not really cheap. Perhaps the service-worker that is offered a token for a tip appreciates it. They ARE worth $1.50, right? AND -- that might save them a wait in line to buy a token or Metrocard on their way home. Sometimes just THAT alone is worth something.
Why do you say that?
How much would you live the guy who checks your coat, or the maid who turns your bed? $1 a day is usually the right fare - so a token offers a premium. Especially if they tell me they could use tokens.
Eat breakfast for $10; one token is exactly a 15% tip. Eat breakfast for $7.50, and you're being generous by leaving a token.
Eat breakfast for $10; one token is exactly a 15% tip. Eat breakfast for $7.50, and you're being generous by leaving a token.
Your definition and mine of "generous" aren't on the same wavelength, obviously. Regardless of the propriety of using a token, in this day and age I don't consider a 20% tip to be overly generous for good service in an economically-priced restaurant. I eat breakfast at a diner on a fairly regular basis with two or three other guys. When I'm the one collecting for the check I normally figure at least a 20% tip; when one of the other members of the group collects, he can't understand why I'm handing him $11 when my portion of the bill comes to just under $9. But the waitresses in that establishment are good, hard workers, they see that the two coffee cups in use are always full, and they're always quick with an extra napkin or whatever else we might need.
Now, if we were in Le Snooty Overpriced Gourmet Grille I'd probably be leaving a 10% tip since (a) the service wouldn't be as good and (b) 10% of that bill would still be more than 20% of the bill at the diner. Although actually, I'd probably look at the prices on the menu and simply be leaving. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Your definition and mine of "generous" aren't on the same wavelength, obviously. Regardless of the propriety of using a token, in this day and age I don't consider a 20% tip to be overly generous for good service in an economically-priced restaurant."
Au contrare, I actually think the same way you do - for myself. When I get really good service my tips can approach 25% at times, and I ask if the waiter or waitress would like a token included. (and I tell management how pleased I was with the service).
However, this does not mean that the wait staff should come to routinely expect tips exceeding 15%. That figure is still standard in the industry. (For large parties, 18% is the norm). If they receive more than 15% at my table, it will be because they earned it.
That is what I meant.
Those are serious tips... 10-15% is the norm here, usually tending towards the 10% end.
Never underestimate the stupidity of the average New Yorker.
In defense, if the token were a tip for breakfast (typically around five to seven bucks) that would make this quite generous...
So, how is Mr. Reich able to "use" his free transfer if his film is "The Lord of The Rings", or a "Godfather" type epic? He is truly a first-class moron. Mr. Reich, you should start using the Single Ride cards from a MVM near you. Only one catch, the clock starts ticking once you buy the card, so hop on a bus, see your damm movie and take another bus from a different route back home, even if you have to walk a few miles out of your way.
Or stop whining, and buy an Unlimited Ride Metrocard.
While I see the insults flying, I haven't seen anyone realize that Mr. reich may have been a bus user and only that. Before the MetroCard transfer, you pay your fare, ask for a transfer, and IIRC the transfer was good until 3am or 6am the following day. If you use buses primarily (like I did until recently), the 2 hour transfer definitely puts a strain on running errands.
( Before the MetroCard transfer, you pay your fare, ask for a transfer, and IIRC the transfer was good until 3am or 6am the following day. )
No, the bus driver was supposed to rip them off at a given point to indicate the time. So they were supposedly good for roughly a few hours. Some drivers didn't try very hard to indicate the proper time, though.
D'oh! I stand corrected. I guess from all the riding I did without a bus driver ever doing this, I assumed that it was good for all that time.
Officially, the old bus transfer was good for one hour. In practice, B/O's usually gave a few hours, or sometimes the entire transfer (valid until 6am the following morning).
OTOH, the old transfer was only valid on designated routes at designated transfer points (although I never had a transfer turned down at an actual transfer point that wasn't listed). The MetroCard transfer, paper or plastic, is more flexible.
Token Booth Closings
The following part-time token booths will be replaced with automated turnstiles and ticket-dispensing machines. Listed are each station location, followed by the booth number and the subway line(s) served by that station.
BRONX
Pelham Parkway [R327] (2)
Fordham Road [N218] (D)
East Tremont Avenue [R323A] (2)
Bedford Park Boulevard [N223] (D)
167th Street [N206] (D)
149th Street [R260] (4)
BROOKLYN
15th Street/Prospect Pk [N541] (F)
18th Avenue [N550] (F)
22nd Av–Bay Pkwy [D11] (N)
59th Street [C22] (R)
86th Stret [C26] (R)
95th Street [C28] (R)
Avenue N [N554] (F)
Bedford-Nostrand Avenues [N418] (G)
Bergen Street [N533] (F)
Church Avenue [N545] (F)
Ditmas Avenue [N547] (F)
Flatbush Avenue [R646] (2)
Fort Hamilton Parkway [D4] (N)
Fort Hamilton Parkway [N544] (F)
Greenpoint Avenue [N403] (G)
Kings Highway [N558] (F)
Kings Highway [B23] (Q)
Lawrence Street [C4] (R)
Myrtle-Willoughby Avenues [N416] (G)
New Utrecht Avenue [D6] (N)
Ocean Parkway [B34] (Q)
Rockaway Avenue [N123B] (C)
West 8th Street [G15] (Q)
MANHATTAN
5th Avenue [A7] (R)
23rd Street [R226A] (6)
23rd Street [N75] (C)
28th Street [R230] (6)
33rd Street [R232A] (6)
34th Stret [N67A] (A)
135th Street [N22] (C)
168th Street [N12] (A)
175th Street [N11] (A)
207th Street [N1] (A)
Broad Street [A85] (J)
B’way-Lafayette Street [N519A] (F)
Cortlandt Street [A53] (R)
Fulton Street [A82] (J)
Fulton Street [R208] (R)
Houston Street [R121 & R122] (1)
Rector Street [R102] (1)
Spring Street [N87] (C)
Wall Street [203A & 204A] (4)
QUEENS
33rd Street [R517] (7)
46th Street [R520] (7)
63rd Drive [N330C] (V)(R)
67th Avenue [N332] (V)(R)
80th Street-Hudson [N130] (A)
111t Street [N138] (A)
Parsons Boulevard [N339] (F)
Rockaway Boulevard [N135] (A)
Sutphin Boulevard [N338] (F)
Vernon Blvd.–Jackson Av. [R506] (7)
Woodhaven Blvd [J32] (J)
Woodhaven Blvd [N329A] (V)(R)
Courtesy NY1
Peace,
ANDEE
What if you purchased a $4.00 funpass before the fare increase and try to use it after the increase ? Will the turnstile block your access and read out "insufficent funds" ?
This question also applies to the weekly and monthly cards too.
Bill "Newkirk"
They seem to be keeping this a deep dark secret, so far. My guess is they wont tell us until the day before. But, my guess is that they'll just let people use the old unlimiteds with no penalty, so stock up!
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Seems reasonable, i.e. they are time vs. value based, however if THEY see too many being bought they'll put a block in the system to prevent their use. Opposite side of the coin would be the staff time required to process all those refunds ... oh they hate to do that !
That's my guess as well. Unlike tokens, which have no stated expiration date, a MetroCard has an explicit expiration date printed on the back. I take that to mean that it's valid until that date.
Story about the citys smallest line
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, that's quite a article. I can see that with the change in management that they are more friendly toward the press. Am wondering if they are more railfan friendly too ?
Thanks for the link.
>>>Wow, that's quite a article.<<<
Yeah, and the funny thing is, I found it by accident.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, and the funny thing is, I found it by accident.
Funnier still, you could have found it here.
Oops, sorry must've slipped by me.
Peace,
ANDEE
C'mon, Bob...that would take some work....*G*
I read the article too. It resemble the South Brooklyn RR in a few ways.
#3 West End Jeff
A line which, one hopes will become more important in the years to come.
Was at Fresh Pond yesterday w/PBD Jr....we noticed a fleet of R-142s w/o numberboards. It was very odd to see new sets on flats from Plattsburgh with no identifying markings on them. Quite odd.
Any ideas on this would be greatly appreciated.
BTW, the propane tank-car derailment was still being tended to when we were there. The car is back on the tracks. However, the derailment will hold up R-142 deliveries into Linden since the propane car derailed on the subway car offloading track.
"organ donors" ... GEEZ ... do I have to tell you EVERYTHING about "in warrantee repair" and how it's handled? Have you NEVER swapped a "builder plate?" What a DEPRIVED childhood! :)
Ha! Nah, all ya gotta do is check Ebay for R-142 builder's plates :)
Dang! You mean someone's COMPETING with my danged stamping plant?!?!? That SETTLES it, I'm going to build bogus Chryslers then. :)
Don't you mean Kreislers....
Oww ... ow! ow! ow! Even Randy KENNEDY wouldn't have spelled it THAT WAY ... Geez. After all, I'm STILL hoping to open the hospitality suite up here for the boy, and anyone ELSE who can stand living with us hicks for a weekend. :)
So what's YOUR excuse? C'mon up, y'all ... freeze yer buns (still got 20 inches of snow out there) and feast on BAMBI! Damned Franklin Avenue Shuttle wimps. Whaddo I have to do to get ya psyched? Take you up to CROSSGATES and make you wear an UNPATRIOTIC T-shirt in da mall? Heh. That's *MY* hood that did that, and all that flowed since. Word. :)
I almost thought the guy who got arrested for wearing a T-shirt was YOU or you cab blessing partner! LOL!!
Thought it might have been a shirt with someone flipping the bird to Bruno or Paturkey...:)
Nah, we already know what our rights are in that place. But *this* time they decided to arrest a LAWYER. Whoops. :)
LOL!!!!!!!!HAD TO BE THERE FOR THE FULL EFFECT....My companion was..saw the WHOLE thing... When is it a crime to wear a PEACE ON EARTH TEE SHIT? The guard should not have manhandle those people in any respect...long story man....
Ask any cop in the woodpile, "thought crimes" are on the increase. :)
This article makes the claim that there is a vast hidden tunnel network underneath Tokyo.
Essentially:
--old maps don't jibe with new ones
--sealed off basement levels of buildings
--tunnels veering off from main lines that aren't acknowledged on maps
--vast underground parking garages where there were no buildings
Who knows?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Awesome! I want to read more about this!
---Brian
Fascinating.
I have always speculated that there are secret nuke-proof tunnels associated wtih the DC Metro, connecting the White House, the Pentagon, and Andrews AFB.
Wonder if that book has an English translation?
--Mark
I just read the article - Wow!
And no one in an official capacity would admit anything to this guy?
Oh the speculation that must abound!!
On some Japanese counterpart of of Subtalk - the debates among Tokyo railfans about the existence and extent of this supposed/potential tunnels must beat the 76th st. station threads here all hollow!
Funny. I always sort of thought there was something missing around the new line, near the old city hall, which as I remember was near the prime minister's residence (it ran right along the foundation), but I might remember wrong. Now I have to run home and get my maps.
BTW: What on earth is OT about this??? Dozens of SubTalkers are just about to quit their jobs and charter a plane!
No one has proved their existence yet, but rumours about pre-built tunnels were always abundant among Tokyo subway-buffs. The article mentions O-Edo line as No.7 line, which is wrong. O-Edo is line 12.
The real line 7 is the Yurakucho line which passes right under or next to places like the Imperial Palace, the Diet, and the PM's residence. It has always been rumored that the line was part of a emergency evacuation plan. The line has through service to a suburban line that leads to a former Japanese air base and has rail connection to another line that leads to an US air base.
I think 2000 km is a little over the top, though. Who knows?
If anything is for certain in the article, the guy's understanding of the reasons why there are the depth differences between London Underground's deep tube and shallow subsurface lines isn't very good.
-Robert King
I saw that, too. It makes you wonder how much research this guy actually did. Whether this guy is full of it or not, the book sounds very interesting and I would read it.
To be fair to the guy, for all we know he did properly research Tokyo but only gave a couple other systems outside of Japan a glance. It would be hard to print a book arguing the existance of a secret subway with evidence such as maps etc. to back it up without doing a good quantity of real research unless he's a total crank and inventing things.
-Robert King
It was great to ride with BMT Road Dogg last night. After some touring at Fresh Pond, PBD Jr, and I jumped on Da Beast and rode to Franklin Ave. for the Shuttle to connect with the 8th Avenue Line. Even with the snow on the ground, it wasn't enough to deter a run out to Far Rock.
We had an R-46 going out, but were blessed with getting an R-32 consist on the inbound trip (complete w/GE lead set). PBD and I were planning to meet up with BMT Road Dogg at Euclid Ave. (during a layover), but missed the connection with his C train by a mere two minutes. Our A train finally got the lead on the C at Nostrand and we bailed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn to await the arrival of the C with the crisp and clear announcements of a fellow SubTalker. We road up to 168th w/Da Dogg -- PBD bailing out at Jay Street and me at Franklin Avenue.
A nice little mid-week railfanning with two 'Transit Pros'...thanks for a great day gentlemen.
DANG! Caught several emails on what fun y'all have had in the last few weeks and SERIOUSLY wish I'd had the time AND the scratch to get down there. Since we have to pay for plowing on our road ("it's yours, DEAL with it") we BARELY had the extra cash to send in our Branford renewal ... ghods, I wish I coulda had the time to come and hang out wit da kids. :(
Don't worry, we'll drag ya down to NYC soon enough to 'feed the need' :)
Heh. I thought they already had my mug in all the crew rooms with orders to shoot to maim? :)
No, that's Salaam allah...apparently, you're confusing yourself with him...
Heh. Just wanted to check - that R143 incident last time I was down made for an interesting bulletin and discussion as well. Fortunately my buddy escaped to a happier railroad. :)
Yeah...PATH...a subway (basically) where the T/O's are labeled 'Engineers'.
I've noted a LOT of folks went over yonder. But my buddy went over to NJT. A few other friends went to PATH though. :)
Nah, they just put a "Moo" caption bemeath it.:)
hey kirk.... let me know when you want or have the time to go down... I GO ALL THE TIME ...'give me a holla... and if its good for you we''ll drive down.... kay?
Definitely ... we're hosting a little convention this week, then I gotta try to get caught back up. But I'll be thin on the view here for the next couple of days. Count me in once we can get some bucks together. NYC ain't no free ride for us hicks. Heh.
Hey, Kev! By time your ready to head down here da Brooklyn Bridge'll have a toll on it...
And when I come down, it'll have a TROLL too. :)
Have faith, the state is developing "nostril meters" in the State office of Technology. Soon you'll have a meter running in your pants too. Gotta love these guys, only the "little people" pay taxes. :-\
yep. got a 7 seater van,so sometimes I drive down... other times I take GLI or ADT.Just got back awhile ago,and was down there for that scare with the elevator at Times Square... never seen so many cops and Guardsmen in one place before....everything was screwed up everywhere... what fun.....so if its okay with you,when you get it squared away, give me a shout and we'll make the trip....my son will most likely stare at you for the whole trip[LOL]...but it's all good...
Heh. Will do ... I'd NEVER consider driving down to zooland, Western Avenue's enough of a shaker for me. Nancy won't do it either, so when we go it's off to Bruno's p*nis on the Hudson and a two hour ride. NYC has trains, I believe in USING them. :)
yep. got a 7 seater van,so sometimes I drive down... other times I take GLI or ADT.Just got back awhile ago,and was down there for that scare with the elevator at Times Square... never seen so many cops and Guardsmen in one place before....everything was screwed up everywhere... what fun.....so if its okay with you,when you get it squared away, give me a shout and we'll make the trip....my son will most likely stare at you for the whole trip[LOL]...but it's all good...
Had a great time with you guys as well. It was quite a day and it made the time go faster. Hope you can join me again soon, and if not before April 27th (when the new pick starts), then maybe sometime on the A because that where I'm a-goin'! You'll really be treated to first class!
Give thought to what I said, Dave. We can use you on the A or the C lines!
I am looking into it.
No problem -- we'll just run into you on one of our 'Fantrip to the Beaches of Rock 'n Long' during the summer! :)
I had a lot of fun! Thanks for showing be Fresh Ponds but the real treat what riding with the king of the 8 Ave local Road Dogg. His operation I would have to say is A+. He knows how to keep that train moving and reminds me of how I operate. He handled the crowd very well and was keeps the train on time. The announcements where very clear. We have to do this again and ofcause road dogg your very welcome to join me on the #6 Line again.
The rest of my night went like this I ofcause bailed out at Jay Street to ride the F train to Queens but got off at Rock CTR because it was getting crowded. So I took the next train which happen to be the V Train to Forest Hills. I got off at 71 to get a bit to eat there are lots of places over there. Then back on the train rode an R32 E train to 74 Street to come back home to the IRT #7 Line. I hoped to catch a redbird but no it was a R62A. I rode it to Grand Central and back on the #6 to Pelham Bay. The funny thing was the train I got on was my reguler run.
[The funny thing was the train I got on was my reguler run.]
So, Dave, did your T/O see you? Did you remind her that she almost put one of your friends into traction? LOL ;)
BTW, I'm just glad we were even ALLOWED into Fresh Pond considering the seriousness of the potential disaster that was averted just two days earlier.
Yes she did see me when I got on and I talked to her a Pelham.
Next time you see her, give her my regards...tell her she's a great T/O -- but she'd never be able to operate at Branford -- the line's not built to handle her operating style! LOL!
She is a great T/O and partner. I'll make sure I give her your regards next time.
Hey, Dave -- I found out that the van I was driving behind on Pennsylvania Ave. last Thursday, with the license plate 'M I Lobo', was indeed the TSS I know from Canarsie. That was like a 'Twilight Zone' moment...
Maybe they sent him out to run interference in hopes of keeping you off the GD Franklin Avenue Shuttle long enough to mop down a car or two. Moo. :)
Doug:
what disaster? and what did his T/O do to you? :)
Let me get this straight. According to this site: https://as0.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/Cvar_MR/mailnride.cfm, my friend, who currently buys a monthly MNR ticket from a ticket machine and then buys a seperate 30-day Metrocard, can instead get a single card by mail, will save 9% on his MNR fare, and the Metrocard part of it will be good for the calendar month, not 30 days?
---Brian
true With the LIRR and MNRR, a Mail&Ride can consist of a CALENDAR monthly rail ticket/metrocard, not 30 day
or
just a monthly rail ticket
Thanks
I took the train this morning from LI to Greenwich, Ct. My LIRR train was delayed a bit, so I didn't get to GCT until 7:30 meaning that I'd missed the 7:29 express -- or so I thought. The next train on the board was the 7:37 local to Stamford on Track 23.
At 7:32, as I'm making my way to Track 23 to take the local, a station PA announcement was made that there would be a track change and the 7:29 express would leave from Track 23. This must be my lucky day! I reach Track 23 and hop aboard a car in the middle of the train. No announcements when we leave GCT or 125 Street, but as the collector comes through the car it's clear he has a problem. The car is filled with people expecting the 7:37 Stamford local -- this was the original train on Track 23. It turns out the train's PA system isn't working in our car and at least one other car behind it.
People are complaining to the collector that this is supposed to be the local, and he's getting more and more agitated as dozens of people say there was no announcement. I guess it just didn't click with him that the PA might not be working -- he keeps saying "I made the announcement 6 times. You have to listen to the announcements!".
Whatever. I'm going to Greenwich -- I feel bad and all for everyone who's going to miss their stop, but stuff happens. Eventually, everyone seems to relax a bit -- people who miss their local stop can just get off at Rye and backtrack.
Not the end of the story. We find out later that some poor soul has lost their life on the eastbound local track near Port Chester. We're routed around the police activity on one of the express tracks. Of course, there's no working PA in our car. So things start to get a bit testy again as we sail past Rye station. I realize that there's no cross back to the local track until beyond Greenwich, so now I'm wondering just how much fun we're going to have today.
The train moves back over to the local track and makes an unscheduled stop at Cos Cob -- where a few hundred confused people spill out onto the platform. I notice a few people complaining to that same collector again, except he now appears really p.o-ed. As I walk down the platform with the masses toward the snow and ice covered crossunder (about 30 icy steps down, and 30 more icy ones back up) I see the collector literally yelling into his PA system "YOU PEOPLE HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE ANNOUNCEMENTS. I'VE MADE THESE ANNOUNCEMENTS 20 TIMES ALREADY". Of course, why he was saying this to anyone who was left on the train is beyond me.
Eventually there are about two or three hundred people waiting on the south/westbound platform at Cos Cob. About 5 minutes go by and there is an announcement "Attention at Cos Cob. The local train to Stamford is running 20 minutes late". This is kind of humorous to me, since there are hundreds of people on the city bound platform with no clue and (count 'em) one whole person on the other platform waiting for the Stamford local. But, hey, at least somebody can say they're well informed.
10 more minutes and 2 express trains later, a train finally stops. No announcements, no conductors visible through all the crowding -- everyone gets on board. They make two announcements. The first is local to Harrison, then express to GCT. The second is that due to wire problems ahead, we'll be speed restricted.
I finally arrived in Greenwich 1:20 late. I can only imagine when people who were headed for local stations west of Harrison got to their stops -- after all, the 7:37 was due in Pelham at 8:06, it's already 9:30 and they still have to transfer at Harrison. And I imagine that the handful of people still on the 7:29 express spent the rest of their trip being yelled at by that collector to listen to the announcements.
Of course, we're all still better off than that guy on the tracks at Port Chester.
CG
ah. why does it seem that Metro North always has drama on my days off! i work for them and everything always goes right while im on duty! but on my days off look what happens! LOL. btw guys if u guys go to grand central and the floors are clean, its because i have now been qualified on the scrubber which is the machine that mops the floors! see u soon
I'll look out for you.
In the "why me, God" sweepstakes, I seem to be cleaning up. My second 12-8 in a month on those tracks. (Not mine personally). Of course, as you say, (presuming it was another 12-8 at Port Chester), I'm pretty lucky I don't ever want to lie down in front of a train, so I shouldn't complain, but I was siting on the local right behind your express. Hardly any delay, and the announcements were clear so the hundreds of people who go to P.C. were quite okay with going three stops further and coming back, I guess -- they were quiet. Only twenty minutes stopped on the track, and then whatever they spent returning. I think MNRR brought down a special from the east.
When we got to Stamford (early, since we skipped all those stations) the announcer was quite apologetic. For "police activity on the tracks!" I find MNRR incredibly polite and informative. Too bad the lights and speakers are falling apart in front of our eyes. It must be the most frustrating job on earth, even without people throwing themselves in front of the trains. I hate to be glib, but isn't this just the weirdest, most frustrating end of a winter?
Does anyone have a contact with the Station Cleaners' union?
Maybe that's the place to start!
I'm a good union gal myself, on the board of AFTRA, and on its Health
and Retirement Funds.
Perhaps the union bureaucracy is easier to deal with than the MTA's!
SUBWAY GRRL, check your e-mail I have sent you a contact name.
Peace,
ANDEE
An item on ebay shows a mewspaper pic of an accident on the L with the following headline of this date; 5/19/1941:
A CLOSE CALL FOR THIS ELEVATED TRAIN. CHICAGO ILL. WHEN THIS WOODEN ELEVATED COACH CAME INTO DEAD END SPUR OF THE LAKE STREET DIVISION OF THE CHICAGO TRANSIT LINES, THE BRAKES DID NOT HOLD...
Anyone have any more info on this.
Also, there was a fire an/or wreck in the 50's on the Westside L.
Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2163644356&category=35975
That would be the Market Street spur of the Lake Street "L", which branched from Lake Street at Market and terminated at Madison Street opposite the Civic Opera House. There was an intermediate station at Randolph Street. It was torn down in the early 50s for the Wacker Drive extension. In the final years, trains operated only in weekday rush hours. Before the State Street subway opened, there were four off-Loop terminals that eased Loop congestion: Market Street for Lake, Wells Street for Metropolitan, Congress Street for South Side, and North Water Street for North Side trains. All are now history.
It might also be noted that historically the Market Street stub was the original 1893 terminal for the Lake Street "L," preceding by two years the completion of the line east on Lake Street to Wabash over what later became the north leg of the Loop. Similarly, Congress for the South Side line and Wells Street for the Met predated the Loop, but North Water was actually built after the Loop was in service, specifically as a congestion-reliever.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I wanted to know if anybody had any more information about the wreck.
I got on the 7:16 train to brooklyn at merrick, got to jamiaca ok, then after we stop at East New York, we sit in the platform for about 10 minutes, then the conductor announces there may be a bomb on board so they have to evacuate the rear of the train and wait for the bomb sqaud.
Me, knowing my subways, walked a block to broadway junction and got a C to franklin and from there the shuttle to the Q and got to cortelyou raod in great time (20 minutes from ENY)
I saw the M7 this morning around 7:55 am Queens Bound Leaving Nostrand Avenue Station on the Flatbush branch.
I was right behind you on the 7:44 out of Queens Village. I was at the RFW, so I got to hear the chatter from the train radio. It was interesting to hear your train's crew RADIOING that they were awaiting the NYPD and MTA Police. I was anticipating an earth-shattering KABOOM when the radio-detonated "device" went off. Thought they were supposed to use the phone in a situation like that...
I suspect the chance of detonating a bomb (or, much more likely, dynamite in a construction site) by random radio transmission is really small, especially in the NYC area. If a detonator were sensitive to a wide spectrum of radio frequencies, it would probably have gone off long ago from all the random radio transmissions out there. NYC especially is a hotbed of radio transmission on every possible frequency.
The One Police Plaza, Duane Street, and Chase Manhattan bombings in the '70s were all determined by the Bomb Squad to have been radio-controlled. NYC is a hotbed of RF activity, but not so much that a strong "local" signal won't set a bomb off. Then again, cell phones are radios, too, so all that chitchat might one day make a big bang, too. Not to mention wayside radio transmitters along the ROW.
True, but the detonator (whether designed by someone malevolent or for a legitimate purpose) is going to be set to a very narrowly focused frequency, just so that it doesn't get set off by a random cell phone, police radio, or 2-way taxi radio, etc.
The one at 1 Police Plaza, (New Years Eve '82 into '83) was set off by a cop kicking a Kentucky Fried Chicken box.
A humerous story before I retired. A unit was at a bomb scare and was transmitting over the radio. I was not at the location so I could transmit. I went over the air telling the unit NOT to transmit. He acknowleged me by saying 10-4!!!
You should some of the conductors on the Q , today some kids were holding the doors, so the conductor first said to stop holding the doors......pause....30 seconds later....."We apoligize for the delay, some vandals are keeping this train in the station"....tries to close the doors, gets no indication....then the C/R simply said he has no problen taking this train out of service......still nothing....then the C/R says he has to go to the back of the train......about 5 minutes later the C/r comes back and says on the PA "we had some vandalism on car 2871 and will be moving shortly" (i couldnt really make out the car # but thats what i think it was)
this C/R announced prospect pk and 7 th av and so on as "the next Q circle/Diamonds Stop is atlantic" and finally a C/R who actually tells people to transfer at dekalb for the M N R instead of atlantic or canal
I wonder if we are thinking about the same C/R. I've had one C/R who let the train sit at DeKalb for about a minute to a minute and a half because of the hordes of Tech students coming in. He never closed doors at all. And sure enough, he tells us to transfer to M N R to get to Canal faster. The M N R is faster to Canal when we have that particular C/R on the Q working as slow as s__t at DeKalb.
Most other C/Rs I've seen on the Q never really spend too much dwell time at DeKalb.
I am having trouble reaching his website now. It might have been taken off the web temporarily because a "File Not Found" message displays after trying to locate it.
Sometimes, Railroad.net frequently times out while I log in or try to access one of its forums. Does anyone know why it only sometimes occurs? I believe I have to be lucky to get through this site.
I can't get to his website either. In any event, he hasn't updated it since last October. I sent him an email and a photo a while back and never heard from him.
Michael is the moderator for the "New Jersey Transit" forum on Railroad.net. His handle is "RiverMP21", but I think he's being lackadaisical also about keeping that forum in order. He seems to be quite busy since only a few replies to him comes back at a reasonable time but subsequent e-mails are not answered anytime soon. But sometimes, his website will be pulled off the web and when it recovers, no updates were made!
In the random pool of images that show in the website's domain, the picture with a R62 7 and a Redbird 7 side by side at night does not have a description. Is this in Corona Yard? And why are all the lights on in both of the trainsets?
It is corona yard. Sorry about that, looks like I broke the about image script. Anyway, why are they lights on? Because they didn't turn them off. How are we supposed to know???
-Dave
The R142(A)'s have a safety bounce-back feature that tries to close 3 times then gives up if nothing else works. For older trains, do the doors only try to close once?
In the blizzard on 2-17-03, car #6648 had "L1" did: "close-open-close-open-close-open-close------" at 241, due to ice blocking the bottom part of the door from closing. The C/R, looking out the window of his cab and thinking that no person is blocking the doors, leaves the motorman in charge. I even have pictures of 241 St. because I went to railfan, but uneventfully the snow sent major delays down this line.
On older cars, the C/R controls the doors 100%.
I think the conductor needs to press the Door Recycle button
to cause the doors to do this on R142 etc. cars.
On older cars there is no such feature. Typical practice would
be to "pop" the doors by rapidly pressing the open and close
buttons. This is officially frowned upon.
>>I think the conductor needs to press the Door Recycle button
It's the Local Recycle button, and the doors automatically local recycle 3 times before they stop, and pressing the local recycle button continues the local recycle process that the doors stopped doing, if the C/R choosesto do so.
This is officially frowned upon.
But oh so much fun. :)
Amazing, though, how Conductors can't do this on their own, but adda button that does it, and suddenly it's OK.
You mean the automatic recycling done by the computer being OK but a conductor not being allowed to do so? I agree with you, and the issue was raised in school car over the double standard (and of course avoided). Its just another sign that computers are getting the one up over the humans (think: SkyNet).
We all know its a fact of the job that the train must move and we have to do what's necessary to get it moving, and even though its 'illegal' we do it and most of the time its overlooked, so I'd rather not draw too much attention to how we're 'not allowed' to do it.
Thanks to "GO Go 6 Train" for clarifying the operation. I didn't
quite remember when the recycle kicks in.
One difference between the automatic recycle and the "popping"
of doors by the c/r is that in the former case, only the necessary
doors are cycled. They cycle completely open, then reverse, which
puts no more wear on them than an ordinary station stop. By
popping the doors, the door operators go from open directly and
rapidly to close, without the cushioning steps, which causes
a high current surge in the door motors and a high instantaneous
torque. This subjects the entire mechanism to a shock which
loosens up fasteners, breaks small parts, knocks things out of
adjustment, etc.
One disadvantage of recycle is that it is too permissive. By
re-opening fully, you give additional passengers a chance to
hold that door. IRT Lo-V cars had automatic recycle (with
air-operated doors too!) and they were disconnected because of
the delays they caused during rush hours.
IRT Lo-V cars had automatic recycle (with air-operated doors too!) and they were disconnected because of the delays they caused during rush hours.
Whatever the causes of rush hour delays were, the Lo-V's recycle feature was not one of them.
Consider the theory.
Let p be the probability that somebody will hold open a single door one or two leaf door at any time. Then the probability that it will close the first time is: 1-p = q. The probability it will close on the second try is pq, the probability on the third try is p2q, etc. The expected number of tries for the door to close is:
E(p) = q + 2 pq + 3 p2q + 4p3q + ... = q [1 + 2p + 3p2 + 4p3 + ... ]
Devotees of the binomial series will instantly recognize that this sums to:
E(p) = q(1-p)-2.
and expressed slightly differently this becomes
E(p) = 1/(1-p) and E(q) = 1/q.
Now consider that N doors are tied together so they will not close unless all doors can close. The value of N is 15 for 5 IRT cars hooked together. The probability that nobody will hold open a single door under these conditions is:
Q(N) = Q(1)N = qN
The average number of tries before the doors close becomes:
E(Q) = 1/Q = 1/qN
q being a probability has a value in the range of [0,1]. Under these conditions it is clear that
1/qN > 1/q for all cases except where q = 0 or q = 1, in which case equality holds.
Clearly, recycled doors do not increase closing time for a train. They decrease closing time except for two pathelogical cases: when nobody is holding a door or when nobody is releasing a door.
Um, that's a fine analysis to show that reopening all the doors all the way is far better than reopening a single pair of doors all the way.
But I don't think that's the actual comparison:
- Local recycle as described in the previous post (if I'm not mistaken) is opening a single pair of doors all the way.
- "Popping" the doors is opening all the doors on half the train a few inches before closing them.
The advantage to popping the doors is that gives the obstructor a chance to get in fully but doesn't encourage others to try to make their way in.
In real life at a real subway station such as GCT there is always someone standing right next to the busier doors in the middle of the train. If you open any pair of doors fully, someone will be available to try to jump in (unless the train is totally packed), so q is in fact 0 for that pair of doors until the train gets so full that everyone gives up trying to get on it. That's why popping all the doors works better than fully reopening one.
Um, that's a fine analysis to show that reopening all the doors all the way is far better than reopening a single pair of doors all the way.
The analysis showed just the opposite. Opening a single door and not all the doors results if much quicker "door open" time.
In real life at a real subway station such as GCT ...
Less than 66% of station dwell time at Grand Central is spent in the actual flow of passenger through the doorways. The rest of the time is spent with the doors open and no passenger movement and doors closed with the train not moving.
As usual, a thorough mathematical analysis based on a flawed
model.
What do you consider the model's flaws to be?
I do not consider a decision reached by the IRT more than 70 years ago, without surviving documentation nor subsequent tests in the intevening time, to be a sound basis for judging a model's validity. Would you?
There have been several published studies regarding dwell time dynamics, including those at Grand Central on the Lex. They all show dwell time to be rather unproductive for moving people in and out of cars. My model explains one possible reason for this phenomenon. Do other models offer some real world corroboration in this regard?
(What do you consider the model's flaws to be?)
Briefly, the flaw is that p is not a constant over time, but highly variable, often approaching 1 for long periods of time.
At rush hour, especically if a connecting train has just come in (e.g., at 161st, 149th, or 125th on the Lex, but also often at GCT), p can be very close to 1 for extended periods of time, especially at doors right near the stairs.
You may cite studies about average time that people are entering and exiting, but that's not relevant. It only takes a handful of incidents in rush hour where p remains close to 1 for a minute at a time to screw up a line.
To be technical, the average value of p may be quite reasonably small, but the variance of p is very high.
I base this on extensive personal observation. I see many rush hour trains where no one is being obnoxious, and but also quite a few where the people just keep on coming and trying to hold open the doors.
Briefly, the flaw is that p is not a constant over time, but highly variable, often approaching 1 for long periods of time.
This question pertains to a single train trying to close N doors. The question is whether local recycle capability increases or decreases the average time it takes to close all the doors.
As such, the value of p need be constant only from the time the conductor starts to close the doors until the time that all doors are closed. In practice, the total duration for which p is assumed to remain constant is less than 30 seconds, at Grand Central, based on the published data. It is less at other stations.
It only takes a handful of incidents in rush hour where p remains close to 1 for a minute at a time to screw up a line.
This does not pertain to my analysis, BUT studies tend to show that a greater delay is the case where doors have closed but the train remains in the station before departing.
"They all show dwell time to be rather unproductive for moving people in and out of cars."
Perhaps the train T/O should enter the station, slow to, say 3 mph, and encourage people to jump on and off, without the train's ever stopping!
:0)
It's just common sense. If you have, as you did with the Lo-V
recycle mechanism, a large slow door that continously recycles
with no way for the conductor/guard to turn off that feature, then
passengers will continue to board through that door until there
is a long enough gap in the arrival of new passengers. Under
rush hour conditions, this can mean a considerable delay.
If you have, as you did with the Lo-V recycle mechanism, a large slow door that continously recycles
with no way for the conductor/guard to turn off that feature, then passengers will continue to board through that door until there is a long enough gap in the arrival of new passengers
The LV doors were indeed large and slow. It was the primary reason the IND went to double leaf doors, if one is to believe the literature published at that time.
Now, does this mean that the IRT's experiences would be applicable with faster acting double leaf doors? The gap closes on modern cars roughly 4 times more quickly than the the LV's, making it less inviting to try to pass through the threshold while the door is closing.
The math would indicate that the probability for people holding doors could increase considerably before they would defeat the efficiencies introduced by the local recycle feature. Have you seen contemporary literature stating that increased delays (induced by behavior modification) was the primary reason for deactivating local recycle and not some unrelated issue?
I have to admit that I have seen no documentation as to the reason
why the feature was removed. The assumption that it was because
of rush hour delays comes from speaking with old-time IRT motormen
who recalled that as the reason.
The recycle feature on the R142 and up is fairly intelligent. If it
only re-opens a few inches, and then disables the recycling after
3 cycles, that obviates the primary difficulty with the IRT approach.
From looking over the surviving blueprints, the way the Lo-V doors
worked was similar to "Sensitive Edges" on some PCC doors. If
the sensitive edge was pressed by an obstruction in the door, this
caused the door to return to the full open position, and then the
door would attempt to close again. If the edge was pressed once the
door was closed and locked, nothing would happen.
Passenger inflow rates along the platform are not uniform with
respect to location. At most stations, there are hot zones where
the majority of inflow occurs, then the passengers slowly disperse
to (partially) equalize loading. With this kind of door recycling,
there will always be a queue of passengers waiting at the affected
door, and since the window of opportunity is large, the door will
just recycle for a long time as passenger after passenger makes
a successful grab.
When the R142/142A cars were first coming online, crews were reporting
longer delays getting closed down during rush hours than with the
older equipment. I'm not sure how much of that was just
training and teething pains. Giving the conductor control over the
feature is important, although the initial 3-try automatic recycle
does give the passenger a greater chance of making a successful
initial grab.
You mean that somebody else shares my opinion about Stephen's posts? Wow.
I have learned a lot from his posts. He does explain math and physics) in very elegant ways.
I think that if he were to have introduced the binomial theorem, but then stratified his analysis by scenario (to account for p's variability), then he would have a model with greater validity in the present context.
One disadvantage of recycle is that it is too permissive. By
re-opening fully
On the R142/143 the doors that are automatically recycled do not reopen fully, they open only slightly (I forget what the exact figure is, but I think its 3"). Only when the C/R pushes the 'Local Recycle' button does that door fully reopen.
But conductors can control the doors so they can imitate the Door Recycling function on the R142(A)'s.
Speaking on the same subject, on older trains, the T/O does not receive the clear even if all of the doors are closed. Can this happen? (Or similar to it) The C/R senses that the train is not moving for a time, so s/he sometimes turns the key quickly back and forth so the doors barely open to resend the clear to the T/O.
Indication isn't passed until you turn your key to "run" and remove it. Once you've done that, the doors don't open again unless you're buzzed from up front to do so.
Questions:
1) Does anyone have details of the "E" series locomotives and their status today?
2) What is CONRAIL's "Business Train"?
3) Is the term "Pennsylvania Railroad mainline", referred to all former PRR trackage or only a certain span of track?
Led by E9 No. 4022, Conrail's spiffy all-heavyweight Business Train heads west on the former Pennsylvania Railroad mainline through Bucyrus, Ohio, in April, 1982.
Photo by Alan M. Miller
There were 3, two went to Burt Levin's Junitia Terminal RR and were re-painted in PRR colours. The third E I believe was retained by NS.
Most freignt railroads maintain a number of passenger cars and 1-3 passenger locomotives for use in their bussiness trains. Basically they run around the rainroad's system so that the men in charge can inspect operations, entertain important shareholders or public servents, travel in style to some event like the Kentucky Derby or all 3 at the same time. Think of them like an executive jet, railroad style.
The PRR had many mainlines. The core of their system was a T from NY to Washington and then Philly to Chicago. The line from Philly to Harrusburg and then Pittsburgh was the official Main Line (capital M and L), but any other major PRR intercity could be called a mainline.
There were 3, two went to Burt Levin's Junitia Terminal RR and were re-painted in PRR colours.
That's Bennett Levin.
Bennett Levin's PRR E8's
Bennett Levin's Amtrak E8
This was on the homepage of rapidtransit.net, so I'm sure Paul Matus knows the answer. I'm stumped. Franklin Shuttle?
That would be my guess to, Franklin Shuttle.
That is the Franklin Shuttle, with a BMT Standard doing the honors approaching Franklin Ave., Fulton Street Station. The train just finished traversing the bridge over Atlantic Ave., just past what used to be Dean Street Station. That old interlocking signal is now long gone, and it must have been part of the BRT's original issue. There was an old switch tower nearby on the side closer to Dean Street Station, although it looked more like a storage shed than anything else.
The signal head was a standard Dual-Contracts model for the BRT. Some signals of this type still can be found on the West End, Sea Beach and Culver/Brighton.
Really? So what type of signal was in place there around the time of the Malbone Street disaster? I know that the BRT did use semaphore signals way back when, so what was used at that time in that spot?
Those dual contract type signals are being taken out of service - the ones on the Canarsie line near 105th St. station should be gone by now. The IRT lines had semaphores up until the 1980's at the yard on 180th Street - they are all gone now. Probably too much of a maintenance headache, what with moving parts and the lack of available spare parts.
You are 100% correct! Someone give this man a SeeGar! :)
BMT standard between Dean and Franklin/Fulton, heading north to the terminal.
I've always wanted to answer these but never could.
This time, I'll take a crack at it:
This picture was taken in North America.
I downloaded many routes from teh internet, however, none of them seem to work with the BVE. What's going on? Is there something i need to do besides unzip the files?
Did you read the readme?
The readme didn't have any info about the installation of the train. Just who the creditors were and such.
Name the routes in question either here or by e-mailing me. Also, taking AE2005's advice works in some cases but other route designers don't package the files correctly, nor do they realize that they didn't, which leads to problems.
Wha routes did you download and maybe I can help you, I am also a BVE Route Builder for NYC Subway.
Cool. I downloaded an E NYC subway line, but it couldn't find the train for it, although I did download an r32 train. The file was nycta%De.zip, adn after I unzipped it the file was nycta-e.rw. I tried using this randomizer program I had for it, but it still didn't work...there was an error, saying a file couldn't be foudn for that route. The r32 worked well...I even ended up using it on a London Underground Route.
On a different note, how hard is it to make a route? I would like to see a decent representation of SEPTA's Route 100.
If you're getting complaints about "objects" not found, you might not have collected the NYCT.ZIP file that contains the various images required for things to go. The RW file is JUST the route - and the R32 is JUST the train - the actual "objects" were packaged in a separate file of BMP's, B3D's and other picture objects.
I went looking on the BVE-Wtrain site and didn't see the "objects" file there, but I know they DID have it available at some point (might be there still and I just missed it somehow - but that's what makes it all come together once that's placed into the OBJECTS folder ...
Hopefully one of the guys who run the site will spot this and say "oh yeah, go here" for ya ...
I know the guy who runs the site and I will tell him.
I might have just missed it, but it didn't stand out. As I recall though, MOST of the NYCTA routes require those objects in that collection though most of the more recent ones include them in the file. Didn't want to redownload them to find out if they were in there or not ...
Thanks everyone, especially you Selly. No wonder my IRT 7 route didn't work. I need objects for it. Will the R142A trainset work for it, though. I don't have the R36 Redbird trainset downloaded.
Moo! All ya gotta do is pull the .RW file for that route into a TEXT editor (Wordpad or such) and change the line up near the top where it says
[Train]
file=R36 <- change this to r142a and it'll run that trainset instead of your missing r36. That's the line that picks WHICH train you're running. I love running R68a's on the IRT. 143's are pretty neat too. Collect the whole set! Change what you run at will. It's G-Easy! :)
Ok, where do you extract the trains though, Selly? :)
NORMALLY, they go to \Program Files\BVE\TRAIN folder. Normally the train files contain a subfolder (such as "R36") which needs to be a folder (with its contents) UNDER the main "TRAIN" folder. A WELL packed distribution will contain the folder settings so that all you need to do is run it and extract into \Program Files\BVE folder ... alas, some don't make it that easy.
A handly place to learn the tricks though is here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Hey, I need more help. I opened the route using Notpad, but the file= thing you mentioned exists repeatedly in the file itself.
Wait forget it, I got it to work by deleting the extra 'file' entries, but now I get this huge error message saying I don't have anything.
Hmmmm........ Here's my friend's email address, he's the one who owns bve.w-train.com
talexander@mindspring.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Will he know what to do?
He is a BVE Builder, he's the one who builds some of those lines, with the help of others.
Ok, I sent email. I apologize for the incessant postings,
Sorry I missed you earlier - last checkin for the night. That piece of the file should have had a section that said:
[Train]
file=R36
(that's what I remember the Flushing having. It might have ALSO had file= with a ; in front of those - the ; symbol is used to "comment out" or remove entries you don't want BVE to pick up.
Since you said you had the R32 instead of the R36, then it would have been simply a matter of replacing where it said R36 with R32 and it should have been good to go, or R142A (I think you said originally) ... but that's the only one that would have needed a tweak ...
Hey Guys,
I had BVE for some time now... always when you install again, where does the files,such as KODARKSLAB.BCD, SLAB.BCD and related files go? They are the files that BVE can't pick up... Thanks!!!
What the hell?? Did you press ignore?
I do that all the time when I get my error messages! :) Geez, I need some sleep..
AMEN! IT WORKS!!! Thanks Selly!
It turns out this freaking semicolon (;) was preventing me from doing everything. Thanks. I have the pleasure of running R142A's on the 7 now! Take that mainline!!!
Don't be dissing them ;'s ... they're MIGHTY handy in trying things out and keeping a copy of what was there before so you can put it back after the trainwreck. Glad that did it for ya. I hate to see people twitch. Except for a small handful that earn it. :)
I was looking around at the B'way line pictures, and saw this one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i4000/img_4577.jpg
Where did this SS run, from Whitehall to where, and when?
Well to start, that looks like it's Court Street. Strange, because when the terminal is at Whitehall Street, it's usually the last stop from a train coming south from Manhattan, not coming from Brooklyn.
So the obvious guess is some kind of Dekalb (or further south) to Whitehall shuttle at a time when there was an obstruction between Whitehall and Canal. There would still be Brooklyn people who needed to get to lower Manhattan, though why they couldn't just take Nassau St trains isn't clear.
It's pssible there might have been some type of water main break around Canal St. or City Hall, where both the lines are close enough together that it would shut down both Broadway and Nassau Street service (and IRT Lex as well) temporarily. If that was the case, then turning at Whitehall to go back to Brooklyn in an easy move than trying to turn back at Broad Street.
Maybe this was during a GO. A few weekends ago, R trains ran in two segments, the south one between Whitehall and 95th. This could have been something similar.
That seems to make the most sense, as I don't believe they ever ran a regular service using Whithall as a terminal for trains coming from Brooklyn. They do (and did) use "special" or "shuttle" on GO's though occasionally.
I was looking at the newes Photos and saw all though great shots of Londons rail systems. It looks like you had a great time there. I was in London back in 1995 on my Honey Moon and never got to see the systems there. I only had less then a day at the start and the end of it in London. I told my wife that if we every go back there I would like to ride the system atleate once.
Robert
Glad you like them.. I have some more of a day trip to Amsterdam to post over the weekend...
the time of day framing the shot lighting etc... and the opertor plus a little
luck and you got it !!
thats what i did with the flushing # 7 shots with the rolling stock
on that line there ........on this website
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5955.jpg
I remember in C/R school car seeing that car at 207 Street Yard (6/2001), and the 38 in the background seems to prove it. But the caption says CIYD. But of course I could be missing something too.
Sorry, I'd email you privately but my mail program isn't working right now.
1370 and 1369 were destroyed at Fordham Road in 2000.
Does anyone know the fate of 1366, 1367, & 1368?
I thought 1368 could be converted to a control car and the set could be used on the 42nd street shuttle.
Does anyone know anything about 1366 1367, 1368?
1369 & 1370 are gone.
What is the status of the other 3 cars in the set?
1369 remains at Concourse Yard.
1370, 1366,1367, and 1368 remain at 207th St. The 4 cars were placed together. 1368 and 1370 are said to have severe damage (such as a bent frame). 1366-67 will probably be held OOS as spares until they are needed for duty again....
-The Return Of Stef, Now XP User
"1370, 1366,1367, and 1368 remain at 207th St. The 4 cars were placed together. 1368 and 1370 are said to have severe damage (such as a bent frame). 1366-67 will probably be held OOS as spares until they are needed for duty again"
Between the Jerome Ave.and Union Sq. wrecks, what survivors if any can be made into a five car unit ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If 1368 and 1370 are each beyond repair, there would be not bbe sufficient spares available to make up a new 5 car train. As of right now, only 1366, 1367, and possibly 1436 would count as spares. They'll be held OOS for a longtime, or at least until another R-62 set loses a mate.
-Stef
1370 isnt, last i heard... I guess its time to ressurect my old thread..
from what i heard, the left over trains from the incidents involving R62 will be
1431-1432-1433-1434-1438
1366-1367-1368-1436-1370
I think you're right.
Hi Dave, while on the subject, I found these mix-ups in some of your 42nd Street pages:
This photo is in the Broadway Line 42nd St section, but is really the lower level of 42 Street/8th:
This photo is in the 6th Ave line 42nd St section, but is really Broadway/42nd:
These photos are in the in the upper level section, but are really the lower level 42nd/8th Ave (tiles are like Euclid, unlike upper level). I guess it doesn't really matter as much in this situation because it is technically the same station.
Hope it helps!
I'm pretty sure the middle one is Broadway. Maybe we have some tilesmiths on the board?
Department of Tile here, and you are correct; the middle photo with the rerouted "E" train is 42nd St-Times Sq (BMT).
wayne
How come you don't see a "Times Sq" sign on that platform pillar? I agree that's Times Square on the Broadway line, but can't remember if those placards are on every pillar or every other one.
They are on every column (in theory) at Times Square. SOme over the years have disappeared however, especially at the ends, where I believe the station was extended at some point. Amazingly, you could almost almost recreate that photo today, as the station hasn't changed much (although the R38's have). That wall still looks like that 30 years later!
Or a mis-signed EE train.
These photos inspire some related questions:
1. Looking at the pre-overhaul R-32 I can't help but admire the big letter signs. Much better than the current trend towards small letters in the R-142 and R-143 too (although these are much more visible than the letters generated on the R-32 and R-38. Why small letters? AN aesthetic preference?
2. As for 42nd Street Lower Level, it seems mysterious to me that it isn't used, given where the merge now is, at the switch just off 50th Street lower level and the tendency that has slow things down that comes with it, especially during the rush. The advantage comes in the form of an across the platform transfer from a Chambers Street Bound local to the 8th Avenue Express on the upper level of 42nd Street SB, which due to the wonderful design of Penn Station on the 8th Avenue line isn't possible until 14th Street (or maybe the purpose of both the 34th and 42nd Street designs is to deliberately discourage cross-platform transfers between an 8th Avenue/53rd Street Local and 8th Avenue Express. Still, it seems like quite a waste of trackage which could be useful during the rush avoiding the hard merge. Any other reasoning behind this? Maybe it was done in anticipation of the 7 line being extended?
3. Another question on 42nd Street: Why are the platforms so radically offset?
The design purpose of the lower level at 42nd St. is unknown. It was used from 1959 to 1981 by Aqueduct Special trains and during the early 70s by rush hour E trains.
The platforms at 42nd are offset so that they could be built to accommodate large crowds of passengers. That layout threw me for a loop when I first started using that station in 1967. A month later. it all made sense.
A merge south of 42nd is no better than a merge north of 42nd.
One advantage to merging north is that passengers who aren't picky about which train they get can take whichever comes first.
I suppose that's right, which makes it even more mysterious. The trains could be held, the 8th Avenue locals that is, at the upper and lower levels of 50th Street just as well as at 42nd Street. There's a switch after 34th Street to crossover to the express tracks (which a service using the 53rd Street Tunnel with more distant terminal might have used), so I don't see how that's an issue either.
Very mysterious...
Could it all have been done just for crowd control? The 6th Avenue stations opened a few years later don't seem so concerned with crowd control.
That switch you speak of (the one south of 34th St.) is used primarily to switch a layup train onto the center storage track that extends to 23rd St. There is a switch from the express track to the storage track immediately south of the aforementioned switch. On the n/b side, it's the opposite arrangement: switches from the center storage track to the express track, then from express to local.
AFAIK those switches are not normally used by revenue trains.
My theory is that is was done for some kind of crowd control, or even perhaps to discourage people transferring from local to the express (or visa-versa) at 42nd Street at rush hours, similar to what they way they designed Penn Station to discourage transferring. It probably did not open with the beginning of 8th Ave service, because it is not tiled in the old style IND tile, but rather with the same tile that the underground stations east of Bway Junction have; leading me to believe that it wasn't finished until around the time they were finishing up the eastern end of the Fulton Subway.
Of course there is the other conspiracy theory that it was invented by Hylan for the specific purpose of making it impossible to extend the 7 line west. I guess we'll never know. We can prove that theory wrong if the extension goes under lower 42nd Street, if they are not actually on the same level. However, if lower 42 Street would need to be destroyed to extend the 7, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Hylan built it there for that purpose of hurting the IRT, it could just be a coincidence.
(Of course there is the other conspiracy theory that it was invented by Hylan for the specific purpose of making it impossible to extend the 7 line west. I guess we'll never know.)
We do know. I did measurements and posted them here. The 7 platform is lower, but not by a full level, than the lower level of the 8th Ave station.
However, with a moderate downgrade of, say, 2%, the 7 can clear below the 8th Ave. lower level.
Something on the IND that hurts the IRT...
NOT a coincidence.
Both of these photos are at 57th St. and 7th Ave. on the Broadway line, NOT at 57th and 6th Ave. Note the train on the adjacent track in each photo. 57th - 6th is a two-track station with one island platform while the BMT stop is a four-track express stop.
All fixed, thanks.
The photos of mine that you posted last month are all dated 5/2001. Most are actually more recent than that. (You should be able to find correct dates where you found the photos.)
Thanks but.... you'll have to remind me. Why not drop me a mail with the dates if you don't mind.
And my apologies for butchering you name. Too many r's two few n's. Next time I'll just put in 5 of each to be on the safe side.
In alternating sequence, please. Otherwise you'll have those Sea Beachers and Bay Ridgeites fuming.
(Sorry, I had to bring this back on-topic somehow.)
Guess I'd need a few m's to make the Bensonhursters happy too.
DMX and Jet Li team up in 'Cradle 2 The Grave'; an action packed film whose opening scenes take place in the tunnels og the Los Angeles Metro. DMX and Gabrielle Union end up surfing atop a train as it takes a fast curve through new tunnel. Great film that captures good rail and bus shots of the LA area.
Well, that should inspire some of the local intelligentsia to go surfin'.
I still think the best use of the LACMTA Metro Rail was in Alannis Morrisette's "Thank U" video - she was sitting on the train totally naked!!
I remember an episode on All in the Family when Mike, Archie, and Gloria took the subway in 1977 called Mike the Pacifist. The subway car looked like an R1/9 but it said on the destination sign 4 to South Ferry. Weird because the R1/9 cars can't run on the Lexington IRT.
I remember an episode on All in the Family when Mike, Archie, and Gloria took the subway in 1977 called Mike the Pacifist. The subway car looked like an R1/9 but it said on the destination sign 4 to South Ferry. Weird because the R1/9 cars can't run on the Lexington IRT.
I remember that one also. Actually, I believe the sign had Dyre Ave in the top, Grand Central in the middle, and South Ferry on the bottom, which totally doesn't make sense, but hey, it's Hollywood. It' was funny to see how the subway was portrayed in the 70's. It was made to look like only the dreges of society rode the subway.
I still think the best use of the LACMTA Metro Rail was in Alannis Morrisette's "Thank U" video - she was sitting on the train totally naked!!
She actually wore a bathing suit during filming. The video was shown with certain "parts" blurred out, which made it seem as if she had been in her birthday suit, which wasn't the case.
As you may already know, Peter Dougherty has released his 3rd edition of Tracks of The New York City Subway. I currently carry his books now at my bookstore. Being that the Transit Museum currently doesn't carry the book anymore, I'd figured that i'll give the book some press and carry it at my store and trust when I tell you, its selling like crazy.
So, if you're interested, the name of the store is Posman Books . It's right in Grand Central Terminal, two doors from the Transit Museum, right off the Vanderbilt ave ramp. Any questions you can call 212.983.1111.
Until then
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
How much is it? Pages? Color? Soft or Hard?
I see Pete's book is carring ads in Trains Magazine, plus someone did a review. Great job Peter!!
I see Pete's book is carring ads in Trains Magazine, plus someone did a review. Great job Peter!
Thanks for the kind words, Phil. I've also booked ad space for the June edition of Railfan and Railroad magazine and hopefully they'll review it in an upcoming edition as well. I'm getting modest success from the two Trains ads, and I hope to run another one in that magazine in a few months.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
What is Tracks of the NYC Subway?
Tracks of the New York City Subway, as its name implies, is a 130+ page book containing depictions of every main line and yard track (including track numbers) in the entire New York City subway system--all 722 miles of track and 468 stations of it! A 28-page introduction gives the reader a brief history of the system, a primer on subway signaling (including a colour insert of the most commonly-encountered signs and signals), details on chainage distances, towers, power generation/distribution and a three-page detailed list of abandoned stations.
Here's the link
http://nyctrackbook.com/
Thank you.
The book is $38 dollars. Its a trade paperback w/spiral pages. It usually comes in color if im not mistaken, but I have then in black & white excluding the cover. I think there is about 80 pages. I could be wrong.
Until then,
Peace
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
I currently carry his books now at my bookstore. Being that the Transit Museum currently doesn't carry the book anymore, I'd figured that I'll give the book some press and carry it at my store and trust when I tell you, its selling like crazy.
Thanks very much for carrying my book! It's good to know there's a SubTalker working at Posman! I've linked to the store on my Web site, incidentally.
Just a slight correction, it's version 3.41 that was just released. The Third edition has been out for a long time. I sequentially number the books in much the same way as software is released. 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 etc. 3.4 came out in November, and enough had changed by February that I wanted to do an incremental re-printing, hence 3.41.
Version 3.5 hasn't been started yet, but will contain significant changes to PATH, and by then, hopefully AirTrain as well. As Stillwell and MannyB works are still in progress for the next year, likely nothing will be changed in that regard until the tracks are reopened and service changes announced. The next reprinting, 3.42, will show new Canarise alignment complete.
In answer to a couple of questions I've already received, yes, indeed, there *will* be a fourth edition, and I expect it to debut sometime next year, likely to co-incide with the Manny-B changes, or perhaps later. I have a couple of nice surprises in the pipeline for the 4th edition as well, but I'm keeping those under my hat for now.
Finally, just by-the-bye, shipping/handling/processing costs will rise in May to account for the higher credit card clearing charges I'm incurring as well as the postage rate increase. The book's price itself will remain where it is for the rest of this year at least. Likely until the end of the 3rd edition's run.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Thank You for the update and correction. I will be on the look out for your next edition 3.42. I very glad to have your book at the bookstore. When you get the chance, you should stop at the bookstore and sign some of your copies(If there not sold out yet).
Until then
Peace
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
This weekend of March 8-9, the London Transport Museum Depot - its kind of back-up store place, at Acton Town and adjacent to Ealing Common yard on the District Line - had one of the three weekends of the year when it is open to the public. Huge queue for the Museum when I got to Acton Town, confused with a G.O. on the Piccadilly Line that was taking all the Heathrow Airport passengers off at Acton Town and on to shuttle buses to the airport. Staff were directing people with suitcases to the shuttle buses and people who looked like raifans to the museum queue!
The relevance to this thread - browsing the books on sale in the Museum what do I find but Tracks of the NYC Subway by Peter Dougherty! In the museum depot itself, there was also an old Interborough Rapid Transit Co station sign, from one of the entrances to the downtown platform of a Jerome Ave (4) station - stored away with hundreds of London Underground station signs of various vintages.
> Huge queue for the Museum when I got to Acton Town
Tsk, you should have gone with Simon Billis and myself on 2/28, the private guided tour; there were only 12 people there. See pictures here
-Dave
Cool pictures. But I just noticed that both of the train sets referred as "1960 Tube stock" are "1938 Tube stock".
David.
Great pictures, not to mention a great web site.
But I'm pretty sure those eight pictures you have cataloged as 1960 tube stock are actually of the museum's 1938 stock four-car set. This is beautifully restored, and is runnable.
The museum depot does contain a 1960 car, ex-Victoria Line, but that is unpainted. I think it is the car you can just see to the right on img_23616.jpg; from memory it is next to and on the same track as the 1983 car you picture.
And yes, I was in that queue on Saturday too. Couldn't believe how much interest there was. I was there about five minutes after the depot was due to open and it took me just under an hour to buy a ticket, with all three ticket windows open.
Thanks, I fixed the captions on those 8 photos. I can't quite tell the 38 and the 60 stock apart; I asked the guide about the 1960 Cravens Heritage Train that I saw at Ruislip a couple of years ago and either he misunderstood me or I him and I thought he said that one of the trains at Acton was in fact the 1960 stock. Oh well.
"And yes, I was in that queue on Saturday too. Couldn't believe how much interest there was. I was there about five minutes after the depot was due to open and it took me just under an hour to buy a ticket, with all three ticket windows open"
I got there at 11.55 but had to wait for my daughter, who was coming separately and was late. The queue stayed about the same length for the 25 minutes I was waiting for her, and then it took us 40 minutes to reach the ticket windows (at about 1 p.m.). I didn't mind - I was glad to see that it was so popular!
Wow, they take the whole Tube philosophy all the way. Even with the locos.
On the 1938 stock, what are those black things that appear to be hanging down, lightbulbs or straps?
"On the 1938 stock, what are those black things that appear to be hanging down, lightbulbs or straps?"
Straps.
"Wow, they take the whole Tube philosophy all the way. Even with the locos."
The locos have to fit in the tunnels, so they have to be that shape!
browsing the books on sale in the Museum what do I find but Tracks of the NYC Subway by Peter Dougherty!
And if you cannot make one of the three open weekends at the London Transport Museum Depot, it is also on sale in the shop at the main London Transport Museum in Covent Garden.
After reading the details, I am getting this book! I just have two more little queries... Why use sprial for connections and what are the dimensions..
I will know for certain the date and all other info on Monday morning.
What's the good word, Mr. Tour Guide?
I know it's bigger to allow for easier passage and everything, but what is it comparable to? Is it the same as an R32, R44, R46, etc...?
Do you have access to Gene Sansome's book? If so, look up the diagrams from the R44-46, and compare them to the diagrams available on-line at the Kawasaki website (the R143 and R142 doors are pretty much the same - they were designed for the same ADA goal). Or ask Bombardier (you can call them in Quebec) for a brochure.
The R143's are the same size door as the older fleet. The R142's are wider doors so they can have more thought put in station since there are only 6 doors per side.
Robert
"The R143's are the same size door as the older fleet. The R142's are wider doors so they can have more thought put in station since there are only 6 doors per side."
I stand corrected (it's rush hour, no seats :0) ).
You meant to say, "throughput."
Call? Is it toll-free, calling to cold 'ole Quebec? :)
If I'm not mistaken, the width of the doors on the R-142/R-142As is 54 inches making the doors 4 inches wider than those on the R-62/R-62As.
#3 West End Jeff
Can somebody please tell me exactly(street names) where this yard is.
Also, does anybody know what is there right now?(what types/carnumbers)
I intend to make a trip today, while there is still daylight, so please answer ASAP
What's the rush? Your pants on fire? Ain't nothing there that won't be there in the next couple of months...
other than the Q types that are now in the garbage dumpsters (and there trucks), BMTman!
Yeah, but the Q leftovers -- steel ends and trucks -- will most likely still be sitting there by time T-shirt and shorts weather arrives.
other than the Q types that are now in the garbage dumpsters (and their trucks), BMTman!
It's behind the Costco store at First Avenue and 36th (or thereabouts) Street. You can get a pretty good view through the fence on First. Dunno what's there now, however.
whats the neighborhood like?
Industrial. Mostly deserted. Last time I went there with Clayton, there was only the redbird there. Take the M, N, R, W to 36 Street and walk west toward the waterfront. You need to pass under the Gowanus Expressway/Interstate 278/3rd Avenue to get there. Look for the Costco and it's right behind it. You'll see the rails across the street leading right up to the fence. Take note of the vacant Security booth there.
You forgot to tell him about the neighborhood 'landmark': The Wild Wild West. :)
You forgot to tell him about the neighborhood 'landmark': The Wild Wild West. :)
You'll probably remember that incident about a year and a half ago, when a drunken off-duty cop ran down a whole family. He had been drinking at The Wild Wild West for several hours.
The Wild Wild West was infamous even prior to that incident...
Hey Double D,
Look at whom the poster of the question was? Yeah, he's young &
rambunctious, give him a break. Forgot what you did in those
younger years. Also remember he got a few more years before he's
eligible to enter establishments as the "Wild Wild West".
Dougie, get with the act, he'd be a junior member at BERA.
R30, don't be offended, remember I know your age, my associate
forgot himself. O.K. >GG<
8-)Sparky
Yeah, but you're apparently not aware of the fact that as of the last couple of months the SBK Yard has been under watch from the NYPD...one of our fellow SubTalkers/BERA members was stopped by U/C cops as he was about to take photos of the scrap cars in the yard -- and he wasn't even INSIDE the facility. That happenned last month. Best just to chill at this point and let whatever is going on over there blow over...
Yeah, but you're apparently not aware of the fact that as of the last couple of months the SBK Yard has been under watch from the NYPD...one of our fellow SubTalkers/BERA members was stopped by U/C cops as he was about to take photos of the scrap cars in the yard -- and he wasn't even INSIDE the facility. That happenned last month. Best just to chill at this point and let whatever is going on over there blow over...
Why would the NYPD be wasting time and resources guarding some old cars headed to the scrapper?
From what I have learned there are three reasons:
(1) The scrap cars are good 'bait' to catch graffiti vandals (main reason)
(2) With websites like Ebay, missing parts from old subway cars DOES present an opportunity for thieves to create 'instant collectibles' .
(3) until the cars can be safely moved out to a scrap dealer, they present themselves as 'public housing units' for transients, homeless and/or the criminal element.
Keep in mind that the cars are STILL property of MTA/NYCT until they are hauled off site by NYCH, which might be months away from now as one of their float barges is damaged.
It's the Vandal Squad guys going after graffiti writers. They've been occasionally watching the place for years now. If they catch you in there, maybe they'll search you and give you crap, but so long as you're not carrying spray paint you ought not have a hard time of it.
I really don't think they care much about squatters or ebay. the Q cars had a bunch of mexicans living in them when they were under 4th av for a few months back in 2001. I took a bunch of B&W shots of the cars and only later did I realize one of them was there, naked, in the photo.
Also note the yard is used to receive material as well. While it does not lie around there for long before SBK picks it up. There could have been a drop off scheduled (rare and few in bewtween but possible).
No drop offs recently, Lou. Not with NYCH's float barge outta commission...nothing in or out of Brooklyn by railfreight recently.
^^^"Best just to chill at this point and let whatever is going on over there blow over..."^^^
O.K., so the area is off limits at this time to all SubTalkers, fine.
But still even when the weather warms, IMO you were off track referencing the "Wild Wild West" to that particular poster.
You goofed.
8-( Sparky
I was just being cute...sorry, if you think I was outta bounds with that remark.
I know that, but you also were aware of the age of the "poster" of
the original inquiry, so it was slightly off color.
8-) Sparky
He may not even have known of what we were referring to...if you never heard of that establishment before you wouldn't know of its significance...no harm done...
Bush Terminal notes:
Cars present:
R30 8488
R21 37366
R21 G7420
R21 9306
3 Q units, 1 with no ends, 1 with 1 end, 1 with 2 ends
2 flat cars
Salvagable parts:
R21/R30 Straphangers
R21/R30 Doors
7 Conductor panels(2 R30, 5 R21)
A few lighting covers
A few windows
The R30 Still has Ads in it, some with the current Mta symbol on them Poetry in motion too
4 Q Side doors, complete with mechanisms
Interesting things:
R21 9306 has a modern WF redbird interior, and appears to have been used in service as # 9306
R21 37366, and G7420 have things that look like gas tanks near the center doors
All R21 cars have had asbestos abated, a notice saying so on 37366
The back gates were open, so anybody could enter
I wouldn't be going into that yard even though the gates are wide open...could be a setup by NYPD...the yard has been under survillance for some time now and you were lucky you hadn't been stopped by UC cops.
NOBODY was in the area... Not even homeless people, just a costco guy pushin shopping carts, and an occasional bus... the car doors were mostly closed, so if you were inside the car, you were unlikekly to be seen.
Took some pics...
You just don't get it, someone could have been hiding out in one of those cars to arrest you for trespassing. Entrapment? Yes! Set Up? yes, but the judge won't wanna know your side!
Who cares? You're not the kid's father, let him do his thing. He wasn't vandalizing or destroying property. And trespassing, if you are caught, is barely a slap on the wrist. I'm sure there are dozens of railfans who would've done the same thing.
Exactly.
As an adult, you'd be unfortunate to so much as get a desk appearance ticket for it. As a minor, I suspect any judge would toss the whole thing out the window as a waste of his or her time.
Huh? R21 9306? I am missing something there....
I was wondering about thast too... Its a redbird
Its an R21-22. and it has interior and exterior stickers saying "9306"
9306? That's an R33S-WF car that was in the museum, but in 2001 when I worked at the US Open, I saw the car being used for storage. I can't believe that this ex-museum car is now about to be cut up. What is going to take its place, 9327 (R33sWF with Subway Series stickers)?
9306 is indeed an R-33 single car and it is indeed in the Transit Museum, painted in its original World's Fair colors.
The car seen in the scrapyard was an R-21 that served as a yard office (if my memory is working today) and, for some reason, had "9306" number stickers put on it. We've talked about it here before...anyone wanting more information might want to look in the archives.
David
Maybe it was originally 7306 (which would make it an R-22) and somehow got renumbered incorrectly
oh yeah... No axiflows This one was AC'ED!!!!!!!!!!!!(or it looks that way... complete with "air conditioned car-Please Close windows)
9306 is really 7261. Unless I'm looking at the wrong photo, the holes for the axiflows have been plated over, but there are no AC units; since the car served as a yard office at Corona, the "Air Conditioned Car" stickers were probably a gag and/or referred to a Fedders sticking out of a side window.
I was last there around early 2001. I saw what i believe were Q units or some other and a pair of pre-GOH R42's with blue doors on the side. The property where CostCo is now used to be a part of the SBK yard. If any of you guys watched the TV show "The Equalizer", an episode was filmed there during the 80's on an R21 work car that was about to be scrapped. There weren't any fences at the time on 39 Street. You were able to jump right into the cars. The current scrap storage yard if I recall is on 2 Ave between 39 and 38 Streets. I don't know if there's anything there now.
I remember that episode of "The Equalizer" its a episode that they shoot a scene @ SBK scrapyard towards the end of the show & I recall that it was a work train of R17 or R21/22. Wow it was so easy back then to go in there since their was no fence.
I don't know if there's anything there now.
R30 already posted what's there now. In late 2000/early 2001, R-22 work motor 37349, R-30 #s 8483 & 8528, R-40 #s 4260 (9 Ave derailment), 4427-8 (Bushwick-Aberdeen wreck), R-42 4664 (Williamsburg Bridge), R-44 5319 (Rockaway fire), locomotive #11, flat car 0F137, a crane car, a rail welding car, and a pair of R-17s transformed into R-142 mockups all went to scrap via SBK and Cross Harbor.
I wonder if records have been kept by the MTA about how and when each car was disposed of...
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Are you allowed to stay on a 6 train after Brooklyn Bridge in order to see the City Hall loop station?
yes
But the T/O or C/R might try to chase you off anyway. My advice is to play along and wait for the next train. The 6 runs frequently and eventually you'll find a cooperative crew.
I think NYCT frowns on this because they are afraid of getting sued if the train breaks down on the loop and the passenger becomes trapped.
>>> I think NYCT frowns on this because they are afraid of getting sued if the train breaks down on the loop and the passenger becomes trapped. <<<
And why would a passenger be more likely to sue if a train breaks down on the loop any more than a passenger on a train that breaks down in a tunnel anywhere else?
Tom
To minimize the chance of being chased off:
1. Don't ride in the front or a middle car.
2. Ride in rush hour. They're on 2.5 minute headway and don't have time to go looking for stray passengers.
I did this recently and nobody ever noticed I was there.
Technically yes but most train crews will chase you off the train anyway. You might eventually find a train crew that will let you stay on but it might take awhile. I personally have tried to do it twice and twice got yelled at over the PA that BB was "LAST STOP! LAST STOP! NO PASSENGERS! NO PASSENGERS!"
If you are determined and have a lot of free time, I'd say you could get it done.
R142A asked, "Are you allowed to stay on a 6 train after Brooklyn Bridge in order to see the City Hall loop station?" I have done this, but it's so dark in there that you barely see anything.
(but it's so dark in there that you barely see anything. )
Press you face against a side window and put your hands around you eyes to shelter them from the reflections of the lights within the car. The lights from the car itself illuminate the station; you just have to avoid the reflections.
I remember that back in the day there was a huge debate, fueled by Edison's General Electric co and George Westinghouse, over while type of energy supply posed a greater risk to the public. Basically each side tried to portray the other method of power transmission as a public menace that would shock and kill everyone who came near it. In fact, the invention of the electric chair was spurred by Edison trying to show that AC killed people faster.
Anyway, I have since lost track of the book where I read all of this stuff and although I know that most of the claims were corporate propaganda I wanted to also all those electric oriented people out on the board if one system IS more dangerous than the other at comparative voltages and current loads (dangerous in terms of both killing power and maybe the ability for the current to leak and travel distances), or if, like I suspect, it depends on circumstances and given the right conditions one form could be more dangerous than the other and it could reverse if conditions change.
This relates to the board as there were many heated depates over early trolley systems and their safety.
In practical terms, they're both deadly.
In truth, there is a real debate about safety between Europe and the US: Europeans use 50 cycle 220 volt electricity in residential settings. In the US we use 60 cycle 110 volt power, which, while still quite dangerous, still allows people to survive being shocked.
I've always thought that reducing voltage in the home to 110 was an important contribution to safety which Europeans do not sem to appreciate.
Actually, the 60Hz of American is very close to the average heart rate and is more likley to stop normal sinus rythim than European current.
"Actually, the 60Hz of American is very close to the average heart rate and is more likley to stop normal sinus rythim than European current."
Where did you read this?
Eh it was a while ago. Either a physics teacher or shop teacher I believe. It sounds perfectly reasonable.
"It sounds perfectly reasonable"
Not to me. What does a rate of 60 cycles per second have to do with a heartbeat of 80 per minute?
Obviously the heartrate they were using was 60 per minute.
You still haven't answered the question. Look at the denominators.
You are trying to compare cycles/second to cycles/minute, to need to convert everything to one or the other. 60 Hz equals 60 cycles/second. You are talking 60 heartbeats/minute, that is only equivilant to 1 Hz, nowhere close to 60Hz.
first both are AC not DC
but the 220 volt wiring is lots safer due to low amerage. as far as touching both are dangerous.
"first both are AC not DC"
Yes, I understood that - but I should have prefaced my comment.
"but the 220 volt wiring is lots safer due to low amerage"
I disagree. There is plenty of amperage present in both the US and European circuits (after all, you have to run appliances with them), but the greater potential of the European circuit mkes it more hazardous.
The greater voltage of European circuits makes for a higher danger of electrocution. In some countries this is mitigated by extremely safety-concscious plugs that do a good job of preventing you from coming into accidental contact with a charged wire.
The big advantage of 220 is that the lesser amperage means extension cords, etc., don't get as hot, reducing electrical fires. An FDNY fire captain has told me that fire deaths are far lower in parts of Europe, possibly due in part to the lesser amperage in wires.
My guess is the improved fire safety outweighs the reduced electrocution safety, but I don't have numbers.
"The greater voltage of European circuits makes for a higher danger of electrocution. In some countries this is mitigated by extremely safety-concscious plugs that do a good job of preventing you from coming into accidental contact with a charged wire. "
Thank you. Exactly my point.
"The big advantage of 220 is that the lesser amperage means extension cords, etc., don't get as hot, reducing electrical fires. An FDNY fire captain has told me that fire deaths are far lower in parts of Europe, possibly due in part to the lesser amperage in wires."
That would be a valid argument for the supporters of 220 volt electricity. However, it would beg the question, "Haven't electrical cords gained better insulating characteristics over the past 50 years?" Translation: Whydo you need to increase the shock hazard in order to reduce the fire hazard?
To a person at professional risk (electrician), I imagine working on 110 volt power would be a bit more attractive...
(Whydo you need to increase the shock hazard in order to reduce the fire hazard?
To a person at professional risk (electrician), I imagine working on 110 volt power would be a bit more attractive... )
I believe the European thinking goes somewhat like this:
Electricians are smart, the general public contains a lot of stupid people. Electricians are trained to be careful. No matter how much you train the public, some will overload circuits and cords so that they become a fire hazard. An increased hazard for (a relatively small number of) electricians is easily outweighed by the decreased hazard for a large number of the general public.
By the way, any modern circuit breaker box in the US has 2 110 volt circuits 180 degrees out of phase with each other, allowing the enterprising electrician to give themselves a 220 volt shock too. So the increased danger to electricians in Europe isn't even that great.
"By the way, any modern circuit breaker box in the US has 2 110 volt circuits 180 degrees out of phase with each other, allowing the enterprising electrician to give themselves a 220 volt shock too."
This is true.
In the house that I bought, I had my electrician remove a very amateurishly rigged and fraying 220 volt line hooked up to a Frigidaire washer/dryer stack.
Electricians are smart, the general public contains a lot of stupid people. Electricians are trained to be careful.
Sez you (or the Europeans)! Having dealt with more than my fair share of stupid electricians doing really unsafe things, I'll trust myself to do electric work around the house rather than call one in.
I glibly summarized what I think is the European approach to safety.
However dumb some electricians are, they're a lot less dumb and careless about safety than much of the population.
Also, if you kill off .01% of electricians (say), it's a lot less than killing off .01% of the general public.
However dumb some electricians are, they're a lot less dumb and careless about safety than much of the population.
To adapt a statement made in a different context:
There are old electricians, and there are dumb electricians, but there are no old, dumb electricians.
Well said. LOL!
----
To a person at professional risk (electrician), I imagine working on 110 volt power would be a bit more attractive...
----
Either way, from a safety point of view, OFF is the best state to work on electrical systems. If that isn't possible or feasible any real electrician should be able to handle 120 or 220 without problem. The 100 volt difference in either when live doesn't change much with respect to safety: you either get zapped or you don't and getting zapped is dangerous regardless.
-Robert King
I'm with you on that!
I ve heard (and experienced) that AC holds you and DC throws you.
Having been shocked by 600 v AC at low amperage, I could not let go of it. Fortuately, there was somebody who cut the circuit off before I went bye-bye. Having been shocked by 600 V DC trolley, it does tend to throw you. I was on top of a line car, accidently contacted across a span insulator and was tossed against the safety railing on the line car's platform. I don't recommend trying this at home or on your local streetcar, light rail or subway's DC supply source. I wasn't hurt by either the AC or DC shock, but have never repeated it again.
Good grief! ou do live dangerously! But you survived twice to tell about it.
>>> I wasn't hurt by either the AC or DC shock, but have never repeated it again. <<<
Humph! You are just offering anecdotal evidence. Go back and try each way 10 more times and then we will have some scientific data. :-)
Tom
Practically speaking, any electrical that can power a transit system has enough voltage to kill you if you come into contact unless you are very lucky. So I don't see a relative safety benefit of either AC or DC.
It's the amps that get you, and it's about .12, IIRC. The voltage just gives it the ability to push through you and draw enough amps.
On some level, AC might bemore dangerous than DC because of the higher peak voltage, plus any effects of the sine wave, but they're both dangerous.
Edision's "War of the currents" had more to do with his ego than any real safety issue - He liked DC, didn't think much of Tesla, and thus thought AC was bad. AC wasn't his idea, so he didn't like it.
In any case, AC won out because of transformers plus the brushless motor. Even Edision supposedly admitted in his later years that he was wrong about the whole AC Vs DC thing.
Both have their uses, but both also introduce design kinks into things - for example, it's been demonstrated that the life of incedescent lights is lower when run on DC than AC. Then again, AC has problems when it comes to relays and coils, because of short periods of zero voltage present..
incandescent life is lower on DC? I figure it would be lower on AC, because it keeps flipping from on to off, 120 times per second (the current goes up 120 times, 60 in each direction), and the rapid heating/cooling would kill the filament quicker.
To be completely honest though, I'm not sure what kills light bulbs, but I'm assuming it's the temperature change, which is why they usually die when you flip the switch on.
It's not AC that kills a filament. It's that when you turn light switches off, then come back and turn them on, then off, you're allowing the filament to expand and contract from the resistance-generated heat, and eventually it breaks. The way to maximize a filament's life is to turn the light on, and then leave it on (but then you waste electricity lighting a room for no reason. So it's a trade-off).
Actually the problem is that when the filament has not been heated up the current through it is much higher than at working temperature. (lightbulb is a constant current device) The way to maximize bulbs life is to up voltage gradually.
Arti
Yes, true.
It's a phenominon GE identified, at least on smaller lamps, called 'fillement notching'. I don't think they totally understand it either. It's only really come up in the last decade or so as lights driven by electronics (typically DC), have appeared in places.
and the rapid heating/cooling would kill the filament quicker.
The thermal time constant of the filament is very slow compared
with the 60 cy line frequency, or more precisely 120 cy which
is the effective frequency since the heating of the filament
is the same regardless of current direction. The variation
in instantaneous temperature is small, because the filament does
not have a chance to cool down very much before the current
starts to build up in the reverse direction.
«It's the amps that get you, and it's about .12, IIRC.»
I seem to remember it was 50 mA. Based on average human skin conductivity anything above 60V is usually lethal. That's why 48V is used for temporary lighting in construction sites for example.
«On some level, AC might bemore dangerous than DC because of the higher peak voltage, plus any effects of the sine wave, but they're both dangerous. »
That DC wasn't exactly DC, it was just not zerocrossing.
Arti
Also, it matters greatly where the electric current travels in your body when you get a shock - across the heart is the worst.
I had a 'hot chassis' experience last week when I was trying to plug in a CD player and discovered that someone had unplugged and then replugged in backwards my stereo amplifier so that it's body was live. The 105 volts across the thumb and two fingers in one hand certainly wasn't leathal or damaging but uncomfortable...
-Robert King
But if you'd had damp hands and one of them was resting on a radiator at the time you wouldn't be posting any more.
Line one of my previous posting deals with this sort of situation:
----
Also, it matters greatly where the electric current travels in your body when you get a shock - across the heart is the worst.
----
Hand to hand to earth would be a very effective cross heart current path of the lethal sort. This is why I always make sure I'm ungrounded when I work on electrical equipment and I'm careful about everthing else I'm touching at the same time. That way, a cross finger shock is about the worst I've had from working on equipment.
Did you somehow get the impression that I'm not careful about this sort of thing?
Actually, it would be very useful if someone could explain something to me: What is it that causes the automatic assumption that I'm not very competent at most things to be made about me? Or has anybody from the delightful local railfan community in/around Toronto started up another rumour campaign again that I'm not aware of, and is circulating false information regarding my competencies and abilities? Or what?
-Robert King
(Did you somehow get the impression that I'm not careful about this sort of thing? )
Not in the least. Just pointing out in general how relatively little distance there is between safety and never being heard from on Subtalk again.
Sorry if you thought I was suggesting any sort of carelessness.
I'm sorry about the pointed reply. The suggestion that I could very easily not be posting on Subtalk had things been different really threw me and I wasn't entirely sure what to make of it, especially considering some of the stuff that's been thrown my way over the past four years.
As to the second question, it's something that's been nagging at me for a good six months at least and the nature of my reply provided a framework to ask it. Again, it comes down to mounting fustration on my part over the rubbish that's gone on and on from all sides for nearly five years now.
-Robert King
Don't let subtalk get you down and don't read too much into people's postings. A few people like to needle other people, and then again sometimes people accidentally needle other people, like I did. There's a lot of interesting stuff here, and mot people mean well.
Every time one allows electricity to enter one's body, there's a chance the path the electricity will take will include the heart. If the charge path crosses the SA node (the intrinsic pacemaker) it's a little like getting a countershock from a defibrillator. Except that it's not in a controlled setting, of course, and the wallop you get is likely to fry the SA node (or the Purkinje fibers etc.), in which case you are most certainly dead.
"Edision's "War of the currents" had more to do with his ego than any real safety issue - He liked DC, didn't think much of Tesla, and thus thought AC was bad. AC wasn't his idea, so he didn't like it. "
Exactly right - plus, he was trying to build a monopoly, just like all the industrialists around him!
Edison didn't like it because he couldn't inderstand AC. AC invloved complex math and physics. Edison was a tinkerer who invented by trial and error (brute force). Tesla was a theorist who was able to turn his theoretical ideas into a working power distrabution system
Edison could have hired anybody he wanted to deal with AC. That was only a small part of it. Don't underestimate his intelligence.
Sorry for being highly cramped for time, or I would have gotten into this earlier. On a GENERIC basis between AC and DC, AC is technically "safer" because of the zero-voltage crossings upon each half cycle. If you were to grab a "bus bar" carrying DC, you would NOT be able to let go of it until you've burned up. AC on the other hand, owing to the zero crossings WOULD allow you to maybe release your hand from the bus bar. DC "makes you stick" ... that was the major safety argument between the two. But the voltage and current will get you either way if it's sufficient ...
(AC on the other hand, owing to the zero crossings WOULD allow you to maybe release your hand from the bus bar.)
The "zero crossing" would means that for 1/6 of a cycle (+ or - 30 degrees out of 360), the voltage is less than half of peak voltage (since sin (30 degrees) is 1/2). That's 1/360 seconds for a 60 Hz current. Is that enough for muscles to relax their grip? I thought a typcial muscle action took 1/10 second or more.
You're right. There isn't enough time for muscle relaxation.
That's correct. But you at least have MORE of a chance than with DC. Prime directive here is RESPECT current carrying wires, no matter WHAT'S on them, and you might be able to post on subtalk in the future. :)
AC is AC as long as it alternates, Selkirk didn't specify a specific Hz range so in some cases his statement is true.
(Selkirk didn't specify a specific Hz range so in some cases his statement is true.)
Of course. I was talking practical AC (i.e., 60 Hz). And besides, I was asking, not telling. The effect he mentioned might in fact be real at 60 Hz; I don't know.
You could do 1 Hz AC and have a nice long time of near-zero voltage. You wouldn't be able to run high speed motors at a consistent speed with 1 Hz AC, however.
>>In fact, the invention of the electric chair was spurred by Edison trying to show that AC killed people faster
I thought electric chairs were DC because when shocked by DC, a person "sticks" to the current and gets shocked longer. With AC, a person gets thrown back instantly and has less of a shock.
Knowing that, I would think DC is more dangerous, but any high amperage will kill no matter the type of current.
I was on two confused R-142's on Thursday. The first, on a SB 5 train, didn't mention the shuttle when it stopped at Franklin Avenue, but it did mention the 2, 3, and 4. The second, on a NB 2 train, didn't announce any transfers at all at Atlantic, Park Place, or Times Square. There was no ping, which there usually is when the C/R blocks out an outdated announcement.
And on Monday afternoon I saw a PBP-bound 6 train (R-142A) at 51st Street signed as a Manhattan express and Bronx local. That's reversed.
What's going on?
A software glitch (possibly reading the wrong record in the database).
Of course they're confused. Today I was on a 4 that was a 5 that was out of service that announced the station 2 minutes after we left.
I saw that train on my way to observe the #2 G.O. (on the BusTalk part of the site). Was that train 7705-7701/7710-7706?
I saw 7706-7710 and 7686-7690 on the 5 today.
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
ok, that was the front end (7686-7690). Thanks.
But such confident, resonant errors! I'd elect the R-142 President any day! (Didn't I once hear that was an out-of-work soap opera actor's voice?)
If the C/R blocks out the automated message, and does not have the automated Stand Clear message play, then there is no ping.
No, there's a single ping whenever the C/R makes a manual announcement. The usual way of blocking out an incorrect automated announcement is to make a manual one in its place.
I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. Anytime you try to automate a system as diverse and subject to emergency changes like ours, you are going to run into trouble like that described above.
Call me an old fart (I'm 38) but in my opinion, nothing will ever be as efficient as the good old manual rollsign and properly made HUMAN announcements.
Yes, given the conductor doesn't mumble or is eating/drinking something. :)
In general, I disagree. An automated system, properly designed, could have been programmed on the fly for GO's and emergency reroutes.
But, given the particular automated system installed in the cars, I agree that human announcements are more reliable and flexible.
I've been through this before, so I'll stop now.
Hi all,
I'm done with St. Louis route map and I need some help with it's track map especially yard/shop area trackages in St. Louis. Feel free to check for any errors (e.g. spellings, switches locations, etc...)
E-mail me privately and I will file attach a DRAFT COPY. Please, only for those who really knows St. Louis! If you don't know much about St. Louis light rail, please wait till Dave Pirmann post final track map soon!
Thanks in Advance!
Michael Calcagno
Today I planned to go on another picture trip, hoping to take at least more pictures than I did last time, which was 48. I got 69. I was supposed to hit 207, 240, Concourse, and 239 St yards. Most were a success, with the exception of 207 St.
First of all, the trip there was a rough one; getting off the (1) onto the (A) at 168 St made me nervous with the only way to get upstairs being an ancient, rickety elevator. Then, when I got on the A to 207 and got off, I got lost trying to find a spot to take pictures. Not finding one, I tried to board the (1) train to continue up to the Bronx, and luckily got a shot of the (1) going into 207 St (I thought the 1/9 didn't use that yard?). But, I had to cross the messy, muddy, slushy, slippery street because there's no entry at the north side, and on the south side you can only get in with MetroCard. In fact, on all the stops from 207 St to 238 St, you can only go uptown with MetroCard (there are signs that say "Token Entry" and notices that speak of a hotline to call if the turnstile isn't working, but no token-turnstile. And God forbid if the HEET Turnstile malfunctions (there's only one), because then you can't go uptown at all. Taking the bus would've been worse, because the stop is in the middle of the street.
I saw the wierdest thing, too. An R-142 train of 5 cars, marked "NOT IN SERVICE", came roaring down the center track at Allerton Av at about 45-50 MPH, and roared RIGHT PAST A RED SIGNAL. Then, somehow, magically, it stopped short of the next station, without making a sound, then returned at 30MPH, and ran past ANOTHER RED SIGNAL. No, it wasn't a GT-cleared signal or anything, and it did NOT change just before the train passed. It kept going and stopped around Gun Hill Road, then went back again.
Do these signals even have automatic train stops? Or are they all broken? Or was I seeing things? Is that myth about chili hot dogs and hallucinations true? I did have one an hour before...
Anyway, when I got to 239 St Yard, the entrance/exit on the north side, by the Bx41 terminal, was WIDE OPEN and banging in the wind. No signs or disclaimers like "No Tresspassing" or "No Entry" or "Private Property", were hanging anywhere. Anybody could've just waltzed up in there and done anything.
Also, the yard was nearly full, with room for only one more train. Just out of curiosity, does anybody know, if all the trains in the entire system had to go out of service for some reason, would the yards & layup tracks have the capacity to hold them? Apparently not, because there were four trains running on the #2 and another three or four on the #5, and E 180 St/Unionport was also full.
Later on, of all things, I actually spotted TWO Redbirds, on the #5. Redbirds are becoming increasingly scarce, so to see two in one day is extremely rare. I thought all the redbirds were on the (7)? Oh yeah, the train I got on was wierd. It was a train of R-142(A?)s assigned to the (4), running as a (5), displaying "NOT IN SERVICE" and "NO PASSENGERS". To make it even worse, the #4 map was actually lit, and the announcements were made for station stops a minute after we already left the station. What is the point of having a train with automatic stops programmed in if they're pre-set and fixed? The conductor had to speak herself, and the passengers had to get confused.
Finally, to top it all off, I saw the wierdest, rarest thing of all: an R40M running on the (W). I hardly ever even see R40Ms anymore, and you certainly never see them on the W.
As for the pictures, I'm uploading them as I'm typing. There are 69 of them, and about 67 came out. Hopefully they'll be up sometime tonight, at "http://www.bwayjcteny.com/".
(I thought the 1/9 didn't use that yard?): They go to 207th for washes.
The signal thing, I'm thinking it was the chili dogs. :) Or they knew there was a signal problem and that was a test train. See any workers on the premesis?
I noticed the whole HEET situation up there last time I was at 240th, I had to send some mail at the post office and when I went back upstairs saw the sign. IIRC, the sign also mentions that if the turnstile isn't working that you must take a downtown 1 to wherever and change, right? Or maybe its the myth of the chilidogs too. Hell of a thing to have to do during the night.
Did you see the same thing I saw on the W with an R40M: s-4517-6/4478-9/4475-4/4466-7/4451-0-n? (I rode that train home.) Also, did you see the same thing on the 5 as i did: that R142A train 7705-1/7710-06? (I saw it going up to observe the GO on the #2.) As far as that fast #5 train, I imagine that it may have been testing in the middle track, with the signals disabled.
correction. It was 7686-90, not 7701-5
The stop arm must have been hooked down so the train could run up and back without slowing down. A this point there has to be a G.O. working for that track so the train would be the only train on that track, all switches have to locked in the strait posion and lamps and trips have to be put out at eather end of the G.O. track.
Robert
The easiest views of 207th Street yard are from the 1 at 207th and 215th.
As for your other questions, you may want to familiarize yourself with car and shop assignments for each line. The IRT is easy, since each line has its own shop (or two), so each line has a dedicated fleet. There are still Redbirds assigned to the 4, 5, and 7. However, because of the weekend GO, the cars used on the Manhattan segment of the 5 are in fact assigned to the 4 -- that's why you saw R-142A's with 4 strip maps. (During this GO, the 5 usually only gets R-33's and R-62's from the 4.)
Coney Island yard is home to the N, Q, and W lines, with R-32's (only 20 cars left!), R-40's, R-40M's (recently transferred from ENY, with more on the way), exactly one R-42, R-68's, and R-68A's. The circle-Q gets mostly R-68's, the diamond-Q gets R-40's and R-40M's, the W gets mostly R-68A's, and the N gets a mixed bag of whatever is sent its way. However, on weekends, when the N is shortened, the W usually gets a few trains that would otherwise go to the N. I don't think I've ever actually seen R-40M's on the W, but I have seen R-32's and R-40's:
"First of all, the trip there was a rough one; getting off the (1) onto the (A) at 168 St made me nervous with the only way to get upstairs being an ancient, rickety elevator."
Weren't those elevators recently replaced ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The 1 train was going to the car wash in 207 yard. HEET's are used at all the NB stations from 207 to 231, the only way to enter 238 NB is with a key to unlock the padlock.
When SB trains are running express due to a GO, is that padlock left open or are passengers expected to walk to 242nd?
With the condition the stairs are in it is better left locked.
An R-142 train of 5 cars, marked "NOT IN SERVICE",
..........................
breakin down allready ??
.........................lol !
No, but it was probably running a test. Don't get your hopes up.
I've had that happen to me at 215th Street. The HEET wasn't working, so I had to go to 191st to switch directions since it was rush hour and they were doing skip stop.
Yet another reason to abandon skip-stop!
Sorry about the photos, I've been kinda busy yesterday...They're already uploaded, I've just got to get them onto a page. Hopefully they'll be up by 10:46 AM. I'm about two-thirds finished as I'm writing this. So far, only one didn't come out.
I don't know what the heck happened, but picture # 374 of an R62 S Train just disappeared!
I finally got them up there 65 out of 69 (1 of them just disappeared without a trace!), after a very long day. I was trying to put them up during computer class this morning, because my teacher was out again (6 days now), but these dumb kids kept asking me for the answers for the take-home test they had to hand in for math next period. I oughta start charging them five bucks an answer...They had me doing their homework for over half an hour. Anyway, the pictures are finally up, including an R40M (W) train and a (1) train on the 207 St yard lead. The url is "http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/3-8-03"
I saw an R-40M running on the (W) on Sunday. Look at my post about 54 new photos.
Boy, what lousy timing. I go out without my camera, and I get an up-close and personal look at a test on the SJLRT in Camden. I saw car 3506 on a slow run crossing Broadway at the Walter Rand Transit Center. As the car inches along, I got a great look inside the car. They can hold 40 passengers on each cab end of the car, and the middle with the diesel engine is EXTREMELY quiet. You can barely hear the engine, not an easy feat compared with the engines of NJT's RTS bus [you can hear them a mile away]. the cars have high-backed seats, and luggage racks. The interior looks really cool, and it seems that when the line is in service later this year, the ride in those seats will be extremely comfortable.
I hope that NJT gets its act together, and hurries to open the route so I and many other railfans can get a good look at a unique rail line.
Here's an interior shot of a SNJLRTS car.
Just a cautionary tale--
Every now and then I check the links from links pages on my web pages, just to see if they're alive or dead. Obviously, if dead, I try to find out whether the site I'm pointing to is gone, or just offline, or whatever.
The Museum of the City of New York used to maintain a nice resource pointing to nyc history sites at nychistory.org. It's URL was (duh) nychistory.org. So when the link was dead, I looked to see what happened to it, and found that they hadn't renewed and that the name was apt to be dropped from the registry soon, so I began tracking it.
Anyway, to make a long story short, the name was immediately picked up when it was dropped, by a familiar search engine company called Ultimate Search, when runs from a P.O. Box in Hong Kong. They pick up generic names and use the traffic to them to power affiliate links. They have a LOT of names, and unlike a lot of companies that do this, they don't just go after the more popular or salable names.
There have been a lot of ICANN arbitrations against them and so far they appear to have one every single one. Apparently that WON'T sell your name back to you, a fact which probably helps them win the arbitrations.
So ... if you've got a website name you like, make sure you renew it ... mebbe for a few years.
This cybersquatting business bothers me. It seems that to claim the name nychistory.org, one should at least be an acutal .org dedicated to nychistory, not just a gateway to advertizements.
Well
Why do people consider the IRT to be the REAL subway, and the BMT as some commuter rail line and never take it even if it is closer for them, the same with the IND for an extent, the Queens Blvd and fulton are "REAL" subway, when people refer to the "flagship" line, they refer to the Lex, and if i tell some one that alot of people use the BMT, they just laugh and tell me to take a 4 home ....
why is the IRT so glorified by the MTA, like on tv shows, when any character in nyc uses the IRT, never the IND or BMT, and on seinfeld they consider the other subway dangerous and full of poor smelly people
what im saying is why is the IRT filled with glory but the BMT just an old dirty workers subway.
i think its that the BMT goes nowhere, if i want to goto kings plaza i take the B9 or the B82, not a subway, i only use it to goto school...
well....?
Why indeed...
>>> why is the IRT filled with glory but the BMT just an old dirty workers subway <<<
I tell you, I just can't get no respect (pulls at knot on red tie)! Even get the mayor chose the IRT to ride to work every day. :-)
Tom
Don't take it hard, boobe ... it's all a conspiracy to smite Fred. :)
I heard that Kevin. Actually it what Long Island Railroad is true then all I have been saying about the TA is correct. They are bunch of boobs. The BMT ruled and still rules in Brooklyn where we can have the subway, and open cut and an elevated all for out taking while on the IRT all you have is the dank underground except for seven stops on the #3. Come to think of it, though, the IRT in Brooklyn does serve one useful purpose in that you can get in touch will all the rats that patrol stations from Utica Avenue on up.
I don't who is feeding you this misinformation, or what impressions you have, but your posting just makes no sense at all. The IRT was indeed the first NY "subway" in 1904, and the first to provide through service connecting Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx (1908). Both Brooklyn (BRT) and Manhattan (Manhattan Railway) had extensive elevated systems at that time as well. The first BRT (later BMT) subway ran in 1915; the first IND subway ran in 1932. All three divisions are indeed real subways. While it's true that many BMT routes in Brooklyn (Brighton, Culver, West End, Sea Beach) can trace their routes back to old 19th century railroads, that fact is that since at least 1920 subway trains have provided service on these routes.
The BMT certainly does not go "nowhere". It has a major trunk line in Manhattan along Broadway from City Hall to Times Square - what could be more New York than that? And if you look at the old routes you'll see that the IRT and BMT had very distinct areas of dominance prior to the IND subway. The IRT was dominant in Manattan above 60th Street and the Bronx. The BMT was dominant in Brooklyn and Queens.
Good answer. I wouldn't know how to answer a post like Long Island Rail Road's. It was just messed up.
Doobie Do, take it from me. We all have those kind of days and when you get older you get more of them. SBF can tell you that from experience.
When you talk about some line not being a "real" subway, I think of something like the Green Line in Boston (Light rail) or the subway surface lines in Phila. or the Buffalo or Portland Light rail.
BMT is a real subway system.
Attaboy Andy, you tell him. Actually LIR was just making an observation from what he perceives, but he can rest assured that when I ride from Mid-town Manhattan and Brooklyn I never give the IRT a thought. To me it is another planet. I have no choice when I have to go to the Bronx which I try not to do.-----HA, GOT YOU ANDEE AND STEF. And you know that was just a joke. I promise to sample some of those good Dago restaurants up around Arthur Stree when I come to the city this summer. Hey, maybe you two can join me.
actually i have lived on the brighton ROW for the past 16 years and recently moved to Long Island and when i had known people who lived in manhattan, they scoffed at the idea of riding anything but the IRT
The people you knew in Manhattan certainly have issues. I can recommend a good doctor...
Well what did you expect from those uppity snobs of Manhattan. There has always been a great rivalry between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and they probably don't like the fact that Brooklyn comes first when they designated the BMT. We went through this all the time when I was a kid. Back then it manifested itself when the Giants played the Dodgers. There the inter-borough rivalry really flamed intense, but most of the time the Dodgers kicked the shit out of the Giants and Brooklyn could thumb its nose at Manhattan.
(most of the time the Dodgers kicked the shit out of the Giants and Brooklyn could thumb its nose at Manhattan.)
Yes, but I have heard legends of a certain home run. And didn't both boroughs end up losing to the Broxn anyway?
Yes Larry, the home run. It killed us literally. It was a long winter but you know what? I went to the 50th Anniversary of the event on March 30, 2001 and had a blast. I met Bobby Thomson and most of the Giants and Dodgers. I knew I would like the Dodgers I met but the former Giants were actually nicer than the Dodgers. Guys like George Spencer, Sal Yvars, Wes Westrum, Don Mueller, and Larry Jansen. We really hit it off. Still, I hark back to my days as a kid when I lived and died with Brooklyn and we did beat the Giants more than they beat us. From 1946-1957 the Dodgers won 142 games from the Giants, while the latter took the Bums 115 times. You can look it up if you don't believe me but you'd just be wasting your time.
Yeah.
"Branca throws...there's a long shot!...I think it's going to be, I believe...THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!...THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!...THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!!....THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!!!...and they're going crazy....they're going crazy....THEY WONNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!"
Leo Durocher maintained he had no memory of that home run. His mind just went totally blank.
And the first thing the TA did when the opened the Chrystie St. connection was to set up a direct link between the Brighton line and ....Yankee Stadium. Heck Rudy Guiliani wasn't even in office when they came up with that one (since he's the most famous Yankee fan from Brooklyn right now who would have used such a link), and the D has now been connecting the Bronx Bombers up with fans in central and south Brooklyn for 35 1/2 years, longer than the D train had gone anypalace else in the years before that following the opening of the IND.
So the post-1967 shift of lines made it harder for Brighton riders to get to the east side of Manhattan, but easier to get to 161st St.-River Ave. You gotta see something wrong in that, Fred.
Yes I see something very wrong with that but unable to turn the clock back and less able to force policy changes I have to see the train that took me to see the Brooklyn Dodgers now going to see the hated Yankees. That's progress, they say. Bull@$%^ on that. Another thing. The Brighton was a BMT Train until the corrosive Chrystie Street fiasco, and now my second favorite line is an IND instead of a BMT. I can also moan about how they took the numbers away from the BMT trains and gave them to the despicable IRT, but since my train carries my favorite letter N I will keep quiet on that for fear the TA will retaliate with a reprisal of their own.
At least the N is still an all-BMT route.
(when i had known people who lived in manhattan, they scoffed at the idea of riding anything but the IRT )
I guess you knew the wrong people. I live in Manhattan. Often the IRT is most convenient for me, so I use it. But often the Broadway line, the Canarsie Line, or 8th Ave line is most convenient, and so I use those too.
I kind of understand what you are saying.
If you live in Manhattan, and you want to get around the city, the IRT is the way to go. Westsiders know that the 1,2,and 3 trains are faster than the IND. Eastsiders have no choice.
For Manhattanites, the 1,2,3,4,5,6 trains are their trains, just like the M,L,and J lines were my lines growing up in Queens. And for many Manhattanites, Manhattan is "the city" and the IND BMT trains are for people from Queens and Brooklyn, who some Manhattanites look down upon. When I dated a girl who lived on 22nd bet Park and 5 she always chose the 6 over the N and R trains b/c they just seemed so slow.
The TV networks have done alot of damage to the image of Queens and Brooklyn. "All in the Family". "King of Queens". "Welcome back Kotter". "Honeymooners". IND and BMT trains are associated with those boroughs.
Overall, I'd say that the IRT is much busier than the IND and BMT. The IRT seems busy all day, while the BMT and IND lines do their thing during rush-hour, but slow down tremendously during non-peak hours. You should see a n/b 4 at Mott at midnight. Packed. And it does not let up until about Bedford Park. I can't imagine any B division trains that are as crowded at that time, while being so far from midtown.
The IRT went in first, and got all the best spots from a customer density point of view. So yes, it is much busier, and that means that it is better off peak because express service is preserved and service is frequent -- shorter wait, faster trip. For those same reasons, however, the IRT is hell at rush hour.
The Queens Boulevard line is the only line that is comparable with the IRT in service and passenger density. Here in Brooklyn, you have to wait, and in the evenings and on weekends you have many, many stops.
(Overall, I'd say that the IRT is much busier than the IND and BMT.)
True, but the effect is somewhat exaggerated by the smaller size of IRT trains. In part, IRT trains seem fuller because they are only 3/4 the size.
Agreed. It only seems that way. Plus, when the second avenue subway comes along, it will be designed in BMT/IND style, obviously not IRT - IRT will never be built again if they need to build another new subway line.
Except for the Flushing line extension, of course.
well, obviously. if they extended it IND style, you're gonna have a lot of passengers falling between the train and the platform ;)
well, obviously. if they extended it [Flushing Line] IND style, you're gonna have a lot of passengers falling between the train and the platform ;)
The gaps probably wouldn't be any worse than the ones that really exist on tracks 1 and 2 at LIRR Flatbush Avenue.
Plus the gap would only be 6 inches. You should see some of the London Underground stations - there aren't just gaps: sometimes it's a big step down into the train.
MAIIIIIIIIIIIIIITHAGAAAAAAAAHH! (As heard on the Bakerloo Line)
Yes, but that's not a NEW subway, that's just an extension of an existing OLD subway. He said no NEW subway will be built IRT-style...
He said no NEW subway will be built IRT-style...
Oh.... I'm not so sure about that.
If we build the Northern Boulevard Line,
then the Flushing Line can be converted to BMT standards and host the (RR) train.
Then the (7) train can follow a new viaduct along the Montauk ROW to woodhaven Bouldvand, and then follow the Rockaway Line to Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park (With access to the rest of the system via the existing tracks to Liberty Avenue.)
This will permint the (A) train to be extended along Liberty Avenue to Supthin Boulevard and then North to Hillside Avenue (Terminating perpendicular to the QB line.
Then the (E) train can be extended through a new line along Pitkin Avenue, past 76th Street then onto Linden Boulevard to the County Lion!
Local Service along Fulton Street would be provided by the (H) train from 76th Street that would pass through Hoyt Schermerhorn (turning north along Clarck Street, thus not touching the Transit Meuseum) and join the Myrtle Fifth Avenue subway via the new four track Pineapple Tunnel thence along Fifth Avenue to 161st Street and Grand Concourse.
Elias
that is unfair to the Bronx, one more IRT line should be built, the (8) line, it will run on 1st or 3rd Avenue in Manhattan as a subway until 116th Street, then elevated from 125th Street (like 1/9 and Metro North) to the end(on Third Avenue or Webster Avenue)
that is unfair to the Bronx, one more IRT line should be built, the (8) line, it will run on 1st or 3rd Avenue in Manhattan as a subway until 116th Street, then elevated from 125th Street (like 1/9 and Metro North) to the end(on Third Avenue or Webster Avenue)
No that's not really unfair. No more lines will be made to IRT specifications (except for my new idea in Queens, of course... but that is only to use the Stienway fro something after the BMT captures the Roosevelt)....
Anyway... There is to be a new Third Avenue Subway, but that will be the logical extension to the Second Avenue line, which will be built to BMT standards.
The Myrtle Fifth Avenue line proposes a new service (two new tracks) along Grand Councourse (non-stop Bedford Park to 161st Street) Making a stop at Moshalou Pky (to connect with the (4) and then East along Gun Hill Road to CoOp City with FAST FREQUENT Service direct to Midtown and Downtown! This line will be the first new line built to standards far and above the existing BMT standards, allowing for computer managed trains making express runs at 80 mph.
Elias
Can you at least wait until I give Bloomie my big donation so he can build the thing? Come on, Elias, there is no 2nd Avenue Subway and I doubt if there will ever be one. Every time I read about that topic I start to yawn. What a bromide.
Building a Second Avenue Subway if far more likely that ever building another line to IRT specifications.
: ) Elias
Esthetically, the IRT has all the better terra cotta work, though the BMT came along early enough to get a lot of excellent mosaic work.
Though the IND seems to be built from an Idenitikit, it has some very good color work; I'd like to see some more IND 'rethoughts' similar to what was done at 161st/Yankee Stadium, where they had fun that never occurred to the original IND builders.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Outside the contract I IRT stations with their Victiorian era over-complicated tile designs, I'd rate the BMT tiles as superior asthetically. Especially at Whitehall St, Union Square, Dekalb Avenue and most stations along the Canarsie line. Montrose Ave is in my opinion the best looking original tile design in the entire system.
the Concourse line was built in tandum with the Washington hts line,and the Queens Blvd/Crosstown. The 8th ave was ''THE'' trunk,the Concourse was a branch,so of course the trunk opened first....
I think he was referring to the recent renovation at 161st Street, not original construction. For all intents and purposes, the Concourse line, even if built a few years after the 8th Ave line does look just like it. I agree with Kevin, the renovation at 161st Street breaks up the standard IND monotony a bit.
The N to Astoria is crowded until past Midnight. All seats taken.
See? That's the difference. To you, a train is crowded if all its seats are taken. To an IRT rider, that's a description of an empty train.
The 1 is crush loaded well after midnight, at least on weekends.
Here's an example of a midafternoon load on a 1 train today. This is not a crowded train.
lol, i've seen worse.
As I said, that wasn't bad at all. The Sunday peak comes a few hours later. I had to stand at 8:40 this morning.
A couple years ago I had to ride the 0457 #7 train from Woodside LIRR to Grand Central, then the 0511 #4 or 0514 #6 uptown to 103 St. to get to my 0600 tour at Mt. Sinai Hospital. Those trains were almost full (the Lex Local was STUFFED). Where are all these folks going at 0500? They can't all be bakers (LOL)...But in fairness to the IND, I've taken the E at that hour as a Queens Blvd LOCAL, and found that train stuffed to the rafters, too. Don't know about the BMT in Brooklyn, though, except that the Eastern Division DOES pack 'em in real good at rush.
Don't know about the BMT in Brooklyn, though, except that the Eastern Division DOES pack 'em in real good at rush.
Very True. The J/M are never really "packed" during the day (usually no seating room, but comfortable standing), but at rush hour they sure are "packed". The L is almost always "packed" - Very little standing room. I've even been on packed L trains at 1:00AM - at least between Union Square and about Montrose anyway.
The whole "packed" definition is very subjective though. It all depends on what one is used to. There is no doubt that most of the IRT lines are "packed" during much of the day, and they carry very large passenger loads, however, the train may sometimes seem more packed than some BMT/IND lines because the cars are narrower. This may also be a reason for IRT trains to almost always seem "packed". An IRT car will seem packed faster than the B Division cars do. Although there still is still no doubt that many of the IRT lines do carry heavy loads consistently.
To someone who rides the Lex during rush hour, an empty train is one where a person who suddenly drops dead while standing will actually drop to the floor.
(To someone who rides the Lex during rush hour, an empty train is one where a person who suddenly drops dead while standing will actually drop to the floor.)
That's the problem with you suburbanites. Yes you pay the same $1.50 ($2.00) to go just a few stops that we Brooklynites pay to ride for miles, and I suppose that's profitable. But the LIRR and MetroNorth dump folks right on the IRT, the worst possible place, at rush hour, the worst possible time. From a marginal (as opposed to average) cost perspective, that's very expensive.
Hence the need to at least build the Stubway if East Side Access is going forward. At least folks on the East Side would have an alternative to an even lower level of hell.
Hey Triple A, so you're girl preferred the #6 over the Sea Beach, eh? I hope you're still not going with her because she sounds like a loser to me. If you still are you have my deepest sympathies.
The TV networks have done alot of damage to the image of Queens and Brooklyn. "All in the Family". "King of Queens". "Welcome back Kotter". "Honeymooners". IND and BMT trains are associated with those boroughs.
Do you mean their portrayal of the subway on these series or the series itself portraysthe bororughs in a bad light?
--Mark
The IRT was the first subway. Maybe that explains it. For years the IRT was neglected (as was the BMT) for the IND, which the city considered it's flagship division.
When the combined forces of the Hylan and LaGuardia administrations delivered the death blow to the IRT and BMT operating companies, the IND spent the next 35 years being the system's "golden child" in the eyes of many who cut their teeth working on the Independent System during its first days. That included not only the fairly logical recapture of the Culver Line from the BMT by the IND for Coney Island service, but also the fairly illogal decision in the 1960s to run two Sixth Ave. services to South Brooklyn over the Manny B after Chrystie St. while at the same time abandoning full-time Brighton service for Broadway.
Other examples include ordering 75-foot cars that were fully compatible with the IND lines but incompatible with about a third of the BMT system, and the hand-me-down railcar status the Eastern Division suffered through for 47 years (with the exception of the rare R-40M/42 train in 1969) between the delivery of the R-16s and the arrival of the R-143s last year.
Ironically, as far as any feelings that the IRT is the "real" subway, the two men mostly responsable for that are the two men mentioned earlier -- William Hylan and Fiorello H. LaGuardia. Hylan's dislike of the BMT and his goal to take passengers away from it (and the IRT) with his new Independent System led the city to build the Sixth Ave. subway line after the Eighth Ave. line, instead of building a Second Ave. subway.
Building the line on Sixth stole passengers from the BMT's Broadway line north of Madison Square, and to some extent it and the Eighth Ave. line also squeezed the IRT Seventh Ave. line out of some passengers, but it left the IRT Lex alone as the only line on the East Side. LaGuardia then compounded that by going on a crusade against the Manhattan els, tearing down the Sixth and Ninth Ave. lines because the IND made them redundant (which they were), while also ripping up the Second Ave. line and its Flushing connection before any new subway was in place.
Once the city finished the job with the cut backs and eventual deomlition of the Third Ave. el in the 1950s, half of Manhattan was left with only one subway option for north-south travel, the 4, 5 and 6 trains. That's why the IRT seems to get more notice, because it serves an area where more people have no other option but the Lex line.
but also the fairly illogal decision in the 1960s to run two Sixth Ave. services to South Brooklyn over the Manny B after Chrystie St. while at the same time abandoning full-time Brighton service for Broadway.
I don't view sending 2 6th Ave services over the bridge as an illogical service pattern. What WAS illogical was the limitation of Broadway/Brighton service to the QB during rush hours, while the Nassau St. QJ/M ran all day long. The logical service pattern would have had the QB running all day on weekdays instead.
This continued belief that the Broadway BMT serves Brooklyn riders better mystifies me. There are advantages and disadvantages to both Broadway and 6th Ave service. The ideal service pattern would spread both services to give Brooklyn BMT riders the choice to use the one which serves them better.
That was my point. When Chrystie was opened, the logical Manhattan Bridge service pattern would have been one Brighton service on each side of the bridge, and one Fourth Ave. service on each side of the bridge. But for whatever reason, they opted to make the QJ the Brighton local and not only force the bulk of the Brighton riders onto Sixth Ave., but also maintain the lopsided bridge load problems on the north side of the Manny B that exisited when it handled the Broadway trains and the south side handled the Chambers/Nassau loop.
As for the service patterns, the main advantage Broadway express service has over Sixth Ave. is at Union Square, where a direct transfer to the IRT East side trains was avaialble. Brighton D riders were left with the Altantic Ave. tranfer option if they wanted to get to the 4 or 5 or taking the QJ to Chambers, while West End B riders had no uptown transfer option to the east side IRT until the free transfer at Pacific Street was created 11 years after Chrystie opened.
Maybe they did think the new W. Fourth-34th St. express tracks would be preferred that much over the 50-year-old B'way express tracks when the decision was made on mid-Manhattan routing, but it came across as hubis about the superiority of the IND routes, which IMHO was not justified.
(As for the service patterns, the main advantage Broadway express service has over Sixth Ave. is at Union Square, where a direct transfer to the IRT East side trains was avaialble.)
And that is definitely used very heavily. It can be very hard in the AM to walk from the IRT to the BMT at Union Square because of the hordes coming the other way.
I suppose the construction of the Bway-Lafayette to NB Bleecker connection will help reduce that.
Downtown it is an easier link (though you have to be on the 6 to use it). But we're talking about what the TA did 35 years ago. Given the choice between the crowded Union Square transfer for Brighton and West End riders to the uptown IRT pre-Chrystie and no transfer at all post-Chrystie, the new service pattern made east side access from those two routes either a double transfer, or a trip through Nassau Street on the Brighton local for a single transfer at Chambers, which was not an option nights and weekends.
As for the service patterns, the main advantage Broadway express service has over Sixth Ave. is at Union Square, where a direct transfer to the IRT East side trains was avaialble. Brighton D riders were left with the Altantic Ave. tranfer option if they wanted to get to the 4 or 5 or taking the QJ to Chambers, while West End B riders had no uptown transfer option to the east side IRT until the free transfer at Pacific Street was created 11 years after Chrystie opened.
I do agree, without the Atlantic Ave/Pacific St IRT transfers, the BMT option into midtown is superior. But that transfer now exists, thus negating any advantage.
The 6th Ave line has the benefits of going directly to 2 major Manhattan destinations the Broadway express bypasses: Greenwich Village (W4th Street) and Rockefeller Center (or 50th Street). It also provides Brooklyn BMT riders with one seat rides to upper Manhattan.
I do agree, without the Atlantic Ave/Pacific St IRT transfers, the BMT option into midtown is superior. But that transfer now exists, thus negating any advantage.
You don't think there's any advantage in access to the IRT local as well as the express? At the same platform, yet?
You don't think there's any advantage in access to the 5 as well as the 4 when the 5 is turning at Bowling Green?
You don't think there's any advantage in avoiding a twisty route through lower Manhattan, especially on the 2/3?
The 6th Ave line has the benefits of going directly to 2 major Manhattan destinations the Broadway express bypasses: Greenwich Village (W4th Street) and Rockefeller Center (or 50th Street).
But the 6th Avenue line doesn't go to the even more major off-peak destinations of Union Square and Times Square. Manhattan Bridge-6th Avenue trains don't stop at 14th Street at all, not even two blocks west of Union Square!
It also provides Brooklyn BMT riders with one seat rides to upper Manhattan.
The D makes three stops in Manhattan north of Columbus Circle: 125th, 145th, and 155th. Those are hardly major destinations to most Brooklynites. You might have somewhat of a point if the D stopped at 81st, but it doesn't.
If Manhattan above 59th Street is the destination of concern, I think most would prefer easy transfers to all three trunk lines that run there, local and express, than direct express service on the least useful of the three.
But the 6th Avenue line doesn't go to the even more major off-peak destinations of Union Square and Times Square. Manhattan Bridge-6th Avenue trains don't stop at 14th Street at all, not even two blocks west of Union Square!
The 6th Ave line has a stop at 42nd/6th, 1 block east of Times Sq. While your point about the IND not stopping at Union Sq. is valid, my point about the BMT not stopping at Washington Square, an equally important stop/transfer point at both peak and off peak hours, negates it.
The D makes three stops in Manhattan north of Columbus Circle: 125th, 145th, and 155th. Those are hardly major destinations to most Brooklynites. You might have somewhat of a point if the D stopped at 81st, but it doesn't
But the B does.
The best service is the one which maximizes the advantages of BOTH 6th Ave. and Broadway BMT bridge routes, since neither alone is superior to the other.
W4 is only an important transfer point within the IND network. In general, the IND is very self-contained. It works great if you're going somewhere on the IND, but most transfers between the IND and the rest of the world are substandard in some way -- either there's a long walk or it's a local station on one of the lines.
And W4 isn't a major destination in and of itself. Union Square and Times Square are, especially off-peak.
And then there's the question of service within Manhattan itself, since not everyone is coming from Brooklyn. Transfers at Atlantic-Pacific are hardly relevant to someone not coming from or going to Brooklyn.
W4 is only an important transfer point within the IND network.
No, it's the only way BMT riders in Brooklyn can access the A/C line into Brooklyn. This was a common practice for many riders before 7/22/01. Remember Chrystie St. riders are coming from the BMT division, not IND.
And W4 isn't a major destination in and of itself. Union Square and Times Square are, especially off-peak
You're 100% wrong on that. It's a MAJOR destination at any time of the day/week, equally as important as Union Sq. It has several popular nightclubs within walking distance.
I highly doubt many Brooklyn-to-Brooklyn commuters went through W4. Most have alternate routes within Brooklyn, some involving buses. Brighton passengers have the Franklin shuttle. (In other words, this isn't a good reason to run the D but not the B into Manhattan on weekends.) 4th Avenue passengers have the (less convenient) 4th Avenue-9th Street transfer. When the Jay-Lawrence connection opens, they'll all have another.
The numbers speak for themselves. W4 has about half the number of annual fare registrations of Union Square. Nightclubs aren't enough to bump a station to the top of the list, I'm afraid.
W4 has about half the number of annual fare registrations of Union Square. Nightclubs aren't enough to bump a station to the top of the list, I'm afraid.
Makes sense. W4 is hardly in a remote area, but it's not in a major employment center, either. Union Square is.
Speaking as an IND rider with NO choice (ie. the F), the BMT does connect to more and better destinations.
First of all, you need a connection to the Lex, the only line on the East Side. The connection for the A/C, at Broadway-Nassau, and the connection for B/D, at Atlantic and Flatbush, occur at a point where the Lex is already jammed, whereas the BMT allows a connection to the less-jammed local at Canal. The F has no connection convenient for Brooklyn riders. Hence, the importance of the new Bleeker Street -- Broadway-Lafayette project.
In west Midtown, the BMT is positioned between the 6th and 8th Avenue lines. Not as good as either with a connection, but better than either without one. And going further uptown, the BMT has better connections to the east side and west side IRT.
The IND really blew it by avoiding inter-connections with the other lines.
Speaking as an IND rider with NO choice (ie. the F), the BMT does connect to more and better destinations
The BMT does have better connections, but does NOT go to better locations. Each line has advantages the other doesn't.
I highly doubt many Brooklyn-to-Brooklyn commuters went through W4. Most have alternate routes within Brooklyn, some involving buses. Brighton passengers have the Franklin shuttle. (In other words, this isn't a good reason to run the D but not the B into Manhattan on weekends.) 4th Avenue passengers have the (less convenient) 4th Avenue-9th Street transfer. When the Jay-Lawrence connection opens, they'll all have another.
That's wrong. It's a traffic pattern I both used often and observerd others using.
The numbers speak for themselves. W4 has about half the number of annual fare registrations of Union Square. Nightclubs aren't enough to bump a station to the top of the list, I'm afraid.
It's still a major location which the BMT does not serve with an express station. I'm trying to show that the 6th Ave line has advantages which the BMT lovers in here merely gloss over.
(I'm trying to show that the 6th Ave line has advantages which the BMT lovers in here merely gloss over. )
You are absolutely right that the 6th Ave line gets you lots of places from Dekalb that the BMT lines don't. The massive office buildings on 6th, 5th and Madison are a good reason for thousands of people to take a 6th Ave train.
People are mostly disagreeing with your supporting points, not necessarily with the basic premise that both lines are important.
Remember also that an early posting in this thread pointed out that in 1967 BMT service from Dekalb was FAR worse than 6th Ave service. No reasonable person suggests reversing that; they just endorse a rough balance between the two lines.
Remember also that an early posting in this thread pointed out that in 1967 BMT service from Dekalb was FAR worse than 6th Ave service. No reasonable person suggests reversing that; they just endorse a rough balance between the two lines.
That's my argument as well, although I still think people are downplaying W4th Street access and the need for weekend service via the north tracks.
(although I still think people are downplaying W4th Street access and the need for weekend service via the north tracks)
You may be right. If someone suggests something as off the wall as no weekend service on the north side of the bridge I just ignore it. Reasonable people would agree both sides of the bridge are valuable at all times and it's just a matter of fine tuning.
I agree 100%
That's wrong. It's a traffic pattern I both used often and observerd others using.
You've observed large quantities of passengers who ride from Brooklyn to W4, transfer to a downtown train on the other line, and ride back to Brooklyn?
Or have you simply observed people transferring from uptown trains to downtown trains?
Is it possible that some of those people have one or both ends of their journey inside Manhattan?
It's still a major location which the BMT does not serve with an express station. I'm trying to show that the 6th Ave line has advantages which the BMT lovers in here merely gloss over.
Of course it does. Each line has its own advantages, even the much-maligned C. Most notably for the 6th Avenue line, it serves the major 6th Avenue office corridor very admirably. But that's hardly relevant outside rush hour.
I've never argued, like some have, that the Chrystie Street connection was a mistake, but for most of the week the BMT is a more useful link.
(And W4 isn't a major destination in and of itself. Union Square and Times Square are, especially off-peak )
(You're 100% wrong on that. It's a MAJOR destination at any time of the day/week, equally as important as Union Sq. It has several popular nightclubs within walking distance.)
W 4th is a major Friday and Saturday night destination (but so is Union Square).
It's a relatively minor destination (as opposed to transfer point) at other times. NYU is probably the major reason for going there other than on weekend evenings. I can assure you from personal experience that the turnstile traffic at Union Square is much higher at all times.
Much of the NYU campus is more easily accessed by BMT (8th Street) or even IRT (Astor Place or Christopher Street).
Besides, most traffic to NYU is probably from the north.
When I went to NYU, the most common stations for my fellow students were W 4th and Astor, more so than 8th. It's a pain to get to 8th from Brooklyn (the dreaded tunnel or the annoying connection at Canal).
Lots of students from all over, including Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, LI.
This could have changed, of course.
You know better than I do. My only experience commuting to NYU was a few months in high school, when I had a volunteer job near the Broadway side of campus. I usually took the M2 down and the N/R back up, since both Astor and the station near my high school were picky about letting me in with my bus pass.
The 6th Ave line has the benefits of going directly to 2 major Manhattan destinations the Broadway express bypasses: Greenwich Village (W4th Street) and Rockefeller Center (or 50th Street). It also provides Brooklyn BMT riders with one seat rides to upper Manhattan.
Only if you're going to the upper west side of Manhattan. If you're headed to the upper east side, until the MTA builds the uptown connection to Bleeker at B'way-Lafayette, the Sixth Ave. line makes getting there a pain in the rump. Conncting via the BMT gives you two options -- Union Square for the IRT local and express trains, or Canal for the uptown local. If you want the upper west side, the BMT has the transfer with the 1/2/3 trains at Times Square.
As for Rockefeller Center, the BMT's 49th-7th station is one block west, which is a better situation than someone trying to get to Union Square from the B or D trains.
As for Rockefeller Center, the BMT's 49th-7th station is one block west, which is a better situation than someone trying to get to Union Square from the B or D trains.
49th Street is a local station. Many important trains skip it.
Passangers who want Union Sq. can use trains using the south side of the bridge. Passangers who want Rockerfeller Center can use the north side. The percentage who want to maximize IRT transfers is small compared to total bridge ridership.
Now they can, but back when Chrystie was first opened (and getting back to my original post) the only direct access to Union Square that Brighton riders had was during rush hours on the QB. That was a stupid decision that made east side access tougher for riders on two of the BMT's four southern lines (Culver excluded), especially with the shifting of the midtown Manhattan buisness distict eastward during the past 70 years. The people who came up with the post-Chrystie routing apparently were imaganiing business patterns as they were around the time Hylan came up with the IND plan in the 1920s, when most of the business district was still downtown (hence the Brighton-QJ routing) and the west side had the lion's share of business, while the east side was predominantly lower income housing.
Hopefully, when the bridge opens up again for full service, we won't see the same mistake again and there will be dual services on both the Broadway and Sixth Ave. express routes.
In my opinioon, since noone used BMT broadway other than brooklyn riders, there should be longer express runs, like eleminating canal and/or union square, thus providing a super express service into midtown
a Q train at 1 am is deserted, but a 4 is crush loaded, this is the differance, the same situation is present in the LIRR, i have taken a 1:46am train to hempstead saturday night, with only one other person on board other than the crew, but after i got to jamaica, i got on the local babylon which was more crowded than the crush-loaded am expresses which are always missing cars because of the lack of extra cars
BUT
when 2nd av is built, this all changes, Q trains going from 125th to brighton beach will be crowded as well
since noone used BMT broadway other than brooklyn riders,
WHAT???
That's what I said. Just in not so few words.
WELL LETS SEE......
which line go into broadway?
the Q < Q > N R W and most of those lines are brooklyn lines, except astoria, and the Q has the most trains anyway so it counts as double and it being an BROOKLYN ONLY LINE
Yeah but I work on 23rd St and sometimes I take the N/R a few stops to the north or a few stops to the south. Depends on my mood, really. So there you have it, a Manhattanite using the Broadway line...to go places in Mahattan.
No, they're all lines that travel between Brooklyn and Manhattan (and, in three cases, Queens as well). Some of their passengers are traveling between Brooklyn and Manhattan or Brooklyn and Queens, but others are traveling within Manhattan or between Manhattan and Queens.
To be sure, in the morning rush, most (but certainly not all!) northbound BMT passengers are coming from Brooklyn, but so are most northbound IRT and IND passengers, since, aside from Brooklyn, the residential parts of NYC tend to be north of midtown, so the rest of us are going south.
But at other times of day, and on weekends, the BMT hosts a very large number of intra-Manhattan travelers.
If you were correct, there would never be any passengers waiting on northbound BMT platforms in Manhattan. If you think that's the case, I suggest you have your eyes checked.
To be sure, in the morning rush, most (but certainly not all!) northbound BMT passengers are coming from Brooklyn, but so are most northbound IRT and IND passengers,
ANd if they were to skip Union Square and Canal Street to make "longer express" runs, where are all these supposed majority of Brooklyn riders supposed to get off? Skirt right through and past some Manhattan's major stops and wind up in Queens?
In my opinioon, since noone used BMT broadway other than brooklyn riders, there should be longer express runs, like eleminating canal and/or union square, thus providing a super express service into midtown
Hold on....even if this ludicrous statement about only Brooklyn riders using BMT Broadway was true, have you ever seen the amount of people that use either Union Square or Canal Street? Why would you want to skip 2 of the MAJOR stops along the line?
"since noone used BMT broadway other than brooklyn riders, there should be longer express runs, like eleminating canal and/or union square"
1. I use the BMT frequently, in both rush hour and non-rush, both express and local, and I don't live in Brooklyn.
2. As mentioned by others, Union Square and Canal have huge numbers of transferring passengers. I also personally know Union Square has a sizeable number of BMT passengers whose trips actually end there.
I'd say that the IRT benefits from having been first.
To me, BMT > IRT
Hope that makes you feel better. IRT is lines are too damn crowded. And there are some BMT station that look much more attracting than some of the IRT ones.
I'm not sure who you're talking to. Either that or I've been gone from New York too long. As I remember it, in Brooklyn it was the BMT all the way and to hell with the IRT. The IRT didn't go to Coney Island, and though it went near Ebbets Field no one I knew ever took it. They took the BMT #1 Brighton Express. From Times Square south into Brooklyn the BMT ruled and as far as I know still does. The IRT was always an afterthought for all those I knew except for those who lived in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. As far as the TA favoring the IRT over the BMT, consider the source.
BTW, I have no ax to grind. The IRT was first launched on October 27, 1904. I was born on October 27, 1940. Get the irony?
As we all know coney island is hardly the destination it used to be and ebbets field is not a destination anymore
Greetings, all...
Some of you already know that I've been corresponding with a very cute lady friend named Jessica who lives in Arizona. I've never actually met her in real life yet, but we've been exchanging e-mails since November and talking regularly on the phone since early February, and things seem to be clicking between us. One thing about her that most people notice right away is that she was born without any arms at all, but is totally independent and does everything with her feet. She has a great attitude about it, and I actually find her particular uniqueness to be very sexy. But anyway...
She and her best friend Shawna are coming out to Philly and NYC for a visit during their spring break. The three of us will be hanging around in both Philly and NYC during the time they're here, but Jessica and I plan to go on a date for just the two of us sometime on Saturday evening, March 15th. We had originally planned to do something here in Philly, but it turns out she'll be staying in NYC during most of her time here.
So... We could do the standard dinner-and-a-movie, but she can do that whenever she wants in Arizona. I'm looking for something that would be more unique to New York City, and hopefully not make swiss cheese out of my debit card. (She likes live theater, but the three of us will -- hopefully, depending on that damn labor dispute -- be seeing "The Producers" on Broadway on Tuesday the 18th.) I already know of at least one very good Italian restuarant up near Columbia University, but I'm open to any suggestions. By the way, she's only 20 years old, so the club scene or any pubs are off-limits.
Oh, and even though we'll most likely be doing plenty of riding on the subways just to get around the city, I doubt she'd be very interested in spending a full evening peering out the railfan window of an R40 slant. (Well, at least not on our first date... I'll have to ease her into that lifestyle gradually.) I've already given her permission to kick me if I start explaining how AC traction works.
Thanks in advance, and wish me luck... I've had plenty of crushes before, and even had a cute girlfriend for a while last summer in Chicago, but this time things just feel different, like there's some real potential... I'll let everybody know how things turn out.
Oh, and in totally unrelated news, I'll be moving from my temporary home in South Jersey to the city of Philadelphia on April 19th. I found a nice one-bedroom apartment in a very beautiful area of Northwest Philly, with Fairmount Park and Wissahickon Valley almost in the back yard. Wish me luck with all that as well, and if anybody wants to come down and do heavy lifting that afternoon in retun for beer and pizza, let me know.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
(Some of you already know that I've been corresponding with a very cute lady friend named Jessica who lives in Arizona. I've never actually met her in real life yet, but we've been exchanging e-mails since November.)
Seems like when you read about something like this in the news, it usually involves one of the people involved getting murdered.
(plan to go on a date for just the two of us sometime on Saturday evening, March 15th.)
Unfortuntately, my two best ideas do not apply. One is the Celebrate Brooklyn outdoor concerts in Prospect Park, but they are only in the summer. The second is the first Friday (or is it Saturday) free open houses at the Brooklyn Museum. In addition to performances and other things, they usually have dancing. We always have a good time when we go, and there does seem to be a "date" crowd coming in as we parents and children are heading out to go to bed. But it is the first Friday or Satruday of the month.
I think I remember reading about similar goings on in some of the major Manhattan institutions -- ie. the Metropolitan Musueum of Art, etc. Perhaps they have it every Friday or Saturday, or at least on the day you are there. This being Manhattan, I'm not sure how cheap it would be.
For what it's worth, I always take visitors to NYC, to Central Park,
a ride on the Tram is cool, especially coming into Manahttan from Roosevelt Island.
A stroll across the Brooklyn Bridge is nice, a ride on the Staten Isl
Ferry, is also nice.
A visit to the top of the Empire St Building.
Bar hopping in the Village, there are some great little places though
out.
If you like Brazilian food, Cabana Carioca on 45th St off of 6th and
Bwy is pretty good.
The Marriot hotel in Times Sq, the bar on the 8th floor rotates in a complete circle in about an hour.
Strolling along Columbus Ave, there are great places to window shop, and just stroll
Of course subway rides are a must, so get a fun pass, and just go!
Enjoy NYC its always great!
Seems like when you read about something like this in the news, it usually involves one of the people involved getting murdered.
Obviously you wouldn't be reading about it in the news if nobody gets murdered.
Dave, check out the Forbes Magazine Galleries, 62 Fifth Avenue (at 12th Street),(212) 206-5548. Take any train down to 14th-Union Square or the F/V to 14th St. and walk just a couple of blocks.
The price is right (free!) and it only takes an hour to see everything - fascinating dispaly of all the model ships and boats the family collected over the decades; toy soldiers; historical Monopoly sets; Faberge eggs; and artwork (interesting display on Napolean Bonaparte when I was there in January).
http://www.theinsider.com/nyc/hidden/004forbe.htm
Dave, I haven't been yet, but I don't know how you could go wrong with the new planetarium at the Nat.History Museum (81st on the CPW), and then you can stay and do the rest of the museum or cross Central Park to the Met. Central Park is a must for an Arizonan. And I never let visitors miss Belvedere Castle, from which you see most of the Park and both sides of Manhattan; it's right on that walk in the middle of the park, and free. Magic. She'll propose to you there.
The planetarium and Central Park sounds like a fun time... Any idea how late the planetarium is open on Saturdays? Of course, doing any sort of extensive walking outdoors will be dependent on the weather.
Thanks,
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I shall run down there and look instanter. Baby Huey, my hiptop, seems to be sending and receiving fine once the blizzards are over and I'm out of the "F" tunnel, and although there are prob'ly a gazillion NYC tourist sites pointing at the NYMNH, this is SO much less confusing and more fun. Lessee, Flatriron to CPW is one change at Herald Sq....
I'm here! Two changes (forgot the D only weekends, changed at Col's circle), came in, the line on a pretty Sun. at 2:30 looks long, was only 3 minutes. $12 for ALL 42 halls, open 10 to 5:45, but the Rose Ctr (for Earth and Space) is open till 8:45. Gorgeous at night. Extra $9 for IMAX add-on which they schmoozed me into. Us RLFV personality types are such pushovers and spendthrifts.
Hey Dave, what subway line did you test out as? Could have a major romantic impact.
They fooled you. That's $12 suggested admission. Actual admission fee is pay-what-you-wish. A penny will suffice if that's all you have handy. I usually pay a dollar or two. Lines are shortest downstairs at the subway entrance.
But that doesn't include the space show, which is something like $21 (required). Not that I see the need to directly support an institution that hired an architect who failed to notice that his building was going in an existing residential neighborhood and that a glass cube clashes. Besides, $21 is a lot of money for one show.
Actually what the small print says is "suggested donation", not suggested admission.
I saw the small print on the way out. I think only the $9 part is required, but it's the Tom Hanks Lite view of the universe. The best palnetarium projector in the world, and we got four seconds of constellations and the rest 3D froo froo. Pay the one dollar (or twelve to impress the date) and see the cool old dioramas and neanderthal exhibits as well. Don't miss the minerals.
Your employer / university may already be on the list of donors to the museum, which could entitle you and your guests to free admission. It doesn't hurt to ask.
--Mark
This is so cool! They've munted all these little acrylic globs around the eight-story Hayden Sphere to show relatve sizes, like "if the Hayden Sphere is the size of the globular star cluster Messier 80, this (bowling-ball-sized) model is the Oort Cloud of Comets."
The woman behind me is going "this does not thrill me."
I'll get back on topic, I promise.
If the weather's nice, and not too cold, I highly recommend a ride on the Staten Island Ferry. Out to Staten Island is nice, but it's the return trip to Manhattan that is SPECTACULAR. Get a nice spot on the left front corner of the boat and you'll see:
The Statue of Liberty
Ellis Island
and of course, straight ahead, the increasingly larger and more breathtaking skyline of Lower Manhattan. The skyline is even prettier at night.
Take the 4 or 5 to Fulton Street and walk among the Colonial era buildings and shops of South Street Seaport if it's not too late.
Good Luck and Have Fun!
Just don't eat anything at South Street--walk to Chinatown instead.
Or take the train to Flushing. You simply cannot beat the ethnic foods there.
Take my Sea Beach to Coney Island and get off at 86th Street. Have a snack at Spumoni Gardens, then walk it off to Coney Island. Play a few arcade games, ride a few of the attractions, and before you leave, if it is open, ride the Cyclone. Even though I have ridden many other coasters, this is still my No. 1 favorite and always will be. After that another walk to cool down, and dinner at Garguilo's close by. Then to top it off take in a Brooklyn Cyclones game. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. I can even advance you a small loan to make it all go.
Yes, very true.
Coney Island is the most affordable (and, in my opinion, one of the most fun) amusement parks around - esp. when you consider all the other things you can do (like the Aquarium and the boardwalk) nearby.
I agree... Coney Island would be perfect, but I suspect everything is still pretty much shut down for the season out there. Hopefully I'll get a chance to take her out there sometime when the weather is warmer.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Hotcha Hotcha Hotcha. Let's celebrate folks. Gary's back from his trip to Mars. Good God, where the hell have you been. You can't like Chinatown that much that you hang out there 24/7. Sir, you've been AWOL. No more of that.
If the weather is good take a Staten Island Ferry ride. It's free and day or night the view is spectacular. Ties in well with a stop at Ground Zero.
Two good areas for inexpensive restaurants:
Along Second Avenues below 14th St: There are a number of inexpensive Polish/Ukranian coffee shops, especially Little Poland on Second betw 12th and 13th, on east side of 2nd Ave. Directly across 2nd Ave. on the west side of the street is Jade Garden (Chinese, and also inexpensive). For Jewish Deli, you can't beat the 2nd Ave. Deli (2nd Ave. and 10th St.).
On the Upper West Side, two good and inexpensive Chinese places - Ollie's (84th and Broadway); Silk Road Palace (Amsterdam and 81st). Both are close to the Musuem of Natural History/Planetarium complex, suggested by another poster.
And for a quick subway ride with a great view - if the weather is good take the #7 from Manhattan to Queensboro Plaza, for a great NYC skyline view between 45th Road and QB Plaza. Get off at QB Plaza to admire the view and the 59th St. Bridge, and then take a W train to Astoria for a quick trip with more good views (such as Triboro Bridge at Hoyt Ave. Station). Then go back to Manhattan.
And to add to my post..forgot to mention that at the Hoyt Ave. station on the Astoria (W) line there is an excellent Greek diner (The Neptune) right at the bottom of the stairs. Classic New York diner menu (that is, everything!).
Oh, and -- duh -- the Roosevelt Island cable car while you're right there. Out of the way and time consuming (I've never done it), but, hey, if the Times says do it for romance, how can you refuse?
But of course!
Gee, I just hope this girl is worth it.
It never hurts to impress...even if she doesn't go for it, the next one might...
Well, a visit to one of NY's Museums (like MoMA, the Museum of Natural History, etc.) is pretty affordable, even for two. You can take her on NYC's official Millenium Trail (the 7 subway) to Flushing Meadows-Corona Park and visit the science museum, or go roller-blading all over the place. Show her the Unisphere (a gift to the City of New York by US Steel Corp. for the 1964 World's Fair). Show her the Museum of the City of New York, in Flushing Meadows, and the Queens Museum (both inexpensive). Explain to her that this was the original site of the UN General Assembly, before it moved to the East River.
Cheap dinner food? All over Manhattan, and you have great Middle-Eastern/Israeli food along Queens Blvd. in the Forest Hills/Kew Gardens area.
Does your girlfriend like nature? Take her to the 800 acres of Alley Pond Park and the Environmental Center wetlands (Bayside or Douglaston stations, LIRR, or the Q12 bus to Northern Blvd just east of the Cross Island).
In Philly, show her the Art Museum. You can even tell her about the 'Sly Stallone controversy at the steps.(Of course, those movies may be before her time).
Good luck, Dave. I know you'll impress her.
"Oh, and in totally unrelated news, I'll be moving from my temporary home in South Jersey to the city of Philadelphia on April 19th. I found a nice one-bedroom apartment in a very beautiful area of Northwest Philly, with Fairmount Park and Wissahickon Valley almost in the back yard. Wish me luck with all that as well, and if anybody wants to come down and do heavy lifting that afternoon in retun for beer and pizza, let me know."
I knew you would do that sooner or later. The Wissahickon is magnificent. Take your girlfriend walking through there.
How far is Wissahickon from Conshohocken?
--Mark
Days o' walkin'.
A long way.
I had no idea...
Good luck with Jessica. If you don't mind that she has no arms, that's great!
I remember seeing a feature story on TV once about a guy with no arms who did everything with his feet. He even drove a car, for Pete's sake! Steered with his left foot and worked the pedals with his right foot. Amazing.
I remember seeing a feature story on TV once about a guy with no arms who did everything with his feet. He even drove a car, for Pete's sake! Steered with his left foot and worked the pedals with his right foot.
That's exactly how Jessica drives as well, except she uses her left foot for the pedals and right foot for steering. And did I mention she has a black belt in tae kwon do? It all sounds pretty incredible to you and me, but it's totally natural for her.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Where there's a will there's a way. I have a (relatively minor) disability--hearing impaired-- but it doesn't keep me from doing the things I want to do...even in spite of many who want to PREVENT me from doing so. I give Jessica a lot of credit. She seems to feel the same way as I do, and overcomes, instead of being overwhelmed. I can say from personal experience, too, that most folks in our modern society are almost criminally shallow, and I commend you for getting to know the young lady, rather than dismissing her out of hand, as I have had people do to me in the past.
Again, Good Luck and ENJOY!
...I commend you for getting to know the young lady, rather than dismissing her out of hand, as I have had people do to me in the past.
Thanks... Believe it or not, her "uniqueness" (I hate to use the word disability, since she doesn't even really consider herself disabled) is one of the things I find most attrractive about her, and it's actually how we came to know each other. I've been an off-and-on member of the Amputee Coalition of America for a few years now because of some volunteer work I used to do, and I've known quite a few amputees... Jessica was featured in an article in the ACA's bi-monthly publication some time ago, and I came across the article last fall, and noticed that it included her e-mail address at the end. I decided to send an e-mail to say hi to her, and much to my shock, she actually wrote back. What's even more shocking is that we haven't run out of things to talk about in the four months since then, and we've become very close friends. The romantic angle is still in its early stages, and I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high, but we'll see. The fact that she lives 2000 miles away is probably the biggest hurdle, but again, where there's a will there's a way.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Now you also have an excuse to ride Amtrak to see her...;-)
Yeah, long distance relationships can be a challenge. Been there, done that.
Nice going, David.
I commend you for getting to know the young lady, rather than dismissing her out of hand
Where are you when we need you, Sigmund?
If we aren't limiting ourselves to the evening, and if the weather is nice, then you might try the one trip my daughter says she would want to a visitor from out of town -- a walk across the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, with lunch in Chinatown. We've done it twice.
Our route is the F to York Street, over the Manhattan Bridge, up Canal a few blocks and then down through Chinatown, and back over the Brooklyn Bridge. I recommend Mr Wong (or Wang) on the west side of Mott Street just south of Canal, a real hole in the wall with good, cheap food.
On the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge you can take the exit down the stairs, rather than the long ramp near the cars and fumes, turn right, go up to and behind the Red Cross building (which the City proposes to be the new emergency "bunker," and you'll find a stairway down to the High Street-Brooklyn Bridge station.
Unfortunately, none of these subway-bridge connections are well marked. I have tried writing suggesting the loop's promotion as a tourist trail, but have yet to make the right contact.
Of course, if you are Downtown anyway, there is the ferry and Ground Zero. You wouldn't to spend the evening Downtown, because it shuts down, especially now, but if you want to show someone the real New York during the day that's it. Perhaps I'm biased because I've spent my entire career in Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. Midtown? Glitz and tourist prices! We don't go there!
Hey, Dave...since you'll be treating her in the Columiba University area, don't forget to take Jessica to Tom's Restaurant, the diner that was the inspiration for the hangout spot for Seinfeld, George and Ellen in the (now classic) TV series.
Yeah, that's already in the works... On Sunday morning the three of us will be going to mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine (where I'm a somewhat-regular parishoner), and we'll probably hit Tom's for brunch afterwards, as it's only a block away. I usually end up eating there whenever I go to St. John the Divine, and it's not a bad place.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Cramped interior, nothing like the TV show...BTW, did you get to do any railfanning in Philly last weekend?
No, I didn't, unfortunately... I had other obligations that weekend.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
For $20 a person, buy advance timed tickets to MoMA's Matisse Picasso Exhibit in Queens...it's the only time this exhibit is showing in North America. Plus, it gives you an excuse to ride the (7), which has good views of Manhattan and stuff.
If she is into art and architecture, the tour of Philadelphia's City Hall is a must, and I think its free. Anyone into that stuff absolutely has to take the city hall tour at least once. Lasts a few hours, then they take you up in the observation deck under the statue of Penn at the top of the tower. IIRC, the tours leave from a room off the passageway between the courtyard and Juniper Street at around 12 noon.
I am not sure if these were mentioned or not:
- the observation deck of the Empire State Building
- a walk around Greenwich Village with a stop at The Olive Tree for dinner (tables made of black slate with chalk "served" and Charlie Chaplin movies playing in the background - don't pass up on the Schwarma!)
- a walk around Times Square
- a horse and buggy ride through Central Park
- the NBC Studio Tour (go to the Times Square Visitors Center on 7th Ave between 45th and 46th streets and look for those "where" or "in New York" magazines - there are usually coupons for the NBC tour. In fact, there's a whole rack of things to do with dollars off coupons for major attractions. And while you're there, e-mail yourselves back a video postcard. Also, HSBC has a bank in Times Square where they will actually put you into one of their rolling billboard ads they show on the jumbotron in Times Square; you'll find it neat to see your picture in lights. And you have 30 days to see it on-line, too, at a URL they will give you. My daugher did it last month; it was hilarious!)
- visit the new Hershey's store on Broadway (and 46th or 47th, not sure, but you won't miss the giant Hershey's kiss near the entrance)
- Mulberry Street is closed on weekends ... if it's not too cold, have a fabulous Italian dinner outside and watch the people go by
- Circle downtown on the NY Waterway Ferry / Watertaxi
- There are free tours of Grand Central weekdays, though I forget what day
Good LUCK! We're all counting on you :)
--Mark
Wow, thanks for all the ideas (same goes for everybody else who had suggestions)... The biggest problem with planning a date in NYC is not trying to find something to do, but trying to narrow down all the choices. I'm sure we'll figure out something.
Good LUCK! We're all counting on you :)
Thanks... You make it sound as if the fate of the universe is in my hands. lol
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Are there any major service changes scheduled for the B division next pick?
Continuing work on the L
Weekend and late night Q by tunnel from Brooklyn to Manhattan (no bridge service).
"Weekend and late night Q by tunnel from Brooklyn to Manhattan (no bridge service)."
Great!! The R142s just got stick on upadted strip maps indicating the circle Q and W at the present locations and now this.......
Da Beastmaster
"The R142s just got stick on upadted strip maps indicating the circle Q and W at the present locations and now this......."
But NYCT scores points for incompentence again, as the new #2 line strip map reads under Park Place: PATH Train. As if NYCT never knew that the WTC no longer exists (only until an interim station opens next year.)
At Borough Hall on Friday night, 6:40PM, saw a Manhattan bound 5 train of R142s coming through. The front and back end signs were diamond 5. The side signs however said Lexington Ave LOCAL rather than EXPRESS, and the automated announcements said "5 LOCAL train." Was this a mistake? Why would the 5 run local, particularly with all of those 6s taking up the local track?
Maybe (1) the announcement was recorded incorrectly, or (2) there is an allowance for #5 local service that the conductor found and used.
Its probably an error in the programming. Unless the TA is planning on having "backwards service day": the rush hour special service runs local instead of express.
This week was a combination didactic/practical class with half the day being operating instruction and half being classroom instruction in signals, rules, and basic electrical concepts. At the beginning of the day it was discovered that the trolley wire was down at BEACON, where the section insulator is. BMT Man (another SubTalker has a face now!) and co. took Line Car 25 out to do a temporary fix. We were only able to practice operating as far as BEACON, but there were five cars on the railroad! These were ConnCo 775, ConnCo 1602 (chartered), Montreal MUCTC 2001, BRT 4573, and Johnstown 357.
We learned about procedures for preparing the cars for service, exiting the barn, switching, radio usage, returning to the barn, and laying up cars. I learned about overhang on sharp curves. I had handle time on three different cars, and discovered each one has its own unique properties. We practiced how to make smooth accurate stops.
In class, (the class is now 10, up from 8) we learned how Sparky got his nickname, what to do in case of derailments, how to behave safely around high-voltages, the meaning of the different signals, and the Book of Rules. We also were taught priciples of interacting with visitors and how to conduct the tour.
4573 wasn't so bad in the fine upper '40s temps, but that second series point does stick a bit. 2001 will throw you through the windshield if you come down on the air too much...really sensitive brake handle. Likewise 4573 has brakes that will think about it a few seconds, then apply, while I liked operating 775 the best. It just seems to want to be easy. Still haven't seen 1689 yet, though...;-)
How is 1602? Did you get to operate it? That's the latest car they just finished renovating. I saw it in the barn when they were doing the finishing touches. The interesting thing about that car is the seating. The seats all face the aisle, like IRT cars.
1602 looks GREAT! We couldn't operate it because it was on a charter (birthday party) but the shop folks really did a superb job on the car. Maybe it'll be up on SubTalk Sunday and maybe I'll get handle time on it during the class, we'll see. Again, the car is in tip-top shape. :-)
^^^"Maybe it'll be up on SubTalk Sunday and maybe I'll get handle time on it during the class"^^^
CONNCO 1602 is now the Party Car at BERA. It did its first official
trip as such on Saturday. It's reserved for parties only. It will
be available for viewing on SubTalk Sunday, because we also have
a party along with the SubTalk Charter.
While, we're on the subject of the SubTalk Charter, will all who
are attending please email this poster privately, so we can have
an estimated count as to attendees. trolley687@aol.com Thanks.
Car 1602 will not be used for training purposes, since it operating
characteristics are identical to Car 775.
8-) ~Sparky
I brought 1602 out of the barn in the morning and didn't notice any problems but both Sparky and Lou ran her on the main and weren't happy with the way she ran. I presume they will file a report with the Master Mechanic so the issues can be addressed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1689 is hibernating for the winter, I would imagine.:)
Next Subway Days at BERA is in May. She'll have awakened from her slumber by then. ;-)
1689 is like the OTHER Arnines and us upstaters. We LAUGH at the cold and the snow. After all, it was Arnines that kept the LIRR running for a while there around 1970 as well. :)
"... 1689 is like the OTHER Arnines and us upstaters. We LAUGH at the cold and the snow ..."
At BERA we tell that Arninie to stay inside while Plow 3152 does the laughing < grin > Seriously, 3152 earned her keep this year. She piles the snow real nice against the barn doors < grin >
Heh. DOES serve to keep the kiddies out. You also know "barn door? NO PROBLEM" as far as 1689 goes. :)
I tell ya though, all winter long, I've had nightly dreams about that roto-sweeper running up and down the road here to stave off the need to rent so many frontloaders this year. But them Arnines were tough old birds for railcars not really intended to be exposed to the elements.
The BMT standards laughed at the cold and snow, too. Kind of like Steve Allen's high-pitched laugh in his classic Big Bill Allen breakup.
First out Track 51, have they covered yard track numbering yet?
If so, lunch time I'll let you in the barn if you want to see her.
The LowV and R17 are on Track 53 (that is a short track only hold two IRT cars wall to anti-climber to anti-climber to anti-climber to barn door. Tight fit.
I don't have the key and you don't have the time to see the hi-v or black car.
For those of you coming or interested, I have updated that page with the following:
Slight itinerary page
Cherry Blossom Contingency Itinerary posted
Walking distances for both cherry blossom locations
Please click here for more information.
P.S. to Dave if you read this, no need to change the Upcoming Events page. Thanks!
Back on 08 February I had the opportunity to take a couple of pictures of the retired Staten Island Ferry Mary Murray and have finally gotten them back from Kodak (lost in the mail en route to Kodak, lost in the mail on the way back - and I'm less than 50 miles from the lab) and gotten them scanned and uploaded. These pics were taken from the shoulder of the northbound NJ Turnpike truck lanes where it crosses the Raritan River, just north of exit 9 - the first at the beginning of the bridge and the second at the end of the span. Click on the thumbnails for a larger image.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Poor Mary! And Miss New York too, wherever she is. Oh well, she's now 65 years young, and hasn't seen the harbour in ages - she was retired when I was going back & forth to SI and that's 1974-75. I remember seeing her at a pier at Stapleton.
My 9th Grade Algebra teacher was named Mary Murray.
wayne
The Miss New York is sunk on the jersey side of the hudson south of the GWB. It is partially visible and I believe the pilot houses are above the water
I bet there is a good story behind that. Do you know it?
From what I heard, It was retired around 75 or so and became a restaurant in Bridgeport, CT. After a few years, It was closed. The ferry was tied up in the Hudson on the Jersey side, either for renovations or abandonment, I don't know for sure. One winter, The River froze over and a tug that was breaking ice near the ferry inadvertently pushed ice floats into the ferry which started a slow leak. From what I was told, People noticed that it was taking on water too late. As soon as the water reached the level of the car deck, that was it. Down she went. I remember on Good Day New York a few years ago they dived into it. Interestingly enough, Several other Staten Island Ferries are still around. The Verrazzano is tied up, abandoned and decrepit, in Erie Basin. I was given access to it 2 years ago and believe me, it was scary. But I did climb all over it. (Sorry, No pics) The Cornelius G. Kolff and the Pvt. Joseph F. Merrel were used as dorms at Rikers Island. Recently, I saw one of them tied up on the Bayonne side of Arthur Kill. (Not sure which since the name was removed) Most windows had bars and gates at the end from Rikers. I have no idea what they are doing with it. As far as I know, The other one is still at Rikers. Although no longer used. For more info on the Staten Island Ferry, Check out WWW.SIFERRY.COM.
-Mark
Thanks!
Still there, amazing....I remember seeing her there in 1981. I did get to ride on her in the 1960's, before she was retired when the Kennedy class boats arrived.
The Mary Murray, Gold Star Mother and Miss New York survived the arrival of the Kennedy Class boats for several years. Their arrival in 1965 resulted in the scrapping of the Knickerbocker, Dongan Hills, Thompkinsville and the original American Legion.
Nice photos. I'm glad you got them.
---Brian
I heard that ther is a five car set in coney island yard is this true,
and if so why?
There is a set in Coney Island Yard. I saw it on Saturday, March 8, while riding in a car (yeah, a car) on the Belt Parkway. It's either four or eight cars, since the R-143s don't come in five-car units and the R-160s aren't in anything resembling solid form yet. As to why it's there, it could be any number of things. Perhaps someone here KNOWS THE ANSWER and will be willing to share it with us (since I don't know the answer, and obviously there IS an answer, there's no point in my speculating).
David
If there's a five car set of either in Coney that would be really news, especially the not-yet-built R-160s.
Now if there's a five car set of R-142s at CI, that would make a little more sense, especially if they're planning to do some more Flushing line testing, for whatever reason.
R-143s have to go to Coney Island for major shop work. Could be any number of reasons.
Could be:
a) the rest of the CBTC Test Train (8117-8120).
b) all or part of the Siemens Test Train (8205-8212), which uses the Sea Beach Line for test runs.
c) an R-143 set needing an "environmental unit" change-out. They need the shop crane for that one.
d) all or part of the train which had serious roof leakage during the heavy rainstorm in late February (8289-8296 I believe).
e) An R-143 at Coney Island for any old reason deemed necessary.
As is always the case, numbers would be very helpful.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
i think it was about 2 or 3 weeks ago,i saw R143#8289-8296 going to
coney island,i saw them 1st at ENY yard waiting for the j train i was on to pass.i got off at marcy av and those cars pass by.
til next time
Looking southbound at a northbound (1) switching from the express track to the local track north of 125th St. Photo taken at 3:37pm.
Take Pride,
Brian
You beat me to it. Great shot!
Notice, everyone, that NB trains are stopping at the NB platform at 137th. GO transfers are being distributed.
On the midnights trains are wrong railing NB through 137.
Do you have exact (or even approximate) times of the first and last trains? I might go up and check it out tonight.
Weren't trains wrong-railing all day last weekend?
I can only offer one data point: at about 6:00 PM last Saturday, trains were operating on their normal platforms at 137. You could get a transfer from the booth clerk on the N/B platform, but this wasn't immediately obvious; most people didn't bother, crossed the street, and walked through the wide open service gate on the S/B side.
The wrongrailing doesn't affect me so I don't know.
It would be impossible to do wrong rail moves on a 6 min. headway.
The last time this came up everyone insisted that wrong-railing would be no problem at a 6-minute headway. I was skeptical.
The first NB train needs to take a call-on so that it can wrong rail into the station (proceeding at 10mph until station stop is made), then proceed over the switch north of 137 (can't remember if it is a call-on) at 10mph. Switch cannot move until NB train clears switch on M track, TW/O throws switches timer winds down SB train moves into station, after leaving station SB train has to clear proper signals before call-on is displayed for next NB train.
All that needs to be done plus explanation to the passengers that
"Yes this is an uptown train even though we are on the downtown track".
Here's one of my shots, taken a few seconds later:
Nothing like being at the right place at the right time.
Hmmm, that looks familiar....great shots guys, I'll have to wait for mine...they're still in my camera....I guess I need to go digital soon.
Thanks for a fun day, I really had a good time!
I had a great time too. I'll be posting a page of 54 of my 114 decent shots in a few minutes.
---Brian
Nice shot. There aren't too many pictures showing trains going through switches.
Thanks. I figured that showing the train going over the switch was the only way to prove that this wasn't just some "out of service" (1) train being stored on the express tracks. It is also just a cool shot.
---Brian
Okay, another one of my comparison threads. What are the major differences? Also, what lines do they usually run on?
R44 --> exclusively on the A
R46 --> F, G, R, V, Grand St. Shuttle and a 1% chance you'll see it run on the E
R68 --> B, D, Q, Franklin Av Shuttle and sometimes once in a while, W and N
R68A --> W line, and sometimes once in a while, N, Q
R68s have shiny interior walls that are like funhouse mirrors. R68A interiors aren't as shiny. R46 and R44 do not have interiors with shiny walls.
R44 cab doors are hinged. R46 cab doors are sliding. R44's feature a small partition on the seats by the door aisles. R46s don't have this. R44 manufactured by St. Louis Car Co. and the R46 was manufactured by Pullman Standard. R44s have a carbon steel stripe on the side that's painted silver (it used to be painted blue) while the R46 doesn't have such a stripe.
Doors on the R44 and R46 close slightly differently.
If I neglected to include something or if I made an error, please correct.
R-46s are having their ends repainted silver. Looks real funny since they paint over the nuts and bolts which used to be "rusty," and never were the same color as the rest of the car ends, even when new. At least I don't think so.
Are R46 better or R44?
Yes. They don't have a rusty waistline.
---Brian
The R46's, after a very troublesome beginning, are very reliable mechanically. The R44's are considered by most transit professionals as the most troublesome cars in the fleet.
"The R44's are considered by most transit professionals as the most troublesome cars in the fleet."
I would disagree. Transit folks will tell you the R68's posed a lot more problems than the R44s did, and were more sloppily manufactured (due primarily to lack of communication between carbuilder ANF Industrie of Paris, which is a subsidiary of Bombardier, Quebec, and Westinghouse, which built the motive side of the cars.
The R44's introduced a lot of new stuff in a lot of new ways (the p-wire, for instance) and some of the trouble with them was the TA's fault, not the manufacturer's.
I was talking about an overall history. The R68's are now the most reliable cars in the B division. The R44 remains a mechanical pain in the ass. The R46's early history may have been worse than both of them.
"The R68's are now the most reliable cars in the B division."
A testament to the TA's maintenance department. But they are also very handsome cars, worthy of NYC service.
"The R46's early history may have been worse than both of them."
The R46 came with the same new technology (albeit some lessons should have been learned) - and then there was the Rockwell truck fiasco. Well-intentioned new technology, but a failure nonetheless.
"The R44's are considered by most transit professionals as the most troublesome cars in the fleet."
This is very true. Because the R-44 has the (bastard) Westcode brake system & RSU Knorr compressors, the cars are plagued with air and brake problems. Add to that the structural problems and it's no wonder that the R-44 is being considered for the first B division car to be scrapped (ahead of the R-38s).
This is the first time I've heard this. I hope it becomes a reality.
That's your favorite cab, eh Bill :-)
I hated R44s when I was 6 years old because they did not have railfan windows. They are okay with me now.
It is sad to see them get deteriorated.
Chaohwa
It is true that I am rather biased! The only t/o who can be comfortable operating those things is someone 4'11" and 100 lbs. soaking wet! A few weeks ago I was relaying the R44's at Howard Beach due to a GO, I also had to lay one up to Pitkin Yard when it was all over. I had to stand to the left of the console and reach far to the right and lean down to operate them. Of course, if I ever have to operate them on the road, I would have to take off my bulky coat and see if I could lower the seat as far as I could so my gut wouldn't be in the way to swing the controller around.
In one report, it was stated that the R-38 would be the first to be scrapped - once the R-143 fleet was fully operational. The R-38 fleet does show its age despite GOH. However, there are problems with the R-44 that are operationally problematic.
The major problem is the Westcode air brake system. While all other NYCT SMEE cars use 110 PSI of brakepipe air, the R-44s use 135 - 150 PSI. If you compare a 4-car link of 44s and 68s you'll find on the R-68s there are 3 compressors for 4 cars while the 44s only have 2. The R-46s also have just 2 compressors for each link but use only 110 PSI for brakepipe. There has been a suggestion floated that a third (D-4) compressor be added to each R-44 link. The compressors are available from the reefed cars but no decision has yet been made whether to make the sizable investment to upgrade the cars, who's life span is already in question.
NO!
No 75' car should be retired before the last 60' car is a pile of scrap metal. Don't do this to me!!!!
Sorry, most subtalkers agree, the R44 is a worthless pile of junk, that it's amazing they lasted this long. Considering I remember the MDBF on the R44/46's were less than 10,000 miles when they were introduced in the early 70's, some barely made it to 5,000 miles.
Don't lump the reliable R46 with the troublesome R44
I disagree with your belief on some consensus here that the R44 sucks. There is a large number of us who love the 75' cars.
I never would dump the R46, they are fast, and have a very good track record in maintenance. But when the R46's came out, they were very troublesome back then, the truck bodies and wheels falling off, that was the intent of my original post.
I do prefer the R68/R68A as the better class of the 75 footers than the R46. The unusual glass on the RF windows on the R68(A) makes it a nice illusion of seeing double and triple.
same problem on the railfan window on R142/R142A, everything gets distorted through the glass. you can see, but there is a blur.
I know. Same thing when I was looking out the front in a Canarsie R143 train.
Do you seriously expect the R-44 to outlast the R-143?
OK, all 60' cars from the R42 back.
Smarty pants ...
My opinion on this contrasts with yours. I say Brightliners forever. And another car class bites the dust. Now, what about those R46s, hmmmmm.... None, before or since have been made like the Brightliners. None. Built by The ---Budd--- Company.
Too bad for us Budd chose to leave the railcar business. But life moves on.
It really is. A lesser too bad is that the TA did not put in subsequent orders to them. They wouldn't be in the position of having to replace worn out cars for, who knows, another 20 years or so.
"A lesser too bad is that the TA did not put in subsequent orders to them"
It is unrealistic to expect the TA to continue ordering the same model car. Budd would have had to design a new car:
1) The Brightliners were of 1950's and 1960's design, and it was not clear they could routinely operate at the speeds the TA wanted for its 63rd Street and Second Av lines (hindsight about not building those lines is always 20/20).
2) A 1974 federal law mandated that new equipment be adaptable to the handicapped, and the Brightliner was not (this predated the 1990 Americans With Disabilities Act).
3) Graffitti was becoming a serious problem in the 1970's and the R44-46 represented an important design change that helped to fight it.
Did Budd design a new car in response to the Request for Proposal for Contract #R44? I recall reading that they did. Did Budd lose this competition to St. Louis Car and Foundry?
yep... Low bid was the call for the day.... St louis knew they would lose money on the contract... but they chose to take it anyway ,with their hopes up to get the larger R46 contract already in the works....
As much as I like the R44, I say scrap it. Make sure it goes before the R40. Everything, then the R40 will be ok, and the last to go of course the 32.
yeah right like that will happen... but I can dream, can't I?
I have the same dream.
Ahead of the R38? I would send the R40 Slants first, then the R38s and the R44s. Hold on to those Brightliners as long as you can, those have almost no rust on them. Have you seen the R38 roofs (414x cars notwithstanding), and the R40 Slant roofs, with tape on the roofs?
If it is scrapped, the TA will get the bonus of additional flexibility in a 60' car replacing a 75' car, at the cost of hanging on to older rolling stock (but if working well, not so bad, eh?)
Pretty sad really - the 44's had JUST started arriving on the property when I hit school car, got to step inside one and do a back and forth to get the feel of one, but got told flat out that I'd have to be way high up on the list before I'd actually GET one. I remember listening to them wheezin' and sneezin' in the yard when I'd climb up onto my wrecks in the morning with an overwhelming feeling that they were cheezy. And a few of them had body sags when they were brand new. 46's came along a year or two later, after I'd left.
They were nice in the summer though. :)
The fleet order I really like to see scrapped when the R160's come rolling in:
R44 (BURN THOSE SOB'S TO THE GROUND, DON'T EVEN BOTHER REEFING THEM.) They will comtaminate the fish and other underwater life. The WORST cars IMO.
R38 Well run, but very bad chrome steel roofs, make this a prime candidate for scrapping.
R42 Aging roofing and maintenance will at least have these cars hold out until the Option order is called upon.
R40 (both Slant and Modified) same as above, very good A/C, but door problems plague these workhorses. A few of these and the R42's should be considered to converted to work cars for the "C" division.
R38 One of the largest fleets (and the greatest fleet in existence today.) Imagine how many people would turn out if NY Div. of ERA holds a fan trip on these stainless steel beauties in 2007 or 2008.
It think you meant R-32 in your last paragraph.
Whoops!! You are right, it is the R32 fleet.
I'd love to see a Slant converted to a work car ;)
Yeah that would be interesting. However, usually only IRT cars make it to work service because they are more flexible and can run on both the BMT/IND and the IRT.
Me too, but in 50 years from now. Not anytime soon. They must continue to run in revenue service for many more years.
I thought the R32's will be retired in 2012.
You made my day, TD, thanks. My beloved Brightliners will be around all that much longer.
Also, the R68 #1 end cab doors are hinged, while the R68As slide. In the R44, there are 3 seats between doors 1 and 16 and the T/O//C/R booth, while the R46s only have 2. Exteriorwise, the R44s have a carbon steel stripe that on some cars is peeling away on some cars. The R46s do not have this.
Also, recently R46s have been sheeding one of those 2 seat sets next to the cab for ADA accessability. Haven't seen many lately, so its possible the TA gave up. The hack job makes it look like someone stole the seat.
To my knowledge, only one R-46 had seats removed for ADA. I believe its original number was 630...don't remember what number it is now.
David
The Rockaway Park Shuttle also operates R44s exclusively.
R-44s and R-46s are A-B-B-A trainsets, R-68 and 68As are all single units (as built). Also the door chimes on R-44s were different from those on R-46s, as these were "proprietary" sounds of the manufacturers. Also the original end destination signs on R-44s were different than 46s, the 44s having the letter inside a white circle on a line-color background. The R-46s came with solid-bullet end signs.
R-68s have small windows at all 4 corners of the car, while R-44/46 only have them at the operating end, on both sides of the car. R-44 and 46 came equipped with the combination Cineston controller/brake handle. R-44/46 cabs are permanently full width, R-68 cabs can be folded to half width, (freeing the RFW!). The R-44/46 were the only cars to run in the NYC subway with the faux-wood veneer on the walls, and NY State seal as "wallpaper".
Dare I mention that at the beginning, some R-44s had carpeting? Or that the R-46 Rockwell HPT-2 trucks delayed the scrapping of the last R-1/9 cars and played hell with car assignments into 1982? Well I won't go there...(snicker)
The R68's are four car linked trainsets.
He said "as built", which is true. They were later permanently attached using linkbars to form 4 car sets.
not true.the 68's end cabs dont not fold. one end has full cab,the other has a half cab......same for the 68a's. The 62/62a's are the ones that can be made into full or half cab cars.
The R68's on the Q never break down and have the smothest ride in the system, in my opinion at least
the fact that you cant walk from car to car and the railfan window is the only bad things about the car
and their acceleration when on the express is great but you cant feel it like the slants, it is smooth and gentle
"The R68's on the Q never break down and have the smothest ride in the system, in my opinion at least
the fact that you cant walk from car to car and the railfan window is the only bad things about the car
and their acceleration when on the express is great but you cant feel it like the slants, it is smooth and gentle "
This is a testament to the hard work the TA put into making the originally
"lemon"-like R68 run well. Bravo to the maintenance shops!
It's funny, I always considered the R68's to be one of the most relliable class cars in the system. I never hear anyone complaining about them before, unless they had problems at the beginning. They are certainly not my favorite trains, but I do have to give credit where credit is due, and at this point, I think they earn their keep pretty well.
On 44's & 68's you can fold the seat you can stand and operate
the train on 46's you can't.
With those seats why would you? Every time I was ona 46 I wondered how my T/O stayed awake, IMO those were tho most comfortable cab seats (couldn't get the TA to transplant a 40's seat into the cab for me).
Another major difference between the R44s and the R46s, R68s and R68As are the arm rest at the window seats. On the R44s, the arm rests are nothing more than carved out rectangles that is very uncomfortable on the biceps, wearas the other 3 classes of cars, the arm rests are designed so that your whole arm fits (at an angle of course).
link
Interesting. Lower Manhattan looks sort of like "Emerald City" in the background. The current view is very recognizable even in that old photo as the skyline was raised (and unfortunately also fell) over the years.
The roadway is amazingly clean (and not crumbling).
I'm sure this is asked and talked about many times, but I must ask anyway: How do you download this program since the entire website is in Chinese, does it cost anything, and what does it require from your computer?
The program is Japanese and download this program just by clicking here
It's 100% Free and requires a little amount of space from your hard Drrive.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
And, for great NYC routes, go here.
Thanks! One problem however, it says Table String Error when I click on it, after I d/l it, I go to setup but then how do I open it?
Yo Download Routes from my website or you can Download Routes and Trainsets from my friend's website here.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Look on that BVE site for a "STRING.INI" in "English" ... the original is in Japanese, there's a replacement in ENGLISH that you replace the original copy with in the same folder where BVE.EXE is and that'll go away. Mackoy's got an ENGLISH version of the BVE thing that should have had the correct STRING.INI file ... but that short file is available separately.
List:
If anyone notices either a New Technology Train making a deadhead run (e.g. glorified fantrip) or a group of TA types with vests guiding visitors around by the hand (pun intended), that would probably be a "delegation" from the Chicago Transit Authority, who should be in town this week or soon after to learn all about the R-142/142As and R-143s.
CTA is designing specs for its new generation of equipement to replace 1969-70 2200-series Budds and 1976-79 2400-series Boeing "L" cars.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
And why, exactly, would Chicago try to learn from New York about cutting-edge transit technology? Whatever one might say about the New York subway, it is not known for its leadership in adopting new ideas. That died with the BMT.
"And why, exactly, would Chicago try to learn from New York about cutting-edge transit technology? Whatever one might say about the New York subway, it is not known for its leadership in adopting new ideas. That died with the BMT"
It's not really cutting-edge technology they're after. It's practical, working, day-to-day expertise in a complex route web, maintenance shops, etc. that no other transit system in the world can offer. The R142-43 technology was employed in the Boston T's Red Line cars in the 1990s.
But even Boston doesn't employ them the way NY does.
Why aren't the CTA replacing the 1980-88 Budd 2600 cars yet? I thought they were?
The 2600 series cars just received a mid-life overhaul. They were grey, red, white, and blue before the overhaul. Now they are plain silver with a black CTA logo on them.
The cars were also majorly overhauled and look and operate 100% better then before the renovation. Before the renovation they would break down during a snow-storm because the electrical systems were partially exposed, now they are covered. As stupid as that sounds it is true. The cars were originally designed to operate poorly and looked very stupid with the grey/red/white/blue paint scheme. Now they operate much better and look nice. In my opinion they looked old and dirty before the renovation. Now they look nice and shiny in plain silver.
For exact details, go to chicago-l.org and look under news archives. He has many news articles that detail the whole renovation and even say specifically when which cars were taken out of service and when which were returned.
Now these cars operate very well and in my opinion can easily last atleast another 20 or so years.
You were probably just fooled by the contrast between the look of the un-renovated cars with the look of the new ones. The 2200's are another story. They operate very well, but with handicapped accessibility and bikes allowed on trains now-a-days, they could use to be replaced.
(CTA is designing specs for its new generation of equipement to replace 1969-70 2200-series Budds and 1976-79 2400-series Boeing "L" cars. )
Here's hoping they use the same specs to cut costs. Next best thing to having the CTA develop the specs and us ride on their backs. It would be nice to have a standard for a couple of decades -- it would cut costs.
Can I tag along ?....Pretty pretty puleeze ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Get in line - I'm foist!! :)
--Mark
How do I identify a M-2 from a M-4/M-6? Also, what are the differences?
M-2s are made by GE, and come in 2 car pairs. M-4s are made by the Tokyo Car Company, and come in 3 car sets. M-6s are made by M-K, and also come in 3 car groups. Best idea is to look for a builder's plate.
I don't know if the propulsion packages changed between cars, though I doubt the M-4 and M-6 were delivered with the same ones as the M-2s had when new (The M-2's were probbably the last ignitron MUs built by anyone, though they got converted to SCR a while back).
As far as ride, the M-2s seem the best, the M-4s the worst, and the M-6s are in between. The M-4s also hum a bit under accelerationm and that's annoying at times.
The M-2 can run on 25hz, but the M-4 and 6 can't, AFAIK.
IIRC, the M-2s are the lightest in the system, the M-4's might have been the heaviest, I had the weights somewhere around here...
What about diffences on the outside?
The number boards. The series are in 3 distinct number groupings.
If you see a car with no windows on the west side between the doors, that's an M-2 bar car, and the car attached is therefore also an M-2.
The M-6 are newest, so a lot of them are much cleaner-looking than the rest.
In any event, the exterior differences are likely to be subtle, and unlike the subway they tend to pass much too fast for one to detect anything of significance.
Some have door chimes instead of bells... have no idea if that is significant here, but I'll guess that at least the M-6s have the chimes, don't know about the M-4. Until your post I always thought the M-4s were in pairs.
Hi all,
I'm done with St. Louis route map and I need some help with it's track map especially yard/shop area trackages in St. Louis. Feel free to check for any errors (e.g. spellings, switches locations, etc...)
E-mail me privately and I will file attach a DRAFT COPY. Please, only for those who really knows St. Louis! If you don't know much about St. Louis light rail, please wait till Dave Pirmann post final track map soon!
Thanks in Advance!
Michael Calcagno
We’ll offer a cheer for fare increases on New York City’s subway lines. After all, if the municipal government had let the fares increase to market rates in the early part of the last century, we wouldn’t have the inefficient, city-run, cash-bleeding system we have today. But we’ll limit ourselves to one cheer, because with the system entirely in government hands, it’s impossible to know what a real market rate is.
Link to full editorial
I give it one cheer also. We need the subway. The people running it aren't gonna change anytime soon. So we might as well just pay up and enjoy our cushy subway lfestyle.
Anytime you forget just how cushy it is, come out to Kansas City and do a two week vacation here without a car.
No thanks :)
I'm not surprised the Sun wrote this, but they're also right.
I love the hidden anti-government insults in lines like this:
"As with any government-run system, the MTA has had its ups and downs."
The implication being that, of course, privately-run systems only have ups. Ha!
But they do have a point -- albeit 85 years too late to make a difference -- Mayor Hylan's decision to block fare increases in the years following World War I, when the U.S. inflation rate made the 5 cent fare no longer viable, set the BMT and the IRT on their course to the eventual takeover by the city.
Would the subways still be in private hands if the higher fares had been approved back then? Who knows, it's like stating the case against rent control (which I'm sure the Sun would also do) -- if it never had been passed after World War II would there be enough additional new housing in New York to make up for the higher market rates that prime housing locations would demand? There's no way to be sure, which is why the free market-regulated market debate never ends.
But they do have a point -- albeit 85 years too late to make a difference -- Mayor Hylan's decision to block fare increases in the years following World War I, when the U.S. inflation rate made the 5 cent fare no longer viable, set the BMT and the IRT on their course to the eventual takeover by the city.
Would the subways still be in private hands if the higher fares had been approved back then?
There was a discussion of this some time ago. As best I recall, the consensus was that the BMT and IRT would have remained private at least until the 1950's, although probably not much beyond that decade.
That's probably close to the truth, going by the problems the private bus companies like Fifth Ave. Coach had around the same time. At best, the IRT and BMT might have made it another decade, but would have gotten nailed by the combination of late 60s inflation rates and the overall strength of the New York City labor unions in the 1950s and 60s, which would have mandated higher contracts (which, of course, eventually ran afoul of the law of unintended consequences).
Whenever you see an editorial writer or hear a talk show host talk about 'market rates' you may infer 'screw the public, let 'em eat cake'...
If the market truly ruled rents and fares, I'd have to move to Peoria.
Got that, Sean Hannity? William Tucker? Sun editorial writer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
A silly attitude. If market pricing is applied to all forms of transportation, then driving suddenly becomes very, very expensive. Yes, you'll pay a bit more to ride the subway, but your taxes will also drop substantially (since you won't be paying for highways in Peoria). I strongly suspect that most NYC residents would come out far ahead in such a system.
Of course, I don't know if this is the Sun's attitude -- I post links to articles because I think people would be interested in reading them, not because I agree with them.
If the market truly ruled rents and fares, I'd have to move to Peoria.
I don't know if that's entirely true. I don't want to get into a discussion about rent control/stabilization here, but I truely believe that one of the reasons many of the neighborhoods in New York look the way they do/have looked with abandoned buildings, etc, is because of the surpressed rent market. The very people that it is supposed to help, are the people it hurts. When the rents are left artificially low, landlords have no incentive to maintain buildings, and builders have no incentive to add new buildings to the housing stock. This in turn leads to the housing shortage and also leads existing housing in older neighborhoods to fall apart and few new units to be built, and many people living in squalor in old run down buildings. It's supply and demand, if there are many rentals to choose from, people would have a choice, and landlords could not ask ridiculous rents, because the tenant would just choose a different apartment. It's when there is a shortage of rentals that rents become insane, which is exactly the problem New York has.
Mandatory transit mention - just take a ride down Brooklyn Broadway on the J train. Yes, the good economy we had helped even this corridor of deterioration, but take a look at what is being built as new construction - one and two family homes, which is great, because it encourages home ownership, and that's a whole other topic. But also look at what it has replaced - multifamily buildings. This lowers the density, and now there are less rentals for people that can't afford to buy a home. Sure, at this point, ANY new building activity is good in that neighborhood because of the burnouts etc that had to be removed. But I can't help but wonder what that neighborhood would have looked like if it hadn't been surpressed by years of antiquated rent control laws. Sure, there are many reasons why Bedford-Stuyvesant, the south Bronx, etc got to where it did, but it may not have gotten as far to the point it did in the 70's when it hit rock bottom if the market was allowed a bit of stabilization. Nothing good can come out of a fact where a landlord is either left with walking away from his building, or worse - burning it down because there is no money coming in to even cover the costs of it, especially in older neighborhoods where the housing stock is in need of updating, upgrading, and more maintenance.
The fare structure is in a sense a bit similar on a smaller scale. The $.05 fare destroyed both the BMT and the IND. That fare lasted a half a century. How can it possibly have been a good idea to have the same fare (or close to it) from 1904 to whenever it was raised to a dime? How can aging systems operate and make necessary upgrades on that, when fares are the same as they were 50 years earlier? What does that lead to: Just like landlords can't maintain their buildings if the rent is too low to allow for it, transit companies can not maintain their infastructure if the fare is too low either. ANd when the $hit finally hits the fan like everything did in the 70's, we paid for those artificially low fares/rents that for years forced it down.
The fare structure is in a sense a bit similar on a smaller scale. The $.05 fare destroyed both the BMT and the IND.
Ooops, I meant the BMT and the IRT.
(I truely believe that one of the reasons many of the neighborhoods in New York look the way they do/have looked with abandoned buildings, etc, is because of the surpressed rent market. )
Are you aware that there is no rent control whatsoever on a building that has been rehabilitated after being vacant?
Rent control and stabilization only apply to buildings that have been around for quite a long time (since the 70s, unless the builder volunteered for stabilization in return for tax subsidies), and often an apartment is decontrolled once it becomes vacant.
and often an apartment is decontrolled once it becomes vacant.\
Correct, rent control is gone once the rent controlled apartment becomes vacant, but then it comes under rent stabilization (if 6 or more units in the building) unless the rent is over $2000 (or some number like that). But the landlord is only allowed a certain percentage over what the rent controlled apartment was renting for, or it may be brought up to "market rent" by averaging similar units in the building, which doesn't help if the other units are already below market value. They may also raise the rent by 1/40th of the costs of any repairs to the building.
Are you aware that there is no rent control whatsoever on a building that has been rehabilitated after being vacant?
I always heard that after a point the new units also become rent-stabilized (not rent controlled). But this may also fall under the "over $2000 rent" part of rent stabilization. Luxury apartments will not fall under any rent regulations because the rent will be over $2000. But this still doesn't help the the less affluent, and of course any new buildings built will be luxury, so they don't have to worry about the rent being under $2000. So if rent regulation is supposed to help people less affluent, there is still a shortage of "less affluent" rentals.
They may also raise the rent by 1/40th of the costs of any repairs to the building.
Oops, I meant "any repairs to the individual apartment" (not building), which includes bathroom, kitchen, windows, etc.
I don't want to get into a discussion about rent control/stabilization here,
Sure you do -- you just wrote three long paragraphs on the topic!
Some form of rent control is necessary to support long-term rental-based residency. Why do I say that? A long-term renter, within a few years, will want to make modifications to the apartment. Take out a wall here, put in a wall there, redo the kitchen and bathrooms, etc. An unscrupulous landlord, seeing the money the renter has put into the apartment, will then jack up the rent. The renter will be forced to choose between paying the inflated rent and abandoning all the expensive improvements and starting over from scratch somewhere else. Few long-term residents are willing to take that risk, so long-term residents simply won't rent.
That's not in and of itself a problem, except that in much of the city, nearly all housing is available only on a rental basis. So long-term residents will invariably leave for the suburbs. That's not in the city's best interest at all.
Now, what exact form of rent control should be in place is a different question entirely.
That's not in and of itself a problem, except that in much of the city, nearly all housing is available only on a rental basis. So long-term residents will invariably leave for the suburbs. That's not in the city's best interest at all.
As co-ops and condos show, one needn't have a house in order to own one's residence. A good idea would be to give a long-term renter the option to buy after having lived there a certain amount of time without the need for a down payment.
>>> Some form of rent control is necessary to support long-term rental-based residency. Why do I say that? A long-term renter, within a few years, will want to make modifications to the apartment. <<<
You must know some unusual long term renters. Those I have known who have been at one place for as much as 30 years have never wanted to make structural modifications to their apartments. They have asked the landlord for repainting, a new refrigerator, stove, or air conditioner, but never structural modifications.
Typically, long term renters (absent rent control) never intended to be long term renters but grew old in an apartment and never amassed enough capital to purchase a residence or move to a better apartment. At the least, if one were going to make long term improvements, he would get a long term (10+ years) lease with fixed rental increases determined at the beginning of the lease.
Usually the problems with long term renters occur when an area gentrifies, raising the property values. Property owners want to realize a decent return on their property, and therefore will raise their rents when the property value goes up and there is a pool of renters willing to pay the increased amount. The original renters cannot afford the higher rents because of the change in the nature of the neighborhood.
Tom
You must not be thinking of NYC, where most of the housing stock -- and practically all of the housing stock in some neighborhoods -- is only available on a rental basis.
Here's the 2000 Census report.
Citywide, 70% of occupied housing units are rentals, of which 8% have been occupied by their current occupants for over 30 years. (That's 161,543 units.)
In Manhattan, 80% of occupied housing units are rentals, of which 11% have been occupied by their current occupants for over 30 years.
In my census tract, 62% of occupied housing units are rentals, of which 17% have been occupied by their current occupants for over 30 years.
I'm sure that in some areas, you're right. But those are the areas which have a few apartment buildings, designed only for temporary living, and lots and lots of single-family houses. Everybody lives in (and owns) a house except the poor and the transient. The poor can't afford to make improvements and the transient, by definition, don't stick around for long.
Many of the apartment buildings in NYC, generally the prewar ones, are very well suited for long-term living. Most are rentals. Many of their renters plan from the outset to stay a while.
Would you recommend that someone searching for long-term housing in Manhattan not consider any rentals? That eliminates about 80% of the market.
AFAIK, long-term leases simply don't exist on residential units. They could but they don't, at least not in appreciable quantities.
As you point out, rent control also encourages long-term residence in another way: if property values rise, renters who can't afford the new market rents aren't forced to leave.
Rent control has been around since before most current landlords were landlords. Current landlords knew about rent control and took it into account when buying their property. Eliminating rent control tomorrow would give current landlords a huge gift at the expense of the city itself, which would lose many of its long-term residents.
Eliminating rent control tomorrow would give current landlords a huge gift at the expense of the city itself, which would lose many of its long-term residents.
Many of these long-term rent-controlled tenants probably are in the older age brackets. Eliminating rent control indeed would force some of them out of the city ... and that would be good.
Now, I mean no disrespect to the elderly. I'll be classified as a "senior citizen" myself in just 20 years. The fact of the matter, however, is that many seniors end up on Medicaid, and as we know all too well Medicaid has become a monster that's eating New York alive. As a result, if the elimination of rent control would lead to an out-migration of the elderly, it's a smart idea for New York.
>>> Here's the 2000 Census report. <<<
It is funny how two people can look at the same figures and see two different things. What I notice is that only 7.7% of NYC renters are in the same residence over thirty years, compared to 18.4% of owner occupied housing. I do not consider 7.7% a high figure. I suspect, but have not looked it up, that the figure would be similar for Los Angeles, although Los Angeles would have a higher percentage of owner occupied housing (but if you included Nassau, Westchester and nearby New Jersey with NYC, those figures would narrow also). I do see that Manhattan has slightly reversed figures with 10.5% in rental housing over 30 years and 9.3% in owner occupied housing. This may be due to high cost of buying in Manhattan delaying the purchase to later in life, and therefore the grim reaper cuts down on long term ownership. Neither of these figures give any clue as to what portion of the renters have leases.
>>> Many of the apartment buildings in NYC, generally the prewar ones, are very well suited for long-term living. Most are rentals. Many of their renters plan from the outset to stay a while. <<<
But aren't those rent controlled? I specifically stated in non rent controlled housing you will not have that. Here in Los Angeles, apartments for long term occupancy are generally condominiums, co-ops, or at least multi year leases with options to renew. It is only in rent controlled enclaves like the Peoples' Republic of Santa Monica that you find many long term tenants on month to month rentals.
>>> Would you recommend that someone searching for long-term housing in Manhattan not consider any rentals? That eliminates about 80% of the market. <<<
Wanting to live long term in Manhattan does not necessarily equate with living in the same location for the whole time. I would find a place to live while looking for a place to purchase. If I could not afford to purchase in Manhattan I would probably purchase in one of the other boroughs. The investment aspects of owning are too good to pass up.
Tom
I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say about taxi medallions: this is a case of evil capitalists manipulating the government to keep cab fares artificially high, while keeping the cab drivers themselves poor. The Sun probably highly approves of this.
If not as private corporations, I would like to see some divisional competition. Which division is cleaner? More on time? Has fewer car breakdowns/stalled trains. Etc.
Some things should be privatized, e.g., station cleaning and car-sweepouts at terminals.
I'd put station cleaning/maintenance directly into the hands of the Borough Presidents. It'd be their butt that gets fried on election day if the stations are not up to snuff.
David J. Greenberger, GP38 Chris, and I did some railfanning today. Here are the cream of the crop photos that I took. Eventually, I will be placing these into my normal railfanwindow.com gallery and will give them all descriptions. If you have any questions about the photos, post 'em here and I'll answer 'em. Enjoy!
THE PHOTOS
Take Pride,
Brian
thanks for the photos. What shocked me today was that they actually signed the Far Rockaway shuttles as shuttles (the R44s anyway). The R38s usually carry S, but the R44s carry A still usually. What car was that, BMDoobieW, that had the S sign at Far Rock?
ENY Nova 5205 (R38 #4096)
R-44 5434. All the sets were R-44s and they were all grey (S).
I've never seen Far Rock - Rock Park GO shuttles signed as anything but S or running anything but R-44's.
Those shuttles won't run anything other than 44's because they're OPTO. Although on that line it wouldn't make a difference because all the doors would be opening on the same side. Hmm... OPTO on a 38? Maybe I shouldn't give the TA the idea.
You know, the last photo in the group with 2361, and the train sneaking up behind it, that me and David said wouldn't work, and you had no time to take, is probably one of the most interesting shots in the group! Between the old railing, and the flag decal, etc, it's a very artsy shot!
Thanks. It just sorta worked out that way. I figured you and David would do the unholy thing of holding the doors for me if they started to close, so I just waited for the camera to get a focus lock and took the photo. I wasn't even sure if the G.O. (1) would come out in focus, but it did :)
---Brian
Great pics. The only problem I have with them is no snow! :)
Gotta love those station ceiling/roofs down in The Rock. Most original in the TA.
Gotta love those station ceiling/roofs down in The Rock. Most original in the TA.
Hehe, yeah - SKYLIGHTS! Actually, we also went through Atlantic (L) yesterday, and I regretably forgot to take a photo of the center platform, which basically has the canopy lying ON the platform, in various stages of destruction as they dismantle it. However, if the TA doesn't watch it, Playland, Seaside, etc will soon look like that without the construction crews.....
I did get at least one photo with snow. And in The Rock, too! Look at photo "PDRM2345.jpg" and look at the lower right corner.
Hehe, I was just looking at this photo, and interestingly some of our reflections are in the cab's window. I think that's me on the left.
Yeah, I saw that. Neat effect. So that's me on the right, under the wiper blade?
that w train photo,what car was that?looks like an R40M
til next time
Yes, an R-40M! On the (W)!
What's your favorite, or most useful, subway transfer in NYC?
Since I find myself in Penn Station a lot my favorite has to be the cross-platform A/C - F at Jay Street Brooklyn. It's the only time the A and F get together across a platform. I prefer to enter Penn at the 8th Avenue end, so I can grab the last car on the Port Washington line.
However...
With LIRR rates becoming usurious in May, they've priced me out. It'll be pretty much the 7 train to work and play from now on. My favorite transfer may become the cross-platform 7-N/W, except for the fact that most weekends, one or the other isn't running between Manhattan and Queens.
I also find myself using the 1/2/3-BMT 4th avenue transfer at Atlantic Avenue but you have to subtract points since it's not cross-platform.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My favorite transfer is between the C and B/D at 59th St-Columbus Circle. I live at a CPW local station and work at a 6th Ave local station so that's way I gotta go.
Take Pride,
Brian
Times Square. Very, very useful. You can go almost anywhere in the system from there.
:-) Andrew
That used to be my favorite spot of transfer when I was kid living in New York. I lived in Queensbridge and had to take the BMT#2 Fourth Avenue Local which I hated with a passion. From Queens Plaza, to Lex, 5th Ave, 57th, 49th, and finally to 42nd Street seemed to take eons. However, we would walk across to the other platform and soon we had a smorgasboard of choices, the Brighton Express, the West End and my Sea Beach. My parents knew which one to take even if we had to wait because they didn't want a scene at Times Square.
Hey Fred, do you remember the stopping marks for each of the Broadway express services?
I have to plead ignorance on this. What are these markers you are talking about?
There used to be round stopping marks along the entire length of the station along the express tracks showing the door locations for each of the express routes. They were marked Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton. People would queue up at these markers for their particular train. They must have been removed years ago because they were gone by the time I began riding on the subway regulerly.
Wouldn't each train stop at the same location at each platform?
That's a good question. I think it may have had to do with rolling stock, but I'm not sure. In those days, West End trains were all-BMT standards while the Brighton and Sea Beach ran Triplexes. The door arrangements were different, so as long as one line used one type of equipment, they could get away with different stopping marks.
I remember them and some of the people in the Sea Beach line actually got to know me because I seemed to be there all the time and the return riders would sometimes run into me. They must of known that there was a very wierd riding the train.
Correction,EVERY weekend untill next year you'll only find the W at Queensboro Plz.The N is only running as a shuttle in Brooklyn.On weekdays you can use both.
My Favorite Transfer is the A/C/F at Jay St, mainly because I live near there(Polytechnic University) and it gives me more options of things to do in the city without transfering.
The DeKalb bridge/tunnel transfer I have used a countless number of times, and whenever I'm in Manhattan, chances are I'll end up using 34th to go from Broadway to 6th. The former is cross-platform, the latter isn't. Of course the DeKalb I use a lot as well w/o the cross-platform like when I'm going from 4th Ave to Brighton and CI is more out of the way than DeKalb.
All:
Does anyone besides me remember when there was both a bank (Dime?) and an Optometrist's office in the walkway from Boro Hall (2, 3, 4, 5) to Court St. (N, R, W)? It must have been at least 20 years ago. I recall the eyewear peddler had a 1940s-era, winking red neon sign facing the passageway.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I remember that. It wasn't the Dime it was The Brooklyn Savings Bank. (later Metropolitan then Crosslands)
The teller windows are still there.
...but the escalators to the BMT platform are still under "renovation".
Well at least there's even a working bathroom in that station.
Usually, but it was closed on my last visit. Maybe it's being rehabbed by the elevator guys.
Well, so much for clean end-of-the-platform columns at Borough Hall.
I wasn't that desparate.
2/3 to 1/9 at 14th.
If you're talking about a quick transfer from one line to another, I'd say from the L to the Broadway line at Union Square.
If you're talking about an interesting winding path type of transfer when you're not in a hurry, I'd go with the A/C/E to the 2/3 at Chambers St./Park Place.
My 2 favorites are somewhat unorthodox.
1. Exterior metrocard transfer from F to 4/5/6 at Lex/63rd/60th. I don't use the transfer itself, but it allows me to make a round trip to that neighborhood on a single fare.
2. L to 1/2/3 at 14th. It's long, but the stairs aren't bad. In bad weather, it allows me to get to the west side from my neighborhood (near 3rd and 14th) while staying dry and at a nice temperature.
Favourite transfers:
- Coney Island / Stillwell Avenue
- Broadway Junction / East New York
So much fun to watch, you don't CARE when your train comes :)
--Mark
My favorite transfer is from the Atlantic Ave complex in Downtown Brooklyn to the G line at Fulton St station. A small walk (5 minutes), but worth it to avoid any potential problems in Manhattan, if you need to get to Queens from Brooklyn.
Now it's 36th Street in Brooklyn where I can change from the West End to the Sea Beach and ride it out to 86th and in the future back to Coney Island. Perhaps I won't have to do any transferring at 36th down the road if the TA finally puts my train back on the bridge where it belongs and takes it out of exile from that pathetic Montague rathole.
at least the N gets to go back to Coney Island, the 5 will never go back to E 241 St unless a G.O. or something else happens
I believe even the eyes of the MTA (yes Fred, they care about the N more than another line), the N to Coney Island is more important than the 5 to 241st.
In the meantime, you can look at this:
A thing of beauty isn't it? And those railfanners think so as well. Where did you pull this picture from?
Looks like http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i4000/img_4790.jpg
You got it.
Then there's this one:
Note the red and white marker lights and the good old red "EXP" sign. That's what I see when I think of the R-32s.
A work of art Steve, and, yes, Linda knows me better than I know myself.
There are other R-32 photos on the N from the good old days; i. e. on the Broadway express tracks. I can still see an N come into view after the jog south of Union Square: the dual headlights, the red and white marker lights (well, I don't remember that, but that was the code for the N), the "N-57th Street" signs up front. We'd board and then those R-32s would effortlessly zoom past 23rd and 28th Streets. I liked that ride almost as much as the CPW express dash.
I never knew that the TA allowed candy vending machines like the red boxes at each pillar. How interesting!!!
At one time, we were cleaning out one of those machines, at The New York Transit Museum, and actually found a number of those 2-paks of chiclets inside. They were many years old and the gum had turned black and shrunk to the size of raisins....eeeww.
peace,
ANDEE
>>> They were many years old and the gum had turned black and shrunk to the size of raisins <<<
But how did it taste? :-)
Tom
"I never knew that the TA allowed candy vending machines like the red boxes at each pillar. How interesting!!!"
Oh yeah. I remember those vending machines well. The platforms still look empty to me without them. It was mostly a New York thing....since the chiclets were made in Long Island City! Then there were those Nic-O-Loc (I think I'm spelling it correctly) locks on the rest room doors. It's amazing how "the public" manners must have diminished in general...enough so that we can't depend upon our neighbors to not trash the mens room. So nobody gets to go to the bathroom legally. Why has this occurred?
7/N/W Queensborough Plaza...
Very conveient, minimal walking, and is a great shortcut depending on where you are headed. I hate transferring at Times Square, that station just plain sucks.
It's not a pure subway/subway transfer, but I have always liked changing from the elevated Atlantic Avenue BMT stop to the East New York LIRR station. I like the way the elevated stairway steps are right near the street level railroad platform. I think of this as a backdoor exit from the city. Probably the least appreciated of the LIRR-NYCTA junctions. But it works just fine.
Funny, I love that transfer also. I use it all the time. It is one of the easiest LIRR to subway connections. I always find it amazing that it isn't used more. After all, Atlantic Ave is the LEAST used subway station in all of Brooklyn. Amazing since it has this very under-appreciated and under-utilized transfer to the LIRR. When using the LIRR, it is the transfer to the subway I use the most, except of course when going to Manhattan.
Same for me. I used it maybe once every two weeks when my company was on 14th Street. Now that we're on Hudson Street, it's less convenient, but every now and then I'll use it for old times' sake.
Yep, that East New York LIRR Station has a lot going for it. I like the starkness of the immediate surroundings. The configuration of the adjourning streets is intriguing and complex. I like how their tangents have, when at all possible, been maintained. The way Atlantic Avenue passes by overhead is nice too. It's funny but you hardly notice the overhead highway when you're on the platforms. Well designed. The station itself looks like the 1920s version of what the future was gonna look like. Especially if you had grown up when that line was all street level out to Jamaica.
And I also enjoy the fact that it's so very NOT a Queens railroad station. Brooklyn, all the way. Hell, if logic were king, that entire center would be noted as one of the primary areas to live near. Look at all the places you can reach from it. I'm always shocked that East New York isn't middle class and thriving. Then again, it does make for a relaxed place to board a train from. Away from the maddening crowds.
Is there any unusual/outdated signage in the ENY LIRR station?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is there any unusual/outdated signage in the ENY LIRR station?
I think there is a "To Rockaways" sign pointing to the eastbound platforms. Can't swear to it on the proverbial stack of Bibles, however.
While the sign (assuming it's really there) no doubt referred to the old Rockaway line, it's still technically correct - you can get Far Rockway-bound trains at the station.
Yup, that sign "To Rockaways" is still there in the crossunder where the ticket office is.
Amazingly I didn't even know there was an open ticket office (rush hours)still at the station after using it many times, until one day the conductor said I had to pay the "on train" fare one rush hour. I said, "Huh?". He said, "Yeah, there is a ticket office there." He let me go that time, but I had no idea they still used the ticket office there. Since then, if I have to travel from there in the morning, I always get my ticket (and see the "Rockaway" sign).
I'd have to say the Times Square complex. I still remember when there was no free transfer to the 8th Ave. line and there were signs explicitly saying so.
>>> What's your favorite, or most useful, subway transfer in NYC? <<<
Well, it has been awhile since I have used it, but my favorite transfer was between the Flushing line and the 3rd Avenue El at 42nd Street. Both stations were interesting, and frequently there was a vendor on the sidewalk selling costume jewelry earrings for $1.00 (+ 10¢ luxury tax). I would always stop to look at them, and save my money all year long to purchase a pair for my mother on her birthday.
Tom
That's cool.
I for one will likely abandon the LIRR once the fares are hiked in May.
Will enough riders find alternatives, ie. car pooling, auto commuting or in my case, switching to a bus/subway transfer, to make the MTA rue this decision?
It's one way to fight back.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Um, I think that the recent automotive fare hike (rising gas prices) will far outstrip the extra $ the LIRR is nicking you.
I think a measurable percentage of people will abandon the commuter railroads, but not enough to make the fare increase "backfire."
Take Pride,
Brian
(I think a measurable percentage of people will abandon the commuter railroads, but not enough to make the fare increase "backfire.")
Same with the subway. But if Pataki hadn't paid politics with the fare, and had increased it a little each year (like the Post Office) this wouldn't even be an issue. There fare would be lower, too, because the MTA would have lower debts. Part of the fare increase is going to pay off debts incurred while keeping the fare low.
But this is nothing new. Look at the history of past fare hikes. Yes the number of cents were lower, but that's because inflation has eroded the value of a cent. Look at the percents. 50 percent. 33 percent. 20 percent. Only a couple of increases in the late 1980s and early 1990s were smaller in percentage terms.
Same thing at CUNY and SUNY. Nothing for years, and then 40 percent. It wrecks people's plans, and it's totally dishonest. Then there is the soaring tax rate for unemployment insurance, a job killing tax no one is talking about. They cut it in the boom. They're raising it through the moon now. Only two states were sleazy and stupid enough to do this: New York and Texas.
The winners are those who got theirs and moved on. The losers are those who are here now. New York always sells out the future, because it is run by those who are moving out, as individuals, as families, as racial/ethnic/economic groups.
I hope they raise the fare next year, by whatever percentage the TWUs wages plus health care insurance premiums plus pension contributions go up. And the year after that. And the year after that. This massive increase should never happen again. But it will.
Bastards.
I don't know why you're complaining.
"Same thing at CUNY and SUNY. Nothing for years, and then 40 percent."
Meaning that, instead of paying ever higher fees, you had use of that money instead, and opportunities to inbvest it at very good rates in the 1990s.
"It wrecks people's plans,"
Only if you decide not to take advantage of it. You could have invested the money in other ways, and reserved some oof your gains to pay the increase in tuition that you knew (unless you're completely blind, deaf and stupid) had to be coming.
And it's totally dishonest.
About the borrowing, maybe. But you have to accept responsibility for setting your own budget. at home.
I sure didn't move to New York for the politics, but the long-term prospects are, there's a healthy city here with a decent infrastructure and interesting, moderetely well-educated people. I came from a state, Ohio (not the worst, by far), where you can only get anywhere by driving, where the politics are terminally short sighted (if more honest), and the civic literacy will NEVER go up. This board couldn't happen there. When Saddam burns the oil fields and everyone moves back into town, Cincinnati will collapse, New York will go on. The ones who left will be sorry.
Interesting observations.
Welcome to SUBtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why fight back?Nothing last's forever you know.That include's railroad fares.So just deal with it,I'm sure other's will.
>>Why fight back?Nothing last's forever you know.That include's railroad fares.So just deal with it,I'm sure other's will. <<<
Well, I can cut my monthly bill in half by using a bus/subway.
The brass where I work at [workplace name deleted because composer fears possible backlash] are not about to grant us a cost of living increase this year because business has been bad. So, I have to do what I have to do and cut corners.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm confused at what you're fighting back at. Inflation? Prices have been going up over the past decade and wages have (chances are you're making more money now than you were 10 years ago), so I don't see what there is to fight. You're making more money and at the same time transportation costs more, so in the end it all balances out.
>>>Prices have been going up over the past decade and wages have (chances are you're making more money now than you were 10 years ago)<<<
I disagree. Studies (no, I can't at this time cite a specific study) have shown that wages have NOT kept up with price increases since the mid-1970s, and that today's consumer doesn't have nearly the purchasing power that the typical consumer did back then. Just look at housing costs and rents.
So, yes, I do resent this increase, because I am not getting a concomitant increase in wages. You may say, go elsewhere to work. Where?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you get a wage increase a year ago, two years ago? The fare didn't go up back then.
Arti
>>>Did you get a wage increase a year ago, two years ago? The fare didn't go up back then. <<<
I got a 1% increase last year; none expected this year. Company is citing hard times.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So your transportation expenses decreased compared to your salary.
Arti
I don't know about your wages but mine only went up 3% in 2001 and 2% in 2002 with no increase in 2003. so where does the MTA get of to raise it what 25% ???
This is a good example of how easy it is to abuse percentages. Your salary (presumably measured in $10,000s/year) went up 2-3% per annum -say, by about $1000 per annum. Your commuter fare (presumably measured in $1000s/year) goes up 25% but that is 25% of a smaller base number - maybe it also goes up $1000. Still terrible - it has eaten up all your pay rise! But you've also forgotten all the years when you got 2% or 3% and the fares went up 0%. This is the first increase for eight years, so 25% comes out at less than 3% per annum
Lesson - put up the fares a little bit each year, as others on this thread have suggested.
Very well stated. The truth is I hate the fare hike also, but it hasn't gone up since the mid-90's. It's time and overdue. Instead of complaining about how the fare is going up, no one seems to be complimenting that they kept it from going up for so many years.
The truth is I hate the fare hike also, but it hasn't gone up since the mid-90's. It's time and overdue. Instead of complaining about how the fare is going up, no one seems to be complimenting that they kept it from going up for so many years.
To add insult to injury, fares are increasing at a time when many workers are getting low or no raises. I sort of suspect that this fare hike wouldn't have been seen as so burdensome if it had happened in 1999 or thereabouts. Timing is everything, after all.
But the pressure of having to keep the fare low increases efficiency at the MTA. A good example is the MTBA. While they didn't raise fares every year, they always have their deficit made up in full by the state. This gave the MTBA no incentive to ever try to cut costs or improve efficiency. When fares are fixed, it forces the acency to tighten its belt and of course the savings are passed onto you. PATCO went 16 or so years with out a fare hike. They were able to accomplish this by A) the cost when first hiked back around 84 was pretty high and B) they instituted an aggressive policy of cost containment. They allowed the commuters of south jersey to enjoy a cheap ride into philly for over a decade because raising fares just wasn't an option.
Personally I think that the MTA cut fares too much w/ the MetroCard introduction. Instead of multi-ride discounts they needed a single ride and token surcharge, just like SEPTA. I didn't complain when the SEPTA base fare went to $2. Only morons pay $2. Its a cash/single ride surcharge. By buying just 2 rides at a time you can pay 1.30 a ride. This is far more accessable/fair to ALL riders, even tourists.
Personally I think that the MTA cut fares too much w/ the MetroCard introduction. Instead of multi-ride discounts they needed a single ride and token surcharge, just like SEPTA. I didn't complain when the SEPTA base fare went to $2. Only morons pay $2. Its a cash/single ride surcharge. By buying just 2 rides at a time you can pay 1.30 a ride. This is far more accessable/fair to ALL riders, even tourists.
Surcharges for single rides would be a political minefield. Advocacy groups would claim that the surcharges were discriminatory against poor people who could barely scrape up enough money for a single ride. I know, that's an illogical argument - how are the poor people supposed to return from where they're going? - but never underestimate the creativity and tenacity of New York advocacy groups.
(Surcharges for single rides would be a political minefield.)
How different is $2 for 1 ride and $10 for 6 rides? Not exactly the same as a surcharge for a single ride, but close.
Surcharges for single rides would be a political minefield.
How different is $2 for 1 ride and $10 for 6 rides? Not exactly the same as a surcharge for a single ride, but close.
Close enough that there'll probably be some advocacy-group opposition to those too.
Round trip tickets have always been discounted. Transactions costs the MTA $ and if the customer insists on more transactions they should pay more. $2 for a single ride or $1.50 for each ride bought in quantities greater than 2 would have been far more appealing than the current system. Had the MTA implemented this plan several years ago, the current hike could have been limited to unlimited passes and commuter rail.
I don't consider the SEPTA fare to be $2. Only the lazy or stupid ever pay $2 for a SEPTA trip, but this is a significant portion of the population and why shouldn't they subusdize service for the motovated/smart.
"Lesson - put up the fares a little bit each year, as others on this thread have suggested"
An example of people crying because MTA made a decision that actually benefitted them.
Do the math.
and that today's consumer doesn't have nearly the purchasing power that the typical consumer did back then. Just look at housing costs and rents.
Hmm, but I also think people have a lot more "toys" now also. Let's see, computers, big screen TV's, luxury cars, etc, etc. Somebody is buying thse things. In the 70's I seem to remember many "junk" cars on the roads (very rare now, or certainly not like you used to see in the 70's). People spend much more money on things they don't really "need" than they did in the 60's or 70's. "Our grandparents" were alot more frugle than "we" are today.
" disagree. Studies (no, I can't at this time cite a specific study) have shown that wages have NOT kept up with price increases since the mid-1970s, and that today's consumer doesn't have nearly the purchasing power that the typical consumer did back then. Just look at housing costs and rents. "
You had several years of no rate hikes in which to save money. Investment returns in the stock market (just average S&P in the 1990's) averaged > 10%. If you did nothing else but mentally calculate a 4% rate hike in LIRR tickets, compounded annually, and put a little money in the bank every year, the rate hike today would be a hiccup for you. And that's counting the fact that you might not get more than a 3% hike in pay every year.
I took some of the money I knew I wouldn't have to spend on increased fares during the 1995-2002 time period and used it to make extra payments on a student loan at 6%. The amount of principal I wiped out reduced my interest burden a lot more than the bite a 25% fare increase would claim.
So stop whining.
I hate the rate hikes as much as anyone, but I have few alternatives to get from Cedarhurst to lower Manhattan. I could take the A from Far Rock but then I'd have to get a ride to Mott Ave (or take a bus there) and then wait for the A to crawl through the Far Rock stations and cross the Bay.
I agree that the fare hikes stink but the MTA has held the fare since '95, an eternity in transit terms. Its inevitable that it would go up.
Just an FYI if you do want to go the "civil protest" route:
The N31, 32 and 33 can connect to the Green Lines QM16 express bus route.
This will take you into Manhattan at a total cost of $3.00.
Service is of course no where near as frequent as what you may expect.
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
I for one will likely abandon the LIRR once the fares are hiked in May.
Will enough riders find alternatives, ie. car pooling, auto commuting or in my case, switching to a bus/subway transfer, to make the MTA rue this decision?
Most LIRR riders in Nassau and Suffolk don't have the bus/subway option. Carpooling's generally not a very good alternative due to traffic and parking difficulties. The one thing that may cut down on LIRR ridership is increased use of telecommuting, although I'm somewhat skeptical as to how useful an option that really is.
Absolutely not
some riders may be pissed, but no one will abandon the rails for the worlds longest parking lot (LIE) and the parkways which are equally as bad, many ttowns are commuter towns and everyone who works in the city takes the train, and those who drive dopnt work in the city, or at least midtown
I'm gonna get ratcheted big time. But I still won't drive to work, and I like driving; I just like riding MNRR more. It's relaxing, and walking to the station is exercise, and if they ever figure out how to give me my Section 132(f) discount (a new-Democrat approach to the environment if there ever was one), it's STILL a lot cheaper to ride, even with free parking. And I didn't live here to benefit from the years of no fare hikes.
Yes, this works for me because I'm a commuter and not a poor working person.
According to one source, this is the projected A division car assignment manifest for "Summer 2003".
Line Equipment
1 R 62A
2 R 142
3 R 62
4 R 142
R 142 A
R 62 A
5 R 142
6 R 142 A
7 R 62 A
Oh, the horror! THE HORROR! I must get more redbird photos! Aaaaahhh! EEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
---Brian
all of the red birds will be gone ??.............???
sez who ?....................?...........................!
QUICK!!!
Get the man some smelling salts.
by july
I can't help but question your source, but that still worries me!! :( I need to get a camera and capture those Redbirds in all of their glory soon! Besides, the listing for the 4 is a bit off. It will be the only line with a mixed fleet and will also have R62's.
All the R62's will be assigned to the #3 line, while some R62A's will be transferred to the #7, a few on the #4 line. Still a lot of WF cars on the #7 line, but hurry. LIMITED TIME OFFER, EXPIRES THIS SUMMER.
I won't miss them too much. There's one in my school, in the railcar lab. I see it every day on my way to lunch, because it's behind the stairs to the cafeteria. I've seen it carry many signs, including a (2) and a yellow (Q). It has all kinds of strange rollsigns in it, including "Javits Center". Is there really a sign like that in all trains, or did they just put that in there?
I think the number is either 8667 or 8337, or something starting with 8. Does anybody happen to know what type that is? I'm just curious. Is that an A division car, like R26 or R36, or a B division R27/R30?
That's R-30 #8337. I doubt any actual rollsign ever carried a listing for Javits Center :).
What kind of shape is it in? Can you get photos?
i don,t think that R30 have the javits center on their rollsigns,
it,s in good shape.
til next time
No, I'm not looking to buy any. Just wondering which destinations exist on them. I know of a few common ones, but what else. For one thing, I know that the Subway-Surface rollsigns also include signs for Routes 6, 15, 23, 50, 53, and 56. Destinations shared by two routes show up under both route numbers (i.e. 17th & Erie under both the 56 and 53...).
But, what of the actual destinations? and those not seen on the double-ended cars used on the 101 and 102 trolleys? The P&W (Route 100) cars? Can anyone help?
Regarding SEPTA City Division streetcar rollsigns:
The signs for the GOH PCCs and the original signs for the Kawasaki cars included destinations for all routes (6, 23, 50, 53, 56, 60, 10, 15, 11, 13, 34 & 36). The PCCs signs are two piece signs (the number sign is seperate). The Kawasaki cars have one piece signs. Some of the original signs on the Kawasakis have been replaced and the new signs now ommit Route 6, 50, 53 and 60 since these are paved over. The new ones still do include signs for Routes 15, 23 & 56 (along with 10, 11, 34 & 36) since they are all still technically car lines.
I can't speak for what the Red Arrow Kawasakis or the P&W cars have.
Matthew Mummert
I've got a idea for the Second Avenue Subway. The line will be IND+BMT width. I don't know about how the stations will look like although I like the old IRT style although I'm not to crazy about the plainer looking 20's 30's era stations. The line will go under Second Ave in Manhattan, will start south of the 167th street subway station on the Concourse line and will go south toward's Manhattan via tunnel under the Harlem River. The line will have 4 tracks throughout most of its length. Express and local stations will be at the same streets as the Lexington IRT. Some train service will branch off at 63rd street and become part of the Broadway subway line.
The rest of the line will be a four track subway thus relieving crowding on the Lexington IRT which will be good for Upper East Side residents. Being like the IND line mostly straight and fast lines will also be a good thing for subway riders.
When the line gets to Delancey St. half of the line (two tracks) will split up and merge with the Nassau St. line JMZ where there's track capacity until south of Chambers St. where there is just two tracks until Montague Street. The other half of the line will go under Water St. and will merge with the Broadway Subway and the Nassau St. line under Montague Street and will go through the tunnel to Brooklyn.
Now Brooklyn is a problem because in some parts such as DeKalb Ave and the 4th ave subway I'm not sure if there's the track capacity to support the service although the rest of the line would go through there. The service would go through the Sea Beach Express tracks (if they were fixed up for service) all the way to Coney Island Stillwell Ave.
Now my ideas are not really original but they seem ambitious. Does anyone have any opinions?
hate to be the one to tell you this,but your blowing smoke... SAS is being designed as we speak.. as a TWO track subway from upper Manhattan to downtown, with a spur to Broadway, for service to Brooklyn. as for the connection to the Montague tunnel,its looks like thats where the planners sending it,due to the fact it terminal station sits under the Wall street station of the 2/3 line.
"Now Brooklyn is a problem because in some parts such as DeKalb Ave and the 4th ave subway I'm not sure if there's the track capacity to support the service..."
Not sure? Take an M train, in either direction, between 36th Street and Court Street. Look out the back window. You will undoubtedly see the headlights of either an R train, or an N. Trains over there run less than a minute apart at times, and they all cross in front of each other, not to mention door-holding and connections at Pacific and at DeKalb. No question, there's definitely no more capacity to hold additional trains on that line. As it is, the N train being in the tunnel causes enough chaos trying to switch back and forth from the express tracks. Sticking an additional train from the 2nd Avenue Line would mean service on those lines would have to be reduced in frequency.
(No question, there's definitely no more capacity to hold additional trains on that line.)
The MTA schedule reports a peak load of 6 Ms, 7-8 Ns, and 7-8 Rs in the Montague Tunnel. That's an absolute max of 22 trains per hour. Other lines run 30. What's more, the Ns will almost certainly disappear from the tunnel, at least in rush hour, once the bridge reopens.
The Montague is one of the LEAST used East River tunnels in the system, especially when the bridge is healthy.
Also, the Ms could be sent through the Chrystie connector up 6th or 8th Ave.
So there's absolutely no capacity reason the 2nd Ave line couldn't be connected with Nassau St.
Geez I didn't know that. Thanks.
you can see this OUTRAGE on gasbuddy.com
also listed is NY state prices ......
the pic below is how it happened first they took our rail system
away ( ON TOPIC ) the oil companies and internal combustion and
petroleum engine mfg. companies ....now its $2.oo a gallon or walk!
davesrailpix.railfan.net....see the pe system los angeles......
=http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_17358.
I paid $2.06 a gallon on vacation in Ohio during the summer of 2000 when they had those refiery problems in the Chicago area, so the $2 crap has been around on and off for the past few years.
Generally, the price of gas has been cheapest in recent years for some reason in the southeast, even though the biggest refinery areas are located in New Jersey, east of Chicago, east of Houston and on the southeastern edge of Los Angeles. West Coast gas prices have been among the highest in the nation, though Southern California still beats Northern California.
If you want to check out the current nationwide gasoline prices, you can go here to the AAA's average price listing site.
Those that vote correctly get a discount, the rest get bupkis. :)
I might think that, except for my Y2K travel experience. Gas price at the Kentucky-Tennessee state line -- $1.29.9 a gallon for unleaded regular. Price in the Cleveland area $1.89.9 a gallon. Yikes! (Double yikes, since my car wants at least 91 octane, which was why I eventaully paid over $2 in Ohio. That was also went I started putting in gas at the rate of about four gallons at a time, and mixing 87 and 93 octane grades, hoping that would get me far enough to get out of the radioactive price area and the car wouldn't notice the 90 octane mix and start making the horsepower buck...)
That was the year that Chicago had some "downed refinery" problems. This year's a bit different. The prices do follow political boundaries this time around except in those areas painted as "envirokook zones" with reformulated requirements. To the moon there ... still, in Sheetz Gas country, the prices are still the lowest.
But if GAS has folks humming, wait until you see natural gas prices, and with the fuel adjustments, your electric bill soon. And the latter affects subways and railroads ...
And AAA is investigating gas price fixing, since prices seem to have no basis in reality. We see prices for regular at 1.699 in areas that are "economicaly deprived" and prices in "high income" areas 4 to 5 cents less.
There seems to be something to the price fixing charge, since AAA's all over the country are on the price fix bandwagon.
And to think, there's a whole bureaucracy of regulators still pulling down checks biweekly. :-\
What method do you use in going from and to the following points? Assume CI is operating normally. (pre 2001) The time of day is up to you. Ditto marks mean same as above
1) (Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) TO (Ocean Pkwy to CI on the Q)
2) Same as #1 if you see a CI-bound N coming to 59th as you come in and you're a fast runner with the stairs nearby
3) (59th St on the N/R) to (" "same as #1)
4) (45th/53rd on the R) to " "
5) (36th on the M/N/R/W) to " "
6) (45th/53rd on the R) to 62nd/New Utrecht
7) (Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) to (same as #6)
8) (45th/53rd, Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) to (71 St-Bay 50th St on the W)
9) (Union to 25th on the R) to (Kings Hwy-Neptune on the F)
I understand that many of the stations I mentioned are close together and people will be willing to give up going from Point A to Point B here as there are other stations that are close to Point B that require the same amount or less walking. So for the sake of fun, let's say you had to get to the station on the line mentioned, by subway only. Remember that there are several ways for each, going through CI, going through DeKalb, going through the 4th Ave-9th St connection.
1) R to 59th, N to Stillwell, Q to destination
2) Same as 1
3) N to Stillwell, Q to destination
4) Same as 1
5) N/R (whichever comes first) to Stillwell, Q to destination
6) R to 59th, N to New Utrecht
7) Same as 6
8) I'd base this on the crowding at 59th. If I suspected that an N would come soon, I'd cross over and take it to New Utrecht. Otherwise I'd go to 36th and take an M/W directly.
9) R to 9th, F to destination
Why would I even consider going through DeKalb for any of these?
From 4th Ave to Brighton, DeKalb is 2 trains, CI is 3 (from an R stop.)
1) (Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) TO (Ocean Pkwy to CI on the Q)
2) Same as #1 if you see a CI-bound N coming to 59th as you come in and you're a fast runner with the stairs nearby
Both (R) to 59th, (N) to CI, (Q) to wherever.
3) (59th St on the N/R) to (" "same as #1)
(N) to CI, (Q) to wherever.
4) (45th/53rd on the R) to " "
(R) to 59th, (N) to CI, (Q) to wherever, although I'd be tempted to ride the B11 to the (Q) train.
5) (36th on the M/N/R/W) to " "
(N) or (W) to CI, (Q) to wherever.
6) (45th/53rd on the R) to 62nd/New Utrecht
(R) to 59th, (N) to New Utrecht.
7) (Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) to (same as #6)
(R) to 59th, (N) to New Utrecht.
8) (45th/53rd, Bay Ridge Ave to 95th on the R) to (71 St-Bay 50th St on the W)
Probably (R) then (W), but maybe the B1, B4, B8 or B68 buses.
9) (Union to 25th on the R) to (Kings Hwy-Neptune on the F)
(R) to 4/9, (F) to wherever.
If the (N) were running local, then (N) to King's Highway, Av U or 86th St then walk.
Scene: The 34th Street west side IRT station, 9:30 a.m. today. The downtown side of the island express platform is packed, with people standing three or four deep along the platform. The people along the platform edge crane their necks over the tracks precipitously, anxiously looking for the hint of a gleaming headlight, the harbinger of an oncoming express.
Suddenly, an announcement. A female voice tells the hopeful riders on a PA system turned up far too loud that due to signal problems between Worth Street and Clark Street, downtown 2/3 trains were running "much slower" than normal and that "some" trains were running to South Ferry, not Brooklyn. The announcement is met with groans and eye-rolling. Minutes pass, still no train, no headlight gleam. Then another announcement. The PA lady gets as far as "Ladies and Gentlemen," before being interrupted by a screeching beep and a garble of voices on a two-way radio. One woman holds her ears through her earmuffs and mouths "Oh, my God" in response to the loud beep.
More minutes pass, still no train, no gleam. The island platform is now more than half covered with passengers waiting for a downtown train. Uptown locals and expresses arrive and leave without a hitch, as if mocking the downtown passengers. After another minute or two, another attempted announcement, another interruption by a deafening screech and garbled radio voices. This time, fewer grumbles from the assembled passengers. Finally, an announcement: the next downtown express is approaching 72nd Street, and the next downtown local is at 59th Street. There is another reminder about the signal trouble, the "much slower speeds" and the possible South Ferry reroute. Now there is more groaning and cursing among the throng. A check of the signals on the downtown express side show green as far as the naked eye can see.
Just as the announcement ends, a gleam is seen on the downtown express tracks north of the station. People begin to gather themselves together, readying to enter the train. The R-62 "3" train pulls in, at NORMAL SPEED, and the doors open. The train is beyond packed and very few people get off. Not to be deterred, several hardy souls push and shove their way onto the train. One burly man carrying a large backpack on his back complains that he is being pushed. After several moments, the C/R admonishes the throng to wait for the next train, which was "directly behind" the 3. Having been told only about two minutes earlier that the next express was only approaching 72nd Street and therefore, because of the "much slower speeds", could not possibly be "directly behind" the 3, the crowd continues to push into the car. Finally, when the cars seem to be full to bursting, the doors close and the 3 pulls out, again at NORMAL SPEED. Somehow, about 2/3 of the crowd had been able to board the 3.
Minutes pass, and there is no train "directly behind" the departed 3. Several minutes pass, and there is another loud announcement about the signal problem, the "much slower" trains and the possible reroutes to South Ferry. After several more minutes, another R-62 "3" pulls in, again at NORMAL SPEED. This train is slightly less crowded than the previous 3, and many people are able to board.
Once the doors are closed, the 3 pulls out a normal speed and the consist makes the express run down to 14th Street without slowing once. At 14th Street, several passengers who had boarded the first 3 train board the second one. A bearded rider wearing a ski cap relates that he had squeezed onto the first 3 train only to hear an announcement from the C/R that the 3 would be going to South Ferry, not Brooklyn. Since he needed to go to Fulton Street, he exited the 3 at 14th. Once he got off, there was an announcement over the station PA that the train would indeed be going to Brooklyn, not South Ferry. Since the 3 was too crowded to try to re-enter, he decided to wait for the next train.
The second 3 leaves 14th Street and rolls downtown towards Chambers without a hitch. The train is moving swiftly, perhaps even more than is normal. Again, no announcements from the C/R about the signal problem or the "much slower" trains. The train pulls into Chambers, discharges passengers, takes more on and leaves the station for its ride downtown and into Brooklyn.
Now all of the above happened to me this morning. I was a rider on the second 3 train. I have the following questions:
1) Why did the person making the station announcements at 34th Street keep her two-way radio right next to the mike, so that the screech could be broadcast to the passengers?
2) Why didn't the person making the station announcements tell the riders about the train about to enter the 34th Street station, but only about the 72nd Street train?
3) If there really was a signal problem, why didn't the C/R on the second 3 say anything about it? And why didn't the second 3 have to slow even a whit, if the trains were running at a much slower speed?
Just another insane day on the IRT.
1) They keep the radios nearby to hear what's going on. Some just keep it too close and too loud. D'oh!
2) Its quite possible she somehow missed the 3 train on the board at 34th Street, or (more likely) it appeared to her that the train was already in the station, so she though she was informing customers that the next train behind that one was at 72nd.
3) Signal problems come and go, sometimes quickly. Whenever I was told I was going to be rerouted or whatever other trouble, I usually waited until the station before (local) or enroute (express). Inconsiderate? Perhaps. But I wasn't doing the following:
Roosevelt: "Ladies and Gentlemen, due to xxx this train will be running on the F line, next stop is 21st Street."
People wanting 21st get on, people wanting QP get off.
Now, somewhere between Roosevelt and 36th the problem is corrected and Control says "Go normal. Now we're stoping at Queensboro Plaza. I've got a load of people now who want 21st and aren't going there and I kicked off those who wanted QP. On the other hand not making the annoucement and going 63rd, I'd just have a bunch of PO'd passengers for QP and 53rd.
Whether that's what this 3 C/R was doing, I don't know, but I know a lot of C/R's I know play it this way. Same thing about the "slower speed". Why tell customers there is a delay, when you're not even sure yet that there will be one? Then you're putting the idea in their head there was a delay when there wasn't one, and therefore, they'll be pretty unhappy.
The signal problems SOUTH of Wall st. started around 8 A.M.
"9:30 a.m. today" That is the time that everything was supposed to go normal according to the information control got from signals, so the C/R most likely didn't know if:
1. He was going to Brooklyn
2. He was going around the Ferry
3. He was going to be turned at Chambers.
so instead of giving misinformation he waited until he was sure.
That "signal problem" lasted until about 6pm yesterday evening. It went from signal problem to broken rail condition. I kept saying Downtown express all the way down and Im glad I did.....
....we discharged at Chambers and went lite around the Ferry.
Da Beastmaster
We had fun on the Lex Line at 5PM we had a smoke condition at Boro Hall on the Lex and a stalled uptown #4 at 125 St. Then around 6PM we had to Broken rail at 14 Street on TK 1. After that was clearing sick customer at 125 N/B. Just one of those days.
[We had fun on the Lex Line at 5PM we had a smoke condition at Boro Hall on the Lex]
Couldn't have been me...I was fresh out of Cohibas. :)
I cleared at 12:25 P.M. so after that I could care less.
This is why people hold doors.
It is very easy to sit back and say that those people should just "wait for the next train". But, EVERYBODY has a story like this.
The people who hold doors aren't "idiots", nor even acting inconsiderately. They have a very good reason for this behavior -- they are simply behaving naturally, based on their experience, such as that which is described above.
(You wanna talk about inconsiderate idiots? Try the door-BLOCKERS, the seat-hoggers, and, most of all, the shouting, preaching morons. These are people with no reasonable basis for their ugly, rude behavior. They are the ones who deserve all of the wrath that is misdirected toward people who hold doors -- and then some!)
Ferdinand Cesarano
The 5 is running express again. The TA site still says not until next week.
YAAAAAAAAAAY...I found this out today on my way home...I was soo happy.
I hope C/R's made good announcements at 3rd Ave, or else a lot of local passengers were in for a nasty surprise.
Major GO on the 4 line for the next three weekends. No service btwn Woodlawn and 161-YS. Service should be as follows:
4: Service btwn Utica/New Lots and 149St-GC.
Shuttle: Service btwn 149 and 161-YS. At 161, passengers will have to transfer to the D train for continuing service north.
Shuttle bus: Btwn Woodlawn and Bedford Park Blvd on the D. The shuttle bus will stop at Mosholu Parkway.
I guess they are trying to get the work in b4 the Yanks start to play.
Da Beastmaster
They also have that GO on the 3.
3 runs in two sections.
From New Lots to Utica and from Utica to 148. So 3 and 4 trains are using Utica as a terminal next weekend.
You don't know how great this is. So many crews are now spared the misery of three trips on the two workhorses of the IRT. The 3 and 4 lines.
Nope next weekend the 3 will be using Utica as a terminal while the 4 uses Atlantic Av as it's terminal.That's how it alway's is when the 3 ends at Utica.
Wrong! Both the 3 and 4 are using Utica as a terminal. This GO was done already a couple of months ago. As a bonus, the southbound 3 is express btwn Atlantic and Utica(reason why the 4 is not terminating at Atlantic). The 2 will be the only Bklyn local southbound. The 4 will be terminating at Utica all weekend. This is for the ongoing station rehab at Utica IRT station, which is coming along very well.
Da Beastmaster
Interesting,I didn't think Utica could handle both the 3&4 trains ending there.
I thought the 2 and 5 were IRT's workhorses.
The #2 Maybe but never the #5 Line.
OK, then the 2 and the 4. It's gotta be the 2 and the 4.
"Never", the number 5 line? It's a workhorse. It's a miserable place for extra list T/O's. Jobs that start at New Lots and finish at Dyre or 180. Jobs that start at Flatbush, finish at Dyre, with a layup to 180 for OT. Jobs that last nearly 10 hours.
The 2 line is easy now that it's express in Manhattan again. I'd love to work that line more often. Same for the 1 line.
what about the jobs that end at 238(or 241) you get a long lunch break
They don't end at 238. You sign-on at New Lots and do a put-in. Then you go to 238, clean out your train, and bring it to the yard. Then you deadhead to Dyre for a trip to BG. And when you get back to Dyre, don't be surprised if you get a lay-up to 180 too.
Not much cab time, but think of it this way:
I live nowhere near New Lots or Dyre. Ideally, you want to start and finish your day at the same location, so your car is waiting for you after a long day's work. Especially when you clear late at night. So where do I leave my car when I start in Brooklyn and finish in the Bronx? I have to drive to the Bronx, park my car, and deadhead all the way to Brooklyn so my car is waiting for me when I finish the day. I'd rather do my deadhead time during the day, instead of doing it late at night when 4 or 5 GO's are going on, and trains run on long headways. Hopefully, I'll get to work the West Side next pick. Everything is nice and neat over there.
1 line. All jobs start and finish at VC. And you never work more than 8 hours. There's food at the terminal that won't make you sick.
2 line. Known as "The Beast", it really isn't all that bad. Parking is easy to find at White Plains. Most jobs start and finish at the same location. And most jobs are 8 hour jobs.
3 line. The true workhorse of the West. Most jobs out of Lenox have three trips, but you'll make 9+ hrs. Good thing about Lenox is that you'll be finished before midnight. And if you work out of New Lots, you'll do just two trips and a lay-up for eight hours and be on your way home.
7 line. Most T/O's on the extra list hate this line with a passion. I like it. I used to love it, until I found out what it was like to do three trips for eight hours pay. But I'll take it over the 4, 5, or 6 lines any day.
Wasn't there one <5> job that ended at 238 that interlined with the (2)?
do you know about those special jobs that the (3) once had, when they went to E 180 or E 238, did you also have 2 hours to get back to Lenox? the (3) was almost like the (5) at one point at certain times of the day.
I love the #5 Line. If I could I would pick one of those jobs that start out of New Lots and end at Dyre. 9HRS for 1 1/2 I'll take it any day. The job I use to work before I was picked out was a 2 tripper with a half Shuttle. I loved the job but the T/O hated it because of the lay up. Also I always got off on my clearing time while my T/O sometimes had to take a train to 239 YD. Sometimes whats good for the C/R is bad for the T/O.
If your Extra it could drive you crazy on where to park the car. Last pick I had a #2 job that started at E 241 and finished at Flatbush. The few times I had to drive I would park the car around 28 Street so I would be at the half way point. That did mean leaving home 1HR early.
In terms of crowding, the 1 and 6 are the workhorses (according to 1996 statistics, the latest I've seen).
It's wonderful when riders on the D line are NEVER informed by the C/R about this G.O> before the train reaches 161st st/River Ave station. It was the case last time this 40 hour G.O. on the #4 line a few years ago. Sure helps avoiding climbing up all those stairs because the escalator to the #4 level is not working (usually is the case), and it's too crowded to fit in the elevators that are now in service (spordically). Then you have to walk BACK downstairs just to catch the next D train you were on earlier.
I'd hate to live up there and need to use the train to get around. Basically 3 trains and a shuttle bus? Is there any reason this couldn't have been run with a shuttle bus out of 149th or 161st? Seems like a real nice way to f*ck up customers weekends.
Hey when work need's to be done,it need's to be done.There's nothing you nor anyone else can do about it.The work is NECESSARY!The subway is almost 100 years old so it need to be kept maintained all over the place.So don't complain like everyone else.They complain when the subway is crumbling around them and complain when they're fixing the problem.Now that is STUPID!
Whoa, calm down bro. I'm not complaining about them doing the work, but the way they're rerouting passengers is stupid. Granted a shuttle bus may be a long ride, but 4 to 149, then shuttle train to 161, then D to Bedford Park then a shuttle bus to get to Mosholu or Woodlawn, is kind of extreme, don't you think? All I asked was there any reason they'd choose to do it that way instead of one shuttle bus from 149/GC to Woodlawn.
Figure out how long the ride is from 149/GC to Woodlawn then figure out how many buses you need for service in both directions to provide adequate service, it's alot plus paying all those drivers who are probably on OT.
Yeah, that definitely is a stupid way to carry out this G.O. Just run a shuttle bus the whole way from Woodlawn to Grand Concourse. Maybe also run an express shuttle bus, like what they did during the last five weekends with the 2/5 G.O. (glad that's over...hopefully)
The D and #4 operate only a few blocks apart from 161 St. to Bedford Park Blvd. It would be much faster than a bus, and a lot cheaper for the TA.
For passengers going to Mosholu Pkwy and Woodlawn, the TA should operate an express shuttle bus that serve these stations only, while passengers for all of the other stations could use the "D".
The setup the TA has now is just plain stupid.
What's stupid is the way the replacement service is set up. Shuttle bus to the D train to another shuttle bus to the 4 train. Think about it. Better to take a local bus to the D and take it the whole way into Manhattan or to take a Liberty Lines express bus. I took the BxM11 express bus when the 2 and 5 were suspended between GC and East 180th.
The way I dealt with the 2/5 suspension between GC and 180th was to take the express bus. It was relaxing, quiet and fast. I might even continue to use the express bus on weekends. I'm sure Liberty Lines is going to see an influx of 4 line riders on both the BxM3 and BxM4 routes.
Like BMdoobieW posted here, He, David Greenberger, and I did some railfanning yesterday which covered a few interesting GO's.
But after I left them, on my way back, I stopped at Canal Street to transfer to the J, and took some photos of the progress there. I will post some of them when I get them developed.
Just to update everyone on the progress there; It seems to be moving along quite quickly, and seems like it won't be too long. The soon to be abandoned platform there already has an abandoned feel. It seems to be getting worse by the week. The air seems heavy, and even the sound is muffled because they cement blocked closed all the pass-throughs in the curtain walls back in October. If you go to the northern 3/4 end of the platform, you can take a peek down the old queens bound "express" track, up to the point where they are building the signal rooms or whatever over the trackway in the first few feet of the trackway at the southern end. I snapped a few photos of that trackway behind the construction barricade. The construction barricade takes up easliy 3/4 of the width of most of platform, so the crowding conditions were really bad, and a real project to try to walk to the northern end of the platform. The platform, with the barricades is only about 3 feet wide.
On the Broad Street bound platform, they have now tiled over the openings where they cement blocked over the little pass throughs in the curtain wall, so the bare cement blocks are now covered, and it has a more finished look again. There will certainly be a time when you will not even be able to see or tell that there is another platform on the other side of the curtain wall.
Just four blocks from our place...
I'm not sure what time it happened, I was out in Bismarck all weekend, and then came home, I didn't *see* anything, This morning, this is what is left, so clearly they were working on it for some time. These are more than 100 car trains, and only about 20 were left here.
It has been a very cold cold snap up here with highs in the minus numbers for several days. There is a manual track switch in there somewhere, perhaps it broke while the train was riding on it, or maybe the wreck broke it. Clearly there is broken track under that wreck.
Elias
Hmmmm, a person with a coal stove could do quite well by making a visit to the scene ...
Hmmmm, a person with a coal stove could do quite well by making a visit to the scene ... and he would get plenty of it too. Just come by in a pickup truck, bring along a shovel and load the truck to capacity and drive away.
Jeff Alterman
Do coal stoves even exist anymore?
Sure do. My brother-in-law has one. He lives in Harford County, where gas doesn't exist and coal is cheaper per ton than 500 gallons of heating oil is.
(coal is cheaper per ton than 500 gallons of heating oil is.)
Um, a ton of coal is 2000 pounds of coal, while 500 gallons of heating oil is 3000+ pounds.
Further, oil produces almost twice as much heat for its weight as coal.* So unless the ton of coal is LOTS cheaper than the 500 gallons of oil, he's not getting a bargain.
*Also, by the way, oil produces the same amount of CO2 for its weight as coal while producing almost twice the heat, so coal is almost twice as bad for global warming.
Maybe you can get somebody to ship the spilled coal to your brother-in-law.
#3 West End Jeff
I've got one in my living room... one of the previous owners of my house installed it in the fireplace. Needs a new stovepipe/chimney liner, though, so I've never used it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The structural integrity of standard rail can also fail in extremely cold temperatures....so that could have played a factor.
Don't knock crowned rails ... it's how we keep our igloos warm upstate when gifts of heating rocks fall off the train. :)
What a mess! Grab your scuttles and dig in.
wayne
What a mess! Grab your scuttles and dig in.
They are cleaning up the site fairly quickly.
The Property adjacent to the tracks is owned by Bob Anderson who runs a trucking firm specializing in flat trucks and tank trucks but not box trucks... anyway... he has the contract to deliver coal to our place, and shortly after the wreck, I see one of his trucks leaving our property, having made a coal delivery to our coal bin. Had to be just concicence, we could not use that kind of coal in our heating plants, and the ballast mixed in with it would not do our stoakers and augers any good!
Many coal (or should I say ex-coal) cars were stacked on their sides awaiting removal, there were several dozzers and backhoes stacking the spilled coal for salvage (I presume). On the track to the west of the accident was a train with stacks of pannel tracks and several hoppers of ballast.
There was a BNSF policeman on the scene keeping an overview of the site, and while no one from town seemed to want to walk too close to the site, he made no effort to stop or question anyone from taking pictures from the public roads and parking lots. He had North Dakota plates on his squad car, and I presume he has state aprobation as a peace officer, in which case, he could even stop speeders on the interstate if he wanted to, but of course, that is not what BNSF pays him for.
A fairly professional approach to reopening the line. This is the former NP main line from MLPS to Spokane.
Elias
>>>...is owned by Bob Anderson ...<<<
Boy, he sure gets around. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There were some interesting G.O.'s apparently either left out by signage or there is no coordination among them.
1. The E train was diverted over (depending of time of day), the F or R line. So during the midnight hours, you can take the E to Whitehall and catch the ferry, right? WRONG!!! Despite directions to the contrary, E trains cannot go past Canal Street, because another G.O. on the R and W lines (in this case, it's only the W line running at that time.), forced S/B trains over the Manny-B. So from City Hall to Rector, there is no S/B service, but NYCT misleads it's customers in telling them the E is running to Whitehall St. overnight.
2. The Weekend Service Changes poster ommitted two inportant items. One is the W line to Manhattan was running over the N line, AND there is no N train service this past weekend. (Fred is always right when they treat the Sea-Beach line as second-fiddle.) Worse yet, only one or two C/R's on the Q line correctly stated NOT to identify the N line as a transfer point.
3. See these items, this will happen this coming weekend (3/14 to 3/17):
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/11_wma.pdf
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/11_wsh.pdf
So this is very perplexing, the W to Manhattan runs on the N (same as this past weekend), BUT shuttle buses replace W service between 36th st and Ninth Avenue in Brooklyn. DUH!!! So getting to Sesame Street is easier than this. Again, no N service for the next two weekends.
One is the W line to Manhattan was running over the N line,
?? The N doesn't run to Manhattan on weekends and hasn't since 9/22/02. The W runs to Manhattan on the W on weekends.
I was referring to the portion on the W line between Coney Island and 36th st in Brooklyn. Manhattan-bound W trains run on the N line in Brooklyn. Sorry for any confusion.
No you got it all wrong.Again the TA is misleading passengers.They got shuttle buses running between 9Av and 36 St that means the W is gonna be running over the Sea Beach in BOTH DIRECTIONS! There's gonna be a shuttle train running between 9Av and CI.At CI,1 track will be for the W and the other will be for the shuttle.I went through this G.O. once before.
But the two links I provided to you directly from the NYCT web site directly contradict each other. How does one say that Manhattan bound W runs on the N line this weekend and the other does NOT say that the W runs on the N line in both directions due to the shuttle bus in Sunset Park?
What can I say,that's how the TA is.And I know its gonna happen cause the last time it did,what I said before happened.You should know that when there is gonna be a shuttle bus between 2 station's that there will be no train service between those 2 station's in either direction.So that GO on the website saying only Manhattan bound W's are running over the Sea Beach is way past false.They should remove that and in the GO notice that mention's the shuttle bus service say that the W will be running over the N in both direction's.But knowing them,they won't do that and then this weekend there's gonna be mass confusion.I think I'm gonna go down there and help all those poor confused rider's out.I'm getting tired of the TA not providing ACCURATE info on thier GO notices.
NYCT management are a buch of lazy bums with no oversight, One fine case is the inability to monitor a contractor working on a station:
Just every weekend when the #4 line runs on the local track in Brooklyn from Franklin to Atlantic Aves in both directions, I've observed signs at the passageway of Atlantic Ave (confirmed, the yellow signs are printed by the contractor), indicating "4 AND 5 TO MANHATTAN" and "4 AND 5 TO NEW LOTS AND FLATBUSH AVE." with directional arrows to the local platforms. I ask myself one question: How many NYCT station supervisors pass by that area and just ignore this retarded mistake? The 5 does not run in Brooklyn on weekends, let alone nights and mid-days.
anyone ever taken the LIRR Hamptons Reserve Service? Hows it like? What cars do they use? modified c3?
Nope, same cars that are used for everyone else, not modifications what so ever.
Well, not really a modification, but they usually use the c-3s with bar areas and that extra luggage section on the lower level. But you can get those at random on regular lines (sans the bar attendant).
Two stories from fjord-land, courtesy of the Times:
Nina Mehlum Groenland loves dear old dad, but having him as roommate isn't the 25-year-old Norwegian's idea of keeping family ties close.
One classified ad on the Internet later and Odd Kristiansen, 52, may not have found a new home, but definitely a renewed sense of interest from several nice women.
``Giving away my daddy to a good-natured lady in Trondheim,'' Groenland's electronic ad read. ``Daddy is tall, dark, slim and in his best age. I'm sick of him since he is living in my house. Furniture included.''
A flying sheep's head hit a concertgoer and fractured his skull at a concert of metal band Mayhem.
The band, part of Norway's death metal music scene, was carving up a dead sheep as part of its stage act when the animal's head flew off lead singer Maniac's knife and struck Per Kristian Hagen, 25.
Guess it's time to remind people...
This board can be used for discussions of rail transit
systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics,
but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only.
If you HAVE to start a thread with "Off topic" -- don't post it.
Go to www.nycrail.com/lirr and check out the first pic.It show's a new car of M-7's along with a R142 5 car set on the same delivery train over the Fresh Pond Junction.There's something on that first pic that made me laugh.I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what it is.The only car I saw on that R142 set was 7158.So I guess that was taken when 7158-7162 was being delivered.
Yeah, I saw that pic the day before...and I found it REALLY funny...(psst, not saying anything about what V train and I are referring to...) Anyway, take a look and don't laugh too hard...
I saw that earlier. Seems destined for the "Found Porn" section of Maxim magazine.
CG
Those photo's are 8 Days old.
Only people with their minds in the gutter would find it funny. That particular "item" has been around railroads since the year of the flood...
Humping is a daily occurance is the world of Class 1 railroading. My father used to work for a prominant east coast Class 1 railroad, and so I've been to many a hump yard. Besides the cars in the photo, I believe autoracks (railroad cars that transport automobiles) are also not supposed to be humped and say so with spray painted stencils all over them. When you want to slow down a humped car you use a retarder.
Many years ago, I used to drive for a company that transported Conrail crews. Visited the Oak Island Hump many times.
Peace,
ANDEE
Where's Selkirk, usually he would have had some kind of comment about this....
Seriously though, Many years ago I took a trip to then Conrail's Allentown, PA yard. If anyone wants to see some serious humping, that's a good place to go. It just amazed me that these heavy boxcars were just "freefalling" down the tracks. I actually have a small cardboard sign that I found on the tracks there that says, "Do not Hump", and yes I believe auto racks are some of the cars that are not supposed to be humped.
On a smaller scale, Fresh Pond yard (NY&A) also can hump. I've seen them do it along Otto Road in Glendale a few times.
Sorry for going over the fence, guys ... insanity of workload here (and too much political gasbaggery in some other threads) required me to stand down a bit and put my time elsewhere. Just threw in a comment a few slots back. Still gotta knock a consist together regardless, only a matter of HOW you do it. :)
In our forever sanitized world, the term is "classification" ... "humping" sounds like we're having too much fun. :)
"DO NOT HUMP" loads are a real pain in the butt, because you have to kiss them at 2 MPH or lower, a speed that makes your motors a bit cranky. But it's pretty much the same except the "humpee" is stationary.
I once photographed a "Do Not Hump" sign on an Amtrak SLEEPER car!! (Talk about defeating the purpose.)
Scan it, upload it, and send me a link!
O_o
Does anyone know what the number on the tow means? It's MTTX 95322.
MTTX is the reporting marks for the flatcar on which the M-7 is being transported. The 95322 is the actual car number of the flat.
As a general rule, any railroad car reporting marks ending in "X" indicate that it is a private, non-railroad entity owning the piece of equipment. All the stuff with the last three letters being "TTX" are Trailer Train Corporation -- the first letter designated a certain type of car.
Just wanted to post what is probably (due to lack of time) the last render I'll be making of 59 St-2 Av. It didn't come out so great because the piece of crap called "Norton SystemWorks" has a tendency to crash my computer when the render's about 2/3 to 3/4 done (cutting off the bottom), but there's enough there.
http://groups.msn.com/GoumbasNYCSubwayPhotos/secondavenueproject.msnw?Page=1
From today's Times:
Railroad workers who have a noncancerous illness because of exposure to asbestos on the job can recover damages for mental torment over the prospect of actually getting cancer itself, the Supreme Court ruled today.
Good.
Another slam dunk for the Supreme Court!
And they've been so darn reasonable lately. Look like Scalia & co. threw the lawyer lobby a bone.
How is that junk? It sides with the workers.
"How is that junk? It sides with the workers"
Actually, it doesn't. It sides with trial attorneys who want to get paid now. In my opinion, it may be very harmful to those workers who eventually develop real diseases from their exposure to asbestos.
A huge problem with Asbestos is that the money is starting to run out, but the diseases associated with it are real and have huge future costs. Many (probably most) of the cases have already manifested, but there will likely be tens of thousands more cases of mesothelioma to actually develop over the next 20 years.
Most of the primary manufacturers have been bankrupted by the liability involved, and the huge insurance limits for those manufacturers have been pretty much exhausted. As the lawyers try and bring in more and more defendants (an advertising agency that created ads for asbestos, a holding company that owned an asbestos manufacturer for 3 weeks) it gets tougher and tougher to find liability and get access to company assets and insurance limits.
If the limited remaining dollars are spent on those who simply are afraid they might develop an illness, there may not be enough left to pay the medical costs and compensate the "pain and suffering" for someone who develops meso 10 years from now.
Worse, someone who accepts a $10,000 settlement to compensate their "fear of asbestos disease" today will likely have to forfeit all future claims -- meaning that if they do actually develop the disease they'll have no further recovery available to them.
CG
Although this topic is only loosely related to the general content on the boards, I'll respond anyhow because I think your legal analysis to be suspect, especially as it relates to the case just decided by the Supreme Court.
It is a given that the plaintiffs in these cases have been exposed to asbestos, and even the defendant railroad concedes that its former employees suffer from asbestosis. So this is not a case where there is just mental anguish standing alone, but real suffering brought on by an injury in fact, namely the asbestosis that the defendant concedes exists.
Moreover, the railroad did not choose to attack the jury verdict in a manner that might have succeeded, i.e., by trying to show that there were mitigating factors like cigarette smoking; rather it sought, overly ambitiously considering prior cases decided, and categorically, to bar any and all claims once asbestosis was shown, and not to challenge the evidence supporting the diagnosis and treatment, or that there was real mental anguish. That's poor legal strategy by the railroad, not bad law.
There is also another vein in which this is relevant, and that ia that the railroad workers know that they are at much increaeed risk for cancer, and need to be tested for that more frequently, which of course, costs alot of money that insurers don't like to pay and usually respond to with, "Okay. When you get cancer we'll probably pay to treat it, but all these office visits beforehand to catch the trouble before it starts-we think that's too much."
I'm not at all versed in the facts of this case (as you were obviously able to tell).
My comments were more geared toward the general direction of the asbestos lawsuit industry. At this point it appears that even the ABA believes that the actions of some of the asbestos litigation mills are doing more harm than good to those who will ultimately be harmed by asbestos exposure.
As a side note, it's worth noting that the railroad admitting that their former employees suffer from asbestosis. The only symptom of asbestosis is shortness of breath after exertion. The level of exertion can vary, but asbestosis on its own is hardly a debilatating disease. Settlements for asbestosis today are less than they were years ago and are also likely to require a waiver of future asbestos related claims (which they didn't back in the 80's).
A railroad worker (or anyone) with a valid claim for asbestosis would do themselves much good by seeking a second legal opinion before settling. Too many cases are being settled today that are short-sighted in nature.
>>> The only symptom of asbestosis is shortness of breath after exertion. The level of exertion can vary, but asbestosis on its own is hardly a debilatating disease. <<<
You should say that shortness of breath after exertion is the only early symptom of asbestosis. It is an incurable and irreversible disease. One can slow its progress by not irritating the lungs by smoking, or introducing other irritants, but it cannot be cured. It not only increases the chances of lung cancer, but can be fatal by itself also. Since it takes 20 to 30 years to manifest itself, and the authorities became conscious of the dangers to the point of banning its use in the ‘70s, there should be a diminishing number of new cases. For this reason, the funds available in asbestos settlements are meant for those exposed prior to 1980, and it is understandable that those in an occupation exposed back then, even though they have no symptoms, would have enough of fear of having the disease to deserve some (lesser) compensation.
Tom
We don't know all the legal ins and outs and probably shouldn't judge yet. Upshot is, you can receive asbestos damages until the manufacturers run dry. If that means we have to be more careful next time we roll out the next "wonder chemical" that's going to save us from having to consume less, I'm all for it. The inventor of the next asbestos brake pad *should* be scared.
And hence, we are not really likely to see anything like asbestos any time soon. Wonder why new chemicals, mechanical composites, and drugs cost so much now? Testing. Just remember that before complaining about how much new drugs/materials cost, the companies now know they have to make sure the stuff is safe first.
---10 March 2003 (New York, NY)---
Subway service on the "F" Line was suspended this afternoon in the wake of a two alarm fire at the Second Avenue station located at Houston and Second Avenue in lower Manhattan. Fire Department officials are reporting that three firefighters were injured in the blaze. The fire appears to have begun around 1:00PM, forcing suspension of "F" Line train service between Jay Street in Brooklyn and 34th Street in Manhattan. Conditions of the firefighters are unknown. One was being treated at New York Hospital, while two others were taken to St. Vincent's Hospital.
Update:
Four firefighters now reported as having been injured.
Service on the F and V lines was shifted to the A and E lines.
Newsday now reporting 11 firefighters injured.
CG
The latest:
F service running somewhat normal but bypassing 2nd Ave station in both directions
V service is turned at 34th st/6th Ave, or may run lite from 34th st to West 4th st and relay on express track.
Grand Street shuttle only running between B'way Lafayette and Grand St., no service to West 4th st.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-subfire0311,0,4942929.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
You know, between this and the blaze a few years ago at the Bergen interlocking, I'm starting to think the 'F' in the F train stands for "fire."
It's that "blazing" speed through the Rutgers tunnel.
:0)
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=28493
Again they bring it up, I guess its the stuff that really doens't matter that they won't let rest.
How long do you think Bloomy would put up with that riding to work before he puts an end to it all (cel phone ban on the subway). Then again he didn't have the balls to put into effect a law against phones in movie theaters, said too many people would be against it.
Just think, longer dwell times because someone's holding the doors while talking to their friend who is upstairs yelling into his phone "hold the doors!" Fun.
I wonder what the market would be like for a cel phone jamming device...
«I wonder what the market would be like for a cel phone jamming device... »
Using those devices would be illegal without FCC permission as the band is licenced.
Arti
I wonder what the market would be like for a cel phone jamming device...
Using those devices would be illegal without FCC permission as the band is licenced.
Buildings can be designed in a way that thwarts cell phone reception. It's been claimed that some of the lower-priced Disney World hotels are like that, the better to get people to use (non-lower-priced) hotel telephones. And I've noticed that my cell phone loses its signal just a few feet inside the door of my local Wal-Mart.
The are cell phones not cel phones, in any event, jambing devices for them are used in other countries, such as Japan. They are not legal here.
But, then again, LAWS CAN BE CHANGED!
Elias
That would be 'jamming devices' not 'jambing devices' - unless you really do mean something that will stick the phone into a door frame. 8-)
: ) You framed me with that one : )
Maybe I can put some on my toast!
Ooch! Damned Doctors of Liturgical Letters. :)
It could be worse - they might have a Doctorate of Renowned Knowledge.
Nah, ya gotta take school car to get one of those. :)
Boston's MBTA let an RFP to wire the subway for wireless. No company responded with a proposal... too costly and not enough potential return on investment.
Ya, and the law will pass us cost onto the consumer with higher cell phone costs.
Oh yippee. I was going through bills today and was amazed that on a $29.99/mo cellular phone plan I pay $8 on top of that in taxes. Not looking foward to seeing a "SUBWAY ACC CHG".
Bring back the R-10s and then dare any cellphone user to even try and talk while the train's in motion.
"Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now..."
[Just think, longer dwell times because someone's holding the doors while talking to their friend who is upstairs yelling into his phone "hold the doors!"]
There's a wonderful technological development in place to avoid the need to hold doors. It's called THE NEXT TRAIN.
The date for the infamous $2 subway fare increase. I apologize if this news was already posted. (Not counting merely the articles about a fare increase.)
BTW, what is the annual fiscal year budget for the MTA? $1.1 billion in deficit seems a little much. I've seen a breakdown on MTA's website for the subway portion, but not for the entire company.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
(Answers would be greatly appreciated.)
NYC's controller and others would appreciate the answers too.
Can we still use our $4 day Pass after 5/4?
(Can we still use our $4 day Pass after 5/4?)
I sure hope so, but I doubt we'll get a straight answer from anyone till the last minute.
Speaking of the FunPass, what does it look like? Does anyone know the final price of the FunPass after the fare increase?
(Does anyone know the final price of the FunPass after the fare increase? )
Daily News says $7, and I haven't heard different from anyone else. That's why they're the most worth hoarding - a 175% increase.
You mean a 75% increase.
As for what they look like, they look like any other MetroCard. All the standard pay-per-rides and unlimiteds are encoded on the same card stock.
(You mean a 75% increase.)
Oops. I'm getting as careless as some of the newspaper reporters we make fun of.
Imagine my surprise at 2:15 this afternoon. I'm driving up Hamilton Avenue over the Gowanus Canal when I look to my right and see this:
What's that yellow car in the middle that's being obscured ? Looks like a signal dolly to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess these Birds may be converted to C Division work cars.
A nomination for the 2004 calendar? :)
Incidentally, those are mainline cars -- look at the windows. Including the one at the south end. If I had to guess, I'd say they're R-33's (they seem to have black stripes under the car numbers).
I heards that 6 R29, and 8 R33ML were saved for the Signal dolly train
Are they restoring the elevated structure, or did they just throw up that black shit to stop the concrete from raining down? It looks horrible...
Yes they have been working on the entire elevated for over two years now. They even have fences for grade seperation between local and express tracks.
Geesh, doesn't the TA know they can cause an accident by doing something like this?
It's good to know there will be some in work train service (and in red). They even have yellow striped ends.
Nice catch. And you weren't even fishing.
---Brian
Please tell me that either you weren't driving the car, or that someone else took the picture.
Pssst, he has three hands. It's quite alright, he is well trained with it.
---Brian
But seriously... do you chaps carry a camera EVERYWHERE you go?
WHO KNEW the 'berger could DRIVE!! :^)
---Brian
1SF9
Sortie. :^)
The light was red. As was the train.
Why is it that when you select Get New Card->Pay Per Ride or Refill Card on the MVM, the refill options given to you are in multiples of $5? Who's going to buy a card for exactly $5? It won't leave you with a whole number of fares until you've put in $15 and you won't get a bonus (unlike putting in $15 at once). Plus that onscreen keypad is difficult, they should allow the use of the ATM keypad for entering a custom value.
I had to buy a $3.00 card today. I think $3.00 should be a default option for card buying, not an "Other Amount." Also $6.00 and $3.00, instead of $5, $10 and $15.
But since the fare is going up to $2, they should switch to multiples of two.
I was waiting for it, eventually somebody else had to ask why NYC's redbirds were being dumped way down by Delaware and South Carolina. Right now NJscuba.net has a special announcement about some New Jersey politicians and divers group that are trying to get some cars for our coastlines.
Looks like if all goes well some R38s or R40s could have a considerably shorter trip to pasture (on the abyssal plain of course) than their redbird siblings if some people have their way. Someday there will have to be a Sub(surface)Talk field trip to visit the PATH K-cars on the Sea Girt artificial reef.
Surprisingly they're saying that Asbestos isn't a big deal, and that, "The cleanliness issue isn't disputed by anyone since there’s a protocol that must be observed for such sinkings." Apparantly there's two groups who have been blocking the shipment of the 250 redbirds earmarked for NJ, because they don't want to see the New Jersey coast line 'defiled' by New York subway cars, despite the fact that they'll be miles off the coast, under nearly a hundred feet of water.
Any thoughts?
Doh, I was hoping by the title that New Jersey would be asking for the redbirds to use in service.
I guess I should know better than that, but hey, as long as we're dumping them into the water and helping the sealife, we might as well do that up here near ourselves also.
The two groups are the reason the Redbirds weren't reefed off New Jersey in the first place, because they cried loud enough that the asbestos was going to give area fish lung cancer or something like that and it scared the local politicians enough so they backed away from the deal.
Now that Deleware and South Carolina have cleared a path for a few pols from the Garden Stateto re-examine their position and push McGreevy to change his.
The fact that the story ends by saying no asbestos problems have been found in areas where WWII vessels were reefed 60 years ago shows how paranoid the two special interest groups were in the first place to block the original Redbird deliveries (unless of course they're actually holding out for the possible early scrapping of the R-44 cars, as mentioned in another thread, which would allow fish off the Jersey coast to have far more luxurious reef facilities than their Deleware or Carolina counterparts...)
[Apparantly there's two groups who have been blocking the shipment of the 250 redbirds earmarked for NJ, because they don't want to see the New Jersey coast line 'defiled' by New York subway cars, despite the fact that they'll be miles off the coast, under nearly a hundred feet of water.]
I thought those groups were afraid of the subway's criminal element.
"Looks like if all goes well some R38s or R40s could have a considerably shorter trip to pasture (on the abyssal plain of course) than their redbird siblings if some people have their way.""
I doubt the R-38's and 40's will be reefed. I was told they don't have the asbestos problem the carbon steel cars have.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct (probably)
1) The stainless steel is far more valuable than the carbon steel
2) The absence of asbestos makes salvage and recycleage a more reasonable possibility.
3) BTW: It is the age of the cars not the fact that they are carbon steel or stainless steel that dictate if the have asbestos in them. What year was asbestos outlawed? Is there asbestos in the R32s?
Elias
"3) BTW: It is the age of the cars not the fact that they are carbon steel or stainless steel that dictate if the have asbestos in them. What year was asbestos outlawed? Is there asbestos in the R32s?"
I don't know when asbestos was outlawed. I was invited at Morrison-Knudsen back when the R-32s were overhauled. Isaw one car with a toally stripped interior. Everythng but the cabs were removed. The inside of a stripped R-32 looks much like the exterior. All you see is the fluted stainless steel. There was no insulation, asbestos or fiberglass to be seen. In fact, the car probably looked like it did back in 1964 at the Budd Co plant. A body shell awaiting an interior.
Hope this answers your question.
Bill "Newkirk"
"What year was asbestos outlawed?"
1973
So then the R-46 would probably be asbestos-free.
I was in Boston for a brief visit yesterday, and was surprised to see only Type 7s running on the C line. Did they move them all to the D, which has always run a combination of Type 7s and Boeings? I know the C line used to run a couple of type 7s during rush hour, but other than that it was all Boeings as far as I remember. -Nick
Every time I visit Boston, I see Boeings on the C and Kinkis on the other branches. Railroad.net has a thread on Boeings on the D branch. There's also some speculations that the Bredas have been running on the B branch and may finally re-enter service soon. Who knows when...
Interesting, thanks for the info. I'll have to check out that thread on railroad.net -Nick
Type 7s in the 3600 series cannot run on the D/Riverside line until new "bolts" are installed following the near-failure of an articulation joint about two months ago. So the D/Riverside line is running Boeing LRVs and Type-7s in the 3700 series. The C/Cleveland Circle line has the Type-7s in the 3600 series (lower running speeds on that and the B and E lines).
The Type 8s have been in testing with increased frequency recently (both daytime and nighttime), and rumors abound they will show up in revenue service in the near future. Hey, it has only been five years and 1-1/2 months since the first car showed up on the property!
More info:
Type 8 roster page
Type 8 history
Hey Fred, here is an item of clothing that will interest you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3405474151&category=2998
OOOO! A hat with N train logo. I bet Fred will be the proxy bidder on this one. Right Fred? HEHE
That would go nicely with his t-shirt!
Learn to link!
I wonder what this guy will get considering oyu can buy them at the Museum Store. Its definitely not a rare piece of memorabilia that should get a high price.
Now the baseball caps, they never seem to have them in stock. Been trying on and off the past few weeks to get N and R hats. Finally I gave up and got an A... *sigh*
Fred has a custom-made blue cap with "#4 Sea Beach Fred" embroidered on it. He is also having a new Brooklyn Dodger cap made.
At about 8:00 PM, my northbound F was held at 36th Street Interlocking for several minutes to let TWO northbound E's pass in front - then we were switched to the LOCAL track "due to congestion" on the express track. What happened?
Exactly what they said. Those two (who knows maybe more) E trains were probably late, and due to the backlog of trains they threw the F on the local.
I noticed QBP's been doing that a lot more lately. I don't know how well it works out though, haven't ridden any of the QB trains in a while.
It seems the Tower has been favoring the E lately at 36 Junction,9 times out of 10 if there is an E at QP and an F approaching 36 The E will go first.If anyone has noticed they have even started putting the Holding lights on at Queensbridge to make sure the wait in the hole isnt that long.Also As of Late the F train is running around 50/50 between R46 and R 32 during the Rushhours.Today alone I saw 6 R 32 F in less than 1 hour going southbound at 34 st.Also Anyone at Jamacia Yard will tell you the Bonnet painting OF the 46's has begun full throttle with 40 cars a week going in for the painting.
More R46 cars are out of service than normal due to SMS work being done at CIYD main shop.
[It seems the Tower has been favoring the E lately at 36 Junction,9 times out of 10 if there is an E at QP and an F approaching 36 The E will go first.]
The tower must be controlled by the E superintendent.
Not only that, but its controlled by computer.
If the F was going to go local anyway, why did it have to wait for the two E's to pass first?
Lousy tower operators. I've been putting up with them for 22 years. Thank goodness I'll be off the road at the end of next month.
It was big mess today on 2 Ave. Eventually, some idiotic jerk committed arson on the second ave station forcing TA to reroute F on the A line and terminate V on west 4. WTC E station was piled up with serval E trains coming in/out one after another every second. And C runs express on the A through Manhattan. The 6 was jammed packed with F and V riders. On the about 8 - 10 fire trucks and serval police blocked houston and allen street create huge traffic jamed and detouring M15 bus. Wow! Such a mess.
Oh here it is http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_031003_subwayfire.html
Learn to link!
Thanks
As a result of the slow speed area/GO around Roosevelt Av (a diamond crossover switch is being replaced on the express tracks), a supplement schedule is in effect for the E and F lines. 2 minutes are added to the running times in rush hours, 1 minute offpeak. When there's more "congestion" than normal (it usually takes me 10 minutes more to move my F's on the express track between 21 St and Roosevelt Av in the PM rush), F trains are placed on the local track. In addition, the supplement calls for quite a few F's to go local. The GO is expected to end on the 31st.
[When there's more "congestion" than normal (it usually takes me 10 minutes more to move my F's on the express track between 21 St and Roosevelt Av in the PM rush), F trains are placed on the local track. In addition, the supplement calls for quite a few F's to go local.]
I understand all that. What still doesn't make sense is why a train coming out of 63rd Street, which can be put on either the local or express track (each without interfering with the other) must wait for two expresses before going to the local track.
Around 6PM, there seem to have been hardly ANY "V" trains running. I got an Uptown "F" at Bway Lafayette (that station reeked of smoke smell too!), and it went to Queens via. 53 ST!!!! Tony
Wouldn't it have made sense to run one of those two E trains local and the F train express? The F is the longer run and one E and one F express serves more people than two E's.
The recent posts here about the demise of the Redbirds reignited fear in my heart. That, along with the fact that it was a beautifully sunny day today, made me want to head up to the Bronx to catch some Redbird action on film.
I left work 10 minutes early, ran over to the Lex, and headed uptown. Unfortunatly, I didn't make it north of Yankee Stadium before sunset. But don't fret, this story has a happy ending.
As I was on my new-tech piece of garbarge (6) train, stopped at 33rd St, what should slowly pass on the nb express track but a REDBIRD (4) train! I was like OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! So I begged and prayed that this stinkin (6) would make the meet at Grand Central and it did! The (6) actually got there first, but that was just beginner's luck. So I ran into the lead 'Bird, which was R-33ML 9261. The lady hogg'in the railfan window (she was riding it backwards, grrrr) got off at 86th St and I scooted on up. We were stuck behind some slow moving new-tech'er for most of the trip so we didn't hit any real fast speeds. But I don't mind, it was a great ride.
We got up into the light around 6:10pm, which was 17 minutes after sunset. It was clearly too dark for a photo. So I decided to just ride my Redbird up to the end of the line, and then back down. Up near the top was another Redbird train parked on the express track. R-33ML 8841 was the sb motor. These two trainsets were the only Redbird sets I saw. We arrived at Woodlawn after a few delays of traffic backed up at the terminal. As soon as we pulled in, they announced that the train was being taken out of service and sent to the yard. I went across the platform and took the new-tech south.
One more interesting thing happened. At 149th St-GC, I changed for a sb (2) train. The car I boarded was R-142 6730. The automated announcements were correct and the LED's on the ceiling were correct, but the strip maps were about 7 stations behind. When I detrained at 96th Street, the strip maps said we were at Jackson Ave. Has anyone else ever seen the strip maps disagree with the LED's (during normal operation, not a G.O. or route change)?
All in all, a fun day was had by all. I encourage all of you to shed your inhibitions, throw caution into the wind, and go hug a Redbird. In a very short time, the 'Birds will fly away.
Take Pride,
Brian
In a very short time, the 'Birds will fly away.
Actually, these 'Birds will sink.
Ever seen the movie "Free Willy"? There's still hope that these 'Birds will fly.
---Brian
Isn't that considered littering our earth's precious water? --And PETA will get them for killing fish ;)
R142 6730 on the 2...sounds like a set from the 5. Was the strip map from the 5 by any chance?
I'm gonna have to plead the 5th on that one because answering truthfully might incriminate me as being a blabbering fool... Honestly, I don't know, but I hope I would have noticed the green 5 on the strip map if it was a set from the 5...
While on the 5 train last night going exp in the Bronx,we passed by a 2 train with a 5 train strip map.I didn't quite get the number but I think it was a 67XX.
>>>>While on the 5 train last night going exp in the Bronx,we passed by a 2 train with a 5 train strip map.<<<
Oh, pray tell...How could you see the strip map from another train? The way I figure it you must've been standing on your head.
Inquring minds have to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
You gotta be blind not to notice it especially when the train you pass is not even 10ft away from the train your on.At the speed we were going,I was still able to tell it was a 5 strip map cause I saw it was green and I saw the 5 on it too!SO DON'T QUESTION WHAT I SEE YA HEAR ME!?
YEAH YEAH, whatever.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is - I've been on 6730 before and it has 5 line maps. I wish they'd put the higher-numbered R142s on the 2 because they have the correct announcements.
Let's never speak of this again.
Why?
Count your blessings. If the Redbirds are in fact all gone by summer, it would mean I'll never see them again.
Sure you will... you'll come to Branford and pay homage to 6688 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It won't be a Redbird any more; we'll have repainted it yellow with black stripes ;^)
It will be resurrected as Car 6895?
Warning .. shameless plug alert!
And remember ... you can always catch these videos to catch all the Redbirds you missed :)
--Mark
With all due respect, I don't consider 6688 to be a true Redbird. Although it was painted Fox Red while still in service, it never went through GOH the way the real Redbirds did.
I agree it's better than nothing. At least it looks and runs great.
It'd look strange in that old TA dark (almost black) green ... still, glad to have it no matter what Earl Scheib hath wrought. :)
The R-17s were originally maroon. I've seen pictures of them in which they appear to be olive drab, but that could be nothing more than caked-on dirt and grime.
Well, certainly ain't qualified to argue that. I know the 19's and higher came in maroon, but I could SWEAR that back in the 60's, when they got washed somehow it was a darkish, almost black green when the enamel of the paint was exposed from under the grit, though most looked like this ...
While some of the REPAINTS when the later cars came in looked like this:
But I certainly won't argue ...
When I was a kid....the 'Army Trains.' CI Peter
hey, long time no see!
Yeah, one disadvantage of the time is that none of us *KNEW* what color the trains REALLY were, they were all RUST colored. :)
That first picture .. the roll signs are black lettering on a white background - was that common? I don't think it was ...
--Mark
True, that is an interesting picture. Looks like decals to me. Maybe it was a test train, or someone playing with Photoshop?
Peace,
ANDEE
That looks like Photoshop to me on the 7 train photo.
They appear to be pasted on.
Never saw anything like that myself. But the photo came from HERE though (check the link address) and it looks VERY fake.
6698 is wearing the original maroon finish. 6609 at the Transit Museum is also sporting its original maroon color.
Take your word for it. I thought that the R16's and R17's all came in the SAME color - that's what I'd remembered, more like here:
http://www.tmny.org/tmny6398.html
The R-16s were originally finished in olive drab. The R-17s broke away from this trend with their maroon finish. AFAIK they were the only cars ever to be painted maroon.
The R-16s were originally finished in olive drab. The R-17s broke away from this trend with their maroon finish. AFAIK they were the only cars ever to be painted maroon.
Check that - the R-15s were also maroon, but with a cream band at the belt rail.
Ah well ... shows you the brain damage all those years without car washes provided. They were all the same color once upon a time - a rusty brown with "texture" ... and later, spray paint. :)
Of course, there was a counter argument that the dirt and grime provided a protective coating. Of course, it also covered the "City of New York" lettering on the R-1/9s.
Yeah, it's truly amazing what people can be lead to believe if it's on an official letterhead. :)
Keep it a R-17 Redbird!!!! Feed it: fresh gear oil in the boxes, grease in the slack adjusters, new oil in the D4 with a new filter, caress the wheels with your hand feeling for flats and spots. Run in the brake shoes....'off the brakes' crank down and click out four or five. Wash out the crud from the load sensor valve. Wire brush the contactors in the group box. Clean points in the MCC. Check your pressures in the brake valve. Check your DCUs and lubricate the door mechs. Replace bad bulbs in head out ends...replace indication bulbs. Check for proper indication with doors closed and proper brake pipe/brake cylinder pressures. Keep it Redbird RED!!!
I'm away from this doing R142s. CI Peter
I do that although now I only seem to get them on the Flushing Line. But yes, I act as if each ride is my last one, especially on the express. Seems that whenever I see a Redbird 4 or 5, it is heading the wrong direction, goes out of service, or if I am near a terminal, don't have the time to wait for it to come back around :-(
So true, I've actually been thinking like this since August, and so far I have not been on more than one or two Redbirds (none express) since that day....very sad.
I thouroughly lucked out today. I got a Redbird 4 to Utica (S-9161-9160-9294-9295-9090-9091-9108-9109-9302-9303-N), went downstairs, and in pulled a Redbird 5 to Manhattan (N-8863-8862-8915-8914-8821-8820-9066-9067-9010-9011-S)! At least one other set passed in the opposite direction while I was on the 4.
What time was this? There weren't many out in the afternoon rush.
Today was my subway station photo marathon day. Starting at 86 on the 1/9, I went up to 215, stopping for photos at 103, 110, 116, 157, and 191. Then I wandered over to the water (no barge visible, and the only Redbirds I saw in the yard were 9218 and 9219, but two artics were posed perfectly in an otherwise empty lot adjacent to the yard). A to W4 and more photos. More at Grand, then Bowery, then Essex/Delancey, then 42/6, then 53/Madison (original IND sign), then 53/Lex. Then I got on a 6 to Canal, for a quick stop at the J/M/Z station. Back downstairs for a Q to Newkirk and back to Prospect, then the shuttle one stop and a 3 one more stop to Nostrand, followed by a short walk to President (home to an original IRT "SUBWAY" sign, at least for now), then a 2 back to Franklin and a 4 (R-62) to 125.
Phew. 4:10, and I was in the mood for a ride at the railfan window up the express track to E180. Waiting 50 minutes would have been much easier if there were a few benches on that platform! A Redbird 4 went by around the middle, but I wasn't interested.
Was it worth the wait? You bet it was!
(The 5 was the same as yours. The 4 had south motor 8862.)
Wow, what a day! I think I've ridden a redbird express up to E180,but during a G.O., not during regular service. I'll have to do that soon. Did you get any photos of the redbirds?
Two, but they didn't come out great. I was thwarted by a T/O who asked me not to take his picture, so I ended up with a picture of a train without its front end.
Definitely catch the express. Frankly, I don't think it's a phenomenal express ride (top speed was only 38), but it's unique, and it's your last chance.
Of all the T/O's on the line and the one T/O'ing the Redbird set had to be photo shy...oh well. Try again. Every day!
What time was this? There weren't many out in the afternoon rush.
From ~3:30 at Grand Central until ~4:30 at Union Square. I waited for a while at Grand Central and was just about to take the next R-62 4 that came in.
BTW, I also saw R-142 #6991-7000 on the downtown express in testing.
(The 5 was the same as yours. The 4 had south motor 8862.)
8862 was on my 5.
BTW, I also saw R-142 #6991-7000 on the downtown express in testing.
Hmm, that's strange. I am not a person that really remembers car numbers at all, but I could swear I was already on #7000 over 6 months ago! I remembered the number just because it was a cool number. If it was in testing, wouldn't that mean it just arrived? Are you sure it was 7000?
I'm sure it was 7000. Maybe it was just deadheading; it didn't make a simulated stop.
Typo. That should be 8842.
David, did you happen to see the consist with 9161 on the south end of a # 4 train? Yes I did say 9161 lol. I missd it yesterday and I kicked myself for missing it. lol.
I was at the foamerfan window on that one
No. I know for a fact that the south motor on the 4 train I saw (and passed up) was 8842, since I took a picture of it. I don't know anything else. I'd have photographic evidence of the 5's north motor had the T/O not foiled my plans.
But that's good news -- it means that at least two trains are left on the 4!
While we're on that topic, I might as well toss in these two photos that I took during the President's Day blizzard. Signal problems to the rescue!
Those two birds still look pretty good. Maybe they'll be two of the lucky ones to be kept. Are they still planning to keep 70 or so Redbirds for rush hour service?
I don't know if anything final has been decided yet, but from what I understand, without a handful of Redbirds to help out, there won't be enough cars to maintain current service requirements even once the full R-142 order is complete.
Isn't that nice....they painted the platform canopy to match....
Wow, I think I'm dizzy after that! Sounds like a lot was accomplished though.
Today I rode a redbird on the 4 train.The lead car was a car from E180St yard with a few Jerome cars mixed in.I rode it like it was the last time I'd ever ride one and see one.^.^
You've made my day. Another satisfied customer who respects his elders.
Correction.A satisfied customer who DOESN'T respect his elder's.I don't bend over and do anything that people older than me tell me to do.I don't like being told what to do and I can be nice sometimes.That only depends on thy elder's behavior toward's me.
Well, you've just lost my respect. Have a nice day.
Hey, I'm more into buses myself but I understand what you're saying. When you have a fleet of buses, or in your case, subway cars, that have been a staple in that city's transportation authortity for YEARS, you'll never truly believe that they'll go in your lifetime. It's just how we think. I rode each RTS bus in Houston like it was my last, but I never realy thought that 2092 would be my laast ride on an RTS bus. I always thought I'd have one more chance. Never did.....
The end has officially come for the R-32s at Coney Island. I rode on one train that was a 10-car set, and saw another pair that indicates the other train was transferred to Jamaica as well.
n-3622/3-3648/9-3627/6-3599/8-3638/9-s was the train I was on riding the E in Queens coming home today. I also saw 3808/9 heading the next train with a bunch of R32 Phase I cars.
#3741 F
n-3622/3-3648/9-3627/6-3599/8-3638/9-s was the train I was on riding the E in Queens coming home today. I also saw 3808/9 heading the next train with a bunch of R32 Phase I cars.
NOTE: THESE PHOTOS ARE OLD (1/9/03 and 2/15/03 respectivly) so don't accuse me of trying to disagree with you!
R-32 3627 (N)
R-32 3808 (N)
Take Pride,
Brian
Those are just memories now, of any R32s out of CI. My new favorite will be the R40Ms, but it wont match the classic look of the R32s (and their 100% stainless steel Shotwelded (r) construction). As far as that train, I was on it just Friday on the N. The transfer must have occurred over the weekend.
Shotwelded? Is that what they call it?
When will be the end of 40m's on the J and 42's on the L? Almost all of the 143's are in, but these seem to be still 2 trains of each running around.
I'm keeping my eyes peeled. Monday saw 2 trains of R40M's on the J numbered between 4530 to 4549.
One set was pulled from serivce after Rush Hour and sent to the yard. Later on I saw two 6 car transfers heading over the WillyB to CIY. I guess that they did not want to sand on four car train so they made it two six cars transfers. Also there was still one full train running when I signed off at 12:00mid.
Robert
Isn't the J and Z going to get R160's rather than R143's?
As far as I know, the J will not be getting any R143's at all. It will be getting R160's.
IINM, the L will be 100% R143,
the J will eventually become 100% R160,
and the M will be a mix of R143 and R160.
Wow, the Eastern Division looks like it will become more "assembly-line" looking than some of the IRT lines are getting with all new cars. Thank goodness for the R62-62A's on the IRT, or it would be a total wash! I used to not be too fond of the R62-62A's, but I am starting to get fonder and fonder of them as the R142's are starting to become the IRT standard.
I'm sick of every train having that unfinished metal exterior. It was nice in 1979 when grafitti covered everything and half the fleet was carbon steel cars, but today it's just to monotonous.
Thank god for the R32's. They at least have a different look.
Yes, that is another reason to love those Brightliners. Before the GOH-cyclops aspect, they were the nicest aesthetically. Even now, they still make a run for it.
Yes, that is another reason to love those Brightliners. Before the GOH-cyclops aspect, they were the nicest aesthetically.
Aren't you a little biased because of you name....ooops sorry, that's not your real name. Seriously though, I do agree. I wish they didn't change the ends on them when they were rebuilt.
Together with my favorite line, the Q, I chose my favorite rolling stock, the Brightliner. The Brightliners debuted on the Q, too. But in retrospect, I should have added my real name to the handle.
--Harry
I still wish they would bring back the blue doors. That was the R-32 trademark.
" It was nice in 1979 when grafitti covered everything and half the fleet was carbon steel cars, but today it's just to monotonous."
Are you sure about preferring car interiors covered with graffitti ?
I prefer monotony over graffitti any day!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, you misunderstood him. I believe he meant that it when everything was covered in graffiti, the shiny "monotonous" trains were a fresh welcome look, as opposed to having to ride a trashed carbon steel car, wheras now the "unfinished metal look", is just boring, as there's nothing special about the look anymore (and even lacking any color like blue stripes).
I have not, nor have I ever advocvated the asthetic quality of grafitti!!
I just preferred the mid 1980's. Red R26/27/28/29/30/33/36's, green R10's, everything else silver with a blue stripe. Now that was a nice mix of looks.
green R10's,
Man do I miss them. I never got a photo of one. There was nothing better than riding on a green R10 on the C/H to Rockaway Park! I can still hear the sound they made on a hot summer day speeding along the Rockaway Branch...awaiting a day at the beach....with all the windows and doors open, and the little fans whirrling....the breezes flying through the air...lights flickering once underground.....almost brings a tear to the eye.
The Rockaway branch is nice now, but it was soooo much better back then. It's not the same thing now in a climate controlled, silver R44. But it could be worse - it could be the sterile R160's (oh yeah- there-a-coming).
Even at the end when the R30's ended their lives there, it was better. Sure miss the "color", and the open windows:
This was my LAST trip on an R30. I didn't know that at the time when I snapped this photo at the Beach 105th Street-Seaside station that day - otherwise I would have forgotten the beach, and rode it back and forth all day, and to Bedford Park Blvd at rush hour. I had no idea they were leaving. Hell, I even thought when the R16's got scarce that they were just in the shops getting their green paint like the R10's - what did I know at the time.....
I liked the green R-10s myself, and would try to ride on one whenever I saw one. (Usually on the CC). As I recall the R-10 overhaul program, according the Daily Snooze, was overseen by a russian immigrant.
Peace,
ANDEE
I rode the greens on the C or CC (don't know if it was the C yet), but I think before the C ran to Rock Park all day, and the H was the Euclid to Rock Park Shuttle, the H was 100% green R10 for a time. At that time also, when it was time to go home in the evening rush hour, I remember riding the C home from Seaside, which then still had quite a few graffitied R10's mixed in there also.
My favorite R-10 paint job was the teal-and-white racing stripe scheme they wore during the late 60s. That was when I became an A (and R-10) fan for life. Too bad they didn't keep that look for very long. By 1968, the half-and-half look began to appear.
But yeah, thanks for the update! :)
No more R-32s on the N, then. This must be first time since they arrived that the Brightliners won't be associated with the N in any shape or form.
38 years....maybe the longest run of one type on one route of any postwar car in history.
Perhaps, but you can't lump the R-32/N association in the same category as the R-36/7 and R-10/A. The latter two served their assigned routes exclusively while the R-32s were always distributed over several routes at the same time. It just so happens that the R-32s ran on the N, either in base service or supplemental service, from the time they first arrived on TA property in sufficient numbers.
The R-62/4 association deserves an honrable mention IMHO, since they are approaching 20 years of service. You could say the same thing about the R-44s on the A, but that's for all of you to decide. The R-46s on the F fall into the same category as the R-32s on the N, since they are also distributed among all routes out of Jamaica Yard.
Don't want to be a smart aleck, but the N did not start getting Brightliners until several months after the Q got them. So, except for a few months at the beginning, the N has had them throughout.
As of yesterday, there were no R-32s on the Coney Island Roster. Jamaica has 454 of 596 R-32s. The Jamaica fleet now stands at 1206 cars. I believe that's a historic high
That 1206 figure would be a temporary one since the R46 fleet is currently undergoing SMS at CIYD main shop.
Actually, I was off by 2. The Jamaica fleet is really 1208 with 456 R-32s. The bulk of the increase is due to the addition of the 'V' train. This is partially offset by the truncation of the F line and the 4-car G trains.
So when is the G going back to 6 cars? (weekdays at least)
When they have enough cars for such a set up.
I have no idea. Clearly, the G is crowded a fair portion of the day and some political pressure is mounting.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why are there 11 car trains on the Flushing line? I need to know because I have friend from England visiting NYC this week and he wants to ride on a Redbird. I'm sure he's going to ask why the Flushing line trains have 11 car consists and I'd like to be able to give him an honest answer. Thanks.
The reason why the #7 line is 11 car consist is when the 1964-65 World's Fair came to Flushing Meadows Park the TA extended the legnth to 11 car on the #7 line for the growth of ridership of people traveling to the World's Fair. Hope this answer helps you.
Thanks very much for the information.
Hate to burst your bubble but the Flushing Line's 11 car consists were orignally put in service to accommodate growing ridership resulting from the 1950's population boom in Queens. While the World's Fair was a factor, 11 car trains were assigned to the Flushing Line as early as 1962 to accommodate permanent riders, not the temporary spike caused by the Fair.
Platforms were lengthened on the Flushing Line from their original 454 feet to 550 feet in the early 1950's. Service was fairly maxed out at that time. They were running 36 tph during rush hour. They did not go to 10 car lengths until the late 1950's. The went to 11 car lengths around 1962.
Using 11 car trains was never a problem because the fleet consisted of single unit cars at that time. The Flushing line equipment consisted of R12's, R14's and R15's (with a few R17's thrown in on occasion).
BTW, they used to operate 11-car R1/9's on the "E" and "F" lines, for 660 foot long trains during the 1950's.
Well, since this is the 7 line thread.... I hope I get a camera to take some pics of those IDENTRA towers... Can I still do so or did the MTA beat me to it?
My lovely wife told me I just had to see this classic pair of tennis shoes she saw at Mervyns. Blue and Orange, my favorite colors, and with a nice letter "N" on the back and on the sides. Get the idea? I will not wear them until I hit New York in the summer. Ought to make a real statement along with my Sea Beach hat and shirt. They'll know who I am right off? Obsessive, aren't I?
Don't forget to grab yourself an "N" bear at the NYCT Museum Store.
BTW Fred, you would have blown a 50 amp fuse at the GO last weekend - there was no southbound "N" service, in fact there was NO "N" service at all, none, nada, zilch; the WAWA was running southbound only over West End, and then northbound only over Sea Beach, soiling the hallowed "N" tracks with its nasty hippo feet. And there was also a reported R40M running as well.
As for Stillwell, prepare for a shock. It looks like London after the Blitz.
wayne
My fuse is starting to heat up after reading your post Wayne. Just another atrocity committed against my train. There has to be a payback sometime.
You mean the Wimp, Wuss, Wheezing, Worthless, Whimpering Windbag?:)
The WeeWee. :o>
wayne
LOL
Good one!
You are obsessive #4 Sea Beach Fred. I like the color of the tennis shoes blue and orange. I believe that is the colors of the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Mets. I have my "W" shirt for the West End Line.
#3 West End Jeff
Good to hear from you Jeff. Actually the Brooklyn Dodgers colors are the same as today, royal blue and white. They were the first team, however, to have a number on the lower front of their uniforms. It was first put there before the 1952 season and they have the red numeral there. But they aren't my Dodgers anymore.
Walter O'Malley must've rode the #4 BMT Sea-Beach line many times as a testament to how dirty he was before he admonished Brooklyn for sunny pastures in Los Angeles.
Seems like people who rode the Sea-Beach are just like that, here today, gone tommorrow.
BTW, another weekend coming up, another N banishment. The W line runs on Sea Beach in both directions, more shuttle buses at 9th Ave.
At least New York still has a National League team and it is the Mets.
At least you can get there by subway.
#3 West End Jeff
And hopefully I won't have to refer to Shea as The Toilet Bowl this year.
Let's hope that the Mets do better this year and that Shea Stadium is cleaner.
#3 West End Jeff
Not to mention Willets Point. Let's try with eradicating thos disgusting car shops first. Those places are so grimy!
Shea itself isn't so bad. The reason I dubbed it The Toilet Bowl is because the Mets seem to be Flushing season after season down the crapper.
I enjoyed your pun about the Mets. Hopefully they will not wind up Flushing this season down the crapper. However, if they wind up screwing up as usual, they'll wind up Flushing another season DOWN the crapper.
#3 West End Jeff
As I've said before, what can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
They manage to wind up in the crapper many years in my own experience.
#3 West End Jeff
"At least New York still has a National League team and it is the Mets.
At least you can get there by subway."
Yes, so is Yankee Stadium, and you can get there by subway too...with THREE lines to choose from, instead of only one to Shea.
Naaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.:)
Hey Fred, is your Brooklyn Dodger cap ready yet?
Linda sure knows you, doesn't she?:)
Well when they rebuilt the LIRR merrick station it was completely done with a new second station house in less than sis months
JAmaica on the LIRR had started major renovation about one year ago and and about half finished,but the Atlanic-Flatbush-Pacific complex has been under Renovation forever
when i think about the LIRR renovation, like putting in new ties and roadbed from lynbrook to jamaica on the babylon line, was done in the summer '02
The LIRR is also fast in terms of their trains going from Atlantic Ave to Jamaica. They go like 85mph! I love that ride!
---Brian
I hope TA is gonna renovate that J M Z Chamber Street Station. I can't stand the smell of urine and the looks of the platform. YUCK! DISGUSTING
I hope they keep it the way it is. It is so bad it is cool. If the ydo renovate it, I will accept nothing less than a total restoration back to its "as built" look. That means with proper side platforms and the whole nine yards. That would be a sight to see. But since I don't think the MTA will spend the money to fix up a huge station like that, I'd rather they just leave it how it is.
Yup, I always say I must be sick because Chambers is one of my favorite stations. I think it even looks elegant now in all it's squalor, I can only imagine what it must've looked like back in the days when it was new. They should fix it up to it's former glory, right down to chandeliers hanging from it's high ceilings.
Actually, in general, the Nassau line is the most interesting line in my opinion. And even though, I feel what they are doing at Bowery and Canal is a good idea, I feel it will decrease the awe that the Nassau line has when completed. I was at Canal on Sunday, and I couldn't help but feel a little sad when I was walking on the queens bound platform thinking that one day half the Nassau line will be sealed up, and that platform there (and at Bowery) will slowly start to look like 18th Street and 91st street. I hope they don't do something like that to Chambers. The local platform is one of the most interesting in the system, and even rivals some of the Contract 1 tilework.
They should fix it up to it's former glory, right down to chandeliers hanging from it's high ceilings.
To quote one of my elderly patients: "Things NEVER were the way the used to be!"
Which is to say, that station never ever was the way it was intended to be. The Line from the Brookly Bridge, which was supposed to be the heart and soul of that station was never connected.
Elias
The platforms at Chambers St/BMT are not what they used to be, that's for sure. The north area is borded up. There used to be different lines in different directions (JJ, RJ, QJ, M, etc.), the Chrystie St connection in 1967 changed they way Brooklyn traveled over the Bridge.
Just another long lost memory of old NYC Transit.
Money! Money! Why is life is all about money?
Chambers Street is not about money ---- it's about a FORTUNE.
OTOH, the NYCTA portion of the 63rd Street tunnel has been open for almost a decade and a half, but the LIRR portion will open in the sweet bye-and-bye.
Far be it for me to defend the TA, but they run a lot more trains than the LIRR does. This might play a role in the speed of their respective construction projects.
Peace,
ANDEE
actually in the am rush all LIRR trains excluding PW, go through jamaica and switch replacement there is much faster than the ta's
and the babylon branch has over 15 thp going through between babylon and lynbrook in the rush, and it is still very fast
i think there should be a subway vacation, and in a month, overhual the entire system
i think there should be a subway vacation, and in a month, overhual the entire system
That would devastate the city's economy.
You're only looking at one project. The LIRR took a couple of years to finish renovating Bayside, and three years at least to finish the Auburndale project.
You have to look at the complexity of each project, and what is required.
The LIRR had a construction fiasco not long ago, with the Herricks Road overpass in Mineola. It was completed in 1997 or 1998 after being under construction for several years. It's possible that management is well aware of the ridicule the LIRR got because of that disaster and has vowed not to let that sort of thing happen again.
The LIRR has trains running on that line every 30 to 60 minutes, the NYCT has trains running on that line every 3 to 6 minutes.
Hello?
Further, the LIRR rehab described involved taking the station building out of service and replacing it with a temporary trailer. Nothing more, and nothing to impede customers from getting to their trains. Still, this activity took over 12 months at some of the stations (Baldwin, for one) along the line.
The Atlantic Ave rehab involves reconfiguring numerous underground walkways in very active areas among other things.
The LIRR started re-building the actual station platform at Rosedale nearly 12 months ago and is still less than 25% complete. I have no idea whether this is "on or close to schedule", but just goes to show that each project has its own pace.
Every 3 to 6 minutes? I'd estimate that the 2/3/4/5 runs at about 45 tph in each direction during rush hour. That's about one train every 40 seconds.
Are they all on the same rail?
Besides, they do not do work on the line during rush hours, they work on the line between the rush hours.
Even LIRR runs more trains (on say the Babylon line) than 30 minute headway.
Albeit, when the renovated Merrick, they built a by-pass line adjacent to the line they were to rebuild, but you cannot do that in a subway tunnel either.
Elias
Last time I took the main line of the LIRR during midday, they wrong railed through Mineola. Imaging wrong railing through a major NYCT station during midday! It's disastrous enough when they do it on the Williamsburgh Bridge, which is a fairly low usage subway line.
It seems that the whole War threat is too real to allow this tour. At this time, The TA is not allowing any tours. If their policy changes, I will schedule a new tour. I am sorry for any disappointments.
On another subject, There has been talk on this and other boards about attending the rodeo. I was asked by a superintendent in the division of security and property protection to tell everyone here that the rodeo is open to Employees and their families and friends ONLY. Unless you are with an employee and stay with them the whole time there, do not attempt to go. They will be turning people away as well as ejecting people. Again, Security is a big issue.
As soon as it is possible, I will schedule another tour and with more openings. Please don't ruin it for everyone by showing up at the rodeo. I am sorry to say it but us railfans already have a bad name. The last thing we want to do is make them not want to allow a tour. I don't want to give them a reason to say no.
-Mark
Ok so we're taken pictures of the insides of their buildings and trains, it's not like their a government building and we're looking at alien space craft. How sad, but security is really tight, I wonder what the MTA is hiding, any conspiracy theories out there?
>>>...it's not like their a government building...<<<
Ohh, but it is a government building.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for trying. I'm surprised you managed to get as far as you did. I look forward to the rescheduled event (if it's on a Sunday).
It seems that the whole War threat is too real to allow this tour. At this time, The TA is not allowing any tours.
Where do I send the adult diapers?
I can appreciate your position.
I attended the 207th Street shop tour on Sept 9, 2001. The TA shop managers were very gracious and accommodating.
Most of us behaved ourselves, but one of the tour participants kept picking up parts at random from different places around the shop and kept asking if he could keep (whatever the part was). It wasn't my place to say anything at the time, but I was disturbed by this rude and immature behavior on the part of a railfan (who was a young adult). Too much of this alone (never mind 9/11) would be enough for the TA to justify not inviting the group back.
Heh, one time, a number of years ago, when I was a facilitator on a Transit Museum tour of CI. We had this foamer, who many people here know, that kept wandering off on his own. Despite repeated warnings. Damn near ruined it for everyone.
Peace,
ANDEE
What type of rodeo are you talking about. I've been to a bus roadeo (that's the spelling that's used for the event.) Is this a subway rodeo. If yes, what type of competition is it?
Michael
Washington, DC
Hopefully things will calm down soon, but don't worry guys, just be patient, I was there in April 2001, and it is truly worth the wait.....
Ooops, It seems that the site where I have my photos uploaded is down (I can't get in), hopefully it should work later.
Hey Mark,
I'm your long lost brother >G<.
Check out reunite.com, I paid em to tell me this ya know so I can go to the rodeo.
ROTFLMFAO
Peace,
ANDEE
When I scheduled the tour, It had nothing to do with the event at Branford. And even if I knew about the Branford event, I STILL would have scheduled it on this day. THE TA was the one calling the shots. THEY told me when I could have the tour. The group leader of the Branford trip, JohnS AKA Sparky, has decided that I am out to get him and ruin his little tour. I emailed and IMed him to explain why it was scheduled the way it was. I mean, I am not goint to tell the TA NO, DO it when I want it. I had recieved some nasty email from people about the conflicting dates. AND NOW THAT THE TOUR WAS CANCELLED BY THE TA, "Sparky" decided that I am "A LYING BASTARD" and a "Son-of-a-Bitch" in an email that he sent among several Subtalk members, Including myself.
I want to get one thing straight. How many groups offer FREE tours of Coney Island or any other shop??? NONE
I did this for YOU. I can go there whenever I want. I didn't have to do a damn thing. I am posting below, a copy of the email I recieved from "Sparky",after you read it, You will understand why I have decided not to do another tour or anything else for Subtalk.
SPARKY'S EMAIL:
Well, you believe what you want to believe, but I am now 1000% sure,
not to believe anything that Mark W. utters. He told me in an IM, whom
supposedly called him a "Scum Bag" are the ones who now show up on
SubTalk asking & thanking him for his efforts.
IMO, Mark W. is a PATHOLOGICAL PREVARICATOR, who cannot be trusted,
even if he stands in front of you. The bottom line he's A LYING BASTARD!
BTW, the rabble is included in this e mail, so the Son-of-a-Bitch, cannot
utter that I did it behind his back.
8-) ~ Sparky
I don't want to take sides on this issue, but please stop this flaming and insults. Mark, you did try your best to schedule a rare tour on CI/Stillwell yards, but the date just happened to fall on the Branford trip. I am going to Branford, but I would support you for any open house tour you may coordinate in the near future. Since this is my first time to Branford, and I will be attending the "Arnines" training class that morning, I want to have fun, not to start hearing these insults in an open discussion board before the trip.
Let's have fun, make peace not another Subtalk war. Leave the insults to Fred and Bob, please. It's more fun that way, I can throw a few barbs at Fred and his Slum-Beach line.
You sure do know some fighting words...
Don't do anything that will jeopardize your career or your relationship with the TA. You don't owe Subtalkers anything. If you set up a tour, great. If you can't, oh well.
"Sparky" has been known to blow steam on Subtalk (haven't we all) but I agree, that email was out of line.
Sparky,
Your email is totally out of line and I think you should apologize to Mark.
I have been a member of Branford for about 20 years or so and I have never seen such an attitude.
Branford does not exclusive rights to its members and I think you should realize that. As individuals we decide for ourselves.
I for one would rather have gone to CI because to get an invite there is a rare treat for a Non-TA person. If I wanted to I could go to Branford at any time.
Allan,
I sent you a personel email regarding this situation and as to why it
occured. I WILL NOT discuss it on a Public Forum. If any member
of this board would like to hear the other side of the story
my email is: trolley687@aol.com It accessible to all, it's not
hidden.
8-) Sparky
Mark,
I think you were WAAAYY out of line in posting this.
Just MHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark,
I appreciate you even trying to get such an event organized. Even being an employee going through CIYD would be better in a group, as you'll learn more and be able to do more (like taking pictures and not getting everyone jumpy). Hopefully you'll be able to get one set up again soon.
Today it’s an excerpt from the Engineer’s Journal, Train date 6.03.03.
Quite awhile has passed since I wrote up the last one so I guess it is indeed time. I decided as I drove in to work today today’s trip would be the one. And as our journey unfolded, the decision to chose this day turned out to be a wise choice.
I was called for 1130 for my regular run of train 342. While we get the train out of Glenn Yard, it connects there with the 342 train that originates at Symington Yard in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The train out of Canada gets symbol M34241-xx (the day’s date). At Glenn, we will different power as well as a modified symbol. Today it will be M34281-06. The 8 in this symbol designates this train as originating on the Midwest Division, Wisconsin Central Zone. The 4 in the symbol of the train out of Canada indicates that train originates on the Prairie Division. It’s indeed a numbers game.
With the changes made to realign the divisions in the United States, Glenn Yard was made part of the Midwest Division. The Gulf Division begins someplace on the south side of Chicago at some location unknown to me at this moment. So I am actually a Gulf Division employee going on duty at a Midwest Division Terminal. All of the former IC agreement employees (those working under collective bargaining agreements) are employees of the Gulf Division. The managers are all employees of the Midwest Division. So what we have is the Chicago Terminal that was once all part of one division now divided. Part of it is the Gulf and the rest is the Midwest. Only the rail industry can pull off something like this.
I arrived at Glenn Yard about 1110. As I pulled into the parking lot I observe that our train is not yet doubled up which is not a promising sign. My Conductor du jur, Mike Tromp (aka Bobblehead), arrives about the same moment I do. We exchange pleasantries and observe the obvious about our train not being together. After we head into the office and check in, we learn that it will be awhile before our train is ready. A little while in railroad time is usually no less than one hour.
Finally at around 1230 Job 16, the day lead job at Glenn finishes putting our train together and we can take over. I head out and begin to look over my power. Today I will have the Grand Trunk 5950 and 5949 (a pair SD40-3’s) for power. Together these two units will provide me with six thousand horsepower to pull today’s train. According to the plan we will have 43 loads, 57 empties, 7397 tons and 5871 feet of train (a baby train by CN standards), but we all know that in the rail industry Plan A never has a chance anyway.
Upon boarding the power I hear the Car Inspectors calling me for permission to attach to my crew. I give them this permission and they go about the duties of working the train in preparation for an air test. By attaching to my crew, they are allowed to perform duties related to making my train ready for the road as if they were my Conductor or Brakeman. By allowing them to attach negates the need to have to lock out the track we are on and display blue flags to protect them as required by the rules. Being that they are now part of the crew and will be on, in between or about the cars, I cannot and will not move the train. Even though it is not required by the rules, I normally remove the reverser handle while they are performing their chores. This adds one more step of protection.
My power today has not been given a daily inspection. Each locomotive used in the US is required to receive an inspection each calendar day. A daily inspection is good until 2359 hours the following day. No later than that time another daily inspection must be performed so as to be incompliance with that date. While I am good until 2359 this evening, I really don’t have to worry as I will be expired on the hours of service at 2330. However, I decide to be the nice guy and handle this instead of leaving it to the next guy.
At some point I hope to do a piece about what a daily inspection entails as it is rather involved, but for now suffice it to say I completed said inspections and filled out the necessary forms. Everything is now all legal and everybody will be happy.
About 1310 the Car Inspectors call and inform me they are finished working the train, that I have two bad orders (cars not worthy to be run in the train owing to some sort of defect) and that they are detached as members of my and in the clear. A few minutes later Mike comes out and we begin the task of kicking these two bad orders out of the train.
After throwing out that first one, we developed air problems when we coupled back onto the train. An emergency vent valve stuck open on one of the cars in the train. I use a little trick of the trade I know to attempt to correct this problem from the engines in order to try to save the Conductor a long walk. My trick works and we finally get the air pumped back up and get going again to throw out that second bad order. With this task complete we summon for a Car Inspector to come out and give us our air test. He will "travel the set" meaning he will walk or drive along side the train to physically observe that the brakes have applied on all of the cars in our train. FRA rules require that we have 100% compliance which means the brakes must work on every car in our train. In Canada, their rules are different as they only require 85% compliance at the initial terminal of a train. I like our rules much better.
We get the okay on all the brakes being applied and then release the brakes upon request. After traveling the set the Car Inspector is now right behind the engines and will watch the head car release. When it is released he will give us a highball on the air and then physically observe the train rolling by as we depart to determine the brakes have released on all the rest of the cars in the train. We finally depart at 1520.
As we depart Glenn Yard we are heading timetable direction north on the Joliet Sub although it is more like compass direction northeast. We will actually change timetable and compass directions two times during the course of our trip.
I have to contact Foreman Kenny Hamm before we pass milepost 9 today. He has what is known as a "planned work" under rule 1102 of the CN US Operating Rules. This rule protects work gangs that need to work on or near the tracks. We cannot operate within any part of these limits without the permission of the employee in charge of the planned work. He owns this track and all moves through his limits can only be made under his authority. Should a crew enter these limits without permission, aside from the potential danger of striking the men and equipment or even worse, the Engineer will be decertified under the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 240. The Conductor and any other crew members will also receive discipline, normally a suspension without pay.
Foreman Hamm’s planned work is listed on our tabular general bulletin order (TGBO) as general bulletin order (GBO) number 3462. I contact him on the radio informing him of our approach to his limits and that I am coming at him on track two. He gives me the following instructions; "Grand Trunk 5950 you have permission to proceed northward through my 1102 limits from milepost 9 to milepost 7 on track two. All of my men and equipment are in the clear and I have no speed restrictions other than what you carry on your TGBO, over."
I then have to repeat back all of these instructions to him saying "I understand your men and equipment are in the clear. Using track number two Grand Trunk 5950 has permission to proceed northward through the limits of your 1102 from milepost 9 to 7 with no speed restrictions other than what we carry on our TGBO, is this correct, over? I get his response that my repeat is correct and I can now proceed through his limits. We have no speed restrictions on our TGBO through his limits today, so we can proceed at normal timetable speed. If for some reason, there was a reason to require us to operate at a lower speed he would have specifically informed us of that speed and the exact location of the required speed restriction.
We roll on north receiving a clear at Lemoyne (Belt Railway of Chicago) crossing and Corwith (BNSF’s former Santa Fe) crossing. As we pass Corwith Tower I give a shot of whistle to say hello to the Operator there. Corwith and Lemoyne are two of the three remaining places that have color position light signals still in place and in service. They will fall next at Lemoyne (according to a bulletin posted after I initially wrote this, Saturday, March 8th) as the gang Foreman Hamm is in charge of is installing the new hardware and signals right now. The other location is CP Canal where the Indiana Harbor Belt and CSX cross and connect south of Glenn Yard.
At Rockwell we get an approach signal. This tells me I will have to stop before passing the next signal at the Panhandle (Brighton Park). We must stop at the Panhandle irregardless of the signals displayed. There is a stop sign located there and we must stop. The approach indication at Rockwell is the best aspect that can be displayed at this time owing to the stop sign at the Panhandle.
The Panhandle is the crossing of two separate Norfolk Southern (former Conrail) lines and CSX’s former B&OCT. There is an empty coal train heading compass direction north and timetable direction west on CSX. We wait at the Panhandle from 1550 to 1600 for this train to clear and then get the proceed signal. This crossing is the last main track crossing in the entire Chicago Terminal that is not an interlocked crossing. The Switchtender here must manually raise and lower the semaphore arm signals to control train movements through here. Nothing at all is automated here. In the days of Conrail before NS took over this portion, all trains operating on Conrail trackage though here also had to get either verbal permission over the radio or a hand signal from the Switchtender in addition to the semaphore signal. I don’t know if this still holds true or not today.
I drag our train across the Panhandle at 10 MPH and roll on up to and through Bridgeport and onto the Freeport Sub. We are now heading timetable and sort of compass direction east. We had an approach indication on the signal at Bridgeport which means we must be prepared to stop at Cermak, the next signal.
It is very sunny and the sun reflects brightly off the snow on the ground. If you recall from my "Trip Across Chicago" series, I mentioned that the signals at Cermak can be very difficult to see in bright sunlight. The snow only exacerbates this problem. Today we cannot make out the signals at all, so I bring the train to a stop and Mike and I get off the engine to try to determine the aspect on the signal here. This is 21st Century railroading at its finest. We are able to see the flashing red indicating restricting and climb back aboard and take the train down to 21st Street where I can clearly see a stop signal. It is the beginning of the afternoon rush and we will be here until at least 1800. At this moment it is 1617 hours.
Even though there are a few windows of opportunity here to get across, we cannot take advantage of them. We have 16th Street (Clark St) just about a third of a mile or so east of here and they have what seems to be non stop action during the afternoon rush. When they have a window between 1800 and 1818, the usually take us at both 21st and 16th.
We get to observe several Amtrak trains including a couple of switching moves as well as several Metra Southwest Service trains go across and even a Norfolk Southern train coming from the BNSF en route to Elkhart, IN. Finally at 1758 hours we get the signal to proceed and head east. We will be non-stop to Homewood.
Our second change of direction occurs when we go from being an eastbound to a southbound when we cross 16th Street. While we are still actually heading compass direction east and will do so until we go around the curve between Indiana Avenue and 18th Street and turn compass south.
As we approach Homewood we encounter an approach (yellow over red) signal at block signal 12211 in Hazel Crest. This is the signal governing our approach to the Homewood control point and tells me I will have to stop before passing the signal at Homewood. I ease the train to a stop right between the Metra and Amtrak stations and we observe various railroad activities just to the east of us at the south end of Markham Yard. Several trains are making moves here and 399 is sitting on track four looking like they are ready to make a move of some sort. The main reason we are being held though is train 194, the hot intermodal train between Markham and New Orleans which is now departing. We will follow him south. Once he is clear and after about a fifteen minute wait, we get the signal and I start pulling on them again heading south on track one.
Train 271, an automobile train that originates in Toronto is on track two having come off the EJ&E connection at Matteson. He follows 194 out of Steunkel where the double track ends and then we follow 271 south from there. We have a parade going on here. All three trains will meet train 333, a Memphis to Toronto train, at Peotone.
We catch 271 who has slowed to pick up the Conductor of 333 and bring him back to the road crossing in the middle of the siding at Peotone. The crossing was cut as there was no room to handle the train at Markham which meant it would be sitting there for an extended period of time. The crew on 333 will put the train back together now as they will be handled north out of Peotone once this parade of southbound trains pass. We get a restricted proceed indication at block signal 37.9. I can proceed without stopping but only doing so at restricted speed. I must be prepared to stop within half the range of my vision looking out for all that bad stuff and not exceeding 20 MPH. We are in communication with 271 to find out if they are still moving. I want to make sure we don’t have to stop on any crossings. We keep rolling albeit at a rather slow speed. I get a diverging approach (red over yellow) at Peotone and we use the siding at Peotone to get around 333 who is parked on the main track. As we approach the signal at South Peotone it changes from a stop signal to approach. This means 271 has now cleared the block ahead of us. I can continue to proceed out of Peotone siding.
After passing the Manteno defect detector we get the report, "No defects, length of train 5-6-1-7 feet, total axles 4-0-4, temperature 2-3, think safety, detector out." Being we set out those two bad ordered cars at Glenn, we now only have 98 cars hence the lower axle count. If we would have had all of the train that was planned out of Glenn our axle count would have been 4-1-2.
About four tenths of a mile south of the detector is block signal 46.1 and it displays an approach indication. This signal governs the approach to the home signal at the Indian Oaks control point. The six mile long Kankakee Siding breaks out at the Oaks on the east side of the main track. This siding is frequently used to meet and pass trains. I must proceed prepared to stop at the signal at the Oaks; therefore I begin to reduce the speed of my train so that I can stop, if necessary before passing this signal. With a train of this size and weight today, slowing is not a problem. From Manteno to the Oaks is pretty much all downhill. When I roll around the curve at milepost 48 I can see the signal at the Oaks (at milepost 49.5) displays an approach indication as well. I can proceed without stopping. I can also begin to accelerate again and do so.
Within the siding at Kankakee is train 343 waiting on us. He is stopped at Larry Powers Road about 2.5 miles south of the Oaks. This is where we frequently wait when effecting meets as this location will hold up to 10,400 feet of train without blocking any crossings. The Desk Two Dispatcher calls telling us we will be meeting Amtrak 392, the Daily Illini at Kankakee. Kankakee, also known as KX and Kankakee Junction is the south end of the Kankakee Siding and also the crossing and connection of Norfolk Southern’s Kankakee Branch. Being that my train is only about 5600 plus feet long, I can pull all the way up to the signal at KX and wait on Amtrak. You can fit 6400 feet of train between KX and North Street, the road crossing behind us. Normally, we have our usual monster, killer; horror sized trains and must stop way back north of North Street so as not to block it.
The meet plan calls for 392 to pull into the siding and then stop when he clears the signal. We will get the signal to proceed south and when we clear, 392 will be talked by the signal and shove out behind us to clear the signal at the south end of the control point here. Then he’ll be lined up the main and proceed north when they get the signal. This method is being used as train 343 is still sitting waiting up at Larry Powers Road. After a 9 minute delay at KX for the meet, we are on the roll again getting a clear signal.
We roll on south rolling past Gar Creek Siding on clear signals. I have to slow for a 40 MPH temporary speed restriction at milepost 69.2 in Clifton. The Clifton detector tells us "No defects, length of train 5-6-8-3, speed 3-9, total axles 4-0-4, temperature 2-6, think safety, detector out." Two detectors down and two to go. Then it is past Ashkum on clear signals. We also roll through Gilman passing a set of engines on the north end of the east pass and the local working at the south end. There is a 30 MPH speed restriction over the diamonds where the Toledo, Peoria & Western crosses and I have to reduce my speed to comply. Just south of the depot at Gilman is where the Toledo, Peoria & Western crosses and connects. We do a fair amount of interchange with them here. Just south of the TPW crossing begins six miles of double main track which stretches south to Del Ray.
We also have a 40 MPH temporary speed restriction at milepost 88 just south of Del Ray and once I get the entire train beyond it, can resume normal speed.
The Del Ray detector says "No defects, length of train 5-7-3-3, speed 3-9, total axles 4-0-4, temperature 3-0, have a safe day, detector out."
Between milepost 95 and 96 we begin our assault of Loda Hill. While not qualifying as one of the renowned grades in railroading, it is the ruling grade on the Chicago Subdivision. I have been reduced to 2 MPH on a loaded grain train on this hill. Many heavy trains are frequently dragged down to 10 or 12 MPH while tackling this grade. Today with the smaller train my speed only drops to 26 MPH, down from the 47 MPH speed at which I began the climb.
We roll past Paxton siding on clear signals and head on to a 25 MPH temporary speed restriction from milepost 106.8 to 107. Just before this restriction we start past the Ludlow detector and when we clear it we get our last electronic inspection message of this trip, "No defects, length of train 5-6-6-6, speed 3-2, total axles 4-0-4, temperature 2-7, safety first always, detector out."
Steve Hoyt the Engineer on 271 who we are still chasing calls and tells me they are stopped at South Rantoul. The block signal at milepost 110.5 indicates approach diverging (yellow over green) telling me that we head into the siding at North Rantoul. 271’s being stopped on the main track is now a moot point. Mike and I discussed the idea of heading in at Rantoul long before we saw the signal. We figured we would be heading in owing to what we were hearing on the radio. Listening to the chatter being broadcast had it sounding like there was a bit of a jackpot in the making at Champaign. We were figuring they were probably going to have to hold us at Rantoul, the last siding before reaching Champaign Yard. Our guess was they would have to clear up some of the mess and keep us out of the way while doing it.
As we head into the siding, Desk Two calls informing us that we would just roll through Rantoul Siding and keep going. "In and out at Rantoul" is my acknowledgement to this information. This means the Champaign Yardmaster has changed his mind and told the Desk Two Dispatcher to bring us on. Mike and I discussed this move and surmised this would be a big mistake.
Here is the scenario as we can hear it unfolding on the radio at Champaign, train 333 is in the siding, 271 will be heading down the main. A northbound train 319 which normally is interchanged to the NS at Tolono about ten miles south of Champaign is being brought to Champaign Yard instead as there is no place to park the train at Tolono tonight clear of the main track. Behind 319 is train 327 which also has to be brought into the yard. Being that we have this wonderful single track railroad, somebody has to sit and wait. 271 also has to swap out crews and engines as there is a problem with the headlight on the power presently on the train. Once 271 swaps out power and crews, the end of train telemetry must be linked electronically to the new power, armed up to allow front to rear as well as rear to front communication, a dump test performed to assure positive front to rear communication and a set and release of the train brakes to demonstrate brake pipe continuity. A Car Inspector from Champaign Yard has to assist in all of this.
As we approach the signal at Leverett Junction we struggle to observe a restricting (flashing red) indication. When they replaced the signals at Leverett a couple of years ago, they positioned the southward signal in such a manner that makes it almost impossible to see at night. The background lights from the yard line up right behind it and you cannot positively make out the aspects on it after dark until you get about 25 or 30 car lengths from the signal.
Now normally when you are going down the main track and it is clear ahead of you, an approach or clear signal (yellow or green over red) will be displayed at Leverett Jct. When heading into the siding either a diverging approach (red over yellow) or diverging clear (red over green) is displayed. When heading into the yard a restricting (red over flashing red) is displayed. If you are headed down the main or siding with a train ahead of you or a switch opened down by the yard office, you also get a restricting signal. Since we don’t really know where we are going I bring the train to a stop as the Yardmaster is not answering my call on the radio.
Finally he does answer telling us we will follow 271 down the main. Bob (Sandy) Sanderson the Engineer on 333 on the siding informs me 271’s tail end is only about 15 cars south of the signal at Leverett. If I were to pull up behind him and stop I would have Ford-Harris Road just north of Leverett Jct. blocked. So instead of being the bad guy, I stop north of the crossing. We stopped at 2239 hours.
Mike and I could hear the big picture as it developed in front of us. Somehow though, the Yardmaster could not see it, and the results unveil themselves.
Logic would have dictated holding us at Rantoul. This would have allowed 333 to leave Champaign and head up towards Chicago. I told Sandy on 333 with the way things are going, he’ll probably be here for Amtrak 59 as well. He laughed and agreed. After sitting at Ford-Harris Road for about fifteen minutes, the Champaign Yardmaster calls and asks where we are and if we have passed the signal at Leverett Junction, yet. Let’s see, he has a display of the Digicon CTC control system right there at his desk and all he has to do is look at it and ascertain this fact, but he doesn’t. Remember, I mentioned the word logic a few sentences ago?
I tell him we are stopped have done so clear of the road crossing. He then gets concerned about the length of our train. He keeps asking us how long we are and when I inform him, he seems in total disbelief. He can pull up our train consist in the computer to take a look if he really doesn’t believe us but…… He then asks if he can have the Desk Two Dispatcher take away that signal and change our line up to head us into the yard instead of down the main to which I give him the okay. Rules require those in control of the signals must confer with us before changing them to positively ascertain they won’t be dropping a signal in our face.
It is now getting dangerously close to turnover time for the Dispatchers, the time they change shifts. This can make it next to impossible to reach them on radio, telephone or wire. Tonight is no exception. Finally the signal drops to stop and then goes into time. Whenever a controlled signal and the route through a control point are to be changed, a timer starts and must run its prescribed time before the change to the switch line up can occur. This is a safety feature built into the system. While we are sitting here waiting for the time to run down and the signal to come up, I hear the Engineer on Amtrak 59 calling his Conductor on the radio telling her they will be heading into the siding at Rantoul. At 2310, the signal comes back up and we can now proceed into the yard. We are instructed to pull into track 1C. The Conductor on 333 is kind enough to walk over and line the two hand operated switches we need to access this track so we won’t have to stop and line them when we start pulling into the yard.
As we begin pulling into 1C I hear Desk Two call 59 and tell him of a change in plans and they will keep rolling through the Rantoul Siding and onto Champaign. Sounds like a pattern developing here. And it also means the little prophecy I told Sandy is coming to fruition, 333 will meet 59 here at Leverett Jct.
Two prophecies right in one evening. It’s a gift.
As we are pulling into 1C and now clear of the main track at Leverett Desk Two calls 59 and gives him the following permission, "After stopping Amtrak 59 has permission to pass the stop signal at Leverett lined main to main. There is a train ahead." This means 59 will follow 271 who is still sitting waiting for 327 to clear.
At about 2322 hours we pull up to a stop across from the yard office. I ask the Yardmaster if there is a crew on duty right now for this train but he never answers. With almost no sand left in the hours of service glass Mike and I tie down the train and bail off. We are blocked by train 327 doubling his train into A Yard here and when he clears we stroll into the yard office at 2335. The Yardmaster is all concerned as he was calling us on the radio with instructions for the set out but we weren’t answering. I inform him we are dead on the hours and he then immediately questions what time we went on duty. I guess he didn’t believe us when we told him we were dead, he needed proof.
But there is more, we have to wait for him to take us to the hotel as he didn’t call a cab for us. With chaos being served in generous portions here, transporting us to the hotel is the least of his concerns. So we sit and wait, all the time still on the clock. Finally at 2355 he has a free moment and takes us to the hotel.
Another good one though, nothing got wrecked, nobody got hurt and best of all, nobody got fired. This is the big picture I like to see.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2003 by JD Santucci
I enjoyed your post, though I have to admit I didn't understand all of it. Too bad I didn't have a map in front of me. I'm sure it would have helped.
I was tempted to post this earlier, but I held off. Looks like it was needed anyway.
Too bad I didn't have a map in front of me. I'm sure it would have helped.
There's an antique mall in Clinton, Illinois where there are unattended booths/rooms of various types of stuff, ranging from the usual used books, dinnerware, etc. to more interesting things. There is a full-time staff that handles payments, crediting the accounts of the various merchants, etc.
Anyway, one of those booths always has a steady supply of railroad memorabilia, including CNIC rulebooks (still sealed in binders), jacket patches, locks, builder's plates, and so forth. I bought some of that stuff once (a lock, a plate, 2 rulebooks, and a "Stop! Tank car is connected to building - do not move!") metal sign. The next time I was there, replacements had arrived.
I don't know if they'll sell stuff via mail order, and it is a bit out of the way for a casual visit from most nycsubway.org readers, but here is their contact info, at least for now. The format of this URL makes me think it changes occasionally. The mall doesn't have Internet access, so you'd have to phone or FAX.
Randy Kennedys Latest Musings.
Peace,
ANDEE
could this be HeyPaul ??
So what follows is a safer and more modest betting proposal, suggested by a mathematically inclined colleague who asked to be described only as a curmudgeon and longtime subway rider.
Gamblers UNITE! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
According to the NYCT and the NY Post of 3/12 Page #6, on May 4, 2003, the NYCT token will cease to exist. As of May 4th, tokens will not be accepted by system turnstiles. You will be able to exchange a token and 50 cents for one ride.
NY Post as an authenticated source of information? You're slipping, guy. But I *do* believe NYCT bulletins. I would have quit while I was ahead. :)
Gotta slip into the city one of these days soon and get me a couple of ten-packs for eBay.
Gotta slip into the city one of these days soon and get me a couple of ten-packs for eBay.
Will you be buying the ten packs on eBay? You can do that from home.
He wants to sell them on eBay.
Actually, I would want to KEEP them. But you just KNOW that eBay's going to be flooded with "GENUINE NYC SUBWAY TOKENS" for $50 each. :)
Then why did you write that you were getting them "for ebay"?
Having a bit of fun considering that "property of the transit authority" on eBay has garnered many a post here. I mean, let's be real here - the hoarders are already out there collecting them to sell on eBay - I'd expect to see THOUSANDS of listings. What REAL chance would I have if that was really my motivation? I'm sure the bids would close at ten cents. :)
LOL, you know that instead of the NYCT loosing money on token hoarding before a fare increase, they'll make money on the collectable value of the tokens. If they were smart they would continue to sell the tokens from booths for 1.50 each as souvineers until the supply runs down.
I know the MTA better than that. They'd add the ENTIRE WAD to their "collectibles" web page and sell them ALL as sheer tonnage for the high bid, suggested minimum bid $2.5 million. :)
If they were smart they would continue to sell the tokens from booths for 1.50 each as souvineers until the supply runs down.
They're already $1.75 at the Transit Museum gift shop.
"for eBay" meant "to sell on" ... actually, I'd want to keep some for a good many years just for nostalgia value - everybody else will likely be collecting them to sell. I rode the trains when 10 cents got you on, so I've been through all the many tokens and price hikes that resulted in tokens reappearing at the following fare hike. With their demise, I can see them being as collectible as handholds or number plates ... and as plentiful in the "surplus" market.
Gonna miss them.
I miss the little ones with the Y on them.
I still have one, but only one.
I have some of the others that Dave has on his masthead too,
Also an old AC transit token, but I guess that just wouldn't work on the masthead.
Elias
Heh, I still have one of the original ten packs, still wrapped in plastic.
--Mark
Oh Shit----E-bay here we come! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like another tradition's died in the last few years. :(
... at pathrestoration.com
Here's the diagram we've all been waiting for, so to speak.
Notice no access to crossover from Hoboken-Newport line without complicated reverse move (which they could have done anyway without any construction). So it looks like Exchange Place service, when it starts, will be Journal Square/Newark to Exchange Place.
(image below from www.pathrestoration.com)
It looks to me as a train from HOB could arrive on the south track at EXP and then go to JSQ/NWK;
While a train from JSQ could arrive on the north track and then serve HOB.
So there seems to me to be no reason why HOB cannot serve EXP
Elias
Yeah ok but it would have to be HOB-EXCH-JSQ and return. Not HOB-EXCH and return. I suppose they could run a round robin service like that but they'll end up having to nix the direct HOB-JSQ service to support it. Hoboken terminal is pretty busy during rush hour, no room for three services.
(I suppose they could run a round robin service like that but they'll end up having to nix the direct HOB-JSQ service to support it.)
Late nights they might have some kind of round robin that includes Exchange Place. But it certainly doesn't make sense in busy periods. If you want to get from Hoboken to Exchange Place, you can use the light rail. If you want to get to lower Manhattan, there are ferries direct from Hoboken.
Light rail does change the picture a bit, doesn't it?
Wow! Wasn't that clever, using the Penn Pocket as they did and not just building a sicssors X-over at the point of tunnel L. Thanks god the earlier reports were wrong and they didn't destroy the layout of the original flying junction.
Thank you so much for posting this! This answers all of our questions! I had no idea PATH was being so open! This is great.
---Brian
Thanks for posting that, Dave. Great info.
Well it looks like the old style concrete guards have been retained. The only question that remains is if PATH retains its committment to pneumatic switches and trip stops. PATH is probaby the last agency to actively install new pneumatic equipment, let's see if they keep it up.
Cannot see page...when I access the site, I get a 404 Error page...
Wow. I think the "SubTalk effect" used up all their bandwidth!
i got a ''web site not responding'' message... everytime I tried...
Earth to Sparky. You might want to read an article in the trade "Metro Magazine:
"BRT seems to be a solution that can be plugged into many (mass transit) problems."
- "Need a low-cost alternate to light rail ?"
- How about "... an environmentaly friendly mode of public transportation ?"
- "Need a high-capacity vehicle to provide frequent service with minimal dwell times ?"
Four vehicles are featured, three are articulated, the fourth is a 45 foot bus ... yes all run on rubber tires & diesel, but they LOOK like light rail
And the very next article "Light Rail Vehicle Designs, Look to the Future" The vehicles look very similar. They run on rails, some via electricty, some diesel.
Over to you Sparky !
Hey, Mr.T, I'm not sure if Sparky 'has his ears on' right now. LOL!
No they are up and glowing red :-(
I glad he's a friend of ours !
I read that article. It still remains that it's a BUS.
Here in Boston, the MBTA's new Silver Line is being promoted as a hybrid; a replacement for the old Orange Line el, that is better than standard bus service. The fact remains that it's still a BUS. The Silver Line has no traffic signal preemption, "dedicated" lanes that are abused by both moving and parked cars, and no direct connection to the existing rapid transit system.
What makes it worse, is that the new public system map (handout version) lists the Silver Line under "Subways."
You can put perfume on a pig...
You can put perfume on a pig...
You just insulted another Subtalker ...
...or more likely, A DIESEL HEAD BUSTALKER. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
They may call it BRT, but it's not, i.e. just a skip stop bus that has to fight in traffic with the cars doesn't solve the problem with getting mass amounts of folks from point A to B.
You forgot about, High Level Platforms.
Peace,
ANDEE
That is true. The Silver Line is definitely not a real replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line, although it has to be an improvement over the old 49 bus. Washington Street should get the light rail service that it had been promised a long time ago, but I read that the Green Line subway with its four current branches is close to capacity. Is there still enough capacity in the subway, especially on the double-track section between Park Street and Gov't Center to run five branches of the Green Line without causing delays. Maybe they can put the old Park Street loop track back into regular service and terminate one of the present four branches there.
But would a light rail line down Washington be free of moving and double-parked cars? The part of Washington in the South End is wide, but where it splits into two one-way streets near Dudley Square is rather narrow. I rode the Silver Line while visiting Boston this past November, and I noticed that the street got narrower and the double-parked cars became more frequent as the bus approached Dudley. If that were a trolley line, it would be unable to steer around those double-parked cars. I think at the very least, electric trolley busses should be used, and not the dual-mode kind that Seattle uses and that MBTA wants to buy. The buses should be strictly ETBs and the whole line should be under wires. But that's only if there's no room in the Green Line subway to run five branch lines at acceptable rush-hour headways.
The scary thing about Bus Rapid Transit [sic] is that it has influential friends in New York area advocacy groups.
Their initials are SC and TSTC.
The company who makes this is marketing it as "Flex Trolley." They are trying to convince the Atlanta City Council to buy them for use here. I think it's bullshit.
The company who makes this is marketing it as "Flex Trolley."
Ah, that I should have lived to see the day that a non-electric, non-rail vehicle is being sold as a "trolley."
Don't you already know about these hideous disgraces that infest cities and tourists actually think they are the real thing? Even San Fran has them!
Yes, they are pathetic, but that's not a BRT, it's just a tourist/shopping mall trolley on rubber tires.
I don’t see how they are a disgrace, and I seriously doubt anyone mistakes bus trolleys for traditional rail trolleys.
Houston has a network of 5 free “trolley” routes that connect all areas of downtown during the day, and extend to neighboring restaurant areas during lunch.
http://www.ridemetro.org/pdf/routes/trolley.pdf
Out of town visitors and people who do not normally take the bus feel more willing to ride one if it looks cute, old fashioned, and touristy.
The only problem with the “trolley” system is that is so popular that other areas of the city (including Texas Medical Center/Rice University and Uptown/Galleria) have started to demand circulators using the trolley style busses.
It’s sad that so many people in sunbelt cities do not feel comfortable with public transportation, and I think that anything that convinces more people to ride a bus is a good thing.
"... I think that anything that convinces more people to ride a bus is a good thing ..."
Now, THAT is off-topic :-)
Sparky to Planet Thurston,
Now that you've shown us you can read "trade magazines" with concept
vehicles, show us on SubTalk where, there is an application that works under
the proposed theory stated in "Metro Magazine"? Two cities heard from,
with other posters and negative retort to boot.
So what can I say, since you chose to make a moke by quoting an unproven application,
I'm ROTFLMFAO!!!
BRT = Brooklyn Rapid Transit on this board of steel wheels. >GG<
Sorry Buddy YOU BLEW IT!!!
8-) ~ Sparky
We cannot just unconditionally dismiss Bus Rapid Transit. It has to be considered as one of several mass transit possibilities, and it is certainly better than building more highways. There are travel corridors that do not warrant or cannot accommodate the infrastructure of rail. I wouldn't want it to replace light rail in the transit mix, but there are circumstances whre you would want to be able to go from local stops to an express corridor to local stops again and where light rail tracks would be prohibitively expensive of physically impossible. Example: express buses running from SI to Manhattan. There are physical and economic reasons against putting a light or heavy rail on the SI Expressway, the Verazzano Bridge, the Gowanus, and through the Battery Tunnel. But, dedicated bus lanes running through to Lower Manhattan can (and, in part, do) work. Clean diesel, hybrid, or electric buses are much cleaner than thousands of additional passenger cars sitting in traffic.
The name is a problem. Perhaps we wouldn't be as upset if they were called busways or bus lanes. Bus Rapid Transit makes it sound like something that they are not. There are some situations (and I don't know the Silver Line well enough) where the name will deceive to the point that the busway is built to the exclusion of the needed rail line in the future. I have heard that busways can be built in such a way that they can be converted to light rail rights-of-way. We just cannot let the bus industry dictate transit choices.
Some thoughtful remarks my friend.
BRT has been proven to work in cities where they are not ready/not able to put down tracks, so they don't replace them. The best examples have exclusive guideways for the bus & high platforms. These would also seem to lend themselves to replacement with tracks when the traffic reaches a critical level or the city floats a bond issue, etc.
The fact that they are now building specilized rubber tired vechiles just for this purpose should tell us it is something serious that we (railfans) should become familar with, i.e. if you don't know the facts about a thing you can't argue against it & have folks take you seriously.
In a slightly different context, I've been watching the problem that they are having with the diesel powered LRV in NJ. I wish them well.
^^^"BRT has been proven to work in cities where they are not ready/not able to put down tracks, so they don't replace them. The best examples have exclusive guideways for the bus & high platforms."^^^
WHERE??? All I'm asking is for fact as to where, not rhetoric from
the industry. Without sounding off the wall, 67 years ago we had PCCs,
which were the rage of the time. But what happened to the majority of them?
And if they called them Bus-Ways which they are, O.K., they're not Rapid Transit.
BTW Montreal & I think Paris are rubber tired Rapid Transit operations. So what are the vehicles that are being designed? Do they operate on fixed guideways (RT) or as buses in a bus- way? Inquiring minds want to know.
8-) Sparky
I would say Seattle's bus tunnel can be considered a success. It did cost a fortune, but construction costs would have been the same regardless of the mode of transportation being tunneled under the city. It has gotten 24 routes of express busses from the suburbs to run through the tunnel, freeing them from the surface traffic while getting them out of the way of surface routes. Dedicated bus lanes on the local freeways, including I-5 and the 520 and I-90 floating bridges over Lake Washington really speed the travel times compared to cars.
Sadly this system that seems to work so well is pretty much going to be scrapped, in the name of a Light Rail serving a very limited customer base compared to the current situation. Sound Transit's Central LINK would serve but on bus line, all while severely reducing the number of busses that can travel through the tunnel at a given time. The current plan is for the Breda duobusses (diesel + ETB) to be converted to full electrics and replace the oldest Artic ETBs. The twin wires will be pulled down and replaced with LRT catenary, Sound Transit's LRT will run once every 6 minutes at rush hour with Diesel-Electric Hybrids (either a New Flyer DE60LF or Gillig Advantage hybrid) running in between them. Seattle is just a bit too small to really support a NYC subway system, and the geography of the area is too harsh to make Light Rail on the surface a possibility, also there is little exsisting railroad ROW to exploit for a LRT ROW. If anything, Seattle made a huge blunder in not connecting the tunnel overhead to the exsisting ETB overhead on the surface, also it could be argued that they didn't order enough Breda Dual-modes, which lead to some areas getting spotty tunnel bus coverage, something that could be seen as leading directly to the current push for the LINK.
Is BRT right for NY? Most likely no, you have plenty of exsisting ROW, major trunk lines and such that can be expanded, however in some cities, especially those like Seattle with tough grades, little room for LRT and very poor geography for rail, BRT, especially something along the lines of the Bus Tunnel, may be perfect.
So long as you are able to fend off public demands to allow cars into those tunnels.
I don't think that has come up yet in Seattle, I checked the newspaper sites and couldn't find records of somebody accidentally driving down into the tunnels (which puts METRO's road tunnels on step ahead of SEPTA's tracked tunnels [g]). Metro's bus tunnels are definitely not the kind of thing that motorists would go for, outside the stations, which are quite expansive, the tubes between the stations are single laned affairs, just wide and tall enough for the busses and their overhead. Also the fact that the busses switch to electric for what probably could be a diesel trip (the tunnel is 1.3 mile long, and, much as I love the Bredas, better ventilation would solve the little fumes that would accumulate down there). The fact that the diesel busses have to change to electric probably scares the car drivers away (who knows what will happen when the hybrids start running through there and some idiot with an insight or prius gets a bright idea) In fact apparantly straight surface diesels do occasionally travel through the tunnels, as witnessed by MAN Americana 3154 sitting at Pioneer Square in the tunnel on the route 106.
You can see in the photo above, just how small the bores get at the end of the stations. The one tube is just visible under a bank of lights at the end of the platform, while the other is the orange glow visible just behind the Breda's rear end.
WHERE??? All I'm asking is for fact as to where, not rhetoric from
the industry.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Curitiba.
Exactly, it's one system that best does something different then just another bus.
Some other cites thinking about this: Louisville; Ottawa; Miami; Washington D.C.; Cleveland; Honolulu; Charlotte; Durham-Raleigh; Auckland; Manila.
Boston calls it BRT, but it ain't.
NYC, I also dought it will happen here, but in New Jersey, maybe.
Mr t__:^)
NYC, I also dought it will happen here...
You mean Fulton Mall doesn't count as BRT? ;)
But doesn't Curatiba want light rail too. I read on one web site (I think it was Light Rail Now!) that they do.
>>> Bi-articulated buses are actually three buses attached by two articulations, and are capable of carrying 270 passengers...<<<
I find that fact nothing short of incredible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Personally, I think BRT is a GREAT idea if it's done right -- with an exclusive, grade separated right of way in densely developed central areas and signal priority an exclusive lanes in outlying areas.
Essentially, it recreates the transit systems of mid-size European cities, but with buses rather than rail. You have street running vehicles in the outskirts, then you get on a busway and go express to Downtown, the airport, the stadium, and other key destinations.
Of course, it would be nice to have streets criss-crossed by electrified street railways feeding into downtown subways, like some of the cities pictured here. But is that really an option for a typical U.S. city? Only if you have something like BRT in place, and a very different land use pattern grows up around if over a few decades!
Several cities in the US have found that bringing LRV back helps with their urban renewal plans. Some of these started as just a short tourist trolley line. Can BRT have the same effect ?
If they take the long view, i.e. spend enough money to put in private ROW & high platforms for BRT with the goal of upgrading to LRV. Then as urban renewal begins & traffic improves convert to rails. This keeps the process going & makes the city fathers smile.
while I defer to NOONE in love for flanged steel wheels on steel rails, my personal; experience of BRT is positive. Last year I spent several days in LA, using the 'Red Metro Rapid Bus' on Wilshire to get from where I was staying to UCLA for a graduation, & other trips. The service was frequent and quick. The bus ran many blocks between stops and rarely was stuck in traffic. Clearly passengers were convinced, 'cause it was heavily used. The shelters had electronic signage pridicting arrivals--mosyly accurate. OF COURSE, I would prefer streetcars, but a bus with lane priority is better than a trolley stuck in traffic. Rapid is the operative term. As to whether non-rail transit has any place here, much more on topic IMHO than shuttle disasters, sports etc.
>>> I spent several days in LA, using the 'Red Metro Rapid Bus' on Wilshire to get from where I was staying to UCLA for a graduation, & other trips. The service was frequent and quick. <<<
And this is without dedicated bus lanes. L.A. has added two additional North/South Rapid Buses from the Green Line to the Red Line on Vermont Avenue and Broadway. According to Bus Talk, LACMTA is buying artics for use on the Rapid Bus Lines to increase capacity. It is nowhere near rail, but better than regular bus service.
Tom
>> It is nowhere near rail, but better than regular bus
service. << Agreed, the Wilshire route is not "full BRT" no TVM's, mp reserved lanes, but still pretty good.
It's making good use of what they have.
First of all let me just say I have always preferred rail over bus, however...
Ottawa has had BRT on a dedicated network of roadways (the transitway)since the late 1970's, and it works quite well. They don't use any new concept vehicles, just regular buses, usually articulated. The transitway routes, 95 and 97, run at 3-5 minute headways and a host of other routes use the system as well. At rush hour, every point in Ottawa is connected to the downtown core with a system of express buses, which pick up people in their respective neighbourhoods and bring them quickly downtown via reserved lanes and the transitway.
To supplement the transitway, and to deal with the growth being experienced in Ottawa, the O-Train system was initiated in 2001. Currently only one five-station line is in service but the city council just approved expansion, with O-Train lines going where the transitway doesn't. The transitway is also pretty much ready to convert to light rail should the need arise, but I don't see them going through with this as the transitway works well just the way it is.
Just thought I'd point this out as an example of where BRT works. You can learn more about Ottawa's system at their website
SpurBus
Sorry, another oddity I ran across on the European Railway Server, it would seem that somebody came up with an amazing idea to keep a rubberwheeled bus on a fixed ROW like a trolley. I'd trust that thing a heck of a lot more than any computerized POS that has to trace a line on the pavement to get from point A to B.
Eugene, OR's transit authority's website has artist renderings of the Civis bus (one of the so-called "flex-trolleys") running in a similar kind of ROW to that one, except that it would be in regular streets. The Spurbuses do have a horizontal guidewheel that is supposed to keep them on the guideway.
What is their web address?
Peace,
ANDEE
It's www.ltd.org - then click on Bus Rapid Tranist. They have some video images too.
Cool link, THANKS.
Peace,
ANDEE
As I've said, it isn't real BRT unless you have a grade separated busway or busways, with weather protected stations that allow a pull-off for express service to go by without stopping, at the core. It needs to be just like light rail, except that street-running buses can get on it as well.
As for BRT in NYC, two places come to mind. One is Staten Island. If they turn the north shore line in light rail, it will be usable only by those who can walk to the station. It will also cost a lot of money. If they turn it into a busway with pull off stations, they can have all the north shore buses run north-south to it, then express right to St. George, in addition to having a route serve stations along the way.
The other is additional "crosstown" routes, those that don't got Manhattan and so don't draw enough passengers to justify rail. My first candidate, as I've said, is 125th Street and then to LaGuardia on the M60 Route, then onto Flushing. You'd build underpasses on some of the avenues east of Central Park to get the line to the Triboro with a minimum of delay.
Finally, I think BRT is the way to go for Albany. For the cost of one rail line (they are stuck arguing over where to put the 1/2 line they can afford) they can build several busways in a regional system.
Hartford's also trying the busway thing. ConnDOT is actively planning one between Hartford and New Britain and studying busways between Hartford and Manchester and Bloomfield. I guess it can work, but it makes me think that busways could spell bad news for light rail because of the lower construction costs and the greater degree of flexibility.
Hartford is different from a lot of cities that are adding communter rail, i.e. at one time they had a lot of rail lines (trolley & freight), but most are gone.
So, the problem is converting a little used freight line, it's creating one from the ground up. That's where BRT could be a first step, i.e. if the create private ROW to some extent for this bus service then they COULD evolve into a light rail system.
The second problem is that Conn doesn't seem to care too much about commuter rail, even with a couple of trolley museums at opposite ends of the state :-(
I know - I think a diesel light rail system should be considered. Maybe it will eventually evolve into one.
They are talking about a couple of old RxR ROWs, e.g. New Britian to Hartford, but that is the exception rather then the rule.
I'm very disapointed that the State of Conn paid to fix up the Middletown to Harford ROW, for freight, but it isn't being used :-(
Seems that P & W says there aren't any customers, so how did they get the money in the first place ? That money could have been much better spent !
IINM that's Essen, Germany. In fact I've been along that very Autobahn.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Denver, which has a proper LRT system, system some of it on-street, but also has a free bus service running from Union Station (with direct transfer from one of the terminals of the LRT) down through the pedestrianised main street of historic downtown, terminating at a circle near the State Capitol. It is very frequent, well used, and connects well with both LRT lines. Is that a BRT? If so, it is a successful one.
>>> Is that a BRT? <<<
There are so many definitions of BRT that it is hard to include or exclude certain systems, but what you described sounds more like a free shuttle than BRT. Typically a BRT system travels faster than a conventional bus because of longer distances between stops and often due to dedicated bus lanes or as in Los Angeles, technology that helps the buses avoid red traffic signals.
Tom
The article in "Metro" says there is about 150 cities thinking about how "BRT" might be added to there system.
However many of these city planners have been "distracted by the cosmetic details" and "the politians (just) want to stand in front and cut the ribbon".
If all they realy need is a Express bus or a local with more capacity, i.e. an articulated, these aren't BRT, so calling it so is just using a new buzz word rather then a fundamental change in thinking about how to serve their commuting public.
Dallas, Denver, Seattle, NJ (HBLR) and others have put tracks back in the streets & it's working.
Seattle? Aren't they having trouble getting their light rail lines off the ground? They do have the Waterfront Streetcar, but that is a short line and I haven't heard of any plans to expand it.
Now Portland, down I-5 from Seattle, their light rail system is a big success as is the Portland Streetcar.
Opps, you're right it's MAX at Portland. The one with the very deep tunnel.
The last R143's were running the burn test on Monday. Start counting the days left of the R42's on the L line.
Robert
The last R143's were running the burn test on Monday. Start counting the days left of the R42's on the L line.
I can't believe that after all these years, the L's railfan windows will be gone. I had the opportunity to enjoy the GO on the L line this weekend, wrong-railing through the 14th Street tunnel, but unfortunately not only was someone hogging almost the entire window, the extent of it was through the cab of the "future" of the L line.
One of my happiest memories of the L line was riding from 1st Ave to Myrtle Ave between cars (shhhh) on the slant ends of the R40's as a teenager.
It's the end of an era there too, just like the redbirds, except fortunately, the R42's are not going to the fishies.
Just a question, but when a subway car is scrapped, what parts are tossed and what parts are salvaged? And as for those parts, what do they do with them? Melt them or something?
Well, when I said, "The R42's aren't going to the fishies", I really meant "....aren't going to the fishies at this time" meaning that they are not leaving the system YET, unlike the redbirds.
But since you brought up "scrapping" I believe the metal parts are melted down and reused when train is scrapped. The Redbirds had asbestos in them, so it was easier to just sink them. The next cars to be scrapped (unfortunately, probably the R40's), may just be melted down.
As for what is salvaged and what is scrapped when a car hits the torch, the metal of course is mostly salvaged. Things like plastic windows, seats, etc are probably just thrown out....or wind up in a railfan's finished basement.....
Well, when I said, "The R42's aren't going to the fishies", I realy meant "....aren't going to the fishies at this time" meaning that they are not leaving the system YET, unlike the redbirds.
But since you brought up "scrapping" I believe the metal parts are melted down and reused when train is scrapped. The Redbirds had asbestos in them, so it was easier to just sink them. The next cars to be scrapped (unfortunately, probably the R40's), may just be melted down.
As for what is salvaged and what is scrapped when a car hits the torch, the metal of course is mostly salvaged. Things like plastic windows, seats, etc are probably just thrown out....or wind up in a railfan's finished basement.....
Well I like the L Line now, I like those R143's.
Well I like the L Line now
I still like the L line also. I will however miss the R42's (and the R40-R40M's) on it. It's a big part of my teenaged and early 20's years that is leaving the L line, so it's hard for me to warm up to the replacements. The L line with it's R40-42's WAS my life every day for many years, and even though I rode it with the R27-30's too, my "best" years, so to speak, were spent there with the R40-42's on the L.
So yes, I do have an aversion to the R143's. But I will give them this - they are more attractive both inside and out than their IRT cousins. They do look pretty sharp on the exterior, and the only thing that would stop me from giving them an "A" on the exterior aesthetics, it the red "L" as opposed to the rollsigns like the R110's had. I am sorry the TA no longer will be using rollsigns.
I am sorry the TA no longer will be using rollsigns.
Quite the fact, but the fact of the matter is that electronic signs are simply more efficient to use. I mean, imagine all of that cranking. :)
Not to worry about them rollsigns, Black and Decker had a working solution. I often wonder about "keyboard error, press any key to reboot train." :)
Press the Any Key, but if I'm in that situation, what happens if I can't find it!? :)
Welcome to Microsoft Conundrum. (tm)
I would like the digital signs to be atleast color, I don't like the red color in front.
Meh, an argument could arise by why only one color was made usable and not several for sake of identifying individual routes. Money could be used for it, but I think maybe, just maybe, red is the easiest to see from far distances in this case. In reality, telling the letter/number is imperative than color. Besides, can LED's display other colors?
LEDs are kinda dependent upon what it's made of, it's like trying to do a small TV with christmas lights. It's definitely possible, you could bundle a blue, red and green LED together, and then vary the light output from them in a matrix-like way, less red and green light, you got 8th ave blue, a bit of green and blue mixed with red, and theres 6th ave Orange, even purple could be done, retrofitted R142s could run on the 7.
Really part of the problem is that LEDs vary wildly in price and quality. Red LEDs are perhaps the cheapest, they emit the lowest energy, lowest wavelenth light and consequently were the first to be patented and the easiest to make. Green LEDs emit light a bit more intense, but are still considered cheap and easily mass produced. Blue LEDs are the latest advancement in LED technology, IIRC they came out in 1996, and are now found in moderate and high-end electronics like Cell-phones, fancy car radios and so on. Blue LEDs emit the highest energy light, and are so far the most expensive of the group, their discovery allowed for the creation of DVDs, since the shorter wavelength blue light allowed for data to be packed onto CDs more closely together, a Red LED long wavelength could not read data quite as close together as a blue LED.
Really this kind of thing should start being seen within 10 years overseas, maybe 30 to 40 in NY, LEDs probably need to get smaller and more powerful before it could work, you'll have to pack the whole thing into that tiny cyclops display on the R142 and up cars. If the big rollsign window was available it would make things easier, but NYCTA seems to be moving away from that kind of thing.
I saw one of those blue lights at the New York Stock Exchange. They look preety.
Excuse me!
I saw one of those blue lights at the New York Stock Exchange. They look pretty.
Excuse me!
Yes, red LED's are the cheaper. The older Yellow-green (like on the newest bus signs, or the green in the RYG signs) is made with the same compound as red, and is just as cheap. Pure green, as used on signals and full color displays is made with the same compound as blue (Gallium Nitride), and cost around the same. There's also white, various other shades of blue, and even ultraviolet, also made with GaN.
Then there a single LED's with all 3 chips. This is what would be useful on the signs, rather than separate red green & blue units. These are even more expensive and thus not as common as the others. They're not on cellphones and other gagdets yet, but they do have a pair for the car hood and I have a nightlight that uses one.
The prices have come down, and they are now available in "daylight visible" brightness. This can be found on the new station entrance ad signs. The TA had gone for the red or amber only signs on trains and buses because at the time those were the only ones visible enough in daylight (the green LED bus signs still required flipdot accompaniment for sufficient daylight visibility). But now supposedly the full colors are brighter. I have just handed in my latest Employee Suggestion form today suggesting this among other changes for the R-160's.
It seems they are still being ignored by transit systems, probably beause of the price still. I don't know how cheap they will have to become before they are deemed cost-efficient (individually, they can be gotten for $2-4 now, while the others are less than $1). I was hoping WMATA would use this on the new cars so the whole text can be in color instead of having just a short blank section of flipdot display the line color. But with a thread below talking about WMATA flipdots, I assume that is what they are sticking with.
But it won't take 30-40 years.
Actually, a Blu-Ray disc is just coming out for the first time around now. (By Sony) DVD's use red lasers, and CD's use infrared. But you're right about shorter wavelengths (red vs. infrared) allowing for a smaller track pitch. The Blu-Ray discs will even hold many more GB of data.
"Quite the fact, but the fact of the matter is that electronic signs are simply more efficient to use. I mean, imagine all of that cranking. :) "
It's enough to make you cranky by the end of your shift.
:0)
True, but it wouldn't be too much cranking if they used rollsigns on the bulkheads and LEDs on the sides like they did on the R44s, R46s and R110B.
My early memories were Brightliners on the Broadway Express, with A/B uints on the 14th St Canarsie. It wasen't called the LL yet.
I remember my last A/B ride when the TO was having trouble with the brakes, and went deadman at eash station.
>>> but unfortunately not only was someone hogging almost the entire window, the extent of it was through the cab of the "future" of the L line. <<<
Looks like another railfan beat you to the R143's window. Wouldn't that make it a railfan window? So railfan windows are not gone from the L, and they will not be gone from the IRT either. When the cab door no longer has any window of any kind, like in Montreal, then you can say the railfan window is gone.
I think the existence of a railfan window is of no concern, but whether it is USABLE is another matter.
I've noticed as I was typing responses that I was able to read some posts even though my response submittal said, "The post you are responding to has been deleted."
Caught me while I was at it. Are you really surprised that thread bit the dust? You guys just can't resist, can you.
Some posts defy the ability to ignore, hence the off-topic rambling.
When something like this happens, and a thread veers totally off-topic, is there some way the on-topic messages can be retained, or does the baby have to get thrown out with the bath water, so to speak?
This happened to a thread that I was involved in a time ago. The thread had a whole section of messages on-topic, then another one off-topic, and more on-topic messages scattered in-between. As David has replied to me before, it is his consent whether he will sift through all of the numerous postings to see whether they're on or off topic, and sometimes, one whole section of the thread will be deleted (not the whole thread) even if in that deleted portion, there were occasional on-topic posts.
"Beggers" can't be choosers. It's important just to stay on-topic.
There was only one on topic post in the graffiti thread, and that was the first; even that one was questionable since it seemed to mention graffiti and trains only as an aside to bring up anti war sentiment.
Sorry Dave, I just got sucked in again. It works every time. Let some guy go off topic on some political item and I get involved. Good you deleted the thread because I said something to my friend Anon e mouse that I wished I hadn't. Glad he didn't read it.
Apologies once again for MY taking part in it. Tried to ignore it for quite a while, but you're ABSOLUTELY right. Sometimes the bright and shiny gets SO intense, it's as unavoidable as lemming walking out in front of a bus.
Not to make even MORE work for you, but have you ever considered the possiblity of tagging those cast-offs as "read-only" to a separate "board" called "Kids, don't try this at home?" When I ran a BBS many years ago, we had a room which we called "The Dumpster" in which all off-topics and flames got moved as a means of enforcing our own policies - let them all hang out to dry and couldn't be responded to. Sort of a wall of shame.
Nah, you're too dignified to do that, but it would serve as an example of what NOT to do, and also allow those who wondered WHY threads died to find out. Just a thought ... and probably a very bad one at that. :)
have you ever considered the possiblity of tagging those cast-offs as "read-only" to a separate "board" called "Kids, don't try this at home?"
Doesn't sound like a good plan. Some people would work to get included.
Yeah, like I said, may not be the best idea. But that's what I did on an old BBS or two I ran for about thirteen years. Got the point across and stopped me from having to handle all the "what happened?" emails. :)
Then again, I had my own philosophy, better to sideline than censor, that was one of the underlying themes of the place(s) I did, so I was kinda hamstrung (no offense to our porcine friends) by my own philosophies.
>>> Doesn't sound like a good plan. Some people would work to get included. <<<
But anyone regularly showing up there could be given a "time out" like other naughty children.
Tom
Well I do have a way to mark a post as no-followups-permitted but it doesn't really matter when after doing a few hours of legitimate work I get a chance to pop back to Subtalk and there's 45 messages of garbage, right? The only way it works is to catch it at the start. As for moving the messages somewhere else, why should I have to do that, when I have one simple rule for the site: Rail/transit posts only please!
No argument there, it's your HOME and we gotta abide by the rules or find another "home" to trash. Again, I apologize for jumping in, I've really been trying very hard to be a good boy lately. Damned shame that folks feel the need to be at each other's throats and take things SO seriously. :(
Now would it be so simple to talk about rail transportation instead of all thses off topic posts. This way it's less work for you to delete these OT messages.
It's your privilege, of course.
Well, that thread was pretty much off-topic, but I was surprised that you cut it (though it's just as well).
At least at the time I last looked at it, it was WAY more civilized than other threads that lasted much longer.
Well, when I get paid to read subtalk 24/7 maybe some of those other threads "won't last much longer".
Is it possible to ban responses to threads instead of deleting them?
Some one would just create a new one and continue onward. I've seen it myself. Or worse, they'd just ramble on in another established thread and kill that one too. :(
Hmmm, this seem like another thread that is on the tracks for the 76th Street in the sky.......
Ladies and germs of the jury, I rest my case. :)
STEP LIVELY! Watch the closing tunnel, please.
B: Bedford Park Blvd (rush) or 145th (middays/evenings) to Coney Island via Concourse, CPW local, 6th Ave express, Manhattan bridge, 4th Ave express and Sea Beach. Would operate as shuttle after midnight on weekdays and all day/night on weekends.
D: 205th Street Bronx to Brighton Beach (as Brighton express weekdays/evenings/weekends) or Coney Island (nights) via Concourse, CPW express, 6th Ave express, Manhattan Bridge and Brighton.
M: Same as today
N: Astoria to Coney Island via Astoria, Broadway express (south of Times Sq), Manhattan Bridge, 4th Ave express and West End, weekdays/weeknights. Nights/weekends via Broadway local and Montague St. tunnel.
Q: 57th/7th Ave to Coney Island all times except nights via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge & Brighton local
R: Same as today
W: Astoria to Whitehall St. all times except nights and weekends via Astoria local and Broadway local.
I made modifications to those (David) who lamented about the need for 2 weekend Broadway local services running thru lower Manhattan and those who wished to see 2 Brighton routes on weekends. This new plan should satisfy everyone.
I am sure happy about this plan, for sure. If Fulton St, 4th Ave, and IRT lines in Brooklyn all have 7 day a week express service, so can the Brighton Line. And it has the second longest express line in line trackage in Brooklyn also (second to to Fulton St.).
Thank you Chris, let's hope it becomes reality on the following pick.
Run the D local on weekends/mights in manhattan
There's no need for two CPW locals on weekends. If there was, I'd run the B into Manhattan.
I disagree. CPW needs two locals on weekends and one express. And the locals should run at headways of 10 mins or less at times such as 8:30am.
theres no need for ANY express weekends/nights on CPW(while it saves some people 3 minutes, it costs more people 10-20)
You don't use that line on weekends much, eh?
I use it daily, and I see the expresses pas by empty with more people ojn each platform then on each train.
I don't agree that they should have no express on CPW weekends/nights, however they do not need two. The local service on the weekends is horrible with just the C. I feel they should make either the A or the D local, when the B goes to sleep. I would prefer the D to be the local, as it would be less confusing to passengers because the A could remain the express for the length of the line. After the E joins the 8th Ave line, you don't need three locals, and it would be confusing to make the A only half an express on just on the 8th Avenue part.
This way you still have the express service which is a good service, but at least you wouldn't have to wait for an eternity if you walk into a CPW station just as a C is pulling out. That's good for at least 20 minutes if you are lucky, but 30 is not unheard of.
C trains run every 10 minutes on the weekends.
according to schedules, but 30 minutes is to frequently the correct figure
Yes, in theory the C is every 10 minutes, but......
Not at 8:30am. It is 15 minutes. This past Sunday, it was 18 minutes between trains at 8:30am.
That can be adjusted.
Only between 11:05am and 4:34pm SB and between 11:16am and 5:06pm NB out of the respective terminals on Sunday.
If that's an unsatisfactory service plan, it can be adjusted to meet the needed demand.
I'd say, run service:
B- All times, 205th-Coney island , on pre 7/01 routing
D- Weekdays, Bedford Park-Brighton beach, Express
N- All times, same route, except,service(nights via tunnel, other times via brige and express)
Q- Current "local" service,All times to 57/7, local nights
W- daytimes, Astoria-Whitehall
ALL NIGHT TRAINS TO BE LOCAL
I have no problem with running the D local north of 59th St at night.
There is greater demand for a second local than for a second express.
Stand at Columbus Circle on a Sunday morning and compare passenger loads on C's and D's.
If demand is THAT great, then there would be service provided to meet it.
Woah. Hold it. So Brighton gets two services into Manhattan on weekends while Sea Beach gets none?!
Good point. I think the N should have weekend (but not late night) express service over the bridge into Manhattan. Otherwise I think his plan is a good guess of how the MTA would run service once the MB reopens in 2004. I still wish though that the M returns to Brighton as a local while the B and W both run on the West End.
We could (legitimately) argue over the details of what goes where (and right now I'm not going to bother), but it seems quite silly to run two Brighton services but not even one Sea Beach service into Manhattan. At the very least, pull the J through -- it's only a few stops between Chambers and Pacific.
David G,
Actually, I've just taken another look at this plan. I now notice that the B is a shuttle during the whole weekend, which I don't agree with. The B should operate all times except nights (when it's a shuttle on the West End). As for the M train, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
The Sea Beach is a ghost train on weekends. The 4th Ave line would already have 2 trains going into Manhattan (N, R). I already rerouted the N via the tunnel based on your concerns that Broadway needs 2 local services on weekends. My original plan had the N on the bridge on weekends, and you shot that down. One diversion which helps one group of riders often hurts others. And we can't run excessive service to satisfy EVERY potential rider. Weekend Sea Beach riders will have to transfer trains at Pacific St. You can't justify running the B and D train over the north side of the bridge and have NOTHING running over the south side, since you seem to disapprove of weekend Q service.
(The Sea Beach is a ghost train on weekends.)
So, by terminating it at Pacific you end it just where it starts to get passengers.
There's a need for 3 Broadway services and 2 6th Ave services on weekends, and there are 5 South Brooklyn lines (I include the Culver), so having one service from each line go to Manhattan makes the most sense.
There's a need for 3 Broadway services and 2 6th Ave services on weekends, and there are 5 South Brooklyn lines (I include the Culver), so having one service from each line go to Manhattan makes the most sense
My plan has them:
Broadway: N/Q/R
6th Ave: D/F
There is NO need for 5 Manhattan-bound services from Dekalb on weekends. For most of this station's history, it hasn't had more than 4 (discounting the seasonal Brighton/Nassau specials). One route (N) can easily handle both Sea Beach and West End ridership on weekends.
I was wondering, how about giving passengers five trains through DeKalb on weekends (the B and N would both skip DeKalb while the D, Q and R stop at DeKalb)? However we'd limit service headways on all these lines to either 12 or 15 minutes depending on the line (except for the R which would have 8). Passengers would still see their line head into Manhattan, they'll just have to wait longer.
I'd rather run the Sea Beach as a shuttle and keep the other lines at shorter headways. Inconveniences fewer people.
Running both a Brighton Local (D/Q) and a Brighton Express (Q/B) on 12-15 minute headways is a waste of time - it loses more people more time than it saves. Okay, it actually would provide a real time saving for those out at Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay: on 12 min headways express service would benefit them on average by 4 minutes (28 mins (22 journey express + 6 wait) rather than 32 mins (29 journey local + 3 wait)), or on 15 minute headways by 3¼ minutes (29½ mins (22+7½) rather than 32¾ (29+3¾)); but would providing those two stations be worth screwing over riders at local stations with DOUBLE the wait. Without ridership stats for every station it would be difficult to tell. My hunch is that it is not worth it.
Agreed. Run the Sea Beach (B) as a shuttle and run everything else at 6 TPH.
Fred is NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY about this.
Peace,
ANDEE
"There's a need for 3 Broadway services and 2 6th Ave services on weekends, and there are 5 South Brooklyn lines (I include the Culver), so having one service from each line go to Manhattan makes the most sense."
I disagree. It does not make sense at all in light of the fact that the proportion of Brighton riders to 4th Av. riders is roughly 13:17. If four trains are being sent through Dekalb on weekends, then 2 of those should be Brighton trains. The 4th Av. train with the most ridership is the West End. One of the other two should then also go through Dekalb while the line with the least ridership should be reduced to a shuttle. That, to me, is what makes sense.
Right Chris--what's with that guy anyway? Someone is going to have to talk to him like a Dutch uncle and show him the way. No service on the south side of the bridge on weekends? How bizarre. Well, I told Dave to go back to the drawing board and come out with a service plan that we can all live with, but the guy seems to he holding out on us.
"Woah. Hold it. So Brighton gets two services into Manhattan on weekends while Sea Beach gets none?!"
Ratio of passengers of all 4th Av. lines vs. Brighton is roughly 17:13. With 4 trains running to Manhattan from these lines at any given time, 2 + 2 is definitely closer to the 17:13 ratio than is 3 + 1.
But, we're quibbling about something that is not going to happen, according to a Subtalker David who knows about these things. According to him, there is no chance of regularly scheduled weekend Brighton Express (all year round, the interpretation being mine). But we can still hope for it seasonally.
If current Brighton trains were filled to capacity on weekends, you'd have a valid point.
But they're not -- they're moderately crowded at most. (A small service increase might be appropriate.) That means we're still in the realm of providing basic service to each line, not alleviating crowding. A Brighton express is not a basic service; Sea Beach service to Manhattan is.
Also, I just noticed that this latest plan has two Brighton-bridge trains and two 4th Avenue-tunnel trains on weekends. While that makes live easy in the towers, it turns DeKalb into a very busy transfer point, much moreso than necessary.
David, I don't find either of your points at all convincing. (Sorry.) I don't agree about your concept of basic service. And cross-platform transfers, such as at Dekalb, are not at all difficult; the TA has acknowledged this tacitly since 1986 by making all Brighton trains go via bridge.
(Also, I just noticed that this latest plan has two Brighton-bridge trains and two 4th Avenue-tunnel trains on weekends. While that makes live easy in the towers, it turns DeKalb into a very busy transfer point, much moreso than necessary.)
Interesting point. There are 4 or more major locations similar to Dekalb where you could either arrange service for the convenience of the towers or, instead, for the convenience of the passengers, allowing people on one route multiple destinations.
In two cases, the routing is for the convenience of the towers and to minimize delays: no 1/9s go express at 96th, no Fulton Line trains go up 6th Ave. (either diverging at Jay St or at W 4th where there's even a flying junction).
In two cases: it's for the convenience of the passengers:
1. Queens Blvd local and express trains each have the choice of 2 separate tunnels in the vicinity of Queens Plaza.
2. Flatbush/Notrand riders get a handful of 5s in addition to their 2s in rush hour.
I understand that QB has to be the way it is to get express riders into 63rd St. But I am amazed that NYCT does what it does on the Flatbush Line, especially since that's a grade level crossing that reduces capacity and causes many delays.
You've conflated two different types of interlocking.
DeKalb is a flying junction, like W4. A Brighton-tunnel train doesn't cross paths with a 4th Avenue-bridge train. The various interlockings around Queens Plaza allow for all of the current movements with no crossing paths. Of course, the potential for delays still exists, if two trains bound for the same track approach it simultaneously.
Jay, 96th, and Rogers are not flying junctions. A Culver-Cranberry train crosses paths with a Fulton-Rutgers train. An Upper Broadway-express train crosses paths with a Lenox-local train. A Nostrand-express train crosses paths with an Eastern Parkway local train.
It does seem strange that of these five examples, one from each category is in use.
The TA is adament about not having a Brighton/tunnel route. I deliberatley dismissed integrating one into my plan based on this premise.
And a Brighton/tunnel route is definitely not as necessary today as it was in 1920, or in 1950, and probably not as necessary even as in November 1967.
No, Chris R27-R30 is adamant about not having a Brighton/tunnel route. I have never heard this claim from anyone else.
I could see why NYCT might lean against such a routing on weekdays. But on weekends? In case you're unaware, the Q will be running through the tunnel on weekends beginning in a few months.
I simply don't understand why you want to give Brighton riders two direct routes to Manhattan on weekends while not giving Sea Beach riders any. If Brighton express service is warranted (I don't think it is, but I'm willing to accept that others disagree), then one of the Brightons -- preferably the express -- can be linked up with the J, which ends only a few stops shy of DeKalb. (Why the express? So that passengers at local stops will have direct access to the part of Manhattan that they're probably going to.) Then send two 4th Avenue services via tunnel to Broadway and a third via bridge, preferably to 6th (for service variety -- no point in sending all three 4th Avenue services up Broadway).
Using the letters we're all familiar with, that gives us the Q as the Brighton local/Broadway express, the J(!) as the Brighton express/Nassau, the R as the 4th Avenue local/Broadway local, the N as the Sea Beach/Broadway local, and the B as the West End/6th Avenue express. (This is daytime weekend service. At night I'd probably cut the J to Broad and the R to Pacific while running everything else local everywhere.)
This subthread seems to agree that on the weekend 6th Ave needs 2 services at roughly 8 tph (D and F in current parlance) each while Broadway needs 3 at roughly 6 tph each.
I see only one reasonable way to do this (we're talking weekends only here) if we assume the D is Brighton-6th-Concourse (as Train Dude claims is a given):
- D Brighton-6th-Concourse
- F as currently
- R as currently
- N Sea Beach and tunnel (sorry, Fred, but it makes sense on the weekend; it still gets to see the bridge on weekdays)
- YELLOW B West End to bridge to 57th
It's slightly confusing for West Enders to have an Orange B on weekdays and a yellow B on weekends, but overall it's the least disruptive to everyone else's patterns, and with all the changes since 1967 the West End doesn't really have a traditional route to Manhattan any more. It would also allow NYCT to say this is restoration of prior patterns, and thus avoid hearings.
If they made the Sea Beach into a permanent weekend shuttle, they'd have to hold hearings and risk the wrath of Fred and his former neighbors. If they did any other radical changes, they would probably also be sued by someone if they tried to do it without hearings.
The reason I don't like that is that it gives the 4th Avenue line three services to Broadway and no services to anywhere else.
I'm not willing to accept any givens about what's going to happen to the D. The system as a whole can't be held hostage to the wishes of a few.
(The reason I don't like that is that it gives the 4th Avenue line three services to Broadway and no services to anywhere else.)
Even if the West End goes to 6th Ave on the weekends, 2/3 of 4th Ave riders will still need to cross the platform at Pacific to catch it. It's not much more of a burden for all of them to cross the platform at Dekalb. As long as every line has one service (which is likely on weekends), most people will have to change trains somewhere to get to their destination. And as long as you do something halfway reasonable, relatively few will have to change trains twice.
(The system as a whole can't be held hostage to the wishes of a few.)
One would hope not. But the MTA has a tremendous incentive to put together a plan that they can call a resumption of prior service, so that they don't have to hold public hearings. Whenever they hold hearings, they get a huge amount of negative publicity, whether deserved or not.
The West End runs fairly close to the Sea Beach. If West End trains and Sea Beach trains go to different places, people who happen to live roughly equidistant from the two can pick the line that takes them directly where they're going.
Incidentally, the B, if it followed its natural routing, wouldn't stop at DeKalb at all, so passengers for 6th Avenue would have to either walk across Atlantic-Pacific or transfer twice. Despite the risk of delays, I'd suggest that no weekend trains bypass DeKalb, specifically to permit a full complement of transfers. On weekdays, there will presumably be both 6th Avenue and Broadway bridge trains coming from 4th Avenue, so transfers can be done at Pacific.
As for the public hearing issue, you're probably right. If only we could (a) hold the politicians to the same signup rules and time limits as everyone else and (b) encourage those in favor of a proposal to show up and say so.
Hey AIM, you're in there pitching and I thank you for considering me and my obsession with my train on the bridge. Perhaps some adjustments will have to be made, but at least you have the Sea Beach on the bridge on weekdays for the better part of the day. I take it, though, that you would put the N in the tunnel at night? Is that right? I can take that but I would sure like to see my train out of the rathole on weekends if at all possible, even it mean making it a Pacific to Coney Island train on Saturday and Sunday. At least I can transfer to the Sea Beach there and know that: One, it is out of the Montague pest hole and, two, I don't have to ride in that God forsaken pit.
Try this one, Fred:
(A) unchanged
(B) 168 - CPW Lcl - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach (Monday-Friday, not Nights)
(C) BPB - CPW Lcl - 8th Av Lcl - Fulton Lcl - Euclid (outside rush hours curtailed to 145)
(D) 205 - Concourse Pk Dir Exp - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Exp West End - CI (local on CPW when (B) doesn't run)
(E)(F)(G)(J)(L)(M) unchanged
(N) Astoria - B'way Exp - 4th Av Exp - Sea Beach - CI (Nights and Weekends B'way Lcl, via Tunnel)
(Q) 57/7 - B'way Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI
(R)(S)(S)(V) unchanged
(W) Astoria - Whitehall (Monday-Friday, not Nights)
(Z) unchanged
Well your plan is certainly a hell of a lot better than was we have right now. Couldn't you get it on the bridge at least part of the weekend, though. I have come to the conclusion that it has to be in the tunnel at night, but I'd do anything to avoid the Montague rathole on weekends.
Hey, I like it. The D can continue to "taunt the UWS", as some have said. Nothing would make me happier than being able to thumb my nose at those people waitimg on the local platforms between 59 and 125.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Andee, five will get you ten you will be your wish before I get mine. Know anyone in the TA? If so, PLEASE put in a good word for me and my train. I'm on the left coast so who's going to hear me?
No, Fred I already have my wish, but some would change it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I cannot understand why you would switch the B and D lines in Brooklyn. Brooklyn subway lines always have it's own identity, dating back BEFORE the BRT existence when these steam lines ran at street level. (They are listed on every subway map, West End, Sea Beach, 4th Ave, Culver, Brighton!!) Do we have a Livonia Ave line, or Nostrand Ave line as classic examples on the IRT on the current subway map? The service plan back in 1967 was to have the D moved from the old Culver line to the Brighton line, and remain there, the B line would remian unchanged. The D line although I was a bit disappointed when it lost express service on 4/28/86 (The last day it ran express to BB), it's OK when it ran local. Hated the D/Q skip-stop service pattern, doesn't belong on my line.
But you want this changed, you are only changing history, leave the B and D where they are, they will NOT MOVE FROM THEIR RESIDENCES ANYTIME SOON, AND IN 2004 IT WILL BE ALMOST THE SAME AS 2001.
Please don't mess with my Brighton line, thank you!!!
This board is infested with people who want to change things radically. I'm one of the exceptions.
I can understand where you're coming from Kool-D because I've been there for a long time. I think it would be nice if the TA realized that many people have strong emotional attachments to certain lines and the one thing we hope for is continuity.
Put it this way, you are attached to your N Sea Beach line, and I am attached to my Brighton line. I do give some flexibility as to whether which of the 3 current (and past) lines, the D, M or Q line, run express in Brooklyn, but I will not stand for some alien, no name line running on MY backyard. And I know how you would feel the same way if the W or B line invaded your area along 62-64th Streets and West 7th St. We cannot go back to the old numbered line system on the BMT (I was not around then, but you were), but we can accept what we have been accustomed to now.
But all things aside, the barbs and insults on your line by me, will continue. Gotta make up for lost time since we heaven't heard from your partner #1 Brighton Express Bob, where the heck he has been? Someone has to have fun at your expense so, it will be me.
Since you argue from the point that "Brooklyn subway lines always have it's own identity, dating back BEFORE the BRT existence...", what difference does it make to you that they switch these new designations (that spread over from the unrelated IND)?
Very simple and elegant.
Quibbles:
NYCT has some kind of equipment/yard compatibility issue that makes it prefer to have the Euclid Ave train run to 168th and the CI train to Concourse.
No one rides the M south of Broad St. outside of rush hour.
Someone on the Brighton line would probably sue to block the changes unless there are public hearings, and the MTA would back down.
The Brighton express needs to be 10 tph, but the 168th St local really only needs to be 7 if supplemented by a Concourse local.
The West End train, if supplemented by M service, only needs to be 7 tph, but the Concourse express needs to be 10.
Davey, Davey, Davey, you still don't seem to get it. Listen carefully. You're plan is being rejected out of hand by most of us and me especially because you insist on keeping the Sea Beach in that damn rat infested tunnel and keeping a local. That is not acceptable. NOT ACCEPTABLE. Do you read me? The Sea Beach can be in the tunnel at night, that I grant you. BUT IT MUST BE ON THE BRIDGE DURING THE BETTER PART OF THE DAY AND IT MUST BE EXPRESS IN BROOKLYN AND PARTS OF MANHATTAN. Now get your ass back on the drawing board and come up with a plan that satisfies SBF and the rest of my Subtalk buddies.
Fred, I think you're going to lose the Sea Beach to the tunnel on weekends.
There aren't going to be 4 Broadway services on weekends. If we're really unlucky there will only be 2.
But let's suppose 3 our of the 4 possible lines (West End, Brighton, Sea Beach, and Bay Ridge) head for Broadway. Two should be local and one express.
What do you think the TA will have as its priority when choosing the one that goes express?
The real battle will be weekdays non-rush. A stingy NYCT plan would have the N in the tunnel outside of rush hour, because otherwise they have to run an Astoria-Whitehall W train to supplement the R. As a frequent user of the Broadway line I sure hope they put the N on the bridge all day and run a W local supplement.
AIM: You right in saying that I am not going to get all I want out of this new train schedule when it comes down the tracks, but it has to be an improvement over what the N is going through now. Getting it on the bridge is the first step and making it a permanent express in Brooklyn is another. Of course, when the Stillwell work is done it has to go there as well. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in the next few months.
Fred, unfortunately, the Sea Beach will NEVER be an express, in Brooklyn, again. They took out one of the express tracks some time ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fred meant express between 59th st and Pacific Street only. It's not conducive to restore the old NX line. OTOH I do like the idea of an X line from Brighton Beach to 57/7 via. SBL. Just for the sheer fun of us rabid railfans only.
Right Kool-D. Andee thought I meant the open cut part because that is all I usually talk about when I was poetic about my Sea Beach, so it is not surprising he didn't realize it was the subway part between Pacific and 59th Street. No problem, though, because Andee is in tune with my eccentric personality.
"But on weekends? In case you're unaware, the Q will be running through the tunnel on weekends beginning in a few months."
My spies have informed that the next pick occurs on 4/27. If so, that may be the date that my Q train serves a six-month sentence of being banished from the bridge and going through the rat-hole on weekends.
Yup. Check the passanger loads for both lines.
I like your "adjusted" plan. It is definitely a reasonable alternative to the more likely plan which we have discussed before. While I would prefer the Q to run express in Brooklyn and the D to run local, I would be happy if this adjusted plan came into fruition.
I flipped the D/Q to give D train crews a break. The Q express run is almost half the length of a D local run, terminal to terminal. Running the D express and Q local allows 10 minutes to be cut from a typical D run.
Yes, I understood your reasoning at the time of my post, and it is a good reason. OTOH, as the D is the 24/7 service according to the plan, it would be a bit less confusing to have the D local and Q express in Brooklyn.
Chris, for the most part I approve. I hate seeing the Sea Beach in the Montague rathole at any time but at least it isn't there in perpetuity.
how's this?
B- All times, 205th-Coney island , on pre 7/01 routing
D- Weekdays, Bedford Park-Brighton beach, Express
N- All times, same route(Astoria to coney island, sea beach),(nights via tunnel, other times via brige and express)
Q- Current "local" service,All times to 57/7, local nights
W- daytimes, Astoria-Whitehall
ALL NIGHT TRAINS TO BE LOCAL
>>>ALL NIGHT TRAINS TO BE LOCAL <<<
Boo--Hiss, speaking as someone who reguarly rides the D train at 0300, to go to work, I hate that idea.
Peace,
ANDEE
IT ONLY TAKES 3 MINUTES LONGER!!!
lol
Yes true, but all the extra BING-BONGS keep me awake.
Peace,
ANDEE
Run R38s on the D with half of the lights out
quiet, and dark
If you had the choice between no express service and 4-car OPTO with express service which would you chooose
I often ride the subway overnights and would prefer more frequent service(currently every 20 min on the Q)
Have you run that remark by all those people who would love to ride the D home at 0300 if only it stopped for them?
They have to wake up at Columbus Circle and stand around for up to 20 minutes waiting for the A.
About that famous high speed R-44 test on the LIRR tracks that allegedly ended up blowing out half the consist's motors:
Why was this test done? I don't recall reading about the TA ever doing hi speed tests on any other new cars they took delivery of in that era.
Anyone know?
They was doing a Maximum Speed test for the R44, the R44 made a world speed record of 88 mph on the LIRR property, it would of made 90+ mph but the test track was coming to a end. This was back in the 70's.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yes, but why was the test done in the first place? Have speed tests been done since then? Were they done before the R-44?
Second avenue subway service was being built to carry trains[R44/46]that ran a high speed[65-70mph]on certain routes,such as the Queens Crosstown superexpress and the Pelham/Dyre CONNECTION,and along SAS. Station were spaced so trains could reach such speeds along a given section of track...
Sounds dubious, since the 1968 SAS subway was only 2 tracks. 80 MPH between local stations? That type of speed may have been of use elsewhere, like on the CPW express, Queens Blvd express, 4th Ave express and the Rockaway line.
"Sounds dubious, since the 1968 SAS subway was only 2 tracks. 80 MPH between local stations?"
It would have been 70-75 between stations. That's not unreasonable with a straight track and stations spaced further apart than they are on other existing lines.
The Queens bypass track (the Super Express to Forest Hills) would essentially have been similar to the LIRR ROW used in the speed trials (albeit a little shorter). The R44 and R46 consists would certainly have managed to reach 80 mph there.
Are they working on High Speed Routes now for that type of operation?
LMAO!
The Second Av Subway now being planned will have stations 0.5 miles apart. I don't know what the operating speed will be.
The Second Av Subway now being planned will have stations 0.5 miles apart. I don't know what the operating speed will be.
By the time the SAS is built, travel at speeds in excess of the speed of light will have become routine, so I guess the answer is extremely fast.
In segments of MARTA where the station spacing is similiar to what you wrote, the max speed is either 37 or 50 mph (exactly those values, as I've seen on the T/O control panels on the Breda cars), depending on what section. On sections downtown where station are about .25 mi or so apart, I pretty sure the speed is 25.
I enjoy MARTA when the limit goes up to 70 on certain stretches such as the run from Buckhead to Dunwoody (which for reasons unknown has several speed limit changes during the whole run), and certain portions on the East line. I think the limit goes as high as 60 from Arts Center to Lindbergh if I'm not mistaken.
Nappy
That run is awesome, especially during rush hour when you see all of those cars on GA 400 stuck in traffic!
The limit is 70, but the trains usually run around 60 on the Arts Center-Lindbergh stretch. I hardly ever go on the Buckhead-Dunwoody line, but it always *seemed* that the speed was slower than what they could go. I don't know what speeds they normally go.
The RTA in Cleavland also hits 70 between stops, which is something on 600V DC overhead... Needless to say, acceleration isn't remarkably high.
BART hits 70 and even 80 at times, and closer to home, SEPTA has a few faily fast parts of the BSS, I think 50 - 60mph.
From what I've seen, it seems to slow speeds of the NY subway are more lawyer related than technical :(
I'm just talking about the short ~1/2 mile segments to get an idea for Ron wha the SAS speed will be. Do you know what the limits are for those systems you mentioned?
"BART hits 70 and even 80 at times"
Good news. Which segments?
I've used BART a handful of times. The fastest I went was in the crossbay tube. The train sustained 45 mph.
I rode on a BART train in 1981 that did 72 through the Transbay Tube. Out in Oakland, that same train got up to 85. Wheeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
Did it make you go deaf? That tunnel has the highest-pitched scream to it I've ever heard. I saw some normal commuters holding their ears.
It wasn't loud at all. Now if that were Chicago's State St. subway, I would be holding my ears. THAT was torture! Even the R-10s in their final days weren't as loud as the 6000s and 2600s underground.
Back in the spring of 1975 before WMATA opened I got the opportunity to ride in the cab of a 2 car train running south out of Rhode Island Avenue. When we hit the bottom of the hill just after the B99 46 signal we were doing 81 MPH. The operator had to stop the train before getting to the New York Avenue overpass as the third rail was not hot beyond the B99 12 signal.
"About that famous high speed R-44 test on the LIRR tracks that allegedly ended up blowing out half the consist's motors"
This has been answered several times in several threads.
OK:
On December 31, 1972, a consist of St. Louis Car and Foundry's R-44 cars made speed runs on LIRR ROW between Woodside and Jamaica (at the time, I believe the LIRR voltage was 660, but you might want to double-check that). The train reached 88 mph empty, and 77 mph with two motors per car purposefully disabled, to indirectly simulate a crush load of passengers. These are official world speed records, holding to this day.
The motors did not burn out. The windings experienced "birdcaging" due to the reaction to centripetal forces. With some tweaking, the R44 is capable of 90+ mph in regular service, and in fact was intended to run 70-80 mph routinely on the Second Av Subway as it was intended to be built in the 1960's and 1970's.
Check out Gene Sansome's book Evolution of NYC Subway Cars" or other sources for details.
So were the R-62, R-68, R-142, and R-143 cars built in any way different from the R-44/46 cars that would prevent them from also hitting 90+ MPH in the same operating conditions?
I don't know. Their top speeds are published, but what they are actually capable of depends on power to weight ratio, gearing, maximum weights when fully loaded vs. empty, acceleration rates, etc.
When the R-44 was relatively new, it seemed to have a very slow rate of acceleration, even compared to the R-46 when they arrived. Was this related to gearing for higher max speeds? Or was this just a function of the reduced number of motors on a 75 foot car. It appeared to me that their acceleration improved with time. Definitely so, since their GOH.
My guess is that it was not power-related, but you'd have to ask somebody who knows for sure, like Train Dude...
When the R-44 was relatively new, it seemed to have a very slow rate of acceleration, even compared to the R-46 when they arrived. Was this related to gearing for higher max speeds? Or was this just a function of the reduced ratio of motors to weight on a 75 foot car. It appeared to me that their acceleration improved with time. Definitely so, since their GOH.
I don't know. Their top speeds are published, but what they are actually capable of depends on power to weight ratio, gearing, maximum weights when fully loaded vs. empty, acceleration rates, etc.
Also, note that the "B" car in an R142 consist has only two motors, not four.
So Is it possible the MTA may have those speeds in the future with any route in the Subway System?
Not unless the signal system is upgraded to modern standards, not 1920's standards. Field shunting was disabled on all NYCT cars so the signal blocks could not be overrun in emergency as happened on the Williamsburg bridge.
If they decide to upgrade the signal system, they would have to upgrade the Subways Trucks, so that it would be kinda comfortable for the passengers because at that speed all the rocking because of the rusty trucks aint good, it would be rockier than the A/C Trains in the Cranberry Tube at 50 mph.
-AcelaExpres2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here"
Not really. The cars were built for the higher speeds field shunting provided. However, the motors on the cars had higher horsepower than the older equipment that the signal system was designed for.
After the WillyB crash, it was determined that the cars had too much power to safely stop in an emergency (or were tripped by the signal system) at running speeds.
Rather than completly refit the signal system, NYCT took the cheap way to correct the speed/signal problem. They disabled the field shunting, which reduced the top speed to what the signal system required.
If the signal system is totally replaced to year 200x standards, then car speeds can increase. Given the known fact that the signal system is so large, it is doubtful the job will be completed in any of our lifetimes.
One correction: It was Jan 1972, not Dec. sorry.
Because the TA was too cheap to ship the cars to the USDOT test track in Colorado.
"Because the TA was too cheap to ship the cars to the USDOT test track in Colorado."
Or because they were smart enough not to.
also,the R 46,at one time ran in ''regulated'' speed [65mph] on the Queen Blvd express..so its not the train at all,its the tracks......
Actually, signal system, I believe the regulated mode was canned because the signals weren't good enough to allow safe operation of it. Of course, with CBTC and all, this shouldn't be hard to engineer around....
I would LOVE to see 65 mph speeds on the CPW express run. The R-10s came mighty close to that - at least you FELT you were going that fast.
There is a major disagreement down here among several former New Yorkers.
Which is the proper name, Grand Central Terminal or Grand Central Station?
I thought that both names were correct. I am told that is wrong.
Which name is correct?
I believe that Grand Central Terminal is correct. Personally, though, I don't think it matters how you say it, as long as people know that you're referring to the big station on 42nd Street and Park Avenue where lots of Metro-North trains stop.
''Station''is the post office...''Terminal'' is the railroad depot.
the big station on 42nd Street and Park Avenue where lots of Metro-North trains stop.
Lady in a rush: "Oi you! Does this train stop anywhere?"
Railroad official: "Well, mam, if it doesn't stop at Grand Central there'll be an almighty smash."
I think it is Grand Central, see the signage on the IRT platforms and on the Shuttle.
I thought the Railroad Terminal was Grand Central Terminal and the subway station was Grand Central Station?
I thought the Railroad Terminal was Grand Central Terminal and the subway station was Grand Central Station?
Grand Central Terminal is the railroad station.
Grand Central station is the subway station. The s is lowercase, the word "station" is no more a part of the proper name than it is a part of the name "86 Street station."
Grand Central Station is a postal facility.
Mark
I agree.
Except that in that context, the 's' is sometimes capitalized. Look at the sign hanging over your nearest subway station entrance for a likely example.
That said, the signage at the Madison Avenue entrance to the shuttle station is confused. It identifies the subway station as Grand Central Terminal but directs those passengers looking for handicap access to Grand Central Station. Whoops!
Except that in that context, the 's' is sometimes capitalized. Look at the sign hanging over your nearest subway station entrance for a likely example.
Sure, but that's a title, so the S is of course properly capitalized.
Mark
The destination signs on the Shuttle refer to it as Grand Central Station (capitalized). Of course, technically, isn't the Shuttle platform Grand Central Terminal?
Only tracks 3 and 4!
That depends; is New Lots a terminal or a station?
It's a terminal - nothing goes south of the station while still in passenger service.
but directs those passengers looking for handicap access to Grand Central Station. Whoops!
This is correct, they will MAIL the handicapped to their destinations!
: ) Elias
Let's have some fun with railroad words - maybe this is the answer (though logic is a limited time offer when burrocrats get involved) ... a TERMINAL is the "end of the line" whereas a STATION would be a stop along the way. My guess is that "Terminal" would be correct until the day comes that they connect Penn STATION (trains run in both directions through it so it can't be rightly called "Penn Terminal", it's JUST a stop along the way) ...
Therefore, enjoy Grand Central TERMINAL until they did a hole and render it just another STATION. :)
Well, you could have two names for Penn. It could be Penn Terminal to any railroad terminating revenue service there (NJT,LIRR), and Penn Station to Amtrak and the Subway.
But actually, it does have two posted names, doesn't it? Don't Amtrak and NJ Transit passengers see "Pennsylvania Station" as they pull in, while LIRR passengers on tracks 16-21 see "Penn Station?"
Ya got me ... only use I have for NYP is trains from Joey's castle to NYC. Although I've seen NJT equipment passing by in the windows in the Amfleet cars, I haven't seen any of the rest of the place. Off to 8th avenue and onto the toy trains. :)
But actually, it does have two posted names, doesn't it? Don't Amtrak and NJ Transit passengers see "Pennsylvania Station" as they pull in, while LIRR passengers on tracks 16-21 see "Penn Station?"
I thought that Penn was just an abbreviation of Pennsyvalia (unless the MTA chose to just name their section after W. Penn but not going along with the longer name).
I was being trite and trivial, obviously.
That;s right, but it would be theoretically possible for a Metro North train from Harmon to enter Grand Central, go around the loop, then continue on to New Haven without reversing direction, making Grand Central a station instead of a terminal!
Ah well, another theory blown to hell. :)
I dunno. That loop track is for turning trains. I don't think anyone's ever been on an "in-service" revenue train that has gone through the loop. And I don't think anyone ever will. So GCT is a terminal.
I don't think they use the loop even for non revenue moves any more, but back in 1984 I got on a train to Brewster on one of the far west loop tracks, and was surprised to see the Diesel powered train (an FL9, I think) pointing in the "wrong" direction. After fighting my way through a cloud of diesel fumes, I got on it and (surprise!) the train proceeded south around the loop and came up the far east side of the terminal (there wasn't even a platform on that track), then continued north along its regular route.
I stand corrected.
It seems to be settled that "Grand Central Terminal" is the proper nomenclature. I don't know if that was always true.
But since there was a very famous radio program in which it was called "Grand Central Station" that name obviously sticks popularly.
FWIW, the local post office station is "Grand Central Station" but no trains stop there. I think.
My 1897 King's Guide makes multiple references to Grand Central Station so it's least possible saying GC Terminal is a more recent affectation.
Vanderbilt's original building (opened 1871) was first known as Grand Central Depot, later as Grand Central Station. The 1913 replacement is and always was Grand Central Terminal.
The original New York & Harlem RR terminal was at Park Ave South and 23 St, though it wasn't particularly Grand, and it wasn't built by the New York Central. The 1871 Grand Central Depot and 1900 Station weren't Terminals. In 1903, when steam service was banned below 42 St, the New York Central opened a design competition for its new Grand Central Terminal.
Actually, it's Little Peripheral Station originally, but the city fathers decided that it was a tad too big for that name, so they changed it...
:0)
lol...you just could barly see it out the corner of your eye,if you blinked .. it was gone...
It's 125th/Park that should be called Petit Central Station, with the others north of it all being petit peripheral stations.
My 1897 King's Guide makes multiple references to Grand Central Station so it's least possible saying GC Terminal is a more recent affectation.
Grand Central Termianl is a Railroad Terminal
Grand Central Station is a Post Office
Grand Central is a Subway Station
End of Story.
Oh, COME on, Elias, this is SUBTALK! It's NEVER the end of the story. When I was growing up in a family of seven my mom always answered the phone "Grand Central Station," so I guess the correct answer, knowing my mom, must be ... Grand Central Terminal.
ROFLMAO...
When I worked for the Franciscans (as building supt.) I had a pager so they could reach me. When I called back to the operator, I would announce myself as the "Grand Central Trainmaster".
One day she replied: "Yeah, and this is the witch at the switch!"
: ) Elias
Grand Central Station is a former depot in CHICAGO, which the B&O once served.
The title of this trend said it all - TERMINAL.
Uh, thinking about it, shouldn't the adjacent subway station be called Grand Central Terminal Station? For that matter, the Penn Station stop should be Pennsylvania Station Station.
And the electricians would go there to rewire the Pennsylvania Station Station Substation Terminals.
Thank you, everyone, for your input on this!
Since there is a difference of opinion even on this board, I guess I had better stop using either Terminal or Station, and just refer to it as Grand Central so there won't be the constant disagreements about it down here.
Thanks Again!
Better yet, just call it "that building at 42nd Street and Park".
There should be absolutely no controversy over this. The
correct name is Grand Central Terminal. This was the name given
to it by the New York Central in 1912 when the current facility
was opened.
Grand Central Station or Grand Central Depot correctly refer to
the pre-1912 facility which existed on the same spot. It was
a single-level train shed with 3 station buildings along 42 St,
one for the NY & Harlem, one of the NY Central & Hudson River RR,
and one of the New Haven RR. Because the New Haven had historical
trackage rights down to the original terminal which was in the
vicinity of 28 St & 4th Ave, this Grand Central Station, which
was opened in the 1870s, I think, had a pair of tracks running
out the south portal and down 4 Ave to 28 St.
This arrangement was discontinued after the reconstruction into
the present 2-level structure with office buildings above the tracks.
The official name of the station was changed to "Terminal" at this
time to reflect the finality of destination.
Amazingly, blasting, excavation, construction of the lower levels,
demolition of the old station buildings and construction of the
present landmark structure were all done under traffic with minimal
disruption to service! Today rebuilding a small (by comparison)
8-track terminal at Coney Island requires a multi-year shutdown!
Why has no one yet mentioned the Grand Central Parkway, over which all of us want an extension of the Astoria line to go, as an el, to LGA?
Why has no one yet mentioned the Grand Central Parkway, over which all of us want an extension of the Astoria line to go, as an el, to LGA?
While we're at it, I believe there's a Grand Central Deli on Lexington. Probably a Grand Central newsstand somewhere too.
There's a Grand Central Camera store on Lexington Ave .. (or there WAS ... it may have been closed down).
--Mark
There's a Grand Central Avenue and a Grand Central Plaza in ... Horseheads, NY. Don't ask me what it's doing there.
Answer ... waiting for CSX to clear the tracks. :)
Neighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :)
--Mark
I wrote a letter and I need comments , please e-mail the comments to the e-mail address on my subtalk SN. Don't worry about the grammar and the spelling errors. I am well aware of my weaknesses in those areas. I need comments on the context. Please help me out, beforee I show this to my school. http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=MidnightDragon
The first entry, right?
more direct link
The first thing to do, in my opinion, is to change the color scheme on the page. Orange text on that background is very hard to read.
As for the letter itself, I think it was a little strange that you said you were neutral, and then you listed a bunch of evidence for being against war. Neutral usually means you put evidence from both opinions.
Has Amtrak Put in the On-Board Satellite Internet Access on their trains yet? Because I remember back a few months ago I posted about their annoucement for this here.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
Why don't you write to them and ask?
LONDON (Reuters) - The children's hit television series Thomas the Tank Engine shows too many crashes and may be making children frightened of going on a train, according to a British psychologist.
That guy needs to shut up. I remember watching Thomas with complete glee.
Complete BS. I have been posting here for years and been a railfan for even longer and I grew up with Thomas. Too bad he got taken off the air here. The fact that he is on in England slipped my mind when I was there, otherwise, I would have watched him again.
The fact that he is on in England slipped my mind when I was there, otherwise, I would have watched him again.
I think you and Jersey Mike should plan Spring Break together ;-)
(See post #458499 to read what I'm talking about)
Yeah, I saw that. I just don't think he and I would have similar itineraries. He would be looking for the nearest Mainline station while I would be looking for the nearest Tube Station I have not been to.
I watched Thomas from the beginning. Little known trivia fact: my mom's friend's nephew was one of the original kids on the show. I'm not sure how many seasons he was on for.
---Brian
Given the state of Railtrack and railroad quality in the UK, I'd say that the show is highly realistic. No sence in keepin kids from the truth.
Actually, what they really need is an episode where Thomas the Tank Engine runs over Barney.
Can we buy tickets for that one and take photos???
One could only hope...
We wouldn't want to have Thomas do that, he's too small, Barney's a good-sized target; you need a bigger engine. Try using Gordon or Diesel instead. If Barney collides with a sizable target like Barney, he's liable to pile up Clarabel and Annie behind him, and remember, those are dreadnought coaches, wooden withal, probably dating from about 1900, similar to Met coach #400 they have at the LT museum.
wayne
Yes, I suppose you're right...
And Dudley the Dragon!
-Robert King
DAMN STRAIGHT!!!
THAT'S TOO FAR!!!!! Whats wrong with dudley the dragon?? Cmon! I mean, if you are looking for adventure, just call out his name!
Humbug! As long as the crashes involve the freight cars (the perennial bad guys) or Diesel or Angus, and not Thomas (or his coaches) or Percy or Gordon or any of the favourite characters, kids shouldn't be alarmed. I have a bunch of photo-story books of all kinds of Thomas adventures, and several show all kinds of train wrecks, including one involving Thomas himself, where he plows into Sir Topham Hat's garden!
Another one has Thomas suffering a bellyache due to a faulty boiler.
wayne
And the episode where Duck ends up in a Barber's and gets - groan - "a close shave"...
Those were comical.... Duck and all
I'll tell you one that made me sh!t my pants every time.....
.......The Flying Kipper. That was scary. I could not watch that one for the longest time. There were a couple, but I can't remember them now.
BTW..... Ringo Starr was soooo much better than Carlin. I stopped watching after there were too many characters. The last "new characters" I ever saw were the brothers that began with a "B" and had trouble with the "diseasel"
The title here is abit misleading as I thought the engine used in the popular children's series was involved in an accident! Trivia fact: The actual full-sized version is up at Essex, CT (or is it at Steamtown?) and is built from an Old BEDT steam engine -- like the one out at the Railroad Museum of Long Island.
The title here is abit misleading as I thought the engine used in the popular children's series was involved in an accident! Trivia fact: The actual full-sized version is up at Essex, CT (or is it at Steamtown?) and is built from an Old BEDT steam engine -- like the one out at the Railroad Museum of Long Island.
I saw this in the paper here in England yesterday and thought at once what idiocy it is.
Incidentally Thomas has been around a lot more than 20 years - he was there in my childhood 50 years ago - but of course that was in *books* and there's no-one left around who can read those, is there?
Reverend W. Awdry rules!
Geez, I suppose the next thing this guy will try to tell us is that Sir Topemhat wears womens underwear. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"Geez, I suppose the next thing this guy will try to tell us is that Sir Topemhat wears womens underwear. 8-) "
Wouldn't surprise me at all, you know what these upper-class English types are like.... (8-)
HAHA, I was going to make that comment, but I figured I'd let a resident of the UK do it first. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
AH ... but is Sir Topem a LUMBERJACK? :)
No, and he didn't expect a kind of a Spanish Inquisition......
Our methods are five (no, three sir) ... bring out ... the COMFY CAB! :)
Scwoo the underwear. I wanna know what that golden-colored dust consists of. Is it "Peruvian Marching Dust?" :)
HAHAHA, you're probably right.
Peace,
ANDEE
RIDICULOUS!!! Watching Thomas was actually what got me into trains in the first place. The crashes were actually the most exciting part, especially the freight cars. If the crashes resulted in injuries to passengers or the engines "dying", I could see where trauma would come from, but nothing that extreme ever happens. The show is cute and comical, not violent. If they want to complain about something that is a negative influence to kids, how about the AIDS muppet or the gay Teletubbies? I say leave Thomas alone. I miss Shining Time Station, AFAIK it doesn't come on anymore.
"If they want to complain about something that is a negative influence to kids, how about the AIDS muppet or the gay Teletubbies?"
I'm familiar with the plans for the AIDS muppet. They will offend bigots and other assorted idiots.
I've never heard of this other thing.
>>>I've never heard of this other thing.<<<
One of Jerry Falwells more idiotic accusations. He charged a few years back that one of the teletubbies is gay.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for posting that info.
Tinkie Winkie (the "purple one") because he has a triangle on top of his head (Jerry's kids say the "universal gay symbol" - thank heavens Jerry never knew about that red hankie of his) and of course Tinkie Winkie carries a purse. Hmmm. Jerry Fallwell needs to hit Christopher Street. :)
>>> Hmmm. Jerry Fallwell needs to hit Christopher Street.<<<<
Heh, we would fix his ass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Damned literalists. :)
Hmmm. Jerry Fallwell needs to hit Christopher Street.
Heh, we would fix his ass.
HOOHAH! Now THAT would be an interesting story!
:-D Andrew
Nah, Jim Bakker under the sofa in the fetal position when he was arrested STILL has that one beat. :)
One of Jerry Falwells more idiotic accusations.
[WARNING: rare political/religious post from chuchubob]
Another of Jerry Falwell's more idiotic pronouncements came shortly after 9-11. Bin Laden had announced that the WTC was destroyed in accordance with the will of Allah to punish New York for being too materialistic instead of being religious. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson one-upped Osama, stating that the WTC was destroyed by God Himself, to punish New York City for being too tolerant.
And to think ... those domestic Taliban morons are running the country now. :(
A fellow died one day and found himself waiting in the long line of judgment. As he stood there he noticed that some souls were allowed to march right through the pearly gates into Heaven. Others were led over to Satan who threw them into the burning pit. But every so often, instead of hurling a poor soul into the fire, Satan would toss a soul off to one side into a small pile.
After watching Satan do this several times, the fellow's curiosity got the best of him. So he strolled over and asked, "Excuse me, Prince of Darkness," he said. "I'm waiting in line for judgment, but I couldn't help wondering, why are you tossing those people aside instead of flinging them into the Fires of Hell with the others?"
"Ah, those . . ." Satan said with a groan. "They're all from upstate New York. They're still too cold and wet to burn."
I miss it too. I last saw it on Nick Jr a few years ago. It was my favorite show years ago.
The only Thomas episode that ever scared my kids was the one where James was bitten by the bees. Good grief. I can only imagine what this guy thought of Bambi and some of the other Disney films.
Just one question: is it the crashes Thomas gets into (and comes out of, I may add) that's scaring kids, or is it the reports of the real train wrecks and other transit problems in England which kids may inevitably associate with the trouble Thomas is getting into?
Okay, yesterday, during midday, the 5 was terminating at 149th. Today, it was going all the way thru. The TA never knows about these G/Os. What will happen this weekend? How can you predict this G/O?
Well, I guess you could start Here......
Interesting, you can print realistic service diversion signs right at your own desk if your station doesn't have the right ones....LOL.
I will predict that the #5 train will be running from Dyre to Bowling Green this weekend.
The MTA website is useless. For example, they say express service on the 5 Bronx Thru doesn't resume until next week. It's running express now. The G/Os I'm talking about happen on the weekdays, and no one, even Kakikow, or whatever his name is, seems to know about them.
OK ... OK ... OK ... Unca Selkirk gives away the MTA's DEEPEST, DARKEST SECRET ... behold! Through the miracle of a purloined R143 computer circuit board and this little chromium switch, I shall connect Subtalk DIRECTLY to the electronic brain at MTA HQ which not only handles every decision for GO's, but also Human Relations and signalling operations - yes, the actual MASTER TOWER! At your fingertips!
Gather your questions and click here to ask the MTA
So thats how decisions are really made in the Grand Central tower! I always wanted to know why they hold me even if its past my scheduled leaveing time.
Now ya know. Works even with sick customers in smoke conditions, and the batteries never need charging. :)
Thanks Kev. Now I'll never be able to accomplish anything again. Go to the 'Links' page - it's some of the most fun I've seen in a long time.
Hey, if you can't have some fun, no sense waking up. :)
Tried the link, nothing.
PING'd it, got the IP of 66.216.32.1, so there's something outh there to talk to, but......
Netscrape couldn't get there, Bill's Browser delivered a MSN search link which had nothing like an Internet Magic 8 Ball.
Just checked, it's still there. The 8 ball itself is a shockwave flash file, but both browsers come with a flash player. Dunno why you can't get there, but the problem's on "your" end ... and made sure it was really there and not a caching ...
If your provide can't provide it, be happy to email you the page and the SWF so you can see it ...
Not a caching - my ISP doesn't, and I clean out everything after every session. Netscape's cookie file is edited by Cleansweeps's cookie cleaner - fools the "You can't edit this" to think the cookies.txt file hasn't been touched. Bill's Browser - don't keep anything in the Temporary Internet folder - ever. Funny, even it you dump all the stuff in the folder by explorer.exe and then look at the TEF and it's subfolders in another (better) file manager, you'll find duplicate copies in the subfolders. They go away then. You can even edit the .dat file in Windoze/Cookies. Make it a zero byte file and windoze and IE will happily rebuild it for you - no strange error message, either.
Apparently, a Netscape upgrade a while ago to 4.78 and a Billyware "upgrade" to IE dumped the proper plug-ins. Fixed, and the Internet Magic 8 Ball works just peachy.
It didn't appear to be a SWF file when I just looked at it, so if it's a SWF, send it right along. Friends are sending me more SWF's, so they got their own folder on one of by sub-drives. Fun while you're bored.
That was due to an emergency GO. Track Y1(s/b track)was being worked on somewhere between Dyre and 180. So 5 trains were running split service for the afternoon.
While going through my stuff I found the "Schematic Track Diagram Book of the Rapid Transit Routes of MTA New York City Transit" given to me (or, rather the class) when I became a C/R. Funny we didn't get it in Towers. Anyway, found some stuff you may or may not know.
1. To answer the previously posted question about 111St/Jamaica, there is not only a relay room at 111St, there are also RRs at 121St and one at Sutphin/Archer.
2. In the days of the BMT, all lines considered Manhattan North, and on the Broadway and Myrtle Ave lines they kept the track numbers, so J1/M1 are Northbound and J2/M2 are Southbound, opposite the usual.
3. Chambers street on the A actually has 2 towers, Chambers St Tower at the N/E S/B plat and Hudson Terminal in the WTC Dispatcher's office.
4. The F line between Carroll St and Ditmas Ave is referred to as the Prospect Park line.
5. The IND has (or had) towers and RRs up the wazoo, in fact at every 2nd or 3rd station.
6. A tower is not an "interlocking" unless the relay room is on the premises, even if the switches are present in the tower area.
1. To answer the previously posted question about 111St/Jamaica, there is not only a relay room at 111St, there are also RRs at 121St and one at Sutphin/Archer.
Probably contained in the two closed off mezzanines.
The schematic doesn't specify exact location. Also, it states that 111st is controlled by ENY Master, and 121 can be controlled by either ENY or Parsons Tower.
Why connect 111th to ENY, when Parsons is closer?
Well, unfortunately I can't give you an definitive answer on that, but here my guess is that until the Archer Avenue Extension was complete, the entire J line "South" of Essex St was controlled by ENY. When they finished Parsons, they left it as it was. That doesn't explain why 121 can be controlled from both however.
That doesn't explain why 121 can be controlled from both however.
Probably because that switch didn't exist until 16 years ago.
Did ENY control the switches at Queens Blvd, or were they independent, being just a "temporary" setup?
Sorry bro, my schematics are current I can't answer that one. But I'd say they were as permanent as the station.
Switches being so expensive to purchase and integrated into the system though, I wouldn't say any switch is "temporary."
They never issued me a route guide in C/R school car.
Not a route guide, its a schematic of the tracks in the system. Like the track maps on this site, but with some more detail.
I'm thinking it was accidental because it doesn't make sense they'd give it to C/Rs and not to TW/Os.
I got one when I became a C/R, but not when I moved to T/O. TW/Os, on the other hand, have a schematic on the model board.
Yes we do have the schematic, but the booklet would be more valuable to a TW/O (particularly extra), we could use it to get familiar with the track areas. The TA could say we got them as C/R's, but mine, even though I was promoted just after one year as a C/R, is out of date. H1 and H2 on the Manny B. are listed as out of service, no 63rd Street Connection, Queens Plaza controls the switches north of Queens Paza (not Queensboro Master). Not that I'd "study" it, but being assigned to a tower, on the way in to work, I'd have something a little better than my hand drawn diagrams.
They never gave me a track map but classes ahead of me did.
Classes ahead of you gave you a track map? They had extras? 8-)
I ment behind me. I not thinking right today because I found out my partner had a 12-9 yesterday.
Here's some more:
- Metropolitan Ave is controlled from both Fresh Pond Yard and ENY.
- All switches at Fresh Pond Yard are hand operated, but has a pushbutton machine just for the 2 switches at Metropolitan Avenue.
- No power on all tracks and all switches in Linden Yard are hand thrown, including lead to LIRR.
- Rockaway Parkway and Bergen Street are "NYCTA-built" machines because the TA built them from spare parts.
- Beverly Road - Brighton, while properly spelled in the stations, is misspelled in the schematics (seems we can't be consistent on this one).
- 36 Street Yard and 38 Street Yard are 2 separate yards, but at the same geographical location.
- Schematics list Liberty Jct to Aqueduct and the Brighton Line after Church as embankments, not Open Cuts.
Yeah that's a neat little book. I hear it'll get an update next year (what with all the re-building at Stillwell and Canarsie and new signalling going up at both locations among other things).
What is the paramount reason why these two R-series subway cars have vastly the same carbody design? Are there any other subway cars (in two different R-#'ing) that have this similar characteristic?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Hey Guess what????.......... There's information right here on this website, all you had to do is go right here. You should be able to view the cars there and check it out for yourself.
LOL, (Im not trying be a smart @$$, hmmmmmmm...)
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
You are forgetting the biggest twins from the system - the R27 and R30's.
True! The Redbirds are seriously identical!
not many R27s lived to be redbirds.
When were the last R-27's (not R30's) retired?
IIRC, 1993
Peace,
ANDEE
thats the 30s... The last R27s were retired 1989-1990
1989.
Weren't they covered in graffiti?
Some were painted red and cleaned up cosmetically (not GOed).
I agree. The R-44 & 46 were nearly identical, but the trained eye could tell them apart. However, with those redbird twins (and others like R-12/R-14, R-21/R-22) are truly identical. Other than the fleet number I could not tell these real twins apart.
Wayne
How can you tell them apart?
Well inside the armrest (located below the window) is slightly different. On the R44 the door to the crew's cab is smaller and is hinged. On the R46 this door is the same width of the storm door and it's a sliding door. The forward/rearward facing seat on the R44 had a post (or pedestal) supporting it and the R46 doesn't. Then there's the door chimes that sound different.
Wayne
The sky-blue tinted carbon steel stripe on R44's differentiate them from the 100% stainless steel R46's.
speaking in basic carbody design(similar cars)
1. The R15,16,17,21,22,26,27,28,29,30,30A,33WF,33ML,36WF,36ML
2. The 12, 14,
3. The R62,R40M,R42
4. The R32, R38
5. IRT Gibbs, Hedley, Flivver, Steinway, and Standard LowVs
6. BMT B, Sirt(bit of a strech)
7. The R43,R44,R46,R68,R68A,M1(Etc)
8. The R1-9
9. The R110A,R142
10. The R110B,R143
R43????? and the R62 is no where similar to the R40M and R42.
look at them from the front, theyre identical.
R43 is AKA R44SIR
R-43 is diesel-electric locomotives 62, 63, & 64. R-44 SIR is R-44, hence the similarity.
add R10 to #2
Path K cars to #1
Poll question:
Do any of you think that the IRT WF Steinways are like a morph from the IRT LowV to the R12?
About the only similarity is the clerestory roof, which isn't an uncommon feature on railcars. The World's Fair cars could have been the inspiration to include the clerestory in the R-12 (and R-10, 11, and 14) design, though.
Those are not clerestory roof lines, that is known as an Ogee roof.
The Steinway WF Lo-V had a modified Ogee, a little shallower than those used on the R10-12-14. I believe the original Ogee roof car was the 1936-model BMT MS; Steinway WF Lo-V had the distinction of the first IRT stock to have bulkhead signs.
Clerestory roof: BMT Standard, D Type, SIRT (E type), R-1/4/6/7/9
Railroad roof: MUDC, Composite, Gibbs, Flivver, all flavors of Lo-V except WF, BU Gate car, C Type, Q type.
Ogee roof: MS, Steinway Lo-V, R-10,12,14
wayne
I'd have to disagree with your use of the term "clerestory roof".
A clerestory, or clear-story, is any roof design where there are
two distinct roof levels and the upper roof features a row of
smaller clerestory windows.
All of the cars prior to the R-15 had a clerestory roof.
R1-9 cars, ABs and D types fell under the broad "deck roof"
category. The deck roof is one in which the upper roof ends
in a sudden transition without any curve. There were many
variations. A true deck roof, in my opinion, stops short of
the end of the car and has a little overhang on the upper deck.
RT examples of this would be the 1907 IRT "Deckroof" Hi-V cars
and the SIRT cars. There are varying opinions as to what constitutes
a true vs a modified deckroof. The important thing is curvature:
Where the vertical riser of the upper roof meets the surface of
the lower roof, it does so at or close to a right-angle, with
no curved transition. Likewise, at the longititudinal end of the
deck roof section, it goes straight down.
A "railroad" roof has a smooth curved transition from the upper
roof to the lower roof at the ends of the car. The curvature is
in two planes.
The "Ogeee" roof is a further modification of the deck roof. It
has an abrupt transition at the longitudinal end, but the transverse
transition from lower to upper roof is smooth and features a
reverse curve.
R-15 and up cars are "arch roof" with no clerestory. However,
if you look beneath the turtleback roof a redbird, an R12/14
lurks beneath! There is a hidden Ogee roofline.
"What is the paramount reason why these two R-series subway cars have vastly the same carbody design?"
I guess when the R-44/46's were being built, it would be a new off the shelf design, since design changes do cost the TA more.
No one has seen what the R-160 will look like, but it is speculated to look identical to the R-143. If the R-143 design is successful, then why redesign R-160 costing more in the long run.
In the light rail world, look at the Duwag U-2, that's an off the shelf design used in San Diego and Western Canada. Off the shelf design ? How about the PCC ? (Off the shelf design with some changes).
Bill "Newkirk"
we all know the 44/46 cars were built for the SAS.they were suppose to operate on that line exclusivly,and its branches.So it would make sense to have simular cars operating with each other. Also ,there was the idea that the cars would be able to M.U. with each other....but as we know ,they dont. the plans were to replace rail cars every year after the 46 order,to replace all the pre-war cars,post war cars up to the R27/30, but as we see that didnt quite pan out.When the SAS went kaput,the 44/46 was sent to the Queens Division to replace the oldest cars there,and most of the 60 ft cars[R38/40S/40M/42 and 16].
My guess: When the TA needed additional cars (the R44s came first) St. Louis Car was out of business. So when Pullman Standard bid for the order, it offered to build more of what the TA already had (basically, with some differences). The Rockwell trucks, though, were a mistake (subsequently rectified).
I'd assume that the TA would want as many parts to be interchangeable as possible for ease of maintenance. Look at the BMT Standards, built by two companies, and the R-6 contract alone was split among three.
I agree with you.
That can't be it. When the R-46 order was put out for bid in 1972, St. Louis Car was very much a going concern (it was constructing the R-44s at the time). In fact, SLC bid on the R-46 order but didn't get it. The failure to get the R-46 order may have been the death knell for SLC -- story goes, SLC lowballed the R-44 contract in order to put it in a better position to get the R-46 contract, which it didn't get.
David
Actually the MTA forbid St. Louis from bidding on the R-46. The reason behind this being that the MTA had so many problems with the R-44. If you ask me the MTA was to blame, not St. Louis, and Pullman. The MTA designed the cars, but failed to design a car appropiate for the subway. The R-44 and R-46 were both high speed cars designed for a line that did not exist. The lightweight trucks were first proposed for the R-44. The MTA declined using them on the R-44 because they could not withstand the conditions present in the NYC Subway. The fact that they decided to use the lightweight trucks on the R-46 just a couple of years later is riciculous. Why did they feel that it would work on the 46 and not the 44. Nothing had changed in the system that would allow the lightweight trucks to perform without any problems between the delivery of the R-44 and the R-46. You can also blame the US government which mandated that new cars have "State Of The Art Technology" in order to recieve federal funding. What a surprise being that the "State Of The Art Cars" were bacically R-44's, hell they were even built by St. Louis Car. If the R-44 order had not been such a nightmare, the R-46 would have probably gone to St. Louis Car. It's too bad the R-46 turned out to be just as big a nightmare, if not bigger. To me it looks like those cars were plauged more by poor design and engineering, rather than poor craftmanship. Both coach builders built the blueprints that were given to them from the MTA. It is not their fault that whoever designed them thought that we would have a BART line in Manhattan cruising at 80 MPH. As far as the lightweight trucks on the R-46, probably would have been fine somewhere other than the NYC Subway. Once again I ask why they were decided against on the R-44, and given the green light on the R-46. Lets also take into account all the other brilliant decisions made by the MTA in the 70's.
Is that information verified? At the time the R-46 bids were being solicited (1972; contract with Pullman was announced in September), St. Louis was just beginning to deliver the R-44s. Problems surfaced immediately, but it seems unlikely to me that they would have been severe enough (or considered long-term enough) that St. Louis would have been banned from bidding on the R-46 order.
David
It is something I read about on this site. It makes sense though.
Couldn't the same situation be applied to Bombardier and the R142's should the MTA repeated itself?
I heard a while back on SubTalk, that an experimental signal light, possibly LED, was being tested at Jay St.-Boro Hall. Well on Sunday, I rode an R-38 (A) from Lefferts Bl., railfan window all the way, and when entering Jay St. on A-4 track, I saw the signal in question. The light looked brighter in intensity, but was blue and not green in color!
No, that wasn't a blue compact fluorescent light, seen in tunnels for emergency phone, although the color was the same. In fact there was two blue lights, blue over blue, much like a green over green.
Has anyone seen this wierd signal and what do you make of it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It's still considered green, but there is _much_more_ blue tint to the LED arrays than in the traditional "Railroad Green" we are used to seeing.
That's strange because the green LEDs used in NYC traffic lights are very green. Why the difference?
That home signal may be white LED's placed behind the blue-green filter. I've always wanted to see inside that to make sure that is what it is. If you hold the green filter up to daylight or even flourescent light, it is rank blue(turquoise). (If you see one in daylight while off, it also appears blue. This was true of the traffic signal green lens as well) So the same would happen with white LED's, which more closely match daylight. The yellowish of incandescent bulbs make it look green. Other green signals use green LED's. Shone through the green filter, makes it a very rich green. The new traffic signals are green LED's encased in a green plastic module. The bluish signals at Jay could also be a lower wavelength (490's) blue-green LED.
Of course, they also have the deep blue LED bulbs (instead of the compact flouresents) for the wayside telephone/extinguisher around there as well.
I always considered it teal rather than blue, myself
--Z--
Talk about luck, my first day hanging out at home for spring break and it gets to be 1 o'clock with my TV viewing options limited to daytime soaps and COPS on FOX, I flipped on over to PBS for another exciting episode of Mr. Rogers and boy was I surprised when I saw him pick up "troley" for a trip to see real trollies.
Anyway, I am sure that most of you have seen this one and they probably have the episode on file at Branford or any other trolley museum in good standing, but this was the first time I had seen the episode in a number of years and I was facinated to see how the museum guy sometimes forgot to simplify down the material. Like w/in the first 5 seconds he had correctly the make and model of "trolley" and even used the word "truck" at one point.
It was a shame that the musuem guy pointed out a "more modern" car, but did not refer to it as a PCC. I also noticed some SEPTA marked equipment on the property, they looked to be work cars.
Your Spring Break sounds much more exicting than mine when I went to New Orleans last week for Mardi Gras and had plenty of tig 'ol bitties in my face.
I hope you're not planning on telling anyone at school this :-)
pics?
:)
I have some pics myself from last years Mardi Gras, but I guess not right for SubTalk! Hmmm, the Saint Charles Trolley Tracks are in the backround of some.......nahh, better not......
LOL, Chris. Feel free to send some "trolley" pics to my inbox...nickmeister@hotmail.com -Nick
Ooohhhhh Yeeeaaahhhh. I was thinking about write a short trip report about a trolley lines I observed (but did not ride), once I actually remember everthing I did. Maybe I'll throw in a couple of edited bonuses :-)
You mean they do lap dancing on the St. Charles streetcar? =:-o
So what museum did he go to? I don't know where Mr Rogers was produced but a lot of PBS stuff comes from WGBH Boston. So maybe Seashore?
Someone previously said it was once near Pittsburgh (Mr. R was produced locally by the PBH PBS station) and from what I saw the musuem looked rather mom and pop.
The Rockhill Trolley museum is "relativly" close to Pittsburgh. Maybe he went there.
The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington is much closer to Pittsburgh than Rockhill is.
Bob,
Even though I'm not a member of the PTM, but still tank yaw for the
link to another of the brethren trolley museums.
8-) Sparky
Thank Yaw for the link to "Railways to Yesterday". Besides Branford,
I'm a member of RTY & Seashore. You may find this Naw Yawker in them
hills of Pennsylvania this summer, if he qualifies. And then across the street, the East Broad Top, narrow-gauge steam. >GG<
8-) Sparky
RTY claims to have Scranton trolley car #505. Is this true? I knew about the sweeper, but not about this car. I thought the only Scranton car left was the one they just found inside a bar near Moscow, PA, two years ago.
Brian,
At RTY, I'm really a newbee, with reference to the collection. I just peaked and it shows Scranton #505 on the roster. They do have a comprehensive guide to the collection with status and condition issued to the members, but it's not at this location.
I'm going to forward your question to my contact at RTY for enlightment. BTW my interest at RTY are the "Johnstown" cars 311 & 355. Must be some rub off having run Branford's 356 & 357.
I wish I could have been more helpful.
8-) ~ Sparky
Sparky -
Here's my collection of Johnstown Traction #311 photos:
2001
2001
2001
2002
2002
Branford's #357 is in a little better shape since she recently came out of the shop, i.e. she the pride of fleet until 850 de-thrones her.
Thurston,
Johnstown #311, is one of the first car acquisitions by "Railways To
Yesterday" in 1961. Basically it is their equivalant to our Montreal
#2001. "It takes a licking & keeps on ticking".
Also your bashing of its condition was unwarranted, as you are not
a member of that "Museum". Did you ever see me post negatively of
the collection at CTM, of which you are a member and I am not.
Please don't cast rhetoric without inside data to substantiate it.
And for the record, "Railways To Yesterday", for it smaller size
membership & collection accomplishes much. Much less oratory and
much more achievement then the larger 3 New England Trolley Museums.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, put these dates on your calendar, October 12 & 13.
Fall Spectacular ~ Trolleys and trains everywhere! Ride trolleys built from 1904 up to 1947. See special trolleys, like the snowsweepers, trolley plow, and freight motors in operation. Special steam trains and gas-electric runs on the East Broad Top RR also. Many opportunities to see and ride trolleys and trains not usually operated.
Each year the Rockhill Trolley Museum and East Broad Top RR hold the joint Fall Spectacular weekend. RTM operates as many trolleys as possible, including special equipment, and the EBT's M-1 gas-electric car. EBT normally operates both passenger and mixed trains with a combination of steam and diesel power.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's time that members of the various trolley museums, starts acting matured and realize, we are all devoting our time, efforts & $$$ with one goal, to preserve the final vestiges of Electric Traction.
8-) Sparky
PS-RTY's JTC #355 will be leaving the property for rebuilding this
year and may return looking neater then its brethern. >GG<
Johnstown #311 vs 357 ...
"... Also your bashing of its condition was unwarranted, as you are not a member of that "Museum". Did you ever see me post negatively of
the collection at CTM, of which you are a member and I am not.
Please don't cast rhetoric without inside data to substantiate it ..."
OK, sorry about that ... didn't realy mean it like you apparently thought. From the photos it would seem to needs some TLC vs. 357 which is in mint condition.
One of the problems with all museums is limited staff and money, so they tend to restore a car & run it until they ware it out. Meanwhile they are restoring another to replace it. If they're a little better then most they restore then quicker then they ware out. This system is still better then the "stuff & mount them" theory. I'm a believer in using them, at least almost, as they were intended (I know some who will almost restore a car to prevent it's use). We just have to be more careful then the original operators not to break anything, and Heaven forbit they meet on the line unexpectedly :-( This tends to give the Curator a few extra grey hairs.
It's interesting that this "subway" site has provided me with a lot of detail about museums & trolley cars across the US.
Well,
The Johnstown 350 series are unique to say the least for a small city
in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Data obtained from Preserved
North American Electric Cars compiled by Franks Hicks [IRM] & Jeff
Hakner [BERA].
350 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car)stored operable at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum(Washington, Pennsylvania) 1959-present. Originally 4'8.5" gauge.
[States original gauge. I was told there in dual trackage in the
car house where it is stored and it operates within its confines
and has not been regauged. Ray Crapo or someone at PTM please chime in.]
351 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar(safety car) stored inoperable at San Francisco Municipal Railway(San Francisco, California) 1993-present. Stored outdoors but repainted.
352 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car) operated often at National Capital Trolley Museum(Wheaton, Maryland) 1961-present.
355 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car)undergoing restoration at Rockhill Trolley Museum(Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania) ?-present.
356 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car) undergoing restoration at Branford Electric Railway Association(East Haven, Connecticut) ?-present.
357 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company operated streetcar (safety car) operated often Branford Electric Railway Association(East Haven, Connecticut) 1959-present.
358 Johnstown Traction 1925 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car) operated occasionally at Trolley Museum of New York(Kingston, New York) 1991-present / 1st preserved by Stone Mountain 1960-1991 / Converted to operation using gasoline engine.
362 Johnstown Traction 1926 St. Louis Car Company streetcar (safety car) stored inoperable / 1st preserved by Rockhill Trolley Museum ?-? / Fox River Trolley Museum(South Elgin, Illinois) ?-present
In a few years, it will be interesting to visit 4 Trolley Museums in
the East and compare the "quality" of restoration on JTC 1925 St. Louis steel safety cars.
352 - NatCap; 355 - RTY; 357 - BERA; 358 - TMNY.
8-) Sparky
[States original gauge. I was told there in dual trackage in the car house where it is stored and it operates within its confines and has not been regauged. Ray Crapo or someone at PTM please chime in.]
I can confirm that from my visit last summer... there is dual gauge track on that side of the barn.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bob,
Thanks for the trip with JTC #311. Looking forward to putting some
time at the handles of it this summer. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Bob,
Really did dig the 2001 shot of JTC #311 on the last run. It was
my first trip on operating [piloted] on that railway. You'll note
the lack of riders compared to 2002. Geez, if only you shot the
other end of the car with the "crew". >GG<
8-) Sparky
Sparky -
Small world!! I went into my file of photos to see whether I had another night photo of JCT 311 from the passing #1875, but I don't. 1875 wasn't too crowded, either.
Bob,
It was a cold evening in October, 2001 and the last run was with 3 cars, with JTC #311 in the middle between 1875 and York Railways #163, the Brill curve sided car. While loading at Meadows Street, we directed passengers to either 1875 or 163, but would have taken riders on 311, if need be. Then, 311 would have made an additional "shameless joy riding" trip to Black Log Narrows for this "guest operator". >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Mr. Rogers was at Arden.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arden is here. :)
I haven't seen that Mr. Rogers episode, but I know he visited PTM where this picture was taken.
Evan, Thanks for the link ... brought back memories of when I sat with my kids while watching his show.
Ahh I've been there. I'll have to scan some of the pictures.
BERA's #34 from Lynchburg is a 9 bench open trolley. It's always on public display and many kids have said "oh look Trolley Trolley !"
The East River hasn't made an appearance here in a while.
Uh oh, Pig is smoking it again.....
Today's CHINATOWN Specialties... Manhattan-Canal Street style Smoked BQQ Roast American Pig with a touch of garlic and Honey.
With White Rice or Pork Fried Rice.
Yummy, but I'll settle for some lo mein ;)
You should try the chow mein from big wong or wing wong restaurant on Mott Street. They are far more yummy yum yum.
But Water Pipes are all the rage...
That 63rd St tunnel would have made a hell of a bong. :)
Quick, get your hits on the LIRR lower level before the MTA tries to take it over!
Pffffffffffft! (and you thought that was an air compressor.) :)
LMAO!
If we got a big enough source of compressed air pumped it into the tube and vent the other end into the NYCTA tunnel, we could get every Broadway, Queens Blvd, and 6th ave subway rider high!
Imagine being at Roosevelt Island!
Maybe not ... it'd put Straphangers outta business if all the Queens IND/BMT riders were standing on the platforms with a stupid smile on their faces even if the train was an hour or more late. Then again, it could work wonders for the MTA "customer satisfaction program." :)
LMAO!!!!
it'd put Straphangers outta business if all the Queens IND/BMT riders were standing on the platforms with a stupid smile on their faces even if the train was an hour or more late.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! The TA had an ingenious way to make service cuts on the Queens IND, everyone would be happy just standing on the platform (they may even think they are already at their destination) - Alright, it's too early in the morning for this.
Q: What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?
A:The drunk will drive through a stop sign, while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.
ROTFLMAO.
Are you waiting for a particular shade of green?
Peace,
ANDEE
If I get a maize over paisley, I'm whipping this puppy directly into parallel. :)
Listen to those gears sing out...
You mean, "listen to the breakers trip." :)
Well, if you were to turn the heat on, I could see that happening.:)
Nah, you'd spot a mushroom cloud hanging over the powerhouse and one EXTREMELY agitated Unca Jeff. :)
The East River hasn't made an appearance here in a while.
That's an interesting observation. I have no idea what point it's supposed to make, but it's interesting nevertheless.
Tear it down ... :)
Yeah, along with that darn Astoria El!
The east river is too big for my pipe.
Not to mention all its water would put out the fire...given it's levels of flammable pollutants are low enough. : )
Mark
I'd figure the "water" from the East River would actually ignite the blaze...
The East River hasn't made an appearance here in a while.
Its been frozen - It will be back after the spring thaw ;-)
That's because it's been torn down / filled in with the Astoria El...
Expanding TransitChek is one good answer to a fare hike (it's a good idea anytime). And it saves on payroll taxes.
The question is, how do you persuade more employers to offer it? See story
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/66061p-61539c.html
I'm hopefully joining the TransitCheck program as of the beginning of Q2 2003. I can't wait!
From the Daily News:
>>> Just 9,000 employers offer TransitChek in the region - even though companies can save on payroll taxes by offering the program. <<<
I do not fully understand this. Are TransitChek deductions exempt from Social Security taxes? How does the program work? Is it a federal plan? I have not heard of it being offered here.
Tom
Your question about SS taxes is a good one. I will try to look it up.
Shame on LA MTA (RTD) if they are not promoting it.
Transitchek is a program designed to assist employers in saving on payroll taxes and employees who are enrolled in the program, a pre-tax benefit.
The employee enrolled in Transitchek, gets it one on two ways:
1. Standard Transitchek, the employee receives a check each month to use to redeem for any public transportation provider that accepts transitchek by the methods allowed (in NYCT's case, it's at the station agent for purchase of Metrocards.). This amount is already deducted from his paycheck earlier, BUT the amount will not be shown in the employers W-2 form. So, if an employer earns $50,000, and receives $100 a month in Transitcheck, the W-2 form will reflect $48,800 in the Wages section. It's like an IRA deduction, so the employee saves money in the long run.
2. Premium Transitcheck, same as above, but the employee receives a special Unlimited ride Metrocard that is automatically refilled each month, with payroll deductions automatically taken out. The person with this card does not have to stand in line, has the card for the whole year, but it can only be used on NYCT local buses and subways, not on express buses and commuter railroads. City employees have this important benefit.
Thanks for posting that.
This is a very cool program for the employee. And since the W2 lists a lower total gross income, it means that (subject to the cap) the employer saves on matching Social Security taxes.
Employers save on FICA taxes (social security and Medicare taxes). Each employer must pay 7.5% FICA tax on all employees gross income. The reason many employers like to hire employees off the books is to save the 7.5% tax on wages.
When an employees chooses to be apart of the Transitchek program, the amount the employee chooses to deduct from his paycheck is a reduction of his/her gross income thus the employer pays the 7.5% FICA tax on a lower dollar figure thus the savings
The downsize to employers is that the additional administrative costs of the transitchek program has caused many employers to not participate. Many employers have decided that the cost savings are not worth the headache of administering the program. This is especially true at smaller employers.
Transit Center, the plan administer has been working to reduce the additional overhead of running the program. My old employer declined to be a part of transitchek. NYC government employees just got access to transitcheck about 2 years ago. It is a shame it is not offered by more employers.
The bennifit to the employee is even greater.
It should be pointed out that the Transit Check program is an administrative nightmare which is why many employers still will not carry it.
The Transit Checks are bearer instruments so anyone can use them. If they get lost or stolen the employee is out of luck.
My employer (a big bank) did something different. Instead of a transit check, each month an amount (up to $100 - I decide the amount) is deducted from my pay on a pre-tax basis. It is deposited in a "Spending Account" which is admisitered by an outside company. In order to get reimbursed I have to submit a form to that company. It is a more efficient way (in my opinion) to handle the program.
The Transit Checks are bearer instruments so anyone can use them. If they get lost or stolen the employee is out of luck.
I never received my February LIRR Mail & Ride ticket. While I had to pay out of pocket for a monthly card, I submitted a reimbursement statement and will get the money back with my next paycheck.
Of course, a lost card is a different matter; no reimbursement unless I claimed it never arrived.
On the same vain, In the case of all new york area employee's the physical check should no longer be used. If a rider chooses to not use mail and ride or premium metrocard, they should be issued an ATM like debit card protected by a pin. Each months monies set aside for tranist would be added to this account
All NY areas transit operators accept debit cards for the purchace of transit fare. It is an eligant way to simplify the Transitchek program.
Most employers use third party payroll processors such as ADP. Transit center should look to work with these third party entities to intergrate transitchek features into thier product. The elinination of the headaches of dealing with a physical check would make running the transitchek program no more difficult then offering direct deposit.
Agreed.
The federal govt pays its employees through direct deposit.
PATH takes debit cards?
What about NY Waterway? Bee Line? Etc.
I beileve NY Waterway does.
Can not speak for Bee Line.
There was an article last week that PATH was moving over to METROCARD platform in the near future. I belive path's vending machines take credit cards. NJ transit does
SEPTA's sales offices accept credit cards and debit cards for both subway and commuter rail purchases.
I always used credit cards when I have the option. Every time I've bought PATH QuickCards, I haven't had the option. If the option exists, either it's new (post-Thanksgiving 2002) or it's only available at secret locations.
Once PATH moves to MetroCards, they can be purchased at NYCT MVM's, of course.
The savings for the employer is 7.65% (Social Security plus Medicare employer payroll taxes). As you mentioned, though, the program is considered something of a nuisance to administer. If employees set aside $1,000 per year, the savings to the employer is $76.50 per employer. If it's that much of a nuisance, then there's some minimum number of participating employees before the program even breaks even.
My former employer also chose an outside company to administer the transit spending account -- there are a number of firms can easily do this, since they already do exactly the same thing for Medical Savings Accounts.
CG
It's unfortunate that TransitChek isn't better designed.
The plan you're on is similar to Flexible Medical Spending Accounts.
I am going to be in San Francisco in late June on a trip with my family and am planning to sneak away for a few hours in the morning to do some rail-fanning on BART.
I will be originating my trips from the Embarcadero BART Station since it is closest to my Hotel at Fisherman's Wharf.
I was wondering what time the Muni-metro F historic street-car begines operating on a Sunday morning?? Also, is there anywhere good to grab a quick bite to eat that's open around 9.a.m. at the Colma (Hopefully Milbrae/Burlingame if the extension ever opens) BART station??
I will be riding from Embarcadero to the Southern Terminal first, hopefully the airport extension will open and I will get to ride past COlma!! Then from there to Dublin/Pleasanton and back to Embarcadero.
I might also be able to ride some-more on the others lines if time allows but that is iffy.
Any info. anybody has about riding BART for an out-of-towner is helpful, specifically anything interesting to notice on the segments I will be riding.
The only thing I noticed so far that is a downfall is that I want to exit the system at the terminal stations to get some pictures from outside the stations and strech my legs if will have to pay a fare for exiting and entering again. But I guess I don't mind giving BART around $11.00 for a morning of rail-fanning.
Find out if BART offers day passes.
NOT!
Here's an idea for good eats around the Colma Station... You'll have to walk about a 1/2 mile each way, but check out the IN N OUT Burger at Sullivan and Washington in Daly City... SamTrans might even run by there... No trip to California is complete without a stop at IN N OUT! If you walk it, head west from the Colma Station, then North on Junipero Serra Blvd., then west on the Washington overpass above I-280... Otherwise there is nothing, but cemeteries, next to the Colma Station... It's pretty much the spoke in a big park and ride/SamTrans hub...
The F Line starts running around 6:00am on Sundays... There is also an IN N OUT at the Wharf... For eats along BART in the City, I'd suggest getting off at 16th Street (during daylight) and walking one block west from Mission to Valencia... There are several outstanding burrito and taco places... La Cumbre and El Toro are the top dogs...
Caution!!!!
In-N-Out Burgers USED to be the greatest. Ever since their corporate jet crashed about 500' from my residence in 12/94 (taking the lives of four of five top executives of In-N-Out), they've been sliding downhill now that the wife of the founder has been running the company. The burgers are now greasy, they seem a lot thinner than they used to, and nowadays they give me heartburn like no jalapeno could ever do!! Their prices haven't gone up much at all, just a nickel here and there -- so they've taken to cheapening the quality. (And now that they seem to be putting in new locations every week -- whereas, in the first 40 years of the company, only 30 locations opened!), they don't seem to take the care in preparing the food like they used to. Burgers used to get delivered picture perfect to the customers. Not quite so nowadays.
I would agree on the In-N-Out Burger, my first trip to one shortly after moving out here was a good one...or stop at the Krispy Kreme. There really isn't anything else around.
Beware of "gaps" in F-Line service on a sunday...with the OT issues going on out here, I am hearing that numerous Sunday runs are not being filled.
As others have pointed out, BART does NOT offer a "Day Pass".
But there IS a way to do the whole system cheaply (and flame me if you wish for posting it...but it works).
Get on at the Embarcadero station. Ride the whole system. Do NOT exit at Embarcadero, but exit one station further into the city at Montgomery. You will only pay the minimum fare then -- as the fare turnstiles "think" you only went from Embarcadero to Montgomery! (My wife and I did this a couple years ago when it reaches into the 90's in San Francisco -- not very pleasant temperatures there -- so we rode BART out to Pittsburg and back just to sit in air conditioning for awhile!)
This also works over in Oakland -- 12th & 19th Streets are close enough you can walk to your original starting point.
Obviously Bart's system does not take time into consideration.
Well, they "claim" to have time restrictions, but my personal experience shows they do NOT.
They used tohave an "Excursion Ticket" which allowed one to board and exit at the same station, ride for up to five hours, and pay $4.00 for that privilege -- that was about ten years ago. I don't kow if that still exists.
Yep, I got one of those during a 1992 visit, I think it cost $3.80 at that time. On subsequent visits, I was hip to the "scam" and did both the 12th/19th St thing in Oakland and I think Montgomery/Powell in SF.
(Powell and Montgomery stations are REALLY close together, you can stand at the east end of the platform at Powell and look down the tunnel and see the Montgomery platform. I daresay the last car of a 10-car East Bay bound BART consist has barely cleared the platform at Powell before the train starts slowing for the Montgomery stop.)
I don't know if this is still the case, but when I first visited San Francisco in the late 80s, it was actually cheaper to ride BART along Market St than MUNI (80 cents for BART vs $1.00 for Muni) I know BART has had several fare increases since then, not sure about Muni.
I think BART minimum is now $1.50 whereas MUNI is still a buck.
>>> I think BART minimum is now $1.50 whereas MUNI is still a buck. <<<
BART minimum fare is $1.10. Muni is $1.00 with a proposed rate increase to $1.25 in September, 2003.
Tom
Speaking of BART, is there any rapid transit system that runs trains as long as or longer than BART's 10-car 75-footers? Compared to New York, BART runs longer trains on some lines and is a lot faster on all lines.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam
>>> Compared to New York, BART runs longer trains on some lines and is a lot faster on all lines. <<<
And runs one person ATO.
Tom
minimum is $1.15 since Jan. Muni is likely to become 1.25 soon,
minimum is $1.15 since Jan. Muni is likely to become 1.25 soon,
When I was there in 1989, there was an "excursion" fare that allowed you to ride anywhere you wanted and exit at the same station for one price. There was a 4 hour time limit I believe.
But then I did what Steve Hoskins did ... that worked even better :)
--Mark
>>> Get on at the Embarcadero station. Ride the whole system. Do NOT exit at Embarcadero, but exit one station further into the city at Montgomery. <<<
That would seem to work. The BART website indicates that there is a machine available to add fare to your ticket if you have not paid enough upon exit, so there is no requirement that you have paid your full fare before entering as there is in true POP systems. Therefore you should be able to travel all over the system on a minimum fare card ($1.15), as long as you have cash or credit card to add to it on exit if you want to, or have to leave the system outside the minimum fare zone.
Tom
This is fine, but the original poster Chicago Brian wanted to leave the system to take photos of the outside of stations.
>>> the original poster Chicago Brian wanted to leave the system to take photos of the outside of stations. <<<
Since he has not been there yet, he does not know which stations he might want to photograph. His best strategy is to purchase the minimum ticket, and then if and when he is at a station where he wants to exit to take pictures, add value to his ticket (it is a plastic debit card) to allow him to exit there.
Tom
BART does not offer a "day pass"; you may purchase an excursion ticket which is valid for approximately 4 hours, the restriction being you must exit at the same station you enter. Although some posters here have said that there is no time restriction on a "normal ticket", that is not exactly true. The tickets are encoded with a "time window" in which time the ticket is suppossed to be used for exit. Under normal operations with no delays, the gates are set to look for this window. However when there are delays, or validation problems from certain stations; the time overide may be set by the agent; allowing the restriction to be bypassed. The 12th/19th St and Embarcadero/Montgomery/Powell/Civic Center trick became widely used by people who tried it in their commute; which caused the use of the overide to be severely restricted. Should you try to use it and get caught, you will be made to buy the full excursion ticket, and may be cited by BART police for fare evasion; most of the station agents and supervisors I work with are diligent about this. If you purchase an excursion ticket, and you want to take pictures outside the station, it never hurts to put a smile on and be nice and ask the station agent if you can take the photos and re enter through the side gate. Just don't be a smart a**!!! Oh yes, Colma Station surrounding area is rather quiet on Sundays - remember there are more people in the cemeteries there than there are alive in Colma!
The San Francisco International Airport Extension will open for regular revenue service at 0800 Sunday, June 22, 2003. Please note that the Pittsburgh/Baypoint line (yellow)will serve Millbrae and WILL NOT serve or stop at San Francisco International Airport. The Dublin/Pleasanton line (blue) will serve San Francisco International Airport and WILL NOT serve or stop at Millbrae. There will be a shuttle train between SFO and Millbrae. The fare to downtown from SFO is I believe $4.80.
Did anyone else here try to use an MEM today in midtown? The machines in a few stations were having screen refresh problems. One even threw me a solid white (lunar white?) screen before asking me a question in a language I didn't understand (I had pushed the Spanish button while the screen was white, I guess).
Some MEM's were working. I eventually bought a card at 96/Broadway. And the MVM's seemed to be doing okay.
You don't know how to use the MVM/MEM in unintelligible (to you) languages yet?
I used to regularly buy Metrocards in Chinese.
Now that it's been well over a year now, since the IRT Flushing Line has been using R62s, I guess the experience is much more different ehh?
Not to me. I've gotten used to them by now. If anything, we need R142's on the line. :) I've read all around that the 7 is going to get new rolling stock of its own. Any truth to that?
You mean the R171s? (just a guess as to the contract number)
There has not been much said on new equipment for the Flushing line.
The Corona yard facility would have to be totally redone (like E180th) to handle newer equipment. So any new orders would have to wait until that happens.
The R62s still have a good number of years left in them. Don't sink them yet.
Good points. I just hope when the reconstruct Corona, the path over the tracks is kept intact for the public! The R62's are not going to be sinked though. They are worth scrapping, rather.
Since the path over the tracks is kindof the easiest way to get from the park to shea stadium, and from the train to the tennis, it pretty much has to remain open. Now if it will remain unobstructed is an entirely different story.
Personally, it's been different for me; I grew up with the R36 WF cars. Don't get me wrong, the R-62A seems to be a fine car, and a score younger than the R-36, but it doesn't seem as familiar and inviting. Then again, the generation that grows up with R-62A's on the line might find the remaining Redbirds and their bouncy ride equally unfamiliar.
The obvious difference for the railfan is that most of the R-62A trains on the Flushing line have full-width cabs at the northbound motorman position, thus taking away the nice view that the Redbirds afforded, particularly on the express run.
Curiously, in terms of the breakdowns I've observed (which may be a poor means of observation), it seems that the R-62A trains break down more often than their older counterparts, which is especially surprising now that I hear that the R-36 cars might be retired just short of their 40th year in service.
As an addendum to my own post, I'll add that we should be seeing R-142A cars on the Flushing line "soon", given that it might be the next line to receive the Canarsie line-CBTC treatment, right? Or can it be done with older equipment just the same?
Not soon.
The Corona yard facility would have to be completely upgraded (like E180th) in order to handle newer equipment. That will take time. They can't order new cars until the line can support them.
I wasn't able to make the trip last fall, but would love to make this one; especially since I'm only 45 minutes west of Branford. If we charter a trolley,about how much should we expect to pitch in? If anyone has info on this trip, it would be appreciated. -Nick
Details can be found HERE ... look for the item marked "Sun Mar 30 2003 - SubTalkers Gathering at Shore Line Trolley Museum" ...
Nick,
I noticed that Selkirk pointed you in the direction of the listing in coming events, for which I thank him. Also due to liability with having numerous "guest operators", you have to be a member of the Museum to participate. Your level of membership determines, if you may get a crack at the handles.
Hopefully, you'll be joining us on the 30th. Please advise.
8-) ~ Sparky
The plan for Sunday March 30th is to Charter a subway car, specifically our Lo-V this time around. But we would be most happy to charter another group a trolley. You would have about six to choose from.
BTW, on March 30th, at no extra cost you get picked up at our depot in a trolley with a free transfer to the Lo-V < grin >
May I suggest you email Sparky (JohnS) directly in this regard ?
Mr t__:^)
^^^"But we would be most happy to charter another group a trolley. You would have about six to choose from."^^^
Afraid it's only a choice of five others that day, the party car 1602
will be hosting a party on March 30 along with our Subway Charter.
So dependent on the weather of the day, we will shuttle you to
"Avenue L" on a Bronx/Manhattan light weight or a Brooklyn convertible.
8-) Sparky
It will be interesting to see who makes the most noise, the birthday kids or the railfans < grin >
Well, you can explain to the Birthday participants the definition of
"Foamer" O.K., grandpa. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Geez ... do you even have to ASK? Didja wonder why I had to use Beulah the Buzzer to let my motorperson du trippe know that they could GO? :)
It was WONDERFUL seeing grown men and wimmens acting like first graders. That was the BEST part of the ride!
Buzzer is broken on the Low-V, we might get to it before the charter.
But it might be a bigger job then the benifit.
I'll bring a #6 cell, some twisted pair and a klaxon. No sweat. Hope you don't think it matters to me. If the motors and pipes are OK, that's all *I* care about. :)
You could always just say moo.:)
Nah, if it don't shoot sparks or draw an arc you can see in sunlight, I ain't interested. Besides, I don't see a membership level for bovines on the list. Lemme see ... 60 feet of zip cord oughta do it. :)
If we can put bingbongs on a Redbird, anything is possible :)
Putting Bingbong on the redbird was simple. Getting her to let go of the handles after rolling 6688 out was the chore. :)
It's going to be intersting on March 30, weather permitting, to see
who'll be at the handles on 6688. Will it be BongBong or Stef??? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
TYPO: should read "BingBong"
8-) ~ Sparky
Maybe we can hang that R46 chime in the LoV this time? :)
Don't push your luck.:) That would be as sacrilegious as putting door chimes on 1689.
Nah, the ULTIMATE sacrilege was that damned WD10 on the inbound. :)
Those WDs take all the fun out of railfanning.:)
They took all the fun out of OPERATING as well - hard to believe that folks couldn't spot the R signs before resuming or slowing down sufficiently to take a diverge. Fortunately the one at Branford was a JOKE. No need for wheel detectors THERE, not as long as Sparky has his cattle prod connected to the overhead to keep folks in line. :)
There will be guests among us (I would like to entertain them as a host) so I will probably give up the controls for at least a part of the day, assuming this car makes it out of the barn. I will be keeping a close eye on the car though...
-Stef
If 6688 makes an appearance on March 30th, it will be a yard move only
for display purposes, same as October 13. March 30 is not it's day
to come out and play, and its still needs a new coat.
8-) ~ Sparky
Nancy can bring it out of the barn, then.:)
I suggest arm wrassling. :)
I didn't hear any reports of any maniacal "MY TRAIN!! MY TRAIN!!! MY TRAIN!!!!" rantings:)
Heh. Nah, of course not. She's very understated, yet maniacal in her own way. :)
And a heckuva nice lady, too.
Yep, I done good. Nothing like a genuine foamette to keep Unca Selkirk smiling. :)
You found yourself one in a million, my friend.
Yeah, Stef is restraining himself. He no say nuting, YET!!! >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Someone's going to have to write a report on all the shenanigans of that upcoming day.
BTW, are there still any plans for a repeat Subtalk Day this fall? I still haven't found out exactly when UConn's Homecoming is taking place this fall, but it's safe to assume it will be on either October 25 or November 1.
A fall gathering depends on attendance and support on 30 March.
Gotta get outta here, School Car: Week 3, today. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Well, I'm sure I will hear about it one way or the other.
Steve,
May I suggest that you try to coor. a possible week-end with fellow SubTalker Simon Billis. Last Fall when he was here for his annual visit from the "other side of the pond" he said he would like to make the next Fall charter, if it comes off.
Mr t__:^)
It all hinges on when UConn's Homecoming is scheduled. I still don't know exactly which weekend that will be. My budget allows for one trip back east per year, and Homecoming is it.
Hi Thurston,
Sparky and I did communicate through e-mail, and I was filled in on the details. Not sure yet if I will be able to become a member soon, but if I do I'll definitely be joining everyone on the 30th. -Nick
Could someone fill me in on how much lighter my wallet will be after this event? (I'm not a member yet.)
$30 to become a member and then 1/X the cost of the charter (where X = number of people who show up)
No, it just the cost of membership for 1st timers, the next time you
pay the contributed cost towards the charter to participate.
You can join at the associate level of $15, but you are not eligible
for handle time, except "Student Associate Members" under 18 years of
age. Any other questions as to cost, email me privately. trolley687@aol.com.
8-) ~ Sparky
The R-142 Train with no number plates pulled through Jackson Av N/B this evening. What happened to the plates!?!?
Also - looks like there's another R-142 set burn testing for the 5 - 6806-10 and 6886-90. I am cpmpletetly lost with these assignments, because I thought these 6800 series cars would go to the 4, at least temporarily. These assignments are hard to keep track off!
-Stef
P.S. I'm back after a week off. No telephone in the house because of defective wiring (damn Verizon), and upgrading to Windows XP. I've spent the last hour going through 7 Days worth of ST messages.
The R-142 Train with no number plates pulled through Jackson Av N/B this evening. What happened to the plates!?!?
Check the fenders of Doug's car :)
Stef, the 142's w/o numberplates are the ones that PBD, Jr. and I saw at Fresh Pond last week. My source says that they came from the factory sans plates so that NYCT can number them as they see fit. However, Dave has come to the conclusion that the cars are part of the 1100 series.
I try to find out more this weekend while I'm at the East.
If it took you only an hour to go through 7 days of SubTalk messages, you read far faster than I do :)
I can relate to no phone - there was a cable outage affecting me 2 weeks ago and I was supposedly reconnected after 48 hours ... except after I was "connected", I had no dialtone. 5 days later, the tech dispatched to my house found that when my line was reconnected, one end was not connected to the right place. And I was told "it's equipment in my house - our line test indicates a "hard short". " Yeah, right.
--Mark
Ain't dealing with Verizon (Formerly known as New York Telephone) is always a trip. When we got a second line here (keeps the primary one clear when browsing) they used the steel core of my old style drop line to carry the ring sides of both lines and used the conductors to carry the tip sides (the two paths of the telephone line are called tip & ring as those wires used to connect to the telephone plug in the old manual offices (to which the operators used streetcars to get to the central offices) one wire to the tip of the plug and the other to a insultated ring just above the tip). This woked fine until one of those cute grey animals with the long furry tail decided to chew on the drop wire. It managed to sever one side - which just happened to be the line to 9573, the second line. No dial tone on modem.
Called Verizon (used to be The Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Company), took them two weeks to come out and replace my drop wire.
When the service was finally restored, it took me 5 hours to go through two weeks of Subtalk.
The London "Metro" newspaper which is given away free at tube stations has a daily page sponsored by the London Underground. Two days running (yesterday and today) this page has been given over to the NYC Subway. Yesterday it was covering the upcoming centenary of the IRT, with the obligatory 1904 picture of City Hall Station. Today it was covering the fare hike (with headline Rocking the Apple cart) - unfortunately the report was not particularly accurate, saying for example that the Bridges and Tunnels hike was 50%, not 50c! It also gave lots of prominence to Straphangers, rather implying that they have some kind of official status as a consumer group - do they? The picture today was an R62 7 train curving into Queensborough Plaza. Shame it wasn't a Redbird.
I wonder, is there any way we can get a copy?
I found the website for the publication but there doesn't seem to be any reference to the article.
http://www.metro.co.uk/metro/home/live/index.html?
New Yorkers might light to look at this site and page - here is the official London Transport 'tube' site giving information about building the first subway in 1902 with some interesting photos - I think they are already on cynsubway.org.
Its worth a look!
http://www.thetube.com/content/metro/03/0303/11/
One of the pictures they used came from this site and I'll bet they didn't even ask for permission
http://www.thetube.com/content/metro/03/0303/11/car_600.jpg
Look at the bottom of the picture, it says:
New York City Subway Resources http://subway.k2nesoft.com
(that is one of this sites older URLs)
That photo is from The New York Subway: Its Construction and Equipment
Editor's Note: Works published in the United States prior to 1920 are (as of this writing) now in the public domain. The markup and layout of this electronic version is Copyright © 1995, 1996 David Pirmann. Permission is granted to download and store copies of this work for personal use and distribution, as long as no profit is made.
I know where it is from, but it is still proper to ask permission before using a photo.
They should have at least given an acknowledgement of where they obtained the photo.
Besides who is to say that publication does not make a profit from something.
The Metro newspaper in London *does* make a profit - it is free to readers but makes its living from the advertising it carries. It comes from the same publisher as the Evening Standard, London's conventional (paid-for) afternoon paper.
However, I very much doubt that the paper breached copyright in publishing photos of the NYC Subway. My guess is that they used MTA copyright pictures and got the MTA's permission. I didn't say that the pictures came from this site, just that the City Hall picture was a familiar one (it's in Brian Cudahy's book, for example).
But one of the pictures did come from NYC Subway Resources. The MTA cannot give permission for that.
Since no one holds the copyright, to those photos, there is no reason to ask permission. They could have went to a library and found the book and scanned the photo if they wanted to. At least they left the caption stuff on there, giving Dave credit that they took it from this site. I know that 1010WINS just took an original photo from here and covered up the caption with their own logo, which definitely is copyright fraud.
They have acknowleded the source of the scan by not cropping out the caption. It's also free publicity for the site; that URL redirects to www.nycsubway.org.
Well they may have downloaded the photo from here but it's not mine to control the rights. After this long it's in the public domain. Even though I'm the one who scanned it in it doesn't mean I all of a sudden have rights over it.
-Dave
Dave,
This is your site and I abide by your judgement.
But you willa dmit that it would have been a proper courtesy for them to at least acknowledge where the picture came from.
But they did, on the bottem, even though it was very small print.
The original photo may be public domain, but your scanning it added some copyrightable material to it. The digital stuff is actually your copyrightable property. They copied your copyrightable stuff.
Are you a lawyer? Even if you're right that's a slippery slope and I'm not sure it would be worth any effort to fight it. Considering that their so-called infringement is not causing me any monetary or other damages I doubt you could even bring a case.
Incidentally, this board needs a link to www.thetube.com - I don't think ithat link is there at the moment, although there are lots of links to other London Underground-related sites.
There's a link to transportforlondon's site from which there is a "Tube" link. I can't keep track of how many times they reorganize and/or add vanity domain names. :) By the time I add thetube.com they'll realize it should be thetube.co.uk I'll have to change it again.
I do sympathize. I think this change cam about with the impending part-privatization; the tube stuff was hived off from the main transportforlondon site. I think it'll stay thetube.com now. British organizations like to get .com if they can and regard .co.uk as second best, though there are exceptions (such as amazon or google) where it usefully distinguishes the UK site from its US parent.
British organizations like to get .com if they can and regard .co.uk as second best
This is partly because of Americans' failure to use their own .us and going for generic things like .com and .net. I can only think of a few .us sites...
www.mta.nyc.ny.us
www.state.ny.us
www.state.nj.us
www.state.pa.us
(and all the other states)
www.nion.us
www.ci.chi.il.us
www.fs.fed.us
Why is that a failure? A .ccTLD should only be used if there is a particular reason why it needs to be identified with a country, such as the aforementioned example of Amazon's UK version.
If a British company had a .com, and decided in needed an American version, it could go the .us route (there is no .co.us).
Then there's always the "we invented it" argument. If we use that one, then we must agree that it's called an ELEVATOR!
That article sounds AMAZINGLY close to the "TunnelVision" I read in the Metro Section of the Times about a month ago on the same subject.
The car in the picture doesn't look like a subway car. It looks more like an el gate car or a "Q" car interior. I might be wrong. It's definitely not an IRT subway car because of the seating arrangements. Experts on the site?
This was in fact the seating layout on the IRT before cars with middle doors arrived in 1915(?).
It also gave lots of prominence to Straphangers, rather implying that they have some kind of official status as a consumer group - do they?
No.
Well the speculation has ended. Tokens kaput after fare hike.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Tokens simply won't be accepted for rides after May 3. Once the fare hike kicks in, straphangers will have to exchange a token and 50 cents at a token booth for a ride or redeem them for cash value."
I guess in exchange for a token and 50 cents, the agent will issue a single ride Metrocard ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct.
It's reasonable to expect that, even after the token booths (they're going to have to call them something else now, like "Customer Care Kiosk") stop accepting tokens, you can still cash them in at TA headquarters in Brooklyn.
"they're going to have to call them [token booths] something else now, like 'Customer Care Kiosk'"
They've been called station booths and their staffers have been called station agents for a number of years now.
>>> They've been called station booths and their staffers have been called station agents for a number of years now. <<<
And for those with long enough memories, before 1953 they were called "Change Booths."
Tom
Nice picture. Poor spelling is obviously not just a modern problem!
Believe it or not, I found that sign lying on top of a pile of garbage bags in front of someone's house on my way to the subway to go to class one morning. I was already running late, and my heart skipped a beat when I saw it. Needless to say I became very late that day.....
When did the spelling change?
Hehe, I guess spelling problems on signs is not just a modern problem, unless "nickel" was one of those words like "Centre" or "Center".
According to Merriam-Webster Nickle is an acceptable variant of Nickel.
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC Nickle is a South American bird. It's color, green
AFAIK the centre/center thing is a UK/US thing... hence International Convention Centre vs World Trade Center. However, I have never seen Nickel spelt Nickle over here (although the word is somewhat restricted to Chemistry books in countries which do not use the Dollar), so I suspect it's a rather different linguistic phenomenon.
The village of "Rockville Centre" in Long Island is spelled the UK way. Also, in all of Canada, the UK spelling is the dominant way.
And then there's our Nassau Centre Street Loop that the JMZ find home. Well if you continue down Centre Street to Nassau Street to Broad Street, you will wind up in the Harbour, although that's New York's Harbor.
UK/US thing... hence International Convention Centre vs World Trade Center.
On the LIRR it's Rockville Cent..... : )
Cash-value Metrocards keep their cash value, which is what one would expect. But what about the extra ride on a $15 one bought just before the date? Presumably you lose that?
And no word about unlimiteds bought before the fare increase.........
You will have to add $.50 to it (use the MVM to do it).
Remember, the MetroCard stores a dollar value, not number of rides.
Only the PATH Quickcard works on number of rides rather than value.
Yes, but what if you have a $4 "Fun Pass"? From what I understand, after the fare increase, the "Fun Pass" will cost $7 instead. What will happen if someone tries to swipe a $4 pass after the date of the increase?
Forget it. I see questions answered further down this thread. Sorry!
(But what about the extra ride on a $15 one bought just before the date? Presumably you lose that?)
Just to elaborate, when you pay $15 for a card now it tells you the card is worth $16.50. So after you use 10 rides, you have $1.50 left on the card.
When the new fare comes into effect, you can get always get a 20% premium of fare value by spending $10 or more. So if you spend $10, you get $12, good for 6 more rides. I doubt you'll be able to say you want to spend $10.44 and get $12.50 added on as a result, thus giving you 7 more rides.
Clearly a new challenge for the Metrocard software.
BUT on the bus you can deposit your token & 50 cents.
Would you believe we still get those old "bulls-eye" tokens ?
Glad you brought that subject up Thurston.
Since QSC is a private carrier how soon after May 4 will they file with the DOT to raise the fare to $2.00 since the increase to MTA fares does not automatically apply to the franchise bus companies.
And how may bus drivers are going to get arguements from passengers who pay cash and know that they are not subject to the new fare on the franchise buses (in the past (pre-MetroCard) I have had arguements
with drivers on the QBx1 who insisted that they were entitlted to the increased fare as soon as the MTA buses got it. I always won the arguement,
"And how may bus drivers are going to get arguements from passengers who pay cash and know that they are not subject to the new fare on the franchise buses (in the past (pre-MetroCard) I have had arguements
with drivers on the QBx1 who insisted that they were entitlted to the increased fare as soon as the MTA buses got it. I always won the arguement, "
There shouldn't be any argument. If the bus company has not officially raised the fare, the driver has no authority to collect anything other than the official fare from anyone.
I would hope the companies aren't pushing drivers to do anything illegal.
I sincerely doubt if the companies are behind it. But I don't think they reminded the drivers that they weren't affected by the increase.
We'll put up a notice in a place that they are all supose to read stuff, but some will just walk by.
BTW, the "privates" have no vested interest in getting that extra 50 cents early. At one time the TA withheld 50 cents off MetroCards used off-peek until we complained "that ain't YOUR money". They gave us a refund.
I haven't heard anything yet, but Mayor Mike may push so it happens May 1st. SOP is a few months behind the TA.
Also look for the Off-peek $1.00 fare to go away.
Yesterday we had a lady ask us about the old $4.00 Express fare. Is it coming back she ask, most likely the answer was.
As long as the tokens deposited in the DOT bus farebox can be redeemed by the company (Queens Surface, Jamaica, or whoever) for cash from NYC Transit, it doesn't matter.
The TA still takes even older tokens from us. When we have enough to bother with them we send them in to a special department at Jay Street.
Do they pay the bus company the value of the token type (ie do they pay Queens Surface $1.50 for turning in a new token but only $1.25 for a bullseye, etc. etc.)?
They give us the full value of what the specific token was last worth.
Since the Transit Museum's getting $1.75, I'd trot over to accounting with the news. :)
What about unlimited cards? Can I hoard for example fun passes?
Arti
That's still a secret. And because they're being so quiet about it I'll bet they are not going to anything w/the unlimiteds. So, hoard away.
Peace,
ANDEE
According to Randy Kennedy in yesterday's times, they will "almost certainly" not honor old unlimiteds. As he himself suggested, pay attention to the wording.
I really don't think they'll want to deal with the headaches, but we shall see.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably, if the pre-purchasing of unlimiteds is only moderate, they'll just let them be used. But if it's really heavy, then they'll make them invalid.
The best and easiest way to handle the unlimited ride question is to allow unlimited ride cards activated prior to May 3 to continue to be valid.
On the issue of will purchaced but not activated unlimited passes be accpted after May 3 there is two ways to go
1)The HARD LINE - All unlimited passes not activated prior to May 3 are invalid and can be cashed in at tooken booths or at MVM's.
2)SOFTER LINE - allow unlimited passes purchaced prior to May 3 to be valid for activation until May 10. After May 10th they may be exchanged for cash value at MVM's or tooken booths.
Choice 2 would be the best and easiest way to go. There is no real advantage to hoarding Fun passes or unlimited ride passes. The average rider does not have to worry about will his pass work or not. Plus it will not cause a huge crush to exchange invalid unlimited ride cards
(There is no real advantage to hoarding Fun passes or unlimited ride passes.)
Sure there is, if the MTA allows them to be used.
Passes are good for at least a year. If I use 50 weekly passes per year (which many people do), I can save about $200 by hoarding 50 of them.
Your option 2 is probably a good idea for the MTA. Don't inconvenience customers immediately, but also don't let them hoard a year's worth of passes.
However, it would make sense for them to announce that now. Otherwise, they'll have a flood of people cashing in unactivated hoarded unlimited passes.
My guess is that they are in the process of modifying the encoding software to allow them allow them to better manage the unlimited ride situation before they make an announcement.
It would be disasterous to announce one thing and have it not work properly
"(There is no real advantage to hoarding Fun passes or unlimited ride passes.) "
That statement is true (except for fun passes) even if they do allow all passes to be valid in the future.
Why?
1) the MTA is getting all the money up front which they get to use right away. The reduced MVM maintance expense and lines at tooken booths will just allow the MTA to close more booths
2)If a person lays all that money out just to save a mere $200 weekly pass(don't people by weekly's to not lay out money) or $68 on monthly passes. That money could be better used by the person somewhere else. Especially if that someone has credit card debt.
If one wants to hoard weekly or monthly cards I can recommend a 0% credit card for ballance transfers and no transaction fee'
Chase Platinum- 800-574-7500
Citibank Dividend prefered.
or a nice $150 bonus for opening a checking account online($1500 min) at citibank - premotion code CGA
Actually...
I'd bet you would save NOTHING by hoarding, and the TA may come out the Winner.
THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY and are EARNING ITEREST on it and YOU ARE NOT!
Elias
Good point.
I still don't see how they could be invalidated.
After all, there's an explicit expiration date printed on the back, with no fine print listing exceptions. If I bought a Fun Pass yesterday that claims to be valid until 05/31/04 (as I did), then I expect to have a Fun Pass that's valid until 05/31/04.
Tokens, OTOH, have no explicit expiration date, and it's unreasonable to expect that they'll be valid forever.
Then there's the technical problem. I'm sure it's easy enough to determine when a card was encoded, but the cards sold in convenience stores and the like are encoded in advance. How would the turnstile know when a preencoded card was sold? Would the stores be provided with one set of cards at the old price and an entirely separate set of cards at the new price?
First of all it will not cost the MTA much if people Hoarded fun passes. The only people it would help is rail fans and the person who occasionally has days where one uses more then two rides.
The person who commutes back and forth 5 days a week and occasionally uses his metrocard on the weekend will be braking even at best by hoarding Fun Passes.
"Then there's the technical problem. I'm sure it's easy enough to determine when a card was encoded, but the cards sold in convenience stores and the like are encoded in advance"
These cards will be pulled from the shelves prior to the May 3 transition date. It is likely the MTA would not ship any unlimited ride cards to third party dealers after mid april. As the switchover date aproaches, dealers would trade in there unsold unlimted ride metrocard stock for the newly priced pass.
As for card expiration dates. The MTA just print up a batch of cards that expire the first week of May.
The MVM's and tooken booth computers could be programed to not allow riders to refill an older cards with a further out expiration date to ad unlimited ride bennifits. Concidering most riders don't refill there current cards this would not create many headaches.
It is likely that the MTA has not announced it's plans untill it is ready to impliment such a system.
It's too late for that. I'm holding in my hand a Fun Pass I bought yesterday for $4. It has a printed expiration date of 05/31/04. I gave NYCT $4 and in exchange NYCT gave me a contract, valid until 05/31/04, for one day's worth of unlimited subway and local bus rides. NYCT cannot amend that contract without my consent. (Ironically, NYCT could have given me a contract with any expiration date -- at no point does the machine quote a date until the card shoots out of the slot. But NYCT did, in the end, give me an expiration date of 05/31/04. BTW, if anyone's looking for such a card, I got it at the MEM on the right at the south mezzanine at 96th and Broadway -- that's MEM #5481, for those paying attention.)
That's not to say that NYCT won't try, and chances are I won't hire a lawyer to assist me in forcing NYCT to honor its end of the deal. But somebody will, I'm sure, and I don't anticipate NYCT winning such a case.
As for card expiration dates. The MTA just print up a batch of cards that expire the first week of May.
That would be incredibly wasteful, since any unused cards won't be able to be encoded and will have to be discarded.
Not so. The MTA knows how many cards it uses during any given period.
Not every card given out has to have the earlier expiration date. The public just has to be made aware that the MTA will be issuing cards that will expire on X date to prevent hoarding.
That alone will kepp the large majority of riders from hoarding. It makes it more of a gamble to try to hoard cards.
>>>>I still don't see how they could be invalidated. <<<<
Dearest David,
You forget that the TA makes the rules up as they go along. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> You forget that the TA makes the rules up as they go along. <<<
They may make up the rules as they go along, but David is right regarding the expiration dates on the cards. The MTA has entered into a contract with those purchasing those cards to honor them until the expiration date on them. They cannot legally change that contract unilaterally.
Tom
If the TA were smart they would replace the current stock of metrocards with cards that expire one or slightly after the may 3 fare increase.
That would completly elininate the expiration date issue. As to the fact the MTA has entered into a contract with those purchacing those cards to honor them until the expiration date. I am not sure if that argument holds any water especially if the MTA prompty refunds the cost of the card
One could argue that if a rider purchaces a token prior to a fare change and the MTA changes the token that the MTA entered into a contract to provide a ride for the price at the time of purchace. That has never been taken to court and any reasonable court would throw the suit out as long as the MTA refunded the money for said token or metrocard
>>> One could argue that if a rider purchaces a token prior to a fare change and the MTA changes the token that the MTA entered into a contract to provide a ride for the price at the time of purchace. <<<
That would be a losing argument. A token like a gambling casino chip, represents its purchase price, $1.50, not the right to ride on a subway. It is similar to a value based MetroCard which provides a (discounted) dollar value against which the turnstile removes the current fare when used. OTOH an unlimited MetroCard is a contract to provide unlimited rides for a fixed period of time in the future for a fixed price today (a type of travel futures). Once I have paid the price and received a promise that I may initiate usage of the card within a certain period of time, the MTA cannot come back to me and say "Never mind, we were only kidding." This is the heart of contract law.
Tom
"That would be a losing argument. A token like a gambling casino chip, represents its purchase price, $1.50, not the right to ride on a subway."
Hnnnh. That doesn't ring right somehow. Seems like semantics, at least on the part of the service provider. `pears to me that when you purchase an instrument of entry to the system, what you're obtaining is a "right" to be transported within the boundries of the sytem. It isn't the fault of a rider if after acquiring the sanctioned means of system entry, current prices are higher than what the rider paid. When the entry was purchased, the price paid was legal. The transit system is not a sanctioned bank nor a financial institution. It is a provider of rides. Whatever it was that you got to allow you entry to the system should be "legal tender" for all rides obtained (with this previously agreed upon instrument of entry.) Basically, yeah, you bought a ride. Any other interpretation of the process is, IMO, a snowjob.
>>> `pears to me that when you purchase an instrument of entry to the system, what you're obtaining is a "right" to be transported within the boundries of the sytem. <<<
You are giving the lowly token more importance than it deserves. It is not a "ticket" which is a transportation contract, but a method to insure passengers will move through turnstiles quickly. Prior to 1953 turnstiles were operated by a single coin. A nickel until July, 1948, and then a dime (never two nickels). When the fare was increased to 15¢ a decision had to be made. Either modify the turnstiles to accept multiple coins, or issue tokens. Coin acceptance technology was not as advanced half a century ago as it is now, so each coin would have to be recognized dropping through mechanical traps until 15¢ total was deposited before the turnstile would open. That could be either two or three coins, significantly slowing down the throughput of passengers through the turnstiles. Since there was no 15¢ coin, and an increase to 25¢ was politically impossible, the token was born as a 15¢ special purpose coin. It continued through the various fare increases as the way to operate a turnstile with a single coin. MetroCard technology has made the token obsolete, so it is being retired rather than modifying all the turnstiles to accept a $2.00 token and reject the current $1.50 token.
Tom
A very correct and excellent description.
I do remember when H&M charged 30 cents per ride, but sold tokens at 15 cents each. You had to deposit two tokens to get the turnstile to open. They did this because of the large crossover of tokens from NYCT, which had a 15 cent fare. H&M and NTCT used the same small token size, tokens of both systems showed up in turnstiles and both railways Accounting Departments were kept busy exchanging tokens.
When the Port Authority took over H&M, the first thing they did was to change the turnstiles to take only a new, larger token, sold at 30 cents.
When all this went on, to ride to Newark still required a ticket, as the service was still Joint Service with the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Baltimore has managed to reduce token use without actually eliminating them. Tokens are sold at the current rate of 10 for $11.00, giving the token user a 5 cent reduction in the base fare of $1.15. They can only be purchased at the downtown main office of the MTA, open weekdays only. They are not sold on vehicles or at subway stations.
Passes are so heavily used that tokens are rarely ever seen. A token only gives a single ride (there are no transfers) and a pass gives the rider unlimited trips. A Day Pass is sold on all buses and at all Light Rail and subway ticket machines for $3.00 and is good from time of purchase to system closing (about 1:30 AM for most lines).
That was a good history of the token. But maybe you missed my point? I'm saying, "Here, please accept this sum of money, you in the booth there, or "you" in the machine there. Now, what have I just purchased?"
For all intents and purposes, I have purchased a contract, or at least, the official representation of a contract, be it token or card, that gives me permission to use the service as described. Me, being frugal, have purchased in advance of need a quantity of these representations. Having remitted the proper payment, it would only seem right that in the future, when I submit one of these representations for entry, I will be permitted entry without the burden of remitting additional charges due to higher current costs for the same representations.
If you're saying that the token or card is NOT a contract for a rider to enter the system, I have to ask, what then is the process to be called? One way or another, money and value received has to be exchanged. I admit, if the primary method of entry was cash, I wouldn't have a case here. You would just pay what the fare is as posted. If you have to use a token, or a card, though, they should be honored as correct fare. It might be a loophole but it still seems like the "correct" action to take.
>>> if the primary method of entry was cash, I wouldn't have a case here. You would just pay what the fare is as posted. If you have to use a token, or a card, though, they should be honored as correct fare. <<<
No, you have not purchased a contract. There are no terms regarding how long the token would be valid written on it. What you received was a method of passing through the turnstile. The MTA can at any time remove the tokens from circulation and return to you what you paid for the no longer valid token. If they had coin slots on the turnstiles so you could deposit coins to open them you have no problem with the idea that the MTA can change the fare. Here instead of a coin slot, you pay your fare at a token booth and are given a coin worth $1.50 to deposit in the turnstile to open it. That is the functional equivalent of providing a coin slot into which you deposited coins. The fact that you are permitted to purchase more than one token at a time if you wish to avoid standing in line each time you go to a station does not alter the basic transaction.
If you were required to purchase the tokens in bulk, say 10 at a time, so you could not be reasonably expected to use them all at one time, there would be an implied contract that the tokens would be valid long enough for a reasonable person to use all of them.
For example, here in Los Angeles, basic cash fares are $1.35 during the day and 75¢ at night (on buses) and what are called "tokens" are sold only at the rate of $9.00 for ten. These are not true tokens as defined by Webster as "a piece resembling a coin issued as money by some person or body other than a de jure government." Since you cannot buy just one at the cash fare price for immediate use, they are meant as a contract to provide future service for present payment. The LACMTA could not just state that these tokens would no longer be accepted and refund 90¢ for each token.
Tom
Hmmm, law school guy, eh? :-] Well, I'm surprised at that conclusion. I always thought the "token" was legal tender....and non-volatile, to boot. But if there are no precedents that could validate my position, I could be wrong about it, I guess.
>>> I always thought the "token" was legal tender <<<
No, the federal government has a monopoly on legal tender and does not take kindly to competition. At one time, Las Vegas casino chips (which are a form of token) circulated all over the Las Vegas area, and one casino's chips would be accepted in other casinos and chips were accepted in stores all over town for their face value.
Back then, casinos were not run by the most upstanding citizens, and they would dip into the supply of chips without putting any money in the cash drawer and then spend the chips elsewhere, in effect making their own money. The federal government clamped down on them in the ‘50s, and now no casino will accept another casino's chips, nor will stores or banks accept them. Chips can only legally be used and redeemed in the casino that issues them. Technically chips should be redeemed before a player leaves the premises. But if you happen to have any souvenir $1,000 chips lying around, I'd be happy to buy them from you (for my collection) at about $100 apiece.
Tom
I have a few left-over casino chips from my honeymoon. I save them as souveniers. ;-)
"For example, here in Los Angeles, basic cash fares are $1.35 during the day and 75¢ at night (on buses) and what are called "tokens" are sold only at the rate of $9.00 for ten. These are not true tokens as defined by Webster as "a piece resembling a coin issued as money by some person or body other than a de jure government." Since you cannot buy just one at the cash fare price for immediate use, they are meant as a contract to provide future service for present payment. The LACMTA could not just state that these tokens would no longer be accepted and refund 90¢ for each token. "
Why not? When you buy a movie ticket the theatre reserves the right to eject you by paying you back your entry fee. Of course, you gain there, because you would have seen part of the movie for free.
Assuming your theory is true, there would have to be some limit on this contract. My buying a ten-pack of tokens does not entitle me to pay the old fare a month from now, since I would reasonably be expected to run out of tokens long before then. And we're not even dealing with the issue that, unlike fare cards, the transit authority could not know how much you in particular bought in the way of tokens if you paid cash for them (if you used your Discover Card, though, you'd have a receipt and an entry in a billing statement).
>>> When you buy a movie ticket the theatre reserves the right to eject you by paying you back your entry fee. <<<
You are mixing apples and oranges. The theater refund is a right to refuse service. A transit agency has the same right, and probably exercises it if a passenger is drunk and annoying others.
>>> there would have to be some limit on this contract. My buying a ten-pack of tokens does not entitle me to pay the old fare a month from now, since I would reasonably be expected to run out of tokens long before then. <<<
One month is a very short time. I haven't ridden public transportation since I got my car. But if the car is in the shop for repairs, I might ride public transportation for two or three rides, and not ride it again for six months.
If there were to be a fare hike, the probable strategy would be to raise the price of tokens before the cash price is raised, and provide a relatively short notice of the price increase, such as announcing on Monday that the price of tokens will go up on Friday, and limit the number of tokens that can be purchased by one person to 10 at a time prior to the increase. There would be no physical change in the tokens used. If the use of token was to be discontinued altogether, there would have to be a considerable time, up to a year after they stopped selling them that tokens would be redeemed at its latest price or accepted for fare payment.
BTW, there is a secondary market for tokens in Los Angeles. At downtown bus stops there are usually street people offering to sell a single token for $1.10. A saving for the purchaser of 25¢, and a 22% return on investment for the entrepreneur.
Tom
"You are mixing apples and oranges. The theater refund is a right to refuse service. A transit agency has the same right, and probably exercises it if a passenger is drunk and annoying others."
And the latter is what I was describing, so it appears I was comparing an apple to an apple after all. I stand by my argument.
"One month is a very short time. I haven't ridden public transportation since I got my car. But if the car is in the shop for repairs, I might ride public transportation for two or three rides, and not ride it again for six months. "
That's not the transit authority's problem; that's your problem.
"If the use of token was to be discontinued altogether, there would have to be a considerable time, up to a year after they stopped selling them that tokens would be redeemed at its latest price or accepted for fare payment."
The MTA has agreed to this. You can use tokens on buses until the end of 2003; you can cash in your tokens at a booth; you will be able to go to TA headquarters at 370 Jay Street for the forseeable future and cah in tokens there, no questions asked. Thurston has posted that DOT bus operators are still able to cash in older tokens at the TA, implying you can even cash in those for their assigned value, or use them on a DOT bus. So you have no issue here.
"BTW, there is a secondary market for tokens in Los Angeles. At downtown bus stops there are usually street people offering to sell a single token for $1.10. A saving for the purchaser of 25¢, and a 22% return on investment for the entrepreneur. "
Wow. To think this could actually happen in Los Angeles. Transit in Southen California is maturing in the culture, isn't it?
>>> The MTA has agreed to this. You can use tokens on buses until the end of 2003 <<<
I was talking about the requirement to accept discount tokens that LACMTA uses for a fare after a fare hike. What the MTA is doing is in its own interest. They are not allowing the tokens to be used for a fare, but as a $1.50 token. If they required them to be redeemed in a short period of time, they would have to pay the holders $1.50 for each one. This way they get what amounts to an interest free loan for each outstanding token.
Tom
"I was talking about the requirement to accept discount tokens that LACMTA uses for a fare after a fare hik"
Sorry, missed your context. Understood.
"What the MTA is doing is in its own interest. They are not allowing the tokens to be used for a fare, but as a $1.50 token. If they required them to be redeemed in a short period of time, they would have to pay the holders $1.50 for each one. This way they get what amounts to an interest free loan for each outstanding token. "
Nothing wrong with that. Nobody forces me to hoard tokens. And, until the announced phase-out, tokens were still very much an accepted ersatz currency in much of the city. Many times, I have bought food using a token (and was offered change if the item cost less than the token's value). So if I wanted to get immediate value from my token, but not on a subway or bus, in fact, I had a practical way to achieve that. No more, of course.
When you buy a movie ticket the theatre reserves the right to eject you by paying you back your entry fee.
Exactly. The contract includes such a clause. I'm looking at the back of a movie ticket (from the Lincoln Square Loews Cineplex): "THE MANAGEMENT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVOKE THE LICENSE GRANTED BY THIS TICKET BY REFUNDING THE TICKET PRICE."
If NYCT included a similar clause on the back of the MetroCard, or posted at MetroCard sales outlets, or perhaps even somewhere else readily accessible to the public, then the analogy would follow. Can you show me such a MetroCard?
The *card* does NOT expire...
It's still good, but you'll have to ADD some MONEY to it before you can use it.
Simple, yes?
The problem with metrocard horders and why they got rid of adds on the metrocard is there is a limited amount of unique serial numbers for all metrocards. If a person bought a card and never activated it, even though it has an experation date on it, would the TA recyle the number?
They have no record it was used, what happens if they do recyle the number and then the card is attempted to be used after experation date on the card?
I'm sure they thought of all this but it is the TA.
Lemme get this straight (since I left the city before the paper tokens and only bought one funpass which I burned and kept) ... when you buy a regular card, you can't stuff it back in the machine and get refills on it until it won't read any longer? Or do you feed a card that's run low into the machine, it eats it and issues you a new one for what you paid plus the value of the old?
What I'm trying to understand is let's say you buy a card with say $10 on it and end up with 97 cents of value on it. Do you lose the 97 cents? Don't mind me - aside from the fun pass purchase for our Christmas event, I've always bought and used tokens so I don't understand how it all works.
Don't waste a bunch of time on the answer, simple and generic will suffice. But I'm just curious at the mention of "getting rid of adds" as far as this paper token thingy goes, so it has me wondering if I can't add, and I ain't got enough on it for a valid fare, what happens?
What I'm trying to understand is let's say you buy a card with say $10 on it and end up with 97 cents of value on it. Do you lose the 97 cents? Don't mind me - aside from the fun pass purchase for our Christmas event, I've always bought and used tokens so I don't understand how it all works.
How would you end up with 97¢? For a non-reduced fare card the refills or purchases can only be in 50¢ intervals, and the bonus means that you can end up with a card that has a multiple of 5¢. 97¢ is impossible.
If you had a card with 95¢ you would add 55¢ to it.
I picked an arbitrary number (bear in mind, I don't know how the discount works or how it applies) ... but what you're saying is that I can put the card back into the machine and do an "add" to it. THAT was what I was wondering since the post I replied to mentioned that "adds" might not be done, so I envisioned value getting somehow stranded ...
You can refill a card up until the expiration date printed on the back, which is typically 12-15 months after the purchase date.
Thanks! That somehow seems more logical. So when it expires, and there's still value on it, can you exchange it for a new one at a machine or do you have to pray to the postal fairy and await civil servitude?
A pay-per-ride card can be refilled. Beginning about one month before expiration, and continuing until one year after expiration, the machines will offer to trade it in for a new card. Also, any card that has not yet expired or has expired within the past year can be traded in at any booth for a new card (or the remaining balance can be transferred onto any other card). Once the year grace period is up, IINM whatever value remains is forfeited permanently, and eventually the serial number is recycled. (Wouldn't it be neat if the leftover value were transferred magically to whoever happened to end up with a new card with the same serial number? Reincarnation of fares. But I don't think that happens.)
An unlimited card cannot be refilled. Once it's used up, it's garbage (except to a MetroCard collector). After the printed expiration date, I think the only way to get a replacement is to mail it to NYCT. Again, the time limit is one year after the printed expiration date. I'm not sure what happens (i.e., what sort of credit is granted) if the printed expiration date falls in the middle of the period of unlimited usage (e.g., if I have a 30-day unlimited with an expiration date of 3/31/03 that I started using today).
Sorry for being such a nimrod on all this - that funpass we bought last Christmas was the first time in the city in a long long time and I always used tokens. I wouldn't expect a funpass to be reloadable, but I somehow got the impression that the regular cards could suddenly go poof with not quite enough for a fare still on them. Obviously this isn't the case. THANKS to you and everyone else.
As for reincarnation of cards, I'm surprised there aren't transit psychics that can do that. Oh yeah, they're called "swipers." :)
Funpass is an unlimted card al-be-it a one day (or until 2am next day in fact). So you can not refill it. You must buy a new card.
>>> (or until 2am next day in fact)<<
CORECTION, 3 AM
Peace,
ANDEE
Daylight saving?
No. Pay-per-ride cards are encoded with dollar values, which will be maintained across the fare hike. Unlimited cards are encoded with a zero dollar value but also with a period of valid unlimited usage (one day, seven days, or thirty days).
(Pay-per-ride cards are encoded with dollar values, which will be maintained across the fare hike. )
Have you noticed the following anomaly:
- If I put $60 on a metrocard now, I get a 10% bonus, so the card says $66, and I get 44 rides (pre-May 4).
- If I put $60 on a metrocard after May 4, I get a 20% bonus, so the card says $72, which is then good for 36 post-May 4 rides.
BUT: if I put $60 on a metrocard now and don't use it till after May 4th, it says $66, which is good for only 33 rides.
The moral of the story: I lose 1/12 of any real value I have on my card as of the May 4th transition.
Yes. I've never bought a PPR in increments of less than $15, but that will probably change as May 4 approaches, at which point I will want to have a zero balance.
There will be long lines at the machines on May 4 and May 5, especially if older unlimiteds will be invalidated after all.
>>>>.... will probably change as May 4 approaches, at which point I will want to have a zero balance. <<<<
I agree with you, on this, you definitly need to have a ZERO balnce on your PPR MC on May 4th @ 0000.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> you definitly need to have a ZERO balnce on your PPR MC on May 4th @ 0000. <<<
You should clarify that it is important not to purchase excessive value prior to May 4th. It does you absolutely no good to take unnecessary trips (railfanning counts as necessary) to lower your balance to zero.
Tom
Of course railfanning counts as necessary!
>>> I lose 1/12 of any real value I have on my card as of the May 4th transition. <<<
You also lose 25% of the value of your transit riding cash with the fare hike.
Tom
I was trying to point out that it costs you real money to have money on your metrocard as you go through the transition. This is over and above the fact that you will then have to pay more for future rides.
So you're suggesting that we do all our riding now and stop taking the subway after May 4?
That may be impractical for a few people.
Think of the potential for weight loss with all that walking.
Not to mention that subway cars will use less electricity with no one riding them. The TA will have a new way to conserve energy...
:0)
Another item for consideration: The MTA has long allowed hoarding of commuter railroad tickets. I have purchased one-way off peak tickets valid for a year and used them long after a fare increase and they were honored.
So I wouldn't be surprised if NYCT honors unlimiteds purchased beforehand. They'll lose some money, but if they don't they'll have to redeem all the hoarded cards. And some people will lose their hoarded cards or forget to ue them in time, and they'll make money on those.
>> The MTA has entered into a contract with those purchasing those cards to honor them until the expiration date on them. They cannot legally change that contract unilaterally. <<
Show me the contract and we'll decide if it's enforceable or not. Oh, it's verbal, or implied? Then it's worth the paper on which it's printed. A MetroCard states "subject to applicable tariffs or conditions of use." Okay-- the tariffs currently in effect no longer apply after May 4. After May 4, new tariffs will be in effect. That is such a broadly worded "contract" that the MTA's highly-paid lawyers will surely be able to have it interpreted any way they see fit. For all we know the current tariffs or conditions of use say that they have the right to void the card without notice or refund. Has anyone actually read those tariffs or conditions of use before purchasing a MetroCard? I know I haven't. I may owe the MTA my firstborn for having purchased a MetroCard! It looks as though they're incorporating something by reference, but just what that is is anyone's guess.
>>> Show me the contract and we'll decide if it's enforceable or not. Oh, it's verbal, or implied? Then it's worth the paper on which it's printed. <<<
Oral contracts are endorsable, just harder to prove, but the MetroCard purchase is not an oral contract, it is written, and all the MTA advertising of the terms on the card itself and in written pamphlets and on its web site provide the terms.
>>> A MetroCard states "subject to applicable tariffs or conditions of use." Okay-- the tariffs currently in effect no longer apply after May 4. <<<
It is the tariffs or conditions of use in effect at the time the card was purchased that control, not changes made later to abrogate the deal made between the purchaser and the MTA.
>>> That is such a broadly worded "contract" that the MTA's highly-paid lawyers will surely be able to have it interpreted any way they see fit. <<<
I have already stated that the amount in question for any individual is so small that I doubt there will be any litigation about it. Some crooks get rich by stealing small amounts from many people. If the amounts are small enough, none of the victims even bother to report it to the police.
>>> Has anyone actually read those tariffs or conditions of use before purchasing a MetroCard? I know I haven't. I may owe the MTA my firstborn for having purchased a MetroCard! It looks as though they're incorporating something by reference, but just what that is is anyone's guess. <<<
If the terms incorporated by reference contradict the terms presented to the purchaser in advertising, and were not made available and explained at the time of purchase, they would not be enforced.
Tom
If the terms incorporated by reference contradict the terms presented to the purchaser in advertising, and were not made available and explained at the time of purchase, they would not be enforced.
You wanna bet your MetroCard on that?
>> It is the tariffs or conditions of use in effect at the time the card was purchased that control, not changes made later to abrogate the deal made between the purchaser and the MTA. <<
What I'm trying to say is that the contract in effect at the time of purchase probably gives them the unilateral right to change the contract or even terminate it. It may read something like this:
"Purchaser agrees that the Authority has the right to void the Card without warning in its sole discretion for any reason or no reason at all or to change the terms of this Agreement upon publication of a legal notice in the SoHo Journal or other officially designated publication having a circulation in the Service Area."
And if that sounds unfair, try reading a software license or any other legal agreement. A person has to agree to lots of unfair stuff in order to function outside of an Amish farm these days. I bet lots of folks wouldn't click "yes" to the Microsoft license agreement if they actually bothered to read it-- but if you don't click "yes," you can't install the software. I suppose an MVM could be reprogrammed to display a contract before selling a MetroCard, but what's the difference-- you want to ride the subway or bus, you have to play by their rules.
What I find strange is that the MTA website has no such terms of service agreement posted. In the modern world this is very surprising.
What I find strange is that the MTA website has no such terms of service agreement posted. In the modern world this is very surprising.
Such notice to be valid would need to be posted or available where one could easily find it
>> What I find strange is that the MTA website has no such terms of service agreement posted. In the modern world this is very surprising. Such notice to be valid would need to be posted or available where one could easily find it. <<
I have submitted an inquiry concerning this topic via the web site. I'll be curious to read the response. I imagine that somewhere is a document that constitutes the "applicable tariffs and conditions of use." It may not be on the web site but perhaps it is "available for public inspection during normal business hours at our main office..."
In other words, you have to pay a fare to find out what exactly that fare is getting you.
Please keep us posted
Here's what I was told:
"Information regarding the current fare tariffs along with the conditions of use of our MetroCards is currently available in our MetroCard brochures, which can be obtained upon request at any subway station token booth. In addition, you can also request that a MetroCard brochure be sent to your mailing address by calling Customer Services at (718) 330-3322, from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday through Friday, or by writing to Customer Services at 370 Jay Street, Room 702, Brooklyn, NY 11201. We also encourage you to log onto our website at www.mta.info, to get further information regarding our MetroCards."
I'm sure I read a MetroCard brochure at some point and I don't recall any substantial legalese. Maybe they don't have as airtight a case as I had figured except that it's their game so they get to write the rules-- and it is government, after all. What do we do, call the Better Business Bureau? :)
I will request the brochure at my local booth tomorrow. I don't recall seeing any leagese in any MTA materials
>>> What I'm trying to say is that the contract in effect at the time of purchase probably gives them the unilateral right to change the contract or even terminate it. It may read something like this:
"Purchaser agrees that the Authority has the right to void the Card without warning in its sole discretion for any reason or no reason at all or to change the terms of this Agreement upon publication of a legal notice in the SoHo Journal or other officially designated publication having a circulation in the Service Area." <<<
Anything that is to be agreed to must be seen. For a purchaser to agree to something he must be aware of it. For that to be effective there would at least need to be an asterisk near the expiration notice with an footnote that it was subject to change.
>>> I bet lots of folks wouldn't click "yes" to the Microsoft license agreement if they actually bothered to read it-- but if you don't click "yes," you can't install the software. <<<
There is the difference. Early software did not have the necessity of displaying and clicking acceptance of the contract. Usually it was something stating "opening this shrinkwrap means you agree to the terms of the contract contained in the box, with a fine print insert somewhere in the box the software came in. Software manufacturers lost court cases when they tried to rely on the "no warranties" clause in the fine print, when purchasers relied on the box advertising that said the software would do something and claimed they had not seen the fine print disclaimer. This led to manufacturers making agreeing to the contract (which was available to read, not referring to some other document) a requirement before installing the software.
Tom
I still don't see how they could be invalidated.
David-
Take a look at some of the discussion on nyc.transit (which I know you read) for a number of ideas and opinions on the subject.
Mark
>>> Take a look at some of the discussion on nyc.transit <<<
Courtesy requires a link, or at least an address. This was not an e-mail just to David. :-(
Tom
Courtesy requires a link, or at least an address. This was not an e-mail just to David. :-(
Sorry, Tom, you're right. I was referring to several threads in nyc.transit.
Mark
Yes, I'm quite aware.
I still don't see how NYCT could wiggle out of an explicit expiration date without triggering scads of lawsuits.
expiration dates don't guarantee that the card will continue to work until that date, they only guarantee that it will stop working on that date.
Hence I don't think there's a legal problem, so long as the MTA is willing to provide refunds for the cards that they invalidate.
So NYCT could decide that all of my cards will stop working tomorrow?
I don't think so.
>>> I still don't see how NYCT could wiggle out of an explicit expiration date without triggering scads of lawsuits. <<<
Although I agree with you that unlimited MetroCards are valid until their expiration date, as a practical matter, because of the relatively low amounts involved there would not be many lawsuits if the MTA abrogated the contracts with a refund.
Tom
Class action, maybe?
Over what?
Riding the subway is a privilege, not a right - just as driving a car is a privilege afforded by a license, which can be revoked.
So long as MTA gives you your money back for the unused portion (however that is defined) of your MetroCard, you have no enforceable cause for legal action.
I have no right to use transit until NYCT enters into a contract with me to provide service under certain terms. Those terms include the validity of the contract until a specified date. I see no indication in the terms and conditions that NYCT has the right to modify the expiration date or to cancel the contract.
A contract cannot be (legally) cancelled by refunding the price paid. Could NYCT decide today to cancel the rest of the R-142 order and refund Bombardier for the cars not yet delivered? Not unless such a termination clause was written into the contract.
A contract can only be cancelled if both parties consent. I do not consent to a cancellation of my contract with NYCT under the conditions you propose (that NYCT refund my purchase price).
David If you want I will pull out my contract law book and come up with a dozen exceptions.
In the case of a prepaid yearly LIRR PASS. The LIRR is obligated to provide the service for the period paid.
The same is true for a montly pass that has been activated prior to the fare hike
One could argue that the contract period to provide service for X period of time commences with the ACTIVATION of the unlimited ride pass. If the card isnot activated the contract could be concidered null and void.
Like I said before the best thing the MTA could do is pull out a set of Metrocards with a expiration date of a few weeks after the deadline. All Fun passes shiped to merchants expire on the may 4. You knock out 2/3 of the problems. In addtion riders must use new cards to buy fun passes to avoid the clever act of using old cards to extend the expiration date of the old fare
>>> Riding the subway is a privilege, not a right <<<
Where did you get that idea? I had better get down to the subway riders licensing board right away, I have never received a license for the privilege of paying to ride the subway.
>>> So long as MTA gives you your money back for the unused portion (however that is defined) of your MetroCard, you have no enforceable cause for legal action. <<<
And your authority for that statement is???? As I stated in an earlier post, that is absolutely contrary to normal contract law.
Tom
And to add to what Tom and David said, the MTA precedent is that they honor their commitments. Commuter railroad tickets purchased at the lower price and marked valid for 1 year have always been honored as long as they were valid.
OTOH, NYCT and the commuter railroads are different agencies and appear to be treated quite differently in Albany.
(OTOH, NYCT and the commuter railroads are different agencies and appear to be treated quite differently in Albany.)
And again OTOH, have you noticed that the subways are getting a SMALER increase (11-23% except for fun passes) than the railroads?
I should have said 11-23% for any kind of service, except for fun passes, that any reasonable person buys.
The average increases are supposedly the same 25%. I don't know how the MTA computes 25% as the average for NYCT, but that's the claim.
We don't know yet how the 25% railroad increase is being broken down.
And the B&T increase is very low.
>>>>...OTOH, NYCT and the commuter railroads are different agencies...<<<
Stop kidding yourself, Their all part of the same bueracratic mess.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>...OTOH, NYCT and the commuter railroads are different agencies...<<<
Stop kidding yourself, They're all part of the same bueracratic mess.
Peace,
ANDEE
Even better, the MTA can send all the metrocard purchase and usage information to the big FBI computer to help fight the war on Terrorism. "Big Brother Thanks you for Riding the MTA"
You credit card, bank department store, check cachier already sell such info to experion, equifax, transunion which then sell the info to marketers.
There's a difference when a marketing company has your info and when the gov't has it. The gov't can do anything they want to you with the info it has, like throw you in jail. The worst a marketer can do is annoy you to death.
Anyway, who says you have to give your personal info when you buy a Metrocard? You can always pay in cash.
"There's a difference when a marketing company has your info and when the gov't has it"
Yeh, marketing companies have free ride. Many consumers are completly unaware of the fact that the credit reporting agencies are in fact profile builders for which the profiles and information are used to market products, aprove or disaprove loans, employers use them to check whether or not the employee responcible(the is usually a form one fill out when one is apllying for a job). The information in the credit agencies database can be used for identify theft. I worked for a company that was purchaced by one of the big credit agencies. They have very lax security measures. One would be shocked at how easy it is to pull up one's life history. For years these companies did not invest enough in technology to ensure proper security
"The gov't can do anything they want to you with the info it has, like throw you in jail"
I support the government using the same practices to track down potential national security risks. The fact of the matter a tremenduuse amount of crime occurs in this country because govenment agencies do not utilize info from other government agencies and information freely available in the private sector.
With that said, there need to be tight clearly defined restrictions on the use of the compiled information. The civil liberties types complain about big brother. it is these same groups who accept donations from the big data agregators/credit agencies.
I'm a bit confused. If you want to exchange a token, why is it with 50 cents as well? Wasn't a token vauled as a 1.50? I mean, one token equals one ride and that equals 1.50, well before the fare hike.
The fare will be $2.
So 1 token+50¢=new fare
Ok, I buy a monthly express bus pass ($120). I heard this is going to now be a weekly pass as of may. Will my monthly one (if activated before the 3rd) still work or will I have to trade it in for 4 weeklys?
A thought. Now that there will only be Metrocards, no tokens, the two "free Metrocard-only out-of-system transfers" will now apply to all passengers transferring at those locations. It would be imaginative of the MTA (which probably means it won't happen) to institute more of these now - for example at Junius/Livonia. Any ideas for other possible places?
Rector (Broadway Lcl) - Rector (7th Lcl) and Fulton (Xtown) - Lafayette (Fulton Lcl) - Atlantic/Pacific Complex spring to mind.
The problem is that, without exit swipes, an out-of-system transfer can be used for round trips. I often take advantage of the three affected stations in Manhattan.
OTOH, maybe it's not a problem at all. Perhaps the time has come to allow two hours of unlimited rides per fare paid. That would soften the blow of the loss of a useful one-day unlimited card.
(Perhaps the time has come to allow two hours of unlimited rides per fare paid. That would soften the blow of the loss of a useful one-day unlimited card.)
It would be very nice, but I'm sure the MTA doesn't want to absorb the resulting revenue loss. Lots of people do quick round trips.
But on the flip side, some expensive capital projects could be postponed or cancelled entirely. Who cares if you have to go up to the street to transfer between the F and the uptown 6 as long as you can do it for free? (An enclosed connection would be nice, of course, but it wouldn't be as badly needed as it is now.)
(Who cares if you have to go up to the street to transfer between the F and the uptown 6 as long as you can do it for free?)
Interesting issue. I think people don't use the outside transfers even if they have an unlimited.
My personal observations (which are relatively few) are that in the PM rush, droves of people get off the 6 in the front at Bleecker and head for the F. These are mostly people that commute daily and have unlimiteds.
However, I don't see a reverse trend where droves get off at Bway Lafayette, go to the downtown 6 platform, walk it to the north end, exit, cross Lafayette, and re-enter (this is the easiest way to use the outside transfer). But I'm hardly ever at Bleecker in the morning rush.
It would be nice to hear from someone who does that frequently. Are they alone, or do they have lots of company?
---
Who cares if you have to go up to the street to transfer between the F and the uptown 6 as long as you can do it for free?
---
unless you NEED that transfer for a BUS
I was suggested a 2-hour window of unlimited usage. Ride all the buses you want.
Perhaps the time has come to allow two hours of unlimited rides per fare paid.
That would end the ability to pay for more than one person at at time.
I don't see why. The system couldn't keep track of four unlimited periods at once? We know it can keep track of four transfers. The only difference is that the transfer has some limitations and that the transfer goes away when it's used. (There are even some exceptions there, like the bus-SIR-ferry-subway transfer privilege.)
To supplement what you say, I believe a customer can do 4 swipes anywhere, then go to 59th and Lex within 2 hours, swipe once, and get the message "4 transfers OK".
I took a trip to Canarsie yesterday. After taking a bus and train to Jamaica and hopped on an E train for one stop to Parsons boulevard. While there I hopped on a J train towards Broadway Junction. I went past 121st street (you were right, it is still the same it was years ago) and 111th street the middle track still there but in bad condition. Went past the Rockaway ROW and I said tsk tsk tsk they should really rebuild that line. Went past Cypress Hills S curve (we must have went 5 mph through it. Stopped and got off at Van Siclen Ave for historical reasons (oldest surviving station in the New York Subway System) only went as far as the crossunder saw the old style el columns (I wonder why there isn't any pictures of Van Siclen station).
Hopped on another train two stops to Broadway Junction got off there almost made the mistake of going to the westbound Canarsie platform. I took an R143 to Canarsie went past Atlantic Ave saw the Fulton Street remnants and went towards Canarsie. Went past Sutter, Livonia, and New Lots Aves; saw the Bay Ridge Canarsie line connection remnants. I went past East 105th street saw a dead end stree and wondered if that was the street that had the level crossing many years ago. Finally the train stopped at Canarsie and only stayed on the platform for a minute because I knew it was not safe there. I hardly saw the two R26's because they were right behind the train. I went back in the train and in a few minutes the train left towards Manhattan.
On the way back I stopped and got off at the Atlantic Ave Manhattan bound platform saw the remnants of the Fulton Street tracks and looked at the middle platform most of the roofs of the platform have been dismantled. Took the next train (R42) one stop to Broadway Junction got off there and took the next J train to Jamaica. The train was jammed although I found and went in a car that wasn't so bad. Went to Jamaica did not get off at anywhere but Sutphin Blvd. Took the LIRR to Massapequa Park the train was express until Wantagh and got off at Massapequa. Had a good trip saw quite a bit.
P.S. The R143 I went on was the first one on the Canarsie line 8101-8108.
> (I wonder why there isn't any pictures of Van Siclen station).
If you took some send them along...
Sorry didn't take one along.
Stopped and got off at Van Siclen Ave for
historical reasons (oldest surviving station in the New York Subway System) only went as far as the crossunder saw the old style el
columns (I wonder why there isn't any pictures of Van Siclen station).
If you're talkng about the Jamaica line, wasn't the original Van Siclen station a side platform station? I seem to remember reading that there was originally a center turnback and layup track there.
If you're talkng about the Jamaica line, wasn't the original Van Siclen station a side platform station? I seem to remember reading that there was originally a center turnback and layup track there.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Marcy Avenue? When all the Broadway El stations (along with the portion above Fulton) were island platforms, Marcy Ave was always a side platform station with a center lay-up track, that's why it wasn't rebuilt when they rebuilt the entire Broadway Line. Although, I can't vouch that Van Sicklen wasn't also, it could have been.
Well, on this site it says that portion of el structure from Pennsylvania Ave to Van Siclen are dated back to 1885.
The Van Sicklen Ave station on the Broadway line was indeed built as two side platform stations in 1885. This can be confirmed in Alan Paul Kahn's book The Tracks of New York Number 2, which includes a track diagram of the area on pg 33. This was the last stop in those days, and there was a third track and a layup track which necessitated side platforms for the station. I do not know when the side platforms were replaced by a center platform, but I suspect it occurred around 1893, when the line was extended to Cypress Hills.
Incidently, Marcy Ave missed being rebuilt during dual contracts because it was supposed to be razed and replaced with a new station slightly west that was to be called Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. The proposal for this new station apparently fell through.
Thanks for the info, I nevr knew that about Van Sicklen.
^^^"Incidently, Marcy Ave missed being rebuilt during dual contracts because it was supposed to be razed and replaced with a new station slightly west that was to be called Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. The proposal for this new station apparently fell through."^^^
If this station was relocated to the Plaza, how would it have effected the "Trolley" lines that traversed the Willie B in the early years of the 20th Century. BRT under wire on the south inner ROW under wire to Delancey St. plus Third Avenue & New York Railways on the north inner ROW using conduit to Washington Plaza, north of the W.B. Plaza. Just a thought of what could have been.
8-) Sparky
The PSC and BRT weren't talking about razing Marcy Avenue as much as they were talking about building a new express station at the Bridge Plaza (someone has to explain why this wasn't done in the first place). They were talking about improving intermodal access, so it would be safe to say that more of a terminal would have been built downstairs.
This proposal was linked with Ashland Place, and some of the other post-Dual Contract projects that were floating around the late teens (including shifting the Fulton Street El away from its Brooklyn Bridge-bound routing). One would assume that along with all of the other proposals, it was Hylaned.
Incidently, Marcy Ave missed being rebuilt during dual contracts because it was supposed to be razed and replaced with a new station slightly west that was to be called Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. The proposal for this new station apparently fell through.
3 track/2 platform, or a 2 side platform local station?
It sounds like it was to look like Myrtle-Broadway, Wyckoff, and Eastern Parkway (BJ) stations look.
I like that last sentence.:)
Finally the train stopped at Canarsie and only stayed on the platform for a minute because I knew it was not safe there.
Huh?????
How is Canarsie unsafe?
You *should* have gotten on the bus... the one that comes right into the Subway Station, and you could have ridden that to the Canarsie Pier... Yeah, not the right time of year for piers, but I'll bet you it would have been nice.!
You get back on the bus (yeah, another fare... but the bus will take you right back into the Subway station, inside the fare control.)
See that bus it the remnant of when the subway actually extended one more stop.
Elias
See that bus it the remnant of when the subway actually extended one more stop.
Wasn't it actually 3 more stops?
I'm just as baffled....he goes to Bway Junction and then the Atlantic Ave. station and didn't have any problems (a station that is pretty much desolate) but he felt unsafe at the Rockaway Parkway terminal????
Heh, the only time Canarsie is dangerous is when your in the area. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Uh, oh! It looks like a wiseguy is amongst us...:)
PARANOIA = a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others.
>GG< or it it >LL< for this location.
8-) Sparky
Wow! I'm always learning something new whenever I visit SubTalk ;)
Double D, anybody can cut & paste from a Dictionary. But the fact of
the matter, there are paranoids amongst us. Hell, we have a Branford
Member, who sees shady characters at the Hess Station in East Haven.
Such is life, it's a b*tch, isn't it??? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Hey hey. I can't help it if I'm vulnerable and a bit paranoid. I didn't say Brooklyn was bad. I love it, I just don't want to get into a fight or get hurt.
Everyone needs to give this a rest. Subwayman was nice enough to give us a little account of his trip. Everyone really needs to give him a rest with this. This is really turning into something that it doesn't really need to go.
Thank you GP38 Chris.
Canarsie is a safe area what make you think it a bad area?
Well my parents think that most of Brooklyn is an unsafe place.
"Well my parents think that most of Brooklyn is an unsafe place."
Brooklyn...is one of a kind. Do not be afraid of it. There has never been a place like it. I'll take Brooklyn over anywhere else. There is a spirit in Brooklyn rarely felt in this world. Tell your parents that 1 out of every 7 Americans can trace part of their ancestry back to Brooklyn. Surely, such a place is worth visiting.
Hey as a matter of fact my father was born in Brooklyn. But since he moved to Massapequa in the sixties, Brooklyn has very much changed. My mom took the Brooklyn IRT to work in the late 1970's early 1980's before I was born (at a time when the subway was not a nice place at all). When I travel to parts of the subway system, I travel alone by myself (my parents can't keep up with my frequent disire to go to the city and with all these terrorist warnings and such). I love Brooklyn, I just don't feel safe.
Well you're wrong and it is kind of a dumb remark
Give the guy a break, I think he's quite young.
For him to imply Canarsie is an unsafe area is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. The crime statistics of the 69th Precinct show it is one of the safest areas in the city. I just resent listening to ignorant people.
I'm not ignorant, I just don't know the place well.
Well then, just go to Canarsie, take the bus to the pier and then walk back or something. Spend some time on the pier...!
It is a very nice neighborhood.
(I went there once, you see... : ) )
How long ago?
How long ago?
Two summers ago, though I had been there in the 60's too!
Even saw that crossing gate! Said to myself, "Self... We are out in the STICKS now!"
: ) Elias
Changing the subject slightly. If you use your Metrocard on the B42 bus heading towards the Rockaway Parkway train station, and get on the L train, can you:
1) Leave the subway, and get a transfer to another subway (I.e) IRT at Junius St. (leaving the "L" at Livonia Ave.)?
2) Leave the subway in Manhattan and free transfer to a bus? (within 2 hrs 18 minutes)
Is the Metrocard coding special on B42 due to its unique transfer to the "L" line?
Take it from someone who lived in Canarsie for a bit:
(1) Yes...with the exception being if you didn't take the B42, but originally swiped at Rockaway Parkway fare control -- or any other subway entrance -- and then wanted to transfer to the #3 at Junius (where there is no free transfer -- YET).
(2) Don't know, but would seem likely.
Transfers from the B42 are treated just like transfers from any other bus. In addition to your two examples, you can make a perfect round trip in either direction.
[Tell your parents that 1 out of every 7 Americans can trace part of their ancestry back to Brooklyn. Surely, such a place is worth visiting.]
Speaking of which, I know a fellow railfan and Shoreline Trolley Museum member who can trace his roots back to the oldest house in the state of New York -- The landmarked Peter Classen Wyckoff house in Flatlands (built in 1648!).
How is that set of R143's doing anyway? I believe they may have endured some wear and tear...
Well I saw some scratchiti on the some of the seats.
After we have some Subtallk issues (such as load imbalances on the CPW line routes in Manhattan), this plan might work.
IRT
1: 242 to SF, rush hours some trains start/end at Dyckman St. A new crew quarters will have to built at the S/B platform.
2, 3 and 4: No changes
5: Bronx Express to/from Dyre, now weekdays in the peak direction (a la 6 and 7 lines) from 6 AM to 12 Noon and from 12:30 to 9 PM. 238th St Thru train schedules remain the same.
6 & 7: No changes
IND/BMT
A: No changes
B: 145th st or BPB to 9th Ave (middays) or Bay Parkway (rush hours) only, Monday-Friday only 6 AM-11PM, skips Dekalb, local in Bronx and Manhattan, express from 34th st/6th Ave Manhattan to 36th st Brooklyn.
C: Interesting idea: on weekends, alternating C trains run every 5-6 minutes as follows. Full route OR WTC to 145th st. So every other C train goes to Brooklyn at 10-12 minute headways, while 8th Ave/CPW local service between Chambers and 145th st has 5-6 minute headways. Weekday rush hours, every other train extended to Far Rockaway.
D: 205th st to Coney Island, express in Bronx rush hours, Manhattan all times, local in Brooklyn all times.
E: No changes
F: 179th st to CI via express in Queens (also express from 71/FH to 179th st, rush hours.) and local in Manhattan (all times.) Trains marked "Coney Island" run express as F diamonds from Jay-Church (both ways) and from Church-KH (peak direction only), weekdays 6 AM to 8 PM. Additional service provided on local stops from Bergen to Ft. Hamilton by extended G service. 15 minute headways from Ave I to Ave P local stations though. Trains marked "Kings Highway", all stops in Brooklyn.
G: Extended to Church Ave weekdays. Build a new tunnel to QP to have G terminate on new lower level platform of Queens Plaza 24/7. Otherwise, same as current service plan.
J: Weekends, restore J service to Fulton Street only. Run lite to Broad st relay, keep Broad closed on weekends. Better transfers to IND A and C lines, as well as West side IRT serivce. In Brooklyn, express peak direction from Marcy to Eastern Pkway, weekdays, skips Bowery in both direction when M is running in Manhattan. J/Z skip/stop from Eastern Pkway to Supthin Blvd (see new V reroute)
M: Restore M to Brighton Line rush hours only local to CI. Other times Metropoltian to Chambers or Myrtle.
N: 57th st to CI via Sea Beach, express in Manhattan, via bridge, skips Dekalb, express in Brooklyn all times except nights.
Nights; shuttle between Pacific St and CI, express 36th st/Pacific.
Q: Astoria to Brighton Beach, weekdays 6 AM-11 PM, local in Queens, express in Manhattan (34th st-Canal only), via. bridge, express in Brooklyn via. Brighton line. For Queens use W, for Brooklyn use D.
R: No change
V: From 179th st (rush hours) or 71/FH (all other times) to Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn (until 7 PM) or 2nd Ave, Manhattan (from 7 PM to 11 PM), via 6th Ave, Essex St connection and BMT Broadway local. No weekend service. All stops from Queens to Brooklyn
W: Astoria to CI via. West End line ALL TIMES including nights, local in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens, via. Rathole.
I like your "G" train idea...much better than the 23rd/Ely transfer.
Your B Division plan is much too complicated and will only confuse the ridership. The idea is to keep things as simple as possible.
Here are the changes that should be made
B Line-Stillwell Ave to 145th Street-daily except midnight hours via West End Local,4th Ave Express,6th Ave Express,Central Park Local.
Rush Hours extended from 145th Street to Bedford Oark via Concourse Local. Midnight hours West End Shuttle between Stillwell Ave/36th Street-4th Ave
D Line-Stillwell Ave to 205th Street at all times via Brighton Local,6th Ave Express,Central Park West Express,Concourse Local-
Rush Hours Concourse Express peak direction
Midnight hours-Central Park Local
F Line-179th Street to Stillwell Ave at all times. Alternate Brooklyn trains to Kings Highway rush hours
179th Street to 21st Street-Express weekdays 6AM to 7PM,Continental Ave to 21st Street-Express at all times,
Culver Service-Express when V Line operates between Jay Street and Church Ave both directions with Stillwell Ave trains making express stops to Kings Highway peak direction only
G Line-Extend to Church Ave via local at all times. Nights weekends discontinue service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave
J/Z Line-J Line restore to Broad Street at all times. Extend service span on J/Z skip stop service
M Line-weekdays Metropolitan Ave to Chambers Street 6AM to 8PM. Extended to Bay Parkway rush hours.
There is no market for a Nassau Street midday service from Brighton,West End ,Sea Beach or 4th Ave
N Line-operates from Stillwell Ave to Ditmars Blvd at all times via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express,Broadway Express,Astoria Loca.
Midnight hours via local and Manhattan Bridge
Q Line-operates between Brighton Beach and 57th St/7th Ave weekdays 6AM to 10PM,weekends 8AM to 9PM via Brighton Express,Broadway Express
R Line-24 hour service between 95th St and Continental Ave
V Line-weekdays 6AM to 12AM between Continental Ave and Church Ave via Queens Blvd Local,6th Ave Local,Culver Local.Extended from Continental Ave to 179th Street weekdays 6AM to 7PM
W Line-weekdays between 6AM and 8PM between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street via Broadway Local
I use to work in Operations Planning and i know what the TA is looking for. This plan fits the TA needs
Thank You
Additional B Division changes
A Line-All service between 207th Street and Far Roackaway at all times.
C Line-Extend from Euclid Ave to Leffets Blvd. Late night shuttle train between Euclid Ave and Leffets
Division A routes
1/9 Line_ Midday 9 trains operate between South Ferry and 137th Street
2,3,4,6,and 7 lines-No changes
5 Line-Agree with your change.
Thank You
(A Line-All service between 207th Street and Far Roackaway at all times.
C Line-Extend from Euclid Ave to Leffets Blvd. Late night shuttle train between Euclid Ave and Leffets)
That certainly won't please everyone.
1. The Lefferts spur has almost as many riders as the Far Rockaway Line.
2. NYCT uses the Lefferts destination as a way to short turn A trains. Sending all As to Far Rock, and then having to extend the C as well, costs a lot more money.
On the other hand, JFK could use more than the current 4 tph once AirTrain opens, so it has some merits. NYCT may do what you suggest, but short turn half the As at Howard beach.
I have a feeling Lefferts ridership will see the big boost when AirTrain opens. The Q10 is a free transfer.
(I have a feeling Lefferts ridership will see the big boost when AirTrain opens. The Q10 is a free transfer.)
Can you explain why ridership would increase? The Q10 option is already available. Also, the trouble with the Q10 is that (a) only half or so of Q10s actually go to the airport and (b) airport traffic makes it unreliable and slow.
The free Q10 option already exists, but so does the free shuttle bus option, which is faster (especially if a Rockaway-bound A train shows up first).
Once AirTrain opens, the free shuttle bus will be no more. Anyone looking for a cheap ride to the airport will use the Q10. The Howard Beach transfer will have a very narrow market: it won't include those who want to spend as little as possible, but it also won't include those coming from Manhattan who are willing to spend extra on LIRR and or who are nervous about taking the A train across Brooklyn.
M Line-weekdays Metropolitan Ave to Chambers Street 6AM to 8PM. Extended to Bay Parkway rush hours.
There is no market for a Nassau Street midday service from Brighton,West End ,Sea Beach or 4th Ave
The R alone is insufficent for Montague St. service to Court and Lawrence Sts. Thats why I've maintained the current all day M service, to ease the loss of the N to the bridge.
"to ease the loss of the N to the bridge." Yes, let's ease that loss as long as the Sea Beach goes on the bridge. That's the key. The M could combine with the R to enjoy the wonders of the Montague rathole while my train gets a breath of fresh air viewing the Manhattan and Brooklyn skyline as she makes the beginning of her great comeback.
M Line-weekdays Metropolitan Ave to Chambers Street 6AM to 8PM. Extended to Bay Parkway rush hours.
There is no market for a Nassau Street midday service from Brighton,West End ,Sea Beach or 4th Ave
The R alone is insufficent for Montague St. service to Court and Lawrence Sts. Thats why I've maintained the current all day M service, to ease the loss of the N to the bridge.
In my plan, it's really simple, the W has one service pattern (through Montague Rat-nel) and up to Astoria 24/7, complementing R service in lower Manhattan. The N runs via. bridge all times except nights via. bridge. There is no confusion as to which way the W runs depending on time of day (tunnel or bridge), as in the case of the current service pattern which is no other alternative at this point.
Chris,
For over 20 years there was one Broadway Local service through the tunnel between Whitehall Street and De Kalb. During the same period weekdays there was an additional Nassau Street local.
In 1986 there were 2 Broadway services and what happened. It killed the Nassau Street service.
Facts are Facts
Thank You
In 1986 there were 2 Broadway services and what happened. It killed the Nassau Street service.
There has to be 2 weekday trains through Montague St. If you shift the N to the bridge, it has to be the M. Once the downtown transit hub is complete the M will serve a more useful purpose.
(There has to be 2 weekday trains through Montague St.)
Why, outside of rush hour?
There are only 8 midday tph through the Rutgers tunnel because the demand isn't there for more.
There's higher demand between Whitehall St and points north than between Dekalb and Whitehall. So why put in excess capacity in the Montague tunnel? There's probably less demand there than at the stations on either side of the Rutgers tunnel.
Why, outside of rush hour?
Metrotech, Boro Hall. Remember those? The 2 stations in Brooklyn need 2 trains servicing them. This is not a debatable subject.
Metrotech, Boro Hall. Remember those? The 2 stations in Brooklyn need 2 trains servicing them.
Namely the A, C, 2, 3, 4 and 5 trains. These two six trains are as much trains to Metrotech and Boro Hall as anything in the rathole.
Check the turnstile numbers from Lawrence St. You want only 6 TPH serving that station during the week? The tunnel route has ALWAYS had at least 2 routes all day long.
(The tunnel route has ALWAYS had at least 2 routes all day long.)
Not so sure about that. Look at the 1978 map on this site (the most recent map on which both sides of the bridge are healthy). The Montague has the M and the RR.
I somehow doubt the M ran south of Broad St. all day, rather than just during rush hours.
Unless I'm wrong, this would probably mean a single tunnel route middays from 1967 until the MB started to get sick.
somehow doubt the M ran south of Broad St. all day, rather than just during rush hours
Yes it did, all day long. At that time it was the Brighton local. At the minimum there was always 2 tunnel routes all day long. Before 1967 there were three, like today.
OK, if you know it for sure, I'll certainly believe you. The tenor of many subtalk postings has been that running the M south of Broad in non-rush hours is an anomaly, but that won't be the first time most people have the facts wrong.
>>>... but that won't be the first time most people have the facts wrong. <<<
...and, It won't be the last. I gaurentee it.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, if you know it for sure, I'll certainly believe you. The tenor of many subtalk postings has been that running the M south of Broad in non-rush hours is an anomaly, but that won't be the first time most people have the facts wrong
Actually cutting the service back to Chambers St is the anomaly. From 1973 to 1995 the M ran thru Dekalb all day long. During the 1995 summertime GO which closed the Manhattan bridge completely during the daytimes the M was cut back. When the GO ended, the TA realized they could get away with not restoring the service. And with the N running thru the tunnel, they could. Without the N, the M is needed.
Before 1967 there were three, like today.
Not all full time. The QT ran when the QB didn't, so, given that there were QBs, there must have been times when the QT didn't run.
Not all full time.
No, but all day long during the week, You had the Brighton local(QT), 4th Ave local(RR) and some sort of Nassau St line (via West End and/or Culver before 1959).
I was trying to point out that you don't have to cram yourself into Lawrence St station like lemmings: there are other lines.
* RE-OPEN MYRTLE/FLATBUSH!!! * ;-)
2,071,504 in 2000, rank 181, well below many other stations with only 6 tph middays.
The A/C/F stops one block away and the 2/3 stops two blocks away. The area is hardly underserved.
You always advocate more transit service. You're now advocating that the R alone is sufficient for midday service along Montague St?
HA.
I'm not advocating anything. I'm just putting the facts on the table.
Personally, I think that the Nassau-Montague connection is useful enough to be in operation even weekends -- but not because Lawrence is a terribly busy station.
And I don't always advocate more transit service. I advocate what I think makes sense -- sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes about the same but in a different configuration.
Fair enough. I'm firmly in the belief that the M should augment the R all day long if the N is to be returned to the bridge.
Check the turnstile numbers from Lawrence St. You want only 6 TPH serving that station during the week? The tunnel route has ALWAYS had at least 2 routes all day long.
I am a staunch supporter of keeping the M in the tunnel, however my former actions wouldn't lead anyone to think so.
When I first started college, I started at City Tech on Jay Street for two years. My home station was an M line station in Queens. For the first two weeks or so I traveled on the M direct, over the WillyB, through the Montague, and got off at Lawrence street (this was pre-MetroTech). I was miserable. It seemed to take forever, through terribly depressing stations (Lawrence St leads the pact). I later decided to try getting off at Essex, and pick up the F at Delancey to Jay St-Borough Hall. I did that for the remainder of my two years. I couldn't be happier - I saved at least 10 minutes off of the direct M route, even considering the wait between trains when switching, loved using Boro Hall station, and the Essex/Delancy transfer is fast and easy. (The only thing that could have been better was if the Myrtle El still went direct).
So in summary, life would go on if the M didn't go through, because I feel most of the other ways through there are superior. The M does do it's purpose though, and is far from useless. But, if it must be cut back, IT BETTER GO AT LEAST TO BROAD STREET!!!! None of this Chambers nonsense.
(But, if it must be cut back, IT BETTER GO AT LEAST TO BROAD STREET!!!! None of this Chambers nonsense.)
Agreed. It's really unfair to M riders if they can't even get good connections to all the lines. Fulton provides lots of good connections that Essex, Canal, and Chambers don't.
M Line-weekdays Metropolitan Ave to Chambers Street 6AM to 8PM. Extended to Bay Parkway rush hours.
There is no market for a Nassau Street midday service from Brighton,West End ,Sea Beach or 4th Ave
I can't agree with that. It is very bad for M riders when they terminate it at Chambers Street. This cuts them off from the Fulton street Complex, and the only connection they have to the West Side IRT or the 8th Avenue Line. It's bad enough they have to endure that on the Weekends, they shouldn't have to go through that all day during the week also. While I still feel there should be some day Nassau montague service, if it must be cut off, the M should AT LEAST go to Broad Street. I've dealt with that nonsense enough on the weekends (where it's annoying, but tolerable), but in the late 90's when they did that weekdays, riding the M went from an average pleasant line to the ride from hell.
The M COULD go to Broad St. during the midday hours. J/M service at this time runs at an identical headway as J/Z service during rush hours.
The reason your plan will not work is as follows
1-There has been little need for a Brighton Line to Nassau Street service. Since 1986 when the M Line was rerouted there has been little complaints about a lack of a Nassau Street service
2-West End service must be a 6th Ave service because Sea Beach and 4th Ave are Broadwy services. Thats why the Chrystie Street connection was built and was successful. Your plan destroys it and has too much duplicate service
3-There should be a 24 hour service between 6th Ave and Central Park West service because there is a need for it. The TA should make the D line make local stops now. Its only a minor change and you do not need a pick for it.
4-A Broadway to Queens Blvd Local service will be a greater use than a Crosstown/Queens Blvd service midnight hours. Its a simple cross over at Queens Plaza
Any questions or comments
'Thank You
The reason your plan will not work is as follows
1-There has been little need for a Brighton Line to Nassau Street service. Since 1986 when the M Line was rerouted there has been little complaints about a lack of a Nassau Street service
2-West End service must be a 6th Ave service because Sea Beach and 4th Ave are Broadwy services. Thats why the Chrystie Street connection was built and was successful. Your plan destroys it and has too much duplicate service
3-There should be a 24 hour service between 6th Ave and Central Park West service because there is a need for it. The TA should make the D line make local stops now. Its only a minor change and you do not need a pick for it.
4-A Broadway to Queens Blvd Local service will be a greater use than a Crosstown/Queens Blvd service midnight hours. Its a simple cross over at Queens Plaza
Any questions or comments
'Thank You
It passes muster with me. Time to put your plan in operation.
My plan will be as follows:
1, 2, 3 and 4: no changes
5: normal service, but diamond 5 renumbered 10 to avoid confusion
6: normal service, but diamond 6 renumbered 8 to avoid confusion
7: normal service, but diamond 7 renumbered 11 to avoid confusion
8: Current Pelham Express
10: Current White Plains 5 line
11: Flushing Express
A, C, E, J/Z and L: no changes
B: As it was before July 2001-2004
D: As it was before July 2001-2004
F: Express 179th St to 21st St/Queensbridge, and from Jay Street to
Church Avenue whenever the V is running.
G: Extended to Church Avenue all times.
M: Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers Street weekdays 9am-3pm and to Bay Parkway rush hours.
N: Astoria to Coney Island. Express 34th St/Bway to 59th St/4th Av via Manhattan Bridge (skips DeKalb) weekdays 6am to 8pm. Evenings, nights and Weekends, express 34th St/Bway to DeKalb Avenue via Manhattan Bridge. Local in Brooklyn.
Q: 57th St/7th Av to Brighton Beach weekdays 6am to 9pm.
R: Normal service 6am to 12midnight. 57th St/7th Av to 95th St/4th Av 12midnight to 6am daily.
V: 179th St/ Jamaica to Church Avenue Weekdays 6am to 8pm. Forest Hills to Church Av evenings. (V service cannot run on the Eastern Division, because sharp curves prohibit 75-foot cars on Eastern Division.)
W: Astoria to Coney Island via Broadway Local, Montague Street Tunnel and Brighton Local all times. (Replaces the N between Astoria and DeKalb Avenue via Montague Street Tunnel.)
Mr. NY, not a bad plan at all. In fact, I like it for reasons you can probably ascertain. Now if we can just get you a position with the heirarchy on the TA we'd all be home free.
What about the 9?
1/9, 2, 3 and 4: no changes
5: normal service, but diamond 5 renumbered 10 to avoid confusion
6: normal service, but diamond 6 renumbered 8 to avoid confusion
7: normal service, but diamond 7 renumbered 11 to avoid confusion
8: Current Pelham Express
10: Current White Plains 5 line
11: Flushing Express
A, C, J/Z and L: no changes
B: As it was before July 2001-2004
D: As it was before July 2001-2004
E: Normal service, except supplemental rush hour service to/from 179th St will be discontinued, with the restoration of F weekday express service between 179th St and Forest Hills and extended V service.
F: Express 179th St to 21st St/Queensbridge, and from Jay Street to
Church Avenue whenever the V is running. Express Forest Hills to 21st St/Queensbridge only, local in Manhattan and Brooklyn, whenever the V is not running.
G: Extended to Church Avenue all times.
M: Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers Street weekdays 9am-3pm and to Bay Parkway rush hours.
N: Astoria to Coney Island. Express 34th St/Bway to 59th St/4th Av via Manhattan Bridge (skips DeKalb) weekdays 6am to 8pm. Evenings, nights and Weekends, express 57th St/7th Av to DeKalb Avenue via Manhattan Bridge. Local in Brooklyn. Late night service operates between 57th St/7th Av and Coney Island.
Q: 57th St/7th Av to Brighton Beach weekdays 6am to 9pm.
R: Normal service 6am to 12midnight. 57th St/7th Av to 95th St/4th Av 12midnight to 6am daily.
V: 179th St/ Jamaica to Church Avenue Weekdays 6am to 8pm. Forest Hills to Church Av evenings. (V service cannot run on the Eastern Division, because sharp curves prohibit 75-foot cars on Eastern Division.)
W: Astoria to Coney Island via Broadway Local, Montague Street Tunnel and Brighton Local all times. (Replaces the N between Astoria and DeKalb Avenue via Montague Street Tunnel.)
This plan is good with the following exceptions:
A-should run to Far Rockaway at all times;Rush hrs additional service to Rockaway Park.
C-Extended to Lefferts Blvd(6a-12midnight)Shuttle Euclid-Lefferts(12midnight-6am)
J/Z- J-Bay Pkwy rush hrs,Broad Street all other times except weekends
Z-Chambers Street-Rush Hrs only
M - to Broad Street rush hrs,Chambers Street all other times except nights and weekends
V-179th Street/Jamaica -Rockaway Pkwy/Brooklyn(via Chrystie Street connector and ENY flyover) Rush Hrs only /179th Street/Jamaica-2nd Avenue(middays and evenings)Return 75'foot R-46's back to the E line and use 8 car R32's from JAM and R40M/R42's from ENY for V service.
Your F and G stays the same except w/o the V service
Also one more detail with my plan
J/Z exp Bdwy Jct-Marcy
V local Bdwy Jct -Marcy
I think you're trying to tackle two issues here. 2004 (post Manny B and Stilwell completion) and other major adjustments.
So let's do these one by one:
2004
C: Interesting idea: on weekends, alternating C trains run every 5-6 minutes as follows. Full route OR WTC to 145th st.
Nice idea. Shame terminating trains on the Upper Level of 145th St is a little difficult. You could solve this, however, by swapping the Northern Terminals of the B and C trains.
What could be easier on crews would be C BPB-WTC and H 145-Euclid.
I don't see quite what it has to do with 2004, but it's a nice idea and could easily be done at that time.
F: 179th st to CI via express in Queens (also express from 71/FH to 179th st, rush hours.) and local in Manhattan (all times.) Trains marked "Coney Island" run express as F diamonds from Jay-Church (both ways) and from Church-KH (peak direction only), weekdays 6 AM to 8 PM. Additional service provided on local stops from Bergen to Ft. Hamilton by extended G service. 15 minute headways from Ave I to Ave P local stations though. Trains marked "Kings Highway", all stops in Brooklyn.
I know you like Express service, but on 15 minute headways it's a bit silly. I think you'd hurt more people than you help. Oh and Bergen Interlocking would have to be fixed first. You'd have a better chance justifying weekend expresses on the Brighton or West End express.
J: Weekends, restore J service to Fulton Street only. Run lite to Broad st relay, keep Broad closed on weekends.
I think the point of that line being closed is so they can close the tower that works exactly the interlocking you'd use to relay those trains...
M: Restore M to Brighton Line rush hours only local to CI. Other times Metropoltian to Chambers or Myrtle.
As the M is the only Nassau St service on the Southern Division, easier transfers for more people are possible by sending it down 4th Avenue.
Other comments on 2004:
- I like your Jamaica Line solution! That express would be very useful! I don't know about skipping Bowery though.
- Your B/N/W seems to require a lot of trains for not much point - the N deadends 5 stops into Manhattan and the B deadends 3 stops into Brooklyn. You should either zap the N and run the B on the Sea Beach with the Nighttime shuttle, or you should make your W an N (putting it on the Sea Beach Line) and make the B the main West End service, with the Nighttime shuttle.
More Ambitious Stuff
1: 242 to SF, rush hours some trains start/end at Dyckman St. A new crew quarters will have to built at the S/B platform.
137th would probably be better as it's the point the numbers really drop off from. My ideal solution at 137th would be to create an extra track behind the Eastern Wall of the station, turning the Northbound platform into an island platform, then using the existing track to unload trains about to relay North of the station (thus avoiding delays).
Build a new tunnel to QP to have G terminate on new lower level platform of Queens Plaza 24/7.
If we're burrowing under LIC, stopping at Queens Plaza would be a wimpish decision - it should be plugged into the 63rd St tunnel just East of 21st St Queensbridge, so the G train can go to Manhattan.
(If we're burrowing under LIC, stopping at Queens Plaza would be a wimpish decision - it should be plugged into the 63rd St tunnel just East of 21st St Queensbridge, so the G train can go to Manhattan.)
Then reconfigure the locals south of W 4th so it can run straight downtown on 6th Ave to the Cranberry tunnel, and connect the G to the A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and NYC can have its own Circle Line.
and NYC can have its own Circle Line.
And it would come about as frequently as the London one. ;-)
Another bizzare (and even more confusing) possibility would be: (G) Church Av - Crosstown - 21/Queensbridge - 6th Av Lcl - Culver - CI
Ahhhhh, made you look......
Well I thought it was a cool photo. It's a long time since I've seen the R30's on the Broadway El. Alot has changed - the Jamaica El still went to Queens Blvd.
Even I have to admit, that's a good picture. They look much better in the B-division size. But I bet they were rough to ride in the summer.
Technically that's not on the Williamsburg. It's already over Broadway!
Did redbird-painted R30's ever go to Queens Blvd/Jamaica Ave? I thought that station was closed before the R30 GOH.
:-) Andrew
That's a good question, I don't remember. The red J's and M's started coming around the Eastern Division around 1985, give or take a year. Although I believe some of the R30 rollsigns didn't have 121st Street on it's rollsigns, and they showed Queens Blvd, even after Metro and QB closed.
I have another Question: Did the R30's ever travel to Jamaica Center, or did the J only have it's Rebuilt R40M-42's? I went there many times in the late 80's and early 90's after Archer opened in 1988, but I can't remember if that was ever on an R30.
They did. I rode on one the day the extension opened.
Thanks, then I must've too, because I rode there quite often around 1989-1991. I didn't pay attention too much to the class of cars back then, I was sort of a railfan already, but had no idea that the R30's were leaving, so I didn't make note of it.
Yes, the redbirds did run on the J to Jamaica Center in the very beginning. I rode one on the first Sunday out of JC. They disappeared quickly, gone completely by March/April 1989.
No. The line was truncated in 4/85. Redbird R30's didn't appear until that autumn.
"Did redbird-painted R30's ever go to Queens Blvd/Jamaica Ave? I thought that station was closed before the R30 GOH."
I"ve seen a picture of an R-30 (Z) train at Jamaica Center ! And that was a rare occurance.
Bill "Newkirk"
Do you have a copy of the photo that you can post?
(I am obsessed with the R30GOH)
"Do you have a copy of the photo that you can post?
(I am obsessed with the R30GOH)"
Sorry, I don't have the picture. I saw it at a slide show.
Bill "Newkirk"
do you have any of the R30 GOH on the L?
"do you have any of the R30 GOH on the L?"
Probably not, just the silver/blue ones.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill! Details.....link? I'd love to see that!
Do you have that photo of that R30 "Z" train?
what is the website that that pic is on?
No other R30's right now, just This One.
What a beatiful picture. Being the shameful railfan I am, I've never done a good ride on the Williamsburg yet. Any idea what the building with the rounded top is?
That used to be the Williamsburg Savings Bank. Now I believe it's HSBC. It's a Williamsburg Landmark.
What I loved about the J line at that time was that it's northern terminal signage was always wrong. When trains terminated at Queens Blvd the signs always said 168th St. When the new signage for Queens Blvd. became availabe, the line was cut back to 121st St. By the time 121st St signs became available, the line was extended to Jamaica Center. So despite what that picture suggests, that J train terminated at 121st, not Queens Blvd.
I rode on a few J trains in March of 1978, by which time the line had been cut back to Queens Blvd. The side signs on the R-27/30s were still set to 168th St., but the bulkhead sign on the north end was cranked all the way to the end.
Ah, the Redbirds on the (M) and (J). The thing is, I can barely remember them. Here's what do remember, when my father took me on the (M) train, I remember the lights flickering on & off(just like the 7 line) as it arrived at Essex St. Riding it over the Willy B. was sweet. Thanks for making me dig up some of my old memories. :)
Those must have been the repainted R27's. The R30 overhauls had the batteries installed which prevented the lights from going out when contact with the third rail was lost. Some J/M/L "redbirds" were not necessarily overhauled.
Correct, many "red" trains on the JML were just painted red to remove the graffiti, there were no alterations other than paint on the inside on some of them.
I wonder if anyone knows the car #'s of the cars which were overhauled as opposed to those just painted. I was surprised to see in the car roster page a picture of a merely repainted R27 on the C train in 1989. I thought all R27's were scrapped by then.
The GE R30's were the one which were overhauled: 8250 to 8411.
Only 160? Must've been more repainted R27's than I thought.
Here's what do remember, when my father took me on the (M) train, I remember the lights flickering on & off(just like the 7 line) as it arrived at Essex St.
I remember my first semester at college, and it was a hot September, the sound on the Williamsburg Bridge on the R27-30's (many still grafittied, although many were red), with and the hot air blowing around. that was another spot were the sound was just great with all the windows and doors open, and you would hear the cars go by making a screeching noise over the metal roadway. And the lights! Yup, even the on the L, I remember that. I used to love when the lights would flicker underground. They would flicker, and you'd get blinded by the sparking of the third rail, just before they went back on.
Anybody have pics of the GOH 30s on the L?
I was expecting something a little narrower
Mind the gap!
(Hey, shouldn't this 5 train be on the other side of that wall?)
Hehehe, smart a**es. I know, I asked for it.....
Seriously though, it's sadly been a while since they were on the other side of that wall, oh well, the 6 will never be the same....
BTW, is that the "project manager" for the excursion at the handles?
>GG< oops, >JJ<.
8-) Sparky
By 2012, half of the division B fleet will be filled with cars made in.....France. Ugh.
Please, that's not a scary thought, that's a NIGHTMARE!
I'd say let's wait ... if I pull on a handle and get Chablis, I wouldn't be complaining. :)
Not much of a surprise to me. A lot of things we take for granted today are more than often, foreign made.
I can deal with foreign. But French? It'll be a tough pill to swallow.
Oh come on, you dealt with having that huge French Statue in your harbor.
Heh. I was *wondering* when someone would bring that little thing up. BRAVO! Let's TRASH it! Or at least put a blue curtain around it. :)
It's an American icon. And the return shipping cost would be astronomical.
That still doesn't ignore thr fact it's FRENCH. If you want, I'll buy you some Freedom Fries sometime... my treat. :)
Dealing with that would be relatively easy.
What's to be done with the whole French Quarter of New Orleans and its inhabitants?
-Robert King
What's to be done with the whole French Quarter of New Orleans and its inhabitants?
Ahhh, send them to Bourbon Street. After about an hour or so they won't know where they are anyway.
Even MORE amusing is how this "Freedom Fries" nonsense is going to put mostly AMERICANS out of work. BMW's are made in the US, as are many other things we're planning to boycott. "French Fries" and "French Toast" do NOT come from France. Morons. :(
It's an amusing sideshow. I'd advocating boycotting French goods. If only we could tear up that Alstom contract.
That's OK ... Bombardier will have a decent piece of it, and them's French CANADIENS. :)
But reality is that since Reagan, we've all become internationally intertwined in that GATT/NAFTA type "global economy" ... smite any of our "trading partners" and we're only cutting off our own noses. "Old Europe" has seen what we're about to embark on before, and it DOES make them twitchy. I won't go into the details and the historics of it all though, since this would only result in THIS thread dying. And I'm not going to keep putting effort into threads that were doomed to die. Suffice it to say that this WHOLE thing is just self-destruction at its worst. For everyone boycotting France, there's another who is going out of their way to BUY French. And since "Hamburgers" are another American creation with an exotic name "Hamburg, Germany" (another back-stabber) then we're going to have to give those up as well. Maybe we can call them "Bilderburgers" and really get the right into an absolute tizzy. Or we can eat Bisonburgers and make the left ill. :)
>>>... and the historics of it all though,<<<
Ummm, don't you mean, HYSTERIONICS?
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. One man's hysterectomy is another man's dogma. :)
I figured I could get away with that one since more than one politician has defeated their opponent by calling them a "Thespian and Homo Sapiens besides" ... Mencken was right. :(
>>> Or we can eat Bisonburgers and make the left ill. <<<
You cannot call them Bison burgers, as that would be misleading. There are already Bison burgers made with buffalo meat being sold in Los Angeles. Now let me get back to cooking the victory cabbage for my Frankf hot dog.
Tom
Heh. Rest assured, that in upstate New York, the Bisonburgers ARE made of Bison, and nothing else. Yum. When you live north of Yonkers up here in Canada, you're required to be a member of PeTA (People eating Tasty Animals) :)
didja know that the WWIIPC name for a 2-8-2 steam locomotive was Mac Arthur
Heh. Sorry I missed that ... even more humorous how it turned out with the Mikaido being the hottest thing on Broadway right after the war. I suppose there's something fundamentally wrong with my upbringing - I was always taught that only the COMMUNISTS did brainwashing and propaganda. Ah well ... I'll have to cuddle up with some Orwell and get with it. :)
And since "Hamburgers" are another American creation with an exotic name "Hamburg, Germany"
Get away... I thought it was Hamburg, Erie, NY or Hamburg, Ashley, AR or Hamburg, Siskiyou, CA or maybe even Hamburg, New London, CT or even Hamburg, Fremont, IA or Hamburg, Calhoun, IL, or perhaps Hamburg, Carver, MN.
You can check all those on Mapquest.
What I'm saying is you guys have enough Hamburgs of your own to claim that hamburgers are from one of them. Indeed, in Belgium, a hamburger is called "un americain", although they are usually served raw and no American would touch them!
(grin) ... no chit. The legless mooer ("ground beef") was actually sold as something exotic ("Germany") and although it had Tartar history to it, the modern "Wimpy" (oh how Brits DESPISED that chain) actually originated thusly:
International Recipes OnLine: Food and Wine Dictionary: hamburger
I figure folks can check it out, this is subtalk after all, not "foodtalk" or "baseballtalk" ... so let's get the "krauts," we'll have mustard and onion on our street dogs so we can each prove we're more "American" than the next schlump. Geez. :(
Tear down the Statue of Liberty! Woohoo! Fetchez la vache!
You'd be surprised how often any given topic turns toward food around here.:)
So I take it reverse moves will be protected by WHITE flags? :)
LOL
Afraid of a weekend G.O. Mr.160?
Certainement! J'ai la clef renversée magique.
Who cares? The last time around, you lot were howling about how the Japanese and Canadians were building subway cars.
Nothing is going to change here: Alstom are going to have to build them somewhere in New York state to meet that requirement. Since Bombardier's already picked off a former air force base and Kawasaki's taken an elevator factory, I'd suspect Alstom's going to grab either an abandoned ship yard or army base and produce results comprable to the early 142 and R142A cars since the 160 is going to be that company's first run at building MTA subway cars.
Another thing that won't change is that there's going to be strings of whining posts on Subtalk about it.
Get over it. I know it's a scary thought for some people, but there is a whole world out there beyond the United States.
-Robert King
Even if those cars are built in upstate New York, most Americans KNOW that anything north of Yonkers is CANADA anyway, therefore as a citizen of the Great White North (southern division) I feel compelled to come to your assistance ... Don't shoot me...i'm just the messenger.
On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry.
I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron.
He is a moron but, it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.
I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.
I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.
I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice you've rebuilt it! It's Very Nice.
I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we Feel your Pain. If it's any consolation, we have Labatts.
I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.
And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. We've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.
Thank you.
(I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.)
Take a trip to British Columbia some time and drive a logging road out into the woods. The damage BC is doing to the environment there in pursuit of the almighty (Canadian) dollar is horrendous. It makes the US Forest Service under W look like a most enlightened institution. In many cases they are logging spectacular old growth forests in magnificant mountain settings (more impressive than anything we have outside Alaska) right up to the tree line. BC subsidizes their lumber industry up the kazoo through their permission for environmentally unsound logging.
And to get back on topic, they seem to be trying to follow the US in reducing passenger train service. You can't even take a train cross country any more.
Agreed ... that all goes back to Mulroney, their "Reagan" ... but yes, absolutely true. By the way, only threw that in here for the purpose of a little "perspective" ... I'm just a bit disappointed in what the collective "we" are doing lately ...
I certainly wouldn't claim the US does everything right. It's just that you picked the one thing that I'm really really mad at Canada (specifically the provincial government of British Columbia) about.
Understood ... and yes, I've seen it. Then again, all our coal plants have done tremendous damage to eastern Canada as well as upstate. We only have ONE planet, and dividing ourselves up further doesn't help.
They would probably use the old MK plant in Hornell, NY, where some WMATA cars were built recently.
Perhaps we they will be the model R-COWARD. If a crime is commited on these trains, they will tuck an electronic tail between their wheels and speed away, leaving the passengers stranded. The French built signal system could also get brighter during a terrorist attack, to help the terrorists see better.
>>> Perhaps we they will be the model R-COWARD <<<
Why all the French bashing? Perhaps they just can't understand the American desire to start a war. Is it possible that they, or the English, German or Russian people do not know what it is like to have one of their buildings destroyed and 3,000 of their civilians killed? Or is it just a character flaw that makes them not wish to see death and destruction rained down on the civilians of another country?
Tom
Is it possible that they, or the English, German or Russian people do not know what it is like to have one of their buildings destroyed and 3,000 of their civilians killed?
Remember Coventry and Dresden before you start talking crap like that. We know what it's like to have our cities blown to pieces by people with silly hats and then rebuilt by the worst terrorists of all: urban planners. No-one wants a war precisely because we got our cities blown to bits in the last war whereas you never learnt because the only time you got bombed was on Hawaii.
We know all too well what blown to pieces looks like around where Church St, Vesey, and West meet.
As horrific as it was, it doesn't quite compare to a hole on nearly every block. Such was the recent history of most of "Old Europe" as Rummy calls it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't deter an even more serious risk to the planet and stand down necessarily, but it does help if people understood *WHY* so many other nations want to do their very best to try to avoid the need.
And frankly, I just don't get why we're bashing our allies the way we do - it's even MORE destructive than Saddam could possibly be - we've SO cheesed off everybody else that Britain is our last remaining "friend" and Rummy went and cheesed THEM off too. If Blair is subject to a vote of no confidence and removed, we'll have no friends left at ALL. This whole thing is doing FAR more damage in the long run than the terrorists could have POSSIBLY imagined. We're doing EVERYTHING that they wanted. :(
As horrific as it was, it doesn't quite compare to a hole on nearly every block. Such was the recent history of most of "Old Europe" as Rummy calls it.
I know, as bad as it was, it doesn't really compare.
My mother knows all too well what it was like. She lived in occupied Holland during the WWII. She watched as enemy soldiers barged into their home and tried to take her father (who was hiding in the walls, along with her older brother). I guess they were looking for any males of age. They then shot and knifed into all the walls. By the grace of God, both her father and brother survived this. They then burned their barn down. She lived in a small town, and that was totally destroyed by both the Germans and the Allies. If this was just in a little town, I can only imagine what happened in the cities.
I've heard similar stories from immigrants of other nations as well. When your national "memory" is chock full of things like that, you're not in as big a hurry as those nations that haven't suffered such. As much as we might want Saddam in a pine box immediately, we can't do it alone. I've sensed no absolute resistance to this, what I perceive from our "errant allies" (?) is simply that they want all the i's dotted and the t's crossed and a certainty that there really isn't any other way to accomplish the desired goals.
Truly sad though that our leaders are going out of their WAY to ensure that we'll have NO allies and no help paying the bills when all is said and done. I just don't get THIS part. The damage we're doing will last LONG past the 2004 elections and will take DECADES to fix. :(
>>> Remember Coventry and Dresden before you start talking crap like that <<<
You need to get your sarcasm detector calibrated. :-)
Tom
There has been many posts on what the TA should do when the Manhattan Bridge and Stillwell Avenue construction projects are complete in 2004. However many plans fail to use the established guidelines when coming up with them. Here is what one should consider when making proposed service changes
1-Service should be consistent when ever possible. Each route should have at least one A terminal and 1 B terminal. In some cases because of Rush Hour needs and midnight hour needs a line can have more than one major terminal.
ie B Line-145th Street(weekdaays),Bedford Park Blvd(rush hours) and 36th Street/4th Ave(midnight hours). This is OK
What should not be is to have a 24 hour train have 3 differnt terminals like the #4 use to have
Flatbuhs Ave(rush hours and midnights),Utica Ave(evenings and weekends) and Atlantic Ave (middays)
2-Each division has main trunk lines and feeder lines. Some of the feeder lines have sub feeder lines
A Division- Trunk lines- Broadway/7th Ave, Lexington Ave, Flushing
Feeder lines- Broadway,Lenox Ave,White Plains Rd,Jerome Ave and Pelham Bay Park
B Division- Trunk lines- Broadway,14th Street,Nassau Street,8th Ave,6th Ave,Crosstown
Feeder lines-4th Ave with sub feeds-Sea Beach and West End,Brighton,Culver,Fulton Street,Queens Blvd with sub feed Archer Ave,Myrtle Ave
Also some trunk lines have no feeder lines-Flushing,14th Street
You should have no more than one feeder line into a trunk line
ie-6th Avenue has 4th Ave/West End and Broadwy has 4th Ave and 4th Ave /Sea Beach
3-Remember some lines are at capacity such as Queens Blvd and Lexington Ave. If you put a new line in one has to come out especially on the express services
4-Car usage. Remember 75 feet cars can not be used on the Division B Eastern Division at all.
When making proposals try to use these guidelines
Thank You
It's nice to know that when Mayor Bloomberg distances himself when we at the mercy of the NYC Transit strike last year, and doesn't want to get involved; yet he plays a major role in the settlement of Broadway play musicians.
Something wrong with this picture? Doesn't public transportation play a MAJOR role in the city's economy? Why was it so important to the Mayor to end the Broadway shows strike, but he doesn't care whether TWU Local 100 workers go on strike or not?
He could play the role of the benevolent mediator in the musicians strike, During the transit strike, he was an active participant on the side of management. What did you want him to do, crush your union?
For one, The mayor has little power over the MTA. Who is to say he was not prodding in the back end for a settlement.
As with the Broadway Musicians strike. All he did was get a mediator involved and lock them into a room. Broadway is bringing in $12 a week in tax revenue. Most of that money is spent by out of towners.
The MTA was already negotiating in negotiations with the TWU.
Just so's ya know - the influence of the New York City Mayor on the MTA is virtually NON-EXISTENT. A more reasonable question might have been "where was Paturkey?" MTA's HIS bailiwick. I can understand folks ain't happy with Bloomy, but the MTA mess was not his to deal with. The subways were taken away from city control when the MTA replaced the NYCTA, placing the subways under STATE control.
So where WAS Paturkey? Fund raising.
Paturkey controls the MTA board with his puppet strings (except for the Mayor's two appointees). Paturkey tell them to walk left, they walk left, he tells them to vote for a $5 fare hike, they will raise their hands up for the hike at the next MTA baord meeting.
And so what has the mayor to do with a musicians union.
Actually as mayor, it is easier for him to intervene with the musicians, since he is a party to neither side, much more difficult for him to take a stand on the MTA where he does have a vestied (albeit somewhat limited and convoluted) interest.
Elias
Keeping the Broadway theatres running (or at least being SEEN being involved) is a direct in New York City's own interests (tourism) ... but in the end, he has no more authority over Local 802 than Local 100. Then again, the Broadway Theatre owners aren't a political organization either, so he had little to lose. Paturkey would have crushed the boy like a grape though if he got between the MTA and the TWU, and there is a difference there.
But you're right ...
Not to mention the fact that the Broadway strike was far smaller-scaled that a transit strike would be, hence more likely to be responsive to political intervention.
My thoughts on ostrich? Very tasty, more like beef than poultry, also very low in fat.
As far as I know, I've never seen Bloomy run frantically and stick his head in the ground. It'd be funny, though. :D
I had occassion to be in New York yesterday and I used both PATH and the TA's subway system. I've noticed that when the last fare on the PATH Quick Card is used the turnstile confiscates the card, whereas on the subway system the entire mezzanine of the station I entered at was littered with old Metro Cards. It seems to me that the Authority could save a bundle of money by recycling the old cards and thus eliminating the littering of the stations with empty or valueless cards. In view of the fact that the subway turnstiles have no way of capturing the cards, maybe an amount equal to or maybe half the fare be electronically maintained on the card so that riders would be forced to keep and refill their cards. I know a number of people would cry bloody murder if the TA kept a nickel of the cards value but it would sure keep the stations looking a lot cleaner. I think it's a better way to go than to try to re-educate people to use the waste cans provided.
Just a thought.
Bob
If the turnstyles eat the cards, the MTA could implement distance based fares.
Speaking of which, why do MetroCards have rides by monetary value while PATH makes it easier by deducting the number of rides each time?
Such as when you choose the amount of money you want to add to a MetroCard, in the long run, it'll make you memorize decimals and irregular numbers in order to keep track of how many rides you have, every time being anxious to prevent seeing an "INSUFFICIENT FARE" when you go through the turnstiles when you have almost run out.
If the turnstyles eat the cards, the MTA could implement distance based fares.
How does this work?
"If the turnstyles eat the cards, the MTA could implement distance based fares.
How does this work? "
You insert the card when you first enter the system. Then at the station you get off you reinsert the card in the turnstile and it calculates the distance traveled and deducts the appropriate amount.
San Francisco's BART has that type of system.
It could never work in NYC.
Remember the "swipe" system was chosen for the less moving parts and eaiser maintenance. Also the card never leaves your hand and you won't have skells trying to grap cards as they come out and the people are slow to get to the other end of the turnstile.
Washington Metrorail does this too.
If you deduct only based on number of rides, you exclude the possibility that Metrocards could be used on different transit systems with fares that are not multiples of the MTA bus/subway fare. For example, if the Port Authority has its act together for AirTrain JFK, you could use a Metrocard to pay the $5 AirTrain fare.
Something strange happend to me today in regards to the Quick Card. I bought a 2 trip card and used it the first time I got on PATH to go to Hoboken.After my first ever trip on the Hudson Bergen LightRail,I used the card again at Pavonia/Newport and instead of the card being captured,it gave it back to me and it said that I still had 1 trip left.That's the first time that's happened to me.Right now the Quick Card is sitting on my desk awaiting it's next,extra use.
What do you do about the free transfer that remains on the card? That's not an issue on PATH.
Remember that buses have a "Capture Bin". They also have a convient slot that drivers use to shove MCs that customers give them.
The point is that the system KNOWs that the card is liquidated.
Ok, I made sure to do my research this time before asking this question...
I am seriously considering applying for the open competitve T/O, which takes place from 5/7-5/27. I have 120 credit hours from college to account for four of the five years of previous work experience that is necessary. However, I'm not sure about the one year of full-time work, since I am a recent graduate. I've had my share of part-time and full-time (in summer) jobs since I was 16; can all this be counted to add up for the year that I need? -Nick
If I remember the Test Annoucment from last time, you need continuous employeement.
I could be wrong, they do count part time work in other Tests but it gets a lot less weight then full time in the scoring but this is the minuium to take the test.
You have to wait for the offical test announcment.
Thank you, Lou. I plan on getting a job before the test even takes place; since I have no idea how long it will take for call backs after the application process ends. -Nick
And there are we who just want to do one's job correctly, safely, and God forbid, our choice between God and the union. Yeah, let's go, cut steel (v. burn rubber), and get them to someplace remote in Brooklyn swiftly.
I was just enjoying some of the photos in the L Train's Broadway Junction section, and came across this great photo, which I had a question about.
But before that, I just wanted to let David know that this is really Myrtle-Broadway, not Broadway Junction. I know that building on the left well - I used to stare into the gaping holes that were supposed to be windows in that building (and finally are again) for many years (since the mid-80's) on that platform transfering between the M and J. Actually, I've seen photos from the early 50's that show that building without windows - it was abandoned for over 50 years! I'm 100% sure that is Myrtle.
Anyway, I have a question ---- WHAT IN THE WORLD IS HAPPENING IN THIS PHOTO? It's an engine pulling an old train.....
That loco looks WONDERFUL! :)
It sure does look great! When I pulled that photo up, I just said, "WOW". (nothing to do with Opie & Anthony).
#6 looks LOVELY. I remember back in 1970 seeing it rusting away in a corner of CIY. It looks FABULOUS! :)
That was from the Steeplecab Special fantrip of 9/22/02 ... see the link for what we did.
--Mark
I saw, I knew, I was spectacularly impressed ... still can't get over what a great job they did with #6. I remember it rotting away in the back like so many other museum pieces that are long since gone. It looks WONDERFUL!
Chris, that is definately Myrtle-Broadway, and that is a steeple cab pulling a Triplex on a fan trip, probably just last year.
Its the March Of Dimes Fan Trip,
and I rode on that train!
Got pictures too, but my camera died on me, and so the best pictures never came out. :(
Elias
What lines did it run on? I think I've also seen a photo of that train in lower 9th Avenue.
You certainly have. That was quite an experience, and a huge surprise. My jaw hit the floor when I noticed that we were pulling into 9th Ave LL...I wasn't aware that we were even allowed down there. Then again, we did spend half an hour sitting in CI Yard while they ditched one Triplex set...
Dan
Route was as follows:
36th St / 4th Ave to Stillwell Ave via West End Line. Stop at lower level 9th Ave / 39th St
Stillwell Ave to CIYD to drop off one set; flat wheel developed trying to climb hill out of 36th St onto 39th St cut
CIYD to Church Ave (F) Culver
Church Ave to CIYD loop onto Sea Beach Line, then via 4th Avenue, Nassau St Loop, Williamsburgh Bridge and Broadway (Brooklyn) El to Bway Junction
Bway Junction into ENY Yard, around loop, back onto Broadway El, then back to 36th St, Brooklyn using same route we got to ENY YD in reverse
See here for where the photostops / runbys were.
--Mark
So Mark when are you going to start selling streaming video feeds of your subway tapes? :-)
I honestly don't understand why fan trips are put together with locomotives "pulling" antique self-propelled cars. While you're riding, you can't tell there's a loco in front, and the loco produces extremely non-prototypical photo ops.
I did ride probably the first of these excursions in the early '60s, when #7 was put in front of Triplexes, but the Triplexes were still in regular service then, so the loco was supposed to add novelty.
Now if they had a Forney steam locomotive pull the BUs to Canarsie or on the Alabama-Cypress Hills J, that would be interesting...
Do they still run? I'm curious because I have a photo of an SBK engine pulling a set of old trains around the bend at Wyckoff Avenue station. They did this when they were filming the movie "Malcolm X" there. They did this the entire weekend. The M was run as a shuttle in two sections, single tracked, which each section meeting at Seneca Avenue, while the SBK engine and the (what I think are the triplexes or some old set of cars) back and forth all day long for the movie filming on the Metro bound track at the Wykoff station. They did have the signs changed on the train to read "Boston Elevated Railway" and a sign at the Wyckoff curve reads, "Dudley Street Syation".
They did this when they were filming the movie "Malcolm X" there. They did this the entire weekend. The M was run as a shuttle in two sections, single tracked, which each section meeting at Seneca Avenue, while the SBK engine and the (what I think are the triplexes or some old set of cars) back and forth all day long for the movie filming on the Metro bound track at the Wyckoff station. They did have the signs changed on the train to read "Boston Elevated Railway" and a sign at the Wyckoff curve reads, "Dudley Street Syation".
Well, here are some of the photos I took when they were filming the movie "Malcolm X" at Wyckoff Avenue. Don't mind the photos, I was still pretty young, and I believe these were taken with a 110 camera (don't remember). Anyway, so what kind of trains did they use here with "Boston Elevated" written on them? Are they part of the NY museum fleet with "Boston" written over, or is that something the movie company brought on over. I also have a photo of the train at Fresh Pnd yard the following day, but I couldn't find it when I was scanning these.
Here's Denzel Washington and Arsenio Hall (I think that's who was in the movie-I forgot) in those 30's outfits under the Wyckoff Ave Station structure.
"Anyway, so what kind of trains did they use here with "Boston Elevated" written on them? Are they part of the NY museum fleet with "Boston" written over, or is that something the movie company brought on over."
Those ARE the D-Type Triplexes, the "Boston" stuff was plastered over it. Shame on them, may the Red Sox reach 100 years of frustration before they win the next world series. It's our favorite babies, and they GRAFFITTI'D them..
But it's soooooo weird to see Triplexes in a movie with "Boston Elevated Railway" on them when we've gotten used to seeing the TTC represented as New York.
Well, at least they're pristine (but empty) during their runby in Class of '44.
It was Spike Lee. Thankfully, Arsenio Hall was nowhere near this film. You may be thinking of "Coming To America", which also had a subway scene.
Yes, on a R38, all scenes, (except for the entrance outside in the pouring rain.), were shot at every movie producers favorite place: Hoyt-Schermerhorn St/IND. Interesting how they placed "Supthin Blvd" on the signs at the other closed platform, when Supthin Blvd on the F is a local stop.
Question: Did the police bust Eddie Murphy when he jumped the turnstile at "Van-Wyck Blvd"?
>>>Question: Did the police bust Eddie Murphy when he jumped the turnstile at "Van-Wyck Blvd"? <<<
No.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't believe you ACTUALLY answered THAT question! Better go back to bed and get some more sleep.
I thought you were serious.
Peace,
ANDEE
A pre-GOH R-38 at that, probably still had the "Darth Vader"-sounding brakes (although the movie soundtrack didnt pick it up) :(
BTW the 4-car set was, IIRC, 179th St end-3972/3973/4033/4032-WTC end
(This was before Archer Av opened).
Correct. It was Spike Lee and Denzel...sorry...momentary mental block.
You may be thinking of "Coming To America", which also had a subway scene.
Hehe, and Eddie Murphy was no where near Wyckoff that day either....just further down the line near Marcy Ave for "Coming to America" a few years earlier.
^^^"just further down the line near Marcy Ave for "Coming to America" a few years earlier."^^^
[near Marcy Avenue] Is "Coming To America" the movie where they built
a simulated elevated station at Havemeyer & South 3rd Streets in
Williamsburgh? It's near Marcy Avenue! >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I don't think that's "Coming to America". The scenes where Eddie Murphy and Arsenio move into their slum apartment in "Queens" is filmed a block from the Broadway El near Marcy Ave station. I don't remember any simulated el station though, but I haven't seen the movie in a while.
The reason, I posed the question is on a Sunday afternoon way back
when on coming over the Willie B, the BQE was stopped and ousted
to the South 5th Street getoff and left on Havemyer towards Greenpoint.
Much to our suprise, we saw the simulated Elevated
Station at the intersection of South 3rd Street along with older
street lamps. The buildings in the area are "dated". Never did
pursue, as what or why. Also wonder if it ever made it into a film
or whatever or was edited out? Still a costly venture to build a
simulated station. I never was much of a photographer, so I blew
the opportunity. That's why I just dig the posters with the
camears whom share with us all on this board. THANKS. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Yeah, interesting. I don't think it was Coming to America. I would love to find out what movie it was.
Amazingly movie companies go through great expense to film movies. The spent an entire week setting up Wyckoff Ave for Malcolm X. They filmed for an entire weekend, and even put the M into a GO for the whole weekend, and then a few days to remove the fake "skin" from some of the buildings that they put up. This was all for less than a minute of filming as the "Boston Railway" does the curve at the beginning od the movie, A few minutes of Spike Lee and Denzel walking under the el, and a barbershop scene that was actually done in the building at the corner of Wyckoff and Myrtle. Amazing the lengths they went through for probably less than 5 minutes of the movie.
Hey Sparky, I can speak from FIRST HAND experience: My old '72 Dodge Dart was up 'on location' in the Country Club section of the Bronx for Spike Lee's "Summer of Sam" for THREE EVENINGS of filming. Come to the actual movie and you only see my car for about 50 seconds of footage! (at least I got some $$$ for my troubles).
Hey Sparky, I can speak from FIRST HAND experience: My old '72 Dodge Dart was up 'on location' in the Country Club section of the Bronx for Spike Lee's "Summer of Sam" for THREE EVENINGS of filming. Come to the actual movie and you only see my car for about 50 seconds of footage! (at least I got some $$$ for my troubles).
Was that the car in which John Leguizamo's character and his wife's cousin, well, you know?
I WISH! I believe that was a '68 Camaro??
No, you see my car briefly as the Son of Sam crosses the street to enter a vestibule of an apartment building where he guns down two young women. It's about a 1/2 hour into the film. It's a bronze colored, 2-door h/t Dodge.
^^^"(at least I got some $$$ for my troubles)"^^^
Gotta check the soles of your shoes from now on, as you seem to step
in sh*t, when it comes to getting the palm blessed. Too bad you don't share the wealth with your buddies. You sure your of Latin heritage, but are known as a scotch. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I wanted to add also that the movie company even actually painted the entire canopies at Wyckoff Ave station for the movie! Wyckoff Ave was a light pink-purple (awful) color at the time. The movie company painted each column beige and the rest of the canopy. However, they only did it on the side of both platforms you could see from the filming. So for a few years after, if you looked at the station towards the tower, the canopies seemed purple, if you looked with the tower behind you, the canopies were beige. This lasted until the station became "graffiti free" a year or two later.
About 100 feet of an "el" was built here in Buffalo for "The Natural". It's the first scene in Chicago where Glenn Close is working in the soda shop. In the movie, they showed what was obviously animated shadows of trains passing...but the lighting on the soda shop is definitely influenced by the "el".
The New York & Lake Erie Railroad about 30 miles south of here was used for the train that takes young Hobbs to the city, where he meets the pseudo-Babe Ruth character and Robert Duvall's character. The same railroad was used in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles."
For Class of '44, a station mezzanine on one of the Southern Division lines was restored to the way it would have looked in 1944.
Yes, on a R38, all scenes, (except for the entrance outside in the pouring rain.), were shot at every movie producers favorite place: Hoyt-Schermerhorn St/IND. Interesting how they placed "Supthin Blvd" on the signs at the other closed platform, when Supthin Blvd on the F is a local stop.
Question: Did the police bust Eddie Murphy when he jumped the turnstile at "Van-Wyck Blvd"?
Hoyt-Schermerhorn St/IND. Interesting how they placed "Supthin Blvd" on the signs at the other closed platform, when Supthin Blvd on the F is a local stop.
Movie makers scarcely seem ever to get details like that right. In "The Hours", I don't know which station is mocked up to be Richmond, but it OBVIOUSLY isn't Richmond. There was a sign reading "Platform 1 to London", but that would be the last platform at Richmond you'd think about for going to London - well, nearly. The platform layout is as follows:
1 Down Windsor (okay, you could get to London Waterloo via the Hounslow Loop)
2 Up Windsor (i.e. to London Waterloo)
3 Up Bay (i.e. to London Waterloo)
4-5 North London Line (formerly to London Broad Street, now the nearest to the City it gets is Dalston Kingsland)
6-7 District Line (which goes to... London)
So the question is, where on earth did they mock up to be Richmond?
Not to mention that the real "Sutphin" in a wall platform station and the Coming to America "Sutphin" is an island platform station. When I first saw the movie back in the mid 80's I had never been to the real "Sutphin" yet, and by the time I finally really got there a few years later was so disappointed to see that it was really a wall platform station! It had me fooled. They got the little IND "Sutphin" tiles perfectly copied in the movie at Hoyt-Scherm.
>>>Anyway, so what kind of trains did they use here with "Boston Elevated" written on them? <<<
BMT "D" types triplex
Peace,
ANDEE
Those are the D-Types (part of the Transit Museum fleet)...those are temporary decals marking them as Boston units.
Ridgewood was a good double for Boston as some of the homes are of similar architecture of the era Spike Lee was looking for.
Disguising Brooklyn as Boston also saved him a ton of money.
Peace,
ANDEE
^^^"Ridgewood was a good double for Boston as some of the homes are of similar architecture of the era Spike Lee was looking for."^^^
Yes, but what other scene from the movie "Malcom X" was shot in Brooklyn, using steel rails and what type of vehicle was used?
Hint, it wasn't on TA property. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The trolley scene where supposedly, Malcolm X's father meets his fate (under the wheels). That was shot by 2nd Ave. and 43rd St. on Bush Terminal's street tracks.
What car was used in that scene? I haven't seen the movie since 1994 :(.
Never mind
Ridgewood was a good double for Boston as some of the homes are of similar architecture of the era Spike Lee was looking for.
Ridgewood was a hotbed of movie filming in the 70's and 80's, and many of the films rotated around the M line's stations.
-There was Brighton Beach of the 30's at Seneca Avenue in the 80's.
-Hasidic Williamsburg at Forest Avenue with Melanie Grifith and Micheal J. Fox's wife.
-Southern Brooklyn between Seneca And Forest stations.
-Patrick Swayze's Ghost at the Myrtle-Broadway Station
-Knickerbocker played itself.
-A movie was filmed with Henry Winkler at Fresh Pond Road in the early 80's, but forgot what it was.
I have some photos of the movies being filmed at Seneca Station converted to the 30's and Forest Station converted to Williamsburg. If I get a chance later I will scan them.
Woody Allen dressed up NY&A's Fresh Pond Yard (Ridgewood/Glendale) to appear as a '30's freight yard in his "Dirty and Lowdown" movie starring Sean Penn.
Was it true that the D-Types were pushed by diesel (SBK? locos) for the filming, as they were not operational at that point? They were in the process of being worked on at CI, but time constraints kept the mechanical work from being completed.
-Stef
You are correct as usual, Mr. R-17! :)
Thanks! I didn't know that if that was actually true or not....
-Stef
So I guess I still have a question about what brought this whole topic to start. Someone mentioned that they were wondering why they had an engine pulling the triplexes (which are self propelled), in the original photo that started all this at Myrtle-Broadway.
Then I mentioned that I saw them pulling them (or I thought they were the Triplexes) with the SBK engine at Wyckoff.
SO why is it that they are using engines to pull them around, assuming that they can travel on their own?
You've answered my question about the locos pulling the D-Types.
The reason for the locos pushing/pulling this train was that the cars were undergoing mechanical work at that point, and time constraints kept the work from being completed. Spike Lee had to complete the movie regardless of what condition the cars were in.
-Stef
Guess what? I seen this in person too! I was there when they were filming the Malcolm X movie. It was a neat site. I have pictures with my family.
By the way, speaking of Myrtle, does anyone else have a problem accessing the Myrtle-Broadway page, or is that a problem with my computer again? I had been having problems viewing some webpages (not at this site), and thought I corrected it (by disk clean-up).
So, can you see the Myrtle-Broadway photos here? I tried running disk clean-up, but it doesn't seem to be working. The page doesn't seem to be loading properly for me. At least then I know if it's me or not.
Myrtle-Broadway
>>> The page doesn't seem to be loading properly for me. <<<
I had no problem with the link you posted.
Tom
Yeah, it works for me now too. I tried disk clean-up again, and it seemed to have worked this time. Strange.
Did anyone ever travel from NYP to Philly on NJT with a transfer to SEPTA at Trenton. I know its a long trip but is it worth it? Better then taking Amtrak?
No, of couse it is NOT better than AMTRAK! AMTRAK is a heck of a lot faster and easier! All the Septa/NJT thing has going for it is that it is cheaper. That's it. I've done it, and if I want to save money, I'll do it again.
---Brian
He's right, its cheaper and unless you want to make all local stops all the way from NY to Phila, then this is the ride for you.
I have ridden it where if one of the services were late then its a long wait at Trenton for the next train. Connections are usally ok, but there is always that chance you wont be in Trenton on time.
Ticket machines usually dont work, or have long lines, another chance to miss the connection or pay the surcharge. Nothing to do at Trenton its really the pits, not even a bar to kill some time in!
I don't know how the ticketing works from the Philly end, but I remember being able to buy through tickets NY-Trenton-Philly from the NJT ticket machines in NY Penn Station. Very convenient not having to worry about that when changing trains at Trenton.
I've done it in reverse (Philly to NYP). Much slower than on Amtrak, of course, but much cheaper, too. If you have the time and enjoy watching the scenery go by slowly cuz you're stopping at every flag stop, go for it!
I've done it several times b4 I just had my self dropped off at the new Hamelton station. Just about the only pro is that compared to Amtrak it is very cheap. The connection at Trenton is well co-ordinated and trains are usually held to compensate for minour lateness on the part of either NJT or SEPTA. The major con is the time involved. You are looking at about a 2 hour trip each way, and for a day trip to either Philly or NYC it can really cut into your time.
Last year three of us did that trip. If you go with some friends it doesn't SEEM to take any longer. We arrived about noon at 30th street, did all the colors, then overnighted downtown.
If you can, your best bet it to take an NJT super express from New York to Trenton, (making Newark, Princeton Jct., and Hamilton in between) then SEPTA's R7. Grab an hour (more or less) from NY to Trenton, which really buys you time compared to taking the local.
I've never taken a super express NJT before in either direction, but I've seen some Comet II unrefurbisheds with Comet 2B's and an Alp44 make the run speeding past Metuchen s/b on a weekday afternoon. Check NJT's schedules here. There is a variety of super expresses, which some stop at New Brunswick, etc,,, It should be a little easier to get one since NJT has added more of these onto their schedules. But unfortunately, the RTX fare is not valid on these trains, or else you get charged a step-up fare.
Take AMTRAK from Trenton to 30th St. if you don't have the time. Money is traded for time when riding AMTRAK on this route.
Correction. There are two, evening super-expresses (one at 8:08, and the other also in the hour of 8) from New York to Trenton with Newark, then New Brunswick, then all stops to Trenton.
Correction. There are two, evening super-expresses (one at 8:08, and the other also in the hour of 8) from New York to Trenton with Newark, then New Brunswick, then all stops to Trenton.
AMTRAK takes exactly one hour from Trenton to NY according to NJT's schedules.
Also, from which origin stations can you get a direct ticket from the origin station to/from Philadelphia? I know New York is compatible but anywhere else? (I think Newark works also) I couldn't get a ticket to Philadelphia from Metuchen or Trenton.
They could easily program the TVM at 30th Street Station's SEPTA concourse to do that, but they haven't. Maybe there isn't enough demand for it.
Actually, you can buy tickets for a trip from 30th St to NYP at 30th St in Philly. There is an NJT ticket vending machine there, and I've bought my tickets there before.
Mark
If you call yourself a railfan, and you have the time you have to do it once.(Yes, I have.)
According to the March 14 edition of the Chief-Leader, Roger Toussaint is continuing to purge dissidents from the party, er union. Marc Kagen was referred to as "his closest aide" but when Mr. Kagen opposed the ratification of the new contract, his days became numbered. Of course, Mr. Toussaint clarified the situation. He said Mr. Kagen's firing was not due to a difference of opinion or even over something as important as the contract. Mr. Toussaint said that "it is about our ability to function effectively and not be paralyzed by disruption."
MEANING - If you disagree with roger, you're out.
Stalinist purges - redeux?
Okay, so the TWU ("Toussaint Worshipers Union") has become Roger's personal feifdom. Aside from the names and faces, are most other unions really any different?
Perhaps not but say what you will about Sonny Hall or Willy James. During their tenure, New Directions did exist within the TWU. It would seem that Roger will not make the same mistake that allowed him to ascend to the throne.
'Chump Sum' and 'Nuked Pick' has not placed Roger Toussaint and Company in the hearts of most CED CIs and RCIs. CTA wages are getting closer to ours. Jut got app. for rodeo and will submit in morning. CI peter
Test
IT does work ya know!
Yeah but I was gone for a while.
Why does the #3 terminate at Lenox Ave, 148th ST?
Was this line to continue say to Bwy and hook up with the #1
Or was it always just meant to be what it is, the end of the line?
Actually, it used to end at 145th Street, until they extended into the yard there. No, it was never meant to connect to the 1 line (the 3 just left the 1 at 96th!) It was meant to be a place to end trains and store them in the yard, and so that not all the 7th Ave-Broadway Expresses had to go to the Bronx which would not be necessary.
The #3, formerly the 7th Ave./Lenox Line, terminated at 145th St. from its inception in November 1904 until May 1968, when it was extended to the current 148/Lenox Terminal stop, which is actually closer to 7th Ave. The "extension" really uses old trackage and real estate that once housed the IRT's main repair shop. Opened in 1904, the shop was closed in 1959 when IRT major repairs were shifted to 207th St. Some yard tracks remained but the old shop site was replaced in the mid-1960s with a high-rise apartment complex, Esplanade Gardens. The 148th St. station is actually right under the buildings. Some yard tracks are still there as well.
[...until May 1968, when it was extended to the current 148/Lenox Terminal stop, which is actually closer to 7th Ave.]
It's actually AT 7th Avenue (okay, Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Blvd) & West 149th Street. The only reason for naming the station after the wrong street was the existence of two other stations under East 149th Street in the Bronx. "Lenox Terminal" is also a bad name, since the station isn't at Lenox. Maybe it just didn't occur to anybody to name the station "Esplanade Gardens" after the apartment complex! (However, that WAS done for the Queensbridge Houses.)
Good point. I guess "Lenox Terminal" was used because all 5 prior stations (110 116 125 135 145) are all along Lenox Ave.
Some yard tracks are still there as well.
Is the yard underground, or is it outside? Is it visible from the street?
It's approximately on ground level but under a building.
It's visible from the adjacent station.
Thanks for the info. I had no idea you could see the yard from the station.
So this extension was built to serve one apartment building?
No. The extension already existed, and after stopping at 145th trains went there anyway to turn. A platform was built in the 60's to allow passengers to ride through.
Remember, the station name is misleading. It's not three blocks north of the previous station -- it's four blocks north and one long block west of the previous station. Do you think the 7th Avenue and 50th Street stations on the E are too close? This is about the same distance.
With ten-car (or even nine-car) trains, 145th is hardly a suitable terminal, since passengers who mistakenly remain in the rear section of the train would be forced to ride through the relay.
In the 1930s and 1940s, there were proposals to extend it up to 155th Street, connect it with what was left of the 6th and 9th Avenue els by the Polo Grounds and run it up along the Jerome Avenue line.
There were several issues (financial, obviously, but also the need to rehab the old el structure to handle the heavier cars), that let to that not happening.
Out of the current IRT rolling stock, which is your favorite overall? Don't let the scrapping of the redbirds bias your opinion.
Here are your choices:
R142
R142A
R62
R62A
R26/R28/R29
R33/R36 Mainline
R33/R36 Worlds Fair
R33/R36 WF
R62A and the R142/142A.On a related note,I rode a redbird on the 4 train today.Lead car was 89XX.
You're a luck man. G-d bless you.
I meant to say "You're a lucky man. G-d bless you."
R33/R36 World's Fair They give a fun ride and have a railfan window.
R-12s of course!
The R-15s were nice too.
I did ride on Low-Vs even when they were on the mainline (lexington) but did not care for them as much...
Of the ones listed, I'll go with the WFs!
Elias
Well, I did say CURRENT rolling stock.
R33/R36 Worlds Fair
For me...
R62
R33ML
R36Flushing
R29
R26/28
Wayne
R62A.
(My first ever solo ride on the subway was on the )1). I'm thrilled to see them on the (7).)
:-) Andrew
Why, thank you! I'm glad I'm favorite. You are, too.
Right. Gramattical error. That should be "IRT Rolling Stock - YOUR favorite".
:-) Andrew
But you are my favorite :)
I guess I'm not much of a traditionalist - my favorites are the 142's and 142A's.
I love the R142A's.
R142s and R142As - which DO have railfan window in spite of what many on this board think.
Yeah, they do, but the railfan window is a few feet in front of a door that has a window with crazy fun house tape on it.
The R142A -Nick
I like the "Redbirds" because of the railfan window. The R-62?R-62As are good because of their colorful interior. The R-142/R-142As are nice because they're quiet inside and they're brightly lit. However, the R-62/R-62As and the R-142/R-142As have terrible railfan windows if they're even unblocked.
#3 West End Jeff
R33/R36 Worlds Fair - Nuff said.
R-33 mainline, no question. The R-62A isn't bad, especially if the cab's folded up. The World's Fair cars are vastly overrated.
danggit, you beat me by 7 seconds
R33/R36 Mainline
The R-26, R-28, and R-29 have not been current IRT rolling stock since October 2002 or thereabouts.
In this order from my favorite to least favorite.
R142
R62A
R33/R36 Worlds Fair
R33/R36 Mainline
R26/R28/R29
R62
R142A
Just curious, how is the R142 your favorite yet the R142A is your least favorite? They are practically identical. Same question for R62A/R62.
Peace,
ANDEE
The maker...duh!!! :)
<<<
The maker...duh!!! :)<<<
Invalid argumment, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, the R142s are superior to the R142As IMO. They have a much larger mean distance between failure.
umm... No they dont.
Uh, yes they do. Try checking out NYCSubway's section on them and you'll see these numbers:
R142 MDBF
12 Months Ending 12/2001 61978
R142A MDBF
12 Months Ending 12/2001 45843
Thats old info, and has changed
Really? Have anything to prove so?
yes, Quote from post 366311 by David
By the way, the R-142As (Kawasaki), at last check (which was after December 2001), had a MDBF over 150,000 miles. The R-142s (Bombardier) continue to lag (though they're hardly in "lemon" territory), but it is unfair and inaccurate to say that all of the new cars are unreliable.
Hmm, alright, but I'd like to know how he obtained that information.
They have different ways of making them. Which make them different structurally. R142A's post helps to prove this.
And to add to my previous post, they aren't EXACTLY identical.
For the most part...They ARE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can't you take a joke. :)
Preference to older rolling stock and not current.
1) R-33/36 WF - The unique paint job and the first IRT cars with picture windows.
2) R-29-36 mainline (as delivered) - The bright red exterior paint job with yellow grab handles. Interior had light blue walls and purple or royal blue doors. Nice color scheme.
3) R-15 - The first subway car with turtle back roofs. In interior was unique and different compared to newer rolling stock. Unique fluorscent light covers, bullseye emergency lights above doors, porthole windows on doors and ceiling without air intake grates. Cushion seating (as delivered) was comfy.
4) Low-V - The standard design of the IRT, also the very first subway car I rode on (with my family).
Bill "Newkirk"
I was never a big fan of the 7's redbirds, as they always looked so beat up to me, so I'm going to have to say the Mainline R33's. I happen to like the windows better on them also. Now that the redbirds are going, I have been warming up to the R62A's a bit because you can still have a railfan window sometimes, and I better start to like some of the rolling stock on the IRT soon, because I certainly can't warm up to the cold sterile interiors of the R142's.
Good for you. Warming up to the R62's is a good thing. I mean, forget those 'sterile' R142's! I'll take the scractchiti-ridden, wet seat/floor R62's anyday! :D
Isn't amazing how cars endear themselves as they get older. The R62's were hated when they were the newest cars on the IRT. Now people are starting to like them. I wonder if there was similiar contempt for the R26/R28/R29/R33/R36 "redbirds" we all seem to be fawning over when they were new. Imagine if the internet & Subtalk existed in 1960:
"Just rode those new subway cars. They're horrible. I'm gonna miss those low-v cars. Ride 'em while they're still running!"
"BTW, anyone watch that presidential debate on the television last night? Nixon is a shoo in!"
LMAO! Too true. :)
This is so true. The older guys must've been near suicide when the Myrtle's equipment was scrapped.
I always sort of disliked the R62's, and now I'm starting to like them! It's crazy. I still don't care for the R68's, but one day when the R897's come and they are about to scrap the R68's, long after all the other R32-46's are gone will we all have a SubTalk "Farewell to the Beloved R68's" fantrip......?
Don't take the R38/40/42's for granted, because they're toast by the end of the decade. Man, the B division will be BORING by 2012, with 1800+ cars looking identical.
Please......and the sad thing is the "boringness" is starting with the Eastern Division. All these years the JML gets the hand-me-downs and NOW they decide to give them the newest trains as the entire subway begins to look like an assembly line.
^^^"All these years the JML gets the hand-me-downs"^^^
IIRC, the R-16s were delivered new to the Eastern Division for service
on the 15, 14, 10 & 16. The sixteens were the first replacements
of BMT rolling stock. Even thought the R-1 & R-10s rode BMT lines
as fillers, for the rolling stock shy BMT Lines. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Besides the R16's and the first BMT standards, name any car type which were put into service on the J/M/L lines when they were brand new, prior to the R143?
"but one day when the R897's come and they are about to scrap the R68's, long after all the other R32-46's are gone will we all have a SubTalk "Farewell to the Beloved R68's" fantrip......?"
On the Second Ave Subway.......
NOT!!!!!
I'll take the scractchiti-ridden, wet seat/floor R62's anyday!
Hehe, well you got me on the scratchiti, but I think the floors and seats can get wet on the R142's just as easily.......
Actually, I think the R142 has superior seats. Those IRT buckets don't fit the average New Yorker's ass.
How many here try to sit on the partition so that each "cheek" is occuping one bucket?
LMAO!
The R44-46's are okay, but yes the R62's are a bit uncomfortable. Only the R40's are worse.
They aren't that bad. When it comes to girls, those bucket seats allow you to get 'up close and personal', if you know what I mean!!!
The World's Fair cars looked their best when they looked like this:
And the WF Super-express run from Grand Central to Willet's Point couldn't be beat, even if those were the days before air-conditioning.
I have to agree with that. They did look pretty sharp in their original scheme.
That Robin's Egg blue is pleasant to look at.
Amen! The 7 was more suited as The Bluebirds rather than the Redbirds. I'm not knocking the Reddies as I love 'em, but you couldn't beat that scheme.
And fortunately, they saved #9306 in the Transit Museum so that future generations can enjoy it. Including myself.
On a side note, when will the museum be re-opening?
According to the Museum's website, later this year.
I'll concur 1000%, as deliverd they would be my faved IRT modern
rolling stock.
8-) ~ Sparky
R33/R36 WF
R26/28. I know they were identical to the R29/33, but I have a bias towards ACF and against St. Louis.
why is that?
ACF built my favorite car (R16).
How did the R16's ride? Was it rocky, bumpy, and alot of noise? Or quieter and smoother than the World's fair Redbirds?
The R16's were a cross between the R68 and R44. Sluggish & mechanically unreliable in the extreme.
R33 Mainline, the fun and adventure of riding a #2 train from Flatbush to E 241st st, with all those G.O.'s and track gangs in your way.
Honorable mention: R62 on the #4, the speed and quickness, yet it is a very quiet train with a pleasant hummmmmmmmmm.
R29!
best irt cars ever!
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/today/frontpage/stories/fr031203s3.shtml
By Michael Valkys
Poughkeepsie Journal
Spencer Ainsley photos/Poughkeepsie Journal
People waiting on the northbound platform at the New Hamburg train station Wednesday are viewed through a large hole in a brick wall caused by a large door that came off a CSX Corp. freight train traveling from New York City to Selkirk at a speed of 40 miles per hour. There were no injuries in the mishap.
A Metro-North employee stands next to a large door that came off a CSX Corp. freight train. The statement on the door says "close and lock door before moving car."
The staircase leading from the west side of the New Hamburg train station was heavily damaged.
NEW HAMBURG -- A 1,000-pound door on a freight train box car blew off early Wednesday, causing extensive damage at the New Hamburg station, Metro-North officials said.
But it could have been worse.
Luckily, the incident occurred at 2:17 a.m. and officials said there was apparently no one on the southbound platform. No one was injured.
The toll of the accident could have been devastating if the door had blown off only hours later when the platform is normally jammed with commuters heading south toward Grand Central Terminal.
"That would have been tragic,'' said Town of Poughkeepsie resident Ellen Yee, who was dropping someone off at the station after noon Wednesday.
"Thank god there was nobody there,'' said Town of Wappinger resident Bill McFarland, who catches the 4:50 a.m. train into Manhattan where he works as a building manager. "You would have some major loss of life. The damage I saw, you couldn't have survived that.''
The cause of the apparent accident remains under investigation. The platform was closed most of the day and reopened in late afternoon, officials said. No delays were reported.
Service is expected to be on schedule Thursday.
See Thursday's edition of the Poughkeepsie Journal for complete coverage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we sure the door wasn't dislodged by passengers who were afraid they'd miss their stop?
:0)
Back in the late 1960's and early 1970's a bunch of railfans would gather at the Pomona, California Southern Pacific station every Friday night. There was always plenty of action between the SP, the parallel UP and the Pomona Police smashing their squad cars up in the neighborhood.
The Friday night gatherings came to a very quick end when we all arrived there early in the evening and saw a Southern Railway boxcar door lying on the platform, and about 500 feet of gouge marks down the platform. It obviously cartwheeled off of a moving freight through the station area.
Thank heaven it didn't hit anone...or even the station itself. But it sure was an awakening to keep some distance from the tracks, and be on the alert whenever a train was passing.
I will be up in the city this weekend, anywhere that you can actually catch a ride on the M-7's?
nope sorry
weekdays
am east
midday east-west
pm east
M7 Doesnt run on the weekends. I seen the M7 all week long for the past 2 weeks.
I seen them daily at noonish at Lawerence. Today, there must have been a newbie - stopped short for a change, and when it got rolling, by the time it hit the grade crossing, it was *moving*.
I just hope they're that punchy as 10-12 car trains, and that the LIRR gets the brilliant idea of finnally tightening up schedules....
Yup, I seen the M7 this morning leaving Nostrand Avenue Station, MAN O MAN, that horn is loud! I can hear it 2 blocks away as I was entering the Subway Station on the Nostrand Avenue side.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
They are still only running 6 car sets, most back & forth from Long Beach to Atlantic Ave. (some go to Penn Station).
I saw one 8 car train heading to Ronkomoma and I road a 8 car train from Floral park to Hemsted yesterday.
Robert
There are 8 Car Trainsets running also, I witnessed it myself.
PM rush M-7 Schedule
5:40 long beach
5:45 babylon
6:04 ronkonkama
6:14 hempstead
all M-7 trainsets
Could this story was one of the reasons? http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_031203_dorismondsettlement.html
>>> Could this story was one of the reasons? <<<
The article was much too short to determine if the settlement was a good one or not. They settled for less than 1% of the amount prayed for. We cannot tell what a jury might have awarded, or what was deserved from that article.
Tom
Ah for the days when journalists STUDIED their story, kept interviewing until they had an understanding of the 5 W's sufficient to "professionally witness" and put it in print. :(
All we get today is someone else's propaganda. The story's PURPOSE was NOT to report or enlighten, but to put across the issue of "tort reform now" with little more than placard mentality. Much like Backfire on CNN. Aggh.
>>> Ah for the days when journalists STUDIED their story, kept interviewing until they had an understanding of the 5 W's sufficient to "professionally witness" and put it in print <<<
Yeah, but this was from a TV station so it is not much more than a rip ‘n read 20 second item just before a commercial.
Tom
Heh. Aypee. 'nuff said. :)
(Could this story was one of the reasons? )
In a word, no.
NYC has a huge deficit because capital gains tax receipts are down by billions because the rich folks who live here aren't getting the tock market gains they were getting 3 years ago.
Also, you can certainly argue the size of the award, but NYC did essentially admit negligence in this case. It's not like someone who tries to commit suicide by jumping in front of a train and then sues because NYCT didn't prevent him from being injured.
Another Mystery Train showed up on my front door this evening. Should I be expecting to see this more often? It becomes even more impossible to keep track of these cars.
-Stef
I could not spot the mystery trains at E 180 St today but I seen 6941-46 in UnionPort and seen 1101-1110. 1111-1120 in E 180 YD.
Saw 1106-1110 and 1121-1125 at East 180th Yard today. They are defintely going to the 4 line.
Expect more...PBD, Jr. and I saw at LEAST 15 cars on flats at Fresh Pond...this is most likely a sizable order (cuz more 'mystery cars' might be on order).
Got this via e-mail & thought some of you might be interested.
THE SWISS TRAVEL BUREAU HAS SET UP A G SCALE TRAIN LAYOUT IN
VANDERBILT HALL THRU MARCH 26th. THE LAYOUT IS U SHAPED, ABOUT 30'
BY 20'. THEY HAVE 8 TRAINS RUNNING AND 1 TROLLEY CAR. THERE ARE AS
MANY AS 8 TRACKS ACROSS ON EACH SIDE. THE LAYOUT IS LANDSCAPED
WITH MOUNTAINS TREES HOUSES AND PEOPLE.
Sorry that my friend SHOUTS when he gets excited :-)
Well, put him back in your pants and we'll forgive you. :)
"Well, put him back in your pants and we'll forgive you. :)"
Maybe it's lederhosen!
Well, from what I heard there are 2 "Swiss Misses" whith whom you can get your picture taken (for free). That is probably what the shouting is about.
I can hear your echo...
can your echo...
your echo...
cho...
There is an O Gauge layout in the basement of Denver's Union Station.
Today is the big FOUR OH!! for me. That is right, I turn 40 years old today March 13, 2003. Unlike the "Redbirds" now most of them are "Deadbirds" I still have plenty of years left ahead of me.
#3 West End Jeff
Happy Birthday West End Jeff, you sure would like to see you old Bravo train back on your line, just as I can't wait for my favorite Delta line to come roaring back to uncharted land on the beautiful and scenic Brighton line. Both events (along with Fred's line released from the terrible dingy ugly waters of that rat infested tunnel.) will happen REAL, VERY SOON!!!
The West End Line train "W" has NO place on #4 Sea Beach Fred's line. and I too hope that his train "N"is removed from the rat infested Montague St. tunnel and returned to the high and mighty Manhattan Bridge.
#3 West End Jeff
The W line IMO, can share duties with any line (even my Brighton line is more than welcome!), but it CANNOT BE THE ONLY LINE, PERIOD!!!
Sanity in Brooklyn is coming back slowly, less than 10 months to go when the B, D and N come back!!! HIP, HIP HURRAY!!!
Hey Jeff, as they say, life begins at 40. Have a great one and about 55 more.
"as they say, life begins at 40. "
So do the aches and pains and you will learn the true meaning of how gravity works.
"as they say, life begins at 40. "
So do the aches and pains and you will learn the true meaning of how gravity works.
I hope to have many more #4 Sea Beach Fred. Nwat year your train might be out of the rathole that a.k.a. the Montague Street tunnel.
#3 West End Jeff
Happy birthday! I'm at 64 days and counting (if I did my math right...) June 16th. How does it feel to be 1/3 of the way through your life?
Happy Birthday, Jeff. May you have many more!
Happy Birthday, Jeff. Many more.
Peace,
ANDEE
And you'll have had a long stretch here of no Friday-the-thirteenth birthdays. My mom has a birthday on a thirteenth, and that always used to get her goat.
Happy 50th, 60th, 70th, 80th, 90th, 100th, 110th, ...
I had a Friday the 13th birthday in 1998. That will not occur again until 2009.
#3 West End Jeff
Happy 40th Birthday, and many more to come. I think the next ten years will be among your greatest. Enjoy them and the fifty or so after that.
1963:
JFK still in office
The fare is 20 cents
Cars still had fins
Lo-V's, Standards, D-Types and R-1/9s still in service, not to mention BMT Q's
Pushcart hot dogs are 15 cents, a loaf of bread 35 cents, gas 24 cents a gallon
#3 West End Jeff is born
2003 :
Dubya is in office
The fare is TEN TIMES what it was in '63
Cars don't have fins anymore but Hummers can cross 4' of water anyway
Redbirds are going to the bottom of the ocean, replaced by talking trains
Pushcart hot dogs are $1.25, a loaf of bread is $1.50, and a gallon of gas is the same as the subway fare
#3 West End Jeff probably wishes he were 20!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY AND MANY MORE!
JayZee BMT...The Eastern Division is ageless ;-)
The fare was 15 cents in 1963, actually. It went up to 20 cents on July 5, 1966.
1963:
Pushcart hot dogs are 15 cents, a loaf of bread 35 cents, gas 24 cents a gallon
2003 :
Pushcart hot dogs are $1.25, a loaf of bread is $1.50, and a gallon of gas is the same as the subway fare
I fear that some of the pushcarts are peddling 1963's unsold dirty water dogs!
I think that you're right. Some vendors might be selling 40 year old dirty water dogs.
#3 West End Jeff
Feliz Cumpleanos!!!
As we say in Lithuanian, "Ilgiausiø metø!".
I rode Redbird #9301 on the uptown 4 this morning. Unfortunately, I only had to ride one stop (Fulton Street to Brooklyn Bridge) so I didn't get a chance to savor the ride.
I'm treating every Redbird ride as a treat, just as many people did when the R-1/9's were being phased out. I'm cherishing every smell, squeak, rattle, groan, bang and hiss, because they won't come our way ever again.
Nice. I want to see these Redbird riding reports coming in regularly now.
I can give you a daily report on the R33 WF cars on the #7 Flushing for at least 4 more months.
GREAT picture in the print edition of todays Daily Snooze. Rustbirds being dumped into the ocean. They titled it "Sea Beach Line". Not available on line though.
Peace,
ANDEE
SadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSad
I don't consider it sad at all. The Redbirds time has come, it's just that simple. Time to mOOOOve on. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
OK Rode a Redbird Today at 1420 from Franklin to Atlantic. North Motor #9301. Got the RFW. Watched it pull out at Atlantic like it was my last ride. Hey, didn't I do this VERY SAME THING 26 years ago on the Queens Blvd. Line, as R-1/9s were doing their swan song there? It's Deja Vu all over again, as my Yogi would say...
Thanks for the report. Here is a blood brother of #9301, about 4 hours later.
Take Pride,
Brian
dont feel bad I rode a redbird on the 4 Wed morning 9240 was the north motor
Story from WABC TV/Eyewitness News website:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_031303_redbirdsink.html#
Please learn to link!!!!! Do it for those that care about you!
Nred help on this, BADLY!!!
Nred help on this, BADLY!!! I am using Explorer 4.0
Fine. You could have just looked this up yourself, but I guess you're not gonna.
The instructions are here.
Go down to the heading of "Adding links to other pages" and then to the sentence beginning with "To link to a page on another Web site you need to give the full Web address..."
(a href="www.whater-your-URL-is.com")TEXT that you want it to say)(/a)
Replace ( ) with < >
ooops typo, takd out the ) after "say"
(a href="www.whater-your-URL-is.com")TEXT that you want it to say(/a)
doesn't hurt to put in the "http://" in front of the "www." also
This is just a test page Story Here
BINGO! Now I got it, thank you Chris. I was finding a way to cut and paste special link via. the net. I can add a hyperlink to MS Word, but I don't know how in Explorer. Microsoft doesn't have any help on it's Internet Explorer, I looked it up. And I'm not lazy either.
Looking at those pictures makes me ill. Still, at least they're being put to good use rather than being melted down. I suppose divers will be able to get a good view through the railfan windows!
What a bad article! They don't make mention of route the cars come from. Is it the 7? I'd like to see those dumped soon....given I've already I've taken pictures of them already.
Saw the NYDN pic of 9103 et.al going into the drink today. I was on that car just a couple weeks ago! Another part of my youth goes SPLASH! :-(
The producers of Malcolm X also needed a trolley for the film. They rented Denver and South Platte Birney Car #1 from the Seashore Trolley Museum. I have long since forgotton the exact street, but it was on some abandoned track near Third Ave. & 45th Street in Brooklyn. Wire was strung for a block, and energized with 600V by generator. Since the scene was to happen with the street wet, water was sprayed on the street since it wouldn't rain (!). And since it was around Christmas time, it got cold and the rain froze making for some fun running :-) A colleague of mine from Seashore ran the car in the film. I had a chance to run it on the street in Brooklyn during one of the rehearsals. So yes, a streetcar ran in Brooklyn!
Aye, #1 on the Butler Grove Lead. I was hoping to stir up some more
interest besides the Triplexes. Thanks for the fresh post On T, since
the BMT Man, the Transit Museums Docent on Brooklyn Waterfront Railways
chimned in so quickly on my "Trivia Question".
BTW, it was 2nd Avenue in Brooklyn, the Gowanus section of the BQE,
would be above you on 3rd Avenue.
8-)~ Sparky
I forgot to mention in my post that the reason the trolley scene was needed -- was that Malcolm X's father was killed by a streetcar.
In Lansing, Michigan.....
I ran the car too, and helped as-needed.
I also took aerial photos of the installation, as I worked then in a warehouse on 2nd Ave and had access to the 5th floor.
Wire was strung for a block, and energized with 600V by generator
See, light rail isn't nearly as expensive to construct as they claim!
That was re-electification of streetcar track. Try and build the same thing today, with enviromental surveys up the ying-yang, plus all the workplace safety provisions. No wonder it costs lots of $$$ to build one line today.
When the light rail line was built in Balitmore, both ends were active railroad lines. However, the state enviromental studies were done (the core line was built without Federal funding (cost: $638M) or we would have had the grand opening in 1997, not in 1992 as it was held).
The day in May of 1992 we had the grand opening the final application for Federal funding of the three extensions, a process which started in 1990. The three extensions (Hunt Valley, Penn Station and BWI Airport) opened in 1997, five full years later.
Today on MNRR I noticed that the partially built, new platforms at Riverdale Station are about 14 inches higher than the old ones! (The new ones are finished on about half the length of the station and butt up against the old part still in use, so it's easy to see the difference.)
Later on the return trip, when the train stopped at Spuyten Duyvil, the same thing -- newly-built northbound plat -- already in use -- is about a foot higher than the floor of the car when the door opens.
Not only does this mean you have to step up to exit, but it's easy to trip. And what's a wheelchair user supposed to do?
Why was this done? Are they planning to raise the trackbed too? That would be expensive.
? Are they planning to raise the trackbed too?
That would be logical. The Brighton line had a similar but less extreme condition in the mid 90's when new trackbeds were being laid.
Sounds like they're gonna raise things up a bit. Maybe because of that weird flashflood they had a few years back?
The talk about Malcolm X (where a Triplex is posting as a BER train) made me think of a couple of movies with subway scenes I saw recently.
One is The Devil's Advocate, which Dave already mentioned on this site. In addition to the Devil-speaking-Spanish-on-the-IRT scene, there is also a scene with Keanu Reeves as the young lawyer entering Chambers Street BMT. Real shame about that station--even though its glory was already faded by the time I saw it in the late '50s, it is really a magnificent station which I would love to see restored.
Also features a lot of flavory New York locations and scenes. Shame Keanu's flat acting in a key scene and poor accent takes a bit of the punch out of Pacino's entertaining Devil and an interesting morality tale.
Not mentioned here is the 1998 Scorcese take on Great Expectations with Ethan Hawke as Pip, Gwyneth Paltrow as Estella, Robert deNiro as Magwich and Anne Bancroft as Miss Havesham. I should mention most of the character's names have been changed to protect the innocent--Dickens. If Ms. Bancroft said "Chick-a-Boom" one more time...
But to get back on topic--this is set in comtemporary New York, and we have a long subway scene beginning in Chambers Street BMT with hoods stalking Magwich (called Lustig in the movie) from platform to platform and then on what I suppose to be a J train headed out. Script says the final destination was supposed to be JFK...
Well here was Forest Avenue's (M) 15 minutes of fame from around 1990 when they filmed "A Stranger Among Us" there. This movie was set in current times (well 1990 anyway), and they converted the whole station plaza around the Forest Avenue station in Ridgewood to Williamsburg in the heart of the Hasidic district. Melanie Griffith and Tracy Pallack? (Micheal J. Fox's wife) stared in this film. She played a cop undercover among the Hasidics in Williamsburg. Funny, they didn't try to hide the fact either that it "wasn't" Williamsburg. All the real street signs were left in place, and you see them clearly in the movie. At one point during the movie, Melanie Griffith yells in a phone, "Quickly, I need back-up at the corner of Forest and Putnam!" as there was a shootout. One of my favorite "store conversions" for the movie was a Polish Pork Store (real business) on the corner that they turned into a "Kosher" meat market for the movie - a bit ironic. All the stores got new names and Hebrew writing. It stayed like that for a week.
Well here's some photos, at least "subway related". No special trains, just the plain old R42's were allowed to pass through in the movie (and you hear them to).
The "glamour" of Hollywood. This is where I saw Melanie Griffith, Michael J. Fox and his wife Tracy in between filming. They got to walk through the weeds to their trailers under the roaring of the M Train above at the station. Some said they saw Bruce Willis (he was still with Melanie) but I didn't see him.
Melanie Griffith walks up this stairway in a few scenes.
>>> his is where I saw Melanie Griffith, Michael J. Fox and his wife Tracy in between filming. <<<
You certainly are star struck back in the Big Apple. Out here we don't bother to stop and look unless it is Ron Jeremy performing with at least two co-stars. :-)
Tom
Ron Jeremy? Hmmm, not material for outdoor filming at subway stations is it....
not YET anyway :)
--Mark
>>> Hmmm, not material for outdoor filming at subway stations is it.... <<<
Maybe not in New York. :-)
Tom
Tracy Pollan. Got her start on the original Zoom series on PBS back in the late 60s/early 70s.
--Mark
That's it. Well, I was close - I knew it started with a P and had two l's. I couldn't remember for the life of me yesterday what her name was.
Well, the last movie for now that I have photos of anyway. Unfortunately, I have lots of photos from when this movie was filmed back in 1985 at the Seneca Ave station. Unfortunately, I didn't take too many of the station (I wasn't really a railfan yet), and most of them are just of the street as they converted 1980's Seneca Avenue into 1930's Brighton Beach.
It was the height of the graffiti era, so Senecas Ave had every inch of it's platform and station covered with graffiti. The movie company copletely repainted the entire platform, and the tops of the stairways where a few scenes were filmed on the landings. The Planter's Peanuts mural on the building still visable to today from the Seneca Ave station was also painted by the movie company in 1985, and "A. LUX Cutlery" on top of the Planters Peanuts ad was a business that never existed, it was purely put there for the movie also. It's also still there to this day.
A bit of trivia....Who is pictured on the Planter's Peanuts ad....of course, it was a bit more relevant and ironic in the 1980's....? (He's not in the photo, I'm going to have to rely on those who have past through Seneca recently, (or have seen the movie, where it is visable a few times).
They painted "RIDE THE OPEN AIR ELEVATED" across the mezzanine of Seneca Ave. The station is visable in many scenes of the movie. In many scenes you can hear the R27/30's going by.
It's actually a pretty good movie. It's about a poor Jewish family struggling to get buy at the height of the Depression, and worrying about their family in Europe. Brighton Beach Memoirs is worth a watch...
They filmed for 2 full weeks. Seneca Avenue worked great for them because many of the original storefronts still survived right into the 80's. Unfortunately many 1990's renovations destroyed that look. So here's a photo from the filming. This is 1985 believe it or not; they did an amazing job of turning it into 1939. I took many photos, but this was the only one that seemed sort of Transit related. Man I was young back then.....
The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3 is still a great movie. Along with Money Train, Night Hawks, Beat Street, Wild Style, Dreams Don't Die, Night Shift, Die Hard III, Fort Apache-The Bronx, and The Warriors.
Didn't 'Bye, Bye Braverman' have some scenes that were shot at B'way-Junction?
Not really sure. I never saw the movie. I know the movie "The Wanderers" had a scene under the Canarsie Line at Atlantic Ave.
Let's not forget the cartoon "Courage the Cowardley Dog" who took over the controls of NYCT's first Nuclear Powered Subway train after the motorman jumped off the train after seeing the "suspicious package". Ironic the last stop was the stage at Radio City Music Hall.
And the cockroach's name was "Bushwick" but just call him "Shwick".
"Stupid Dog"
lol
The film had aerial views of the VW Bug the characters drove around in making its way through the maze of L tracks. There was also a shot on the Williamsburg Bridge with the Bug racing a numbered train. It was not until I discovered this website that I discovered I had seen it clearly, that the BMT Eastern Division hadn't switched to letters yet in early 1967.
Well, wouldn't you know it.....another DM30 develops a problem this afternoon. On my way home to PJ our train stalled between St. James and StonyBrook. The HVAC went out followed by the lights. However, the toilet still flushed Good thing for battery power.
Engine restarted several times but died after a few seconds. Finally after 90 minutes or so, another eastbound coupled up and pushed us to SB and PJ. Even with 8 cars and a dead loco, the single DM30 pushed pretty well. Hell, a conductor even said that the engines were a piece of shit.
With that said, would it be a good idea to have a rescue train stationed at the yard just west of Huntington or in the PJ yard? Just the the SW1500 outside the East river tubes? Might sound like a waste of money but might be a good idea.
BTW: The 4:17 from SB was cancelled because of our train.
What is a DM30?
(from nycrail.com)
Gotta "love" those DM30's!
Bring back the GP38-2's!
They don't have enough engines for a rescue train on each line they operate and those down for FRA inspections.
ha i saw a dm30 being pushed at bollins deisel yards today (just west of jamaica of brooklyn line), it must have been yours
Seeing a diesel loco being pushed at Morris Park (next to BOLAND'S LANDING) is not unusual. That is the location of LIRR's diesel shops. That loco being pushed could have been in for regular periodic maintenance (what?? on the LIRR???) or any other reason imagineable. They have two tiny shop switchers for pushing dead locos around (actually, they have three, but in true LIRR fashion, one's being cannibalized for parts!!)
In this picture:
What does the "K" stand for in the train on the left? Picture taken 9/9/01 at 207th St. Yard.
Someone was playing with it. The K used to run on 8th Avenue in the 80's.
To explain further:
Originally, on the lettered lines a single letter meant Express and a double letter meant local.
The A was (and still is) the 8th Av Express. The local was the AA.
When the TA decided to go with a single letter all the way around they could not shorten AA to A as it was already taken. So they used K which was actually a leftover from the KK service that ran from 57th St/6th Av to Atlantic Av on the L (or on occassion to 169th St-Jamaica on the JJ - now J).
The K 8th Av local ran during non rush hours. Local service during the rush was covered by the C (renamed from CC) when it ran on the Concourse line. Nowadays the C runs just about all day withe the A covering the local service overnight. The B handles the rush hour local service from the Concourse line now.
K is most commonly used as the eleventh letter of the English alphabet.
Paul and I took almost identical pictures thanks to that "K." The event (actually 9/8/01) was the NYD/ERA 207 Street Facility Tour. The same day as the Try Transit Festival in Hoboken, and the "V" train experiment. I stayed at the WTC Marriott that weekend. Fortunately, I departed Sunday...
Maybe before the train operator left the train he/she left the dial on K instead of A.
A speculation, a guess, any trace...ANY kind of answer to this question would be appreciated:
What is the deal with the middle track on Myrtle Avenue? Was there ever one there? Was there ever a service on it? Were provisions made for one but the plan fell through?
I've been trying to figure this out for eight years...
The middle track was in from Central to just before Seneca where the frame of the bumper remains. From what I heard, it was removed from service around WW2 and the rails were ripped up shortly after. The ties remained until sometime in the early 60's.
-Mark
Yes, there was a track in there from where the Myrtle El tracks came down around Central and went through the Wyckoff Station. When the Canarsie line was being planned it was supposed to be elevated east of Montrose Avenue, and would have passed through the Wyckoff-Myrtle complex as an elevated line. In anticipation of a different traffic pattern, the express track was installed. The station may have looked something like the way the J and M meet at Myrtle-Broadway, the way it looked when the old Myrtle El passed overhead. Some trains may have went straight over, and some may have come from the Canarsie Line and joined the M train. Early form NIMBY's didn't want the Canarsie line to be elevated through Bushwick, and it was put underground instead, and Myrtle-Wyckoff became "over-built". The express track between Myrtle-broadway and Myrtle-Wyckoff was basically useless with just the M train so it was torn up.
Someone posted a photo here some months back of a train at Knickerbocker or Central that showed the center track there. I thought it was a photo right from this site, but I couldn't find one in either Knickerbocker or Central sections on this site, so it must have been posted from somewhere else.
The picture is on page 36 of Greller's "The Brooklyn Elevated"
That was dated in the late 1940's, and the track then was already abandoned, similiar to the middle track on the third Ave el in the Bronx prior to it's demolition. Does anyone know if there wer switches south of the station, or north along Palmetto St (The middle track dead ended at a bumper block short of Seneca Ave.)?
I always wondered about the switch arrangement myself and I had asked somebody. Told me that there were no switches in the area of Wykcoff. That there was only one way in and out down by the junction between Central and Myrtle. Any train arriving into the middle track had to go back south or continue north into the dead end at Seneca if another train was allowed to follow the first one. So now I had to ask, what was up with the tower on the curve that figures so prominently in pictures today. I was told that even though they built a "tower", it never really became one. So perhaps they never wanted to spend the money to install switches later on, this would explain the middle track's early demise along with the design changes made to the L line staying underground. Once again, this is only what someone told me. A picture exists looking south from Wykcoff station with the middle track still present and no switches are in sight.
It seems silly that there would have been no switches near Wyckoff, even when they first put the track in. Maybe they wanted to short turn trains at Wyckoff and those short turn trains would run Express. It doesn't make sense really to have no switches there if they even bothered to put the track in in the first place. I always thought (total speculation) that maybe they wanted a provision to extend the line along Myrtle Avenue, it seems like they could have. But that would not explain the tower either, because the tower would be in the way of an extension up Myrtle Avenue.
I guess when the NIMBY's sent the Canarsie line underground, whatever the real plans for Wyckoff were were lost forever. Again it's ironic that so many of these Dual Contract Els got express tracks that were either never used in revenue service or used very little - and the one line that really needs the third center track, the Jamaica Ave line, never got it - just a provision for it.
There had to be switches near Wykoff. There's a large tower there.
That's what I thought but this is what a friend of mine at work told me. Said that even though they built a tower building, it never became a real tower. It does seem silly not to have switches at Wykcoff but it is possible. If switches did exist, they would have been north of the station. I have seen a picure looking south toward Knickerbocker and there are no switches. I would like to believe that there were switches in the area too. Had to have been some master plan that was unable to be completed.
I think with the BRT Els there was always a plan to have express tracks. Not that there was express service.
Fulton St El seems to have had an express track. But no service. Broadway El seems to have had some express service but not past B'way Jct.
Myrtle Ave El might have had express tracks from Downtown to B'way and the trackage from there to Myckoff.
Maybe the BRT built the provisions for express service. But never built it because (Insert your reason here)
I think with the BRT Els there was always a plan to have express tracks. Not that there was express service.
I think for the most part you are correct with that. It seems that most of the lines built under the dual contracts were built to either have or allow a provision for express service. There were a few exceptions such as the M line between Seneca and Metro, but that may have been because the el was built over what was a private ROW as opposed to a street, and the ROW was probably too narrow to allow for even a provision for an express track. I can't think of any other dual contract el that does not at least allow for express service.
Fulton St El seems to have had an express track. But no service. Broadway El seems to have had some express service but not past B'way Jct.
Yep, the parts of the Fulton El that were rebuilt to dual contract standards did indeed have an express track or provision for it. ANd the part of the Jamaica/Broadway El that doesn't have provision for an express track is the unrebuilt pre-dual contracts part of the El between Bway Junct and Crescent Street.
Myrtle Ave El might have had express tracks from Downtown to B'way and the trackage from there to Wyckoff.
I don't believe the Myrtle was ever more than 2 track or even provision for three tracks between Myrtle and downtown. But then again, this ws not a dual contract el.
The Myrtle Avenue El could not have had an express track because most of the stations were center platforms. As for the portion between Wycoff and Metro, that part used be all grade level track. I have seen several pictures of el cars at Forest avenue as the el structure was being built. The ROW was originally used by the el and was later converted to trolley use. Believe it or not the Forest ave ROW station had a center platform, and two tracks that fit between the el columns.
Actually, if you look at the middle photo here under the Forest Station, you can see one of the old tracks right behind the car by the gate.
Thanks, that's where I must've seen it!
Interesting discussion. I grew up in Ridgewood, in the 70s (I think the el was green then) I recall seeing paint outlines on the center track steel (stringers) that gave away the fact that there were indeed ties there once. Subsequent paint jobs have erased much of this.
Since there is no steel to support crossovers (at least in my memory), I believe it was indeed a long tail track, accessible only near Central Ave.
I cant verify this, but my conversations with now-deceased Walter Druck (who lived I think on Grove Street, starting around WWI) suggested that there was never an express service there, but the track was used at least for midday lay-ups (PM put-ins at Broadway/Myrtle).
That was a common practice then, Ive seen pix of the Flushing Line jammed with midday lay-ups of Second Ave el gate cars in the teens and 20s.
Yeah the el was green when I first rode it. It then was painted like a rust-beige color. Currently it is green again.
That was a common practice then, Ive seen pix of the Flushing Line jammed with midday lay-ups of Second Ave el gate cars in the teens and 20s.
There wasn't any regular Flushing express service until the World's Fair, right?
Well aside from being a railfan I am a streetlight fan. Just as most riders hate the older trains, especially the redbirds, while us in the minority love them, I feel the same with streetlights.
I am a huge fan of the low pressure sodium (LPS) streetlights that have been in use in the Town of Oyster Bay since the early 80s. For those of you who arent familiar with luminaires, these LPS lights are long and skinny and produce a soft yellow light.
I fell in love with them the first day they came. Sadly, they are on their way out. Unlike most people, I dont care for the glare of today's cobrahead high pressure lights. They are harsh and that pink light makes they sky look pink.
But bowing to pressure from community groups, the Town of Oyster Bay recieved a grant to replace alot of the LPS lights with High pressure (HPS) ones. I better get lots of pics while I still can, because in 10 years, the Town of Oyster Bay is gonna full of glaring streetlights like everywhere else. :-(
Qtraindash7:
If you are interested in streetlights, check out two sites that are linked to this one: Forgotten New York and Streetlight Nuts of America.
Thanks for plugging...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yup, we all love your site....although by the look of the thread title you must be using Netscape.....
You made my day, John ! I can't wait for them to replace those LPS lights. Makes the streets very dim, especially on rainy nights. HPS is the way to go. The LPS lights were installed down here on the south shore in 1980.
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW how long is a streetlight supposed to last? Is 20 years generally the time to replace them? Alot of the fixtures are burning out.
I don't prefer the LPS lights, but not for the light they give off, it's the look of them. It's strictly a preference thing. Anyway, this is a bit off topic, but if you've been to Farmingdale village lately, they are replacing the pink sodium lights with high-intensity white sodium, looks much better, actually looks retro. You can see them all up and down Rte 109. They are bucket-style luminaries, not the cobraheads.
wayne
I haven't been to Farmingdale since 1969, when my aunt and uncle, both since deceased, lived there while my uncle was working for Grummann (sp) on the Apollo space project. They lived right by the LIRR tracks in Bethpage Apartments. I found a 1968 slide of my uncle at the station with an Odd Couple poster behind him. That water tower with "Village of Farmingdale" written on it was down the street from their apartment complex.
In fact, the last time we went there in '69, my mother and I rode out on the LIRR.
There is a what might be a high pressure cobrahead light across the street from the house where I live and it shines into the front bedrooms to the annoyance of those that must sleep on that side of the house. Though a shade was installed to help cut down on the glare, it isn't a panacea. Years ago there was a cresent type light on the same pole where the cobrahead is presently mounted.
#3 West End Jeff
Although this is kind of off topic, probably the best street lights were the old wooden Robert Moses Parkway style lights that adorned all the parkways on Long Is (including Bklyn & Queens) up to the 80's. They gave the parkways a rustic flavor (along with the wooden dividers) that they don't have today. Nowadays if it wasn't for the scenic stone bridges you couldn't tell a parkway from an interstate!!! Fortunately there are still some of those wooden lights left on the Meadowbrook, Wantagh, and Ocean Pkways, at Jones Beach, and on some exit/entrance ramps on the Belt Parkway in Bklyn. Its hard to believe the youth of NY don't know what the Parkways are supposed to look like.
The Meadowbrook below Merrick Road and Loop had new Woodie wannabees installed in 2001. The lower Wantagh may have them as well. They look nice, but are easily distinguishable from the ones we grew up with. The Ocean still has some postwar Woodies from Jones to Moses, but in badly diminishing numbers. Yes, there are a few Woodies left on Belt Parkway exit ramps, but with seventies-vintage 'bucket' diffusers commonly seen all over Nassau and Suffolk streets. They have none of the personality of the old incandescent 'gumballs' and 'cuplights'.
Strangely, sometime after the MTA took over the Rockaway line from the LIRR, full-height aluminum double-mast poles commonly found on highways built in the sixties were installed on the platforms at Howard Beach/JFK, Broad Channel and Beach 116. If you go into Rolling Stock and click on some pics on R-1/9s and Slants at those stations, you'll see these poles in all their gumballed glory. They were removed from Howard Beach and Broad Channel sometime in the eighties, but remain at 116th. Why lamp posts you'd expect to see on highways were put on subway platforms is very puzzling.
Seems like incandescent fixtures are completely extinct from NYC, although the Westinghouse flourescents that replaced them can still be found here and there, mostly on side streets in the outer boroughs. Some even still work! There's lots on the roadways of Riis Park (which ironically carried Woodies for many years in anticipation of Moses building a parkway the length of the Rockaway peninsula), Fort Tryon Park and the Shea Stadium parking lot.
But in the 'burbs, old fixtures still abound. There are still gumballs, cuplights and cones on Northern Boulevard through parts of unincorporated Great Neck, Manhasset and Roslyn that answer to the township of North Hempstead. There may still be some in Kings Point, Glen Cove, Sea Cliff and other municipalities. Hempstead township pretty much surrendered to cuplights and vapor sodium back in the seventies. Of course, anyone involved in this thread knows about Oyster Bay township. I'm not sure if there are any 'classic' light fixtures left in Suffolk.
Northern Jersey, however is a treasure trove. Even major arteries like 17 and 46 still have loads of gumballs. Some lower Westchester villages might also.
Sometimes it's reassuring to be reminded that tastes differ. I had always assumed there was a universal animosity to LPS. I'm glad to hear there's a variety of personal opinions. My own personal dislike of LPS comes, not from functional reasons, but from my childhood. My very first memories were of the bugs that flew around the yellow light bulbs at the dairy places in the hot Florida summer, and since then I have never been able to stand that particular color.
I wonder how dim the IRT stations were with the 1904-era incandescent bulbs at the original spacing? In Paris they used a highly glazed white tile to get as much reflection from the bulbs as they could.
Next week will be officialy one year that I have been posting on SubTalk. I learned more from here about my transit and commuter systems than anywhere else. Thanks for a good year and for hearing me out.
Also this past Tuesday, 3/11/03, just celebrated my 26th birthday. And joining this site last year was the best gift I ever recieved.
Thanks again.
Bklyn
I can't thank Sub-Talk enough for keeping me entertained in the long evenings I spend at home by myself. (The regular guys know why).
Thanks to Bus-Talk ,also.
I can't wait to get Branford on March 30, and meet everyone!
Chuck Greene
Same here.
Are you coming to Branford on March 30? If so please RSVP Sparky.
Trying to estimate number of SubTalkers, who will be participating
at the next "Gathering Of SubTalkers @ Branford". Thanks >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
trolley687@aol.com
I can't thank Sub-Talk enough for keeping me entertained in the long evenings I spend at home by myself. (The regular guys know why).
Thanks to Bus-Talk ,also.
I can't wait to get Branford on March 30, and meet everyone!
Chuck Greene
I think this photo looks cool. I just took it this evening. Stay tuned for more photos (in color) that I just took. I even accomplished my goal of photographing a Redbird!
Take Pride,
Brian
Awesome pic!!! Keep 'em coming!!!
It's in this week's New York Press. The writer apparently only decided to hang around at the Straphanger's board -- most press people would be lost on covering subway matters without seeing-eye human Gene Russianoff to show them the way -- but the story does include the interesting fact that one of the WBBR announcers handing the station stop messages on the R-142As, Charlie Pellett, is British.
I like the voices of those announcements alot.Thanks to my talent of being able to change my voice to exactly the voice I hear,I tend to mimmick the voices to myself.Keeps me from having a boring trip.
Trust me. No one can imitate the announcements better than me. Of course, I haven't heard you yet, so I'm being a little pre-mature at the moment. I have fooled enough people from the job while riding with them. This was at the beginning when R62A's were still running on the 6. The best gag I pulled on them was the "safety" and "delay" announcements. For those, they bought all the rounds of beer that night.
e.g. " Ladies and Gentleman, for your safety, please do not block the doors while the train is in the station".
This site lists who does the voices on all of the Millenium cars on the A division. Who does the voices for the station announcements on the L line though?
It's the same people.Read it again.It says they did the voices for the R142,142A and the 143's.
I'm not so sure if the NY Press got it right about the R143s. I rode the R143 when it was trying to pass the 30-day test, and was able to get into a conversation on the train with a Kawasaki employee. He said they didn't use the same people as the R142/R142A. Instead, the train came equipped with several different computerized voices already, and they tested out several different voices before choosing which ones to use. -Nick
The R-143 male voice DOES NOT sound like Charlie Pellet....but it could just be the acoustics of the car or the speed that the annoucements were recorded at.
It is him without question.
But isn't he English, at least according to his Bloomberg bio? The male voice clearly sounds American. He must be do a pretty flawless American accent.
"He must be do a pretty flawless American accent."
You need career speech to be a news anchor; meaning nobody should be able to tell where you are from by the way you speak. -Nick
I wish they'd put Melissa Kleiner's voice in EVERY car. Very sexy voice.
She's the one on the 6, right? I like the 6 announcements the best.
No, the #5.
FORMERLY the 5 train.
She's the voice of the 6 train now?
Nope. Jessica Ettinger does the 6. I would REALLY like to know who does the 4 and updated 5 announcements.
I remember there was something about the automated announcements a long time on this board, and showed the peoples name and picture.
Sounds like Charlie "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please" Pellet is a closet railfan...
Sounds like it's a different woman doing the announcements on the 142s that run on the 2 and those that run on the 5. On the 2, she announces Wall Street as "WAAWW". On the 5, she clearly enunciates "Wall". For what it's worth, the 'she' on the 5 sounds a bit harsh and snippy.
The article states ....
He recalled how, in his first years in the city, "I would stand in the front car so I could look out the window." (This habit, he admitted, was compulsive enough to cause the loss of a girlfriend.)
Her loss, I'd say :)
--Mark
Hehe, I was dating a girl for a few weeks about a month ago who I didn't tell I was a railfan too. Casually at diner one night I brought up the subway in the context of traveling around the city. She said to me, "Oh, I'm scared of the subway". I said to myself, "Oh that figures, this is going to be interesting". Something was going to have to change with that scenario, and it wasn't going to be the subway for me.
Well, end of story - I'm not seeing her anymore, but the subway had nothing to do with the break-up anyway....
April 1 is the submission deadline for Philadelphia high school seniors interested in competing for paid, mentored summer internships at SEPTA and St. Christophers Hospital for Children.
Details
April 1 is the submission deadline for Philadelphia high school seniors interested in competing for paid, mentored summer internships at SEPTA and St. Christophers Hospital for Children.
Details
April 1 is the submission deadline for Philadelphia high school seniors interested in competing for paid, mentored summer internships at SEPTA and St. Christophers Hospital for Children.
Details at http://www.philaedfund.org/collegeaccess/Proofread%20Contest%20Flyer.htm
I'll get it right this time:
Details here
Finally got it, I hope.
Seriously - if you know anybody in the 12th grade in Philly, encourage them to participate.
Talk about the S#!T hitting the fan. I'm told that the LIRR has a contractor who evacuates the septic tanks on the LIRR cars with bathrooms. The truck, referred to by some as "The Honey Sucker", hooks a hose to the tank outlet and the waste is sucked from the car. Well on Tuesday, the signals got crossed - I'm told (by a reliable source) and an express train left Babylon Yard, heading for the station - still hooked to the honey sucker. Needless to say, there was a 'trail' from the yard up to the station.
No particular point here........
EWWWWWWWW!
wayne
DOUBLE EEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
And I thought the bathrooms on the M-1/M-3's were so bad!
I'd hate to be that guy. That job really sucks -- cuz whomever is in charge has to take alot of crap! :)
Actually, that is a real shitty job.
...GROAN...
Peace,
ANDEE
I used to work for the airlines...and we had a guy dumping the crappers in the back end of a 747. You'd hook up the dump hose that went to the truck -- while you were about 35 feet off the ground, then pull the handles one by one to get the crappers in the planes to unload. The guy doing heads this one night thought he'd pull all six handles very quickly instead of one at a time -- and the hose couldn't take the added stress. Made a real mess of the gate that plane was on, the airport cops, fire department, and everyone else came and cordoned the place off until the FD could hose it all away (after they made the guy scoop up the big chunks and put them into the lavatory truck (we used to call it the "Honey Bucket" -- some folks on the ramp called it the "Turd Hearse" cause you were taking them for their last ride....)
Well after all the years of debate, I know which is the fastest subway car and I have the PROFF. This AM I was at 42nd St on the 8th Ave line and boarded an uptown A express (8 R-44s). Across the platform there was an uptown A train local (the last midnight local). This train consisted of 8 R-44s. Both trains closed their doors at exactly the same time. Both trains began to move at exactly the same time. However, after 20 or 30 seconds, the R-44 was moving faster than the R-44 on the other track. As far as I'm concerned, this is clear and compelling PROFF that the R-44 is faster than the R-44.
HUH????????????
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Which one - the express or the local?:)
Yes
No hippos in the way ahead, huh? (grin)
Don't laugh. The R-68s were very peppy last fall when I rode on them. Both on the D and Q.
Absolutely ... and I can vouch for it as well ... just tightening Train Dude's slack adjusters since the whole premise is that the Hippos are slow according to "expoits" ... those of us who have operated know better. :)
I just don't get it. Why are the R68's loosely referred to as Hippos? Is it another inside joke as 'PROFF' is? : )
It IS a subtalkism as far as I can tell - they call htem "Hippos" because they're allegedly big and lumbering and SLOW. Not true, but everybody believes it. When I was last down in the city, went and checked it out for myself. They're JUST as fast as any other train, just a lot smoother in takeoff and braking and mechanically tight. Since they don't shake and clop like redbirds, they're perceived to be slow. It ain't the rolling stock, it's the RAILROAD that's slow with all those !@^&*^$# timers. As a former motorman, I *know* that you don't wrap it when you're passing yellows and see a red in the next block. That ain't the rolling stock's fault.
To me, they look like 75 foot stainless steel Twinkies from above.
Heh. Now THERE'S a disgusting thought. Scientists claim that twinkies will still be just as mushy in 3000 years as they are today, although by then they just might dry on the outside to that strange gunmetal color. :)
Nobody will ever confuse an R-68 with an R-10.:)
No. One was a pleasure to ride. The other was the R10.
Heh. Haven't yet had the pleasure of RUNNING a 68, but I'll bet the cab experience is also superior to that of an R10. Then again, an ARNINE beat all hell out of R10's to operate. :)
Just a fast explanation as to my attitude about the R10's ... picture yourself in the cab of a set of ten. You pull ONE notch to do a diverge. Three cars are spinning their wheels at full tilt grinding the rails, three other cars have their wheels LOCKED and not moving and four cars do your bidding - all straining against the couplers trying to see which car can push or pull the others into a derailment. BANG! SKREEE! Rather unsettling. :)
Trust me, the R-10s weren't ear-splitting loud when they ran on the A. I never had to hold my ears as we ripped past local stop after local stop along CPW. Of course, most of my joyriding was during the cold-weather months when the windows and storm doors were kept closed. Still, it really wasn't that bad.
Are you SURE you rode R-10's? The name "thuderbirds" was given to them because they'd drown out a 747. :)
I was the one who gave them that nickname, given that every subway car series had a "bird" suffix. I also referred to them as the Thundering Herd. Believe me, compared to riding in Chicago's subway sections, the R-10s were quiet as mice. I had to hold my ears in the State St. subway in 1970.
When I first rode on them, the R-10s had the racing stripe scheme. Then it was the half-and-half paint job, then silver and blue, and finally dark green.
That's deep!
I could have told you that! Everyone knows that the R-44 is faster than the R-44.
Seriously -- the last local and the first express aren't supposed to meet, are they?
Which one got to 59th first? A few weeks ago, I was on a SB A that left 59th at the same time as a C. At 42nd our holding lights are on, probably so we'd connect with the C -- except that by the time we opened our doors, the C was already well on its way to 34th.
How long did it take for the A to get to 42nd? You'd think the A has a decided advantage, what with skipping 50th St. and gathering speed in buckets on the downhill to 42nd.
The A opened its doors just after the C began to move.
i have never seen that happen
The 5:14 A Far Rock is the last A local. I'm not sure but I believe the 5:34 A Lefferts is the first express. On a normal day they will meet somewhere north of 59th St.
This PROFF is clear as crystal. I mean, it would take an idiot not to figure this one out. ;)
No, read your Einstein.
The R44s on each track were traveling at the same speed, but the track under one was receding at a faster rate than the track under the other.
So which track is faster?
Depends on how much the dents on the bonnet of one affects the curvature of time on the other. :)
Who cares about that. The big question is -- which one had the better railfan window?
I'm holding to my long standing arguement that the R-68's supposed slowness is due more to NVH issues than anything else. In otherwords, it's all perception.
The last Shovelhead I rode felt fast cause it was loud and shook like crazy, but my Twin Cam would wipe the road with it's ass in a race, no problem at all. But the acceleration is quite smooth (ok, fror a Harley, but it *is* pretty damm smooth), and thus it doesn't feel fast until you look down (it's got a nasty habit of getting away from you too - you can easily find yourself doing 70 or 80 without realizing it, and I've hit 100 on the LIE passing cars before...)
If you're in a quiet, smooth subway car, it'll feel 'slow', especially if the acceleration is tweaked well. Hell, it could be doing 50 and it'll feel 'slow'. Get in an R-10, and 30 feels like 60.
True, but I should add one note: properly run, a railcar such as an M1 or M7 can be raced at 100 mph, and can keep it up all day. Sooner or later your Harley will feel the strain (not to mention you'll burn out the brakes controlling it around curves).
Actually, 100mph on my bike is only 4500 rpm. A bit high, but not really out of the normal running range (I run at 4 grand pretty often on the highway, and you're supposed to keep an HD around 3 - 4k anyway). I've run for miles on end at 70 - 100, and it really doesn't care, though if I did it all the time, a Baker 6 speed would go in there (drop the motor a few hundred RPM). (for the morbidly curious, I-95 to Middletown CT is maybe 10 - 15 minutes at that speed, at least up Rt 9)
Brakes? Well, yeah, it doesn't like curves much (though more so than you'd imagine), but being a heavy bike, it burns brakes up anyway in stop light to stoplight running....
If only we could get a set of R-10s!
I wish I had timed some of those R-10 A rides along CPW all those years ago.
Denver's LRVs are so quiet at 55 mph, you really can't tell you're going that fast unless you look out the window or watch the speedometer (very easily done, I might add).
Was there a weed fire in the vicinity of Jamaica Yard again? :)
--Mark
No, just too many of those smoking pipes left as litter at Kew Gardens station. If a customer slips on one of these, blame it on Train Dude for leaving it there and another lawsuit against NYCT.
Well that's PROFF (not PROOF), that some R44's cars are faster than the others. Train Dude might have referred the faster set of R44's on the express track as the original test train that went a record 88 MPH. Or it might have been the local train that was the test train. Either way, the train on the local track was probably running behind schedule.
It's proof of absolutely nothing. Perhaps the train that was traveling more slowly had a yellow signal in front of it instead of a green signal. Perhaps it had to deal with a timer that the faster train didn't. Perhaps the operating styles of the two Train Operators differed. Perhaps the slower train had more cars with dead motors than the faster train. Perhaps it was something else I haven't even thought of...
David
Dude ... just wanted to say CONGRATS! You've outdone 76th Street ... wanna join an upstate carney? You're invited. Just grab the fairway key from the concession booth and you're in! :)
An R44 fast? I gotta lay down for this. The R44 was the worst lemon ever purchased, exceeded by the R11. If you want fast subway cars, 75 footers don't cut it. But to be fair and not diss the 75 footers, the fastest one should be the R46. And I noticed earlier, why do they call the R68's "Hippos"? I thought they were reffered to as "Dumb Blondes" as I have read in books.
For the B Division, the fastest car with no doubt is the slant R40. A Division has a tie with R62 and retired R22.
And I noticed earlier, why do they call the R68's "Hippos"? I thought they were reffered to as "Dumb Blondes" as I have read in books.
I believe the R-46's were called "dumb blondes."
There was a certain car put out by ACF in 1954-55 that was a lulu of a lemon. The R-16.
Has anyone been taking any pictures lately? I remember a whole thing last year where cops would be suspicious of people taking pictures. Just wanted to know if cops and other personnel will question you for taking pictures.
I shot 2 ½ rolls on HBLR and NYCT systems on 8 March 2003. I even got a couple of shots inside PATH PA4 #888, and one at Hoboken terminal, which I asked permission from the station guardian to take, and he said OK. I shot right down empty track #1 and it came out fine.
wayne
Who in the what now? You took a photo down track one of NJT's Hoboken Terminal or PATH's Hoboken Terminal?
PATH's.
Took it at about 9:45AM last Saturday.
wayne
And there was a live person down there to ask permission? Someone from the tower or one of those Red Coat customer service people?
I took about 300 in the past two weeks, some in front of police officers. No problems except for a T/O on the 5 who asked me not to take his picture.
Don't worry about it.
Surfs up! Take as many redbird photos as you can! I've taken hundreds of subway photos in the last month. See below:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/bowlinggreen/bowlinggreen.html
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/subsun/subwaysunday.html
http://www.railfanwindow.com/photos/blizzard2003/blizzard2003_1.html
You've got some pretty nice pictures there. You even went out on the day of the blizard. Does your camera do the black and white, or did you edit it in a program like Photoshop?
I've been taking pictures of the subway recently without any trouble.
Not much as far as stainless steel equipment goes. When they send them to the car wash and give them a bath, I might just pick up the camera.
Bill "Newkirk"
Last week I verified with public relations that photography is still permitted subject to the "no ancillary equipment" provision mentioned in the photo FAQ.
Thanks for the replies all. I just got 128MB of smartmedia and I hope to be using it soon.
No problems on WMATA. Took quite a few photos today.
I was wondering if that section of el stucture between Alabama Ave and Van Siclen Ave go back to 1885. Does it? Or does it go back to 1893?
I believe the section of El structure between Alabama Ave. and Van Siclen Ave. dates back to 1893.
#3 West End Jeff
Chicago has some sections of the Green Line (former South Side Rapid Transit) elevated structure that date back to 1892!
-- Ed Sachs
"Chicago has some sections of the Green Line (former South Side Rapid Transit) elevated structure that date back to 1892!"
But the Jamaica el. from Alabama to Crescent St, is still standing since 1885!!! NYC beats Chicago, in terms of oldest el. structure by a good 7 years.
So Happy 110th or 113th Birthday!
According to my sources at NYC Transit, the "Els" were built to support 11 times the weight of a packed subway train running at speed. After all these years, their ability may have been reduced to 6 or 7 times the weight of a train.
Back in those days, the tendency was to overbuild. If you needed an elevated structure to support 1000 tons, you built it to support 2000.
Are you referring to the unrebuilt els or the Dual Contracts structures built to handle steel subway equipment?
My grandfather's birth year.
That segment was built to transport fairgoers to the Columbian Exposition. I read they really pushed things to get that line built in time, so much so that it may have had less integrity than the Lake St. portion.
Doesn't it date to 1885, when the old "main line" was built? The section from Van Siclen to Crescent dates to 1893.
It's just after midnight. French Connection is on AMC if anyone wants to catch the subway scenes again.
Ever since AMC started showing commercials I avoid it like the plague.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think a lot of people are.
AMC went from being the best movie channel of 20 years ago, to just another commercial TV station today.
Thankfully, we still have TCM & Encore!
... and how did "Chain Reaction" end up being a "Classic" on AMC? The quality of movies selected by AMC range from crappy to downright awful.
"AMC went from being the best movie channel of 20 years ago, to just another commercial TV station today."
I agree with you, what are they thinking ? I remember back in '70's when the ABC 4:30 movie (NYC) would show French Connection. Do you believe they would have a commercial break in the middle of the chase scene ? AMC at least waits until the chase comes to and end and Popeye pops Frog #2. I'll give them that at least.
"Thankfully, we still have TCM & Encore!"
How long before they make the same mistake ?
Bill "Newkirk"
AMC was once "Rainbow Media" (AMC/Bravo/IFC) owned by Cablevision. NOW they're owned by NBC. Slippery slope. Whoops.
Up until about two years ago, AMC published the best program guide I have ever seen. It was a monthly magazine by subscription only, and gave indepth stories of some of the movies they were showing. They suddenly ceased publication, and issued refunds for the balance of each subscription.
I vaguely recall a feature on French Connection, and regret that I did not save it at the time.
And besides, it's the "French connection" not the "Freedom connection" and therefore prohibited viewing. :)
>>> "French connection" not the "Freedom connection" and therefore prohibited viewing. <<<
No, it is OK to watch. The French (Frog 1 & Frog 2) were the bad guys. :-)
Tom
C'est le guerre. :)
Funny you posted this. I was up past midnight watching the chase scene inder the "el". I did notice one thing. After the motorman passes out or has a heart attack, the gunman lifts the motorman a bit to revive him and drops him. Now wouldn't the dead man trip the train if he passed out on the handle and was lifted up ? Ahh but this is movies where dead man controls don't exist !
Also I liked the first "el" scene at Bay 50th where The R-42 first appears as an R-32. Also a look down the track before the train approaches the station, the train is on the center track but somehow switches to the local track at speed ! Let's see, R-42 becomes R-32 the chase begins and reverts back to an R-42!! I'm dizzy.
Also the fare control mezzanine ay Bay 50th St. looked freshly repainted. That chase scene is still a classic that never becomes boring.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's the best scene in the whole flick. All though I didn't catch it on AMC( America's Most Commercials), I own it on DVD and watch it anytime.
One night I was watching it, I played the end of the chase scene in slow motion, watching the train run against the trip. Sparks flew, but I'm not sure if that was a camera effect or if the trains really do that. Also strange that the train running on the West End was an N train, bumping into the back of a B. I guess Fred would be proud of this. Anyways, the el chase is the best. Imagine trying to chase the train in the "Sea Beach Trench"? Sorry Fred, but it just won't work.
I can compare the West End line chase scene to the slow-mo then crescendo tempo of another classic 3 years earlier "Bullitt". Simply put it, two of the finest chase scenes ever filmed, but I would give the edge to "French Connection" of the novel use of car vs. Train.
Sad that the movie theater (was my very first job back in '85) the Loews Oriental was converted to a shabby Mandees clothing store. Not a palace like the Kings theater on Flatbush Ave but a beauty to look at when you are on the B (later M) train, leaving southbound from 18th Ave station.
I remeber that theater. The last movie I saw there was "Can't Buy Me Love". I was only a kid then, and couldn't refuse to go. But the flick was ok.
"That's the best scene in the whole flick."
No arguement there. But for giggles, the scene where Frog #1 outsmarts Popeye at Grand Central was and is great comic relief.
"Anyways, the el chase is the best. Imagine trying to chase the train in the "Sea Beach Trench"? Sorry Fred, but it just won't work.'
It wouldn't be the same since the chase would have to be on 65th St. The effect of the elevated structure in the chase adds to the film. The same chase on a street with no structure above wouldn't add much to the drama.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-42s chartered for the film, 4572-4573, were normally assigned to the N line and didn't have B signs. The producers insisted on having clean cars, so that's what they got.
When the R-42s were new, they could only accommodate up to three front route signs because they were so huge. Those signs were broken up alphabetically, IIRC, which contributed to the R-42s being scattered all over the IND and BMT.
Wayne has the list of which cars were assigned to which routes when they were new.
Heh, that R-42 jumped between the center and the local track about 4 times in that sequence! And no flat wheels! Amazing!! And look how long it took for Hackman to drive between Bay 50th and 25th Ave!!
I agree with you that the El chase is never boring. I think the other El chase that comes close is the one from the movie "Running Scared" on the Chicago L.
--Mark
Mark:
I love the "el" chase in "Running Scared" . "Why are you on this track"? "Hey, we're making good time', "Shut up Penquin", "It's not the volts , it's the amps that will get you".
How about when the head breaks off the statue in the cop station, after they get their a$$ chewed, and the dope falls out.
They say in unison "O' Captain!".
Chuck Greene
Did you notice the train directly above Hackman during that collision at Stillwell Ave. and 86th St.? Why, it's a train of R-32s!
Also, did anyone notice the two-buzz highball just before the train leaves Bay-50th St? Funny - no cars were added or dropped, and it wasn't an unscheduled stop.:)
Noticed that on the "Shuttle" scene as well.
It's justifiable on the shuttle, as Grand Central is a terminus.
Here's something I've missed all these years. I was watching it on AMC at 8:00 PM. During that same chase scene the train rounds the curve around 86th St. ???? Anyway, if you look carefully you can catch a consist of freshly painted Red R-27/R-30s heading south.
Where exactly did you see red R-27/30s? I dug out my DVD and reviewed the entire chase sequence. The only time I saw any was just before Frog 2 shoots the cop on the moving train, and those cars are visible through the side window.
I have not yet dug out my DVD to see if it's there but I believe I saw one brief cut where the R-42 was on the el, going around a curve. As the train rounds that curve, I thought I saw a consists of redbirds heading south on the same curve. They are visible only for a second before the R-42 blocks them from view. The scene is from ground-level perspective. I'll try to determine exactly where in the scene that shot occurs.
The chase scene is all over the place. Much of the late chase scenes take place in Ridgewood, Queens. Hackman is driving down Putnam Ave. towards Brooklyn. The same street the B58,
B13 & B20 use after turning from Fresh Pond Road. The train is between Fresh Pond Road and Forest Ave. The final crash takes place on Woodward Ave. right near Palmetto St., where
the el turns to the right after leaving Seneca Ave. and heads toward Metropolitan Ave. If you want to visit the final crash scene take the M Train to Seneca Ave. and walk towards towards
Forest Ave under the el. When you cross Woodward Ave you will see the old trolley ROW that leads all the way to the Fresh Pond Bus Depot. The final crash took place right there on
Woodward on the old trolley ROW.
The final crash takes place on Woodward Ave. right near Palmetto St., where
Yep, much of that filming was actually done along the M train in Ridgewood, as opposed to the West End El. The only thing though is I think you mean Onderdonk Ave as opposed to Woodward. In the crash scene into the garages, you can even see the Saint Aloyious (spelling?) church steeples in the backround.
I get those streets mixed up all the time. You are right it is Onderdonk.
Check out my Bowling Green photos from today here:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/bowlinggreen/bowlinggreen.html
Take Pride,
Brian
There are more photos where this came from. Go here:
In the news today, they showed a group of Redbirds being dumped in the ocean. Very, very sad. I wonder if I've ridden on any of the ones they showed. :(
I downloaded the 8 photos from the abc news website. So very sad. But at least they are getting a proper burial at sea. It is much better than the scrapper's torch.
Take Pride,
Brian
It is much better than the scrapper's torch.
I agree. It's like they are still sort of alive, just in Atlantis as opposed to NY. At least we don't have to worry about buying a can of peas and thinking, "Hmmm, this looks familiar, I think I rode this can on Lexington Ave....."
"Hmmm, this looks familiar, I think I rode this can on Lexington Ave....."
Hah hah hah hah hah!
Makes you wonder if there was a bugler playing Taps as the Redbirds were being dumped overboard.:)
As I was a fan of all the pre-war stuff, especially the R1-9's, I was never big fans of the redbirds as they were the replacements for the Low-V's. To me the redbirds are too modern, in the same class with the 62's and 142's. So to me a really sad photo is not today's picture of the redbirds being dumped, But this photo of junked BMT Standards along with some old style Ralph Kramden type GM buses.*
*Photo scanned from New York Transit Memories by Harold Smith
Just noticed the "Mays" advertisement on the bus. I'll never forget that store.
Yes, the Old Look 43xx, that worked out of Fifth Avenue Depot in
Brooklyn, now Jackie Gleason. >GG<
8-( ~ Sparky
>>> some old style Ralph Kramden type GM buses. <<<
Was Ralph Kramden ever shown behind the wheel of any bus?
Tom
Indeed he has ...
But I suppose this belongs on bustalk ...
Wow, that REALY is a sad photo.
There is a similar photo of junked BMT standards in Subway Cars of the BMT.
Did you notice the heading on top of the photo ? It said Sea Beach Line. Also I saw a Flushing car going under with a Mets logo near the cab window.
Bill "Newkirk"
All puns aside, this looks like a group of cars from the Flushing Line, look at the windows.
Very Sad....
the 2nd photo is of R36 9413-Subway Series Special. 1st looks like a ML to me.
Sad indeed.
#9394 7 Flushing Local
Damn, I think you are right about the second photo of the car trying to stay afloat. The windows do look ML on that one and does look like 9413.
The windows do look ML on that one and does look like 9413.
Typo, obviously I mean WF, not ML.
But anyway, here is 8413 in happier days"
...Sniff.....Sniff....Sniff.....
I wonder if they're planning on saving any of the SS2000 cars for the Museum, I think that would be a good piece of NY history preserved there.
Thank you very much GP38 Chris for posting my pic of this car up on this page. I took this I believe back in May of 2002 at 52 Street Station. I wanted to get all of the Subway Series cars before they're all in the water...well all but 9327.
I rode 9450 on the 7 today. Got a pic of it and a few other redbirds while I still can. Very fast ride to this car. Redbird lovers I suggest that you ride on this car while you still can. 9573 and 9624 were among the others that I got pics of.
9413 was sure in its happier of days in this pic.
RIP 9412/9413!!!
#9450 7 Flushing Express
#9412 7 Flushing Local
Jeez, the Mets are sunk before the season even starts :-)
Oh man and I was trying so hard to keep my mouth shut...
If things keep up the way they have been it isn't going to be the only Met sleeping with the fishes.
What can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
Please... The Yankees are no better with their FAT WALLETS. Some Bombers... they do so all the way to the bank!! :D
I might have ridden the "Redbird" with the Mets logo on it.
#3 West End Jeff
The same picture was on page 2 of Thursday's Boston Globe. It had an "AP" credit, so it could have run in just about any paper!
Can you imagine what some divers are going to say in about 200 years when they 'discover' some kind of 'alien vehicles' at the bottom of the ocean?
Story Here
Peace,
ANDEE
Why would that woman on the 6 train exit BETWEEN 2 cars? That's just plain stupid.
Why would that woman on the 6 train exit BETWEEN 2 cars?
You will have to ask her if you ever see her.
Maybe the car was so crowded that she could not get near the doors.
Perhaps she had done this many times before and this time it didn't work.
Elias
Maybe she didn't realise that it doesn't work the same way as on the SMEEs.
And of course there's always the obvious down here: maybe she had a deathwish and failed. Wouldn't be the first.
May be the author of the article is naive and described it wrong. We don't know what really happened. Maybe if one of us was there to report on it...
My understanding, as I heard it today, was that the woman that fell between was slightly drunk, and it wasn't as simple as getting off between cars. Given tonight's business at Canal (I was working at GC) I've forgotten the details I had heard earlier other than she was drunk. And I really don't know anything more about Canal than you'll probably read in the papers in the morning.
Ok yea it was crazy tonight. I was your last #6 to be turned at 59 ST for Uptown service. I hear the same job number form yesterday had this 12-9 with same T/O.
Wow, sucks for him. Either he's unfortuunate or not paying attention. This one was a real mess, too (not in terms of the casualty). I think at last count they toook 3 crews down as "suspects".
Yes I heard three trains involed and 5 TSS's responded from 125, Grand Central, Utica, Chambers St 1,2 Lines.
Is this some kind of epidemic? Is falling under the wheels of a subway train a contagious disease?
Who knows? It may catch easily.
It must be something in the air....down there???
Steel dust.
Is falling under the wheels of a subway train a contagious disease?
Yeah, well, all them Wall Street-inancial District buildings have sealed windows, so nobody can jump from there any more.
Good point.
Is falling under the wheels of a subway train a contagious disease?
Yeah, well, all them Wall Street-inancial District buildings have sealed windows, so nobody can jump from there any more.
At least 200 people at the World Trade Center managed.
At any rate, my suspicion is that NYC's restrictive guns laws may be responsible for some 12-9's. Firearms are the method of choice for a substantial percentage of suicides nationwide. With access to guns being limited in New York, some desparate people turn to the subway.
Sick Question Dept: if the jumper's MetroCard is recovered, does NYCT pocket the remaining fares?
I think the first resposding officer gets it as a bonus.
Seriously that's a good Q. which you'll never find out the answer to, because the media would have a fieldday with that if it ever got out that the TA did.
It is among the personal effects of the deceased, and would go to his or her estate. We are very careful with such things at an accident scene.
Elias
>>> It is among the personal effects of the deceased, and would go to his or her estate. <<<
That wouldn't do much good if it were an activated FunPass, 7 day or even 30 day unlimited.
Tom
Here is the thing the the T/O who had the 12-9 Thursday at Spring St which the person lived went back to work Friday and had this 12-9 at Canal street. Having two 12-9's in 2 days is not good.
>>> Having two 12-9's in 2 days is not good. <<<
But the third one should be easier.
Tom
Considering the situation, it was foolish of her to risk her life just to get off at a stop. Assuming the train was THAT crowded, she could've waited and got off at a later stop and ride back in the opposite direction if possible. She may be late, but her life's intact.
She may be late, but her life's intact.
You forget the stupidity of some New Yorkers. Many of them think time is more important than their health. You ever see someone run for a train on a rainy day and when they get in can't stop and run into the doors on the other side or someone else? Ever see anyone go horizontal a la Superman? That shows a lot of people (not saying most or all, just a significant number) don't care what happens as long as they get on or off that train.
Silly me, how could I forget! :)
That makes 12-9 number 3 for the week.
Make that 5. One tonight at Canal and I heard there was another at 14/8 Friday.
On my way to work this morning I saw this big pile of debris close to Berth 1, and the area was roped off with yellow tape. The debris was stacked neatly, and looked like it had been brought there from somewhere else, and it didn't look like the station was being remodelled or anything. The pile consisted of old steel, plywood, and other building materials...the kind one sees in a demolition or remodelling project. Does anyone know what's going on?
Mark
Good News!
The war against scratchitti has finally begun!
Excellent!!!!!
Super Duper!
The R38's will have their windows replaced, but not the R40/42's????
I feel like I'm going to cry... I am so happy this is happening! Scratchiti artists: watch out!! Now I can hopefully look out a window with no problems soon!
"Scratchiti artists: watch out!!"
"Scratchiti artist" is an oxymoron.
I'm happy sad you found that out.
I was looking forward to an announcement that the R-68 four-car sets were being rearranged, with transverse cabs facing inward.
Oh well.
Wow, that must have been a major letdown! I could only wish they would do that.
sounds good. are the R142/R142A/R143 windows scratchitti-proof?
Yes, they have the special film already installed.
Great news.
The story from the Boston Globe.
The trains, at least, will still be a terrific bargain compared to New York.
The trains, at least, will still be a terrific bargain compared to New York.
And a huge bargain compared to SEPTA's $2.00 base fare!
Mark
SEPTA"S FARE IS NOT $2.00!!!! That is a MORON SINGLE RIDE CASH SURCHARGE. The real SEPTA fare is 1.30, which is the cost of a token. Savings realized when you buy just 2 or more.
That's why I specifically said base fare. I use a monthly transpass, so I don't pay the base fare, rest assured.
Mark
<<<THAT IS A MORON....<<<
Takes one to know one, eh Mike?
Peace,
ANDEE
The trains, at least, will still be a terrific bargain compared to New York.
And New York will still be a teriffic bargain compared to London.
New York: $2.00
London Zone 1 only single: £1.60 = $2.40
London Zones 1-6 single: £3.70 = $5.55
London Zones 1-D single: £5.50 = $8.25
I would expect they have some sort of discount pass system.
But since you now have to pay to drive into central London, the UndergrounD is still, in itself, a bargain.
"The trains, at least, will still be a terrific bargain compared to New York. "
False statement with regard to subway trains.
Commuter rail fares seem to be cheaper, though.
"Commuter rail fares seem to be cheaper, though."
That's an understatement! Take a look and compare most commuter rails, including Boston and Chicago. You pay a lot more in New York for the same amount of miles you ride the train. For instance, from Highland Park to Chicago (1 hour) is $7.00 round trip, and the trip from North Station to salem is around the same price. Westport CT to GCT? $17.75 round trip, and the fares are going up by 25% -Nick
Blame the excessivily high wages the unions have one for thier members
(Blame the excessivily high wages the unions have one for thier members )
You really do enjoy union bashing, don't you? They deserve it in some cases, but here you just haven't bothered to consider the facts.
Boston-Salem: 18 miles, high subsidy.
Chicago-Highland Park: 23 miles (I don't know about the subsidy).
NYC-Westport: 48 miles, CT has an unusually low subsidy.
It's also unfair that the Metro-North Union has much higher wages than NYC Transit. -Nick
Very true.
But they just HAD a fare increase. Come on, Boston is liberal land, free and affordable mass transit for all!
Take note, Mike - the article also said that SEPTA is mulling over a 25-cent fare increase, which would bring the base fare to $2.25. And we here in NYC haven't seen $1.25 since 1994.
I wonder how the following one-way fares in Boston may be affected:
D Line, Fenway-Resevoir: $1.25 increasing to $1.50?
D Line, Chestnut Hill-Riverside: $2.50 increasing to $3.00?
Outbound on Surface Areas of Green Line: Stays free of charge?
Red Line, Quincy Center: Entrance fare $2.00 increasing to $2.50? Maybe adding an exit fare too?
Red Line, Quincy Adams-Braintree: $2.00 increasing to $2.50?
(including exit fare)
-Nick
And it's still going to be way less than we're gonna be paying come May.
"And it's still going to be way less than we're gonna be paying come May"
Not really. With a Metrocard you'll pay less than 10% more than you would on the "T." And while the T is very decent, it has nowhere near the travel options and convenience the MTA offers you.
"And while the T is very decent, it has nowhere near the travel options and convenience the MTA offers you."
While I am not looking forward to the increased fare, I do understand why the MTA has to do this. At least when they have a budget crunch something is done to balance things out. The MBTA keeps getting farther and farther into debt. -Nick
Clearly, our sucking economy is having an effect up in Boston.
As the economy improves, ridership will, too. Using a car in Boston can be a nightmare.
Boston also needs to expand its rail network. Not just commuter rail, which has recently expanded and is undergoing further expansion, but the subway and streetcar lines too. We await the Silver Line's opening; I'd like to see anorthbound expansion of the Green Line past Lechmere, and a new branch off the Orange Line.
There has been talk of extending the Blue Line past the Wonderland dog racing track.
Of course, the Big Dig's gonna have to come to a conclusion (new Green Line stations, placing more of the Green Line underground, and a better interchange with the Orange Line).
Todd:
i remember the talk about night owl service starting, but haven't heard much since then. How has it gone over?
JEremy
Here is the text of the press release:
London Underground re-introduced a limited local service on the eastern end of the Central Line at 1300 today.
Trains are running between Leytonstone and Bethnal Green stations during normal Tube operating hours.
This is Phase One of a programme to restore a full service to the whole line.
We are emphasising that this is a local service only. Regular commuters from other stations are strongly advised to continue travelling by the alternative routes that they have been using while the line has been closed.
This is because the Phase One service will not be able to handle the levels of peak customer traffic carried before the Chancery Lane derailment.
London Underground and Transport for London will continue to provide the alternative bus services that have been running since the line was closed.
We are restoring services in phases because we want to be sure that we can sustain a service with the limited number of trains available, explained a spokesman. As more trains are modified and safety tested more phases will be introduced.
LU Managing Director Paul Godier said: “ I apologise to our customers and thank them for their patience during the suspension of the service. I realise it has been a difficult and exasperating time.
“Our engineers and depot staff have been working round the clock to modify the Central Line trains while at the same time ensuring we are meeting our exacting safety standards.
“ While inconvenienced, I believe our customers would not want us to run a service until we were 100 per cent sure that it is safe.”
Any of our London contributors able to get some pictures? It's after 13:00 in London now... I was hoping that they'd have restarted partial service when I was there last week but it didn't happen...
Say Dave, I checked out some of those copious pics of yours and am curious about the ones at Baker St. and Farringdon. Are those the original 1863 stations? The Baker St. station certainly looks as thought it is.
Yes, the Baker St. station that has the coffered side walls is original 1863. Today it's used by Circle and Hammersmith & City trains. The Baker St. station that the Metropolitan uses today is of later origin by five years (1868). Farringdon is also on the original 1863 segment and I think was the terminus until 1865 when the line extended to Moorgate.
Cool. Thanks.
As soon as I get there I will send over a few. Shold be up there later this week.
Simon
Swindon UK
Who created their stock? This is defintly bringing back memories of the R-44, R-46 fiasco's, I guess another railcar company bites the dust now. Shutting down an entire subway line, london proves that it needs a new type of subway car. That can run on all lines, and not have a certain stock for a subway line, then again, they do, but not like the MTA.
London has a similar situation to New York: different sets of specifications for rolling stock depending on where they run. The older lines built by cut-and-cover use bigger trains while the deep tube lines have smaller rolling stock with rounded-off roofs.
Among the deep tube lines, Central line is the only one that has a different third rail spec. The third rail on the outside is positionned higher than on the other lines. This is due to the smaller diameter of the tubes in the original Central London Railway sections. Central London Railway originally used a between-the-rails third rail current collection system.
Most other tube lines' trains are interchangeable and can also run on sub-surface spec lines, too. An exception would be the 1973 stock on the Picadilly, which cars are longer than standard tube stock.
I also rode on the Central Line in 1978 - once - and for one stop to Tottenham Court Rd. en route to the British Museum.
Wow. 1978... I was living there... in London. Punk scene full blown...
My nearest stations were Finchley Rd., Swiss Cottage and South Hampstead. It's been a while...
Then they would have to make it the size of the smaller tube line trains, and that would force riders on the sub-surface lines to deal with smaller trains than what they are used to now. It would be like putting IRT-sized cars on the E and F lines (and you definitely wouldn't want to do that!)
The deep tube stock is in principle interchangeable between the different lines though, as has been pointed out on this thread, the Central Line has a higher third rail position, and thus trains would need modification if transferred between the Central and other lines. The Victoria and Central Lines have ATO, the others don't, and this also limits interchangeability. The physical interconnections between the different lines are somewhat limited, which means that movements of stock between lines tend to be minimised and in general the same stock stays on the same line. Familiarity of T/Os and maintenance staff with the stock is another reason for keeping one type per line. Finally, even if all the stock was easily interchangeable, there was not enough spare stock lying around for an entire fleet of 700 cars to be replaced temporarily while it is being modified.
The sub-surface stock is also in principle interchangeable between different subsurface lines. In this case, transfer between lines would be easier since all the subsurface lines interconnect.
Some above-ground sections of line have historically been moved from subsurface lines to deep tube lines. The Stanmore branch was originally Metropolitan (subsurface) and then became Bakerloo and later still Jubilee (both deep tube) thus getting the smaller trains. Similarly the Hounslow (now Heathrow Airport) and Acton Town-Rayners Lane lines were transferred from the subsurface District Line to the deep tube Piccadilly Line. The erstwhile Northern City Line between Finsbury Park and Moorgate (which has a large cross-section tunnel) originally had Metropolitan Line trains, then became part of the Northern Line with small trains, and then became a British Rail (now WAGN) line with suburban rolling stock. But you can't run subsurface trains in most of the deep tubes, of course!
That would be like running R68s on the 1 train through the South Ferry loop! But didn't commuters along the Stanmore, Hounslow and Rayners Lane complain when they got the smaller tube stock? I defintely would like to railfan the London Underground, especially the outdoor sections. I always did like the futuristic look of the Tube trains, except for the lack of a window in the cab doors or walls to let the passengers see out the front of the trains.
"But didn't commuters along the Stanmore, Hounslow and Rayners Lane complain when they got the smaller tube stock?"
Nothing that I've read about the Tube says people complained (it was a while ago - maybe people complained less then). I must admit I try to use the subsurface lines in preference to the deep tubes; the Piccadilly Line going west from Kings Cross is my pet hate because of its extreme overcrowding, which is very unpleasant with those small-profile trains and no air-conditioning. For my moderately regular Kings Cross-Hammersmith trips I prefer the Hammersmith & City despite its 10-minute scheduled headways: it gives me the historic 1863 tunnel section first, then the nearest thing to a London el above Shepherds Bush Market later on, and finally the pretty little ground-level Victorian terminus at Hammersmith. The District Line Wimbledon branch is another favourite of mine - that also gets el-like around Putney Bridge.
One of these days, I'm going to there to see it. I just need to remember that I can only look out from the sides of the trains.
But didn't commuters along the Stanmore, Hounslow and Rayners Lane complain when they got the smaller tube stock?
Of course not. They got more service, despite the trains being smaller. That was the reason that the Stanmore branch and the District Fast Lines were cut across to other lines - to get trains around bottlenecks (the Met goes down to two tracks South of Finchley Road as does the District at Baron's Court).
Good news.
From Sunday March 16, the limited Central Line service is extended to Woodford-Bethnal Green (no doubt to the great relief of my friends who live in Woodford!), according to www.thetube.com.
March 18th update.
Woodford-Bethnal Green is running on a five-minute headway using eleven trains - that is 88 cars. Add the 20 cars that make up five four-car trains on the Waterloo and City Line, that means that 108 of the 700 cars are back in service.
Thetube.com is saying that only "local" passengers should use the Woodford-Bethnal Green shuttle, and the reason for not running it to Liverpool Street is to avoid excessive overcrowding at Liverpool Street station. (Presumably Hainault depot is running this shuttle.)
All the extra bus services are still running. Despite this advice, I would guess that lots of commuters will make the cross-platform connection at Mile End, and use the District Line to reach their offices in The City and the West End.
The next thing to be added when they have more trains available will be a similar shuttle at the western end of the line (presumably to be run by West Ruislip depot). Earlier they had said that such a shuttle would run to Marble Arch, but we'll have to wait and see. There is no good connecting point (comparable to Mile End) at the western side. If everyone tried to change at Notting Hill Gate they would overwhelm the infrequent and unreliable Circle Line service. No firm prediction on when through running will restart - but not before mid-April. My guess (based on no evidence!) would be that they'll utilise the long Easter weekend (in the UK both Good Friday and Easter Monday are public holidays giving a four-day weekend) for a gentle restart. Schools are out then too, reducing traffic.
The thread of the redbirds going to sea, and me trying to find a photo of the Mets train, 9413, in the roster section made me notice that we can now click on individual car #'s if we want to see photos of them! I don't think that was always like that, but either way -- Nice Touch!
I've only done that for the retiring redbirds, and it only shows one particular image of the car (even if I have many). It's been there for a while; it was just an attempt to create an illustrated roster. Otherwise you can browse the captions list for each car type which is listed in car number order to quickly find all pictures of a given car.
You're new system for viewing these pictures really bites, though. I preferred the direct link, not the ?perl window. Makes linking a pic to a post a major pain in the @ss.
Thanks for the new R16/D-type scans though. I always appreciate new content.
Yeah, you got to click "view source", to get the link to post a photo in post now.
>>> you got to click "view source", to get the link to post a photo in post now <<<
Am I the only one with a browser that you can right click and get a menu that includes "view image" to see only the picture, and "copy image location" to post links?
Tom
There's underprivileged kids out there who don't have Netscape technology. They live in a poor land known as Aiyee. Give until it hurts or Sally Struthers will blubber all over your screen saver. :)
Hmmmm, maybe I should dump IE.
Sorry but if you look at just about any other large photo site (abpr.railfan.net and airliners.net come to mind immediately) they "inline" the large image in a page with caption and credit data. But nothing's stopping you from "viewing image" in your browser, or view source, to get the actual image URL (which I *DO* *NOT* promise will always be the same!) for linking.
But nothing's stopping you from "viewing image" in your browser, or view source, to get the actual image URL (which I *DO* *NOT* promise will always be the same!) for linking
Well actually, for those that don't know how to do it, I think you have to kind of "cross" the link on the photo page with the link in the "view source".
(unless there is an easier way that I don't know about)
For example for THIS photo, the new "photo on the page" URL is:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3010.jpg
But the "view source" link is:
/img/i3000/img_3010.jpg
You got to kind of marry them together to get the link for the photo you can post by getting rid off everything after www.nycsubway.org from the "new style" page link, and adding the view source link to it to get:
< img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3010.jpg" >
to post the photo:
Hey, it's an R-16!
The best subway car ever built! :-)
That ought to start a thread!
You weren't around when they started to fall apart.
No doubt this is how you remember them:
And this is how I remember them:
That's how I remember them also. I hated the R16's when I used to ride them. Now I only wish one of those disasters would pull into the station!
I still remember them in their original olive drab, number curtains, and straight door pockets. They were actually clean then.
That's close!
I don't remember the headlights.
I wonder when they were installed.
Between 1961 and 1963, according to Gene Sansone's book.
Well since this photo is posted I have a question. I can't remember for the life of me if the stairway in the photo still exists (or even recently existed). Obviously, this has to be the soon-to-be-abandoned Queens platform because of the bare, untiled columns. I also ussume we are looking north, at a train on the "local" track. I don't think there are (or were recently) any exits goin up from the Queens platform, I think they all went down. The Broad street platform still does have a stairway that goes up.
Also, where did all the closed "down" stairways on the Queens platform go. Was there another mezzanine there somewhere?
Sorry about the typo, obviously I meant "assume".
Also, I forgot to mention, look at the sign by the stairway. It says trains to "Broadway Brooklyn, Ridgewood, Canarsie, East New York", etc.
The sign says "To: Bowery Essex Streets" on top...or at least to me it does.
You are right.
When I saw the photo in your previous post, I nearly jumped. I had no idea there was ever a staircase leading up from that platform.
Two lead down to the lower level (Q/W) platform. A third one was boarded up in green-painted plywood (I think it's behind the temporary plywood wall now); IINM, it led to a lower level mezzanine with an exit on the east side of Centre, and I think it was closed in the late 80's or early 90's (but you should know better than most of us).
Great Idea
Yes, very nice touch indeed ! I found it a great way to see some of the different colors that the fleet wore over the years.
With so many on this site that love to reminisce it is a fantastic part of the friendly service < grin >
I am looking for a list of stations (or itineraries) that feature either murals, mosaics (other than station names)or sculpture.
Have you looked on the MTA site at the Arts for Transit section?
To be specific:
http://www.mta.info/mta/aft/
Hilarious. I check the 7 section and for the trio of stations that lay along the concrete on Queens Blvd, they misspell Rawson as 'Lawson.'
I'm going to San Francisco at the end of May. Does anyone know if Air BART will be up and running by then, or will I have to get to and from teh airport the hard way?
Mark
Check the BART site:
http://www.bart.gov/news/press/news_5919.asp
That site says that the opening has been delayed from its planned date in January, but gives no new projected opening date.
Mark
Then I guess you'll have go to and from the airport the hard way.
Best thing to do is keep checking the BART site up until the date of your trip. That way you will know if they have it open.
That's probably what I'll do. It's not a big deal. I'm going to be renting a car anyway. I just wanted to know if I'd have to rent one the night I arrived or if I could save a few bucks and wait to rent it until I needed to travel away from the Bay Area.
Thanks for the link,
Mark
>>> Then I guess you'll have go to and from the airport the hard way. <<<
Unless you have the option to fly into Oakland. You can catch BART there (with short bus shuttle by BART) for a quick trip through the Trans Bay tube to downtown San Francisco (fare: $2.85). It is faster than driving from the San Francisco airport during rush hours.
Tom
The last date was.....TODAY!!! But I think they reschedules even this one.....
Tonight at 5 on channel 7, there will be an article about people purchasing redbirds. I guess some are being put up for sale. They should have done this earlier before so many cars were already scrapped. Cars like 8660 would have been a collector's item.
If you watch it, please report back here what they say, because I will not be able to watch it. Why are we railfans the last ones to know about this? We should have known about this BEFORE the sale started so we could have had the pick of the crop.
---Brian
You have space for a 51 foot subway car?
I'd like to think I would MAKE space if the oppurtunity arose. Like say at a trolley museum. Plus my parents live out in the country. I could probably put in in someone's field, or in the woods. This is a Redbird we're talking about! They should be preserved at all costs :)
---Brian
I'd like to think I would MAKE space if the oppurtunity arose. Like say at a trolley museum. Plus my parents live out in the country. I could probably put in in someone's field, or in the woods. This is a Redbird we're talking about! They should be preserved at all costs :)
I would imagine that the transportation costs would be quite high.
Back in the 1970's I had an opportunity to buy an R/9 for $500..
..but I would have had to pay all the transportation charges which would have been much much more.
Larry, is that why heypaul has a cab in his apartment and not you? :)
Yes, heypaul got his cab parts from the same guy who quoted me that price! Popeye from Sarnelli Bros.
Popeye from Sarnelli? Well, blow me down! I gots to eat me spinach! :)
He should have hired Bluto to carry that car for him!:)
Larry, is that why heypaul has an R-9 cab in his apartment and not you? :)
Ow ... if only I had a wayback machine and unlimited funds. I could easily fit a couple hundred of them here today. Back then, I was living in da Bronx - my landlord would have had a CANARY.
Fix the redbird up with some curtains and decent furniture and you won't need a landlord! Back where I come from a redbird on a peice of land out in the woods is what we call a "starter home."
: )
Mark
Heh. Nah, we've already got a money pit sunk into the side of a hill. If I had the scratch to get some birdies, I'd put them out on rails, provide electricity and RUN them. Fix up CI Peter with a room for his vacation and let him have some fun with them out on the lawn. Got 7 acres of layup land here and 12 miles of available track to run them on. Laying in third rail would take a while though, as would replacing some iron that needs it. Of course, aquiring the abandoned track from CP Rail wouldn't come cheap either, but it's a pretty straight run with a nice gentle grade. It'd make for one hell of a nice run.
But let's get real - if whole cars really WERE for sale, a few museums would want first dibs. I'll take what's left. :)
"If I had the scratch to get some birdies, I'd put them out on rails, provide electricity and RUN them. Fix up CI Peter with a room for his vacation and let him have some fun with them out on the lawn."
Also if you had the extra scratch, hire Stef,BMTman and Thurston to paint your birdies !!
Bill "Newkirk"
If I had THAT much scratch, I'd HIRE them and print a daily schedule. We've already got an Earl Scheib nearby. Heh. But the REAL question is should I buy stock in BONDO first? :)
You rang?!? Stef is at your service, kind sir!
-Stef
^^^"Also if you had the extra scratch, hire Stef,BMTman and Thurston to paint your birdies !!"^^^
Gentz,
Completion of the previous project is prerequisite before graduating
to the next grade. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Hmmm, I live a half mile from the LIRR and a siding there.......Interesting........I'd love to have one, but it would be cost prohibitive.
Imagine though, whenever I get the longing to ride in a Redbird, I could just go into my yard.....Maybe I could have someone outside shake it around so it would feel like it was moving.
>>> Maybe I could have someone outside shake it around so it would feel like it was moving. <<<
Or hire a couple of homeless winos to share the interior with you to get the whole subway riding experience. :-)
Tom
Just hide it on the Dyre Avenue express track and nobody will notice.
if I bought one, I'd repaint it to its original blue scheme. Sweet!
I bet everyone is still fighting their way get the rollsign.
Me thinks that the story is exaggerated and that they really mean to do a report on people purchasing Redbird PARTS and NOT whole cars...
The media needs to fill up space. It's appears people are tired of Terrorism and Iraq at the moment... Count Elizabeth Smart as more filler. :)
As long as the white stuff remains an issue, it could be very difficult to buy RT Cars for quite sometime....
I'm glad this wasn't an issue in 1988 when BERA made it's purchase of Car 6688.
-Stef
ROTFLMFAO
BTW, is the broker Raging Used Car Sales? They also have some Red Arrows FOR SALE! >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Geez, what yaw spill the beans for ... now we ain't gonna be able to
sell that bridge or the ocean front property in Arizona or ice to the
Eskimos. Your no fun Buddy, gotta find the funds for the new coat
for Stef's "Lady In Red". >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Plenty of room for them up here if the story turns out to be "Redbirds on the half shell" ... Piggo12 was up here over the weekend and I showed him our watts for tots fountain as well as the 12 miles of track that they could roam free upon. Even showed him how much layup space there is on the property here. Let's do it! :)
Fo' Snizzle!
Shake ... ummm ... stop shaking, gimme yer paw. :)
We need to get some IND rolling stock up there for a nice joyride.:)
If you can find some, be happy to ... track gauge is the same whether A or B division. And we'll be using Rubbermaid step stools for boarding for a while. Only real requirement up here is working heaters, and a bear catcher on the lead car. :)
I'll play conductor - and no fair cutting out the breakers or throwing drum switches, either.
I would not mind having a redbird. Problem is, a redbird is bigger than my apartment. I wouldn't mind having the motorman's cab cut out with controls and all intact and placed in my bedroom. Create a new videogame for railfans: " SimRedbird". With controller, brake handle, reverse and cutting keys, and a legit simulator program. And the motormans' cab will give it an authentic feel, like the real thing. Of course that means I'll never leave my house and go back to work again. That's why I have high hope on that T.O. exam coming soon.
Ask heypaul to give you a hand with that Redbird cab in your apartment. He is something of an expert in the area of cab's being erected in domaciles (sp?). :)
It's "domicile" for the "retentive types" who completely lose it over a misspelled word, but talk of people having "erections" in their apartments (even if it involves a subway cab) is woefully off-topic. Go to your room. :)
Didn't you have that feeling when you saw 1689 last fall?:)
Heh. It was real nice seeing an old friend again, but I suppose I fail in my primary function as a foamer. For ME, the big thrill was getting to meet so many people I knew from here and other places and in general just checking out Branford itself. Taking 1689 out for a few runs in the cab was nice, but the REAL kick was being around everybody else.
I mighta been a bit more foamy if I hadn't been so extremely tired from the week's workload coming up to the outing and a major lack of sleep the night before. Perhaps it might have been hard to get me out of the cab. Truth be told though, after a couple of trips just to feel her out, I would have REALLY gotten my own yayas running the PCC or one of the trolleys since THAT would have been something "new" for me. :)
Well, you did say that working for the TA cured you of foaming. I guess it's a good analogy to meeting someone you hadn't seen in over 30 years. I met an old high school friend whom I hadn't seen in 25 years when we came out for my nephew's baptism four years ago. This fellow actually lived down the street from us in Jersey. It was good to see him again.
It was VERY nice seeing 1689 in such GREAT condition, peeling paint aside which didn't really bother me since they looked like that on the ROAD when I worked them, so to my own twisted mind, the authenticity and perfection to truth after 30 years was nothing short of astounding. And doing a paint job would have risked all of the ORIGINAL decals and other parts of the car that would likely have been damaged by a paint job in the interior. The MECHANICAL condition of the car was better than most on the road that I ran, aside from a bit of funniness in the brake stand. But that TOO was prototypical of the cars back when they were actually ON the railroad. Word cannot describe how *impressed* I was with Branford's care of the car! :)
So that was nice and all - I got more of a kick out of looking over 2775, stepping onto trolleys that I'd NEVER seen before, a short walk through the BRT cars and the IRT oldies, but above all finding out just how KEWL Thurston, Lou, Sparky, Jeff and the rest of the Branford folks were, getting to meet Ripta, and Subwaysurf and Anon E Mouse, Peter the Pole and many many more, and chowing down at both ends of the day with everybody. Now THAT was sweet.
Trains are cool and all, but the PEOPLE I met that day *made* the trip. You too, buddy! :)
The feeling is mutual, my friend.
Of course, what really stood out was the first word out of your mouth that morning after you blew your four-tone whistle: moo.:)
I did feel the need to let folks know who that stranger was. After all, among the Branford crowd, a train whistle isn't exactly a unique identifier. :)
Don't tell the people over at the TLC channel. The Trading Spaces crew will put one in someone's living room.
Hey, put it in my room. But the destination side signs have to light up. Any of you guys see the episode where they turned a bedroom into a Pullman Car?
Yeah. Really didn't interest me. Pullman cars that don't go anywhere aren't any fun.
Obviously, the folks who had their bedroom changed that way weren't railfans, or even train-friendly, since it was revealed sometime later that the room was restored to its original condition.
The more you watch TV, the more you realize that much that is broadcast validates H.L. Mencken's comment that "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."
Spoken in the 1930's, still very valid today.
Even more so. Back in the 30's, folks could spot their home province on a map. :)
Pullman cars that don't go anywhere aren't any fun.
Have you been to the Holiday Inn in Indianapolis?
--Mark
No, and my original comment stands.
Part of the hotel consists of actual Pullman cars redone into hotel rooms, and part of the hotel itself is part of the old Union Station. It is really, really well done.
--Mark
Paige Davis WILL provide the test. If you pay more attention to the Redbird than her, YOU'RE A ***F*O*A*M*E*R***
Great...
They could sell Redbirds and people could then turn them into diners.
OR, some railroad could by 'em, turn them into a freight or work diesel loco, storage shed, or retrofit them with a pantograph to let them run as trolley car or electric locos (take the seats out!)
Old cars never die and them have many uses!
I would have to agree that an old railroad passenger car including a subway car has many end uses. Maybe someone could buy a "Redbird" and put it into their backyard provided that they have enough space.
#3 West End Jeff
Good idea, but......
How do the local zoning boards (almost everywhere except out in the "boonies" AKA west/east nowhere).
Back in 1964, when BTC was scrapping the streetcars after the 11/3/63 conversion, the cars were being resold by the scrappers. A bunch of us (all 16-22 years old at the time) were going to buy one of our 1907 Lewis & Fowler speepers for the price of $100.00. (which would have been easy, it figured to be 10 bucks per man. Didn't get it, since we couldn't take it to the Lake Roland site (where the other Baltimore cars were stored) due to political problems and everywhere else had zoning that didn't permit it.
Anyone who is considering buying an old subway car should check with their local zoning board first becuase many areas will not permit people to keep an old railroad car on their property to my best guess.
#3 West End Jeff
So, what did the news report say?
bump! Answer my previous post!
I didn't see the story. I was working that evening. I only heard about it on the 12:00 newscasts "coming up at 5" announcement, and posted so others could see it.
I'm sorry I didn't answer you before, but I hadn't had much time to read the whole thread, and lost track of it.
I read through all the responses and didn't see anymore info about price and conditions. I'm serious about getting one. =)
I'm beginning to think that there *was no report*. If there was, ahem, Eric B, please tell us what it said.
---Brian
My mom actually told me about the report that she saw the preview for but she (and I) missed the actual report.
Tis a shame. But thanks for the update.
I did, and have it on tape.
So? What did it say? Please tell me.
I saw it ... they did some shots of the storage room at MTA headquarters, showed some roll signs (without covers), some exp/lcl signs and a few other things on shelves and piled in heaps and invited everybody to come to WABC's web page to find out how to find the MTA page that we've all seen. The story was a complete waste of time for subtalkers ...
The reason there aren't any covers is because the cover was part of the car wall, not the sign unit itself. If you order a sign (like I did), they will give you the roll box and if it is available, the cover. You can do what you want with the cover but I was told if you try to align it with the rolls, it won't work. I will have to figure all this out for myself once the merchandise is sent to me. The person who I spoke to said if a cover was available, he would send it to me.
I also bought the front roll signs (destination and route), two grab bars, and a side number plate. The rest of the stuff didn't interest me, not to mention I only have so much money and space to put the stuff.
Oh, I know ... and there's plenty of folks who'll get down with whittling wood until they can make it work. What was particularly amusing though about the WABC footage was that it looked like a garbage dump there at TA HQ and a lot of the stuff that was commanding $300 and more looked ... well ... pretty well trashed.
Even more amusing is how the anchor desk droids busted chops on the reporter after the slug was shown. If I was in "surplus property" at the MTA, I'd provide security with pictures of that crew and place orders to shoot to maim if they ever entered the building again. :)
That's the nice thing about R-1/9 sign boxes - they were completely intact even after being removed from the car. You could tell they used bolt cutters on the box I bought, because all the screws that fastened the box to the outside of the car had been cut off. I managed to get them all out with the help of lots of Liquid Wrench.
Thanks for finally telling me this.
Sorry it took so long - I thought someone else answered this a LONG LONG time ago. :(
I kinda gave people hints even BEFORE the story aired...ah, Philistines!
Well, nice to know that channel seven had a foamer - of course, after the razzing she got from her own, she'll NEVER set foot in the subway again. Man, what a LAME report. :(
I saw R-33 cars being dumped into the Atlantci Ocean in the Daily News yesterday. Which redbirds are now left and will not be scrapped? How many redbirds are left in service. Will any be preserved for nostalgia trips? I hope so.
Redbirds (most of them R36s) are found on the 7. About 250-300 are left on the 7, around 150 R33s on the 4/5. The main line Redbirds may by gone by summer, the 7's could well last into 2004.
What do you think was the biggest mistake - design or otherwise - made on the IRT pre-Unification? City Hall on a loop instead of a main line station? Stations too close to each other? Side platforms at BB, 14th and 96th?
Terminating the 7 at Times Square, rather than running it farther west, could be seen as a mistake. Even though much of the far west side was less developed in the early 20th century, there was a great deal of activity around the Hudson piers, enough that the 7 probably could have run out to the waterfront area and still had heavy ridership.
Or even better, tying it into the 9th Av el.
But the line turned and went up where you see the curve from the shuttle now, along Broadway. Cutting off the shuttle was an afterthought and, since they wouldn't have built a flyover to the sorry old west side docklands back then, the opportunity was lost.
But the line turned and went up where you see the curve from the shuttle now, along Broadway. Cutting off the shuttle was an afterthought and, since they wouldn't have built a flyover to the sorry old west side docklands back then, the opportunity was lost.
Not *that* line, the Steinway Tunnel Line. That was never part of the old main line, nor was it ever part of the present shuttle.
By Times Square, it is under 41st Street, and at a level well below the existing BMT and IRT trains at that location. It *could* have continue to the waterfront, and indeed its tail tracks run almost to 8th Avenue as it is.
Since the line was much older than the IND tracks in that area, There is no reason why it could not have continued to the Water Front.
Except they didn't feel like doing it.
Elias
Oh, major whoops. I identify the shuttle so heavily with IRT and the 7 with old purple things screeching up at a funny-lit platform, I forget that it's IRT as well. What's this I hear about suspending the Slideway Funnel? Never Mind.
Wasn't that done during the Dual Contracts with the BMT rather? That's wasn't pre-IRT unification, or am I mistaken?
Definitely the el loading gauge.
Mark
And the moving platforms.
Mark
City Hall on a loop instead of a main line station? Stations too close to each other? Side platforms at BB, 14th and 96th?
I think City Hall is close enough to Brooklyn Bridge that it didn't really matter that it was on a loop. To this day, along with South Ferry, it does turn trains fast for both the 6 and the 1.
I think the biggest mistake was many of the curves the original IRT has. That along with them not thinking that the stations were too short to begin with, necessitating the expansion of the platforms soon after it was built.
Since the lower Broadway businesses didn't want the IRT there, the curves south of Times Square weren't really preventable. Putting stations on the curves, however, was a mistake, which I would put up there as the main structural problem with the IRT as built, along with the grade crossings at 135th, 149th and the Lex/Seventh Ave. crossover before Nostrand Ave. (the narrower cars come across as a mistake now, but they weren't in the first two decades of the 20th Century, since it allowed the IRT to interconnect its Manhattan els and subway lines in the Bronx and at Queensboro Plaza).
The biggest non-strutural mistake the IRT made was signing that agreement to lock in the system's fare at 5 cents. But that was a problem for the BRT/BMT as well...
(the narrower cars come across as a mistake now, but they weren't in the first two decades of the 20th Century, since it allowed the IRT to interconnect its Manhattan els and subway lines in the Bronx and at Queensboro Plaza).
The BMT ran narrow IRT sized cars on it's larger scale elevated lines into the 1960's. If the IRT was built to BMT specs, these el/subway connections could have still been made.
The BMT's first 10-footers came a decade after the IRT came into existance. If the composites had been built to 10-foot width, once it was decided no wooden caros would be used underground, the IRT would have been forced to cut back the platforms on all the Manhattan elevated lines to avoid eating a very large investment.
If Belmont had opted to compete with the elevated lines from Day 1 instead of buying them out and merging much of their northern and eastern operations with the existing lines, then starting with 10-foot wide cars would have made sense. But doing that would also have kept the IRT from utiliing some of the Manhattan el's already-existing maintenance facilities when the systerm first began operations.
But August wanted complete control of the borough's rail transportation, and at the same time didn't want the possibility of the wider railroad freight cars finding there way onto his subway lines. A decade later when the dual contract lines were being built, that fear had passed, but with a new subway system that as of the start of construction in 1900 had no set groundrules, his fears and those of others working for the company probably didn't seem as farfetched.
The BMT's first 10-footers came a decade after the IRT came into existance. If the composites had been built to 10-foot width, once it was decided no wooden caros would be used underground, the IRT would have been forced to cut back the platforms on all the Manhattan elevated lines to avoid eating a very large investment.
Not really. No Manhattan elevated lines connected into the subway. It was the Manhattan elevated which connected to the elevated subway lines, like the 9th Ave el to the Jerome Ave line, the 2nd Ave el to the Flushing/Astoria lines and the 2nd/3rd Ave. els to the White Plains Road line. If the BMT could use 9' wide el cars on lines built for 10' subway cars (like the Q's north of Wykoff), why not on the IRT?
But the IRT never wanted the composites in the first place -- they just couldn't find a steel car builder. Once they had enough steel cars, the composites were banshed to the els. Had they been 10-foot wide cars, they would have had to cut back the platforms to accommodate only 500 cars, while the remainder would have gotten the overhanging platform extenders.
While the attitude towards a one-foot gap between the platform and the train would have been far more tolerant in the era around WWI than 75 years later, having the bulk of the Manhattan el fleet coping with the gap on all of their lines wouldn't have been somthing the Interboro would have pushed (some lady got her leg caught Thursday inbetween the platform and a No. 6 train at 51st St., so you can be sure similar problems would have cropped up with the wider opening on the Manhattan platforms, which were more crowded at rush hour than the Myrtle el north of Broadway or the Fulton el outside of East New York or the Downtown Brooklyn stops).
Since the IRT and the els were intertwined in some way from 1904 until 1973, standardizing the two lines' equipment wasn't a mistake, though I can't say that merging the lines in the first place wasn't an error, given what would eventually become of the original el routes.
The biggest non-strutural mistake the IRT made was signing that agreement to lock in the system's fare at 5 cents. But that was a problem for the BRT/BMT as well...
A terrible decision in retrospect, but at the time the IRT and BRT entered into the agreements several decades had passed with almost no inflation. Forswearing any fare increases didn't seem such a bad idea at the time.
I don't think either of those is a mistake. The loop allows locals to short-turn quickly without interfering with through express service. (The station itself was never very important.) The side platforms offered a degree of crowd control while they could be used, and now, even though they're not used, they don't get in the way.
What I find most problematic are the inflexible junctions at Rogers (or Borough Hall) and at 96th, which force locals and expresses to cross paths for some desireable moves. Why couldn't they have been designed like 125th?
(What I find most problematic are the inflexible junctions at Rogers (or Borough Hall) and at 96th, which force locals and expresses to cross paths for some desireable moves.)
It would be nice to have flying junctions at those places. But even with flying junctions, mix and match allocation of trains causes delays. Presumably that's why the TA doesn't do it at W 4th or Dekalb, even though some people want to travel straight up 6th Ave and some people want to go from the Brighton line to the Montague tunnel.
Merging delays can be minimized through scheduling while still maintaining full headways.
Crossing delays reduce actual capacity.
I agree that the mergers are the worst remaining problem on the IRT, which otherwise has many advantages over the other divisions. It would be nice to have one express from 242nd and one local from 137th on the Broadway line, as originally designed, but the merge precludes it.
However, the worst decision up front was the short local stations spaced too close together. The IND had the right idea -- half mile for locals, four times that for express, ewith xpress stops throughout the CBD.
The IRT, in it's original configuration, was basically an elevated line built underground. Train sizes and lengths were practically identical. This mistake was recognized quickly, because all IRT lines outside the original line and the Steinway tunnels were built to be adaptable to BMT specs. I think one of the biggest IRT mistakes was the partitioning of the original line, thus forcing the whole system to use the smaller cars.
Yes, you've probably named the biggest mistake. The upper Lex and lower 7th Av IRT would doubtlessly have been INDed by now.
But then, they saved lots of money by not undercutting 42nd, or building a 4-track x-town from Lex to 7th under one or more narrow side streets.
I preferred the old triboro plan, which would have given the Lexington Ave line (full length from 18th St north) and the 7th Ave line to the BRT.
I disagree, and ridership patterns back me up. If closely spaced IRT local stations were a mistake, then one would expect IRT expresses to be much more crowded than IRT locals, while IND locals would be about as crowded as their express counterparts. In fact, IRT locals tend to be more crowded than IRT expresses, while on the IND, the only overcrowding problems at all are on the express.
The two systems, I would argue, support different patterns of settlement. The IRT system, with many conveniently located stations along each line, promotes high-density residence all up and down the line, but predominantly closer in. The IND system, with fewer local stations and long express runs, promotes lower-density residence, clustered mostly near express stations and at or even past the end of the line.
But despite all the complaints about, e.g., 18th Street on the 1/9, it's a pretty busy station.
(In fact, IRT locals tend to be more crowded than IRT expresses, while on the IND, the only overcrowding problems at all are on the express.)
You may be right about the IND, based on the A and C trains in Brooklyn, but then the Fulton Street line has many express stations, including Utica and Nostrand, so it's like the IRT. In Queens, if the express didn't stop at Roosevelt Avenue, loading would be balanced.
As for the IRT, my rush hour experience is limited, but different from yours. When I lived in Kingsbridge, Bronx many people got off the local at 96th for the express, which became much more crowded. In Brooklyn, the northbound 4/5 is much more crowded than the northbound 6 AM, the reverse is true PM.
As for what encouraged what, I think the subway followed the development patterns, not the other way round. The IRT was mimicking Els and competing with trolleys in already dense Manhattan. The IND was built to put the BMT out of business, and the BMT has more widely spaced stations in some places, having evolved from railroads. The IND promised an even faster trip.
For my part, I only have a local train.
A few months ago, I posted 1996 crowding statistics for each IRT line at the CBD boundaries. The most crowded was the 6, followed by the 1/9 -- that's right, the 1/9 was more crowded than not only the 2/3 but even the 4/5. Some people do get off the 1/9 at 96th for the express, but most stay on unless an express is across the platform. (I get on at 86th and I often have to fight my way onto the train.) Even if everyone jumps ship at 96th, the ensuing local stations are busy enough to fill those locals up again -- 86th, 79th, 66th, and 50th alone generate more passengers than the entire line north of 137th. As for Brooklyn, yes, the 4/5 was more crowded than the 2/3, but the local and the express go to different places.
If closely spaced IRT local stations were a mistake, then one would expect IRT expresses to be much more crowded than IRT locals, while IND locals would be about as crowded as their express counterparts. In fact, IRT locals tend to be more crowded than IRT expresses, while on the IND, the only overcrowding problems at all are on the express.
I take the IRT from Penn Station to Houston Street every morning, and I can say without hesitation that the 2 and 3 are much more crowded than the 1/9, not even close. True, the 1/9 is getting close to the end of its run by that point, but not too many people on the 2 and 3 are going into Brooklyn so that shouldn't matter.
Peak IRT crowding is north of 42nd. I agree that south of 42nd the express is more crowded, but neither the express nor the local is terribly crowded.
Especially off-peak. Ride a northbound train around midnight and you'll see what I mean -- totally empty until 42nd and crush loaded from there on.
The local stations south of 42nd aren't very busy. Many of the people you see on the express are going from the Upper West Side to the Wall Street area. Many of them start out on the local but transfer to the express at 72nd or 42nd.
The East Side is similar. The 6 is practically a ghost town south of 42nd.
I wouldn't say ghost town, but it does lose passengers in the midtown business district. The rear sections of the 6 (downtown) tend to empty out around 23rd St., while the front sections in PM rush usually hang on until Bleecker (though with the Manny B repairs, that transfer isn't as important as in the past).
The local stations south of 42nd aren't very busy. Many of the people you see on the express are going from the Upper West Side to the Wall Street area. Many of them start out on the local but transfer to the express at 72nd or 42nd.
There's an interesting station-by-station pattern on the 1/9 in the mornings between Penn and Houston. Quite a few people exit at 28th, mainly young people who probably are F.I.T. students. Not much entering volume there. 23rd and 18th are fairly quiet, with a rough balance of entrances and exits. Despite being a major transfer point, 14th is quieter than you might guess. Christopher gets heavy entering volume, mostly PATH riders headed to lower Manhattan, needless to say the volume will drop considerably when the WTC PATH station reopens. Finally, Houston gets very heavy exiting volume, probably making it one of the busier local stations in the system.
I assume you're referring to the morning rush. I'm sure patterns are different off-peak.
Which car are your observations from? I'm guessing it's toward the front, since the transfers at 14th are from around the ninth car.
I'm surprised many people get on at 23rd and 18th. Entering volumes at 18th are low enough that the SB booth is part-time.
I assume you're referring to the morning rush. I'm sure patterns are different off-peak.
Which car are your observations from? I'm guessing it's toward the front, since the transfers at 14th are from around the ninth car.
I'm surprised many people get on at 23rd and 18th. Entering volumes at 18th are low enough that the SB booth is part-time.
Correct, these are morning rush observations. Usually from around 8:35 to 8:45. Evening rush doesn't seem to offer as clear-cut station-by-station patterns.
With regard to 14th, surprisingly enough I'm usually fairly far back in the train, 7th or 8th car most of the time, and yet there's less transfer volume than I'd expect. Can't figure it out.
I guess 14th probably isn't a big rush hour transfer point. The Canarsie line and the Lower East Side aren't big rush hour destinations, at least not with the UWS and Penn Station crowds, and points along 6th Avenue itself are accessed by getting off wherever and walking the block outdoors.
(The 6 is practically a ghost town south of 42nd.)
Slight exaggeration. If I get onto a 6 northbound at 14th or southbound at 42nd I rarely get a seat, but often get one within a stop or two because of the high turnover at each local stop. Sometimes even the standing room can be crowded.
Certainly though the 6 below 42nd doesn't fall into the crush category with much of the rest of the IRT.
Interesting comments about the spacing of stations. Makes me think about how relatively fleeting was the period when the end of a transit line would really be the end of the densely developed areas. Such as Jamaica Avenue after the el originally stopped. From pictures I've seen, east of there rapidly turned almost pastorial in nature. Durn the advent of widespread automobile usage in urban areas! While natural population growth would always tend to spread the developed areas anyway, one thing can be said for the earlier mainly rail transit-oriented development. It allowed for higher population while still leaving large areas relatively uncrowded. More woods and large open lots within the city limits. It's interesting how in parts of Jersey City, the HBLRT is almost replaying that scenario, with the line passing large once busy industrial areas that are now open fields. Reminds me a little of those pictures of the Flushing line in Sunnyside from the first few years of its existence.
Considering roads like Jamaica Ave or Hempstead Turnpike, I'm certain that if "money were no object", there would have been subway lines extended out along those arterials. Probably though, the window for their construction would have been no later than WWII. After that, the transportation dynamics were completely changed. Hempstead Turnpike is the Nassau County version of Queens Blvd. It is served by three trunk-line bus routes (i.e., they run the entire length of the road from Hempstead to Farmingdale) and all the N/S connecting buses in that stretch. The frequency overall is such that a rider can reasonably travel without scrupulously studying the various bus timetables, as long as they know the general routings. And there are actually many places to go along the corridor. IMO, it is a pedestrian friendly street. Almost all the intersections have walk signs, there are good sidewalks and street lighting too. Plenty of restaurants, pizza parlours, delis, some movies, offices, stores, etc. So this has grown into a fairly urban setting even without the presence of a subway line.
Speaking of fantasy lines....I've drawn subway lines (on Hagstroms) that start from the Melville corridor on RT 110 down to Conklin Street west to Hempstead Rail. Then, ala the Franklin Shuttle to a new connector to the A train, I connected the subway to that branch, and sent it up to a terminal at the Mineola station. A rational, solid spinal cord for the future Long Island to cluster around. Well, maybe when gasoline starts hitting $5.00 a gallon or so....
>>>...are the inflexible junctions at Rogers (or Borough Hall)<<<
Why do you call Borough Hall, Rogers?
Inquiring mimes have to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't. Rogers is the junction south of Franklin. The problem there is that the Nostrand branch connects only to the local tracks on the mainline, so 5 trains cross paths with 3 trains. The usual solution put forth (aside from evicting the 5 from Flatbush) is to reconfigure Rogers. An alternative solution is to reconfigure the "junction" (actually, there's no junction at all) between Borough Hall and Nevins, allowing locals to go to the East Side and expresses to go to the West Side (though some small-scale changes would still be needed at Rogers).
What I find most problematic are the inflexible junctions at Rogers (or Borough Hall) and at 96th, which force locals and expresses to cross paths for some desireable moves. Why couldn't they have been designed like 125th?
I believe 125th St was designed as it was because the builders learned from the 96th St bottleneck.
--Mark
I'd vote for stations on the curves.
I believe that's the root cause of the capacity limitation on the Lex.
The inability to design cars into BMT standards, 510 foot trains rob needed space of almost 90 feet (561 feet on the Flushing line, 10 months out of the year), vs. 600 feet for standard full length BMT and IND trains.
- The choice of using a smaller, obsolete car size
- The "jughandle" track configuration at 149th/Grand Concourse
- The configuration of the Rogers St. interlocking
- The lack of an island platform at Flatbush Ave
Pobably the biggest mistake was not having the specs that the BMT had. Probably not the IRT's fault since their specs were developed before the BMT made theirs. But the same idea that doomed the original plans for the NY,Westchester and Boston.
I'll be technical and say that if the question is "what is the biggest mistake 'they made,' not 'that happened,' then they can't be faulted for their judgement not making IND-size cars. The technology was incremental, so they built the best size cars they knew to build, on the radiuses that would make the turns under the streets, esp. crossing at 42nd. So I have to vote for the "H" split when the Lex was extended (which they knew when they had to close the shuttle the first day).
Refresh my memory. Why were any of those side platforms you mentioned installed???
They were installed for crowd control reasons, as in two platforms for local trains and two for express trains in each direction. Obviously, people wanted cross platform transfers, making the side platforms obsolete.
The side platforms were never intended for transfers. They were intended for those exiting the system and, I suppose, for those entering who specifically needed the local.
You have to look carefully at Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96 Street. There are there. 96 St has the side platform in plain view.
I say they made a major boo-boo on the original line by making Times Square a local stop. They underestimated patronage there by a mile. Times Square quickly became the most popular local stop on the original line. Belmont refused to install crossover switches to allow express trains to stop there and instead instructed the guards to announce the station as 42nd St. and Broadway.
That error was almost repeated when the Dual Contracts were signed. Luckily that didn't happen.
i say a big mistake was the uselessness of the express track on the 1/9 broadway line. there are no configured express stations on the three-track line, and the way the switches are located prevent the express track from having any useful role during rush hour, such as some kind of express service
(i say a big mistake was the uselessness of the express track on the 1/9 broadway line. there are no configured express stations on the three-track line, and the way the switches are located prevent the express track from having any useful role during rush hour, such as some kind of express service)
You may have misseed this, but the original plan was to have trains from north of 137th run express, and a local start from the yard at 137th Street. Similarly, the #3 train was supposed to be a local. But they cheaped out and didn't build a "flying junction" at 96th Street, so the 1/9 ended up all local, and the 2/3 all express.
i don't see why they would have needed a flying junction at 96th street. From looking at the track map at 96th street, it appears that trains from the upper broadway line could easily switch to either local or express.
Prior to about 1959 or so, what is now the 1/9 had both locals (from 137) and expresses (from 242) south of 96th Street. The 2 was an express and the 3 was a local (the "Lenox Avenue Local").
The TA wanted to eliminate this to avoid the crossovers at 96th. With the Redbirds they managed to run a local service on the 1 competitive with the old express times with IRT legacy equipment, so they could get away with it.
Lack of an island platform north of 96th on the 1 line.
Burnside on the 4 line has an island platform. But n/b trains can't access it from south of the station. If only the would've put in a switch for trains to crossover from 4 tk(n/b local) to M track south of the station, they could drop-out some lay-ups, without tying up n/b service, and causing congestion at Woodlawn every night.
There are switches north of Burnside that would allow switching from local to express tracks and vice versa. The layups could be stored north of the station.
Actually there is structure for switches south of Burnside (you can see it from the street) for a local to center express track switch on the uptown track.
Attempting to maintain a monopoly by buying the competition.
Pre-unification IRT takes in the Manhattan Els and the first subway route. There is some chat about the west side piers.
Because of the length of the Hudson River dock area from lower to midtown Manhattan, no plan was ever proposed for rapid transit to access the entire area. Instead, the surface trolley system on the cross streets provided rhe necessary connection to the els and the subway.
The original subway route, as planned predated Penn Station and further digging up of the streets was not too popular after the initial route opened. The clamor for additional routes eventually overtook the negative side of the construction. The two east side els handled that portion of the trafic very well. The 9th Ave El handled the west side traffic fairly well. The 6th Ave line was in the middle, but serviced an important shopping Avenue.
I personally did not understand the Pelham Bay route not being incorporated in the elevated original subway route on Westchester Ave in the Bronx, and no connection to the El in the lower Bronx.
The Brooklyn extensions are a mystery also.
It is and was a non-descript line.
The politics of the time forbad any early coordination with the BRT els. I always wondered why there was never any connection made at Park Row or coordination of efforts on the Manhattan Bridge.
They seemed to do OK with the Queensboro lines and the conversion of the Steinway line to regular subway use, although it took quite a while to accomplish.
The yard leads face away from the terminals. This requires extra moves in and out of the yards. Most of the land was vacant when the lines were built so these connections could have been made at that time. It creates a labor intensive situation.
In no specific order (drumroll please!!!)
The Incident
Taking of Pelham 1-2-3
On the Town (Outside either 59th st/IND or 5th Ave/60th st BMT)
Some Like it Hot (Those Lex. Ave subway grates did it to Marylin Monroe)
Sweet Charity (was it a R9 or R10 that pulled into lower level of 42nd St/8th Ave?), also Ghost in the same station.
Death Wish (why we are not talking abouth THIS movie?)
King Kong (both original and remake)
Saturday Night Fever
Crocodile Dundee I and II
City Hall
Money Train (The old dingy Franklin Ave/BMT station makes it final act before the renovation)
Die Hard WAV (phoniest looking Wall Street station you will ever see)
MIB II (was the flower, Train Dude after having a bad day?)
Spider Man (Flushing Line in background)
The Warriors
See No Evil, Hear No Evil
Live Ane Let Die (125th st/Lenox Ave entrance, on SW corner)
Marathon Man (47th st/IND entrance, East side of 6th Ave)
As I said, it's a partial list of movies
In my own personal opinion...
I think The Warriors is the best of them all...
How about "Beat Street"?
Not Some Like it Hot (which takes place in Chicago and Florida, and never gets anywhere near NYC). You're thinking of The Seven Year Itch.
correct me if i'm wrong..but i beleive the 'fbi story' with jimmy stewart had those great scenes of the #4 by yankee stadium
That was the straw that broke the camel's back for Joe DiMaggio. He was right there when they were shooting that subway grate scene and went ballistic.
The FBI with James Stewart had a great subway sequence towards the end along what is now the 4 line(complete with Low V's and all)
The FBI with James Stewart had a great subway sequence towards the end along what is now the 4 line(complete with Low V's and all)
Also:
- "Ghost" (with lots of continuity errors which have been discused in other threads)
- "Meet The Parents" (which opens with a Brooklyn elevated - in an establishing shot for a scene set in CHICAGO!)
I did list Ghost, next to to the 1969 film Sweet Charity, which both films had a scene at 42nd st/8th Ave IND, the now unused lower level.
Ghost was also filmed at the Myrtle-Broadway Station on the J.
Cough...uh Ghost!
not sure if it was nyc, but the 'matrix' also had some transit scenes
How about some black & white classics.
1) "Somebody up there likes me" Starring Paul Newman, Sal Mineo and a debut of a young Steve McQueen. The BMT Chambers St. station was used and was disguised as 14th St ! BMT Standard #2354 enters Chambers St. Film shot in 1955.
2) "The Lost Weekend" Manhattan Third Ave "el" seen in this flick. But in the early 1950's, wasn't the Third Ave "el" closed on weekends ?
3) "Cry of the city" starring Victor Mature. If my memory serves me correct, Coenties Slip "S" curve in this 1948 film.
4) "Conquest for the city" Starring James Cagney. Opening title scenes has BMT Standards on Williamsburgh Bridge and quick shots of subways and "els". Film shot in the early or mid 1940's.
5) "Bye Bye Braverman" Starring George Segal and I think Godfrey Cambridge. Shot all in NYC, scene of characters driving their Volkswagen bug on the Williamsburgh Bridge pacing a olive drab R-16 #15. Shot in the late 1960's.
6) "Naked City". The film,not the TV series( which had subway and "el" scenes). Manhattan Third Ave. "el" in this one.
7) "Pay or die !" Starring Ernest Borgnine as a turn of the century cop cracking down on organized crime. One scene, an obvious set is a crowded IRT platform, when Ernest is pushed onto tracks. Camera pans to R1-9 cars in tunnel. What !, R1-9's at the turn of the century ? Ernest gets out of the way and hugs the steel pillar while train blasts through not stopping. Whew, if Ernest became a 12-9, there wouldn't be any McHale's Navy !! Haven't seen this one in years, can't find it on video.
There are others, my head's beginning to hurt !
Bill "Newkirk"
Add to the list:
The French Connection
The Wrong Man: R-1/9s on the Queens line and R-15s on the 7.
Class of '44: The museum Triplexes have a cameo run-by.
Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?: R-1/9s signed up as an HH with the Maytag repair man playing the conductor; he reads from a manual.
A Short Walk To Daylight
The Exorcist: brief scene at 34th St. on the 7th Ave line of an express train pulling out. Features a freshly-painted silver and blue R-17 as the lead motor.
"The Loving Cup" on I Love Lucy.
Almost forgot Nighthawks. I still wonder which car got its storm door window kicked out by Sylvester Stallone.
The Exorcist: brief scene at 34th St. on the 7th Ave line of an express train pulling out. Features a freshly-painted silver and blue R-17 as the lead motor.
A scene showing Father Karras' mother walking up the stairs from a subway station featured one of the very few subliminal shots ever shown in a mainstream movie.
"Cry of the city" starring Victor Mature. If my memory serves me correct, Coenties Slip "S" curve in this 1948 film.
[American academic style requires you to put Movie titles in italics, and otherwise correctly cap it.]
Cry of the City is a wonderful film noir. Truly NYish in flavor.
>>> As I said, it's a partial list of movies <<<
I guess no one here is willing to admit seeing "Saturday Night Fever." :-)
Tom
Of course! How could we forget?:)
And then, me at 92 Gelston Av, B'lyn, watching the movie the first time it was on free TV. It was obviously filmed in my neighborhood, but before I got there. What I really remember is the Chinese place at 86/4th, SW side, becoming a white-people Chicken bbq place, after I moved there (they moved their sign and business up into the late 50s/early 60s (street names), and I do remember it was the same cheap glitter sign). I also remember the love scene under the VB approaches, where the concrete playground and old-folks club is.
That bar was actually there, up on 68th or something like that. A gay place, with a real medallion taxi yard just up the street.
Yes. I lived in Bay Ridge proper, for quite a few years, up there on the 4th floor.
Coming to America
Dreams Don't Die
Night Hawks
Naked City
The Wrong Man
Kiss Of Death
C.H.U.D.
Eve of Destruction
French Connection
Meteor
Jacob's Ladder
Bananas
The Devil's Advocate
Nunzio
Flamingo Kid
For Pete's Sake
Glengarry Glenross
Popeye Doyle
Carlito's Way
Sleepers
After Hours
Subway Stories
A Stranger Is Watching
Mr. Wonderful
The Cowboy Way
The Pawnbroker
Short Walk To Daylight
The Seven Ups
A Stranger Among Us
Gloria
Bloodbrothers
Hero At Large
Dressed To Kill
Turk 182
No one has mentioned The House on Carroll Street
I seem to remember a lot of subway/el background!
You forgot to metion "Hangin with the homeboys" their is a subway scene in that movie @ the fare control area @ Hoyt-Schmerhorn Sts also their was a scene done in a interior of the original R27/30 train(probably R30 #8506) & a elevated shot of the Westchester Ave el on the #2/5 lines with Redbirds in the shot. This movie was release in 1991.
Yeah, there are plenty of movies out there. I am still trying to find this one movie I had seen 20 years ago on Ch. 11. I am pretty sure it took place in New York. It centered around a "Guardian Angels" type of club where teens were trying to take back the neighborhood including the subways. I believe it only started with one kid and he convinced many not to take it anymore and to stand up for themselves. In this one scene they are riding a subway tain. One member would stand in the middle of each car and at every stop they each would have to look out of the car and look for the others. If someone didn't look out of the car, that was supposed to mean trouble and the others would go to the car and find out what was happening. These two punks started up with this one guy in the car and he stayed in the car. When the others from the train came running, the punks got lost. In the end I believe the neighborhood was turning around and the bad guys on the run. If this sounds familiar to anybody, please let me know. Thanks.
It was a TV movie called "We're Fighting Back," from 1981.
Wow! Somebody else remembers. I thought it had "Fighing Back" in it. Of course I found out that "Fighting Back" with Tom Skerrit was another movie. I'll have to look this movie up and hope they have some info on it. It's a TV movie so it might not be much. Still looking for "A Short Walk To Daylight". That movie I have never seen. Somebody out there has it. Thanks for your help J.C.!
I remeber seeing Kiss of Death on TV a few years back. It had R-40s on the Astoria N branch in the opening scene, with a view of the el just east of Shea Stadium.
I see we have a lot of great films, but NO ONE MENTIONED THIS FILM:
Fort Apache The Bronx- Freeman St station on the 2 and 5 in background on the opening hooker scene.
Not so subtle:
Dead Presidents: Pool Hall was near Prospect Ave station, also on 2 and 5 line, with a #2 S/B train leaving station in the distance on one scene.
Buzzin Around - Fatty Arbuckle 1933
You can see a BMT Standard in the Ave. M station in the background.
http://subway.com.ru/vitagraph/buzzin1.htm
The most prominent example would be NYPD Blue--the very first scene in the opening credits is a speeding R-36 headed for Main Street :) (I wonder if Steven Bochco will reshoot that showing R-62As if NYPD Blue is still on the air once all the Corona Redbirds are sleeping with the fishes?). Also, there are occasional subway appearances in the "bumper shots" (not sure if that's the correct term), that they have at the beginning of scenes.
Any others?
Hate to reply to my onw post but...
In the opening credits of NYPD Blue, the very last scene before it fades to the words "NYPD Blue" and the detective shield, there is a shot of a train entering a station, does anyone know which station this is? Appears to be a side platform, 2-track station.
'becker'..but i can't make out where or what line it is
Also, the opening credits for:
-"Night Court" features an graffitied, R40 slant, A train going through the Jay-Street Borough Hall station.
-"Archie Bunker's Place" shows a train of R42's (I think) on the Astoria El in Astoria where his bar (and house) were supposed to be.
It looks like the 7th Ave IRT line, somewhere between Canal and 28th st
Some of the TV shows I can think of:
-The "I Love Lucy" episode which is set on a soundstage at "Flatbush Ave" and "Bleecker St", but does have some nice real footage of old IRT cars running through the real stations.
-The Seinfeld subway episode is done in a mock-up of an R62 on a soundstage, but does have some nice real shots of trains at the 28th Street and Union Square Lexington Stations.
That I Love Lucy episode also features R-1/9s on the AA and R-12/14s on the 7, the latter being printed backwards!
The train interior scenes were done on a studio mockup hybrid, with features borrowed from the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs (metal plate signs) and BMT standards (door arrangement).
An All In The Family episode had Mike hit somebody on the train. I recall another one on the Odd Couple. Both episodes had trains that were stuck in the tunnel during the infamous years of service.
I always laugh at the All in the Family episode. It showed the subway as the epidomy of the 70's. "Nothing but dirt bags ride the subway" is the impression it gave, and it was what the subway seemed to be like in the 70's.
Compare that to the I Love Lucy episode of the 50's where everyone on the subway is all "proper", and in one scene Ethel says to Lucy, "I have to change my clothes before going on the subway. You don't expect me to ride the subway in my blue jeans!". Although in both episodes there was a "drunk"....some things never change.
>>> in one scene Ethel says to Lucy, "I have to change my clothes before going on the subway. You don't expect me to ride the subway in my blue jeans!". <<<
It is true that in the ‘50s there was a higher standard of dress. For instance, my father who drove a truck would put on a suit and tie, and wear a hat to go to a neighborhood bar for a drink in the evening. But that line was meant to get a laugh at the idea that Ethel thought she had to be well dressed to ride the Subway.
Tom
I remember the set for a phony subway car on the "Odd Couple" episode. Seems like I rehearsed that scene quite a few times on real subway cars! lol.
I remember the opening credits of "Welcome Back, Kotter" showing a set of R32's, and during the closing credits, a sight of a GM Fishbowl 8853.
Yep! I loved "Kotter" anyway, but those R-32s passing New Utrecht High (which doubled as James Buchanan High in the show) was an extra treat :)
BTW 8853 was on the B9 I think.
Try to watch almost the end of the 1945 Tom and Jerry cartoon Mouse in Manhattan. When the cops are after Jerry, he runs into a subway station and runs into the subway tunnel that says Uptown Express. A second later we hear a train whistle blowing and Jerry runs toward the camera behind him is I believe a BMT Standard subway train; you see the windows flash by. It looks like it was a feat to animate this scene but this was 1945 during the Golden Age of Animation.
In "The Yards", Mark Wahlburg rides a #6 at Whitlock Av. in the opening sequence, R38 4047 and a R62A marked "3" are seen at 207 St. Shops.
>>>Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 <<<
I would hardly call the NYC subways in this movie "In the Background" they were front and center.
Peace,
ANDEE
The idea for the title of this post came to me after a visit with my investment counselor. Anyway, what are other folks trying to do railfanwise? Are there specific systems you hav eto ride before you die? Or maybe you'd like to get all of the NYC subway in one day. Or perhaps you just want to ride and take pictures whenever you can. Here are my own personal goals:
Ride every heavy metro in the United States: Cleveland is the only one I have left to ride. Of course, I wouldn't pass up the chance to ride outside the U.S.
Ride as many other transit systems as I can: Right now I think I've ridden about 40 different systems. No system is too small. I'll ride anything from a shiny new light rail line to the three-bus fleet in Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
Ride all the rail lines in the Philadelphia metro area: Railfanning begins at home! So far I've ridden all the heavy subway and elevated lines (including PATCO), all the subway-surface lines, and all of the suburban light rail. I'm still working on the regional rail lines, having ridden about half of the system.
I'd love to hear what other people's rail dreams are.
Mark
Ride Amtrak (before they fold) from NY-Penn Station to Miami, back up to Florida, then across TX to CA (hello Fred!). Nex train from CA to Seattle, then another train across the northern plains via. Chicago, back to NYC.
And I would buy a laptop, go into Subtalk and post my experiences riding the railroad across this great country, perhaps write a story to Dave Pirmann about this too, with pictures to boot!! Done this once before to San Francisco, from there to Seattle nearly 20 years ago, I will want to do it again.
I can relate to that one. I wouldn't call it a goal, but something I would like to do is to take the Lake Shore Limited from NYP to Chicago in a nice sleeper compartment. In the summer of 1996, I had some time off (and a few extra dollars) and I was thinking of doing it; alas, I never did it.
I just checked the Amtrak website to see what this would cost. The rail fare is more than reasonable, $129 round trip! Now I first added a "ViewLiner" Room, that accomadation charge was $375 (extra). A bit pricy, but if you are going to spend 18 or so hours on a train, it may not be a bad idea. I then switched to a Delux Bedroom, that accomadation charge was $1212.00! WOW. What do you get for $1200!?! With the rail fare and the 1200 accomadation charge, you are getting near first class airfare (alright, first class air fare hits height even higher than these, but not all that much).
Who is the target market for this product? Does anyone know if it gets many takers, I assume it get enough or it would be offered
I just checked the Amtrak website to see what this would cost. The rail fare is more than reasonable, $129 round trip! Now I first added a "ViewLiner" Room, that accomadation charge was $375 (extra). A bit pricy, but if you are going to spend 18 or so hours on a train, it may not be a bad idea. I then switched to a Delux Bedroom, that accomadation charge was $1212.00! WOW. What do you get for $1200!?! With the rail fare and the 1200 accomadation charge, you are getting near first class airfare (alright, first class air fare hits height even higher than these, but not all that much).
Who is the target market for this product? Does anyone know if it gets many takers, I assume it get enough or it would be offered
I would imagine that long-distance trains like that are similar to cruise ships, in that most people are interested in the journey itself, more than the destination(s). You might consider them more entertainment than transportation.
I'd like to fill in the last couple of gaps in the New York subway, in other words sections I haven't yet ridden (1/9 north of 168th, 6 north of Parkchester, 3 east of Utica).
Wow, a railfan like yourself that hasn't been everywhere at least once? I haven't enjoyed the thrill of riding a line for the first time since 1990, when I rode the #6 north of E177th St. Granted, there are some parts I haven't ridden in a LONG time (the #3 east of Utica I haven't ridden on since the R17/21/22's dominated that line (early 1987). Haven't been on the Rockaway Park spur since 1994.
I completed the "everything once" list in the early 90's. I finished that with the Far Rockaway end of the Rockaway Branch in 1992. My second to last trip was a major one; I did the White Plains and Dyre line a few months before that.
My goal for now is fairly simple (but hard to accomplish). I want to ride between Essex Street and Broadway-Lafayette.
I want to ride between Essex Street and Broadway-Lafayette.
I did. I was an infant, but I did ride that connection.
I want to *walk* between Bleecker Street and Broadway-Lafayette.
Seriously, I want to get the whole NYC system in my head. I can only really do it by riding it.
Wow, a railfan like yourself that hasn't been everywhere at least once?
It's true. In addition, I didn't ride the Dyre Avenue line until about a year and a half ago. I've only ridden the 4 to Woodlawn, the shuttle to Rockaway Park and the F to 179th once each.
My goals are always the same:
Ride all 5 major trunks on a single day (8 Av, 6 Av, Bway, 7th Ave, Lexington Ave).
Ride my favorite lines (before the bridge swap 3 years ago):A, D, F, R, 2, 5.
I usually plan my railfanning before leaving the house. Unfortunatley, the &%$#@! Stillwell Ave closure pretty much makes my usual riding habits impossible.
1. To boldly go where no Railfan has gone before
2. To take pictures of as many interlocking towers as I can
3. To photo-document every type of active signal
4. To fight against modernism
5. Get a cab ride
6. COMPLETED Get invited into a tower and manipulate a pre-relay interlocking machine
Great topic!
Overall:
Ride as many different rail systems as possilbe in my lifetime. I'm up to about 20 so far, I'm going to Europe this May, and I hope to hit up three or four systems.
Find unused provisions and abandoned stuff on various systems.
Try to learn the complete history of MARTA. My school library is a gold mine for this stuff, they have all sorts of enginneering plans, old maps and propsals for routes and stations. I've read dozens of documents. It's great to see how the system evovled from concept to the real thing.
Just having fun looking around stations, seeing how they were built and other stuff.
Specific goals:
Riding all of Sao Paulo's rail network
Figuring out Sao Paulo Metro's car numbering system, plus seeing as many cars as possible (with over 700 cars, I odn't think trying to find every car as realistic enough, I'm only dwon there maybe 5 weeks out of the year).
Spotting every MARTA car, 338 cars is much easier, and I'm here all year round.
I need to learn to make the most of my camera. It holds 106 pictures of decent quality, but of the seven trips I went on, I've NEVER used them all! The closest I came to using all was a trip where I simply ran out, trying to get a shot off at Times Square, Manhattan-you can see the Westside IRT tunnel from the Shuttle platform. I wasted about 17 shots on that-and later I found out I could've deleted them and tried again.
The worst trip I ever took was to Philly, where, despite the beautiful scenery and host of trains, I only got half a dozen pictures. I called myself trying to "conserve pictures" and ended up running out of daylight. Now I'm dying to go back there to make up for my tragic mistake. I would also like to go there on Amtrak's Acela Express. It's obviously very fast, because when it zoomed by my slow, local SEPTA R7 train, it shook our train so violently I was reminded of the time I was living in Reading, PA and a tornado hit the house. And mind, the whole train came and went in about 3 or 4 seconds.
I'd also like to go to Boston's system, mainly because it's not too far away from NYC. What I really want, though, is to go to Chicago and ride the Evanston Express to see how fast it goes between Wilson and Howard.
As far as NYC Subway, I've never been on the #4 north of Grand Concourse, the #6 north of Middletown Road, the 1/9 south of Chambers, or the 5/6 expresses in the Bronx. Second, I'd like to get a picture of (this'll never happen) two trains on the Manhattan Bridge, one on the north side tracks and one on the south. Third, I want to find out all the rollsigns that ever were, are, or will be on the NYC subway cars. Finally, (if I live that long), I'd like to see whatever turns out of the 2nd Avenue subway.
I rode on the Evanston Express a few times when the 6000s were still operating. It was brisk, but not spectacular. One thing I regret is never having ridden on the 4000s when they were still providing service. I remember seeing them and could always tell them apart from the 6000s by the clatter they generated. The 4000s weren't exactly speedsters by Chicago standards. They were the heaviest rapid transit cars ever to run in the Windy City and topped out at 40-45 mph.
Mine are pretty simple.
1. Ride the entire NYC Subway System
2. Ride the entire MARTA system
3. Enjoying the sheer thrill of railfanning.
The only segment in New York I've never been on is the R between 59th and 95th Streets. I covered a few others for the first time last fall: the 4 all the way to Woodlawn; the N all the way to Astoria; the 1 all the to VCP; and the shuttle to Rockaway Park. Unfortunately, the only defunct line I ever rode on was the outer portion of the Jamaica Ave. line to 168th St.
I'd like to cover the lines I haven't ridden on in Chicago and San Francisco, and my ultimate goal is to cover the original 1863 Underground segment in London. I was there in 1978 and rode on the Piccadilly and District lines quite a bit, but never made it over to the Hammersmith and City lines.
If "dream" is a key word in your question, then my railfan goal, admittedly probably impossible, is to ride the Chicago Aurora & Elgin Railway's "Cannonball" from Wells Street Terminal to Elgin once again.
Why settle for just riding all SEPTAs non-regional rail lines? Why not do them all in one day. Admittedly not riding every line end to end, but riding every variety of equipment that you can.
Start at Market East, suburban, or 30th st, ride an R1, R2 R3, or R5 up to fern rock, ride the BSS back down to city hall, transfer to an MFL train to 69th st. Ride that all the way to the end, then hop a 101 or 102 to Clifton or Media. I would recommend Media for the scenery, but if you're pressed for time, clifton would be a better idea. Then Catch the R3 from either Clifton Alden station or Media station, the media line requires a bit of a walk, ride that to 49th st (you have to tell the conductor you want off there). From there ride a 13 into the city, get off at 30th, 15th or juniper st, and walk to 30th St or Suburban Station. From here you can either ride the MFL out to 69th st, or ride the R5 to villanova, in either case once there you can ride the 100 to Norristown, at villanova this requires a quick walk between the R5 station and the 100 station, but its a straight shot across the campus. Once at Norristown you can just ride the R6 back to where you started. It's the perfect way to blow a good 4-6 hours (depending upon which way you go) sitting on your rump burning money, while hitting every colored line and a significant number of R routes.
Oddly enough, I've done that, yet I still haven't ridden all SEPTA's city and suburban lines end to end yet. For some reason the 10, 34, BSS southern terminal (below Snyder) and the Ridge Ave spur have evaded me. Oh well, Spring Break is but a half a week away, I'm not going anywhere and I've got a full March transpass!
Oh yeah, for me, I want to see stuff, I almost don't care what. I would like to go up to Boston by Twilight Shoreliner with a sleeper, photograph the T ('specially the Green Lines), and ride Acela back (maybe when I have money). I'd also like to do a sleeper via the LSL and Empire Builder to Seattle, with a lengthy stay in chicago to visit family and see the sights (another for when I have even more money), then ride the Talgos, Sounders and Monorail (I figure it will built by then, opening the same time as the SAS). Finally I'd like to go to europe with a Eurailpass and just ride around on my free time, this one seems halfway doable, I just have to save virtually all my coop money from the first two years, study some foreign languages, and keep my grades up so that Drexel decides I can stick around.
In a slightly more realistic, immediate goal, I'd like to take better pictures, not merely roster shots that look very static and dead. I finally have access to truely wonderful photographic equipment, and I would like to start taking pictures that look nice or convey some kind of small story.
To buy a decent digital camera and try to take some pics already! I want to get some Redbirds before they all get reefed. The problem is I don't have the finances for it and I don't know any good resources on the subject... Sigh...
Short range goals:
- Ride all the NYC subway/elevated lines ... mostly done
- Do all the colors: Boston, Philly & Chicago ... Chicago left
- After the above, re-ride different parts of the system with some new and old friends, just for fun. Boston & Philly are easy to get to, so I'll do them again too.
Long range goals:
- Take a Amtrak to most of the cities in the US with subways & Light Rail.
- Visit trolley museums accross the US.
- I don't have too much interest in the diesel or steam museums, but if I'm in a city that contains one I'll visit it, i,e. enjoyed Steamtown USA. when I was in Scranton for another reason.
Longer range goals: Visit the systems of Europe, So. America, etc.
I'd like to ride the Far Rockaway run on the A line, the N over the bridge in 2004(in particluar an unobstructed view of the dekalb bypass), the CPW express run, the culver line again on an R32, maybe even visit the Washington Metro in the future (when I've got the cash!!!). In an unrelated note, with no more R32's on the N the only way to get an R32 outdoors is on the A in queens, and the culver line if you're lucky :-(
the N over the bridge in 2004
I did that as a small child in the 70's, on my way back from Coney Island with my father. I didn't ride over the bridge or through the Canal Bridge platform again until just recently when the Broadway line was reopened to the bridge again.
I was all excited one day in the early 90's when the N was just back to going over the bridge, after many years of the Canal bridge station being abandoned. I rode out to the J Canal Street station, and was just about to transfer to the N (on the bridge platform) when I saw all the signs...."No N trains at this platform until further notice". The bridge had failed once again, after only a few weeks of N serice.
I left Canal Street in disappointment, and wasn't able to ride it until the W train came along a decade later.
Hey Chris, then you got a whiff of what it is like when I come to New York and have to wait until 36th Street in Brooklyn to transfer to the N train. I mean, what the hell is all that local crap I have to put up with if I take my train in Manhattan. And that Montague rathole, enough already. I am glad of one thing, though. At least there are many of us on Subtalk who have taken to calling that tunnel a rathole. That is a consolation. I did have one other the last time I was in New York. I decided to ride the Sea Beach in Manhattan and was getting ready for a long ride by reading the paper when all of a sudden a burst of light hit me and, Walla, we were going over the Manny B. I jumped out of my seat dumbfounded and scared a few of the riders. I showed them my N shirt and Sea Beach cap and they soon understood some fanatic was in their midst. ( they apparently see a lot of them). Of course, on the way back we had to go through the rathole, but at least I got a pleasant surprise.
We're going to rename the Montague St. tunnel Fred's Rathole in your honor.:)
Do you really have to ask me what my goals are? I think it is pretty obvious that I want to ride our Sea Beach over the Manny B to Coney Island and be able to see our train doing some express work on a permanent basis in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. However, whether that happens or not is, unfortunately, out of my hands.
Story here
I meant Menage, sorry. Misspelled it.
You could say they Managed a Menage
I actually thought the title referred to some three-way illicitness in LIRR management, not necessarily sexual.
Was the woman Helen of Trois? :)
The fece that launched a thousand *ahem*s?
>>>Was the woman Helen of Trois? :) <<<
No Paul. She was the whore of Babylon. That should be obvious. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL!
There, that's better. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Could've they used the restroom, and be more civilized. Nothing new, happens all the time.
I am suprised the MTA did not try to charge an "entertainment" tax to onlookers.....to increase revenue for the ride home......
From the article:
>>> Authorities had said the couple and Dennis Greene, 40, a registered nurse, also from Wantagh, had been at a party in New York City on the night of Sept. 20. <<<
Damn! I wish I could get the recipe for the punch at that party. :-)
Tom
How do you list the % by volume of Viagra in a drink?
:0)
The measurement is inches, not percent.
LOL!
By the way, has anybody noticed that, when you pull up that story, you get a banner ad from the LIRR at the top of the screen?
I noticed that, myself. Coincidence, nah, there is no such thing as a coincidence.
Peace,
ANDEE
You were expecting "Fly United?" :)
ha i remember that, i live down the block from the merrick station, so i heard a commotion late at night and found out the next morning what happened
Yeah, that's funny. They are so cashing in on this.
---BMdoobieW
It'll be a move on the USA network in six months :)
--Mark
It'll be a movie on the USA network in six months :)
--Mark
>>> i heard a commotion late at night and found out the next morning what happened <<<
The commotion you heard must have been something else. This incident occurred on a morning train.
Tom
Thanks for the link. I'm glad to see that it is a happy ending.
---Brian
I'm glad to see that it is a happy ending.
Well maybe, but we don't know if they "finished" by Merrick.
It seems that the guilty plea deal is dead in the water. While the husband and wife had decided to plead out, the brother has refused. From what I have read, it looked like an "All or Nothing" deal.
>>> It seems that the guilty plea deal is dead in the water. <<<
The Newsday article said it had already happened. They will probably use the couple's testimony against the brother. When you look between the lines, the prosecutors probably threatened the couple with the loss of their children if they went to trial and were convicted. Faced with that, they copped the plea, but will not be sentenced until after they testify against the brother, who will when convicted get a longer sentence for putting the county to the expense of the trial.
There would be no reason why the DA would make a deal requiring all or none of them to plead guilty, and in any case he could not legally prevent any defendant from pleading guilty.
Tom
"They will probably use the couple's testimony against the brother. When you look between the lines, the prosecutors probably threatened the couple with the loss of their children if they went to trial and were convicted."
If you were the couple's attorney, would you question the realism of losing parental rights over having consensual sex on a train?
(Not that I'm condoning it. They had every chance to stop doing it and it was their own stupidity that got them arrested).
>>> If you were the couple's attorney, would you question the realism of losing parental rights over having consensual sex on a train? <<<
It has nothing to do with what the crime is. If they are both sentenced to jail, children's services will take the children, place them in foster homes and start an investigation into the parent's fitness. What the outcome of the investigation would be is uncertain, but it is a powerful threat to get someone to give up their right to trial. Prosecutors want to win and tend to play hard ball, they are not interested in whether the loss of the children would be appropriate.
Tom
what year was it and why? was it because of the Lehman College reference, or was it another reason? they should have at least kept the reference and programmed it into the r-142As and r-142s like Nereid Av-238th St is on the 5 line.
[what year was it and why? was it because of the Lehman College reference, or was it another reason?]
The reason was obvious: There isn't any 200th Street in that area. The street is called - gasp! - Bedford Park Boulevard.
- - - - -
[they should have at least kept the reference and programmed it into the r-142As and r-142s like Nereid Av-238th St is on the 5 line.]
Why keep a reference to a street that doesn't exist? CURRENT riders need CURRENT street names, not ancient history.
200th St never existed, or was it changed? There was a 200th St. station on the 3rd Ave. el.
http://kraybill.home.mindspring.com/52/03bedfordpark.html
this explains the sad fate of 200th street
hey, it is an ALTERNATE name(and should be double signed) just like MLK Blvd and 125th Street and Hostos Blvd and 149th Street, just like some US Army reserve center building in Wakefield uses E.238th Street as it's address. Only the buildings east of WPR use Nereid Avenue on their buildings, east of WPR it is E 238th Street, plus this would be a chance to get rid of that misspelled "Neried" Avenue sign as well. They
[...it is an ALTERNATE name(and should be double signed)....]
The fact that the street is NOT double-signed suggests that the later name ("Bedford Park Blvd") REPLACED the earlier name ("200th Street").
Absolutely. 200th is NOT an alternate name for Bedford Park. It is not signed 200th, nor so indicated on any map. Bedford Park REPLACED 200th a century ago.
Actually it was less than a century ago, although something like this would never be allowed to happen today, with 125th Street and 149th Street being proof.
also
http://dir.gardenweb.com/directory/nybg/
would eliminate confusion for some people (looking for 200th Street first) trying to find this
I know Amtrak doesn't have the money for purchasing new Cars right now, but if they did have the money I would like for them to purchase Acela Passenger Cars, just a slight different from the Acela Express Ones, It would be nice for those HHP-8's to hauliung new equipment instead of the old Amfleets, What do you think? Post your opinions!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling Here!
That's not a bad idea, but since they need to save money I wouldn't mind if they kept refurbshing cars to the "concept 2000" scheme. -Nick
Hmmmmmmm....I can see it now, the HHP-8's hauling nice new Acela Cars, and with a Acela Cab Control Car at the end. :)
why do you even need the cab car? On the NEC, all it does is take seats away from paying customers.
Hmmm, but I think a Cab Car would be useful so there won't be a need to put a locomotive on the other end, when the run is done, maybe the new cars would be able to hold more passengers, by the seating arrangements, but who knows, thats my opinion.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
"maybe the new cars would be able to hold more passengers, by the seating arrangements, but who knows, thats my opinion."
I doubt this. You can only make single-level cars so long, and bi-levels can't run in CT due to low bridges. -Nick
If Amtrak has money, it needs to continue fixing ROW, replacing signals and improving stations - and focusing on shortening its schedule so as to achieve a consistent 3.0 hour BOS to NYP Acela schedule and a 2.5 hour NYP to Wash schedule (including stops). The Metroliner (which becomes part of the Regional service) should be able to consistently maintain a 3.0 hour schedule NYP-WASH. This is possible to do. Once it has a handle on that, it can think about fleet replacement.
Are there stop markers on NJT? If not how do the engineers know where to stop?
Are there stop markers on NJT? If not how do the engineers know where to stop? Also, its a good thing they dont pull all the way up to the front of the platform.
Too many BMT fans on this board, but I still will dare to bring this up. We've blasted the failure of the IND to co-locate at key subway interchanges like Atlantic and Flatbush, and blasted the IRTs crossovers and curves. Was the BMT the perfect subway?
No. They cheaped out in two ways that still haunt us: relying on bridges instead of tunnels (they'd have used the Queensboro instead of building the 60th Street tunnel if they could) and failing to build a 3rd track of the 14th Street-Eastern Line from Atlantic to Bedford, for peak direction expresses.
When you think about it, the BMT didn't build many acutal subways at all. Yes the open cuts and embankments are nice, but a lot of BMT trains are over the street. I'd say that on a percentage basis, the BMT definately has more upgraded Els rather than subways. And don't forget, they wanted to build the 14th Street-Eastern line as an El, too.
Putting Edward Luciano behind the controls of the rush hour BU Fulton-Franklin train was probably the biggest mistake the BRT ever make, aside from the obvious tragedy because it gave Hylan the cudgel of popular support to beat them over the head with, first in court, and then to eventually kill both it and the IRT as independent (pun intended) entities by creating the city-run IND system.
As far as structural errors, the Manny B decision in 1913, like the IRT's decision to follow the standard car witdth in 1900, were obvious mistakes in hindsight, since the bridge option was both slower, and eventually more problamatic, than building a paralell tunnel to the bridge would have been, as was done at 60th St. next to the Queensboro.
Four-tracking the Sea Beach line without putting a station between Coney Island and 59th St. was another idea that probably made sense when CI was a major resort destination before the rise of the automobile, but made those tracks almost worthless for use in regular rush hour service, as the NX sadly proved. And sending the local tracks on the Brighton line up towards Franklin Ave. instead of continuing a four-track line all the way to DeKalb was also one of those mistakes in restrospect, but made sense at the time the system was conceived.
Would there have been room for 4 BMT tracks to Dekalb given that there are also 4 IRT tracks on Flatbush north of Grand Army Plaza? (though I suppose some stacking could've been done)
It would have been an interesting engieering effort, but back then they probably had the resolve to get it done if they thought it was worth doing.
Most likely design would have been bi-leveling the local and express tracks in the same area between the IRT tracks north of Grand Army Plaza (which probably would have made Seventh Ave. a local stop on the BMT, while Atlantic would have been a bi-level express station).
The Ashland Place cut would have given the Brighton 4 tracks to DeKalb. As it it was, the line was fully four tracks, all the way to Malbone Street, with what is today the Franklin shuttle being a stub of a connection to the old Fulton St. el.
Even in modern terms, I'mnot sure that not having four tracks between Prospect Park and DeKalb is a significant error. The two tracks are really sufficient for the line, unless you assume branches (as to say, the Kings Plaza area) which were never planned.
Yes, there is a bottleneck northbound at Prospect Park, but four-tracking to DeKalb would just move the bottleneck to another locations perhaps less able to deal with it smoorhly.
OTOH, the Franklin Shuttle could potentially save the Brighton Line's hash if the MB became completely unusable. A connection to the A Line at Franklin is at least a technical possibility, and perhaps cheaper and better than other jerry-rigs.
Doing it as it is today is symetrical both north and south of the station -- four tracks in from Fourth Ave. two in from Flatbush; four tracks out to the Manny B and two to the Montague tunnel. But in hindsight (always 20-20) the loss of the Culver line's connection to Fourth Ave. increased the Brighton's importance, in terms of number of passengers handled through DeKalb. Given that, the ideal connection now south of DeKalb would be four tracks on both the Fourth Ave. and Flatbush routes, with connections from both express tracks into the DeKalb bypass. That would have both alleviated the DeKalb-Prospect Park bottleneck and speeded up express service to and from Manhattan during rush hours.
But as I said, all that is looking back from 90 years worth of perspective. Only the most far-thinking people involved in transit planning in 1910 could forsee a day when there would be no elevated lines within two miles of downtown Brooklyn, leaving the Brighton local tracks as a line without a good final desination (though I suppose if the need ever arose -- likely due t Manny B problems -- the MTA could in the future do that Prospect Park connection and hook the Brighton local tracks in with the Culver line, since it has the opposite problem -- an excess of track capacity north of Prospect Park, with no routes to use it).
Paul,
The biggest problem confronting the Brighton Line using the Franklin Shuttle, if the Manhattan Bridge goes out, is how the Franklin Shuttle was rebuilt. Rather than planning ahead for possible full 2 tracking and lengthening of the platforms to accommodate more than 2 75 foot cars, the TA stupidly placed the single track from Park north, right in the middle of the right of way, along with the bridges over the streets from Park to Franklin AVE. Barring a major rebuilding of this brand new line from Park to Franklin, the line will be limited to one track and short platforms.
A rumour has it that the TA built the line this way for 2 reasons: To save money, and second that they were piqued that the line could not be abandoned due to community pressure and thus they rebuilt it to be limited as such. Knowing the petty politics and incompetency that goes on, I would venture to say that the second reason played a large part in such a rebuilding.
Hot Lunch!
Tunneling under Prospect Park seems more viable to me for the reasons given in the post this one responds to, but I suppose it depends on the answer to the following question:
Will the Manhattan Bridge be able to operate at full capacity, and if so, for how many decades?
(I've phrased it assuming that the bridge will operate fully until at least 2014; if not, then legions of NEw Yorkers ought to be furious, and properly so.)
As a practical matter, a connection between the Franklin Avenue Line and the A Line would probably require that the embankment be either or abandoned or bypassed.
The least disruption to property would probably take place by beginning a tunnel from the current right-of-way just south of Park Place, then tunneling underneath the Atlantic Branch and by joining the A line from underneath west of Franklin and Fulton.
Of course this would be costly, but probably not more so than other alternatives, and it would place the available capacity of the IND crossings at the disposal of the Brighton Line, thereby reducing the importance of deKalb and its associated river crossings.
I agree. That is a good possible connection and outlet for the Franklin Av. line.
Whoa, wait a minute...how would such a connection be arranged? With the combined frequency of (A) and (C) train service during rush hour, could another whole route actually be squeezed in between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay Street? (I'm assuming you mean the Brighton train would branch off at Jay Street to go up Rutgers back to 6th Ave.) This would cause serious cross-traffic problems at Hoyt, as well as either Canal or Jay and/or West 4th Street. The only way that would work is if serious improvements were made to (A) and (C) service patterns.
You would need to either connect A1 and A2 on Fulton Street to B1 and B2 in Jay Street, or, if you cheaped out and didn't do it right away, you might have to end the C train at WTC (like it used to), and run the Fulton Street Locals from Court St., as originally planned, at least during the rush hours.
I know it would force the Transit Museum to move, and inconvenience some C riders, but you're talking about the transit service of a huge section of Brooklyn.
If you look at the track map of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn-Jay St. area hooking up the Fulton local tracks to the Rutgers tunnel wouldn't be that major an engineering job, as far as dealing with the G train coming into Hoyt from Bergen (Brooklyn-bound would fly over the G tracks, Manhattan-bound wouldn't even have to deal with them). That would free up C serivce to run to Manhattan through Rutgers and the unused W. Fourth connector, while a second line could then share trackage with the A through the Cranberry tunnel.
Of course, then you'd have to switch a lot of lines around in Manhattan to get the right balance between the Sixth and Eighth Ave. trains, let alone building any connection down to the Fulton tracks near Franklin in the first place. Hooking the Brighton line into the Culver via Prospect Park would be simpler (though the whole problem with the lack of usage of the Culver express tracks and the dead-end for the Fulton local tracks at Court Street are two things to think about when the "Biggest Mistake of the BMT" thread appears).
(If you look at the track map of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn-Jay St. area hooking up the Fulton local tracks to the Rutgers tunnel wouldn't be that major an engineering job)
You can't tell the size of the engineering job from the track maps. There are issues of building foundations, street widths, water/sewer pipes, etc., etc.
True, but the track levels would not have to be changed to handle a flying junction to the Fulton local track.
BTW -- The last part of my last post should have said "Biggest Mistake of the IND." I got called away because of a balky Windows 98 workstation that doesn't want to talk to a G-4 OS X server, and didn't check my post close enough (and the workstation is still balking...)
Historically speaking, the Fulton Franklin connection is a bad news item. The Malbone St wreck was the result of the motorman taking the ramp from the Fulton El to the Franklin Line too fast. The junction was eliminated shortly therafter. Getting rid of the Fulton Ave El was a very high priority item. No thought was ever given to recreating the junction with the IND subway.
The subway system depends on qualified professionals at the controls; Anthony Luciano was clearly not qualfied to be a T/O. After he missed the previous station so badly, one can also ask why the conductor allowed him to drive on. It seems eerily similar to the Union Square wreck, in that respect. I don't pronounce the Lexington Avenue line to be a historical problem because of that wreck, though.
Thus, I wonder at the historical speaking going on. Would the Fulton/Franklin connection be justified if the conductor had ordered Luciano relieved when he had to back up the train before taking the fateful curve? There are far more relevant things to consider, I feel, than revisiting the Malbone Street Wreck and proclaiming it a historical reason to not connect Fulton Street Subway to the Franklin Avenue Line.
As for the razing of the Fulton El being a "high priority item", was it really? If I recall correctly, the El ran until 1940, thus I must question the "high priority". Even then, the death appears to be IND-inflicted, by the Fulton Street Subway, which was redundant.
The elimination of the Fulton El was high priority in the minds of the NYC Admin, not necessarily the people of Brooklyn.
The Fulton Ave El and most of the Brooklyn Els were anchored at the Bridge. And again, the NYC Admin used the fire at the Sands St Terminal to eliminate the entire Brooklyn El system.
When the Dodgers left Ebetts Field, much of the traffic on the Franklin line left with them, just as the traffic on the 9th Ave El Remnant in Manhattan ebbed when the Giants left the Polo Grounds.
I am not saying that the Malbone St wreck was a valid reason for not connecting the IND system with the Franklin Line. But again, the IND was not originally intended to be connected to any other part of the NYC Transit system. It was built to replace the existing el lines.
I agree. When the IND Second System wasn't built, NYC started extending the IND with "recaptured" BMT lines.
I wonder what Hylan would have thought of his IND after 1929?
Removal of the Fulton Street El was very definitely a priority for the people along Fulton Street. I'd almost say that it was an obsession for some. That's why the Ashland Place connection was such a big thing early on. It would have meant the removal of a lot of the El.
Even in modern terms, I'mnot sure that not having four tracks between Prospect Park and DeKalb is a significant error.
I disagree. It is the most heavily used line is Southern Brooklyn, yet has it's maximum capacity set by the two track section from south of Dekalb to south of Prospect Park. A 4 track setup all the way to Dekalb would allow the Brighton line to easily accomodate it's current split Q service as well as a tunnel route.
A connection from the Brighton to Culver line would do much the same thing, and at considerably less cost. The Rutgers connection is badly underutilized, mainly because the Culver does not and and never will support maximum thru-put of trains (and currently, due to a shortage of trainsets). You'd have an easy 13-15 more tph of rush hour service. The currently unused Culver express tracks come within about 1000 feet feet of the Brighton line.
The currently unused Culver express tracks come within about 1000 feet feet of the Brighton line.
That's way too optimistic. 1000 feet is about 4 city blocks. If you're looking where I'm looking at the area where the Culver express tracks dip under Prospect Park, we're talking maybe 2500 feet or about half a mile at best, as the crow files.
But that's assuming a route perpendicular to both lines running straight from one to the other.
In the East River Crossing Study, a connection across Prospect Park into the express tracks was dismissed in favor of Rutgers-DeKalb, since the former would only help the Brighton in the event of a Manhattan Bridge outage.
The post I reply to makes a good point, which brings me back to a question I've never quite even received a 'guesstimate' sort of answer to, namely: How long will the Manhattan Bridge last, effectively functioning? Any answers, I suppose, would have to take into account the success of the work done on the structure on and off for the past few decades.
Even accepting that the point raised by the study is valid, though, could things function in the event that the Manhattan Bridge could no longer sustain service? Would the Montague and Rutgers Street tunnels be enough for present levels of service?
(Even accepting that the point raised by the study is valid, though, could things function in the event that the Manhattan Bridge could no longer sustain service?)
No. Disaster.
(Would the Montague and Rutgers Street tunnels be enough for present levels of service?)
No. Just enough to ensure a future of infrequent, crowded trains, rather than a disaster. But of the future is five years of rebuilding every 20 years or so, as some suspsect (unless the need to rebuild corresponds to a fiscal crisis, in which case we're sunk), then it would have been a useful supplement.
(How long will the Manhattan Bridge last, effectively functioning?)
You've never gotten an answer because there is no answer. The goal of the repair work is to allow it to last indefinitely with proper maintenance.
No rumors have leaked out suggesting that the south side is already getting cracks from resumed service, so maybe they did a good job on the south side and will do a good job on the north side.
There is always the possibility that in a decade or less we'll be back in the same situation. That would imply the engineers weren't able to properly design a fix.
There is always the possibility that in a decade or less we'll be back in the same situation. That would imply the engineers weren't able to properly design a fix.
I doubt it. Unless there are some forces that the bridge will endure that have not been accounted for in the current rebuid, it should hold. The bridge will be much stronger. Remember, the bridge as originally constructed lasted 65 years before needing a rebuild, and was never really maintained properly during that period of time.
(There is always the possibility that in a decade or less we'll be back in the same situation. That would imply the engineers weren't able to properly design a fix.)
(I doubt it. Unless there are some forces that the bridge will endure that have not been accounted for in the current rebuid, it should hold. The bridge will be much stronger. Remember, the bridge as originally constructed lasted 65 years before needing a rebuild, and was never really maintained properly during that period of time.)
I only hope you guys are right. I can only project the experience of the past 20 years -- a rebuild, cracks returning, another rebuild -- forward. With other options foreclosed, looks like we are stuck with the Manhattan Bridge. That's better than being stuck without it, however.
I'll accept the correction on face value. But it is thru a park, and only the anti-subway/pro-smog tree-huggers need be dealt with. It's certainly cheaper (and simpler) than a Dekalb-Rutgers connection (I suggest a capture of the local tracks just after Church and just before Prospect Park station, and then diagonally, regretably missing most of the Culver express tracks).
And should the MannB go down again, as it basically has been for the past 20 years, the connection would be there.
It's obscene that not more than 13 tph do Rutgers.
It's certainly cheaper (and simpler) than a Dekalb-Rutgers connection )
I doubt it. No one will stand for a cut and cover swath of destruction through the park. Construction would have to be done by tunneling, shoring up as needed, and removing the dirt out the ends. That could easily be more expensive than Deklab-Rutgers.
No one will stand for a cut and cover swath of destruction through the park.
I disagree. For a major new subway connection, some temporary damage is quite acceptable.
Am I to assume you'd support shutting down all subway service on Flatbush Av as an environmental improvement?
(Am I to assume you'd support shutting down all subway service on Flatbush Av as an environmental improvement? )
No, you shouldn't.
I would see Rutgers-Dekalb as the better solution for multiple reasons, if the bridge dies.
They cut and covered through Central Park for the 63rd Street connection. Anything's possible though highly unlikely.
Any work through Prospect Park would probably draw the same protests as the Central Park work did with the rich families who made such a big stink to the Times back in 1971 about the MTA tearing up a playground near the Sixth Ave.-59th St. entrance (the people around Prospect Park aren't as rich, but the skills of NIMBYism have come a long way in the last 32 years to where it's not just for the upper classes anymore).
However, that was resolved when the MTA promised to put everything back the way it was. If there was construction through Prospect Park, I'm sure they'd end up making the same guarentee with the same results, especially if it meant the difference between 50,000 or so Brightong riders continuing to have a one-seat ride into Manhattan or having them all change trains for the Franklin shuttle, the 2/3/4/5 at Atlantic, or shoehorning a few Q trains through the Montague Tunnel if the Manny B was no longer useable, while ending all non-Culver Sixth Ave. service to South Brooklyn.
Yeah, I didn't expect there would really be a problem if they were to build such a connection. I still don't see it happening though, given what new construction COSTS ...
Without the Manny B going completely out, there wouldn't be the will (or the backing of all those Brighton riders) to do it. It's definitely not something the MTA could build beforehand as a "just in case" measure. It would have to be done after the fact, when enough people would demand it to cancel out the voices (and votes) of anyone near Prospect Park who might protest.
And even then, it'd probably take 20 years or longer. :)
Were all 4 tracks of the MannB to be shut down for any period of time, there would be a HUGE stink raised not just by Brighton line riders, but also 4th Av line riders too -- and by employers whose employees cannot get to work conveniently any more. They would have to essentially cut service on Eastern Parkway to allow transfers from 4th Av and Brighton shuttles. The stink would be Brooklyn-wide and the political consequences grave for any incumbant office-holder.
In such a case, I suspect a Culver-Brighton connection would be up and running in months as an emergency measure (essentially, something like they did for the World's Fair in Flushing). I would not be suprised if they even have some plans ready for such an eventuality.
Maybe not months -- unless they had the plans drawn up for the interlockings beforehand, the logistics of the connections onto the Brighton line and at the Culver would have to be worked out and then contracts let -- but if a whole bunch of politicians' political futures were on the line, it would go amazingly fast, and you would likely end up with Brighton D and Culver F trains running through Rutgers, while Brighton Q, West End W and Fourth Ave. R trains would be permanently going through the Montague tunnel (yes, I know, bad news for Fred's Sea Beach line).
In routing such a connection, it would probably be best if the connection tracks could head straight from the current right of way at Beverly Road, perhaps making a jog under Marlborough Road. Once you reach Caton Avenue, you have only the Parade Grounds and Prospect Park and perhaps you could possibly tunnel to a connection with the IND line.
I think people would be very sensitive to "takings" of property, and there is also PS249 at Caton and Marlborough. Building a junction at Beverley with minor property taking and without destroying service would be a challenge.
Sensitive? I'll say! Imagine being Mountain Fruit on Avenue M (right at the Ave M Brighton line station) and getting a letter from the MTA saying "we would be taking over the property that Mr. Podolsky owns adjacent to the tracks."
--Mark
That is a historic area. They cannot take any of those homes. Any connection would have been somewhere around Prospect Park (less disruptive to the community, plus transfers available to the express. But both that plan, as well as the Fulton-Franlin connection were turned down in favor of Dakalb-rutgers, and even that plan looks like it's going nowhere.
The only really viable connection is to capture the local tracks just as they exit the Church Av station and before they enter the Parkside Av station. No private property would be taken, no city streets would be ripped up, and there would be essentially almost no disruption to present service.
Going in via E 16th St and Buckingham Rd into Beverly Rd entails some serious tunneling under city streets, and would make Newkirk Av the last joint stop for all trains.
Going in via St. Paul's Place into the Church Av station has much the same problem; I suspect a lower-level platform would have to be constructed as well.
Going into the Prospect Park
The only really viable connection is to capture the local tracks just as they exit the Church Av station and before they enter the Parkside Av station. No private property would be taken, no city streets would be ripped up, and there would be essentially almost no disruption to present service.
Going in via E 16th St and Buckingham Rd into Beverly Rd entails some serious tunneling under city streets, and would make Newkirk Av the last joint stop for all trains.
Going in via St. Paul's Place into the Church Av station has much the same problem; I suspect a lower-level platform would have to be constructed as well.
Going into the Prospect Park station at Empire Blvd/Malbone St seems the most expensive of all, with a separate platform, and then tunneled connections into the existing Brighton trackage.
It's obscene that not more than 13 tph do Rutgers.
The V will add 9-10 TPH when extended.
If anything, the local tracks are closer than the express tracks.
That Culver capacity will be absorbed by the V train when it's extended to Church Ave.
I'm not advocating building 2 express tracks from PP to Dekalb Ave or your Culver connection idea. Both projects would never justify their cost.
I would certainly agree with you that the then BRT made their biggest and stupidest mistake by placing Edward Luciano behind the controls of a BU Fulton-Franklin train resulting in the infamous Malbone St. disaster. IF they had used their heads, the accidnet would have never happened.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree with the "mistakes" you mentioned. The absense of a third Canarsie track being and using the Manhattan Bridge as opposed to a tunnel being very major blunders.
TO add another, I think one of the biggest mistakes of the BMT/BRT was not adding a center track to the Jamaica Avenue line, and allowing the Crescent Street curve to not be rebuilt when the rest of the Broadway El was rebuilt, and the Jamaica Line was built. Either a bypass express track should have been built on Jamaica Avenue between Cypress Hills and BJ, or the Fulton Street section should have been rebuilt to three tracks.
Here's my list of really dumb BMT mistakes, besides the ones listed above:
1. The Canal Street crosstown line. Not only was this line not needed, but when it was abandoned midway through construction, it resulted in item # 2.
2. The local/express switch at City Hall, and the cut-off of the express tracks north of Canal Street/Broadway. On most well-designed subway lines, the locals are the short runs, while the expresses run to the outer boroughs. When the Canal Street crosstown line eliminated, the detoured and relocated tracks aligned with the Broadway express tracks, cutting off the expresses above Canal Street. This also resulted in the realignment of tracks below City Hall, cutting off the southern express track connection, and making the lower level of the City Hall station a waste of money and utility. Item number 3 (see below) worsened the situation.
What would have made sense, but may not have been possible, due to space limitations, or the massive expense involved, would have been to ramp the Canal Street crosstown tracks up Broadway to an alignment BETWEEN the express and local tracks. This short six-track segment would have allowed Manhattan Bridge trains the option of being either Broadway locals or expresses, and would have left the originally-planned express/local alignment below Canal Street intact.
3. The 60th Street track connection north of the 57th Street Station. Once again, this came about due to a change of plans part-way through construction. The original alignment had the full four-track line continuing north, swinging over to Central Park West; the two tracks serving the 60th Street line are situated between the express and local tracks, allowing for either to serve this line. Express trains were never intended to terminate at 60th Street. But since it is highly impractical to turn around local trains at 57th Street without an IRT/City Hall-type loop, or an IND/168th Street local/express track realignment, most service schemes over the years have favored locals travelling further than expresses.
1, 2 and 3 above have worked to create an extremely inefficient Manhattan BMT Broadway trunk line. This is one of the few lines in the city where the locals are more crowded than the expresses. Perhaps, if the the 2nd Avenue "stubway" ever gets built, the BMT express tracks will find a lot more use.
4. The cumbersome junctions north and South of DeKalb Avenue. Although the junctions were rebuilt in the late 1950's, DeKalb is still a huge bottleneck in the entire system. Too many lines feed into this station. As a result, it has not been practical to run express trains on Sea Beach, West End (and at one time, Culver) lines, as the junctions can't handle an even higher train volume.
DeKalb, of course, was yet another segment of BMT changed during construction. It was to have been built as a side-platform local station, and wound up as a six-track, island platform express station, after the decision was made to graft in the Montague Street Tunnel tracks and the Brighton Line. What was really needed here was a two-level, 8 track station with flying junctions to the north, similar to the West 4th Street Station of the IND.
I totally concur with your list. 1 and 2 were cheap, shortsighted "band aids". De Kalb is, and has been, a joke.
The biggest mistake the BRT (BMT) made, in my opinion, with hindsight, was in firing John Hylan. If the Broadway line had continued to Harlem or Washington Heights, there would have been two-way express traffic, like there is on the IRT and IND. In fact, there would have never been an IND. Obviously, nobody could foresee the irrational, vindictive actions on Hylan.
I totally concur with your list. 1 and 2 were cheap, shortsighted "band aids". De Kalb is, and has been, a joke.
The biggest mistake the BRT (BMT) made, in my opinion, with hindsight, was in firing John Hylan. If the Broadway line had continued to Harlem or Washington Heights, there would have been two-way express traffic, like there is on the IRT and IND. In fact, there would have never been an IND. Obviously, nobody could foresee the irrational, vindictive actions of Hylan.
Technical correction: the 14th St-Eastern Line was to be more or less 1/2 and 1/2, subway and el.
When you say "mistake," I would say that, in terms of the subject, there are two kinds of mistake. Mistakes that could reasonably be foreseen and those that are mistakes mainly in hindsight.
I would not call putting transit facilities on the bridges a mistake "of the BMT/BRT." The BRT did not get to make the decision of choosing a bridge or tunnel route--planning had already been to have rail transit (and not just subways and/or els) on all the East River crossings--if the BRT didn't get them, the IRT or another operator probably would have--as the IRT on the Queensborough Bridge--also viz The Triborough System.
So move to the question of whether it was a good or bad idea to put heavy rapid transit on municipal bridges, period. The furthest I'll go is to say "it would have been better to have built rapid transit crossings only in tunnels." There is considerable history of railroad and shared railroad highway bridges serving indefinitely if properly maintained. Would you recommend building tunnels to replace the Hell Gate Bridge, or the PATCO use of the Ben Franklin?
Given the realities and understandings of immediate post turn-of-the-century NYC, how reaonable is it to assume future city administrations which would allow their essential infrastructure to go to hell to the extent that the major river crossings would become unsuitable for their design purpose?
Now if you want a lively discussion (which would probably bore most of the board) consider whether the BRT's biggest mistake was signing the Dual Contracts.
(Given the realities and understandings of immediate post turn-of-the-century NYC, how reaonable is it to assume future city
administrations which would allow their essential infrastructure to go to hell to the extent that the major river crossings would become unsuitable for their design purpose?)
History can be scary. With political power at the state level held by representatives of groups who have been moving away, how reasonable is it TODAY to assume that our essential infrastructure will not be allowed to go to hell?
New York City was and is powerful in it own right. The most essential decisions which put ins infrastructure in jeopardy were made internally.
If you wish to point to external situations, such as the rise of automobiles or population dispersion, these are changing circumstances which affect many governments. The City has used its own resources badly. I remember not so long ago when a lot of prime Manhattan real estate was considered more valuable as transient parking than as commercial space. Decisions made mostly by New York City administrations turned this around.
The City's greatest difficulty in the 20th century, IMO, is its desire to externalize all its problems, thereby freeing its accountable elected officials from any responsibility to tackle them themselves.
The City's greatest difficulty in the 20th century, IMO, is its desire to externalize all its problems, thereby freeing its accountable elected officials from any responsibility to tackle them themselves.
Still happening in the 21st century, alas. Consider the way 9/11's being blamed as the cause of just about everything.
(The City's greatest difficulty in the 20th century, IMO, is its desire to externalize all its problems, thereby freeing its
accountable elected officials from any responsibility to tackle them themselves.)
(Still happening in the 21st century, alas. Consider the way 9/11's being blamed as the cause of just about everything.)
Absolutely right. 9/11 didn't help, but the city and state fiscal crisis is the result of decisions made during the boom.
And I am well aware we have our share of internal parasites here, and as the fiscal crisis combined with the vastly lower level of welfare use shows, it isn't the poor. All the ripoffs to the city, and they are many, and in exchange for the city sucking in a huge share of other peoples resources for the benefit of the health, social services and housing non-profits. Our representatives, the ones who make those deals, always imply that if we just voted for them a little harder next time we'll get our fair share of school money, transportation money, etc.
In any event, I think part of the problem is that in a place with high turnover, political power is always held by those who are moving out, and have no stake in the future. Hence the high debts, and the unwillingness to invest in things with long term values. That was the case for New York City in the 1950s and 1960s: the 1970s were the result. New York City has been better run recently, but unfortunately its disease has now afflicted the State of New York.
"Hence the high debts, and the unwillingness to invest in things with long term values"
This problem has been compounded by the two term laws. The local politico's won't be in the same office to bennifit from any project that does not show any immediate impact.
("Hence the high debts, and the unwillingness to invest in things with long term values")
(This problem has been compounded by the two term laws. The local politico's won't be in the same office to bennifit from any project that does not show any immediate impact. )
I disagree. With ballot access restrictions designed to prevent competitive elections, term limits are the only way to get people who represent those who have been moving into the city, and who expect to stay, in office.
Right now our real problem is the state. And it isn't because of term limits, because there isn't any. It's perpetual incumbency, supported by and supporting the same groups of already privileged interests. So you get shared sacrifice. In the boom years they shared. Now we will be sacrificed.
...I disagree. With ballot access restrictions designed to prevent competitive elections, term limits are the only way to get people who represent those who have been moving into the city, and who expect to stay, in office...
Won't term limits lead to disinterested councilmembers? My own (first-term) councilman is supposedly already considering running for S.I. District Attorney. There is something positive to be said for continuity in representation. Why should the next councilperson care about my district if he or she knows it's just a stepping stone to something else??
[There is something positive to be said for continuity in representation. Why should the next councilperson care about my district if he or she knows it's just a stepping stone to something else??]
There still IS continuity, to some degree. Most of the new councilmembers are merely "place-holder" puppets who are ran for office solely to keep the seat warm for when their patrons return. (Remember that the limit is only two CONSECUTIVE terms, not two total terms during a lifetime. In fact, Bloomberg all but admitted during his mayoral campaign that he was running as Rudy Giuliani's place-holder.)
When you shake the tree a few rotten apples fall off, and a few good ones have an opportunity to take their place.
Everyone knows that the only real elections are for open seats. Term limits ensures some real, competitive elections. We had some for the city -- lots of candidates, lots of points of view, lots of discussion about issues. How about those state elections last year? They weren't real. Now get ready for the consequences.
(In fact, Bloomberg all but admitted during his mayoral campaign that he was running as Rudy Giuliani's place-holder.)
He said nothing of the sort, and if he had it would have been a lie. Bloomberg is very different from Giuliani in both style and substance. Bloomberg negotiates. With Giuliani, you're either with him or against him.
Interesting how one's position at a given moment effects one's view on term limits. When the Democrates controlled Congress and a majority of state legislatures, the Republicans were all for term limits (can you say "Contract with America"?) and Democrats were not overly thrilled by them. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, the stands on the issue have shifted. I remember one tall thin candidate for governor of a large northeastern state making a pledge in 1994 that he would not serve more than 2 terms; does anyone know what happened to him and what he is doing today? Oh that's right he just began his THIRD term. It is not that he has a promblem sticking to his principles, he just can't count:-(
(When the Democrates controlled Congress and a majority of state legislatures, the Republicans were all for term limits (can you say "Contract with America"?) and Democrats were not overly thrilled by them. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, the stands on the issue have shifted.)
They were right the first time.
(I remember one tall thin candidate for governor of a large northeastern state making a pledge in 1994 that he would not serve more than 2 terms; does anyone know what happened to him and what he is doing today? Oh that's right he just began his THIRD term.)
Not with my vote. Thank God for Golisano. Otherwise, I'd had have to vote for McCall.
You make a good point. Most people with even a basic understanding of state government more or less acknowledge that Pataki has mis-managed the state. And if you didn't like McCall, you had another candidate. Pataki had years of prosperity, yet he did nothing to capitalize on it. He continued record levels of borrowing instead of funding from current (and very sufficient) revenues. That might not have been so bad had he not kept cutting tax after tax. Ok, I don't think many people would reject the concept of a tax cut (or really more cash in the paycheck), but does anyone feel they are better off economically due to the piddling (to individuals who are middle class and below) tax cuts Pataki pushed through? Instead of facing an (at least 11 billion short fall in Albany) enormous deficiet, we would at least be holding our own had all these tax cuts not been pushed through. Or even had Pataki taken a look after 9/11 and said "Hey maybe we need to at least postpone the coming rounds of cuts, the state really needs the money to provide services in this time of crisis" we would not be in the mess we are in. And even today, he won't support the city's bid to re-institute the commuter tax. I'll admit, Bloombergs rates are off the wall, but I don't think a reasonable person who makes his or her living in the city would object the old levy of .45%, heck, I bet that we could even go to .50% without hurting people. But no, instead of asking a person who makes $100,000 per year (that's $1,915 PER WEEK gross) to pony up an entire EIGHT DOLLARS AND SIXTY TWO CENTS PER WEEK it's better to lay people off. There's no pain in that; real pain is paying an extra EIGHT DOLLARS AND SIXTY TWO CENTS a week in city wage tax:-(
(But no, instead of asking a person who makes $100,000 per year (that's $1,915 PER WEEK gross) to pony up an entire EIGHT DOLLARS AND SIXTY TWO CENTS PER WEEK it's better to lay people off. There's
no pain in that; real pain is paying an extra EIGHT DOLLARS AND SIXTY TWO CENTS a week in city wage tax:-)
Here's the real figures: $160 billion and $20 billion. The first is the total combined, unduplicated expenditures of New York's state and and local goverments. The second is how much worse off we will be, in higher taxes, higher fees, or diminished services, as a result of statewide state and local budget gaps. This year, next year, every year for several years. One dollar in eight.
Assuming the economic doesn't get worse. Not including the fact that the $20 billion in diminished money in circulation will itself make the economy worse.
Remember all the debt in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Plan, the 2000 Pension Enhancement (it's free!), the STAR program, the 2002 Health Care "Reform," etc. Not to mention all those years with no SUNY/CUNY tuition increases and fare increases. You believed that it was all due to great managment by our politicians? Not!
"Right now our real problem is the state. And it isn't because of term limits, because there isn't any. It's perpetual incumbency, supported by and supporting the same groups of already privileged interests. So you get shared sacrifice. In the boom years they shared. Now we will be sacrificed."
Anyone ever considered having NYC secede from the State?
It could be interesting.
-West End Scott
UPSTATE wants to secede from New York State also ... Vive le Quebeçois! Fetchez la vache! Bombardier! :)
I remember not so long ago when a lot of prime Manhattan real estate was considered more valuable as transient parking than as commercial space. Decisions made mostly by New York City administrations turned this around.
I think not.
The reason why such lots were and are used for parking, is so that they may generate an income until such a time as a large enough parcel may be assembled to built a proper office tower or something.
Decisions made by politicians (of whatever stripe) never turn anything more ponderous than the rolls of toilet paper that they use. It is business and finance that build cities, NOT politicians.
Elias
But politicians have the power to create laws and regulations that encourage or discourage that invesztment.
I had a small business in the City. You can't imagine the paperwork and harassment involved.
(I had a small business in the City. You can't imagine the paperwork and harassment involved.)
New businesses are on the loser list in NYC (and the state). They get stuck with hassles and paper work. Large companies with connections get all kinds of special tax deals on their way out the door.
I had the NY State Department of Labor do a data run with unemployment insurance tax data. At any point, one third of those working in the city and state's private sector are employed by establishments that did not exist five years prior. That's pretty typical. Cutting deals with existing firms and screwing new ones is economic suicide.
And did you hear what are happening to unemployment insurance taxes, which hit small and new businesses especially hard? They are soaring through the roof as a result of the failure to run up any cushion during the boom. Only our state would do this.
>>Only our state would do this.<<
No Ca has done similarly stupid things. The temptation to cut taxes and fees during non recessions is very serious. The result of course is no rainy day money and severe cutbacks in public services the minute the economy stops racing. Fares up, service down, extensions not funded.
So has Maryland.
Transit fares go up 15 whole cents July 1 in Baltimore. (Current base right now is $1.35. It goes to $1.50 July 1.) Pass prices increase accordingly.
New Gov wants slots, legislature cool but going along, but latest proposal is for a 5 cent rise in the State property tax (currently 8 cents per $100 of valuation.)
Note: Previous Gov left new Gov massive deficit. Did same thing to Executive of Prince Georges County when he moved to State House. Guy makes Patacki look like Mr. Goodguy.
State bond rating as high as ever. Our Comptrollers are cut from the same cloth.
It could have been worse. You could have elected Kathleeen Kennedy Townsend as your new governor. Think of what it would have been like if that lightweight had been in command. Then, again, Glendenning, or whatever the hell his name is, was probably worse.
You betchum, Freddo.
Parris Glendening is a sleezeball, plain & simple. The only reason he got to serve two terms was that his opponent (same one, both elections) would have been worse, if you can imagine that.
Parris dumped his first wife for Francis, then dumped her for #3. He ran around with both Francis & the third wife before marrying. Knowing his marital history, I wonder how #3 really feels.
The local rag carried the sordid details, as well as the 3 local TV stations. Parris's rating went really far down, he's been rated as the worst Governor in Maryland history, aad we've had some real loser since colonial days.
The local rag had the transit fare increase on Page 1. Reaction from the public: oh hum.
The heavy regulations/paperwork within the city have created businesses which specialize in NYC operation and others who avoid the city. Example: Key Food, C Town and Gristedes are mostly or wholly NYC grocers. Shop Rite, Acme and K-Mart treat the city like a hole in their geographic doughnut. They do not want to be bothered with the hassle of city paperwork/regulations.
Many examples of this can be given. Another that I can think of is a cousin in NJ with a limo business. For him to enter the city legally just one time would cost him $1500 so he stays in Jersey and will not go into the city for any reason in his limo business.
I thought that a non-NYC black car or limo could make a round trip with a customer as long as that that trip began and ended outside of NYC. I would think that not allowing such would some how or other violate some inter-state commerce law/rule/regulation. At least with car's from outside NY state.
Shop Rite has stores in the city.
Not only does Kmart have stores in the city, its two Manhattan stores are apparently two of its best performing stores (according to a post here a while back).
I don't even know what Acme is. I think it's a regional supermarket in some other region. There are no Acmes in NYC suburbs either.
Acme is the store that Wyle E. Coyote uses to get his devices from.
That's the first thing I thought of. I never saw a real Acme either in the city or even near the city.
ACME (all caps) is a supermarket. They have one in Highland Park or near there. They also used to be in the Scranton, PA area until they were bought out. My family always shopped at ACME. If you are from Scranton, you would call it "the ack-a-mee."
---Brian
"There is considerable history of railroad and shared railroad highway bridges serving indefinitely if properly maintained"
Maintance cost far more for a bridge structure then it would be for a tunnel which is largly not exposed to the elements. Add heavy rail eqiptment to the equation and it is much better and cheaper idea long run to have built tunnels especially with the frequency of NYC subways
I would not call putting transit facilities on the bridges a mistake "of the BMT/BRT." The BRT did not get to make the decision of choosing a bridge or tunnel route--planning had already been to have rail transit (and not just subways and/or els) on all the East River crossings--if the BRT didn't get them, the IRT or another operator probably would have--as the IRT on the Queensborough Bridge--also viz The Triborough System.
One might do well to remember that these were built as RAILROAD BRIDGES, NOT as Highway Bridges! There were NO CARS when these bridges were built. They were MODIFIED to accomodate these beasts once they were invented.
We would have done better to keep the cars out of Manhattan, but that too is of course hindsight. And when you put the cart before the horse, your hindsight stinks!
Elias
I'm not sure what point you're making. None of the East River Bridges were built as rail-only. Only the Brooklyn Bridge predates automobiles, and it had substantial carriage, truck and pedestrian traffic.
The Manhattan Bridge was first planned and designed for rail traffic only. As built, it was originally meant as a subway/trolly bridge with the center roadway meant for carriage/automobile traffic.
Never thought about the Luciano aspect. But as far as tracks go, it is too bad they hadn't gone further than Lefferts. The Nassau St. line never panned out the way they had hoped either.
My list of biggest BMT mistakes:
- the configuration of the Jamaica Ave el from 168th to ENY, with it's sharp curves and lack of middle track.
- the re-design of the junction south of 36th St. Click here for a map of the original configuration.
- The Manhattan Bridge layout.
- No express track on the Canarsie line
- Only 1 major trunk line to midtown Manhattan
Many of these problems were solved with the merger with the IND.
- the configuration of the Jamaica Ave el from 168th to ENY, with it's sharp curves and lack of middle track.
In addition, even if they acted on the provision of a third track, all the stations were designed as local stations, which also doesn't make sense. They should have planned for at least one express stop somewhere between Eastern Parkway and 168th Street.
They did. Woodhaven Blvd would have been a 3 track/2 island platform station had the 3 track configuration was built from the beginning. On the south side of Jamaica Ave the buildings gently slope farther away from the curb starting at 91st. St in anticipation of this.
On the south side of Jamaica Avenue?
One either side, the buildings are very close to the elevated structure.
Sorry, north side, west of Woodhaven. Starting from the McDonald's at 91st the buildings do back away from the street in what's obviously a contingency for an express station at Woodhaven. There aren't any on the other side of Jamaica.
Interesting. I wonder why if they did obviously build a provision for a third track over Jamaica Avenue anyway from Cypress Hills to 168th, I wonder why they didn't just build Woodhaven like Wyckoff and just leave the middle empty (I know Wyckoff hactually had a track, I'm just using it as an example of express stations they were building at the time). If they were left provision for a third track, and they left space at Woodhaven, why did they build Wood haven just like all the other "local" stations on the line, knowing they would have to tear it down anyway if the provision ever became reality.
The whole way the Jamaica Ave line was built puzzles me. ALmost all of the other dual contract els (even rebuilt Fulton) had a third track added, not just a provision for it (except for the Livonia El which was built without the center track, but provision like Jamaica), and they built Jamaica with all local stations. I wish I knew what they were thinking when they built the Jamaica El and also that they left the Fulton part of the J unrebuilt, while Broadway was also rebuilt. Obviously, whatever they were planning never happened.
Well, if worst comes to worse, they could always raise the track to an upper level and have platforms on either side. I believe of the express stops on the 9th Avenue El were like this.
Maybe that's what the BRT/BMT had in mind.
The only theory that I can offer was that there was more opposition to building an elevated line along Jamaica Avenue than there was along the other Dual Contract lines (there was also opposition along Fulton Street to the addition of a third track, but that was overcome), and this was the BRT's attempt at a compromise -- letting more daylight through to the street.
They did. Woodhaven Blvd would have been a 3 track/2 island platform station if the 3 track configuration was built from the beginning. On the south side of Jamaica Ave the buildings gently slope farther away from the curb starting at 91st. St in anticipation of this.
- the re-design of the junction south of 36th St.
What were they intending to do with those four tracks which were to branch off?
The original plan called for a subway (!) beneath New Utrecht Avenue and presumably that would have been the lead for it, bypassing the BRT controlled facilities.
I'm wondering why someone didn't come up with the biggest mistake of the BMT from my vantage point, but since no one did I will give mine. Easily in my opinion the biggest boo boo of the BMT was not building a few express stations on the open cut of my Sea Beach line. It could have made it a super route and facilitated traffic to Coney Island and elsewhere, and tearing up one part of the express track was lunacy. There I've said and got it off my chest. I feel better already.
Awww, Fred, I put it in the second post in the thread. I wasn't going to forget about the Sea Beach line, and how great a run a Sea Beach express full time would have been even with stops at New Utretch and King's Highway.
Well, the BMT's reasoning was sound from its own point-of-view. The Sea Beach express tracks wre to make the Sea Beach the BMT prime player for super Coney Island service, as opposed to subway service.
But the SB express tracks were not rendered useless, even without the resort traffic. Locals could have short-lined at Kings Highway, and expresses cover the last few stops to Coney Island. This was proposed from several fronts to save the NX, but the TA wasn't interested.
Well, since one of the express tracks was eliminated, maybe they'll put an express station somewhere, say New Utrecht? Then they could have peak-direction express service on the remaining track.
If built, the Culver could have had it's own trackage all the way to 36th St, vastly increasing the capacity on both West End and Culver routes. This capacity is no longer needed for obvious reasons, but would have made a big difference to Culver riders before 1954.
BMT was far from a perfect company. In fact besides neglecting most of Queens (w/the exception of BQT Lines), the BMT neglected the south eastern areas of Brooklyn, like Flatlands, Mill Basin, and Marine Park. True, these areas were sparsely populated at the time of the BMT's heyday, but still they should have had the foresight to see these 'outskirts' as future neighorhoods (i.e., meaning future customers = more revenues). The BMT tended to be quite innovative in the area of railcar equipment design, but not as thoughtful in the same respects toward the expansion of their system.
I think that it is difficult to fault BMT for many of the Brooklyn Lines.
They did not build them. They were built by various steam railroads and then consolidated by both the BRT and the LIRR. Where they went is where they went, and when they were built these other places were filled only with cows or farms.
The BMT inherited this, and while it may have been nice to have made new lines, buy the time there was a reason to do so, it was no longer financially or politicaly possible.
Elias
"the BMT neglected the south eastern areas of Brooklyn, like Flatlands, Mill Basin, and Marine Park"
They were indead sparsely populated in the hayday of the BMT. In addtion the IRT had plans to extend lines into some of these areas
As always another quality article made possible by Destination Freedom:
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#Floridagovernor
Ever since transit ceased being a hard-core money-maker, Republicans have always been viciously anti-transit. Jeb's hatred of railroads is exceeded only by his hatred of those who are opposed to illegal immigration via Mexico.
As always another quality article made possible by Destination Freedom:
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#Morgan
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Reminds me of Amtrak Clockers accepting NJT Monthlies
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#Rail-2-Rail
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#Commuter
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After the big dig fiasco Boston is not going to get and more transportation $$ for decades.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#North-south
Something in the article is without proper context. $7 billion for the North-South Connector?
There must be a lot of relocation involved (ie wholesale relocation of roads or other tunnels and extensive rebuilding of ROW at both North Station and South Station).
I hope the issues with Greenbush restoration are resolved. I understand the Old Colony Plymouth line is doing business like gangbusters.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#How
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#Oceanside-Escondido
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03102003.shtml#CSX
This has got to be one of the STUPIDEST things the BofLE ever gave away for their membership - in fact, Remote Control is doing VERY well. BLE decided when the railroads came to the Locomotive Engineers with the new technology to not only oppose it, but to REFUSE to learn the new technologies. Now their members are out the door and remote operations fell to UTU.
It's an interesting story if anyone's interested - details can be found here as well as the history and FRA's decisions that remote operations are SAFER than having a BLE guy at the handles. You can also see how BLE blew it (and this ain't the first time) ...
http://www.utu.org/WorkSite/RemoteControl.cfm
Yes, but what seems stupid and illogical can be perfectly rational if you discover the root causes.
Ok, which railroads jobs are generally picked first in the seniority bidding system? Yard jobs. Why? Because they work consistant hours, are always close to a bathroom and vending machine and don't they involve long cab rides and motel stays after getting off duty at some terminal 300 miles from your house. The yard dosen't move, it stays in one place and if you have a yard job, so do you. The BLE's most senior members were pissed because they could loose the plum jobs they had worked years to bid on. Younger members were pissed because they were no longer guarenteed he reward of finishing off their golden years working in a yard job.
The BLE didn't want the new tech because it stood to eliminate some of their most plum positions and most BLE members saw as a senority perk.
Well, ask anyone *in* BLE and they'll tell you that BLE has a consistent and RICH history of screwing up at every turn and laying down faster than you can say FL-9. That all said though, BLE was OFFERED the title and they turned it down. It passed therefore to UTU and other crafts. Dunno how much you've done in the yards, but the person on the ground has a better sense of what's going on than the person up in the cab when it comes to a lot of yard moves.
BLE was offered first dibs. BLE *could* have gotten "with it" and protected those RC jobs as BLE jobs. They didn't, "and so it goes" ... now you should sorta know me by now and know that I've always sided with the BLE folks - but their union is QWAP. They know it, I know it and so do the railroads. They should have NEVER bargained this away. :(
That all said though, BLE was OFFERED the title and they turned it down. It passed therefore to UTU...
You are correct. I asked a BNSF conductor about this (and had even posted a sign from the Bismarck Yard).
BLE *was* offered the job, but those people had no intention of leaving their heated cabs, and getting down on the ground to connect hoses and throw switches and the other tasks that are required to yard trains. Nor had they any intention of doing so when the mercury is hiding around -20 degrees.
And so it came to pass that they do not have to do this.
As for those who *do* have to get down on the ground anyway, hey! what's so hard about using a remote, any couch potato can figure that one out!
Elias
They should have reached a compromise and installed the remotes into railroad pickup trucks.
Heh. Harsh way of putting it, but true. The railroads are shedding jobs like there's no tomorrow, and as much as a union would want them not to, it does become imperative to protect the jobs you DO get to keep, especially in THIS economy. Alas, "brakemen" and conductors had to do all that anyway, and since their eyeballs can be right where a move ends up, they had no problem with "OK, I'll close it up."
While I sympathize with BLE's desires, THEIR folks are going to be completely out of work and in fact a few railroads have just announced massive layoffs in (guess which title?) ... sometimes a suckwind job is better than none at all ... :(
The utu is NOT a union PERIOD.
So, what do you think of that, Jersey Mike?
I frankly side with thew railroad. The municipal resolutions would be mostly nonenforceable, except that local govts couldhassle the railroad about expanding marshaling yards, getting permits etc - of course the railroad could hassle them back by threatening to relocate even more jobs than remote control would.
BLE members should be offered retraining, job transfers, training on remoe control technology, etc. Then the unio needs to step outof the way (it's going to lose in the long run anyway).
Comparing the manned operations with the remote control operations is comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure that any kid with video game experiance could probably achieve a lower accidents rate than the manned operations. The real comparason is between bumpkin trainmen operating the remote locos and certified engineers. I say that because of the complexities in yard operations that can only be learned with real world loco experiance, engineers would be required for the remote locos.
2 separate points. UTU and BLE have been sparing for years. This is just another nail in the coffin.
As to RC, there is no logical reason well trained controllers can't do excellent work.
I say that because of the complexities in yard operations that can only be learned with real world loco experiance, engineers would be required for the remote locos.
Horsefeathers!
The real yard work *is* done on the ground!
All the Hogger gotta do is what he his told by the ground crew.
His choices are 1) Go East; 2) Stop; or 3) Go West.
The real work always occurs at the distal end of the train.
And as it is the CONDUCTOR IS THE BOSS ANYWAY!
In Bismarck they RC yard is so arranged that it does not cross any grade crossings.
Elias
Railroads have the unique legal ability to use federal preemption to crush ANY local opposition to their projects.
Railroads have the unique legal ability to use federal preemption to crush ANY local opposition to their projects.
As it should be! Unless the localities want to forego any and all property taxes from the railroad!
Elias
They pay very little taxes of any kind, anyway,
They pay very little taxes of any kind, anyway,
They *do* own the land, and they *do* pay property taxes to every burg and county they cross.
And it would be quite impossible to run a railroad if they had to slow down every five or six miles.
The Grade crossings are protected, let the trains RUN!
They *do* own the land, and they *do* pay property taxes to every burg and county they cross.
Railroad property taxes are administered in a special way. The states assess the taxes on a centralized basis for each railroad and then allocate the proceeds among the various towns and counties in which the railroads operate. This central assessment system saves railroads from having to deal with a multitude of jurisidictions. Public utilities usually get the same treatment, for the same reason.
At a ridiculously low rate
Not in Maryland.
For many years, the Baltimore & Ohio had freedom from taxation in Maryland. This provision was in the B&O's 1827 charter. B&O was chartered to compete with the Erie Canal (built by New York State).
Maryland not only provided cash, they gave B&O tax freedom.
Fast forward to CSX time. Some idiot bean counter figured that CSX could save around $800K per year if the corporate structure of the railroads that made up the CSX was "folded" into CSXT.
Louie Goldstein, our long-time beloved Comptroller, who was "dumb as a fox" took notice of CSX's doings. He quietly told his Tax Assement division to start looking up the value of the property that CSX owned in Maryland (lots of propery).
When the charter of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Company was surrendered to the Maryland Secretary of State, the order went out: start assesing CSX's property.
The first year property tax bill for CSX in Maryland came to around 18 million dollars. So much for the 800K savings. CSX started shedding unused property all over the state. The B&O Museum suddenly discovered that they now held the entire Mount Claire Shop property, except for what had been sold for the (now moribund) shopping center on the Carey Street side of the property.
hust another dumb maneuver from the Crude Southern eXpletibes. Almost as smart as the barge line purchase, the Jacksonville swimming pool (bunker)
They pay a VERY LOW special rate.
How predictable: Never mind the efficient movement of freight (along with yard activities in support thereof); the only reason for railroads to exist is protection of high-seniority jobs at all costs.
Now imagine if NYCT tried remote train control!!
They're WORKING on it, but alas, the low bidder will stave it off for decades. Now about that attitude about unions ... heh ... bear in mind that companies (such as the one I work for) actually treat their employees well enough that there's no NEED for a union. Then there are those companies (like Wal*Mart) that are actually creaing NEW unions. While I personally have no use for unions, there *ARE* places out there that not only DESERVE them, but encourage the need for them.
CSX, MTA ... 'nuff said ...
Up until last summer, unions were something I didn't have much use for, either. Then I took a job running a machine in a warehouse for the summer and I encountered a new situation where it was immediately apparant that a union was needed badly. The place was unionized, but the union was not strong enough.
This place had the standard three month probationary period that every employee needed to clear and you couldn't join the union until after that probationary period. The result was that all new employees (who had less than three months on the job) were the only people that could be screwed around with by management since the others were protected, somewhat, by the union.
I quit after a month and a half and I now believe that unions are still very much relevent and needed in some places.
-Robert King
Yep ... my education in WHY there are unions came from Western Union (I was a "transmitter operator"), AT&T, and most significantly, the "State of New York." In many other companies, the union shafted me more than the employer. :)
Was management doing productivity checks every two hours and was your work area enclosed by 'stored' products waiting for shipment making a quick departure in case of fire impossible?
-Robert King
A couple of factories in Long Island City and one on 23rd off 6th. Yeah. And Matsushita added to the fun with cameras and microphones in the potty and overhead on the ceiling to make sure we didn't filch screws or talk about joining a union. :)
The warehouse had about a million cameras in it and all of them were recorded on tape. Of course it was to prevent theft, but management was also monitoring them to make sure everybody was working which is a bit redundant since they'd be able to figure it out from the numbers taken down every two hours from the machines. Whenever the piles of boxes of prepared fabric got piled so high that they blocked the view of one of the cameras, the operations manager would shortly appear with a few other managers and a forklift operator to correct the situation.
Actually, I've got a good story about the cameras:
One day, one of my friends who worked there discovered that his bike had been stolen. Since the whole place was on camera and all the cameras were recorded, the obvious thing to do was ask management to review the applicable tape from the day before and see who took it. This was on a Tuesday. On Wednesday morning, he put in a letter of resignation stating that he was quitting effective the end of the day on Friday. We were talking during the morning break and he told me that he was leaving to work for the company I'm with now. They fired him at lunch time on Wednesday and when I got back to my machine, I discovered that four other people had quit that morning (I mentioned the four people in an earlier post). I quit on Thursday morning along with a couple of other people.
Now it's interesting because ometimes when I get reshuffled to a special event, I bump into nearly half a dozen former employees from the fabric warehouse and we catch up with eachother and talk about what it was like to work there...
-Robert King
I forgot to mention that the reason why my friend quit and was subsequently fired (without cause) the day after the bike was stolen was because management told him to get stuffed when he asked for the tape. When he persisted, they gave him a tape from the correct camera, but from some weekend which was absolutely useless because the bike wasn't there then anyways.
-Robert King
Heh. Like I said, there's places that DESERVE a union. :)
"This place had the standard three month probationary period that every employee needed to clear and you couldn't join the union until after that probationary period. The result was that all new employees (who had less than three months on the job) were the only people that could be screwed around with by management since the others were protected, somewhat, by the union."
Probationary periods are common throughout many fields, unionized or not.
One of two things could have happened here (and I am not saying which one - that's only for you to judge):
1) The screwing around you speak of was so bad that, even after joining the union, you would fear for your job anyway and would be exploited
or:
2) All you had to do was last three months, suck it up and take it, and then you were in the clear, with the rest of the gang. That means that, management stupidity/dishonesty notwithstanding, you would have only yourself to blame for leaving.
That's true. However, I didn't outline the situation fully, and I also would like to make the case for a third option:
From the people I spoke with who had been there for several years, my understanding was that most of them fell into option #1. I heard lots of bitter complaints about the union and the company. Consequently, whenever any other company in the area was hiring, everybody who could jump ship did and I remember one morning during my last week there when four people quit. That action of the people who were in the union indicated to me at the time that option #2 wasn't as viable as I'd hoped when I started. This brings me to the third option:
3) Unionized or not, whenever something better comes along, jump.
I chose the third option and took a much better job (not union) which I still hold part time. That wouldn't have been possible with the warehouse job which was a 'summer job' in the most literal definition of the term. For me, personally, leaving was one of the best decisions I've made.
-Robert King
but the real point is that any operation such as you describe is counterproductive. Management's task is to make life pleasant enough that you want to show up and produce knowing you are respected as a human and decently compensated. Unions evolved to force at least the compensation and "equal" oppression rather than corrupt favoritism (although sometimes merely substituting corrupt union bosses within the structure) We are all well aware that abuses have occurred, but as long as authoritarian morons end up as bosses we will need unions in those operations. One should remember that the Toyota managed joint production facility in Fremont Ca (a former GM plant) produces more efficiently than other plants while paying full UAW wages and benefits. The attitude toward workers exemplified by NS's serial numbered s#$* bags for random drug testing is ugly.
When I was working as a brakeman and conductor-trainee on CP Rail in Toronto (circa 1995 and '96), I was trained on remote ("Pitch and Catch," or "Bitch and Crash" as it was nicknamed at first). Frankly, I thought it stunk when I first heard about it, but after doing it for a couple of weeks I thoroughly enjoyed working the remotes. Didn't care much for doing it at 3am at the pulldown, but, hey, then again, I never liked the pulldown much to begin with! Had I not been furloughed (and subsequently left the biz), I would likely still be working with it every day.
The technology itself is sound, and having two alert crewmembers on the ground I think offers a good "big picture" view as far as safety is concerned.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Actually, the R-68 floor program is ahead of schedule. Instead of 2004, 156 R-68s will get new floors this year - the first will be in service very soon. Looks like aq 50-50 split between Coney Island and Concourse cars. 2732-2733-2735-2734 will be the first for the D line.
Any word on the their IRT copycats, the R62(A)'s?
The first cars already are in service. I saw them on Friday morning 3/14/03 -- they were 2762-3-5-4, if memory serves.
David
Coney Island snuck a few in to serve as the prototypes.
I saw two sets down at Coney Island. One of them was 2812-2813-2815-2814.
TD,
I guess that the R-32 rubber floor program is over and done ?
Some of those floors on the R-68's are horrible.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newsday Story
Why is the MTA being such assholes about cards bought before the fare hike? I thought the whole point was that the MTA wanted people to pay in advance. What better way then to have a farehike and allow people to lock in rides at the lower fare. SEPTA and the MBTA don't pull this kind of crap. The MTA's action is just pure spite and will only alienate its customers.
The MTA's plan is actually fair and balanced.
Allow those who bought unlimited card a reasonable time to use them. Those who are looking to beat the system will not be able to.
Wow the wonders of modern technology which helps to keep order in the universe and the cheaters and crooks at bay.
Hoarding is not cheating, its smart. The MTA is trying to reap all the benifits of pre-purchase w/o the downsides. All it does is burden the comsumer with hassle. If the MTA is going to be this way they should only offer stored value cards.
Wait a minute, aren't you the one who advocates no discounted rides at all? One would think that this decision would make you happy.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Wait a minute, aren't you the one who advocates no discounted rides at all? "
So he doesn't always make sense? Recall that Jersey Mike also advocated for the right of criminals to sell swipes through a turnstile.
>>> Allow those who bought unlimited card a reasonable time to use them <<<
Giving a person only til June 12th to use a 30 day unlimited card after selling it with a statement that it could be used at anytime for a year from purchase is not a reasonable time. It is not fair to the person who bought 12 of them with his Xmas bonus. It could probably be challenged in court, but the stakes are too small for anyone to bother. It is also possible that although the MTA is making this announcement about expiring cards to prevent hoarding, they will quietly provide new ones in exchange for old ones to anyone complaining when the deadline comes. Someone should call their 800 number to get the details on the redemption plan.
Tom
" It is not fair to the person who bought 12 of them with his Xmas bonus."
Anyone who would do such an act is obviously not the brightest light in the world. The money could be better invested somewhere else.
The MTA's plan is very fair. If you bought and activated the card prior to the new fare taking effect you will be able to use the card for th full period. Anyone trying to hoard cards will not be able to cheat the law abiding Subway and Bus rider for their own gain.
As of MAY 4 the price for a 30 day unlimited is $70. It is these people who try to find constant loophole which make this city such a pain to live in sometimes. It is ones civic responcibility to follow the law.
>>> Anyone trying to hoard cards will not be able to cheat the law abiding Subway and Bus rider for their own gain. <<<
Hello! Anyone buying unlimited MetroCards under the rules then in effect, are not cheating anyone. It is they who are being cheated by the MTA. If you think it is foolish for someone to purchase twelve 30 day metro cards at one time, that is no reason to allow the MTA to cheat them and change the rules after the purchase was made in good faith. The whole idea of all of these cards is for the MTA to obtain money now for rides in the future. The MTA got the money when the cards were purchased, now they are reneging on their obligation to provide the rides they promised.
There is nothing wrong with limiting the term that unlimited cards will be good on cards purchased after the announcement of the new limits, but to go back to cards purchased before then is dishonest.
Tom
How is hoarding not law abiding? A unlimited ride card provides a month worth of unlimited rides at some point during the next calender year. The card is not some dollar value coupon that can be used to purchase rides in the future, it is a contract between you and the MTA for the MTA to deliver rides before the card expires. The MTA's policy is underhanded and unfair to consumers. If the MTA does not want hoarding it should not offer for sale unactivated cards.
I'm not so sure I agree with your thought that anyone buying a years worth of 30 day unlimited cards with a Christmas Bonus is not "the brightest light in the world". You say the money could better be invested somewhere else and I guess that is technically correct. Yet with interest rates hanging around 1% for any short term instument (and I've seen a few ads in bank windows, actually advertising their interest bearing accounts BELOW 1%) I'm not sure how much better you could invest it. I'm not to good at doing calculations of Present value and time value of money, but in my oversimplied calculation, had you invested that $756 (12 x $63) and took the money out just in time to buy the next card, you would have reaped the grand sum of $1.89 BEFORE taxes, that is assuming you could get the full 1%! On the other hand, if you did have a few extra bucks lying around the house, and did buy the whole years worth of Metro Cards, you wouldn't have to worry about maybe shelling out $63 a few days before payday when doing so may hurt!
I realize a greater "return" could be realized from paying down your credit card debt (since most people pay between 12 and 24% on those suckers), but in the real world, it takes a great amount of disipline to pay it down and not drive it back up in a few weeks.
As to the issue of how fair the MTA is being, I think in a perfect world they would let you use them if you have them. As it has been pointed out, one of the major benefits to the MTA about pass type cards is that they get to hold your money for a period of time before you "spend" it (sort of like having more than you need withheld from your paycheck in income tax, it doesn't make much sense but the government benefits and more than a few people look at it as forced savings and are grateful to get the money back at tax time), thus either earning interest (or more likely forgoing borrowing for its own needs). That having been said, since the MTA is alledgily hurting for cash, it is a reletively painless way to increase revenue.
(I'm not so sure I agree with your thought that anyone buying a years worth of 30 day unlimited cards with a Christmas Bonus is not "the brightest light in the world". You say the money could better be invested somewhere else and I guess that is technically correct.)
Don't worry about your mathematical abilities. He's not correct. There are very few investments other than loan sharking that pay as well as buying a year's worth of unlimited passes at the old price. If you have a really usurious credit card, it might be worth paying that off, but then again, that's very similar to loan sharking.
12 30-day passes at the old price: $756.
12 at the new price: $840.
The MTA has your $756 for an average of 6 months (i.e., it has some of your money for a whole year, but some you get to use right away, so on average it has your money for 6 months). Your return is $84 on a $756 investment over a 6 month (average) period. That's 22 percent annual interest, tax free.
The contract law issues in selling a card with one expiration date and then unilaterally changing that expiration date have already been brought up.
But the plan has pragmatic concerns as well. MVM's will be mobbed on 5/6 as sales of the then-valid Fun Pass will have only begun two days earlier. Someone who doesn't live near a subway station or other MetroCard sales outlet and wants to use a Fun Pass to ride the bus on 5/6 is entirely out of luck. (That is, if anyone still uses Fun Passes. At $7 a pop, more expensive than four rides on a discounted PPR, they're practically useless.)
>> That is, if anyone still uses Fun Passes. At $7 a pop, more expensive than four rides on a discounted PPR, they're practically useless. <<
Until now, I've always kept one in my wallet in case I had to make two stops in Manhattan the same day (meaning three trips, $4.50 PPR, $4 Fun Pass). I won't bother any more; in fact, I used my last one last week and only took two rides (the second stop never confirmed the appointment, so I just went home). The original purpose of the Fun Pass was to cater to tourists, and clearly the MTA is repositioning the Fun Pass so that only tourists will have any use for it.
Current unlimited cards of all denominations cater to anyone who uses transit for more than the commutes to and from work. Look at the prices: they're all just slightly higher than the cost of two fares per weekday on a discount PPR card. It makes sense to give discounts to people who occasionally or often ride off-peak, since off-peak rides cost almost nothing to provide.
The new prices destroy that. The new 30-day is so cheap that it gives discounts to simple everyday rush hour commuters; the new Fun Pass is so expensive that occasional riders don't get any discounts for their off-peak travel until they rack up five rides (plus free transfers) per day.
What were they thinking?
Incidentally, how is the new Fun Pass of any use to a tourist?
(The new 30-day is so cheap that it gives discounts to simple everyday rush hour commuters)
Not quite.
Employees on a standard work schedule get 10 vacation days, 10 holidays, and a few sick days. That's 235 work days per year, or less than 20 per month.
If you only use a 30 day pass to go to work, it's not worth it.
I have always thought to design a "Commuter Card"
It is good only from your home station group
and only from your "work" station group
and only for one round trip daily.
But for these restrictions, you'd get the cheapest rate they could offer (whatever that might be).
It could probably work like an EZ-Pass, limmited to those two points, but if you use it to board at a different station group or use it for more than one round trip, you would have to enter your pin number, but then the full fare would be billed to your account for the next billing cycle.
And like the LIRR mail-n-ride, youd never really have to refill it. It would always just be valid, as long as your bills were paid in full, in advance.
Perhaps it would have to be administered by an outside agency, such as a bank or by the EZ-Pass company.
A truly unlimited pass after the manner of the EZ-Pass is also a possibility, but at a higher price than the Commuter Ticker.
Elias
Hey, it's not "EZ-Pass, it's "E-ZPass." :)
(It is good only from your home station group
and only from your "work" station group
and only for one round trip daily.)
Doesn't seem likely to ever happen. The biggest expense for the MTA is those 2 rush hour trips a day. They have huge capital expenses for equipment, and also then they have to pay the operations staff necessary to run that peak rush hour train for the whole rest of the day.
I think that's why they reduced the 30 day pass to only slightly more than the cost of the 20 round trips the average commuter takes. Those rides cost the MTA a fortune, but the extra rides are nearly free to provide.
Fine. Add two trips per month and the unlimited becomes the better deal.
Too lenient.
(Fine. Add two trips per month and the unlimited becomes the better deal.
Too lenient.)
I understand your opinion, and even mostly agree with it. I'll miss the fun pass sorely, since I often do 4 rides in a day, but rarely 13 in a week. But surely you understand the rationale:
- Reduce transactions. MVMs may be cheaper than humans, but they still cost money. Fun passes create even more transactions per dollar than discount pay-per-ride.
- The rush hour trips are the ones that cost. Once someone has paid their dues by paying full (i.e., $1.67) fare for each rush hour trip, might as well give them the remaining rides for free.
What would make sense based on that rationale but probably is too much of a political risk are off peak unlimiteds and pay-per-ride cards for less money.
- Reduce transactions. MVMs may be cheaper than humans, but they still cost money. Fun passes create even more transactions per dollar than discount pay-per-ride.
So offer the non-consecutive five-day pass that has been proposed. i buy one Fun Pass per day simply because that's how they're sold. Frankly, I'd rather buy more at a time.
- The rush hour trips are the ones that cost. Once someone has paid their dues by paying full (i.e., $1.67) fare for each rush hour trip, might as well give them the remaining rides for free.
Exactly. So why does the new Fun Pass kick in the free rides only after four paid rides? I'm sure most 30-day unlimited users generally ride in both rush hours while the average Fun Pass user misses one of the rushes. So, if anything, the Fun Pass should be even more generous.
Why not offer $5 Fun Passes valid on weekdays only after 9:30am (taking a cue from WMATA)? That would be a steal for NYCT (they'd only be valid for one rush hour yet they'd cost as much as three rides) and would still be of use to many if not most current Fun Pass users.
Part of the WMATA rationale behind waiting until 9:30 is so that the tourists are forced to wait until the end of rush hour, reducing crowds. This is why you hear very little about problems with commuters and tourists both crowding the trains in the morning, but in the evening, it is another story.
I saw a very large crowd of people waiting to board trains at Woodley Park yesterday. The tourists are definately coming.
"- Reduce transactions. MVMs may be cheaper than humans, but they still cost money."
Once installed, the marginal cost of doing another transaction on an MVM is so low that its impact is virtually zilch.
(Once installed, the marginal cost of doing another transaction on an MVM is so low that its impact is virtually zilch. )
Yes, but you need fewer MVMs if your projected load is more 7 and 30-day cards and fewer fun passes and $10 pay-per-ride.
Say they see the load increasing at GCT (or other busy stations) so that lines are starting to develop. By encouraging larger transactions, they can reduce the load and obviate the need to install more MVMs.
Also keep in mind that the MTA at some point will extend the subscription metrocard program currently seniors and diabled only to the masses further reducing the load at MVM's. With more people on automatic refills, the MVM's will mostly handle the subway rider who ocasionally takes the train and those paranoid or do not have a bank account. Any way you cut it, fewer transactions will be taken place in station
http://www.mta.info/nyct/fare/rfmr.htm#mrmc
The credit card prossesing fees the MTA pays is dirt cheap. No more then 1% per transaction. MVM's maintance and replenishment cost are offset by the current tooken booths replenishment cost. In the end they maintance cost are virtually nil
Not really. The credit card transaction charges add up (though I'm sure NYCT has managed to get a good deal on those) and the machines need to stock a lot of change for cash transactions.
Actual experience will show whether the Fun Pass is of anypractical use. Its price can be reduced if the TA figures out it's not selling enough of them.
(Actual experience will show whether the Fun Pass is of anypractical use. Its price can be reduced if the TA figures out it's not selling enough of them. )
It seems pretty clear to me the TA thought it was selling TOO MANY of them. They obviously didn't like the idea of many locals repeatedly getting 4 or 5 rides in a day for $4. Whenever I was in GCT, I was likely to go to the store and buy 5 for $20.
"Incidentally, how is the new Fun Pass of any use to a tourist?"
The answer is pretty obvious - it's useful to the tourist who is planning to make more than four trips in one day. However, the number of such people is clearly smaller than before, when you only had to make more than two trips to justify a FunPass.
For railfanning toursists it depends how many times you actually want to leave the system (to use the bathroom or buy food, say, or to take pictures of the outsides of stations). A two-day railfan trip, with only three actual entries to the subway each day, would be cheaper with a $10 PPR. (Of course, as a canny railfan you could also make your pitstops at Lex/63rd or Court House Square, to gain an extra free entry.) The $10 PPR with its 20% discount will be useful to any two-day tourists who don't plan to make many trips (three trips per day, plus free transfers of course), in fact, and the seven-day unlimited at only three times the price of a one-day will be useful to those - railfans or not - making a longer visit (4-7 days). For three days, the extra $1 to get a seven-day unlimited might be worth paying for greater flexibility, over a $20 PPR that buys twelve rides.
Two other considerations I forgot about.
If two or more tourists are travelling together, and not making many trips per day, the PPR Metrocards in round $10s might be best because you can legally swipe two people through on the same card. And if you just buy one $10 at a time, you don't risk buying more trips than you're going to use while you're there.
However, the sheer flexibility of a go-anywhere-when-you-feel-like-it card might be attractive to tourists, who therefore might buy the $7 FunPass anyway. To out-of-towners who don't know that it used to be $4, $7 seems like a good deal. Of course, $4 was an outstanding deal - when I first railfanned in NYC I couldn't believe how cheap it was! The London equivalent (but not usable before 9.30 a.m.) costs five pounds (about $7.50).
>>> For railfanning toursists it depends how many times you actually want to leave the system <<<
The Fun Pass is not made for railfanning tourists, but for regular tourists who want to use public transportation (both subways and buses) to see many places in one day.
Tom
"The Fun Pass is not made for railfanning tourists"
I realise that - it's just that Subtalkers from out of town (or in my case out of country) probably *do* use FunPasses when visiting NYC to railfan.
So far as ordinary tourists are concerned, I predict that many will still buy FunPasses for their convenience and flexibility, even if they could actually save a little by buying individual rides.
Actually, for a single tourist who is only in NYC for a single day a Fun Pass is more likely to work out than for a local. The base tourist fare in that case will be $2 per ride. 4 rides cost $8 if bought at retail, or only $7 with a fun pass.
The base local's fare, of course, is $1.67, since they know they will eventually use whatever they purchase and thus will buy in bulk. So they have to take 5 rides to justify the fun pass.
For a tourist family, the break-even again becomes 5 rides each, because they can buy single rides in bulk. But as you say, they are also likely to buy fun passes (if they know about them) out of uncertainty as to how many rides they'll take.
Do you know many tourists who (a) travel alone and (b) are only in the city for one day (within a year and change)? They exist, but I doubt they exist in large quantities.
(Do you know many tourists who (a) travel alone and (b) are only in the city for one day (within a year and change)? )
I've personally done that many times. I have had business trips to other cities, and given myself an extra day for sightseeing.
Another possibility is people visiting the suburbs, with a one-day excursion to NYC.
But in terms of numbers, I agree that the vast majority of tourism is multiple people and/or multiple days.
Let's assume two people travelling together, making only three trips per day each. One $10 PPR Metrocard per day will do it ($5 per person), cheaper than Funpasses. But a five-day stay will justify two $21 seven-day unlimiteds for this couple ($42 versus $50). At four days the PPRs shade it narrowly ($40 vs $42) but the extra $2 might be justifiable for the extra flexibility it offers. If the number of trips per day is higher, the break-even point gets down to fewer days. For a two-day stay for two people, $28 of PPRs would buy them seven trips each, but $28 of Funpasses would get them unlimited trips each; $30 of PPRs would get them nine trips each but would cost more than the Funpasses!
"For a two-day stay for two people, $28 of PPRs would buy them seven trips each, but $28 of Funpasses would get them unlimited trips each"
Oops, arithmetical blunder - I have a migraine at the moment - that should read: "For a two-day stay for two people, $28 of PPRs would buy them ***eight*** trips each, but $28 of Funpasses would get them unlimited trips each."
and clearly the MTA is repositioning the Fun Pass so that only tourists will have any use for it.
Well, *I* certainly shall be able to use it!
Oh, wait! I am a tourist!
Elias
>>>...and clearly the MTA is repositioning the Fun Pass so that only tourists will have any use for it.<<<
Messenger and delivery services will still have a use for it also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe MTA doesn't want people to stockpile 7 and 30 days Metrocards for use on and after May 4th. Then again the same people said they were going to close 177 booths and now the number is alot less. I still say after all is said and done, the cards good now will still going to work later.
>>>Then again the same people said they were going to close 177 booths and now the number is alot less.<<<
Yes, but remember, the number is *STILL* higher than the number they wanted to close last year. The TA pulled this off admirably.
>>> I still say after all is said and done, the cards good now will still going to work later. <<<
I totally agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Then again the same people said they were going to close 177 booths and now the number is alot less.<<<
Yes, but remember, the number is *STILL* higher than the number they wanted to close last year. The TA pulled this off admirably.
>>> I still say after all is said and done, the cards good now will still going to work later. <<<
I totally agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's definitely possible -- announce that the cards won't be accepted after 5/5, to reduce hoarding, but don't actually invalidate them, since that would attract the lawyers.
So -- what if I bet on this and hoard Fun Passes, but it turns out that I'm wrong? Will I be able to get my money back without too much trouble? (I don't want to pay $3 to upgrade each one to a new Fun Pass, since I won't be using many Fun Passes at the $7 rate.) Anybody know?
>>> what if I bet on this and hoard Fun Passes, but it turns out that I'm wrong? Will I be able to get my money back without too much trouble? <<<
Probably not since they are trying to discourage hoarding. And they would be within their rights to deny use of the Fun Passes purchased after they announced the shortened expiration dates. It is only the ones purchased before the announcement that should be good. If you have any on hand, you should put them away and purchase new ones for use between now and May 5th. You could get a refund on the pre-announcement cards under a theory of recission of the contract. My guess, with absolutely no inside information, is that at least they would allow you credit for the purchase price of post announcement expired Fun Passes toward stored value MetroCards.
Tom
Interesting point -- although the only announcement I've seen thus far was in the press, not from the MTA or NYCT itself. Anyone who doesn't happen to read the newspaper in question still doesn't know that NYCT isn't honoring its own expiration dates (or is claiming that it won't honor its own expiration dates). Shouldn't there be warnings at the MVM's, either displayed on the screens or taped up next to them?
Incidentally, I ran one of my recently purchased Fun Passes through the MVM at my local station. It told me that the card expired on 05/31/04, in accordance with the date printed on the back. Is it lying to me?
I smell a class action lawsuit.
>>> Shouldn't there be warnings at the MVM's, either displayed on the screens or taped up next to them? <<<
Yes. Aren't they there? If not, my guess is that the MTA is just bluffing about the short expiration dates to prevent hoarding.
Tom
I agree!
I want to join your class action lawsuit. I can use some more money. Of course if we win, it could bankrput the system. If that happens, I proposed SubTalk, Inc. should be formed. We buy the subway system off the city and run it ourselves FOR PROFIT. It was be so much fun. And with all of our bright ideas, ridership would skyrocket and we'd be millionaires in no time at all.
The only people who win in lawsuits are the lawyers who keep 3% plus expenses.
In general most lawsuits are a waste of money to society. All they do is drain valuable resources and cause raises in taxes and prices.
(I smell a class action lawsuit.)
I smell a bluff. They'd have to change (and then test) their software to somehow recognize that your fun passes (and mine) aren't valid, while one purchased on 5/4/03 is valid.
>>> They'd have to change (and then test) their software to somehow recognize that your fun passes (and mine) aren't valid, while one purchased on 5/4/03 is valid. <<<
That would not be a complicated programing problem provided new Fun Passes sold at the higher rate have some distinguishing code on them.
Tom
(That would not be a complicated programing problem provided new Fun Passes sold at the higher rate have some distinguishing code on them.)
Not complicated. But no change to production software that must be 100% (99.99%?) reliable is trivial. It is so easy to break existing code when adding the slightest bit of new code. Only proper testing can assure that you didn't.
"But I only changed one line of code." (The software developer's lament.)
The MTA has a trade-off: spend $x on a software change and $y administrative expense redeeming invalid unlimited passes, or absorb $z in losses on hoarded passes. I predict they'll choose the latter.
Who ever said that new code needs to be written.
Most likely all that need to be done is change a few settings or entries in the database to disallow cards with Identity marker A($4 fun passes) on 5/7 and begin to allow cards with indenty marker B (new fun passes). Most likely this can be done through a user interface utility that is already part of the metrocard software application. It is through this same utility that business logic was put in place that deducts half fare from seniors, allows unlimited ride cards etc. The software should be robust enough to handle these simple business logic(not code) changes.
The company I work for develops software the schedule's, track's, paces, target's, geotarget's, keyword target's advertising campaigns. Each campaign and its charactoristics has a unique identity code inside the server which can be canceled at any time. In addtion new campaign's(metrocard flavors) could be started and overlap existing campaigns. The ad server knows how to identify requests from various web site publishers requesting an advertisment creative and serves only those creatives from campaigns available that meet a whole host of grandular criteria. All of these targeting and scheduling features(business logic) are able to be implimented through a simple user interface application that allows non-technical person to simply check what they want, click on a calendar and tell the system when to start, when to stop. The system can ever allow the operators to target an ad during lunch hour(11am-2PM) time zone adjusted.
It is safe to assume that the metrocard systems control software has these rather basic features to allow the mta to impliment new fares and promotions without the need to physically recode software.
Once the changes are made in the central server, the new barking orders(business rules) need to be disptributed out to the individual nodes(MVM's, turnstyles, etc). This can be done over a network or buy a technician physicaly hooking up a computer to transimitt(reprogram) each individual node.
Just for a frame of reference. The company I work for distributes a new set of business rules to that controls what campaign gets displayed where and other targeting criteria every TWO HOURS. The way it works is that a user enters an new campaign or modifies an existing campaign. The system checks to see if inventory is available. If all is well it distributes the new business rules out to the hundreds of servers who handle the requests situated around the world.
Interesting speculation. You could be right.
Right now though, my vote is still that it's a bluff. But we'll see.
According to the NY Times, the token will no longer be sold as of April 12, 2003.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/nyregion/15TOKE.html?tntemail1
True. This means that the use of tokens will come from however many are sold up to April 12, and those that come out of people's piggy banks, from under mattresses, in cookie jars, etc.
*RUMOR!* RUMOR!* *RUMOR!*
Heard the STRANGEST thing out of my neighbor last night, works for Division of the Budget and might serve to explain why the token might be going away and it's a corker. Nothing set in stone, no bills presented in either house of the legislature *BUT* there's rumblings of applying sales tax to transit in order to raise more money for the state and the concept is that if someone bought a token for $2.00 and sales tax on top of that, it would become penny HELL in the token booths as a result. However, bury it in an adjusted ride on a metrocard, and like so many other state and local taxes, it would become "invisible" ...
Like I said, it's just another of those braincramps up here, but I'd keep an ear to the rail. Doing this just became OH so easy for our porcine ...
(There's rumblings of applying sales tax to transit)
They've got to be kidding. So the subway will be more than covering its operating cost, and shifting 16.5 cents per ride up the river besides?
It's getting ugly. Bloomberg's income tax idea would have been very unfair to the suburbs, and all the proposal suceeded in doing is getting everyone pissed.
Pataki's Medicaid proposal -- shift $200 million in costs to the city and $200 million away from the other counties -- was equally bad.
Then there was the proposal by the Erie County executive -- raise the state sales tax by one percent statewide, and use it to cover the local share of Medicaid EVERYWHERE EXCEPT NEW YORK CITY. The other upstate counties refused to go along, so he resigned from the New York State Association of Counties! Yes sir, we city residents are all profiting riding on the great wealth of Buffalo.
Glad to see the Spirit of 9/11 is still alive and well. I expect Europe (France in particular), the deep south and mid-west to kind of forget about us. I never figured that people in our own state would stab us in the back! But I guess you hit the nail on the head, those few thousand folks in Buffalo are tired of footing the bill for 8 million city residents. The wirlwind economy of Buffalo is world famous.
Yeah, looks like all that gambling just ain't bringing in the cash. AGAIN, this is just another of so many "we might be able to get money here" ideas that come and go at the capit-hole ... but after all, Joe Bruno needs $500,000 for the boxer's fund, $5 million for a new Joey train station in Saratoga to be built this summer, and several million more for cheese museums and the like, and it's gotta come from SOMEWHERE. :(
Amazing how the PORK (no offense, Piggo) continues while the rest of us have to do without.
No offense taken:-)
Glad to see Joey's on track for his next train station (what's next; the Joe Bruno Clipper running between Albany and Saratoga?) while the state's prisons are being told to limit how my styrofoam cups they are using! Good to know that our leaders are watching the important things, there is no telling how many dozens of dollars too many styrofoam cups could add up to, but we know (within a multiple of 10 or so) how much Joe's train stations cost.
It's actually starting to get comical. When you were up here, you were *IN* Joey's district, you got to see his p*nis on the hudson, and you got a few earfuls from his loyal subjects. Joey's still on his spending binge (for his "pals" only) and yet ... state managers have been told to control paper and hand out individual sheets of it AS REQUIRED, employees are no longer to print email (as though they can trust those HP computers and Win98) and color printers are being confiscated.
But it gets BETTER ... OGS (Office of General Services) has told agencies that they're cutting back the toilet paper supply by 75% and there will be *NO* air conditioning. Now sweatshopping is a way of life, folks are used to that. But they're about to violate that most sacrosanct of ALL state realities - "the job ain't finished until the paperwork is done" in the "rest rooms." :O
Meanwhile, Joey's building himself another p*nis ...
state managers have been told to control paper and hand out individual sheets of it AS REQUIRED, employees are no longer to print email (as though they can trust those HP computers and Win98) and color printers are being confiscated.
I have three HP 5 Si Mx 24ppm ($4,899 new in 1995) laser printers with excess capacity. I'd be willing to sell some of that capacity to the government.
---Brian
I don't think I'd want to try to cash a state check right now. :)
Pataki's Medicaid proposal -- shift $200 million in costs to the city and $200 million away from the other counties -- was equally bad.
I've got a better Medicaid proposal -- slash it like crazy. It's an absurd monster of a program that sends money right down the toilet.
It sure doesn't cover medical costs very well.
In my younger days I used various foreign coins as token slugs. I used to like flea markets. I would visit Englishtown, NJ or even something near Phila. and take a token with me. I would then go through the foreign coin "bins" where each was 15 cents and find matches to the token in my pocket.
Over the years coins such as the German Pfennig and the Bahamas one cent penny were used by me for a cheap ride.
When the "slug proof" nickel or stainless steel center was created, I knew people who bought newly minted token slugs with the steel center.
I swore off the use of slugs around 1990, but now there will not be token slugs anymore.
One other thing that will be gone; before the coin return slots were covered up, I used to often find quarters, tokens or slugs in them. Most passengers were not aware of the slot, so I took advantage of that.
Goodbye tokens, you have been with me all of my life.
Don't worry, somebody will sue over the slug "issue" - they'll say that, while actually using a slug may be illegal, the physically ABILITY to do so already existed and thus is a constitutionally protected right. (They'll also lose, as did the the turnstile jumpers who tried a similar argument when the high MetroCard turnstiles replaced the low ones.)
Hi folks:
Just a reminder that the Rockhill Trolley Museum will be sponsoring a charter in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, with SEPTA line car D-39 (which dates back to 1908) and a Kawasaki trolley on SEPTA's Red Arrow Lines on Sunday April 6, 2003. The charter will leave 69th Street Terminal at 10:00 a.m. and last at least four hours. Photo stops will be made at different points. This could be the last time D-39 is ever chartered as a new diesel powered line car is being placed into service as we speak. The trip will be limited to 45 people, to guarantee everyone a seat. The fare is $35 (for adults).
For more information on the charter, go to:
http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/trip2003.htm
This link includes a printable registration form. For telephone information, call Gerhard Salomon at (610)965-9028.
All proceeds from the charter will benefit the Black Log Narrows Track Extension Fund of the Rockhill Trolley Museum.
For more information on the Rockhill Trolley Museum (Railways To Yesterday), go to:
http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/
Matthew Mummert, Rockhill Trolley Museum
It looks like we had 12-9 #4 night. Someone fell under a S/B # 6 train leaving Canal Street at about 9:30PM. At 10 PM #4 service was suspended from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. # 5 Service S/B rerouted down 7 Ave to Chambers street then ran light to Bowling Green to provide limited Uptown Lex service. # 6 Service was suspended South of 59 Street.
According to Transit radio transmissions last night, I believe there was a 12-9 (fatality) around 9 PM at the 14 St-8 Av station involving a southbound (WTC-bound) E train. Power was shut off on A1 track for a while; C trains went express 59 St-Canal St, and some E trains were rerouted down the Sixth Av line from Fifth Av-West 4 St.
Looks like I picked a good time to be in the hospital.
Yow ... there's less stressful venues to lay down and avoid, like your friendly corner bar. Hope it's nothing serious and all goes well. But I can think of better places to hang out and avoid the railroad. :)
Yeah it seems the E and the 6 are having a Race on who can get more days Off.That's 4 12-9's on the E and 6 alone.
How do incidents like these typically (if such a thing exists at all) affect T/O's and C/R's involved? Is it just perceived as fate, in that some things cannot be overcome, or are there cases of substantial regret?
Depends on the individual. I know one guy at VC with 13 12-9s (7 of them fatalities). The last one happened when he was posting a student - the student was so wigged out, he went back to C/R before finishing School Car.
There were three 12-9s on the (#6) line this week 3/11, 3/13 and 3/14
There were two 12-9s on the (E) Line this weet 3/13 & 3/14.
I know two of the T/O's are my partners.
This is starting to get out of hand. Can't these people choose to commit suicide in a way that won't inconvience other people? Why are they dragging us into their problems?
I been asking myself those questions all weekend. I have been hit hard by one of the three 12-9's on the #6 even if I wasn't working that day that fact is I lost a great T/O who keeped me going on some hard weekday nights.
Been in the same situation myself with a motorman that I got along with famously. Only difference was I was ON the train in the middle at the time of the 12-9. He got a few days off and transferred to yard duty. A couple weeks later, he quit. Best friend I ever had too. :(
Is your buddy coming back?
I don't think so.
I hope I'm wrong she was my best partners ever.
Sorry to hear that, but I understand. A *lot* of people who have been in that situation, even on "big" railroads are never the same after their FIRST incident. It changes you forever. Having known several folks who have been in that position personally, it's hard for me to summon up much sympathy for the "victims and their family" because NOBODY ever thinks about the crews also victimized by this. :(
Suggest that at an appropriate time, you try to contact her and let her know that there's little that can be done if someone leaps, falls in front of, etc ... all you can do is dump the train as soon as you see it, the rest is in God's hands. Hopefully some of the other T/O's can talk to her, otherwise she'll spend the rest of her life blaming herself and reliving the moment over and over again thinking that somewhere, somehow she could have changed things. She CAN'T.
>>> A *lot* of people who have been in that situation, even on "big" railroads are never the same after their FIRST incident. It changes you forever. <<<
Doesn't the TA or other railroads do any advance training to prepare T/Os and engineers for the possibility of these occurances?
Tom
I don't think there can be anything that can be done to train or prepare you for a "man under". Just go to the hospital or clinic for trauma counceling.
Does anyone train you in Driver's Ed for the possibility of hitting someone, even accidentally? Any preparation will do you just as good as getting none at all. I see any training as nailing in that you're going to eventually kill someone, and make a person paranoid all the time.
Crews are trained as to procedures for handling such incidents. However, you can't train people not to become emotionally distraught when they are made unwilling accomplices in a suicide or even a homocide - not to mention the inevitable accident.
Call control, check the roadbed and the police are in charge is the extent of the training.
That's what School Car Training is all about...safety rules and regs are giving during such training....new T/Os get this, but also seasoned T/O's need 'refresher classes' couple of years (or as needed).
They teach you what to do when such occurs in schoolcar, and to be SURE that the brake handle is found in "emergency" when inspected. But beyond that, there really isn't much that can be done as far as preparing anyone for it.
I didn't want to be so graphic, but a train that I was working was involved in a 12-9 when I was a conductor. I'll leave it here ... how can you be prepared in advance for someone to leap in front of your train, looking STRAIGHT into YOUR eyes with an almost maniacal GRIN on their face as you kill them? There's just no WAY you can be "prepared" for this. :(
>>> how can you be prepared in advance for someone to leap in front of your train, looking STRAIGHT into YOUR eyes with an almost maniacal GRIN on their face as you kill them? There's just no WAY you can be "prepared" for this. <<<
Sure there is. Simulation through motion pictures of someone jumping in front of a train from the T/O's perspective, actual photos of what a 12-9 looks like, along with discussion ahead of time (in school car) of what kind of feelings of guilt will be experienced and how to cope with them. Soldiers are desensitized to killing ahead of time because there is no time to hold their hands once the killing starts. I am not suggesting that T/Os be trained to kill, but some training which would allow advance knowledge of what the feelings will be like would lessen the effect if and when it happens.
Tom
Hope you don't mind if I don't volunteer for the film crew there. Perhaps it's possible, but the MTA didn't do that in my day and it would appear that they still don't. I really don't know how well that would work though for civilians who just want to do their "people's duties," collect their check and go home.
>>> Perhaps it's possible, but the MTA didn't do that in my day and it would appear that they still don't. <<<
Maybe the problem is exaggerated. What per cent of T/Os ever have even one 12-9? Of those who do, how many give up the job? If the percentages are low enough, desensitizing may not be a good idea since like vaccination, you can expect a few bad results from the process.
Tom
I'll defer the stats to those who have them. I was a conductor on a train that had one so indirectly, I was involved in one - they're obviously not your everyday occurance, but they do happen somewhat frequently. Anyone got the RECENT numbers for Tom?
There is more 12-9's then you know. Most train crews I know had 12-9's. Some it happen shortly after school car and some after 8 Years. I know a few T/O who quit over 12-9's and those still around but pull into a station at 10MPH thinking someone is going to jump.
It's only a matter of time for ANYONE on the road. I won't repeat what we discussed privately, but I sure do wish that people UNDERSTOOD what it's like for the poor bastards in the cab when some MORON decides to do a swan dive. Customers inconvenienced? AWWWWwwwwwww.
Anybody ever think about what the CREW gets put through? Nope. For MOST in the cab when a 12-9 occurs, it's LITERALLY hell on earth. And THEN some. And worst of all, despite how they reflect for the rest of their LIVES, there wasn't a DAMNED thing they could have done to stop it. ESPECIALLY with composite shoes, which add many feet to the stopping time over the "remains." :(
Your right it is almost a matter of time before anyone has a 12-9 less you make a move before it happens to you. As far as I am concerned I just missed my 12-9. If it wasn't my day off I would have had my first.
Count your blessings ... happens to a LARGE percentage of railroad folks ... somewhere in their years. Just make sure that wrench is found in the emergency position by the RCI ... the TRAIN will stop wherever the hell it WANTS to, even if the "remains" are under car 5 or 6. Lawyers don't understand physics, nor do they WANT to (for the benefit of their plaintiff who was dumb (or angry) enough to get UNDER the train in the first place) ...
One of my FEW intractible positions is those who deliberately choose to enjoy the ULTIMATE railfoamer experience, the "undercar view on revenue track with or without photoflash" ... :(
BACK when the TA had "chaplains" (Father Cosgrove) ... those of us in UMD could proudly proclaim, "there but for the Grace of God go I, that I shall not have a 12-9" ... and yes, 12-9's were an ANNUAL lemmings ritual, something we all lived in fear of being OURS. :(
Anybody ever think about what the CREW gets put through? Nope. For MOST in the cab when a 12-9 occurs, it's LITERALLY hell on earth.
In addition hell to go through with both NYPD and TA "authorities". The questioning, the accusations, being sent down for drug testing just add to it that not only have you killed someone but now you have been declared "guilty until proven innocent".
Dave, I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately this is one of the dangers of the job that doesn't get advertised as a "danger". Hopefully she'll be able to get past this and on with her life.
"Why are they dragging us into their problems? "
Please explain who you mean when you say "US"
The riders? workers?
Before we all start yelling that the sky is falling, let's put this into some sort of perspective. I checked back and found that with all of the poor economic news, with all of the job losses, with all of the terrorism fears and with the threat of war looming over us - with all of that, there has been just one more 12-9 this year than as of March 17 in 2002. If you look further - more people have 'fallen' this year than fell in the same time-span last year. Don't JUMP to conclusions (if you'll pardon the pun)!
2002 supposedly had a higher number than recent years, too.
Thanks for your post. Seems you don't like when someone with mental problems inconveniences you -- but you didn't have the common sense to alert transit peronnsel to an open storm door which was a serious hazard to the riding public...hmmmm
This is starting to get out of hand. Can't these people choose to commit suicide in a way that won't inconvience other people? Why are they dragging us into their problems?
Part of the reason, as I mentioned in a different thread, is the lower availabilty of firearms in NYC as compared to most other places.
If that theory was valid, they could just step off the curb and wait to be hit by a taxi or bus ... LOTS of guns upstate and very few suicides ... murder/suicide yes, straight suicide, we have buses ...
I was looking around the pics archived in the R32 section when I came across this CC train...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4692.jpg
I dunno how to link but copy+paste as you would. Are my eyes fooling me or are those doors red?
The doors are actually unpainted stainless steel. By this time (mid-80s?) the blue paint had been stripped from the doors. The red that you see is actually graffiti on one door.
Oh.
Is that near JFK Airport?
Broad Channel station is right in th background.
I think that your eyes are fooling you. It looks to me that there is some graffiti on that train of R-32s rather than the doors having been painted red.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, I already figured it out.
At least we both figure out why the doros were red on some of the R-32s.
#3 West End Jeff
You mean this?
From the mid-70s to early 80s, the door exteriors on the R-32s were painted silver. Then just before GOH, their doors were painted dark blue inside and out. The current unpainted look is a GOH byproduct.
With a lot of room at Grand Central and a direct connection into both the Hudson and New Haven lines, why do most Amtrak trains leave Penn Station to go into Queens and around that hook over Astoria to connect to New Rochelle? Also, is the ride interesting? I looked up at it once from Astoria and it was extremely high, looks like fun. But the thing is, isn't it annoying to have to go out to Queens and come back?
The Penn Station routing allows Amtrak to consolidate all NE Corridor trains into a through route - Washington - NY Penn - Boston instead of one broken in two. The key link is the Hell Gate Bridge, which was built in 1917 and "married" the old Pennsy RR main line to the old New Haven RR main line. Very interesting trip crossing this bridge, especially at dusk with the NY skyline silhoutted against the setting sun.
This route also allows all Amtrak trains access to its Sunnyside shop and yard complex. Any train using Grand Central has no direct access to Sunnyside for servicing, cleaning, and restocking the dining cars.
Do you know how high it is approximately?
I am not sure what Dave has here, but try nycroads.com's Hell Gate Bridge page or the links at the bottom of it.
Between 120 and 150 feet above mean high tide I would guess. That's the standard height for a fixed bridge over a major navicable waterway.
Same answer as in the Marx Brother "why-a-duck" routine.
If you ever tried to make a connection from a train arriving GCT to one departing Penn (or VV--I have) you'd know how important a union station (Penn) is to through travel.
I second that. I once changed from an Amtrak train to MNRR about a year ago and having to take the 1 to the 7 in less than 15 minutes to reach Grand Central to realize you missed the express to Rye by about 5 minutes and the local by about 1 is rather frustrating. But there is an advantage to this: I had 25 minutes to browse the Transit Museum store while waiting for the next train.
I arrived at my hotel in Westchester County about 7 hours after I left my origin outside Washington, DC. I only guessed wrong in predicting if a local or express would arrive first at 34th (I opted for the 1 or 2, a 3 showed first, 9/11 service plan), missed a 7, and the two MNRR trains. But of course, for a railfan, it isn't that big a deal.
"is the ride interesting?"
Yes it is...you get a great view of the NYC skyline going through Penn, unlike GCT via the New Haven Line. -Nick
I'm looking for pictures of the COMPUTER SCREEN in the R142/142A/143 cabs such that I can actually see the lettering. I am very curious as to the format of this screen and what the T/O and C/R sees on it while working.
There are a few shots of it in the R142 section by Nathan Comens.
Well today is the 5th year of posting on subtalk, I entered the ring at the age of 12, knowing little about subways compared to now. I remember how few people there were and the most postings being 30, nothing like the 100-150 post topics. I remember alot of people, who came, and when the place changed left, I remember when it got bad, and when the first hiatus was enacted, I always avioded troublesome topics, its great to see this place bustling 24/7. I remember when I first went on subtalk, we were discussing the Manny B changes, and the B and C line changes. God I was 11/12 when I first posted now I am almost 18. I grew up with subtalk. This place better stay so if I ever have children, I may show them this site. I am happy I know so much and had people who helped me along the way, I hope that you all still continue to help the young kids who walk upon this site looking for subway fans to learn from.
Good post. Glad we could serve you. :)
Subtalk did the same thing for me. Because of it, I now know a lot about the subways.
My thanks again to SubTalk. It's gotten me through a lot. Lord willing, I'll be at Branford Mar 29 & 30th, and meet all you "great people".
Chuck Greene
Subtalk is a great board and has helped immensely in my transition moving to New York. I'm sure it will still be around when the postings come into electrodes wired directly into the neurons in our brains.
(Well today is the 5th year of posting on subtalk, I entered the ring at the age of 12)
Yikes! I don't think of myself as being that different today that I was when I first got access to the internet in 1996, with www.nycsubway.org one of the first things of interest I came across. I was in the "parenting" phase then, and am in the same phase how, albiet with older children.
Yet here you have someone who started posting as a child and is now almost an adult!
Here, here.
It's been just over five years for me. Along the way I've also learned a lot about the NYC subway system and made new friends thanks to this website. Let's give credit where credit is due to our esteemed host, Dave Pirmann.
Not, like, to brag or anything, but thanks to Subtalk I've been able to enrich the English language. Consider how barren our language would be without such pithy expressions as:
suit-covered anuses
cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons
City Council anencephalics
the baby elephant walk
midget anorectic quadruple amputees
Don't forget "PROFF"!!!
Good for you.
I've learned a lot here, too. Keep on posting!
Thanks for that post Chris, you seem to be a very thoughtful individual with many intersting ideas.
On the subject of "growing up" with Subtalk, I can't really say that I did, I first found the site when I was 41 in the fall of 2000. Yet in the way that growing up represents major life changes, I think many of us "grew up" in a never to be forgotten way on September 11, 2002. We will all remember that day as long as we live, but one think about the day I will also remember was my corresponding with SelkirkTMO and Sea Beach Fred that day. I don't think I had untill that day emailed someone from the board, but that day the world changed so much and I felt (and think that was a common feeling) a need to comminicate with people; this board gave me a way to do that. I had no family or close friends in the WTC area so I thankfully didn't lose any family of close friends. But in such a time, being able to reach out to people you relate to was a big help. I had always enjoyed the topics covered by Selkirk and Fred and the good fun they both enjoyed poking at each other and other posters. It also enabled me to converse with one person who I almost always disagree with politically and another I often agree with. That also help me to begin to understand what had just happened that day.
I hope I didn't wake up any difficult memories, but I felt a need to share that.
Piggo
Yet in the way that growing up represents major life changes, I think many of us "grew up" in a never to be forgotten way on September 11, 2002. We will all remember that day as long as we live, but one think about the day I will also remember was my corresponding with SelkirkTMO and Sea Beach Fred that day. I don't think I had untill that day emailed someone from the board, but that day the world changed so much and I felt (and think that was a common feeling) a need to comminicate with people; this board gave me a way to do that. I had no family or close friends in the WTC area so I thankfully didn't lose any family of close friends. But in such a time, being able to reach out to people you relate to was a big help.
I was at work that morning, no one seemed to have a radio around, and all the news Web sites like CNN were overloaded and unavailable. Subtalk actually served as a very helpful source of news. It's how I first found out that all commuter rail was stopped, for example.
Yes, I remember discovering this site about six years ago too when I was a freshman at Drexel University. A couple of friends of mine were discussing the long-promised Second Avenue Subway, and I thought it would be a good topic to report on for an engineering class. So I serached for articles on line about the SAS, came upon this site. Sure enough, there was a lot of good stuff, and then there was the Subtalk message board. I found so many topics of interest that I kept coming back. There's a lot of things I never would have known about like the IND Second System, the unused station at Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights or the false wall at 63rd and Lex. I also learned a lot about subway and light rail systems in America and around the world by coming here. Although I sometimes spend a little too much time on this site, I will continue to come back and enjoy it as it continues to grow.
Thanks Dave!
Just under two years ago on the first SubTalk DC trip, someone noticed that the middle two cars of a blue line train entering Franconia-Springfield did not have the letters AC under their number plates. The two cars in question were 1100 and 1101. Since the operator who was going to take us back towards downtown was delayed (the train we had come in on had a door problem and had been taken out of service), she wasn't exactly in a mood to answer questions about the two cars. After seeing the set a few times in the past two years on the Red and Blue Lines, I got on the Metro yesterday morning. I missed a train of Bredas, but as the case can sometimes be, missing a train is a good thing. The next train was right behind the Bredas and the lead car was 1101. The cab door does have the letters AC on it. Also, if you actually ride the car itself, you will hear the AC motors at each and every stop. At Grosvenor, I asked the operator if he knew anything about the cars. At first he didn't realize what I was talking about, then told me "All cars have AC motors". I got my pictures and continued on my way (details of that are on BusTalk).
That afternoon, I rode Breda 3119 (which most definately did not have AC traction) to Bethesda. En route to the escalator, I glanced up at the PIMS display and it said a train to Shady Grove was arriving. I could hear the sounds of a Rohr train from behind me and sure enough, the train did consist of Rohr cars being lead by 1101. As if there was any doubt when I rode the car this morning about if it had AC traction, now there was none. Got my pictures and continued on my way again, this time, without talking to the operator.
I guess they ran out of A and C labels to add to the car exteriors, seems to be the only explanation for why they don't have the markers.
I bought a roll of 10 tokens last week and among the normal, plain MARTA tokens was a token made for the Olympics in 1996. There are always various commemorative tokens that MARTA mints for special occasions and they are still floating around. Would something like this a valuable one day? Should I keep it for the heck of it? I'm not a collector of fare madia, so that's why I'm asking.
I would keep it, if I was you. If you don't want it let me know by e-mail how much was it and I will send you the money + Shiping it to me.
Robert
I think I'm going to keep this one. But the next one I run into, I'll email you.
Token collectors tend to be cheep scapes so 2 or 3 the original value is about all you can expect the value to rise to.
On E-bay or Yahoo you would be likely to do better from a non collector.
I know the NTSB investigates all transportation accidents on national networks (trains, planes, ships), but I've never heard them being called for a subway accident. Are local transit systems part of the NTSB's jurisdiction? If not, is it just a local investigation?
the NTSB I believe was there for Union Square and Willy B.
"Are local transit systems part of the NTSB's jurisdiction?"
NYCTA notifies the NTSB of all main line collisions and derailments (as well as some other incidents). They determine whether to respond, based on the severity of the accident. Locally, the NYS DOT PTSB is responsible for investigating these accidents. In serious accidents, it is not uncommon for both groups (NTSB and PTSB) to be conducting simultaneous investigations.
If it moves, the NTSB can investigate it.
Go to their website and read the gory details.
Elias
Yes.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/R_Acc.htm
Do a search on 'subway' and you come with some famous accidents. I remember the DeKalb derailment of 85 and how heroically it screwed up commuting.
They don't seem to have anything on the Lex/Union Sq disaster -- but then, this was VERY quickly established to be the direct fault of a drunken TO.
There was also that huge derailment of the IRT at Times Sq back in the 80s, I guess it was. I see no mention of that -- and THAT was a real mess too.
They seem to only investigate some accidents.
Okay, I know that some people here are subway conductors. So I'm just wondering if it was one of you who was on the A line yesterday, the northbound R-38 consist that arrived at 42nd at about 10:30 AM. This dude gave a brief history of Columbus Circle and the 125th Street stations.
Whoever it was, that was a great job!
I just came in from Saturday School, and when I got to Euclid Avenue Station, there was a whole lot of smoke spreading through the station, Then I saw 1 TA Personnel go down on the tracks and go into the tunnel to investigate, the smoke was coming in from the Queens end of the Euclid Avenue and the Manhattan End the station was clear, They held a Queens-Bound A Train in the station for about 5-7 mins, and then when they were finally signalled to leave they were going real slow, the smoke was in the way, Does anybody have any info on this?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I'd guess a work train had just come through with the diesel stupidly being in diesel mode and not third rail mode. Similar to the photo below:
Take Pride,
Brian
Could be. I was working at 15 St-Prospect Pk on the F when a work train pased by. It kicked up so much smoke, I thought there was a fire on the platform.
It didn't smell like a diesel, it smelled like fire, and they stopped all trains from passing the section until it was clear to go, but was told to go very slow. And I asked one of the guys there that work at Euclid Avenue, they said they didn't see no Diesel Trains going past.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modelind Inc - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling Here!
Apparently most P40s are going to storage, because the P42s are more fuel efficient. About the only ones left in regular service are those on the AutoTrain. P40s are liked there because the P40 does not give you a brake penalty like a P42 (after you apply the brakes, you must release in so many seconds or throttle back or you will lose your amperage). With a long train like AT, it seems they like to use the brakes a lot (and keep the power on).
From Trainorders.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Apparently most P40s are going to storage, because the P42s are more fuel efficient.
Oh well. Gotta love a rail system who's costs are tightly tied to the cost of oil...
(The one saving grace is the NEC. Even though the per locomotive costs of operating electrics is slightly higher for Amtrak, because one will directly replace two diesels, the overall cost is lower, and in any case, Amtrak makes good utilization of the existing motor fleet, IIRC they average 150,000+ miles a year per loco, so all of the AEM-7's have already pretty much accumulated mileages comperable to the GG-1s...)
About the only ones left in regular service are those on the AutoTrain.
There's a reason for this, and it's....
P40s are liked there because the P40 does not give you a brake penalty like a P42 (after you apply the brakes, you must release in so many seconds or throttle back or you will lose your amperage)
Duh. GE finally figured out nobody reads the operating manual, thus they read it to the computer, which now gets final say in these matters. I bet at zeromph, if you hamfist the throttle into run 8 with the brakes applied, nothing happens. As opposed to burning up the traction motors.
This isn't to say braking with power is a bad bad thing, but it shouldn't be needed on passenger trains anyway, and it leaves the door open to all sorts of operator abuse.
With a long train like AT, it seems they like to use the brakes a lot (and keep the power on).
Because the Auto Train has direct release brakes on it, because that thing's too long for a regular passenger train brake, and Amtrak won't touch eletro-pneumatic braking for some reason (despite being practically standard equipment elsewhere in the US - AFAIK, all of the LIRR's current diesel and electric fleets use it, and I think the Silverliners and all use it too.). Since you need to use power braking, the P-40s will stay on the AT.
Heh, I thought the LIRR had a need to reduce expenses. Imagine my surprise to see that a ticket vending machine is being installed at Medford station. Medford is on the branch line to Greenport and sees only a few trains per day. Its daily ridership is maybe fifty, most of whom are regular commuters with monthly or weekly tickets.
It's theoretically possible that there is a valid reason why the LIRR is going through the expense of installing a ticket machine, but I sure don't see it.
What a dumb station for a ticket vending machine. What is that like 4 trains a day from that station (1/2 of which only go east)? I can think of many stations that don't have them where it would be a lot more useful.....unless they were planing to run Speonk-like service between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead (which is what I feel they really should be doing there).
"It's theoretically possible that there is a valid reason why the LIRR is going through the expense of installing a ticket machine, but I sure don't see it."
How about a reduction in cash management costs? It is possible that passengers there are paying for their ride in large bills and the conductor is seeing his available change shrink early in the ride.
With a ticket vending machine:
1) LIRR eliminates the need for a manned ticket office
2) Eliminates daily cash handling at that station except by the TVM service contractor.
3) Can demand a $2 surcharge from passengers who ignore the TVM, increasing MTA revenue
MTA doesn't install one TVM at a time. The agency installs a whole bunch at a time. So one more or less in a bunch doesn't make a lot of difference.
In fact, it may be (I am speculating here) that the TVM doesn't cost MTA anything at all. When medical laboratory equipment makers and commercial photocopier manufacturers offer you their services, they'll often give you the machinery for free; they make money selling chemicals, paper, and processing services. If I were a ticket vending machine contractor, I would partner with a bank and say this to MTA: "If you pay for our cash management services, our armored truck service, ticket printing service and accounting services, we'll supply the machines for free (or for a really trivial cost).
1) LIRR eliminates the need for a manned ticket office
2) Eliminates daily cash handling at that station except by the TVM service contractor.
3) Can demand a $2 surcharge from passengers who ignore the TVM, increasing MTA revenue
What you say is correct, but:
Do you remember that we are talking about MEDFORD, where there is ONE rush hour train in the morning, only TWO in the evening, and maybe one mid day round trip? It would take them a century to recoup the $2.00 "on train" fare from the 40-50 or so regular (mostly monthly passholder) passengers that use this station. Now if they gave this station (along with Yaphank and Riverhead) the "normal" service these stations really need, this would be a different story.
>>> Do you remember that we are talking about MEDFORD, where there is ONE rush hour train in the morning, only TWO in the evening, and maybe one mid day round trip? <<<
No matter how small the station, and how infrequently the machine will be used, good business practice requires that there be a method to buy a ticket there. The LIRR can be faulted only if they placed a machine there when other busier stations are going without a method to buy a ticket because that machine was installed.
Tom
(No matter how small the station, and how infrequently the machine will be used, good business practice requires that there be a method to buy a ticket there.)
That's probably true. Maybe the problem is that there is a Medford station at all. If there was a store nearby, however, perhaps they could have had the store owner sell tickets. When I took a bus home from the Catskills recently, I bought a ticket in a store that had some kind of linkup with Trailways.
Maybe the problem is that there is a Medford station at all. If there was a store nearby, however, perhaps they could have had the store owner sell tickets. When I took a bus home from the Catskills recently, I bought a ticket in a store that had some kind of linkup with Trailways.
Medford had been scheduled for closing when the bi-level trains were introduced, but was reprieved and got a high-level platform constructed.
There are some businesses in the immediate vicinity of the station, but none that are open in the early mornings, so not all trains could be served. Besides, the LIRR unions would never stand for such an arrangement.
I don't think the problem is that there is a station at Medford. The problem is that the LIRR refuses to believe that ate area east of Ronkonkoma has grown considerably, and 1960's train service doesn't cut it anymore. It just amazes me that this resource (the mainline from Ronkonkoma to Riverhead) is just so underused, and would have so many more passengers if they even made it SOMEWHAT convenient to use. They need to run as much service there as they do on the Patchogue to Speonk segment. It's the chicken and egg scenario. No one rides because there are basically no trains, and it's very inconvenient. Then they claim low ridership, so they won't increase service. They don't increase service, so no one rides.
"I don't think the problem is that there is a station at Medford. The problem is that the LIRR refuses to believe that ate area east of Ronkonkoma has grown considerably, and 1960's train service doesn't cut it anymore. It just amazes me that this resource (the mainline from Ronkonkoma to Riverhead) is just so underused, and would have so many more passengers if they even made it SOMEWHAT convenient to use."
That's true. It's also true that Suffolk County from around RT 112 eastwards has paid a price for the insularity that has resulted. Not too long ago it was more country-like. But so many of the small lots have been built on, there are now few undeveloped areas. The local arterials are all jammed. It's time for the mainline to offer service similar to areas west of Ronkonkoma and Patchogue.
I'll go one further: Reopen stations at Holbrook, Holtsville, and Manorville.
I'll go one further: Reopen stations at Holbrook, Holtsville, and Manorville.
I agree with that. The area around Manorville has exploded in the last 7 years. Holtsville has also. I would propost the following stations, with "Patchogue to Speonk" like service (hourly to every 45 minutes during rush hours) and every 2 1/2 hours to 3 hours during the day. They can alsways increase that in the future.
Ronkonkoma
Holtsville
Medford
Yaphank
Manorville
Tanger Outlet Center (which is right next to the tracks)
Riverhead
They can maybe add one extra round trip train to what they do currently between Riverhead and Greenport.
I'll go one further: Reopen stations at Holbrook, Holtsville, and Manorville.
I agree with that. The area around Manorville has exploded in the last 7 years. Holtsville has also. I would propost the following stations, with "Patchogue to Speonk" like service (hourly to every 45 minutes during rush hours) and every 2 1/2 hours to 3 hours during the day. They can alsways increase that in the future.
Ronkonkoma
Holtsville
Medford
Yaphank
Manorville
Tanger Outlet Center (which is right next to the tracks)
Riverhead
They can maybe add one extra round trip train to what they do currently between Riverhead and Greenport.
Not only is this a sensible plan, but it wouldn't be terribly expensive, requiring probably only two additional trainsets. While new platforms at Holtsville and Manorville would be required, the cost of building them would be less than the cost of adding more parking at Ronkonkoma, as will be necessary before long if the service east of there isn't improved. Tanger would need a platform too, but the center's operator probably would pick up the tab.
Of course, the one fly in the ointment is the reluctance of most LIRR riders, especially the s.c.a. types, to change trains. Getting the Holy Grail of a (drumroll please) Single-Seat Ride might keep most of the people in the new service zone driving to Ronkonkoma regardless of how convenient the new service may be. Just consider all the people, probably in the thousands, who drive to Ronkonkoma-line stations despite living much closer to stations along the Montauk or Port Jefferson lines. As parking at Ronkonkoma gets more and more scarce, this reluctance may break down - get to Ronkonkoma much after 7:30 and you're out of luck - but it won't be easy.
Another issue would be how fast can the trains operate relative to the speed of driving. Further west driving speeds approach 0, but way out east people way still be able to average 70 mph on the LIE.
Not sure of the answer, either of train speed or car speeds in rush hour out there.
You are right, you can drive a bit faster out here than further in. However, in the 8 years I've been living out here, I've seen the Sunrise Hwy begin to get jammed between Route 112, and William Floyd Parkway, and the LIE is definitely also about a crawl rush hours approaching Route 112 (where the HOV lane is already extended to) and east of there too, much more than when I first moved out here.
It's getting worse each year, and seeing that the Medford station is on Route 112, we are already in the corridor of the mainline east of Ronkonkoma. Something is going to have to give. Traffic is getting worse. They are not going to be able to ignore this unused resource anymore. The only saving grace is that at least there is the "limited " service they do run on the mainline. It could be worse, it could look like the Wading River Branch between Port Jeff and Wading river (another spot that could really use the service). At least the chance exists that they may increase service to Riverhead one day.
It could be worse, it could look like the Wading River Branch between Port Jeff and Wading river
What does that look like?
If memory serves, it's been abandoned for at least the past five decades. It was part of an effort to extend the present Port Jefferson branch to Riverhead, which, of course, did not materialize.
If memory serves, it's been abandoned for at least the past five decades. It was part of an effort to extend the present Port Jefferson branch to Riverhead, which, of course, did not materialize.
I believe it was abandoned in the late 1930's.
The "worse" comment with respect to the Wading River branch most likely refers to the fact that the existing Port Jefferson line offers a rather slow trip into Penn Station due to its roundabout routing. In other words, even if the Wading River branch were reopened (which won't happen, most of the r-o-w is gone), few people would find it a useful way of getting to Penn Station beause it would take too long. In contrast, the main (Ronkonkoma) line is arrow-straight and much faster. Trips to Penn Station from points east of Ronkonkoma would be relatively fast despite the long distance.
Correct-my memory was off a bit. LIRRhistory.com places the abandonment at March 20th, 1939. Having trekked about the area quite a bit, my observation was also that most of the ROW is gone, which is not at all surprising given how long ago it was left for nature and others to reclaim it.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/wading.html
The Port Jefferson branch past Huntington has really long headways too. I wonder why the serpentine route was chosen for the line. The Montauk line, also by the shore, weaves around, but not nearly so much.
Could it be the same reason Robert Moses' parkways meander and curve so much, that not every farmer wanted to sell to the railroads. Also, I'm sure there were political considerations and and compromises. That, of course, wouldn't explain why the Nassau lines are so straight!
Actual, there is a story to why there are major bends in some parts of the Port Jefferson Branch. I forgot which station it is (maybe some of the LIRR guys here can elaborate), but one of the stations on the PJ Branch had a major battle with the LIRR when they were building the line. I don't remember the details (and don't feel like searching for it now), but I believe the town in question wanted the station in one spot, and the LIRR wanted in the other, and in the end, the LIRR completely avoided the town when the line was ultimately built, just to spite them. I wish I remembered which town that was.
Anyway, the mainline was built very straight for a different reason. The Mainline out to Greenport is the original LIRR line, and it was not meant to serve as a "local" line. It was built as a route from New York to Boston via rail and ferry, because it was determined at the time that it was not possible to build along the coast of Conn (which the New Haven ultimately did). They chose the stright, uninhabited middle of the island route, because that was to be the fastest way through LI. Later when the LIRR started to service local towns, the other branches are built more curved because they were supposed to got throught the heart of many of the towns it served. Back then when the LIRR was the only form of transportation, it was prosporous for the towns if the LIRR would go through the town.
It was Cold Spring Harbor.
Thanks! I thought it was the bend at Cold Spring Harbor, but didn't want to say a town, because I wasn't sure.
Could it be the same reason Robert Moses' parkways meander and curve so much, that not every farmer wanted to sell to the railroads. Also, I'm sure there were political considerations and and compromises. That, of course, wouldn't explain why the Nassau & Queens lines are so straight!
Moses, I assume, had a legislature fully willing to use the takings. I've not heard anything much to the contrary, really, and I say this having read the very nice book by Robert Caro, "The Power Broker: Robbert Moses and the Fall of New York."
Legislatures since have been wary, and in recent years, ardently opposed to takings, e.g., the watershed policy.
>> if the Wading River branch were reopened (which won't happen, most of the r-o-w is gone) <<
My sister lives out that way, so I've inspected the ROW when I had a chance. It is used by LIPA overhead power lines, so actually, most of it is still reasonably available. I'm sure the railroad could be rebuilt at least to Rocky Point with little trouble. It might still never happen, but as the area gets more developed and traffic worsens things may change (although increased development also brings increased NIMBYs).
Theoretically, yes, the line is intact enough that physically it would not be to much of a problem to bring trains back to it. The NIMBY's you mention are the real obstacle if a plan like that was to ever materialize.
Do you know places on Long Island where there are NIMBYS?
Anywhere where there is no train service, but should be.
They should electrify the Main Line to at least Yaphank, with stops
at Medford, and Yaphank.
No need for bringing back the Holbrook station, there really isnt room for it and its close to Ronkonkoma. Holtsville would then be too close to Medford,
But something has to be done, cause the area around the train station
is be paved all over. It is ridiculous how far you have to park.
And while I am at it, how about more express trains, the only decent
express is the 5:41 from Penn, and that is the last one if I am not mistaken.
As for a one seat ride from Port Jeff, the double deckers go into Penn
so there already is a one seat ride.
And while I am at it, how about more express trains, the only decent express is the 5:41 from Penn, and that is the last one if I am not mistaken.
You are correct.
Even though I live only a few miles from the Medford station, I can't use it if there's any possibility that I'll be staying late at work. I have to drive to Ronkonkoma, which I utterly detest, though lately I've been using Stony Brook - a longer drive, but convenient free parking and nice spacious diesel coaches.
It could be worse, it could look like the Wading River Branch between Port Jeff and Wading river
What does that look like?
Have you seen photos of the old Rockaway Branch in Queens? Well that is what it looks like without the rails still there, and it has Power Lines run across it. Because of the power lines, the ROW itself is still "intact" for the most part, meaning that it has not really been sold off like other RR ROW's.
I brought it up basically because I was trying to say that as bad as service on the Mainline east of Ronkonkoma is, at least it's still a railroad, and is not abandoned like the Wading River Branch. If they had abandoned the mainline years ago, instead of riding the joke of service they have on it now, there would be no chance of ever starting service on it now. At least the chance exists, unlike the Wading River Branch. As bad as service on the mainline is, the alternative could be worse.
See Here for more information on the Port Jeff to Wading River Branch
If they build it, they will come // If they improve the service, it will be used.
In fact, it may be (I am speculating here) that the TVM doesn't cost MTA anything at all. When medical laboratory equipment makers and commercial photocopier manufacturers offer you their services, they'll often give you the machinery for free; they make money selling chemicals, paper, and processing services. If I were a ticket vending machine contractor, I would partner with a bank and say this to MTA: "If you pay for our cash management services, our armored truck service, ticket printing service and accounting services, we'll supply the machines for free (or for a really trivial cost).
It's possible that the MTA has a deal like that with the TVM vendor, but I've never heard of it. My guess is that there's no such deal.
Something will be done, if not in our life times, then in the next
generation, after all there are something like 3 million people in
Nassau / Suffolk alone, and you can only widen the expressway so much!
Oh, wait, at the rate that the cost of living keeps going on the island, you'll scare the people away!
Sorry for the lack of a colorful announcement but here goes:
Chatham Square will be held tonight at 7:30 PM ET as it is most Saturday nights. Please click here to enter the room.
I'll be there!
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/realestate/16COV.html?8hpib
When did Springfield Gardens Station close? On a 1974 map it is still clearly on there.
It closed around 1981. I can't remember exactly when.
The station platform sat there abandoned until around 1992 after closing.
Hey, it was still on Hagstrom's 1991 NYC map.
With a million pieces of information in their database, it isn't surprising they forgot to delete one - I'll bet there are other details in that Hagstrom's that needed editing.
I've heard that sometimes Hagstrom's sometimes "forgets" to change some of their infomation. It allows them to see if their competitors are copying them.
And I've heard otherwise. They make enough real mistakes to tell if someone is copying them.
My editions show Water St as a narrow cowpath on Map 1 (lower Manhattan), but shows it fully widened in the blowup of downtown.
If you switch between pages where there are overlaps, you sometimes notice subtle differences.
They showed the now-demolished portion of the Myrtle el clear into the 80s. And I've always wondered if Lexington Av is as wide as their maps imply, or if this is just a leftover from when they erased the el from it.
Hagstroms still showed Parkville and Westbridge on its 1990s editions...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The story from the Boston Globe.
The MBTA needs to raise it's fares. They've waited so long on price increases (it took them a decade to go from 85 cents to a dollar) I don't know if they will ever balance their budget.
It doesn't surprise me that a Democrat is speaking out on this, since the article notes that those who make a low income (usually but not always means minorities) will be effected by this hike the most. -Nick
If at first you don't succeed... The story from the Boston Globe.
Man, they're still screwing around with those cars? IMHO, return them to Breda and buy from someone else. It's the vendor's job to make the product work, not the customer's!!!
Yeah! Give Boeing-Vertol a second chance!
Oh, there's a recipe for disaster. I say revive the PCC design with updated traction (i.e., AC inverters), and modern materials, and so on. Go for the evolutionary upgrade.
It's the vendor's job to make the product work, not the customer's!!!
NOPE!
It is the city's responsibility to select equipment compatible with their infrastructre.
Just cause you got two rails 4'8.5" apart doesn't mean that anthing can run on them. Those tracks were laid with conventional railway trucks in mind. These low riding cars don't have any trucks (as far as I can see from some pictures of European low-riding cars), the wheels seem to be set to the frame, possibly without even having axels, and so the rigid frame needs a much smoother, gentler track geometry than anything that was laid so many years ago.
I'd love to se some diapgrams of the wheelset arrangements on this type of equipment, but it certainly appears to not be compatable with green dinosaurs.
Elias
Phil is correct. Offering a bid, signing a contract obligates the vendor to provide, manufacture to the specs in the paperwork. If MBTA said 'suitable for our trackage' or any verbiage similar Breda is responsible for such performance. If they can't engineer a low floor design which works on MBTA's tracks then they were fools to bid. It would be instructive to send a couple of the Hudson-Bergen/NCS cars up there. The NCS is not brand new fully manicured trackage.
^^^"It would be instructive to send a couple of the Hudson-Bergen/NCS cars"^^^
NCS-Yes; HBLR-No. Even though the car are identical [almost], they
cannot be exchanged amongst themselves, without exchanging wheels.
Different profile for each system. >GG<
8-) Sparky
I stand corrected. The wheel profile issue, however, makes my point. Cars are delivered to specs of the buyer's system. The Vreda/MBTA court minuet will be ugly.
I was under the impression that they went to the manufacturer and bought equipment off the shelf. If such was not the case, then whoever did the engineering would have to bear the responsibility..
Elias
Todd or others in Boston please correct any errors. My understanding is the following routine be it the T or others.
step 1 was the T advertised for bidders to produce a number of cars to meet certain specs. step 2 was bids were received from interested partioes. step 3 a 'qualified' bidder was selected. step 4 prototypes were delivered for test and evaluation. step 5 production units begin delivery. The precise details may vary, but since there is NOT a Standard LRV (or subway car) each TA writes its own specs based on local conditions, ADA and other Fed requirements if Fed money is involved. For example most "domestic content" has become assemble within a state or county where the TA in question levies taxes--CAF is assembling DC Metro cars in MD, BART had cars assenbled in Contra Costa County, K'saki in Tarrytown, Bomb. in Plattsburgh etc. The short term jobs are a gain for politico's but quality at a startup plant is rarely excellent.
David, to the best of my knowledge your scenario is correct. There's no "off the shelf" LRV. Boston's problem was compounded by the requirement that the Type-8s be made to be compatible with the Type-7s (after Type-7 mods by the same contractor), so that they can run in trains together. That way, for example, a two- or three-car train containing at least one Type-8 can satisfy ADA.
So far, two Type-7s (3622 and 3682) have been so modified. They can run only in trains with Type-8s, or paired together. These two cars cannot be run in trains with unmodified Type-7s. (On a related note, the modified Type-7s and the new Type-8s have "new" LCD route displays which are unreadable until the car is nearly on top of you. They are replacing the old back-lit curtain signs used on the Boeing LRVs and Type-7s, which one can see (seemingly) from the other side of the city :-) OOPS!
Todd, thanks for the comments. several years ago when visiting my step-son we waited over an hour at Gov't Ctr(?) so we could ride an 8. Indeed it was coupled to a 7. At the time I was underwhelmed. They seemed cramped, and certainly not as well thought out as the HB/NCS cars. As to the signage, this seems to be a national trend--MUNI is replacing the curtains on the LRV-2 (first order Breda's) with electronics. Results 1. less visible and alternates displaying the word "Destination" 2. inability to follow through on aborted color-coding of routes--another useful visual aid on a crowded platform. It has taken 20 YEARS for the buses out here to buy a few legible electronic signs--'course we of low vision are transit dependent so catering to us is apparently low priority.
Only two Type 7s have LCD signs? I thought I saw several, but it could be faulty memory.
I thought more than two do as well... I use the Kenmore station 2-3 times a day
-Harry
NYCrail.com - 3000+ high quality subway photos
"(On a related note, the modified Type-7s and the new Type-8s have "new" LCD route displays which are unreadable until the car is nearly on top of you. They are replacing the old back-lit curtain signs used on the Boeing LRVs and Type-7s, which one can see (seemingly) from the other side of the city :-) OOPS!"
Yeah, this is a problem. I don't mind electronic signs, but they should have gone with LED instead. Even the Bombardier 01800s LCD's are hard to read too. -Nick
I always wondered why those cars had LCD signs. They are pretty hard to read, I wonder why they didn't invest in LEDs.
<<< but since there is NOT a Standard LRV >>>
There isn't? What about the Siemens LRVs that run in Denver, Salt Lake City, Sacramento and San Diego? Siemens also makes the Combino, a modular LRV whose length and width can be customized, but it was completely designed, tested and developed by Siemens. They'd be perfect for the street-running B, C and E branches of the Green Line, but probably not the D with its high-speed railroad ROW.
perhaps Kawasaki would have a different opinion? Even in my dreams (BUDD redux) you never want 'sole sources'. I am aware that San Jose is selling off high level cars to other agencies.
They should bought the Combino from Siemens (they're already buying from Siemens for the Blue Line).
Todd. Originally the problem was the center section of the car which had no independent truck. Also wheel profiles were modified prior to the 8's arrival. Later type 8's had severe braking and propolsun logic problems which forced them off the rails again until the systems were corrected. The cars have been running test cars on the Boston College line with out problems or incidents and to also receive there DTE 5000 burn in milage.
I was on the F to Queens this afternoon, and noticed that after leaving 21st St, the tunnel bears to the left, but it looked as if there was some indication that they intended for tracks to branch
off another line? Or then again maybe it was, just how the tunnel was built, any insight?
While leaving 21 St, going towards Roosevelt, the tracks do veer left, but you see space for tracks to continue straight. This was a provision to have the tracks be a super express. From 21 St, the tunnel was supposed to go straight but then they built the conenctor and thus the tunnel now veers off to the left.
The bellmouth also will allow future connections to the propsed Sunnyside yard that the MTA has discussed building.
The straight portion was to have gone above ground along the LIRR ROW to Forest Hills.
Maybe it would have went along the LIRR ROW to Jamaica Ave then it would have connected with the J line going into the tunnel going to Jamaica Center.
No. You're referring to something else. There were plans for additional subway service along old LIRR trackage. Check out other parts of this website or previous threads.
On Saturdays and Sunday mornings there's a convenient express train from Hoboken going north to Orange County; and on Saturday and Sunday evenings there's a convenient express return trip back. For one reason or another I take advantage of this trip.
This morning began with the engine missing. The cars were there, parked in Hoboken on its regular track, but no engine, nor crew, in sight. Right at the departure time, the old diesel comes backing up, and couples up to the train. The crew shows up, and in five minutes has the train ready to leave.
This is actually not the first time the engine was not there. A little side comment, here: there was a thread last week where it was claimed that it was just too labor-intensive to break up and put together subway trains, in order to run short trains during the overnight hours. It was claimed that savings on the wear and tear on full length trains wasn't worth the extra manpower needed to break them up and put them together.
Now, each time this happens, NJ Transit is somehow able to couple up a diesel engine, and get everything going in a matter of minutes, and I can't see how subway trains would require that much more work than diesel trains. But anyway, back to today's story...
This morning it took longer than usual to get going. I was in the last car, and the radio in the cab happened to be on, so I heard the engineer complaining about some kind of a problem with the engine. But, in any case, it was fixed a little bit later, so we left Hoboken only about ten minutes late.
About forty minutes later, as we were passing Ramsey, NJ, I get pulled away from reading my book by the sound of air dumping out of emergency brakes. My girlfriend doesn't notice anything at first (the sound is not very loud, especially when riding an old diesel rattlecage, and the brakes don't really slow things down very fast when going full speed) but after ten years one tends to get quite sensitized to such a distinctive sound, and its usual implication. So I tell her that we're stopping NOW, and we'll be delayed for quite some time. I don't hear the horn blowing, so I don't think we're about to hit anything, so that's good.
I can't make out everything that comes out of that radio in the cab, but I clearly make out the engineer radioing that he had to apply emergency brakes because someone ran across the tracks in front of him, when we were passing the Ramsey station, and he doesn't know if he hit 'em.
A few garbled messages later I hear "looks OK", but "I will take a look". Over the next fifteen minutes, I observe the conductor outside, paired up with a big guy in a blue NY Rangers hockey jersey, slowly walk the length of the train, carefully looking under each axle.
Fortunately, nobody found anything, and I only ended up about half an hour late. When the conductor went back to the train, he announced an apology for a delay due to "mechanical difficulties."
Incidentally, the train is supposed to connect to a shuttle bus for the Woodbury Commons shopping mall. I understand that the stupid bus driver left without waiting for the late train. I don't know if any shoppers were headed up there this morning, but those that did ended up really getting screwed, and stranded for at least four hours.
But the best is yet to come: the evening trip back. It began with missing shock absorbers in the car we were sitting. At least that's what it felt like. Made for a fun trip. Then, as we were passing through Fair Lawn, we got a break from the bump-n-grind as the train slowly came to a gentle, smooth stop. Some time later, a burly guy walks through the train, and announces that we're reversing back to Ridgewood, then reversing back over to the main line, because someone jumped under the train in front of us.
Some time later, an announcement is made that we're not moving anywhere. The police won't let any train move anywhere. Doesn't make any sense to me, but what do I know.
Immediately afterwards, the conductor walks to the vestibule between the cars, and cranks up the parking brakes.
We resumed moving an hour later. I didn't see any police activity, they must've all left.
The good news is that I caught up a lot on my reading, today...
"Now, each time this happens, NJ Transit is somehow able to couple up a diesel engine, and get everything going in a matter of minutes, and I can't see how subway trains would require that much more work than diesel trains."
Not a valid comparison. Subway trains run on tighter schedules. If NJ Transit is four minutes late putting out a train from Hoboken, I might have cause for complaint about service attitudes, but it won't make the following trains late on lines where service frequencies are 30 minutes.
Try that on the Queens Blvd. subway and you've got a major disaster on your hands.
I have just been told that the R-17 Rider Car in the MTH Work Train set has a different road number than the R-17 rider car offered for separate sale.
The separate sale car number is RD339!
Can anyone tell me what the road number is on the rider car in the work train set?
The work train set on display at the Transit Museum shop had an R-17 work motor instead of a rider car. I think the number was 36740, but don't quote me on that.
That is a new one for me.
I didn't know that MTH had produced a motorized version.
I didn't mean to imply the car was motorized. I don't know if it is or not (I doubt it; I'm sure only the locomotive is), but it carries the number of a prototypical work motor, not a rider car (possibly to address the issue of the side windows not being covered over).
Karl, I believe that the car number is RD367. At least that's what it looks like in the MTH catalog. The rider car is starting to show up on e-bay as part of set 'break-ups'. The bids are insane.
BTW, have you seen the new K-Line 2003 catalog? They are jumping on the NYCT bandwagon, too. They have a NYCT tank car (actually 2 different road numbers), a crane car and tender and ballast cars.
The tank car is very pretty but it's 2-dome and NYCT uses only single dome tankers. (I still bought one)
The crane car is definitely not the prototypical NYCT crane car & there are no crane tenders.
The 'ballast cars' are actually ore cars painted in NYCT colors and would really work. There are 4 cars in the set. They's also made 2 different 4 car sets for the LIRR with 2 different paint schemes. One is old LIRR and one is MTA LIRR.
I was at the dealer this afternoon. He had broken up a set, and sold the individual pieces. All that was left was the searchlight car with a $40.00 price on it. He had the decal which should be on the set box. We studied the picture with a magnifying glass, and the road number would appear to be 367 0. Except for the missing digit, it seems to be the same number that RIPTA reported. I sure am sorry that I missed that car, especially since I got the add-on car. It never occured to me that they would have different numbers. Incidently, the diesel picture looked rather good too even though they never had one of them.
The dealer never mentioned the K-Line catalog, so what you said is all news to me.
Was at my local dealer recently. He said that very few pre-ordered the MOW car, but now everyone wants one. He bought a few extra, but they are long gone now.
Still waiting to order my World's Fair add on set.
My dealer's order was cut from 18 to 6 by MTH. He had the 18 sold out of the catalog and now has a few disappointed customers.
I guess that I had better consider myself lucky in that I got one of the add-on rider cars!
I'd say you were very lucky. BTW there's one of the original rider cars on E-bay today. Bidding is over $70.00
I just missed an incident happening. Around 9:45 PM this evening, a fight involving some kids who perform inside the train with their boombox and some adults broke out on a S/B Q train as it was approaching Atlantic Ave. No one was arrested, details are sketchy at this point.
These kids do a lot of performing inside the train, it's also very dangerous what they do. But why would a customer get p**sed over it and start a fight?
I've seen those kids perform. They're not half-bad. However, what they are doing is very illegal on several counts (radio playing, calisthenics in the aisles, and so on). Moreover, while trying to collect from the passengers, they get nasty and make some very biased statements ("oh, must be Jewish") when someone refuses to pony up.
David
I have also seen these kids many times. They are indead very rude and nasty. They play the boombox very loud. When people see them come onto the car they move. Those who are close to the boombox have put a finger in thier ear because it is so loud. They look the type that would start a fight or call you a racist I you asked them to turn the music down.
The two older vagrants drag thier little brothers(11-12 years old) and do some crazy flips and rolls on the floor. In the course of the flips, I have seen them kick one passenger in the side of the head(accidentally of course), have hit thier feet into the ceiling and took a nasty fall, bank there head into one of the poles in the middle of the car.
Thier little performance is a lawsuit waiting to happan. It is more anoying then entertaining. It always amazes me how they don't get arrested or at least the boombox cofiscated and the police taking them home to thier parents. I have seen them out as late as 11 PM on a school night. What I want to know is where are these kids parents? Why are they not at home, in bed on school nights?
Is it no wonder these kids don't do well in school.
The reason they don't get arrested is simple... no C/R or T/O (which really isn't the T/O's responsibility anyway) reports themThis is bad, because in the case you describe where the passenger got hit in the head, if that person decided to sue, the C/R would get nailed for not doing his job.
I'd love to smash that boombox to bits with my walking stick.
Tell 'em if they don't like it to call the cops.
Elias
Captain Kirk and Spock were persented with a similar situation when riding a bus in 80’s San Francisco in Star Trek IV and Spock offered an interesting solution to the problem. :)
Remember the name of the song playing on the punk's boombox before Spock knocked him out?
Here it is:
"I HATE YOU"
Lyrics by Kirk R. Thatcher
Music by Mark Mangini
(to be sung Allegro con Temptible)
Just what is the future?
The things we've done and said.
Let's just push the button.
We'd be better off dead!
And I hate you!
and I berate you !
and I can't wait to get to you...
The sins of all the fathers,
being dumped on us - the sons
The only choice we're given is:
How many megatons?
So I eschew you!
And I say "SCREW YOU"!
And I hope you're blue too!
We're all bloody worthless,
Just greedy human scum,
The numbers all add up
to a negative sum...
And I hate you!
And I hate you!
And I hate you...too!
(Repeat in angry scream 'til hoarse -- or blood sprays from throat. Whichever comes first...)
[ beating by conductor with shoe paddle optional ]
I wonder if that song was written for the movie?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the soundtrack.
Apparently that was a real song. There is however the "No Kill I: Star Trek Punk Rock Band" who did NOT perform on either a bus or a train, but penned these lyrics:
Travellin’ through time
One thing on my mind
Couldn’t kill my labido
With a photon torpedo
and this one, about the poor hapless red-shirted crewmen who you knew were doomed when they got asked along on the away team:
Walk the plank, put your heaad on the block
Too bad you wouldn’t doff your jock
Jilted Gene and pissed off Spock
An open mouth, gagged with a sock.
Got a tunic colored red
See your death playing in my head
See you die on my tv screen
All because you jilted Gene
… i am amused by the existence of a Star Trek Punk band.
Probably sung by all the no-names whoever went on away missions from the original series.
Heh. Most of them rematerialized at Jay St. :)
Of course. They had to beam down somewhere. Scotty probably found somewhere where there was intellgant life. Then again maybe his sensors weren't working properly that day.
At least he sent the tribbles to Murphy. :)
CI yard is so big, it'll be a while before someone notices the overcrowding there.
Heh. As long as they're wearing a vest. (watch on a chain optional)
I've told them straight to their faces whn they pass the hat my way that they aint getting sh!t from me and that they better move on.
These guys should stick to the upper west side lines, where those guilty wide liberals love opening their wallets.
AHHH! Must be from brooklyn tech. I know majority brookly tech kid rides the Q train. These kids aint bad, I guess it must be the rider that who start the fight must been having bad day. Just this morning, I was at the Northbound D heading to The Bronx, I heard this guy cursing the crap out of homeless guy who standing on the train quietly. I felt sorry for that guy because he doesn't look like the type bother people, I gotta tell you New Yorker have bad temper in serval occasion.
Love that statement. Been to Tech? We don't have kids like those. They DO live at Church Avenue Station which is where they get off usually.
The kids have been caught a few times. They were also on a COPS type show doing their routine and being questioned by police. A while later when they did their show, they bragged about being on TV.
I'd think the customer was p**sed because the kids rolled into him.
Why don't the cops cofiscate the boom box. That will put the end to this madness. The boom box playing is clearly a violation.
I Have seen these kids many times. They are not nice kids. They are more like beggers. They get mad if you don't give them something making rude and obnoxious and some may say racist remarks. I have heard them saw "don't be a Jew" and "look at the whities run"
They are a lawsuit waiting to happan. They roll into people all the time. There is just no room on the car for their antics. One day they will hurt themselves bad or hurt somene else bad.
Sorry If I am rambling. But these kids are dangerous. What make me more angry is WHERE ARE THERE PARENTS? The yonger guys in the group are 12 at best. The older guys are maybe 17. It appears that the older guys force the younger guys to perform. They are often out way past there bed time. They could not possibly do well in school with little sleep. I have seen them out past 11PM on school nights on a few occasions.
More to the point, where are the COPS? Oh yeah, "consolidation" and "efficiency." Ah well ... cuts down on expenses, and that's a good thing I suppose.
Quite simple the kids perform in the car and end thier performance befor the next station. If they see a cop they don't perform.
If each car had CCTV, this issue would be solve almost as soon as it started. Why? The police would have the whole incident on video including sound. It baffle me why the new rail cars do not have cctv installed or at least the wiring for CCTV.
I could definitely see one of their comments being cause for the altercation. I've seen it happen, but the person responding to the comment is usually stopped by another passenger.
Usually the kids' act is over quickly and they're gone before police arrive. And if the kids are spotted on a platform, unless someone from the train points them out, they're just kids going home who didn't know it was so late. Otherwise unless they forgot to turn their boombox off, the police can't do anything except tell them to go home.
The few times I've seen them they usually do their act in a train car that is not too crowded. I'd like to think if anything does happen, they'll be the first ones out of the car at the next station. Heaven help anyone who is in their way.
Also if anything happens, it would not be PC to wonder out loud where are their parents or why aren't they at home. Some years back there was something in the news about kids who were shot for their jackets. When someone wondered out loud about why these kids weren't home at such an hour they were slammed in the media for being trying to blame the kids for being shot.
It looks to me that nothing is going to be done about something until something happens.
Also if anything happens, it would not be PC to wonder out loud where are their parents or why aren't they at home
The word is "parent," singular.
Of course, I forgot. How could I have forgotten THAT?
The parent is GLAD that they are out of the house and not making their lives miserable.
Which is why the youth is out all hours.
One begs to ask why isn't the train crew alerting the police about these vagrants performing on the train. The police could be made aware of the situation and put an end to it in the future. So much for trian crews and token booth clerks being the eye's and ears of the train system. If the trian crews and tooken booth clerks were indead the eyes and ears they would be some dialog between the police and the MTA staff.
These kids are on the Q all the time. They are a major pain in the butt. Like I mentioned in an earlier post. I am concerned about thier well being. Who knows what germs are lurking on the floor.
>>> Like I mentioned in an earlier post. I am concerned about thier well being. <<<
Then why don't you drop the dime on them? :-)
These days it requires a quarter.
That would just encourage them to pursue a quick buck instead of the work that is required to gain skills to be a successful member of society.
These kids are headed for vagrant city.
If you listen to a TA police scanner, you'll hear calls for police at such-and-such a station to wait for a train arriving at the station in about 5 minutes. Car number blah-blah-blah-blah. Kids as called in by the train crew. By the time the train gets there, the kids are gone. The kids may not have enough sense to be in bed at night. But they are not going to stay on a train long enough to be caught at the next stop.
If you want to see dialog between clerks and police, try standing around where swipers are busy selling swipes at the turnstiles. As soon as they see the clerk pick up the phone, the swipers know police will arrive there in at least 5 minutes. Enough time to make at least one more sale and ensure them at least 5 minutes work at their nest location. Police come, they don't see no one selling swipes.
There is NOTHING to brag about when your face appears on national TV, as a thug, lowlife, or just an a**hole.
It all depends on how you explain it to people. You say that you were on TV. Just don't say you were arrested by Police who had a camera crew tagging along filming for a show showing crime and other things in the subway.
Agreed, but these kids think other.
Peace,
ANDEE
Agreed, but these kids think otherwise.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last night, I actually had a small talk with the "performers" about the Saturday night incident at Atlantic Ave, guess what the older brother told me (they were selling candy last night, no presence of their boombox), he or she said that the conductor was arguing with them (the C/R asked them leave the train) and a scuffle broke out.
These punks have to be stopped before something real serious happens. They probably have foster parents from a depressed background and they advocate this type of violence. It is already a felony to assault certain MTA employees, now the older kid brags about this garbage? I was not in the train, let alone the car when the incident took place, and God knows what will happen next. I used to respect their performance, becuase I though it was a way to earn money without being involved in the drug business, but when they mess around with any C/R or T/O (whether or not I know them on the Q line, makes no difference.), I take this matter to a new level. And last night, they really treat some customers like dirt if they won't buy the candy they were selling. Battery sellers on the Lex Ave and 8th Ave IND lines have more respect for people.
The kids are now scum in the subways!!
Anytime I encounter a group of kids selling candy for their school and don't say what school they go to, I don't buy their candy. Same thing with those who are collecting money for homeless but wave cans around without the name of their organization on it or don't have phamlets.
Too many people are collecting for "charity" abd the charity is themselves. A few well places propd and people will give them the benefit of the doubt and their money.
Funny how these same kids I see all them time need money for $100 scholl uniforms, and they are on their 200th box of candy. Wholesale, a box of M&M's will cost you from $16 to $18, depending on location. With 48 bags inside a box, that's a $30 profit (at $1 a pop), so only about 3 to 4 boxes are needed to get the school uniforms.
As I said, it's $30 profit for a box, NOT $30 extra for what they "claim" to need, which is fraud. On the flip side of the coin, at least they are not selling drugs on the street.
>>> On the flip side of the coin, at least they are not selling drugs on the street. <<<
Are you sure of theat? Ever ask one of them to slip you a dime bag? :-)
Tom
>>> But why would a customer get p**sed over it and start a fight? <<<
Heh, you have people on this board who get upset over other people talking on a telephone because it interferes with their quiet peaceful ride. This would be far worse for them.
Tom
What they are doing is illegal, first of all, so they shouldn't even be doing this! Given your description, I may have seen them no a performance while riding an L train from Broadway to Manhattan. They weren't bad, considering their skills, but they should concentrate such abilities in more worthwhile careers.
Apparently you have some youth who aren't willing to do so. Last time I was on the F - haven't seen him lately - there was a black kid who played the violin. He was very good and could have surely gotten somewhere if he had gone to school to enhance his abilities, but apparently he saw it easier to just play on the subway and try to make some cash there.
The Violin guy is indead going to school for music. I have seen him a few times and have talked to him. There are many aspiring musicians performing on the subway practicing thier craft.
They kids doing thier gymastics/hip hop show are vagrants. The older brothers could be accused of endangering the welfare of theire little brothers forcing/allowing them to perform dangerous flips and rolls in tight subway cars. One of them is going to break thier neck one day and sue to city claiming it is the MTA's fault for allowing them to do this especially since the cops stoped them a few times.
To make matter's worse, they are performing late on school nights further doomng themselves to a life of poverty. Where are these kids parents?
The Violin guy is indead going to school for music. I have seen him a few times and have talked to him. There are many aspiring musicians performing on the subway practicing thier craft.
They kids doing thier gymastics/hip hop show are vagrants. The older brothers could be accused of endangering the welfare of theire little brothers forcing/allowing them to perform dangerous flips and rolls in tight subway cars. One of them is going to break thier neck one day and sue to city claiming it is the MTA's fault for allowing them to do this especially since the cops stoped them a few times.
There's a difference between musicians or other performers on platforms and those on trains. It's much more difficult for people to avoid these performers in the tight confines of a train.
Agreed.
Some of the train performers scare/embarass people into giving them money.
What? I have no youths!
I meant "you" in general. Let me rephrase "There are some youtes, yadda yadda..."
Oh ok. Thanks for clearing it up.
I think they do it because it pays better than actually working. Not to mention it's "tax-free".
All I want to hear when I board a train are the mechanical sounds of the train itself. Performers who get into it as a train enters a tunnel especially raise my ire. If I'm riding with someone I try to make a point of engaging in conversation with my companion in complete disregard of the "artist". And I'm balky enough to hope they hear my, to them, disrespect. Tough! Am I getting into THEIR face and beligerantly expounding upon the advantages of transit oriented culture vs. highway orientrd culture? No. I mind my own business. I'm always surprised some of these guys don't get shot. Maybe I'm cranky; but don't force yourself into my space and make it hard for me to ignore you. I don't need to hear your entertainment.
I don't need to hear some knuckleheads playing some kind of flute in Grand Central either. I love the echo-y sounds of the place; why does it need "enhancement"? Crowd noises are a type of music, anyway.
Agreed. It's a pity the MTA doesn't do more enforcement on the issue.
Enforcement is difficult and expensive.
You'd need plain clothes detectives to catch them at it.
Elias
A sweep every no and then would do the trick. These kids in particular send the wrong message to would be criminals and vandals. Thier act totaly bullies the riders on the train t giving them money and quite frankly it is not all that entertaining. They often fight among each other as to who is going to perform. I have saw them at least 10-15 times on the Q.
I know some NYPD officers who have been told 'unofficially' and 'off the record' NOT to challenge beggars, musicians, performers and religious zealots that behave in a disruptive manner on transit property- be it trains, platforms, corridors or stairways. At least this is the case if the disruptive party is a minority and the officer is not a member of the same minority group.
Seems that there were a number of incidents in which a Caucasian law enforcement officer confronted a minority who was engaged in the activities as noted above. Said officers have been loudly accused of- get ready- racism. This makes the NYPD look very bad.
I myself witnessed one such occurrence involving an aggressive panhandler and two Caucasian officers on the 4 train. Minority passengers turned on the OFFICERS, claiming they were impeding this panhandler's freedom of speech, passage, right to make a living, etc. Flustered and frustrated, the officers left the train without the panhandler, who continued to ply his trade. The remainder of the ride till I got off was a car-wide forum on racial oppression and how 'the man' loves to persecute poor Afro-Americans.
Conversely, there is tacit approval for an officer the same race as the offending parties to 'reason with them man-to-man on their level'-whatever THAT means.
So if you see disruptive behavior in full view of the police on the subway, or even in the street (like those Israeli Fundamentalists that block sidewalks and loudly blather in areas popular with tourists), that may be why.
Unfortunately this is the kind of world we have to deal with. As a C/R I used to ask such persons to leave, instead of calling the police like I should. One day, I had the band of 3 hispanic men playing guitars, and I did the usual, explained to them what they were doing was illegal and asked them to leave the train. After that every hispanic person who got off teh train called me a "Evil White Man". Didn't want to be bothered with the people after that, and I can see how the Police would not wnat to bother with such relations and try to avoid it.
Conversely, there is tacit approval for an officer the same race as the offending parties to 'reason with them man-to-man on their level'-whatever THAT means.
Apparently the NYPD just wants to save face. Even if an Afro-american officer was to confront a Afro-american panhandler, there's still some claim of discrimination.
>>>> Even if an Afro-american officer was to confront a Afro-american panhandler, there's still some claim of discrimination. <<<
Heh, yeah, he would be called an OREO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know these kids. I hope the riders beat the %$#@& out of them.
"But why would a customer get p**sed over it and start a fight?"
I can think of several reasons. It's illegal. It's annoying to people who simply want to relax. Some people may not like loud music or that type of music. Some people are incidently touched by the 'performers'. Some may feel that they are being extorted.
Friday evening there was a truly pathetic person on the 'D' train about 5:20 PM. Wis cloths were filthy and torn. He was filthy and he was crawling on his knees,through the car, begging for money. As he waved his cup in the face of tired riders, he'd say "I'm not a bad person."
One passenger walked past him but his young daughter became frightened and began to cry. She refused to pass this guy on his knees. What some may excuse as harmless may be intimidating to others. Intimidating to the point, perhaps, where they feel 'compelled' to give when they may either not wish to or can't afford to.
If I was the one who got ticked off, I would report this matter to the conductor, and let them radio it to Command Center, who in turn will call police, Starting a fight for some lowly punk is not worth it. As for the bum, (he was unshaven, long beard, draggy, and filthy, sometime he would be on the #4 and #5 in Manhattan) he dosen't belong on the trains, much like this fraud which I saw one day.
The first time I saw him panhandling, was back in 1997, claims he suffered a "stroke", and his left side is impaired. But he was waiting for his disability "fair hearing" and a check later on, but needed money for now. That was back in 1997, one of his co-workers busted him on the train, telling him to get off drugs. Fast foward to 2002 (last year), and I saw this same con-man on the Q over the bridge with the same bullshit story. And there were new suckers that gave money to this d***head.
Reminds me of the person standing by the booth. Claims they only need about 50 cents more to buy a token. An hour and a sandwich later, they still do.
I always offer a free swipe of my 7 day unlimited to those who hang around the booth or turnstyle asking for money because the're 50 cents or 75 cents short of a full fare and guess what? they turn it down. What a shock! Works every time. As for those annoying performers, I usually get up and switch cars(except the locked ones) right in the middle of their show, making sure I walk right through them during their act, like a confused tourist.It pisses them off so I figure we're even. The doo-wop guys bug me too, maybe 'cause I see them all the time-how many times do you want to hear "In the Still of the night". Yeah sometimes the train is just too much, which begs the question- where's Charles Bronson (Paul Kersey) when you need him?
I always offer a free swipe of my 7 day unlimited to those who hang around the booth or turnstyle asking for money because the're 50 cents or 75 cents short of a full fare and guess what? they turn it down. What a shock! Works every time. As for those annoying performers, I usually get up and switch cars(except the locked ones) right in the middle of their show, making sure I walk right through them during their act, like a confused tourist.It pisses them off so I figure we're even. The doo-wop guys bug me too, maybe 'cause I see them all the time-how many times do you want to hear "In the Still of the night". Yeah sometimes the train is just too much, which begs the question- where's Charles Bronson (Paul Kersey) when you need him?
seen da construction of the DeKalb Avenue Station? Especially, when you look at the s/b platforms, the station has made vast improvements in lighting and structure of the station overall.
Really? Have they finished with putting up the tiling for the walls between the express tracks?
Southbound N/R (inner) trackside wall has made significant progress.
They have left the mosaic frieze up and have repaired it where needed, this will be repointed, regrouted and reglazed. Below it will be placed an appropriate English bond of new white tile, as was done at 36th Street.
wayne
Southbound N/R (inner) trackside wall has made significant progress.
Yeah, I noticed that those holes on wall are now gone.
The newly extended curtain wall is terrible for railfans! Can't get a good view of passing W's anymore.
Otherwise it's a nice job.
This might be easy for some of you.
A train arrives at Rahway on the s/b local (Track 6) track and is an NEC heading south. 5 minutes later (as on the Sunday schedule), the NJCL follows on the same track but needs to switch to the first or second switch to curve onto the Coast line.
1) Does the engineer use a remote control to switch the track?
2) How does he know which way the switch is set?
3) Which switches are controlled by tower operators? (Train traffic controllers) and where are their headquarters located?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
First, there is no track 6 at Rahway. The tracks are designated east to west A,1,2,3,4,5,B so the train would be on track B.
1) Does the engineer use a remote control to switch the track?
No, the junction at Rahway is known as UNION interlocking. UNION is special in that the interlocking is controled on site by a manned interlocking tower. Built in 1912 UNION tower contains an all electric US&S model F-13 interlocking machine. Operator UNION sees a train enter his approach circut and when either looks it up in his timetable or consults a live feed from the CTEC dispatching center. If there is any confusion Operator UNION can contact the train directly or vice versa. Trains entering the NEC from NJT frequently have to contact Operator UNION to obtain their lineup. Operator manipulates levers on the F-13 machine and then clears the relivent home signal.
2) How does he know which way the switch is set?
Operator UNION just looks at his lighted model board or at the indications on the front of the interlocking machine. The engineer will see either an APPROACH MEDIUM for a straight route or MEDIUM CLEAR for a diverging route on the 2R home signal.
3) Which switches are controlled by tower operators? (Train traffic controllers) and where are their headquarters located?
Most of the NEC is controled by the CTEC dispatching center located in 30th St Station. Because of UNION interlocking's complexity, it is controled as I said locally by UNION tower. All switches and signals between Colonia and Rahway are controled by operator UNION.
You are in luck, I posted an illustrated histroy and description of UNION at www.signalbox.org along with many other towers on the NEC. You can view the info at http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/union.htm Make sure you click the link to the interlocking diagram.
What is the normal speed designation for tracks 1-5? (There are 7 tracks at Rahway?)
Also, what is the history of the extraneous switch that comes on Track B (on the right side from the run-down white, concrete building) after Rahway before shifting to track 4? Sometimes, there would be one freight car (various sorts) at a time, and sometimes it would be pulled out on a short segment of branch-covered track below the switch.
Don't know much about the history part, but the name of that switch was Virginia Barrel.
One of my Forgotten Fans sent me some photos, shot in August 2002, of an anceint SIRT car, serioulsy damaged but still recognizable, in the Travis yard near The Con Edison Plant, between Victory Blvd. And Meredith Ave.
Can anyone tell me anything about this car?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It belongs to TMNY in Kingston, though for whatever reason they could not afford to move it to kingston. Even if they hd the cash, it would ahve to be trucked out, as the (even if there were a RR operating it) the travis branch has a nasty bridge misalignment/heat kink up toward arlington yard...
Photos of 353 are ehre:
http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Other/SIRTCar/Damned.php
Kevin, From a recent thread we learned that there were three cars there. Shoreline & Seashore took the other two. A group(s) on SI twice said they wanted to preserve the remaining car. Kingston said THAT was the main reason it has stayed there so long.
Questions:
1) Where can I obtain information about SEAL? (maps, history, etc.)
2) What locomotive is the one in the photo?
3) What is the mystery locomotive positioned third in the photo? (Yellow body, red stripe, gray top)
Led by Conrail No. 6777, the SEAL (Selkirk-Allentown) train has exited Fort Montgomery Tunnel and crosses Popolopen Brook on the Riverline in October, 1993.
Photo by Gordon Smith.
1) Where can I obtain information about SEAL? (maps, history, etc.)
What history? Its just a typical merchandise freight train running between Selkirk NY Yard (near Albany) and Allentown PA Yard. It would run down the River Line, curve onto the Passiac and Harsimus Cove Line at HACK then onto the Lehigh Line at CP-VALLEY. From there it runs to Allentown.
2) What locomotive is the one in the photo?
Google "Conrail Locomotive Roster", its not hard.
3) What is the mystery locomotive positioned third in the photo? (Yellow body, red stripe, gray top)
Random Union Pacific loco paying off horsepower hours.
The lead locomotive is an SD50.
-Stef
The 3rd loco in line is a Reading & Northern.
I thought Reading & Northern used the old Reading colors which were yellow and green.
That sure looks like a Union Pacific diesel to me.
Both have similar colors, the UP seem to have a darker yellow.
At first I thought it was D-L, but they are white & light gray.
Is the Howard Beach station overhaul over? If no how is it going?
It's a work in progress. The AirTrain terminal is approaching completion; MTA's $75 million overhaul started later.
When complete, there should be a completely redone station building, full ADA compliance in both directions and for both AirTrain and subway services.
When is it going to be completed in spite of last year's accident?
That's not the same question. Construction of the AirTrain station has very little to do with the accident, and construction of the subway station has nothing to do with it.
The subway station's renovation should be finished by the end of this year or sometime next year - not sure - but the PA says AirTrain will open for business by the end of 2003.
It is going well. Lots of exposed steel superstructure. I can see where the new elevators will be. The old station was just horrible, so this will be a 1000% improvement.
---Brian
Speak for yourself. Most of us here prefer the old station, smaller and less of an eyesore. That thing is just plain ugly.
And as many times as a Far Rock train says "surprise! five minutes early!" or "surprise! supplement, so I'm here early!" its gonna be a bitch to run up the taller escalators, get through the turnstiles and down again.
Guess what this is a photo of. For extra credit, guess where this photo was taken. Day of capture: 3/15/03. Time of capture: 11:46pm. Good luck.
Take Pride,
Brian
I'd say Flushing Avenue or 121 Street on the J line.
Nope. Try again.
It looks like concrete ties. It is a commuter railroad?
Its a photo of a speeding AEM-7 or ALP-44 on the NEC. In fact, I'll go further and say its a rebuilt AEM-7AC and say that it is the Edison station.
Want to know how I know? Well the signals are an NEC give away. The light blurs indicate a center headlight and two lit numberboards, which the AEM/ALP-44's have. It is on the express track late at night and the boards are bright telling me its an Amtrak. The local tracks are concrete which means NJT portion of the NEC. The station is clearly not Trenton, too old to be Hamelton, 4 tracks eliminate Rahway or Linden, the position of the stationhouse and signal bridge eliminate Princeton Jct, the station is not on a curve so its not Elizabeth or metropark, Metutchen is in the middle of an interlocking so the signals are wrong for that one and the lit industrial background in relation to the station building eliminates Nu Brunzwick. This leaves Edison and N. Elizabeth. The station at N Elizabeth is on the southbound side of the platform and if you look south from N Elizabeth there is no signal bridge so I'm going with Edison.
HOLY SH!T! You are good! And you are correct! I'm thoroughly amazed and impressed. You get 15 points. Let's see how you do in Round 2, whenever I do Round 2...
Take Pride,
Brian
It helps when I have a photo from almost the same location.
That reminds me. Why are there five signal thingys on the singal bridge thing when there are only four tracks?
There are 6. Tracks 2 and 3 are Rule 261 bi-directional. In the PRR signaling system, on signal bridges YOUR signal was the one that was closest to your right above the track. This is why only one pair of signals overlaps back to front.
Let's see how you do in Round 2, whenever I do Round 2...
Give us more!
Doesn't that look like one of the Flushing line stations?
No. There is no 3rd rail, there are concrete ties, there are four tracks, there are overhead signals...
I'm sorry for steering off topic but has overhead signals ever existed in the NYC Subway system. And no, I'm not talking LIRR or Metro North.
I passed through your home station twice...on Friday going sb to New Brunswick and on Saturday going nb from Edison. I thought of you as I went through Metuchen, heh heh. I had Arrow cars both ways. But from my window I saw trains with consists of Comet V's mixed in with older Comet cars. I thought the Comet V's only ran in solid matchups of their own kind.
Take Pride,
Brian
What model were the older Comets that were attached to the Comet V? I'm pretty sure only the Comet III, and IV, since those are the only two that can hook together on the same trainset. Comet II unrefurbisheds' and Comet 2B's and Comet I's are compatible of traveling together also. I thought at first also that Comet V's needed to run with its own kind. I think all Comets are designed to "interbreed" except with the older sets. Actually, this topic has been mentioned before on Railroad.net in the NJT Forum. He remarked that Comet V's mixed with the older cars was "not a pretty sight".
If you want to know where I live, it is in the brick-apartments hidden among a thick wad of trees from the NEC (now only branches, but thick with leaves all other times) You can only see the apartments in the winter because of the loss of leaves. Past these woods is a steep hill that goes down about 50 or more ft. and that will put you on the ground level of my apartment complex. (I live in the yellow building behind all of the orange ones)
NJT trains usually speed past this area, shortly after the tennis courts at Oakland Park, right after you cross the very small concrete bridge over Grove Av. is what my bus takes to go to school every morning. It is sometimes common that I see the 2:51p train to New York when my bus rounds the corner onto Oakland Av., making itself parallel for a short time with the NEC as if it were going n/b. This train has been 100% Comet consist so far, but a string of Comet IV's and refurbished Comet II's are expected.
Now you know how I hear the trains "speeding" on the NEC at home. It's enjoying to hear the noise of the running wheels, and you get a perfect view if you're at Roosevelt Park in the lake area. But this sound carries as far as Grove 2 of Roosevelt Park, which is on the other side of the apartment complex, across a road, and following a 0.5 mile winding road to another wooded area obscured off of Rt. 1.
I miss the railfanning days at Metuchen. Hopefully this summer will be as good, if not better than last summer.
just rode it. a little weird seeing an R40M signed for the W, but I guess it had to happen sooner or later.
I captured a photo of one last weekend:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/subsun/PDRM2412.html
Take Pride,
Brian
Sweet picture. It was bound to happen anyway with all of the rolling stock being shifted due to the R143's at ENY. I wonder how this will all repeat itself once the R160's start coming in!?
I wouldn't sweat it ... the R160 order will be cancelled or "postponed" once the MTA arrives at work on Monday. See http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=460359 for some details ... Division of the Budget has told MTA to "shut it down" ... wonder if we'll see derricks off the coast of the Carolinas and Delaware to fecth some redbirds? :-\
I wouldn't read too much into that article.
I'm privy to several more details than the paper printed, there's a lot of "staties" here in town, five of which work in the Division of the Budget. Lemme put it to you this way (since I don't want to violate any confidences, but while Paturkey was assuring the voters that everything was hokey-dokey, I was posting here what was to be today) ... that $12 Billion "shortfall" is actually more like $30 ... but I'll let that sit until it's announced this summer since there's STILL folks that think manna will fall from Tax and Finance (we'll forget that most people have already filed) and the receipts so far are far lower than ANYONE expected ...
State employees are sheeting peekles though ... and amusingly, those "rainy day banks" that have tided NYS through many a self-inflicted wound have already said "NO WAY" to any more borrowing. That little ditty should be news in about two weeks once the fiscal year ends and the books need to be closed out ... things are STILL a whole lot worse than they're fessing up to in the state house ... :(
And that "federal money" that balanced us out to the numbers we're hearing STILL ain't coming ...
"and amusingly, those "rainy day banks" that have tided NYS through many a self-inflicted wound have already said "NO WAY" to any more borrowing."
The state does not borrow from banks other then for short term cash flow. The state borrows money by issuing BONDS to the public. The rate on the bonds is directly related to the standard and Poors and Moody's bond ratings (AAA, AA A, A- BBBB etc.) and are backed by the tax revenue that state collects(MTA bonds are backed by toll and Fare revenue). NYS could theroretically issue more Bond to it's heart's content. The problem is that as it's debt to revenue ration worsens the bond agencies lower there credit rating indicating higher risk to default on loans causing the state to pay more money. There have been municipalities who have in the past defaulted on Bonds
NYC on the other hand can not borrow to cover revenue shortfalls under laws that were passed during the 1970's finacial crisis. This is why Bloomberg must ballance his budget by cutting services or raise taxes when revenues do not meet expenses. If the city does not balance it's books it is in dager of the state fiancial control board taking over. It is this board who imposed large across the board cuts during the 1970's. Bloomberg has done a commendable job keeping control in the hands of our local elected officials.
The state is in that "short term" situation right now to end the fiscal year - this cannot be bonded. The banks are saying "no." Whoops. :)
The bonds won't go to hell until after there IS a budget - however Moody's is about to ditch that "AA" rating ...
Pataki has made Cuomo look like a genious. Cuomo was a moron.
As for the state shutdown. It is not a matter of banks cutting off the water as a matter of agencies have no money alloted to them due to the state not allocating money for operating costs.
As far as bond offerings. The state could issue bonds tommorrow if they wanted to. Whether or not they would get face value based on cupon interest is another story. NYC latest bond offering went over well with investors.
Concidering the current war situation. State bonds will sell well also. remember that they are tripple tax free. this is very benificial if you are in the highest tax bracket
Just to add ... back when interest rates were near 10%, it was worthwhile for banks to take the risk of loaning NYS money. At rates near 1%, it isn't worth the paperwork to them. Folks tend to forget that financing bankrupt states CAN be worthwhile if the rates are high enough and the term is long enough. Not the case now ... and borrowing long term for short term debt is NOT what banks want to do ...
Finally, to bring this BACK sort of on-topic, the money just ain't THERE to buy new subway cars ... if the contract proceeds, look for MASSIVE shuffling of money from other things. Word I hear though is that money for transit is OFF the table, and if cars are to be purchased to replace the older fleet, then it will have to be removed from operations and WILL require another fare hike bigger than THIS one ... that's what I'm told. I'm also told that the Turbo train project has already been stopped and NYS won't be able to pay Amtrak either.
"Finally, to bring this BACK sort of on-topic, the money just ain't THERE to buy new subway cars "
There is plenty of money for subway cars. The money to finace capitol improvements such as subway cars is raised by issuing bonds. With interest rates at their current lowest level in 40 years this is the perfect time. In addition the R-160 order will allow the MTA to institute cost savings on Maintance and to impliment more OPTO service that the older car classes don't allow. The new cars a re a worth while investment.
Count on seeing the new rolling stock. The MTA's problem is excessivily high labor costs. The new cars will help them reduce some of these costs.
Nothing unexpected about it on weekends, when the W runs a few trains of what would otherwise be assigned to the N (R-40M, R-40, and formerly R-32).
If you saw it on a weekday, then I'd be surprised.
Are R40M's officially assigned to the W, now? This is the third time I've heard of this happening.
I was on one yesterday, from Queensboro Plaza, around 230 or so,
I did a double take when I got off at 14th St, cause I didn't notice the slant, when it pulled into the station at QBP, and thats what made me to the double take, cause for years we always had the slants on the N, & B trains to Astoria.
I got a pic of 4507 on the W at QBP yesterday around 4pm. I'll have that photo to share with you all tomorrow.
#4507 W West End Local
Once again: on weekends, and on weekends only, the W runs a few trains of cars that would normally be assigned to the N. I don't know why, but it's been happening every weekend since 9/8/02. Even R-32's, though not anymore.
I actually did see slants on the W during the first week after 9/08/02. But not since then, and it's a shame, really. The N just can't get any breaks not even with the type of subway cars assigned to it, can it?
Since the W is all local via tunnel on weekends (vs. express via bridge M-F) and runs on an 8 minute Saturday and Sunday midday headway, the line needs more trainsets on weekends than on a weekday.
That's neat.
Good point. But with the reduced headways on the Q on weekends, aren't there enough R-68's to fill in the gap on the W? Or are R-68's (as opposed to R-68A's) considered foreign enough entities on the W that R-40's might as well be used instead? (Even on weekdays, occasional R-68's slip through the cracks.)
And IINM the W runs on 10-minute headways on Sundays.
I've worked Sunday overtime on the W several times this pick. Every time I've worked there a supplement schedule was in effect due to GO's in various places: either Sea Beach or West End line down in one direction for a GO, or one way over the Manny B, or no #7 service to Manhattan. They were on 8 minute mid-day headways. I checked the supplement schedule to confirm this every time I was working the line. I am sure the circle Q on weekends runs on a faily similar midday headway no mattter if it's daily or Saturday or Sunday so the R68's are usually stay on the Q circle. One Sunday night, I laid up a W at City Hall yard. The yard was previously empty, rising to speculation on my part that all City Hall yard weekend put-ins go to the W, yet some or perhaps all of them go to the N weekdays. That could be why the Astoria weekend dispatcher tries to lay up 60'cars there on Sunday nights so they could go back to the N on Monday morning.
". I am sure the circle Q on weekends runs on a faily similar midday headway no mattter if it's daily or Saturday or Sunday so the R68's are usually stay on the Q circle...."
Saw R40M as a put in on the Q line yesterday afternoon. Two of the car #'s were 4476 and 4477. Might have been used to replace another R68 train taken out of service at BB.
Yes, I saw that train also. The Q also had at least one R68A running as well. The southern division was kind of mixed up due to the W line GO: main line via Sea Beach in both directions and a shuttle service from Stillwell to Ninth Ave. That shuttle, from what I could gather, had 4 trains: one R40M and three R68A's. The W main line mostly had R68A's along with at least one R40 Slant and 2 R40M's. I observed several R68's on the W, a bit unusual. At Stillwell, the shuttle used 8 track and the main line used 7 track. Because of this, during the day every other W train dropped out at Kings Hwy N till around 7 PM when headways went from 8 to 12 minutes when about 7 trains got laid up from there and then all W trains went to/from Stillwell. Finally, I felt very sorry for one motorman on the W: after doing his 2 round trips, this guy had to take a layup from Astoria to City Hall yard and clear (work day completed). He had an R40M operating motor was 4489 (I think). Leaving 14th St. the train went BIE and didn't recharge. He had a blow of air coming underneath the operating car. The train came to a stop with 2 cars out of the station. An R behind it was able to key a door into 14th St. and discharge and a W held at 23rd St. After that, the R/W ran around those trains on the express track from 34th St. to Prince St. A TSS showed up to help the t/o. They isolated the first 2 cars (pulling or opening the angle cocks) and cutting out the brakes in those 2 cars. This allowed one of them to operate from the third car and the other flag from the front. They got the train into City Hall yard awaitng car equipment and getting it off the main line, but eventually it had to go to CIYD.
Yikes, reminiscent of the circumstances that led to the 1970 Roosevelt Av GG crash (cutting out the lead 2 cars), at least this time there were no problems.
Yes it is. However, there's a reference near the bottom of the post which makes a crucial difference. A TSS was sent to the scene. This was one of the positive outcomes of the tragic Roosevelt Avenue accident: a supervisor must always be on board a train for other than head car operation on the main line. This was not the case in 1970, when the crew and RCI were "on their own." There were also very few TSS's (M/I's) in 1970; this accident resulted in their number being increased dramatically.
The four weekday morning put-ins from City Hall Yard are indeed all for the N line (plus one for the R). On Sat and Sun, the four put-ins are for the W.
Now I know why, as I waited Saturday AM for my riders to Branford
at Queens Plaza North, I observed the frequent W service. I was
also early, so had some minutes to discern. Around 0700 on
Saturday, 15 March, observed a set of R-40s; R-40Ms and a trio of
R-68s. >GG<
8-) Sparky
While today at DeKalb Ave to check on the station rehab, the R-40M (W) came in with the odd couple (#4460 R40M-#4665 R42) in mid consist. So now you guys know where it's running.
Bill "Newkirk"
All the tracks and ties in the entire western portion (the non-electrified freight side) of Sunnyside Yards have been removed, down to the bare ground, except for one track at the perimeter. (Excellent view from the #7 train between Queensborough Plaza and 33rd Street.)
What are the plans for this area?
Well, it's all about ESA. Connecting LIRR to Grand Central and a possible new subway yard, allowing additional capacity for Jamaica Yard. It'll be just like CI Yard.
You are right.
Several miles of tunnels are being TBM'd or dug in the yard to connect the LIRR to the 63rd Street tube, which now extends into the yard.
Third-rail trackage is coming to that portion.
With everybody now paying $4 for a round trip to/from work, it seems that any Staten Islander within walking distance of a SIRT station and who works in Lower Manhattan continues to get a FREE ride, provided he walks from Tompkinsville to St. George. No offense to Staten Islanders, but I continue to see this as unfair. So if the TA wants to avoid funding for token clerks, how come the HEETs haven't gone up on that line yet?
(it seems that any Staten Islander within walking distance of a SIRT station and who works in Lower Manhattan continues to get a FREE ride, provided he walks from Tompkinsville to St. George.)
I think that if you were willing to walk that far, you probably wouldn't live on Staten Island. Also, since the train and ferry are synchronized, you miss a ferry as a result.
Are there actually hordes of people who get off at Tompkinsville in the morning?
SIRT actually doesn't need token clerks at any station save St. George. Some stations are flag stop only.
Since Staten Island has the least transit service of all the boroughs, and the least investment in transit infrastructure (yes, it got, or is getting, a new ferry terminal and a short extension of the railroad to a minor league ballpark, but it lost the North Shore line many years ago), I wouldn't quibble with giving residents free transit service on the railroad within Staten Island.
And the buses are not free, after all.
Yeah, all of them get off at St. George, its the only place where you have to pay to enter and exit!
It would cost more to collect fares at every station of the SIRT than it is by providing the free service. If you want to charge SIRT riders a full fare on principal alone, it will cost the rest of us money.
From what I've heard, and correct me if I'm in error, SIR isn't exactly a state-of-the art operation, with a branch along the North Shore of the island now abandoned. Given how prevalent the express bus service is there, is this causing destructive copmpetition for SIR?
From what I've heard, and correct me if I'm in error, SIR isn't exactly a state-of-the art operation, with a branch along the North Shore of the island now abandoned. Given how prevalent the express bus service is there, is this causing destructive copmpetition for SIR?
There's a fair amount of express bus service from Staten Island, but it doesn't seem to have hurt the SIR's ridership. Keep in mind that Staten Island is a large area in a geographical sense, and much of it is nowhere near the SIR line.
If you live on the western shore of Staten Island, you have no rail transit. To get to Manhattan, you have to take a bus to a train to a boat.
>>> how come the HEETs haven't gone up on that line yet? <<<
Have you seen that line? It is on the ground. Those wishing to evade the fare could just enter a station from the ROW. If the ROW is fenced, the fences will be cut.
Tom
Right. This is the obvious problem with the approach-the pictures of the line on the site appear to make this plain.
"With everybody now paying $4 for a round trip to/from work....."
If that's true, New Yorkers are even stupider than we thought. No-one need pay $4 unless they have less than $10 to their name. Everyone with a $10 bill and some common sense will now be paying $3.33 for their round trip to work.
That's Everyone with a $10 bill and some common sense and access to an MVM. As was pointed out in the SI Advance the other day, there are now 2 less MVMs in SI, bringing our total down to 8ish (and 176 MetroCard merchants). All those MVMs are in the Ferry terminal. By the time you get there, you've already paid a $2 fare on the bus.
"All those MVMs are in the Ferry terminal. By the time you get there, you've already paid a $2 fare on the bus."
Well, yes, the first time after May 4. Presumably, thereafter you can buy $10 Metrocards whenever you're at the terminal. And has it been established whether the participating merchants will sell the discounted $10, $20, etc. Metrocards? I would have assumed that they will.
"If that's true, New Yorkers are even stupider than we thought"
Stupider than WHO thought? Don't be sayin' stuff like that outloud, boyo, `less you want some trouble.
"New Yorkers are even stupider than we thought"
My apologies for the gratuitous insult. It has been noted on this board before, though, that people's choices on the subway are not always very rational (for example, in waiting for an express when it saves them no time).
Then your insult should be directed to IND riders, particularly in Queens. Most IRT and BMT riders will gladly stay on the local if they're not going very far and there's no express across the platform.
The few times I worked the (Q) you'd have a few people that would get off each express stop, run across, see if an express was coming and if not, then get back on the local.
Is that typical, or the riders just didn't like me :-P ? If the former then your claim goes out the window for the Brighton.
If they got back on the local, then this isn't what I'm referring to.
If large quantities of people get off the local at each express stop and wait for the express, even if it's 17 miles away, then you have a trainload of IND riders.
I sometimes fall into that trap when I'm running late -- if I have to wait a minute or two for the local and no express passes, my internal clock enlarges that to five or six minutes, so I figure that an express must be coming any second. I'm usually wrong.
I had an amusing experience one morning rush. I got on the local at 86th and got off at 72nd to await the express, since at the time I had a feeling it would be coming shortly. (At the time only the 3 ran express.) About six minutes and three locals later, a 3 finally pulled in. I was waiting by the last car. The doors opened, presenting a can of sardines. I waited a few seconds for some of the sardines to get off -- but none of them did. Already feeling like a fool for letting that local (and its three followers) go by, I wasn't going to pass up this train also -- so I somehow managed to squeeze in, though I had to hold my bag over my head. And I was only going to Times Square!
I waited a few seconds for some of the sardines to get off -- but none of them did. Already feeling like a fool for letting that local (and its three followers) go by, I wasn't going to pass up this train also
See! Even David does this once in a while!!!
....only going to Times Square from 86th and get off at 72.....and wait for the express - sounds like something I would do!
>>> you'd have a few people that would get off each express stop, run across, see if an express was coming and if not, then get back on the local. <<<
That just means the C/Rs are way too slow closing up. :-)
Tom
How about describing those who repeatedly pay an undiscounted fare for transit rides as "lacking in enlightened self-interest"?
Well ... $4.79 a gallon for premium gas in California (source: "CNN Sunday Morning") ... hope folks are GRATEFUL to have a subway ... meanwhile, word out of the Governor's office - watchwords for Monday, "cancel or postpone those subway car orders and just about everything else" ... April 1 approaches, the day the "budget is due" (hasn't happened in 18 years) ... and now ...
"Shutdown scare in Capitol"
My post ain't about the "war," but has anyone told Shrub that there's an America swirling down the tidy-bowl completely disregarded? :(
Good. New York has been careless with money for decades, spending vast amounts on every idiotic social and health program like there's no tomorrow. So now it's time to pay the piper. Tough you-know-what.
Yeah,maybe is is about time AMERICA woke up and made the "business class" pull their weight, for a change.
Now now ... let's not have any of this "class warfare" stuff ... the rich DESERVE a tax cut ... look at how much they've suffered since 9/11 unlike the slacker tenement dwellers in New York City who've been whacking tennis balls with their croquet mallets into their heated pools, having a good laugh at the taxpayer's expense. About TIME the wealthy got a fair shake for once.
Sure would be nice though if some of that "disaster relief" and "homeland security mad money" might come in the general direction of the one NON-Government city that was actually ATTACKED ... nah, we'd only buy another Rolls Royce with it. There's people in Keokuk that have YET to have their very own sky marshall ...
Hell, not OUR fault that our state is run by those elephant party guys who BORROW and spend instead of TAX and spend ...
What are you suggesting???? We've gutted welfare for poor people, that is enough! I hope you aren't suggesting we cut CORPORATE WELFARE! That's the good stuff, you heartless person you! Do you realize that some of those poor Enron execs have had to have garage sales and sell the furniture from one of their vacation homes to maintain a low seven figure income; please don't make them suffer any more pain! Next you might suggest they pay their fair share of taxes on thier seven figure incomes!
"Next you might suggest they pay their fair share of taxes on thier seven figure incomes! "
Out of curiosity, what would you peg as the fair share of someone with a 7-figure income. 6-figures?
On the Federal level, a think a marginal rate on incomes over $1,000,000 should be about 40%. If we limit loop holes, so that more of one's income is subject to tax, it could be lowered proportionally. Bear in mind that by loop hole, I'm not taking about things which benefit a broad cross section of the population such as mortage interest (but I would limit to one's primary residence), child credits and the like. I call loop holes the things which only the very wealth can take advantage of, things that even I (as a person with a BS in Accounting) barely know about; oil depletion allowence and the like. If you are making over 1 million, I don't think it is unfair to charge about 1/2 in tax. Let's face it, the average working stiff is paying about that much when you factor in Soc. Security, Medicare and the like and things like FICA are capped around 80k. So if the working class can pay about 40% of their pay in taxes, I don't have a problem with the top 3 or 4 percent income earners paying somewhat north of 50% on a marginal basis.
It also irks me no end when Shrub talks about making dividents tax free. If Joe Millionare inherets 50 mil from daddy, he invests it and never works a day in life, but those are dividends, so Shrub says we shouldn't tax them. I get up 5 days a week and in my hours at work, but that is taxed. Sorry that don't work for me. And lastly, if you inherit over 600k, I again don't see a problem with paying a percentage to the gov't. The person who died made the money, you didn't; and the first 600k is tax free, pony up on the rest!
>>> It also irks me no end when Shrub talks about making dividents tax free. <<<
It should, you and everyone else will be paying for that. Municipal bonds have been tax free and therefore have offered a lower interest rate. This made them attractive to the rich since the difference in income between municipals and private bonds was offset by not having to pay taxes. Now those wanting to avoid paying income taxes can buy common stock to receive tax free income, so the demand for municipal bonds will go down, resulting in higher interest rates in order to attract buyers. You know who pays that interest on municipal bonds don't you? The taxpayers in the area where they are issued.
Tom
That is why anyone who stays with the republican party is a fool
I think you guys are misunderstanding a few items.
I doubt the proposal to make stock dividends tax free will have much impact on municipal bonds. Reason is that the prices for dividend-paying common stock will increase to the point that the returns on common stock dividends will still be in the same relationship to those on muni bonds as they are now. Also, keep in mind that only dividends paid to individual investors will be tax free -- those paid into 401k's or mutual funds will continue to be subject to the same tax that they are now.
Re - marginal tax rates. They are already well over 40% on incomes over about $250K. While the printed tax tables don't show this, the reality of the Alternative Minimum Tax (which limits many of the deductions you noted as benefitting the broad cross-section) means that the marginal tax rate on the last dollars of income is often in excess of 50%. Throw on another 6-8 points in state taxes and you're getting well into the area where it makes sense to stop working.
Re - inheritances. Here's a interesting question for Piggo12 -- what do you think would happen to contributions to philanthropic organizations in the inheritance tax were eliminated? Suppose Joe Millionaire has worked his tail off to save $40 million and wants to leave $5 million cash to each of his 4 kids. If the tax rate above $600K is 50%, he has to leave each $9.4 million -- meaning he has $2.4 million left to donate to his favorite charity. If the tax rate is 0%, he has $20 million for his charity.
Old Tom -- Sorry. My original question was ambiguous. I intended to ask what the tax rate should be on 7-figures and what it should be on 6-figures, but I can see how you read it.
Just for full disclosure, my own opinion is that there should be a 2-tiered flat tax of 5 or 10% on income on the from $20-$100K and then somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25% on income above $100K. But you need to eliminate all of the deductions. All of them. And what I'd really like to see is the elimination of payroll withholding. People should have to make a conscious effort to pay their income taxes. Any time a product appears to be "free" (health care, government services) there's always waste and abuse -- it doesn't matter what party is in control.
Apologies for being so far off topic that it there's no easy reconnection to a transit topic. I'd be happy to continue discussing via e-mail if anyone cares.
CG
>>> what would you peg as the fair share of someone with a 7-figure income. 6-figures? <<<
Absolutely. 10% of $1,000,000 is $100,000. Even flat taxers say 15% is fair.
Tom
Yea, trying to provide medical care for people is certainly a boondoggle! Who could be so foolish when their are still some corporations not getting tax incentives to keep jobs in the city for 6 months or so before moving those jobs out of state.
(at least tomorrow)
here
LMAO!
Well, somehow the 76th Street station must be involved in that.
That will be closed for the festivities, it's the staging point for the poo-rade ... and will also serve as the official city drunk tank. :)
And anybody about to be dunked has to say neener-neener.:)
Rush hour only
I'd say the author of that web page started celebrating St. Patty's day a bit early.
Obviously the MTA has decided to run a "split service" for St. Patrick's Day -- they'll use the diamond crossing on the upper level of Queensboro Plaza and then switch back to the Manhattan-bound BMT track just before entering the 60th Street tunnel. This should only cause about a 15-20 minute delay for all IRT and BMT trains coming from Main Street or Astoria.
From there, I'm sure they'll run the No. 7 train to the lower level of City Hall for the return trip to Flushing. I'm just not sure if they'll send the expresses or the locals there while the other trains go to Times Square, though I'm betting on the express, since it has easier access to the upper level switches :-)
Are you kidding? It would be definitely interesting to see Redbirds or R62A's at that station. A perfect photo op.
Hehe, yeah he's kidding. But if it was true, I'd certainly be there for the photos! What a photo opportunity!
At least the R142 and R142A aren't running there. I wonder if Charlie Pellet recorded a MIND THE GAP announcement.
Only way it happens is if they suddenly have a massive need for R-62s to go to the Coney Island shop on Monday morning, and they let passengers hitch a ride at least as far as Lexington... :-)
(rolling my eyes)
No alcohol on Saint Patty's Day?!?!?! I'm OUTRAGED! (actually, St Patty's and New Years are the two days in the year that I *won't* have a beer, but that's just because I'm obstinate) ...
But CLEARLY it ain't the train crews that need a touchy-feely, politically correct community whiz here. :)
Someone needs to spread the Irish spirit of the day, no?
I asked the guys down at 370 Jay and they said that the #7 will be running to 59 St after the #7 T/O's and TW/O on duty at 111 has had a few. Unsurprisingly the job at 111 was filled.
Heh. I was born Irish. I shutter myself up in the bunker while the AMATEURS get ssssssknxxxxx. :)
But yeah, given that announcement, I wouldn't be surprised to catch a #5 train at West 8th Street on the Brighton. Heh.
Don't give them any ideas. They might go ahead and do it!
Well, int@rcours@ the gap ... I believe West 8th is lacking in some steel at the moment. If they can platform a 5 train down yonder, I'll be glad to drop coin (while still available) just to RIDE it. But it would appear that MTA HQ is awash in Peruvian Marching Dust, and the wrong people are filling bottles. :)
Then again, I was born and raised in da chitty ... if the garbage train stopped at my station, I'd grab a seat if it was the next train out. Heh.
How true, while they can run all sorts of drug tests, they still have not developed the one test most needed for management types: STUPIDITY TESTS
Ah, you've never taken the NYS Department's Civil Service "battery test" for management titles. I have. Yep, they've got THAT covered too. But I *did* learn the proper procedures for properly analyzing renegade bats in an apartment. That was worth it. :)
Renegade bats?
Were they wood, or aluminum?
No, the flying rodents. (eliminates flying rats :)) Usually found in Dracula movies. Sometimes found in NYC apartments through the stack pipe (for the non-plumbing folks, the stack pipe keeps your throne from going "burg, glug, glug, glug" when you flush.
Anyway, the little fellas get into the stack pipe, then, wet and bedraggled, gets out of the toilet and tries to fly out. (Please note: bats are nocturnal, so this stuff ussually happens at night.) Bats navigate by a form of natural sonar, so the poor animal, getting constant echoes, bounces off walls, furniture, or what have you.
The usual action is the lady of the house, using the bathroom at night is shocked buy the bat (who realizes that it now can get out), screams and calls 911. The cops, who get to deal with this withregularity, know which city department (Selkirk can give you the department name) deals with bat invasions and refers the lady (and bat) to them.
We get get them every once in a while here in surburban Baltimore. My wife, who deals with middle school kids 5 days a week, tends to deal with this as noted above. I usually get her out of the bathroom (the bat is usually either bouncing off the walls or quivering on the floor), so I just open the bathroom window, turn off the light and leave, closing the door. The bat usually recovers and flies out.
It ain't rocket science, and is real, unlike 76th Street.
Flying rodent type ... amazingly, the NYS Department of Civil Service's "battery test for supervisory titles" was mainly a read and analyze test of a situation where a person had a bat flying around their apartment. In order to pass the test to be a state supervisor, you had to write up the bat, analyze the bat, counsel the "victim" and in general outline the proper procedure for handling the bat in the apartment. There were other things of course in the test, but this was its primary focus. It was the DUMBEST test I ever took, one more reason why I piped off the ship of state to let those who scored higher count sheets of paper in my place.
But yeah, that's how they pick managers - the higher you score on the "capture the bat and write its skeevy butt up properly" the faster you get a position. The "battery test" replaced "training and experience" and agency specific testing on a specific agency's mission and policies" ... one size fits all, belfry not included, void where prohibited by budget or the lack of one. :(
I've said to customers at work sometimes that "the only way a train will go there is if was hijacked." I guess I was right about that!
Guess that whomever put this service plan figured that the #7 could follow the upper level of the QB Bridge and go to 2nd Ave. and 59th St., just like the old days.
Whoooops!!
The zero tolerance alcohol policy is waived for all 7 train riders between 42nd St / Times Square and 59th St :) I presume that somehow, track 2 on the Times Square Shuttle will be used to make this interchange.
--Mark
Looks like its just about 1/2 R62's and 1/2 or slightly more Redbirds left on the #7.
Won't be long before all you will see is Silver moving thru the air!
Yup.
Speaking of such an issue, does anyone have a list or any relevant information as to howm any of the 7's Redbird fleet have been reefed? I am seeing more and more R62A's on the 7 now, and it's not uncommon anymore to a set running.
This month's edition of THE BULLETIN, the newsletter of the NY Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association, had a great summary authored by SubTalker George Chiasson on thus subject... it's a semi-regular column.
Any way to obtain it? Hopefully online?
It's not on-line. It's by membership/subscription only. But the monthly meetings and monthly newsletter make it a great bargain.
CLICK HERE.
Definitely, and I'd join in an instant if I could attend the meetings -- but they're all on Friday nights, IINM, which pretty much rules out Sabbath-observant Jews. If even a few meetings each year were on some other night of the week, I'd very very seriously consider joining (and I don't think I'm alone).
I was a member about 10 years ago. I remember going to a few meetings in Grand Central Terminal. They have an excellent collection of reading materials. Quite a library! So many good publications on electric railroad transportation. I always wished I'd hit the lotto or something so I could donate five grand or so, just to have access to the collection. It's generally available to writers only, IIRC.
I'm a member although I can't attend the meetings because I work PM's M-F. The newsletter is well worth the dues money for my purposes.
I've been a member for many years but have attended only one meeting simply because of work or child care requirements. "The Bulletin" can't be beat and is well worth the price of dues ... so much so that I am working on buying all the back issues.
--Mark
How do you join? How much do the monthly dues cost? Do you have to be over 18 to join?
Here are the active redbirds left on the #7:
9307-9320, 9322-9345. R33 WF Singles
9362/3 9394/5 9396/7 9398/9 9422/3 9432/3 9434/5 9440/1 9450/1 9468/9
9472/3 R36 WF WH Cars
R36 ML: 9526/7 9536/7 9542/3
R36 WF GE: 9560/1 9564-9599, 9602-9625, 9628-9641, 9644-9655, 9660-9743, 9746-9769.
Hope this helps you out.
#9399 7 Flushing Local
Thank you. The data you provided is much appreciated!
Anytime! Here are the R62A sets on the 7:
1651-1665, 1676-1725, 1736-1740, 1746-1750 UNITIZED 5 CAR UNITS (DUMB)
2081-2155 SINGLE SETS.
#2155 7 Flushing Express
Anytime! Here are the R62A sets on the 7:
1651-1665, 1676-1725, 1736-1740, 1746-1750 UNITIZED 5 CAR UNITS (DUMB)
2081-2155 SINGLE SETS.
#2155 7 Flushing Express
I remember riding R-30's on the C line in the early 90's. They were painted deep red, like the Redbirds. Then, suddenly, they were gone, replaced by R-32's and R-38's.
What happened to the R-30's? Were they given the same GOH treatment as the older R26-29's and somehow didn't pan out?
Yeah, they did seem to disappear overnight. They were retired before they needed to be. The reason they were retired was because they did not have air conditioning, and the TA wanted all the cars to be air conditioned. Refitting them for air conditioning would have made them too haeavy to run on the els, so they were scrapped instead. It's a shame, because they really did have some life left in them.
Arguments could have been made that they could have been left for just the undergound lines (the C was NOT all underground back then), so that would have left only the E and the R. The problem then is that flexibility is decreased for emergency reroutes, etc, and the R30's would still have to use the els to get to the yards for service etc. Not to mention heavy trains make the tracks deteriorate faster also, even on the underground lines.
Really? I wonder if the same could have been applied to the 7's R33 singles?
However some of the R-33 singles are equipped with trips on both sides of the cars so that they can be used as first/last cars of a consist that is being moved on/off the Flushing line.....Remember the only access to/from the Flushing line is the crossover on the upper level at Queensboro Plaza.
So how do the R62A's move to C.I.Y. ? Have they gone there for heavy maintenance yet, do the Livonia ones have dual trip-cocks, or do they run in multiple with an R33S ?
Also, in addition to what Hart Bus said, the R33 singles are one car on an 11 car train. That meant that almost the entire train has AC. On the R30s, none of the train would have been air conditioned.
But they could have mixed 2 R30 in an R40/R42 consist and had 2 hot cars out of 6 on a J/Z.
Sure, let the J/Z riders suffer in the summer in a hot, red and silver candystriped train!
The C was all underground when the R 30s were pulled from service. The Smith st. el probably could have handled the ac'd R30s, so the G could have also run them. They could've been run on the C/E/R/G
The C was all underground when the R 30s were pulled from service. The Smith st. el probably could have handled the ac'd R30s, so the G could have also run them. They could've been run on the C/E/R/G
Didn't the C still go to Rockaway Park in 1992? I loved the R30's as much as anyone, but I understand their decision. My last paragraph sums it up :
Arguments could have been made that they could have been left for just the undergound lines........The problem then is that flexibility is decreased for emergency reroutes, etc, and the R30's would still have to use the els to get to the yards for service etc. Not to mention heavy trains make the tracks deteriorate faster also, even on the underground lines.
I would have kept them without their AC. This handicapp only comes into play during a 3 moth period. The other 9 months the R30 doesn't need AC. A non-AC car in the 1990's would have been unusually hot. Since all other cars had AC, their hot air was dumped into the tunnels. I'm pretty sure tunnels were not as hot before AC-equipped cars began to show up.
The C was cut back in 92, and the 30s were retired in 93
But the majority of the fleet was scrapped before the C was rerouted. There wasn't much left of the R30 fleet by the time 1993 rolled around. The decision to scrap them was probably decided in the late 80's already.
I never saw any R30 on the C line after February 1993. When the C was cut back to Euclid completely the line was already mostly R32/38.
That's what I thought. The last time I rode out to Rockaway Park on a C R30 was late August 1992, and it was the only R30 I saw that day. On the ride back, any of the C trains we past (that I noticed anyway) were all R32/38. They were very scarce even in 1992 already. If I only knew the end was near. There was no SubTalk, and I had no idea that the R30's were slowly meeting the torch.
My last R30 train ride - August 1992.....sigh......
Actually, after I got off the C at Seaside that day, and began walking to the beach, I snapped this shot of the next C train through Seaside - not too much red was left that hot steamy day:
Ditto. I had no idea that the R30 or the R10 or R16 for that matter were due to be scrapped before they were. I usually avoided all 3 car types until it was too late. Not this time. I'm seeking out the redbirds whenever possible now.
Yeah, to me the R10's just totally vanished. I didn't ride either 8th Ave or the Rockaway line often enough to notice them missing. One day I just noticed that the R30's that I was missing on the Eastern Divsion were there now on the C!
As for the R16's...I actually thought they were just out getting green paint like the R10's when they were "missing"!
As for the R16's...I actually thought they were just out getting green paint like the R10's when they were "missing"!
Me too! LMAO. By the fall of 1987, with the infusion of re-painted R42's, I realized they were gone for good. I even entertained the idea that they were moved to the SIRT, a line I had absolutley no knowledge of at the time.
I still don't understand that argument: "Too heavy to ride on the el's". If you can have 10-car consists on the IRT with AC, why can't you have 8-car consists with AC in the BMT/IND? Do the math and get back to me.
I don't think it was that the R-30 would have been too heavy. I think A/C was not installed because there was no room under the cars to install the A/C units.
--Mark
Under the cars? The AC units would have been added into the ceiling a la the Redbirds (at least I would assume so).
Isn't there some under-the-car work required for the A/C units - not just inside (on top of the car)?
--Mark
Whoa, slow down....that's the answer I got when I asked that question about a year ago.
Remember though that it doesn't matter whether it's a 10 car or an 8 car train, as the weight is spread out. So yes, a ten car train train is heavier than an 8 car train in total, but the weight of each individual car is lighter and the pressure is less as it goes over any specific point on the el.
Think of it this way.
The length of a train doesn't matter. Only the axel load counts.
Oops, I pressed post to fast by accident, I wasn't finished typing.
.....Think of it this way, an 8 car train of rebuilt A/Ced R30's may have weighed the same as a 10 car train of some other class of cars in total, but each individual car of the 8 car train of A/Ced R30's would have been heavier, and pressing down harder, than the 10 car train of let's say R40's.
It is ashame that they retired the R-30s before their useful life was over with. True, retrofitting them with A/C as you mentioned would have made them rather heavy. They could have been restricted to lines such as the "C" and the "E" where there are no elevated structures. They could have also been used on the "R" since that is a line that is completely underground. The tracks might have worn out a little faster, but you would have had a fleet of perfectly good serviceable cars. By now they would have been retired along with the "Redbirds" on the IRT.
#3 West End Jeff
This subject has been talked about before. The R30's were retired because they never had air conditioning units installed (doing so would have made the cars too heavy). By 1993 there were only 120+ left and the ending of the GOH program made them expendable.
They also had a bad MDBF, plus a converter bracket failure. When the R30's were retired, the new brackets placed on them were reinstalled on the WF R36 cars.
Were the MDBF's calculated seperatley for "overhauled" R30's, as opposed to the entire fleet, containing the just painted R27/30's?
Only GOH R30's. R27 and non-GOH R30's were not included.
What was their final MDBF?
I'm not sure, but it was written in the "NYC Subway Cars" book.
The R-30s also got new controllers which were transplanted into the R-36s.
Well Brian (BMdoobieW) had a cool little guess this location photo, so I thought I'd try one:
Where is this photo location?
CLUE - Obviously it's an LIRR FA powerpack - which was still in LIRR service, the photo was taken about 1993 or so, and the LIRR did not have it's new diesels yet. (I'm sorry I can't post the photo any bigger, but the photo website I use does not allow remote posting of photos any bigger than this).
Montauk, on April 3, 1993, at 3:52pm
Nope, not Montauk (and I guess it's not April because the tree is red...., but I guess it could be 3:52PM)
Glendale?
Nope. DO you guys need another clue?
Yes!
Alright. The station is an active station in 2003 (the photo was taken in 1993 as mentioned).
If no one gets it for a while, I'll post another photo that was taken the same day, and that photo will give it away a little better.
Here's a link to the full sized image if that helps, it's bigger:
Link
Can't link to it.
I don't think he's going to make it easy for us!
I guess imagestation won't allow link posting, you may have to copy and paste.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pbc7fd0909f76c56a9019ca2dd8dd6955/fc7f51c8.jpg.orig.jpg
Oyster Bay?
No. Well, it looks like it's too hard. Here's another photo clue taken at the same time:
It is on Metro-North! I guess Rye-Playland!
No catenary!!
Then I have no idea.
Is it located with the city limits of New York, or is it on LI?
Is it located with the city limits of New York, or is it on LI?
Your on to something. It's active (at the time) LIRR equipment, but it's not in New York City.
The picture is real, but things are not always what they seem......
Patchogue?
Nope, it's not Patchogue
With the people on the tracks it looks like it might be some sort of fan trip. (The people on the tracks is why I guessed Oyster Bay earlier, they have that ungated crossing right at the station leading to the marina) Then you showed the second picture which had both a LIRR train and an obvious non-LIRR train. The second train looks a little like that train in the picture a couple of months ago on the Evergreen Branch fan trip by the Myrtle Av El and thought it might be the same train but after locating THAT PICTURE in the archives realized it wasn't the same train. I will take a wild stab and say Riverhead and a fan trip that has something to do with the museum there.
P.S. I started ruling out stations and I am positive it is NOT Chambers Street on the "J"!!!
OK, I changed my mind. The more I think about it and the more I compare pictures on this site I am convinced that Railfan Window was right, it is Metro North, even though it can't be Playland as there is no catenary. But it can easily be one of the Metro North stations that have no third rail or catenary such as the Hudson line North of Croton Harmon towards Poughkeepsie. What originally threw me off was the fact that I think Chris lives in Suffolk. But could it be the special free fall foliage train ride they give at the Croton Open House??
P.S. I still eliminated Chambers Street and also eliminated the Straussberg RR and the Grand Canyon RR!!!
I didn't think this photo would have been so hard! I figured if Brian posted a blurred night photo, of something in the middle of New Jersey, in the dark, and someone got it (almost right away), this would be easy!
Anyway, one last clue before I give away the answer.
-Yes, you are right, it is not Chambers Street BMT.
-It is not Rye Playland....no Dragon COaster in sight.
-It WAS in fact a fan trip
-Brian is right, it is a LIRR train on Metro North. The photo with the Metro north train (a href="http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=460656">Here is a Metro North cab end (FL9 on the other side) of a train in revenue MEtro North service stopping on at the station.
-The station house shown in the photo still exists at the station, but the station has been HEAVILY remodled, and now has high level platforms.
-The train is not on the New Haven line, and there is only one track here, so that probably rules out one of the other branches also......
Come on guys, I want someone to get this.....a tour of 76th Street to the winner (Hmmm, I better check with the aliens first....)
Okay, Metro-North, one track, non-electrified. That would mean it's got to be the Harlem line north of Brewster North or the Danbury branch off the New Haven line.* I'll go with the latter, and guess that the picture was taken near the Bethel station.
* = Metro-North's Waterbury branch also would qualify, but the scene doesn't appear to match any place along that line.
Nope. The color of the schedules for this station is not red.
I thought as soon as I showed the photo of the Metro North train after the original one of just the LIRR, I though someone would get it. (I thought someone would get it before it was even annonced that it wasn't even the LIRR!)
Come on keep trying.......I don't want to have to give the answer....
Darn, that woman had to walk into my photo!
Is this Dover Plains or Danbury?
Uh oh, I think we've got it!
It was the LIRR "Dover Plains Limited" in October 1993.
Here's a photo of the same train at the end of the day in it's more familiar area....
Wow, street level! I should ride the LIRR more often, but I'm probably not missing much...
Or a location along the Beacon Line, say Hopewell Junction NY?
I didn't think this photo would have been so hard! I figured if Brian posted a blurred night photo, of something in the middle of New Jersey, in the dark, and someone got it (almost right away), this would be easy!
Anyway, one last clue before I give away the answer.
-Yes, you are right, it is not Chambers Street BMT.
-It is not Rye Playland....no Dragon COaster in sight.
-It WAS in fact a fan trip
-Brian is right, it is a LIRR train on Metro North. The photo with the Metro north train Here is a Metro North cab end (FL9 on the other side) of a train in revenue MEtro North service stopping on at the station.
-The station house shown in the photo still exists at the station, but the station has been HEAVILY remodled, and now has high level platforms.
-The train is not on the New Haven line, and there is only one track here, so that probably rules out one of the other branches also......
Come on guys, I want someone to get this.....a tour of 76th Street to the winner (Hmmm, I better check with the aliens first....)
Two tracks, no 3rd rail, must be on Hudson line, maybe one of the two stations that were replaced by Cortlandt, since Cortlandt was a relatively new station with a high platform in the middle.
No, not Cortlandt or the two stations closed because of Cortlandt. The station is rebuilt with new platforms, but still in active passenger use. The station building also still exists.
Does anyone know or have information on the V's ridership ever since it started in December of 2001?
When someone is first hired to be a train operator, bus operator, or conductor for the TA, are they issued brand new badges, or ones previously used by someone else? Are they issued a new badge if they switch jobs (like from conductor to train operator or from bus operator to train operator)?
I've never understood the purpose of the badge. It seems that a badge is needed only so that an employee can turn it around and hide the number (which violates the rules).
Most other agencies I've visited have their employee numbers incorporated into the logo patch on each employee's shirt, sweater, and jacket. As a result, the number is always visible - imagine TWU's response to that!!
I'm pretty sure it provides as an identifying element of sorts. If you have complaints or comments on one of them, you use that number and it helps a lot when writing to the MTA on the issue. I'm also sure you can award Apple Awards that way! :)
First if the badges is truned around then you can ask to see it. More of the time they turn around on there own becouse of the loop on the shirt. Second, T/O do not have badges for some reason, but C/R do. Go figure this one out.
Robert
>>> T/O do not have badges for some reason, but C/R do. <<<
It probably goes back to days of motormen in striped overalls who were not expected to come out of the broomcloset and have any contact with the public, while C/Rs were always in full view.
Tom
We used to get a badge (actually, a small ovalish plate with a number on it) but you're right - we were expected to "go to our room and stay there. And NO TV." :)
You were probably busy blessing the cab. Lol! Sorry I said that!
No you're not. :)
'Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!'*
*Famous quote from a classic movie.
>>> *Famous quote from a classic movie. <<<
The misquote is from "The Treasure of Sierra Madre" (1948). The full correct quote is:
"Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any steenkin' badges!" delivered by Mexican actor Manuel Dondé.
Tom
Well, my quote is accurate -- but it came from "Blazing Saddles" (1974) which most likely stole the original quote from "The Treasure of Seirra Madre".
"Have handle, will travel." :)
[I'm pretty sure it provides as an identifying element of sorts.]
Yes, but that still doesn't explain why it has to be a BADGE. As I noted in my earlier post, other agencies put their employee ID numbers directly on the uniform (where it can't be hidden).
It's probably cheaper to issue a badge than to sew numbers on a shirt patch.
Douce Man said it perfectly. Rather than numbers on the uniform, they could hold up bigt white signs. I guess that idea would be good. :)
I think badges convey the idea of "Officialdom" or "Authority" that a number sewn onto a shirt would not. Managers carry gold shields that resemble detectives badges.
I think badges convey the idea of "Officialdom" or "Authority" that a number sewn onto a shirt would not. Managers carry gold shields that resemble detectives badges.
Yes, I believe that this is the reason. Everybody and their cousin who works for NYC seems to have a badge of somesort. Even Voulenteer EMTs.
Elias
State law requires all RR employees to wear badges, while performing their duties.
Are all cabs in R-62's/62-a's able to be full width? I've traveled on "3" trains that are both full width and booth-like. 6's and 4's too. Who decides when a cab should be full width and when its a booth?The T/O, someone in the yard? Can the T/O change a booth cab into a full length cab once the train has left the yard?
AFAIK, all R-62/A's that have full width cabs run with them in the full width position. The cars that only have half cabs, can, obviously, only run with their cabs in the half width position.
The ones that are half can be converted to full, though it is not a job for the T/O.
How can they be converted to full? You would need to install a metal wall? You can do that in the shops, but not out on the road.
Nope...the only thing needed is the column that the door locks into. The wall folds out from the corner. Those two seats are removable, see how they're attached to the floor unlike the rest of them which are attached to the wall? Examine the panel closely, you'll see hinges. Pretty cool, eh? :-)
Oh. Shiznit. So why aren't they in the full-width position all the time?
So we railfans can take advantage of the situation.:)
Because you lose two seats.
Not to mention that the passengers lose this nice view...
No, the wall doesn't simply fold out from the corner -- there's a hole for a window in the middle of that wall. Some sort of crude metal wall is placed over the folding wall; I don't know where it comes from, but it doesn't match the other walls in the car.
Anyway, I don't think anyone's answered the OP's questions yet. All R-62's and R-62A's were built with convertible cabs, and originally they all ran in the half-width position. In the late 90's, all R-62's and most R-62A's were linked into five-car sets, at which point the cabs at either end of each five-car set were converted to transverse. The exceptions were the cars used on the shuttle (which runs 3-car and 4-car trains) and some of the cars used on the 3 (which used to run 9-car trains), which were left single. Some of them had their cabs converted to transverse (for the sake of the shuttle, but they also show up on the 3) while most didn't.
Where does that leave us now? The 1/9, 4, and shuttle always have transverse cabs at both ends. The 7 always has a transverse cab at the Flushing end (on R-62A's only, of course) but never has a transverse cab at the Times Square end. The 3 is a mixed bag.
This will be changing soon -- as the 4 gets its shipment of R-142's, it will be passing its R-62's to the 3 and the 3 will be passing its R-62A's to the 7, except for a handful that will go back to the 4. At the end of the day, the 3 will have transverse cabs on all trains but the small number of R-62A's on the 4 may have railfan windows.
"Where does that leave us now? The 1/9, 4, and shuttle always have transverse cabs at both ends. The 7 always has a transverse cab at the Flushing end (on R-62A's only, of course) but never has a transverse cab at the Times Square end. The 3 is a mixed bag."
I've seen a few instances where a 1/9 train lacked the transverse cab. Not recently, but a couple of times especially over the last summer.
When the run was running to New Lots before last September, the 1 and the 3 routinely shared equipment; those were most likely singles from the 3. Since the South Ferry branch reopened, the singles are back on the 3.
Right. I remembered that just after I submitted the post. It was fun for awhile to have the railfan window on the 1/9; the little box window seems to be blocked alot.
And all the cars went back home precisely on the night the South Ferry branch reopened. I was at 242nd that evening. Every blue-stickered car that came in went out light.
OTOH, two weeks ago, I did see a train on the 1 with blue/yellow stickers, but I couldn't make out the car numbers.
The only time you will ever see a full with cab on the Times square end is when the 7 line goes to 10 cars BTW is the 7 going to 10 cars this summer? Any one know??
Probably not the R62A 7 trains. Defintely the Redbird 7 trains, and there will probably still be some of them in service.
Because of the annoyance factor of having different length trains running on the same line, the redbirds probably will not be cut to 10 cars.
The 7 always has a transverse cab at the Flushing end (on R-62A's only, of course) but never has a transverse cab at the Times Square end. This happens because Corona Barn doesn't have a loop track as far as I know. Assuming the train is 11 cars.
Corona doesn't need a loop track to couple the trains in a different arrangement.
No, I meant that the trains are always in the same position. Meaning, one end of the car always faces that end. Coupling is a different story altogether.
Exactly (although, if absolutely necessary, a car could be turned around by looping it through Coney Island).
But if Corona wanted to switch the five-car set from the Flushing end to the Times Square end, all that would be necessary is two connecting tracks.
Ok, I have one for you. Give me the exact location and for bonus points the label of the home signal in the picture.
Where the LIRR goes under Grand Avenue?
Oops, no there's catenary. It's got to be in Long Island City somewhere. Maybe where the NYCRR passes over the LIRR?
That has to be around the Honeywell St bridge, isnt it still closed
to traffic?
That has to be around the Honeywell St bridge, isnt it still closed
to traffic? Sunnyside yards?
^^^"the Honeywell St bridge, isnt it still closed"^^^
It's reopened after TWENTY-THREE years, but seems no knows about
it after so long, they ignore it. >GG<
8-) Sparky
New York City somewhere since I see the Z100 radio station billboard.
Given how radio works, that's specious reasoning.
I thought I was onto something. Notice the sign for "Roman-Jelley Furniture" in the background. My thought was that maybe the sign is on the side of the furniture store itself, which would make it easy to pinpoint the location. Alas, the business in is Cedar Knolls, NJ, not close to any train line as far as I can tell. Apparently this must be an advertising sign some distance from the store.
I thought the same thing, and hit the same dead-end.
If it is too hard I can post a lighter version of the same pic. There is one feature that makes the location to anyone who has benn through the area or knows rail line history. It also might help to think about how the photo was taken. That is a long exposure without any blur. That means the camera had to be stationary.
Could it be Hunter Interlocking, taken from the east end of the Newark Airport station with a telephoto lens?
Try to apply Occam's Razor.
Huh?
The simplest solution is usually the right one. IE, I don't have a telephoto lens or any other fancy optical equipment.
i am guessing union interlocking. however, that rr bridge does not look like the one over union.
Nope, but your on the right track, the Amber PL reduces the location to one of about 6 places.
well, it is definately north jersey.
maybe it's not the NEC after all.
I am guessing somewhere between Newark/Broad and Kearney connection
PRR PL's are only on the NEC. If you want I can post a lighter version of the pic.
Yes, please, before I resort to violence
This must be outside of Newark Penn Station on the w/b side. The "Edison PARK" gives it away. The bridge that runs overhead across the NEC (though not perpendicular) just before the trains enter Track 1 is present in the photo. (If I'm not mistaken) Unfortunately, I can't name the home signal, nor do I know what the horizontal position signal stands for.
The horizontal signal means stop, diagnal signal is approach, vertical is clear/proceed. I know this location now. That bridge used to be the old CNJ Newark Station, wasn't it. I only know that line is abandoned now. Used to have a "Don Pepe" advertisement on Mcarter Hwy.
I remember on two separate occasions encountering an extremely bizarre R42 car. Once, a few years ago, and again, on September 6th, 2001. It was the brown diamond sign on the side, upside-down and backwards, and for that matter the entire sign was aligned backwards (from the outside, the destination signs were to the left of the route marker). The destinations marked "Shuttle" in letters far too big to fit on the sign, and the other sign read "Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts". What scares me is I got on this train and didn't even notice, because the sign on the inside was fine-I think one of the destination signs was upside down, but that's it. Anyway, since I've seen this train twice several years apart, and they still hadn't changed it, I assume the sign is physically broken, so it probably still reads that.
Has anyone seen this train? Does anybody know if it's still running/if they fixed the sign? Unfortunately, I didn't get the car number.
I haven't seen such a train but I've seen a few R40s with interior signs that have lettering so huge it barely fits.
But I do recall seeing a R40M (or R42) that had an upside down orange "V" on the interior sign roll. Also, there is a R46 (I can't remember the number...all I know it's either 60xx or 62xx) that has a brown diamond R on the front.
ALL R46s have a brown R diamond, And All cars with 3 peice* signs have upside-down signs on the sides, as well as normal ones.
*R40,42,68,68A,62,62A
The reason they have "up side down" signs is that the up side down sign is really right side up when you have it facing the correct way. They really are not up side down. The Redbirds and R32s can also have up side down readings, common on R32 N trains signed for Kings Highway. The C/R would try to get the sign to say only BROOKLYN and get the Kings Highway out of view, making another line appear up side down.
I knew that, but didnt know how to say it :)
My point was that it seems to be perpetually set as a Brown Diamond R, as if the sign was supposedly stuck on that reading...
I can't find the post now, but I recall reading here that one car's sign is stuck on Brown Diamond R
That was my post. It is R-46 car 6064. It always displays the brown R when it is on the R line, never the yellow R sign.
That was my post. It is R-46 car 6064. It always displays the brown R when it is on the R line, never the yellow R sign.
That was my post. It is R-46 car 6064. It always displays the brown R when it is on the R line, never the yellow R sign.
Not to be confused with the brown N:
David, I'm heading out now. So plan appropriately.
I remember what car you are referring to. It still displays that mixed up R sign in service. It is 6064.
#3515 F
And, gee, I thought maybe the R train had disappeared forever. What a rotten line as it has always been. Takes forever to get somewhere, never sees the light of day except for a brief moment, and is just a big boring ride. They could have given it some variety when they built it by making it go over that highway bridge or something, but I guess they decided to show both the greatness and worst of the BMT with the Sea Beach on one end and the 4th Avenue Local on the other.
"And, gee, I thought maybe the R train had disappeared forever. What a rotten line as it has always been. Takes forever to get somewhere, never sees the light of day except for a brief moment, and is just a big boring ride. They could have given it some variety when they built it..."
Well, if I may, I'd like to add a few comments. Sure, I love the Sea Beach line. But not everyone lives alongside it. I've lived near the Sea Beach and the R train. Both have their good points. Look at it this way. For residents between, let's say, Fort Hamilton Pkwy and Second Avenue, south of 59th Street, it is a pretty good thing to have an honest to goodness subway line traversing the territory. Slow as it is, the line does allow for a train ride to Manhattan. In terms of urban planning, this asset is something dozens of cities would drool over to possess. A wide straight arterial boulevard with a subway line underneath? We New Yorkers, even us Brooklynites ARE spoiled a little.
And those residents of other cities would probably drop dead when they learned that this stretch is paralled by bus lines running in the same general direction one block away east....and west. And this ain't even anywhere near the CBD of Brooklyn, let alone Manhattan! So I say, lets encourage the TA to get a little more creative in the operating procedures. Non stop N express from 59th St. Brooklyn to Union Square! Loop trains down one line and up another! Locals to the Bridge! Expresses to the rathole!
I also agree with you, if I caught your drift correctly from other postings, that the concept of the Sea Beach terminating at Times Square is a valid one. I mean, the commuter rail lines have single mid-Manhattan terminals. Not because the idea of say, a person riding from Tarrytown to Hicksville via a single train is ultimately impossible. Most people just don't need to make such a trip daily. So it just makes more sense to have a place where the train journey ends smack in the middle of the city.
What a rotten line as it has always been.
That way they called an R Train. R stands for rotten. Now you a rotten train in service. Or you can simple rat train that run through the good old famous MONTAGUE RATHOLES.
Couldn't have said better myself Express M. You said it all and you got my drift perfectly.
I'm sure all of you know what I'm talking about. This test 'proved' that R142's can't be run on the 7 until the 3rd rail is dealt with in that sector. What I'd like to know is why there is so little information on this test. All I have gathered from it is that is was conducted near the Willets Point station and 'shut down' at a certain point. That's all? I'd like to know more? How did the train get there without problems? What kind of diesel locomotive towed it back? What set was it? When was it? What set of tracks? I apologize if I am bugging into this seemingly old issue but I am desparate to know. Thanks to all concerned.
Here's another: Was there ever a R142A test on the 7?
#7211 6 Lexington Ave Local
I'm sure of it, given the posters who have claimed it in Subtalk. Searching the archives, I have found posts telling to find posts relevant to it also via the archives. I did so with no findings whatsoever.
Searching the archives, I have found posts telling to find posts relevant to it also via the archives. I did so with no findings whatsoever.
Hmmmm .... could this be 76th Street redux?
I've done some sifting through the archives and through this, it appears that if there is a credible story on the test on the test, it failed due to the R-142 train not being able to draw sufficient power from the third rail.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=292442 >
"It wasn't making proper contact with the third rail. Eventually a Diesel had to come save it."
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=293684 >
"Shoe beams are far more tolerant than current collectors (Redbirds versus R142s.) However, dropping a worn brake shoe from a Redbird and catching it with a finger as it hits the rail is far more painful than a sliver of metal from a R142. R142As may not fair well either as the third rail paddle is very small. CI Peter"
I read most of the thread with the first link. Interestingly, the thread goes off topic with talks about converting the 7 to a Division B line. Still no 'solid' proof of the test.
Adding to my previous post, given by what OnTheJuice says, wouldn't it make sense just to modify the contact shoes of the R142's for the 7?
I remember seeing a single 5-car set of R-142As on the middle track at 46-Bliss late one night. I don't recall if there was a locomotive with it, but it was full of guys in orange vests.
I still fail to comprehend why taking power from the third rail of the Flushing Line is any different from taking power from Lexington Ave or Broadway. I thought this all had to do with the lack of cranes to service the overhead HVAC units at Corona.
If it helps, after reading the accounts given in my last post to this topic, I'm similarly at a loss. It couldn't be that the Flushing line is elevated. No other type cars have had difficulties so far as I'm aware. Is there really something radically different about how the R-142 draws its power? Or is this just a conjured up myth? Maybe an R-142 was defective and this was the explanation given because some thought it best fit their perceptions and given that R-142 cars have not made their way onto the 7 line.
Until this, I had thught the reason why R-142 trains had not come to Corona yard was that it would have to be upgraded to handle the new equipment. Is there something left out of that account?
Why is that the R142s supposedly tested couldn't pick up the third rail or supposedly didn't pick up enough power? What is the difference between the 7th AVE and Lex AVE IRT third rail that they give the 142s power, and the 7 train's third rail doesn't? I don't remember the other IRT lines running the 142s, redoing all their third rail... Thanks!!
I haven't a clue. My previous posts to this topic were just reporting what turned up in the archives. I happen to be somewhat skeptical of the reasoning employed there, although it may turn out to be justified. In any case, Corona Yard would still seem to have to be upgraded like the other IRT yards were.
That's exactly why some here, myself included, are skeptical that such a test ever took place.
Corona doesn't have the facilities to maintain the R-142 HVAC units. Period. That's it. Unless 7 riders don't mind if their HVAC units are never repaired or replaced when they break, R-142's can't be used on the 7. So why even bother with a test?
My strong hunch is that this test was invented by an imaginative poster to a different message board, a message board which has a lot of posters who think they know what they're talking about but has only a few who actually do. Other participants took it as fact and ran with it.
Of course, I may be wrong. (Nobody ever said that I knew what I was talking about.)
Good analysis. IMO, this kind of has a relation with the R62 test that was conducted on the Flushing line in 1985. Maybe the MTA didn't want its new toys on the Flushing line. I know there was an incident involving headlights hitting something or another, but it took 17 years for R62's to actually come to the Flushing line for revenue service? Something is up. Of course, I really don't want to believe it and I'll be more interested in this thing until Corona has signs of reconstruction.
I believe Train Dude mentioned the building of new yard leads. To be honest, I don't know where they could be placed. In conclusion, I just wish some railfan, somewhere took pictures of the R142 test. Assuming it actually happened of course.
When the R-62's (I think they were R-62's, not R-62A's) were run on the 7 in the 80's, there were problems with guard lights being knocked off.
The problem was fixed shortly thereafter, but by then it had been decided that the 7 would be running only Redbirds for the time being, like the 2 and 5.
Well, after reading most of thread, it seems to me that your theory on the test never happening seems to be the case. Unless there's a pic or even a surfacing of a possible set that was used, it is safe to assume it didn't happen or it did happen and some foamer saw it, but didn't bother to prove it logically.
Shades of the 76th Street Station saga.....
Maybe they dragged the R142 that was tested on the 7 that day and burnt it's motors out to the 76th Street station to store it and forget about this expensive blunder....
Out of sight - out of mind.
Really, all kidding aside, I think with all evidence and assumption in mind, the next rolling stock the 7 will see will be new rolling stock, just for it, and possible the lines that don't plan to receive either the R142 or the R142A, which seems to be the 1 and 3 right now.
Wait, I have to sneeze....Hah...Hah....hah.....straphangers....chooo.
I am sceptical about the whole test. The R62A's can run with no problem on the 7 line, and the R62A's line can share trackage with the R142's (and the redbirds) on the mainlines. So why would all three types of trains not be able to run together (at least physically) on the Flushing line. If there are problems with the different trains running together on the same tracks there, the same would have to be true on the mainline routes also.
Not to knock that other board, but there is a reason I only visited there about 5 times in the last year.
142s definitely ran on the Flushing line; I saw them there. The outcome of that run, and whether the third rail needs some sort of "upgrade," remain mysteries.
I'm guessing you didn't take pictures, didn't you? Do you at least remember a set possibly?
I didn't have a camera on me at the time, but I did find my original post on the matter. My memory was failing; they were 142s, not 142As, at 69-Fisk, not 46-Bliss. Cars were 6351-6355, and they were there solely for parking brake tests. See David's followup to my post.
I'd like to know more about the parking brake tests if anyone could email me. The first of the Bombardier R142 warranties has expired.
Who knows? I have a feeling their is none, but I think the MTA may be lying about it, which I hope isn't true. If anything, I have noticed construction along the express track in Queens, replacing sections of 3rd rail. Does this hold any promise? I mean, there are several sections that still have wood covers rather than fiberglass, though I'm guessing that has nothing to do with it.
That has nothing to do with the supposed 142 test, its being done because the rails on the Flushing line, especially track M are in sad shape. At least that is my understanding.
That the M track is in sad shape is true. Probably the bounciest ride in the system, either on the R-36 ot R-62A is to be had on the stretch between Woodside and the ramp over 111th Street. Additionally, there is a pretty violent jolt, a horizontal motion, in the NB Steinway tunnel soon after the upgrade, following the interlocking.
By the way, isn't that a peculiar place for an interlocking to be placed?
what's wrong with the third rails?
Supposedly, the R142's can't draw enough power from them.
Hello folks, maybe I'm just plain ignorant. But I still feel that the flushing line should have recieved those or some r142's. When the r62's and r62a's were delivered, the 1,3,4,and 6 got their share of the goods. While the 2,5,6 and 7 got rebuilds or just painted cars, I think the flushing line was dealt a low deal. Just voicing my opinoin that's all.
From many perspectives, it's better for 7 line riders to not have the new cars, I feel.
1. In terms of yard efficiency, I think it would simply make more sense for Corona Yard to focus on the R-62A, similar to the way that many yards, even on the B-division, with more car types seem to operate, e.g., Concourse: R-68; Jamaica: R-32, R-46; etc. Two cars to master is more difficult than one, or possibly even three, for will the subway have enough R-142/R-142A cars to retire the entire Redbird fleet, which still comprises a sizable portion of the Corona fleet?
2. If Corona Yard stuck to R-62/R-62A's, then a costly overhaul might be avoided.
3. If the 7 line were to get the R-142 trains, which still seem to have some kinks to work out, even now, MDBF would decrease from the present fleet, which although aged, performs quite admirably, I think.
If the 7 line is next to be upgraded to CBTC, though, and that signalling is only possible with new trains, then maybe these reasons are in vain.
If the 7 line is next to be upgraded to CBTC, though, and that signalling is only possible with new trains, then maybe these reasons are in vain.
I'm pretty sure they are in vain. Wasn't there a mention in the MTA's Capital Plan or something that said the 7 was next in line for CBTC? The line is getting new signals.
BTW, regardless of CBTC, Corona does have a reconstruction planned starting this decade.
But the 7 should have gotten R62s or R62As sooner, in my opinion. Once they removed the guardlights that broke off in the Steinway tunnel and realigned the trackage, R62s or R62As should have gone to the 7, even before the delivery of a single R142 or R142A.
The 7 line will NOT see R142/R142A anytime soon. They will only see R62As after the Redbird phaseout. Corona Yard will definitely need to be redone before any R142/R142A or any other type of equipment will see that line. Also a loop track around the yard will have to be put into place. And yes they are working to install new signals so I assume that may be the reason(s) for the many GOs on that line.
And does the 7 line have a car wash for the R62As? There are a few cars there that look pretty dirty-aka 1698 2093 just to name a few.
#1700 7 Flushing Local
Also I forgot another point as to why R142/R142A will not see the 7 line: The 7 NEEDS 11 cars NOT 10!
Whoever thought of linked 5 car sets is a complete moron.
They should've been in at least 2 car sets. If there's something wrong with 1 of those 5 cars, then that whole set has to be taken OOS which is DUMB! 2 cars OOS is better than a whole 5 car set.
But the 7 will need SINGLE CAR sets rather than that of 2 or 5 car sets despite that they have R62As now in 5 car sets but 1 set a train.
#1695 7 Flushing Local
Whoever thought of linked 5 car sets is a complete moron.
T/O's with Yard Switching jobs are probably very grateful for them. You should see a move using single car units, it's hell. Pick one, drop 1, pick 2, drop 1 here pick another, drop one somewhere else. At least the 5 car sets reduces the amount of work for everyone in the yard (except maybe the barn).
I think it was a portion where there was a curve or grade of some sort. If you looked at the shape of the third rail contact shoe on the NTTs, they're a small square and not a long rectangle. There's less area for contact. It's able to draw the same amount of power but in cases of curves or grades, maybe it lost some contact. Then again, there are regular gaps throughout the system trackage anyway.
At the end of the 179 St bound platform at Parsons (where the 10 car marker is) there is a room labeled "Tower." Is this tower still in operation and if it isn't, when was it closed?
That tower remains in operation, although not on a 24/7 basis.
Is that interlocking controlled from 179th St? Since 1988 those switches haven't been needed for regularly scheduled service.
The tower at Parsons/Hillside controlled the switch at that station, I think. In the days when the E and F trains both ran to 179th Street, it was a beehive of activity at the times when F trains were switching to the local track to serve 169th Street.
Which tower controlled the switches at 169th Street, though?
Back in those days when the E and F both went to 179 St, which was local and express from Continental to 179 St?
"F" was express, "E" was local
But there were a number of times during rush hours when the F would slide onto the local track to stop at 169th Street, and then go back on the express track, either towards 179th Street, or west of Parsons Boulevard. During midday hours, the F would do that also.
Before Archer opened, 169th Street was the third-biggest bus-subway transfer point in Queens (and, thus, the city as a whole). It certainly wasn't built to be a major transfer point, and there were times in rush hours when it would be physically impossible to get in and out of the station, particularly on the 168th Street side, due to the crowding. It was also a near-gridlock condition in the area, due to all of the buses that were coming into the area. It was never a shock to see lines stretching for more than a block to get on the buses there in the evening rush hours.
I remember that service pattern. After 9:30 AM, the F would switch from the express to the local, stop at 169th, then switch back to the express to run from Parsons to Continental. The E ran local 24/7. 169th Street was a HUGE bus/commuter van-to-subway transfer, many of the transfers now made at Jamaica Center. I used to hate the intersection of 168th and Hillside. Bus after bus after bus ...
Which tower controlled the switches at 169th Street, though?
179 St. Tower.
Yup, but that service ended when the E was rerouted to Archer Ave.
Question: Prior to IND service to Jamaica-179th Street, on the E & F,
did both terminate at Jamaica-169th Street or did the local go to
169th & the express end at Jamaica-Parsons Blvd?
8-)Sparky
Question: Prior to IND service to Jamaica-179th Street, on the E & F,
did both terminate at Jamaica-169th Street or did the local go to
169th & the express end at Jamaica-Parsons Blvd?
I don't think the express tracks were used from 1937 to 1950. Both routes went local.
Before 179th Street opened, express trains terminated at Parsons Boulevard.
I would have thought all trains would be needed to serve 169th Street, even before 1950.
There used to be signs up at Union Turnpike that indicated that the express trains terminated at Parsons Boulevard (they were up about 20-25 years ago. No one remembered to take them down).
There's a crossover switch on the express tracks east of Parsons Boulevard. Given the movements that were needed to turn trains at 169th Street (from one local track to another), I'm guessing that the track capacity wasn't there. Plus, a lot of the population growth that affected Southeast Queens hadn't happened in 1950, so there may have been less intermodal transfers at that point.
I had also forgot about the BMT on Jamaica Ave, which before 1950 would have been the major subway line in that area.
It was also a block away from both Jamaica Bus Terminals, which made for somewhat easy intermodal connections.
Check 'em out here
There are photos I selected from my collection. Most of them are from the C line opening on 4/5/02. A few are from the Southwest Corridor preview while still others are from a sneak preview of the first segment opened in 1994.
I went out yesterday to check on the progress of the new line under construction. Bridges are going up at various arterials where the tracks will cross over. One such bridge over Orchard Road already has its girders in place and is a high, graceful structure. The others have only support piers in place. The T-REX project - the widening of I-25 - is now 36% complete. The whole enchilada is scheduled to be finished in 2006.
Nice pictures.
It should embarass New Yorkers that Denver's been able to build a light rail system in a reasonable time frame, when it New York it takes four years to install a station elevator (2/3 platform at Penn Station).
There was a 77-mile system on the drawing boards over 20 years ago, but a 1980 ballot issue to increase the sales tax by 0.1% to help pay for it got voted down. It's funny - everybody I've talked to who voted in 1980 voted for it, myself included. Go figure. Back then, it seemed that "Just say no" to anything new was in vogue. No to the '76 Winter Olympics, no to light rail, no to this, no to that.
There are other lines being planned, and now support for light rail is strong. The next line that would come to fruition is the West Corridor out to Golden, but that's a long way off. An environmental impact study is being done at this time. The earliest it could be up and running is in 2008. Like the Southwest Corridor, the West Corridor would use an existing railroad ROW for most of its route.
I suppose my next photography goal would be to get pictures of every car in the light rail fleet. I have most of them covered already, except for the newest vehicles in the 132-149 range.
For people living in the Sunset Park/Bay Ridge Region, do you guys notice that are more M Trains arriving in and out of the 36 Street Stop, then the R Trains going in and out? On a typical evening weekday rush hour coming back from work on the W in Midtown, you would need to transfer at 36 Street for the R to come back to Bay Ridge. Instead, what I would get would be 3 M Trains, with half-filled passengers, who even by the way, transfer to the W, across the platform. And, would even up happening is the M Train sitting on the Local Track for like an hour for the train to clear. Then, two minutes later, another M train comes, and then a W Train, etc. Finally, like standing an 20-30 minutes for the R Train to arrive.
Thats why the R is called the Rarely, instead of the Romeo. Similarly, the N train is called Never instead of Nancy, and the W is called Whenever instead of (this one skips my mind). Does Q stand for question? or quandary?
It seems though that the Q (even though it goes only to Brighton with the Stillwell Ave. reconstruction) gets better service than the other lines. I hate the W, and miss the reliable N which is now defunct as well as the R is.
RELIABLE N?!?!?!?!?!??!
With no offense to Sea Beach Fred, there is no more appropriate name than the N - Never. I work at 59 and Lex and use the BMT lines in the morning, evening and at lunch time. I find that dispite having 3 lines serving the Lexington Ave Station, I get a W about 1/2 the time. To me the 7/01 changes were a God send. To me the W kicks *ss compared to the N or R in terms of reliability.
And for the record, of the 50% of the time I don't get a W, I think the other 50% is about 30/20 in favor of the R.
Nothing scientific here, just my impressions.
Impressions, how about this
R is for RATHOLE, ROTTEN
N is for NASTY, NOT RUNNING
W IS FOR WIMPY, WILTING
AND
Q IS FOR QUEEN FOR A DAY
In radio terms, the W is Whiskey, and the Q is Quincy.
"Finally, like standing an 20-30 minutes for the R Train to arrive"
It is for this reason the MTA has to run more costly to operate express bus service.
The sea Beach and Bay ridge bound R would attact more passengers if they came more often.
I was riding the R5 into town today from Haverford and boy was I surprised when we took the diverging route at the 79 and 75 switches and then went down via the 36th St connection into PENN intelrocking. Our train then platformed at the #9 track of the lower level of 30th St station. The reason for this first class treatment? Well, as I read in Metro, the Rail Power Project has progressed into the 30th St. station trainshed and now on weekends all R2/7/8/5 trains will platform at the lower level of 30th St station. The R3 Media will platform at University City.
While I was heading in on the main line admiting the position lights in the fading light we passed the OBERBROOK home signal at APPROACH SLOW. However the #2 track was at MEDIUM CLEAR. Well while we waited at the platform signal set to STOP the westbound 3 Rivers passed us at speed. Aside from the viewliner, Amfleet II and 3-4 Horizon coaches the train was trailing about 8 express cars and 15 roadrailers. I thought Amtrak dropped its express bussiness. I know that Amtrak hauls mail and the MHC's are out of bussiness, but that was one heck of a lot of mail.
BTW, after the 3 Rivers passed in front of us it took about 15 seconds for operator OVERBROOK to throw the pneumatic switch and clear the signal. Later on while waiting at PENN's home signal controled by CTEC desk 5 it took several minutes. Maybe those old style towers still can show us a thing or two.
I noticed that PATCO has pasted a big "Authorized Personal Only" in both engligh and spanish sign on the little half doors to its driver's cubicle. Is PATCO cracking down on the age old practice of people sitting in the not-in-use cubicles on crowded rush hour trains?
>>> Is PATCO cracking down on the age old practice of people sitting in the not-in-use cubicles on crowded rush hour trains? <<<
Homeland security at its best! :-)
Tom
Well, I'd seriously doubt that, even if you were allowed into the cab as always, theres a cover over the controls, and then you'd need a key, and even than I'm not sure if the controls would even work, given that you'd undoubtedly be in a trailer car.
I think PATCO is finally afraid that the same thing that happened to SEPTA with the kid getting his head ripped off while sticking his head out the window in the T/O's position (wasn't that on the BSS?). A couple of times I sat in one of those seats, often the windows were unlocked or not even closed, last fall I saw a businessman sitting there, window opened (he had opened it while going over the Ben Franklin Bridge), his paper and tie flapping in the breeze. Now at the time this happened it was as legal as it got, it just happened to be his bad luck that there was a DRPA police officer standing at Ferry Ave Station, who didn't much like it that this guy had opened the window. He even admitted opening the window. All the officer did was tell him to sit elsewhere in the train and lock the window.
You gotta love this photo! Taken this afternoon at 33 St.....
Take Pride,
Brian
What time this afternoon? I think I'm at the RFW on the Queensboro Plaza-bound train.
3:42pm. No, you aren't, because I have a photo of the RFW that you speak of and no one is at it. Bummer. What time were you at the RFW?
---Brian
Ah... it would have been about half an hour before then. I saw only one set of 62As today :).
Wow, that's a New York Classic!
SAY NO TO SILVER!
Awesome pic!!! Well done!!! Email that to transitalk. I'm sure you'll get rail photo of the month. What are the car numbers?
I have 1 of an R68A with an R62A leaving QBP at the same time.
If you'd like to see it, email me and place in the subject line QBP Pic.
#9731 7 Flushing Local
I'm glad you like it. When the meet happened I knew it would turn out to be an awesome photo (as long as my camera took the photo in focus). Last car on the QBP bound train is 9765. First car on the Flushing bound train is 9747.
Beautiful pic. Glad to see there will be a few birds when I get back to NYC in a week.
AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH Redbirds RULE!!!!!!!!!!! 2 silver pieces of you know that last word on the road 1 with 1676 and 1 with 1716. YUCK!!!!!!!!
Afraid to say it, but we have to get used to those R62 R62A R142 and R142As because the R142 focus is shifting from the 5 to the 4. The R62 will go from the 4 to the 3 thus bringing the R62As from the 3 to the 7. And is it possible that the reason why 7181-7210 are not used is because of future use for the Shuttle? Will there be an order from 1251-1300? If not then why the gaps? It's so stupid. I would have completed the order up to 7210 and then use 1101-1220 and perhaps order extra cars up to 1300 to fill the gaps and/or use 1251-1300 for the Shuttle.
It's like the R62/R62As. The gap from 1626-1650 is just so dumb.
No reason for it.
#1625 4 Lexington Ave Express
Where is Salaam to praise this pic? He'd love this as I do. Truly beatiful.
Brian, take a real challenge and do the same with R62A's on the 7!
I refuse to stoop that low.
---Brian
Heh, you're pathetic!! :D
No!!!!! SAY NO TO SILVER!!!!
NEVER!!! SAY NO TO RED!
Hehe
This is your brain.
This is your brain on Silver.
Just say no.
I was saying no to silver fifteen years ago but it was a futile effort...
-Robert King
Maybe I'm just getting punchy from looking at too many PDFs, but it looks like there is no service to 4th Avenue local stations between 36th & Pacific during the early a.m. They show the R and N as skipping these stations enroute to Pacific Street, and they don't show these on the W schedule either.
I assume this is an error and the W covers these stations?
Assuming no GOs, the last W to make local stops in Brooklyn leaves Stillwell at 0541 and 36 St at 0608. The first N/B R leaves 95 St at 0515. According to the Timetable, the N, when it runs, is ALWAYS a 4th Ave express, although at times it will run express on the local.
So the PDF for the W is incorrect? They went to the trouble to asterisk the W trains that stop at deKalb, but neglected to mention that the same ones (I assume) stop at 4th Avenue local stops.
A sort of related question--if anyone here actually uses the service. If were arriving Pacific on an R or N shuttle, and were heading for midtown, would you be better off waiting for a W, or hiking to a Q or IRT train?
Or call car service. This was my line, and there were times late night you waited hours for the sake of not having the card of a reasonable car service upstairs, or not enough cash onboard to get to the MannyHannyChemical branch at the 4th/5th Av merge, etc.
From the Timetable:
Local in Bklyn, Man, Queens via tunnel
0017 (and every twenty min thereafter)
0417
0436
0450
Local Bklyn, stop @DeKalb, via Bridge
0507
0521
0531
0541
Express Bklyn, bypass DeKalb via bridge
0553 (and every ten min thereafter until 0703)
R shuttles arrive at Pacific eight minutes before the N/B W.
N shuttles arrive at Pacific six minutes before the N/B W.
Northbound Q and W trains are scheduled to depart DeKalb at the same time; ie, they make a cross-platform connection.
All of this is based on no GOs and no delays en-route.
Late Nights: N/R express, W local; I'm not sure what you're asking.
He's asking about the portion before the W comes it. South of 36 Street but north of 59 Street. The two local stops there.
Barring GO's, the R always makes those two stops and the N never does.
If you want to see a real spectacle, please go here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=68060
Take Pride,
Brian
Ok, there is only one photo, so it should be (w/PHOTO!)
Looks more like an automobile accident. The bus seems to be smiling. :)
Didn't seem to be much visible damage to the bus. The car, on the other hand, is probably going to be a junkyard special.
No visible damage to the bus. BUT, when the bus driver pulled forward, she found out that she couldn't steer! She could only go "forward" with the bus turning at the angle the tires were locked at. So figure that one out.
Guaranteed within a week there will be 200 people wearing neck braces who'll swear they were on that bus. As a matter of fact, maybe I'll join 'em now that I'm retired and can't be fired!! Just kidding!! :)
No visible damage to the bus. BUT, when the bus driver pulled forward, she found out that she couldn't steer! She could only go "forward" with the bus turning at the angle the tires were locked at. So figure that one out.
It might be that the bus suffered some sort of steering failure that led to the crash.
Unlikely -- it was in the middle of a left turn when it was apparently hit by an oncoming car. According to an apparent witness, the car hit the front right wheel of the bus. The wheels were locked in position, cocked slightly to the left.
The busdriver's glasses give off reflections. From the followups, I gather it's a she. And this is the point: she remained at the wheel, cop-or-no, till hell froze over, lest her job be in jeopardy -- and probably behaved as a total Nazi towards her passengers, demanding that they remain contentedly seated while all sorts of Union s. got sorted out.
Wow ... and I thought *I* was a cynic. :)
I'm sure the "customers" had to remain in their seats until each got a chance to talk to a police officer, have their statements taken and be checked out by medical personnel. I wouldn't blame the union here, I'd be too busy leaping on the floor and yelling "owwie!" Heh.
Actually, when all you want to do is get home, a Nazi, lets-wait-for-the-cops, Union-Rules bus driver is the worst thing you can encounter. He/She might hit you.
I'm sure the bus driver in question wanted to get home too. Alas, when you work for a government, there are rules and procedures to be followed ALWAYS and woe be to those who don't play nice according to them. I seriously doubt the UNION was the reason for any of it. Rest assured though, it wasn't "union rules" that were responsible for the necessary police investigation of any incident involving government property (the bus) and they wouldn't allow passengers in a plain old car involved in an accident to walk away either until all the paperwork was done. All I can say is be grateful for the law of averages that ensures it won't happen to you EVERY day. Sometimes, it's someone else's turn in the barrel. :)
In Baltimore the rules for bus/rail accidents is as follows:
1. Stop the vehicle.
2. Call the radio control center for police/medical aid.
3. Remain in the vehicle with the doors closed and locked until help arrives. (This insures no other person can board and claim they were inured. While awaiting help, hand out information ("witness") cards to the passengers and have them fill the form out.
Obviously a union plot there as well. :)
No.
ATU Division 1300 had nothing to do with it. When we got a new MTA Police Chief in 1979, who came from the City Police Department, the policy was created. It was instuted to seriously reduce false injury claims.
And it worked.
As an aside, the Maryland Transit Administration Police Department is not a Mickey Mouse outfit. The officers must graduate from the Baltimore City Police Acadamy and are sworn police officers. In Maryland, all police powers are given by the State. A police officer in any jurisdiction has police powers anywhere in the state, but normaly officers from one jurisdiction don't do enforcement in another. They do come to the aid of a police officer anywhere in the state.
Not to worry, bro ... I was just kidding. I'm sure that's the policy in EVERY city that's at risk of false claims. NYC has had decades of experience with folks climbing onto "wrecks" so they can lay down and hit the looto. But then again, we all know it's a union conspiracy to irritate the riders. :)
". Remain in the vehicle with the doors closed and locked until help arrives. (This insures no other person can board and claim they were inured."
Didn't that happen here in New York in the past? I've heard of that scam of "additional" accident victims waltzing on board and moaning in mocked pain.
Bill "Newkirk"
Silver paint isn't just for the 46's anymore:
http://groups.msn.com/GoumbasNYCSubwayPhotos/r44.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=93
http://groups.msn.com/GoumbasNYCSubwayPhotos/r44.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=95
I'm confused... haven't the 44's been silver for years?
He's refering to the newly painted end bonnets.
Peace,
ANDEE
Geez ... whatever happened to ConTacT paper in wood grain or floral print ... or in these "troubling times" a nice duct-tape job? :)
They should bring back the blue stripes instead! :)
I know that they once made ConTacT paper in that color ... peel and stick. :)
R-44's? Fine. Just keep the silver paint away from my R-33's! We all know what happened the last time they were painted silver.
This is not my photo.
"This is not my photo."
It is also inside-out - the "DB" logo is in mirror-writing.
Nice picture, though.
Heh, heh. You almost got it. The guy who took the photo said the photo is of the reflection of the ICE train behind him.
Anyone see this yet? There's a series of scenes where she's flirting with some guy on the subway. The car is signed above where the guy is sitting, "Bleecker St." and below that, "Downtown." Looked like a typical Hollyweird subway car set on a sound stage.
Who is this "Lucy?"
That's the name of the singer/artist, Lucy Woodward.
I just checked E-Bay for MTH Subway stuff for sale. Perhaps my values are skewed but I find some folks out there are absolutely mad. One seller has the original D-line set with an opening bid of $849.00 and the R-32 set for $1,499.00.
And just why is this "madness"???
Is it because YOU can't afford those prices?
If the seller gets bids,it's not "madness", it's just capitalism at work.
I think the same person has been offering that D-Train set for several weeks now; the price was originally close to $1,000. In each case, the bidding period ended with no takers.
Either the seller hopes that someone is dumb enough, desperate enough, fanatical enough, or obessive/complusive enough to pay that price.
At one point, I bid on a train set that rose gradually in price until five minutes before the end of the auction. I was competing with two or three people during those last minutes; our bids were increasing in $5 or $10 increments. Suddenly, during the last 15 seconds, someone bid $200 more than the rest of us.
I've even heard theories that people will have friends and relatives put in a really high closing bid to clinch the sale. The next week, they'll re-sell the same item, and do the same thing again. The idea is to give the illusion that the item is more valuable than it really is, so that it can evetaually be sold at an artifically high price.
Last month, one of my local train stores aquired a used, near-mint D-Train set with Protosound set, and sold it to me for $270. The store owner (this is in Los Angeles) knew little about the set or its value. He said that it was placed on consignment from a regular customer whose wife demanded that he sell off some of the boxed-up items that he never used. Since I missed out on this set when it was originally sold, I consider myself lucky.
I tracked an eBay buyer last year who had posted positive feedback for the same seller 14 times. The same buyer also apparently ships the merchandise for the seller. The buyer and seller live only a few blocks from each other in Queens.
And eBay won't do anything about it!!!
Perhaps it hard to track or it's happening with too many people. If EBay wants to deal with such an issue, they may require an overhaul of their systems.
I think E-bay takes the Rodney king approach, "Can't we all just get along?. The rules work for the honest people but E-bay is reluctant to take a stand against the dis-reputable. Perhaps they fear litigation. I'm sure many sellers use shills to stimulate bidding and inflate prices. Let the bidder beware.
Actually Ebay takes the Sgt. Schultz approach:
"I know - Nothing!!!, I see - Nothing!!!"
They DO warn against shill bidding; and their policies discourage it. But in reality they're really powerless against it. They are also powerless over Bid Sniping too, especially when the sniper bid comes from "sniffer" software. I buy 45RPM records on eBay, have bought over a thousand of them, and have been outbid on several occasions at the last minute, many times by one particular wag. They did him in by posting negative feedback against him and refusing to honor his bids.
wayne
The nerve of someone to outbid you!
"I think the same person has been offering that D-Train set for several weeks now; the price was originally close to $1,000. In each case, the bidding period ended with no takers."
Obviously, Steve Hoskins, who aparently CAN afford to be ripped off, has not seen this item, yet. Some people say it's capitalism. I think capitalissm would be to set an opening bid at $1.00 and then let the market take it's course.
When you set an opening bid that's so clearly over the top, you are actually asking, "Are there any assholes in the house?"
True, Steve. BUT, if no one places a bid (reasonable people) then the seller is the one who becomes the asshole.
Remember the old slogan: 'Let the Buyer Beware'.
Obviously, the buyers are being 'WARE'. No bids yet for either.
Bidding on eBay is simple - know what an item is worth to you, decide on the maximum amount you will bid before you get started, and don't go beyond that limit. I really don't care how much someone else paid for something - I've seen plenty of fools on eBay overpay for relatively common items.
Jim D.
[Suddenly, during the last 15 seconds, someone bid $200 more than the rest of us.]
That's what I call 'pouncing' -- and I do it often myself (although NOT for that kind of money.). Waiting till the last few mintues is a good way to get an item that you really want w/o usually having to worry about any other bidders getting the chance to place additional 'hits' that might outbid you.
[I've even heard theories that people will have friends and relatives put in a really high closing bid to clinch the sale. The next week, they'll re-sell the same item, and do the same thing again. The idea is to give the illusion that the item is more valuable than it really is, so that it can evetaually be sold at an artifically high price.]
I bet that's more common than most people might think. Actually, I suspect some of the sellers use alternate addresses/handles to 'bump up' the bidding to make their items a 'must have' for the collector.
Why would someone have friends and relatives put in really high closing bids?
That would only raise the "End of Auction Value Fee" and COST the seller money.
But still, SOME sellers probably do this ANTICIPATING that their item will get a 'bite'. Sure, if the item goes unsold it'll cost them abit more from ebay -- BUT they also have the option to re-establish it at ebay for another go-round.
Well, if there is a pattern of bid shilling going on, it can be reported it Safe Harbor at eBay.
They do investigate reports of shilling and if they find that it is indeed bid shilling, they will NARU (not a registered user) the user.
Doug,
While you may pounce, it is called "sniping" on ebay.
Any relationship to Wesley Sniping? :)
Just curious, Since TSS's have to be road qualified, how often do they have to keep up their T/O skills?
Are their assigned areas of responsibility the same as tower operators?
Can they operate a train outside of that area in order to keep up t/o skills?
I retired in 1991 but at that time a TSS (Motorman Instructor) had to be a Train Operator (Motorman) first. I was never given additional practical tests but I took over the controls of a number of trains in my career in order to keep my skills honed. I also did it because I enjoyed it and besides the regular road guy liked it a heck of a lot too. We picked based on seniority in the line concept which means you picked a line first and then a shift. I don't think it would be a good idea to operate outside your jurisdiction or to operate off the clock.
I hope this is helpful.
bklynsubwaybob
Last September or so at 57/7 I was on an R-40 diamond Q preparing to move out and a man in a white shirt, whom I gathered was a dispatcher based on the conversation he had with the T/O. He handled the train with the motorman looking on until at least Canal Street. I took it he was assigned the portion for time at the controls. He also made a comment, just as we were coming into 14th Street, otherwise I'd have inquired, to the T/O along the lines of, "These things don't take off like they used to..." to which the T/O responded with something like, "Yeah, not after the Williamsburg Wreck." Any ideas on what this meant?
I remember the Williamsburg Bridge wreck in which the Motorman was killed. If I'm not mistaken, the cause of the crash according to the TA was that the automatic signals were too close. I believe the real culprit was the abbreviated number of brake shoes on each car and that they were composite. The AB and R16 cars never had any trouble braking and never rode into the back of another train even when tripped. The M/M falling asleep behind the controls in multiple may have had something to do with it.
bklynsubwaybob
The AB and R16 cars never had any trouble braking
The R-16s couldn't accelerate, either :)
--Mark
As SB and i disagree as to what the final report means I will concentrate on things we do.
Those brakes were inconsistant. Tests of that equipment showed a wide variety of brakeing distances over a variety of common conditions wet rails, dry rails ,Full service Vs BIE.
The signals may have been adequate just not for those cars brakes or the acceleration curve those trains had.
I read it the same way you did, primarily a problem with those #$@%^&!@ "composite shoes" just not having the "grab" of the old cast iron jobbies. Folks wanted a "quieter subway" and the increased braking distance of the composites is the price. At the same time, they DID put in higher horsepower "standard motors" on the trucks (I'll leave the details to Train Dude, but if I remember correctly they replaced 100 HP units with 140 HP units) so the two together did result in a problem.
Aside from the safety issues, it's sad that this choice of the composites (to "quiet" the trains) and the bigger motors have resulted in a VERY slow railroad by comparison to how it was back in my day. The solution to this mess remains a complete resignalling of the system or at least adding one more block behind the previous train to ensure stopping.
Wasn't the WillyB wreck on the downgrade?
IIRC the original 110-hp motors were replaced with 115-hp motors. Too bad the R-10s never got 115-hp motors.
Make that 100 hp originally, not 110. Sorry.
Yeah, wasn't sure between 115 and 140 ... I remember the hundreds though. After 30 years, I was amazed that I remembered where the headlight switch was or where full service was. :)
Listen, I was very impressed with what you remembered while rousing 1689 last October. You had an answer for every question I asked about that car.
Heh. So was I. I've definitely gotta get me a life. :)
How much braking is sacrificed by the new, more quiet shoes? I wonder if the question were squarely put up, would we really trade lives for less noise? Would we trade a slower commute for a quieter one? And how much quieter? I would think that most of the noise is vibrations and horn blowing.
That's a question best lobbed over the transom into Train Dude land. He DID provide the numbers a year or more ago in response to a similar question. It's not a LOT of difference in the braking profile, but it's ENOUGH of a difference that it was one of several issues that resulted in the slowing down of trains as a result of the WillyB episode.
I *THINK* it was 2.3 MPH/sec vs. 2.1 now, might have been more drastic. However I didn't store the statistics since I'm not into statistics generally. There WAS a difference though and it struck me as profound - so much so that I wondered personally why the rule for a 12-9 remains "throw it into emergency and pray" when there'd be a bit more of a chance of stopping faster with a full service app where you have the dynamics to help you.
But hopefully Train Dude will see this one and throw out the numbers.
He was reffering to when all the rolling stock was "modified" to reduce speed.
Presumably so that the trips would be more effective, with slower trains? It seems terribly wasteful though. How did they do it? Disable some motors?
It does make sense that these "modifications" have occurred-I mean, I've never rode an R-46 that made it up to 70mph, as they're said to be able to do. And intuitively, given the motor power on alot of 1960's-1970's trains (I'm not sure about the R-62 and R-68), they seem like they should have more pickup in them. The R-143 seems underpowered by contrast, almost, doesn't it, to cars like the R-32?
After the WillyB crash, it was determined that because of the increase in motor horsepower the cars could overrun the signal blocks when operating at full speed.
The signal system was configured to the lower top speeds of the older equipment, which did not have the high horsepower of the newer equipment.
In the WillyB crash, the T/O fell asleep at the controls. The train was running at full speed (including the standard field shunting, which allows the motors to operate at a higher speed) and was tripped by the red signal set by the train in front. Due to the higher speed, the train, now in full emergency, still collided with the train in front.
The NTSB invstigated and ran tests that confirmed that the trains were capable of running faster than the signal system allowed.
NYCT had two choices. 1. Upgrade the signal system to conform with the faster cars. Very expensive with a long-term construction with much disruption. 2. Reduce the top speeds of the cars. Very simple, very cheap.
NYCT went for option 2. The field shunting was disabled, which reduced the top speed of the cars.
When new signalling is installed, is it still being installed for, say, the R-10, and not the R-46, in terms of top speed? Also are the newer trains now ordered with weaker motors?
You can read the NTSB report here.
--Mark
So they pick sections of lines (like the 4,5,6 between 125th street and bowling green)instead of areas/towers (like the M,N,R,and Q at Dekalb ave tower between pacific/atlantic and lawerence street)?
"The French Connection"
will be on AMC tonight at 10 PM. I mention this because of the previous thread on this subject. In it, I claimed to see a version on AMC with one scene (of redbirds on the el during the chase scene) that I had not recalled seeing before.
One person responded and said that there was no such scene on his DVD copy of the movie. And, indeed, he appears to be correct. That scene is not on my DVD either. As a matter of fact, it's not on my VHS copy as well. I've yet to pull out my BETA copy but be sure that I will be watching tonight - to end the mystery once and for all.
French Connection is supposed to be 1 hr & 44 min long.
AMC has programed 1 hr & 55 min. In order for them to get all of their commercials in, they will probably edit the movie.
I wonder when it will be on Turner Classic Movies?
I think it so bad that AMC now has to include commercials in its programming. It was such a great channel to watch, but now..forget it.....it looks more like the other channels.....sorry..I know that last statement was a "non-transit" issue...but it just burns me up the good things have to come to an end like that...
Correction, French Connection is on at 10:25 PM, EST, after "Chinatown". Whatever you hate commercials or want to settle a dispute on the West End line chase sequence, or just smirk and laugh at Frog #1 outwitting Popeye Doyle at GCT, Shuttle platform, enjoy the film anyway.
"Just smirk and laugh at Frog #1 outwitting Popeye Doyle at GCT, Shuttle platform."
I rmember the first time I saw French Connection back in '71. I was at a theatre on Flatbush Ave and Albemarle Rd. (the name escapes me), when Frog #1 outsmarted Popeye. The whole theatre erupted in loud laughter when Frog #1 smirked and waved bye bye while the train was pulling away.
"I don't care how many bartenders you need.......same to you buddy !!!"
Bill "Newkirk"
"I rmember the first time I saw French Connection back in '71. I was at a theatre on Flatbush Ave and Albemarle Rd. (the name escapes me).."
It was the Albermarle, now a Jehova's Witnesses Congregation, the marquee still stands.
"It was the Albermarle, now a Jehova's Witnesses Congregation, the marquee still stands."
Ahh, that was the name. Thanks Kool-D.
Bill "Newkirk"
I liked the part just afterwards as the shuttle pulls into the tunnel. The view on the platform where Popeye throws his hat on the ground in disgust.
And guess which car Frog 1 waves bye-bye from. Why, 6609!
6609, Our precious museum piece, spared from the drudgery and toil of rider car service or the pain of the scrapper's torch.
wayne
"I liked the part just afterwards as the shuttle pulls into the tunnel. The view on the platform where Popeye throws his hat on the ground in disgust."
Of course Frog #1 knew he was being tailed by Popeye. The real pisser is when Frog# 1 puts his cane in the door, the doors reopen, Frog #1 and Popeye step out but Frog #1 steps back in. The scene where Popeye chases the moving train by banging on the door was too much. Gawd I love that scene.
Bill "Newkirk"
one scene (of redbirds on the el during the chase scene) that I had not recalled seeing before.
If you had seen redbirds, you might be thinking of the movie "Popeye Doyle" with Ed O'Neil of "Married...With Children" fame. They were R17 cars painted in the current "redbird" scheme used on the 42 Street Shuttle. You mentioned seeing them on the el, probably R27-30 cars still in the 60's red scheme laying up or snuck into a shot, but I don't recall seeing any during the "chase", except R42 and R32.
"..., but I don't recall seeing any during the "chase", except R42 and R32."
The R42, yes, but the train that was layed up in center track, before the crash (had the correct B train rollsign) was an R38, not an R32. This is from when I last saw the film, open for debate on this issue.
"The R42, yes, but the train that was layed up in center track, before the crash (had the correct B train rollsign) was an R38, not an R32. This is from when I last saw the film, open for debate on this issue"
I'll check on the DVD and get back to you on that.
I just viewed the "chase" scene and there was no R38 present. Aside from the R42, the other cars had blue doors, therefore indicating they were R32's. I don't recall R38's having blue doors. I checked the scene 3 times, no R38's on the el.
When new, the R-38s had unpainted doors on the outside save for a narrow blue band all the way around the car at the belt rail. Their door interiors were identical to the R-32s.
True but I was mentioning the outside of the cars. I remember that blue band, too. I'm guessing it came off with car washing whenever they were washed.
"I don't recall R38's having blue doors."
Some R-38's had blue doors in the late 1970's.
Bill "Newkirk"
I love the movie "The French Connection". It was filmed primarily in my neighborhood, I was an employee of the TA and I personally knew the C/R in the film (Bob Marone). But don't you think that AMC is playing this film to death?
Bob
I spotted a Redbird heading uptown this morning while I was waiting for a downtown 2 or 3 at 34/Penn station this morning. 8903 or 8933 (I forget which) was on the point and the train was signed a 5 at the rear.
I love the 'Birds. So simple and functional.
Thanks for the report! I wish I could have been there.
---Brian
If you spot a train of Redbirds, you gotta greet them the way I do:
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.
Since we're busy making comparisons, let me start another one. Are you a IND fan, IRT aficiando, or a BMT fanatic like me? And why? Let me start the parade if I may. I am a ardent and passionate BMT man and, of course, am the prototype Sea Beach fanatic. However, I have always like the Brighton and West End, just not as much. Of course, we also have the 4th Avenue Local which throws a fly in the ointment, but, what the hell, you can't be perfect. Just ask the IRT and IND fans about that.
I am approximately your age, and relocated to Southern California like you did. Because of my family history, I am a dual contracts man. I loved the BMT Southern Division Expresses as you did (only with Brighton first) because my mother's family was in Sheepshead Bay and Manhattan Beach. I, like you, stayed away from the 4th Ave and Culver locals - too slow and boring.
I did visit my dad's family in the Bronx, and so the IRT Uptown Expresses, both East and West Side, were also a fond memory of my youth. All of my trips started from 46th Street in Sunnyside on the Flushing Line.
By the way, I saw a guy walking in Encino during the Christmas holidays, wearing a black N Train t-shirt. Was that you, or is there another Sea Beach fan in So. Cal?
Gene, it wasn't me. I would have had my Sea Beach cap on as well. Good to know there are other fans of the line out here and since you are a BMT man you stand tall with me. Have a good day.
By the way, the N train was the first BMT train I ever rode on.
The N train was the first subway train I EVER rode on.
Actually, when I was in the womb, I probably rode the N on Queens Blvd (BMT train on IND tracks).
I like the BMT because of its railroad ROW lines like Brighton, Sea Beach and parts of Canarsie and Myrtle. The IRT only has that on the Dyre Avenue line, which is too short and was "someone else's RR". The IND is mostly underground, not a good thing.
IRT all the way.
The IRT was the first subway in NYC. The others came later.
Fred, and all, when I moved to New York in 1966, there were three not very well coordinated divisions BUT they were all THE SUBWAY, Having previously spent much time in Chicago where "unification" dates to WWI, I was interested in the history, but an emotional preference for a failed capitalist enterprise? Unification in NY occurred several years before I was born. I was and still am pleased and impressed by the vision and engineering qualities of the IND with its PRR like junctions, the cavernous stations, the generous mezzanines, and provisions for expansion. The latter are analagous to the Chicago subway tunnels which were concurrently built with bellmouths for the future. As a kid they were mysteries, as an adult the boarded off extra sataiwells--now removed--at 2nd Ave. were again a mystery. OTOH who cannot enjoy the mosaics of the older stations--how glorious that they are being returned to view.
Now that the B Division is pretty much integrated--imperfectly as it may be--I am more concerned with service quality, station rehab, and route expansion.
I was interested in the history, but an emotional preference for a failed capitalist enterprise?
I will take issue with that statement if only to state that it was not a failed capitalist enterprise. It was never given a fair chance by a government hell-bent on municipal operation virtually from the beginning. No enterprise could succeed given the hostile political atmosphere the BMT was subjected to.
I love the B.M.T. so much that I created a website dedicated to it - BMT-Lines.com
NO private rapid transit corporation has survived the realities of capital costs/fares/wages etc. You may be correct that Hylan accelerated the failure, but Chicago Rapid Transit PTC/PRT/PSTC, and all other private transit systems in the US AFAIK, went belly or were taken over to preserve service. The argument that if the fares had been raised simply does not wash. We have an economy in which MOST costs are "externalized" and almost nothing you buy or rent has what a linertarian would call true pricing. The disconnect between actual cost and prices customers are willing or can afford to pay, has a long history across democratic/authoritarian socialist/capitalist lines dating back to at least Imperial Roman times.
Please understand that I treasure several mainline RR's of the past particularly for their fabulous passenger trains, but the reality is they could not afford to run them in the context of the times. There is not a single "Hylan" or "Moses" to blame for the death of the Zephyrs, the Super Chief or the 20th Century Ltd but the economics were similar.
"I love the B.M.T. so much that I created a website dedicated to it - BMT-Lines.com "
And a very comprehensive site it is Jim.
It still doesn't change me from an IRT fan but it is a nice site.
Hey T, don't get too bent out of shape. I'm actually surprised it took "Che" Vartinoff that long to respond with his usual mantra of socialist babble. Don't sweat it, Dave is really an ok guy, just far, far, far to the left of us. But you are very right about what you say. The powers-that-be wanted very badly to put transit under their thumb.
And I have enjoyed your website immensely. Thank you.
IND against my will. I dislike its architecture, its origin, its subterranean quality. But my geographic is with the Bronx, and any "regluing" of the system depends on the IND -- it's the most pervasive, and it's train width provides the most flexibility. Like most things New York, you take a lot of bad with the good. Thank goodness for the Smith-9th station and Jerome Line to keep my head in the clouds.
Uh...do I have to spell it out for ya? :)
Similar to BMTman, look at my handle. : - )
As a railfan, the IND is special to me because the Queens Boulevard Lines (E,F) were the first ones where I stood at the front window and enjoyed all the various sights; the IND has the long express runs in Queens and Manhattan (as well as along Fulton St, Brooklyn, and, less frequently, along the Concourse and Culver Lines); and the R1-9 equipment (I didn't get the chance to ride the Standards much).
As a train operator, in addition to getting a daily thrill out of operating in places I used to railfan, I enjoy the lines in the B Division that have lots of outdoor trackage, and I appreciate the longer station platforms, where one does not have to be as precise in making station stops as the IRT Lines require - simply one less issue to think about while moving trains. : - )
I will not claim the IND is "better" than the others: in reading the other postings, what we all share in common is our earliest railfan experiences influenced our preference. "Vive la differance!"
Did you have to go French on us Tony? Please not now. Anyway, it sounds to me like you have some very pleasant memories of the IND so you're bias is certainly justified. Enjoy. I would probably have been a motorman had my family not moved west in 1954. If I couldn't be a big league ballplayer I wanted to operate a subway car-----needless to say which one.
I knew from the get-go that you were in our BMT camp Doug, but I had no clue what the make-up was for most of the others. I'm getting a real eye and earful now. Go BMT!
AND you are also the Cyclone-Man < grin >
Hay it runs on rails, so it's on-topic :-)
Sea Beach and the Cyclone? Sounds like a double dip of fun to me. And, yes, they both run on tracks.
So what you want to ride an N-train rollercoaster with slant-R40 cars? Or do you want to ride a rollercoaster down the Sea Beach Line at top speed?
Hey D-22, either way it sounds like a blast to me. One thing, though. If I did either gig I would have to be riding up front; I always want that front seat because then all the action is in front of me.
I think Fred would rather ride on a train of Triplexes on the Cyclone.:)
I guess have traditionally been a BMT man, not to be confused with "THE BMTman".
My favorite Manhattan trunk lines are the Broadway Line and the Nassau Line. I love the Broadway/Jamaica El, and what's left of the Myrtle El.
Over the last few years I have been sort of having an "affair" with the IRT, and slowly liking it more and more. I love the Lexington line south of Grand Central. The line that I used to hate as a kid (the Broadway-7th Ave Line) is slowly moving up on my list, almost to the point of being my favorite IRT line. Strange how your opinions change over the years.
I'm still a BMT man, but the IRT is slowly eroding that.
Now catch yourself before the erosion is impossible to stop. Just say BMT fifty times in a row five times a day and you'll be ok.
I'd say I'm partial to the Queens Blvd IND, but for what reason I guess I still don't know. I like the simple, clean tilework of the IND stations. Smith-9 provides a nice view of lower Manhattan.
Second favorite after that comes the Broadway BMT, although I still don't approve of the designs at the local stations. At the top is the Astoria el. Again, nice view of Manhattan from most locations.
So I guess I'm just a B division man with no loyalty to either side.
Aw come on Piasan, stop beating around Robin Hood's barn, give me an effort. Take a stand. You'll feel better for it.
I am IND all the way, due to family considerations. As you know my paternal grandfather was one of the designers of the Concourse IND.
My maternal grandfather was a conductor on the IRT (3rd Ave. El, to be specific), but I never liked the IRT. Too claustrophobic, for my tastes.
I do not know enough about the BMT to comment on it.
Also, My birthday is the same as yours 10/27, minus 15 years. We all know the significance of that date.
Peace,
ANDEE
10/27, minus 15 years. We all know the significance of that date.
Remind us what's so significant about 10/27.
On October 27th, 1904 the IRT opened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Did you get Andee's post. Come on now, don't forget that date again. I happened to have been born on October 27, 1940. Transpose 1940 into 1904 and, walla, is it any wonder that three thousand miles away I'm still a fanatic for the Sea Beach and the New York Subway?
Hey Andee, be grateful for those minus 15 years. They'll come in very handy down the road. As for 10-27, it makes we wonder why we weren't friends from the get-go. Oh well, I probably said something about the Yankees or the Bronx and put my foot in my mouth. BTW, I am really going to explore Arthur Avenue when I get to New York again. I think June might be a good time.
I'm an IRT-er.
For me, the IND comprised of my actual first subway ride back in 1985-86 when my mom was pregnant with me. She used the Queens Blvd IND to get back and forth between our house and work, so I guess that makes me IND all the way!
Personally, I have a soft spot for Path.
-Robert King
BMT, definatley.
I always preferred the BMT. I grew up with the L and M trains at Halsey St and Myrtle/Wyckoff, and now I live near the J train and Broadway Junction. I sort of have a thing for the IRT lines that don't exist anymore, such as the 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els, but that part of me also finds interest in the late Culver and Myrtle Av Els. Besides, I'm only 15, so I've never actually been on any of them. The IND is boring, with all stations looking alike, and is full of R44's through R68's which have no railfan window. My favorite train ride used to be the M, when it was express on 4th Ave, but now its local and keeps getting stuck behind R and W trains. My favorite train, now, is the Z (over the J, because my stops are Chauncey and Norwood, both Z stops). I also feel they should try to find a way to run more than 6 Z trains. This only lasts a little over an hour, and rush hour is 3 hours long.
I am surprised by your choice. Your Handle made me think that your preference would have been the IND. Could you explain The "D" in "DTrain22"?
My name is "Dante". I couldn't think of anything else.
Thanks for the clarification.
Bob
Im a IND fan, and BMT fanatic, mostly IND, I represent the A/C Lines up in Brooklyn. And the L Line with the BMT.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I'm originally a BMT fanatic (I used to work the Southern lines religiously, hence my handle), but since I now primarily work the A and C lines, the IND has my heart now.
No offense to the IRT fans, but I always thought of the the IRT as a simple, Mickey Mouse railroad, although it sports some of the best mosaics in it's stations. And I've always enjoyed the 7 line the best out of the whole IRT; the line is mostly outside and the high I experienced riding on the Flushing Express at the railfan window, particularly at 111th Street when we were way up in the air, compared to no other.
My handle says it all. IND all the way, although the BMT is a very close second.
Dance with the one that brung ya, or in this case, go with the line(s) that first got you interested in railfanning.
Since I lived on the east side of Manhattan, and my first regular trips on the subway were weekends to the World's Fair in 1964-65, I'm partial to the IRT (and the WF Bluebirds in particular), though I was close enough to the Canarsie line so that there was something charming in those old BMT standards and their three-person front/back facing seats, even if they did have funny middle doors and nothing happened when you pressed the buttons in-between...
Gee, and I thought I was the only guy who pressed the buttons on the middle doors.
My feeling was, if you're goimg to put the damn buttons at eye level to a 9-year old, they ought to at least do something when you press them. Disabling the buttons on the Standards was probably some sadistic trick some BMT design engineer created in 1912 or so for New York City's youths to endure for almost three generations. :-)
Well kind of a BMT and IRT man. I like em' because they have some history, nice mosiacs and they get out of the tunnels at times. I don't really hate the IND but you don't see much except the stations and the trackworkers enterances. I think the IND has some good points: the lines have less curves thus the trains can go faster; the cars (like the BMT) are wider than the IRT thus can handle more passengers; and usually have four tracks which can handle express and local trains in both directions (compared to the 3 track els which only can handle expresses in only one direction).
Sorry Fred, IRT fan. But my true love is for the WMATA, especially the "A route" :-)
Inspite of my Handle, my love is the IND. I grew up on it. My childhood home station was 168th Street-Washington Heights. I have always loved the arnines and eventually the R-10s. Although I love the Red Birds on the #4 line which is near my house (the reason for my Handle), I usually take the 'D' to head downtown unless I am specifically going down to the east side.)
I can still remember many of my childhood impressions, e.g. looking out the rear window of an AA local at the sharp drop off leaving the 163rd Street Station; being on an AA uptown local pulling in to my home station and have my train couple up to the train in front of it (before the doors opened) and be turned into a BB rush hour local; wondering why the A express had so many yellow signals in front of it going up and down Central Park West when there was a long time since the previous train (I eventually learned about Time Signals); standing at the 81st - Natural History Museum Station and watching and hearing the uptown express come roaring through.
I used to ride the IRT to my grandmother's house in The Bronx (when we did not take the trolley cars), but it always seemed kind of old and dark and dingee. We would change from the downtown Broadway - 7th Avenue Express to an uptown 7th Avenue Express at 96th Street. I did eventually discover the Lexington Avenue Express - wow did it fly especially the run from 86th Street to 42nd Street -- at that time, there was no 59th Street Station on the Lexington Avenue express.
To me, as a kid, the BMT was so slow. The only time I would take it was when my family went out to Coney Island - we had to change at 34th Street and 6th Avenue - this was prior to Christie Street and the Culver connection.
Ummm... Last I heard, the three separate systems had consolidated - over 50 years ago! - to form a unified system. At the risk of having to apologize for living in the PRESENT, make my claim as an NYCT man!!
There, I said it. :-)
A division or B division?
Feel better?
I'm split on this one. My soul is with the IRT, having taken my first independent rides on the subway on the (1) back in 1987. Since I now live in Queens,and since I have always had ties to Queens via family members, it is natural that I have an affinity for the (7). But as for my feet, they tend towards the closest line, which is the (F). That would make me an IND man.
:-) Andrew
As I form my opinions by the older equipment the divisions had I have to say for me its a combination of the BMT and IND. When I started railfanning in the 60's the BMT still had Standards & Q-cars. Although as a toddler in the 50's I probably rode on Triplexes I was too young to remember them, I probably confused them with the arnines as there was a distinct similarity. I do remember seeing laid up triplexes in Sheepshead Bay when ever we passed the Brighton on the Belt Pkway. We usually took the Belt on weekend trips and that's when they usually laid up trains then.
As a very young kid we never really rode the Eastern Division so I never rode the multis or the BMT specialty cars but I'm sure I would have liked them.
As far as the IND was concerned I always considered the R1-9's as the Perfect subway car. Four doors on each side, great seating arrangement, (although I thought the Standard's 2 and 3 person seats a tad better) excellent destination signs, and great sounds and smells! They could have made the windows on the doors a little bigger though, like the 4 windows per door on the Standards and triplexes.
I didn't start riding the IRT until one of my grandmothers moved near the Newkirk & Nostrand Station in the late 60's. The IRT seemed so bland then. The Low V's were gone (other than 3rd Av in the Bronx) and sorry, redbird fans, I hated the cars that replaced them. From what I could see I think the Low & High V's were pretty much bland too. I probably would have liked the IRT more if I was railfanning in the times of the Manhattan Els.
My preference is the BMT, mainly due to the elevated lines.
--Mark
I'm an IND man, but an IRT fan. Perhaps I'd feel differently if it were not for the fact than the Culver and the Crosstown are the only two IND lines without express service, and I live on the Culver.
I'll take the IRT crowding -- Lex at rush hour excepted -- to get that frequent service and express trains.
I grew up near an IRT line. I went to HS using a BMT line and these days I live near an IND line. I've no preference.
I grew up near an IRT line. I went to HS using a BMT line and these days I live near an IND line. I've no preference.
I just have no preference as to whether it's the speed of the Lexington Ave Express (IRT), the tiling and identity of the Independent Subway System (IND) or the historical significance of the BMT, IM JUST A SUBWAY AND TRAIN BUFF IN THE HEART AND SOUL OF ME.
But, put it this way, I'm a Brighton Line type of person. And I just despise and hate that ugly line somewhere running between Bay Ridge, through Bensonhurst and Gravesend towards Coney Island. And to add insult to injury, that no-name line doesn't run to Coney Island at this time. It also has too many imitations of my old station: Parkside Ave before the REAL Parkside Ave got an renovation back in 1993-94.
The Brighton line is also my favorite overall line. Good scenery, nice mix of enbankment, open cut and elevated infrastructure. Plus SPEED on that express run. My only problem is that the express, not the local, has to terminate at Brighton Beach.
The express terminates at Brighton Beach because it is more efficient to have the express and local run independent of each other, otherwise they will have to cross each other at Brighton Interlocking. The next best thing to do is to wait for the local at Sheepshead Bay in order to continue your trip to CI (which I have BAD news for Fred about Stillwell reconstruction in the next post.)
the tiling and identity of the Independent Subway System (IND)
I like the mosaics of the BMT and the IRT better, but I do sort of like the tiles at the IND stations also. The tilework is kind of cool in it's own simplicity. I especially like the little IND repeating stations names over and over along the walls.
Ahem, Brighton trains don't go to Coney Island either.
They can't even reach the one remaining platform at Stillwell.
Sea Beach trains can get to that platform if necessary. They did this past weekend. They will again this coming weekend. Brighton trains will have to wait until next year.
The through-track to allow Brighton Line trains access to CIYD was taken away?
--Mark
No, it's still there, but if a Q train with passengers stopped there and opened its doors, many thuds would result.
Sea Beach and West End trains can reach the one remaining platform at Stillwell. Brighton and Culver trains can't.
Just thought I'd throw the question out to the Philadelphia subtalkers out there. I ride MFL everyday, but I like the Broad Street Subway better, despite the dilapidated state of a lot of the stations. Why? I like it because it's less familiar, the cars are so agressively orange, it has express service, and the seats are easily-cleaned plastic instead of the perpetually grungy fabric of the MFL cars. Other than the seats, I really like the MFL M4s, but I like the big orange Kawasakis better.
Mark
Yeah, the BSS is nice, pretty quiet and all, not like the MFL's grinding bouncing ride. Do the Subway Surface cars count? I really prefer the ride of the Kawasaki cars in the tunnel.
I like riding the Subway-Surface Catrs. I usually ride the 13 from Church La. and Chester Av to Juniper. The surface ride on the 13 is neat with all the twists and turns . Then the ride through the tunnel is fun, from 40th st. inbound.
I agree the MFL seats are really in bad shape, they should replace them with non-fabric material. The BSS is not a bad ride, either. The operator has to really work at the center island stations. Up , out of the seat and over to the far side to open and close the doors.
Chuck Greene
I'm an weekly SEPTA BSS Line rider, because I take it from City Hall to Pattison Avenue (to attend events at the Sports Complex). And, I have to say that the Orange Cars are very interesting. The reason I say that, is that everything about that type of Subway Car is so different from the other subway cars in America, from the positing of the seats and how long the cars are. I just love the heck of 'em. One thing, i hate about the MFL, i would change, is to try to change the MFL cars more like the BSS Line Cars, instead of Orange, Blue.
I'm a MFSE fan and a BSS fan. I like the Market-Frankford Line for the photographic opportunities (since much of it is elevated) and for the excellent railfan window opportunities.
I like the Broad Street Subway because the express trains are FAST (the first SubTalk SEPTA excursion group saw the speedometer hit 63 mph) on a Ridge Ave Express (while under Broad Street), and simply because I enjoy riding on subway trains. The view out the front is not amenable to taking pictures unless you are lucky enough to get a cab ride (thanks to SubTalker Isaac Shomer).
So I really don't play "favorites"; I like them all, including the subway surface and the Media/Sharon trolleys, not to mention the P&W (Norristown High-Speed line).
I'm a BMT fan for a few reasons.
1. Diversity. Above ground, below ground, El, open cuts.
2. Age. Some sections of the BMT date back to the 1800's.
3. Speed. Many lines, like the 60th Street tunnel lines, go very fast.
4. Historical value. The fact that the BMT is basically a combination of different old rail companies is cool.
IRT comes next, and then the IND.
I'm IRTskee Komaraden!!!! Today was 'propulsky'....two R142 cars in series for service. I walk the ten pack for troubles five times a day and when i get an assignment like propulsion, very grateful for two linked IRT cars. The time and distance in going around the cars and opening everything underneath can kill you, especially if your cars were another twenty five feet longer in legnth. I miss the short trainsets from when i was a kid...they could get two or maybe three on a platform. CI Peter
Yo grampa ... maybe you should requisition one of those "rascal scooter" thingies. Battery propulsky. You fixum good. :)
Hey geezer: I may be licensed as a radio operator for more than thirty years of record but NOT ready for a battery powered 'half a wheelchair.' Crews call me 'Inspector Gadget' because of the special tools I always carry that make fixing R142 'pinball machines' easy work. I don't need another year of flak if I were to bring in my longboard scooter (clocked at 35 MPH + on Lexington Avenue.) Would be really neat to scoot down the aisle with fifty pounds of tools but there is one problem: olde drainage holes catch everyones mechanics seats and knock them on ye olde ass. Imagine writing up THAT G-2 !!!
Safety tip of the day: Always wear personal protection equipment when working within the perimeter of the blue safety line OR BE CHEWED OUT BY SUPERVISION!!!!! (I like to wear my safety helmet sideways like Napoleon because it supports air flow.) Eeeees propulsky...eees goodsky. Ammonia and alcohol. Juiskey.
Heh. OK, we'll chip in and get you a rascal when you transfer over to B division carbodsky shoppe. Let you modify it for proper wheelbase and flanges. Make you do like an old timer at CIY in my day who used to get around with a chickenstick and a spare truck with a lawn chair mounted at the bolster pin. :)
You know that guy???? A REAL Car Inspector from Coneys Island who never had a motor truck returned. I will propose to CED that the next years car rodeo offers 'chicken stick races.' Not much differnt
from the service car at Branford....just 'reach out and touch 600 VDC.' Of course, no brakes. Who needs stinkin brakes....we don have no stinking brakes. Little Rascals 'Free Wheeling' was a classic...like bumping R142s in the yard.
That was the guy ... though he was pretty close to retirement in 1971 so I suspect the guy I met is long gone. He had a hell of a touch though - he could get himself within ten feet of where he wanted to be with just a touch of the witching stick, no brakes needed. He gave me an arc and sparc demo one afternoon. Guy was NUTS! :)
And no, the guys told me that when he cleaned commutators or did a rewind, the only time the motor came back was if it got crushed in a wreck. He'd break out his can opener and fix it again. Heh.
I'll sum it up easily for you Fred. I was born a BMT Baby at Coney Island Hospital, an Insane IND Teen while living in Carroll Gardens. Now, I'm an Irrate IRT Adult on the Upper East Side. So you can say that I'm all three.
:D
Fred,
What yaw want me to say, other then I'm two days senior to you.
Heving resided 60 of the 62 in the "Garden Spot Of The World",
now "Krakow On The East River" and with two stations of the
only train not servicing Manhattan, the "GG". O.K., I said it.
At least your #4 AKA "N" may someday return to C.I. Our service
for the better part of the day, has to TERMINATE at CSQ for the V.
It's a damn phocking shame, that the current breed of JOE COLLEGES
and their DAMNED COMPUTERS, can't seem to run three lines on the
same trackage on QUEENS BOULEVARD. The BRT/BMT MEN are rolling over
in their graves, wondering these are our children & grandchilden.
Where in the HELL did we go wrong???????
8-) ~ Sparky
(that the current breed of JOE COLLEGES
and their DAMNED COMPUTERS, can't seem to run three lines on the
same trackage on QUEENS BOULEVARD)
Blame it on the lawyers, not the engineers. NYCT clearly does not want the liability of a passenger ending up on a train in a relay (or worse yet, in the yard).
Actually, blame it on sympathetic juries. I can see the plaintiff's lawyer bemoaning how NYCT didn't take even a minimum semblance of care to keep the poor "victim" from the horrible trauma of being stranded on a train in the middle of nowhere. Surely the poor victim deserves lots of bucks for pain and suffering!
PS. Generally I'm not so anti-plaintiff, but in this case I can really see certain lawyers having a field day if NYCT didn't make every possible effort to get people off the train.
Hey Sparky, I get the picture. Remember this, though. My Sea Beach has been also pounded and pilfered out of its annointed rounds. No Stillwell, no Manny B, no Broadway Express. I can only hope that in 2004 things change for the better. The N deserves a lot better than the cards that were dealt to it.
Fred, you will have Manny-B in 2004, BUT Stillwell may have to wait until 2005. Remember, only 3 of the 4 platforms will be completed by May, 2004, but the W platform (Tracks 7 and 8) must be done, so the W may have to use YOUR tracks 1 and 2 for several months.
Fred,
I hear you. How about this for the 'N' in 2005. From Stillwell Ave.,
Coney Island to Jamaica ~ 179th Street via Fourth Avenue Express,
Broadway Express, 63rd Street tunnel, Queens Boulevard Express.
Send the 'R' back to Astoria, 24/7. The 'W' would replace it as
the Queens Boulevard Local, less frequently, from Continental
Avenue to Whitehall Street. Gives room on QB for a variety of services
including Brooklyn~Queens Crosstown 24\7. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I can't speak for Fred, but I'm guessing he doesn't want his Sea Beach going past 57th, and he certainly doesn't want it going through IND territory. (Of course, nowadays it could be said to go through IRT territory in Queens, if you go waaaaaaaaay back.)
:-) Andrew
If I had my druthers Mr. K I would prefer it terminate at either Times Square, 42nd Street or 57th. However, Sparky has thrown my a pitch right down the middle---Express and Express, and if that is what it takes to make my train and express again I have to say ok. Can you come up with a better plan? I'm all ears. Just get it on the Manny B, out of the Montague rathole and make it an express and I am putty in your hands.
The N train will NEVER terminate at Times Square, but having the N express is an excellent idea, one I hope to see pretty soon.
Fred,
I tried to pick a scheme that would pacify both of our needs, but
your Sea Beach has to come to IND Queens territory and I gets my
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown back to Queens Boulevard 24\7 also.
What the hey, it isn't no wilder then some of the other plans
that have emerged on this board. Spread the routings about for
a variety of services on Queens Blvd. with E, F & N expresses and
G, V, W locals. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Oh Sparky, you are a work of art. Express? Oh, I love it. Count me in. I hope it includes the bridge as well. Never thought about Jamaica but, yes, that would be fine. However, it is too good a plan for the TA to adopt. They would get all confused and fuzzy minded about it. Keep up the good work. The Greenpoint Gremlin has struck again.
Fred,
If my responses seem a bit dated, I'm about eight hours behind
reading all the current posts, so excuse. And they aren't "Political"
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Send the 'R' back to Astoria, 24/7
PLEASE - Keep the ^&%&^** "R" away from Astoria!!!
Sorry Guy,
But the BMTs step child the #2 AKA (RR) AKA (R) belongs back
on its original route Astoria to 95th Street, Brooklyn. Why even after unification of the BMT Lines, they need the IND arones to operate on the #2 Fourth Avenue Local. Send the Q via the bridge & then to Astoria via Broadway Express from Brighton Beach. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Anyone have any updated information as to when the Airtrain from Howard Beach is going to begin operations?
Any idea as to when operations will start from Jamaica?
The PA webpage has no information.
The JFK Loop was suppose to have already been running in November 2002 if that accident hadn't happened. Howard Beach in 2003, Jamaica in early 2004. This was the last I heard and maybe be different/ahead/behind schedule.
Airtrain's on HOLD. Please stay tuned to this channel for further developments...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We now return you to our scheduled commercials, now in progress...
-Robert King
lol.
Peace.
ANDEE
They're making significant progress on the Jamaica terminal construction (they're putting in the framework for the roof), but that's all I know.
OK, for St. Patricks Day, now we'll tak about something green.
Does anyboby know about the R-10's, R-21/22's & 12 R-33's painted green in the mid-'80s?
Ok, how about the trunk line colors on the Lexington Ave and Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Lines?
OR, How about:
All stations on the G line from Carroll St, Brooklyn, to Court Square.
Continental and 75th Aves, QBL
Beverley Road, Brighton Line
Bedford Park Blvd and 205th st/Concourse Line
West 4th st (both levels), 14th and 23rd sts./IND 6th Ave line
Happy Saint Patrick's Day!!
Smith-9th Street is also a Green family station, the small tablets have green tile. And 4th Avenue techincally is a green family station too, the directional signs pointing to the BMT LINES are green.
wayne
No, but I have a photo of a GREEN Lo-V
From what I understand, the R-10 green scheme was developed by a Russian immigrant.
Happy St. Patricks Day!
Peace,
Mc ANDEE
Correct -- Vladimir Beryozkin of Car Equipment (at least at the time -- don't know if he's still there).
David
To all Irish SubTalkers: Happy Belated St. Patty's Day!
Erin Go Brah (less). :)
Kiss me, I'm French. :)
Sure do! I always thought this was a better color than the red they eventually used:
Sorry guys, i know this is an old topic...i finally got around to installing it over the weekend...VERY cool...but has anyone built any subway layouts for this(or are there any other cool add-ons i should know about)???
email me off-line if you want.
thanks
Jeremy
Well They are working on the NYC Subway for MSTS (Microsoft Train Simulator)now, and the Culver Route is claimed to be at 99% and supposed to be released back in January, but I don't know what happen, they do have a program called BVE which you can operate NYC Subway Routes and trainsets, check the routes and etc. at my website. If you need additional information, just post back and I will gladly help you.
-AcelaExpres2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling Here!
I could definitely use some help! I remember going to your site, but i don't know how to get it to interact.
Also, have any users run into a situation in the Northeast Corridor short passenger run where it derails 2 min and 59 sec into the simulation every time? even if derail is not enabled? (i can certainly take this thread off-line if its desired.
Nah I never got that derailment.
You need to download the BVE Program first before you can use the routes, its as simple as clicking right here to download the BVE program.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
tried downloading the N (with an r32 trainset) and the 7 (with an r36) - can't get it to work.
is there a readme file somewhere on where to extract the zip files to?
Did you download the BVE Program?
yes, downloaded and installed it...first.
what folder do i extract the zipped files to?
It's certain routes you must extract files into, Tell you what you can e-mail a more experienced person (my friend) and ask him for help, and I will do something with the routes so they can automatically install itself with no problem, I have that type of program on my PC.
Here's he's E-Mail:
OneilPhantom909@aol.com
And Tell him BKBALLER5465 sent you, he knows it's me.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I bought this: http://www.raildriver.com It really makes operations realistic! I can now even get Acela Express to run from Philly to DC without derailing :-)
I thought about purchasing that, hey did you download the new NEC v4 from train-sim.com and the realistic Acela Express?
I have NEVER had the Acela, or any other train in MSTS for that matter, derail.
Go into the options menu at startup and turn off derailments, and it eliminates the derailments caused by the MSTS inherent screw-ups, of which there are all too many.
He Did say that the Derailments were off.
I remeber him saying he was doing a "short-run" simulation. Turning off the derailment option works only while exploring the route, not the actual simulation. Otherwise you're cheating yourself on actual train operation. I can't remeber which one he was doing, but I never had problems with derailments. Usually, I run slightly below the required speed and never had a problem.
Typo here
"remember"
I run at about 1 mph slower than the speed limit.
I run at or above the speed limit.
I have Microsoft train simulator on my PC. About speed I usually go a few miles below the speed limit.
You're not cheating anything by turning the derailments off in your options menu. Microsoft and Kuju did such a shitty job on MSTS that some routes have spots where trains derail for absolutely NO reason at all.Trains uncouple for absolutely no reason at all.
Besides, it's just a freakin' game. I don't live my life pretending to be some train engineer when I play with MSTS, no more than I am a pilot when I used to dabble with FS2000. I've given up on it a long time ago.
I tried the Flight Simulator 2002 version. I gave up trying to fly that 747 out of JFK, LGA, and Luis Munoz Marin Airport in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Sold it to a friend for $20 even though I paid $50 for it.
There was Roundhouse add-on for MSTS, but it was kind of crappy. They had the simulator for the Chicago Els, but the majority of routes were incomplete. The only legitimate terminals were Cottage Grove, Ashland-63, and Kimball.
That "Roundhouse" add-on program by Abacus Software is a complete rip-off.
You canget everything in that package absolutely free from the file libraries at www.train-sim.com
I am planning a trip with American Pig to go to Oyster Bay and Back via the LIRR. We will be taking the 10:48 train out of Jamacia arriving OB at 11:46 and then probably taking the 1:46 Shittle back to Mineola and then Jamacia. This gives us 2 hours for lunch and exploration. After that I plan to get to the G train to visit a friend at Pratt University. All who wish to attend are welcome.
Have fun trying to find anything to do in Oyster Bay for 2 hours >:)
For a start, try finding both turntables in the area.....
Is Oyster Bay a dump? I was in New York 2 1/2 years ago and parked my car in Oyster Bay to railfan the LIRR. Some of the homes in the area looked runned down, and there was a ton of litter in the parking lot. I take it not to many commuters use this station since the parking lot was nearly empty, and the ride is way too long to travel the 35+ miles to Penn Station.
I was just there today. I was only around the park area for an hour. I saw the old station house, it now has a tarp on the roof. Inside the former waiting room, there was some lights on. As for the houses, I really didn't pay any attention to them. I saw the pieces of Engine 35 the same way I saw them a few weeks ago. I looked at the bay and the beach the tide was low.
>>>Is Oyster Bay a dump? <<<
Guess so, after all he did say they were going to take the shittle.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, the area by the station is kinda run down, the town which is about a 10 min walk away offers some more stores. I like the strip mall thats down south on Pine Hollow Rd.
I believe I heard that the Oyster Bay station itself now has a tarp draped over it. The station was handed over to the Engine 35 group I believe for use as part of the museum they have planned there, and there was some sort of a dispute about who is "allowed" to fix the roof. I don't know the whole story, but I think it has something to do about MTA union workers or something.
I was there back in January of last year. Not much to do there-you can see Loco 35's parts sitting there unless they placed it back together again. Other than that just a bunch of prehistoric houses there-not many places to eat at all. The only 2 places ot eat there are either a deli or a small pizza place.
And most of the time I was photographing trains entering and leaving the station for a class that I was taking.
Hope this helps you out-have fun.
#406 LIRR
Well, we should short turn and catch the 12:17 train back, but when where do we eat lunch?
If you guys haven't done the Port Washington branch yet...
Take the 12:17 back down to Roslyn (arrive 12:43). Catch the N23 Bus toward Manorhaven (leaves Roslyn LIRR at 12:45, 1:15, etc.) and get off at the Port Washington LIRR (arrives 1:07, 1:37, etc.).
There are plenty of places eat near the Port Washington station. Trains leave PW for Woodside and Penn on the :10 and :40's. You can take the 7 from Woodside to 45 Road and use the MetroCard transfer to catch your G train.
CG
Hmm, that's a good idea!
Actually, the Port Wahington Branch is a really cool line even though it's only M1's. Actually, I railfanned it by car (kind of ironic), but it's the easiest way to railfan it and take it all in. It has many nice station buildings, and the Manhasset Viaduct is spectacular. The problem is that you really miss all that when you are on the train (well not the viaduct, but you get what I mean). When you are driving, you can take in each station, and photograph if you like. I only rode the line once, and that was on one of the old diesel trains (well that's another story), but it is one of the more interesting LIRR electric-only lines.
It all depends on the kind of railfanning one is in the mood for. If you are into taking in infastructure, and photographing trains, a car is actually better. If one is in the mood for a cool ride on the train without the things mentioned above, of course the train is better.
Ok, since none of you could guess the location, here is a lighter version of the image. If you still can't get it I have a different angle that makes it all but obvious.
It somewhere on the LIRR, im guessing.
.....Valley Furnture.....Z100 (radio)
Somewhere is Philly, knowning where Mike is from.
I think the sign says "Roman Jelley Furniture". A google search only has one thing for Roman Jelley, and it seems to be directions for some place in NJ. But I doubt that much of NJ gets Z100, so that kinda narrows it down.
I can't guess anything more specific then eastern NJ. Am I close?
Somewhere near Edison (I see an Edison Park and Ride sign on the right)
-Harry
Over 3000 High Quality NYC Subway Photos
Somewhere near Edison (I see an Edison Park and Ride sign on the right)
The Edison in the sign probably refers to the name of the parking lot operator, not the city of Edison.
I'm gonna guess somewhere near Harold or the Sunnyside yards.
People keep guessing this. How would I get there at that time of night to take those pictures? BTW I replaced the photo with a sharper one.
The key to IDing this photo is locating where the furniture store is in the bottom of the picture.
Is it on the Amtrak Hell Gate line near Astoria? Or North Philadelphia?
i say edison/woodbridge line near metropark. there is the edison tower in background.
It's just south of Newark Penn Station.
CG
DING DING DING! You win a gold star. Did you just know or did you need the hints? What tipped you off.
I didn't look at any of the hints. I just knew this from having stared blankly out the window so many times. I was surprised nobody else had gotten it before me -- but this is a heavily NYC and LI dominated bunch. I lived in NJ along the NEC for about three years in the early 90's -- so I spend many a morning sitting on trains waiting near that spot for track space to open up at Newark.
Very good! However, in railroad terminology, it's just "west" of Newark Penn Station. There is no "north/south" on any of NJ Transit or on Amtrak in these parts.
"There is no north/south" on any of NJ Transit"
Correction. The Atlantic City line uses a North/South designation. All other lines use East/West.
Oops! You got me there! I always forget about that line! They even use different ticket stock over there, they want to be completely different.
A home signal wouldn't have a label, but since interlocking rules at Swift are only on 1,2 and 3 trks, the signal on 4 trk would be 97 auto.
First, this is Newark Penn which is located w/in DOCK interlocking, not SWIFT. Second, home signals may not have a number plate, but they are labeled. The ones in the pic are the 124R and 122R signals.
I posted my answer on the other thread. A double posting?
Well you got it right, but someone answered before you.
Is the #6 train all R142 now ? How many trainsets is Pelham assigned ?
How comprehensive a shop is Pelham ? Is it more so than Corona ?
Is the #6 train all R142 now ?
Yes, and has been for a while now. Haven't seen an R62 on the 6 in 9 months.
"Haven't seen an R62 on the 6 in 9 months."
It's quite possible that all the R62s are gone now, but I'm positive I saw R62s on the #6 in late fall last year. -Nick
There aren't any 62s in Westchester Yard, except when they do foreign washes.
Yes, Pelham shops are MUCH MORE comprehensive than Corona is. I'd tend to think Corona is last in modern technology.
Actually Weschester Yard is all R 142A
Nothin' but R-142's. Not a redbird in sight.
Interesting to see the R-12 or R-14 work cars. Did R-12s or R-14s (or even R-15s) ever run on the 6?
Yes, they did. When the Flushing line got the R33WF/36WF cars, the R12/14 and R15s went to the mainline. The #6 got quite a number of them. They stayed until the R62s came along in the 1980's
Ah OK, I never recalled seeing any R-12/R-14/R-15s on the 6 during the 70s, maybe they worked that line in the 60s when I wasn't paying attention that much. In the 70s (up to 1976 when I moved from NY) I remember the following assigned to the 6:
R-17s 6800-6899
R-26s 7800-7859
R-28s 7860-7899
R-29s 8570-8599
R-33s 9200-9305
(There may have been some 9100s assigned also).
I'm sure they did, but the R17 is best known as predominating on the #6 at that time. The R12/14/15's coming from Flushing in 1964/5 seemed to have showed up more on the #1/2/4 lines.
Nothin' but R-142's. Not a redbird in sight.
Amen, amen amen, amen. Not a Redbird in sight. Twenty left RTO #5
Juice last week they said 40 Cars now we are down to 20. I guess the #5 will meet the April deadline to be 100% R142.
30 of the 58 R-33 Cars with overhauled trucks went into storage at Concourse Yard recnently, to be held on reserve, not reefed.
There should still be 28 Redbirds at the 239th St. One pair, 8996-97, had been pulled to the refuse train for a couple of days.
Speaking of the devil, another R-142 set has gone into service, train #37, 7046-50 and 7131-35. There should be at least two more sets to enter service.
The entry of 7146-55 and 6806-10 and 6886-90 will bring the 5 up to 390 cars, the same amount as the 2 currently.
-Stef
30 of the 58 R-33 Cars with overhauled trucks went into storage at Concourse Yard recnently, to be held on reserve, not reefed.
For how long will they be kept in reserve?
Indefinitely. They'll be used as needed for service.
-Stef
There should still be 28 Redbirds at the 239th St. One pair, 8996-97, had been pulled to the refuse train for a couple of days.
You mean 239th St Yard? I just went there a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't even see ONE Redbird. Nothing but plain, boring R142s. You have no idea how PO'd I was when I went all the way up there and couldn't find anything else, even an R62 or something would have made the pictures more interesting. Just look at these. If there are any redbirds up there, they must be all the way at the other end behind a train of R142s.
Really? I thought a few might be there, otherwise the remaining cars have to be at East 180th St/Unionport Yard.
Nice pix.
-Stef
I haven't been there (at 239th St) in a while and all I can think is how times have changed! Redbird City No More....
-Stef
5 R-62s from Mosholu have been officially transferred to Livonia. As a result several R-33s were brough back into service to cover for those cars on the 4....
1506-1510 are being used to train Car Inspectors at Livonia Yard.
-Stef
Don't they need to keep one last train running just for you?
Well, it looks as though we may be without light rail service come next week with only skeletal bus service.
RTD operators overwhelmingly shot down the latest contract offer and will strike as early as next week. We haven't had a strike since July of 1982, when bus drivers walked off the job for 27 days.
It doesb't look good.
Details from the UTU site
I wonder whether this will translate into fare hikes on NJT in Northern New Jersey. Fares at the northernmost NJT stations are held down to the level of the Metro North fares in Rockland.
For example, on the Pascack Valley line the monthly fare to Hoboken from Westwood and Hillsdale (Zone 9) is $143. The monthly fare from Woodcliff Lake, Park Ridge and Montvale (Zone 10) is also $143. Normally, NJT charges $154 from Zone 9 and $162 from Zone 10. But, because Metro North charges only $143 from Nanuet, Pearl River and Spring Valley -- NJT caps their pricing at $143 on the Pascack Valley.
With Metro North tickets going to $177, NJT could implement their normal fares. I wonder whether NJT allowed for the possibility of an automatic increase on the Pascack Valley and Main/Bergen Lines when they filed their last rate hike in the event of a Metro North increase.
CG
I already posted the Bus version of my trip in Bustalk so any bus fans that post here from time-time,go check it out.Now as for the subway part of my trip,I left my home at 11AM took the 1 train to Times Sq where I encountered a couple of tourists who had no idea where they wanted to go.They said Lexington Av but didn't know what street so I couldn't help them.So on they went to get direction's while I boarded a Queens bound R train which was an R46 lead car was 6036.I stayed on the train to Woodhaven Blvd where I went to Queens Center to have my lunch at Taco Bell.Man,gotta love Taco Bell.
Afterward's I took the next Manhattan bound train which turned out to be another R train but this one was an R32,yes an R32 R train.I was suprised when I saw it.Well I took that to Roosevelt Av then waited for the next E train and took that too Canal St where I just stood and waited for an A train that was either an R32 or R38. About 20-30mins later an R38 show's up with all the side sign's saying Far Rockaway even though it was going to Lefferts Blvd. Whoopsy daisy to whoever's in charge of changing the sign's and didn't do it.
I got off at Rockaway Blvd where I thought about waiting for the Q21 bus but since the next one was 50mins away I just opted to take the A shuttle to Broad Channel and transfer there to the other shuttle to Rock Pk. The A shuttle is running single track on the Manhattan bound track for those of you who did not know or have not gone through that within the last 3 months or so.After arriving at Rock Pk,I took the bus to Kings Plz;which is explained in Bustalk; and eventually I got to the 50St station on the M/W.Now here's the super cool part,I had just missed an M train going toward Bay Pkwy/CI so I knew the next train was gonna be a W.So obviously I expected to get on a R68A as is the custom on the W....WRONG!!WRONG!!WRONG!!SO DEAD WRONG!!! WRONG!! WRONG!! even though I was going 2 stops to 62St to transfer to the N,I was graced by the presense of an R40 Slant.YES! An R40S on the W!!
The side signs and the front sign of the train had a diamond W but the sign at the end of the train had a circle W.
Afterward's I took an R68 N train to 86St and turned back letting 2 R68's go before a Slant showed up.Guess which train was gonna be the next to follow,yep an R40M. I saw another one going in the direction of 86St while I was riding on the Slant.Got off at Pacific St/Atlantic Av hopped on a 2 train there which was using a set from the 5 train,lead car was 7036.Now here's the thing I've been waiting to hear for a long time on the 2 train at 14St and Times Sq. It announced the V train at 14St and the Q&W at Times Sq. FINALLY!!! the 2 train is up to date!!! I got off at 96St and hopped on the 1 train home.
So overall,despite having a damn f***ing cold,and I hate having a cold with a damn passion,I had a very good day.Had lots of fun riding with MTA NYCT which definantly went my way.Today was definantly a excellent day to take advantage of with how warm it was outside,hell I even wore a pair of red shorts today.SHORTS!! At this time of the year,that's amazing in my book.Anywho I'm glad to share my fabulous day with you all,hope to read thoughts and comments from as many people who read this and I wish you all a very goodnight.
Yesterday at a Times Square station token booth, there was a sign saying "Computer Down, Tokens Only." What will the policy be for future subway entry in a tokenless world when a station attendant's computer is down?
--Mark
Buy your card at an MVM or at a retailer who sells metrocards
Real Simple
No - what I meant is that the MetroCard readers in the turnstyles are not connecting to the master computer to record your entry because of a glitch somewhere. What would the policy be for fare entry be in a case like this? (i.e. the gate is broken)
--Mark
I think a turnstile would be able to read your Metrocard and determine if it's ok to let you thru. If it was connected to the master computer or not.
Buses are not connected to the master computer. Each turnstyle gets periodic updates from the master computer concerning invalid serial numbers etc. All info needed to complete the transaction is on the card
I was refering to a turnstile that was not connected with the master computer. Bus fareboxes are another story.
The answer to this question would probably be to buy your card from the MVMs. As of this point, it's hard to say what the S/A will be instructed to do in the event of a Computer Failure. I've proposed bringing in a supply of pre-encoded farecards, cards already made up with specific denominations. These cars are wrapped in plasic. The Clerk will have something to sell during their tour.
I'll play devil's advocate for a minute - if I don't have the pre-encoded cards and the MVMs are also down in addition to the my computer, what should I be doing? On buses with non-working fareboxes, passengers have gotten a free ride. Clerks might be instructed to do the same thing and let Customers in.
-Stef
I'm surprised that the TA doesn't already do that. It would move the lines a bit faster, even if the computers weren't down, say $6, $9, $15, this way if a customer comes to you asking for that amount, just pull out the card and give it to them, as opposed to having to go through the process of encoding the card for every customer.
After May 4th it will be sensible to have $10 and $20 ones ready-made.
Outside vendors will sell them ready made.
-Stef
This happened at 42nd St with the Station Computer down and ALL MVM at the booth were not accepting cash. The poor SA was haggard and Staions refused to let people in, by with a credit/debit card, by tokens and NO DISCOUNT or go up to the street to another entrance was what the SA was told to tell customes.
Finaly NYPD, because of overcrowding conditions, let people in for free. Stations can not say anything if the PD says for saftey, let them in.
I hope this is not the policy once tokens are gone,
Heh! It's going to be a damn circus. That's what I'm afraid of....
-Stef
Finally NYPD, because of overcrowding conditions, let people in for free. Stations can not say anything if the PD says for saftey, let them in.
I hope this is not the policy once tokens are gone
I certainly would imagine that the police have no authority to allow fare-less entry unless it's a safety/overcrowding situation.
Clerks have done this in the past, actually. I haven't seen one of those "wrapped" cards in quite some time. What would often happen was when there was an Assistant to the Clerk, he'd be set up at his own window and would sell tokens and these pre-encoded cards. Most booths don't have two computers.
-Stef
Clerks have done this in the past, actually. I haven't seen one of those "wrapped" cards in quite some time.
I thought so, but like you said its been a while, so I couldn't remember if the people were getting them from the S/A's or from stores.
I think "wrapped" cards are only available at the stores. There MAY be a few booths that still have them. They still don't have MVM's yet. But it's been a while since I've seen one.
I wonder if P/T Booth N62 at Port Authority finally got it's machines installed? I haven't been there since the end of last pick, the booth had been moved to accomodate the machines...
-Stef
I don't know myself. I haven't been on the subways in over a month. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Samething with the booth at B'way-E.N.Y. Last time I was there was on Feb 20. I wasn't looking for the MVM's. But I didn't notice any.
"Assistant to the Clerk" Fancy way of saying "Assist". Either way they're called, you won't find too many of these in a booth these days.
I know. Ahhhhhhhhhhh, those were the good old days!!! These days, the Assist job is designated Work as Assigned.
-Stef
Hopefully with the new pick, TA might decide to bring assists back to the booth.
I can dream, can't I?
Not in our lifetime! They'll choke the clerks at Penn Sta and TSQ first, then give them a break by putting them outside in roaming status for 8 hours.
-Stef
And I thought the TA was getting rid of those double booths anyway.
This morning when I was changing trains at Leicester (England) - the main station for a city/conurbation of about 500,000 people - the station public address announced that owing to a computer failure the station could issue no tickets! It is an open station (no barriers or turnstiles) so everyone could get on to their trains without paying. Pay the conductor on the train, the announcer said - all varieties of tickets including discounted ones will be available from conductors. Ah, said our conductor on my train's public address, my portable ticket machine is broken down too, so everyone boarding this train at Leicester gets a free ride today courtesy of Schlumberger! (Schlumberger being the manufacturers of the computer system. Sea Beach Fred will be delighted to know that they are a French company.) Unfortunately for me, I had boarded, and paid, elsewhere.....
Very interesting. On board collection is not done in the City Subway, but it is done on Commuter Rail Lines that leave the city and travel to the Subburbs. Those Conductors issue receipts by hand.
-Stef
They used to do it on the Dyre line. I always wondered (not that I wanted to see it expanded) why only that line.
The Dyre Line's booths close for the night. Onboard collection hasn't been done since OPTO was implemented in '96.
Since then, Transit adopted an honor system where the Customer is expected to pay the fare even if there are no watchful eyes on them.
-Stef
I wish I'd taken a trip somewhere yesterday...
Sod's law if that happened to me, I'd be going to Birmingham New St and would have to pay to get out of the station!
OK, now suppose I can purchase an MVM but the card readers at all the turnstyles are not responding to swipes (i.e. network outage).
- Has something like that ever happened?
- What do you think entry policy would be in a tokenless world if the above did happen?
--Mark
"- What do you think entry policy would be in a tokenless world if the above did happen? "
They would record your DNA, fingerprints, your firstborn and send you a bill.
I thought MTA was doing that already with their EZ Pass!
When the T/S malfunctioned and were Out Of Service in the past, we had a Non Registering Farebox (the black box) placed into service. You would place your token in the box and walk through the Service Gate. There was a sign - "Deposit Your Token Here".
In a tokenless world I suppose you could keep the farebox available and make the cutomers deposit $2 in coins or bills, but that is merely speculation on my part. The worst case scenario, I say let them through for nothing!!!
Hope This Helps,
Stef
Chances are a S/S would tell you to let them thru. But would after saying first "I didn't say anything but...."
'PLEEEESE WIPE AGAIN'
At alot of turnstiles the metrocard readers have to be cleaned several times a day.
When magtape readers need to be cleaned that frequently, it's a sign that the pickup head has worn and developed a flat spot and needs to be replaced. Eventually the flat head develops a widened head gap that actually scratches magentic material and by that point it can no longer read or write reliably. ("Tape Recorder repair 101", RCA Institutes)
It's possible. Then again the heads are sometimes very dirty. There was one time I cleaned some turnstile readers and what came off on the cleaning cards was very purple. A cross between crayon and grape jelly.
I'm sure there's people messing with them as well. Most of the "cleaners" for card readers are a tight-woven fabric that will hold the alcohol for a runthrough - watch for gouges that run the length of the card cleaner along the length - that's a SURE sign of a worn head. Not that it's your worry of course. I was never terribly fond of magnetic media - works OK for a good while, then they go flambee (pardon my French, heh) ...
SOME day the system will go "contactless" and will become more reliable without all those "scratchy things" running through the turnstiles.
That someday will be sooner then most expect. I read somewhere a few weeks back that PATH and NYCT were collaberating on the next generation metrocard.
The TA made a good choice with the magnetic metrocard. Back in the early 90's the rf technology was just too expensive and unpractical.
One funny note> Chucky Shumer is up in arms that he has to pay for his lost E-ZPASS reader. Drivers are responcible for there E-ZPASS. They must either leave a depoit if they pay by check or cash or authorize the MTA to deduct the cost of the Tag is they loose it. The MTA would have had to charge for the RF transoponders if they decided to go with them in the early 1990's. That would not have gone over well
Gotta love gubbamint ... while Mobil gave them away for FREE just to get people to use them, gubbamint was CHARGING people for the privilege of saving the gubbamint money, personnel and time. Just gotta love it. :)
(while Mobil gave them away for FREE just to get people to use them, gubbamint was CHARGING people for the privilege of saving the gubbamint money, personnel and time.)
That's a legitimate pricing scheme. No one forces you to use E-ZPass. And the agnecies also made a huge capital investment implementing the system.
I didn't get one when the Thruway was the only place it could be used, AND they charged a monthly fee. But once TBTA and PA offered them, AND offered a discount each time you use it, I got one. The savings in money (and especially TIME) are worth the risk of losing it or having it stolen.
I do also wonder whether Chuck has been out of Brooklyn for too long. Why would you leave your E-ZPass in your car when you park it on the street?
And to get back on topic, this is very similar to a monthly Metrocard or commuter pass. You pay a substantial penalty if you lose it, but the risk is worth it because of the savings. The risk also provides an incentive to guard it carefully.
>>>Chucky Shumer is up in arms that he has to pay for his lost E-ZPASS reader.<<<
His EZ Pass was not lost. It was in his car and his car was stolen.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hopefully Chucky reported his loss to MTA so that they could invalidate his pass.
Either way he is responciple for the item.
Heard from the grapevine about Stillwell reconstruction:
When the new station opens before May, 2004, only tracks 1-6 will be completed. West End uses tracks 7 and 8 so that platform will have to be reconstructed. So the W line must go somewhere, it cannot end at Bay 50th St (no place to eat around there), so once again, it will have to use Tracks 1 and 2 (Sea Beach line), while the N continues to end at 86th st for a few months. Hopefully, they will postpone that part of the reconstruction until after the Summer 2004 beach season.
It's just a plan, nothing official yet. Too early to tell, this was done once before when the entire width of the Neptune Ave Bridge (south of Stillwell) was redone several years ago.
This isn't news. We've known all along that Sea Beach service to Coney Island will not be restored until 2005. Culver/Brighton service should be restored in about a year (BUILD FASTER GUYS!!!)
["It's just a plan, nothing official yet. Too early to tell, this was done once before when the entire width of the Neptune Ave Bridge (south of Stillwell) was redone several years ago."]
Do you mean "NORTH" of Stillwell?
Yes I meant NORTH of Stillwell
At least they'll be three trains going to Stillwell Avenue instead of just one train. That should help things somewhat by next year. Too bad the Sea Beach can't join in on the party.
#3 West End Jeff
From what I saw on Sunday, the demolition is far from being completed. I feel it will be a miracle if tracks 1 to 6 will be ready in 14 months.
When was it installed? Here's a pic from 1979. No track:
The middle track was installed recently (last 8-10 years) to connect with Linden shops.
Thanks. My last ride to New Lots was on an R21/22, so that tells you how long ago it was,
I'm amazed that it's 1979 and those windows in the station aren't smashed yet!
Maybe the windows were already smashed and they look unbroken.
Junius Middle was installed in time to scrap a great many GE R-16s at Linden Yard during 1983. The connecting ramp east (south) of the IRT station, believe it or not, is new steel from that time. The ramp from (1) Broadway IRT into 207 Street Shops was installed about the same time.
Note that the crossing east of Junius station is a "diamond" and not a crossover. The interlocking is at the west (north) end of the station itself. This is the only such railroad-style "Diamond" crossing on the entire NYCT system I believe.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Lenox Junction would be the other where Lenox Avenue track 3 crosses White Plains track 2. In 1983, the hand switch from 105th Street was still in place before Linden Yard had the direct connection to the Canarsie Line. The hand switch was used and the LIRR trainmaster had to be notified for cars to be moved over it onto the LIRR trackage to Linden, pre NYAR. They had to move those scrap cars through the hand switches, they would not be able to move to the IRT for disposal. They scrapped more than R16s there too. I recall working a roadmaster out of Linden in 1997 and spotting a badly rotted portholed storm door in the weeds, along with an R10-R16 fiberglass seat and I have a picture of some GE R10s pieced for their rather short trip to Gershows if that is where they went.
Look here:
http://www.straphangers.org/dirt.html
It seems that the C line is the dirtiest (well, they're stuck with R32s and R36s -duhh!) and the L line is the cleanest - R143s - brand new - what else would you expect?
ignore this, i clicked post more than once and this one has some incorrect info. look at my other post.
I didn't want to post this yesterday, must admit when a subway line you love happens to be the second dirtiest in the subway system, you take solace that there are a lot of other positive things about the Q line.
I thought it said the M was the second dirtiest line.
I don't know how they figure out there statistics, but I don't find the M to be any cleaner or dirtier than the J. The M even has the new R143's on the weekends, so I can't imagine they could be all clean on the L (cleanest line) all week, and then get trashed on the M on the weekends. Somehow I think their sampling methods are a bit off and may not even be a scientific sampling of the various lines.
Looking at the tables they provide, the results are peculiar. The E, F, G, R, and V operate out of Jamaica Yard, but their ratings were 52%, 49%, 79%, 37%, and 63%, respectively. Similar results are yielded when you examine other such pairings.
Of course, considering their 'methodology', I doubt there's much behind their results-I'm surprsied they even posted that. What is "excessively clean" anyway?
Nonononono. It's the yard and supervision, period. I work #5, love my job and crew. On our track, Rooskies clean and clean. Hey, what are CTAs for??? Kursk is down 350 fathoms....one sailor is banging out SOS in Cyrlic Morse Code and his partner is cleaning off graffiti.
We're there to inspect and repair for continuance of passenger and system safety but some of these guys just keep on cleaning...long after Chernobyl. What is sad about Bomba R142s is the engravure on door pilasters and wall panels...permanant.
Look here:
http://www.straphangers.org/dirt.html
It seems that the C line is the dirtiest (well, they're stuck with R32s and R38s -duhh!) and the L line is the cleanest - R143s - brand new - what else would you expect?
What I'd like to know is:
(1) What was their methodology? If ONE car was dirty, did ALL cars in that train count as dirty? Straphangers used to do that with train signage.)
(2) How much of that dirt/litter/etc. did the Strappies have to put there themselves, especially on the R143's? (An old high school friend tells me that she stopped volunteering for Straphangers because of similar methods in its earlier surveys of both dirt and train signage.)
Methodology:
http://www.straphangers.org/dirtmethodology03.html
Also, I think this is slightly skewed, considering that some R142s and 143s are just on-property now, and may have just made their debuts.
7661 #4
I find the exterior of the R143's to be filthy, but I'm hoping that's just because it's winter. To me though, they just seem to be dirtier than the other cars on the exterior.
No, not so duhhh ... just because the equipment is older doesn't necessarily mean it's dirtier.
--Mark
As everyone living in NYC knows, we have had warm, springlike weather for the past two days, with temps in the 60's. Last night, however, the LIRR M-1 I took from Penn to Cedarhurst was HEATED. The C/R explained that the engineer cannot turn on the A/C in the train once the train has left the yard, since adjustments have to be made under the train before the A/C can be turned on. The C/R also told us that the heat could not be turned off because then the fans would go off too and there would be no air circulation. This made for an excruciating ride home.
Is this true? Does anyone know?
First let me say that on NYCT cars, the operator or conductor can energize the train's HVAC with one button. Each individual car can be shut down by circuit breakers. LIRR should be very similar.
On NYCT trains Heat comes on in stages when ambient temp is 59 degrees or less. AC comes on in stages above 71 degrees. Between 60 and 71 degrees, only the evaporator fan runs to circulate air. Again, I'm sure LIRR has a similar arrangenment.
From what I've seen, some LIRR conductors are woefully ignorant of climate controls. Then again, it may involve work-rules I'm not familiar with OR some cars may have their HVAC controls jumped out - taking the control out of the crew's hands.
Does anyone know exactly what part of the bridge at 36th-37th Streets between 5th & 9th Avenues is closed to pedestrians? DOT's website (suprise) doesn't offer very detailed information. I need to know for a photo trip I'm planning for South Brooklyn-I planned this before, but the bridge was closed at 9 Av/37 St, so I couldn't walk by the yard. The next time I'd like to get pictures from somewhere on this bridge, as well as of SBK's Bush Terminal Yard while I'm at it. I know the work won't be done anytime soon, but I just want to know exactly what streets are closed between where and where.
If I remeber correctly, it's 36 Street between 5 and 9 Avenues. My brother-in-law works at the rail bender in the 36 Street Yard.
SBK Yard is behind CostCo on 39 Street between 2 and 3 Ave, but you may not find much there.
Excuse me , DTrain22, the area your are planning to visit aren't the best places to go to get pictures or views of train yards. My favorite place, is the W Train comes out of the portal of 4th Avenue and 39 Street , even though, the view is obstructed by a fence, I feel that its a good view of the W Train making those turns. Oh yea, that neighborhood, isn't that safe, when you get past, 4th Avenue.
I don't know, it didn't seem that bad the last time I went over there. There were enough people around, and they didn't look like they were up to no good or anthing. And I know about that spot, my camera's lens is small enough to fit through the holes in the fence, so i already have about 3 or 4 pics from over there. I simply wanted more pictures of the yard.
I would be careful while taking pics of the yard and trains. The neighborhood, I wouldn't worry much about. The POLICE will question your motives and may prevent you from taking any pics. Being we are nearing a possible war, I would wait a bit before scouting area train yards as well as subway trains. It's better to be safe than sorry. Just wait at least until late spring or summer before going on your field trip.
True. Good point. I was thinking about doing it week of Spring Break, but I might wait until school's out. Besides, by then the construction's supposed to be done on the bridge anyway.
And the war may be history as well.
I hope.
During the day time you should be ok in that area. It is not the safest place in the world but by no means a warzone
Currently, How many M7 Trainsets are in service and in testing? BTW, I saw 2 M7's this morning on the Flatbush Branch going in both directions.
-AcelaExpress2005
IIRC, somewhere in the 3-5 range, whith 1-2 being 8-car sets.
For customers on the F Line, you should know, that sometimes during Rush Hours, F Trains are overcrowded, and they do tend to skip stations from Jay Street to 4 Avenue. My idea to stop that congestion and is to extend the V Train all the all-way to Church Avenue to relive that congestion on the F Line. The V Line on Weekdays, operate from Church Avenue, Brooklyn to 71/Continental Avenues and on the weekends it should stop at its regular terminal of 2nd Avenue in Lower Manhattan, what do you guys think of this idea?
I agree completely, but there are a few problems:
- Cost. The TA isn't exactly rolling in dough.
- The ability of Church Ave to be able to handle turning both V and G trains has been put under question. Work will have to be done there to do this.
- Car availability. There may not be enough cars in the fleet to do this. The G needs to be restored to 6 cars first.
- The Bergan St. interlocking is still being repaired and is not 100% functional.
Car availability. There may not be enough cars in the fleet to do this. The G needs to be restored to 6 cars first
Bah. Just cut the headways in half on the V train. It would still help, combined with extended G service and express F service.
The ability of Church Ave to be able to handle turning both V and G trains has been put under question. Work will have to be done there to do this.
Aren't there four tracks down there? What more do they need?
Aren't there four tracks down there? What more do they need?
Yes, there are, but they were designed for a line that would branch off along Fr. Hamilton Pky to Staten Island (yeah... they had dreams back then too!) and not for switching trains as a Church Avenue Terminal.
The problem is that the crossover is too far away from the terminal which means that trains must wrong rail for too great a distance, which in turn means that the line cannot terminate two services there.
*MY* Proposal, heard here many times, and needing to wait until the Bergen Interlocking is rebuilt, is to run the (G) train local to Church Avenue; to run the (F) train local to Coney Island; and to run a new service (I'd make it the (E) for now) Express to Kings Highway.
OK, I would run the (V) to Chambers Street via the 6th Avenue Local, giving 6th Avenue access to the financial district, and I'd switch the (E) from 8th Avenue to the Rutgers Tunnel. This can be done because there are flying crossovers on the Local Tracks south of the West 4th Street Station.
OK, why the (F) local on the Culver and why short turn the (E) Express at Kings Highway: making everybody change from the (F) to the (E) at Kings Highway? Well the express track (rush direction only) terminates at the center platform at KH, and there would be delays and trains in the way of each other to do it otherwise. And the (F) and (G) services are kept in tact on the upper level of the Smith Street Lion so that the NIMBYs will not bitch about a reduction of service on *their* line. No the new service needs to be the one to make the express stops, and it has to end at KH because that is the wat the tracks are built.
Elias
Church can handle it. I had both a G layup and a Sat. G relay last week, and stopped in the tower before heading off to KHF. (first time ever in the yard or the tower. Nice to see something new!) It's like a cross between Continental (leads in between exp and local tracks) and 179 lower (you can switch from wall to wall, but there is only space on each track for one train). Plus, "long relays" available at 18th Av. middle. I asked the dispatcher, and he said it could handle turning all trains there.
I heard yesterday that the tracks and switches at Church are original -- ie. 70 plus years old. That's in addition to car availability, and the Bergen Street interlocking problem.
All this could be solved by 2006, if it is a priority. In addition to F express service, Church Avenue could serve as a yard to store G trains, freeing up space at Jamaica Yard.
One problem is, the Culver/Prospect Park line does not have enough traffic to justify all those trains. Then again, if you had 15 F express trains (in addition to the V and G local to Church), maybe it would attract the traffic, especially if the F was split with some trains making express stops only all the way to Coney Island. You'd have local, express, and very express.
(One problem is, the Culver/Prospect Park line does not have enough traffic to justify all those trains.)
But 14 current F trains could be recomposed as 8 locals from Church and 8 expresses from CI without added expense, because half the trains would be making a shorter run.
The question is: would Culver Line riders prefer 8 locals and 8 expresses to 14 locals?
On the Concourse, with its 17 tph, they see to prefer the split. As David has pointed out, on CPW late at night certain people even prefer 3 tph of locals and 3 tph of expresses to 6 tph of locals.
I seen rider get crushed on the F especially on the weekends and middays, I really they should extend the V to church ave and into weekend, restored the full fleet on the G. Not enough cars? They should use some extra R32, R68 from the CI yard.
Coney Island gave up its last R-32 a few weeks ago.
As for R-68's -- they'd come off the Q, then. What would you do about the reduced service there?
Coney Island gave up its last R-32 a few weeks ago.
NO more R32 on the N?
That's right. March 7 was the end. (I have some not-so-great photos from March 3, but they're not ready to post yet.) You'll only find R-32's on the Jamaica and Pitkin lines now.
Here's one of my favorite shots, of a W train running on the Sea Beach due to a GO on 11/17/02:
I wasn't aware of this news. OH MAN!..Shoot!..DAMN! :( I was going take some pic of an R32 N be4 they retired. Damn that "friggin fruitcake" (that TA person whose in charge of diverting fleet). no wonder why I haven't seen one single R32 W since March 5. Oh well, at least I took several shot of R32 W. Well better take some more shots on the R32 F and R be4 they're completely gone forever
If anything, you'll be seeing more R-32's on the F and R. CI's R-32's weren't scrapped or anything; they were sent to Jamaica. R-32's are going to be around for a while.
Go after R-42's on the L, R-40M's on all the Eastern Division lines, and, of course, all Redbirds (especially on the 4 and 5). They are the current endangered species.
R 42 on the L? I thought the L line no longer use R42
Maybe you're thinking of R-40's, which have been gone from ENY since summer 2002 or so. There aren't enough R-143's in service yet to cover the L, so it still runs a few sets of R-42 and R-40M.
This is a subject that keeps popping up, like a broken LP. I agree with you 110%, but, like it was mentioned before, you need cash and cars for the service. Besides, if a line was to be extended to Church Ave, it should be the G. V trains may not remain around once the Manhattan Bridge is in full service.
No, it will. The TA will not leave the E alone in the 53rd Tunnel. The E will be mobbed with riders without the V there and the F is not going back to the 53rd St tunnel, because that would require closing 57th and 6th. That will never happen.
When the R160's start coming in and the Bergen Interlocking is repaired only then will this possibly happen so untill then,save this idea,it's been mentioned before more times than I can count.
This the 6 Line Straight to Hell, Stand Clear of the Closing Doors Please...............
Who said "New Tech" couldn't be hacked by da script kiddies? :)
LOL.
"Move any handle to reboot train." :)
Maybe the programmer needs to be booted.
That picture made the rounds a while back, I've been sitting on a copy of it for a few weeks myself. What I actually wonder is if it's possible to actually key in new "signage" or if the picture's a fake. Either way, you'll note that New Yorkers got *ON* it anyway, thus proving an old motorman's joke - "folks would get on a train signed for hell, and if there's a seat, they'd take the garbage train if it stopped in front of them." :)
The picture is a fake.
My suspicions precisely. Someone with the software to go down to the pixel level can probably spot it.
Fake pictures are real easy to fake. My buddie who works with photoshop can make the destination sign in the picture say anything you want. It would take less then 5 min to do. Once the proper font is found, it would take even less time
Wish I had the REAL LCD nonsense pic when trainline comms fail and the answer is not in the book. Brought it to everyones attention...something like 'GLOBAL ZONET FAILURE.' Shook up a lot of big brains....repair is to dump and redump/reboot. MOAB flattens out camels and carpets in Bahgdad, R142 ten pack stalls in station blinking 'GLOBAL ZONET FAILURE.' Give 'whirled peas' a chance.
Ahh but is it a sign hack or a photoshop hack?
Definitely photoshop
Why does it always have to be Photoshop? Nobody ever thinks it could be Paint Shop Pro or something else. Does Adobe have you all brainwashed?
This one done with PSP 7.
Photoshop is a little more versatile, and more popular, and I don't know if there's a Paint Shop Pro version for Macs, whould would make a big change in which one is used more.
If Photoshop can do this, have my dream done!! Get a pic of an R142 and put it on the Flushing line! :D
No takers? All of you are wusses! I love the IRT Flushing as much as Fred loves his BMT Sea Beach! Hmm, I wish I had Photoshop! :(
Okay CPCTC, since you asked nicely, just for you......
(BTW, You didn't think we had MAGLEV technoligy on the Flushing line did you?)
LOL
(BTW, You didn't think we had MAGLEV technology on the Flushing line did you?)
LOL
I don't get the MAGLEV joke.
Well obviously it's not the best cut and paste job, and was done quickly so the train looks like it's hovering.
To be honest, I think it looks like it's on the rails!
"The arriving 7 train will stop at both the Flushing-bound platform and the Manhattan-bound platform. Please watch your step."
"And please 4' stand back from the platform edge at express stops."
Wow... Thank you!
Either way, ya GOTTA love it. Now ... since it was going STRAIGHT to hell, shouldn't it have been on the express track? :)
6 on an express track in manhattan? no way!
Then it can't be going STRAIGHT to hell, it's making stops along the way. :)
Maybe the train wants to pick up as many as possible.
Making stops for Bruno and Paturkey? ;-)
Heh. They're in the cab up front. :)
Nah, it would have gotten there sooner on the local track.:)
Now if they could put a neener-neener on that message board.
Or a moo.:)
Hmmmm, must be a southbound train ...
Are you Union Square from Strappies? That's his picture by the way, edited with Photoshop.
Nah, Im 8th Avenue Express over there.
LMAO. Is that the train Osama, Saddam, and David Duke are supposed to be on? And shouldn't it be the "666" train?
Is that the train Osama, Saddam, and David Duke are supposed to be on?
Please, Osama doesn't even deserve to be locked in one of our filthy subway rest rooms with the track rats.
And shouldn't it be the "666" train?
Triple digits for the locals.....
LOL! IS that real or is it more likely someone having fun with their favorite photo editing software?!
I kind of think it's a fake, but it's a good fake.
oh sh*t.lol
til next time
Well, it wouldn't be the first time I saw a screwed-up sign, especially since this one's probably fake. I once saw an R46 that said "LIRR Penn Station" at 14th Street & 8th Avenue. I dunno what the heck it actually was, we just got on the E instead-A isn't much faster, and besides, that was before I memorized NYCTA's track layout, so for all I knew I could've actually ended up in Penn Station somehow.
I once saw an F train at Coney Island that said "Metro-North RR". Kinda strange for an R46 to have Metro-North on its destination signs.
R44/46s also have a display for "LONG ISLAND RR" I guess the TA just had the signs programmed for general use throughout their systems. Have them programmed once initially and order as many as needed, where needed.
Hell seems to be a popular destination :) I made this one for a friend as a joke when he said he was sick of riding the A.
Love it! Surprised it didn't display "Call RCI!" on front. :)
Hehe. Not to bring up 76th Street again, but seeing that that train is in the Court Street Station, aka the TM, and the original plan was to run the Fulton locals not to Manhattan, but between terminals at either end of the Fulton Line, maybe that destination is why the 76th Street station is so hush hush.
Alright you caught me, I modified the original rare photo, and here it is.
LOL! Right down to the reflection in the window!
Now, if Hell, Michigan ever got commuter rail, there indeed would be trains to Hell!
Thats a good one. I love it!! I did once spot a messed up LCD sign on the #5 Line. I think it was car 6831-35 OPTO set. It said " 5 to Global Zone. It also said it on the inside. Then instead of the Auto Announcement your would hear "Bing Bong,Bing Bong". This train was really messed up.
Gets posted in 239th but pic is red....time to go to Walmart for a ink refill!!!
Best get a move on to that Wal*Mart, bro ... got this in email tonight ...
SPECIAL RETAIL ANNOUNCEMENT!!!
All Wal-Mart and K-Mart stores in Iraq will be closing on or before
March 25th.
After that, they will all become Targets.
Thank you; that is all.......
ROTFLOL!!!
Keep up the good sh!t man! It may be the end of the world, but at least we can keep discussing whether a car has black or tan floors!
Rim shot!
Moo.
I could have done that with Microsoft Paint.....
Rode the 5:45 out of Flatbush yesterday. The bathrooms are HUGE! Much improved over the M-1/3s. Three people could certainly party in there. Complete with lighted "Door Locked/In Use" signs. Other features/amenities: RailCall phones, a SEATED RFW position (if the LIRR folds the cab over), and C-3 style computer announcements. However the seats are narrower compared to the M-1 and the trainsets have (generally) been shorter than M-1/3s. Two questions:
1) What does that ascending musical tone (a staggered rising scale) signify? It doesn't seem to be associated with a station announcement or crew signal.
2) Can the M-7s be coupled to any of the LIRR's protect engines, or are DE/DM equipped for this. In HSF, there is an M-7 pair coupled to two flats, then an MP15.
BTW the first thing my filthy mind thought of when I entered the M-7 bathroom was, "Why didn't that LIRR sex trio have sex in HERE?" I mean that restroom would have been an obvious quickie location...especially on a midnight train...OK, OK, I'll be a good little railfan. ;-)
However the seats are narrower compared to the M-1
Narrower??? Good Lord! M-1/3 seats are designed for midget anorectic quadruple amputees. So who are the even narrower M-7 seats designed for? Protozoans?
Amoebas.
John Zacherle's favorite lifeform. :)
The sex trio thought that no one would suspect them doing what they were doing in those narrow little seats.
---Brian
Does anyone know when the M-7's are running on the Ronkonkoma line in either directions?
I saw a set of M-7 pass along the City Terminal Zone at Woodside Ave this afternoon at 140pm going E/B. I think 1 of the cars was 7014.
It was a 6 car consist. Probably a burn-in test.
#7034 LIRR
I saw a set of M-7 pass along the City Terminal Zone at Woodside Ave this afternoon at 140pm going E/B. I think 1 of the cars was 7014.
It was a 6 car consist. Probably a burn-in test.
#7014 LIRR
Doubt it. 7014 has been in service for a while, now.
6:04 pm from FBA M-7 ronkonkama
I was on a a R38 on the C Train today and observed that there was Black Floors installed on the Train, I didn't they started to put the black flooring on the R38's, as a matter of fact, I was fooled when I got on the train, I thought it was a R32 until I saw the train number and the handle bars.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Geez, black foors? Those cars will be even DARKER ...
what???black flooring on the R38,no way,the R38 arn,t even sopose to have those flooring,do ya remember the car number?
til next time
Nah, It was in the 3000 series though, but Im not mistaken it was a R38 with Black Flooring, I boarded the C Train at Bway this morning, while I was waiting for my Gurlfriend, and I thought it was R32 until I had to look twice.
The inside of cars 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, 3934-7 look like R38s. The skins, however, scream Brightline.
Those are all R32 Trainsets, The R38 Cars are from 3950-4149, the R38 I was on was #39xx.
Way can't the R38's get new floors. They need them just as bad as the other classes of cars. I know they might be scraped in the next few years just like most of the other classes, but I think that the TA rather put new floors in now before someone goes thought one later. I mean how do you tell controll that someone is stuck in the floor because they fell thought and hit the restor grids. Besides the order for the R160's might get put on hole because there might not be any money ot pay for them, so alittle but of work now might be the answer to not having to buy new cars later.
robert
From the J-O-B:
"Recent international developments neccessitate the urgent need for caution by all members of the service when responding to and at the scene of all assignments. All personnel shall at all times take steps to ensure that their safety, and that of the patient, is not compromised. All personnel shall maintain heightened awareness of their environment, with special attention given to sensitive locations. These include but are not limited to high-rise structures, sports facilities, theaters, RAPID TRANSIT/RAIL STATIONS AND TRAINS (emphasis mine), bridges, tunnels, airports, hospitals, and museums. Please consider this a War Warning and follow procedures for the designated alert level immediately."
IOW, enjoy the trains but PLEASE use your heads and be careful.
In other words, ask before you take a picture, or you'll be sitting in a room with one swinging lightbulb and two "investigators".
SEPTA police went on 12 hour shifts on Tuesday.
We are living in interesting times!
As the Chinese cursed us to, correct?
I work for NY-Presbyterian Hospital. We've been on alert since 9/11/01 so I'm still on the edge of my toes.
From the J-O-B:
"Recent international developments neccessitate the urgent need for caution by all members of the service when responding to and at the scene of all assignments. All personnel shall at all times take steps to ensure that their safety, and that of the patient, is not compromised. All personnel shall maintain heightened awareness of their environment, with special attention given to sensitive locations. These include but are not limited to high-rise structures, sports facilities, theaters, RAPID TRANSIT/RAIL STATIONS AND TRAINS (emphasis mine), bridges, tunnels, airports, hospitals, and museums. Please consider this a War Warning and follow procedures for the designated alert level immediately."
William Shakespeare wrote a play whose title is very much in point. It's called Much Ado About Nothing.
"William Shakespeare wrote a play whose title is very much in point. It's called Much Ado About Nothing. "
The French had something like that in the first half of 1940. They called it "The Phony War" Then in 6 weeks German troops reached Paris.
Reminds me of what was said during the 40's:
"Is this trip really necessary?"
Someone please explain what they are doing in the subway. Last Saturday, I had to go to a tower ( Location is unimportant )
I was off and in street clothes. I walked past four (4) National Guards with their M-16's and 2 cops with not a single one of them saying a word as I entered a "secure area". I could not believe it. They are there to protect what??????? They had no idea who the hell I was. I could have been.... Oh well..... I guess they are there for show...
-Mark W.
Do you look Arab? If you looked Arab they probably would have stopped you...maybe...just maybe....
The National Guard is now going to be deployed at EVERY single subway station. Just heard it on the news just a few minutes ago as it is on every single TV station.
#1700 7 Flushing Local
Did you see the N Rollsign on the front of the R46 Trainset?
No.
I've been telling everyone in the past here and they don't believe me. Great, the truth finally came from you. WOO HOO. Now everyone will believe that there was a R46 W train in 4 5 months ago.
This wasn't a W train, though.
BTW, FTR, I took this picture on 12/17/03.
12/17/03??
Make that 2/17/03. I've had too much to drink today.
AH HEHE HA HA! LOL. Take it easy.
Hehe, I had that problem Saturday night. I got home around 2:30, and thought it would be a good idea to turn on subtalk before going to sleep, made it through a post about concrete ties in a "Guess this photo" thread, and was about to post some nonsense about the Road Runner and "Acme" in the "Mistakes of the BMT" thread and said, I better turn the computer off instead....
Every so often I do that and the next day read what I posted thinking, "What the hell was I thinking?"
Oh yeah? How muchhave you had to drink? I had so much that i was on the floor of the kitchen for 30 minutes. But I held my liquor and didn;t throw up. Although i almost did a few times.
That was a N Train, not a W Train (sigh)
I mean, I've seen R46 W few times sometime last year. Of I haven't seen this year.
I've done this numerous times. When the signs are programmed for the route, first you must enter an access code. Some buggy units don't ask for it, so out of habit, the T/O or C/R enters it anyway. The access code is the same as the route code for N to Canal Street/Broadway Local.
Aha! I was wondering what happened on this R train in Brooklyn. I got on at 86th and quickly snapped this photo just in time -- the correct reading popped up a few seconds later.
The date was a big clue. President's Day. Saturday schedules. The N doesn't run in Manhattan on Saturdays. So how could it be going to Canal? In fact, at the time I took that photo, the N wasn't running at all, due to the blizzard.
Well, except for this snow-covered N train. I'm still surprised it made it this far.
That second shot is cool! I like how it's blurry up to about the flag.
Hold on. You mean the pic was of an R that was just signed wrong? Tell the truth, now.
You got it. It was an R train in Brooklyn.
The R46's on the N used to be common some years back (well before the R68's were on the line in the 90's). Anyway, what's with "Canal Street". What kind of GO was that?
They were common when the N used to run on Queens Blvd. When the N and R switched terminals, R trains got the R46 and the N had mainly R32's, R40's, and an occasional R42 or R27/30( which rarely happened).
Wow, was it that long ago? I guess it must have been, because I remember taking the N to Queens Center, and it was an R46. I was still a kid, so I guess that was the mid 80's. I also remember being on the N on the Sea Beach to Coney Island, but that must have been in the late 70's. That trip was the last time I rode the N on the Manhattan Bridge, and got off at Canal.
I was a kid too at the time. I was in 5 grade and they were giving out the flyers in the main office at PS 255, my school at the time. A shame I couldn't save any of them. My mother never understood my love for trains and she tossed them in the trash, just to be spiteful.
I was probably older than 5, but I was maybe just 10 or 11. I remember that I took the subway from Ridgewood to Queens Center with a friend, with a detour through East New York and Manhattan. My mother would have killed me if she knew I was "alone" in the subway in East New York (or anywhere in the subway for that matter).
Me too! I remember when I was about 6 in 1985 I remember my mom took me and my sis to CI. When we board the N on the lower level Canal St Station. The first thing I do was to kneel on the seat looking out the window when the train running over the Manny B and seeing diamond Q stopped on the opposite track and B D running on the N. Side Manny. That was the day I began to like riding on the subway. Now, today I still feel like a kid again when I ride the Q W train alone heading to school and work.
Man! I loved those days.
I rode on the R-46s on the N during the late 70s. Before that, I would get an occasional R-27/30 consist immediately after Chrystie St. Of course, I immediately think of the R-32s when the N comes to mind.
Immediately after Chrystie, R27/30s made up half or more of the N fleet, the rest were Brightliners. Immediately pre-Chrystie, all I ever saw on the N were Brightliners.
Now you know why I associate the R-32s with the N. It could also have something to do with the fact that that very first N train I rode on in 1965 was a shiny new R-32 consist. I can still see those green backlit "57th St." side signs.
Me too. And green backlit "Brighton Beach". There was an artistic flair to the subways back then. The graffiti and the decision-makers in the TA did away with that.
I think that during peak hours, some N and R trains may terminate and lay up at Canal Street.
Anyway, there was another thread about the rolling stock used on the N trains during the years.
I always remember R-32's and 46's during the 70's and early '80's. Before the N went to Queens, I vaguely recall R-42's and 44's, but very seldom!!!!!! I recall also later a few R-27-30's used on the Forest Hills to Whitehall limited runs. As for R-38's, hmmm, probably.
But how well I do remember the days of N service on the bridge (they always seemed to move a bit faster than the B and D's) and speeding up Broadway and terminating at 57 St AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tony
Some R-38s ran on the N in the 70s, I think 3950-3999.
I remember seeing them in the fall of 1974 when I attended
John Dewey HS, and the N would pass right by the athletic
field.
Here are pics of 4089 at 8th Av and at Bay Pky, and 4062 at Ft Hamilton Pky on the N.
Nice pics :)
I guess the higher numbered R-38s lived at Coney in those days.
Nice "salad" consist in the Ft Hamilton Pky pic--must have been
interesting to hear that train as the brakes released, the "darth
vader" sounds from the 38s combined with the traditional hissing
sound from the 32s.
When the R38's operated out of Jamaica, they often ran on Broadway, as the EE and later N. Same is true for the R46, until the swap with the R in 1987. Even after that a large number of R68's ran on the Astoria N route in the fall of that year, a time of weird car assignments never seen before or since:
- a couple of sets of green R10's ran on the B/K route
- a few R68 sets ran on the F
- a few sets of red R30's ran on the Broadway R (the only time I ever saw them in 10 car consists)
- R46's on the Astoria line
I know some R train's terminate at Canal St then layup untill the afternoon rush to come out of Whitehall St then.
You probably would have seen a lot more of this if the bridge had been in the North side open only phase during 9-11. Then, service from both Continental and Astoria would have run only as far as Canal, and cut off from Coney Island, the N would have only had access to Jamaica yard.
David, go check out the Straphanger's site - someone reposted your picture.
R46's on the Astoria line? Not since October 1987 have I seen that.
Believe it when you watch the Weather Channel - we are getting LAMBASTED! A foot on the ground already with up to 18 more inches expected in Denver before it's all over. The foothills have gotten a couple of feet of the wet, heavy stuff we typically get this time of year. Not too many people are complaining. We need the moisture.
Light rail has been running merrily along through all of this (just to keep this on topic.:))
Update: 19 inches in Denver and counting.
"... Light rail has been running merrily along ..."
So what are they using to plow the snow & how much longer do they think they can keep running ?
I'm not aware of any track sweepers they may have. Light rail trains were running all night last night in an attempt to keep the track and overhead catenary clear. Normally the line closes at 1:30 - 2 AM and gets going at roughly 4:30 AM. I usually see the first one or two s/b trains of the morning while headed to work.
I know this is a new LRV operation, but they must have some MOW equipment, at least something that they can put a plow on ?
Even if they depended on the City to plow the streets, including their ROW ... they would still have to get to/from their yard(s) & maintaince shops ?
Just curious my friend ...
I'm sure they have something that attaches to the front of an LRV.
The official snow total for Denver is 23 inches, taken at the former Stapleton Airport site. Actual totals vary depending on location. We got around three feet where I live. Some areas in the foothills got as much as six or seven feet.
BTW, no buses are running anywhere in metro Denver right now. OTOH light rail is still chugging along. I'd say that sends a message, doesn't it?
"... BTW, no buses are running anywhere in metro Denver right now. OTOH light rail is still chugging along. I'd say that sends a message, doesn't it? ..."
I'll agree with that !
Hey Dave is there anyway you put in something where we can have our signatures automatically put into our posts? Because I always liked that feature.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Took the Amtrak train from Paoli to NY Penn Sta on St Paddys day, I was surprised at the number of people who were already on the train
(7:58 Am) when I got on, and who rode all the way to NY.
Its a 2 hour ride from Paoli
I couldn't believe that anyone would commute that far.
The train let quite a few people off at Phila, but a number got on
Phila to NY is a much more reasonable commute, but from Chester or
Lancaster counties that is a haul.
(I happened to be listening to a few guys nad they gave me the impression that they ride everyday)
Then I think back to my days on the island, I used to take the S59
bus to Ronkonkoma, then the ride in to the city, so it could be
about the same in time.
Just thought I would throw that out there, thanks!
A 2 hour commute isn't that bad. I went to school with people who had to commute to school for 2 hours each way every day (lived in some remote part of Staten Island, went to school on the Upper West Side).
Did ya go fast? Was the Amtraker doing 125mph? Gotta love that.
---Brian
I thought the normal speed reached 125mph somewhere south of Metuchen to Philly / Washington.
Yeah, could be. I just like mentioning the fact that they go 125mph. It's fast.
---Brian
yeah it's a great ride once we leave philly.
I do the Hamitlon to NYC fairly often, and it is much faster!
the thing that is prohibitive is the $48.00 one way vs. $15... round trip!
yeah it's a great ride once we leave philly.
I do the Hamitlon to NYC fairly often, and it is much faster! (Amtrak)
the thing that is prohibitive is the $48.00 one way vs. $15... round trip!
I know that the many blue lights in the subway tunnels represent the location of emergency telephones and third-rail power cutoff points, but why don't the lights (or signs denoting phones) appear aboveground? Is it because the train radios are guaranteed to work overground? If so, are there third-rail power cutoff switches located along grade-level or elevated track? Thanks for any info.
-Will
Blue lights are NOT there to represent the location of telephones but rather the position of emergency switches which when engaged will cut out third rail power for a specific distance in both directions. The site is supposed to have a working telephone AND a fire extinguisher.
The apparent lack of a blue light doesn't mean something is missing...emergency telephones have green or yellow housings and the emergency alarm is in a red housing. Radios do not necessarily work better above ground because of the way the system is set up....tunnels use extensive 'coantena cable' while above ground suffers from passive antenna repeaters. Checked R n R.
Emergency 101: disconnection of third rail power. In the event that a co worker, passenger, trespasser or machinery contacts third rail power, do NOT attempt extrication but seek out the nearest emergency site (about every 300'.) Upon engaging the emergency cutoff switch, all power on all tracks within the zone will be shut down for approximatly TWO minutes. Immediatly contact control by telephone or radio otherwise third rail power will be reset without warning.
Never did it....or whizzed on the third rail either. CI Peter
Never did it....or whizzed on the third rail either. CI Peter
Not many people have done it and lived to tell the tale.
---Brian
Not a spot I would want to be shocked or start getting electricuted through. Gotta watch that third rail no matter how bad you got to go.....
Why would anyone want to piss on the tracks? That's just disgusting, dumb, and dangerous. I guess that would explain the funny-looking icicles I saw at Rockaway Ave that time hanging from the third rail...Some fool peed on the rail and it froze over. There was never any water leaking there.
I hope you realized I was joking.
How so? You didn't give any indication that you were, well as far as DTrain was concerned. Not everyone will think your witty posts are as so; keep that in mind.
Uhhh....perhaps this is being paranoid but....should we be mentioning such intricate knowledge as how to shut down the subway, at this time? Wouldn't want to make the bastards "jobs" any easier for them, would we?
A number of months ago some one was asking similar questions (I don't remember the theme) the site master closed sub talk down. I thought at that time that it was the right thing to do in view of the leading questions that were being posed.
We have many very savy people posting on this site. Let's be careful about what we are posting. In these days why give out too much information. We never know who is reading these posts or why.
On elevated structures the "blue light" equipment is located at the booth in the stations.
It is soooooooooo slow! I'm not talking about the diamond Q, I'm talking about the circle Q. I got on the circle Q at 14th St at 5:25pm and didn't get to Ave J until 6:10pm! So slow! Ok, I'm tired and drunk, so I'll explain more later. Good night.
---Brian
I think you're party too much for one nite.
Exactly. Next time you should stay on the train.
Heh heh. There's always a party on the train. But once in a while you just have to get plain old drunk.
"But once in a while you just have to get plain old drunk. "
No you don't, I haven't been drunk since I was in the Navy (say about 1969 or so)
Elias
Obviously, you've never celebrated Purim.
Also the major drinking holiday just passed Monday. Booze, girls and pool, then riding the subway home. Watch through the railfanwindow when you're buzzed, now there's a sight. :)
Also the major drinking holiday just passed Monday.
Well, despite the name, Saint Patrick's Day is hardly a religious holiday, no matter how it started. At this point it just seems like it's an excuse to get drunk.
then riding the subway home. Watch through the railfanwindow when you're buzzed, now there's a sight
Hmmm, buzzed at the railfan window....never did that. Side windows...yes, front...no.
The drunkest I ever was on the subway was when I was going home from Park Slope one night, and wound up waiting for the F at 4th Ave for what seemed like an eternity just watching G after G going by. The F finally came and I forgot to get off at Smith, bergen, or Carroll because I forgot that I really wanted the G to get to the L at Lorimer. I wound up taking the F to Delancey/Essex for the J instead, a detour I didn't really feel like taking.
(Of course the G's I watched going by were the G's on the express track waiting to go to Smith to start service. Very frustrating seeing the G and not being able to get on them at 4th Ave).
HE wasnt celebrating st pats, he was at a purim party
GP38 Chris is referring to Goumba Tony's post (about St. Patty's Day), not mine (about Purim).
Also the major drinking holiday just passed Monday.
I thought the major drinking holiday was on Tuesday. Monday was a fast day.
Watch through the railfanwindow when you're buzzed, now there's a sight. :)
It's okay, we can get that same view any day on the R-142's.
I thought the major drinking holiday was on Tuesday. Monday was a fast day.
I was thinking of the one day where the Irish supposedly have an excuse to get drunk. Until seeing your posts I didn't even know that the Jewish got drunk on/during Purim.
It's okay, we can get that same view any day on the R-142's.
You're right, wasn't even thinking of that.
I didn't even know that the Jewish got drunk on/during Purim.
It is basically the most joyous holiday of the year. We go all out!
Sounds like fun. I never heard of it either until yesterday when the link to it was posted.
It's not one of the major holidays, like Shavuos -- it's a minor one, in the same category as Chanukah.
(Yes, I'm sure you've never heard of Shavuos but you've certainly heard of Chanukah. Shavuos is biblically ordained while Chanukah and Purim are of rabbinic origin. Shavuos fell out of favor because taking off two days from work in late May or early June is inconvenient, but Chanukah could be easily made into an imitation Christmas.)
I didn't know about it until i was working at Rubie's, its even a costume wearing day apparently. Halloween with alcohol?
It is basically the most joyous holiday of the year.
I thought that was Yom Kippur.
It's at least a close second to Simchas Torah
Yes, Simchas Torah appears to be more joyous since there is a lot of singing and dancing. But there is no mitzvah to get drunk ;)
Yeah, go and try to convince any Chabadnik.
Santo cielo! Is there any holiday you guys have that can be pronounced?
Nyet...
That one wasn't a holiday. A Chabadnik is a member of the Chabad-Lubavitch group of chasidim. (ObSubway: A lot of them live in Crown Heights, so you may run into them on the 3 train.) Chabadniks tend to find many excuses to drink -- such as being awake.
Argh; Yeshiva Sh'or Yoshuv in Far Rockaway has misled me all these years...
GEE..I am getting the feeling that someone is not to fond of the Q train.......
Don't get me wrong. Back in the days when there was only one Q train, I loved the Q train. But now that there are two, the circle Q gives the diamond Q a bad name :)
"But now that there are two, the circle Q gives the diamond Q a bad name :)"
I AM NOW SICK OF THE Q LINE BASHING, So what, you have TWO 6'S AND TWO 7'S. Why not bash those and leave my Q trains on the Brighton Line alone.
Yo, calm down. It's nothing personal. We are allowed to have our own opinions. And what we're saying isn't even that mean. We're just saying the yellow circle Q is slow. Are you gonna argue that?
---Brian
Not as slow as the R train, remember you rode the Q circle train that took forever at the height of the PM rush hour. If you rode the Q line on weekends, it's a breeze to get to/from Brooklyn. You can complete the trip in under 50 minutes, not bad since it does not share with any other line on nights and weekends EXCEPT the W and R line weekend G.O.s over the Manny-Bridge.
Don't worry,he just complain's because he clearly doesn't understand what happen's during times when train's run slow.Good thing I decided to take the time in another post to tell him the reason's.Hopefully now he'll understand.
Don't get me wrong. Back in the days when there was only one Q train, I loved the Q train. But now that there are two, the circle Q gives the diamond Q a bad name :)
Circle Q's, Diamond Q's....it'sw all confusing anyway....THE local should be a different letter anyway. I'ts only a letter. If the D was back, there would be no complaints about the Q, because the D waould be the local and the Q would be the express, and everyone would be complaining about the D. Would everyone be complaining about ther Q if the circle Q was a different letter? I think not. The orange Q used to run on the Manhattan Bridge when the other side was closed, then no one was complaining about it. The truth is the circle Q doesn't stand for Quick in it's current form. It is slow. Can't wait till 2004 and the D is back.
Alright, I think I'm babbling....this time I think I had too much to drink tonight.
I didn't say anything about the Q. I like the Q. My only complaint is the total lack of speed between Canal and Prospect Park.
I have the same complaint.
And what? There's nothing to complain about in the first place.It is very obvious that you don't understand the reason's for a 'lack of speed'.You just think they go slow for the hell of it and that is not the case.Keep in mind the Q share's the bridge with the W and it's brother the diamond Q,then there are connection's to be made,plus some signal's are what I call 'timer signal's' which means for example there are 3 signal's ahead of the train.The first is green,the second is yellow and of course the third is red with a white ball at the bottom of the signal.THAT signal is the 'timer signal' The train always has to slow down to a certain speed so the signal will turn green.Now that I have told you the reason's for the sometime's slow speed on the Q from Canal St-Prospect Pk....you should see that is not that the train sucks,it's all these things that contribute to slow speed and quite frankly,nobody can do anything about it.Just be patient that is all there is too it. But it's never right to say a train sucks cause that is not true at all.
Well. in summary...Q doesn't stand for the Quick train.
Just to set the record straight SBF out here in California did NOT start this post, although I am amused that there are those of you back east who are bagging on the Brighton. My buddy Bob is probably frothing at the mouth. No, the Q Train does not suck, maybe just snorts a little.
And the N train is sick on weekends, it throws up too much. That's why it's not running this weekend.
That's okay. A lot of Jews don't know there's anything to Purim other than the drinking.
That's okay. A lot of Jews don't know there's anything to Purim other than the drinking.
Huh? I think you meant to say that there are a lot of Jews who don't know about the drinking on Purim.
No, I meant what I said. And I think you're still drunk.
No, I think YOU'RE the one who is still drunk.
Kinda like other groups on a certain day (won't mention the day again).
^^^"Kinda like other groups on a certain day (won't mention the day again)."^^^
Each group has their day to go all out and *****. What about the
1st Sunday of October in New York City? My lansmen stir up a storm.
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Oh yes, I've been there, I remember I was dead drunk boy who collapsed on the E Train on my 17th birthday (1997) thanks to my friends whose been trying to get back at me for pulling a nasty stunts on them. Luckly, they were still there and take me home after I collasped. And no one was on the train besides 6 of us and unknown numbers of people on the next car. Next day, a conductor who works on the E get me strange look with smiley face.
Well with friends like that, who needs enemies :)
Enemies? You kidding? We've been friends since infants. Of course, there are ups and downs, but we're always there for each others no matters how bad it when, now 3 of them is in Iraq defending our nation from the devil creatures. My prayers are with them and their safe return, Now, me and my 3 other brothers look after their love ones.
It was a joke.
Well of course if you get held frequently then it'll take that long but a ride on the Qlocal should NOT take 45mins from 14st-AvJ.
Hmmm, this looks like an American Pig thread...looks like you've been out with David G. At least you didn't suggest that they should tear the Q train down along with the Astoria El and the East River.
No, Greenberger was holding his own back here in Manhattan. I went down to Brooklyn to party.
But let me say this: They should tear down the Brighton Local tracks, all of the tunnels between the Manny B and Prospect Park, and the Manny B itself. Then they should replace them with a track structure capable of supporting speeds faster than 20mph!!!!!
---Brian
I am quite suprised at you bashing my Q Brighton Line. From end to end, the Q circle should take no more than 50 minutes, via. the bridge, about 5-7 minutes longer during rush hour. Maybe you got held at Dekalb Ave (happens too often), maybe sharing train traffic with two other routes from 34th st/B'way to just north of Dekalb Ave made the train your were on slow. You offered no explaination at to why it took 45 minutes (but that is the norm during rush hour) from 14th/US to Ave J. Maybe you shouldv'e waited for your favorite train, a RF friendly slant R40, took that to my stop (Newkirk Ave), took some pics. of the the Plaza renovation currently underway for others to see, and got the next train to Ave J.
Ok, I'm sorry, here is the whole story in a short version. I entered the station at 23 & Broadway to get an N/R sb at about 5:20pm. Saw a bunch of Q/Q/W's go by until an R came. Took that to 14 St - US. Stepped out of the R and a slant-40 diamond Q is just pulling out. Then a W comes. Then finally a circle Q. Took the circle Q all the way to Ave J. I'm not saying that the circle Q ride was longer than normal (because I rode it or the diamond Q every day for 7 months in 2001), just that the whole ride was so slow! If they'd just pick up the pace a bit they could for sure cut at least 5 minutes off the ride. And more importantly, psychologically, it would be easier to deal with (just like how an express seems a lot faster than a local). As a side note, the next diamond Q after my circle Q didn't pass us out until Ave J, which means that if I had pased on the circle Q at Union Square and waited for the diamond Q, that diamnond Q would not have made the connection for me at Newkirk and I'd have to have waited for the next circle Q.
And now you know why the BMT was sometimes referred to as "Barely Moving Trains".
--Mark
The Never and Rarely don't help either!
It takes an wverage of about 25 min to get from 14th street to ave J on the Q local. The Q ususally runs like clockwork due to it's rather short run to 57/7 to brighton beach
It's 28 min. from 14th St/US to Ave J on Q local. Add 4-5 minutes northbound if traveling during AM rush hours, because of longer dwell times at express stations, and heavy Manny-B train traffic.
Maybe it was other drunks holding the doors. Maybe your drunken self was screwing with the doors and you just don't remember. :)
No, I'm talking about the ride to Brooklyn. This was before I was drunk. I was coming from work. The ride back to Manhattan on the circle Q wasn't so bad. Riding the subways drunk/buzzed is really cool. You can't be mad, only happy.
Remember those words, Brian, when your drunken self falls and you get to experience the underside of a revenue train up close and personal. And to think, I only took this week off so I wouldn't have to deal with the Irish.
Listen, my friends and I are responsible people. I obviosly wasn't *that* drunk because I remember everything that happened. In fact, I don't know what the strict definition of drunk is (I think I'll look it up) but when I got on the subway, I had already stopped drinking an hour before. Believe me, if I or my friends were in such a state that we couldn't stand up or were falling all over the place, we WOULDN'T be anywhere near the subway. Some of my friends were not drinking and they knew exactly what was going on. There were many safeguards in place to ensure that it was a fun and safe night. I appreciate your warning, but I'm just saying that we're not the kind of people that would end up on a subway platform totally plastered. But I feel bad for those people that do...
In fact, I don't know what the strict definition of drunk is (I think I'll look it up)
I posted it yesterday. Chayav inish livsumei ad d'lo yada bein arur Haman l'baruch Mordechai.
Oh, the strict definition according to somebody else. I get it.
Not to get into a debate about what "drunk" and "responsible" are but a friend and I went to Exit last year and he had a lot to drink. Always swore he was alright. I happen to see him get in a cab and chased it (kinda) to Columbus Circle. Again, he swore he was alright, but if I wasn't there, he would have been a 12-9 (caught him walking straight for the platform edge).
My point is when you drunk you may think you're still in control but you not be. Just be safe out there...
People have been putting up some pretty obscure pictures for ID lately, so here is mine.
Obviously a very old photo, this elevated structure no longer looks like this, but the line still runs, and I wager quite a few SubTalkers have ridden it.
I think you'll be interested in the answer:
F train, @ McDonald & Ave I
HELL NO
Somewhere on the Jamaica El perhaps?
-Stef
Judging by the stairs, I'd guess Marcy Ave.
Looking at the street, Maybe Van Sicklen Ave.
I'm with you Stef. I believe we're looking north on a side street at the Jamaica El.
I said before it might be Marcy Ave because of the way the stairs look. I also said Van Sicklen Ave. Now I think it might be Crescent St. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks the front of the big Church on the block west of Crescent St and north of Fulton St.
I'm sure this is a station on the J line. Likely one of the stations from Crescent to Alabama.
Also, look good into the background (near the horizon). Looks like the crest of a hill -- Highland Park, Perhaps?
If the structure wasn't there I could see if the Church has 2 towers. Then I'd say Crescent St
Woodside, 7 train.
121st st Jamaica. The El structure is high, maybe to go over the LIRR, and I see hills in the background that could be Kew Gardens. The sun also shines in that direction. That's my guess.
I agree, it sure does look like Jamaica Avenue. The only thing is though, that the Jamaica Ave el was never rebuilt AFAIK to replace an older el (which is what this el looks like). It was built like it is the first time from Cypress Hills east. All the stationsetc looked basically the way they do now. It was dual contracts looking right from the begining. I could be wrong, but I think we can rule out east of Cypress Hills. No doubt though it sure does look like what you said in the backround!
Well, it's an unrebuilt el from what it looks like. Since you said the line still runs, I'm trying to think of unrebuilt els. Most of the els were rebuilt by 1920, and sicne there are cars (no idea of the years of the cars) so that would only leave something between Alabama or Crescent Street on the J.
Another possiblility would be in the Bronx, somewhere between 3 Aven or East 180the St.
Finially, it could be somewhere on the old Fulton Street el, which technically still is a "line that still runs", just not on an el. I may even go one step further and say it is somehwere on the Liberty portion of the Fulton El.
Well that hardly answers the question, but I think it may narrow it down a bit. It almost has to be somehwere in those sections. Maybe that will make someone else remember something.....
Two way street, high elevation, a hilly park in background. Cannot be Alabam Ave, because the park is too far, but WAIT, there is a subway entrance to the left corner. Could it be one of the following:
Old 45th Rd/Courthouse station/IRT
A station on the 2 and 5 line (Intervale Ave or Freeman St)
Or 75th st side of the 74th st/IRT Flushing line subway station,, (with the entrance of Roosevelt Ave/IND) on left corner.
People keep saying it's Cresecent Street. How can it be Crescent St? The platform is obviously an outer platform, two outer platforms-a local station. Cresecnt Street is an island platform in the center between the two tracks. It can't be Marcy Av because the canopy of the platform is too short. Are you sure that's a hill in the background and not a row of houses on a curved street?
Could it be Van Sicklen on the J then? Last week someone here said that that station was built as a two side platform station.
Van Siclen Ave station is too low, it's a high elevated platform, with cross-girders (ala White Plains Road and Flushing Lines) underneath. Only Alabama Ave would be close enough, but remember there is a IND style subway station on the corner.
You sure those are subway globes and not the type of globes you'd have found outside, for instance, police precincts?
I'm sure when we all find out where this photo was taken, we'll know about the building in the background, the foreground and the El above ground.
Possible, very good illusion, but the right globe looks like it heads toward the ground and not attached to the building. And what about the poles diagonally across the street? The parked car on the left side makes it more difficult to spot things.
Correct. The globes are too close to the building for them to be associated with a subway entrance. They appear to be situated on either side of the doorway. With the flag on the roof I'd guess that the structure is one of three posibilities: Post Office, VFW hall, or Police Station.
Weren't globes a relatively recent TA innovation? Or was that just the red-yellow-green color scheme?
No, the IRT had round globes, one blue and one white. The IND had sorta squarish globes, one green and one white. And the BMT had pretty iron faceted globes.
Keep in mind this is an old photo. Whereever this photo was taken it was taken I'd say in the 1920's (1930's?) era. Judging by the cars in the photo. The building on the left with the 2 large bulbs around the door looks like a VFW hall.
I'm sure when Paul tells us the answer, we'll all be kicking ourselfs.
I'm making a guess as to there the station is. Where do you say it is?
I have no idea. What's throwing me off is the entrance on the left. This station has a strange entrance. This station is obviously a complex, with an underground counterpart. Can't be Myrtle/Wyckoff or 62nd Street/New Utrecht 'cause the platforms aren't right. My guess is either 161 St-Yankee Stadium/River Avenue, or perhaps 74 Street-Broadway/Roosevelt Avenue.
Paul is probably sitting back laughing at our guesses as to where this photo is.
It looks like the El is on a private ROW. It looks like the girders would block anything cruising under it.
No. Look closely -- the El is NOT straddling the street, but appears to be over a private ROW along the sidewalk! (Unless my perception is off).
Holy crap, you are right! There's even a stairway under it. Now where the hell can it be?!
It looks like stairways from the platform to the street. But the bottom of the stairways are around the corner out of the picture.
By chance Paul, is this the Tiffiny line in the Bronx?
Oh no................
It looks too old, plus the Structure in The Tiffany Iron Works shop is in a highly industrial area.
You're the expert on the Bronx. I was just making a guess.
You're the expert on the Bronx. I was just making a guess.
Isn't the el at Tiffany Iron Works part of the dismantled Jamaica el that was between Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd, or is that something else?
You are correct...it's a 'fake' Bronx El...
Hey! Hey! At least in the BRONX, every third el pillar is made of rubber. Useful for when your Chrysler goes out of control. Whaddya Brooklyn guys got? I'll tell ya - cement walls that turn the Chrysler into splinters. As Garrett Morris once said playing "Idi VD Amin," "rubber break, but I can't talk about it." :)
That is a great old Bronx joke.
You had to remember wher to start counting.
It probably had something to do with the number of bars in the Bronx.
It was not such a good joke for some Fire Dept ladder units that used to wrap themselves anound the pillars.
Maybe that's Paul's trick. This is the Jamaica el, which many SubTalkers have ridden. The elevated structure no longer looks like this, since it's in a different neighborhood entirely, and the line still runs, though not in revenue service.
Just a wild guess.
Good guess, and obviously there is some trick here. The only thing is though the Jamaica Ave EL still looks like it always did. All the stations (and the ones gone also) had mezzanines under the tracks, and the platforms looked like they do now right from the beginning. The el in the photo is not a dual contracts el and Jamaica Ave didn't replace any older el, it was built like it is the first time. It can't be anywhere between Cypress Hills and 160th St. It could however be anywhere between Marcy and Cypress Hills as an old el ran all along that segment before what is there now..
Tiffany Line? What's that?
All of the existing elevated structures in the Bronx still appear as they were built.
Only the 3rd Ave line south of 144th on PROW to the Harlem River was expanded from a sing;e level to a double-deck structure. That line no longer exists. And, the cars post date that occurance.
You guys have come up with some really great observations. I picked out this photo because it has a real New York feel to it, but it is NOT New York. I'm a little surprised noone thought of that, since people instantly figured that Jersey Mike's blurry night shots weren't on the subway.
If I didn't know what the photo was my first guesses would probably have been old Van Sicklen Ave on the Jamaica or Sutter on the Canarsie, though closer examination would kill at the least the former.
OK, some clues, some of which you've come up with yourself.
It is USA.
The line was elevated and single track (at this location) when this pic was taken, and still is.
The line runs next to, not over the road, and still does.
The photo is 1930 or 1931, and the occasion of the picture was that the pictured station was soon to be replaced with a more modern facility.
Perhaps a clue would be the housing stock. The housing in this general area pretty much looks the same today.
This particular line is a railfan favorite, thus my observation that many, if not most, SubTalkers who have ventured beyond the city have ridden it.
Any more than that, and I would probably be spelling it out. I'll answer yes/no questions, if you have them.
So you are talking about an elevated line in Philly.
I'll go with Philadelphia too.
"but it is NOT New York."
That narrows it down a little.
So far we're ALL wrong!
Is it the H&M Tubes line when it at one time went to another part of Newark?
BTW, Subway-buff probably would have guessed the answer right away.
Is it the H&M Tubes line when it at one time went to another part of Newark?
That is another really well thought-out guess. You've had a lot of good observations.
But it is not H&M.
Newark Subway?
Way off, CANNOT be Newark City Subway. Never was built THAT high.
After all the guesses we've made and it wasn't NYC, I'm grasping at straws!
I share your feelings too, many other subtalkers (including myself) are doing the same thing you are too. After that surprise clue, we all could use a drink or two being tricked again.
Kool-D, you and Peter were on the right track. Here's a big (I think) hint. This was a terminal. But it was also a way station.
Cannot be 69th st terminal, but it may be Broad Street line. Since I haven't been to the MF and BS lines, I'm only guessing at this point.
Dave got the right answer. If you still want to think about it, the hint wouldn't apply to 69th Street. It is a terminal for lines going in different sirections, but it is only a terminal, not a way station, unless you want to count bus lines that might stop adjacent to the building.
Wasn't there some kind of Elevated trolley lined in or near Hoboken? I wonder if the El photo is part of that?
Is this a Chicago El station? Maybe on the south side, King Dr, Cottage Grove or the like?
wayne
No.
Is this a NY Central or New Haven Line?
-Stef
No. But it is a third rail line.
It has to be LIRR or nothing! Heh.
-Stef
I was thinking it might be Philadelphia myself but it's not the Market St. el (no Market St) and that certainly doesn't look like 1930s Phialdelphia row house housing stock that still exists along the entire M-F el.
But, sticking with Philly... single track, was a terminal AND a way station-- Norristown station of the P&W (route 100?) Wasn't the line cut back to the current station in the 80s? I remember the terminal being in the side wall of a building when I was a kid in the 70s. I have no idea what Norristown would have looked like in the 1930s though.
-Dave
But, sticking with Philly... single track, was a terminal AND a way station-- Norristown station of the P&W (route 100?) Wasn't the line cut back to the current station in the 80s? I remember the terminal being in the side wall of a building when I was a kid in the 70s. I have no idea what Norristown would have looked like in the 1930s though.
Ding ding ding ding!!!!
It is old old Norristown terminal. It was a way station for the Liberty Bell Limiteds, which continued on the surface and under wire. For your reward, here is a shot nearby and about a year later:
Ahh the view I remember is the El ending at the edge of that building. Wish I had some pictures from back then. I don't even think I ever rode it when I lived down there.
I remember the old Norristown terminal well. I rode that line before they cut it back to the new site. In the second photo, the Brill Bullets really give it away. I loved the way the old terminal looked like it was hanging off the side of the building!
Chuck Greene
Dave, add these two to your P&W page, if you like. They're from my collection, and you already know the captions.
Woo-hoo! Liberty Bell Limited! You can still ride one at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
Ah, but you can't ride it from 69th to Allentown (snif!). Must have been quite a ride, but before my time. Maybe I'll be able to ride the Schuylkill Valley Metro and make believe... :)
...BTW, #1030 is scheduled for a cosmetic upgrade (paint and perhaps a little mechanical work) this summer. Hope to see all you folks up North for a ride this year!
Yup! I'll be putting some $$ into that project myself. #1030 is one of the best riding cars (and most fun to run!) we have.
So how about an updated picture of the answer
And see Here for a view from the 60's which I didn't even know I had!
Hey, Paul....I WAS CLOSE after all! New Jersey Hi-line trolley...so I was ONE state off! :(
You were DEFINITELY headed in the right direction! ;-)
Paul! You opened a Pandora's box for me! I may have had the answer all along and didn'teven know it until i just looked at the answer here! I don't know if you if you have seen my Let the Games Begin thread, but in the shoebox of photos mentioned there, I found a whole bunch of what I think may be the same station!
I was going to post them as a "Mystery Photo" thread to help me find out what they are. So does this seem like the same station? Did that have anything to do with "Red Arrow"? It looks like it may be the same station (not that I would have been able to answer the original photo of yours from this)
I haven't had a chance to read all the responses to your thread here yet, but will shortly.
Here are some more photos of what seem to be the same type of train in a different station. Could this be on the same line. All the photos (including the ones in the above post) are dated August 1964.
Oops, I forgot to add the photo codes.
Here are some more photos of what seem to be the same type of train in a different station. Could this be on the same line. All the photos (including the ones in the above post) are dated August 1964. Any idea where these photos are
Not enough to see location of the first, but the last two are new 69th Street terminal.
"Red Arrow Lines" was another name for Philadelphia Suburban Transit Co.
Yeah, Obviously I didn't expect anyone to get the location of the first photo. I just threw that one in. I'm so glad you started this thread, I have been looking at those photos wondering where they were taken since I was a kid in the 70's and my father came home with that box of photos.
Is 69th St terminal on the other end of the line?
Is 69th St terminal on the other end of the line?
Yes. Your dad is a railfan?
No. That's the strange thing. He doesn't dislike trains, but I wouldn't call him a railfan, and I wasn't one back then either. He actually used to say he hated the subway (he was a daily user in the 70's) Deep down, I think he really liked it (but wouldn't admit it), and is quite impressed about how improved it is now.
He was however a photographer in his younger years, but not of trains. I don't know what made him buy the box of photos. I have no idea who took the photos. And my father doesn't even remember where he bought the box of photo (almost 25 years ago). My guess is that whoever took the photos probably died, and his heirs was selling his stuff. The box must have been cheap (or my father wouldn't have bought them). The box also contained some trolley photos, and bus photos also (I'm not really a busfan, but I think they are mostly from the 60's).
Here are a couple more recent photos of the P&W portion of 69th Street Terminal, from a different angle.
Yes, Chris, those are the LibertyLiners ex-North Shore ElectroLiners in Norristown Station.
Ironically the LL/ELs ran on third rail on the Chicago els, then switched to overhead for their trip to Milwaukee, then they ended their careers on another line which used third rail for the inner portion and at one time had interurbans which used overhead past Norristown.
^^^"Yes, Chris, those are the LibertyLiners ex-North Shore ElectroLiners in Norristown Station."^^^
And the uniqueness is that there were only two Electroliner Sets
built and they are still preserved in 2003.
One set still maintains the Red Arrow Liberty Liner Paint, but had
the Trolley Poles reattached as its EL status is at the Rockhill
Trolley Museum, Orbisonia, PA.
The other set return Midwest to the Illinois Railway Museum and has
been restored to it North Shore Garb. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Interesting. How long did they run on the line in the photos, and when were they retired?
I don't have the dates, but they were only on the Norristown Line for a few years. The main problem was that the they drew too much power for the lines infrastructure. I was told the motormen had to watch the ammeter like a hawk while accelerating, and that was a major problem with a line with so many stops. They were made for a ~90 mile line, not a ~14 mile one.
The railfan who chose to sit in the second seat rather than the railfan seat (beautiful view through picture window from front seat could watch the speedometer and ammeter because the motorman generally kept his door open. The best start (on the portion that I rode from Radnor to 69th Street) was inbound at Bryn Mawr, because it was uphill. The ammeter was redlined at 600 amps, but the train wouldn't start to move until it reached about 660 or so. The motorman usually notched it up to 700 amps, then notched it up again when it got down to 600 until a decent speed was achieved and/or the top of the hill was reached.
They were taken out of service when a power substation at Villanova blew because they drained too much current from the system. When the substation was replaced, one of the Liners was put back into service, but it was then realized that the mass of the train wreaked havoc on the track and necessitated toomuch track repair work.
"Independence Hall" at Rockhill Trolley Museum, and inside bar car.
Electroliner at Illinois Railway Museum
Chuchubob,
Thanks for the photo links and history of their service on Red Arrow
Lines. Unfortunately, while they were in service in the East,
my railfanning was restricted due to personal situation at home.
So I have never had the pleasure of riding one of these unique units.
8-) ~ Sparky
Prior to the delivery of the Bullets, the P&W terminated in the street, across from the building and alongside the square. The street slopes up from the intersection and the structure lowered slightly. The overhead began at the east end of the building, and the third rail stopped as the track moved into the street.
In those days, the P&W equipment all carried trolley poles and were all two-man, so the conductor handled the poles.
When the Bullets came, the P&W terminal was moved to the new, high platform one that hung off the building. (Not really, the platform was suspended by the el girders. The el was a single collumn structure that looked more fragile than it was. It did bear the weight of the Liners.)
The 160's (P&W's "old cars" in the 1960's) started life in the 60 series in the 1920's and were built with train doors and trolley poles. The rebuilding in the 1930's resulted in the appearance we all remembered.
From a fan perspective they were the fun cars to ride, as their control group was inside, not hung under the car. It hung over the #1 end door, so a trip on a '60 was puncuated by the hissing and popping of the group switch.
For pure speed, the Bullets had no equal. A two car train of Bullets was the electric version of getting shot out of a cannon. Even in the 1970's the standar operating practice with a Bullet was after a passenger stop the controller was advances to the parallel point before the brakes were released. The accleration was always a push you back in the seat one.
Today, the N5's are nice, 90's cars. Not the equal of a Bullet.
I thought I just said that.
It looks like a curb at the site where the El goes over the street. But the girders seems to block anything that would be running under the El.
Douce Man, you implied that it was in the street by saying that the girders 'block anything running under it'. As it is on a private ROW there SHOULDN'T BE anything running under it anyway (Like the Franklin Shuttle on the El section).
It looks like a curb just before the street gets to the El. The girders look like it would prevent anything from running under it.
Could it be the Franklin Shuttle?
No, it's a two way street according to the picture. Lefferts Pl (the block south of Fulton St, is one way.),
Can't judge by the street being 'two-way', because back in those days of few automobiles, almost every street in Brooklyn was two-way unless otherwise designated (as is the current practice in some parts of Queens and most of Nassau County).
BTW, it's too tall to be the Franklin Shuttle.
The only "El" that still runs over anything even resembling a private ROW is the F crossing 4th Ave, with the 4th Ave BMT station under it.
There is also the M line from after Seneca Ave to Fresh Pond Road.
Oh.
Why does everyone keep thinking that that building on the left has anything to do with the subway. I agree with the people that are saying that it is probably a post office, police station, VFW Hall or something. I don't think it has anything to do with the subway, it's just a building along the el.
Some people look at the bulbs and think it's an IND subway entrance. With the parked car blocking the view, it's hard to see clearly.
Personally I think the photo predates the IND.
I agree with you. This looks like a pre-1930 photo - before the IND was around anyway, besides, the building has a flag on it. It's a post office or something.
By the way, it IS an official building, and not a subway entrance. There's even a flag on that building. Definitely a post office, police station, VFW Hall, Bank or something - not subway entrance.
The height of the station is the key.
It may be the original Canarsie extension from ENY or the original Jamacia structure out of ENY.
The stairs do look like a station on the White Plains Road line, so it would be either (because of the high elevation), Intervale Ave or Freeman St, or maybe a station on the 3 line (Junius St?)
I was even thinking Canarsie Line ala around Livonia or Sutter...but it's too high.
Here's an off the wall guess: something along the L line south of bway junction, perhaps sutter?
2 key considerations: the el is over a private ROW, running next to a very narrow looking street - and if it is a significantly old enough photo, the LIRR bay ridge branch may not have been dropped below grade yet (not sure when that was done - but if you look closely to the right under the el there is what could be some sort of platform there, even if you can't see the track on the ground)
Sutter Ave has only one staircase at each end on each platform, there are two staircases close enough together.
Yeah but, it could have been remodled sometime in the last 80 years since the photo was taken. He may be on to something.
The Belmont Avenue exit at Sutter Avenue station (L) was removed.
However, I don't see the crook-armed lamps of 1906 vintage in the photo, so Sutter it isn't.
Perhaps this is on the section of 2nd/3rd Avenue "L" up in the Bronx, below 149th Street?
wayne
It's a structure that still exists as the current line today, so the numbered els. are out of the equation.
Yeah, more and more that I think about it, I'm getting the feeling that we're looking at an El in da Bronx...
What? Who? Where? It doesn't look like anything that I recognize.
-Stef
Damned Bwooklyn kidz ... only "Bronx" they've seen was on HBO. :)
I have been to Yankee Stadium, Bronx Zoo, Arthur Ave, Fordham and Hub shopping districts, Co-Op city (including all of Bay Plaza), Macy's in Parkchester, Ballys club in Riverdale, even walked over Willis and 145th st Bridges, not to mention visiting every subway and Metro-North station in DA BRONX.
And I was born and raised in Brooklyn all my beautiful life.
Heh. Just busting, but have you hung out on Sedgewick? White Plains Road and 233rd? Fordham and Valentine? Claremont Parkway? Intervale? Ah! Bronx kids fear NO ONE. One phears US! :)
I have been in Soundview and East 138th st, as an added plus, walked over old Pedestrain bridges on the Triborough Bridge from Queens to the Bronx, so you have a good idea where I landed when I got to East 134th st.
Da HUB! :)
Saint Ann's ... oh so many places that made "Fort Apache" famous. Granted, I packed it in when I got shot one inch below my right nut, moved upstate and learned that gang-bangers need to learn how to AIM da gun. Heh. Amazingly though, the Bronx was actually pretty civilized, even when it burned. So much of the bravado is nonsense, but I *love* how people *cringe* when I tell them I was born, raised, and came of age in Da Bronx ... heh. That's one bit of "instant kewl" for no good reason that they can't take away from me. Heh.
The Bronx, known for settling pretyt much everything at the business end of a Louisville Slugger. Must be that bastard baseball team, as a BRONX BOY, I was a METS fan - THEY have soul. Steingrabber had BUCKS. Money didn't impress us, SOUL did. Dunno what THIS has with it all, but us Bronx boys and girls were contrarians, a habit I've NEVER got past. :)
MATUS? BRONX? Wowsers, man! Put DOWN the quack pipe! :)
The more I look at it, the more I am thinking that this el may be along some sort of RR ROW. If that is true, it could be somewhere along the L line.
Still it's too tall for the Canarsie L line. And the station house makes for an island platform -- definitely not a signature of the Canarsie Line, even back then.
I don't see anything that looks like an island platform?
I dunno about that ... the only place I can think of where the El is kind of tall, and sits next to, but not over, a narrow street is the Canarsie Line structure between Atlantic & Sutter Aves - the part of the structure that has today's southbound Canarsie line. It looks very much like the corner of Van Sinderen Avenue and Liberty Avenue in that respect. But I don't see the LIRR behind it, unless its behind the camera, which I doubt because the LIRR is right next to the structure.
--Mark
Look closely though. Doesn't it seem like there is some sort of ROW right next to the el in that photo, either at street level, or below grade?
Yes, there appears to be an easement of some kind along side the El structure, but doubt it's the LIRR cut as the distance is not wide enough. And IIRC, there is usually a little 'hump in the road' at streets that cross above the Bay Ridge Line.
Not at that intersection (Liberty & Van Sinderen), though, best I recollect. I'm going on memoery from my trip there last November.
--Mark
One thing I am positive on: The control house at the top of the el. is definitely somewhere on the WPR/IRT line.
In the NY Post of 3/18/03 there was a legal notice (page 63 IIRC), that the TA wants to put out for bid a contract for another 80 R142 type cars. The only stipulation is that the builder must be the same one as the manufacturer of the R142 or R142A. More BOMBardiers? It's a possibility!
Doubtful. I think if Transit has it's way, Kawasaki will produce those cars. Should be interesting.... 80 additional cars will do wonders for the IRT. Exactly what will come of this remains to be seen!
-Stef
It'll depend on who is the low bidder between the two ... wonder if Kawa WANTS to do the TA shuffle again. :)
I heard that it was for another 80 R143's not R142's. I got this from my TSS on the L line. I heard the back on Friday but did not post it becouse he said it was just a BUFF rummer.
Robert
Heh. TSS' can gas off just like any subtalker. :)
A fellow operator indicated that they picked this up from "the NY Post of 3/18/03 there was a legal notice (page 63 IIRC)" so for anyone who bothers to read that fishwrap, the answer should be there. Wonder if there's any libraries that would keep a copy of that tripe on their shelves without having to fumigate? Heh.
FWIW, I *liked* running a 143. It was pretty neat actually. But my right wrist told me that 8 hours a day or more of it would be a serious "owwie" after a while. Maybe on the new ones (assuming it's a 143 that's being reupped) they can move that damned joystick somewhere less fatiguing ...
Maybe on the new ones (assuming it's a 143 that's being reupped) they can move that damned joystick somewhere less fatiguing ...
You guys make it sound like a video game. Is it really that much fun, or do they actually call it a joystick?
Take a look right under the window - see that thing with a Tee handle that looks like a joystick? That's the controller AND the brake, all in one handle ...
I did not see the post on the day he read, so I was just putting in what I heard for the my TSS what he heard from another Subtalker that he knows.
As for the controller being in the wrong place, your right it sould have been put in the middle, I said this when I 8101 comming off the truck the night it was delivered. I doute that they will change it if they do order anymore of them, since they would have to change the control area.
Robert
Had a feeling you handn't spotted the source of the "rumor" ... sure hope you're not offended by my mentioning it ... I *ran* 8101 while it was "temporarily out of revenue service" at the hands of a buddy who kept his hands ready to smack mine if I screwed up. Frankly, I *like* the way she accelerated, much like the 32's BEFORE GOH. NICE takeoff, also got to play with full service and let the computer take over - took her full throttle to the bars mid-platform and pulled, she came to a NICE smooth stop. I felt so *superfluous* at the controls. :)
But yeah, after the joyride on Christmas day (I can snitch since my buddy and the TSS and the Kawasaki guy are all out of NYCTA now) I got to REALLY like the 143 (I'm an old Arnine hound, so my saying this MEANS something heh) but after just half a trip at the handle, my right wrist was getting a bit snotty - had to shake my hand several times and the run out to Brooklyn under the river did make me have to wait until we'd stopped to really unwring a knot in my wrist without risking dumping her ... I'm a rightie and it got awkward, I can only IMAGINE the torture for a southpaw ... ouch. :(
But I was glad to have had the privilege of a joyride WEEKS before Paturkey showed up - and they didn't let *him* in the cab while it rolled. SWEET! Heh.
But yeah, I can see that position being a BIG problem for 8 hours. BIG problem.
I am a rightie as well, it took me about two weeks or so to get used to it. Back in Sept. of last year there were only a hand full of R143's running. Now with only two or three trains of R42's on the L, I can go a few days without having one. Last week out of the four days I work the L, I made 1 1/2 round trip with an R42's. The one trip was only a shuttle to Broardway Junction and back to Rockaway. The R143's are one of the main reasons I stood on the L next pick.
Robert
What *I* figured out as quickly as I could was the insanity of our Japanese brothers in learning HOW to put your forearm on that transformer hump behind it, and learn to run your wrist in a semi-circle with a "relaxed" arm ... it was almost tolerable THAT way as my sensei admonished me to "relax ... this train is meant to be run by the FORCE ... limp that arm, only fingers need move train" ... strange as it seemed, it WORKED ... I grasped the DESIGN. As long as you don't try to LIFT your arm, you'll make it to the Junction before your hand falls asleep. :)
DAMNED strange. I have to assume that they run a sword through lefties before they reach puberty in Nihon. Heh.
Southpaws would love Denver's LRVs. The controller joystick is on the operator's left and has a padded area for resting your forearm. It does not, however, have the deadman's feature. IIRC there's a foot pedal the operator has to press down. There is a second pedal for blowing the horn.
You "heard" but I "read". It is definitely for another 80 R142's. Get the paper! Why would they wanna order 80 more R143's when they already have an order for R160's?
If the MTA really does plan to contract for another 80 cars, given the time frame of the bidding process and the construction involved, the remaining Redbirds will probably have another 18 month to two years in service -- If the IRT needs 80 more cars badly enough for the MTA to place an order during the current state budget situation, the last of the R-33/36s aren't likely to be going anywhere underwater until they arrive.
That should mean the 'Birds will still be plowing the rails (at least during rush hour) by the time the Centennial celebration rolls around in October of 2004, and may even make it into the early part of 2005 before they vanish for good from revenue service.
I saw the bid request it absolutely said 142 and the need was for IRT cars. It did say only those who built 142 or 142a could bid
Alright I stand corrected. I only posted what I heard, that it. The main this that I wounder is why shouch a small number. It only come out to 8 ten car train.
Robert
What if Kawasaki and Bombardier decline to bid?
From a political standpoint, the odds are Bombardier will get the contract. They were left out of the R-160 order (based on their problems with the R-142s deservedly so), but by doing that, it leaves Bombardier with a big fatory up in Plattsburgh with no major nearby contract to produce rail cars, once the last of the current option order is delivered.
Can you say "layoffs" kids? Or "plant closing?" I'm sure Bombardier can, and odds are they've probably said it in private to Peter Kalikow, Pataki and/or some other state and MTA officials. Given the current state of the economy, putting a bunch of people out of work in northern New York probably wouldn't be good public relations for the state's elected officials, even if there problems are due to their own quality of work. Throwing Bombardier another option order of 80 cars is one way to solve the problem.
Kawasaki may end up with the contract, but as of now, I'd bet on the Canadians...
We all of course do not all hang out here exclusively. I would hope that most of us do international things. I myself help Japanese students of English wallow thru prepositions and idiom and otherwise help them do English.
So. The war talk on the 'net, and the international boys and girls who wonder why us Americans believe we have to save the world.
The skipped subject is the fact that US Americans are morally/religously obligated to save the world. We are God's children and His/Her obligations are dumped down from Above onto the US pretty seriously.
Gawd. Us Americans gotta pay for some serious express lines in London before God lets us build the 2nd (and 3rd, viz, Flushing Av/69th St) IND. It's sorta like the Red Sox selling the Babe to the Yankees: He/She is getting even.
Wow, is this going to turn into a seriously off-topic thread!
I would have put in a few cents' worth but I *know* this puppy's gonna die once the winds get past a gale into a bluster. So, since it's going to die, I'll merely opine that it's damned unfortunate that it's all come to this - at the same time I understand that after 9/11, word needs to get out to the ne'er-do-wells of the world that Osama ruined the cause for anyone who would kill innocents for their "cause" and that gig is up. As if the Israeli-Palestininan mess wasn't already proof of this. I only wish that there was another way to accomplish this and that we had, as a nation, projected a better global image to this worthy goal than "there's a new sheriff in town." :(
So go ahead Dave, kill this thread before it kills again ... I'll have nothing else to say in this one.
Engough said!
Unless something major happened in the U.S. (hopefully not!), and unless this war talk thread is related to a rail/subway issue (like increased Police and National Guard presence in the subways and major commuter rail hubs and outlying station), please don't mention anything about the impending war here.
I sure get P**SED, when some troll comes in here and creates an OT.
Gee....
Mixing Politics, War *and* religion into one post!
You sure you wanna do that fellah?
Gee... the firestorm will be more awesome than anything the military has in mind for that dude in iraq!
Or PERHAPS, we can demonstrate some REASONED responses. Nah ... :)
(and I promised my other comment would be my last - I'm zipping it)
No ... mixing politics, war, religion and the London Subway System in hopes that the thread will survive. I'm kind of impressed.
Story Here about decline of dragging incidents.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. I'm glad draggings are down.
---Brian
Yeah, now they just jump in front of the trains instead!
:( Elias
Too bad subway draggings are down. It sounds like it would be fun to "borrow" a few trains with a friend or two and drag race the trains down the Brighton or somewhere.
....running for cover
Ouch! I'm actually GLAD to hear that conductors are managing to watch the platform without getting their heads cut off by wayside doing so. This is truly good news and speaks VOLUMES of the quality of care by TWU members DESPITE that Straphangers nonsense about dirty trains. Somehow to my own mind, people not DYING on the subways is more important.
Glad to hear it.
I do admit it's a mystery to me how anybody with even the thinnest of wrists manages to get it stuck in the door and still have the door close fully. I guess the doors on the older trains still offer a bit more slack.
>>> I do admit it's a mystery to me how anybody with even the thinnest of wrists manages to get it stuck in the door and still have the door close fully. <<<
You need to use a bit of imagination. It is not body parts that get caught in closing doors, it is clothing such as a scarf, a coat or a woman's purse (with a strap on her shoulder).
Tom
Alright, here's another one. Let's see if this will be easier than the last one. A starting hint is that this station photo is taken sometime around 1992-1993.
Here's a link for the larger version. (They won't let me link to it so you have to cut and paste).
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pd9fa6224b2fb5abccec1b5ed29c211b3/fc7b216a.jpg.orig.jpg
That ice station in 'The Thing.' :D
When you post a Guess The Photo it really helps to provide a context that has some clues so that someone who has never really noticed the location before can guess it.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot all about this thread.
Okay. Well, this is an in use commuter station. In the photo, the, the original building was abandoned, and they built a new station to the left of where the station is in the photo. The station in the photo has now been demolished. It used to be a quiet little one track "outpost", but has exploded into an unrecognizable spot at this point.
It is in the New York area, and I know many people here are familiar with this station (although it doesn't look like this today, but did less than 10 years ago).
So for those who want to try for the location, click "First in thread". It's not as hard as it seems.
Is it Wassaic NY on the extended Harlem Line?
No, not Wassaic. This station building was in use until a few years before they replaced it with a more modern station (that's why it looks abandoned). If I give the actual Railroad, I'm afraid I'll give the answer away, but it is either Metro North or the LIRR to narrow out NJT.
The big clue is "a little tiny one track outpost has exploded into something unrecognizable from this scene".
If it is NJT, I would say Matawan. If it's the LIRR, Riverhead. If it's Metro-North, Dover Plains...once again.
It's not NJT at all, it's not Riverhead or Dover Plains (old buildings still exist today).
I can't give another clue without giving it away, but why would a station become a major stop all of a sudden. Something happened here in the 80's. It always was an important stop, but it became a MAJOR stop.
OK, last shot, then I'm throwing in the towel. Is it Oyster Bay, Mineola, or Babylon?
Shoot, all wrong (right Railroad though). I can see no one is going to get this, so I give up too. Here's the clue that should give it away.
This station didn't always have a third rail in front of it, and got it in the 80's. The coming of the third rail wrote the death sentence for this poor building. There was no way this poor little "country" station would be able to handle the crowds that were about to come.
Ronkonkoma!
Dave
6A Ronkonkoma Rail Road
Is it Ronkonkoma?
Yep, believe it or not, that station was the Ronkonkoma Station until 1987. The original location of the station (and it's small parking lot) was on the north side of the tracks, just west of the current high level platform.
Central Islip?
How about Port Jefferson Station?
No, because as GP38 Chris stated:
"This station didn't always have a third rail in front of it, and got it in the 80's. The coming of the third rail wrote the death sentence for this poor building."
Oh yeah, don't know what I was thinking, must have been in a fantasy world
Speaking of Ronkonkoma....now, there's a location that's amazingly NOT what you'd expect a major commuting hub to look like. Shows you the difference between Long Island and New Jersey. If Ronkonkoma was in New Jersey, it'd be Metro Park. On Long Island it's like, yeah, okay, we hadda re-up the station there. And sure, the parking lots and all. But don't be talking about "central-izin'" the joint.
Which is a big waste of potential. When they enlarged the station I had visions of new sidewalks, office buildings, residential buildings, more urban style street architecture, some flash, a New Town sort of re-development. Instead, the frontage is a hodge podge of dusty old taxpayers, bumpy, potholed, barely paved streets, gravely/dirt parking, really, no place to wander to, outside of the station. In one sense, the station might as well be Manorville.
Also, the S57 bus that connects to Macarther Airport gets no play at all at the station. Why no signs like "Transit Connection to Airport"? (But the privately run shuttle DOES have a sign. I guess there's my answer.) Ronkonkoma actually is a fairly decent bus connection point, with buses to Sayville, Lakes Ronkonkoma and Grove, Farmingville, the Airport industrial district, Holbrook and Patchogue. None of this is especially noted at the station, unless you actively search out the information. I like to use the station as a base for trips to movies, hiking in one direction and taking the bus back to my car.
Well, the bus information is on MTA maps. Then again, maybe Long Islanders don't like 'centralizin' or have a vocal contingent to the same effect.
Speaking of Ronkonkoma....now, there's a location that's amazingly NOT what you'd expect a major commuting hub to look like. Shows you the difference between Long Island and New Jersey. If Ronkonkoma was in New Jersey, it'd be Metro Park. On Long Island it's like, yeah, okay, we hadda re-up the station there. And sure, the parking lots and all. But don't be talking about "central-izin'" the joint.
Which is a big waste of potential. When they enlarged the station I had visions of new sidewalks, office buildings, residential buildings, more urban style street architecture, some flash, a New Town sort of re-development. Instead, the frontage is a hodge podge of dusty old taxpayers, bumpy, potholed, barely paved streets, gravely/dirt parking, really, no place to wander to, outside of the station. In one sense, the station might as well be Manorville.
One reason that might account for the lack of development in the immediate station area is the fact that much of the parking is located on the south side of the tracks. There's very little land available for development in that area, what with the airport and the Islip recycling facility.
I still think there should be more development on the north side, however.
Well, the airport was supposed to bring the terminals to the north side of the field and create this super transportion center. has it happened?
Nope, they keep expanding the old facility.
So why not use a portion of the airport property for a parking
facility, and demolish that poor excuse of a town, and put something
decent looking there?
It is a disgrace how the strip of stores along Railroad Ave have
declined.
Wasnt that another plan to demolish all the exisiting homes up to the LIE and create an office/business district? What up with that?
Yep, Ronkonkoma, waited for many a ride from there
The old over pass is gone too.
(Yes, another 2004 post, but at least narrowly focued).
I'd like to discuss Manhattan only, not Brooklyn. I definitely don't want to get into the personalities of the different Brooklyn lines.
Lots of people have suggested 4 services all day for Broadway, and I just don't believe it will happen. Broadway will only need at most 32 trains per hour in rush hour*, and EVERY LINE has at most 2/3 of rush hour service midday and evenings (usually 60%). That's only about 20 tph.
Middays, certainly there will be one local all the way from the 60th St tunnel to the Montague, and one express from 57th to the bridge. What about the 3rd service?
I think it should be a SEMI-EXPRESS: bridge to 60th St tunnel (skipping the 4 downtown stations), but stopping at Prince through 28th.
Why this hybrid: the route really needs a 2nd local service, and serving Prince through 28th only adds 2 more minutes to the trip. Serving Whitehall through City Hall, unfortunately, adds 8 minutes. I don't think that's worth it, even though it leaves those stations underserved. The one local service down there would hopefully have 8 tph rather than 6.
* 12 max from Astoria, 10 from Continental, 10 southbound from 57th.
Manhattan is a trunk line. Therefore you really cannot examine it without looking at where the trains are to go.
Further, one must take into consideration the arrangements of the tracks and switches. It seems fairly clear to me that all local service needs to run via the 60th Street and the Montague tunnels; and that all Express Service needs to run via the 63rd Street Tunnel and the Bridge. To do any thing else requires that trains switch to and from local and express tracks, and would slow down the line as trains vie for the crossings.
If you want to look at Broadway as strictly a Maanhattan Service, with a tph to suit that service alone, all you need do is to look at what tph is required, however, it is my experience that those platforms are always crowded, and need as much service as they can get. It is my experience that people will wait on the platform for "their" train rather than taking the first train out, and then switching to the correct train at say DeKalb, which is not an option anyway, since not all Brooklyn trains stop at DeKalb.
But the purpose of the subway system is not to circulate people about Manhattan (busses can do that) but to get them in and out of Manhattan.
Broadway (from Whitehall to 57th St.) *is* the destination for trains from the outlying routes. Those are the routes that must be serviced. Fortunately three outlying routes can feed into one Broadway (Express) line without any strain at all, as long as the Local-X-Express crossovers are eliminated.
57th Street can be a terminal for two express services, but only if no service extends beyond it to 63rd Street. If one service uses 63rd Street, then 57th Street can no longer be a terminal for anything.
And unfortunately, the only place 63rd street goes to is the already over burdened Queensborough Lion.
So for Local Service:
(R) Continential to 95th Street
(T) Astoria to West End Local
Express:
(N) 57th to Sea Beach
(Q) 57th to Brighton
If Second Avenue to 125th is ever built then:
(N) 125th Street to Sea Beach
(Q) 179th Street (Queens) to Brighton (which requires service adjustments on the QB lions.)
Elias
What about the W putins at 42nd St?
Must run deadhead from Astoria, I once saw one come from the layup north of 57th St.
Well, first, I changed the (W) back to a (T) like it belongs! : )
Where did the put-ins come from, where were they stored?
You could store them north of 57th if 63rd is not in service, but I suppose they would have to go bye-bye if there is to be a 63rd Street Service.
It seems likely to me that they would not be needed if and when the Astoria becomes a LOCAL and with the elimination of the Local-to-Exp crossovers, a greater tph can be achieved directly from Astoria.
Elias
If i remember correctly, isn't this the weekend where the L line gets switched over to the new track around Atlantic Avenue? Or is the construction going to take place in stages over a few weekends? The GO for this upcoming Saturday and Sunday would be consistent with this.
Thanks!
D
Final track-panel positioning should happen during the weekend of March 29/30.
Will they need to adjust the R143 announcements because the run will be a bit shorter?
Is this at the north (Bway Jct) end or the south (Sutter) end? And how are they making out with the Flyover? Any closer to reconnecting it?
wayne
This weekend G.O is shuttle train from Rockaway to Broadway from 7am to 7pm each day only. I think they are doing an upgrade to the signal to and from Linden stops. About two weeks ago they put up new signal up in the area.
Robert
One thing I forget to put in, is that the shuttle will run single track.
Robert
Hi guys! I think you're going to love these new tee shirts. We are
celebrating the Subway Centennial with the official new logo. These
are limited edition tees, which will be discontinued after 2004.
We also have a handsome new Grand Central Terminal "Winged Mercury" and clock tee.
Hope you like them. Let me know what you think! Go to
http://nycsubwayline.com
Subway grrl
Well at least someone has some plans for the Centennial! :-)
David, I know you're not a tee shirt kind of guy, but honestly, you
have to make an exception this time!
Must .... order .... shirts ...... cannot..... resist .....
--Mark
What I meant was, that I don't see NYCT starting up any centennial plans yet. It's good that SOMEONE (meaning you) is doing something to honor the centennial....
Dear David,
I took it that way, honest! Thanks! I just remember you saying you don't wear tee shirts. We hope to make some polo shirts sometime soon.
Would that be good?
Subway grrl
Oooh! Now I can start a collection of new work shirts ... bring 'em on :)
--Mark
Cool, Mark! When you get your Centennial Museum tee, let me know if
you'd like to see that logo on a polo shirt. I think it would be great!
Subway grrl
I already received the shirts ... they are very nice! The 4-color logo (or maybe I should call it the logo x 4) - wouldn't that be too small for a polo shirt? Perhaps just have it once in a contrasting color from the shirt ....
Perhaps another suggestion for these polos would be small logos of the trunk lines in Manhattan with the major avenue they ride under .... something like this ...
4 5 6
Lexington Ave
1 2 3
Broadway / 7th Ave
B D F V
6th Avenue
A C E
8th Avenue
J M Z
Nassau St
What do you think?
--Mark
Yah, someone should send the TA a letter or something...
Opps, yah right you did that some time ago..
Subwaygrrl,
Why is there no yellow Q t-shirt? I'd buy one in a second, but there isn't one. Can we please have a yellow Q? Thanks!
A
We will probably be having some kind of vote on the next two trains to
do. The Q would definitely be in the running, as would the J, V and E. I have to make a commitment to about 1,000 shirts - 3 colors and
5 sizes Adult, and 3 colors, 3 sizes youth - every time I do a new one, so I need to make sure we'll get significant sales. Business!!
I would buy a yellow diamond Q t-shirt. Write that down and hold me to it when they become available. Thanks. I would also consider buying a (2) line t-shirt in honor of the redbirds that used to run on it.
---Brian
See, now there's the problem. A diamond Q? Would those who want a
circle Q be satisfied??
Who in their right mind would want a yellow circle Q? I can see maybe an orange circle Q because that was an express, but no one wants a local when they can have the express. I definitely would *not* buy a yellow circle Q t-shirt, but I would buy a yellow diamond Q t-shirt. Sorry. Maybe you could make a shirt with both of them on it and call it "The Brighton Line" or something. That would be cool.
---Brian
Brian, I could go one better, similar to the subway series T-shirts comparing Yankee and Mets brains:
THIS IS YOUR BRAIN (Yellow Q Diamond or Orange D train logos when it comes back to Brooklyn in 2004.)
THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON DRUGS (Yellow N train logo.)
Comments?
Fred's on drugs? :)
No he's in La La land, same difference!
I vote for either an M or J/Z, there is nothing to represent the Jamaica/ Myrtle Lines.
Go Brown!
Hmmm. So what exactly are you saying? That the N is bad?
---Brian
Just like the 2002 Mets, AWFUL TO LOOK AT.
how bout using the diamond q for the normal brain and the circle q for your brain on drugs?
---Brian
Hey, it's a bad habit bashing someone else's favorite subway line.
Why's it got to be just one? Why can't they have all three: (Q), (Q), and ^Q^?
Anyway, you guys are off on a tangent!!
This was supposed to be about the new limited edition Centennial tees, and Grand Central tees on my web site!
Let's start celebrating now!!
subway grrl
The Q would definitely be in the running, as would the J, V and E.
I already have an "E" shirt; do you mean a second run? Or did you forget you had it :)
I'd buy whatever letters or numbers you decide to come out with. But I agree with the other posters, I'd like to see a "Q" shirt, too. Heck, I have all of them already :)
Even better, a nostalgia line shirt for the "NX", the "KK" or the "8" :)
--Mark
How embarrasing! Yes, I forgot about the E. Which other ones should
we consider?
Nostalgia trains will take a while to get to. But I plan to be doing
this for a long time, so you never know!
My votes would go to J, M and Q.
--Mark
My votes go for the diamond Q, the 2, and the H.
I'll be blunt. They suck! :)
Yikes!!
Subway Grrl
Heh, I just wanted to get your attention. They're fine, but more colors would be good.
What colors do you have in mind?
I dunno, rainbow! That could sell! Every color from all of the routes, from the 7's purple to the W's yellow!
I much preferred the 90th Anniversary slogan: "The Subway - New York's Longest Running Performance."
Hey! I like that! But of course it might only apply to the "Broadway
Local."
Actually it would apply to the Broadway Local to just before Times Square, then th 42nd St Shuttle and then the Lexington Av line south of Grand Central.
You know what would make a nice T shirt? A picture of the City Hall station.
One of these pictures would look good:
From Harry's site: http://www.nycrail.com/images/redbird_fantrip_5_26_02/chloop2002_0526AG.jpg
From NYC Subway Resources: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_7580.jpg
What does anyone else think?
I would love a Diamond Q and 6 logo shirt.
We have the #6! Are you talking about the diamond Q and 6 together?
Diamond Q and Diamond 6, not really on the same T Shirt. I already have D and N.
Thank you, Brooklyn!
I suggest Neighborhood t's
For example, Jackson Hts (74thst) E F G R V 7
Jamaica E F J Z
Coney Island
B D F N
Get the drift?
Hi! Actually, we have some of those! Check out my web site at
http://nycsubwayline.com
We have, so far, some "Subway Stops" with the trains that go there,
and our "Subway Swoosh" designs, which incorporate a boro, or area.
Subway grrl
P.S. What do you think of the new Centennial designs?
Not bad, but I was wondering a post I made a long time ago if subway trains on certain routes like the yellow Q will appear on shirts, or picture shots that I took like my Q at West 8th St. that had an R68 consist. Seeing a yellow Q like this one (Q) Manhattan to Brooklyn would be nice as well too.
....for many years I recall a long-closed tower at the southern (Brooklyn-bound) end of the platform of the IRT Wall St station (7th Ave. Line)There is still a crossover at this point, but the abandoned tower has been gone since the late 80s or early 90s, when the station was remodeled. Does anyone know when the Wall St. interlocking was closed down?
I think the tower has been closed down since 1994. In the space of a week or 2 there were 2 derailments at the crossover.
So they just close the crossover instead of fixing the problem? My toe hurts so I'll cut of my foot.
Crossover is functional, controlled from Nevins
...........are any live tracks still in place in the old lower level Culver Shuttle station at 9th Ave.?? I know that back in the early 90s there was a "Farewell To The R-30s" fantrip which operated to the lower level at 9th Ave.Is the "live" track still juiced up, or is it now deactivated?
Work trains regularly relay down there to get to/from 38th St, yard.
I have also seen light revenue trains relay here for 4th Avenue service.
--Mark
the D-type/Loco 6 trip went there last September. Check the loco roster and D-type page for more photos but here's one:
The little girl's back!
(Just kidding.)
LOL! I forgot who started that thread, but I wonder if the "ghost" of that poor little girl is still in his browser.
....what is the oldest class of ex-revenue cars used as work cars? Are there any more R-10/12/14/15s around still used as work cars? Or have they all been scrapped?
what is the oldest class of ex-passenger equipment still in use by the MTA as work cars? Are there still any R-10/12/14/15s still used as work cars? Or have they all been scrapped?
R-14s are the oldest, from 1949.
-Stef
The R10's wouldn't be around because they are BMT/IND sized. They only usually use IRT sized cars for work trains becasause they can ride anywhere in the system.
I think that there is an R10 school car @pitkin
just curious..i know most work cars are trailers and not under their own power anymore..but what about lighting, doors etc..are they still intact?..or is the car completely 'dead'?
R14, R15, R17, R21, R22, and one ML R33 as a Rail Adhession Car are used on Work trains.
I think subway buffs will agree with me that at least one operating set of REDBIRDS should be preserved for fan trips and other special occassions......Like the ancient Lo-Vs they replaced in the 60s, the REDBIRDS have become not only the type of car most associated with the subway, but, also like, the Lo-Vs, they are being scrapped in large numbers, (or dumped into the ocean as artificial reefs.)The Redbirds are also the very last cars in the entire system that still sport the traditional standee straps, which gave birth to the decades-old term "straphanger"....I would love to see a few "Mainline" and "World's Fair" Redbirds preserved as some sort of "Nostalgia Special". San Francisco has a large fleet of vintage restored PCC trolleys that serve both tourists and commuters on Market St.....New York is missing a big bet by ridding itself of one of the most famous classes of subway cars ever to ride the rails beneath the streets of Gotham. Money, of course, is always a big factor, but, if a Triplex can be preserved and operated (as it deservedly should be), so should a train of REDBIRDS.
AMEN, brother!
Don't worry, I think someone's listening.
-Stef
An ideal Redbird fan train would be made of this:
9726-9751-9722-9713-9577-9685-9698-9699-9394-9327
9577 has the original "Bluebird" paint on its window sills.
9394 & 9713 are 2000 Subway Series cars.
It would be great if some of the cars painted in the US Open scheme
could be in the set.
So write to the TA about saving these cars!
The R36 has the most historic value of the subway cars because they are the last non-stainless stell car, served th 1964 fair, 2000 Subway Series, Met games and US Open. They should be saved (at least some).
The Redbirds that had the Tennis Balled 7s for the US Open were removed once it was over with back in Septmeber.
Here's a pic of R36 9442 when it saw its better days with the US Open Tennis Balls on them:
An ideal fan trip would be 6 cars NOT 11.
Here's my ideal cars that should be saved:
9331-9542-9543-9395-9394-9577-9576-9338
9327 should go to Branford.
Other R33 that should be saved as backups for the FanTrip: 9333 and 9336.
I know only 6 cars could be used for a fantrip but I figure 1 car of each class and each fantrip they can swap some cars:
9394-9395 R36 WF WH Cars Subway Series Special-better shape than 9712-9713.
9542-9543: R36 ML WH Cars-in great shape. Not much evidence of body rot.
9576-9577 R36 WF GE Cars-I agree with you and the Original Blue Paint.
9726/7-9751/0-9722/3-9685/4-9698/9: What's so special about these cars?
I know 9750/1 are in bad shape. 9698/9 have a huge hole on the bottom.
I will look at 9684/5 and 9722/3 more closely next time I see them.
I doubt the MTA will do much about saving a lot of cars as the city is not only facing war overseas but also a budget deficit.
#9394 7 Flushing Local
Why are we only saving World's Fair cars?
The Redbirds that had the Tennis Balled 7s for the US Open were removed once it was over with back in Septmeber.
Here's a link to pic of R36 9442 when it saw its better days with the US Open Tennis Balls on them:
R36 9442 at 74 St Broadway
An ideal fan trip would be 6 cars NOT 11.
Here's my ideal cars that should be saved:
9331-9542-9543-9395-9394-9577-9576-9338
9327 should go to Branford.
Other R33 that should be saved as backups for the FanTrip: 9333 and 9336.
I know only 6 cars could be used for a fantrip but I figure 1 car of each class and each fantrip they can swap some cars:
9394-9395 R36 WF WH Cars Subway Series Special-better shape than 9712-9713.
9542-9543: R36 ML WH Cars-in great shape. Not much evidence of body rot.
9576-9577 R36 WF GE Cars-I agree with you and the Original Blue Paint.
9726/7-9751/0-9722/3-9685/4-9698/9: What's so special about these cars?
I know 9750/1 are in bad shape. 9698/9 have a huge hole on the bottom.
I will look at 9684/5 and 9722/3 more closely next time I see them.
I doubt the MTA will do much about saving a lot of cars as the city is not only facing war overseas but also a budget deficit.
#9394 7 Flushing Local
A set is already being saved for future fan trips. I've mentioned this previously here at SubTalk.
Where does heypaul find all that room in his apartment?
LOL! Well, for starters he's learned to sleep in a standing position! :)
1. I saw an R-40M (Q) train this morning.
2. The gate at the exit only stairway at the 22nd Street end of the sb 23rd Street and Broadway platform was wide open at 9:40am this morning. Anyone could have gotten on to the platform for free.
3. I saw an R-68 that was missing its rollsign box in the side window.
---Brian
Brian:
1. I saw that R40M on Sunday, some R40M have been on the Q diamond for awhile
2. Nothing unusal about 23rd st, at Times Square, old passageway from Broadway line towards Flushing ramp there is an exit only stair near the first escalator and ramps leading to the lowest level. It usually has a gate open, stair I think leads to 41st and Broadway.
3. Saw that missing rollsign on the W last night, didn't get the car #. And it was an R68A, not R68. I wasn't paying attention to car #'s
........anyone have an idea as to about when the old interlocking tower on the Astoria line (near Queensboro Plaza)was abandoned? From the looks of it, I know it's a safe bet to say it has obviously been closed down for many years. What switches did it operate when it was in use?
uhm... that tower has been gone now for at least a year. the switches all work though. probably controled by ditmars or QP...
controlled QBP master tower
Are you talking about Bebe Tower that controled into the center track and the different levels at QBP??
It was torn down last year as Queensboro Master Tower took over.
I read awhile back it is possible to see remains of the old underground trolley terminal at Delancey St. from the BMT Essex St station platforms...is it still possible to view the remains from this location?
Yes, but it's just basically a dark empty space just beyond the Queens Bound track. It's a huge area though. If you look closedly, you can see how the tracks curved around in there, and that the far back wall is tiled.
I wonder if they are going to make a tiled track wall and close it in during the renovation at Essex Street that is going on. I'd hate to see it covered, but I do feel it would improve the general look of the Essex Street station.
Here are some photos from this website with the trolley terminal in the backround.
The Transit Museum has done a trip that included it in the past.
There's also a abandoned entrance & active tower back there.
Access is via a locked gate under the active platform.
That abandoned entrance was in use during the 1999 Williamsburg Bridge closure. Access was via bridge over the NB track. (All trains terminated on the middle track.)
It was also in use from 1989 to 1990 when they were renovating the wall platform and it was closed to use due to heavy construction. Broad Street bound trains used the middle track, and Essex was an island-platform station only for about a year.
The view is not as good as it used to be. Construction of temporary (or maybe they're permanent) offices has obstructed a good deal of the area. If you look carefuuly in places, you can still see the trolley tracks on the ground.
--Mark
The best view, as I discovered today, is from the railfan window of a NB train waiting for the lineup.
...I had read years ago that the Court St. Station stubs (Transit Museum)are aligned that they would have connected with the stub-ended terminal tracks at Chambers St./WTC (IND 8Th Ave "E") to provide through service from Court St. to lower Manhattan. Any truth in this?
I dunno if they actually planned to do that, but it sounds like it would have been a good idea...anyway, why do you keep typing titles in caps?
anyway, why do you keep typing titles in caps?
He just wants attention, or maybe he's a troll. :)
That might have been on people's minds when the initial IND lines were laid out. In the early and mid 40s, the Board of Transportation also proposed running the southern extension of the 2nd Avenue line through Court Street as well.
I doubt if it would have been connected to the local tracks at Chambers St/WTC. Ahead of the path beyond the wall is the BMT line curving into Cortlandt St. Maybe the Court St Stub would have connected with the BMT south of Whitehall St. Or maybe with the 2nd Ave Subway that Yorkie described.
It *was* an IND Plan, and would NOT have connected to the BMT no matter what.
A 1939 map shows it connecting to the Second Avenue Subway,
But I do think that I recall an earlier plan that connected it to Chambers Street.
Elias
When the current F line was built to Church Ave, wasn't there a plan to "recapture" the Culver line for the IND? (which they did anyway)
Yes, and that was part of the 1929 plan.
A friend of mine bought a weekly ticket at a TVM. He did not use and tried to get a refund at Penn station but was told he needed a doctor's notes stating that he ws sick the whole week. I think this rather obsured just to get a refund....My friend was sick the whole week, but to make someone go get a note is too much....and there does not even seem to be any assurance that he'll get his money back either...
Aren't LIRR's weekly passes the "flash" type? How else could your friend prove he didn't use it?
NO...the conductors punch the ticket when in use....
the person was being an ass there is no such policy- u didnt use it
>>> A friend of mine bought a weekly ticket at a TVM. He did not use and tried to get a refund at Penn station <<<
I am having trouble understanding this. The ticket was purchased as your friend was exiting the station? Why? Do the tickets have dates on them that they are valid? Was he trying to get a refund before the expiration date? If this is a discount ticket, should there be any expectation of a refund?
Tom
The LIRR's weekly tickets are good for a specific week -- Saturday to Friday ending March 21, for example. The ticket is essentially a "flash pass" -- you show it to the conductor as he walks through the car. Normally, though, the conductor will punch the ticket the first time it is used. (In the few times that I've bought weekly tickets, the conductor will usually inspect the ticket on Saturday - Monday to make sure it has been punched).
I would have assumed, as it seems streetcar_man did, that you could get a refund for an unused weekly ticket if it were unpunched. Of course, I also think that you could probably get through a week without having your weekly punched if you avoided travelling on Monday AM.
This seems to be more of an issue now with the TVM issued tickets. The old tickets issued at the windows had a tear-off section (I think called the "auditors check") that the conductor would tear off in addition to punching the weekly.
CG
Why is a week defined as Saturday-to-Friday rather than the more common Sunday-to-Saturday?
"Why is a week defined as Saturday-to-Friday rather than the more common Sunday-to-Saturday? "
I don't know -- and can't even come up with some good speculation...
All three local commuter railroads use the Saturday to Friday as their weekly ticket.
CG
>>> Why is a week defined as Saturday-to-Friday rather than the more common Sunday-to-Saturday? <<<
Possibly so you can't go to the city Friday night and come back Saturday on the same ticket, (or so you can do so on Saturday night).
Tom
I'm pretty sure that the first few trains after midnight Friday (Saturday early AM) are considered Friday trains for the purposes of weekly tickets -- so you can go out late Friday night.
The best reason I could think of for doing Sat.-->Fri. is that most people work Monday through Friday. If the ticket were a Mon.-->Sun. then I might give or sell the ticket to my kid/neighbor/stranger/Uncle Leo to use over the weekend. The railroad would lose weekend fares (and I might make some cash which would actually lower my net commuting cost).
But with Sat.-->Fri., I'm certainly not going to sell the ticket and I probably wouldn't loan it out either for fear that it might get lost.
So that's the best guess I can come up with -- weekend fare protection. Any better ideas?
CG
i borrow my fathers monthly because i sometimes bring people back and they dont like paying 4.75 each way
The best reason I could think of for doing Sat.-->Fri. is that most people work Monday through Friday. If the ticket were a Mon.-->Sun. then I might give or sell the ticket to my kid/neighbor/stranger/Uncle Leo to use over the weekend. The railroad would lose weekend fares (and I might make some cash which would actually lower my net commuting cost).
But with Sat.-->Fri., I'm certainly not going to sell the ticket and I probably wouldn't loan it out either for fear that it might get lost.
That sounds quite logical.
Where the the tunnel portals located through which Brooklyn trolleys entered and left the underground Delancey St. terminal and swung onto the Williamsburg Bridge? Are any remains of the tunnel portals still visible? Or have they been covered over and/or obliterated?
The trolley tracks were at the location of the southern inner roadway and reached daylight as the exsiting rapid transit tracks do. The recent reconstruction of the roadway pretty much wiped out traces of this. Stan Fischler's book (Confessions of a Brooklyn Trolley Dodger, or some similar title) has a few pretty good pix of the terminal, about the best Ive seen in print at least (or the best my rusty memory will recall). The evolution of the Centre Street subway and Essex Street station/terminal is pretty fascinating, you may want to search through some earlier posts on the topic.
As built, the inner roadways of the Williamsburg bridge were reserved for trolleys. The south inner roadway was for Brooklyn (BMT) trolleys, terminating at the Essex St. underground terminal. The north inner roadway was for Manhattan trolleys (Third Ave. Railway?), which ran conduit operation and terminated at a surface terminal at the Brooklyn end of the bridge.
The Williamsburg bridge was not alone in having separate overhead wire and conduit tracks. The Manhattan and Queensboro bridges did also.
-- Ed Sachs
lower case = indoor voice ...
UPPER CASE = OUTDOOR VOICE !!!
If you really feel you can't contain yourself, use an emoticon. Otherwise, some simple punctuation is always in good taste.
With the fluctuating and volatile economy, and the rise in oil prices, is NJT, Metro-North, AMTRAK, etc. doing well even during this tide of soaring diesel costs? Here in Edison, it is $1.70 or higher for Super Unleaded (93 Octane gas) with the exception of "Petroleum 19" at $1.62. Diesel prices at major gas stations (Exxon, Mobil, etc.) are one notch over this price at well into $1.80 / gal. I know railroading companies are big, but over time, I want to know if these railroad companies will be kinked in the shoulder for the rising oil prices. Any ideas?
Most major users of petroleum, like the airlines, lock in prices through hedging techniques and long-term contracts.
I don't think the cost of diesel oil is a significant percentage of the expenses of the railroads.
The effect of increased oil prices on the cost of electricity is probably more significant, though still pretty small.
Overall, cost of energy is small for the railroads compared to labor, management, and interest expense.
Both CSX and NS have a special fuel surcharge that kicks in to shippers when oil prices rise above $30 a barrel. However, freight railroads use more fuel than commuter/passenger lines (each train has 2-4 locos and encounters lots of grades and starts/stops). The price of fuel is mitigated somewhat by the fact that railroads pay a special lower fuel tax.
Am I correct in assuming that the old Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle used Lo-Vs until about 1964? I can remember two car sets of R-12s/14s bieng used on the shuttle after the Lo-Vs were retired. Anyone know if the old fare control area for the shuttle at South Ferry still exists (used for storage, maintainence, or whatever)? I know it has been closed off since the shuttle was terminated in 77.
The fare control for the Shuttle no longer exists. The platform with its openings for the center door only are still there. They should tear that wall down and reopen that side for the 5 train. I hate walking to the ferry from Bowling Green, but love those Gap Fillers at South ferry on the 1/9 line. I make the Crosstown trek now since 1/9 service had been restored to South Ferry.
Thanks for the info..much appreciated! I used to love the old gap fillers at South Ferry when I was a kid 40 years ago...my mother called them "pneumatic gates" and was terrified of them! (She was also afraid of subways..she only tolerated them because she knew I was hopeless little subway nut! lol) I remember riding the old R12/14s on the shuttle back in the mid 70s when I was in high school. They should restore service to the old loop by ripping out the old wall on the inner platform...it makes sense as empty Lex trains that only go as far as Bowling Green have to use the loop to turn around for the uptown trip anyway. Was a waste of money when they renovated the Bowling Green station in that horrible "bordello red" tile....and wasted more money by renovating the shuttle platform when it was clear the shuttle was on borrowed time!
You say there was a separate fare control for East Side Trains versus West Side Trains. Were there two booths at South Ferry, or has it always been one?
-Stef
South Ferry Station always had one booth. There was something like 4 or 5 turnstiles for the outer platform and 2 turnstiles going to the inner platform. The inner platform is used now for offices and storage area.
That's the confusing part. I'm trying to place Booth R200 in the right location, and I'm not 100% Sure. At BG, a new, N/B side platform was constructed during the renovation in 1977-78. R200A appears sometime after this. Where was Booth R200? The IRT Ghost Booths page will need to be updated again.
Actually I should reverse myself, a TA booth directory mentions R200 Bowling Green. Where was the location of the booth in the complex?
-Stef
The south Ferry Station right below the street, so, you had to have fare control for each platform.
The outer platform is the original station. Th inner was added later
The lower level of the 8th Ave. IND station at 42nd St has been abandoned since the 70s...I recall rush-hour E trains using it last. I know the old escalators have been removed and the openings sealed off. Is the third rail still activated for that track; and if so, is the track still signalled? Or is totally deactivated? I thought maybe work trains might use this track occassionally, but I am only guessing. I recall the old Aqueduct Racetrack specials loading at that platform also.
To my knowledge, or a luck guess here, the tracks are still signaled. As for the 3rd rail being energized, I might be wrong, but I would have to say yes because it connects to the local track at both ends. I'm not sure if the power can be cut on this small isolated stretch of track. I could be wrong. Just making a hypothesis here( an educated guess).
No,the track doesn't connect to both ends anymore.There's only a switch to the lower level track before 42St.The switch back to the current track's in use has been severed a month or so ago when they rebuilt the trackbed around the area.If you ride the C or E you'll be able to see the new track and roadbed.I'm not sure about the A,I've gotten passed there on the express track's too often yet to remember.
The northern end was also used as an underpass for changing from either main level platform. At one time, there were separate paid fare zones for downtown and uptown trains on the mezzanine, and the only way to transfer between the two was via the underpass. In fact, there used to be signs on each platform pointing this out. I vivdly remember seeing a "For Wash. Hts, the Bronx and Queens trains, use underpass" sign at the southern end of the s/b platform. I used that underpass once or twice, and it gave me the creeps both times.
The area has been deactivated, and the switches leading in and out of the area have been blocked and clamped to prevent movement into/out of the lower level.
The Lexington Ave. Line's Wall St. station has a repro of the original wooden booth on the downtown side......do any other stations have classic style repro booths? Or is the the sole example? Anybody know of stations that still have closed classic-style change booths intact? I remember the last of the original booths bieng ripped out in the early 80s.
Unless I'm mistaken, Booth R204 on the downtown plat at Wall St is the one and only booth reproduced in this style. It's quite unique, I've had the opportunity to work in it. It also has an old style service entry, an old slam gate.
-Stef
There is also reminders in that booth not to have the booth door open while a n/b train is moving in the station. The way that the Halon sensors are located, they pick up the sparks from the 3rd rail and activate it.
Ouch! And here comes the G2 for the Field Office!
-Stef
What is the purpose of the stub-ended track at 34th St/Penn Station on the IND 8Th Ave. Line? Was/is it for work trains? Or disabled trains?
Possibly both. It's also used for layup trains. I have seen a train parked there once, more than 30 years ago. It was an R-1/9 consist signed up as a B train.
I saw a set of R30's on it in 10/89 when 34th St. was a terminal during the water main break reroutes.
2 months ago I saw a R68 train signed as a B
From 23 St to 34 St there is a 5th track. One of the things that was built when the original A line was built.
This is not really OT, and not intended to be a war-related post, just a note that a particular propensity of complaint is not just New Yorkers.
We are very fond of saying "If we have money for (war/airports/cars/you-name-it), why don't we have money for the Second Avenue Subway?"
Now, I see in the emergency debate on Iraq in the Commons (that's the guys across "da pond," folks) Tony Banks, "the former sports minister" said "we can find money to send these troops to the Middle East but not fix the Central Line".
So is the Central Line the Second Avenue Subway of London, or is it more like the Manhattan Bridge?
Well isn't the Central Line already kind of built, wouldn't that tend to point to Manny B as opposed to SAS?
Although really is the MannyB's problem money? I thought it was fully funded and stuff, just that the work was time consuming, thus the delay.
-OT- How many trillions of dollars of debt? How many hundreths of that could pay for an SAS with the 125th St crosstown, 3rd ave Bronx line AND a Bronx Coop City crosstown line? -OT-
Thank you for mentioning a Bronx Crosstown subway line. With the delays on the Cross Bronx Express(?)way, it is impossible to get crosstown in a reasonable amount of time.
Delays on the Cross Bronx Expressway?
Wow, with traffic like that, it should snow everyday (please, I'm done with this winter). A rare sight indeed though. That would be a great photo for nycroads.com
Believe it or not, I gave up a Redbird to get that shot:
Geesh, it was worth *getting off* the redbird just for THAT shot!
To get back on thread - we *don't* do that in London, too - at least, very very rarely!
It was my impression that they were working 'round the clock to repair the trains of the Central line with some service already restarted. If that guy is advocating putting trains back in service with known bad motor mountings he's an idiot. Guess there's no shortage of them in world politics!
But what is the issue with the Central Line in particular, that it should actually be mentioned in Parliament? Just bad motors? In new stock?
Lets rephrase the question a little;
But what is the issue with the Central Line in particular? Just bad motors? In new stock?
10 year old trains; manufactured by Adtranz, not the Underground's usual supplier up to that time, Metro-Cammell. So you had a new manufacturer and a totally new design of car. It's the bolts that mount the motors to the trucks that are faulty. (Wasn't one of Acela's problems bad bolts?) I'm pretty sure that the Central line was London's busiest; its total closure affects a lot of people but it's probably better and safer to leave it totally closed until they have enough trains to provide the proper level of service. Otherwise it would be dangerously overcrowded, not something you want in the deep tube stations or trains.
that it should actually be mentioned in Parliament?
Politics of course. I don't know for sure but I'm sure Parliament takes special interest in the functioning of the capital city, as Congress with Washington D.C.
that it should actually be mentioned in Parliament?
Politics of course. I don't know for sure but I'm sure Parliament takes special interest in the functioning of the capital city, as Congress with Washington D.C
Parliament is full of all sorts of weirdos who will debate anything (The Times once ran a leader titled "Why Silly Drunken Speeches are Good for Democracy"). Here is one of the silliest:
Earl of Kimberly, former Liberal Party spokesman on aerospace, and member of the House of Lords:
"UFOs defy worldly logic... The human mind cannot begin to comprehend UFO characteristics: their propulsion, their sudden appearance, their disappearance, their great speeds, their silence, their manoeuvre, their apparent anti-gravity, their changing shapes." (House of Lords, Debate on Unidentified Flying Objects, HANSARD (Lords), vol. 397, no. 23, January 18, 1979.)
Pardon my Yankee ignorance, but how does one become a member of the House of Lords? Mainly I'm asking if there's any electoral component.
U.S. lawmakers say some silly things in Congress, but they can be assured those will show up in sound bite ads at election time. This is a real fear when they say something stupid unless, of course, their particular constituency agress with the supidity.
"that it should actually be mentioned in Parliament?
Politics of course. I don't know for sure but I'm sure Parliament takes special interest in the functioning of the capital city, as Congress with Washington D.C."
To be fair, Tony Banks *is* an MP representing a constituency (= congressional district) in east London, the area worst affected by the Central Line closure, so he wasn't just grumbling on his own account but on behalf of his constituents too. If the Queens Blvd line was out of action for three months, I imagine Queens' congresspersons in the US House of Representatives would be making noises about it....
The Central Line isn't either the SAS (the Central Line opened in 1900, not 2050!) or the Manhattan Bridge (there isn't anything wrong with the tracks - it's the trains). Tony Banks was just making a cheap political point in Parliament - the problem with getting the Central Line trains running again isn't lack on money, it is simply the time needed to fix 700 cars with the maintenance facilities and staff that they have.
Now, London's *real* SAS is CrossRail!
Hey Im doing the R44 Sounds for the NYC Subway in BVE Simulator, Does anyone have the braking sounds, air release, and take off R44 sounds? So I can use them for BVE? Or if someone can get them for me? I don't have a portable sound recorder, so I can't do the job, Good Looking out!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Last November I scanned a few photos from a shoebox of photos my father bought at a yard sale in the 70's. I needed help to identify some of the unlabeled ones. Well, I scanned a new round of them. Some I have an idea of where they are, some I have no idea. This is different than the other mystery photo threads we have been having here because in many of these cases, I don't have the answer - that is what I am relying on you guys for. I was born in the early 70's, and many of these photos were taken in the 60's or earlier. None are newer than 1965. So over the next few days (or whenever I have time) I will slowly post some of them - Thanks in advance for any information!
SO here's the first one - a trolley under an el. No date listed on this one. Where is it?
Could be McDonald Ave, Kings Highway or 18th Avenue. It can't be under Broadway or Myrtle Av or Jamaica Av, those els take up the whole width of the street, and here the trolley track is on the street outside of the el. I can't speak for Fulton Street, though, 'cause I've never seen it in my lifetime...I believe many of the line's stations were island platforms. Maybe that's it. I don't think there were ever trolleys in the Bronx.
I don't think there were ever trolleys in the Bronx!!!
What planet were you born on?
It is probably not in the Bronx because all the TARS lines on streets with elevated structures had tracks directly below the structure.
If you can identify what company the trolley belongs to, you can probably narrow the search.
My first guess was Fordham Road and 3rd Ave in the Bronx.
However, there was never a trolley track configuration such as that in the image and because the previous reason.
The structure appears to be a heavier Dual Contracts express (2)island platform structure or later.
I was just looking at the orignal photo which is a bit clearer, and can't see any kind of name on it as to a trolley company. ALl it says on both the front and the side is "797" and "Front Entrance" (it looks to be a double sided trolley).
I'll second Stillwell as the location.
As for the car itself, consulting the roster in Fischler's Confessions of a Trolley Dodger from Brooklyn, the only 797 was built as Brooklyn City RR parlor car Amphion by Barney & Smith in 1894, converted to a half mail/half passenger car and renumbered 797 in 1929, and was scrapped in 1947.
I dunno. Unfortunately this particular photo doesn't even have a date on it. Maybe someone here will have the answer. The el doesn't seem to be over a street.
Stillwell Avenue looking north beside Coney Island terminal.
Seriously? Is that you "final answer".
I didn't even think about Stillwell.
Yes, final answer.
I agree with Paul. I've seen similar pictures that were taken at Stillwell.
I'll add my weight to the "Coney Island" answer. I have a photo of the same area, an it's definatley the trolley from CI (Norton's Point?).
^^^"an it's definatley the trolley from CI (Norton's Point?)."^^^NOT,
Eighty Sixth Street Line, now the B-64. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Looks like Stillwell Ave. I notice the brick headhouse under the structure.
If this photo is in New York, I agree. The el is over a private r.o.w., not a street, very unusual in NY. It can't be Manhattan (conduit trolleys) or the Bronx (els all run atop public streets). If Brooklyn or Queens it's either Coney Island or in Ridgewood where the Myrtle el runs along r.o.w. north of Wyckoff Ave.
However, the trolley looks almost like a Chicago Surface Lines car, and in Chicago many of the els run along alley rights of way parallel to the street grid. Who knows? Could it be 63d and Halsted on what is today the CTA Green Line?
See that's the problem, I don;t even know if this is New York. Most of the photos in the box are NY. This photo has no markings on the back. I agree with Paul, after he mentioned it it does look like Stillwell.
The trolley could be the answer if it is New York or not. Unfortunately there are no cars in the photo. If you look closely under the el, there are a few cars parked that could be from the 30's or early 40's.
The el is over a private r.o.w., not a street, very unusual in NY. It can't be Manhattan (conduit trolleys) or the Bronx (els all run atop public streets). If Brooklyn or Queens it's either Coney Island or in Ridgewood where the Myrtle el runs along r.o.w. north of Wyckoff Ave.
You are right about the ROW. I can vouch that it is NOT in Ridgewood. I used to live there, and there is nothing on the M that looks like this scene, and most of the buildings around the M el predate the el, so the scene hasn't changed much. If it is indeed NY, it can only be Coney Island.
If it does look like Chicago, I haven't a clue, maye some of our Chicago Trolley experts can help if a #797 existed there.
Chicago did have a 797, but it looked like this (eleven side windows instead of ten, more rounded front).
>>> eleven side windows instead of ten, more rounded front <<<
And a whole lot smaller too. :-)
Tom
Actually, the photo you posted is of a model of a CSL "Old Pullman" and those cars were numbered 101-700. CSL #797 would have been one of the "Pressed Steels" that looked like this (note steel construction and painted panel next to egress door). The "Pressed Steels" were numbered 701-950. Hope this works!
Frank Hicks
Speaking of Old Pullmans, how's 460 doing at IRM? Are there any plans to get it running? Since they already have 144, perhaps not.
"Speaking of Old Pullmans, how's 460 doing at IRM? Are there any plans to get it running? Since they already have 144, perhaps not."
That's a good question. Over the past three years 460 has been receiving a cosmetic restoration, and by now pretty much the entire car has been repainted except for the letterboard. It really looks sharp. The controllers have also been overhauled, and there are a few people picking away at other parts of the 460 as the opportunity arises.
While the 144 runs, it runs very rarely and is pretty tired. Getting the 460 running to replace it wouldn't be as easy as it sounds, since the 460 would have to be re-wheeled with AAR wheels, but one idea is to restore the 460 and simply swap trucks with the 144. One way or another, I wouldn't be surprised if 460 is traversing our streetcar loop one of these years.
Frank Hicks
When I saw 460 in 1996, it looked tired from the outside. I guess CTA didn't paint it while they had it in their collection.
My goal is to be there someday when the Green Hornet is running on the loop and/or the 4000s are out on the mainline.
"My goal is to be there someday when the Green Hornet is running on the loop and/or the 4000s are out on the mainline."
That wouldn't be too hard. The Hornet is running on most special event days (everything from Memorial Day to Independence Day to Members Day), and the 4000's are out practically every Saturday and Sunday we operate (unless it's raining).
Now what you REALLY want is to be there when the CA&E wood interurban cars are on the mainline. :-)
Frank Hicks
That should have been a New Pullman, 751-1100. The roster I have shows the Pressed Steels as 701-750.
Instead of a model, here's a real one.
If this photo is in New York, I agree. The el is over a private r.o.w., not a street, very unusual in NY. It can't be Manhattan (conduit trolleys) or the Bronx (els all run atop public streets). If Brooklyn or Queens it's either Coney Island or in Ridgewood where the Myrtle el runs along r.o.w. north of Wyckoff Ave.
However, the trolley looks almost like a Chicago Surface Lines car, and in Chicago many of the els run along alley rights of way parallel to the street grid. Who knows? Could it be 63d and Halsted on what is today the CTA Green Line?
The definately looks like either a Laclede Car Co. or John Stephenson Co. trolley.
The only record of a car #797 I've run across is a two car order, numbers 796 and 797, from Barney & Smith, built in 1894 and owned by the Brooklyn City RR.
see Post 461854, as to the builder of BCRR #797.
8-) ~ Sparky
Could it be Astoria Blvd, under waht is now the N train?
This is no doubt the Stillwell Ave terminal under the West End platforms. This trolley is the Mermaid Ave a.k.a. Norton's Point Trolley. I don't recall Chicago els painting cany stripes on the el supports at street level. Also, Chicago els don't have wooden walkways on the els, similar to the Atlantic Ave viaduct on the LIRR.
^^^"This trolley is the Mermaid Ave a.k.a. Norton's Point Trolley."^^^
The Norton's Point Line did not operate on Mermaid Avenue. When
rubberized, the buses used Mermaid, the Trolleys were on a Private
ROW North of Mermaid. Also the car IS NOT on the Norton's Point
Line, which terminated under the EL Structure. Car 797 is on the
Eighty Sixth Street Line. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The structure looks a little heavy for Chicago.
Compare to this:
Nice pic. Where is it?
That must be Coney Island Stillwell. We may have solved the puzzle for sure, and someone else mentioned that Chicago's 797 looked different. I was 95% sure when Paul mentioned Stillwell, but the Chicago possibility was the only thing that had me wondering.
Yessiree. Good ol Stillwell and the Norton Point trolley. How can anyone miss?
^^^"Good ol Stillwell and the Norton Point trolley. How can anyone miss?"^^^
You missed half of the correct answer, the Norton Point Trolley terminated
under the El Structure at Stillwell, not parallel to it.
B&QT (exBCRR) #797 is on the Eighty Sixth Street Line. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The BMT standards in the picture are another clue.
Interesting the way pictures can deceive ... this scene looks at first as if it's from the 1930's or even earlier, but it can't be any earlier than late 1957 (a 1958-model Chevrolet is visible on the left).
That entire end was rebuilt sometime later....those stairs to the street aren't there anymore.
It is Stilwell, agreed with everyone else, note the el is sticking out and the brick wal.
after getting off at marcy ave,i saw that both rollsigns on the j train i was on were both signed for jamica center,car # 4608,4609
4948,4949,and 4942,4943 all had the rollsign like that,only the c/r,s
cars had the normal rollsigns(j jamica center/broad st).i guess the
t/o like to fool around with the rollsigns.LOL
til next time
It is possible for a J train to operate between Jamaica Center and Jamaica Center. Leaving the lower level at Jamaica Center, the train would proceed on the normal J route to Essex Street, then switch via the Chrystie St. connector to the F train route, and continue to Jamaica Center upper level via either the 53rd or 63rd St. tunnels and the Queens Blvd. subway. Only problem - at which point does the train officially switch from being SB to NB, and vice versa.
Yes
Train becomes northbound after Essex Street. When connecting to the F at Bdwy-Lafayette, you are going northbound.
"Train becomes northbound after Essex Street"
Whoops, made a boo boo. Forgot the old BMT/BRT designations. All designations change at Chambers St in either direction. From Jamaica Center towards Chambers, you are going Northbound. Passing Chambers towards Broad Street and the Montague Tunnel, it is Southbound. It works in reverse for Queens bound trains from Broad Street and the Montague Tunnel. North towards Chambers, then Southbound from Chambers to Queens.
As for the designation change, From Jamaica Center lower to upper, it's a continuing North Bound run. From upper to lower, Southbound from Jamaica Center to Broadway-Lafayette, then changes to Northbound at Essex Street until Jamaica Center lower.
Due to the old BMT designations you wouldn't have a changeover anywhere.
Start Jamaica Ctenter Lower - J train is going Northbound (BMT calls Manhattan Northbound regardless of geography), then it goes through the Chrystie Street cut where you continue Northbound (IND designation) to Queens.
Start Jamaica Center Upper - J train is sounthbound (IND designation), then at the Chrystie street continues SOUTH (BMT designation) to Jamaica Center Lower.
Yo Joe when you writing, start the subject with a capital in the Subject line, instead of everything all lower case.
Well using a term used in "Boston" at Park Street to designate
the difference between RT & Trolley Lines insert the terminology
"under" for when it arrives at Jamaica Center "Lower". It would
go from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center "Under" or visa verse. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
This message especially goes out to those people who lives in the Bay Ridge/BensonHurst area in Brooklyn. I think that the MTA should have the M Train between Metropolitan Avenue and 95 Street, on weekdays and on weekends, the M Trains should run Metropolitan Avenue and Chambers Street. The J Train should run between Jamaica Center- Parsons/Archer and Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, and on weekends, J Trains run between Jamaica Center and Broad Street, Manhattan. The reason that I believe that the MTA should have serious consideration for this idea is that congestion on the R Train is horrible during Weekday Rush Hours, passengers end up waiting for a train for about 15-20 minutes. While, J and M Trains, in which, I believe has the least percentage of rideship. No one even takes either of these trains, unless when the M Train gets to DeKalb Avenue, when the Q always connects with the M Trains, then some passengers would cross over and take it to where ever. Please give me back some feedback on this idea.
I dont' know if two Nassau services through the Montague tunnel are really necesary. However, leaving the J alone, when the Manhattan Bridge reopens, and the B likely reclaims the West End from 6th ave. They should send the M to 95th Street, and keep the W on the West end taking over the M's job, running from Astoria to Bay Parkway rush hours, and to 9th Ave during the day. The M would run from Metro to 95th Street all day weekdays, from rush hour to rush hour.
Three things. First:
What is up with that lonely, two-car set that is always sitting there on the sixth track on the upper yard, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth? Are they testing the train, testing the track, training a motorman, or are they playing with it? And speaking of playing with it, why are they always leaving the signs on (Q) when changing from (J) to (Z) and back? How lazy can you possibly be that you don't feel like changing the sign from J to Z and just leave it on (Q)? Or are they playing with the sign.
Second:
Why is it necessary for them to lay up trains at Chauncey Street? Not that I'm knocking it, 'cause it's fun watching the trains go back and forth by my house, but why do they need to do this when switching trains from the upper yard to the lower yard/vice versa? Can't they just use the siding that connects to both levels?
Third:
Does anyone know what the new configuration at Atlantic Avenue will look like? The construction over there just never seems to end.
Well, I can answer your second question. Trains don't lay up at Chauncey. Those trains are making a yard move. They use the middle track as a spur to turn trains and bring them from the upper deck to the main trackage in East New York Yard and vice versa.
Does anyone know how much the fare would be from Penn station to Hamiliton NJ? I plan to go videotaping the 135MPH acelas there soon,also what is the earliest train that leaves penn station?Thanks
Earliest trains leave Penn on weekdays at 0447 and 0552 HRS. Fare is $10.05 one way and $15.25 off peak round trip. BTW this info is instantly obtainable on the NJ Transit web site. That's how I obtained it. Have a nice trip!
All you want to know is at Njtransit.com
Be sure to watch the catenary bounce and arc as the trains come through, pretty much all of them do it with the Variable Tension Catenary we have, and it can be pretty impressive.
No, not now, but it was closed in both directions from about 2:00 to about 2:30 this afternoon.
I overheard this from the radio in the T/O's cab on a NB M at Essex at about 2 while we were waiting for a SB train to get off the bridge (single-tracking on the NB track). I couldn't make out the reason, but diamond-Q service was suspended, circle-Q and W trains were running through the tunnel, and M trains were cut to Broad. I don't know how much of this was actually implemented; a change to the M would have really messed up the GO, and 2.5 tph doesn't eat up much of the tunnel's capacity anyway.
At 2:30 I was on a SB M at Broad, and it did go through to Brooklyn, but it had to wait for a W to cross in front. At DeKalb we were met by a circle-Q across the platform. I crossed over to see if NB bridge service was running, and I left when a train went through the bypass. Back on the SB platform, I was greeted by a circle-Q on the tunnel track and a diamond-Q on the bridge track arriving together, along with a lot of confused faces. Eventually the holding lights for the tunnel track went on and a parade marched across the platform.
Anybody know what happened on the bridge?
Incidentally, it might be a good idea for someone to post signs at J/M/Z stations about the GO. Lots of people didn't get on the M, preferring to wait for the J. At 24-minute headways, that's cruel and unusual punishment, especially given the condition of some of those stations.
Sounds like a terror threat. There are truck restrictions on the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. What do those two bridges have in common?
To clarify -- the NB track on the Williamsburg Bridge was open at the time of this incident; we were just waiting for a SB train to get off. The SB track is closed weekday middays for a GO, from yesterday through April 4. The M runs at 24-minute headways and the J is cut back to Myrtle.
Too bad I didn't know they were doing that! I was on the Lexington Line yesterday and could have swung over to Canal to ride that GO. The M and J switch roles as the M takes over part of the Broadway El again. I assume the J terminates on the middle track Myrtle like the M usually does?
Well, they don't really switch roles, since at that time of day they both normally run through.
Before 7/22/01, the J was usually the one to run through during single-tracking, but since the M now runs past Broad, it gets to run instead.
Yes, the J terminates at Myrtle.
BTW -- there was a work train parked on the NB "express" track just north of Canal, and there were even workers on the NB platform at the Bowery. Essex was a zoo, with SB trains using the middle track and service at 24-minute headways each way.
I guess they do have to start working on Bowery. I assume they are going to block off the little pass-throughs in the curtain wall like they did at Canal.
I can imagine the confusion at Myrtle with the M running through rather than the J. What I meant by "switching roles" is that most people are used to seeing the M end there (even though it does go through weekdays). Rarely does the M take control over the J by going to Manhattan, and it's the J passengers that have to get off and switch trains instead. M riders are used to that while J riders aren't.
If the GO runs long enough, people get used to it eventually. It was only the second day of the GO, though, and J passengers didn't know to get on the M. The C/R made announcements at most stations, but not everyone heard them. There were no signs and, except at Essex, no platform announcements.
There were platform annoucements at Canal.
Da Beastmaster
Not during the five minutes or so I was waiting there, at least not on the NB platform.
Exucse me, there were station PA annoucements. No platform conductors.
Da Beastmaster
The same GO was in force weekday middays when I was last in NYC in November 2002. I travelled outbound from Essex St to Brooklyn on a J while it was still a.m. rush hour, and then back to Manhattan later on an M during the GO - which ran wrong-line and so made me (from England) feel at home, running on the lefthand track! Are they now doing to the south side of the bridge whatever they were doing to the north side last fall? As I remember it was NYCDOT road repairs, not subway repairs, but the adjacent rail track had to be closed while they did it.
Whatever the reason, 24 minutes is a grossly inadequate midday headway.
The same GO was in force weekday middays when I was last in NYC in November 2002. I travelled outbound from Essex St to Brooklyn on a J while it was still a.m. rush hour, and then back to Manhattan later on an M during the GO - which ran wrong-line and so made me (from England) feel at home, running on the lefthand track! Are they now doing to the south side of the bridge whatever they were doing to the north side last fall? As I remember it was NYCDOT road repairs, not subway repairs, but the adjacent rail track had to be closed while they did it.
No, the same track is closed as when you were here. (The south track is the northbound track.) It seemed to be for road work, since the adjacent roadway was closed, but I didn't see any actual work taking place.
Whatever the reason, 24 minutes is a grossly inadequate midday headway.
It sure is. Even late nights, 20 minutes is the standard. At the very least the schedule should be posted on the platforms at affected stations. (It's available online but that doesn't help anyone who doesn't know to check online.)
Sounds like a terror threat.
Only a really stupid towel head would put a bomb on the Manhattan Bridge. Why bother? It's likely to fall down soon enough on its own accord.
After all the money that's been sunk into it, it would be even sadder if the bridge were to collapse. I honestly hope that never happens.
It was a report of a suspicious package. I don't know where the package was supposed to be or what, if anything, was found.
David
I was at the pedestrian/bicycle passageway, and one of the bicycle riders tell me get off the bridge and offer me a ride. On Canal Street, traffic were back up very badly and serval police cruisers fire trucks were on the scence
I've been through that GO a couple of times and both times I had to shout out from the train I was on to get on the M and go to Myrtle to get the J.It's amazing how so many people don't know what's going on.
It's obvious those people if they have a comp don't ever bother to go to the MTA website to see if there's anything happening or they don't have a comp at all which for the most part I think it unlikly.
I've been through that GO a couple of times and both times I had to shout out from the train I was on to get on the M and go to Myrtle to get the J.It's amazing how so many people don't know what's going on.
It's obvious those people if they have a comp don't ever bother to go to the MTA website to see if there's anything happening or they don't have a comp at all which for the most part I think is unlikly.
I was on the 1 yesterday. While entering 215St, there were six R42s cars and a two car R42 set on the adjacent track where the Deadbirds are stored. On the six car set there was a white sheets running through the set and red tape sepearting the cars. Anyone know whats the deal with these cars???
Da Beastmaster
Beastmaster, I suspect it has something to do with asbestos abatement...but I could be wrong.
EMD was about to layoff 850 employees from their assembly plant in London, Ontario, but CSX came to the rescue with a clutch order of 75 SD-70MAC locomotives. The locomotives will have to meet Tier II emmissions requirements and the new designed EMD cab.
Looking for the NY Transit connection.........
General railroad information is par for the course.
Wait, didn't EMD have that massive UP SD70M order to fufill? Are they already done with that? I thought people were saying that would take 3 or 4 years to complete.
Any idea why CSX went with MACs? I thought UP's purchase of DC locos was a slight sign that the railroads were realizing that American high horsepower AC locomotives weren't quite what the manufacturers made them out to be. I fear I may sound like BusFan, but do you know if they'll have the flared radiators like UP's '70Ms? I'm assuming that Tier II EPA compliant would entail the flaring, unless UP just did that to go along with the Winged emblem and chalked it up to EPA rquirements.
Finally, does anyone know why suddenly EMD two-strokes are okay again? I had thought just a year ago that they were on their way out, EMD's four cycle H engines, with the SD90 and SD89 would drive the two stroke 16-710G3B'd SD70s out of business. What happened, I know there were problems with the H engines, but why is it that railroads suddenly don't seem to care about EPA regs and are buying GM two strokes? Did the EPA change in our last Regime change? Did GM make a noticeable improvement in their two-strokes to make them more environmentally friendly? By all rights the railroads should (heaven forbid) be buying GE four-strokes, but they haven't seemed to get any big orders (especially compared to the UP and now the CSX orders). Can anyone help me sort out what just happened with locomotive engines?
Either way, thats great news, it's good to see EMD hanging on, now maybe it's about time that NS or BNSF went to EMD for some engines, anyone know how NS liked their ex-Conrail SD80MACs? Maybe they might like some big 710s to go with their little ones?
Thanks JM for posting that, and thanks to anyone who can help me sort this out.
I posted an extract of this item on railroad.net from a Canadaian newspaper. I've been trying to find the source of this news item on both EMD and CSX web site to get more information, both technical and financing. Both sites have not posted a press release (is this news "offical" or an insider info).
I was on the 1 yesterday. While entering 215St, there were six R42s cars and a two car R42 set on the adjacent track where the Deadbirds are stored. On the six car set there was a white sheets running through the set and red tape sepearting the cars. Anyone know whats the deal with these cars???
Da Beastmaster
Most likey they are getting they new floors.
Robert
You sir are correct.
Thank you for the responses.........
Da Beastmaster
I was riding up the NEC today and I noticed that the MIDWAY substation had been been completely demolished except for the old high tension towers, lattice framework and two large, black, primary transformers. Here is a photo of the Substation while active:
Now I might have been seeing things, but I was damn sure that the substation had been removed from service and its feeders cut. Can anyone confirm this? Can anyone provide an explanation why?
Can I please get some more facts about Hamilton station,what kind of a station is it,how many acelas a day,how fast,how close to the action am I,do I have to worry about any undesireable characters bothering me,will the police object to my videotaping there.I cant wait to see the catenarys arcing there.
Under code Orange? You may just wait until the threat level goes back down a notch.
I was just out there today taking pictures. I can't say that the catenary does much arcing, but it does move a whole lot. Especially after an ACELA speeds by.
Note that Princeton Jct. provides faster trains with a more photogenic location, however Clockers and Keystones make station stops.
For the number of Amtrak trains that pass any station on the NEC, go to Amtrak's Timetable page, they're in .pdf format, and don't show Hamilton, you'll have to look for Trenton, Philly, Newark or New York and then roughtly estimate the time when the train will pass.
For information on Hamilton Station itself, go to the Hamilton NJT NEC station page on this very site. You shouldn't have any problem with 'undesirables' there, it's a brand new station. If you do feel funny about the place you can always just catch the next train north to Princeton Junction., I've spent a few hours there and never felt threatened, but that isn't as good for picture taking since it doesn't have a pedestrian bridge.
Course Hamilton Post Office is just across the parking lot, so if you feel an itch or something, you probably should go to the hospital, might be Anthrax! >g<
You'll have to ask another person about police objecting to your video taping. I'd say just keep it low key, you may want to forgoe the tripod. Make sure you are as up front as possible with any cops. You are just a railfan and have nothing to hide (I am hoping this is the case), if you are at least respectible then theoretically the worst they can do is tell you to get out, and make sure you get on that next train out of there.
for a speed freak like myself,which station has the fastest trains between Ny penn Station and Philly?
Trenton and FAIR interlocking is a choke point. Most trains stop there and those that don't have to slow down. There is greater room for acceleration between FAIR and NASSAU (Princeton Jct) than FAIR and Hamelton. Hamelton station is only about 3 or so miles from FAIR.
Anyway, based on my observations, trains at NASSAU are faster on a more consistant basis than at Hamelton. However, as I said, Clockers and Keystone trains stop at Princeton. Clockers are a sight at speed due to their length and Keystone trains w/ 3 cars are little speed deamons.
i would go with Hamilton
The tie breaker is that PJ has a signal bridge (407) at the END of the platform and the signal on track 1 displays a RESTRICTING aspect when the train leaves the old NASSAU interlocking limits. The signal bridge gives you good warning of what is comming, especially during rush hours when the center toggle between directions.
3 car keystone trains? AEM-7 haulled? That must be a fun trip if the engineer likes to accelerate. At New Haven, two car movements with them in the yard were always PUNCHY...
I was on a 4 car keystone once. Boy that ride juiced. Got to ride in the back vestabule as well. One of my best NEC rides ever.
I've ridden a keystone once. 3 Cars Phi-NY. We actually made better time than the Metroliner. However, we were kept in NWK/Penn for #19 and a Metroliner. I believe we hit 125 for a stretch (No PJ or MPK). Man, the toaster was dancin out the front window. What fun!!!!!
Rahway looks like a good spot for speeding AMTRAK trains going west. It's not Metuchen for sure; there is a restriction around the curves (but not sharp), and I haven't seen one go 100+ past Metuchen in either direction. I caught an Acela Express at 100mph westbound though.
What is the restricted speed in the Rahway area for the express tracks? (If there is any restriction)
#9287 South motor on the 4 today. There are still a few out there. They're not ALL sea birds YET...
Did you see any on the 5?
I was hanging out at Atlantic for almost two hours (just after 3 to just before 5 this afternoon), watching the parade. I saw four Redbird trains on the 4 (and there are only 42 R-33's assigned to the line at last check, so I doubt there were any more), but I didn't see even one on the 5. Now, granted, not all 5 trains run to Brooklyn, even at that time, but I'm still a wee bit worried.
The Redbirds on the #5 Line is down to 20 cars meaning 2 sets remaining and will be retired very soon. Sorry 1 month from now the #5 will be 100% R142.
I know -- that's why I let at least six Redbird 4 trains go -- I wanted to ride the 5! Eventually I gave in and rode a 4 to 149-GC.
Next time I'll wait at Bowling Green, where I can also catch the 5's that don't go to Brooklyn. The downside is that I have to make a mad dash to catch any NB train.
Hard to believe. It doesn't seem that long ago that the opposite was true - the 5 being 100% red.
I remember when it first hit me that the R-142's were taking over on the 5. It was August 18, 2002, and I was railfanning. I had taken a bus to Pelham Parkway on the 5 and was looking forward to a nice ride on a Redbird -- and only when the train pulled in did I realize that there was a good chance I wouldn't get a Redbird.
A few weeks back, I caught a quick glimpse of a train of MAINLINE Redbirds awaiting departure from Times Square on the #7...I had no time to jot down thier numbers.....about a month ago I was lucky enough to hop aboard a downtown Redbird on the #2.....and it had been quite awhile since I last rode one........sadly, the once vast fleet of these classic subway cars is no pratically extinct. May they Rust In Piece.....
A few weeks back, I caught a quick glimpse of a train of MAINLINE Redbirds awaiting departure from Times Square on the #7...
There are six mainline R-36's assigned to the 7.
about a month ago I was lucky enough to hop aboard a downtown Redbird on the #2.....
Lucky you! Are you sure it wasn't a rerouted 5? The last Redbird was officially removed from 2 service in August 2002, though there were two reported sightings here in October. I thought the only hope now was a rerouted 5 -- and with only two Redbird trains on the 5, good luck finding one of those two rerouted!
Well, the second photo (cool photo actually) looks like the view people have seen for Purim, St. Patrick's Day, or whatever people were doing the beginning of this week.
There was another 1 with the north motor of 9260 and the south motor of 9255. Rode 9255 from GCT-59 St. There was another in the opposite direction on the #4 and the south motor was 9295. IDK if 9287 was on that consist. Didn't see the rest of the consist after 9294 as I was on 9255. BTW 9254/5 and 9090/1 look pretty bad.
Here's the consist:
9255-9254-9090-9091-9301-9300-9279-9278-9261-9260
9090 had its marker lights on-lol.
Glad to see Redbirds still out there-especially on the #4.
#9255 4 Lexington Ave Express
....are there any remains of the lower level 3rd Ave El platform at the Gun Hill Rd IRT station?
There are traces. This will soon be obliterated as the station starts to undergo renovation.
-Stef
This will soon be obliterated as the station starts to undergo renovation.
Gee, I worked on that project in the Spring of 2001 and they haven't started construction yet? What's the holdup?
---Brian
This must have been a real swinging place back in the day....
No mystery in this photo I know just where it is.
Cool. Is that yours or this website's?
It's one of mine photos. I didn't take it, but it's in my collection (from the box of photos mentioned in the other threads).
Also thanks to CC8THAVELOCAL who emailed me to describe the trains as Lo-Vs and WF Stienways one atop the other, in case anyone here was wondering what the car types are (I'm not that good with identifying some of the older train types).
It's one of mine photos
"Mine", stupid typo, "my" of course.
What is wrong with "mine photos"? Too Jewish?
Sound German to me.
>>> What is wrong with "mine photos"? <<<
Bad spelling. Should be "mein Photos." :-)
Tom
Photos doesn't begin with a vowel...
This is another view that I have at the Gun Hill Road Station, upper level (Easy to identify when there is a sign...). Anyone know what kind of trains these are? This Photo is March 1963. More wooden Platforms, just like the redbird photo at East 180th Street.
1963, have to be LowVs.
8-)~ Sparky
Of all the els demolished in the period from 1969-1977, this was the most foolish one (3rd Ave).
The Bx 55 bus is probably the most heavily used of all the "replacement" busses and is one long, slow b!tch of a ride. Imagine how nice that el line would look today, spruced up and running modern rolling stock (5-car R142's).
I hate the 1970's, and not just for disco and Jimmy Carter.
I agree completely. Actually, I truely believe that is the Myrtle El and the 3rd Ave el would have survived just a few more years, they would have survived to this day. Of course they would have to have been rebuilt, but a Franklin Shuttle like outcry may have been sparked, it it would have survived even an extra decade.
Think of what the Myrtle El would have looked like by now. It would have lost it's charm that it seems to have had from the old photo's I've seen, but I'm sure the stations would look like the stations on the J do between Alabama and Crescent, which were originally built similarily to the Myrtle's.
Both 3 Ave and the Myrtle would be quite modern looking, with new concrete platforms, etc.
I think the Myrtle Ave. el was useful, but not nearly as much as the 3rd Ave. shuttle. I'm sure it's ridership was high to the bitter end (it was slated to be replaced by a subway....LOL).
The remnants include blocked off staircases; there are also light fixtures hanging from what used to be the "ceiling" above the platforms. These can be seen from the street.
Of course the double-deck steel structure will always be there.
Maybe, for a few feet, at the south end. If you get off and look up, though, you can see just the remains of the cross-bars that supported the platform. The platform itself is mostly gone.
...has the demolition started yet on the remains of the old Fulton El at Broadway Jct? What will be left after demolition? Are there any other remains of the Fulton El still surviving?
The Eastern end that carries the A train from the portal at Grant Ave to Lefferts Blvd.
Once the demolition of the Snediker Avenue structure is complete, nothing will remain of the original Kings County structure, save possibly for some footings in the street.
Remaining pieces near Broadway Junction and over Liberty Avenue are of Dual Contracts vintage.
FWIW, even the TA is not supposed to be sure how much, if any, of the original wrought iron remains in the Snediker structure.
The big loss was really when the remaining piece of structure at Franklin & Fulton was knocked down as part of the shuttle renovation. This was original KC structure, and illustrated the characteristic "spider" configuration.
If I am not mistaken, I can remember riding on Lo-V "Flivvers" back in the early 60s. Am I correct that some were still in use, awaiting replacement by the new R cars?
The IRT Lo-V cars stopped running in revenue service in April 1964.
Thanks..I knew I remembered right!
>>> I can remember riding on Lo-V "Flivvers" back in the early 60s. <<<
According to Ed Davis in his book They Moved the Millions, the last Flivvers left revenue service in 1960, last used on the Lexington Ave. express and 7th Avenue - Bronx Park express. The were used as work motors after that.
Perhaps you are confusng them with later model Lo-Vs which remained in service until 1964, or some trailers which were in service on the 3rd Avenue El until 1970.
Tom
Thank you for finally releasing the CAPS LOCK.
There were Lo-Vs, and there were Flivvers. The Flivvers were a
very small order of cars that were the transition between standard
Hi-V and Lo-V orders. They were gone by the early 1960s.
According to Big Ed, those Flivvers could really hustle.
I don't know if they were "Flivers" or LowVs, but the Lexington~Jerome Expresses
hustled between Grand Central & 86th Street, when I was Bronx Bound in the late fifties. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Back in the early 80s, I recall riding on an R-10 on the "CC" that had louvre-type metal vents in the door windows along the sides....was this some sort of an experiment with ventilation? The last I saw this car was maybe twenty years ago.
I remember riding that car.
That was 3138 hopefully pictured below. It ran out of Jamaica Yard in the early 80s with those door panels too in Crosstown service. When they green-machined it, those doors were replaced so stock glass could be utilized.
Funny, the HTML did not allow for the picture already in the R10s links to show. Cut and paste
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_12227.jpg
Yeah, I had the same problem yesterday in a post relating to Hamilton Station. It turns out that the URL that appears in your browser window is the webpage that the photo is located at. This used to be no problem when the photo WAS the page, but since Dave recently made all his photos look all spiffy, complete with hit counters, and placed them all as items on a page, with a different web address, you cannot link to that photo and expect it to pop up. Just right click on the photo and go to properties to get the proper web address and this:
R10 3138 at Aqueduct
I've seen pictures of it, but never rode on it. OTOH I do remember seeing an entire train of R-10s once with twin circular windows on each side door leaf. Nobody can substantiate this, and unfortunately I never noted any car numbers. It was an A train at 14th St. over 30 years ago. The cars were still wearing the half-and-half paint scheme.
Does anyone know what (if any) historical artifacts were removed from the old Stillwell Ave terminal before is unfortunate demise? I recall a very old sign that had the old BMT designations listed, vintage light fixtures, as well as a large, multi window old-style token booth.
Not to mention the old semaphore signals at the bumper blocks of the West End platform in front of the tower.
Semaphore signals like the circle discs the LIRR uses now? Wow!
If I'm wrong, please forgive me. I still have yet to learn about signals and their aspects. In fact, if anyone knows of any online sites as to explaining LIRR signals, I'd be greatful.
I hope this is not a relic, but I would wish that as part of the Stillwell Avenue overhaul they do something to refurbish the BMT Lines sign outside the station. I always loved looking at that green and red ensemble. It has become worn over the years and hopefully the TA will do something about it, but since this request is coming from me it is probably dead on arrival. But if you guys helped out and chimed in, who knows?
Those signs are being restored and will be part of the new station facade.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, the wooden sign above the fare control area that boasted Sea Beach, Brighton. West End and IND Culver Line was removed and should be restored to hang inside the new Stillwell Terminal. I heard that the sign was damaged in the process of being removed. But hey.....it's wood so any damage can be repaired and you wouldn't notice.
Bill "Newkirk"
The facade along with the BMT LINES and BMT round logo were preserved and will face the new terminal.
Well my trip got off to a flying thud. I was 7 minutes late getting out of the house and I arrived at Hamelton just as the train was sitting on the platform. A nice ALP-46 hauled trainset of Comet IV's. Anywho I had to watch it pull away as I bought my ticket. I knew my luck would change though because I found a penny on the platform and when I winged it into the RoW it hit a catenary wire (I'm 2 for 2 w/ pennies now at Hamelton). \
40 min later at 8:21 a short trainset of Arrow III cars shows up and I get on that for the 80-90mph ride to NYC. Anyway, I had to be in Flushing at 10:10 so once our train pulled into Penn I bolted out and ran to Harold Square and used the mall entrance to get into the QW station. I found a W train sitting on the platform and I get in. I got a wonderful view of the south side of the Manny B and then an express ride to Pacific St. I get off and after wandering around the Panama Canal for a bit find my way to Flatbush terminal. Now here is where I was supposted to meet Pigs, but he wasn't there and our train was leaving at 10:15. I finally managed to find a working cell phone and I called him only to find him on a bus w/ an ETA of 20 minutes. This meant that we would have to miss the 11:48 train to OB, but so be it.
Anyway, I was at the end of the platform and someone from the C&S department had put an amusing cartoon on the C&S depot door, so I took a picture of it and BROOK tower. I went back to the end of the platform and proceeded to read my newspaper and when I got to the bussiness section a swarm of police confronted me about taking pictures. I was totally not surprised and I didn't really care as I was killing time anyway and I showed them ID and the cartoon I took a pic of and they were satisfied so that was that. I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed with the responce time, in 10-15 minutes I could have been halfway to Jamaciam but that's that.
Pigs finally showed up and we got on a Helpstead train and rode in the last car due to a jerk engineer taking up the Railfan spot in the first car. I got a lot of good shots of DUNTON tower and the diesel facility. We laid over for about 30 minutes at Jamacia where I got some pics of an M7 and a DM-30 that pulled in at various times. Finally, at 11:53 our train for OB arrived. I had to admit that I was a bit disappointed with the C-3 cars. The 2-2 seating was a waste of space, there was a limited railfan view and the doors were ungainly, however the vantage the second level gave was nice and they were clean, bright with well formed seats. On the trip out to OB wI got some pics of QUEENS and NASSSAU tower.
We made it to OB and discovered that we were faced w/ a 1 hour layover so we went and found a Deli for some sanwitches and then ate them in a park accross from the station. One interesting piece of news, the OB line is still Rule 251 signaled WITHOUT any form of cab signals so its a wonderful outpost of PRR PL automatic signals.
We caught the 1:46 train out of OB and took it to Roslyn where we endured a wait for the N23 bus that took us to the Port Wash terminal. However, once again we missed a train by meer seconds and were left w/ a 30 min wait in which I took more pictures. We headed out on the 3:40 train and rode it all the way to Woodside. Some interesting sights were that long single track tressle, a new tubular steel signal gantry with PRR PL signals and a complete double track crossover w/ hi-speed turnouts w/ MPF's powered by US&S M-3 switches.
Anyway we got to Woodside and transfered to the 7 train. We were lucky and caught a 7 REDBIRD express INBOUND to NYC at 4:00PM. We made the transfer to the G at 45 road and took it to Clinton Washington where I would meet my friend at Pratt. However he had a class at 5 and although I had him on Pig's cell phone as we walked accross campus he had to go and when we got to his building he was no longer there. Pigs and I went back to the G where pigs then got off after one stop to catch a bus home. I was trying to get to Penn to catch the 5:42 super express train to Hamelton.
I transfered to an A at Hoyt and took that to Penn where I found that I had missed by train by 2 minutes. However this was a good thing was the 6:11 express had a Comet IV cab car in the read with a RAILFAN VIEW. That's right, an NJT cab car that did NOT have a blacked out interrior window. So I got to watch the signals behind us all the way home. EVEN BETTER, we passed the 6:02 HHP-8 clocker at UNION interlocking (we were on the local track, it on the express track). Anyway, something looked wrong and it was going about 60, however, by the time we got near MetroPark its headlights were gaining on us. Just past MetroPark it had moved its cab door even w/ the window in the control cab, but then we put on a burst of speed and began to pull ahead. We were neck and neck through Metutchen, but by Edison the writing was on the wall for our little NJT train and the Clocker and its like 18 cars pulled passed us. Out stop at New Brunswick put the nail in the coffin. Still, talk about exciting seeing that streamlined HHP-8 nose hovering just feet behind the back of our train for several minutes. It reminded me of the old PRR/Reading races down in South Jersey.
Well I hope you enjoyed the report, I hope to post some pics soon.
Yeah, OB is all waysides. The ones at Glen Head, or at least the westbound (well, southbound) are approach lit, but Glen Street's aren't.
Hey, next time you're on LI, get the Far Rock train that arrives at Lawrence at noonish, and we can have lunch (email me first :) It's an M-7 still, and has been for a few months, though I think they rotate trains in/out, maybe it's the 'test' slot that they shuffle M-7s through. It's only 6 cars, and man, with 6, they can get rolling quite quickly, even the other guy at work who watched it the other day was surprised...
Phil, being that you know about the Oyster Bay signals I have a question. Our dentist is located at the Glen Head Station. Being a rail afficionado whenever I take my wife to the dentist me and my son go down to the station platform. I noticed something about the signal on the WB track at the end of the platform. It's only lit up within a few minutes before and after a train is coming. When no train is due the signal is dark. Is there a reason for that? I doubt it's to save on the LIPA bill!!
By the way, do any bike riding the past few days? Weather's been great!!!
It is called approach lighting and railroads use it to save power and bulb life. The signal only lights when a train is in advance or both in advance and in rear of the signal.
The MBTA uses it on many of their commuter rail lines. It has a side benefit: At my "home" station (Anderson/Woburn on the Lowell branch), the signals will light about 90 seconds before the train is in the station. That's just enough time to leave the climate-controlled confines of the station building and walk up/over/down to the island platform.
Is it activated the same way as crossing gates are, by the train closing a circuit between the two running rails?
Yes, if the block in front of a signal becomes de-energized the signals will illuminate. On some bi-directional lines if the block on either side of the signal is de-energized both sides light up.
Well, yeah. Saturday I popped the belt chasing a guy on a Sportster out of Glen Cove, and got it back Monday (Bob at RTC was enthused to see the belt snapped in two :) Ended up putting 50 miles on monday night. Hopefully the belt won't pop again for another 40,000 miles. Ok, so I ride it a bit hard (heh, it's 'only' turning about 2x the stock HP...), but really, I think it just picked a rock and that was that (you could see evidence of a rock-through on it...)
Did you say that there was a Manhattan bound 7 express at 4pm? Usually they are Flushing bound at that time. Mustve been a problem, Queens bound trains mustve been a mess (happens whenever peak direction exp is disrupted).
Yes I was there around 345 on the Flushing Bound Platform at 61 St.
A few minutes later, I saw a number of Times Square bound 7's running Express. Sick or unruly passenger at 52 46 40 or 33 St is my assumption?
#1695 7 Flushing Local
I saw what looked like a stuck local train at the station right after Woodhaven. Either that or it was platforming, but it wasn't moving for an awfully long time.
We have to get used to the heavy police presence on the rails and on the subways as the terror alert is on high especially now since we are at war. This will be a very frequent occurrance folks for quite some time to come. Best bet-limit pic taking as much as possible. Take it ONLY if it is ABSOLUTELY necessary aka M-7 burn in tests on LIRR or Fantrips.
#4468 N Sea Beach Local
I doubt you'll get stopped taking pictures of trains in very public places. If you venture out by yourself to the end of the platform and seem to snap unmotovated shots or take video or pics from an RFW you're likley to get swarmed.
When I took a pic of BROOK there was a guy checking phone circuts around and some other guy as well. The other guy asked what I was doing and I showed him the funny cartoon on the door so I didn't think it'd be a problem.
over monday and tuesday i have heard many explosions and fireworks in brooklyn as i was going through....i thought i was in baghdad, what was all these explosions and why werent there any police there if we are on heightened alert???
That would be the celebration of Purim.
Firecrackers all going off here (Midwood) the last couple of days.
Yes, that was because of Purim. I was in Brooklyn last night drinking myself silly and having a great Purim. I heard the fireworks.
---Brian
i know, i know i was just asking if u ppl heard my fireworks
i got arrested monday night for shooting artillery fireworks on purim
im from midwoodtoo , so if you heard any fireworks it was me, and of course drinking myself silly as everyone else does
>>> i got arrested monday night for shooting artillery fireworks on purim <<<
So your first post was just a troll then? Asking "Where were the police?" when you got arrested. Considering the transit content, YOU ARE WASTING OUR TIME!
Tom
I thought fireworks were illegal in NYC....hmmm?
they are i got arrested monday night for shooting artillery fireworks
How much was bail? :)
they let me out they had no warrant or probable cause
So now you can count yourself lucky, and make sure not shoot off any fireworks, right?
Probbably manholes poping. Welcome to NYC :)
It's even funnier when the national news reports it...
If one thinks about it, the historic REDBIRDS are rail-riding patriots in thier own right. Why? The World's Fair cars were blue when new; the IRT fleet was painted white for a time to deter graffitti (what a boondoggle that was!); and now the remaining cars are in red.....REDBIRDS...WHITEBIRDS...BLUEBIRDS! God Bless America!! These cars have worn the colors of our proud flag at one time or another.....true patriots!Patriots Of Steel!!
Cool fact, but if you want American-Flag Blue, the front of R36 #9713 takes the cake.
Here's the pic.
W3C
This too is patriotic, has all three colors on one piece.
And what's more patriotic than the word "Yankees" anyway?
Ok what gives? I put the link in there... anyway...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3439.jpg
Ok what gives? I put the link in there... anyway...
Due to the new format of the photo pages, you can no longer just post a photo directly from a photo page here.
You have to click "view source" and add the link given there to:
http://www.nycsubway.org/whatever the view source link is, which in this case is "/img/i3000/img_3439.jpg"
It's easy, just an extra step, so your code for this photo would be:
(img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3439.jpg")
of course changing ( ) to < >
Actually, they were 'Patriots of Carbon Steel.'!! :P
"PATRIOTS OF CARBON STEEL"...I LOVE IT!!
There were two images posted in this thread but I can't access them. The first one by "TCrail586" says that the page on nycsubway.org doesn't exist. For "Goumba Tony", is your first picture the same as the second one?
Here's the link for that pic.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i8000/img_8244.jpg
I don't know why the link doesn't work, sorry.
Here's the link for that pic.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i8000/img_8244.jpg
I don't know why the link doesn't work, sorry.
When I go to Hamilton station,or Princeton Junction for that matter,I will be reading the Book "The Savage Nation" while enjoying the ride on an Arrow.At noon-3 I will listening to the "Rush Limbaugh Show"while videotaping Acelas.From 3-6 I will be listening to the "Sean Hannity Show"while enjoying the rush hour.All the while I will be holding the American flag as the trains go by(perhaps they will toot the horn)as I continue to say God Bless America!!
Let me first (and most importantly) say that I support President Bush in his Iraq policy and I support the troops and pray for their quick victory and speedy/safe return home.
Now, I'm waiting to see, in the interest of fairness and in a non-partisan spirit; at least some posts here complaining that the first post in this thread is off topic and the poster should not be bringing politics to the board. When ever Selkirt attemps to add (very much on topic) insight about the inner workings of the world of funding for the transit system, he gets a handfull complaints.
And I also feel support of (or opposition to) the President's policy is not contingent on your political leanings or affiliations, Mike Savage and the other commentators mentioned would like you to believe they have the market cornered on patriotism and those who disagree with them (on just about any issue) are subject to vitrolic personal attacks (or is being called a "Red Diaper Doper Baby" just because you are liberal or take a liberal stand on an issue, not an attack?). Being a patriot does not mean blindly supporting every action a govenrment takes.
Piggo12, I could not have put it better, that third paragraph was my sentiments exactly.
I find it amazingly ironic that those 'Patriots' seek to divide the country so harshly, war is not something that you can be completely for or against. Even the most liberal dove must at some level see the reasons for war, and an equally dogmatic hawk must see the darker side of the war. Some people see recognize that it is the very duty of citizens in a democratic country to question the decisions of the government, and that support for the troops and president cannot mean everyone lean right. Thats happened before, in 1930's Germany. Support from the homeland for those troops must come as a politcally neutral issue, not dirtied by party lines, that will just confuse the issue. If those talking heads really wished to buttress the president and the army's efforts in Iraq, they'd shut up with the party dribble and just for a little while merely report on the war, without the political overtones.
This is a time to overlook such trivial differences as party affiliations and ideologies and just focus on supporting the troops, may their return be swift, complete, and not fraught with the difficulties we encountered after the last war. Lets hope this is the last time we have to visit Iraq for the century.
Once again I'm going to plead that we all knock off the partisan garbage, on both sides, for just as long as this war lasts.
Do we care what you do? No, as long as it isnt something extremely stupid.
Good news for straphangers
>>> Good news for straphangers <<<
A rather cryptic thread. :-)
Tom
Yeah, but aren't you proud of me? Subfans have been hassling me about being lazy and not "linking" to stories and now I'm linking consistently - and nobody notices :-(
There was a link? Did you specify white text on white background or am I just missing it?
The link appeared on my Preview screen, and triggered correctly when I clicked on it. I did not realize it did not appear at all when posted.
My apologies.
Ron, If you wuld like, I will e-mail you a very good HTML editor.
Either post a reply, or e-mail it to you.
The link appears on my screen, and works correctly. There is no typographical error in the source code, as far as I can tell.
However, in future I will post both a link and the URL.
Yes there is.
This is what you typed (substituting parentheses for angle brackets):
(a/href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/68305p-63560c.html")Good news for straphangers (a/)
This is what you meant to type:
(a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/68305p-63560c.html")Good news for straphangers(/a)
What you typed was gibberish. Some browsers guessed what you meant correctly; others guessed incorrectly. Use the proper syntax and no browser will have to guess.
Here's the link:
Good news for straphangers
Story here
Thanks.
Story where?
Try again. It worked for me.
Try what? There's no link there at all.
Oh, I see. Ron made a typo in his HTML and different browsers try to recover differently.
Oh I see, I just cliked "view source" and there is a typo in his link, he added a / between a and href, and reversed < /a > Strange, my browser read the link and it was clickable. Strange. Well for those of you that that didn't see Ron's link:
Story here
Thanks for the assist. I'll make a note of it.
If you don't link successfully, copy this URL:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-port0318,0,7935931.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dtrans
I remember reading here awhile ago about a very loud switch at the end of one of the stations on the NEC was it Princeton Junction?
the only turnout in what used to be NASSAU interlocking is the trailing point connection on #4 track to the Dinky track. It is abot a mile from the station platform.
just how much of the old NYW&B station is intact at 180th these days? I have seen old pictures of it showing various platforms and passageways to the street. I recall one picture taken in the late 60s or early 70s in a book by Rodger Arcara, and it showed a closed-off pedestrian ramp leading from the street to the platform area. Was this for access to the 3rd Ave. L? Is is still intact or has it been torn out? And what about the interior of the old NYW&B headhouse? Is all modernized, or are some of the original fixtures still there?
It is virtually intact. The old NYW&B station building *is* the E180th subway station - you come in from the street through its front door and walk past the closed-off accesses to the NYW&B platforms en route to the extant subway platforms at the far side. The tracks at the old NYW&B platforms are used for lay-ups of subway trains.
For my money E180th is one of the most attractive of all stations on the subway.
I remember back in the early 80s very old original illuminated station platform signs on the IRT 7th Ave line. They were very heavy, and were suspended from the ceiling. They had overhanging hoods on either side of the sign, under which were light bulbs to illuminate the sign itself.I remember most were long disused, with either empty sockets or dead bulbs, but I distinctly remember the ones at 34thSt./Penn Station still being lit around 1980/81. It is a shame these historic signs were not restored and re-lit. Does anyone know if any of these historic illuminated signs were preserved by the Transit Museum?
They also had them at Grand Central. All of the ones from Grand Central are part of the Transit Museums collection. Don't know what secame of the 7th Ave. ones.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't remember these signs. Anyone know of a photo with one of these signs? What were they used for?
on the far end of the n/b platform I can remember seeing what I believed was a long-abandoned interlocking tower. But I can remember that the doors seemed too wide for an interlocker (if I recall correctly) I spoke briefly with an older fellow whose mother rode the BMT to work in the 20s and 30s....He said she told him that before the completion of the Nassau St Loop, that Chambers St. was a terminal point and had a waiting room of sorts (this what I was a told)and had many stairways and ramps. There are tracks (non-revenue) that descend beneath the revenue tracks. Are they for train storage? Work equipment? I always thought the BMT Chambers St station was the subway's version of King Tut's tomb......
R3-4 run from the middle @ Chambers to a single tail used for relaying trains, beneath R1 & R2.
Just (compass) north of the station to the right of J1, there is a wide flare in the wall were some other tracks once were intended to head twoards the Brooklyn Bridge. [I think - either that, or R3-4 were supposed to duck under and to to the BkB.]
IIRC there was a provision for 2 more tracks to be built at Chambers St. That would have been east of the current station.
The 2 current express tracks combine and form a single tail track south of the station.
And at the south end of the station on both local tracks there is a provision for what would have been a ramp to the Brooklyn Bridge and connection to the Els coming out of Sands Street.
.....though it had long since been closed, the last intact vintage change booth I can recall seeing was in the IND 181st Station...the windows were covered over, and the change trough had been removed...and yet its exterior light fixtures were still lit! Is the booth still intact, or has it finally been removed?
It would be interesting to see if the old change booth at the 181 St. station of the IND is still there. Maybe one of us in the group of Sub Talkers will found out very soon.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't think that booth is still open. In a lot of stations the old booths are still visable. But they're used as storage rooms and the fronts of those booths were never removed.
Even though these booths are no longer used as change booths, they're put to another use thankfully.
#3 West End Jeff
Neither end of the 181st St station have old change booths. Both ends have the new glass box booths, and have had them for some time, as far as I can tell.
When did the KK begin running to and from Canal St.? Did it use the old Bridge Line station? When was it discontinued?
Are you new here? You seem to be just full of a million questions :)
I was just about to say the same thing.
CC Local - welcome to the board.
Before you go further how about introducing yourself to the rest of us.
or try reading the rest of what is a very nice website.
The same questions I flooded this board with when I discovered in in 1998 :)
The KK never ran to Canal Street. It went over the Willimasburg Bridge, not the Manhattan.
I think he's thinking of the 14, (Atlantic) Canarsie Line to Canal, terminating on the "express"track before the KK that used the Chrystie connection.
The KK ran from 168th Street to 57th St/6 Ave. The only Nassau line station used on the KK was Essex St. The next stop after Essex was Broadway-Lafayette.
Let's not forget that the KK designation prior to 1968 WAS to be assigned to the old #14 route. Many cars had "KK via Nassau St." signs installed.
I don't know if they were ever used in actual service. The cars which carried them didn't run on the Eastern Division prior to Chrystie. St. opening.
The R-32s had KK signs on their original curtains, but they never ran there.
BTW, that's a 1967 photo. That's how I remember the R-16s.
Oh, how about that. One more piece of subway history I learned by coming here. Thanks.
KK-57th St/6th Ave to either Atlantic Ave (on the Canarsie line) or Broadway/Eastern Pkwy, via 6th Ave, Houston St, a now-unused connection to the Williamsburg Bridge, and the Broadway El. It never ran to Canal St on the Nassau St. line because that was south of its connection. I don't know the exact dates, but it ran from about 1967 up through the mid 1970's.
:-) Andrew
Oops! That's the K. The KK went all the way to 168th St/Jamaica Ave. And neither started until at least 1968, when the 57th St/6th Ave station openned.
:-) Andrew
Thanks for the info! CC
Thanks for the info!! CC
Andrew,
You are mistaken. Prior to the merger of the BMT and IND lines in November of 1967 their was a service that operated on Broadway Brooklyn which was known as the Broadway Short Line which operated rush hours between Atlatntic Ave or Eastern Parkway and Canal Street in Manhattan.
Since the eastern division at that time used only BMT standards or R-16's which used the old BMT numbers ( i do not recall what they were for this service i think it was 14 or 15 but i am not sure). Since they had used R-27's/30's on the Southern Division it had the KK designation via Nassau Street.
After the consolidation in November 1967 this service was designated the "JJ" but it was replaced in July 0f 1968 when the 57th Street/6th Avenue Station and the connection from Essex Street to Broadway-Lafaytte was opened. Then the "KK" which you are thinking about was started.
For additional information check the Links page on the subway history and see Joe Breenan's interesting page
Thank You
The KK debuted on July 1, 1968. It became the K in 1973, terminating at Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction and was dropped on August 27, 1976.
The "Nassau St. KK" route has a confusing history, as it was also known as the "JJ" until discontinued in June 1968. From what I've been told, the KK designation was reserved for the old #14 route in 1960 to differentiate from the JJ designation, also used for Broadway Bklyn locals which went to/from Atlantic Ave or Canarsie, as opposed to 168th St in Jamaica. It was never used like this in practice. Prior to 1967 there was a #14/#15 "skip-stop" service which ran in the PM rush to Jamaica. This service never used cars equipped with KK Nassau St. rollsigns (only R16's and BMT standards were used). After 1968 the QJ/KK also ran in this manner, but the KK ran to 57th/6th.
Which cars had "KK Nassau Street" signs? I'd assume the R32's and R30's did. Any others (R38)?
The R-32s did. Not sure about the R-38s.
.......is the abandoned upper level segment from the old Myrtle Ave. L still intact here?
Well the structure is, but the station was destroyed sometime around 1990-1992. They encolosed it for storage or signal rooms. It was intact before that (right down to the station signs), I remember it from when I was a teenager in the 80's.
Here it is as today (well recently):
Well here's a tributeto the el from www.nycrail.com
Thanks for the pictures, Chris.
I thought that the structure was still there, but was unaware that they had enclosed it for storage area. That must be one long storage room. Do you have any idea how long it is?
The room (whatever it's for) is the entire length of the old Broadway platform. It starts right by the tower, and goes all the way south to almost where the old platform ends.
It's been a lot of years since I was there, but I think that platform was about 300 foot long.
That must be one long outdoor building.
but I think that platform was about 300 foot long.
Does that mean that the old Myrtle and Lexington Avenue Lines only had 5 car trains?
Myrtle had six cars max in peak service.
Lexington had only five in peak, according to Karl B on previuos posts. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
How long were old wooden el cars?
Just under 50 feet!
"Just under 50 feet!"
Weren't the Manhattan elevated cars a foot or two shorter in lenght than the BRT counterparts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Manhattan el gate cars varied from 41' up to 47' 6"!
Most BRT gate cars were in the 47' to 48' range.
Lexington Ave & Fulton Lexington Ave trains did not get to Myrtle Ave station! They both turned off of Myrtle at Grand Ave. They joined the Broadway line from Lexington Ave, just west of Gates Ave station, and ran east.
In the 1940's, rush hour Myrtle Ave Line trains were six cars.
Fulton-Lexington Ave Line trains were six cars.
Lexington Ave Line trains were five cars.
Passengers were not permitted to exit or board trains from the front platform of the first car or the rear platform of the last car. As a result, six car trains could probably platform at a station that was just over 200 foot long.
Remember the old signs visable from the lower Queensbound platform marking "trains to Bridge Street" and "trains to Metropolitan Ave"?
Yep, I remember them also.
When I was a teenager in the mid to late 80's, I would also usually walk up that crossover at Myrtle that used to be just west of the old Broadway Station. It had wooden floors, and a closed off entrance to the Broadway station at the south end. I used to walk up there to look to see if the train was coming, or to get a real good view of the old platform. I would always use that to switch between platforms at the lower level station, as opposed to the crossunder that still exists. I forgot when they took that old wooden stairway/crossover away, but that also survived into the early 1990's.
That crossover lasted until recent times, though I'm not sure what year.
Story and video about veteran token booth clerk
Peace,
ANDEE
It is nice to see Bobby Cuza finally get away from the nutty news at Newsday. He used to email me whenever I posted something of interest (like whne the #1 train was going to start running again) on the Strappies Board wanting to know where I got my "advance" information.
I usually told him to come here.
I think he is much better than Arthur Chien was.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't get the link. 8-(
Don't know why.
It's there, try cut and paste.
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NewsBeats/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=2&subtopicintid=5&contentintid=28716
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe someone there doesn't like me.
But I still couldn't get the link. Even after C&Ping it.
I'm just wondering who was the clerk they spoke to.
>>>I'm just wondering who was the clerk they spoke to.
"For eight hours a day, Marty Goodman's home is Booth R-126 at the Christopher Street station on the downtown 1 and 9 in Manhattan. "
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought it might have been someone I knew.
In September, the bus and rail operators work list at Midvale Depot will be combined into one bus work list. This will be effective with the Fall 2003 picking. As a result, the 11-year "temporary bus conversions" of Route 23 & 56 will come to a close.
The Route 56 can be expected to be dismantled, as there has been strong civic concern about the condition of Torresdale Ave. Also, any return of rail operation has been strongly opposed by local civic groups.
The Route 23 is still in question as far as being dismantled. Plans are still going forward to reopen the Route 15 in 2004, which would leave one all-surface route operating in the streets of Philadelphia.
Noooooooooooooooooooo! I never had a chance to ride those lines!
---Brian
Me neither, and I went to Drexel University in 1996 and 1997, just four and five years after trolley service on 15, 23 and 56 were suspended. Right place, wrong time. I do hope to ride the "new" Girard Avenue line. Looks like Philly will have six trolley lines, six more than we have here in NY.
Well that's a step backwards. Sad.
Yes, it is. In Philly, they have the infrastructure to build a great light rail system and they're throwing it all away. Why? Buses may cheaper to run per vehicle, but you have to have more of them because they are smaller and can't be coupled. Plus, you have to buy them more frequently because they don't last as long as LRVs. This is terrible and typical SEPTIC.
I knew that was going to happen. It was just a question of when. SEPTIC kept saying it didn't have immediate plans for 23 and 56. I guess the writing was on the wall.
I'm surprised they're still going ahead with bringing back 15. I guess bringing back 15 can be seen as a partial win, but the permanent loss of 23 and 56 as trolley routes is terrible. I hope Gov. Rendell finds out what SEPTIC is doing to 23 and 56. I know as Philly's mayor he threatened to pull city funding from SEPTA if the made 15, 23 and 56 into permanent bus routes. Maybe he can make a similar threat now that SEPTIC is up to its old tricks again.
It's ironic, because Line 56 (Erie Av) occupies a wide street built to better handle LRV's. Germantown Av (Line 23) is too narrow to do that, except as a historical curiosity.
If it were up to me, Erie's LRV would run in a shallow trench, with stops every three blocks, designed to maximize available roadway for cars, rising only to pass through intersections.
But, if SEPTA is definitely not going to run LRV anymore, then I agree the existing track and stations should be removed and the street repaved and repainted to improve bus and car traffic flow.
SEPTA has been on record as opposing surface streetcar operation, except as part of the Subway-Surface lines.
Their program, since taking over from PTC on 1969, has been to convert surface lines to bus. 6, 47, 23, 50, 53, 56, 60. They completed what PTC started in 1954, when NCL came to town.
As to Girard Avenue, the the only reason the 15 will be coming back is that the City, which has always been opposed to SEPTA removing surface streetcar operation, has been pushing the return.
When the cars return, they will look like PCC's on the outside, but will be LRV's on the inside. No trace of PCC technology will exist.
SEPTA is doing this to basicly shut the City up once and for all. They are hoping the project will basicly fail. SEPTA is afraid that if Girard is successful, the City will push to return 56 to rail, and 23 from Chestnut Hill to Erie Avenue. This they do not want at all. It will not surprise me if, after the 15 comes back, the remaining unrebuilt PCC's sill in storage will quickly be scrapped.
"It will not surprise me if, after the 15 comes back, the remaining unrebuilt PCC's sill in storage will quickly be scrapped."
SEPTA has already announced that the remaining PCC's that aren't going to Brookville are for sale, and that if they cannot be sold (or perhaps given away - SEPTA claims to be interested in having someone preserve them if possible) they will be scrapped. This is from a press release from, I think, three or four weeks ago.
Frank Hicks
Unless the kooks in Pennsylvania and Ohio who collect PCC's to let them rot into the ground take a few, nobody will want them. These are GOH2 rebuilds, with mis-matched motors, no field shunting, and are pretty well shot.
The groups that have a new life (although the Brookville rebuilt cars have only the shell of a PCC, making them a little like Dr. Frankenstien's creation on rails) got a 100% rebuild. MUNI put around 600K per car into their cars and got a new 1947/8 PCC fleet for their investment. New Orleans used the guts of one in 457, then discovered that the car took twice the maintenance that the Perley Thomas fleet did, and opted for Tatra for trucks and control equipment for the remaining cars for Riverfront. The remaining PCC cars were scrapped (although 1 is rumored to have been kept for Elmer Von Dulan's play toy).
I didn't see the press release you spoke of, but it does seem to go right along with what I believe about Girard Avenue / other N. Philly lines.
You have it right.
Germantown Av really has too much traffic to support light rail. It could support a subway, though. But SEPTA has neither the $$$ nor the political support to even begin considering a subway there.
We do need to plan a trip to Philly to ride and take pictures of the last trolley lines in SEPTA history. Sad to see an era pass away.
I am going to the City of Brotherly Love this summer, don't know when but if I do have a date (a Saturday or Sunday it will be, looking more favorably to Sunday) I will post the date here.
Going via. Path to Newark, then NJT NE to Trenton, slide forward on same platform to SEPTA R7 to 30th st or Market East.
I don't want to disappoint you, but I hope you don't mind riding these streetcar lines on a bus. These lines have been replaced with 'temporary bus' service on what's basically been a permanent basis which now appears to about be made officially permanent.
-Robert King
Kool D,
I'll be in Philly on Sunday 6 April for the Rockhill Trolley Museum
chase of D-39 on the Red Arrow Lines. If your interested in teaming
up, email me privately for the details. I'll be coming in from
Seashore via Ulster County returning to Brooklyn Sunday evening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a reminder for the trolley trip on Sunday April 6 on the Media and Sharon Hill lines using a Kawasaki car and chased by line car D-39. Tickets are still available for this trolley trip. Tickets are $35.00 each and can be mailed to Railways To Yesterday Inc., P.O. Box 1601, Allentown, PA 18105. This will be an excellent chance to see D-39 in operation on these scenic lines. The new line car acquired by SEPTA is in operation and being tested so no one knows how long D-39 will be on the property in operation. For more information on the trip please check out the following link. http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/trip2003.htm
We look forward to seeing you on the trip. All proceeds of course benefit the Rockhill Trolley Museum.
[PS-RTY is also trying to onbtain D-39 for their collection.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the basic information above. Hope to see some SubTalkers in
Philly. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
It figures... and just how many times have I stated just why they chose to do things this way? I lost count, so here I go again.
15: Easiest to rebuild. Girard Avenue is a wide street, and the line itself is roughly a block from Callowhill District. Also the most used of the three.
23: Historic interest is what the name of this game is. Sadly, without Germantown District in operation for more than storage, Luzerne closed, Midvale being bus-only, and Southern being converted to bus/trolleybus operations, the closest depot is Callowhill, which is in West Philadelphia... VERY far from Route 23 itself. Their recent conversion of the Broad & Oregon routing on the 23 from "provisional" to "temporary" suggested to me that SEPTA was not interested in any further South Philadelphia streetcar operations.
56: Although Erie and Torresdale Avenues are wide, the closest districts are Midvale and Luzerne... after that, you're stuck with the faraway Callowhill... and this line's east/west across North Philadelphia, which means nearly impossible non-revenue runs.
The sad thing is: all the Subway-Surface car rollsigns include routes 6, 15, 23, 50, 53, and 56... to this day, routes 6 and 53 have limited evidence of any former trolley operations, and Route 50 was discontinued years ago.
I always wondered why they wanted to do 15 first. I first thought they should have brought back 23 first because it went through Center City and paralelled the Broad Street Subway for much of its route.
But in May of my freshman year at Drexel (1997), I rode on a fantrip on 23 from Chestnut Hill to South Philly. And I spoke to someone from SEPTA who said that they would do 15 first for the same reasons you mentioned. And it makes sense. 15 wouldn't be an isolated route because it will share Callowhill District with Subway-Surface route 10 and also briefly shares tracks with 10 on Lancaster Ave.
I also think it kind of made sense for SEPTA to remanufacture PCCs for 15. Think about it, the Kawasaki cars have about 15-20 years of useful life left and that's also how the rehabbed PCCs are supposed to last. When both the PCCs and the K-cars need to be replaced, they can be replaced all at the same time by a large order of new LRVs. Hopefully, that is what will happen. Let's hope restored trolley service on Girard Avenue is a smashing success, in spite of SEPTA's hopes that it won't be.
I didnt see any additional security or National Guards. Actually, the only extra people I saw was the MTA Police blocking off 43/44th Street and Madison, one with a shotgun. But nothing additional at train stations, or the battery tunnel. Anybody see any extra security?
I saw national gaurd in the subway on Tuesday.
I saw U.S. Army, National Guard and NYPD at Penn Station, and NYPD on the 34th Street A/C platform and again on a C train further downtown. That is, those were uniformed personnel. There may have been plainclothes personnel working there too.
I saw the National Guard at the PATH station at 33rd St and extra police at the Pavonia/Newport station in Jersey City.
I took the LIRR into Flatbush Avenue this morning, as I do from time to time. There were six or seven MTA cops on duty, as opposed to the three or four I usually see. I then took the 2 to Chambers, changing to a 1 to Houston. The only difference in police presence I could see was that there were two cops on tunnel-guarding duty at the river end of the Clark Street platform. Usually there's just one.
Interestingly, there is no heightened security visible at the federal building on Varick Street, right across from where I work, which houses a passport agency, a VA service center, an INS detention facility and some other stuff. For the first couple months after 9/11, the blocks of West Houston and King streets alongside the federal building were blocked off to vehicles and pedestrians.
For the first couple months after 9/11, the blocks of West Houston and King streets alongside the federal building were blocked off to vehicles and pedestrians.
Which led to a reroute of the M21 bus that wasn't posted anywhere. I found out about it when the driver politely asked me to leave his bus a few blocks before the end of the route.
For the first couple months after 9/11, the blocks of West Houston and King streets alongside the federal building were blocked off to vehicles and pedestrians.
Which led to a reroute of the M21 bus that wasn't posted anywhere. I found out about it when the driver politely asked me to leave his bus a few blocks before the end of the route.
It also was an annoyance for 1/9 riders. Police barricades were set up right behind the Houston Street exits from the downtown platform. This led to human "traffic jams" at the top of the exits, as people came up the stairs only to find that they could not proceed down Houston and stood around trying to figure out where to go. The cops manning the barricades were unwilling* to offer directions, which led to more crowding at the exits and more delays in leaving the station. There were smaller crowds at the less-used King Street exits too.
* = at least in some cases, the cops may have been unable to help; what with the NYPD being stretched thin, police departments from other states and even from Canada were sending cops to serve barricade duty. I wouldn't think that cops from other states would have any legal authority in New York and would be able to carry firearms.
"Interestingly, there is no heightened security visible at the federal building on Varick Street, right across from where I work"
Is that the building near the corner of Houston? I worked for the 1980 Census there. Used to go to the upper floors with a security guard (nice girl :=)) and look around. Lots of interesting stuff to look at. Some of the rooms looked like they dated from WWII, with all kinds of papers and weird machines. Cabinets fulla stuff....
Interestingly, there is no heightened security visible at the federal building on Varick Street, right across from where I work
Is that the building near the corner of Houston? I worked for the 1980 Census there. Used to go to the upper floors with a security guard (nice girl :=)) and look around. Lots of interesting stuff to look at. Some of the rooms looked like they dated from WWII, with all kinds of papers and weird machines. Cabinets fulla stuff....
That's the building.
(Cabinets fulla stuff.... )
That's an understatement! It's now the home to the Federal Archives. You can look up old census and passenger ship records there.
My co-workers said that there were uniformed NY State Troopers on their Metro-North Trains this morning.
Even as we speak, I'm seing on the news that the Key Bridge, M Street in Georgetown and surrounding streets in VA and DC are blocked by war protesters---As I'm watching this, one of the reporters made a comment about how you could see a flood of protesters coming out of the Rosslyn station (Blue-Orange Line) in Virginia and walking to the Key Bridge---boy how times have changed---the public can get in and out of the area so easily, thanks to the Metro---it's also a lesson to the communting public that just because you take the train to avoid the traffic, which is usually a good thing, now the traffic has extended to the train----Rosslyn is, right now, a cluster-@#$%, because of the protesters---I'll keep my opinions to myself on how I feel about the protesters, let's just say, I feel the only thing they accomplish is to piss off the general public and make themselves look like total a-holes.
Mark
Oh, the April 5th railfan trip looks as though it could be even more interesting thanks to the war---
Different in NYC. The subway has always been used to get to massive rallies and events of all types. Sometimes, NYPD closes the stations nearest to the rally. Depending on your political viewpoint, this is either to prevent the rally from being well attended or to prevent dangerous overcrowding situations.
Unless the rally has massive attendance, its existence may be totally unnoticed on the subway because of the subway's high capacity. I know I passed underneath a Times Square rally yesterday (don't know how well attended it was) and never noticed a thing.
It's interesting how you mentioned how certain stations may be closed at times---it reminded me of how last July 4th, the Smithsonian staition (Blue-Orange Line) was closed for security reasons. Although trains were allowed to pass through, people were forced to use other area stations.
Mark
During the IMF protests here a couple of years ago, Farragut West was closed due to security reasons. However, in the past I had to question WMATA's security as I found an unattended briefcase at Farragut Square not too long before the events of 9/11 and called it to the station managers's attention and he just casually played around with the transfers for the machine and said, 'oh, ok, thanks'. Meanwhile, the passengers saw what was going on and went to the opposite end of the platform. Today, the whole station would be shut down.
Luckily, living in Ballston and working in Fairfax, I didn't have to deal with the granolas in Rosslyn today.
Capitol South became enter only after the Pro-Israel rally at the Capitol last year. Gallery Place sometimes gets similar treatment before and after events at MCI Center.
OK, I figured out what I'm gonna do this Sunday. First I was going to try and do South Brooklyn, but because of the war and heightened security, places you would otherwise be able to sneak into easily (such as the SBK yard) will now probably be guarded. Then, I was gonna do a trip to E180 St again, as well as Concourse, 137 St/Bway, and 148 St/Lenox. But now I hear that the Redbirds will be all gone by next month? I was gonna try and grab some last photos of them during Spring Break week, since that's the next weekday I have off and I wanted to go on a weekday so I could see them running, but I now hear that by then they'll be gone. So, instead, I'm gonna do it this Sunday. I want to go as many places as possible and get as many pictures of Redbirds as possible. Any suggestions?
The Redbirds won't all be gone next month.
The 5 currently has two trains of Redbirds. They will probably be gone within a month (that is, one month from now -- not on April 1). You'll probably find only one running on Sunday.
The 4 currently has four trains of Redbirds. They may also be gone soon, but the situation on the 4 is less clear. On weekends not all 4 trains run -- especially this weekend, with the GO in the Bronx. I wouldn't be surprised if no 4 Redbirds run this entire weekend.
The 7 has lots and lots of Redbirds, and they'll be there at least until summer.
If you can spare a few hours during a rush hour, that's your best bet.
Sorry about that. The kids in my class weren't paying attention to the lesson, so the teacher cut the server off. I had to truncate the message. What I want to know is if anyone has any specific information (David's info was helpful; thanks) about what lines and/or yards there will be redbirds at, other than of course the obvious #7 line and Corona. I'll be there, too, but I want to know if there's any other place I should hit. I'll most likely try again on Thursday, April 17th, first day of vacation, but I don't know if by then there'll be anything besides on the 7.
Welcome aboard CC Local:
It's barely 24 hours since you started posting some really good questions in a flurry on Subtalk. I myself just sit back and amazed at your interest in the NYC Subway system, when I read your postings. There are a LOT of people in this board who share the same love for trains as you, you have come to the right place. Feel free to be amused at some unique quirks some of us have.
Keep up the great questions! We are all one happy family and are here to help you 24/7.
Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap,
Could you post that message in MS Media Player format? We DO need some audio.
lol
Or how about:
CLAP
I like yours better!
I like yours better!
That must of been tiring for you.
Just type out a word. Cut and Paste into 2 words. Cut and paste into 4 words and so on.
I agree. It seems like CCLocal had a lot of questions bottled up, and now is ready to talk about them here at SubTalk.
Welcome aboard the SubTalk Express.
Sometimes this "train" here can cause some motion sickness, but that's part of the ride......it's a lot of fun. I learned a lot.
Me too! I've been here for about 2 years so far.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ya I noticed he posted about 25 new topics within the last 24 hours, LOL.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
CORRECTION: I posted 125 times in 24 hours....lol!! This site is beyond AWESOME!! CC
Hey CC, one thing you will find out. You will never get tired posting on this site. Dave does a great job of overseeing everything and the guys on Subtalk are a pretty good bunch of characters. Enjoy yourself here. I've been posting for over four years and rarely a day goes by when I don't opine on some topic dear to my heart---like the fabulous Sea Beach train.
And not a day goes by without me mentioning the WORLD'S GREATEST BRIGHTON LINE. Truly a joy to ride on tunnel, open cut, embankment, and elevation. Only the Dyre Ave Line has as much variety as this, but the Brighton line offers much more, like an unobstructed view of the NYC skyline on a clear sunny day, or spotless night.
And when Bob starts throwing zingers, I wind up rotflmao.:)
Was an accurate sign of things to come... :)
I send my applause and I take my hat off for you. You did have some brilliant posts going on over here. Welcome aboard. This week is my 1 year anniversary on SubTalk. I even like your handle name. I wish I could change mine. But, born and raised in Bklyn, it has its advantages and I'm sticking with it.
You seem like a true rail fan. We play trivias and stuff and it's a whole lot of fun. A while back, I started a Trainmaster Game based on the subway system and everyone that tried it did excellent. I'm planning one as we speak based on our regional commuter rail systems. It's taking a little longer than I anticipated, but it'll be worth it once I'm done. I hope you'll try it out.
As a final salute to you, the old Arsenio Hall routine:
whooo, whooo, whooo, whooo, whooo.................
So that brings me to my next point. I (depends on what the definition of I is) have decided to start a POLL. No one can complain since anyone can always start a poll about me.
Also, before we continue, this is a 9 month old thread. I see nothing wrong with responding to old threads in lieu of creating new ones, it eases confusion. But please, if you do respond to another post here, warn people so that the usual kvetchers don't come out to complain.
CC LOCAL Poll
What do you feel about CC Local's Posts?
They are a menace to Subtalk and should be shunned or banned
They are rather annoying CC really needs to moderate himself
They would be ok if they were funnier or made sense
Meh, I basically ignore them
They are mildly funny, I don't mind at all
His posts are great, I never miss a one
CC is God's gift to Subtalk. He should make 1500 posts monthly
Search The Internet
But since then, he posted a lot of times, that is an understatement. But many of his posts are garbage satire and at one point, I turned my back against him (I'm know that CC has me on his killfile, it's OK) on the egg cream post. Even Sir Ronald can vouch for that slimey and horrible post that I personally asked Dave Pirmann to remove.
Up until this day, CC Local has never apologized to me on this board for the egg cream incident. Until then, he will be treated as such.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ok you F*****N forgot that this is a board where the WHOLE WORLD can see these posts. Japan, England, wherever, they can see it. Don't you realize that if you really did poison yourself with cyanide, the Feds and whoever will be knocking at my door and haul me in to ask questions if I "assisted" in your suicide? But you could've been a man and simply apologized for that gross mistake, now you are being stubborn. I was at home reading your post that time and I personally emaild to Sir. Ronald asking him on my behalf to post a response how F****ED up you were. The next day is when I asked David Pirmann to delete the posts, he honored my request immediately.
And you won't be sorry after all this time? How about I endorse Pigs and Jersey Mike NOT to go to your house to feel sorry about your pan and suffering? You had you chance to correct a wrong you made, now you are going to be either ignored or be attacked.
BTW: Whenever possible, when I posted something out of pocket or wrong in nature, I stand up as a man and human being and apologize on this same board for my mistake. You clearly have no heart and understanding in yourself
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You shouldn't be discussing medical and psychological problems on a public forum that deals with an entirely different topic. I'm sure there are health-related forums where your posts would be more appropriate, would not annoy others, and might lead to some useful information.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You had you chance the first and second time to feel sorry, now I won't accept it you phony. Should we discuss you hatred towards women as a more recent posts suggests about overhearing two foul-mouthed women on a train you were on?
CG
Really?
Arti
GO CANNIBALISM!!!! :-P
Should have read: All it means is that you can't see their posts.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
By the way, CC, a little advise. Go to some of the field trips, SubTalk events, and MOD trips and meet some of the guys. I guarantee you that people won't abuse people they know personally.
Anyway, if being with a bunch of loud, raucous guys (and the occasional gal and young squirt who tag along - several of the fans bring the whole family) doesn't faze you then by all means go. It's a good cause, and it's your only chance these days to ride those cars in their natural habitat - although we try real hard up at Branford to give the RT fans a good time too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm telling you that you are very wrong, but I doubt you'll believe me. Besides, if anyone gives you sh*t in person, just punch them! If you agree to come on a MOD trip next year, you can be a special guest of me, and I'll do my best to protect you from any and all unpleasantness (not that there will be any).
Chuck Greene
And I second that motion. I've been trying to get CC Local to make a public appearance for months, but so far I've been unsuccessful.
I admit that I am more of a "bully" online than I am in person, but I think it is a common character flaw that many of us have to deal with and try to overcome. As such, after I meet someone in person, it makes it harder for me to "bully" them online. I feel like I gain some sense of connection with the person that allows me to understand why they post the way they do. And we all know that not understanding someone or something is the main reason people bully. So by coming to understand someone (via a real life meet) I am able to overcome my urge to "bully" them over a post or posts. Of course I still don't necessarily come to agree with how or what the SubTalkers posts.
As such, I urge all SubTalkers to try to attend any events that are advertised here where other SubTalkers will be in attendance. This place would become much better off as a result of it.
Actually, the trick is to disagree (as strongly as you like) with what someone says, or does, not what/who they are. This isn’t my idea, it’s taught in any supervisory 101 class. We just forget it, that’s all!
Happy New Year!
I agree with you. I've said it in the past and I'll say it many times more: I don't hate anyone here, I just hate what certain people say and do. And I also hate some people's lack of netiquette and their refusals to admit they have such a lack and take action to correct it.
Actually I don't hate anyone, I only hate actions. I just wanted to use that line.
- Tom Lehrer
It is also very easy to get off the topic. I very often find myself trying to defend a point that has nothing to do with the arguement when it first started. In each reply the focus can get distorted just a little bit until the arguement it totally nonsensical and out of control. The thing is that you don't notice it because the distortions are so small.
"I don't mind. I've seen Subtalkers who were more annoying and/or arrogant than him."
:-P
Just post without whining about the reactions. Or don't read the board. No one is forcing you to do anything here. But you want to have your cake and eat it too. Here's a news flash: The Real World is Everywhere. You Can't Escape From It On Subtalk! Deal! Deal! Deal! With! It!
Here, I'll take it one step further. For various and sundry reasons, I don't respect guys like you. I already know way the fork too dang much about you. And I don't give a flying fork about your problems. You're boring, you're pedantic, you're a trouble maker.
Shut yer yap.
What happened, did you put your pillow down?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But has the term really started to pass from the language?
Amusingly, it's still widely practiced in Albany, particularly in the Assembly Chamber when the State of the State address is given annually. (grin)
A musical talent we shall never see again!!
And as though THAT'S not enough, also have a library of the Goon shows too. Nobody can accuse ME of being well. (grin)
Ah Neddy…
If the "Radio Netherlands" Python casts are released, I'll be all set.
And I will add again, this is not an attack on a person, it is an attack on a person's ACTIONS. Actions are fair game for attack.
Here's another photo identification from the box...
This photo is kind of strange because although the photo is old (paper from the 60's), it must be a reprint from a negative of a much older photo (because obviously it's not the 60's). It looks sort of "official" because of the sign with the numbers in the front.(Remember - I don't have a clue, unlike some of the other mystey photo threads - I'm trying to label some of these photos).
So where is this?
Looks like it's under one of the els in The Bronx.
With the road going in one direction & the El in another I'm sure someone will be able to ID the exact spot.
Mr t__:^)
Just a suggestion, when you scan them, can't you scan them at a bigger size/dpi? The photos will be immense but you will be able to read detail that you can't see in a smaller scan.
They are scanned big, but unfortunately, I have them uploaded into imagestation, and they don't let you remote post them bigger than I have been doing. But here is the link to the large version:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p5d094520e12f27a92eeceefdfc69d1fe/fc79d630.jpg.orig.jpg
You'll have to cut and paste because the links don't work with imagestation either if I remote post the link.
Ahh yes that's a nice big version. That structure in the background right of the el, is that a roller coaster?
I was just going to just mention that. Yes that does look like a rollar coaster. It's definitely not the Rockaway line, but it doesn't look like somewhere near the Cyclone either. Where else were there Roller coasters?
I was just going to just mention that. Yes that does look like a rollar coaster. It's definitely not the Rockaway line, but it doesn't look like somewhere near the Cyclone either. Where else were there Roller coasters?
The "roller coaster" in the background could be some sort of industrial structure, it's hard to tell. I sort of recall seeing frameworks like that used in some sort of material handling. And I can just barely make out what look like a pair of smokestacks above the right side of the "coaster," painted in a striped scheme.
As to the car, it's a Third Avenue Railways #7, and I can discern "Webster Ave" in the sign in the roof.
One of the New York crowd (Paul Matus) should be able to give more info.
I'm not sure it's smokestacks. If you turn the brightness down on the image using Photoshop it looks like a very large building of some sort behind the "roller coaster" and to the right. (It starts roughly above the "a" in the "B..a.." billboard and ends about over the "U" and ".APPUHN" Unfortunately there's hardly any visible detail.
I'm not sure it's smokestacks. If you turn the brightness down on the image using Photoshop it looks like a very large building of some sort behind the "roller coaster" and to the right. (It starts roughly above the "a" in the "B..a.." billboard and ends about over the "U" and ".APPUHN" Unfortunately there's hardly any visible detail.
I think you're right.
For a while, I thought that the Rappuhn Corporation auto-parts business at the right of the photo would provide a clue (the "R" isn't visible, but it's the only letter that would fit and make sense). Unfortunately, a search in Google and Switchboard uncovered no such business.
One other clue might be the Low & Co. "trusses and belts" sign at far right. It gives an address of 999 Third Avenue. While this appears to be an advertising sign and not a logo on the building itself, a business of that type might have a fairly local market and would be unlikely to advertise too far away from its store.
Assuming that the 3rd Ave El street numbers run continuously from Manhattan into the Bronx, 999 3rd Ave is at 59th Street in Manhattan. Does anyone know if the numbers reset (now or in the past) in the Bronx?
Low & Co. is in Manhattan. Above the telephone number at the lower right corner of the billboard, it says "Bet. 59th & 60th Sts." -- which would be right across the bridge from Northern Blvd.
When you blow up the picture you can see the address under the canopie on the building on the right. (right after the word "corporation") Although I can't make out the numbers it's 2 digits with a dash plus two more digits which seems to place it in Queens. (Although some sections of Bklyn have numbering like that the car doesn't look like a BRT car) If I had to make a guess I'd guess it's somewhere along 31st Street.
You think that could be the Astoria El? I can't make out the numbers you mentioned, but it does have a dash in it, which I think only Queens uses. Who had a tolley #7. I don't know too much about trolly history. And what in the world would that roller coaster looking thing be next to the Astoria El?
As noted elsewhere in this thread, it could be an industrial structure, or even a roller coaster erected on a temporary basis. Bear in mind that the piece of property used for the construction of the 63rd Street Connector (the west side of Northern Boulevard, north or 41st Avenue) was a parking lot before that. I'm not sure if there was anything else there before that, and the building on the left looks like the building that's stilll there across the street.
Thinking about it more, this looks like Northern Boulevard just above Queens Plaza. Bear in mind as well that the trolley lines in that area (the precursors of today's Queens Surface Corporation) were painted the same way as the Third Avenue Corporation's trolleys (I might be wrong, but I believe that Third Avenue owned these lines as well at one point).
Didn't trollys use the Queensboro Bridge?
Absolutely, in the outside lanes on the lower lever. They were the last ones to serve Queens.
The Queensboro Bridge Trolley Line, was the last Trolley Line to operate in New York State, till Buffalo started it's LRV service.
8-) ~ Sparky
I'm the only qualified trolley operator fore the company :-(
Don't get much work here do to all the diesel & CNG buses in their fleet < grin >
The Manhattan terminal were the abondoned buildings one sees at 2nd Ave and 59-60 St. In the middle of the bridge was an elevator that too you down to Roosevelt (Then known as Welfare) Island and trolley service went into Queens.
There was also an elevator in the South Queens Tower and
a Trolley Stop for Vernon Boulevard. That's how I discovered
the Bridge Trolley after hiking from Greenpoint. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I'm going with Northern Boulevard. The address on the awning looks like 40-something, which would be consistent with Northern just north of Queens Plaza. Also,
Hmmm, something went wrong with your post. I think this is what you were trying to say this at the end of your post:
Also, this TARS car ran on Steinway St :)(second-hand, perhaps?).
^^^"Also, this TARS car ran on Steinway St :)(second-hand, perhaps?)."^^^
Second-hand, no. Steinway Lines were leased to Third Avenue Railway
during the 1930s and operated with TARS equipment. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Any address on Northern Boulevard right above the Plaza would be 40-something, no question.
Depends on when the picture was taken. Queens didn't start with its current street numbering system until 1915 and it took about 15-20 years before it happened all over the borough.
I stand by my conclusion that it was 1925 or possibly a few years earlier that Queens went to numbering, not as early as 1915. While not conclusive evidence, one can see from the newspaper record that Queens streets and addresses were still listed by their old names in the early 1920s but by the late 1920s the transition was complete.
While it is almost certain the transition was not overnight, there is no evidence that the transition began in 1915 beyond hearsay and conjecture. This is just one of those things that a few people say and everyone else believes.
Here are some pieces of evidence:
An old BMT document dating to 1928 shows old names for the stations on the Jamaica Avenue El. The numbers are in parentheses, suggesting that the numbers were secondary at the time, and that names were used on the Jamaica Avenue El.
All of the stations on the Flushing line which were opened in 1917 had the old names, but 111th Street, opened in 1925 does not.
The IND still uses the old names in some situations. Since the Queens Blvd line opened in 1933 to Roosevelt Avenue and 1937 past it, it is unlikely that the old names would be entiled into the stations if they were so far gone as to have been removed in 1915.
An article in the New York Times from October 22, 1922 uses names to refer to Astoria streets that the city was about to build. No mention is made of numbers. It is unlikely the city would use only the old names if they were obsolete (which they would have been if 1915 was the changeover date) to refer to completely new streets that nobody has ever used before. This is also the case in another article about paving on August 10, 1924.
The most likely scenario is that the name changes had several steps, starting with a draft on how the system would work. This would then be followed by renaming all of the streets on the city's official map, which would not take particularly long. The final and most difficult step would be to survey existing Queens buildings to determine which old address becomes which new one. At that time, each person would have to be informed through the mail or other means what their new address would be. It is unlikely that the numberings were done in a piecemeal fashion, but it is impossible that each new address was determined simultaneously. It is almost certain that determing the exact new addresses took some time, but not a decade. Street sign replacements may have taken that long, but that would not affect references to the new numberings in the press, especially in Long Island City where any changes to Queens would probably manifest themselves first. Yet on August 17, 1923 William L. Stevenson of 243 Nott Avenue, was appointed to the Street Cleaning Bureau. If the streets did begin numbering in 1915, he would have lived on 44th Drive.
It was a very mixed thing for a long time. A number of Queens street signs that were still in use in the 1960s contained both street names (usually the newer street sign on top in a bigger, bolder print) with the older name below it. Subway stations kept both names to avoid confusion, although there were a couple on the Flushing line that just showed the original name on the station into the 60s as well.
My neighborhood, Queensboro Hill, started being developed around 1925 (except a couple of houses on Lawrence St from 1910). As far as I'm aware, the streets have always been numbered.
Yeah, but if you blow up the photo there appears to be a dash in the address on the right.
The changing of the street names in Queens was not done at once. It happened over a period of time. It started in Woodhaven near the corner of Park Lane South and Forest P'kway in 1915. It spread to differnt parts in Queens afterwards at different times. West Queens and the already estlished neighborhoods took a while to change over. East Queens and new roads was done quickly. In jackson Heights there are a row of apartment building on the 35-XX block of 82 St. The address plates in the front of those buildings also state that the address is the 2XX block of 25 St. As a kid, I could never understand why the dual addreses. It wasn't until I saw old subways maps showing "25 St-Jackson Heights" and heard about the "Philadephia" numbering plan in 1915 that is all made sense.
The changing of the street names in Queens was not done at once. It happened over a period of time.
So you've decided to ignore everything I've said and repost your misconceptions. I guess my post was longer than your usual reading material.
It started in Woodhaven near the corner of Park Lane South and Forest P'kway in 1915.
This is a very silly premise. So the street engineers started at a random and highly insignificant location and then moved outward? In what manner did the numbering start there anyway?
If you had said that it started at Queens Plaza, I could at least believe you, although I still wouldn't understand you.
Until any one of the 1915 boosters can show me some evidence that supports their theory, then I will stand by the 1925 APPROXIMATE date to which I have arrived with my research.
If you can get your hands on Brooklyn Eagle Almanics for the period 1914 to 1925 you can check their streets section and see the name changes changing every year. Best place to find them is at the Central Queens Library on Merrick Blvd across of the bus terminal.
On Park Lane South between Forest Parkway and 87 Street there is a New York State sign that states the street changes started at that point in 1915. If you don't believe me, fine. But the sign is there and it backs up what I said.
If you can get your hands on Brooklyn Eagle Almanics for the period 1914 to 1925 you can check their streets section and see the name changes changing every year. Best place to find them is at the Central Queens Library on Merrick Blvd across of the bus terminal.
This is something that I've been wanting to do because the New York Times didn't care about Queens and their coverage of this event was nonexistent. A trip to the LI collection ought to put this debate to rest.
On Park Lane South between Forest Parkway and 87 Street there is a New York State sign that states the street changes started at that point in 1915. If you don't believe me, fine. But the sign is there and it backs up what I said.
If what you say is true then I do want to believe so I will go look for this sign.
You can't miss it. Walk up 85th Street from the J line towards Forest Park. The house is on the western corner of 85th and P.L.S.
I see the sign every day. The year is 1913, not 1915. I wish I had a digital camera. I'd post a picture of it for all to see.
The house the sign is located at has the current address of 85-04 85th Street.
It has been 9 years since I was working over there. I'd have taken a picture, But the sign was a little too high.
Yeah, the house is on an embankment, much higher from the ground up than neighboring buildings.
It's also a beautiful old house, very well kept by it's owner(s).
There is physical evidence in my neighborhood (Woodhaven) that street re-numbering began as early as 1913. A house at the corner of Park LAne South and 85th St has an official plaque denoting it was the "first house to be given an adress in the new numbered street scheme in 1913".
The date of street re-numbering in my part of Queens had to be between 1915 (the year the Liberty Ave elevated opened, using the names for streets on it's stations) and 1917, the year the Jamaica Ave. el opened, which never used names, but numbers for it's station. I'm pretty sure that numbers and names were used concurrently for at least a generation afterwards. Imagine if Park Ave was renamed "Fourth Avenue"? I'd call it Park till the day I died. I still call the Jackie Robinson Parkway the "Interboro".
Like I had said, the changes were done over a period of time. Woodhaven was the first. Other parts of Queens were done at different times. Exactly when all the changes took place I'm not sure. But for about 20 years or so after that both street names/addresses were used. the period ended some time ago. It's been only the last 5 years that the subways have dropped the old names. Probably in about another 20 years people will stop redering to stations as Hudson, Boyd, Oxford, Greenwood and so on.
I think the only place you can see both old and new street names these days is on deeds.
The date of street re-numbering in my part of Queens had to be between 1915 (the year the Liberty Ave elevated opened, using the names for streets on it's stations) and 1917, the year the Jamaica Ave. el opened, which never used names, but numbers for it's station.
This kind of proves that the street numbering was done at least at the time when the Jamaica El was built. As mentioned, most of the Jamaica El stations, built around 1917, were numbered right from the beginning.
This kind of proves that the street numbering was done at least at the time when the Jamaica El was built.
It doesn't prove anything. I've seen a list of stations that shows names for Jamaica line streets and I haven't seen any maps dated before 1924 for the Jamaica El. So I want to see PROOF (not proff) of the Jamaica Avenue El always having numbers.
Imagine if Park Ave was renamed "Fourth Avenue"? I'd call it Park till the day I died.
Park Avenue was called 4th Avenue until the 1890s. The name change was well accepted.
Park Avenue South was called 4th Avenue until the 1950s. Many people who remember the old name are still around. When was the last time you heard someone refer to PAS as 4th Avenue?
The myth that New Yorkers will never accept new names is just that, a myth. The reason that Avenue of the Americas never caught on is not because people were used to 6th Avenue, but it's because the name is unwieldy.
what about 238th Street(Nereid Avenue)?, I heard many local residents still call it 238. Also some people refer to Bedford Park Blvd as 200th Street(Botanical Gardens, NYC rent stablized housing addresses etc), plus Cross Bronx Expressway is still called 177th Street in some places (Hagstrom, NYC rent stabilized housing), change is not always welcome and in some cases not always good (the disruption of the East street numbering with no 200th Street).
You're looking at these name changes from a long distance of time. I'm sure many people used the old names years after they were made.
You're looking at these name changes from a long distance of time. I'm sure many people used the old names years after they were made.
Sometimes they called some by the old names and others by the new - My dad kept calling 30th Ave in Astoria - "Grand Avenue" well into the 1980's yet he NEVER referred to 21st Street as "Van Alst Ave"... Go figure...
We were all wrong, although I was more wrong than others.
The PROFF:
First, there was the matter of the jingle. Charles U. Powell, a chief engineer in the bureau who designed the street-naming system in 1911, modeling it after the Philadelphia grid system, was faced with staunch opposition to his plan from Queens residents. So he wrote* a little jingle to clarify things and mailed it out.
In Queens, to find locations best
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane.
Remember that jingle? Well, this was published in the New York Times on December 15, 2000.
Moving on:
So Mr. Desai went on. The street-naming pattern was used to gradually -- though never completely -- unify the streets of the 60 or so self-contained villages that existed in Queens when it was incorporated into New York City in 1898. It was clear to borough officials then that Queens needed a coherent system. There were 40 Washington Streets. Each village had its own house-numbering method. It was a mess.
So Mr. Powell came up with a plan to rename the streets according to the grid and impose a uniform system of numbering the houses. It took 17 years, and Mr. Powell faced so much resistance that some parts of the borough retained named streets. This is why there are no numbered streets in some neighborhoods and a mix of names and numbers in others.
*An article on Friday about the confusion caused by the street-naming system in Queens misidentified the author of an explanatory rhyme about the street grid. He was the humorist Ellis Parker Butler. (Charles U. Powell, the engineer who designed the grid in 1911, distributed the verse widely.)
Kershaw, Sarah. "Meet Me At 60th And 60th; Many Drivers Find Streets of Queens A Confusing Maze." New York Times 15 Dec. 2000, late ed.: B1
Its 1925? Oh crap! Better remember the advice dad gave me on my wedding day: "If you ever travel back in time, don't step on anything, because even the tiniest change can alter the future in ways you can't imagine."
Even some mapping websites still use names, like in my neighborhood "Hawtree Street" instead of, or in addition to 99 Street, "Ort Blvd" for 157 Ave, etc. And I'd expect them to use the most current only.
I'm going with Northern Boulevard. The address on the awning looks like 40-something, which would be consistent with Northern just north of Queens Plaza. Also, this TARS car ran on Steinway St :) (second-hand, perhaps?).
Mike,
Another fact about TARS cars in use on the Queensboro Bridge. Before
the arrival of the Electromobiles from New Bedford, five cars from
the 1939 homebuilding at Third Avenue Shops at 65th Street. Yes,
cars like BERA's 629, Seashore's 631 and NatCaps 678, plied the
rails of the 59th Street Bridge. IIRC cars 651 ~ 655 were assigned
to this service, built with trolley poles, less the trucks with the
resilient wheel, since they would run mostly on the bridges metal
roadway. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Thanks for the info. My TARS book only covers Manhattan & the Bx, not so much as a footnote about us western Long Islanders :(
Mike,
That was a short lived assignment that didn't last that many years,
by November 1946, when 59th Street line was busified the link to
TATS was severed. Not sure of how long the five cars served on
Queensboro Bridge. For sure during WWII. Then of course, like posted
elsewhere in this tread Third Avenue operating Steinway Lines till
busification in 1939. There's a lot of Third Avenue history, that's
undocumented. Western Queens and Westchester also. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Weren't they doing business as Fifth Ave Coach about that time ?
That may be why there's no reference to them in the two TARS books.
^^^"Weren't they doing business as Fifth Ave Coach about that time?"^^^
This is OT on this board, but when was Surface Transportation, the 3rd
Avenue's rubberized division, brought under the banner of Fifth Avenue
Coach? I don't think it was prior to their last rail operation, which
spun off to "Yonkers Bus". [November, 1952]
IIRC, it was during the mid fifties,
that Fifth Avenue took over control. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
This may sound strange, but could this be a photo of a trolley under the Astoria line, either along 31st Street or Northern Boulevard?
The elevated structure itself looks like what's just beyond the Queensboro Plaza station (as does the building on the left-hand side of the photo).
(This may sound strange, but could this be a photo of a trolley under the Astoria line, either along 31st Street or Northern Boulevard? The elevated structure itself looks like what's just beyond the Queensboro Plaza station (as does the building on the left-hand side of the photo).
I also looked upper left, but to me that looks like the top of a lift bridge. Specifically, this looks like Upper Broadway in Manhattan looking north toward the Broadway Bridge, a location also consistent with the mix of industrial activity to the right. The (roller coaster) structure on the right could be a rock crusher.
Keeping with the lift bridge theme, did either the 9th or 3rd Avenue Els go over a lift bridge? If so, that could be the view facing south from the Bronx, with Bronx waterfront industrial activity to the right. The Third Avenue El would be consistent with "Webster Ave," which someone thought they saw as a destination.
I guess I'm not totally alone. I was thinking basically the same, but from the other side: SB Broadway in Marble Hill, looking towards the Broadway Bridge.
I can't picture what's on the right approaching the bridge, though. If it's old apartment buildings, then there couldn't have been a roller coaster (or somesuch) when this photo was taken.
(I can't picture what's on the right approaching the bridge, though).
What's there now is a one-story row of small stores, across from the Marble Hill Houses. The Marble Hill houses wouldn't have been there then in any event. Based on what's there now, it looks like NB in Manhattan, but that doesn't necessarily mean something.
The run number mounted under one of the end windows of the car (I'm guessing that's what it is - Chicago cars had little round run number signs just like that) looks like it's either 361 or 161. Does anyone have a listing of TARS run numbers and what the corresponding routes were? That might also provide a clue.
Frank Hicks
While I'm leaning towards thinking it's under the Astoria El, It can not be in Manhattan as the trolleys there used conduits and their tracks looked sort of like cable car tracks. SO it is NOT Manhattan. How did trolleys run in the Bronx?
Back to Astoria. SOmeone mentioned the intersection of 31 and Northern. What is on one of the corners of Northern and 31. Is it possible that the Baupp
While I'm leaning towards thinking it's under the Astoria El, It can not be in Manhattan as the trolleys there used conduits and their tracks looked sort of like cable car tracks. SO it is NOT Manhattan. How did trolleys run in the Bronx?
Back to Astoria. SOmeone mentioned the intersection of 31 and Northern. What is on one of the corners of Northern and 31. Is it possible that the "Bauppuhn Corporation"s Building still exists? What's there now?
What is on one of the corners of Northern and 31. Is it possible that the "Bauppuhn Corporation"s Building still exists? What's there now?
Strip joints, mostly ;)
One thing I thought might be a clue to the picture's date was the advertising sign for Exide car batteries. If, for example, Exide didn't come about until 1950, that would provide an earliest possible date for the picture which might help determine what sort of trolley service would have been in existence. Unfortunately, a quick look at exide.com shows that the company has been around longer than cars. Not much help there.
The car in the photo appears to be Third Avenue Railway #7, identical to the car pictured below. Other than the fact that this is almost certainly a TARS line, though, I can't help you with the locale.
Frank Hicks
Now there's a photo that I can relate to ... it's not only TARS, but DBA Steinway Lines ! Thanks for the post, I saved a copy for myself.
Mr t__:^)
One thing for sure just to narrow it down, it ain't Manhattan because there is no conduit slot and it looks like there's an overhead wire.
Based on what yoou said, I'd have to guess the 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx. At first I thought it was looking southward on Northern Blvd under the Astoria El between 39 Ave and Queensboro Plaza. But when I looked at the brown up pic, I noticed on the right a reference to a theature. Definately not Queens.
>>> At first I thought it was looking southward on Northern Blvd under the Astoria El between 39 Ave and Queensboro Plaza. <<<
Maybe you should stick with your first hunch, but isn't the curve the wrong way to be looking southward? How about looking north? That is a lot of steel in that el. Remember, in the ‘30s when this picture appears to be taken there were more tracks from Astoria into the eight track Queensboro Plaza Station on two levels.
On the trolley's destination sign is there a "5" for a route designation on the left side or is it an "S"? I was not able to read "Webster Ave", and thought the last two letters of the street name were "...rt" such as in "Stewart" but I could not make out the first letters.
Tom
When I first saw the photo, I thought it was looking south to the Plaza. But when I saw the picture blown up, what I thought was the structure looks more like a electrical substation. I see something that looks like the tip of a roller-coaster. But now I'm not sure where the picture is. Based on the sign on the right, I think it's Manhattan or the Bronx. More likely the Bronx.
It can't be Manhattan as there is no conduit slot between the 2 rails.
(It can't be Manhattan as there is no conduit slot between the 2 rails.)
Let's say it's right by a lift bridge to the Bronx, which it what it seems like to me based on the structure over the El upper left. Are you sure the shift from conduit to overhead wire took place in the Bronx? How do you do couduit on the bridge?
Same way you do it in the street. The only difference is that the bridge structure has to be a little deeper to house not only the roadway, but the conduit.
I also corrected the spelling. When you pluralize trolley, you don't drop the y and add ies, you simply add the s to the word.
I think you're right. But I'll wait until someone answers where the pic was taken.
If someone out there has track plans of surface lines, that number sure looks like a chaining code (1313 + 75 )
That may be some sort of street code. The City or the Borough President's Office took a lot of photographs of Queens streets in those days, and that may have ahd something to do with a construction project.
The location of that photo is on 31st St., just north of Queensboro Plaza, looking south. Overhead is the Astoria Elevated Line. The car is a Third Avenue Railway System convertible #7, one of 25 cars (1-25) that were sent over from Manhattan.
In 1922, the NY & Queens County Railway Co. went bankrupt, and the former Steinway Railway Co. was placed in receivership under the control of the Third Ave. Railway System. In 1939, the 31st Street Line, also known as the Dutch Kills Line, was converted to bus with the entire Steinway Lines, with the exception of a short piece of track over the Queensboro Bridge from Second Ave. in Manhattan to Queensboro Plaza. This was known as the Queensboro Bridge Railway. It was operated by Steinway Omnibus, the successor to the Steinway Lines trolley operation. The Queensboro Bridge line lasted until April 1957 as the last trolley operation in NY State at that time.
Wow, I can't believe I was right! I swear, when I said 31th Street it was only a guess!!!
31 St doesn't curve to the left; in fact, if we were looking south, the el would make a slight right onto Northern Blvd. It is possible that the tracks would make a left and immediate right onto Northern.
I took a photo this morning of Northern Blvd at Queens Plaza East (will post later), and I'm still not convinced either way. I'll check out southbound 31 St this afternoon.
If you print out the photo, you'll see an office building in the haze off to the right. It looks like the building that's still at Northern Boulevard by Queens Plaza North (about 50 feet west of the northernmost stairway to the Queens Plaza station.
That right turn onto Northern could be what looks like the roller coaster that the other posters were mentioning.
Sorry, after looking at the blown up picture I realized the thing that looked like the roller coaster cannot be part of the el. Even I can be wrong once in a while.
Now, could it possibly be 31th Street Northbound right after it turns off Northern? If it is Queens it could only be 31st as the Flushing Line and the Jamaica Line have their el pillars on the sidewalk, not the street.
OK, where's our trolley experts? Where did TARS have routes in Queens? And is that definitely a TARS car?
OK, I don't know if this means anything but I was thumbing through New York Transit Memories by Harold Smith and came up with this picture which is proof (or proff) that there were TARS cars on 31st Street. They were loaned to Steinway Lines.
I think the picture was taken on 31 St or Northern Blvd looking SOUTH.
I believe this is one of a group of older cars that was leased
to Steinway Transit. TARy did not have passenger cars numbered
in single digits in the 1930s!
>>> TARy did not have passenger cars numbered in single digits in the 1930s! <<<
They might have been (re)numbered when they were leased.
Tom
I think that was what he was saying.
>>> I think that was what he was saying. <<<
I took it to mean that these were older cars. But these cars have the destination sign mounted high like #4573 in the Flushing picture, not just over the windshield as shown in some of the other pictures of TARS streetcars. Therefore this #7 is probably a contemporary of #4573.
Tom
It isn't 31 St northbound; we would see 39-Beebe Ave station.
It isn't 31 St southbound; from this morning's field survey, the el doesn't bends only to the right.
I'm sticking with Northern Blvd, south of 41 Ave, looking north.
It's actually a little to the north of 41st Avenue -- the building on the left is still on the northeast corner of the little stub that runs towards the Sunnyside Yards.
After the IRT (now BMT) Astoria El leaves 39 Ave, 31 St ends and the train runs over Northern Blvd until it approaches the Plaza. It curves a little to the left before it makes the turn in Queensboro Plaza Station. When I saw the blown-up photo, I saw what I think was a electrical substation and something that looks like the top of a roller-coaster. At least it looks like a curved top of something.
I'm a little guy shy about saying where this photo is. Paul Matus had a photo the last few days. I was quite sure it was the BMT Broadway El and it turned out to be in New Jersey..
Actually it turned out to be in Pennsylvania but that's ok :-)
At least you got the general idea.
Hehe, well at least there is NO DOUBT that this is in New York. It's just a matter of where and in which borough. I'm leaning toward the Astoria El, or at least nothing here has proven it is not the Astoria El, actually most of the arguments have proven for the Astoria El.
So after all this, what did we decide?
The Astoria El at 31st street and Northern Blvd looking nort(or south - there seems to be people thinking either). Since the Astoria El is still intact, I'm going to have to get over there to do a field report, unless someone else lives near there.....
I would say south taken in the morning.
I say that because of the way the shadow is off the trolley car. If the picture was taken in the late afternoon, the site would have alot of traffic. Granted there wasn't much traffic at the time. But traffic anyhow.
The WF Redbird punch-out models I purchased at the museum store in GCT are really nice....great way for those of us financially strapped to by a few Redbirds of our own! I am hoping they will offer other punch out models of other car types......imagine a punch out Standard or a Lo-V? For 3 Bucks, you can't go wrong!
Have three on my desk: Red Bird, Mack, & HBLR
Thurston, You should probably configure your browser not to fill in forms/password fields for you... Looks like your browser helpfully filled in the fields from the last thread you posted to when you replied to the Redbird Punch Out Models thread.
Got a new version of Netscape ... it asked me a question ...
opps, thanks for the input !
I have the R33 9321 Model punch out right on top of my computer in my house.
FYI 9321 was scrapped b/c it was on a fantrip a few years back coupled to F116 Observation Car and it had serious mechanical problems after that trip.
At least I have a memory of 9321 not only as the cutout model on my computer but also a pic:
R33 9321
#9338 7 Flushing Local
Do they have ML's too?
No, only 9321 (the only R-33WF scrapped thus far).
It had to be scrapped before it could be made into a punch-out?
If the model was of an existing car, the other R-33WFs would be jealous.
What exactly is a punch-out model?
It's really simple.
You buy this cardboard sheet with the Redbird parts on there, with the sides and top and so forth. You pop them out and fit them together. It's like a cheap puzzle.
Well, I'm not, but the train in the photo might think so.
I'm not sure of the class of cars this is, I wonder if this is a future Redbird. The photo is labeled 1963, so it's 40 years ago! I wonder what the color of the train is - too bad it's a b/w photo.
I thought it was a cool photo, so I'd figure I'd post it. Don't need location identification here, it's clearly East 180th Street.
Well, it is a Red Bird, vs. "Arch Roof" from BMT/IND division & it's from the last group (single pain of glass in Storm Door window).
Notice also that the East 180th Street station in the photo still had wooden platforms. When did they get rid of the wood?
When did they get rid of the wood?
Giuliani got rid of the porno and strip joints.
I just found another photo with the one above (I don’t have scanned yet), and it is the same train from a different angle. It is car 8610. So that would make it an R29. I found another photo of 8610 on this site from 1970. So in my b/w photo from March 1963 (above post), 8610 was indeed red and a bit happier and less rusty than it was in this shot (below) from 1970 at 238th St.
Does anyone have a more current photo of 8610, I'd love to see it. I assume it made it to the Redbird scheme.
Hmmm, let's press fast forward to June 5, 2002.
Yep, looks like a Redbird to me!
COOL! Same angle right down to the crossover!
And it's a 2 to Flatbush Avenue and everything!
Hey, wait a minute -- didn't the 2 go to New Lots until 1983 or so?
In any case, this was a rare shot, as 2 trains don't often use the middle track at E180 -- but this was during a midday GO.
Hey, wait a minute -- didn't the 2 go to New Lots until 1983 or so?
You brought up an interesting point, so I had to go check that out. My old map from 1961 (only the IND (A-GG) had letters at that time-the BMT and IRT just show routes), shows a "7th Ave/Broadway express" running between 241st St and Flatbush Ave, and "7th Ave/Broadway Express" running between 145th St and New Lots Ave. The next map I have is from 1968, and it shows the 2 running to New Lots and the 3 running to Flatbush.
Interesting. I am missing any map between 1961 and 1968, but since my old photo was taken in 1963, I guess that was just when they started using numbered routes on the IRT, but did not switch the 2 and 3 Brooklyn Terminals yet. That must have happened some time between 1963 and 1968.
Also interestingly, the 7th ave trains only went north of East 180th rush hours and all day weekends. Middays, some 7th ave Expresses (no #'s, but it's the future 2) terminated at East 180th, and some went through to Dyre Ave. This would explain the 1063 photo on the center track. It was normal service, unlike your rare shot of the 2 in current times on the middle shot.
So it is a bit interesting that in 1961 the Dyre Line was served weekdays by the 7th/Bway Line and White Plains line was served middays by the Lexington Line.
Actually, no, the 2 and 3 didn't switch Brooklyn terminals until the early 80's. I'm sure of that. I think it was 1983, but I'm not sure of that. The usual reason: access to yards.
No, you are right, in the 1968 map it shows the 2 running to New Lots and the 3 running to Flatbush (pre-1983 service). It's the 1961 map that shows the 2 to Flatbush and the 3 to New Lots. So the switch they made in 1983, was actually a throw-back to service in 1961. (Somewhere between 1961 and 1968 they changed to the 2 to New Lots, and the 3 to Flatbush). Maybe I wasn't clear of that in my earlier post.
Oh! Sorry. It was early in the morning.
I wonder why the terminals were switched in the 60's only to be switched back in the 80's.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc....
The front window identifies this train as belonging to the R-26, 28, 29, 33ML and 36ML groups. The R-26's and R-28's were not orginal Redbirds but became so after they went through the General Overhaul.
Larry, RedbirdR33
How do (or did) the ML and WF front windows differ?
That's probably an R26 or an R28. Looks a little dusty (would have been in service for a few years).
wayne
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030320/161/3kebo.html
They still have straps on thier cars. Why can't we?
---Brian
Preference, I suppose.
I guess because the MTA did a multi million dollar study and the high priced consultants decided that straps were unnecessary.
Maybe MTA found more people can hold on to overhead rais than to straps.
...it is all too obvious that finally, sadly, the end of the line is near for the remaining Redbirds. Like the ancient Lo-Vs they replaced 40 years ago, these handsome cars became a symbol of the city...the trype of subway car most associated with New York. The stalwart old workhorses have seen the city they served go through many changes.....they have endured through protests, riots, blackouts, heatwaves, blizzards,and great social and economic changes. Even when they were scarred with rust and graffitti, they seemed to have a sense of permanence......something of the steel-forged fabric of the city that was continually adapting to the changing fabric of the city.Now, these faithful old warriors are reaching the proverbial end of the line.....When these cars were new 40 years ago, America was still enjoying the innocence of the 50s, and the optimisim of the 60s.Even the interior car card ads they displayed inside those many years ago reflected a long-ago time....Miss Subways....Ballentine Beer...Bowery Savings Back....The World's Fair...Campbell's Soup....Wrigley's Doublemint Gum.....Think of how many future subway buffs got thier first look at the subways through the railfan window of these durable cars over the decades......Goodbye, old friends! You will never be forgotten, and will continue to ride the rails in the memories of many after you have reached the bumping block for the last time. Thanks for the memories, old friends!!
Very true ... the 'birds survived the "deferred maintenance" era, the graffiti epidemic, the high crime rates of the 1980's, the Second Avenue debacle, and so on. Pretty amazing.
...and operation PANTY Liberty shield.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sniff..sniff...That was beautiful.
SO our friends were almost new in This Photo.
Don't just stand there with tears in your eye, join a museum & help to preserve some of you favorite cars.
It can be a very rewarding endevor, no prior experience necessary.
Earlier this week I got a letter from the MTA which mentioned that I'm considered for the Traffic Checker job.Finally after taking the test back in October 2001 and waiting and waiting,my chance is finally here!Tommorow I'm going downtown to 1250 Broadway to fill out a whole bunch of paper's and who know's what else.To me tommorow is a big day and I feel nervous.Wish me luck everyone and hopefully by the end of the year,you'll see me around in the subway station,on a train or standing near a bus stop taking down statistical info.
Make sure you count EVERY one of those passengers that pass through that subway station!
Or as Selkirk says, "Count all the geese" . But seriously ,the best of luck to you. May it be a fun job and maybe lead to something else!
Chuck Greene
Oh yeah,I'm hoping it lead's me to a position as a Conductor as soon as the next test comes up....whenever that'll be and seeing as there hasn't been a C/R test in years,it may not be anytime soon.But once I go for C/R,I'm staying there,I'm not going higher.I don't think I could handle it.
You don't want to be a T/O? I can't blaim you!
Chuck Greene
Hey,the Traffic Checker is the one my brother saw first.He saw it,he talked me into it and I went for it.So here I am,ready to do whatever it takes to get this job.And it's a start.When the C/R test comes up,I'll go for that.But I won't go for T/O,I don't think I could handle it.
Good for you. I hope you are hired. Good luck, work hard, pay attention to your supervisors. You never know how far you can go.
Good luck with the job. If I get back to work, I'll be looking for you.
Remember as you count the geese that train was "ON TIME" not EARLY
Get it?
FINALLY!!! After going on Friday to do practically NOTHING except get told what the job was gonna be all about,the Transit employment center called me about an hour ago and told me to go back this Monday at 8:30AM.Gotta take with me the $50 money order,ID's, and birth certificate.We shall see what happen's on Monday and I'll gladly post here what went down and when I start my training for Traffic Checker.
-dances- WOOHOO!!!! I'm super duper excited!!!
Congratulations. Please remember to be more polite to your bosses and the public than you are on Subtalk.
It is the PM rush and someone places a firebomb in Atlantic-Pacific-Flatbush, and lights fires on each track and some smokebombs on the platforms
You are the BMT trainmaster, with the IRT trainmaster, you have to make a route plan, what do you do, all tracks in and out of the station are impassible
That would be somewhat tough to do. There are a lot of tracks at that hub and the stations, particularly the BMT and IRT stations, are pretty far apart. There is also a lot of security at that hub. I counted seven cops in bulletproof vests and rifles standing on the LIRR platform last night at about 6:40 p.m. I'm sure there are more at the Pacific Street mezzanine and in the underpass connecting the IRT, LIRR and BMT stations.
I know this scenario is only for argument's sake, but given the level of security right now, I don't see how all of it could happen, especially the part about fire on the tracks. I can see a firebomb though.
oH! ANOTHER FOOTNOTE:
M service only between Chambers and Metropolitan
IMMEDIATELY ASSESS THE SITUTATION FROM COMMAND AND T/O'S IRT trainmaster fends for him/herself
Lets take a look one segment at a time:
SOUTHBOUND:
TUNNEL-Using Manhattan-bound only track, trains already in tunnel discharge all service at Lawrence st, and relay back to Manhattan, in passenger service. All other trains north of Whitehall, relay at either Whitehall or Canal St (upper level, of course.)
BRIDGE-Discharge each train one at a time, and do a special relay through 4th Ave track (reverse signalling can be done from Dekalb to lawrence or use flag personnel.) Conductor stays in last car and buzzes T/O when the first switch is passed. T/O goes to other end and runs lite and wrong way through tunnel, switches back to regular track north of Lawrence st. Find decent parking spot on now closed off express track between Prince st and south of 34th st.
Temporary service changes: (all lines in 2 sections except Q local, which will run only one section)
N-Astoria to Whitehall and 36th st/Brooklyn to 86th st
R-71/FH to Canal and 36th St to 95th St/Brooklyn
Q Local-PP to BB in Brooklyn only
Q express-SUSPENDED, ALL TRAINS DISCHARGE AT NEXT STATION
W-Astoria to 34th st/Broadway and 36th st to CI
There is one minor note I left out, the S/B trains alreay on Bridge towards Brooklyn, should discharge all customers for the special layup at Dekalb Ave. Reading the current posts sounded funny and weird to me as it really says to throw customers out onto the Manny-B.
So discharge each train at Dekalb, then use 4th Ave track for layup and reverse towards Lawrence
(J): Skip-stop service suspended. Trains will run local in Brooklyn.
(M): Every other train runs to Broad Street or Lawrence Street. All Queens-bound trains skip Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing. Trains en route in Brooklyn run from 36 to Bay Parkway.
(N)
1) Astoria to Whitehall, every other train
2) Astoria to Lawrence, every OTHER train
3) 9 Street to 36th, if wrong-railing is possible
4) 59 Street to 86th (Sea Beach Line)
(Q)
1) Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, LOCAL, use Brooklyn-bound platform @ Prospect Park
2) Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, EXPRESS, use Manhattan-bound platform @ Prospect Park.
(R)
1) 71 Avenue to Canal, via 63rd Street tunnel and Broadway Express to Prince St.
2) 36 Street to 95th Street.
(V): 71 Avenue to Church Avenue.
(W)
1) Astoria to Canal. Express 57-Canal.
2) 36th to CI
(Z): Suspended. If trains are already en route, turn them at Chambers or Canal, there's not room at Broad for three trains turning. If in Queens run local en route to Broadway Junction, terminate->yard. If in Brooklyn or Manhattan run express to Broadway Junction.
Damn, why doesn't Gold Street have any crossovers?
Cannot do a shuttle from 9th st to 36th st for access to the F train, you have 2 services terminating at 36th Street, in addition to the shuttle. The R line needs both local tracks at 36th st, while the W uses the two express tracks.
You're right, I didn't even think of that. Boy, what were they thinking when they designed the 4th Avenue Line? Not one crossover, anywhere, from 34th Street on the Broadway Line or Bway-Lafyette on the 6th to 95th Street. And of the pointless "cross-over"s that consist of two switches only, they don't even have one north of DeKalb or at 59th Street.
(G) extended to Church Avenue
(J)(Z) unchanged
(M) Broad St - Metropolitan Av
(N) Astoria - Lawrence St (all (W) trains on Broadway/Astoria Line become (N) trains)
(N) 36th St - 86th St
(Q) Forest Hills (taking extra (R) trains) - 63rd St - 6th Av Local - Culver Local - Av X
(Q) Prospect Park - Brighton Beach (if the TA hadn't messed up the Franklin Avenue line then it could've been Fulton/Franklin - Brighton Beach)
<Q> Prospect Park - Brighton Beach
(R) Forest Hills - Whitehall St
(R) single track shuttle (Northbound track): 9th St - 36th St
(R) single track shuttle (Southbound track): 36th St - 59th St
(R) Shuttle: 59th St - 95th St (2 trains, meeting at 86th St, using Northbound track at 59th St)
(V) extended to Church Avenue
(W) 36th St - CI
This time we do our daily constitutional.
I have touched upon daily inspections of locomotives numerous times in this little column over the years. Today we are going to look more in depth at the procedures for performing the daily inspection.
In the US, the FRA requires that locomotives are to receive a daily inspection. To clarify this point a bit, the rules state a locomotive shall be inspected once every calendar day. Based on this measure, the daily inspection works like this; if I inspect a locomotive at say 0005 (five minutes after midnight on the morning of the 1st, this locomotive can be used without another inspection up to 2359 hours on the evening of the 2nd. At that point in time the locomotive must be inspected again with the inspection card and accompanying form filled out and dated for the 2nd. If not inspected by 2359, the locomotive then goes out of date. If the locomotive is used on the 2nd and not inspected, this would be a violation of the daily inspection rules. If the FRA checks locomotive files and discovers this fact, the railroad can and will be fined.
Going out of date on a daily inspection (often referred to as just a daily) will not cause the locomotive to suddenly cease running or anything drastic. Now should the Engineer operating that locomotive be caught by the FRA using it out of date, they are subject to a fine of up to $5000, that is $5000 per out of date locomotive in their consist. The railroad will also be fined as well. The FRA will allow some latitude in any discipline. I know of a couple of Engineer’s who have been caught operating out of date locomotives and they were issued a warning but no fine. However, if they should be caught again they would be assessed some sort of fine as they had already received a warning.
The daily inspection can become a sticky issue. Some railroad officials and yardmasters do not have an understanding of the daily inspection rules or the process. Sometimes I can’t fault them for their ignorance, I fault the industry. There have been cases where the some railroads have neglected to clearly address this issue in some instances. In other cases though, the industry has made serious efforts to teach these folks the necessary aspects of the importance of the daily inspection. Those that know and understand the requirements and still chose to attempt to get employees to overlook the daily inspections are merely attempting to cut corners.
All the Locomotive Engineers on CNIC have been given a class in the requirements and performing of daily inspections. We also review these requirements at our triennial recertification classes.
The FRA very clearly states the employee operating the controls of the locomotive is the person responsible to assure the engine or engines in their charge are in date and compliance of the daily inspection rules. There is no such thing as "not your locomotives" when it comes to operating out of date units. Unfortunately though, some people in charge don’t grasp this concept very well, if at all. I’ll delve into this a little later. This requirement doesn’t mean the Engineer operating the locomotive has to perform the daily, only they have to assure the locomotive is in compliance. The Engineer taking charge of the locomotive may very well be able to summon the mechanical department to come out and perform the daily depending upon the circumstances.
When taking charge of one or more locomotives the first thing I do is check the daily inspection cards on each unit to see if they are in date. Time and date are factors here. Say I am beginning my tour of duty at 0700 and the locomotives in my charge were given their most recent daily inspection yesterday, I can use them without performing the daily inspection. Even if I should work twelve hours this day, my tour of duty would finish within the same calendar day. Thus, the locomotives would still be in compliance with the daily inspection rules. This doesn’t mean I will not look them over before I take charge, it just means I do not have to daily them. I always look them over no matter what.
Now if I had begun my tour of duty at say 1600 hours and the units had yesterday’s date for their last daily inspection, I would need to take care of the daily inspection before midnight. Starting at this point in time could easily have me working well past midnight and the locomotives in my charge would need to be given their daily inspection by 2359 hours.
Anytime I am placed into the situation where it is even remotely possible to work past that magic 2359 point in time, I normally perform the daily inspection on my locomotives. And I normally perform this inspection upon receiving the locomotives to my charge. Better to take care of it first thing than to try to perform it later. Although again, it can be difficult to make some managers understand this reasoning.
Upon completion of the daily inspection, if there are defects or problems, I must report them immediately and am not supposed to use the defective locomotive until repairs have been completed. On occasion, I have been instructed by a manager to use this locomotive anyway. If this is the case, I try to arrange it where they inform me on the radio where God and everybody will hear it. I will then write up a non-complying tag and apply it to a conspicuous location on this locomotive stating the date, time and location of the inspection, the nature of the defect and any instructions or restrictions for movement, if necessary. It is very seldom that I am ordered to use a defective locomotive though as it can lead to tremendous exposure and liability to the company it something bad should happen such as a personal injury or some other episode as a direct result of a defect or problem.
If repairs are required before I use the locomotive, I will contact the necessary parties to arrange the repairs. In some cases I might be instructed to move the locomotive(s) involved over to a track where repairs can be made. It might be a locomotive servicing track or even just another track that will allow normal operations to proceed around me. This would not be a problem. Now if the Yardmaster would instruct us to maybe grab a track while heading that way and set it over, that would be a problem. Yes, it has been tried and no, I did not comply with their wishes. More on that in a bit too.
So now I have boarded my power and observe the lead unit is either due or perhaps out of date on its daily inspection. I will undertake the inspection but must protect myself before doing so. Under FRA regulations, I must have a positive method of protection even though this is my power. A member of my crew can sit on the Fireman’s side of the lead or controlling unit to protect anybody else from attempting to operate this power while I am inspecting it. Or, I can place a warning device to alert anybody who enters the cab if it is unoccupied not to move this locomotive.
My device is a plastic blue ring. This ring looks like a big blue washer or bushing and fits onto the throttle handle. This is one of the exact same types of warning devices our mechanical department employees use. This blue ring informs anybody coming up to the controls that there is an employee on, about or in between the rolling equipment and that it is not to be moved. The FRA says Engineers should have an orange ring, but orange paint will not stick to the type of plastic this ring is made from. So mine is blue and also has my name on both sides of it so anybody encountering it knows exactly who this ring belongs to.
I’ll make certain the reverser handle is removed from the control stand and that the generator field switch is also in the off or open position. These are two more safety measures that are also required by the rules when leaving the cab of a locomotive unattended. I usually take the reverser handle with me as well. Now I am ready to begin the process.
A look around the cab starts this ball rolling. The FRA blue card is checked first off the make sure it is in place and then to make certain the unit is not due or perhaps overdue a quarterly inspection. I cannot operate this or any locomotive without the blue card. Then I check all the lights in the cab, overhead, reading (if equipped), toilet and gauge. I operate all the windshield wipers to assure they work properly and also observe the blades on them to assure they are in good order and not falling apart or badly worn. I sound the whistle and ring the bell to assure they are working properly. I illuminate the head, ditch and number lights to assure they are working properly. I check for any type of garbage, debris or equipment on the cab floor. Any hardware items including wrenches or flagsticks are properly secured. Trash is placed into the garbage can or bag. I look to see if the cab is supplied with the proper materials needed such as drinking water, ice (in cooler equipped units), refrigerator is working (on such equipped units), crew packs with the necessary paper towels, toilet paper and the like, fusees (flares) and air hose gaskets. I check for garbage bags. If there any that are full, they are removed and placed into a dumpster. Should the floor need to be swept, a straw broom does that trick, if the locomotive is equipped with one. Any and all windows that need cleaning are also washed.
Now at locations with the proper forces available, I will summon for them to come and take care of a messy cab. They can do the clean up and supplying while I take care of the inspection.
On units equipped with an alerter or crew vigilance system, I test the system to assure it is working as designed. I also turn off all gauge, number and cab lights as well as the radio and telemetry receiver on trailing units, pull in rear view mirrors, wing windows and awnings and close all the windows and doors.
Before I exit the cab, I will operate all the sanders. While I cannot observe their operation from the cab, I can check on them later when I perform my inspection from the ground.
Once finished in cab I move outside. I open engine room doors and check fluid levels. There is a dipstick to check the locomotive lube oil level. A small dipstick is located on the air compressor to check the oil level in it. One units equipped with mechanical governors there is also a sight glass on it for checking the oil level. Cooling water levels are also checked. While checking the cooling water level, I also check to make certain the filler cap on the expansion tank that holds the cooling water is securely tightened. A pair of fuel line sight glasses mounted side by side are used to check for possible clogged fuel filters. The glass closest to the diesel engine (prime mover) should always have fuel in it when the locomotive is running. The other glass should be empty and clear. If there is fuel in it this means the fuel filters are either beginning to clog or are completely plugged depending upon how much fuel is in this glass.
While poking around the engine room I will also look for fuel, oil or water leaks. I will also observe for exhaust leaks by both looking for telltale signs and listening for distinctive sounds exhaust leaks make. I also look for any other signs of problems that may be developing such as anything that appears to be loose or missing. The starter motor is also checked to assure the safety cover on it is in place. All other rotating components that require safety covers are also observed to assure such covers are in place and secured. I also check the inspection covers to assure they are closed and properly latched.
I then move to the rear of the engine room and look around the air compressor. Again I am looking for leaks or problems. Just behind the compressor is an open storage area. This is often referred to as the air room. Some railroads store equipment in here such as spare air hoses, shorty or dummy hoses, air hose wrenches and other tools such as a hammer and chisel. Some railroads use a storage bin or locker to store this equipment while others use a rack or uncovered box. A chain may also be stored in here as well as a spare jumper cable. The jumper cable is what is used to electronically connect two or more locomotives. Any items on the floor must be removed and stowed in their proper holder so as to eliminate any tripping hazards.
If I have more than one unit in my locomotive consist I will repeat the above procedure on them. Between the units I check the safety chains to assure they are properly connected and secured and also at the correct height. I also look down from here to positively ascertain (a favorite railroad expression) that all of my multiple unit hoses are properly connected. They cannot be crossed as this can create a great deal of problems. I also check to make certain the jumper cable is properly secured into the receptacles on each locomotive.
Any carbody doors that are opened are closed and latched. Before I conclude the top deck inspection I look over the unit for oil, grease, ice, snow or any other tripping and slipping hazards. I observe all walkway and platform lights to make certain they are illuminated and in good working order. Handrails and grab irons are also observed to make certain they are in place, of the proper length and secure. Handbrakes are checked to make certain they are released.
With the top deck inspection completed I climb off and prepare to begin my inspection of the underside of the locomotive. From the ground I’ll observe various components and hardware. As I climb off, I observe the grab irons and steps observing for anything loose, damaged, broken or missing.
Once on the ground I observe all the running gear. Wheels are examined for signs of cracks, spalling, shelling or flat spots. The trucks are checked for cracks, or signs of other abnormalities. Pedestal liners that line the wheel housing are observed to check for cracks or damage. All of the brakes and rigging which includes the brake shoes and brake cylinders are checked. The brake piston travel is checked to assure it doesn’t exceed allowable limits.
The manual bleed valves on the two main reservoirs are opened and any moisture that has accumulated is drained off. Moisture collectors in the air brake system that are placed in front in of the fuel tank on the right side are also drained of any condensate that may have built up.
I look at the tops of the traction motors to make sure the covers are in place and that traction motor leads are secured and not loose or dangling. All piping is also observed for damage and I keep an ear tuned for possible leaks. All cut out cocks are checked to see they are secured and not loose. I also look for signs of fuel, oil or water leaks. Ground and step lights are observed to see they are properly illuminated.
A look at the rail and surrounding area checks the sanders. There should be sand on the rail and surrounding area if they are working properly. Sometimes the sander hoses get clogged. Wet sand can cause that and sometimes smacking the hose or piping directly above it with an air hose wrench will break it loose. If not, it’s a call to the roundhouse for assistance.
In between the units, all jumper cables are examined to assure they are in place and properly hung in the hangers. All multiple unit (MU) hoses are checked to assure they are properly made and all MU cut out cocks are properly positioned and that these cocks are not loose. Any hoses not being used are placed into the holders so they are not hanging down. I also listen for any leaks between any of the MU or brake pipe hoses. I observe the pilots and end sheets to assure they are not too high or low above the top of the rail.
On the front of the lead unit I will pull in all MU hoses and tuck them into the holder behind the snowplow or if not equipped, the holder for them mounted onto the pilot. The brake pipe hose is placed on top of the plow or connected to the protective holder if so equipped. Any jumper cables not being used have their ends plugged into the dummy receptacles. If units are not equipped with dummy receptacles, the jumper cables are removed and hung on brackets inside the air room. Jumper cables are not allowed to be left with one end plugged into a hot circuit and the other end hanging free.
The snowplow is checked to assure it is secured and not damaged and not mounted too high or too low above the top of the rail.
Finally, I get back on board and perform the locomotive brake test. There are three types of tests to perform when the locomotive is standing. An application and release of the engine (independent) brakes is made. An application and release of the automatic brake valve is made next and finally an application of the automatic brake valve is made and then a release by means of the actuating portion of the independent brake valve is done. In all of these tests, the locomotive brakes are observed to set and release in all three tests. Usually, the Conductor or Brakeman will assist in the brake test. A leakage test is also performed and leakage must not exceed 3 psi per minute.
The daily inspection cards are signed and the form F-1443 is filled out to verify the daily inspection has been made and completed.
The first time I move the locomotive(s) I perform a running brake test. In this test while moving I make an application of the automatic brake valve and feel the retarding effect as the braking action takes effect and then release the application and feel the release taking effect.
This then, completes the actual daily inspection.
I had mentioned several issues dealing with managers that do not take the locomotive inspections seriously. I had one episode several years ago in which I was to double up somebody else’s train for them. The first thing I did upon boarding the power was go through each unit to assure they were all in compliance with their daily inspections. The yardmaster went berserk. He started screaming at me on the radio that I am not required to check or perform daily inspections on these locomotives, as they were "Not my engines." I tried to politely explain to him that he was incorrect and being that I was operating them they indeed were my engines. He began to threaten me with discipline telling me I was disobeying a direct order.
I futilely attempted to explain to him the Assistant Super had specifically told me to make certain all of the locomotives I am operating are in date. Several weeks earlier an Engineer had been caught operating an out of date unit by the FRA. They issued the guy a warning but told the Assistant Super that if they came back and caught anybody operating an out of date engine again, there would be fines assessed. I also told this guy that contrary to what he thought, he did not have greater authority than the Assistant Super. It was like talking to the wall though. Of course this guy has often been referred to by many as "empty head" so I suppose I needn’t have to say more.
When all was said and done, I took care of inspecting the power and went about the business of doubling up this train. When the yardmaster drove out to pick me up, he started in right away that he was going to turn me in to very high sources and how it was going to cost me my job. I told him to go ahead and that I would call the FRA and turn him for trying to order me to violate federal law. Being the conversation was on tape having been recorded on the radio, I had him over a barrel. He didn’t care though; he still threatened me with discipline. I also told him about the $5000 per locomotive fine that is involved. I mentioned to him that I don’t have that kind of cash lying around to make him look good.
The Trainmaster on duty chose to take the low road and refused to get involved. His silence in this matter indicated to me that he wasn’t willing to make certain that rules compliance was part of the procedure. When I asked him why he wasn’t getting involved and trying to set the yardmaster straight, he merely shrugged his shoulders and told me I should realize this guy is trying to get the job done. Some leadership, eh?
Several days later I brought the issue up with a high-ranking official who told me I chose the proper method in taking care of the engine inspections and not backing down. He also stated that should this happen again, I should inform the employee telling me to disregard the inspection to immediately call this man and discuss it and that I should go about taking care of the inspection.
Now if a company official directly orders me not to perform the inspection, I will question this order and inform them of the fact this is a Federal violation. If they demand I not perform the required inspection, I will then ask them directly if they are instructing me to violate Federal law. If they say yes, I will acknowledge this and then inform them I am complying with their instructions and doing so under protest. I will also fill out non-complying tags and place them on each locomotive stating the fact I was ordered to violate. In this manner I am relieved of any discipline or fines should the Feds show up and discover I am operating an out of date locomotive. Thus far in my career though, this has never happened.
In my days at the IHB, I operated some locomotives that were originally built in the 1940’s. While they had been rebuilt over the years, they were still fifty something years old and had seen better days. One evening I was working a job that went on duty at the Lakefront Yard in Indiana Harbor. I had to daily my engine, an NW2 built in 1947. One of the sander hoses appeared to be plugged so I got the air hose wrench and began whacking the sander hose and piping above it. When I hit the piping above the hose the first time I corrected the problem, well sort of. The entire pipe broke completely away from the bottom of the sandbox and sand began to pout freely out and onto the rail and ground below. I did have sand coming out but it was just pouring out uncontrolled and quickly emptying the sandbox. This is bad, very bad.
Examination of the piping that had broken of showed significant corrosion and deterioration. I didn’t cause the damage, I just competed the failure process. I guess I was sort of exonerated with this discovery.
So I went in and called the Gibson Roundhouse telling the Foreman what had happened. He laughed and told of various locomotives with the very same problem. He stated these old warhorses really needed to be replaced as they were fighting a losing battle in trying to keep them up to required standards. I was told this type of repair could not be made in the field and that it needed to come straight to the roundhouse for repairs. He gave me authorization to operate it lite engine from the Lakefront to the Roundhouse just a few miles away. He faxed over a non-complying form to place on the locomotive to allow me to operate it as such.
I contacted the Trainmaster at the West End Yard at Gibson telling him of our plight and how we would have to run this unit lite to the roundhouse and get another engine. He agreed and that was that, or so I thought. The Conductor called the yardmaster at Michigan Avenue Yard to inform him but he had other plans. He decided that since we are heading to the roundhouse, we would stop at the Avenue and pick up some bad ordered cars to take over the Gibson Rip Track, which was right next to the roundhouse.
"No can do" was my response when I was told. I called the yardmaster back and explained to him that we are not authorized to move any cars with this engine being that it is non-complying and moving under its own power to the house for repairs. A little debate ensued and he accused me of playing "screw the pooch." I told him this would be a violation if we were to use this engine for anything other than transit to the roundhouse and that the Trainmaster had already been informed and concurred. The yardmaster was not too pleased but was outgunned. He begrudgingly agreed and we moved lite engine to the roundhouse.
In more than one case over the years I have encountered officials who believe a daily inspection consists of simply signing the cards and filling out the paperwork. They also do not realize the importance or requirements of the daily inspection. I try to explain to them the importance of these inspections and how they are more than merely signing a few forms.
The daily inspection serves several purposes. One is to assure all of the required components are working and in good order. Another is to positively ascertain all safety appliances are in place. Other safety issues are also being investigated. Grease or oil on the catwalks, steps or handrails could result in a serious personal injury as could a build up of snow or ice. Grease or oil leaking onto the trucks, wheels and brake shoes can diminish the retarding effort of the locomotive brakes. Locomotives with excessive piston travel (the pistons control the movement of the brake rigging that operates the locomotive brakes) or badly worn brake shoes will have greatly diminished braking effort. Other problems with the locomotive may also be discovered.
Many problems such as safety defects can render the locomotive unsafe to use if not repaired. To me and many others, the entire concept of the daily inspection is vital and extremely important. We find many of these problems and get them corrected or the offending locomotive is removed from service and sent to the roundhouse for repairs. Such action can keep personal injuries from occurring and also accidents from happening.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2003 by JD Santucci
interesting as usual. the 'run it anyway' guys are such losers!
Attention all BVE Simulator players:
The R40/40M Trainsets will be released sometime tonight on my NYC BVE Authority website. So Please Check back often for the latest updates, I will most likely post the update back on SubTalk, sometime tonight.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I had the opportunity yesterday to see a new MTH Catalog. This one is called RailKing Ready-To-Run Sets 2003. This catalog is 50 pgs, and seems to be the same format as last years Toy Fair catalog, which announced 2 new MTA subway sets.
There are no new MTA sets in this new catalog, in fact there is nothing NY related except the NYFD Rescue 2 train, which I believe had been announced in an earlier book.
I am guessing that this book must take the place of the Toy Fair catalog since it was released about the same time. I'm sort of disappointed since I thought there might be another new subway set on the horizon.
"... I'm sort of disappointed since I thought there might be another new subway set on the horizon ..."
There is/are ... guess they just haven't got around to putting it in the catalog yet :-(
They suppose to have the R-36WF addon sets coming out. But when I don't know. I need to sets to go with the sixteen cars I already have. I went to Nassua Hobbies out here on the Island and asked when but Charlie couldn't give me a definitive answer. I'll call back in few months for info.
D.
When the final Redbird finally screeches to a halt in the coming weeks, the IND/BMT "Brightliners" will then become the oldest operating revenue cars on the system. It is more than probable that with the Redbirds gone, these cars will be the center of attention from the juice fans (yours truly included!).......they will also be the last cars in service with the arch roof pioneered by the R-15 in 1950. So, I have the feeling that now these cars will be moving into the subway spotlight, and will be keeping the buffs busy taking pics and videos for some time to come!
Yeah they would be called "The Silverbirds" LOL! Not funny.
D.
Not quite. The next set of cars to be scrapped are the R38's on the A and C. Then the slant R40's. The R32's will probably get scrapped after those cars are history. Unlike the R38/40/42 the R32's entire frame is made of stainless steel and is not suffering the kinds of severe body rust it's younger cousins are.
Expect the R38's to be scrapped in 2006-07.
Thanks for your info...I guess it all boils down to the fact that all the remaining 1960s vintage cars are living on borrowed time.....CC
Yup, and if the MTA has it's way so are all the 1970's vintage cars (including my beloved R46).
No, the BMT Brightliners are not on borrowed time. All the other 60 footers are slated to be retired before they are (except for the R143s, of course). And recently we've been told that, as of this time, even the R44s will be retired before the Brightliners. And with the budget constraints that are sure to hound the MTA in years to come, well, they might just outlive most or all of us who had the privilege to ride them when they were new. They may well set the record for rolling stock longevity. Of course, they were the only large NYCT fleet "Built by the --Budd-- Company".
BRIGHTLINERS OUTLIVING THE R44S???? THANKS, MY FRIEND, YOU MADE MY MILLENIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MAN, THIS IS THE BEST NEWS I'VE HAD IN A LONG TIME!!!!!!!
R38s, R40slants, R40Ms and R42s too!
The R32 is such a rugged car that if they had the wherewithal to extend their lives to 75 years they probably could do so.
wayne
I'd keep them for as long as their structures can resist the slow effects of metal fatigue.
The source of this info was a post by Train Dude. (I'm not at all qualified to have made that statement on my own.) His post made my day, too. Now about those R46s.....
What of the word that the R-44 ought to be next? They seem to me the most unpopular B-division cars in service, although the roofs on the R-38 suggest that they might need to go first.
What are your thoughts on the order in which cars ought to be retired?
Here,s what i think should be the scraping order(from first to last)
1.R38
2.R40m
3.R40
4.R42
5.R44
6.R46
7.R62
8.R68
there that how i see the scraping order.
til next time
My scrapping order:
1. R-38
2. R-40m
3. R-42
What I am hearing is the scrapping order: R38, R40 slants will go first. Whatever goes next is anyone's question. I doubt that R46s will go before the 32s go, though.
....and I seriously doubt that the R-62s and 68s will go before the 32s. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The R32s outlasting the R62 and R68s? I can't see that happening.
I agree totally.
If The R44 were to go what would replace the SI Cars?
I do not think those R44s are getting replaced...right now. Only the ones that are on the A.
#390 SIRR
The R44's are not on any official scrapping list. The numbers of R160's, assuming all option orders are exercized, will not be sufficient to replace any 75' car once all the 60' cars of the 60's (R32/38/40/42) are gone.
That's so far into the future, you might as well ask what energy source will replace the sun.
I have heard mentioned by several "Higher Ups"that the 44's are haveing more body problems than any other car class.It would not shock me to see the 44's and 38's be retired and the R 160 fleet used only on the A line.This would coincide with the Rehab of Pitkin and 207 st maintenance shops.On a side note anyone notice some 38's have had their roofs painted and patched up recently.
I thought I saw it the other day, of course, with silver paint.
Such a scheme might even send all of the R-32 cars to one place: Jamaica Yard.
Why would the R44 have such body problems? They cant be worse than the R38 & 40. The R44 is supposed to have a stainless steel body, like the R46.
The R-44 does indeed have a stainless steel body. However, there is an important difference from the R-46. The "belly band" (where the blue stripe used to be) is made of carbon steel, not stainless steel. That's where water can infiltrate the carbody and get at the structural members (which, as far as I am aware, are NOT made of stainless steel).
David
The R44's problems can be fixed if they were properly overhauled and the troublesome mechanical elemens removed. I've always thought they should have been made compatible with the R46. Like the R32, the R44 has a stainless steel frame (despite the carbon steel "band") and has a lot of life left in them.
Who did the R44 GOH? MK? Coney Island?
5202-5281,5286-5318,5320-5341 came from MK. 5342-5401,5403-5479 and ALL R44 SI Cars were overhauled at both Coney Island and 207th Street shops. (5282-5, 5319 were overhauled at MK. 5282 was destroyed in an derailment at 135th Streetin July 1997 and cut up into scrap metal right there. 5283-5 have been OOS since. 5319 was set fire by vandals and since scrapped. I don't know the status of 5402, rebuilt in house.)
i was around when the R-32s were delivered, and unlike most of the cars that were replacing the original fleets. I liked them from Day One.
And now they seem destined to be the longest-lastest of the second fleet! All credit goes to Budd--too bad their cars outlasted the company.
I recall going to Grand Central with my mother in 1964 to see a train of new R 32s.......you could see the family resemblence to the R-11s! I used to like the dark blue doors they once sported...gave them a touch of flash and color. I think that when they rebuilt the front ends minus the old roll sign boxes, it did not improve the looks of the car at all, not to mention, that tiny route designator is hard to see, a far cry from the big roll signs in the front years ago.But still, they are classics, and I still love 'em nearly 40 years later!
They are nice looking trains. I just wished Morrison-Knudesen didn't replace the front end with that fugly flipdot sign that no one can see.
Because the car body shells are 100% stainless steel R32s could probably run forever if it weren't for the eventual age and obsolesence of the propulsion and door systems. Would be a good if a few R32 trains could stay around as long as possible. They're not only a great looking car, they have lived through the worst and best days in New York's subway history - the graffiti epidemic in the 70s, the rebuilding and renewal of the car fleets in the 80s, the good times of the 90s, and the horrors of 9/11/01.
Uh, the slants are the next Redbirds, as far as people passionately upset at their demise. Never heard of anyone loving the R38 over the R32, so I doubt anyone will raise that much of a fuss when the R38s go. But Wayne and all sorts of others will hate to see the R40s leave. And then, after the R38s, R40S and M, and R42s go, the R32s will be the cars we don't want to see gone.
The R38....worst car ever!
Worse than the R-16?
God yes...do you even have to ask?
I still have a special place in my heart for R-38s #4140-4149 because of their test air-conditioning units, even if GOH obilterated the main differnces between those and the rest of the fleet. Getting on one during the summer was a welcome surprise, and if you were on one, looking at the reaction of people boarding the car after that was interesting in and of itself.
Plus, unlike the rebuilts, St. Louis Car somehow managed the horribly difficult trick of putting actual route and destination rollsigns in the bulkheads between frame and the AC units, instead of those #@$&*@#%$#)&* flipdot signs.
I remember when the 32s were new, and also when the 38s began to arrive. The 38s looked real good back then, but I always liked the 32s better.
Elias
Did the MTA stop planning the Second Ave Subway or are they still working on it?
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/
(Accessible from the MTA's site at "Inside the MTA")
I have seen this page. They speak of a transfer to the #7 at 42nd Street. Does this mean they plan to build a new station on the #7 line?
That could be a reference to the transfer from the 42nd Street station on the 6th Avenue IND to the 5th Avenue station on the 7.
(Does this mean they plan to build a new station on the #7 line? )
I don't believe so. The east end of the GCT #7 station is at 3rd Ave, so it's almost certainly just a passageway.
They are still working on it, for sure ;)
Yes, we (the design team, see previous threads) are still working on the design. What is up in the air is if the capital budget for actual construction will be approved.
As for connections (another replyer), the 7th Ave. line will connect at 63rd where the crossovers were built.
Other transfer stations are still up in the air, except for a definite transfer at 125th.
Like the Brightliners, The Slant R40s will be sure to be getting attention in the coming months. Thier menancing, pug-ugly appearance is destined to become even more appealing to buffs with the Redbirds passed into history. Perhaps, even now, there is little doubt as to the Slants being the most unusual-looking cars on the system. Sadly, their interiors suffered the same bland overhaul as the Brightliners...the cool aquamarine interiors and straphangers are no more, but at least the Slants themselves have survived.....for now....
They are different, but I don't think they are "ugly." Looking at them from a 1960's prespective, I see them as very futuristic looking. Especially how they looked as the ywere delivered, with out the extra bolted on accesories they sport now.
But look at the darker side of the abuse they had with the vandals in past. The R32's got a beating, but not as bad as the "slants". The blue interiors were replaced with the same interiors like the rest of the fleet in the 70's except the R40M/R42 with the orange door, beige interior, and black seating before the GOH in 1987.
The Slants suffered horribly at the hands of the Queens graffitti crews in the 70s. Unit after unit was plastered end to end with giant murals, one more lurid and outrageous than the next. Some of the worst were #4328-9(!), #4318-9(!) 4208-9(!!), #4332-3(!!!), #4296-7(!!), 4418-9(!!!), and the penultimate canvas, #4412-3(!!!!!). Few subway cars were hit as bad as that unit; they even painted over the end route signs. Back then they would lay up (as trains do now) on the express tracks between Union and 169th Street, but they were never watched by police or security.
wayne
Who says they're ugly? How can a subway car be ugly (I mean real subway cars, that doesn't include the R14x pieces-of-crap they're rolling out now)? Besides, I have always loved the R40's, since they were the only cars I could see out of when I was 7. I grew fast, but unfortunately my love of trains grew faster. Funny thing, though-I first rode one on the (B) (loads of fun, it was late, so it ran express down CPW at top speed) so I used to call the slants "B-shaped" trains before I learned that they were called R40s. I hated R46s, though, I synonymized them with the crowded (A) and the slow montague-(R)athole train. I used to call those "ugly fat fancy hippos".
When new, the R40 slants were quite attractive:
What's that thing on top of the railfan window? The R40 Slants don't have 'em now...
The red/green "express/local" marker lights, the last car type with them. They were removed during their GOH.
Too bad. They wouldn't been useless today.
Like double letters, their intended use would be confusing today. Some lines are express in some places, local in others. The circle Q is a local in Brooklyn, express in Manhattan. The N is the reverse. Same with the #2, E, etc.
Why would they be useless? When the train goes from local to express (e.g. an E train going from 8th Ave to Queens Blvd) or vice versa, just switch the designation light from "local" to "express".
Here's one with the lights functioning:
Thanks. What a coincidink! After seeing that 'DeKalb' tiling, I wonder about the progress of the project. Is all the tiling installed yet?
No new wall tiles yet. Cinder block wall has been up in the north end of the station, where one could see a W train pass on the bypass track. Also, on the North end, there are some "RCAs" at the Manhattan bound platform where they are installing new stairs and possibly elevators.
Elevators should be installed on the South end of the station (the 24 hour booth), this station is expected to be ADA compliant in late 2004, early 2005.
I have seen evidence of prep for new white tile below a restored original frieze, this on the southbound side N/R (tunnel) trackside wall. Nothing yet regarding putting new tile and frieze (which I assume that they'll do) on the new cinderblock walls. It's not that difficult a pattern to duplicate; they've gotten good at this art lately.
wayne
Nice pic. Wonder what line it was on. (being on the outer wall at Dekalb back then would have had to be the D or if non-rush hour, the B or N)
I'd say "D", and I'd also say it was before 1977. They fitted the hardware on the front end around 1971, and since the rollsign's blank (they had a blank panel following "S", with "E" and "F" being the only other letters aboard), I'd say it predated the 1977 switch to the newer style small bullet in a square window that they used after they were transferred to the "A" line.
wayne
They were pretty sharp when they were new, and must've looked like UFO's compared to the other trains that were running at the time.
By the way, I can't remember for the life of me if they still had the old little IND H&M's on the wall at WTC until they redid the walls fairly recently in the late 90's I think. I can't picture the walls there at all there from just before the renovation.
Chambers had the H&M on the walls until the rehabilitation in the 90's, but the tiles were painted over with black paint, so all you saw was 3 black sqaures. In places where the paint had worn away H&M was visible.
To me, the BMT standards were about as ugly as a subway car can be when I first saw them as a 10 1/2-year-old in 1967. I didn't think too much of the slants when I first saw them, and I remember when they were new. Since they ran on the E (and F) then, I refused to set foot in them. We did ride on an F train of slants once for one stop, from 34th to 42nd, because my sister liked them.
Since they took the great R-32's off of my Sea Beach, look for them to start screwing around with the Slant 40's as well. I wonder now just what trains are running on the Sea Beach line? Have they added any new cars to the route or just screwing it some more?
The N sea Beach line has a mixture of mostly slant R40's, and few R40M's, and a couple of R68A's. No more R32's at CI/Stillwell yard, Train Dude has those in Jamaica yard (as well as other R32's at Pitkin Yard). On weekends, almost all of them R40 slants in Brooklyn, some have been used on the W line also on weekends.
>>>Train Dude has those in Jamaica yard <<<
Train Dude is in Concourse yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
Let me rephrase what I said about the slants when they were new. I was neutral. Didn't like or dislike them. Because of my intense dislike for the E, I didn't ride on any slants until they were on the A, except for that one-stop ride along 6th Ave.
I was in high school in the 80's when I first noticed the slants. I wasn't even a railfan yet, but I remember being in one once with some friends on the way home from school, and we used to call them the "space-aged" trains because of the skinny doors between cars.
The 100 air-conditioned Slant-40s were some of the most beautiful things to enter a station during the summer months when they first went into service. Bonus points too if they were positioned as the front car on an F rush hour express run on the Culver line so you could railfan window it in comfort (in contrast, the 200 non-ACed Slants were like a boiler room during the summer, and the soot stains that accumulated on the ceilings by the early 1970s thanks to the modified axleflow fan design made things even feel more uncomfortable than they actually were).
The Slant R-40s are so ugly that people love them. I like them because of their unusual appearance.
#3 West End Jeff
you hit the nail right on the head...the Slants are so ugly you gotta love 'em!!
That is so true. They're so ugly that you've got to love them. The T/A should preserve a train of Slant R-40s (pantograph gates and extension bars incl.) just to show that they were a flop when it came to overall design. They were so bad that railfans loved them. They should restore those cars to their original appearance so that anyone who NEVER saw a Slant R-40 will enjoy seeing it. There is no other car like the Slant R-40s.
#3 West End Jeff
I still think before their final day comes, the MTA should split one pair of Slants, couple them each with an R-40M, and then put six other R-40M cars in-between to create a 10-car train with the slanted ends only at the T/Os position.
If the Slants had arrived a few years later, when the MTA had gone to A-B-B-A pairings and full-width cabs, it would have been possible to only put the slanted ends on the cars at the T/O and C/R positions, which would have meant all that ugly hardware that had to go on the front of the cars never would have been necessary.
I wonder what Wayne has to say about this.:)
That is a good idea. Then at least one can get an idea upon how the Slant R-40s mighjt have worked without all of the extra hardware.
#3 West End Jeff
Avid Reader, someone who posts here on occasion, proposed this some time ago. It is a good idea. But, I don't think we'll ever see it happen.
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess seeing trains with pantographs every day, I must admit that the R40s look kind of odd without them (looking at the photos on the site).
I myself am a big fan of both the R40 and R40M. Yeah the R40 may look a little phunky but I like their uniqueness. They also may look kinda shot but you know what-they're 1 of the fastest cars in the system-ride 1 through the 60 St Tunnel-they will fly like an eagle.
Funny thing is that I believe my 1st R40 Slant Ride was also on the B-Car 4192 from CC to 7 Ave to catch the E which had R46s in their ORIGINAL numbers. I believe this was back in the early 1990s.
Here's a pic I took of an R40 Slant 4270 leaving QBP:
R40M I have to say I liked them when they started showing up on the N only last year. I remember my 1st ride on 1: 4450 and I took it only 1 stop from 59 St to QBP and boy did this car fly through the 60 St Tunnel-felt like we were doing mock 6. Once I got off that car, I had to take a pic of it at QBP:
Enjoy!!!
R40 and R40Ms rule!!!
#4489 W West End Local
#4226 N Sea Beach Local
The picture ain't appearing
NEVER MIND - I see you fixed it
I myself am a big fan of both the R40 and R40M. Yeah the R40 may look a little phunky but I like their uniqueness. They also may look kinda shot but you know what-they're 1 of the fastest cars in the system-ride 1 through the 60 St Tunnel-they will fly like an eagle.
Funny thing is that I believe my 1st R40 Slant Ride was also on the B-Car 4192 from CC to 7 Ave to catch the E which had R46s in their ORIGINAL numbers. I believe this was back in the early 1990s.
Here's a pic I took of an R40 Slant 4270 leaving QBP:
R40 4270
R40M I have to say I liked them when they started showing up on the N only last year. I remember my 1st ride on 1: 4450 and I took it only 1 stop from 59 St to QBP and boy did this car fly through the 60 St Tunnel-felt like we were doing mock 6. Once I got off that car, I had to take a pic of it at QBP:
R40M 4450
Enjoy!!!
R40 and R40Ms rule!!!
#4489 W West End Local
#4226 N Sea Beach Local
That's my lame joke for today.
I don't know where this post originated from but the Orange is my favorite fruit and one of my two favorite colors. To me it is the most delicious fruit of them all. What this has to do with my Sea Beach or Kool-D's screwed up Q train I haven't a clue, but I thought I would heave in with a pearl or two of my own.
Maybe someone was sniffing Orange Magic.
I would like to know when each subway car model of the R-series was overhauled. (only to those models where applicable.. i.e. the R142(A)/R143's didn't have any)
Also, if a model goes through total "renovation", where do they perform it? What would be the budget? How long does it take to overhaul an entire fleet? Any other questions that I haven't thought about?
The R-46 was overhauled by Morrison-Knudsen,during the 1980's, if I recall correctly. While the company did a good job, financially, it didn't work out for them, and they did not continue in that business. The CEO lost his job in large part to their railcar efforts.
You can see M-K builder's plates inside the R46.
Does Morrison-Knudsen have a website? I also know that this company did rebuilds of some of NJT's GP40 series locomotives.
Why don't you look it up on a search engine or the Yahoo directory?
dont you mean the 90's?
Yes, thanks for that correction.
R33 WF, GOH in 1984-85
R33 ML, GOH in 1988-90 (the #2 line first, then the #5 line)
R32 paint job in '87; GOH in 1988-89
R38 GOH in 1989-90
R40 GOH in 1990
R42 GOH in 1989-1990
R44/46 GOH in 1991-92
At the end of each car interior (in front of cab), is the year and company that performed the GOH as well as the original manufactuer.
R10 GOH 1984-1985(IIRC)
R30 GOH 1985
R26/R28 1986-1987
R29 1985-1986
There were pre-GOH r32's on the N in December of 1989. I caught #3827 going home from school a few days before christmas. After the winter break, there were no more. Everything seems to come back from the GOH uglier.
There were at least 120 of them still going around in the blue paint in September of 1989. I remember front-windowing #3534 and #3850 and probably a few others. One morning I got two stops out of #3531 before it dropped dead at 57th Street. Needless to say, that one was never seen in the blue again.
What do you figure the chances of one being restored to its original appearance, in ten years or so?
I hope ALL of them, these babies need more TLC when it comes to air-conditioning, but they look great.
However, it will be a forgone conclusion in 2006, when they will be replaced by the cheaper looking R160's. So I'm betting the following:
1 to Transit Museum
2 to Shore line
2 to Seashore, NJ
10 or so converted to either work cars (C division) or training cars.
I hope ALL of them, these babies need more TLC when it comes to air-conditioning, but they look great.
However, it will be a forgone conclusion in 2006, when they will be replaced by the cheaper looking R160's. So I'm betting the following:
1 to Transit Museum
2 to Shore line
2 to Seashore, NJ
10 or so converted to either work cars (C division) or training cars.
about 100 cars on sale at e-bay too!!!
The M-K overhauls were done in Hornell NY, near Buffalo. They removed the trucks and most underbody equipment and shipped that separately. In this way they could put the car bodies on flatbed trailers without having any overhead clearance problems. They did, however, have to run wide load warning pickups both before and after the tractor trailers. I used to see them quite often in the late 80's and early 90's zipping across the Whitestone bridge and up I-95 to and from I-287. Assuming one round trip per working day (8 hours each way with separate crews), they could do about 250 cars per year.
"The M-K overhauls were done in Hornell NY, near Buffalo"
Hornell, NY is not near Buffalo. I drove to the Buffalo/Niagra area from Hornell, one night, for dinner. It's over 140 miles. Hornell is closer to Rochester but a hefty drive from either.
They also went by train over Conrail's ex-Erie mainline. I saw a freight at Suffern, NY, sometime in the late 1980's where the first 5 cars were flatcars carrying r32's and r42's. I may have it on video, but then again I may not....
Lest we get overwhelmed with lots of mis-information & wild guesses, here are the facts:
R-26 1985-87 By MK $187,876 per car
R-28 1985-87 By MK $172,000 per car
R-29 1985-87 by MK $306,000 per car
R-30 1985-86 by NYCT $317,000 per car
R-32 1988-90 by Buffalo Transit (10 cars) $576,000 per car
R-32 1988-90 by MK (584 cars) $476,000 per car
R-33 1986-91 by NYCT $381,000 per car
R-33S 1985 by NYCT $195,600 per car
R-36 1982-85 By MK, NAB & NYCT $163,000 for MK & NAB, $164,000 for NYCT
R-38 1987-88 by Buffalo transit $400,000 per car
R-40 & R-40M 1987-89 by Sumitomo $399,000 per car
R-42 1988-89 by MK $428,000 per car or NYCT $688,000 per car.
R-44 1991-92 by MK $584,000 per car & NYCT $612,000 per car.
R-44SIR 1991-92 by NYCT $612,000 per car
R-46 1990-91 by MK $464,000 per car.
A majority of GOH cars had their work done with Morrison-Knudsen. Others were done by General Electric, Sumitomo, The Coney Island and 207 Street Shops. I think NY Rail had some as well, I can't remember that much.
The only GOH cars that turned out poorly were the Coney Island GOH R42's. Most successful was the ML R33's at 207 Street.
" Way to go, Redbirds".
As most of us die-hard subway buffs are dreading the day when the last Redbird squeals to a halt, somehow or other we have to accept the new cars coming in. Though they will never fascinate me as the Redbirds, had, I have coined a few monikers for the R142s to make them more "lovable" (?!?!) Taking my cue from old BMT names like the "GREEN HORNET", "ZEPHYR", etc, these are the handles I came up with for the new kids on the rails... ""RED EYE ROCKETS" (for the red route indicator on the front), and "SILVER CYCLOPS" (again, for the red route indicator in front glaring like a red eye)......if anything else, we subway buffs do have an imagination!
I dunno...the Bombers?
how about dropping the "-ers" from that.
I call them "Cylons"....they're evil, metal and have one big red eye.
Great name! And fitting!!
One big red eye? Hah, no way, my friend. When it comes to waiting at Grand Central, I'll have no clue if that train coming is a 4 or 5. :)
you got me there, friend! You have NO IDEA if the train is a 4 or a 5 until the train is right on top of you...(unless you have binoculars!) Give me old roller signs anyday! CC
With R-62 rollsigns you still don't know. The glare from the headlights makes it impossible to read the number until the train is really close.
I also find it interesting how people feel they'll get some place faster just by knowing which train is coming 2.5 seconds earlier.
I guess it's just like pressing an elevator button over and over again.
you are right.....you have NO WAY of knowing if the train is a 4 or a 5 until it is right on top of you....(unless you have binoculars!!) Give me the old roller signs any day! CC
It was the same when Redbirds ran on both the 4 and 5. You didn't know which was which until the train was in the station.
CyCLOPS have one eye. If they have two eyes, they're Bicyclops.
(I can't HELP it. I'm a born LEEVERPOOLER!)
:-) Andrew
LOL where's Apollo and Starbuck? :)
Why don't you like the new toys? You aren't supposed to like the 1988 Honda when you've got a 2003 suburban in the driveway...
Even if you think the 1988 Honda is a better vehicle?
'New' and 'better' are not synonymous.
>>I call them "Cylons"...they're evil, metal and have one big red eye.<<
I suppose that means that the Redbirds (and soon, the R-40s) are the "rag-tag fugitive fleet on a lonley quest".
Now, if only that red route number bounced back and forth from side to side...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
>>I call them "Cylons"...they're evil, metal and have one big red eye.<<
I suppose that means that the Redbirds (and soon, the R-40s) are the "rag-tag fugitive fleet on a lonley quest".
Now, if only that red route number bounced back and forth from side to side...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
How about the HALs (from 2001: A Space Odyssey)?
Or this one: 1 Filthy Peukes!
#1741 6 Lexington Ave Local
When it began to register that maybe the R-142s weren't going to be all hoped for in 2000, the boys and girls in the pits sometimes referred to the first test train as "La Vida Loca." Listen to the Ricky Martin tune about a troublesome, imaginary gadfly and that makes a little sense.
In more recent times there have been several names, many non-complimentary, but my personal favorite is "Gizmo." Seems fitting.
If he's still around, y'oughta let Mr. On The Juice have the honor of nicknaming them. He has to live with they and their potential nonsense every day.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What about this nickname: Scrap-a-junks and Scrap-a-suckies!
#9090 4 Lexington Ave Express
I couldnt agree with you more on that 1 LOL
I can hear the announcement now: This is a Landfill bound piece of junk train-The next stop will be The big scrap heap in the sky!!!
Stand clear of the broken doors please!!!
And stick an R46 6022's chimes in the mix-sounding like the batteries are going dead. DREE-DRUNG!!! LMAO!
Pardon for the delay but we will be shred shortly!
#9769 7 Flushing Local
I beg to differ. The Redbirds shouldn't be referred to as 'junk.' They have served the system reliably and are not being credited for their services. The MTA should be equally ashamed for using the Redbirds in this grotesque manner... Reefs!!!!!!! Ugh! When Salaam dies, (sorry man) he'll be turning in his grave! :(
What else should they use them for? The only other option is to abate the asbestos and recycle the steel. At least by reefing the Redbirds remain intact and instead of humans they can be used by other species for generations to come.
It's the sentiment, Pig. I know the logic but sentiment always gets in the way...
R U NEW?
YEP! NEW AS THEY COME!! ONLY BEEN HERE 24 HOURS AND LOVE IT!!!!!!!
O Ok, Welcome !
I like the "RED EYE ROCKETS!" as the moniker for the R-142s. At least it has the word "Red" in the name as in the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
Well I vote for TechBird,it was called the Technology train and its replacing the redbirds so techbird.
We could adopt the name of the R-62s and R62As; the silverbirds. It is all stainless steel. :-) -Nick
How about Are-One-Fortitude: resolute endurance, at least that may have been what the TA had in mind when they ordered them.
Ha! A good one Mr. T! one of your rare gems...
Wayne Mr Slant has the best nickname "Vultures"
Simon
Swindon UK
Aye, Vultures I calls them, they come to pick the dead bones of the Redbirds.
I calls the R143 the King Vultures.
+++++
wayne
How about 'Silverbirds'? Since they replaced the Redbirds, after all.
I think that honour, if it has been bestowed, belongs to the R62A.
wayne
Streakers.
Due to the fading red streak along the side.
Salaam and (1) South Ferry (9) call them Armadillos.
I LIKE that nickname.
In the beginning, the R142, I called them "Breadboxes" because that's what they resembled at first. All square. But seeing the names posted here, I narrow it to these two:
"Silver Hawks" or "Silver Owls", at least for the R142A. R142's will still be "Breadboxes".
a while back you had several posts about which are the best stations to go railfanning,I would have to say 2 stations-The Mineola Station on the LIRR,but actually not on the station itself.On the eastbound end,there is a pedestrian grade crossing(I think the only one on the whole railroad)you are thisclose to the action(especially during rush hour)and finally the Hunterspoint station where you can see trains from 4 different systems (NYCTA,NJT,Amtrak,LIRR).
There is also a pedestrian-only grade crossing (and no road crossings!) at the Westwood station on the West Hempstead branch. That one and the one at Mineola are the only two I can think of in electrified territory on the LIRR.
I recall one at the Glen Head station which was just a bell and a pathetic little red light but that's before the high level platforms went in.
CG
^^^"the Hunterspoint station where you can see trains from 4 different systems (NYCTA,NJT,Amtrak,LIRR)."^^^
and now for a few weeks, the Circus Train is in the vicinity of
Hunterspoint Avenue. My Mrs. has eyeballed it off the #7, but only
while they perform at MSG. Then it's gone. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
I don't believe it, this morning they did it again. A train got stuck somewhere and all downtown #6 trains were running express 125 St-BB. Functionally speaking, north of 42 St, the Lexington Av line is not a four-track line, rather it is two separate two-track lines. There are hardly any switches anywhere, and definately none sufficient to reroute trains when stuff like this happens. All the trains behind any train that is screwed up for whatever reason, would be stuck. They need to have more switches so trains could at least switch to the other track, so they don't get stuck and the passengers don't have to get PO'd. There should be, at the very least, two facing switches at each end of 86 St and the north end of 59 St, and maybe even a switch between levels somewhere in between, if possible. This is ridiculous...Does anybody agree or am I nuts?
I agree. Wite MTA and ask them to put a new line item in the next Capital Plan.
I agree. Write MTA and ask them to put a new line item in the next Capital Plan.
Since the local is on the upper level and the express on the lower level between 103rd and 42nd, those switches would be really expensive to put in. It's not just switches, it's also major construction.
Also, the reason for the 2 levels in the first place is that Lex Ave isn't wide enough for 4 tracks on 1 level. That same narrowness might preclude the contruction you'd like to see.
Blame it all on the subway being under Lexington Ave in the first place. Third Ave is much wider, as is Park (though of course Park has the railroad).
All the switches added in the world wouldn't matter if a train should lay down during rush hour. Lexington Ave as it stands is beyond capacity.
Even if you did put in crossovers, the headways are 5000% to dense to support single track operation of any kind, even for a few thousand feet.
The thing that would really help you with a train laying down would be Local <-> Express X-overs
There are switches north of 42nd Street. The problem is that during the rush hour, trains are so close that by the time the tower finds out that a train has laid down, the next train is usually on that switch. This is what happened last night, and in such cases all trains have to continue down the Express (or Local if it is an express laying down) to BB. You'll even experience this with more switches.
Remember we in the tower rely on the crew telling us that there's a problem. If a train is in the station for a minute during rush hour, its nomal. During off peak hours on the other hand, this isn't and the tower can tell something's wrong. And many times the crew does not say anything. Happened last night with a #6 train that had a door problem, and a rerouted #4 had already taken the switch. No access to express track meant everything was screwed.
I was just curious...how exactly are cars numbered? How is it that the oldest cars in the system (R36) have the highest numbers(9xxx), with the newest (R14x) filling up the 8000s, and the relatively new R62's all numbers in the 1000s? Were there older cars whose numbers were reused? And will they ever get up to 10000?
was just curious...how exactly are cars numbered? How is it that the oldest cars in the system (R36) have the highest numbers(9xxx), with the newest (R14x) filling up the 8000s, and the relatively new R62's all numbers in the 1000s? Were there older cars whose numbers were reused? And will they ever get up to 10000?
All passenger subway cars are numbered between 1000 and 9999.
The original fleet started with a low number (e.g., 100 on the IND) and numbered up from there. The BMT was the first to begin skipping blocks of numbers to keep cars in a particular series--i.e., BMT Standards were 2000s, Standard trailers 4000s, D-Types 6000s etc.
The IRT kept their numbers more compact, with new series starting just above the highest number of the previous series, and blocks of trailers interspersed with blocks of motor cars.
Until they were retired, there could be (for example), an IRT (Manhattan el) 1000, a BMT 1000 and an IND 1000, all at the same time.
When the TA began replacing the original fleet, they initially used numbers that were never taken--the R27s started with 8020, to avoid the R-11s (8010-8019) which in turn avoided the numbers of the old BMT Bluebirds (8000-8005).
Without researching it too much, I think the first NYCTA cars to reuse numbers of scrapped cars were the R-32s, which began numbering with 3350, same as the original IRT Hi-V subway cars that were scrapped about a decade earlier.
Thanks for the info.
How did the ML R-36's end up squished in the middle of the WF R-36's?
I remember years ago in the 80s, standing on the platform at Park place and looking up into the cieling, and seeing evidence of a long-ago removed stairway that connected with the platform. I also recall, where you would transfer between the IND 8Th Ave and the IRT 7Th ave at Chambers/Park, and in the passageway, there was a long since abandoned sealed off area, where there was an old shuttered token booth and a lot of maintainence equipment. Did the removed stairway connect with this old fare control area? It has since been totally obliterated after the station was remodeled. Anyone familiar with this former fare control area and missing stairway??
It seems that there is a closed stairway in the area you describe, and an old escalator pit at platform level. There may also be an old booth. Very interesting.
" there is a closed stairway in the area you describe, and an old escalator pit at platform level. There may also be an old booth.
It leads to the 76th Street Station, I'm Sure!
: )-
“It seems that there is a closed stairway in the area you describe, and an old escalator pit at platform level. There may also be an old booth.”
The answer comes from David Rogoff, in his article:
Abandoned and Unused Tracks and Tunnels of the IRT – Part Two.
New York Division E.R.A. Bulletin June 1964 (vol.7 #3). Part One was in the April 1964 Bulletin.
His note about this area of Park Place station is on page 7 under: Addenda 2nd Series (Abandoned Stations and Parts), and is as follows:
#20 Park Place – Manhattan – North Mezzanine: Note T
“Remains of an old Mezzanine and escalator pit used to provide access to 9th Ave. El.
Parts of this old structure can still be seen at present west mezzanine which is used to connect station to IND Chambers St. Station.”
thanks
It's pretty much done if you look at it, with new tiling and lighting already in place. I have just one question. If you're looking at the wall tiling at the TS-bound track, you can see two thin metal rectangles. I have no idea what they are and red lines are around it, indicating a lack of clearance for passing trains. What are these things?
After the Standards were retired in 1969, did any IND R1/9s run on the Culver Shuttle? I remember the Standards well on the Culver shuttle, but am vague on the Rs......
Maybe this would answer that:
Larry, what a shot! Is it one of yours?
That one's right from this site.
I'll have mine posted soon.
(Mine were taken with a 126 Instamatic)
Did the portion between Ditmas and 9th Ave ever have a third track?
Sure did ... it continued from 18th Avenue to the lower level of 9th Ave.
--Mark
yeah, I had one of those too at around the same time....HEY! That better not be MY camera }:(
I got mine at Korvettes, uses ®Magicubes :-)
Ahh...Magicubes...see my recent post at 'instamatics...'
I have a couple of them *now*... kinda useless without the film, and too light to make good paperweights :(
BTW, does anyone know of a lab in New York that will still *develop* 126 (specifically, C-22 process)?
I have come across a few places that will process 126 film, but only C-41 or E-6
Here's a link to a place that sells 126 film:
http://www.frugalphotographer.com/cat04.htm
Here a link for another place:
http://www.filmforclassics.com/
Thanks for the links!
Useless 126 trivia (but rail-related): Remember the Sylvannia Blue-dot flashbulb?> It was invented by Elmer Sperry the same man who's last name graces the side of the yellow rail-inspection cars (like SRS-403 of NYCT).
Sperry helped to perfect radar, invented the gyroscope and applied ultrasonics to rail defect detection, but his most financially rewarding invention was the blue-dot flashbulb. Strange, but true.
Remember the Sylvannia Blue-dot flashbulb?
Remember them? I have four left :). I had no idea about the Sperry connection.
I still have some, too. Now if I could find some Polaroid 75 speed color or 3000 speed b/w for my 210 Land Camera. Not to mention a battery.
Not to mention a battery.
They don't take "J" batteries?
I remember the Instamatics very well. I still have two of them, though I'lll probably never use them again. Loading them was child's play since all you had to do was to insert the cartridge, close the back and wind the film to the first shot. You didn't have to thread the flim into a spool. The new 35mm cameras make that easy since all you have to do is put the end of the film in the slot and close the back. They're nearly as easy as an Instamatic.
#3 West End Jeff
The only drawback I can see is some wasted film at the beginning of the roll. With my manual-loading Nikon FA, I can squeeze three extra frames into a roll (15 on a 12, 27 on a 24, and 39 on a 36). My F4 auto loads, and while I can usually get one extra frame on a roll, only occasionally will I squeeze out two more shots.
Actually, it doesn't answer the question. That looks like a museum arnine, though they do look like regular passengers. And in regular service, the R1-9s that ran in the last days did not carry BMT numbers, as shown here. So this is either a fantrip or there is some other special explanation.
But to answer the questions directly--yes, R1/9s did run on the shuttle.
I remember R27/30's after the end of the Standards. I used to ride it often, and I never remember anything other then R27/30's. The photo does look like museum equipment.
If you look at just the Ditmas Av page and the Ninth Av pages for the Culver Shuttle, there are several pictures of arnines in what have to be regular revenue service.
As I said, that looks like a regular servie train, but something is going on there. The only time regular service arnines used BMT numbers was circa 1950 when a batch of them were used to help open the Astoris Line. I never saw them anywhere but 2-Fourth Avenue Local.
These arnine pix postdate Chrystie Street, after all BMT numbers were more or less officially dumped.
Paul,
In 1971, the cars in the nostalgia fleet [R1-9] were being used in
regular service on the Culver Shuttle or a single run on the QB.
North to 57th AM & South to Brighton Beach\Coney Island PM. This
is five years prior to the opening of the Transit Museum at Court St.
So they would have BMT number\letter routes on the sign curtains.
May have been used for Nostalgia Specials on Weekends, but revenue
service during the week. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
In 1971, there were at least six sets as put-ins on the D ... I had one of them just about every day. Rush hour ONLY, both ends ... layup to Coney when they came back down.
Judging from the font on those bulkhead curtains, I'd say the museum R-1/9 fleet had R-32 route and destination bulkhead curtains. Those QB/Broadway signs definitely look as though they came from the R-32s.
I still lived in Brooklyn then. Sorry I missed seeing it. That sounds like one of Don Harold's ideas.
^^^"That sounds like one of Don Harold's ideas."^^^
IMO, the preservation yes...but using in peak service or shuttle
service????????? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Well, Don always used to say that he tried to keep his hand in, in ways big and small ... he told me he got the signage department to begin using the term "Culver" on station signs in midtown for the southbound F train in the '70s.
Every little bit... :)
I remember riding the R1/9 museum cars on the KK around 1974 or 75.
In the 80s, before the R10s were overhauled, I can remember riding one on the CC,, which, under all the graffitti, still had the original Patterson Green interior color scheme. Was this car a fluke that somehow escaped repainting over the years, or were the others? Also, anyone recall an R10 that had experimental expanded seating? I still remember the unusual "bent" stanchions that was mounted on the edge of the expanded seats......gave the car's interior a very cluttered look....
You need to start reading through the rest of the site.
The car with the expanded seats was 3189, it still exists, it's at Pitkin Yard, and there's pictures of it on the R-10 page.
Attention all BVE NYC Subway Players:
The R40/40M Trainsets are now available for download on my website! Enjoy!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc.
To Acela,
Great work with BVE! Got a Question: How do you add sound into an existing line that does not have sound? How do you place sounds similarly to the G and L lines, where the sounds come in at the middle of the station and before you leave? Thanks!!!
Im sorry I don't have the answer but ask my BVE partners:
Tony C. - ETERNITY TNT@aol.com
Joe - ONeilPhantom909@aol.com
They are the main builders, and thanks for the compliment on the BVE website.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc.
Are you referring to the announcements?
I've downloaded the train sets, and I also downloaded the updated R46 trainset. I think the R46 has to go back to drawing board because it makes this annoyingly loud squeaking sound as I operate it (the old one never did) and it's starting to become irritating. The R46 really doesn't make such a loud squeaking noise when it operates does it?
Nah It doesn't, I have the same problem, I will contact the R46 Creator and get that changed, when it is updated I will Post back here on SubTalk. BTW, How are the self-installation programs? I thought it would be better for people who not all that computer literate.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I can tell you what the problem IS, I've seen it before. The audio "sampling rate" for the sound in use was too low - Mackoy STRONGLY warns NOT to use Microsoft's "sound recorder" to digitize the audio and it would appear that someone did.
BVE requires an oddball sound format, Stereo, 16 bits, 11025 Hz sampling. Do it in something else, and you get heterodynes like a seriously mistuned old shortwave receiver ...
So is there a way to remedy this problem on my own without having to download a fixed up R46 cab?
Whoever digitized the audio has to do it again with the proper recording rate. Theoretically just the one file would need to be replaced, but chances are they'd redo the whole thing as an "updated" download just to avoid all the questions of "what do I do with this file?" Since the bitrate is wrong, I don't see any way of fixing the file itself after the fact ... what you're HEARING is digitizing noise and there's no cleaning that up. :(
Shucks. Guess I'll have to operate the G using a R68A for a little while.
I *like* the 68A ... Ed did a WONDERFUL job on it. I'm sure the other train sound file will get fixed at some point, it IS annoying at slow speeds. Problem with BVE is that in order to provide proper sound with speed, it "adjusts" the pitch ... so the downside for any developer of BVE routes is having to pay for a program that can properly digitize the sound into a format that won't "screech" at lower speeds ... mackoy's guidelines are as follows since I don't know who it was that did that particular train ...
Sound files. Sound files are recorded by the route developer and
are called by the route file at various places along the route. Sound
files take the format:
filename.wav. You can listen to a WAV file by dragging and
dropping it on the MSPlayer icon.
To edit a sound file for BVE you need a program like Goldwave
(http://www.goldwave.com/) at about 40 USD or Cooledit
(http://www.syntrillium.com/) at about 40 USD for the Lite version
and 70 USD for the Pro version. The required format is 22.05kHz
(mono). The Windows Sound Editor is not suitable for editing BVE
sound files.
When the IRT City Hall Station was in use, was it equipped with gap fillers? Any pictures I have seen of the station (after it was abandoned) show no signs of gap fillers. Were the gap fillers removed after the station was closed? Or were gap fillers never installed? It would seem obvious that a station with a curve as sharp as City Hall's would have been natural for gap fillers.
There were no gap fillers. Back then, the train doors were on the front and rear end of each car, and those usually were close enough to platform so that a gap filler was unnecessary. I'm not very sure so anyone who has a better explanation can explain for me.
The cars in use did have a center door, but it could be separately controlled. They just didn't open it at City Hall. Similar operations at South Ferry outer loop, and on the inner loop (shuttle to Bowling Green) they only opened the center doors.
-- Ed Sachs
If the MTA had the money, I would have loved to see them start up a "Nostalgia Shuttle" between the Hoyt-Schemerhorn station and the Transit Museum station at Court Street. I envision a short train of REDBIRDS restored to the original (1962 era)fire-engine red scheme, equipped with flared door sills to mate with the IND platforms (like the IRT Lo-Vs assigned to the Culver Shuttle back in the late 50s and early 60s)interiors featuring repro avertising cars, shuttling passengers back and forth to and from the Museum.....would be really popular with tourists and us buffs...but, somehow, or other, I don't think the MTA would go for it.......Could it be the $$$$$$?? Well, Hell...I can always dream, can't I?? (The train could use track A-1 to shuttle back and forth)
The museum wouldn't be as popular with 25% to 50% of its exhibits removed to make room for bringing that train into the station. They're not going to take the risk of a brake failure or overshot and having the shuttle train smash into cars like R1-100 or the Gate cars....
True..many valid points...but, as I said , I can dream! Thanks for sharing your views! Regards, CC
To CC Local:
All of us on this site are dreamers and wishers. If we werent then this board would be boring and have fewer users. Welcome aboard and keep on dreaming.
Bring Back The Long C (CC) Rockaway Park, Queens To Bedford Park, Bronx.
Thanks for the welcome! Man, I wish they would bring back the CC...along with a fully restored set of fire engine red R10s with Patterson Green interiors! Regards, CC
I was on the CC line back in 1980-'81. I had a good pick-I made one run from Bedford out to Rock Park, then 3 round trips on the shuttle in the PM rush. At that time, the CC was all R10s. Man, I loved those old tanks!
Yep, I really loved those old R10s...!! If they were still around, we could have shipped them over to Saudia Arabia and mount missle launchers on the roofs..they were TANKS, BATTLESHIPS, AND MASTADONS! I used to love to watch the conductor stand between the cars working the plungers to operate the doors....Those cars even SOUNDED heavy!! CC
Caps and Triggers my friend Caps and Triggers
I used to watch the conductor do his thing on the step plates, too. To me, the R-10s will forever be linked to the A. I've always said that one of the best moves the old Board of Transportation ever made was to put the Thundering Herd on the A. If there was ever a car tailor-made for that line, the R-10 was it. When they bore down on 81st St. on the n/b express, you got quite an earful and a blur of teal and white.
hey! welcome ,welcome,welcome....I 've been reading most of your post lately,and man,you sound like i did when I first signed on some years ago....this is the place to be,believe me!! I have lots of fun,and I've learned much,even while being a transit brat![lol] make the best of your time here.Most of these guys work for the T.A and KNOW what their talking about...and there are some that just love trains like me! enjoy your stay,and once again... welcome!
Thanks for the welcome! I know it's obvious that am having a ball with SubTalk......like the proverbial kid in the candy store! Like you, I don't work for the MTA, but am just a guy nuts over the subway system........ben that way for 46 years, know....no cure in sight...)THANK GOD!!)Thanks for the welcome and keep in touch.........Regards, CC
That could work IF the Transit Museum were to relocate some of their colleciton to an unused track at Grand Central....then you could run a short set of Redbirds as a true shuttle from Hoyt to Court Street.
GREAT idea...never thought it that! CC
Its all a moot point anyway!
I'm going to CAPTURE the Fulton Street Local tracks for my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue System. An (HH) train will run local from Cross Bay Blvd on to the presently disused Court Street Tracks at Hoyt Schermahorn, and then proceed towards the Court Street Station, but will bend to the north under Court Street (The Road) having no impact whatsoever on Court Street (the Station), and joining the Myrtle Avenue Line on the Lower Level of the Pineapple Street Tunnel.
For other services on Fulton Street:
The (A) train will be extended along Liberty Avenue, entering a subway routing, and turning North on Supthin Boulevard making a stop at Jamaica Center and terminating at Hillside Avenue on a perpendicular lower level station.
The (E) train will extend (together with the (HH) through 76th Street and then past Cross Bay Boulevard and following Linden Boulevard to the Nassau County Lion.
The (C) Train remains an 8th Avenue Local, but uses the Rutgers Tunnel to become an express service on the Culver Line to Kings Highway.
The (V) Train remains a 6th Avenue Local, and terminates at Chambers Street.
Simple, Right?! hehehehehe......
Elias
Oh Yeah.... I forgot to mention...
The (7) Train will cover the Rockaways after being diverted to a new routing directly from the Stineway Tunnel via the Montauk ROW and then onto the Rockaway ROW. It will be a LONGER run, but will have many fewer stations on it, and most trains will shor turn at the last of several new park and ride facilitis adjoining the Expressway.
The (RR) will then run on the Roosevelt Line to Northern Boulevard, and will join the (TT) train from Astoria in the 60th Street Tunnel.
There is of course a new subway (using a new 79th Street tunnel) along Northern Boulevard to the Nassau County Lion, which will siphon off enough traffic from the Flushing Line to allow the lower capacity (RR) BMT service to handle that route.
: ) Elias
Last time I rode the Roosevelt Island Tram, they only took tokens, no Metrocards. With the forthcoming demise of tokens, will they be accepting Metrocards on the tram? If not, how will fares be paid?
-- Ed Sachs
The demise of tokens does not apply to the Roosevelt Island Tram. It is not a TA operation.
The Tram would need to issue their own tokens or accept Metrocard for fare payment.
Why wouldn't they be able to continue using the MTA tokens? Most tokens that they sell probably end up back in the tram turnstiles anyway. Now that ratio will be improved in the RIOC's favor.
And where would people be able to buy those tokens??
(And where would people be able to buy those tokens?? )
At the booths at either end of the tram.
There was a vending machine at Roosevelt Island and a booth at 2nd Ave in Manhattan.
IIRC the Tram never used MTA tokens. The had a bulls-eye type of token but it was a different size.
You recall incorrectly. The tram has used MTA tokens for a number of years now.
The last fewtimes I've been to Roosevelt Island the Tram has been closed.
I have a few of the old Tram tokens. Where can I cash them in?
Expect a Tunnel Vision artice not long from now on the last bastion of the token. It's not going anywhere people.
According to http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/tokens/othertokens.htm
there is a separate token issued by RIOC. Of course, they also take NYC subway tokens.
RIOC can do several things:
1. Sell and keep on using NYCT tokens. After all, virtually all the ones they sell will just come right back into their farebox.
2. Keep on using their own tokens.
3. (Much more expensive; requires computers, etc.). Allow metrocards.
When I rode the tram last year, I bought a token from the token both and the one I got was a NYCTA token, not a RIOC token. I didn't realize that they even had their own tokens.
-- Ed Sachs
They used to have their own tokens until they raised the fare from $1.40 to $1.50.
Back around 1980, I was heading home from work on a #2 7Th Ave. express. In those days, the old roller signs were really getting put through the wringer; many had frozen gears, cloth snagged in the gears, etc. I was standing in the crowded car. and noticed the narrow roller signs above the windows.....one read POLO GROUNDS, and the one next to it read SUPER EXPRESS.......I was expecting Rod Serling to appear and tell me I was on my way to the TWILIGHT ZONE......
Sometimes a subway ride can seem like it. If you get a conductor who plays the music over the PA system get off at the next stop!
^^^"POLO GROUNDS"^^^ the destination for the Polo Grounds Shuttle were included on the roll signs of the R12\14, since it was still operating, when they were built.
^^^"SUPER EXPRESS"^^^ a variation of the #7 Express, used at different
times, when the R12\14 were there. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
This cartoon (available on VHS tapes) is a must-see for any subway buff...particulary IRT fans....the plot of the cartoon is where Betty's pup "Pudgy" follows her into the subway on her way to work. The entrance kiosk is clearly IRT....the subway trains are obviously Lo-Vs (it's obvious!) and the company name on the sides of the cars reads "TRAMPLE 'EM RR" (that name obviously is still in vogue today!) The music is excellent and infectious, and it is obvious that the Max Fliescher people (many of them used the subways to commute to the studio in Manhattan)got the "feel" of the subway...just listen to the subway sequence music and you will see what I mean! One sequence has Pudgy in the middle of a highly complex junction, with trains whizzing back and forth through the maze of tracks.......just listen to the whistles and you will really remember the old pre-war subway cars!
It also was nominated for an Oscar, but lost out to one of those West Coast Disney pictures. Obviously, the Acadamy voters were not railfans :-)
Try looking at the 1945 Tom and Jerry cartoon Mouse in Manhattan when Jerry running from the police goes in to the subway tunnel. The sign above the platform says Uptown Express (IRT) yet the train that comes by clearly is a BMT Standard. The MGM workers were from California only Joe Barbera was from New York (he worked at Fleischer Studios early in his career before working at MGM).
I think Barbera was a New Rocheller, working at Terrytoons, but I'm sure he had subway experience, even if he did have to take the NHRR to work.
BTW -- The Fleischer people had a much longer commute about the time "Riding the Rails" came out -- because of union problems the previous year in New York, the whole studio moved to Miami in the summer of 1938.
Some people say this was the decline of the Fleischers. The animation style was not very urbanlike as they have done in New York and seems to imitate the style of Disney (which the cartoons usually took place out in the country). But the cartoons were still very good dispite the fact that Gulliver's Travels and Mr. Bug goes to Town failed at the box office (the latter because of the events of Pearl Harbor). They also made the Superman cartoon series which had a budget of $100,000 and excellent art work, it also was nominated for an Academy Award but lost to another Disney Cartoon. Disney had won an Academy Award every year until the mid 40's. In 1942 Paramount fired the Fleischers because their cartoons failed to make profits; Famous Studio's were set up by Paramount to continue production of Popeye cartoons which ran until 1957. Fleischer's influence on cartoons is still felt today on Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, Tex Avery cartoons, etc.
As well as railfan, I'm an Animation fan as well. I love the cartoons from the classic era especially from the 30's and 40's.
Someone should start a website called ToonTalk. I like the classic cartoons also. We could talk about that all day. But it would be OT in here
Sorry man. I was just giving information about them.
I'm not complaining. I'd like to know some more of the history behind the cartoons. It's that the whole thread would be deleted if it went too far OT from Transit.
If I'm not mistaken, Joe Barbera worked for the Van Buren Studios, the studio that was an offshoot of Paul Terry's original studio and supplied cartoons to RKO from 1930-1936, when RKO's switch to Disney cartoons put it out of business. The Van Buren Studio was across the street from the Fleischer studio in Times Square.
In 1937, MGM decided to stop releasing the expensive independently-produced Harman-Ising cartoons and put together an in-house studio headed by Fred Quimby. About half of the staff were former Harman-Ising employees; one of the Harman-Ising Animators, William Hanna, was promoted to a director at this time. The rest of the employees were New Yorkers recruited by former Van Buren animator Jack Zander. Among the people he rounded up was story man Joe Barbera.
During this tumultuous period in MGM Cartoon history, the studio, under the supervision of Hanna, Bob Allen, and Friz Freleng (during his ill-fated two year stint away from Schlesinger/Warner Bros.) produced the awful "Captain And The Kids" series. The New York animators frequently clashed with the west-coast animatators, and many either resigned or were fired. In 1939, Quimby demoted Hanna and Allen, hired Hugh Harman and Rudolf Ising to replace them and bring about some stability, and abandoned the "Captain And The Kids". Freleng resigned in 1940 and was replaced by the team of William Hanna & Joe Barbera, who launched the Tom & Jerry series with the cartoon "Puss Gets The Boot". In the wake of this series' success, MGM hired Tex Avery in 1941, and the MGM studio began a first-rate cartoon factory.
Someone should start up a website called ToonTalk. It's all very interesting to know the history of the cartoons and all. But if it gets too far off topic, the whole thread will be deleted. And I for one would like to know more about the cartoons.
There are 100s of thousands of classic animation websites and message boards. I just entered the phrase "classic animation" into The Hotbot Search Engine and it found 675,000 of them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Fleischer Studio was in the Studebaker Building (just north of Times Square) so the animators didn't have to walk far to capture the essence of the IRT on paper.
aaahhhh...I figured the Fleischer men knew the IRT pretty well!
I remember that cartoon when I was a small kid. You're right about the music, I think it would work only for a subway animation, and they got that pre-war subway whistle dead on. You're memory's much better than mine, I can only remember the Hi-Vs (I think the Hi-Vs ruled seventh avenue back then) whizzing by Pudgy and that surreal music, nothing else.
Anyone know when the TA did away with the term SUPER EXPRESS? I assume it would have been sometime in the 60s......
I don't think there were too many trains deemed to be SUPER EXPRESS. The only one I can think of was the IRT line service from Times Square and Grand Central to Willets Point-World's Fare in 1964-65. There peobably were others.
The JFK line of 1976-90 was a Super Express of sorts, in that it made very few stops, skipping even express stations, on its way from 57/6 (and later, 21 St-Queensbridge) to Howard Beach.
I believe there were also two scheduled PM rush nonstops from Times Square to Main Street that were probably immediately chased by locals. But I dont believe they lasted long. Circa 1962, anyone with a memory longer than mine (I came along in '66) care to embellish?
In 1964 and 1965 there was a train that made stops at Times Square, Grand Central and at Willet's Point-World's Fair. The side signs on the trains said SUPER EXPRESS. I remember connercials where they mentioned about the service. There might have been service like that for the 1939-1940 World's Fair. That was a little before my time. But I did hear that there was service running along what is now the Van Wyck and a subway station in the former Aquacade.
The "Super Express" signs on the World's Fair services did NOT get used for very long. In fact, I think it was done only for promotional purposes.
Reason being, when the train got to Willett's Point/World's Fair station, it had to return to Times Square as a local (and vice-versa int he evenings when the express were running towards Manhattan). All the times I rode these trains, they had the <--LOCAL - EXPRESS--> signs on them, with the local/express in the appropriate direction.
I remember signs that said SUPER EXPRESS on the sides.
I thought the <~~~LOCAL-EXPRESS~~~> and <~~~EXPRESS-LOCAL~~~> signs were for the regular rush hour service.
Didnt some of the Rush Hour #5 Bronx Express trains display "Super Express" signs during the '60's and 70's??? Tony
"Super Express" service in past experiments failed to serve the larger population.
Consider the NX. Sure it's cool to think of a super express like the NX. I bet it got moving really fast on the Sea Beach express tracks.
The problem was that not enough people could take advantage of NX service. IIRC - the NX served only two stations - Brighton and Coney Island before bypassing everything else on the Sea Beach to reach 4th avenue. Sure it was fast for those boarding at Coney Island. But it didn't help 90% of the people using the Sea Beach line. Good speed on the express is fun. But it's definitely annoying if your a passenger waiting at a local station in 20 minutes, 3 expresses pass you by until a jam packed local lets you board.
NX made Brighton Beach, Ocean Parkway, W8 and Stillwell before running non-stop to 59.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but a number of people advocated for 86, Avenue U and Kings Highway to be added to the run, but the TA never wanted to run the service in the first place, so this wasn't done and the service died.
Does any body know the signs of the r32's in the 60's and 70's in order i am doing a project on it thats why.
Anyone ever wonder why the MTA removed the large, easy to read letter indicator on the front of the Slants and replace them with the near microscopic versions seen now on the rebuilds? It's like drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa! I always thought that the company was supposed to make the trains more rider friendly.........in a perfect world....(!!) I vividly remember my first ride as a kid on a brand new Slant around 1967...I felt like Flash Gordon! The sleek slanted snout, the cool-looking interior, ahhhh, this was what new subway trains should be like! Some 14 years later, I boarded a train of Slants at Stillwell Avenue, on my way back from a day at Coney Island...man, how the mighty hath fallen!! The train was totally covered in graffitti and accumulated grime...I even remember the interior lights bieng scrawled over! Ah, to go back to '67, and ride a bright, shiny, brand new Slant R40!!
before it was made ugly by necessary safety improvements. I am not a big railfan of the Slant. The R40M looks better (and safer).
4516 N
Apparently, the MTA decided the "bullet look" for all their route designators would be clearer, because you could put the same colored circle with the letter/number not only on the front and side of the trains, but on the platform signs and on the stairway entrance signs, so the big colored signs that the R-40s and R-42s had were eliminated.
They should have used large "bullet" signs in the Slant R-40s, R-40Ms and the R-42s for easy readability since the signage equipment on those cars could accommodate the large roll signs.
#3 West End Jeff
The bullets were larger until the GOH.
Besides, those big signs used a color scheme that is no longer in use!
However, those big signs took up too much room on the roll. With smaller bullets, you can fit more routes on the roll.
I learned (from a railfan I met at Queensboro Plaza) that the original R-40 rollsigns had only E, F, and S settings -- that's why they're so often pictured blank.
The side signs were limited because they had to carry multiple destination combinations for every route. This limited flexibility with these trains (and the others like them).
Believe it or not, I didn't notice the front sign on the slants initally! I was so zeroed in on looking for the signs above the storm door that I didn't see the huge magenta F to the right of the storm door until my mother pointed it out to me.
Gotta love those 1967 route colors. I'm convinced the BoT people charged with coming up with that scheme were doing mass quantities of acid.
The BoT was long since a thing of the past by then. The TA came into being in 1953, and not long after that, the fare went up to 15 cents.
I thought the TA was born in 67. Whoops.
Well anything is better thatn the digital signs they have on the R32/38 and the R142/143.
For years I recall an old stub track with bumping block at the BMT Canal Street station.....obviously the track had been out of use for years. What trains used it? How long has it been out of service? I believe the track is designated J3.
See here for somewhat current photos of this station.
Take Pride,
Brian
At one point the BMT was using Canal Street as a terminal.
If you consider the history of the entire Nassau Street line, there were alot of things that were planned, built and later abondoned.
The trolley terminal at Delancey/Essex.
The stairway to what would have been the P/T booth at Bowery that possibly might have also been a planned transfer to the SAS.
The tracks at Canal.
The whole complex at Chambers and the 2 tracks that went to the Manhattan Bridge, the proposed ramp to the Brooklyn Bridge and the provision for 2 more tracks behind what is the Queensbound (closed) platform.
The 2 level station at Fulton with the once underpass from one platform to another.
And the rather plain station at Broad St with the 2 track stub south of the station.
FASCINTING STUFF!!!!!
Keep in mind at one time from the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge (Park Row?) (pre-1917) you could have also caught trains going to Rockaway Park and LIRR trains.
No, you could not get to Rockaway Park from the Manhattan Side of the
Brooklyn Bridge without transfering. The joint BRT/LIRR service you
refered to operated from Essex Street & Williamsburgh Bridge via the
Broadway Brooklyn Elevated to Chesnut Street [?] and ramped down to
connect with the LIRR till 1917. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Sparky, not to get technical, but isn't the Essex Street BMT Station right at the Manhattan side of the Bklyn Bridge?
Jeffrey, Essex Street is the Manhattan end of the Williamsburgh Bridge.
There was another joint service, with LIRR trains using the 5th Avenue L to get to the Brooklyn end of the Brooklyn Bridge.
Believe it or not I confused the Essex Street Station with the Chambers Street Station. See what retirement does? I'm getting senior moments at 49!!!
LOL! How can you ever forget THIS:
Chris, it gets worse. I was a NYC medalian yellow Cabbie for over 5 years, a NYC cop for almost 21 years, and to complicate matters, I graduated from Pace U. which is right at the Bklyn Bridge and the Chambers St Station. How I confused it with Essex Street I'll never know!!!
I've seen better looking subway stations in Uzbekistan. Yikes.
There are parts of the closed buildings on Ellis Island that look better than that.
I better take notes. I'm 47 (almost 48) and my doctor wants me to retire on medical!
Hey Sarge,
How about this one.
Essex Street Subway Station on Broadway Brooklyn Elevated.
Delancey Street Trolley Terminal for BRT Streetcars.
Chambers Street Subway Station on BRT/BMT Subways.
PARK ROW, terminal for Brooklyn Elevateds on Manhattan Side
of Brooklyn Bridge & Brooklyn Trolleys underneath.
Got All That. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
^^^"There was another joint service, with LIRR trains using the 5th Avenue L to get to the Brooklyn end of the Brooklyn Bridge."^^^
Paul, where did this joint LIRR service originate?
8-) ~ Sparky
Sparky, I believe this would have been at -- or more appropriately above -- Times Plaza (interseciton of Altantic, Flatbush and 4th Aves.).
The LIRR service originated when Flatbush av Terminal was a street level and they ran a line up to the then 5th av line which went to Sand St and on to the Brooklyn Bridge. Gee I hope I am right I am 49, not retired but i do have those moments
JV
I have those moments also, but I'm 62, so I guess I'm allowed. Also,
I'm behind in my reading, so respones are overlaping each other.
So if I seem out of context, please excuse, I'm not a speed reader. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
your doing fine this is a very good conversation. I do remember when I was very young driving with my father on atlantic av heading down to flatbush ave and for years i noticed a single colnums and el girder work along the north side of Atlantic ave where the original LIRR surface station use to be. It was just in the last year I saw a photo I beleive on the lirr site where 2 tracks turned off flatbush av 5th av line turning east on atlantic av and i guess down to grade leve with the lirr
jv
Some of us* remember a steam engine and tender atop the remaining El structure during the late 1960's.
*Bob Anderson and I
was that the el on the south side of Atlantic Av next to the rail road yards? this would be the really dark structue that had a ramp from the yards and I beleive there was some kind of platfrom thta crossed over atlantic av. does this sound familiar to you. again this was way back in the early 1960's
john
That old ramp was between Atlanic and Pacific Aves east of Flatbush Ave. IIRC there is or was a LIRR yard there. I think Johnson Yard. I don't think there was a platform in the area. And I would think it was an elevated grade crossing.
It is still there...used to 'park' the M-1s during off peak weekday runs. BTW, it is called Carlton Yard (for the name of the north/south running street near the yard.
Yes, it is...
I miss the heyday of Downtown Brooklyn greatly. It must have been quite a scene of transit hub bub. With all the els and bridge train connections. Darn. Then again, there's always hope for the future. Look at Hoboken. Not only did it get a connection at the waterfront terminal to the HBLRT (which BTW shows that even in the New York area it IS possible to build a brand-spanking new multi-mode ROW rail transit line!), now the original finger pier ferry docks are going to be rebuilt, modernized and used for what they were built for. This is a fantastic development, IMO. I can't wait to board a ferry from inside the terminal. Like a time machine.......
Both you and the Douce Man are right. I'm not to good with dates so I looked this up. The 2 issues of The Keystone, (PRR mag) Summer 1999, Vol. 32 #2 and Autumn 1999, Vol. 33 #3 are chock full of information on the Rockaway lines and the joint operations with the BRT. The photos and text are great. LIRR, Rockaway Park via Chestnut ramp to Broadway Ferry, July 17, 1898-1908, to Delancy, May 30, 1909 to August 4, 1913 and to Chambers, August 4, 1913 to September3, 1917.
Thanks for the upgrade. When Brooklyn Bridge is referenced, I think
of Park Row, the terminal for the Brooklyn ELs, not Chambers Street
Subway Station. Pardon Wa. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-Nice having folks on the board, keeping us all correct without
SHOUTING. Thanks again.
Service going to Rockaway Park started at Park Row in Manhattan. It went across the Brokklyn Bridge then switched on to the 5th Ave EL. As the El passed Flatbush Terminal it switched off to the left and down a ramp to the LIRR ROW on Atlantic Ave. which at the time was surface. When the line made it's way to Woodhaven Junction, it made a right hand turn and went to the Rockaways via the Rockaway Beach Branch. The rusty shelton of the ramp was visable from Flatbush Ave between Atlantic and Pacific Aves until about 25 years ago
There was also another route. Started from the same Brooklyn Bridge. Went thru Sands St and over the Brooklyn Broadway line to Chestnut Ave (just before Crescent St) then went over a flyinmg Junction to Atlantic Ave where it connected to the LIRR to Woodhaven Junction where it turned and went vis Rockaway Beach Branch.
There are pictures available on the web to back me up.
For honorable mention, There was also a connection from the IRT at Atlantic Ave to the LIRR. The path is still in sight from the N/E of the Manhattan bound platforms. Of course it is not cut off by the LIRR mezzazine. It was never used for customer service however. IIRC it was used for August Belmont to run his private car (The Minola) from the Belmont Hotel at Grand Central to Belmont Race Track in Nassau.
"There was also another route. Started from the same Brooklyn Bridge. Went thru Sands St and over the Brooklyn Broadway line to Chestnut Ave (just before Crescent St) then went over a flyinmg Junction to Atlantic Ave where it connected to the LIRR to Woodhaven Junction where it turned and went vis Rockaway Beach Branch."
I'd like to correct myself before somebody beats me to it. The BRT/LIRR via the Brooklyn Broadway Line started at Chambers St. Went across the Williamsburgh Bridge and out to Chestnut St and over the LIRR from there. The rest of my post still stands.
The honorable mention of the "Mineola" going from the Hotel Belmont
to Belmont Race Track via the IRT, IIRC has never been proven.
It's hypotetical as the 76th Street Station and Branford's Tunnel
Rat Steve K, also said it did. Same as he believes there is a 76th
Street Station. >GG<
Also I remember the rusty skeleton of the ramp vicinity of Flatbush/
Atlantic Avenues. But didn't know of the connection to LIRR on
the Surface. I always thought it had to do with the never built
Ashland Place connection from the BMT Subway.
8-) ~ Sparky
Unlike 76 Street, there are pictures of the LIRR/BRT connection at Flatbush Avenue. IIRC it lasted until about 1917. The IRT/LIRR connection at Flatbush/Atlantic was never an "official" connection. It was built because Belmont had enought clout to have the connection put in. But it was never used for customer service IIRC.
I'm not sure exactly the Ashford Place Connection was to have been. But judging by my atlas, it would have been on the other (north) side of Flatbush Terminal on Fulton St. A few blocks west of the Lafayette Ave and Fulton St stations on the A and G lines.
I know the connection or remains of the connection are\were there,
but was it ever used "Officially or Non-Officially" by Augie &
the Minnie? That's the question, that's unsubstantiated. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
CC, have you checked this page? Canal St. This has a lot of information. Be sure to check out Bowery, Chambers and the Williamsburg Terminal pages on the web site too.
at BOWERY,There were plans for a future subway,but not the Second ave line... this subway wasnt though of in 1908 when the Center st loop being built... but something was going to go in there.... Anybody... was it suppose to be a Triboro subway line running thur the Bowery station?
According to an ERA track map I bought in 1989, it was supposed to have been an stairway that would have connected with the SAS. The map was dated 1965 so who knows?
^^^"At one point the BMT was using Canal Street as a terminal"^^^
Prior to Chrystie Street, the terminals for Broadway Brooklyn Lines
were as follows:
Broadway Brooklyn Local [14] Rush Hours Only - Canal Street,
Myrtle-Chambers [10] Chambers Street,
Jamaica Local or Express [16] Broad Street.
Service to Brooklyn prior to 1954 was Culver via Tunnel except
rush hours. Rush hours over Bridge [southside] and return to
Brooklyn via Tunnel.
A rush hour service West End Short Line ran to Chambers via the
Tunnel & returned via Bridge [south side].
After 1954 take over of Culver from Church Avenue [IND] to Coney Island, all Culver service ran Local Ditmas to Chambers both directions till Chrystie Street.
8-) ~ Sparky
After 1954 take over of Culver from Church Avenue [IND] to Coney Island, all Culver service ran Local Ditmas to Chambers both directions till Chrystie Street.
Thru service from what was left of the Culver line from Ditmas north via Nassau was ended in 1959, not 1967.
I stand corrected. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
CC, I think most covered what was planned many years ago, but did you know that there are big changes planned for the near future? If you look at the link Railfan Window gave you, you will notice that they took the stub out on the Broad Street bound side out, and that they are currently connecting the former Broad Street Bound "express" track to the Queeens bound "local" track.
Both Canal street and Bowery will be half abandoned in the near future. They will be abandoning the current Queens bound platforms at both Bowery and Canal Street. That is why they only renovated the Broad Street Bound platform. They already closed up all the openings in the curtain wall between the platforms at Canal.
So if you haven't been there in a while, get down there and take a look around - it's almost unrecognizable from a year ago. And in a short time, you will only be able to hope for a Transit Museum "Abandoned Station" tour of the current Queens Bound platforms at both Bowery and Canal.
I believe the southbound "express" track at Canal was reinstalled. I got lost over there recently because I came up and saw both tracks, and thought I was on the northbound platform, but it turns out I wasn't. I guess, as others have said, they'll soon abandon all the Queens-bound platforms.
You mean this one?
Thanks for the pics! No, the stub I was referring to seemed to be in a 'deserted" area of the Canal St station...I believe this track is (was)designated J3. It had obviously been out of use for many years.
The tracks certainly not deserted. At the south end of the station there was a passageway (around the bumper blocks) for people to cross from one side to the other.
That's J3 you're looking at. The track was still in place and still used for an occasional GO until about a year ago. It was last used for scheduled service in the early 90's, when weekend J service terminated at Canal rather than Broad or Chambers.
Currently, the existing signals and cabling are being removed/disconnected for the installation of new equipment when J4 becomes the SB(Jamaica-Bound) local track.
J3/J4 have ties across with red lamps just north of Essex St interlocking.
I hadn't thought of it in quite a while, but Dave Barraza's use of "SB (Jamaica-Bound)" prompts me to ask if Jamaica-bound 'J' and 'Z' trains are still "southbound" in traditional BMT labeling or if the IND-BMT merger affected the old transit compass.
What about 'M' service running through to Fourth Avenue? Since trains in both directions are "Manhattan-bound," which is 'northbound' and which is 'southbound'?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The J4 track has been out of service for decades, and was physically severed from the tracks north of Canal St. I have no idea when it was last used. J4 will become the new northbound trach when Canal St is reconfigured.
CC Local:
The "abandoned" track that you refer to at Canal Street is the second track from the west or in present-day nomenclature the "southbound express track".
When the Centre Street Subway opened on August 4, 1913 trains used only the two westernmost tracks at the station. Southbound trains used the present day southbound local track while northbound trains used the present day soutnbound express track.
This lasted until June 22, 1915 when all four tracks were placed into service. It was decided to connect the northbound track s/o the station into the present day northbound local track. A platform was built accross the south end of the two center express tracks and bumping blocks were installed.
This station became the Manhattan terminal of the "#14 Broadway-Bklyn Local" or "#14 Broadway-Bklyn Short Line." There was an "X" crossover north of the station. It may have been in use until WW II but it was replaced by a facing point switch which allowed trains to arrive and depart only from the northbound express track. Trains may have been able to enter the sountbound express track in an emergency but it would have required a double-reverse move to get them out of there.
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
That is being changed right now. The southbound platform is renovated and retiled. The transfer between platforms has been closed (and being removed). Soon, the station will be in pre-1915 format, except that the current northbound track at Canal (and Bowery, as well as those platforms) will be abandoned.
Tonight looking at the Work Train Routing Guide at 149-GC I noticed to get to 38 St Yard from Westchester it listed
"#6 line to Pacific Street, then W line to 38 St Yard"
Yes it said "#6 line to Pacific." Now looking at the track maps online and my own track guide issued by the TA, I can't find any connection in this area. Anyone know what that's about?
A Typo Perhaps?
No physical connections between the two at Pacific St. If the 6th Av tracks were still open from Grand St to Bklyn, work trains from Westchester Yard could have been routed to Concourse Yard and over the Manhattan Bridge to 38th St Yard.
-Stef
That's a big typo. Or maybe the transfer doesn't use a physical connection, it uses some magical TA portal (of the type that your AVA requests go into and never reappear).
I was just wondering if maybe there was something they left off of the track diagrams. I'll have o look at tonight's routing guide and see if it says the same.
Easy answer - that connection is made via 76th Street (duck, run ...)
--Mark
Looking at the track maps available on this site, the obvious thing to do would be to use the connection between the 4 and the D through Concourse Yard. Then, since the north side MB is out, take the Culver Line to the Coney Island Yard, and reverse again.
What scale are we talking about?
In 1:87 scale you can use your handy 0-5-0 switcher for the job!
: ) Elias
There was a book in our NJ library 40 years ago that I would kill to own now!! This book was entitled "BIG CITY TRANSPORTATION", and I distinctly remember it was published in 1954. It was a children's book, but would be a great item for any nostalgia-mined transit buff to own.....AWESOME NYC transit photos...I have not seen this book in maybe 36 years but I recall it well!! Some of the pics I recall: a shipment of brand new R12s on a carfloat, bieng delivered with large banners on the sides "NEW YORKERS, LOOK! YOUR NEW SUBWAY CARS!", a shot of MUDC El cars on the 3rd Avenue El, a great pic of a conductor operating the doors between two R10s (or R12s), pics of GMC old looks, interior shot of a new Mack, an ACF trolley bus....too many great transit pics to list! Also pics of the Staten Island Ferry, and the Port of Authority bus terminal, showing vintage suburban buses (one an ACF-Brill, the other a Mack).....if you can find a copy of this book, somehow, somewhere..GRAB IT!!! AND ENJOY!!
CC,
Try Amazon.com My wife has been locating numerous books for herself
thru Amazon. Used at substantial savings & many from libraries, that
were just "dusty". You have the title, give it a shot, you never know, till you try.
BTW, if most of the pictures in the book were from NYC, the Trolley
Coach would be St. Louis not ACF. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Back in the early 60s, I had an LP (remember them?)"Arnold Stang's Favorite Funny Stories:....one of the stories is "Schloimy the Subway Train", the story about a subway train (a Bronx Express) who loves the Bronx...PERIOD!! When his conductor announces that they are going to Brooklyn, Schloimy protests, but soon founds out that "Brooklyn is a swell place, too, y'know?" He goes to Coney Island (mentions the Parachute Jump), Prospect Park, and Ebbets Field to see a Dodger game (that REALLY dates the album!)
Now to all of you who dont work with us,I have a question ,Lets say you are employed by T/A in a title like cleaner ,C/R ,token clerk ETc would you take the next promotional test,If it meant Losing your Regular days off and Not being able to pick the line you work on for the next 4 years? I ask because the summer pick is over and Train operators have moved back a little some people who had pick jobs fell back to being extra,all of them have been employed since Jan 2001.With 2004 coming and opening of the bridge and stillwell those people will fall even further back, So its possible for them in the B division to not have picked for 4 years.So ofcourse there giving another test which if you get hired you have 4 years behind the poeple who just picked,Thats insane ,no holidays or regular starting point ,working all shifts.It seems the Job is losing its luster.
I think you might have witnessed a large influx of T/Os from the A Division. I've moved up 4 spaces on the AM RDO Relief South list, but I know that some people behind me have fallen farther behind.
And I (February 2001 hire) moved up 9 spaces on the PM RDO relief Queens list.
That makes no sense, the T/O pick moved up a few spots like I have been telling everyone on the newsletter. This is not the backwards 20 fantasy of some of the XXL or Luch's craziness.
Some of the highlights are there were fewer jobs, there was a net flow of A to B some for money jobs and a few bcasue they never wanted A. A large % of Sabbath observers were able to pick this pick. Now if you were picking for RDO this was a rough pick but last pick was unusually good with people with less than 2 years getting a piece of the weekend in one extreme case.
As for the not picking I have two years and still have not picked. Most of the XXL love not picking for many reasons (I'd rather pick). There will be some movement when some of these guys retire after getting their 1K.
These last tests were the time to come in as a C/R or T/O. About 1/4 of the c/r have less than 3 years and 1/6 of the T/O have about 2 years. People will move up just don't expect that many hires of off the next lists. The next big group of potential retires were hired in 81-83 but many will not be 55 so they will not retire. The next big hiring band was 88-92.
Expect the job losses in T/O in 2004 and 2005 to eat all the retiree spots becoming available. But that means the next list will not be highly utilized. Now the way to increase seniority is the XXL grievance. The TA really does not need almost 450 XXL people, they can create another 100-200 XL spot so that XL people can get better RDO and some VR or RDO relief people might switch over too.
One thing about C/R's we move up fast. I was able to pick PM RDO REL in the East 4/5 Lines after 1 Year. I know a lot of T/O's with two years and still XXL. It seems most are ready to drop.
It seems like the A Div. has cut a few jobs.
As a B division C/R I was XXL for a year and a half. The B division moves a bit slower than the A.
Really! I would have never known. I would think since B Div is bigger it would be a snap to pick a job. I heard a few of my B Div. clasmates are doing will now. I heard someone behind me picked a trip and a half on the Nancy. My C/R's class was split 20 to A Div 40 to B Div. I became friends with the one's going to B Div but when It was time to decide I had to say A Div. I couldn't see myself reporting to Far Rock or Coney Island at 4AM.
The resumption of pre 9/11 service pattern in the A cut jobs and C divison is slowly but surely cut too forcing guys on the road especially since there is not money on the remaining jobs.
The contract did not help with many oldster hanging on for that 1K especially since it is pensionable plus they want to see the pre-medicare medical before they depend on it, who could blame them.
C division?
"Work trains" ... nice gig when you can get it, long hours. Never know WHEN you're going to clear most days. Some folks *LOVE* C division work ...
Ok. I thought it was something top secret as part of Project Atlas or something like that.
Heh. Sorry for the wait ... busy as all getout here in the wirebarn. yeah, "C division" is the TA's "elite" ... fan trips, money train, garbage train, work motors, etc ... I knew several folks that worked there over the years. The additional hours sorta make up for the non-revenue paycheck, but ya never know when the day's over until the fat dispatcher sings. :)
>>> Thats insane ,no holidays or regular starting point ,working all shifts.It seems the Job is losing its luster. <<<
Yeah, but hang in there, one of these days they will start paying you money for the work you do. :-)
Tom
Perhaps your horizon is too short. Consider what a promotion or two will do for your career over the next ten years.
Hello everyone. I have been a lurker here for a while. This is my first post. I live in Norristown, PA. I saw something today that shocked me. Maybe someone here knows more about this. I was driving and got caught in traffic on 23 near Davis Road. I looked over and saw what looked like a railroad coach or interurban in the distance by an old farm. It was half covered by a tarp. I got off and doubled back. Up a narrow private road, I found myself face to face with an IRT Lo-V! The car is right in front of an old barn. The property is being developed into homes and I guess this car was in the barn at one time? The car is painted a faded yellow and looks like it may have been a work car. There are no numbers on it but there are two partial painted numbers on two of the windows. One is 20 and then the glass is broken and the other is 303 and broken glass as well. Most windows are intact but some have wood over them. The car looks like it has seen better days. I am no expert but it looks to have all it's guts including wheels under the car. I was there for about 5 minutes when a teenage boy came over. He said his father owns the property and is selling it. He told me the car was just sold to a person who will restore it and make it run. Anyone know about this? I want to contact the NY transit museum about this. A car like this should be saved. After all. The 100th Anniversary is coming up. I am going to call the museum tomorrow and tell them about this. Hey...who knowws? I may get a thank you gift!.. This weekend, I will ask my son to come with me to this car. He has a digital camera and I can send pictures to this website.
-Robert Gratofsky
Norristown, PA
The Transit Museum already has Lo-Vs in it's collection. So, it's doubtful they would be interested. Pictures would be interesting though.
Peace,
ANDEE
^^^"The Transit Museum already has Lo-Vs in it's collection."^^^
ANDEE, you mean the 4 car set, that we all hope will be operating on
October 27, 2004? [HMM, know a pair of guys with that birth date.]
Is that set owned by the Transit Museum or RPC?
8-) ~ Sparky
They're supposed to be owned by RPC!
Lo-V Trailer 4902 is owned by the Museum, 5290,92, 5443, and 83 are owned by RPC.
When was the last time 4902 was used on an excursion?
-Stef
And I thank my fellow Branfordites for the responses. >GG<
And 5466 Low V Class, will be operating next Sunday, March 30 for
"The Gathering of SubTalkers". See Coming Events for Details. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I can't wait. 6 Days and counting....
-Stef
Well, to repeat what Stef's waiting for, here's the scope:
A Gathering of SubTalkers @ Branford, IRT Day
The next gathering of SubTalkers at the Shore Line Trolley Museum, East Haven, Conn is scheduled for Sunday March 30, starting at 9:30 AM.
It will be IRT day with Lo-V 5466 as the featured car. 3662, an IRT Hi-V will also make a trip to Short Beach that day.
This SubTalk gathering is being hosted by Branford's 3/4 Toners and is not Museum Sponsored. It a gathering of the gang for a day of fun and helps boost interest and membership in the museum. Bring your friends, they do not have to be SubTalkers. Bring your cameras &
videos.
You must have a membership in BERA to participate. All attendees offset the costs of operating this charter. Handle time will be allocated to all participants with a regular or higher membership class.
If you are not a member of BERA, go to bera.org for a membership application, print out and bring with you on March 30. All current members, please bring your membership card.
For further information contact John Sikorski ~ Sparky trolley687@aol.com
or [718] 389-0979.
Sparky, I'm working to improve the weather :-) but we might have an interesting day of Transit and (wet) Weather Together. See you next week!
Oh, don't tell me that. We had an overcast drizzly day in October.
I'll see you next Sunday in Nutmeg and the following Saturday in
the South of Maine. How's the melt down at Seashore doing? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I hear that mud season is developing nicely at Seashore. We have a brand new power station just waiting to deliver 600v this season.
to echo Sparky's reply ... oh I hope not :-(
The Hi-V can't come out in the rain, because we don't have a unbrella big enough ... seriously, we have a stand in for that one extra trip should it be necessary, BUT the drops won't dampen our spirits !
I'm realy looking forward to it. The cars are way in the back barn. Since you'll all be members, come early & watch us go thru the yard ladder (customer's aren't allowed back there because we don't want them to get hurt, greasy, dirty, wet, etc.)
BTW, who's birthday is it ?
>>>"BTW, who's birthday is it?"^^^
Private Party, not related to the SubTalk Charter.
Hey, I didn't put the damper on Sunday, I received the forecast
from a weather-wise member of several trolley museums. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Robert, You should hook up with Joe Frank. He lives just North of Philly, and is a big subway el fan. Try his web site nycmodeltransit.
Ill be in Philly for the trolley meet May 4th, Id love to check out your find (obviously, taking only pictures and leaving only footprints, respecting private property and so forth). If youd be willing to share better details on the location, that would be appreciated. (Contact me privately if you prefer or wish). If the body is available, we might be interested. (We being the Seashore Trolley Museum).
BTW, near your hometown in Oley PA are some former Reading streetcars in good condition, I will provide details if you are interested in trolley era relics.(Ill email you a map).
Conrad Misek
Boston
Stop by my table at the meet and say hi. I'll be there with my videos. Can't miss me :)
--Mark
I'll be sure to! I'll probably bring Fred Maloney from Seashore with me.
Thanks for the info. Cool.
Welcome to SubTalk. It's always good to have more Philly-area posters here! I hope I get a chance to drive out and see the car while it's still there.
Mark
Yes, pictures, please! It might also have been a Hi-V. 20303
would be consistent with the renumbering of those cars into
work service.
If it's indeed a Hi-V, it would mean there's another one still around in addition to 3352 and 3662.
The Transit Museum has no Hi-Vs in it's collection, perhaps this might be the one for them, assuming that it is Hi-Voltage...
-Stef
It is privately owned...
Checking in from Graterford PA.
Remember the long-gone and short lived NX train? What was the story behind that train? Was it an experiment to try to speed up the run? I remember Brightliners assigned to that run, with a blue metal disk with white "NX" letters affixed to the safety chains on the lead car.
Very low ridership was the catlyst for it's demise in 1968, it lasted barely a year. Most of the time, R27/30's were used on the short lived line.
The Seattle Pilots of Line assignments...
Yeah, but the Pilots had cool hats and Jim Bouton pitching for them while he was writing "Ball Four".
The Seattle Pilots of Line assignments...
Better than being the Baltimore Claws of line assignment.
The NX route lasted from Nov,67 to July 68 I believe. It didnt work because operation didnt want it. It was realy a Brighton express route running on the Sea Beach line. It had to be a operations nightmare,reversing at Brighton Beach,switching at Coney island,and waiting for a slot at brighton Beach[along with the QJ/QB].HAD to be a pain in the butt. FOr years there was a single track connection from the Sea Beach to the Brighton,does anybody know when the southbound Sea BEACH track was removed?
That single track leading to track 2 at Stillwell was there before Stillwell renovation, unless NYCT has other ideas, new trackage will be in place by 2004.
yes,the North bound[Manhattan]track. I'm speaking of the South bound[to Coney Island]track that ended at the bummer block...it didn;t always do so... does anyone know when it was removed and why was it removed?
What year do you remember two tracks connecting from the Sea Beach
tracks to the Brighton Tracks south end? IIRC, I'm early sixites
now, only track 1 connected to the Brighton since the forties.
Now the connection is track 2 during the overhaul of Stillwell Ave.
8-)~ Sparky
Reviving such a service may have merit to revitalize Coney Island.
Since the late 60's CI has had a tremdouse amount of apartments put up. Such a service would reduce some crowding on the current brighton express.
1)Brighton Beach - 850 apartment Oceana complex which is not yet completly open http://www.oceanausa.com/index_flash.html. Quick Express service into manhattan is a major selling point
2)Ocean Parkway- Numerous new building put up since thw late 1960's
3)West 4th street area - The sprawling Mitchel Lama developments
4)Stillwell terminal area has plenty of room for developement. Direct express train service to manhattan will make the area more attractive to developers. In addition the there are numerous housing projects that are currently a long way from manhattan that were built post 1970.
If you route the service via west end express you may spur development along the west end from CI to Bay parkway.
If the service gets routed via Sea Beach, it would be bennificial to allow the service to stop at 86th street.
For #3, did you mean West 5th Street (meaning Trump Village and Warbasse)? For #2, I'm aware of only one new building in the immediate vicinity of recent vintage.
The NX was created precisely to serve the new apartments that were going up in the '60s. Yet the ridership wasn't nearly enough to justify it, and it made terminating trains at Brighton Beach very challenging. It didn't attract these apartment dwellers.
--Mark
Larry, RedbirdR33 post demonstrates why the ridership never materialized. Why wait for a super-express if chances are that it will end up going local and taking longer to get to work then if you took the regular brighton service. The sea beach line into manhattan is a long tedius ride.
It appears that the TA did nothing to correct some of the operational issues that seriously delayed service such as the absolute block that extended from kings highway to 8th ave(a 7 station stretch). If the TA wanted the service to work out they could have made some scheduling and signaling changes to see that it ran smoothe
"Five factors contributed to the demise of the "NX".
No. 1) Congestion at the Coney Island Terminal frequently delayed the trains up to ten minutes.
No. 2) Congestion at the Brighton Beach Station which served as a terminal for the "QB" and "QJ" as well as the "NX". This was further complicated by the need to switch the local trains onto the express tracks at Brighton Beach and the express to the local tracks.
No. 3) Limited capacity of the Sea Beach Line express tracks. There was an absolute block in effect between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue which meant that one train could not enter the block until its leader had cleared the block at the other end. This took about twelve minutes.
No. 4) Frequent re-routing of the "NX" to "N" local service because the "N" was running late or not at all. (Sounds familiar?)
No. 5) It simply runs against the grain to a New Yorker's way of thinking to board a southbound train when you want to go north. Why stand on the southbound platfom at Brighton Beach waiting for a once-every-twelve minute trains when there was a veritable host of "D", "OB", and "QJ" trains headed to Manhattan on the opposite platform?
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33"
There are two new buildings that appear newer then the 1980's located on Ocean Ave just off the Beach
The mitchell lama developement I was refering two is near the West 8th street stop. The developments is called Lunar Park. Most people take the brighon line into the city due to it being the quickest ride into the city. It is a two seat ride(must change at sheapshead bay for express service)
I'm all for that but I have a caveat on this. Instead of calling it the NX, how about the N4. This way it accomplishes two things.
1. It allows the train to carry both insignias it has used up to now.
2. It would allow me to wear my black N4 hat I have and make me ride this train with dash and style and I head out to ride the Cyclone, eat at Garguilo's and watch the Brooklyn Cyclones kick the hell of the rotten Staten Island Yankees.
You need to wear your Brooklyn Dodgers cap next time you're in the city.
The N4 is the Merrick Road bus in Nassau County!
If I wore my hat when I got on board would they give me a free pass? Yeh, and the sun rises in the West.
No, but they will happily accept MetroCards!
And the pope's actually married.
They should definitely have some kind of express train leave to/from Coney Island during rush hour. The best way to do this would be to have it it run on the West End Expres track, since it can make some intermediate stops along the way, unlike on the Sea Beach. In addition, to spur development near Coney Island, the express train could stop at Bay 50th and 25th Avenue before switching to the express track at Bay Parkway. The express train could be the W, with the M making the local stops after Bay parkway.
My only question though, is can trains switch from the express track to the local tracks at 9th Avenue? It looks like they can, in one direction, if not the other. How does that work?
I completly agree with your assesment.
The west end routing would have the advantage of intermediate stops to pick up addtitional riders. For years I have been advocating restarting west end express service adding feeder buses to the express stops.
Looking west from the express track. If you look to the back, you see two tracks going into the tunnel, one of which is this one. A Coney Island-bound express would have to switch at about 7th Avenue, directly to this track. A Manhattan-bound train would use the slip-switch to get to the track immediately to the right, which comes from the lower level. It would continue west on this track until it merges into the westbound (or is it northbound?) track heading for 4th Ave. Does this answer your question? Yes, it is definitely possible, though why call it the W? Why not T? "Doubleyou" has three syllables, takes too long to say when giving directions, and it's rollsign doesn't look right. The letter, "W", barely fits on the sign, and an R68 W train looks creepy coming out of nowhere down the ramp at 36th Street Station. "T" is much easier to say, and easily fits in its circle.
How unique! Calling a West End express "T". I should have thought of that.
The area around Coney Island will be serviced by 4 different routes. It doesn't need an NX revival.
The NX made its last run on April 12, 1968. Ironically, that happened to be Good Friday that year.
How many instances have there been of regular revenue service on the Sea Beach express tracks? I know that the NX was the last time they were used and I loved riding it as often as I could back then.
The Sunny Sunday Summer Specials to Coney Island used them. That was the intent of the Sea Beach express tracks all along - to move masses of beachgoers to Coney Island.
You say that the NX was a Brighton Express. You may be right, but if so, then why was it not called "QX" instead of NX.
NX=Noble Experiment.
Too bad that it didn't last. I guess they didn't publicize it enough so the ridership was quite lacking. The "NX" would have made quite a fast ride even to this day.
#3 West End Jeff
NX stood for Noble Experiment. Prohibition was another noble experiment.
CC Local: The "NX Broadway Express" ran between 57 Street-7 Avenue, Manhattan and Brighton Beach, Brooklyn via the Broadway Line, Canal Street Line, Manhattan Bridge (South Side), 4 Avenue Line, Sea Beach Line and Brighton Line.
This service ran Monday thru Fridays with only with five trains in each direction. The Manhattan-bound "NX" left Brighton Beach at 7:32, 7:44, 7:56, 8:08 and 8:21 AM. The Brooklyn-bound "NX" left 57 Street at 4:45, 4:57, 5:09, 5:17, and 5:29 PM.
The map color for the "NX" was light blue.
The first day of operation was Monday, November 27, 1967.
The last day of operation was Friday, April 12, 1968 when they were replaced by regular "N" trains.
"NX" trains were eight cars long and orginally ran with all R-38's. Later some R-32's were added but from Decemeber 15 onward it was primarily R-27's.
Five factors contributed to the demise of the "NX".
No. 1) Congestion at the Coney Island Terminal frequently delayed the trains up to ten minutes.
No. 2) Congestion at the Brighton Beach Station which served as a terminal for the "QB" and "QJ" as well as the "NX". This was further complicated by the need to switch the local trains onto the express tracks at Brighton Beach and the express to the local tracks.
No. 3) Limited capacity of the Sea Beach Line express tracks. There was an absolute block in effect between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue which meant that one train could not enter the block until its leader had cleared the block at the other end. This took about twelve minutes.
No. 4) Frequent re-routing of the "NX" to "N" local service because the "N" was running late or not at all. (Sounds familiar?)
No. 5) It simply runs against the grain to a New Yorker's way of thinking to board a southbound train when you want to go north. Why stand on the southbound platfom at Brighton Beach waiting for a once-every-twelve minute trains when there was a veritable host of "D", "OB", and "QJ" trains headed to Manhattan on the opposite platform?
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33
I rode the NX once from Manhattan outbound. As I remember it ran pretty fast until the immediate approach to Coney Island. At that time there was only one set of tracks to carry the Sea Beach and the West End trains into Stillwell Terminal. The other bridge had not yet been built.
The day that I rode the NX it arrived at that two track bridge and sat and waited and waited and waited for a West End train to enter Stillwell ahead of it. There was a passenger on the NX with a stop watch - I imagine timing the running time and the delay time.
Maybe it might work now because there is that four track approach to Stillwell Terminal. Why not keep it going through and down the Brighton Line into Manhattan as a Brighton Express? It could end up at 57th St. and not lose any time terminating at Brighton Beach. The crew change could take place at Brighton Beach or Coney Island.
Brighton local trains crawl between Ocean Parkway an Stilwell terminal
The MTA could make a NX type service work today if it wanted. The only issue is that most current residents of the area don't know that such a service is a possibility. The straphangers campaign is worthless in advocating updated services that will help the riding public.
With the advent of digital roll signs(although no current N or Q service has them) could allow trains to just pass through from the sea beach and do an on the fly crew change and continue up the brighton.
The MTA could make a NX type service work today if it wanted.
It could even leave from the Northbound platform at Brighton Beach, then use the crossover South of the station to switch to the Southbound track. Even better, the crossover could be moved South of Ocean Parkway, then the Express tracks could run English between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway, giving the following configuration:
(Q) Brighton Local (<<[ISLAND PLATFORM]
(NX) Sea Beach Super Express (>>>to BB>>>)
(NX) Sea Beach Super Express (<<[ISLAND PLATFORM]
(Q) Brighton Local (>>>to 57/7>>>)
What might make it even more workable would be avoiding the (D) or (Q) Brighton Express and (NX) Sea Beach Super Express getting in eachother's way by making them the same train - if necessary, a crew change could happen at Brighton Beach, the rollsign could be wound on (the wonders of electronic signs...), then it would continue straight on.
With the R-143s and future R160,s that would be easy. With the R-44s or R-46s, you'd have to manually change the end sign.
Why bother changing the sign? If it's going to be one continuous service, you could just have two parallel loop routes. Q and X, Q being the outer loop (2nd Ave-Bway-4 Av-Sea Bch-Brighton-Bway-2nd Ave) and X being the inner loop (2 Av-Bway-Brighton-Sea Beach-4 Av-Bway-2 Av). And if you reconnect the Brighton locals to the Culver level and turn every other F at Kings Highway (exp,lcl), this could actually be possible. If you have two routes, you could use manual rollsigns. We'll all be dead by the time R44, 46, and 68 are all gone.
Mindset would be the problem they'd have to get around here. Just as the MTA will tell people in Manhattan or on the Queens Blvd. line that the locals are only slightly slower than the express, but people still jam on the 4/5, 2/3 or E/F trains at the express stops, convincing passengers at Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy. and West Eighth St. that the fastest way to get to Manhattan is counter to the way they would normally go would be the big hassle.
Getting passengers on at Stillwell wouldn't be a problem, but you'd need riders from the other three stations to justify a revived NX service (or the MTA could lower the express tracks at Kings Highway and New Utrecht and build express stops below the local tracks at both stations, that in itself could justfy rush hour peak-direction express service 59th-Stillwell).
"convincing passengers at Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy. and West Eighth St. that the fastest way to get to Manhattan is counter to the way they would normally go would be the big hassle"
This is not neccissarily true. riders at West 8th and Ocean Parkway already make the deccision on a daily basis as to which line to take into the city. Remember that they currently have to take the local one or two stops to brighton or sheapshead bay to get the express(the Q express at brighton beach departs at both the northbound and southbound express track)
The new customer information screens that are set to be installed systemwide could notify passengers which train will arive next
Yes, but in general when they go to the city they head north or northeast on the Culver or Brighton lines. The counterintuitive part is getting on a Coney Island-bound train at Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy. or West Eighth in the morning to go to Manhattan.
Riding though the station at night coming home would be as big a problem, and it could be done, since some passengers on the J at 121st. St. will head east in order to transfer to the E train when going to work in the morning in midtown Manhattan instead of riding to Essex for the F. But it would take some patience on the MTA's part in order to gain enough ridership to make a revived NX service work.
the MTA could lower the express tracks at Kings Highway...
Why lower? Just switch.
...and New Utrecht and build express stops below the local tracks at both stations, that in itself could justfy rush hour peak-direction express service.
Wouldn't it be easier to stick an express platform over the now unusable southbound express track, and build a stair up to the mezzaine, than to rip the tracks up, suspend N service while you dig the cut deeper and stick platforms down there? That sounds kind of expensive and would disrupt service extensively while they do construction.
With the current three-track set-up that would be easier. I was just waxing nostalgic for the glory days of the NX, when all four tracks on the Sea Beach were usable. :-)
No thanks Redbird 4. If we are going to run a super express called the NX or any other title it will run on the Sea Beach tracks. Period.
You would have loved the old NX. I'll bet you would have ridden on it every day, wearing a silly grin all the while.:)
I did.
I have read that the TA did NOT want to run the NX route. Who was it's main proponent? Local elected officials?
In a very old post, someone obtained the first proposals for Chrystie St routings (and all of the other BMT IND southern division ones). The first phase (planned in 1966) had the "Q" train rerouted via the eventual "NX" route. I dont know how opposed the TA was to that concept. I read that the TA didn't want the "QB", but community opposition insisted on a Brighton/Broadway routing!!!! Tony
I think they can bring back the double letter but only on 1 condition. they all run only during rush hours except the QT AND QB. What do you people think plus it would make less crowding on lines now and make it look like it was the 70's again.
I think that they will need double letters, especially after they finish building all of my fantasy lines: There won't be enough single letters to go around! LOL
No, I think that the LOCALS should be double lettered, and express routes keep the single letters.
Unless of course you go to a whole new format such as:
(8A) 270th Street to Lefferts
(8B) 168th Street to Chambers
(8E) 179th Street to Euclid
(7A) White Plains Road to Flatbush Avenue
(7B) 148th Street to New Lots Avenue
(7C) 241st Street to South Ferry
(6A) 205th Street to Coney Island via Brighton
(6B) Bedford Park to Bay Parkway via West End
(6F) 179th Street to Coney Island via Culver
(5A) CoOp City to Union Turnpike
(5B) Northern Blvd to Jamaica Avenue
(5C) Northern Blvd to Green Acres
(5G) Steinway Street to Jamaica Center
(5H) 161st Street to 76th Street
(4A) Jerome Avenue to Utica Avenue
(4B) Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue
(4C) Pehlam Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
(2A) 125th Street to Coney Island via Sea Beach (via Broadway)
(2B) Fordham University to Water Street
(2E) Continential Avenue to Water Street
(1A) Jamaica Center to Kings Highway via Brighton (via Broadway)
(1G) Continential to 95th Street
(1T) Astoria to Coney Island via West End
(QG) Court Square to Church Avenue
(QR) Times Square to Main Street
Etc, etc...
Hope it makes some sense to you...
Elias
That's only 25 routes. What do you need double letters for? Or have you forgotten that there are 26 in the alphabet, plus numbers?
Oh, I got more routes than that! I just wanted to get a feel for how the scheme would apeal to others.
Elias
[...and make it look like it was the 70's again.]
NO!!! If you want the subway system to look the way it did in the 1970's, you'd have to bring back things like (1) crime; (2) graffiti; and (3) deferred maintenance.
Nah. Forget all the bad stuff, just bring back the Culver, Myrtle, and 3rd Avenue Els, and the R30's.
And the R-10s, too. On the A.
I don't think they need double letters, they'll never find enough money or ways around NIMBYs to build enough lines to run out of letters. Theoretically they should, but they won't. I do think they should have double numbers, though, for peak-direction express service. Make the express be equal to the local plus 10, and if you have two levels of express, you can add 20. For example, the 7-diamond express would become the 17, the 5 diamond would become the 15, etc.
D-Train, tell your friends not to go there on that one. It is a mine field. Two years ago I came out with the suggestion that to end confusion over letters like Q Diamond and Q Circle, every train in the New York Subway System be given a number 1 to however many different lines there are. You could break it down in sequence for the IRT, then the IND. then the BMT, or something combo like that. You think I had kidnapped the Lindberg baby because the critics came out of their holes like gophers. I dropped the idea when only three other Subtalkers came out in support of at least thinking it was a good idea. Just a warning to you.
Forgotten NX?
don't you mean...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Up until the 1970s, I remember a long passageway connecting the 33rd St terminal of the Hudson Tubes (PATH) to Penn Station. I remember there were doors leading into Gimbel's basement as well as other stores, and there were also store display windows as well. I remember back in the 60s it was well lit and safe, but by the mid 70s it was dirty, dimly lit, and reeked of urine...I know it was closed off in the 70s....does it still exist behind the new walls? I recall for many years after its closure, you could view its dark, spooky length through a closed gate. For the many who now have to go to Penn Station from the 33RD St PATH terminal in inclement weather, re-opening the old passageway would be a godsend...All they would have to do is a have a few cops stationed along the passage. Sad...and scary, when urban areas become so unsafe that the public has to be inconvencied for thier own safety.
There is still a passageway from 34 to 33 sts underground. It's closed at night because homeless camp out down there (as well as other stations) Gimbals became Manhattan Mall. Something like 10 floors of different stores.
There used to be a passageway from 6 to 7 Aves alongside 33 St. It was closed altogether because no one could agree who should be responsible for it. Be it TA or MTA or LIRR or Amtrak or NYC Police.
It is still there, just sealed up.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, still there. Like he said :)
Just like the passageway on 6th Ave between 34 and 42 St stations.
Yeah, they use that for storage now. There are doors at either end.
Peace,
ANDEE
So, it has been decided who can store things in the passageway but not who should have secured and otherwise supervised it?
Both properties were taken over one was The Hobo Arms and the other was the Rapists Retreat.
I also heard it was called "Scuzzball Boulevard" and "Derelict Drive".......
I think TA stores things in the passageway.
I think that the TA Stores things in the 6th Ave 34-42 passageway, which is wide and has (had?) access to the streets above. It likely enough was (or could be) subdivided into spaces for the use of various crafts. Also it is quite clear that the TA *owns* that passageway.
I doubt that the 33rd St 6-7 passageway could have been used for storage,
because it is narrow, and I continue to have doubts as to who actually does own the passageway. It is my belief that it is actually under the sidewalk rather than under the street, and as such it is a vault space that belongs to the adjacent buildings, rather than to the city. It is my understanding that Gimbles built the passageway, and it had showcases to as well as enterances to its store. Likwise the hotel rented out space to retailers in that passageway.
You will recall the to enter the tunnel from Penn Station you had to go up two or three steps, but also make two 90 degree turns (right and left) to get into the tunnel, which is why I believe that it was as I have said under the sidewalk.
If this is so, then it would be up to the building owners to consider opening the tunnel, and to provide maintenance, cleaning, and security, and wholy explains why no one can take responsibility for it.
Elias
(If this is so, then it would be up to the building owners to consider opening the tunnel, and to provide maintenance, cleaning, and security, and wholy explains why no one can take responsibility for it.)
They could of course sell the passageway to NYCT if they wanted to and if NYCT was interested (2 very big ifs). Certainly many other areas underneath sidewalks are NYCT territory and no vault space of the adjacent buildings. (One example that comes to mind is that the platforms at Bleecker are under the sidewalks and go directly to the building line; the street is just barely wide enough for the 4 tracks).
I don't suppose the city *wants* the Vault Space!
Do you know anyplace on the IND where the subway encroaches on the sidewalk vault line?
I suspect that the IRT and BMT negotiated with the land lords for these encroachments.
The vaults, under the sidewalks (That may not go all the way to the street line) were used for basement accesses, stairs or elevators, and were frequently used as coal bunkers when coal heat was king. You will also find Con Ed transformers in there for the various buildings, and access to other utilities, including steam, gas, water, and sewage.
Thus this is the kind of space that we are looking at in the Gimbles tunnel, but it is (if I am correct) clearly property of the building owner.
Also, what of the platform level store enterance to A&S in Brooklyn?
Elias
(Do you know anyplace on the IND where the subway encroaches on the sidewalk vault line?)
Grand St shuttle (i.e., B/D in normal times) from Houston onto Chrystie encroaches on a whole piece of property. The parking lot there just closed. Whoever plans to build there is going to have a subway in their sub-basement.
All four IND 53rd St curves must encroach flagrantly into sub-basements as well, since they aren't very sharp curves. I wouldn't be surprised if the buildings there were built in coordination with the original subway construction.
The IND is quite a bit deeper than the average IRT/BMT station.
An IND station would be well beneath any vaults or basements that belonged to the nearby buildings.
IRT/BMT lines on the other hand were just below the street with fare control on the same level as the platform. There were vault lights that would allow sunlight into the subway platforms. These were clearly on the sidewalks, because I have seen them there, and have even seen light shining through them before they became so opaque as to become useless.
I suspect but am not sure, that similar lights may have been used to help iluminate building vaults. All of the building vaults that I have been in only extended five or maybe ten feet from the building, as does the Gimbles Tunnel, the sidewalks, at least on avenues where subways exist are wider than this, and it may be possible for both the building and the subway to occupy space under a sidewalk.
Elias
I was refering to a passageway between n/e of 34 St mezzazine and s/e of 42 St mezzazine under 6th Ave that is a storage room.
You can even see light from a crack where the wall meets the ceiling.
In the picture (in yellow) was my idea for reconfiguring the fare controlled layout to include the passage. Some other things have changed. (Such as the news stand taking over the passage that ran behind it).
The new building on 7th and 49th built a new passage providing a connection from the 49th St. station to Rockefeller Ctr. It closes when the building is closed, and they don't seem to have any problem maintaining and guarding it, so I don't see why the Mall at 33rd or Penn Sta. doesn't want to be responsible for that one.
Another idea would be a moving walkway like at Courts Sq., only this one would take up the whole width of the passage. (one belt for each direction)
The new building on 7th and 49th built a new passage providing a connection from the 49th St. station to Rockefeller Ctr. It closes when the building is closed, and they don't seem to have any problem maintaining and guarding it, so I don't see why the Mall at 33rd or Penn Sta. doesn't want to be responsible for that one.
It's possible that passageway maintenance was a condition of the new building's zoning approval. I don't know for sure if that was the case, but it sounds possible.
I think the MTA should reconsider opening the passageway,
I certainly would use it.
Anybody out there listening?
I would use it. And I am listening.
If the MTA could figure out a way to move the tunnel inside the fare control zone, they probably would re-open it, since from a legal stanpoint, that would take the walkway out of the "public throughofare" status it had before and into the controlled zone, where courts have ruled the MTA has the right to control panhandlers and vagrants, which were a constant problem in the old set-up.
Connecting it up at Seventh Ave. wouldn't be a problem -- it could be directly linked into the uptown 1/9 platform. Getting into the fare control zone at Sixth Ave. is more problematic, because of the 33rd St. PATH station and the tunnel from there to 34th St. outside of the fare control zone (if the MTA and the Port Authority ever agree to free transfers between PATH and the regular subways at 33rd, 23rd, 14th and the new WTC transit hub, the fare control problem for the passageway vanishes).
My map shows a way to do that (in yellow). The best thing would still be a moving walkway. Then there would be nowhere at all for the homeless to hang around (which is still possible even within fare control, and would require constant survailance)
.....Many decades ago, the Brooklyn Bridge was a bustling nerve center of mass transit activity......trolley cars departed for various Brooklyn destinations from thier multi-looped terminal under the shadow of the cavernous Park Row BMT El terminal. Here BMT L trains rumbled and screeched onto the Bridge, bound for Brooklyn. For a straphanger, the rapid transit and trolley routes over the Bridge meant convenience and frequent service. But the El service was halted in around 1944, and the cavernous terminal at Park Row (as well as its counterpart at Sands St)was demolished....by 1950 the trolleys made thier last runs across the historic span, thier tracks uprooted and now the span was totally free of rail rapid transit....now, over 50 years later, you see hundreds of fume-belching cars and trucks gridlocked, trying to cross the span....think of the fuel wasted by all these vehicles while snarled in traffic trying to cross, also think of how swiftly people could be moved across the bridge if rapid transit was still available. Sometimes, what they call "progress" is really a giant step backwards.
CC,
The many trolleys that did traverse the Brooklyn Bridge were in mixed traffic
with the vehicles of the day. The Rapid was removed from the
Brooklyn Bridge with the removal of the EL. As a side note, remember
the movie "Tarzan In New York", when Tarzan dives off the BB, there's
a Brooklyn Bound PCC sitting in traffic. >GG<
;-) ~ Sparky
Trucks are not allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge (see Steve Andersons nycroads.com).
As for the BRT/BMT El Lines on BB: #11 Myrtle Avenue (Park Row To Metropolitan Ave), #12 Lexington Avenue (Park Row to Eastern Pky Or 111th Street) & #13 Fulton Street (Park Row To Grant Ave Or Lefforts Blvd).
Also see http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/malbone01.html for the most famous trip from Park Row To Brighton Beach Via Fulton El and Franklyn Shuttle that never made Brighton Beach November 1, 1918
Well all know what 'shake and awe' is supposed to mean with this 2nd Gulf War.
But, the first time I heard it, I heard a pun, on the Hebrew transliteration vis-a-vis 'ha-Shekinah'. The shake-and-awe is the Presence of God in the Holy-of-Holies on the Day of Atonement in the Final Temple in Jerusalem.
But then, I've been to Jerusalem, and done holy movements at the wall. I want a subway from Dung Gate running to Lions gate.
Mark,
Maybe you should be more careful when you mention holy movements and Dung in the same thought.
It's all good.
...and all off topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well all know what 'shake and awe' is supposed to mean
I thought it was referring to trains of D-Types crossing the Manhattan Bridge ;-) There! back on topic....
Allan,
Go learn some history, The Dung Gate is an actual location in Jerusalem. It is the location of the gate in the wall of the Old City where refuse was taken out to be sent to Gehenna to be burned. Incidentally, Gehenna is believed to be the "prototype" for the concept of hell. Another gate is known as the Water Gate-- REALLY. As for the Lions Gate, I can find no reference to it in my library.
>>> As for the Lions Gate, I can find no reference to it in my library. <<<
Try looking under "St. Stephen's Gate."
Tom
Mark, Let's keep it ON topic please ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It's 'Shock and Awe.'
There is a subway of sorts in Haifa, is there not? Some kind of combination subway/cogwheel railroad with several stations that goes up a steep grade?
Tel Aviv could certainly use subway service. One of the benefits of settling the dispute Israel has with the Palestinian Authority could be the freeing of money for the Dan Transport Company to design and build a subway.
Been to Haifa, not very interesting, nothwithstanding the Bahai temple there.
A Jerusalem subway is almost as good as a Venice subway (been there both). For Jerusalem, its all that soft-rock drilling thru priceless archeological remains, in contrast to what would be PATH-like in Venice (when you flush your Venice hotel room toilet, it's a good guess that it flushes directly into the canal under the bathroom window).
Considering that Jerusalem is about 20 minutes by expressway from Ben-Gurion, a Tel-Aviv subway would essentially be an extension of the Jerusalem one.
Now. How's that for getting back on-topic.
I thought 'Shake and Awe' were references to cross streets: like 'meet me at Shake St. and Awe Blvd. in an hour'. Ha!
Boy oh boy, you sure do have a lot of pent up questions !
I will need to take a week off just to give them all adequate time to digest & ponder replys.
Maybe you could make up a index with a link to each thread < grin >
At the BMT Court St station is a beautiful old mosaic for the Church Of The Holy Trinity.....at the BMT station at Pacific on the 4th Ave Line is a mosaic for the Church Of The Redeemer. Are there any other mosaics in other stations for adjacent houses of worship? These mosaics are priceless, and truly reflect the crafstmanship of the builders of the subways many decades ago.
I'm signing up for TransitChek. I see that the vouchers only come in denominations of $15,$30, $35, and $50. What happens if I use one but the value of the checks is more than my purchase? Do you get change in the form of a TransitChek? I ask this because I'm thinking of taking out the maximum of $100 per month, and then using it for the purchase of a 30-day unlimited metrocard and for bus tickets when I go places for a weekend. Does anyone know? Thanks.
---Brian
And also, how long are the vouchers good for before they expire?
The date is printed on the transit chek.
So what date? You get them all at the beginning of the quarter, right? So are they good for the next three months? One month?
---Brian
Depends on the chek. Printed at the top.
1) You don't get money back if you buy less then the face value of the Chek. So you might still have to use some cash when buying a mouthy pass. You said that you are going to get $100.00 then it most licky come in to $50.00 chek.
2) The checks are good for one year. I just looked at one my wife just got from hear job, it was dated 04/04.
Hope this helps.
Robert
The person would probably get $100 in the form of 2x$50 Cheks.
The customer would not get money back if they "buy less than the face value of the Chek." But I would think the clerk would put the change on a pay-per-ride Metrocard. Otherwise the clerk would be accused of keeping someone's money. And that happens too much these days anyway.
The dates on the Cheks are sometimes good for longer than an year. Sometimes as long as 15 months. Maybe with the new Cheks it's limited to a year.
I get transit checks from my job in Phila, they send a voucher for
$65.00 & $35.00, there is also a $1.00 processing fee deducted from your pay check. These are usually deducted the first pay check of the month.
Don't lose them, or if they are lost in the mail, they will not replace them, you would be out of luck.
I wouldn't commute with out them
And no change is given
The vouchers come in denominations of $15, $30, $35, and $50. I will be getting two (2) $35 checks and two (2) $15 checks. A 30-day unlimited metrocard will be $70 by the time I get my first TransitChek. That is two (2) $35 checks. I will use the extra $30 in checks to buy bus tickets and whatnot.
Thanks for the confirmation about the expiration date of one year ahead.
You're not supposed to be getting change when using a transit chek. If you use $30 and $35 to buy a $63 card, you might get $2 back. But I doubt if you could use a $35 chek to get a $3 card and get $32 back. For the most part, your "change" would come in the form of a Pay-per-ride card with that amount on it. That's the subway. I don't know about the buses that would take you somewhere for the weekend.
Well, once I start geting the vouchers, the card will cost $70. So that's two $35 vouchers. If I request an additional two $15 vouchers, to add up to $100, then I can use the $15 vouchers to buy tickets on NJT or whatever. I may just do that. But I still need to know how long the vouchers are good for before they expire.
---Brian
You have to look at the chek. I can't say when they'll expire because they have different dates. Ask someone at the office to look at their check. Usually they're good for a year.
Ah ha! A year. Great, thanks.
---Brian
But you have to look at the chek to see exactly when it will expire. If you don't use it, you'll lose it. My wife learned that the hard way.
Ok, I will.
You should be able to get the TransitChek MetroCard directly vs. the voucher.
Another option is the yearly TransitChek, It's a monthly unlimited.
The SYSTEM renews it monthly (you don't see this going on) & they send you a new card in 12 months, BUT if it gets stolen you'll loose some value for a week or two.
Mr t__:^)
From www.thetube.com today:
March 20 2003
Central Line back by Easter
London Underground hopes to reopen the whole of the Central Line by Easter, it announced today.
Steady progress is being made to modify and safety test all the Central Line trains, and the line will reopen in stages.
A limited service between Ealing Broadway and Marble Arch is expected to resume in the course of next week.
Customers will be notified as soon as an exact date and time can be confirmed.
Trains started running between Leytonstone and Bethnal Green from 14 March, which was the first phase of the programme to restore a full service to the whole line.
Two days later that service was extended further east to Woodford.
Tube managers emphasised that this was a limited local service and City bound customers were strongly advised to continue travelling by other alternative routes including the replacement bus services.
The same advice will apply when the limited local service starts running between Ealing Broadway and Marble Arch.
London Underground and Transport for London will continue to provide the alternative bus services that have been running since the line was closed.
LU Managing Director Paul Godier said: “We are restoring services in phases because we want to be sure that we can sustain a service with the limited number of trains available.
"As more trains are modified and safety tested more of the line will be reopened.
“But we hope to have a service to all Central Line destinations no later than the Easter break.
"Once again we thank our customers for their continued patience. Our engineers are working round the clock to complete this work as quickly as possible but we believe our customers would not want us to run a service until we were 100 per cent sure that it is safe.”
why was the central line closed to begin with?
Because of a derailment caused by defective bolts on a train. The entire fleet had to be tightened up.
When the MTA decided to scrap the Redbirds, the U S government should have bought out the entire fleet......removed the trucks, install caterpillar treads, gun turrets, etc. and our troops would have had really substantial combat vehicles to use in Saudi Arabia (or Times Square)!! Imagine a Redbird so-equipped, with "GO SUBWAY-GO U S A!!" emblazoned on the sides, and "BAGDAHD EXPRESS" on the front roller signs?? "SUBWAYS FOR VICTORY!!" Well, hey, the Redbirds ARE tanks.....(!!)
Agreed, but the windows needs to be removed, we don't want glass sharpnel all over the place.
RIGHT!
RIGHT!
Installing third rail from Kuwait to Baghdad over the rough terrain could be problematic.
Where did you buy the glue you're sniffing?
Maybe if it was a long long long term war they could drop them out of bombers and let the asbestos spread when the junk hits the streets of baghdad...
I bought the glue in K-Mart..was on sale! If the Redbirds were ever dropped as bombs over Bagdahd, the'd feel the shockwaves in Flatbush!
This drama,dating from 1967, is about two young punks terrorizing a group of captive passengers aboard an IRT WF Stienway.As the movie was actually filmed on location, using actual equipment, the movie is very authentic. The sounds of the WFs, (whining traction motors, hissing doors, chuckling compressors) really add authenticity to the film......there are a number of excellent nighttime shots along the Bronx 3rd Ave El, as well as a few stations scenes showing incadescent lighting, vintage change booths and station signs, and wooden turnstiles....I seem to recall it was available on VHS tape awhile back. I taped the movie back in the mid 80s from the old Channel 9 Million Dollar Movie.
The 3rd Ave el. was used as the actual location, even though the setting was on the Jerome el. and the ending station was Brook Ave on the Pelham Line, IIRC.
"The Incident" was actually filmed on a wooden mockup of a subway car.
Here is a link to a site with info and photos:
http://home.att.net/~tgsound/incident.html
Thanks, Larry....that's the site I was talking about...
You are aware that most of the dramatic elements were filmed on a set built from the blueprints of a Steinway car? I've mentioned this in a pervious thread about "NYC Subways in Movies".
The car looks authentic because the film crew was supplied with photos, schematics, etc., from the subway car manufacturer -- the St. Louis Car Company. I don't have the link, but there is a website that shows some of the correspondance between the film co. and St. Louis Car about building the mock-up for the movie.
This is a movie with an amazing cast, including a very young Martin Sheen (looking like Emilio Estevez with Charlie Sheen's hair) playing one of the hoods, and Jack Gilford and Thelma Ritter playing an elderly married couple (unfortunately, they didn't do it in a comedy).
The train sequences were filmed out of the system--the TA didn't like the plot.
Martin Sheen? That speakes volumes. As far as I'm concerned he's still a punk. To keep this on topic I wish I had been riding on that train because I would have taken great delight in picking him up by the seat of his pants and hauling him through the window.
You called martin Sheen a punk because he is A LIBERAL!!!!
>>> I would have taken great delight in picking him up by the seat of his pants and hauling him through the window. <<<
Why is it the old men who always want to resort to physical violence? :-)
Tom
Can't help it Old Tom; it's just the tiger in me.
Hey Fred, what if Sheen just happened to be a Sea Beach fan?:)
That dork has never heard of the Sea Beach and he's such a limousine liberal that it would beneath him to ride on the subway. Besides, he is too busy tilting at windmills with his socialist babble. I will say this, though, that I do like his son Charlie. If he can stay off the grape he could become a great actor.
Sheen also claims to be a lifelong Notre Dame fan.
Ed McMahon was also in it. Unfortunately, he never got to say, "Heee-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Johnny!"
But he had the same look on his face during the flm as he did when one of Johnny's jokes bombed.
I think I may recall seeing the closing scenes of this movie some time ago. Was this the movie in which it took an armed forces personnel to stop the guys?
Cops stormed the train when it stopped at "Grand Central." By then, Beau Bridges had singlehandedly beaten up both thugs with the cast his arm was in. The cops were initially going to seize the African American guy until one of the other passengers pointed out the two hoods. It took a while for the fact that the ordeal was over to sink in. Everyone left the train very slowly.
This is pretty obscure, but I thought that perhaps someone could help me with this. I recently found a photo on the Conrail Cyclopedia site of Penn Central S-motor #4715 (ex-NYC #115), taken - I suppose - at Croton-Harmon just after being repainted in PC colors. It really looks nice, but I am interested in more information. One, can anyone confirm that this is Croton, and two, does anyone have any idea what the date would be? I figure it's got to be between 1969 and 1976, but beyond that I have no idea. Thanks!
Frank Hicks
has to be after 1972 as there are M1's in picture
Why don't we call Peter Paul and Mary out of retirement to sing a new folk song, "Where Have All The Redbirds Gone"?
How many Lo-Vs had the door skirting installed for service on the Culver Shuttle back around 1960? Did any of these altered Lo-vs ever run on the Franlin Ave shuttle also?
You have to start looking around the site some more.... Like here for instance near the bottom of the page
I have always been fascinated with the Fort Hamilton Parkway stop on the Sea Beach during my trips to New York. I really see a diverse crowd getting on and off. When I was a kid the neighborhood was heavily Italian and Jewish. By the looks of the passengers now there has been a major change. Since I never get off at FHP can anyone shed some light as to what kind of neighborhood it now is, ethnic, socio-economic, safety, etc?
Alot of chinese people. Safe. Never any problems going on over there, but of course the areas closer to the tracks are crappier, and the walk on 62nd or 61st between Ft Hamiliton Pkway and 11th Ave (between the 2 exits) is horrible and run down looking. If you went based on those blocks, you would think its some sort of low class run down neighborhood. But as you go out into the higher numbered streets, it gets considerably nicer. The other way goes into Boro Park, and that is still heavily jewish.
Thank you Chris. I will explore the neighborhood the next time I get to New York. But where have all my fellow Dagos gone?
The stupid ones went to Staten Island. The smart ones went to New Jersey.
"The stupid ones went to Staten Island. The smart ones went to New Jersey."
But one made a early departure west to Aracdia.
Bill "Newkirk"
^^^"But one made a early departure west to Aracdia"^^^
LOL
8-) ~ Sparky
Smart move by my parents the way it turned out. For a time I had no interest in ever coming back to New York but as you and some of my other friends know I really enjoy looking forward to my journeys to the Big City. Hell I am a native New Yorker and I realize where my roots are and how great a city New York is. Besides, no matter how I slice or dice it my state does NOT have the Sea Beach, the Cyclone or Coney Island. So there.
Fred, I rode your Sea Beach line today. Although no (N)'s were running, the (W)'s were running in place of the (N). I parked my car on 64th St off of 17th Ave. Got on the Sea Beach 18th Ave station using the 17th Ave entrance. This was the first time I used this HEET only fare control. It was closed last time while workers were modernizing this entrance on 17th Ave. Otherwise, you would have to walk one long block to 18th Ave in who knows what kind of weather. So with a Metrocard, you're in ! The tile work was nice. Now if they can remove those cinder blocks from the overpasses and put in glass blocks to bring in natural daylight, this would improve things a lot.
BTW, there was an R-143 test train on the center track. The south motor was #8212. So much for my day on the Sea Beach.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like you had a hell of a day. Riding on the Sea Beach line what else would it be. However, get the N back on because that is the real Sea Beach.
>>> The smart ones went to New Jersey. <<<
???
:)
Well, compared to Staten Island, that is. At least in suburban New Jersey, taxes are lower, the roads are maintained better, the schools are better, and you can probably travel to Manhattan faster by public transportation than from most of Staten Island. Granted, the fares are higher, but what would you rather do? Travel on a commuter train doing 80 mph or sit on an express bus in bumper to bumper traffic on the BQE? Or ride a bus or R-44 to a slow boat to another possible subway connection?
That is true. I guess if I had to choose between NJ or SI, for the reasons you mentioned, NJ is probably the better choice. But I personally would live in CT or Westchester. Less sprawl, less crowded (probably because both are more expensive) and Metro-North is the most reliable commuter train system in our area (it runs so reliably, it's almost hard to believe it's part of the MTA).
My friend has a point there. I talked to Fishbowl 53 about things like this and he really has it wired. Deep down, though, I did get the feeling that he really has lost his affection for New York, though I could be wrong. As for you Marty, you make sure you have some free time when hit the city. We have some real railfanning to do.
Fred, I still like to VISIT New York (I went subway and bus riding in the Bronx and Queens yesterday, as a matter of fact), but LIVING there is another story. After 40 years, I got fed up with the "hustle and bustle", and luckily with my second career, I was afforded the opportunity to move to a more peaceful setting.
Well, compared to Staten Island, that is. At least in suburban New Jersey, taxes are lower, the roads are maintained better, the schools are better, and you can probably travel to Manhattan faster by public transportation than from most of Staten Island.
If you're a homeowner, Staten Island is a far better choice even with longer commuting times. Residential property taxes in Staten Island (and the rest of the city) are a terrific bargain, especially compared to the extortionate rates in most suburbs.
That sounds like my brother-in-law!
I shouldn't be asking, but which category does he fit?
Lon Guyland.
--Mark
The area around the tracks looks run down and a bit shaddy but the area is actually quite safe day or night. My grandma lived across the street from the tracks near 11th ave. She actually rented land along the tracks for a vegatble garden. The price was so cheap it probably cost the MTA more to keep track of the renters then it made in rent
The area west of the station is primarily Italian
The area east is occupied primarily by hasidic jews
There is also a rather large asian population in the area.
All in all much safer then it looks. If the area was not safe the station as configured would be down right dangerous
A recent ride in the area of the Fort Hamilton Pkwy station, I noticed that the chain link fence dividing the LIRR and NYCTA ROW's seem to have been pulled down by vandals or the TA maybe refencing the area.
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope it's the latter. My aunt Jenny and Uncle Tony used to live on 61st Street right off Fort Hamilton Parkway but for some reason we got off at 8th Avenue so I have never departed by the FHP exit. And as for your post on the relics of the BMT what I really hope is that they refurbish the red and green BMT Lines sign outside the station. I always loved looking at that, both as an adult and youngster.
Mostly Asian people get off toward the back of the train. Toward the front of the train (front going s/b), its mostly Italians still. Some Hispanics also get off at Fort Ham.
ENY, thanks. This is some of the info I was interested in knowing. I notice you didn't mention any Jews. There used to be Jewish people around that area. I wonder what happened to them? Probably moved into other neighborhoods.
There is more jews in the area then ever before. They are extremly religious and I believe they take thier own private bus service into the city
If you check the Service Changes section on the MTA web site you will notice that Shuttle buses will replace train service between Rockaway Parkway and Broadway Junction on the L Line the last weekend of March and the first weekend of April between 8PM Friday and 5 AM Monday.
It appears that work to complete the new alignment on the L Line will be taking place.
These Genral orders are the same lengths of the 2 that were cancelled in December because of the possible Transit Strike when the original change was to be made
Thank You
If you haven't gotten yer photos, get 'em now before it's too late !
Bill "Newkirk"
That is what the two G.O. are for. The first weekend is to make the conection and the other is to remove the track that were put up for the bypass to work in the conection.
Robert
"That is what the two G.O. are for. The first weekend is to make the conection and the other is to remove the track that were put up for the bypass to work in the conection"
So the new connection would be working by the second weekend or first ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I would hazard a guess that the new connection would have to be 'service ready' before they can remove the old sections...so it would be safe to say that sometime during the first week of April the new connection would be going into regular service.
The first train I think to run over the new connection will be around 5:00am Monday 3/21/03. I will look at the supplemt today for next week to see exectley witch one it will be. I would not want to be the crew of the first few train, just incase they did something wrong. I just can't thing of a train landing on Shutter Ave.
Robert
OUCH! That'd hurt, for sure!
Gimme a break. If you are a t/o worth his salt, you know damn well a test train will be ran before a passenger train ever is! Not to mention work trains will run over it even before the test train!
Just to clarify matters. Passenger service should begin (if all goes according to plan) about 5:00 am on March 31. The disconnecting of the old tracks and the connecting of the new tracks begin on Friday night, 3/28, at 8:00 pm. In related developments, Track J2A could be up and running by the end of the first week in April. Track Y4 will be out for several months.
Nat Ford (Chief Transportation Officer) says "No more photos!"
Would it be OK if we took an artist's pad and some charcoal crayons and a monopod seat down there? :)
That is correct...
I was going through the book New York Transit Memories by Harold Smith and on page 68 I came upon this picture of our favorite BRT streetcar, 4573 on Main Street Flushing of all places!! It was a fan trip in 1948!! I can't make out who's operating though.
My goodness! I thought you were gonna say the place had burned down or something. I was expecting the worst.
Sorry, but I couldn't believe it when I saw this picture.
You didn't read Dave Barraza's post about our "indoor voice?" "Cool Pic," or, "You'll Split Your Sides Over This Just Like the Last Convertible 4573 Did :-)"
Here's a tough question: what else about that picture is of railfan interest?
A hint - it has to do with the theater in the background.
>>> what else about that picture is of railfan interest? <<<
Does the movie Up In Central Park have any el scenes? I am certain the other feature, Another Part of the Forest does not have any el or subway scenes.
Tom
I'm surprised that link is showing up as angelfire doesn't allow remote loading and I put the jpg in the link instead of the webpage. If the picture doesn't show up go to the webpage at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/4573.html instead.
Stranger than truth, it did show up. Wonder of Wonders.
Yup, showed up fine for me too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Most likely it's Sparky grabbing the handle! :)
Well, it ain't Heypaul.:)
Does anyone know when Branford acquired the 4573?
Frank Hicks
According to the caption, right after that fan trip, but I'm gonna look for my Branford guide book which should state exactly when.
The Roger Sherman Trucking Company brought the trolley To Connecticut for $400 in October, 1948.
According to the December 1948 newsletter, 4573 arrived on
Nov 30 1948.
Ten days after the first R-10s went into service on the A.
I got my information from the 1952 BERA Illustrated Brochure. It seems to be the same style as the later Ride Down Memory Lane. Based on E J Quinby's comments on pg 2, I wonder if this 1952 publication might be the very first BERA guidebook.
Re 4573, the brochure goes on to state that NYC agreed to sell BERA the car for $300. plus $40. loading charges. In order to raise money for the car, three fan trips were run all over Brooklyn & Queens, on August 22nd, October 3rd, & October 10th, 1948. The proceeds, plus generous donations permitted quick ourchase of the car a week later. The Roger Sherman Trucking Company brought the car to Connecticut for $400. in October 1948.
Karl B.,
What's not published in the book and was another factor for transporting 4573
to East Haven, was that they also sponsored Saturday Night Gatherings at
Private Clubs to view "Blue Movies". Today you get all you want on Cable. >GG<
>>>"I wonder if this 1952 publication might be the very first BERA guidebook."<<<
IMO, it probably is. Have to speak to the Historian & see if we
have a copy in the Library. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
"... they also sponsored Saturday Night Gatherings at
Private Clubs to view "Blue Movies" ..."
That must have been a sight to see a bunch of senior individuals sitting around with just black socks on < grin >
If you have seen some of those early movies you'll understand what I'm talking about.
I was no senior, I was only 18 years old when I saw my first 8mm "black socks" movie.
It sure opened my eyes in a hurry.
>>> That must have been a sight to see a bunch of senior individuals sitting around with just black socks on <<<
You mean Argyle socks with a black bar across the eyes. :-)
Tom
Thanks, Sparky, I can't imagine that BERA would not have a copy of this book, but I suppose that anything is possible.
One of the trips went across the Brookly Bridge.
There's a shot of it in the new BRT book.
Beautiful picture. Any idea where the car is in downtown Flushing? It's a pity it's not like that anymore... :(
["Beautiful picture. Any idea where the car is in downtown Flushing? It's a pity it's not like that anymore..."]
All I know about the location is what's in the caption. And when you say "It's a pity it's not like that anymore" I do know you are talking about the location but at least the car (4573) is pretty much exactly like it is in the picture, at Branford.
>>> Any idea where the car is in downtown Flushing? <<<
Yes! It is right in front of the Loew's Prospect Theater. ( IIRC, the LIRR overcrossing of Main Street is just out of the picture on the left side, and the intersection visible on the right side of the picture is 40th Road.)
Tom
That was one of the first rt books I bought ... inexpensive & very broad in scope. At the time I was just getting introduced to SubTalk, so Dave & that book were esential parts of my education.
I was going through the book New York Transit Memories by Harold Smith and on page 68 I came upon this picture of our favorite BRT streetcar, 4573 on Main Street Flushing of all places!! It was a fan trip in 1948!! I can't make out who's operating though.
By the way, I will delete this from my angelfire account in a few days.
I've been trying to figure this out for a while, but how do the exterior door controls on the R4s, R7s, etc. work? I can tell from photos that there are handles on the ends of the cars, but I cannot figure out how conductors would operate the actual controls. Thanks for your help!
Those "handles" are the door controls.
Under each one in the "box" at the bottom of the handle is a switch that when spread apart will open the doors. The handle on each side controls the doors on that side.
At the top of the handle there is a switch that when pressed down will close the doors.
It would of course be eaiser if the Transit Museum would finish renovations so that you could go and see the control for yourself.
On the Museum:
Last I heard was that renovations would be finished by the summer but no reopeing date has been set.
OK, HChris, check out this picture of the handsome conductor at Branford. The R-9 is on the left. To open the doors there are trigger controls on the bottom. (under my hand) To close the doors you bop or punch down the top of it. (above my hand)
Note: The person behind me is poster Thurston Clarke, SubTalk handle "Mr.T". The car on the right is a Low-V. It also has external controls but I'm not sure how theirs works.
So do you depress the switch right underneath your pinky? Or is it something that is not visible in your picture?
The controls are underneath that box under my hand so you have to take your whole hand off the handle. And the top part which closes the door slides up and down over the top of the handle.
On the IRT Lo-V the open button is underneath the control box while the close button is on the front. On the Lo-V the handle is just that a handle.
Howdy ... I used to do it for a living on THOSE cars. If you were to go to the museum (once it's open) you'd actually be frustrated in trying to work it out because you need AIR and power to release the locks on the triggers underneath where you see those "coke bottle tops" ...
Underneath the BOTTOM under the handhold is a squarish hole underneath in which are mounted two sliders next to each other with literal gun-like triggers mounted on the end of each. One is an UNLOCK slider and the other is a door open actuate slider. When wearing your official TA gloves, it was acoomplished smoothly with a single movement of your hand.
You'd reach under, grab the trigger closer to the car bulkhead and pull it towards you. It'd slide about a half inch to unlock the doors, and then you'd grab the second trigger (all in one movement) which would then open the doors. To close up, you'd literally slap the cap on top which would release the sliders underneath back to their original positions.
The trigger slides however will be LOCKED unless there was air and you had the "operating position" enabled with a drum switch inside the car under the cab window AND the breakers were enabled to pass control to your position. The actuators are electrical which engage solenoids which in turn controlled the air to the doors.
Hope this helps ...
Hey Kev, isn't it the other way around with the triggers? The one to unlock the doors is further from the bulkhead and the one to open them is closer to the bulkhead.
Remember when I asked you if you moved both triggers simultaneously? IIRC you said something about a problem if you did.
When we discussed pulling "both at once" I was referring to pulling with the left hand AND the right hand at the same time - you wanted to give yourself a split second and not pull both at the same time. That's how they trained us, indicating that things could get funky if you were "trigger happy" ...
With GLOVES on, I'd forgotten that there were two separate triggers under there after all those years - when gloved, it was a single movement of the happy finger and I sincerely thought that there was just one under there until I ended up at Heypaul's place and saw reality there. But the one closest to the bulkhead was the latch trigger as best as I can remember - that had to be pulled first or the other one wouldn't move ...
OK, now I see what you're saying. Essentially you could still move both triggers at once on the same trigger box, right?
When I worked 1689's triggers, pulling on the one closer to the "bottle" released the door locks. Then I'd pull on the second one (the one closer to the bulkhead) to open the doors. Next time we meet at Shoreline, we can take a closer look together.
Amazing how I didn't notice which was which - just did the old fashioned handjive and that was it. You REALLY gotta do it gloved to see WHY it wasn't even an afterthought to me one way or the other. I didn't even pay attention to it this LAST time either. Shows ya what the ingrained rote of schoolcar does to ya. :)
OK, so next time bring your gloves with you. We can each wear one while working the triggers.:)
I brought 'em with me LAST time. Even offered you one. That'll learn ya to keep your hand exposed to twiddle knobs, boy. :)
And I thought I was good at remembering things.:) OK, next time I'll take you up on it. I'm going to bed.
"TRY it, you'll LIKE it." :)
So I TRIED it. Thought I was gonna die. Took two Alka-Seltzer.
I remember that commercial.
Better clarify further - I was referring to "both at once" as meaning front five cars and rear five cars at once. You opened front first, rear second with a split second between pulls ... just wanted to be sure I didn't cause a misunderstanding there ...
A silly question as stated, but here's what I mean:
There is a peak hour in the morning and evening with more trains than any other hour. Presumably any T/O and C/R on duty that day (except maybe the night shift) is working on a revenue train for one of those two hours.
But midday and evenings, most lines have about 50% to 60% of the service levels of the peak rush hour. I understand this is not because 40-50% of the crews are sitting in the crew rooms playing cards. They are either on their lunch hour or working.
So my question is: how does NYCT keep so many crews gainfully employed outside the rush doing things other than moving revenue trains? I can make 2 guesses:
1. Lunch hours are all scheduled for non-rush hours, which disproportionately reduces the staff available to move trains in the non-rush hours.
2. Revenue crews also do non-revenue moves at the edges of the rush hour.
Is there any other major way that NYCT uses its crews in non-rush hours? I don't quite see how items 1 and 2 above allow for everyone to be working, given the drastic cuts in service on some lines (e.g., the #5 goes from 12 tph in the rush to 6 tph in the non-rush, AND gets cut back to Bowling Green).
The shifts vary and work like this, accoring to my knowledge.
Note: This shifts assume crews assigned to an standard 8 hour route operating 24 hours a day. Some routes have as many as 9 to 10 hour picks.
12 AM to 8:30 AM
1 AM to 9:30 AM
5 AM to 1 PM
6 AM to 2 PM
7 AM to 3 PM
9 AM to 5:30 pm
11 am TO 7 pm
1 pm TO 9 pm
2 pm TO 10 pm
4 pm TO 12 Midnight
5 PM TO 1 am
So as you can see, the Overnighters stay on until just after rush hour is over, While other crew start midday and work through the PM rush. Everything is staggered.
Thank you. That's very interesting.
What I don't quite understand with the staggered shifts is how that results in having considerably more crews on duty between 4 PM and 6 PM (when they are all needed) than, say, at 1:30 PM, when trains are only running at half the frequency.
Simple, take the L train for instance:
41 mins. each way PLUS 5 min. layover.
Total approx minutes R/T: 90 mins (hypotheical)
Middays, L trains run 8 minute headways so 12 trains are needed with 14 crews (each crew upon reaching terminal sits out next train and takes the following train out, or goes on lunch. If crew is late reaching terminal, this may take up their lunch period.)
Rush Hours- 4 minute headways so 26 trains are needed with 28 crews on at one time. At PM rush, the day crews finishing jobs at 6 PM at Rockaway Parkway don't need to go out again (unless an extra is needed somewhere else), so T/O lays up train in yard and goes home. C/R signs out at tower and goes home. As the night progresses and more trains are laid up, the 1 to 9 and 2 to 10 jobs are finished, so all the trains and crews left are the 3 to 11, 4 to 12 and 5 to 1 people who are waiting for the overnighters to sign on.
Crew do not work "shifts" per se, but rather one of 3 "tours:" AMs, meaning any job beginning between 4 AM and 1159 AM; PMs, jobs starting between noon and 9:59 PM; and midnights, jobs starting between 10 PM and 3:59 AM.
The "work programs," which list what each job is supposed to do, vary...simply, some people spend more time moving trains/making more trips, others not quite as much. Some jobs have longer meal breaks or other breaks than others. In addition, some jobs require the T/O (and, in some instances the C/R as well) to either do a "putin" (prepare a train for service from a yard or other storage area), or a "layup" (move a train into a yard/storage area). A few jobs I've seen include both a putin and layup, others still 2 putins or 2 layups...it all varies, in numerous ways.
Crew do not work "shifts" per se, but rather one of 3 "tours:" AMs, meaning any job beginning between 4 AM and 1159 AM; PMs, jobs starting between noon and 9:59 PM; and midnights, jobs starting between 10 PM and 3:59 AM.
The "work programs," which list what each job is supposed to do, vary...simply, some people spend more time moving trains/making more trips, others not quite as much. Some jobs have longer meal breaks or other breaks than others. In addition, some jobs require the T/O (and, in some instances the C/R as well) to either do a "putin" (prepare a train for service from a yard or other storage area), or a "layup" (move a train into a yard/storage area). A few jobs I've seen include both a putin and layup, others still 2 putins or 2 layups...it all varies, in numerous ways.
Crew do not work "shifts" per se, but rather one of 3 "tours:" AMs, meaning any job beginning between 4 AM and 1159 AM; PMs, jobs starting between noon and 9:59 PM; and midnights, jobs starting between 10 PM and 3:59 AM.
The "work programs," which list what each job is supposed to do, vary...simply, some people spend more time moving trains/making more trips, others not quite as much. Some jobs have longer meal breaks or other breaks than others. In addition, some jobs require the T/O (and, in some instances the C/R as well) to either do a "putin" (prepare a train for service from a yard or other storage area), or a "layup" (move a train into a yard/storage area). A few jobs I've seen include both a putin and layup, others still 2 putins or 2 layups...it all varies, in numerous ways.
Crew do not work "shifts" per se, but rather one of 3 "tours:" AMs, meaning any job beginning between 4 AM and 1159 AM; PMs, jobs starting between noon and 9:59 PM; and midnights, jobs starting between 10 PM and 3:59 AM.
The "work programs," which list what each job is supposed to do, vary...simply, some people spend more time moving trains/making more trips, others not quite as much. Some jobs have longer meal breaks or other breaks than others. In addition, some jobs require the T/O (and, in some instances the C/R as well) to either do a "putin" (prepare a train for service from a yard or other storage area), or a "layup" (move a train into a yard/storage area). A few jobs I've seen include both a putin and layup, others still 2 putins or 2 layups...it all varies, in numerous ways.
Most train crews are honing their poker skills during off-peak. :)
Probably more like Dominoes, Chess and Checker skills.
Just some ideas I had for items that could be marketed by the MTA in conjunction the the 100th anniversary of the subway: Metal replicas of vintage subway signs,toy die-cast (or plastic) subway cars, commemorative tins made to look like LO-Vs (and maybe even a vintage change booth?),tie clips depicting vintage subway cars.......these are just a few ideas I am toying with......any others care to speculate as to what the MTA will be marketing next year? What would you like to see for sale during 2004?
Yo CC Local chill out with all the questions... I mean we would like to answer the questions but you posted over 100 questions within 48 36 hours, just slow down.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
my apologies.
It's kool, just slow down with all the questions, I was just like you when I first joined SubTalk 2 years ago, and BELIEVE ME, they got pretty pissed off, and so Im just passing down on what I learned 2 years ago. Have Fun!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
thanks for the tip.
That's silly, no one is pissed off. The questions are great. (However you may get more of a resposne to each individually if everyone isn't overloaded with too many at once).
But please, do not be afraid to ask questions.
Just not so many at one time. OK?
That is no silly, Its the truth, people did get pissed off because of my questions, I was just tryung 2 be a true railfan, but that was 2 years ago, its not like that now.
He's just someone who has 1001 questions about the subway and he has a chance to find out everything he wanted to know.
He came to the right place.:)
This is Very True.
Hmm, any idea of what wromng plaves he could've went to? I think I know what GP38 Chris may give to that query! :)
How abount a die cast model of the original turn of the century control house at Avenue H station on the Brighton Line. Truly a historical place that it would be a shame if it was not registered as an landmark. The original exterior of the house remains untouched to this day, it predates the opening of the current Brighton Line.
Not necessarily "for sale", but admission to, and tours of, the IRT City Hall station.
I still can't believe that the City Hall station isn't being restored for Oct 27, 2004. Hopefully they will at least have some kind of ceremony there.
I'd like a set of historic reproduction subway and El system maps, finishing up with the route network before 9/11, the truncated route network of a few days later, the new network on the anniversary date, an a hypothetical network once the proposed improvements are built.
Most of the maps you desire are already available in two "historic maps of New York City" map "books" that were put out by H&M productions, I believe. I still see volume II every now and then at Barnes & Noble.
--Mark
I'd love to see another Transit Museum auction and tag sale. During the last one that they had, I bid on, and won, the opportunity to spend the entire day with the crew of the Track Geometry Car. Things like that I'd love to see for the 100th birthday. Even auction off a couple of cab rides in a full width cab. Some outerwear with special limited edition 100th birthday logos, like Subway Grrl is producing (nice shirts by the way!)
--Mark
Thanks! Did you receive them? So glad you like them. My favorite is
the Black one with the large Subway image that's in the Centennial logo. I think that's a knockout! Simple, but says it!
Subway grrl
I saw a service advisory on the southbound side of the IRT Park Place station today. I checked with the MTA website and it had the same advisory. Here it is:
(2)
Brooklyn-bound trains run to South Ferry
then on the 4 from Wall to Nevins Sts
Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Tue to Fri, Mar 18 - Apr 11,
12:01 AM to 5 AM Sat and Mon, 12:01 AM to 6 AM Sun, Mar 22 - 24 and 29 - 31
Can someone explain to me how this routing is possible? If the 2 is running on the local track from Chambers and runs to South Ferry, how can it possibly then run on the 4 line to Brooklyn? Is there some trackage at South Ferry that connects to the tunnels leading to Boro Hall in Brooklyn? My understanding of the trackage at South Ferry is that the inner track takes trains back to Bowling Green and the outer track takes trains back to Rector Street, with a switch that permits service to Bowling Green.
If that's all there is, how is the above possible? Am I missing something?
The answer to the not so unusual routing of the #2 line G.O. can be found here, along with a track map at the bottom of the page.
The S/B #2 train enters South Ferry loop, switches from outer loop to inner then goes to N/B Bowling Green. After Bowling Green, the T/O takes the train to Wall Street, then relays (switches back) to the Brooklyn bound track of the #4 line (there is a crossover between Bowling Green and Wall Street.). After arriving at the downtown track of Bowling Green, the #2 train runs to Brooklyn.
That seems like a lot of switching to me. Why all that bother? Just announce that there is no west side service to Brooklyn and that passengers should take the 4/5 or A/C as an alternative.
Bowlng Green Tower (located at the south end of the Brooklyn bound island platform) controls all the switches. Since the #5 train does not run to Bowling Green at these times, it's not that difficult to maintain operation on the #2 train to the proper line-up needed.
This is late at night. There is no 5 and there is no C. The lines that do run have 20-minute headways. If the train can get through by throwing a few switches, why make people change trains over and over?
The weekend daytime variant on this GO does send the NB 2 up the East Side, but it sends the SB 5 down the West Side to compensate. The 5 returns to its normal route via South Ferry.
It would seem to me to be easier to have the (2) arrive at the SF platform, but then make a reverse move from there to the SB Lexington Track in the Bowling Green Station, and from there, and then continue directly into Brooklyn.
I guess my idea does require two reverse moves but with an additional MM to make the relay, it should actually be easier.
Elias
Also, the reverse move out of SF Loop A is not designed into the signal system.
The train will run via the outer loop tracks to the Bowling Green station where a T/O will get on the opposite end.. The train will continue to the Wall St Station where the train will change direction and use the switches to cross over to the downtown track into Bowling Green. From there it would a regular run into Brooklyn and switch back to the regular 7th Av line tracks at Nevins.
The new T/O (and C/R) will probably get on at Wall, not at Bowling Green. The train will only stop at Bowling Green on its second pass through. It will also bypass Rector and South Ferry.
The service advisory probably shouldn't mention South Ferry at all. After Chambers, the next stop is Wall on the 4, followed by Bowling Green, followed by Borough Hall (4 platform), followed by Nevins.
David wins. The correct routing is: Chambers on the local track, bypass Rector, South Ferry cross to inner loop, bypass Bowling Green n/b, stop at Wall St n/b, change crews, leave Wall St s/b, cross to downtown track, stop at Bowling Green s/b, Borough Hall, Nevins, cross to local, Atlantic.
David,
I think there would be a brief stop at Bowling green where the T/O would board. There are no crew facilities at Wall St but there is the dispatchers office/tower at Bowling Green. It makes more sense it it was done at BG.
Transit does not equal sense. Having worked this GO many times, the crew change happens at Wall St.
Point taken.
Sorry my mind was wandering of I would have remembered that it wouldn't make sense.
Very cool photos.
(And you did't even need photoshop like that R142 7 with MAGLEV technology at 33rd Street-Lowery).
#2 trains run normal to Chambers St.
It runs over the #1 line to South Ferry.
Switches over to the inner track.
Comes up the Lexington Ave line to Wall Street.
Changes ends
Switches to the s/b track going into Bowling Green
Runs over the #4 line into Brooklyn.
I would love to experience this on a redbird and catch the thrill of riding on normally Non-Revenue Trackage.
Well, I am assuming this is Chicago, but all I can say is that it is not New York. It doesn't have a railing along the edge, and I believe Chicago doesn't have safety side railings. Looks like an abandoned building to the left. And what in the world is that in the front of the stormdoor - a fire extinguisher?
So where is this one, and I have no date on it either, but I'm assuming the 60's? There's a station sign on the left, but I can't read it.
Looks like a station on the Red line, note overhead sign on right side of picture.
two details "Red Line" does not coexist with the paint scheme
the doors appear to be "flat" as opposed to curved tto match the car sides--6000-6199, but single headlight thus either 6131 up or modified
Yes, it's Chicago. This is a 6000-series Ravenswood train entering the State and Lake station on the Inner Loop track in the Loop. It predates 1969, when the introduction of Dan Ryan service reconfigured the Loop for two-way traffic. Prior to that time, all trains operated counter-clockwise on the Loop. It is either midday during the week or a Saturday, since rush hour Ravenswood trains used the Outer Loop. The red and white sign over the platform identifies the rush hour stop for Lake Street trains.
This is definitely State and Lake in the Loop, looking east. The view is markedly different now - there are no visible buildings east of Michigan in your photos and in a better photo you should be able to see the lake, while currently there are numerous skyrises blocking the view to the Lake.
Check out more photos here:
http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/state-lake.html
But that's not a 6000-series car, it's a 1-50 series:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/roster/1-50.html
The 1-50s, in that paint scheme, were used from 1959 to 1974, so your photo is almost certainly from the 1960s. They were used in other paint schemes into the 1980s, with the last passenger run in 1993.
"But that's not a 6000-series car, it's a 1-50 series:"
Out of sheer curiosity, how do you know it's a 1-50 and not a 6000?
Frank Hicks
I don't, I realized I was going nuts shortly after I posted that.
I will say it's Adams & Wabash as a first guess. I think the Lake & Wabash curve has a bit of a dip before the actual curve starts, and I don't see that in this picture. Let me know.
These aren't like the other "guess these photos" threads from a few days ago, where it was a game, just to guess. I haven't a clue where these are, they were in an old box of photo's my father had. So I'm just going to have to rely on what people tell me about them here. Whatever you guys say it may be, I'll take your word on it.
I would go along with George before me because I'm just a New Yorker who has been to Chicago a lot. George semms to know much more. I'll stay with the Myrtle Ave questions. At least I know them better.
So here's another two from Chicago. I've never been to Chicago, so any information is appreciated. It looks like an interesting system, even if these photos are about 40 years old.
Photo 1
Photo 2
No 2 is Fullerton or Belmont.
Photo 1 is of a 4000-series "plushie" train on the Inner Loop at Adams & Wabash station. I assume it's a Lake Street train, though I can't make out the sign. Yes, that is a fire extinguisher riding next to the end door, handy for those troublesome track fires.
Photo 2 is of a southbound Englewood-Howard "A" train at Belmont station on the North Side "L", taken from the overhead transfer bridge. I would guess that all three of the pictures we've seen date from the same period. These were the glory years of the 6000s on the North-South "L"-Subway route.
Photo 2 is definitely Belmont, from the overhead transfer, facing north. This station looks about the same now as it did then, but it will be changing significantly over the next 5 years or so as it gets a massive overhaul as part of the Ravenswood Branch platform extension project. The platforms will be widened, moved further north, and lengthened to accommodate 8-car trains.
I will defer to Mr. Foelschow on Photo 1; I can't place those buildings, but it appears to be Wabash and that station style wouldn't fit the other two stations on Wabash.
Re Photo 1: The building directly behind the train is the CNA Insurance building at Jackson and Wabash, where I worked on the fifth floor from 1967 to 1969, with a fine view of the "L". I was puzzled by the marker lights on the train. Both appear to be white, though their positions are different. I believe Lake at that time was green and white; perhaps the photo's green faded to white. Also, the platform at Adams & Wabash was very long, stretching from just south of Monroe Street to just north of Jackson. Of course, the platform on the opposite track was North Shore Line's principal Loop stop.
George Foelschow wrote:
> Photo 2 is of a southbound Englewood-Howard "A" train
> at Belmont station on the North Side "L", taken from
> the overhead transfer bridge. I would guess that all
> three of the pictures we've seen date from the same
> period. These were the glory years of the 6000s on
> the North-South "L"-Subway route.
To pin the date down a bit, it was before the completion of the repainting of the 6000 fleet in their later mint green and alpine white scheme, but after (as far as I can tell) the dismantling of the North Shore's precariously narrow debarkation platform on the west side of the structure; say, some time between 1963 and 1973.
I feel age creepin' up on me when I realize that I still think of the now-long-gone 6000s as the "new" cars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
When you get to Chicago, you'll learn that they don't have an el; they have an L.
I remembered that right after I posted the title. I always hate when people call the NY's els "L's", so I should have called Chicago's "L".
Since the beloved token goes into retirement as of 5/4, I was cuirous how the Station Agents are going to handle requests for a single ride?
Are they going to direct people to the MVM's which will make for lines longer than the station itself or pop a blank card into the machine in the booth to create a single fare? Is the TA going to have single fare cards already made up that won't expire within 2 hours until they are swiped in the turnstile/farebox?
The TA should do what Chicago did. Create single fare cards and sell them in packs of ten:
https://www8.interaccess.com/cgi-bin/transitchicago/cta/store/order.html?action=step1
Scroll down about half way down that page to see the description of the single fare pass.
Anyone have any insight as we get closer to 5/4?
The TA should do what Chicago did. Create single fare cards and sell them in packs of ten
WHy in the world would people want to buy a pack of ten cards when you can buy a single card for 10 dollars which gives you five rides plus a free ride?
Please don't suggest the 10-pak by sold at a discount. That would negate what the TA has been trying to do in promoting its MetroCards and discount policies.
(Please don't suggest the 10-pak by sold at a discount.)
No harm in his suggesting it. It obviously won't happen, since the NYCT pricing scheme already offers discounts when you buy 6 or more rides on a single card.
Paul,
You are forgetting those people who either won't or can't put together the amount needed for a regular Metrocard.
I still ask - how is the TA going to handle the request for a single ride. They can't force someone to buy a 6 ride card if they only need one ride.
I'm saying if you can buy a 10-pack ($20) you can certainly buy a single-card with 6 rides ($10). What's the point in selling a pack of cards, where one will do?
I assume they will sell single-fare MetroCards.
Do current single ride paper cards allow you to transfer to the bus?
MTA site has almost no info on single ride cards.
I know that bus transfers don't let you transfer to the subway.
Now that they don't have to promote Metrocards, I think it's time to make them transferable between bus and subway.
The current single ride cards are just that a single ride. The same as if you used a token. If you use it on a bus (for the single ride) then you will get a transfer to another bus. There is no bus to subway transfer on the single ride card.
Just as I thought...
The subway to bus(vice-versa) transfer was a big selling point for Metrocard Gold. Now that they are abolishing the token, they should make bus transfers usable on the subway, and make single ride paper cards usable for bus/subway transfers.
Riders shouldn't be forced to buy more than one fare just to get free transfers. It's something I hadn't seen in other transit systems. I've seen systems that give you discounts by buying in bulk(like 10 rides) or buying unlimited rides but, come on. Differenciate a single ride and a two-ride ticket? Sounds unfair to me.
But then again, we are dealing with a transit system that will put a 75% increase on the one day pass. This will totally change the way I buy my Metrocards. (I'm self employed, I don't ride transit everyday. But when I do, chances are I would use it more than three times)
And yes, I welcome the fact that paying 5 rides will give you one for free. I just think that paper cards should get the same values as the plastic ones since the price would be the same when we buy less than 5 rides.
>>> Riders shouldn't be forced to buy more than one fare just to get free transfers. It's something I hadn't seen in other transit systems. <<<
There are transit systems (buses) in So. California that provide no free or discount transfers but sell day passes for 2-1/2 fares at the farebox.
Tom
There are transit systems (buses) in So. California that provide no free or discount transfers but sell day passes for 2-1/2 fares at the farebox.
Same as in some UK cities:
Birmingham (stage 1 to stages 4-13): £1 (=$1.50)
Birmingham (Day): £2.50 (=$3.75)
Leicester (zone 5 to zone 1): £1 (=$1.50)
Leicester (Day): £2.50 (=$3.75)
"Anyone have any insight as we get closer to 5/4?"
As soon as we clerks hear, we'll tell you!
>>> Create single fare cards and sell them in packs of ten: <<<
That is certainly no help for someone who wants to buy a single fare.
Tom
When station agents stop selling tokens and with MVM's nearby, will their positions change as station imformation and customer assistance agent. No more selling tokens and Metrocards, nothing ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The MTA is most likely going to try to direct all single ride sales to MVM's. This will encourage those who really could but more then one ride in advance to do so. It will be interesting.
What percentage of token purchaces are currently 1 ride?
The MTA is in dire need to extend mail and ride subscription cards to the general population. That would remove a tremendous load off the MVM's and Booths.
The current program refills when card hit $7.50 remaining value and only adds $15.
The E-Zpass programs refill amount is equal to your average monthly useage which reduces the amount of refil transactions processed
The Mail 'n Ride Metro Card System is the same as E-Z Pass, it is
adjusted to your level of usage in a month. My brides refills at
$7.50, but for $35. Used to be $25, but didn't several months,
so it was adjusted. It still discounts 10% for every refill over
$15. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I don't think that's the plan for May 4, but I'm sure it will happen within a few years.
NYCT will send memos to the station agents on how to handle this prior to May 4th.
What is the website for viewing the Flushing line in the 33rd St. area live?
Sorry, don't know how to link...
http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=57&server=RS1&address=Queens+Blvd+@+36+Street#
Just type in the tag "(a href="http://website) Hyperlink Text Here (/a)", replacing the parenthesis with opening and closing brackets. Make sure you have the http:// and leave no spaces for the text within the brackets.
I guess that's Pete's way of saying "Thank You" for the website!
Touche!
Peace,
ANDEE
Umm, just noticed that's not correct. You're missing something. I'll leave it up to you to figure it out.
Peace,
ANDEE
1) What is the capacity of the "tankers" that CONRAIL (or any other freight co.) pulls? I think there are at least two different sizes. What can they carry in the tanks?
2) What is the purpose of the rectangular "caged-in" freight cars pulled by NS or CONRAIL? They are painted yellow around the rims and have tightly woven steel in segments on the sides of the car to serve as walls. I saw a long trainset involving these cars on the RVL past Somerville station.
Tank car capacity varies widely. Try reading the stencling on the side.
The car you describe is an Autorack. It carries either 2 or 3 levels of vehicles.
(What is the capacity of the "tankers" that CONRAIL (or any other freight co.) pulls?)
Easy enough to estimate.
Volume of a cylinder is length x (diameter squared) x (pi/4)
7.5 gallons to a cubic foot.
But tankers have rounded edges, and I estimate the tankers to be 40ft long and a 10 ft. diameter? This gives an estimate of 23,300 gallons, roughly less than the tank capacity of a 767. It's hard to read the imprints on the sides of the cars because they're either blurry, or too far away (i.e. viewing a freight car from the N.J. Turnpike).
>>> I estimate the tankers to be 40ft long and a 10 ft. diameter <<<
That sounds like a pretty small tank car. 40' is the length of a city bus. Most tankers are longer than that.
Tom
There are many sizes and shapes of tank cars. The older tanks with rivited sides had an expansion dome on top. Some had two or three domes on top and were divided into two or three separate tanks on the inside, and could cary perhaps different grades of gasoline or oils.
Modern tank cars are all welded and come in a variety of sizes and shapes, some are insulated, others are heated (or have heating coils that re used prior to unloading whatever goop they are transporting.) Some cary liquids others gasses, some load at the top and unload at the bottom, others do both from either the top or the bottom.
They carry all kinds of commodities from oil to water, from sea water to molasses, wine, ketchup, you name it. Tankers generally carry commodities in one direction only and deadhead back empty, since there would not be a similar comodity going in the opposite direction. There is a list of over several hundred commodities shipped by takn car.
The New Yorker, a few weeks ago had an interesting article about tank trucks, and how there are now fancy steam cleaning facilities that can completely clean and certify as clean the insides of the tank so that it may now be used for a different commodity headed to a new destination. I am certain that there must be similar facilities for railcars. Still, it remains more likely that railcars will remain in captive service, since they are usally owned by the shipper rather than by the railroad, and they want their cars back as soon as possible, and need not worry about shipping a different commodity.
BNSF (well the BN in those days) brought a "safety train" to town so that fire and ems personel might have a look at operations and safety proceedures around the railroad. They even had a special demonstration tank car that you could go inside of (through the top hatch ~ hard hat required) where they had displays of the varisous kinds of tank cars and of their construction and of their weaknesses.
There is even a really neat fill guage to tell how much product is in your car. It consists of a tube sealed against the product but with a float wrapped around it that had magnets inside of it. The measure rod was inside of the tube, and coupled magnetically to the float. As product entered the car the float raised the rod. When the car was full, the crewman (whoever he or she worked for, simply pushed the rod back down into its tube, breaking the magnetic coupling to the float, which of course remained at the top of the product load. If anyone wanted to see how much product was in the car, they simpy raised the rod until it caught on to the float again.
Elias
They carry all kinds of commodities from oil to water, from sea water to molasses, wine, ketchup, you name it.
Somehow, I suspect that the wine carried by tank car is more likely to be Thunderbird or Boone's Farm, than Chateau Lafite '29 ...
If jets use kerosene, does it have more power than burning diesel? What is the ratio of power produced from burning diesel vs. burning gasoline?
What is the consumption rate of fuel of a general GP40 or F40 locomotive? (and others) (could also be mpg and fuel efficiency)
(If jets use kerosene, does it have more power than burning diesel?)
Diesel, kerosene, and #2 heating oil are fairly similar in their chemical properties. Of course, diesel costs more for the general public becuase the gasoline tax is assessed on it. (You could burn kerosene or #2 heating oil in your diesel car, but you could also go to jail for tax evasion for doing it).
Gasoline is more volatile than the above; if you drop a lit match into gasoline bad things will happen. If you drop it into diesel or kerosene, the match goes out. I believe but am not sure that gasoline has slightly more BTU's per pound of fuel, but I doubt it's much more. All the hydrocarbons are roughly comparable.
Gasoline is more volatile than the above; if you drop a lit match into gasoline bad things will happen. If you drop it into diesel or kerosene, the match goes out. I believe but am not sure that gasoline has slightly more BTU's per pound of fuel, but I doubt it's much more. All the hydrocarbons are roughly comparable.
Dunno, just over a year and a half ago we got a pretty good demonstration as to what burning kerosene, in the form of jet fuel, can do ...
I didn't say kerosene doesn't burn, and can't produce a deadly fire. I just said it's less volatile than gasoline, which is true despite its destructive potential. Once it's hot enough it burns very well, as we all know.
"Gasoline is more volatile than the above; if you drop a lit match into gasoline bad things will happen. If you drop it into diesel or kerosene, the match goes out. I believe but am not sure that gasoline has slightly more BTU's per pound of fuel, but I doubt it's much more. All the hydrocarbons are roughly comparable."
"Dunno, just over a year and a half ago we got a pretty good demonstration as to what burning kerosene, in the form of jet fuel, can do ..."
In both cases, it isn't the liquid fuel that burns, it's the vapor. If you light a match and quickly stick it into a pool of gasoline, it will extinguish itself (DO NOT TRY THIS PLEASE). Gasoline is more volatile, which means it vaporizes more eadily. The vapor, supplied with oxygen in the air, burns readily.
Kerosene has longer carbon chains, and does not vaporize as easily. In order to make a jet engine run, the fuel pump feeds kerosene from the fuel tank into an atomizer, which sprays it as a fine mist, into the combustion chamber. There it mixes with air and burns.
During an airliner accident, the vapor catches fire, and the reaining fuel feeds the fire by slowly vaporizing, layer by layer.
I am 16% flame-burned from a gas fire many, many years ago, and I can tell you, it was the fumes that burned after being ignited by a spark from a kerosene heater.
I'm glad I never had to go through that. I'm sorry it happened to you.
I recall (true story!) a tanker truck driver hauling gasoline to filling stations who had just emptied the truck. For some reason he saw the need to peer into the tanker's compartments. Crouching on the roof, he couldn't see much, because the open hatch let very little light in, so he "flicked" his Bic lighter to get a better look.
The resulting explosion blew him into the air - and he lived to tell about it.
The ltimate ignoramus almost won the Darwin Award...
>>> The ltimate ignoramus almost won the Darwin Award <<<
I resent that! Many years ago, on a night that was both dark and drunk, I and a friend were driving in my ‘37 Mercedes when it sputtered and stopped running. There was no fuel gage, but we suspected an absence of fuel to be the problem. That model had the gasoline tank mounted under the hood just in front of the windshield. The filler opening was right on top of the tank without any filler pipe. First we sniffed at the opening, but we did not notice any more gasoline smell than there normally was in the interior of the car. Next we rocked the car from side to side and listened to hear liquid sloshing, but heard nothing. Then we made a torch out of rolled newspaper to hold high above to get enough light to see into the gas tank. That didn't work well either, so one of us brought the torch closer, and suddenly a ring of blue flame ignited around the rim of the open gas tank. We quickly removed the torch, smothered the fire, and decided the best bet was to procure additional gasoline, add it, and continue troubleshooting from that point.
Tom
The best solution was obvious - don't drive around with an open liquor bottle so the night air gets so drunk and compels you to play with gasoline like that.
:0)
When a plane crashes, much of it's fuel is atomized by the impact, this mist is quite explosive.
I looked on a very helpful website about all this and IIRC, one gallon of gas can produce 125,000 BTU. It depends on how much gas is present in a concentrated area when lighting a match. If you have a bucket full to the rim with gasoline and throw a lighted match into it, the gasoline probably will act as water and put the match out. A catastrophic event occurs when you have about 1/2 gallon in the bucket and you swish it around the bucket and throw a lighted match in. (Gasoline is not a good explosive)
Diesel comparatively is much efficient to use, (so are diesel motors) than gas and gasoline motors. A V6 or V8 tractor trailer (18 wheels) has a GVWR of 80,000, while a V6 or V8 SUV has a GVWR of much less (around 4800 to 6000), but I was wondering about kerosene. All three (gas, diesel, kerosene) come from a black liquid called petroleum, with the difference only in the amount of carbon and hydrogen atom links. An internal combustion engine does the rest. My main point was to come across if kerosene had more power than diesel because there is a significant difference in power in burning diesel and gas.
Now I know why airplanes need a very high octane rating of gas. Does kerosene have a quality rating likewise unto gas?
At HowStuffWorks.com (I don't know if this is the domain), I had many questions answered about these fuels and all other topics related to fuel (gas gauge, how an internal combustion engine works, etc.)
To repeat, kerosene is almost identical to diesel fuel in its properties.
The other questions I can't answer.
>>> Now I know why airplanes need a very high octane rating of gas <<<
That is for reciprocating internal combustion engines. The higher the octane, the less likely to have "knocking" from poorly timed explosions. Jet engines do not have that problem.
Tom
Living out in the country where there are no natural gas lines, I use pure kerosene in my oil furnace; nowadays it's dyed so people won't use it as a vehicular fuel. Undyed (#1) kerosene is needed for space heaters--the dyed stuff can't be used. Around here, when we buy clear kerosene, we have to sign a book attesting that we're using it for heating--that's a state law, I think.
The reason for pure kerosene rather than home heating oil (or a mix, which is also possible--it all comes off the same delivery truck) is that my oil tank is outdoors and #2 heating oil (diesel) gels when the temperature drops to -10 degrees Fahrenheit. That's why even some diesel autos have problems or tractor-trailers are left running for long periods.
We usually go to -35 or -40 F several times during the winter and waiting for a service technician can be a problem.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Living out in the country where there are no natural gas lines
Heck, I live in a fully suburbanized part of Suffolk County, not "country" by any means, and we don't have natural gas lines.
I live in a fully suburbanized part of Suffolk County, not "country" by any means,
You *must* REALLY live out in the sticks!
We even have natural gas out here in Richardton North Dakota (pop 600).. and towns are 6 to 25 miles apart.
But we burn coal from Montana (although there is a mine closer to us~ the Montana coal has way more BTUs per ton.)
Elias
When I built the house, went all electric because of no natural gas lines. No LP gas for me...any leaks goe downstairs and get ignited by the water heater or oil burner. Saw a house blow up once. Gimme
'squeeze'......STERNO!!! CI Peter
>>> Around here, when we buy clear kerosene, we have to sign a book attesting that we're using it for heating <<<
When I lived in Germany I had a ration book for heating oil, the amount I was allowed to buy without paying highway taxes was determined by the area I had to heat.
Tom
>>> I use pure kerosene in my oil furnace; nowadays it's dyed so people won't use it as a vehicular fuel. Undyed (#1) kerosene is needed for space heaters--the dyed stuff can't be used. <<<
How does dying the fuel prevent it from being used in vehicles or space heaters? I remember buying blue dyed Sunoco gasoline for my automobile when I lived in the mid-west.
Tom
"How does dying the fuel prevent it from being used in vehicles or space heaters?"
Recognition, mostly. It's to tell you "hey, you bought the wrong stuff for this application."
"I remember buying blue dyed Sunoco gasoline for my automobile when I lived in the mid-west."
Interesting. Aviation gas (100 octane, very volatile) has a light blue tint to it.
I do believe that Sunoco was being cute with its blue gasoline.
Dyed fuel is not lawful for highway use, and if they catch you at it there will be big fines.
So all OTR fuels are supposed to be dyed, although I do remember buying clear kerosene in NY for use as a typewash when I had a printing press.
Elias
>>> I do believe that Sunoco was being cute with its blue gasoline. <<<
Of course they were. It was a marketing ploy to differentiate their brand from all the other gasolines. The advertising was along the lines of "Get the full power of the Sunoco blue gasoline."
>>> Dyed fuel is not lawful for highway use <<<
Is that state or federal law? How long has it been in effect? The blue Sonoco gasoline was in the '50s.
Tom
Motor fuel is nearly clear, whereas heating or off road fuel is dyed for tax purposes. When we fuel our E8 diesels with highway diesel, we are given a form to file with the IRS to get a refund on the fuel tax since our locomotives do not use the highway system.
>>> Motor fuel is nearly clear, whereas heating or off road fuel is dyed for tax purposes. <<<
My question was when did dying of fuel oil start? My father used to deliver fuel oil for home heating in New York. I rode with him as a child, and the fuel oil was not dyed in 1950, but Sunoco gasoline was dyed.
Tom
I think it was sometime in the last 20 years.
I don't think it was more than ten years ago that dyed fuel became the usual form. I recall that when I bought a kerosene-fueled space heater during the 1998 ice storm, I couldn't tap my furnace tank but had to go buy clear kerosene at a local general-store-with-gas. Instructions for the heater were very clear about it, I remember.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
E8's? Who're you with?
Sunoco is the only gas station Co. that I know that features the Ultra 94 octane gasoline as advertised on its gas trucks and on various places on the gas station itself. Is one octane a very big difference in quality? Also, what is the primary reason higher octane fuels are "better" (but has the same efficiency) to use for automobiles?
Diesel does have a quality rating but it is not "octane". I read it once at an Exxon station but I don't recall now. What is the name and what is the lowest/highest recommended level and the average?
Diesel Fuel
The following information was posted to the VW-DIESEL mailing list by list member Brian Kmetz of MBCA Central Illinois in Chicago. where he works as a diesel fuel tester:
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In the USA, all diesel fuel must meet the specifications set forth by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). In Canada it is the Canadian General Standards Board. They have web pages at www.astm.org and www.pwgsc.gc.ca. One can order documents for a fee. Diesel fuels are covered in documents ASTM D-975 and CGSB 3.6-M90 and 3.517-93. Their documents cannot be previewed. The CGSB lists the ASTM as a reference, they are that close. All the specifications for cetane, pour points, viscosity, flash point, BTU content, etc., are in these documents.
The most common question, Cetane? What is cetane? Cetane is to diesel fuel what octane is to gasoline. It is a measure of the fuel's ignition quality and performance. Cetane is actually a hydrocarbon chain, its real name is 1-hexadecane. It is written as C16H34, or a chain of 16 carbon atoms with 34 hydrogen atoms attached. All HC chains are also referred to as paraffins. Cetane is a hydrocarbon molecule that ignites very easily under compression, so it was assigned a rating of 100. All the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel are indexed to cetane as to how well they ignite under compression. There is very little actual cetane in diesel fuel.
Most of the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel have similar ignition characteristics as cetane. Cetane is abbreviated as CN. A very loose way to think about cetane is if the fuel has a CN of 45, then the fuel will ignite 45% as well as 100% cetane. Diesel engines run just fine with a CN between 45 to 50. There is no performance or emission advantage to keep raising the CN past 50. After that point the fuel's performance hits a plateau.
Diesel at the pump can be found in two CN ranges: 40-46 for regular diesel, and 45-50 for premium. The minimum CN at the pump is 'suppose' to be 45. The legal minimum cetane rating for #1 and #2 diesel is 40. Most diesel fuel leaves the refinery with a CN of around 42. The CN rating depends on the crude oil the fuel was refined from. It varies so much from tanker to tanker that a consistent CN rating is almost impossible. Distilling diesel is a crude process compared with making gasoline. Gasoline is more of a manufactured product with tighter standards so the octane rating is very consistent. So the CN rating at the pump can be anywhere from 42-46. That's why there is almost never a sticker on a diesel fuel pump for CN.
Premium diesel has additives to improve CN & lubricity, detergents to clean the fuel injectors and minimize carbon deposits, water dispersant, and other additives depending on geographical and seasonal needs. More biocides added in the south in summer, more anti-jell added in the north in winter. Most retailers who sell premium diesel will have little brochures called POPs (Point of Purchase) at the counter explaining what's in their fuel. Please don't ask the poor clerk behind the counter any technical questions after reading this post, all they know how to do is sell you beer, milk, cigarettes, lottery tickets, and take your money.
Texaco and Amoco are two big names who sell premium diesel in limited markets. Amoco mostly sells its Premier to specialized industrial and agricultural markets. I cannot get either in my area. Most fuel retailers buy additives or buy treated fuel. In the northern plain states, Koch is a well known marketer of premium diesel.
Because there are no legal standards for premium diesel yet, it is very hard to know if you are buying the good stuff. An ASTM task force has drafted standards for premium diesel. When the new specifications are accepted, information will have to be posted on the fuel pump. Retailers will no longer be allowed to label cheap blended diesel as 'premium'. They will have separate pumps with clear labels on both informing the customer what in being sold. The marketing and labeling will the same as with regular and premium gasoline. Retailers selling the real thing use this system now. Enforcement of all fuel standards is done on the state level in the USA.
Diesel fuel is an international commodity for industry with no brand name recognition. Because of this it's made as cheap as possible and is transported through most of North America by pipeline. At the area terminal you will see tankers with every oil company logo ever imagined all filling up with the same fuel. So don't get too picky about where you fill up. Shop for price from a large volume retailer so you have the freshest fuel.
The reformulation of diesel fuel in North America is due an international effort for lower emissions. Cleaner diesel emission laws are on the way. Diesel fuel is going to be reformulated into a cleaner fuel in general. Without getting too technical (this is very simplified and over generalized), diesel fuel for the most part is made up of two different hydrocarbon families: paraffin's and aromatics. The paraffin's have a naturally high cetane index, burn clean, but cause that annoying jell problem in winter. The aromatics have a naturally high lubricity, low cetane index, and cause a lot of diesel emissions and soot. Reformulated diesel will have a higher paraffin content, higher cetane number, and a much lower aromatic and sulfur content. It will also be more prone to jelling and have a lower lubricity. Big oil is working on improved additives.
The reason nothing has happened yet is because of infighting in the EPA on its new Tier II Emissions standards for gasoline and diesel. Ultra-clean technology for gasoline and diesel engines is almost ready to go but the refiners have to lower the sulfur level drastically in both fuels. Something should be formally set by the EPA by year 2000, with oil and auto industries whining and slowly complying shortly after.
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1) What is jelling?
2) Where does NJT go for filling up?
Railfan Pete asked:
1) What is jelling? Jelling is what happens at low temprature
2) Where does NJT go for filling up? I don't know but large volume users would put their fuel supply contracts out for bid.
Railfan Pete asked:
1) What is jelling? Jelling is what happens at low temprature
When it gets cold, diesel fuel changes from a viscous liquid to a gel.
1) Does NJT or Metro-North (or any other freight Co.) need to worry about jelling?
2) What is the fuel resource of petroleum (where these 3 fuels are derivatives from) remaining on the earth today? I read from www.howstuffworks.com that the U.S. consumes about 130 billion gallons of fuel annually. (I'm not sure if this was petroleum or gasoline)
2b) Can the earth sustain the needs for petroleum much longer?
"1) What is jelling? "
You ever see that jelly stuff around your canned ham.
Something like that.
It doesn't go through fuel pumps very well.
Trucks might fuel up somewhere south, drive up here, and discover that they have fuel problems.
When I worked in a High School on Long Island they had banks of fuel heaters in the boiler room. Those, I was told was from the days when they burned (or tried to burn) Bunker Fuel. The switched to Oil #2 and had no more problems, though if they lived here in North Dakota, and had out door tanks, they would have to gone to #1 oil, or kept the heaters working.
My GG-1s doesn't worry about these issues! (just to stay on topic)
Elias
The red dye is so strong that any addition of the fuel to taxed fuels in tanks leads to a conviction and fine upon road safety inspections.
At some points, red K1 costs more than winterised D1/D2. CI Peter
Fuel tech 101: heavier fuels have higher BTU. Several years ago, my driveway in New Jersey was frozen in by ice. Every time I de-iced it with calcium/sodium chloride mix, Agway never showed up in time. The furnace had run out of fuel during a 36 hour blizzard that dumped four feet of snow and took just as long to run my Gravely with a snowblower to clear. What I was told to do is to go to a truck stop and get deisel. IF you maintain your system, diesel is good. If you don't, diesel loosens all the crud in the bottom of your tank and clogs everything. What diesel has that K1/F1/2 doesn't have is an antifungus agent and an anti gel. I ran that HS Tarms multifuel furnance on D1 for the winter hauling 440 gallons in my company service car...one five gallon container cracked in the back seat!
K1 is dyed red for tax purposes...truckers mix with D1 for winterising
without paying road taxes. Some stations charge the same for the fuel...when you need it, time lags and pipes freeze. Heard about the problems with space heaters...I know someone who has had an allergic reaction to red K1...it all stinks even when I have catalyctic grids
over the 'chimneys' (try finding them now!)
Spring is here...mom payed 2.01 a gallon K1. For once, the contract rate for #1 payed off at 1.27 but the truck only had 121 gallons of fuel. The HS Tarms multifuel furnace is set to burn oil/wood/coal.
Burns all the garbage saving pickup costs: cereal boxes, soda bottles, newspaper, everything. I don't have a fireplace to burn air I already heated...if the power goes out and the burner does not run, you just open all the zone valves manually and burn wood. CI Peter
First off, I'd like to say that I'm a long time lurker and first time poster.
The no-brainer would be to take the downtown 7th Ave local, or take the express and transfer to the local at Chambers Street. The downside is that the local often takes more than 25 minutes. Even if I take the express to Chambers, it's not unusual to wait seven minutes or longer for the connecting local.
I wonder if the N/R would be "quicker", even if its speed is "lower" than the IRT 7th Avenue line. It seems to me that there is less crowding on downtown N/R trains during the PM rush than on the 1/2/3 trains.
I suppose I could even take any of the 8th Avenue trains and switching to the 4/5 at Fulton, even though this would entail more walking from Bowling Green.
In short, my question is what the fastest route from TS to SF during the PM rush is.
Another guess, the Q or W down to Union Square, then the 4/5 down to Bowling Green.
Realistically, if the N/R comes before the Q/W, you could take that to Union Square instead, as at most you'd only lose a couple of minutes.
First of all, welcome.
Secondly, take the 7th ave local. It doesn't matter local/express, but it's a one-seat ride.
(The downside is that the local often takes more than 25 minutes.)
It shouldn't.
(Even if I take the express to Chambers, it's not unusual to wait seven minutes or longer for the connecting local.)
Again, in the PM rush hour, that is quite extreme.
In the PM rush, fastest should be 2/3 express to Chambers, then switch to the 1/9. But 1/9 direct should only be a few minutes more, and could be less if you have to wait for a 2/3.
I don't know what time you are traveling but the run from from Times Square to Chambers is 13 min.(usually done in about 10) on the 1 train, add another 4 mins. from Cham. to S.F. and it should take no more then 17 mins. travel time plus whatever time you have to wait for a train which should be no more then 6 mins. until the late P.M. hours.
Best route is the 1/9 local. I use it every other weekend to go to Staten Island. Beats how I used to have to hike from Bowling Green( even though I live on the Upper East Side) and the forever slowness of the N or R from Union Square.
I don't mind riding the Ferry, but it is easier for me than riding the X10 bus from 57 and 3. But being a transit rider, I had to give up my Ferry and alternate X10 run for the X31 which shaves off an hour and 30 minutes from subway, ferry, and S61 connections and a whopping 1 hour from the X10. The beauty is that X31 runs via Jersey Tpk, and stops right at my S61 stop at Bradley and Willowbrook. X10 leaves me at the SI Expwy and Gannon, which if I miss the S61( I always do) I have a four block up-hill trek to Willowbrook and Bradley.
But back to trains over here, I hope we have a SubTalk Field Trip riding the Staten Island Railway. Only rode as far as Great Kills and it was 10:00 at night. Didn't see much.
But back to trains over here, I hope we have a SubTalk Field Trip riding the Staten Island Railway. Only rode as far as Great Kills and it was 10:00 at night. Didn't see much.
What do you expect in Staten Island? :)
"What do you expect in Staten Island? :)"
Uh, plenty of times I used to take the bus over from Brooklyn and go to various spots where I could be sure of finding quiet non-park woods to go to on warm days. Whereupon I would get some serious reading done. Fer instance, I used to make my over over to Travis Yard (I THINK it's called Travis Yard) of the SIRT near the Goethals Bridge. I'd get a sandwich, pickle, chips, a bananna or apple and a soda from one of the delis right there on...Morningstar Road?, anyway, it's right at the edge of the yard. Then I'd amble down to the track level and walk west a ways. With all the abandoned tracks, plenty of trees and bushes covering most of the terrain, and nothing much on the bordering neighborhoods that would mean people passing through, this place was a quiet little sanctuary to enjoy a lazy sunny day. Planes to and from Newark Airport passing in the sky, crickets, birds and other critter sounds playing in the background, the occasional bark of four (and two) legged mammals in the distance, the rails, ties, metal stumps and rip rap scattered about...and that unique dusty smell of all of it...all this added up to peace of mind.
Afterwards, usually towards dusk I'd walk onto the branch that heads south, crossing over the bridge plaza. Some really thick growth along that line! Big trees, mean swaths of stubborn sticker bushes that don't like intruders. I'd hop down to the bridge walkway, cross over into Elizabeth and take a train back to the city. It was usually on a Sunday, I worked 4:30 to 1:00 in the morning so it was no sweat if I didn't get back to Brooklyn until midnight or so. All in all, a pretty satisfying day.
I was joking around, man. Did you not notice my smilie? :)
"I was joking around, man. Did you not notice my smilie? :)"
Yes, my brother. I had you covered. It was just that the line made me think about the stuff I used to do on the island. I was, uh, waxing philosophically. Plus, I loved the fact that a walk to a bus over a bridge to an abandoned rail yard could leave me in a relaxed state of mind. The funny, serendipitious nature of existence.
Just take the 1/9 local,that is the best way,the quickest and the entrance to the ferry terminal is right only a few feet away from you.
Why endure through changing of train's and long walk's when that is completely unnecessary.
Times Sq - Whitehall: 18 scheduled minutes on the N/R + 2.5 minutes (at a quick walk) to the loading doors.
Times Sq - South Ferry: 17 scheduled minutes on the 1/9 + 1.5 minutes to the loading doors.
Should you walk onto the IRT platform and find an express and local sitting, take the express to Chambers then transfer. You should catch the local ahead of the one you left at the Square. Should you walk onto the BMT platform and find an express and local sitting, take the local. Even money that the express will not catch the local ahead and might get to union Sq in time to miss this one.
I recommend the IRT 7th Avenue locals, i.e. the 1 and 9. Sure, you could ride an express to Chambers but more often than not, you'll have plenty of problems, so stick to the locals. That's what I did and I'll never regret it!
Fastest way to get from Times Square to South Ferry???? Try walking.
You mean he shouldn't take the N train to Whitehall? :-)
If Fred had his way, the N train wouldn't go to Whitehall.
See Dave, at long last you finally have gotten me totally wired. You are absolutely correct. If I had my druthers Whitehall, Rector, the Montague rathole, etc, would be a thing of the past for my train. At least now you have let the rest of our Subtalkers knows what motivates me and what doesn't. Dave, you are now a gentlemen and a scholar.
How about the M-6 Broadway Bus? Better then walking! >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
1) Does CONRAIL have names for all of its freight routes? (such as this one and SEAL)
2) What is the history of this line? (in the photo)
Note the friendly engineer waving at the photographer.
Fill in the blank: (I don't know if this is too hard, but ask for clues if necessary)
It's __________ 30, 1995, in ____________, ______________ as Conrail No. 8056 leads ________-based local ____-10 west on the branch to Denver, Pennsylvania. The building on the left is the former _________ depot, now a private residence. In _____ months, __________ will turn this branch over to _______________________.
Photo by Alan Crossley.
SEAL is not a freight route, it is a train designation. Conrail usED a 4-alpha system that combines the first two letters of the originatinng terminal with the first two letters of recieving terminal. Its intermodel trains carried TV or Mail symbols and its unit trains carried a 3-alpha symbol like UDG or DAL.
I can't tell you the history of the branch in the picture because I do not know which one it is (and I am not going downstairs to get my map).
Since this was not a very big hit, I'll fill the blanks in for you in order:
September
Vinemont
Pennsylvania
Reading
WHRE
Vinemont
two
Conrail
shortline Lancaster & Northern
Speaking of which, can someone tell me basic information about Lancaster & Northern? I haven't heard of this name before.
It is probably one of the segments of the PRR in southern Penna that was abandoned and was reorged under this name or it reverted back to the original owner name, as did other segments of CONRAIL (PRR, NYC, NYNH&H, D&H, LV, etc)
The D & H was never part of Conrail!
They did get a lot of trackage rights as a result of the creation of Conrail though.
Hey Im trying to get some photo's of the M7 Control Panel, Im trying to create the M7 Trainset for BVE Simulator, I remembered I asked before, and when I went back into the archives to get them just now they have red x's there, from this post here. Can someone post some good shots of the control panel so I can get started? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I notice this happens all the time. Once, I went into the archives to seek out the posts that welcomed R62A's on the IRT Flushing around February of 2002. Needless to say, all of the image links were broken. I guess they were taken down or something of some sort. It's really frustrating!
Nah Its not all the photos, because some are them are still up.
Dave has been changing the naming system for the photos. My understanding is that they are being given new names, not being taken off the site.
N.J. light-rail debut delayed until late fall
The already delayed $1 billion light-rail line being built for South Jersey could open as late as November, state officials said yesterday.
The full article will be available on the Web for a limited time:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/5443318.htm
(c) 2003 Philadelphia Inquirer and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
This line's routing was not the best conceived in the world. More PATCO routes would have been helpful (and NIMBYs be damned).
Bombardier is building the cars in Germany? Is this their Adtranz subsidiary?
I hope the line is successful. If it is, it will be an incredible bargain, $1 billion for a line of that length.
That would buy you about 20 crossties and two lengths of 133 lb. rail in the Second Avenue Subway. :)
I hope so too. I like the design of the cars and how they have that unusual center section that houses the propulsion motors and fuel tanks.
It is, they were designed and built by Adtranz before Bombardier took it over. The design is based on the Class 646 DMUs that are used by Deutsche Bundesbahn and other, privately-owned railroads in Germany.
I have frequently railfanned the A and F lines. I look at the signal #s, and I see that riding down from 207th to Euclid, the signals only go down to about 400, and then increase going to the Rockaways at Grant Avenue. Similarly, I only ride the F to Kings Highway, but when I can railfan it, at Kings Highway the signal is 418 (at Union Turnpike, it is 1617). Is there a zero point on the IND subway? (I know that this 418 is on the BMT, but its signal numbers carry over to the elevated from the IND as the B tracks.)
It's out in New York Harbor, not all that far from Liberty Island.
To add the technical explanation, IND zero is determined by drawing a line from the center line of the W4 St. station south to the point in New York Harbor where the line would intersect the underwater state line between New York and New Jersey.
But I believe that point is a great deal south of Liberty Island. in Lower New York Harbor, so that all points in the City of New York are north of it. Otherwise the F Line would be getting into negative numbers are it goes to Coney Island, since the IND chaining gets lower south of W4.
I asked that once in school car, only time it ever really mattered to me. The LOOK I got though was amusing, that was the answer I got. I was asked if I wanted to volunteer to go down there and plant a flag. :)
I was asked if I wanted to volunteer to go down there and plant a flag.
And did you? Are you going to post a picture for us?
Heh. Troublemaker. :)
Nah, I figured underwater operations on the IND fell to the troops of C Division, I had enough difficulty between balls and jacks thank ya. Since we have an abundant supply of mapmakers and mathemagicians though, I'm surprised there isn'a already a "You are HERE" on the main site. (grin)
The way I understand it, West 4th St's code is 975 (on the signals), and then all points increase going north and decrease going south. The Rockaway has another zero point. Explanations can be found under "chaining codes" at http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor
975 = 97,500 feet = 18.466 miles. That's just about consistent with chaining zero being offshore of Tottenville and east of Tottenville at the NY-NJ line.
Without getting out survey maps figure it this way: we know its about 2 miles from W4 to Battery, 5 miles Battery-St. George, and 14 miles St. George to Tottenville via the SIRT. That's a total of 21 miles. But when you figure that that the ferry and then the SIRT runs southeast then southwest and so on, those squiggles could account for the discrepency -- lessee, where my protractor? :)
A notice was issued today to all employees. I have typed it out below.
3/21/2003
Notice 30-03
To: All Employees
Subject: Observing suspicious individuals taking pictures of Transit facilities
As part of MTA New York City Transit's continuing efforts to make our system safe for our employees and customers, we are encouraging our employees to continue to keep an observant eye on their surroundings, looking for anything unusual or suspicious. This includes individuals taking photographs of various parts of the system, including structures, bridges, tunnels, transit buildings, emergency exits, etc. If you observe anyone taking photographs of transit facilities or infrastructure, call Control Center immediately.
WHAT MAKES SOMEONE LOOK SUSPICIOUS
* May be taking photos of personnel, facilities or equipment
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Transportation Officer
Rapid Transit Operations
Of course, that is open to interpretation. I notice particularly what they don't explicitely mention: "trains."
I think the word "equipment" covers that.
Ah, I was looking at the main part of the post.
Still, unless they intend to prohibit photography, we need to parse the intent.
If I were looking at for possible terrorists I would be noting behavior. Someone who seemed to be taking more than a cursory shot at a subject that railfans ordinarily wouldn't would raise my suspicion. Included in that would be, as mentioned, bridges, emergency exits, switches, etc., especially if they seemed to be taken multiple shots from different angles.
It's one of those things which is hard to describe, but you'd it if you see it.
Good point.
I think they could set a trap. Run the museum cars through the system regularly, picking up passengers. Run consists of Redbirds in rainbow paint schemes with special signage such as "5-Culver to Culver Depot" and so on.
Any dudes who are taking pictures of switches and emergency exits while these are rolling by are your terrorists. Book 'em, Dougo! :)
LOL! Sounds like a plan :)
Any dudes who are taking pictures of switches and emergency exits while these are rolling by are your terrorists.
And anyone else caught taking pictures is sent straight to Creedmoor :)
Shades of Big Brother, don't you think?
What will be next, random stopping of vehicles, oh wait we have that now. Is this Cuba for christ sakes?
I am all for precaution, but come on already
At least in China the girls look better! :-)
>>>CLASSIC JOHN<<< Iraq will be free and we will be...
Uh oh. This railfan took 120 photos of the Times Square complex a few weeks ago. Not of trains, for the most part -- of the station itself.
Station design is perhaps of greater interest to me than the trains themselves are.
Expect to get deported any day now...
Damn. In the Spring of 2001 I took a walk from Staten Island over the Bayonne Bridge. I took pictures of the entrance on Staten Island, the walkway, various views in each direction along the way. One point, I sort of stood up on top of a railing to take some shots of Manhattan in the distance. This was before 9/11.
I was stopped once before I hit land on the Jersey side by cops pulling up on the adjacent roadway alongside the walkway and questioned why I had been taking pictures. I was allowed to continue crossing; however, once at the end staircase, two Bayonne cops laid the same questions on me. Admittedly, they were a little more friendlier than the PA cops who had stopped me on the bridge. Still, I didn't get into how I got there. (You tell a cop "Well, see, I hitchhiked on the Southern State Pkwy. from Islip on Long Island to Newkirk Avenue Brooklyn, caught a bus to south Bay Ridge, transferred to a Verrazzano Bridge bus to Port Richmond and walked over the Bayonne Bridge `cause I wanted to take some pictures of the new HBLRT line to Jersey City"....it ain't gonna go over so well.)
I guess you just have to be careful in this pursuit of transit infrastructure. After all, we are truely a minority of the general populace. In other words....to "outsiders" our hobby is "different".
You sicko! You like stations more than the trains???
Oh dear. I guess that makes me a confirmed terrorist.
but you are a terrorist who is awake on a sunday morning
Of course. This terrorist has plans to travel to a YARD this morning to meet two other terrorists.
Shhhhhhhhh! Don't reveal the plan!
I didn't say which yard!
Station design is perhaps of greater interest to me than the trains themselves are.
I guess I'm a sicko also. I love the trains, but station infastructure fascinates me! The trains are like an added bonus. Of course stations would be boring without the trains passing through them, but exploring stations is one of my favorite parts of riding the subway.
I believe that you're right. That means no pictures of trains buses or anyu other pieces of equipment.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> This includes individuals taking photographs of various parts of the system, including structures, bridges, tunnels, transit buildings, emergency exits, etc. <<<
If you think the paranoia level is at an Orange level there, we had the governor of California state on TV that citizens should "report anyone taking pictures of bridges or large buildings such as the Staples Center to police so they can check them out. Let the police determine if the people are suspicious."
This in a tourist area with Japanese tourists all over the place with their cameras.
Tom
Ya, you gotta love NYC. Always at the forefront of this 'Battle with Terror.'
[...we had the governor of California state on TV that citizens should "report anyone taking pictures of bridges or large buildings such as the Staples Center to police so they can check them out. Let the police determine if the people are suspicious."]
That's stupid. If a building/station/train/bus/etc. is readily visible to the public (that is, while the observer is in a designated public space), then its existence is public knowledge and can be legitimately recorded by the public.
If you think the paranoia level is at an Orange level there, we had the governor of California state on TV that citizens should "report anyone taking pictures of bridges or large buildings such as the Staples Center to police so they can check them out. Let the police determine if the people are suspicious."
Christ, now I gotta add Gray Davis to my list of adult-diaper recipients. There goes my paycheck.
Does that mean no more photographing subways anymore?
And pardon my spelling.
Why? You made no spelling errors.
Peace,
ANDEE
He's making up for all those people who spell every other word incorrectly and seem never to notice.
Yep that's what that means. We have far more important things to worry about than take pics of buses and trains. I mean how many times can you take pics of the same bus/train in the same location?
Expect subway photography to be like PATH-NONE!!!
I have officially taken my final pics as of last week. I will no longer be taking pics of anything anymore. I still have pics to contribute to Dave Pirmann and to TransiTalk but as far as any new pics-no more AT LEAST for a while that is.
Besides I have no more film to take anymore pics.
What you see is what you will get.
#9713 7 Flushing Local
>>> Does that mean no more photographing subways anymore? <<<
No, it means you will have to take the pictures the same way the terrorist do; have someone waving an American flag stand next to what you want to photograph and click away. :-)
Tom
Hey, Mark...since the notice is coming from an old Ford can it be recycled into bathroom tissue?
I prefer a Chevy or Kreisler over a Ford any day...
I didn't know Steve was in the auto business???
:)
[* May be taking photos of personnel, facilities or equipment]
Gee, that means arresting tourists who photograph one another on the subway. Is THAT the way to encourage tourism?
A notice was issued today to all employees. I have typed it out below.
3/21/2003
Notice 30-03
To: All Employees
Subject: Observing suspicious individuals taking pictures of Transit facilities
As part of MTA New York City Transit's continuing efforts to make our system safe for our employees and customers, we are encouraging our employees to continue to keep an observant eye on their surroundings, looking for anything unusual or suspicious. This includes individuals taking photographs of various parts of the system, including structures, bridges, tunnels, transit buildings, emergency exits, etc. If you observe anyone taking photographs of transit facilities or infrastructure, call Control Center immediately.
WHAT MAKES SOMEONE LOOK SUSPICIOUS
* May be taking photos of personnel, facilities or equipment
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Transportation Officer
Rapid Transit Operations
I'd like to send Nathaniel some adult diapers. Do you know his approximate waist size, so we could ensure a good fit?
You have quite an interesting sense of humor!! I certainly like the idea of giving someone adult diapers as a practical joke. At the same time we should refrain from taking pictures on the subways.
#3 West End Jeff
Peter should send you some adult diapers.
Peace,
ANDEE
You have a crazy sense of humor too. BTW I always wanted some adult diapers. Just Kidding. :-O
#3 West End Jeff
Bullshirt ... I agree with Peter, and feel that we should establish a charitable organization to hand them out. Now before anyone accuses me of being "unpatriotic" (one of the reasons I'm not posting as much as I used to) lemme explain.
Anyone who intends to do us, the city, bridges, subways or storm drains harm TOOK THE PICTURES ALREADY, LONG before "hostilities" began. As we say up here in the cow pastures, "barn, horses" ... to clamp down now only demonstrates stupidity, not caution. :(
About the only new "intelligence" that might be gathered by an enemy MIGHT be the new alignment on the Canarsie line after it's been moved, but they've probably already downloaded the plan drawings. Morons.
Damn, you're good! :)
Don't be out there taking pictures, brah ... let Randy Kennedy and a NY Times photog sweat it out under that ceiling lamp in the back room of da police station. :)
>>> Anyone who intends to do us, the city, bridges, subways or storm drains harm TOOK THE PICTURES ALREADY, LONG before "hostilities" began. <<<
You cannot really say that. As we piss off more and more people around the world there will always be new enemies to be worried about. Keep an eye on anyone with a French or German accent and a camera! :-)
Tom
Nah ... obviously you've been spending too much time on subtalk and evaded your patriotic duties to watch Fozz Nooze ... Rummy sez, "screw old Europe, let's blow up the Turks." :)
But all the information a potential terrorist would need *IS* already out there. It IS kinda too late to go whistling for the horses that have gone over the hill ...
History repeats itself with 'Axis Powers.' Assinination of Archduke Ferdinand in 1914..WW1...Austro/Hungarian/Prussian/Turkish entity.
What was Turkey doing in WW2? Gotta look it up!
Turkey/Iran/Iraq are 'Persians' and not Arabs. Check out the Balfour Agreements. Remember 'Lawrence of Arabia?'
Agree completely: keep an eye on anyone with a German or French accent, especially if they posess a camera. Don't forget the deals the Russians made....nuclear powerplants in a country full of never ending oil wells save what Kuwait can steal. Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates...all created BEFORE the discovery of oil reserves. CI Peter
What really scares me about all this limiting on photography is much bigger than a loss of great train photo ops. By limiting the public's rights to take photographs in public places, we're also limiting the ability of journalists, etc. to document official abuse photographically.
Mark
Journalists have press passes issued by NYPD. All they have to do is produce them on request.
I believe with the changed rules, journalists must now be "embedded" INTO the subway cars permanently. :)
The main problem with railfans is how to keep them from being embedded into the fronts of trains.
One thing I'd like to throw on to the floor for consideration: Does anyone know if there's a double standard set by the NYPD when it comes to the treatment of journalists depending on their 'pedigree"? I'd like someone who writes, or photographs for other than the BIG FOUR papers (i.e., NYPost, Daily News, NYTimes or NewsDay) to answer -- if they should lurk here -- whether they get the same 'press privileges' as their 'big shot' brethen. I've often wondered about just such a scenerio. The 'small press' would include local neighborhood papers, scholastic papers, and even railfan magazine reporters.
>>> Does anyone know if there's a double standard set by the NYPD when it comes to the treatment of journalists depending on their 'pedigree"? <<<
I do not know about the NYPD, but during the Vietnam era, the LAPD limited press passes to local daily newspapers and national news magazines such as "Time" and "Newsweek." They would not issue press passes to weekly alternative (political) newspapers, on the basis that they were not gathering news. This policy was modified only after lengthy court battles.
Under those rules "The Village Voice" would not get a press pass.
Tom
Thanks for that info Tom...I had read something to that effect some years ago. But, my question was more akin to 'bending the rules' on a one-on-one basis so to speak, rather than an 'across the board' effort on the part of the Police Dept.
What is the specific regulation that regulates subway photography in the subway? Just the week of the 8th, I went up to a V train conductor complaining about subway photography in the rear car to the track behind them (even though it was an R46), and I was told that they could only be stopped if this was done on a bridge. What are the specific ramifications of this change, as to where railfand can be stopped for taking photography? Would this include (I presume) taking pictures of tracks and signals, or yards?
In any kind of police work, jibing genuinely suspicious behavior with written regulation is difficult.
So long as photography isn't prohibited outright, it would be wise for railfan photographers to be prepared to explain, simply and non-confrontationally, that they are railfans and what they are photographing and why. If asked to stop, do so.
What represents a threat is in the eye of the beholder. Many years ago, a motorman stopped his Triplex before the Albemarle Road Bridge, got out of his cab, opened the storm door, and yelled and shook his fist at me. All I was doing was train-watching, but its a good guess that he had had a rock thrown at him at some previous time by some of the kids from a local school. People doing innocent stuff often pay the price for others.
>>> Many years ago, a motorman stopped his Triplex before the Albemarle Road Bridge, got out of his cab, opened the storm door, and yelled and shook his fist at me. <<<
It's a shame you didn't get a picture of that. :-)
Tom
Aw, people would think it was staged on a fan trip. ;-)
Paul, I hope that wasn't Una Ed (aka BIGEDIRTMANL)...now I'm beginning to see why he left NYCTA! :)
Nah, Unca Ed woulda dumped the train, thrown it in reverse, and wrapped it for a second run-by. Unca Ed's a partier. :)
Come to think of it -- you're right...Una Ed is too mellow a fellow* to let a 'mere foamer*' w/a camera upset him...:)
*Wow! I'm a poet and I didn't know it! :o
**With apologies to PM
Heh. Not many that can hold their own with me in our beer garden here. Unca Ed kept up with me Pilzener fur pilzener ... and after all those beers, threw him on the simulator and he made every stop as smooth as could be running an R68A on the sim. Yep, Unca Ed is IND/BMT stock through and through. A credit to his handles. :)
Ah, so I see he broke Branford's Rule G...LOL!
He wasn't at Branford. Here on the SELKIRK Subway, you can only pass the drug/alcohol test if you can no longer hit the bottle. :)
What can I say? Some simulated railroads are FUN to run trains on. If you wreck the train HERE, everybody walks away cackling. Heh.
What is the specific regulation that regulates subway photography in the subway?
FAQ: Photography in the Subway
Here is the full text of "RULES GOVERNING THE CONDUCT AND SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC IN THE USE OF THE FACILITIES OF NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY AND MANHATTAN AND BRONX SURFACE TRANSIT OPERATING AUTHORITY".
--Mark
Ah ha!!! So it IS LEGAL to take pics of subways and buses. So what is all this camotion that you're not allowed to take a pic of the #7 train arriving in at QBP on the upper level? Have those laws changed since 9-11? Are they gonna arrest/question me if I'm taking a pic of a Redbird at that station?
#9700 7 Flushing Local
Ah ha!!! So it IS LEGAL to take pics of subways and buses. So what is all this camotion that you're not allowed to take a pic of the #7 train arriving in at QBP on the upper level? Have those laws changed since 9-11? Are they gonna arrest/question me if I'm taking a pic of a Redbird at that station?
#9700 7 Flushing Local
I, for one, am glad I stopped taking subway/mass transit pics years ago. Between worrying about being branded a terrorist, and wondering if some gung-ho cop with an attitude is going to find you easy prey, it simply isn't worth it. With newyorksubway.org, with its hundreds of pictures and graphics, not to mention the vast wealth of info I glean from Subtalkers, I really don't miss taking the pics. And I, at least, have peace of mind. My subway hobby is a very important part of life, but I want to gain pleasure from it, not unnesscary grief.
Someone should send this guy a copy of the NYCRR rules and regulations. I wouldn't worry about this too much, folks, as of last week the law was still on our side. A memo from this guy can't make it illegal.
Yes, I will continue to to take photos.
But it probably not a bad idea to ask first if you see an employee near where you plan to take a photo. And you might even produce a museum ID as a way of showing that you realy are a railfan ... just a thought.
If someone here gets in trouble for photographing trains now that this memo is out, I'd recommend calling the MTA's switchboard and asking to be put through to this guy's office. Then you can speak with him and try to get the concept of railfanning sorted out with him.
-Robert King
There seems to be skepticism about this whole thing. However, I have seen a presentation used to train Transit workers nationwide about how to watch out for terrorism, and it includes many things that railfans do. More than just pictures: among the other things that were suggested as suspicious activity were 'passengers allowing multiple trains to pass' (u guys waiting for a particular trainset, or maybe a redbird consist) or people taking 'notes' (something some people on this site have said they've done). Don't take this lightly guys. It is very real. These things have already been taught in classes, and will likely be taught to ta employees en masse, much like track safety classes already are.
Just figured i'd give u guys a heads up.
Frankly BOO HOO, the best way to protest this crap is to go about you normal buissness and if they arrest you deal with it, they cant charge you with anything so why let it bother you (I mean honestly, you might get hassled by an employee but what are the odds of them calling the cops and them actually arresting you for taking LEGAL pictures)
PS admitadly I live in Toronto and we very rarly have any trouble with the transit system and the police (transait or otherwise) dont bother anyone.
It's only rare until one of those Special Constables give you a hard time first hand.
-Robert King
I was once was questioned by a cop at 168th Street Jamaica about 35 years ago taking down numbers while waiting for trains to pass until the R16 on the RJ showed up one evening.
Brought to you by "The Eyes and Ears Network."
You got that book too without the course??? One copy sits on my dashboard just in case I get stopped at checkpoint. CI Peter
OK...Fine. If someone sees you taking photos of facilities/equipment, it'll raise hassle. But if noone sees you take the picture, and then you put the picture up on your web site, would you get two FBI agents knocking on your front door? Not that I would know, 'cause my doorbell works only at random.
Two points:
First and most important, Mr. Ford's memo was in response to a senior staff memo to all department heads. The thrust of the message is that if anyone is observed photographing NYCT facilities, it should be reported so that proper authorities can investigate or not as they deem necessary. Railfans are not being targetted but it would be foolish not to protect transit facilities (and the millions who ride daily) so as not to risk offending a few unsympathetic picture-takers.
SecondCorrect me if I'm incorrect but I believe that the line preceded by the (*) was your editorial comment. If so, it was inappropriate to insert same into the memo - only for the sake of clarity.
SecondCorrect me if I'm incorrect but I believe that the line preceded by the (*) was your editorial comment. If so, it was inappropriate to insert same into the memo - only for the sake of clarity.
No...That was in the memo....
Seriously?
My apologies ! A silly way to write an officcial memo
Welcome to RTO 8-)
Well, I'm going out now. It's too beautiful a day to stay cooped up in the house just because of heightened security. Wish me luck...hopefully I don't encounter any problems.
Don't forget your gas mask and anti-radiation pills...today's forecast is partly cloudly with possible passing biological contaminants and radioative fallout...have a nice day.
(This message was also posted in www.nycrail.com.)
Now the sport of railfanning is ruined:
Tourists will now want to avoid New York City altogether. Us railfans now will have to take up another hobby, NYCT does not want ANYONE remotely to take pictures, it is understandable that they want to protect their employees (but do they REALLY protect track workers? It's another story.), but now what are we going to do when the next Fan trip comes around, carry throw away cameras so that when the police see us, we can discard them in garbage cans?
According to the NY State Public Authorities Law, NYCT cannot have police issue summonses or arrest anyone for taking pictures, as long as equipment other than the camera is not used (e.g. tripods, lighting, etc.), and it is done in public spaces.
So just have some valid ID (job or retiree ID is the best protection for you). It shows that you are employed or a retiree, and pose no threat whatsover.
Brighton Express, THE world's greatest subway line
Here's a stoy for you:
My daughter works for a eyewhere wholeseller. There was a trade show this past week-end at the Javits Center. She was repeated asked "are these frames made in France ?"
...a eyewhere wholeseller.
Someone who sells the answer, "On your face"? 8-)
General French bashing. See all the media hoopla. Get all your news from TV and that's what happens.
Next thing you know some not-it-not will complain about the "French built subway cars that NY is buying."
I would not worry about it and just go about your normal business.Just dont make any suspicous moves or acts.If someone should bother you,just talk normally,do not act intimidated,but at the same time do not act hostile or abusive.Remember,you have rights too,you are innocent until proven guilty.I doubt though that any railfan will be acosted.
I decided to seek clarification from the source and sent an e-mail to the MTA expressing my concerns. Here is the response - it is very well written and clarifies the issue... I have no argument at all with their response...
(Although they did miss one point - nowhere in my original letter did I say that I personally experienced any difficulty, but they apologize for it anyway)
--- BEGIN QUOTE ---
Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
Railroad Buffs and photography
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Antonio Ligonde) - 03/26/2003 02:26 PM
This is in response to your recent e-mail regarding photography in MTA New York City Transit's subway system and a recent employee safety bulletin.
We sincerely regret any difficulty you have experienced. However, in light of recent events, New York City Transit has had to take measures to ensure the security and safety of our passengers. While we appreciate "railroad buffs" and encourage interest in the history and evolution of NYC Transit's subway system, at this time, the safety of our customers is our highest priority and we will continue our efforts in this regard. As such, employees in our Department of Subways have been instructed to be on alert for any suspicious behavior, including passengers taking extensive and detailed pictures of our facilities. However, it should be noted that this safety measure does not state that persons taking pictures should be detained by a Division of Stations' employee, but supervision should be notified so that they may assess the possible dangers or level of suspicion, if any.
Please be assured that we will take appropriate action to ensure that customers are not unnecessarily harassed or detained. In addition a copy of your letter has been forwarded to supervision in our Division of Stations for review.
Thank you for having taken the time to write.
Nice! Thanks for posting that.
---Brian
Geez, what do you think would happen if a Railbuff who's also a Transit Employee wanted to take pictures? He does so, now should he be treated as a suspicious character? I might want to take a picture or two every so often, but I don't want to be frowned upon as someone suspicious....
-Stef
...and people wonder why the only subway pictures I take are at the Transit Museum??????
Yeah!!! At least, some of those display pieces will finally come to life.
-Stef
-Stef
I guess that should settle things...thanks for the post...
Thats ok by me,People think I am a suspicous character anyway.
As a TA RTO employee, I know that the safety of our fellow employees and customers are the #1 priority, and in this day and age we must be very vigilant. One, nowadays, does not know who is a harmless train buff (like myself :-) ) or someone wishing to do harm to us all. Unfortunately there are people who foul things up for all of us. At the same time I think it is messed up how idiots on the other side of the world with ignorant views about peoples of the world, and very destructive ways to express that ignorance, have helped to ruin something as harmless as railroading, and make things as simple as photography of a passing train a hassle, and a source of suspicion of foul activity to other people. Just be cautious out there, and if an officer approaches you, remain calm, answer questions the officer asks, don't act nervous or in any way that might arouse suspicions. And if the officer asks you to leave, just comply and don't argue it. While photographing, or simply trainwatching, be very vigilant yourself to your surroundings, and try not to venture onto areas on the right-of-way restricted from non-employees. Just be responsible and be wary.
If this is old news, my apologies. I haven't taken too much interest into the Second Avenue Subway (SAS) posts.
I have seen a map of the SAS. It is dated 10/02. These are the observations I have seen. I have no way of knowing for certain if these will be final.
They apparently have chosen to go with the Deep Chrystie option. This means the SAS will be built under the current Grand St. platform with a vertical transfer as opposed to the Shallow Chrystie option with an across the platform transfer at Grand St. This also means that the unused portion of the SAS already built at the foot of the Manhattan Br. will not be used. This tunnel is closer to the surface. It appears it will be connected to the SAS in some manner but not for trains. The south end of the SAS will begin at Broad St. (2 tail tracks south of the Hanover Sq. terminal) and follow this route. Water St., Pearl St., St. James Place, Bowery, Chrystie St., 2nd Ave. and then 125 St. The SAS will go over the LIRR/Amtrak tunnels at 34 St., 7 line at 42 St., E/V at 53 St., N/R at 60 St. and the F/future LIRR at 63 St. It will tunnel under everything else. The two unused sections in upper Manhattan will be used. It is interesting to note that the older sections will be thinner than the rest of the line. 72 St. will be 2 island platforms and 3 tracks. 116 St. station will be there. Up at the north end are plans for a storage yard. Looks to be about 8 tracks and they begin at 125 st. and end in bumping blocks at 128 St. The two eastern most tracks would be for a possible connection to the Bronx. The junction for the mainline and the yard begins back at 119 St. and the mainline makes a big sweeping curve onto 125 St., first a little to the east and then west. 125 St./Lex station has 3 tracks in a strange arrangement. One side platform (north) and one island platform. Tail tracks go beyond the station to 5 Ave. Track connections to Queens and Broadway at 63 St. are still there as well.
The question is, will we ever get past design?
My guess is, if we don't start construction on the upper portion in 2004, it's all over. Too much money for the elderly beginning in 2010, and too much Republican debt to pay off at all levels of government.
On the other hand, if we do get the portion north of 63rd Street open by 2009, city residents won't be any worse off (and perhaps a little better off) despite East Side Access. And that might generate enough momentum to slowly, with local resources, built the southern sections over decades (a-la the Third Water Tunnel). If those bastards care at all about the future of the city and region, East Side Access, the upper half of the Second Avenue Subway, the Flushing Extension and MetroNorth to Penn will all be in operation by 2009.
In short, if Pataki and Bloomberg are saying "We must defer our dreams" in 2004, no one but Ron in Bayside should be fooled. They have chosen the social adjustment scenario over the investment scenario. Move to the suburbs if you are not poor.
Flushing Extension? There are still plans for that-can you please elaborate?
Larry, my opinion is that if we want to see SAS at all, get the northern portion built, and don't spend time militating about the southern part of the route. The mere existence of the northern part will create pressure for the southern part.
New Yorkers are weird. If they get a half a loaf, they're fit too be tied. If they get no loaf at all but force politicians to spend money on detailed plans for a full loaf in the sweet-by-and-by they feel they've won a victory.
A lot of money has been spent on planning studies that never created a piece of physical structure.
This does have a certain validity to it. The 63 Street Tunnel, for example, being known for all of those years as the "tunnel to nowhere", implying that we wanted for it to be a tunnel to somewhere, but in the process, things were changed, i.e., it went from a route that was originally to use the LIRR Montauk line (IIRC) to being merged with the existing Queens Boulevard Line. So I suppose the lesson to be gleaned from this is that while building the northern half will create pressure for building the southern half, we cannot be sure that pressure will be applied to exactly what we want, or what was originally conceived. For instance, the pressure might be there, not the money, so maybe a similar tie-in to Queens Boulevard-63 Street would be done in that the Second Avenue Subway would connect into, say, the Nassau Street Line.
(The lesson to be gleaned from this is that while building the northern half will create pressure for building the southern half,
we cannot be sure that pressure will be applied to exactly what we want, or what was originally conceived. For instance, the pressure might be there, not the money, so maybe a similar tie-in to Queens Boulevard-63 Street would be done in that the Second Avenue Subway would connect into, say, the Nassau Street Line.)
Yes and no. The 63rd Street line was useless without the tie in, and yet the vast majority of the work had already been done -- the tunnel, complicated connections to two other subway lines, three stations (the Lexignton Avenue one expensive and complex), etc. A little more money recovered some of the enormous value already invested.
In contrast, the portion of the Second Avenue Subway to be built first -- the section north of 63rd -- is the part that is most essential, and the least expensive. The second most valuable is the section from 63rd to 34th, since that would permit those on the Upper East Side and in Queens (via 63rd Street) to access East Midtown without using the Lex.
I agree with your post. Very sensible.
"In contrast, the portion of the Second Avenue Subway to be built first -- the section north of 63rd -- is the part that is most essential, and the least expensive."
And the most politically critical.
How many tracks will the portion have?
Two tracks, except at the northern terminal.
Ok, but I thought it would be better to have 4 tracks.
We all think that's better. Find us some money.
Maybe if all the MTA guys went on one of those "millionaire-type" shows.
Millions of dollars? They need billions of dollars to get it built or completed?
Agreed. Time to build.
True. Not having any Second Ave. line in place keeps the whole idea of a Second Ave. subway out of most people's minds. Putting in the segment between 63rd and 125th would make more people wonder why the rest shouldn't be built, and then hopefully will demand the city and the MTA do so.
The question is, will we ever get past design?
My guess is, if we don't start construction on the upper portion in "2004, it's all over. Too much money for the elderly beginning in 2010, and too much Republican debt to pay off at all levels of government.
On the other hand, if we do get the portion north of 63rd Street open by 2009, city residents won't be any worse off (and perhaps a little better off) despite East Side Access. And that might generate enough momentum to slowly, with local resources, built the southern sections over decades (a-la the Third Water Tunnel). If those bastards care at all about the future of the city and region, East Side Access, the upper half of the Second Avenue Subway, the Flushing Extension and MetroNorth to Penn will all be in operation by 2009. "
Good thinking.
"In short, if Pataki and Bloomberg are saying "We must defer our dreams" in 2004, no one but Ron in Bayside should be fooled. "
Indeed, I am gullible in the extreme. Larry "Chicken Little"field ( ;-) ), you've been saying over and over during the past several years that the sky is falling and poor me, I've been gazing up at the sky looking for that big rip in the fabric and not finding it. You are cruel indeed..."
Indeed, I am gullible in the extreme
Just remember, Typical New York Incompetence is not merely one of my pet expressions, but a stark reflection of reality.
(Gullability, sky is falling.)
As a result of decisions made in the late 1990s, the City of New York's mandatory pension contributions will shortly reach 30 percent of payroll (national average seven percent) and debt service on money borrowed BEFORE the Second Avenue Subway was started will reach 20 percent. Medicaid expenditures are also soaring, the state proposes to shift more of them to the City, and the federal government, to cover its own budget deficit, proposes to shift more of them to the state.
THESE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED! The money is gone, along with those who benefittting. I saw them happening, and tried to fight against them.
So just remember when they say shelving the Second Avenue Subway is unavoidable. It will be unavoidable when they say it. It was not unavoidable in 1998. Your friends the Assemblymen and State Senators would have made it so.
As a result of decisions made in the late 1990s, the City of New York's mandatory pension contributions will shortly reach 30 percent of payroll (national average seven percent)
Hmmmm, there's that pneumonia epidemic that might spread here from Asia ....
2nd Ave is dead. William Thompson says Bloomberg and Paturkey have actually been too OPTIMISTIC about NYC's finances...subway construction and maintencance are always first to be deferred
www.forgotten-ny.com
Whatever happened to the 2012 Games? Is NYC still in the running for it?
Yes, New York is still in the 2012 Olympic bid race (though there are a lotta Frenchmen on the IOC...), and if the city was to get the bid, that would almost assure the construction of the Flushing line extension, because the politicians would face embarrassment if there were no mass transit access to the new West Side stadium. And since political calculations drive municipal projects more than anything, the funds will be found, no matter what the city or state's financial situation is.
You have it right. There is potential for extending it ifneeded.
Right now, everybody's focus is on making sure the initial segment's construction begins in 2004, as scheduled.
It'll be interesting to see all the traffic delays and the like once it commences. It'll be hell!
"t'll be interesting to see all the traffic delays and the like once it commences. It'll be hell! "
Not really. Two segments are already built, and, except for stations, the rest is going to be done by Tunnel Boring Machine.
The station areas will impose some inconveniences. But by and large, this is going to be relatively painless.
Still, I would think about the residential areas near the construction! Though a query about TBM's, how big are their blades anyway, or whatever they use to dig?
"Still, I would think about the residential areas near the construction! Though a query about TBM's, how big are their blades anyway, or whatever they use to dig?"
Go to Second Avenue Subway - Documents and; Presentations and down load Construction Methods, November 2002 and Construction Techniques. The documents show images of a tunnel boring machine that is similar to the one planed to dig the connecting tunnels between the stations.
This tunnel boring machine is very similar to the one used on the WMATA metrorail Red Line A route from south of (A03) Woodly Park-Zoo to north of (A10) Medical Center at Pooks Hill Road. Four contractors used the same machine to excavate these tunnels over a period of more the 4 years. The boring machine excavated a tunnel 21’ 6.40m in diameter it was then lined with a concrete 12" 30.48cm thick and a concrete track bed to allow for the installation of direct fixation track fasteners. Surface disruption was minimal during tunneling operation. The only surface disruption was at the vent, fan/construction shafts and surface entrances as all of the station were also excavated out of the bedrock.
Based on the information in the documents only the station will be cut and cover and some of the short connecting tunnels that are not deep enough to be excavated out of the harder soil. The excavations at the stations will likely be around 800’ 243.84m long and something under 65’ 19.81m wide.
John
(Based on the information in the documents only the station will be cut and cover and some of the short connecting tunnels that are not deep enough to be excavated out of the harder soil. )
It's not quite that pretty. The map shows 25 blocks of cut and cover on 2nd Ave between 92nd St and 130th, plus 0.4 miles of 125th St. That will cause quite a mess. The mess isn't a reason for not doing it, though.
"t's not quite that pretty. The map shows 25 blocks of cut and cover on 2nd Ave between 92nd St and 130th, plus 0.4 miles of 125th St."
Half of which was already completed years ago. Only finishing is required.
"That will cause quite a mess."
Wrong. Reread previous posts.
(Half of which was already completed years ago. Only finishing is required.)
I'm talking about the half that was not completed years ago. If the MTA in a current document says that cut and cover is required to construct a piece of the SAS, I assume they mean what they say.
They mark "existing segments" in green and "cut and cover construction" in yellow, and the 25 blocks + 0.4 mi on 125th St are marked in yellow.
I see.
Still not a problem, actually. Once covered, the street remains quite useable. It's only those areas where an opening is actually required that introduce inconvenience. Even cut and cover has come a ways since they did it in the 1960's ad 70's.
The Vine Street Expressway in Philly was a mess (I lived right on top of it as it was being built.) - in part because it really was an open pit for blocks and blocks until the very end.
Second Av will not nearly have that level of difficulty. But then, New Yorkers are famous for their whining.
(But then, New Yorkers are famous for their whining.)
Indeed.
And the whining will be fairly muted, because the people being inconvenienced the most will get the most benefit. But it will certainly be there.
Agreed.
I heard this before. I wonder why they are going with a Deep Chrystie option. Grand was designed for a 2nd Av. connection, and it would allow flexibility in allowing 2nd Av service to th Brooklyn BMT south. Plus utilizing another already built section.
Whatt's the benefit to going beneath Grand St?
The only thing that comes to mind is that with the use of a tunnel boring machine, the SAS will be lower than the plans called for in the seventies. Since it will be lower, perhaps it doesn't make sense to tie in the already built segment, which appears to be close to the surface, because of the grades involved. Only speculation, though.
The problem probably is the roller-coaster ride the Second Ave. tracks would have to take between Houston St. and Chatam Square.
At Houston, the mezzanine for the Second Ave. station on the F/V lines is one level below ground, as are the tracks going from Grand St. to B'way-Lafayette for the B/D trains, as is the track coming from Essex Street that the KK train used. Two levels below ground are the tracks for the F and V trains, along with the Willie B-bound track the KK used, so any Second Ave. tunnel would either have to be at least three levels below ground there, or one level below ground, but veering south towards Forsyth St. on the other side of Sarah Delano Roosevelt Park. It would stay to the south of the B/D and KK tracks, but would bisect the Second Ave. station's mezzanine.
The you get to Delancey. The J/M/Z tracks are two levels below ground there, while the track coming from B'way-Lafayette to Essex ducks three levels below ground to go beneath it. The B/D tracks are still one level below ground, but the dive down a level for the Grand Street station.
If the Second Ave. tracks ran down Forsyth, they could also go over the J/M/Z tracks, but there would be no way to get the downtown track shifted to the north of the B/D tracks to have the standard island platform transfer arrangement at Grand. On the other hand, if the Second Ave. tracks were tunneled below the B/D on Chrystie, they'd have to go three levels below those tracks at one point (four levels below the street) to allow the tunnel connecting to the Essex St. station to pass below the J/M/Z tracks, then quickly rise two levels to meet the B/D at Grand.
Those tracks then rise up to meet the Manny B south of Canal, so the Second Ave. tracks could stay at the same level there and pass below the bridge tracks on the way to Chatham Square, but they'd still have to duck down a bit at Canal, because the tracks carrying the Q/W trains plunge quickly coming off the bridge, dropping from ground level just before Canal to three levels below ground by the time they cross Centre Street.
All that is a long way of saying if the tracks are kept three to four levels below ground they'll be more level and the obstacles willbe far fewer in that area.
(The problem probably is the roller-coaster ride the Second Ave. tracks would have to take between Houston St. and Chatam Square.)
Nassau Street option, even if either some of the Second Avenue trains or some of the Broadway-Brooklyn trains would have to terminate at Chambers Street, requiring a transfer to get all the way Downtown.
Recall my LIRR to Downtown solution -- having 12 tph on the Nassau Street line/Montingue Tunnel terminate in Atlantic Terminal, for the benefit of LIRR riders, after having branched off. That could the be a line of the Second Avenue Subway.
I agree, Larry, and I've said before that if they ever do get the 125th/Lex-63rd segement completed, the second segment that should be started is 63rd St. to Delancey/Grand. The two segments are roughly the same distance, about 3 1/2 miles, and if the funds ran out (which they always do with Second Ave.) the MTA would still have the Nassau St. option to get the trains into lower Manhattan.
the MTA would still have the Nassau St. option to get the trains into lower Manhattan.
I don't know why the Nassau St option is portrayed so much as a last resort thing - IMHO it would provide a better service, as it would give a one seat ride from Brooklyn to 2nd Avenue.
The Nassau St option would provide a TRANSFER to Brooklyn-bound trains, not a one seat ride unless you have some major reconstruction south of Chambers St.
Chambers St. Track Map
Cut and paste the link
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/cityhall.gif
Wow, that map shows a lot of unused stuff! :)
Not major at all - 2nd Avenue would be connected to the former Manny B tracks at Chambers (i.e. the current Queens-bound platform), whilst the tracks from the Willy B would still use the Brooklyn-bound platform. Whichever continues to Brooklyn would require the MINOR job of attatching the tail track South of Chambers to one or other of the through tracks, if both lines were running at capacity.
The fact is NEITHER line would be running at capacity. 2nd Avenue would have a MAXIMUM of 30tph minus 63rd St service, as the MTA's plans only call for a flat junction from 2nd Avenue South to 63rd Street East, meaning it is probably only intended for non-revenue moves. I think we all know how frequently the J/M/Z runs too. This would mean a straightforward merge North of Chambers Street could be a solution, requiring precisely ZERO reconstruction South of Chambers St.
If J, M, Z, and for sake of argument T were too much for the two tracks through Fulton St, the obvious solution with ZERO recongfiguration of junctions is:
J/Z as present
M Forest Hills - 53rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Broadway Brooklyn Lcl - Myrtle - Metropolitan
T 125/Lex - 2nd Av - 4th Av Brooklyn Lcl - 9th Av (- Bay Parkway Peak Hours)
I suggest you look at the track map of North of Chambers St, which you will find here.
It could be done even eaiser than readjusting the tail tracks at Chambers if a Second Ave. line was built in the future -- just reopen the soon-to-be-closed Willie B-bound platforms at Bowery and Canal, realign the tracks between Essex and Bowery so that trains terminating at Chambers would use the middle tracks, while those continuing on to Broad St. or to DeKalb would use the outer tracks, as with the current set-up. Then tie the Second Ave. tracks into the Nassau loop, either between Essex and Bowery or between Bowery and Canal.
I see the "cost effectiveness" reason not to fund the SAS as an excuse. Still, as the Nassau Street discussion indicates, one wonders if there isn't some gold plating going on.
With the LIRR to GCT, we know that the MTA has doubled the cost of the improvment just to provide the LIRR with a separate waiting area and yard, sucking funds away from the SAS. Is a similar level of excess going on with the SAS itself?
For example, most subway riders have to go up and down stairs, with elevators being installed for the handicapped. Will the new SAS stations have all access via escalator, and how much will that cost. NYC subway stations do not have air conditioning. Will the SAS stations have air conditioning?
Perhap if it is going to be a luxury service, it should be paid for in part the way the Rockaway Line was paid for -- with an extra fare for a period of time.
"For example, most subway riders have to go up and down stairs, with elevators being installed for the handicapped. Will the new SAS stations have all access via escalator, and how much will that cost. NYC subway stations do not have air conditioning. Will the SAS stations have air conditioning? "
The Lex platforms at GCT have air conditioning. It has gone over well with the traveling public. The question is whether this very recent experiment can be replicated elsewhere.
Obviously, it will be easier to design AC into a station before it is built.
while the A/C at GCT is nice, having an SAS before I am nursing home food or dead is prioity one IMHO. In my view, the duct provisions, electrical capacity for A/C can be built in much as the 'extra' stairwells so famous in early IND work, without the full cost preventing the whole project. As to escalators everywhere, victims of DC-Metro can tell you how lame this idea is. They insisted on overly deep tunneling on most routes thus "necessitationg' very long escalators. This is counter productive, 1. wasted electricity, 2, major inconvenience when OOS--which is common, 3. WASTES time!. IRT and BMT lines in Manhattan exenplify the quick walk down or up to/from platform level which speeds travel.
Well, if you want to kibosh the whole thing south of 63rd, then you put a single price cost on the entire section from there to Hanover Square and tell everyone it either goes to Hanover or it doesn't go at all.
Leaving open the option of going via Nassau St. means you eliminate about 1 1/2 miles of the five miles of construction between 63rd and Hanover Square. Cutting the construction zone by 30 percent would presumably also cut between 25 and 30 percent off the construction costs -- but that option's open then the justification for killing the entire five-mile project is tougher to make.
As far as the escallators, the depth of the stations would have a lot to do with whether or not they're necessary. Other than the required ADA deisgns, eliminating or severely cutting back the stairs and putting in escallations for stations that are one to three levels below ground is a luxury. Below that, a deep-bore tunnel, similar to those stations already in the system, like Grand Central on the 7 or 53rd-Lex on the E/V do need escallators because of their extreme depths.
As for the AC in stations, so long as the deep ones have decent ventallation, there's no need for it. Some of the coolest stations in the summer on the existing system are the deepest ones in the system. It's the shallower stations that tend to have the most problems with heat (and of course the larger the crowds at those stations the worse the heating, with the waterproofed Contract 1 stations on the IRT having the bigget problem).
As far as the escallators, the depth of the stations would have a lot to do with whether or not they're necessary. Other than the required ADA deisgns, eliminating or severely cutting back the stairs and putting in escallations for stations that are one to three levels below ground is a luxury. Below that, a deep-bore tunnel, similar to those stations already in the system, like Grand Central on the 7 or 53rd-Lex on the E/V do need escallators because of their extreme depths.
Elevators are still required to meet ADA requirements in escalator-equipped stations.
I know. I was inferring that under the "ADA required designs" part of the sentence. Any new Second Ave. stations will have to have elevators, but only the deepest ones would really need to have escallators put in.
Any platform within 40 feet (three levels) of the street will work just fine with a series of stairs and mezzanines or landings if it's a way to get the project done at a lower cost.
(Leaving open the option of going via Nassau St. means you eliminate about 1 1/2 miles of the five miles of construction between 63rd and Hanover Square. Cutting the construction zone by 30 percent would presumably also cut between 25 and 30 percent off the construction costs -- but that option's open then the justification for killing the entire five-mile project is tougher to make.)
When I e-mailed my preference for the Nassau Street option, on cost grounds, the Second Avenue team responded that there wouldn't be much of a savings, due to the need to expand the platforms from 480 to 600 feet (are they really that short?). Another alternative would be to run eight car trains down the line south of 63rd Street, and run more of them -- a greater cost in the long run, but cheaper in the short run. In the long run, perhaps one could expand the platforms.
Then again, the Water Street option might have been selected to satisfy the RPA by keeping the option of building a new tunnel, to connect with a super-express line for the suburban commuters from Jamaica (via LIRR Atlantic Ave branch) open. The Mayor also mentioned a new tunnel. But the RPA wanted a connection to the Nassau Loop as well, for subway service through to Brooklyn.
Would upgrading the platforms on the Nassau Street Line cost THAT much, compared to building over a mile of new tunnel, with new stations and all that? At some point in the future, wouldn't we want the Nassau Street/Broadway El line to upgraded? This could be a start on that.
Also, a related question, which I suppose is relevant depending on which yard is the home of the SAS fleet (although equipment could, of course, be moved around), namely: Can the Nassau Street line handle 75-foot cars? As a follow-up to that question, what are the prospects for seeing NYC Subway order new 75-foot cars anytime soon for some future class of trains?
They are 480 feet, and lengthening the island platforms at Chambers and Canal might cost a little bit, since the "local" tracks would have to be realigned. But the Fulton and Broad extensions would just be a matter of carving out an addition 120 feet of side platform (It would be interesting to see what the cost was in 1950/1960 dollars for the platform extensions on the IRT local platforms and the BMT B'way/Southern Division lines and compare that to what it would cost today).
It's hard to fathom how that would equal the cost of 1 1/2 miles of brand new tunnel, stations, fare control areas, ADA-mandated elevators, etc., and sounds more like a convienent explanation for sending the line down Water Street (which would serve a the currently under-served Water St. office corridor and would be a better route if the money's there to build it. But if it's not, then running the line via Nassau St., even with eight car trains, would be no different an adjustment than sending the Queens Blvd. F trains through the 63rd St. tunnel, instead of the original super-express route to Forest Hills that was planned back in 1970).
(But the Fulton and Broad extensions would just be a matter of carving out an addition 120 feet of side platform )
Fulton St could be very complicated because Nassau St is so narrow. The southbound platform is above the northbound track, and the northbound platform is below the southbound track. But this 2-level arrangement ends immediately south and north of the platforms, with the track returning to the same level. You might have to terminate the JMZ at Chambers for a year while Fulton was rebuilt.
even if either some of the Second Avenue trains or some of the Broadway-Brooklyn trains would have to terminate at Chambers Street, requiring a transfer to get all the way Downtown.
Alternatively replace the (V) train with an (M) train or a (J)/(Z) train on 6th Avenue.
Alternatively replace the (V) train with an (M) train or a (J)/(Z) train on 6th Avenue.
Then how would customers know if they're going to Queens or to Queens? I can see the zoo at Essex now.
(Alternatively replace the (V) train with an (M) train or a (J)/(Z) train on 6th Avenue. Then how would customers know if they're going to Queens or to Queens? I can see the zoo at Essex now.)
Everytime I've been to Essex, it's been a zoo. Whenever there is blockage on the Cranberry Route and the A/C is rerouted via Rutgers, all the IND riders going to Lower Manhattan push up a narrow stair as all the J/M/Z riders going to Midtown push their way down. It's hell.
Whenever there is blockage on the Cranberry Route and the A/C is rerouted via Rutgers, all the IND riders going to Lower Manhattan push up a narrow stair as all the J/M/Z riders going to Midtown push their way down. It's hell.
All the more reason to bring back Chrystie/Willy B service.
In the mean time, one great help is the new connection that just opened up this past weekend from the Manhattan bound Essex platform to the new mezzanine, which in turn leads to both the uptown and downtown F. You wouldn't have known it was there with the blue wooden wall that there, but they removed part of it to open the new stairs.
I don't know what they plan to do for the Queensbound side access, but they are redoing one of the stairs from the uptown F.
Still, they should look into the Chrystie St. service again for weekends at least when not as many people are heading downtown. With a Bleecker uptown connection, those using it to transfer to the Lexington could also go that way.
is this really new, or just reopened?
The connection to the BMT platform is brand new. I guess the mezzanine was reopened, or just redone. I never used it, but there were always the stairs on the F platform on the north side of the open area leading to the old stairs.
I was there today. Wow! The IND mezzanine is a few steps down from the SB BMT platform. The old winding staircases are still open, but I assume their days are numbered. I wouldn't be surprised if the BMT fare control area is eliminated.
There don't seem to be any plans to do something similar on the NB BMT platform -- if nothing else, there's a track in the way, and the passageways aren't as badly positioned down on the IND platforms.
What I would like to see, once the Canal realignment is complete, is restored access to the BMT entrance on the south side of Delancey, with a removable bridge over the side track, which will then not be in regular use (unless a K-like service is revived).
Incidentally, did you see the brand new sign in the IND mezzanine? It has J J Z bullets. That's right, J J Z.
If the V were to be combined with the J/Z, that might be true. But I doubt that would happen if the V and M were combined, because the M makes only four stops in Queens. Signs can simply say "(V) (or (M)) to Metropolitan Ave" in one direction and "To Forest Hills-71 Ave" in the other. Forest Hills-bound trains can be announced as Queens-bound and Metro-bound trains can be announced as Brooklyn-bound.
(The you get to Delancey. The J/M/Z tracks are two levels below ground there, while the track coming from B'way-Lafayette to Essex ducks three levels below ground to go beneath it. The B/D tracks are still one level below ground, but the dive down a level for the Grand Street station.)
The track map on this site shows the B/D as passing above the JMZ. Do you know for a fact that the map is wrong?
R-62A's, the Bombardier ones.
I rode on a 17xx R-62A #3 last night at Penn Station last night. It had the new floors and you could smell the newsness of it, so it had to been just released for service.
Who is doing the floors ? 207th St or Coney Island shops ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Will any of the new flooring be installed for the R62A's the 7 is using?
All car will get new floors with in do time. As for who doing them, I think old 207st yard is doing the work. I could be wrong with this, so if some one else know plase post.
Robert
I've noticed on the R-62s (not sure about the R62As) that in many cars the paint is peeling off the ceilings. This is not surprising; I know the cars are twenty years old. But it wouldn't hurt to touch this up as the silverbirds begin the second half of their life. -Nick
Yeah, the same thing is happening to the R68s. Especially around the lineal diffusers.
Peace,
ANDEE
To be honest, I don't know why the R62/A class is referred to as the 'Silverbirds.' In reality, they didn't replace the Redbirds, it was the R142/A's now. Or, am I getting this wrong? :)
I, personally, do not refer to theme as silverbirds. That is a moniker that some people here have tried to assign to them (unsuccessfuly, IMO). I don't like it, after all when you come right down to it all cars would be silverbirds. I refer to all car classes by their R numbers, except the rustbirds which will soon be gone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good analysis. I've just thought of them as R62/A's as well!
CI Main Shop is doing the R68's, the others (R42M/K and R62A) at 207 Main Shop.
I beleive that set is 1781-85. AFAIK, 1781-90 have the black flooring. There are a few singles with black floor as well. 2033 come to mind.
Da Beastmaster
Add 1686-1690.
When your seniority is in the dumps, you get flooring rehab in 207th.
Some like that work...simple, no brainers. Last pick was cancelled. 207th overhaul is last assignment before wierd hours/days. I'm keeping troubles/backfill. CI Peter
Here's a press release from the MBTA:
MBTA to Reintroduce Low-Floor Type 8 Vehicles
Monday, March 24, 2003
Release Date: 3/21/2003
The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) is pleased to announce the reintroduction of its AnsaldoBreda Green Line cars into revenue service beginning Monday, March 24, 2003. For the first time since August 2001, the low-floor vehicles will be in operation on the B branch of the Green Line.
Last week, the Department of Telecommunications and Energy (DTE) gave the green light for the reintroduction after the T completed an extensive 15-month study of the vehicle’s design, upgraded the Green Line track, and tested the vehicle with 5,000 miles of incident-free operation.
To introduce the vehicles back into service smoothly, the MBTA will put eight cars on the B branch of the Green Line, and continue to work with the DTE toward operating the Breda cars on the D, C, and E branches of the Green Line as well.
“I am confident that we are now on a course toward operating low-floor cars throughout the entire Green Line,” said MBTA General Manager Michael H. Mulhern. “Most importantly, the low-floor cars will allow persons with disabilities to board without using special lifts.”
The Breda car was designed to address accessibility on the Green Line and bring the MBTA into compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. (ADA) By the end of 2004, the MBTA expects to place all 100 Breda low-floor cars into service.
Woo-hoo! Well it's about time! I'm planning to take another trip to Boston, and hopefully I'll get to ride them when I go. I hope they finally get them on track this time.
Todd, that's great news. I hope they have solved all of the problems and can stay on the tracks. I imagine the TA is confident after all that testing.
Keep us updated, thanks!
Chuck Greene
A person was struck by a train, most likely on the Blue Line, at the Potomac Avenue Station this morning. My understanding is that the station did not close at any point. Normal service has resumed on the Blue and Orange lines.
"A person was struck by a train, most likely on the Blue Line, at the Potomac Avenue Station this morning. My understanding is that the station did not close at any point."
Didn't miss a beat, eh? You sure it wasn't just Superman helping a train that had lost its emergency brakes?
:0)
No Point in making a big deal of it.
Just toss the remains back up onto the platform betwen trains.
Elias
As I suggested in another post, observing photographers' behavior can help determine whether or not they are a danger to our city. A panel of three railfans watching observation camera could give a numeric score to suspects where 0 means "intense foamer" and 10 is "a terrorist for sure."
But how do we weed out the ones in between? I suggest they fill out a multiple choice questionaire which will show their true railfan colors.
1. What does R36 describe?
a. The car class between R35 and R37
b. An expensive aquarium off the Carolina coast
c. A popular and difficult to detect plastic explosive
d. A great photo op.
2. My favorite "Al" is:
a. Al Sharpton
b. Al Lewis
c. Al Queda
d. The Third Avenue Al
3. If I visit HeyPaul's apartment, I will notice:
a. A tasteful 19th century Ottoman
b. An R9 motorman's cab
c. A 1/87 scale representation of Culver Depot
d. BMTman
4. A frequent poster on SubTalk is:
a. Culver Cal
b. Sea Beach Fred
c. Lexington Avenue Lou
d. Sea Beach Saddam
5. The desire to threaten the MTA indicates:
a. A member of Al Queda
b. A member of the Straphanger's Campaign
c. A moderate New York City Republican
d. Any of the above
6. I would love to see a "mystery photo" of:
a. The Brighton Line before 1904
b. 76th Street Station
c. Osama bin Laden's underwear collection
d. Brittney Spears
Sharpen your pencils!
I picked 3 a!
Am I right or wrong?
Oh lord! Too funny, Paul.
Peace,
ANDEE
What happenned? Paul' post made ya change your underwear? :)
I think that it would be rather simple for NYCT to issue photo ID cards to those hobbiest who as request them. (Perhaps at a fee... why not, since there *is* some expense nvolved.
Tourists can take their chances with the Terrorists.
Elias
My answers:
C, C, A, D, B, D (if nude, B otherwise)
Jesus, I almost fell out of my chair! ROTFLMAO!
Well, it was hard, but here's my answers:
1. d
2. b
3. c (the obvious answer was toooo easy for me)
4. b
5. d
6. b (well you know I'm a sucker for the Brighton line)
So, Paul is there a prize for 100% correct? Maybe a valuable collector's item like Edward Luciano's brake handle, perhaps?
Let's make question 3 a little harder
3. If I visit HeyPaul's apartment, I will notice:
a. A tasteful 19th century Ottoman
b. An R9 motorman's cab
c. A 1/87 scale representation of Culver Depot
d. BMTman
e. A Skooter Car Rink
What? Is that the latest addition to your every growing collection?
Is *THAT* what you did with the traction motors you removed from that Arnine? :)
You forgot
f. Rob Petrie tripping over the Ottoman.
KOOL >GG< 8-) Sparky
Oh my god...I haven't laughed that hard in about 3 years! After calming down, though, I tried to come up with the answers...
D, D, C, B, D...
Is there such a place as 76th Street Station? If there is, I pick B for the last one. If not, it's a tie between A and D...I can't choose, I can't...
Question 1 should also have: A contract for a fleet of the same name. Also, crossing over to BusTalk, under My Favorite Al should be BIG AL, Fresh Pond Depot dispatcher. My answers in order would be: d, d, b, b, b, (NO COMMENT!)
3350 F
9562 #7
Among favorite Al's Paul also omitted Subway Al...
1. a
2. b
3. b
4. b
5. b
6. b
1. What does R36 describe?
a. The car class between R35 and R37
b. An expensive aquarium off the Carolina coast
c. A popular and difficult to detect plastic explosive
d. A great photo op.
All choices are incorrect. The correct answer is insulation
2. My favorite "Al" is:
a. Al Sharpton
b. Al Lewis
c. Al Queda
d. The Third Avenue Al
All choices are incorrect. The correct answer is Al Michaels
--Mark
1. D
2. D
3. B
4. B
5. C (ALWAYS THE CASE WITH THE NY STATE SENATE)
6. A (YOU KNOW I PREFER THAT OVER 76TH ST.)
Any questions?
1. d; 2. e - Subway Al; 3. b,d,e; 4. b; 5. d; 6. b. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The Cascade laudry factory in Brooklyn had a major meltdown this morning... service on the G Brooklyn Queens Crosstown,and B54 bus has been halted in the area....there were a few injuries [two people lost their leggs].As of this moment,the area is blocked off to ALL[traffic,peds].
...and this is transit related, how?
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS, sorry, didn't mean to post,
From what I gather it happened outside the station at Myrtle-Willoughby on the G line. Probably they figured it might affect the subway and the Myrtle Avw bus.
it's okay,dude....the G train's shut down here,and the bus are going around.So it is transit related...the problem happened above the Myrtle/Marcy train station.....
A friend mailed me a copy of a new book for young readers. The book, The New York Subways by Lesley A DuTemple is published by Lerner Publications, and is copyright 2003.
This is an 80 pg hardcover book, which traces the history and construction of the New York subways from the very beginning, but in a capsule form.
I have flipped through it, but have not read it yet. There are numerous pictures of interest. The book is written for the junior hs or maybe early hs student.
It looks very intersting to me, and would seem to be a quick way for a new fan to learn about New York's subway system.
Is it available in the GCT Transit Museum gift shop? -Nick
I don't think this book would be in the Transit Museum Gift Shop, but I guess anything is possible. I have the feeling that this book may have been published as a type of supplementary school text. The publisher only deals with libraries and schools.
The publisher is...
Lerner Publications Company
A division of Lerner Publishing Group
241 First Avenue North
Minneapolis MN 55401
www.lernerbooks.com
800-328-4929
A brief description of the book can be found here
That link has a blurb which states: "...although no longer the largest system in the world...". WHAT?! It isn't the largest subway system anymore? Who the hell has a larger one???
If NYC no longer has the world's largest subway system, which city has the largest system? Hooterville? Pixlie? Mayberry?
How about Paris? Moscow? London? Tokyo? Seoul? Hong Kong? Berlin? Rio de Janiero? Brasilia?
Alright so maybe those last ones don't rival the New York system, but then when's the last time the NYCTA expanded? Do you think the Archer Ave extention really gave you a huge boost in milage when compared to the Jubilee line? It's one thing to be number 1 and stagnant, but quite another to be number five and expanding
Do you think the Archer Ave extention really gave you a huge boost in milage
Wasn't it actually a decrease in mileage from the old Jamaica El?
I think that book is probably either playing the route mileage card or counting things like the NLL, WLL and SR slow services to make London seem bigger.
Hey, cheer up, guys. At least NYC has the largest commuter railroad in the US: the LIRR!
LIRR may be the BUSIEST in terms of amount of trains run or passengers carried.
If you want to see some commuter train distance, Southern California's Metrolink probably has the longest distance. Lancaster to Los Angeles, 76.6 miles -- and then Los Angeles to Oceanside 86.4 miles. You CAN ride that entire length (163.0 miles) in one five-hour trek too. Just catch the first train out of Lancaster in the morning, and when it gets to LA it then becomes the Oceanside train (most trains at Metrolink work two or more lines in their day's scheduling). Getting back is a different story, connections are tight (no interlines).
Really? I got that info from NYCRail... I guess they should change it.
>>> I got that info from NYCRail... I guess they should change it. <<<
The problem is that "largest" is ambiguous. You could also say that Los Angeles is larger than NYC if you consider land area. LIRR runs far more trains and more total passenger miles than MetroLink, so the LIRR would generally be considered the larger system.
Tom
How does Metrolink compare to the LIRR in track miles? The LIRR has a number of parallel lines.
>>> How does Metrolink compare to the LIRR in track miles? <<<
I do not know about track miles, but the MetroLink has 512 route miles on 7 routes compared to the LIRR's 710, 57 stations compared to 124 for the LIRR. MetroLink runs 138 weekday trains carrying an average of 34,035 riders each weekday. Service is greatly reduced on Saturday, and closed on Sunday. If you consider 21 weekdays per month (not counting holidays) that is about 8.6 million riders per year. This compares to 86.1 million riders on the LIRR in 2001.
Tom
(If you want to see some commuter train distance, Southern California's Metrolink probably has the longest distance. Lancaster to Los Angeles, 76.6 miles -- and then Los Angeles to Oceanside 86.4 miles.)
In New York, you can ride from Montauk to Philadelphia with one change of trains, which is a longer distance. Both routes are heavily used by daily commuters. And you can then even spend a few hours in Philly and go back.
"(If you want to see some commuter train distance, Southern California's Metrolink probably has the longest distance. Lancaster to Los Angeles, 76.6 miles -- and then Los Angeles to Oceanside 86.4 miles.)
In New York, you can ride from Montauk to Philadelphia with one change of trains, which is a longer distance. Both routes are heavily used by daily commuters. And you can then even spend a few hours in Philly and go back."
Outside the USA, I know, but Thameslink's direct service from Bedford (where I live) through central London to Brighton on the south coast is 100 miles, and has a 15-minute headway (4 tph) for much of the day. It takes about 2.5 hours each way. A trip worth taking if any fan of the Brighton Beach line in NYC happens to be in London on a visit! Incidentally the trains are OPTO, and they switch between catenary and third-rail at Farringdon.
Everyone is keeps connecting seperate systems together to get these long routes. Metrolink to Oceanside, and Coaster to San Diego is tecnically two seperate systems. Just like New York to New Haven with MN and NH to New London with Shoreline.
I think Montauk to New York is one of the largest, if not the largest commuter distance trains, on a single system.
>>> Metrolink to Oceanside,and Coaster to San Diego is tecnically two seperate systems. <<<
But MetroLink to Oceanside (86+ mi), and MetroLink to Lancaster (76+ mi) are the same commuter system. The Lancaster run is wholly within Los Angeles County.
Tom
Everyone is keeps connecting seperate systems together to get these long routes. Metrolink to Oceanside, and Coaster from Oceanside to San Diego is technically two seperate systems. Just like New York to New Haven with MN and NH to New London with Shoreline.
I think Montauk to New York is one of the largest, if not the largest commuter distance trains, on a single system.
On the one-change commuter train game, I'd suggest the longest one would probably be:
Birmingham New Street
Silverlink to
Watford Junction
Connex Govia (where do they think these names up?!?) South Central to
Brighton
Thameslink's direct service from Bedford (where I live) through central London to Brighton on the south coast is 100 miles, and has a 15-minute headway (4 tph) for much of the day.
It's a very worthwhile service, but it's annoying how every one of those trains takes THREE slots out of London Bridge. Not efficient track planning! They'd do better to send the trains via Tulse Hill or massively rebuild London Bridge station.
A trip worth taking if any fan of the Brighton Beach line in NYC happens to be in London on a visit!
I think they'd prefer the half-hourly Brighton Express from Victoria (Brighton station). You know these New Yorkers and their expresses...
and they switch between catenary and third-rail at Farringdon.
Alternatively they fail to switch and block the two-track section of the line. Third rail should be extended to at least Kentish Town (I think that's where the first switches are on the Midland Main Line), so that it doesn't bugger things up so much.
Heh heh, he said Hooterville.
Maybe someone's been watching Green Acres and Petticoat Junction on TV Land.
NYC hasn't had the largest system for some time now. IIRC, Moscow and Tokyo are larger.
Peace,
ANDEE
Too bad. I guess politics is too much of an influence in transit for any real expansion... Whatever they say, goes!
Nah, when the wind shifts, they never said that or they were mischaracterized. In the WORST case, it was merely a youthful indiscretion. :)
You're quite the optomist, aren't you Selly? :)
Sorry, my FIRST close encounter with politics and their practitioners came at the age of 8 when I worked the campaign in Riverdale (Bronx) for Jonathan Bingham for Congress ... been trapped up in politics and reporting it ever since. I have YET to meet a gasbag that wasn't pursuaded by the prevailing wind direction. At least Ted TURNER needed a cigar to figure out which way the winds were blowing, politicos have pollsters, spin doctors and focus groups. Chalk my attitude up to experience. :)
I think New York still has the largest system in terms of raw track milage, because of the express tracks in the system that other cities don't have. But take away the express tracks and just count each line on its own, and there are several systems that have more actual miles.
Depends. In terms of miles of tracks, we're the biggest. In terms of total ridership, Tokyo, Moscow and perhaps London's is bigger.
"In terms of total ridership, Tokyo, Moscow and perhaps London's is bigger."
London's ridership is a lot smaller. The trains in London are sardine-crammed, but they are mostly only six cars, eight on the busiest lines. It is only in route miles (not track miles) that the London Underground is larger than the NYC Subway.
The trains in London are sardine-crammed
On the Bakerloo line they only seem to be full "South" of Paddington and sardine-crammed South of Baker Street. They also seem to empty out a lot at Waterloo.
"The trains in London are sardine-crammed
On the Bakerloo line they only seem to be full "South" of Paddington and sardine-crammed South of Baker Street. They also seem to empty out a lot at Waterloo"
O.K. I exaggerated - it is mostly on the central London portions of the lines that hey are very crowded. One reason for the the lower ridership of the London system compared with New York is the fact that most residential areas of London are relatively low-rise with lots of single-family houses. Hence lesser loadings beyond Baker Street (or Paddington, anyway) on the Bakerloo and similar situations on other lines.
How many of those cities go outside city limits?
Still, we could try and reach our western border better.
I meant eastern.
London Metropolitan Line extends 26 miles from Baker Street to suburban Amersham. Some suburban trains in Tokyo has thru running with the subway.
London Metropolitan Line extends 26 miles from Baker Street to suburban Amersham.
Actually, Amersham's only 23 miles 70 chains from Baker St. Chesham's 25 miles 61 chains though.
Why is it that chaining in the NY subway doesn't use actual chains and instead uses pseudo-metric hectofeet? If they want the Metric system, they should just COMPLETELY SWITCH OVER!
I also think the decimile markers on New York State highways should instead be replaced by furlong markers.
Marge: I'm Marge Simpson, and I have an idea.
Everyone: Aw, no. Marge is going to say something. etc.
Marge: Now, I know you haven't liked some of my past suggestions,
like switching to the metric system --
Abe: [stammers a little] The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it.
Is this from the Monorail episode, where the Springfield monorail cars are from the 1964 New York Worlds Fair?
Nope....
[2F31] A Star is Burns
Original airdate in N.A.: 5-Mar-95
But you are right about the monorail, read this from snpp.com:
The 1964 World's Fair
Randy Lambertus @{rl} gives us a brief history lesson:
\C
The 1964 World's Fair was held in Flushing Meadows (a suburb of New
York City proper), and it did feature a monorail in the `Amusements'
area, on the south side. The monorail was sponsored by AMF, the
bowling people. But unlike the one pictured in the episode, the cars
hung from an overhead rail. [Another important difference is that the
World's Fair monorail cruised at a mind-boggling 1/2 mile per hour.]
There were two tracks, with the trains running in opposite directions.
It was an additional-cost item, not included in the general admission.
It wandered along the outline of the `Amusements' and took a couple of
minutes to traverse the entire length of track. The overall color of
the units were white with red trim, the AMF triangle at the front and
back of each end.
Near it was the UniRoyal Ferris wheel, a giant tire. I believe it was
moved to Uniroyal headquarters in Michigan? minus the ferris wheel
guts.
The 1964-65 New York World's Fair ran from April to October in the
years 1964 and 1965. When the fair closed almost all the attractions
were removed. The only stuff left is the New York City pavilion
(really from the 1939-40 fair), the NY State pavilion (now badly
decomposed), the Singer Bowl (used for concerts, still?), the
Unisphere (symbol of the fair) the Westinghouse time capsules from
1939 and 1964 (under a monument), the Vatican marker for the display
of Michealangelo's Pieta, the Port of Authority building (used as a
heliport during the fair), and the Science Museum (called Rocket Park
now?), oh yes, and Shea Stadium, and I think the Florida building on
the lagoon (originally Billy Rose's Aquacade in the 1939 fair).
\eC
David M. Stein @{dms} continues the story:
\C
While AMF sponsored the monorail, it was designed and built by a
California engineering firm which was named WED.
WED Stood for Walter Elias Disney... the engineering wing of Disney.
That monorail ended up at Disneyland after the fair. If I remember
that set of monorails was retired in the late 60's. The guy would
have had to have gotten the thing from Disney.
There were several other exhibits WED designed and built for other
companies. Namely Kodak (``It's a Small World''), GM ``An Evening
with Mr. Lincoln'' (the first of the ``Hall of Presidents'')
and General Electric's ``Carousel of Progress''.
\eC
Flushing Meadows is a suburb of New York City proper?
Well, it was certainly considered a suburb at one time...
But that was until the beginning of 1898!
In 1964?
I wasn't saying that what I posted was fact. I was just saying that the previous poster was correct about the Simpsons Monorail being the one from the 1964 World's Fair.
---Brian
>>> Flushing Meadows is a suburb of New York City proper? <<<
C'mon David, although it is politically incorrect to mention it, those of use who have lived in "the City" know in our hearts that the other four boroughs are lesser satellites of New York City proper. :-)
Tom
"C'mon David, although it is politically incorrect to mention it, those of use who have lived in "the City" know in our hearts that the other four boroughs are lesser satellites of New York City proper.:-)"
Yep. Those "other four boroughs" being Queens, Bronx, Staten Island and Manhattan.
Hmmm, Flushing Meadows.
London officially uses kilometres, zeroed at the buffer blocks at Ongar station (which closed in 1994).
However, real miles and chains are unofficial relics on the stretches Baker St - Amersham, Chesham, Watford, and Uxbridge, Finchley Rd - Stanmore (all from Baker St), 12 chains West of Leyton to Epping (and Ongar), Newbury Park - Woodford Junction (both from Liverpool St LNER), Highgate - Mill Hill East, and High Barnet (both from King's X LNER), Gunnersbury - Richmond, East Putney - Wimbledon (both from Waterloo SR), and Bromley & Bow - Upminster (LTSR).
A useless fact is that, whereas miles and chains on the Metropolitan line zeroed at Baker Street (and ran Northwards), the Great Central Main Line which runs on the same ROW runs Southwards (IIRC from Woodhouse Junction, near Sheffield). This has a rather bizarre look on paper with Met miles in single figures along GCR miles in the 200s!
How many of those cities go outside city limits?
Still, we could try and reach our eastern border better.
I guess it depends on how you define the largest. The largest what? Cars in fleet, total annual passengers, route miles, track miles laid? It's like asking what's the largest state- Population or Area.
Michael
Hey now, it was bad enough when L.A. took over as the second largest "city" in the country from Chicago.
We all know L.A. is not really a city, just a lot of people wanting to be actors in Hollywood and enjoying good weather.
Metra has more route miles then Metrolink, doesn't it???
All of our 11 main lines extend atleast to Zone E, 20-25 miles, with the exception of the South Chicago & Blue Island Branches on the Electric line being shorter. But then you also have some longer lines like the MD-N to Fox Lake, UP-NW to Harvard, UP-N to Kenosha, and NCS to Antioch. Let's also not forget the South Shore Line. It kinda counts for Metra because Metra subsidises the Chicago portion. It is our longest commuter route, just under 90 miles from Randolph St. to South Bend, Indiana.
I agree with some other posts that the NYC subway doesn't need expansion, but rather renovation first. The system is really beautiful in some of the renovated stations.
The CTA is the second largest rapid-transit system in the country and hopefully will stay that way. Similar to NYC, the CTA needs some major renovations before expansion should begin. However I never thought they would receive all that money for the Blue and Brown Line renovations. Still amazes me the complexity and amount of work going into the Douglas/Cermak branch of the blue line. If the brown line work begins as planned later this year, Clark Jct. gets completed, Purple line gets slow zones eliminated and the structure around Wilson is renovated, it is scary to think the whole system might be in a good state of repair. Then who knows, we might even see the blue line going west of O'Hare to Schaumburg or Yellow Line to Old Orchard.
According to LA Metrolink webpage, it has 512 miles of track. Metra (from official webpage) has 495 miles of track. Add another 90 miles for the Chicago, South Shore, And South Bend railroad.
Los Angeles Metrolink carries about 35,000 commuters daily vs. 300,000 Metra passengers.
You are right about LA not really being a city. It does not have the cosmopolitan urban feel of NYC and Chicago. Los Angeles has twice the land area of Chicago, so while LA might be more populated, it does not have the density of Chicago.
Speaking of L.A. it is really a shame what they did with the red line.
The small portion that is now open and will probably be the only "subway" LA sees for many years is nice, but is simply to small.
Have they ever considered going above ground for Red Line extensions?? The other light-rail lines do this very well. I don't think the voters would approve any kind of elevated structure similar to the way they voted down subway expansion. However, has the MTA ever thought of sharing an embankment with Metrolink or freight rail-roads for future extensions???
It just amazes me how well BART and public transit exist in San Francisco and L.A. still has that feel that if you don't have a car you might as well be homeless. I guess what your saying about the land mass is right though. I have been trying to explain to my friends for years that San Francisco has more big city flavor and transit then L.A. despite it's small size. It is funny though, something weird like Jacksonville, Florida is the biggest land-mass city in the USA. I believe LA also has more land-mass then NYC, but then so does Jacksonville!!
I think that middle-class and upper-middle class neighborhoods have a lot to do with well used public transit systems and lively neighborhoods. I think for instance that LA and it's MTA suffer because LA mainly has a big ghetto and super rich people living in the burbs. No neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville in Chicago exists in LA. There's no life with people walking around, shopping, eating, riding the transit, etc..
I don't know if I'm saying correctly what I mean. You need areas like almost all of NYC and many areas in Chicago where people get out of their cars, walk around, and socialize. This gives a city a feel of being a big, hutstling, bustling city. It also does very good for subway and transit sytem's ridership. Unless LA ever looses the "Car is King" feeling, it will never seem like a big city to me or probably get good useage of it's public transit system.
It just amazes me how well BART and public transit exist in San Francisco and L.A. still has that feel that if you don't have a car you might as well be homeless. I guess what your saying about the land mass is right though. I have been trying to explain to my friends for years that San Francisco has more big city flavor and transit then L.A. despite it's small size. It is funny though, something weird like Jacksonville, Florida is the biggest land-mass city in the USA. I believe LA also has more land-mass then NYC, but then so does Jacksonville!!
Jacksonville has a very large land area because it annexed all of Duval County some years ago. Much of its land area consists of nearly uninhabited territory. You can see this very well if you're driving on Interstate 95; after passing the "Entering Jacksonville" (or Duval County, I can't remember which) sign, you drive for miles and miles and see absolutely nothing. This is more pronounced when you're driving southbound, as the city has developed more toward the south.
I think that middle-class and upper-middle class neighborhoods have a lot to do with well used public transit systems and lively neighborhoods. I think for instance that LA and it's MTA suffer because LA mainly has a big ghetto and super rich people living in the burbs. No neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville in Chicago exists in LA. There's no life with people walking around, shopping, eating, riding the transit, etc..
I don't know if I'm saying correctly what I mean. You need areas like almost all of NYC and many areas in Chicago where people get out of their cars, walk around, and socialize. This gives a city a feel of being a big, hutstling, bustling city. It also does very good for subway and transit sytem's ridership.
Los Angeles actually does have some nice areas with a lot of pedestrian traffic and lively street-level activity. A few that come to mind include Westwood, Venice Beach, Santa Monica and downtown Beverly Hills. Of course, I would imagine that most of the people you'll see in those areas either live locally or arrive by automobile. Few of them arrive by transit, in other words.
>>> A few that come to mind include Westwood, Venice Beach, Santa Monica and downtown Beverly Hills. <<<
I guess we will have to settle for 50%. Santa Monica and Beverly Hills are independent cities, not part of the City of Los Angeles.
Tom
A few that come to mind include Westwood, Venice Beach, Santa Monica and downtown Beverly Hills.
I guess we will have to settle for 50%. Santa Monica and Beverly Hills are independent cities, not part of the City of Los Angeles.
I know that, I meant "Los Angeles" in the metro-area sense. It's practically impossible to make heads or tails of what's actually the city itself.
Beverly Hills does have a fair amount of transit ridership, actually - and is heavily served by buses. It's ridership consists mostly of college students, lower paid service and bank workers, the retired etc. etc., and of course people just passing through on a bus.
Oh, and I forgot - there's a fair crowd that gets off buses in the AM and back on buses PM on Olympic Boulevard when classes let out at Beverly Hills High School. You can drive at 16, but even in Beverly Hills, not everybody does. I took driver education, offered at Beverly, in my junior year, and then their driver training and got my license at 18.
What good doid it do me? I've had to do it all over again 20+ years later. I'll be taking my road test this week or next...
"Jacksonville has a very large land area because it annexed all of Duval County some years ago. Much of its land area
consists of nearly uninhabited territory. You can see this very well if you're driving on Interstate 95; after passing the
"Entering Jacksonville" (or Duval County, I can't remember which) sign, you drive for miles and miles and see
absolutely nothing. This is more pronounced when you're driving southbound, as the city has developed more toward
the south. "
The license plates read "Duval County", but the Sheriff's dept is called "Jacksonville Sheriff's Office", so who knows?
>>> Have they ever considered going above ground for Red Line extensions?? The other light-rail lines do this very well. I don't think the voters would approve any kind of elevated structure similar to the way they voted down subway expansion. However, has the MTA ever thought of sharing an embankment with Metrolink or freight rail-roads for future extensions??? <<<
No, where the Red Line runs is too dense for light rail, and an el would be completely unsatisfactory. They cannot share an embankment with MetroLink or other railroads, because none run where the Red Line is needed. The Blue Line is mainly on an old ROW and the Green Line is in a freeway median for most of its length.
>>> I think that middle-class and upper-middle class neighborhoods have a lot to do with well used public transit systems and lively neighborhoods. I think for instance that LA and it's MTA suffer because LA mainly has a big ghetto and super rich people living in the burbs. No neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville in Chicago exists in LA. There's no life with people walking around, shopping, eating, riding the transit, etc. <<<
I don't know what Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville look like, but your idea of what L.A. looks like is way off base. There are areas within the city with very expensive homes, and many areas that certainly would not be considered a ghetto. What L.A. lacks is significant areas of mixed residential and commercial buildings. Everyone needs a car because they cannot generally walk downstairs to buy groceries, and drop off dry cleaning. Even when I lived in a downtown high rise, I had to drive two miles to the nearest supermarket to do my weekly shopping. Most of the city is single family detached housing with off street parking and zoning which ensures shopping will be at least a few blocks away. Although it is possible to live in L.A. without an automobile, it is a major inconvenience.
Tom
Lincoln Park and Wrigleyville are neighborhoods in the city of Chicago that are densely populated, well served by L, and have lots of great bars and restaurants that are walking distance to residential areas and L stations.
I'm not saying that LA is a big ghetto, sorry for the way I phrased that last post. What I am saying is that most of the areas within 50 miles of Los Angeles are either Super-Rich or Poor Ghetto. There are some very, very beautiful and exclusive areas within the city-limits of Los Angeles proper and close by in the burbs. However, there aren't many middle-class or upper-middle class areas of the city or suburbs like you will find in Chicago-land. Take for instance Westmont where I currently live, it is a very safe, quiet (too much for my liking), middle-class suburbs about 20 miles west of Chicago.
I guess I am just saying that I was very disappointed when I visited LA for the first time a couple years ago. I thought, "this is what took over #2 from Chicago!! How did they pull that off?!?!" I had been to San Francisco several times before LA and still do consider it more of a "city" then LA. I guess I just love places like Times Square and many areas of NYC and Chicago where the neighborhoods come "alive" with people walking around, thanks in large part to public transportation.
It is a shame that the red line will probably never be extended past North Hollywood. I really love the beautiful stations and the extremely detailed work that was put into every station to make it have a different theme and look. I also rode the Blue Line to Long Beach and the stations on that line seemed rather boring compared to the Red Line Stations.
Even the suburbs of Chicago (older-established suburbs along commuter train lines) have beautiful small downtown areas clustered around Metra stations. Quite a contrast to many ugly cookie-cutter suburbs of California cities with ubiqitious strip malls.
The main California city I had in mind regarding the previous post is San Jose. I was there recently and rode the VTA light rail line. The whole city looks like a giant suburb without any great ethnic neighborhoods and a lackluster downtown.
I realize there are lots of Americans of Asian decent in San Jose, but there is no areas that has the feel of ethnic neighborhoods such as Jackson Heights in Queens!
One thing he's right about is that many of Los Angeles' neighborhoods are isoilated, in a sense, from one another. This, combined with low density sprawl and the huge area LA sits on, ensures that, for example, Watts remains a world away from Westwood or Agoura Hills.
In New York, there are people who have never been to another borough - but at least they can get there and be home in time for dinner. Without a car in LA, you can't do that. That's part of what afflicts Watts.
"I think for instance that LA and it's MTA suffer because LA mainly has a big ghetto and super rich people living in the burbs. No neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville in Chicago exists in LA. There's no life with people walking around, shopping, eating, riding the transit, etc.."
The closest Los Angeles comes to that would be Westwood. You can live, shop for anything from A-Z, go to the doctor or hospital, take your pet to the vet or animal hospital, go to college (UCLA) or night school, visit the library or police station or municipal court, go to the park - all walking distance, and frequent and convenient bus service is available to take you to the beach, which just a few miles away; three different bus lines from Westwood will get you to the airport. Bus service in Westwood is the best you'll find anywhere except downtown LA.
Downtown LA also has an area which can come close to that - and nowhere else in LA will you find the concentration of bus and rail service.
Speaking of L.A. it is really a shame what they did with the red line.
The small portion that is now open and will probably be the only "subway" LA sees for many years is nice, but is simply to small.
Have they ever considered going above ground for Red Line extensions?? The other light-rail lines do this very well. I don't think the voters would approve any kind of elevated structure similar to the way they voted down subway expansion. However, has the MTA ever thought of sharing an embankment with Metrolink or freight rail-roads for future extensions???
It just amazes me how well BART and public transit exist in San Francisco and L.A. still has that feel that if you don't have a car you might as well be homeless. I guess what your saying about the land mass is right though. I have been trying to explain to my friends for years that San Francisco has more big city flavor and transit then L.A. despite it's small size. It is funny though, something weird like Jacksonville, Florida is the biggest land-mass city in the USA. I believe LA also has more land-mass then NYC, but then so does Jacksonville!!
I think that middle-class and upper-middle class neighborhoods have a lot to do with well used public transit systems and lively neighborhoods. I think for instance that LA and it's MTA suffer because LA mainly has a big ghetto and super rich people living in the burbs. No neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville in Chicago exists in LA. There's no life with people walking around, shopping, eating, riding the transit, etc..
I don't know if I'm saying correctly what I mean. You need areas like almost all of NYC and many areas in Chicago where people get out of their cars, walk around, and socialize. This gives a city a feel of being a big, hutstling, bustling city. It also does very good for subway and transit sytem's ridership. Unless LA ever looses the "Car is King" feeling, it will never seem like a big city to me or probably get good useage of it's public transit system.
One possible reason rail transit works well in San Francisco is that it the second most densly populated city in the US (after NYC). It also has a good size downtown.
Don't forget San Francisco always retained it's 5 line streetcar system, along with Caltrain commuter service to San Jose and 3 cable car lines.
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stpata21q3183855mar21,0,3917273.story?coll=ny%2Dstatenews%2Dheadlines
or see if this links properly
It linked OK for me.
Linked fine for me too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know what if anything is happening witht this project?
Does anyone know what if anything is happening with this project?
Does anyone know what if anything is going on with this project?
Sorry for the extra postings...........
I think the FTA just told SEPTA where it can stick it's Pie-in-the-Sky cost and ridership estimates. It's too bad too cause that area probably could use some commuter rail like the rest of the Regional rail lines see.
Course I don't see why SEPTA can't just refurbish the old PRR bridge over the Schuykill, double track the line out to Reading, toss up some high platforms, then buy some Prima PL42ACs or F59PHIs and some accomanying Kawasaki BiLevels (or more Shoreliners), and run a diesel service up there from 30th St Lower Level (or upper level although I think the logistics there would be hard, same with Temple, which wouldn't even need the bridge refurbished, but would be a two seat ride) for a fraction of the cost for the SVM. This whole thing with the line having to be electric with all high platforms and POP payment is BS! Diesel commuter rail may not always be the BEST solution, but there must be a comprimise in there somewhere, and if electrification is too expensive, then drop that and move to get diesel rail. It will still run straight into the city along the R6 Norristown (as well as the Cynwyd branch), and the bridge could even be electrified for a small amount, potentially allowing the TPH at norristown and all stations until around Manyunk to have 2x the R6 service, plus potential Reading service (maybe bring back the R4?).
So what if it isn't the bulletproof, electrified, goldplated line that SEPTA and BARTA originally wanted? What project has ever been finished even looking 10% like the original concept? It's time for SEPTA to admit that they were completely BSing the whole thing and drop the electrification bit, the Silverlier Vs aren't just for that line, they're for the whole system, and diesel running on that area won't kill them, especially if the diesels run express past Norristown or so, where they won't suffer from frequent start and stops. At least passengers are getting moved, at least some of the burden is being taken off the roads up there, god knows they could use a reprieve. And electrification can always come later, when the ridership basis for more service, service requiring electrification has been achieved and money is available for the upgrade.
I agree with you, why not run the line diesel to 30th St?
Shoot, I wouldn't mind walking from the 30th on a good day, and there is always the trolleys under Market for inclement weather.
Just give us some sort of service out this way, Rt 422 is getting worse each year
NJ Transit runs disel trains to 30th Street, so that's not such a terrible thing. And since the upper level tracks are open to the air ventilation is not a problem.
Yeah, I had the same thought, running to the upper level would make things simple from a Commuter's perspective, what with all SEPTA trains arriving there, and they wouldn't need to run down to the lower level for a Reading train. However I'm not sure if the switches and tracks are there to hold or reverse those trains before they reach 20th St portal. They'd be arriving on the southernmost two tracks, those for arriving R5 and R6 trains, then they'd have to work their way completely across the 4 tracks that cross the Schyulkill and parallel JFK Blvd to reach the R5 and R6 westbound tracks, which might tie up all the traffic on the line. If they were run into and out of 30th St Upper level, it might have to be as specials, the citybound trains backing out of 30th St UL to go to the Powellton Engine yard, or to head out the R6 branch to Reading. Either way, it would require 'backwards' running on track that are, at rush hour, decidedly unidirectional. I suppose the trains could back out of 30th St upper level R5 R6 eastbound platforms empty, reverse in Powellton yard, then roll again backwards into the R5 R6 westbound platform to pick up passengers for the trip out to Reading. Perhaps it'd just be easier to platform at 30th St Lower Level.
The other solution would be to get some form of Dual-Mode train to serve maybe a Reading-Bethlehem branch, and we all know how that's gone over thus far. :/
The connection from the Reading to 30th Street Station is gone, so while that's being re-established, appropriate switches could be installed at 30th St to move the trains from inbound to outbound tracks without going underground.
There is still a connection between the Amtrak line (westbound local) at North Broad Station and the Reading at 16th St Junction on the Norristown line.
There is still a connection between the Amtrak line (westbound local) at North Broad Station and the Reading at 16th St Junction on the Norristown line.
There is still a connection between the Amtrak line (westbound local) at North Broad Station and the Reading at 16th St Junction on the Norristown line.
True. It would have to be improved substantially to be used routinely, though. I rode down and up that connection on the RDG FP7 50th anniversary charter.
Well said! SEPTA needs to get its head out of the clouds. I can't for the life of me, even understand why they kept insisting on electric trains on separate tracks to Reading. Ridiculous. Just run diesels. They can terminate at 30th Street Station while the Manayunk/East Falls portion of the R6 can be converted to rapid transit and run under Ridge Avenue to Center City, taking over the Broad-Ridge Spur. That thing could defintely use more ridership.
This will never happen so long as SEPTA insists on their gilded pie-in-the-sky projects. AT heart, they're still a bus company running a railroad. When in doubt, price it beyond reality, and bus the route. Thank You National Cities.........
I'm surprised NCL actually left the MFL, BSS, Norristown and Subway-Surface lines alone. I thought even those lines weren't safe from bus conversion. Still, someone in PA needs to force SEPTA to plan its projects better.
Well, are they getting a a pair or not ? If not, I guess the TA is intent on being hard-asses about the asbestos issue.
Are the numbers there in terms of ridership to bring back service via the Chrystie St connection?
If you've ever been to Grand Street before the Manhattan Bridge closed, you'd know. You'd know!
Grand Street was not built big enough (but probably no one could have seen it coming). It was the 34th busiest station in the city. As for the BMT Eastern Division connector to the IND 6th Avenue line, it is absolutely necessary for yard moves, if nothing else.
On a related note (I am way too young for this), does anyone here recall riding the D train when it used this connector for a weird rerouting around 1982 (it relayed on the foot of the Willy B before continuing on its way)?
Yep -- through the Chrystie connection and the Essex St. station up past the switch on the Willie B, and then across the switch and back through Essex, the Nassau Loop and the Montague tunnel to DeKalb.
IIRC, the D was still using the 60-foot R-42 cars when this reroute occurred, and no 75-footers were sent through the Nassau Loop to Dekalb (I think they can make it going south, but can't handle the curve heading into Chambers northbound).
Yes, I remember THAT rerouting too . The D was primarily made up of R-40m-42's and some R-32's, but not many!!!! 75 footers ran on the D up to about 1980 only!!!!!! TOny Leong
Grand Street was not built big enough (but probably no one could have seen it coming). It was the 34th busiest station in the city. As for the BMT Eastern Division connector to the IND 6th Avenue line, it is absolutely necessary for yard moves, if nothing else.
On a related note (I am way too young for this), does anyone here recall riding the D train when it used this connector for a weird rerouting around 1982 (it relayed on the foot of the Willy B before continuing on its way)?
well i was born september 24, 1986, and was not alive when the bridge was open
You were dead in the autumn of 1990?
Manhattan Bridge section: hell yes!
Williamsburgh Bridge connection: debatable, not enough IMHO.
No, but maybe, as a branch of the 2nd Av subway, it might work.
Another paranoid bedwetting cowardly article in the Times.
By the way, I'd say that Phillippe Blanchard definitely needs some adult diapers.
The type of person who would be asking now "Why so many police/soldiers in the subway?" But after something happens he'll be asking "Where were they when?"
There is a limited amount of destruction that can be done by something carried onto a train, and that is now a risk that is part of the background noise. Sooner or later someone is going to bring on a backback or briefcase that kills a lot of people on ONE train or bus. Someone will die, but it probably won't be you. Like auto accidents and murders.
As I said, I'm more afraid of a truck bomb, which blown in the right (wrong) place has the potential to kill large numbers of people and destroy enough of the city to substantially diminsh the lives of hundreds of thousands more. It could blast open subway tunnels, and bring down buildings, if it's big enough.
Bottom line, you can drive in a lot more destructive power in a truck than you can carry onto a train.
>>> There is a limited amount of destruction that can be done by something carried onto a train, and that is now a risk that is part of the background noise. <<<
And has been since the days of the "mad bomber" in NYC.
Tom
Not to mention more recently when someone's "bomb" went off at Fulton St/B'way.
All I can say is wow!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2165034855&rd=1
As a NYCT employee, taxpayer and subway rider, I can see a potentially bad result of this. Perhaps the NYCT sign shop needs to start auctioning off copies of whatever signs it makes in order to flood the market and keep down the reward from stealing one from the station.
Larry,
For all we know that sign was just tossed in the garbage when the TA went with the white on black signs years ago.
The seller on ebay may have obtained it totally legitimately.
What the TA should do is keep all the old signs when they replace them and then offer them for sale (like they did some time back with the auction/tag sales).
The sign from Metropolitan-Grand is pretty pricey too. Did you check out the R32 model trainset? Another pricey item.
wayne
Just wondering what you guys think of the R142's, they are the same type of cars that are now running the majority of service in Toronto (up here called T1's) and arnt paticularly liked (there ride is terrible and god are they loud) but I'm wondering what you think of them in NY.
? I tried to find a photo of Toronto subway cars, and the only ones i found showed cars that looked nothing like r142s. Can u put up a link to a photo?
Try http://transit.toronto.on.ca/transit.cfm?tt=subway&id=5505 this whole site has very good info on transit in Toronto overall, and yes there do seem to be some modifactions to the bodies of the New York version and they may have been shortened (not sure about that) but they are essentially the smae car.
You must be "ON THE STUFF" because those cars look nothing a like what so ever.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I agree, but you can see a definite similarity in the ceilings of the cars.
All i have to say is that they don,t look anything like the R142(but
the ceiling looks alot like the one found on the R142).the R142 look
cool,but i don,t like em,the R143 look way better then those cars.
til next time
I personally love the R142's and the R142A's. on a side note, the R143 can only be run on the B divisions due to IND/BMT style clearance.
Go a bit further and read off the unit configurations for the T1 and R142 sets which are completely different. Some of those differences immediately bring up a few other big ones in terms of traction equipment, control systems etc. etc. etc...
-Robert King
I check out the pictures, and they look nothing like the R142. Some people say they look like the R62A and I have no idea where they're getting that from! The exterior looks nothing like an R62A. It even has corrugated sides, more like an R32. The windows are more boxed-shaped as well.
Those cars look nothing like the r142s. The windows are all different. the seats are different, the signs aren't electronic, and who knows what is underneith it. If any thing they look like the R62's from the out side.
Those cars look nothing like the r142s. The windows are all different. the seats are different, the signs aren't electronic, and who knows what is underneith it. If any thing they look like the R62's from the out side.
The R142 and the T1 are vastly different cars despite some overall similarities. In some respects, the design differences are huge.
Regarding the T1s, their riding quality is fine but firmer than some of the older cars, particularly the H6s. T1s are much more stable than the H1s were, especially at higher speeds.
Also, in what way do you think they are louder? They're quiter inside than anything that's an H4 or older. Braking noise? That's been cut down quite a bit over the past four years and is only a problem if they're letting the shoes wear down too far before replacing them. This problem isn't unique to the T1 cars. Greenwood has lots of H6 and H4 cars that sound terrible during braking for this reason, too.
In the end, what you need to do is go to New York and ride some R142s to see them running for yourself.
-Robert King
An enginner on a class 1 railroad needs a big roomy cab....but, traditinally, a subway car has always had (with the exception of the 1930s BMT Multis), a small compartment for the motorman. Now, we have full-width cabs, and the operator now sits at a control panel that would look more at home on the bridge of the StarShip Enterprise than in a NYC subway car. Why must subway cars be so high tech? The more hi-tech something is, the more expensive it is to repair......and that much more can foul up. Why cant subway cars be just straightforward machines, as they were in the past, without all this Star Wars technology?
full width cabs allow the use of OPTO. Saves $$, doesnt cost more.
But CCTV OPTO is far more effective and efficient. It also provides for a security ugrade for no additional cost.
Philadelphia handles OPTO with traditional-sized cabs, using TV monitors, on the new cars on the Market-Frankford line apparently without any problems. The cars also have great railfan viewing opportunities.
How many seats and standing spaces are lost on the New York (or even Chicago) cars with full-width cabs? Passenger accommodation should be more important than all that square footage to open and close doors.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Two seats and two or three standing spaces per transverse cab.
>>> Two seats and two or three standing spaces per transverse cab. <<<
Aha! Now we know the real reason for the fare increase. :-)
Tom
I have a solution: just allow those five displaced passengers to stand in the cab.
I volunteer!
They tried that once - it resulted in a repeat of an old bulletin. :)
Two seats and two or three standing spaces per transverse cab.
Can I ask HOW you figure that seats are lost to all transverse cabs? I only see lost seats on the R62 and R68.
Picky, picky, picky. Actually, seats are only lost on the R62/62A which were converted to transverse cabs. All other transverse cab models were designed as such, and so no seats are 'lost'; however, if those cabs could be converted to standard cab size, you would gain approx two seats and three 'standing' spots.
I wasn't even going in that direction. But the argument seemed to be that because the cab was full width, seating was lost as opposed to those with half width cabs. At least, that's where I thought the thread was going. When in fact, all that happens with the transverse cab is that seats are transplanted from one end of the car to the other. Also, with the exception of the R68/A, number of total seats on a train. The B cars don't have cabs at all and so 4 seats are gained on the R44, 142, 143 and 6 seats on the R46.
>>> all that happens with the transverse cab is that seats are transplanted from one end of the car to the other <<<
You are making the mistake that so many on this board do, in comparing existing full width cab cars to existing broom closet cars. You are seeing what is rather than what could be. If the cars with a full width cab on one end and no cab on the other were designed with the traditional small cab on one end and no cab on the other, there would be an additional two passenger seats and three standing positions. The real question is are the advantages of a full width cab worth the loss of those passenger spaces. At the risk of being stoned as a heretic, I think they are.
Tom
If you were here right now, I would stone in the manner that a heretic is stoned. You heretic.
Ok, you got me there. I was comparing the full width to the half-width at both ends, as opposed to full width to the half at one end and none on the other. But I also thought the comparisons were meant to be of "what is" not of "what could be".
I also want to add that a full width cab is better from the C/R's point of view. On the "broom closet" equipped cars, the C/R is constantly crossing between, with the train moving at speed. I've seen even veteran C/R's lose their balance sometimes and the full width cab avoids all of that. Some may think that the C/R's convenience isn't worth them losing seats, but I bet when the C/R was fatally injured at N. Conduit, most passengers were thinking "OPEN THE F*CKING DOORS" as opposed to "Did something happen?"
Oh and before I get replies of the like, yes I know those were not the circumstance under which she died, but my point was that if a C/R was to fall while crossing between cars it probably wouldn't cross the public's mind that something happened until it was too late. So better to have the full width cab for the safety of the crew.
Video monitors in the cabs would accomplish the same task without reducing passenger space. With appropriately placed cameras (not a given!), the C/R would never need to stick his head out the window, eliminating the Aqueduct problem. OPTO would be much faster and safer. And, most important of all, railfans would get their windows back!
And, most important of all, railfans would get their windows back!
Not really, you would need a safe guard in case the off side cameras went dark. A true visual inspection would be needed or the train goes OOS.
And it was even MORE risky in the older cars when, in addition to having to "cross over" we also had to lift the gate chains at speed, and climb up between cars AT SPEED in order to be ready to open and close doors from the outside of the cars as they stopped. The few times I worked R32's, I was grateful to just have to cross over to another cab instead of climbing like a monkey. Definitely there are additional safety advantages of not having to cross over too. Step plates were no fun when they were wet, icy, or snow-covered. :(
Philadelphia handles OPTO with traditional-sized cabs, using TV monitors, on the new cars on the Market-Frankford line apparently without any problems. The cars also have great railfan viewing opportunities.
Exactly, and the Broad Street Subway uses full width cab OPTO and is slow as heck! By the time the Septa T/O pushes him or herself out of their seat, waddles over to the other side (nothing against Septa workers BTW, if I had to do that BS I'd probably move pretty slowly by my 3rd or 4th trip down the line), pushes the window open and opens the door an MFL train could be halfway through it's station dwell time. Course this is only for local trains stopping at express stops or Island platforms (which is like all stations south of Fairmount for the locals), the expresses have it easier, with the platform always on the T/O's side.
I know a BSS train with the cab closed off sacrifices two seats in the cab car for a wide cab, and at times I really seems like those two seats would come in mighty handy.
The more hi-tech something is, the more expensive it is to repair
What a ridiculous comment. How come humans have been becoming more high-tech since the dawn of civilization? Why doesn't everything cost an arm and a leg? Where is the cutoff for high-tech for you? 1950s? 60s? Horses are less complex than subway cars, why aren't we still riding them? Someone 50 years ago probably said that this 1950s technology is too expensive and that stuff was more straightforward in the 1900s. 50 years from now, some other person will be making comments like this about how stuff in the 2000s was more simple and less complex then the stuff they have in the 2050s. Why should civilization stop innovating because YOU think we are too high-tech?
For example, cell phones used to cost thousands of dollars in the 80s, but now you can get one for $100 and they'll replace it for free (or really cheap) if it breaks. What if someone said in 1985 that these high-tech phones are too expensive to make and repair, so let's call it quits?
High tech more expensive to repair? How so? If the ignition on my car craps out, I pop a new $150 module in. At least, I think it's $150 for it. See, it hasn't crapped out in the 210,000 miles I've had the car. As opposed to those 'cheap' $25 rotors and 'cheap' $25 distributor caps you have to change every 25,000 miles.
It's like the idiots who still run points on their old shovelheads "because they're better". How so? Shitty spark, shitty control over it, always screwing with the timming, putting in a new set every year, and forever messing with the damm things. Put an electronic module on, you get a much hotter spark, better performance, and you never screw with it.
Oh yeah, try living with any tube type color TV sets. They eat horizontal outputs. They all do (yes guys, I've dipped the cathode current below 200ma). A new 6JE6? Oh yeah, $75. Don't screw up your horizonal efficiency adjustment, or it'll glow red and that's the end of it. Your new all solid state Sony will go years without any adjustments whatsoever (ever do the convergence on a TV set? Ever even try)
In any case, replacing less reliable components with more reliable ones is better - an MG set elevator has a dozen plus high power contactors, and arotating MG set, and a lot of resistances and regulators. A VVVF has one contactor and a shoebox sized inverter. It rides smoother too. You don't have to check anything, and even a crappy taiwanese drive has a 2 year warranty on it, to say nothing of the Japanese ones (which don't break). There's no brushes to maintain, no contactors to clean, no mess of wiring to check, and no complex adjustments. It's all computer set up and all computer regulated. And if it breaks? unplug the old drive and plug a new one in.
If the ignition on my car craps out, I pop a new $150 module in. At least, I think it's $150 for it. See, it hasn't crapped out in the 210,000 miles I've had the car.
What happens if the module was not available? What if you had only the materials available in whatever workspace or garage you have? Come on Phil, an asteriod shower hit Earth, there's a giant wave comming to wipe out Long Island, the auto parts store was destroied and you need to get out. Those with the lo-tech system would be able to fashion parts out of household items and drive to safety. Where would you be?
Okay, MacGyver, what about 99% of the population that CAN'T do that?
It wouldn't matter anyway in your example, any road would be clogged beyond belief, you might as well walk.
Alright, say that your car isn't running right, it idles either very high or very low, never really where it should be, and it tends to misfire. Now with a mechanical system, with carburators and distributers and all, you could pop the hood and start playing with the timing, the throttle, the mixture and all until you're blue in the face and still not have solved the problem. With a computer controlled ignition system, and fuel injection also controlled by computer, you can plug another computer into the ECU and adjust the timing, mixture, and a whole host of other variables in the car WHILE THE CAR IS RUNNING! Simply given a few sensors and a properly programmed computer (I recently used a programming software called LabView for some stuff in school, programming for the C+ impaired, you could probably rig the analyzing software in there), you could have complete feedback control on what the engine is doing at all times, in a method much better understood to the layperson than any mechanical system could ever express (how many people go into the shop saying, "My car's making a funny sound"?).
Heck, take it a step further, incorperate the analyzing computer INTO the car, make it an integral part of the car's systems. The army is already doing something like this with the IVIS system, you may have seen it on TV in Iraq, they said that it allows data to be shared between all fighting vehicles, what they didn't mention is that it is a complete diagnostic program for the whole vehicle. It measures thousands of variables and watches for wear on any of the components it's tasked for. It can tell when the M1 needs a turbine replacement, when the M2's no. 4 cylinder needs a new injector, or when that FAASV's Track sprocket is just about worn down, and will put out a maintenance order on the item in question.
Imagine something this powerful in your car or in a subway car, no breakdowns because the system can foresee problems far better than any mechanic or CI (no offense CIPeter), and in the event of a breakdown the exact problem is instantly pointed to, no need for diagnostic tests to be run on indivdual pieces, wasting time and energy. Just pop the piece out the computer tells you is bad, test it to make sure the computer is telling the truth (and make sure your back is turned to the camera when you tell your co-worker that the AE-35 is fine and HAL, errm the subway car is lying, lest the subway car read your lips), and pop a new one in out of stocks. If the computer breaks, it should be readily obvious, and if the part is good, then you get a new computer, put the old one on a stand that simulates a usual day for an automobile or subway car in service, and only THEN you do a complete car inspection to make sure that there wasn't something missed. Imagine how many nusanse inspections this could eliminate for yards, the crews may be able to work to get the trains in even better shape.
In such a ridiculous situation as you stated, screw it, you're not going to out run a wave from something the magnitude of an Asteroid, with a yield measured im Megatonnage high enough that mankind has yet to even produce a bomb large enough to be little more than an opening act for this monster. Sit down, relax, make peace with the world, and consider the incredible orbital mechanics that must have gone into getting this asteroid to strike the northern atlantic at just the time you happened to be on Long Island, consider the absolute vastness of space, the vacuum effect that massive Jupiter has, which SHOULD have sucked this little remanent of the birth of the solar system up years ago, consider the service that you are doing to any future inhabitants of the solar system by giving up your life, since this will be but one less errant rock to threaten their survival, consider the fact that if we had fully funded all spaceflight programs and not bitched like crazy about nuclear spaceflight, we most likely would already have moon bases at the least, maybe big tauruses in space with tens of thousands of people in them, and the human race could survive to later repopulate the planet, and finally consider that if the asteroid had stopped at some point along the way for just a mere hour, it'd be a land strike in russia, another Tunguska, and some beautiful sunrises and sunsets, darker skies, less daytime sunlight, maybe some bad crop yields and also perhaps an accompanying recession, but not bad considering whats facing you; or 2 hours, a water strike in the eastern pacific, all Japan is gone, it's the people on Cape Flattery, Half Moon Bay and Lompoc, CA who are now in your shoes, the economic disaster would be enough, but you'd certainly be alive. Damn I been reading too much Arthur C Clarke!
Anyway, given the amount of tools in my garage, I can't even change the oil, all I can do is toss antifreeze, oil, and windshield wiper fluid in. I don't hold out much chance of me rigging an ignition system for my car to get me some 30-50 miles to safety in any event. You are assuming that we all have the proper tools available to us, I think you might be kinda surprised how bare the tool benches are in some peoples' garages. If I was in my Small Engines room from high school (otherwise known as Auto Shop, but we got lawnmower engines, not anything over a liter displacement, or even multicylindered, but they did have a good set of tools), then yeah, I might be able to do something, but if you assume that the person has this tool or that metal piece, then couldn't it just as easily be assumed that the person has a computer and the proper interface and software for talking to their ECU?
Ok, lemme get this right - your justification for the crap performance of points is if an asteroid hits the earth? I mean, sure, it might happen in the next 20,000,000 years, but let's not hold our breath here.
Or, perhaps, you're resulting to such stupid arguments because you don't just want to admit you're plain wrong?
I am saying that we need to prepare for the worst case scenario. I don't care how, but the worst case situation needs to be taken into consideration.
My two solid state Sonys lasted three and seven days beyond warranty. Bad example 8-)
Horses are less complex than subway cars, why aren't we still riding them?
I can tell you from personal experiance that horses are far more complex than subway cars.
Anywho, I think Mr. CC's arguement that modern Subways are being filled w/ technology solely for technology's sake. I mean does a TO really need a multi-function LCD display? Does he really need computerized door controls, horn and headlights? There's a popular saying "Keep it Simple Stupid". The more bells and whistles we add the greater the likeleyhood of a failure.
>>> I mean does a TO really need a multi-function LCD display? Does he really need computerized door controls, horn and headlights? <<<
Generalizing is easy. Specify which indications and controls you believe the T/O should not have (giving consideration to OPTO).
Tom
Havning th 143 tell you that the HVAC in the 7th car tripped out is nice or which car has the pulled cord, all that saves time/comfort on the road.
As for the much hated full length cab it does give more visability in yards and flagging situations.
>>> the much hated full length cab <<<
I can see why a full length cab would be hated by all, but is the full width cab hated by any of the operating personnel, or just rail fans?
Tom
Yes, the operating personnel who are also railfans or who understand the plight of the railfan do not like the full-width cabs.
I don't know. Why don't you ask them about the full-width R-44 cab?
We love the full lenght cabs!
SHAME on you ... considering your OWN comfort and safety instead of worrying about the fans. Fer shame, bro. :)
Specify which indications and controls you believe the T/O should not have (giving consideration to OPTO).
The R44/46 seem to do well with OPTO. No special controls there.
As far as the argument that the EBV was pulled and the computer tells you where. Nice, but either way the T/O has to walk back to reset it, so why bother with the computer telling him/her? Same thing if a trip cock is activated: the T/O still has to inspect.
Too many computers and controls in New Tech generating too many false flaggings. Nice to have a EBV/PEV notification for reset but the rest of the PCE indications along with system failures must make T/Os crazy...i go crazy reading them with a laptop and wiping them off.
'E Cam forever.' CI Peter
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
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BusTalkers are welcome, too!Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC, do not click the link, just do your thing! Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
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I have to respond because I can't get in to the chat room. mIRC gives me this msg:
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HELP!!!!!
Well, it's too late now, but:
You have to identify to you nickname.
If this sounds strange to you, e-mail me (I do not post my e-mail to Subtalk normally).
Please note: I am not in any way affiliated with the chat room. I am only offering my help as a concerned citizen (who hasn't been to the chat in a long time).
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Man, Amtrak is really getting hit hard.
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Man, Amtrak is really getting hit hard.
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LOL, Camden is New Jersey's pooly kept sceret. Hell, I've been advocating that Camden be walled off from the rest of society for years.
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devoutly to be hoped for! Given the designed in mistakes not one further foot of BART should be built imho. The co0st estimates for the extension to San Juse are astronomical. For the same money the EXISTING commuter tracks could be upgraded, a connecting branch across a disused bridge reopened, and money would be left over for several years of operating budgets for all three.
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HA ha! They so deserve it. Stupid Frenchies.
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They're not French, and the problem lies in the aerospace side of the company, not the railcar business.
Then what language root do you think the name comes from? BTW, French Canadians count as Frogs too.
J. Armand Bombardier invented the snowmobile and founded the company.
I stand by my ethnic slur.
Your language is acceptable and even commendable.
>>> I stand by my ethnic slur. <<<
Those who feel the need to use ethnic slurs say much more about themselves than those they disparage.
Tom
R142 warranties are expiring and Car Inspectors will have continued employment. Parts are not readily available and supervision counts upon CI improvisation TO MAKE TRAINS GO. The #5 line crew is amazing as how they find defects and make repairs BEYOND their inspection duties. It's too bad that the last pick was derailed and many want to pick out...a lot of hard work that goes mostly unnoticed. CI Peter
I got the MTH RailKing work train about two weeks ago. The set has an NW2 Diesel, a tank car, a searchlight car, and an R-17, for which I've gotten the extra R-17. To complicate matters a bit more, I've also picked up two of the K-Line ballast cars.
I'm not certain how prototypical the searchlight car is--it's in the family tradition of Lionel searchlight cars from the late 190s or early 1950s on.
What's the usual order of cars on such a train? It doesn't seem like both R-17s should be together, but I haven't seen enough pictures to make up my mind. Locomotive-R17-searchlight-ballast-ballast-tank-R17 would seem to make sense. (K-Line has a matching crane and boom coming out, so I may be back for advice on where in the consist those should go.)
If many more matching cars come out, I think I may have to try to find a second locomotive; maybe an old steeplecab would be nice.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
For two R17's, I recommend this:
Locomotive, R17, locomotive, tank, ballast, ballast, R17, searchlight car.
If you want a precise work train, check the photos on this site at the 36 Street yards. But usually, the R17 is placed at the opposite end of the train from the loco or between two locos.
I wish they would make the 45/50 tonners.
MTH has not really done us a favor. The loco they are using is far from prototypical. My plan is to slow down a K-Line S-2 Loco and paint it appropriately. Another possibility is the Plymouth Switcher in the 2003 K-Line catalog.
K-Line's Plymouth seems to be in the 12-16 Ton range and is a Gas-Mechanical type. Such a locomotive would have too low a T.E. and top speed to be suitable for that service. Kit Bashing a newer (DC Motors with correct trucks) Lionel "44-tonner" to resemble an end cab GE switcher may be a better solution. Using the cab and sides of the hood for a basis, it should be possible to fabricate a carbody. An underframe of proper length is made of sheet steel which has been sheared to proper size and bent where needed at a local sheet metal shop for a few dollars. Holes to mount the trucks are drilled and the reverse board, carbody and trucks are mounted. The result should closely resemble a GE 45/50 tonner.
I'm all in favor of that myself.
Apparently, MTH is not aware that they could get some 'milage' out of the castings of the GE 47/50 Tonners by issuing it in three configurations: (1) general NYCTA MOW color scheme; (2) South Brooklyn Railway 'Redbird' scheme (w/appropriate markings); (3) Atlanta's MARTA System MOW scheme (heard that Atlanta is the only other transit operator that uses them).
They could even make a variation of the standard MOW 50 ton diesel loco by having red striping on the ends of the unit instead of black to market it as an R-77E (electric locomotive), commonly used as a NYCTA yard 'tug'.
I think TD has alot of the same feelings on this.
Thanks for the suggestions about car arrangements for the work train.
I'd go bankrupt with getting all those variations of the GEs being talked about.
Dreaming a bit, an old SBRy steeplecab with trolley poles would be something I'd probably buy, as well as pre-war cars (Lo-Vs, ABs, R-1s), but there doesn't seem to be any interest on Mike Wolf's part to produce pre-war cars. I know that MTS and Q-Car have had some cars available, but MTH would have the advantage of larger production numbers and hence lower prices.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
[Dreaming a bit, an old SBRy steeplecab with trolley poles would be something I'd probably buy, as well as pre-war cars (Lo-Vs, ABs, R-1s), but there doesn't seem to be any interest on Mike Wolf's part to produce pre-war cars.]
The old term, 'Never say never' can apply here...you just might get surprised one of these days...;)
I would suck them up and sell my NW-2s. MTA's switchers are COOL. I'm going to the OGR Forum and the TCA E-Mail list to campaign for their manufacture.
I'd guess that if MTH did know of the other uses for the GE loco, they still wouldn't think they could get enough mileage out of it. I'm sure that when they considered making an MOW set, they figured fewer people would be interested than those who wanted actual subway trains. If they knew the MTA MOW set would sell like hotcakes, they might have thought it worthwhile to make a GE casting.
I'm actually (pleasantly) suprised that MTH decided to issue an R-12, since this involves making an entire new casting. They were able to re-use molds when fabricating the R-21, R-17, and R-36 sets. (Supposedly, even the different windows were figured in the modularity of the molds.) I still wouldn't be surprised if down the road, MTH decides to issue mainline R-26/28, R-33, or R-36's in different color schemes, or an R-36 WF in redbird colors. Even with the R-12, they get to re-use the chasis, drivetrain, trucks, sideframes, and end gates from the earlier sets.
Perhaps some parts of the R-12 mold can be re-used to fabricate an R-10 in the future. Some have suggested that any 60-foot cars will probably be sold as "Premiere" items as opposed to "RailKing", and I don't doubt that, especially if new molds must be made. I seriously doubt we'll see a BMT Standard, or a 75-foot car, because this would involve making new chasis parts as well.
There are "rumors" (and that's all they are at the moment) that MTH will come out with some sort of 100th Anniversary car in 2004. If they did, I would imagine it would be a Lo-V, or standard-body (Hedley) Hi-V, as these could easily be re-issued as one or the other with a change of door panels and some minor trim variations. They could even re-use the previous chasis components, as long as they changed the sideframes. With a Gibbs car, Composite, Deck-Roof, or 1938 WF-Steinway car, the molds could only be used for one model.
R-9s are the signature car of the NYC Subway system.
""R-9s are the signature car of the NYC Subway system""
How do you figure that?
R-9's may be the signature car of the IND Subway, but of the whole system?
If 2004 represents the 100th Anniversary of the IRT, how does an IND subway car represent it?
A Gibbs or Composite car would be representative of the 100th anniversary of the IRT, as those cars were running on opening day. But the most common IRT car wound up being the Lo-V.
The R-9 is the car that most people think of when you mention the NYC Subway. while an automobile buff may prefer a Hudson Hornet, to most people the '57 Chevy is the signature car of the '50s. toy train buyers would have no interest in something as ancient as as a Gibbs, and a Lo-V is the only IRT car that has any chance of ever being produced since the Lo-V is the signature car of the IRT.
I for one, make no presumptions about "what most people think of". I don't think there's ever been a Gallup or Harris poll on which subway car is representative to most New Yorkers.
I think what "most people think of" has a lot to do with what they rode most of the time. If you ask a person who grew up in Brooklyn, I'd be willing to bet that they'd think of a BMT Standard before they'd think of a an IND R-9.
I grew up on the East Side of Manhattan, so I rarely ever rode on the IND. All I ever saw were Lo-V's, Standards, Triplexes, and the "new" cars (R12-36's on the IRT; R-16's and beyond on the BMT).
I would like to see some manufacturer make reasonably priced, plastic , mass-produced subway cars....seems the few available sell out so quick, that many fans are left out in the cold. And, unless you are a stockbroker, or CEO, it is far from feasible to build up a sizeable fleet, as shelling out approximetly $300 per set can run into big bucks....In HO, and N, there are so many models of so many types of mainline locos and rolling stock........subway modelers are left to choose from astrominacally-priced brass pieces, to MTH/RAIL KING'S $300 bucks a pop sets. Realistically, not everyone makes CEO salaries that make hobby expenditures painless to the wallet and budget. And many peope have many favorites: BMT fans of course will opt for Standards, IRT fans will opt for Lo-Vs and Redbirds, IND fans will go for Rs.....Of course, subway buffs are in the minority, as opposed to main-line rail buffs, but still, there is a sizeable market out there, waiting for a variety of realistic subway models at prices that will not bankrupt.
Your wish will come true later this Spring with the release of LifeLike's set of HO scale R-17s in the Redbird and MTA color schemes. The Transit Museum Gift Shop will carry the four-car set that should retail for about $150.
MAN, THANKS!!! YOU MADE MY MILLENIUM!!
Isn't that the SECOND time you thanked me for making your Millennium? :)
You are right! But I always believe in thanking someone who brings me good news!
That's okay, I'll just settle for an unused Lotto Ticket! :)
You are right! But I always believe in thanking someone who brings me good news!
Apparently he plans on living through 2 and you've made them both.
I agree there. As a matter of fact, a Gibbs car would suit MTH's needs perfectly, as they could get 'two models out of one': release a slightly modified Gibbs car (with trap doors and steps on the ends)-- and you have a LIRR MP-41! :)
The 50's would ALSO be appropriate for generic terminal railways and yard switching. Port of Albany has a couple of them also.
Kev, the ones I'm talking about have the lowered roofline for subway clearances. I know there are other types of GE 47/50 Ton locos, but the ones for industrial work have a more traditional cab roofline. I'm also aware that there were a series of them built with the cab located in the center of the unit (for better visibility in push/pull situations).
Center cab GE switchers were built that way because their carbodies housed two identical diesel-electric power units. MTA's units appear to be fairly unique but they are very good looking and good performing locomotives.
Actually, two of the GE's at Port of Albany *are* NYCTA style with the chopped roof (underpass that needs to be cleared) and they also have (had?) two rotting away SW1200's that don't look like they'll ever move again. But even the standard railroad type would be better than what they're trying to pawn off now. :)
The subject is pretty self explanatory.
I rode one today (Saturday) around 6:40PM on the B line (green line) going outbound.
The signs still said gov't center and the T/O that I spoke to said they are "crap". Hopefully the major kinks such as derailments are gone for good.
-Harry
NYCrail.com over 3000 subway photos
I caught 3840 in a 2 car train around 11am this morning. Unfourtnately the Type 8's have soo many speed restrictions on the BC line they seriously drag the line. They ran 4 2 car trains on the entire line every 15 min. It was intresting. Stevie
Any pictures?
Nope- I was on the way to a concert. I will try to get some later this week if they are still in service.
-Harry
When was flourescent lighting added in the tunnels from Court Square to Metropolitan Av?
When the stations were re-lit, 1983-84 IIRC, and I dont always RC.
wayne
I was going to say about 20 years ago. I would have been right.
When I was riding around the system at the time, I saw some of the new lighting at some of the stations. For some reason I had always thought that stations had light yellow tiles.
Is RTO a high rank, if so or not, what do you need to be hired, (experience, previous ta rank, etc.)
thanks
RTO means "Rapid Transit Operations." Personel like train operators and conductors are part of RTO.
Why is it that all BMT trains are so goddamn slow....If its the signals then put in new ones, i go from atlantic to cortelyou every day on the Q and it is so slow, what took once 6-7 minutes now takes over 15
Trains were slowed down in reaction to the WillyB wreck of 1995.
Tell me about it. I used to take the Q every day. Now I live in Manhattan and the 1/2/3 and B/C put the Q to shame. TO SHAME i say!
---BMdoobieW
It's been a long process. Every time there's an incident, the TA reacts with a slow order. One of the great thrills of the Brighton Express was the run from Kings Highway to Newkirk, with a mighty Triplex thundering down the hill into the latter station to be spotted precisely at the 8-car marker. Then there was some kind of incident at Newkirk (overshoot? I forget) and they put a slow order at Avenue H.
It's kind of like if DOT responded to highway accidents by permanently changing the speed limit from 55 to 30 for a half-mile in front of each accident site.
Is this recent? There used to be a timed signal on the Manhattan bound local track, but that was removed years ago.
--Mark
No, I'm talking 40 years ago. They didn't put a timer on the express, they put a slow order. If they removed it, that's good news.
The Q Brightliners would run down that stretch full throttle. They must have hit over 50 before braking. If I'm not mistaken, the slow order is only in effect at that location during November, with the accumulation of falling leaves.
ok...maybe not all people, but the stupidity of the designers of the IND, if they planned to "recapture" the BMT, why are subways going into brooklyn so f***ed up, on the map you see 5 tunnels and one bridge, but as soon as they go into brooklyn, the rugters street tunnel and the cranberry only meet with one another and no other line
Trye the BMT only has the manny B and the rathole, but they have good transfers with the IRT
if we wanted to do a real project, make a model plan of a new alignment in the downtown brooklyn area, like have every line, even the G go through one station somewhere like an Atlantic-Pacific supercomplex, with croos platform tranfers to every system IND BMT IRT LIRR
well of course everyone knows doing this, (cutting brooklyn off will destroy the city economy) but im just speculation on way of making transit better, not rediculous projects like exteding the 7 to the javits center for 20 billion $$$
well how would you make the new downtown brooklyn connection (think big-reconfigure crystie style x10000)
You can't really do anything with Downtown Brooklyn area. The tracks are too tied up into each other worse than the spider webs in the secret room in my house undiscovered for 40 years. One can only hope for such things as DeKalb-Rutgers and a transfer between Lawrence & Jay Streets. I mean, for crying out loud, the entrances are RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FROM EACH OTHER! How much could it possibly cost to build a covered pedestrian walkway over the street between a Jay Street exit stair and a Lawrence Street exit stair? Or even an out-of-system transfer would be good. Or maybe you could move Lafyette or Fulton Street stations (you don't need both literally in the exact same spot) a few blocks west to be inline with DeKalb Av Station.
think big-reconfigure crystie style x10000
OK...you want insane idea? Youasked for it...Two tracks branch out from the lower level expresses of Culver between Bergen & Carroll, turn on about 6th or 7th Street, and merge with the 4th Avenue Line.
(more rational idea) Build third track on Myrtle Av Line for express configuration, between Wyckoff & Central. Rebuild upper level tracks at Myrtle/Bway. Connect these tracks directly to the Crosstown subway at Bedford-Nostrand Avenue. I have this in my fantasy system, the route that runs it is the P. I can't figure out if it should be brown or green, but I just instinctively went with green. This would provide direct service from Myrtle Ave Line to downtown Brooklyn, making more flexibility in the Montague/MB situation because a service from Nassau south would not be neccessary all day weekdays.
You meant "The Stupidity of Historical Dead Dudes".
Anyway, watch it, Sonny, or I'll beat you with my cane and gum your ankle.
And smack him across his face with the deadman's controller from a BMT Standard! :)
Yeah, that would hurt a bit. And I have the controller from 2000 (yes, seriously)! Of course, you have to take my word for it, because it looks pretty much like the controller from 2002, or 2390, or ...
>>> ok...maybe not all people, but the stupidity of the designers of the IND <<<
Do you know something about the age of the designers of the IND that the rest of us do not? I had never heard that they were a geriatric group.
Considering that the purpose of the IND was to put the BMT out of business with competition rather than supplement it, it is not surprising and not stupid that there were no convenient connections.
Tom
We have to teach these young whippersnappers a lesson, Tom.
Let's tie them to chairs and tell them stories. I'll start with "when I was your age, gas was 17.9 cents a gallon. And they used to check your oil and clean your windshield too! And they wore spiffy uniforms, gave you free dishes, and said "Sir" and "Thank you!" And with every fillup, the better station owners would fix you up with their cute daughters! Yessiree!!!"
Over to you, Tom. After an hour or two of that, these kids will crack like eggs. :)
>>> Over to you, Tom. After an hour or two of that, these kids will crack like eggs. <<<
Sorry, I don't have any of those old stories, but of course I remember how tough it was when we had to walk seven miles to school each day through rain, sleet and drifting snow (uphill both ways). :-)
Tom
What?! You mean there wasn't even rapid transit back in THOSE days? :)
I did this one once before I think, but as they say, the first thing you lose as you get older is your memory. Good thing it's not a vital organ. :)
In my day, we couldn't afford shoes, so we went barefoot. In winter, we had to wrap our feet with barbed wire for traction.
In my day, we didn't have MTV or in-line skates, or any of that stuff. No, It was 45s and regular old metal-wheeled roller skates, and the 45s always skipped, so to get them to play right you'd weigh the needle down with something like quarters, which we never had because our allowances were way too small, so we'd use our skate keys instead and end up forgetting they were taped to the record player arm so that we couldn't adjust our skates, which didn't really matter because those crummy metal wheels would kill you if you if you hit a pebble anyway, and in those days roads had real pebbles on them, not like today.
In my day, we didn't have rocks. We had to go down to the creek and wash our clothes by beating them with our heads.
When I was your age, we didn't have fake doggie-do. We only had real doggie-do, and no one thought it was a bit funny.
In my day, we didn't have fancy health-food restaurants. Every day we ate lots of easily recognizable animal parts, along with potatoes.
In my day, we didn't have hand-held calculators. We had to do addition on our fingers. To subtract, we had to have some fingers amputated.
In my day, we didn't get that disembodied, slightly ticked-off voice saying 'Doors closing.' We got on the train, the doors closed, and if your hand was sticking out, it scraped along the tunnel all the way to the next station and it was a bloody stump at the end. But the base fare was only 35 cents.
In my day, we didn't have water. We had to smash together our own hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
Kids today think the world revolves around them. In my day, the sun revolved around the world, and the world was perched on the back of a giant tortoise.
Back in my day, '60 Minutes' wasn't just a bunch of gray-haired, liberal 80-year-old guys. It was a bunch of gray-haired, liberal 60-year-old guys.
In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope you could outrun him.
Back in my day, they hadn't invented electricity. We had to watch television by candlelight.
In my day, we didn't have Strom Thurmond. Oh, wait. Yes we did.
Wait! You forgot about the horse-drawn subway trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope ... we didn't have those either. Unca Sparky had to drag those cars around by himself. :)
Geez...ya killed me with those Kev! LOL!
In my day, we didn't have hand-held calculators. We had to do addition on our fingers. To subtract, we had to have some fingers amputated.
And if you needed to count to 11, you had to unzip ... no, I'd better stop.
(Women get to count to twelve. Similar technique)
Hahahaha ... nah, we hit the reciprocal button on our pants and pulled off our socks. :)
Heh. My father did that to me when I was a teenanger. I responded with: "Well, in your day people died of dyptheria & polio & black people had to ride in the back of the bus!". Not everything that is old was great.
Well, maybe the D-types ...
Yeah, but back in OUR day, we were getting some and barely had time to photograph trains. :)
Ya and you rarely had to worry about wearing a jimmy hat! :)
Too bad I missed out on the era of 'Free Love'. Outta sight, man! :)
Heh. Well, it wasn't "free" ... it did cost you a dinner, a movie or your stash. But that TA Monkey suit *was* a babe magnet. :)
The IND in Downtown Brooklyn could be made a lot better connected by the construction of a few transfer passageways:
Jay St (A)(C)(F) - Lawrence St (M)(N)(R)(W)
Hoyt / Schermerhorn Sts (A)(C)(G) - Hoyt St (2)(3)
Fulton St (G) - Lafayette Av (C) - Atlantic / Pacific Complex (2)(3)(4)(5)(M)(N)(Q)<Q>(R)(W) (okay, this one would need moving walkways)
More ambitious would be to restore the Myrtle Avenue El, with slightly adjusted stops, re-opening Myrtle/Flatbush for the (Q)<Q>, and having a free transfer to the (A)(C)(F)(M)(N)(R)(W) at Jay St.
not rediculous projects like exteding the 7 to the javits center for 20 billion $$$
How is it ridiculous? I'm not sure of your standards, but as far as I know, it won't cost that much and it will have much more benefit, giving a vital link to the Olympics and if they don't come, improvement of transit for the potential-ridden West Side.
If you believe NYC lore, Mayor Hylan built the IND with the sole purpose of running the BMT and IRT out of business. At the time, the latter two were privately owned enterprises while NYC built the IND. This purpose explains why the IND routings were so strangely close to existing IRT & BMT routes in The Bronx and Brooklyn. (Of course, at the time, Queens was neither populated enough or important enough to became another rapid transit battlefield.) Had the IND service been made convenient to riders of the BMT or IRT, this would not have served Hylan's purpose.
By the way, it would be considerably easier for us "old people" to read your post if you made a humble attempt at proper punctuation. Perfection is not required.
Also when the original IND was well on the way to being built, NYC announced its expansion plans a/k/a IND Second System. If not for the Depression in 1929 and WWII in 1939, the IND system would have outclassed the "private interests"
And Queens wouls have had more subways around! :(
There would have also been a subway line that went to Staten Island!
Yikes, how could I have forgotten them! An SI Subway connection would have been very nice. I'd imagine it would connect with the current SIR?
From St. George to Tottenville.
OK. I'll bite. What the heck does the phrase "PROFF" mean? I'm guessing it's some kind of inside joke around here based on something somebody said in some post a long time ago and it caught on. But I've only been here about a month, so I missed the coining of that term. Would someone please tell me what it means? I want to laugh, too.
BTW, Could someone also please explain to me the meaning behind the thread a couple of days ago about the same train that caught up to itself and went faster than itself? I actually sat there and read through the dozens of responses and sub-threads and couldn't find a logical explanation. I may be smart, but I'm pretty slow.
For years one of our regular posters, Sallam Allah, a transplanted New Yorker living in California who is very slightly deficient in his spelling and grammar and writing style has been writing "proff" instead of "proof". He has continued to do it even after it became a forum private joke. As far as that thread you're talking about, I'm not aware of it and have no explanation.
Here's the one: The Fastest NYC Subway Car
Oh yeah, I almost forgot-thanks.
People are always arguing about which cars are faster (or slower) than others, with non-scientific proof such as "races" observed on adjacent tracks between different types of equipment. Of course, these races are bogus since a lot of factors will explain why a train on one track is going faster than another--signals, curves, schedules, how much coffee the T/O had, whether he/she is thinking about dinner, etc. etc.
So Train Dude decided to make a joke about two trains of identical equipment racing each other, and since one train made better time than the other, it proved that the particular type of equipment was "faster than itself."
Since SubTalk is full of people like myself who like a good joke and have too much free time, we picked up that ball and ran with it ... my own observation was probably the only one based on solid physics, noting that according to Einstein, both trains were operating at the same speed, but the track underneath one was receding faster than underneath the other. (If you have too much free time, my observation was based on Einstein's ideas about the constant speed of light).
Explaining a joke takes a lot of the punch out of it, but maybe you'll be able to sleep better now. ;-)
No, I get that it's a joke, but after I stopped laughing I was trying to figure out how that's physically possible. If the last local A was that late, shouldn't it have been running express to make up time? And which one got there first?
As for sleep, I'm screwed, I'm still up at a quarter after 2 and I gotta go railfanning tomorrow (I mean today), leaving at 10. So far I've lost at least 15 minutes of sleep, and I don't really feel sleepy. But at least now I know where PROFF came from.
Actually, train races in themselves are a kind of interesting subject.
The New York Central and the Pennsy used to have New York-Chicago trains (the 20th Century and the Broadway) that were timed to leave their departure cities and arrive their destination cities at identical times, but by far different routes. IIRC. the fastest time was leave New York at 6 pm, arrive Chicago at 9 am. (If they still could do that today, there might actually still be some business travel on the Lake Shore or Three Rivers). Anyway, there was a stretch from (IIRC) Gary, IN to Chicago where the two trains ran parallel and raced each other into Chicago.
Actually, train races in themselves are a kind of interesting subject.
The PRR and the Reading raced each other between Camden and Atlantic City 100 years ago, the result being that they were the fastest trains in the world.
I had emailed Sallam Allah on a serious note several times and received responses in his famous atrocious spelling and diction. Just so happens that I discovered another poster whom I had worked with on previous employment who went over to MTA North...spelling and diction even worse. There comes a point when you cannot fake it anymore.
On a very serious note, Sallam Allah has a son who serves in the US military forces. Chances are that he is in active service in the Persian Gulf and deserves a moment of silent prayer and rememberance.
CI Peter
Amen ... and to all who are serving and in harm's way.
Talk about internal conflict. Salaam likely doesn't know which side to root for.
If you could build your own high speed rail line within the Philadelphia
City Limits.....where would it go, what type of vehicles would you use, and
what color would it be?
Mine would be the Red Line (I know...PATCO kind of owns red already...but i
dont want to take Purple from the Norristown line)
It would begin in South Philadelphia at the Plaza (where Home Depot and
Wal-Mart currently stand). Articulated Light Rail Vehicles would use the
Center Median of Delaware Avenue where to Spruce Street. It would then the
plaza there to Front Street. The lines would then use Front Street to Arch
then Arch to 12th....12th to Callowhill...then Broad and Callowhill to the
old train tunnel which would take the line through the Art Museum area over
to 33rd Street...where north of Girard it would operate on 33rd to the
Strawberry Mansion Bridge. It would take the Bridge, over to Belmont
Avenue.....connect from there to City Line Avenue and loop at the Strip Mall
with the ACME market.
Extend the Broad Street Express service along Roosevelt Boulevard all the way to Bensalem.
I'd be grateful if SEPTA could get its Roosevelt Blvd. extension built (extending the Broad Street Line with a diversion from Olney Terminal); this is an extension of the Market-Frankford line from Bridge-Pratt would meet the Broad Street Line and offer a free, ADA-compliant interchange.
I just got back from Philly. I did some railfanning of course. I was very impressed with certain aspects of Philadelphia's subway system.
I was also amazed at the development of Philadelphia's waterfront. As is the case in most cities, urban redevelopment means renovating old buildings in former industrial areas, and turning them into lofts, galleries, and tony restaurants for yuppies. I have to say, after railfanning on the Market St. line, and seeing the neighborhoods that the "el" goes through, New York is in much better shape than most people think.
Even scarier was Camden, and the neighborhoods that surround the PATCO train. As I paid my fare, and started to read the newspaper, I came across an article regarding a woman who was kidnapped and killed at the Ferry AV PATCO station. When I saw the station, and it's surroundings, I was not surprised that such an incident could happen there. And just I saw in Philly, "urban redevelopment" meant sprucing up the waterfront(where there is a nice new baseball stadium), while ignoring the areas that truly need attention.
Honestly, I don't think SEPTA needs to expand. I didn't see any significant overcrowding on trains or the highways. Things seem to move along pretty smooth in Philly. To me, a New Yorker City Train Operator who lives in Queens, and is forced to commute all the way to the Bronx, where I deal with the Major Deagan and Cross Bronx or the Lexington Ave lines on a regualar basis, I'll take the pace of Philadelphia any day.
"Honestly, I don't think SEPTA needs to expand. I didn't see any significant overcrowding on trains or the highways. Things seem to move along pretty smooth in Philly."
You obviously didn't stick around to see the daily 12-mile backups on the Schuylkill Expressway or the tie-ups on I-95.. The El is also pretty crowded through center city and up to Frankford on most days that I've ridden it. Quite often Standing Room Only.
I'll admit it, I didn't see the backups on the Schuylkill, nor did I see the backups on 95. But I know all about Philly traffic jams. Don't forget, I get ABC, NBC, and CBS affiliates from Philly when I'm visiting family in PA. I also listen to 106.1-WJJZ where I hear about Philly traffic jams all the time. Believe it or not, I didn't lose JJZ's signal until I was half way through Staten Island. My girlfriend asked me, "How can you drive all the way from Philly to Queens without using a single rest stop"? I said, "You're talking to a man who has done 3 trips on the 4 line, third trip to New Lots. This is a walk in the park for me".
Philadelphia's subway system is a small shuttle service compared to NYCTA. Seriously. The seating on your subway trains is designed like a commuter busliner. A narrow aisle divides cushoned seating. You could never have that here in NYC. Philly subway may have SRO conditions. But they don't run cattle cars like NYC does.
"Philadelphia's subway system is a small shuttle service compared to NYCTA. Seriously. The seating on your subway trains is designed like a commuter busliner. A narrow aisle divides cushoned seating. You could never have that here in NYC. Philly subway may have SRO conditions. But they don't run cattle cars like NYC does. "
Yes, they do, and the buses are often backed up as well. You haven't a clue unless you've lived there and visited all the neighborhoods.
Indeed, SEPTA is often SRO during rush hours, like any other system.
Philly in general is smalller than NYC of course, so we don't need as much built in capcity for subways and highways as New York does.
Indeed, SEPTA is often SRO during rush hours, like any other system.
Philly in general is smalller than NYC of course, so we don't need as much built in capcity for subways and highways as New York does.
So close and yet worlds away.
I still have to shake my head sometimes at the pace of things here.
I am down in the Philly area for 8 years now, though the surrounding areas of Bucks & Montgomery counties are pretty, the ciy of Phila
(I am almost not sure its a city at times) is pretty small minded
Most people I work with have never been to NYC, it would only be what
an hour and a half from them? They think the El & the Sub are crowded, please, try to squeeze on an E or F from Roosevelt in the morning. (Isn't it all considered the train? Why call them seperate things?)
The Regional rail, some times runs 1 or 2 car trains, my co workers
cant imagine 12 car trains, always having 3 in a seat on the way back and forth, bar cars, or even staying out till 4 am
If its not a pretzel or steak sandwich, its hard to find anyone who
has eaten Cuban, or Indian, much less Argentine or Colombian.
Its pretty much black and white, a sprinkling of asians, you hardly
ever hear spanish, or any other languages like you do in NY.
Who is Tito Puente, Celia Cruz, most people dont know
Going thru on the railroad you see pretty nasty neighborhoods,
I know parts of the city (NY) are bad, but N. Phila and some parts
of West Phila are the pits.
Traffic can be pretty bad, cause the highways are limited,the Schuylkill is 2 lanes, and no where to expand. Rt 422 is a 2 lane road, with plenty of room to widen it, yet nothing is done about it. Roads do not seem to get much attention when it snows, not like they do up on the island.
People don't seem to even go to Phila for much of anything, unless they work there, (none of my neighbors do), and it seems to me a hell of alot of people reverse commute to jobs in the suburbs.
I can drive to Center City about 30 miles away, in about 30 minutes
This is at 6-630 am, but the traffic outbound is heavier.
The accent and phrases are annoying at times, but it is where I live
so I deal with it. Why do I stay?
The things you do for love!
And the chance to own a house on a creek, across from a wooded park
and not pay astronomical taxes, car fare, ( my monthly trans pass is good on all trains busses and trolleys no additional fare)
No tax on clothes,which NY has too, and we really stepped into the real world liquor store sold on Sundays!
Aaaahhhh, Philadelphia, the city that loves you back!
Give me New York anytime!
Well, I can say the same thing about NYC.
I work in NYC and live in Philadelphia.....and I would never consider living in the NYC area.
What's wrong with having space on the subway car for your morning commute, what's wrong with not having to wait in a long line when you go to the donut shop, what's wrong with not having a not-so-clean deli on every corner.
I live in Downtown Philadelphia.....right off of Rittenhouse Square which is bright, vibrant, and full of activity early in the am through the late night. I think it is wrong of you to assume that there is no action in Philly's downtown just because there is no traffic jam on the expressway at 11pm.....
BTW....SEPTA is planning to extend Regional Rail service even later in the evening to accomodate riders who finding themselves staying downtown even later and later
Well, I can say the same thing about NYC.
I work in NYC and live in Philadelphia.....and I would never consider living in the NYC area.
What's wrong with having space on the subway car for your morning commute, what's wrong with not having to wait in a long line when you go to the donut shop, what's wrong with not having a not-so-clean deli on every corner.
I live in Downtown Philadelphia.....right off of Rittenhouse Square which is bright, vibrant, and full of activity early in the am through the late night. I think it is wrong of you to assume that there is no action in Philly's downtown just because there is no traffic jam on the expressway at 11pm.....
BTW....SEPTA is planning to extend Regional Rail service even later in the evening to accomodate riders who finding themselves staying downtown even later and later
I didn't assume anything, that is my experience.
Yeah Rittenhouse Sq is nice, but its an oasis compared to the rest of the city. (I work on 19th & Market)
If it bothers you to work in NY, why not stay in Center City and try to make what you would in NY?
I know, why not go back to NY, well I would love to, and I go just about everyother weekend, so maybe one day I wiill return, but for now
I will stay.
Thanks! Wanna come with?
I loved the cheesesteaks at Geno's and Pat's in the Italian Market. Philly's Italian Market is amazing. It's so well-preserved, unlike Little Italy in NYC.
Philly is not as ethnically diverse as NYC. But the Latino population does seem to be exploding. With Univision, Telemundo, and a weekly newspaper serving the market, don't be surprised to find that Hispanics represent a significant percentage of Philly's population in 10 years.
While watching the news, I heard a report about a biker gang called the "Warlocks". An associate of that gang was busted for selling pot. How big a deal are the Warlocks in Philly? God. You'd never about a biker gang like that in NYC, Brooklyn, Queens, and certainly not in the Bronx. After spending a few days in Philly, I left with a better understanding of why Extreme Championship Wrestling was so popular down there. ECW! ECW! ECW! ECW!
"I was also amazed at the development of Philadelphia's waterfront. As is the case in most cities, urban redevelopment means renovating old buildings in former industrial areas, and turning them into lofts, galleries, and tony restaurants for yuppies. I have to say, after railfanning on the Market St. line, and seeing the neighborhoods that the "el" goes through, New York is in much better shape than most people think."
Very true. Philadelphia has a lot of poverty and did not achieve the same kind of success as an urban core as New York. And tax policies are an issue. Still, there is potential.
"Even scarier was Camden,"
The waterfront is great, Campbell Soup Co. and GE, Rutgers University, City Hall, Wiggins Park, Aquarium, - all OK. The rest of the neighborhoods have serious problems. But they are better, compared to 10 years ago.
"Honestly, I don't think SEPTA needs to expand. I didn't see any significant overcrowding on trains or the highways."
Not to be insulting or anything, but you really don't know what you're talking about. You can't have a reasonable opinion about which you have no facts. And an afternoon of railfanning doesn't count.
How about these ideas:
1) Market St (Blue Line):
Build branch off the main El, at Front St and I-95. Build right -of-way over I-95, with stations at Penn Treaty, Allegheney, Bridge St-Bridesburg, Wissinoming-Tacony, Rhawn St-City Facilities [Police Academy, Water Dept, Prisons], Torresdale-Linden Ave, Cornwells Heights [a multi-modal station for subway, commuter trains, Amtrak, and express buses off I-95, as well as that large Park-n-ride], then turn westward on Woodhaven Rd to a large terminal at Franklin Mills Mall, where an across-the-platform connection would be made to the...
...2) Broad St (Orange Line):
Starting at Franklin Mills, the route would run west over Woodhaven Rd, stopping at Academy Rd, Thornton Rd, Roosevelt Blvd, then turn south along the CSX rail right of way, stopping at Red Lion Rd, then turning into a subway under Bustleton Ave, stopping at Welsh Rd-Grant Ave, Bells Corner-Castor Ave, Cottman Ave, Harbinson-Magee Aves, then turn under Roosevelt Blvd, stopping at Oxford Circle, Adams Ave [using the existing station built in the 50's], Feltonville [between C and D sts], Rising Sun Ave, 5th st, 9th st, then join the Broad St Subway express tracks. [The express tracks between Hunting Park and Olney would be used as storage layups].
Now another set of tracks [branching off the local tracks at Erie] would be used for ANOTHER branch of the Broad St line to be routed as this, onto a currently abandoned CSX track, then turn in a SW direction on another rail line, stopping at Wissahickon Ave [outside of the Midvale Depot], Fox St, then turning on the old R6 Reading Norristown line, stopping at Queen Lane- MCP, Midvale Ave-East Falls, Wissahickon Transfer Center [relocated and extensively rebuilt at the existing Wissahickon Station], Manayunk, and a new transfer station at Ivy Ridge. This would tie in the Broad St Branch with a COMMUTER RAIL line to Norristown, Pottstown, and Reading. This railroad route would use the old Pennsy Manayunk R-O-W, over the railroad bridge over the Schuylkill, then down the R6 Cynwyd route. The R8 would take over the old Reading route to Center City, instead of the roundabout way via North Philly and the NEC.
On a final note, the Franklin Mills term would have this layout:
From the east, the Blue line tracks would enter the FM term on tracks 1 and 3, they would be stub ended at the west side of the station. The crossover would be east of the station. The Orange Line would come from the west, on tracks 2 and 4. They would stub-end at the east side of the station, and the crossover would be west of the station. That would clear up the issue over the different gauges on these lines.
The original El and original Subway lines would continue to operate. The new stations on the El paraelling the R7 trains would replace those patches of dirt SEPTA calls stations at Bridesburg, Wissinoming, Tacony, and that ugly path of Bricks at Holmesburg.
How`s that for some new SEPTA lines?
YOu could make it the Yellow Line- nothing is taking that up. It would be nice to have some articulated light rail in the city, besides the subway surface lines. (I know they don't use articulated LRVs)
.............sequence in this Don Knotts movie where he is on the BMT subway riding out to Coney Island in 1941, along with his wife and a Navy buddy. There is a quick shot of the train rumbling through the tunnel (obviously a model, but, even more odd, the cars appear to be patterned after IRT World'S Fair Stienways (guess the Hollywood people figured the audience wouldn't notice that an IRT train was heading for Coney Island!!) Cut to the interior of the jam-packed car....close up of the destination sign reading; "SEA BEACH EXPRESS STILLWELL AVE CONEY ISLAND" The car interior is obviously a Hollywood prop, following no specific car design, but yet manages to give the feeling of authenticity, with overhead fans whirring, bare light bulbs,car card ads,straphangers, and pull-down window shades (like the original BMT Standards) The car doors look like R1/9 type....There is another segment where Don comes out of the subway kiosk at Flatbush Ave, and you can see metal BMT LINES and IRT signs plainly.
"I guess the Hollywood people figured the audience wouldn't notice that an IRT train was heading for Coney Island!"
You have a gift for understatement. Hollywood tends to show scenes of the NYC Subway that New Yorkers know are wrong. But the rest of the country believe to be correct.
I have a great one for you.
"The Caveman's Valentine", with Samuel L. Jackson (great movie). Anyways, one of the last scenes is shot in NYC subway. Now, they show a typical trunk-express station. Then, when he is about to enter the train, all of a sudden, the STATION switches to a septa(?) stop, complete with, you guessed it, a septa train. Now, the scene takes place in the SEPTA train, while there is video of an NYCT train (looking out the window). The most amazing thing is how they think that even a NORMAL PERSON won't realize that magically, tiles appeared on the vertical beams. Or, that round windows on Septa switch to the Squarish windows of NYC. Amazing.
Rent the movie, though. It's a good film.
If you want to look at a rock video showing the subway, get Rod Stewart's "Downtown train". It shows the J train going on or off the Williamsburgh Bridge in Brooklyn. However when they show Rod singing on the platform, they show another type of train set. I'd say probably the British Railway in London.
The "other" trains in that video were NJ Transit trains. Shot in Hoboken.
Peace,
ANDEE
Has anybody on this site actually ridden the NX in 1967-8 on a regular basis??? With all that I hear of that line, I could envision the trains with barely all of the seats filled on each car in each direction. Was that the case?? Tony
I rode it a few times on the PM rush railfanning. Ridership was indeed sparse.
I did ride the NX. It never pulled much of a crowd, either way. And almost noone who was not a railfan did the total reverse thing, starting at Brighton Beach.
The Los Angeles times has a feature article in the March 23, 2003 edition concerning the history of streetcars in Los Angeles. There is nothing there that seasoned railfans do not already know, but it includes the following:
"It's hard to believe in car-mad Southern California, but even before the beginning of the last century, and for a half-century thereafter, the streetcar was the model and the marvel of the nation's urban mass transit. For the price of a nickel, a dime or two bits, the trolley whizzed over more than 1,100 miles of tracks connecting the Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach to the San Fernando Valley, and from San Bernardino to Redondo Beach. Tourists rode from downtown to the heights of Mt. Lowe in the San Gabriel Mountains."
The article takes the position that although GM et al may have hastened the demise of streetcars, they were not the cause, and the streetcars would have died out anyway.
The article is here. Free registration required.
Tom
Coincidentally, the San Pedro Red LIne which is abuilding as we type, had their open house yesterday (March 22). They have fully restored PE 1058 (originally the 937, 1903 vintage) and it is already being test run (though has a burned out traction motor -- new one at shop ready to be installed). They also made two brand new replicas of the PE 500 series; 501 is finished and ready to go, the 500 has a long way to go. These have trucks bought from the Seashore Museum (I think the guide said they came from old Boston subway cars -- and get this -- compressors from NYCTA Redbirds that are now part of the Delaware reef!!! (They got a total of six compressors....three for use and three for spares.)
"....and get this -- compressors from NYCTA Redbirds that are now part of the Delaware reef!!!"
Old cars that look old but sound somewhat new. The NYCT Museum Low-V's and the old MBTA Blue Line MU's come to mind.
Bill "Newkirk"
March 31 will mark 40 years since the end of streetcar operation in LA. Had I grown up there, chances are I would have remembered them, because I do recall certain events prior to 1963.
OTOH I'm too young to remember Chicago's streetcars.
Does any one pass through the Times Sq or Herald Sq stations in the morning? If you do, then for a limited time next week, you will be able to stop by and say hello to me. More details to follow.
---BM
Monday - 4x
Thursday - 6x
Friday - 8x
Saturday - 6x
You gonna be at platform level?
At Times Sq I will/can be, but tomorrow morning, at Herald Sq, I will be at Mezzanine level at the southern most stairway down to the BMT platform.
I'll be at mezzanine level (or platform level at the bottom of the stairs) at the extreme southern end of the southbound BMT platform at 34th/6th. I'll be there between 7:30am and 9:30am, and will be wearing a baseball style cap appropriate for a "transit fan." I look forward to seeing some of you on your way to work in the morning. Note: there are a lot of police patroling 34th/6th so don't try to pull anything funny over on me ;)
---Brian
Only one SubTalker stopped by to see me today. But to your credit, I was not where I'd said I'd be. I was in the mezzanine above the middle of the platform, not at the southern end. Tomorrow I'll be at Times Sq, at the BMT mezzanine at 40th Street, inside fare control, on the sb side. 7:30am to 9:30am.
---Brian
It was a pleasure to meet you, I really forgot to sing praises on your outstanding pictures, especially the one at Queensboro Plaza (where you were at the roof of the Muni Parking lot on the south side of the Flushing line.) with the redbird in front of the imposing Manhattan skyline. Actually, last night I rode the #7 from 74th st/Broadway towards Manhattan, and WOW what a clear evening and a view of the world's greatest skyline. If I only had more time for this hobby, I would have an AWESOME shot. I REALLY looked high and low all over for someone standing that might be you at the 32nd st/BMT side (which is the southernmost stairway on the BMT, as well as the IND platforms on 34th st/Hearld Square.)
Continue to give us more pictures to drool over.
I'm glad you like the photos. I took what I think will be an awesome photo this morning. Before I started doing my thang at 7:30am, I went down to the front of the nb platform at 34th and got a head on shot of a D train. From looking at the preview image on my camera's LCD, it appears like I got a little bit of the "Doug Grotjahn/Steve Zabel/Joe Testagrose" effect going on. What I mean is that you see the light beam from the headlights extending forward, which is due to dust in the air, I think. An example of this is at this link:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_2551.jpg
Anyhow, it was nice meeting you, and I'll see again on Sunday. I'm really sorry about the mix up with the location. You probably did see two of my buddies at 32nd St doing the same thing I was doing. Did you ask either of them if they were me?
---Brian
No, I did see two people there but thought by chance they were just meeting each other. I also saw several plainclothes officers hanging around the service gate at the 32nd st side (they should be at THAT location when the booth closes at 9PM each night, catching those card swipers.). I hope none of the officers bothered you while you were by the newsstand.
See you Sunday, do you think I can get away this time with a pair of throwaway cameras till next time I get the chance to go to B&H at 9th Ave? Or will I need more than 54 shots at Branford?
Yeah, the police did bother us, but we had "papers" so they just took down our info and went on about their business. The thing is that they waited until we had already been there for over an hour to approach us. Then, they kicked out those people in blue jackets that were handing out those brochures for that program to quit smoking. Is it illegal to hand out stuff in the subway? I tried to read the rules about conducting business in that online version of the NYCRR rules book but I got really confused.
---Brian
They were within 20 feet of any stairway, that is not allowed. Since the woman (who offered you the brochure) was by the staircase, she was "obstructing pedestrian traffic".
Distribution of literature is permitted, except withing the following distances (ranging from 15 to 30 feet of said location)
-Any staircase
-A MARKED tower, if the tower has no signage for some strage reason, it is permitted (outside on public space or course)
-Token booth
-inside any covenyance (bus, subway car, or escalator)
-fare control area
Those damm rules concerning comercial activity in the NYCRR (NT State Public Authorities Law) are confusing.
Sadly, no SubTalker stopped by to see me this morning in Times Sq. Tomorrow morning I'll be back at Herald Square and I'll post the details later.
---Brian
I was too late, I wasn't in the Times Square area until about 10:45. I had something I needed to do, so I couldn't be there any earlier.
I have only just recently found this site,, wish there was something similar geared to Chicago rapid transit.
Anyways, a little story to reinforce the previous posts about the dangers of railfanning today.
About a month ago, a friend of mine was spending an otherwise quiet weekend taking pictures and generally railfanning the long since abandoned right of way of the former Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee RR in Libertyville, IL. This was part of the former Mundelein branch. The railroad is long gone, 40 years now, the majority of the ROW in this area is a very nice bicycle path. Some of the original catenary towers remain along one stretch, basically there is one leg of each tower remaining. The railroad carried power lines on the towers, when the railroad quit, they simply kept the power lines as is, and torched off the parts of the catenary towers no longer needed. Somewhat suprisingly that these things still exist and haven't been replaced in 4 decades, but that's another story.
So, my friend is basically strolling the path, in essence using the bike path/former ROW for it's current intended use. He was taking the occasional picture or two of the catenary towers, when he was stopped and questioned by the local police. Turns out that a local resident saw him, and felt it was sufficiently suspicious to call.
To be fair, as mentioned the towers do still carry power lines, there is a Com Ed facility about 1/2 mile to the east of where my friend was questioned, and a water treatment facility about 1/2 mile to the west.
After a number of questions, my friend offered to show the officer his car which was full of various North Shore reference materials (he was trying to match up still existing landmarks with what used to exist). This information satisfied the officer and my friend was asked to simply pack up and leave the area.
Couple of thoughts about this...
1) In this time of heightened security (and even paranoia at some levels) I would suggest that there is no reason to (a) take unneeded chances, and (b)make the life of some poor cop just doing his job any more difficult. It is very easy to see how this above incident could have gone the other way very, very easily,, an angry railfan protesting his first ammendement rights, a cop who has something else on his mind and is in no mood for extraneous b.s,,, could have gotten very ugly very easily. (For basically no reason at all !)
2) While I certainly commend the officer in question in this case for his efforts, and professionalism,, part of me also has to wonder about just how easy it was for my friend to justify his "mission". A plausible excuse, a couple of books, the latest issue of Trains magazine,,, is that all it takes ?
For that reason alone, I think it's easy to see how difficult the job of law enforcement can be, there is no reason for us to make things worse, no matter how innocently it may be.
The simple truth is that this country's greatest strength, our freedoms, is also our greatest weakness. Especially in this time of war I think it's everyone's duty to exercise our freedom to control ourselves.
FoxValley
Isnt that the purpose of the war in Iraq, liberation?
Freedom? Come on, I know what your saying, but things are getting way out of hand, especially way out there in the heartland.
What about the mall upstate NY, who didnt want people wearing T-shirts
protesting/praising whatever the situation in the middle east, they
expelled them, give me a break. Everybody needs to calm down.
I guess next it will be 3 or more people in a group will be considered suspicious?
America, land of the FREE and the BRAVE, not tattle tales, and cowards, questioning every damn thing, want that the communist way, spying and ratting out your freinds, and neighbors?
Next thing you know, they'll pass a law making it illegal to criticize the president or government, and those who do so will be placed in psychiatric wards. Sheesh.
>>> Next thing you know, they'll pass a law making it illegal to criticize the president or government, and those who do so will be placed in psychiatric wards. <<<
How did you get access to Ashcroft's private papers?
Tom
I didn't. That's the way things were in the former Soviet Union. When my uncle visited us from Lithuania in 1980, my father asked him if anyone back at home would believe the things he saw he saw (cars for sale, wel-stocked grocery stores, etc.). My uncle replied they'd lock him up in a psychiatric ward if he were to say anything.
You really don't know what you have until you see this country through the eyes of someone from a dictatorship, or in the case of my uncle, the Iron Curtain.
>>> You really don't know what you have until you see this country through the eyes of someone from a dictatorship, or in the case of my uncle, the Iron Curtain.
I know what it like. I was warned when going to East Berlin that photographing any transportation equipment, including trucks, local transit buses and trams was against the law and if caught taking pictures, I could be charged with espionage.
Our problem seems to be that as the former Iron Curtain countries get new freedoms, we seem to be losing ours in the name of homeland security.
Tom
You got that right.
I *live* by Crossgates Mall in upstate New York. And once the cameras and photographers went away, you're not allowed in at ALL if you have ANY T-Shirt with ANY message other than "Shut up and shop" on it. They had a contingent of 14 patriots who visited outside who were removed from the property and their American flags confiscated.
"Shut up and shop."
There is a site for Chicago Trainsit, It's www.chicago-l.ogr. It is just as good has ncysubway.org is for NYC Trainsit.
Robert
Correction. It's www.chicago-l.org not ogr.
Robert
Correction. It's www.chicago-l.org not ogr.
Whoa! For a minute there I thought ogres got their own TLD. :)
My advice to railfans now, (during the war), is DO NOT ATTEMPT PHOTOGRAPHY,UNLESS YOU ARE ON A FANTRIP OR OTHER ORGANIZED EVENT!!!! We have all heard horror stories over the years of innocent railfans getting bullied by cops/and or railroad police. I come from a police family, and I know trying, frustrating, and dangerous thier jobs can be. But, in any situation, you always have some that make the whole bunch look bad. I still get angry as hell when I think back to the summer of 1977, when I was standing on the WTC-bound PATH platform at Journal Square, waiting for a train. I happened to have my small cassette recorder with me, and, I thought I would make some recordings of passing trains while waiting. To make a long story short, I was approached by a very snotty and dictorial young cop, who was obviously trying to win brownie points with his chief. He started getting very abusive, and, to make it short, he made me come back to the police desk where he filled out a report on me. I was embarrassed and pissed as hell, bieng made to feel like a common criminal, simply because I was making a tape recording of the trains while I waited for mine to pull in. After I was released (this s o b milked it good, going for an Oscar) I called a a PATH official I knew from an interview, who knew I was a railfan, to tell him what happened. He treated it like a joke, no apologies were made. I pointed out that I had taken pictures before, and had never been harrassed, why now with a tape recorder? I guess the cop figured that this skinny 150 lb guy with glasses was non-threating enough to be easy prey....I guess he figured I would be an easy mark, instead of the young punks who were dropping empty beer bottles from the adjacent Summit Avenue Bridge (in PLAIN VIEW of the officer!!) down onto the tracks below.I was made to feel like a criminal, simply because I was making a tape recording WHILE WAITING FOR A TRAIN! As I said, I come from a family of cops, and have the utmost respect for those who do thier job and treat the public with decency and consideration.But, dorks like the officer I encountered in '77, make things more than unpleasant for a law-abiding, unsuspecting railfan. Trust me, I know, and learned the hard way.
As in every other profession, there will always be a few prima donnas.
>>> My advice to railfans now, (during the war), is DO NOT ATTEMPT PHOTOGRAPHY,UNLESS YOU ARE ON A FANTRIP OR OTHER ORGANIZED EVENT!!!! <<<
Which war are you referring to? The one against Iraq or the "War on Terrorism"? If the latter, it like the war on drugs may last forever.
Tom
My advice to railfans now, (during the war), is DO NOT ATTEMPT PHOTOGRAPHY,UNLESS YOU ARE ON A FANTRIP OR OTHER ORGANIZED EVENT!!!!
Aw, shucks. I left home before you posted and I went out today and took about 40 photos of the NYC Subway. I was alone while I took most of the photos, but then I met up with two other people. We were watched, but no one tried to stop us.
---Brian
Sorry, once you give up just a little freedom, you'll never get it back. I was stopped by a MARTA cop last year and he called three other pigs to show up and search me. They held me for two hours because I was taking photos. What did I do after they let me go? I went back and took the photos I wanted. Fuck 'em.
Good for you. Freedom is something you should NEVER give up. That's what America is about. :)
You have a very childish view of what freedom is all about. You simply do not know the facts:
FACT: It's been held in many courts that railroads, evenly publicly owned ones, are considered private property.
FACT: People who insist that they have an inaliable right to photograph on rail property are wrong!
FACT: Railroads, even publicly ownd ones have the right to regulate all activities that take place on their property, INCLUDING PHOTOGRAPHY.
FACT: Railroads, including publicly owned ones, have a right & a responsibility to take necessary steps to protect their facilities and their customers!
FACT: People who insist on photographing rail facilities in violation of the rules, regulations or laws, give the law-abiding railfans a bad name and make it harder for them to peacefully pursue their hobby.
FACT: People who think that their photographic pursuits (in the name of railfanning) are more important than public safety are hopelessly narcissistic .
FACT: Railroads, even publicly ownd ones have the right to regulate all activities that take place on their property, INCLUDING PHOTOGRAPHY.
In this case, however, the MTA is publishing one PUBLIC set of regulations which specifically ALLOW photography subject to rules that say no ancillary equipment - but then issuing a contradictory memo to its employees telling them that photographers are to be reported.
I really do see a problem here, and the potential for lawsuits.
Personally I feel they should go back to the old rules where they issued permits - then all we would have to do is display our permit to police.
I'm not opposed to regulations - I AM opposed to contradictions. If you tell me I CAN do something - don't harass me for doing it.
(I really do see a problem here, and the potential for lawsuits.)
As long at NY police politely ask photographers a few questions and then permit them to go on their way, their is no potential for lawsuits.
After all, the memo didn't tell the police to arrest photographers.
Of course, there is always the possibility that the MTA will change the rules, banning photography, and make that prominently known. That would be unfortunate.
As long at NY police politely ask photographers a few questions and then permit them to go on their way, their is no potential for lawsuits.
Thats fine - but on this board and in Trains Magazine I have read stories where some railfans were detained for hours. That does open the potential for lawsuits.
I heard the ACLU already won a settlement ($20,000 I believe) in a similar situation where some infrastructure buffs were detained for a day for taking pictures from public property.
I believe and hope that NYPD officers get better training in the rights of the public than officers in certain other notorious jurisdictions get.
I wonder if Mr. Ford is aware of 21 NYCRR 1050.9c, the statute that deals with photgraphy in the subway system. It would not surprise me if he doesn't.
--Mark
He is not stating that the activity is illegal, only that it should be reported as suspicious.
If I stood at a bridge over an NYC reservoir with a notebook, and made an entry every time a vehicle came by, I would not be doing anything at all illegal. But it would properly be deemed suspicious, and I would expect an NYC DEC officer to stop pretty soon and ask me why I was there.
The contravention of the MTA's own rules, and violation of civil liberties, would only occur if police actually arrested people for permitted activities, not if they ask who they are and what they're doing.
The contravention of the MTA's own rules, and violation of civil liberties, would only occur if police actually arrested people for permitted activities, not if they ask who they are and what they're doing.
Not only if they arrest you, but also if they "politely" ask you to leave.
"He is not stating that the activity is illegal, only that it should be reported as suspicious."
Finally - someone who sees the difference.
"He is not stating that the activity is illegal, only that it should be reported as suspicious."
Finally - someone who sees the difference.
What amazes me is that transit officials behave as if railfans don't exist - they see a photographer and think "suspicious character"...
The vast majority of people photographing the system are either tourists or railfans - all I am saying is that officials should recognize that and not treat us as the enemy.
>>> The vast majority of people photographing the system are either tourists or railfans - all I am saying is that officials should recognize that and not treat us as the enemy. <<<
I guess you are suggesting that the officials should be clairvoyant enough to not to bother with the vast majority, but only approach the small minority who are the enemy.
Tom
Do you have any evidence to indicate that a subway photographer is more likely to be "the enemy" than a random guy on the street?
I guess you are suggesting that the officials should be clairvoyant enough to not to bother with the vast majority, but only approach the small minority who are the enemy.
I think what I am suggesting is that officials should be informed in these internal memos that railfans DO exist and that there are legitimate reasons for the photography. Therefore, they should approach photographers with that in mind. The horror stories I am hearing of detentions and prolonged questioning are uncalled for.
(The horror stories I am hearing of detentions and prolonged questioning are uncalled for.)
Do keep in mind (a) that some (not all) of those railfans were trespassing and (b) none of these horrors have happened in NYC.
Depends on the circumstances. Like what you're taking pictures of. Or videos.
Taking a video wearing a vest and while standing in the cab of a train (#3?) will lead to a horror story, but its also the world we live in and have to be careful. And what is a legitamate reason for taking video from a cab?
Can you tell me how they are supposed to tell the difference between tourist, railfan and terrorist.
It has been documented that al queda has had people go ahead and take pictures and research a target before an attack.
The authorities are being a little a bit to causious now. It is better then getting blown up.
On the issue of rail fan photography. I have finally gotten around to transfering tons of video I took in the Paris metro last year.
I hope to put up a website soon to share it with the crew.
FACT: Photography is still legal on NYCT property.
FACT: Photography is not terrorism. Photography does not endanger railroad facilities or customers.
And for the dim bulbs among us, no one suggested otherwise. The internal memo simply stated that if an employee sees someone taking pictures, they should report it. The police will determine if the actions are illegal etc.
And I have no problem with that, as long as the police are well-informed.
So what are railfans being warned not to do, then?
Um, hating to say it but....
Railfans aren't being warned about anything. What you read was an INTERNAL memo (which should never have been posted, but that's another thread) to employees, not a public warning.
(Railfans aren't being warned about anything. What you read was an INTERNAL memo )
The warning was a subtalker warning railfans that they might get some police attention if they take pictures. That's a fair warning; some people may not want the attention. Others may properly feel that they are obeying the law and will continue to take pictures and respond to police questions if asked.
What is silly among postings in this thread is the implication that freedoms are being taken away by this memo. Freedoms are only taken away if laws are changed or if those obeying the law are arrested anyway. That hasn't happened yet in New York City (at least not to citizens and not to railfans), though it seems to have happened elsewhere.
Sorry. My mistake. I thought this was the thread started by Mark W.
I've been asked by police here in Portland when i was taking photos of the light rail system why am i taking photos of this system i reached into my camera bag and pulled out photos of trolleys and old style trolley cars and he then said oh a trolley nut....just doin my job....continue...maby we should just work with these people, after all they are feeling the pressure from there boses and WE are in a high alert lets just let them know we understand this time of threats may be valid,lets all just get along.
According to the NY State Public Authorities Law, NYCT cannot have police issue summonses or arrest anyone for taking pictures, as long as equipment other than the camera is not used (e.g. tripods, lighting, etc.), and it is done in public spaces.
So the police can legally stop and question someone as to why they are taking pictures for the protection of NYCT's facilities and equipment, but they CANNOT take any action (arrest, summons, or ejection) on grounds of legal photograpy being done on public spaces for the personal use of the photographer (including web site posting without any compensation whatsover.)
I also would like to add, as to why a little known rule of carrying a legal drink (water, coffee, soda, etc.) is not allowed in any "conveyance" but NYCT makes a big stink about Railfanning.
This "no bottled water in the bus or subway" law should be repealed as it is a waste of time in enforcement.
I doubt it's aimed at bottled water.
Food and drink are often consumed by messy people who leave residues all around, encouraging vermin and making seats unusable. And even with the best of intentions, it's easy to spill a nice sticky soda.
Geez, I'd never think a critical reply would come from my post!
You're right, my post was childish: it was meant as a joke! I use smilies for nothing. :) I didn't mean to get on your side. I'd imagine it would be very bad to be on the receiving end of a CONDENSCENDING post.
Whoops, I forgot the word don't.
One of the sentences should read 'I don't use smilies for nothing. :)'
Actually, I missed the :). So I apologize to you and move my reply up one rank in this thread.
Thank you.
>>> After a number of questions, my friend offered to show the officer his car which was full of various North Shore reference materials (he was trying to match up still existing landmarks with what used to exist). This information satisfied the officer and my friend was asked to simply pack up and leave the area. <<<
I appreciate the need for police to check out "suspicious" photography, but I do not believe that is a good reason to stop all photography. You should carry good ID with you, so you will be able to politely identify yourself to any police officer who asks what you are doing, and accept talking to police officers as part of the picture taking experience. If you go to the same area often, you will probably get to the point that when the local cops come to check on you they will just wave and leave because you are no longer suspicious, but just the local nut taking pictures of trains.
You will also have to expect that your name and address will go into a database, so if shortly after you are seen photographing something, it is sabotaged, you will be on the list of suspects.
Tom
"I appreciate the need for police to check out "suspicious" photography, but I do not believe that is a good reason to stop all photography. You should carry good ID with you, so you will be able to politely identify yourself to any police officer who asks what you are doing, and accept talking to police officers as part of the picture taking experience. If you go to the same area often, you will probably get to the point that when the local cops come to check on you they will just wave and leave because you are no longer suspicious, but just the local nut taking pictures of trains."
The person in question could also have asked the officer to contact a supervisor, because without reasonable suspicion, and absent legally enforceable prohibitions on photography, the officer had no valid authority to request that he leave. He was not loitering, panhandling aggressively etc. etc. This could be handled politely as well.
The reason the officer wanted him to leave was so that he wouldn't have to handle multiple 911 calls from people who picked up the phone about the "guy with the camera." Unfortunately, people can be idiots...
LThe reason the officer wanted him to leave was so that he wouldn't have to handle multiple 911 calls from people who picked up the phone about the "guy with the camera." Unfortunately, people can be idiots...
Or people can be paranoid bedwetting cowards. Somebody like that desparately needs a good thorough stomping - if it were legal, I'd gladly volunteer my services.
One important consideration that folks need to consider - RIGHT OR WRONG, failure to "follow the instructions of a police officer" is a crime unto itself in most jurisdictions. That means ARREST. If you're told to stop or told to leave, you have the option of DOING so, or coming along and tell it to the judge. :(
The largest single subway system in the world belongs to London's Underground, recently expanded with the Jubilee Line. I believe it was 275 route miles prior to the Jubilee Expansion; now its a little over 280 (the expansion was about 11 km, was it not?). The Docklands Light Railway adds more trackage to the rapid transit total in London.
New York City's subway is second, with nearly 240 route miles (232 prior to Archer and 63rd Street additions. Archer Av added route miles, despite the cutback from 168th Street, due to two lines being there now).
BUT: The New York market has the largest integrated mass transit system in the world if you count all its contributors:
The subway
PATH
AirTrain
The coming Red Hook streetcar service
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
New York also has the world's largest commuter rail system feeding it, which has had a bit of expansion recently (Harlem Line to Wassaic, New Haven Line to State Street, and the LIRR to GCT in progress now).
The talk about being number 1 and stagnant is in part nonsense, because while London did manage to finish the Jubilee extension (and it is gorgeous), the rest of the system is in bad shape. New York chose to invest close to $40 billion since 1982, mostly in rebuilding and rehabilitating its tracks and stations, and buying new trains.
Adding lots of new lines while your existing infrastructure crumbles around you makes no sense and doesn't win any points on my score card. New York's doing fine.
(New York also has the world's largest commuter rail system feeding it)
Are you sure of that? Some major cities have much higher proportions of rail commuters than New York, so I would be slightly surprised if NY had the largest system.
In the case of London, the commuter rail system really is much of the rail system of southern England, since commuters travel quite a distance.
"Are you sure of that? Some major cities have much higher proportions of rail commuters than New York, so I would be slightly surprised if NY had the largest system. "
By mileage, yes. Moscow has higher ridership than New York (ten million daily riders) but fewer route miles.
(By mileage, yes. Moscow has higher ridership than New York (ten million daily riders) but fewer route miles.)
I'm still skeptical that London has fewer commuter route miles than NY. Do you have a reference for that?
"I'm still skeptical that London has fewer commuter route miles than NY. Do you have a reference for that?"
Look at the maps and count for yourself.
(Look at the maps and count for yourself. )
Do you have a reference for a map of London commuter rail lines that lists all stations as well as distances? All I can find is an abridged map of SE England (viewable from http://www.britainontrack.com/passes/flexpass.html)
that does not show all stations. I'm not sure it even shows all lines.
Here is the Eastern Region.
Here is the Southern Region and London Underground.
Here is the London Midland Region.
The track map of the Western Region is not available to order yet.
British James just posted a useful reference. However, you couldn't count every entire region as just being a feeder, directly or indirectly, to London - else we'd have to count at least 50% of NJT's route miles as being relevant to NY's total.
SEPTA also feeds traffic to NY via R7 to NJ Transit at Trenton.
The whole of what British Rail used to call Network Southeast is the London-centred commuter network, and it can be seen on the published London Connections maps (though I'm not sure where to find those online). The operating companies that have replaced British Rail at privatisation are in three groups - the main lines (long distance express services), the regional rail companies (slower local services in the regions, not going to London at all), and the London commuter companies (the former Network Southeast area): Connex South Eastern, Govia South Central, South West trains, Thames Trains, Thameslink, Chiltern Trains, Silverlink, West Anglia Great Northern (WAGN Trains), First Great Eastern, and c2c. These extend to about 75 miles out of London in most directions - those few lines which go further than that aren't really commuter services, I would concede.
I am certain that the Network Southeast area has far more stations, more trains and more passengers than LIRR + MNCR + NJT combined. Some of the NYC commuter lines have only a peak-hour service and nothing at the weekends. The London commuter network has seven days a week service on almost all lines, with off-peak frequencies of half-hourly or better at the vast majority of stations. Even within the city limits of Greater London itself, there are more national rail stations (over 300) than tube stations (about 275). Compare NYC with 475 or so subway stations but fewer than 100 other stations (SIR, LIRR and MNCR) within the city limits.
So - I agree that the NYC subway is the greatest in the world, even though London has (just) the larger route mileage. NYC subway has more stations, and far more passengers than the tube.
But there is no way the NY commuter network is the world's largest! That statement is simply untrue.
Here is a reference. It doesn't look like it has every station. But it shows 20 lines extending radially from London, 40-80 miles each, plus many connections. In contrast, New York has about 12 similar lines. And some of New York's, like Pascack Valley and Raritan, have very little service.
http://www.britainontrack.com/maps/maps.html
http://www.britainontrack.com/maps/maps.html
The Southeast Britain map is complete and accurate, so far as the lines and stations outside the Greater London boundary is concerned. The Tube map is just that, the London Underground map, which also shows the Docklands Light Rail. What falls between the two stools, and isn't shown on either map, is the part of the national rail network within the Greater London boundary (which, as I said in my earlier post, actually has more stations than the tube, by a narrow margin). This includes some heavily used lines which are wholly within Greater London (like the Kingston Loop, Charing Cross-Hayes, Liverpool Street-Chingford, etc.) and not simply the in-London parts of lines that extend further out.
I thought there was a piece missing. I used to work for a company that had an office in Isleworth west of London, and I didn't see that station anywhere.
"And some of New York's, like Pascack Valley and Raritan, have very little service. "
Raritan is not an appropriate example. I've taken that line a few times. It has scheduled service throughout the day. If I recall correctly I transferred to PATH at Hoboken (but that still counts as feeding the NY market).
"But there is no way the NY commuter network is the world's largest! That statement is simply untrue."
But it is true, and the track maps prove it.
"Some of the NYC commuter lines have only a peak-hour service and nothing at the weekends."
Which ones are you referring to?
(But it is true, and the track maps prove it. )
In fact, if you were to look at my reference, you would see it is not true. 20 commuter lines in London exceeds 12 in NY. And those 12 include Pascack Valley, not exactly a hotbed of activity (8 trains weekdays, none weekends).
"In fact, if you were to look at my reference, you would see it is not true. 20 commuter lines in London exceeds 12 in NY"
Not the metric we're talking about. And NY has 15 branches, not 12. Route mileage exceeds London's.
Have a look at the size of network there is centred on London:
South-East England:
Greater London:
Note that the South-East England map is out of date and in fact certain lines now extend further from London than that map shows. I can't be bothered to count every mile of track, but to give you an idea of scale, Exeter Saint David's is 193 miles 12 chains from Waterloo, Weymouth is 168 miles 61 chains from Waterloo, Brighton is 50 miles 49 chains from Victoria, and Dover is 77 miles 23 chains from Charing Cross via Ashford (Kent).
There is also a planned extension of the network, hopelessly behind timetable, as the name suggests: Thameslink 2000:
Thank you for those maps.
And I can attest that commuters go even beyond the boundaries of those maps. 15 years ago I rode a 17:00 train to Ipswich, and lots of obvious commuter types stayed on for Norwich, which isn't even on the map.
20 commuter lines in London exceeds 12 in NY. And those 12 include Pascack Valley, not exactly a hotbed of activity (8 trains weekdays, none weekends).
Pascack Valley probably has the record for the least-busy commuter line in the New York area. If you count branches off of lines, however, Pascack Valley no longer has this dubious title. The Waterbury branch of Metro-North's New Haven line has only six trains a day on weekdays, four on weekends. Yet that's busier than the LIRR's main line from Ronkonkoma to Greenport, with a mere four trains on weekdays and two on weekends.
The LIRR's Lower Montauk route in Queens has only two train a day, but I didn't count it because it's more like an alternative routing than a actual line or branch.
(However, you couldn't count every entire region as just being a feeder, directly or indirectly, to London - else we'd have to count at least 50% of NJT's route miles as being relevant to NY's total. )
I would count the entire line to Phila as being an NYC commuter line, because it is used as such. But there are about 20 long radial lines (with numerous branches) into London, and 12 here:
Hudson, Harlem, New Haven, north shore, main LIRR, south shore, North Jersey shore, NJT/NEC, Raritan, Dover (might count as 2), Bergen Main, and Pascack Valley.
That's a valid approach.
I posted that as a reasonable approach, but I was wrong.
Hoboken bound trains count as much as NYC bound trains, due to the PATH connection.
So add:
Gladstone branch
Montclair Boonton Line
Also, Metro-North's New Haven division has branches in itself.
So the number of "radials" into NY is more like 15, not 12 - and mileage is higher than in London's (although it is correct to state that London's commuter system is better developed, with more connections and stations inside of London. NYC's commuter rail network is poorly developed inside the city - or rather, it was allowed to deteriorate inside the city).
London also has numerous side lines as sizeable as Gladstone, New Canaan, Waterbury, Long Beach, etc. I didn't count them in London either. If you count side lines, NYC might have 20 and London could be closer to 40.
But the side lines are far shorter, and contribute relatively little to total mileage. So I still think London's 20 vs NY's 12 is the best rough comparison.
And the length of the major radials is comparabe too. 50-80 miles in each case. Yes, Port Jervis and Montauk are more, but they hardly have trains, and I'm sure some London commuters come from 100 miles out too.
"But the side lines are far shorter, and contribute relatively little to total mileage. So I still think London's 20 vs NY's 12 is the best rough comparison."
For some side lines, that'sd true. But the major ones still add up to 15.
So the real comparison is 20 vs. 15. I'm skeptical about the definition of a London radial in terms of length - becase you can encompass half of the UK that way.
Still, the more riders, the better. We in NY could learn from London in the use of commuter rail here.
"I'm skeptical about the definition of a London radial in terms of length - because you can encompass half of the UK that way."
The point is that that is indeed true - people actually do commute to London from half of England! What is *formally* recognised as the commuter network is: the whole of the old BR Southern Region (essentially everything south of London as far west as Weymouth); the whol of East Anglia; and northwards and westwards from London about 50-75 miles on different lines (though commuter trains extend all the way to Birmingham on both Silverlink and Chiltern Trains). Even beyond those limits, people do commute on what are officially defined as Intercity trains, and there are significant numbers of commuters from places 100 miles away (e.g. Leicester)
Fair enough.
Mind you, I'm entirely aware that this whole thread is nothing more than a contest in the loo.
But it is fun to engage in such, now and then...
(I'm entirely aware that this whole thread is nothing more than a contest in the loo.)
I didn't realize that was your approach. I personally actually was interested in a size comparison. My gut feel was that London had a bigger rail network by all measures, and I am interested to see my feel somewhat corroborated. It would still be interesting to see route miles and train counts for the London commuter network, but I guess no one has those numbers.
"I didn't realize that was your approach"
Refer to Old Tom's posting, and my reply.
Of course there are things to be learned from comparisons. I just wasn't taking this too seriously...
In addition, and of utmost importance to railfans, New York has the most complex subway system. There are close to a dozen places where trains headed TOWARD the central business district can fork to one of two separate routes.
Not all these forks are in revenue service right now, but they could be if conditions change and they are needed. They are also used for reroutings in case a train dies. And if you count express vs. local as two separate choices, that adds another dozen or so forks into the system.
By contrast, most other systems have virtually no inbound forks. Their only forks are in the outbound direction as lines branch off.
Inbound forks in London:
1. Ealing Broadway (Central/District) - this is usually locked
2. Camden Town (Northern) - used
3. Kennington (Northern) - used
4. Finsbury Park (Victoria (northern part) - Piccadilly (southern part) - not used
5. Queen's Park (Northern/Silverlink) - used
6. Baker Street (Jubilee (northern part) - Bakerloo (southern part)) - not used at present, but has been in the past
7. Watford North Junction (Met) - used by a few trains Early/Late in day
8. Watford East Junction (Met) - used by a few trains Early/Late in day
9. Rayner's Lane Junction (Met/Piccadilly) - used
10. Finchley Road (Met/Jubilee) - not used
11. Hammersmith (District/Piccadilly) - not used
12. Cromwell Rd Junction (District) - used
13. Aldgate East Junction (H&C/District) - used
14. Whitechapel Junction (East London Line) - used for non-revenue moves; in past used for revenue service
Is that enough? Point: New York is not alone.
Acton Town District /Picc is used. I have ridden over it.
Simon
Swindon UK
Well done at spotting the obvious mistake.
6 in use in London is more than I saw from looking at the map, I must admit. I still can't find Queen's Park on the Northern Line. Maybe I have an old map.
But NYC has considerably more complexity. In NYC we have the following 9 in general use:
149th IRT
59th IND
E 53rd IND
4th Ave trains approaching Dekalb have 3 routes when MB is fixed, 2 now
Brighton trains approaching Dekalb have 2 reasonable routes when MB is fixed, plus a 3rd unlikely to be used
Brooklyn IRT go to East side or west side
Culver trains go to crosstown or Rutgers
QB expresses go to 63rd or 53rd
QB local to 60th, 53rd, or crosstown
Past revenue services include:
IND trains straight up 6th Ave
NX through Coney Island
Canarsie/Broadway switching (both Canarsie to Broadway and Jamaica to 14th St)
Brighton to Montague
Williamsburgh Bridge to 6th Ave
And used for GOs:
Jay St IND
South Ferry connection
Other Coney Island machinations
And of course for truly non-revenue service there's Queensboro Plaza, and the connections to the 42nd St and Franklin shuttles.
Don't forget the Chrystie Cut between Broadway-Lafayette and Essex Street.
That's what I meant by WB to 6th Ave.
Whoops, my bad. Sorry about that.
QB locals can also use 63rd. (Expresses can use 60th or Crosstown, but potentially crossing paths with locals.)
And there are connections all over the place between local and express tracks.
But how do you get from Jamaica to 14th Street? I don't think there's ever been a connection there.
14th and sixth Ave. with the connection near Broadway-Lafayette.
??? That still doesn't explain Jamaica to 14th street (meaning the L line). The only possible spot is at Broadway Junction, and it's not possible in normal revenue service because you would need to to a reverse move. It's possibe to run from Canarsie to Broadway El, but not Jamaica to 14th street.
(But how do you get from Jamaica to 14th Street? I don't think there's ever been a connection there.)
My mistake. Faulty memory.
"6 in use in London is more than I saw from looking at the map, I must admit. I still can't find Queen's Park on the Northern Line."
Queeens Park is on the Bakerloo line.
I believe it was 275 route miles prior to the Jubilee Expansion; now its a little over 280 (the expansion was about 11 km, was it not?).
The Jubilee Line Extension is 15.89km long.
BUT: The New York market has the largest integrated mass transit system in the world if you count all its contributors:
The subway
PATH
AirTrain
The coming Red Hook streetcar service
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
You can play that game in London too:
London Underground
Docklands Light Railway
Croydon Tramlink
Various local rail services
The talk about being number 1 and stagnant is in part nonsense
I agree - it's a good laugh, but it doesn't mean a thing. Both London and New York are great places for rail transit, as ar Paris, Moscow, Tokyo etc
because while London did manage to finish the Jubilee extension (and it is gorgeous), the rest of the system is in bad shape.
I wouldn't say it was THAT bad - we don't have any stations looking like Chambers St BMT.
New York chose to invest close to $40 billion since 1982, mostly in rebuilding and rehabilitating its tracks and stations, and buying new trains.
London has new trains on the Central, Jubilee, Northern, and Waterloo & City lines, but we don't make that much of a hype about them ;-)
Adding lots of new lines while your existing infrastructure crumbles around you makes no sense
Agreed, but what London's doing is adding new lines, keeping the existing infrastructure better than it's been for a long time, and buying awful new trains which aren't even bolted together properly. Meanwhile, the old 1938 stock runs without a glitch on the Isle of Wight.
"I agree - it's a good laugh, but it doesn't mean a thing. Both London and New York are great places for rail transit, as ar Paris, Moscow, Tokyo etc"
Berlin is pretty good too, though it gets less publicity. An interesting example of two separate operators (The U-bahn run by the city and the S-bahn by the national rail company), who really do co-operate properly, with a completely unified ticketing system which also takes in transfers to buses and streetcars.
Of course there were some pretty strong political incentives twelve or so years ago that led to this being put together! (The U-bahn belonged to West Berlin and the S-bahn to East Berlin.....)
in the old days of two Berlins, my parents took a subway ride on a West Berlin line, and the elevated train went over the streets of East Berlin on part of its route.
There was an underground transfer (only) stop under East Berlin on the West subways. Of course there was no exit to or from the street of East Berlin.
This stuff was so strange.
>>> in the old days of two Berlins, my parents took a subway ride on a West Berlin line, and the elevated train went over the streets of East Berlin on part of its route. <<<
The West Berlin U-Bahn did not go over the streets of East Berlin. Only the East German S-Bahn did that. You could cross into East Berlin from West Berlin on the S-Bahn.
>>> There was an underground transfer (only) stop under East Berlin on the West subways. Of course there was no exit to or from the street of East Berlin. <<<
Not quite. The subway system pre-dated the division of Berlin, and the U-Bahn passed under East Berlin while going from one section of West Berlin to another. It passed through several existing stations in East Berlin, but did not stop there after the wall went up in 1961. Most of the stations were sealed and dark, but I remember passing through Stadtmitte station. It had (has) an island platform which was well lit, and had two border guards marching back and forth along the platform. Here is a route map from that time showing open stations as white dots and closed stations as black dots.
Tom
Not so sure about the commuter lines.
Simon
Swindon UK
By mileage and tracks, MTA is indesputably by far number 1, though BritRail may claim a higher # of stations. And then of course, you have the NJT commuter rail (although to be fair, perhaps one should only count NJT stations in Hudson and Bergen counties as truly part of the NYC market).
NYC Subway has far more stations than the Underground, but Underground has more route miles.
It all depends on your definition of commuter lines. If you were to take a radius of all miles then all routes into London would count. There are at least nine main terminus stations in London each serving multiple routes. As regards whether the Subway is larger than the Underground the facts are quite clear. The Underground has the larger route mileage but the Subway has by far the greater track mileage. It all depends on how things are measured.
I would be delighted to send a set of maps over if you were to email me a postal address.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks for the offer. I've been to London (got an uncle and aunt in Dollis Hill a few blocks from the Jubilee Line and cousins in other places). I love the Jubilee Line. especially the plexiglas-guarded stations that are about as suicide proof as you can get.
Your comparison is correct.
After reading the posts in this thread it is obvious that all of you need to get a measuring tape, go to some private location, whip ‘em all out and measure them. :-)
Tom
I don't have a personal stake as to whether NY is larger than London. I am interested to know their relative sizes however. And I did want to point out ways in which NYCT is considerably more complicated than the London Underground. That isn't in any way meant to demean London.
"After reading the posts in this thread it is obvious that all of you need to get a measuring tape, go to some private location, whip ‘em all out and measure them. :-)"
Well now, come on. Don't be like that. This IS New York, and we ARE a manly bunch on this here bbs, uh, I mean, almost real-time message board. It's an honor thing. I'll add this thought. I doubt any city "of similar size" has been fashioned along its transitways in such a linear, dense pattern. Mile after mile after mile of multistory housing and business structures. Most other cities transit lines do traverse high density areas. But they seem to also pass through lower density areas too. Where there are more open areas. Even in the northern-most reaches of the Bronx lines, even at the fringes of Brooklyn, the subway or el is passing through a distinctly urban, pedestrian scale streetscape. Think of the long long stretches in Brooklyn. I'm not stating that no other city utilizes the grid pattern in its makeup. For instance, I love how some of those city streets in Chicago wind up remaining true to form as far as adhering to the classic grid, even far outside the city proper. I just think that the roof-to-roof(with no gaps) style of building rows achieved their pinnacle of form in our town.
I mean, look at Flatbush Avenue! Or Broadway in Manhattan! Or the Grand Concourse!
With you as referee? I was hoping for someone of the opposite persuasion...
:0)
The way I see the NYC subway in being the largest is by its fleet, about 7500 cars. 242 miles of track may not be much to brag about, but it is a complex system to run. All those junctions we have and had are tops. And if the old els were still up and running today, we would have the largest rapid transit system in the world, not to mention a very impressive fleet size. Probably 9500 cars, plus new yards to store them.
As for our commuter rail mileage, we have to count the entire Tri-State Area for size. NY, NJ, and CT. We have Metro-North Railroad, Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit( excluding the Atlantic City Line) and Shoreline East. Current longest commuter line is the Port Jervis/Main Line at a whopping 95 Miles from Hoboken NJ to Port Jervis NY. If not this line, one of these two might be the longest, starting from NY Penn Station: Ronkonkoma Line to Greenport or Montauk Line to Montauk on the LIRR.
No one has a larger commuter rail network than the New York Tri-State Area.
(No one has a larger commuter rail network than the New York Tri-State Area. )
How do you know? You and Ron are saying this, but I'd sure like to hear some numbers. London has a huge commuter rail network. People commute to London daily from all over southern England.
Check the maps. Put them together. And what do you have?
A lot of different colored lines!! 8)
But seriously, we do have a lot of mileage on our commuter trains. If I'm not mistaken, mileage is listed on Metro-North, NJT, and LIRR timetables. Not sure about SLE. Maybe today, the system may look small on maps, but think of the old days when we had service to Chatham NY on the Harlem Division. Poconos on the Erie-Lackawanna, not to mention the Pennsylvania, CNJ, New Haven, and New York & Long Branch. LIRR is still impressive too. As for NJT, the run to Hackettstown is done by two lines, Morristown Line and the Montclair-Boonton Line adds mileage. If including the abandoned portion east of Montclair on the Boonton Line, BAMM, more track mileage.
There's our proof right here.
IIRC, NYCT has over 5000 cars, not 7500.
I think the amount of rolling stock should be measured by linear feet and not the number of cars. NYCT has 51 and 60 foot cars, so naturally they will need more cars to match the capacity has systems with longer, but fewer cars. The IRT uses ten car trains (11 on the 7), but that is only 510 feet worth of train. With 75 foot cars, that is only 6 cars and some change. Using linear feet would level the playing field.
In terms of passengers, NYC's commuter system isn't the largest, they only carry around 250 million per year with all the services (from the APTA). Sao Paulo's carries over 350 million. Any other commuter rail systems have a higher number?
"Any other commuter rail systems have a higher number? "
Paris, perhaps? It is very heavily used.
Do not forget Tokyo. It is the largest metropolitan area in the world and has more commuter train lines than NYC.
Which city has more mileage of pure elevated tracks, Chicago or New York City?
Probably New York.
I would say Tokyo has the largest concentration of urban/suburban rail transit in the world. It has 4 separate subway lines (Teito Rapid Transit, Tokyo Waterfront Rapid transit, TOEI, and Saitama Railroad). There is 2 tram lines, monorail to Haneda Airport, and several private railways in addition to Japan Railway that provide commuter service. There are also double decker Bullet train commuter service to suburbs 67 miles away! There is an excellent webpage with photos and timetables of most of the Tokyo commuter trains (and photos of subways, tram, and monorails). If interested, e-mail me and I can send you a link.
Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe metropolitan area also has an impressive array of commuter train/subway concentration. Each of these cities have subways and interurban railways.
Since the subway opened in 1904, the famous straphanger straps have been synomonous with New York subway cars. Straphangers were not only obvious for standees, but they were easy to grab onto, easy to grip, within reach of all but the shortest passengers. But, starting with the R44s and R46 cars in the 70s, the straps were now passe, replaced with overhead stanchions. The IRT R62s in the early 80s continued this trend. Then when whole classes of cars were overhauled in the late 80s, (such as the Brightliners and R40s) the straps were removed, replaced by the overhead stanchions. As a daily subway rider who is 5 foot 6, I can tell you these overhead bars are not comfortable to hold onto for any length of time. With straps bieng "pivoted", a person could move along with the motion of the train, while standing standing up; with the stanchions, you feel your arm bieng pulled taut, especially when the train goes through curves. There is no "give" when holding onto a stanchion. Also, in cars like the R30s,38s,and R40s (and the IRT cars) there were twin rows of straphangers, assuring most standing passangers a comfortable hand-hold. Even new cars built without straphangers, (R12s/14s/15s), eventually had straphangers (albiet very small ones) installed in later years. I cannot fathom why the MTA removed all the straphangers from the cars during thier overhauls.....the only reason I could think of is that at some future date, they figured they could make a hefty bundle by selling the straps to the buffs(!!)
corection: in my last post I said that straps were removed from the R30s....That was in error, as the removal of straps started with the Brightliners, then R40s......R30s carried thier straphangers right to the end.
>>> R30s carried thier straphangers right to the end. <<<
Actually the last car in service with straps was the Q type cars.
Tom
Tom, I happened to have ridden on the Myrtle on its last day. (I don't think I was on BigEdIRTman's train as I wasn't on the very last train.) A number of people were trying to remove those straps as souvenirs. I didn't bother, I just took this seat cushion, which I actually carried home on the "J" to Jamaica, the LIRR to Hempstead, and the bus to East Meadow. Even though it was rush hour I did have a seat the whole way home, and it was a "one seat ride"!!!
I've always hated straphangers and I will be happy when the last one leaves the system. The side-to-side motion is very annoying, especially on curves. Also annoying is when all nearby straphangers are taken and you have to share. This problem never occurs with bars.
Are you kidding me? Strap Hanging was fun, when I was small and light. I would swing and shout like Tarzan. Or better yet, like George Of The Jungle. "Watch out for that Ad".
:)
I can almost hear hear George sounding like Tarzan then crunching into the tree!
Fortunatley, I had my friend who rescued me. "An Ape named Ape".
One way that I knew that I was almost grown up was when I was tall enough to reach the (metal) straps. Those along with the phasing out of front windows for all to view are sad losses which future generations will only experience on museum cars. I will miss the straps.
As someone of approximately your height, I agree entirely.
The R-62's aren't terrible. The horizontal poles are directly above the floor and the ceiling mounts, especially the ones by the doors, are useful in maintaining longitudinal (front-back) balance.
On the R-142's, the horizontal poles are above the seats, making them quite a stretch. The ceiling mounts aren't as useful. By the doors there's a gentle curve, which may or may not have aesthetic quality but it a perfectly useless place to hold on.
And on the B Division, the R-38's have wonderful loop-downs by the doors, but the R-32 railings are uncomfortably high.
One nit: you and I are straphangers. What we hang onto are straps. (At least when we catch Redbirds.)
I had a weird dream the other night, but this one wasn't so pleasant.
It involved Shoreline and - get this - BMT standard 2775! The good folks at Shoreline actually got it running and had it out on the mainline. Now for the weird part: the line ended not in front of Sprague Building, but at a pond. Now here comes 2775, rumbling along, bull and pinion gears groaning. I wasn't on it, but was watching it as it approached this pond. It appeared to be slowing down, and I expected to hear the trademark "tchhhhhhhhhh" sound as it came to a stop, but instead 2775 kept right on going and plunged into the pond! The water wasn't all that deep, and no one was seriously injured, but man oh man, talk about nightmares!
Some nightmare. I had dreams where I was in the motormans' cab and there were no controls. Yes, at the front of the train. Everything there except controller and break handle.
Well, you could count the dream I once had in which I was on a train of R-10s going downhill outdoors at about 100 mph as a nightmare.:)
I would call that a "dream come true" to see an R10 running 100 mph. However, my nightmare had come true.
" FULL WIDTH CABS"!!!
AARRRRRGGHHHH
Yeah, that IS a nightmare.:)
wayne
FULL WIDTH CABS????? REDBIRDS BIENG USED AS OFFSHORE REEFS?? GOOD GOD, WHERE WILL IT END???..........'scuse me, I gotta take my Paxil......
It will end like this:
R44, R46, and R68(a) converted into motor homes at the HeeHaw Trailer Park in Gotacoldbrewski, Florida.
YIKES
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!
And the inhabitants will be singing:
Where, where, are you tonight, etc.
Ya know? There is a continuing foreboding message to all of these disaster dreams of yours with NYCTA equipment. Something tells me that we won't be handing you handles if'n ya don't get counseling, dewd. You seem like a bad layup waiting to happen. :)
Moo.
Trust me, I'm not at the controls in any of these dreams. Not all of them are disasters. There was one dream I had in which a train of R-1/9s pulled into 59th St. with no headlights (yippee!) and a drop sash window on the storm door. How do you like them apples?
I also had a dream once in which Chicago's 4000-series cars were running on the D line in the Bronx!
The WORST subway nightmare I ever had was of me bieng strapped into an electric chair and being forced to watch Lo-vs and R1s bieng fed into flaming open-hearth furnances while thier whistles screamed in agony....and, if you knew me, THAT would really be a NIGHTMARE......"Nightmare on Elm Street" would look like "Sesame Street" by comparison!!
Heh. But your MERE presence near the equipment suggests an almost Joe Bltsflk mentality (from "L'il Abner" - check for storm cloud overhead) that would cause me to get a dose of the willies from your dreams. There must be something fundamentally wrong with me - about the only subway "dreams" I have are routine operations in routine places on lines I ran on, nothing terribly interesting, then on to something else.
Maybe you should take the next conductor test, do the T/O thing and go for the cure. You'll wake up without any foam on your moustache one day. :)
I wasn't that crazy about the subway. Never had any desire to work for the TA.
Hah! That's nothing. I once had a dream where I was on a field trip at school (I was 9 when I had this dream) and we were on the N train, R40-slants, and all of a sudden the whole thing derailed and all the cars split up. Then they made US drive a bunch of split-up trains, and we jumped off the track and ended up on the road. Don't ask me how we were still going, but we had to figure out how to get the trains back on the tracks. We didn't bother-we just drove the trains along the road (?!?!) to where we had to go. The worst nightmare I ever had with trains was when I was sleeping on my couch, and went to get up and here comes an R40 L train barrelling through my living room. I almost got my foot run over.
On a lighter note, though, I once had a dream where me and a bunch of people were in some wierd station where there was the A, M, N, Q, R, W, and Z all trying to terminate on the same track, and the dispatcher was going nuts, so we left and walked through a door that was a time warp and we ended up on some abandoned platform on the 3rd Avenue El in the middle of its demolition. It was about sunset, and all the demolition crews had gone home, so we were free to explore the line, as far as we could walk on it. If only that could really happen!
How about this: I'm in an R-9 running down the middle of a street - with no track beneath it!!! Talk about a whole lot of shaking going on!
That's why they made us stop 1689 a good long way from the end of the line. I do believe 6688 made an escape attempt from the Branford trackage though and was wrestled to the ground JUST in time once. :)
Yup, that actually happened. 6688 got a good head of steam and was zooming along when someone realized they were running out of track and slammed on the brakes just in time.
Nice dream. Also had a dream where I am late for a trip and "Egads", I had no fare money, and I missed the train.
In my dream, I was in a subway station...
It was outdoors, cause we don't *have* a tunnel out here...
but it did have IND tiles on the walls...
A train of shiny, well kept R42s came in...
except for the last car which was dirty and full of scratchetti
and the Doors opened and a whole bunch of black people came out...
(And that *is* unusual in NORTH DAKOTA)
and they were all squinting in the bright sun
as they came out of the tunnel
(which you will recall wasn't there anyway)
Anyway... they came up this tiled ramp, squinting,
and seemed somewhat lost,
which would not be such an difficult thing
seeing that no R42 has ever stopped in North Dakota before...
And they walked up the block to our monastery,
but I preceived that it was a tree lined street
with cobble stones and green gas lamps
really more picturesque than any street that we might have here in this state.
And after that I woke up.
: ) Elias
i love your maps, and your ideas, but that was really strange!
Now that's really weird.
Wierd? Man, that has got to be the understatement of the year! I didn't sleep a wink the rest of the night!!
Your subway ideas are fantastic, but that dream just changed my opinion of you personally! :)
How about an slant R40 breaking through your wall? I had one of those dreams when I was 7 (back when the slants were gray and dirty and covered in grafitti)? I was afraid to ride the slants for a long time after that dream. In fact, I didn't ride another slant until my freshman year of high school.
Or boarding an R68, but boarding it from a low platform in the middle of an enclosed shopping mall and climbing three steps to get to the floor of the train, like on a bus or LRV? And it's not even in New York, it's in Philadelphia. I had that kind of dream a long while back. The R68/LRV left the mall station, went into the tunnel, made a conventional subway stop, went through more tunnel, then came out and rose high above the Philly sports complex, then crossed the Delaware river into a town on the Jersey side of the river. Pretty weird stuff, no?
Pretty wierd indeed. I had another dream where the Canarsie Line was four tracks (I wish!) and I fell into the tracks, and every time I rolled over I almost got run over by an R40 train on the adjacent track.
How about this one; I'm riding a R-40 slant Brighton Express train, and it's doing its usual speedy express run then it took off, I mean REALLY took off. It was flying through the air like a superhero. It flew over Brighton Beach, flew over the Atlantic and just kept on going and going...
Mine could be the grand daddy of them all. Of course in this dream only a Triplex will do and here I am motoring a "D" type down 4th Avenue and picking up speed on my Sea Beach Express when I chance upon, can I believe it, Hillary Clinton standing on the tracks no more than 100 feet away. I bear down on her with all the gusto that I can manage from my favorite car when all of sudden near impact I awake. The nightmare is the I awake and don't finish the job.
Funny, I had the same nightmare...except I was piloting a R-1 through Ditmas Ave. at at least 100, and Mel Gibson,Peter Jennings, and Newt Gingrich are tied "Perils of Pauline"-style to the track....the WORST part of that dream was I ran over them and they were still alive!
Did your alarm clock go off? Was Linda startled?
I've had dreams of BMT standards on the Canarsie. Nothing unsual there; I rode on them on that line. The weird part was most of the line was outdoors at ground level.
Speaking of ground level, I had a classic dream in which the 7 ran at ground level past Shea Stadium, and there were trains of both Redbirds with pantographs (no third rail, but overhead catenary) AND Big Orange South Shore cars! One of them blasted its horn a few times as it went by.
And at the last minute, the D type is crushed like a Pepsi can by our Senator. There's a war on ... can we LEAVE the politics out of it?
I never mentioned politics Selkirk. It was a Triplex, I was driving and I saw Hillary, and I tried to run her down. Where's the politics there? It is a subway dream that she just happens to be in. What am I supposed to do? Lie?
Nevermind.
Listen me friend, if you are so wrapped up in Hillary why don't you wait until she finally divorces that boob she's married to and then cast your bid to try and win her over. OOOOOOPPPPPPPSSSSSSS, your're married, very happily I believe. However as her boob spouse would tell you: "Hey Selkirk, no problem. It works for me."
Hillary's doing a WONDERFUL job. In fact, her popularity is higher than your boy there. Because of the "war" I've chosen to stay OUT of politics, and will continue to do so. I'm sure I'm not alone in recommending that you stifle it for a while as well. Let's support our boys and girls who are in harm's way and draw together as AMERICANS during this conflict and close ranks. For ONCE. :(
Keep the snide comments about our Senator to yourself, please.
What does this have to do with subways?
Nothing. 's what happens sometimes in sub-thread tangents. Once there was a thread, Unsavoury Subway Stations that started about some guy that wanted to know if any stations should be avoided, because he was going to make a trip, but it degenerated into a nasty dispute about bad neighborhoods and use of the word "projects".
Good ol' 2775, as pictured in Brighton-Franklin Express service, southbound, just north of the Malbone St. S-curve, kids looking out the railfan window, in Greller's book.
Well my subway nightmere would probably involve them walling off the front part of all the trains, even the redbirds, with not a railfan window accesible, due to "operation restrict freedom".
Don't laugh. I actually had a dream once in which a slant R-40 had been modified so that the A end had a full-width cab. That was about as bad as seeing a borgaschmord train such as the ones I remember in 1969-70.
Believe it or not, I had another museum-related dream the other night. Only this time, it was manna from heaven: Shoreline acquired three more R-1/9s to go along with 1689. One of them was R-1 289. Man oh man, I was leaping handsprings. Now I could play conductor for real!! Of course, a four-car train there might do 5 mph at best with all the juice it would gobble...
Is it true that those triggers won't move at all unless the cab drum switch is set to "on"? I saw firsthand that 6688's levers won't move unless the door key is inserted and turned.
wayne
1) Times Square on Broadway Line is a three-track terminal with bumpers at the end. A (Q) of R68's comes in at 40MPH, crashes and vanishes. I then go through a wierd complex with (7) trains running as the Fulton Street Local (since when is that even in Manhattan?) and ended up back on the Q, running grade level smack dab in the middle of the street, complete with railroad crossings-raised gates + flashing lights. Somehow it takes me to my house (which at the time was @ Halsey St on the L) and as I'm getting off I almost got run over by a fast Q.
2) I'm coming home from school on the L, and we're approaching Wilson (Manhattan-bound train, keep in mind) and suddenly we're outside. The second (Canarsie) track appears behind and we're running English (left) through a huge open field in the middle of Brooklyn! Next thing I know I'm standing on the tracks, walking, with a train of Low-V's goes by on one track (right side now) and a train of BMT standards pulled by a steam engine on the other track. I somehow magically end up back on the L train, which is now 10 R-40's long (was 8 R-42's) and we keep going around an endless 180* turn uphill constantly picking up speed. We reach the top and I tumble out of the train, and when I look up I see a yard at Wilson Avenue, home to about half-a-dozen trains.
3) I'm railfanning on the J, getting off to watch operations at Myrtle, when what should happen but an (M) train crashing when it runs out of track trying to go down the old El trackage? The structure begins to collapse, and all train service is shut down in the area. Suddenly I end up at the Williamsburg Bridge, which is flooding, and a train is trying to get off, meanwhile the land is dry (?????).
4) One of my favorites, one I keep having, that Coney Island yard is right down the street from my (old) house, where the supermarket is supposed to be. I keep walking down there to watch switching and coupling operations. I'm walking around and next thing I know I'm on some kind of LIRR/NJT commuter train going by this yard. I end up stuck out in the middle of nowhere with no money to get back home.
5) I'm in the future, and I'm somewhere in Philly, I think 30th Street station, and the "train" was a bunch of funny-shaped bubble cars with holographic numbers on them, each one was a different route each car took after reaching a certain point. And I think the track was hanging off the side of a building. Long story short, I got lost...
There are about a million more, but I can't recall them at the moment. Maybe I should write a book about them, "Subway Nightmares" by Dante D. Angerville. Hmmm......
So the symbol for the (X) was not an "X", but instead a made-up symbol that is a "cross between the (R) and the (V)"? I'm confused.
I reorganized my photos from Subtalk Day last October and Denver's light rail into separate photo albums. I also added a few photos from Subtalk Day that weren't there before. More light rail pics will be added soon as I sift through my collection.
Enjoy!
From what I understand, if the three dots are horizontal, you must stop. If they are vertical, you're cleared. What is the policy if they are diagonal, and does it matter which way they are pointed? Is this how an interlocking route is decided? And is this the same policy for railroads such as Amtrak and MNRR?
Assuming SIRT has the same signals as the LIRR, The 3 diagonal dots mean slow down.
unless recently changed, SIRailway (MTA's name for SIRapidTransit) is still using Baltimore and Ohio style Color Position Light Signals similar to but bot identiucal to PRR/LIRR Position Light Signals.
PRR style is ALL amber/clear la,ps with all aspects using the center lamp, the outer two changing around the 'circle'. B&O style is two colored lamps dor each aspect at the edges of the circle only.
Examples three vertical on PRR = two green on B&O, three horizontal PRR= two Red horizontal on B&O. Avery full discussion from a model railroader perspective appeared in several installments in MAINLINE MODELER in 2002.
WRONG! The B&O signals display aspect by both colour and position. The PRR signals have a 1 to 1 mapping between themselves and a colour lamp on a colour light system. You can replace / w/ a yellow lamp, -- with a red lamp, \ with a lunar lamp and | with a green lamp for both heads and retain all the relevent signaling information.
In the B&O system you cannot do this. The main head can display 4 aspects using a colour-position system (-- red, | green, / yellow and \ lunar), however these 4 colour-positions are then modified by 6 positional marker lights, three above the main round head and three below. So | is not Clear, but Slow Approach Slow. To get a clear you need to have a lunar marker light lit directly above the green |. -- is stop, but -- with the marker light above is Stop and Proceed. | with a marker light below is Medium Clear, etc, etc.
As you can see, the B&O system uses PURE arbitrary position to convey signal indication.
White light and number board displayed with three red horizonital lights is a stop and proceed rule. Proceeding at restricted speed able to stop half distance of sight.
You must announce that you are passing signal #### under the rule.
When I lived on SI and listened to the SIR I think the rule was 509A or something in their rule book.
No white light it was a stop and stay. Missing number board is also a stop and stay.
Your description seems to be referring to the LIRR/PRR position light system. I'll give the answer for that system as I do not want to get into the details of the B&O CPL system. | is CLEAR, which is Proceed at NORMAL speed. -- is stop (or Stop and Proceed w/ a marker light/number plate). / is APPROACH, which means to approach next signal prepared to stop not exceeding medium speed (30 mph). Home signals that govern diverging routes have multiple heads to display things as -- over | or MEDIUM CLEAR which is proceed through all turnouts at MEDIUM SPEED then CLEAR.
You can find a list of all Northeast signal rules at http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/norac/index.html
On a certain day, not too long ago, I and a few others got to ride a Manhattan bound R-143 L train the entire length of the line with the cab door open. The specific details are being withheld to protect the innocent. It was a great ride.
---BM
"The specific details are being withheld to protect the innocent."
So why post it? Like to brag?
You are so cool, dude!
-Mark
For the record, 2 TSS's from the L line read this board regularly. So does a Supt from that district. You just don't it.
For the record, 2 TSS's from the L line read this board regularly. So does a Supt from that district.
Awesome! We have SubTalkers in management! If you are reading this, Hi! I really like the (L) line and you have some really great employees working for you. Keep up the good work! I look forward to riding the new piece of track up there by Broadway Junction. I hope the changeover goes smoothly. Have a nice day.
---BM
You just don't get it..... Let me see you taking pics... I will call it it faster then you could blink...
You are a very valuable asset to the railfan community. Thank you for your kind post, and I'm sure everyone will appreciate what a wonderful MTA employee you are. Better yet, maybe I should file a complaint against you with your logic eh? Something about being rude to a passenger? Mmm, management hates that kind of employee.
And I'm sure those TSS's will be very pleased to learn that one of their T/O's does a very nice job. Very smooth braking (a challenge on the R-143's, it seems), good speed but not overly aggressive, etc. -- and friendly, to boot.
Any TSS who takes disciplinary action against this T/O because he was friendly is also taking disciplinary action against a good T/O. I hope most TSS's recognize that taking disciplinary action against good T/O's is not in their best interest.
Nor is taking disciplinary action against friendly T/O's, for that matter.
No one is doing a train operator favors by stating the cab door was opened for the trip. That is cause for discipline. Just ask the train operator who let a certain subtalker into his cab to film an IRT line. If we want to keep T/Os friendly, we don't rat them out. Thank goodness the date and intervals weren't posted.
And that's why Brian left out all possible identifying material (except that it was an R-143, but that doesn't mean much on the L).
Nobody stepped into the cab. I was standing closest and I made sure of that. We just watched.
And, again, I maintain that anyone who takes disciplinary action against such a T/O is doing his own line a disservice.
Its not particularly you that's the problem here. The reason the rule is in place is because the TA feels that an open cab means that someone can run in and distract the T/O or C/R while operating. I had my cab open one day on the F and was talking to my father, left it open when doing my thing at each stop. The TSS who was half-decent about it stated that (and truthfully) that when something happens suddenly people have the tendency to turn towards the occurance. So say I close down, I'm observing, someone sticks their head in and yells "HEY YOU!" out of instinct I turn to that person. I could lose my head on a homeball or someone do something stupid and fall under in that short time.
Long winded I know, but that's why the rule is in place, because of so called "distractions".
There are lots of TSS's and Supt's reading this board every day.
Correct.... And these idiots just run their mouths and think the crews like us don't hear it. I wonder how many bulletins are out because of big mouthed railfans.
-Mark
Probably a lot less than are put out because of stupid crews.
Right you are. If the crews followed the rules as they are supposed to, we wouldn't have to worry about things like this getting back to management, and someone getting written up or a bulletin being distributed.
All those TA workers saying "Management is always out to get us" and "They keep coming out with these stupid rules" here's the reaosn why... its something we did ourselves.
Do they read this board because they are railfans or because they are mean and are out to get people in trouble?
MTA, like any political sausage factory, is ALWAYS concerned about image and public perception. They'd rather find out the bad news before it appears in a letter from a politico to the "wigs who shall not be troubled and appear in MY face." Bottom line, loose subtalkers get innocent people in trouble, even when they're trying to finger a bad actor here and there. Get the train's interval off by one minute when posting, and the wrong crew gets blamed for YOUR unhappy MTA experience.
When I was with the TA, the FIRST thing my instructors told me was to keep a little book and WRITE DOWN your interval, lead and tail car number, WHEN you left just in case that phone call in the middle of the night came "were you on 0705 Brighton D, lead car #1075?" and you could look, check and tell them "No, I fell back to 0713, lead car #689" ... management LOVED to nail you, and in all my later years in Civil Cervix, it's not changed a whit.
LAST thing you want to do is provide specifics unless you INTEND to get someone in serious poo. In my OWN situation (now knowing that Canarsie management has read my comments about running a 143) I can safely say that I never said a WORD about specifics until AFTER those who gave me the treat had *LEFT* the system, onto other railroads and other careers. KNOWING how the game is rigged, I'd NEVER say anything about FRIENDS. And I'm inclined to not rat out the stupid either. Just my way.
But YEAH, gotta be careful about WHAT you say here, and to WHOM. :(
I can safely say that I never said a WORD about specifics until AFTER those who gave me the treat had *LEFT* the system
I guess then I can now talk about operating a work train down the express track of the West End Line 30 YEARS AGO ;-) It was a treat at that !!!
Heh. Ran several R-10's under "supervision" on Saturday mornings back in the 1960's when I was a kid ... once upon a time, the Transit Authority (and its employees) ENCOURAGED future employees to foam. I'm sure each and every motorman and conductor will rot in hell for allowing this madness. :)
Then came the MTA ... HOPEFULLY they'll just get it all over and done with and install gun turrets in the cab. :-\
They told me the same thing in school car. Write down you Operating cars, Interval, T/O name and pass.
ALWAYS know where you are ... and where you WERE. :)
And yeah, when I moved up front, I had to have YOUR badge. And don't forget to have that RCI hand you a get out of jail free card when it lays down - bad order tags in triplicate.
Didn't you hear the cab door was stuck open and a car defect sheet was writte up?? yah right...
Yeah -- stuck on a railfan's foot.
Heh. Funny how if it was a TSS operating, such a sheet would magically appear. :)
We still practice it, well, some do. I encountered a lot of "why do you bother with that sh!t" and "I'm not going to watse my time doing that".
Wow ... THANKS for the "blast from the past" ... looks very much like mine did - back in the 70's, they still made and sold those BOUND (rather than spiral ring) miniature "composition books" that were just the right size to slip in your TA coat pocket ... actually kept my last one for a few months before throwing it away. But yeah, back when I worked the rails, you had to also write down the RCI's name and badge, what was found, clear times, where you went out and back into service ... each day ate at least a whole page ... yours seems so ... neat. Heh.
You got to see a simple page. I recorded only the information necessary for that day. If I had any problems I always noted any RCI, Police Officer, TSS or anyone I spoke to at Control Center and their pass number, as well as the other items you mention. But I didn't need a whole page every day. But I guess that's due part in fact that in your day you needed an RCI every trip, no? :)
Heh. Actually, the Arnines weren't all that bad *IF* you knew how to handle them. Sadly, a lot of the BMT guys just didn't like them and didn't know how to deal with them. Sure you had door problems that would delay you (write it down) and sometimes they'd spontaneously dump Iwrite it down) but largely they ran.
I *did* have one morning from hell with intermittent indication where she'd roll fine for 4-5 stops and the light over the gauge was not to be ... RCI would board, take it out of service and ride up a stop or two whereupon the light would reappear with the indication fairy smiling, stay on solid - we'd open up the empty train, take on some geese, go a few more stops and here we go again - discharge, take it out of service, go a few more stops, on solid. Got to the terminal about 45 minutes late on that run. But that was the exception more than the rule.
But yeah, delays due to door problems and no indication fairy on board did take a few pages on some days - most days it was leave, arrive and pretty much not much else. There were a few layup consists that you KNEW not to climb up on, call the dispatcher and ask "do you REALLY want me to move this dog onto the ladder?" and you'd get back "Oh yeah ... go to track 22 and grab that one." :)
There are some who I think are hidden railfans but for the most part its to monitor things.
When the last vintage IRT Redbird completes its final run, the era of straphanger's straps in subway cars, a NY subway feature since 1904, will come to an end. But, I wonder...with no more straps to hang onto, the term "Straphanger" to denote a subway rider will be out of date.....what will be the new term for "Straphanger"? Martyr? Pole -Hanger? Bar-hanger?
Until someone comes up with a term, they'll always be straphangers. TA tends to call them customers, however.
I sort of like "geese."
How about "lemmings"?
How about "Pole Opossums"?
GOOD ONE!! How about: "POLE VAULTERS"? Or "STRAP-LESS HANGERS"?
I had thought of pole vaulters. I don't know about Strap-less Hangars, but I know this one: "Seat-less Hangars".
:P
While we called many "geese" in our day because of the incessant squawking when we tried our damndest to get them where they wanted to get to despite the condition of the equipment and the system, I believe they're now called "customers." :)
Officially customers. Otherwise names we couldn't repeat in a "family" website like this! >g<
So what's wrong with "passengers"?:)
I'm still puzzled why "passengers" got replaced by "customers" - it has happened here in the UK too. The cynical here say that when we were "passengers", railway manmagement would have to actually take us somewhere we wanted to go, whereas now we're "customers" they can take our money and not take us anywhere (8-) !
Euphemisms and "correctness" surpass the basics. As long as there's a "Mission Statement" then there's "customer satisfaction," the Powerpoint presentation tells us so. :)
Perhaps some people somewhere in a company "accidently" spoke about passengers and left off the first letter!
Heh. Nope ... I say nothing ... I know nothing ... just grateful that I don't do that MTA stuff any longer. You'd THINK that "customers" and crews could be less adversarial but alas, seems nothing changes. At least back in MY day, there was good REASON for the public to despise the MTA. Now that things are SO much better, you'd think the war of attitudes might have subsided a bit.
How about "patrons?"
As in, supporters of a disappearing art?
Having fled from more "mission statements" than I care to count, I can imagine the scenes when the MTA made their Selkirkettes stop calling us "passengers" and start calling us "customers." "Come on, people, start thinking CUSTOMER SERVICE. ATTITUDE is EVERYTHING." Of course, what that means is, they didn't have to think "passenger service," so they could assume that budget, maintenance, planning, labor relations and capital investment were NOTHING.
So I really, really like the nickname PASSENGER. I would really like to be thought of as a PASSENGER.
Of course, you are free to consider yourself whatever you would like.
I totally agree. Being called a customer indicates that I have a choice. This is not so when it comes to riding on the subway.
Another thing that irritates me no end is the phrase "please be patient" don't tell me how I should feel.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sardines.
As "sardines" has LONG been used to describe passengers jammed into subway cars, I think that's ironic that so many Redbirds are bieng dumped into the ocean to be used as artificial reefs....where I'm sure they will be hauling many a finned passenger......"Hey, Mr. Limpet! Tell your buddy Charlie The Tuna that the next train for the New York Aquariam leaves from Reef #3 in two minutes...."
In mustard, tomato sauce, or olive oil?
Oh, I'm sorry, you're talking about passengers on your average IRT train....I thought you were talking about lunch.
How about....
'People who always complain about everything about the subway despite the system's obvious limitations and the MTA's countless efforts to fix them.'
I kinda like that... I just don't know how to throw in the fare hike into all of it. :)
[How about.... 'People who always complain about everything about the subway despite the system's obvious limitations and the MTA's countless efforts to fix them.']
Nah. There's already a Professional Complainers' Society; irocically, it does business as The Straphangers Campaign.
Hehe... LMAO!
Since we have to hold on to a bar (for dear life), how about "BarFlies"?
(I'll drink to that)
I have a few suggestions for a new nickname. Just pick the best one:
Salmon
Tuna
Herring
Flounder
Sole
Mahi-Mahi
Mahi-Ahi
Whitefish
Cod
Trout
Sturgeon
Marlin
Shark
Whale, no wait, that one's a mammal.
Silverfish
I know this list is long, but I don't see anything shellfish about that.
FLOUNDER!! PERFECT!! As most people "flounder" thier way through the crowded platforms.................
Uh....how about SUBWAY RIDER?
For many years a remnant of the Fulton Ave El served as the transfer point for the IND Fulton St Subway and the connection to the BMT Franklin Shuttle. The El remnant consisted of the eastbound platform structure and the station house and a passageway to the Franklin Shuttle terminal. I believe that the remaining supporting structure consisted of the 2 main pillars and the station structure pillars. I can not remember if that remaining structure also spanned Fulton street. I remember the structure being rickety looking and I think there were still paper transfers being issued in the mid 50's. You had to climb the old station stairway to get to the platform and traverse the old platform to the connection passageway and/or ramp to the shuttle platform
I did see any reference to the old station in the IND or BMT ststion by station descriptions. Maybe someone has an image of the structure remnant as described. I have posted this message because of the recent references to the Franklin shuttle line and the possible omission of this information from the Line descriptions.
When was the El station remnant transfer removed?
I have seen pictures of the Fulton ave El Franklin Ave (Jct) station.
However, I have never seen any pictures of the historic junction of the El and the Franklin Line.
(I think there were still paper transfers being issued in the mid 50's.)
I took the Franklin shuttle for fun in approximately 1969. I don't remember any details, but I do remember getting a paper transfer for the A train.
There was a paper transfer from the Shuttle to the subway. Actually it was a red ticket. There was a machine as you came out an exit, you'd tap the button and a button would come out good for an admittance. Trouble was people would hit it a few times for an extra ticket or 2 or 3. Sometimes people would come by and take as many tickets as possible and sell them outside for a quarter each.
If you're mentioning the old style transfer to the A and C with the old el structure, that was taken down when the Shuttle was rebuilt. As for when the Fulton el was still active, you got me on that one. I'm curious on how the station looked as well when the trains ran through to Park Row. But I believe the old Franklin Ave el station on the main line was demolished some time after the opening of the IND line. Can't recall the time, though.
Service terminated in 1940 on the el west of Rockaway Ave.
And there was a transfer at Rockaway Ave for the IND line.
Wasn't the Fulton el west of Rockaway Ave demolished because it was not upgraded to Dual Contracts as well as the Fulton subway being extended?
No, the much of the eastern end (east of Atlantic Ave to Grant wasn't upgraded. IINM, the western part of the Fulton El (much of which was replaced with the Fulton subway) was rebuilt, and looked much like the Broadway/Jamaica El looks.
Here's Rockaway Ave post 1940. The station looks like a twin of any Broadway elevated station rebuilt for subway service as well, with the added attraction of a temporary center platform built over the middle express track. All stations from Atlantic Ave thru Nostrand Ave. (I can only think of 3: Reid, Troy and Rockaway) were built to heavy subway car standards in anticipation of connecting the line to the 4th Ave subway. The IND killed off that idea, and then the el itself:
Does anyone know if there was a ticket transfer from the El to the subway at Rockaway ave?
Paper transfer same as Fulton/Franklin at Fulton/Rockaway. >GG<
Quickie quiz. In Brooklyn, what other locations used paper transfers,
between El & Subway, also 2 locations that used paper transfers
between surface & subway?
8-) ~ Sparky
Likely I'm wrong.
I'd say Bridge/Jay on the Myrtle El with the IND at Jay St/Boro Hall.
and
Fresh Pond Road. Granted Queens. But I said I likely be wrong.
I remember getting a paper transfer at Fulton/Franklin around 1990 to go from the el to the IND, down that rickety great old stairway with the ornate railing.
Actually, it was the only time I ever rode the old shuttle before it closed....on this rainy day.....
It was a great renovation, but something was definitely lost when it was rebuilt (besides an line that was ready to totally crumble).
>>>"Quickie quiz. In Brooklyn, what other locations used paper transfers, between El & Subway."<<<
Douce Man, got this one right, between the Myrtle Avenue El &
Jay Street Boro Hall.
>>>"also 2 locations that used paper transfers between surface & subway?"<<<
One is an easy one, when Brooklyn Bridge Trolley service ceased in
1950, a paper transfer between all Surface Lines terminating near
the Brooklyn Bridge [Vanderbilt Avenue [B-69], Smith Street [B-75],
Seventh Avenue [B-67], Flushing Avenue [B-57] and Graham Avenue
[B-62] with the High Street IND Station with restrictions.
The second, more obscure was a transfer at Marcy Avenue on the
Broadway Brooklyn El for continuing surface transportation toward
the East River on Broadway. Prior to it's cutback to Williamsburg
Bridge Plaza, it was the Broadway Car Line, then later to the
Meeker-Marcy Bus [B-29 or B-24]. This transfer may have lasted till
the introduction of Metro Card Transfers. At one time, when heavy
industry and a brewery were in the area of Broadway towards Kent Avenue
a separate AM Shuttle Bus operated from Marcy Avenue. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
What about the B35 and B54 Buses?
-Stef
>>>"What about the B35 and B54 Buses?"<<<
Yes, the B-54 Myrtle Avenue between Broadway & Jay Street.
Question, could you transfer from the 10/M at Broadway to the
bus and then receive a transfer for a continuing ride at Jay St?
The B-35 after the shutdown of the Culver Shuttle? From what
station or station[s]?
I don't score 100%, so I stand admonished. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The B35, 9th Ave on the W to Church Ave on the F, essentially a Culver Shuttle Replacement.
-Stef
You mean W like WestEnd at 9th Avenue. Whatever letter of the
alphabet was running at the time between 1975 and Metro Card Transfers. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-Douce Man Thanks for the reply also. Changed the subject of the
response, but posted twice.
>>>"What about the B35 and B54 Buses?"<<<
Yes, the B-54 Myrtle Avenue between Broadway & Jay Street.
Question, could you transfer from the 10/M at Broadway to the
bus and then receive a transfer for a continuing ride at Jay St?
The B-35 after the shutdown of the Culver Shuttle? From what
station or station[s]?
I don't score 100%, so I stand admonished. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
There was a Subway-Surface transfer from the B35 to the F train at Church Ave. IIRC there was another connection from the same B35 to the BMT at 9th Avenue. I don't think there was a transfer at Church Ave on the IRT.
Wasnt' the of the Fulton El part west of Rockaway Ave unrebuilt?
No. It WAS rebuilt, and did look just like the Broadway El, as mentioned. The Fulton el was rebuilt el structure from Atlantic Ave (current L platform) to at least Franklin Ave (and maybe even west of there, but I am not sure about the section between Lafayette and Grand).
It was only unrebuilt from Atlantic to Grant Ave. East of Grant still exists, and was heavy el and the A train runs on that today.
Here's another photo of Rockaway Ave. They built a platform over the express track here because it became a terminal as they were building the Fulton Subway, which ended at Rockaway Ave for a while.
The stations west of here looked just like it (minus the center platform over the express track). Notice how the side platforms could pass for Hewes Street or any of the other stations side platform stations on the J. (the middle platform is only wood because it was built as temporary, years later as the Fulton subway was being built, they knew Rockaway would only be a termial temporarily, and then abandoned).
Unfortunately, the Fulton El was a perfectly good rebuilt el, and it was a waste of money to build the Fulton subway. Of course, if you know the history of the IND, you know why they were trying to duplicate BMT lines. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Fulton Subway, but there are many other lines that should have taken priority over the Fulton Subway, like providing lines to areas where there were no lines. In hindsight, the rebuilt Fulton El could have been connected to the Cranberry Tube, and run heavy subway cars and all the money spent on the Fulton Subway could have been used elsewhere. If anything, the LIRR could have been converted to subway use, which runs in the same corridor a couple blocks away. In the Atlantic and Fulton corridors there were always two good lines, and the Fulton made three, necessitating the removal of the Fulton El. So many other areas have/had no subway or rail service.
If the IND and BMT weren't so competative, the "rebuilt" portion could have remained, connecting to an IND subway after leaving Nostrand Ave. May have saved a few $$$.
LOVE THAT PICTURE !!! Keep 'em coming.
Bill "Newkirk"
Looks like an excursion [fan trip*], for the BUs were not the normal
assignment on the Fulton Street El. They were the ugly duckling
'C' type rebuilds from BUs & Trailers.
*Fan Trip - In those years your wore a suit and fedora, your Sunday
Best, on an excursion. Usually held on a Sunday. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chris, I'm a little confused :-( But I did enjoy the photo!
"... Here's Rockaway Ave post 1940 ..."
My 1947 subway map shows the Fulton St El ending at Lefferts. Is that what you are talking about, i.e. it's obvious from the photo that it's the last station (marker light at End of Track).
That's the now gone Rockaway Ave station in Brooklyn, which was located above the current Rockaway Ave. station on the A line. From 1940 to 1956 it served as the terminal of all Fulton St. elevated service.
OK, I found it ... the other end of the Fulton El.
Thanks for the input.
They severed the Fulton El at Rockaway Ave when the IND was built under the street. The Fulton Subway made it from Manhattan to Rockaway Ave. WWII slowed the progression down, so Rockaway Ave (underground) became the terminal for the Fulton Subway, until the line was completed further east after the war.
Once the Fulton Subway came, the Fulton El west of Rockaway Ave became redundant, so it was abandoned and dismantled (sad as it was a perfectly good dual contract el). The eastern part of the Fulton el from Rockaway Ave to Lefferts remained open, and trains ran between those two stations. That's when they put the wooden platform on the express track of Rockaway Ave, while it served as the terminal for the "Franklin El Shuttle".
I am unclear as to whether they only used that wooden platform, while the real concrete side platforms just sat there. I would assume that's what they would have done.
The Jamaica line also had truncated terminals at similar dual contract side platform "local stations". Actually, I wonder why they didn't do that at Queens Blvd on the Jamaica line (I think 121st street only used one side platform). If I remember correctly, you never knew which platform the train would leave from at Queens Blvd. They could have just built a temporary platform in the middle. My guess would be that the reason was that it would have been too hard because there was no express track structure. Rockaway Blvd had an express track (Fulton was a very nicely rebuilt el).
BTW, does anyone remember the temporary wooden platfom Marcy Ave had built on the "express" track whil the WillyB was closed some years back and Marcy was a terminal?
They could have just built a temporary platform in the middle. My guess would be that the reason was that it would have been too hard because there was no express track structure.
Also, a wooden platform would have required a bridge across the tracks to access the side platform exits. Since trains needed to go thru Queens Blvd, this would have been impossible. Tracks east of Queens Blvd to Sutphin were not demolished and were used for off-hour layups (like the tracks which go east of Jamaica Center today).
You mean this one?
Hehe, yep, that's the one. A bit less primitive than the one at Rockaway Ave...
That one at Rockaway Ave lasted 16 years. Primative?
LOL, 16 years?
I think Wyckoff Ave you can beat that. I don't have a photo of them, but did you ever see the wooden crossovers over the "express" track at Wyckoff? They are at the extreme north and south ends of the station where the original 1914 mezzanine entrances were. You can see on the ground where the stairways were (the abandoned stairways lasted until about 10 years ago). Anyway, now THOSE crossovers are primitive, and they lasted from whenever they took the express track out and still exist today! Considering that they were put there when the entrances were still in use, I assume they had to be there since at least the 30's or 40's. When the Canarsie line was built in the 20's, they added the current stairways an current concrete crossover. I would assume, that they didn't have three mezzanines at Wyckoff open for long, so that wood is old! You can't see the wood in this photo I took around 1991 (BTW, Wyckoff had just become graffiti-free, but still had light bulbs), but the abandoned mezzanine is visable on the left. The wood was right in front. Well the wood lasted longer than the mezzanines!
Looks like a station to me. And wood. :)
Either David was speechless.
Or he forgot to write something.
I believe the latter. 8-)
Nice shots of Wyckoff Ave on the M
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I gave you three thousand words. That isn't enough?
Touche!
David, you have photos of everthing!
Anyway, there they are. In David's first and second photos, you can see on the concrete platform where they took the north (top photo) and south (middle photo) stairways out. In the top photo you can also see the original railing for the wood crossover. After a few years of trying to figure it out, I determined that those crossovers were put in while the express track was still there. The old railings were just placed along the sides of the wood crossover, while the rest of the platform along the "express" track had no railings. In the third photo you can see where the "old style" railing was screwed on the concrete. When they took out the ties, it created a safety hazzard, as it made the express trackway open to the street below, necessitating a railing along the whole middle. At that point , they turned the old railing shown in the first photo around (for whatever reason) and that's why the ends overlap the wood as opposed to what would have been the open area where the concrete overpass is now.
I wonder if the are going to "fill in" the "express track" in the renovation of the Myrtle-Wyckoff complex. I hate when history is lost, but it sure would improve the aesthetics and safety of the station.
The eastern part of the Fulton el from Rockaway Ave to Lefferts remained open, and trains ran between those two stations. That's when they put the wooden platform on the express track of Rockaway Ave, while it served as the terminal for the "Franklin El Shuttle".
Of course I meant "Fulton El Shuttle".
Thanks for the input !
Paper transfers stopped being issued and the shuttle remnant was removed when the shuttle was closed for renovation in July 1997.
Paper transfers were still used to transfer to Prospect Park (the shuttle bus was completely free) until the shuttle reopened in October 1998.
The remnant spanned Fulton Street and included stairs on both sides. I don't remember a station house in 1997. After 7/4/97, the tickets were electronic and issued by a bus farebox in the booth. One would then swipe at the other part of the station.
I remember upstairs there was an employee's toliet in a "house" over the n/w corner of the structure. IIRC it had to be condemmed because the floor was very weak.
Hold it a sec. Didn't the shuttle close in July 1998 and reopen in late 1999?
I was talking about a time in the 1980's.
Yes, that's right. I put the dates a year early.
I have seen pictures of the Fulton ave El Franklin Ave (Jct) station.
However, I have never seen any pictures of the historic junction of the El and the Franklin Line.
This is the only one I've ever seen, dated in 1939. The stairs to the shuttle platform, along with the overpass, are easy to see:
Is that the Green Hornet train here? Or the Blimp?
Yes, that's the GH in action.
While the paper transfer was used at Franklin/Fulton back in the 1980's, I did see the metal girders that the train would take turning off the Fulton El unto the Shuttle. It was a fairly tight turn.
What's the new station that they seem to be building between Newark Penn Station and NY Penn Station?
Secaucus Transfer.
Will allow people from Bergen County to transfer to Penn station trains.
Open weekends in Sept.
Open full time when PATH WTC reopens.
Thanks
Is that the station on (I think) the NJ Turnpike south of where it connects with (I think) 495 coming from the Lincoln Tunnel?
Yes.
How long before that station opens again?
The Project is delayed one year. When NJT (actually the construction workers give NJT the info. to distribute to the public) says "The Secaucus Transfer will open in 2002", they always manage to finish within the last quarter of the year. Funny how the first half doesn't work for an opening date. The transfer should open the last quarter of this year. If you happen to take NJT between Newark and NY, you can see what they have done so far on the center platform and the track configurations. Trains will speed through ALLIED except during construction hours, but you can get a glimpse of how grand the station will turn out to be. (Although it looks like it's in the middle of nowhere)
It also means no speedy service to New York anymore.
Thanks
Secaucus Transfer. Much has been written in railfan press sources as this project started last century.
as this project started last century.
That's not too special. Do you mean the century brfore last?
thanks
Since I've seen so few pics of the terminal when it was operating, I thought I'd attach this pic i found:
That is beautiful. WHere'd you get it? What year is it?
Found it here
Thanks for the link I've added a bookmark !
^^^"What year is it?"^^^
IMO, pre WWII?, post 1930, since there is a single ended 6000 besides
the 8000s in the picture. Only line at Williamsburgh Bridge to use the
6000 single enders was Nostrand Avenue. 8000s could have been on
Tompkins, Utica-Reid, Ralph~Rockaway or Bridge Local. Last years was only service to Delancy St. with the Bridge Local [now B-39] with 8000 series cars. Trolley service over bridge discontinued in 1948. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
That is a beauty. Do you happen to have a current pic, so we can have a before/after effect happening here?
Where is that fourth track splitting off from the Manhattan bound track going?
Maybe there was a connection from the BMT to the IND at that time.
The connection from Church Ave/IND to Ditmas Ave/BMT Culver did not open until 4 years later (1954), IIRC.
It did not open for customer service until 1954. Maybe there was a link that was built beforehand.
Interesting, as if there is a single track for then IND trains to permit storage of some trains at CI yard, since it was wholly BMT at that time, but after the merger and formation of Transit Authority
I don't know when that one track was put in between Church and Ditmas. My guess is it was planned all along to have the IND hook up with the BMT line and at the time that little connection was all that NYC could afford to build. NYC couldn't make that connection until it "recaptured" the BMT in 1940. With WWII rumbling in the distance, it was decided to build the line along 6th Ave first. If conditions allowed, the connection could be built later. 14 years later it was.
I guess that may have been the ONLY BMT/IND track connection at that time. The 11th Street ccut opened a year after the Culver-IND connector.
>>> My guess is it was planned all along to have the IND hook up with the BMT line <<<
So you thought the planners back then could foresee the future so much better than they can today?
Tom
are you sure this is a single track in 1950 going down the ramp to church av?
is there any chance this track could have gone down to the surface line frieght track? just a thought
john
John writes, "is there any chance this track could have gone down to the surface line frieght track? just a thought"
The South Brooklyn surface tracks separated from the streetcar tracks just north of the Ditmas Avenue station and went west under the Culver elevated structure. There was no freight service north on McDonald Avenue that I ever saw or heard of. I've never heard of the Culver elevated carrying freight (or any of the other old surface routes, once they were removed from the surface, except for coal deliveries on the Sea Beach).
From having looked at the ramp any number of times, I remember that track going directly down into the tunnel under McDonald Avenue; it's the same track that's used today for 'F' service to downtown Brooklyn. I don't recall if there were incandescent lights visible inside the entrance. Probably there were, but I don't consciously recall that and don't want to project what I think should have been visible.
Theoretically, I suppose there might have been some sort of ramp from the northbound streetcar track into the tunnel as it was being built, but I've never heard of that. The southbound trolley track was moved to go around the tunnel opening, as most people know.
Even if that track from Ditmas did go to the surface, there were no freight destinations north of there I've ever heard of; even the monument dealers for Green-Wood were on the streets on the west end of the cemetery. The streetcar tracks did not have any switches between Ditmas and Church which might have indicated a one-time freight connection, and there were no switches at McDonald and Church to allow a north-to-west connection to go over to the SB. At Thirteen Avenue, the Church Avenue streetcar tracks didn't have a connection to the SB tracks under the Culver Line, so far as I remember--the crossing was simply a 90 degree one.
I wish someone had a picture of a train using that ramp, even a work train delivering rail and ties. There must be one somewhere. It sometimes seems so strange that so little of what we'd really like to know was documented. There are all kinds of possible explanations, but that's sociology, not transit.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Thanks Ed, there is alot of information you mentioned that I did not know. that connection was made the year I was born so all I can remember was taking the D to the beach. The connection from the IND was complete out on to the culver el and I remember seeing the shuttle waiting for passengers at Ditmas. I hope as you mentioned that someone, some where has a picture from the platform facing the ramp to Church showing the single track going into IND territory. this is a very interesting picture
thanks again
john
IIRC it was planned all that the IND would "recapture" some of the more outlaying EL lines. The SAS was supposed to have "recaptured" the Pelham Bay Line in the Bronx.
Also the White Plains Road line. The Dyre Ave line would have been IND as well.
76th Street.
Of course!
Huh?
The proff is there for all to see.
actually that track entered 76th from the east side of the station
just kidding
jv
WOW ! Very nice and interesting shot. That track that's diverging off the Culver is going down to the Church Ave station. Though the connection won't take place for another four years, it might have been necessary to have it connected so motormen and other personnel could become familiar with the new route.
Also notice that the Culver Shuttle steelwork isn't there, that would appear four years later.
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't realize a physical connection existed so early. That's what I initially thought, but wanted to verify.
"I didn't realize a physical connection existed so early. That's what I initially thought, but wanted to verify."
In fact, the new steelwork for the IND subway connection was in place for many years without tracks on them. Just bare steelwork waiting to for the track connection. You have to go back when that IND subway was built and finished to see how long the connecting steelwork was up. I think WWII delayed the connection, though Im not sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
Building the Independent Subway has a photo dated 1941 in which the steelwork for the IND connection was already in place.
"Building the Independent Subway has a photo dated 1941 in which the steelwork for the IND connection was already in place."
AHA !! So WWII probably delayed the opening of the connection.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes it did.
WW II delayed completion of the connection, and then BMT IND equipment shortages delayed implementation in the 1946-54 period as well. Some IND R1/9 cars were on the 4th Ave. BMT for a while in the late 40s early 50s. With the arrival of the R16s in 1954 there were enough steel cars to allow the IND to extend the D train along the Culver route. Remember that the West End terminated for a while at Bay Parkway and then people going to 25th Ave, Bay 50th, and C.I. had to ride a shuttle wooden elevated train.
"Remember that the West End terminated for a while at Bay Parkway and then people going to 25th Ave, Bay 50th, and C.I. had to ride a shuttle wooden elevated train."
Didn't the Culver have the same set up, with termination at Kings Highway and shuttles to Coney Island ? I have a Steve Zabel B&W slide taken at West 8th St. upstairs showing a two car deck roof BMT standard train making the curve for West 8th St. That has to be a shuttle with only two cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
According to Brian Cudahy in Under the Sidewalks of New York, this was due to a shortage of metal rolling stock. Wooden cars were forbidden in tunnels, so the tunnel sections had to use proper subway cars, and to maintain sufficient headways these did not run to the ends of the lines. The remaining segments at the outer ends of the lines were above ground, and wooden cars were permitted there. The practice ended when sufficient metal cars became available.
You'd have thought the city wwould have bought more cars for the IND/BMT earlier and in greater numbers. Only the 400 R10's and 200 R16's were purchased between 1940-1960.
And the 10 R11's.
Prior to 1931, the Culver Line only ran El cars, via the 5th Ave. El.
From 1931, when the Culver-Nassau service began, rush hour subway service only went as far as Kings Highway. El service ran all the way to Coney Island. After the demise of the 5th Ave. El, wooden El cars ran as "locals" from 9th Ave. to Coney Island in rush hours, with the subway cars running express to Kings Highway.
Steel subway cars didn't run south of Kings Highway in rush hours until the IND "D" train took over the route in 1954.
-- Ed Sachs
Steel subway cars didn't run south of Kings Highway in rush hours until the IND "D" train took over the route in 1954.
This musta been high noon then:
You will note tha in this image, there are covered third rails.
The Ditmas image has uncovered third rails.
You will note tha in this image, there are covered third rails.
The Ditmas image has uncovered third rails.
>>> This musta been high noon then <<<
Close to it, from the position of the shadows.
Tom
Depends on when construction on the IND connection resumed. Maybe that track ran down to the IND.
I was told by folks in the BMT Trainmaster's office on Jay Street in the mid-1950s that that track was used to move the R-1s to the Fourth Avenue Local service in 1949 or 1950. I do not know if it had power on all the time or had to be turned on when needed. I never saw a train use the ramp.
It apparently wasn't used to deliver new cars to Coney Island yard in those days--I remember R-types being pulled down McDonald Avenue by a South Brooklyn steeplecabs. Those must have been R-12 and R-14 cars, for Flushing, since R-10s would have been delivered to 205th Street yard.
There's a home signal at the near end of the northbound platform that controlled the turnout. Somewhere, I have a photo I took of that signal and track looking down the ramp. It was around 1953 and I had an old Kodak Brownie camera but unfortunately, I was too young to know that the film had to be advanced to avoid double exposure, so I have a Church Avenue PCC on the 16th Avenue loop (downstairs from Ditmas station) on the same picture but the streetcar covers the signal number. I don't know if there's technology that could lift one image from the photo and leave the underlying one intact.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I was given a picture taken from the northbound station platform showing the ramp. I am told this was the first connection out of the IND territory. The switch was a hand throw and the signal leaving the station was an automatic signal before the two lines were fully joined.
Is that Ditmas? I thought Ditmas had 3 tracks with 2 island platforms with the local tracks running on the outside and the single express on the inside?
That was the configuration post 1954. Prior to the IND connection, Ditmas was a typical Culver local station, no different from Ave. I.
Also to add, from 1954-1975, Ditmas was in the following configuration (from east to west):
PLATFORM
LOCAL TRACK
EXPRESS TRACK
LOCAL TRACK
PLATFORM
CULVER SHUTTLE TRACK
The Culver Shuttle (the original Culver trackage)was dismantled in the mid '80s, with Ditmas returning to its pre-1954 configuration.
Actually, the Ditmas Ave station kept that configuration until about 8 years ago, when the windscreen was finally replaced. Well after the Culver shuttle was dismantled, the track for it at Ditmas rermained.
Spent the afteroon at Maple Lanes in Borough Park, for my daughter's 9th birthday party. Up on the walls, amidst the other memorabilia, they had 1950s advertizements by the New York and New Haven railroad.
One touted a "baseball special" on the New Haven line that stopped at track seven in the Mott Haven Yard, presumably at a temporary passenger facility. Presumably passengers walked or took the bus to Yankee Stadium.
Another touted a "baseball weekend" package featuring a train to 125th Street, a one block walk over the Lex and subway ride to the Stadium (or a cab), and a stay at the Concourse Plaza hotel on the Concourse and 161st Street.
Perhaps Peter Rosa could answer these questions. How many of today's Fairfield County residents would:
1) Get off a train in a rail yard in the Bronx and walk several blocks?
2) Get off a train in East Harlem, walk a block, then go down and get on a subway?
3) Stay at a hotel in the Bronx.
Those were the days. By the way, does anyone know what happened to the hotel? And can MetroNorth trains still terminate in the yard?
If I'm not mistaken, Mott Haven yard is under the Concourse Village complex. I don't think it's usable anymore. As for questions 1,2,and 3, no one. Majority drive to the "House that Ruth Built".
As for the hotel, I think the Bronx Courthouses occupy that area now.
if i remember correct the concourse plaza hotel was a nice place to stay in fifty and early sixtys. if fact the whole concourse was the one the better area in the city
The hotel is still there, intact, alive, and well. Except the building is no longer a hotel, but a senior citizen residence. In its salad days, The Concourse Plaza was not only a place for transients to stay. Many of the younger Yankee players stayed there during the baseball season in lieu of renting an apartment in New York. The Concourse Plaza was also a favored place for weddings and bar mitzvahs. In 1969 my wife, a Bronx native (then my fiance), and I attended her girlfriend's wedding there. Her friend is still married to the same guy; my wife and I were married in 1970 (not in the Bronx, though) and are still going strong.
BTW, we still go to Yankee games and still take the D or the 4 to the ball park!
Picture of bus in front of Concourse Plaza Hotel in 1974.
Peace,
ANDEE
When the D Brighton was the BMT #1 instead of a damn IND train, it didn't venture into the Bronx. The IND D did that; the Brighton #1 BMT went to Ebbets Field where thousands of fans used to get off at Prospect Park Station and walk the two blocks to 55 Sullivan Place. They were great memories and I cherish them to this day. It does seem rather ironic that the Brighton might be going to hated Yankee Stadium again. That is hard to take.
Hey Fred, did you run all the way to Ebbets Field from Prospect Park, or did you just make a beeline up the stairs from the platform?
Back in the 1950s, if not later, there were 'S' expresses that went from 34th Street-6th Avenue to Yankee Stadium station and return.
Haven't there been Shea Stadium specials on the Flushing line from time to time?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Hey Ed, I haven't lived in New York since 1954 so I am not up to date on Mets specials. If there are, I would hope some of my Subtalk buddies out there would inform me of it since I am a rabid Mets fan and will not miss them this time when I come to New York. I did last August but it couldn't be helped. No excuses this time.
"It does seem rather ironic that the Brighton might be going to hated Yankee Stadium again. That is hard to take."
I just LLLLOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVEEEEEEE da Bronx and I LLLLLLOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE the House That Ruth Built. At least the home team plays decent baseball, unlike those nitwits out in the boondocks in Queens, violating precious park space at the North end of Flushing Meadow Park.
I bet you loved it last October when the Anaheim Angels just ripped the shit out of your beloved heroes. Though I am a Red Sox fan in the American League, I attended the fourth and final game of the Angels-Yankees series and rooted myself hoarse for my wife's favorite team. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did, but probably as little as Jason Giambi who I was all over like a cheap suit all day asking him for a loan. Since I was only four rows back he heard every word I said and looked over a few times. I made sure he knew it was me. Boy that was a hoot. If you remember that series Kool-D, then EAT YOUR HEART OUT.
May I remind you of the 2000 World Series, and how much my "beloved heroes" made mince meat on your My Entire Team Sucks on 4 out of 5 games. Now I can't wait for June or July when we kick the shit out of you for 3 games.
So tell me Fred, which baseball team has the most World Series rings?
Your living in the past Kool-D. Sooner or later the Yankees are going to have trouble buying championships. It didn't work the last two years and it won't work this year. If one of the other Red Sox pitchers come through you guys are toast.
Speak you for team, do you think the Mets will become the cellar-dwellers to Kings of the Hill overnight? Steingrabber will buy Manhattan off of Mayor Bloomberg for 24 beads if he has to. At least one team has a winning percantage and another team some where in Not England is easily reaching it's not too distant goal of 100 YEARS IN 2018 WITHOUT A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.
THE CURSE OF THE BAMBINO LIVES, LONG LIVE THE CURSE!!!! ALL HAIL TO THE SULTAN OF SWAT!!!
Hey Kool-D, you might like this. On August 16, 1973, the 25th Anniversary of Babe Ruth's death, my Senior Babe Ruth All Star Team completed a perfect 32-0 season by winning the World Series in Monroe, North Carolina. I even gave a victory speech honoring the Babe in front of Claire Ruth, his widow. How about that?
And despite my dislike for the Yankees I believe without a doubt that Babe Ruth was the greatest all around ballplayer in history. Now don't get apoplexy reading this.
My vote for greatest all-around player goes to Willie Mays.:)
I have him tied for second with Henry Aaron.
"Sooner or later the Yankees are going to have trouble buying championships. It didn't work the last two years and it won't work this year."
If anything, last year told us that nobody can buy championships. All the big-budget teams were eliminated early, or didn't even make the playoffs to begin with. Remind me again, who was that NL East team last year whos payroll was $105 million, but they finished in last place?
It all comes down to team chemistry, and I applaud the Angles for bringing it together last year. But if you look at the years the Yankees won it or came close to winning in '01,it is obvious that a certain chemistry was there. The newer Yankees team members still need to develop that.
"If one of the other Red Sox pitchers come through you guys are toast."
It will be interesting to see if the sox can throw teams off-balance by starting their knuckelballer 2nd, and also to see how Casey Fossum develops as a 4th starter. The Sox have always been capable of putting a Championship team together, but for whatever reason they haven't done it lately :p
For the sake of keeping this thread on-topic, I'm not hoping for a subway world series in '03. Lets save it for next year, so both of NY's teams are playing each other on the IRT's Centennial. -Nick
2004 Subway Series? That would be all time. A good idea if the Mets and Yankees cooperate.
"2004 Subway Series? That would be all time. A good idea if the Mets and Yankees cooperate."
I'm hoping there will be a way to motivate the teams about that a year from now. In 1998, the Yankees were motivated to win during the record-setting season by the pressure of fans "expecting" them to win; they didn't fall apart in the postseason like the 2001 Seattle Mariners. In other words, the Yankees have proven they can react well to pressure; and I beleive the Mets can do the same thing. It's just a matter of HOW we get the teams next year to realize how exciting an '04 subway series would be! -Nick
Yankees suck! Mets suck! Red Sox suck! GO BROOKLYN CYCLONES! :P
I like the Brooklyn Cyclones. I have a Cyclone T shirt.
Though I am a Red Sox fan in the American League
And as punishment, the Sea Beach line will continue to deteriorate to nothing. One of the TA execs must be a long distant relative of a Mr. George Herman Ruth. :)
NYCT intends (a long range goal indeed), to have all stations renovated at least once by 2019. Let's hope the last set of stations to be renovated in about 15 years will be from 8th ave to 86th st on the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn.
I plan to visit New York on two occasions this year. Once when the Mets are in town, the other when the Red Sox come in and play your rotten filthy rich Yankees. Maybe I'll see you guys there. As for the Sea Beach's renovation, you guys are getting very personal. I owe both of you something.
As a Fairfield County resident, I'd be more than happy to answer these questions:
1) Get off a train in a rail yard in the Bronx and walk several blocks?
Probably not, unless it was a really nice day and felt like doing this. With the subway nearby, there is no need for this anyways.
2) Get off a train in East Harlem, walk a block, then go down and get on a subway?
I do this sevral times a year during baseball season! In fact, when lots of people from my town are going to a big game (like vs. the Red Sox or Mets) an announcement is made at my station: "Those passengers wishing to go to Yankee Stadium, please get off at 125th Street and walk one block to the uptown #4 subway."
3) Stay at a hotel in the Bronx.
I have enough relatives and friends in nyc so overnight has never been an issue. If for some reason that wasn't the case and I needed to stay in a hotel, certainly I would look for a good deal....so going outside of Manhattan is a possibility.
-Nick
Whenever I go the Stadium, I get off at 125th and take the 4.
Driving there just seems like a hastle,
It would be great if one day there was a Yankee Stadium station on Metro North.
"It would be great if one day there was a Yankee Stadium station on Metro North."
This is more likely to happen for the Harlem line only. -Nick
Do you mean the Hudson line?
The Concourse Plaza is a Senior Citizen residence.
Well, I have to admit that this "photo of the day" is a great photo from www.subwaywebnews.com, however the title suggests that there is "now a supermarket at the site of the Ridgewood arena". They must be referring to "Royal Farms" which was a supermarket there many, many years ago, but I do believe the building has been abandoned since around 1980, at least 20 years. Anyone familiar with it will know that even the parking lot had been growing trees through the cracks for many years. They only recently, in the last few months have been fixing the building up, and I believe it is supposed to become a restaurant or a club or something.
All in all though it is a great photo of the M approaching Seneca Avenue station, and does show a great view of the end of the long abandoned remains of the "express" track, and the bumper block just south of the Seneca Avenue station, and the Wyckoff tower seen from the opposite angle of most photographs. A great shot of a rarely seen angle of the M train.
Isn't it the Ridgewood Grove? I saw several wrestling bouts there in the early 1980's. At one time it was a very famous boxing and wrestling arena.
Yep, I remember it as the Ridgewood Grove also, but I didn't want to totally confuse people....Subwaywenews.com called it the Ridgewood Arena, and I wasn't sure if that was another name for it. The Saint Nicholas Ave side of the building was the Ridgewood Grove, and the Cypress Ave side of the building was Royal Farms Supermarket.
Was there a center/express track there at one time? Kinda looks like it from the picture.
Yes, there was. This is Wykoff Ave, loking south towards Knickerbocker, undated:
This would have made a great "mystery shot" photo. How many of us would have guessed it was at Wyckoff Ave thinking it was probably on the West End ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Someone who knows the area. This picture was recent so it was easier.
Not me. I would have guessed Culver, with the gate cars before the connection with the 5th Ave. el was severed.
That supermarket was converted into the "New Ridgewood Groves Arena" in 1982. They hosted many WWF, boxing, and Latino dances until finally closing down in 1987. Last wrestling event held there was a closed-circuit viewing of Wrestlemania 3. It was owned by the Sciacca family. A name mentioned many times in "Honor thy Father", by Bill Bonanno.
When I married into the area 10 years ago, it was a Latin club, (the left half), and the right half was a car dealership. The club closed not too long afterward, but the car dealership stayed for a while longer. The whold thing was empty for a few years, yet a new roof was put on, and a new rear, as the old rear burned in 1997 (It seemed to have been cut back before that as well. Now work finally proceeded, the whole exterior was redone ("The Ridgewood Grove" enghravement in the front was cemented over) and the interior gutted, and a pool hall opened upstairs, and a huge laundromat was supposed to move downstairs, but it seems work stopped or something, and there's still a "space available" sign in front.
Somewhere on the Lexington Ave el? Pitkin Ave el?
with the destination of eastern parkway, I would guess that it is probably on the Lex el
If anyone has a copy of , Number 2, BROOKLYN ELEVATED RAILROADS -1910-, go to the lower right photo on page 28.
It shows a similar photo of a Lexington el heading toward Eastern Parkway. No doubt about it.
I almost forgot the most important part of this- the location! It's the Grand Ave. station, just off of the Myrtle Ave. line. It had only
a downtown Brooklyn platform because this trackage was origionally part of the "Old Main Line". The eastbound platform had to be demolished when the Old Main Line was demolished in 1904-1905.
Considering there is only a platform for one direction, I'd assume that could be the Grand Av Station where the Lex merged with the Myrtle. Some posters have said in the past that the Lex only stopped there in one direction.
I once saw a pic of the Lexington Ave El once where an outbound train was making the turn off Myrtle Ave unto Grand Ave. There was a building close to the corner that I think prevented the platform from being built. Maybe the picture I'm thinking of was taken later than Chris' pic.
I was thinking it might have been Euclid Ave on the Fulton El. But the train shown has a sign that says EASTERN PARKWAY.
You got it,Sarge!
The picture was taken from the end of the single side platform of the Myrtle Ave station on the Lexington Ave line. The two side platforms in the right rear of the picture were on the Myrtle Ave line and wore signs that said Grand Ave.
Since the train was three cars, and they appear to be either 600 or 900 series cars, the train must have been a daytime non rush hour Lexington Ave line train. The Fulton-Lex used 1300 series gate cars.
Actually, you get the credit. I only knew about this station from your posts over the years. And when I saw only one track platformed I assumed it was Grand Avenue.
Nice! I suspect that's the Lexington Ave. El (either that or it was taken on Joe Frank's great O gauge layout).
Somewhere on the Lexington Ave el? Pitkin Ave el?
Paging Karl B, paging Karl B!
My response is here
That was a great old station!
I knew you'd recognize it!:)
I thought Pitkin had three tracks?
Another easy one. Grand and Myrtle looking north on the Lex. Big give away--only one platform, not to mention the BU with sign "EASTERN PARKWAY."
Hate to see transit infrastructure removed, but I must admit that this area is much prettier today with the bridge view unobstructed..
I'm not sure about that with the cars along there now.
In the days when Rapid Transit meant elevated trains and trollies,
those lines took you out to the "nice" viewing areas.
IMHO the fundamental weakness of the lines across the Brooklyn Bridge was that there weren't enough tracks - imagine 2 tracks of trolleys, 2 tracks from the Myrtle/Lex/5th Av El and 2 tracks from the Fulton St El on that bridge... that would have been spectacular!
I agree about the view, but remember that after the el trains stopped running over the BB in March 1944, the trolleys shifted to the el tracks and used a surface loop at Park Row till 1950. Too bad the trolleys were not retained. The #75/68 Smith St. and Coney Island Ave. route could have become a wonderfully nostalgic and tourist-oriented trip today:
Leaving City Hall/Park on the trolley, rolling smoothly over the historic Brooklyn Bridge looking a lower Manhattan in the background (and sadly today, minus the twins), then curving through downtown Brooklyn and then along today's trendy restaurant row on Smith Street, then along the wide swath of Coney Island Avenue through the heart of Brooklyn to Brighton Beach (Little Odessa) and Coney Island.
What a shame we can't do this anymore!
That's the IRT City Hall El station rather than the BMT Park Row station. You can see the Brooklyn Bridge entrance over to the right side of the picture.
The street next to the Municipal Building is Park Row, with the el above it going toward Chatham Square. It looks like extra structure was being removed, but the double-deck station lasted until around 1953, I think, when Third Avenue service was cut back to Chatham Square. After the Second Avenue service to Queens ended in the early 1940s, and after the elimination of South Ferry service, at City Hall only the lower level was still used for Third Avenue--it's a long time since I was on a train there, but I'm fairly sure we used the lower level (and got a paper transfer for the BMT there).
The writing on the picture says "facing NE from W. Side of Park Row,"
but that could be a bit confusing, too.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The free-standing steel girder over the street is about to be removed. It once held up the great two level BMT terminal at Park Row which indeed was demolished in 1944-45. You are absolutely right that the el structure to the left is for the IRT 3rd Ave. El, which was used until Dec 1953. That structure was left untouched by the demolition of the BMT Park Row terminal, except for a walkway outside of fare controls that connected the two stations.
Here is another view of the area from another era (1913), when the terminal structure extended over into City Hall Park.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/ParkRow.jpg
Thanks for the clarification. An intersting place for old time railfans, with the convergence of BRT and IRT el lines.
I'm surprised the IRT & BMT didn't exchange righs to operate their cars on the other's ROW's. Imagine Lexington And Myrtle Ave el service running up 2nd & 3rd Aves! I'm sure both systems were compatible.
Does anyone know what the color of this building was, i'm gussing it was a green color with brown trim and windows...anyone know? thanks.
I think Karl M.ExNewYorker od right in saying that the IRT station was green--sort of copper green, but I don't remember any trim color, if there was one.
I don't think the City was too concerned about contrasting trim in those days, and, judging from the photo it doesn't look like there's any difference for the trim. They must have finally run out of that Army surplus brown or khaki paint they slobbered all over the inside of so many cars.
We're talking fifty years ago, and the brain cells deteriorate the way that color photos used to (and sometimes still do).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Sorry about the dumb typo--fingers slipped one key to the right and "is" in my first line turned into "od." That's not a secret code to trigger a time machine to bring back Park Row and City Hall stations for twenty-four hours.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Good weekend to all. I went back to the lo-v car today with my sons camera. Not very good news. The car was completely tarped with blue construction tarps. The kid I spoke to last week saw me and said that I should meet his father. The gentleman said that it was purchased by a New York City group 3 weeks ago and that this group already owns the same type of car and they will make it run with other cars. He also said that they are having problems getting a truck to move it. He said that he will have no choice but to have it cut up and removed if they do not take it by 3/31. At this point he said that he had to go take care of a leg injury and that I should leave his property. Strange individual indeed! If these people do not take it, This car will be scrapped! We should get together at subtalk and buy it! I recvieved no answer from the transit museum about it. What do you people here think? How can we find the people here in NY that bought it? I don't want to see it lost! This is history
Robert
If I read what you are saying correctly, the Transit Museum has nothing to do with the acquisition. It is most likely a private organization which currently owns 4 Lo-Voltage Cars, stored in the Subway System. As with any subway car, I'd hate to see a piece of history lost. Hopefully, it will be saved....
-Stef
"If I read what you are saying correctly, the Transit Museum has nothing to do with the acquisition. It is most likely a private organization which currently owns 4 Lo-Voltage Cars, stored in the Subway System."
Are you talking about Railway Preservation ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct! But I won't say much more since I don't represent the Organization....
-Stef
I can understand their desire to get this car for preservation but given the state of their current collection should they really be aquiring more cars? Will they just have 5 Low-V's that don't run after this, instead of 4?
The four could run with a little TLC ... I think we all hope it happens for the 100th birthday.
A full restoration might be unrealistic, but as a parts source or pattern this body could be priceless. The cost of acquring this body would be far less than the cost of scratchbuilding even one significant body part. Its well worth a serious look.
Yeah, but the cost of actually moving the shell would be more than Railway Preservation wold be able to shell out. It cost us $600 to purchase 6398 for TMNY, but $11,000 to move it, $5500 in cash, and the other half in tax benefits to the movers. With a limited staff of volunteers and $$$ at hand, it is no wonder the SIRT car will likely be tossed. You can't save everything.
Right, you have to pick your fights & only fight the ones you can win or need winning. This won't be the first time something went to the scrappers, then later all the fence sitters had a lot to say about it.
I really don't know, but if someone from the organization would care to comment, I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.
Actually, the car should go to a Museum that already doesn't have one. I would like to see the car go to Seashore, it would go nicely with the Gibbs Car.
-Stef
Speaking of Gibbs, do any deck-roof cars survive anywhere ?
3662 is a Deck Roof and survives at Branford.....
3662 took power last Saturday in preperation for her cameo appearance in this Sunday's charter at Branford. We also added oil to the wheel journals.
The other existing Hi-V, Gibbs #3352, is safe & sound at Seashore.
As always, it's nice to see the Hi-V in action. Full steam ahead!!!
-Stef
STEAM ?????
600 volts ! Watch what you touch < grin >
Congratulations! Damn, I wish we could afford to get down there for this. :(
Hopefully, once "regime change" has occurred, we'll have an economy again and it'll be possible. I'm dying to see that car ...
"... I'm dying to see that car ..."
Politically correct right now should be ... very anxious to see her :-)
Oh BLOWME ... you MET me ... ain't a political correct bone in my pants. Feel free to check if ya must. :)
Congrats just the same in making the car run ... wish I was at the handles for a trip or ten. Heh. Like I said, LoV's I've done (been so long I forget how to run them, but I was rusty enough with 1689 the first trip or two after 30 years ... FORTUNATELY, Unca Lou let me do the yard moves (including the "don't you DARE reverse any further curve" out the back end of the bar ... YOU KNOW ...) and into position which helped me IMMENSELY in remembering how to do the SLOW moves in a yard (any moron can pull three notches, OK genius, now try to STOP it) ... would LOVE to have been able to get it on with a HiV having heard tails of the arcy-sparky (you KNOW how nuts I am from personal experience) and in particular the glass window where none shall pass if the pole's got a stiffy on wire ... heh.
But it would have REALLY been nice if I could have managed to push the magic plunger in the center there - and FELT the power - you know how I am for being completely SOAKED in rain and handling 600 hot volts while WET. :)
When you power up the beast you have to go into the "box of death". If you give the old girl a LOT of respect she'll be nice to you.
Perhaps Nate Gerstein had something to do with this? Nate is a railfan/entrepreneur with an auto body shop in Brooklyn who does quite a bit of work in the preservation field. I believe he is hoping to get the Mineola done (or displayable) by 10/27/04.
Even if the entire carbody cant be preserved, it certainly has some usable parts, or artifacts worth conserving. We dont have a Low-V at Seashore, and have little need for prewar IRT parts in general, but Im sure a gang of us (myself included) would be willing to help out a fellow preservation group for a weekend, especially if time is of the essence. Please keep us in the loop, we will see what we can do to help.
Nate sold his auto-body shop that was in Flatlands a couple of years ago, but I believe he has a new place closer to his home in New Jersey...as far as I know there is no work being done to restore the Mineloa due to lack of funding.
I think that someone should acquire the Lo-V car and move it out right -a-way even if it is just to serve for spare parts. It would be even better if it could be used for the T/A museum fleet or perhaps it could be kept at Seashore or another rail preservation museum.
#3 West End Jeff
Very much agreed. Though the cost of moving an entire body gets very expensive, especially if cranes are involved (I hired a crane last summer in Marietta, Ohio to move Kuhlman streetcar body - $800 for 4 hours, PLUS the flatbed to Maine). Hopefully the situation will work out here. If the whole body cant be saved, the parts are the next best thing.
Let's hope that the entire car can be saved so that it can add another IRT Lo-V to the collection of preserved historical NYC subway cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Is Pennsylvania becoming a refuge for long lost IRT cars? First we learn that Manhattan Elevated car 782 is kicking around somewhere near Gettysburg then lo and behold Lo-V 20303 turns up near Norristown. If this is indeed an IRT car then 20303 is really Interborough 5506. A 1925 product of the American Car and Foundry Company of Berwick, Pennsylvania. Maybe she was headed back to the old homestead.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Is Pennsylvania becoming a refuge for long lost IRT cars? First we learn that Manhattan Elevated car 782 is kicking around somewhere near Gettysburg then lo and behold Lo-V 20303 turns up near Norristown. If this is indeed an IRT car then 20303 is really Interborough 5506. A 1925 product of the American Car and Foundry Company of Berwick, Pennsylvania. Maybe she was headed back to the old homestead.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
HI LARRY: Perhaps I missed this earlier thread, but could you give some details on the Manhattan El car? I recall reading as a kid (ca 1970) that a tourist RR near there, maybe the Gettysburg RR, had some of these coaches but I never knew their disposition. My understanding is that a few Manhattan El coaches were send out there for war-related work (like a temporary passenger service to a military plant). Would LOVE details, a great excuse for an archaeological expedition. The York, PA area is replete with former York Railways carbodies.
BTW, a Composite survived as a diner in Farmington, Indiana after WWII. It had been sent west to serve at the Remington (firearms) plant. I have contacted the local historical society with no positive results, Im planning a trip out there when the Jakes Associates people mover at the Indianapolis Clairon Medical Center opens.
Best Wishes!
Conrad Misek, Boston
Alright, put the Opie and Anthony jokes aside....
I couldn't think of a better word for this amazing shot at the LIRR Yard A. It shows what I guess is a new R32 connected to a gondola car.
There are many "fallen flag" railroad boxcars, and a World'Fair R33.
WHAT ELSE COULD YOU ASK FOR?
....WOW....
(only the Opie and Anthony definition of "WOW" could be better.....)
(from subwaywebnews.com)
Neat shot!
There's a photo that must have been taken immediately after that one on the site here, by Bob Fried. Either he took the one from subwaywebnews too or one of his friends did....
No, they can't be the same photo. They're taken from slightly different angles; the first one is taken from farther back and slightly to the left. The second one is further up and slightly to the right. And in the first photo the train(WF)'s fifth car, first door is adjacent to the signal. In the second photo the trains fifth car, second door is adjacent to the signal.
So, taken from 2 different people at slightly different angles, and one was a few seconds after the other.
Either way, an awesome pic.
Either way, an awesome pic.
Very true. Now that's something we can all agree on.
> No, they can't be the same photo.
Didn't say they were. Said they were taken immediately after each other.
Oops, my bad. Thanks for clarifying.
Now THAT'S how I remember the R-32s! Bright, shiny, brand-spanking new. How about those blue doors?
I'm still gazing at those WF cars! :)
What's the deal with this?
Probably something programmed for when a train goes over a route that the subway doesn't normally take.
"*1053 LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT (* For use in special circumstances)"
Tony,
Do you have the list of everything that the R44/46's are currently programmed to display on those signs?
--MetsFan4552
I used to have them as a PocketExcel spreadsheet, but I left the battery dead too long in my iPaq and lost it. Of course, "I don't need to backup my data" was the thought at the time.
That's not strange, I witnessed that before.
Heh, yeah, when the R-110B ran on the C that sign was up all the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
So, the PA system didn't work for the R110B?
Not while it was on the C
Peace,
ANDEE
Because it was orginally programmed for the A Line.
This is VERY interesting. To my educated guess there is supposed to be a spoken announcement. However, what you wind up hearing depends upon the clarity of the P/A system at that particular station.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, while I was there, for about 5 minutes, I didn't hear anything. In fact, the train had just opened its doors at the same time as ours. At the front it was signed as an A. People got on, because the light indicating the next train was pointing to it. If there was an announcement, it was with very low volume.
The volume must have been so low that nobody could hear it. SHHHHHH!, be quiet, I must listen for the announcement.
#3 West End Jeff
Good observation, since this was the same train that I encountered on my uneventful trip to Lefferts Blvd. (instead of Rockaway Park). The second R44 set had this message, and the crowded platform at Rockaway Blvd. was all quiet listening for the soft-spoken conductor's announcement, which was hard to hear. This one happened to be going to Lefferts, so the people got discouraged. (It was 25 degrees outside) As to my knowledge, this doesn't mean anything. The only question I have is, why did the workers not change this from over a month ago? It also feels spooky in a sense.
The funny thing is, I saw this train head back to 207th from Lefferts at Rockaway Blvd. before I had to finally take an R38 to Lefferts because the Far Rockaway train wasn't showing up.
Today was awesome. The weather was great. It was sunny. And the silverbirds were out in force (like they ever aren't). Here is a nice photo I took today.
R-62A 2156 sb @ 215 St on the (1)
Take Pride,
Brian
Yaaaye...LET'S HERE IT FOR THE SILVER BIRDS!!!!!
Ooops, was it me that was saying, "Say no to silver".
Well, yes those R62/62A do look pretty sharp, and I am liking them more and more all the time....they must join forces against the R142's....
Anyway...yet another reflection in the railfan window...this time a backwards 215 St sign....COOL.
Yeah, I seem to always be catching a reflection of something in the railfan window or the next window over.
Hmmm, maybe next time you should be taking photos of R62A's at a station near the open windows of some young lady's apartment.
What time did you take that photo? I was over there yesterday at about 1PM, in the back of a #1 train. Maybe I saw you?
No, we were there between 9:15am and 10:30am. I took almost the same photos as you. I'll get them online, eventually. It's just that I have 100 or more previous photos that have to be put online first.
---BM
....sometime ago,at Hoyt-Schemerhorn, just as the morning rush was starting to kick in, I noticed an empty R44 train laying over on Track A-1 (one of the tracks used to connect with the Transit Museum's Court St stubs. Is it normal for regular revenue trains to lay over on A-1? Or was this a fluke? Do trains ever lay over on the track which connects to the Museum, A-2?
More than likely it was a movie train.
Both A1 and A2 connect to the Museum. Past Nostalgia Specials would use A1 (Queensbound Local Track) to access Court St. I always got a kick out of the reaction of the customers when they see a ghost train passing on a dark platform. Not really sure about the R-44 Set, but it could have been there for movie purposes as Goumba Tony has already stated. Hoyt St is popular for this. You can reverse into A1 from east (railroad south) of the station by passing dwarf signals on the express or local tracks. I was on at least one Nostalgia Special which crossed from the express track (A3) to the local track (A1) leaving Hoyt St, as your typical C Local Train, changed directions past the crossover, and wrongrailed back through Hoyt St against the wall.
-Stef
The 3 was running in two sections, split at Utica. (This somehow failed to make it to the service advisory page.) SB trains were running express from Atlantic to Utica, and shuttle trains were single-tracking on the SB track between Utica and Livonia.
The 4 was cut short at 149-GC, with a shuttle to 161. Since it had no access to the yard, it seemed to be running a mix of R-62's from the 4 and R-142's from the 5 -- I don't see any R-33's (from either line) or R-142A's, but they may have been out there. Some trains were terminating on the 2/5 (lower level) track at 149-GC. Others were terminating on the usual NB track upstairs, relaying, and coming back into 149-GC on the middle track (bypassing 138 SB). The shuttle train (S 1556-60 / 1625-20 N) was running both ways on the SB track. This led to a Jamaica-like situation: passengers on an arriving NB 4 train were directed to stampede through the SB train on the middle track to reach the shuttle. I've never seen anything like it on the subway.
The L was also split, at Broadway Junction. The BJ-Canarsie segment was a single R-40M set (4541 north motor) running both ways on the SB track. There was work going on near the Canarsie terminal but I didn't see anything near Atlantic, to my surprise.
At least one R-32 set was running on the R.
The West End shuttle had two R-40 sets. One had south motor 4440 and was signed with a yellow S at either end; the other had south motor 4269 and north motor 4405 and was signed with an orange S at tne south end and the word "Shuttle" at the north.
The Sea Beach W also had at least one R-40 set (4245 N), signed for and running in Kings Highway service. (The T/O checked the storm door as he got on, but it opened anyway approaching DeKalb. I told him and he tugged at it, but it wouldn't open for him or for me.) There was also at least one R-40M set (4479 S / 4455 N).
The weather was perfect for railfanning, and no one thought I was a terrorist.
The 4 was cut short at 149-GC, with a shuttle to 161. Since it had no access to the yard, it seemed to be running a mix of R-62's from the 4 and R-142's from the 5 -- I don't see any R-33's (from either line) or R-142A's
There were 1 or 2 redbirds on the 4 out there today. I know at least 1 I saw. No #'s, passed the cameras too fast, sorry.
All of the 4's 142A's have been laid up in CCYD on Friday night for the weekends of this GO. Why, I don't know.
Thanks. Did you notice if they had orange stickers or black stickers?
I was getting worried that perhaps no Redbirds were running at all this weekend. The 5 never needs to run its Redbirds on weekends, though there's usually one train set out. The 4 surely didn't need to run its four sets with its GO. The last time I rode the 7 during its GO, it has only one or two sets of Redbirds running, and it's quite possible that it doesn't need those, especially if it's recently gotten any more R-62A's (I don't think it has, but I can't keep an eye on everything).
So I'm glad to hear that that day has not yet arrived.
Sorry, I didn't catch any of the stickers.
If you were carrying a camera you would have been suspect!
He and Brian were not only carrying cameras with zoom lenses and photographing the you-know-what out of the 207 st yards from the platform above, I was crawling around trying to figure out if the oldish yellow gratings are made of plastic (I don't think so). We WERE questioned.
Two more items:
If the 4 is programmed to terminate at 149-GC, the R-142 announcement at 138 is, "This is a Bronx-bound 4 express train," even though it's already in the Bronx and it's no longer an express. Based on the usual R-142 pattern, shouldn't it announce, "This is a One Hundred Fourty-Ninth Street - Grand Concourse-bound 4 train"?
Since the L was isolated from the yard, there was an R-143 set in the spur track between 6th and 8th. I didn't see anything but R-143's on the line except for the R-40M set on the shuttle.
It'd be really nice if the 2 between Wall St and Park Pl said "this is a Bronx-bound 2 train" or "this is a Brooklyn-bound 2 train" instead of "... express train", since it's not an express there. I haven't been on an R-142 4, but I'd guess they have the same problem between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green.
A
Certainly. Similarly on Lenox Avenue, where everything runs local. But we're talking about the same trains that invariably announce themselves as expresses, even when they run local (like they do every night and like they did for a year at all times), so I won't get my hopes up.
When I was hanging out at 125th and Lex a few weeks ago, I noticed that the announcements on the 6, specifically, caused a problem. By 125th NB, nobody cares if the train was local or express in Manhattan; the Bronx is what matters. The 4 is now a local, the 5 is now an express (in the afternoon rush), and 6 trains vary. On every NB 6 train that went by, the C/R manually announced its Bronx status. Shouldn't the computer be able to do that?
I haven't ridden on the 6 in a while so I could be wrong, but I think it does start to announce Local or Express at 138/3 Av.
That's right. It should start one stop earlier. It doesn't matter to passengers boarding NB trains at 125th whether they went local or express in Manhattan.
Are they doing that shuttle GO on the W again next weekend? I would love to get a shot of that "S" train you described.
I don't think so, but it's repeated every so often, so keep an eye on the advisories.
No, this weekend (March 29,31), Coney Island bound W trains run on Fred's line, so N trains are sick again, no N shuttle service either.
For details, see N and W service advisories
"The 3 was running in two sections, split at Utica. (This somehow failed to make it to the service advisory page.)"
It was in the weekend service changes poster and in this advisory.
But there was no mention on the 4 line G.O. at 161st st about a shuttle train from 149th st to 161st st. It would be also interesting to see if C/R's on the Northbound D line, would alert customers not to change for the N/B 4 train at 161st st when they arrive at that station, since there was no service on the 4 above 161st st (or they will make these customers wait for another D train after they learned about the G.O. upstairs. When I come back from next Sunday's Branford trip, I will take a stroll in that area see how much fun it is.
During that GO, between Atlantic and Franklin the 3 and 4 were running express but the 2 was running local as normal (because the actual work was past Franklin, so the 2 could still go local).
The advisory poster at Grand Army Plaza instructed New Lots bound passengers to take the Manhattan-bound 2, 3, or 4 to Atlantic, then change to a Brooklyn-bound train. Only they could simply have said "take the 2 instead." Similarly, at Atlantic there were posters suggesting taking the 3 or 4 to Franklin, then doubling back, rather than just waiting for the 2. I almost followed the directions before realizing they were wrong.
The posters on the Web site in PDF do have the correct recommendations.
David
Actually, the only work (AFAIK) was at Utica itself, on the lower level (NB) local platform. That necessitated single-tracking on the SB track between Utica and Livonia. And since the single-track shuttle had to use the upper level (SB) local platform, there could be no SB local service into Utica either, so the SB 3 had to run express.
Er, um, read "track" for "platform."
It was in the weekend service changes poster and in this advisory.
Um, where do you see it in this advisory? It's listed for this coming weekend but not for this past weekend.
The MTA web site updates the service advisories every Friday afternoon, so the 4 line G.O. in the original web site posting had 3 dates listed (March 15-16, 22-23 and 29-30.). As each weekend progresses, the old dates are taken off.
I know. Yesterday was March 23. Where do you see any sort of split service listed for March 22-24? I see a different (though related) service change listed for March 22-24, and I see split service listed for March 29-31, but I see no split service listed for March 22-24.
You are not alone, NYCT confuses anyone who reads the myriad of service changes on a particular line by mixing up the dates.
We're not confused, the MTA is just WRONG. We know exactly what is going on once we ride the G.O.
---Brian
"We're not confused, the MTA is just WRONG. We know exactly what is going on once we ride the G.O."
Yes, just like I pointed out in a earlier post today as to the existence of a Ditmas Ave station, as per the announcement concerning W service.
I'm not going to broadcast your email address for everyone on SubTalk to see, but those of us who did get it (and there are quite a few) know who you are. I don't know if I speak for everyone but PLEASE do not take mine (or others') email addresses from SubTalk and send chainmail to it.
I think I know what/who you're talking about. I didn't appreciate it either. I just blocked the address.
Peace,
ANDEE
Alright, I've gotten numerous emails on the subject, so I'm posting the ones I have written on the back of my butcherblock book. Unfortunately being regular on the A and F at the time, I knew them by heart and by now have forgotten them. But for the (somewhat rare) codes that I have:
Unfortunately I have lost the codes for the "K" :-(
style="text-align: left; width: 100%;">
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Code
* pre 12/16/01
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Line
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Dest.
1
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Dest
2.
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Route
1
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">Route
2
*1
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
JAMAICA CTR
8 AV LOCAL
QUEENS LOCAL
1
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
JAMAICA CTR
PARSONS-ARCHER
8 AV LCL
QUEENS BL EXP
*3
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
3
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LCL
via 53 ST
*4
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
JAMAICA CTR
8 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
75
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
JAMAICA CTR
via 6 AV
580
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">A
toROCKAWAY PARK
8 AV/FULTON EXP
39
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">C
toBEDFORD PK
8 AV LOCAL
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">A
toFAR ROCKAWAY
viaDELANCY ST
FULTON ST LOCAL
40
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">C
to145 ST/MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
437
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
to EUCLID AVE
8 AV/FULTON LCL
925
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(51, 204, 255);">E
WEST 4 ST
*27
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">R
to95ST/KKLYN
BROADWAY LOCAL
27
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">R
BAY RIDGE
95 ST
BROADWAY LCL
via 60 ST
*37
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">R
71/CONTINENTAL
BROADWAY LOCAL
37
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">R
FOREST HILLS
71 AV
BROADWAY LCL
via 60 ST
757
212
style="vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">R
N
LEXINGTON AV
CANAL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
803
S
WEST 4 ST
13: SPECIAL
17: SHUTTLE
51: LAST STOP
50: N.I.S.
49
LISTEN FOR
ANNOUNCEMENT
1053: WALK THRU TRAIN
Some Interesting Items To Note From Today -
1) One Redbird Train placed into service on the 5, for the Sunday AM. Redbirds still kicking at Dyre Av.
2) Bombardier R-142s in service on the 4 for the GO. I observed at least one set of R-142s heading southbound at Jackson with #4 signage. I can only assume it was going into service on the lower level of 149th St-GC. Car numbers were 6991-95 and 7011-15 (borrowed from 5 service).
3) Another Burn Test Set for the 5?!? 6901-05 and 7176-80 were doing road sims today. 7177 is still missing number plates, paper signs with the car number were taped to the windows. That would make at least 3 sets to enter service on the 5. This should wipe off the Redbirds completely from the 5 once and for all. R-142s assigned on the 5 reaching the 400 Car Mark?
4) The first Moshoulu Yard R-142 set doing Burn Tests? Observed a set running downtown in the last hour. Sorry, don't have the numbers handy, but I believe that is 6811-15 and 7156-60. Will have to check that.
That's all for now!
-Stef
I'm sorry if this seems like a no-brainer, but what exactly is a 'burn test' and how is it different from regular tests?
Burn tests set up the recorded PA announcements.
Really? They have to be set up on each train individually?
Will all of the R-143's have to be reburned next week? The distances from Sutter to Atlantic and probably from Atlantic to BJ will have decreased.
Ok the R142 being test for #4 service is 7141-45 and 7161-65. It was out tonight as well.
There should be three other burn test sets as well, 6811-15 and 7156-60, 6901-05 and 7176-80, and 7146-55. One thing that puzzles me is two of the three sets were already burn testing for the 5. I'm confused! 6806-10 and 6886-90 may very well be the last set to enter service on the 5 line.
Of course, there are still 1100 series cars that need to do road testing....
-Stef
I know its getting crazy. I seen a R62 #4 with # 3 signs between all 10 cars at Brooklyn Bridge. So it looks like the R62 are getting ready for the # 3 Line and more R142 for the #4 Line.
...1900...Ground is broken in front of City Hall for the Lexington Avenue subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the date that the entrance to the City Hall Station was cemented over?
I'm not sure, but I think ir was sometime in the 40s.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it was after 1946 when City Hall Station was closed.
Thanks for the reminder, Andee. Three years ago today I attended the 100th anniversary of the groundbreaking ceremony at GCT! -Nick
MTA Announcement
or point your browswer at http://www.mta.info/alert/alertmnr.htm
In response to the threads about whose has the longest (you perverts ;-)), I looked up info for what systems have the biggest, largest or smallest of anything. These are categories that I thought are pretty general are the most asked questions. I looked up the info from Jane’s Urban Transport Systems, 20th Ed. (unless noted otherwise), a credible source that publishes this book yearly. Maybe your local library will have a copy. Go to their website to learn more about them.
Feel free to add more categories or correct me (I didn’t look up *every* system to see their stats, I might have skipped something), but don’t add dumb stuff like, “largest system with two color signals and three tracks.” That’s way too specific. EVERY subway could be the best at something if you think of something like that. Make sure you back up your statement.
For subway:
Most passengers: Moscow, 3.2 billion/year
Most route miles: London Underground, 253 miles (http://www.local-transport.dft.gov.uk/nysubway/)
Most track miles: NYCT, 656 miles (http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/factsfigures.html)
Most stations: NYCT, 468 (http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/factsfigures.html)
Most passenger intensity (most crowded): Hong Kong, 30.2 million passengers per mile per year (http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm)
Most rolling stock: NYCT, 5800 (http://www.local-transport.dft.gov.uk/nysubway/ )
Shortest average distance between stations: Paris, .33 miles (124 route mi/368 stations)
Longest average distance between stations: BART, 2.4 miles (94 route mi/39 stations)
Oldest: London, 1863
Deepest station: "over 100 meters [320 feet] in some places" (http://www.ticketsofrussia.ru/spguide/about.html)
Highest elevated: NYCT, Smith/9th, 87 feet (there might be something higher, but I couldn’t find ANYTHING about high elevated stations, save for Smith/9th.
For commuter rail:
Most passengers: Tokyo, 5.7 BILLION/year (holy SHIT!!). I only counted services classified as “suburban rail” (JR East, Hokuso, Seibu Tetsudo). If I counted interurban rail (Keikyu, Keio Dentetsu, Keisei Dentetsu, Odakyo, Tobo Tetsudo), the number would have jumped to a mind blowing 8.5 billion/year. Absolutely INSANE.
Most route miles: Tokyo, 798 miles (suburban rail only)
Most track miles: ?
Most stations: ?
Most rolling stock: Tokyo, 7478 cars (suburban rail only)
I don't know about Tokyo, but NYC may deserve the category of "most complicated", as I mentioned on another thread. The many places where forks are available (and used) in the INBOUND direction exceed what London has, even if you don't include local and express tracks as separate routes.
It's the "most complicated" factor that has lead to thousands of postings on this site about how to redo the subway system here. You don't have those postings about other systems because it's not feasible there.
I agree with you, but can you quantify "most complicated?"
(I agree with you, but can you quantify "most complicated?" )
Yes. Complexity is the degree to which the system has forks in it as trains approach the central business district. Details are here .
Though I made at least one mistake. There is no connection from Jamaica to 14th St.
"There is no connection from Jamaica to 14th St. "
Maybe one day. Hope springs eternal.
Deepest Station----as far as a world record is concerned--Moscow---
But in the Western Hemisphere---is it not Forest Glen on the Red Line of the DC Metro?
I thought it was Wheaton or Glenmont.
I forgot to write WHERE the deepest station is, it's in St. Petersburg, Russia. The city is built on top of swampland, so they had to dig very deep to get to stable rock.
If you count light rail, Portland has the deepest station in N. America. Counting just subways, its WMATA.
"Deepest Station----as far as a world record is concerned--Moscow---
But in the Western Hemisphere---is it not Forest Glen on the Red Line of the DC Metro?"
Yes, roughly 230' 70.1m
Stations in order of depth on WMATA from deepest to around 60' 18.2m. I don't have the exact figure from street to platform. This is based on a table I have of longest escalator vertical rise on metrorail.
(B09) Forest Glen
(B10) Wheaton Station
(A04) Woodley Zoo Park
(A09) Bethesda
(A10) Medical Center
(A07) Tenleytown
(C05) Rosslyn
(A03) Dupont Circle
(A08) Friendship Heights
(A05) Cleveland Park
(A06) Van Ness
(K01) Court House
(F07) Congress Heights
John
Highest elevated. This raises questions about just how you define 'high'. Does this include runs across bridges? I would think the Man or Wm bridge tracks are more than 100 feet above whatever you should measure from (mean sea level? mean low tide?).
For BART, it gets awfully high has it climbs over the freeway interchange into Concord station.
"This raises questions about just how you define 'high'. Does this include runs across bridges?"
I think that means highest stations
There are no stations ON the Man or Wm bridges.
What about that pseudo-station way-way up on the WmB bridge structure just as it enters Manhattan, the one with the short platforms and the gazillion steps down to the street. Is this an old abandoned station or (more reasonably) an emergency exit?
I cannot imagine anyone ever walking up all those steps to catch a train: the hike to Essex St. is probably shorter.
As I recall, this is not mentioned anywere in the FAQs. Nor do I remember it ever being discussed here (tho' I may indeed have been). But certainly, it qualifies as a sort of station, perhaps even as an abandoned station.
At it sure is high high up, perhaps higher than Smith/9th.
That was never a "subway" station-- just trolleys. So it wouldn't have ever qualified as highest subway station.
I'm trying to remember it (it has been a long time), but as I recall, the trains actually go right past the platforms there, as if it were a station, or am I misremembering?
My comments about anyone using it as a subway station apply equally to its use as a trolley stop: who's gonna climb up/down that heroic flight of stairs?
It does occur to me, tho', that those stairs might be mainly an artifact of back when the Williamsburgh Bridge had huge numbers of daily pedestrians; going downstairs there might have been something of a shortcut.
That was an announcement I heard on a continious basis from a dedicated announcer from Dekalb master tower. Gee, last time I checked on a subway map, it was supposed to be Ditmars Blvd. Ditmas Ave is in Brooklyn, about 1 block north of Newkirk Ave. And does anyone working in the same tower took notice of this mistake?
Sunday afternoon was no better, a male announcer incorrectly read the Q line G.O. (S/B express from Prospect Park to Kings Highway), and announced it from PP to Brighton Beach instead. Does the announcer ever heard of another G.O. affecting N/B Q service from Sheepshead Bay to Kings Highway? (weekend 10 PM Friday to 5 AM Monday, N/B Q trains skip Ave U and Neck Road) If I was to go by what the announcer said, there would be NO service at either Ave U or Neck Road station from 7 AM to 7 PM, since trains would have skipped these stations in both directions.
Did the W announcement also claim, "that due to construction, there is no N service between Ditmars Blvd and 86 St this weekend"? That one was running last weekend at 57/7 all day.
In the defense of the D.A.'s, to my knowledge they must follow a certain script, and I have heard of them getting written up for not reading it word for word. So, I guess its better to read the wrong info that's given to them than risk gettign written up (but in this case, I don't see how that's too great a defence).
Call the TA and complain. Then when the supervisor shows up and the D.A. shows them the 'incorrect' script, maybe they'll start getting people writing these things that know what they're talking about.
If I was the dedicated announcer, I would ask my supevisors and point out that mistake first. If I noted any type of mistake anywhere within NYCT, I would flood the MTA website with my emails. So many of them, they will probably draw a rule to automatically place my messages in the Trash bin.
Ha, good point, but remember, not all of us have common sense :)
So true. You are 100% correct. At least I have a keen sense of the many things is see and hear in the world's greatest subway system, particularly THE world's greatest subway line, my beloved Brighton Line.
Anybody remember this thread?
"I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metoropolitan areas atlases. Suffice to say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and I have used all the letters, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routings, names of lines and route markers, leave your repsonses/questions here and I'll answer them as thoroughly as I can."
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Thanks,
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
Heh. Ain't it funny? I've written "transit fiction" as you've noted. Nothing really substantial; a few handwritten pages done in bursts of transit enthusiasm. Something like:
"...the neighborhood boosted not just one secondary in-town commuter/long distance train terminal, but a total of three! And it also has the Meriton Avenue streetcar terminal, a charming three story structure complete with residential quarters on the top floor and ancillary station services in the waiting room proper, including a barber shop, two restaurants and a newstand. Meriton Avenue has four lines branching out from the terminal: Croy Hill Street, Loudon/Park Hall, Tenth Ave (which goes subway four blocks away) and the Bealeville Express line.
Bealeville is the longest routing: 48 miles from Meriton. As do ALL the routes, it runs down Meriton Avenue (the terminal is sited at the Green River to its rear; Meriton parallels the river) to Broad Junction where the river bends east, crossed at this point by the elevated three track Eastoninton and Bywter freight railroad tracks, just coming off their Green River bridge crossing. There, the various streetcar routes actually begin their respective diversions."
It's like, I'll get into drawing imaginary transit routings...and will want to flesh out what the drawing could represent. Generally, I really don't make a big story about it. Just like to talk about the imaginary detail from a railfan point of observation. Is that what you're referring to with "transit fiction"? From what you've shown on this board, my stuff is mere doodling. Still entertaining though; enough that I enjoy reading the stuff after enough time has gone by since I've written it. (I've heard that many authors don't like reading their own works. So in one sense, me reading my own material for fun is like, uh.....playing with myself.)
Port Authority press release
or point your browswers to: http://www.panynj.gov/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=327
Old is new again. A memory from high school in the early 60's -- B&O installs new bridge over Arthur Kill. That was and will be again the connection from SIR(T) to Conrail Shared Assets (former CNJ). Glad to see it revived.
Paul Kersey is hunting again:
In the New York area, WPIX (Ch. 11) will be airing the original "Death Wish" movie on Saturday night at 8 PM.
Wonder if Bernard Goetz will be watching it or not.
Channel 11 will cut it to ribbons.
Peace,
ANDEE
It runs on Starz/Encore or Showtime/Flix every now and then. Wonder how AOL-TV got their mitts on it?
You have to love Charles Bronson. He kicks ass in this movie! Any mention of notable subway scenes besides the WF cars on the Sunnyside viaduct at the opening?
Speaking of movies, I watched a good classic on NYC 13. I forgot the movie but it's very famous, it of course, starts with
'New York, New York, it's a wonderful town! The Bronx is up and the Battery's down... and so forth.;
It has Gene Kelly and Frank Sinatra. Anyway, my question is about the very beginning. While the song is playing, the three wait at a Manhattan El for a train. What train were they waiting for? I'm assuming it's a pre-unification BMT type. And the pary where one of the sailors bumps into 'Ms. Turnstyles', did they really ring bells prior to closing the doors? I'd imagine they'd need a way to alert the passengers. :)
On the Town, perhaps?
I just picked up this movie on DVD and I noticed that there is a scene which supposedly takes place at the Van Wyck and Stuphin Blvd. stations. Also, Prince Akeem (Eddie Murphy) boards what appears to be a graffiti loaded R38 E Train to Jamaica. If you have seen this movie, does everything in this movie seem correct? (Like are those the real stations or are those really R38's?)
Search subtalk for past posts of "Comung to America", there was a lot of discussion on it, but in summary:
The R38 is real, and looks like they all did in the 80's.
The station is real, although it's Hoyt-Schermerhorn St, not the real Sutphin Blvd (which is a wall platform station in real life)
No, all station footage, (except the entrance outside in the soaking rain.) took place at the Hoyt St/IND station. Supthin Blvd/Hillside is a local stop, not what you see as an express stop in the movie. Also, take note the blue and yellow murals against the wall and to the side of the token booth.
Many films use Hoyt Street (the shuttle platforms toward Court St) as an ideal location because it is not in public space, trains can be used as much as they want without interupting current service, and the public can see what they are filming from the A, C and G platforms.
One thing I remember: Some scenes which were supposed to be in Queens, such as the one where Murphy is yelling out to the streets how happy he is to be in Queens, etc, and people start yelling out of apartment windows for him to shut up, it was actually Brooklyn. Williamsburg to be precise, since you can see street signs for Hewes Street.
Hewes Street was the Broadway El station in the background. The apartment building was at the corner of Hooper and S. 5th Streets (chech the signs).
Yeah. That's right, it was Hooper. Thanks.
At 3.30 p.m. today (10.30 a.m. Eastern Standard Time) London Underground reopened a service at the Western end of the Central Line, between Ealing Broadway and Marble Arch on a ten-minute headway.
This is in addition to the separate service operating at the Eastern end, between Woodford and Bethnal Green on a five-minute headway.
It will be two months tomorrow since the derailment that caused the closure of the Central Line.
Great news!
For those who are interested, BBC London is running a sweepstakes as to when the whole line will open. Details here.
My bet's on Easter Monday.
"My bet's on Easter Monday."
So is mine - though LU has been saying "before Easter", so it might just be Good Friday instead. Either way I won't be there to ride on it - I'll be riding the St Petersburg metro then! And incidentally a part of St Pete's red line has been "temporarily" closed since 1996, when the tunnel caved in.
As of 15 minutes ago, the double doors in the wall at the 35th St mezzanine of the 34th/6th station were open! In there is the passageway that went all the way to 42nd Street. I looked in as I walked by and saw the floor rising steeply up to a point and then it dropped again. There were plain steel columns, and the passage looked pretty wide. The area looked very dirty. If you are nearby and interested, you should take a quick walk over. The passageway is outsdie of fare control so it won't cost you anything. Good luck! I was really excited to see it open.
---Brian
Was the passageway as you saw it stilled tiled? I can understand it being dirty.
I really can't remember what was on the walls. Sorry.
It *was* tiled, and it was CLEAN when I walked through it in the 70s.
Elias
I remember it tiled myself. It's probably very dirty now. But tiled I remember it to be.
That passageway was closed for security concerns, does that mean we can use the 38th st/6th ave exits also?
The passageway is still closed. The doors were open for workers to do stuff in there or get stuff that was in there. And according to this website, the exits were at 37th street, not 38th.
> And according to this website, the exits were at 37th street, not
> 38th.
Yeah and we're never wrong here! :-)
Well, speaking of which, on the same page, it is also written that the northern exits of 34th/6th are at 36th Street, when in fact they are at 35th Street.
---Brian
Fixed
Thanks :)
"Yeah and we're never wrong here! :-)"
OK I was a block off, and from time to time, I was corrected on a few areas in the past. But there are a few corrections needed regarding captions on this webstite that I noted in post 447902.
Also, under the information for the . the clebrated chase sequence did NOT go all the way up to 9th Ave, an open cut station. It ended at the 60th st side of the 62nd st subway station.
Thanks. To get my attention faster, use feedback to send me corrections. I can't possibly read all the posts.
I often see the gate at the 40th Street end open:
Cool beans, dude
I see that ALL the time. I walk through that space daily.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS...I ALSO used to walk through that passage DAILY. Before it was closed and placed behind fare control.
Peace,
ANDEE
So it really went all the way to the 42nd Street station? And had an exit at 37th street?
---Brian
>>>So it really went all the way to the 42nd Street station? And had an exit at 37th street? <<<
It sure did. Originally it was ALL behind fare control with turnstiles at 37th St. When they moved fare control to 35th and 40th and made the passage free is when they started to have all the problems that forced its ultimate closure. An argument for the anti-token booth elimination people among us.
It has also been said that the space was originally supposed to be used for track alignment for H&M/PATH up 6th Avenue. This, obviously, never happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Aditionally, the reason that they had an entrance at 37th St. was to placate the people who complained about the elimination of that station when the 6th Ave. El was eliminated.
Peace,
ANDEE
^^^"It sure did. Originally it was ALL behind fare control with turnstiles at 37th St. When they moved fare control to 35th and 40th and made the passage free is when they started to have all the problems that forced its ultimate closure."^^^
ANDEE, IIRC and I'm fiveteen years your senior and used the passageway
in the later part of the fifties. I worked for Western Union at
Sixth Avenue & 38th Street. It was a free passageway from 35th to
40th Streets outside of fare control. When you hoofed telegrams and
the weather was foul & nasty, nice to duck under the street. Wasn't
no such thingie as bicycle messenger on 18 speed bikes those years. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Sparky, in 1986, when I started to work in the area it was all behind fare control. Then when they remodeled the station in the early 90s they made it all free again and eventually closed it. I don't doubt you recollection, maybe they changed it more than once?
Peace,
ANDEE
Those doors are really open a lot? Would you say they are open more often than not? Because I go past there on avg of once a week, usually around lunchtime, and I've never seen them open until today.
---Brian
Well it depends on whatever work they are doing in the station. I notice that the escalator/elevator people keep a lot of stuff in there.
Peace,
ANDEE
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
if anyone can get photos please pass them along...
I will try. And no, the LIRR/Metro North rate hikes will not backfire.
There's also Gimbel's alley. I wonder if it still exists. Anyway, it ran in the old Gimbel's Dept Store basement along 34th St, into the Penn Station region (this was outside the paid area).
Yes, it STILL exists. It is my dream to one day walk in there and get photos of it.
---Brian
Funny the way old memories come back at the oddest times. I was thinking about an incident that happened some years back in Connecticut, where I was living at the time. This skinny little twerp was in a somewhat disreputable nightclub, and in a fairly advanced state of intoxication, when he took offense at something this big muscular dude said. Now, the skinny twerp had studied some martial arts at a local McDojo and considered himself sort of an American reincarnation of Bruce Lee. Helped along by a strong dose of Dutch courage, he went after the big muscular dude with fists flying.
You can figure out what happened next. Thoroughly battered and bloodied, not to mention humiliated, the skinny little twerp dragged himself out of the nightclub - only to return with a pistol, intent on settling scores. As it turned out, the big dude who'd worked him over had left. Not one to give up easily, however, the skinny little twerp decided to find other targets. He fatally shot three people who'd had nothing to do with the earlier brawl, in fact two of them hadn't even been in the nightclub at the time.
Consider what happened to the United States on 9/11. If this was the first battle in the war on terrorism, the United States suffered a crushing defeat. 19 towel heads with boxcutters were able to exterminate nearly 3,000 people and basically change the course of history. Now don't get me wrong, there has been excellent progress in destroying the real enemy; as I've said before, I'm convinced that al-Qaeda has been largely destroyed.
Unfortunately, the U.S. government doesn't want to claim victory. We've therefore seen a huge crackdown on civil liberties and human rights, all in the name of "national security." And like the aftermath of the nightclub brawl, this crackdown has victimized millions of people who had not the slightest iota of responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. They include innocent air travelers browbeaten by TSA thugs, hard-working, tax-paying immigrants hauled off into INS detention on absurd technicalities, businesses dependent on cross-border trade seeing vital shipments languish at customs, and many others.
And yes, railfans have suffered mightily. If we dare stop and take pictures or write down car numbers, we're likely to be pounced upon by overpaid cops with nothing better to do. A harmless, innocent pastime is now considered a dangerously subversive activity. Maybe it's because railfanning has long been considered somewhat quirky, an activity most people just don't "get." Whatever the cause, railfans are like those hapless nightclub patrons, caught in the crossfire of a shooter - or a government - that can't accept defeat and is looking to make someone suffer. What a disgrace.
TRANSIT PROJECT UPDATE
Posted by Xtrainexp. on Mon Mar 24 10:59:50 2003
Anybody remember this thread?
"I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metoropolitan areas atlases. Suffice to say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and I have used all the letters, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routings, names of lines and route markers, leave your repsonses/questions here and I'll answer them as thoroughly as I can."
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
I'd like to see the plan.
As would I, do we need to email you or something?
Include me too!
You got it!
You can if you want to, the address is dlamond27@yahoo.com.
Weren't one of the subtalkers who received my earlier version of this project back in January 2002, when I began emailing the drafts?
At the end of the April I'll send out the emails of what I've done, which is Chapters 1, 2, 3 and 5. Hopefully Chapter 4 would be ready by then too.
It sounds very interesting, even better than mine or Elias's. I would love to hear more about it!
You will like it. I will sound weird and unusual, but I can guarantee you that it is an interesting and fun read.
I know all about Elias' plans, he has some very good ideas about routing subway lines.
I haven't heard anything about your ideas. You're welcome to share them with me if you like.
Today, on the Dyre Ave test track and within the Unionport Yard I noticed 2 sets of R142's with odd #'s
1121-22-23-24-25
&
1116-17-18-19-20
Huh? I thought all R142's will have numbers starting at 6301 up.
No, see the delivery notes at the bottome of the page as updated by our webmaster. There will be approx. 12-14 train sets of series 11xx to 12xx R142A cars assigned to the #4 line.
Why is this change needed?
You took the words right outta my mouth. To differentiate between 180th St's and Woodlawn's R142's?
I always thought the #4's R142's were coming from Kawasaki.
R142A's (car #'s 7660 to 77xx are assigned to Jerome yard on the #4 line. And when you see them in action on the #4 line, they look soooo FILTHY as HELL. Guess they need a car wash and a hlaf.
Probably. At 239 yard we differentiate by the 5 line having 6700 and up (or was it 6800, I forget), but its not a big deal since 239 Yard services both lines. However, it would probably make a mess if somehow a #4 R142 ended up at 239 or a #5 at Mosholu after a GO, so they probably need a wider gap between the #'s to tell the difference. It may be possible that the higher numbered 142s will go 239 or the East once the #4 has all of its lower numbered trainsets.
I rode my first Bombardier R142 on the 4 this past weekend. It had been borrowed from the 5, but it is a sign of what's to come. I also saw Bombardier R142s in the 7100s signed up as 4's being tested in simulated service. They're coming...
Have you read today's Destination:Freedom (Click then scroll down to the March 24 link)? Index below.
Destination:Freedom Newsletter
Destination:Freedom
The Newsletter of the National Corridors Initiative, Inc.
Vol. 4 No. 12, March 24, 2003
Copyright © 2002, NCI, Inc.
President and CEO - Jim RePass
Publisher - James Furlong
Editor - Leo King
A weekly North American rail and transit update
* The National Corridors Initiative’s 2003 Conference
* NCI prepares for ‘Rail Futures’ conference; first Phillips Journalism Award to be given
* U.S. rails remain on high alert
* Wayne O. Burkes resigns from STB
* Lawmakers say they’ll include rail in forthcoming transit legislation
* Senate passes Amtrak budget bill
* Amtrak makes a national ‘platform day’
* Piedmont halted while NS resurfaces tracks
* ‘Travelports’ would knit nation together
* Amtrak won’t help fund a station renewal
* Seven bidders for two Maine rail lines
* Kansas House moves toward rail tax break
* Commuter lines…
* Boston to put Bredas back on track
* Pennsylvania vies for maglev line
* Texas, UP chat over commuter rail
* FTA gives Norfolk a red light
* APTA Highlights…
* House T & I Leadership Outlines Revenue Plan for TEA 21 Reauthorization
* Mineta: Challenges ‘Will Affect Transit for Decades’
* Population Center Focuses on Demographic Issues in Reauthorization Debate
* Gee Promoted to General Manager at TARTA
* Transit on ‘Radar Screen’ of Conservatives
* Partners Stress Unity in Reaching Reauthorization Goals
* Freight lines…
* CN speeds up customs logjams
* Norfolk Southern publishes annual report
* AAR: Freight totals up from last year
* Opinion…
* Does the new highway-transit bill really fix the problem?
* Business lines…
* Bombardier cuts 665 aircraft jobs
* Selected Friday closing quotes…
* The way we were...
* End notes...
Cool! Thanks for that!
---Brian
Where was this picture taken?
168th Street.
168 Street wasn't a residental area. Looks more like Lefferts Blvd to me.
It's definatley 168th Street.
I still say Lefferts Blvd. But I'll call it a draw. I'm not the mood to get into an arguement. At least it's not 76 Street ;-)
PROFF it's 168th:
- BMT standards would have never been seen at Lefferts, as the line between Hudson St and Hinsdale St couldn't support them. They used C types right up to the IND takeover.
- Lefferts Blvd curves noticably. This station is straight, like 168th.
- It's a story about the R16's on the #15/J. Why would the newspaper show Lefferts Blvd?
My Proff:
-The building on the left looks like an apartment over stores I see at Lefferts. Did 168 St have apartments over the stores at the time?
-The platform at Lefferts does curve a bit. But it's a poor picture and there is fuzziness in the background of this picture.
-Alot of times there are pictures shown that are not correct about the location.
For the sake of avoiding an arguement, I'll concede and let it go.
-The building on the left looks like an apartment over stores I see at Lefferts. Did 168 St have apartments over the stores at the time?
Yes.
Plus the BMT standards never ran on the A. Not too many things could stop those cars: neither snow (unless it was a blizzard of 1888-proportions), nor rain, nor heat, nor gloom of night...
One thing did stop them: the 1970's.
Were the Standards retired because of their age, or did they have problems?
Well, age brings problems. I've heard some stories from fellow subtalkers who rode them in their final months, and they were clearly on life support. Given that they lasted 45-50 years without proper maintenance (except for the 300+ that were overhauled in the late 50's), i'd say their careers were spectacular.
They had loads of problems with ... well, with loads in their final days running the 14th St. tunnel on the LL. If you started walking from the east end of the 8th Ave. bound platform when a Standard was entering the First Ave. station during AM rush hours, you could probably get at least to the third car from the front by the time the doors opened due to the age of the4 motors (and I'd imagine the same thing was true of any Brooklyn-bound Standards climbing the Willie B out of Essex St. in their final days as well, but I never rode one of those).
The seat arrangment was neat, and the buttons in-between the doors were cool, even if they didn't do anything. But for a 10-year-old who wanted his subway cars to be fast, I preferred the walk over to 23rd St. and Park Ave. S. for the 6 and its speedy (well, it seemed that way) R-17 and R-33/36 cars over those slow Standards on the Canarsie line.
'
One thing I always wondered was who calculated that two 140-hp motors would suffice to get a 95,000+ lb subway car rolling. If there was a subway car that would have benefitted from beefier motors, it was the BMT standard.
The 14th St. tunnel was a bit of an adventure. From a full head of steam at the lowest point at G# above middle C, their gear pitch would get lower and lower until it was down to a half step, high or low, within middle C by the time the train would reach Bedford Ave. or First Ave. Otherwise, it would be: everybody out and push!
And when when the Standards finally did get where they were going -- Eighth Ave. -- they let out enough air from the breaks to sound like they just finished running the New York City Marathon or needed an asthma inhaler. But they were still fun to ride on, since by the time I remembered them in the mid-60s, there were no other cars this side of the Myrtle or Third Ave. els that were as unique in their exterior design and interior layout as the ABs (which is why kids who are 6-12 years old right now and riding the subway are probably going to recall the Redbirds and their non-silver bodies and thick AC unit interior support poles in the same fashion sometime around the year 2040).
The standards may have been better insulated than the R-1/9s. The first time I rode on them I thought, they sound the same as the R-1/9s when accelerating (moaning and groaning). Of course, BMT roadbeds had ballasted track instead of ties in concrete as on the IND, which may have soaked up some of the gear noise.
^^^"- BMT standards would have never been seen at Lefferts, as the line between Hudson St and Hinsdale St couldn't support them. They used C types right up to the IND takeover."^^^
Standards, NO but besides the Ugly Duckling 'C' types at Lefferts Blvd. you may find BUs [Lexington~Fulton] or MS [13 14th Street ~Fulton].
Chris, I know by the time the R-16s arrived the Lexington Avenue EL
in Brooklyn was history and the 13 14th service may have been terminated.
I's being cutzie. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Nah, that's 76th Street before they buried it. :)
168th St was always a favorite station of mine when it snowed.
Unfortunately, I never saw that much snow there in my time.
Was that by any chance the 1966 blizzard?
Pic's not dated. It does state the BMT cars are "47 years old". 1966-47=1919. It's possible.
That pic sure made me homesick for 168th St.
It sure must have been some storm to put snow like that on roofed over platforms.
Thanks for the photo! I think I remember that day - it was in January, 1964. I rode one of the BMT standards from Sutphin Blvd. to Broadway Junction, then an R-9 "E" to Far Rockaway & back. Returning to 111 St (my home station) I did get an R-16, but there were a couple of car inspectors on it carrying a lot of fuses with them - I guess to keep the train moving!
I would guess a railfan wrote that cutline. If it was 1964, then the 47-year age for the Standards would be just about right, while the age of the R-16s by 1964 would be something only remembered by transit buffs (most people today can tell you ther R-142s or R-143s are new, but they probably couldn't pin down the ages of an R-62, R-44 or any other class of car very well).
History repeated itself during last month's blizzard. The several R42 consists on the L ran just fine, the R143's were dropping like flies, as were the R142's in the Bronx.
For those on this board who comment that the BMT Standards were ugly, slow, etc can now eat your words.
When the snowing gets tough, the Standards get going !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the kind words about our beloved ABs. Any class of cars that first enters service in 1914 and does their final run in 1969 has to be exceptional. Not only could they run through blizzards, what other class of cars does anyone know of, that were pulled off the scrap line, had the "S" painted over, to rescue a class of cars (R1/9) that was failing in droves?
Yep, our ABs had a great interior layout, unique outside appearance, and ran like tops for over 50 years. A special mention should be made of Fred's D-types; the same great features and a durability that was legendary!
Hot Lunch!
Furthermore, the R1-9's pre-Crystie did not often go outside, and they still were junk. My last ride on a Standard was an AM rush reverse-peak JJ about 8am from Woodhaven Blvd to 121st Steet to elemenetary school. About 1 consist a day was converted from Standard to R9 that spring.
It isn't surprising that the R-16s poor snow performance made the news. They were known for poor performance in the snow from the beginning and since it might have been a slow day for the news, they decided to do a story on the R-16s miserable performance in the snow.
#3 West End Jeff
If memory serves, then just recently there were stories on the poor snow performance of the R-142 and R-143 trains. An R-16 repeat in the making?
There were also reports on the new LIRR equipment having snow troubles.
I just posted that thought before I got to this one. The R143's were not only bad in snow, but individual trouble-making cars in the consist require cutting out cars in groups of 4.
R16's indeed performed poorly in the snow. They also performed poorly in the sun, in the rain, during the day, during the night, Monday thru Friday, Saturday and Sunday too. Be it 95 degrees or -2 degrees. They performed poorly no matter what. Whenever I operated an R16 conssit, it was a miracle if I made it from one end of the line to the other without going out of service.
Was this in the 70's?
In the '80's while they were assigned to the M.
A bit of clarification. I operated them in the 80's. In the 70's I rode them on the GG to/from high school. I also rode them in the mid 60's on the #16 Canarise line coming home from Brighton Beach from Union Sq. In the PM rush they used one trainset for one trip. I rode it often. Following that trip, they cut the train up at Canarsie Yard and used the cars for the garbage train horses. Appropriate. Garbage hauling garbage.
I believe you, but prior to Crystie, and it didn't snow, I never had a problem with them on the 14 & 15, and noticed no improvement in speed and running time when the R27's came in en-masse in December 1967.
Yikes. I remember those days. Doing 5 MPH up the Williamsburgh Bridge due to dead motors. Getting dusted by N & R trains running local from Pacific to 36th as you cough and belch down the express tracks (as B trains backed up behind you). The mass exodus of M riders at Myrtle Ave to ride the red R30's, which had a much better chance of making it to Broad Street without dying.
The good old days {sigh} ....
What was the major problem with the R16? Was it the bad propulsion system that had them bad in the snow along with the door motors?
In later years, their controllers tended to short out. IIRC the 6400-series cars were worse than the 6300s.
The R-16s might as well have been the "Lemons" of the entire subway fleet at the time. Perhaps the R-44/R-46s were BETTER!! than the R-16s. The only way it seemed that the R-16 performed well is when it was STANDING STILL!!
#3 West End Jeff
When did the "Steels" receive sealed beams. Someone said the photo at 168th Street was made around 1966. If memory serves me well, in 1966 the "Steels" had already received sealed beams. Maybe the photo is older.
Bob
That's a great point. I wonder if the ones which got rebuilt (2400's and up) received sealed beams at that time.
The ones that ran on the Canarsie in their twilight years had headlights.
What are sealed beams?
Headlights!
Oh. LOL. Duh.
That post suggests that the shortest distance between stations is 1/3 mile on the Paris system.
I have to believe that these are closer than 1/3 mile apart:
14th/18th - west side IRT local
Fulton/Wall - east side IRT
Beverly/Cortelyou - Brighton BMT local
I think he said, it's the average distance between stations is lowest in Paris (the number was derived by dividing route miles by stations). But if you've ever been to Paris, the arched tunnels make it easy to notice the next station just down the tracks from yours...
Same on Montreal's Metro (must be a FRENCH thing).
(Same on Montreal's Metro (must be a FRENCH thing).)
What about Chicago, where there is just one long platform for 3 stations, very closely spaced? I suppose they used to be French there, but that was before they built the subway.
"What about Chicago, where there is just one long platform for 3 stations, very closely spaced?"
Okay, yeah, I'm convinced. That's it. You can't get stations any closer than being on the same platform! That's a very interesting design. Reminds me a little of Heinleins' THE ROADS MUST ROLL. Or going beyond that, imagine an entire subway system built that way! Continous platforms along all tracks. Street exits every two or three blocks. Why, it could be a MoleMan city!
I forget, can you walk between stations on that stretch? Or are there gates or somesuch between stations?
Unless they've changed the platforms since I lived there (1978), you can walk it... I've done it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well shoot. For that matter, you can see Massapequa from Massapequa Park LIRR station quite easily. It looks like it's just a couple of blocks away....both staions being on the elevated embankment parallel to Sunrise Hwy. No big deal, just seems unusually close for a commuter rail line.
How do you measure this? Distance between closest station exits? Distance between platform midpoints?
I would think that when taking the average distance like I did (route miles over # of stations), you would have to assume each station is a single point. The assumption would have to be made that every platform is of equal length. It would be too difficult to subtract the length of each platform for distance between the platforms. So platform midpoints is what I used. There is definitely a margin of error since some subways don't have equal length platforms everywhere, again it's just too diffcult to find every platform length for every subway system to find the real answer. For NYCT, I guess you could just do each divsion seperately and average the three results.
How do you determine the midpoint of a station? It's not necessarily the street the station is named after -- I'd go so far as to say that it usually isn't. The Lexington Avenue station on the E/V, for instance, has its west end somewhat east of Lex, but its east end extends past 3rd.
Are you working from a detailed map?
The midpoint of the platform, it doesn't matter what is above ground. Like I said before, all I did was take the route miles and divide it by the number of stations, both of which can be found without a map. This way automatically assumes that every station is a single point located at the center of a platform. Read my previous post again as to why this method has some flaws, but for the most part is close enough for our purposes.
I meant average station spacing, hence why I wrote "shortest average distance between stations"
Beverly/Courtelyou might actually be the shortest distance between two stations in the entire system. The train doesn't pick up a great deal of speed between these two stations. 1,200 feet might be the total distance the train covers between these two stations.
#3 West End Jeff
Did this enclosed walkway exist all the way to 1969? I had always heard that the transfer existed only as a paper transfer, requiring a walk down to the street:
In early 1969 I did the transfer, and it was definitely paper-based. You had to get a transfer at Bway Nassau, and then hand it to get onto the Myrtle Ave El for free. I don't remember any details of the walk between Jay St and Myrtle, though, but I do remember getting the transfer at Bway Nassau.
Yes, I recall and used the paper transfer. I do not remember the walkway, but I do not remember goind outside either. I must have ridden on the line in '66 or maybe '65.
Those trolley tracks sure as little fish were NOT there!
: ) Elias
It probably looked more like this. No walkway:
The 2nd photo seems to have been taken about 1969-1970 after the Myrtle Ave El closed.
The picture at the beginning of the thread was taken about 1945. After the El to Sands St and Park Row was torn down.
Look closely at the photo and notice that the A train entrance is at the lower right. So the walkway was really irrelevant if it lasted to the end of the Myrtle El. Its only purpose was to allow people to walk across Jay Street to the west sidewalk. The transfer between the Myrtle El and the A train was always by paper, and could only be obtained between Sumner Ave. and Navy St. (Manhattan -bound) and Broadway-Nassau (Brooklyn-bound).
In view of the fact that the photo is dated 1945, the walkway preceeded the building of the Transit Authority headquaters (1950)and was probably a part of the structure that survived after the cut back. The TA building would be built behind the photographer and to his right.
Bob
It was not there in 1969.
That multi story building in the background was a razor blade company that Brooklyn Polytech took over. It was my first school in NYC. I was there in the mid 60s. The Myrtle & Qs were there, but not the walkway.
Well. I came to that neighborhood around 1989 (long after the Myrtle El was gone). I was a daily user of the Jay Street-Borough Hall. In the two years I spent there, it changed so much. Each morning I would stop for a coffee or something at a little deli that was in that building where "Burke's" is in the old photo. I watched as they completely restored that little building with new windows, and they washed the bricks, and re-cemented the joints. Then about six months later it was abandoned.......and they were tearing the whole block facing Myrtle down....and along came MetroTech.
That spot today is so unrecognizable from around 1990. However that old photo from 1942 looks just like I remembered it in 1989 (minus the el of course).
Cool pic. My dad lived in an apartment during the summer of 1972 at that intersection (possibly the building on the right). The El was gone by then, but a couple times when I stayed with him I was treated to the site of lots of buses on the B54, which I could see from the second story window. In fact that was where I saw a GM Old Look for the last time.
Would you get on this ugly beast?
I thought it failed from lack of ridership! :)
Isn't that one of the cleaner trains of the 70's?
Is it me or does the headlight on the right look higher? It appears to be aligned horizontally with the light on the left, but given the bank of the train, it should be lower. Dang photographic illusions.
R9's were even ugly in fresh paint, and they were interlopers and villains on the Eastern Division for bumping off the Standards.
Back in 1969, I thought the R-7/9s were a breath of fresh air on the Canarsie. I didn't like the standards back then, so anything else was a step in the right direction as far as I was concerned.
Just remember the IND Jamiaca yard crisis of 1966. It was the Southern Division Standards off the scrap line no less that replaced some of the R-1's (thru equipment cascade of some R16's to the GG).
What about this crisis? What precipotated it? Are you saying that there were standards on the Queens Boulevard line?
The crisis was all the unusable R1/9's assigned to Jamaica Yard. Mostly for dead motors. The R38's were originally supposed to go to the Concourse D (pre Chrystie St.). Instead they wound up in Jamaica to help the car shortage. Some R1/9's assigned to the Eastern Divison were sent back to Queens and the standards were reactivated for the Canarsie line. I heard that the TA already sold the Standards to the scrapper but while laid up on the Sea Beach line. Then the R1/9 crisis occurred. The TA had to buy/lease the Standards from the scrapper!
Wow! That just serves as amazing testament to those BMT Standards. I'm much too young to have ever rode one in service, but I can't help but admire something so long-lasting and reliable.
I wonder if the R-32 will break the longevity record presumably set by the standards.
It's a safe bet the R-32s will make a run at the BMT standards for fleet longevity. The record for longevity of a subway fleet is still held by the Gibbs Hi-Vs. Virtually all of them remained in service for 50 years. OTOH very few BMT standards made it to 50 years on an individual basis. I figure 47 years is a good average for any given BMT standard. The earlier, unrebuilt units began to depart from the scene by the early 60s as the R-27/30s arrived.
While I hadn't yet arrived on the New York scene in 1966 - that was our last full year in Indiana - I am well aware of the Jamaica Yard Crisis. R-1/9s were dropping like flies, forcing some draconian measures to keep the show going. St. Louis Car Co. was on strike and R-38 deliveries were slow. 20 of them were on the property and were quickly pressed into service, with one trainset on the E and one on the F. Then 32 R-16s were borrowed from the Eastern Division and fitted with GG signs. The ripple effect continued as a group of condemned BMT standards were pulled off the scrapline in a last-minute reprieve and sent back to revenue service - with the S for Scrap painted over on their sides.
There were no R1-9's on the Eastern Divison until 1968. About 40 Standards were pulled off the scrap line and sent to the Eastern Divison, and about 40-48 R16's went to the GG.
You're okay, Tony...the headlights are NOT level with each other...
Damn, that R9 makes the R16's in their worst shape look like Pullman cars!
Gotta get you to Branford one of these days to see an Arnine in decent shape. I still think that KK train looked better with the graf on it than repainted in the "war between the states" color scheme. :)
If it gets me to and from work at a good time, doesn't break down alot and lets me have a seat or a railfan window, YES!
The KK (later K) died from lack of ridership. In the 70s and 80s even the R32s and R44s were festooned with ugly graffiti - there was no way to escape it.
The KK/K was first truncated from 168/Jamaica to Eastern Parkway because no one wanted to ride to midtown from Jamaica via the Willy B. The E and F, despite their overcrowding, were indeed a faster trip to midtown. During the period the K ran only to/from Eastern Parkway population losses along the Broadway El corridor impacted potential ridership.
BTW, when did the K last run? Was it 1976?
yeah....it failed because the T.A failed to make the service attractive. Those same R units ran on the Q.B lines for years and they were replaced... the same could have been done for the Eastern division lines if the efforts were made.But... the Eastern division has always been the stepchild of the TA. As far as I can tell,they would've rather replace the whols thing with a bus line...
Every once and a while, there would be a train of R-40M/R-42 KKs that would be put in on the run, as part of the very limited fleet of AC cars East New York was given in 1969.
The problem was so much the AM rush for the regular R-7/9 fleet (or even the surviving BMT Standards that showed up on the KK in its earliest days) -- people coming from Jamaica Ave. or B'way in Brooklyn were pretty much used to the crappy hand-me-down equipment on the Eastern Division, so the fleet the KK ran wasn't any different from what the QJ, M or the LL had. The problem was in the PM rush, the E and the F heading out to Kew Gardens and Jamaica/Hillside were mostly brand-new R-38/40/42 cars in the early 1970s, and about 40 percent of the fleet was air-conditioned, while both the B and the D also had new cars by then, though the occassional R-4 would lumber into the station on its way to Brighton Beach or 205th-Concourse.
Compared to those cars, the KK looked particularly unappealing to midtown riders, especially those headed out to central or east Queens on the way home who had the option to take the F uptown or the KK downtown to get to their destination, and chose the former by a huge margin (though I still think if they had dumped the JJ Broad St.-Canarsie concept from the 1967 route system and run the KK as Sixth Ave.-B'way Bklyn local to Canarsie starting in 1968, it would have had a chance of attracting a solid core of riders).
"Compared to those cars, the KK looked particularly unappealing to midtown riders..."
Well, I remember taking the KK in the `70s from Williamsburg. It wasn't a pretty train but it sure was good to be able to go to midtown from the neighborhood without transfer.
Did R-27/R-30s ever run on the KK/K? I've never seen a pic of one on that line.
yep... seen em and rode em.they weren't there too often,nor was the R42'S.
Two other anamolies:
1) A STandard once ran on the KK to 57th Street even though they were officially confined to the Myrtle-Broad and Canatsie lines.
2) If there was a bad delay on the F, the TA would steal a KK consist at 57th Street and run it to Coney Island on the F route
so that would answer alot of question why it didnt work,and the huge service gaps on some days... crazy headways...they were stealing trains for F service.Well up know what? I think that sucks... and waiting 20 minutes for a KK/K train during the rush was a real b***h.
Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) once rode on a KK of BMT standards on the IND. He says it was signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn local.
Yes but seldom. There was a problem in displaying 57th Street on the south sign. The one time I saw one was a 6 car train of 4 R27's and 2 R42's, and most signs were blanked out.
The R-27/30s had both 168th St. Jamaica and 57th St. signs, but they were on the same roller curtain. On the R-1/9s, they were on separate curtains.
The answer is "yes" ... on a few occasions, I met up with one or two while on a D on 6th Avenue ... they were RARE though.
Not on the KK, but I proudly climbed up and down Arnines twice or more a day when I ran 'em ... and many looked JUST like that set.
From what people can recall about the old KK train, and from what I can remember:
1. Jamaica residents working in Midtown preferred the speed and more frequent service of the E and F trains. Larry Redbird, do you have the original time frequencies of the KK??
2. Jamaica residents also did notlike the sloww KK ride thru the Bway Bklyn segment. The neighborhood was in a decline starting about the mid-60's.
3. I can also recall some KK's during the PM rush hr. being sent down the Culver line when there were big gaps in F service.
Tony
Passengers rode the same cars on the LL and that line never failed. The KK failed because passengers are creatures of habit and did not want to change their riding patterns. With so much service on the F vs. the KK, passengers continued changing trains at Essex/Delancey if they happened not to already be riding a KK.
Not a smart question to ask a bunch of railfans. Just like when those "new-fangled" light rail cars took the place of the PCC's on the Newark City Subway, NEW does not always mean BETTER!
Hey, I'd like to get on that train myself (don't ever remember riding an R7/R9). But if it was 1976, wouldn't you be revolted at the condition of that train?
Everything looked like that back then. I'm actually amazed that the Krylon "stuck" to the textured sides of the cars. :)
Heck, I was about 6 at the time and LOVED riding the pre-war IND cars. Gosh, to see those blade fans spinning (sometimes at varying speeds), to hear the motors groaning during acceleration, and that odd electric smell they had--not to mention the straw seats!!!!!!!! Aaaah, memories of the F train circa 1975!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tony
Amen, and Amen ... only reason some of the fans were slower was that SOME of them didn't get their daily drink of oil in the collar. One of the RCI's I knew would carry a jug of oil with him on the road for those, and I'd often help out during layover pouring a fresh "drink" into the collar for them ... it was like watering plants to me, yet another of those BIZARRE reasons why I loved WORKING them when I did my short TA stint.
JUST like watering plants. How many subway cars can people think of today that you had to give the fans on the ceiling line a DRINK, like a PET? Not the cold, sterile "operating rooms" ... back in MY day, subway cars were *MACHINES* and you had to MERGE with them, mono a mano. If you and your machine could "feel each other out" and become one, things went rather smoothly. And yes, they had TEMPERMENTS too. They were almost LIVING creatures. Try THAT with the newer stuff.
Ghad, how I loved the Arnines ... :)
whoa...thats fairly deep.... fella... sounds like a love afair that didnt quite work out[lol]..i kinda liked em myself... but not that much....lol.[you know i gotta mess witcha on this,dontcha?]
They were NICE cars to work ... and if you knew HOW, you could fix ANY problem they had. And if you didn't put them into breaker-popping land (motor overloads tended to trip out WAY before you hit max amps) they'd get you there. Branford's 1689 brought ALL the sweetness back.
And no, I don't mind ya busting my cojones ... hell, I'd have to CARE first. At my age, ego is the FIRST thing to qwap out ... heh.
LOL...I hear what your sayin... I was around[meaning living in Brooklyn near the Broadway EL]when it was running,and when it went kaput. The first week end the 27/30 were on the M,AND ALL THE R 1/9 were placed on the J and L lines.it stayed like that for over a year...I realy hated the M train for some reason then...hey, I was a kid!! what did I know?I still dont like it... but thats because it took away my favorite line...QJ!!OH well.... that was wayyyy back then,and service never recovered since. But the R1/9 cars are my childhood favorites,and I will fondly remember them always. so i cant bust on ya too much.... [but you did sound weird there for a min...lol]
My fave on the eastern division was the mighty MJ with its Q cars. Alas, once they took that out it wasn't as much of a thrill as it had been. Then again, I got out to 168th many times prior to THAT going away and recently been out on Unca Dougie's SECONDARY favorite, to Rockaway Parkway ... of course when *I* rode it often, 105/Turnbull still had the grade crossing ... yeah, they screwed with THAT line too.
This may sound like a dumb question, but how does one overload a motor on a low-voltage car? The R-1/9s were, after all, Lo-V cars.
I'm sure Train Dude can back me up on this - he joined the hammer squad while the Arnines were still out there ...
I also noticed the change in tunnel acoustics on Manhattan-bound Canarsie trains as the train passed from the deep bore tunnel portion to the cut-and-cover portion just east of First Ave.
wayne
avid
The R-7/9s always did have that smell like they had just come from a visit to one of the Jersey refinerines. At least now I know why the daily oil smell was so fresh.
I liked them in their original colors, hated them in their Ronanized final look on the Eastern Division (including, of course, the KK), and can still have painful flashbacks of sitting down too quickly on those fiberglass panels that replaced the old rattan or red vinyl stuff. Jeez, those things could make you long for the comfort of a Slant 40 seat...
That smell also came from the truck journals. Since they had dry friction journals, the R-1/9s needed to be lubed down there as well. A funny thing, I don't ever recall seeing blue smoke around those cars.
wayne
Yep, with all the throbbing, snarling, and hissing they emitted, you got the feeling they were living and breathing. And I didn't even get to the moans, groans, and grunts.:)
Just wanted to add (and this IS perverse) ... to ME, the Arnines were "Missus Robinson" ... the "forbidden love of an older, more experienced woman" when I was 19/20 and worked for the TA ... these old gals were SWEETIES if you treated them right ... and knew HOW to "pet them" just right. All of us have told stories of horror in Arnines and how unreliable they'd become. But ya know? Sometimes if you KNEW where they hurt, you could go back and reset a breaker, climb down and give a hose a tug, or pull a door home and they'd love you all the way back to layup?
I had a few BAD experiences with Arnines, but having done them for nearly a year, very FEW of them ever let me down if I was willing to back off and LISTEN to what my train was telling me ... computers today make that experience (nearly God-like and VERY sexual) somehow ... CHEAP.
Any RCI (Yo, Train DUDE!) can tell you that aside from when they'd throw a literal hissy-fit or bust a wheel, they were truly TROOPERS on the road if they had any motors left. :)
was good to hear from a guy like yourself who not only has common sense but BRAINS as well!! CC
Thank ya! I really DID love the Arnines, and they loved me back. Aside from the BIATCH that killed my MTA career when she decided to release when I pumped her air. But then again, I got MUCH better when I left the MTA. And I'm sure there's OTHER ex-TA folks who would agree who lurk here as well. MTA's a steady check, but your sphincter muscle can only take SO much for WHAT the Eagle sheet. Word. :)
Now I KNOW 1689 was happy to see you again last fall.:)
I still would have loved to have been on a D train with you as the conductor. Probably would have snickered for the whole ride.:)
I say if Nancy likes door chime sounds, that's cool. I like them as long as they're in tune with each other on any given train. Otherwise, it's ay-ay-ay, oi gevalt! My fillings!:)
Did you say you two have been married almost 25 years?
Would a pair of regular old chimes pitched in E-C suffice?:)
To me, it's memories of the D train circa 1967.
Do you have 1967 memories of the D via Culver or Brighton???? Tony
Coming back, we took the BMT - first on an N to 59th St., then an RR the rest of the way to Times Square. I have no idea why my folks decided to dump that N train when we did. We could have taken it all the way to Times Square and over the bridge to boot. I sat across from one of the sets of doors on that R-27/30 RR and was transfixed as they open and closed at each stop. That N train was an R-32 consist, and I was curious if their doors were dark blue on the outside. There was a train of R-32s next to our train at Stillwell Ave., and naturally its doors were dark blue on the outside. I watched our N train leave after we got off and sure enough, its doors were dark blue.
Nah! I was 16 years old at the time, and I sort of had a feeling they weren't long for the world. To me, they were 100% more interesting than the R27-R30's (no offense!) that ran on the local track outside the window of my school (Edward R. Murrow H.S.) at the time.
When I resumed riding on the subway semi-regularly in 1977 after several years of once-in-a-blue-moon riding, I was repulsed by all the graffiti. Not that I ever felt threatened, but it made things seem very depressing.
In a New York minute, you betcha!!
--Mark
Hell, if there were still any of them ready to roll, I'd bring down my handles and keys and ask if I could RUN one. :)
Signed up as a D, of course.:)
Hand me a cheat sheet, and I'll roll them ANYWHERE. Although, if the opportunity presented itself, I'm sure they wouldn't let me get beyond track 1 or 2 on the outer loop and into revenue trackage. But as to how it's signed up, I'll let my conductor worry about that. :)
Good! The A train it is!:)
I live and work in Williamsburg, and am partly responsable for the Southside's resurgance. But everyone still prefers the L over the J/M. Methinks a 1 seat ride to midtown from anywhere between Myrtle and the bridge would have a lot of ridership. Dunno anything about what Queens residents would do.
"But everyone still prefers the L over the J/M..."
Well, sure, if you live near the Bedford Avenue stop or in Greenpoint. But south of that, it's the Broadway Brooklyn line or the GG, `scuse me, the G line. I think the failure of the KK train had alot to do with timing. When it ran, Williamsburg was nowhere near being "re-surged". Amazingly, to me anyway, Broadway has never had the spotlight given to the Queens Boulevard lines. So any innovations in scheduling were less glamorous, affecting the Brooklyn neighborhoods specifically. Once you got over the Williamsburg, the F connection was uppermost in riders mindset.
When it ran, I rode it.
My point is this: I'll tell people that where we're going is 2 blocks from the M, and a 10 min walk from the L, and they'll ask me for directions from the L. If B'way had better, more frequent service, and a one seat ride to midtown, these people would use the service. Which would continue to revitalize, which would require even better service....ect.
I think a lot of that is the mystique of the subway versus the elevated. Or some "refined" folk might object to being exposed to THE ACTUAL ELEMENTS! such as waiting outdoors for your train, open to the world and the sky. This freaks them out. The car culture has only accelerated the willingness for people to avoid close contact with strangers. This is a trend that has made the car so necessary for most people. "I ain't gettin' on no train wit' those smelly barstids!!" Maybe since a subway offers nothing to see but the interior of the train and tunnel lights flashing by outside, it helps modern folk to endure the trip. An elevated train hides nothing. You get to see the actual conditions of the neighborhoods you travel through. On one level I can appreciate the apparent modernity a subway has; it seems to offer a more streamlined ride, swooshing underground to your destination. And since Manhattan has only subway lines, there is probably a feeling of closer association with the Big Town with a tunnel train. The el, OTOH, has a more old-fashioned legacy.
I happen to like both modes. But there are times, on crisp clear days, or better still, nights, when the experience of waiting for your rapid transit is so much better above ground. The sounds of the neighborhood drifting up to your platform, the brisk wind keeping your head clear and alert, observing the nearby streets and buildings....sure, it can get bitterly cold on those platforms. But hell, what are we as a species? A bunch of mollycoddles seeking only the most optimum of conditions for every endeavor we undertake? I say, it's good for us to freeze a little, waiting for that train. Think of how good the warm car feels once it arrives!
Screw the muted greys of "comfortable everywhere, everywhen!!
Don't get me wrong, I really believe the Broadway el should have one service that goes to midtown, but in it's current form, the L is faster than the M (from downtown). If you are at Chambers Street, and you have a choice of a direct M to Myrtle-Wyckoff and a 4-5/L combo to Myrtle-Wyckoff, most of the time within a few minutes, the person who takes the 4-5/L will get there faster. Personally, I prefer the outdoor M option, because psychologically, the L seems very drawn out between Union Square and Myrtle, and seems longer.
The real answer is to combine the C or the V with the M.
...or run the V to Canarsie in the futurem which would also free up with J/Z for peak direction rush hour service from B'way Junction to Marcy (that wouldn't help the new residents of Williamsburgh directly, but it would benefit the other riders further to the east who are looking for eiither a faster ride downtown or a one-seat ride from southeast Brooklyn to midtown).
BTW those K's are showing the after-effects of graffitti removal. It didn't work too well on those cars.
wayne
Just read the monthly ridership report for December today. It said that annual ridership was over 1.4 billion, and up slightly from last year. It also said that this was the highest ridership since 1953.
Year ring a bell? That's the year the TA took over for the Board of Transportation, in June. So that means that 2002 was the highest full year annual subway ridership in the history of the New York City Transit Authority, now called New York City Transit.
What was the network like in 1953? The Rockway line was not part of the subway system, but the Third Avenue El still was. Something tells me if the Third Avenue line was still there, and had been fixed up over the years, the subway system would have had more riders last year.
(Something tells me if the Third Avenue line was still there, and had been fixed up over the years, the subway system would have had more riders last year. )
Interesting question. Would the numerous white brick "luxury" residential buildings from 14th to 39th and 60th to 96th, and the office buildings from 39th to 60th, along 3rd Ave have been built if the El had remained?
I certainly don't know the answer. My guess is not, though. Astoria is as easy a commute to midtown as, say, York and 86th, but it's a lot less built up.
Conventional New York real estate wisdom holds that the removal of elevateds on Third and Sixth Avenues was the catalyst for extensive development. I'm not so sure. In Chicago, development in the Loop has occurred despite the presence of the "L". Outlying residential districts have been gentrified along the "L". In fact, the presence of good transportation by "L" and subway has aided growth in those neighborhoods.
The desirability of the Upper East Side in New York would not be diminished if the Third Avenue el still existed. With proper soundproofing, the white brick luxury apartment buildings would still attract their well-to-do tenants.
(Would the numerous white brick "luxury" residential buildings from 14th to 39th and 60th to 96th, and the office buildings from 39th to 60th, along 3rd Ave have been built if the El had remained? I certainly don't know the answer. My guess is not, though. Astoria is as easy a commute to midtown as, say, York and 86th, but it's a lot less built up.)
That's confusing the snob appeal of Manhattan with the presensce of an elevated subway line. Look at all those fancy apartments right next to the FDR, right next to Con Ed Plants, etc. in Manhattan.
The presence of elevated lines does not deter development. However, improvements to those lines, or their replacement by subway, is usually welcomed by developers.
The increase light that removing the el's created is defitly a plus.
Developemt would have still have occured with or without the el removals. The way the El's have not been modified to reduce the negatives associated with them is mind boggling. If you have ever rode the el's in paris subway. they have been made to be less of a burden to the community. Granted the El'l lines in paris use rubber wheel trains.
When the Jamaica BMT EL Was removed in "Downtown Jamaica"(Jamaica Avenue Bewtween Queens Blvd and 169th Street) The shopkeepers complained about loss of business, yet these are the same shopkeepers that wanted the EL to be removed to Increase Business.
These were the same guys who complained about the buses not being on Jamaica Avenue once Archer Avenue opened.
The Jamaica business community has always had a colonial attitude towards the people in Southeast Queens. They viewed anything done to ease their trips in and out of the area as taking business away from them. However, for a long time they've aimed their stores towards a low income community, despite the fact that the vast majority of Southeast Queens is middle class, upper middle class, or upper class, and very mobile. While they were selling lousy goods, Green Acres, Roosevelt Field, and a lot of other suburban shopping centers were targeting upscale customers, and that's exactly where everyone went.
Things have changed a lot in Jamaica, mostly because the focus of the commercial district has shifted well to the west, towards Parsons Boulevard, towards Sutphin Boulevard, and away from Jamaica Avenue between 165th and 169th Streets, which was always the hub of the area (and the area that dominated the Chamber of Commerce and the other business groups. They were the ones who pushed for the demolition of the elevated structure, about a decade before it was necessary.
"They were the ones who pushed for the demolition of the elevated structure, about a decade before it was necessary."
It seems that different eras embrace different philosophies regarding "improvements". At one time the els were just a part of the scenery, as much as the roofs in shopping malls are. The trend towards car ownership created a larger percentage of the population that didn't have to go to those transit intensive locations to take care of their various needs. So the Jamaica Avenue el, for so long the natural and accepted spinal cord of the Jamaica Avenue business district became the most visible evidence of the decline of the areas' importance. Not "Monorail! Monorail! Monorail!". More like "No more el! No more el! No more el!"
There were also vague plans for the proposed extensions to southeast Queens and the Horace Harding corridor, so I think in that atmosphere the loss of the el, to those civic leaders, didn't seem like too bad an idea. There must have been a consensus that soon enough, the area would be part of a newer transit matrix, raising the status of Jamaica in general. Thus improving business.
In our hindsight of course, in this era of expanding transit construction and utilization (more cities now with rail transit than in the last 50 years or so), we can scoff at their folly. Personally, while I rue the loss of the el, I can understand the desperation of businesses to come up with SOME way to improve their fortunes. Daylighting the Avenue does have some benefits; maybe their mistake was forgetting that while Manhattans' Third Avenue el elimination did argueably improve the neighborhoods around it, Queens doesn't have the benefit of its' density and population. Nobody was out building 60 story apartment buildings near the Avenue. So they could have gone for the el trackage improvement path. Except that might have taken too long, and cost too much.
I think if 3rd ave El was still in Place upper east side would be even more populated.I also think if the El was still standing 60-96st would be considered EL Barrio.
I don't see how the el remaining would have affected the desirability of the UES from 2nd Ave east at least. However, the el would have needed a major rebuild to have survived longer than it did. Perhaps if it was known that the 2nd Ave subway would still be nothing but a set of blueprints nearly 50 years later, more effort would have been expended in saving it.
Els simply weren't popular in NYC, especially after the first subway line opened. Chicago's els are built over private ROW's and not public streets, so comparing the two systems isn't fair.
Quite franky the El's in NYC were built the cheapest way possible totally clashing with thier surroundings.
They block light. Are painted ugrly colors and have little ordementation to make them attractive. Of course all this can be modified to improve their place in the community. If these els were still located along valuable manhattan real estate, these modification would likely have happended.
A few negatives about els.
1) Outdoor stations are cold in the winter and hot in the summer
- the CTA is installing Wind sheilds and heaters on the Loop
- Paris Green line have canaopties over the tracks(but no AC on the trains)
2)They block the light from the street below making the areas under the el's seem bleek and dark.
-Natural light magnifiers can be installed to tansmit the light under the track brighting up the street.
3) the structures are ugly, loud and fluids are always driping on peoples heads(on the west end track fasteners have been known to fall)
-Enclose the bottom of the Els to reduce sound noise and to collect rain water, and air conditioner run off from landing on people's head. Ad ordementation to the el structures and paint them to improve thier appearence.
Issues with el's can be resolves to improve thier place in the community. Most AVE with Els are normally industrial or commercial because it is just to bleek and noisy to live.
I guess I'm a statistical anomoly. I happen to like living near elevated trains. The noise is nothing; you accept it as natural. To me, it's thrilling to be in such close proximity to the structures and the trains. I love the shadow patterns underneath classic els. The support pillars seem natural delineators for the street. The station entrances enhance the importance of the sidewalk.
On suburban lines such as the LIRR Babylon Branch, the effect is different but still pleasing. Surely, there can be no finer examples of the integration of "suburban design" and "rapid transit" than in towns like Rockville Centre, Merrick or Massapequa. These areas are vibrant mini-hubs, and are slowly growing more so. You could consider that line a super express local transit service. And the elevated structure is as accepted as the adjacent Sunrise Hwy.
Bear in mind that if the 2nd Avenue El was still standing, it would probably mean that there would also still be tracks on the Queensboro Bridge. Wouldn't this also have meant that there would be more track capacity on the Flushing line? You wouldn't have the local and express tracks merging at Queensboro Plaza.
You wouldn't have the local and express tracks merging at Queensboro Plaza.
Yes, you would, unless there was still BMT service to Flushing, but then why would anyone want to ride the BMT shittle?
I don't think the Flushing line could handle more trains given the capacity of Main Street. 2nd Ave el service would have been an unsatisfactory alternative. It would be faster to take the IRT into Manhattan abd to transfer to north/south subway lines to get elsewhere.
A 3 track line has exactly the same capacity as a 2 track line, unless you can store trains at either end.
It would have been a miracle to have 2-way express service today on the Flushing line. I'd imagine any modern plan to add additional express tracks would involve placing them above the current track configuration, but the local people would be dead set against it, given the negatives.
It probably never occurred to anyone that the area would develop enough to make express service worthwhile.
Conventional New York real estate wisdom holds that the removal of elevateds on Third and Sixth Avenues was the catalyst for extensive development. I'm not so sure. In Chicago, development in the Loop has occurred despite the presence of the "L". Outlying residential districts have been gentrified along the "L". In fact, the presence of good transportation by "L" and subway has aided growth in those neighborhoods.
The desirability of the Upper East Side in New York would not be diminished if the Third Avenue el still existed. With proper soundproofing, the white brick luxury apartment buildings would still attract their well-to-do tenants.
Third Avenue had a rather down-at-the-heels reputation when the El still ran. It wasn't a slum, not exactly, but it wasn't the sort of place where "respectable" people would ever venture. The great movie "The Lost Weekend" has a vivid and fairly accurate description of Third Avenue life in the late 1940's. Following the El's removal, the downscale uses went away and the white brick buildings soon came.
Which brings up a classic chicken and egg conundrum. The upscale apartment buildings couldn't arise until the pawn shops and saloons were gone. Would these downscale businesses have stayed on Third Avenue if the El remained? Would the white-bricks have gone up if the saloons and pawn shops were gone but the El still ran? No one really knows.
The fact that hte area was more built up with more upscale residences after the El's was removed might have just been a coincidence. NYC in the period after WWI went through a major building boom. Many areas formally less desirable were developed during this period.
It is hard to say whether or not the residential building would have been put up
It doesn't matter if the subway is elevated or underground--there is no instance where the construction of a line hindered the development of a community.
Following up on one of the other threads, look at the Flushing line. For the most part, there was nothing between Long Island City and Flushing when the line was built. Its spurred the development of many communities, including two historical districts (Sunnyside Gardens and Jackson Heights).
they should have at least kept the BRONX portion of the 3rd Avenue el, the (8) line, or SHUTTLE
Does anyone think the Gowanus Viaduct is worse than the New York subway Els? I think so!
"I certainly don't know the answer. My guess is not, though. Astoria is as easy a commute to midtown as, say, York and 86th, but it's a lot less built up"
Not to beat a dead hourse but, much of the reasons certain neighborhoods do not get redeveloped is that the local politicains put up road block to any effort. Why? New people in the neighborhood EQUALS new voters who they don't know how to push thier button to come out and vote for them.
There are things that could be done to dress up and reduce the noise on the els. Better ligting under the el's. Encasing them in sound proof sheilds etc.
Well, the fare went up to 15 cents on July 25 of that year.
The R-10s were firmly entrenched on the A.
And the TA ordered its first subway cars: the R-16s.
ler's consider the Rockaway/Third Ave a wash, but note that 2002 was a year of recession, layoffs, etc and STILL set a record. That says to me the "image" of the subway has improved.
(Note that 2002 was a year of recession, layoffs, etc and STILL set a
record. That says to me the "image" of the subway has improved.)
In fact, the number of passengers boarding in the CBD is down significantly -- Downtown has plunged, and Midtown is down sligthly (despite all the businesses that moved in from Downtown). And when the Department of Labor "rebenchmarked" its employment estimates, it reduced the city's job count by 50,000 jobs. There are often big revisions at the start of a big recession, but this was a whopper, probably because a large number of businesses that weren't in the survey disappeard, something that was discovered later when the tax records came in.
What is happening is that since with an unlimited pass the marginal trip is "free" to the rider, the subway is being used more for non-work trips. That's a good thing -- more off peak travel, and therefore more frequent off peak service, rather than more rush hour riders to squeeze in.
(That's a good thing -- more off peak travel, and therefore more frequent off peak service)
Has NYCT actually increased off peak service in response to the increased off peak travel? All I recall is one announcement of increasing A service from 6 tph to 8 tph.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to be simply allowing off peak trains to get more crowded. That's not necessarily bad; now they're just full, not crush loaded.
Has NYCT actually increased off peak service in response to the increased off peak travel?
NYCT has increased off peak service but probably not in response to off peak travel.
Off peak service is far greater than many years ago. I believe the reason has more to do with the lack of split shifts and part timers. This means two work crews are required to handle rush hour trains - one for the morning and one for the evening. It means that staffing levels are close to rush hour levels for almost 16 hours. So, NYCT has definitely increased off peak service. Reasonably frequent service in the norm from 6 am to almost midnight on most lines.
The downside is that these realities have made NYCT reduce rush hour service from previous years by large amounts.
(It means that staffing levels are close to rush hour levels for almost 16 hours.)
But train frequencies are more like 60% of rush hour midday and evenings. I asked in a separate thread how NYCT deploys its crews in off hours, and got a partial answer.
However, I still don't fully understand how they can run only 60% as many trains midday as in rush hours without having numerous crews polishing their card playing skills. Scheduling all lunch hours in the off hours helps, and crews do non revenue moves, and shifts are staggered, but those items don't really provide a full answer.
However, I still don't fully understand how they can run only 60% as many trains midday as in rush hours without having numerous crews polishing their card playing skills.
NYCT does not have sufficient assets, to borrow a contemporary phrase, to operate rush hour shedules on a sustaining basis. They essentially shoot their wad for a one-way trip to the far terminal. They don't quite make it. However, they do get past the central business district, which is all that matters to them.
and a good result for subway users because more riders mean fewer 'desolate' station waits.
The MTA needs to run more shorter train during the off hours more frequently. This would increase off hours ridership even more. Many people especially people who have other options will take the subway at night and on weekends. This will defintly get people of unmanned subway plaforms(a token booth upstairs provides ZERO security) thus reducing the chance a crime will happan.
Off hours ridership has been helped by two factors
1) A new large surge of immigrants who do not have the resources to own cars thus are forced to take mass transit.
2) The large increase in housing in manhattan in former commercial areas. These people take advantage of the relative frequent service on many manhattan lines during the week and of unlimited ride passes.
Last Wednesday I took the R train from 95th street bay ridge. Just missed the train and had to wait 12 Tortureous minutes for the next train. By the time the train came, the platform was fairly busy. A 4 car OPTO train with a 5 minute wait would be both cheaper to operate and would server the riding public better.
(Just missed the train and had to wait 12 Tortureous minutes for the next train. By the time the train came, the platform was fairly busy. A 4 car OPTO train with a 5 minute wait would be both cheaper to operate and would server the riding public better. )
1. It should have been at most 10 minutes (6 tph) if the trains were operating on schedule.
2. With half length OPTO trains, and passengers getting some savings and NYCT getting part of the savings too, you could realistically expect 7.5 minutes between trains (8 tph), not 5 minutes (10 tph). And don't forget your trip into Manhattan would take a few additional minutes too because station dwell time would be longer.
Station dwell time issues could be adressed by providing in cab video montors and proper layout of stoping zones and rider education. In addtion the large majority of stationed on the 4th ave and broadway lines are on the motormans side of the car.
The monitors on R-142, r-143 should have no problem displaying video in cab so that the T/O would not have to leave his seat.
Talking to my freind who just moved down near 95th street a few months back, most people heading for the city change for the N express at 59th street and then again for the Q or W at pacific street or Dekalb if they are heading for midtown.
2.5 minutes does not sound like alot of time to save but it is an eternity waiting on a subway platform. The reduced wait times will draw more people underground possibly allowing more frequent service.
The wait times for the R aproach 20 min at some times of the day on sundays. This is a serious negative to attracting riders, wspecially in an area that many people have cars.
Another complaint about the R. As one poster mentioned a few weeks back. The R waited for connecting trains at dekalb and pacific steet for excessivily long times.
We waited at dekalb for nearly 2 min for a connecting Q train and waited an addtitioal 68 secounds at pacific for a connecting W train.
One good not about the R is that it is pretty well times to meet up with the N running express at 59th street. The N was waiting across the platform with its doors open when we pulled in.
Every time I ride the 4th ave line it is always a fustrating experiences of waiting and waiting. I guess I am spoiled by the brighton line. No wonder many people opt for the much costly to operate express bus service over the subway along the 4th ave and west end lines
>>> note that 2002 was a year of recession, layoffs, etc and STILL set a record. That says to me the "image" of the subway has improved. <<<
Or possibly that the subway is a Geffen* good.
Tom
*For those who have not studied economics lately, a Geffen good is one that goes opposite to standard economic theory that increased income produces increased consumption. That is when people have less money they buy more of this commodity. The example which was often given was potatoes in 19th century Ireland. When times were good, they sales of potatoes were down because the people bought other foods. When times were bad, people could not afford to buy anything but potatoes, so the total consumption of potatoes increased.
This principle applies to mcdonald and home improvements
People shy away from more expensive lunch items and buy the cheap fast food as the economy drops
People invest money in thier homes instead of buying a bigger home when the economy drops
I'm looking forward to lower Manhattan's rebuilding (OK, so I have to admire it from long distance). :0)
.......Seems a fellow named Charlie Pellet is the voice on the #2)on the R142s) who warns passengers :"STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS, PLEASE"...Mr. Pellet is with Bloomberg Radio.....Perhaps, in his honor, the R142s should be dubbed, "Charlie Cars"? ""Red-Eye Charlies"? "Bloomberg Bombers?"
The name "Bloomberg Bombers" may seem too insensitive and given our constant worries about terrorism, and that new color coded alert system, "bombers" is the last word anyone wants to hear.
I prefer to call the R142s the "R142s."
ok...."BLOOMBERG FLYERS"........only kidding!
I agree also, we don't need Nicknames for the High Tech Cars.
I disagree...the new cars are so unappealing, that there is a NEED to nickname the cars give them some sort of appeal.....No one loved the Redbirds more than I do, but if I can't find SOME sort of appeal in the new cars, I won't be doing any subway trips. Of course, I firmly believe that everyone has the right to thier own opinion, even if they disagree with me.
OK New Guy, Calm Down, I just posted my opinion, LOL. But I still agree with mr_brian about the new cars stayin with their orginal names.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
no problem at all.......it's just that I'm one of those schmucks that never seems to able to please anyone. But, hey, as I said, in all seriousness,everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, and I ceratinly respect that. CC
How about getting Don Pardo to do the voices or the person who does Cartman on South Park.
Maybe Don can tell the millionth person who steps on each R142 or R143 what they will win :)
I agree, Don Pardo would have been a great choice for the voices on the R142s and 143s.
RESPECT MY AUTHORITA!
that voice sounds like the school principals voice from the 'simpsons'.heard it last nite and freaked.
Who does it? I haven't heard the automated messages on the Comet IV's for a long time since the conductors thought it easier to verbally speak the announcements instead of being tangled in codes, and most of my previous rides on NJT have been on Arrows. My last ride with the Comet IV (several months ago) actually had conductors that had the right codes to start and work with! I noticed the EWR station was in place. I didn't think it would be included because the Comet IV's were first an idea in 1996.
1) When were the voices of the Comet IV published?
2) Who does the voices? It sounds slightly different from the lady's voice on the R142(A)'s but not totally different.
3) Do Comet V's have automated announcements and use the same codes as the Comet IV's?
....how about, "CANARSIE COMETS"? "ROCKAWAY ROCKETS"?
Ummm No.
hey, you can't please everybody...I know I sure as hell can't
Someone here mentioned a while back that "The R143 Pirate" would be a good nickname, which I agree with. The MTA logo on the front definitely looks like an eyepatch.
Sounds cool...The HALs (142s) and the Pirates...
What nickname does the R62 go by? Baby Rhino?
R-62 is a silverbird. Not to be confused with an R-32/38, which is a redbird in disguise.
---Brian
And the point of this would be what? "CANARSIE COMETS" wha the hell, the damn L train is not all that fast. Well maybe people will disagree. O well
AMI
you are right..the L is FAR from bieng a speed demon! was just a name for fun....how about "CANARSIE CRAWLERS"?? LOL CC
how bout WHINERS i dont kno if thats the right spelling though lol
but they sound like they are whining and lazy when they start up with that noise they make lol
Thats because they made them like that, with the R142s also.
That is sound is the AC power changin to DC or vice versa. The R142 makes the Bombardier 3 tone sound. The R142A makes the same whining kawaski sound.
AMI
Well I could see Operation "Restrict NYC" in full force today. Times Square had barracaides all over it. Many parts of the Rockefeller Center concourse were closed, as well as lobbies, including that nice passage between the 49st BMT and the Main concourse. Quite depressing. Really put a damper on my trip today. One of my favorite relaxing places to sit, the bench in the 1251 Ave of Americas lobby was closed off, as was the whole lobby. You had to have company ID just to enter. I wound up helping quite a few lost people today, confused by the sudden "police state" placed upon their city.
The security guard by the door at 1251 wasnt too helpful though. I asked him why this was closed off, he didnt answer. Then I said in a joking way "I guess the bench inside is closed" and he said that "they're not tolerating that anymore" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.
Lobbies and benches are public areas of a building and are meant to greet the public. Well this better go away by the summer, otherwise NYC will be seeing less of me, because I cant cool off in an air conditioned building.
Suprisingly, the police state subsided downtown, and all the usual parts of the WFC were open, as well as 1 Liberty Plaza's seating area indoors.
I'll miss Rockefeller center though, its no fun to visit now.
The subways had alot of extra police around, including a few with machine guns. I remember seeing pictures of Beijing in the 1980s, now NYC is starting to look alot like it. :-(
The scary thing is, its probably easier to walk around Beijing or Shainghai than NYC now. :-(
You just picked a bad time to visit NYC. It's bad enough to be here with possible terrioist activity that can happen at any time. It's another thing with protestors that are willing to raise a little ruckus to stop the war.
65 to 75 billion a month, and they don't know where the money is going to come from? Can anyone say, taxes?
We're at war. Get used to it.
The scary thing is, its probably easier to walk around Beijing or Shainghai than NYC now.
I understand your frustration, but you don't really believe that do you?
Everything that is happening in the city right now is necessary. It could be worse.
We are at war.
How is it necessary? Does the war involve Iraqi planes in nightly bombing runs of major American cities?
The threat to the homeland is vastly overblown. Even the threat that there is isn't bigger now than it was before formal hostilities began.
If some people can hijack planes and crash them into some local buildings with nothing more than some boxcutters, Just imagine what they'll try if they get their hands on a dirty bomb or antrax or something else.
While we may be at war, I sympathize with you. The catch phrase from our elected officials is "Go about life as you would normally" but as you describe, they're not allowing us to. At least for the time being you can still sit freely on the bench seats in the subway cars,
Yeah, but they're not marble benches! Of course if its an R40 Slant, those benches are uncomfortable, better off standing at the window. Then again, as long as it's available, I prefer the railfan window 99.9% of the time.
Of course if its an R40 Slant, those benches are uncomfortable, better off standing at the window.
I was a sympathizer with your cause until you made that statement. :-)
Some building lobbies are open to the public purely at the discretion of the building management. If they don't want people there, you have no rights to be there.
Others are mandated public space because the building owner agreed to it in return for zoning concessions. Those spaces are likely to remain open to the public because the local community boards would scream if they were closed.
And public spaces are still open. There's plenty of space to sit in Union Square Park except when a rally is going on. I'm sure Bryant Park is open too. And of course Central Park.
Well 1251 is not a public space, but its such a shame to see a beautiful lobby like that closed to the public.
Also, the I-Disk entrees and the semi-open lobby worked very well for 1251. Now workers have to wait in a long line outside to get in.
BTW, The Metlife building's lobby was open, you could walk right through, I was suprised considering its proximity to Grand Central. Rock CTR must be anal retentive or something. :-0
Its just such a shame.
I remember when I used to be a regular user of the 28th Street/Lex station, I would always use the 26th (27th?) Street exit from that station from the downtown platform in the morning, which led into the beautiful lobby of the New York Life Building. Well actually it was closer to my destination, but I would actually go out of my way to use it because it was so nice (and I could use their escalator).
The funny thing is, I was usually traveling uptown, would transfer through the now closed underpass there (1990) and come up on the downtown platform and walk to that exit. Not only was it a pleasure to use, it was closer to my destination and kept me out of the elements about a block less. I wonder if that exit through NYL is still open. I knew even then there was a way to go that you din;t even have to enter their building, but I usually did.
The underpass at 28th St closed while I was still using the station, but I wasn't sure about the exit through the NY Life building.
Any other subway exits through nice building lobbies?
Well you have the 53/Lex station, that sorta connects to Citigroup's lobby although you do have to briefly go outside. They probably closed that off as well now, so you cant even sit in the mall and have lunch.
Also, its not an office building but there is a direct connection from 60th and Lex into Bloomingdales. There are some others, I think the 42nd st Grand Central subway had a connection to the Chrysler building (probably closed as well).
There are probably others. I remember when George in Seinfeld said "I can name you the best bathroom from any place in the city". He later mentioned the some office building and mentioned "just mention Bob's name, they'll give you the key". Like you can even get into an office buildings elevator without ID!
Man, I gotta get a job at 1251, then I can hang out there! :-0
I remember that Seinfeld episode!
Like you can even get into an office buildings elevator without ID!
That reminds me of something that seems amazing at this point. I guess it was the late 80's, but I new someone that worked at Morgan Stanley-DW in the World Trade Center. I was a teenager at the time, but I had some foriegn relatives visit us, and he invited us to lunch in the MS-DW lunchroom which occupied an entire floor at the WTC. We just walked in and met him there, and we all went up to the "lunchroom". The foreign visitors loved it (hey I loved it), and I still can't believe how we were just able to walk in. At the time though it seemed normal. Things sure have changed.
There was no turnstyles or "security" at the WTC until after the 1993 bombing. Then the turnstyles were installed, even though they were not fully functional (letting people in) until 2000 I believe, they always worked exiting the elevator banks.
Bank of new yorks 1 wall street building once had access via the Wall street 4/5 uptown platform. That closed after the first WTC attack.
In fact up until the first WTC attack it was fairly easy to walk into an office building of any size and head up the elevator.
"In fact up until the first WTC attack it was fairly easy to walk into an office building of any size and head up the elevator."
Yep. Hell, I used to do that all the time. Would go looking for good views. Walk through a lobby and just get into the elevator. Go up 40, 50 flights up. And yeah, I would also get into many bathrooms way up high in the sky.
Too bad I never experienced that. :-(
Well, you can still do that here on LI. But dont expect to go any more than 10 flights up!
When I was working for the old WNEW-AM at Third and 42nd, I used to commute in from Croton-Harmon on the Hudson Line. On bad weather days, especially in the winter, rather than walk outside the one block from Grand Central to work, I would instead walk to the entrance level of the 4/5/6 at GCT, walk across the subway entrance level below Lexington Avenue, and come up in the lobby of the Chrysler Building. From there you could walk down a long corridor and come out at Third and 42nd. From there the radio station was just across the street (above the last Automat). That made life much easier during winter storms. I wonder if you can still do that?
I know they have restricted access to the Philadelphia Stock Exchange
Building, they havea a beautiful tropical atrium in there
Can't get into it anymore.
Hey, what if they reinstate The Draft?
Kind of puts not being able sit down in an air-conditioned space in perspective on the scale of inconvenience.
Good point, not being able to sit in a lobby is hardly something to shed a tear over, considering all the other things happening.
Think of the "comforts of home" our poor POW's are having in Iraq right now. I'm sure they only wish they were sitting on a hot bench in New York in 95 degree heat in the summer right now.
In the big scheme of things, these minor inconveniences hopefully will pass, but are necessary. We are in serious times right now.
This is a Red Herring. The plight of the POWs is in no way affected by a person's access to certain public areas. You only brought them up because which one of us would be in favor of the continued suffering of American soldiers?
Well, tell me how we are contributing to the safety of American service men and women in Iraq by Qtraindash7's not being allowed into 1251 6th Avenue?
Now granted, a private landlord can do whatever it wants with its lobby, but saving POWs is not the objective one achieves by closing a lobby.
People in this country sometimes don't realize how good they have it. Even the poorest homeless man on the street has it better then the vast majority of the world's population.
Reminds me of a story about an immigrant.
Paraphrased:
In the old country, paper said life was good. But it wasn't.
After I moved here, paper say life is bad. But it better than before.
Or perhaps a friend of mine who came here from Leningrad ...
"In Russia, they hold you tight by collar. In America, they let you out on leash." :)
People in this country sometimes don't realize how good they have it. Even the poorest homeless man on the street has it better then the vast majority of the world's population.
So what? Am I supposed to give up my American luxuries because someone else somewhere in the world doesn't have the same thing? That's a nice way of achieving global equality: It's too difficult to have everyone live well, so have everyone live like shit.
Hey AP, don't you get it----we're supposed to feel guilty because we happen to have been blessed by being raised in the greatest country in all history. Sorry, I can't feel guilty, I can only hope that we are a beacon to the world and that someday all people will live free and be able to achieve what most of us have. It would be speeded along if people like Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, all the Ayatollahs, and some of those tinhorn dictators in Africa, were cast into the infernal reaches so their people could breath the fresh air of freedom.
Hey AP, don't you get it----we're supposed to feel guilty because we happen to have been blessed by being raised in the greatest country in all history. Sorry, I can't feel guilty
Neither can I, but apparently voiceofnoreason feels we should.
Well it not just the lobby, but the closures of the passageways, more importantly. Like now, you cant get off the Broadway line at 49st for an "out of the system transfer" for the IND at 47-50, because that passageway is closed.
The mayor says to go out and enjoy the day and forget about the war, but you cant with the police state in some places.
And it reminds us of those poor soldiers of ours over their in Iraq, fighting for a cause dictated by the Bush Republican machine.
OK, I guess you have figured out I am against this war and for peace, by now.
We wouldn't have a police state right now if we didnt have a cowboy as President. Heck, he even stole the votes from the saloon. :-0
We wouldn't have a police state right now....
9/11/2001
We wouldn't have a police state right now....
9/11/2001
Irrelevant. It was a one-in-a-quadrillion event.
Maybe true, but security began getting tightened ever since then. Although of course worse now, because of the war, we have been slowly dealing with increased security, etc since that day.
And to think - if the funding hadn't been cut to Hades by congress PRIOR to 9/11 for INS and our "intelligence agencies" we might still have two tall towers still standing down there. :(
Irrelevant. It was a one-in-a-quadrillion event.
Any administration would have responded in the same way.
Well, considering the first WTC bombing, it was a "two-in-a-quadrillion event."
Some of us don't want to try for three-in-a-quarillion.
From what I heard, it was because the CIA buggered up, an event I consider much more likely than 1 in a quadrillion. However, no fear: send a legate to London and you can hire the marginally more competent MI6 for a very good price...
>>> send a legate to London and you can hire the marginally more competent MI6 for a very good price... <<<
O.K., rub it in, just because we were unable to develop an agent like "Bond!....James Bond!" :-)
Tom
(you can hire the marginally more competent MI6 for a very good price... )
Are you sure? MI6 is evidently the leading suspect in an extremely poorly done forgery (that the CIA temporarily took at face value) claiming to show that Iraq was trying to purchase Uranium from Niger.
(Not that Iraq isn't guilty of other things, but everyone evidently now agrees they aren't in fact guilty of what the forgery purported).
MI6 is evidently the leading suspect in an extremely poorly done forgery (that the CIA temporarily took at face value) claiming to show that Iraq was trying to purchase Uranium from Niger.
Sounds like a good attempt at pulling the CIA's leg!
I wish we didn't keep having to come up with spurious justifications - we wanna kick Saddam's ass, so we are jolly well going to do it - okay!?!
Feh you OLD EUROPE wankers'll never quite GET it. :)
FIRST you gotta decode the new enhanced "Captain speaking, fetch me my BROWN trousers" security code ... HA! I laugh upon your "Jabot." ("Fetchez la vache ... moooo") ("We're knights of the round table, we dance whene'er we're able") ... five levels weren't QUITE enough nappy-soaking ...
Domestic security chief Tom Ridge recently introduced a color-coded terrorism alert system. For example, green is a low risk of terrorist attack.
We wondered what some of the other alerts might be...
The Top 14 Terrorism Alert Levels
Plaid alert: Britney is in her slutty-schoolgirl mood again.
Green alert: Friggin' hippies are plotting to further destabilize the
country by throwing yet another distracting candidate into a tight
election.
Purple alert: Jerry Falwell thinks your children are growing too fond of a certain purse-carrying Teletubby.
Khaki alert: Gap employee pod people have hatched.
Pink alert: Please disregard. Ridge accidentally washed the white and red alerts together in hot water.
Burnt Sienna alert: Expect possible acts of violence by crayon-wielding school children.
Black/tan/beige/white alert: Michael Jackson is approaching.
Oatmeal, Forest, Seafoam alerts: Terrorists have been sighted in the vicinity of L.L. Bean outlets.
Rainbow alert: Rosie O'Donnell has adopted another child.
Crimson with a Delicate Splash of Rose alert: That time of the month for Martha Stewart.
Brown alert: For the love of God, do NOT go in the office bathroom for a while.
White alert: Now entering a restricted-access country club.
Yellow alert: Senator Thurmond has just peed his pants.
and the Number 1 Terrorism Alert Level...
Pale Green alert: Credible threat of hangover, with puke cannon armed and ready to be deployed.
War aint pretty either, I dont like violence of any kind.
Even Peter Jennings almost lost it last night listening to a cousin of a POW.
Its horrible, and it feels like 9/11/01 all over again. I pray for peace and the safe return of our loved ones.
Too bad Iraq just couldnt fold by itself like the Soviet Union.
Too bad Iraq just couldnt fold by itself like the Soviet Union.
One thing those two had in common: they were no real threat to Britain or America.
Are there any nations that have a fireman state instead of a police state?
The UK - the firemen have been going on strike for months, and now the soldiers who had been covering their jobs are needed in sodding Iraq.
Hey, look on the bright side - the UK sold Saddam half his arms, so at least we know what he's got!
There is no reason to reinstate the draft.
The equiptment the army now uses needs plenty of training to use.
In addition the army is currently testing unmanned vehicles such as tanks and other attack and reconacence vehicles. Each person in todays army does the job of 200 people did in WWII.
The preditor unmanned airial survalance and attack plane largly operates in automated mode. A remote operator takes control to assist in visually targeting targets. Compare that to a fighter jet or cobra helicoptor which have two men aboard and the men must fly a few hours each way to a target. Compare that to WWII when the crew was 5 men or more per plane
If the MTA would half the automation the army has, it would be profitable at $1 per ride
That is not the point.
If the MTA would half the automation the army has, it would be profitable at $1 per ride
If the MTA had half the federal funding the army has, it would be profitable at $1 per ride, we'd have had a 4 track 2nd Av Subway decades ago, the Myrtle Av El would have been re-inforced or replaced, and Archer Av might even reach 168th St!
Archer Av might even reach 168th St!
Merrick Blvd.
There is no reason to reinstate the draft.
The equiptment the army now uses needs plenty of training to use.
In addition the army is currently testing unmanned vehicles such as tanks and other attack and reconacence vehicles. Each person in todays army does the job of 200 people did in WWII.
The preditor unmanned airial survalance and attack plane largly operates in automated mode. A remote operator takes control to assist in visually targeting targets. Compare that to a fighter jet or cobra helicoptor which have two men aboard and the men must fly a few hours each way to a target. Compare that to WWII when the crew was 5 men or more per plane
If the MTA would half the automation the army has, it would be profitable at $1 per ride
The army is rolling out a troop tracking system that displays in each tank, gunship etc. where each tank and troops are and which ones are freinds and foes. The MTA could improve bus and train monitoring with such a system and get rid much of its obsolete bus and train tracking staff
Hey, what if they reinstate The Draft?
Kind of puts not being able sit down in an air-conditioned space in perspective on the scale of inconvenience.
What if Satan himself rose from hell and enslaved all of humanity for eternity? Now that would suck!
Kind of puts not being liable to enslavement abroad by the US Government in perspective on the scale of inconvenience.
The point is that we have been in many wars, and I will state flatly that never, in any war of consequence, has the civilian population been asked to personally sacrifice so little as in this one.
Yet even so some people are so self-centered that they don't even feel they should deal with inconvenience.
>>> I will state flatly that never, in any war of consequence, has the civilian population been asked to personally sacrifice so little as in this one. <<<
I cannot agree. In neither the Korean war nor Vietnam war nor Desert Storm was the civilian population asked to sacrifice so much personal freedom nor so much self respect. If those are minor things to you, so be it.
Tom
>>> I will state flatly that never, in any war of consequence, has the civilian population been asked to personally sacrifice so little as in this one. <<<
I cannot agree. In neither the Korean war nor Vietnam war nor Desert Storm was the civilian population asked to sacrifice so much personal freedom nor so much self respect. If those are minor things to you, so be it.
In both the Korean and the Vietnam War (and all the years in between) civilians were drafted. This rather affected the younger generation and their relatives and friends.
Coming full circle to my original point.
I will state flatly that never, in any war of consequence, has the civilian population been asked to personally sacrifice so little as in this one.
I cannot agree. In neither the Korean war nor Vietnam war nor Desert Storm was the civilian population asked to sacrifice so much personal freedom nor so much self respect. If those are minor things to you, so be it.
In both the Korean and the Vietnam War (and all the years in between) civilians were drafted. This rather affected the younger generation and their relatives and friends.
And in what prior wars did we have a "Department of Fatherland Security?" Sorry, I meant Homeland Security, Freudian slip.
You may be right about the draft in Korea and Vietnam, but what about Desert Storm? While I was in Connecticut at the time, I highly doubt that you had squadrons of machine-gun-toting cops earning overtime patrolling the subways during Desert Storm. Nor were there all these "security" crackdowns then, like the closing of building lobbies and underground passageways that Qtraindash 7 noted. Nor were there cops assigned to ride commuter trains (also earning overtime), like the NYS troopers I've seen on the LIRR the last couple days.
Face facts, Americans, and New Yorkers in particular, are acting like a bunch of cowards this time. They didn't in Desert Storm, nor, I would assume, in Korea and Vietnam.
In what previous war did we have an attack on "The Homeland," and the realistic (except to you) threat of sabotage. I'll answer that for you. The War of 1812.
The closing of passageways and building lobbies. Oooooo. People in previous wars didn't know the meaning of wartime deprivations.
During WWII there were Japanese and German subs patroling off our shores. And there were the German spies that were captured on the south shore of Long Island around 1942. And in 1945 there was a little known report of a bombing by a Japanese balloon in Washington State. IIRC it killed a teacher and 5 students.
And the wartime derpivations of World War II were severe, not even counting the fact that men were drafted up to the age of 45, and they were drafting fathers with families.
I am beginning to feel like we are heading down a slippery slope. To me government has a track record of convincing people that a new tax/law/regulation will only have a minor impact. After we are suckered into accepting it - it is expanded exponentially.
For example:
When FICA started people were promised that it was only a low 1.5% - it is now 7.65%.
When the income tax started it was only imposed on the rich (those making over $5,000 in 1913) and the rate was only 2%.
When no-smoking started in restaurants they were allowed to have smoking sections - now look what happened.
I can list countless others...
How many "temporary" restrictions and regulations have since become permanent?
I sincerely fear that even when the war is over we will never regain some if not all of our lost freedoms. If some sunset provision were written into all these new restrictions I might feel a bit more comfortable albeit still distrustful.
I understand your fear, but you're comparing apples and oranges.
There is a large constituency in this country that never saw a tax it didn't like, so long as they get decide how those taxes are spent.
In terms of wartime, I think it was the Washington Post, at least a year ago, that examined wartime restraints on freedom, and there were doozies. The worst were probably under one of the most revered presidents, Lincoln, during the Civil War--including the only general suspension of Habeus Corpus.
In all cases, the most severe restrictions were lifted after the war ended.
You also have to consider that we have generally expanded the definition of "freedom" in the last 30-odd years in an unprecedented way. Some of this (such as effectively open borders) may be restricted in the long term.
>>> In all cases, the most severe restrictions were lifted after the war ended. <<<
But the "War on Terrorism" which has brought on the most severe abuses of our rights, such as being jailed without charges and not having the right to an attorney and secret courts available only to prosecutors, is as open ended as the war on drugs. The war is never over. Of course you can overlook these things and say "But it does not matter because these things will never be used against me or other good citizens." If so, I hope you are right.
Tom
So far, being jailed on what amounts to an open warrant for an indefinite time has been applied to exactly two citizens, both very special circumstances.
It is not necessarily paranoid to fear a slippery slope, but people seem to forget that mountains have two slopes (at least). We went far down the slippery slope of conveying the rights and protections of citizenship not only to non-citizens but even to non-citizens not legally in the country. This openness was used by enemies to do us grievous harm.
If the one slope hadn't been so slippery and its existence so defended, we might not now be worrying so much about the other one.
>>> So far, being jailed on what amounts to an open warrant for an indefinite time has been applied to exactly two citizens <<<
Are you sure of that? How would we know if it were applied to others secretly?
>>> We went far down the slippery slope of conveying the rights and protections of citizenship not only to non-citizens but even to non-citizens not legally in the country. This openness was used by enemies to do us grievous harm. <<<
We have never provided the rights of citizenship to non-citizens. We have had determined that there are certain minimum rights all persons should have. I have no quarrel with the idea that a country should keep track of the foreigners within its borders. When I lived abroad, I had to have a current visa, renewable every six months and keep local authorities informed of my address. The host government could expel me any time (as it did to a friend of mine), but it could not arrest me and hold me incommunicado for an unlimited period of time. Our government once had an alien registration system that required annual registration, but was much to lazy to continue such a system, or beholden to interests who were making money from the flow of illegal immigrants.
Tom
"The worst were probably under one of the most revered presidents, Lincoln, during the Civil War--including the only general suspension of Habeus Corpus."
And the Civil War was the worst the United States ever experienced. Had the South won, there would be no US today as we know it. It's amazing that the Union managed to fight the war without even more restrictions than Lincoln actually imposed.
Had the South won, there would be no US today as we know it.
True. Rednecks like George W Bush would be ineligable to be president.
Had the South won, there would be no US today as we know it.
True. Rednecks like George W Bush would be ineligable to be president
I could trade across-the-sea insults, but shan't. Infact I'll pay a compliment you might not be receptive to.
Britain has a leader who, facing similar public sentiment, had the choice to emulate Chamberlain or Churchill, and we see how he has chosen.
Britain has a leader who, facing similar public sentiment, had the choice to emulate Chamberlain or Churchill, and we see how he has chosen.
And look how Churchill fared in the first post-war election.
Post-war election.
And look how Churchill fared in the first post-war election.
No worse than he deserved. To think that the Conservative Party chose HIM of all people as leader! I reckon there's a pattern: Salisbury good, Balfour good, Austen Chamberlain good, Baldwin good, Neville Chamberlain good, but had an unfortunate sequence of events, Churchill appalling, but had a good run of events, Eden good, but had no money, MacMillan good, Douglas-Home abysmal, Heath worse, Thatcher pisspoor, Major bland, Hague risible, Duncan Smith who-he? - the Conservative Party's leadership took an irreversible knock at Neville Chamberlain's resignation, and has never really recovered, despite Eden and Macmillan's best efforts.
I could trade across-the-sea insults
Come on - Dubya is an international laughing-stock. That doesn't make America anything less of a great nation, except perhaps the state of Florida.
Britain has a leader who, facing similar public sentiment, had the choice to emulate Chamberlain or Churchill, and we see how he has chosen.
No similarity between the situations at all. There is no threat from any nation to the British mainland. There is even less threat to the American mainland. We have a peace Augustus would have been proud of.
You may fear crimes, but you have no need to fear war, as, short of the Canadians getting so pissed at Dubya that they invade, you have nothing to worry about.
I will however allow you to draw comparisons between Blair and Clinton for being inept and getting away with it.
The closing of passageways and building lobbies. Oooooo. People in previous wars didn't know the meaning of wartime deprivations.
In real wars, they were opened up. Think of the rôle the Tube played in 1940s London.
Reality check: there are no bombs and V2 rockets targeted on NYC.
You are talking about an entirely different war scenario. The V2 missiles were not deployed from within England. The attacks inside the U.S. were all perpetrated by people allowed the freedom to operate in out midst.
You are talking about an entirely different war scenario.
No, I am talking about a scenario which is actually a war, rather than paranoia and hysteria as the result of one (albeit nasty) terrorist incident. Dignifying it as a war is giving terrorists legitimacy to wage a war.
So "freedom" was the problem? No WONDER we're abolishing it. Silly me, I thought the problem was that we allowed people who were on the "KNOWN BAD PEOPLE" list to get into the country in the first place because there weren't enough INS agents and because intelligence interpretation staff was chronically underfunded and they managed to slip right past our border defenses unchallenged. And then they vanished within our borders because there was insufficient personnel to monitor them. All for a piddly tax cut.
Sorry, I'm just getting mighty tired of how this is all getting spun. :(
Well, of course it's getting spun. Why do you think they call it the world wide web?
Heh. Good one. :)
(Face facts, Americans, and New Yorkers in particular, are acting like a bunch of cowards this time.)
Some may be, and of course they get quoted in the media. But I don't notice a particular reduction in the use of mass transit, or reduced crowding in the streets. Most people are just going about their business and hoping that you are right that there's nothing to worry about, but understanding that you might be wrong too.
Did you forget about Senator Joe McCarthy and the Communist witch hunts? The blacklisting of thousands of American citizens for no good reason?
I remember an actress who was thought to be communist. Her husband defended her saying the only red thing about her was her hair. And it wasn't naturally red!
Sounds like a line from an old movie, in which an American spy hooks up with a beautiful spyess, and they are supposed to be romantically involved. As they get to know each other she describes herself to him: "I have a mole ... here," indicating her hip. He then says "You have beautiful hair. Is it your natural color?"
Spies (and moviemakers) had so much more class in those days. ;-)
It was Lucille Ball - and the story was true
Sounds like good Augustan government.
Close the doors of the Temple of Janus!
>>> The subways had alot of extra police around, including a few with machine guns. <<<
I suspect you exaggerate. I doubt that the NYPD is lugging machine guns around. Perhaps automatic rifles, possibly sub-machine guns, but not machine guns. (Although one mounted on the front of of a slant R-40 would send a message to terrorists that we are serious. :-))
Tom
I think Q is thinking of State Policearmy/National Guard with a M16 rifle. I saw them around Fulton/William about 2-3 weeks after 9/11.
Although one mounted on the front of of a slant R-40 would send a message to terrorists that we are serious
Already being my favorite, a machine gun mounted on the front would make my day. :-)
Actually, the M60 SAW (Squad automatic Weapon) can be carried and fired by one person, though you will only achieve optimal rate of fire by stabilizing it on a bipod or tripod, having quick-change barrels handy, and a nice long ammunition belt (along with a second man to handle the belt and help spot targets).
The M60 is the standard light-to-medium machine gun in the US inventory today.
The M60 is the standard light-to-medium machine gun in the US inventory today.
Typical LIRR won't get them for another century yet ;-)
>>> The M60 is the standard light-to-medium machine gun in the US inventory today. <<<
You are correct the M-60 is a light machine gun. The replacement for the Browning Automatic Rifle. The difference between firing an M-60 and an M-2 machine gun on a 1000 meter range is night and day.
Tom
I love the subject line!
-Robert King
>>>...otherwise NYC will be seeing less of me...<<
Lucky us
>>> ...its probably easier to walk around Beijing or Shainghai than NYC now...<<<
...and you know this as fact?
Peace.
ANDEE
In Brian Cudahy's "Under The Sidewalks Of New York", he mentions that colored painted bands, later supplemented with bulbs, directed passengers to the Times Square-GC shuttle. Does anyone remember these? When was the colored bulb system abandoned? What color (s) were the bulbs?
More than likely the bands and bulbs were taken down when TA realised no one was looking at them. The same type of people who don't notice posters and announcements regarding GO's and service changes.
You have a point!
I recall green bulbs and red bulbs along the ceiling. Were probably abandoned in the mid-60s, but I can't remember exactly when.
Thanks Andy...I see my memory was correct...I had memories of the bulbs in the early 60s when I was a kid.
Thanks Andy...I see my memory was correct...I had memories of the bulbs in the early 60s when I was a kid.
I think there were both red and green bulbs (and bands) at Times Square for the Shuttle and also for the Broadway-Seventh Avenue.
What I vaguely remember is the difficulty of following them because of so many additional conduits, signs, and other overhead stuff.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
CC:
When the IRT first began the current shuttle operation back on August 1, 1918 there was a great deal of confusion and overcrowding at Grand Central. The shuttle was closed from midnight August 3 to midnight August 4 to allow the installation of red and green colored lights and signs to properly direct passengers.
Remember that at this time the present day passageway between the shuttle platform and the Lexington Avenue Line did not yet exist. Passaengers had to use the still existing upper passageway which required a few flights of stairs and a long walk through a tunnel. This passageway still exist but it is outside the fare control zone.
The colored light were in use at least until the mid sixties but I can't recall seeing them after that.
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry...thanks for your info...you know your stuff! You are right also.....my best memories of the bulbs was back in the early and mid sixties, when they were still in use. I also think I remember the bulbs remaining for some time after they were discontinued.....I wonder if anyone can give us an exact time as to when the colored bulbs were shut off. Thanks again. CC
Those bulbs and bands were one of my earliest memories of the subway. My dad managed the Western Union office at Broadway and 40th, and he showed me some of the basic ropes of subway riding.
As I recall, different bands/bulbs directed you to the shuttle, the 7th Ave., and the BMT. They were very helpful in the chaos of the cobbled together station.
yes...the bands and bulbs are clear in my subway memories forty years ago. And they would STILL be useful today, especially to tourists and out-of-towners.
The last time the TA tried something like that was for the 1964-64 World's Fair, with the "Follow the Blue Arrow" campaign and lots of blue arrows on the walls and ceilings (and maybe some on the floor, too) at Times Square and Grand Central directing passengers to the Flushing (#7) line trains to the World's Fair at Willets Point station.
-- Ed Sachs
Yeah, the 7 is kind of hard to find at Times Square if you don't know where to look.
CC local, you have made it clear that you're an old timer. Are you someone I would have known 40 years ago? I won't ask who, but there are a lot of Heritage Railfans still around who I have never seen post on SubTalk.
Yep..you're right...I AM an old-timer....that's putting it mildly! I don't think you knew me 40 years ago......I am from Jersey, but my mom used to bring me into the city to ride the subways in the days whe Standards and Lo-Vs were still running, and blue World's Fair IRT cars were the latest in subway style! Best, CC
That's my favorite book. I learned a great deal of stuff from this book. I usually read this book at work on weekends when the phones aren't ringing so much. I found the "Malbone Street" chapter to be the most interesting.
yeah..the Malbone St disaster would make a great made for TV movie.....or even big screen..has a LOT of potential! CC
Well your specialist was busy today having a liquid lunch with a person in the know.When the Manny B does reopen ,In which construction is ahead of schedule,there will be a massive service change blitz.None of this is set in stone but the person did have timetables on them indicating that its almost done.Here is the Jist
N)Sea Beach,4th ave Exp,Via Bridge,Bway Exp to Astoria Rush hours
Late nights all local stops Coney Island to Astoria.
B)Brighton Express ,Rush hours and Midday only,Via Bridge to 145 non rush and to Bedford park Rush hours.No weekend service.
Q)West End ,4 th ave local ,Bway Local via tube to Astoria ,Off hours not in service its an Opto Shuttle C I to 36.
D)Returns to Normal Coney Island to 205st.Brighton local
M)95st brooklyn to Metropolitan Ave ,4th ave Local ,Nassau local
On weekends runs shuttle to Myrtle.
R)same as now Increased headway ,Look for R to be completely R 32 by end of april
W)WhiteHall to 57 and 7 Rushours and midday only ,Bway Local.
Seems just about right to me .
Seems just about right to me .
Seems rather odd to me.
1. W)WhiteHall to 57 and 7 Rushours and midday only ,Bway Local. - crossing over a local to terminate at 57/7 is unnecessary and quite frankly dumb.
2. M)95st brooklyn to Metropolitan Ave ,4th ave Local ,Nassau local - West End riders won't like the service cut.
3. N)Sea Beach,4th ave Exp,Via Bridge,Bway Exp to Astoria Rush hours
Late nights all local stops Coney Island to Astoria.
B)Brighton Express ,Rush hours and Midday only,Via Bridge to 145 non rush and to Bedford park Rush hours.No weekend service.
Q)West End ,4 th ave local ,Bway Local via tube to Astoria ,Off hours not in service its an Opto Shuttle C I to 36.
D)Returns to Normal Coney Island to 205st.Brighton local - it makes a kind of operational sense to send all Brighton service to 6th Avenue and all 4th Avenue to Broadway, but it won't be best for passengers. Remember you can't change at DeKalb for the 4th Ave Express.
Well your specialist was busy today having a liquid lunch with a person in the know.
Are you drunk?
It sure does sound like the liquid aspect of the lunch has had an effect. NYCT may be absurdly stingy at times, but they aren't out of their minds. This plan provides excess service in some places and not enough in others (e.g., no Brighton express evenings).
It sounds like he heard part of a reasonable facsimile of the plan, but some details are missing or switched around.
He's correct in that it is ahead of schedule, and there will be some major changes (restorations!) in service. Our subway service will improve, especially since available rolling stock will continue to increase between now and the Manny B's showtime.
Q will be 24/7 running from Brighton (possibly to Queens) most likely to 57th St./7th Av.
B will be like it was
D will be like it was
M will remain as is going to 9th Ave.
W possibly will remain as is, but doubtful. Although I can see it going to Whitehall weekdays only.
N via Bridge going to Astoria as is like now. Remember, the N won't go to Stillwell until 2005 when all phases of the construction there is completed.
Broadway: Locals 60th St -> via Montague
Broadway: Express 63rd St -> via Bridge
6th Ave: 'Express' 8th Av -> via Bridge
6th Ave: 'Local' Queens -> via Rutgers
Therefore:
(W) Broadway Local | Astoria -> Coney Island via West End Local: All Times
(R) Broadway Local | Continential -> 95th Street via 4th Ave : All Times
(N) Broadway Express | 57th Street -> Coney Island via Sea Beach : Days
(Q) Broadway Express | 57th Street -> Brighton Beach via Brightion Express: Days
(D) 6th Ave Express | 205 Concourse -> Coney Island via Brighton Local : All Times
(B) 6th Ave Express | Bedford Park -> Bay Parkway via West End Exp : Day Times
(F) 6th Ave Local | 179th Street -> Coney Island via Culver Local : All Times
(V) 6th Ave Local | Continental -> Chambers Street : Days
(E) 8th Ave Local | Jamaica Center -> Kings Highway via Culver Exp : Days
Elias
Umm -- two services on West End as far as Bay Parkway daytimes, but only one service to Astoria??
And no Nassau service to the Montague Tunnel at all at any time (Broad St becomes a terminal). If you've just left out the M by mistake, where would its southern terminal be? You have two Brightons, two West Ends and two Culvers already. M to Bay Ridge (95th) daytimes?
(M)Broad Street | Metropolitan Avenue -> 9th Avenue : Days
There is no need for two services on the Astoria, since they can only go to Broadway. The only issue is: Is that too much service for the West End? If Astoria needs more service, some of them can be short turned at Whitehall.
Elias
Q will go to Stillwell giving an occasional M to Brighton. Also, Q wlll be another option for the 63rd St. tunnel.
Also, Q wlll be another option for the 63rd St. tunnel.
Yes, as I have indicated an optimal arrangement would have BWAY EXP trains operating via 63rd & Bridge and BWAY LOCALS operating via 60th & Tunnel.
But I terminated my exps at 57th since the need is that they must ALL go through the 63rd St. Tunnel, or else NONE of them can.
Except for a few changes, my plan is almost identical with the one that has come on down to us from on high!
: ) Elias
Highly unlikely, for three reasons I spot right off:
The two Brighton services follow the same route through midtown.
The West End loses its 4th Avenue express and bridge service. Besides, any West End - Broadway service would be called W, not Q.
Any service running only between 57/7 and Whitehall will have to cross paths with the N between 34 and 57.
any West End - Broadway service would be called W
NO, NO, NO!!! Come on with that W! It needs to go back to T! I hate having to pronounce three syllables when trying to give somebody directions.
NO, NO, NO!!! Come on with that W! It needs to go back to T!
I couldn't agree more ;-)
Whatever it's called, it certainly won't be called the Q.
Come on with that W! It needs to go back to T! I hate having to pronounce three syllables when trying to give somebody directions.
You are absoultly correct. In my post (somewhere above) I did call it a (W) just so them young whippersnappers would understand what I meant, but of course I would call it a (T) train, or even the (TT) and the (RR)
: ) Elias
No, I don't mean the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW. I think we should stop calling the letter "double-yoo" and instead rename it to "we."
WEEE!
Okay, that's just stupid.
That'll give me one less reason to hate the 'double-yoo double-foo f"
Might as well they should called it a double V. Notice when two V attached together it look exactly like W as in VV. This UU my friend is UU not VV.
Thank gox there are no more double letters... I can just about imagine an announcement along the lines of "This is 76th St; transfer here to the UU and W trains."
When it becomes a local, should we call it the (WW) train?
But I do agree, though. Pronouncing 'W' as 'Double-U doesn't sound good. I think it should be 'Double-V' but does that even sound right?
To be fair, not all people write 'W's' the same. Some people like to round the bottoms of the W, rather than angle them, so calling W, 'Double-U' may be right in some form or another.
Wow, so much logic on 1 letter. Next, I'll talk about A and B perhaps by the end of the week if I'm lucky! :P
Cyrillic "D" and "L" have the "Greek" and "Russian" ways to write them I have seen both used. "Greek" cyrillic "D" looks like a Delta, and "L" looks like an upside-down "V". The traditional Russian letters look somewhat different.
wayne
The difficulty with Cyrillic script is that most Russians' handwriting looks nothing like the printed version of the letters!
the nucular "Dubya" train.
"W"ayne :o>
"N)Sea Beach,4th ave Exp,Via Bridge,Bway Exp to Astoria Rush hours
Late nights all local stops Coney Island to Astoria."
Fred's gonna love this!
I'm turning in now-----and I go to bed on a high note. I loved your post. Now to keep my fingers crossed.
The proposed changes are VERY different from what you posted. I have a copy of the proposed reroutes. Anyone who wants a copy, Just drop me a line.
RTOControlCenter@aol.com
if you got ... you can send one my way...
Post it for all to see!!!!
No. If you want it, You know what to do.
Can you send one may way?
Thanks
See other thread. Proposed plan is
here.
Hmmm, where to begin:
- Only the R running through from Dekalb to lower Manhattan outside rush hours? Bad idea, won't happen.
- The B/D swap in Brooklyn is too radical and makes no sense. Swapping the B & N and reducing the B to a shuttle makes more sense. There's no advantage of making the 24/7 Brighton line the Q.
Otherwise, the plan is OK.
How is swapping the B and N any less radical than swapping the B and D?
If anything, it's more radical. The N currently runs on the Sea Beach. The B and D don't currently run in Brooklyn at all.
If anything, it's more radical. The N currently runs on the Sea Beach. The B and D don't currently run in Brooklyn at all.
The B & D are still widely associated with the Brighton and West End lines. Swapping the B and N doesn't affect Brighton line riders at all. Running the N on the West End simply retains the current service pattern (only a letter change). All the change is confined to the Sea Beach, which has the lowest ridership of all 4 routes over the bridge and which current service sucks so much that any change would be welcome.
>>>The B & D are still widely associated with the Brighton and West End lines.<<<
Why would that matter? At one point, the T was associated with the West End. Before that, it was the (BMT) 3. The D ran on the Culver line from 1954 to 1967. It was probably strongly associated with the Culver. Before the IND connection, the Culver line was called the 5. Just because that's the way it was, doesn't mean that's the way it always has to be. What if the Second Avenue Subway, as planned in 1968, had been built and opened in 1980, taking over the IRT Pelham Line? You would now have IND-sized trains running along Westchester Avenue in the Bronx and they would defintely have a letter up front. Would people say, "But the 6 has always served Pelham Bay and it should stay"? I doubt it. And I think the same can be said if the B replaces the Q-diamond and the Q-circle stays as is.
Why would that matter?
Because people don't like radical changes. I can accept them if they were unavoidable, like those necessitated in 7/01, or if they offered a significant service improvement. This B/D swap is unecessary. So why do it?
The B switches places in both your proposal and NYCT's. Let's ignore it for now.
Your proposal moves the N. NYCT's proposal moves the D. The N has strong associations with the Sea Beach and the D has strong associations with the Brighton. Ideally, nothing would move. Both you and NYCT have identified reasons to move something.
So, which is more strongly identified with its Brooklyn line? The D ran on the Brighton from 1967 until mid-2001; since mid-2001, the D hasn't entered Brooklyn at all. Furthermore, the D was only one of two weekday Brighton services during the time, it ran in Brooklyn, and many Brighton passengers primarily rode the Q, QB, M, etc. Barring GO's and service suspensions (and 9/11 changes), the N has served the Sea Beach every single day since 1967, and it has never shared that role with another route. I would say that gives the N a stronger association with its Brooklyn line than the D.
(Personally, I'd avoid the issue entirely by leaving Brooklyn alone and swapping the letters in the Bronx. The B and D run on the same route there to begin with, and making the B a full-time local would yield an even more consistent service pattern than is currently in place.)
Your proposal has another flaw. South of 62nd/New Utrecht, the progression of lines is Brighton - Culver - Sea Beach - West End. NYCT's plan has their Manhattan routes alternate: Broadway (with added 6th Avenue weekday option) - 6th - Broadway - 6th. Someone living between the Brighton and the Culver can get to either route, even on weekends. Someone living between the Culver and the Sea Beach can get to either route. Someone living between the Sea Beach and the West End can get to either route. By your plan, the Culver - Sea Beach area will only have access to 6th. While that's certainly not the end of the world, it's not the ideal arrangement. Since the ideal arrangement is, for a change, in reach, why not grab it?
So, which is more strongly identified with its Brooklyn line? The D ran on the Brighton from 1967 until mid-2001; since mid-2001, the D hasn't entered Brooklyn at all. Furthermore, the D was only one of two weekday Brighton services during the time, it ran in Brooklyn, and many Brighton passengers primarily rode the Q, QB, M, etc. Barring GO's and service suspensions (and 9/11 changes), the N has served the Sea Beach every single day since 1967, and it has never shared that role with another route. I would say that gives the N a stronger association with its Brooklyn line than the D.
Forget 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3 years ago.
I advocate the B/N swap over the B/D swap to minimize change while accomplishing the same thing. Putting the N on the West End and the B on the Sea Beach only brings significant change to one line (Sea Beach). Leave the Brighton line alone. It's been D/Q territory for a generation now.
Your proposal has another flaw. South of 62nd/New Utrecht, the progression of lines is Brighton - Culver - Sea Beach - West End. NYCT's plan has their Manhattan routes alternate: Broadway (with added 6th Avenue weekday option) - 6th - Broadway - 6th. Someone living between the Brighton and the Culver can get to either route, even on weekends. Someone living between the Culver and the Sea Beach can get to either route. Someone living between the Sea Beach and the West End can get to either route. By your plan, the Culver - Sea Beach area will only have access to 6th. While that's certainly not the end of the world, it's not the ideal arrangement. Since the ideal arrangement is, for a change, in reach, why not grab it?
A really minor point. Broadway/6th Ave transfers are readily available at Dekalb and Pacific. None of this justifies the radical and unecessary B/D swap.
So, which is more strongly identified with its Brooklyn line? The D ran on the Brighton from 1967 until mid-2001; since mid-2001, the D hasn't entered Brooklyn at all. Furthermore, the D was only one of two weekday Brighton services during the time, it ran in Brooklyn, and many Brighton passengers primarily rode the Q, QB, M, etc. Barring GO's and service suspensions (and 9/11 changes), the N has served the Sea Beach every single day since 1967, and it has never shared that role with another route. I would say that gives the N a stronger association with its Brooklyn line than the D.
Forget 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3 years ago.
I advocate the B/N swap over the B/D swap to minimize change while accomplishing the same thing. Putting the N on the West End and the B on the Sea Beach only brings significant change to one line (Sea Beach). Leave the Brighton line alone. It's been D/Q territory for a generation now.
Your proposal has another flaw. South of 62nd/New Utrecht, the progression of lines is Brighton - Culver - Sea Beach - West End. NYCT's plan has their Manhattan routes alternate: Broadway (with added 6th Avenue weekday option) - 6th - Broadway - 6th. Someone living between the Brighton and the Culver can get to either route, even on weekends. Someone living between the Culver and the Sea Beach can get to either route. Someone living between the Sea Beach and the West End can get to either route. By your plan, the Culver - Sea Beach area will only have access to 6th. While that's certainly not the end of the world, it's not the ideal arrangement. Since the ideal arrangement is, for a change, in reach, why not grab it?
A really minor point. Broadway/6th Ave transfers are readily available at Dekalb and Pacific. None of this justifies the radical and unecessary B/D swap.
Oh stop all this Brighton Line whining! There is going to be a Brighton Express - it doesn't matter whether it's called B, D, 1, P, X, or even HH. It's still going to run express from Brighton Beach to Prospect Park, then over the Manny B. 6th Avenue and Broadway are walking distance from eachother, and if you're so averse to walking one block, then you can go to Coney Island and transfer to the West End or Culver Lines.
If someone were proposing to tear up the Brighton Express tracks, then you might have a point.
I won't. The change isn't justifiable. If it was, I'd support it.
Forget 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3 years ago.
The N didn't run on the Sea Beach 3 years ago?
Would you care to name a date when the D ran on the Brighton but the N didn't run on the Sea Beach? GO's don't count. Good luck finding one.
I can name many dates when the N ran on the Sea Beach but the D didn't run on the Brighton. Today. Yesterday. Tomorrow. 7/22/01. 7/23/01. Etc.
I can also name many dates when the D did run on the Brighton but many Brighton passengers didn't ride the D. 7/20/01. 7/19/01. 7/18/01.
Except for GO's and one month in 2001, I can't name any dates since 1967 when Sea Beach passengers rode anything other than the N. Every Sea Beach rider between 1967 and today has ridden the N.
I advocate the B/N swap over the B/D swap to minimize change while accomplishing the same thing. Putting the N on the West End and the B on the Sea Beach only brings significant change to one line (Sea Beach). Leave the Brighton line alone. It's been D/Q territory for a generation now.
The status quo on the Brighton is Q/Q. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
The status quo on the West End is M/W. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
The status quo on the Sea Beach is N. That changes only in your plan.
You're changing Brooklyn routes. NYCT is only changing two.
You think everyone remembers the pre-7/22/01 pattern? Okay, then.
The not-quite-status quo on the Brighton is D/Q. That changes only in NYCT's plan.
The not-quite-status quo on the West End is B/M. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
The not-quite-status quo on the Sea Beach is N. That changes in only in your plan.
Your plan is a greater departure from the status quo than NYCT's and an equal departure from the not-quite-status quo as NYCT's.
So, I ask again, why do you consider your plan any less radical a change than NYCT's? By any quantitative measure, your plan would appear to entail a greater change.
A really minor point. Broadway/6th Ave transfers are readily available at Dekalb and Pacific. None of this justifies the radical and unecessary B/D swap.
Actually, no, all weekend services from Pacific would run to Broadway according to your plan. DeKalb would be the only transfer point.
But I find your priorities interesting. The D absolutely must run on the Brighton line (though the N may be freely moved from its current Sea Beach). Convenience to passengers? That's lower down on the list.
Dude, lemme tell ya'....I know you're a Manhattan man but you sure sound like you have the spirit of Brooklyn in you!
The N didn't run on the Sea Beach 3 years ago?
Would you care to name a date when the D ran on the Brighton but the N didn't run on the Sea Beach? GO's don't count. Good luck finding one.
I can name many dates when the N ran on the Sea Beach but the D didn't run on the Brighton. Today. Yesterday. Tomorrow. 7/22/01. 7/23/01. Etc.
I can also name many dates when the D did run on the Brighton but many Brighton passengers didn't ride the D. 7/20/01. 7/19/01. 7/18/01.
Except for GO's and one month in 2001, I can't name any dates since 1967 when Sea Beach passengers rode anything other than the N. Every Sea Beach rider between 1967 and today has ridden the N.
Agreed. Changes would be in store for Sea Beach riders under my plan. Unlike changes for West End and Brighton riders, which collectively serve a LOT more passangers, under the proposal.
The status quo on the Brighton is Q/Q. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
The status quo on the West End is M/W. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
These aren't status quo service patterns. They are GO reroutes (albiet looooong reroutes, 3+ years).
You're changing Brooklyn routes. NYCT is only changing two.
I'm restoring D service to the Brighton line, not enacting a new pattern.
You think everyone remembers the pre-7/22/01 pattern? Okay, then.
Yes. After 34 years, the D is associated with the Brighton line, as is the Q.
The not-quite-status quo on the Brighton is D/Q. That changes only in NYCT's plan.
The D/Q have served the Brighton line for 3 decades. The current pattern is a temporary reroute.
The not-quite-status quo on the West End is B/M. That changes in both your plan and NYCT's.
Not really. The N on the West End would simulate the current W service. Only the letter changes. West End riders would easily adjust to the change....if you even want to call it a change.
The not-quite-status quo on the Sea Beach is N. That changes in only in your plan.
Agreed. But let's remember, the Sea Beach line has the lowest ridership of any of the 4 lines to Coney Island. It's service today is dismal. They'd be the one group of riders who'd welcome any change that gives than access to the Manhattan Bridge for the first time in 14 years.
Your plan is a greater departure from the status quo than NYCT's and an equal departure from the not-quite-status quo as NYCT's.
My plan affects fewer passangers with significant change. Brighton riders would see a familiar service pattern restored. West End riders would see the current service continue, but under a different letter. Sea Beach riders would see a great change, but one for the better, one they'd probably welcome.
Actually, no, all weekend services from Pacific would run to Broadway according to your plan. Dekalb would be the only transfer point.
The proposal by the TA will have the N operate via the bridge on weekends, stopping at Dekalb. 4th Ave riders can use the N or R to Dekalb for the D.
I have no great desire to restore old service patterns, only to minimize the affects of the new routing scheme. Putting the B on the Brighton and the D on the West End affects the 2 most heavily used lines thru Dekalb Ave, and it's main goal (to provide West End riders with 24/7 Manhattan service) can be acheived without affecting the Brighton at all (swapping the B & N).
and it's main goal (to provide West End riders with 24/7 Manhattan service)
Aha, now I see why you're confused.
This isn't its main goal. West End riders have had 24/7 Manhattan service since September.
Its main goal is to provide the best service possible, given the constraints of trackage and funding, collectively to West End riders, Brighton riders, Sea Beach riders, 4th Avenue riders, Broadway riders, Astoria riders, 6th Avenue riders, CPW riders, Concourse riders, and Nassau riders. (Apologies if I missed anyone.)
I don't think NYCT's proposal is perfect -- personally, I think the B, D, and N should all remain where we're used to them in Brooklyn, with adjustments made elsewhere -- but it certainly comes closer to the aforementioned main goal than what you've suggested. The only time the Sea Beach might conceivably continue to be served by a shuttle is late nights.
This isn't its main goal. West End riders have had 24/7 Manhattan service since September.
But the B/D swap in Brooklyn is meant to retain that after the north side re-opens. Restoring B service to the West End would necessitate a shuttle at least at night.
Its main goal is to provide the best service possible, given the constraints of trackage and funding, collectively to West End riders, Brighton riders, Sea Beach riders, 4th Avenue riders, Broadway riders, Astoria riders, 6th Avenue riders, CPW riders, Concourse riders, and Nassau riders. (Apologies if I missed anyone.)
The plan hardly affects service outside Brooklyn, as it remains basically unchanged. The major changes are in Brooklyn.
I don't think NYCT's proposal is perfect -- personally, I think the B, D, and N should all remain where we're used to them in Brooklyn, with adjustments made elsewhere -- but it certainly comes closer to the aforementioned main goal than what you've suggested. The only time the Sea Beach might conceivably continue to be served by a shuttle is late nights.
I disagree. Sea Beach ridership is lower than both West End and Brighton lines (lower than the Brighton by a LOT) and the service should represent that. Sea Beach riders have gotten used to the shuttle service on weekends. Maintaining that pattern with the B train would hardly matter. 4th Ave ridership doesn't justify 3 Manhattan-bound lines on the weekend, while the Brighton has only 1.
not if the B was made into the 24/7 manhattan service.
Also, I would run the N via tunnel on weekends.
Running the B to 205th local may add 3 minutes on to the ride, but saves Cpw riders 10 minutes.
J skip stop is rush hours only.
6 and 7 have far more riders than Concourse. You can run a reasonable number of expresses and a reasonable number of locals. On the Concourse, you'd either spend lots of extra money, or else have very few locals (every 16 minutes max).
But still, you have 6 Ms and 6 Js every hour middays, so with half skipping those stations you still have 6 tph. On the Concourse, you only have 8 tph, so if half skip the local station, you'd only have 4 tph there. Currently, only Lefferts and the Rockaways have less than 6 tph middays, and they certainly aren't happy to have such long headways.
Lefferts was probably better off when it was served through the Lexington and Fulton Els.
I wouldn't say that. It has express service to Manhattan 7 days a week, with 6 tph during rush hours, and at any time if you know the schedule you can at least know when they depart from Lefferts.
Heading back in non-rush hours you may of course have quite a wait for a Lefferts train.
Service that ran to only Park Row was better than the present A line? doubt that.....
OK. With enough money, all kinds of great services are possible.
The NYCT plan maintains both the D and the Q as full-time routes, as they are now. (The Q is one of the few affected routes that will remain exactly as it is now, 24/7, modulo service to Stillwell.) It would hardly make sense to run a West End shuttle but to have two Brighton services in the middle of the night.
The plan hardly affects service outside Brooklyn, as it remains basically unchanged. The major changes are in Brooklyn.
Actually, the major changes are in Manhattan, with repercussions in Brooklyn. South of DeKalb, not a single track will have changed (except near the Stillwell project). The reopening of the north side bridge tracks will give Brooklyn riders direct access to a greater variety of Manhattan services.
I disagree. Sea Beach ridership is lower than both West End and Brighton lines (lower than the Brighton by a LOT) and the service should represent that. Sea Beach riders have gotten used to the shuttle service on weekends. Maintaining that pattern with the B train would hardly matter. 4th Ave ridership doesn't justify 3 Manhattan-bound lines on the weekend, while the Brighton has only 1.
(Amazing! Sea Beach riders have gotten used to a shuttle service that has been in place for six months, and Sea Beach riders will easily adapt to a letter and routing that differ from the letter and routing they've had since 1967 or earlier, while Brighton riders still think their line is served by the D and would be hopelessly confused if that were changed. You must think Brighton line riders are total idiots!)
How many times to I have to explain this? Broadway has demand for three weekend services. Add one on 6th and that's four services pointing towards DeKalb from the north. Of course, there are four services pointing towards DeKalb from the south. They might as well be connected, even if some points in the middle are overserved as a result.
None of the Brooklyn lines were weekend shuttles when both sides of the bridge were open. None of the Brooklyn lines were weekend shuttles even when only the south side was open, but that was only because the B was needed at Queensbridge. Why should there be a weekend shuttle now?
I don't advocate running the Q 24/7. In my plan, the current diamond Q would be retained, with the D returning to it's pre 7/22/01 route.
Actually, the major changes are in Manhattan, with repercussions in Brooklyn. South of DeKalb, not a single track will have changed (except near the Stillwell project). The reopening of the north side bridge tracks will give Brooklyn riders direct access to a greater variety of Manhattan services.
The major changes are NOT in Manhattan. All changes are limited to the Broadway line. Let's remember the post 7/22/01 service patterns are temporary reroutes, not a permanent plan which needs to be retained. Any change which restores B/D service to Brooklyn is NOT a change, but a restoration. As for Brooklyn, the B/D swap and the continued Q are major changes.
Amazing! Sea Beach riders have gotten used to a shuttle service that has been in place for six months, and Sea Beach riders will easily adapt to a letter and routing that differ from the letter and routing they've had since 1967 or earlier, while Brighton riders still think their line is served by the D and would be hopelessly confused if that were changed. You must think Brighton line riders are total idiots!)
I never said Brighton line riders were idiots. My plan is meant to MINIMIZE the amount of people who have to deal with changes. Under my plan, Sea Beach riders would have to undergo major change. Given the lower ridership of the Sea Beach compared to Brighton and West End lines, combined to the overall crappiness of current service (Fred, that's your cue), it is my assertion that Sea Beach riders would WELCOME whatever change as an overall service improvement.
How many times to I have to explain this? Broadway has demand for three weekend services. Add one on 6th and that's four services pointing towards DeKalb from the north. Of course, there are four services pointing towards DeKalb from the south. They might as well be connected, even if some points in the middle are overserved as a result.
Broadway doesn't need express service for inter-Manhattan travel. 2 locals will suffice.
None of the Brooklyn lines were weekend shuttles when both sides of the bridge were open. None of the Brooklyn lines were weekend shuttles even when only the south side was open, but that was only because the B was needed at Queensbridge. Why should there be a weekend shuttle now?
The city instituted a West End shuttle on weekends after 7/22/01. People survived. A shuttle on the lesser-used Sea Beach line would cause even less problems. You don't need 3 service from 4th Ave going into Manhattan on weekends.
No change at all. Last time I checked, Brooklyn is East of the East River. In Brooklyn, you will still have:
- Brighton Local
- Brighton Express
- West End
- Sea Beach
- 4th Avenue Local
For anyone exclusively concerned with Brooklyn, the letters are absolutely irrelevant.
All bar the Brighton Express will have weekend service - personally, I think the Brighton Express could do with weekend service, but I can see it's not the first priority. The only thing I'd change about the TA's plan is to make the V train run on weekends, extended to the Brighton Express.
Broadway doesn't need express service for inter-Manhattan travel.
Even more so, nor does 6th Avenue.
A shuttle on the lesser-used Sea Beach line would cause even less problems.
Apart from it obstructing at least the West End train and probably the 4th Avenue Local (aren't the express tracks used as yard trackage at weekends?) whilst it is emptied of passengers and relays. The only lines which could easily become shuttles are the West End Line and the Brighton Line (yes, suicide by operating 2 car trains from Fulton/Franklin - CI). I don't think it's necessary to make any line a shuttle. Nor does the TA.
For anyone exclusively concerned with Brooklyn, the letters are absolutely irrelevant.
People don't think like that. They think "D train, N train", etc. Many people don't even know the names for the lines they use. It's not irrelevant.
Even more so, nor does 6th Avenue.
True, but the infrastructure on 6th Ave doesn't lend itself to running all trains local.
Apart from it obstructing at least the West End train and probably the 4th Avenue Local (aren't the express tracks used as yard trackage at weekends?) whilst it is emptied of passengers and relays. The only lines which could easily become shuttles are the West End Line and the Brighton Line (yes, suicide by operating 2 car trains from Fulton/Franklin - CI). I don't think it's necessary to make any line a shuttle. Nor does the TA.
The Sea Beach shuttle would run express to Pacific St and use the Dekalb Ave bypass tracks to relay. The West End N would run local north of 36th St. There would be NO obstruction issues.
Perhaps the TA doesn't want to tell Sea Beach riders that their temporary weekend shuttle arrangement would become permanent. Their support for running it into Manhattan is based on politics, not necessity. I've ridden the Sea Beach on weekends. It's ridership is a joke compared to West End or Brighton ridership. I see the Sea Beach shuttle as no more inconvenient as the M shuttle is on weekends.
Maybe the TA should put the Triplexes from the museum on it at weekends then - that way both you and Fred will be happy.
I'm still a relative newcomer here. But I'll help Mr. Fred out with this. NO SHUTTLE TRAINS ON THE SEA BEACH!! You can't compare it to the M shuttle. The N train can't help that it's current ridership is relatively light compared to the Brighton. I love the line. But its' stations are relics from the 1930s or so. Even the West End has better facilities. Making the Sea Beach a shuttle, whenever, is a penny wise but pound foolish idea. I don't care what some people say....it's a valid trunk line. With great possibilities for future growth. If the F line can run its' route 24/7, the N should be operated the same way.
Also....NO SWITCHING OF TRAIN NAMES, PLEASE! Think of another way to achieve your goals. The name change idea is too drastic.
You can have the same train names, but then you'll have confusing service patterns. You can't have the same names and simple patterns, because the unavailability of Queensbridge as a terminal changes everything.
The 2 obvious candidates: (a) switch the D and B or (b) have the West End B be orange (6th Ave) on weekdays and yellow (Broadway) on weekends.
For that, just run the W full-time and the B weekdays. Of course, that means the M would have to go somewhere else.
And a weekend (M) to Park Row would have been so fun...
It would certainly also solve the 6th Avenue Local tunnel to nowhere problem (the Southbound one (V)). It would be kinda weird seeing the (M) go orange though!
It's not a problem. There is a very valid point to running trains that turn short of brooklyn.
Just a cause of empty trains taking up slots on 6th Avenue...
There is a very valid point to running trains that turn short of brooklyn.
You could've said much the same about 21/Queensbridge as a terminal.
V trains are empty? Where do you get that information from? (Straphangers' and Greenpoint residents' postings don't count.)
Last time I rode a V (under 6th Ave, not in Queens) I couldn't get a seat.
You obviously didn't get on Southbound at W 4th St or Broadway - Lafayette.
Every train is empty as it nears it's terminus.
Exactly my point. 2nd Avenue needn't be the terminus of the V train. Chambers St come 2004 needn't be the terminus of the M train. Why run trains emptying towards termini when they could be filling up instead, creating extra revenue?
Obviously. But it was quite full southbound till 14th.
You could've said much the same about 21/Queensbridge as a terminal.
Are you suggesting that either Broadway bklyn or the Culver line are experiencing overcrowding? Because that would be the only reason to send the V to Brooklyn. As it stands, unless express Culver Service is instituted, there is no need for V trains to head to Brooklyn on any option. But Queens Blvd had E/F trains packed, and now V trains will relieve some of that crowding.
From your arguments, one could determine that it would make sense to send the E train into Brooklyn along with the A/C.....
No, I am saying that trains are naturally undercrowded in one direction near stub ends of routes. Having unnecessary stub ends in the CBD is pointless. The MTA propose to chop back the M train to Chambers, the V train already terminates at 2nd Avenue (and had loading figures last I heard of 52% in rush hours, so it could afford to go down to 480'). The merger of the V train with the M train is an obvious step forward.
As it stands, unless express Culver Service is instituted, there is no need for V trains to head to Brooklyn on any option.
I'm not arguing for the V train to go to the Culver Line.
But Queens Blvd had E/F trains packed, and now V trains will relieve some of that crowding.
Exactly - it works as a line at one end. So does the M. Put them together and you have a proper line.
From your arguments, one could determine that it would make sense to send the E train into Brooklyn along with the A/C.....
Not at all. Elementry math makes that not work in rush hours, and there is nothing the E train could easily be hooked up to to change it into a through route. I don't know what you're thinking with that idea.
I agree completely. The V just stubs basically near they want the M train to at Chambers. Cutting the M to Chambers makes it almost a useless line. Combining the M and the V would make a solid usefull route, and would not need any new trainsets. The only thing they would have to do is trade the V's R46's for 60 foot cars. They might as well give it the R40, R42's, R40M's displaced by the R143's. ENY is already equiped to handle them anyway.
On that note, I wonder why the proposed NYCT plan for the MB still has Q trains terminating at 57th & 7th. Why not extend them to Astoria and have some R trains terminate at Whitehall in the rush hour? Then they wouldn't need the W.
R service could be increased, but that would create problems at Continental unless V service is reduced.
Thus, while the post I reply to clearly means to minimize transition difficulties (I take it this is why Chris advocates swapping the B with the N instead of the D in Brooklyn. Would the B remain a 6th Avenue service in that scheme, though? Express or Local?). This, I think, is crucial for exchanging the B for the D does not alter the Manhattan trunk line used (both 6th Avenue), but an exchange of the B for the N does (6th Avenue and Broadway, respectively), thus my query. If I have misunderstood Chris's plan, then I apologize in advance.
Um, what about 6th Avenue?
And Broadway is hardly a minor detail.
Let's remember the post 7/22/01 service patterns are temporary reroutes, not a permanent plan which needs to be retained. Any change which restores B/D service to Brooklyn is NOT a change, but a restoration. As for Brooklyn, the B/D swap and the continued Q are major changes.
Both sides of the bridge have not been open at the same time (except for three months in 1990) since 1986. Everything since then has been temporary.
It makes as much sense to use the pre-7/22/01 routings as a baseline as to use the post-7/22/01 routings as a baseline. Both are irrelevant. All that's relevant is 1986, and 1986 was long enough ago that both ridership patterns and passenger expectations have shifted. A brand new service pattern, based on current and projected ridership needs, is warranted. Regular riders will adapt within a week.
I never said Brighton line riders were idiots. My plan is meant to MINIMIZE the amount of people who have to deal with changes. Under my plan, Sea Beach riders would have to undergo major change. Given the lower ridership of the Sea Beach compared to Brighton and West End lines, combined to the overall crappiness of current service (Fred, that's your cue), it is my assertion that Sea Beach riders would WELCOME whatever change as an overall service improvement.
But this is not an improvement over what was available to them until six months ago. They had full-time access to Manhattan via the tunnel -- not their ideal routing, but at least it got them somewhere. You're only giving them direct access to Manhattan on weekdays, also not via their ideal routing. NYCT's plan, OTOH, restores full-time Manhattan access, via their ideal route all times except nights.
Broadway doesn't need express service for inter-Manhattan travel. 2 locals will suffice.
Not at NYCT's weekend loading guidelines.
The city instituted a West End shuttle on weekends after 7/22/01. People survived. A shuttle on the lesser-used Sea Beach line would cause even less problems. You don't need 3 service from 4th Ave going into Manhattan on weekends.
I never said that 4th Avenue needs three services. I said that Manhattan needs four services pointed in the direction of DeKalb, and there are four Brooklyn branches pointing in the direction of DeKalb. We might as well connect the dots, even if that leads to more 4th Avenue service than necessary.
There are a lot of segments of the system that have more service than they need -- e.g., the outer portions of most lines. Such is life.
In support of that, I was just talking to a friend from Astoria. He says rush hour trains are getting increasingly crowded in the last 2 years as Astoria gets more and more yuppified. There aren't more people there, but an increasing percentage of those who do live there commute to midtown Manhattan.
Yes it does. Pre-7/22/01, when Broadway had only the N and R local services, it wasn't enough. Both trains were jammed north of Canal. The Q has helped here, although R and W trains still tend to be standing room-only. There needs to be three weekend services on Broadway. Going back to having only the N and the R is a HUGE mistake, especially with the south tracks available for service. Let's not do that. Let's leave as much of the pre-7/22/01 service plan in the past as we can. I'm surprised you're not suggesting putting the Q back on 6th Avenue.
I'll surprise you by speculating and wondering in this post then. Just for fun, and maybe even for ideas. Why not run the Q as Astoria Local/Broadway Local/Montague Street Tunnel/Brighton Local at all times and contemplate forgetting about the W, or maybe implementing it as Broadway Express/Manhattan Bridge South/West End Local?
- The B/D swap in Brooklyn is too radical and makes no sense. Swapping the B & N and reducing the B to a shuttle makes more sense. There's no advantage of making the 24/7 Brighton line the Q.
Except that West End riders now have 24/7 service to Manhattan. Going back to shuttle service service during nights, possibly also weekends, is something they're going to fight. The D takes care of that. The N could do that too if they swap the B and N, but that's a change that doesn't need to be made.
And what's wrong with a 24/7 Q on the Brighton Line? What doesn't make sense is four weekend services on Central Park West. That would give CPW more service than the nearby, and much more heavily-used, 7th Avenue IRT. Under this plan the weekday-only Q-diamond gets replaced by the weekday-only B. The 24/7 W gets replaced by the 24/7 D. And Broadway still has three weekend services, which it does need.
Except that West End riders now have 24/7 service to Manhattan. Going back to shuttle service service during nights, possibly also weekends, is something they're going to fight. The D takes care of that. The N could do that too if they swap the B and N, but that's a change that doesn't need to be made
Yes it does, if you want to preserve 24/7 service to Manhattan via West End. It's less radical than the B/D swap. Why confuse Brighton riders for no reason to satisfy 4th Ave riders when other changes that are confined to 4th Ave exist?
Why would Brighton line riders be confused? There's already no D train there now. Before November 1967, there was also no D train there. If the letters really mattered all that much, the W would be called the B and the Q-circle would be called the D, both in a yellow circle. Wait, that was already done once before, from 1986 to 1988, the last time the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge was closed. Now THAT was confusion. You take the orange D to 34th Street, then you transfer to the yellow D. You can't tell me that didn't confuse anyone.
Why would Brighton line riders be confused?
B train? D train going elsewhere? That'll confuse 'em, unecessarily IMHO. The current double Q service pattern is a temporary reroute that'll be easily forgotten.
(B train? D train going elsewhere? That'll confuse 'em, unecessarily IMHO. The current double Q service pattern is a temporary reroute that'll be easily forgotten. )
You sure paint a very unflattering portrait of Brighton riders' abilities to permanently learn new information. As I mentioned in another post, riders on over a dozen other lines have had to learn new stuff in the last 25 years.
Riders will adjust, so what makes the most sense from an operational standpoint is what should be implemented.
So why not tell it to Brooklyn instead?
Elias
That's what I would have thought. Therefore, I am surprised that the draft plan proposes 4 Broadway services weekdays and 3 on weekends.
For weekdays, there is a stingier alternative than the proposed one: extend the Q to Astoria in rush hours only to supplement the N, and run 10 R tph to Whitehall rush hours only, with 7-8 south of Whitehall. Then there wouldn't be any despaerate need for the W.
Weekends, they could run two BMT services in Manhattan, and run them both via the Montague. It would work, though people would be annoyed.
I'm not advocating these stingy alternatives, just saying that the TA seems to be in a very slightly expansive mood. Of course, maybe they'll end up with the stingy plan.
Running brighton service through the tunnel on the weekends would drive 25% of the riders from heading into the city or drive in instead.
That would cost far more then running the service over the bridge. Lower manahattan is already served by IRT 7th ave and lex, not to mention the 8th ave line.
It is in the best interest of brighton, 4th ave, west end to have the trains go over the bridge into areas where people go on weekends. There is almost no place people go in lower manhattan south of cannal/grand street on weekends.
Why? Brighton riders could go to 6th Ave instead.
Alternatively, NYCT could decide to run 2 BMT services: one bridge and 1 tunnel. My main point is just that a stingy NYCT could make do with 2 Broadway services at 8 tph each on weekends without causing overcrowding, and almost certainly without losing riders.
For many years there were only 2 Broadway services on weekends. It wasn't fun but it worked. I am surprised and gratified that they are leaning toward 3.
Running brighton service through the tunnel on the weekends would drive 25% of the riders from heading into the city or drive in instead.
That would cost far more then running the service over the bridge. Lower manahattan is already served by IRT 7th ave and lex, not to mention the 8th ave line.
It is in the best interest of brighton, 4th ave, west end to have the trains go over the bridge into areas where people go on weekends. There is almost no place people go in lower manhattan south of cannal/grand street on weekends.
The lowest crew cost could be optained by operating trains OPTO during the weekend and after 10 PM proving express service over the bridge.
OPTO is the way to go. As I stated before OPTO with in Cab flat panal monitors is the best way to go because it reduces the dwell time issue.
Job loss of such an implimentation would be over time = no layoffs to impliment such a system. The only people who are effected are the big wigs at the union who have less union due's to waiste on themselves.
A very worthwhile opinion, but not relevant to this thread. First of all, this thread is related to Spring 2004. Running OPTO trains into Manhattan (as opposed to branch shuttles) wil take much longer to implement.
In addition, Manhattan service on middays and weekends during the day needs full length trains. OPTO wouldn't save any money; you'd have to run twice the trains to serve the people. Running OPTO at night in Manhattan could save money, but again has virtually to do with this thread.
It is very expensive to maintain a large fleet of express buses that run one direction viertualy empty. Calculate the cost of running the express bus system.
"In addition, Manhattan service on middays and weekends during the day needs full length trains. OPTO wouldn't save any money; you'd have to run twice the trains to serve the people. Running OPTO at night in Manhattan could save money, but again has virtually to do with this thread. "
During midday and weekend you would not need to run twice as many trains per hiur. On the brighton for instance about 65% of the current number of cars that are currently run with full length trains will be needed.
OPTO in this case would save a nice amount of operating costs. The real advantage is reducing headways and drawing more people into the transit system. All in all revenue would increase and cost would be lower.
More people come into the city, the greater amount of economic activity. The main purpose of mass transit development.
As it realates to this thread. Such a system could be partially deployed by the time the manny B is open in 2004. Many brighton line stations have portions of there platforms already covered by CCTV camera's. Stataion platforms renovations on brighton local stations is set to begin.
The reduced cost associated with such a deployment on the brigton could result in added service in another areas such not turning the sea beach into a shuttle on the weakend
Running brighton service through the tunnel on the weekends would drive 25% of the riders from heading into the city or drive in instead.
That would cost far more then running the service over the bridge. Lower manahattan is already served by IRT 7th ave and lex, not to mention the 8th ave line.
It is in the best interest of brighton, 4th ave, west end to have the trains go over the bridge into areas where people go on weekends. There is almost no place people go in lower manhattan south of cannal/grand street on weekends.
The lowest crew cost could be optained by operating trains OPTO during the weekend and after 10 PM proving express service over the bridge.
Maybe Lawrence St and Court St deserve headways better than 8 minutes, but many other stations with as much or more traffic have those headways outside of rush hours. Let me name names (as I did in another post where the lower Broadway stations were being discussed):
On weekdays: East Broadway, Delancey (F), 57th (F), Roosevelt Island, WTC (E), 50th Eastbound (E). On weekends also: Grand St (D, as proposed), Second Ave., 14th (F), 23rd (F), 5th Ave (E), Lexington (E). Also various others outside the CBD; I'm less sure of my facts there. Certainly 81st (C), probably Hillside Ave.
This is the similiar to what i heard.With the exception of the W running from whitehall to 57st.That would lead to major trouble up town with the n having to switch to the local track at 34th st and the w having to switch to the express after either 42st or 49st
I think the N will probably switch to express just after 57th St (or before 57th if the track is unoccupied by a Q.
(With the exception of the W running from whitehall to 57st.)
The draft proposal has the W running from Astoria to Whitehall.
If you had a liquid lunch with that person "in the know", then it sure was NOT Train Dude, he had some premilnary information about the 2004 service plan in an earlier post, and it mentioned that the W line will be "..in the books", meaning that line will no longer be needed. Train Dude's information is more accurate, but it can and will change to meet the needs of riders.
You must go back to that person and get some PROFF on this, this is the worst service plan I've ever read. A useless W line from 57/7 to Whitehall, no information as to which line (presumbly on the N line), can skip Dekalb, double crossing at 34th st (W and N cross paths, not allowed in Manhattan routes, only allowed at East 180th st and the old Kings Highway service pattern on the Culver Line).
AND THE WORST THING OF ALL: No Astoria service except rush hours and late nights on the N Line.
"AND THE WORST THING OF ALL: No Astoria service except rush hours and late nights on the N Line. "
That isn't what is going to happen.
The N will run from Astoria 24/7. Normal weekday hours (including rush) via Broadway Express. Late nights local in Manhattan (and via tunnel to Brooklyn). Weekends - Local in Manhattan and via bridge to Brooklyn (probably switch over before Canal).
Well SCHNIZIT! Just went over to Harry's Place and saw the "OFFICIAL" plans for the Manny B changes and there goes the D train I used to work on - the former Brighton/Bronx Express has become the Dubya train. Good thing I moved out of the city and left the TA 30 years ago, I'd be having a coronary right about now. :)
http://www.nycrail.com/bmt/2004_service_plan.htm
Schnizit! My homey train has been ripped out of the Brighton line. And what exactly IS a "west end" anyway?
But that doesn't make sense! Why would the TA want to completely change B, D, and Q service after the bridge was fully restored? Wouldn't it be easier (and make more sense) to just have B and D service the way it was prior to 7-22-01, with the exception of the Q, which should be todays Q express and the N going over the bridge?
Look closely, it says the N will be on the Bridge (I hear hysterical screaming out in California right now) and will be the Broadway Express. Whatever they mean by "Sea Beach Express", I don't know, but I'm sure it really means 4th Ave express.
As for the M, that sucks, it should go at least to Broad St, although 9th Ave would be better. They cut of the entire Fulton Street transfer for M riders, making it much more of a project to get to either the 8th Ave line or the 7th/Bway line.
I also don't understand the B/D switch, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I do wonder though what the equipment will be though. The west end was usually R40 slants when the bridge was open, and was 100% slant when the B was there last time. It will be interesting to see if the D will become slants on the west end, or if the Brighton will see the slants on the B. And if not either will be slants, I wonder which line will have the R40's.
Well, here's my theory on car assignments:
D - R68A's
B - R40 slants and R40M's
Q - R68's
N - same as now
M - same as now
I hope that whatever becomes the brighton express has slants or R68A's
R32 - Sea Beach Express
Recent tradition does call for R-40's on the Brighton express, which would mean a return to R-40's on the CPW local and the new institution of R-40's on the Concourse.
OTOH, the B and C swapped north terminals specifically so the D's R-68's and the B's R-68A's could use the facilities at Concourse yard. Perhaps, then, the R-40's will end up on the Brighton local.
That would be a sad day.
Speaking of Brighton, I was in Brooklyn yesterday. I started off by taking the #7 to 74 St-cars 9651 off at Woodside to see ticket price from Woodside-Flatbush-I would have to pay a double fare so I went back up to the 7 and hopped on 2087. Went downstairs to catch the E to Archer and Sutphin to try and catch the M7. Instead an M-3 pulled in. I hopped on 9771. Before we went into the tunnel, saw DE 30 416 167 in fresh coat of paint, 398, old school car 2966, and a few other engines sitting there. Going in the opposite direction was u guessed it the M7. After huffing and puffing for a few seconds, I wound up in ENY where I saw 8286-8283-8225-8228 R143 The Red-Eyed Hippo go by. Boy are those cars filthy!!! Anyways after getting to Flatbush Ave I boarded a few buses. (See BusTalk) It was when I got to Smith and 9th when I saw another train. Rode 6106 with about 5 cops on the 1 car alone-never felt more safe. 2 cops were in 6107. I took about 3 pics at Smith and 9th before hopping on 6106. Got off at Ave U where again boarded a few buses. (Again see BusTalk). I was able to get to Sheepshead Bay Station where I saw R40M 4527 on the Q Express. I figure that since the terminal was only a stop away, I'll wait for it to come back and I'll take that. After about 6 pics, in came 4527. Moving kinda slow to Kings Hwy. Once we were about to pull out of the station-we tripped in an emergency. Something I heard the driver say about 4459. 5 minutes later we were proceeding.
I took all the way to the last stop but after 42 St, we were stuck with trains ahead pulling in and out of 57 and 7 Ave. A R40 Slant N, An R46 passed us. Then an R40M showed up on the N behind the R46 R.
It was 4522. At 57 and 7 Ave, I hopped out of 4527 and into 4522.
4522 was better by far than 4527. Got off at QBP and took 9686 on the 7 local. Since I only had a few pics left in my camera, I decided to hop off at 46 St and kill the film on some redbirds and that's what I did. Then hopped on the next local 9583 and took it to Woodside where I am getting my film developed now as we speak.
BTW My set of R40Ms on the Q Express was the only set that I saw there. Otherwise nothing but R40 Slants.
#4527 Q Brighton Beach Express
#4522 N Sea Beach Local
BTW the R32 E train that I had was 3539.
#3539 E Queens Blvd Express
Finally, it may be safe to ride the Brighton Line on weekends again!
That's one folks will need to ask of the EmTeeYay ... JUST like a certain person from California who ain't going to ride whatever whenever except for a visit, I really don't care, my own attitude is whatever works best for those who *USE* the subways every day is what REALLY matters ... breaks my heart of course having worked the Concourse/Brighton line as a conductor and motorman, but whatever floats their boat has to suffice for me, I'm *NOT* a "customer" and thus I won't be offended if this makes better SENSE than the routings I came to know, love and work.
But if it isn't really practical for those who would USE the reconstituted lines, then NOW is the time to beech at the MTA before they actually *DO* this ...
What about them "straphanger" folks? Oh yeah, they're counting bells and whistles and paper cups. :)
I agree with Sea Beach Express, that plan makes no sense. It does not seem to take into account ridership patterns. I hope the MTA do not go through with that plan. I got more to say but I gotta run.
( It does not seem to take into account ridership patterns.)
Huh? There are name changes here but what changes to actual routes? The only one I see is that you can no longer take a train direct from Concourse to Brighton except in rush hours (and then it's a local in the Bronx and Manhattan). This is not exactly a major ridership pattern.
The basic ridership patterns are preserved:
West End to 6th Ave
Brighton to 6th and Broadway
Sea Beach to Broadway via bridge
Astoria to Broadway local (plus some express service)
Bay Ridge to Continental local
West End to Nassau St rush hours
The one really unfair thing I see is the M is reduced to a shuttle in the evenings and doesn't go to Fulton midday.
AIM,
I should have been more specific. What I meant was that popular choices in ridership patterns is not reflected in this proposed plan. The old D route was a pretty popular 24/7 route, the B West End route on the other hand is not that popular at night which is why it did not run into Manhattan at late night. Why switch this routing now? The 6th Ave (D) train was overcrowded on the Brighton when it was a Brighton Express, the old Q (or QB), which was then a Brighton Local, was not nearly as crowded. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have the less popular B'way line run Brighton Express while the more popular 6th Ave train run Brighton Local. This I think would balance the load somewhat between the Brighton Express and local. The M train is not well used as a 4th Ave/West End train. When the M ran on the Brighton is was a surprisingly better-used route during rush hours. Why keep the M train on the West End? Brooklynites generally favor two Broadway locals into lower Manhattan (this would become important when the PATH connection at Cortlandt is reestablished) why run only one Broadway Local train? The W could take the M's place as the 4th Ave/West End Local. In my opinion, the only solid part about this proposed plan is how they plan to run the N.
It seems like the Broadway Local gets shafted on weekends, unless headways on the R are reduced. There would be the Broadway Local R then, but no W. The N on weekends seems to go via the Manhattan Bridge South and then switches to the Broadway Local, meaning that only stops north of Prince Street would be made.
Like I said, as an out of towner, it's not right for me to have any opinion on how subways are routed (regulars here know that I *NEVER* comment on which train goes where or over the bridge or in the rathole, or whatever ... bottom line to YOU FOLKS is "does it work?"
If not, you may have noted that the document CLEARLY stated "FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY" ... and unlike so many of the "eyes only" things *I* have seen, this one actually made it into print.
TIME TO DISCUSS ... I just figured it'd be helpful in that discussion among those of you who may be affected that this is nothing more than just another of them "trial balloons" until it becomes OFFICIAL. Balloons have a tendency to go "pop" when they take buckshot. :)
I understand your point; clearly nothing is definite yet. I merely sought to point out something that I saw that hadn't been noted here is all. If I came off as suggesting anything to the contrary, that was not my suggestion. After all, ever since the 63rd Street Tunnel opened there was supposedly a plan to bring the Q into Queens (beyond 21st Street, I mean, into the Queens Boulevard line), but that has not taken hold.
So, as for a "does it work" question, I have some concerns about whether or not weekend service on the Broadway Local was adequate, and mentioned some means by which the MTA might seek to do so, if they have not done so already.
Agreed, this is probably my biggest quibble with the proposal, and the one most easily corrected. North of 36th, the N will be functioning exactly as the W functions today -- except that it won't serve lower Manhattan on weekends. Unless headways are reduced substantially, the R will be overburdened. Also, passengers trying to get from Canal to Prince and 8th will have to play the guess-the-platform game.
Also, passengers trying to get from Canal to Prince and 8th will have to play the guess-the-platform game.
I HATE that game. I always seem to lose. Missed the R, caught the N, got stuck behind R moving at 10MPH, got off at 14, tried to catch a Q, nothing came, ended up on next R, got passed by a Q, it cuts in front of R, and I got so PO'd I literally forgot where I was going.
"MTA ... going the OTHER way." :)
(Unless headways are reduced substantially, the R will be overburdened.
I don't think so. Sure, people want to go to lower Manhattan on the weekends, but not in huge quantities. It'll be a miserable wait, but I don't think the trains will be packed to overcrowding. Also, with 12 tph over the bridge, few people will take the tunnel route to go between Manhattan and Brooklyn. So most of the R's capacity will be available for within-Manhattan traffic.
(Also, passengers trying to get from Canal to Prince and 8th will have to play the guess-the-platform game.)
True, but if the N went via the tunnel, you'd have a different guessing game at Dekalb: do I take the N that's here now, or do I wait, possibly 10 minutes, for a Q over the bridge.
Unlike CPW, where the express saves 3 minutes, the "express" (i.e., bridge) between Dekalb and Canal saves 8 minutes. In this latter case, it's worth having more express service and being stingy with the local because the express saves SO much time.
Keep in mind that you're the one proposing the change, not me. On weekends, there are currently two 4th Avenue - Broadway locals and one Brighton local - Broadway express. I'm suggesting that that pattern be left alone. You're suggesting that one of the two locals become an express south of Canal. It's up to you to justify the change.
The current service pattern was instituted on 9/8/02. If you're right, then either the current service pattern is in error and the W right now should be running over the bridge on weekends, or you expect that lower Manhattan ridership will have dropped substantially between 9/8/02 and early 2004 (or, alternatively, that, even though one bridge service suffices for now, even two -- the Q and the D -- won't suffice next year).
And if the N ran over the bridge, it probably wouldn't stop at DeKalb at all. Passengers waiting at DeKalb wouldn't have the N as an option -- they'd have to pick between the Q and the R (and maybe the D).
(Keep in mind that you're the one proposing the change, not me.)
I'm not proposing anything. I'm sort-of justifying (with qualms) part of a plan allegedly under discussion within NYCT. I did after all say that a single local will result in miserable waits below canal.
(On weekends, there are currently two 4th Avenue - Broadway locals and one Brighton local - Broadway express. I'm suggesting that that pattern be left alone.)
You have a very good point there. Why are 2 locals and 1 express fine now but not in 2004, especially since the weekend change in 2004 will be the ADDITION of a West End-6th Ave EXPRESS?
(And if the N ran over the bridge, it probably wouldn't stop at DeKalb at all.)
I thought 4th Ave-Bridge expresses only skip Dekalb in rush hours.
My actual feeling about weekend service on Broadway is that there's no good answer. 2 locals and 1 express provide decent service for downtown, at the expense of 8 minutes each for Brooklynites who just want to get to midtown fast. 1 local and 2 expresses really makes life miserable for those who want to go downtown. 2 locals and 2 expresses (or even 10 tph on the R) would be great, but NYCT isn't going to pay for that. Maybe, maybe (pure optimism here), NYCT will increase the frequency of R trains once they are the only locals below Canal.
I'm not proposing anything. I'm sort-of justifying (with qualms) part of a plan allegedly under discussion within NYCT. I did after all say that a single local will result in miserable waits below canal.
Sorry. I know you made a similar suggestion for weekday midday service, and I thought you had adopted this proposal as your own.
I thought 4th Ave-Bridge expresses only skip Dekalb in rush hours.
In recent service patterns, all 4th Avenue-bridge expresses have bypassed DeKalb whenever they've run, except perhaps for a few shoulder specials. The W currently bypasses DeKalb whenever it runs over the bridge. Before 7/22/01, the B bypassed DeKalb whenever it wasn't a West End shuttle. (On 7/21/01, shortly before midnight, I was aboard an R-40 B train that went through the bypass.)
Stopping at DeKalb requires first merging with 4th Avenue locals and then merging with Brighton-bridge trains (NB), so it's avoided. I think it would still be worth strongly considering in certain cases. Specifically, any time that no Brighton trains run to 6th Avenue, 6th Avenue trains should stop at DeKalb even if it would be easier to bypass. In the posted proposal, I'd have D trains stop at DeKalb on weekends. Ideally, they'd be scheduled to reach DeKalb shortly after Q trains NB and shortly before Q trains SB.
My actual feeling about weekend service on Broadway is that there's no good answer. 2 locals and 1 express provide decent service for downtown, at the expense of 8 minutes each for Brooklynites who just want to get to midtown fast. 1 local and 2 expresses really makes life miserable for those who want to go downtown. 2 locals and 2 expresses (or even 10 tph on the R) would be great, but NYCT isn't going to pay for that. Maybe, maybe (pure optimism here), NYCT will increase the frequency of R trains once they are the only locals below Canal.
That's certainly an option I'd consider reasonable. It might result in the loss of weekend G service on Queens Boulevard, though.
But I'm assuming that probably won't happen.
From the Brooklyn end, I think one service via each of the routes out of DeKalb should suffice on weekends. Let's say we map the West End to the 6th Avenue express, the Brighton to the Broadway express, and the 4th Avenue/Bay Ridge to the Broadway local. We still have two problems: first, Manhattan needs two Broadway locals; second, we haven't mapped the Sea Beach to anything. We could let the Sea Beach remain a weekend shuttle to Pacific and run the W (Astoria-Whitehall local) on weekends -- but Whitehall and Pacific are so close that the two might as well be linked up. Sea Beach passengers are no worse off than with a shuttle, but on the off-chance that any of them are going to lower Broadway, they have the bonus of direct service.
BMT ridership, except on the Brighton, is pretty low in Brooklyn, but it's pretty high in Manhattan. As long as Brooklyn passengers have easy transfer opportunities, it's more important to get the Manhattan routes right.
This service plan has many of the features many if not most of us liked in prior discussions. The Q-Broadway is full time of the Brighton, the Sixth Avenue express is full time on the West End, and there is a 6th Avenue route swap so the same trains run generally the same routes at the same time. I proposed to swap on the Concourse, making the B the full time service there. This would swap in Brooklyn.
My disagreements are these. You have two trains on the H tracks and one on the AB tracks nights and weekends. I'd put the N in the rathole at those times, to provide more service to lower Manhattan and balance the bridge loading. Guess Fred won that one.
And I proposed extending the Z down the Brighton to increase service, both on the Brighton, which is crowded, and to Lower Manhattan. Perhaps they'll go to more than 9 tph each on the D and Q, but they have to do something -- Brighton riders have suffered the most crowding over the past 22 years due to the loss of bridge capacity.
The W is the surprise. If they need additional service to Astoria, why not more N trains? I believe people have shunned the Sea Beach due to slow service, and that ridership will increase when it's going over the bridge again. Is the reason the need for more service to Lower Manhattan? N riders can transfer to the J/M/Z at Canal; the W will not serve Brooklyn.
The Montigue is going to be one empty tunnel. Perhaps that can be used as the LIRR/Airtrain connection. Until the Manny B starts cracking again.
This service plan has many of the features many if not most of us liked in prior discussions.
Definatley not most. The plan is full of holes.
Like Swiss cheese, eh?:)
Alpine Lace Swiss cheese.
I agree that some elements of the draft make sense.
I disagree with your Z proposal. For one thing, the J and the Z are the same route. For another, look at the J/Z schedule -- an extended Z train wouldn't serve the Brighton line at during the rush hour itself! Instead, we might want to extend the J during a period of all-stop operation.
The W is no surprise at all. It's not Astoria that needs the service -- it's the Broadway local, which otherwise would have only the R. Astoria is the nearest useful terminal.
(The W is no surprise at all. It's not Astoria that needs the service -- it's the Broadway local, which otherwise would have only the R. Astoria is the nearest useful terminal.)
It's a surprise to me although, as I think of it, all the other major north-south trunk lines do have 20 plus local trains per hour in the CBD, now that the 6th Avenue line has the V. I guess the Broadway Local could use more than 10, and having the W available means no confusion at Whitehall.
Would have been nice if the W ran to LaGuardia.
"Would have been nice if the W ran to LaGuardia"
It may yet.
Bridge loading on H tracks does not ever have to be equal to A/B tracks. Why cant any of you EVER understand this?
(Bridge loading on H tracks does not ever have to be equal to A/B tracks. Why cant any of you EVER understand this?)
Lots of people here understand it. Just not all. Some people insist on thinking that if a train on one side does damage, running a train on the other side a minute later will undo the damage.
"The W is the surprise. If they need additional service to Astoria, why not more N trains? I believe people have shunned the Sea Beach due to slow service, and that ridership will increase when it's going over the bridge again. Is the reason the need for more service to Lower Manhattan? N riders can transfer to the J/M/Z at Canal; the W will not serve Brooklyn."
The W in the plan is designed to please Astoria branch riders who want express service downtown.
"My disagreements are these. You have two trains on the H tracks and one on the AB tracks nights and weekends. I'd put the N in the rathole at those times, to provide more service to lower Manhattan"
OK, a reasonable alternative.
"and balance the bridge loading."
The steel braces are designed to eliminate that need. The bridge has already been been operating asymmetrically with the braces in place on one side. The problem you're addressing isn't there anymore.
(On weekends, there are currently two 4th Avenue - Broadway locals and one Brighton local - Broadway express. I'm suggesting that that pattern be left alone. )
I agree with you completely that City Hall, Cortlandt St., Rector St. and Whitehall St. deserve more than the 7.5 tph they'd likely get under the proposed plan.
On the other hand, life isn't 100% fair. Why do these 4 stations on Lower Broadway deserve more service than the following stations on the E and F, which also get 7.5 or 8 tph on the weekends and have comparable loadings to the lower Broadway stations:
East Broadway, Delancey, 2nd Ave, 14th (F), 23rd (F), 57th (F), Lexington Ave (F), 5th Ave (E), and Lexington Ave (E).
(And if the N ran over the bridge, it probably wouldn't stop at DeKalb at all.)
On weekends, all trains really need to stop at Dekalb; otherwise the bridge services are much less valuable. It's feasible. The max would be 21.5 tph cramming into a short stretch of local track south of Deklab.
The trains won't be packed because only those with no other options will wait. The answer is to run OPTO all weekend. 600 ft trains on weekends with long headways makes no finacial and operational sense
Oh David, give me a break. You have this fixation of the N staying in lower Manhattan and I don't want it there because it isn't supposed to be a local or in the rathole. Maybe you should just face facts and accept that my train is coming out of the hole finally and there is joy and exultation in California at the news.
THe B & D switch is highly illogical. Rather than switch their southern lines and confuse the heck out of passengers, they should just switch their northern terminals and statuses. This would be less confusing because the B and D are much the same north of Grand St, except the D is exp and makes one more stop, 205 Street. Passengers in South Brooklyn are gonna have a fit...I can see the zoos at Coney Island, 36, 62, Atlantic and DeKalb now...and god only knows what's gonna happen in the event of a GO.
Actually, it would make SENSE to the Northern end of the *IND* where the B and D had their status which they'd keep. Well, sorta. Since so many considered the IND invasion of the BMT as heresy, better to twist the minds of Brooklyn residents. :)
But like I said, it's OUT THERE, time for folks with an opinion to let the political appointees in their ivory tower know what ya think. You can fill subtalk with comments until the cows moo (they already have by the way) but unless folks in Brooklyn tell the MTA that if it ain't got four dangly things underneath, you'd better NOT try to milk it, then this would appear to be *THE* plan ...
As I've maintained, ain't fair for an out of towner to tell the MTA how to run the railroad - that's up to folks who USE it ... to my own mind, the D was the Concourse/Brighton EXPRESS when I worked the line, but my nostalgic twinges *should* be meaningless in the greater scheme of things. It's up to YOU folks ...
It is easier for the people of Brooklyn to change their thinking than those in the BRONX! (Honk)
This plan preserves the integrity of the (Q) line;
restores the integrity of the (N) line;
leaves the (W) line as irrelevent as ever;
and preserves the integrity of the *IND* (D) train, which unless you return it to the CULVER the Brooklynites won't give a damn where you put it, cause it isn't a *BMT* train anyway!
: ) Elias (QB)
(leaves the (W) line as irrelevent as ever)
Speak for yourself. That proposed W train is going to save me (and others I know) a lot of time each year if they really go through with it.
NYCT could have skimped and made do with 3 Broadway services on weekdays. I am gratified (and amazed) that this proposal has 4.
Hahahahahaha ... OH BITE ME. :)
Do you REALLY think I care where the trains go, as long as the crews make their penalty time and their WAA's on top? :)
This plan preserves the integrity of the (Q) line;
restores the integrity of the (N) line;
leaves the (W) line as irrelevent as ever;
and preserves the integrity of the *IND* (D) train, which unless you return it to the CULVER the Brooklynites won't give a damn where you put it, cause it isn't a *BMT* train anyway!
This B/D swap is DOA. It's unecessary. The D is going back to the Brighton line. Mark my words.
The reason for making the D run via the West End is that until late 2004 (or early 2005) the West End is the ONLY line running to Stillwell Avenue. That's why they made the W 24x7 last Sept when Stillwell reconstruction began. Since the D runs 24x7 it makes sense to run it via the West End. Also, it makes sense the leave the circle Q as a 24x7 Broadway service, since it has become very popular. As far as confusing passengers, most have probably forgotten which line (B or D) ran via which route. Besides, "B" can stand for "Brighton Express".
Chris is right. The B should be the 24/7 service via West End to Coney Island. And as David G. pointed out long ago, late nights there should be 2 local services via CPW, not one local and one express. The B would fit in beautifully, extended one stop to 205th St., but leaving the D, as now, never stopping at the local stops on CPW.
I hope you're right, Chris. And I would add, having 3 services on Fourth Av. weekends and only one on the Brighton is grossly unfair considering that the proportion of ridership of 4th Av. vs. Brighton is roughly 17:13. Given the relatively high number of fares collected at Brighton Beach on weekends as opposed to weekdays, I say balance service by adding Brighton Express service during the summer months.
Why only in summer? Why not the whole year?
Will the TA splurge the $$ for the extra service. I doubt it. There is also the matter of repairs, which are done on weekends. I say, run the Brighton Express on weekends when it is most needed, during the summer, and do the repairs on weekends during the rest of the year.
But that, too, "had always been done." Until 7/22/01. Prior to that, the B, N and R ran to Manhattan via 4th Avenue and only the D ran on Brighton. When the 6th Avenue bridge tracks closed for the second time in July 01, only the N and R continued past Pacific on weekends. Now that's the R and W, but if B and D service patterns go back to exactly the way they were before 7/22/01, we'll be back to three on 4th and one on Brighton, unless they run the Q on weekends too.
Right, after 1958 there were 3 4th Av. and 1 Brighton service on weekends (through 1958 there was the Brighton-Franklin expresses on weekends). Based on fare-collection figures, this was grossly unjust should not be re-instated.
You're missing the point.
There are three weekend 4th Avenue services because they're needed at either end, not because they're needed on 4th Avenue itself.
NYCT has decided (and I agree) that 6th Avenue demands two weekend services and Broadway demands three. Of those five services, four point toward DeKalb (the fifth is the F).
Obviously, each of the Brooklyn branches -- Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, and 4th Avenue/Bay Ridge -- must have some sort of service, regardless of ridership. NYCT has decided (and I'm ambivalent) that none of the branches have enough demand to warrant two services.
That leaves four services in Brooklyn and four services (plus the F) in Manhattan.
One approach is to run through service on (in NYCT's new terminology) the Q (Brighton-Broadway express), D (West End-6th Avenue express), and R (4th Avenue-Broadway local), with the N running as Sea Beach shuttle and the W running between Astoria and Whitehall, as on weekdays. But that leaves the north terminal of the N and the south terminal of the W in spitting distance of each other. They can be connected at minimal expense, and some passengers would benefit from such a connection. So why not do it?
There aren't three 4th Avenue services because ridership demands three 4th Avenue services. There are three 4th Avenue services simply because the three branches off of 4th Avenue need to be served somehow and there's demand for all of them in Manhattan.
Good analysis. Obviously one can create all sorts of variations. I don't think one will stand head and shoulders above the others. I think each would be subject to critical observation and tweaking.
One thing I am looking forward to happening is the restoration of F express service in Brooklyn with the rebuild of the Bergen interlocking.
That rebuild would then make the extension of the V line to Church Avenue viable, right?
The Central Park West Local could probably use more service too in the draft plan. Maybe the M could do a K and take the Chrystie cut from the Williamsburg Bridge up to West 4th Street and go either via 6th or 8th Avenue local (I favor the 8th Avenue local, if switching at W4 isn't too difficult-6th Avenue already has a V on it) and then up (and down) Central Park West Local. This is much preferable to terminating the M at Chambers Street middays especially, I think.
If that, admittedly ambitious approach, is not taken, though, then the M ought to at least be extended to Broad Street at all times, to afford access to the many transfers at Fulton Street (A, C, 2, 3) not available at Chambers Street.
"That rebuild would then make the extension of the V line to Church Avenue viable, right?"
Presumably. We'll see as it's being finished (I don't know the build schedule, but it is a real project, not just Subtalk fantasy).
So this is actually happening right now? Is it that construction presently south of Jay st on the F line?
wayne
Here in North Dakota, it is much simpler. The Conductor climbs down off of the locomotive and throws the switch. It is a semi-automatic spring-loaded switch.
When he throws it to the diverting route, it cocks the mechanism so that once the train clears the switch it automaticaly returns to the mainline alignment. This was done when they got rid of the cabboses and had no one at the back of the train to do the deed by hand.
Elias
We got big bucks out in the fields here too.
We also sell hunting licenses! : )
Elias
Ah.. Er... do you have a PALM TOP COMPUTER!
Yeah? Dat's It!
Elias
NOT!
The (F) will have to remain local (together with the (G). A New Service will have to be the express. To do anything different will raise the bitches of the area NIMBYs who preceeve the possible reduction in service to their precious stations that an (F) express would entail.
(G) LOCAL to Church Avenue
(F) LOCAL to Coney Island
(C) Express to Kings Highway
(V) LOCAL via 6th Ave to Chambers Street
Yeah Yeah.... I know, you want the EXPRESS to go to Coney Island, and the Local to Short Turn at Kings Highway...
but THE TRACKS AIN'T BUILT THAT WAY! So go soak your snout in a pot of apple sauce! :)-
Elias
It would be possible (if a little messy) to terminate the Local at Avenue X and run the Express to CI, but you have a point - who configured the switches in that dumb way at KIng's Highway?!?
Should it be reinstalled when Bergen interlocking becomes functional again?
Beats me.
Should it be reinstalled when Bergen interlocking becomes functional again?
Is it worth the cost? Kings Highway is now just a terminal, not an express station.
Yup, either the (E) or the (A).
The idea is to keep switching in Manhattan, and in and around Jay Street to a minimum so that trains need not hold each other up.
The (V) ~ (C) swap is possible due to existing flying crossovers on the local tracks south of W 4th Street.
So send the (C) local via Rutgers, which is under used...
So send the (V) to Chambers Street, giving 6th Avenue Access to Downtown
So put both the (A) and the (E) on the Express tracks in Manhattan
And run them through the Cranberry Tunnel.
In a perfect world (which wuld have build my precious Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Subway by now) the (H) train would pick up local stops along Fulton Street to 76th Street, and would take the Court Street Tracks out of Hoyt-Schermerhorn but would bend north along Court Street before entering the Museum, and would join the Myrtle Line Locals on the Lower Level of the Pineapple Tunnel! : )
(Which leaves Orange Street without a Tunnel.... HMmmmmmm......
Elias
The perfect world would not have torn down the Myrtle, Lexington or Fulton Els. I wonder if E_DOG ran the TA in those days.
The Fulton El was replaced by a subway, so the 'perfect world' prevailed there.
The Lexington el seemed to parallel the Myrtle el. Quite unnessecary once the Fulton st subway was completed.
The myrtle av el should not have been torn down, i agree.
It would only be perfect if all the Subway lines needed in places where there wasn't a perfectly good El had been built first.
The Lexington el seemed to parallel the Myrtle el.
Yes - but it allowed trains heading away from Park Row to turn from Myrtle onto Broadway, mirroring the current M train turning from Broadway onto Myrtle. It was a beautifully symmetrical idea.
Quite unnessecary once the Fulton st subway was completed.
The Fulton St Subway changed nothing - there was an El on Fulton St before.
Fulton Line (exp and local)
Brighton Line (exp and Local)
Culver Line
West End Line
Sea Beach Line
Bay Ridge Line
Eight lines, competing for space on the montague tunnel and Manhattan Bridge northside. Manhattan Bridge southside had the most retarded linkup ever, turning southward and mimicing the existing Brooklyn Bridge service. How can anyone ever argue anything in favor of the BMT as a GOOD transit company?
Fulton and Broadway had a downturn that had nothing to do with the Els. Fulton and the eastern end of Jamaica Ave died even without the El, and Broadway (Brooklyn) would have died even if the el would have been removed years ago.
Maybe we can conduct a posthumous show trial of Hylan for embezzlement and make an award of the price of rectifying his damage to transit against his estate ;-)
Then do the same to Robert Moses...
They could have built the Cranberry tube, just like they did, and connect the Fulton el to it.
That is a nice idea - it would have also given the Brighton Local somewhere to go instead of the merge at Prospect Park and the Franklin Shuttle.
Hmm, that's an extra bonus of the Fulton El to the Cranberry tube connection that I didn't think of. It would have allowed for direct 8th Ave/CPW-Brighton Service!
Don't you mean Ashland Pl?
If there was no IND tie in
Or more helpfully an IRT tie in - you know what width at least the Myrtle El was. It was a good demonstration of how you can run 9' wide trains on the BMT.
Manhattan Bridge southside had the most retarded linkup ever, turning southward and mimicing the existing Brooklyn Bridge service.
The intention was not retarded, but it did rather turn out that way.
Eight lines, competing for space on the montague tunnel and Manhattan Bridge northside.
Better use of the Bridges was of course necessary.
How can anyone ever argue anything in favor of the BMT as a GOOD transit company?
I'm amazed you think that with your handle!
"J" not for the train, but for my first name! I like the IND waaaaay more than the BMT.
You guys gotta remember: The BMT did not design the thing (ala IRT), they inherited and assembled disparate existing (BRT, LIRR and OTHER) lines and built them into the best system possible. Remeber also, they were a BROOKLYN service, and when they were built (1800s) there WAS NO need for people to commute to mid-town or up-town.
For my Vote, I always thought the BMT was a class act!
Elias
Excellent explanation, David. However - is only one train to the Brightom line an adequate service on (winter) weekends?
(However - is only one train to the Brightom line an adequate service on (winter) weekends?)
That's all there is right now, and you don't hear our Brighton-based Subtalkers complaining they can't get on the train.
Incidentally, the current headway on the weekend Q is 8 minutes.
Yes. Weekend Q trains tend to get more crowded than the other south Brooklyn lines -- about as crowded as, e.g., the A, but much less crowded than any of the IRT lines (based on personal observations).
I should add that the weekend Q is crowded only as far south as Church. The rest of the way down it's as desolate as the other south Brooklyn lines.
You seem to place great emphasis on the fact that trains are less crowded at the end of the line. Of course they are! The reason they are crowded in Manhattan is that people from throughout the outer boroughs have already boarded. The number of people who ride the Brigton from, say, Sheepshead Bay to Kings Highway is small.
The idealized way to handle this is to have locals terminate at an intermediate point while expresses go through to the end of the line, as in the IND Queens Boulevard line, the IND 8th Avenue line, and the Fulton St. line. Locals serve the inner stations, expresses serve the outer stations, preferably with more widely spaces stops, since densities are lower. Those further out get a faster ride, and trains are less empty at the end.
That's not the way the IRT and BMT did things, however. Only at 9th Avenue can the BMT short-turn locals, and only because of an accident of history. On the Brighton, in fact, the express is short turned. The same is true on the Eastern Parkway/New Lots Line, where trains can be short-turned, again, only because of an accident -- a line not built.
If the track configuration permitted it and the shuttle platforms were longer, I'd suggest extending the Franklin shuttle to Church on weekends, but that's not a practical option.
Where was the IRT intending on building a line to?
I guess all locals could have turned down Utica and expresses could have gone to New Lots.
Given that everything at Utica is on two levels, why couldn't the tracks have been arranged so that locals could turn there, rather than expresses?
Da Beastmaster
"You're missing the point. There are three weekend 4th Avenue services because they're needed at either end, not because they're needed on 4th Avenue itself.
"That leaves four services in Brooklyn and four services (plus the F) in Manhattan.
"That leaves the north terminal of the N and the south terminal of the W in spitting distance of each other. They can be connected at minimal expense, and some passengers would benefit from such a connection. So why not do it?"
David, with all due respect and cameraderie, I believe you have missed the point, not me. The new NYCTA plan has the W running weekdays only. I was discussing weekends.
On weekends, the N is not within spitting distance of the W because according to the plan, there is no W on weekends. Provide service to all services using 4th Av.? Yes, desireable. But if the TA has not got the money, the N should be a shuttle in Brooklyn on weekends, terminating at 36th St. If the TA does have the money, they should be fair about distributing it, according to number of passengers. Three 4th Av. services, fine. Then two Brighton services, at least during the summer.
(If the TA does have the money, they should be fair about distributing it, according to number of passengers. Three 4th Av. services, fine. Then two Brighton services, at least during the summer.)
But extending the N from Pacific to 57th costs only a fraction of the money needed to double service on the Brighton Line. So it's not an either/or proposition.
I suspect an intermediate step is planned: 8 tph on the Brighton, and 6 on the Sea Beach and West End.
If the N were a shuttle in Brooklyn on weekends, there would need to be an extra route to serve the Astoria line and to assist the R on the Manhattan local tracks. I'm calling that hypothetical route the W, since that's what it's being called on weekdays. Both the N and this hypothetical W are necessary, I'm sure you'd agree.
NYCT is taking the inexpensive step of combining the N Brooklyn shuttle with the hypothetical W. The service isn't needed on 4th Avenue or between Pacific and Manhattan, but the connection is still of use to some, so it's available as a bonus.
NYCT apparently doesn't think Brighton demand is great enough to warrant two Brighton services. As I said, I'm ambivalent.
The only reason the N is a shuttle now is that there's no need for four services north of DeKalb, since DeKalb currently only feeds into Broadway (and Nassau).
If any Brighton line service were to run on the same headways as the Sea Beach Line or West End Line, you'd have a point.
Then they should leave the W running 24/7 between Astoria and CI, except that it would be local with the R in Brooklyn and Manhattan weekdays. West Enders would still have express service weekdays because the B would be there weekdays. No more M on the West End Line, maybe send it to Bay Ridge with the R or combine it with the V (which I prefer). Almost everyone seems to want the W out of Brooklyn or completely gone from the system, and I don't understand why. But there does not need to be weekend B and D service in Manhattan, at least not in upper Manhattan. One or the other is sufficient there.
Just looked at the proposed map once again (please everyone, bear in mind that as a former TA employee, I really don't CARE about routings as long as I got paid biweekly) ... but yeah, that's BIZARRE.
It seems as nothing more than change for the sake of change, and the usual pinhead mindset of "mix it up" which is why radio sucks. Switching the B and D as done DOESN'T make any sense since the "Brighton B" and the "West End D" would run the SAME route as the prior "Brighton D" and the "West End B" did, both expresses ... I can only surmise that some moron with too many paper cuts from cutting paper dolls said to themselves, "B is Brighton ... that makes sense" ...
Given that I don't see any BENEFIT in the change, they might as well swap the B and D as WAS ... I could see a point to it if the routings were different, but now that I bothered to look (TOLD ya I don't CARE about maps) it DOESN'T make any sense ... except to pinheads that have no sense of continuity. Oh wait ... this is Paturkey and Bruno's brain trust. Nevermind.
(Switching the B and D as done DOESN'T make any sense since the "Brighton B" and the "West End D" would run the SAME route as the prior "Brighton D" and the "West End B" did, both expresses )
Not quite true. Pre-2001, the D was full time, but sometimes a Brighton express, sometimes a Brighton local.
This plan is really simple and easy for the most goose-like passenger to remember. The D is ALWAYS the same thing, with one-way rush hour express service in the Bronx. WHEN IT RUNS, The B is ALWAYS the same thing (with rush hour extension to the Concourse).
No more "if this is a weekend I take a D, if it's a weekday I take a Q" stuff at the Brighton local stations.
No more "if this is a weekend I take a D, if it's a weekday I take a Q" stuff at the Brighton local stations.
This can be done a lot less radically by returning the D to the Brighton Local 24/7 and running the Q as the Broadway Brighton express on weekdays. This is the "simplest" arrangement.
The other "logic" behind this swap is to have the West End line served 24/7 by a Manhattan-bound service. This can be arranged less radically by swapping the B & N (N to West End, B to Sea Beach).
Actually it is very very close to what I have been proposing (With the Letters changed to confuse the Geese!)
Ie:
Brighton Line: BWAY EXP / Brighton Local 24/7
Brighton Line: 6th Ave Exp / Brighton Exp : Rush / Days
West End: 6th Ave EXP / West End Local 24/7
West End: (Ok so they put the (M) on it when I wanted the (W), ah er (T)
and they made it Rush Only, where I would have made it DAY / EXPRESS
SEA BEACH: BWAY EXP / Sea Beach : 24/7 via BRIDGE
Fourth Avenue: Broadway Local : 24/7 via the RatHole
I had continiously suggested that each lion (Brighton and WestEnd) needed a single 24/7 from either Bway or 6th Ave; with an EXP from the opposite lion rush/days etc.
It is interesting and it is workable, and I (like Selkirk) will not have to be troubled by it every day anyway.
Elias
"each lion needed a single 24/7 from either Bway or 6th Ave; with an EXP from the opposite lion rush/days"
Do you have proff that there are lions in New York? Or is everyone in Long Island a LIAR (8-) ?
Here is the proff.
Of course - how could I have forgotten the Library Lions??
PROFF of lions in New york - go here
Do you have proff that there are lions in New York?
I was sitting on the Library steps reading my book.
You might say that I was reading between the Lions!
: )
The D on the West End? The B on the Brighton? Could someone please explain to me what the purpose is of the B and the D swapping routes to Coney Island in Brooklyn? Why can't each line go back to where it originally ran?
Is it possible that we could have the B and D run together in Brooklyn? They already run together in the Bronx and Manhattan. Keep them both on the Brighton Line, and run the N and Q down 4th Avenue with the N on the Sea Beach and the Q on the West End. It sounds like a stupid idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what you guys thought.
Yeah, this whole swapping of B-Division lines is starting to look like alphabet soup to me!
Prior to the Bridge flip, there was no weekend Brighton Express AND no weekend 6 Ave Exp/CPW local terminating at 145. Somebody has finally realized, that if both those trains were the same, the weekend confusion problem goes away.
The weekend confusion has gone away and would be substituted with rush hour and weekday confusion. And weekdays there are so many more riders. Swapping B and D service in Brooklyn is a very bad idea.
Simple: link the two weekday-only services, the Brighton express and the B. On weekends, neither runs.
I would prefer to see this done differently. The two weekday-only services are the Brighton express and the Concourse express. (The B is a letter, not a service.) Call that the D (yes, that means the Concourse express would run middays). Run the B full-time on West End and Concourse local, to Bedford Park when the D runs and to 205th when it doesn't.
The D would never run local anywhere, except in the reverse peak direction on the Concourse (out of necessity). The B would always run local north of 59th. Everything's more consistent that way and Brighton and West End passengers aren't left scratching their heads.
This was an idea I was thinking. Working up there, I was wondering why they didn't have midday express like the J, 6 and 7. They could probably use it since the Bronx has not all day express. Only would Concourse riders object to having only a local outside of weekdays? Perhaps compromise and make the B go express off hours.
Also, if they are going to have the West End stop at DeKalb, I think that the switch southbound to the exp. track at Pacific should no longer be used in regular service. It is ridiculous, with a Wheel Detector posted for 10, which means you must go slower than 10. You can't hold one point to long, and two points will propel you too fast. Reach 9mph, and it starts flashing. So you have to be there point-on;point off, and I'm sure the passengers are just as impatient waiting for a train to crawl in that slow. Straightening out the switch a bit would require knocking out sections of wall. That should only be used for special moves/reroutes, etc.
Also, of course, I wish they would use this opportunity to finally consider using the Chrystie-Essex connection for weekends and maybe even evenings. Perhaps run a shuttle from Chambers to Essex, and make 6th or 8th Avenues the main weekend route for the Willy B. How many people are going to Chambers amyway? Most of them are probably just transferring to lines going uptown anyway. Send the trains directly uptown, and it should draw more riders. Keep them going to desolate Downtown East, and this justifies running light service. Also, what happened to the plan to extend M OPTO service to Chambers weekends? That would be better than nothing.
This was an idea I was thinking. Working up there, I was wondering why they didn't have midday express like the J, 6 and 7. They could probably use it since the Bronx has not all day express. Only would Concourse riders object to having only a local outside of weekdays? Perhaps compromise and make the B go express off hours.
No, no, a thousand times, no! You've unwittingly knocked over my hidden agenda.
Well, it's not really a hidden agenda, but I did try to sneak it in here. As I've pointed out before, while CPW doesn't need three weekend services, it definitely needs two locals on weekends (in most cases, I'd say that two locals and one express are preferable to two expresses and one local, except where the local runs more frequently than either express, like on the IRT), and at night, two locals are always preferable to one local and one express. Since the D has much lighter loads along CPW than the A, and the D goes to a different place than the C to the south, the D should be the second local -- but once we've gone that far, it would be simpler to call it B rather than D.
The last time this issue came up, the only complaints I heard were from the Concourse crowd -- not that there was anything wrong with what I said at level of the subway system as a whole, but simply that they liked their 24/7 express service and that they wouldn't give it up with a fight. Since NYCT is an arm of a political entity, public opposition, however selfish it may be, can derail the best of ideas. That's why I suggested, just now, adding midday Concourse express service. It isn't actually needed; I'm just throwing the Concourse crowd a bone.
OTOH, it's an expensive bone. It might be cheaper, or not much more expensive, to simply run an additional local service on weekends -- say, a truncated B from 145th Street to 2nd Avenue, or simply extra C service to WTC, though that wouldn't provide direct 6th Avenue access like the B would.
But I also like the idea, where possible, of giving a local a consistent name whenever it runs, even if the terminals vary slightly. Similarly, I think the late night A should be replaced with an extended C, running between 207th and Lefferts. (Crews don't like the long local runs to the Rockaways. Rockaway service could be handled by -- in order of decreasing expense -- two shuttles from Euclid, or one from Euclid and one from Broad Channel, or a single round-robin shuttle. Late night airport passengers would be directed to the Q10 to/from Lefferts. Wait a minute -- does the Q10 run overnight?)
Also, if they are going to have the West End stop at DeKalb, I think that the switch southbound to the exp. track at Pacific should no longer be used in regular service. It is ridiculous, with a Wheel Detector posted for 10, which means you must go slower than 10. You can't hold one point to long, and two points will propel you too fast. Reach 9mph, and it starts flashing. So you have to be there point-on;point off, and I'm sure the passengers are just as impatient waiting for a train to crawl in that slow. Straightening out the switch a bit would require knocking out sections of wall. That should only be used for special moves/reroutes, etc.
I've never noticed the WD there -- I guess I haven't ridden a SB N at the railfan window past DeKalb for a long time. If the WD couldn't safely be raised to 15 or so, you're probably right.
Also, of course, I wish they would use this opportunity to finally consider using the Chrystie-Essex connection for weekends and maybe even evenings. Perhaps run a shuttle from Chambers to Essex, and make 6th or 8th Avenues the main weekend route for the Willy B. How many people are going to Chambers amyway? Most of them are probably just transferring to lines going uptown anyway. Send the trains directly uptown, and it should draw more riders. Keep them going to desolate Downtown East, and this justifies running light service. Also, what happened to the plan to extend M OPTO service to Chambers weekends? That would be better than nothing.
Agreed fully, except that one through service should continue to run through to Chambers (or, better, Broad). Let the J run as it is but pull the M uptown. Run it up 6th Avenue and as a CPW local to 145th and it solves the CPW problem, too! But could you imagine an orange (or blue) route over the Williamsburg Bridge?
YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF!! EXCELLENT FACTS!!
Thanks, but everything I know I learned here, and I have a long way to go. My posts from two years ago make me look like a bumbling fool. By now I hope I've graduated to the level of plain old fool, not bumbling.
"Ain't" that the truth. Most of what I know about the subway I learned here. Hey I still have trouble telling the difference between an R62/68/142 and an R62A/68A/142A. When I first came here I wasn't able to tell the difference between an R44 and an R46!
I was here long before I posted. I actually was a silent "SubTalker" since November 1998 when I accidently found this site while searching the web for abandoned stations. I only started posting here, for whatever reason waiting so long, in 2001. My first couple of posts are sort of "uninformed", but hey, I had a lot to learn. And I started out with the 100's of questions also, just like everyone else did.
Here's a sample of my 100's of questions (even my handle changed within a day of starting here).
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=280702Yep, that's me!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=280626(I didn't start this thread, but some of my comments within it seem so elementry within it!)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=280547My first thread.....
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=281356
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=281402
...and the list goes on. I enjoyed this walk down SubTalk memory lane....
Does CPW really need all this extra local service? I seriously doubt it. Plus, it doesnt make a lot of sense to make the Concourse people make all the local stops when they arent necessary. Then again, Adding some extra C service in manhattan wouldnt hurt either.
Similarly, I think the late night A should be replaced with an extended C, running between 207th and Lefferts.
From an operational standpoint, this makes no sense. Suddenly a line goes from one type of car at a specific length to a whole new length with cars not assigned there? I essence, you'd be making Trains change their signage every single night, an unnesecary hassle that will result in mis-marked rush hour trains. Why do that? Plus, people at a stop like Franklin actually see "A" trains all the time, whereas someone at Lefferts never sees a "C" train.
CPW could certainly use (a) more service than the C provides (remember, the C also serves local stops in Brooklyn, which have lower ridership, and local stops south of Columbus Circle, which have the E to assist) and (b) direct access to 6th Avenue. If nothing else, there's a major museum abutting one of the local stops. Major museums are very busy on weekends, especially among tourists, who tend to have more use for 6th Avenue than for 8th Avenue.
Like most B Division routes, the C runs at 6 tph for part of the day on Sunday -- but compared to other B Division routes, it runs at 6 tph for a very small part of the day. That's probably fine below Columbus Circle, but on CPW itself it doesn't cut it. C trains are crowded. D trains are not. (I don't think I've ever seen anyone standing on a weekend D train -- except during GO's when the D is sent local.)
The express run saves under three minutes compared to the local run. The poster here who has complained the most about my proposal isn't concerned about the time at all, since the time difference is negligible -- he just likes to sleep on the train, and the door chimes would keep him awake if the train ran local. While I recognize that my proposal would be a slight inconvenience to him, it would be of greater benefit to a much larger number of passengers.
IINM, in the middle of the day on Sunday, the A, C, and D each run on 10-minute headways. Assuming no further knowledge of schedules, here are the expected time savings (positive) and losses (negative), in minutes, for southbound passengers of various origin-destination pairs (not an exhaustive list):
Concourse to 145 or 125: 0
Concourse to 135 or CPW local: +5
Concourse to 59: -3 [stay on local]
Concourse or 125 to 6th Avenue: -3
Concourse to (e.g.) Canal/Church: -1.5 [transfer to A/C at 125]
125 to 59: -1
125 to CPW local: +2.5
CPW local to 59: +2.5
CPW local to 6th Avenue: +5
(In the morning and the evening, the C has longer headways than the A and D, which would pull the positive numbers up further.)
I don't have exact counts for passengers in each of these categories, but I know that CPW local stations have substantial traffic on weekends but that Concourse stations don't seem to.
In any case, that's the theory. In practice, the C's unreliability paints a different picture. It's not uncommon for three expresses to pass before a local stops. I was once waiting at 81st, on a Sunday around noon, bound for 6th Avenue. First a D passed. Then an A passed. Then another D passed. Then a C passed on the local track. Then, finally, a crush loaded C stopped. At 59th I had to get off and wait for a D. I lost 20 minutes because the D runs express on weekends -- all so a few people on the D (there were about five in each car) could have naps.
From an operational standpoint, this makes no sense. Suddenly a line goes from one type of car at a specific length to a whole new length with cars not assigned there? I essence, you'd be making Trains change their signage every single night, an unnesecary hassle that will result in mis-marked rush hour trains. Why do that? Plus, people at a stop like Franklin actually see "A" trains all the time, whereas someone at Lefferts never sees a "C" train.
I don't care if the late night C trains are the same C trains that run during the day or are relabeled A trains. Running the same C trains is probably easier, but it makes no difference to me. This isn't the IRT; late night ridership on the IND is low enough that the 120-foot difference is irrelevant.
There are 22 stations that are only served by the A at night. That's 22 stations worth of passengers who have to memorize the schedule to determine if a particular A train will take them home or will zip them past home to Harlem or East New York. There are only 12 stations that are now served by the A at all times but would be served by the C at night under my proposal -- and if the related proposal to run all A's (off-peak or at all times -- both options have been put forth) on the Rockaway branch and to extend the C at all times (or only off-peak) to Lefferts, then only the 5 stations north of 168th would have C service at night but A service during the day. The ratio would be even more strongly in favor of late night C service if were expressed in terms of passenger counts, since the inner stations are busier than the outer ones.
As for the A/C name swap, it really doesnt matter either way. Most night passengers know where they're going anyway.
As for the A/C name swap, it really doesnt matter either way. Most night passengers know where they're going anyway. But IND ridership is still somewhat high. I've been on A locals that have no seats left at 11:30. Granted, not the middle of the night, but it is the point where A trains are running local.
Hurray, David, your preference is identical to mine. That is EXACTLY how the problem should be solved! Why confuse Brooklyn weekday riders. And your preference solves the additional problem you rightfully brought up on this board some time ago. Late nights both services running under CPW should go LOCAL. This would be the A & B. Therefore, less confusion, with the B running 24/7. CPW gets two late-night locals, and the D would never stop at the CPW local stations. Less confusion and better service for everybody! I sure hope that this adjustment is made.
It is a good proposal, and I agree with it too. It was everyone saying that Concourse riders are going to shoot it down, saying that the D is, was and always should be the Concourse line. I also see the value of two locals on CPW and the uselessness of two CPW expresses on weekends. I'd rather switch the B and D in the Bronx, that is less confusing and better than the tentative TA proposal, which does have some merits. If Concourse riders need express service so badly, get off and transfer to the 4 at 161st Street. Lexington and 6th Avenues are not terribly far from each other. The CPW express saves only three minutes. Are those three minutes really all that important?
"It is a good proposal, and I agree with it too. It was everyone saying that Concourse riders are going to shoot it down, saying that the D is, was and always should be the Concourse line."
Actually, since according to David G.'s suggestion the D would probably run from, say 6 AM to 10 PM weekdays, the vast majority of Concourse riders wouldn't notice that the B and not the D serves Concourse during off hours.
According to one Concourse rider on this board, it's not even the three minutes -- it's that he likes to sleep on the train, but the doorbells keep waking him up on the local.
I wish I could sleep while waiting for the local, but it's hard to sleep while standing, and if I do manage to fall asleep, I'll be quickly awakened by a passing express.
I'm afraid it's hard to show sympathy in this case.
Man would I love to be a fly on the wall when these discussions take place. Well, it sure quiets those people who didn't like two queues on the Brighton :)
--Mark
Heh. You'll need to "buzz up" to Joe Bruno's office to hear what the roll of the dice is ... MTA appointees are Bruno toads these days (stamped by Paturkey) ... if they're loyal gas party, then they're in even if they can't tell a subway SANDWICH from a train. :(
But that's gotta be the DUMBEST idea *I* have seen ... but once again, as always, no WAGERING on Selkirk's interest in how the sea bits gets to the local trax ... if I were a COMMUTER, I'd care. It'd matter GREATLY. But I'm just a cowpone from upstate who gets to ride *(a)* train whenever I get to the city and want to travel (at my LEISURE) to some place in the city. Don't matter what, where or when as long as it gets me there *TODAY* ... (that was ONCE important to commuters too when the subway wasn't as clean or reliable as it is today) ...
But *MAN!!!* SCREW giving the train crews a pyth test ... it's time for JAY STREET to line up for a community whiz ... no chit! :)
First of all to implement this plan will require a public hearing because these are major service changes.
1-It does not make sense to operate two 24 hour services along 4th Avenue. One being 4th Ave/Sea Beach(the N Route) the other being 4th Ave/West End(the proposed D Route). 24 hour service is not justified on both West End and Sea Beach to and from Manhattan. If anything it will make sense to operate the R Line 24 hours a day via the tunnel and the proposed N Route operate via the Bridge at all times but have the N operate local in Manhattan late nights and weekends.
2-There has been a huge ridership along the Brighton Line to 6th Avenue Line stations especially at late night. Why force these passengers to change.
3-I have wrote that the M Line should terminate in Manhattan middays but i am wrong about that for this reason. Once the bridge reopens you will have 1 Broadway local service via the tunnel. Since 1986 their has been 2 Broadway local services operating. With a 50% reduction on Broadway service operating to and from Brooklyn a Nassau Street service will now pick up more ridership.
4-If anything the R Line should operate 24 hours a day to Queens. It serves more Queens Blvd riders along with the E Line than the current E and G late night services. Cut the G Line back to Queens Plaza late nights and have a timed meeting with the E Line.
5-If this proposed service plan is implemented than you will have 2 Broadway routes 24 hours a day and 2 6th Avenue routes 24 hours a day with the 4th Ave feeder with one each and the Brighton Line which carries more passengers than 4th Ave with just one line. It does not make sense.
6- If this plan is implemented than the Lower Manhattan part of the Broadway Line will have 2 different lines operating between Brooklyn and Manhattan at various parts of the day, It will be confusing.
Thats my opinion.
Thank You
Wow, you said it perfectly. I agree with everyting you wrote.
>>> 2-There has been a huge ridership along the Brighton Line to 6th Avenue Line stations especially at late night. Why force these passengers to change. <<<
But they already had to change when the Manhattan Bridge closed to 6th Avenue trains in July 2001. If they need 6th Avenue, they have to stay on the Q to 34th Street.
Could Stillwell Avenue reconstruction have had something to do with this plan? Stillwell will not be ready for full service until sometime in 2005, if all goes well. Currently only the West End and Sea Beach (if the N switches on to the W tracks) lines can access Stillwell, and West End has higher ridership. Therefore, they want to keep the West End train to serve Stillwell, and so it still needs to be 24/7. The D is 24/7, the B is not. The TA is not going to run both the B and D 24/7, because that would be too much service on 6th Avenue and CPW. That might be why they want to run the D down the West End. It will also minimize the amount of changes that will take place in 2004 and retain three weekend services on Broadway between Canal and 57th.
Also, West End line riders have 24/7 service to Manhattan now. They lose that if the B and D go back to the way they were before 7/22/01. They're not going to give up 24/7 service to Manhattan without a fight. And while you would have two services along 4th Avenue, they would be going to two different trunk lines in Manhattan.
But they already had to change when the Manhattan Bridge closed to 6th Avenue trains in July 2001. If they need 6th Avenue, they have to stay on the Q to 34th Street.
No need to continue that inconvenience post 2004. Remember, the current service patterns are necessary reroutes due to the northside bridge tracks closure. We shouldn't be looking at preserving them.
I'm with you on this one as well. Well said.
now what is the point of terminating the Q at 57th, which means rush hour is only one way, and is a complete waste of one direction, why not extend it to jamaica center instead of the V?
Because the point of the V is to provide access between Queens local stations and the popular 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines in Manhattan.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Why would you want to give Queens local passengers the choices of Broadway and Broadway? The Q wouldn't even allow them to transfer to 53rd Street or 6th Avenue service at Queens Plaza; they'd have to wait specifically for the R.
The current Queens arrangement makes sense. All four routes are needed. You could argue, perhaps, in favor of extending a small amount of additional service from Broadway onto the Queens express, with reductions as necessary in E and/or F service, but the V is a basic necessity to Queens local passengers.
Well said David.
3-I have wrote that the M Line should terminate in Manhattan middays but i am wrong about that for this reason. Once the bridge reopens you will have 1 Broadway local service via the tunnel. Since 1986 their has been 2 Broadway local services operating. With a 50% reduction on Broadway service operating to and from Brooklyn a Nassau Street service will now pick up more ridership.
This is very logical. To have just the R alone going through the tunnel is insanity.
Personally, I also feel that if they cut the M from the tunnel, and extended the proposed Whitehall St terminating W through the tunnel with the R is also insanity.
They might as well have one Nassau service through the tunnel and one Broadway service through the tunnel.
An finally, why do they keep insisting on Chambers as the terminal for the M? It's dumb, the M should at the very least go through to Broad, if it must be cut from the tunnel. 8th Ave and 7th Ave bound M riders then have to get off at Chambers, wait for the J, and then get off one stop later at Fulton. It's bad enough that they have to deal with that all weekend (which is tolerable), they shouldn't have to deal with that all day during the week also.
What will happen upon the reopening of the 6th Avenue Tracks of the Manhattan Bridge is that:
1-The Q Line will operate between Brighton Beach and 57th St/7th Ave via the Brighton Express and Broadway Express. What still has to be worked out is the level and days of service
2-The W Line will operate between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street via the Broadway Local. This has been planned by Operations Planning since the late 1980's when the N and R Queens terminals were switched.
The W Line will likely operate weekdays from approx 6AM to either 8or 9PM.
3-The N Line will return to the Manhattan Bridge and make express stops between Pacific Street and 57th St/7th Avenue at least during the hous that the W will operate. What happens at all other times is still to be worked out
4-The B and D Lines will return to the same service prior to July,2001
5-The M Line will operate to 9th Ave weekdays
Anything else is pure guessing
Thank You
(Anything else is pure guessing )
And why are your statements less of guesswork than anything else? Do you work for NYCT Operations Planning?
Use to work in Operations Planning in the late 1970's and for many years afterwards was in contact with people who did work for them.
I also know several key executives in the MTA and basically know how they think
Thank You
This is certainly the most logical plan, in IMHO (though I suspect the N would not terminate at 57th/7th rush hours but instead continue to Astoria). And it has been speculated in the past by other Subtalkers to be the most likely and probably most fair and logical plan. Certainly better than the recommended draft they have now.
The N Line will return to 24 hour a day operation between Brooklyn and Ditmars Blvd upon the restoration of the Brighton and Culver Service to Stillwell in 2004. The N will also be restored to Stillwell in 2005 when the reconstruction is completed.
Thank You
What will happen upon the reopening of the 6th Avenue Tracks of the Manhattan Bridge is that:
1-The Q Line will operate between Brighton Beach and 57th St/7th Ave via the Brighton Express and Broadway Express. What still has to be worked out is the level and days of service
2-The W Line will operate between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street via the Broadway Local. This has been planned by Operations Planning since the late 1980's when the N and R Queens terminals were switched.
The W Line will likely operate weekdays from approx 6AM to either 8or 9PM.
3-The N Line will return to the Manhattan Bridge and make express stops between Pacific Street and 57th St/7th Avenue at least during the hous that the W will operate. What happens at all other times is still to be worked out
4-The B and D Lines will return to the same service prior to July,2001
5-The M Line will operate to 9th Ave weekdays
Anything else is pure guessing
Much as TA management probably wants to offend no one, they have to offend someone. Asians in Sunset Park want service to Grand St. 7 days a week. Brighton riders want their old service options back, and maybe even have an emotional attachment to the letter D. Greenpoint doesn't want the G on QB replaced by the B on weekends. Sea Beach riders don't want a permanent weekend shuttle. NYCT budget poeple will turn down a plan that provides excessive service. No one wants to have to remember that their train goes to 6th Ave on weekdays and Broadway on weekends.
But someone has to see change and confusion. My guess is that the draft plan is the favorite because it offends the least number of people, and only offends them slightly.
Most brighton riders including myself do not remember with any clarity the way brighton service when the manhattan bridge was fully open
"Sea Beach riders don't want a permanent weekend shuttle."
The service on the sea beach is so bad on weekends a permentant OPTo shuttle if stuctured correctly would provis better service then they currently have.
"NYCT budget poeple will turn down a plan that provides excessive service."
The MTA currenty runs tons of excess service. These guys are not doing a very good job. If they were they would be investing heavily in platform CCTV to run inteligent OPTO system wide and would have GPS bases bus tracking in dispatching running where possible saving hundreds of millions of dollars a year
(The MTA currenty runs tons of excess service.)
True but irrelevant. You can't get a plan with excessive spending past the budget watchdogs on the grounds that excessive spending is occurring elsewhere.
THe argument will go something like this. The extra $3 million to operate the service is a small part of the $4 billion MTA overall budget therefore it is not a big deal
Which is why I advocated running it on the Sea Beach, where it can be reduced to a shuttle without any problems.
No problems for you. The Sunset Park crowd will be very upset to have the West End running somewhere other than Grand St. Combined with the Sea Beach riders, they may have a sizeable voice.
Whatever you do, someone will be pissed. Can't be helped.
Chinese ridership is heavier on the Sea Beach than the West End. If that's your argument, the B should definatley be swapped with the N.
That argument is silly, anyway. Despite the 2001 whiners, Chinese commuters in south Brooklyn now use Canal St, despite the availability of the M to the nearby Bowery station and the practically unused Grand St. shuttle bus.
I couldn't agree more. But so is the argument that Brighton riders can't get used to the letter B.
My point is that whatever changes are made, many vocal people will be upset and will say so. Therefore, I hope NYCT does what's actually best for the public as a whole, even if it means renaming a line or 2.
wayne
Yes it is. But it's very clear the budget people don't want to pay for the B (or any 4th CPW service) to go there on weekends.
(Though if this were the only concern, one of the four services could be cut back somewhere else on affected weekends.)
(B)- 145th St to Coney Island, via West end, 4th av exp, CPW local. rush hours to Bedford Pk Blvd.
(B)-145th st to Brighton Beach, via Brighton exp.
The reason why the Ta plan makes more sense in this instance is that the TA has combined the 2 extranneous routes from the north and the south: the CPW local/ 6th av express and the Brighton express. Further, they keep the tradition that existed for years when 6th ave service across the bridge was an option: brighton expresses go to 6th avenue. I had thought the D would be the weekday exp/weekend local, but this plan allows full time Q service, which is nice so that there will be 2 broadway/2 6th av services down in brooklyn on the weekends.
(D)- 205th st to Coney Island, via Brighton local
(D)- 205th st to Coney Island, via West End Line
This plan gives the west end train a northern terminal on the weekends, instead of the silly Pacific truncation that exists for one of the 4th av lines right now. Plus, it allows the Broadway Line to maintain a weekend express service, something that cant be done otherwise.
(M)- Metropolitan av to 9th av bkyln weekdays.
(M)- Metropolitan av to chambers weekdays
Barry sez he knows TA planners, and that this is what they will do, but keep in mind, they are the ones who cut the service back, riders had to fight for this service and it doesnt get mush usage. Seems that the TA plan is the most likely one.
(N)- Astoria to Coney Island, via Sea Beach/Broadway express.
(N)- Astoria to Coney Island, via Sea Beach/Broadway express. weekends via bridge but local on broadway.
Not much argument here, although it seems that the N will run local in some shape or form on the weekends. It's interesting to note that if the suggested 'D as Brighton local' plan goes through, there will be no Broadway expresses on the weekend, and possibly no southside bridge service, if the final plan shifts the weekend N train to the tunnel.
(Q)- 57/7th to Brighton Beach. Brighton/Broadway exp. weekdays
(Q)- 57/7th to Brighton Beach. Brighton local. All times.
The TA plan makes more sense, because the F is not too far away, and weekend 6th av riders could go take that. Plus, it maintains weekend broadway express service, something that Barry's plan wouldnt compensate for.
(R)/(W)- No debate here.
Everyone here seems to be attached to the D on brighton not as a logical service arrangement, but because it's 'tradition'. Sure, the TA plan might have a few kinks to work out, but its certainly an idea thats better and more innovative (if that word applies) than the ones put forth by subtalkers. If you subtalkers think about it logically, instead of with this 'tradition' attitude, you'll see that the TA plan makes a lot of sense.
I'd also like to note the following: Does weekend Lower Broadway/Montague service really need 2 trains? Does the R ever get that crowded on the weekends? Maybe running the W there right now is a test to see if the N should be sent via bridge/local on the weekends.
Note that "Barry's" plan doesn't say what the West End Line does on the weekends. Whatever choice you put in for that, someone will be upset. That's why I think the B/D switch will happen: it annoys the fewest people, and annoys most of them in pretty minor ways. For Yankee fans who live on the Brighton line, the B/D switch is bad. For almost everyone else, it's either neutral or good.
The only alternatives are:
1) Swap the B and D on the Concourse and Central Park West, so the full time service on the Concourse and West end can be called the B not the D, leaving the weekday only service as the B.
2) Make the D full time on the Brighton and the Q full time on the West End. But this would mean all Broadway services at Pacific Street and all 6th Avenue services at DeKalb, eliminating cross-platform transfers.
The former changes nothing but letters, the latter makes service worse for everyone so that Chris can have the letter he wants onthe Brighton. Makes no sense.
As for the lack of a third service on the Brighton, perhaps if they replace all the old tracks and switches at Church, express, extend the V and G, and implement F express service this will draw riders away from the Brighton, reducing its crowding.
West End goes to 6th Ave (orange B) on weekdays and to Broadway/57th (yellow B) on weekends.
This gives the Brighton riders their weekend 6th Ave service (if they care, which I'm not sure they do). It causes mild confusion for West End riders, but they're used to their trains going different places at different times.
I think the TA will choose the B/D swap just because it's simplest.
What's so objectionable about simplicity? Does somebody have a vested interest in ensuring rider confusion? (After all, a pattern that's easy to understand is also easy to use.)
I think two services are as badly needed on the local south of Canal as north of Canal. The R and W do get crowded at times.
However, NYCT's proposal calls for the weekend N to run local north of Canal but via bridge -- I suppose because the Q, as the (current) only bridge service on weekends, is even more crowded over the bridge than the tunnel trains are through the tunnel. I don't like it but I suppose I can't argue. If the R ends up overcrowded or local passengers complain too much, the weekend N could always be moved to the tunnel as a later adjustment.
I should, and I do, point out that under the draft plan, there would be no W service on weekends, or late nights, for that matter.
No. If there were, a Brighton express would run.
By my own observations, Q trains are reasonably crowded on Sundays, but only as far south as Church. Running express service all the way from Brighton Beach to handle the crowds at one station doesn't seem worthwhile.
True - the extra loading can be handled by running a little more frequently. AND, because the Q would go only to 57th Street, the Concourse wouldn't have to be overserved because of one Brighton station.
You're absolutely right.
I doubt that the R will be overcrowded, though. I just don't see the lower Broadway line as generating more demand than the F train, which has 7 stops in Manhattan (actually 8 in New York County) that are only served at 8 minute headways on weekends, just like the R.
At this point I have four basic objections to NYCT's proposed plan: there's only one night/weekend CPW local, there's only one night BMT Broadway local, the midday M terminates at Chambers, and the weekend N uses the bridge. I'm still concerned about the first and second. I can't blame NYCT for the third, since the midday M is very lightly used south of Broad, but I still think that it's an important missing link for the few who use it. The fourth is easy enough to correct at a later date if my concern proves true that I won't waste any time worrying about it.
Thanks for that Barry. Only one comment: the Astoria line needs to be served 24/7. Therefore, instead of having the one late night 4th Av. feeder the R, it should be the N or W. Queens Blvd. service late nights would remain as is.
I'm going to have to stop dissing the TA. I can't believe my train will be the Broadway Express and over the Manny B as well. I can hardly contain my elation. That is what the Sea Beach should be all about. Please TA, don't change your mind.
Fred, now that I'm pretty sure you've already looked at the tentative Manny B Rough Draft. I sure already notice the N run via Manny Bridge all time except night. Do you think N should run via rathole at nite?
I'm with you on this, Kev. The D is a Brighton train, the younger brother of the Q. They are a family and must stick together.
I don't understand this business of giving more importance to the name of a train than to where it goes and how often.
The stations served by the following trains have been changed over the past 25 years or so:
A, B, C, E, F, G, J (in rush hours), M, N, Q, R, 1, 4, 5, 9. (And of course the V and W are new).
Why is the name "D" so sacred?
Be careful. The god of the D's will exact retribution...
:0)
Because D is an epigraqphic abbreviation of Deus, Divi, m., God.
It's not quite as weird as the Greek word Zeus though, which has a genitive Dios.
Well ... at least the Dubya's done in 2004. That's gotta be good news. :)
Only in Brooklyn. Harry's caption said, "W - Astoria - Whitehall, rush hours and middays and evenings."
Nah, in 2004 the Dubya's done. :)
Our "bridge buddy" went political after I'd kept my mouth shut for a while, I just HAD to make that comment in the interest of "fair and balanced" ... heh.
Subway grrl
In Frederick Kramer's book," Building the Independent Subway, on page 40, there is a picture of a flat-bed work motor built for the IND in 1932, under contract R-3.(Car #41)...what was the disposition of this car? Whas it scrapped in later years? Or was it preserved? And revenue collection cars 66 and 67 (R-8)....what was thier fate(s)?
"In Frederick Kramer's book," Building the Independent Subway, on page 40, there is a picture of a flat-bed work motor built for the IND in 1932, under contract R-3.(Car #41)...what was the disposition of this car?"
Drill motor #41 survives today and last I saw it in Coney Island shops was being reddied for a repainting. I believe there was another drill motor #42 which was scrapped.
" And revenue collection cars 66 and 67 (R-8)....what was their fate(s)? "
Revenue collectors #66 & #67 were both scrapped. #67 was scrapped about ten years ago, still in silver and blue paint. It was stationed in Jamaica yard. #66 was scrapped many years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the info! Shame the revenue collection cars were not saved. CC
Thanks for the info! Shame the revenue collection cars were not saved. CC
CC: The R-8 order was actually for one car only, a crane flat #71 built by the Magor Car Company in 1939.
The R-8A order was a six car order for four flat cars; Nos 07-10 and two revenue collection cars; Nos 66 and 67.
Revenue Collection Cars 66 and 67 were renumbered 20176 and 20177 respectively in March 1962 and again renumber 30176 and 30177 in June 1966. I see that Bill has already included the scrapping dates.
Nos. 41 and 42 were Drill Motors aka Motorized Flat cars built for the IND as the R-3 contract by the Magor Car Company in 1931 along with 13 other work cars.
No 42 went out of service sometime between March 1961 and October 1962 and was never included in the 20,000 series renumbering.
Car 41 was renumbed 20010 in February 1962 and subsequently renumbered back to 41 in June 1966. Car 41 was acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York in 1978 but has been on display in the Transit Museum at Court Street for many years.
I'll see what I can find out about the disposition of car 42 but it might take a few days.
Thanks much for your detailed info! CC
About #42 -
Drill Motor #42 was in a collision in 1948 and remained in storage until 1955 at 207th St Yard, at which time it was scrapped. That info is right here on the site!
-Stef
Thanks Stef: That fills in a missing piece of information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
"Revenue Collection Cars 66 and 67 were renumbered 20176 and 20177 respectively in March 1962 and again renumber 30176 and 30177 in June 1966. I see that Bill has already included the scrapping dates"
#66 was scrapped around 1980 during the great "purge" where they scrapped anything OOS (except current equip.) and even future museum cars.
"I'll see what I can find out about the disposition of car 42 but it might take a few days."
Drill Motor #42 was scrapped around 1964-65. My friend attended an Open House at 207th St in 1963 and photographed it there. It was OOS awaiting repairs, but for some unknown reason, they scrapped it anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
In July of 2002, Drill motor #41 received a new paint job in the Coney Island Paint Shop. It's a permanent part of the NYCT Museum Collection.
Some historical facts:
Drill mottor #41 was built as part of the R-3 contract.
It was built in 1932 along with #42 by the Magor Car Co.
It was 44' 7 1/2" long and weighed 75,285 Lbs including 10,000 Lbs. of ballast.
It had 4 190 HP traction motors.
The R-3 contract also included Pump car #30128
Great info! Thanks much!! CC
Why do these forums use CGI? It is incredibly slow. Why not use a free mySQL/PHP forum like Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)?
In fact the back end of this web board is mysql. I haven't found any systems I like the look and feel of better. Sorry you don't like the speed but then, you're not paying for performance.
As an end user I find this HTML text format the best by far for this sort of thing. Those "colorful", icon, small font and doodad-enfested message boards are annoying to read. And those colored backgrouns....pu-leeeeze! Fuller was right; the medium is the message. For this methodology of information transfer text on white background is the only way to go. The message is the point, not how it looks. This board sticks to that philosophy and we all should be glad for it.
Was a private USNET news server ever considered as an option for the SubTalk/BusTalk massage boards?
john
Yes, but Usenet servers are hard to maintain and at the time there wasn't any web front end available. I had set up the archives like that for a while. At this point it's not an option. If you really want a newsgroup, news:nyc.transit is available...
"Yes, but Usenet servers are hard to maintain and at the time there wasn't any web front end available. I had set up the archives like that for a while. At this point it's not an option. If you really want a newsgroup, news:nyc.transit is available..."
I was thinking of a pure USNET server that could only be accessed with USNET client like agent or the one that part of Netscape. It would configured so that it would not propagate to other USNET server nor would it except posts from other news feeds. It seem to me that the band width need for HTML web front end and other over head would make it cheaper to operate.
I except your justification for going the route you choose to go, as you are the one running this show.
I regularly visit and read about 10 different USNET news groups that relate to various transit and transportation subjects, including news:nyc.transit.
Thank for making this forum available to all us.
John
The new T-bent equipped El is slowly coming into being:
Point your browswer to: http://www.septa.org/news/20030321-20030420-16862.html
or try this link
No picture? It's kind of hard to visualize it, even with the articke you provided...
Sorry about that. I no longer live in Philly.
The entire line west of Center City is being rebuilt to a single T- Bent configuration. This reduces the number of rows of pillars in the street by one, and allows easier and safer navigation by vehicles. Also, the majority of stations are being rebuilt to conform to ADA.
Will this new El look similar to the Frankford one after reconstruction? As much as the West Philly el needs replaced, it's a shame to see the almost 100 year-old structure go. It's getting pretty decrepit though :(
They should have just rehabilitated it like the did the Frankford section.
No, they're doing the right thing here. This project will make Market Street a lot safer for cars and pedestrians alike.
I just posted on the R62 roster page an article by Subtalker George Chiasson describing the R62/R62A car procurement program. It's interesting reading. For those of us who have been paying attention to the R142/R142A delivery program and its delays and troubles, going back to the lower tech R62 program will be enlightening. Suffice it to say that these "lower tech" cars had more or less exactly the same problems and delays that the R142 program has had, and look where the R62 cars are today!
-Dave
Well said, David.... So everybody, leave the R142's alone!
Don't worry, we'll all come around eventually. I used to hate the R62/62A's, and now I am really sort of liking them over the last year or two.
When the R875's come, and the R142's are about to be scrapped because of them, we will probably shed a tear (and hate the R875's).
Wow, I didn't know the last R62As were delivered in October 87. I always thought they were delivered in 1988.
Now back in the early days Was Racism a factor in not building subways in certain areas?I ask this for several reasons Ancient Irish Neighborhoods,like South Bornx,WoodLawn,Gunn Hill ,and in Brooklyn BayRidge Bensonhurst and 4 th ave were all Irish and Italian strong holds.So ofcourse those neighborhoods were served with multiple lines as time went on and demographics chaned service changed even though the population grew.Was it the fact that the transit infastucture was majorally White,that they decided not to build in minority Neighborhoods?
Lets tread carefully here folks....
Mr. Pirmann, your advice is invaulable. A subject like this can get VERY UGLY and innocent people are bound to be hurt. Very sad, I think, where the subject of race must taint a hobby.CC
Actually, Dave, the basic premise is inappropriate and shows an ignorance of history. The ethnicity of neighborhoods now vs. their ethnicity when lines were built has usually changed considerably. In fact, in many cases, there were no neighborhoods before the advent of rapid transit.
If the argument were to be framed in any terms, it should be an examination of the industrialization of society, and the attempt to allow people to live under better conditions while working in a compact core city. The ethnicity of the people thus served depended on the enthnicity of the work force, plain and simple.
Beyond the hot issue of race and class, there is the simple problem of trying to pick a 2003 fight based on 1900 realities. If you don't know what the 1900 realities were, you can't have a civil discussion, no matter how well or badly intentioned.
Excellent point.
Racism is a valid subject, however, within transit. It is something that is confronted in our lives, and, where transit is concerned, it can affect us as passengers, as employees, as managers, and as taxpayers.
I'm glad the original poster asked a question, whih he is clearly curious about. A thoughtful discourse will be of value to us all.
I'm glad the original poster asked a question, whih he is clearly curious about.
The basic answer is "no."
A thoughtful discourse will be of value to us all.
Key word is "thoughtful." Race is rarely dicussed in a thoughtful way in current society, and SubTalk is hardly an exception.
And I gave a knowledgeable answer.
Yes, you did.
And so far, we ARE having a thoughtful discourse, perhaps surprisingly enough! Paul made an excellent point, the o.p. has obviously never seen the photos of the construction of the IRT Flushing line. An el running down the middle of.... nothing. He also probably hasn't read The Impact of the IRT on New York City which describes the flow of population following the IRT construction.
The IRT was the prime mover that opened up what was basically farmland to immigrant housing development.
Not to mention I have also seen photos of the Bronx Els being built through what looked like farmland.
I've seen photos of the Ninth Avenue El in MANHATTAN being built through farmland.
the o.p. has obviously never seen the photos of the construction of the IRT Flushing line. An el running down the middle of.... nothing.
I've seen those pictures many times, and they never cease to amaze me.
Anyone have any? I think I saw only one pic which I think GP38 Chris had. It was the Sunnyside viaduct with nothing on either side of it! The stuff you'd see in Kansas. ... :)
Really interesting considering what Sunnyside looks like today...
The Flushing line is an excellent example in several ways. In the early teens, there was opposition to building an elevated line through Downtown Flushing (but also, seemingly, opposition to n underground line being built through there as well) and on to Bayside. It seemed as if it was a preview of what would happen 70 years later with the Montauk Options, a question of "who gets off the train?", only in Flushing, it was directed towards a lot more ethnic groups (most of whom live in Flushing now). Similar feelings probably also let to the opposition to the plans for the Crosstown and Stuyvesant/Utica lines from that era.
At the same time, it's quite correct to note the impact that the constructions of the subways have had on this city. As someone who lived in Sunnyside for a number of years, it's hysterical to see that photo of that neighborhood at the time when the Flushing line was built (the building that the photo was taken from is still standing--it's on the southeast corner of Queens Boulevard and Van Dam Street).
"A thoughtful discourse will be of value to us all."
I agree. My feeling is that exploring the politics of the time might shed some light on htese issues. Perhaps the IND vigorously proposed that miles and miles of tracks be built in Queens because Tammany Hall saw an opportunity to expand.
A previous comment on how various neighborhoods have undergone tremendous change over the years is also very relevant. Projects such as the Cross Bronx Expressway profoundly influenced areas such as the South Bronx, for example. Maybe Robert Moses is to blame for most of these things...
Projects such as the Cross Bronx Expressway profoundly influenced areas such as the South Bronx, for example. Maybe Robert Moses is to blame for most of these things...
That's at least in part a (literally) urban legend. Much of the South Bronx was already deteriorating before the Cross-Bronx came through. Had it never been built, the area almost certainly would have continued its decline, albeit possibly at a slower pace.
That's true I believe. IINM, the Bushwick Expressway was also supposed to go right through Bushwick or Bed-Stuy which also at the time was already pretty run down or beginning to get run-down.
And look what happened anyway. The Bushwick Expresswasy was never built, and Bushwick and Bedford-Stuyvesant fell apart anyway.
Of course, all of these expressways reflect a very automobile-centered mode of thinking for the city and its suburbs, and I can't help but think the implications of that would tend to be bad for rail prospects.
To put my previous political hypothesis to work on a question that crossed my mind this evening: Why is it that until very recently (with the R-143 cars nowadays, and perhaps with the R-40M/R-42 cars in the late 1960's)the BMT Eastern Division seems to have had the oldest rolling stock, and the least upgraded aspects, e.g., 480 foot platforms?
Politics aside, you have to keep in mind that the Easteron Division of the BMT is notorious for the curves (particularly on the Els) which do not allow for the 75' cars commonly found on the B2 Division (IND). That's why the J/Z, the M and L lines are almost exclusive to the 60' R-40M's & R-42's.
Oh, I know that, the BMT Eastern Division supposedly cannot have R-44, R-46, or R-68 cars, but how this does explain the tendency for the Division to receive much older equipment, e.g., like the history of rolling stock on the Canarsie line, viewable at: http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/canarsie/
Also, how is it that at least the Canarsie line can service the Standards, with their 67' foot length, apparently well, but the 75' cars present clearance problems? I wonder what the magic number is.
Not sure...but from my railfanning experience I can say that the Cresent Street curve on Jamaica El is more likely sharper than anything on the L line, so that might explain the Standard's abilities to run the 14th Street-Canarsie Line.
You gotta also keep in mind the very nature of the Canarsie Line: it's characterisitics are like that of a large shuttle line -- with two tracks only...one running north, and one south. And being isolated from most of the rest of the NYCT system makes it a place for 'hand-me-downs' or cars that otherwise become 'orphans' of the system.
I've seen photos of the standards at 168th Street on the Jamaica Avenue El, so that leads me to believe that the trains could negotiate the curve.
The Flushing line is probably the counterpart to the Canarsie line in terms of isolation; it's even more isolated (only connection to the rest of the system is via Queensboro Plaza). It does have the express track. But it doesn't seem to have suffered from any sort of 'hand me down' condition.
Not that I mind older cars; I love 'em. I'm just trying to better understand this 'hand me down' phenomenon on the Eastern Division. Given a choice between a ride in an older and newer car, with no wildly divergent MDBF, I'd choose the older cars.
The Flushing line had Redbirds until recently. It now has R62s, while the rest of the IRT is getting the R142(A)s. This looks like a hand-me-down to me.
John
"The Flushing line had Redbirds until recently. It now has R62s, while the rest of the IRT is getting the R142(A)s. This looks like a hand-me-down to me"
Yes, but lets consider a few other things: The R142s can't run on the #7....you can use the search engine and go back to other posts explaining why. But lets say hypothetically the line and corona yard was upgraded to handle them....it is still a very short line like Canarsie. Therefore, like BMTman suggested, this line is more prone to older cars. -Nick
Isn't the 7 supposed to get new rolling stock once it has CBTC installed? I'd think new rolling stock is a premise for testing CBTC. That's why the L has R143's doesn't it? The only thing I need to identify are those transponders along the tracks. What are they?
Yes, that's the main reason the R-143's showed up on the Canarsie Line first. Due to the characteristics about the Line that I mentioned earlier, it lends itself much easier to the testing and implementation of CBTC than other transit lines.
The 7 flushing line is next for CBTC. They will get the R-142 or the next train order that will be equipted with CBTC. IF the L line implimentation goes well, expect to see a rather agressive roll out schedule for the 7.
In addtion the WF cars on the 7 except for the lack of AC were nice cars.
Any idea when?
I already see massive construction along the line, every day, including weekends, hastily replacing the old signals. Is this part of the CBTC preparation?
(Any idea when? I already see massive construction along the line, every day, including weekends, hastily replacing the old signals. Is this part of the CBTC preparation?)
I'm afraid there are many years of construction ahead. The current project is replacing three major interlockings at 111th Street, Willets Point, and Main Street. The next job will replace the interlockings along the rest of the line. Another job to replace the Corona Yard signals and install CBTC, and another project to replace the the automatic signals on the whole line and install CBTC, will begin design soon. These jobs will be coordinated with the Flushing Extension, if it happens. In any event, construction start in 2006, fininsh in 2010 or so.
When it's all done, along with all the station work, structural work, etc., the Flushing line will be the most modern in the system. It will also have all new cars.
Right now, in contast, once the White Plains Rd. signals are replaced, Flushing will have the oldest signals in the system, and it will be the only IRT line without the new ATS and Public Address/Customer information systems, until CBTC comes along. And, of course, the Flushing Line was the home of the old Redbirds. From oldest to newest in seven years.
Right now, in contast, once the White Plains Rd. signals are replaced, Flushing will have the oldest signals in the system, and it will be the only IRT line without the new ATS and Public Address/Customer information systems, until CBTC comes along.
I don't think any of the Manhattan mainline IRT stations have PA/CIS displays yet, at least not on the West Side. Has the wiring been installed?
(I don't think any of the Manhattan mainline IRT stations have PA/CIS displays yet, at least not on the West Side. Has the wiring been installed?)
The fiber optic network for the A division is being installed now. The one for the B division is being designed.
The Automatic Train supervision system (which would pass constant info as to where the trains are back to the rail control center) for the A division is being installed now, the one for the B division is being designed.
The Public Address/Customer Information system, which would route the information back from the Rail Control center back to announcments and displays, is about to be awarded for the A division. Two contractors are competing. The one for the B division is in master plan.
For CBTC lines, the CBTC system takes the place of ATS. Most of the IND won't get ATS; they will wait for CBTC for PA/CIS to be operational. A separate contract to install PA/CIS on the Canarsie Line was just awarded. My guess is they'll do PA/CIS on the Flushing Line to coincide with CBTC installation, ie. by 2010. The rest of the IRT should have a functioning system by them. Other IND lines would get PA/CIS with CBTC. The Culver is scheduled next after Flushing.
If all goes according to plan.
The Flushing Line had a functioning PA/CIS 40 years ago. Something with similar capability could be implemented inexpensively using modern off the shelf technology in under a year.
It's the first time in history, anyway. It's about time the Mainline got something new for a change and leave the 7 in the dust. :)
Besides, with CBTC planned for the 7, that should be an indication that it will receive new rolling stock for itself, judging from other posts around here.
> This looks like a hand-me-down to me
First one ever, for the Flushing line.
new cars (R33/R36 WF) in 1964, also had had some Mainline R33/R36 until the WF cars arrived starting in 1962 or so; replaced cars only 14-16 years old
new cars (R12-R14-R15) when those were bought 1948-1950; replaced cars only 9-11 years old!
new cars (IRT Low-V world's fair) in 1939
IRT Steinways-- needed special gearing, so new, special cars back then too
After 1964 it was 20 years before there were new cars ANYWHERE on the IRT. The R62/R62A replaced a lot of old crap still on the IRT main lines, R12-14-15-21-22, whereas the Flushing cars were only 20 years old and about to go into GOH and receive a/c and such. The people whining about not getting new cars on the Flushing line clearly have no idea about the past rolling stock history of the line... I'm sure our friend Widecab5 would be pleased to detail the rolling stock history of the Flushing line in great detail but you get the idea.
With that argument, very well made, I don't think we on the Flushing line have been subjected to this 'hand me down' effect. Perhaps it is true that the World's Fairs played a huge part in this, but the result seems pretty clear to me, that the Flushing line has not had a hand me down rolling stock, the point I was originally, and probably badly trying to make.
After reading all of the posts generated by my queries so far, I don't feel that any hand me down effect on the Eastern Division was racially motivated, despite whatever some politicians might say, from time to time. It had more to do with what I take was decreased or at least relatively lower ridership on the lines, which did not tend to encourage upgrades so that the era of 75' cars could be ushered in on the Eastern Division.
Of course, it could be said, in objection my finding, that transit officials surely knew that cars in production during the 75' era, the R-44, R-46, R-68, R-68A, they could not run on the Eastern Division. I don't think this is a good objection though, in that the Eastern Division did receive cars out of the late 1960's era, the R-40M, R-42, and some R-40. The R-16 also seems to have been chosen for the line, but it appears from the posts on that model that it receives the lemon award.
Thanks for all of the responses. I've one last question: Given the impact of 75' cars on the Eastern Division, is the era of the 75' car over forever, or at least until the Eastern Division is upgraded (which may tend towards the former)?
I don't necessarily think that the it's the end of the 75 foot cars forever, on the lines that can handle them. However, I don't think it would be cost effective to ever upgrade the ED to handle them. However, that doesn't mean that if ridership ever does skyrocket that perhaps they may one day extend platforms to handle longer trains (10 car 60 foot trains), not in the remotely near future of course. But as for 75 foot cars on the ED, it probably will never happen.
I just wanted to add though that I think one of the major problems with extending platforms on the Eastern Division it that there are many island platforms. It's relatively easy to extend platforms on side platforms stations (even on underground L stations). However, Island platform stations require many times to realign trackways. WHile all the Jamaica Avenue and Broadway El staions (with the exception of the express stations) would be easy to extend because they are side platform stations, all the stations on the M north of Knickerbocker, and the Fulton section of the J would require very expensive realignment work. The bang for your buck just isn't there. It would be easy just to increase TPH, than to rebuild for longer trains.
(I just wanted to add though that I think one of the major problems with extending platforms on the Eastern Division it that there are many island platforms.)
Also, on the J/M, they don't need more than 6 trains per hour to handle the load except for 1 hour each in the morning and evening. If they had longer trains, they wouldn't be able to reduce frequency without seriously increasing waiting times.
The L could admittedly use longer trains, though I personally prefer 8 car trains at 6 minute headways to 10 car trains at 7.5 minute headways. Probably they plan to go to OPTO eventually once they have CBTC and proper video monitoring equipment installed. That would get more bang for the buck than 10 car platforms.
I think the era of the 75 foot car is over. The impetus for the program in the first place was to provide trains of the same length with fewer cars to maintain, thus saving money. They ended up with two incompatible fleets in the B-division, dictated by the line profile- curves and tunnels and such, and cars with 20% fewer doors per train, meaning on the busiest lines, they weren't as good as shorter cars (why the "E" has R32's most of the time, for instance). I think even if they need more cars there is more money to be saved by having a single standardized fleet. And besides, I'm not really sure why people complain about the short cars in the Eastern Division; since they can't have the longer cars at all, would they rather have the even older R32's? Would the average person even know the difference?
Would the average person even know the difference?
I think all the average person cares about is getting to and from work. The only ones that care are the railfans. :)
And besides, I'm not really sure why people complain about the short cars in the Eastern Division; since they can't have the longer cars at all, would they rather have the even older R32's? Would the average person even know the difference?
It's railfans that read too much into this whole new car thing. The general public doesn't care how old the trains are, as long as they are clean, and get them to where they are going. I remember back around 1989 when the rebuilt R42's were coming back to the M , L, and J lines. Most people thought they were riding NEW trains. They had no idea they were riding the same disasters they were riding a year or two earlier (or cared). Actually, I'm sure that was true for many of the rebuilds as they were coming back to the other lines as well.
I'm sure there are even regular riders of the 7 line that even think they are riding new cars on the 7 with the R62A's. We often forget that the general public doesn't care about car class or where else they ran, or if they ran somewhere else. To them they are new trains.
Well said. And the R62s are, from an average passenger's point of view, a distinct improvement over a Redbird.
Concidering NYCT maintance has done an excellant job reducing car failure rates on all car clases, the riding public does not care that one car is newer then another.
If the older cars were breaking down constantly, it would be a different issue
The issue of locked end doors on 75' cars also enters into the discussion.
Quite true. Another unfortunate issue that really makes the MTA turn away from the aspect of purchasing 75' cars for the system...
" don't feel that any hand me down effect on the Eastern Division was racially motivated, despite whatever some politicians might say, from time to time"
Politicains and many of the Yellow jurnalism local tv stations are just out to incite people. It is a proven fact that people who are angry are more motivated to take action then those who are happy.
Therefore people who are angry are more likely to take the time to vote or tune into the local news. It is a common practice in politics. Just read the campaign materials during political elections or your local politicains comments in the neighborhood or church paper, they are filled with stories of alleged injustice and how your savior is fighting for your cause. The injustice potrayed depends on the community you are in and are tailored to bring up people worst fear.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the local politicians serve no purpose. They must justify thier existance and mobilize thier base by creating anger in thier community. US vs Them which often feeds people feeling that thier race is why thier area is being short changed.
The real reson why many inner city areas are very run down is ussually that thier politician is pocketing his descretionary budget and taking bribes to keep coorporate america out.
Park playgrounds are a good example. The city budget to rebuild park playgrounds is vertually nill over the last 20 years. Where I live we have had our 3 playgrounds in Marine Park redone twice in the last 20 years. Each time out of the concilmans and state senators descretionary budget they recieve to win over voters
There was another example in the post of a local politicain stealing from his constituants. In this case the guy got caught because he was at total moron. He billed his expense account for milage he allegely drove his provate car to and from albany. The only problem is that he had not drivers license or car. The kicker is he never billed in for Tolls on the NYS thurway. That a nice trick going from NYC to Albany without taking the thurway. Under current law if convicted he gets to keep is pension no matter what crime he commits. No worries http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/71764.htm
(That a nice trick going from NYC to Albany without taking the thurway.)
Bronx River Parkway, Sprain Parkway, Taconic Parkway, brief piece of routes 203 and 9, I-90. A much more pleasant ride than the Thruway, shorter in distance and not much longer in time.
The route you took is a major longer more tretourous ride then the thruway. For example the teconic is a two lane highway with narrow lanes. In the fall it is covered with leaves that slow you down.
The thurway you can also drive much faster
The shortest quickest way is through NJ taking the palisades or garden state parkway and then the thruway the rest of the way.
The Taconic is a four-lane highway, just like most of the Thruway.
And while the Taconic is a slower route than the Thruway, it's also a much more pleasant drive. Someone not in a rush might easily opt for the Taconic.
The route you took is a major longer more tretourous ride then the thruway. For example the teconic is a two lane highway with narrow lanes. In the fall it is covered with leaves that slow you down.
The thurway you can also drive much faster
The shortest quickest way is through NJ taking the palisades or garden state parkway and then the thruway the rest of the way.
http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&ct=NA&1y=US&1a=&1p=&1c=&1s=&1z=11234&1ah=&2y=US&2a=&2p=&2c=albany&2s=ny&2z=&2ah=&lr=2&x=26&y=7
True, but as has been mentioned here, this is the first time in awhile that the Flushing line has gotten second-hand equipment, recall the R-12/R-14/R-15s and the R-33/R-36 World's Fair cars were all new equipment on that line.
>>> But [the Flushing line] doesn't seem to have suffered from any sort of 'hand me down' condition. <<<
You should have seen all the wailing and crying from the #7 partisans on this board when the R-142 came out. All of them have gone to the main line with Redbirds, then R-62s handed down to the Flushing line.
Previously two world's fairs had caused the Flushing line to get the most modern equipment to impress the tourists.
Tom
I wonder if we have the same effect, should NYC win the 2012 Olympics...?
The flushing line is scheduled to get newer equiptment once it's signals are upgraded for CBTC which should be around the same time the olympics come to town
The Barn at Corona is scheduled for upgrades that will allow the r-142 or new orders to be sent there way
Any information available as to when that upgrade will take place?
I had mostly considered the 1964 fleet on the Flushing line, and that is too narrow. Still, the 1 and 3 lines retained pre-1964 equipment until the R-62 and R-62A rolled in, and that was the mid 1980's or even later, if I recall correctly.
In any case, so long as the MDBF on the cars is acceptable, I'm not certain that there should be any complaints. Some people will probably complain no matter what, e.g., if the 7 line received the R-142 cars with their frequent breakdowns, would there have been complaints that the line was serving as guinea pig?
Between the R-42 and the R-143, every B Division car was a 75-footer. They couldn't run on the Eastern Division -- that's why they weren't assigned to the Eastern Division.
As already mentioned, all the trains ordered after the last new cars the Eastern Division got were 75 feet (they did get a few of the R40-42's in the late 60's). In addition, by the time the 75 foot cars were coming, many of the Eastern Division's neighborhoods were falling apart, and ridership was decreasing.
Middle Village, Ridgewood, Greenpoint, Woodhaven, Richmond Hill, Canarsie, (and others along the Eastern Division lines) were and still are viable neighborhoods, and those neighborhood's stations were well used even then, but many of the sections in between became burnt out and abandoned so it wasn't necessary to upgrade the Eastern Divsion to handle longer trains or 75 foot cars. The ridership just wasn't there. It has nothing to do with race. And the reason the JML lines seemed to be getting hand-me-downs is because the older cars were the 60 foot cars and the 75 foot cars were the new cars, and couldn't run on the JML. Not to mention that even though the R16's looked like hand-me-downs, they were the Eastern Divisions own originals.
If you think about it, the Eastern Division wasn't all that shafted. It had the newest 60 foot cars (The R42's were spread around all over the place when they were new), and when they were rebuilt who got the "newest 60 foot cars" (the R42's) of the time --- The Eastern Division! I don't see any argument at all of racism playing a part of the treatment of the Eastern Division. No one could have known at the time that the ED's own brand new R16's would turn into "the beasts" during their stay there.
The Eastern Division did get it's fair share of the newest cars able to run on it. The long gap in between, when it seemed like it was getting shafted was the era of the 75 foot cars.
R-16 trivia: The remnants of a switch track between the Canarsie Line and the LIRR (just north of the s/b platform) was originally put in so the R-16 cars could go to the scrapper's torch right on the Bay Ridge branch...they literally tore the cars apart a few feet from the Canarsie line...
Uh...I should have pointed out that the platform in question is the New Lots Ave.
I bet you could hear the R16's screaming in pain right next to their former home on the L. Sad.
They may have been lemons, but they were probably the most abused cars the subway has seen. At least the R30's and R10's were cleaned up and dressed up when they met the torch.
As someone who lived in the Bronx at the time, you're right. The Cross Bronx DEFINITELY accelerated the decay. However many may not be aware that the early "cause" of the deterioration of the South Bronx was actually the flight from the Concourse area caused by the opening of CO-OP CITY ... if only Freedomland hadn't gone down the dumper, the Bronx might have survived longer before it finally started turning back around for the better in the southern portions ...
Open a map, folks. You're discussing the wrong neighborhoods. The Cross Bronx doesn't run through the South Bronx, so of course it didn't (directly) affect the South Bronx.
(The Cross Bronx doesn't run through the South Bronx)
There has been a tendency to refer to the South Bronx as that part of the Bronx that is or was economically severely disadvantaged. The scope of what is called the South Bronx expanded dramatically between 1970 and 1990 to definitely include the Cross-Bronx Expressway area.
I don't agree with this name change, but it definitely happened.
Its funny, the BQE cut though and uprooted thousands of homes in Bay Ridge(at 7th AVE/FT hamilton parkway between 65th street and 101st street. In fact it isolated the entire area. It is interesting how the expressway destroyed the area in the bronx, but not in brooklyn. The area around where the expressway was built was never an affluent part of Bay Ridge.
For those of us who lived in the Bronx, that monstrosity at 177th became a defacto "border" between the North and South Bronx. To locals, the South Bronx actually extended north of 156th St. :)
My guess (from my city planning days) is that New York is too big for the *subway* system to have skipped any ethnic areas, although I have some doubts about the New Haven MNRR line (why can't I use my Fordham part of the ticket, just because Connecticut is putting up part of the subsidy?). Usually African-American settlement patterns prior to the sixties followed areas that were once Jewish, because other ethnic groups were much more discriminatory in selling houses, so you'd see a star-shaped pattern with black families following only one or two legs of the star. But I don't think the subway lines skipped any of those legs -- the Canarsie line, East Bronx IRT lines, out Fulton St. Southern PATH lines?
Incidentally, Cincinnati, where I come from, which was REALLY racist, also had this star-shaped pattern. African-American families didn't live closer to town, they lived along a couple of routes leading out of town both near and far. Of course, guess who didn't get the on-ramps to the expressways, but got the expressways run right over their heads? There were Robert Moseses everywhere in those days.
Did you know Robert Moses made the overpasses on the parkways so low that no one could get to Jones Beach or Orchard Beach by bus? Yup. You had to own a car to use a Robert Moses beach. He was a real piece of work.
"Did you know Robert Moses made the overpasses on the parkways so low that no one could get to Jones Beach or Orchard Beach by bus? Yup. You had to own a car to use a Robert Moses beach. He was a real piece of work. "
Uh, nope. For Jones or Moses Beaches, all you have to do is take Sunrise Highway out to the appropriate parkway and go south. Both of `em have bus service.
The Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway was supposed to end on the Wantagh Parkway south of Merrick Road, providing a controlled access link for commercial vehicles to Jones Beach.
The state still owns the land for the extension.
I'm going from a secondary source, "The Power Broker," so I'll admit not knowing personally, or the author could have been talking about when the system first opened (I don't know the LI highways). He was not enamored of Moses' attitude toward the poor.
I'll back you up here, I read one of Moses' own documents back when I worked for the city, and in his own notes in his own handwriting on a memo questioning the curvature and bridge clearances, he WROTE "don't want any "n******* in buses" on *MY* parkways. That's why buses had to take alternate routes on existing streets. But I *saw* that with my OWN eyes in Percy Sutton's office when I worked for WLIB. Percy and Dave Dinkins had quite a collection of "memorabilia" about racism in suburban and mass transit planning.
Robert Caro is a very meticulous historian; he really immersed himself in Robert Moses, and later, and still, Lyndon Johnson. Although "The Power Broker" is a massive tome, it's *very* well researched-Caro is not one to make things up.
Well, it's an imperfect world. But still, the beaches are there. The automobile culture is here. There were always other roads than the parkways. Plenty and plenty and plenty of folk from Brooklyn/Queens, at least, have no problem whatsoever getting to these beaches. The access to them wouldn't have been there if not for Moses. So whaddya carpin' about? You get a marvelous public recreational facility, unequaled in this area, and you're gonna bitch about something the planner scribbled down somewhere?
Tell me somethin', bro. What have YOU built or designed or accomplished that has offered millions of people peace of mind? Being witty on message boards?
I watched a tape a few years ago that dealt with the Subway's influence in Harlem. The Subway pushed way north into the outskirts of New York. It seems that an over eager builder at the time built too many houses in the then suburb of Harlem. The White population didn't want to be that far from downtown so they never moved up. The realtor/builder was losing money and he decided to advertise his properties to the African - American community at a discounted price. The builder was then able to recoup his losses and the African - American neighborhood in Harlem was born. All due to the NYC Subway.
There is no evidence that minority neighborhoods didn't get subways. One of the last big subway improvements outside the CBD was the Fulton Street line, which was built at a time when a small Afro-American community was already established in Bed-Stuy. Indeed, if you mean Blacks and Latinos, most of the subways were built when very few lived anywhere in the city.
In my view, racism affected subways later on, in what was NOT built in WHITE neighborhoods. Precisely because they did serve Blacks and Latinos, they became less attractive to middle income whites, who were taking to their cars. The 1960s fight to keep subways out of white, southwest Queens is, I believe, the only case of race affecting subway placement.
There is another example, however: The aborted extension of the IRT Flatbush Avenue Line...as part of one of those 'grand' NYCTS plans of the '50's, the line was supposed to continue down Nostrand, extending into and terminating near Marine Park (Voorhies Ave.). While the main reason for the NIMBYism from the residents was that they felt lied to by the city (plan said a subway, but reality was an 'unsightly' elevated line), there were elements of racism/classism as the line's proposed extension would've allowed people from northern Brooklyn neighborhoods -- primarily black & latino -- access to more affluent, and largely white, Marine Park and Sheepshead Bay.
"Marine Park (Voorhies Ave.). "
Marine park is almost 2 miles from voorhees ave.
People just did not want a noisy subway running through there quiet streets.
As for race and class. Sheepshead bay and Marine Park are not exactly upscale exclusive neighborhoods. They are working to middle class neighborhoods. No more. People did not want the suburban feel of there neighborhoods ruined by a noisy elevated subway. Many of the people in the neighborhood came over from the crowed areas in bensonhurst, kings highway and other crowed areas in brooklyn. If the subway were built the scale of the neighborhood would have changed from on and two family homes to more densly packed apartment buildings and 4 family walk ups that are more common along the rail lines. People looking to push the project through played the race card.
Sheepshead bay was saddled with TWO out of apartment scale apartment building housing project and did not trust the city. Once the plan was exposed as an elevated line. The mistrust ended the project
In the case of Marine Park a subway line would have boosted housing values and thus the scale of development. In the 1950's half of marine park housing stock was yet to be built. People did not want the density and the grimy feel that comes with it. It has less to do with race and class as people on this board try to potray
"Marine Park (Voorhies Ave.). "
Marine park is almost 2 miles from voorhees ave.
People just did not want a noisy subway running through there quiet streets.
As for race and class. Sheepshead bay and Marine Park are not exactly upscale exclusive neighborhoods. They are working to middle class neighborhoods. No more. People did not want the suburban feel of there neighborhoods ruined by a noisy elevated subway. Many of the people in the neighborhood came over from the crowed areas in bensonhurst, kings highway and other crowed areas in brooklyn. If the subway were built the scale of the neighborhood would have changed from on and two family homes to more densly packed apartment buildings and 4 family walk ups that are more common along the rail lines. People looking to push the project through played the race card.
Sheepshead bay was saddled with TWO out of apartment scale apartment building housing project and did not trust the city. Once the plan was exposed as an elevated line. The mistrust ended the project
In the case of Marine Park a subway line would have boosted housing values and thus the scale of development. In the 1950's half of marine park housing stock was yet to be built. People did not want the density and the grimy feel that comes with it. It has less to do with race and class as people on this board try to potray
Tear down the Astoria El!
and while we're at it:
Tear down the East River!
Tear down the 76th Street Station!
Tear down the Q train!
Tear down Joe Bruno!
Seriously though, for those of us that are SubTalk veterans, they will get the joke of the first sentence.
Anyone can search the archives to see the mess racism topic caused here sometimes....luckily deleted many times.
Let's let sleeping "DOG"s stay sleeping.
And if you must wake it up, do so cautiously.
Paul, you are 100% correct - providing you are speaking about NY City. I took a course at John Jay in the Urban Development. We spent the entire semester studying NY City and Los Angeles. In the NYC model, development always followed the expansion of mass transit.
The model does not hold true for other cities such as L.A. where mass transit followed the population. Getting back to the NYC model, the ethnicity of certain communities had nothing to do with mass transit but more to do with social and economic factors not related to mass transit.
Bingo! And thanks for making that point. New York City was always more "enlightened" than other areas, and what passed as "racism" was more "class warfare" based on economics rather than race. Newly developed areas with new housing stock cost more than older, "hand me down" neighborhoods and it was THAT which was so often mistaken as racism. Anyone who had MONEY could live wherever they wanted to largely while the LESS well to do fought over the scraps.
>> such as L.A. where
mass transit followed the population. <<
Actually not. Huntington built Pacific Electric to service the housing developements he was also building. So in fact the tracks preceded the people.
As another example, the Shaker Heights RT was expressly built by the real estate brothers who were building the suburban town. Much the same can be documented in other cities, SF, Oakland, and more.
>>> Huntington built Pacific Electric to service the housing developements he was also building. <<<
And all this time I thought it was just a coincidence that the PE went all the way to Huntington Beach. :-) Now developers buy up worthless land cheap, and convince the government to build a highway through their land. Back then they built the means of getting their buyers to the land themselves.
Tom
Hey Dude, if mass transit followed the population out here like you learned in school, did the Prof also tell you that it did a crappy job of tailing the people. Our freeways are parking lots and the oil, rubber, steel and glass interests back in the early 50's made sure that our red cars were gutted so everyone could be put into an automobile. It was nothing but a filthy and selfish motive that enriched a few greedy bums. We are still paying for it today.
As a matter of fact, we discussed how the auto, petroleum and other manufacturers did 'conspire' to bring about the demise of the electric railroads. Even the subtlties of paving roads played a part. Much of NYC was paved with cobble stones. To early autos, the cobble stone meant a very uncomfortable ride while to a trolley, they were unnoticed. LA made no such use of cobble stones - and in so doing, actually promoted the growth of the auto.
Typscal corporate behavior.
>>> It was nothing but a filthy and selfish motive that enriched a few greedy bums. <<<
A shining example for all Young Republicans! :-)
Tom
[In fact, in many cases, there were no neighborhoods before the advent of rapid transit.]
True. To a large degree, the elevateds followed the "if-you-build-it-they-will-come" business model. However, the decision as to WHICH no-neighborhood areas would get elevateds were probably based on which politicians' friends had land to sell to the City (at an inflated price, of course).
I tend to agree with this point being.....if you at very old pictures of when some subway lines....line for example, the #7 line.....early photos show NO BUILDINGS at all...in certain locations along the line. Also, lets take the Bronx. Back in the day....the Bronx, in the early part of the 20th century, had little or no neighborhoods at all. In fact, parts of the Bronx were considered wilderness territory. So to say that racism played a part in transit planning is unfounded.
I tend to agree with this point being.....if you look at some of the very old pictures of when some subway lines were being built....one line for example, the #7 line.....early photos show NO BUILDINGS at all...in certain locations along the line. Also, lets take the Bronx. Back in the day....the Bronx, in the early part of the 20th century, had little or no neighborhoods at all. In fact, parts of the Bronx were considered wilderness territory. So to say that racism played a part in transit planning is unfounded. In fact, planners wanted to bring the people out of horrible living conditions in Manhattan so that they could move on out into the outer boroughs.
I can agree...for once ,someone makes so much sense it makes me dizzy.Take the Eastern division lines.Are we to say the LACK of service to midtown,or past Broad street,or any Major revamp of any kind, is directly related to the above topic? Of course not. but some would think so. those of use that know our transit history,know the BMT/BRT service improvements was stopped cold by the city,and the IND SUBWAY. Even the new IND lines thur the nabs of Bushwick,BED STY and so on where cut into nonexsistance.....So i believe the influx of any ethinc group to these parts had very little to do with rapid transit...it was just NYC inablity to build where needed.... so I would like to believe...8^)..
AND I was talking about the IND second system lines,such as the Utica ave subway....
Uh...where's E Dogg now that we need him? LOL!!! :)
Aw geez ... SLAP yerself. :)
I guess he ended up in the Dogg Pound? Woof! Woof! Mooooo!
;)
Oy ... in all sincerity, wish he hadn't lost it in that discussion way back when - it DID have many lucid moments that were a valuable learning experience for many. :(
Aye...
I didnt mean this thread to go into a whole racsim debate but into neighborhoods and there routes I will rephrase in a different post
This is a topic that could result in a library's worth of discourses. Suffice to say that the initial and key reasons for building the New York subway system (and before it, the separate el systems in Manhattan and Brooklyn) was to disperse population in the pre-auto era from the crowded Manhattan neighborhoods below Central Park to newer areas in Upper Manhattan, the Bronx, and the outlying parts of Brooklyn. Racism was certainly not a factor in building subways. If anything, the subways encouraged ethnic groups to seek new and better housing far from older, crowded neighborhoods.
A key case in point is the original IRT. When it opened in 1904, one of its unforeseen results was the beginning of Harlem as a African-American community. Prior to the early 1900s Harlem was a middle class area populated largely by first generation European immigrant groups. The 9th Ave. el extension above 110th St. (along 8th Ave.) opened Harlem originally to urban housing. The Lenox Ave. IRT route in 1904 created a wave of speculators building new apartment houses along its route. Since too many apartments were built, a housing surplus (!!) existed. A remarkable African-American realty agent named Phillip Payton spearheaded African-Americans moving from the old black ghetto (near today's Penn Station) to the new housing uptown, following the new subway line. By World War I the area around 135th and Lenox was the nucleus for Harlem's black population. So one could argue that the IRT helped create a new black neighborhood in Harlem when its housing stock was new and transit service was new, as opposed to the classic situation when older housing passes from one ethnic group to another, usually poorer, one.
Excellent work! Always a pleasure to see someone using common sense! CC
And thank you for your kind and generous words!
Excellant work. I always get a laugh when some people try to blame racism on all there problems
As I said to CC Local, thank you very much for your kind words and for taking the time to read my post.
>>> I always get a laugh when some people try to blame racism on all there problems <<<
So far in this thread I have not seen anyone doing that.
Tom
>>> the subways encouraged ethnic groups to seek new and better housing far from older, crowded neighborhoods. <<<
A good example of that would be the newer Asian neighborhoods which spread from Chinatown into Brooklyn and Flushing.
Tom
Yup, and those places are quite amazing! Real thresholds!
With the exception of the IND, most of the NY system was built at a time when most neighbohoods outside central Manhattan were enpty or lightly settled. Pictures previoisly shown here have documented LIRR as a surface operation before the grade separation projects. In those photos very little is built up.
In turn photos of my grandfather's 'hood in Chicago from just before my mother was born show vacant lots and a realty office. The Illinois Central commiter line had few riders until the housing got built. As a corrollary, when I was a publisher's rep in NYC, very few bookstores of any consequence were any distance from a subway station.
Location, location. location...
And no neighborhood I have ever lived in has remained ethnicly inert.
Now back in the early days Was Racism a factor in not building subways in certain areas?I ask this for several reasons Ancient Irish Neighborhoods,like South Bornx,WoodLawn,Gunn Hill ,and in Brooklyn BayRidge Bensonhurst and 4 th ave were all Irish and Italian strong holds.So ofcourse those neighborhoods were served with multiple lines as time went on and demographics chaned service changed even though the population grew.Was it the fact that the transit infastucture was majorally White,that they decided not to build in minority Neighborhoods?
I would doubt that race had much to do with the layout of the subways mainly because New York was a largely white city during the heyday of subway construction. Non-whites were concentrated in just a few areas, such as Harlem (which was well-served by the subway, of course) and maybe Bedford-Stuyvesant.
That being said, there were a couple of recent events that may have had racial aspects. NYCT's decision to rebuild rather than close the Franklin Avenue Shuttle in the late 1990's, rather than close it entirely, was motivated.
Also don't forget the replacement of Intervale Avenue.
Now back in the early days Was Racism a factor in not building subways in certain areas?I ask this for several reasons Ancient Irish Neighborhoods,like South Bornx,WoodLawn,Gunn Hill ,and in Brooklyn BayRidge Bensonhurst and 4 th ave were all Irish and Italian strong holds.So ofcourse those neighborhoods were served with multiple lines as time went on and demographics chaned service changed even though the population grew.Was it the fact that the transit infastucture was majorally White,that they decided not to build in minority Neighborhoods?
I would doubt that race had much to do with the layout of the subways mainly because New York was a largely white city during the heyday of subway construction. Non-whites were concentrated in just a few areas, such as Harlem (which was well-served by the subway, of course) and maybe Bedford-Stuyvesant.
That being said, there were a couple of recent events that may have had racial aspects. NYCT's decision to rebuild rather than close the Franklin Avenue Shuttle in the late 1990's was motivated at least in part by concerns that closing the line would have been viewed as slighting a largely minority neighborhood. More recently, community pressure from Chinatown played a part in getting the Grand Street Shuttle.
I don't think NYCT had any plans to close the Grand Street station entirely for three years.
However the Grand Street Shuttle Bus is a stupid compromise.
What goes around comes around. Where my parents live in Central Islip on Long Island, it started as scattered houses surrounded by woods with mixed black and white population. More lots got built on, and the white population slowly moved away. Became majority black. Now, Hispanics are moving in more and more. The black population is moving away.
And I've noticed that on Broadway, Brooklyn from the bridge out to Bed Stuy, you notice more Russian and Polish people in the streets. When I used to hang out in Williamsburg in the 70s, you would never see this. So it's always a fluid dynamic. You never know how the population mix will trend. I could easily extrapolate many city neighborhoods becoming Eastern European/Slavic majority. Block by block....which in itself is one of the wonders of New York. Like a slowly advancing wave......
>>> Was Racism a factor in not building subways in certain areas?I ask this for several reasons Ancient Irish Neighborhoods,like South Bornx,WoodLawn,Gunn Hill ,and in Brooklyn BayRidge Bensonhurst and 4 th ave were all Irish and Italian strong holds. <<<
Hello! When the subways were being built, being Irish or Italian (and Catholic) was certainly not considered to be at the top of the ethnic heap. The original subways were built to make a profit. Therefore they were built wherever the owners believed there would be people willing to deposit their nickels.
Tom
Your post makes me wonder about the neighborhoods along the G Line. I don't know the history, except that it seems to always be neglected by the powers that be. Currently, you can find just about any ethnic background along this line; but I think they would all be considered "working class" neighborhoods, unlike the more affluent areas. In other words, it's not the majority race vs. minorites...more blue vs. white collar that decides who gets the better service (which doesn't always have to do with race). -Nick
(I don't know the history, except that it seems to always be neglected by the powers that be.)
The powers that be tend to put less investment and expense into areas of lower density. No racism, simply lesser return on investment. It could be the Crosstown, the Sea Beach, or Far Rockaway; the complaint is the same.
You can argue that if they put in the investment, the usage would increase, but that's a different issue.
IF the area becomes more attractive, developers build more attractive housing and the cost of the housing goes up.
There are people who control neighborhoods around the city who don't want this to happan
Harlem is one example there are groups who don't want middle class housing built. Most of the developments going up along madison ave are condo's vs low income rentals. Keep in mind that most of the residents moving in are middle class african americans that want to move back live in harlem. Many grew up in harlem and want to join the reneisance.
4th ave is another example. There are groups fighing for developers to include low income housing holding up some needed new housing developemet along 4th ave
ALso that the plight the G line has is that it does not go to Manhattan. That makes it a lesser used line, and once it is a lesser used line it gets shafted. Again, nothing to do with race. The G line got shafted even when it was running to Forest Hills.
It's amusing that we talk about subway lines like they're people (of course that's a good thing when it helps us support transit).
Subway traffic has been adjusted to reflect demand. "Getting shafted" implies that people were treated unfairly. They were not.
"The G line got shafted even when it was running to Forest Hills."
Good point, Ron! -Nick
The G and other lesser-used lines are treated very well on a per capita basis.
A question (not rhetorical - I'm genuinely interested in the answer):
When I first railfanned in NYC - bear in mind I'm from England - and rode the A train to the end of the line, I discovered that Far Rockaway is an African-American area. Has it always been so? If not, can this social change be associated with the time of conversion of the line across Jamaica Bay from LIRR into subway (1956?), or from the later abolition of the double fare? Either would have made it more accessible and attractive to less affluent people moving out of the city.
When I first railfanned in NYC - bear in mind I'm from England - and rode the A train to the end of the line, I discovered that Far Rockaway is an African-American area. Has it always been so? If not, can this social change be associated with the time of conversion of the line across Jamaica Bay from LIRR into subway (1956?), or from the later abolition of the double fare? Either would have made it more accessible and attractive to less affluent people moving out of the city.
Far Rockaway's conversion into a largely minority area has little if anything to do with subway service. The conversion resulted mainly from the city's decision to locate a large amount of public housing in the area, a process which began in the late 1960's as far as I know - in other words, well after the subway's takeover of the former LIRR line.
By the way, the eastern end of Far Rockaway near the Nassau County line is a heavily Orthodox Jewish area. I think that residents of that neighborhood who commute to Manhattan mainly do so on the LIRR's Far Rockaway line.
Thank you for that interesting answer. I wonder if people's willingness to relocate to public housing in that rather remote location was improved by the fact that they could still get an inexpensive transit ride back into the city? A strong point in favour of NYC's flet-fare system, if so. Public housing on the very edge of cities is often unpopular in the UK because it incurs high travel costs to get back in, with our distance-related fare tradition. It is the norm in Paris, though, where most of the worst public-housing areas are on the outer fringes, beyond the end of the metro lines.
Thank you for that interesting answer. I wonder if people's willingness to relocate to public housing in that rather remote location was improved by the fact that they could still get an inexpensive transit ride back into the city? A strong point in favour of NYC's flet-fare system, if so. Public housing on the very edge of cities is often unpopular in the UK because it incurs high travel costs to get back in, with our distance-related fare tradition. It is the norm in Paris, though, where most of the worst public-housing areas are on the outer fringes, beyond the end of the metro lines.
I would doubt that many people living in the Far Rockaway public housing commute to Manhattan, or anywhere else for that matter. Most people who live in public housing in New York are dependent on welfare and other government benefits.
In addition, the chronic shortages of public housing in New York usually mean that people move wherever there's space available, and can't be choosy about commuting times even if they have jobs. It's also been noted that the Far Rockaway projects, given their remoteness, are sometimes used as a dumping ground for people who misbehaved while living in projects elsewhere in the city.
Your Kidding here right???
Your Kidding here right???
Not to confuse things...but the Rockaways (i.e., Rockaway Park area) is heavily Irish and has been for generations, much like Board Channel. The Irish section goes up to near Hammel's Wye on the Rockaway Branch. Then from Averne and going east it is predominantly African-American.
Most areas outside the housing projects are largely not african american or deserted. The real estate on Far rockaway, and in any beach front area(Like Coney Island) is rather valuable. In fact, after many years of delays and calls for more low income housing in the rockaways, a new market rate developement is taking shape.
The cities shortsighed decision to build public housing in the rockaways and Coney island was a disater.
1)It removed valuable real estate from the tax rolls
2)The areas are fairly isolated and far from work. Even with the A train, it is quite far from the city where a large majority of jobs are.
Many people I know who live in the rockaways(Belle Harbor Area) drive into brooklyn to get the train because the ride on the A train is so long and tedious.
Also keep in mind that when much of the public housing system was built, the racial makeup of the developements were fairly diverse. The housing projects were built for working faimilies. It was not until some politicians came up with the wise move to base ones rent on ones income instead of a flat rate pricing that the projects went to hell. You had situation where working families would pay $200 a month and the bum down the hall paid almost nothing at all. Needless to say that people with had choices to move to similar price housing elsewhere moved out leaving vacancies that were filled by those who could not or had no interest in paying.
There were some fairly nice housing projects. Not exactly palaces but decent places to bring up families.
Among other things, the new pricing policy contributed to
1)People not getting married. If you get married and you income goes up so does your rent
2)Collect wellfare and work off the books. Once agian the more money you earned on the books the more you paid in rent
3)Teenage preganacy- Some girls saw this as a way to get thier own place
I worked for the Hosuing Authorities Inspectors Generals office for 6 months a few years ago. Each resident must fill out forms similar to income tax returens which are filled periodically to determine a residents rent. Lets just say that residents pull every trick in the book to hide income and people living in the apartment. Once a week memebers of the investigative team would need to answer the "complaint line" of people rating out thier neighbors or reporting abuse by staff or residents. The above statements are bases on what people reported
The same is true of the western end of Coney Island.
--Mark
Well, as long as we're talking about controversial subjects:
So is it a sin for a Jew to ride the subway on the Sabbath if he jumps the turnstile (I understand the jumping of the turnstile would be a sin)?
To ride transit at all (except to save/improve human life) on Shabbat is a sin (in Catholic terms, a mortal sin, in protestant terms, something really wicked).
For a really observant Jew to jump a turnstile on the sabbath, well, he's gotta lot of explaining to his Rabbi to do (and trust me, he will explain it exhaustively).
Humm. How crowded is Kingston station on Eastern Parkway just after sundown Friday thru just before sundown Saturday?
"To ride transit at all (except to save/improve human life) on Shabbat is a sin (in Catholic terms, a mortal sin, in protestant terms, something really wicked). "
To ride transit on the sabbath is not a sin for Catholics or for most Protestant denominations.
I think what MarkOdegard is trying to do is give us a frame of reference. He is trying to compare what the various religions would consider a serious sin using terms that are understandable to Catholics or Protestants.
And in Unitarian terms, something you have to decide for yourself if it bothers you.:-)
Tom
The better question is why would an observant Jew be riding the subway on the Sabbath? Any place he or she would need to go is within walking distance.
I recently heard a story (second-hand) of an incident that the rabbinic intern of my (Orthodox) shul encountered.
He lives in Manhattan, but he was planning on spending Shabbos in Brooklyn. He left himself more than enough time to get there, but he didn't count on the train getting stuck between stations for about an hour. By the time the train reached 14th Street, it was already after candle lighting. (FTR: Candles are traditionally lit 18 minutes before the Sabbath strictly begins.)
What to do? He reasoned that there's no technical problem with riding a train on Shabbos since, after all, the train would make the exact same stops without his presence. The only real issue was carrying his belongings. So he gave them to a stranger (a priest, I think it was) to hold until after Shabbos and continued on his way.
"What to do? He reasoned that there's no technical problem with riding a train on Shabbos since, after all, the train would make the exact same stops without his presence."
And he got on before the Sabbath, so his presence on the Sabbath was a passive one (he did not perform any work, or pay any money).
"The only real issue was carrying his belongings. So he gave them to a stranger (a priest, I think it was) to hold until after Shabbos and continued on his way."
Interesting. Of course this occurred through no fault of his own.
Is it possible for a subway train to pass through the boundaries of an eruv, meaning the rabbi could have carried his belongings home from that point?
I don't know the exact parameters of the prohibition on carrying. If he's standing still on a train that's moving, is he carrying his belongings across domains? What if he puts them down and picks them up at the end of the trip? I don't know.
In this case, it doesn't matter. This particular individual is a member of the Solovei(t)chik family, which has a tradition to not rely on any eruv at all (at least not the sort of eruv that encompasses an entire neighborhood or borough). (On a different occasion, he once asked me to carry the notes for his sermon from his apartment to shul since he couldn't carry them himself.)
But isn't there a problem with operating the exit turnstiles?
Tom
But an eruv wouldn't help here, anyway. An eruv is only relevant when it comes to carrying. The biblical prohibition on carrying doesn't come up often -- all that's forbidden is carrying on the Sabbath in a public area through which a sufficiently large quantity of people pass. But since it's impossible for the casual observer to tell how many people pass through an area, it's easy to accidentally violate this rule, so the rabbis stiffened it up: carrying in any public area, regardless of the traffic, is out, unless it's surrounded by a visible boundary (typically a string mounted on posts). That's an eruv, and it doesn't have anything to do with doorknobs.
Sorry. I get names mixed up all the time. I mixed you up once with a certain Bernard...
Can a subway train pass through an eruv boundary and allow an observant Jewon board to continue carrying his/her belongings?
(And it was quite an honor to have been mixed up with that Bernard.)
Does exiting through a turnstile trigger anything electrical? If not, then I don't see problem.
Even if it does, it may be okay. Most uses of electricity are only rabbinically prohibited on the Sabbath. And, even if some sort of electrical response is inevitable from walking through a turnstile, the person walking through doesn't care about it -- he's just trying to walk out of the station. I think, though I'm not entirely sure, that these two mitigating factors are enough to permit the act, at least in extenuating circumstances.
If you're still worried, wait for someone to open the service gate and walk through. Or jump the turnstile. (I don't think that could be construed as theft of services.)
Theft of service is a crime. No religion condones stealing, especially when survival is not an issue.
To rephrase it: If somebody else swiped the Metrocard and opened the service gate, would it then be a sin to ride?
Is it wrong to shut down a transit line under construction without finishing the construction? (COUGHSECONDAVENUECOUGH)
I would think a transit line under construction could not shut down because it wouldn't be open yet to be shut down because it hasn't finished the construction to be open in the first place.
You knew it was coming!
Also, I need to come up with better message bodies to match the slightly funny but usually lame subjects I come up with.
>>> You knew it was coming! <<<
Yeah, the end of the month and the assine posts to increase your total.
Tom
Yeah, the end of the month and the assine posts to increase your total.
Well, I try to keep the asinine posts towards the end of the month, instead of keeping the number even through the month as you prefer to do.
At least you're not posting the same thng over and over!
At least you're not posting the same thng over and over and over!
At least you're not posting the same thng over and over and over!
See what I mean? lol!
BTW AP, at the time I'm writing this I have 330 posts this month as opposed to 141 for you.
Quantity is no substitute for quality!
I agree.
Most of the time however I try to say something to add to the thread. I do not like AP say something because I am trying to add up my number of posts.
I’m not sure. AP has a wierd sense of humor, but sometimes he really hits the nail on the head. This wasn’t one of them, but his original “Fill in the East River” thread was very amusing.
I think that the end of the month postings probably have something to do with the lunar cycle. Maybe there are werepigs as well as werewolves!
I really didn't realize it was the end of the month when I started posting last night. I just came up with these wierd things that I laughed at and decided to post. I think I had another such streak earlier in the month.
As for the East River, I had the tear down the East River post, and then another East River post, so it became like a theme. I think that by now it has become lame and I will submit it for retooling.
If you haven't noticed, I haven't done those Subtalk reports in a while. Largely because I would be accused of inflating my post count.
Last December, I made the top 10 at the last minute when I realized I was #2 of all time and #3 was closing in fast, I really didn't care about the monthly counts. Around January, I gave up on it because who cares if I'm #3? I have better things to do than post constantly about Joe Bruno.
I thought you wanted to fill in the East River.
I will be in the process moving from Chicago to New York in 6 weeks, and I am cleaning out all my papers. I have several Metra and SEPTA timetables from the mid 1980's to clear out. I also have an old NJT rail map and Morris and Essex timetable available. If any subtalkers collect these items, I will be happy to mail them, instead of throwing it away.
Do you have any Metra Electric line schedules from when the line was operated by the Illinios Central pre-1987??
If you do I would be honored to take it versus you throwing it away.
BJ
I had one from 09/07/86, but unfortunately, another subtalker yesterday e-mailed me a request for these items, and I will be mailing this.
Sorry.
Bob D. has told me that the DOT has, in effect, forced him to liquidate his trolley efforts in Red Hook. The trolley track will be pulled up and the trolleys will be sold off to other locations.
I lament the death of the dream to bring trolleys back to Brooklyn.
www.forgotten-ny.com
This action is UNCONSCIONABLE!
Since Saddam Hussein will be gone soon, NYCDOT should replace Iraq as the third member of the Axis or Evil, joining Iran and one of the Koreas.
No, they should have Saddam drive a Gillig, with Steve Hoskins or Trevor Logan making sure he injures himself, and then save a Redbird for his casket, and then the MTA does its thing with those cars!
Well regardless of how we dispose of it (Mr. Hussein), this action by the NYCDOT justifies its entry into the AXIS OF EVIL:
Iran, NYCDOT and one of the Koreas.
That would be North Korea.
"This action is UNCONSCIONABLE!
Since Saddam Hussein will be gone soon, NYCDOT should replace Iraq as the third member of the Axis or Evil, joining Iran and one of the Koreas."
Here's an idea - switch to decaf. Any idea how ridiculous you sound?
Two of my neighbors have sons in the 101st. Both boys are in Iraq. I'm sure they'd rather be pissing and moaning about trolleys. How about keeping things in perspective?
That REALLY chews. Then again, this is NEW YORK where our politicos trash EVERYTHING of possible value. :(
Rant Alert
GULDON BUNCH A BLANKETY BLANK BLANK BLANKING BLANK BLANKS!!!!!! Brooklyn gets screwed yet again. How could they DO this to Mr. Diamond and Brooklyn????!!!!!
Rant Off.
Easy ... Brooklyn ain't Rensselaer county. :(
This is horrible. It's seems certain people never understand the simple pleasures of life. I would have loved to ride this trolley. :(
I hate politics!
I hate to admit it, but I always felt Bob's dream would never turn a wheel. Not so much the DOT knifing in the back, but the tremendous amount of money to build the line, house and maintain the equipment etc. I guess that tugboat ramming the dock was a bad omen for what was to come.
I knew something was fishy when I visited the area this past weekend and found Van Brunt St. freshly repaved. I feel sorry for Bob having a dream and spending mucho bucks to acquire and ship the PCC's as well as starting to build the beginnings of the line. Now we know how the people in Philly felt when their city squashed their waterfront trolley line. And that line was running and popular too, At least those cars found a new home at Electric City.
If this is perhaps the death knell of a streetcar revival in Brooklyn, let's hope the PCC's find homes and are restored and running. Sorry Bob, I give you much credit for doing something positive for Brooklyn, but unfortunately, politics has always ruled in this town.
Bill "Newkirk"
"... I knew something was fishy when I visited the area this past weekend and found Van Brunt St. freshly repaved ..."
Did the City pave right over Bob's newly laid tracks ?
"Did the City pave right over Bob's newly laid tracks ?"
No, Van Brunt St. is the main drag with no traffic lights for many blocks. Perfect for a streetcar line. Only the two blocks from Beard St. to the end were repaved. Bob's tracks didn't reach that far.
That seems strange, why repave a street when part will be excavated for streetcsar tracks ? Or maybe they repaved the street knowing Bob's streetcar line would be dead in the water.
Bill "Newkirk"
What exactly did the DOT do, that killed off the trolley plans?
"What exactly did the DOT do, that killed off the trolley plans?"
I don't know. Kevin Walsh posted that the NYCDOT forced him to liquidate Bob's trolleys and tear up what ever street trackage he installed. Exactly why, only Bob Diamond knows.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is realy too bad that the City wasn't more willing to work WITH Bob on this vs. AGAINST him :-(
He had some problems of his own making, but last year he came very close to at least getting a loop (around a block) up & running. With a little more help and some good vs. bad luck it would have happened.
That area of Brooklyn could use some "renewal". Light rail/trolleys has done that for a number of cities, e.g. HBLR.
Looks like it's time to write to our relected officials. As I'm not politically active, any idea whom to write?
Arti
Why did the NYCDOT pull the plug on the project so late in the game? If you want to (politely) write anyone, start with the NYCDOT at the following link - -
http://www.nyc.gov/html/mail/html/maildot.html
In plain English, that sucks. Haven't the elected officials laced their pockets with enough illicit monies? Do they have to suck the air out of every worthwhile project? Politicians are the worst.
Bob
What is the most important problem here (meaning, someone at DOT really doesn't want the trolley. Who would that be and why?)
That would be Senator Chuck's wife & Mayor Mike.
Seems like Mayor Mike is very anti mass transit/RxR, e.g. the "private" bus companies, New York Cross Harbor RxR, and Bob's Brookly Trolleys.
And he's called Metrocard Mike.
I think Giuliani was far more anti-mass transit, with his anti-pedestrian restrictions to benefit cars. Bloomberg bans turns on some streets to benefit cars: No loss to pedestrians.
As for his being against the private bus companies, I take that as a very pro-mass transit stance.
Bloomberg bans turns on some streets to benefit cars: No loss to pedestrians.
Banning turns benefits pedestrians more than cars; it eliminates vehicle-pedestrian conflicts.
I can almost guarantee you that it has nothing to DO with the trolley. New York politicians are like those in the old south - PERSONAL vendettas because they don't like an individual. I'm embroiled in an imbroglio with several state agencies over my comments here about Paturkey and Bruno (and was told QUITE directly that BECAUSE I said things about politicians, they're willing to bring the full might of the government to bear in retribution) ... I'll provide details at a later time once the lawyers are done doing their thing, but can't say any more now.
But the wrecking of the trolley might be simply because Bob Diamond has cheesed off some petty politico. Burrocrats only do what they're TOLD from on high. The question therefore becomes which POLITICIAN had it in for the trolley because of who was involved in it. Doesn't get any more complex than that. Remember Hylan? :(
I feel bad for Bob and everyone else who helped out on this project. It would have really been nice to have had those trolleys running from downtown Brooklyn to Red Hook, bringing some revitalization to Red Hook. But thanks to the DOT devils, that's not gonna happen.
I hate New York politics. Hate it.
"Red Hook, bringing some revitalization "
Red hook is already being revitaized. There is a thrivign artist community. If it were not for the croket city concilman(now on trial for brobery) there would be a nice western Beaf and other stores along the waterfront.
The PCC line definitly would have opened up red hook to the rest of the city. I was looking foward to it opening and making a day trip out there
Uh, there is a connection from Red Hook to Downtown Bklyn. It's called the B61.
Uh, yeah, I know.
How can you compare some shitty bus with a light rail operation?
"How can you compare some shitty bus with a light rail operation?"
You're right. You can't. Look how long the B5 bus takes to get to Bay Ridge from Atlantic/Flatbush versus the R train. No contest. Rails will always be more efficient than buses.
Have Brooklyn bus routes been renumbered (again)?
B-5 used to be the Kings Highway bus, but that number isn't used any more, is it?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
"B-5 used to be the Kings Highway bus, but that number isn't used any more, is it?"
No, my error. I got the avenue the bus runs on confused with the actual route number. Duhhh. I should have said the B63. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I used to live on 84th Street near 5th and had a friend up in Brooklyn Heights, so I would take the bus back home
The B-5 (between Kings Highway / Ryder Street and Cropsey Avenue / Canal Avenue) and the B-50 (Kings Highway / Coney Island Avenue and Seaview Avenue / Pennsylvania Ave in Starrett City) were combined a few years ago to the B-82 (Cropsey / Canal and Starrett City / Pennsylvania Avenue).
--Mark
There's a number for a route that's been recycled in Brooklyn trice.
Was BQ&T number for Bushwick Avenue Line,[abandoned 1947/48] then after spliting in two from 69 Vanberbilt\McDonald assigned to McDonald Avenue half till end of service in 1956
by B of T, then by the TA to a Flatlands Ave. line originating on Kings Highway.
Other recycled route numbers from Post WWII, that are recycled:
B-43 Graham\Tompkins Avenue was the Holy Cross Cemetery Shuttle
from Nostrand Avenue.
B-47 was Tompkins Avenue, Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza to Prospect Park.
8-) ~ Sparky
Ahh, nostalgia .. time to go through my article collection and look up these articles once more :)
--Mark
8-) ~ Sparky
15: Originally Manhattan Bridge route, eliminated early 1980s. Current incarnation is replacement for B10 when it was extended to JFK Airport in 1993 to prevent confusion with Q10.
B-53 Metropolitan Avenue - now Q-54, not to confuse with Rockaway
Express from Woodside.
B-59 Grand Street [Brooklyn] changed to Q-59 Grand Avenue [Queens]. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The M32 became the Q32. The M32 had previously been the M15. There was also an M16 that became the Q89 in 1974. This has since been eliminated.
As for the 15 to M-32, then Q32. when there were individual bus
companies serving Manhattan [Surface Transportation, Fifth Avenue
Coach, New York Omnibus, Avenue 'B' & East Broadway, New York City Transit Authority] duplicate route numbers were used by the individual companies.
Surface, Fifth & New York Omnibus all merge under Fifth Avenue and
then IIRC during a strike were taken over by the City of New York
and became Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
[MABSTOA]. Avenue 'B', the final Manhattan Private Operator was
brought under the NYCTA flag.
The 16 that became the Q-89, now abandoned, was a strictly Queens line operated by Fifth Avenue Coach.
Also Fifth Avenue, New York Omnibus & Surface Transportation did not
the M designation preceding their route numbers. Only BOT [TA] &
Avenue 'B' used the M indicator.
Now each borough has it's designator preceeding the route number.
B = Brooklyn, BX = Bronx, Q = Queens, M = Manhattan, S = Staten
Island [was R = Richmond].
There is also X for NYCTA Express Buses & combinations used by
the franchised private operators of two borough designations
for express service or inter borough service. QM, QBX, BM, BXM etc...
8-) ~ Sparky
So why not BQ24 or BQ59?
At one time, there was a method of assigning route numbers by
2 Surface Operators in Queens. Steinway Lines started with
Q-100 etc. and Jamaica Bus with Q-110 etc.
Also with the Letter preceeding, most are only 2 numbers except
above in Queens. NJT, state wide service, with many 3 digits
up to the nine hundreds.
Some locations, like the Manhattan Crosstown Lines, they were logistical,
the others too much time for "Joe College" sitting
on his duff at 370 or would it be 130 Livingston?
Why single letters for locals. Bring back the GG, QB, QT, CC, etc.
8-) Sparky
The main difference between local and express routes is the DOUBLE FARE. They also all have a non-stop section, boarding only before the non-stop section, and then discharge only afterwards. They all run from outlying areas to the CBD, except for two routes, the X25 from Grand Central to the World Financial Center and the X26 from Penn Station to the WFC.
Four express routes are single borough only: The aforementioned X25 and X26, and also the X90 and X92 from points along York Avenue to points along Water Street. The X90 also continues to the WFC while the X92 ends at South Ferry.
You're right. You can't. Look how long the B5 bus takes to get to Bay Ridge from Atlantic/Flatbush versus the R train. No contest. Rails will always be more efficient than buses.
You have to mean either the B63 or the B37, and none of them has the number 5 on them. Unless you mistakenly believe that the 5th Avenue bus should be the B5 (it is the B63).
"You have to mean either the B63 or the B37, and none of them has the number 5 on them. Unless you mistakenly believe that the 5th Avenue bus should be the B5 (it is the B63)."
Yes Sir. Already noticed my error, posted a correction, and admonished myself for the mistake. Silly me, of course I meant the B63. Took it enough times to remember what route is was!
8-) ~ Sparky
>>>"No contest. Rails will always be more efficient than buses."<<<
I'll disagree with that statement if you are refering to Surface
Transit. LRV a\o Streetcars unless operated on a dedicated trackage
is not more efficient than buses. As much of a "Streetcar" fanatic
I am, buses can diverge around obstructions in their path, where a
Streetcar\LRV cannot.
Or as seasoned member at Branford says, "basic defensive driving,
what can you not do with Streetcar, you can do with a Bus?" >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Agreed, as far as the "dedicated ROW" qualifier. And I was referring to a subway versus bus anyway, not specifically a streetcar. As a personal choice, I'd still take the streetcar if the headways and destination were roughly equivalent to a parallelling bus line.
I think you did a good job comparing the two right there: a bus is shitty compared to a streetcar line.
For example, abandoning the 77 Spadina bus and replacing it with a streetcar line is one of the best things the TTC has done in recent years. Also, the 'new' Harbourfront (509, not 604) streetcar is much better than the crappy Front Esplanade bus it replaced.
-Robert King
How and why did the DOT do this? It's a shame.
-Robert King
This is the second time NYCDOT has "pulled the plug". BobD does have local Brooklyn pols in his corner, including two NYC councilpersons.
There is a Windows Media movie on his site, which features interviews with one of the Brooklyn councilpersons and she pledges support for this worthy project.
Write to Mayor Bloomberg, The Brooklyn Mayor/Boro President, and The Community Boards that the project will operate in.
Maybe Brooklyn Should Seccede from the Union of New York City and Become A Seperate City Again.
Steve P.
Euclid Avenue A Train
Formally Of City Line, Brooklyn
Maybe Brooklyn Should Seccede from the Union of New York City and Become A Seperate City Again.
YES!
Also, the Rockaways should secede from NYC too, they've been screwed by Greater New York the most.
OK, let's all start a campaign to lay tracks for a shuttle from the NEW Stillwell Ave Station to Keyspan Park during Cyclone games. Bob Diamond has the PCC's for it and I'm sure Branford could loan a BRT car such as 4573 the same way they loaned the G car to the Transit Museum. Is it as far fetched as SIRT building a whole Station at the S.I. Yankees Park? After all, we all know how that other Brooklyn Team, the one that moved to L.A. got its name!!
It's true, and the whole situation looks very grim.
I received 3 e-mails from BobD, and from the tone, it looks like BRHA will be dissolved and all the equipment disposed of, unless some miracle happens.
E-mails have been flying between Bob, lawyers for both sides, other concerned folks.
Having been through a "Perils of Pauline" with a streetcar project with what went on with the Baltimore Historic Collection before the formation of BSM Baltimore Streetcar Museum in the 1950's and early 60's, I sort of know what Bob's going through. At least 3 times it looked as black as BHRA's current situation looks, but somebody, somewhere was looking out for the cars, as the happily ever after story has us running for 33 years.
Hopefully, this too will pass and BobD's dream will come true after all.
What exactly is the DOT doing?
Here's praying ... I was hoping to come to the city sometime over the summer and RIDE Bob's PCC's ... now, looks like (assuing there's an ECONOMY) I'll either ride them in Toronto or Baltimore. SCREW NYC.
If you want to ride streetcars, your choices are pretty much limited to Toronto or Philadelphia and maybe Boston, if you want to stretch things a bit, but Baltimore abandoned in the 60s.
-Robert King
Are YOU willing to sponsor Bingbong and I as (gack!) "Potential citizens in good standing and free of encumberences?" :)
As Robin Williams said in "Moscow on the Hudson" ...
(shhhhh! "i defect?") RAILCARS instead of those tire-some trolley hack jobs and hosers WOULD be a relief, and reason for greener pastures in THIS geezer's mindset. Heh.
Start packing the car and make sure the tank's full!
-Robert King
Heh. How MANY cartons of smokes, eh? :)
And REMEMBER, Peter Mansbridge died for our sins. Wait a minute, gotta post that TWICE the size en français ... oh, if only "Talking to Americans" was revealed south of the border. Or if Americans REALIZED that boycotting Mayonaisse (Scottish origin, "TarTare" is the FRENCH equivalent) and piling on Mustard ("moutard" of French origin) was a whoopsie. We won't even BOTHER with "Freedom fries" (which originated in St Louis, Missouri - a FRENCH state) Heh. Nah.
Je SUIS un Americain. "donnez-moi la liberté ou donnez-moi les républicains. Tant pis. Alors. Moo." Heh.
OH CANADA ... da-da-da-da-da-da ... :)
Don't forget San Francisco's F line streetcar
I agree, and from what I've seen through pictures, the F line in San Francisco looks like a neat operation, but I was thinking of systems that would be an easy car trip from Selkirk's place; unfortunately, San Francisco's much further away than a solid day of driving each way, to and from upstate New York.
-Robert King
Don't forget Pittsburgh's LRT to the south suburbs and Cleveland's Shaker Heights Rapid Transit LRT.
I don't really consider these to be streetcars, which is why I was hesitant to include Boston. In Boston, they've abandoned so much street running and adopted LRV vehicles that it isn't really a streetcar-lines-radiating-from-a-central-downtown-subway-tunnel system like Philadelphia's anymore. If you wanted to include LRT, Baltimore could be reintroduced to the picture since they have one as well as the lines in New Jersey.
-Robert King
In addition the HBLR & Newark City Subway lines are a lot closer. Both include some street running sections.
The HBLR is exactly what many of us hoped Bob's trolley line would have evolved into.
P.S. If it's PCCs you want add Kenosha, Wisconsin to your must ride list.
Personally, I like Norfolk Southern better than CSX.
-Robert King
As for the museum near Montreal, they're getting tons of federal money thrown at them (my understanding is that it's a cross between being a 'national' railway museum and general federal money flowing into Quebec) and, the last I've heard, they're going on a building spree in terms of construction. What I don't know is whether or not any of the money's allocated for restoring equipment. They only had a few runable streetcars when I was there last, about ten years ago, and one of them was quite was getting some impressive work done on it.
It'll be interesting to see if the CN steam locomotive at the roundhouse in Toronto passes its metal fatigue tests and gets the green light to be restored because that opens up the possibility for steam excursions here.
-Robert King
Glad to hear a museum's getting funded at all, that's becoming more and more rare these days. You don't suppose Quebec managed to pay for it all with those Raleigh coupons from their cigarettes, n'est ce pas? Heh.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
But Bob D's Brooklyn operation was never intended to be a museum. It's goal was urban re-newal, similar to HBLR. But of course HBLR had backing of NJ State.
I still see a lot of POTENTIAL in the Red Hook, Bush Terminal, Brooklyn Heights areas. All three have some tracks in the street near the water front.
NOTICE
Delaware and Hudson Railway Company, Inc., (d/b/a Canadian Pacific
Railway) gives notice that on or about April 15, 2003, it intends to
file with the Surface Transportation Board, Washington, DC 20423, a
Notice of Exemption under 49 U.S.C. 10505 from the prior approval
requirements of 49 U.S.C. 10903, et seq., permitting the abandonment
of a 9.14 +/- mile line of railroad between milepost 1.8 +/- (in
Albany) and milepost 10.94 +/- (in Voorheesville) which traverses
through United States Postal Service Zip Codes 12202, 12077, 12054,
and 12186, in Albany County, New York. The proceeding will be
docketed as No. AB-156 (Sub No. 23X).
The Board's Section of Environmental Analysis (SEA) will generally
prepare an Environmental Assessment (EA), which will normally be
available 60 days after the filing of the Notice of Exemption.
Comments on environmental and energy matters should be filed no later
than 30 days after the EA becomes available to the public and will be
addressed in a Board decision. Interested persons may obtain a copy
of the EA or make inquiries regarding environmental matters by
writing to the SEA, Surface Transportation Board, 1925 K Street NW,
Washington, DC, 20423-0001, or by calling SEA at 202-565-1674.
Appropriate offers of financial assistance to continue rail service
can be filed with the Board. Requests for environmental conditions,
public use conditions, or rail banking/trails use also can be filed
with the Board. An original and 10 copies of any pleading that raises
matters other than environmental issues (such as trails use, public
use, and offers of financial assistance) must be filed directly with
the Board's Office of the Secretary, 1925 K Street NW, Washington, DC
@0423-0001 [See 49 CFR 1104.1(a) and 1104.3(a)], and one copy must be
served on applicants' representative [See 49 CFR 1104.12(a)].
Questions regarding offers of financial assistance, public use or
trails use may be directed to the Board's Office of Public Services
at 202-927-7597. Copies of any comments or requests for conditions
should be served on the applicant's representative, Diane P. Gerth at
Leonard, Street and Deinard, 150 South Fifth Street, Suite 2300,
Minneapolis, MN 55402, 612-335-1500.
Delaware & Hudson Railway
Company, Inc.
(d/b/a Canadian Pacific Railway)
Minneapolis, Minnesota
TU-1t March 28 (8900)
Like Kevin said, this is the City of New York, the Borough of Brooklyn.
A certain poster of this board is involved with the BP's office,
the current person in the position seems O.K., but
his predecessor who was there for a significant number of years,
did sh*t when the Swedish Cars were suggested. Probably did just
as much sh**t or less for Bob Diamond before retiring. I hate
politics, a butt kisser, I'm not. If you're a SOB, I let you
know one-on-one. >GG<
8-) Sparky
There is a single streetcar loop operating; although they own two of the Montréal Golden Chariots, they operate only one of them. There will be some realignment of the operating track with the opening of the new building. I don't know how much more of their equipment is operable.
Last year, they ran a special museum train on weekends from downtown Montréal to St.-Constant so people could avoid the auto traffic. (IMHO, Montréal's traffic or drivers are the second worst in North America, after Boston.) I don't know if there's another museum on the continent where you can arrive by special train at a special station at the museum itself. A nice touch.
The static displays and the storage barns are worth a visit.
For riding, the Halton County Radial Railway outside of Toronto (where I'm a member and do some operating) has much more equipment in operation, but it was designed to be an operating museum in addition to having lots of additional equipment displayed.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
(on the border)
Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Aw, . I was looking forward to riding those PCCs again someday.
I probably rode some of those cars when I was a kid in NE Ohio in the '60s. Whenever my parents and I visited Cleveland, we always parked in Shaker Heights and rode the "Rapid" into town.
I hope the cars find a good home somewhere.
Also two words " This Sucks "
Save the Slants !
Vlad
I was over just on the crosstown (that's the G line for you novices), waiting for a nb train at Flushing Ave, when this work train (the diesel in electric mode, thank G-d, about 2 flats, and a rider car) comes book'n through the station nb like a bat out of h3ll! I've never seen a work train move that fast! He had to be doing 30mph! Is that legal? If it isn't, I guess this SubTalk post will get that T/O fired. But if it is, that was sooo cool. I hope to see it again. It just didn't seem right. But it was cool none the less.
Take Pride,
Brian
Most often you'll encounter MOW diesels 'haulin' ass' through stations. The reasons for this are (1) the MOW T/O's are told to do so as to avoid creating a 'conga line' of service trains behind them and (2) avoiding 'dwell time' at stations that could easily choke customers with the diesel exhaust (have you ever been in a subway station with an idling MOW diesel? It's not pleasant -- even worse if you suffer from respiratory ailments).
'haulin' ass' is ALWAYS good. I just wish it was the revenue trains that were doing the hauling, not just the MOW trains. Yes, I've been in stations with diesels in diesel mode, just see the "work trains" section of my website.
Take Pride,
Brian
That's not why diesels "haul ass" through stations. The ONLY reason is because the crew was looking to get back to the yard ASAP so as to "haul ass" home.
Nonetheless, that crew is taking a chance. One wrong person catches a look and that crew is face to face with Labor Relations. Not smart.
Heh heh. So what is the maximum authorized speed? What if they were really only doing 25mph?
---Brian
It sounds like 15 mph with horn toots upon entering and exiting the station would be in order from the story told, unless authorization were somehow given to go with higher speeds. I've seen and been on trains running express on the local where they were doing far in excess of the 15 mph I understand is the rule, say, as high as 35 mph through the stations- 25 mph or so is more the norm though, like on the Flushing line where this tends to happen alot.
I suppose nobody in their right mind is going to try and board a work train flying through the station, in any case. Except maybe the caped crusader and his sidekick, of course.
Wow, thanks for the info. Do the diesels ride rough at 30+ mph? It seemed to be rocking back and forth, but not too violently.
---Brian
I've NEVER seen a work train move faster than about 15 mph, and maybe that's unusual, but it's from all of the rail memories I can recall since about 1985, when I was 5.
Have I just deprived of fast-moving work trains. I don't know.
There are some work trains that move reasonably well, usually they're one piece transfers.
I have seen as fast as 41 miles per hour on the 7 and 1 lines (at 82 Street and 225 Street; respectively). I thought the rules were different for the A and the B divison.
9605 #7
1962 #1
That seems quite fast for a work train. You should note that the IND Brooklyn Queens Crosstown doesn't have the luxury of one or two extra express tracks so the T/O of the work train might be required to move along at a good clip.
#3 West End Jeff
Work train speed restrictions:
25mph on tangent
15mph on curves
15mph leaving bypassed stations (same as Revenue trains)
Years ago I was told a story about a work train that stopped in some station. There was a seat at the front of the locomotive. Some guy all dressed up with briefcase and fancy suit gets on and sits down and says he is not getting off 'til he gets to his station. He claimed he had been waiting for a half hour and was not getting off 'til he got to where he was going. The crew tried to talk him out of staying there but had no success. Soooooo, the crew left him there and he got off when the train got to his station.
After the Myrtle el was cut back to Bridge St., what type of third rail was used? Elevated third rail to Broadway Jct. and Subway third rail to Metropolitan Ave.? If so, were the el cars equipped with special third rail shoes?
It was elevated third rail for the entire length of the line. In fact, much of the BMT (including, for example, the Brighton Beach Line) used uncovered elevated position third rail well into the '50s or '60s.
In their last years, the Q-types were fitted with subway shoes (don't recall whether this was part of the GOH before going to Myrtle) but at least the lower part of Myrtle retained elevated third rail. The northern portion of the route was probably converted to subway third rail at about the same time (as the Qs received subway shoes).
The Q-types had elevated-type drop shoes through the early 60s. My guess is that they got the subway-type shoes around the same time that they got sealed-beam headlights, in the last few years of their life prior to their 1969 retirement.
BTW - If you want to see elevated-type drop shoes, come to Chicago. The CTA still uses them!
-- Ed Sachs
I love Chicago. Last U.S. city for real old-fashioned railfanning, even if they don't have any trolley poles anyore.
I assumed that the northern end of the route had subway third rail at a much earlier date in order to operate Myrtle-Chambers trains. Or did the steel cars have transition shoes?
All BMT subway cars had transition shoes, otherwise much of the BMT couldn't have had subway service. It was the el cars that couldn't operate where there was subway style (ironically called "BMT Secton") third rail.
The "Q" cars received the subway type current collector around 1964-1965. When they came over from 3rd Ave. they had elevated shoes.
Bob
The elevated portion of the B M T line to Metropolitan Avehad no covered 3rd rail as the light show at night was outstanding when the third rail shoe would encounter ice,what a fourth of July show falling to the old prw.
Does anyone know if the MTA is going to let us use the $63 monthly passes after the fare hike in May. In other words, if I buy a $63 pass on April 30, will I need to exchange it after the May 4 fare increase or can I keep using it until it expires? Thanks!
I think the $63 monthly passes will still be good after May 4th. TA is saying they won't be good. But I think that is just to discourage people from stocking up on cards for afterwards.
DouceMan,
Given the chance (and you didn't work for the TA)- would you take the chance and buy a stack of $63 cards?
I doubt you would.
(Given the chance (and you didn't work for the TA)- would you take the chance and buy a stack of $63 cards? )
If I could use them (which I can't), I'd be sorely tempted. What's the worst that can happen? I have to redeem them at Jay St. and get my money back. What's the best that can happen? I earn $84 tax free on an investment of $756 for an average period of 7 months.
Of course, the more people decide to do hoard the older cards, the more likely the MTA is to invalidate them. So if everybody thinks like me, it probably won't work.
If I bought them now and TA doesn't use them later, do you think I'm gpong to be out the money?
I doubt it!
Same thing happened the last few times the fare went up,
TA stayed with the token.
And one one time when they did there was a chance to trade them in for the new token.
So either I will have metrocards I bought at the old price that still work.
Or I will get my money back.
Would The TA Exchange Metrocards and the user pay the Difference for the price increase at the time of the Fare change?
Clerks probably won't find out about what to do until late April. Probably have to mail them in ASAP for a refund.
(Probably have to mail them in ASAP for a refund.)
It can't possibly be ASAP. I have a fun pass that says it expires May 31, 2004. Maybe they won't honor it after May 3, 2003, but they certainly have to give me till May 2004 to get my refund.
Source: Previously posted Newsday article.
Transit officials also announced grace periods to allow riders to use different types of MetroCards after the fare hike takes effect May 4:
Fun Pass: Cards purchased prior to May 4 will work on May 4 and May 5.
Seven-day Pass: Cards will work until midnight on May 13.
30-day Pass (including Express Bus Plus): Cards will work until midnight on June 12.
In addition, NYC Transit will redeem Unlimited Ride MetroCards purchased prior to May 4 if there is time remaining on the card. Riders can see a token booth agent or call 1-800-METROCARD for details.
from what i was told-the $63 dollar monthly will be good up to one month passed the may 4th date-the latest date will be 6/12/03. Im buying my next card 4/23/03.
Since the Manny bridge pattern is such a hot thread for 2004,What about if NYC gets the Olympics for 2012?With not even ten years left for construction what can be built ,extended ?Would they be able to extend the 7 in that amount of time,The Nimby court process can be drawn out.
My thoughts on what should be done for Olympics.
7 line all new equipment,extended to west side stadium with 4 track terminal.
3 line after 145st new tube to terminal at yankee stadium which would connect to the B D and 4.148 would still be used as a yard.
G would be back to ten cars,or 8 75's Basically to handle the extra ridership along LIC thats were Olympic village would be.
E via new Hudson tunnel to Meadowlands,(I know this would never happen but it should)with the size of the freight tunnel their building 2 tracks for the E to turn off into after Canal st shouldnt be a problem.
This ofcourse goes with major headway increases on all trunk lines who go thru Manhattan during the games.Also on the Midnights Headways decreased to 10 minutes instead of 20.
What are you guys Ideas and thoughts of what can happen or be built?
Is there going to be an Olympics here in 2012?
Wont know until 2005 when the international olympic commity makes it's decision.
Getting the olympics will be the best thing to happpened to NYC in 30 years. It will allow for developement and enhancements that could not be pushed through otherwise and create thousands of construction jobs. The large majority of the cost will be pushed on the private sector.
When Atlanta got the Games, a ton of s**t was built here, including Olympic Stadium (now Turner Field), new dorms at Georgia Tech, and many other projects including urban renewal.
Don't forget the North Line branch. Although that line was going to be built anyway, they sped up constuction so it would be open by the Olympics.
I'm afraid national and international attitudes might stand in the way of the Olympic Dream.
First, federal money was directed to infrastructure in Atlanta and Salt Lake before the games. That won't happen for New York, because the rest of the country hates us. As I understand it, the city's Olympic bid assumes no federal help at all, and without it, I'm not sure we can afford it. Read the fine print on that "all private" stuff -- NY 2012 counts the Olympic Stadium, the biggest expense, as an "existing facility," and the city is responsible for all over-runs.
Second, the IOC decides where the Olympics will be. While the U.S. doesn't think of New York as part of the U.S., the rest of the world does, and the U.S. isn't popular there. That can change by 2012, but the decision is in 2005.
Also, the IOC isn't too keen on the fact that the U.S. has gotten four Games since 1980 (Lake Placid, Los Angeles, Atlanta, and Salt Lake). Plus if Vancouver receives the 2010 Winter Games, they most likely will not vote for New York in 2012.
It depends on if Athens turns into the debacle of unfinished projects it seems headed towards. They would probably then prefer a more reliable city/country. Trouble is, NYC is just as notorious for politically-supercharged, graft-ridden, half-built, never finished projects.
The reason NYC is the front runner is that the IOC will be able to secure the advertising and ticket prices needed to support the games
The average New Yorker won't be attending the games bit it will get the bennifits during and for years after the the olympics are over
Besides jump starting projects such as Queens west and west side redevelopment. The Olympics will bring back the foreign tourists from asia and europe that bring in hundereds of millions of dollars a year in refenue to the city. It is the jobs that these tourists bring that employ many people starting out on the american dream
Also, the IOC isn't too keen on the fact that the U.S. has gotten four Games since 1980
If they have a problem with this, then why did they give the United States the games 4 times in the last 23 years?
I say Europe has had more than its fair share of games and the 2012 Olympics has to be held in any of the world's other 5 inhabited continents.
Neither South America nor Africa has ever hosted the Olympics.
Neither South America nor Africa has ever hosted the Olympics.
Africa one has to be wary of - the Cricket World Cup was rather messd up by the decision to host some games in Zimbabwe and Kenya and English and Australian players scheduled to play there received death threats - the matches were cancelled and the bastards awarded them to Zimbabwe and Kenya. Having said that, if it could be kept in a more-or-less stable country in Africa (e.g. Egypt, Tunisia, the Gambia, Mozambique, South Africa) it would be a kinda cool idea. However, South America would be one hell of a party!
I say Europe has had more than its fair share of games
Of the last ten summer games, four have been in North America (Atlanta, Los Angeles, Montreal and Mexico City), three have been in Europe (Barcelona, Moscow and Munich), two in Asia (Seoul and Tokyo) and one in Australasia (Sydney).
After Athens the score will be North America 4, Europe 4, Asia 1 (Tokyo drops off the list), Australasia 1.
North Line??? What the heck is that?
Nevermind...
Don't forget the North Line branch. Although that line was going to be built anyway, they sped up constuction so it would be open by the Olympics.
Why did they do that?.
The North Line doesn't go anywhere near any of the obvious Olympic venues I remember from watching the games on TV (Olympic Stadium, Olympic Park, Stone Mountain, Georgia Dome, etc.). Were there venues in the Dunwoody/Perimeter area?.
I don't think there should be any changes. If people want to see the Olympics, take a train and a bus.
Yeah, we'd have just to deal with the mass delays and inconviences.
If construction starts next year, the second avenue subway can open in time for this event. -Nick
You're a funny guy. Funding of the war in IRAQ would be cheaper than what you're talking about.
But I'm all for the Olympics coming to NYC. Many of the improvements that will be made to New York's infrastructure could benefit NYer's long after the the Games are gone.
That's right everyone,today's my birthday!!WOOHOO!! I turn 20 today.I wish I was riding the trains or buses today but thanks to the Employment Center I'm left to stay here all week long untill they call me.Really sucks,sucks bad.
Happy Birthday, may you reach your 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 50th, 59th, 66th, 72nd, 79th, maybe 86th and 96th birthdays.
Might as well go for 103rd also.....
You forgot 76th in there... although probably none of us will ever get there. :-P
Happy birthday!!!
Why are you not in college or training for a trade???
At 20 you have you whole life ahead of you. It is best to have a good foundation under yourself
Put another candle on V's birthday cake
and when we do a wish she'll make
put another candle on her birthday cake
she's another year old today.
We'll have some pie and sandwiches
and chocolate ice cream too
we'll sing and play the day away
and just one thing we have to do
put another candle on her birthday cake
and when I do a wish she'll make
put another candle on her birthday cake
she's another year old today
she's another year old today
Hooooorrrrrraaaaayyyyyyyyyyy.
Did you write that?
Not bad!
Just change all of the feminine pronouns to masculine and you got it down.
Yeah,he obviously forgot that I admitted I was a guy last month
Ok, I loused up. But don't tell me you didn't like my little limerick for your 20th.
hmmmmmm........I admit it wasn't that bad.That's about all I can think of to say about it at the moment.
Freddy must be happy 'cause he read that proposed draft at NYCRail. I think he'll have V Train's belated party on the first N on 'da Manny-B. :)
Happy B day V!. Welcome to the 20th club!
Happy Birthday! My birthday is coming up this Monday, March 31st, and I will be 27 years old. Just wish I was married by now!
Congrats.
Happy Birthday. And many more.
May your subway rides bring you smiles!
May all your signals be green through the coming year. Best of health and good fortune to you. CC
LCOR, Inc. has announced this month that JFK Corporate Center, a 300,000 square foot office building, is being developed near Jamaica Station. It is being placed there specifically to take advantage of AirTrain; the LIRR and subway connections are an additional plus.
If The PA ever gets there act together and extends airtrain to LGA. The area around shea stadium is ripe for developements of hotels and a new convention center.
Development sites could include a platform over the corona yard and bus depot.
The Northeast Transportation Improvement Study commission has released its final draft report on the matter of a subway to Northeast Philadelphia along the Roosevelt Boulevaed corridor. You can read it at this website:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
In addition to the draft, there is a nifty map of where the new line would run, with stations.
And as a disclaimer, I know full well not to hold my breath. This wouldn't be the first such project to go nowhere...
Mark
Thanks for posting that.
I like the plan. Unlike SVM, this stands a better chance of passing muster.
But politics around Philly are very tough. Still, the fact that a would-be state representative,anti-transit, with a thinly veiled racist platform (using section 8 housing as a proxy) was defeated in the last election means the situation is not hopeless...
That's good news. Too bad Robert Borski is no longer representing that neighbohood in Congress. He was very pro-transit.
Mark
He couldn't. Reapportionment and gerrymandering took their toll.
I remember that. Gerrymandering eliminated Borski's district, and took a transit advocate who held a key transportation post (don't remember which one) out of Congress.
Mark
A nice concept, but is SEPTA's suburb-dominant board likely to allow a project that would benefit city residents?
Maybe it would have a better chance of being built if NE Philly seceded and became an independent municipality. : )
Mark
"Suburb-dominant" my ass. If they were so dominant in the suburbs, would there not be a restored R8 line to Newtown?
Or do you mean the majority of the Board resides in the suburbs? If THAT'S the case, I see your logic clearly. Still, they must be mostly from the Main Line, Chester County, and Delaware County, otherwise the R8 line to Newtown would have been restored by now. And I'm reluctant to say Delco is represented, as it's taking forever to get the R3 going to Wawa (and POSSIBLY West Chester) again.
As far as this goes, it's SVM vs. Roosevelt Blvd. Suburbs vs. City. You see how dead in the water the SVM thing is now... If suburban dominance does exist here, it's not worth much. However, with Ed Rendell in Harrisburg now, order may be restored. I personally would hope the Blvd. Line comes into play first, it'd be overall more useful than anything going to Reading, and it wouldn't jeapordize anything else (knowing SEPTA, with the Blvd line around, they'd STILL leave the R, 1, 14, and 20 bus routes where they are now, especially if, after all these years, Routes C, 21, and 31 still exist)
What is the minimum number of pickup shoes that are able to touch the rail and still are able to power the train?
One
How many cars, though?
I doubt that one shoe can gather enough power to urge on a 12-car LIRR set
of course not
How many cars, though?
One.
There are no high voltage linkages between cars.
I suspect that one car *could* pull a whole train all by itself, assuming that the PAX got out and walked! One little switcher *can* pull a whole 112 car coal train, though it would never be able to manage it on the road. The additional motors provide the speed, acceleration, and power for climbing and braking that one car cannot provide alone. So the question is: do you want to move the train or run the train? I suspect that a subway train will run without noticable (to the geese) difference if say half of its motors were dead.
This will stand as TRVTH until some says otherwise!
Elias
There was an interesting incident on the West London Line recently where a train had only one third rail shoe working. The driver stopped at a station (IIRC it was West Brompton) and unfortunately the working shoe was over a gap in the third rail. Oops! They had to wait for the next train to arrive to push him out.
Since 3rd rail power is not carried car to car on NYCT cars each car would ideally need one hot shoe for the train to be adequately powered. We can move a train out of a maintenance shop with one or two live shoes, However, in service, under such conditions, we'd have low air and low battery conditions under such conditions.
"Since 3rd rail power is not carried car to car on NYCT cars each car would ideally need one hot shoe for the train to be adequately powered. We can move a train out of a maintenance shop with one or two live shoes, However, in service, under such conditions, we'd have low air and low battery conditions under such conditions."
I would think it would be 2, 1 on each side of each car. As the third rail is not allways on the same side of a train.
Not necessary. On any NYCT car, if one shoe is hot, all four are hot.
"Not necessary. On any NYCT car, if one shoe is hot, all four are hot."
Yes but if only one shoe is present on one side of a car and the train moves on to track where the third rail is on the side of the car where there are no shoes are present traction power is no longer available.
John
Does anyone know if LIRR or MNCR EMU carry 600v car to car (probably not) or only within a 2 to 4 car set (possible)?
How old are sections of third rail on the LIRR?
The first LIRR electrification was in 1905. I doubt that they have the same third rail in those segments.
Which would be more cost-effective when digging a tunnel for a 4-track underground line?
A 4-track line (similar to most trunk lines in the subway)
Or a 2-over-2 type similar to the Lex Line
Depends on the Width of the street, and how deep you want to go below street level. 2 Over 2 would work best In Manhattan, 3 Tracks are possible in some areas, but for 4 track tunnels/Stations wide streets are required for cut and cover or deep digs using a TBM.
I'm guessing, taking the TOTAL cost of the system, you want to stick to the shallow cut-and-cover 4-wide. Stacking means you can't put the tracks directly on compacted grade. The whole upper level is built as a trestle over the lower level, carrying the weight of those trains, and resisting that vibration. I'm guessing that just making a wider tunnel and piling dirt for a wider ground cover above is cheaper. This is, of course, not taking real estate or surrounding buildings into account, which is why the Lex and 53rd situations happened. But the fact that they happened only there also leads me to believe I might be right.
At this very moment, a drilling rig is setting up to take a core sample on 2nd Ave at 11th St.
Of course, it might not have anything to do with detailed engineering studies for the SAS, but we can hope.
At this very moment, a drilling rig is setting up to take a core sample on 2nd Ave at 11th St.
Of course, it might not have anything to do with detailed engineering studies for the SAS, but we can hope.
Rigs like that appear from time to time on Hudson Street near West Houston. Most assuredly, there is no subway planned in that area, so we can presume that the rigs are there for other purposes.
Or maybe the fraud is really serious. Remember, after a couple of decades people began to get learn of being bought off by mere plans. So the pols bought us off with a $300 million design which is fully funded, and handed out the $10 billion required for construction to their pals during the boom. Then they'll tell us there is no money.
We can hope...
Here's hoping they strike oil. New York City's financial fortunes would turn around faster than you can say Halliburton. :)
They were around 28th Street few months ago.
Arti
Noticed a host of R32 sets on the R yesterday. Is this part of a new trend, or was it just a fluke? Whom do I blame for this travesty? They belong on the E!
Get used to it. R line will be completely R32 by next month. Wonder where will all those R46's will be assigned to.
Why?
I was wondering about that myself, but according to the old car assignment sheet. Say, The N previously carries about 40% R32 Fleets. If N is longer uses R32 begining Mar 7 and that entire 40% R32 fleets is sent to R. Then where is the remaining 60% of R32 come from. Perhaps it was shared from the E, cause the entire E is way to much R32. And where is remaining R46 goes to? I doubt certainly not V G F. Wait a min, am'I thinking some of it going back to the E?
I'm assuming the newly arrived R32's from Coney Island at Jamaica would be used on the E, F & R. This doesn't explain why the entire R line is going to be all R32, if what is being said is true. I don't even think it's possible, given the need for R46's to run on the late night OPTO R shuttle.
It's also time to end the rules banning the R32 on the V. The line is established and the concept behind making it 100% R46 is now obsolete.
What was the concept of making the V 100% R46?
Attracting ridership. People like the R46 more.
Attracting ridership. People like the R46 more.
I certainly don't. You can't walk through them, the seats are restricting, and there's no railfan window. The only benefit of R46's is the arm rests, and only about 6-8 of the seats in a car have them. Yet another reason for New Yorkers to be stressed-not getting the seat by the arm rest.
"I certainly don't. You can't walk through them, the seats are restricting, and there's no railfan window."
Railbuff stuff, not relevant to 99.99% of passengers. Subtalk can be quite distorted compared to what the average subway patron thinks about.
"The only benefit of R46's is the arm rests, and only about 6-8 of the seats in a car have them."
Wrong. The R46 is better lit (important for the visually impaired), quieter and generally smoother-riding than older cars. They have door chimes, which helps people not get stuck in the doors, esp. if they are visually impaired.
They also look newer due to the stainless steel construction, so they are a bigger draw.
You can't walk through them [the R-46's], the seats are restricting, and there's no railfan window.
Railbuff stuff, not relevant to 99.99% of passengers. Subtalk can be quite distorted compared to what the average subway patron thinks about.
Railfan windows may be irrelevant to most riders, but that's certainly not true with respect to seat comfort. I would imagine that some "ordinary" riders also appreciate the ability to walk between cars.
Perhaps to blunt the notion of making the "V" more useful by sending it out to Eastern Division via Chrystie/Essex.
wayne
I was thinking that maybe the extra leftovers R46 and R32 will be saved for the Q. Since it will run to QB in 2004. I doubt that the F will be 50% R32 instead of 30% (currently) and 50% R46. And Maybe G will get some. As for E?, All I can is already have enough R32 on its sleeves. Unless maybe it get some R46 to make everything equal with no R46 and R32 leftovers.
"And Maybe G will get some R32.
I doubt that. G line is mainly OPTO, so they need R46 for the G. I would like to see an R68 running on the G or R line for a change. I remember riding an R68 F train in the late 80's from East Broadway, but never saw another after that. The best part is that I had the railfan window(small cab) all to myself to Coney Island. It was at Neptune/Van Sicklen where I saw an R68 F train going in the opposite direction.
As for the R32, I would rather see them on the D line or J and L lines.
I would also like to see some R32 on the L J M Z as well. Since Eastern Division can't uses 75 ft fleet. So R32 would be perfect for Eastern Division.
I was thinking that maybe the extra leftovers R46 and R32 will be saved for the Q. Since it will run to QB in 2004
That is simply not true. The plan has not been formulated, and that option (Q via 63rd to Queens Blvd.) will NOT be part of any such plan.
Anyway if the Q was going to Queens, yes it would probably have R32, but mostly R68's like it did during the post 9/11 reroutes giving the Q both CI, and Jamaica fleets.
Who told you that? I've heard this was supposed to happen so many times over the years and it's never happened. I've stated before that there is a temporary shortage of R46 cars currently available for service due to them being cycled through CIYD Main Shop for SMS work.
I can't believe that someone would actually give up a chance for a RFW.
And you call yourself a railfan Chris?
In a minute i would. While I occasionaly like to stand up front, I do 99% of my railfanning with my butt firmly parked in a seat.
Yes...many good pictures come from sitting next to the window; besides, you can concentrate on taking the picture rather than the fact that your feet hurt from standing at the front (or back) window.
Besides, standing at the railfan window for a long period of time can be painful.
Maybe to you. I just stand there and/or lean against the cab door. The only problem is when your hand gets cold from the cold air rushing in around the door. But it is a small price to pay for such a wonderful and soon to be rare experience.
---Brian
In light of the fact that we fans are losing the Redbirds and thier railfan windows, standing at length by a railfan window is worth whatever pain I feel....if I get TOO weary, yes, I will grab ANY seat, but, for now, I am grateful as hell for the chance to stand by the railfan window for a motorman's view..........for now.....
{shrug}
I outgrew the railfan window years ago. Haven't looked out one since the '90's.
Well, excuse me..you OURGREW The railfan window?? Obviously you sound like someone who is too macho to admit he likes the railfan window. Perhaps HOOTERS is more in sync with your "mature" tastes.If you think you have "outgrown" the railfan window, all I can say is, while you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, it is a little "sarcastic" to state you outgrew the railfan window...Why? Is looking out of the railfan window a sign of latent immaturity? Give me a break, here.
Not sarcastic. I liked it as a child. I don't now. Outgrew seemed like a perfectly appropriate word.
Whatever...you are certainly entiltled to your opinion, just the same as anyone else. I may not agree with other's opinions, but I certainly respect thier right to say what they wish.
Just curious -- what (if anything) do you like watching while railfanning? I like watching the tracks, the switches, the signals, and the view from the side is pretty poor.
I like the side windows, facing inward. I see tracks, stations, and everything else you see out the front, only at a different angle.
I'm probably an odd railfanner. I prefer 75' cars and the longest routes that operate them (A, R, F, W, B/D prior to 7/22/01). I like parking my butt in a foward facing seat, then riding these routes end to end, with my Discman blaring some serious heavy metal music.
That's my version of paradise.
Well, no, you don't see the layout of the tracks ahead of the train, and by the time you see the signals, they're all red.
Not that I'm complaining, of course. If you're sitting on an R-68, you're leaving the railfan window on an R-38 free for the rest of us. Thank you!
And of course, you can people-watch and make notes on who rides when.
Not sarcastic. I liked it as a child. I don't now. Outgrew seemed like a perfectly appropriate word.
I will never outgrow the window.
If it was all R-46 you'd be complaining "NO railfan window!"
No i wouldn't. My idea of a "railfan window" is the window seat on the forward facing seats, not one up front. This is why I worship the 75 footers.
"This is why I worship the 75 footers. "
Blessed be the rhinos and hippos. (Maybe I should work for Lion Country Safari...)
:0)
Damn right. I'm gonna cry when the 75' cars get scrapped. Really. Cry. Like my dog just died.
Well I feel the same way about the yellow low pressure sodium streetlights, like those in use in the Town of Oyster Bay. Slowly they are replacing them with the typical pink colored High pressure sodium ones. But Im in the minority, most people dont like the yellow lights.
Low pressure sodium is more energy-efficient, but the illumination can be very weird.
Well I feel the same way about the yellow low pressure sodium streetlights, like those in use in the Town of Oyster Bay.
They *STILL* have those things....
or maybe you are NOT talking of the kind the had along the Granc Central Parkway back in the 1950s. Man! I liked those lights.
Elias
"My idea of a "railfan window" is the window seat on the forward facing seats, not one up front. This is why I worship the 75 footers."
It's amazing you don't get blinded by all those tunnel lights, expecially the newer ones installed on the 60th st tube and Broadway line.
Polarized glasses. Nothing blinds me.
Well I believe they install bright lights at tunnel entrances so the T/O's eyes can adjust between darkness and daylight.
Huh? Those seats are fine for just casual train fans. But we railfans prefer a "motorman's" view of the road, signals and all.
The best window is the FRONT window. Nuff said!
Why are you boycotting RF windows, you should have praise for these steel beasts. You really act like you hate RF windows. Do you think an R46 is better than an R32 in overall performance?
Not necessarily in performance, but in comfort. I prefer the seating arrangement on all 75' cars over the against-the-wall benches of the 60' cars.
Nah, not me. I prefer the bench layout. To me its more comfortable, and much easier to move around the car when its crowded.
"I prefer the seating arrangement on all 75' cars over the against-the-wall benches of the 60' cars."
I'm with you on this one, I love bucket seating! -Nick
It's not the buckets, but the perpendicular arrangement. Riding a train is more fun when you're facing the direction you're moving.
Yes, as long as there is something to look at ahead of you, such as a window. Otherwise, it doesn't matter which way you sit.
I like that seat only if I'm on an empty (of less full) train. I hate when I sit there, and then as the train gets fuller and fuller, I get trapped in that seat, and then have to crawl over people and their bags to get out at my station. I'd just assume stand then.
Well I dont mind R32's on any line. After all, it gives you an opportunity to see the "11st Cut" of the Bay Ridge line from a railfan window.
It also makes the boring R just a little more interesting.
Well I dont mind R32's on any line. After all, it gives you an opportunity to see the "11st Cut" and the Bay Ridge line from a railfan window.
It also makes the boring R just a little more interesting.
I don't think the E has lost any R-32's, have they? So what are you complaining about?
With 45 trains able to run out of Jamaica Yard, the E has enough already to be all-R32. The F also sees a good amount of sets. Also, Chris, the only other yard to use R32s is Pitkin, and they are grouped with the R38s at times.
3939 F
Perhaps the G consists of R-46 cars are being extended by two cars each? Or perhaps the R-46 cars are in for some sort of upgrade or maintenance procedure? I've noticed a marked increase in their use on the R line, and even the F line as well. I haven't seen any R-46 trainsets on the E in a couple of months now, so that couldn't be it.
Have there been service increases for the Jamaica Yard routes? Are they planning to go to 11 60' car consists on the E, F, and maybe V? Is the Coney Island Yard now low on cars, or lower, since the transfer of its R-32 sets to Jamaica Yard? Just some speculative queries.
As far as I know, all of these R32's are coming from CI, which in turn are receving rolling stock from ENY due to the R143's there.
I think the F will get some as well. The E has nothing to worry about with its fleet. It's an R46 to watch out for on that line...
Different strokes for different folks, but this is a minority opinion, I am sure.
I'd be happy with an R-32, no matter where it is .... next stop, Pelham Bay Park :)
--Mark
The R32 belongs whereever the TA puts the R32's.
:-) Andrew
BTW rumor has it that the RCIs are bitchin and the 2 line may loose some of its R142s. That's rumor, of course.
Fact has it that those of you who ride the #7 are going to get ONE surprise. Yes, ONE, but trust me you'll like it. Don't know what its gonna happen though.
Some like R-142's and hate Redbirds; some like Redbirds and hate R-142's. Some would like expanded express service and some would like contracted express service. Some think the express should be called the 11 and some prefer the current moniker. Etc.
Unless the 7 is simply getting more service all around, local and express, there's nothing that everyone here would like.
Well I dunno, what if they were planning to build a 4th track? Not that that's ever gonna happen, but you can't say there's NOTHING that everyone would like. :)
(As would the taxpayers.)
See what I mean?
The Grand Street Station has another half of a platform behind the walls. It was intended for an a acrosss platform transfer to the second avenue line. Even if the MTA decides to not use the shallow Chrystie Street option, why not push the wall back to utilize the full platform? From what I understand Grand Street is very crowded when the Manhattan Bridge is in full swing. Or would that make too much sense?
More of a question to me is as to why it was built at Grand Street, not Delancey Street.
I've wondered that too, especially since the Crystie project was done well after the city took over the IRT and BMT. A transfer to Bowery station would have made enormous sense: presumably, there was some engineering problem, but then, the City is infamous for its mistakes.
(A transfer to Bowery station would have made enormous sense)
Enormous sense? Sure it would be useful to a few people. But how many people go from South Brooklyn to Williamsburgh? Also, you can get from Dekalb to the WB via Nassau St in just a few additional minutes.
Think in the other direction. How many people would like getting getting from a 6th Av train to east side downtown -- without changing at W4th and then negotiating the maze at B'way Nassau?
It seems to be the same logic that makes Bleecker St B'way-Laf the way it is.
(How many people would like getting getting from a 6th Av train to east side downtown)
Certainly some, though probably not huge numbers. I'm not saying a Bowery-B/D connection would be bad; I just don't think it needs to be high on anyone's priority list.
For 6th Ave to downtown, and many other reasons, I actually think it would be better to switch the locals south of W 4th, so that 6th Ave locals go to WTC and the Cranberry tunnel, while 8th Ave locals go to the Rutgers tunnel and possibly connect with the M.
A Bowery-Grand transfer would be an alternative to the crowded Essex-Delancey transfer.
It would be especially useful if, as you suggest, IND locals switched routes at W4: transfer at Essex for direct 8th Avenue service or at the Bowery for direct 6th Avenue service.
When they were building Chrystie, any reason for having a connection with the Bowery station was supposed to be made irrelevant by -- tah dah! -- the KK train using the other Chrystie connection between B'way Lafayette and Essex. passengers wanting to go via the Willie B were supposed to use that instead of the F transfer to the QJ or M trains at Delancey, and they could transfer from the B or the D at West Fourth or B'way-Lafayette to the KK.
In hindsight, the plan obviously didn't work out, and shifting the Grand Street station about 250 feet north, so it could have a transfer tunnel to Bowery on the J/M/Z, would have been a smart idea (the station could still have been kept at Grand, only the current entrance at the center of the station would have been at the far southern end instead).
It was advanced planning for the 2nd Ave line, to which a cross-the-platform transfer could be made to/from traisn over the Manny B.
I also thought that the Grand St wall was "fake" with a station shell behind it. Some posts on subtalk months ago suggested that this is an urban legend.
--Mark
Because despite popular belief, there is no such station shell behind the walls.
Usually Grand Street Station is the busiest around 6 7 8 PM timeframe. Majority of chinese people heads back to brooklyn with handful of Grocery bags from a long day work at the garment factories or restaurants. Why Grand Street Station was amoung the 3 chinatown's busiest subway station other than Canal Street Station and Bowery Station? Because Grand Stations is closer to most chinese straphangers' workplaces and chinese street markets.
The Grand Street station is also located between major residential areas. Aside from Asian shoppers commuting to and from the Chinatown area, there are also many co-op developments, tenements and other residences in the surrounding neighborhood!!!! Tony
nope... the so called outside platform doesn't exist... saw the reports on the MTA site some time ago dealing with the plans from the 1970's attempt... the problems with the station[they had to remove some space in the park for station expandtion]with cut and cover and so on..... so from what this tells me,the other platform isn't there...
Where is this? It's definatley a Q type train, but the structure and neighborhood doesn't look like any part of the Myrtle Ave. el. Third Ave?
It is not in the Bronx.
The cars date it to the 40's, wartime or later.
The 3rd & 5th Ave lines would be gone by that time.
It is an older 2 track structure with outside station platform.
Is it the Lexington Ave line?
I meant the 3rd Ave el in Manhattan. The Q's did operate there from 1949-1955.
Those aren't Q's.
Are they C's? If so, that opens up the possibility of it being on the Pitkin Ave. el.
I really can't tell. It's identified as a Q, and looks like a Q to me.
> It's identified as a Q
And we're never wrong! but he's right, it's a C.
Oh wait a minute! that picture's not the one from here (I have that same photo, but it's in the BMT C-Type section.)
I've gotta send the webmaster of subwaywebnews.com an e-mail correcting his misidentified pics and to tell him that his unidentified gate car pic is actually at Grand Ave. on the Lexington Ave. el.
I already emailed him about Grand Av with a link to that whole thread and all the posts and he sent me a thank you!!!
You can tell the difference by the windows on the doors. The "Q" cars have two small windows on the top of the doors sort of like the ones on the R1-9's. The "C" cars have 4 windows on the doors like the Triplexes and the Standards.
Heh. Glory "B"! :)
Heh. Glory "B"! :)
Errrr ... "C" ...
The fact that it's a one way street back then when there weren't many one ways intrigues me. Let me take a stab at it:
Pitkin Avenue?
Maybe!
Definatley!
this is the fulton el and if i remember right this is pikin av near
the conduit blvd. if you look at the side doors usued by passenger there are 4 windows in the door, this is a c car the Q cars only had 2 windows in the side passenger doors
jv
Plus the doors are on the exterior, not in pockets as on the Q cars.
thank you i forgot about that thanks
john
Those are C's, and that is Crescent St Station in the background.
The train is turning off Liberty onto Euclid Av.
Didn't the old el run above Crescent between Liberty & Pitkin like the J does between Fulton St & Jamaica Ave?
IINM it was Euclid, not Crescent.
The Jamaica Line turned onto Crescent to get from Fulton St to Jamaica Ave!
The Fulton Line turned onto Euclid to get from Pitkin to Liberty!
Any takers?
The Jamaica El ferry branch just west of Marcy Ave.
Nope.
Chris......That's a single car train coming in over the 5th Ave. el to the 36th St. station in Brooklyn. It just arrived from 65th St. inBay Ridge.
Hayos
Bullseye.
It is the 3rd Ave line coming into the 65th St Complex.
Very close. Right line, but ...
5th Ave El, 65th St Shuttle Car turning around in the vicinity of 36th St.
-Stef
cool... a 1000 series convertable
They should still have convertables
O.K.
For the streetcar folks here, when was the car line abandoned? There's no wire over the tracks in the street.
The wires are still there in the photo, but it's hard to see them.
If this is the 5th Avenue line, then 1949.
Check this photo of the same location from Joe Korman's site: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/fjgoldsmith/myst2.gif. Hayos post above is right- it's 5th Ave & 36 St Brooklyn.
Okay, today was the usual. Me and my friends coming home from school, ran downstairs to just catch the (late) A train, get off at Broadway Junction, go upstairs, get the L...that's where it got crazy.
There was a Canarsie-bound train of R42's sitting there, outer platform closed, holding lights on. It sat there for about 10 minutes, and then left. Still waiting for the Manhattan-bound train. Platform's getting crowded, no train in sight, no announcements. About two Manhattan-bound J trains have passed, and 3 additional Canarsie-bound R-143's have passed. One of those trains opened the doors on the wrong side (OOPS!) and everybody going to Canarsie had to go to the other platform. My friends and I start getting impatient, and finally I reason that there was construction until 3:00 that just ended, and that train we saw when we got there would have to go to Canarsie and come back. We didn't feel like waiting, and at that moment another J train started making the turn at Alabama. So, we said goodbye to the zoo at Broadway Junction and went down to catch the J. I didn't mind, because I only had to go one stop and walk four blocks. As for them, one had to change for the M to Wyckoff (running every 24 minutes!) and others had to get off at stops along Broadway and walk 8 extra blocks! On the way back I noticed a notice about the L marked "WEEK DAY" but didn't get to read it, said something about "...trains stop on the ...-bound track." I don't remember the rest. Anyone know what's going on? I heard nothing of this yesterday, although it was suspicious that the train that showed up (yesterday) was marked "Shuttle" on the front...
That mean's that train's from 8Av were ending at Broadway-Junction while you had only 1 train going back and forth as a shuttle to Rockaway Parkway. As for that other GO,24min M service,those rider's better start to get used to it and the people in Manhattan that stand there like a bunch of goofball's better start becoming more aware of what's going on.I mean if you stand at Fulton St for 24mins without a J train showing up only to see an M train pull in at the 24th mintue then that should give ANYONE a clue that something isn't right and that maybe they should take that M train and follow instructions. Can't hurt to try afterall.
I was heading southbound on an R62 today on the 4, when we stopped at Burnside Avenue (IRT Woodlawn). On the Northbound track (not the center one, but the real northbound track) while the train was pulling away, instead of hearing the normal IEEEEEE of the R142A's I heard the three-chime noise of the R142's. I didn't have time to look out the window and make sure by looking at the cosmetic differences, but I am almost certain it was and R142. Obviously, the R142/R142A mix on the 4 has begun.
Well its all good. New cars. It was probalby the first of the low number cars are the high number R142 like 71??. Anyway good Job.
AMI
Sorry, I didn't get to see the number.
I seen 7141-45/7161-65 doing burn testing on the #4 Line Monday night.
"instead of hearing the normal IEEEEEE of the R142A's I heard the three-chime noise of the R142's"
Did you check under the train to see if you saw a violinist? :p
-Nick
Trust me, it was the train :P
R142A is Currect the #4 is starting to get R142's and the # 3 will be getting R62's shortly form the #4 Line.
"the # 3 will be getting R62's shortly form the #4 Line."
Does this mean no R142s or R142As for the #3? What about the 1/9?
-Nick
There will be NO R142/R142A for the 3. The 3 will be getting 1301-1625 from the 4. The R62As from the 3 will be heading over to the S 4 and 7. (S and 4 will only get cars 1901-1965). The rest will be on the 7. 1 and 9 will have cars 2156-2475. Not sure if they will keep a few 1700s and 1800s there or not.
#1979 7 Flushing Local
What causes those noises anyway? (I apologize if this has been discussed already, and I'm sure it has.)
It is the conversion from the 3rd rail DC power to the Train's AC Motor power. There are different sounds, due to the different motors.
Interesting. I thought the 4 was only going to have As. BTW, why do the 142s make that three pitch change?
due to the conversion from the DC power from the rails to the AC power from the motor
I remember this past weekend seeing 3 different R-142 sets, all from the 5, on the 4. All had the strip maps lit up, incorrectly.
That could have something to do with the 4 being closed the past few weekends between 161-Yankee Stadium and Woodlawn.
"That could have something to do with the 4 being closed the past few weekends between 161-Yankee Stadium and Woodlawn."
You are correct sir.
Da Beastmaster
"That could have something to do with the 4 being closed the past few weekends between 161-Yankee Stadium and Woodlawn."
You are correct sir.
Da Beastmaster
Ever stand on a platform just as a train of R-142s closes its doors, and starts to pull away? They make a sound that sounds uncanilly like someone tuning a violin....I know, for quite sometime, I would hear that sound, and look out onto the plaftform to see where the guy was playing the violin!!
That's the three-chime. I personally like the R142A's IEEEEEE better.
Three chime? I never heard of that before? Can you explain? Thanks much,CC
When the R142 pulls away, you hear three different tones or chimes. On the R142A, you hear a sound like this: IEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
It's the start of the conversion of the DC 3rd rail power to the AC motors.
Go Here http://www.transitalk.org/Sounds.html then scroll down until you see R142.
Thanks much!! CC
Ever wonder why the MTA wasted so much money ripping out old station signs, and replacing them with signs that say EXACTLY THE SAME THING?? For instance; say at "GRAND CENTRAL", every pillar has an enamel sign that reads: GRAND CENTRAL"...the MTA rips those signs out, replaces them with lower-case lettered signs reading "GRAND CENTRAL"? What is the logic? A harried straphager could care less if the signs on the plaform are 60 years old or not...if the sign still gives accurate info, it should be left alone. Plus, the older signs, with the bold upper case-letters, were much easier to read than the new ones that replaced them. Where are all those old signs now? I know the MTA could not possibly sell all of them..
I guess conformity to new signage colors, letter case, etc. Trying to make everything look unified.
As for old signs, most likely they're just thrown away.
Well I have a "42" white with black letters column sign from 42/8th (I think from the lower level) that I bought a the transit Museum tag sale.
A "N'RTH'N BLVD" and a "ROOSE-VELT" pillar sign that I bought at a yard sale many years ago.
Unfortunately I think many were just thrown out though.
The stairs leading down to the Coney Island bound platform were marked with a sign reading "From City."
It's funny, as if trains down there weren't going anywhere, it was just important where they were coming from.
Was this a standard marking? I never noticed it anywhere else.
I think that most of the Southern Division BMT had those signs. I don't recall seeing them on the Eastern Division.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Up until the early 80s, there were a couple of chrome/silver change booths at the main entrance to the IND 8th Ave. Line at the Port of Authority bus terminal.......I would guess these booths were installed around 1950, when new entrances were built to connect with the then-new PABT. Any other stations have these chrome booths? One of the ones I mentioned, (circa 1981), still had an OPPY-illustrated cartoon-style decal reading " SAVE TIME! BUY TOKENS TODAY!"
All those booths are gone. TA started changing their token booths in 1981. Except for a few stations the standard booth is the type you usually see now.
When the R12s and R14s ran on the Flushing line until 1964, they ran in trains of thier own type. The R15s likewise. But after they were transferred to the IRT mainlines, they ran in "mixed"trains: I can remember in the 70s and early 80s, a "typical" 7th Ave line train would be mixed R12s/15s,R22s, etc. Why were these cars mixed in with "mainline" IRT cars instead of trains of thier own type? Was it something to with operating flexiblity? Also I know the 12s and 14s had R10 style outdoor conductor stations.....the R15s and other "newer" cars had interior conductor stations......I can remember this made for a very jumbled looking train...a train I would not hesitate to jump on board today!!
Saw some pictures of it. Looks very strange.
When they transferred the R12s and R14s to the mainline routes (mostly #2 and #3), they tended to use them at the ends of the trains so that the conductors wouldn't have to perch between the cars.
-- Ed Sachs
In their final days, I can remember standing on the uptown platform at 14th St. and Seventh Ave. when a downtown 3 train came in the station -- every single car an R-12, R-14 or R15. I was in enough shock I didn't check to see if the R-15s were at the conductor's positions, but I assume they were. But that was the only time I ever remember them being on the mainline by themselves, without some of the R-17 though R-36ML cars are part of the consist.
Here's what I could find on early times for the R-12/14/15s:
"Mechanically, the R-15s were virtually identical to the R-12/14s, thus making them fully compatible. For many years after the R-15s entered Flushing service in February 1950, the custom was to keep the two fleets segregated because of differences in the Conductors' control positions. In late 1949 the rubber joints of the original R-12 and R-14 trucks (as well as on the IND R-10s) began to fail, and were supplanted by steel replacements. Other minor problems were experienced with the R-12/14s air regulation in the new braking system, and valve modifications performed. As these problems were corrected and the R-15s began to stream into #7 service in time for Spring, the last train of Steinways was removed from the Flushing Line in April 1950 and transferred to the mainlines. All 350 of the first IRT SMEE group were in #7 service by late September."
Kodachromes I've seen from the early 1960s pretty much support the above, except the cars are a bit ratty looking by then. I also hear that the R-15s were mixed with R-17s that came over in late 1962 to create 10-car trains.
When they went to the Mainlines starting in 1963, there was no longer any reason to separate the R-12/14/15s out, and this would probably have been way too much trouble as it was. They just needed the cars on the road, period.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
If the R17's created 10 car trains, what did they have before then ?
Mixes still happen, at least on the Flushing line; there are consists of Mainline and World's Fair cars together. Certainly not as weird as the consists you described, but still quite easily made out (the windows are a giveaway).
Since the R-12s and R-14 had electric door engines, they didn't experience the delay in door opening while running in mixed consists the way the R-10s did with their pneumatic doors. Thus another possibility why they didn't hesitate mixing those two car classes with later types on the mainlines. The main reason was to keep conductors inside the cars.
The only time the R-12s ran by themselves after 1964 was on the 3rd Ave. el.
I took these two photos on March 16, 2003 at about 2:00pm. I love this location. I first fell in love with it after taking this blurry photo back on March 11, 2001. So finally, a little over two years later, I was brave enough to come back here with a camera even though there is now a full-time cop stationed 10 feet behind where I was standing. It was well worth it! Here are the results:
R-68A @ Queensboro Plaza (W)
R-40 @ Queensboro Plaza (W)
Take Pride,
Brian
Wow, those are some great shots. I don't know why, but for some reason (other than the R40) I like the second one better. This is a unique perspective, I've never seen a shot of a train coming from that direction-for that matter, I've never stood on the upper level platform and seen a train coming from that direction.
And as for the full-time cop, behind you, forget about it. I really believe that people taking pictures really shouldn't be afraid of police, as long as they don't look too suspicious or are taking too many shots of the same thing. They never give me any problems. I took a shot of a signal at a construction site with seven cops and eleven TA workers in plain sight. In fact, a conductor once offered to keep the doors open so I could take another picture of the train. Then again...I'm only a kid, maybe they don't think of teenagers as being potential terrorists.
are taking too many shots of the same thing.
Well I was standing there for about 45 minutes, shooting everything that came by.... Anyhow, I'm glad you like them.
---Brian
>>> It was well worth it! Here are the results: <<<
Good Shots! Now go back and do them again with a filter. :-)
Tom
Good Shots! Now go back and do them again with a filter. :-)
You mean so the sky will come out a darker shade of blue, and the clouds will contrast against it more?
---Brian
>>> You mean so the sky will come out a darker shade of blue, and the clouds will contrast against it more? <<<
Yes, and the buildings and train will have richer color also. Do you ever use filters? If not you should try a few shots with and without them and compare for yourself. They often add to the artistic effect of a well composed picture, particularly when there is a glare in the lighting.
Tom
No, I've never used filters. The only reason I know about them is that I was told that in order to make Cornell University look more appealing to prospective students, the front cover of the info booklet has a photo taken with a filter so the sky looks deep blue and the clouds are white (but in reality it is usually hazy, bleak, and grey up in Ithaca).
In any event, I use a digital camera so I doubt I could use filters with it.
---Brian
They somehow filter out the snow, too.
I think I spelled "gray" wrong in the above post. Or I'm British. Or I'm from the Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District.
---Brian
Tom, do you know if using certian Photoshop tools can simulate the use of a filter? There is a menu called "Filters" so maybe this can substitute for a real filter? I sometimes use the "Auto Levels" or "Auto Colors" to correct too much green or blue and the photo will change color into what it actually looked like in real life.
>>> do you know if using certian Photoshop tools can simulate the use of a filter? <<<
No, I have never used Photoshop. If you have the program you could experiment.
Tom
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was at 34th/6th early this morning and took this photo. If you look closely, you can faintly see beams of light extending from the headlights. I'm not really sure what causes this, but this same thing shows up in almost all of the 1970's era photos on this site and I've been wanting to recreate it since it is so cool. Well, here's a good start I think. This is another good photo location. I'll be back here again soon.
R-68 2676 @ 34th St (D)
Take Pride,
Brian
It's the same reason you can see the beam of a flashlight. Dust or smoke or water vapor in the air reflects it...
Without anything blocking (even pure oxygen blocks stuff), you wouldn't be able to see light.
34th Street Station at morning rush hour, and not a person in sight?! How in the world did you manage that? Did you pay everybody in the station to leave or something? Every time I take a picture someone gets in the way somehow, even at 6 PM on a Sunday. You're amazing...I love your work. Your site could give even David competition, except for this message board.
34th Street Station at morning rush hour, and not a person in sight?! How in the world did you manage that?
7:00AM isn't exactly rush hour...that's how I pulled it off. Plus I waited until everyone got on to the train and the T/O was doing something inside the car.
You're amazing...I love your work.
You're too kind. But I never stop giving...in the last hour, I just cropped 120 photos that I haven't put online yet. Something to look forward to.... :)
---Brian
OK who took the pic of my train without me in my cab?
Just kidding. That is a nice shot. So clear, no blurrs. You have a very steady hand with a camera. I wish I could take pics like that.
Pssst, come closer and I'll tell you a secret. To get these underground photos to come out clear, I hold the side of the camera against a steel column. When I press the shutter button, I'm also putting horizontal pressure on the camera to keep it perfectly still. This method doesn't work 100% of the time. You only see the photos that come out well. In order to get this photo, I had to take four others before it that came out blurry. Also, this station is lit up pretty well. As such, I was able to leave the camera is ISO 100 mode, which greatly reduces graniness.
---Brian
Whoa, thanks for the tips. I've been having problems with blurring. I'm gonna have to try that out next time I go out to take pics.
The germ-killing lamps in the R11s were installed during the polio era...today, with so many different strains of flu, viruses, and germs from places we never dreamed of, I think ultra-violet germ-killing lamps are a MUST in NY subway cars. Especially useful for when straphanging slobs wipe thier running noses or cough into thier hands then clutch a strap or pole........YYYYUUCCCKKKKKK!!
I think ultra-violet germ-killing lamps are a MUST in NY subway cars
No offense, but I think you're crazy
The device you refer to were called "PERCIPITRONS". Once it was found that the percipitron might cause sterility and other problems, they were removed. I don't believe that you'll see them again on any NYCT equipment in your lifetime.
I think you are right there!
And a good thing NYCTA did by removing them.
Indeed. A wipe down with disinfectant tends to do the same germ-killing job without side effects.
Actually, tests by CDC have determined that the BEST disinfectant is still good old fashioned tallow soap and water - those "wipes" are actually only marginally effective as are those "gels" ... "soap and water" is notably superior to any of those modern products. Just in case anyone gets nervous about germs, sage advice that can be researched at CDC ...
True. Also, Antibacterial disinfectant only stays long enough on a dirty surface to kill the weak bacteria, leaving the stronger bacteria to thrive. This along with the overuse of antibiotics are causing bactieria to become resistant to drugs.
Soap and water IS the best thing. It'll probably allows a little bacteria to stay and get into your body, but that's a GOOD thing, it allows your body to identify it and become immune to it. Sterile environments don't allow your immune system to stay alert, thus weakening it.
Do any sill survive? If so, are any still in use?
I hate to sound like a dummy, but...what is a substation? Is that some kind of power supply thing?
Yes.
Thanks. If that's the case, I believe there's one on the Broadway (Brooklyn) line somewhere.
I think they still exist.
While it is common knowledge that subway signals are re-wired over the years, what are the oldest SIGNALS (i.e, signal casing) in use today? I know the old IRT signals have been replaced, and to most, signals appear unchanged over many decades. I would guess the IND's are original....what about the BMT?
Well, I don't know about old, but I know about new. WD (wheel detector) signals are the newest type and were installed circa 1996
didn't know that...interesting! Thanks! CC
I know the old IRT signals have been replaced...
I don't think so...
Taken Sunday, March 23rd, 2003, at 4 PM. The red aspect is in the center, yellow on the bottom. I saw another one at E 180 that day, but the sun was glaring at that end of the platform, so I couldn't get a shot off. Hmmm...maybe I should take a class in photography... :)
E180 currently being changed out, and that is the last conventional machine on the IRT. Some older style home signal _heads_ exist still at Mott Ave, and some automatics on the Lex line still have the red in the middle
The oldest signals I believe are the US&S rounded traffic lights.
BMT is completely resignalled except:
some signals on B'way express tracks are original
8th Ave / 38th St currently being changed out.
8th ave/3rd Ave/Bedford Ave/Myrtle Ave on the Canarsie are all original, conventional-type plants.
...and I'm not just talking about signal _casing_ as you say, these are the original installations, save for spare wires used over the years.
Thanks for the info.....good to know these things. CC
The L has most of there orgial signals allong the line. Most of the timing signal you can't tell if there going to be on timed or not. They don't have the white light under the reds or S under the Yellow to show this. My rule is if you see a train close in frount of you treat them as if there not being timed. I have not hit a timer yet since I been on the L since September of last year. Now watch I hit two on Thursday when I go back to work.
Robert
The oldest signal in service today is at the west end of the
Times Sq-bound platform at 5 Ave on the Steinway/Flusing line.
It is a contract-I (pneumatic semaphore without protruding blades)
that was later converted to color-light. I imagine its days are
numbered.
...going to have to check that out! Thanks! CC
Have you guys put in a bid for it yet? :)
Sorry to dissapoint you, Jeff. That signal was removed at least a year ago.
Oh no! I hope the Transit Museum got it! There was one more
signal like that at one time, I think up in the Bronx near
138 St.
There was another one on the Queens bound track. I forget where. It was somewhere between Times Square and Grand Central. I hear that one is gone too.
Did you know that between 1875 and 1897 Pitkin Ave was called Eastern Parkway.
It officially became Pitkin Ave in 1897!
only half of it was renamed! The address system here, come to think of it, if one is thinking, should be a dead giveaway.
Yes. Old BRT maps show a station "Eastern Parkway" EAST of Atlantic Avenue.
The story is that the locals in Brownsville thought that Eastern Parkway was going to be extended out there way, but they were wrong. When it turned north to Bushwick Ave., their piece was renamed Pitkin Avenue.
<É>When it turned north to Bushwick Ave.,
Why did they do that?
Well, that's where the planners wanted it to go, I don't know what the thinking was.
The people in Brownsville looked at the map and made the assumption that Eastern Parkway was going to continue out their way. They just guessed (or hoped) wrong.
Before that time, Pitkin Avenue was called Broadway.
I think that the current Broadway should be renamed Williamsboul Burgevard.
Queens and SI Broadways should also become some sort of boulevard.
I think that the current Broadway should be renamed Williamsboul Burgevard.
Good idea. The Willy Blvd El - sounds right!
Queens and SI Broadways should also become some sort of boulevard.
How about Elmhurst Blvd for the Queens one and St Peter's Blvd for the Staten Island one.
Then Myrtle Avenue on Staten Island must be renamed, as it is completely insignificant, but has an intersection with Broadway.
How about Elmhurst Blvd for the Queens one and St Peter's Blvd for the Staten Island one.
There already is an Elmhurst Avenue. I say call it Hunter's Point Ferry Road!
Or you could go for vanity and call it Pig Boulevard!
Rumor has it that the first train to traverse the new track near Broadway Junction on the (L) will be around 5:00am this coming Monday. Anyone up for an early morning ride? If I get suffcient confirmation that it will really happen, then I will try to get there for it. This would be my third "First" - the previous two being:
1. first train over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (Midnight, July 22, 2001) (about 3 other SubTalkers came to this)
2. first train over the restored track to South Ferry (Midnight, September 15, 2002) (about 6 other SubTalkers came to this)
So anyone want to join me? Reply to this post or email me if you are interested. If you show up for this, you are seriously hardcore :)
---Brian
I wish I could but I need my beauty sleep, plus I start work at 6:45AM. But I'll be there in spirit, partner. Let me know how it goes.
I wish I can join you but I am in florida. If there is any chance for some one to document these changes with pictures please. but do not get in any trouble. thanks and enjoy the new ride. the old one was great while it lasted
john
If you show up for this, you are seriously hardcore :)
Very tempted, but I guess I'll unfortunately have to pass. I would have to leave at 2:30 AM to catch a 2:40 AM LIRR train that would get me at East New York at 4:01 AM. I could drive, but would also have to leave about 3:15-3:30 to get to Sutter Ave around 4:30 in order to catch that first train. So you left some very appetizing food on the table here, but unfortunately I can't eat it! Midnight would have been a bit easier. Very tempting though!
Oh well.......
You'll be there in spirit. Maybe I'll wear a ribbon or something with your name on it :)
---Brian
LOL....
PHOTOS***PHOTOS***PHOTOS****
(Like I even have to mention that).
Well, is it even light out at 5:00am? No, Yahoo says that sunrise tomorrow is 5:51am. So what do I take photos of? I guess I can take photos of the inside of the R-143, of the T/O, and of the other distinguished guests onboard. But if I'm riding the ceremonial train, and it's dark out, there isn't much to photograph. I'n open to suggestions and requests though.
Sheet, that's right. Oh well.
(you could leave your camera home, take a photo of the dark inside of your dark closet, and we'll have to believe you took that on that trip).
Nope, have to go back to college on Sunday.
Nah, unless I went to bed at 8:30 Sunday night...and if FOX is going to be showing The Simpsons, Malcolm in the Middle, and Oliver Beene, I don't think that'll happen...oh well. BTW, is the train supposed to be at Atlantic at 5 or does it leave Canarsie at 5?
I don't know. A safe bet would be to wait at Sutter Ave.
If I goes to work on Thursday I will look up the time the first train will make the trip out of Canarsei on Monday(3/31/03). If I do not go to work becouse for my Daugter being sick, I will defelly be going on Friday, I can't afford to miss two days of work right before I go on Voaction. I will start a new Thread once I get the time. It will be call "First train thought new connection of L line", OK.
Robert
Although I will not be able to ride the first train over the new trackage, there are a lot of Sub-Talkers who can say they took the last Redbird train over the old Snedeker Ave trestle with the 12/7/02 fan trip.
Cool photo - a dying train on a dying station platform.
BTW, does anywone know if 9338 and 9311 are Sunkbirds yet, or are they still around.
Awesome! And I hope your daughter gets better.
---Brian
Thack she has an ear infection, but she can still go to school on Thursday.
Robert
I guess I'm not "hardcore".
darn right you aren't hardcore
For the gathering at Branford this sunday, if anyone is riding on Metro-North to New Haven, perhaps we can meet at Grand Central and ride together on the train. I reposted my e-mail link on the site here, so if it's still a GO on Sunday, and anyone plans on riding Metro North, e-mail me and we'll arrange to meet. My only question is, which train should we take?
Bklyn
The IRT Lo-V / Hi-V Charter will happen rain or shine !
We've asked Todd to use all his influence & maybe do a little anti-rain dance, but the charter will happen in any case.
Our problem is that this is the last Sunday before public operations start. As it is we have a second charter of a trolley that day, so some of us will be doing double duty (as we did in October).
I'll do my best to keep the rain away, mr. t., but I'm not sure my powers work out-of-state :-)
Geez ... you must hold an FCC third class ... those of us with Firsts and RADAR endorsement can affect the weather for a 250 km radius. :)
I think those daffodils in the Common realy need a little rain. How about a bit more energy in the Jet Stream to blow it right past CT ?
At least Sparky won't have to stand outside in the mist this time, i.e. he had public operations & MOW equipment to contend with in October. This time it's just one other charter & he's already picked just the guy to handle it.
And accept for some air leaks the Lo-V has been working just fine ...
knock, knock on wood < grin > Pritty good for a ACF product from 1924 !
Eh? Who does he have on the other charter?
-Stef
SURPRISE!!! :)
Oh stop it... LOL! I already have an idea who might have it... Just a curious thing.
-Stef
Just remember, you are a fluke of the universe, and whether you believe it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. :)
^^^"I already have an idea who might have it... Just a curious thing"^^^
Stef, It may not be who you thing it is. The Roadmaster is isn't, but he's about this weekend. He plays Examiner for the Trainees on Saturday. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Hey Kev, be sure and give 1689 a pat on the side for me. Better yet, pop one of the trigger caps.:)
AIR LEAKS? Have you guys no ARNINE experience? GEEZ! What the HADES do you think all those GUM dispensers on the platform were for? The GEESE?!?!?!? :)
Guess we can't expect the "whipper snappers" to know what we old timers know! LOL!!!
Twin packs of chiclets in the yellow box for a penny solved snotty couplers - for the SERIOUS angle cock hose break, you'd need to actually apply the SINGLE stick of DENTYNE. :)
You know, come to think of it, that would be prototicipal < grin >
But then so is graffitti ... nah !
What about my initial RT qualifying run on 5466. Not that familiar
with the unit, so I ask "Motor Instructor" to talk about the car.
Well, he asked if I objected to having visitors on the trip. Why not,
was my reply, as it was a scheduled operating Saturday in '88 or '89.
The Lord was looking out for me that tr
What about my initial RT qualifying run on 5466. Not that familiar
with the unit, so I ask "Motor Instructor" to talk about the car.
Well, he asked if I objected to having visitors on the trip? Why not,
was my reply, as it was a scheduled operating Saturday in '88 or '89.
The Lord was looking out for me that trip, ran as smooth as babys
bottom both directions. Stop right on the mark at Avenue L. Received
a round of applause from the geese and crossed eyed look from the
teacher. Hey, I got war stories after 18 years at two museums. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
^^^"MOW equipment to contend with in October"^^^
Thurston, you forget that he is about this weekend. You know, he'll
find something to curtail the length of the run. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Well then we'll just tell our visitors that his show was planned & it will keep Pilot Lou awake looking out for him on the line < grin >
Lo-V yes, Hi-V no, if it rains heavily.
Uncle Dougie & I made her look presentable by moving the renovation supplies to another car. Then Mike & I gave her some TLC servicing the next Saturday.
8-) ~ Sparky
To answer the posters question, you want the first New Haven Express out of GCT at 8:07 which will get you there near 10:30 if you take cab from Union Station ($12).
Email John S to arrange for any type of pickup at New Haven as I can not speak to that.
Eailer choices are the 5:40 and 6:40 LOCAL, the problem on the weekend is the long time between the 640 local and the 807 express.
That local is a killer, I have done it many a time.
---Brian
......Barbra Striesand is seen dashing down the subway steps at Boro Hall, bieng pursued by a police dog....then, she is running through the station (obviously the Court St Station before the Museum opened)At the platform is a train of pre-war Rs (she boards R7a #1531) But check out the routing on the side rollers "EIGHTH AVE CONEY ISLAND LL 14TH STREET LOCAL" GEEEE..I never knew the LL ran to Coney !! (lol) Just another example of how Hollywood figures that no one in the theatre will be checking out the signs on a dirty old subway car! As the train pulls out, look quickly, and you will see a motorman sitting in the cab in the last car! Obviously, what they did, was have the train pull out of the station, and then have the other motorman pull the train back into Court St again.....this time the station signs read "CLARK ST."(never knew the IND stopped at Clark St(!!)and the front sign reads "LL"!! Ahhhh, the magic of Hollywood! (ps..for you bus fans (me included),there quick glimpses of two GMC and one Flxible Fishbowls, all in original 1960s green in the scene where a cop releases a police dog to pursue Babs.
Yeah, I noticed all that, too.
So much for Hollywood authenticity!!
Couldn't be any worse than watching the Pelham-123 arrive at Grand Central braking with the sounds of an R9. Those sounds were good in Nighthawks too. Did this Pete's sake have the appropriate growls in it?
Speaking of braking and squealing sounds, has anyone noticed on both Law & Order and Law & Order:SVU that any time there is a scene taking place on the street, in the background you hear the sounds of an el taking a sharp curve (wheels squealing)? Even in a locale where there is no el? You sometimes hear this even during an indoor shot if the "windows" are open. NBC needs to start using a different "city background sounds" tape! At least ABC doesn't make the same mistake on NYPD Blue.
Yes....you could tell the Rs sounds WERE Indeed the Rs!! Watch the flick (available on BHS tape and hear for yourself!) CC
My observation is that no movie ever gets train detail right, anywhere - there's no special discrimination against the NYC subway!
I spent about two hours this afternoon at Brooklyn Bridge, from about 3:30 to about 5:30.
I made a few interesting observations. Cars 1322, 1323, and 1324 (R-62's assigned to the 4) were signed at the south end as 3 (I couldn't see the north ends from where I was standing). Has the migration of R-62's to the 3 begun yet or was this a remnant of the weekend's GO's on the 3 and 4? Five 2 trains came through, all NB, all running R-142's without updated announcements: at 4:24 (S 6415), 4:36, at 4:56 (N 6536), at 5:11 (N 6391), and at 5:30 (N 6330 / S 6366) (all according to my watch, which may be off by a minute or so).
But here's the disturbing news. During that entire time, only two Redbird sets passed through, both on the 4. One was N9232-9233-9240-9241-9160-9261-9303-9302-9109-9108S. The other included 9254/5 and 9090/1, but I didn't catch the other car numbers. Within those two hours, I think I saw every train running on the 4 and every train running on the 5. (I waited until the first Redbird consist came back from the north before giving up hope.) What that means is that, during this afternoon's rush hour, the 4 had only two Redbird sets and the 5 had none. The formidable reign of the mainline R-33 is coming to a close -- fast.
David:
With at least 380 R-142s available for the 5, Redbirds are on stand-by and may not be needed. There are only 18 of the SMS cars on the active roster at the moment.
This may seem contradictory (why store rehabilitated cars on the 5 and keep junk rolling on the 4?) but the motive seems to be budgetary. The best explanation I can get is this (and its a little clumsy):
In a nutshell, the "SMS" R-33s at East 180 are not getting enough miles to make their SMS cycles. As I understand it, money is directly allocated for each type of equipment at each facility, so there is no shifting of resources to trade-off the quality of maintenance. Thus, the only way to remove the R-33s' (superfluous) SMS budget line is to elimiante the R-33s. On the other hand, those "non-SMS" Redbirds on the 4 have been removed from the full SMS program for some time and being maintained as required until no longer needed. Its cheaper (though arguably less reliable) that way. I'm not sure but I THINK all 7 line Redbirds are still active under SMS.
Meanwhile, it's indeed going to be a crap shoot whether any are in service on a given day. Otherwise, you'll have to hang out for quite a while to see anything except on the 7.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
An r62 set comes along shortly behind it and I blatantly curse
the selection.
1SF9
HELLBENT on not letting THAT be my last Redbird Memoir..
---Brian
I spent about two hours this afternoon at Brooklyn Bridge, from about 3:30 to about 5:30.
I made a few interesting observations. Cars 1322, 1323, and 1324 (R-62's assigned to the 4) were signed at the south end as 3 (I couldn't see the north ends from where I was standing). Has the migration of R-62's to the 3 begun yet or was this a remnant of the weekend's GO's on the 3 and 4? Five 2 trains came through, all NB, all running R-142's without updated announcements: at 4:24 (S 6415), 4:36, at 4:56 (N 6536), at 5:11 (N 6391), and at 5:30 (N 6330 / S 6366) (all according to my watch, which may be off by a minute or so).
But here's the disturbing news. During that entire time, only two Redbird sets passed through, both on the 4. One was N9232-9233-9240-9241-9160-9261-9303-9302-9109-9108S. The other included 9254/5 and 9090/1, but I didn't catch the other car numbers. Within those two hours, I think I saw every train running on the 4 and every train running on the 5. (I waited until the first Redbird consist came back from the north before giving up hope.) What that means is that, during this afternoon's rush hour, the 4 had only two Redbird sets and the 5 had none. The formidable reign of the mainline R-33 is coming to a close -- fast.
The other included 9254/5 and 9090/1, but I didn't catch the other car numbers.
If nothing has been switched around since Monday afternoon, it's S-9255-4-9090-1-9301-0-9279-8-9261-0-N
truly sad to see one of the greatest champions of the rails under New York living out thier last days.....an era is truly ending.....CC
Saturday the #5 had 1 redbird running.
"Cars 1322, 1323, and 1324 (R-62's assigned to the 4) were signed at the south end as 3 (I couldn't see the north ends from where I was standing). Has the migration of R-62's to the 3 begun yet or was this a remnant of the weekend's GO's on the 3 and 4?"
Remnants of the Bklyn IRT GO.
"Five 2 trains came through, all NB, all running R-142's without updated announcements: at 4:24 (S 6415), 4:36, at 4:56 (N 6536), at 5:11 (N 6391), and at 5:30 (N 6330 / S 6366) (all according to my watch, which may be off by a minute or so)."
There were signals problems btwn Boro Hall and Fulton St, causing some #2s to run up the Lex.
Da Beastmaster
...we all know that the demise of the few remaining Redbirds is near at hand. Just how many are left in service? How many trainsets on the Flushing Line? Lex? 7th Ave? And when are the last Redbirds to be taken out of service?
Did you just see David J. Greenbergers post? He said he only saw two sets on the (4) and none on the (5). The (7) still has a ton of redbird sets. Seventh Ave has none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. I'm going to go whimper in the corner now.
---Cry'in Brian
....Brian.........now I'm CRYIN'!! I ride the 7th Ave to and from my job in lower Manhattan, and the last Redbird I rode was at least a month ago......and I remember plowing through the crowd to hop on board that vanishing relic! That was the last I saw of ANY Redbirds on the 7th Ave........These cars are vanishing faster than the Lo-Vs did when bieng replaced by the Redbirds in the early 60s! I cannot believe these cars, only a few years back, so common and numerous, are now virtually extinct. Rust In Peace, Old Red Friends.................
They've been gone from the 7th Av lines since August 2002. The train you rode must have been a rerouted (4) or (5). But I'm happy to hear that you got to ride a redbird on the 7th Av line so recently.
---Brian
I rode a Redbird 2 train in October, signed fully as a 2. (In the process, I missed the last R-29 5 train. I saw it go by in the Bronx, and it was gone the next day.)
There it goes, riding off into the distance.
October / August, you knew what I meant.
You must be right as to the train bieng a re-routed #4 or #5...as I dashed through the crowd and onto the train, I never bothered to read the route signs. I just assumed it was a "normal" 7Th Ave express. Guess it was fate that made me catch that train! CC
It is hard to believe that the "Redbirds" will soon be gone forever. I have ridden many of them over the years and they had great railfan windows. Now so many of them have been replaced by the R-142s "RED EYE ROCKETS" and soon they're won't be another "redbird" to ride. Say farewell to the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
Within a few weeks, ALL REDBIRDS will be removed from the East Side Lines. By the Fall, I guarantee that ALL REDBIRDS will be gone for good. Guess we'll have to get used to this picture-sad but true.
It's just like when they got rid of the R27/R30 nothing but silver bullets all over the place or in the B Division's case silver hippos.
#2500 N Sea Beach Local
#1681 7 Flushing Express
Yes...the demise of the Redbirds is now at hand. And you are right....what can we do? But, we CAN be grateful for all the photos of them that will keep them alive in our minds, not to mention videos, memorabilia, and, most important, the memories. No one can ever destroy our Redbird memories! CC
I must say that die-hard "Redbird" fans should try to ride them while they can, because soon they'll be no more. We'll soon have to say, "Bye, Bye, Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
I saw a full train of R-33's fully signed up as a 2 at East 180th Street Yard, which wasn't there last time-it's not running?
I don't think it is in service as a (2) train.
Back in the 80s, while riding downtown every morning on a downtown CC train, as soon as the train entered the Spring St station. I would see old signs pointing away from the Spring St entrance marked "VAN DAM" ...When was that entrance closed off? And, if I remember correctly, there is a closed underpass between platforms there as well.
I think there is a high wheel exit at Van Dam now. But there was a part time booth at the north end of Spring St years ago. That is long gone. The underpass is still there. But at the Spring St entrance.
Van Dam is in Queens. The Manhattan street is Vandam.
Thanks.
My stepson, who is a fan of the Sly Stallone-type actor called Van Damme, took a photo of that sign last year. It *is* Van Dam (two words), whatever the spelling of the street up above!
The street up above is probably a typo anyway.
I know there was a colonial governor of NY named Rip Van Dam.
What is the current stage reached in the reconstruction of the Stillwell Ave terminal? How is current train service affected? (I'm from Jersey, and haven't been out to Coney since 1992)And how will the restored BMT facade tie in? Are there any artist's renditions showing how the new station will look when completed?
At the present time the only train that goes to Stillwell Ave is the W (formally the B) train. I think in the morning and the afternoon the F,Q and N trains are allowed to use the trackage there to get their trains in and out of Coney Island Yard. But the platforms are under reconstruction so they wouldn't be able to make station stops there.
Must be some mess out there with all this going on! Thanks...CC
It looks like someone dropped a bomb on the lot; they were pounding away with concrete-pulverizing machines last time I was there (3/8/2003) and the steel structures that were formerly clad in concrete are no longer so clad. The "W" platform is intact, but everything else has been reduced to heaps and chunks of concrete and rebar.
wayne
You mean the tracks are back? Last time I went there the tracks were completely gone, except for the W's and the four-track crossover with the Sea Beach.
There ais a temp train right along side were the old N platfrom was. This is how the train get in and out of the yards.
Robert
Fs get their trains from Ave X; Ns from just south of 86 St. Only the Qs run through the area, on the rebuilt 1 Track.
As far as I know, the W train is the only one terminating at Stillwell. Q trains terminate at Brighton Beach, F trains terminate at Avenue X and the N terminates at 86 St. Shuttle buses connect Stillwell, Neptune Av and Avenue X while the B68 serves the closed West 8 St and Ocean Parkway stops.
I've never been down there so I have no clue as to how the renovation is progressing.
Thanks........I imagine it must be chaos out there in Coney!
The F track has been removed. This is as of March 19, when I got a chance to look there because my class at SJU had a field trip out to the Aquarium. I am not even sure how Q trains get to the yard anymore.
All platforms have been removed, save the W platform.
Coincedentally, I just went there today, and it looks like someone pulled the two front teeth out your face. Everything except the W is being ripped up and replaced. I was going to take pictures, but a W was blocking too much of the view for me to get a good picture. All of the other platforms were removed, all you can see is ugly semi-demolished steel/concrete supports.
As for the "terminal", it seems to be all gone, or at least walled-off. The exit from the W, instead of going into the terminal, just goes straight down another flight of stairs right through turnstiles and onto the sidewalk, as if it were some regular elevated station.
They killed Stillwell. It ain't right.
How does the Q get to CI? Does it have to become a W to get to the yard now?
"As for the "terminal", it seems to be all gone, or at least walled-off. The exit from the W, instead of going into the terminal, just goes straight down another flight of stairs right through turnstiles and onto the sidewalk, as if it were some regular elevated station.
They killed Stillwell. It ain't right. "
What utter nonsense. Stop whining, count to 10, and imagine a reborn Stillwell. Most of it is a year away; a little longer and the finishing touches will be put on.
Frankly, the old terminal was a creaking, outdated piece of garbage by the 1990's. Yes, at one time it was elegant, but let's be realistic. It was no longer up to handling the crowds, and if you have any kind of disability, it wasn't very friendly.
Once the new terminal is up you'll wonder why they didn't do that years ago.
>>> It was no longer up to handling the crowds <<<
Which was not such a problem since the crowds were much smaller.
Tom
Sorry, you're right, it'll be nice when it's done, but right now it looks ugly and decapitated.
If you're wondering, I came to that realization after only counting up to 8.
And for the record, it'll be nice in a pretty, R142 kind of way, which I guess is better for most people, but I'm still going to miss the old style Coney Island terminal which I grew up going through.
Old stations are often attractive, and can look great when renovated sympathetically. I can understand nostalgia for the scenes of youth, too. But if you build a brand new station you want it to look modern, not pseudo-old.
Also, it's purpose has changed. When first opened it was meant to funnel millions of people into Coney Island, necessitating those long ramps and spacious mezzanine. Today, it's much more of a transfer point. I've been to Stillwell thousands of times in the past 17 years, but I've only gone there to exit the system a handful of times. 99% of the time, I'm using it to transfer lines.
True, although summertime still brings a lot of folks to the beach and the boardwalk. Still a great place to go, and the subway is the ONLY cool way to get there :0)
True, especially when the Cyclones have a home game.
"Also, it's purpose has changed. When first opened it was meant to funnel millions of people into Coney Island, necessitating those long ramps and spacious mezzanine."
It definitely had echos of the past. When Coney was king. And that wonderful candy place on Stillwell! Probably, Stillwell Avenue has hosted more visitors to the Atlantic Ocean than any other place bordering it, ever. I doubt even England has ever had such an important recreation spot accessable by railroad. I mean, what other beach in the world could boast of having four separate multi-track express trunk railroad lines serving it?
In the summer time back in the 1920-s to 1940's, 2 million people would show up at Coney Island per day. Ever see the beach at these times? Not a square foot uninhabited.
Amen, Ronnie! Apparently, you haven't lost your spite when you moved to Kansas. I think you've gotten more agitated ever since you moved there. I think it must be the quiet and lack of a subway system. Come back to Bayside, Ronnie, we miss you! :D
Anyone know the new layout? Will they retain the elevated overpass connecting all 4 platforms? Will they keep those long ramps?
No, they didn't kill Stillwell ... a life saving transplant is underway.
--Mark
As far as I know, the new station will be completely NEW, nothing like it's old counterpart. Some people are saying that some of the BMT signs will be preserved and put within the station, but I doubt that.
I did see an artist's rendition and it looks modern/contemporary/scary... whatever you want to call it. :)
It looks like those European train terminals. Glass canopy, very open, and it will use solar panels to power up the station. Ooh, futuristic!
"As far as I know, the new station will be completely NEW, nothing like it's old counterpart. Some people are saying that some of the BMT signs will be preserved and put within the station, but I doubt that."
It is perfectly feasible for old signs, or even the entire facade, to be preserved as part of the design of a new building. At Hammersmith in London, where a new shopping centre on top of the tracks has replaced the old station, the historic facade of the old station is incorporated into a wall inside the shopping centre, near where the stairs from the station platforms come up.
I certainly hope Stillwell's old signs will be incorporate somehow - but new signage, easier on the eyes and better lit, will be a gift to those of us with poor vision.
The mosaics that stood at the former entrance onto Surf Ave are being restored and will be part of the new terminal. So is the old sign that indicated Brighton, Culver, etc Lines to Manhattan.
--Mark
I suppose so, but this is the MTA we speak of...anything's possible.
I grew up with the old Stillwell, but from what I see the new Stillwell will be very attractive from almost every angle.
The original facade (with the BMT LINES and BMT round logo) will be incorporated in the front of the new structure, though the entranceway will now be a multi-story building to allow a police substation and other facilities.
Don't know the fate of the wood BRIGHTON/SEA BEACH etc. sign.
I hope they will preserve that old wooden sign....I recall seeing that sign many times when I was a kid, passing through the old Stillwell terminal. CC
Quite awhile ago, I recall reading about a blue signal light that was in use at DeKalb Ave before the re-construction......what purpose was this signal used for? I seem to recall it might have been for a certain type of switch, but I am not sure.
A bottom blue aspect was used on the BMT to indicate a third route.
Or there was a K-Mart nearby.
Sorry. I couldn't resist that! 8-)~
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!! THAT WAS A GOOD ONE!! CC
Before the crossovers north of DeKalb were replaced by the flying junction south of the station in the 1950s (along with the northward extension of the platforms), trains approaching DeKalb from Lawrence St. could go in three directions at the junction: Left to the bypass track, straight ahead to the track leading to the Brighton line, and right to the track leading to the 4th Ave. local track.
The blue light was lit when the alignment was for the bypass track.
-- Ed Sachs
A bottom blue aspect was used on the BMT to indicate a third route
...and that location was the only place it was ever used. The only service to use the switch, AFAIK, was the Culver Express, though it's conceivable the Franklin-Nassau might have used it also.
Good to have that explained...Thanks much....CC
IIRC corectly it might have been used also at B'way-Junction on the J line. There was a choice between service going thru to Jamaica, Canarsie or to ENY Yard.
I believe the tunnel entry to DeKalb was the only example ever.
Can't you still go to Jamaica, Canarsie or the yard now? What's the signal arrangment?
Today a move into a yard track would be signaled with a Y/Y/Y,
but I'm not sure if that was original BMT practice or something
that came over from the BOT/IND.
Only the Culver Express used that blue indication. Green on the bottom of the home signal was for the Brighton, yellow for Fourth Avenue.
Franklin-Nassau expresses came over the Bridge "BMT southbound" from Chambers Street and skipped Myrtle and DeKalb (same as Fourth Avenue Specials from Broad Street to the Bridge--"BMT southbound" from Broad to Chambers and over the Bridge).
I'm curious--was a Franklin-Nassau express leaving Franklin Avenue (or anywhere on the Brighton Line) going "BMT north" or "BMT south"? Since it was going to Manhattan, it should have been "northbound." But at the same time, I would imagine that an express (or local) from Franklin to Coney Island or Brighton Beach would be going "south."
Did the through Franklin-Nassau service change terminal direction at Coney Island?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I don't know, but it's a reasonable assumption that a Franklin-Nassau leaving Franklin Avenue was going south until Stillwell, then considered to be going north. Any other way would have made train orders and such too complicated.
I always through "Franklin-Nassau" was a cool mind-twister for a non-knowledgable railfan. The name is kind of oxymoronic. How Brighton-Nassau or West End-Nassau would run in pretty obvious, but if you didn't know, how would you guess Franklin-Nassau would run? I would imagine some kind of arrangement changing ends at Prospect Park would have to be the number one guess.
My most recent post on Williamsburg Boulevard (my proposal for Broadway) reminded me of the number of Blvds there are in Queens.
Seems that every little alley there is some boulevard.
So I've decided to count. If I've missed one, please inform me:
Queens (nee Hoffman)
Northern
Astoria
Ditmars
Vernon
Junction
Willets Point
College Point (nee Rodman/Lawrence Streets and College Point Causeway)
Woodhaven (nee Trotting Course Lane)
Cross Bay
Rockaway
Sutphin
Parsons
Kissena
Guy R. Brewer (nee New York)
Farmers
Springfield
Baisley
Merrick
Brookville
Hook Creek
Francis Lewis (nee Cross Island)
Bell
Commonwealth
Winchester
Hollis Court
Rockaway Beach
Seagirt
Far Rockaway
Arverne
Rockaway Point
And those that couldn't be here today:
Van Wyck
Horace Harding (nee Nassau)
Yellowstone
Good listings.
Off the top of my head, Powells Cove, Nashville, and Nassau
There still is a Nassau Blvd in Queens? I thought it only appears once the LIE enters Nassau County.
It runs for three blocks in Queens away from the LIE in Douglaston. That was also the name of at least part of Horace Harding Boulevard before it was named after him.
"15. Guy R. Brewer (nee New York)"
Who was Guy R. Brewer ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Guy R. Brewer
Guy R. Brewer Boulevard, Jamaica
When Guy R. Brewer purchased a building on the corner of 117th Avenue and New York Boulevard to house the United Democratic Club, he had no idea that the club would grow to be one of the strongest political headquarters in Queens county.
In 1982, to honor the late State Assemblyman, Mayor Ed Koch signed a bill sponsored by City Council Member Archie Spigner, renaming New York Boulevard "Guy R. Brewer Boulevard."
Peace,
ANDEE
Calling a street a "boulevard" creates a high-class image, that of a wide, tree-shaded promenade lined with elegant mansions. The fact that the "boulevard" may be an ordinary, undistinguished street, well that scarcely matters.
Foch.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? :-)
Lefferts.
Lefferts is one. I wonder how Pig missed it.
Berrian.
Powell's Cove.
And here in Bismarck, North Dakota, our state capitol is on Boulevard Avenue!
: ) Elias
Linden Blvd.
Horace Harding (Still Exists as LIE Frotage Roads)
Well, yes and no. Don't the service road street signs now read "Horace Harding Expressway"?
They do. In many cases, service roads bear the same names as the highways they flank. That section of the Long Island Expressway is also known as the Horace Harding Expressway.
For whatever reason, NYCDOT latched onto the HHE name for its street sign blades even though nobody calls the highway the HHE anymore.
Shore Blvd. (next to Astoria Park)
Also Amstel, Berrian, Breezy Point, Cloverdale, East Hampton, Edgerton, Juniper North & South, Lakeview (nee Lakeview East/Review), Laurel Hill, and Ocean Crest.
Other departed names are Adirondack (Beach 142 St), Bayshore East (Shore Rd), Douglaston (West Dr), Hammels (Beach Channel Dr), Head of Bay (gone), West (now Powells Cove).
And there are the ever-popular paper Boulevards, McKnight (nee Lynxville St) and Tallman.
Don't forget Rockaway Beach & Rockaway Point Blvds.!
Pig got those already
I know. I missed them on the original post. My bad!!!
I know. I missed them on the original post. My bad!!!
There are trees though.
Go to Mapquest, enter POWELLS COVE BLVD in the address line, WHITESTONE as the city and NY as the state (well, duh!). Then click the first thumbnail that appears.
Little Neck BLVD. It runs parallel to the Cross Island Parkway at 28th Avenue in Bayside Gables.
Little Neck BLVD. It runs parallel to the Cross Island Parkway at 28th Avenue in Bayside Gables.
Not to be a scootch here.....the only street in the City of New York that I know of using that designation is Rockaway Freeway, under the ex LIRR trestle in Rockaway Beach.
Little Neck (not to be confused with Little Neck Parkway)
Berrian
Linden, borrowed from Brooklyn
www.forgotten-ny.com
Where precisely does Conduit change from a Boulevard into two parallel Avenues (North and South)?
Somewhere in Queens, certainly.
When it becomes the service roads of the Belt Parkway.
:-) Andrew
I think in Brooklyn. The Queens street signs read South Conduit Avenue and North Conduit Avenue.
I think at the Brooklyn/Queens line.
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
This is more appropriate for Bus Talk, but there is (or maybe was) a special bus stop lane for the Q85 bus (or, earlier, the Q5A) built into the left hand lane by this merge.
I've been on the road as far as Linden Blvd many times, and always remember it as South and North Conduit. That is in Queens. It is only when I drove it all the way to Atlantic that I first saw Conduit Blvd signs. If Hagstrom tells you that it changes at Cross Bay, I wouldn't believe them.
I stand by my statement. Even if I will be proved wrong like the Queens streets thing. If you tell me you've seen a Conduit Blvd sign east of the B-Q border, then I will believe you.
Before the Belt Parkway, it was all Conduit Blvd.
Maybe the A train is the dividing line!
I stand by my earlier post, you are the one who is wrong, wrong, wrong.
223 St at Northern Blvd, when you follow it south between Oakland Lake and Alley Pond Park toward the Queensborough Community College, becomes: Cloverdale Blvd. This road continues past the college and reaches a T intersection with the LIE service road (Horace Harding).
7171-75 are the latest R-142s to hit the TA property tonight.
-Stef
cool
Look for 7141-45/7161-65 to be the first R142 set to hit the 4 line.
Da Beastmaster
Look for 7141-45/7161-65 to be the "OFFICIAL" first R142 set to hit the 4 line.
Da Beastmaster
That set and 7146-55 were supposed to be in service already, which is not the case as 7141-45 and 7161-65 were still burn testing.
-Stef
Ok, so trains have been running for about five months and I have yet to see one set at Penn Station. Something is going on....
all m-7s except for the 7:43 merrick express go to Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn
the reason for this is that they are 6 car trainsets and work best with flatbush's platforms- 6 cars only, and the lines primarily served-far rockaway midday has only 6 cars so they goto that first
where can I find pics of the M7s? CC
Have you try looking for photo's yet?? Have you seen the Units yet?
www.nycrail.com
www.nycsubway.org
http://www.rantpipe.com/LIRR/M7/
Next try to look before asking people to do the work for ya....
All you gotta do is look into the Search Engines, or just go to your local subway websites.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
be nice.....sometimes a little help can go a long way.
The M7 sometimes pass back and forth at jamaica during the weekends, also they are visible at HSF. Wow, if you passed by there recently, they did alot of work especially on track 7, and 8 which at the north end is covered... Do they have special tours at HSF, because I saw a visitor's entrance sign at the stop.. thanks!
'smatter of fact, they do, and we're sponsoring one this Saturday, March 29!
Be at the ticket office at Jamaica (LIRR) Station no later than 10:15 AM (our group will board a train that will be stopping at Hillside Facility -- not all of them do). The cost is $15 -- if paying by check, make it out to New York Division - Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated. You may pay on the day of the trip. Tickets will be distributed that day.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
arrogant little prick. Grow up
"... all m-7s except for the 7:43 merrick express go to Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn ..."
Is that AM or PM ?
I was told there was a late night M-7 set out of Penn every week-day ?
i.e. at almost 11 PM. I was going to try a catch it after the next ERA meeting I attend. Maybe there one AM & one PM ?
how many 7:43 expresses are there TO penn station in the PM????? zero
obviosly its am cause peak west is AM
Hi,
I have put a tentative TA service plan for the re-opening of the north side tracks on my website. You can find it under "latest updates" here:
The Other Side of The Tracks- 3000+ NYC Subway Photos
Beat ya to it, buddy! Thread started here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=465098
Thanks for the scoop! Figured I'd send folks over to your place earlier ... hope all's well in Todd Glickman land. :)
Ah ... Sea Beach Fred must be grinning from ear to ear.
Big surprise (to me) is the flip of the B and D, which makes sense. But it highlights the foolishness of calling branch lines by letters instead of names, as is "the N train will run via the B line in Brooklyn" in announcing GOs and diversions.
The West End was the T, then the B, then the W, to be the B.
Brighton was the Q for the express, then the D, then back to the Q, now the B? But it's always been the Brighton, even when it was the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island.
Most interesting, besides the B/D switch in Brooklyn, is that full time Q Brighton Line service returns to its ancestral home, the BMT Broadway route. Also it becomes a hybrid (express in Manhattan, via the Manny B, then local in Brooklyn). The B/Brighton service to 6th Avenue will be a weekday only service, similar to the BMT's old Brighton Express.
Don't get too attached to this service plan. It's not happening.
Why not?
The B/D swap can't be justified, people will bitch, people with influence. The same reason the original 2001 south-side reroute plan was modified.
The 2001 plan never had to pass thru the public meeting process, as it was defined as a temporary reroute. The TA in that way could do whatever it felt like.
A complete waste of time. The Ta would be better off holding small focus groups with riders not advocates.
In terms of figuring out what is the best service, yes. Unfortunately, what you propose is contrary to New York State law.
What a joke
Reinforcing the points they want the MTA board to hear. That's smart.
"What a joke"
Only if you can do better. When was the last time you communicated with MTA, and how did you go about it?
OK. And what did MTA tell you at that time?
"Anything else I can do?"
Yes. You can follow up from your previous letter, and find out specifically to whom at MTA to send another letter. You can share your letter with the Straphangers Campaign and find out if they agree with you or not. You can contact elected officials in Manhattan and Brooklyn, or you can speak to the transportation staffers in the borough presidents' offices, and write them a letter also. Find out if they agree with you or not. Maybe they have ideas to which you should be listening. If the borough prez or city council member puts together a little task force because his/her constituents are worried about how subway service is going to work in 2004, offer to join it. And always be respectful of the people you contact, even while you assert your own views.
After you talk to somebody by phone, write a letter thanking them for their time with you.
Use postal service or telephone, not email, unless you have a specific person's email and have been told to use it.
You will learn a great deal while you are doing this, and it will help you refine your idea further. Additionally, if you find other people who agree with you, you can support them (and vice versa) and lend yourself greater credibility within MTA.
As for your other suggestions, I wish I could do most of these things, but I'm stuck in a school upstate. I would be able to do most of the things you suggested until the summer.
Thanks for the info...
Then you're entitled to follow up and ask, politely,for those comments. I can assure you that lapse was not on purpose, nothing against you.
"They also stated that they would make their operations planners aware of this proposed plan (I wonder if they did)."
They did. No reason not to. When you follow up, let them know you're interested in their opinions.
"Finally they stated that they were definitely looking into running the V into Brooklyn via Culver Local, as I suggested, but it would take until about 2005 to fix the Bergen interlocking. "
Aha! Why didn't you post this before? A bunch of us were wondering about exactly when the Bergen project would get done. You see, you've learned something important. And it means the TA has been thinking about extending the V into Brooklyn, probably because people like you wrote to them and called them to say they wanted it. It looks like a good shot to happen (but I do wish they'd work faster to fix that interlocking!). So your effort (combined with others) did not go to waste. Good work.
"As for your other suggestions, I wish I could do most of these things, but I'm stuck in a school upstate. I would be able to do most of the things you suggested until the summer."
OK. Keep your priorities straight - school is more important than Subtalk. But, in the meantime, upstate has post offices and stamps, and the internet...
I wish you much success in school.
The law is not silly. The only thing that is silly is a person who whines about a public meeting that he/she declines to attend.
only if you let them. You are free to form your own group, show up at the meeting, and speak. You are also free to write comments for the record.
"A complete waste of time."
Only because you don't know how to use it.
"The Ta would be better off holding small focus groups with riders not advocates."
The TA does do that at various times.
People will bitch about what? The Brighton B will be express. The West End D will be express as well. That's all the riders care about in Brooklyn, they don't care if they call the train the X and a half. As long as it's express and it takes them to work and back.
As one who served on the D when it ran to BB, it's a minor heartbreaker to me strictly from a nostalgic standpoint, but as long as there's penalty time, that's a good thing. Heh. The rerouted D strikes me as a longer run.
Riders will learn to transfer to the D headed to the game at some location between Grand and 59th Street. On the way back from night games the transfer will be more precise -- they'll either have to change for the Q at 34th, DeKalb (likely) or Atlantic Ave., or will have the other option of taking the 4 downtown to Union Square or Atlantic Ave. and changing for the Q there.
It's a slight inconvience for Yankee fans, but it does provide increased service overall for the B Division, and is in no way, shape or form anyhwere near as complicated a shift as the opening of Chrystie St. was. If Brooklyn riders could survive that, they can cope with the swap of the Sixth Ave. lines.
When I was growing up in Manhattan, my home station for going to Yankee Stadium with 23rd St. and Park on the 6, with a transfer to the 4 at Grand Central. But we could also walk three blocks west to Sixth Ave. and take the D for a one-seat ride to the Stadium. That changed with the opening of the Chyrstie connection and the express tracks between West 4th and 34th St., but we adjusted to having to transfer at 34th St. to the D after taking the F (or the B local or the KK) at 23rd.
Yankee fans on the Brighton line can make the same adjustment, and besides, when you think about the weeknight games at the Stadium, moving the B to the Brighton line does give riders there a one-seat ride to the Bronx, since if you leave for the game during PM rush, the uptown D is going to bypass 161st St. and you're going to have to switch to the B anyway (yeah, they do have to ride local 59th-145th, but if Monday-Friday ticket holders from South-Central Brooklyn really don't want to change trains, they'll sit through all the local stops).
Yeh I will just stop going to the games after work and drive in during the weekends. The nearly 2 hour ride(west side local, brighton local) on one train is long enough. Waiting for a transfer to another train at nearly 11 o'clock in the evening with 12 min headways. I can do without.
I went to one game last season. Took the 4 to west 4th and changed for the Q. Took over 2 1/2 hours to get home thank to the MTA's insistance on running full length trains at long headways after 10 pm. With direct D service I just get on the train and go to sleep. Unfortunitly they sometimes put yankee specials on the route and conviently forget to change the roll signs to indicate that it is not going through to Brooklyn.
I think during the weeknights Yankee games, the D is supposed to be local in the Bx.
Da Beastmaster
Not that I'm advocating the proposed plan, but these reasons don't hold water. A West End D train would still get Bronx riders to COney Island (although it would not be as ideal as the Brighton line, where you could get off at Brighton Beach, Ocean Parkway or W8th St, depending where on the beach you want to go). Also, the claim that a West End run is slower than a Brighton local run is absurd. It takes 35 minutes to get from Atlantic to CI via Brighton local, 32 from Pacific to CI via West End (exp).
There is no new plan that won't upset lots of people with influence.
Where are you going to send the West End on weekends? You can't send it to Queensbridge anymore. Anywhere you send it, people with influence will be pissed. IIRC you want to send it to Astoria. Well, the Asian community in Sunset Park wants it to go to Grand St. 7 days a week and the Sea Beach riders certainly don't want the West End going to Astoria so that the Sea Beach is a shuttle. The Greenpoint community certainly doesn't want to see it on Queens Blvd. The beancounters won't let it go to 145th in addition to a Brighton/Concourse line.
Whatever you do, people with loud voices will complain at length.
TRANSIT PROJECT UPDATE
Posted by Xtrainexp. on Mon Mar 24 14:24:13 2003
TRANSIT PROJECT UPDATE
Posted by Xtrainexp. on Mon Mar 24 10:59:50 2003
Anybody remember this thread?
"I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metoropolitan areas atlases. Suffice to say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and I have used all the letters, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routings, names of lines and route markers, leave your repsonses/questions here and I'll answer them as thoroughly as I can."
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be very interested in reading this when it comes out!
The next gathering of SubTalkers at the Shore Line Trolley Museum, East Haven, Conn is scheduled for Sunday March 30, starting at 9:30 AM.
It will be IRT day with Lo-V 5466 as the featured car. 3662, an IRT Hi-V will also make a trip to Short Beach that day.
This SubTalk gathering is being hosted by Branford's 3/4 Toners and is not Museum Sponsored. It a gathering of the gang for a day of fun and helps boost interest and membership in the museum. Bring your friends, they do not have to be SubTalkers. Bring your cameras & videos.
You must have a membership in BERA to participate. All attendees offset the costs of operating this charter. Handle time will be allocated to all participants with a regular or higher membership class.
If you are not a member of BERA, go to bera.org for a membership application, print out and bring with you on March 30. All current members, please bring your membership card.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was brought to my attention that the following paragraph may be
misleading to new members joining BERA.
>>>"All attendees offset the costs of operating this charter. Handle time will be allocated to all participants with a regular or higher membership class."<<<
If you are joining BERA as a new member as of February 15, 2003, your
charter fess are included with the membership. It is not membership plus charter fee.
ALL current members of BERA, are obliged to
contribute towards the cost of the charter.
For further information contact John Sikorski ~ Sparky trolley687@aol.com
or [718] 389-0979.
Bring your friends, they do not have to be SubTalkers....
You must have a membership in BERA to participate.
1 "Participate"..... in what? IRT Charter Handle time or just plain ridership?
2 Given the terms above, would a non-Subtalk non-BERA-member be eligible to even board the cars??
(sorta defeats the purpose of "bring your friends" if solely for the purpose of pimping membership to them)
ALL current members of BERA, are obliged to
contribute towards the cost of the charter.
1 ....EVEN if they are not attending BERA foamerhandlemania??
How about revising this passage to:
ALL current members of BERA --ATTENDING THIS
EVENT, are obliGATED to contribute towards the cost of this charter--.
1SF9
Dept. of Copy Revision
Lets say this another way:
The IRT cars are being "chartered", also the museum is "closed" until April when it is open on Sundays, then in May Saturdays & Sundays.
Our pilot, aka Lou from Brooklyn, is NOT permitted to give operating lessons if the "public" is on-board. You may recall when you were affored that provledge that it happend after hours. This is an insurance thing. With everybody on-board being a "member" this solves that problem.
What Spark ment by guests/friends was that they could join at the "Associate" level. It's half the "Regular" member fee. They get many of the benifits of a Regular member, but not the privledge of operating our cars, even with a pilot.
The whole point of this charter is to entice folks to join the museum.
The crew & staff kicks in enough to cover the cost of the charter, so for the museum it's a win win, and the fact that the folks on board are going to have a enjoyable time is just icing on the cake. A couple of the new members on this trip are already taking the trolley operating course. That's the road I took after a year as a Associate Member.
I'm a believer in finding ways for the various equipment at the museum to help pay their way, e.g. I would like to see us find a way to haul folks around in the MOW stuff. Talk about "breezers", can you see a bunch of folks sitting on our crane ? Will it happen, maybe not, but it would be cool.
Well, I hope this makes it a little clearer.
Mr t
There's no hidden factor, we have been up front that we are soliciting
membership for the museum. For all the we should, we could ...
it's time to put it where your verbiage is, let's see the green.
All current members, who participate in the charter as workers a\o
riders are indebted to cover the costs. You want to play with the
toys, you have to pay the associated costs. It's not an exclusive
club for a few select members. Just bring the dead presidents.
(20 Washingtons, 10 Franklins, 4 Lincolns, 2 Hamiltons or 1 Jackson].
8-) ~ Sparky
Life membership and then some, eh? Or will 10 Jeffersons work? (I'll probably give you 20 Sacagaweas, just to be obstinate.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not, we did it with the snow plow. Backwards, even :).
Would people come just to ride it ... well we could try it a could of time to see if it generates traffic. Others may have better ideas.
Thurston
Dougie
All clear, here.
I just heard that HUDSON tower (built 1911 as part of the original Penn Station project) will be closing in the next 3 months and its interlocking split into 2 interlockings. The fate of its Amber position lights, Pneumatic switches and interlocked connection to PATH is uncertain. Its duties will suposidly move to DOCK. If this is true it really is a great loss. HUDSON is the last of the original New York Hudson River Tunel and Terminal Railroad (or something like that) towers still in operation.
So if you are traveling PATH or the NEC get your pictures now. Given Amtrak history is it doubtful that the tower will be demolished.
Man..MORE sad news on the railroad front! HUDSON tower was built (along with a demolished counterpart) as part of the old Manhattan Transfer complex in the Jersey Meadows; it was a transfer point built without any access to local streets....it was a very busy transfer point between mainline long distance and commuter trains on the Pennsy to and from Penn Station (and the Exhange Pl. ferry terminal in Jersey City), and The Hudson Tubes (PATH). Was also were Pennsy electric engines (DD-1s) were exchanged for steam power for westward runs(vica-versa on eastbound runs)The transfer closed in 1937, when the new Newark Penn Station was built. The other tower at Manhattan Transfer was demolished, and HUDSON tower is the sole reminder surviving today. Best, CC
HUDSON was originally built as N cabin (or S cabin, I don't have my book w/ me).
Right...I think it was N.....read about in in "RAILS UNDER THE MIGHTY HUDSON" by B Cudahy.
I know a number of the old IND-style interlockers (such as the one at Canal St. on the 8th Ave line) are still in use. What does the future hold for them? How long before these venerable electro-pneumatic relics are replaced with a master "Mission Control" ultra high-tech setup?
Wait... I'm confused. Doesn't the Flushing line have pnumatic-controls or the like? I believe they're being replaced by electric controls as well. I need help.
That was news to me....didn't know that, but does not surprise me. I guess all the old relics of the subway's past are going the way of the T-Rex.....
Most IND interlocking machines were supplied by GRS and are not electro-pneumatic. Here is the list of active towers on the NYCS courtesy www.nycrail.com.
Master Towers (and their satellites)
as well as Interlocking Towers
The A Division (former IRT)
The towers in the A Division are all considered to be Master Towers
(except for those noted as satellites and those that only control a yard)
240 St Tower - located in the yard
- controls from 242 St south to the switches south of 103 St that govern
the moves into and out of M Track. Also controls both 240 Yard and 137
Yard.
137 St Satellite - located at north end
of northbound platform - can control the area both north and south of 137
St.
239 St Yard - controls only the
yard and yard leads. I am not sure if this will be taken over by Unionport,
but I doubt it.
Unionport Master
Tower - located in Unionport Yard - currently controls the mainline
switches south of 219 St and the mainline switches between 238 St and 241
St (formerly controlled by 239 St Mainline) and the switches in Unionport
Yard (east of the mainline). Eventually it will control from south
of Jackson Ave to White Plains and Dyre Ave.
E.180 Tower
- located between 3 Track and M Track just north of the station - controls
from south of Jackson Ave to south of Bronx Park East, as well as the entire
Dyre Ave line. Also controls the yard at E.180 St (west of the mainline).
Will eventually be replaced by Unionport Tower.
Freeman St Satellite - located at north
end of southbound platform - can control the area just north of Freeman
St.
205 St Tower - located in Mosholu
Yard - controls the Jerome Ave line from Woodlawn to north of 167 St, as
well as Mosholu Yard.
Westchester Master Tower -located
in Westchester Yard - controls the Pelham line from Pelham Bay Park to
just south of 3rd Ave/138 St, as well as Westchester Yard.
Mott Ave Tower
- located on the mezzanine level between the upper (4) and lower (2/5)
levels - controls from north of 149St/Grand Concourse on both levels
to south of 138 St on the Lexington Ave line and south of the station on
the White Plains line.
Lenox Tower - located at south end
of 148 St station - Controls from south of 110 St/ Lenox Ave to Lenox Terminal,
as well as Lenox Yard.
Times Square Mainline - located
on the mezzanine level at the south end of the station - Controls Broadway
from north of 96 St to north of Chambers St. 96
St Satellite - located at north end of station, next to southbound
fare control area - can control the 96 St interlocking.
Grand Central - located between
3 Track and 4 track south of the station - controls from north of 125 St
to south of Brooklyn Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge Loop and Yard, as well as
1 Track and 3 Track of the Shuttle.
125 St Satellite - can control north and
south of 125 St
Brooklyn Bridge Satellite - can control
loop and yard.
Nevins Tower
- located between 2 and 3 Track - Controls from south of Rector St and
south of both Wall Sts to north of Atlantic Ave.
Bowling Green Satellite - can control
the crossover between 1 & 4 Tracks south of Rector St, the diamond
crossover between Wall St and Bowling Green and both the inner and outer
loop at South Ferry.
Utica Tower
- located on mezzanine outside fare control at south end of station
- Controls from south of Eastern Parkway to Flatbush Ave and Utica
Ave. Flatbush Ave usually controls the
interlocking just north of the station.
Livonia Tower - located in Livonia
Yard - Controls from north of Junius St to New Lots Station and Livonia
Yard.
Times Square Queens - located at
north end of Flushing Line platform - Controls from Times Square to north
of Hunters Point Ave.
Queenboro Master - located south
of station - Controls IRT/BMT crossover (plus a lot of B div)
111 St - located south of 111 St
- controls from Main St to south of 33rd St.
Corona Yard - located in the yard
- controls all of Corona Yard and the yard leads.
B Division - (former BMT and IND)
There are a handful of Master Towers in the B Division, but this is
still the home of the single Interlocking Tower.
Master Towers
207 St Master Tower - located in
the yard - Controls from south of 168 St to 207 St Station; 207 Yard
leads north of Dyckman St and 174 St Yard.
168 St Satellite - can control 174 St
Yard and 168 St interlocking.
59 Master
- located north of northbound platform at 59 St - controls from north of
145 St to south of 59 St.
DeKalb Master
Tower - located on mezzanine behind token booth - Controls Lawrence
St interlocking on B'way local line; Gold St interlocking (between DeKalb
and the Manhattan Bridge Portals; DeKalb Ave to north of Pacific
St on Fourth Ave and to south of Prospect Park on the Brighton line, as
well as all of the Franklin Shuttle. Also has control of the wheel detectors
on both sides of the bridge.
Joe Murphy Master Tower
- located in 36 St/38 St Yard - Controls Fourth Av Line from north of 36
St to 95 St; West End line from 36 St to Ninth Ave, including connection
to NYCHRR and 36 St/38 St Yard; Sea Beach interlocking at Sixth Ave.
Stillwell Tower
(Tower B) - located in Coney Island Yard - Controls Stillwell Yard
and Coney Island Yard, but not Culver (City, Avenue X) Yard; Sea Beach
line from Stillwell to north of Kings Highway; Brighton line from Stillwell
to south of Kings Highway; Culver interlocking south of West 8th St (part
of Stillwell Station - allows choice of pocket). When signal upgrade is
complete, will also control West End from Stillwell to 62nd St (possibly
with a satellite at Bay Parkway).
City Hall
Tower - located at north end of station - Controls the Broadway
BMT line from Lexington Ave/59 St to the Nassau St cut in the Montague
tubes, as well as the mainline switches south of Broad St.
57/7 Satellite -located at south end of
southbound platform - can operate interlockings north and south of station.
This satellite is active for the duration of Q termation at 57/7.
Essex Tower-
located at Essex St opposite side of J1 track from platform (next to old
trolley terminal) - Controls Nassau St line from the Brooklyn side of the
Williamsburg Bridge (wrong-rail blind trips and normal direction wheel
detectors) to north of Broad St; the interlocking south of Broad St between
R3 and R4 Tracks (this might be controlled by City Hall - the schematic
is kind of vague); the Sixth Ave line from north of B'way/Lafayette to
south of Delancey St.
East New York Master Tower
- located in east New York Yard - Controls the Jamaica line from
Marcy Ave to Jamaica Center (lower level); the Myrtle Ave line from Myrtle
to Metropolitan Ave; the Canarsie line from south of Broadway Junction
to north of Livonia Ave; East New York yard leads; the Linden Yard lead
south of Livonia Ave and the switch between the lead from the Livonia Ave
el and the Canarsie lead.
Parsons/Archer Satellite normally controls
from north of 121 St to Jamaica Center.
QueensboroMaster
Tower- located south of the station on
the structure - Currently controls the IRT/BMT crossover; the Astoria line
from the 11 St cut to Ditmars Blvd; the 63rd St Connector from south of
Lexington Ave/63 St to 36 St, including all entrances to D5 Track; and
Crosstown line south of Court Square. When completed, this fully computerized
Tower will control all of the above plus - the Crosstown line from south
of Bedford/Nostrand to Queens Plaza; the Queens Blvd line from south of
Ely Ave to north of Roosevelt Ave (possibly farther, I don't remember);
the entire length of the Flushing line. Ina ll actuality, the model board
shows all of this trackage, but since the controls are all computerized,
it's very hard to tell the extent of control.
21 St Satellite - can control the area
from north of 21 St to south of Lexington Ave/63 St
Liberty Junction - located on the
structure between K1 and F4 Tracks - controls from Liberty Junction to
both Lefferts Blvd and Broad Channel.
Lefferts Satellite - located at the north
end of the platform - controls Lefferts Terminal
Howard Beach Satellite - located behind
the station wall of the northbound platform - can control the area north
and south of the station.
Bedford Park Master Tower - to be
located on mezzanine level at south end of station - this contract has
just been let, so the tower itself doesn't exist yet although some preliminary
work has been done at the station. When completed it will control the Concourse
Line from 205 St to south of 161 St, putting six interlocking towers out
of business.
Interlocking Towers
Unless otherwise noted, these towers control only the interlocking closest
to their location.
Canarsie Line
8th Ave/14 St - at south end of platform
in Dispatcher's Office
3rd Ave/14 St - at north end of northbound
platform
Bedford Ave - at south end of platform
Myrtle Ave - at south end of platform
Rockaway Pkway - at north end of platform
- controls from south of 105 St to terminal and yard leads
Crosstown Line
Bedford/Nostrand - north of northbound
platform on opposite side of E2 Track
Nassau Ave - north end of northbound platform
These will be taken over by Queensboro Master when signal upgrade is
complete.
West End Line
62nd St - south end of northbound platform
Bay Parkway
- south end of northbound platform
Tower D (Bay 50th) - located behind northbound
platform wall - controls all switches on either side of Bay 50th St station
and the switch on the leads closest to the tower
These three towers wil be taken over by Stillwell Master when signal
upgrade is complete.
Culver Line
Tower C - located in CI Yard between southbound
mainline and yard lead - controls Ave X, yard leads and Culver Yard.
Kings Highway - located at south end of
southbound platform
Church Ave - located at south end of southbound
platform - controls from south of Church to south of Ditmas and Church
Ave Yard
4th Ave -
at north end of northbound platform
Bergen Street
- at north end of upper level northbound platform
Jay St -
at north end of northbound platform
York St - south of south end of platform
6th Ave Line
5th Ave -
south end of southbound (upper level) platform - controls split/merge between
6th Ave and 8th Ave service and diamond crossover north of Lexington Ave
50 St (Rockefeller Center) - at north
end of northbound platform - controls Rock Center and diamond crossover
south of 57 St. This tower is no longer manned, resulting in the wonderful
"What you punch is what you get" admonition to Train Operators. Any wrong
line-ups here are solely on the TO.
34 St/6 Ave - located north of northbound
platform
W. 4th St -
at south end of southbound lower level platform - controls all switches
north and south of the station.
Concourse Line
205 St - at south end of platform
Bedford Park - at south end of southbound
platform
Fordham Rd - at south end of southbound
platform
Tremont Ave - at south end of southbound
platform
167 St - north of southbound platform
161 St - at south end of southbound platform
Queens Boulevard
Line
179 St - north end of northbound platform
- controls from north of 169 to terminal and relay tracks
Parsons Blvd - north end of northbound
platform
Parsons/Archer
- north of station on lower level -controls both P/A interlockings as well
as Jamaica/Van Wyck and Van Wyck Blvd. Lower level interlocking can be
remotely operated by ENY Master
Union Turnpike
- north end of northbound platform - controls north and south of station
as well as the yard lead up to Jamaica Yard portal
Continental
Ave - north end
of northbound platform - controls north and south of station as well as
the relay tracks and yard lead up to Jamaica Yard portal
Roosevelt
Ave - north end of northbound platform
Queens Plaza
- north end of northbound platform - controls north and south of station,
11 St cut and Ely Ave
These last two will be taken over by Queensboro Master when signal
upgrade is complete.
8th Ave Line
World Trade Center - north end of platform
Chambers St (8th Ave) - north end of platform
Canal St - south end of southbound platform
30 St/8th Ave - located south of 34 St
on the southbound side near the crossover between A1 and A3 Tracks
42 St/8 Ave - I admit to confusion on
this one. The schematic shows two towers - one north of the northbound
platform and one south of the southbound platform. I think that the northern
one, which is manned, controls all switches north of the station, while
the southern one controls the merge of the lower level track onto the mainline.
Fulton St/ Rockaways Line
Court St (Museum) - north end of platform
Hoyt St - south end of the abandoned southbound
platform
Lafayette Ave - south end of southbound
platform
Utica Ave - south end of southbound platform
Broadway/ENY - south end of southbound
platform
Euclid Ave - south end of southbound platform
- controls north and south of station as well as the first diamond crossover
on A5/A6 yard leads (used for relays)
Pitkin Yard - located in the yard - controls
the yard, yard leads and mainline from north of Grant Ave to north of 88
St
Rockaway Park - located at north end of
platform - controls Rockaway Park Yard and Hammels Wye, as well as the
approaches to the South Channel Swing Bridge. Hammels
Wye Satellite - located between F4 and F3A Tracks - can control
all interlockings associated with the Wye.
Mott Ave (Far Rockaway) - at north end
of platform
Yards
207 Yard - controlled by Tower A (south end of yard) and Tower B (north-west
corner)
Concourse Yard - controlled from Tower located in Yard
Fresh Pond Yard - controls yard leads and Metropolitan Ave
All other yards not mentioned somewhere above are hand-throw yards
and are NOT controlled by a tower.
Notes
All of these single interlocking towers cannot necessarily be seen
from the platform, eve though they are listed as being at the end of a
platform. They are also not necessarily manned 24/7.
The model boards at the master towers and the terminal Dispatchers
are capable of "seeing" a larger area than they actually control.
Sometime in the future, we will see more Master Towers springing up.
My guesses for some of them:
Canarsie line Master Tower - will control the entire length of the
Canarsie Line - will be made necessary for CBTC operation.
Fulton St Master Tower - to control the Fulton St line from Hoyt/Schermerhorn
to north of 88 St.
Stillwell Master Expansion - to control the Culver line from Kings
Highway to Stillwell Ave.
Jay St Master - to control from Church Ave/Culver to York St.
Jamaica Master - to control from 179 to the eastern end of Queensboro
Master.
Queensboro Master Expansion - to control from 5th Ave to Ely Ave.
59 Master Expansion - to control from 30 St/ 8th Ave to 59 St and to
control Rockefeller Center to 59 St.
West 4 St Master - to control from 34/6 to W. 4 St and W.4 St to Chambers
St /WTC
THANKS MUCH!!! WOW!! WHAT INFO!!!!!! CC
42/8 South no longer esists, or so I was told by the towerman at 42/8 north.
Most IND interlocking machines were supplied by GRS and are not electro-pneumatic.
I wouldn't say that. Overall the IND had a fairly even split
between US&S and GRS, because of competitive bid requirements.
In contrast, the BMT was almost exclusively GRS (with some Federal
and Hall thrown in early on) and the IRT US&S.
All I know is if they put up a GRS for auction it'll be in my living room. :)
I have seen many pictures of the interiors of BMT Standards over the years, and I rode them many times as a kid in the early and mid 60s. But, I have noticed in some interior photos there are overhead bars for standees (like the Triplex units), and other Standards had the traditional straphangers. Did certain orders of Standards come direct from the bulder with straps? Or were they later added in-house?
CC, check out the thread when I asked the exact same thing back in January:http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=436294
Here is a picture from the 1918 BRT Monthly showing straps being repaired for the subway cars - the only subway cars were the Standards back then.
Thanks! Wish I had all those old BMT straps in my collection!! CC
The next "March of Dimes" excursions will occur in June. Saturdays
will be 'A' Division trips with the Transit Museums R-12\R-15\R-17 &
a R\33S. Sundays will be 'B' Division excursions with a consist of
three R1\9.
The Transit Museum has given the okeydoke for Division 'C' to use the
museum cars for the excursions on June 7 & 8 also June 28 & 29.
Seating will be limited due to the short consists. Mark your Calendars.
Tentative departures are: Grand Central for 'A' Divison Saturdays. 59th Street~Columbus Circle a\o Chambers Street for 'B' Division Sundays.
More details as received, itinerary subject to change by GO on the
dates of excursions. The Project Manager conjectured all trips will be different.
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-I may be able to recreat my youth and ride a 180' consist or arnines on the (GG) on a June Sunday in 03.
Operable museum R-types? Isn't it a little early for April Fools? :-)
Dave,
It's not an "April Fools Joke". I received a heads-up call from the
Project Manager who has run all the previous "March of Dimes" excursions.
The cars to be used are the cars in the Museum at Court Street.
All cars are to be removed for "Spit & Polishing" prior
to the reopening of the Museum this summer.
The following is personal conjecture?
Will the "Transit Museum" reopen on July 4, 2003? The Museums first
day for the public was July 4, 1976. Make's you wonder.
Also since this will be a 3 car arnine set for Sundays. R-1 #100,
R-4 #484 & R-7A #1575. I was told it will only be a 3 car set.
Aren't these three normally on display at Court Street. They will
be serviced and operated from 207th Street. Note, that this set
does not consist of any arnines that are at CI, owned by RPC.
The 'A' Division train will be R-12 #5760, R-15 #6239, R-17 #6609
and an R-33S. The train will be serviced at Corona. Also, you'll
note that it will be a R-33S (Redbird).
Dave, if you check the archives from last year, as to who was the first
to post on this board, that there would be a Type D\Steplecab
excursion in September, 2002? Did it happen????????
8-) ~ Sparky
You've answered my question about the R-1/9s. That's great!
The R-33 single in question, you mean to say will be 9306 in original WF Paint.
Wall has a few tricks up his sleeve!
-Stef
>>>"The R-33 single in question, you mean to say will be 9306 in original WF Paint."<<<
Stef, I received the data via "Voice Mail" & was fortunate enough
to reach the source via landline and we spoke briefly. I was told
the SMEE Train would be the R\12, R\15, R\17 & a R33S,
not expressly 9306 from the museum. That's was the scope I received. >GG<
More details to follow, ERA/BERA members will receive a mailing.
8-) ~ Sparky
> there would be a Type D\Steplecab excursion in September, 2002?
> Did it happen????????
Sure but it's not fair to compare; the D-Types have been in service for a long time. And as far as the steeplecab (I wasn't on that trip) did it actually PULL anything? or was it being pushed by the D-types? Or did both the train and the loco both run under their own power?
The museum R types haven't moved under their own power as far as I know in many years. To hear they will be ready to do so by June is quite a surprise!
They have motors and have been 'tripped out', so they are in RTR* condition...
The possible fourth R-9 is kinda-sorta in RTR condition.
*Ready-to-Roll
If anyone is interested -- the 'fourth' R-9 on the trip will be heypaul's R-9 affixed to a NYCT flatcar....Happy EARLY April Fool's Day!!! Hahahaha!
wayne
You had to take the trucks off those to get the motors dropped.
Still glad to hear it - nothing would please me more than cranking up a ten car consist of Arnines somewhere some day. One is nice of course, but ten is merrier.
I believe that was from "RPC" spares vs. TA.
Let's get a ten car train fixed up!!!!!!
The cars are being prepared by TA forces. If you read the fine
print in the trip notice they reserve the right to substitute
equipment (i.e. D types again) in case these cars don't make it.
However, unlike the D types or Lo-Vs, there are enough retired
old-timers around who actually still remember how to fix R9s
or early SMEE cars.
1. could 103,381,923,925,1000,1300,or 1802 run in the R1-9 train?
2. could there be an R10/R16/R30 trip in the future?
3. could a Revenue collection R21, or a R26,29,33ml pair be included in the SMEE IRT train?
8-) ~ Sparky
What's more fun for Railfans then Nostalgia Excursions and supporting
a cause together. It's a WIN\WIN!!!! >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
You got that right!
--Mark
No April Fools Mr. Webmaster: museum car 100, 1575 and (the other one # escapes me) ....also there could be a FOURTH R-9 in the mix (shouldn't kept my mouth shut!) :)
What?!?
I've been suggesting the 4 IRT Cars be used together as a Museum Train for the longest time! While I was a Docent, I had mentioned that to the Curator some years ago, who liked the idea, but nothing ever came of it. I'll try to be on one of those two IRT excursions if possible, but it'll be great to see these at the Railfan (Apartment) Window, or while I'm at work on the road.
The R-1/9 excusrion would be equally interesting. 3 Car Consist You say? I wonder what it would take to get 100, 484, and 1575 on the road? Will it be the Transit Museum's Cars or RPC's on the road?
Whoa! SMEE CAR DELIGHT! Stop the presses everyone!
-Stef
This is going to be a very good year for Railfans:
- March of Dimes = June 8th & 9th + June 28th & 29th
- Transit Museum will probally roll out the D Types, or maybe something else, we can always wish for that.
- Branford will be having rt week-ends in May, June, July & August (just one car, twice a day vs. "Autumn in NY ... we're trying "something completely different"). AND guess what the June date of the 21st & 22nd doesn't conflick with the March of Dimes trip ... you fans got lucky indeed !
- So now what are our friends at the ERA going to do ? I'm sure they'll think of something too.
I'm going to start saving my lunch money as of TODAY.
Me too, me too! I am FOAMING at the mouth like a Rabid Dog. Woof!
-Stef
How dare you ask such questions on a public forum about a BERA Trustee
and Director Member, who by coincidence, is the Project Manager for
the "March Of Dimes" Excursions. You accusing the members of BERA
of collusion? Nah, we honest as $2 Subway Tokens. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Excellent!
I have only one suggestion, if it's not too late: run the A Division excursions on two consecutive days and the B Division excursions on two consecutive days. That way, anyone who has standing commitments on either Saturday or Sunday can still experience whichever ride they prefer, or even both.
I'd be inclined to go to both, and I definitely want to ride the IRT cars, but I can't attend on Saturday, ever.
S.O.L.
Sucks to be you
OK, I'm drifting off topic, but can we please show some respect
for each others' beliefs? Some people can't participate in Saturday
trips for religious (i.e. Sabbath observance) reasons.
Why is everyone being so mean? Totally uncalled for.
I think a better suggestion is to run the A Division trip on Saturday and the B Division trip on Sunday the first weekend, and then reverse it the second weekend. That way people who "come in for the weekend" can go on two different trips over the weekend.
---Brian
Brian,
I concur with you. About reversing the A & B division trips for the
second weekend and have forwarded the suggestion to the "Project
Manager" to see if it is feasible. This would be more accomodating
to all. Religious Observers [Saturday a\o Sunday] would have the
option of an A a\o B division excursion, as well as a weekender.
8-) ~ Sparky
---Brian
>>>Sparky:
I may be swapping the last two trips, with the SMEEs on Sunday and the R1/9s on Saturday for the 28th and 29th. Also, true to form, the flyer has the right dates on top in the text, but has June 27 and 28 on the coupon. Thus the opportunity to change dates.
If you want to put it on subtalk that we will swap the last two trips around to accomodate religious concerns, feel free.<<<
'Nough said,
8-) ~ Sparky
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
-Stef
Seriously, if the train is departng from the GCT shuttle track, I would expect to see the train resting at Westchester Yard prior to the excursion.
I am contemplating being on one of the two IRT excursions in June. I may lean on the 2nd one. Can't miss this for the world! Even if I'm not on it, I'm sure it'll pass my apartment window...
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo | Lyrics | www.railfanwindow.com
I ll be there. How much are the tickets?
So far, this is all the information that has been given, was the
dates and equipment assignments [tentative]. As soon as I receive
the details, they will be posted.
8-) ~ Sparky
The "March of Dimes" excursions in June tickets will be.
$35 Adults, $20 Children. Additional $5 per tickets
Day of Excursion if available.
They have not released the mailing address for tickets yet.
As soon as available will post.
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Attaboy, Sparky! Thanks for passing this on. I must free my schedule for those weekends!! Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy ......
--Mark
Repeat after me, there will be no hogging of the railfan window :-)
I concur, while ROTFLMFAO.
8-) ~ Sparky
Larry, RedbirdR33
Don't mind me if I don't get to the rest until tomorrow, ending a 30 hour day and gotta get out of here before I become a vehicular statistic. Moo!
There is a NYC subway rule that prohibits performing wedding ceremonies on a train. I wonder if the same holds true for conducting a religious service...
-Stef
From the Branford Bible, the Rule Book for Operations:
Rule G: Members must not report for duty while under the influence of
alchohol or narcotic substances, nor may they use or carry
such while on duty. Users of illegal substances must abstain
entirely from duty. Violation of this rule shall be cause for
immediate suspension.
John Sikorski
BERA Dispatcher/Instructor
SOME day, maybe we can arrange a "booze cruise charter" at Branford. No handle time of course for the imebriated, but it'd be a hoot to dispense beer from a tap with a brake handle on top. :)
So how much mooing do you do after having a few brewskies?:)
Simply enough rule, no?
--Mark
Actually, I hope to do what I did on the steeplecab trip - stand in the back near an open SIDE window and video the train as it's travelling along its route, most certainly along curves, at least above ground. But if we're travelling the Crosstown Line, all bets are off (I'll just shoot the video over Sparky's shoulder :)
--Mark
Since I was out of state on a previous commitment, and Dave was on a
previous engagement, he asked a question about the Steeple Car Excursion.
You would have the PROOF on video. Did #6 tow the D-types or was it pulled
by them? Did #6 do a solo photo runby? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) Sparky
--Mark
After looking at the comments on the board, I don't think that there's a snowball's chance in hell of the stormdoor not being hogged!
I would bet that it will be quite a job to squeeze into that head car.
Chip
I dunno ... there's something that just strikes me as inherently wrong about having to take your eyes off the iron to see how you're doing to glance at a pinball machine that's about as accurate as one.
But no, saluting the zebra would have been a REALLY dumb idea on arnines and similarly controlled equipment.
--Mark
---Brian
A Fantastic Fantasy:
Suppose that the (E) Train was extended from Jamaica Center south along Merrick Boulevard and then South along Brookville Boulevard and Francis Lewis Boulevard to Green Acres Shopping Center
OK.... So Far So Good!
Now, suppose that the (C) train was sent via Rutgers to Kings Highway (Culver) Express; and that the (V) would terminate at Chambers Street.
OK.... Again, No Problem.
Now the (E) will Join the (A) in the Cranberry Tunnel, Lets make the (A) Local (for Now) and the (E) will run express to Euclid Avenue, and then follows Pitkin Avenue past 76th Street, and then past Cross Bay Boulevard and then via Linden Boulevard to the Nassau County Lion, and then South along Brookville Boulevard (can you see where this is headded?) and Francis Lewis Boulevard to the Green Acres Shopping Center!
SO! Confusion!
We now have the (E) 8th Avenue Express from Green Acres to Green Acres!
The Train goes both North And South from Green Acres to well, Green Acres!
So the Sign says:
(E) 8th Avenue Express
<- (E) To 8th Avenue via Lefferts Boulevard and Fulton Street
-> (E) To 8th Avenue via Merrick Boulevard and Queens Boulevard
And just how many Round Trips can the Crew make on this route!
Do I have anyone bidding on *this* pick!
: ) Elias (with too much time on my hands!)
There are two far simpler versions of this.
1. Send the E to Houston St., Chrystie St connector, WB, to Jamaica. Now you have an E from Parsons/Archer to Parsons Archer. No construction required.
2. Do some minor construction that allows the G to connect to the A/C tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and go through the Cranberry Tunnel.
Send the V straight down 6th Ave to the Cranberry and merge it with the G.
Now you can have the V going from Continental to Continental, with only minor new construction needed.
If you reconstruct the Far Rockaway loop (Mott Ave. TA to Mott Ave. LIRR), you can run the southbound (E) down Fulton, along the Rockaway Freeway, up the Far Rockaway branch, -past- Green Acres on the Atlantic Branch, terminating at "Sutphin Upper." Now you have the (E) from Parsons/Archer to Sutphin. And on different levels yet. In fact, the "Upper (E)" can continue on the Main Line, into Penn Station, and north to Albany. You can even run two (E)'s daily to Montreal.
MAN! What a subway scenario! You had my head spinning! You certainly did your homework!! Best, CC
However, just think of how many more metal detectors they would have to install at the Sunrise Cinemas if a subway went there (and back)!
just think of how many more metal detectors they would have to install at the Sunrise Cinemas
They use metal detectors? In a Cinema?
How anal!
>>>: ) Elias (with too much time on my hands!) <<<
Obviously...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
As someone would put it
"Put down the quack pipe!"
Last night I was out with some friends in Central Park. We were around 96st smack in the middle of the park. Out of nowhere, I hear a very distinguishable train horn. It sounded like it was coming from Amtrak. Amtrak runs beneath riverside park and comes out of its little underground area at like 120th street, which is where it would most likely sound its horn. How is it possible that I probably heard that horn from more than a mile away (and no I'm not crazy)? Wow...
(How is it possible that I probably heard that horn from more than a mile away)
Sound carries well when the wind is right and there's not too much background noise. Another thread mentioned hearing train horns 5 miles away out in the suburbs.
Or 15 miles or better when you live out with the moocows. oink. :)
Oink?!!!
Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Not only wind but humidity helps too.
I don't know if there's any comparison here, but the LIRR ROW from Forest Hills to Woodside crosses over Woodhaven Blvd, and I can hear train whistles from behind (the other side of) Queens Center by Newtown field.
You might have been hearing a Metro-North train emerging from the Park Av tunnel - it surfaces around 96th St, doesn't it?
Oh yeah...forgot about that!
Perhaps we should contact the Audobon Society.......perhaps they can add the Redbirds to thier "endangered species" list.......
SPECIES..........sorry about the typo!
The endangered species list is maintained by the EPA, not the Audubon Society.
I don't think having endangered species is a bad thing. While a lot of endangered species are all nice and cute, I would love to see the mosquito put on this list.
Mosquito extinction would be one of the greatest achievements of humanity. I hope that scientists who might want to work on this noble cause aren't let down by freak enviromentalists who care about this disgusting being.
LET'S MAKE THE 22ND CENTURY MOSQUITO FREE!
That wouldn't work. Bats eat mosquitos, so if the mosquitos all died, the bats would die too. And bats are cool. So by the associative rule of mathematics, we need to keep the mosquitos around.
---Brian
Do bats eat other insects? I realized that there are those creatures that eat mosquitoes, but I thought they could just switch to other insects.
Also, if all of the bats died, would the Robins die too?
Robin's motorcycle was called the Redbird.
FULL CIRCLE!!!!
Now, that Mark W was nice enough to share with the official 2004 Manny B Service Plan on http://www.nycrail.com/bmt/2004_service_plan.htm.
Does anyone here know when TA will have a brochure like that available to public. I would like to get one of those.
Hot digitty!
Read the large print: "Draft / For Discussion Purposes Only"
It's not a final plan. It's a draft. It's under discussion, both within NYCT and here. There are likely to be changes, major or minor, before anything is implemented.
Based on 2001, I'd say that a final plan will be in place a few months in advance and brochures will be distributed to the public about one month in advance.
We still have close to a year to go before anything changes. Hold your horses!
Hehe, Thanks David
Hold your horses!
Just checked, and in 18 states, that's illegal. Get in the car. Even if it's signed as a GG ... :)
Hey Kev, did you see what they did to the D?!?
OI VAAAYYYYYY!!!!
Denver's light rail routes follow that practice: the C line runs on the Central Platte Valley Spur while the D line runs Downtown.
There are likely to be changes, major or minor, before anything is implemented.
Change "likely" to definatley and you've got it right.
The post above will make your decade.
SBF called up his friend Dubya who had Pataki see to it,
D'ya think this B train business is his attempt to wind up Bob?
Nah, the Q is still running on the Brighton, although it'll be the local.
Pig!..where have you been. How are ya? Have you been behave likely?
At least the N is back where it belongs most of the time, anyway.
wayne
That would leave only one line left for them to move the D to, though I think Fred would fly all the way from California and hold the MTA bass hostage if they ever came out with a "Sea Beach D train" sometime in the future...
It happened - okay the circumstances weren't exactly the most joyful, but I wish I'd been in NYC to ride it! I mean, combining the Myrtle AND Sea Beach lines in a one seat ride - WOW!!!
The West End also had through service, since it had to fill in for the N in Manhattan and Queens.
wayne
One of my favorite class of cars (the R40 slants), with my favorite south Brooklyn Line (Sea Beach), mixed with my favorite Manhattan trunk line (Nassau Street-Yeah I know I'm sick), along with my favorite Brooklyn El (Broadway), along with my favorite all time line (the Myrtle-The M line north of Myrtle/Broadway).
So yes, the post 9/11 reroute of the M was one of my favorite all time routings.
BWAHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
:-) Andrew
FWIW I'm keeping my fingers crossed, too. I want to see the N back on the bridge as much as you do.
When 2004 rolls around, I believe the (N) will return to the Manny B. If the northside 6th Ave tracks can support two lines (B) & (D) then the southside tracks can support the (N) & (Q). The Montague St. tunnel will support the (M) & (R). Just as long as the (Q) doesn't go back to 6th Ave. However, I still am wondering the logic of swapping the southern routes of the (B) & (D).
Bill "Newkirk"
I think you're on to something. Let's switch the southern terminals of the A and D. Don't the Yankee fans on the Fulton line deserve one-seat service for a change? After all, the Fulton line has even more riders than the Brighton line.
Are there STILL Yankee fans? I'd think after Steingrabber's war with the Dolans (Cablevision) everybody'd be rooting for da Mets by now. Heh. Mind ya, I'm not into sports, so I don't care. I like the Mets ONLY because they have soul. I guess that happens to ya when you grow up in the Bronx. But I'm PROUD of Cablevision for telling Steingrabber PRECISELY where to insert his F-connector ("F-connector" is the name of that thing that screws into the back of your TV set) ...
But go to your room. Damned hippies. :)
How did hippies get involved with the Yankees?
Oh poor Unca Fred is gonna be MIGHTY confused reading this thread. Fritz the Cat NEVER rode da Seabits ...
Look that up in your Funk and Wagonall's.:)
Looks like they want to keep an express service from Astoria to Whitehall Street.
If you asked me, the next step I'd expect MTA to think about is extending the W to La Guardia (but not the N).
This plan looks pretty decent. Subtalkers have posted reasonable alternatives in past threads.
Is it time for you guys to write to MTA and suggest, in writing, some of the alternatives I know you've worked hard to create? Come one, now's your chance!
Oh yeah, that 2004 Manny B Service plan of mines was tough for me put it together. Luckly, I have old maps handy to do this. Now, my 2004 Manhattan Bridge Service Plan Draft is ready to be sent to TA. But all I need, right now is to prepare letter.
Um, the W in NYCT's proposal (and pretty much all others that I've seen) is a local. Without it the R would be the only Broadway BMT local on weekdays.
It happens to go to Astoria, and I'm sure Astorians will make good use of it, but the basic need for teh W is in Manhattan itself, not in Queens.
(It happens to go to Astoria, and I'm sure Astorians will make good use of it, but the basic need for teh W is in Manhattan itself, not in Queens.)
6 or 7 tph is not sufficient for Astoria in rush hour. 12-14, admittedly, is slightly more than necessary.
I am surprised that NYCT is suggesting sending the W to Astoria outside of rush hour. Probably more to serve Lex and Queensboro Plaza than Astoria.
I personally was expecting unbalanced N service from Astoria (more trains SB than NB), with some Ns going only to Whitehall instead of to CI. This looks like more service than the minimum needed, gratifying but uncharacteristic for NYCT.
"6 or 7 tph is not sufficient for Astoria in rush hour. 12-14, admittedly, is slightly more than necessary."
Have you read the numbers for Broadway and all other stations above it? By the time the train gets to Broadway, it is full during rush hour. And try squeezing in the train at Queensboro Plaza in the AM rush at 8:30 AM. Except for 39th and 36th Aves, each of the Astoria line stations have at least 10,000 customers or more.
4 to 5 minute headways during rush hours is necessary on the Astoria line.
(Have you read the numbers for Broadway and all other stations above it? By the time the train gets to Broadway, it is full during rush hour.)
Do you ride the Astoria Line regularly during rush hour? If so, I defer to your judgement. I have ridden it a few times during rush hour and found it to be comfortably full at Broadway and still with some space to spare at Queensboro Plaza, but no more than that.
"I am surprised that NYCT is suggesting sending the W to Astoria outside of rush hour. Probably more to serve Lex and Queensboro Plaza than Astoria."
Yes, very good! NYCT concludes that the transfer demand from the 7 warrants this service.
Why would they flip the B and D trains? and much less make the B the Brighton Express?
Good thing it's tentative though
Beets me. I have no club where they came with such idea. I hoping the 2004 Manhattan Bridge Service Plan would look this
Service on North Side Manhattan Bridge:
B
6th Avenue Express
[Midday/Evening] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge)
[Rush Hours]- All Stops Bedford Park Blvd, The Bronx to 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn
[Weekends/Nights] – No Service: Use D for service to/from Manhattan and The Bronx; and W for service to/from Brooklyn, Transfer between D and W at 34 Street.
D
6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on South Side Manhattan Bridge:
N
Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Service on the Montague Street Tunnel:
M
Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R
Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
W
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (lower Manhattan) to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (via West End & Montague Street Tunnel).
[Midday] - Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 9th Ave, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights/Weekends]: Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (via lower Manhattan) to Pacific Street, Brooklyn; express stops from Pacific Street to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street, Stillwell Avenue, Brooklyn (via West End).
Great thing that this is tentative draft. Otherwise I couldn't imagine the looks on public faces. Especially the West End and Brighton. And they would give such reponses to TA.
HUH????????
WHAT IN THE F*** IS THAT?
HOW IN FREAKIN HELL you have B in Brighton line and D in West End Service.
WHERE DID THE TA CAME UP WITH SUCH IDIOTIC IDEAS?
MTA, GOING THE DUMB WAY!
To link the part-time Brighton express with the part-time Concourse D.
I prefer a different approach, but the idea is sound.
To link the part-time Brighton express with the part-time Concourse B.
I prefer a different approach, but the idea is sound.
I looked at the plan and it looks terrific. The Sea Beach Express will return and the Brighton Express "Q" will finally go all the way to Stillwell Avenue AT LAST!! To celebrate, they should run the BMT "Triplexs" on the Sea Beach Line and the should run the BMT "Standards" on the Brighton Line.
#3 West End Jeff
The plan wasn't bad at all, it was great, but I still get confused abotu B D Flip-flop. The great thing about this plan is that West End and Brighton will have 24hr service on either Broadway and 6th Ave. So you do like the B D Flip-flop?
the "B" abd "D' flip-flop looks interesting. I wonder how many people will get mixed up at first since enough of them will probably recall the original routings of the "B" and the "D" trains.
#3 West End Jeff
Sincs that this is NOT offical, but a draft plan, I cannot add comment to this plan. But if someone did give me this plan in my hands, I would rip it up into shreds or use it a toilet paper (and not to dry my hands off with either).
Now everyone in south Brooklyn would really get confused.
Terminals changed over the years and people got used to it. And it's different this time because by the time the bridge is ready, three years will have elapsed since the B and D last wended their way through Brooklyn. What's the big deal?
1. Maintain Broadway-Brighton express service 24-7, something I was really hoping for in any plan.
2. Gives on weekdays both Broadway and 6th avenue expresses to both 4th avenue and Brighton.
3. Gives vastly improved service to West End and Sea Beach.
4. Sends three late night trains into Manhattan, the D, Q, and N.
I think all of these make it worth it. I like the current 24/7 Q service and am quite glad that this plan retains it. Sending the D to the West End and preserving 24 hour service on both the D and Q are far preferrable to sending the D to Brighton, IMO.
I saw a C/R this morning buy a NY POST from his train on the platform at Times Sq. He yelled "I NEED A NEW YORK POST!" at the top of his lungs twice before the guy in the stand ran over to the train and brought him the paper. I found it quite amusing. When I heard the C/R scream the first time I thought someone was dying.
---Brian
Maybe the C/R had an energency fish he needed to wrap!
It probably violates some rule.
LMAO!
Conductor needs some edumication. Post is ONLY good for keeping a door in the cab from closing unexpectedly. Beyond that, it won't even pass for a snow brake. :)
Kevin,
I have heard that the Post is also good for cleaning up after a sick customer (although I am sure the customer would prefer to use the NY Times).
Nah, no good for that EITHER ... not ABSORBENT enough. The clay-coated paper makes it worthless even for THAT. Nice try though. Can't even wipe a windshield worth a damn. About the ONLY thing the POST is useful for is plugging holes in redbirds so they rain don't get in, but we're running out of rustboids too. Soon there will be *NO* purpose for the POST at all. :)
Well, I suppose you could use it to prop a cab door open...
As to the sign cage though, that was just a matter of getting it back onto its mounts properly and a wee bit of oil. That's an EASY one.
<>
Like there ever has been a purpose for the Post :D
>>> I saw a C/R this morning buy a NY POST from his train on the platform at Times Sq. <<<
In the subway now, only the C/R or T/O could do that, but I remember riding on trains with pre-war coaches which would pull into a station and hawkers with soda, sandwiches, and newspapers and magazines would walk along the train offering their wares to the passengers through the windows.
Tom
I remember on the New Haven where between GCT and 125th street a man would walk up and down the aisles with a big box containing candies, gum, smokes, etc.
A few years ago, they replaced the Bell Blvd bridge that crosses over the tracks at Bayside. Underneathe the bridge, there are gaps that have huge cables running along the underside. These gaps have created a perfect area for pigeons to breed, feast and do the droppings. From a health point of view, this is not good at all. Who can commuters complain too?...there is so much bird droppings that is really is getting out of hand.
A quote from Triumph the Dog: "...FOR ME TO POOP ON!" ...:P
.......for the first time in well over 40 years, the rails of the IRT will no longer bear witness to the rumblings and screechings of subway cars that changed little since the days when the R17s when new.IRT buffs will have no "nostalgic equipment" to photograph or ride.(somehow, even twenty years from now, it will be difficult to think of an R62 as "nostalgic".........
I will miss the Redbirds. I remember some of my first rides where on Redbirds. Well enjoy the #7 Line while you can there next to go.
<>somehow, even twenty years from now, it will be difficult to think of an R62 as "nostalgic".........
Try saying at to the 40 and 50somethings of 2020.
Why do you have a warped vision that all progress should have stopped in 1965?
WARPED VIEW?? You can get your point across, without resorting to sarcasm. Face it, since the 70s, mass transit vehicles have been cheaply made, many failing within days of entering service. The r46s was failing so much, that prewar R cars had to be pulled off the scrap line to fill the gap created by new trains failing. Look at the early 80s Gruman Flxible fiasco...BRAND NEW MTA buses were literally falling apart on the streets, and it took a fleet of 209 year old buses from DC to get service back. Call me old fashioned, but I do not appreciate bieng told my views are warped. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. And I still say, that mass transit vehicles of today are nothing but hunks of fiberglass and stainless steel....flimsy, shoddy, expensive to build and maintain.
Face it, since the 70s, mass transit vehicles have been cheaply made...mass transit vehicles of today are...flimsy, shoddy, expensive to build and maintain.
Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.
I don't think that the engineers that design new stuff (and I'm only 10 classes away from being a civil engineer) appreicate people thinking that new stuff is cheaper and crappier than old stuff. Do you think that engineers sit around and think how they can make shoddy products? Once you actually understand the design and manufacturing process, then you'll be singing a different tune.
-Materials are stronger, lighter and easier to manufacture than 20 years ago. Just becuase it's not 10 mm thick steel doesn't make it flimsy or shoddy.
-Computerized technology has allowed the tightest tolerances ever seen. There's no way someone by hand can fit some assembly into another with less than 1 mm of tolerance.
-An entire subway car (or anything else, for that matter) can be designed, tested and optimized on a computer before the first piece of metal is stamped.
I for one do not care if "engineers that design new stuff appreicate people thinking that new stuff is cheaper and crappier than old stuff". The reason being is that I do not care what engineers think- all I ask is that they engineer. Additionally, all of todays technological advances in materials and manufacturing processes do not mean a thing except for their own sake. The only thing that matters to the public is that the finished product is durable and reliable when properly maintained. I highly doubt that todays trains will be running in 2443. I would, however, love to be proven wrong.
I highly doubt the Redbirds would be running 2403, so how does that make them better?
I would not love to be proven wrong. I understand you might like to ride an R-142 in 2443, but would you want to ride to work every day in a horsecar or rickshaw built in 1563?
Ennineering requires thinking, so I'm sure you aren't an engineer. It's our THINKING that allows you to do nearly every single thing you do everyday without YOU having to think about it.
Additionally, all of todays technological advances in materials and manufacturing processes do not mean a thing except for their own sake.
Uh huh, they only reduce costs, increase safety, and make things WAY EASIER for you. I guess people today are spoiled by technology and have no clue how easy it makes their lives. Do you think that no thought was given to the T/O or the CI and how easier their job is going to be with the 142s? They just put all that time and effort to design an advanced control system because they were bored?
Since you presumably believe what you write, I take it you live in a cave with no electricity, no kitchen, no sofa, no bed, no toilet and no clothes? Did you use smoke signals to write your post?
I highly doubt that todays trains will be running in 2[0]43
I just went forward in time to 2043, and yes, the 142s are still running. So you were wrong.
WARPED VIEW?? You can get your point across, without resorting to sarcasm. Face it, since the 70s, mass transit vehicles have been cheaply made, many failing within days of entering service. The r46s was failing so much, that prewar R cars had to be pulled off the scrap line to fill the gap created by new trains failing. Look at the early 80s Gruman Flxible fiasco...BRAND NEW MTA buses were literally falling apart on the streets, and it took a fleet of 20 year old buses from DC to get service back. Call me old fashioned, but I do not appreciate bieng told my views are warped. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. And I still say, that mass transit vehicles of today are nothing but hunks of fiberglass and stainless steel....flimsy, shoddy, expensive to build and maintain.
When the last Redbird is pulled from active service. Three eras will be forever ending on the IRT .....1, there will be no cars with the traditional straphangers, 2, the last of the Post-war IRT Rs will become history, and, perhaps the saddest, (3), is that there will be no longer any more DOMESTIC built cars running on the IRT.....St. Louis Car Company, ACF,.........I think it's sad, poignant, and disturbing, where supposedly the greatest country in the world no longer has a domestic car building industry.........and people wonder why there are so many people out of work today........think about it...when the LAST time you saw ANYTHING made in the USA?? Most everything now is either from China or Mexico.....sad
That reminds me of a question I've been thinking about for along time. Whatever became of the St. Louis Car Company?
Mark
Mark, I cannot tell you EXACTLY what became of the company; all I know is it is LONG gone. I think thr R46 cars were the LAST NYC subway cars built by a domestic car builder.
If that's the case, then Westinghouse-Amrail (the manufactor of the R68 subway cars) must be a consortium of foreign companies...I thought they were American?
you would be surprised how many foriegn components are in the cars.
You'd be surprised how many foreign people worked in the factories that built the repulsive rustbirds.
Also, are you offended that the rustbirds are powered by foreign oil?
Westinghouse was an American company, but yes, Amrail was a foreign consortium: Jeumont-Schneider, Alsthom, etc.
The St. Louis Car Company was shuttered right after the last R-44 was built (SI car 466) in 1973. It was a subsidiary of General Steel Industries. What became of that company?
General Steel Industries was acquired by Lukens, Inc on Wednesday, March 31, 1982.
Lukens was acquired by Bethlehem Steel (NYSE: BS) on Friday, May 29, 1998.
Pullman-Standard built the R-46 order, so that might be the last US-built cars. But did Budd build anything later for other systems?
The Boeing-Vertol LRVs were later; the Washington Rohr cars were around the same time as the NY Pullmans, I think.
Many cars are partly US-built--Bombardier, for example, and the Japanese cars built for Los Angeles.
This is an interesting thread; Sansone's book has some good detail on the R-44s and R-46s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The M-3s were built by Budd. Budd also provided cars for the Baltimore subway (1983).
The Budd Baltimore order also included the Miami cars, didn't it?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Don't forget the 600-car order of Budd built, later Transit America, cars for the CTA. These were delivered between 1981-86. This series of cars were delivered after the Boeing cars of 1979-80.
Jim K.
Chicago
2, the last of the Post-war IRT Rs will become history, and, perhaps the saddest
Because the R-62 and R-142 were both built BEFORE WWII.
Most everything now is either from China or Mexico.....sad
No, it's not. It is PROGRESS.
Whether you like it or not, the industrial age is over and dead. The most prosperous countries in the world primarily deal with information and technology. Manufacturing is something that is increasingly shifted to second rate countries like China and Mexico.
But train manufacturing is high technology and belongs in an advanced country like the United States.
Not a single train in the subway today is manufactured in China or Mexico. The R-142 was built entirely in Plattsburgh, NY, which last I looked is in the United States. And while the R-142A may have been manufactured in Kobe, Japan (Japan is not a second rate country anymore), final assembly was done in Yonkers, NY. Regardless of who owns these operations, they don't import workers from Japan and Canada to do all of the work there, so your argument about trains being made abroad causing a loss of American jobs doesn't hold water.
Besides, with all of the international trading that goes on, it doesn't really matter where a company's headquarters are. Both Kawasaki and Bombardier are international corporations. Bombardier is based in Canada which is really just America Jr.
I guess Kawasaki is a tried and true U.S brand name...........
Why isn't it? There are a lot of Kawasaki products in the United States.
To get back on topic, Subtalk's favourite (?) company Bombadier, a Canadian company officially, but now operating around the world, makes NYC Subway cars in Plattsburg, NY, which last time I looked was in the USA (albeit not too far from the Canadian border). However, the trains I ride to work on in England are also Bombadier products. They are made in the factory that was previously Adtranz, but which was originally the works of the Midland Railway Company, later British Rail, at Derby. The train operating company Midland Mainline is headquartered in Derby, and is the ultimate successor, in effect, of the Midland Railway Co. In its publicity materials, it refers to these trains as being made by "the Derby trainmaker, Bombadier". No mention of Canada - so far as the English travellers reading this publicity can tell, Bombadier is a good ol' English company!
Now that so many subway trains have so much hi-tech computerized gizmos and doo-dads, maybe the MTA should hire some techs from NASA as train operators and shopmen. Or maybe Mr. Spock or Captain Picard might be interested in such as a position; seeing how the cab of a subway car is pretty similiar to the bridge of the StarShip Enterprise......(!!) BEAM ME UP, SCOTTY!!
Starlog 75.2545.
A 12-9 has just come along us... The body appears to be alien. We need to netralize it and get it out of straphangers' way. I need assistance...I repeat, I need ASSISTANCE!
ROFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!
Fascinating!!!
The next stop is Grand Central. Make it so!!
The doors are closed - engage!!
Rodger,Jay St Control......we have a Klingon blocking the doors on Pelham 123 at Times Square..........
Mr Checkov - MetroCard on stun.
If a Pelham train is stopped at Times Square (barring a GO or emergency reroute) then things *really* have gone to hell! :D
SCOTTY, JUST BEAM ME TO PENN STATION
Courtesy of Widecab5 - The last R-33 Redbird Set to operate on the 5 was withdrawn from service on Tuesday, March 25th. The last train was made up of North-8820-21-8862-63-8878-79-8892-93-8914-15-South. This officially makes the 5 100% R-142. This should also mean that the last R-142 Set assigned to the 5 has entered service, 6806-10 and 6886-90.
-Stef
Rats. When was it pulled? It wasn't running in the afternoon rush.
Might have been after the AM Rush.
-Stef
Must have been.
This is the second time this has happened to me. On October 15, I waited and waited to ride the last R-29 set, but I took a surprise R-33 2 train instead and later found out that the R-29 set had been removed from service at the end of the day. Then yesterday, I waited and waited to ride one of the last two R-33 sets on the 5, only to learn that it had been removed earlier in the day.
Watch. Whatever day I decide to ride a 4 Redbird, there won't be any left there either.
But wait! There's a corollary. The last 4 Redbird won't be pulled from service until I try to ride it, at which point it will be promptly yanked out from under my nose. That means that, as long as I boycott the 4, the Redbirds will continue to run indefinitely. Is it worth the sacrifice? You bet it is!
You are a man with a great brain in your head!
Remember that even though the Redbirds are being formally retired, 58 of them will be held for future use. They'll be used on an as needed basis at any time, and possibly on any line....
-Stef
True. I hope to see some of them at home on the 2.
I've mentioned this idea before, but just before the last Redbirds are retired, I'd like to see them do a grand two-month tour of the system, spending one week on each line. Start with eleven cars (one R-33 single and ten SMS R-33 mainlines) and run them on the 7 for a week. Dump the single and cycle the rest through the mainline routes, spending a week on each. Finally, take four cars and run them on the shuttle (track 3) for a week.
Is it worth suggesting this to NYCT?
I like this idea. I think they should do it.
Although the 1 might not be able to get them, because of South Ferry, but at least all the other IRT lines could.
How about a Redbird 3!?!? I haven't seen them there since they were the grafitti-birds!
They would be quite a sight on the 1 and 3.
They could run on the 1, but they might have to bypass South Ferry. That's not a big deal -- South Ferry can live with a hair less than the 12-20 tph the line gets most of the day.
They couldn't run on the 9, at least not without new signs. (They'd have to borrow signs from the 4 or 7 in any case, since the ones from the 2/5 don't have the 1 or 3 settings anymore.)
I was secretly hoping this weekend to run into a Redbird 3, banished from its own yard by the GO. It looks like there actually was one 4 set that ran on the 3 over the weekend, but it was an R-62 set. (I saw it yesterday at Brooklyn Bridge with 3's on the signs between cars.)
Why would they have to bypass South Ferry?
Something about they don't work well with the platform extenders.
Thank you for the info.
And I got photos ;) - hang on just a few minutes!
Just to add, obviously they used to run and stop at South Ferry, but when the R62's came, I think they had to adjust the extenders because the doors are not in the same exact place on the redbirds. This made the 1/9 HAVE to use R62's only. The 3, even though it was 100% non-redbird, could have run them. The 2 and 5 was 100% redbird, even after the R62's came. The 4 and 6 were half and half.
While it didn't work on the Lex, the 7th ave line was kind of cool. By the color of the train, (barring reroutes) you could tell what train was in the station. Well the locals were always silver. But on the express, when you saw an red train it was a 2, when it was a silver train, it was a 3.
There was a Redbird Train that made a brief appearance on the 3 in the 90s, possibly to fill a gap in R-62As that were OOS.
-Stef
Do you recall the date when those Redbirds ran on the #3 line or have pictures of them?
No pictures available, but this was from the early 1990s.
-Stef
Do you remember what series was it & were they running those redbirds in 10 car or 8 car on the #3 line?
I'm pretty sure it was 8900 series, 10 Cars.
-Stef
Thanks, Stef
Also, I recall seeing a Redbird 3 on "Subway Q & A".
I know this is very low tech, but how about an announcement along the lines of "Mind the Gap!" - or as it comes across on the PA systems on the London Underground "Maiii(crackle)thagaaaaaaahh(electronic sceeching noise)".
They should intersperse that with John Cleese saying, "And now for something completely different.":)
The problem with running the SMS R-33s with a Single WF Car is that there is a brake compatibility problem. You'd need a train of 9000 or 9100 Series Cars to do this. As I recall, a train of 8800 and 8900 series mainline R-33s were sent over to the 7 for testing prior to the arrival of R-62As two years ago, and they were not able to operate with the single unit WF Car. Other than that, the plan sounds good, perhaps NYCT could entertain suggestions. The TA is not known for being railfan friendly though...
-Stef
All R-33ML Cars from 9076-9305 could be used in train with the Singles. In the early 90s, there were R-33ML Cars in regular service on the 7, to replace R-36s undergoing a 2nd Overhaul.
-Stef
Don't dump the single! It is just as valuable as the ML fleet.
The only R33 Single that has been dumped is 9321. I do not think they will be dumping any more R33 Singles into the water as these will be saved for work service and perhaps future fan trips ie The June FanTrips.
#9327 7 Flushing Local
I'm referring to the two-month system tour.
Once the tour is done with the 7, what would you do with the single? The mainline routes run ten-car trains.
I'm using R-33ML's rather than R-36WF's for the other ten cars because they're in much better shape.
That's great news. I wasn't aware of that.
Ah, so it's 58 Redbirds and not 70. I take it they'll hand-pick the lucky ones. Chances are they would only be used during rush hours. At least spare parts shouldn't be a problem.
They've got their 58 Cars already, as a matter of fact. The selected bunch that were saved from the reef received overhauled trucks...
-Stef
Are they R33ML or R33WF, or some other class, or a mix?
All Cars are R-33ML.
-Stef
Thank you David for boycotting the #4.
Are you getting enough sleep?
:0)
He is. I'm not :(
I believe that Redbird set had been worked on by SubTalk's own CI Peter (aka OnTheJuice).
History repeats itself. I remember the last Lo-Vs being on the 5 being withdrawn, leaving only the 4 with mainline Lo-Vs.
AND the #5 was the last bastion of the R21, which outlasted the R22, and was withdrawn in 1988, IIRC.
wayne
The last run of the R21/22 was on 11/30/87. The R17's lasted into February of 1988, on the #5 (the redbird R17's).
Believe it or not, I never saw a solid R-17 train anywhere except on the shuttle. In fact, I never saw a solid R-21 or R-22 train, either.
Me neither. When I first began riding the subway, the R12/14/15's were gone, and the R17/21/22's were concentrated on the #3 & #5 lines. They were ALWAYS mixed, usually with each other but sometimes with newer cars (R26-R36). The were rare on the 5 by the end of 1986. I never rode the red R17 cars anywhere but the 42nd St. shuttle.
Reviewing my trip notes, I stand corrected. My own last ride on the R21 was on the #5 line, and was in August of 1987.
wayne
Looks like the 7 will be the last stand of the reds. From what it sounds like, not too many left on the 4 either anymore.
And the R142's keep coming. I saw a whole shipment at NYA's Fresh Pond Yard today, with the closest set I could see #6880.
Farewell to Redbird on #5 line, I took my last ride #5 Redbird last thursday morning.
God Bless to U.S. Soldiers
David
My last #5 Redbird was last month working out of 149 GC car # 9246
This officially makes the 5 100% R-142.
OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
Sniff, sniff.:(
they should have at least kept some on the <5> line so they could be used during rush hours (and possibly one on the (2) line so the offpeak <5> can run again).
All three of the (4)'s redbird sets were running today during the afternoon rush.
---Brian
Will they be running during Friday's evening rush? I have a half day Friday and will be taking pictures then because this Sunday is shot to heck, between the chance of rain and the remote possiblilty that I might actually make it to Branford, there's no way I'm doing my routine picture run on Sunday.
Photo of a member of the final (5) Redbird set (taken previously):
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/R-33ML/r33ml_8879a
Take Pride,
Brian
Very nice!
-Stef
I just purchased a National Geographic from July, 1949. On page eight is a full page ad for Budd with half the page taken up with an artist's rendering of an R-11 signed as a "D" and under saying 6th AVE with destination sign of Hudson Terminal. The train is stopped with the doors closed at the 42nd St./Sixth Ave. IND station on the downtown express track. The front widow to the left of the engineer is an R10 window not the window that is on the R11. Also the R11 was BMT property and did not even have letters in its route sign. But here it is on an IND line. Other than that, the picture is true in every way (from what I know).
Here is what the pertinent text says (this is in excerpts by me).
Most recently Budd has become active in the improvement of subway cars. A prototype, ten-car ALL-stainless steel subway train was delivered in April to New York City's progressive Board of Transportation. In view of previous developments which have stemmed from Budd enterprise, subway operators may look forward to the creation of more efficient, economical equipment, and subway riders to much-improved service. The Budd Company, Philadelphia, Detroit.
National Geographic back issues are in most main library branches. They are hardbound and you can enjoy this beautiful picture of a brand new R-11. Too bad they never got past the prototype phase.
I would like to see this picture on the website, if that can be arranged.
Given the car shortage on the BMT in 1949, I'm stunned more weren't ordered.
> I would like to see this picture on the website, if that can be
> arranged.
I'm not sure who if anyone would need to approve the reproduction given that it's an ad (and not National Geographic "content") and Budd is no more. If you want to look into it that would be fine. In the meantime you can scan it and send it along if you like.
But, while the R-11 spent most of its time on heritage BMT lines, it's not fair to say they spent their time on BMT property. Board of Transportation/City of New York property is more like it, since unification happened 9 years prior to their arrival. I suppose Budd didn't really know where they would end up since they were meant to prototype a 2nd Avenue Subway fleet. Picturing them anywhere on the B.O.T. subway system isn't that big a stretch.
Well except maybe the IRT :)
That very same advertisement is reproduced in Greller's NYCTA subway car book.
I have a couple of those ads that I picked up from Ebay awhile back. I figured it was from National Geographic because of the small size of the ad...otherwise there is no other identifying feature on the ad. I had one framed and donated it to a transit collection...
Natural Geographic, eh? Were the R11's going TOPLESS in there like those froggy native gurls? After all, we KNOW what right wingers bought National Geo for, and it WASN'T the interviews with Michael Moore. :)
National Georgraphic ran a topless picture of Michael Moore? Aaauuuuggghhh! My eyes are melting! My eyes are melting! :-)
You're a sick man...but we loves ya anyhow :)
Didn't the R-11s have letters on the end signs? As I recall, there were BMT Division numbers on one end of each car and IND Division letters on the other. The side signs were the small style used on R-10, R-12,R-14, and R-15, with no letter or number. I have a side route sign from an R-11 but it's not accessible right now. From memory, I'm fairly sure it has 'Via Bridge,' 'Via Tunnel,' "Via Nassau Street,' and I think 'Express' and 'Local'; I'll have to look for it.
Inside the R-11 car, at each end, there was a route map, one for the BMT Division and the other for the IND Division. Each had a sign to the effect, "When this car is operating on the ____ Division, use the map at the other end of the car." The IND map had wide red lines for IND routes and narrow lines for the other divisions (green and yellow, respectively, I think, for IRT and BMT, but I could be wrong on that). The IND map had back lighting and the red turned into gold when it was lit. I remember thinking of that as another anti-BMT act on the part of the City.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Just found my R-11 sign box. There were four signs--two on the right, between the first and second pairs of doors, and then two more, with type-of-service and route, between the second and third pairs of doors (look at any photo).
The box has light green institutional paint on it and a handle that's sort of like a tight-curled whisk.
The sign box I have is the third from the front, and it reads (all in caps):
LOCAL
EXPRESS
LOCAL-EXPRESS
LOCAL VIA LOOP
EXP. VIA LOOP
I have no way of knowing if the sign curtain is the original; when I bought the box several years ago from a reliable source, it was said to be from an R-11. The green paint looks like a later paint job.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Unfortunately, I only got to experience the R-11s on the Franklin Shuttle in the late 60s, but I remember the 4 side signs. I think at that time at least, both ends had the BMT number designations, I dont recall those signs saying anything other than "7 Franklin" at either end. OTOH by the late 60s, I would usually see only one R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s (to the delight of the C/R who could now work in the cabs at the blind ends of the Brightliners).
Peppertree: You may have just solved a puzzle for me. I have a copy of the Erie Railroad Timetable Form 1 . Page 27 of the timetable list the connections at Hoboken to New York City. Of course it lists the Hudson and Manhattan Tube Trains but what is includes is a pen and ink drawing of an R-11 and it mentions H & M service to Hudson Terminal.
I guess the artist must have seen the National Geographic issue and wasn't aware of the difference between the IND Hudson Terminal and the H&M Hudson Terminal.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Posting On Behalf Of Widecab5 - As of Monday, 3/24, one R-142 Trainset has entered service with another to follow. 7146-55 have entered service on the 4. 7141-45 and 7161-65 were also scheduled to be in service this past Monday, but hadn't occurred as of yet. They should be in service shortly.
This in turn has reduced the number of Redbirds still running on the 4. There were previously 40 Cars running on the 4. There are currently 3 Trainsets remaining at present time with the 4th set taken out of service.
-Stef
There were only three sets in service during yesterday's afternoon rush.
I also didn't see any R-142's the 4, but I may have blinked.
There were only two sets in service during yesterday's afternoon rush.
I also didn't see any R-142's the 4, but I may have blinked.
Really. I did not know that a R142 set already appear on the 4. After seeing Pelham Bay Dave at E.180St waiting to do the shuttle thing, 7141-45/7161-65 was returning home from doing simulated stops on the 4. I thought that would be the first "official" set.
Da Beastmaster
Can you tell me, why, in this day and age, are many railfans taunted by non-railfan peers for "playing with trains"?? Why the rail hobby is looked down upon by many (but by no means all) non-railfans is beyond me. Face it...railfans are mostly "in the closet", so to speak.When guys get together, what is the topic? Sports and sex....sex and sports...or cars or motorcycles. Why is there still such a stigma about men who are railfans? Face it...can you picture a group of macho guys guzzling beer and talking about sex, sports, and other "manly" topics, and the lone railfan in the group starts talking about Redbirds and Lo-Vs????? I have read too many articles over the years about men who secretly hide thier railfan tendencies, for fear of riducle from thier macho peers. I know this firtsthand, believe me. Could you picture a bunch of guys, huddled around a centerfold, and hear them saying: "Man! That R8 has got some set of trucks!" I have worked with some guys for over twenty years, and suddenly discovering they are "closet" railfans. Sory to ramble on, but this is a subject that riles me no end. With so much machinery, electrical hardware, etc, you would think that, beyond a doubt, the railfanning is INDEED a MANLY hobby!
It's always been that way. Most little kids love trains and streetcars - both sexes, btw. Most people outgrow it, some don't. However, model trains don't seem to attract lots of females, but that's not even a hard, fast rule. (That being said, three of my friends have wives/girlfriends who are into model trains in one way or another (one got her father to buy a Lionel set in the 50's - when Lionel was pushing the sets for girls, complete with pastel locomotive and cars. She wanted a regular set, and that's what Dad got her. - She still has it. She married a railfan and is active in the Wilmington & Western Railroad in the non-operating end.)
When I was a teenager, the happiest day was when I discovered there were other guys who were nuts about streetcars and trains. Some of those guys are still active in BSM Baltimore Streetcar Museum today.
As we all got older, many of us got along with the car/sports guys too. It did help to have a little sports (in Baltimore, the Orioles are local religion, so everybody know baseball, plus in that era the Colts were big time, too) plus, by Senior year, almost everybody had cars - I drove my mother's classic 57 Chevy Bel Air, which told the car jocks "I'm really cool".
Today, we're all grown up and most guys know not to push what they like on another guy.It comes with maturity.
I think some people are ticked off because buffs can ride the rails more or less at will and they have have "responsibilies".
You may be right!!! TOUCHE'!!!!!!!!
It depends on how you present it.When I am around my friends and am talking about the LIRR for example I just tell them "To be thisclose to 700 volts of electricity and to have 1000 tons of steel moving at 80 mph,it does not get any better than that"Some think its cool,some dont.By the way,I am one of those railfans that prefer to be alone when I am out there.My main love for fanning is speed and sound,and of course arcing.I love grade crossings,a railroad is complete with them.
Grade crossings do make a railroad, I admit! I miss the one on the Canarsie (LL) BMT....a GRADE crossing on a SUBWAY?? Am glad for the memories!!
When was the use of gum vending machines discontinued in the subways? The last I can recall seeing them was in the 70s.....could you imagine how vandalized they would be today if still in place?
Vandalized? They would rip them right off the pillars.
Man, you got that right!!!!!!!!!!!!
beside you can't sell gum a 1 cent a piece and make a profit
>>> beside you can't sell gum a 1 cent a piece and make a profit <<<
You couldn't even cover the costs of collecting the coins. That is why what used to be penny public scales now cost 25¢ if you can find one.
Tom
When I was going to HS in the early '70's, I used to see candy vending machines at Queensboro Plaza. They disappeared about 1970-1971. Maybe it was just as well, There was a brittle candy that was either very brittle or very stale. Probably both!
The vending machines were removed ca. 1974. There was a scandal involving the vendor.
David
Thanks.......and if the scandal didn't spell doom for the subway gum machines, the vandals certainly would have!
Thanks.......and if the scandal didn't spell doom for the subway gum machines, the vandals certainly would have!
I think the goths got to them first.
Are any trains scheduled to depart (or were they ever) from Pelham Bay Park at 1:23?
Go to: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/schemain.htm
The closest train to 1:23 leaves at 1:22. Rats, we missed it by 1 minute.
I don't know about the older times, maybe some other Sub-Talker can help.
Chuck Greene
Ever since the movie came out TA has tried to avoid having scheduled trains leaving Pelham Bay Park at 1:23 AM or PM.
Thank you, Douce Man. It's almost like it would be "doomed' ,(no pun intended) if it left at 1:23. I can certainly side with the TA's reasoning for that.
Thanks again.
Chuck Greene
One thing I have always wondered about is, in the Pelham 123 book, the train trapped behind the hijacked train at 28th St station was designated as "Pelham 128". Was the 6 running every 5 minutes at that time of day in the mid-70s?
Either it was or the suthor had to take a liberty in identifing what the train behind it was.
This episode features stock footage of an IND pre-war R train running between stations. Also, the show's producers didn't do thier homework....the train shown pulling into the station is an IND R, but, when two thugs knock out the motorman in his vestiblue cab, it is clearly a Lo-V....then, one thug sets the controller on HIGH....(no dead man's feature!) ....sending the VALLEY LOCAL on a collision course with VALLEY EXPRESS just ahead of it. I guess the Metropolis subway system didn't have signalling with trip-arms!! But, the unmistakable whining, growling sounds of a pre-war subway train at speed, is right on the mark! No complaint there!(note: the same IND stock footage was used in the I Love Lucy episode "LUCY AND THE LOVING CUP"(aired in January 1957), as well as the 1953 movie, "PICKUP ON SOUTH STREET" starring Richard Widmark.
What did you expect from Hollywood? They just use whatever footage they can find and assume that people (not in NYC) would not know the difference.
True enough!!
Just take a look at Money Train. The real money train is nothing special. Just a fancy old IRT car painted yellow with baes on the windows wth 2 old cars around it. But for the movie Hollywood built a fancy car that looks like nothing TA has or ever had.
Right! I forgot "MONEY TRAIN"! So much for Hollywood authenticity!!
Not to mention gorgeous transit cops who can never get enough nookie...
Considering the nokkie was J-Lo, I can understand!
Yep, same thing when they shoot in a mock-up of a NYC subway car (this is usually done on sit-coms) and it is laden with graffiti even though the subways have been graffiti-free for years. I guess they know that the majority of viewers will immediately associate the graffiti with NYC.
And with the different movies and sit-coms that are being shown on TV and cable everyday, people are STILL seeing what NYC was like 20-30 years ago.
Well, it isn't supposed to be New York, for one thing. And how do you know the Metropolis Transit Authority didn't decide to hook up modified Low-V's to R1's in the same consist?
:0)
"Metropolis Transit Authority"
Scary to think there was a MTA 50 years ago!
Modified Lo-Vs hooked up to R1s??? I must admit, a consist like that would attract a HELLUVA LOT of attention!!
Even more attention than a carpeted R44.
:0)
Was switching channels and saw some guy on JUDGE JUDY wearing an orange short sleeve shirt with an AWESOME subway motif! It depicted an IRT car (in grey, not red, but was still authentic enough) speeding along an elevated track. The buffs would KILL for this shirt!! Wonder where this guy got it??
Much better idea than the Brookfield proposal (imo),
http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/71874.htm
If he commits the money it would be more impressive!
It would be even more impressive if they can use NYC subway rolling stock so they would need to spend money on new rolling stock if money is in short supply.
#3 West End Jeff
Please stop making sense. This is a State of New York project and several of the potential partners need to eat. Conventional cars will not be used because no one wants to build any new subway trunks (Second Avenue) and everyone wants to taste the flavor of the month (automated AirTrain cars). This requires them to spend more money in order to haggle over costs and what not.
Right now, the project is intended to distribute lots of bacon. Until I see that "market study" that was done last year, I will treat it as lots of bacon. So, no more sensible thinking, lest we scramble your eggs.
#3 West End Jeff
"It would be even more impressive if they can use NYC subway rolling stock so they would need to spend money on new rolling stock if money is in short supply. "
Additional route miles requires additional rolling stock. That would either be in the form of M1s or M3s not being retired, so either they or M7s can be assigned to the new line, or NYCT rolling stock, which would require additional cars to cover existing services.
Where does he suggest that it run?
From the story:
Officials from the city, the state, the MTA and the Port Authority will carry out an engineering study on various proposals for the rail link.
They will also begin discussing how to come up with the $2 billion to $5 billion to pay for it.
At least $250 million from the federal transit outlay was previously earmarked to study the project, but sources said that figure could grow.
Given the current budget situation, the state does not have the money for both a Second Ave. subway and a JFK link. Going by the stories over the past year and this one, it sounds like they are lowballing the cost of the JFK connection and highballing the cost of the Second Ave. route, so I think you can get a good idea when the final decision is made which way the funding's going to go (the only exception would be if the Port Authority agrees to fund a huge chunk of the project, to go along with the proposed WTC-for-JFK/LaGuardia land swap Bloomberg is pushing).
"if the Port Authority agrees to fund a huge chunk of the project, to go along with the proposed WTC-for-JFK/LaGuardia land swap Bloomberg is pushing). "
BINGO!
You're getting way ahead of yourself. You're also the only one connecting dots that don't automatically make a line.
From the Governor's press release Feb 7:
"Of the $21.4 billion that the federal government pledged in the months after the attack to help rebuild the city, $8.8 billion is coming from FEMA, and of that amount, $2.75 billion is pledged for transportation help. The FTA has also promised $1.8 billion for transportation infrastructure in downtown Manhattan."
If a commuter rail link to JFK happens, the State is looking to the federal government's dedicated NYC rebuilding fund, and to the PA, to pay for much of it. Will it happen? Hey, anything's possible, but if it does, it's going to be a special item outside the Capital Plan (it's not alone: the $750 million transit mall is also outside the Capital Plan, being funded by the NYC recovery money).
"Given the current budget situation, the state does not have the money for both a Second Ave. subway and a JFK link."
True, but irrelevant, as I've just shown you.
"Going by the stories over the past year and this one, it sounds like they are lowballing the cost of the JFK connection and highballing the cost of the Second Ave. route, so I think you can get a good idea when the final decision is made which way the funding's going to go"
Invalid analysis. You're ignoring much of the picture here.
"(the only exception would be if the Port Authority agrees to fund a huge chunk of the project, to go along with the proposed WTC-for-JFK/LaGuardia land swap Bloomberg is pushing). "
That's not the exception. That's the rule. The PA will share the cost with the federal recovery pot.
The Second Avenue Subway is a Capital Plan line item, and will be built according to the Capital Plan schedule. Different pot, different procedure. Hopefully, the projects outside the Plan will indeed be "fast-tracked." We'll see.
I'm somewhat wary of this construction if it exists solely as a point A (Downtown Manhattan, say, the new WTC) to point B (Kennedy Airport) super express service. That seems like alot of money spent to just link two points if nor regard is given to at least some intermediate points.
Of course, it may turn out that this super express service is very important to a significant number of riders, but for example, with the AirTrain project I've heard numbers that were in the low to mid thousands taking advantage of the service. I would hope that this service would be be able to attract more service than that.
Another important issue would be that of ability to tie into the present infrastructure. Could NYC Subway rolling stock use this project, perhaps as something of a replacement should the Manhattan Bridge ever need to be closed again? Could the Long Island Rail Road utilize the new line for access to downtown?
I would argue that the greater the benefit to all riders available, then the greater an overlapping and strong consensus could be built to expedite the construction process. If the scope is narrow and limited, I can't see everyone being so enthusiastic.
I agree that this project should not be overhyped.
By the way, lower Manhattan already has convenient airport rail access - to Newark International.
"Another important issue would be that of ability to tie into the present infrastructure. Could NYC Subway rolling stock use this project, perhaps as something of a replacement should the Manhattan Bridge ever need to be closed again? Could the Long Island Rail Road utilize the new line for access to downtown?"
Here you're running into FRA issues.
What are these FRA issues? I'm not at all well-versed in them. From what I understand, NYC Subway is not under their jurisidiction, but entities such as SIR are, making certain safety modifications to the R-44 cars running on SIR called for, as compared to their brethren running on the 8th Avenue/Fulton Express.
Beyond that, though, I'm clueless. Is the LIRR subject to their rules? PATH? The proposed line?
The FRA prohibits running transit trains and railroads trains on the same track, unless they are separated by time (example: transit by day, freight by night). The reason is that crash-worthiness standards are different for the two classes.
PATH is FRA compliant. I believe SIRT is not fully FRA compliant (though others here can correct me) though the R44's have been modified to meet certain FRA standards. But as long as no other railroad equipment runs on the SIRT tracks, from a practical viewpoint, it doesn't matter. I think they have a waiver of some sort (others can correct me here).
What about two different tracks in the same tunnel, never connected. I've read, for instance, that Metro North and LIRR rolling stock use different and incompatible third rail types, thus they cannot roll with each other. Say a similar situation existed between NYCS and LIRR (I don't know that it does or doesn't. My guess based on equipment testing would be that they're compatible, but what do I know?), or even better, that you wanted to avoid these FRA restrictions, so you construct a four-track tunnel (construction details aside), two tracks into Mnahttan, two tracks into Brooklyn, all running parallel. The innermost two are exclusively LIRR (due to third rail, or due to the fact that you want to evade the FRA standards), and the outermost two are NYCS (same reasons). Is this scenario allowed, where the tunnel is shared, but no trackage is? If so, does my placement of even one interlocking between the two foul it up, even if the interlocking has no third rail whatsoever, meaning NYCS revenue stock could not run across it?
You could do that (the 63rd Street tunnel does that: upper level = subway., lower level = LIRR).
Doh! Of course. Such a detailed hypothetical when there's already an actual example that I ride over so much. LOL.
Also, wouldn't a new connection from Ditmars Boulevard to La Guardia Airport be more prudent, and bring subway service to an area that probably wants it badly? The extension could, of course, go even further, but NIMBY protests across FLushing Bay could be severe. If they were overcome though, this could be the outlet for the Horace Harding/Kissena Boulevard line that was in planning in the 1960s-1970s. That's probably being irrationally optimistic though.
we all know the LGA line is dead in the water...at least from the N line.. isnt there another way such as 21st street,or Steinway street?
I suppose other routes could be drawn up, of course, through Sunnyside Yard and the 63rd Street Tunnel perhaps.
we all know the LGA line is dead in the water...at least from the N line.. isnt there another way such as 21st street,or Steinway street?
(By the way, lower Manhattan already has convenient airport rail access - to Newark International.)
Obviously, you mean after the WTC PATH station is rebuilt.
The only catch is, depending on when you arrive at Penn/Newark, you may have to wait half an hour for a train to the NJT airport station. There are 3 tph all day, but they're not evenly spaced.
"Obviously, you mean after the WTC PATH station is rebuilt."
PATH is important, but not everyone is within walking distance of PATH. So others would take the Greenwich Street subway up to Penn Station and get on Amtrak or NJT.
"The only catch is, depending on when you arrive at Penn/Newark, you may have to wait half an hour for a train to the NJT airport station. There are 3 tph all day, but they're not evenly spaced."
Amtrak adds 1-2 tph to that total.
How long do you currently have to wait for scheduled bus or private shuttle services? How long is the wait at the taxi stand?
But you do have a point. People who are interested could ask NJT to improve their schedule a bit. If there is enough demand, NJT will oblige.
I would like PATH extended to the EWR rail station, and PATH is looking at that now.
(Amtrak adds 1-2 tph to that total. )
I forgot about that. NJT tickets are valid on Amtrak trains to EWR station?
By the way, I agree that the rail service to EWR is a wonderful improvement over what preceded it. I just feel (a) JFK will be better, especially if they add more trains to Howard Beach, but even if they don't and (b) the variability of the waiting time at Penn/Newark for an EWR train is a real disadvantage. Better to have 3 tph at regular intervals of 20 minutes than to have 4 tph that might end up being spaced so that you have to wait half an hour some times.
Of course, NJT doesn't want to space its 3 trains at 20 minute intervals because 2 are NEC trains and 1 is a North Jersey Coast train, so regular spacing to EWR would mean irregular spacing to the NEC stations.
"I forgot about that. NJT tickets are valid on Amtrak trains to EWR station? "
No, they are not. So Amtrak service is a "premium" service (though its running time is the same). However, if you buy an Amtrak ticket, your AirTrain ride is free.
"Of course, NJT doesn't want to space its 3 trains at 20 minute intervals because 2 are NEC trains and 1 is a North Jersey Coast train, so regular spacing to EWR would mean irregular spacing to the NEC stations."
You are correct. I meant that, perhaps, NJT could add a train or two to the schedule (not every train stops at EWR, but you can correct me if I'm wrong). That bottleneck called the Hudson tube is a problem, though.
Lower Manhattan has equally convenient access to JFK: A train to Howard Beach and then the shuttle bus, or A train to Lefferts and then the Q10, or 3 train to New Lots and then the B15.
"Lower Manhattan has equally convenient access to JFK: A train to Howard Beach and then the shuttle bus, or A train to Lefferts and then the Q10, or 3 train to New Lots and then the B15."
Sorry, not even a close comparison. The 3 train option is laughable, in fact, but you already know that.
The A train will become reasonable as the ADA rebuild of Howard Beach is completed and AirTrain begins service. When the LIRR-AirTrain service begins in several months,JFK will be competitive with EWR in terms of rail access. Not until then.
(When the LIRR-AirTrain service begins in several months)
I thought it was early 2004, assuming no delays created by the accident.
It was originally scheduled for early 2003, but the accident pushed everything back.
Why do you call the 3 train option laughable? I used it to get home from JFK in February, and except for a long wait during the bus driver's break at JFK (which could be alleviated by changing the schedule), all went well. I had to make two transfers, but one was cross-platform. All of the other options, including the future AirTrain options, will require two non-cross-platform transfers. The most convenient option of all, of course, would be direct A service from the airport (from which I'd have to transfer only once, to the 1), but you don't seem to like that option.
Via the A or the 3, it's currently easier to get to JFK than to Newark from lower Manhattan. Newark entails two transfers, at least one of which is much longer than the transfer to any of the three buses to JFK (shuttle, Q10, B15). (I've never ridden Newark AirTrain so I don't know how bad that transfer is. Is it cross-platform? Is there a lot of walking?)
And it's faster and cheaper, too.
"Why do you call the 3 train option laughable? I used it to get home from JFK in February, and except for a long wait during the bus driver's break at JFK (which could be alleviated by changing the schedule), all went well"
You had to leave the subway station to catch your bus, and you had to wait for your bus outside. And your bus was traffic-dependent at the airport. None of those apply to AirTrain.
"All of the other options, including the future AirTrain options, will require two non-cross-platform transfers."
You may care about that, but few others will, especially since the transfers are indoors, climate controlled, with elevators.
"Via the A or the 3, it's currently easier to get to JFK than to Newark from lower Manhattan."
Unless you've got a lot of luggage of course. :0)
"Newark entails two transfers, at least one of which is much longer than the transfer to any of the three buses to JFK (shuttle, Q10, B15). (I've never ridden Newark AirTrain so I don't know how bad that transfer is. Is it cross-platform? Is there a lot of walking?) "
You just answered your own question and disproved your own points.
"The most convenient option of all, of course, would be direct A service from the airport (from which I'd have to transfer only once, to the 1), but you don't seem to like that option."
I do like that option. MTA didn't like that option, and chose not to pursue it. Don't complain to me; complain to them. You have email access to MTA now - use it.
If only the PA weren't so quick to throw up the AirTrain. Now there could be 2 projects to serve Kennedy Airport faster, where they could have been integrated into 1.
I can't remember... does anyone know how many Public Hearings were held about the construction of the AirTrain? Or is the PA not obliged to do so?
"If only the PA weren't so quick to throw up the AirTrain. Now there could be 2 projects to serve Kennedy Airport faster, where they could have been integrated into 1. "
If the PA hadn't been so quick to throw up AirTrain, there would be no hope of airport service at all. The ONLY reason we might have the money to do what Bloomberg is thinking about is because terrorists killed 3,000 people near the end of 2001, and Washington is helping NYC rebuild. And the downtown JFK link is just an idea right now, nothing more. Any talk of lack of integration is nonsense.
AirTrain is already linked to two services.
"I can't remember... does anyone know how many Public Hearings were held about the construction of the AirTrain? Or is the PA not obliged to do so?"
I attended and spoke at hearings, I read the EIS documents, and I wrote to the FAA, the PA and telephoned virtually every local public official in Queens during the period between 1995 and 2000. I visited the local AirTrain office on Archer Av a couple of times.
It was a widely reported process. You could have done the same thing I did.
Ron, you have great faith that the city/state won't rob Peter to pay Paul. I don't.
Based on the finanical gymnastics during tight budget periods over the past 55 years, I have my doubts the politicians in charge will be able to say "no" when some bean counter comes up with the inevitable proposal to shift funds from Project A to Project B. And while the PA and federal funding will be a factor if it does get built, given the pricetag, expect people from New Jersey and their elected officials to squawk about building a line that has no benefit to them if the PA's contribution comes in at $1 billion-plus.
Hope I'm wrong, but based on what happened to the 1950 Second Ave. funds and the 1970 Second Ave. funds, I'm not brimming with confidence that the rules won't be bent a third time, if the JFK link truly does become the fair-haired boy of NYC transit infrastructure projects.
"And while the PA and federal funding will be a factor if it does get built, given the pricetag, expect people from New Jersey and their elected officials to squawk about building a line that has no benefit to them if the PA's contribution comes in at $1 billion-plus. "
New Jersey doesn't get a veto over the recovery pot. They can squawk all they want.
"Based on the finanical gymnastics during tight budget periods over the past 55 years, I have my doubts the politicians in charge will be able to say "no" when some bean counter comes up with the inevitable proposal to shift funds from Project A to Project B. "
You're comparing Apples to Oranges. Nothing before 1982 is relevant, due to the Capital Plan process. And Shelly Silver is going to have something to say if there is a move to shift A to B in a way that would kill SAS. And Silver can single-handedly kill anything that smacks of removing a project that he already got sign-off on.
As for the PA and downtown funds, New Jersey can't do anything about the relief funds specifically designated for New York. That's already been consigned by FEMA to the city. But if enough people in New Jersey made noises about too much PA money outside of that $4.5 billion going to a rail link to JFK, the New Jersey reps on the Port Authority board could make life absolutely miserable for Pataki, Bloomberg or whoever is in charge at the time the deal finally does go down.
If that's the case and New York is faces with an if/or choice, then we'll see if there are any budget shenanigans in shifting funds. The Capital Plan may be working, but it's not sacroscinct, and the people whose predacessors gave New York the 368-day year for budget purposes could find a way to shift the money around if they really wanted to.
You miss the point. Where would the tunnel from the LIRRs Atlantic Avenue branch go? According to the RPA's Metrolink Plan, which they are pushing, it would go into the Second Avenue Subway, which would also in some way be connected by a spur to Grand Central. Ergo, the new tunnel could, and probably would, be part of the Second Avenue, not an alternative to it. They are promising an even bigger unbuilt improvement.
But as of now, I haven't seen any direct tie-in between the two plans other than the RPA proposal. The feeling I get is the downtown supporters of the JFK rail line want empty trains for boarding there en route to JFK, not trains shared with Second Ave. or any other B Division route that would already have passengers when theyu arrive downtown.
"just about everyone would benefit except for those living/working on Long Island and working/living in downtown Brooklyn or along the Atlantic Ave. corridor."
If you live in souther or central Nassau or Suffolk counties and work somewhere around the Brooklyn Academy of Music, it's a bad deal. Just about everyone else would come off better under the plan, and the current LIRR trains that go to Brooklyn could be shifted to Grand Central (when that connector's built) or Penn Station so there isn't a shortage of outbound trains for riders changing at Jamaica.
Most of those working in Downtown Brooklyn would benefit as well. Most of the businesses that draw employees from Long Island are a long distance from Atlantic Terminal, and in any event crossing the intersection of Flatbush, Atlantic and 4th on foot is dangerous and unpleasant. If the line featured a second station further into Downtown Brooklyn, say at Smith Street, it would be beneficial.
One of my disappointments with the Atlantic Avenue staion reconstruction is there is no underground passageway from the LIRR to the Northwest corner of Flatbush and Atlantic. Given all the trains in the area at multiple levels, however, such a passageway would probaby cost big bucks if it is possible at all.
(They'd want those trains to come in empty.)
The super-express along Atlantic Avenue could terminate at the LIRR platform level in Jamaica. The entire Jamaica station could have Metrocard fare control, with a double fare charged -- and a second fare charged to exit. The same could be true in Downtown Brooklyn, and at JFK. So the only people boarding in Downtown would be those willing to pay a double fare before switching to another subway or bus, and LIRR/JFK riders.
Regular city riders from Jamaica would take the Super J. Regular transit riders from north of Downtown would have a $2.00 (or portion thereof with discount) incentive to get off the Second Avenue and change to another subway before the LIRR riders got on.
Most of those working in Downtown Brooklyn would benefit as well. Most of the businesses that draw employees from Long Island are a long distance from Atlantic Terminal, and in any event crossing the intersection of Flatbush, Atlantic and 4th on foot is dangerous and unpleasant. If the line featured a second station further into Downtown Brooklyn, say at Smith Street, it would be beneficial.
One of my disappointments with the Atlantic Avenue staion reconstruction is there is no underground passageway from the LIRR to the Northwest corner of Flatbush and Atlantic. Given all the trains in the area at multiple levels, however, such a passageway would probaby cost big bucks if it is possible at all.
(They'd want those trains to come in empty.)
The super-express along Atlantic Avenue could terminate at the LIRR platform level in Jamaica. The entire Jamaica station could have Metrocard fare control, with a double fare charged -- and a second fare charged to exit. The same could be true in Downtown Brooklyn, and at JFK. So the only people boarding in Downtown would be those willing to pay a double fare before switching to another subway or bus, and LIRR/JFK riders.
Regular city riders from Jamaica would take the Super J. Regular transit riders from north of Downtown would have a $2.00 (or portion thereof with discount) incentive to get off the Second Avenue and change to another subway before the LIRR riders got on.
If you've been paying attention you already know he's done that more than once.
"As for the PA and downtown funds, New Jersey can't do anything about the relief funds specifically designated for New York. That's already been consigned by FEMA to the city. But if enough people in New Jersey made noises about too much PA money outside of that $4.5 billion going to a rail link to JFK,"
They total amount going to NY is $21.4 billion. Not all of that is transit money, to be sure, but it's not up to New Jersey to decide how it gets spent.
" the New Jersey reps on the Port Authority board could make life absolutely miserable for Pataki, Bloomberg or whoever is in charge at the time the deal finally does go down."
You're expending a lot of effort - to what I'm not sure. But I do like your pro-transit attitude.
Do you live in NY? Even if you don't, and if you have enough interest in this, why not make some noise of your own? If you have time to post on Subtalk, you have time to write or call elected officials with your concerns. They need to hear from you.
Oh, and use the Postal Service. Email gets deleted too often without being read.
My cynicism towards what might happen is probably based on hearing my dad's stories about the workings of the PA, Bob Moses and city government in general when I was growing up and he was working for the late-lamented Herald-Tribune (scarily, one of my first memories of of Bob Moses at the 1960 World's Fair groundbreaking ceremony). Obviously nothing stays in stasis forever and things may have changed for the better in terms of who the PA looks out for.
I actually do think the West Side extension of the Flushing line will get built if New York wins the 2012 Olympic bid, because there will be too many politicians and business leaders facing embarassment if there was no easy mass transit access to the new West Side stadium (an all the offices Bloomberg wants to build there). And it's farily clear that a lot of people with a lot of money and influence support the JFK-downtown plan. But the Second Ave. subway has Sheldon Silver, and .... who? Silver's certainly powerful, but it would help if there were other people with clout publicly lining up behind the project.
As I said to Larry in another part of this thread, if they were to go with the RPA plan, tie the Second Ave. subway into a new East River tunnel and recapture the Atlantic Ave. branch of the LIRR for a connection to the Airtrain and a one-seat ride to lower Manhattan, that would be the best of both worlds. I'm just not sure those interested in the JFK link want to mingle with the regular subway riders, and given the mass transit construction activity in New York over the past 63 years, I'm not sure there will be enough money around to do both and also do a west side Flushing extension.
All three done togehter would be the biggest single burst of construction since the original IND Eighth Ave-Concourse-Fulton work was built, and it would be great to see. But I'm less optimistic that the people in charge or a lot of the NIMBYs out there, can have that wide a vision of the long-term benefits to New York.
"Unfortunately, I've been out of New York for over a decade now -- in and out of D.C. and Texas -- so my voice would have limited effect -- well my writing anyway; they'd see the postmark and know I'm from out of town. :-) "
That's OK. Don't underestimate your clout, either. Tell them you visit often, and when you do you rely on the subway. Visitors are important, especially now. NY's economy needs you, so your opinion counts for something.
When I write, people know I live in Kansas City. But:
1) The people I write to know that I used to live in NYC and still have plenty of family and friends there.
2) The MTA has file drawers full of my correspondence, and I have a fiule drawer full of their replies
3) I've been at it so long (incl. that I've built up a certain amount of credibility. People return my phone calls, and Iknow they listen attentively to me, even if I don't end up getting all that I want.
"Unfortunately, I've been out of New York for over a decade now -- in and out of D.C. and Texas -- so my voice would have limited effect -- well my writing anyway; they'd see the postmark and know I'm from out of town. :-) "
That's OK. Don't underestimate your clout, either. Tell them you visit often, and when you do you rely on the subway. Visitors are important, especially now. NY's economy needs you, so your opinion counts for something.
When I write, people know I live in Kansas City. But:
1) The people I write to know that I used to live in NYC and still have plenty of family and friends there.
2) The MTA has file drawers full of my correspondence, and I have a fiule drawer full of their replies
3) I've been at it so long (incl. public hearings) that I've built up a certain amount of credibility. People return my phone calls, and Iknow they listen attentively to me, even if I don't end up getting all that I want.
Hmmmm, maybe.
The MTA/TA is going to finish the LIRR/Grand Central connection despite the loss of the bond issue. They are also doing studies (again) of the extention of the Flushing line in Manhattan and the Second Ave STUBway, tunnel from SI to Brooklyn, etc., but what will they spend the real money on next .... ?
If they can get lots of bucks from Fed.s, State & Port Authority, that might be it. Peter Kalihon, at MTA, may want to do something that he can put his name on.
Mr t__:^)
I can't help thinking it would be far cheaper to just run all 8 tph on the A to Howard Beach and extend the C to Lefferts. Only 35 minutes from Chambers to Howard Beach. Far better access than to LGA or Newark. The only annoyance is that with the current 4 tph to Howard beach you can wait quite a while.
Going to the airport isn't a problem: take whichever branch of the A comes first and transfer to either the shuttle bus or the Q10, as appropriate.
Returning is where the uncertainty hits. Or is it best to just take whichever bus comes first?
I've oftened wondered why they wouldnt send the C to Lefferts.Is it because they would lose the direct express service they had for so long,or is there some other reason.
Probably the first reason.
Also, consider this: If all A trains went to the Rockaways, you'd have to increase the amount of rolling stock on the line to maintain express headways. So one possible reason (not the only one) for the current service pattern is related to the number of cars and crews needed to serve the A line.
(If all A trains went to the Rockaways, you'd have to increase the amount of rolling stock on the line to maintain express headways. )
They would never run all As to the Rockaways in the rush hour, when there are already 9 As from the Rockaways and 6 from Lefferts. So it's not a rolling stock issue (which applies only at rush hour), it's a crew pay issue.
One thought for the non-rush: Cs to Lefferts, half of As to Howard Beach, half to Far Rock. Minimal increase in crew salaries, definite increase in service to JFK.
For 8hrs pay.. how many round trips do they make?
Ah, so you wouldn't expect the C to occupy the Leffertsbranch solely at all times.
I like your post. Perhaps you could send that, as a letter to MTA. As Airtrain's opening day approaches, they'll need to hear opinions like yours.
Serpents of steel slinking through the ancient, steel-lined labyriniths beneath the teeming thoroughfares above.....red serpents of steel,swallowing up hoards of restless humanity, only to exhale them again in a moment. Red steel serpents with glowing electric eyes, forever chasing the darkness and never catching up with it. Red steel serpents, relics of a bygone age that has disappeared down the echoing tunnels of time. Screeching, rumbling, rattling; wide awake even while the restless city above finally succumbed to slumber.Red steel serpents, living reminders of a long-ago past.
Well today at the NYA/LIRR Fresh Pond yard I saw some interesting sightings. All coupled together in the same train was:
-I didn't see all the numbers, but the set of R142's with #6880 is now on the property.
-a set of LIRR M7's next to the R142's
-And LIRR DM30 #500 is now back on the property also and was in the same train with the R142's and M7's.
It's no surprise that I dream frequently of subways...but, I have to say, one of the top ten was one where I saw an articulated (two-unit) Lo-V sitting on the shuttle track at Times Sq. They looked like convential Lo-Vs, BUT, the rear ends of both cars were very rounded, (the same type of design on 1940s and 50s vintage Flxible Clipper buses)and had a Triplex-type passageway between the units. I often said I was going to make a model of this "dream train" one day, but never have....guess I have to one of these days. Trust me, it was an AWESOME looking car!!
An error has occured
The server could not find the message (465471) you requested. Perhaps it has been expired or deleted, or you followed a broken link.
Why do I so often get this message when I click on the first posting listed? Even with your standards of efficiency, you can't delete things THAT quickly, Dave!
You beat me to the punch. I'm having the same problem.
So have I.
465471 is:
: SEPTA Roosevelt Boulevard final draft report
Posted by R6 on Wed Mar 26 18:37:49 2003, in response to Re: SEPTA Roosevelt Boulevard final draft report, posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Tue Mar 25 17:37:02 2003.
"Suburb-dominant" my ass. If they were so dominant in the suburbs, would there not be a restored R8 line to Newtown?
Or do you mean the majority of the Board resides in the suburbs? If THAT'S the case, I see your logic clearly. Still, they must be mostly from the Main Line, Chester County, and Delaware County, otherwise the R8 line to Newtown would have been restored by now. And I'm reluctant to say Delco is represented, as it's taking forever to get the R3 going to Wawa (and POSSIBLY West Chester) again.
As far as this goes, it's SVM vs. Roosevelt Blvd. Suburbs vs. City. You see how dead in the water the SVM thing is now... If suburban dominance does exist here, it's not worth much. However, with Ed Rendell in Harrisburg now, order may be restored. I personally would hope the Blvd. Line comes into play first, it'd be overall more useful than anything going to Reading, and it wouldn't jeapordize anything else (knowing SEPTA, with the Blvd line around, they'd STILL leave the R, 1, 14, and 20 bus routes where they are now, especially if, after all these years, Routes C, 21, and 31 still exist)
Next time you get such an error message, press the REFRESH button.
Your computer was showing you a cached page. But the target page that you wanted had been deleted.
Press refresh (or set up your browser to *always* reaload), the offending post will dissapear.
Elias
Come on, the posts aren't being deleted. What's going on is that the database entry for the post is being made before the file containing the text gets written. There's a small lag there which becomes noticable during peak hours.
Thanks for patching it!
What type of equipment is used on the Franklin Shuttle these days?
2-car R68 trains
Thanks.....oh, wait...R68s?? NO RAILFAN WINDOWS?? AWWW, SHUCKS!!
Actually, railfan windows might be possible.
Most R-68's are in married pairs (or are they four-car sets?), but there are nine singles assigned to the shuttle.
In principle, I don't see why they couldn't run with the transverse cabs facing inward and the narrow cabs at the operating ends.
OPTO would have to go, though.
Those R-68 railfan windows are huge. It's too bad they're always facing into the next car.
In the beginning, R68s were married pairs. Now they have all been converted into four-car units. All the parts and equipment have been taken out of those small cabs so it is impossible to operate out of them. The TA wanted that particular equipment to be operated through the transverse cabs only.
Well...scratch out railfan windows on the Franklin Shuttle.......where will it all end??
When the last R32 is retired. Railfan windows are a rapidly disappearing relic.
>>>In the beginning, R68s were married pairs.<<
Incorrect, R-68s were singles when new, as were R-68As/62s/62As.
Peace,
ANDEE
As for the Frankin Shuttle have a Rail Fan Windows, it is possable in one direction. Headinf to Propect Park the T/O dose not have to oven up on the off side. So they can put a small cab in that direction, the cabs still have C/R controlers in them as well as a shuttle switch.
By the way, what way the resion for the smaller cabs to have a C/R controler in them anyway. Since the end door are kept locked becouse they car 75" cars. I think the first time I rode the R68 it was the test set on it's 30 day inserive test. I was going to Yankees stadum to see them play(I am a Mets fan). I thought that it was stuppid to do this. I could not tell my friend that I was with becouse he is not a train buff like myself.
Robert
Actually its not so much for the conductor, but originally the half width cab was meant to have a second operating position for the T/O if other than head car operation was required. Instead of having to go back 2 cars, the T/O would just have to go back 1.
You are right; they did have operating controls in the small cabs so they were single units. Thanks for the correction.
The nine R-68's assigned to the shuttle are still single units. I don't know if they still have operating controls in the small cabs but I imagine they do.
I don't think that the R68's could be run in that manner anymore with the line completely OPTO.
Unfortunately, R-68's exclusively (dedicated pairs).
Yeah...I found that out! Thanks for the input anyway! CC
Have you ever rode the new and improved Franklin Shuttle? It really is a big difference between night and day. You can actually see your own hands at Botanic Garden.
If you haven't read up on the Franklin Ave shuttle, it's right here
The R68 Trainsets are used on the Shuttle, BTW, Do you look through this website at all? Because alot of your questions are right here on www.nycsubway.org
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
been hearing romors about the R line becomeing all R32 by next month.
if this is true,then what about the R46 from that line,where will they
go,and will the R32,s for that line come from the jamaica yard?
til next time
All R32? Hmmm..... Maybe those R46s will add to the G Line and become 6 Car again maybe? And where will the R32s come from to make the R Line 100% R32?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Since the R line is a Queens Divsion line, and most of Queens Division's equipment is based at Jamaica Yard, more than likely the equipment will come from there. The R-46s might go back to the F (F becoming entirely R-46), or even the E, although going back to the F will relieve many conductors there who hate the increased presence of the R-32 there, which meant standing all the way from 179 to Avenue X! Wouldn't be surprised if some go to the G, since I had heard sporadic talk of 6-car trains making a comeback on the G. These, though, are just best guess choices, because with NYCT, nothing is for certain.
"Wouldn't be surprised if some go to the G, since I had heard sporadic talk of 6-car trains making a comeback on the G."
YES!!!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
That's what this pic looks like. Am I seeing things?
Call me stupid, but how else would you get in and out of a Subway car?
They were called gate cars for a reason: people entered and exited the car in the front, through a metal gate. Like a house.
Those doors were added to aid in loading an unloading at Park Row, IIRC. They were sealed and unused after a certain time. Trying to recall what Cars had Center Doors. 600, 700, and 900 Series Cars I believe... Calling Karl B and Larry Gault!
-Stef
You answered it exactly right, Stef!
Even I was too young to have seen them used, My favorite car, 902, had side doors. They were sealed before my time, and on the inside, were modified to have seats right in front of the door area.
The purpose was for the faster unloading or loading of passengers at Park Row, which had tremendous crowds. I think someone said that they also used those side doors at Sands St. They supposedly used only the end platforms at other stations.
Thanks Stef; from "The Brooklyn Elevated" I see the following cars listed with center doors;
600-601, 620-627, 700-758, 759-760, 800-832, 833-858, 859, 900-935 these built with center doors.
998's center door was added in 1946 for rubbish storage.
This list may not be complete. The old BRT boys should be able to fine tune it.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks. Is there a place where I can find a copy of the Brooklyn Elevated?
-Stef
Stef: The Brooklyn Elevated by James C Greller and Edward B Watson was the first of four books dealing with subway and el cars. The others are New York City Subway Cars, Interborough Fleet and Subway Cars of the BMT. For some reason it has never been reprinted.
It was published by N.J.International Inc. of 77 West Nicholai Street, Hicksville, NY 11801 if this is of any help.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
On occasion a copy of Brooklyn Elevatedis offered on eBay.
It does not seem to be as scarce as the Cunningham or Kahn books.
Try the East Penn Trolley Meet this May. I am sure some vendor will have one - I usually see it at shows like this one.
--Mark
Everytime a redbird thread starts on SubTalk, I get all nervous and run up to the Bronx, and today was no exception. I literally ran out of the office at 5pm and over to the Lex. While I was waiting for my uptown (6) at 23 St, I saw (4) Redbird set #1 going southbound. I thought my day was ruined, but I decided to head up to the Bronx anyhow. Luck was on my side, and just as the sun was setting behind the thick cloud cover, a redbird set appeared. It was coming from 161 St and heading nb. I was at 170 St. I told my camera to use everything it had to get this photo in focus and with proper lighting. The resulting photo looks good at 40% size reduction, but is grainy at full size. But that's fine for our purposes! The photo I describe is the first one below. If they haven't switched any of the cars since yesterday, then according to David J. Greenberger's observations, the car should be #9108.
I know this because, after I took the first photo, I jumped on and rode the redbird up to the next stop, 170 St. There, I hopped off and got a photo of the rear car. It is #9232, and can be seen in the second photo below. In order to get the photo to not be blurry, I had to prop the camera against the light pole so I couldn't get a full car length shot. So this was (4) Redbird set #2. I let set #2 leave and I crossed over to the sb side to head home.
I was about to get on a sb silverbird (4), when what should come up on the nb side but (4) Redbird set #3! The sb silverbird pulled away and I was able to get a few photos of set #3. All of the photos came out blurry, but the one I posted below, is the best of the bunch. Fortunately car #9294's number board is visible. But what is interesting to note is that the last car of this train, the one to the right of 9294, has no number! Well, actually, the paint on the number boards is almost all stripped off. Does anyone know what car # this is?
Finally, I just want to say that I know you must all think I'm crazy because I'm planning on doing the (L) thing at 5am monday morning, but what about this stunt: since I work till at least 5pm every weekday, I can't get to the Bronx after work before it gets dark out. And I want to get some final (4) Redbird photos outsoors and in daylight. SO, this Friday morning, I plan on getting up extra early, going up to the Bronx, and hopefully get some photos of the redbirds during the early and mid parts of the morning rush. I just have to be at work in midtown by 9am. I think I can pull it off. Wish me luck! Enjoy the photos below.
R-33 9108 @ 167th St (4)
R-33 9232 @ 170th St (4)
R-33 9294 @ 170th St (4)
Take Pride,
Brian
I forgot to mention that one of the cars in (4) redbird set #1 was 9260. I hope that helps someone out there figure out the car numbers of the entire set.
Take Pride,
Brian
Thanks for sharing....BTW is daylight savings time starting next week (April)? You may have an extra hour of light if the 4 can hold out a bit longer.
Yeah, DST starts soon (a week from this Sunday), but I don't know if the (4) will hold out that long. I seriously don't know...
---Brian
You know, this is really depressing. We all knew this day was coming, but "all of a sudden" it is here!
I can't believe in a VERY short amount of time we have to go to the 7 for the final days of the redbirds.
THEY ARE ONLY GOING TO BE ON ONE LINE!!!!!
AND ARE BANISHED FROM THE BRONX AND BROOKLYN AND ARE ONLY GOING TO BE IN THREE STATIONS IN MANHATTAN!!!!!
(okay, I have the paper bag over my mouth...breathe in......breathe out.....breathe in.....breathe out.....)
The SubTalkers up at Branford this weekend better be prepared to hear a lot of moaning and groaning from me about the the end of the redbirds. I don't think I will be able to control myself.
---Brian
....breathe in....breathe out.....breathe in......breathe out.......
[In order to get the photo to not be blurry, I had to prop the camera against the light pole so I couldn't get a full car length shot.]
Should've brought a tripod with you.
[Finally, I just want to say that I know you must all think I'm crazy because I'm planning on doing the (L) thing at 5am monday morning,...]
Not to worry, some of us feel you ARE certifiable :)
He's insane! He's insane! I'm on the way to Creedmore, need a lift?
-Stef
Should've brought a tripod with you.
"Restricted areas and activities. Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance to the provisions of these rules."
Very nice, as always.
Did you notice something strange about 9108/9109? It has no yard stickers! Furthermore, there isn't even room for yard stickers between the number plates and the American flags. Now, this is the pair that the 5 got rid of a while back and the 4 salvaged. This is just my guess, but perhaps all the stickers (yard stickers and flags alike) had already been pulled off. When the pair returned to service, the yard stickers weren't replaced, but the flags were.
Here are five photos from President's Day:
Very nice, as always.
Thanks.
Did you notice something strange about 9108/9109? It has no yard stickers!
No, I didn't notice, I was too busy taking the photo. But did you see the photo of the car with no car number?
9108-09 has never had stickers beneath the number plates since it re-emerged from the paint shop in 1993. Cars 9108 and 9109 initially had stickers when it was painted into Redbird Colors in the late 80s. In 1993, 9108 was fire damaged and put out of action for several months.
-Stef
Fortunately car #9294's number board is visible. But what is interesting to note is that the last car of this train, the one to the right of 9294, has no number! Well, actually, the paint on the number boards is almost all stripped off. Does anyone know what car # this is?
I don't see a marker light on 9294's bulkhead, so I'm guessing the mystery car is 9295.
ok, thanks
Am I the only one who notices that the one in the first photo is lit as "LOCAL" instead of "EXP"? Isn't that kind of strange? Or was there a GO on the 4?
Well the 4 is local when it's in The Bronx. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, but I don't understand what you are describing.
---Brian
"Good-bye my friends, Good-bye! The end of the line is nigh! I've watched your faces through the years show anger, smiles, and tears...although you ridiculed my looks and said I was too slow...I got you there and brought you back, through rain and sleet and snow.Goodbe-bye my friends,Good-bye....parting is such sweet sorrow!!"
" Goodnight sweet prince and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest"
by Bill Shakesphere.
I quoted these words on a lonely night November 28,1966 when I met the final "Phoebe Snow", Erie-Lackawanna #2 uopn its arrival in Hoboken, NJ.
Larry, RedbirdR33
You're making me cry. The redbirds are enough. Don't bring the wonderful Phoebe Snow into this mess.
---Brian
Brian: I'm afraid that now I seem to be going to more "last runs" than "first runs." and I'm not that old.
Larry, RedbirdR33
So come with me to the "first run" on the (L) Monday morning!
---Brian
Man, don't make me really start to cry! As an all around Jersey trainbuff, I spent many a happy childhood hour down at the old Lackawanna Terminal in Hoboken in the early and mid 60s......and Miss Phoebe was the most glamorous gal under the old Bush trainsheds.....That square tailed tavern-lounge obs, the sleek E-8s at the head, the jumble of ex Erie and Lackawanna head-end cars...the smell of diesel fuel, steam, and hot oil.........AH, MAN! TAKE ME BACK!!
I just wish I was able to see it once like it used to be...
---Brian
You've now made the same post about the Redbirds so many times you can have them published in a book that would make War and Peace look to be as long as a guide to French military victory.
Hey, have to give a fitting farewell to these faithful old warriors.....
At the time they were replaced by R12s and 14s (1969), how many Lo-Vs (including WF Stienways) were in operation ? What series were they?
The "regular" Lo-V's numbered about 12-15 at most; most of them were the unmotorized trailers. There were some motors as well. I do remember trailers 4902, 4903 for sure -- and motors 5625, 5628 for sure but I know there were others.
Normally, a trainset would be made up like this:
WF Steinway Lo-V cab facing north
WF Steinway Lo-V cab facing north
Regular Lo-V trailer
WF Steinway Lo-V cab facing south
WF Steinway Lo-V cab facing south
If a regular Lo-V motor was used, it just replaced one of the WF Steinway Lo-V's.
As for which cars faced north and which faced south, there wasn't any set numbers -- the trains could be turned around up in the 239th Street Yard where the Third Avenue "el" worked from.
It was with great sorrow that I read the report that former NY Senator, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, passed away today at the age of 76.
Senator Moynihan was a controversial at times, but for the most part, did a great job for New York State, and his country. Unfortunately, neither of the current Senators could ever come close to Senator Moynihan's stature, but that is my humble opinion.
May he rest in peace.
Jim K.
Chicago
Amen to that. Moynihan was a friend of the mass transit community, and for that fact alone he will be sorely missed. But his stature and intellect and influence go far beyond transit issues.
With regard to your comment about New York's two current senators, my feeling (and I am a lifelong New Yorker - 50+ years) is that the senior senator has the potential to be another Moynihan. The junior senator is a self-promoter who is using an adapted state to further shameless personal ambitions.
It was with great sorrow that I read the report that former NY Senator, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, passed away today at the age of 76.
Senator Moynihan was a controversial at times, but for the most part, did a great job for New York State, and his country. Unfortunately, neither of the current Senators could ever come close to Senator Moynihan's stature, but that is my humble opinion.
He was a fine senator. His successor is not.
Outside of a few cranks on both ends of the political spectrum, Moynihan was one of the rare politicans to earn the respect of both Democrats and Republicans, and to serve elequently and effectively under both as an advisor and ambassador (and anyone who thinks all our problems with the U.N. have just cropped up in the last 12 months doesn't remember Moynihan's berating of the Security Council while ambassador in 1975 after the debacle over their condemnation of Israel and Yassir Arafat's gun-totin' rootin-tootin' appearance before the council members).
True. It is difficult to find anyone in the current government, anywhere, who qualifies for the statesman epithet.
An extremely erudite Puck, is how I remember him.
John
We've lost a true statesman. His accomplishments are still with us.
The ONLY New York State incumbent politician I EVER voted for, with the exception of the one time my Assemblyman was allegedly part of a plot to overthrow Silver, thus earning my vote.
I take that back: I voted for Rudy the third time, breaking the tie in his favor, and later regretted it (except when I remember who he was running against).
That would be fitting. He's certainly more important in the city's history than Major Deegan, along with Bruckner, Van Wyck, and Sheridan.
Not that this is a reason to name a county in NY State after her…
John
AWFUL title! It says precisely nothing as to what the "other" Realms and Territories are - I mean any Queen is Queen of her own Realms and Territories! </British political rant 50 years out of date>
Did you see this bit from the Queen Mum’s funeral? Reading of The Styles and Titles of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth:
Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness.
The only thing missing was Uncle Tom Cobbley!
John
Actually, I have to say that the Brits do Pomp and Circumstance better than anyone else in the world. Of course, it helps that we have all manner of historical costumes stored in our wardrobesclosets.
If your crappy internet connection will allow you have a look here and click on the Last Post and National Anthem section. Whatever you think of monarchies, the ceremony is quite impressive.
John
Actually, a year or two ago, the "Love Stories" channel carried the ENTIRE coronation of the Queen on film, and it was QUITE fascinating, doubly so for someone like me of combined Scots/Irish heritage. I almost felt like breaking into a round of "Turalu and kick the Pope" but yes, it was most interesting.
Having spent a good amount of my life in front of Mr. Microphone (and half those with tally lights and a floor director in my face as well) the thought of saying all that in a single breath would have left me wheezing, collapsed behind my desk. :)
Hurrah! That's the way the Abyssinian Campaign was won!
FID DEF still is.
He will sorely be missed as the likes of his kind won't likely be seen again in the world of American politics. He was a rare breed...may he rest in peace.
He understood the political game as the founding fathers drafted, and made it work.
It was an amazing contrast between Daniel Patrick and Senator Pot Hole. Senator Pot Hole, who was a predecessor to the likes of Robert Torricelli, did a lot for New York in his own right.
Politicians today could learn from Senator Moyihan!
This is being written by a dyed in wool Republican.
May the Lord admire this man and allow him to rest in peace.
Jim K.
Chicago
This is to confirm that R-142 Trainset #39, consisting of 6806-10 and 6886-90 have entered service on the 5, as of today, which pretty much spelled the end of the surviving Redbird Set on the 5.
Also on the grapevine, more R-142s came down the Hudson Line this past Monday. 1131-35 and 1146-50 have arrived. It should be noted that these are OFFICIALLY the first Option II Cars to be delivered.
I mistakenly thought that Cars 1101-1130 were Option II. They are Option I, formerly 7181-7210. 1131-1250 will all be delivered under the Option II Order.
Waiting for an R-142 Delivery as we speak....
-Stef
So these new Option II deliveries will displace the redbirds left on the (4)?
---Brian
Exactly!!!
1101-1250 plus 100 additional R-142s will be assigned to the 4.
-Stef
So my redbirds on the (4) are safe until you announce that additional Option II cars enter revenue service?
---Brian
They're safe for now! LOL!
-Stef
I'm planning on going to the Bronx at 7am and hanging around there for an hour and a half and you're laughing?!? Thank G-d I don't have very many worries in my life right now, but loss of the redbirds on the (4) is like my biggest worry! I have to get as many photos as I can before it is too late. Turns out that my marathon sessions up at E180 over the summer were well worth it because I never got to take photos of (5) redbirds since then. (well, except for the photos of them sleeping in the yard a couple weeks ago) And now I can't anymore.
Take Pride,
Brian
Relax, there will be plenty for you to do.
-Stef
Go and find me an R-142 Trainset running on the 4 Brian, and take a photo of it if you would kindly do me that favor, my good man.
-Stef
You mean as oppsoed to an R-142A set?
---Brian
Yes....
-Stef
Do they exist, or are you just trying to give me something to do to take my mind off the redbirds? :) I checked and the photos I took this evening were of R-142A's because I can see the raised metal bar on the sides of the car where the two sheets of stainless steel meet (at the car's beltline).
---Brian
I'm giving you something to do. And yes, they're supposed to exist.
-Stef
Yeah, but how about finding us a picture of an R-77? ;)
Would that be
R77?
or R77E?
:)
I prefer this superexpress, personally:
Is this an R77?
I'm sure the backdrop has changed since I took that picture last month.
But you'll probably see R-142's, not R-33's.
Damn! Wish I had my camera this past past Saturday. I rode an R142, in service on the 4, from Grand Central to Grand Concourse.
Of course, it was borrowed from the 5 due to the big 4 line G.O. in the Bronx, but I do count it as my first ride on a Bombardier train on the 4.
Holy Sh*t!!!! YOU JUST MADE ME THINK OF EAST 180TH STREET!!!!!
The White Plains/Dyre line used to be 100% redbird! And it's now all silver!?!?!?! I haven't been there since the majority of trains were reds!
....breathe in....breathe out....breathe in.....breathe out.....
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make this harder for you. We are all going through this difficult time together.
---Brian
Geesh, that's quick! I just saw 6808 at Fresh Pond yard all wrapped up this afternoon around 2:00 in Fresh Pond Yard! I took a photo, but it's still in my camera (film).
See here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=465421
You mean 6878 was at Fresh Pond.
-Stef
Actually I was dyslexic in that post, I didn't mean 6808, I meant 6880.
which pretty much spelled the end of the surviving Redbird Set on the 5.
STOP RUBBING SALT IN THE WOUND.
Sorry! I promise to behave myself....
-Stef
Some years ago, I was fortunate enough to find a tin toy friction powered subway car, made in Japan around the early 60s. It is about HO scale in size, and is in the authentic Tokyo colors of red and white. It has plastic couplers as well. Must have sold for about 59 cents 40 years ago. A short train of these would look great displayed on a shelf. I paid $10 for mine at a flea market about 8 years ago. (Imagine a tin toy REDBIRD?????)
If it is red and white, it must be a model of the trains of the Marunouchi line. Those cars were retired in the early 90s and some of them were sold to the Buenos Aires subway, where they still run on its Line B.
are those gap fillers on those cars?
Right...I had read awhile back that those old Tokyo cars were sold to South America. I recall seeing pictures of those Tokyo cars in various rail magazines and books back in the 60s.
Buenos Aires also bought subway cars from Nagoya to run on its metro.
This time we study restricted speed.
Periodically, the FRA will board a locomotive and talk with the crew on board. On occasion they will ask the crew for the definition of restricted speed. I have read in various railroad publications and also been told by Federal Inspectors that this is the single most incorrectly answered question they ask train and engine crews.
Rule 518 of the Canadian National US Operating Rules Second Edition defines restricted speed as follows:
"When a train or engine is required to move at restricted speed, it must proceed prepared to stop within one-half the range of vision short of train, engine, railroad car, roadway workers or equipment fouling the track, stop signal or derail or switch not properly lined. The crew must keep a lookout for broken rail and not exceed 20 MPH.
Comply with these requirements until the leading wheels reach a point where movement at restricted speed is no longer required or have reached the end of signaled territory."
The definition may vary slightly among railroad rulebooks, but all of the same the main components are there dealing with what you are required to be able to short of. One variation that comes to mind right away is in the NORAC (Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee) book. Their speed not to exceed is 15 MPH instead of 20 MPH.
Many times when asked for the definition of restricted speed, some veteran railroads will simply answer "20 MPH" or "15 MPH." This is most assuredly the wrong answer. Such an answer may possibly construe a less than full understanding or comprehension of restricted speed. Such an understanding could also lead to problems and perhaps some sort of episode.
When operating at restricted speed, the onus falls upon the crew involved, particularly the Engineer running the train under this circumstance. If something goes wrong, it is very likely going to be the result of exceeding restricted speed. If you are "running on the red" as it is often referred, you must keep a sharp and vigilant lookout for various railroad related obstructions. As we delve into and dissect the definition of restricted speed, I’ll give you details and explanation as to how this all works so as to help you understand exactly what this all means.
"Must proceed prepared to stop within one-half the range of vision." This statement is pretty clear and straight forward. If I can see for one-hundred car lengths, I must be able to stop within half that distance or about fifty car lengths. If I can see for a couple of miles, then I need to be able to stop within about a mile. On the other side of this coin, if I can only see clear for ten car lengths, I need to be able to stop within five car lengths. Taking into account hills and grades, curves or any other obstructions, my range of vision can change rapidly I need to consider such rapidly changing conditions as I proceed. I must also be mindful of what I am pulling around; the length and tonnage of the train as well as load and empty placement are also key factors. I must take into account good train handling techniques and practices. If I have to stop quickly, severe changes in slack can be detrimental and lead to derailments.
"Short of train, engine, railroad car, roadway workers or equipment fouling the track, stop signal or derail or switch not properly lined." This portion of the rule tells me exactly what I must be looking for and is very clear and distinct in its meaning. These are all railroad obstructions and I am watching for them. Contrary to what some lawyers have tried to state, restricted speed does not require that I stop short of some idiot who desires to drive around lowered crossing gates or ignores any warning devices installed at road crossings.
When I am required to operate at restricted speed there is normally a reason. Some main tracks are non-signaled or non-signaled when operating against the defined current of traffic and under some circumstance, both pass within yard limits. Some track that is signal protected also passes through yard limits. Under yard limit rules other trains or engines may very well be using this track and do not need any other permission other than what this rule allows. All trains or engines operating through this type of territory must take into consideration the fact they are not alone out here. All trains have to be aware of the potential for other movements within such territory.
In the yard itself on other than main track, any and all tracks may very well have activity on them and restricted speed is in effect for them but often modified to not exceed 10 MPH as opposed to the 15 or 20 MPH as the rule state. They may also delete the "looking out for broken rail" wording. On some railroads they modify the name of this rule calling it "yard speed."
Many railroads apply restricted speed on running or industrial tracks as opposed to a defined speed. Again, this places the onus on the crew involved in operating on such track. Trains may or may not be required to obtain permission to be on this track. In any event, again you may not be alone on this track and must proceed accordingly.
On main track under which block signal system rules are in effect, restricted speed will apply whenever permission is given to pass a stop signal, or when a signal indicating restricting, restricted proceed or stop and proceed is encountered. Under most circumstances, you will receive a signal in advance of the restricting type of signal. More often than not it will be an approach or possibly an approach restricting type of signal. Under normal operating circumstances you normally just don’t happen upon a restricting type of signal, there is advance warning as indicated by the signal preceding the restricting type of signal.
Oftentimes if there is a train ahead of you when being given permission to pass a stop signal, the Dispatcher or Operator might state, "Looking out for train ahead." You might be closing up on a train you are following or perhaps are going back against your own train. It could also be you are going out onto a portion of track where another train has set out an engine or cars and you are bringing them into the yard or onto another main track. But nonetheless, you are looking out for this obstruction.
There is a distinct possibility that a car or cars might have broken free and rolled out onto the main track. Or somebody has vandalized a train and uncoupled some cars from a train that was previously stopped in this area. Both of these situations have happened over the years. You don’t know what the reason is for the signal displaying a stop or restricting type of signal. Again the sharp lookout must be maintained.
In yard limits, it is very possible that a main line switch may be lined against the route in which you are authorized to use. Outside of yard limit territory, a train may have been given instructions to leave a particular switch lined and locked as they last used it. In track warrant control (TWC) territory, a specific line on the track warrant form will instruct you to observe for an improperly lined switch. On the CNIC track warrant form this item is line 20 and it reads "Be prepared to stop at following switch(es) until known to be in normal position:"
This instruction is vital in non-signaled TWC territory as there are no signals to protect the switch, only this instruction. You have no signals to govern your movements, only the track warrant and timetable speed limits. In signaled TWC territory while there are signals in place to protect any switches, the instruction on line 20 is still important.
There are also cases of vandalism. Somebody may have broken or cut off a lock at a switch and then lined or partially lined it contrary to the intended route. There are also cases where a railroad employee may have forgotten to restore a switch back to normal. It happens. In any of these cases, you are required to be able to stop short of the improperly lined switch.
The derail is mentioned as one of the items in the crew should be on the lookout for. A derail is a steel or iron device that is placed onto the rail and does exactly what it says, derails a move. These devices are used in many railroad applications. They protect main tracks from cars that might roll out of a siding, industry or yard track. The car hits the derail rolling over it and derailing instead of rolling out onto the track where it does not belong. Derails are used on tracks belonging to industries, certain railroad owned tracks where the potential or likelihood of a rollout exists and also at car and locomotive servicing facilities.
There are also portable derail used in various applications. This type of derail is not permanently mounted to the railroad structure and can be easily moved to various locations. These are often used by mechanical forces that must go out into the field to repair cars that have failed en route and were set out by a train. Maintenance of Way forces also use them to protect their roadway workers on certain segments where protection under yard limits is used as opposed to a planned work bulletin protecting their limits in writing. MofW forces may also use them to protect their equipment that is being stored and secured in a side track somewhere so that nobody shoves cars on top of or into their equipment.
Should you run over a derail on the track on which you are operating at restricted speed, you have exceeded restricted speed. You obviously failed to stop short of this derail and quite possible have now derailed your engine and/or cars you are handling.
"Splain this to me Lucy!"
"Stop signal" is a crucial part of the restricted speed rule. When operating at restricted speed for any reason, you have to be on the lookout for stop signals. They may be conveyed from a fixed signal such as a block or interlocking signal or a stop sign of fixed location. Stop signals can include a red flag placed along the right of way (which in some cases is used in conjunction with roadway workers being protected by a derail as well). Still other stop signals include a railroad employee giving a stop signal to your approaching train with a red flag or red burning fusee or even an unattended burning red fusee placed along side the track.
While we no longer use them on the CNIC, flagging rules are still in effect on some railroads. Known for years on many railroads as Rule 99, flagging rules have been used to protect stopped or disabled trains in non-signaled territories as well as for other purposes when a portion of track needs to be protected from any approaching trains.
Torpedoes are used as part of the flagging process. These are what resemble giant oversized caps and are loaded with gunpowder. They are fastened to the rail using clips. When run over by a locomotive they explode making a very loud bang. This bang is to call to the attention of the crew on the train they must immediately reduce to restricted speed and be on the lookout for a flagman who will give a stop signal. You must be able to stop before passing the flagman.
"Looking out for broken rail." Broken rails in block signal territory will normally drop the signals to a stop or restricting type of aspect. While being prepared to stop short of all the other stuff, it is virtually impossible to stop short of a broken rail. Unless it is pulled way apart, you normally don’t spot a broken rail until you get right upon it. You should be going 20 MPH or less and have your train under control so that when you find and hit the broken rail, you can stop quickly and safely without a severe or drastic change in slack. In many cases you should also be able to get stopped without derailing over the break.
On two separate occasions his past January while operating at restricted speed owing to signal indication, I found broken rails. On one I was working train 281 and heading south on the Gilman line. We were about five miles north of Gibson City when I discovered it. While I did hit and pass over the break, I was able to get the train stopped after getting the engines and the head eight cars by it. There was no change in slack which is exactly what you want so as to avoid or minimize any in train forces that may cause any run in of the slack which can in turn cause some lateral motion of the cars in the train. You don’t want to create any type of force that would cause the broken rail to move out laterally and allow cars to then drop off the rail.
The other was on the Chicago Sub in Richton Park and I found it while coming north running engine lite on train 339. On both occasions it was a bitterly cold night, the kind of weather that brings forth many rail breaks. During extremely cold weather conditions, I keep an even sharper eye pealed for breaks. You learn what to look for when observing for breaks.
In the case of the first break the rail had a clean break that had pulled a good two inches apart. The rail had separated in line and did not move side to side at all. Even though it was separated, the rail ends still lined up together. While you could feel it, it seemed more like a rough joint of two rails than a break. With the second break it was broken at a field weld and separated a bit further, about four inches. Again we got over it safely but hit was a rough ride and you could really feel it.
"Comply with these requirements until the leading wheels reach a point where movement at restricted speed is no longer required or have reached the end of signaled territory."
Under the General Code of Operating Rules and the CN US Operating Rules, once the leading wheels pass the next signal displaying a more favorable indication or the end of signaled territory, normal speed may be resumed. Up until the year 2000, the NORAC book required the entire train must pass the next signal displaying a more favorable signal or the end of signaled territory. With the release of the year 2000 issue of the NORAC book, this rule was changed to conform with what most other railroads are doing. Personally, I disagree with the leading wheels philosophy, I lean towards what NORAC used to preach, but I guess rules people and their bosses want less delays.
Now we’ll study the potential of what can and did go horribly wrong when restricted speed wasn’t closely adhered too.
A crew I know from one railroad was trying to get in and get tied up before a major holiday. All they had left to do was take their train about another seven or eight miles to its final destination, tie it down, get in a cab and head to their home terminal to tie up. They would then have the holiday off.
The snow was flying and visibility was greatly diminished. They received a restricted proceed on a block signal. In weather like this, the last type of signal you want is one that requires operating at restricted proceed. With greatly reduced visibility, you must operate slower as your range of vision is significantly reduced.
Well this crew was assuming (and you know what happens when one assumes) that being the night before a major holiday there was nobody ahead of them. They chugged along carrying this attitude with them. This false sense of security also had them exceeding restricted speed. The flashing light of the end of train device ahead of them suddenly appeared out of what seemed to be nowhere. The Engineer put his train into emergency. The Conductor jumped and the Engineer hit the deck and rode it out.
When everything came to a stop, the rear couple of cars on the stopped empty coal train they rammed were piggybacked on top of several other cars. Somewhere towards the middle of the stopped train several cars that were pushed forward upon impact were pyramided upwards. And the Engineer was injured.
Oh yes, they were in big time trouble. There is no taking your way out of this.
"Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200."
One issue I have always taken exception to is that part of the yard limits rule that does not require a highly visible marker on the tail end of the train. While this is totally legal, it is really nothing more than a corner cutting philosophy. Under yard limit rules, unless operating under a signal more favorable than approach, you must proceed at restricted speed. Rules examiners everywhere seem to think this is the coverall for any and every thing that can go wrong. However, many rules examiners have never (except during strikes) worked as a transportation department employee.
Of all the rules examiners I have ever met, most of them came out of the clerical or tower operator ranks. A few came onto the railroad right out of college and into management training programs. None of the clerks, tower operators or management trainees was (other than strike training) an Engineer or Conductor. They have not had to endure the conditions they force and require us to work under. And if you recall my piece about strikes you’ll remember what they tend to do wrong when they attempt to perform transportation employee duties.
So here is the scenario from one evening in my career; it is dark out, a little foggy and rainy and we are operating under the requirements of yard limits. We are also following a train that has no highly visible marker on the tail end as all of its movement will be made entirely within yard limits. So here I am with a 100 something car empty coal train operating at restricted speed under very poor visibility trying not to run into this guy. The crew on the train in front of us was not cooperating and clueing us in over the radio if they were slowing or stopping. Being that my visibility was so greatly restricted and they were opting for radio silence, I simply putted along at about 3 or 4 MPH. I was being as safe as one could be short of stopping the train completely.
As the late, great Dick Stair always used to say, "A stopped train is a safe train."
The Operator at one of the towers we passed was not pleased with what he considered my "lackluster" performance and so noted his displeasure on the radio to me. I quickly attempted to explain our dilemma to him but he didn’t seem to care. I’m guessing he didn’t know any better either. I would bet today he is probably a rules examiner someplace.
One evening while running in pea soup fog, we were playing the puddle jumping game of hopping from siding to siding. This would have us moving from one siding to the next and constantly getting in the clear at each of them for other trains. We were sitting in Gar Creek Siding just south of Kankakee for a meet. The Dispatcher came on the radio telling us we would head north behind this southbound we were about to meet and move on up to the siding at Kankakee to meet Amtrak 59. Being that it was this foggy, this was a courtesy on the Dispatcher’s part to let me know I could work my way down to the signal and that if it was favorable, could proceed. I could not see the signal at the north end of Gar Creek as we had stopped some forty or so cars south of it so as not to block a road crossing.
I crept on down to the signal and found it displaying an approach indication. This meant I would have to proceed prepared to stop before passing the next signal unless I could plainly see that it displayed a proceed indication. The next signal is KX where the Kankakee siding begins and also where the Conrail (in those days) Kankakee Secondary crossed and connected to us. If this signal was not displaying a proceed indication of any kind I would have to stop. So now I am looking for this signal in the fog.
Our signal system here is lacking in the regard that if we are going from the siding at Gar Creek into the siding at Kankakee or vice versa, the best signal you can receive is an approach. So here we are running in the fog looking for a signal. The fog let up a bit in town in Kankakee and I could see the signal about twenty or so cars in advance. It displayed a restricting (red over flashing red) aspect. I immediately rang up the Dispatcher and asked if there was somebody in the siding ahead of us. I was told "No, it should be clear, but I’ve had a track circuit on there all evening."
This was just wonderful news. The fog was quickly getting heavy and thick again and I could only see about ten to twenty feet ahead of the engine. So now I have to proceed prepared to stop in half this range of vision short of all that bad stuff and keep a lookout for broken rail. While I know there is no train in front of me, I do not know there is not a wrong switch or perhaps that possibly a car has rolled out of the yard here or the industrial siding a little further up. I also have virtually no chance of spotting a broken rail under such poor visibility. So I crawled along at about 1 MPH. If I was loading a coal train, this might have been a pretty good speed, but I wasn’t. I had a big long and heavy freight train with over 130 cars and Amtrak 59 was quickly approaching us. Well guess what? He was gonna get delayed.
I crept along trying to spot anything that could be bad. 59 rolled by us, down to the stop signal at KX and then waited and watched while I dragged this train big train into the siding. And waited, and waited, and waited.
Now had there been a car that partially rolled out and I smacked it, an improperly lined switch that perhaps either had me lined into another track or it was a trailing point switch that I ran through and damaged, I would have been in trouble. Never mind the fog, if something really went wrong there would be the possibility of going to an investigation and getting disciplined. See what I mean about the onus being on the crew, particularly the Engineer?
While I’m sure I was probably blamed for the big delay to Amtrak (although I was never once questioned about this episode) the real delay falls on the Dispatcher. They were aware of the heavy fog conditions as they had been told about it. However, they did not take this, or the potential for my having to operate at restricted speed owing to the track circuit indication on their screen into consideration. It would have been far better to hold us at Gar Creek instead of trying to move us up a few miles.
Back in my days at the IHB, I was called to pilot a Norfolk Southern train. The NS Engineer and I got to talking about restricted speed and testing. He told me of coming into Chicago early one morning on an intermodal train. He said it was a little on the foggy side, but not really thick and heavy. As luck would have it, he encountered a restricting signal. Being that NS is known for their methods of testing and the subsequent discipline should you fail, he told of really slowing the train down while operating at restricted speed. While no fusees or banners across the rails appeared in front of him, he told of a call on the radio to him questioning his operating so slowly.
He explained to the Trainmaster that questioned him on the radio about being required to comply with the requirements of restricted speed. And being there was a little bit of fog and his visibility was reduced, he needed to operate accordingly. He also commented that he needed to be alert for fusees, banners or even the tail end of another train. There was no response from this Trainmaster.
Periodically we are given a restricted speed test. While we never know when or where it will occur, it does at some point. Railroad officials, the FRA or both of them working together may perform the test. Failing a restricted speed test it bad for two reasons; first it means we are not properly performing our duties as Locomotive Engineers. Second it could lead to a decertification and the loss of our license for thirty days.
Having worked at several railroads, I have been exposed to several different types of restricted speed tests. Some railroads go to greater lengths than others in their testing procedures. It almost seems as if some of the types of tests conducted are almost sinister. A typical test would set up a condition to require the train to be operated at restricted speed. This could be having the Train Dispatcher give you verbal permission to pass a stop signal or possibly an official dropping a shunt on the rail to cause a block signal to display a stop and proceed or restricted proceed indication. Or you may be running on a segment of track that normally requires operation at restricted speed.
Down the road a ways a red flag or burning red fusee will be placed along side of or within the gauge of the rail, or banner with the word "BARRICADE, END OF TRAIN or STOP" written on it will be stretched across the rail. If you pass the flag or fusee, strike or break the banner, you have failed. Outside of a test and in the real world this could actually be another train, a derail placed on the tracks by Maintenance of Way forces or a switch not properly lined that has you lined into the side of another train or perhaps even into a track that is out of service.
Oftentimes the flag, fusee or banner is placed around or curve or just over the crest of a hill making it far more difficult to spot very far in advance. One test that creates a false sense of security is using a long tangent (straight and level) length of track where the next signal is plainly visible. This next signal is displaying a more favorable proceed signal such as a clear (green). As you are approaching this signal and see nothing wrong, you might believe the coast was clear so to speak and begin to start accelerating the train. Suddenly, while a bit of a distance away but short of that next signal, a lighted fusee appears or a red flag comes into view. You are operating at restricted speed and still need to stop before passing that flag or fusee.
With this last test, as sinister as it may sound, it has great merit. You could be following a very short train in the dark with a dead end of train device or perhaps you are in yard limits and this guy has no EOT at all. He is stopped in this block in front of you short of that next signal. You cannot see him but can see that signal. If you take your mind off the fact that you need to be operating at restricted speed you could very easily plow right into the rear end of this train. Or there may be a switch between you and that next signal that could be improperly lined. And then there is that broken rail issue.
Failure to perform as required under actual conditions as opposed to a test could have serious consequences including a serious wreck, serious injury or even death. Believe me in choosing between the slower train speed and the possibility for disaster; I don’t think you’ll find any Engineers, Conductors, Brakemen or railroad officials opting for the potential disaster.
I have been questioned over the years by some officials about my operation at restricted speed and going so slow, but I have never once had an official ever encourage or instruct me to violate restricted speed. While they may like the terms and conditions of it, they do understand the importance and significance of this rule.
And so it goes.
With the assistance of my friend Todd Greuter, we have developed a page about the Missouri Pacific Chicago Sub Division at his "Screaming Eagles" web site. A narration, photos and maps make up this page and I invite you all to take a look. It acts as a pretty good companion (if I do say so myself) for the columns I have written dealing with some of the experiences of my MoPac days. Pointing your web browser to
http://mo-pac.com/tuch_chicagosub_1.html and take a look. It is a work in progress and I will be adding more items and information over the next few months.
"And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes. The way it’s going, no one knows."
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2003 by JD Santucci
Anybody know exactly what time the last NB L leaves Rockaway Parkway Friday night via the Sutter Ave "S" curve?
The S Curve is gone??????
It will be this weekend. Friday is the last day of the Manhattan-bound platform. Monday at 5:00AM the new alignment starts.
With the L train running on the new alignment, it would be cool for a n incorporation of the new alignment in addition to the BVE L line, resulting in two alternatives!!
I will let my partners know about it, thanks for letting me know!
......maybe we fans can persuade the MTA to paint the R142s red.....nah, it wouldn't be the same.................
Technically, you could tint the stainless steel on the cars red, or any other color, during production, and avoid the growing silver monotony of the subway fleet.
Of course, technically, you could build the new R-160 cars to look like R-9s or R-10s on the outside, only stuffed with high tech equipment, wheelchair access doors and air conditioning, but I doubt the MTA is gonna do that either, and you'd have to paint the things to make the resemblence complete (and the AC traction motors just wouldn't cut it trying to impersonate the sound of the R-9s bull and pinon gears...)
I love your ideas! Maybe when the slant R40s and Brightliners are up for replacement, maybe the MTA will use BMT Standard blueprints for the new cars....all authentic BMT Standards on the outside and interior.....but new gizmos under the floors..........aaahh, yes....perchance to dream.....(!!)
The front of the cab cars has some areas of red to pay homage to the Redbirds.
--Mark
Good observation...I never thought of that! CC
Here is a photo I took tonight from the railing of the 170th St station on the (4). It was taken at 6:09pm, which was after sundown, so I had to set the exposure time to 7/10 of a second. Looking "down the line" you can see the 167th St station, and way off in the distance you can see the Empire State Building, lit up in green. I've pasted my camera's settings for this photo below.
File: PDRM2962.jpg
ImageDescription - TOSHIBA Exif JPEG
Make - TOSHIBA
Model - PDR-M71
Orientation - 1 (top left)
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - 2 (inch)
Software - Digital Camera PDRM71 Ver1.02
DateTime - 2003:03:26 18:09:01
YCbCrPositioning - 2 (datum point)
ExifOffset - 246
ExposureTime - 10/14 seconds
FNumber - 5.7000
ExposureProgram - 4 (shutter priority)
ISOSpeedRatings - 400
ExifVersion - 210
DateTimeOriginal - 2003:03:26 18:09:01
DateTimeDigitized - 2003:03:26 18:09:01
ComponentsConfiguration - 1 2 3 (YCbCr)
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/2 seconds
ApertureValue - F 5.66
ExposureBiasValue - 0.0000
MaxApertureValue - F 2.93
MeteringMode - 5 (multi-segment)
LightSource - 0 (auto)
Flash - 0 (no flash)
FlashPixVersion - 100
ColorSpace - 1 (sRGB)
ExifImageWidth - 2048
ExifImageHeight - 1536
InteroperabilityOffset - 704
FileSource - 3 (digital still camera)
Take Pride,
Brian
Well, they say a picture is worth 1000 words, and I'll have to say that one is worth double that.
I like the Chrysler Building framed right next to the apartment building.
Nice. How'd you hold the camera getting no vibration for a full 7/10 second?
Thanks. I placed the camera on the nice flat railing at the end of the platform. I then put pressure down on the camera while I pressed the shutter so it wouldn't move. It's crude, but it works, usually. It's a makeshift tripod in the MTA's no-tripods-allowed world.
---Brian
Heh, I'd be scared of it falling off of the railing. I was originally thinking railing with the timer, but figured there would still be too much vibration. eh, I was close.
Don't worry, I keep a tight grip on her.
---Brian
I bet. Looking at the specs listed there, I would too. Hell I keep a tight grip on my cheapo-A40.
No, this isn't what I'd call an "expensive" digital camera in this day and age. I just got lucky last June and saw this deal at CompUSA. It was $299 after rebate and with no interest financing for 6 months. It was a great deal considering it is 3.2 megapixel, 2.8x optical zoom, and has full manual controls. Even today it is hard to find a good 3 megapixel camera for $299. My other nickname is "Hot Deals Weinberg" so you can be sure that "I don't pay a lot for a muffler!"
---Brian
A cheap $40... It can hold 300 pics! :P
Nice shot!!!
A little enginutity goes a long way.
Thanks
I've pulled the same trick with a garbage can:
To all, I don't know if this question was asked before, but what constitutes how many streets between each stop? The picture Brian took is a great example.(By the way, Great Pics Brian!!) The picture is from 170th Street, but the next stop is 167th.. Why would they make a 3 block station, it doesn't make any sense, some stations seem to have a length of 3 blocks.. Most stations have a distance apart of around 6-8 blocks but why three? Thanks!!!
Once you get above 161 St, the streets in the Bronx are spaced much further apart, while the avenues are spaced much closer together.
Thanks Vic!
The pic that Brian took seems as though the station was a block away.. so that when the train leaves 170, the end is still at 170 while the front is in 167th.. it just doesn't make sense that a station would be just "3" blocks away, But thanks!!!
You're welcome!
The photo I posted was taken with the full 2.8x optical zoom extended. So the 167th St station looks closer to the camera than it really is.
---Brian
How about Beverley Road and Cortelyou Road stations on the Brighton ... one block apart!
--Mark
The Bronx is just funny like that. You might think that it's just a continuation of how the grid is in Manh, but there are lots of intermediate small streets in between. I think it's like 6 or 7 blocks in between 167-170. I used to work around there and I got off at 167 by accident and had to walk the difference. Not Fun!!! lol
Actually the Empire State Building was Red White and Blue last night, just like in this picture I took last year, one of my best ever I think. (No train content)
Focal length : 18.2mm
Exposure time: 2.000 s
Aperture : f/2.4
ISO equiv. : 100
Now catch that again with an R-33 set on the curve and it'll be perfect.
Very, very nice photo. Not to mention the Chrysler Building to the left of the ESB.
So...you gonna tell us where we can get the loot too?
---Brian
A screwdriver comes in handy when you work a yard job. :)
How about when you ride a redbird alone, late at night, with no one else in your car? Is a screwdriver handy in the same way then?
---Brian
Ya never know when one of them homeless are gonna come along. Dude, calm down, the store had them. Unfortunately all that was left after I was done is 7623, but that's better than nothing, ain't it?
Heh heh, ok. I actually bought a car number plate over the summer. I forget what car number it is. I have to find out. Anyhow, my screwdriver reference was about unscrewing a strap from the roof. I want a strap and the Transit Museum hasn't gotten any yet. I mean, they've only been reefing the redbirds for a year now, why is it taking so long for the transit museum store to get some parts in stock for sale???? Enough is enough. I want my redbird parts. Now!
---Brian
Probably because the TA is selling those parts themselves, so you won't see them in the Museum Store anytime soon. When the link was posted, I don't recall seeing any number plates there. Also, if I'm right, and checking through the site, they look like from a 22.
Be warned if you want to go down there, the signs were not in the best of shape. They were all chipped pretty good with a bit of rust.
Right, the TA sold a lot of parts themselves, but you had to place a huge order in order to get anything. I just want a $15 strap to start. And maybe a set of local and exp signs, if I can get them to light up.
---Brian
BTW, did you ever get one?
Why doesn't the MTA retain a small fleet of Redbirds to operate on the Times Square-GC shuttle? Only a few cars are needed for this service, and they could provide both straphangers as well as tourists who want to get a taste of the old days on the NY subway.ANYTHING is better than dumping these historic vehicles into the ocean to serve as fish condos.
Not Just Redbirds, Any operating IRT Museum Fleet Cars should run on the shuttle. and use musemu BMT fleet for Franklyn Shuttle.
I agree...EXCELLENT idea!
I'd love it, but the one place where they want their newest, sparkling bright technology is TSQ-GC, where thousands of people (especially tourists) ride every day.
So realistically it'll never happen, even if it would be a cool idea.
If I had a dollar for every good idea I had that failed to make it, I would make Donald Trump look like a pauper!!
But R62A's are not that at all. They are nothing more than stainless R17's. I think the best 24 Redbirds should be on the shuttle and be kept aside for shop margin, or for emergency substitutions.
If TA had redbirds on the 42 Street shuttle, it definately would impress the tourists. It might also bring out the youths that would vandelise them.
The 42nd St Shuttle is now a modified "OPTO" that is, a T/O at either end. Each one doubles as C/R. To accomplish this you need the transverse cab.
While I like the idea of using a set of redbirds on the 42nd St Shuttle, comapred to todays operation it would be inefficient and costly (and we know how the TA feels about costs).
One-way OPTO.
Run a four-car train on track 3.
On trips from Times Square to Grand Central, the T/O would operate the doors and the other crew member would twiddle his thumbs.
On trips from Grand Central to Times Square, the other crew member would operate the doors.
David,
Yes, That is how it is done now.
I was just pointing out that you could not accomplish that using redbirds. One of the T/O would have to leave the cab and "fight" his/her way through the crowded car to the opposite cab to get to the door controls.
As I said - it is a nice idea but not an efficient one.
No. The T/O on runs from Times Square to Grand Central is on the same side as both platforms. He would operate the doors in both directions. The T/O at the other end would only operate the train from Grand Central to Times Square and would never touch the doors.
Oh, really? If something like this ever came to pass, I would make sure your email address is prominently displayed at each station. Then you will know how necessary it is.
Try standing in a subway train with a suit and tie on with no A/C. It is time for the redbirds to exit the stage to the left with their heads in the air.
If you want to see the redbirds learn to dive. I hear it is quite enjoyable
Corona seems to have given up years ago. A shame, since the 7 will be the only line running Redbirds this summer.
I seem to recall, back in the early 80s, taking the M train from Broad St. Manhattan, to Coney Island. Is my memory correct? if so, when did the M stop going to Coney?
The M used to run to Coney Island via the Brighton line local. In the mid-80's when the Manhattan Bridge was closed the first time to 6th ave trains, they "temporarily" put the M on the West End to Bay Parkway. At this point I think the M seems more at home on the West End. We shall see what happens when the MB reopens, but I'm pretty sure the M will never go back to the Brighton.
(I'm pretty sure the M will never go back to the Brighton.)
It makes more sense to leave it on 4th Ave:
- Only a small fraction of riders want Nassau St. They are distributed over all 4 lines.
- More riders total on 4th Ave than Brighton.
- Fewer crossover delays if all Montague Tunnel trains are also 4th Ave locals.
- More riders total on 4th Ave than Brighton.
If you don't count it's branches (Slow Beach, Wasted End), the 4th Ave ridership is lower than the Brighton.
The M ran to Stillwell via Sea Beach from late September through late October 2001, when N service was suspended. (A week after N service was reinstated, it was cut back to 86th Street.)
Thanks for input...was not aware of that. CC
At the time of its closure in the 40s, how many El routes ran out of Park Row?
There was the Myrtle Ave El, Lexington Ave El, 5th Ave El. At one point it also had the LIRR as well. But that was before 1917. So I can think of at least 3.
At the time of its closure in the 40s, how many El routes ran out of Park Row?
Park Row closed in 1944. At that time only the Myrtle and Lexington Ave Els survived.
As I am in the process of moving and need to get rid of lots of paper; for those who are interested in the technical data of construction of H&M Railroad, I will be happy to to mail this pamphlet. I got this from PATH when I wrote to them about my interest about PATH history.
Back in the 60s, the car cards inside NYC subway cars were typical of the time.....Soft drinks,beer, Miss Subways, breakfast cereals, chewing gum, etc. By the late 70s and 80s, the car ads reflected the times...ads depicting the consequences of AIDS, abused women,HIV,what lawyer to call if your arrested.........truly sad.....and disturbing. Today, repetitious ads for the same products adorn most of the cars. What ever happened to the "traditional" products once hawked by the car ads? We still have cold remedies, chewing gum, soft drinks, beer, etc......Why did these national companies stop advertising on public transit? I also remember, on long gone cars such as the Standards, Lo-Vs, and IND Rs, there were smaller sized car card panels in the middle of the car in the center of the clerestory roof, not to mention the large cards that were once displayed over the end doors of each car (the remaining Redbirds still have these)....I remember Wrigley's Gum usually having cards at these locations.
Beer and soda and the like are still advertised. Not so much gum and cereal, though. Clothes, hair care, tv. Lawyers are still in the minority.
Thanks for the input...CC
>>> Why did these national companies stop advertising on public transit? <<<
The ones I remember were the large end cards on the Lo-Vs for cigarettes; particularly Lucky Strike and Chesterfield with all the baseball players endorsing them. (They really caught the eye of a young kid.)
Tom
My favorite, probably from the 60s, was for a hemorrhoid doctor, Dr Tusch. His phone number was DRT-USCH.
Is cigarette advertsising still permitted?
Is cigarette advertsising still permitted?
It was banned several years ago. In fact, all outdoor cigarette advertising is now prohibited, as are sports sponsorships (except in motor sports) and advertising in magazines that appeal to under-18 readers.
SOunds like a job for...Forgotten NY!
Do you remember the huge "over-the-railfan-window" ads for Newport Menthols, etc in the R27-30's, R16's (and I think the redbirds)? The huge end ads were ALWAYS cigarettes.
Many subway ads seem to fall into a few general categories.
1. Personal-injury lawyers - these pander to the "get rich quick" mentality that infests many New Yorkers (this is nationwide, of course, but seems a little worse here). In addition, the lawyer glut leaves many legal eagles scrambling for whatever work they can find.
2. Telephone calling cards for overseas calls - New York's high immigrant population is a prime market for these.
3. Occupational training schools - attributable to the city's high unemployment rate.
4. Books - subway riders do a lot of reading.
5. Alcoholic beverages - not sure.
Yes..you are on the right track (pun intended!) on this! Those do seem to be the major catergories of subway car ads today. Thanks for the input. CC
A new feature is the "theme" car, where all the ads in a car are for the same product, usually sneakers, clothes or web sites.
Right.....I am WELL aquainted with that type of ad...all one product in one car...boring as hell! Thanks for the input. CC
I don't think there's enough payback to the adveretizer to justify the cost ... which has increased.
At this bus depot TDI does the installs vs. having an employee do it, so the cost includes the install & removal. This has lead many advertizers to go for the bigger adv.s on the outside of the bus, so not just the riders see it ... more bang for their bucks.
So far only one or two subtalkers have mentioned a ride on the this train since it went back into service last week. What has been going on? Are the trains running well? Are the lines really getting delayed with the 25 mph speed limit of the Type 8? -Nick
There are up to 16 cars available, though they don't all run at all times. Usually they are two-car trains, though there are two Type-7s (3622 and 3682) that have been retrofitted to be compatible in trains with the Type-8s and such consists have been sighted.
All Type-8s are running exclusively on the B/Boston College line to/from Government Center (some short turning at Park Street). They are limited by order to 25mph, though some riders report speeds of up to 30mph at times. Reports also say that there is bunching behind the Type-8s because of the speed restriction, but that may be because following cars are speeding!
......some old pics from the early 60s show some Redbirds in black paint......and others, red painted from the start, became Blackbirds from the accumulated dust, dirt, grime, and steel dust in the tunnels. So, at one time, some Redbirds were Blackbirds.....and Bluebirds on the Flushing line carrying crowds to the '64 Fair....
"some old pics from the early 60s show some Redbirds in black paint.."
Although NYC subway cars were never painted black, unless the roofs were, what you thought were Redbirds painted black was R-21/22's unwashed for many years.
Bill "Newkirk"
HIP has announced it is moving from midtown to 55 Water Street. This will be one helpful step to revitalize lower Manhattan.
Point your browswers to: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/27/nyregion/27DOWN.html
or use this link
Other tenants in the building include DTC - Depositiory trust company.
I believe Goldman Sachs had some office space in the building that it has vacated to be moved to it's new building in Jersey City. Goldman Decided to buy the property and build the jersey city building after the MTA outbid them for 2 Broadway.
Chemical had (don’t know about recently, now that it’s part of Chase) some lower floors.
Manny Hanny had two floors for a datacenter in the mid 1980’s, notwithstanding they also had the building next door (4 New York Plaza).
I understand 55 Water Street has been through a clean-up to remove asbestos in the past few years.
John
I'm still trying to make sense of this. A day or two ago, I noticed that my work ID badge was missing. It's probably misplaced somewhere in my house, but to be on the safe side I decided to check at the LIRR Lost & Found in case I had left it on a train.
So this morning, I go to the Lost & Found office at Penn Station and tell the clerk that I'm looking for an ID badge. He comes out from the behind the counter with a shoebox crammed full of documents and leaves it with me. He then goes back behind the counter and disappears into what I would imagine is the storage area. I'm alone and unsupervised with a box containing a large number of identification documents, driver's licenses, a passport or two, and, most interestingly, many credit cards. I could have grabbed a whole fistful of credit cards and left the office, and no one would have been the wiser - oh, and the nearby MVM's would have been a risk-free way of seeing which ones were still valid.
Yep, leave it to the LIRR ...
Obviously, what he did was inappropriate. Did you report it?
And did you find what you were looking for?
So LIRR Is Encourging Id Theft?!?!?
Just wanted to take a "tally" on who is planning on going on the DC Railfan trip on April 5th. Obviously Oren, I know you're going :)
Mark
I'm going.
Meet you at Shady Grove.
John
I'll be on the April 6 Media/Sharon Hill trip in Philly (as long as there are spots still available -- still waiting to hear from the museum). I might be able to make a "NEC" weekend of it. I'll have to see. How do you sign-up? Funny, I'll be in D.C. this weekend, though! Too bad the trip is a week off!
How do you sign-up?
email Oren
So am I; I'll board train 79 the Carolinian at 30th Street.
I will be there, if my plans don't change for the weekend...I haven't been to DC in a year or so...
There is a mix of people who came last time and who didn't
There are some BusTalkers (which is why there are some buses in the itinerary)
I believe about 4 or 5 people plan on taking train 79 to DC
If anyone is still interested on getting info, just send me an e-mail. "RSVPs" are not required but are appreciated. For more info, check out the Upcoming Events page.
Greetings:
I've been busy with some things being shown on TV lately, or I would have come here sooner.
Here's the "Inside Story" about BHRA and the Brooklyn Trolley Project being SABOTAGED FROM WITHIN.
There are several material witnesses in "high places" who have come forward recently, to expose all of this. We are currently considering filing lawsuits against certain indiviuals- and the groups they "rep"-as well as referring the entire matter to law enforcment agencies, as a contract involving Federal, State and NYC public funds was "tampered" with.
There is a certain individual formerly associated with this project, who began the "sabotage from within" a few weeks before 9-11. He became an "agent" for a certain French company, as he lost his "day job". He then teamed up with folks who were active with a certain Mayoral candidate who seemed likely to win, but ended up losing.....
This certain individual had been in a trusted role at BHRA, and felt he had something he could "sell" in his "time of financial hardship"- our equipment. His great refrain was "everyone has to eat".
The first thing he did, was by using the political connections of this "Mayoral Candidate", he managed to obtain an appointment with a very high official at a certain City Agency, key to BHRA's activites- I understand their initial meeting place was a "goth club" in the east village called "CBGB Lounge". This was in the weeks before 9-11.
The "high official" was told by this person, claiming to have intimate knowledge of BHRA, that we were essentially "a band of incompetent criminals", that he was the "mover and shaker of the project", that your humble narrator was merely a "poser" and that our project should be handed over to this "person"- who had coincidentally formed a company with an almost identical name--- BHRA's initials merely transposed......
This is the part that's really painful for me- the other people in this "new company" are fairly well known members of two other rail museums!!!!!!!
It didnt stop there. I'm told now, that this "former volunteer" has actually been impersonating me in telephone calls to governmental agencies- including the MTA, City Hall, DOT and many other places - even Agencies outside New York.
Probably the worse thing this person did, was meet with all of BHRA's "landlords" to make a "sales pitch" for the "new entity"- and ask the "landlords" to confiscate BHRA' equipment- for "non-payment of rent"- (in space that is DONATED, BTW!!), and allow it to be removed to a certain "trolley museum" outside of NYC for "safe keeping"- the "landlords" were promised substantial profit from the sales and "disposition" of BHRA's equipment, BTW.
We have testimony from material witnesses, and we will see where this all goes.
I guess this posting is also going to serve as a "pre-emptive warning"- all of the people involved are, or were at one time, SubTalkers!!
Bob D.
I have no inside knowledge of the whole affair, but I would caution against jumping to conclusions too quickly. Things that initially seem like deep dark plots and conspiracies often turn out much less sinister.
In addition, I would warn against airing pending legal differences on a public forum.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good advice. Especially with this story.
---Brian
It would not surprise me if the above account is accurate. I worked for a certain city agency that oversee's all city agencies including DOT. If bob would like some help with getting the issue investigated seriously, please drop me an email.
The real reason this city is in such dire straights especially in the outer boroughs is all the political hoops and money grabing that goes on with our elected officials.
Guess you work for DOI...
Late Newsflash: a fourth R-9 will be included in the mix for the trip thanks to the generous donation of heypaul....he will of course reside in his cab for the duration of the trip but will make himself available for autographs during the lunch stop...
Did I miss a post about an upcoming March of Dimes excursion with (gasp) R-9s?
--Mark
I think you did. Check my postings & responses to them for
"March of Dimes" excursions in June. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Click here for the original message.
ChuChuBob,
Thanks for the link. Is I going to see you at 69th Street on
Sunday, April 6th.
8-) ~ Sparky
I'd like to see you, Keystone Pete, and other Rockhill Trolley Museum members and trolley fans at 69th street on Sunday April 6th, but I'm going on the DC trip the day before and may have some difficulty on the home front if I have too much fun for one weekend. If I recover from the DC trip and can get away again, I'll show up for a couple quick photos, or try to buy a walk-up ticket if I can spare the whole day.
Bob
8-) Sparky
I don't do the gear sounds anymore, although once in a great while, if I'm walking in full stride, I may bellow out an F# above middle C the way that D train once did when the motorman applied power at 103rd or 110th St. n/b.
ROTFLMAO!
It will be put on what's left of a certain Drill Motor, and for your convience there will be a esclator provided from the roadbed. Transportation to the event will be via his fleet of Greyhounds ... NOT.
We all know the Brightliners lost thier marker lights (as well as thier front end roller signs) when they were rebuilt. Was the use of markers abandoned by the MTA at this time? What were the color combos for the various lines?
All that info is RIGHT HERE on this site.
Peace
ANDEE
Thanks!
Here's a news story from the Toronto Star:
Scarborough RT Bursting at Seams
I have a question about the story. If Vancouver uses the same equipment, where do they get their rolling stock from if it is no loger made? After all, the recently opened a new line, which I'm going to guess required expanding the fleet. Also, are there no other LRV models that will run on the Scarborough RT line?
Just wondering.
Mark
That's a two part answer.
1) Vancouver uses the same equipment. They bought their Mk1 cars when they were being made when Detroit's were produced as well, shortly after the TTC's were built.
2) Vancouver doesn't use exactly the same equipment. The newest cars are Mk2s, and they are used on the new Skytrain line. These physically won't fit the clearances of the Scarborough RT at a few points where there are very tight turns. The curving ramp at Kennedy and the underpass come to mind right away. Therefore, these are out of the question unless significant rebuilding and realigning of several parts of the line is done first.
-Robert King
Too bad the TTC had to "succumb to the arm twisting" that was mentioned in the article. Otherwise, the existing Bloor-Danforth Subway might have been extended, and none of these problems would be happening.
I know the idea of the Scarborough RT as a streetcar LRT is very popular and has a lot of fans, but I don't think it was a good idea either. Personally, I think the best choice would have been to extend the Bloor Danforth line and increased the size of the H5 order which was made at the time the planning was done to accomodate the increased need for subway rolling stock.
-Robert King
I have a RedBird pic that I would like to share with this board. HOWEVER, I am having a difficult time in doing so. This pic I have I took at 52 St Station (#7 line, of course) and I think this board would really like it especially now with the demise of these relics. I am a member of transitalk.org but this pic I took pretty recently and I did not give it to Trevor on time for that particular update. If anyone can help me posting this pic I have up here, email me and place in subject line Redbird Pic and I'll be more than happy to send it to you to post on this board. Any help would be appreciated.
Also had a difficult time posting the R40M pic I took on this site. I had to post it only as a link. Why is that?
#9577 7 Flushing Express
#4450 N Sea Beach Local
> I had to post it only as a link.
You HAVE to post it as a link, I do not allow users to upload pictures directly to be hosted on this site. You need to put them on your own web site and then post links.
Here's the problem: geocities. I tried that and it's unavailable for viewing. I'll email you the pic.
#9591 7 Flushing Local
You might also ask David Pirmann if he wants to put then in the image archive at nycsubway.org.
John
Hi folks, I need to go to 86th and U Avenue in Brooklyn, and the directions I got are to take either the W to 25th Ave station or the N to U Ave station. I need to be there by 8am on a Tuesday, so can anyone give me a travel time estimate from Penn Station to either of the above stations?
Thanks!
Bryan
AT least 1 hour.
#4150 N Sea Beach Local
All the information you need is here.
Bryan
OK. Many people who post here aren't aware how much info is on this site and the MTA's site.
Of course, then there's also the real world as defined by NYCT's internal schedules, and the real world as defined by when the trains actually arrive.
AT least 1 hour.
#4150 N Sea Beach Local
Scheduled times:
W - 0656 @ 34/b'way arrives 25th Ave @ 0740
N - 0650 @ 34/B'way arrives 86 St @ 0749
arriving De Kalb
@
0649 0700 0710 0712 0719 0723
transfer to N
@
0657 0710 0725
arrive Avenue U
@
0728 0741 0756
I hope this isn't a repost. I saw in the stations this morning a poster showing the last days that you can use Metrocards bought under the current fare plan. Off hand, I remember that the 30-day cards can be used until June 12. It said that unlimited cards can be refunded on a pro-rated basis. Sorry for the lack of other details. There were no "take-ones" that I saw, only posters on the wall. I will take a photo of one tonight and post it online.
---Brian
Ok..........I guess this is old news. Sorry.
---Brian
Whilst walking the length of the Rector 1/9 platform yesterday, I came to notice the station column markers (aka pillar) signs looking like they were made of a fiberglass or (daresay tupperware!?) material which makes them looking THINNER than their previous metal/porcelain counterparts?
Is the TA reverting to new material in making these signs?
(Could give our precious genuine metal station signs more value!)
Just a note.. the film Style Wars, probably the best known documenatary about subway graffiti, is being released in a 2-disc special edition DVD on April 22. If you buy through our Bibliography Amazon sends this site a small kickback to help offset our costs.
-Dave
Is it just me,or according to this plan,the J/M/Z lines get a service CUT? Where is the all day M service to Downtown Bklyn? The service to Middtown? The Super J express? It's the same old crap all over again. You now have to pay more to get less!!!I know this is only a sujested plan,but come on....anyone got a take on this?
"Where is the all day M service to Downtown Bklyn"
Nobody rides this service even during rush hour.
YOUR RIGHT..the way it is right now.service was much better in the old days,when it was on the Brighton...and when it was the QJ!!!!
(Where is the all day M service to Downtown Bklyn?)
This was a TEMPORARY service to make up for the lack of West End service to Grand St. It was NEVER intended to be permanent.
However, the lack of M service to Manhattan weekday evenings is a cutback.
(The service to Middtown?)
Never an official NYCT plan. A Subtalk fantasy (though a nice, one, I must admit). Maybe NYCT i thinking about it too. But it has no relationship to the MB either. They could do it today if they wished, since it doesn't take more rolling stock to merge the V with the M and extend the J than to send the J to Broad and the M to Brooklyn.
(The Super J express?)
A totally separate issue. Not in any way related to the Manhattan Bridge. It could still happen if the powers that be decide it gives LIRR riders a better way to downtown.
However, the lack of M service to Manhattan weekday evenings is a cutback.
Yes that is a cutback, and I have no idea why they want to do that so early in the evening. The M is not uncrowded at that time. It's only after 9:00 or so that it gets much less busy.
(The service to Middtown?)
Never an official NYCT plan. A Subtalk fantasy (though a nice, one, I must admit). Maybe NYCT i thinking about it too. But it has no relationship to the MB either. They could do it today if they wished, since it doesn't take more rolling stock to merge the V with the M and extend the J than to send the J to Broad and the M to Brooklyn.
This would have been the perfect time to try this, now that the Manhattan Bridge was closed. There is plenty of capacity on 6th ave. They could have forgotten about the Grand Street shuttle, and merged the M with the V.
So, where the hell is service to Grand St?
One borough's service improvement is another's cutback.
There. Any other complaints?
yes...you.
"There. Any other complaints?"
Yes. You forgot the most important complaint. I don't see any PATH or SEPTA trains allowed on the bridge, even at 2AM when there's plenty of room. Why is that?
:0)
The midtown service would be, as I have written, nice. As for service through to Brooklyn, it seems like more should be going through the Montague Street Tunnel (now contending for the title of emptiest tunnel?). What that more should be is something I'm not sure of. As for super J express, I'm not persuaded it would be very 'express'-like, and apparently neither were many others here.
When did the MTA officially do away with double letter train route designations (AA,CC,EE,etc.)? I believe it was sometime in the early or mid 80s...not sure.
1985.
I was about right...thanks.
......any website(s) have pics of the Queensboro Plaza complex before the routes were consolidated and the north half of the structure demolished?
This one! This pic shows a triplex on the now gone northside platform. The workmen on the track adjacent to the train seem to be preparing the track for BMT service, since it was used by IRT sized 2nd Ave trains crossing the Queensboro Bridge prior to the reconfiguring (in 1949).
For 4 years I used to stand on that platform waiting for the train to take me to HS. And there used to be abother platform there. I've heard about it. But not until now could I picture it.
Like kids used to say 30 years ago: FAR OUT!
GREAT PIC!!! THANKS!! CC
...I can recall around 1981 bieng in the Transit Museum and a Nostalgia Special was loading....and it was a train of IND Rs....does this R set still exist (i.e. in operating condition)? Any time I rode the Special it was always the Triplex units.
Most, if not all of the questions you have been posting are answered on the main mycsubway.org site. Take the time to explore the entire site, as 95% of what you have asked about in posts is already here.
I can tell you that constant posting of questions that are covered elsewhere on the site could earn you a place in the killfiles of many SubTalkers.
Not only that, it means he's not reading the posts on Subtalk because THIS IS AN ACTIVE THREAD RIGHT NOW -- about this coming June's fantrips.
Sorry if I am not paying attention as you state.....I am recovering from a strained hernia and injured back and have been in great pain. So, I might miss some things, and, if people think I am posting too much, why dont they just mind thier own business?? This pettiness is truly annoying and aggravating. I post often to keep my mind off my physical pain. I learn greatly from others posts..I enjoy r=the learning and trivia. Why must people so damn petty? If someone wants to post 100 times a day, that is THEIER BUSINESS...I do not set limits for other SubTalker's postings, the same courtesty should be extended to me.
I didn't say you shouldn't post-- just that many of your questions have already been answered through many volunteers' HARD WORK elsewhere on this web site, and some of them are in fact being discussed here in other threads. I realize it's easier to ask questions than seek answers but if you're homebound recovering from injuries you should have plenty of time to start here and browse the site; you will learn a lot. Don't take it the wrong way but you have to realize that after a while, people are going to get tired of answering questions which have easy answers elsewhere.
No problem.....I'm history...so much for tolerance and respecting others views...I used to wish I could get together with other guys to share my love of the subway...but, I see buffs can be as petty as anyone else. So, never fear...the SubTalkers who get annoyed at my frequent postings will no longer have to worry. CC 8TH AVE LOCAL IS NOW PERMENTLY OUT OF SERVICE. Shame a hobby can't be enjoyed because of petty crap. I tried to more than grateful and civil to other SubTalkers who were kind enough to share thier knowledge and trivia with me. Guess bieng a lone-wolf in the hobby has more advantages than I realized. However, I do wish you continued good luck with your site, and I hope it prospers in the future. Respectfully, CC
Sorry that your leaving, your a interesting poster here on the talks.
dont be a stranger, and post again in a few weeks.
I tried to email you but it keeps coming back. Anyway, I wish you would reconsider, what I just read. You had a lot to add to subtalk, and don't take what people say personally. The internet can be a mean place sometimes.
I hope when you think about it you will stay around, and reconsider. Believe me the majority of people that visit subtalk are great people. I've met some of them on various trips, etc. I would hate to see you miss out on hours of enjoyment just because of a little argument. So stay around and enjoy all of our common. interest - the subway!
This is a great site, and there is a lot to do here besides subtalk. But try to think about it, and hopefully you will come by again....
I don't know why he was getting so upset. I don't think that I have seen anyone (not even Railfan Pete) post as many questions in such a short period of time.
I was beginning to get impression that this board was being used as an information service for someone who didn't want to spend the time to look at the rest of the site.
If he feels that some here were being petty, that is his perogative.
I thought that almost everyone who responded to him was helpful and supportive.
CC Local - if you read this, stick around. This is a great group both online and in person. If you have questions, why not check the site out first (use the box at the bottom of the main page and type in a keyword or two). If you still have a question after you read what the site has to offer on the subject then you can ask it.
Sheesh. Wait a minute dude....(if you're lurking, which I suspect), what's up? Man, haven't you learned the truth yet? How old did you say you were, 42? C'mon already! EVERYTHING EXTANT HAS STRUCTURE! Got it? I've seen this before, all over the net. Even back in the days of good ol' bbs message boards. It ain't just a gabby bunch of folk rambling on about trains. Consider a board like Subtalk a soverign nation. There are cultural mores generally followed by the natives. Politeness is the one attribute respected by all. Politeness, re: cultural mores, means to interact with fellow citizens in manner and scope appropriate to that culture. Or, when in Rome, do as the Romans.
The most vibrant part of this Subtalk "data flow" is, of course, the wavefront. Which is something never seen before, the constant "now" of pertinent disseminated information intercourse. We's experiencin' somethin' new here. (Imagine a Newton or Einstein on a message board!!) To explore new concepts is this boards' greatest application. As an aside, a secondary benefit is the aggregation is a great deal of specialized hard-to-acquire-elsewhere knowledge. It's a wonderful resource; sort of a Universal Library. The information is, if I may, both dense and granular. So use the resource; contribute to the Library when you can. One of the benefits of the format is the archiving of data. Data THAT IS EASY TO ACCESS, via simple search queries. For our interests, say you want to know about a type of station tile. You search for "station tile" and information will be available. Postings relevant to the topic will be at your disposal.
Getting back to the culture. If you follow long enough, you see that there is a roughly standardized level of norm re: what everyone assumes everyone is aware of. Postings are generally "unofficially" guided by this norm. When various questions are asked time and time again, it's sort of like annoying interruptions in the stream of thought. And hell, this IS also a fun thing. We're having a lark.
So don't spoil the fun, man. Get with the program. It ain't nothin' you can't handle.
My comment about the Killfile was meant that some of the SubTalk family will killfile anybody they find objectable. Incessant asking of questions about things already on the site (and easily located thanks to hours of work by our Webmaster and lots of other people) will earn that poster a place in their killfiles for that poster.
Your post was thoughful and informative.
CCLOCAL is being short-sighted and petty.
There are no "priveleged" groups here. Some people (1) Know alot about certain areas, and (2) Ain't shy about spreadin' it around.
And we all have our own ideas about the trains, and we share.
Uh......if you post enough, you become part of the, uh, "inner clique". It's as simple as that. Some subjects are worthy of deep digging. There's a difference between examining a subject intensely and reiterating the basics again and again. And no ones's keeping track that way. Like I said before, it's a flow thing, man. Remember Star Wars, the movie? We're "using the Force, Luke!" I'm not trying to put you down. I guess you just can't get with it. Too bad.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Sorry if my contstant posting annoys you. At least I post legitmate questions here...why don't you have a beef with some of the morons who post asinine, childish, and off-topic posts?? Why dont you kindly mind your own business...NO ONE TELLS YOU TO READ MY POSTS...IGNORE THEM from now on if my posting annoys you. GET A LIFE!!!! DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TRY TO BLACKLIST ME AMONG OTHER SUBTALKERS...ALL I SEEK HERE IS LEARNING AND CORRESSPONDING WITH OTHER BUFFS. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WITH MY CONTASTANT POSTING, TOO BAD! I DO NOT TELL YOU OR ANY OTHER SUBTALKERS HOW OFTEN TO POST OR WHAT TO POST. SIMPLY IGNORE MY POSTS IF IT BOTHERS YOU. I DO NOT CARE HOW MANY TIMES OTHERS POST IN A GIVEN PERIOD, THE SAME COURTESY SHOULD APPLY TO ME...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!
To answer your question read here
Once again today, core drilling on 2nd Ave at 11th St. This time I took a closer look. Big truck, crew of 5 or 6, core samples pulled up and put into nice new wooden boxes labeled "Project: Second Ave Subway", "Date: 3/27/03", "Contract # (I forget the #)", etc.
This is mildly serious money. Certainly $5000 per day or more to hire this company (NJ based). So at least no one has told them yet to stop doing work.
"This is mildly serious money. Certainly $5000 per day or more to hire this company (NJ based). So at least no one has told them yet to stop doing work."
That's a funny question. Why should they? This work is funded in the currrent Capital Plan, contract let - so work must be performed.
Even if the SAS' construction were to be delayed (initial construction is funded in the current Capital Plan), this engineering work would be completed as per contract. There would be no reason to repeat it later.
If so, what they are doing is testing the strength of the soil. What you saw is the beginning stages of every tramsportation project. For the work I did, we had to drill all the way down to limestone (this was mostly in South Georgia, where they don't have granite bedrock like North Georgia and NYC probably have). We did this at existing interstate bridges to prepare for an eventual widening of the highway several years from now. What I assume they are doing at 2nd Ave is they are going to see how the soil will support the weight of the tunnels and trains that will enventualy run through there.
At several intverals, usually every 10 feet, they'll do a "blow count" which is what the pounding is. The hammer blows at a predetermined force, and they count the number of times it takes to compress the dirt 1 foot. You can use this number to determine how much weight the soil can support. You know when you hit bedrock when it takes over 50 blows to move less than an inch. When you get a blow count like that, you've reached where the foundatian will go. After you've done all this work and the soil lab has indentified ll the soil type, you can create a "boring log," which is a graph that shows a cross section of the ground that that point and how much weight it can support at certain depths. I made at least 20 of these boring logs.
Of course, of you DIDN'T hear pounding, then nevermind anything I just wrote! :-)
I believe they were drilling to take core samples of the rock/gravel/compressed dirt, and then put those samples into their nicely labeled boxes.
The samples they were getting is definately going back to a soil lab so that they can indentify what soil is at different levels, and how much weight the soil can support. I can't imagine they didn't do any blow counts if they were already there drilling.
And you know you've hit Bedrock when you see Fred and Wilma and the rest of the gang.
Man, that must have been tough. Did you fall asleep while trying to read your work? :-)
:0)
Oxymoron
Boars aren't just wild pigs, they're any uncastrated male pig. Like bulls are male cows that still have their family jewels.
The following is a list of words I never want to read on Subtalk again. Number one: Bra. Number two: Horny. Number three: Family Jewels.
All three can have perfectly clean meanings. A "bra" is a fabric cover for the front of a sports car, designed to protect it from flying gravel and the like. "Horny" means having horns, in other words what cattle are like until their horns are removed. Family jewels? Consider this sentence:
Because we don't trust banks, in our family jewels are the most common asset.
1. There is some question whether the Boston Reconstruction Authority put housing projects in areas not accessible to the subway system for political reasons.
2. (Can't think of one right now. Maybe something to do with getting Texas Longhorn cattle to market.)
3. If you want to pawn the family jewels in the Diamond District on 47th St., take the B, D, V, or F to Rockefeller Center.
2. (Can't think of one right now. Maybe something to do with getting Texas Longhorn cattle to market.)
Maybe we could work Hoyt-Schermerhorn in somehow.
IIRC, most of Manhattan lays on top of (forgive the spelling errors) schist. Not a geology major so I don't know if that's a form of granite, but hey, I remember something from high school! :-P
I been hearing all this talk about the "S" Curve after Sutter Avenue (Manhattan Bound) being gone, is the curve gone yet? Or When is it supposed to be gone?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Reading an earlier post,they said that tommorow will be the last day that the L will be using that "S" curve.This weekend there will be split service on the L which means that the Canarsie bound track from Broadway-Junction-Rockaway Pkwy will be used.Starting Monday,the L will use the new connection.
Hopefully tommorow I can go ride the L one final time through the "S" curve.
Robert
Don't know if they're quite that enthusiastic.... I went through at about 7:20 PM today, no sign of any work crews in the area.
The light fixtures on the soon-to-be-gone NB platform have been disabled, so it was only lit by those 5-bulb work lights. However, there weren't any lights hung on the section of platform north of the stairs (about 1/3 of it), which gave it a charmingly gloomy look this evening.
You have until 8PM tomorrow night.
Removal starts then with new alignment to be complete by 5AM Monday
Thank You
What about the "Flyover" (the old #14) connection to the Broadway line, is that trackwork to be completed along with the realignment?
wayne
For What? LOL
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Support our troops!
=====================================================
I WANNA BE EMBEDDED
(to the tune "I wanna be sedated" by the Ramones)
(new lyrics by Kevin and Nancy McAleavey)
=====================================================
{Refrain}
Twenty-twenty-twenty-four hours of news
I wanna be embedded
Nothing to do, no where to go-o,
I wanna be embeddeded
Just get me to the airport, put me on a plane
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go insane
I can't control my camera, I can't control my mike
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a taxi, get me on a plane
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go insane
I can't control my bladder, I can't control my brain
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a unit, put me in a hole
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go loco
I can't control my airtime, I can't control my dish
Oh no oh oh oh oh
{Refrain}
Just put me in a Humvee, get me to the show
Hurry hurry hurry, before I go loco
I can't control my camera, can't hear my IFB
Oh no oh oh oh oh
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Ba-ba-baba, baba-ba-baba, I wanna be embedded
Michael
Washington, DC
Or just wait for an R-42.
What is the intended purpose, by the way?
One use not covered by djf that a TSS told me is acceptable is when a gravity latch gets stuck and cannot be completely turned using the key. However I do not know what the Rulebook's take is on this.
There are still a few R-42 and R-40M sets running on the L. One was covering the single-track BJ-Canarsie shuttle on Sunday (and presumably the rest of the weekend).
I remember that back on 9/11, Subway-buff was worried about being disciplined because she was unable to get in from New Jersey, which was hardly her fault seeing that all transportation into Manhattan had been shut down.
Speaking of which, I don't think Subway-buff has posted anything in several weeks. Anyone know why?
Upon entering Bridgeport I see the Amtrak train standing on the wrong side platform. Well, we pull in and make out station stop while the Amtrak train just sits there. It finally begin to move just as we begin to move. However, at the Bridgeport intelrocking it needs to cross from the wrong side track to the right side express track while we just get a clear signal. So we blast past the Amtrak while it makes the crossover and regain the lead. However...
We have to make more station stops and the MNRR dispatch crosses the Amtrak in front of us at the Housitanic river intelrocking into the 2-track b/t there and New Haven. so again I thought we were done for, but...
When we get to New Haven the Amtrak train is sitting on the platform waiting for a power change. So, the end result was a tie. Just shows you how crappy the MNRR New Haven line still is. BTW, I noticed that my train under the last remaining triangle catenary this morning went faster than my afternoon train under the new CT stuff. Just goes to show, you can't beat old time quality.
---Brian
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If there is a load on the server, like someone else posting simultaneously, you're going to get "locked out" of the database until their post is finished. So you might get thru in 1 second now, 5 seconds later. Please don't start a flood of "wow let me test it" posts because the response time is going to vary dramatically with server load.
--Mark
I didn't write car #'s because I was nervous...three or four dozen TA workers floating around...I'm surprised nobody said anything to me for walking back and forth around snapping pics in the first place. If it helps at all, this picture was taken on Sun Mar 23 2002 about 2-3 PM. Obviously it is Concourse Yard. And no, it was not a super-long train stored at the double-length tracks at Conc yard. This train was about 9 or 10 cars long (maybe 11, it disappeared under the bridge). The car at tne far end under the Jerome line lead is a Redbird, not an R62/A, but the car in between is an R62.
-Stef
They may seem boringly commonplace now, but the time will be upon us where R-62s will be disappearing from the 4. Get those pictures soon.....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You don't have to tell me that :)
---Brian
I think the number of the last car was 9335, but I'm not totally sure. This was around 8pm tonight. Anyone else see them?
I hope they weren't on their way to be scrapped... (sniff)
If anything, a reconstruction of Corona should allievate this occurance. I'd imagine it's inefficient to constantly send cars to another yard. Better to do it on the home turf, so to speak.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=457940
#3 West End Jeff
R-62 @ 170th St (4)
Take Pride,
Brian
---same angle as last night, minus the Chrysler building......
---Brian
Anyway, open cab doors were very much common in my formative years, the 1980's and early 1990's, according to my recollection too.
Elias
Recently, I railfanned the 7 to Main Street and shortly after leaving Willets Point, the cab doors starts to get on me! It wasn't much as it was slamming me but it would swing back and annoy me more. I didn't take chances though, and kind of moved it. I finally realized it was moving my itself via the train's movements! I was still ticked off at the T/O, though. How can he just let a door swing recklessly...? I was hoping the door would slam into him!! No offense to all of you T/O's though... :P
www.SubwayInfo.com
Providing Door-To-Door Subway Directions.
You're joking of course.
I tried asking for directions from where I live in the Bronx (and address in Co-Op City) to 349 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016.
You know what I got? "Could not find a station near the starting point"
I tried something else 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza (a very well known address in NYC) to where I live. The system could not find that address. It came back with 3 entries of ... (3 dots). If I clicked on Get Directions anyway it came back with "Server Error in '/' Application".
While the picture of the R26 (7853) is nice. Why are you showing one with grafitti on it? Graffitti on NYC subway cars is a thing of the past. By continuing to display such a picture is a total misrepresentation and I think an insult to NYC.
IMO - Subwayinfo.com has a quite a way to go before they can live up to their claim on the lead page:
"This web server will give you subway directions from any location, to any location, within the five boroughs of New York City (NYC). More cities will be added soon."
In fact they could be cited for false or misleading advertising.
Just my occasional morning rant.
Maybe it would help if I describe how the software works. Basically, the way the software works is as follows:
1. Find all the subway stations within ½ mile from the starting location.
2. Find all the subway stations within ½ mile of the destination.
3. Determine the best path from one of the stating stations to one of the ending stations.
If the software cannot locate any stations within ½ mile, it will display the error message. We are currently looking into ways to increase the search radius without increasing the search time.
I hope this helps. Thank you for your input.
www.SubwayInfo.com
Providing Door-To-Door Subway Directions.
It still thinks that Broadway on the Crosstown Line is the same station as Broadway on the Astoria Line. (Try asking it the quickest route from 85 Nassau Av to 110 E 42nd St).
"This web server will give you subway directions from any location, to any location, within the five boroughs of New York City (NYC). " because you cannot give subway directions from ANY location in the 5 boroughs. To continue to do so is false advertising I hope you are not in NYC becaue the Dept of Consumer Affairs would love to get ahold of you.
I recommend that you change that statement to reflect the actual service you are providing.
R-142 7146 @ 170 St (4) - NB platform
R-142 7146 @ 170 St (4) - SB platform
R-142 7146 @ 170 St (4) - SB platform
Take Pride,
Brian
wayne
---Brian
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug...and everyone should know that!
You have earned your pay for the day.
-Stef
Just kidding, nice photo as always.
Robert
Do you have a technique?
If the cop didn't see it, woosh...I'm outta here! :p -Nick
As an inveterate jay walker, honing my technique in London and NY, I use a simple technique: I look at the lanes of cars and work out the timings so I can cross one lane at a time.
There is a certain amount of cheating: the cars are so gridlocked, that they hardly ever get up any speed. I think you can walk faster than drive in many parts of Manhattan!
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Friend of a friend, chances are it never happened.
"Only in New York!"
Of course, the risk of the death penalty also arises when crossing legally, but probably at a lower percentage rate.
avid
Queens Blvd. carries 900,000 passengers daily. A bypass express would help reduce some of the crush.
Extending the J further east on Archer Av would help pick up more local passengers who otherwise might head for the Hillside Av line. And a new subway line on currently unused LIRR ROW south of the subway corridor would help as well, though, overall, it would alsoincrease total ridership because the subway would receive new patrons.
I thought that was already taken care of with the introduction of the V?
Increased capacity does not come from additional routes, although the introduction of the V increased flexibility for some customers, who probably greatly prefer it to the G that formerly ran to Continental Avenue. Of course, I hear that Crosstown Local riders don't much like the V at the expense of their G service.
Using the LIRR Montauk line for a super express would greatly help, although Ron is correct, for sure, in noting that improvement itself will increase ridership. Of course, I'm sure that we'd rather deal with that problem than the present one.
You could add more trains to the local track and run them through the 63rd St tunnel. Capacity is not an issue.
It's just that there's no demand for more local trains. The addition of the V has reduced the demand for express service to a barely tolerable level by convincing some Roosevelt and Continental riders to take a local rather than an express. But more local trains won't further reduce the demand for express service.
There would be an even better way of reducing crowding on the Express - make the (E) the Hillside Local and the (F) the Hillside Express, then extend the (R) to Jamaica Center. This will encourage riders to use the (J)/(Z) or once they get a seat on an (R) not to give it up. It would also be called political suicide.
I'm hoping that CBTC will allow 40 tph by 2012, and relieve the problem for a few more decades, at least until the baby boomers have died off and don't need Medicaid any more.
Gee, thanx, bro'. Yuh know what I hope? That a combination of bio-engineering, organic computing, "enhanced foodstuffs" and a continuing dedication to knowledge expansion allow this 1954-vintage jam blammer to thrive so long that I'll see vacuum acceleratube trains whisking up and down the Avenues, Newark Spaceport in service, virtual reality "instant vacations" become the next Big Thing (after household robots have become commonplace), and me foolin' around with your great-great-great-grandaughters' daughter on top of the Heinlein Tower.
In archive searches here, I have read about a proposal to add some capacity by using both express tracks for service in the peak direction, eliminating, of course, the anti-peak direction express. Could the the southbound local track handle all of that traffic to complete the round-trip loop? It's an interesting proposal, as is the LIRR ROW one. Are any currently on the planning level; I'd think the latter might be with East Side Access, but I can't recall any mention.
No it couldn't. My suggestion at one point was to send the excess trains back where they came from via the Chrystie connector and the J/Z line (building a connector between the J/Z and the E at Archer Ave).
False statement. Actual physical capacity to Manhattan increased by 20% when the G's capacity was given to the V.
"although the introduction of the V increased flexibility for some customers, who probably greatly prefer it to the G that formerly ran to Continental Avenue."
Entirely irrelevant. Examine your subway map.
"Of course, I hear that Crosstown Local riders don't much like the V at the expense of their G service."
And 900,000 other daily riders on the corridor outrank them.
Oh, I absolutely agree that the V is a great improvement, despite it being complained about alot, unfairly so, I think. I merely wished to point out that there did exists some dissenters, vocal and even caustic in their criticism; I should have been more clear about who was in the supermajority, and you have done just that.
"Actual physical capacity to Manhattan increased by 20% when the G's capacity was given to the V."
This appears to be so, but I had not thought that the effect was that profound.
On my second point, though, that "the introduction of the V increased flexibility for some customers, who probably greatly prefer it to the G that formerly ran to Continental Avenue," I still think the introduction of the V created flexibility and convenience for many. Prior to the arrival of the V, Queens Boulevard local riders wishing to go down the 6th Avenue Line had to take the R or G and then transfer over to the V. The G, Brooklyn-bound crosstown, was especially useless to them. Certainly it isn't a decisive point, but I don't think it's irrelevant either.
It is an especially poorly designed line. From Myrtle Av to Long Island City it runs on an axis which points decisively towards midtown, to which it then fails to go. South of Myrtle, instead of extending this axis, it curves through 90 degrees, an excersise in sheer Hylanism - spite before utility.
3 steps to making the (G) Line work:
1) attatch it to the 63rd St tunnel
2) rebuild the Myrtle Avenue El as it connects to lines heading in the right direction
3) abandon the Hoyt - Myrtle section, perhaps with an extension Myrtle - Eastern Parkway as an excuse for doing so
Yes, but without much of the purpose of the Myrtle and Lexington Els as realistic through routes.
What would have truly exploited the usefulness of the Brooklyn Els would have been a merger of the BMT and IRT, replacing Park Row and City Hall with one through station.
Yes, but without much of the purpose of the Myrtle and Lexington Els as realistic through routes
Let's be realistic about the Myrtle and lexington line's 'through routes'. They ran only to Park Row (yes, u do address that next, so will i), and then forced you to change to an IRT el or the train terminated in downtown brooklyn. This is worse than the existing G train, which at least lets you transfer for free.
What would have truly exploited the usefulness of the Brooklyn Els would have been a merger of the BMT and IRT, replacing Park Row and City Hall with one through station.
The manhattan els to which you refer would ultimately be torn down, something that was ultimately the right decsion, providing that the subway to replace them had been built as scheduled. Also keep in mind that the els crossed the brooklyn bridge, something that most surely could not be accomplished by heavier cars. Face it, the Myrtle el outlived its usefulness, as it no longer had it's connection over the brooklyn bridge, and served even less people than the G. The G connects to manhattan routes on both ends, the Myrtle did not. The G is a subway, the Myrtle was an el that couldnt support heavy trains. Suggesting that rebuilding the myrtle el would be better than the crosstown section from Myrtle to Hoyt is absurd. You guys dont think of riders when you come up with this stuff, do you?
Which forces those headed downtown to transfer.
then forced you to change to an IRT el
Some people prefer IRT Els to IND Subways. Transfers have now stopped costing an extra fare, so Park Row - City Hall is an obvious lost opportunity. A through station would have been even better - don't tell me you wouldn't enjoy a train doing, for instance, 241st St - Bronx Express - 2nd Avenue Express - Fulton St - Brighton Local - CI.
the brooklyn bridge, something that most surely could not be accomplished by heavier cars.
Lighter subway cars - what a good idea - I'm sure someone has thought of that before. Might even have been able to 4 track the Brooklyn Bridge ;-)
Face it, the Myrtle el outlived its usefulness, as it no longer had it's connection over the brooklyn bridge
As a result of willful decisions by the TA. Anyone who's out to close a line can design a way of making it too awkward to use.
The G is a subway, the Myrtle was an el that couldnt support heavy trains.
So it's dark and the trains wear out the track more quickly. Big advantage.
Suggesting that rebuilding the myrtle el would be better than the crosstown section from Myrtle to Hoyt is absurd.
Not in the least - that section of the Crosstown line cut off people from a one seat ride to Manhattan and messed up the Eastern Division without offering any real alternative connections. Hylan came up with some pretty bad ideas - that one is one of his worst.
Given the choice what would you have done:
- leave the Els up and extend the Hillside Av Line to Springfield Blvd
- tear down the Els and replace with a subway on an inferior alignment
I know which sounds better to me...
Irrational ones. House prices tend to increase towards transit lines.
make a transfer to the L line
At Lorimer not Myrtle - that's a huge distance apart. It shows what a dumb route the Crosstown Line follows.
AND make the transfer to the 7 and QB lines
If that were really so important for people in downtown Brooklyn, the Myrtle Avenue Line would have been extended to Jackson Heights. There's a nice ROW just sitting there ready to be used...
but there's no way that the Myrtle El can be considered better than today's crosstown line.
I hold to my original position that the Crosstown Line is an inadequate attempt at the same axis as the Myrtle Avenue Line, in so doing messing up its own success as a Union - Marcy Avenues Line.
I think our basic difference is that you like the IND and I'm not so keen on it.
I had misread the previous comment. You are correct. My apologies.
avid
very simple in order to give the M its full glory, the ta should put it on the brighton express labeled as "via lower manhattan" instead of nassau street, and advertise it- and of course make some G.O.'s that force people to take it, that is the best advertising
Seriously though, Chambers Street was originally planned to be called Brooklyn Bridge. Somewhere along the line they thought it would be better to call it Chambers Street instead. I have seen the original plans for the tilework of the station (I think on Joe Brennan'd abandoned station site, but don't remember), and instead of Chambers it was to be Brooklyn Bridge.
As for the M on the Brighton, it will probably not happen again. The temporary reroute to the West End seems like it will be permanent. It's probably more needed on 4th Ave anyway. But we shall see in 2004.
-- Ed Sachs
From the railfan point of view, making the M the primary, all-times all local stops run, from Metro Av to CI via West End makes the most sense, with 6th Av service on the West End terminating at 9th Av non rush hours.
Thanks in advance.
BTW, did any one get to enjoyed the beautiful xylophone performance on the Bway-Lafayette station around 9 pm last night? I wonder if he is a regular.
So which is it 1939 or 1933, we got conflicting dates here on when it opened. The line to Roosevelt Ave was opened in 1933, but meaning that the tunnel was open at that point. But on the map I have seen from 1934, there is no Ely station! Was 23rd-Ely built as a shell in 1933, and not opened until 1939? Or was it built as an afterthought in the tunnel? The trains were definitely passing Ely's location in 1934.
BTW, there is no intersection of 23rd Street and Ely Avenue, as the station name suggests. The original name of 23rd Street in Queens was Ely Avenue, but since the changeover occurred just before the station opened, the station was given both names so that people who knew the street name as "Ely Avenue" would know that the station referred to that street. (There is also a legend that the station was given both names to avoid confusion between that station and the various 23rd Street stations then existing on the BMT, IRT and the 8th Avenue IND.)
I believe that the station was given a facelift in the 1990's because of a renaissance in the LIC area.
I believe that the station was given a facelift in the 1990's because of a renaissance in the LIC area.
It is a very well kept IND station - probably one of the nicest IND stations in the system. The color combination is very attractive, and the tiles are in great shape (I think they are still original).
wayne
I know from having worked there a few times, there are customers who get off there thinking they're at 23 Street Manhattan.
It wasn't even 4 years!
He also played "Just the way you are" when I was there. It's not my favorite, but I like what he'd play before and after that song.
I think my boyfriend spotted him also at the Jay Street/Boro Hall station a few days. May be he is an F-train fan.
On the express track going eastbound (northbound), right after the train leaves Roosevelt, there's a posted speed limit: 35 MPH. A little later, right near Elmhurst, another sign: 36 MPH. Then, by the end of Elmhurst, another sign for 35 MPH. Then finally, a little bit after Elmhurst, another sign, this time for 36 MPH.
Is the MTA crazy? Do they enjoy making speed limit signs and putting them up? Or perhaps that one MPH makes a major difference?
Any takers? Your guess is as good as mine.
S/b leaving 103 st on the 1. Posted GT 30. Two automatics followed by two homeballs in 300'. Do 30mph and hit all four.
Although I'd prefer the stuffed bunny to the grand prize in that arcade. :(
URL: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-bc-ny--moynihan-pennstat0327mar27,0,1577721.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
---Brian
Michael
Washington, DC
The next station is National Airport!
Renaming the current complex after the Senator may also work, because of the favorable opinion most people held of Moynihan. But after 92 years with the name Penn Station, it does come off a bit like putting hair on a fish, or -- in a more New York-related equivalent -- putting Avenue of the Americas signs on Sixth Ave. You can call it Moynihan Station, but the public may just be too comfortable with the old name.
It's not a terminal. Grand Central is a terminal, but Penn Station isn't.
So Moynihan Terminal could refer to LIRR specifically, or NJT specifically, but not Amtrak.
Let's see now. Is the goal to honor the late Mr. Moynihan or to confuse the public? :-)
Tom
Given that government is involved, there can be only one answer: YES!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only when I'm coming to NYC via the Hamilton Fish (Newburgh Beacon) Bridge, although sometimes I use the Malcolm Wilson (Tappan Zee) Bridge. And when the Leif Ericson (Belt) Parkway has too much traffic, sometimes I use the Jackie Robinson (Interboro) Parkway.
The last one, the Jackie Robinson, that one seems to have "taken" better than most.
--Mark
But I call it the Jackie Interboro.
The new 'Moyn' Station! Like 'coin' but with an 'M' instead of a 'C.' Good? :)
BTW, I agree
Peace,
ANDEE
Why that would be like changing the name of the Belt Pkwy to the POW/MIA Memorial Hwy!
Chicago has a major railway station (now used only for Metra commuter trains) which everyone knows as North Western Station. Now, North Western Station was never it's official name -- it's official name (when it was owned by the Chicago & North Western Railroad) was Chicago Passenger Terminal. But everyone called it North Western Station (and most people still do).
Then, the railroad sold the station to Metra (the commuter rail agency), and Chicago & North Western was swallowed up by Uncle Pete (that Union Pacific). So Metra, in their infinite wisdom tried changing the name to "Metra Passenger Terminal". This failed, mainly because it was a terminal for only 3 of Metra's 12 lines. So, a few years ago, along with a major renovation of the trainshed and platform areas, renamed the station again, this time in honor of the former Illinois governor who was instrumental in setting up the Regional Transportation Authority (RTA, parent agency of Metra). A noble move, but the main entrance to the station is still through the Citicorp Center (office building built where the head house once stood), with a few signs saying "Metra Trains" but no sign saying "Ogilvie Transportation Center" and is almost directly across the street from the north entrance to Union Station (3 more Metra lines, plus more on the south end).
Lot's of confused tourists looking for North Western Station. CTA busses still list "NW Station" as their destination. And I've never been able to bring myself to ask a cab driver to take me to "Richard B. Ogilvie Transportation Center", but if I ask to go to "North Western Station", they know where to take me.
-- Ed Sachs
This history-based objection to renaming Penn Station is a little much. "Pennsylvania Station" is a building between 7th and 8th Avenue named after the Pennsylvania Railroad. The railroad is gone and, IMHO, so is the building.
And there are other Penn Stations, also named after the railroad, elsewhere. The State of Pennsylvania still exists, however the rail station that most deserves to bear its name is called 30th Street station, as it it were a local stop on the Broad Street subway. Maybe if we stop calling ours Penn Station, they can start calling their Penn Station.
A new name is fitting and appropriate. We could call it Amtrak station, but NJT, the LIRR, and the subway also go there, and MetroNorth may in the future. And Amtrak may not last in its present form with its present name. Naming things after living companies is more risky than naming them after dead politicians (ie. Pan Am building, RCA building, Chrysler Building). I expect Moynihan, unlike Elvis, to stay dead.
New York Moynihan Station is as good a name as Shea Stadium. Just as Shea was the prime mover in bringing NL baseball back to NY, Moynihan was the prime mover in bringing a grand building back to New York's inter-city railroading.
Naming NEW or UN-NAMED buildings or complexi is something I do not really have a problem with. Re-naming long standing historic locations is something I DO have a problem with.
This whole Fairley station thing is a half-assed screw up. Penn Station needs to be rebuilt in its original facade and MSG IV needs to be dumped in the meadowlands.
Forward into the past. Someone wrote a book about New York City called "The Future Once Happened Here." We are caught between current but uncommited city residents, with no stake or confidence in the future, who want nothing to change. And no residents, usually former residents, who want to go backward to the "golden age."
Worse instances than names. How about those who want to rebuild the WTC exactly as it was, and those who want to leave the site abandoned?
www.forgotten-ny.com
8 Ave-Patrick Moynihan Blvd
or
Patrick Moynihan Expwy-Formerly Clearview Expwy.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan Memorial
PENNSYLVANIA STATION
I think that naming only the Amtrak station planned for the Farley building after Moynihan is the best solution. Then "Moynihan Station" clearly denotes the "new" passenger rail station, the building that it's in is still called "Farley", and the existing Penn Station between 7th and 8th Ave keeps its name as well.
But no matter how deserving, if the station is named after him, will it still be available for corporate sponsorship? In the next budget crunch they may want to call it the "Sony Play Station." :-)
Tom
Could not disagree more!
Federal funds most definitely ought to be spent on the most heavily-used station in our national passenger railroad system. Penn Station is also a major terminus and transfer point between several of Amtrak's services, and having passngers wait, get information, grab a bite, etc., while fighting for elbow-room with local NJT and LIRR commuters in that 7 foot high rabbit warren is arguably one of the most prominent and disgusting aspects of inter-city rail service which sends trevellers scurrying to LaGuardia, JFK, EWR, and even PABT, just to avoid having to deal with the glorified ant-farm that is our city's current offering to would-be inter-city train patrons.
If New York State and City received in return anywhere near what we pay to the IRS, I might give your point some credence. However, I have no compunction about the feds shelling-out some cash to broaden the intermodality of our national transportation infrastructure, which politics has caused to suffer inexcusably for over half a century!
but seriously imagine if BMW does go into the railcar business? Do they have a stake in any kind of industrial/commerce vechicles?
(B) 2004-
(M) until the late 80s
(QT) until 1967
Please note this is what the suptment and can change without notice.
Robert
Robert
David
---Brian
---Brian
This G.O. has been POSTPONED until next week. High winds (as forecast) make it too dangerous to use the cranes that are necessary to the project.
David
Robert
Robert
David
http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USCT0061_f.html
-Larry
---Brian
That's not speedy by my standards, nor should it be by yours.
Compared to the automobiles, on the street above, it is speedy.
Peace,
ANDEE
---Brian
---Brian
For those who can't find one I have typed in (with a couple of minor adjustments for better understanding) below:
Fare Change Information
Pay-Per-Ride (Regular) MetroCard
Beginning May 4, 2003 the new $2.00 fare
will be deducted from your card. You will not
need to buy a new card.
New $10 MetroCard - pay for 5 rides and get 6
New $20 MetroCard - pay for 10 rides and get 12.
Free MetroCard Transfers remain the same.
--------------------------------------------------
Unlimited Ride MetroCard
Beginning May 4, new fares go into effect.
New fares:
1-Day Fun Pass $7
7-Day card $21
30-Day card $70
7-Day Express Bus Plus $33
30-Day Express Bus Plus Discontinued
Cards purchased before May 4 have grace periods
and will work through the following dates:
1-Day Fun Pass May 5
7-Day card May 13
30-Day card June 12
7-Day Express Bus Plus Not Applicable
30-Day Express Bus Plus June 12
Reduced-fare customers who add unlimited rides
to their cards before May 4 can continue to use
these unlimited rides until they run out.
-------------------------------------------------
Tokens
March 30 - token sales limited to two per person
April 13 - tokens no longer sold
May 4 - tokens not accepted in turnstiles
Tokens will be accepeted on buses, with additional
50 cents through December 31, 2003
Refunds for unused tokens must be made in person
at NYC Transit, 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn.
Please call 1-718-243-3917 for an appointment.
--------------------------------------------------
Reduced-Fare Customers
May 4 - $1 ($2 round trip) fare for senior citizens
and customers with disabilities with Reduced-Fare MetroCard.
Apply now for Reduced-Fare MetroCard to save time and money.
Visit mta.info or call 1-718-243-4999.
Reduced-fare customers who add unlimited rides
to their cards before May 4 can continue to use
these unlimited rides until they run out.
--------------------------------------------------------
TransitChek
TransitCheck MetroCard will continue to work after May 4.
---------------------------------------------------------
Students
Free with valid Student MetroCard. $1 with Half-Fare
Student MetroCard, buses only.
---------------------------------------------------------
Refunds
For unlimited ride cards purchased prior to May 4,
refunds will be made on a pro-rate basis. Ask for
postage-paid envelope available on buses and
at station booths, to return your card.
---Brian
P.S. I was asked "... is this official". I said, "look here it's from Allan". I got a strange look back, to which I reponded "it's someone I know personally & believe it is what it professes to be." Thought you would get a laugh out of this exchange my friend.
I imagine that the "take ones" will make their way to every station booth within the next week or so.
It isn't on the MTA site (as of this morning) yet but I am sure that will be taken care of in due time.
Metro-North fare increases
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is raising fares on the mass transit systems under its control, including the Metro-North Railroad. The chart below shows current fares to or from Grand Central Terminal, the fares that will be in effect starting May 1, and the reduced fares that will be charged for tickets purchased through the mail or via the Web. New York City subway and bus fares will increase from $1.50 to $2 a ride, with discounts for multi-ride MetroCard purchases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
White Plains(Harlem Line)
Ticket type - Current fare - New fare - Web/Mail fare
Monthly - $141.00 - $175.00 - $171.50
Weekly - $44.00 - $56.00 - $53.20
1-way (peak) - $6.50 - $8.00 - $7.60
1-way off-peak - $5.00 - $6.00 - $5.70
10-trip peak - $65.00 - $80.00 - $76.00
10-trip off-peak - $45.00 - $51.00 - $48.45
Sr/Dis - $3.25 - $4.00 - $3.80
Sr/Dis 10-trip - * - $40.00 - $38.00
*The 10-trip discounted fare for senior citizens and disabled passenger is a new class of ticket.
FYI - 8-) ~ Sparky
It's here now.
---Brian
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=465528
---Brian
Posted on:3/28/03 8:57:26 AM
Police Close NYC Bridge, Not Terrorism-Related
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Police closed New York's Williamsburg Bridge on Friday after three men were arrested for climbing on it, but said the incident was not terrorism-related.
A police spokesman said the bridge, one of several linking Manhattan to the borough of Brooklyn on the East River, was being searched by police and other emergency units who have been on high security alert since the U.S. led war on Iraq (news - web sites) started last Thursday.
"We do not believe it is terrorist related," said an official with the New York Police Department, which has been on highest alert since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. "There is no suspicious package."
Police source said they believed the incident may have been a prank by the three men.
Peace,
ANDEE
May I point out:
1. There is significant risk of life for police officers in dealing with people hanging out for any reason on a bridge. They may be deranged and end up trying to pull you down with them. I don't think all police officers are wonderful people, but when it comes to dealing with totally off the wall types they are willing to risk their personal safety to restore order. This is a case where they specifically are not cowards.
2. Long before 9/11, it was police polciy to close a bridge if someone was engaged in any kind dangerous activity (such as threatening to jump) there.
TRANSIT PROJECT UPDATE
Posted by Xtrainexp. on Mon Mar 24 10:59:50 2003
Anybody remember this thread?
"I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metoropolitan areas atlases. Suffice to say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and I have used all the letters, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routings, names of lines and route markers, leave your repsonses/questions here and I'll answer them as thoroughly as I can."
I have since updated that subway expansion plan and now have changed the context. Instead of just suggesting proposals of new lines and extending this line or that line, I have created an entire NYC Metropolitan Area subway systems that basically answered the question, what if these lines existed in another reality? So I tailored the project within a fictional context, where all past proposals of extensions and new service made the MTA, TA and when the IRT, BMT and IND were separate systems, have been realized. It made more sense to portray all the "New Routings" this way. The majority of the project is placed in a historical context, giving the impression that the lines actually exist.
Anyway, a handful of Subtalkers have responded to my earlier version of this project. The content of the documents they received before are basically the same, except with some new additions and edits. I still have their email addresses, so they will automatically receive the updated posts.
As for the reason for this post, I'm looking for more subtalkers who are interested in reading a "book" of transit fiction. I had found, while composing this project, to be a fascinating and unusual read. I have a total of 8 chapters; I have completed Chapters 1, 2, 3 and am currently finishing up on Chapter 5 and currently working on Chapter 4. I will begin emailing requests from interested subtalkers at the end of April or the beginnig of May when I anticipate Chapter 4 will be completed. Like the original post, I can answer questions here on the board for those of you who have not seen the original thread that first advertised this project back in November 2001. I also will have some questions to ask the board that would be useful to include in my project, as I know some of you are very knowledgeable about transit operations--especially the subtalkers who are transit employees. They will likely be technical questions, ones that are currently not found on the nyc.subway.org website. The questions will be posted as they occur to me, and when I reach a point in the project that I need an answer to that I can't answer.
Most of you have emails that are easily accessed by clicking on your handle. But I won't send anything unsolicited, unless you aske me to, or request a project. So again, all interested parties who are intersted in viewing this latest edition of my transit project, please respond, or click on my handle and email me.
By the way, The X train is a new showpiece routing. Just thought I tempt you a bit! LOL
Dwayne
Xtrainexp.
Chapter one is about 15 pages,
Chapter two is about 44 pages
Chapter three is 110 pages and contains the heart of the project,
The appendix to Chapter three is about 109-112 pages, and contains more valuable information to the project
Chapter 4 I'm not sure of yet, since I have just started composing it, but I'm guessing about 40-60 pages
Chapter 5, which focuses on the rolling stock used in the project is about 115 pages.
It is a lot of information, I know, but once you read it, and for others that do the same, it is well worth it.
P.S. You're right, about mine project dealing with more than one trunk line. I used original trunk lines as well as nearly all proposed lines from the IND Second System. Newark and Jersey City have routes as well.
(or point to URL:http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/70838p-65849c.html)
Some guys will do anything for attention. CBS News indicated that they may have been intoxicated.
wayne
:0)
Because they're so freakin' paranoid that the towel heads are going to attack. "Operation Atlas," what a joke.
Paranoia does not equal cowardice. And in any case, if it's paranoia, it's the political leaders who are engaging in the paranoia, not the police. The police are implemnting the agenda of the political leaders, and sometimes risking their lives to do it.
wayne
I wonder whether they'll face some sort of civil liability for the costly disruptions they created.
In some neighborhoods this would make them legends, getting free drinks whenever they arrived at the local pub.
Tom
Totally aside from any terrorism concerns, it borders on reckless endangerment. Police officers had to risk their lives to get these guys back to safety, and that was a forseeable result of their actions.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
John
**And significantly differs from Subtalkers’ views!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I used to get outraged about it, but then I've come to learn that the voters WANT politicos to lie to them and go out of their way to vote for the one with the longest ... err ... protuberance.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
*oe *runo and who?
T*** L*** was not majority leader at the time. He was minority leader, or perhaps majority leader-elect, or incoming majority leader, or former and future majority leader, or Senate Republican leader.
He was forced to resign in late 2002, a week or two before he would have become majority leader. The newly elected Senators only take office in the first days of January.
PS. Numerous reporters made the same mistake.
I think the Stillwell/Coney Island Renovation is great, unlike probably everybody here. I think it is great because the Coney Island neighborhood has seen some dramatic changes in the last few years for the better. The old station was dirty, smelled like urine in a few places, and gave people a feeling of being unsafe (my friends and family, not me!!). I think the MTA could have just as easily power-washed, painted, rebuilt the entrances to, and done some minor renovations on the old station. But with the structure being so old and the fact that they probably have to make the whole facility handicapped accessible because of federal law, the option they choose is probably not that much more expensive then renovating the old station.
I guess in my opinion the old station just wasn't that beautiful to save. The new ridership that the new station will attract along with the many renovations the neighborhood has seen in the last few years outweighs saving the old station. Coney Island is a great place to spend a hot summer day or even a cold day at the NY Aquarium. It deserves an attractive subway station.
Now I'm not saying that in every case new beats old. Take for instance the Niles Michigan Amtrak Station. It was built in the late 1800's and is really beautiful. Same thing with the street running in Michigan City Indiana on the South Shore Line. There are many more examples, but I can't think of any right now off the top of my head.
On the other hand, all the station on the Cermak/Douglas branch of the CTA blue line were decrepit and falling down. Now all have been demolished and are under reconstruction. (Except Polk, 18th, Cicero, which were re-built in the 70's & 80's). They also were old and didn't really have anything worth saving. The neighborhoods along that line also deserve better transit stations and are getting them.
BJ
8-) ~ Sparky
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yesterday, spotted 2 sets in Jam yard (North) and also testing(?) at Valley Stream at approx. 11 am
E-mail me if any subtalker is interested.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Lawmakers
"Meanwhile, Young announced on March 19 that his committee had reached an agreement with Budget Committee Chairman Jim Nussle (R-Iowa) that will allow for new budget authority for highway and transit
programs."
Ahem. Jim Nussle used to be my Congresman. Now I got Latham. Nussle is a usta-be born-again Lutheran, till he violated the Mann Act with his legislative assistant (he has utter contempt for the laws of Virginia). I think it's fair to say that Jim Nussle is anti-transit. All he cares about is interstate highways and the sweet odor of hog lots wafting over $250,000 tract houses (i.e., he's a schitzoid adulterer).
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Let's hope the W regime dosen't foul it up.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Senate
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I don't get the reason for the name.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Amtrakmakes
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With service disruptions like this no wonder people don't often consider rail as a viable alternative
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Piedmont
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If Amtrak got a dime for every good intention...
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Travelports
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Seven
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#Kansas
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About time someone reigned in this light rail craze.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df03242003.shtml#FTA
Take Pride,
Brian
The el is the 'L' in Chicago.
Right down to current CTA maps.
Jim K
Chicago
Besides, it's still an "el" in Chicago whether the CTA uses "L" or not. And outside of the railfan community, very few Chicagoans are that provincial about it. Would you complain if I called the Metro in Paris a subway?
Eric
Lake View
If you're living in Lakeview, you must be close to where I'm living, because I live in East Lakeview also. I'm in the vicinity of Belmont, between Broadway & Sheridan Road.
And yes to answer your question about complaining, the Paris Metro is not referred to as the subway. The London Underground or Tube is not referred to as the subway.
However, it is a minor thing. I just feel we should be proper when referring to things such as our beloved 'L'.
Jim K.
Chicago
What a hoot! I live on Briar between Broadway and Cambridge.
Would it not be great to have the #36 Broadway still be a streetcar line? And the #77 Belmont a ETB?
I've lived in Lakeview since 1996, but if my offer on a condo up north in Edgewater on Kenmore north of Berwyn is accepted, I'll be re-locating in July.
I hope I can see action on the North Side 'L' from my new place looking down Balmoral.
Do you take the 'L' to work or the #156?
Jim K.
Chicago
Actually though, if I were going to modify the M route with the Chrystie Street Cut, I'd explore sending it up to 145th Street or 168th Street via the Central Park West Local/8th Avenue Local and leave the V as is. CPW needs more service, I think; particularly on weekends. I proposed 8th Avenue local because there seems to be more room there. And they're already used to 8-car (60') trains along that run by virtue of the C.
Let me do this by example. A route, let's call it 'K' with a northern terminal at, say, 145th Street and a southern terminal at, say, Brighton Beach or Bay Parkway running as follows: Central Park West Local/8th Avenue Local (alternatively 6th Avenue Local)/[Chrystie Street Reverse Cut]/Nassau Street Local/Montague Street Tunnel then either 4th Avenue/West End Local or Brighton Local (ala ole ye olde M, via Montague Street Tunnel).
This would, I think serve to re-invigorate much of the Nassau Street Line by not ducking out of Manhattan so fast, if only in my imagination. If the Nassau Street line were not going to be used as a lower portion of the Second Avenue Subway (which other members here seem to think and I've nothing contrary to say), then this might be something to explore to bring some glory back to that line (Chambers Street seems to proud a station for lines that go out of Manhattan so fast). Maybe the platforms could be extended too (the island platforms might be difficult, I concede).
Another possiblity as AlM mentioned, is to completely switch the 8th and 6th Avenue locals south of West 4th interlocking, which can be done without tying up service on the C, E, F and V lines, because of how the interlocking is set up.
1. If the M does not go to Brooklyn, then the W ought to. I just feel weird with the Montague Street Tunnel that underused; presumably this mitigates the M not proceeding through Downtown Brooklyn, the 4th Avenue and West End lines.
2. There is the clearance/rolling stock issue. 75' cars may not be able to clear the present M route (I say 'may' because I am not certain; I think 67' cars made it along the route, but perhaps 75 feet is just too much), but I suppose things could be shifted around such that the proposed M receives 60' cars with the R-46 trainsets going to the E and extending the G.
3. Eastern Division platforms can only handle 8-car B Division trains. Thus, more trains would have to be run to maintain the same quality of service on the Queens Boulevard/6th Avenue Local. Shorter trains running on shorter headways, relatively.
At the moment, extension of the W with the M/V looks good to me, as laid out here, but there may be points I have not seen. Others will point them out, of course.
If they use the Winfield Branch trackage past Roosevent Terminal, as described on this site, to build a link into the NYCRR line and down to the M's current terminal at Metropolitan, the M/V could run in a loop via Queens Blvd, 6th Avenue, Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle. Outer stations on the QB local could be served by the R, which could battery-run express from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. The stations east of Roosevent have higher ridership than those to the west.
By the way, how wide is that right of way from Roosevelt to Metropolitan? Enough for two subway tracks and one freight track? How about the rest of the way around, down to the Bay Ridge line? Does anyone know the width in tracks from Hell Gate to the Brooklyn Army Terminal?
See especially "New York Connecting Railroad ROW Picture Gallery #3", and if I understand your proposal right (your terms confuse me abit, so it's quite likely we may not be thinking on the same wavelength, but hopefully not) then this excerpt from there is relevant:
"A view of the New York Connecting Railroad right-of-way, looking geographically south. Although the line is presently single-tracked, the line was originally designed to be able to accommodate a two track road. The new railroad bridges that are being built will accommodate two tracks, as warranted by CSX.
Who knows... if the a new freight train tunnel is built connecting New Jersey and Bay Ridge Brooklyn, the old New York Connecting Railroad line may one day see a lot more freight traffic then is currently run over the line. It is good to see that CSX and New York State has provisioned the line to continue to have enough right-of-way for a two-track road."
Of course, due to the FRA issues, which I recently learned about, there could not be freight/subway intermingling.
Thats the thing. When I was at a bowling alley adjacent to ROW in Borough Park, it didn't seem like more than two tracks would fit. So clearly the ROW has variable widths along different sections.
I should have made it clear that the Bay Ridge is PRIMARILY four tracks wide but that a short stretch is two tracks wide due to property easement issues.
Much more important was that it was one of the first times that the people of the City stood up to Robert Moses and told him that they were not going to tolerate Brooklyn being totally destroyed by highways. When those of us living in Bay Ridge at the time watched the disaster that his useless expressway to the Bridge caused, when there could have been a simple loop arrangement from the Belt Parkway, the rest of Brooklyn rebelled against more such damage. Neighborhoods like Bensonhurst, Flatbush and Bushwick, or what was left of them after all the paving and entrance and exit ramps, would have looked like the route of the Cross-Bronx Expressway.
And of course, no provision on the V-N Bridge for transit. (Moses even called the call for bicycle access "stupid" the day the bridge opened.)
I wonder whether light rail might be appropriate for a cross-Brooklyn route, providing connections to all the north-south routes in the Borough. It could be a surprise success like the Green Line in Los Angeles.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
My idea is to put a roof on the ROW from Bay Ridge to E. Flatbush. Trains could use the lower level, if freight service revives. The upper level could be BRT and a linear park with bike paths. It would allow access to employment centers in Sunset Park and near the Brooklyn Terminal Market, and Brooklyn College, without a slow local bus ride or a ride into Downtown Brooklyn and back out.
No. Lindsay sought to attract support by appealing to every NIMBY interest out there. Upset about rising taxes, rising crime and declining services? Here, I'll change the zoning so no new buildings can be built in your neighborhood.
The Cross-Brooklyn, are placement for a Moses-proposed expressway from the Conduit Blvd across Bushwich to the Willie B, was an attempt to show that Lindsay wasn't completely against everything. It died in the cradle, if it was ever alive.
Hate to bring it up here....but the truth is, southern Brooklyn probably would have benefited from better limited access east/west highways. Atlantic Avenue, while being very useful for cross Brooklyn travel just doesn't make it as a highway. Eastern Parkway, Linden Blvd, Kings Hwy, even the Belt, none of these were and are adequate in this regard.
Grades on the bridge and its approaches are much too steep for jusst about any kind of rail transit. I've heard that the Brooklyn approaches would have had to be over a mile long in order to keep grades low enough.
Or you could call it an el.
Anyone know how wide the East New York tunnel is, and the portion of the ROW in Ridgewood, Middle Village and Maspeth?
Now, an R-142 running on the New Lots Avenue Line isn't of itself that wierd. It could have just been a put-in to the 2, 4, or 5, right? That's what I thought at first. But I looked at the signs as we got closer...IT WAS SIGNED AS A 3!!!! I had camera in hand but unfortunately I wasn't quick enough-I was on a R-143 (L) going top speed into Livonia. By the time I got off it was already stopped at Pennsylvania-too far away for a pic that would be able to see the (3) sign. PLEASE...don't tell me this means they're replacing the (3) with the Cyclopses...TELL ME THEY WERE PLAYING WITH THE SIGN OR IT WAS BROKEN...PLEASE!
AMI
Peace
David
til next time
We'll see though. Please make sure you note the car numbers if possible and post 'em.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I hope train horns weren't THE ONLY thing you were sitting there listenin' to, brah...
I know that the there was supposed to be a release of the S train shuttle 42nd street for BVE... Any news or updates on the release? Thanks!!!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
AMI
Well here's the big show. The throat of Chicago Union station from the Roosevelt Rd. overpass. What trip to Chicago would be complete without this famous shot. Note the US&S S-8 CPL dwarf signals that Amtrak installed. The one on the far left is displaying a RESTRICTING aspect.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_CUS-Throar-Roosevelt-Ave-dusk.jpg
Roosevelt is especially nice because it is w/in an arms reach of a 6 or so track signal gantry. It was here I noticed something shocking. The signals are of the typical V-aligned target type, but if you look at the upper heads you'll see that the lamp housing is the old US&S 3-unit type instead of a modern single unit CR-2. US&S stopped making the 3-unit type ages ago and I have no clue where Amtrak got them (they look new) or WHY they installed them (more maintainence and harder to change bulbs). Also note the SafeTran Unilens signal in the lowest head.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_CUS_Roosevelt-Ave-Gantry-rear-1.jpg
Here is a more artictic shot of the gantry in the fading sunlight.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_CUS_Roosevelt-Ave-Gantry-rear-dusk.jpg
Ok, as some of you might know, when there is snow on the tracks the train's movement tends to kick it up into a fine powder. On single level Amfleets this powder can easily get inbetween the cars turning the vestabules into wonderful snowscapes. Here was the most extreme example of such on the eastbound LSL in NY State in three images. This is what I love about American rail travel. Its so Raw. You really feel the excitement. Don't get any of this on a TGV, no sir.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_LSL-Snowy-Vestabule.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_LSL-Snowy-Vestabule-2.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_LSL-Snowy-Vestabule-4.jpg
Here is a 50's vintage Budd built Heritage Dining car stopped at the Albany Station.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_Diner-8507.jpg
The engine on the Empire Service train accross the platform.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_714-nose.jpg
And finally a shot of the New Albany Union Station in bright sunlight.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_Albany-Union-Station-Roof.jpg
Any comments, critiques or other info will be greatly appriciated. I don't post these for my health you know.
Any heads up on what camera you used?
Nice stuff, tho' ... VERY nice stuff!
Great picture of the "southern throat" to Union Station. I work at 100 S. Wacker, and can see into Union Station from the river side.
What I wouldn't give to see the PRR Broadway Limited pulling out of Union Station at 5:00 PM CT, headed by two E8, painted in Tuscan Red along with the matching trainset.
Oh well, I can dream.
Thank you for sharing this picture series. Even though I live here, I don't get out enough with my camera.
Jim K.
Chicago
That's not so weird!
Jim K.
Chicago
---Brian
---Brian
Tony
#3 West End Jeff
I guess the ran there until they were scrapped!
: ) Elias
It most certainly is!
Or, if he has no physical manifestation, and is just a spirit, then technically everything is bigger than him.
Or if you're thinking of Jesus' body, then a redbird is bigger, but an insect probably isn't. However, in rainforests, chances are there are some strange mutant insects larger than Jesus, in which case there are insects bigger than Jesus.
Now for Transit related: could god make a rush hour on Lex avenue so congested that he himself couldn't get the train doors closed in 30 seconds?
I suspect it was a parody of John Lennon's famous (and controversial) line, "The Beatles are bigger than Jesus."
Yeah, what ever happened to those guys after that remark destroyed their careers? :-)
Tom
Did anyone catch a glimpse of Rod Serling (or Forest Whitaker) on the platform as the train departed the station? :-)
Tom
Or at least 76th Street......
A redbird car is certainly bigger than a human, since it was designed to carry about 100 of them (in varying degrees of comfort, give or take, your mileage may vary…)
Your mention of insects suggests that there is a Jesus ???, of whatever size.
Lastly, they are bigger than your Latin-American friend Jesús, whom you met last week.
Maybe you could explain this joke for those of us who haven’t got it yet (I think all of us!)
Yours in wierdness,
John
Are you referring to the time he said "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set,then there'd be peace"?
Maybe he was wrong. :-(
Tom
I knew this was going to be controversial, however it was intended to be part of a series of threads (about 2 or 3) that was to mock all of the Redbird threads. My intention was not to insult anybody's religion (although I knew that some people would take it badly), but rather to insult the Redbirds.
There were a few flaws in the plan. I didn't develop a good message body to counter the subject, instead leaving the work to future posts, but then I didn't make the future posts. The subject line by itself ends up not mocking the Redbirds, but mocking Jesus, which is not good unless there's a really good reason, which there was not.
So this was all a failed attempt to counter a lot of eruthornithophilia on this board.
But I have to say there was one worthwhile thing about this whole thread: If I hadn't started it, I would not have blessed the world with the coining of the term eruthornithophilia.
---Brian
DEFINATLEY Definitley a matter of opinion.
Peace,
ANDEE
BLASPHEMY!!!
Expect the Fatwah to be issued. :-)
Tom
Congratulations, you've just knocked 250 points off the Dow! Not that I'm complaining, my adult-diaper stand on Wall Street is doing terrific business.
I am certainly glad you did that. It helps prevent misunderstanding. Always remember the motto: Eschew obfuscation! :-)
Tom
Greenport trains between Ronkonkoma and Medford don't seem to get much over 30 or 35 mph as best I can estimate.
In this case, I think there is quite some evidence that if the MTA put in the money there would be a nice return on it as well. Service to some of those stations is spotty at best, and that traffic probably ends up on the Long Island Expressway and parallel routes; that seems a terrible waste.
I wonder if this is one of the circular revenue justification scenarios for maintaining the undesirable status quo (or not even maintaining, as it was in the case of the Port Washington line stations and ROW in Queens), i.e., we won't spend the money because this line doesn't make money when the reality is that revenues will not go up until improvements are made.
And your letters did not go unread. You did a good thing!
State Senator Frank Padavan and Assemblyman Marc Weprin have been effective at getting extra money for the LIRR and for doing things like rebuilding the LIE while increasing Alley Pond Park's size by 12 acres. But they, in turn, need citizens who call or write to them and visit their offices - like you did.
CG
The Greenport line could be a major commuter route, at least as far east as Riverhead, if the LIRR offered something remotely approaching adequate service.
Yesterday, I spotted at least 2 R40M (or R42?) N's on the Astora line.
The R42's are being phased out on the L line as the R143's are taking their place. The 42's will simply run on the J/M lines and all R40M's will be in service out of Coney Island.
The rest of the R-42s will stay at ENY for the J/Z and M until replaced by new R-160s in a few years.
Post Manhattan Bridge, all D equipment comes from Concourse (presently R-68s), but the B equipment is out of Coney Island and will probably come from the present W (presently R-68As, some R-68s). The interesting question is where the D and B will be going in Brooklyn at that time...??? If the B goes to weekdays only as the Brighton Express, it would be reasonable to expect that it will acquire what now runs on the Diamond Q. That would put the present D (Concourse) equipment on the West End and leave the Circle Q as it is.
...and of course the REALLY interesting question is if the N will be re-extended to Manhattan in off-peak hours.....????
We'll see.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The Q should be R68/68A if the B is on the Brighton line. Where do the surplus R68's go? The answer would be the W. This 2004 plan will be very interesting when it comes.
It shouldn't seem as such. Specialization is a good thing, probably, albeit not quite as pleasing for the railfan. Many yards in the system do this, e.g. (what follows may be inaccurate in some respects; please feel welcome to bring these to my attention),
Jamaica: R-32, R-46
Pitkin: R-38, R-44
207th Street: R-32, R-38
East New York: R-40M, R-42, R-143
Concourse: R-68
Coney Island: R-40, R-40M, R-68A
etc.
As for the N running R-32 trainsets, I think that Coney Island is without that model now, having sent them all to Jamaica Yard.
R-68A's are ONLY shopped at Coney Island. Before the Bridge flip, R-68A's were STORED at Concourse, but not SERVICED there, however I guess it would have been possible for some service items to be done at Concourse, if the need arose.
I had a gut feeling that front destination signs would return to the R-32s and sure enough, they did in the early 80s. OTOH the R-16s held on to their multicolored route curtains until they were mercifully put out of their misery. The R-16s also had multicolored side route curtains, something no other car class had. Since they originally had BMT number curtains, the R-16s needed new route signs all around anyway.
(E) Queens Blvd Express
Eighth Avenue Local
Then a new batch of signs were made that included 21 St-Queensbridge and Jamaica Center on the terminal roll. The route readings changed to what they are today
(E) Queens Blvd
8 Avenue
They probably changed the route signs for more flexibility I suppose. Then the most recent batch of side signs are in Helvetica, with larger text that's easier to read. Some of the route signs on the sides have the route bullets in some font resembling Helvetica. I don't know if the side signs on the 32s and 38s have readings for 34 St Herald Square (I know they don't have a reading for 86 St)
Northbound Interior:
207 ST.-WASH. HGTS.
205 ST.-CONCOURSE
BEDFORD PK BLVD.
168 ST.-WASH. HGTS.
168 ST.-JAMAICA
179 ST.-JAMAICA
71-CONTINENTAL AVS
57 ST.
Northbound Exterior:
207TH STREET
WASH. HGTS.
205TH STREET
CONCOURSE
BEDFORD PARK BLVD.
168TH STREET
WASH. HGTS.
168TH STREET
JAMAICA
179TH STREET
JAMAICA
57 ST.
Southbound Interior:
CHAMBERS ST
HUDSON TERMINAL
BROAD ST
SMITH-9 STS
CHURCH AVE
KINGS HIGHWAY
95 ST-4 AV
BAY PARKWAY
PROSPECT PARK
BRIGHTON BEACH
CONEY ISLAND
EUCLID AVE
LEFFERTS BLVD
ROCKAWAY PARK
FAR ROCKAWAY
Southbound Exterior (only listing destination that are in a different format from interior):
95TH STREET
4TH AVENUE
Interior Route:
A 8TH AVE. EXP.
AA 8TH AVE. LCL.
B 6TH AVE. EXP.
BB 6TH AVE. LCL
C 8TH AVE. EXP.
CC 8TH AVE. LCL
D 6TH AVE. EXP.
E 8TH AVE. EXP.
EE BROADWAY LCL.
F 6TH AVE. EXP.
GG BKLYN-QUEENS LCL
HH ROCKAWAY SHUTTLE
J NASSAU ST. EXP.
K 6TH AVE. LCL.
LL 14TH ST. LCL.
M NASSAU ST. EXP.
N BROADWAY EXP.
QB BROADWAY EXP.
RR BROADWAY LCL.
SS SHUTTLE
Exterior Route:
A 8TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
AA 8TH AVENUE
LOCAL
B 6TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
BB 6TH AVENUE
LOCAL
C 8TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
CC 8TH AVENUE
LOCAL
D 6TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
E 8TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
EE BROADWAY
LOCAL
F 6TH AVENUE
EXPRESS
GG BKLYN-QUEENS
LOCAL
HH ROCKAWAY
SHUTTLE
J NASSAU ST.
EXPRESS
K 6TH AVENUE
LOCAL
LL 14TH STREET
LOCAL
M NASSAU ST.
EXPRESS
N BROADWAY
EXPRESS
QB BROADWAY
EXPRESS
RR BROADWAY
LOCAL
SS SHUTTLE
All "TH" in the exterior signs (ie. 8th, 207th) are superscript.
This is just the few that I remember off hand. Since it's been awhile, I may have made some mistakes. But at least it will start the ball rolling.
Seem to the best solution to the curtain roll displays conversation to the less then pleasing flipdot and or LED displays is to use plasma displays. You get the look of a curtain roll without all of the moving parts.
I would be interested if anybody has ever done any R and D to see if this might be a practical and reliable replacement for curtain roll that would still give you the look of a curtain roll.
John
LCD don't do very well in bright light. Try taking your laptop outdoors in the day light and you know what I mean. Plasma displays are dropping in price like a rock. Mind you the plasma displays that would be used in sign boxes would not be nearly as big or expensive as the big screen TV plasma units that are now on the market. Go in to just about any bank or brokerage house and you will see a lot of plasma displays connect to the computers. If a destination sign vender were to produce then in large numbers the price would be quite low. Off the shelf hardware could use to drive them 486 33mhz 256 color VGA running a LINUX OS.
John
It will be cost effective someday. I'm sure that at one time, many thought a roll of fabric with gears and cranks was too costly a replacement for a painted slab of metal hanging in a side window.
There were a number of SubTalkers playing with the roll signs on an
arnine on Sunday, including this poster. Set up the GG Brooklyn~
Queens Crosstown on a GO routing from: Queens Forest Hills to
Brooklyn-Hoyt Street. Or my fave setting S-Special from Broad
Channel to Coney Island. That was later adjusted to an HH Fulton
Street Local from Broad Channel to Acqueduct Race Track. Yes,
as I forwarned the Mommies attending the Birthday Charter, beware
of the Adult Children [aka foamers] in the yard area besides the
Children Children. We did take the kids & parents for an antique
subway ride, besides the party trolley. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Believe it or not, apparently some R-27/30s got them, too. Drat! I looked through the R-27/30 car section and couldn't find the picture I was looking for. In any event, those multicolored route curtains were very rarely found on the R-27/30s. I never saw any of those signs on those cars.
One thing I haven't been able to trace down was whether the original 14-Canarsie name change to 14-Broadway Brooklyn (Short Line) was ever approved in Albany after the 14th Street-Eastern line was extended to Canarsie and was renamed as 16 14th Street-Canarsie.
The numbers were dropped on the post-war Board of Transportation maps but were used on car ends on the R-series from 1948. Curiously, the TA put numbers on the side signs for the first time with the R-16s.
(Sidenote: The B of T claimed they were exempt from PSC supervision when they invented the IRT numbers, so those never got Albany's approval.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Names->Numbers: Never, in the sense we use it today. Before the Chyrstie Street opening, only the Triplexes, Multis and R16s of the production equipment ever carried numbers. But the point is that noone said "take the 1 train, take the 15 train." The numbers were used for ID purposes, like marker lights.
Only names of lines were used in everyday usage, though some routings had common (as in passenger rather than railfan or employee only use) names--the Brighton-Nassau and 4th Avenue-Nassau were "Banker's Specials," the Brighton Local-Broadway Express that ran in the evenings were "Theater Specials."
Numbers->Letters, were equipment based, not date-based. Letters were introduced with the R27s in 1960, but Triplexes kept numbers to the end, and the R16s, IIRC, kept numbers until Chrystie Street.
NOT (afik)
I happen to have the 1964 map spread out on my desk right now. (The World's Fair Map, it is my most favorite TA map, since it was the one that was current when I was a kid) Anyway.... it has NO Number or Letter Markings on it! All routes, IRT, IND, and BMT are designated by NAME.
Well, ok there *are* numbers on it, but they refer to POINTS OF INTEREST not to routes. They are all over the place, but I had never noticed them since THEY ARE NOT TRAINS!
: ) Elias
The 1963 edition map was issued in 1963 and was undated on the cover. It is titled "OFFICIAL NEW YORK SUBWAY MAP AND GUIDE." The copyright however gives the date as 1963. It measures 3" wide by 6 3/8" high. It is gray and maroon on the cover and features a generic subway car entering a two track outdoor station. IRT routes are in black, IND in red and the BMT in green. The Train Service Table lists each division separately and carries only route names for the IRT and the BMT. The IND section list both route letters and names except for the Rockaway Lines which are listed under the "A" as "Connecting Shuttles." This is surprising since the use of "HH Fulton Street Local" for the Rockaway Shuttles became official on February 1, 1962.
The next two editions of the subway map were both issued for the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair and herein is the source of some confusion.
The first one was issued in 1964 and featured a new deisign. The map measures 3 3/4" wide by 5 1/4" inches wide. It is titled "WORLD'S FAIR SUBWAY MAP." It features R-33WF 9306 at the World's Fair Station (aka Willet's Point) with the Unisphere in the background.
The interior map still had each division with its own color except that the IRT Flushing Line is highlighted in blue. The reverse of the map contains a large layout of the World's Fair but no service guide. The copyright date is 1964.
The next edition also has the copyright date of 1964 but actually was issued in 1965 for the second season of the Fair. It is similar to the above except that on the reverse the map of the World's Fair is smaller and there is a service guide again listing the routes by division. It lists IRT routes by name only and IND routes by letter and name and it is the first one to list "HH ROCKAWAY lOCAL." The BMT Eastern Section Routes as well as the Culver and Franklin Shuttles are listed by name only while Southern Section routes except for the shuttles are identified by both letters and name. The first time for N,Q,QB,QT,RR,T and TT.
The next map has the copyright of 1967 but I believe that is was issued in 1966 and I have always refered to it as that. It has the same dimensions as the World's Fair Map but has an R-38 on the front cover and is tittles; "NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY MAP AND GUIDE" and the legend "Compliments of THE NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY." The map still had a separate color for each division and the service guide lists IRT route numbers for the first time (1 thru 7). No route numbers are shown for the shuttles or the Third Avenue Local.
As was typical of TA maps of the time it contained several inaccuracies; ie the midday operation of the Flushing Express continued after the World's Fair is not reflected on this map.
This map is a real collector's item as it contains photos of the Bluebirds (R33-R-36), Silverliners (R-38) and Brightliners (R-32A-R-32) and a nice drawing of the R-40 as it was designed without the steelwork on the front.
The next edition of the subway map was the famous "Chrystie Street" map which was also the last one to be publishes by an independent NYCTA.
Larry, RedbirdR33
That map is special because of the color pictures of two stainless steel cars and the R36 with the World Fair paint (the best for the R36).
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The TA could do so many nice things toward public appreciation of subway history with the occasion of the coming 2004 centennial.
Larry, RedbirdR33
But their stay on the BMT was temporary.
I don't know of any R-9s operating on the BMT before Chrystie Street, though.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Hey, I'm a BMT kinda guy. "Arnine" is generic for everything from 100 through 1802, IMO. ;-)
Sure they did! The (D) Train ran on the Culver all of the time, right into Coney Island.
Elias
The only change I could see so far is the ad for the Railroad Poster exhibition at the TM Gallery. Everything else looks pretty much the same as the January 2003 edition.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
T/O pulls into station. T/O announces stop. T/O then leaves operating position to walk to the rear of the car to open the doors, then clsoe the doors, then giving themself a clear indication to proceed. The T/O then walks back to the front of car and into the operating cab. This is repeated severally. See how full-width cabs help this process along, and hence the use of the R-143 for the OPTO shuttle?
There aren't. I took some final shots of the L yesterday, S-curve, R42s, etc. There were three R42's running and one R40M. Canarsie yard was EMPTY except for two R-143's, one of which was also about to enter service. And ENY Yard had no more R-143's floating around, unless they were in the shop. So my guess is the L needs at least four more trains of R-143's to cover it completely. And AFAIK the only reason R-143's are on the M in the first place is because of the OPTO. If it were otherwise, you'd start seeing (M) stripmaps.
DUE TO MECHANICAL PROBLEMS, IT HAS BECOME NECESSARY TO CANCEL
A NUMBER OF ACELA EXPRESS SCHEDULES FOR 31MAR - 02APR03. IN
ADDITION, TWO ACELA EXPRESSES HAVE BEEN CONVERTED TO METRO-
LINERS WITH NO CHANGE IN TRAIN NUMBERS. THE DETAILS OF THE
CHANGES ARE OUTLINED BELOW:
*** ALL EFFECTIVE 31MAR03 - 02APR03 ***
ACELA EXPRESS TRAINS CANCELLED:
2157 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO ACELA EXPRESS TRAIN 2159
2173 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO ACELA EXPRESS TRAIN 2175
2150 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO REGIONAL SERVICE TRAIN 170
2114 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO THE CAROLINIAN, TRAIN 80.
REGIONAL SERVICE TRAINS CANCELLED:
133 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO REGIONAL SERVICE TRAIN 93.
METROLINER SERVICE TRAINS CANCELLED:
122 -- PASSENGERS MOVED TO REGIONAL SERVICE TRAIN 196.
ACELA EXPRESS TRAINS CONVERTED TO METROLINER SERVICE TRAINS:
2107 -- PASSENGERS RE-BOOKED AS METROLINER SERVICE
2164 -- PASSENGERS TRAVELING BETWEEN ALL POINTS WAS THRU NYP
ARE RE-BOOKED AS METROLINER PASSENGERS; PASSENGERS
TRAVELING ALL POINTS NYP THRU BOS -- OR FROM WAS THRU
NYP TO ALL POINTS NYP THRU BOS -- ARE UNPROTECTED.
PLEASE NOTE: TRAIN 2164 WILL ONLY OPERATE WAS-NYP. REGIONAL
SERVICE TRAIN 142 WILL OPERATE ON THE SHORE LINE ROUTE. THE
UNPROTECTED PASSENGERS FROM 2164 MAY MOVE TO TRAIN 142.
.
ARROW HAS BEEN UPDATED TO REFLECT ALL OF THESE CHANGES (EXCEPT
TRAIN 142'S RE-ROUTE). THE CALL CENTER IS ATTEMPTING TO
CONTACT AFFECTED PASSENGERS.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
One rumor that turned up here on SubTalk was that the M-7's could only run no more than six cars, citing possible problems.
BALDERDASH !
Our LIRR tour guide stated that the reason why the M-7's are only running about six cars is because there aren't enough cars available to run the ten and twelve car consists on the Ronkonkoma and Babylon Branches. It seems they want to run more smaller constists and spread them around the system. When more cars arrive and are accepted for service, they will be running with longer consists on the bigger branches out of Penn Station.
A question posed about how the M-7's did on the President's Day blizzard, our tour guide said they did very well.
Speaking of the President's Day blizzard, normally there should be abour 80 cars OOS (down time) and around 100 or so is considered borderline. After that blizzard, there were about 200 CARS OOS ! I would guess the majority of them M-1's.
Bill "Newkirk"
He didn't state any breakdowns, just that they performed well. Expect some teething pains because they are new. The bugs will be worked out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Our tour guide led us down between the inspection pit tracks and pointed out the part of the M-1 motor that sucks in the snowflakes. This problem lead to the design of the M-3's having air intakes mid consist on the window level. This was to cool the traction motors without bringing in the snowflakes. As the M-1'a gradulally become phased out, so will the motor "flashover" problem.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is there special equipment there that NYCT does not use?
They take care of the C-3 diesel coaches. The diesels themselves are repaired at Dunton Shop.
"Is there special equipment there that NYCT does not use?"
When the group first came into the shop building, we were shown "robots", automated equipment with fork lifts on their fronts that deliver supply parts and accessories. It was a Saturday and the robots were sidelined and the various rebuilding shops were deserted too because of the weekend.
Anyway, back to the robots, they run on rubber tires and their tire tracks are worn into the painted floor, so you see they are used quite frequently. They are self powered and probably are guided on some tracking system so the don't run off course and demolish the water cooler ! There was a DANGER sign on the robot stating that the robot could start up at any time.
There was a blue colored I beam running along the ceiling with "switches" that divert parts to be delivered at any different station. There was some copper looking tubes along the beams that could have been a power rail or guidance system. Not sure exactly what it was. But this system of automated parts delivery was seen by me at a Dunton Shop tour some twenty years ago.. Dunton Shops predates Hillside Facility.
Also there was an automated stock room where a robot picks the parts and delivers it up front, obviously replacing stock room boys of years ago. Our shop tour guide says they are pretty accurate. The large floor robots deliver the heavy and bulky parts. I'm not sure if NYCT and Metro North has an automated parts picking and delivery system. Hope this helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the mid-1980's, when I was at Hughes Aircraft Co. in El Segundo, CA, I wrote IBM mainframe software (COBOL, SAS, JCL, CLISTS) in support of parts procurement for spacecraft. One of the projects supported there was one of the first automated warehouses. The idea was that robots would collect electronic parts and sign them out to engineers. Hardly anybody needed to be in the warehouse itself.
One of the related accomplishments was robotic assembly. For sensitive black boxes intended for spacecraft that could be harmed by skin oils and sweat, you entered the room, loaded a tape with assembly instructions onto a drive. You left to go have lunch or whatever, then came back and was handed your fully assembled black box, the innards untouched by human hands.
Industrial robots won't work well in NYC. They'd join the union and demand $35 per hour plus overtime and retirement at age 50.
I often like reading your posts, even with the sarcasm, but there are times when I truly doubt your ability to make an intelligent and relevant comment about anything. This is one of those times.
No, film is still in the camera. I didn't photogtraph the robots.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wasn't it posted on Upcoming Events ?
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
The M-7 doing well in the storm is no surprise - I see them regularly on the Far Rock line and they run even in the snow. Remember, AC traction means less stuff for snow to get into and screw up. I'm going to predict it here AGAIN - the LIRR will realize BIG cost savings once the entire M-7 fleet comes online. They'll simply be less expensive to run than the M-1s, simply because they dispense with all the contactors, brushes and other headaches of the M-1s.
It looks like the intro of them is going a LOT smoother than the DE/DM-30s, thankfully.
I'm not sure, I didn't measure them with a tape measure. I can report that the dreaded low back three seater aisle seat is now high backed. All seats now have high backs with headrests.
Bill "Newkirk"
In reality, that number was more like 280 cars. As you suggested, the vast majority of them were M-1s. M-1s traction motors are cooled by means of open air passing over it. On the M-3s, the traction motors are enclosed and cooled by air passed over them through ducts taking air from vents at mid-car. Sealed traction motors are les prone to having snow and corrosive salts sucked into them.
Your job is to design a service plan using all of the east river tunnels, that leaves all of the switches between the east river, queensboro plaza, and 36th st unused, while still having service on the Queens boulevard local and express, and the astoria line. (there should be 3 plans, midday, weekend, nights)
Maybe you meant to say Queensboro Mater Tower?
N/W - other than put-ins/gap trains, service is not affected at all. Switches are blocked and clamped in the Normal position north and south of Queensboro Plaza. Switches at Ditmars controlled from there.
Queens Blvd Exp - F/R via express to 63rd St Cut. R runs normal times, swapping north terminal with E. When R not running, E extended to Parsons/Archer. At Lexington/63, F goes to 6 Ave, R to B'way (switch controlled by City Hall). This may neccesitate moving Q terminal to 42 St and relaying trains.
Queens Blvd Local - E/V via local to 53rd St.
No big deal
Arti
Weekend: E via Queens local and 53rd; F as now; W as now; Q via Queens express, 63rd, and Broadway express; R to Queensboro Plaza; G cut back to Court Square.
Night: All as now, except G cut back to Court Square.
I think that works. Any better ideas?
weekends:
No (V) service.
(G) to court sq.
Nights:
(E)-express on Queens Boulevard
(F)-via 63rd st. local.
(G)-to court sq.
Equipment switch: (G)(R) run from CI Yard, (Q)<Q> run from Jamaica Yard (yes, Slants on the Crosstown and 4th Avenue Local lines and Brightliners on the Brighton!)
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
This is a total of four fantrirps and the flyer states that each one will cover different lines. In the event of equiptemnt problems Triplexes or Redbirds will be substituted.
Most of these cars have not run in service in over 25 years and it will be a chance to ride the some unique pieces of equiptment in their original color schemes.
Tickets are available from:
NYCT Subdivision C -MOD Trip
1311 Waters Place, Rm 221
The Bronx, New York 10461.
Each trip is $35.00 (U.S.).
So cancel all the wedding, funeral, christening and Bar-Mitzvah plans and send the wife and kiddies to the mother-in-law's for the weekend or better yet bring them with you.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
This is only three cars. Perhaps they will be supplemented by other R-1/9's now stored at Coney Island.
Hope to see you there.
Best Wishes, Larry Redbird
Although maybe we can get Grounded Shoe Beam to come play since he actually liked the R-10's even if 1575 is a fake.
Kingsbridge, eh? Well ... lived at 230th and Kingsbridge Avenue, Kingsbridge ROAD and Sedgewick, Bailey Avenue ... ah yes. My childhood dream come true was Arnine dooty ... and with 3-5 pounds of snowbrake shoe setup before YANKING it, you could make all the patented blue smoke ya wanted to. Heh.
I've heard many a tale of R-10 lovers getting into 1575 on the nose and forgetting it was an ME-23 ... until they got to say "hiya Mr homeball, BYE, Mr Homeball ... we're having CHOW for dinner." Hell, what's a SPAD among friends? :)
Arnines were WONDERFUL for charging up. Best of all, you could do a handle out without DUMPING them. Made for one QUICK relay. And yeah, they were definitely a different motoring experience from the kiddie cars. But if your ears weren't tuned to your valve, then you'd BEST watch the gauge. Unca Selkirk INVENTED the brick wall stop. After all, if you're not removing geese with a spatula from the storm door, then you're slowing down the got-damm railroad. Heh.
And yes, dynamic's wonderful when ya got it, but then you'd never learn how to operate a locomotive. Triple Valve uber alles, butt plug *OUT* ... rammmmmmmming speeeeeeeeeed! :)
-Stef
9605 #7
1962 #1
3731 E
4453 N
5326 A
Drivers' speed through stations is dependent on several factors:
1) Overall lateness of train
2) Attention span of T/O
3) Mood and/or style of T/O
4) Presence (or lack) of Supervision in areas near stations in question
And I'm sure there are more.
What I'd really like to know is what causes (A) and (C) trains to run so bizarrely? It is not uncommon for (C) trains to go express or to Lefferts Blvd, or (A) trains to run local, or (A) trains to have mixed signs, or for (A) and (C) trains to run on 6th Ave, or for (B) and (D) trains to run on 8th Ave, or all of the above at once.
4042 A local
3937 C express
No, it wasn't laid up, it was waiting to get into Euclid. There was no incident, but trains were backed up for some strange reason.
On another note, one time I was on a (C) that had just pulled out and some kids pulled the emergency brake so they could fight. The police came in and arrested three people. Unfortunately for the train, it had stopped on the switch, so they couldn't open the door. The dispatcher tried to hold the (A) train, but the conductor had deserted us (is he really allowed to do that?). The cops opened one door and we scrambled to get out but it closed and I couldn't fit (and again, the conductor wasn't controlling it, so he couldn't open back up). After about 15 minutes, another (C) came in on the express track and laid up, they let us off and we got on, and then the one we were on left! But at least our train went express, passing it at Van Siclen. Broadway Junction was a zoo, because they both came in at once and the "express" now became a local and the "local" was following. They simply subtracted a train and ran the one in front as if it were the next train, and the train behind that just followed close behind (again, can they do that?). Some very strange things happen on the Fulton Street Line...
It happens reasonably often. First, like Mark mentions there's an
overlap of the services. The difference between a local and express from Hoyt to Euclid is 5 minutes -- exactly the definition of being late. The difference between a local and express between 96 and Chambers is 7 -- now no matter what, the train is late and that's not counting the door holding and whatever else may go on. While this isn't an issue if on a long headway, if a 1 train is running 5 or 6 minutes late during the day, its possible that the dispatcher doesn't see the cost worth it.
Also remember that Hoyt and Euclid have the ability to visually identify a train, so that may be a factor as well.
And finally, it could possibly be an agreement between superintendants. This is the case when E trains go to Euclid. There is a Memorandum posted in the WTC Dispatcher's office that states:
- When there is a significant delay of E train service to Jamaica, C trains will be rerouted to Jamaica Center.
- When there is a significant delay of C train service to Brooklyn, E trains will be rerouted to Euclid Ave.
- When there is a significant delay of C train service to 168 Street, E trains will be rerouted to 168 Street.
I havent seen the Fulton A/C local/express swap in a while. I've never seen a C run to Lefferts. As for the 6th av/8th av re-routing, that's due to delays.
Story here.
In brief, Louis R. Anemone, "the top security official at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority says that he has uncovered evidence of significant corruption within the agency and that agency officials have severely impeded his investigation."
Two Broadaway was a disaster, and I don't know who managed it. Other than that, well, we'll just have to see.
Two people in a row find the same problems and the higher ups say nothing's wrong? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
And, like any other govt. organization, it needs to be periodically fumigated. It's unfortunate.
Last year, 12 out of 13 plumbing inspectors in the City of Philadelphia were fire and prosecuted for corruption. They were caught on tape with hidden cameras and microphones in their Crown Victorias, asking for bribes.
And so it goes...
The other one must have bribed the police ;-)
One of its more expensive forms is not considering inexpensive alternate solutions that do not provide for kickbacks.
There is no such thing. Any time money exchanges hands, some form of corruption is possible.
In some ways, the reluctance to engage in large projects can itself be both a consequence and source of corruption.
They may not have as much detail, but the fact the story is also in Sunday's News as well as the Times shows that this dispute has been fairly common knowledge in the press for at least the last few days.
Broadway express service:
The Q train was a peak direction express service that had many of it's runs cancelled (according to a conductor on this page who worked those runs). It was local on brighton. The N ran express, but only in peak direction towards brooklyn. So in the mornings, there was no southbound express service, and no northbound exp service in the PM.
West End Service:
The B train served the West End line, but it had another strange service plan. There were actually two different B trains, a (B) running to 57th/6th all times except nights, and a B train to 168th rush hours only. Weird part is that the 57th B train ran local on 6th av all times, except southbound in the PM, and the other B train ran express. Thus, in the AM, you had both a B local and a B express in both directions, and In the PM, northbound you had the same thing.
Brighton Local Service:
The Q stated above was a local on brighton, but with crappy service like that, who would ride it? Thus the M provided local service, short trains, low headways and all. Would anyone here propose that we should return to this?
The point here is that the previous service plans are totally irrelevant. What was implemented before has no bearing on what should happen in 2004.
Absolutely true. In addition, previous plans can't be implemented (even if the MTA wanted to make zero changes) because nothing can terminate at Queensbridge or 57th/6th any more.
OK, technically I should have said Queensbridge won't, under any circumstances except a GO, be a terminal, not can't.
The 1986 plan was a quick throw together than DOT terminated when the bridge began to crack. What is perhaps more interesting is the service plan in 1969, after Chrystie opened.
Brighton Local--the QB via bridge then, the Q, same now.
Brighton Exp -- the D then, the B now. Note that the B went to 168th, and the C went on the Concourse, so you didn't have the confusion issues you would now, which is why the switch.
West End -- the B to 57th Street and 6th Avenue, or to 168th Street. The former is no longer possible, the latter isn't done because of the service swap with the C.
Sea Beach -- the N terminated at 57th with the QB, it didn't run through. As proposed the N would run though with the two locals, so you'd still have two services to Astoria (ghost of Peter Vallone).
BMT Broadway Local -- you had the RR to Astoria and the EE from Forest Hills to Whitehall. Same today, but the Queens Termials are swaped and the EE is called the W.
Nassau Loop From Brooklyn: it was the QJ on the Brighton. It will be the M on the West End.
So what has changed?
In Upper Manhattan and the Bronx, the B and C switched terminals many years ago.
In Queens, you get more service to Broadway and more service to Queens Boulevard -- in addition to the added V and having the 6th Avenue train to 57th Street run through, one of the Broadway expresses will continue to Astoria, putting two services on that line.
In Brooklyn, weekday express service via bridge will be virtually identical, if one ignores the letters on the train.
On weekends, however, there will be two services via bridge on Broadway rather than one, and one via bridge on 6th Avenue rather than two. The Brighton absorbs the switch, and will be Broadway rather than 6th Avenue. Why? So there will be two Broadway locals -- and more frequent service -- rather than one, with the N switching to the local track. I proposed as much, but with the N via tunnel nights and weekends, but OP is listening to Fred.
Finally, the West End is proposed to get the Nassau Loop Service while the Brighton did in 1969, but you still had only one Broadway and one Nassau service via tunnel on weekdays, and just the R via tunnel on weekends, in 1969.
Not sure about that one. As some of you may remember, I proposed running the Z through on the Brighton during rush hours to add trains.
Later, I suggested building a branch off east of DeKalb and a terminal in the LIRR area of Atlantic Terminal, and running J/Z services through to terminate there rather than at Atlantic, to bring LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan. Heck, just for simplicity sake, you could have the J/Z and M terminate at Atlantic Terminal to pick up LIRR riders, and add some Ds and Qs to pick up the slack on the Brighton and West End.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I just talked to a friend who lives in Astoria. It's not Vallone's doing. Traffic has really increased immenesely as more an more yuppies who work in Manhattan move to Astoria. He says the W and N (14 tph according to current schedules) are both really packed now in the rush hour.
Why the plan calls for W and N to Astoria in non-rush hours I don't understand. Maybe the W goes to Astoria in non-rush hours because the crews are available as a result of service needed during the rush.
"Not sure about that one. As some of you may remember, I proposed running the Z through on the Brighton during rush hours to add trains."
Doesn't that upset the J/Z skip/stop service, though, unless some other partner to the J is started up? Could skip/stop work where the terminals are not held commonly between routes?
Your comments cause me to again wonder about the flexibility the Brighton Line currently affords. Clearly under the new proposal, things are more flexible than they were for Brighton riders than for at least a score, it seems, insofar as they are given the options of a Broadway or 6th Avenue service; still though, both go via the Manhattan Bridge. Thus, I read this proposal as arguing for maximum flexibility on the Brighton line, something which the Broadway/6th Avenue options suggest, and adding a tunnel option would be taking things to their logical end. Which end is more logical, and why, though?
In another post of mine, I suggested, maybe incredibly, that the Broadway service on the Brighton, the Q, it ought to go Broadway Local/Montague Street Tunnel/Brighton Local, not Broadway Express/Manhattan Bridge South/Brighton Local. What are the problems with such an approach, compared to your own Z proposal?
It's very simple. 75% of all riders during rush hour want to go to midtown Manhattan. Some want to go to lower Manhattan, but the M and R service are more than sufficient to serve them. No point having another service.
If the Q replaces the R instead of supplementing it, that just adds switching delays at Dekalb. It's easier to send the R to the Montague tunnel than any Brighton train. Take a look at the Brooklyn Heights track map on this site.
Agreed. May it also be said that Downtown is close to Brooklyn, whereas Midtown is far away. So the people who really need the fastest and easiest ride -- express, no changes -- are those going to Midtown. As for R riders to Midtown, if the timing is right they can change to/from the Sea Beach at 59th Street.
For those coming home from Downtown, the spilt Broadway/Nassau service through the Montigue means that either line you choose, you might have a ten minute wait. Still, you need service on both lines for those who cannot or do not want to make the walk between them.
I certainly hope that they run the R at an evenly spaced 8 tph, so that the wait should never be more than 7.5 minutes. Right now, of course, you have the R and N to choose from.
(Still, you need service on both lines for those who cannot or do not want to make the walk between them.)
From Broad to Trinity and Rector is an unpleasant walk in bad weather. Very narrow sidewalks, made even narrower with barricades, and 2 thoroughfares that are very hard to cross with long waits and reckless drivers who run red lights.
The yellow D and Q ran skip-stop service in 1986 and 87 on the Brighton local tracks while the major rehablitation work was going on. D's terminated at Coney, Q's at Brighton Beach. But those two sations aren't too far from each other, so I don't think it upset the skip-stop service very much. Running the Z onto BMT South without the J would because Brighton Beach and Broad Street are a long way off from each other.
Those trains would merely get in the way. The existing M service is lightly used, and if both M and Z trains ran to brighton, it's quite likely that we would have empty Z and M trains, with the Z trains blocking Q trains at Prospect Park, and then R trains at DeKalb.
Is it a good idea? I don't know. One advantage is that the guess-the-platform game at 57/7 will be history. One disadvantage is that, of the four Broadway services, three would stop at 60/Lex, and it seems somewhat silly to send the fourth to 63/Lex. The V would become more popular in Queens but at the same time the R would become less popular.
Maybe we should look at the last time Broadway was properly served to see what's left over to give to 6th Avenue ;-)
1966 - everything except the (TT) West End Local (6am-6:30pm) went to Broadway
So only one part time service needs not to go to Broadway, so call it a (B) train, running Local on 6th Avenue so that the (D) train can terminate at 34th St.
Broadway can have the (N)(Q)(QB)(QT)(RR) and (T) trains, or if double letters cannot return the (N)(Q)(X)(Y)(R) and (T) trains!
Perhaps historical approaches don't work...
Of course they don't. Historically speaking, at the time those trains were running, people eagerly anticpated a Second Avenue Subway, and a Myrtle Avenue subway connection. Here we are thirty-something years later, and still we are waiting. Besides, if you take the letters T, X, and Y, what's left for the Second Avenue Subway (if it is ever built)?
The (P) express and the (PP) local!
nuff said!
wayne
Who makes the announcements heard in the lower level for the LIRR? I have heard several for both announcement lists and made notice of the regulars (2 for each) but never knew where or who makes them for 8 years.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Budget victims?
www.forgotten-ny.com
wayne
News came yesterday in an official manner that the Delaware & Hudson (now CPRail) is going to ABANDON the line. Anyone with humongo bucks and an interest in a nine mile long place where trains can run fast, this is the last chance ...
From the Friday Times Union, this legal notice ...
NOTICE
Delaware and Hudson Railway Company, Inc., (d/b/a Canadian Pacific
Railway) gives notice that on or about April 15, 2003, it intends to
file with the Surface Transportation Board, Washington, DC 20423, a
Notice of Exemption under 49 U.S.C. 10505 from the prior approval
requirements of 49 U.S.C. 10903, et seq., permitting the abandonment
of a 9.14 +/- mile line of railroad between milepost 1.8 +/- (in
Albany) and milepost 10.94 +/- (in Voorheesville) which traverses
through United States Postal Service Zip Codes 12202, 12077, 12054,
and 12186, in Albany County, New York. The proceeding will be
docketed as No. AB-156 (Sub No. 23X).
The Board's Section of Environmental Analysis (SEA) will generally
prepare an Environmental Assessment (EA), which will normally be
available 60 days after the filing of the Notice of Exemption.
Comments on environmental and energy matters should be filed no later
than 30 days after the EA becomes available to the public and will be
addressed in a Board decision. Interested persons may obtain a copy
of the EA or make inquiries regarding environmental matters by
writing to the SEA, Surface Transportation Board, 1925 K Street NW,
Washington, DC, 20423-0001, or by calling SEA at 202-565-1674.
Appropriate offers of financial assistance to continue rail service
can be filed with the Board. Requests for environmental conditions,
public use conditions, or rail banking/trails use also can be filed
with the Board. An original and 10 copies of any pleading that raises
matters other than environmental issues (such as trails use, public
use, and offers of financial assistance) must be filed directly with
the Board's Office of the Secretary, 1925 K Street NW, Washington, DC
@0423-0001 [See 49 CFR 1104.1(a) and 1104.3(a)], and one copy must be
served on applicants' representative [See 49 CFR 1104.12(a)].
Questions regarding offers of financial assistance, public use or
trails use may be directed to the Board's Office of Public Services
at 202-927-7597. Copies of any comments or requests for conditions
should be served on the applicant's representative, Diane P. Gerth at
Leonard, Street and Deinard, 150 South Fifth Street, Suite 2300,
Minneapolis, MN 55402, 612-335-1500.
Delaware & Hudson Railway
Company, Inc.
(d/b/a Canadian Pacific Railway)
Minneapolis, Minnesota
TU-1t March 28 (8900)
Anyone wanna help me err, borrow a slant from CIYD? And I'm gonna need someone to handcrank switches so we can get it there.
As far as cranking them, I owe you MANY for the incorrect reply there - and yeah, did those as well as the monkey climb through the storm door to do it. You gotta DEAL, bro ... get me the crew keys and the handles, create a diversion and I'll have that puppy on a flatbed before you can say "car inspector." :)
Now I gotta go back and post that reply to the RIGHT thread. Sorry!
You cranked switches in what position in those days? Its a duty of a TW/O now and even so we really don't see the opportunity as Control would rather not take the chance.
Anyway, maybe not before I can say "car inspector" because to get them tomorrow I'll probably have to sneak around like 007 through the CIYD shops to find some.
Back when *I* worked for the TA, Qull had died - forget the name of the Irishman who replaced Quill and lingered on with TWU for years after my demise - but the general attitude was "let's get this beech on the road" and it wasn't uncommon for your WORTHLESS radio to squawk, "headed over to 26? Could you set your lineup before you climb up?" and you just did it so you could get out of there and not get yelled at by the TMO on the other end of the line while waiting for an "assistant" to come out and zip up your pants FOR you.
When MTA came into existence, they inherited WRECKAGE and it took nearly ten years (75 or so) before the wiglets came out of their study groups and customer focus groups to realize, "oh chit! We gotta run a RAILROAD" ... so it literally was "every TWU member for themselves" and we tended to watch out FOR, and TRUST one another to just get through the day. But yeah, if it helped me get my put-in IN on time, I'd toss my own ... so did others. And the union pretty much looked the other way UNLESS they didn't LIKE you. I was one of the latter.
Then there's Branford. No two hand-throws the same. What a *DELIGHT!!!* Suck up to Unca Sparky and join, and you can get some on you too! :)
And GEEZ ... it's all a matter of having the vest ya know. Heh. Lemme mark mine up as "OFFISHUL TRANS-SIT PHOTOG" and *I* will create the diversion. You know how to throw breakers and top charge, right? Heh.
After pretending to light a victory cigar my friend was slapped back to reality when the announcement came that the R would be going over the bridge, bypassing Court. Resigning himself to some stair climbing my friend got out at Pacific and caught a 4 or 5 to Boro Hall.
So is weekend service perpetually to be fragmented, with 'premier' through service only during the week and a variety of shuttles on the weekend? How about separate pay tiers for this? just a thought.
www.forgotten-ny.com
wayne
John
Any reason why they can't?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The MTA can't have new cars on either of 'em. The PW or the IRT 7 because they run in Flushing! Never. :P
www.forgotten-ny.com
Of course, I'm just kidding. The MTA has done a lot for Flushing. I mean, the IRT 7 terminal is just gorgeous, though I'm guessing the MTA didn't have the foresight for a western extension because of that entrance at the west end of the station. Is is ADA accessible though...
I'd imagine something would be done for the LIRR station there. Ironically, I found about its poor condition from YOUR 'Jeckyll and Hyde' type article on your website, Kevin! Very well done, I might add! ;)
Of course there is. There always is: Build around. I don't know what that far north in Queens would warrant such an extension, but if it was absolutely neccessarry, they could probably run two tracks on te outside on the approach to Main Street, sink to a lower level, and come back together after passing the station. The platform would probably have to be placed just to the east of the fare control area, so as not to disturb the existing platforms (or the street, for that matter). But, again, I don't know what would warrant such an extension (heck, what do I know? I'm only 15). If they're going to extend something it should be the Archer Av Line to the 165th Street Terminal.
As for yet another IRT Flushing extension, there were pushings for the city to aquire the now non-existant LIRR Whiteston branch! Can you imagine the 7 winding though Whitestone. Hehehe... If anything, that;s not the end of it. Countless other ideas have resurrected from extending the 7 to the Javits Center (something the MTA and Bloomy will most likely do in light of the Olympics), to New Jersey with help from the Port Authority, running it along the High Line...it goes on!
The better question is why did they put the fair control at track level? When the station was designed, it was designed as a through station, not a terminal. There was nothing at the track level but the tracks and platforms. Fare control was at the mezzanine level above the tracks with stairways leading down to the platforms (originally BMT was on one side and IRT on the other, with a "<--next train-->" sign pointing to the appropriate stairway). The only thing necessary to extend the line was to start digging at the east end of the station.
Tom
That's not trhe source of the problem. The problem is the elevator shaft and associated machinery in the street.
Once that is in place, and there are no plans to reconfigure the whole line (ie stack the tracks one on top of the other), you might as well accept the station's being a terminal and use all the space you have. Fare control at track level is much easier on passengers than a mezzanine (one less escalator or stairway to negotiate, and one less elevator for a wheelchair to ride).
Stephen Baumann wants us to think that the only issue was federal oversight. It was not - it was local politics involving a basically incompetent and antitransit city councilwoman (but that was not the only problem); the graft aspect, which Stephen is right about, then made that problem much worse.
It is extremely shortsighted to cut off simple extension of the line to permit the upgrading of the station to ADA compliance. The subway stations in downtown Los Angeles have both sidewalk accessible elevators, and elevators taking a few feet of ground floor space in buildings (dedicated entrance from the street). In both cases they are hydraulic elevators with all machinery below the shaft. The need to take two rather than one elevator is trivial, and not a good reason to block eastward expansion of the subway line.
Tom
However, as I've noted before, one could argue that, with the 7 being as packed as it is, why extend it eastbound if all you're going to do is add riders on roofracks?
I would not have done what they did. But there's no point in crying about it anymore.
And, while the 7 is crowded, it's hardly the most crowded line in the system -- at least according to the 1996 statistics, the mainline IRT routes, local and express, are even more crowded.
What you're saying is quite true.
However, subway line extensions generate new ridership over and above what the buses bring in. And when the bus ride gets shorter, its subway-bound ridership increases, so even more people get on.
The rationale for extending the Flushing Line eastward is to reduce operating costs. The TA's opeating cost per passenger mile is $0.79 for buses vs. only $0.27 for subways. Main St. is the TA's largest mixed mode station. Almost all the bus routes run east and then branch north or south. Extending the line eastward would make running the bus routes to Main St unnecessary. Eliminating the unnecessary bus mileage would reduce the TA's operating costs, as well as provide a faster commute to Eastern Queens residents.
Two-fare zones were abolished five years ago. Prior to that eliminating two-fare zones meant reducing revenue as well as reducing operating costs. That's no longer the case. Eliminating mixed mode trips will only reduce costs - provided bus use is heavy enough to fill the subway cars. Solution, start with the heaviest use mixed-mode stations for the biggest bang for the buck.
N.B. an even stronger argument can be made for extending the Hillside Avenue line eastward. The combined mixed mode use for 179th St and Jamaica Center is greater than Main St.
Your advocacy is excellent and I agree with all of your observations. However, I should point out that plenty of buses come from east, north and south as well, including Nassau buses and the Q12 using Northern Blvd. (I used to ride that). So making those trips shorter will also encourage ridership.
"Two-fare zones were abolished five years ago. Prior to that eliminating two-fare zones meant reducing revenue as well as reducing operating costs. That's no longer the case. Eliminating mixed mode trips will only reduce costs - provided bus use is heavy enough to fill the subway cars. Solution, start with the heaviest use mixed-mode stations for the biggest bang for the buck."
Agreed!
"N.B. an even stronger argument can be made for extending the Hillside Avenue line eastward. The combined mixed mode use for 179th St and Jamaica Center is greater than Main St."
You have no doubt seen my posts advocating for extension of the Hillside Av line.
I'm out here in Kansas City, but have enough credibility with MTA community relations so they listen - but this would need strong political support in Queens and the rest of the city.
So I challenge you: Will you write to MTA and elected officials tpo advocate for this (do you live in NYC?) If you do, I'll back you up.
With the MTA takeover of the private's it may make a better economic case to extend certain bus lines.
Also keep in mind the MTA may not be able to cut bus lines even if they extend the trains closer to the people. The local politico's may not allow it.
Extending the subways into SI via the new freight tunnel will have the same effect of moving people from express buses to feeder buses to subway to reduce costs.
If the MTA had the proper people in charge of it's planning and operations groups with a clear directive to run a more effecient operation costs could be significantly reduced systemwide while improving rider comfort.
Unfortunitly the current advocacy groups are interested in maintaining the socialistic nature of the MTA. Get more money from the city and state, don't worry about operational expense.
Maybe I'm not getting something, but it looks from the Queens Bus Map that the bus routes running East branch out from more than one axis (from North to South: Parsons Blvd, Northern Blvd, 46th Ave, Kissena Blvd). Which of these are you suggesting would be most use?
an even stronger argument can be made for extending the Hillside Avenue line eastward.
Agreed - you could get rid of a lot of bus mileage with an extended Hillside Ave line.
The 12, 13, N20 and N21 would stop at the Bell Blvd terminal.
The 14 and 15 would terminate at the new 150th St station.
The 16 would terminate at the Francis Lewis Blvd station.
The section of the 17 from Flushing to Utopia Pky would be eliminated. The 17 would proceed from the Utopia Pky station along Utopia to the LIE and pick up the 17's route to Jamaica
The 20A/B, 34 and 44 routes would remain unchanged.
The 26 and 27 would terminate at the Utopia Pky station.
The 28 would terminate at the Bell Blvd terminal.
The 48 and 66 would terminate at the Willets Pt Blvd station.
The 58 would remain unchanged.
There would have to be an additional service from Main St to Bell Blvd that would service the Bayside Ave, 29th Ave and 32nd Ave corridor.
This is only a first pass. However, a lot of bus mileage is eliminated in favor if a more direct subway connection.
Well, they did not build the southeast Queens subway; they did kept all the bus routes terminating in Jamaica. It's amazing that the existing commercial district was not able to survive with so much support. :-)
It was the building of additional shopping areas, particularly around Rego Park and Elmhurst in the late 1950's and early 1960's that did in Jamaica. It was on arificial respiration, when that 1971 report came out.
BTW, Coverdale and Colpitts also called for the construction of a bus terminal by Parsons/Archer (on the site now used for the Family Court) until the Southeast Queens line was built. They obviously had the feeling that there would be some kind on a delay.
I thought the Family Court is located in the building that was formerly the Queensborough Central Library (on Parsons between Hillside and Jamaica Aves).
If I recall correctly, the Board of Estimate was planning to extend the 7 line in the way you described. In fact, am I wrong in remembering that the Astoria Line would have been extended, as well, to join it, or interchange with it?
Whether or not anyone at the MTA would have the courage to prepose such a plan without any oveerwelming community support.
That is why the whole tooken booth closing plan needs to be applauded. The MTA for once preposed something that would increase the effeciency and remove redunacy in the system. In the long run it bennifits the riding public.
Don't be surprised that such a subway extension would be apposed if the local politico's here that bus routes would be changes. It is hard for the MTA to give it's economic case for the extention even if it has a good one.
The usual reward for coming up with such a deficient plan should be a pink slip instead of a pension.
However, the adoption of such plans, after the public pointed out their shortcomings casts doubt on the TA's ability. Such doubt means that the public should look very critically at all subsequent TA proposals. I've been doing this for quite some time because the Main St renovation is not the TA's first blunder.
CBTC does not provide any more capacity. It does provide big startup costs.
The biggest capacity problem I see on the L line is the insane way they turn trains at 8th Ave. On a regular basis, the following happens:
1. A train comes into 6th Ave heading westbound. It waits there a few minutes.
2. A train finally leaves 8th Ave. In about 30 seconds it clears the switch.
3. After the eastbound train clears the switch, the signal at 6th Ave remains red for another 30 seconds (yes, I've timed it).
4. Finally, the signal turns green, and the westbound train proceeds.
This could all be fixed without CBTC.
On Queens Blvd, on the other hand, I certainly hope that CBTC can increase capacity from 30 to 40 tph while still adhering to the MTA's legalistic rules.
CBTC will do nothing of the kind. They currently operate 15 tph during rush hour on the 14th St line. They operated 24 tph during rush hour at some time in the past with the exact same signal system.
I'd be curious to see the exact wording of the TA's statement.
One reason you (or anybody else) couldn't say how successful CBTC would be on the Canarsie Line s that nobody within the TA has defined any performance based metrics for success. Moreover, they have not included any performance based metrics in the contract.
Thats is absolutly outragious. How can you embark on a project without performance metrics. Base performance metrics could have been put together based on the experience on the paris metro or other similar installations here in the states
And subway cars which make your comparison patently invalid.
CBTC is a tool. It can be used properly, or not. Its increased flexibility over fixed block systems can be a tremendous asset.
Instead of whining and moaning about the "good old days," and posting nonsense when you're clearly capable of better, why not look at CBTC and outline its pluses and minuses, and how it can, should, and should not be used?
As an example, the Queens Library needed desperately to upgrade and expand their Flushing branch. According to their plan, the library would be moved someplace else. The Library wanted to rebuild where they were. Accordingly, the Councilwoman and her group fought the Library, offering as an alternative that if they wanted to stay where they were, they should turn their auditorium into additional shelf space (for want of another term).
Needless to say, the Queens Library wouldn't go along, and were backed up by the other area elected officials, as well as the Borough President. They build a wonderful new building on the original site, and no one is complaining now.
Now that you have agreed that the MTA's plans must be viewed with a very critical eye, when are you going to start doing your part?
it is not exclusively MTA's blunder. MTA is also reacting to local politicians,
I would have more sympathy for that view, if there were any evidence that the TA came up with intelligent plans.
I have had three suggestions accepted and adopted by MTA over the past few years.
When are you going to start doing your part?
Just like the straphangers campaign we can come up with our own line of subtalk/bustalk clothing. We can finally pay Dave back for all the excellant work he has done over the years with the website.
Bear in mind, though, that the Straphangers Campaign worked very, very hard to get to where it is. Some of it may seem like BS to you, but Gene Russianoff has done a hell of a lot over the last 20 years to help get the subways from trash heap to serious transit, and riders owe him and his partners a debt. His accomplishments and political savvy are top-notch. I may not agree with everything he says or does, but he has a lot of integrity and we would be a lot worse off without him.
Just like the straphangers campaign we can come up with our own line of subtalk/bustalk clothing. We can finally pay Dave back for all the excellant work he has done over the years with the website.
Plus I can work a job I truely love
Unless there is an easement granted for the elevator. In which case there would be a one time condemnation award base upon the amount of square footage being taken.
Tom
Which the building owner was willing to grant without condemnation.
Eminent domain works anywhere. It may not have been necessary in Flushing.
Tom
Maybe she should be awarded a Port Washington Bra for stupidity! (Or would the three Willy B "terrorists" beat her to it?)
Beyond that, where could you install anything at the corner of Main Street and Roosevelt Avenue? Any property acquisition, given real estate values, would have made the whole thing cost-prohibitive.
Similarly, the end of the platform was the only place to install escalators (a huge priority for the local elected officials). Putting them on the platforms would have meant blocking them as well.
It has been many years since I have seen the Main Street Station, but from my memory of the station, there would have been no problem with putting elevators from the mezzanine to the platforms at the end of the platforms. If anything, the problem on the platforms was getting around the staircases. As far as getting from the street to the mezzanine, I seem to remember six stairways. One of those stairways could have been converted to an elevator.
Tom
They need not be. The ones in use in L.A. and San Francisco would fit nicely in that opening.
Tom
There still should be plenty of room in a stairwell to hold an elevator that large. The stairwells are at least 6-7' wide and 10' long. That is plenty of room for an elevator.
Tom
The entire section from 104th to Main St was designed and built as a single entity. Construction started at 104th and proceeded to Main St. Shuttle service was provided as the new stations were built.
It does not follow that they would slap such a buffer on this line, since there is much of Queens left in any given direction from there
The principal reason that the Main St station is underground was to provide eastward expansion. Ground elevation increases along Roosevelt Ave eastward from Main St. An through elevated would have had a lot of problems negotiating such a climb. The LIRR goes from a high elevated station at Main St to a cut at Union St (1 block east). The original LIRR ROW was at street level at Main St and used a tunnel to go east.
The chief opposition at that time preventing further eastward expansion was the LIRR. The LIRR was making money on its Port Washington and Whitestone services. It did not want subway competition.
Roosevelt was narrower before the subway came. The existing buildings on the south side of Roosevelt were knocked down as part of the subway construction and widening of Roosevelt Ave.
If they had been able to build right through, maybe the platforms could have been wider
The station width extends onto the sidewalk. You can verify this by noticing the air vents ceiling of the outer tracks at track level and locating the air grates at street level. It's difficult to imagine the station being substantially wider without going into private property.
It also went underground because the people in Flushing in the 1910s were rabidly against elevated lines.
The LIRR provided transportation from Flushing to Manhattan in the 1910's. The LIRR invested heavily in electrifying the railroad and removing all the grade crossings in 1910-1912. The service was profitable. The LIRR's parent, the PRR, was the largest corporation in the US at that time. The Roosevelt line avoided the LIRR and went through basically lightly populated areas. There would have been no Dual Contract lines in Queens, if the LIRR objected.
The line was a big success. Jackson Heights was the fastest growing community in the US during the early 1920's. The success spurred the call for extending the line eastward. Strenuous opposition came from the LIRR.
They could have built an elevated station that ended at Main St intersection. However, the El's eastward extension would have been blocked by the elevation climb between Main and Union Streets. Building and underground station at Main St permitted eastward expansion.
The daily paper based in Flushing in 1929 essentially said to the people in the area about the plan of that era: "We had the chance to do this in 1913. Let's not make the same mistake again".
However, construction is not a term to be thought of separately when it comes to the IRT Flushing. Let's see what we have here... the interlocking east of 69/Fisk will be dismantled and new interlockings will be installed at both ends of 74/Broadway. We also have the major reconstruction at Corona. I remember Train Dude (was it really him?) saying that new yard leads will be installed, somewhere's off from the west end of the Willets Point station, you konw, the bridge structure atop the Van Wyck.
I'd imagine it would be pretty extensive: widening the current track configuration and installing the new tracks. Ooh, I smell GO's!
You've gat a platform specific compass? :-)
Tom
In order to make 74th Street a virtual express station?
It looks like very ambitious work. Lots of GO's indeed.
The MTA placed the ADA elevators in the street as opposed to putting them inside a department store, which would have cost at least $3 million more.
It wasn't really a NIMBY issue - east of there live plenty of people who would love subway service (so long as the line remained underground. Part of the problem is City Councilwoman Julia Harrison, who did whatever she could to limit transit development. She helped ensure that, while Main Street itself was renovated and ADA enhanced, that no further extension would be done.
There is also the issue of just how you're supposed to put more people on a line that already starts at the busiest subway station in the system and is packed like sardines in the morning rush. A reasonable case could be made that the line can't handle more people.
The best way to increase capacity in Queens is a new line into Flushing from elsewhere.
Come on - LIRR needs SOME support ;-)
I suppose it doesn't matter. The subjects get hard to see anyway if the threads gets big enough.
Besides, don't you wonder whether or not the M-7 makes it there?
Never mind where they are - look at the size of them...
LOL! They gotta be pretty BIG for the M-7's to make it into that Port Washington bra!
(maybe I'm jealous of the M-7's....)
I mean, for god's sake, look at how horrible some of the stations are there! With peeling paint, exposed pipes and the like. Of course, look toward the LI and you will see the Jeckyll-Hyde changes all around, thanks to Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY. The MTA really likes to bullshit us sometimes, don't they?
In compensation, of course, PW riders don't have to deal with the all-too-common delays through Jamaica.
A trivial complaint; the M7's will get there soon enough.
"I mean, for god's sake, look at how horrible some of the stations are there! With peeling paint, exposed pipes and the like."
The only really bad stations are Murray Hill and Broadway, and Broadway is getting a makeover. Woodside, Auburndale (renovation should be close to completion), Bayside are in excellent shape, and stations beyond generally look OK.
Flushing-Main Street could use a renovation, and there is space in a parking lot that could be appropriated for an ADA elevator on one side of it. Don't know about the other side. The station's squeezed into where it is.
Murray Hill is a disaster, and would need a serious (at least $15-20 million) renovation to lengthen the platforms, paint it, illuminate it better, and make it ADA compliant, whereas other stations were rebuilt for $5 million or less.
The Port Washington Line is greater than 90% ADA compliant.
Renovation money should be spent elsewhere first. Fix Queens Village and Hollis, for example.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The 2 track line would run along Hillside, then veer on 164th, then onto Horace Harding and toward Queens! Finally it would swerve its way on to Northern where it head to the line where the G/R/V run. Of course, the subway line wouldn't run under these streets exact, but tunneling under shorter possible paths would be taken. I would call the route... I dunno 'Y.'
Of course, this is just a plan I came up with out of nowhere... I'm sure it has flaws like any other. Aside costs, practibility issues and the sort.... This is nothing more but a ROUGH, ROUGH draft.
Cost? Let's be realistic: Adding two or three modern ADA stations may cost $100 million to $150 million (maybe you want to add lots of bus bays to the new terminal, currently not a feature at 179 St.), then there's the cost of putting in the line itself. I'd say you'd need at least $50-75 million to move utilities and dig the tunnel sections in between the stations (based on what East Side Access contracts are saying for similar lengths of work), and the rest of the finishing, track, signal work would bring your total cost at least $600-$750 million for a two mile extension. You would not have to do the work only at odd hours or on the weekends, which is part of what inflated the 63rd Street Connector line's cost. For another $200 million, you could even keep a four-track configuration, though you could also do what SEPTA did on the Broad Street Line: narrow the line to 2 tracks only past 179 Street, as a means of reducing the cost.
But you'd have a lot of political organizing to do.
How's this for an idea. Given that the existing 42nd St Line runs under 42nd then 41st St, create a new 2 track tunnel consistently 1 block North with Island platform stations at GCT, 5th Av and Times Sq, extended along with the current 42nd St line to form a two track loop at Javits Center (with an intermediate stop at 9th Avenue) - the current tunnels would then become both North(East)bound and the new ones South(West)bound.
The inner two of the four resulting tracks under the East River would serve Vernon-Jackson etc. The outer two would run along the LIE (Stops: Greenpoint Av, Grand Av, 80th St, Woodhaven Blvd, 108th St) then curving along the Eastern side of Flushing Meadows Park then turning East to Flushing Main Street.
How's that for a super-express fantasy line?
A lot of the are, true.
See my response regarding extension of the Hillside Avenue Line.
Though she's out of office, Julia seems to also want to scotch whatver new Flushing development there is, like cleaning up the River Flushing and creating a San Antonio style riverwalk. Believe it or not that's one of the projects being floated.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Cost was never a concern of the TA. The TA bore the entire cost of the project, even though it would have been eligible for 80% UMTA funding. The TA refused federal funding because they did not want to have the project subject to federal review and oversight. Federal funding would have meant $24 million for the $30 million project.
The contractor the TA chose had a record of shoddy construction and cost overruns. The consultant hired to "draw up the plans" and estimate the costs was Indiana based.
I would not be surprised if today's article regarding MTA corruption with contractors would apply in this case, considering the TA's refusal to use $24 million in federal money. However, the Queens DA is not Robert Morganthau but a political hack.
The best way to increase capacity in Queens is a new line into Flushing from elsewhere.
They used to operate 28% more rush hour trains trains on the Flushing Line. To repeat something you dismissed from an earlier post: the inability to gain kickbacks discourages using inexpensive solutions.
How?
That demonstrates, if true (I've nothing contrary to say, myself), that headways were lower (less than 2 minutes, actually), but it does not, with due respect, answer HOW this was achieved, which is what I'd really like to know.
Stephen likes to think that incompetence and corruption are solely responsible for headways on the subway being what they are (and he is the sole competent arbiter of what this means), and it's useless to argue with him about it.
I think the CBTC experiment on the L will result in some interesting data. It is not the only way to address the issue, but it is one possible way.
There also appears to be a fallacy in thinking that BIE is the fastest way to to come to a stop; I thought the report dismissed out of hand that full service braking was preferable in many instances, although of course, sleeping T/O's wouldn't be able to do that. Of course, if as you say, safety margins are based on BIE effectiveness, that hardly helps. Still, it makes me wonder why many people on these boards commonly say when there's a passenger on the tracks for whatever reason that the brakes should be applied emergency and not full service all of the time. I find that puzzling, given that the application may well be known not to work, whereas a full service application would have a chance of success. But I digress.
"Today's trains are heavier and need a greater distance; hence headways must be a bit longer or operating speeds a bit lower."
I thought they went for both options: longer headways and making motors less efficient, particularly on rolling stock that could really take off.
"Today's trains are heavier and need a greater distance; hence headways must be a bit longer or operating speeds a bit lower."
"I thought they went for both options: longer headways and making motors less efficient, particularly on rolling stock that could really take off."
The second part of your sentence does not make sense - but I think I know what you're getting at.
Interesting note: The R142's "B" car has only two motors per car, not four, resulting in a somewhat lower power-to-weight ratio overall for the train. However, it is the R62 (or R62A) which is replacing Redbirds on the Flushing line.
They were using the same equipment (R33S/R36WF) from 1964 to 1975. They used R12/R14/R15's from 1954 to 1964. Those single unit cars were heavier.
Factors such as weather, leaves on the tracks, and grade of slope affect this also.
These might be factors to consider for different lines in different climates. However, we are considering the same line not different lines.
And this line has varying grades all along its length, which you conveniently ignore. Not to mention that it runs almost entirely outside, except for the last short stretch going to Main Street.
I have not ignored these factors. Such features between stations are irrelevant in determining the minimum headway between trains.
Not to mention that it runs almost entirely outside, except for the last short stretch going to Main Street.
The line has been outside since it reached 104th St in 1918 and Flushing in 1928.
False statement, as you well know. They determine the maximum safe operating speed of a given train on the line, and the worst grade creates the bottleneck. Since the standard train in question is now the R62 series (as the Redbirds steadily disappear), that is the proper equipment reference.
Given a line perfectly level and straight throughout, you have better braking conditions and can operate at higher speeds - so your frequency of service can climb.
Your statement makes no logical sense since you are discussing the same line at different periods of time. It had the same physical characteristics when it had the higher frequency. And higher speeds would not increase frequency of service, just the opposite since you can place trains closer together when they run slower.
Tom
Thanks for correcting me on that. I need to stop posting past my bedtime...:0)
So make the trains lighter!
So, one should be suspicious of an agency like the TA that specifies its emergency braking rate to be lower than its service level braking rate.
Of course this is meaningless because the maximum rate for wheel actuated brakes is dictated by wheel adhesion. The way to overcome this limitation is to use track brakes, which provide twice the braking rate of wheel brakes. Track brakes have been used since the introduction of the PCC. Has the TA specified track brakes for its equipment? Have they specified it after the Williamsburg Bridge accident?
There's no great mystery.
1. Schedule 18 expresses to leave Main St at 200 second intervals.
2. Schedule 9 locals to leave Main St at 400 second intervals.
3. Schedule 9 locals to leave 111th St at 400 second intervals.
4. Arrange the departure times for the locals departures from 111th St occur at 200 second intervals.
5. Arrange the departure times for the locals and expresses so that they arrive at the merge before Queensboro Plaza at 100 second intervals.
6. Schedule all trains to leave Times Square at 100 second intervals.
7. Make sure that all trains travel at 9+ mph over the Times Sq interlocking.
8. Make sure all towers stay alert.
The signal system is designed to handle 40+ tph, without showing a red aspect. You can easily verify this for yourself.
I love his theoretical and science/math posts. He writes elegantly and comes up with some great stuff. Wish I had someobody like him when I was studying physics in college.
this is so true. If the solution is inexpensive, there is no room for a sizable kickback. i hate to say it but this is one of the biggest obsticles to developing anything within NYC
We are over represented. The city concil should be greatly cortailed.
Why do we need city concilmen, state senators, US senators, US congressman. Bourough Presidents.
Way too many people with there hands out competing for campaign donations. A good portion of the money come's from people looking to win contracts with the city and state. As long as the punishment for the crime of defruading the taxpayers by elected officials is a slap on the wrist, there is no deterent for them not to participate in trading contracts for campaign donation
If police officer breaks the law and gets thrown off the force he looses his pension. If a city concilmen takes an illegal bribe, he gets to keep his very generous pension. A state senator from the bronx recently got convicted of taking a bribe. He penalty, pay the bribe back and a $68,000 pension
I did not dismiss it in all situations. But you invoke it while ignoring the real safety problems that would be incurred if trains would operate today the way they did in 1957.
"Cost was never a concern of the TA. The TA bore the entire cost of the project, even though it would have been eligible for 80% UMTA funding. The TA refused federal funding because they did not want to have the project subject to federal review and oversight. Federal funding would have meant $24 million for the $30 million project."
Only if UMTA had approved it. You are presenting facts not in evidence. However, if you can point to credible sources reporting this decision, then you've made a reasonable point.
"The contractor the TA chose had a record of shoddy construction and cost overruns"
This is entirely possible, and unfortunate. But federal oversight in no way guarantees that this will not occur.
"The consultant hired to "draw up the plans" and estimate the costs was Indiana based. "
Not relevant in the least. Bechtel is San Francisco-based and does, generally, an excellent job on all kinds of construction projects all over the world. Ebasco Services (now bought up, I believe, by Raytheon) was based in NY and had a similar, well-earned, reputation. Each firm, though, had specific projects wherein there was some criticism about cost overruns and the like (most recently Bechtel and Boston's Big Dig).
Would the new signaling system to be installed on the flusing allow an increase in service.?
Safety is guaranteed by the signal system, which has remained unchanged since the early 1950's.
Schedules are guaranteed, in part, by the proper amount of equipment. There were 434 cars assigned to the Flushing line, when they operated at 36 tph. There are current roster consists of 341 cars.
However, if you can point to credible sources reporting this decision, then you've made a reasonable point.
One of the people at UMTA, who was responsible for overseeing the TA grant money at that time, remains a personal friend. I will be happy to reveal his name, after he retires.
Only if UMTA had approved it.
UMTA would not have approved a plan that precluded further expansion. They would have approved alternate plans, even if they were more expensive. The reason the TA did not submit this project was due to the project's technical shortcomings not UMTA's unwillingness to pay.
The consultant hired to "draw up the plans" and estimate the costs was Indiana based. "
The BOT/TA drew up the plans in the early 1950's. They then hired a consultant to feed them back their own plan in the 1980's. No New York company wanted to touch this one because of the plan's technical shortcomings. They knew that the TA wanted it's own plan or nothing. They also knew that the TA plan would never gain UMTA funding. The New York based firms did not want bad reputation as a result of such a fiasco.
The Indiana based firm was happy to be a TA stooge. They did not bother to do any original work. They did not even know that the western portion of the station mezzanine level had been back filled, when the station was built in 1928. This information was in the public domain. Details of the Main St station design and construction were printed in trade journals, when the station was built. It meant that a western entrance would have been far less expansive than the TA's plan.
Bechtel is San Francisco-based and does, generally, an excellent job on all kinds of construction projects all over the world. Ebasco Services (now bought up, I believe, by Raytheon) was based in NY and had a similar, well-earned, reputation
The $30 million Main St renovation was below the radar for these companies. Besides, we are talking about the design work, not the construction. The TA had its own contractor in mind for that.
What would those safety problems be? Back in 1957 subways had gone a long time without a serious accident injuring passengers (other than 12-9s).
Tom
Quiz for you: What did the TA do when it found a few years ago that the trains currently running on the system could not stop safely within the current fixed block system?
In 1957, the weight of the cars and braking distance was consistent with block length. By the 1980's, that was no longer true.
Wow, that's hard to believe with the overal good quality of the station. In reality, the only problem I heard of there involved rainwater getting into the escalators that were built at the new west end of the terminal.
How could that be possible. The escalator is covered and the shaft was supposed to be waterproofed. The escalators were also supposed to be specified for outdoor use.
that's hard to believe with the overal good quality of the station.
Don't be fooled by the exterior varnish.
"How could that be possible. The escalator is covered and the shaft was supposed to be waterproofed. The escalators were also supposed to be specified for outdoor use."
Obviously, you've never seen wind-driven rain, and rain dripping from umbrellas and raincoats and galoshes. Poor Stephen, with that selective blindness tripping him up all the time. You're all wet on this one!
If wind-driven rain can be expected to make escalator operation unreliable, then placing the escaltor on the street instead of having it sheltered in the department store is false economy and bad design
If rain dropping from umbrellas, raincoats and galoshas can be expected to make escalator operation unreliable, then the concept of using escalators where people are likely to have been exposed to the elements is questionable.
The Woodside station was built with an escalator from the street to the fare control area. That escalator had less downtime in its first fifty years of operation than the Main St escalators have had in their first five.
The Harvard Square station was built with an escalator that went from track to street level. That original escalator was always running, when I lived in Cambridge in the 1960's - more than 50 years after it had been installed.
Another famous one is n/b or s/b trains skip a local stop(s) on weekends, midday weekdays, or late nights. Is this the same issue?
Why are there no trains running on the N for two consecutive weekends (IIRC) in April?
See my previous post.
wayne
Previously (I don't know if this still is in effect now and in the future), the 7 would be suspended between Queensboro Plaza and 42nd. - TSQ. What maintenance work was MTA doing during the suspension?
All NYC Transit maps, including subway map, here.
You can list out the transfers from the map as quickly as anyone could tell them to you.
Then again, we can't expect folks who have finally girded up the courage to POST (I'm sure that 80% or more of the traffic here is lurkers who NEVER post or won't sign up to do so) to know the rules up front, so a little patience with them and friendly guidance isn't such a bad thing either.
And above all else, ya GOTTA have a sense of humor and not let the rantings of some get under yer skin. We're ALL still foamers to one degree or another here and the cross-section of personalities and interest BEYOND the foamer glass is what makes the "hobby" so interesting. I don't think anyone else with any modicum of sanity would have taken US in. :)
THANKS, DAVE!!!
I've always thought of CC as like the little child who goes to the candy store. Sees all the differnet candies beind the glass counter and wants to try everything. He found the way in here and now every question he has ever thought of about NYCT, he is asking. For the most part I don't mind the questions. People should look up the FAOs first before posting. But sometimes posters do not know how to find the FAQ or if they do find it How to find the particular Q they'd like answered.
WELCOME da foamers ... without them, we could actually press our noses on the foamer glass personally. :)
What's the difference between death and taxes? Congress doesn't meet
every year to make death worse.
Selkirk's motto of life ... "Never take life too seriously, and BEWARE of those who do. My church welcomes ALL denominations, but my favorite is the $100 bill."
That's why we have those drunks who ascended the mountain that is the Williamsburg Bridge..we all need something to laugh at! Now, where's my Arnine!? Urgh!!
Well, 22 hour day is done, I go sleep. Moo. Back to play "Steal the old man's bundle" again after 10 hours of sleep.
Chuck Greene
Not trying, eh? Come on, we're only 2 members on this crazy board. The list keeps on growing... :)
I just said we're pawns in this Subtalk maze...funny stuff!!
There are literally HUNDREDS of photos of each car type operating in that era, along with work equipment, stations, etc.
But I could always be wrong. Nah ...
Last year, there was a G.O. on the R line that weekend; it was running only as a shuttle between 95 Street and 59 Street. Hundreds of cyclists who took the R from 95 Street had to change for the N at 59 Street. Worse, the R was a single-track operation, so everyone had to carry their bikes upstairs and then downstairs at 59 Street to change from the downtown to uptown platforms, and there are very few staircases at that station, making for some very crowded and dangerous platform conditions.
I hope there'll be some coordination this year between DOT, which sponsors the event, and MTA, so that there won't be any G.O. on the R that Sunday.
---Brian
I've done it 8 times, most frequently last year. It's so big now, prepare yourself for several long waits. I was on Ft Hamilton Pkway and 92nd St for a good half hour last year because there was an obstruction on the Verrazano Bridge...
www.forgotten-ny.com
What I used to do was drive to Staten Island and park near Ft Wadsworth and bike the SI leg myself to the ferry, then take that across to Battery Park. This way, when I got to Ft Wadsworth, I didn't have to bike through SI and wait with everyone else for the ferry. Unles the route has changed, there wasn't much to see on the SI leg that you couldn't do yourself anyway.
--Mark
Keep in mind that only registered riders are permitted to participate on the Five Boro Bike Tour.
Checkpoints had been added to enforce this policy, as part of the post 9/11 security measures. The checkpoint prior to entry of the Verrazano Bridge tried to guarantee 100% compliance. Unregistered riders had turn back at this point; they were not permitted on the Verrazano Bridge or on Fort Wadsworth - which is still has a US Army contingent.
The vast bulk of the riders, who "elected" not to cross the Verrazano were unregistered riders. The unregistered riders had to evade two previous checkpoints. The previous checkpoints provided more convenient access to the Battery Park starting point. Most of the unregistered riders turned back at the two previous checkpoints.
The security measures for the 2003 tour will be stricter. It is a reality of the current time. Anybody interesed in participating should register in advance. Registration details can be obtained here.
Robert
But MTA could still renovate the inside of the place, bring it up to ADA standards, increase comfort and safety for passengers, and so on. And it could use some fireproofing.
I imagine, that, ultimately, MTA and the community will come to a compromise. The station is, after all, a community asset deserving of investment.
If the MTA wants to demolish and rebuild a station building, try Rockaway Parkway (L). It's a glorified phonebooth.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just saw the move Amelie, set in Paris, with some view of the Metro there. Even as I drink my Freedom Roast coffee, and eat my Freedom Fries, I can at least acknowledge that someone has respect for the preservation of the architectural beauty of transportation.
Eugh! Whatever next? Freedom kissing?
I suggest that similar to German Toast becoming French toast, we should call them British Chips. They are chips in Britain after all.
But hey, I actually put THOUGHT into the words I make up.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If they want to destroy the little house on Avenue H, they can might as well burn the plaques at Newkirk Ave (for the BRT, later BMT as we all know this.), AND the plaque at Brooklyn Bridge/City hall station (for the opening of the IRT, the first subway system.)
THEY CANNOT TOUCH SUCH A HISTORICAL BUILDING AS THIS, STEAM RAILROADS PASS BY AT STREET LEVEL NEARLY 100 YEARS AGO. AND THE PLACE IS NOT LANDMARKED, DAMM SHAME. THE LANDMARKS PRESERVATION COMMITTEE SHOULD GET ON THIS RIGHT AWAY.
Anyone have the Borough Historian's email or phone?
Read about Avenue H at http://www.thethirdrail.net/9912/index.htm
The MTA is in the process of trying to take over property located next to brighton local station to expand the widths of local platforms along the line.
In effect they want to take over some people's back yard and I believe demolish a few small structures.
This was reported in the brooklyn skyline last week.
Anyone noticed the renovations started on quite a few stations on the Jerome El. line in the Bronx? Notice some wooden boards set up on Mt. Eden Ave on the Manhattan bound 4 platform, by the Cross-Bronx Expwy billboard and the mezzanine on 167th st station. Looks like a long year for weekend customers on the #4 line in the Bronx and the Q line in Brooklyn with a lot of express train G.O.'s on weekdays and weekends.
I don't think anyone posted a link to Randy Kennedy's column last Tuesday. I liked the catchy title.
YOU LOOKING AT ME??
I don't think you can click on a scrolling link so here it is again:
YOU LOOKING AT ME??
Now that it's warming up - things to be ACUTELY aware of is people OVERdressed for the climate - folks wearing a coat when it's 65 degrees out, or otherwise bulkily clothed, and especially those who are twitchy and watching for reaction from the car to see if someone's looking at them. The shifty-eye thing. Growing up in the city though, I know that 25% of the car would qualify. :(
For anyone who was around in the "bad days" of life in the city, you know what I mean. For all the paranoia that our media whores are trying to peddle, at its WORST, this doesn't even come CLOSE to life in the "cold war" where we could be toast in a nanosecond. If something doesn't smell right, pay attention to your instincts. But in reality, terrorism is nothing more than most of us dealt with years ago EVERY DAY. Except for the "I wanna be embedded" types telling us that caution is something NEW.
Did folks stop going downtown because there were muggers and crime about? Not many. Folks used to drop dime on people pacing back and forth near dark alleys or drug dealers. As long as we watch out for each other, and we can keep CONGRESS from further cutting funding for dubious tax cuts, then we'll be OK. Pity those "100,000 cops" that we had in the last administration got laid off owing to budget cuts, but that's an inappropriate thought right now.
Bottom line, keep your eyes and ears open and we'll all be OK.
Especially when you're foaming at the mouth and trying to look up their skirts when they uncross their legs.
The subway scenes were very good. Let's see, the scene where 'Kersey' kills two guys was on the 8th Avenue IND and he was riding an R27/30 in the original scheme. I can't remember the car number unfortunately, but it was in the 82XX series, I think....or was it the 83XX? I also noticed some old sinage indicating the IND subway in another scene. I had no idea the TA still had signage that old in the 70's...
Topside, they were still using old-style One Way signs and olive two-color stoplights then, too. Unusual for the WB to put on a 29-year old flick in that time slot. Now let 'em run a triple bill with "The Taking Of Pelham..." and "The Incident"...
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
Arti
Buses from Hoboken to Journal Square.
Buses from Newark to Journal Square.
Pre-9/11, entire WTC branch or entire 33rd St branch closed - use the other.
Your perception is incorrect. MTA commonly performs such actions as replacing tracks overnight, with the workers pausing every few minutes to let a train go by.
Comparing GOs on a system with over 700 track miles to PATH is absurd. And, as another poster pointed out, PATH uses Shuttle buses a lot when it does have to do work.
Yeah. Hell, even Brooklyns' own, the under-appreciated Crosstown line has it over the PATH trains. `course, PATH does have the interstate routing....
www.forgotten-ny.com
So I think yes, there was originally only an island platform there, along with the little shuttle platform. The current wall platform was carved out of the former track wall, so half of the mosaics had to be destroyed to make the wall platform anyway. They are not covered on the wall platform side, because they never existed there. The only place where the mosaics were covered is where the track wall exists by the shuttle platform. The other track wall with the original mosaics is gone, as the side platform was carved out of that wall.
Put it this way, I'm sure glad that a new sensibility of design of public space (not to mention "1% for Art") have changed ideas of subway renovation.
Excellent piece, Kevin. Thanks.
BTW, is that photo of 49th Street from Lee Stokey's book? It's the only other place I've ever seen a photo of 49th Street's original mosaic.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW, I wish someone would come up with a photo of the old original mosaics under the Canal Bridge (Q/W) platform. The original BMT mosaics say "Broadway", not "Canal". When they were doing the current renovation, they tore down a scetion of the old 70's tile, and saw a little mosaic "B" in the ceiling mosaic. Unfortunately, I didn't have my camera with me, and the next time I was there it was covered again. The part where they had 70's tile removed with the little "B" was not near where one of the "Broadway" name tablets were. I am dying to see a photo of the "Broadway" mosaics. I never did. I'm sure someone has one somewhere......
The awful 50's/60's tiles found in so many older stations were typically used only where the stations were extended. They're most prominent along the route of the original IRT. In addition to 86th and 79th, they're hard to miss at 96th (where they're used throughout the south mezzanine) and 59th. The recent rehabs at 66th and 50th thankfully did away with their ugly tile. On the East Side, you'll find the same tile, but in an awful shade of green, on the northbound platforms at Bleecker and Spring; the southbound platforms had been extended in the 30's(?) in a different style, as had platforms on both sides at 33rd, 28th, and 23rd. Upper Broadway stations were also extended in the 30's, since they were served by express trains until the 50's or 60's.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the 72nd Street headhouse that opened late last year:
(Kevin, you are welcome to use these photos, and any others of mine that you come across, with attribution -- but please let me know which ones you take.)
That sounds like it would be a great webpage! I also love this topic. Station infastructure is one of my favorite subway topics.
There are quite a few secrets of the Brighton Line that you might be interested in (such as the unusual emergency exits at Beverly and Cortelyou Roads, leading to a manhole cover at street level.) So if you want some more interesting stuff on on my line, I can help you with a little bit of what I know.
But this is all quite a few months off.
It's what was done after Grant that I object to.
Enough editorializing. Kevin, here's a Grant:
Put it this way -- if you took the IND style tiling from Euclid Ave. and put it next to the original IRT tiling, you would get exactly what the downtown local stations on the Lex look like -- not a perfect match, but harmonious enough so that most people would never notice. But if you took the Grant Ave. tiles and put them next to the original Contract 1 tilework, you'd have a situation closer to the disjointed one on the uptown IRT Lex platforms at Spring, Bleecker and Astor Place platforms and the B'way local platforms above Times Square than you would to the match between the 1932-48 IND tile style and the original IRT design.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They did a nice job. The new headhouse is modern but is modeled after the old one. Check it out in person some day.
Otherwise, EXCELLENT. I always wait on the edge of my seat for the next installment of Forgotten NY. Of course, by the time Sunday rolls around, I forget :-)
At least we've still Grand Central.
The proposal is to move only the Amtrak concourse. Whether access to Amtrak will still be available from the old concourse is unclear to me. I hope it is; the new concourse will be a block farther from most transit connections.
Don't even get me started on the Loss of Penn Station......
The loss of this treasure is a travesty.
1) The New York Times referring to the razing of the station as "A monumental act of vandalism".
2) References to the current Penn Station as a basement and commuters as rats scurrying in this basement.
3) Pictures of the ruins of Pennsylvania Station lying about in the New Jersey Meadows while a train of MP-54's are seen in the background.
4) The death of the Pennsylvania Station gave birth to the Landmarks Commission to protect architectural treasures.
5) My mixed feelings about taking over the Farley Post Office building to make up for the crime of the century.
Bill "Newkirk"
And Penn Station (along with Jacqueline Onasis) probably saved it's cousin at 42nd Street and Park Avenue, Grand Central.
5) My mixed feelings about taking over the Farley Post Office building to make up for the crime of the century.
It truely is the "Crime of the Century" that that building was destroyed. As for the post office, I like the idea of trying to get something back for the rail entry to NYC. The problem is that the current Penn Station is better located, and a long block further east. We'll see, as long as you can still freely use and walk between the current Penn station and the new farley station.
It amazes me that people now "sit" to watch Knicks games in the Concourse where the real Penn station SHOULD still be.
If Penn was still there today, undoubtedly it would be given the deluxe restoration treatment a la GCT, but remember, it was 1964. Old was bad and new was good. Those who wanted to preserve it were considered crackpots and were told to get with the program. It was a completely different mindset in '63/'64.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, Since that Dark Day in 1963 ,there are now 4 rail days of rememberance: North Shore Line, January 1963; L.A. Streetcars quit March 31, 1963; Baltimore's Streetcars died November 3, 1963, and Penn Station's death began October, 1963.
Since that dark day in October, I have not ridden a train into the basement of a sports palace whenever I take ATK to NYC. I get off in Newark and take the "Hudson Tubes" to 33rd Street.
I don't know about that. Certainly in Britain, a lot of fine stations have gone:
Birmingham Curzon Street - the building's still there, but there's a rather ugly Parcel Force depot where the trainshed should be.
Birmingham New Street - okay, the original wasn't that great, but the 1960s station is a real Penn Station effort.
Birmingham Snow Hill - closed in 1972, turned into a municipal parking lot and most of it was demolished, reopened in 1987, but it's clearly not what it was. The old station probably had the best architecture of any Birmingham station.
Leeds New and Leeds Wellington - both cleared for the rather bland if useful Leeds City.
London Broad Street - a beautiful if dilapidated building which survived until the late 80s.
London Euston - went from looking like an even more grand version of Birmingham Curzon Street to the worst station in London.
Swansea Victoria - demolished to make way for a swimming pool.
It's to be named for Sen. Moynihan, who pushed he plan. The Post Office delayed the plan, hoping to outlast the city, since they wanted to keep the space. Finally, the city offered to buy the space and the PO acquiesced, but as of now, the red tape hasn't been untangled.
I'm kind of dubious about the plan anyway, since you'll be exiting on 33rd street near 9th Avenue, which is wayyyy out there.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Darn. If only I could've captured that R-142 #3 train...that would have been 499...and I was thinking about a shot of ENY yard, that would have been 500...
Yeah!!! Now I have over 500 photos. I would like to thank David Pirmann (this site), Brian (railfanwindow.com), and Harry (nycrail.com) for creating such wonderful sites inspiring me to make one of my own. Of course, I can never compete with SubTalk, Brian's great photo techniques or nycrail's 3000 pictures, but I can come close!
"Traffic was snarled, subway routes were cut short and the city's anti-terror system, Operation Atlas, went into overdrive about 8:10 a.m., when the three men were seen inching down from one of the bridge's 1,600-foot-high towers."
Yawn... so what else is new!
There was a time when editors were supposed to read the copy and catch that type of mistake.
Tom
Stop bitching about your dull life. :-)
Tom
Arti
According to Hagstrom, they run under Broadway for a while and then take a shortcut under Northern Blvd, not the Sunnyside yards.
What did I say that you disagree with?
Want me to call Hooked-on-Phonics for you?
wayne
Actually, they do for about a mile. The express tracks are still very much there at 65th Street station, then dip below the locals and curve from Broadway into Northern at about 54th Street (which is where Broadway and Northern intersect).
1) Cross-town BRONX line
2) Cross-town BROOKLYN/QUEENS line, somewhere east of the current G line, connecting Qns Blvd with something like the Rockaways
3) Utica Ave line
4) Extension of the A line past Lefferts Blvd to Springfield Blvd
5) Extension of the F line past 179 to 268 (Nassau Border)
6) Extension of the E line past Jamaica Center along Merrick Blvd to Springfield Blvd
7) A direct QUEENS-BRONX line, similar to the QBX1?
8) A direct MANHATTAN-STATEN ISLAND line (my idea is from the two stubs at Broad on the J)
9) A direct BROOKLYN-STATEN ISLAND (my idea is to have the Sea Beach perpendicularly cross 4th Ave and continue under a tunnel into Tompkinsville or St. George or somewhere else---Where?)
10) Extension of the 7 line to College Point
11) One or more tracks on the LIRR ROW to supplement Queens Blvd service
12) The building of an express track along the J line, veering off at Cypress Hills along Jamaica Ave meeting over Alabama Ave and reconstruction of Woodhaven Blvd station so trains could freely stop at only Jamaica Center, Stuphin Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd, ENY, Myrtle (maybe Marcy?)
Please rank these in order of use and importance, and if you see any way any of these can be improved upon, say so! Exclude funding/budget as a reason for not doing any of these please. Thanks.
This line is very important, but will probably never be built. I still say that it should be built along the guidelines of the second system plan.
2) Cross-town BROOKLYN/QUEENS line, somewhere east of the current G line, connecting Qns Blvd with something like the Rockaways
How about using the abandoned LIRR Row, and linking it into the QB line?
4) Extension of the A line past Lefferts Blvd to Springfield Blvd
5) Extension of the F line past 179 to 268 (Nassau Border)
6) Extension of the E line past Jamaica Center along Merrick Blvd to Springfield Blvd
I say that the most important of these options is to extend the (A) line. You could possibly get riders off of the E/F line. But the TA should look into extending all three of these lines.
8) A direct MANHATTAN-STATEN ISLAND line (my idea is from the two stubs at Broad on the J)
Crossing the harbor would be too expensive. I say dont do 9) A direct BROOKLYN-STATEN ISLAND (my idea is to have the Sea Beach perpendicularly cross 4th Ave and continue under a tunnel into Tompkinsville or St. George or somewhere else---Where?)
I say do it differently:
Build the Worth St subway, coming from the (E) tracks after the (C) branches off. Worth St subway crosses east river, meets S4th st station. From there it runs to just north of the crosstown line's Bedford-Nostrand station, and uses the provision for a linkup southward. Heads south along the Local Tracks of the crosstown line to Church Av. From there, 2 of the LL tracks will run southwesterly to cross the narrows and reach staten Island. (exactly where i dont know. Maybe it will meet 59th st on 4th av). The line should only run to meet the SIR, and allow a free transfer. If this line demand express service, send the (F) to Staten Island, the (E) to Coney Island. (G) runs local to Church.
10) Extension of the 7 line to College Point
11) One or more tracks on the LIRR ROW to supplement Queens Blvd service
Or, build an entirely new line to get riders off of QB. A plan from 1939 designed it as a branch from the 60th st tunnel and called it the Horace Harding Blvd line. Of course, this was before the R tied into Queens Blvd. Still, a new line heading eastward (it turns east and nicks the tip of the existing Astoria line) north of QB would be great.
There was supposed to have been a subway line going out there. The proposed route after Euclid Ave.
76th Street!!!!!!...........
That is separate route from the Fulton Street Extension to 229th STreet.
How congested do you want the QB line to be?
Or, build an entirely new line to get riders off of QB. A plan from 1939 designed it as a branch from the 60th st tunnel and called it the Horace Harding Blvd line.
A Horace Harding Blvd Expressway Line would of course answer the previous question...
While I agree that the "Horace Harding route would be a great improvement, it would be very easy to connect the old abandoned Rockaway Branch to Queens Blvd at the existing provision at 63rd Drive. Currently, two locals end at 71-Continental Ave. All you have to do is take the V or the R and send that down the Rockaway line. No extra line needs to go through Queens Blvd.
Everyone wins, except for 67th Ave and 71-Continental itself, as they would loose one train each. But continental has plenty of service already with the 2 expresses and one remaining local. Unfortunately only 67th would suffer, as it's service would be cut in half.
But I feel it's for the greater good, so many people would benefit, especially the new stations along the Rockaway line at let's say, Austin St, Yellowstone Blvd, Metropolitan Ave, Myrtle Ave, Jamaica Ave (transfer for the J), Atlantic Ave (former LIRR Woodhaven Station), and 101 (former LIRR Ozone Park Station)
Are you telling me there is an unused non-revenue connection from the LIRR to Queens Blvd at 63rd Drive? I always thought it was just a provision built in just at 63rd Drive itself, and that there is no connection between the LIRR and the Queens line.
wayne
IINM on the LIRR Main Line just East of 63rd Drive.
Because of where the ROW is, though, digging a tunnel would be eased because there would not be a need for cut and cover in the way they had to under Northern Boulevard or the way they will do it under parts of Second Av.
Why not just build the airtrain connection with JFK. Riders could then take the super-express service if it ever get built. If you look at it, it would take the same amount of time to get into the city as the direct subway connection plus the cost of building and operating the connection would be not be put on the backs of other subway and bus riders.
An added bennifit would it would be a stimulus for development around shea statduim area. The area would be transformed into the perfect location for convention and confernce facilities creating numerous jobs that new americans need to climb the economic ladder.
Dead in the water:
-The 7 extension t6o College Point. They missed their chance in the 1930's when they abandoned the LIRR Whitestone Branch and didn't at that time add it to the subway system. The ROW was sold off.
-Direct Staten Island. A great dream, but I think the cross harbor freight tunnel is more necessary, and subway and heavy rail can not run together, so the tunnel would have to be a double decker. Possible, but very expensive.
Actually I agree with Mike, that a LaGuardia line should be a priority above any of the ones above.
The LaGuaradia line could be:
-an extension of the Astoria El and/or
-Extension of the M along the existing NYCRR ROW right next to it at Metropolitan and the BQE/Grand Central near LaGuardia. This would also give some access to some parts of Queens that don't have it now.
South End Stops
Pacific Street/Atlantic Avenue
Atlantic Avenue/Boerum Pl
Jay St/Myrtle Avenue
Navy St/Myrtle Ave
Clinton-Washington St/Myrtle
Bedford-Nostrand Ave/Myrtle
Marcy Ave/Myrtle
Broadway/Myrtle
North End Stops
Metopolitan Avenue
Ellot Ave/69th Street
Grand Avenue/69th Street
51st Avenue/69th Street
Queens Blvd/69th Street
Roosevelt St-Broadway
Northern Blvd
LGA Marine Terminal - 82nd Street
LGA Central Terminal - 94th Street
A relatively cheap way of getting something important built. I like this idea very much!
The other alternative would be a branch from the Flushing Line, but that would really require a second line at Flushing Main St to handle the crowds first - I quite like the idea of putting a fast line down the middle of the LIE.
Or alternatively LIRR service to SI :-D
It very easy to add a secound level or build the tunnel 4 tracks across. If both project would be built together the costs could be shared.
In the long run it would save the MTA the cost of operating many of the express bus runs from staten island.
As for the best way to connect LGA to mass transit. Extend airtrain to LGA . Riders from LGA could then transfer to one of the super express services being talked about for JFK. In addtion it will serve two other needs.
1)Allow easier transfers from international flights(JFK) to the network of domestic flights that leave from LGA
2) Opens up the under used areas around shea stadium to hotel and convention centers.
Best of all, most if not all of the costs would be passed on to the traveling public who use the airport in the form of a fee similar to the one assest at JFK
It very easy to add a secound level or build the tunnel 4 tracks across. If both project would be built together the costs could be shared.
In the long run it would save the MTA the cost of operating many of the express bus runs from staten island.
As for the best way to connect LGA to mass transit. Extend airtrain to LGA . Riders from LGA could then transfer to one of the super express services being talked about for JFK. In addtion it will serve two other needs.
1)Allow easier transfers from international flights(JFK) to the network of domestic flights that leave from LGA
2) Opens up the under used areas around shea stadium to hotel and convention centers. There is a huge market for small conventions and company meeting that people fly in from allovet th country and world and fly out the same day. It has beeen identified that NYC has very few facilities to cater to this market. Besides hotel space, the fact that most domestic flights go to LGA and international go to JFK is part of the problem.
Best of all, most if not all of the costs would be passed on to the traveling public who use the airport in the form of a fee similar to the one assest at JFK
In the long term, would it be cost-effective to order equipment meeting FRA standards so that the expensive dual infrastructure would not have to be in order, or not?
True, but then the connection would have to be to the LIRR and not the subway system. Due to FRA regulations, Subway can not run with conventional trains whether it be freight, commuter, Amtrak or whatever. The LIRR can run with freight trains.
1. LaGuardia Airport Access. Via either the Astoria El extension (which may be subway) or some other route, perhaps using LIRR rolling stock via East Side Access/63rd Street Lower Tunnel/Sunnyside Yard Route/Amtrak NYCRR to the Airport. Some intermediate stops, but not overly many, ought to be included.
2. Queens Super-Express Service via the LIRR ROW and 63rd Street Tunnel. This should be helpful in relieving congestion along the Queens Boulevard Line.
3. Extension of the Hillside Avenue line to Springfield Boulevard. Additional stops at 188th Street, Francis Lewis Boulevard, and Springfield Boulevard, with a terminal there. Although the instructions are to ignore funding, I'll put this down as a two-track extension anyhow.
4. Begin modernization of SIR or begin construction of a new subway system there in conjunction with a cross-Narrows tunnel coming into Brooklyn (probably 4th Avenue). I'm uncertain as to the route. Build a bi-level tunnel so as to put the subway on one level and Freight on the other. Drastically cut the express bus service.
5. Extension of the Archer Avenue subway. Along either the LIRR St. Albans ROW or Merrick Boulevard. Stations likely at Linden Boulevard, 120th Avenue, Springfield Boulevard, Green Acres Mall.
6. Prop 12.
The others I either don't know enough about to comment intelligently on (Utica Avenue) or I think unlikely and don't care to assign an order of unlikelihood (I don't see that Flushing line extension happening, at all. I'll add one more proposal for the future, if something happens on Governor's Island that requires service there through to, say, Red Hook.
Well, if you extend the tunnels of the 8th Avenue Line local tracks (E platform) south, turn ESE, you would cross under Gov's Island, and you could run a line that would feed into the Fulton Local (going AROUND the museum tracks).
On the other hand, the bus ride to Kings Plaza Mall is long, boring, crowded, slow, and it hurts the mall because nobody feels like going there, unless you're driving (still the traffic). So I would think that a Utica Avenue Line (that turns onto Flatbush and ends @ Avenue U) would also be important.
A Manhattan-Staten Island line could be combined with a Brooklyn-Staten Island line, and (J)(Z) trains could run to Coney Island via Sea Beach super-express. (J) trains could switch @ Kings Highway and run local to 86th Street , turn around, if Stillwell can't hold them all.
A crosstown Bronx line, plus a Queens-Bronx line, connected with the Flushing and a 10th/11th Avenue line to serve the Javits Center, would make possible a "Flushing Loop" service that would go around the existing two tracks @ 242 Street and turn somewhere (i.e. build two more tracks and support the outer platforms).
If the (E) is going to be extended to Merrick/Springfield, why not continue on Merrick on to Rosedale at the Nassau border? Then people could go to Green Acres without, again, the bus, the infamous dollar vans, or a car (or LIRR, expensive).
Extension of the (F) is also essential. There are serious problems of overcrowding on the buses that feed 165th Street Terminal. Some of these buses could be replaced altogether by this extended service. Lines could cross/terminate at intermediate points to avoid everyone getting on at the same stop.
I don't know the details of this LIRR ROW, but if it can be fitted to run subway trains, I say go for it. QB is overloaded. However, where would it go (eastern end)?
Why extend the (E) and the (A)? Isn't that kind of redundant? Unless you're trying to make a loop of some kind. I really don't see the point of extending both.
I don't understand the second one. However, another Brooklyn-Queens crosstown somewhere, even if extending the (M) north and connecting the old El tracks to the (G) at Bedford-Nostrand, and call this route the (P).
1--A Cross-Bronx line is a recent addition to the project, having been lasted in the third chapter's appendix as a new proposed route that is currently waiting for funding.
2--The alternate Crosstown Brooklyn-Queens line is via the connection between the Myrtle-Central line and the Crosstown (G) line. This was originally a IND Second System proposal that was never built and diverges of the G line north of Bedford-Nostrand Avenues Station, continuing along Lafayette Avenue to connect to the Myrtle-Central line north of Broadway.
3--The Utica Avenue line, is of course, the orignal IND Second System proposal that is included in the project. The modified later IRT version along Utica AVenue is not included.
4--I have a modified version of this routing, instead of the A extended via Liberty Avenue to Springfield Blvd.--which was originally also a Second System proposal, It is extended only to Merrick Blvd. in Jamaica.
5--The Hillisde AVenue line is extended to 267th STreet in Floral Park, with the four tracks going past the terminal. A branch from this extension serves Belmont Park and Nassau County.
6--The extension of E service is along Jamaica AVenue to and past Springfield Blvd. into Nassau County.
7--I'm not sure how you vision this route to be, is it a single two track routing that only serves the Bronx and Queens, or is it a branch that connects to a trunk line?
The way I envision it, the direct Bronx-Queens subway connection links to a trunk line in both boroughs. ON the Queens side, the line connects to a new trunk line along Northern Blvd. On the Bronx side, it connects to a trunk line along Bronxwood AVenue, that serves Westchester County. At Parkchester, where the line offers transfers ot the Pelham line, there are connections to this line from another trunk line that comes from the 2nd AVenue line in Manhattan.
8--I have no direct Manhattan-Staten Island subway route.
9--The most obvious choice for a Brooklyn-Staten Island subway is from a connection from 4th AVenue. I have not only one, but two. One connection is south of 59th Street east along 62nd Street then south along Ridge Blvd. for 3 stops before burrowing under the narrows to St. George. This route connects to a trunk line along Forest Avenue and a Spur along Bay Street. The second route is south of 95th Street leading to tunnel to Grasmere, where it continues along an El via Hylan Blvd.
10--I have no Flushing extension to College Point nor to Bayside, the new Northern Blvd. line serves the same purpose. for the once proposed Flushing extension to both of these communities.
11--The only additional tracks that are on the LIRR ROW for subway use is the the original LIRR routing that connected to the mainline in Rego Park and ran along the abandoned Rockaway ROW. This route is revived in the transit project--in fact it never was abandoned--and is currently used for the revived train to the plane route to JFK and trains from the Myrtle-Central line and Winfield Spur.
12--This track alignment I have--the express track along Jamaica AVenue. It is used for peak J service to/from the Archer AVenue extension--the route that the E extension to Springfield Blvd. and into Nassau County takes--J service shares the line along with E service east of Jamaica Center. THe J/Z skip-stop is discontinued as the Z is more suited for another routing--along 2nd Avenue via the Nassau Street original proposed connection for the new 2nd AVenue line. Another route serves the Broadway-Jamaica El with the J train.--Note that the El to 168th STreet still survives in this fictionalized scenario.
So these are tidbits from the transit project for those of you who are unsure about whether you're interested.
And to all you new members... I want to see you up there on a regular basis. There are lots of opportunities to help out at the museum, in all areas, and we need you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Brian
Heh, heh, heh. Transit and weather were really together today!
-Stef
Actually we had 7 new members, buy Sparky's count (nine by mine, two of which have just passed their trolley course & are probationary operators). We also did in fact see some of the "usual suspects" return from the October charter (Harry Beck came down from Boston; M4-Mike from Washington D.C.; Lotch It & Peter the CI).
In all there was about 2 dozen of us.
>>>Actually we had 7 new members, buy Sparky's count (nine by mine, two of which have just passed their trolley course & are probationary operators).<<<
In actuality it was nine new members, with 7 newbies signing on yesterday.
>>>"M4-Mike from Washington D.C."<<<
Did I miss somebody here??? I have a list of attendess that I'll
list below, but M4-Mike from DC???
>>>all there was about 2 dozen of us.<<<
Well the final count was a bakers dozen + a dozen = Twenty-Five.
The attendees and I wish to thank them all personally for making it such a sucessful day, despite the dreary conditions.
The Crew:
Big Lou from Brooklyn [RT coordinator & pilot],
Thurston,
Stef,
Anon_e_mous, CONNCO 775 for Shuttle Service,
Peter the Pole, handled "Brandon's Brithday Party" TATS 629,
JohnS, "Sparky" Dispatcher & Event Host
Jeff H, Technical Advisor
George Boucher, Manager for expediting the new members welcome package.
Members:
Todd Glickman,
Nochit & Nochette,
Silver Fox,
Mike F,
Harry Beck, the Webmeister "From the Other Side of the Tracks",
CI Peter,
Sgt. Jeff,
BMT Man,
RIPTA42Hope Tunnel,
New Members:
Transit Chuck 'G',
Brooklyn,
David Greenburg,
Railfan Window,
Michael & Leslie Caruso,
Andrew Borrs & Samanta Fish
R-30
Once again, THANKS >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Next time, you make sure you get the R-17, I'm sorry!!!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Jimmy you have helped already by becoming a member of BERA. That's
the initial step.
>>>At least when track repairs are needed,<<<
We will advise the track guru of your willingness.
>>>or they need a subway motorman.<<<
subway motorman, is a promotional level at BERA, you have to earn the
right to do it. It's Streetcars first for the basics, then your
work your way up.
8-) ~ Sparky
Hey, let us all know if one of those becomes available! I'd love for the Electric City Trolley Museum to also get one! They operate trolleys over meticulously mantained freight railroad track for a run of about 2 miles each way, including a tunnel almost a mile long! That would be perfect for subway cars. When I went on a charteed trolley ride, the operator had the trolley up to about 40mph inside the tunnel! Wouldn't it be awesome to ride a redbird at those speeds through this tunnel???
---Brian
Take Pride,
Brian
This museum had better not have any WD's.
---Brian
Careful, they have been known to pop up at Branford :)
Kinda of amusing the placement too. Clearly they were having fun if you know operating procedures. Leading point diverge, you have to come to a complete stop prior to movement across the points, then the rule is 4 MPH across it and the platform is right there. So detecting wheels at 10 MPH in a 4MPH zone ... I suppose only operators got the joke. :)
It couldn't have been a real WD. Real WD's are eternal.
The WD 10 was a *joke* ... that's why I love Branford so much - inhabited by a bunch of sick puppies who can have FUN while also taking safety seriously. Professionals are capable of having fun after doing things properly. They put it up the week before for the Autumn in New York subway event and left it up for us subtalkers. Our buddy Larry bagged some shots of it which can be linked to below:
WD at "Avenue L"
CLOSEUP of WD at "Avenue L" on station entry post
I included the long shot just so you could see the interlocking leading up to it, and the futility of actually putting a PERMANENT WD at that location. Only the MTA would bother. :)
Actually, that's not the rule at Branford. The only museum I know
that requires a full stop for facing-point switches is BSM, and
that's prototypical of the way it was done in Baltimore.
The simulated WD signal was of course not a real wheel detector.
Dem things are expensive! The idea was the brainchild of Dave
Barraza. I helped him design and install the circuit, which
used a short audio overlay (no IJ) track circuit. We did actually
go through the trouble of calibrating the timer for 10 MPH.
When I saw the WD10, it cracked me up. Did anyone manage to actually HIT it? :)
Had that happen once. Not fun. I'm also sure with juicy rail, there would have also been slippage had ya dragged the LoV as well. Maybe it might be time to install one of those roller coaster chainworks between the iron and be done with it. Heh.
I thought they had more like 19, once they get the bridge put back.
The steam side, which shares the freight track is 13 miles. But the trolley line was a brand new ROW just for them, i.e. the Laurel line.
It goes past the AA baseball field vs. past the Lackawanna Station Hotel.
Chuck Greene
Anyway, it was agood time had by all, even though it was raining on Sunday.
I left early because I had things to do at home.
Chuck Greene
Hopefully someone will write a full report.
---Brian
Here's a quickie of why 1689 came out to play. I think the photos,
that have been posted tell the whole story.
Our technical advisor, Jeff H., was doing maintenance on 5466 till
early Sunday AM. Since he was working under the car, he "blue flagged" it.
When he completed his tasks, did not remove the blue flag.
Here's the rules pertaining to blue flags:
A blue flag or light displayed at one or both ends of a car indicates
that workmen are under, on top of or near the car. Do not move,
couple to, or raise or lower the pole of a car protected with a
blue flag.
A blue flag may only be removed by the person who placed it. Said
person shall mark the blue flag with their name.
Well, Jeff H is a PM person and also the time he completed servicing
the car and return later in the day, was much after we had started
the SubTalk Gathering.
It was planned to operate 5466 solo, but due to the weather conditions
and having to walk a pole around in the rain, it was much easier to
run Branford's Odd Couple. 1689\5466, with the correct pole
trailing in the direction of traffic. The HiV was scratched due to the weather.
So in the AM, when we located 5466 blue flagged 1689 & 6688 were
substituted till the blue flag on 5466 was removed.
6688 made a brief appearance since she's still in primer in between
the rain drops.
For a full report, you have to put all the posts together and read on.
I didn't joint the gang till 1400, after we took care of Brandon's
Birthday Party and gave the party attendees a Subway Ride.
At SubTalk ~ Branford 2, I wasn't drenched this time.
Split the Railway into two dedicated blocks, no switches, no red balls to
worry about. Some slight delays with Birthday Car 629, while yards
moves were being done. CONNCO 775 also did 1 thru run while they
did RT movements in the yard.
I noted comments about the various routes displayed in 1689. How
about this one, and it could be done by water on a barge.
S - Special between Broad Channel [upper] and Coney Island [lower].
The roll cranking Greenpoint Gremlin at work. >GG<
Once again grateful appreciation to all who participated.
8-) ~ Sparky
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
By the way, did I mention Sparky makes one heck of a pot of coffee?
Jimmy
Andy
Chuck Greene
You just push a button marked “go” and the train makes its own way to the next station.
See: Victoria Line/Jubilee Line for details!
John
I'm getting old and cranky. Gimme them gott damm handles or I'll whack someone upside the head. Me gotta go. heh. Nice to know that there are (and WILL BE) *real* trains to run in the future even if I have to find the money to get down to Connecticut to do it. Ahhhhhhh! BLESS you and everyone else at BERA for making it possible. And hopefully 50 years from now as well so folks can see that operating trains actually *was* a skilled craft. :(
Most of the bus routes that fed the subway at 169th now go to Parsons/Archer, so 169th is no longer as big a transfer point. It is still a significant tranfer point to the Q30 and Q31.
They terminate at the Sutphin Blvd-Archer Ave Subway Station of the "E", "J" and "Z"; which is also the Jamaica LIRR Station.
I remember taking the "R" train to 169th St the first week of service (during the pm rush hours). The subway station as well as Hillside Avenue was like a ghost town. It was amazing how different the area was after the removal of the Merrick Blvd. and Murdock Ave bus routes.
I can attest to that. When I want to Edison HS from 85-87, the flow at 169th was incredibly heavy. Not only from busses, but from illegal commuter vans which thrived at the time (and still do to some extent).
FF-6th ave local,
to Court st. forest hills
WHOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!
---Brian
;)
---Brian
(URL: http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/70881p-65905c.html)
A: Operates between 207 Street and Far Rockaway only. Rush hours to/from Rockaway Park peak direction only (AM rush hours to 207 St PM rush to Rock. Park). Late night A all stops between 207 Street and Far Rockaway. Would have 10-12 min headways outside rush (except nights) and about 7 min during rush.
B: Operates between 168 Street and Coney Island via CPW Local, 6th Ave Express and West End Express. B express between Pacific-36th Street. B operates 24/7.
C: Operates between 145 Street Manhattan and Lefferts Blvd, Queens. C operates express 145-Euclid Av. Rush hours C extended to Bedford Pk. Blvd. via Concourse Local (though I wished that it would go to Bedford Pk. Blvd non-rush except nights). Late nights C is a shuttle between Euclid Ave and Lefferts Blvd. Would have 12-15 min headways outside rush and about 7 min during rush.
D: Operates between 205 Street and Coney Island via Concourse Express, CPW/6th Ave Express, Brighton Local. D operates 24/7. D Concourse Express AM rush to Manhattan, PM rush from Manhattan.
K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave via 8th Ave/Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Chambers Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M runs to Coney Island via Brighton Local. Late nights M a shuttle between Metro. and Myrtle Ave.
N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. N express between Pacific and 59 Street. Late nights N runs local between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn via Montague Tunnel.
Q: Operates between 57 Street-7th Avenue and Brighton Beach via Broadway/Brighton Express. Operates wkdays 6:30-9:30 PM. (Note: I'm not even arguing for the Q to operate weekends or head to 179).
R: Operates between 71-Continental Ave to 95th Street via Queens Blvd. Local the entire stretch. Late nights R operates between Pacific Street and 95 Street as a local.
W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Avenue via Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy via West End Local. Operates weekdays 6:30-9:30 PM.
As for the C (as opposed to the K) being the Concourse train, that's nostalgia on my part. Otherwise, except for those on the G (and they have a legitimate gripe), who would this plan offend?
Comments as always are welcomed
Trust me, the MTA can be very slothful, even when it comes to a seemingly easy task of installing interlockings.
Elevator installation and escalator repairs are the worst.
Why does the brighton express HAVE TO BE a Q train?
The Brighton Express doesn't necessarily HAVE TO BE a Q but should be a Broadway line. Before all of this construction on the Manhattan Bridge, I distinctly remember the D 6th Ave train being overcrowded while the old Q (or QB) tended to not nearly be as crowded. This was because during rush, 6th Ave trains were more popular than Broadway trains. Add that to the fact that the 6th Ave train was express on the Brighton and we got the D being extremely crowded. If you ran the Q Express, then you'd have more balance on the line. People would be split over going to the more popular 6th Ave line, or grabbing the Brighton Express.
Still, using the "Draft Recommended Plan" as the basis for discussion, my preference would be for keeping the D on the Brighton, but running the B 24/7, to Bedford Park Blvd. (rush), to 145th St. (middays and evenings), or to 205th St. (nights and weekends, when the D does not run). This means that there would be 2 local services on CPW at all times.
I second that notion. In fact, if they really do go through with this ridiculous plan, I think we all should organize a formal protest. Don't invite Fred, though, he'll just be trying to convince the MTA to make the (N) train to be a magical super-express that only makes three or four stops and runs at 60 MPH all the time, and to blow up the Montague Street tunnel...LOL.
Write to them. Pose an alternative. Nag them. Politely. Be a nudnick, but a nice nudnick. A reasonable nudnick. Get others to join you with the same alternative.
Maybe with Rock Pk trains included, but i dont think so. Then again the A does come 2x as often as the C, so you could be right.
Before all of this construction on the Manhattan Bridge, I distinctly remember the D 6th Ave train being overcrowded while the old Q (or QB) tended to not nearly be as crowded. This was because during rush, 6th Ave trains were more popular than Broadway trains. Add that to the fact that the 6th Ave train was express on the Brighton and we got the D being extremely crowded.
This was because the Q was a peak direction only line that ran quite infrequently, and the main local was the M train. Further, you're saying that we should discourage people from using the "D" train by making it inconvenient? That's like saying that the MTA should make the F/R the expresses through the 63rd tunnel to discourage passengers from using the 53rd st E train. IT MAKES NO SENSE! If 6th av is truly the more convienient train for riders, they will just take an express to Prospect Park and catch the next 6th av train. Why not just give them what they want? But as usual, subtalkers want to see a return to 'real' BMT service and they want Broadway/Brighton expresses. This is not 'sound logic'. It's 'Subtalk foolishness".
As for giving them what they want, under normal circumstances the 6th Ave line is a more popular line than the Broadway Line during rush, because it lies in the middle of the corporate district between 34 and 50th. "Why not just give them what they want", make the 6th Ave service directly available to all stations on the Brighton line. The Broadway Line should be a Brighton Express because riders on Brighton have a tendency to favor a Brighton Express. Yet it shouldn't be overcrowded because these same riders favor 6 Av over B'way. What I think Brighton Express riders who are looking for 6th Ave service might wind up doing in this scenario is take the B'way Exp to 34th Street and then transfer to one of FOUR 6th Ave lines (read: shorter wait for 6th Ave train). This got nothing to do with BMT vs. IND. In fact, I actually like the IND a little more than the BMT. It has more to do with ridership patterns. If we did it your way, we'd have a severely overcrowded 6th Ave train and a somewhat underused B'way train.
The analogy ISNT flawed. How could you say that? Does it matter where the passengers are coming from? noooooo. But you're saying that suburban passengers and people who live within the city are as different as apples and oranges, something that makes NO sense. If 10,000 people get on an E train from the LIRR, or 10,000 people get on a Q train from buses, it doesnt make a single bit of difference. The point is this: One line is more popular, than the other, and so to make it less convenient we send the more popular line where people dont want it to go. To give an analogy more in line with your point-of-view, it would be like making "G" trains the crosstown express and the "F" the local (if this were possible) because the express generally attracts more riders, so if we send it where people dont want it to go, we can reduce crowding on the line. Plus, they can transfer to TWO manhattan lines at Hoyt-schermerhorn. This is the kind of logic that you are advocating.
As for giving them what they want, under normal circumstances the 6th Ave line is a more popular line than the Broadway Line during rush, because it lies in the middle of the corporate district between 34 and 50th. "Why not just give them what they want", make the 6th Ave service directly available to all stations on the Brighton line. The Broadway Line should be a Brighton Express because riders on Brighton have a tendency to favor a Brighton Express.
You just contradicted yourself. You say first that we should give people what they want by sending the more popular trains local, but then you say that the express is the more heavily trafficed line. Thus, we can come to the following conclusion:
6th av line: more popular.
Brighton express: more popular.
The solution is to make the Brighton express a 6th av train with a few more extra trainsets. Anyone could figure that out.
What I think Brighton Express riders who are looking for 6th Ave service might wind up doing in this scenario is take the B'way Exp to 34th Street and then transfer to one of FOUR 6th Ave lines (read: shorter wait for 6th Ave train).
So, you are saying this:
Instead of getting off at Prospect Park, and just waiting for the next train, they will take a train all the way to 34th, where they will have to walk up stairs and then possibly around long ramps? I seriously doubt that, and i think anyone would.
It has more to do with ridership patterns. If we did it your way, we'd have a severely overcrowded 6th Ave train and a somewhat underused B'way train.
No. The 6th av trains will be overcrowded not because of the plan, but because that's where riders want to go. If 6th av IS more popular, then more people will ride it. It's like saying that we could increase crosstown ridership from queens by extending the G to 179th as the express and then sending the F as a local to 71st continental. Afterall, the G also has a metrocard transfer to the 7, a line that runs across the highly popular 42nd st, right? And, we'll be putting more service on the local tracks if people are heading to 6th av. Of course thats wrong. Your idea that we should make service inconvenient for passengers, and that people will then ride trains that go where they dont want to go, is a bit strange.
"If we terminated the Fulton st express at the transit museum, more people would the "C" train!"
You should be thrilled though, it looks like the MTA is looking to put the 6th Ave as a Brighton Express.
You should be thrilled though, it looks like the MTA is looking to put the 6th Ave as a Brighton Express.
Keep in mind that when the 6th av side is open, the Brighton exp usually is a 6th av train.
I noticed that your handle is Q exp..... Might that be a reason why you want the Q to be express? haha.
Hey "J trainloco" sound like the perfect fit for the J. Peoples on that train can get a little insane at times...then again that's true for other train lines.
I don't think NYCT wants to run 4 services on CPW on the weekends, though. I also think they won't spend the money for the added Rockaway service. At best, they'd terminate half the Rockaway trains at Howard Beach (so that JFK gets better service).
I also suspect that running the Nassau St service to the Brighton tracks will cause switching delays at Dekalb that your new switches don't help with.
As for the switch problem at DeKalb, yeah the switch could be a pain, but I'm thinking more in terms of ridership. If the M was actually a decently-used train while on the Brighton during rush, why not just bring it back to the Brighton? West End riders generally seem to avoid the M.
The easiest fix to this plan: run the B as a yellow B to 57th/7th on weekends but keep it as an orange B on weekdays.
But NYCT seems to think that, while demand north of Canal calls for two locals and one express, demand south of Canal calls for two expresses and one local. Given how easy it would would be to move the N from the bridge to the tunnel at a later date, I won't argue with NYCT's plan to send the N over the bridge, as long as it's reevaluated a few months after the service begins (just as the W Astoria express was reevaluated and, in the end, localized).
As for the guess-the-platform game, an annunciator could be placed at the west ("north") end of the NB express platform at Canal announcing approaching R's at the local platform. (There's still no guarantee that an N won't come first and merge in front of the R, but it would be better than nothing.)
I'm in favor of the current proposal (the one that seems to be so thoroughly attacked on the board), though not quite sure about the N on bridge on weekends.
And it had better be done soon, since the bridge will soon be closed entirely on weekends, and even the Q will use the tunnel.
Like you, I think the plan is basically a sound one. I'd very much like to see midday M service through Montague, but I can't blame NYCT for trimming it back. My other two quibbles have nothing to do with the bridge itself, although one way to correct one of them would also eliminate what appears to be the biggest complaint about the plan. (I don't think it really matters much if the B ends up on the Brighton and the D on the West End, but sending them back to where people remember them certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.)
Welcome to Transit! >g
I agree, I really don't want to see the M cut out middays through the Montague, but I do understand if they do. I just wish they would reconsider making Chambers the terminal. They should terminate it middays with the J at Broad of it must be cut from 9th Ave. There is no reason that they should have to cut it all the way at Chambers.
AT rush hour both the J and the Z terminate at Broad, all the while M's are passing through Broad also, and continuing on. Since there are less TPH middays than rush hours, I don't see why the M can't be turned at Broad during the day. As for their motivation for always insisting on Chambers as a terminal is beyond me. It's bad enough Nassau riders have to deal with that all weekend, the M riders shouldn't have to deal with loosing Fulton Street-Broadway Nassau during the week also
True. The same has happened on the weekends at 53 and 5th Ave and Lex (now only the E) without huge alarms. There don't even seem to be loud complaints that getting from 6th Ave to E 53rd or Queens Plaza is much harder than it used to be. These service reductions have been accepted because they are part of a greater good.
My experience with 2 services each of which has 10 minute headways is that they tend to come one right after the other, and then you wait 8 minutes for the next one anyway. This was especially true for much of the time that the N and R were the only services on upper Broadway.
8 minute headways aren't bad if they are real. The problem is that theoretical 8 minute headways often become 12 followed by 4.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/branfordmarch2003/branfordmarch2003.html
Take Pride,
Brian
Now, sister #27 sits beside her. It interesting to watch the musical chairs on the shop tracks. 27 was in back of 6688 in barn #5, now #197 is keeping her company.
---Brian
---Brian
I also like the Redbird 1 (rare indeed) to South Ferry via "local-express" whatever that means.
-Stef
---Brian
But.....after ALL the LONG HOURS of work the 3/4 Toners put into
GETTING that car down to one SINGLE paintcolor coat, I think notte.
---Brian
We had the side signs signed for a while as a special from 34th and 6th to 36th and 4th. I changed that to the more realistic BB from 36th and 4th to Coney Island (West End shuttle). And for a while it was a special from Aqueduct Race Track to Broad Channel.
-Stef
---Brian
-Stef
I just went over the video, and it was 15 minutes of non-stop action. It wasn't too bad for my first try with the camcorder (new toy).
I'll be sure to give you a copy.
-Stef
The Dispatcher of the Day, would like a copy also. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Regarding your honor roll, think you only left out 4. Andrew, who is a brand new operator, Chuck Green & another couple who's names escapes me.
The museum did very well by this charter & we all had a marvelous time, so what more could you have asked for ... right the same as me, a sunny day
---Brian
Chuck Greene
Who said we are not a girl kind of place ?
BTW, Note to the new members, try to fit "Member's Day" (April 26th) into your schedule, it is a lot of fun ... picnic, photo albums to look at, storys tall and other wise told, plus trolley rides.
Thanks Brian and everone else for the pictures, did you give the R9 cab back to heypaul, or is he hunting for it?
Jimmy
I caught you in this picture:
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st2/pages/bera-st2-03.htm
"But no one has posted any pics on the Low-V"
You've got to scroll past the second page that I posted to see the Low-V photos:
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st2/pages/bera-st2-30.htm
-Larry
-Larry
A: Operates between 207 Street and Far Rockaway only. Rush hours to/from Rockaway Park peak direction only (AM rush hours to 207 St PM rush to Rock. Park). Late night A all stops between 207 Street and Far Rockaway. Would have 10-12 min headways outside rush (except nights) and about 7 min during rush.
B: Operates between 168 Street and Coney Island via CPW Local, 6th Ave Express and West End Express. B express between Pacific-36th Street. B operates 24/7.
C: Operates between 145 Street Manhattan and Lefferts Blvd, Queens. C operates express 145-Euclid Av. Rush hours C extended to Bedford Pk. Blvd. via Concourse Local (though I wished that it would go to Bedford Pk. Blvd non-rush except nights). Late nights C is a shuttle between Euclid Ave and Lefferts Blvd. Would have 12-15 min headways outside rush and about 7 min during rush.
D: Operates between 205 Street and Coney Island via Concourse Express, CPW/6th Ave Express, Brighton Local. D operates 24/7. D Concourse Express AM rush to Manhattan, PM rush from Manhattan.
K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave via 8th Ave/Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Chambers Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M runs to Coney Island via Brighton Local. Late nights M a shuttle between Metro. and Myrtle Ave.
N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. N express between Pacific and 59 Street. Late nights N runs local between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn via Montague Tunnel.
Q: Operates between 57 Street-7th Avenue and Brighton Beach via Broadway/Brighton Express. Operates wkdays 6:30-9:30 PM. (Note: I'm not even arguing for the Q to operate weekends or head to 179).
R: Operates between 71-Continental Ave to 95th Street via Queens Blvd. Local the entire stretch. Late nights R operates between Pacific Street and 95 Street as a local.
W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Avenue via Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy via West End Local. Operates weekdays 6:30-9:30 PM.
As for the C (as opposed to the K) being the Concourse train, that's nostalgia on my part. Otherwise, except for those on the G (and they have a legitimate gripe), who would this plan offend?
Comments as always are welcomed
(no Trojan required)
Which ones are the R32GE cars?
I kind of like the R38's current interior; wish they had done the same to the R32. However, there were more R32 than R38 to GOH, so the more spartan MKCo was no doubt more economical than the fancier GE treatemnt.
wayne
Wayne
Thanks.
Thanks.
The change actually started on the R-32 cars -- for some odd reason, the R-32As (3350-3649) had the standard lighting arrangement like the R-16 through R-36 cars, while the R-32s (3650-3949) were given both the new lighting and the modified axleflow fans, which pointed most of the air away from the people directly below and instead pushed it off to the sides at the top of the car, presumably to better circulate the hot air rising from the crowded passenger area below.
In both cases, the ideas were misguided -- the cars were much dimmer and the fans merele blew more hot air down on the passengers, as well as causing some ugly-looking soot marks to develop on the ceiling.
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st2/
---Brian
Regards,
Constantine Steffan aka Stef
---Brian
That's a promise.
I will commence in repairs on the R-17 starting this Wednsday, when I return to BERA with John S. I'll be replacing cracked windows....
---Brian
Seriously, we can always use the help, e.g. if you would prefer to get realy dirty we are starting to take all the door motors out of the Lo-V.
The first one has been serviced & doesn't leak air anymore !
Thanks to everyone for another great SubTalk day!
Just a suggestion... next time lets have it on a day where it isn't raining :-)
But seriously I know what the problem was, I didn't bring my rain coat
< grin >
BTW, we'll have to speak to Todd about getting some better weather next time around. :)
Yay.
wayne
---Brian
He was lucky he was in New York. That kind of thing results in a death sentence here in Los Angeles.
Tom
Do you remember what happened when Orange NJ Officer Joyce Carnegie was murdered? The police literally turned Orange upside down; four suspects were rounded up. One was beaten to death, another died in police custody amid unclear circumstances, one got the crap kicked out of him but lived to tell about it, and the fourth was the murderer.
On the East Coast, as in LA, you kill a cop, your life is over.
That kind of thing went out with the ‘50s in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles police (and other departments in the area) are too professional for that type of thing to happen, but the prime directive is go home at the end of the shift, and if someone is trying to take an officer's gun, any other officer nearby will not wait to see who wins the struggle before taking decisive action.
Tom
Ultimately, was referring to the fact that the PD will hunt you down to the ends of the earth, not that street executions will always occur. There have been cases when banana republics have had foreign aid withheld temporarily while they arranged to arrest and extradite...
"The Los Angeles police (and other departments in the area) are too professional for that type of thing to happen,"
Especially Rampart CRASH. :0)
Rodney King, LA Police Brutality, nuff said
This my friend is self-defense. Of course an police would fired his/her weapon if the perpetrator attempt to grab his/her. I'm not a police office, but I can tell that the life of a police man or police woman can be in great dangered in any sec any min and any day if he/she can't protect him/herself from harm way. I praised that the NYPD has his/her job in protecting themselve and the public. If that perpetrator from yesterday indeed gotten the officer gun. Anyone of us at the station would have been killed or injured. This is life and death situation. I still shaken up after what happen yesterday. With tight securities, I can't be 100% sure that I will be safe tommorrow. No one will know what will happen to them tommorrow. Me and those 100 of people could have been in real danger if NYPD didn't act fast enough. There is NO Guarenteed that any of us will be safe. Don't forget the Nation's terror alert is still at orange. Who knows? Maybe a devil's circus freak from psyc ward can strike our lives at any time.
It was a horrible experience, but that and a slightly bad experience in my late teens at New Lots Ave on the 3 where some "kids" flashed a knife at me were the only bad things that ever happened. That one was over quick because the T/O entered the train and they just walked out. Not bad for many years of riding the subway, and much of it was in the 80's. The 90's were fine - never a problem.
I agree that it isn't wise to throw a punch at an officer, but if the reason is unknown, how do you know it was stupid?
He/she was your boy/girlfriend and you'd found out he/she had been cheating on you... either that or he/she was your boy/girlfriend and you had a thing about handcuffs.
They were disciplined, but I don't know the details.
Not that it's really a reason per se, but I would imagine that a certain percentage of assaults on police officers are done by emotionally disturbed people who probably have little awareness of what they're doing.
You could make the same point about age or sex.
The point is "a black man in his 20s clobbered an officer" sounds a lot more reliable and normal than "someone clobbered an officer". The details may not matter, but do not indicate any unfair discrimination. There is a difference between neutral descriptors and bigotry.
Remarkably, the one area in which bigotry seems to persist is age. No-one would think of putting up a sign saying "No blacks" or "No women", but "no under-25s" seems to be more socially acceptable.
Maybe you should make more of a deal of the offender's age being mentioned than his ethnicity.
This is not necessarily bigotry. It is legal and appropriate to discriminate by age in certain circumstances. We don't give children access to material or activities they are not emotionally mature to handle; we do not give driver's licenses to people below a certain age; we do not allow minors to conclude contracts because they cannot be held responsible for them; people under 21 are not allowed to enter establishments which serve alcohol; and people under 18 cannot vote.
One can argue the merits o each situation, but, in general, much of this is not bigotry at all. So long as there is a good chance the person in question will reach the age of majority, he/she will have access to those things which he/she does not now.
The real bigotry in age comes in when people of a certain race or ethnicity, sexual orientation, or a particular gender are not allowed to reach the age of majority (because they are murdered or denied healthcare for example).
I've got an example of discrimination for you. Seniors are allowed to ride the subway for half-fare regardless of income, indeed poverty rates among the elderly are lower than among other age groups.
Ugh. Don't get me started on how senior citizens have their needs unfairly met. Everyone in D.C. is terrified of the AARP. Gonna get interesting when the baby boomers hit the age when their eligible for social security, and we Gen X'ers say "you can't have everything you want".
If that really (as opposed to in puritanical perception) depended on age, the driving test would be superfluous (any real failings would be shown up on the test anyway - the age thing is completely arbitrary and unfair, worthy more of a regime like Saddam Hussein's than either of our own). That is an excellent example of age bigotry.
Oh and by the way, no I don't drive, yes I am old enough to, and no I don't have any intention of ever driving.
people under 21 are not allowed to enter establishments which serve alcohol
A Protestant peculiarity (as with many of these age discrimination things). The Catholic countries of Europe seem to have a lot fewer problems with alcohol and they give wine to small children. Viva l'Italia! Vive la France!
and people under 18 cannot vote.
Something which is the subject of many awkward discussions over here. It has been proposed (there was a story on the BBC's website a few weeks ago) that children be given the vote in the UK, but that their legal guardians advise them how to cast that vote until the child attains the age of reason (which I believe the Church thinks is 9). Seeing as we gave any imbecile the right to vote in the UK in 1867 (before then it was Upper Class and Middle Class imbeciles), it would actually be giving votes to people with a higher IQ than some current voters.
The real bigotry in age comes in when people of a certain race or ethnicity, sexual orientation, or a particular gender are not allowed to reach the age of majority (because they are murdered or denied healthcare for example).
No it isn't - those are completely different discrimination issues.
The real horror is how you are charged full income taxes and national insurance at 16 in the UK, but have no right to a minimum wage until 18 and then at a reduced rate until 21. That is disgusting age discrimination. Also you have no rights as far as unfair dismissal goes until you've worked somewhere for 6 months, so companies are LEGALLY hiring people at below the minimum wage (which isn't really livable on in itself) then firing them simply because the government allows such discrimination based on age. This scam can NOT be defended on the grounds that these workers are an inferior quality due to their age, as it is ILLEGAL not to appoint the best applicant. Simply put, there is a massive scam here based solely on age discrimination.
No it isn't - those are completely different discrimination issues. "
Yes, it is. What I am trying to point out to you is that there really is no such thing as age bigotry, with very, very few exceptions (see bottom of my post). If some of us don't make it to the threshold age disproportionally, there is race-related or gender-related or religion-related etc. bigotry, but that's it.
"If that really (as opposed to in puritanical perception) depended on age, the driving test would be superfluous (any real failings would be shown up on the test anyway - the age thing is completely arbitrary and unfair, worthy more of a regime like Saddam Hussein's than either of our own)."
Nonsense. We don't have the resources to adequately supervise or regulate 10 year olds driving cars - so we save those resources for when they turn 17, or whatever.
"Seeing as we gave any imbecile the right to vote in the UK in 1867 (before then it was Upper Class and Middle Class imbeciles), it would actually be giving votes to people with a higher IQ than some current voters."
So what? An imbecile at 25 was probably an imbecile at 15, so you would be no more inclined to let them vote before majority, either. And if someone is sharp and perceptive at 16, and you feed him/her, send them to school, etc. they'll still be sharp and perceptive at 18 when they can vote. They've lost nothing.
"The real horror is how you are charged full income taxes and national insurance at 16 in the UK, but have no right to a minimum wage until 18 and then at a reduced rate until 21. That is disgusting age discrimination"
You may have a point there - but it's the only place you really make any sense.
I did not finish typing, and submitted my post without editing.
An "imbecile" still has the right to participate in government that governs him/her. And the right to vote is central to that.
Regardless, the right to vote and the power to make legally binding choices (the age of majority) go together. Thus, one does not vote if one does not bear responsibility for it.
No, that is what you would like to believe. These are two different things. America is a country founded upon ideals, including equality, and Americans are brought up to believe that America fulfils these ideals: it didn't for a very long time to women, blacks and slaves and it still doesn't to the young and to a lesser extent the old. Wake up. America shares this flaw with most civilised countries.
And if someone is sharp and perceptive at 16, and you feed him/her, send them to school, etc. they'll still be sharp and perceptive at 18 when they can vote. They've lost nothing.
But the country has. That is a clear example of the country depriving itself through unfairly discriminatory practice. The wrong person might get elected.
An imbecile at 25 was probably an imbecile at 15,
At actually follows better the other way - an imbecile at 15 will be an imbecile at 25 and an imbecile at 65. It's one of the strongest arguments against democracy.
We don't have the resources to adequately supervise or regulate 10 year olds driving cars
Bollocks. They'd mostly fail (that's for the few with the audacity to try). Driving instructors would make a lot of money. GDP goes up. Everyone is happy. Doomsday doesn't happen, whatever you want to think.
"At actually follows better the other way - an imbecile at 15 will be an imbecile at 25 and an imbecile at 65. It's one of the strongest arguments against democracy."
Indeed. So perhaps America should abolish the Constitution and invite direct rule from England again. :0)
"But the country has. That is a clear example of the country depriving itself through unfairly discriminatory practice. The wrong person might get elected."
A nice fantasy you have there.
We don't have the resources to adequately supervise or regulate 10 year olds driving cars
"Bollocks. They'd mostly fail (that's for the few with the audacity to try). Driving instructors would make a lot of money. GDP goes up. Everyone is happy. Doomsday doesn't happen, whatever you want to think."
You missed the point entirely.
I wouldn't wish direct rule from England on my worst enemy! Talk about a country which is a succession of bodges and failures.
We don't have the resources to adequately supervise or regulate 10 year olds driving cars
You have no evidence to that effect. In fact the workings of a capitalist economy rather suggest the opposite.
You missed the point entirely.
Unless you are proposing that the USA become either Socialistic in its economics or Undemocratic in its politcs, you do not have a point. According to the book I've just been reading, "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore, it looks like the latter may not be that outrageous a thought.
Vlad
In some ways it's even worse in the United States. There's no reduced minimum wage for young workers, although the idea pokes up from time to time. What is quite unfair is that the majority of workers are what as known as "at will" employees, meaning they can be fired at any time for any reason. While firing a worker for reasons of discrimination (age, race, gender etc.) is prohibited, that is very difficult to prove. So basically, most workers have no protection against unfair dismissal at all, regardless of tenure.
Union membership does provide some protection for employees. I know, I have made a number of anti-union comments, and in most respects they're bad, but I'll admit that they do provide a measure of protection.
I agree - as long as government remains weak, unions as an even more flawed demotic movement will have a role in covering the government's flaws in protecting it's own people. Why do all politicians today believe in weak government?
What? Your comments or the unions? 8-)
Sorry...couldn't resist.
Peace,
ANDEE